Wednesday Volume 519 24 November 2010 No. 78

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 24 November 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 247 24 NOVEMBER 2010 248

does the Minister think that it was wise for the Department House of Commons for Education to hand out a £500,000 contract to the New Schools Network, an organisation led by a former Wednesday 24 November 2010 associate of the Secretary of State? Was that contract fully compliant with all the relevant tendering regulations?

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Mr Maude: I certainly do not know the details of that procurement, but I am confident that it would have PRAYERS followed all the rules to the letter.

Public Sector Mutuals [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] 2. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): What progress he has made on the establishment of Oral Answers to Questions public sector mutuals. [25850]

9. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): What progress he has made on establishing public sector CABINET OFFICE mutuals. [25857]

The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude): I announced last week Public Bodies that every Department will put in place “rights to provide” for public sector workers to take over the running of 1. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) their services. The first wave of 12 pathfinder projects (Con): What steps his Department is taking to support was launched in August this year. Leading organisations in the sector, including Local Partnerships, the Employee public bodies in contracting out public services. [25849] Ownership Association and Co-operatives UK, have The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster come together to launch an information and support General (Mr Francis Maude): I announced last Wednesday service for public sector workers interested in mutualisation. that the Government are identifying a range of additional I hope that Members on both sides of the House will commercial models for public bodies wishing to contract encourage and support these worker co-operatives. out services, such as joint ventures and public sector worker mutuals, alongside traditional outsourcing options. James Morris: Many public sector organisations and A major barrier to this is the extremely cumbersome employees in my constituency are interested in this idea. procurement process left behind by the previous Will my right hon. Friend clarify whether he sees these Government. An average process here typically takes policies applying more to local community organisations, almost twice as long as it does in Germany. This makes or whether he envisages organisations on the scale of, tendering less competitive and effectively excludes many say, NHS trusts being able to take on mutual status? smaller suppliers and social and voluntary enterprises. We are taking steps to streamline the process. Mr Maude: I do not think that we should be prescriptive about how large or small, or how local or broad, these Stephen Phillips: One of the problems with the delivery co-operatives could be. The pathfinders range enormously of public services in the past was the previous Government’s in size: I think that the smallest has only three potential focus on delivery through either private contractors or employees or members, while the largest has 1,100, and existing local and central Government bodies. Many it is possible to imagine them being even larger. I hope public sector workers were thus prevented from suggesting that groups of public sector workers from right across innovative ideas for the more efficient and cost-effective the sector will consider whether this could be a good delivery of services. How will they now be encouraged route forward for them to take, and we will make it as to come forward with their ideas? easy as possible for them to take it.

Mr Maude: We have already encouraged them to Alun Cairns: What action is the Minister taking to come forward with ideas. As part of the spending protect the interests of innovative public sector workers challenge that we launched in the summer, we invited who come up with exciting ideas for public sector public sector workers to come up with ideas to save mutuals, but whose senior management do not support money while protecting front-line services, and 65,000 them because it might not be in their personal interest of them did so, indicating a huge amount of pent-up to do so? frustration. We are now encouraging as many of them as possible who are interested not only in having ideas Mr Maude: It is possible that such a situation could but in putting them into effect to form worker co-operatives come about, which is why we have encouraged the to spin out of the public sector while continuing to organisations that I mentioned to set up the information deliver services. and support service for groups of public sector workers. We will also establish a challenge group, into which this Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): Given that there are service can feed thoughts and suggestions. If there are strict procurement rules designed to demonstrate probity concerns that middle and senior managers are obstructing and value for money, and to avoid political interference, the right of public sector workers to form these 249 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 250 co-operatives, I hope that people will feed them directly Mr Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman to us, through the challenge group, so that we can take wants to be reassured that that will not be the case. We the appropriate steps. are grateful to him for so indicating—[Interruption.] Order. That is the end of it. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- op): Does the Minister accept that there is a fundamental Mr Hurd: As my hon. Friend knows, there will be difference between a worker co-operative and an cases where large-scale contracts are more efficient, but organisation that is fully mutual? Can he assure me that we want to make sure that voluntary and community there will be a democratic process within public sector sector organisations do not feel excluded from them mutuals and that there will be a membership element and are treated fairly by the prime contractors within to it? any consortiums. The White Paper will address that issue. In addition, the private Member’s Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris Mr Maude: We do not have a dogmatic view about White), which the Government support, will place a exactly what form these should take. I hope there will be firmer requirement on commissioners to consider social considerable innovation. Some will want to form joint value in their buying decisions. That will help. I should ventures with outside providers; in other entities, be delighted to meet representatives of the local voluntary the Government or whatever other state agency is the and community sector organisations in the constituency commissioning body might want to retain a stake in the of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds organisation. There will be strong democratic worker (Mr Ruffley) and I extend the same offer to all hon. involvement in many of them, but the key element is a Members. degree of ownership by the employees themselves. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): May I probe the am sure that the Minister will agree that bidding processes Minister further on what specific advice and support and the awarding of Government contracts must be the Government are offering to organisations that wish transparent and fair—and seen to be so. Does he therefore to become mutuals or co-operatives? think it good practice that his Department awarded a huge £4.1 million contract to a charity founded by his Mr Maude: A range of advice is available. The policy adviser, Lord Wei? Will the noble Lord consider 12 pathfinder projects are supported by organisations his position as a result of this matter? that are able to provide support—for example, Co-operatives UK and the John Lewis Partnership, which have enormous Mr Hurd: I am not entirely sure to which contract the experience in this area. The advice and support service hon. Lady refers, but if she means the recently announced that these organisations are putting together will be able awarding of contracts to 12 providers of the national directly to channel support and advice from organisations citizen service, that process was run in an impeccably such as the Employee Ownership Association. That transparent way. We are absolutely delighted with the should help organisations to find the right advice for outcome and with the prospects for that programme. the particular circumstances of a particular group of workers. Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): On probity and transparency, what puts most charitable organisations Government Contracts off is the time, the expense and the long drawn-out nature of the process. Is the Minister going to do something about that? 3. Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): What steps he is taking to increase the participation of Mr Hurd: Absolutely. That is a hugely important voluntary and charitable bodies in bidding processes point. Everything I have learned over the past two years for Government contracts. [25851] suggests that for many organisations the whole process of applying for and reporting public money is a bureaucratic The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick nightmare—often totally disproportionate to the sums Hurd): The Office for Civil Society will shortly publish a involved. Changing that is fundamental to the reform consultation on what changes need to be made to of commissioning and procurement that we are commissioning to make it easier for voluntary and undertaking. community sector organisations to compete for public contracts. The results will feed into a wider public Voluntary Sector Organisations services reform White Paper, which is due to published early in the new year. 4. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the likely effects of the Mr Ruffley: I am grateful to the Minister. On outcomes of the comprehensive spending review on 13 November, I chaired a summit meeting of the chief voluntary sector organisations over the spending review executives of 14 significant third sector bodies in Suffolk period. [25852] to discuss the big society and Suffolk county council’s radical new strategic direction programme to contract The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver out local public services. The third sector bodies were Letwin): Our programme of structural reform is opening extremely keen to bid for these contracts, but they were up huge new opportunities for all sorts of voluntary concerned that unscrupulous, large corporate prime and community sector organisations to take part in the contractors and a very crude payment-by-results regime delivery of public services. In the hon. Lady’s constituency, could fatally damage their cash flow— City Health Care Partnerships—which, I understand, is 251 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 252 an employee-led spin-out from the health service—is community sector operators. I expect the right hon. providing health visitors, district nurses, pain clinics Gentleman to see an expansion, not a reduction, in the and a range of other services. That is an admirable sector and its activities. example of what can be done, and we hope that it will be replicated in other parts of the country. Government Contracts

Diana Johnson: What message would the Minister 5. Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): What send to the Hull Families Project, which is based in plans he has to encourage opportunities for small and Orchard Park, given that £160 million of regeneration medium-sized enterprises to apply for Government funds were stripped from that community on Monday, contracts. [25853] and to the Hull Churches Home from Hospital Service, which fears that the local authority and the NHS will 12. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What cut its budget? What message does that send about the plans he has to increase engagement of small coalition Government’s real approach to disadvantaged businesses in public procurement processes. [25860] communities? 14. Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Mr Letwin: The hon. Lady knows that the coalition What plans he has to encourage opportunities for small Government have protected the NHS budget, for the and medium-sized enterprises to apply for Government very reason that we regard it as a priority. She may also contracts. [25862] know that the public health White Paper, which is on the way, will announce our proposals—already well 15. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What foreshadowed—on the health premium. The health plans he has to encourage opportunities for small and premium will specifically benefit those who are improving medium-sized enterprises to apply for Government public health locally, and will organise funding so that it contracts. [25863] most benefits the most disadvantaged parts of the country, thus dealing with the precise points that the hon. Lady The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver raises. Letwin): On 1 November, my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office announced a package of Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): There are measures to help small and medium-sized enterprises to increasing pressures on independent citizens advice bureaux obtain public sector contracts. They include halving the throughout the country. Debt management issues are length and breadth of the pre-qualification process for an ever-present feature of their work. What assurances small firms, and creating a single website called Contracts can the Minister give that expertise and resources will Finder, where small businesses can locate all the contracts be available to CABs locally so that they can undertake that are available from Government. their invaluable work? Michael Ellis: Given that 95% of people in my Mr Letwin: The coalition Government certainly agree constituency are employed by small and medium-sized that citizens advice bureaux form a fantastically important enterprises and that some companies would relish the part of the fabric of the big society and support for opportunity of a fair playing field in bidding for people locally, and I believe that Members throughout Government contracts, will my right hon. Friend make the House recognise the value of their services. We will suitable changes to the bureaucratic burden that they support them in every possible way, and I should be currently bear, thanks to the previous Government, as delighted to talk to the hon. Gentleman about any soon as possible? specific issues in his constituency. Mr Letwin: The short answer is yes—and abundantly Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I so. The measures I just described are intended to do believe that strengthening civil society is a common that. In addition, we are looking at the causes of delay cause between us. Labour is certainly very proud that in the procurement process because, as was mentioned the sector doubled when we were in government. Now, earlier, that is often part of the problem. We are also however, charities are saying that they face cuts of a requiring suppliers to pay their subcontractors within little over £3 billion during the next couple of years. 30 days, and encouraging them to pass those payments How many jobs does the Minister expect to be lost in right down the line to the smallest businesses. charities that do not have Conservative advisers at their helms or on their boards? To the untrained eye it seems Julian Smith: These are great measures for small that, worryingly, some charities are now more equal business, but may I impress upon the ministerial team the than others. need to move forward with them now, because British small business is desperate for access to these contracts? Mr Letwin: The right hon. Gentleman is well aware So—please, please, please—get on with it now. that more than three quarters of charities receive no Government money, and therefore will not be affected. Mr Letwin: I am happy to be able to tell my hon. Friend He ignores the opportunities presented by the new that that is precisely what we are doing. That is why we public service reforms. The Work programme, for example, are publishing every contract for tender of over £10,000 is creating huge opportunities for the voluntary and on a website, enabling people to see the opportunities. It community sector, and there will be increased funds is also why we have put in every Department’s business from that source. There will be more funds for drug plan the requirement to report on the percentage by prevention, rehabilitation and recovery, and for the value of contracts they have let to small and medium-sized rehabilitation of prisoners. Payment-by-results contracts enterprises. We shall measure the extent to which will be available for a huge range of new voluntary and Departments fulfil that requirement. [Interruption.] 253 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 254

Mr Speaker: Order. For a start, there is too much Government was not adequate. We are introducing new noise in the Chamber. Secondly, the Minister is, no measures to make it more transparent, and the entire doubt because of his natural courtesy, looking back at structures of our payment by results contracts will be the person by whom he has been questioned, but he totally transparent and in line with the spirit, as well as must address the Chamber so we can all hear him. the letter, of the compact.

Damian Collins: Will the Minister consider organising Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Will an event or exhibition at which small businesses could this include Scottish enterprises? show what they can offer to Government procurement? Perhaps we could have a street fair in Downing street, Mr Letwin: Of course. If the Scottish Government and invite people out of their offices to come and see for take the correct measures, it will apply in Scotland; and themselves? in the UK as a whole, and in England in particular, we will make sure there is transparency and that the compact Mr Letwin: I cannot offer my hon. Friend a street fair is totally observed regardless of where the contractors in Downing street, but I can certainly promise that we come from. will take up his suggestion of looking into ways of enabling small businesses to bring home to those responsible Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): The cuts in public for procurement just what a valuable contribution they expenditure will put enormous pressure on construction make. industry firms, and the smaller and medium-sized firms will be particularly badly hit. What are the Government Jason McCartney: Perhaps we could have a street fair going to do to protect those companies so that when the in Colne Valley. SMEs in my constituency will certainly economy improves they will still be there to do the welcome the measures, which will make it easier for construction that is needed? them to do business with the Government, but can the Minister assure them that the process will be more Mr Letwin: The greatest protection for small and accountable and transparent? medium-sized enterprises in the construction sector and elsewhere is, of course, a macro-economic framework Mr Letwin: Yes, indeed, I can; in fact everything I that enables them to survive the recession, prosper and have been describing tends to that end. We are going to grow. That is why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor make sure SMEs know what contracts are available; we has taken the steps that have led the world in providing are going to make sure they get a proper account of a solid macro-economic framework and low interest what is awarded; and we are going to make sure that rates that enable— Departments are held to account in awarding to SMEs. We want transparency all the way through the process Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the right hon. because that is what will drive Government to let contracts Gentleman. I call Mr David Amess. to SMEs. Consultancy Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab): Now that Lord Young has gone, 6. Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): What does the Minister agree that SMEs have never had it so estimate he has made of the change in his Department’s good in respect of their share of Government procurements spending on consultancy between 2009-10 and 2010-11. given the scale of cuts announced in the spending [25854] review? The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Mr Letwin: Lord Young has resigned. My personal General (Mr Francis Maude): The Government have cut view is that the longest and deepest recession since the the previous Government’s profligate spending on war, and the vast fiscal deficits that the Labour party consultancy. In the first six months of this financial bequeathed to us, have left not only SMEs but the entire year, consulting spend by the Cabinet Office fell by country, and, of course, the Government, with an enormous 42% compared with the trajectory for the previous year. challenge that we are now trying to meet. In the first six months of this year, consulting spend right across central Government fell by £350 million—or Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Some more than 50%, so it has more than halved—compared of the enterprises of relevance in this context are third with the same period last year. sector or voluntary sector organisations, for whom the operation of the compact is important. How will the Mr Amess: The whole House should welcome that Minister respond to the concerns expressed by a number news. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that proper of those organisations that the compact is not working processes were proceeded with on the procurement of and that the new compact’s accountability mechanisms the DLA Piper contract? are not robust enough? In respect of cuts, the reality is that voluntary sector organisations are first in line, and Mr Maude: I can only assume that the proper processes this Government are doing nothing to address that. were followed, because this happened under the previous Government, when the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Mr Letwin: Let us be clear: the compact is not about Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) was Minister for the Cabinet the level of expenditure but about the extent to which, Office. Any suggestions of a conflict of interest arising in each contract, the Government play fair by those from the position of the Deputy Prime Minister’s wife with whom they are contracting. We absolutely accept are wholly misplaced, because the contract was placed that the operation of the compact under the previous before he was anywhere near government. 255 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 256

Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I welcome calculation is based is £23,000, so anyone paid less than the Minister’s statement on a reduction in consultancy that will have their compensation calculated on that fees, but hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ basis. money is still being spent with these firms. Why does he not simply say no and get civil servants to do their jobs? Well-being

Mr Maude: I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s 8. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): How his robust support for this Government’s change in direction Department plans to measure and promote well-being. from that taken by the Government of whom he was a [25856] member. We believe that the incontinent use of consultants is demeaning for civil servants, who would, in many The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick cases, like to be doing this work and are very capable of Hurd): The hon. Gentlemen will know from the Budget doing it. [Interruption.] and previous statements by the Prime Minister that the Government are committed to developing broader Mr Speaker: Order. Far too many private conversations measurements of well-being to inform policy development. are taking place in the Chamber. This is very discourteous A conference tomorrow will bring together experts to and it should end. discuss how we measure and promote robust, independent measurements of subjective well-being. Civil Service Compensation Scheme Dr Huppert: I am delighted that the Government are taking this issue of well-being seriously. Does the Minister 7. Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): What recent progress agree that promoting well-being involves a focus on he has made on his proposals for reform of the civil development and understanding in schools, not just service compensation scheme. [25855] exams, on fulfilment and job satisfaction at work, not just salary, and on community and opportunity nationally, 10. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): What recent not just gross domestic product? progress he has made on his proposals for reform of the civil service compensation scheme. [25858] Mr Hurd: I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a big interest in this subject as vice-chair of the all-party The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster group. The Government take it seriously. We are taking General (Mr Francis Maude): The Superannuation Bill, forward the recommendations in the Stiglitz, Sen and which will impose caps on compensation payments and Fitoussi report and the conference tomorrow will be the permit the reform of the civil service compensation first step in deciding how we go forward to measure and scheme, is proceeding through the other place. I remain promote subjective well-being. I am sure that the hon. confident of being able to introduce a new scheme Gentleman’s view will be heard. before the House rises. Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): As part of his Claire Perry: I thank the Minister for that reply. efforts to promote well-being, will the Minister consider More than 30% of the work force in my constituency the abolition of the Independent Parliamentary Standards are employed by the public sector, given the heavy Authority? proportion of Army personnel and Ministry of Defence civil servants there. Many of the MOD civil servants are Mr Hurd: I sense that there might be some consensus members of the Public and Commercial Services union. on that in the House, but it is a subject well above my Has it come to the table and joined the negotiations, or pay grade. does it still stand alone?

Mr Maude: Sadly, despite repeated invitations, the PCS has not come forward with concrete proposals. PRIME MINISTER The other five unions engaged constructively and their proposals formed the basis for the new scheme that we The Prime Minister was asked— have developed. I am sorry that the PCS, which represents so many civil servants, particularly lower-paid civil servants, Engagements has not chosen to take part in a constructive spirit. Q1. [25834] Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Jeremy Lefroy: In my right hon. Friend’s proposals Falkirk) (Lab): If he will list his official engagements for reforming the scheme, what account is he taking of for Wednesday 24 November. the protection of the lowest paid staff in the civil service? The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in paying Mr Maude: That has been our principal concern in tribute to Guardsman Christopher Davies of 1st Battalion fashioning a new scheme. Civil servants’ average pay is the Irish Guards, who died on Wednesday 17 November lower than that in the private sector and the wider in Afghanistan. He was the 100th British soldier to die public sector, and it is right that they should be at the this year, a reminder of the high price we are paying for forefront of our concerns. The scheme that we have the vital work that is being done. Christopher was an developed, in negotiation and consultation with five of utterly professional and highly respected soldier and we the six unions, gives particular protection for them by send our deepest condolences to his families and his deeming that the salary on which their compensation loved ones. 257 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 258

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues I also join the Prime Minister in expressing deep and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I sadness about the deaths of the miners who were tragically shall have further such meetings later today. killed in the underground explosion in New Zealand, including the two miners from Scotland. I know from Michael Connarty: I associate myself and my colleagues my constituency the risks that miners take when working with the condolences that the Prime Minister passed on underground and our hearts go out to the miners’ and I also express sympathies to the families of those families and friends. involved in the New Zealand mining disaster, two of I also thank the whole House for the good wishes on whom come from Scotland. the birth of my second son, Samuel. In particular, I Does the Prime Minister share my concerns that, thank the Prime Minister and his wife Samantha for although good restaurants pass on 100% of tips to their their very generous gifts—[[HON.MEMBERS: “Ooh!”] I staff, some are using bogus tronc or kitty schemes to shall keep the gifts secret. I also thank the Deputy avoid paying national insurance while ripping off up to Prime Minister. 14% of their staff’s tips? Will he personally stand up for I want to turn to a decision that has been made in fair tips and agree to meet me and a delegation of advance of the education White Paper, on which there hospitality workers to discuss the need for the promised will be a statement at 12.30 pm. Is the Prime Minister one-year review of the operation of the law on tips? aware of the deep concern among schools, families and leading sportsmen and women about the Education The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is entirely Secretary’s decision to take away all the funding from right to mention the tragic accident at the New Zealand the highly successful school sport partnerships? Will the mine. What has happened is immensely sad. I spoke to Prime Minister overrule the Education Secretary and the New Zealand Prime Minister, John Key, this morning reverse the decision? and I know that the thoughts of the whole House will be with the 29 miners who lost their lives and with their The Prime Minister: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman families—particularly Peter Rodger from Perth and back and I congratulate him again on the birth of baby Malcolm Campbell from St Andrews. I know that our Samuel. I very much know what it is like—the noise, the high commission and the consular officials are in touch mess, the chaos and trying to get the children to shut up. with their families and doing everything to help at what I am sure that it was lovely to have two weeks away from must be an impossibly difficult time. it all. He is very welcome. The hon. Gentleman has been a long-standing On the point about sports funding, in the White campaigner on the issue of tips and has done some Paper that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State excellent work on it. It is right that tips should be for Education will announce later we are taking a very distributed to staff and should not be used to top up the different approach. We are taking a lot of the specific minimum wage. They should not be diverted in any way. grants that were spent on specific subjects and putting The law is very clear: tips must not be used to back up them into basic school funding. That means that the the minimum wage and enforcement officers should schools budget is going to go up by £3.6 billion over this take action to ensure that that does not happen. The Parliament. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman hon. Gentleman should meet Business, Innovation and that what we experienced over the last decade was a lot Skills Ministers and they can look at the important of money being put into school sport but without code of practice that was produced and ensure that the seeing a lot of progress. [Interruption.] We did not see a hospitality industry is meeting it. lot of progress. Let me give him one figure: the number of schools offering rugby, hockey, netball and gymnastics actually fell under the previous Government. That approach David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Will my right did not work and it is time for a new one. hon. Friend take steps to sort out the mess in Parliament square, particularly ahead of 29 April? Does he think Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister will come to that it is reasonable that visitors to London from home live to regret that answer, because he should not believe and abroad should be faced with a no-go area surrounded the nonsense that the Education Secretary is telling him by a campsite? about this. Since 2002, we have seen an increase from 25% to 90% in the number of kids doing more than two The Prime Minister: I entirely agree with my hon. hours of sport a week. We have seen 1 million more kids Friend. I will always defend the right to protest and the doing competitive sport between schools and—I would right to protest peacefully. It seems to me entirely fair have thought the Prime Minister would support this—we that people should protest, but I have never seen why have a network of 200,000 volunteers from the school they are able to sleep in Parliament square. I have had sport partnerships. I say to him: that sounds like the big many discussions with my right hon. Friend the Home society to me. Why is he undermining it? Secretary, the Mayor of London and the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. I think 29 April is too far a The Prime Minister: Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman deadline by which to get this problem sorted out. what we have ended up with after 10 years of that approach. Only two in every five pupils play any competitive Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I start by sport regularly in their school. That is a terrible record. joining the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Guardsman Only one in five children plays regular competitive Christopher Davies of 1st Battalion the Irish Guards. sport against other schools. The approach that Labour He died providing heroic service to our country, like all took for all those years did not work. The time for our other troops. We pay tribute to him and send our endlessly telling head teachers what to do and how to deepest condolences to his family. spend their money is over. It is time to trust head 259 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 260 teachers, give them the budget and let them decide how Border Agency staff. They do a fantastic job, and I to make sure that we have great competitive sport want to help them go on doing it. I shall look carefully within school and between schools. at what the hon. Gentleman says—[Interruption.] The answer is that what we are going to do is make sure that Edward Miliband: If the Prime Minister will not take immigration work is done in Northern Ireland rather it from me, perhaps he will take it from Jo Phillips, the than at Stranraer, but I shall look very carefully at that school sports co-ordinator in Chipping Norton school to make sure that the system is working. in his constituency. In a letter to me, she said: “I am devastated to witness the potential demise of this legacy Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): Does with the sweep of Mr Gove’s pen. I wish that he had spoken to my right hon. Friend agree that a proper and well me, the teachers in our partnership, our students, our parents and planned international rescue plan for the Irish economy our local sports clubs and providers”. would be far less damaging to the wider economy of I say to the Prime Minister: this is frankly a daft this country than some of the possible dire alternatives? decision that he should U-turn on as soon as possible. I am afraid that it sums up this Education Secretary: The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very high-handed, incompetent and unfair. Why does the good point. Every man, woman and child in Ireland Prime Minister not get a grip on it? spends more than £3,000 each year on British goods and services. Our economies are very intertwined—very The Prime Minister: I have to tell the right hon. interlinked—and it is right that we take part in helping Gentleman that last year the proportion of 11 to 15-year- to ensure stability and growth in the Irish economy. olds playing sport went down. That was after all the money that Labour spent and all the initiatives. It Q4. [25837] Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire simply did not work. What we are doing is protecting North) (Lab): In the context of “We are all in this the playing fields under our planning rules and taking together”, could the Prime Minister explain why he back the vetting and barring scheme that stopped so proposes to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board, which many people from taking part in school sport. Again, protects some of the poorest workers in the country, there is a fundamental difference. Labour’s approach while at the same time he is protecting from public was specific grant after specific grant, wrapping teachers scrutiny the salaries and bonuses of major bankers in and schools in red tape and not making any progress. this country? We take a different approach: putting the money into the schools budget, growing it by £3.6 billion, holding a The Prime Minister: We have looked very carefully at schools Olympics and promoting school sport. That is all the quangos and tried to work out which ones need the way that will make a real difference. to stay and which ones need to go. That was long overdue. We have a minimum wage and a tax credit Q2. [25835] Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): May system, and there are so many quangos that are not I ask my right hon. Friend whether, during the adding value that it makes sense to give taxpayers value international negotiations regarding the economic and scrap the ones that are not doing anything. situation in Ireland, at any point anyone suggested that countries with large deficits should slow down the rate Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Will my right hon. at which they are reducing them? Friend explain why at every turn—the City of London, the investigation order, economic governance of Europe The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend asks a very good and the stabilisation mechanism—the coalition Government question. In the G20, the G8 and European Councils, under his premiership are acquiescing in more European there is absolutely nobody who thinks that if they have integration, not less? And there is no repatriation of a big budget deficit they should do nothing about it. powers. The only people who seem to be taking that view are the Opposition, who now have a new approach. They are The Prime Minister: It will not surprise my hon. having a policy review, and the Leader of the Opposition Friend to hear that I think he is wrong. Under the says: approach of a previous Government, we would have caved in when the European Parliament asked for a “In terms of policy…we start with a blank page.” 6% budget increase. We have not, and we have fought That would be a great help at the G20. that increase—[Interruption.]

Q3.[25836] Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the Prime Minister’s (Lab): UK Border Agency funding to support immigration views about the views of the hon. Member for Stone and related work at the ports unit in Stranraer and (Mr Cash), and I hope the House does. Cairnryan ceased yesterday, with the commitment that all such work would be dealt with in Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister: Also, we will make sure that Without additional resources at that location, I believe future bail-out mechanisms should not involve non-euro that that cannot work. If in the coming months the countries such as Britain having to make those ports unit in my constituency does not see a reduction contributions. That is something we will secure in Europe. in immigration-related cases, will the Prime Minister revisit the issue? Edward Miliband: Does the Prime Minister agree that just as it is right to disclose top salaries in the public The Prime Minister: What we do at our borders is sector, so too it must be right to require banks to incredibly important. I spent some time yesterday with disclose the number of employees paid salary and bonuses the Home Secretary at Heathrow airport, meeting UK of more than £1 million? 261 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 262

The Prime Minister: Yes, we do agree with that. The Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): I am sure last Government commissioned the Walker review. David that the Prime Minister is aware of the Movember Walker has carried out that review and made his report. campaign, in which men grow moustaches for the month He has made it very clear that he thinks we should make of November to advance awareness of prostate cancer. progress with the transparency agenda at the same time Will he join me in congratulating the almost half a as other European countries. That is a view we think million people worldwide, many in the UK, who are on should be taken into account. track to raise £25 million this year in sponsorship? Given how good we look, will he consider joining us Edward Miliband indicated dissent. next year? The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but the fact is that he was part of the Government The Prime Minister: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman who appointed David Walker. I would rather listen to on such a magnificent specimen—the moustache that someone who knows something about banking than he has grown. It is absolutely right to raise awareness of someone who knows nothing about anything. prostate cancer. The campaign is a very good charitable move. I can see that some of his neighbours along the Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister will have to do Bench have followed his example, as have some of the better than that. He is demanding transparency— people in my protection team. They are all to be rightly—from the public sector, but unless we have commended for raising awareness about a real killer transparency in the banking system, shareholders cannot that we need to do more about. exercise their duty to clamp down on unacceptable bonuses. The Business Secretary issued a statement on Q5. [25838] Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) Monday, when news of the climbdown was in the (DUP): I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to offing. He said: Guardsman Christopher Davies who, sadly, lost his life “Transparency is key to creating confidence in any commitment in Afghanistan. The Prime Minister will be aware of from our banks to behave more responsibly on pay and bonuses.” problems with post-traumatic stress disorder suffered Why will the Prime Minister not listen to his Business by many service personnel and veterans across the Secretary? United Kingdom. Will he now give a commitment to implement in full the report prepared by his hon. Friend The Prime Minister: We agree with the approach of the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), transparency. That is why the Walker review was set up, which makes key recommendations to help our veterans and that is why we should examine what Walker has to and service personnel with that dreadful condition? say. I will take lectures from the right hon. Gentleman about lots of things, but I will not when it comes to the banks. He was in the Treasury when the previous The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman Government did not regulate the banks properly. He for his question. We are implementing in full the report was in the Treasury when they set up the tripartite of my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire system that failed. He was in the Treasury when they (Dr Murrison). He did an excellent report, particularly had the biggest boom and the biggest bust. He was in about mental health issues and how we need to invest in the Treasury when they gave Fred Goodwin—the man them, both in the forces and in our NHS, and we are who broke the Royal Bank of Scotland—a knighthood. carrying out those recommendations. I would go back to the blank sheet of paper, if I were you. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Can the Prime Minister inform the House how much foreign students Edward Miliband: I will compare my record in the contribute to the economy, how many jobs they create Treasury any time to the Prime Minister’s—he was by being here, and how much their fees support funding there on Black Wednesday. for higher education for domestic students? Is this not just typical of the Prime Minister? Before the election, he promised “a day of reckoning” for the The Prime Minister: Foreign students make a big bankers. We passed the legislation. It is there for him to contribution to British universities and to the British implement. It is not very much to ask. All that the economy, but the Home Secretary and I went to Heathrow legislation requires is that the banks publish the number yesterday to talk with UK Border Agency staff, and the of people—not even their names, as the Chancellor one thing that they all raised was the problem of bogus used to call for—getting pay and bonuses above £1 million. students coming to the UK—people arriving at our It does not make sense to wait for Europe. Why does the borders who have a visa and who are claiming to go and Prime Minister not show a lead and just get it done? do an MA or a BA, but who cannot speak English. The The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman says problem is that Border Agency staff cannot stop them, that he wants to contrast his record in the Treasury. because they already have the visa. I am convinced, as I [Interruption.] Yes, let us remind people that when he have said at the Dispatch Box before, that we can was in the Treasury the Government built the biggest control immigration properly by cutting down on bogus budget deficit of any G20 country. We had the biggest students and people coming here without a reason, while helping the UK economy at the same time. boom and the biggest bust. It was his Government—[HON. MEMBERS: “Answer!”] It was his Government who set up the Walker review, and he should listen to what it has Q6. [25839] Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): to say. The right hon. Gentleman has nothing to say Does the Prime Minister agree that the £162 million about the deficit. He has nothing to say about regulation. sports budget is a price worth paying for the health and He is just the nowhere man of British politics. fitness of our schoolchildren? 263 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 264

The Prime Minister: Everyone wants to see an expansion The Prime Minister: The Government are very closely of competitive sport in schools, and I feel absolutely focused on that issue. It is not just about medical passionately about the issue. The fact is the approach services, as the hon. Gentleman says; it is also about we have taken for the last decade has meant that only long-term mental health needs. In the US, veterans are one in five—one in five; that is pathetic—of our children contacted every single year to check up on their mental is playing competitive sport against other schools. There health status. When we look at the mental health problems is a choice in politics: to go on with an approach that is that came out of the Falklands war, where, tragically, failing, or to make a change and do it differently. more people killed themselves after the Falklands, it is [Interruption.] They are shouting on the Opposition estimated, than died in the war, we find that we are Front Bench, because they know that their record was storing up a huge problem for the future because of the one of lots of money spent but complete failure. incredibly active service that people have seen in both Iraq and Afghanistan. We need to prepare for the Q7. [25840] Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): situation now. The Government are fully aware of that; The issue of workplace bullying is highlighted in an I am very aware of it myself. I am not sure about a article in the New Statesman this week. It states: parliamentary statement, but we do want to legislate on “Ed Miliband’s team are terrified of Ed Balls and Yvette. They the military covenant and then make sure that it goes think they’re going to…kill him…because they”— through everything that Government does.

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman will resume Q10. [25843] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Does the his seat immediately. That question has got nothing Prime Minister, like the shadow Chancellor, believe whatsoever to do with Government policy. that the 50p tax rate should be temporary?

Q8. [25841] Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): If the The Prime Minister: Yes, I agree with the shadow Prime Minister is so keen to put a cap on immigration, Chancellor. The interesting question is whether he agrees why did he earlier state that he gave his 100% backing with the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the to Turkey joining the EU? Surely he knows that most Opposition has two policies on tax, the graduate tax immigration to Britain comes from the EU. Does he and the 50p tax, and his shadow Chancellor does not not think that there is a stench of hypocrisy about the agree with either. Government’s immigration policy? Q11. [25844] Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) The Prime Minister: I think the hon. Gentleman is (Lab/Co-op): Before the election, the Prime Minister wrong, for a very clear reason. If we look at immigration, pledged not to cut education maintenance allowance we find that migration between European countries and and the Deputy Prime Minister pledged to vote against the UK is broadly in balance. The excess immigration tuition fees. Can the Prime Minister now explain to my all comes from outside the EU. The current figures—under 17-year-old constituent Lauren Bedford the difference the last Government—are for net migration into the between a pledge and a promise? UK of 200,000 a year, and that is 2 million people The Prime Minister: What I would say to the hon. across a decade. In our view, that is too high, it needs to Lady’s constituent is that we inherited a complete mess be cut and a cap is a very important part of that. from the previous Government. We have a choice—we can deal with it or we can end up in a situation like in Q9. [25842] Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): What Ireland and other countries of not just cutting education assessment has the Prime Minister made of Len maintenance allowance but cutting everything. We are McCluskey’s statement that going to replace it with something that is more targeted “there is no such thing as an irresponsible strike”? on those who need the money to stay on at school—that is in the best interests of her constituents and everyone else. The Prime Minister: I think he is completely and utterly wrong, and the world is in a slightly mad place Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): when someone who supports Militant Tendency can be Stepping Stones Nigeria is a children’s-based charity in elected to the largest union in the country on 17% of the Lancaster. It works with its Nigerian partners to rescue vote. Indeed, that same union basically picks the leader children who are accused of witchcraft and often, if of the Labour party and pays all his bills. It is completely they were left, would be persecuted or killed, and have wrong, and if the right hon. Member for Doncaster recently been subject to a great deal of intimidation. North (Edward Miliband) is going to be a reformer he Will my right hon. Friend ask the Foreign and had better do something about it. Commonwealth Office to do whatever it can to assist the children’s-based charities in Nigeria? Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Despite being slightly ahead of the curve in the moustache The Prime Minister: We have very close relations with stakes, may I take the Prime Minister back to an exchange Nigeria, and I am sure that the Foreign Office will be that we had in June? Further to the question from the interested in what my hon. Friend has to say. The charity right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), to which he refers does an extremely important job. much more needs to be done to help our troops who return from conflict. I know the Prime Minister is very Q12. [25845] Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) concerned about that. I am very concerned about it, (Lab): Is the Prime Minister aware that in Four Hills and I hope that more will be done. In particular, there nursing home in Ruchill in my constituency there are are so many people now returning who become homeless, some of the 60,000 people across this country whose and medical services are necessary, so will he please quality of life will be shattered because of his Government’s commit himself to making an urgent statement on the decision to remove the mobility component of disability matter before long? Time is running on. living allowance? How can he possibly justify this cruel 265 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 266 cut of either £18.95 per week or £49.85 per week to Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): Will the some of the most decent people who have paid their Prime Minister explain to me how the closure of the taxes all their lives? Identity and Passport Service information office in my constituency will enhance safety and security in this The Prime Minister: It is important that we make sure country? It is possibly going to be replaced by a risk- that disability living allowance is paid consistently to assessment system, which surely cannot be right. It people who are in hospital and to people who are in surely cannot be safe and secure. care homes, and that is what we are doing. As I understand The Prime Minister: I am very happy to look into the it, the Labour Front Bench supports this change—yes? individual case that the hon. Lady mentions and write Nod? On a previous occasion, the leader of the Labour to her, but the truth is that we are having to make savings party said that he supported our changes to disability right across the public sector, which means big changes living allowance—or is this another area where it is in the way that we do things. In each case, we should be back to the blank sheet of paper? looking at ensuring that the effect that we want is delivered Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Now that the Government by the money that we spend. We have to do that across have brought forward details of their new homes bonus, the public sector, and any Government would have to will the Prime Minister join me in applauding councils do that, but I am happy to take up her individual case. such as Rugby borough council, which is proceeding Q15. [25848] Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): The with proposals for substantial development? residents of Glossop and Tintwistle in my constituency The Prime Minister: I do think this is important. For have suffered for years due to excessive traffic. As we years, we were spending lots of money on housing but try to get the best we can from the meagre resources left not building any houses—why? Because there was no by the Labour party—[Interruption.] What words can incentive for local authorities and few incentives for the Prime Minister offer as encouragement to those house builders. We are changing that so that even residents of the possibility of a bypass in the future? though the resources are limited, a lot more house Will he or a Minister visit Tintwistle with me to see the building will go ahead. situation? Q13. [25846] Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I The Prime Minister: The Opposition do not like to am sure that the Prime Minister will agree that education hear about the mess they left this country in. Just in case is a powerful agent for social mobility. While I welcome they are in any doubt, we will be talking about the mess in principle the pupil premium, emerging details seem they have made not in five months’ time, but in five to suggest that taken together with the withdrawal of years’ time too. the education maintenance allowance, it could deter On transport expenditure, we are spending £30 billion some young people from staying on in education. Will on transport investment. That is more than the Labour he agree to meet a delegation of experts to address that party planned, and it means that there will be schemes very specific problem? that can go ahead. I wish my hon. Friend well with the work that he will be doing with the Department for The Prime Minister: I know that the right hon. Transport. Gentleman takes this extremely seriously, as do I. I have seen the letter that he has written to the Education Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): It is now nearly Secretary, who I am sure would be happy to meet him to four years since the collapse of Farepak left hundreds of discuss this. Basically, what is happening is that we are people in Makerfield and thousands of people throughout seeing per-pupil funding that is not being cut, and on the country without a Christmas. They have not yet top of that we are going to see the £2.5 billion of the received one penny in compensation or a satisfactory pupil premium. That will mean overall that the education explanation. Will the Prime Minister meet me to bring budget rises by £3.6 billion across this Parliament. That this sorry affair to a conclusion as soon as possible? is a substantial funding increase. I am sure that the The Prime Minister: I well remember the case the pupil premium will have the positive effect that the right hon. Lady mentions, and it happened at a time that hon. Gentleman wants and that I want, but I am also brought misery to many families who had saved and sure that he can look at the detail of it with the who were expecting to have a good Christmas, and did Education Secretary. not get it. It was a particularly tragic case. I will sort out Q14. [25847] Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I for her to have a meeting with the Department for have recently been meeting many charities in my Business, Innovation and Skills to see whether, as she constituency, such as Rumbles catering project and says, we can bring this sorry episode to a close. Indigo Children, many of which have expressed concern Several hon. Members rose— at the reduction of local authority funding and the time lag between the opening of the big society bank. Can Mr Speaker: Order. I call Secretary Michael Gove to the Prime Minister assure me that that big fund will be make a statement. quick and easy for those charities to access? Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) The Prime Minister: Yes, I can. The point that my (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption.] hon. Friend raises is exactly why we are introducing a Mr Speaker: Order. First, I say to the right hon. £100 million transition fund to help charities that might Gentleman that points of order come after the statement, be affected by difficult decisions by local authorities to and secondly, I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members help them through that time. That is exactly why we are who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and doing it, and I expect that we would have the support of quietly, so that we can hear the statement from Mr Secretary the whole House in doing so. Gove. 267 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 268

Schools White Paper Because we know that the biggest barrier to recruiting and retaining good people in teaching is poor pupil behaviour, we will take decisive action on discipline. 12.31 pm Unless order is maintained in the classroom, teachers cannot teach and children cannot learn, so we will make The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): it easier for teachers to impose detentions on disruptive With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to a make a pupils by abolishing the rule that requires 24-hours statement to accompany today’s publication of the coalition notice before a detention is given. Government’s White Paper on schools. We will give teachers stronger powers to search students England is fortunate that we have so many great if they bring items into school and are intent on disruption. schools, so many superb teachers and so many outstanding We will give teachers clearer rules on the use of force head teachers. Their achievements deserve to be celebrated, and we will protect them from false allegations made by and I was delighted that last week, the Prime Minister disruptive and vindictive pupils if they act to keep and I were able to meet hundreds of the very best school order. leaders in Downing street to congratulate them on their We will support schools to introduce traditional blazer- work and welcome their commitment to the academy and-tie uniforms, prefects and house systems. We will programme. prioritise action to tackle bullying, especially racist and We are fortunate indeed that our schools system has homophobic bullying, and we will make it easier for so many important strengths, but our commitment to schools to exclude disruptive children without the fear making opportunity more equal means that we cannot of seeing excluded children reinstated over their heads. shy away from confronting weaknesses. We are failing We will improve education for troubled young people to keep pace with the world’s best-performing education by bringing in new organisations to run alternative nations. In the past 10 years we have slipped behind provision for excluded pupils. other nations, going from fourth in the world for science By improving behaviour, we can then free teachers to to 14th, seventh in the world for literacy to 17th and raise standards. We will reform our national curriculum eighth in the world for mathematics to 24th. so that it is a benchmark we can use to measure ourselves against the world’s best school systems instead of a At the same time, the gulf between the opportunities straitjacket that stifles the creativity of our best teachers. available to the rich and the chances given to the poor We will slim down a curriculum that has become has grown wider. The gap between the A-level performance overloaded, over-prescriptive and over-bureaucratic by of children in independent schools and state schools stripping out unnecessary clutter and simply specifying doubled under Labour, and in the last year for which we the core knowledge in strategic subjects that every child have figures, out of a population of 80,000 children should know at each key stage. That will give great eligible for free school meals, just 40 made it to Oxford teachers more freedom to innovate and to inspire. We and Cambridge, a drop from the previous year, when will support their drive to raise standards for all by just 45 made it. Social mobility went backwards under reforming our exams. We will reform assessment in Labour, and it is the mission of this coalition Government primary schools to reduce teaching to the test and we to reverse that unhappy trend and to make opportunity will make GCSEs more rigorous by stripping out modules. more equal. Under this Government, we can become an We will make GCSE performance tables more aspirational aspiration nation once more. by judging schools on how well all students do not just If we are to make the most of the potential of every in English and maths but in science, modern languages child, we need to learn from those countries that outperform and the humanities, such as history and geography. us educationally and have more equal societies. This We will also reverse the previous Government’s decision White Paper does just that. It takes the best ideas from to downgrade the teaching of proper English by restoring the highest-performing education nations and applies the recognition of spelling, punctuation and grammar them to our own circumstances. in GCSEs. Because we know that it is great teaching The single most important lesson, which is reflected and great teachers who improve schools, we will reduce in the title of our White Paper, is the importance of the bureaucracy that holds them back and put teachers teaching. The best schools systems recruit the best at the heart of school improvement. people to teach, train them intensively in the craft of We will double the number of national leaders of teaching, continue to develop them as professionals education—outstanding head teachers with a mission throughout their career, groom natural leaders for headship to turn round underperforming schools. We will raise positions and give great heads the chance to make a the minimum standards expected of all schools, so difference. That is why we will reform and improve primaries and secondaries that fail to get students to an teacher training by establishing a new generation of acceptable level and fail to have students making decent teaching schools, which will be based on the model of progress will be eligible for intervention. We will make teaching hospitals. Outstanding schools will be showcases £110 million available to create a new endowment fund for the best in teaching practice. We will also invest in to turn these schools round, and we will introduce a doubling the number of top graduates who enter teaching reward scheme to make additional incentive payments through Teach First, and will create a new programme, available for great heads who turn round underperforming Teach Next, to attract into teaching high performers schools. from other professions. We will subsidise graduates in In our drive to improve all schools, local authorities strategic subjects such as science and maths to enter will be our indispensable partners. They will play a new teaching and create a new troops-to-teachers programme role as parents champion, making admissions fairer, so to attract natural leaders from the armed forces into the parents choose schools rather than schools choosing classroom. parents. They will act as a strong voice for the vulnerable 269 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 270

[Michael Gove] However, the Secretary of State’s overall drive is towards a two-tier education system. I support his focus by ensuring that excluded children and those with special on maths, English and science, where take-up doubled needs are properly supported, and they will be energetic since 2004, but by making the entire focus five academic champions of educational excellence. subjects, is he encouraging schools to focus only on As more and more schools become increasingly those children who have a chance of achieving that autonomous, local authorities will increasingly step back particular batch of GCSEs? Is not there a huge danger from management and, instead, provide focused leadership. that he is cementing the divide between academic and They will challenge underperformance, blow the whistle vocational qualifications, which educational professionals on weak schools and commission new provision—whether have worked so hard to remove? it be from other high-performing schools, academy The risks of the Secretary of State’s English baccalaureate sponsors or free school promoters. becoming the gold standard by which schools are judged The need for thoroughgoing reform is urgent. Our have been highlighted by the Institute for Public Policy competitors are all accelerating the pace of their education Research, which states: reforms. From America to Singapore, New Zealand to “Schools will have an incentive to focus extra resources on Hong Kong, schools are being granted greater freedom, children likely to do well in those subjects, rather than on children great teachers are being given more responsibilities, and receiving free school meals.” exams are being made more rigorous. We cannot afford Is not there a real risk that his pupil premium will not be to be left behind. spent on the children for whom it is intended? At a time In the last three years of the previous Government, when we all need to focus more on the 50% of young reform went into reverse. Schools lost freedoms, the people who do not plan to go to university, is it not the curriculum lost rigour and Labour lost its way. Now, case that he has very little to say to them today? His under this coalition Government, we are once more message is that a vocational route is second best, and travelling in the same direction as the most ambitious that is unacceptable. and progressive nations. Schools spending is rising, with Is there not a real danger that the combined effects of more money for the poorest through the pupil premium; the Secretary of State’s announcements today will be to education reform is accelerating, with one new academy create a new generation of failing schools? Is it not the created every working day; and standards are being case that some improving schools will see themselves driven up, with teachers now supported to excel as plummet down the league tables, damaging morale and never before. risking throwing progress into reverse? Many of those The programme we outline today affirms the importance are the same schools that suffered from his decisions on of teaching at the heart of our mission to make opportunity Building Schools for the Future. What hope can he give more equal. There is no profession more noble, no them today of extra support to raise standards for all calling more vital and no vocation more admirable than their children, both academic and vocational? teaching. This White Paper gives us the opportunity to The Secretary of State wants to make it easier for become the world’s leading education nation, and I schools to exclude children, but who will have the commend it to the House. responsibility of helping schools to pick up the pieces? Why is he ending the independent appeals panel for Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): May I thank the right exclusions, which ensures fairness across a local education hon. Gentleman for his statement and for his courtesy community? He has rightly placed a strong emphasis on in allowing me advance sight of the White Paper? It is teacher training, but is he not at risk of ignoring the just a shame that that happened 10 days after the advice of his experts? Ofsted said yesterday: Financial Times and the rest of the nation’s media were “There was more outstanding initial teacher education delivered given such advance sight, and that Parliament was the by higher education-led partnerships than by school-centred initial last to know. We were promised new politics, and it is teacher training partnerships and employment-based routes.” time the Government lived up to their words. Why, we might ask, is the right hon. Gentleman planning I apply two clear tests to any education policy. First, to end university-led teacher training for a schools-based will it help every school to be a good school? Secondly, model? Can he assure the House that that will not will it help every child to be the best that they can be? undermine the quality of teacher training and that it is While we welcome elements of this White Paper, I not a move simply motivated by cutting costs? But is believe that it fails those fundamental tests. It is a plan there not a much bigger contradiction? Today he lays for some children, not all children. The right hon. down prescriptive standards for teaching training, but Gentleman will need to work hard to explain how his his message just days ago to free schools and academies plan will not create a new generation of failing schools. was that they were free to employ unqualified teachers. Let me say where I think the Secretary of State is Is he not mixing his messages and trying to have it both moving in the right direction. We welcome the retention ways? of a floor target for secondary schools and his apparent All this exposes a major flaw in the right hon. change of heart on the role of targets in raising standards— Gentleman’s thinking, which is repeated throughout the building on Labour’s successful national challenge White Paper. Today he talks a good game on standards; programme. We welcome the expansion of Teach First, on any other day he says to schools that they will have which we championed in government. Labour’s legacy, the freedom not to follow them. Which is it? He sounds according to Ofsted, was confused. That is because his real focus is on potentially “the best generation of teachers ever”. damaging structural reforms and he is prioritising We share his aim to have the best in the world. We also competition above collaboration in the schools system. support anonymity for teachers who face accusations His talk on standards is undermined by his ideological from pupils and some of his moves on discipline. obsession with structures. In his rush to reform, he is 271 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 272 making mistakes that will damage our education system. However, may I express my surprise that the right He seems not to have learned from the mayhem that he hon. Gentleman thinks that children who are eligible caused with Building Schools for the Future. At the for free school meals are unlikely to do well in science, most crucial moment for sport in this country’s history, language or history GCSEs? He specifically said that on the eve of a home Olympics, why is he abandoning a schools that concentrate on raising attainment in those school sport system that the Australians have called subjects will not be spending money on children from “world-leading”? Does that not embody his approach poorer homes. Has that not been precisely the problem to education: competitive sport for the elite and forget in our education system for three generations? Is not the about the rest? automatic assumption that because someone is poor The right hon. Gentleman briefs newspapers that he they cannot aspire, precisely the problem that we need will abandon the local authority role in school funding, reform to overcome? Is not the soft bigotry of low but then tells the BBC the opposite. Did he rediscover expectations alive and well, and beating in his heart? Is localism last week, or did he cave in following a furious it not the case that when it comes to improving vocational backlash from his friends in local government? Can he education, it is this Government who are taking action? tell us today what role he envisages for local government The right hon. Gentleman asked us what we were over the long term? Will it have any powers of intervention doing, but he had three hours to read the White Paper. I in respect of free schools and academies? Is not his thought he would have noticed that we are increasing biggest mistake of all that he tells schools that their the number of technical schools and university technical budgets are protected—thereby raising expectations—by colleges; I thought he would have noticed that we are continuing to mis-sell his pupil premium policy? It is a increasing the number of studio schools, which deal con: it is not additional, as the Prime Minister said specifically with vocational education; I thought he today. Is it not the case that when schools receive their would have noticed that we have commissioned Professor budgets in a couple of weeks, many in the most deprived Alison Wolf, the world leader on the future of vocational areas will be the biggest losers and will simply not have qualifications, to overhaul the ramshackle system that the means to deliver on his fancy rhetoric today? we inherited; I thought he would have noticed that In conclusion, the right hon. Gentleman brings a thanks to the Minister for Further Education, Skills lethal mix of incompetence and ideology to this crucial and Lifelong Learning we are increasing the number of brief. Just because he believes in the teaching of history, apprenticeships by 75,000. Vocational education is it does not mean that he has to live in the past. He is in undergoing a renaissance under this Government, and danger of bringing forward a plan for a fragmented and it is typically grudging of the Labour party not to divided education system of winners and losers. He is in recognise that. danger of creating a lost generation as a result of his The right hon. Gentleman asks what we are doing for elitist education system. He sits in his ivory tower, with children who are excluded. Again, I thought he would nothing to say to young people who do not plan to go to have seen in the White Paper not only that we are university or whose hope is being cut by his Government— trialling a new proposal whereby schools take responsibility vocational studies downgraded; apprenticeships for young for the children they exclude but that he would have people frozen; the education maintenance allowance noticed in the White Paper that we are deliberately scrapped. He has a plan for some schools and some commissioning extra, additional provision for excluded children, not for all schools and all children, and that is children from a wider range of organisations, and we the fundamental flaw of his White Paper. are giving pupil referral units the chance to become academies, the chance to acquire appropriate heads, Michael Gove: I thank the shadow Secretary of State and the chance to turn round the lives of desperate for that performance. Obviously at St Aelred’s in Lancashire, children who need additional help. We have heard not a where he was educated, drama was very well taught. single word from him about what we can do to help those children, and not a single word of praise for the May I thank the right hon. Gentleman on those areas dedicated people who do so much to help them. where he agrees? I thank him for his support for ensuring a consensus in the House on the importance of floor The right hon. Gentleman asked me about competition standards. It is important that we also recognise that, as rather than collaboration. Everywhere in the White well as having clear levels of attainment, we will be Paper collaboration is incentivised, with more money judging schools on how well all children progress. The for great head teachers who want to work with one change that we will be making to the way in which underperforming schools, more opportunities for the national challenge operated under the previous federations, trusts and academies to help underperforming Government is that schools in challenging circumstances, schools, and a culture of collaboration entrenched at its with pupils from difficult backgrounds, will be given heart. But there is one area where I believe in more additional understanding and support, and will be judged competition—I make no apology for it. I believe in on how they make progress. That is a clear difference more competition in team sports. It is wrong that after from the record under the previous Government, when expenditure of more than £2 billion, only one child in one rule was applied inflexibly. We are applying it more five took part in regular competitive team sports under sensitively. Labour. That melancholy trend will be reversed, thanks to the Government. May I also thank the right hon. Gentleman for his support for the expansion of Teach First and for the The right hon. Gentleman said that our policy is for statesmanlike way in which he approached the issue of some schools, not all. I know that he, by his own discipline and granting teachers anonymity? I look forward estimation, went to an ordinary comprehensive in to working with him and his Front-Bench colleagues on Lancashire. bringing forward an education Bill that makes good on those promises. Andy Burnham: Merseyside. 273 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 274

Michael Gove: I prefer the old counties. The good have a properly broad education. Our English baccalaureate news about that comprehensive in Merseyside is that will ensure that all children, whatever their background, St Aelred’s, where the right hon. Gentleman received have access to the best that has been thought and such a great education, has this week applied to the written academically, but we will also ensure that vocational Department for Education to embrace academy status. qualifications that blend with the academic are of the It is joining more than 340 schools that recognise the highest quality. That is why we commissioned Alison importance of academy freedoms. The people who taught Wolf, and why the Minister for Further Education, him so well are now embracing coalition policies. Is it Skills and Lifelong Learning has done so much with the not about time he did as well? launch of his skills strategy last week to raise the prestige and esteem of vocational learning. Mr Speaker: In the light of the performance thus far from both the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): of State, I must remind the House that this is not a I believe that there can be consensus in the House, but it debate; it is a statement in which the Government set must be based on an acceptance that the present position out their policy, and hon. Members question the Minister is not good enough, that we must have higher aspirations on that policy. That is the situation, and we must get for this country, that we must recognise that we have back to it. fallen behind our international competitors, and that we have seen the gap between rich and poor widen Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I welcome the unacceptably. Secretary of State’s announcement that there will be On international comparison, will my right hon. Friend further cuts in bureaucracy for schools,. The Government explain how the Select Committee will be able to map have already started that, and it has been welcomed by and track that? Will there be a role for Ofsted—on head teachers. When it comes to exclusion, he talked which we are doing an inquiry—in providing information about trialling ways of ensuring that schools retain and checking the Government’s progress? responsibility for excluded pupils, which I also welcome. Will there be further recognition for schools that take in Mr Speaker: I think we have the gist of the question. excluded pupils from other places to ensure that when they are assessed and the league tables are published, Michael Gove: I thank my hon. Friend, the Chairman they receive recognition of their extra work? of the Select Committee. There is a role for the Select Committee and there is a role for Ofsted. The White Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is a passionate supporter Paper specifically states that we want Ofqual, the exams of better care for children who have been excluded, and regulator, to benchmark our exams against the world’s our proposal today will mean that any school that best. The more data we have, the better. The White excludes a child will carry on with responsibility for Paper also says that we will ensure that a sufficient funding its provision and for the attainment of that number of schools take part in the international child. Head teachers will now have a direct stake in comparisons run by the OECD, the Trends in International ensuring that every child who arrives at their schools is Mathematics and Science Study and other organisations. well treated throughout their school career. Schools I am open to all ways of ensuring that we rigorously that take excluded children also need recognition, and I benchmark the performance of our schools and indeed will explore with my hon. Friend how to ensure that our Schools Ministers. they receive the support and recognition that they deserve. Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Several hon. Members rose— Hillsborough) (Lab): May I welcome those aspects of the White Paper that were directly cribbed from initiatives Mr Speaker: Order. Understandably, there is huge brought in from 1997? How does the Secretary of State interest in this subject, so brevity from Back-Bench and justify the contradiction of being against targets but Front-Bench Members alike is vital if we are to make toughening them and introducing new ones, less prescription progress. but more prescription, less central direction but more top-down diktats, and more freedom for some schools Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does but direction and restriction for others? What form of the Secretary of State agree that it profits no one to geometry did he learn to square such circles? pretend that there is a great divide between political parties when he makes a statement such as this? I Michael Gove: I am very grateful to the right hon. congratulate him on taking on board many of the Gentleman not just for his question, but for his achievements former Select Committee’s recommendations on teaching, as Secretary of State for Education. I have said it standards and much else, but does he not share with before, and I will repeat that he was an outstanding previous Labour Front Benchers some guilt that we Education Secretary. One reason why he was so good never addressed the problems that Tomlinson highlighted. was that he recognised that there is a time for central Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that he has not Government to play a role, and a time for them to let go. addressed them, and that we funked them? When he was Education Secretary, it was vital to tighten things up, particularly at the bottom, but, over time, he Michael Gove: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s recognised that as the education system improved, we typically statesmanlike words. I agree that there is significant needed to let go more and more. We are saying that consensus across the parties on the way forward. When there should be a relentless focus on underperformance. he was chairman of the Select Committee he did a great We need tough standards for schools that are failing, job of pioneering ideas. It is right to look at Mike but for those that can help there is, as Joel Klein said, a Tomlinson’s arguments and to ensure that all children chance to liberate greatness rather than mandate it. 275 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 276

Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): What plans Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Does the does my right hon. Friend have to ensure that when Secretary of State agree that any reform should be teachers are training more time is spent in the classroom evidence based, and that anything else is pure ideology? than in the lecture theatre? In the light of the chief inspector of schools’ report published yesterday, which showed clearly that university-led Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The initial teacher training was twice as likely to be good or example of teaching schools can reinforce the already outstanding as schools-led initial teacher training, will high standards in many new entrants to the profession. he now look at that matter again? We know that the best teachers are those who are intellectually capable, and those who learn from others. Michael Gove: The hon. Lady has been an impressive The best way to improve as a teacher is to observe great lead Member for children’s services and education in teachers and to be observed by great teachers. That is the past, and she speaks with authority. We are publishing why we are moving towards a system of teaching schools, an evidence paper to go alongside the White Paper—the first which replicates the virtues of teaching hospitals. time that has happened—which will contain the evidence base for everything that we are doing. The expansion of Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): The Secretary of teaching schools is based on research by the National State has said today, as he has many times, that social Federation for Educational Research, which showed mobility went backwards under Labour. Will he clarify that they are outstanding in the work that they do. whether that comment is based on the latest evidence from the London School of Economics in 2005, which Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): found that social mobility was lower among those born I welcome many of the freedoms that are now being in 1970 compared with 1958? If that is so, will he given to schools, but will the Secretary of State clarify explain how he blames Labour for the decline in social one point for me? If a group of parents requested that a mobility among people who were 27 when the previous Sport for All programme should be continued, would Government were elected? the head teacher have the funds in his budget to continue such a programme? Michael Gove: That was a beautifully read question. Michael Gove: I absolutely believe so, as a result of We can see why the hon. Lady was such an effective the real terms increase in spending on education. Critically, special adviser to the former Deputy Prime Minister. I by removing ring fences and giving heads more control referred in my statement to one of the most telling over how they spend their money, the priorities that are statistics of all: the fact that, among our very poorest dear to all of us, including sports, can be pursued. children—those who were eligible for free school meals— who had their entire education under Labour, fewer are Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): In his now going to Oxford or Cambridge, where I believe the statement, the Secretary of State mentioned the changing hon. Lady was fortunate enough to be educated. Those role of the local education authority. Can he explain children are, I am afraid, the unhappy victims of a how he would deal with reluctant LEAs such as Liberal Labour education programme which, despite the efforts Democrat-controlled Stockport council, which is holding of Members such as the right hon. Member for Sheffield, schools such as Reddish Vale technology college back Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), did not do from grasping his new agenda? enough to extend opportunity to the very poorest. When only 40 of our poorest children make it to Michael Gove: I am very interested that Reddish Vale Oxbridge—fewer than from Westminster, Eton or is keen to become an academy and to embrace the Winchester—no one can say that social mobility is right future, and I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s in this country. support. There is a huge variety of views across local government about the future of education, but I am Several hon. Members rose— encouraged that some of the most progressive and imaginative figures in local government are Liberal Mr Speaker: It is always a pleasure and a privilege for Democrat councillors. In particular, I would like to pay me to listen to the Secretary of State, but I am afraid we tribute to Gerald Vernon-Jackson in Portsmouth and to cannot have an essay in answer to every question. There David Bellotti in Bath and North East Somerset, among simply is not time. I enjoy the content of his answers many others. I will visit Stockport and have a word with and his mellifluous tones, but there is not time. Shorter, the Liberal Democrat councillors there, and I am sure please. that I will leave better informed and happier about the world. George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I welcome the emphasis that the Secretary of State has Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): There has been a placed on science in schools. Does he agree that we need teacher training institution in Bedford since 1882, and to do much more to inform pupils who are about to my right hon. Friend will be aware of the great work select their GCSE subjects of the value that science can that the university of Bedfordshire does on teacher add to their career? Does he also agree that we need to training for small schools in the eastern region, and on do more to inspire them about the sciences? I would like supporting further and continuing education for teachers. to commend to him the work of the Camborne science Can my right hon. Friend assure me that his proposals and community college, in partnerships with schools in will reinforce, and not undermine, the excellent work Japan and Singapore. Perhaps he would like to come being done by such institutions? and see some of that work. Michael Gove: Absolutely. We are going to say to all Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, higher education institutions that are currently involved and I will. in the provision of initial teacher training that we want 277 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 278

[Michael Gove] Michael Gove: I am delighted to do so. Homophobic bullying is on the rise in our schools, and homophobic them to open lab schools, in the same way that such terms are increasingly used towards gay students and schools have been developed in Finland and the United straight students in a way that seeks to undermine the States. Those schools are run by education departments tolerance that we have built up over the past 15 years. and they act as showcases for the best in teacher training, We therefore need to work with organisations such as and I believe that education departments here can grasp Stonewall and the Anti-Bullying Alliance, and to shine this opportunity. We are working with the Training and the light on schools such as St George’s Church of Development Agency to ensure that they have the resources England school, which has done a fantastic job in to do so. tackling homophobic bullying. This requires work not only by school leaders but by political leaders and all of Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Minister said in society to tackle a growing prejudice that is scarring our his statement that he wanted to bring back an emphasis tolerant society. on punctuation. However, his 10-page statement contains no more than 16 full stops. In the middle of the statement, Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): Before the we have to read nearly 300 words before we find a full Secretary of State takes us on a headlong rush back to stop, and at the end, there are more than 300 words the 1950s, will he bear in mind that good teaching before we find a full stop. How would the statement be requires not only practical experience but an academic marked under his system? knowledge of how children learn? Can he tell us how much funding will be available to his new teacher training Michael Gove: I almost wish that the hon. Gentleman schools to ensure that students get that academic training? had not put a question mark at the end of that. All I can Will the money go directly to the schools, or will it be say is that my approach as a Minister has been to eat, placed in the universities? shoot and leave when it comes to making a statement such as this. Michael Gove: More money will be available for teaching schools, and money will also be available for higher education institutions. I agree that it is important Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): I to recognise that teaching combines both IQ and welcome the White Paper, but my right hon. Friend will EQ—emotional intelligence. Teachers need to have a be aware that the educational attainment of looked-after grasp of their subject, but they also need to like children. children remains woefully low. Will he meet me and Increasingly, I have found that it is through applying other colleagues who have a particular passion for this themselves to the craft of teaching in the presence of subject, to discuss how, as we take the White Paper great teachers that they truly soar and inspire. forward, we can come up with better support and better measures of the progression of looked-after children through education, to ensure that their outcomes in Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): May education, and in life in general, are vastly improved? I congratulate my right hon. Friend on dealing with the overloaded, over-prescriptive and over-bureaucratic method of teaching that the previous Government allowed to be Michael Gove: I could not agree more with my hon. established? What is he doing to get rid of further red Friend. It is vital that we ensure that the pupil premium tape, as well as getting rid of the 4,000 pages of direction follows looked-after children as well. We all need to that the previous Government gave to all our teachers? recognise that care leavers need not only support after they leave school but focused interventions while they Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We are at school. We will be doing everything possible in are removing bureaucracy at every point. Not only are that regard, and I would be delighted to meet my hon. we slimming down the national curriculum, but we have Friend to discuss this. got rid of the self-evaluation form, which could run to more than 100 pages. We have also got rid of financial Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): I represent one of the management standards in schools, which was another poorest boroughs in the country, and my head teachers burden that head teachers said that they did not want. are afraid that the introduction of the pupil premium We are doing this because we believe in trusting heads will mean that they receive less money. Are they right to to do their best for the children whom it is their mission be afraid? to educate.

Michael Gove: The short answer is no. I am under the Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I fear that the Secretary impression that Newham is an outer London borough of State knows as much about schools as he does about and it will definitely benefit from the additional resources punctuation. Will he look again at the evidence that was of the pupil premium. If it is in inner London, it will given to the Select Committee about the 24-hour notice definitely benefit as well. The pupil premium will provision? Great teachers and great head teachers have go—[Interruption.] Everyone will benefit, because there given evidence, and they have consistently said that the is more money overall. removal of that provision would have a negative effect and risk safeguarding issues. No sensible head teacher Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I warmly would go down that route anyway. welcome my right hon. Friend’s announcement that he will prioritise action to tackle homophobic bullying, Michael Gove: A great many sensible teachers and which terrorises many vulnerable young gay men and head teachers have applauded precisely that move. There women. Will he set out his plans for this in a little more is a philosophical difference between the hon. Gentleman’s detail? approach and my approach. When I say that we are no 279 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 280 longer going to require something, that does not mean Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): The that we are saying to everyone, “Under no circumstances Secretary of State has spoken a great deal about the do it”. We believe in something called freedom, which poorest, but he appears not to understand that no means that it is up to individual teachers or head matter how much money is in the schools budget, it is teachers to decide for themselves. It is called “treating the money in the family budget that matters so much. people like adults”. What would he tell the parents of the thousands of young people in my constituency about their prospects Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): I welcome when the £30-a-week education maintenance allowance the Secretary of State’s emphasis on raising standards. is cut by his budget? In Leicestershire, however, we have a particular issue because we are one of the last counties to retain the Michael Gove: I am a great fan of the right hon. middle school system. Local head teachers are telling Lady, and I know how passionately she fights for her me that this is holding back standards, particularly in constituents in Lewisham. I also know that she is deeply GCSE results. Will the Secretary of State or one of his concerned about differential attainment from poorer Ministers meet me to discuss how best to move away children. One thing we are doing with the education from that system so that we drive up standards in maintenance allowance is ensuring that it is effectively Leicestershire, too? targeted on the very poorest. That is the thrust behind our whole review of education spending in order to Michael Gove: I believe in diversity and pluralism— make sure that more money—£2.5 billion—is spent different strokes for different folks. Middle schools do through the pupil premium on the poorest, while also very well in some parts of the country. I know that the ensuring that an additional £150 million is spent on lead member for education in Leicestershire, Ivan Oulds, children from poor homes as they make a transition is one of the most impressive councillors in the country, from school to university. We are also providing more and I look forward to talking to him, my hon. Friend money for pre-school learning for impoverished two- and other colleagues to see what can be done to ensure year-olds. that everyone is better off.

Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): May I Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): From my experience of urge Ministers to focus on the question of resits, which working with adults with learning disabilities, I know often work to the disadvantage of lower socio-economic that it quite common to encounter people who can groups and are at the root of grade inflation? I am also read, but do not always have the right level of concerned about the thinking on modules. Modules at comprehension. I note that the White Paper refers to a A-level work very well indeed, so I would be hesitant reading check at the age of six. I would like to know a about rolling those back. Finally, I join my hon. Friends little more about that and to be assured that this means on the question of the importance of grammar and a test of comprehension as well as a reading test. spelling. On that note, I must point to a grievous error on page 7, line 7 of the statement we were provided. The Michael Gove: The test designed for six-year-olds is Secretary of State, of all people, should know how to there simply as a screening test to make sure that people spell “bureaucracy”! are decoding fluently. Once children are decoding fluently, it is vital that they are well taught in order to encourage Michael Gove: First, I thank the hon. Gentleman for comprehension. Subsequent assessment throughout the his point about bureaucracy. Whenever I see that word, primary school years can ensure just that. a red mist descends over my eyes, so occasionally the finger slips on the keyboard. I also thank him for his Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The Secretary of State points about GCSEs and A-levels. We are stripping makes a great deal of freeing good head teachers to away modules from GCSEs. With A-levels, although I make decisions. If such a head teacher were to say, favour in many cases a linear approach that encourages under the new freedoms, that smaller class sizes and synoptic understanding of the subject, it remains for funding to match it were necessary—this is what everyone universities, learned bodies and schools to decide the applying to open a free school in my area is saying—will best way forward. For some subjects, it is appropriate to they get the same sort of sympathetic hearing as those have a modular approach at A-level. free school applicants are getting? Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): May I welcome Michael Gove: Yes, and many schools that have applied the White Paper, particularly the drive towards making for academy status have used the resources and the schools independent entities? There has been a stampede flexibility to reduce class sizes. Smaller class sizes are towards academy status in my constituency, but will my becoming a reality under the coalition Government. right hon. Friend ensure a smooth transition to academy status in all areas of the country? I know that the shadow Secretary of State will be anxious to see his old David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): We have school, St Aelred’s, become an academy. [Interruption.] waited 13 long years for a Minister to bring in reforms that will truly drive up standards of education and Michael Gove: I am delighted that St Aelred’s, as an behaviour. Now, some Members are saying that we are outstanding school, is going to become an academy. I acting too hastily. Will my right hon. Friend assure us look forward to visiting the school with the right hon. that he will bring in these measures as quickly as Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), so that we can possible, the better to encourage the devolved regions celebrate the superb education he received, along with such as Wales and Scotland to follow? the coalition’s extension of more autonomy to more great schools. Michael Gove: Yes. 281 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 282

Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) the speed, grace and support that the superb officials in (Lab): I would like to ask a question on behalf of the the Department for Education accord to all schools many intelligent, highly motivated and well-informed that want to enjoy greater autonomy. youngsters—and their parents—who have a problem with dyslexia. They already face great challenges when Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Does it comes to learning a modern language. Their concern my right hon. Friend agree that schools fail children if might be that the school would hold their difficulties they do not teach them an acceptable level of spelling against them because, if they have many dyslexic children, and grammar? Does he further accept that it is the job it might cause the school to fall in the standards league. of all teachers to ensure that that is the case and to My main question is this: in his statement, the right correct work, where necessary? hon. Gentleman said that he was going to restore the recognition of spelling in GCSE examinations. Will Michael Gove: I could not agree more. Earlier today, that not be a barrier for those dyslexic kids no matter it was a pleasure to visit the Durand primary school in how hard they try to pass the requisite number of the constituency of the hon. Member for Vauxhall GCSEs? (Kate Hoey), which does precisely that. The school also does a superb job of training new teachers to become Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Lady, who outstanding leaders. makes a number of important points. Identifying dyslexia at the earliest possible stage is one of the reasons why Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Will the Secretary of we are introducing an appropriate check at the age of State explain his comment, where he says he will six. There are many other ways of identifying children “make GCSE performance tables more aspirational by judging who have special needs and require support. A number schools on how well all students do—not just in English and of interventions are in place to ensure that, at assessment maths but also science, modern languages and the humanities, time, children with dyslexia or specific learning difficulties like history and geography”? can be supported through it. I absolutely agree that we Will he explain what that means in plain English? can never stop trying to ensure that children who are living with dyslexia or other learning difficulties are Michael Gove: Yes, it means that instead of the better supported. performance tables that were used under the Labour Government, in which only English and maths and then Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): I welcome any mixture of GCSEs were taken into account, we the White Paper. Will my right hon. Friend say a little will, in future, have English, maths—[Interruption.] more about his plans to improve underperforming schools? How many questions does the hon. Gentleman want to ask? Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who I I think I made my view clear in my response to the know takes a keen interest in the educational attainment right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), but I of poorer children. In addition to implementing the am happy to have an opportunity to repeat it. I believe pupil premium, we are going to focus relentlessly on that it is wrong to assume that children from poorer schools where attainment is low and progress is poor. I backgrounds cannot pass GCSEs in modern foreign know that some schools will often take in children who languages, science, history and geography. One of our have been poorly educated at primary level, but still problems in this country is that only 16% of young make fantastic progress with them. I do not want those people achieve those five academic GCSEs, and only schools to be stigmatised and I do not want schools to 4% of children eligible for free school meals do so. That be seen as failing, but where they are underperforming, is a scandal. The hon. Gentleman should be on our we need to hold them to clear standards and provide side: he should be trying to get the children in his additional financial support to help them achieve them. constituency to learn, and to obtain the qualifications I am perfectly happy to say that this builds on an that will give them jobs in the future. initiative that the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) and Lord David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I Adonis helped to introduce. I take no pride in authorship: congratulate my right hon. Friend on his excellent White this was a good idea, and I am delighted to extend it. Paper. What measures does it contain to protect teachers from false allegations made by disruptive pupils? Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): May I tell the Secretary of State that the decision of St Aelred’s Michael Gove: It was a pleasure to meet teachers in school in my constituency to go for academy status was my hon. Friend’s constituency during the local election made under the last Labour Government, not his campaign two years ago. I know that they will welcome Government? He has some responsibility, however, for our proposals to ensure that investigations are speeded blocking many of the rebuilding projects that were up when teachers face false allegations, and to ensure intended to take place. Will he take credit for that and that they enjoy anonymity if such allegations are made. offer to provide the much-needed resources? If we are We will also tell head teachers that there should be no to have a world-class education system, we need the automatic suspension of teachers when they exercise schools to go with it. legitimate authority in the classroom.

Michael Gove: I look forward to visiting the hon. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): The Secretary of Gentleman’s constituency to congratulate St Aelred’s State’s decision to axe funding for school sport partnerships on moving towards academy status. Of course, it was will be extremely damaging to the fitness, health and our Government and our legislation that allowed the attainment of our young people, as well as to our school to make that transition to academy status with country’s future sporting prowess. May I implore the 283 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 284 right hon. Gentleman, who is a reasonable man, to Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): Requiring revisit that decision before he destroys the renaissance 24 hours’ notice for detention does not in any way that school sport has experienced in the past few years? undermine discipline, but once that rule goes, teenagers could well tell their parents that they must stay behind Michael Gove: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. for detention when in fact they have been inveigled into I know that he is a reasonable man as well. I am sure meeting abusers who have groomed them on the internet. that we can work together in future to ensure that the I say seriously to the Secretary of State that removing additional resources that we are investing in education, that rule will put children at risk, and I am sure that he and the additional emphasis on competitive team sport, does not want to do that. Will he reconsider, and talk to provide every school with the support that it needs to children’s organisations such as the National Society for give all children the physical education that they deserve. the Prevention of Cruelty to Children?

Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): The Michael Gove: We take child protection amazingly new academy in Milton Keynes is a fantastic facility, seriously. We are working with the Council for Internet but the fact that it has fewer places than the school that Safety and the Child Exploitation and Online Protection it replaced has had the unintended consequence of Centre to ensure that we are doing everything that is forcing another school in my constituency to become necessary to protect children from online grooming. the de facto community school. How can we ensure a However, I do not see how giving teachers more control balance between the rights of schools to set their own over discipline can undermine the safety of all children. admissions policies and the rights of parents to send their children to a local school? Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): Too often kids go to school with the wrong attitude, and spend a great Michael Gove: My hon. Friend has asked an important deal of their time in the classroom being disruptive. question, to which I can give two answers. First, we are What specific steps will my right hon. Friend take to encouraging collaboration to enable more schools to restore discipline in the classroom, so that teachers can join trusts or federations involving an outstanding school focus on teaching and enabling kids to learn rather than that is sponsored by an academy, so that excellence can on managing disruptive pupils? be more evenly spread. Secondly, we are going to simplify the admissions code and give local authorities a clear Michael Gove: We are going to change the rules on role in policing it, in order to ensure that admissions are search, on the use of appropriate force and, as I have fair to all. said, on detention, but, critically, we are going to ensure that children learn to read properly at primary school. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Will the Secretary The problems involving disruptive children at secondary of State confirm that the entire £162 million grant to school are often due to the fact that they have not been support school sport partnerships has been cut, not taught to read. When they arrive at secondary school devolved into the main schools grant? Does he agree the curriculum is too stretching, and unfortunately they with the head teacher of Chesterfield high school in act up rather than learning. That is a tragedy, and it Crosby, who tells me that that will have a profound needs to be addressed at a very early stage. effect on his ability to form partnerships with primary schools and other secondary schools, and will reduce Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): In his statement, the young people’s participation in sport? Secretary of State said that he wanted parents to choose schools rather than schools choosing parents. I am sure Michael Gove: Overall spending on schools has risen that many parents share that sentiment, but will he as a result of the comprehensive spending review. clarify the changes that he will make in the way in which local education authorities set admission limits for individual schools in order to ensure that that choice is available? Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I welcome the broadening of the base for the gold standard in GCSE attainment, but what can my right hon. Friend Michael Gove: I thank the hon. Lady for a typically do to ensure that children who are far above that thoughtful question. We will work with local authorities, standard—and those in the most challenging circumstances individual schools and others to revise the admissions who may be expected to fall quite far below it—are also code in order to achieve exactly the aim that she has fully stretched and given the encouragement that they described. need, and how can schools’ efforts in that regard be I recognise that when it comes to admissions, one of fully recognised? the problems is rationing access to good schools. I want to ensure that there are more good schools, so that more Michael Gove: My hon. Friend has made an extremely parents can receive the education that they deserve for good point. Along with Ofqual and others, we will their children. Sometimes there are difficult decisions to ensure that our examinations are as rigorous as the be made, and in those circumstances we need clear rules world’s best, so that children who are truly talented that are rigorously enforced in order to provide fairness. receive that support. Some children may not be able to I want to ensure that there is buy-in from everyone to access GCSEs, although I imagine that many more will guarantee that fairness. be able to pass them: that is what we expect, and that is what those in other countries succeed in doing. We are Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): I welcome working with Alison Wolf on qualifications that will the White Paper, but will my right hon. Friend elaborate ensure that every child’s achievement and hard work are on his plans to replicate the teaching hospital model in recognised. education and to create teaching schools? 285 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 286

Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his how it will allocate it in consultation with its schools support. Teaching schools that are the embryo for our forum. Some schools—this happens every year—have model are currently operating in Manchester, London declining rolls and sometimes have to adjust their budgets and the black country. The National Foundation for because of that, but the pupil premium itself means Educational Research has described them as an outstanding more money, particularly for the poorest. model for how we can improve teaching. I think it critical for us to raise the prestige of the teaching Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): In profession and the esteem in which it is held so that it 1950s Kenya, my father received an education that ranks with medicine, architecture or law as an aspirational covered the writings of Chaucer and Shakespeare as profession that is entered by the very best of our graduates, well as British history. Does the Secretary of State not and I believe that this is a step along the way. find it ironic that many students in modern Britain are given a less comprehensive education in British history Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): than many students in 1950s Kenya? Local head teachers tell me that they have recruited their best ever generation of newly qualified teachers from our local universities, so I am glad that the Secretary Michael Gove: That is a striking piece of personal of State has confirmed that universities will have a testimony, and my hon. Friend and his father stand as continuing role in training teachers. Will he also confirm powerful witnesses of the importance of recognising that he will not fund the new teaching schools by that we should not shy away from expecting children cutting the higher education budget even further? from all backgrounds to be stretched and tested by being introduced to the best that has been thought and Michael Gove: The higher education budget is the written. Those high aspirations are embodied in this province of my colleagues the Secretary of State for White Paper but, sadly, they were undermined by the Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member response of the right hon. Member for Leigh. for Twickenham (Vince Cable), and the Minister for Universities and Science, my right hon. Friend the Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Despite the answers Member for Havant (Mr Willetts). We support higher the Secretary of State has given today, there is still great education through the money that is spent by the Training concern that some schools could lose out as a result of and Development Agency for teachers. We want to the consolidation of the standards funds granted to ensure that that money is spent on attracting more schools into the direct school grant, and the formula highly qualified people into teaching, and in the next distribution of that. Can he give an absolute guarantee few months we will present proposals explaining exactly that that will not be the case? how we will support high-performing institutions, whether they are higher education institutions or schools. Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman was a lead member Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I congratulate for children’s services in Gateshead, which has a fantastic my right hon. Friend on his excellent White Paper and local authority, and he knows that local authorities especially on the pupil premium, which will benefit sometimes have to make difficult decisions. I believe many people in my constituency. Christopher Whitehead they will make the right decisions. We are providing language college in my constituency, which is an outstanding them with more money for schools. I hope they use it school, is shortly to launch Mandarin classes. Will the wisely, and I am sure they will. Secretary of State expand on what the White Paper offers to improve the depth, breadth and quality of Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Has my right hon. language teaching in our schools? Friend seen the television programme about the experiment at Pear Tree Mead primary school in my constituency? Michael Gove: I have been working with my right It showed Gareth Malone transforming the literacy hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation skills of young male adults. Given that more than 30% and Skills to ensure that we can help more people of our young people leaving primary school cannot studying modern languages, particularly Mandarin and read, what measures are there in the White Paper to strategic subjects, into teaching. I was fortunate enough improve literacy skills, and will my right hon. Friend to be in China with my right hon. Friend two weeks look at projects such as that at Pear Tree Mead? ago, when we received funding from the Confucius Institute to ensure that there will be 1,000 new trained Michael Gove: It was a great programme, and Gareth teachers of Mandarin, and that the fantastic work Malone is a star. Improving literacy is important, but it being done in the school in my hon. Friend’s constituency is also important to ensure that all primary school is spread more widely. children have access to excellent cultural activities that Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): Will the can help them to enjoy and achieve. Secretary of State add to the guarantee that he seemed to give earlier that no school would lose as a result of Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Two weeks the pupil premium? Will he give me a guarantee that no ago I presented prizes at Silverdale school, a successful inner-city school in Manchester will suffer either a school in the Deputy Prime Minister’s constituency relative or an absolute loss of funding as a result of his which draws in many kids from inner-city areas of my proposals? constituency. The Secretary of State talks about taking advice from teachers, so will he accept their advice that Michael Gove: No school will suffer as a result of our their work to transform the life chances of kids such as proposals. It will, of course, be for Manchester as a many in my constituency will be deeply damaged by the local authority to decide, when it receives its funding, withdrawal of the education maintenance allowance? 287 Schools White Paper24 NOVEMBER 2010 Schools White Paper 288

Michael Gove: I, too, have been fortunate enough to David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I welcome the visit some of the outstanding schools in Sheffield, some Secretary of State’s statement. Will he say a little more of them supported by the outstanding leadership shown about his plans for teaching schools, and in particular by the Liberal Democrat councillors on Sheffield council. how they will better support the schools around them? [Interruption.] No, they have been very good actually. [Interruption.] No, they have been very impressive—a Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his lot more impressive than councillors on many Labour remarks. The teaching schools that we will establish local authorities—and I will work with them to ensure must act as hubs and serve as an exemplar of how that funding is targeted on the very poorest, so that the teachers can be trained for all schools in their area. At hon. Gentleman’s constituents get the education they present, we have that model of teaching school in deserve. embryo in Manchester, the black country and London. We want to spread them, so as to ensure that in the Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Oxford and south-west, the south-east and the north-east there are Cambridge universities recruit more students from more great and outstanding schools providing that sort Westminster school and Eton college than from the of support. entire body of pupils qualifying for free school meals. I congratulate the Secretary of State on the many measures Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): I welcome the White he is taking to address both that iniquity and many Paper. Is my right hon. Friend aware that pupils can others that beset our education system. Will he tell us pass a GCSE in English without reading a novel? What more about his plans to reduce exam grade inflation will he do about that? and to improve opportunities to attain core academic knowledge? Michael Gove: We are working with the exams regulator, Ofqual, to make sure our exams are as rigorous as those Michael Gove: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend in the world’s most demanding education jurisdictions. for her comments. I have had the great pleasure of It is vital that we encourage more people in this country visiting a sixth-form college in her constituency, which, to read fiction—[Interruption.]—and I am sure the using its autonomy, does a superb job in raising standards right hon. Member for Leigh has already thought of all for children from a variety of backgrounds. There should sorts of quips that he will be only too happy to use be no compromise on academic excellence. That is why against me as a result of my having made that comment. we are asking Ofqual to benchmark our exams against the world’s best. Mr Speaker: I call Mr Pincher. Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Given the intention to expand the use of traditional uniforms in schools Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Thank you, and the fact that only a minority of local authorities Mr Speaker; clearly, I am moving up the batting order provide grants for school uniforms, what support will in this particular sport. be made available for already overstretched parents to In welcoming my right hon. Friend’s White Paper, meet the extra costs involved? may I ask him to encourage greater vertical integration between primary and secondary schools? One issue that Michael Gove: One of the many things the last teachers in Tamworth have raised with me is the number Government did that was wise was to recognise that it is of primary school children who do not have the necessary important that support is given to all schools in order to reading and writing skills when they move on to secondary ensure children have access to high-quality school uniforms. school, and we need to improve that. In many cases a high-quality school uniform is not only a shrewd investment for the parent, but a wise choice for Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is bang on the button, the school in building a sense of corporate identity. We and one of the reasons why we are establishing primary want to make sure that the cost of uniforms is never a academies and integrating primary schools into academy barrier to a child accessing a school, and the admissions chains is to deal with precisely that issue. The last code specifies that. Government said the creation of primary academies would send a chill down the spine of every parent, but Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I welcome actually the creation of many new primary academies the White Paper’s focus on the fundamental importance has meant that parents enjoy smaller class sizes and of the quality of teaching. My right hon. Friend spoke higher standards and children better prepared for the about what the Government will be doing to recruit the world of work and further learning. This is a reform best and to improve teacher training. Will he say a bit that I hope every party represented in the House will more about what the White Paper has to offer existing now support. teachers in my constituency and throughout the country in terms of continuing professional development and Mr Speaker: I call Rehman Chishti. flexibility in terms and conditions? Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes two very good Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): points. It is crucial that we support our existing teachers Last but not least. to do even better. As a number of Members have said, I welcome the statement as representing an excellent we have a great current crop of teachers in our schools, way forward. Will the anonymity for teachers who are but the best way they can improve is through making the subject of false accusations last until conviction? sure they have a chance to observe the best and to be observed, and that is one of the reasons why we are Michael Gove: The intention is that anonymity should scrapping the so-called three-hour rule, which serves to last until charging. We do not want to interfere with the limit observation of great teaching. way the courts operate, but we do want to ensure that 289 Schools White Paper 24 NOVEMBER 2010 290

[Michael Gove] Points of Order teachers who may face vexatious or mischievous allegations 1.38 pm are protected. That is crucial, and I am very glad that the right hon. Member for Leigh will support us in Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) bringing forward that measure. (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will recall that during Prime Minister’s Question Time my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) asked the Prime Minister about the mobility component of disability living allowance for those in residential accommodation and the Government’s plans for people in those circumstances. The Prime Minister said in reply that the official Opposition supported the Government’s position. I observed that the Prime Minister was being advised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I recall that the Chancellor made the same comment to the House at Treasury questions a week or so ago. I seek your advice on the following point, Mr Speaker. The fact is that my Opposition Front-Bench colleagues assured me right up until when the last statement was being made that that is not the policy of the official Opposition, and that we are utterly opposed to it— Mr Speaker: Order. I am very grateful to the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke). He is an extremely experienced and assiduous Member and I was waiting expectantly, with bated breath and beads of sweat upon my brow, for the point of order he was going to raise, and I think we have now just about reached it, except that it is not a point of order. It is, I think, a point of debate, at which the right hon. Gentleman is very adept, but I am afraid we will have to leave it there. There is nothing on which I need to rule, although it is always a pleasure to hear from the right hon. Gentleman. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think that, like me, you are very concerned when Ministers widely trail announcements prior to their being made in this House. I cannot recall a more widely trailed ministerial statement than the one just made by the Secretary of State for Education. The statement and the White Paper have been extensively trailed in the newspapers over the past four or five days—I have many examples here. I know that you are against that practice, so I wonder whether you would like to comment. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. As he knows, I believe very strongly, on behalf of the House, that statements of policy should be made first to this House and not through the media. He will appreciate that I keep a very attentive eye on these matters and I seek to perform the role of a detective such as I am able; I am always on the lookout for decisive evidence. But as to the specifics of today, I have nothing to add. I just say to the hon. Gentleman that I have his interests at heart—I hope he will realise that—and these matters are continually under review. If there are no further points of order— Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab) rose— Mr Speaker: The shadow Secretary of State cannot resist. Andy Burnham: I cannot. Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Youasked for evidence. The Financial Times was given drafts of the White Paper and I can 291 Points of Order 24 NOVEMBER 2010 292 supply that evidence to you. My hon. Friend the Member Epilepsy and Related Conditions for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) is right that on this occasion (Education and Health Services) there seems to have been a widespread breach of your stricture about making announcements first to this Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order House. I will provide that evidence, but I would be No. 23) grateful if you would then raise this matter with the Government. 1.42 pm Mr Speaker: I say to the right hon. Gentleman that I Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I beg to move, have no desire to quibble with him or any other Member, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require action plans to but I did not ask for evidence; I simply said that I am be prepared for the provision of education and health services for always on the lookout for the evidence, which is not children and adults with epilepsy and related conditions; to make quite the same thing. I think that the matter must be provision about support for children and adults with epilepsy and related conditions; and for connected purposes. parked for today. I have referred previously to the fact of the Procedure Committee inquiry into statements, to Let me offer the following words to the House: complex, which he and other of his colleagues, and other Members fascinating and unique. I could be talking about us and from across the House, might wish to submit evidence. the spouses and partners of hon. Members, but I am The matter will be kept, on an ongoing basis, under describing the human brain, which is at the centre and review. If he wants to bring to me particular instances the focus of epilepsy and other related conditions, such of alleged abuse, he can do so. But for today, that must as non-epileptic seizures. The human brain is the most not be done on the Floor of the Chamber, but on complex organ in the living world. It contains 10 billion another occasion. If there are no further points of neurones, which cause seizures if they fire excessively. order, we come to the ten-minute rule motion; the hon. Sometimes there are structural and genetic reasons for Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) has been patiently such seizures and sometimes they are idiopathic, which awaiting her opportunity. means that there are no known causes. As a society, we are failing children and adults with these conditions. Today I hope to persuade the Government to support my Bill, which proposes an action plan in health and education that is big on impact and low on costs, but could lead to savings in the short and long term and, more importantly, could save lives. With a swish of the Secretary of State’s pen, this could lead to benefits to society, both economic and general, and to many individuals with epilepsy, whose lives are adversely affected by poor health or education provision. Nearly 500,000 people in the UK have epilepsy—that is one in every 131 people—and so in an average constituency 705 people will have it. Many of them will struggle throughout their lives with stigma, unemployment and fear. They look to our NHS to support them, but it fails them. There are centres of excellence throughout the country, and Britain leads the world in epilepsy research, but unfortunately we are lagging well behind in practice. The tragic part is that, on average, three people a day die of epilepsy-related causes and one of those three deaths every day is avoidable with good treatment. Four hundred people are therefore dying needlessly each and every year, which is more than the total of AIDS-related deaths and cot deaths combined. The death rate in Britain is about 25% higher than the median for the EU, and these deaths are particularly tragic because the greatest risk is in the 16 to 35 age bracket. That figure of 400 represents nearly two thirds of the people in this Chamber; there would be an outcry if something affected two thirds of this Chamber every year, but these deaths go unnoticed. The first challenge is diagnosis, and the failure rate is alarming. Studies show a misdiagnosis rate of 20 to 31%, with one study of childhood epilepsy showing a rate of 40%. National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines require a specialist to make the diagnosis and a first specialist appointment to take place within two weeks of a seizure. Without a diagnosis, there can be no treatment. The patient can experience many negative events with severe consequences, including death, before they are even seen by the specialist and treated. A recent survey of NHS trusts published in 293 Epilepsy and Related Conditions 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Epilepsy and Related Conditions 294 (Education and Health Services) (Education and Health Services) [Valerie Vaz] “As well as the potential for seizures to make the child miss lessons, epilepsy can cause short and long-term memory problems, January 2009 by Epilepsy Action showed that more difficulties with concentration and information retention. Often than 90% failed to meet the two-week deadline, and it is teachers don’t fully understand why a child may appear to lack effort or attention and achieve poorly. Variable behaviour can be the patient who has been paying the price. misinterpreted as being wilful.” For many, the misdiagnosis continues for decades, Even where the children are on drugs, those often have a and doctors prescribe different drugs on a trial-and-error side effect. Whereas those with mild dyslexia are afforded basis. What is required is a tertiary referral to a specialist extra time in examinations, children with a diagnosis of who can get the diagnosis right. It is estimated that an epilepsy or a history of non-epileptic seizures are not extra 20% of people with epilepsy could be seizure-free afforded that, nor are they given any attention. with the right treatment. In England alone, that would translate to a massive 69,000 more people free of seizures The Department needs to recognise epilepsy as a and able to play a full part in society. Tertiary referral is special educational need and to recognise that it can also needed to establish who can benefit from surgery, affect those with higher than average intellectual ability which can cure epilepsy in some people. It is estimated who may only be achieving at a comparatively low level. that only 25% of children who could benefit from To give children with epilepsy and related conditions an surgery get access to it. individual assessment to establish what support they need would involve the average secondary school The medical costs alone of misdiagnosis are estimated undertaking only one assessment a year. Without that at more than £22 million each year: every mistreated assessment, it is impossible to know how best to support patient calls on our overstretched NHS, as general a child with epilepsy or related conditions so that the practitioner visits, repeated hospitalisations and generalist legal duty to them is satisfied—that is, that reasonable consultant time are absorbed. GPs should be able to refer steps have been taken to ensure that they are not placed directly to an epilepsy specialist, rather than to a secondary at a disadvantage in education or other services. Such a generalist. Other vital issues to address include: the move would anticipate where the barriers to learning employment of life-enhancing and cost-saving epilepsy would lie and take action to remove them. specialist nurses; the low level of epilepsy specialist neurologists; and the many people who have been wrongly In this way, people can fulfil their potential like other diagnosed with epilepsy and spend the rest of their lives high-profile people with epilepsy—they can become the taking powerful drugs with serious side effects for no next Dostoevsky, and can write poetry like Lord Byron good reason. or beautiful songs like Neil Young. We owe it to all those people whose deaths could have been avoided and I shall now discuss education and why we need an who never reached their promise. I ask the House and action plan to support our children. The following the Government to support an action plan for tertiary extract from the 1978 Warnock report on special education referral in health and an annual assessment in education remains as valid today as it was at the time: to save the needless loss of life and to enable our “many children with epilepsy may have serious problems in children and adults to fulfil their hopes and dreams. concentration and behaviour, which affect their learning....Their Question put and agreed to. particular difficulties are not always recognised by schools and colleges, and better arrangements for reviewing their progress are Ordered, needed....if these children are to be helped to develop their That Valerie Vaz, Mr David Amess, Jeremy Corbyn, potential to the full.” Mrs Mary Glindon, Mr Sam Gyimah, Paul Maynard, The actions proposed by Warnock still need Steve McCabe, Grahame M. Morris, Pamela Nash, implementation. Approximately 40,000 children with Bob Russell, Laura Sandys and Owen Smith present the epilepsy are in mainstream schools, and about half of Bill. all children with epilepsy are underachieving in relation Valerie Vaz accordingly presented the Bill. to their intellectual ability. Epilepsy is defined by the Department for Education as being a purely medical Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on condition in the same category as asthma and diabetes, Friday, 4 March and to be printed (Bill 112). but that comparison is flawed. With the proper management of medication, a large majority of children with diabetes FIXED-TERM PARLIAMENTS BILL and asthma have little or no education or behavioural (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2) challenges, whereas that is not the case for children with Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing epilepsy. Epilepsy is a medical condition that frequently Order No. 83A(7)), has an impact on learning, well-being and behaviour; it That the Order of 13 September 2010 (Fixed-term Parliaments is more akin to autism. Bill (Programme)) be varied as follows: There is no reference to epilepsy in the Department (1) in paragraph 2, for “two days” there shall be substituted for Education’s key special educational needs document. “three days”; That lack of recognition hampers teachers as it results (2) in paragraph 4, for “at the moment of interruption on the in a failure to provide advice or to recognise that sometimes second day” there shall be substituted “three hours after the epilepsy can take on the form of absences, where children commencement of the proceedings on the third day”.—(James literally space out. Professor Brian Neville, former Prince Duddridge.) of Wales chair of childhood epilepsy, has said: Question agreed to. 295 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 296

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte Gauke, Mr David Letwin, rh Mr Oliver [Relevant documents: The Second Report from the Political George, Andrew Lewis, Brandon and Constitutional Reform Committee, Fixed-term Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Parliaments Bill, HC 436, and the Government’s response Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter thereto, Cm 7951.] Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan [2ND ALLOCATED DAY] Graham, Richard Loughton, Tim Further considered in Committee Grant, Mrs Helen Lumley, Karen Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne [MR NIGEL EVANS in the Chair] Green, Damian Maude, rh Mr Francis Greening, Justine May, rh Mrs Theresa Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maynard, Paul Clause 1 Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Jason Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl POLLING DAYS FOR PARLIAMENTARY GENERAL Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne ELECTIONS Halfon, Robert McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Hames, Duncan McPartland, Stephen Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Hammond, rh Mr Philip McVey, Esther The Committee divided: Ayes 307, Noes 229. Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Hancock, Matthew Mercer, Patrick Division No. 130] [1.53 pm Hancock, Mr Mike Metcalfe, Stephen Harper, Mr Mark Miller, Maria AYES Harrington, Richard Mills, Nigel Adams, Nigel Cairns, Alun Harris, Rebecca Milton, Anne Afriyie, Adam Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hart, Simon Moore, rh Michael Aldous, Peter Carmichael, Mr Alistair Harvey, Nick Mordaunt, Penny Alexander, rh Danny Carmichael, Neil Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Andrew, Stuart Carswell, Mr Douglas Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Chishti, Rehman Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, David Bacon, Mr Richard Clappison, Mr James Heath, Mr David Morris, James Baker, Norman Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen Baker, Steve Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hemming, John Mowat, David Baldry, Tony Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Mulholland, Greg Baldwin, Harriett Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Mundell, rh David Barclay, Stephen Cox, Mr Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Barker, Gregory Crabb, Stephen Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Baron, Mr John Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert Barwell, Gavin Davey, Mr Edward Holloway, Mr Adam Newmark, Mr Brooks Bebb, Guto Davies, David T. C. Hopkins, Kris Newton, Sarah Beith, rh Sir Alan (Monmouth) Horwood, Martin Nokes, Caroline Bellingham, Mr Henry Davies, Glyn Howarth, Mr Gerald Norman, Jesse Benyon, Richard de Bois, Nick Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Beresford, Sir Paul Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Berry, Jake Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Opperman, Guy Bingham, Andrew Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hunter, Mark Osborne, rh Mr George Binley, Mr Brian Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Huppert, Dr Julian Ottaway, Richard Birtwistle, Gordon Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick Paice, Mr James Blackman, Bob Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Blackwood, Nicola Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Pawsey, Mark Blunt, Mr Crispin Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Boles, Nick Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Percy, Andrew Bottomley, Peter Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Perry, Claire Bradley, Karen Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Brady, Mr Graham Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Brake, Tom Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Bray, Angie Eustice, George Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Brazier, Mr Julian Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Pritchard, Mark Brokenshire, James Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Pugh, Dr John Brooke, Annette Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Raab, Mr Dominic Bruce, Fiona Fallon, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Bruce, rh Malcolm Farron, Tim Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark Buckland, Mr Robert Foster, Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Burley, Mr Aidan Fox,rhDrLiam Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reevell, Simon Burns, Conor Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Reid, Mr Alan Burns, Mr Simon Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Robathan, Mr Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, Hugh Burstow, Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Mr Laurence Burt, Lorely Fuller, Richard Leech, Mr John Rogerson, Dan Byles, Dan Gale, Mr Roger Lefroy, Jeremy Rosindell, Andrew 297 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 298

Rudd, Amber Syms, Mr Robert Eagle, Maria Mahmood, Shabana Ruffley, Mr David Teather, Sarah Edwards, Jonathan Mann, John Russell, Bob Thurso, John Efford, Clive Marsden, Mr Gordon Rutley, David Timpson, Mr Edward Elliott, Julie McCabe, Steve Sanders, Mr Adrian Tomlinson, Justin Ellman, Mrs Louise McCann, Mr Michael Sandys, Laura Tredinnick, David Engel, Natascha McCarthy, Kerry Scott, Mr Lee Truss, Elizabeth Evans, Chris McClymont, Gregg Selous, Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Farrelly, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Shannon, Jim Uppal, Paul Field, rh Mr Frank McDonnell, John Shapps, rh Grant Vaizey, Mr Edward Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Alison Sharma, Alok Vara, Mr Shailesh Flello, Robert McGovern, Jim Shelbrooke, Alec Vickers, Martin Flint, rh Caroline McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark Walker, Mr Charles Flynn, Paul McKechin, Ann Simpson, David Walker, Mr Robin Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Simpson, Mr Keith Wallace, Mr Ben Francis, Dr Hywel Mearns, Ian Skidmore, Chris Ward, Mr David Gapes, Mike Michael, rh Alun Smith, Miss Chloe Watkinson, Angela Gardiner, Barry Miliband, rh David Smith, Henry Weatherley, Mike Gilmore, Sheila Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Julian Webb, Steve Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Smith, Sir Robert Wharton, James Glindon, Mrs Mary Morden, Jessica Soames, Nicholas Wheeler, Heather Goggins, rh Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Soubry, Anna White, Chris Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Whittaker, Craig Green, Kate (Easington) Spencer, Mr Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George Stephenson, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Stevenson, John Williams, Stephen Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stewart, Bob Williamson, Gavin Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Stewart, Iain Willott, Jenny Hanson, rh Mr David Murray, Ian Stewart, Rory Wilson, Mr Rob Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nandy, Lisa Streeter, Mr Gary Wollaston, Dr Sarah Harris, Mr Tom Nash, Pamela Hendrick, Mark Nuttall, Mr David Stride, Mel Wright, Simon Stuart, Mr Graham Hepburn, Mr Stephen O’Donnell, Fiona Young, rh Sir George Stunell, Andrew Hermon, Lady Onwurah, Chi Zahawi, Nadhim Sturdy, Julian Heyes, David Osborne, Sandra Swales, Ian Tellers for the Ayes: Hillier, Meg Owen, Albert Swayne, Mr Desmond Jeremy Wright and Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa Swinson, Jo James Duddridge Hodge, rh Margaret Perkins, Toby Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Phillipson, Bridget NOES Hollobone, Mr Philip Qureshi, Yasmin Hopkins, Kelvin Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Abbott, Ms Diane Cash, Mr William Hosie, Stewart Reed, Mr Jamie Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Chapman, Mrs Jenny Howarth, rh Mr George Reeves, Rachel Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Clark, Katy Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Emma Alexander, Heidi Clarke, rh Mr Tom Illsley, Mr Eric Reynolds, Jonathan Ali, Rushanara Clwyd, rh Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Austin, Ian Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda Robertson, Angus Bailey, Mr Adrian Connarty, Michael James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, John Bain, Mr William Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Banks, Gordon Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Tony Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Benton, Mr Joe Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Berger, Luciana Dakin, Nic Joyce, Eric Seabeck, Alison Betts, Mr Clive Danczuk, Simon Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Blackman-Woods, Roberta Darling, rh Mr Alistair Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Blears, rh Hazel David, Mr Wayne Kendall, Liz Shepherd, Mr Richard Blenkinsop, Tom Davidson, Mr Ian Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Blomfield, Paul Davies, Geraint Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Blunkett, rh Mr David De Piero, Gloria Lavery, Ian Singh, Mr Marsha Brennan, Kevin Denham, rh Mr John Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Brown, Lyn Dobbin, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Slaughter, Mr Andy Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dobson, rh Frank Lloyd, Tony Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brown, Mr Russell Docherty, Thomas Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Smith, Angela Bryant, Chris Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Long, Naomi Smith, Nick Burden, Richard Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Owen Burnham, rh Andy Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Caroline Soulsby, Sir Peter Byrne, rh Mr Liam Dromey, Jack Lucas, Ian Spellar, rh Mr John Cairns, David Dugher, Michael MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Straw, rh Mr Jack Campbell, Mr Alan Durkan, Mark Mactaggart, Fiona Stringer, Graham Campbell, Mr Ronnie Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stuart, Ms Gisela 299 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 300

Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Weir, Mr Mike Mrs Laing: Once again, I bring to the Chamber the Tami, Mark Whiteford, Dr Eilidh apologies of the hon. Member for Nottingham North Thomas, Mr Gareth Whitehead, Dr Alan (Mr Allen), the Chairman of the Select Committee on Thornberry, Emily Williams, Hywel Political and Constitutional Reform, for his absence. Timms, rh Stephen Williamson, Chris He is, unfortunately, unable to be here, but I assure hon. Trickett, Jon Winnick, Mr David Members that he is probably watching proceedings and Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Turner, Karl that he will be better soon. He is still carrying out his Twigg, Derek Wishart, Pete duties as Chairman, but it is difficult for him to be here Umunna, Mr Chuka Woodcock, John in the Chamber. Vaz, rh Keith Wright, David Vaz, Valerie Tellers for the Noes: I am pleased to move the amendment tabled by the Walley, Joan Phil Wilson and Select Committee, or at least some members of it. It Watts, Mr Dave Lilian Greenwood concerns the House’s procedure for determining the way in which an early election can be called. I, personally, Question accordingly agreed to. do not support its wording and I shall not insist on putting it to a vote, and if others do so, I shall not vote Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. for it. There is nothing wrong with that, as I am merely moving it. It forms an important part of the Select Clause 2 Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill and, as such, it should be put before the Committee so that it can be properly discussed. EARLY PARLIAMENTARY GENERAL ELECTIONS The amendment reflects some of the arguments that Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I beg to were heard during the Select Committee’s inquiry into move amendment 33, page 1, line 22, leave out from ‘if’ the Bill. I simply wish to ensure that hon. Members to end of clause and add have the chance to examine these important issues. The amendment proposes an alternative way of bringing ‘on an address presented to Her Majesty by the House of Commons praying that a day be the polling day for an early parliamentary about what the Government seek to achieve in clause 2. general election, Her Majesty appoints this day by proclamation It does not oppose the Bill’s aims in any way, but simply to be the polling day for such an election. proposes an alternative that hon. Members should consider. (2) No motion shall be made for such an address except by the As an alternative form, the amendment would have Prime Minister acting with the agreement of— three advantages. First, it would avoid the risks involved (a) the Leader of the Opposition; and in implementing the Government’s proposal that a two (b) each member of the House of Commons who at the thirds majority should be required for a vote to have time of the motion being made is the registered effect. Secondly, it would avoid what the Committee leader of a registered party that received more than described as the “uncertain”consequences of the provisions 20 per cent. of the total votes cast at the previous in the Bill on motions of no consequence—[Laughter.] parliamentary general election. That was a visual rather than a grammatical problem, (3) An early parliamentary general election shall not otherwise and if the Committee will forgive me, I shall try again. I take place. meant to say motions of no confidence, which would (4) Subsection (1) applies for the purposes of the Timetable in include the possibility of a Government rule 1 in Schedule 1 to the Representation of the People “subverting the purpose of the Bill by tabling and voting for a Act 1983. motion of no confidence in itself in order to trigger an early (5) In this section— general election without the need for a super-majority.” “Leader of the Opposition” means the person who is Thirdly, the amendment would largely deal with the the Leader of the Opposition in the House of concern of the Clerk of the House, articulated to the Commons for the purposes of section 2 of the Select Committee, that this part of the Bill would Ministerial and other Salaries Act 1975; infringe the House’s “exclusive cognisance” over its own “registered leader”, in relation to a party, means the proceedings—its right to decide for itself how its business person registered as that party’s leader in accordance should be done, and the concomitant principle that the with section 24 of the Political Parties, Elections courts will not interfere. When the Clerk told us of his and Referendums Act 2000; concerns, we shared them, so tabling the amendment “registered party” means a party registered in a register allows us to consider those real and well-founded concerns. of political parties maintained by the Electoral I am aware that other amendments that we shall discuss Commission in accordance with section 23 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums this afternoon would deal with the situation in different Act 2000.’. ways, but amendment 33 proposes a simpler way of getting around those concerns. It would ensure that an The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel early general election could take place only with cross-party Evans): With this it will be convenient to discuss the support. following: Amendment 21, page 2, line 2, leave out ‘early’ and Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I insert ‘immediate’. am sorry to intervene at such an early stage of my hon. Amendment 4, page 2, leave out lines 3 to 7. Friend’s comments, but I notice that proposed new subsection (2)(b) states that Amendment 34, in clause 3, page 2, line 28, leave out ‘(6)’. “each member of the House of Commons who at the time of the motion being made is the registered leader of a registered party Amendment 35, in clause 4, page 3, line 15, leave that received more than 20 per cent. of the total votes cast at the out ‘(6)’. previous parliamentary general election.” 301 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 302

[Mr Richard Shepherd] made from time to time by Conservatives in Scotland? The point made by the hon. Member for Dunfermline Those are the people who are supposed to decide whether and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) might hold: the there will be a confidence motion. What does my hon. proposals could lead to the exclusion of the solitary, Friend feel about the fact that the proposal will disfranchise lonely Scottish Conservative figure on the Government the representatives of between 3.5 million and 4 million Benches. people? Mrs Laing: It is kind of the hon. Gentleman to stand Mrs Laing: I appreciate my hon. Friend’s point, and I up for my right hon. Friend, as I do frequently, but my find myself in some difficulty. I am happy to respond to right hon. Friend is not, of course, the leader of a it, but of course I agree with it. I am proposing the political party in the House. The Prime Minister is amendment not because I am passionate about it, but leader of the Conservative party, with a large proportion simply so that the Committee can discuss it. He is right of the popular vote throughout the country behind to raise one of the issues that should be discussed. I take him, and undertakes that task very well indeed. it that he means people who are represented by parties such as the nationalist parties. In that respect, if the Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I am filled amendment were accepted by the Committee and by the with admiration at the extent to which the hon. Lady is Government and if it became part of the Bill, I would managing to disagree with herself. Could she return to find myself wishing further to amend it, to the effect the question put by the hon. Member for Aldridge- that the parties concerned should be those that received Brownhills (Mr Shepherd), and the legitimate point more than 20% of the vote in the nation in the United that there will be parties that receive significantly less Kingdom where their candidates stood for election. I than the threshold that she proposes, and will thus have hope that answers my hon. Friend’s question. However, no voice in the process? That cannot be democratic. I do not think we need to go into that in much greater detail. Mrs Laing: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely The amendment provides that an early general election right. He is right, too, in his first point: would take place only when the House agreed by a simple majority to a motion in the name of the Prime “Frailty, thy name is woman.” Minister, tabled with the agreement of the Leader of I can disagree with myself or anyone else when called to the Opposition and the leader of any political party do so. If it is my duty, I can be—well, I think we will that had received more than 20% of the national vote at leave that aside. the previous general election, with the extra proviso that I have just added in response to my hon. Friend’s Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Methinks the lady well-made point. doth protest too much.

2.15 pm Mrs Laing: I appreciate that line from Shakespeare, too. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): The hon. Lady may not be aware of this, but my The right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) recollection is that the Scottish Conservatives did not is correct. There is some difficulty with the arithmetic receive 20% of the vote in Scotland at the last general threshold set out in the amendment, but there is also a election. Is she saying, therefore, that the Under-Secretary matter of principle, and on this point I will argue with of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for myself—or rather I will, as an individual, disagree with Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) the relevant part of the Select Committee report. I would not be able to take part in that process? think the correct democratic process is to consult the House as a whole, not merely the leaders of particular Mrs Laing: No, not at all. I appreciate the political parties in the House. There is then a problem in defining point that the hon. Gentleman seeks to make, but that how the democratic process should work when the would make no difference because the Conservative House is considering consulting the leaders of political party throughout the United Kingdom as a whole parties. If there was a party that had only one Member, obtained considerably more than 20% of the popular one leader and a very small proportion of the vote, it vote, and in some places, such as Epping Forest—I am would be ignored and that does not quite work. very pleased to say—a mere 54%. The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly good point, but it would be a pity to Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): I commend take up the time of the Committee looking in detail at the hon. Lady for the excellent job that she is doing in the percentages involved. My purpose in putting the putting forward an amendment with which she is not in issue before the Committee is to address the serious entire agreement. As she told the House, she is making concerns relating to exclusive cognisance, which were it on behalf of the Select Committee, of which I am also put to the Select Committee by the Clerk, whose opinion a member, and it expresses the concern that we heard on the matter we take very seriously. The Committee, from the Clerk about the way in which the Government’s too, should esteem the Clerk’s opinion and recognise his proposals might be subject to challenge in the courts, concerns, and this is an opportunity for Members to were they to go forward unamended. Will she join me in consider them. hoping that when the Minister responds, he will be able to give an assurance that the Clerk’s concerns have been Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) taken into account, and that any process that was (SNP): Is the hon. Lady aware of the various bids for followed under the Bill would not be subject to such independence from Conservatives south of the border challenge? 303 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 304

Mrs Laing: That is precisely the point. I thank the Prime Minister discharging a particular function, whereas hon. Gentleman both for putting it so succinctly, and under amendment 37 there could be circumstances in for putting his name to the amendment so that I am not which there was no Prime Minister to discharge that alone in disagreeing with myself. The point that he function. made is the crux of the matter, and I am sure the Minister has picked that up and has already considered Mrs Laing: Indeed. The hon. Gentleman is right. We it. I have every confidence that he will respond to it in a will debate amendment 37 in the next group, and I am short time. sure I will be called to order if I go into the details of it at this point. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): To reinforce Once again, I am not seeking, and the Select Committee the hon. Lady’s opposition to her own amendment, it was not seeking, to put forward a coherent succession should be pointed out that under proposed new of amendments in an attempt to change the Bill. I want subsection (2)(b) of the amendment, it is not necessarily to make sure that the Committee has an opportunity, as the case that the registered leaders of all the registered it has now had, to consider the issues of exclusive parties are Members of the House. The First Minister cognisance and the way in which the Standing Orders of of Scotland and the First Minister of Northern Ireland, the House will be affected by the Bill. That is why I hope who are the registered leaders, are not Members of the the Committee’s Chairman will excuse me arguing against House. That is another reason why the amendment is myself, while putting the points that the Select Committee flawed. wished to make here. It is important that the results of the pre-legislative scrutiny that we undertook should be Mrs Laing: Indeed. I am grateful to the right hon. put before the Committee. Gentleman. Once again, the details of proposed new subsection (2)(b)—that is not Sir Peter Soulsby: On pre-legislative scrutiny and the “To be, or not to be” point made by the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills —we are going back in again! I do not think we need (Mr Shepherd), does the hon. Lady agree that the any more Shakespeare, and I will be called to order if I fundamental problem with the amendment is that it was go any further down that road. tabled in the absence of time for adequate pre-legislative The matters identified by the right hon. Gentleman scrutiny, and that it is very much a second-best? The would have to be considered in more detail if the point about the preference of the Clerk for the matter to amendment were to become part of the Bill. I predict be dealt with in the Standing Orders of the House that the Minister will not accept it. As I said, I hope not, ought to have been given more time and more consideration, because I would have to vote against it and as the House and there should have been an opportunity for the knows, I am uncomfortable voting against my Government Committee to consider that as an alternative to the and the Minister. The amendment does not have to amendment. become part of the Bill, but the points made to the Select Committee by the Clerk of the House are serious Mrs Laing: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is correct. I and important, and the House will wish to be reassured recognise that that is why he put his name to the that the Minister has considered them. amendment. It is a pity that we have not had an opportunity in some other way to go into these matters. However, I Mr Shepherd: But is not the difficulty for my hon. reiterate that the Committee has an opportunity now to Friend and those on behalf of whom she is promoting consider matters relating to exclusive cognisance and the amendment that they have put it in a statutory the Standing Orders. I hope the Committee will take form, whereas the Clerk’s solution was that it should be that opportunity, but I have every confidence that the in the form of Standing Orders of the House? To read Minister will also take the opportunity to reassure us. across is not possible. On the face of it, the amendment Amendment 33 is merely an alternative that I put before looks absurd, so I am puzzled why it is even before the the Committee for consideration. House. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Since my elevation Mrs Laing: Let me explain further. The Select Committee to the Back Benches six weeks ago, I have put a number rushed through its pre-legislative scrutiny process, because of supplementary questions by way of interventions. of the timetable for the publication of the Bill, Second This is the first time that I have spoken from the Back Reading and Committee. Inevitably, the Select Committee Benches in 23 years. had to take evidence and consider matters quickly and It is a delight to follow the hon. Member for Epping briefly. It is important that the issues considered by the Forest (Mrs Laing), who represents my home area, Select Committee are put before the House. I have every Loughton in Essex, where from a very early age I used confidence that the Minister will assure the House in to be sent out delivering leaflets and canvassing against due course that he and his colleagues have considered the local Conservative party, never to any effect. My all the points made in the pre-legislative scrutiny report mother continued to represent the area in which we by the Select Committee. lived, first on the district council and later on the town council, until she was in her 80s. Thankfully, she is still Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): This is not about alive. subsection (2)(b). If it would assist the hon. Lady in I have witnessed many occasions when a Member has arguing against her own amendment, does she recognise moved an amendment that they do not understand. that other amendments that she has tabled, such as Indeed, I can think of one occasion 30 years ago on the amendment 37, if accepted, would create a serious Finance Bill when I moved an amendment that I did not problem in relation to amendment 33? That rests on the understand—an embarrassment made worse by the fact 305 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 306

[Mr Jack Straw] As we know, that was precisely the reason why, miraculously, of all the numbers that the coalition that it was I who had drafted it. For the life of me, I partners could have chosen, they originally alighted on could not work out what it meant, although I am the trigger level of 55%, because it would have given pleased to say that officials in the Treasury, as it turned neither partner the ability to force an early general out—the Minister later showed me his briefing—had election against the wishes of the other. gone through all sorts of intellectual contortions to guess at that piece of total gibberish. Never before have Mr MacNeil: The right hon. Gentleman says that I heard an hon. Member from either side of the House there is no prospect of a general election for a number move an amendment with which they profoundly disagreed, of years, but may I mischievously suggest that he shows but I admire the way in which the hon. Lady very greater faith in the coalition partners than they show in loyally made the case for the group’s lead amendment themselves and each other? while ensuring that her own reservations about it were put on the record. Mr Straw: I would like to have such faith. My faith in the Conservative party’s ability to pursue its own interests and survival and to consume other, minor parties—mainly 2.30 pm ones beginning with “L”—is always high. My faith in The hon. Lady said something very important about the Liberal Democrat party’s ability to secure its own the Bill: the reason why the Select Committee ended up survival was never particularly strong and has completely with the amendment, which is difficult to follow in its plummeted following the coalition deal. Shortly after terms, was that it had “rushed through pre-legislative the election, a Conservative peer told me—literally licking scrutiny”. That is the responsibility not of the Committee, his lips at the prospect—of how he would happily but very much of the Government, who decided to push predict that the parliamentary Liberal Democrat party the Bill through for no reason that I can comprehend. would go the same way as previous Liberal parties, once they had been embraced by the suffocating hug of the I profoundly disagree with the Government’s timetable Conservative party, and disappear for a number of for the boundaries and AV referendum Bill, but, given decades into oblivion. I am glad to see that the the time scale involved, it is at least understandable why Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member they judge it necessary to push the legislation through. for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) is, if not quite licking The Bill before us is on fixed-term Parliaments, however, his lips, smiling in approbation at the prospect. and there is not the least prospect of an early general election at any time in the next three years. Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman neglects to mention the Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): Lib-Lab pact in the late ’70s, which I am sure he will My right hon. Friend is being slightly disingenuous. Is remember, and that the Liberals got through that unscathed. not the most obvious reason why the Bill is here, before us, that the coalition partners are worried that the other Mr Straw: But the pact was not with the Conservative one will welsh out? party. Sadly, in some ways, the Labour party is far less ruthless than the Conservative party when it comes to Mr Straw: Of course. I was going to come on to that, worrying about its own survival. I am happy to discuss but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for leading me the details and the highways and byways of the Lib-Lab down that path. There is no reason to rush through pact, because I worked as a special adviser, as they were legislation for a fixed-term Parliament, because, even if pompously called and, I think, still are, to the great we do not have the Bill, there is no prospect of a general Peter Shore at the time—and necessary it was, too. In election being called, in almost any circumstances, within those days, at least the Liberals had some sense of the next three years. which side they were on, but they have abandoned even that idea since. The Liberal Democrat and Labour parties were I shall speak specifically to amendment 4 in the name committed by their manifestos to the principle of a of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and many of fixed-term Parliament, but the Conservatives’ proposal my right hon. and hon. Friends, which would delete ran directly counter to that, because it stated that a clause 2(1)(c), the measure providing the two-thirds general election should be called within six months of trigger for a Dissolution. The hon. Lady made a slip of any change of Prime Minister, meaning that, if the the tongue that, as often with such slips, held a revealing Prime Minister had suddenly passed away or something truth. She talked of a motion of “no consequences”, else had happened to him and he was no longer in rather than a motion of no confidence, and, apart from office, we could have had a general election within a the fact that I object to the idea of special majorities in twelvemonth. the House, it seems to me that the trigger is wholly We know, however, that the structure of the Bill and redundant, unnecessary and, indeed, offends the role of the rush derive not from the pursuit of a sensible idea the House in holding the Executive to account. Now for which there is all-party support, but from narrow, that the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives have had partisan reasons related to the internal chemistry that to abandon the completely naked idea of a 55% trigger, both parties feared and, I think, still fear could be which would have enabled the most extraordinary explosive in difficult circumstances. circumstances to arise, they should abandon the provision before us, including the two-thirds trigger, altogether. Mrs Laing indicated assent. The provision was included in the Bill as a copy-out from sections 3 and 46 of the Scotland Act 1998. The Mr Straw: I am glad to have the hon. Lady’s Deputy Prime Minister first tried to make up the arguments endorsement. for the measure on the hoof, and somebody pointed out 307 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 308 to him that such a trigger existed in the 1998 Act. He The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of suggested that it was a completely rigid trigger, and that the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): Let me try to the only way in which an election for the Scottish help the right hon. Gentleman, because I do not believe Parliament could be called was by a two-thirds majority that he was here on the first day of Committee when we of every MSP. Closer examination of sections 3 and debated this matter, which is in clause 1. As we are now 46 of the 1998 Act shows that that is simply not the on clause 2, I do not want him to find himself out of case, however. order. Section 3 does, indeed, provide for an early election if Mr Straw: I am sure that that is a matter for the “two-thirds of the total number” Chair, but I was simply trying to provide a comprehensive of MSPs vote for one or, as subsection (1)(b) goes on to answer to the hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell state, if (Alec Shelbrooke). “any period during which the Parliament is required…to nominate If we have a fixed-term Parliament, then of course one of its members…as First Minister ends without such a the power of the Prime Minister to call an election is nomination being made.” very significantly modified. I am concerned about the Under section 46, the First Minister’s nomination is by rights of this House. This House works by passing a simple majority. If it transpires that nobody in the legislation, and all other matters, on the basis of votes Scottish Parliament can command a simple majority, in by a simple majority. If we had a written constitution, other words that no confidence in either party is declared which I am not against, we could have a separate debate and the Government in Scotland cannot continue, there about whether there should be some means or other of is by virtue of that fact an election, and that is entirely entrenching certain basic provisions. We are doing that right. in practice for some, but not others, by way of referendum, and for some, but not others, by way of convention and Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I am cross-party consensus. Meanwhile, however, regarding listening carefully to the right hon. Gentleman, and I how this place works and good governance, we operate want to push him on the points that he is making. The on the basis of a simple majority. possibility of a no-confidence vote still exists in the Bill, What we should be doing in the Bill is laying down a and if a Government could not be formed in 14 days we fixed term—I would prefer it to be four years, but it is would go to a general election. Would he prefer the going to be five—and then accepting the reality that power to call a general election to remain solely in the circumstances could arise in which a Government of gift of the Prime Minister or in the gift of this House? the day lost the confidence of the House. There is no alternative to that. No new Prime Minister could suddenly Mr Straw: I am in favour of a fixed-term Parliament, pop up and regain the confidence of the House. That although I would have wished it to be four years. So, being the case, there has to be an election, as happened too, did the Liberal Democrats wish it to be four years. after four and a half years of the ’74 to ’79 Government. Indeed, they spelled that out in a document dated It seems to me that those should be the only circumstances 10 May 2010 headed “Recovery and Renewal”, which that should trigger an early election. I do not want there contained their proposals in the coalition talks for what to be provision whereby, by some method or another, became the coalition agreement. I am indebted not to whether it is by a majority of a half, 55% or 67.5%, a the department of open government in the Liberal package of Members can be got together in order to Democrat headquarters for providing wider sight of hold a general election. Nor do I think that those this, because whatever they think about the Freedom of provisions would ever be used, because they are so Information Act 2000, they certainly do not apply it to complicated. There is no point in our passing legislation themselves, but to the New Statesman and its website. that has no significant purpose. For greater accuracy, however, I have a copy here. Mr MacNeil: I am genuinely listening with an open It says: mind to what the right hon. Gentleman is saying about “Immediate legislation to…set the date of the next election for a simple majority in Parliament. However, how can we June 2014, and establish”— control a Prime Minister who has a majority in the House and whips his party to vote for his will? How can Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Ah! we maintain the power of the Parliament when the Prime Minister controls parliamentarians through the Whips? Mr Straw: I will repeat that because I know that my 2.45 pm hon. Friend must have misheard it: “Immediate legislation to…set the date of the next election for Mr Straw: The hon. Gentleman raises an important June 2014, and establish the principle of four-year fixed term point as to whether a Prime Minister anxious for a Parliaments in future.” general election could engineer a vote of no confidence. [Interruption.] The Deputy Leader of the House is Even if these provisions stand as they are in the Bill, mumbling from a sedentary position. If he thinks that I that would still be a technical possibility. have misread that, I am extremely happy to be corrected. Mr MacNeil: It would be less likely. However, it ill behoves the Liberal Democrats—I am sorry, I almost said the Conservatives: that was a Freudian Mr Straw: No, it would not. There is nothing in slip—and, particularly, the Deputy Prime Minister to paragraph (c) that would, in law, prevent a Prime Minister suggest that a five-year term is a matter of principle, as from being party to an arrangement to secure his own opposed to a four-year term, when they proposed a demise and go for a general election. If these provisions four-year term and agreed to a five-year term only as a go through, there will be nothing, in law, that can be result of some rather scrubby back-stairs deal. done about that theoretical possibility. 309 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 310

[Mr Straw] The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper): This is not a fancy tactic—I would not know Professor Robert Hazell, in evidence to the Lords one if I saw one, although if I did I am sure I would Constitution Committee, made a very pertinent comment have learned it from the right hon. Gentleman. It is very on this point when he said that political incentives straightforward. We decided that if there were a general should prove a force for stability. Whatever may have view in the House that there should be an early election, been appropriate in Germany in one very unusual case the House should have the power to cause one. where the Chancellor did indeed arrange to move a The right hon. Gentleman gave the example of Germany. motion of no confidence in his own Government, the The reason why the Government there engineered a prospect of a Prime Minister of this country coming to vote of confidence was because there was no other the House to move a motion of no confidence in his mechanism for an early election. If we were to remove own Administration without suffering immediate popular our provision, then if there were a general view in the and parliamentary derision, and a significant loss of political classes and in the country that there should be votes at the poll that would then follow, is fanciful. an early election, the only way of having one would be for the Government to engineer a vote of no confidence. Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I might have expected That would not be very sensible or very honest. that the right hon. Gentleman would hit the nail on the head. He is really talking about the great damage that lies within these provisions—namely, that they are in Mr Straw: We need to speak about possibilities in the defiance of the democratic mandate. This is about real world. The only example in recent times that I can Whips and patronage; it has nothing to do with the think of when a Prime Minister has wanted to call an people outside. My only suggestion—it is not a criticism— election of choice, without any necessity due to his would be that he may want to qualify his reference to parliamentary majority, is that of Edward Heath in the impact on this House by talking about the impact January 1974. There was no way he would have got a on our electoral and democratic system and thereby the two-thirds majority in favour of a dissolution. In my damage done to the people of this country. view, the country as a whole and the Conservative party would have been saved a great deal if there had not been Mr Straw: I accept what the hon. Gentleman says an early dissolution at that point. I simply say that if we and thank him for the compliment. are to have fixed-term Parliaments, which is a good idea but will have consequences, we must ensure that a I have a number of rules that I try to follow in Government can get booted out only if a motion of no politics, one of which is that fancy tactics never work. confidence is passed. This is a fancy tactic. I am sorry to say—it is not that I have anything personal against them—that one can see the Liberal Democrats, who were, as described by one Chris Bryant: Is there not one other very significant of their members, a perpetual Opposition think-tank difference between the drafting of the Scotland Act 1998 until they suddenly and unexpectedly found themselves and of this Bill? In Scotland, the process involves in government, thinking up this wheeze on the basis considerable consultation with wider civic society and that because it had happened in Scotland and, no all the political parties, because it was concluded that doubt, in Latvia or Leichtenstein, it would work here. the electoral system should virtually guarantee that one However, we have a more direct system of democracy; political party would never enjoy a majority. That is we may criticise, and I hope that we do. [Interruption.] very different from the situation here. I hear someone referring to Scotland. I happen to think, on reflection, that the relevant section in the Mr Straw: My hon. Friend makes a very important Scotland Act is redundant, but different considerations point. applied at the time. One consideration—I mean this in no disobliging way to Scottish colleagues of all parties—is Mr Cash: Following the Minister’s intervention, may that the Scottish Parliament is a creature of this House, I take the liberty of correcting a point that was made legally, whereas we have to be responsible for our own regarding the German situation? Under the German rules. constitution—a written constitution, of course—a two- thirds majority must be in each house, whereas the Bill’s Mr MacNeil: Thanks for the SNP Government, then. provision applies only to the House of Commons. In addition, and more importantly, it must be two thirds of Mr Straw: It is the first time that I have ever been all those who vote in the division in question, not two thanked for anything by a member of the Scottish thirds of all seats. That is a very important difference. National party. I hope that next April and May it says on every leaflet how deeply grateful the SNP is for the possibility and opportunity to serve in a Scottish Mr Straw: I accept that, and the history of the Government and to enjoy all the rewards that have German constitution is very different from the history come its way from the money that the British people, of of ours, even though to a large extent we wrote it. all parties, have provided. I will finish where I began, by referring to the explanation by the hon. Lady of the amendment that she moved, The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means: with which she does not agree. She pointed out that that Order. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had some was a consequence of her Committee having to rush rules. Could he have another rule, which is to speak to through pre-legislative scrutiny. I sat on the Front Bench the amendments in the group? for part of the debates on the Bill, and I have yet to hear any convincing explanation from the Minister as to why Mr Straw: I am sorry that I digressed, Mr Speaker. they had to rush the Bill through. 311 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 312

Mr MacNeil: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree My amendment 4 is based on a simple point of that the higher the percentage of parliamentarians required principle, namely that a motion can be passed by a to trigger an election, the less likely it is that any Prime simple majority of one, as has been the case from time Minister will call an election of choice, because it will be immemorial—from the very inception of our parliamentary more difficult for them? process in what is sometimes described as the “mother of Parliaments”. That is now being changed in a manner Mr Straw: If a Prime Minister really wanted to call that will seriously alter the method whereby a Government an election of choice, they would not worry about the may fall. two-thirds majority requirement, because they would The merits of the various amendments, such as be very unlikely to get it. They would instead go for a amendment 33 and my amendment 4, may differ. However, motion of no confidence. mine, which has been supported—without my By legislating for a fixed-term Parliament, we will encouragement, I have to say—by the Leader of the establish a clear political norm that Parliaments last for Opposition and therefore by the Opposition themselves, five years. Leaving aside the argument about whether has the merit of simplicity and maintaining the status the term should be four or five years, I happen to quo. Why have I tabled this amendment? It is because I support that principle, and I believe that is where the object to the new-fangled idea that an early election British people are. However, if the confidence of the would result from a motion, perhaps proposed by the House is lost, or the Government of the day simply give Opposition, any MP or even the Government themselves, up and vote for a motion of no confidence, there must that requires—this is contrary to all constitutional precedent be an election. In the absence of that, there should not. and history since our Parliament first sat representing I have arranged to go and sit in Westminster Hall at the electors of this country—the support of two-thirds 4.30 pm to listen to a debate on a matter of interest to or more of those eligible to vote as Members of Parliament. all Members from east Lancashire. If this debate is not In other words, we are talking about seats and not the concluded by then, I hope I may be excused. persons present in the House of Commons. That is a profound and dangerous doctrine. Mr Cash: The Chamber is very empty, considering the significance of what is being done by clause 2. In a way, that reflects the decline of this Parliament, which 3pm some of us believe strongly needs to be rejuvenated, not Graham Stringer: I profoundly agree with the hon. on the basis of protestations of power being returned to Gentleman. Are there not two very offensive things the House, as we read in our manifesto, but in the about this proposal? It means that hon. Members of reality of how legislation is introduced. this House are equal apart from when there are votes The clause is the turn of the screw by the coalition for a Dissolution; if a Member is voting in a minority, into our democratic system of government, which, at its their vote is worth more. Even more strange and offensive essence, is about the individuality and votes of conscience is that if a vote were to take place now, the electorate of of MPs, irrespective of the Whips and the patronage Oldham East and Saddleworth would be enfranchised, system. It creates a permanent constitutional change when they are not enfranchised for any other vote in the through a passive, silent revolution—the most silent House. Such a situation is absurd and offensive. revolution since our Parliament began. It is being done without a mandate of any kind for any party, in any Mr Cash: The hon. Gentleman’s point is extremely manifesto, in any part of the political system. sensible and full of common sense, which is what this Bill lacks. This is about something else; it is not about Tristram Hunt: Is the hon. Gentleman as shocked as I the manner in which our democratic system functions. am by the new constitutional principle that we are It is about something completely different and I will hearing from the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation come to that in a moment. and Skills—that the manifestos upon which individual Members of Parliament were elected no longer mean Mark Durkan: Does the hon. Gentleman not think anything, because the coalition agreement somehow that his case against idea of a special weighted majority supersedes everything that they were elected to stand for? for Dissolution in this House would be more credible if he had not previously proposed amendments to the The First Deputy Chairman: Order. That is not part Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill of the amendments before us, so Mr Cash, could you that required a threshold of support for any referendum restrict yourself to the amendments, please? on the alternative vote? He supported other amendments Mr Cash: What I am saying, Mr Evans, is that the as well that required not just a threshold that related to clause is being introduced without a mandate, using those who voted, but to the total number on the electorate. Parliament and patronage to undermine Parliament Is there not some hypocrisy in the argument he makes itself, not only now but in future. The voters, who have today? reposed their trust in us as MPs, are being severely damaged by what is being done today. As for the future, Mr Cash: I am more than delighted to reply to the to quote T. S. Eliot’s “Burnt Norton”: hon. Gentleman. Sparring with him always causes me “Time present and time past great amusement. As for what he says, there is a substantial difference. The threshold amendment that I moved on Are both perhaps present in time future the other Bill was to do with the threshold of a number And time future contained in time past. of people who would participate in the election, and not If all time is eternally present what was going on in this House. It was not even related All time is unredeemable.” to the question of the threshold of those who voted yes, So is this act of constitutional vandalism. as in the Scotland Act 1998 and the amendment of 313 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 314

[Mr Cash] Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): When we talk about the law of unintended consequences, George Cunningham, the then Member for Finsbury which applies big time to the provisions of the Bill, will and Islington, so there is a significant difference. I am my hon. Friend not apply that in his mind to what is talking about the trust that is given to us in this House happening in Ireland at the moment? There is a and the manner in which we discharge it. constitutional crisis that requires the Prime Minister, in The coalition originally proposed 55%, but that was honour, to put an issue to the electorate for a general so manifestly absurd that the coalition agreement was election. This Bill would preclude the Prime Minister then torn up and the figure was replaced with two from doing a similarly honourable thing in this country. thirds. If not 55%, why two thirds? The Scottish Parliament—I am using this analogy because it has Mr Cash: My hon. Friend with his customary originality already been raised, but I think that it is completely brings into play a contemporary example. Imagine a irrelevant—does not form Her Majesty’s Government. two-thirds rule being applied in respect of Mr Cowen at Decisions in time of war, a Finance Bill or any of the this moment. Be in no doubt, there would be riots in the other great levers of power are issues are determined, streets of Dublin. This is an essential question about the and will continue to be determined, by the United irresponsible manner in which this power could be used Kingdom Parliament. One such great exercise of power to induce results that are fundamentally undemocratic. at a most important time was the confidence motion of Mr Straw: It is good to see you in the Chair, Mr Hoyle. 10 May 1940, which was passed, as it happened, by the I defer to you as ever. Government, and it led to the demise of Neville Chamberlain’s Government, because everyone knew he I understand the Minister’s point that these provisions had to go. I do not regard the Scottish parliamentary relate not to a motion of no confidence but to other experience as relevant. If not two thirds, why not 75%, motions for an early Dissolution. Given, too, the poor 60% or any other number that Harry Potter’s wand definitions of what a motion of no confidence is, we might conjure out of thin air? could anticipate a situation in which a Government who wish to cling on to power, even though they lack a Mr Straw: Will the hon. Gentleman speculate on simple majority, could dodge and weave—because they what he thinks would have happened if the two-thirds determine the business of the House—for quite a period rule had applied in May 1940? and ensure that the motion that went before the House was tabled under clause 2(1)(c) requiring a two-thirds Mr Cash: Absolutely. I entirely agree with the right majority in the hope of buying themselves a little time. hon. Gentleman. Furthermore, there was the motion of If this provision was not in the Bill, the choice between no confidence in the Callaghan Government in 1979, in going to the end of the period or having an early which the numbers of votes were 310 against 311. The election would be much more stark. result of that vote may have been a matter of satisfaction for the Conservative party, but I am sure that it would Mr Cash: The right hon. Gentleman demonstrates not have been to others. However, if the two-thirds rule why many people thought that he was one of the had been in operation, there would not have been a foremost leaders of the House of Commons. He change in Government and that would have been a understands the mechanics that lie behind such questions. disaster for the country. Precisely what he has just said could easily happen. Indeed, many other things are likely to be conjured out Mr Harper: I am listening very carefully to my hon. of thin air by the wave of a magic wand of the kind that Friend. I think that he is confusing the two different only Harry Potter seems able to use. processes in the Bill. There is provision for having an early election if the Government lose a vote of no Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): confidence. That is by a simple majority, as now, and it I cannot understand how Ministers can argue that the is not changed. The other provision is an extra power Bill takes power away from the Prime Minister and for the House of Commons, which it does not have gives it to the House of Commons. In 1979, the intention today, for two thirds of MPs to vote for an early of the provision would have been to prevent the House election. We are not in any way, changing the ability of causing a general election. The Prime Minister would a Government to be held to account by having to have a have been in the driving seat, with 14 days to cook up simple majority. some kind of new deal to stay in power. How is that taking power away from the Prime Minister? Mr Cash: It is only because I have not completed my remarks that my hon. Friend’s intervention seems Mr Cash: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is understandable. I do not dispute the fact that a vote of such a shame that more people are not here to hear confidence by a majority of one would apply in the some of the criticisms that are being made of the Bill. circumstances described in the clause, but—this is the We are not criticising it because we want to be difficult other side of that equation—we then get into the question or because we are the awkward squad; we are criticising of the 14 days and the shenanigans that would follow it because it is a profound constitutional issue. The with all the Whips and other people manoeuvring around provision is intended to be permanent, not a will-o’-the-wisp to guarantee that the vote of confidence would be measure that will last a few months, and it will induce secured. We go back to my main point: it is the power of permanent constitutional change—it is a constitutional patronage of the Whips and the determined and ruthless revolution, but a silent one, as I said. exercise of that power that lies behind this proposal. A majority of one is at least understandable and can That is my main objection to the whole thing irrespective be calculated. I referred to the German example. Their of the fact that there is no mandate for these provisions measure operates on the basis of those in the House from any political party. itself when the vote is taken, which raises a series of 315 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 316 questions about the manner in which the Government’s the power to dissolve the House whenever he chooses to proposals would operate. If we have a provision that is do so in a perfectly open way. If my hon. Friend is based on a fixed number of seats, it will not matter at all happy with that, that is fine, but that is not our proposal. whether people turn up. Why bother with a Parliament in those circumstances? What would be the point if it Mr Cash: I understand to a degree where my hon. was simply a question of the number of seats? Who Friend is coming from, but I am afraid that I am not occupies them, what they think about things or whether attacking that constitutional position. I do not believe it they have a view to express would not matter. That is an necessary to take the power to dissolve from the Prime outrageous proposition, and I cannot believe that my Minister—that power is based, as it were, on his democratic hon. Friend the Minister is prepared to subscribe to mandate—and give it to the Whips to engage in their such arrant rubbish. The reference in the Bill to the shenanigans in the 14 days following a no confidence number of seats carries an analogy to the Rump Parliament motion, as the right hon. Member for Blackburn said. to extremes. The proposal is based not on any constitutional Mr Harper: Will my hon. Friend make that clear? Is principle but the expediency of propping up, if necessary, he saying that the intention of amendment 4 is to ensure the “temporary alliance”, which is how the “Oxford that the Prime Minister retains the power to seek a English Dictionary” describes a coalition. The measure, dissolution? I ask that because Opposition Members for all I know, may run foul of the internal contradictions say that they are in favour of fixed-term Parliaments, of putting two parties together that, in certain but not albeit there is a debate over whether the term should be all respects, have entirely contrary views on matters of four or five years. My contention is that the Opposition’s fundamental constitutional and political importance, support for amendment 4 effectively drives a coach and such as the alternative vote, which a number of my hon. horses through their support for fixed-term Parliaments, Friends and I voted against. We are Conservative, and because it would give the power to dissolve directly we believe that the alternative vote is the wrong way to back to the Prime Minister. go. We believe in first past the post and in a simple majority, because they account for the individual conscience Mr Cash: The Opposition’s thinking is not a matter of hon. Members, and not merely the number of seats. for me. I happen to believe that our present constitutional Dare I even mention the European question, because arrangement should be sustained. It gives me no pleasure that is also part and parcel of the shift in the fundamental to know that the Opposition will vote with me on balance of power away from this House? amendment 4. Their reasoning does not matter; what matters is the constitutional principle that I am advancing. The coalition agreement illustrates that point. At the heart of that arrangement, there are some destructive Mr Straw: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for and some constructive proposals, and some are unworkable. his generosity in giving way. May I illustrate the point For example, under the agreement, Liberal Democrats that he and I have made in answer to the Minister’s have a right or duty to abstain on important matters. perfectly reasonable point? At first blush, it appears The 55% rule proposal was abandoned not only because that the provisions of clause 2(1)(c) strengthen the role of its absurdity, but because of opposition to it. The of the House against the Prime Minister. However, I reason for the two-thirds rule is that it will be easier for remember what happened in 1979. I was a candidate at the Whips to fulfil their masters’ wishes. Their power the 1979 election, so I was no longer working for the would be imperilled if a motion were conditional merely Government, but I was in very close touch with people on a majority of one. That is the crunch. for whom I had worked for three and a half years and The principle of the majority of one proves my point, knew a lot about what was happening. There was a as the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) crisis over the outcome of the Scottish Assembly indicated in an intervention. I responded to him by referendum, and the Commons needed an occasion on referring to the 1979 Division, when there was a majority which it could give vent to that feeling, because the of one. I find no merit whatever in moving away from various smaller parties had to have their positions put the virtues of a simple majority, although I doubt that on the record. Had there been a provision in legislation the Leader of the Opposition, who signed amendment for an early dissolution by two-thirds majority, the 4, would be so firmly enthusiastic for Margaret Thatcher’s Government of the day— victory in 1979. However, I repeat that I have not tabled that amendment for the sake of the wishes of the The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Opposition. I simply believe that we adhere to the Order. Interventions must be shorter. I understand that simple majority. the point has to be made, but I would be grateful if we could get to it quickly. 3.15 pm Mr Straw: In that situation, the Government of the Mr Harper: My hon. Friend has mentioned the 1979 day would have worked with the smaller parties and example twice now. As I said, the Bill would not change said, “You can have your shout on the two thirds the situation when there is a motion of no confidence in majority, and in return, we’ll give a bit of extra cash to any way. If that position happened now—[Interruption.] Northern Ireland,”and so on. That would have happened. If the Government lost a Division on such a motion by Therefore, the motion of no confidence would probably one vote, the situation would be the same, but the 14 never have been tabled, and even if it was, it probably days for the formation of a Government makes things would have been lost. different. Amendment 4, by removing the two thirds majority rule, would effectively mean that anyone who Mr Cash: I understand that point, and the right hon. controls a majority in the House can have an election at Gentleman describes a sort of invitation to pork barrel will—it would effectively give back to the Prime Minister politics. 317 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 318

Mr Harper rose— Mr Shepherd: Well, Governments have resigned on the loss of such votes. Therefore, what constitutes a Mr Cash: The Minister is so determined to speak motion that arrives at that result? What my hon. Friend again that I am happy to give way to him. has been quoting were dates, not motions.

Mr Harper: I am simply participating in the debate. I Mr Cash: It is very rare that I say this, but I do not cannot agree with the right hon. Member for Blackburn agree with my hon. Friend about that, because although (Mr Straw) on his characterisation of the 1979 situation. those are dates, they are also about matters of huge The motion in March 1979 was not about giving vent to political significance to the country at the time. anything; it was very clearly about whether the House had confidence in Her Majesty’s Government. I assume Mr Shepherd: That applies to the Budget. that everyone who voted for it had a clear idea what would happen if it were carried. It was, and there were Mr Cash: Indeed, and my hon. Friend is right on that consequences. It states: point, because it is not just about the business; in my “That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government”, judgment, it is about the sense of feeling in the country and the outrage in the House about the policies that are so I cannot believe that anyone was confused about being pursued. what they were doing. Mr Jenkin rose— Mr Cash: I will now move on to the very question that is being discussed, which is motions of no confidence Mr Cash: I will give way to my hon. Friend for the and what they really mean. There are various permutations, last time. which are well described in the Library note, but the issue for me is basically this. In my belief—and according Mr Jenkin: It is worth reminding the Committee that to the House’s tradition and its conventions, which are the words on the Order Paper in May 1940 were “That now to be overtaken by statute—a majority of one this House do now adjourn”. should remain. However, in that 14-day period, with shenanigans worthy of Lord Voldemort and the servants Mr Cash: Indeed, but that was about the sense of of the Dark Lord, an attempt would be made to keep in outrage over what had been done. That could apply to a power a Government who had lost the confidence of Budget, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge- the House of Commons—that is, the representatives of Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) said, or to any other situation. the electorate. That attempt would keep the Government It could have applied to Suez or, for example, the Iraq on their feet, while the public would be left watching the war. For all those reasons, the confidence motion, in spectacle of streams of members of the Cabinet and whatever terms it is expressed, is just that: do those prospective members of the Cabinet from the Opposition voting in the House of Commons at the time, by a parties striding up and down Whitehall, in and out of majority of one, have a sufficient degree of confidence offices, all under the baleful influence of the Cabinet in the behaviour and policies of the Government? Secretary, as they tried to hatch yet another coalition agreement, no doubt based on very different principles Mr Shepherd: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s from those for which the electorate had voted, in accordance tolerance in giving way again, but the outcome of the with the parties’ respective manifestos or—dare I use vote in 1940 was the resignation of the Prime Minister, the words?—their promises. not the Government as a whole. Although the Government As to the question of what confidence motions actually went with him, they reformed themselves, so what happened are, they are various. In 1945 it was Churchill versus was not an electoral matter; it was the outcome of a Attlee, and the Government won. Then there was Attlee confidence motion in the individual who headed the against Churchill in 1952, and Gaitskell against Eden in Government. 1956, when the Government won again. There was also Wilson against Heath in 1972, on the European Mr Cash: I agree with my hon. Friend on that, but Communities Act, when there was thought to be quite a there was also the sense of outrage that was being lot of manoeuvring on the question of whether there expressed. As that occasion has been raised three times had been a free vote or not. I will not go down that already, let me mention in passing that, as it happens, it route now, but examples of where the Government have took place on the day that I was born, but there we are. lost confidence motions include the Liberal Government What does such innovation say about the coalition? It of 1895, the Baldwin minority Conservative Government certainly demonstrates its determination to stack the —note: minority Conservative Government—in 1924, cards firmly in favour of the coalition and the Whips. the MacDonald Government in 1924, when there was There may well be one third whom the coalition cannot again a dissolution, and, of course, the famous Callaghan take for granted or persuade, but I fear that that attitude defeat by Thatcher, by 311 votes to 310. is taking power away from Parliament—which, after all, is made up of the representatives of the people—and Mr Shepherd: I am getting increasingly impatient in not giving it back. If the same principle were followed one sense, but on the distinction between what is a for any other motion, Parliament would simply not be confidence motion and what is not, I put this proposition able to carry out its business. I fear that what is proposed to the Committee. If the Government lose the Budget, is not modernising, but is a reactionary measure. It is that is it. My understanding of our constitution is that not progress, but a step backwards, along the primrose that would be the end of the Government. path, undermining the constitutional principles that have governed our conventions and been tested over Chris Bryant indicated dissent. many centuries. The proposal has been conjured out of 319 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 320 thin air, for the ruthless purpose of maintaining power 3.30 pm irrespective of the consequences. In my opinion, it is a We invoke what people outside think, but they would great shame that it has been put forward on the proposition be astonished if they thought that the Members of that—as was said in the general election and at the Parliament, regardless of party labels, whom they send conference that took place recently—we are supposed to the House to represent them were able to pass a vote to be “Working together in the national interest”. I fear of no confidence in the Government, but not by what that on this Bill, on this matter, we are working together has been called a sufficient super-majority to make any against the national interest. difference. We would seem not to have been given additional powers, as the Minister seems to argue, but Mr George Howarth: Long before anybody else on to be impotent. That cannot be good for Parliament, for the Opposition Benches supported amendment 4, standing politicians and certainly not for any of us as individual in the name of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), I Members of Parliament. I am pleased to support the added my name to it. I listened carefully to what he amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Stone and I said. He used the terms “Whips” and “patronage” to hope hon. Members on both sides of the Committee describe what he believes lies behind the provisions in will support it in the Lobby if there is a Division. clause 2, which I think is just a shorthand way of saying that we are talking about monolithic party structures Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is a delight to see that, generally speaking, follow whoever happens to be the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) back leading at any given time, and the instruments of that in her seat. She introduced a new concept of votes of no are the Whips and patronage. consequence. On the Opposition Benches, it often feels as though every vote is one of no consequence, but we I am a party political creature. I would not be in this hope that with more support in the coming days, we will House under any title other than that of “Labour manage to turn that around. Member of Parliament”. However, at the same time, I believe that we are sent here to exercise our judgment, The hon. Lady said one important thing—[Interruption.] particularly on issues such as that we are discussing, She has doubtless said many important things, as the which, as the hon. Gentleman said, have not really been Minister rightly reminds me. In particular, she said that tested before the electorate. Fixed-term Parliaments she disagrees with the amendment she tabled, which and the alternative vote system were in our manifesto. was interesting. She also referred to the fact that her However, the provisions in clause 2 that he has discussed Committee had had virtually no time to do what she were in nobody’s manifesto, so I feel in no way obliged called pre-legislative scrutiny. In fact, I suggest that a to support them. far more sensible procedure for engaging in all legislation, and particularly that on constitutional reform, is to My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central publish the Bill in draft, send it to a Joint Committee of (Tristram Hunt) may correct me on this, but those who both Houses and provide an opportunity for evidence follow history, such as the hon. Gentleman, will know to be taken, and at the end of that process it can be that it was quite common in the early to mid-19th century brought to the House. That is not what has happened in for Governments to change and for votes of no confidence this case. She and others referred to the coalition as to be taken. In fact, quite often the country would go something of a matrimony, but the Book of Common for several weeks without an effective Government in Prayer states that holy matrimony should not be enterprised place. However, the difference then was that party or entered into political labels were almost meaningless: the Liberal party did not exist in the form that we later came to “unadvisedly, lightly, wantonly or to satisfy…carnal lusts.” know, while the Conservative party was a collection of My fear is that this part of the Bill has been entered into factions. unadvisedly, wantonly and to satisfy the lusts of the coalition partners who want to ensure that they remain In those days, it was possible for Governments to in power for as long as possible. change their leadership and even the coalition that supported that leadership without there necessarily being The process has been wrong, and I say gently to the a general election. We do not live in such circumstances Minister that in our debates last week he referred at the now, and it is important to be mindful of the arrangements last minute to consultation that he was going to engage that we put in place for the Dissolution of Parliament in with the devolved Administrations in Wales, Scotland or any other means by which to change a Government and Northern Ireland. I understand that he has written in mid-term. to one Member of the House about that, but he has not written to me, and he has not written to any other hon. Members who were involved in the Committee stage, so Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): In reality, if a I hope that he will take this opportunity to assure us Prime Minister commands a majority in the House of that he will write to us immediately. Commons, instead of seeking to obtain a two thirds majority in the House, will they not simply repeal or Mr Harper: Frankly, the point of order that the hon. amend the Bill? Gentleman raised last week was nonsense. He did not give me notice of it, so I was unable to respond. I Mr Howarth: My hon. Friend makes a typically good listened carefully to last week’s debate and responded to and well thought through point. I do not want to make it. I then made an announcement of Government policy a long speech, but the simple point—this is why I in this House at the Dispatch Box, which I thought was support the hon. Member for Stone—is that if the the usual way of conducting business. House decides by a simple majority that it has lost The following day, I wrote to the leaders of parties in confidence in the Government of the day, that should each of the devolved Assemblies, as I said I would. I did be enough. not put anything in those letters that I had not announced 321 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 322

[Mr Mark Harper] The aetiology of clause 2 is pretty straightforward. It comes from the coalition agreement. I know that the in the debate. I also wrote to the shadow Justice Secretary, hon. Member for Epping Forest is keen, for her own who leads on political and constitutional reform for the reasons of propriety, to stick to voting for proposals Opposition, to keep him properly informed. I placed that are in the coalition agreement. However, she has copies of all those letters in the Library. complete freedom in relation to today’s amendments, because these provisions are not mentioned in the The Chairman: Order. We should not be rehashing agreement. It states: previous points of order. We should be dealing with the “We will establish five-year fixed-term Parliaments. We will put amendment. I am sure that Mr Bryant wishes to do so. a binding motion before the House of Commons stating that the next general election will be held on the first Thursday of May 2015. Following this motion, we will legislate to make provision Chris Bryant: Yes, indeed. This is just about the for fixed-term Parliaments of five years. This legislation will also process and the fact that it has been the convention in provide for dissolution if 55% or more of the House votes in every Committee stage in which I have been involved for favour.” Ministers to write to all members of the Committee, I completely agree with the articles that were then and, when the Committee is sitting on the Floor of the written by several Members, the most impressive of House, to all those who have taken part in the debate. which was probably that by the right hon. Member for My point is that clause 2 has no electoral mandate. Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and published in Clause 1 has some degree of mandate, in that we had The Daily Telegraph. In it, he stated: proposed in our manifesto that there should be fixed-term “The requirement for a 55 per cent majority to dissolve parliament, Parliaments, and the Liberal Democrats had made a and thereby dismiss a government, dramatically reduces the ability similar proposal. I do not believe that there is a mandate of Parliament to hold the executive to account.” for a five-year fixed-term Parliament, as both political If that was true of a 55% requirement, it is even more parties had previously said that they were in favour of true of a 67% requirement. Moreover, that requirement four-year fixed-term Parliaments. Clause 2 has absolutely would involve 67% of not only those who voted but of no mandate from the electorate. Indeed, the proposals all the seats in the House, even those that were vacant at in it run directly counter to those in the Conservative the time and also, presumably, those of the Deputy manifesto, and to what the Prime Minister said as Speakers and the Speaker, who would presumably not Leader of the Opposition in relation to the reform of be allowed to vote. Those seats would therefore the power of Dissolution. He said that he would introduce automatically be included with those who had voted legislation to ensure that, should there be a change of against holding an early general election. Prime Minister as a result of the party in power changing There is absolutely no mandate for the provisions in its leader, there would be a general election within six clause 2. I believe that it will entrench the powers of the months, but that is not the proposal that we have before Executive, rather than releasing their grip on Parliament. us today. An important point has been made by several hon. Members, not least my right hon. Friend the Member Mr Jenkin rose— for Blackburn (Mr Straw), the former Home Secretary—I could list all his jobs as he has held almost every job in the Government apart from Prime Minister; perhaps Chris Bryant: Of course I will give way to the lion of that will come one day. They pointed out that the clause the right, as I believe he is now known. introduces a new super-majority, which is alien to the processes of this House. There has never been a super- Mr Jenkin: Lion, maybe. I should like to draw the majority provision. The provision is introduced by statute hon. Gentleman’s attention to the fact that the rather than through the Standing Orders, so again it is parliamentary Conservative party gave no mandate to the Executive forcing their will on the House rather the leadership of our party for a fixed-term arrangement than the House taking this forward. of any description. The parliamentary party was consulted about whether there should be a coalition, and whether Mr MacNeil: Philosophically, this change has come there should be a commitment to a referendum on the about because of the practice of Prime Ministers choosing alternative vote, but the question of a fixed-term Parliament to go to the country at a moment that suits them and was never mentioned. Nobody knew anything about it their political party rather than the country or anybody until it appeared in the coalition agreement. else. Margaret Thatcher did this and plenty of other Prime Ministers have done it. How does the hon. Gentleman Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. square the circle of getting away from that rotten practice That is true not only of his party but of the Liberal and moving towards a fairer and more equitable practice? Democrats, who said that they were in favour of a fixed-term Parliament although there was no reference Chris Bryant: The most important element of the Bill in their election material or manifesto, or in any of the as a whole is the introduction of a fixed term. As the speeches made by the now Deputy Prime Minister, to hon. Gentleman knows, I would prefer a four-year any provisions for determining when an election might period, but it is five years in the Bill. The presumption be held or for introducing a super-majority. When their should be in favour of a fixed term. It is absolutely right lordships consider this legislation, it is important that that the Prime Minister should no longer have the they bear in mind the fact that the conventions relating power to dissolve Parliament and that the Dissolution to matters that are adumbrated in a general election should rest solely with Parliament rather than with the manifesto simply do not apply in this case. There is Prime Minister. To achieve such a handing over of absolutely no electoral mandate for this provision. power, we also have to change the prerogative power to 323 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 324 prorogue Parliament. Otherwise, it would be perfectly and early elections and these have been a sustained part simple for a Prime Minister who wanted to ensure an of what we have put up with. I am not sure whether you early general election—for whatever set of reasons—to are going to allow a clause 2 stand part debate later. I bypass the two thirds majority required in subsection (1), note that you are saying no, but I hope it will be possible to engineer a vote of no confidence and then to prorogue to allow a degree of latitude so that we can consider all Parliament immediately so that no vote of confidence the elements of the clause. in another Government could be called. The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) observed that Governments had fallen by virtue of their Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman will be familiar Budgets’ being opposed. One of my arguments is that with the workings of this place, whereby a Prime Minister the whole concept of a no confidence motion is excluded could simply use his Whips to whip his party and secure from the Bill. It is not clear what counts as a no confidence a simple majority. How is that circle to be squared? We motion; nor is it clear, in the part of the Bill that we are could say that in one sense Parliament has the power, currently considering, what counts as a motion calling but in another sense it does not if the Prime Minister for an early general election. can use his Whips to dragoon his parliamentary party into having an election. [Interruption.] 3.45 pm Chris Bryant: The Deputy Leader of the House is Mr Shepherd: Might that lack of clarity be a mark of chuntering away. I think he is trying to talk to you, the wisdom of past generations? They knew when it had Mr Hoyle, because he keeps on saying that I am out of happened that a Government were not sustainable, and order and that I am not speaking to the right part of the they knew when it had not happened. The mood of the clause. Perhaps he could have his conversation with you House in relation to that of the country was an open privately. question. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) is absolutely right in one sense. We have Chris Bryant: I am not sure that that is true. It to achieve a balancing act. This House needs to exert its depended on the Crown—that is, the Government or power through its majority to hold the Government to Executive—retaining the power to dissolve Parliament. account and, if necessary, to sack the Government. In I do not think that a measure that was considered to be most circumstances, that has happened when a political a motion of no confidence in 1866—namely, party has splintered or when a leader of a party has “to leave out the words ‘clear yearly’ and put ‘rateable’ instead proved unable to control his or her troops—his, in most thereof”— cases—through the Division Lobbies. We have seen that happen with the Irish Home Rule Bill and with the would be considered to be one today, and I therefore Budget at different times, leading to a collapse of confidence think that it would be inappropriate for that power to in the Government on the Government side and the remain. subsequent fall of that Government. I think that we should still stick with that process. The Chairman: Order. The next set of amendments deals with no confidence motions. I think that the hon. In case hon. Members feel that in recent times motions Gentleman is in danger of jumping ahead, and I am of no confidence—and particularly successful motions sure that he does not want to do that. of no confidence—have been pretty rare, it is worth pointing out that we should look at a longer period of Grahame M. Morris: I am concerned less about hon. history than just the last few years if we are to set out Members’ definition of a confidence issue than about constitutional change that will stand the test of time. whether that definition would be acceptable to the court We have no way of knowing what will happen to the if a certificate were challenged. However, I accept that political parties, as presently constituted, in five, 10, that is the subject of a later clause. 15 or 20 years’ time. Looking back over the last 150 or so years, we find Chris Bryant: We will undoubtedly discuss the Speaker’s that no confidence motions have been used quite regularly certificate when we deal with later amendments. and have frequently led to the collapse of Governments. Lord North’s Government, for example, fell in 1782. The Government have relied for their provision on There was also a sustained period in which no confidence calling a general election on the fact that there are motions were common from 1885 onwards; indeed, similar provisions in the Scotland Act 1998. It is true there were two such motions in 1886, when first Lord that that Act provides for an early general election Salisbury’s Government and then Gladstone’s Government when, and only when, there is a super-majority among fell again on the issue of Irish home rule, which divided those voting. However, as I tried to explain to my right the Liberal party— hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, the two measures are completely different. The presumption in the Scotland The Chairman: Order. I am sure that the Committee, Act was that it would be virtually impossible for any like me, welcomes the history lesson, but we must stick one political party ever to have a majority in the Scottish to the amendments, from which we are drifting away. Parliament. Incidentally, the Act also contains a provision The hon. Gentleman may feel that he is in order, but he that is entirely different from the provision in clause 1: it is not. I would like him to come back to order, and it provides that the date of the next general election, if would also be helpful if he faced the Chair. there is one in Scotland, will not be changed at all. Moreover, the provisions in the Scotland Act mean Chris Bryant: I am grateful, Mr Hoyle. I will address that if there is no First Minister—which is the equivalent myself to you more directly. The point I am trying to of no one being able to gain a motion of confidence on make is that clause 2 deals with motions of no confidence a simple majority—a general election must follow in 325 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 326

[Chris Bryant] or prior to that, as current legislation still allows for the precise date of a general election to be set by royal any event. That, in my view, clearly invalidates the proclamation, which would obviously be on the basis of super-majority process, which I think will be used very advice from the Privy Council, and therefore would in rarely in the Scottish Parliament. practice come from the Prime Minister. The problem with the provision in clause 2 relating to Therefore, the Bill as currently drafted lacks clarity in a super-majority is that either it is profoundly dangerous this respect. That is why we have suggested that the because it removes Parliament’s power to hold the clause should refer to an “immediate” rather than an Government to account, and to be able to sack the “early” general election. That fits with amendments we Government or the Prime Minister, or it is otiose, have tabled to other provisions saying the power to because a Prime Minister who wanted to ensure an determine the precise date of the general election should early general election at a time of his or her own not be left to the Prime Minister, and that instead the choosing would simply engineer a motion of no confidence date should be set. or, for that matter—as there is no determinant for what counts as a motion of no confidence—table a motion of Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? confidence in which the Government then chose not to Chris Bryant: In a moment. vote. The Opposition would almost certainly vote against the motion of confidence, and an early general election Once the Speaker’s certificate has been certified or would follow. provided, the general election should be held on a specified date as provided for in legislation, rather than Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman mentioned Scotland. one decided elsewhere. An election called by the Scottish Parliament during the period of that Parliament would not necessarily reset Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman define precisely the clock. An election would still take place, say, a year what he means by “immediate” in this context? or two years later. I understand that here the clock Chris Bryant: Again, the hon. Gentleman is catching would be reset. There is clearly an incentive to go to the up with me; I explained that in my last sentence, but he country at different points which does not exist in had already sought to intervene. What I was trying to Scotland. say was that under amendments we have tabled to other parts of the Bill, the election would take place on the Chris Bryant: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for sixth Thursday after the day on which the Speaker had echoing a point that I made three minutes ago. I still issued the certificate, whereas the clause states that the agree with the point that I made three minutes ago, and general election will be held on the date provided for by I now agree with the hon. Gentleman, which is great. royal proclamation—I presume under the Great Seal—as We are gathering support in the debate, which is very advised by the Privy Council, and therefore, effectively, exciting. I hope that he will support the same amendments determined by the Prime Minister. I presume those as me. measures have been put in place so as to stick with the My problem with amendment 33 is that it places all current timetable for general elections, which is six days the power in the hands of the party leaders. That is a after Dissolution for the close of nominations and 11 profound problem, as I hope we are moving into a days after that for the day of poll, but perhaps the period when Parliament finds more opportunities to Minister will confirm whether that is the case. If we are take its destiny into its own hands. I hope various putting other provisions on to the statute book, there is measures that have already been introduced will help in no reason why we should not be able to provide in that, and will revitalise the role of Back Benchers and statute the precise day on which the general election therefore make it possible for not everything to be decided would take place. That is my definition of “immediate”. by the party leaders. That is an important principle, and The hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) was right in it is why we do not support the amendment—although I saying that he did not consult the Opposition in tabling realise that the hon. Member for Epping Forest will not his amendment. I have to confess that he got to the press it to a Division in any case. Table Office about 20 minutes before we did, so I am afraid that on this occasion we have had to row in Mrs Laing: I simply want to say that I agree with the behind him. Whereas we disagree on many issues, on hon. Gentleman; he makes a very good point. this issue we simply agree. Either the provision of a super-majority for the calling of an early general election Chris Bryant: I wonder whether I can carry the hon. is dangerous or, like Z, it is the unnecessary letter—it is Lady a little further into even greater acts of agreement. otiose and is not necessary in legislation. The hon. Bearing in mind the stricture she has set herself of not Gentleman’s amendment would remove the super-majority. opposing anything that is in the coalition agreement, It would return us almost exactly to the provisions of she should feel free to support us in respect of later the South African constitution and allow for an early amendments on the two-thirds majority, unless she has election on the basis of a simple majority, even though found some other reason not to do so. South Africa has fixed-term Parliaments, which have We have tabled one amendment to clause 2: been pretty much adhered to since 1994. amendment 21. The clause provides for the calling of an early general election, but it does not specify what Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend “early” means in that context. It does not state whether think that such arrangements make things more transparent the motion that could be moved in the House would to the public? Super-majorities are very opaque and are say, for instance, “This House calls for a general election not understandable in these matters, whereas what he is in the autumn of next year,” and if so whether that arguing for is much more transparent and understandable, means the general election would be held next autumn and much better. 327 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 328

Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I Mr Cash: In case there were any doubt about it, may I understand that for there to be a super-majority in this tell the House that I shall certainly be putting amendment 4 Parliament, 434 votes in favour would be required, to the vote? although that is before the Bill before the other place, the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Chris Bryant: In case there were any doubt about it, I Bill, comes into operation in an unamended form. We shall join the hon. Gentleman in the Division Lobby are talking about 434 out of the 650 seats at the moment. unless the Whips manage to get to him, which is very As I have said, the arrangement leaves some things unlikely. They rarely manage to get to him—he is an completely uncertain; I presume that the Speaker and undiscovered country beyond whose bourn no Whip the Deputy Speakers would not be allowed to vote. has ever returned, since we are doing “Hamlet” this afternoon. That brings us to another interesting point, which is that, as you will know, Mr Hoyle, under the Standing The Chairman: Order. It may help the hon. Gentleman Orders and the custom of this House, the Speaker and to know that the Chair will decide on which amendments the Chair do not vote unless there is an equality of the Committee may vote. votes. That is different from the arrangement in the other House, where the Speaker or the Chair of the 4pm Committee is able to vote twice. The commonly accepted provision, as stated in “Erskine May”, has then been as Chris Bryant: Of course, but I will not look for you to follows for the Speaker: join us in the Division Lobby, Mr Hoyle. The Government might say in their charming, elegant “it is usual for him, when practicable, to vote in such a manner as not to make the decision of the House final”. and smooth way that this is a hypothetical situation because the honest truth is that in all normal circumstances In a vote such as I am describing, there would not no Government and no Prime Minister would ever have been equality of votes, but if one side had got to choose to circumvent the power of the House on the 433 seats, would the Speaker be allowed to vote or not? two-thirds majority that would be needed to call an This is slightly complicated when there are 650 seats, early general election by enforcing a motion of no but if the number is reduced to 600, as suggested in the confidence. I echo the words of the Clerk of the House Government’s proposals in the other Bill, 400 seats in a memorandum on the Bill to the Select Committee would be the mark that we would have to reach. If the on Political and Constitutional Reform: there may be vote is on a knife-edge, would the Speaker and the little risk of an accident if one drives up the motorway Deputy Speakers, or the Chair of the Committee, be on the wrong side of the road at 4 o’clock in the allowed to vote on such a measure? Importantly, this is morning, but the impact if there were an accident is not just about the Speaker. If the vote were on a Budget likely to be very serious, and so although the risk of a and if we took the advice of the hon. Member for dispute about a vote to dissolve Parliament being argued Aldridge-Brownhills that in some situations a Budget out in the courts might be small if it were to happen, its decision or a financial decision would be considered a impact politically and constitutionally would be very motion of no confidence, the provision would relate not great. That is why I say to the Government that although to the Speaker, but to the Chairman of Ways and I understand how they have ended up with this Means or one of the other Committee Chairmen, who legislation—it is not that I detest every element of it, would be chairing. although I dislike the process and I dislike the use of the As my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe period of five years instead of four and so on—and (Nic Dakin) said, many difficult elements are involved although I think there are elements of the clause that in operating a super-majority. The biggest problem are right and proper, I think that they have not thought arises where the Government or the Opposition table a through the full possible consequences of the legislation. motion seeking to get to that figure and an early general I can easily foresee a time when a Prime Minister who election, and obtain more than half the seats in the is desperate to have a general election because of war, House but do not reach the two-thirds majority. In what an immense financial collapse or something else that he state would that leave the Government? Would a motion thought was of absolute centrality to the Government of no confidence immediately have to be tabled for us that he— then to be able to proceed to the other measures? Or would that original motion, by its very nature, have Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Or she. been considered a motion of no confidence, because the Government declared it to be a matter on which winning Chris Bryant: Or she. I thought I just heard my right the vote was an issue of confidence? Again, this provision hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell is either a dangerous or entirely unnecessary element. and Peckham (Ms Harman) speaking in my ear. If that Prime Minister felt that it was essential in the interests of the nation that there should be an early Mr Chope: Does the hon. Gentleman accept, therefore, general election, the Government would be prepared to that amendment 4 is the most important in this group? bypass and use every trick in the book to secure an early If so, will he argue in support of having a vote on it, if election. They might well have this Bill in their back my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) pocket as a means of achieving that. So although this withdraws amendment 33? Government were supposedly trying to release the grip of the Executive, they would have enhanced it. Chris Bryant: I am enthusiastically in favour of having I want to reaffirm our commitment to fixed-term a vote on amendment 4, because it goes to the nub of Parliaments. That means that we have to lay down in the issue; in large measure, it deals with the only issue of statute that it is for the House, not the Prime Minister, significance in this group of amendments. to dissolve Parliament. It should also be for the House 329 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 330

[Chris Bryant] who represents a certain number of votes. I do not know how such an amendment got through the Select to decide the precise date of the general election, which Committee but I think it was to form the basis of some should be in statute, and we should have only one sort of standing order that could be cooked up to meet process of calling an early general election. We must be the point about judicial inquiry into the purposes or clear that the Government need always retain the confidence nature of the Bill. of the House of Commons and that should be written Let me make another point about motions for an in statute now. early election or of no confidence. We have tickled, For most of the 20th century, we have had very few argued and considered across the Chamber the way in hung Parliaments, but I suspect that there might well be which Mr Callaghan accepted that there had to be a more in future. We need to ensure that our provisions general election, but that was nearly at the end of a will stand the test of time rather than simply being five-year Parliament. There was very little scope beyond drawn up to appease the coalition agreement. going the few months left, but he stood up immediately and said, “There will have to be a general election.” I Mr Shepherd: Mr Hoyle, I have a point of inquiry remember the perfervid moments of the Maastricht following your response to the Opposition’s Front-Bench debates and the subsequent consequences of a Government spokesman, which is about the stand part debate. As the who had a very small majority wanting to increase the amendments are theories in concatenation, it is difficult rate of VAT on domestic fuel. The motion was to be to address an amendment in isolation without reference vehemently opposed by people such as myself, who had to a wider context. lost the Whip, but not just because of that—it was an opposed measure. It could not have fallen but for the The Chairman: It is unlikely, not ruled out. The other support of Conservative Members who took a broader point is that I am not sure that we will even get there. At view on it, and it did fall. The argument that was put by the rate at which we are going, we have quite a while to the bastion of the 1922 Committee and the Whips, of go yet. course, for they have an argument for all seasons, was that if it fell, the Government would fall, and that the Mr Shepherd: Thank you, Mr Hoyle. I shall start with solemnest duty of any Conservative Member was to my first observation, which is that the test of each support the measure because the confidence of the clause in both of the constitutional Bills is to ask in House stood in the Budget. I shall always have a soft what way it enhances the role of the people in relation spot for the Justice Secretary—then the Chancellor— to Parliament. The answer, again, is that this does not. because when he lost the vote, he said, with that famous The measures are meant to be an internal reorganisation giggle, “Oh, we’ll have to have a corrigendum Budget.” of the rules and regulations of the House of Commons We duly had one on the following Thursday. I am really effected through statute. We have had advice from the talking about the pressure that was put on Back Benchers, Clerk of the House that, if challenged, it will be open to because we were told that the Government would fall. judicial interest and the views of the courts. Historically, If I had stood in front of my constituents at the this matter has always been determined within these general election and said, “I’ve got two little measures. precincts and so the question of what we call parliamentary The short title of one of them is the Fixed-Term Parliaments privilege is particularly germane to the Bill. I am very Bill, but the long title seems to contradict that concept,” concerned about that. I make the perhaps minor observation they would have been bemused. If I had then started that in a struggle between a new Government without a talking to them about the nature of confidence votes mandate and the House of Commons authorities, who and motions for an early election, they would have been are appointed by the House, I would back the advice of struggling. We were entering an election and they knew the House rather than that of the politically motivated what it was about; there was a crisis. There was a huge and interested Government of the day. I do not dismiss public deficit and anxiety about jobs, yet here was the Clerk’s memorandum or accept the response to it, Shepherd of Aldridge-Brownhills troubling them with which is effectively like that television sketch “Computer the notion that says no.” That is an extraordinary and very undignified response to the Clerk’s advice on something that is of “each member of the House of Commons who at the time of the the greatest importance to Members of the House, and motion being made is the registered leader of a registered party” through them, citizens’ rights, activities and freedoms. and so on. If I had done that, my constituents would My next point concerns the accumulation in clause 2 have thought, “Well, he’s been with us a long time,” and and the proposed amendments to it of purposes, or they might have made a different judgment in the election. distinctions between ways of dissolving Parliament. The measure has no mandate. I have opposed other These measures have shifted my position from benign constitutional measures, but however wrong I thought acceptance of the concept of a fixed Parliament to one the balance of the argument was for the detail of the of questioning whether there was not greater wisdom in Scotland Bill proposed by Labour, no one could say the proceedings and processes that we had before. These that there had not been a national convention on it. measures worry me enormously. My hon. Friend the There was no political party in Scotland that had not Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) generously long resourced such a measure. I recall John Smith’s moved an amendment in which she has no confidence role and that of a whole series of people. They were in order to test a proposition, and she did test it—to alert and alive to the issue. No one could claim that destruction. On examination, the amendment is too there was no mandate for the reforms and changes that threadbare and offends the very conscience of why we took place under the sovereignty of this Parliament to are here. It suggests that some Members’ views on create a Scottish legislative structure and to pass powers whether a Parliament should stand or not should be to Scotland. The constitutional developments in Wales disregarded because they do not have a party leader and Northern Ireland were similar. 331 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 332

Those measures could claim a mandate. The 19th century Overall, the Bill—clause 2, the other clauses, the is often cited, but these are long struggles. I was a little Speaker’s certificate, the idea of a registered leader of a riled by the Labour spokesman because he referred to registered party and so on—is, if not humbug, then the 18th century. It is proclaimed that the glory of the designed to defeat the very purposes that most of us in House is reflected in our coming to the democratic the House want, an open democratic House. I know age—it is rather like dividing up what happened in a that this is difficult in politics, but my Conservative great empire—but the democratic age is fairly fresh and colleagues should listen, understand and think about young and new. It did not really start until the 1860s. the 200 very new Members in the House who are going That was when political parties were formed and there to change a constitution without any reference point was a more regimented approach to the management of other than party loyalty. Party loyalty to what? No the House—not easy to do. There was a glorious extract mandate? They are going to march blindly through the from the London Illustrated News next to the office of Lobby at the behest of the concept of party, when in a my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash)—I coalition that is a very different matter. now know where Pericles found the stones to get over I shall certainly vote for amendment 4, and I hope his lack of confidence. The extract was from the Queen’s there will be many who take that course. speech—then Her Majesty Queen Victoria. The burden of it was to say, “This parliamentary Session”—well, this particular parliamentary Session will last for ever, Mark Durkan: Many valid arguments have been made but apart from that—“Her Majesty’s Government will about this group of amendments by a number of right concentrate on foreign affairs. It will leave domestic hon. and hon. Members. I have total sympathy with the legislation to the House.” Just like that. That is a world cynicism that has been expressed about some of the away from where we are now—where the Government devices in the Bill and the motives for them. have to fiddle and twiddle, and do everything at the However, I believe totally in the idea of a fixed-term behest of a very informed— Parliament and have supported amendments that clearly stated “fixed term”, although I believe that the term The Chairman: Order. The hon. Member for Rhondda should be four years, rather than five. I have to ask (Chris Bryant) also gave us a history lesson and had to myself, as all of us as legislators and members of the be reminded to come back to the amendment. I am Committee must ask ourselves, if we do not like the sure that the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills present provisions, what is our alternative that would (Mr Shepherd) would prefer to stick to the amendment. mean that we have credibly passed a Bill for fixed-term I realise that we can broaden things out, but we are Parliaments? That is where I part company and cease to going a little bit too far from the measure. be persuaded by some of the arguments that I hear in Mr Shepherd: Of course, I joyously do that. Implicit respect of some of the amendments. in every line of the measure is the management of the With reference to cynicism about the motives, a number House. That is the only reason why I diverted slightly to of hon. Members have articulated the basic nature of recall the London Illustrated News. the Bill. It is the means by which the two coalition parties have created a statutory harness to keep them Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): together for this Parliament. It is, in essence, a fixed The hon. Gentleman is making another fine speech, this-Parliament Bill, rather than a Fixed-term Parliament which I am always glad to hear. He spoke about the Bill. It is designed to solve the conundrum of either mandate for constitutional change and the previous party collapsing the coalition. The Parliamentary Voting mandates that previous changes have enjoyed. Does he System and Constituencies Bill is for fixing future elections. agree that it is important to have a mandate not only to This Bill is about fixing this Parliament. introduce a change in the constitution such as that If I want the Bill to be a Fixed-term Parliament Bill, I proposed, but to entrench it? Without such a mandate, have to be judicious about its content and any amendments is there not a danger that future Governments may feel that I might support. That is why I have some questions that they have the authority to introduce such constitutional about some of the amendments that have been so changes to their own benefit, much as the present articulately presented today. Government are seeking to bring in a constitutional change through the measures in the Bill for their own The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) benefit? presented amendment 33 with a white flag and in a very novel way, which just goes to show that it is entirely 4.15 pm possible for people to present themselves in all sorts of Mr Shepherd: I like the young new Member vigorously ways in the House. People say that a Government would advancing an argument that I find so convincing. not use or exploit in any way a no confidence motion The measure is not appropriate for a serious democracy. against themselves, but any available device will be used Clause 2, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stone in any particular circumstances. That is the nature of (Mr Cash) said, is an endeavour to entrench. It is as politics. simple as that. We cannot ignore a wider picture of The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) spoke what is going on. At this moment, loyal and good to amendment 21 and made a strong case for an dinner guests of those who run my party are marching “immediate” as opposed to an “early” general election. into the Lords to take their place. Their doing so means The only problem is that if “immediate” can mean that when the Bill comes to be voted on—remember, the only six weeks, as he said to the hon. Member for other House that has to deal with that is the Lords—the Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), what happens if, numbers able to vote on it in the Lords in the Conservative for example, we are close to Christmas—perhaps the and Liberal Democrat interest will have increased middle of November—notwithstanding that allowances exponentially. will be made for holidays? If we are truly to take 333 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 334

[Mark Durkan] could be political difficulties in one of the devolved regions that are leading to elections there, or particular account of media coverage and other activities during market issues, or all sorts of crises in Europe—although that time, is it credible to confine ourselves to six weeks I do not want to excite the hon. Member for Stone and six weeks only? Clause 2 as it stands allows for (Mr Cash) with that prospect. A variety of reasons consensus in the House on the need to bring forward could create a coincidence of interest across a number considerably the due date for an election, and people of parties from a number of places to say, “We’ll have might do so conscious of current and pending events. an early election”, and a date could be set without Another hon. Member mentioned the situation in necessarily having to do it in crisis mode for six weeks Dublin at the minute, and many people would say that, hence. although confirmation of an early election there has The beauty of a fixed-term Parliament is meant to be helped to clear the political air, going for an immediate that, because we all know the dates, we do not create election might cause more market turmoil not just for uncertainty and have political rushes and get all sorts of Ireland, but for others. There are times when we need to brinkmanship games being played. However, if this leave ourselves and this House the room to make a House is to have the power to dissolve early, it can have distinction between “early” and “immediate”. that power but not necessarily the power to do it immediately. It can have the power to give due notice Mr Cash: I am well aware that the hon. Gentleman is that the date is being brought forward but without pretty close to and talks frequently with those in southern waiting until just six weeks beforehand. If there is merit Ireland and in the Dail, but I doubt whether the Dail or in a fixed-term Parliament, there is also merit in leaving the people of Ireland would be particularly enthusiastic this House the opportunity to bring forward a date at this moment, when the Government are in coalition other than just by a vote six weeks beforehand, because with the Greens, to have such a provision imposed upon that would create surprise and difficulties and a sense of them. I suspect that, if the idea were suggested, it would crisis. I fully accept that the terms of the clause are not lead to serious disturbances in Ireland, and I am quite fully adequate: the hon. Member for Rhondda is absolutely sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree. right about that. We do not have a complete or adequate provision on fixed-term arrangements. Mark Durkan: The hon. Gentleman raises some wider Amendment 4 would remove the requirement for a questions, and you, Mr Hoyle, have said that the next two-thirds majority. I accept the argument made by group of amendments deals with confidence, but this many hon. Members that that is a very high threshold. I debate has strayed well on to that ground and conflated do not agree that it should be two thirds of all Members the two issues of whether the House, by a weighted regardless of whether they are voting. If we are going to majority, calls for an early election or whether it passes set any majority, or any weighted majority, it should a motion of no confidence in the Government. comprise those who are present and voting, so I do not In 1994, the Government changed in the Dail. The accept the Bill as it stands. However, I cannot just Labour party left its coalition with Fianna Fail, supported simply go along with the argument that says that there a motion of no confidence in the then Taoiseach and should not be any sort of weighted majority, because reappeared in a new coalition with Fine Gael and the then we are not sure what proof we are providing then Democratic Left. In that situation, as in the Bill against anybody abusing the numbers in this House to before us, provision has been made for a Government to dissolve Parliament early. Other hon. Members have change—a new Government to be constituted—in the referred to the powers of the Prime Minister and the lifetime of a Parliament, and in 1994 the people of powers that are exercised through party machinery—the Ireland settled quite happily for that. Whips, and so on. Leaving the calling of an early election to a simple majority that can be activated to Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend does not like my call an election within six weeks means that huge power “immediate” provision, but I shall suggest one reason remains in the hands of the Prime Minister. why he is wrong. The Bill, if unamended, means that Her Majesty by royal proclamation under the Great Mr George Howarth: Does my hon. Friend accept Seal, after conferring presumably with the Privy Council, that being a Member of this place carries with it not determines the date of the general election, but that in only a lot of privileges but a lot of responsibilities, and essence is down to the Prime Minister. Surely, if the that if we can achieve a simple majority, that would whole point is to take that power away from the Crown mean that more than half the Members of the House of and to place it here in Parliament, there should be Commons—people who have been sent here to exercise provision for an “immediate” general election. their judgment—had reached the conclusion that the time was right for a general election? I cannot for the Mark Durkan: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point life of me see why he finds that a difficult concept. about trying to remove powers from the Prime Minister, but I am not sure that all the amendments that he Mark Durkan: I believe in the idea of a fixed-term supports would do that. I think that, in a fairly effective Parliament. I am therefore not comfortable with the way, the powers would remain pretty heavily with the idea that, yes, we have fixed-term Parliaments, but that Executive. at any time a simple majority can call an election for six I am not fully persuaded of the case for the amendment. weeks hence. That is what I am being asked to vote for I fully accept the argument that it would bring some as an alternative to what is provided for in the Bill. The clarity and put some control in the hands of the House. Bill is not perfect, and it is badly motivated—I am as However, there could well be good, logical reasons for cynical as anybody else about that—but I have to be having an election that occurred to people at the time, judicious and logical about what I would provide in its possibly well in advance of a due election date. There stead. 335 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 336

There is an old joke about somebody going into the that its Parliament should be able to call what he two-hour dry cleaners and being told, “Come back on described as an early general election rather than an Tuesday.” They say, “What do you mean, come back on immediate one. Tuesday? It says ‘Two-hour dry cleaners’ outside.” Then However, the consequence of the Bill will be that if they are told, “That’s just the name of the shop.” That is we had a constitutional and financial crisis in this exactly what we have with this Bill. People say that they country similar to the one besetting the Irish people—God want a fixed-term Parliament, but they also want a Bill forbid that that should happen—the hon. Gentleman or that means that it will not, in effect, be fixed, because a I might ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister simple vote at any time can dissolve it—and who is whether he intended to call an early general election so going to be moving those votes and pulling the strings that the people could have their say. Under the terms of of the Whips behind the scenes? We must remember the Bill, the Prime Minister would turn around and say that at any time, it will be possible for people to force an to me or the hon. Gentleman, “I am sorry, but I don’t election by using a simple majority to force through a have the power to call a general election now. The only vote of no confidence in the Government. If there is not way I can engineer one is for you to put down a motion a vote of confidence in an alternative Government of no confidence in me, with the humiliation that it within 14 days, there will be an election. If people want would involve, or for me to try to get a two-thirds the means to force an election, that route exists. majority in the House to facilitate it.” The Prime Minister However, it is fair and reasonable also to give the would lose the right to call an election. The Minister House the power to change the date of an election for seems to think that is a good idea, but I do not. I trust reasons that are not particularly partisan, that are mature, the Prime Minister’s judgment on such issues, and I responsible and well thought through and that can be think we should trust the people and let them decide. justified in light of existing circumstances and forthcoming When our good friend Edward Heath was Prime events. The House should be able to say, “We have a Minister, he decided to call an early general election to fixed-term Parliament, but we are giving all sides ample deal with the miners’ strike. The people reached their notice that we will be moving the date.” That would not verdict. Basically, they said, “We think that you have be a matter of artifice or brinkmanship. If the House is proved yourself unworthy to remain in office.” The fact being offered such a responsible, mature power that it that a Prime Minister calls an early general election could use with responsibility aforethought, I find it does not necessarily mean that they are going to win it. bizarre that Members are trying to twist and turn to Whether they win or not is a matter for the people. find reasons not to take it. If there was a financial or constitutional crisis, such as the one in Dublin, a reasonable Prime Minister—I 4.30 pm should like to think of my right hon. Friend the Prime I welcome the spirit of the amendments intended to Minister as a reasonable man—would say, “In the light allow parties other than the bigger ones to have a say. of what has happened, we should call a general election. The small parties found themselves disqualified from We should call it now. We should not have to have a even being able to nominate members of the Backbench contrived vote in the House of Commons. I wish to go Business Committee, for example, so I am conscious to the Queen and ask her to exercise her prerogative to that some thresholds being used in the House are a call an immediate general election.” problem. Some of our parties are no longer eligible to be on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, a creature Mark Durkan: In Dublin, a budget needs to be passed that some of us helped to create in the first place, and then people can make a legitimate judgment. The because of thresholds and the way in which numbers imperative is to get a budget passed to create some are played with. Therefore, I fully appreciate the spirit economic and financial stability to boost confidence in of the amendments but I have my doubts about their the wider markets—not just for the Irish economy but exact nature and how practical they are. for other economies both inside and outside the eurozone that will be under pressure. There will be an election in We need to be careful about the Bill and the amendments late January and that is known, but at least the Dail has to it. We want to ensure that fixed-term Parliaments are the opportunity to pass a budget. in place and that it is not so easy for parties to break whatever convenient glass is to hand in case of emergency. Mr Chope: I will not get involved in the detail of what I am persuaded that there is a need for a weighted is happening in Ireland at the moment. If a similar majority provision, and for a vote that is different in situation were to happen in this country, people might character from confidence votes, which are not threatened well turn to their Members of Parliament and say, by the Bill. If anything, the Bill provides for a situation “Why should we trust this Government to pass another similar to the one in Ireland in 1994, so I have no Budget when it has made such a Horlicks of the current argument with it on that score. I do question the terms arrangements? Why don’t we elect a new Parliament on which the threshold will operate, and when I question and a new Government to deal with the crisis?” the effectiveness of some of the amendments, I do not in any way give up my cynicism about the nature and Mr Harper: At first, my hon. Friend said that this Bill purpose of parts of the Bill and its twin, which has now would not provide any flexibility. Then he set out two gone to the other House. ways in which we could have an early election. Our proposition is that it would be up to this House rather Mr Chope: I am against the Bill because of the lack of the Prime Minister to call an early election. The Prime flexibility in it. From what the hon. Member for Foyle Minister could come to this House, put down a motion (Mark Durkan) has just been telling us, I think he and then Members could decide whether they wanted agrees that if we have a fixed-term Parliament, a lack of an early election to deal with the financial crisis. To give flexibility is inevitable. He said that in the current the power to this House and not leave it with the Prime constitutional and financial crisis in Ireland, it is reasonable Minister is an improvement. 337 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 338

Mr Chope: Where we all part company with my hon. The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Friend is on the issue of whether a 50% plus one Order. Such an experienced Member will know that the majority should suffice. That is where the amendment referendum is not quite part of this group of amendments. of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) I am sure that he would like to get back to the amendment. comes in. In the hypothetical situation that we describe, a majority of this House may decide that there should Mr Chope: Absolutely, Mr Hoyle. I am sorry, but the be a general election, and surely that is reasonable. Why right hon. Member for Blackburn, who is a former should we have to have the constraints of a two-thirds Home Secretary and holder of many other important majority, which is a contrivance in itself? national offices, drew me down that road of speculation. I had the privilege of introducing the first Adjournment To sum up, the Government have a motive to cover debate in this Parliament when we discussed the issue of either outcome of the AV referendum. It suits both the 55%. I like to think that it was largely because of the parties in the coalition to prevent an early general cross-party ridicule of the 55% arrangements in the election, which is why they want a fixed-term Parliament— coalition agreement that the Government decided to they want to assure themselves of a longer period in think again. They did think again, but they reached the office. I say only this: good luck to them, but they wrong conclusion. They should have gone back to should not expect me to vote for the Bill tonight. saying, “Let’s have a bare majority” rather than going to the artificial two-thirds majority. They tried to pray Tristram Hunt: I wish to speak to amendments 33 in aid, falsely, the Scottish precedent, which was discredited and 34. Even though I, too, am a member of the during that first Adjournment debate and on a number Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, I did of other occasions as not being in line with our situation. not put my name to them. As the hon. Member for In Scotland, there was full public consultation on the Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) suggested, they allow us to new Parliament and the way in which it could be pursue the idea of exclusive cognisance, and of this dissolved early, short of the expiry of the fixed term. place having control of its powers rather than being After that discussion, the Scotland Act 1998 was brought opened up to external powers, particularly in respect of in with the arrangements set out in it. In the United the possibility of the courts intervening in the parliamentary Kingdom, a general election took place. I and others process. were elected on the Conservative manifesto. We then As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris found that we did not have an overall majority, so we Bryant) said, the Clerk of the House has repeatedly were forced to go into a coalition Government—at least warned Members that the provisions of the Bill that was the decision that was taken. We are now told “impinge upon Parliamentary privilege and…may bring the Courts that only a two-thirds majority can bring this Parliament and Parliament into conflict”, to an early end, short of a vote of no confidence in the and yet the Government seem unwilling to heed any Prime Minister. I have all sorts of objections to that such advice. When the Clerk of House appeared before proposal, not least that it is effectively retrospective the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, legislation. If this House is to legislate to fix the lengths with his usual subtlety and modesty, and we tried to of Parliament, it should legislate for the lengths of press him on whether he had been consulted on the future Parliaments, not the current one. I object to the developments behind the Bill, he rather averred in his proposal, and I hope that it is taken up in the other answer. The Government consider that place. “this Bill would cause no such rebalancing and that the Bill will I also reject the idea of the artificial two-thirds threshold, not in any way open up parliamentary proceedings to the jurisdiction which has not been discussed anywhere. When my hon. of the courts.” Friends consider whether to join my hon. Friend the That is an idea that the amendments are beginning to Member for Stone in the Division Lobby on amendment 4, tease out. In their reply to our Committee, the Government they should bear in mind not only that the two-thirds also said that insufficient time for pre-legislative scrutiny threshold was not in the Conservative manifesto, but is a that it was not even in the coalition agreement. They “natural consequence of legislating at the beginning of the first should be free to say to their Whips, “I said I’d go along term”. with the coalition agreement, albeit reluctantly, but I am certainly not signing up to amendments to the I am a new Member in this place, but I do not regard coalition agreement that the Government make on a that as a sufficient excuse for some of the lacunae that whim and expect me to support automatically. I’m we have seen opening up in the course of our scrutiny of going to look at each issue on its merits, and I see no this legislation. merit whatever in the two-thirds majority.” In conclusion, the excellent speech by the right hon. 4.45 pm Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) was well worth I would like briefly to point to two areas where there listening to. He speculated about the motive and urgency are potential openings for judicial intervention in of the Government’s proposal. We know what the the running of this place. I do not wish to speak to the urgency is: the Government are split completely over Speaker’s certificates now, because we will return to the the AV referendum. The Liberal Democrats and the specifics of that, but amendment 33 opens up the issue Conservatives—the majority party—both want to be as a principle, because in addition to fixed electoral sure that the other does not pull the rug from under the dates, the Bill empowers the Speaker to produce a coalition Government after that referendum. It is quite certificate for an early general election, which would possible in my submission that the Conservatives will occur if the House had passed a motion of no confidence lose, although I hope not, but who knows what will in Her Majesty’s Government and, after 14 days, there happen in that game of Russian roulette? had been no further motion expressing confidence. The 339 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 340

Government are leaving it up to the Speaker to decide Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): My hon. Friend is making whether such events have occurred, but the problem is an extremely important and persuasive case. Is not all that the judgment that the Speaker makes will now be the evidence that judicial review of administrative action placed in statute, as a principle, but it is not an easy is increasing? For example, very recently, the Digital decision for the Speaker to make. He or she would have Economy Act 2010 was opened up by the courts for to adjudicate on what constitutes a confidence motion, judicial review. It is less controversial than this, bit it the selection of amendments to the motion and the inevitably suggests that there will be more review in future. consequence of their being carried, all with an eye to major political ramifications. Crucially, because the Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend is right, and I shall certificate would be laid out in statute law, any disputes come in a moment to the Hunting Act 2004, which is about whether the Speaker had been right to issue the another piece of legislation that was open to judicial certificate would have to be settled in the courts. The review. In the courts at the moment, there is the Speaker’s certificate becomes justiciable and would therefore extraordinary situation of an election court judging be declared invalid if the correct procedures had not my—I not sure of the correct parliamentary terminology— been followed. previous hon. Friend the Member for Oldham— As you know, Mr Hoyle, lawyers can interpret their The Chairman: Order. We will not stray down that way around provisions in any way they like, and particularly path, as the matter is before the courts. We must return those stating that the Speaker’s decision is final. There to the amendment. is a celebrated case of a compensation scheme after the Tristram Hunt: Thank you, Mr Hoyle. That proves Suez crisis, with its legislative provision that my point—the areas where we cannot go because they “the determinations of the compensation body shall be final”. are before judges are increasing. In his written statement, the Minister simply cites Not according to the court, which ruled that where the article 9 of the Bill of Rights 1689, and leaves it at that. body had made a decision on compensation that was It provides that wrong, it was not a “determination”but only a “purported “proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned determination”, and therefore the courts could still in any court”, review it. So if the wrong procedures were followed, any and he said he could see certificate would not be a “certificate of Dissolution” properly so-called, only a “purported certificate”, and “no reason why the courts would not continue to defer to them”. would therefore not be final but would potentially be The comity between Parliament and the courts has amenable to judicial review. The Government seem relied on the fact that the internal proceedings were intent on ignoring that possibility and the numerous entirely matters for the House’s jurisdiction. Its procedures potential openings for legal dispute. arising from Standing Orders or resolutions cannot be legally challenged, but statute law can. That is the I hate to refer to your position in depth, Mr Hoyle, extraordinary development in the Bill. but another example is the position and role of the Deputy Speakers, as laid out in subsection (4). Were the Mr Cash: The hon. Gentleman is dealing with Deputy Speakers to dissent from the Speaker’s view of amendments to come and amendment 6. I take his the no-confidence motion, there would be strong grounds point, but there is a huge body of law, and statements for questioning the basis on which the Dissolution was are being made by members of the Supreme Court that based. The current provision is that the Speaker must are causing great concern and are being considered by consult the Deputy Speakers “so far as practicable”. I my European Scrutiny Committee’s inquiry into am sure that that would be no problem, but the notion parliamentary sovereignty in the context of law-making of what is or is not practicable in the case of dissent in this House. between the Deputy Speakers would also need to be Tristram Hunt: I could not agree more with the hon. settled in a court of law. As the hon. Member for Stone Gentleman, and I will come to the Supreme Court in a (Mr Cash) and many others have pointed out, another moment. I do not want to interfere with his amendments issue would be whether all Members of the House of on the Speaker’s certificate, which are absolutely correct. Commons had been present at the vote. However, no My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) matter what the reason given, in such politically charged referred to the Digital Economy Act 2010, and the circumstances as those that would surround a vote of Hunting Act 2004 was also reviewed in court. Yes, the no confidence, parties are likely to seek means of challenging court ruled that it could not interfere with the Act, but the Dissolution. We have also had reference to what it had to go to the Law Lords for that supposedly constitutes a motion of no confidence. Is it losing a self-evident truth to be confirmed. Even there, the judgement Budget or a specific motion? was hardly a ringing endorsement of Parliamentary Amendments 33 and 34 and others hint at the expansion sovereignty, which is what amendment 33 seeks to retain. of judicial review and the danger it poses to this place Mr Shepherd: The process of getting to the courts and to the democratic process and the calling of elections. takes time, and obviates the timetables in the Bill. Judicial review has hugely increased the role of the courts, which now regularly pass judgments on questions Tristram Hunt: The hon. Gentleman is of course that were previously non-justiciable. I suggest that it is correct. There will be extra layers and extra opportunities dangerous for the Government to assert that when the for lawyers to intervene. It was no wonder that Lord Bill becomes law it could not possibly be affected by Steyn commented in the light of the Hunting Act 2004 judicial review because the judges would not dare to that it intervene in the matters of this House. The fact of the “is not unthinkable that circumstances could arise where the matter is that this is uncharted territory and they cannot courts may have to qualify a principle established on a different know for sure until it has indeed been judicially reviewed. hypothesis of constitutionalism”. 341 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 342

[Tristram Hunt] Several hon. Members rose—

I think that in plain English that means they would be The Chairman: Order. After such a long debate, may I interested to get their teeth into the proceedings in this inform the Committee that I do not propose to allow a place. debate on clause stand part?

Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) Mr Harper: There are several other groups of (Con): Is the hon. Gentleman talking about a legal amendments, and we can expand on these matters challenge to the validity of an Act or, as in the example further in due course. I shall only go as far as I need to that he has just given, the validity of the use of the in discussing this group, rather than trying to accelerate Parliament Act in ensuring that an Act reaches the the debate. I want to deal briefly with the timetable. I do statute book? not think that the Bill has been rushed in any way. It was published in July, it had its Second Reading in Tristram Hunt: The hon. Gentleman makes a very September, and the first day of its Committee stage did good point, and his knowledge of the Hunting Act is not start until November. We have another day in second to none. I am hinting at the adventurism of Committee today, and the House passed a programme justices in critiquing and opening up to judicial review motion earlier that gives us an extra day in Committee not only the Parliament Act but the proceedings of this on Thursday. I do not think that we are rushing ahead place. The fear is that putting these measures into with this. No knives were included in the programme statute will open up the calling of elections from this motion, and we are taking the debate at the proper pace place. That is what amendment 33 seeks to address. that the Committee requires.

Mr Cash: The hon. Gentleman is relentlessly hunting Mr George Howarth: I accept what the Minister says out the provisions that will be referred to shortly. The about the timetable for the Committee stage on the problem with the Parliament Act 1911 is that the phrase Floor of the House. A bigger issue, however, is that “shall not be questioned in any court of law” there was no time for proper pre-legislative scrutiny before the Bill was published and debated. Such scrutiny follows the words stating that the certificate would have made many of these issues less contentious, “shall be conclusive for all purposes”. or at least it would have had the potential to do so. When the courts come to interpret these questions, they will say, “ Well, that’s what it says in the Parliament Mr Harper: I do not pretend that we published a Act.” So if the words were left out, there may have been draft Bill. We did not, but we have not rushed ahead. an intention to include the courts of law in this instance. We published the Bill in July and it is now November That is why my amendment 6 makes it absolutely clear and we are on our second day of Committee. That is that there shall be no presentation of such a certificate hardly rushing through at a tremendous pace. We have to the courts, let alone any possibility of their adjudicating not overly programmed either; we have had no knives on such matters. and only today we have added extra time for the Bill. I do not accept at all that we have been rushing on. Tristram Hunt rose— 5pm The Chairman: Order. We are in danger of straying My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs into amendment 6, and I would like hon. Members to Laing) moved amendment 33 on behalf of some unnamed come back. I am sure that that is what the hon. Member members of the Committee who— for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) was about to do. Chris Bryant rose—

Tristram Hunt: I was about to come straight back to Mr Harper: Go on. amendment 33; I will not be led too far astray. Reference has been made to the new Supreme Court Chris Bryant: I would not want the Minister inadvertently on the other side of Parliament square, which gives the to mislead the Committee. He said that extra time has capacity for amendments relating to the self-governing been provided, but he has not allowed any extra time; of this place, such as amendment 33, to be overturned he has merely allowed the injury time for the three by the actions of judges. The Clerk of the House has statements that interfered with the debate. [Interruption.] further warned us of the not infrequent need in recent If the Deputy Leader of the House wants to make a years for interventions by the Speaker of the House of speech, I am sure he will be able to catch your eye, Commons to protect parliamentary privilege in the Mr Hoyle. [Interruption.] courts. As the hon. Member for Stone knows far better than we do, these matters can go from here across The Chairman: Order. I would like to stop this bickering Parliament square and even to Europe. between the Front Benchers. Let us move on. All we want from the Minister is some clarity on this issue, and evidence of some slightly more rigorous Mr Harper: My hon. Friend moved amendment 33, thinking than the rushed elements that we have had so although many members of the Select Committee pretended far. Rather than being slightly dismissive of the fears that they wanted nothing to do with it; to be fair, so did expressed by the Clerk of the House, will he provide us my hon. Friend. She explained why the amendment was with some certainty and a clear answer to the question tabled—to enable this Committee to debate and test the on statutory instruments and the certificate? concerns raised by the Clerk. I shall touch on them 343 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 344 briefly. I will not overdo them, as we may have an Sir Peter Soulsby: With the amendment’s proposers opportunity to debate them further in a later group of having been at the receiving end of the Minister’s criticism, amendments on the Speaker’s certificate. However, I I hope he will acknowledge that it was tabled by members shall deal with the amendment. I know my hon. Friend of the Select Committee to enable the matter properly said that she does not want to press it to a Division, but to be debated, particularly in the light of our concern it is the lead amendment. about the lack of proper time being accorded to pre- The amendment would remove two central provisions— legislative scrutiny.We wanted to ensure that this Committee the two mechanisms that provide for an early general could debate the matter on the Floor of the House at election to take place: the vote through which the this Committee stage. House can choose to have an early election and the Mr Harper: I entirely agree. Indeed, I think I mechanism for having one following the loss of a vote acknowledged that that had been the purpose for which of confidence. Instead, the amendment provides that the amendment had been tabled. the early election could take place only on the House’s address to the monarch, which can be made only I can reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest that there is no danger of my accepting her “by the Prime Minister acting with the agreement of…the Leader amendment, and that as there is not to be a Division—at of the Opposition; and…the…leader of a registered party that received more than 20 per cent. of the total votes cast at the least if we have anything to do with it—she will not be previous…general election.” forced to vote against it. I have a number of serious issues with the amendment. Amendment 21, tabled by Opposition Members, simply First, it would prevent the Prime Minister from calling changes the word “early” in clause 2 to “immediate”. I a general election only if he did so for political advantage. have two comments to make. First, under our own It ignores and does not address the circumstances where arrangements—this too emerged earlier in the debate—we there is a loss of confidence. It also focuses greatly on do not have immediate general elections anyway. There Front Benchers, as our debate has made clear. I exempt is always a wash-up period. Before the 1979 election—which my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest from seems to have prompted the most discussion—25 Bills this criticism, as she said she did not agree with the were passed during the wash-up period, including a amendment, but given their views about the role of number that completed all their stages during that Front Benchers, I am surprised that the other signatories period. Some of those Bills were very valuable. I spotted to the amendment thought that that was a good idea. among them the Pneumoconiosis Etc. (Workers’ The hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) is Compensation) Act 1979, which is still helping people not in his place, but I do not think he would mind me today. saying that he is somewhat sceptical about the power of Secondly, all that the amendment does is change the Front Benchers and the usual channels. I am surprised language in the clause. It does not, in itself, have any that he supported an amendment that suggests they effect. I know that the hon. Member for Rhondda should have a lot of power. As the right hon. Member (Chris Bryant) mentioned a later amendment that did for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) pointed out, not every introduce a change, but this amendment would not registered leader of a party is necessarily a Member of bring an election further forward. this House. Chris Bryant: The Minister is right: we are not trying The amendment also fails to deal with what would to make an enormous point. I simply wanted to tease happen to a party like the Liberal Democrats, our out of the Government precisely what they understand coalition partners, part-way through a Parliament. How by a motion calling for an early general election. I would we take account of the vote it had received at the wanted to know, for instance, whether—as suggested by previous general election? Indeed, the 20% threshold the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan)—he believed would leave Northern Ireland parties out of the picture that it would be possible to call such an election, and completely. If this measure had been in place following that the Speaker would be able to sign a certificate the 1992, 1997 and 2001 elections, only two people saying that one had been called, when the House had, would have been required to table the motion—the say on Wednesday next week, passed a motion calling leader of the Labour party and the leader of the for a general election in nine months’ time. Conservative party. In view of what has been said about the need to remove the power of the Executive and Mr Harper: I do not think that that is drawn out by Front Benchers, that does not seem a sensible step the amendment, but I agree with the hon. Member for forward. Foyle (Mark Durkan) that some flexibility is required. It would thus be fair to say that amendment 33 is not The Speaker will certify that a motion has been passed, well drafted. From what I heard, it does not sound as if but we do not know what all the circumstances will be. it had enormous support across the Committee, including The hon. Gentleman gave a good example when he even from my hon. Friend. Despite the fact that she did cited the way in which Ireland has arranged for procedures not agree with the amendment, she moved it in a way to take place to provide some certainty. I do not think that was very becoming to her parliamentary experience that we want to set all the rules in stone. We want to and the Committee enjoyed the opportunity with which allow the Speaker to be clear with the House—I am it was presented. sure that he would be clear with the House before it debated the motion—about whether he is able to certify that the motion would trigger an early general election. Sir Peter Soulsby rose— It is better to leave such matters to the judgment of the Speaker. I will come to the point about the Clerk’s Mr Harper: I give way to the third guilty person concern about justiciability, but I do not think that responsible for the amendment. being too specific would be helpful. 345 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 346

Chris Bryant rose— Mr Harper: Thank you, Mr Hoyle. As always, I will do as you instruct. I will now take the intervention from Mr Cash: Will the Minister give way? my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, so long as he does not try to tempt me away from the instruction Mr Harper: I will give way to the shadow Minister from the Chair. first, because I said that I would. Mr Cash: Some of the Minister’s remarks are so Chris Bryant: What the Minister has said makes me completely out of line with reality that I do not think I rather more worried, and gives me much greater cause will bother to intervene. for concern than other elements of the clause. The danger is that if we are not clear enough about the precise Mr Harper: Excellent; that is an excellent step forward. moment when a Speaker is required by the House to [Interruption.] I shall take it as one. act, we will be asking the Speaker to break his or her Amendment 4 stands in the name of my hon. Friend impartiality at a moment that may be very, very politically and was also signed by Opposition Members. Effectively, sensitive. it drives a coach and horses through these entire provisions; the hon. Member for Foyle picked that point up very Mr Harper: I do not agree. I think that the Speaker well. It is because we want to provide for fixed-term would ensure that the House was clear both about a Parliaments that the Bill specifies that an early general motion that would trigger an early general election and election can be triggered only if there is a majority of at about a motion of confidence, and about what he least two thirds. If it were possible to have an early would certify, before the debate. I do not think it would general election by way of a motion that gains a simple be sensible for the House to have a debate when it was majority, we all know that in most circumstances that not clear about those matters. would mean that we have given the power back to the We discussed the 1979 debate earlier. The right hon. Prime Minister. If he felt an early general election was Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) tried to suggest that in the interests of the governing party and that view was Members had voted on that motion for other reasons, shared by the governing party, the motion would be but the motion was very clear in asking whether the passed and we would have a general election, and we House had confidence in the Government, and I suggested would therefore not have fixed-term Parliaments. that Members could not have been in any doubt about I am not surprised that my hon. Friend has tabled what they were voting for. I think that the Speaker this amendment as it is clear from his speech that he would always want to ensure that the House understood does not like the concept of fixed-term Parliaments at what it was voting for, and the effect of its vote. all, and that instead he is happy with our current arrangements, which he is entitled to be. However, given Chris Bryant: That is even more worrying. The Minister that the Opposition have said they are broadly in favour is now saying that the Speaker would decide whether a of fixed-term Parliaments—albeit maybe for four years, motion before the House was a motion of confidence in not five—I cannot understand why they have supported Her Majesty’s Government, which is profoundly worrying. the amendment because, as I have said, it drives a coach Motions on the Adjournment, motions on all sorts of and horses through the entire proposition. legislation and motions of censure of individual members of the Government have been determined to be such by Graham Stringer: This is a great constitutional innovation. the House. If it were for the Speaker to make such a In respect of these motions, can the Minister explain determination, we would have shot the Speaker’s why some Members’ votes will have twice the weight of impartiality to pieces. others’?

Mr Harper: No, I do not think so at all. At present, Mr Harper: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s whether a motion is a motion of confidence is determined proposition about the weighting of votes. We have set by the Prime Minister; it is determined by how they out a straightforward position. We decided on two behave as a result of the vote. [Interruption.] No,itis. thirds partly because it is the majority required in the Scottish Parliament under the Scotland Act 1998, and Mr Cash: Will the Minister give way? partly because under the requirement for a majority of such a size no Government since the second world war Mr Harper: In a moment; let me first address the would have been able to trigger an early election on question I have just been asked. their own. Effectively, the requirement for a majority of Earlier in the debate, we had a conversation about two thirds means that there would have to be some motions that were not specifically in these terms, and cross-party support and a general mood in the House several Members on the Government Benches referred that there should be an early election. to certain votes. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone There was talk about the fact that the coalition (Mr Cash) referred to some votes on Europe and my agreement refers to 55%, and I acknowledge that. The hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills coalition agreement was put together quite quickly however, (Mr Shepherd) talked about a vote on VAT on fuel. and we have since reflected on this question. We wanted How the Government behaved after the debates on to be clear that the Government—both parties together— those motions was determined by Ministers, not the were going to put aside the prospect of being able to House. trigger an early general election and that, instead, that could happen only if there was a shared view across the The Chairman: Motions of no confidence are an House. The reason why we alighted on two thirds was issue to be debated later. Members ought to be speaking because it was the number used in the Scotland Act 1998, to amendment 33. which set up the Scottish Parliament. 347 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 348

5.15 pm power that it does not currently possess. I am surprised, as the hon. Gentleman said he was, that some Members Graham Stringer: I understand the objectives. I am of the House sound as though they do not want a cynical about them and the motives behind them, but power that is not possessed by the House and has the numerical fact is that passing this motion will require previously been possessed only by the Prime Minister. the support of 400-odd Members, depending on the size of the Commons at that particular time—perhaps Chris Bryant: What happens if the Government table the figure will be 420—whereas stopping it will require a motion calling for an early parliamentary general only half that number. Therefore, someone’s vote against election—I presume only they will be able to do so—and will carry twice the weight of someone’s vote in favour. it is carried by 330 votes, but not by the 434 votes Can the Minister be clear, not on the objectives, but on necessary? Could the Speaker, or for that matter the why he wants to give some hon. Members more voting Prime Minister, determine that to be a motion of no power than others? confidence in the Government?

Mr Harper: I just do not agree with the way in which Mr Harper: The Prime Minister— the hon. Gentleman has characterised this. We have said that the support of a significant number of Members The Chairman: Order. I think we are back discussing is required to have an early election. It is very simple for no confidence— the House to make a decision. If a simple majority is required to have an early election, we do not have Chris Bryant: No— fixed-term Parliaments because if the governing party or parties have a majority in this House, they will The Chairman: Order. I am sorry, but I am making a simply be able to table a motion, their own side will ruling from the Chair. I feel that this is a debate that we support it and we will have an election whenever the are going to have and I am concerned that we are Prime Minister chooses. If that is what the House getting drawn into it now. The Minister may answer wants, fine. However, the House has already decided quickly, if he wishes, but I do not want to let this go any when it gave this Bill its Second Reading that it wants further after that. fixed-term Parliaments, and it did so again when we debated clause 1 last week and decided on the date and Mr Harper: Mr Hoyle, you are pointing out that we the fact that we would have five-year Parliaments. Our can discuss this at length when we get on to a later proposition is that if we allow an early election on a group of amendments. My view on the hon. Gentleman’s simple majority, we drive a coach and horses through example is very clear: if the Prime Minister so wishes, the Bill. he can cease being Prime Minister whenever he feels like it. The House could then see whether an alternative Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Just to be Government under a different leader could be formed— topical, what would happen in a situation such as exists [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda says in Ireland at the moment, where there is a weak not under this provision, but this provision is for an Government, a coalition breaks up, there is a financial early election. The Prime Minister can cease being crisis and it is clearly essential that the Government Prime Minister whenever the Prime Minister chooses renew themselves with an early general election? What and Her Majesty will then be able to send for an would happen in such circumstances if the Bill goes alternative person to form a new Government. That is through as drafted? Would we have the absurd situation not what the Bill is about. The Bill is about fixed-term that two thirds of Members would have to vote to kill Parliaments, not fixed-term Governments. off a Parliament that nobody wanted to survive any longer? Mr Cash: Is the Minister inventing a new kind of leave, called parliamentary leave rather than paternity Mr Harper: There are two parts to clause 2. leave? Importantly—some Members were getting this confused—a motion of no confidence in the Government can still be Mr Harper: I am not quite sure what my hon. Friend passed by a simple majority. So if a Government did is driving at. not command the confidence of the House, the House could express that lack of confidence. I shall not go into Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Another way that in detail, because we will deal with it when we that Parliament could do what it wished would be to discuss a later group of amendments—Mr Hoyle is repeal this legislation by a simple majority. clear about that—but the House can vote in support of a motion of no confidence and the Government will Mr Harper: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, then have the period of examining whether another in the sense that this is an Act of Parliament and can be Government can be formed from within that Parliament. repealed, but the difference is that it will then engage the As the hon. Member for Foyle said earlier, when I do other place, in which the Government do not have a not believe my hon. Friend was present, the Bill also majority—and in which we will still not have one when provides the opportunity to renew the Parliament if the new peers have been introduced. We think that there is a sense that there is a reason why events mean putting the provision in legislation is preferable to putting that it needs to be renewed—I believe that is the view in it in Standing Orders because the Government then Ireland at the moment. If a simple majority has lost have to get the Bill through both Houses of Parliament, faith in the Government, a motion of no confidence can in one of which they do not have a majority— be passed. If there is a general sense that there should [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent be an election, we have given the House that opportunity—a Central (Tristram Hunt) says that the Government will 349 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 350

[Mr Harper] Cooper, Rosie Howarth, rh Mr George Cooper, rh Yvette Hunt, Tristram have a majority, but no. Even when the new list of Corbyn, Jeremy Illsley, Mr Eric working peers has been created, the two governing Creagh, Mary Irranca-Davies, Huw parties together will not have a majority. There are Creasy, Stella Jackson, Glenda Cross Benchers in the Upper House, which he keeps Cruddas, Jon James, Mrs Siân C. Cryer, John Jamieson, Cathy forgetting. Cunningham, Alex Jenkin, Mr Bernard For those reasons, I think that amendment 4 is flawed. Cunningham, Mr Jim Johnson, rh Alan If it is pressed to a vote, I urge my hon. Friends to Cunningham, Tony Johnson, Diana oppose it. The Government’s position is very clear. We Curran, Margaret Jones, Graham want fixed-term Parliaments but we want there to be Dakin, Nic Jones, Helen two circumstances in which there can be an early general Danczuk, Simon Jones, Mr Kevan election: when there is a traditional motion of no confidence, Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Susan Elan in which a simple majority is enough to say that a David, Mr Wayne Joyce, Eric Government have lost the confidence of the House; and Davidson, Mr Ian Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald when the House uses its new power to force an early Davies, Geraint Keeley, Barbara De Piero, Gloria Kendall, Liz election, which is decided by two thirds of the Members Denham, rh Mr John Khan, rh Sadiq of the House. The same provision is in the Scotland Dobbin, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Act 1998 for the Scottish Parliament. I should say that Dobson, rh Frank Lavery, Ian it is the same provision, because in Scotland it is two Docherty, Thomas Lazarowicz, Mark thirds of all Members, not just those voting. The hon. Doran, Mr Frank Lewis, Mr Ivan Member for Rhondda did not get that quite right. Dowd, Jim Lloyd, Tony Whichever of the amendments is pressed to a vote, I Doyle, Gemma Love, Mr Andrew urge hon. Members to reject it. We can then move on. Dromey, Jack Lucas, Caroline Dugher, Michael Lucas, Ian Eagle, Ms Angela MacShane, rh Mr Denis Mrs Laing: It was the Select Committee’s intention to Eagle, Maria Mactaggart, Fiona give the House an opportunity to debate these important Efford, Clive Mahmood, Mr Khalid matters and that has certainly been a success. I am Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Shabana pleased to have given the right hon. Member for Blackburn Ellman, Mrs Louise Mann, John (Mr Straw) his first opportunity to address the House Engel, Natascha Marsden, Mr Gordon from the Back Benches for more than 23 years. I am Esterson, Bill McCabe, Steve grateful to my colleagues on the Select Committee, the Evans, Chris McCann, Mr Michael hon. Members for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Farrelly, Paul McCarthy, Kerry Hunt) and for Leicester South (Sir Peter Soulsby), for Field, rh Mr Frank McClymont, Gregg their support for—or rather opposition to—the amendment, Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonagh, Siobhain which none of us wants to see become part of the Bill Flello, Robert McDonnell, John but which we are all grateful to have had the opportunity Flint, rh Caroline McFadden, rh Mr Pat to debate this afternoon. I beg to ask leave to withdraw Flynn, Paul McGovern, Alison Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Jim the amendment. Francis, Dr Hywel McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Gapes, Mike McKechin, Ann Amendment proposed: 4, in clause 2, page 2, leave out Gardiner, Barry McKinnell, Catherine lines 3 to 7.—(Mr Cash.) Gilmore, Sheila Mearns, Ian Glass, Pat Michael, rh Alun The Committee divided: Ayes 235, Noes 314. Glindon, Mrs Mary Miliband, rh David Division No. 131] [5.23 pm Godsiff, Mr Roger Miliband, rh Edward Goggins, rh Paul Miller, Andrew AYES Greatrex, Tom Mitchell, Austin Green, Kate Morden, Jessica Abbott, Ms Diane Blunkett, rh Mr David Greenwood, Lilian Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Griffith, Nia Morris, Grahame M. Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Brennan, Kevin Gwynne, Andrew (Easington) Alexander, Heidi Brown, Lyn Hain, rh Mr Peter Mudie, Mr George Ali, Rushanara Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr David Munn, Meg Austin, Ian Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Fabian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bailey, Mr Adrian Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Bain, Mr William Buck, Ms Karen Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, Ian Banks, Gordon Burden, Richard Harris, Mr Tom Nandy, Lisa Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cairns, David Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Bayley, Hugh Campbell, Mr Alan Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Beckett, rh Margaret Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Benn, rh Hilary Cash, Mr William Heyes, David Osborne, Sandra Benton, Mr Joe Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hillier, Meg Owen, Albert Berger, Luciana Chope, Mr Christopher Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa Betts, Mr Clive Clark, Katy Hodge, rh Margaret Phillipson, Bridget Blackman-Woods, Roberta Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pound, Stephen Blears, rh Hazel Clwyd, rh Ann Hoey, Kate Qureshi, Yasmin Blenkinsop, Tom Coffey, Ann Hood, Mr Jim Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Blomfield, Paul Connarty, Michael Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie 351 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 352

Rees-Mogg, Jacob Spellar, rh Mr John Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Mr Greg Reeves, Rachel Straw, rh Mr Jack Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Reynolds, Emma Stringer, Graham Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reynolds, Jonathan Stuart, Ms Gisela Fallon, Michael Lamb, Norman Riordan, Mrs Linda Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Robertson, John Tami, Mark Field, Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Thomas, Mr Gareth Foster, Mr Don Latham, Pauline Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Thornberry, Emily Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Rotheram, Steve Timms, rh Stephen Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Roy, Mr Frank Trickett, Jon Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Roy, Lindsay Turner, Mr Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Dr Phillip Ruane, Chris Turner, Karl Fuller, Richard Leech, Mr John Ruddock, rh Joan Twigg, Derek Gale, Mr Roger Lefroy, Jeremy Sarwar, Anas Umunna, Mr Chuka Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte Seabeck, Alison Walley, Joan Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Sharma, Mr Virendra Watts, Mr Dave Gauke, Mr David Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sheerman, Mr Barry Whitehead, Dr Alan George, Andrew Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shepherd, Mr Richard Wicks, rh Malcolm Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen Sheridan, Jim Williamson, Chris Gilbert, Stephen Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Shuker, Gavin Wilson, Phil Glen, John Long, Naomi Singh, Mr Marsha Winnick, Mr David Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Skinner, Mr Dennis Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Slaughter, Mr Andy Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Woodcock, John Smith, rh Mr Andrew Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Wright, David Smith, Angela Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Smith, Nick Tellers for the Ayes: Gray, Mr James MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Smith, Owen Mr Peter Bone and Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Soulsby, Sir Peter Mr David Nuttall Green, Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Greening, Justine Maynard, Paul NOES Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Adams, Nigel Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Afriyie, Adam Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Aldous, Peter Cairns, Alun Hames, Duncan McPartland, Stephen Alexander, rh Danny Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, rh Mr Philip McVey, Esther Andrew, Stuart Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hancock, Matthew Menzies, Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Mr Mike Mercer, Patrick Baker, Norman Carswell, Mr Douglas Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Baker, Steve Chishti, Rehman Harrington, Richard Miller, Maria Baldry, Tony Clappison, Mr James Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Baldwin, Harriett Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hart, Simon Milton, Anne Barclay, Stephen Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harvey, Nick Moore, rh Michael Barwell, Gavin Collins, Damian Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mordaunt, Penny Bebb, Guto Colvile, Oliver Hayes, Mr John Morgan, Nicky Beith, rh Sir Alan Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Bellingham, Mr Henry Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Morris, David Benyon, Richard Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Berry, Jake Davey, Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Bingham, Andrew Davies, David T. C. Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg Binley, Mr Brian (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Glyn Hermon, Lady Munt, Tessa Blackman, Bob de Bois, Nick Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Blackwood, Nicola Dinenage, Caroline Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Blunt, Mr Crispin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Boles, Nick Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Horwood, Martin Newton, Sarah Bottomley, Peter Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Howarth, Mr Gerald Nokes, Caroline Bradley, Karen Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huhne, rh Chris Norman, Jesse Brady, Mr Graham Dorries, Nadine Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Brake, Tom Doyle-Price, Jackie Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Bray, Angie Duddridge, James Jackson, Mr Stewart Opperman, Guy Brazier, Mr Julian Duncan, rh Mr Alan James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Bridgen, Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Javid, Sajid Paice, Mr James Brokenshire, James Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Brooke, Annette Durkan, Mark Johnson, Joseph Patel, Priti Bruce, Fiona Edwards, Jonathan Jones, Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Buckland, Mr Robert Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr David Pawsey, Mark Burley, Mr Aidan Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Burns, Conor Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel Percy, Andrew Burns, Mr Simon Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Burrowes, Mr David Eustice, George Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Phillips, Stephen Burstow, Paul Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher 353 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 354

Poulter, Dr Daniel Swayne, Mr Desmond The Temporary Chair: With this it will be convenient Prisk, Mr Mark Swinson, Jo to discuss the following: Pritchard, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Amendment 22, page 2, line 12, leave out ‘14’ and Pugh, Dr John Teather, Sarah Raab, Mr Dominic Thurso, John insert ‘ten working’. Randall, rh Mr John Timpson, Mr Edward Amendment 36, page 2, line 14, at end insert— Reckless, Mark Tomlinson, Justin ‘(2A) In reckoning for the purposes of subsection 2(b), no Redwood, rh Mr John Tredinnick, David account shall be taken of any time during which Parliament is Reevell, Simon Truss, Elizabeth prorogued or during which the House of Commons is adjourned Reid, Mr Alan Tyrie, Mr Andrew for more than four days.’. Robathan, Mr Andrew Uppal, Paul Amendment 37, page 2, line 14, at end insert— Robertson, Angus Vickers, Martin ‘(2B) Where the House of Commons passes a motion of no Robertson, Hugh Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa confidence in Her Majesty’s Government, the Prime Minister Rogerson, Dan Walker, Mr Charles shall tender his resignation to Her Majesty within a period of Rosindell, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin seven days of the motion being passed. Rudd, Amber Wallace, Mr Ben Ruffley, Mr David (2C) On tendering his resignation under subsection (2B), it Walter, Mr Robert shall be a duty on the Prime Minister to advise Her Majesty to Russell, Bob Ward, Mr David appoint as his successor the person who appears to him most Rutley, David Watkinson, Angela likely to command the confidence of the House of Commons.’. Sanders, Mr Adrian Weatherley, Mike Sandys, Laura Amendment 25, page 2, line 24, at end add— Webb, Steve Selous, Andrew ‘(6A) In this section a “motion of no confidence in Her Weir, Mr Mike Shannon, Jim Majesty’s Government” shall be— Wharton, James Sharma, Alok (a) in the terms “This House has no confidence in Her Wheeler, Heather Shelbrooke, Alec Majesty’s Government” or White, Chris Simmonds, Mark (b) in the terms “This House has no confidence in the Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Simpson, David Prime Minister”.’. Simpson, Mr Keith Whittaker, Craig Skidmore, Chris Willetts, rh Mr David Mr Cash: During the previous debate, we covered an Smith, Henry Williams, Hywel enormous amount of the ground contained in this group Smith, Julian Williams, Mr Mark of amendments, so purely to clarify the position I Smith, Sir Robert Williams, Roger should say that, although the previous amendments Soames, Nicholas Williams, Stephen dealt with early parliamentary elections when the motion Soubry, Anna Williamson, Gavin might as well be a confidence motion but of course might Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Willott, Jenny not, this group relates to a motion of no confidence. I Spencer, Mr Mark Wilson, Mr Rob accept the Minister’s point that such a motion would Stephenson, Andrew Wishart, Pete Stevenson, John require a simple majority, and I do not need to say any Wollaston, Dr Sarah more on that. Stewart, Bob Wright, Jeremy Stewart, Iain Wright, Simon I have already explained the variety of confidence Stewart, Rory Yeo, Mr Tim motions, but I am afraid I have the gravest disagreement Streeter, Mr Gary Young, rh Sir George with the Minister about his definition of a confidence Stride, Mel Zahawi, Nadhim motion. I am very concerned, indeed, and for reasons Stuart, Mr Graham that I shall go into when we reach the next amendments Stunell, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: on the potential role of the judiciary. It is impossible for Sturdy, Julian Miss Chloe Smith and the Minister to explain what a vote of no confidence is, Swales, Ian Mark Hunter and he certainly has not done so today. It is extremely difficult to define a vote of no confidence, Question accordingly negatived. because it covers a vote on an Adjournment, on the reduction of a Minister’s salary, on Suez, on the defeat The Temporary Chair (Mr David Amess): Before we of the Callaghan Government—and Margaret Thatcher come to the next group of amendments, I have the becoming Prime Minister—by a majority of one, and following announcement to make regarding deferred many other situations. There is a raft of different definitions, Divisions. On the question relating to local elections in and what troubles me is that right at the heart of the Northern Ireland, the Ayes were 337 and the Noes were matter is one simple proposition, summarised by Leo 217, so the Question was agreed to. On the question relating Amery on 7 May 1940, when he got up during a very to Northern Ireland Assembly elections, the Ayes were charged debate on the Norway issue and said to Neville 338 and the Noes were 216, so the Question was agreed Chamberlain: to. On the question relating to health and safety and the “In the name of God, go.”—[Official Report, 7 May 1940; EPR nuclear reactor, the Ayes were 520 and the Noes Vol. 360, c. 1150.] were 27, so the Question was agreed to. On the question Although the Government won that vote of confidence, relating to health and safety and the AP1000 nuclear because enough craven people were prepared to vote for reactor, the Ayes were 517 and the Noes were 26, so the them, Chamberlain knew the game was up. The confidence Question was agreed to. motion was therefore—even in that case—defeated, and [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s he went. The definition of a confidence motion is debates.] therefore extremely uncertain. It boils down to the fact that there is such concern about, and lack of confidence Mr Cash: I beg to move amendment 5, in in, the Government—let alone the Prime Minister—that clause 2, page 2, line 11, leave out from ‘Government’ to he has to go and, therefore, the Government as well. end of line 14. The two things run together. 355 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 356

Mrs Laing: The issue was raised at a Commonwealth Mr Cash: There is one simple reason why some of us Parliamentary Association conference in Portcullis House voted for the confidence motion on Maastricht. I remember last week. Currently, there is something of a constitutional pointing to the late John Smith, who was then Leader of crisis in Canada over exactly the same questions: what the Opposition, and saying, “There is only one reason is a vote of confidence, when is a vote a vote of why I am going to vote for the present Government on confidence, how is it defined and who has the power to this occasion, and that is because you are more of a make that definition? Surely, it would be wrong if our federalist than they are.” That is why that vote went that Parliament got into the mess that Canada is in. way—it is as simple as that. 5.45 pm This is not only about the shenanigans with the Whips, the patronage, the promises, the chicanery behind Mr Cash: As the former adviser to Quebec in the closed doors, and all that, leading to yet another coalition Canadian constitutional dispute of 1982, I am not agreement, no doubt based on different principles, in unfamiliar with the problems that arise in the Canadian order to stay in power. The other aspect—we can get to constitution. Of course, Canada has a Governor-General, it later, which is why I am about to bring my remarks to and there is a completely different situation there. There an end—is that it is dependent on the Speaker of the was a similar situation in Australia some time ago House of Commons issuing a certificate certifying the involving Gough Whitlam. motion of no confidence. That is an extremely important I would strongly deny, however, that we should be matter, which we need to discuss properly after the guided by what goes on in other countries: the real issue debate on this group of amendments. is what we do in this House. We have an established position that is dependent on the views of the House. I think I have spoken quite enough for the time being, My strongest objection to the phrasing of the previous and I would be very glad to expedite matters by moving amendment was that it referred to the number of seats on as soon as possible to the next issue. I think we will in the House rather than those voting in the House. have a very interesting and, if I may so, seminal debate There is a big difference. In Germany, the question of on the role of the judiciary in relation to parliamentary whether a Government might fall would depend on the sovereignty. number of persons present if, under its written constitution, two thirds vote in a particular division, whereas in the Chris Bryant: The last moments of the speech of the case of this coalition Government, it would be dependent hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) sounded a bit like a on the number of seats. It is necessary to take into trailer for the next debate. If he does not mind we will account the Deputy Speakers and the people who might stick with this one for the moment, although he is be absent. In fact, the clause includes, in brackets, the absolutely right to say that the way in which all the words “including vacant seats”, so the arithmetic is different elements of the Bill tumble together in a extraordinarily difficult. The real question is whether concatenation will make for a fairly dangerous precedent the Government have lost confidence. if we are not given further clarification. It is important that we establish some basic first Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Would not principles on no confidence motions. First, the Government one solution be to stipulate that any motion of no should at all times enjoy the confidence of the House of confidence must specifically relate to this clause, so that Commons. It is important to state that that should be a there could be no doubt that the motion before the matter solely for the House of Commons, no matter House was covered by the Bill as enacted? whether we change the composition of the House of Mr Cash: That is an interesting idea, but that is not Lords in future, as I hope we do. I note that motions of what the Bill says, although I am not criticising my hon. no confidence have been tabled and debated in the Friend for that. The Bill simply says that House of Lords, but that is inappropriate. The elected “on a specified day the House passed a motion of no confidence House of Commons, the primary Chamber, should in Her Majesty’s Government (as then constituted)”. determine whether the Government enjoy the confidence I described in an earlier debate the shenanigans of of Parliament. the 14-day period after a day had ended without the Secondly, it is important to say that just because the House having passed any motion expressing confidence Government lose a vote, they do not necessarily have to in any Government of Her Majesty. What happens next fall. That is an important principle because I think that is that all these people get together in a huddle and then there are only two Prime Ministers since the second rush up and down Downing street and Whitehall going world war who have not lost votes at some point. Even to see the Cabinet Secretary and receiving some instructions Churchill lost one vote in his period as Prime Minister about what they should do, in his view, if they want a after the war. Attlee lost four, even when he had a stable Government. The net result is that we have a majority, and Wilson lost 31, six in his first time as completely chaotic situation driven by behind-the-scenes, Prime Minister and 25 in his second. Callaghan lost 34, unknown negotiations that are then announced— none of which did for him—well, obviously one did in Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Does my the end. It is a sign of a healthy relationship between the hon. Friend remember—happy days—when we were Executive and Parliament if the legislature is able to Maastricht rebels? We defeated the Government on the defeat the Government on occasion on bits and pieces paving motion, and they then brought in another motion of legislation. that was related to a no confidence motion, and we were Obviously there comes a point at which a Government all brought to heel in that way. Although I would not might not be able to continue, for instance because they want to encourage that sort of behaviour, at least it was have not been able to get their Budget through in any clear, was it not? The Government were saying, “This is shape or form, or because they cannot take through where we are—we stand here.” At least that made for some major piece of legislation. In practice, as the hon. strong government. Member for Stone mentioned, what has normally happened 357 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 358

[Chris Bryant] Chris Bryant: I do not think that the hon. Lady is right about the strict rule. Her memory of the occasion in the past is that the Government have brought forward is right; it was Thursday 22 November 1990. The motion legislation and then lost a vote on an amendment or was very clear. It said: some motion. Often, the Opposition have then tabled a “That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s motion of no confidence the next day. Government.”—[Official Report, 22 November 1990; Vol. 181, The convention of the House—I note that it is only a c. 439.] convention—is that the Government automatically give The debate was led by Neil Kinnock, now Lord Kinnock, precedence to a motion of no confidence, so that it can and the motion was defeated by 367 votes to 247. The be debated immediately.It is obviously in the Government’s hon. Lady makes my point for me. The rules have been interests to resolve the matter of whether the House has very nebulous except where the words are very clear on confidence in them. I merely note that now we are the Order Paper. Very often, the words on the Order putting elements of the matter into statute rather than Paper have not been clear. depending on convention and Standing Orders, there is no provision to ensure that a motion of no confidence is Mrs Laing: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving guaranteed precedence and can be debated swiftly, one way again. I made a mistake when I talked about a would hope the next day. “strict rule”. I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. The point is that there are rules and there are conventions, Governments have lost large numbers of votes since but they are not sufficiently clear, so I agree with the the second world war and before, and that is important. hon. Gentleman on this point. Some of them have been finance votes, and it is perfectly satisfactory for some finance votes to be lost, for instance Chris Bryant: I am delighted that we agree because I on stamp duty or the rate of income tax. On 16 July am sure that that will mean that the hon. Lady will join 1974, the Government lost a vote on a Liberal amendment me in the Division Lobby in a wee while. to the Finance Bill. On 8 May 1978 the Conservatives Clearly, conventions have operated in this House, but moved that income tax be cut from 34% to 33%, which they have wandered with the age. There was a period was carried against the Government’s wishes. On 10 May when there were frequent motions of no confidence and that year another Conservative amendment to the Finance the Opposition thought that it was a good way in which Bill was agreed to, and the Government lost another to transact business. For the past 15 years or so, we have motion the next day in relation to sending the Finance not had motions of no confidence, largely because the Bill off to Committee. Government have enjoyed fairly large majorities. Another I do not believe that such losses should of necessity reason, I suspect, is that there is nothing worse than mean that the Government should fall, or indeed that losing a motion of no confidence and the Government they have lost the confidence of the House in its totality. tend to unite in their confidence in themselves. I will I also do not believe that a motion to censure an come later to discuss one of the dangers of this nebulous individual member of the Government should, of necessity, relationship. All too often, as the hon. Member for lead to the fall of the Government, a new general Stone said, the Prime Minister of the day starts saying, election or to inciting the provisions in the Bill. There “I really want to get this piece of legislation through. If have been occasions in the past, when, effectively, a we don’t get this through, there will be a general election motion to censure an individual member of the Government and I will have to resign. Effectively, it’s a motion of no has been so considered. The last occasion when a confidence.” All too often, pieces of legislation or votes Government who had a majority of seats in the House are carried because of the threat of the no confidence of Commons lost a motion of no confidence was in 1895. motion. It would be better if one had clarity in statute The motion was on reducing the salary of the Secretary as to what constituted a motion of no confidence. of State for War, Mr Campbell-Bannerman, by £100 because he had not provided enough cordite to the 6pm troops. The motion was carried. Even though Campbell- There is one exception to that: motions of censure. Bannerman was probably the most popular Member of Obviously, such motions can relate to an individual the Government at the time, he resigned and the Prime member of the Government, the Speaker or any Member Minister decided that he would consider it to have been of the House. Motions of censure against members of a motion of confidence, and the Government resigned. the Government can be made in relation to specific The incoming Conservative Government decided to actions that they have or have not taken. The hon. seek a Dissolution and hold an election and the Member for Stone referred to the motion of censure on Conservatives came to power. Suez, but there have been others. On occasion, such Mrs Laing: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that motions have been treated as motions of confidence, there are rules and conventions about when a motion but they should always be treated as such when they are before this House is a confidence motion and when it is against the Prime Minister. not? Twenty years ago this week, I recall the then Prime One could argue that the two motions in 1924 that Minister, now Baroness Thatcher, saying that she was constituted motions of no confidence fall into a similar going to stand down as Prime Minister. The Opposition category. On 21 January 1924, after the first general then tabled a motion of no confidence in the Government, election of that year, the Opposition carried an amendment which was quite rightly debated as such on the Floor of to the Loyal Address, so that it stated: the House because we were at a point of crisis. The “Your Majesty’s present advisers have not the confidence of this Government, headed as it still was by Margaret Thatcher, House.”—[Official Report, 21 January 1924; Vol. 169, c. 685.] won that vote very distinctly, but it was a motion of To all intents and purposes—as plain as a pikestaff—that confidence. There are strict rules about when it is and was a motion of no confidence. Stanley Baldwin when it is not. subsequently resigned as Prime Minister, but there was 359 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 360 no general election, and the Labour party took over, element from the Bill. We on the Labour Benches assisted by the Liberals, in the first minority Government. disagree with them, so we will not be supporting that One day—who knows?—that may come to pass again. I amendment. warn Conservative colleagues that that arrangement There were two occasions, on 11 March 1976 and 20 did not last very long. On 8 October 1924, the specific July 1977, when the motion “That this House do now censure motion on the Prime Minister’s refusal to continue adjourn” was declared by the then Prime Minister or a petition against a journal was not carried, but the Leader of the Opposition to be a motion of no confidence, appointment of a Select Committee was carried. The first by Harold Wilson and then by Mrs Thatcher, now Prime Minister determined that that was a matter of Baroness Thatcher. On occasion, the mere involvement confidence and decided to resign, and we all know the of the Prime Minister, by turning up at the Dispatch result. Box to defend a particular motion or piece of legislation, Mr Cash: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely has effectively turned it into a motion of confidence, interesting case. He has demonstrated that motions of and that has transpired during the debate. As we are confidence come in all shapes and sizes—the essence of abolishing the Prime Minister’s right to dissolve Parliament such motions is whether the House of Commons has and placing that right in the hands of Parliament—we lost confidence in the Government—but the question are putting that in statute—it would be better to state in whether the courts will get their hands on such matters the Bill, in clear language, precisely what constitutes a is the big issue, and that troubles me. However interesting motion of no confidence, so that there can be no doubt. it may be to go through the various facets of this group I say that for several reasons. First, it would remove of amendments, if we are to have a vote on the courts, the Prime Minister’s power to force legislation through we must get on to the next group of amendments, by calling it a matter of confidence. Perhaps Members because we need to debate that. on the Government Benches have not got used to this yet, but when we were in government, it was a fairly Chris Bryant: I very much hope that we do. There are common occurrence whenever there was a difficult piece two elements to why this debate matters: first, the role of legislation—whether on trade unions, the war in Iraq of the Speaker, and secondly, the role of the courts, or whatever—for the Prime Minister to say, not necessarily which is what the hon. Gentleman wants to debate. in public but certainly in private, that it was a matter of Contrary to what the Minister said, the Opposition confidence. That has led to some bad legislation in the rather than the Prime Minister often determine what is past, which was certainly not helpful to us, and I am and is not a motion of confidence. As we heard, the sure that there will be plenty of moments like that Prime Minister could decide that the question whether coming along for Government Members. the House adjourns is a matter of confidence, or he or she could refer to minor legislation as such. However, Mark Durkan: Just to reinforce the hon. Gentleman’s the Opposition can not only table a motion of no argument, a case in point when legislation was forced confidence, but declare that another matter is a matter through with the threat that it would be treated as a of confidence. Effectively, they can demand that the confidence issue was the Counter-Terrorism Bill allowing Prime Minister address such a matter personally. for 42-day detention. The then Prime Minister made it On 15 January 1972, Second Reading of the European clear in his pleadings to me that it would be treated as a Communities Act 1972, which I suspect the hon. Member confidence motion. He said, “Do you want an election? for Stone knows well, was declared by the then Prime If you turn up and vote against, there will be an Minister to be a matter of confidence. He said that if he election.” He tried threatening me and his Back-Bench lost, there would be a general election. Undoubtedly, colleagues with an election, precisely abusing the notion some decided to support him for that very reason. of a confidence motion, which is why amendment 25, which the hon. Gentleman has tabled, is so good. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Surely this debate about votes of no confidence is really all about the Chris Bryant: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s exercise of the Prime Minister’s power, because as the support. He is absolutely right. However, I must confess hon. Gentleman has just implied, it is the Prime Minister to the Committee that Prime Ministers rarely said that who decides whether we will have a general election. to me personally, because I was too ludicrously loyal. When Ted Heath used that threat in 1972, he clearly did Almost before the Prime Minister had even thought so quite deliberately, in order to force his side to vote in that a vote might be difficult, I had already decided I favour of joining the European Union, and it was his would be supportive. In fact, I rarely got to see the decision whether there would be a general election. Prime Minister for that very reason. I would therefore Given that, I cannot really see why the hon. Gentleman advise Government Members that if they want to see is going in the direction that he is. the Prime Minister on a regular basis, they should start Chris Bryant: Because the legislation is changing that wondering whether they will support Government provision in two regards, one of which is the subject of provisions. However, the serious point is that the freedom an amendment in this group. The Government—I think of individual Back Benchers will be tethered, because rightly—want to say that after a motion of no confidence, they will constantly be persuaded by the argument, there could be two weeks during which the House “You don’t want a general election, do you? You must could, if it wanted, pass a motion of confidence in support this piece of legislation, because otherwise I’m either the same Government, presumably, or another going to call it a motion of no confidence.” Government, with either the same Prime Minister or a The second reason touches on an important element, different Prime Minister, with a different set of ministerial on which the Minister got into difficult waters—I know colleagues. That is a change from the situation thus far. that he does not think that he did, but others of us do, There are those who want to remove that two-week and I think that the courts will feel that too. He said 361 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 362

[Chris Bryant] whether she believes that police tactics outside the House are proportionate? Many hundreds of students that it would be for the Speaker to decide and to and schoolchildren have been kettled for more than announce before any debate what counts as a motion of four hours and, according to the police, will be out confidence or, presumably, a motion of no confidence. there for several more hours in the freezing cold. Whatever A minor point is whether a motion of confidence will one thinks about the student protest, holding people count as a motion of no confidence if it is not carried. against their will for no reason is neither proportionate In the past it has, but I am not sure whether the nor effective. Government intend that. It would be wholly inappropriate for the Chair to say The Temporary Chair (Mr David Amess): The whole at the beginning of, for example, a Budget debate that if House has heard what the hon. Lady has said, particularly the House does not carry the Budget and if the Finance those on the Treasury Bench, but that is not a point of Bill falls on Second Reading or Third Reading that order. would be a motion of confidence in the Government, so he would issue a certificate. The Minister was sighing 6.15 pm but is now smiling, and we prefer the smiling. I accept Chris Bryant: Thank you, Mr Amess. I thought that that in that example I am imagining what might happen, the hon. Lady was intervening on me, but I soon but I am more concerned what would happen if hon. realised that she was not. Members chose to ask the Speaker whether a motion of censure counted as a motion of confidence. As I understand I have commented on amendment 22, and I hope that it, the Minister is saying that the Speaker would be the Minister will be able to respond. Amendment 36 required to adjudicate on whether it was a motion of no would provide extra time, if the House were already confidence. That would be wholly inappropriate, particularly adjourned or prorogued, for the House to come up with at a time of political uncertainty and high drama, a new motion of confidence. In some ways, this mirrors because the Speaker would lose his or her impartiality quite a lot of existing legislation relating to Dissolution and be drawn into the political mêlée, and that would be and Prorogation and to the use of extraordinary powers. wrong. For instance, if the reserve forces were to be summoned when the House was adjourned or prorogued, there is a Amendment 5 would remove the two-week provision special power for Parliament to be called back early. for a new Government to be formed on the basis of a The amendment seems sensible, and I hope that the confidence motion. We may have to return to some of Minister will respond to these points before we decide these issues on Report, and I would be grateful if the whether we want to vote on it. Minister will clarify whether, if that second motion fell, there could then be a subsequent two weeks. We quite Amendment 37 insists that the Prime Minister should like the provision for two weeks—it seems sensible if an resign within seven days of a motion of no confidence alternative coalition or Government could be formed. I being passed. Again, I hope that the Minister will give see some hon. Members casting a wry glance as though the Committee his views on this, because this was an I am eyeing up the Liberal Democrats. We are not element of the Conservative manifesto in the general getting on very well with the Liberal Democrats at the election. We might therefore want to return to the moment, so I do not think he needs to worry about that, matter on Report. What does he understand would but obviously if the offer is on the table, we will take it. happen to the Prime Minister if a motion of no confidence in him personally, as opposed to a motion of no confidence Amendment 22 is a minor one, and I would be in Her Majesty’s Government, were carried? What does interested in the Government’s view. The clause refers he think would happen if a motion of no confidence to the provision of 14 days being allowed after a motion just in the Government were carried? of no confidence. We have suggested that it should be Our amendment 25 would provide two categories of 10 working days simply because all other references in no confidence motions. The first would be expressed in the Bill are to working days. I suppose it is possible that the terms: the period could coincide with a royal wedding, a day of thanksgiving, a bank holiday, Easter or Christmas, and “This House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government”. it would seem to be sensible to specify working days The second would have to be expressed in the terms: instead of days. “This House has no confidence in the Prime Minister”. However, we have not moved to the suggestion in That obviously precludes any of the other elements. I other Committees of 10 sitting days, because if the think it would be clearer for the House if we set down in House were adjourned, there would be a specific problem. statute the stipulation that the clause would click in I hope that the Minister will say what he thinks should only in those two instances, as set out in the Bill, and happen if the House had been adjourned for a recess—for that only in those circumstances would the Speaker be example, the day after a motion of no confidence. able to issue a certificate. Should there be a requirement for the Government to I understand that some hon. Members think that bring the House back, and should there be a specific there should be great leniency and that it should be provision for the Speaker to be able to require the entirely up to the Prime Minister to determine whether House to be recalled within the two weeks? We will there is a motion of no confidence. I believe that, come to Prorogation later. especially as we move towards a system in which the Government assert that the Prime Minister is relinquishing Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): On a the power to dissolve Parliament himself, it makes far point of order, Mr Amess. Have you have received any more sense to make these matters clear in the Bill, indication from the Home Secretary that she might be rather than dragging the Speaker into what is and is not coming to the House tonight to make a statement on a motion of no confidence. 363 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 364

Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab) that I generally support the idea of having fixed-term rose— Parliaments because it will promote the basic concept of electoral fairness, end some of the deal-making and The Temporary Chair: I call Tommy Docherty. lack of scrutiny we have seen inherent in the wash-up procedures, improve electoral planning for the Electoral Thomas Docherty: It might help the House to know Commission and avoid some of the return to hype and that the Scottish Parliament has very specific rules confusion that we saw dominate the last three years of about what counts as a motion of no confidence in the the previous Parliament. Government. For example, failing to get a Budget through In one area, however, I have to reserve my unequivocal does not count, as we saw just two years ago when the support. That concerns the consequences of a successful Scottish National party Government could not get their vote of no confidence in a Government. It must be right Budget through on the first attempt. for such votes to continue to be decided by a simple majority. If a Government cannot command the support Chris Bryant: I think my hon. Friend normally thinks of a simple majority of elected representatives, they of himself as a Thomas, rather than a Tommy, Mr Amess. should fall. I welcome the Government’s withdrawal of He is similar to Tommy McAvoy, but not quite the the qualified majority provision that was previously same. I think he will take that as a compliment, but I am under consideration. However, clause 2(2)(b) sets out a not entirely sure. He will doubtless tell me later. He is novel and rather anomalous parliamentary procedure. absolutely right about the Scottish Parliament. Reference has been made to this country’s practice, The whole thrust of my argument is that, in the past, which is that a successful mid-term vote of no confidence the House has for the most part proceeded on the basis leads to an immediate election. In the last century, there of gentleman’s agreements and of conventions that are were just two examples of that, both of which led to the not written down anywhere, and on the basis that announcement of Dissolution the following day. The “Erskine May” is a more important bible than statute exception—I stand to be corrected if I am wrong—was law in relation to these matters. However, we are now after the election of December 1923, which the hon. fixing the length of our Parliaments and moving towards Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) mentioned. A determining many other elements of our constitutional minority Conservative Government led by Stanley Baldwin settlement in statute law, and it is vital that we should be switched to a minority Labour Government led by clear about what we mean by a motion of no confidence. Ramsay MacDonald. However, that took place immediately I fully accept that other Members might want to after an election, so it arguably reflected rather than include certain other categories. The one other aspect ignored the shifting will of the electorate. that might be considered always to be a motion of no confidence—so it should perhaps be included—is the Practice therefore shows that this convention is reasonably acceptance of an amendment to the Loyal Address clear, yet clause 2(2)(b) undoes it. It provides a window after a general election. The Bill does not provide for of up to 14 days after a no confidence vote before a circumstances in which a new Government are formed general election must be called. I stand to be corrected by a motion of confidence, although that happens again and ask the Minister for some clarification, but the elsewhere—in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh aim appears to be to allow the formation of an alternative Assembly, for example, where the First Ministers are Government without an election. The mechanism appears appointed by a vote. almost explicitly designed to facilitate a third party leaving a coalition in order to form an entirely new Government of an entirely different character—mid-term Thomas Docherty: For further clarification, it is not and without seeking a democratic mandate for such a only the First Minister but each of the Ministers that he profound change. I see no sound reason or any good or she subsequently appoints who require a formal vote justification for such an inherently undemocratic device— in the Scottish Parliament. Some hon. and right hon. even one formulated in permissive terms. I see only the Gentlemen might find that to be a useful mechanism. risk of this clause being used for political expediency, sidestepping the democratic process. Chris Bryant: You would rule me out of order, Mr Amess, if I debated whether there should be confirmation hearings It might be said that the existing arrangements already for all Ministers and related matters. I understand why allow for this to happen, but they do not encourage it some might say that my amendment could be improved and they do not institutionalise it. At best, this provision upon by including a third category of no confidence is unnecessary; at worst, it is undemocratic. I would motion—one relating to the tabling of an amendment therefore be grateful for some further explanation and to the Loyal Address at the beginning of a new Parliament. clarification from Ministers of the explicit purpose of To those who think that way, I say that it would be this window— and, indeed, of why it is necessary at all. better to carry the amendment today so that we improve the legislation and then move further forward to suggest Mrs Laing: Amendments 36 and 37 were also submitted amendments to amplify that provision on Report. by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. With that, I conclude. I shall want to press I am pleased to say that, unlike the last group of amendment 25. If you took the view that we could amendments, these are amendments with which I agree. divide on that amendment later, Mr Amess, I would be I apologise again on behalf of the Chairman of the grateful. Committee, the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who would have liked to be here to speak on Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): This is the Committee’s behalf. I am pleased that other Select my first opportunity to speak on the Bill. Before I deal Committee members are present, along with other hon. with the specific clause and amendments, I want to say Members who have supported the amendments. 365 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 366

[Mrs Laing] a very long summer recess means the Government are not being held to account and that this House is not the The purpose of amendments 36 and 37 is to improve forum and focus for national debate that it should be. the Bill and help the Government to clarify a very However, I put it to Members that there is an even important issue. There cannot be anything more important worse possible outcome from these proposed measures. than knowing when the House is facing a motion of I know the current Government under the current confidence in the Government and when it is not. This leadership of the current Prime Minister and the Minister is not a matter that ought to be left open to speculation. who is currently sitting on the Front Bench would never When we face a confidence motion we need to know behave in a dishonourable fashion, but that is not the that it is a confidence motion, and—as has been said by point. The point is that legislation passed by this House Members on both sides of the Committee—it should should make sure that no Government can ever use not be used by the Whips as a tool to coerce people to their prerogative power of prorogation—I have got vote for a particular issue lest their Government fall if better at saying such tongue-twisters during the day—to the vote be lost. A motion of confidence is not a tool of frustrate the formation of an alternative Government. the Whips; it is a very important convention of our constitution. Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady is right again, and she is Amendment 36 is designed to address the Select very good at saying the “prerogative power of prorogation”. Committee’s finding in our pre-legislative scrutiny report The additional power the Government currently have is that, under the Bill, the power to decide whether a motion gains precedence “the requirement that the House would need to show that it had on the Order Paper or not. One of the difficulties with confidence in any alternative government within fourteen days to the current draft of the Bill is that there is no provision avoid an early general election could be made impossible if the to ensure that a prospective new Prime Minister trying Government ensured that the House was adjourned or prorogued to form a Government would be able to table a motion for any substantial length of time.” of confidence. The amendment would prevent the incumbent Government from using the prerogative power of prorogation to Mrs Laing: Yes, the shadow Minister is correct. I am frustrate the formation of an alternative Government, sure the Minister will have very good responses to these which they could do under the Bill as it is currently questions when he replies, but it is important that the drafted. At present, the Government could get around House addresses them, and that is why the Political and the provisions in clause 2 by simply proroguing Parliament. Constitutional Reform Committee has tabled these amendments as a result of its pre-legislative scrutiny Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. This report. is one of my biggest worries. Ministers may say that the Amendment 36 would, in essence, encourage the Prime Minister would never do that—that he or she incumbent Government to keep the House sitting, and could not possibly choose to use such an evil power—but not use the prerogative power of prorogation for purposes the truth is that the power to prorogue lies completely, for which it should not be used. utterly and solely with the Government. I think it Amendment 37 reflects the Committee’s findings that important for us to remove that power from Government the Bill still leaves to unwritten convention the requirement and put it in the hands of the House, just as the power that a Government should resign if they lose the confidence to adjourn the House for recesses lies with the House. of the House. The Deputy Prime Minister said to the House in July this year that the Bill would Mrs Laing: Indeed, and that power has been used by “strengthen the power of this House to throw out a Government the Government many times. I have noticed over the through a motion of no confidence”—[Official Report,5July past 13 years that there have been very long recesses 2010; Vol. 513, c. 32.] when it suited the last Government for the House of However, although that might have been the Deputy Commons not to be sitting and able to hold them to Prime Minister’s intention, the Bill does not do that. account. It is within the power of the Government to do Amendment 37 would require the Prime Minister to that, and although I have accused the last Labour resign within seven days of a motion of no confidence Government of behaving in a way that could be described being passed, and to advise the Queen to appoint a new as dishonourable in that respect, I would be the first to Prime Minister who had the best chance of securing the say that other Governments have been able to use the House’s confidence. power in the same way. The Government’s response to the Committee’s report Thomas Docherty: As I am a new Member, will the appears to show that they do not intend that an incumbent hon. Lady tell me which Government introduced the Government faced with a successful vote of no confidence September sittings to break up the very long summer should be required to resign. The response states: recess? “A Government is able now, and would be able under the Bill, to remain in office after a no confidence motion and contest a general election.” 6.30 pm That is a very serious state of affairs. The Committee Mrs Laing: I concede that point to the hon. Gentleman. carefully examined the consequences of the Bill before It was right to introduce September sittings. When I was putting that in its report, but the fact is that the Bill will a new Member, serious events were occurring in Northern allow a Government to remain in office after a no Ireland in, I think, 1998 and the House was recalled in confidence motion and to contest a general election. September. We flew in from all over the world—well, That raises a number of constitutional questions, and from Millport and similar places. We all flew back from I wish to put four to the Minister. First, do the Government far-flung places, even Essex. It was realised that having intend that the incumbent Government should be able 367 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 368 to force an early general election following a vote of no My final question to the Minister is on how the Bill confidence even where an alternative Government with strengthens the power of the House to throw out a a potential majority in the House are clearly waiting in Government by a motion of no confidence. The Select the wings? Committee considered that question as carefully as we My second question relates to a matter that my hon. could in the time given for pre-legislative scrutiny and Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) referred to: there is a general opinion that the Bill does not strengthen have the Government considered that an incumbent the power of the House to throw out a Government on Government might engineer a vote of no confidence in a motion of no confidence. I would argue, however, that themselves, requiring only a simple majority, and then the House has at present a pretty good power that it can simply sit it out for two weeks to force an early general exercise to throw out a Government on a motion of no election? Once again, although I have every confidence confidence. I do not believe that the Bill strengthens that the current Government and the Minister at the that position and the Deputy Prime Minister ought not Dispatch Box would not behaviour dishonourably, the to say that it does when it does not. Bill gives a future Government the power to do that. Mark Durkan: With the exception of amendment 5, As I mentioned in an intervention on my hon. Friend the amendments basically try to make the Bill more the Member for Stone, some Members of the Canadian complete and more cogent by ensuring that there is less Parliament raised this issue at a Commonwealth ambiguity about convention. That is particularly the Parliamentary Association conference held here last case with amendment 25, which would remove from the week. There is a constitutional difficulty in Canada at Prime Minister and the Whips the ability to whisper the moment, because more than one vote of confidence confidence and no confidence in people’s ears, to play has been held at the instigation of the Government. My the question like a joker that is wild and to use it in hon. Friend said that he is not particularly interested in relation to any issue that is uncomfortable for the examples from other countries, and I agree that just Government or on which Back Benchers are exercising because something happens in Canada does not mean their consciences and discretion. that it will happen here. However, Canada’s constitution I gave the example in an intervention earlier of the and Government are constructed similarly to ours and way in which that process was used with the then we ought to learn lessons or at least look at the warning Counter-Terrorism Bill. Labour MPs who had said that signs from a place whose legislature is so similar. they would vote in good conscience against 42-day Thirdly, have the Government considered that an detention were prevailed on with the threat of its being a incumbent Prime Minister whose party has narrowly matter of confidence or no confidence. The then Prime lost a general election might refuse to resign and instead Minister said to me that he would not even table a choose to face the House of Commons, as Stanley motion of no confidence if he lost that vote, but that he Baldwin did in January 1924—the shadow Minister would deem it to be a vote of no confidence and would go referred to that—and as the right hon. Member for straight away. In the first conversation, he said that the Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) could, in vote would have been followed by a no confidence theory, have done this May? A vote of no confidence in motion but later on, he said that he would not even bother those circumstances would give the incumbent Prime with a no confidence motion and would go straight to Minister the choice of either resigning or forcing another an election. I know that that threat brought some Back general election. Benchers into line and they voted against their consciences and against their stated intentions. An incumbent Prime Minister would not be able to If we are serious about altering the balance of the exercise that choice at the moment, because the convention powers in the hands of the Executive and the Whips, we is that the monarch, under her existing prerogative should support amendment 25, which states that a no powers, would almost certainly not agree to dissolve confidence motion for the purposes of the Bill must Parliament so soon after an election where there was a explicitly be a no confidence motion in either the Prime viable alternative Government. Nevertheless, the Bill, as Minister or the Government. Making it clear and explicit drafted, would leave the question open, and it is our in those terms removes the ambiguity and bullying duty as a Parliament not to put the monarch under element and restores clarity. pressure to make a decision; we should never have a The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) has situation where the monarch has to exercise her prerogative made strong arguments for amendments 36 and 37. power in order to keep the incumbent Prime Minister in They would remove possible ambiguity and abuse as line, as it were. well as a lot of confusion and speculation that might This is another matter that could easily be dealt with arise about otherwise serious circumstances. I commend by amendment 37, which states: all those amendments to the Committee. “Where the House of Commons passes a motion of no Another virtue of amendment 25 is that it would go confidence in Her Majesty’s Government, the Prime Minister some way to mitigating many of the concerns about the shall tender his resignation to Her Majesty within a period of Speaker’s certificate and the challenges and questions seven days of the motion being passed.” that might be raised about it, which are legitimately the The amendment is quite simple and, again, is not intended subject of subsequent amendments. Because I care for to run a coach and horses through the Bill—far from it. the issues raised by those subsequent amendments, I As I have said on many occasions, I support the Bill and would make the point that amendment 25 is relevant in I want it to go through, because it is necessary for the containing the problems with the Speaker’s certificate stability of the Government and of the coalition at a that they aim to address. time when we need stability. What the Select Committee Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): As a new is trying to do through these amendments is simply Member, I think that many of the public will be quite assist the Government to improve the Bill. puzzled by some of the matters that are being discussed 369 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 370

[Sheila Gilmore] Sheila Gilmore: Members of the Committee were dissatisfied with various Government responses, including and will probably be quite surprised that there was such that one. It was partly because of the lack of clarity in a lack of clarity about what a matter of confidence is. this area that we came up with a number of amendments, Given that the question of confidence in a Government including some of those being debated. is fundamental, as was expressed eloquently earlier by This is a simple matter. Let me bring it back to where many speakers, it is very important that we get this the public are coming from and what they would want right. us to do. I think they would want us to produce something I have not been through some of the experiences that out of the Bill, even though it is not an ideal way of others clearly have, but I have heard them talk about going about constitutional reform, that is simple, clear them and it seems wrong that such a question should be and understandable, and we should proceed on that used as a sword of Damocles over Members who might basis. have legitimate views about a particular part of a policy— even if it is the policy of a Government whom they Thomas Docherty: I regret that I have been unable to support. Had I been a Member of the previous Parliament, be here as much today as on other days, but hon. I am sure that detention would have been an issue on Members will appreciate that I had Select Committee which I would not have supported the Government’s business. I have been fascinated to see so many Liberal position. So I can see exactly why it is right to have a Democrats here. Perhaps the Minister will reflect on definition. why a record number of Lib Dems have turned up to hear how to bring about the collapse of a Government 6.45 pm now or in future. I am sure he will feed all this back to Some of the problems we face with the Bill come the Deputy Prime Minister when he next sees him. back to fundamental issues that were raised by the I shall try to stick to the issue at hand, Mr Amess. I Select Committee of which the hon. Member for Epping strongly welcome the work of the Political and Forest (Mrs Laing) and I have the pleasure to be a part. Constitutional Reform Committee and it is a matter of Constitutional reform in this Parliament seems to be some regret on both sides of the House that the Deputy backwards-forwards, with little bits of constitutional Prime Minister did not take the time for any other reform being picked up here and there without any real pre-legislative scrutiny. Opposition Members and several view or vision of what this is all about and why we are Government Members have tried to strengthen the Bill. making those particular bits of constitutional reform Of course, we are not opposed to the principle of and not others. Should we be considering more fundamental fixed-term Parliaments, although we would prefer a issues? I know that the Chair of the Select Committee term of four years to five. Our aim is to try to make sure would be very keen for this Parliament to consider that we have clarity, so it is disappointing that we have whether we should have a written constitution and if so not yet heard from the Minister any of the necessary what should be in it. Perhaps we should do that rather clarity about what would constitute a vote of no confidence. than picking off pieces of legislation here and there. We had similar issues with the previous constitutional Bill, Obviously, as a new Member, I do not have the same which addressed a number of important issues but in a experience and length of service as many Members on ham-fisted way. It put together a number of issues that both sides of the House, but having recently read Mr Alistair have since caused a lot of Members in this House and, I Campbell’s “Diaries”—an excellent read—I was struck suspect, in the other place, some difficulty. by the account of an occasion when the previous Conservative Government threatened to use a no confidence In our discussions on this Bill, many people have motion to stay in office. I am sure the hon. Member for spoken up clearly in favour of fixed-term Parliaments Stone (Mr Cash) and others can confirm that. You, too, but have not liked other parts of the Bill or have found Mr Amess, may recall those days. them unacceptable. If we had come at this— It seems to me a slightly grubby, if not shabby, state The Temporary Chair: Order. I have been listening to of affairs for a Prime Minister of whatever hue to try to the hon. Lady very carefully, but she is beginning to use drive through legislation by using such a threat. general language and I ask her to draw her remarks more closely to the amendments we are debating. Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): We heard earlier from the Labour Front-Bench spokesman about the Sheila Gilmore: My comments arose out of the grubby attitudes of Prime Ministers who threatened confidence issue. If we have a clear definition in relation that losing a vote would lead to a general election. Does to confidence at least, the proceedings of the House will the hon. Gentleman agree that that history repeated be clearer to the public, which is important. If we itself on many occasions during the last 13 years? Does agreed to the definition in the amendment, we would all he condemn that sort of attitude? be clear about when we were dealing with such an important matter. That is a very simple change. Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Chris Bryant: As my hon. Friend is on the Select for those comments. As I was not a Member during the Committee, will she comment on its recommendation last 13 years, I shall have to wait for the second volume that there should be greater clarity regarding the of Mr Campbell’s “Diaries”. However, the hon. Gentleman’s circumstances in which a Government lose the confidence point is not invalid. No Prime Minister of whatever hue of the House and when that would trigger a general should be allowed to hold a gun to the head of his own election? Were she and members of the Committee side. As much as I am a fan of our Whips Office—we satisfied with the Government’s response to that have excellent Whips and several of them are hovering recommendation? This still seems immensely ambiguous near me, so I may make that point again—as my hon. to me. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) has 371 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill24 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 372 already said, if the Bill is not clarified, which I hope the 1997 general election, when Labour, the Liberal Democrats Minister will do tonight, the Whips Offices will have an and civic society in Scotland got together for a five-year immense power of threat. As my hon. Friend the Member constitutional convention and teased out over that period for Foyle (Mark Durkan) pointed out earlier in his exactly the mechanisms that would lead to a no-confidence excellent remarks, there was at least one occasion when vote. As I mentioned earlier, using the example of legislation that, on reflection, was unnecessary, and Scotland, if the Budget falls in the Scottish Parliament, may indeed have exceeded requirements, was jammed that does not automatically trigger an early general through. That also relates to the point made by the hon. election. What happens is that the Presiding Officer of Gentleman. For those reasons, I very much welcome my the Scottish Parliament has to set out that there will be hon. Friends’ proposals on the 14-day period. If there is a vote of no confidence later. a period of reflection, we could make a change. I have huge respect for our Speaker. He is doing an Mr Cash: The hon. Gentleman spoke about his excellent job. enthusiasm for the Speaker. Does he agree that we must make certain that under no circumstances should the Sir Peter Soulsby: On the question of Governments Speaker’s certificate be decided through the courts? using devices to avoid the will of the House, does my The provision in the clause raises a serious question. hon. Friend agree that it is vitally important that the The Clerk of the House was entirely right in his assessment. House approves amendment 36, which has been proposed Furthermore, when the House votes on the amendments, by the Select Committee? It is designed to make sure it must decide that it will not under any circumstances that the Government cannot use their prerogative as a allow the Speaker’s certificate to be decided by the device to prorogue the House to avoid complying with courts, and that the wording of the 1911 Act— its will. Thomas Docherty: I thank my hon. Friend for that The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means remark and I congratulate him, as well as the hon. (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Interventions must be brief. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), on the work of the Select Committee. My hon. Friend is entirely correct. Thomas Docherty: I agree entirely with the hon. As the Bill stands, it gives the Prime Minister and the Gentleman, who has yet again identified the matter as a Chief Whip vast power. It is the responsibility of Parliament cross-House, cross-party, cross-views issue. It is not to be a check on the Executive branch. I seem to be about tripping up the Government, but about providing filling the Chamber, so this is of some interest. Members clarity and ensuring that the matter is not resolved in on both sides of the House have consistently made the the courts. argument that we have a duty to hold the Executive to account. Sir Peter Soulsby: On the point about providing I am, as I said, a massive fan of the Speaker, although clarity, does my hon. Friend agree that it is vital that I accept that I do not have much with which to compare amendment 37 is passed? Without that, it is not clear his activities. There is a serious danger that if the Bill what would happen as a result of a vote of no confidence. continues its passage without suitable alteration, we are Amendment 37 makes it clear what follows from that placing our Speaker and subsequent Speakers in an and provides that necessary clarity in what might otherwise extremely difficult position. I counsel the Committee to be a very uncertain period. think carefully when we come to vote. Thomas Docherty: Yet again, my hon. Friend is correct. Chris Bryant: In relation to that, may I put to my We have seen no signal from the Government—I will hon. Friend the point that I tried to put to the Minister happily to give way to the Minister if he wishes to earlier, but which he was not able to answer? Under the signal—that they will take on board the sensible, reasoned, provisions of the clause, if the House had carried a bipartisan approach offered by the Select Committee. It motion calling for an early general election by a majority is disappointing that the Minister does not wish to take of 10 or 20 votes but not by the required super-majority, that simple point on board. As the hon. Gentleman would the Speaker be able to determine that that was a said, the issue cannot be resolved in the courts, because motion of confidence, or would the Prime Minister be it would be an embarrassment to this House—a House able to declare that it was a matter of confidence or no that has stood in one form or another for 900 years—if confidence in his Government, thereby qualifying under we were forced to resort to them. We are not the the second category and in effect, therefore, manufacturing Americans, I am pleased to say, and our political process an early general election? should be decided through the will of the people and through their elected representatives. We should not pay Thomas Docherty: As ever, my hon. Friend succinctly high-value, slick lawyers to scurry off to the Supreme hits the nail on the head. The Bill is a mess because the Court to try to overturn— Government did not take full advantage of the opportunity for pre-legislative scrutiny. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- 7pm op): Does my hon. Friend agree that, unfortunately, Debate interrupted (Programme Orders, 13 September that is becoming a hallmark of the Government, particularly and this day). in relation to any constitutional change affecting Scotland? The occupant of the Chair left the Chair to report progress and ask leave to sit again. Thomas Docherty: I thank my hon. Friend. I will not repeat my previous lecture on US constitutional history, The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. but it worth reflecting on what happened before the Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. 373 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 24 NOVEMBER 2010 374

DEFERRED DIVISIONS House of Commons Commission Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 41A(3)), 7.1 pm That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motions in the name of Sir The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of George Young relating to House of Commons Commission.— the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I beg to (Mr Vara.) move, Question agreed to. That Sir Stuart Bell be discharged and Mr Frank Doran be appointed as a member of the House of Commons Commission under the House of Commons (Administration) Act 1978. The motion simply replaces one member of the House of Commons Commission with another. The individual leaving the Commission, the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell), has been a member since 2000. He is a long-standing Member of this House who has already received the signal recognition of a knighthood from Her Majesty in 2004. I am sure the whole House will want to place on the record its appreciation of his long service to the Commission under the chairmanship of two Speakers. Mr Speaker, as you know, the last decade has not been an easy time for the Commission, dominated as it has been by the problems associated with Members’ allowances. This is not the right time to reopen old wounds, suffice to say the Commission has sometimes been identified by the outside world as a roadblock to reform. That has not always been the case. Of course there are many other areas in which the Commission has an important influence over the House, and hon. Members will wish to thank those who serve on the Commission for their contribution to the effective working of this place. May I warmly welcome to the Commission, if the House agrees to the motion, the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran), who has been an assiduous and effective member of House Committees over the past five years as a distinguished Chair of the Administration Committee and as a member of the Finance and Service, Liaison and Accommodation and Works Committees? At a time when the Commission, quite rightly, will be considering a programme of efficiencies in the way Parliament operates, the House will be reassured by the wealth of experience and knowledge that the hon. Gentleman will bring to those discussions. I commend the motion to the House.

7.2 pm Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): I am very pleased to support the motion. One thing that Members learn after a few years in the House is that those who serve on the House’s internal Committees do a vast amount of work, which often goes unrecognised, so I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) for his service to the House over a number of years. My hon. Friend is a long-standing Member, and prior to becoming the Member for Middlesbrough, he fought an election in the constituency of Hexham. He was Parliamentary Private Secretary to Roy Hattersley; served on the Front Bench as a spokesman on trade and industry and on Northern Ireland; and, latterly, has given sterling service to the House of Commons Commission and the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. It has not been an easy time, but I put on the record my personal thanks for the amount of work he did in trying 375 House of Commons Commission24 NOVEMBER 2010 House of Commons Commission 376 to explain to the general public exactly what Members’ and of individual Members. I know that the hon. expenses were for and how they were dealt with. It was Gentleman will appreciate the thanks expressed to him at times an uphill task, but he made a sterling effort. in the course of the debate on the motion. I also welcome, if the House agrees to the motion, the Of course, I associate myself, as Speaker and as the appointment of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen person who chairs the Commission, with what the North (Mr Doran) to the Commission. At various Deputy Leader of the House and the hon. Lady have times he has been the Member for Aberdeen North, said about the hon. Member for Aberdeen North Aberdeen Central and Aberdeen South—without moving (Mr Doran), who has a long-standing and respected very far. I know from having had the privilege of track record of commitment to this institution and to serving with him on the Administration Committee the various Committees which are so vital to its effective that he has a devotion to the interests of this House and functioning. its Members, and that he brings to everything he does an energy and commitment, as well as an analytical Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): mind and a real commitment to getting the best possible On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have found out deal for Members. this evening, I think perhaps because of the events I am very pleased to support the motion, and I going on outside, that somebody who is currently under commend it to the House. investigation by the House’s Standards and Privileges Committee has been awarded a parliamentary pass. Question put and agreed to. Given that there are some very serious accusations and allegations, and indeed that this investigation is going Mr Speaker: Let me take this opportunity to thank on, would you perhaps talk to the Serjeant at Arms and the Deputy Leader of the House and the hon. Member report back to me, privately if it is not appropriate to do for Warrington North (Helen Jones) for what they have so in the House, to clarify whether it is appropriate for said by way of tribute to the hon. Member for Members to have to share offices and corridors with Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell). The contribution that somebody who is under investigation by one of our own he has made has been enormous; it is, and certainly Committees? should be, widely appreciated across the House. My understanding is that the hon. Gentleman has served on Mr Speaker: I note what the hon. Gentleman has the Commission since 21 February 2000, so his service said. The allocation of passes is not a matter ordinarily dates back well over 10 years, and it follows that he has subject to comment or exchange on the Floor of the sat on the Commission under three successive Speakers. House. However, I am happy to acquaint myself with I know of the seriousness with which he has taken his the detail of the issue that he has described and, if commitment to the Commission and the passion that appropriate, I will revert to him. I hope that that is he feels for the interests of the House as an institution helpful to the hon. Gentleman and to the House. 377 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 378

Constitutional Law Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): In the light of the Minister’s comments and the criticisms that there have been of the 2007 election, why is now not the 7.8 pm moment to rethink the fact that there will be two The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland different types of election next year, and potentially in (David Mundell): I beg to move, 2015 as well? That could be avoided entirely by the That the draft Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2010, Government changing their mind. which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved. The order consolidates the rules for the conduct of David Mundell: As the hon. Lady will know, having the Scottish Parliament elections and ensures that the contributed to other debates, that issue has been debated accepted recommendations from the Gould report, and in the House during the consideration of the Parliamentary a subsequent inquiry by the Scottish Affairs Committee, Voting System and Constituencies Bill and the Fixed-term will apply for the May 2011 election. The draft order Parliaments Bill. However, I will address it later in my has been available to electoral administrators and political remarks. parties since it was laid in Parliament on 25 October—more than six months ahead of the 2011 election. Indeed, an Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I appreciate that earlier version of the draft order was circulated to the Minister has changed his mind—he is perfectly electoral administrators in April and to political parties entitled to do that—but he prays in aid Mr Gould. in June. From memory, I am sure that Mr Gould’s recommendation Many Members will remember that more than 180,000 was that there should never be two elections of different votes were lost due to rejected ballot papers in the 2007 sorts on the same day. The order rather seems to run Scottish Parliament and local government elections. counter to that core recommendation. That is totally unacceptable in a modern democracy, and there was widespread public outrage at the time. David Mundell: I think the hon. Gentleman’s memory Indeed, I instigated a debate on the subject in the House betrays him. If he had been paying particular attention in May 2007. to the helpful contribution of the Scottish Affairs Committee on the Parliamentary Voting System and Ron Gould was commissioned by the Electoral Constituencies Bill in September, he would have seen Commission to review the 2007 Scottish elections, and that Mr Gould had said: concluded that six main factors had contributed to confusion, and so to the level of rejected papers. First, “The marking of yes or no on a referendum ballot is much easier to understand and carry out than the requirements of there were many problems with the design of the ballot marking an STV ballot”— papers. Secondly, a new proportional voting system for local government elections was introduced, and voters a ballot under the single transferable vote. He also said: were confused by using two electoral systems on the “I do not believe that the same factors which led to voter same day. Thirdly, there had been poor co-ordination of confusion and the large number of rejected ballots at the last the publicity campaigns of the Electoral Commission, Scottish Parliamentary and Municipal elections would arise if both the Parliamentary Election and the Referendum were held the Scottish Government and others. Fourthly, there on the same date.” were problems caused by electronic counting. Fifthly, there had been fragmented and late legislation on the Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) matter and a lack of involvement in the legislative (SNP): Will the right hon. Gentleman welcome, as I do, process by electoral administrators. Sixthly, there was a the partial acceptance of the thrust of the Scottish lack of co-ordination within the electoral community National party and Plaid Cymru’s new clause 4 of the and a fragmented approach to planning. Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, which will allay the fears There is no doubt that public confidence needed to be of the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) repaired after the problems in 2007, and I believe that a about the 2015 election occurring on the same day as a successfully administered UK general election in UK general election? Scotland earlier this year will have gone some way to doing that. However, I am pleased to say that the David Mundell: I will, and I was pleased to read his Scotland Office has continued the work started by the contribution to the debate on the Bill on the day he previous Administration of implementing the Gould refers to, as well as the contribution of the hon. Member recommendations, and the subsequent recommendations for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who also welcomed the of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, that the consultation thatthe Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Government accepted at the time. Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): (Mr Harper), is undertaking in relation to the 2015 The Minister mentioned that he raised the matter some elections and the subsequent elections, each 20 years, at time ago, after the last Scottish Parliament election. He which there might be a clash of dates. might also recall that in 2004, a Member of the Scottish Parliament for the South of Scotland region argued Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Does the right very coherently that we should decouple elections. Does hon. Gentleman concede that while there may be a he agree with himself that that is the best way forward? general election and a Scottish election on the same day, the decoupling of the Scottish election and local elections, David Mundell: I regret that, at that time, the Labour as a result of the Gould report, means that the local party did not accept the coherence of my argument. It elections will be out of kilter and that it is not inconceivable was, of course, the Labour-led Scottish Executive who that a general election under an alternative vote system insisted that the Scottish local government elections could be held on the same day as a local council election and the Scottish Parliament election went ahead together. under the single transferable vote? 379 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 380

David Mundell: Clearly, it is not inconceivable that David Mundell: I will give preference to Back Benchers such a thing might happen. However, in accordance at this stage. with the Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill, that scenario is unlikely. A helpful contribution that the hon. Gentleman, Michael Connarty: I am grateful to the Minister. He his Front Bench colleagues and his other hon. Friends is smirking all over his face, but does he not realise that could make is that following next year’s elections to the people are watching this? He is saying that he does not Scottish Parliament, they could take forward a proposal care that the people of Scotland, most of whom did not to repeal STV as a voting system for local government vote for his party—that is why he is the lone Conservative elections in Scotland. That was a proposal that the Scotland Member—or the Scottish Parliament, which Labour party adhered to without even asking the people is elected by the people of Scotland, have been ignored. of Scotland to participate in a referendum. He is representing the contemptuous behaviour of this Government at that Dispatch Box. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): I am all for helping out the right hon. Gentleman. It is not often that he and I agree with each other, but has he talked to David Mundell: That is a ridiculous suggestion. The his coalition partners about such a change in policy? Government will listen to the Scottish Parliament. Had the debate there revealed any new or different argument David Mundell: As the hon. Gentleman knows, this is that was not reflected in the debate in the House, we a coalition in the Westminster Parliament, and the would have considered it, but nothing new was said. arrangement in that coalition was that there should be a Indeed, as I pointed out previously, less information referendum on AVas the United Kingdom voting system. was available from that debate than was available from I wish that his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament had the debate in this House. In addition, I have not heard perhaps pressed more strongly in their own coalition the hon. Gentleman advocate the UK Parliament giving negotiations for a referendum to be the requirement for up its right to determine the UK voting system and the introduction of STV for local government in Scotland. dates for elections to the Scottish Parliament.

Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- Mr MacNeil: To rewind, the hon. Member for Glasgow op): I thank the right hon. Gentleman for so generously North West (John Robertson) said that he did not often giving way. If he is so keen on the Scottish Parliament agree with the Minister. Will the Minister extend the making strong representations, what account is he taking olive branch further and say that he and the Labour of the strong recommendation from the Scottish Parliament party prefer Tory cuts to Scottish independence? that the referendum and the election should not take place on the same day? David Mundell: The people of Scotland prefer being David Mundell: The hon. Lady will be pleased to part of the UK to Scottish independence, but we are know that I read in detail the debate that took place in not debating that this evening; we are debating the the Scottish Parliament on this subject. The hon. Member Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2010. for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) was able to bring to that debate her reflections on her time in Westminster. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): I am sure that even she would recognise that during the There is only a handful of Lib Dems in the Chamber course of that debate, nothing was said that had not tonight, but where is the Secretary of State for Scotland? already been said in this Parliament in the debate on the What important, pressing issue means that he did not Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. want to come here to take part in this vital debate? No new argument was made by that day’s coalition of Labour and Scottish National party Members. David Mundell: The Secretary of State had confidence that I would be in a position to make the case for the Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): I rise to order. The hon. Gentleman had the opportunity last respond to the provocation by the right hon. Gentleman. week to ask where the Secretary of State for Northern Does he not agree that in that debate last week, we saw a Ireland was when the equivalent Northern Ireland order remarkable agreement between the Scottish Labour was debated, and he will likewise have a similar opportunity party and the Scottish National party—that is something to ask where the Secretary of State for Wales is when that we do not often get—which indicates the strength the equivalent Wales order is debated next week. of feeling in Scotland against the Government’s proposals? On the Gould recommendation for a six-month cut-off David Mundell: I do not accept that at all. I have read for changes in the law that governs the conduct of the transcript. As the hon. Lady knows, the arguments elections, we have ensured that the electoral administrators that have been made previously in this Parliament were and political parties are well versed in the changes to simply rehearsed; some were made without using the the legislation well in advance of May 2011. Indeed, I available information. I noted that she and others did discussed the order this week with Mary Pitcaithly, the not point out Ron Gould’s contribution to the Scottish new chair of the Electoral Management Board for Affairs Committee, which I quoted earlier. He said Scotland, and I have arranged a further meeting with explicitly that it would be possible for the referendum her and representatives of the board on 21 December. and the Scottish Parliament elections to go ahead on The targeted 5 November working date for making the same day. the order would be challenging for whichever party won Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ the recent general election. However, the projected date Co-op) rose— for making the order is considerably earlier than the equivalent order before the last Scottish Parliament Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab) election, which was made less than two months before rose— the date of the poll. 381 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 382

Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Will David Mundell: No, I want to make some progress. I the Minister tell the House—or put the information in also want to leave time for the many Members from the Library—how many people have contacted him Scotland to make their contributions to the debate. who support this particular proposal? I want to comment on the four points about the draft David Mundell: I presume that the hon. Gentleman is order that were raised by the Joint Committee on Statutory referring to the Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Instruments. First, article 2 of the order defines the Order 2010. I was not aware that there was a dispute term “European parliamentary election” without that over the order, which will regulate next year’s elections. term being used in the text of the order. Secondly, The provisions of the order have been widely consulted rule 20(3)(a) in schedule 2 includes among the minor on—by the Electoral Commission, the Scotland Office errors that returning officers can correct in nomination and the Scottish Affairs Committee—and they have papers received support even from the Labour party in the “errors as to a person’s electoral number”. form of the EMB representation. However, unlike the nomination papers for election to Mr Roy: In short, does that mean that no one has this House, the nomination papers for Scottish contacted the Minister? parliamentary elections do not contain proposers’ electoral numbers, thus rendering the reference unnecessary. Both David Mundell: The public had confidence that the those errors, while regrettable, have no effect on the political parties in Scotland and the professionals who operation of the order. My officials will ensure that serve on the EMB were taking forward measures that returning officers are aware that the reference to electoral had agreement across the political spectrum. However, numbers can safely be ignored and that the unnecessary if the hon. Gentleman has any specific concerns about provisions will be removed at the first suitable opportunity the content of the order, which is essentially the same as to amend the order. the one promoted by his Government, I would be Thirdly, the Committee also highlighted article 3(1), delighted to address them. which deals with the disregarding of late alterations to The order applies the recommendations of Gould the register of electors, and, fourthly, article 4(5), which and the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, which deals with the effect of alterations to the register where were accepted by the previous Government, to next there has been an appeal against a registration officer’s year’s election. It is a large order, and I want to focus on decision. Those provisions have been set out in a the main changes since 2007. substantially similar form in previous versions of the Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): I am a member order since 2002, and so far as I know, they have not of the Scottish Affairs Committee, as the Minister is prejudiced voters or the effective administrations of aware, and I cannot remember us saying that we previous elections. On reviewing those articles in light recommended that the referendum and the Scottish of the Committee’s comments, we are of the view that elections should take place on the same day. I am quite there is an overlap with the provisions of the Representation sure that the Committee would have been against that. of the People Act 1983 that renders those provisions Notwithstanding that, on the subject of the alternative unnecessary. Those points were not raised until after vote, is he prepared to say how he personally might the draft order had been considered by the Electoral vote? Commission and had been laid. We propose proceeding with the order in its current form, and we will revisit David Mundell: I am very clear that I will be voting those provisions once we have the benefit of consulting no in the AV referendum. with the Electoral Commission and other interested Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I parties. As the equivalent provisions in previous orders know that the Minister was tempted by that question, have apparently not caused difficulty for voters or electoral but perhaps we could stick to the draft order before us. administrators at previous elections, we do not anticipate any difficulty with those provisions as drafted. David Mundell: I give way to the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell). Mr Frank Roy: Is not the fact that there are so many Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): Perhaps we mistakes that have to be rectified evidence that the order can reframe the question. With 60 seconds on the is being pushed through the House far too early? doorstep to speak to a voter in your constituency, will you talk to them about the AV referendum, or will you David Mundell: I do not think that it is evidence of press the case for your party in Scotland? that at all. The hon. Gentleman will know from his Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. It is not me who will long service in government that from time to time there be doing that. I would be grateful if hon. Members will inevitably be small errors in such large documents, addressed their remarks to the Minister, not to me. and particularly ones that have been carried over from documents and orders passed by the previous David Mundell: I will take your advice and stick to Administration. the discussion of the order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I Moving on to the substance of the order, we have would like to refer hon. Members—I am sure that they consolidated legislation on the conduct of Scottish will be interested in this—to a correction slip that was Parliament elections so that the majority of rules governing associated with the draft order. It makes a number of them are now in one document, making them easier for typographical corrections to the draft instrument, which electoral administrators and political parties to use. will become part of the final order for printing if the draft is approved by Parliament. The order sets out that for the 2011 elections we will return to a manual count of ballot papers for both the Thomas Docherty: Will the Minister give way? Scottish Parliament constituency and regional elections. 383 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 384

Fiona O’Donnell: Will the right hon. Gentleman give David Mundell: I am confident, as is the Electoral his view on the count taking place that night? Would it Management Board, that that process can be dealt be the count for one, two or three ballots? Does he with, but I will raise that specific issue of different foresee a problem if the counts are split, and the postal polling places—the hon. Gentleman has raised it before— ballots are returned together in one envelope? when I meet Mary Pitcaithly, and I will respond to him directly on that. David Mundell: The hon. Lady makes a valid point about postal votes and how they will be dealt with, and David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): The Minister is praying we will speak to the Electoral Management Board in aid the expertise of the Electoral Management Board about that. It is already clear that counts for the Scottish of Scotland. Does he recall that it comprises the very Parliament constituency and regional elections will take people who told us before the general election that if we place ahead of any count for the alternative vote proceeded with an overnight count, it would add two to referendum. three hours to the length of the count because of the need to check the identifiers on postal ballots? I said at Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): One problem with the time that that was outrageous scaremongering to joint elections is that some papers are inevitably put in put us off having an overnight count and that they had the wrong ballot box. Will not all the ballot boxes have not a shred of evidence. It turns out that I was right and to be opened on the night for all the elections so that the they were wrong. Will the Minister deal with the Electoral papers can be sorted out before a count can take place? Management Board with a degree caution, because up to now its advice has been spectacularly rubbish? David Mundell: Indeed, the verification count will be done first, and it will be exactly the same as in 1999 and David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman is better placed 2003, when local government elections were held on the than many others to know exactly how these organisations same day as the Scottish Parliament elections. operate. He will also know that Ron Gould, on whom so many Members place such emphasis, also recommended Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I hope that overnight counts should be done away with. That that I can be helpful. In the general election in May this was one of the proposals that the hon. Gentleman’s year, my count was combined with that for another Government quite rightly rejected. election. There was no problem at all in verifying the boxes first, and the odd stray ballot paper was easily Mr MacNeil: Has the Minister ever placed much allocated to the correct count. I hope that that example emphasis on Mr Ron Gould? helps to allay any fears that Opposition Members may have. David Mundell: I have not placed the same emphasis on Mr Ron Gould as the hon. Gentleman’s colleague, David Mundell: I am sure that it will. Miss Nicola Sturgeon, who questioned Mr Gould’s competence because he had the audacity to challenge Michael Connarty: The Minister said that he did not the wording “Alex Salmond for First Minister” on the envisage a time when local government elections, Scottish ballot paper as it might have confused the electors. Miss Government elections and even an election to this place Sturgeon thought that that was a ridiculous proposition. would coincide, but if there is a sequence of five years and four years, that situation will eventually occur. Mr MacNeil: I simply repeat my question: has the Given the chaos that occurred when two elections were Minister ever placed much emphasis on Mr Ron Gould? combined in Scotland, what provision has been made in the order to avoid such a clash, or will there be a count David Mundell: Mr Ron Gould provided an authoritative system lasting three or four days? report that is reflected in the order and in the subsequent Scottish Affairs Select Committee inquiry, but not David Mundell: This a stand-alone order, which regulates everything that he said at the time was taken forward. the conduct of Scottish Parliament elections. As I said to the former Minister, the hon. Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns), the previous Government’s Mr Frank Roy: We have heard that some ballot choice of proposals not to be taken forward was quite papers could go into the wrong ballot boxes. Is the right. Minister saying that all ballot boxes will be opened to be verified, regardless of what the election is? Cathy Jamieson: I want to ask the Minister for absolute clarity on this. He has cited the Scottish Affairs Select David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Committee a number of times. Would he accept that election campaigner, and he knows that in 1999 and Ron Gould did not tell the Committee that it was a 2003, when the Scottish Parliament and local government good thing to hold the two elections on the same day? elections were held on the same day, that is exactly what He said it would be possible to do it, but he did not happened. Whatever safeguards we put in place, it is not endorse it. impossible for a member of the public to put the wrong ballot paper into the wrong ballot box. David Mundell: I think that I have quoted Mr Gould in full, and I think he is quite clear— Ian Murray: I want to probe the Minister on that point. If someone voting in the AV referendum has to Tom Greatrex: Perhaps the Minister could read out go to a different polling station to vote in the Scottish the sentence before the quote from Ron Gould that he Parliament elections, how will the Minister ensure that has already read out so that the House can appreciate their votes are verified properly? the full point that Ron Gould was making. 385 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 386

David Mundell: If I had been able to complete my 28 days, and to accommodate the administrative demands response to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and of increased postal voting there will be a longer period Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), I would have acknowledged between close of nominations and the date of election that Mr Ron Gould’s preference was for separate elections. from 16 days before the poll to 23 days. It was also his preference that there should be no The deadline for registering to vote by post and the overnight counts at elections because of the opportunity earliest time that postal votes can be issued is still for mistakes to be made. He said: 11 days before the poll. This longer period between the “The marking of yes or no on a referendum ballot is much close of nominations and the date of the election helps easier to understand and carry out than the requirements of to accommodate the increased demand to vote by post. marking an STV ballot.” Once all names of all candidates are known, ballot He also said: papers can be printed without any delays and sent out “I do not believe that the same factors which led to voter immediately after the deadline for registering for a confusion and the large number of rejected ballots at the last postal vote has passed. For consistency, we have brought Scottish Parliamentary and Municipal elections would arise if the control of donations to candidates and limits on both the…Parliamentary Election and the Referendum were held candidates expenses into line with the principles set out on the same date”. in the Westminster rules. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Apart from the consolidation of the 2008 and 2009 Co-op): What assessment has the Minister made of the amendments to the 2007 order, the main new changes possibility of confusion arising from some people being that have been made are as follows. Article 5(2) has been able to vote in the Scottish Parliament elections next amended to reflect the provisions of sections 18A and year but not being entitled to vote in the referendum? 18B of the Representation of the People Act 1983, which set out the requirements for the review of polling David Mundell: I am confident that that issue will be districts and places. Article 36 applies to candidates at addressed by the electoral authorities. There are different Scottish parliamentary elections—other than party list electoral franchises, and the electoral registers make it candidates—the regime for control of donations to clear who is on which franchise. I cannot guarantee that candidates that applies to parliamentary elections by no one will be disappointed after turning up to vote in virtue of section 71A of the Representation of the an election and finding that they are not entitled to do People Act 1983. so, but their status and their entitlement to vote will be Article 43 limits the expenses that may be incurred by determined not by their confusion but by the legal or on behalf of candidates—other than party list position in relation to the franchise. candidates—in the pre-candidacy or long campaign period before a Scottish parliamentary general election. Mark Lazarowicz: I understand that, but at some This reflects the position that applies to parliamentary polling stations in my constituency, up to 10% of the general elections by virtue of section 76ZA of the electorate could be entitled to vote in the Scottish Representation of the People Act 1983. parliamentary election but not in the AV referendum. Article 47 incorporates the revised requirements for Does that not create the potential for confusion not candidates’ returns for election expenses contained in only for those voters but for the people working in the section 81 of the Representation of the People Act 1983. polling stations and for every other elector as well? Article 74 now reflects the requirements of section 110 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 in relation David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman’s comments will to the information that has to appear on election no doubt have been heard by the Electoral Commission publications. and those who are going to produce the information Article 88 increases the minimum period between the material about the elections to be held next May that Dissolution of the Scottish Parliament and the day of will be delivered to every household in Scotland. poll from 21 to 28 days. This reflects the increase in the overall timetable for Scottish Parliament elections Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): To recommended in the Gould report. I am sure that the be helpful to the Minister, I would like to point out that Opposition Front-Bench team will note the impact of in London we had the mayoral elections as well as the the royal wedding bank holiday on the date of Dissolution European elections, which have very different electorates. of the Scottish Parliament ahead of the Scottish elections. If the Minister— This reflects the increase in the overall timetable for Scottish Parliament elections that was recommended in Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sure that the the Gould report. Minister is very grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s help, Paragraphs 1(3) and 2(5) of schedule 1 have been but let us stick to Scotland. amended to allow electoral registration officers to supply returning officers and other persons or organisations David Mundell: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. with a consolidated version of the register that takes I shall continue with my summary of the order’s impact. account of any alterations, as opposed to having to There will be separate ballot papers for the constituency provide a copy of the original register and individual and regional votes. Registered party names must be copies of the notices of alteration. used on ballot papers, and the design of the ballot Rule 1 of schedule 2 provides the timetable for elections. paper follows the principles set out in the Electoral There is no longer to be a separate timetable for by-elections. Commission’s publication “Making your mark: Good Indeed, it may be of interest to hon. Ladies who are still practice for designing voter materials: guidance for members of the Scottish Parliament that the date has government policy-makers”. There will be a longer passed for which a Scottish Parliament by-election can timetable for running the election, increased from 21 to be held ahead of the Scottish Parliament elections. 387 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 388

Rule 20 of schedule 2 allows for minor errors on David Mundell: I am recognising that the coincidence nomination forms to be corrected by either the constituency of the Scottish Parliament and Westminster elections in or regional returning officer. Rule 48(3)(b) of schedule 2 2015 is a significant and legitimate concern. That is why has been amended to allow grandparents or grandchildren we are consulting on it. to assist a person with disabilities to vote at a polling The proposal for the new power would be consistent station. Rule 49(7) of schedule 2 now requires the voter with existing provisions in the Scotland Act on to sign the tendered votes list, which is in line with rule extraordinary elections. It would also allow a decision 40(3) of the parliamentary election rules. Rules 69 to 71 to be taken should it be decided at a later date that of schedule 2 and paragraph 30 of Schedule 4 have been elections should not be combined. amended to reflect the transfer of responsibility for the storage of election documents from sheriff clerks to The forthcoming Scotland Bill will signal the constituency returning officers. Government’s commitment to implementing the proposals of the Calman commission on Scottish devolution, Rules 72 to 78 of schedule 2 have been updated to including the recommendation to devolve responsibility reflect the provisions relating to the death of a candidate for the administration of elections. The Bill will be during the election period which were introduced by introduced in the House soon, but clearly it will not section 24 of the Electoral Administration Act 2006. have received Royal Assent by May 2011. Rule 79 of schedule 2 has been amended to specify what Finally, I should point out that not all the Gould information on Members should be entered in the Scottish recommendations were for the UK Government to act Parliament’s returns book, and to restrict the availability on; some were for the Scottish Government, the Electoral of the returns book for public inspection to the life of Commission or electoral administrators to implement. the Parliament or to such later time as the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament may direct. I hope that the House has been reassured that the draft order will take the necessary steps to ensure successful Paragraph 10 of schedule 3 has been amended to elections to the Scottish Parliament in May 2011, and I include a requirement for electoral registration officers commend it to the House. to inform a proxy that they have been appointed, and to inform that proxy of the length of their appointment. 7.49 pm Paragraphs 16 to 21 of schedule 3 provide for limited access to, and the supply of copies of, absent voting Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ records—such as the postal voters list—for candidates, Co-op): It is always a pleasure to follow the Minister. political parties and elected representatives, as well as As he explained, this order has been in preparation for a public inspection of those records under supervision. considerable time and it forms the final part, I think, of That reflects the United Kingdom position under the the Government’s response to the report undertaken by Representation of the People (Scotland) Regulations 2001. Ron Gould on behalf of the Electoral Commission following the 2007 Scottish Parliament elections. The Paragraph 5(5) of schedule 4 has been amended to length of the measure, at more than 200 pages, is allow the returning officer to determine which of a explained by the fact that it is a consolidating measure, candidate’s proposed agents are to be appointed for the and much of its content is uncontroversial and, I am purpose of attending the postal voting proceedings if sure, will assist the various interested parties required to the list submitted by the candidate contains more names implement its provisions. However, we have concerns than have been authorised by the returning officer. about the manner and timing of the measure’s introduction I think the House will acknowledge that we have to the House and about the fact that it is being manipulated already had a full discussion of the impact of holding to form part of a wider legislative change that has been AV referendum on the same day as the Scottish marked by excessive speed, political opportunism and a parliamentary elections. Opposition Members may wish concerning scarcity of competence. to make further contributions in the time that remains. The measure—all 200-plus pages of it—should have However, given that the hon. Member for Edinburgh been in place prior to the six month pre-election period East (Sheila Gilmore) raised the issue of the clash of as specifically recommended by the Gould report. I elections in 2015, which arises in the Fixed-term Parliaments noted that the Minister in his opening remarks danced Bill, I want to say a bit more about that. around the Gould recommendation about when it should have been in place by referring to consultation, but as The Government recognise the concerns raised about the Minister well knows, the recommendation was that the coincidence of elections, and we are consulting the it should be in place, rather than it should have been Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish published or made available to various individual electoral Government and the parties in Scotland. Specifically, administrators. I also recall that the Minister was fulsome in we are consulting on whether provision should be made his welcome for that recommendation in a previous life. in the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill enabling the Scottish Parliament to resolve, with a two-thirds majority, to We are considering this measure in the final week of delay its election by up to six months to avoid a coincidence November, despite the fact that the Government have with the elections to the House of Commons. That had since mid-May to take it forward and, as the would supplement the existing powers in the Scotland Minister said, much of the work on the measure was in Act which allow the Parliament to dissolve early. train under the previous Government. The Minister failed to explain satisfactorily why that is the case, and perhaps I can venture to suggest that it may be something Ian Murray: I am pleased that discussions are taking to do with the yellow rush of spurious and ill-conceived place with various bodies about the elections in 2015. Is constitutional change the Government are rushing through the Minister now conceding that it would be unwise for before their implications are widely realised. It is therefore two elections to be held on the same day? little wonder that solid and necessary measures such as 389 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 390

[Tom Greatrex] of State, who is absent tonight, singularly failed to consult the Scottish Executive on the clash of dates? this one do not get priority treatment, even though The Scottish Parliament’s view was clearly expressed Government Members have been aware for more than last week when, by 89 votes to 30, it said that the three years that it should be in place six months ahead elections to which this statutory instrument relates and of the Scottish Parliament elections. the referendum should not be combined. It seems that In between reading this order in detail this morning, I the “respect agenda” has been superseded by the old read some of today’s newspapers and learned that in and regressive new progressivism. what will no doubt come to be considered our esteemed I ask the Minister to address a number of questions Deputy Prime Minister’s seminal Hugo Young lecture about the content of this measure. The Gould report yesterday, he declared in his typically erudite, modest recommended the appointment of a chief returning and understated way that he is the intellectual driving officer. Why is that recommendation not being followed force of the “new progressivism”, an idea that will, through? Surely one of the main problems identified by perhaps, eventually catch on. Gould was the inconsistency in interpreting the guidelines. New progressivism is, it seems, a new name for the I am sure the Minister will recall that as a result of the old expediency of rushing through constitutional change number of list candidates who applied to stand in the without draft Bills, without pre-legislative scrutiny and 2007 elections, the returning officers in both Glasgow without consultation with affected bodies, all of which and Edinburgh removed a line of instruction to the are also features of what is no doubt the old progressivism voter at the top of the ballot paper but failed to consult of which the Deputy Prime Minister and his small band others prior to making that decision. of followers were supporters prior to the general election. Why are the UK government not considering, as the current proposal from the Scottish Government does, Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I the hon. putting the Interim Electoral Management Board on a Gentleman’s attention to what happened when his party statutory footing, despite the fact that it is now the main was in power. At the very last minute, just two months source of professional advice and co-ordination for all before the election, we had an order like this one that elections held in Scotland? Do the UK Government totally reorganised the ballot paper so that there were believe that there should be two separate electoral two columns on it. A complete mess was made of management boards in Scotland or that it makes sense things, and the Labour Government were responsible for such a board to be formed but not deal with either for the biggest election fiasco ever in the history of this UK or EU elections? What arrangements will the UK country. Government establish to co-ordinate returning officers and chief returning officers for the 2011 elections, and Tom Greatrex: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for subsequent UK and EU elections? for his excitable intervention. I am sure that he, in common with many other Liberal Democrat Members, If the Scottish Government proceed to make the was at the last election and previously a great fan of IEMB a statutory body for local and Scottish Parliament pre-legislative scrutiny and consultation, although I elections, what do the UK Government envisage will be note that he now seems to be less enamoured. the relationship with it if other elections are held on Although we are considering this statutory instrument same date and if the Minister’s much-vaunted consultation for the first time this evening, it is referred to, and on what happens in 2015 does not end up in any result? already amended by, the Parliamentary Voting System Who will be responsible for what? How are we going to and Constituencies Bill, which has completed its Commons achieve consistency in rulings and implementation of stages and is now being scrutinised in another place. arrangements? The Bill—which, as I have said, refers to this statutory Why is this statutory instrument following the instrument—will permit the Scottish Parliament elections Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, to coincide with the date of a referendum on AV, rather than preceding it? Surely this statutory instrument something which just about everybody other than members should have been presented to Parliament before the of the Government think is a bad idea. As the Minister Bill was introduced—there has been sufficient time for noted in the latter part of his remarks, even the esteemed that following the general election. Will the Minister tell Ron Gould expressed his doubts on that matter. So the us on how many occasions a Bill that includes reference Commons has considered the Parliamentary Voting to a particular statutory instrument has completed its System and Constituencies Bill prior to the statutory stages in the Commons prior to that statutory instrument instrument to which it refers having been approved by being approved by this House? Does he not agree that the House of Commons. That is not only completely this sets a dangerous precedent and attacks the ability illogical, but it is contrary to standard parliamentary of this House to scrutinise legislation properly? practice and represents a worrying precedent. The Minister Why is this statutory instrument coming to the House was careful not to seek to explain it, perhaps because he less than six months prior to the Scottish Parliament is embarrassed at such a blatant political fix. Perhaps he elections, despite the Minister’s acknowledged acceptance will explain it in more detail in his later remarks. I am of the Gould recommendation that the rules should not an experienced Member or an expert on parliamentary now be not merely published, but in place? Why are the process by any manner of means, but if this is a measure coalition Government continuing with a joint ballot on of the tactics used, it leads me to wonder how we are 5 May 2011 when evidence and expert feedback suggests expected to undertake our role in scrutinising the Executive that the amount of spoiled papers will be higher? Surely properly. that mirrors the problem identified in 2007 that multiple The Executive have made much of their “respect ballot forms can confuse, particularly those who are agenda” towards the devolved Administrations and frail, those who have learning difficulties or those for Assemblies, so why have the Minister and his Secretary whom English is not their first language. What testing 391 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 392 has occurred and what methodology did it use? If the On schedule 5, in what circumstances does he envisage joint ballot is to be held on 5 May 2011, can the a combination of Scottish Parliament and local government Minister clarify how the ballot papers will be set out? polls? Will he consider, given the Gould recommendation, Will they be on separate ballots? If so, will they be on that that is likely to occur only when there is a local separate coloured ballots that have been tested and are government by-election? What provisions will he put in acceptable for people with eye conditions? What testing place should a council by-election take place on the will take place? Have all the proposed ballot papers same day as a Scottish Parliament election and an AV been tested by the Electoral Commission? Have any referendum? I would be grateful if the Minister could discussions taken place with the Interim Electoral respond to those specific questions. Management Board in Scotland about the dual poll? What concerns did it raise? 8.2 pm This statutory instrument rectifies the inadvertent problems in the previous election rules that prevented a Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) candidate from being able to run as a candidate with a (SNP): I have been slightly distracted by a decoy from descriptor for two registered parties and use a registered the Government Whips, but we in the Hebrides can symbol of one of those parties. I declare an interest as a forgive such decoy activities from Orkney and Shetland. Labour and Co-operative Member of Parliament. Perhaps I am no lawyer—perhaps a reasonable crofter, but in future elections those on the Government Benches certainly no lawyer—but as it stands we feel that there may stand as combined party candidates. I therefore are serious issues with the order. As the SNP’s lawyer ask the Minister when that situation will be rectified for put it: future UK elections as it has been for the Scottish “This order is a perfect example, of how NOT to write legislation.” Parliament elections. We have found no fewer than 27 individual problems On prisoner voting rights, will the Minister clarify with the drafting of the order. Some have been reported when the Government intend to amend the franchise to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which and whether that will occur before the 2011 Scottish has accepted four of them. I shall not, for the benefit of Parliament elections? In their explanatory notes, the the House, go through all 27 today. However, I shall Government contend that they do not need to qualify give an overview of what has happened over the past their statement on the Human Rights Act 1998 because months in relation to our Scottish elections. they do not consider the Scottish Parliament to be a legislature for the purposes of article 3 of the first Let me start by reiterating the fact that our Scottish protocol. Specifically, they mention the Toner case in elections should not be run from Westminster. Our regard to the Northern Ireland Assembly, in which a elections are a unique part of Scottish democracy and, ruling has been made. Does the Minister not accept that frankly, the way in which the legislation for our elections the legislative competence and power of the Scottish has been treated is nothing less than shocking. It gives Parliament is considerably greater than those of the me some delight—and perhaps a bit of schadenfreude—to Northern Ireland Assembly, and accordingly will he think that the referendum that was going to eclipse our clarify further why the Government have now determined elections has now been eclipsed by a certain royal that the ruling will apply in Scotland? Why have the wedding. We wish them good luck and thank them for Government not adopted a precautionary approach the bank holiday that is coming our way. and what estimate have they made that their interpretation will be subject to legal challenge? David Mundell: May I seek the hon. Gentleman’s clarification on which referendum he means? I had Thomas Docherty: Given that the Scottish National understood that there was to be a referendum in Scotland, party failed to consult this place or the other parties instigated by the Scottish Government, that was to when it took away the tax varying powers, does my hon. eclipse all other electoral activity in Scotland. Friend share my concern that Scotland perhaps does not have a proper Parliament any more thanks to the Mr MacNeil: The SNP would have treated the Scottish SNP? people with more courtesy than the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, who have treated them with disdain Tom Greatrex: I am grateful as ever for the erudite by parking their tanks on the lawn of the date of the intervention of my hon. Friend. Given that other matters Scottish election—the first Thursday in May in 2011, a are being discussed today in Edinburgh, perhaps we will date that had been scheduled for many years. all be able to reflect on those discussions in the fullness of time. This Government have ignored the strongest point of If reforms in prisoner voting rights are not implemented the Gould report into the 2007 Scottish election, which before May 2011, does the Minister consider that there stated that, among other things, there should be a will be further legal challenges on the alternative vote six-month period between the statutory instrument coming referendum and, if so, are the Government qualifying into force and polling day. We are already within the their Human Rights Act statement as regards that poll? six-month period for the Scottish parliamentary elections and are thereby in violation of the strongest There are errors in schedule 2 of the printed draft recommendation in the report. Why do we need six order. Parts 2 to 7 are, from page 64 onwards, erroneously months? The report states: referred to as parts 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11. As the Minister has mentioned, five additional drafting errors were “Throughout this report, we have pointed to problems that have arisen because the passing of electoral legislation has been noted by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. unduly delayed. To avoid these problems, we would recommend a He has clarified those errors. Will he tell us what steps practice found in the electoral laws in other countries. These laws will be taken to provide corrected information and the provide that electoral legislation cannot be applied to any election final order to those who will have to implement it? held within six months of the new provision coming into force.” 393 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 394

[Mr MacNeil] 100%—of people will understand these ballot papers, just as I cannot assume that the hon. Member for Even without the report, that is surely common sense. Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) would understand me if I We have international practice and the Government are started speaking in Gaelic. It might make sense to me, indeed fond of citing international examples. It is beyond but countless others, including the hon. Gentleman, me how they can fail to note that other countries use the might be left in the dark. six-month electoral law. When electoral legislation is This is not the first time that the Scotland Office will rushed through at the last minute it is the voters who have heard our concerns. [Interruption.] The hon. suffer. Gentleman asks me to translate—he probably assumes I want to discuss the new ballot papers, which do not that I am speaking in Gaelic already. [Interruption.] It adhere to Electoral Commission recommendations and is time he learned some. have not been properly user-tested. Forms J and K on the order do not exactly correspond to the form on Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. This is not a private page 20 of the Electoral Commission report, “Making conversation between the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan your mark”, which was directed at Government policy an Iar (Mr MacNeil) and the Whip. If the hon. Gentleman makers. The Scotland Office says that it has used that addressed the Chamber it would help us all. information in drafting the forms in the statutory Mr MacNeil: I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. instrument, but the form on page 20 of the report is The hon. Gentleman tempts me unduly. plainly far superior to what the Government have offered. Since May, we have had difficulty in getting copies of Specifically, I am concerned about the spacing of the the order. When we did so in June, they were lacking in lines separating candidates and parties, which do not detail, specifically the previously mentioned ballot forms. extend over the page. Also, the spacing of the words We were told we would receive a near final copy of the and emblems are not closely matched to the box. Those draft order by the end of June, but we saw nothing until points might seem trivial, but if only 5% of voters make the order was laid before the House on 25 October—the an error we have a serious problem, as we discovered in third day of the Committee on the Parliamentary Voting 2007. System and Constituencies Bill. The average voter is, perhaps, too busy with shopping, Of the 27 issues we have with the drafting of the picking up the kids and the stresses of work to make order, I shall, as I said, highlight but a few. The heading absolutely sure that they are complying with what the for part 2 seems to have been lifted from the Representation Government intended. People are not going to have of the People Act 1983. It is one thing to lift a title when rulers ready to discern which line applies to which it has something to do with the order, but when—as in candidate and party. Surely, it is the job of this place, this case—the title has little or nothing at all to do with for now, to make such things as easy as possible for the our elections, copying it from the Act misses the fact voter and to remove potential bear traps. that the order contains no provisions on the franchise. There is no separate Scottish parliamentary election Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): My hon. Friend makes franchise; the franchise for voting at an election to the a good point about the lining up of candidates and Scottish Parliament is in section 11 of the Scotland party affiliations. Does he recall that in the disputed Act 1998. Nothing in the order can add anything to American election of 2004, with the famous hanging those provisions, or take anything away from them, chads in Florida, one problem was the design of the given the extent of the order-making power under ballot paper on which the candidates did not line up section 12(1) of the Scotland Act. The franchise is with the designations? contained in primary legislation enacted by the UK Parliament rather than in an Act of the Scottish Parliament Mr MacNeil: To be absolutely honest, I do not recall or other secondary legislation. that, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising it. The heading should reflect the actual content of Presumably, when those ballot papers were being designed part 2, not the legislation it happens to have been someone thought that would not be an issue but lo and adapted from. In this context, the “Oxford English behold it did become an issue in Florida and other Dictionary” defines “franchise” as: areas. “The right or privilege of voting in public elections—especially The problems I am highlighting could have been for members of a legislative body.” avoided if the Government had followed the Electoral Provisions on the electoral register relate simply to the Commission’s suggestion of user-testing the new ballot mechanisms for the exercise of the right, not to the right papers. That has already been mentioned. As far as we itself. can tell, the Government have not made any attempt to Under article 43, the translation of the new limits for get the new ballot paper checked. Even the ballot Westminster elections could lead to unforeseen campaign paper in the ill-fated 2007 election was user-tested by at finance consequences. We note that if the Parliamentary least 100 people. That number was small, given what Voting System and Constituencies Bill becomes law, happened, but better than none and better than what is there will be a combined ballot in May 2011. As highlighted happening now. by the Channel 4 News and Bureau of Investigative Without independent evaluation, we cannot be sure Journalism inquiry into certain expenses incurred in the that the ballot paper will be easily understood and will 2010 general election, the attribution of expenses between not lead to confusion. In addition, we will, or could, different electoral events can be subject to a number of have an AV referendum on the same day using a slightly interpretations. That opens up the possibility that the different ballot paper and a different design altogether. expenses limit attributable to the referendum could be As none of the ballot papers have been tested independently, used to circumvent the limitation of election expenses we cannot assume that the vast majority—towards at both candidate and party level—perhaps a loophole. 395 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 396

It has been noted that in the event of a combined of those who had developed knowledge and practice in election, with the main political parties in Scotland all elections. That lack of consultation has led to weaknesses making the necessary declarations to become permitted in the order. participants, the Conservative party may be able to Even though the draft order was laid before the spend £5 million, the Labour and Liberal Democrat House on 25 October, it has not become law. Even parties £4 million and the SNP £500,000. It is entirely though the Electoral Commission considers that the possible that the PVSC Bill will not have received Royal combination polls are on track, it still says that Assent before 5 January 2011, which marks the start of “delivering well-run polls on 5 May will be a major challenge”. the regulated periods for the Scottish Parliament elections. Yes, we received a copy of the draft order ahead of time, If that is the case, referendum expenditure at that point but it was lacking in the things that were most important will be unregulated, as the referendum period under the and was, therefore, only partly helpful. Bill commences on Royal Assent. As I have said, the SI could create a massive financial loophole for campaign Finally, we understand that this is an affirmative spending. order and cannot be amended on the Floor of the House. That is indeed a problem for if we could, I In article 88 of the draft order, it seems that the would be more than happy to amend the instrument Scottish Parliament Corporate Body was not consulted and vote for it, but since it is a take-it-or-leave-it situation, regarding the date of Dissolution. In 2002, when changes I am afraid I might have to leave it. being made to the 1999 order reduced the Dissolution period for the Scottish Parliament from 25 days to 21 days, that process was subject to consultation and, 8.17 pm indeed, discussion. We are having trouble finding any Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- evidence of the same happening with this draft order. op): I shall be brief as I know that some of my colleagues As we all know, article 88 changes the number of hope to get into the debate. At the start of it, we could working days in the Parliament. It is my hope that have been forgiven for wondering why a document that someone from the Scotland Office was in close contact should be an uncontroversial order dealing with the with the Scottish Government or Parliament. Can we rules relating to elections caused so much grief and so have some confirmation that agreement was sought many exchanges across the Chamber. Amid the political from the Scottish Parliament or the Government for the knockabout that went on, there is a serious point about change? the manner, the timing and the way in which the order The entire process has been devoid of political party has been brought before the House, which causes serious consultation, which, believe it or not, is important. Our concerns about parliamentary process. parties, across the House and the devolved legislatures, Mr Reid: The hon. Lady has obviously studied the have the experience and knowledge to help draft election order. Can she tell us what changes to the order she legislation. Would the Government not consult the would like to see? construction industry on legislation related to it? Why then have we had such a hard time in getting information Cathy Jamieson: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will and consultation on this particular order? allow me to make some progress. It is important to One might wonder why we need to be consulted. recognise that the order contained some drafting deficiencies, Surely the lack of political parties in the elections which the Minister was good enough to highlight. The process would be welcome. However, the Gould report reason that there has been so much discussion of the order stated: tonight is that there is unfinished business from some of “Electoral legislation—especially in a fragmented legislative the other debates that have gone on, particularly about the environment—is nuanced and dense. Understanding is usually Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. built up through years of experience ‘on the ground’, whether as Government Members may shake their heads, but an administrator or a party activist. This understanding is difficult to develop on a purely intellectual level, which is why practitioner the issue concerns not only the Members present this input is vital.” evening. It is a serious matter for the Members of the Scottish Parliament who voted they way they did because The Government have rushed through Parliament all they did not believe that it was right to have the referendum aspects of the legislation relating to elections in Scotland. and the Scottish Parliament election on the same day. This has lead to the drastic addition of critical amendments That was made very clear by the Scottish Parliament’s on the hoof. We have not been able to study these issues Local Government and Communities Committee, properly, and we can expect that more amendments will including, as I understand it, by a member of the same be pushed through the House of Lords before the party as the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) process is over. who also believes that it was the wrong decision. The problem is that such an approach has left the Mr Reid: I have been listening to the hon. Gentleman’s people of Scotland, particularly parliamentarians in speech and I am trying to work out what he finds wrong Scotland, feeling that no matter what they say or do, with the order. All I can deduce is that a line on the their votes and views do not count in this place. That is ballot paper is not long enough and that he finds the a particular problem because the Government initially heading of part 2 incorrect. Is there anything of substance set out to talk about and highlight the new respect that he finds wrong with the order? agenda. That simply has not come to pass, and it has been highlighted once again by the delay in bringing Mr MacNeil: Usually I welcome interventions. I am what should have been a relatively uncontroversial order reluctant to slam the hon. Gentleman, but if he had to this Chamber for debate. Perhaps an expert on the listened to what I was saying 30 seconds ago, he would constitution and the workings of the House will tell me know that I was speaking about the lack of consultation I am wrong, but I find it odd that we should have discussed 397 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 398

[Cathy Jamieson] Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue and, like him, look forward to the the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Minister emphasising which parts of the report he Bill, which refers to the order, in advance of the order agreed with then and still agrees with today. I am sure itself. That seems highly unusual, and I hope that the that, unlike certain Liberal Democrats, he is sticking to Minister refers to that in his winding-up comments. his guns on these matters. People keep raising concerns about holding the There are some genuine and serious concerns about referendum and Scottish Parliament elections on the the logistics of combining the polls, and having had a same day, because we have bitter experience of things chance to work through the rather weighty 260 pages of going badly wrong. We understand that mistakes were the order, I fear that some of those concerns have not made last time, and we want to ensure that they do not been resolved adequately. In the brief time that I have, I happen again, so I find it difficult to listen to the shall try to touch on a couple of them. I should add that Minister selectively quoting Mr Ron Gould. If we are my local Liberal Democrat MSP—or rather my current serious about ensuring that we do not repeat the same one until May, when he loses—does not even agree with problems, we should take account of everything that what the Minister is doing. the Gould report says. The first of the three issues that I should like to cover On several occasions I have pressed Ministers to tell is postal votes. If you have had a chance to look at the me whether they will listen to the views of the Scottish report, Madam Deputy Speaker, you will recall the Parliament. I have heard warm words but seen absolutely problems that we had in 2007 with local authorities no action. issuing postal votes on time. Of course, the point of a postal vote is that it is for somebody who cannot make Margaret Curran: The Minister referred to last week’s it along on the day. Some people did not get their postal debate in the Scottish Parliament and my participation votes landing on their doormats until the Monday or in it. I said that no plausible explanation had been Tuesday of the week of the election. I am sure that the given as to why the Scottish Parliament had not been House will agree that that is most unsatisfactory. I consulted on the process. Given that the Parliament would be grateful if the Minister would further outline passed the relevant motion by a two-thirds majority exactly what he proposes to do to ensure that that situation and the Minister knows the importance of its view, does does not happen again given that, on this occasion, my hon. Friend agree that the Government should effectively double the number of forms will be sent out. recognise its expressed will? The second issue relates to polling stations and counting Cathy Jamieson: I absolutely understand my hon. stations. The returning officers have made clear in their Friend’s position, and she is absolutely right. I hope that submissions to the Scottish Affairs Committee, and in closing I can give the Minister one final opportunity elsewhere, their concerns that counting stations will not to recognise the will of the Scottish Parliament and state be big enough to take all the ballot boxes that are that he not only hears it, but will do something about it. required and to do all the sorting and sifting that will be necessary. Indeed, additional recompense will be required 8.22 pm because they will need to keep the counting stations Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): open not only through the Thursday night but throughout I have taken part in all our constitutional debates on the Friday and perhaps into Saturday. In one or two locations, Floor of the House, and I yet again welcome to his owing to well-observed religious views, the count for the place the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the referendum might take place the following week. There hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who has is also the serious issue of how Royal Mail will be able taken a very keen interest in these matters. I am glad to cope, because not only the constituency lists but the that he takes an interest in what, in theory, should be a material for the yes and no campaigns in the referendums Scottish-only affair, but it is disappointing that, yet will be going out. again, the Deputy Prime Minister has not deigned to Finally, despite the warm words from the Parliamentary grace us with his presence. Nor, indeed, has the Secretary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Forest of State for Scotland, so I can only wish him a speedy of Dean (Mr Harper), we still have not received absolute recovery, because I cannot think of any other reason clarification of how much money Scottish local authorities why he would not want to take part in this debate. will receive to help to pay for all the issues that I have When the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland outlined. Perhaps he could lean over and explain to the responds, I trust he will confirm that, unlike the Deputy Under-Secretary what those figures are. It is disappointing Prime Minister, he has actually read the Gould report. that having eventually dragged this report out of the Hon. Members will recall that, when the Deputy Prime Government, they did not follow normal practice and Minister did on one occasion deign to turn up, he was let us scrutinise it before we debated the final stages of forced to admit—[Interruption.] The Minister might the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies have read the report of the report, as the Deputy Prime Bill on the Floor of the House. I hope that the Under- Minister admitted to doing. The Gould report raises Secretary can outline exactly how much compensation some serious concerns, but I do not wish to labour the will be given to Scottish local authorities to run this points that my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen ill-conceived referendum on the same day as the Scottish and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) made so eloquently. elections. Mr MacNeil: My memory could be defective, but I somehow feel that in a previous life, in another role in 8.27 pm this House, the Minister used to emphasise and put Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): There are great weight on parts, if not all, of the Gould report. many issues of substance in the order. We want to be Perhaps he will clarify that later on. very co-operative with the Government, as has happened 399 Constitutional Law24 NOVEMBER 2010 Constitutional Law 400 in our relationships with Governments in the past when ask the coalition Government finally to engage with the we have had to ensure that we had successful Scottish Scottish Parliament on matters as important as the Parliament elections. As my hon. Friend the Member elections to that Parliament. for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) said, the problem is that we have got off to a very bad start, 8.30 pm particularly regarding the Parliamentary Voting System David Mundell: I will respond to as many points and Constituencies Bill, the problems with which have related to the order as I can in the time available to me, already been indicated. but if some matters are not covered, I undertake to I have to tell the Government that the determined write to the Members in question. To allow the fullest view in Scotland is that the Government are showing possible debate, I thought it right to take a large number something of a pattern in their attitude to the Scottish of interventions because the order and the other matters parliamentary elections, and perhaps in their attitude to raised are important to people in Scotland. Scotland. I am disappointed about that given that I I accept the sincerity of the comments of the hon. know the Under-Secretary very well and have, I think, Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), but I do worked with him reasonably constructively in the past. I not accept that it shows disdain for the Scottish Parliament am disappointed by his attitude to last week’s Scottish not to agree with a conclusion that it reaches in a Parliament debate, of which he seemed so disdainful debate. I respect its right to have that debate, although and dismissive. That was not his attitude in the past, frankly I am extremely surprised that it took three and it is beginning to be symptomatic of this Government’s months for it to take place if the issue was of such a attitude to the Scottish Parliament, where substantial pressing nature for the public in Scotland. Some valuable points were raised in that debate. contributions were made in it, but they reflected The core of this argument is that, as been acknowledged, contributions made when the Parliamentary Voting System an enormous mistake was made in the elections of and Constituencies Bill was debated in this House. 2007. Essentially, people believed that the arrangements Nothing new was added to lead the Government to any for the elections were devised to suit the politicians, not view other than that we should hold the referendum on the voters. I say in all sincerity that we are in danger of 5 May. Of course, we commit to working with the making that mistake again. This is illustrative of the Scottish Government, Scottish political parties and the attitude to the Scottish Parliament debate, where we Scottish Parliament to ensure that the election and were trying to point out that there are issues of substance. referendum on that day are a success. The best way to resolve them is through dialogue and constructive engagement. The fact that the coalition Margaret Curran: May I ask why the Minister did not Government made this decision without even cursory consult the Scottish Parliament about the proposal? reference to the Scottish Parliament or the elected Does he regard that as a breach of the respect agenda? Government of Scotland raises serious and continuing questions about their approach. That undermines our David Mundell: I do not accept that it was a breach of confidence in the Government’s ability to resolve the the mutual respect agenda that this Government are problem. pursuing. It was right that a provision of such significance be brought to this House first. As soon as it had been Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Lady give way? announced to this House, the Scotland Office was in contact with the Scottish Government and parties in Margaret Curran: I am very short of time, so I do not the Scottish Parliament, and it has maintained that think I can. dialogue. As I indicated earlier, we accept that the coincidence Mr MacNeil: Aye, you can. of the 2015 elections is a significant issue to consider. That is why, earlier in the summer, the Secretary of State wrote to parties and authorities in Scotland to Margaret Curran: Very briefly—I know what you’re acknowledge that fact, and why the Parliamentary Secretary, like. Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), indicated that there would be a Mr MacNeil: I am grateful. Given the problem that consultation on the matter. I look forward to hearing the hon. Lady is highlighting, does she not feel that that the views of the Scottish Labour party and the other power should reside with the Scottish Parliament, not parties in the Scottish Parliament as part of that here? consultation. We are committed to our agenda of mutual respect, and that is highlighted no better than in the Bill Margaret Curran: I know that that has been under that we will shortly bring forward to enhance greatly the discussion for some time, and I think the hon. Gentleman powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament. knows our views on that. However, I wish to stick to the The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife core argument. (Thomas Docherty) made a number of points about the I make a plea to the Government, who have a real cost of the count. We have been quite clear that opportunity. If they are prepared to engage with key the additional costs of the referendum will be met by parties and listen to the different perspectives, perhaps the UK Government. we can come to a shared resolution. Their intransigent We are short of time. The regulations that are contained attitude of asserting rather than engaging in argument in the order will allow additional time for consideration is leading to enormous difficulty, which will be confirmed of postal voting issues. I have confidence that the Royal next year. I plead with the Minister to try to resolve the Mail in Scotland will be able to cope with all the issues problem rather than just weep at it when it occurs, and I that have been raised. 401 Constitutional Law 24 NOVEMBER 2010 402

[David Mundell] Business without Debate The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) raised a number of points, but I share the DELEGATED LEGISLATION view of the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing that it was not clear where they were heading. I do not Order 118(6)), know whether we were being criticised for being too rushed or for being too slow. CONSTITUTIONAL LAW The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West That the draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative (Tom Greatrex) showed that he had learned shamelessness Competence) (Amendment of Schedule 7 to the Government of from the master, the right hon. Member for East Wales Act 2006) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), in suggesting that his party 21 October, be approved.—(Philip Dunne.) would have brought forward this order quicker. It is not Question agreed to. the case; we have kept to as tight a timetable as we can and we have kept the rationale of the previous Government. Many of the issues he raised related to the Parliamentary NORTHERN IRELAND GRAND COMMITTEE Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which is currently Ordered, being dealt with in another place, and, to an extent, the That— Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill. (1) the matter of the implications for Northern Ireland of the Government’s Comprehensive Spending Review be referred to The other evening I heard his other mentor, the noble the Northern Ireland Grand Committee; Lord McAvoy, making a passionate speech, highlighting (2) the Committee shall meet at Westminster on Tuesday many of the same issues. He raised some specific points, 7 December at 4.30 pm; and which I will respond to in writing. (3) at that sitting— Question put. (a) the Committee shall consider the matter referred to it under paragraph (1) above; and The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the (b) the Chairman shall interrupt proceedings not later than Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until two and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on Wednesday 1 December (Standing Order No.41A). the matter referred to the Committee—(Philip Dunne) 403 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Bookmakers and Planning 404 (Haringey) Bookmakers and Planning (Haringey) the Gambling Act 2005, does he feel remorse that he lacked the foresight to see this situation coming down Motion made and Question proposed, That this the road, and that he rejected representations made in House do now adjourn.—(Philip Dunne.) this House on precisely that issue? 8.38 pm Mr Lammy: I am coming to that, but I am happy to Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I am pleased to acknowledge that there were mistakes in the 2005 Act. have secured this Adjournment debate on planning and When the hon. Gentleman reads the Hansard reports of betting shops in Haringey and somewhat relieved that it debates on that measure, he will find virtually no discussion has coincided with the interval in the Tottenham-Werder of bookmakers. As he might remember, although he Bremen match in which Tottenham is up 2-0, so I will was not a Member of the House at the time, the debate speak very quickly. was predominantly about super-casinos. That is precisely Across the country, we are seeing some of the institutions why the problems I am talking about came in through that form the fabric of our local communities being the back door. That situation undermines the sustainability taken over by big business. Pubs, community centres, of high streets, limits the diversity of footfall and acts as independent stores and post offices are being replaced a deterrent to any prospective business that is looking to by supermarket chain stores, chain bookmakers and invest in our area. We sacrifice the diversity and vibrancy pay-day loan shops. The fluidity of the use classes of of a high street by allowing an increasing number of our high street shops currently fails to provide adequate shop fronts to be occupied by the same, narrow-appealing protection for iconic premises and essential amenities, trade. and the people of my constituency and of Haringey as a Outside Wood Green tube station, there are five whole are paying the price. shops within 150 metres, three with the same operator. Cultural landmarks that have been anchored in our Along Green lanes there are nine gambling premises communities for decades are evaporating and betting within 300 metres. As I said, this debate is about Haringey, shops are opening in their place. In the past three years, but the problem is broader. There are 10 betting shops Green lanes—the road that bisects the borough—has within 300 meters of Ealing Broadway tube station. In seen no fewer than three banks and one post office Chinatown in Westminster, not far from here, there are converted into bookmakers. more than 60 gambling premises within a five-minute The latest application for a betting shop on Tottenham walk of the pagoda. That is unacceptable. I joined the High road—the 10th along that stretch that stretch of Chinese community just two weeks ago to campaign road—would mean a betting shop replacing one of the against the law that has allowed that to happen. Chinese most famous independent music shops in the north owners of premises and shopkeepers are being driven London area. This debate is about Haringey, but it is out of the area. Even in Guildford, which is very worth mentioning that the old Hackney town hall, different to my constituency, six gaming centres have which was built in 1802, is now a bookmaker’s, as is the packed into the same warehouse building. Clustering is iconic Railway Tavern opposite. That is not to say that I so evident that even the industry lobby group, the am against gambling—far from it. Bookmakers certainly Association of British Bookmakers, conceded in a recent have a place on our high street, but there is such a thing parliamentary briefing that as having too many. “in areas of high population density, shops have clustered around The consequences are not simply a change in lifestyle particular high street locations.” and a longer walk to the bank or the post office, Indeed, in an evidence session to the scrutiny committee although those need to be taken into account, but a of Haringey council, betting shop operators outlined vastly different neighbourhood. In my view, it sends the why clustering is inevitable where there is an unfettered wrong message in the midst of an economic downturn if market, as is currently the case. Operators poach each the people who are in need of financial advice find a other’s development staff, and knowledge about the virtual roulette wheel where they once could have received profitable locations is shared throughout the industry. advice on saving. My constituency has 39 bookmakers Where a successful betting shop exists, rivals congregate but no book shops. What message does that send about nearby to share the profits. Clustering of betting shops what we value in our community? is inevitable when regulation is as loose as it is. Community services and iconic businesses need It is also worth recognising what bookmakers have protection if we are to achieve vibrant and sustainable become over the past few years. What they offer is a far high streets. I fully support the Protection of Local cry from the romantic vision of placing a small bet on Services (Planning) Bill, which is promoted by the hon. the grand national. The main trade for bookmakers is Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams), because through fixed-odds betting terminals, which are gaming it would give councils precisely that power. In Haringey, machines that allow people to play casino games with the failure of planning laws has meant more than casino stakes, but at three times the speed. They are simply the loss of essential local amenities; planning highly addictive, allowing users to place stakes of £100 a laws have allowed betting shops to cluster and dominate time, and are known as the crack cocaine of betting for an entire commercial area. That undermines the that reason. Such machines are what make betting sustainability of high streets and limits the diversity of shops profitable, and the limit of four per shop is what footfall. makes further betting premises viable. Betting shops increasingly resemble casinos, except that they do not Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I require the same levels of regulation. Are we comfortable congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing this with the fact that a limitless number of betting shops important debate. His diagnosis of the problem is absolutely can open up anywhere on our high streets? Are we right, but as a Minister in the Department that implemented comfortable that there are five such mini-casinos within 405 Bookmakers and Planning 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Bookmakers and Planning 406 (Haringey) (Haringey) [Mr Lammy] we did not have the number and clustering of betting shops that we have now. Clearly there is a problem, and 150 metres of the gates of John Loughborough secondary we must deal with it. school, particularly given the industry’s poor record on Current law—the Town and Country Planning (Use age verification? By allowing betting shops to proliferate Classes) Order 1987—groups betting shops in the A2 and cluster, we risk normalising a form of gambling category alongside banks, credit unions and estate agents. that is dangerously addictive and socially destructive. A betting shop may open in any premises previously In Haringey, 2,000 residents have signed petitions occupied by any of these without the need for planning against further betting shops. The local traders association permission. Do we really believe that betting shops have has come out against further such shops opening, and the same economic impact as banks and credit unions? tackling clustering receives cross-party support from Do they really cater to the same broad range of customers? local councillors. The issue is constantly brought up at Do they both attract similar levels of anti-social behaviour? local area assemblies, and people such as Ian Sygrave Yes, they share the characteristics of being low-stock, and Peter Lorimer have mounted campaigns to marshal high-turnover businesses, but do we really believe that a the energy of local residents. Campaign groups such as social enterprise service office can pay the same levels of Find Your Voice have held rallies outside proposed sites rent as a multinational bookmaking company? in Tottenham, and the people of Harringay online, the Even that is not the full story. Current planning law online community forum for those around the Green allows betting shops to open in restaurants and cafés lanes area, have documented the changes to their local under class use A3, in drinking establishments under community through photos and maps. However, that A4 and takeaways under A5, without planning permission. consensus and energy cannot translate into action because More than 45% of shop frontage in the borough is open the people of Haringey find themselves powerless. to betting shops to move into without planning permission The clustering of betting shops in Haringey is a being required. consequence of poor licensing legislation. The debate Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Will the right hon. Gentleman on the Gambling Act 2005 concerned itself too much give way? with super-casinos and their licensing, but neglected to consider the wider impact of removing demand tests for Mr Lammy: I will not give way. I do not want my new betting shops. We are left with a licensing framework constituency to turn into the sort of place that can be that requires licensing authorities to “aim to permit”, seen in some urban areas of the United States, with a yet prevents residents, councillors or interested parties predominance of liquor shops polluting the area and from opposing a premise licence on the basis of how causing real problems where there is genuine need. I many exist already and gives no scope for considering raise this issue not from a partisan position but openly the cumulative impact of additional premises. It is a admitting that mistakes were made in relaxing the rules licensing framework that burdens councils with legal and that there has been a lack of scrutiny here and in costs of up to £10,000 if their rejection of a licence is the other place. Given the limitations of the licensing overturned on appeal to a magistrates court, and creates framework, the aim to permit, the inability to consider an active disincentive for councils to oppose licences. the cumulative impact and the onus on planning to However flawed the licensing system may be, those prevent clustering and saturation occurring, it is clear flaws manifest themselves in planning. That is certainly that the current A2 classification does not provide how the Government have advised Haringey council to councils and residents with the powers they need to handle the matter: the Minister’s colleague, the Secretary address these concerns. of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, advised Will the Minister consider a revision of the classification Haringey to pursue an article 4 direction. However, of betting shops from A2 to sui generis, a category unto council officials estimate that such a plan could take itself. After all, the diversity of footfall that they attract years to research and implement, and the council could is unique. Their economic impact in an area is wholly be liable to compensate the businesses affected. That different from that of almost any other establishment, would take up resources and money—resources and particularly those in the A2 class. A sui generis planning money that are obviously scarce at a time of considerable category for betting shops would not be revolutionary. cuts to local authority budgets. I therefore urge the Casinos and amusement arcades, which have similar Minister and his colleagues to make real changes to characteristics, are classed as such. Being able to consider planning laws and give local residents and local councils each planning application in kind would enable councils the power that they need to tackle clustering. and residents to consider the cumulative impact of an additional betting shop, and they could manage the proportion of frontage occupied by them. Stephen Gilbert: The right hon. Gentleman is probably aware that I used to be a councillor in the London Tessa Munt: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? borough of Haringey, so I have an interest in the issue and the area. Is he aware that in 1997, 42% of planning Mr Lammy: I want to hear from the Minister, so I decisions were taken by local councillors, enabling them will not give way at this stage. to stand up for their communities? Ten years later, under Labour, that figure had fallen from 42 to 10%. Planning law does not exist to prevent gambling, but it should be able to manage it in the context of achieving a sustainable and diverse shopping area. I welcome the Mr Lammy: The hon. Gentleman chooses to use this Government’s instincts for localism, and I want the debate to make partisan points. I am saying that this is a concerns of the citizens of Haringey, Chinatown, Hackney, cross-party issue, and I am sorry that when he was on Guildford, Lewisham and countless other areas reflected Haringey council he did not see it as such. Back in 1997, in the decentralisation and localism Bill. 407 Bookmakers and Planning 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Bookmakers and Planning 408 (Haringey) (Haringey) Is it acceptable that the full force of local democracy talk about it. The debate has raised some important and Haringey’s civil society can make hardly a dent in issues about balancing sustainable development with the gambling industry’s ability to open new premises in community needs, and I am pleased to be able to the borough? That is the simple question for the Minister. respond. I hope that he will incorporate the proposals made by I shall deal first with the planning process. Reference the hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty to allow communities has been made to the planning and licensing regimes, to protect the local services they hold dear. Will he and it is worth remembering that, although there is an consider giving communities the power to manage the overlap between the two, they are separate and distinct businesses that communities hold less dear, and which regimes that, in some measure, fulfil different purposes. indeed threaten the identity and vibrancy of their area? The right hon. Gentleman was particularly concerned Will he allow neighbourhood plans to limit the percentage about problems that might arise in the planning process of shop frontage available to betting shops? where planning permission was not required to change the use of a building to another use. I will come on to Tessa Munt: I clearly have no connection with Haringey. that, but it might help if I first explain the context of My constituency is in rural Somerset and has coastal these issues. towns at Highbridge and Burnham-on-Sea. Burnham- on-Sea, in common with probably most town centres To achieve the aim of balanced and sustainable and high streets, suffers from a proliferation of betting communities, we need homes, jobs, leisure facilities and shops. On the coast, there are also a number of gaming places to shop, in locations where they can be accessed machine shops specifically dedicated to that kind of by all. That is why we focus new development and activity. Surely there must be a way—either in the activities in the cities, towns and villages in which we localism Bill or perhaps by local authorities arriving at live. However, we accept that tensions occasionally arise a definition of what they want—of allowing local authorities from locating different types of development and land to insist that these kinds of shops are situated at first-floor uses next to one another or where particular uses become level or above. That would get rid of the problem of concentrated. The right hon. Gentleman referred to people, especially young people, passing along a high those tensions, as did my hon. Friends the Members for street and seeing the enormous shop fronts which the St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) and for hon. Gentleman has complained about. If we put those Wells (Tessa Munt). It is therefore important to have a businesses on the first or second floor or above, they planning system that balances the need to allow business would need to find ways for people to access them to grow with protections for the community from negative under the terms of the Disability Discrimination Act impacts of development. We must also remember that 1995, but we would be left with only a shop doorway— we often have to deal with business uses that are controversial but also lawful, and a balance has to be Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I struck in those cases as well. The planning process seeks regret that this is becoming a speech rather than an to ensure that our communities get the right type of intervention. development, located in the right location, to maximise benefits for everyone and, as far as possible, prevent Mr Lammy: I have huge sympathy with the hon. negative impacts. Lady’s point, and I hope that we can form an alliance Against that background, let me move on to the across the House. She is absolutely right to draw attention subject of the debate—specifically, the problems that to young people, because the last survey was deeply can arise when planning permission is not needed because worrying as it showed the large number of young people the use classes order allows one type of property to be who found their way into those premises. Indeed, if she converted into another type without planning permission visits my constituency in the middle of the day and being required. I have to explain the background to the looks through the window of these places, she will see use classes order, the purpose of which is often young people playing on the machines there, which is misunderstood. The order was introduced to remove deeply worrying. unnecessary planning applications from the planning I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to system and to speed up that system. The use classes say. He is familiar with my constituency, and I hope he order is a concept that has been established for many will recognise the strength of feeling from all parties in years. It groups together uses that have similar land-use the House that the present legislative framework is not impacts and characteristics. It is limited in that sense. right and that people need better local determination Broader issues such as those to which the right hon. on the proliferation, clustering and dominance of these Gentleman referred may arise, but that is not what the premises on our high streets and in our town centres. use classes order is intended to deal with. Changes of use within a class are not considered to be development, so they do not require planning permission. 8.57 pm The relevant class for our discussion tonight is the A2 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for use class, which includes a range of different properties Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): I used in general terms for financial services, including congratulate the right hon. Member for Tottenham banks, betting shops and estate agents. One can argue (Mr Lammy) on securing this debate on planning law about how these things break down, but the fact remains and bookmakers in Haringey. I know that he has strong that these are distinct from the different use class that feelings about the issue; he has spoken to me about it on would include fast-food or retail shops. Of course, I the telephone and met the Minister of State, Department accept that two developments, even if characterised for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. together within the same use class, might not have Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), precisely the same operating characteristics—shops can who is responsible for decentralisation and planning, to have different opening and delivery times, for example. 409 Bookmakers and Planning 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Bookmakers and Planning 410 (Haringey) (Haringey) [Robert Neill] activity taking place. I assume that piers will not fall within the general conditions relating to high streets The planning system grants further flexibility by allowing and town centres to which the right hon. Member for some changes of use between classes to take place Tottenham (Mr Lammy) and I have referred. without the need for planning application. This applies where the impacts of the proposed use are considered to Robert Neill: I understand the hon. Lady’s point, and be less than those of the existing use. In this case, hot-food also the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for takeaways, pubs and restaurants can all be converted to St Austell and Newquay. We must accept that the planning the A2 financial services class without the requirement system is not intended to deal with all issues of social for planning application. One can see the logic in that contention to which value judgments apply. There is a the impact of a bank or a building society might be less separate licensing system which, to some degree, handles than that of takeaway—there may not be the same such matters as well, but the planning system, and in cooking smells, for example, and in this day and age I particular the use classes order, may not be the best suspect fewer people come out of the bank singing vehicle to deal with what is a legitimate issue of social cheerfully at closing time than out of a public house. debate: the worth or otherwise of certain legal activities. The impact is less, so no planning application is required. That is why I think there is a difficulty in the right hon. The key difference is that local authorities have the Gentleman’s proposition about a sui generis use class power to remove that bit of the freedom of movement—the order. I accept that some of his points have force, and I conversion to something that has a lesser impact. That accept that his concerns and those of his constituents is the article 4 direction to which the right hon. Gentleman are genuine. There are tensions in cases such as this, and referred. If we remove that article 4 direction, a planning the face of a high street can change if one particular use application is required. That can be done by the local comes to dominate. However, as I have said, we cannot planning authority if there are local concerns about expect the planning system to be capable of solving all such developments. That is why this option was available community issues. It is necessary to find a balance. and has been suggested in respect of the situation We have examined the position, and while I accept in Haringey. that in some cases difficulties can arise, I do not think it necessary to consider whether a national approach would Mr Lammy: Does the Minister accept that it is very be proportionate when there is no evidence to suggest costly to proceed through an article 4? The main point is that the proliferation of betting shops is a widespread that bookmakers should clearly not be in the A2 class problem that requires national legislation. There is also with banks. They should be in a separate class of their own. no evidence to suggest that banks are withdrawing from I suspect that the hon. Gentleman understands that high streets because of betting shops, although they because he concentrates his remarks on banks and estate may be doing so for other reasons. agents. Bookmakers are wholly different; surely they should be somewhere near to casinos and amusement Tessa Munt: I beg to differ, given the quantity of parks. casework with which I deal involving increasingly younger groups of people who have to search for help from the Robert Neill: Two or perhaps three points arise. I was citizens advice bureau and various Christian organisations interested in the right hon. Gentleman’s observation —I met representatives of one in Cheddar, in my that his local council thinks it would take years to constituency, on Saturday—because of disproportionate produce the policy for an article 4 direction. I can see amounts of debt that originated from gambling. nothing on the face of the system that should require Robert Neill: I am not suggesting that that is not an such a long period. Secondly, there is compensation. We issue, but it is necessary to establish whether the planning must have a rule that applies to all article 4 directions law or the licensing regime is appropriate. My colleagues because such a direction is—justifiably or otherwise—an in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have interference or at least a restriction on the proprietary expressed willingness to monitor the extent to which the rights of the owner of the property. It limits what the number and concentration of betting shops have changed owner can do with that property, which can affect its since the Gambling Act 2005 came into force, and to value, so it is reasonable and proportionate that there establish whether there is a causal link between undesirable should be compensation. We cannot say that that should social impacts and any proliferation. They will continue be any different for an article 4 direction that applies to to work with local authorities to that end. only one type of use as opposed to another. That would be neither just nor proportionate. Finally, a localism Bill will give local authorities more discretion in regard to the way in which they reflect A case can be made, but various people will have local need in the planning process. Before too long, we different value judgments about the social, moral, ethical will present proposals relating both to the Bill and to or economic worth of certain types of business uses. associated planning reforms. I do not suggest that that The use classes order, however, deals with land uses will automatically provide a silver bullet either, but we rather than making value judgments about certain types will keep these matters under review. of business uses. 9.8 pm Tessa Munt: On a pier, for example, there is often a House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order discrete area where people might expect to see such No. 9(7)). 411 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Deferred Divisions 412

Deferred Divisions Gyimah, Mr Sam Luff, Peter Halfon, Robert Lumley, Karen Hames, Duncan Macleod, Mary NORTHERN IRELAND Hammond, rh Mr Philip Main, Mrs Anne That the draft Local Elections (Northern Ireland) Order 2010, Hammond, Stephen Maude, rh Mr Francis which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved. Hancock, Matthew May, rh Mrs Theresa The House divided: Ayes 337, Noes 217. Hancock, Mr Mike Maynard, Paul Division No. 126] Harper, Mr Mark McCartney, Jason Harrington, Richard McCartney, Karl AYES Harris, Rebecca McIntosh, Miss Anne Hart, Simon McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Adams, Nigel Collins, Damian Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McPartland, Stephen Afriyie, Adam Colvile, Oliver Hayes, Mr John McVey, Esther Aldous, Peter Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Meale, Mr Alan Alexander, rh Danny Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Menzies, Mark Amess, Mr David Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Miller, Maria Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davey, Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon Mills, Nigel Baker, Norman Davies, David T. C. Hendry, Charles Milton, Anne Baker, Steve (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Moore, rh Michael Baldry, Tony Davies, Glyn Hermon, Lady Mordaunt, Penny Baldwin, Harriett de Bois, Nick Heyes, David Morgan, Nicky Barclay, Stephen Dinenage, Caroline Hinds, Damian Morris, Anne Marie Barker, Gregory Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollingbery, George Morris, David Baron, Mr John Dobbin, Jim Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, James Barwell, Gavin Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Holloway, Mr Adam Mosley, Stephen Bebb, Guto Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Hopkins, Kris Mowat, David Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Horwood, Martin Mulholland, Greg Bellingham, Mr Henry Dorries, Nadine Howarth, Mr Gerald Mundell, rh David Benyon, Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John Murray, Sheryll Beresford, Sir Paul Drax, Richard Hughes, Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Berry, Jake Duddridge, James Huhne, rh Chris Neill, Robert Bingham, Andrew Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunter, Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Binley, Mr Brian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Huppert, Dr Julian Newton, Sarah Birtwistle, Gordon Dunne, Mr Philip Hurd, Mr Nick Nokes, Caroline Blackman, Bob Ellis, Michael Jackson, Mr Stewart Norman, Jesse Blackwood, Nicola Ellison, Jane James, Margot Nuttall, Mr David Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Javid, Sajid Ollerenshaw, Eric Boles, Nick Elphicke, Charlie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Opperman, Guy Bone, Mr Peter Eustice, George Johnson, Gareth Osborne, rh Mr George Bottomley, Peter Evans, Graham Johnson, Joseph Ottaway, Richard Bradley, Karen Evans, Jonathan Jones, Andrew Paice, Mr James Brady, Mr Graham Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr David Parish, Neil Brake, Tom Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Patel, Priti Bray, Angie Fallon, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Pawsey, Mark Brazier, Mr Julian Field, Mr Mark Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Bridgen, Andrew Foster, Mr Don Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Percy, Andrew Brokenshire, James Fox,rhDrLiam Kirby, Simon Perry, Claire Brooke, Annette Francois, rh Mr Mark Knight, rh Mr Greg Phillips, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Freeman, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bruce, rh Malcolm Freer, Mike Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pincher, Christopher Buckland, Mr Robert Fullbrook, Lorraine Lamb, Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Burley, Mr Aidan Fuller, Richard Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Burnham, rh Andy Gale, Mr Roger Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Burns, Conor Garnier, Mr Edward Latham, Pauline Pugh, Dr John Burns, Mr Simon Gauke, Mr David Laws, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Burrowes, Mr David George, Andrew Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Mr John Burstow, Paul Gibb, Mr Nick Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Burt, Lorely Gilbert, Stephen Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Byles, Dan Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leech, Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Cairns, Alun Glen, John Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Campbell, Mr Gregory Goldsmith, Zac Leslie, Charlotte Reid, Mr Alan Carmichael, Mr Alistair Goodwill, Mr Robert Carmichael, Neil Gove, rh Michael Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robathan, Mr Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Graham, Richard Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Hugh Cash, Mr William Grant, Mrs Helen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Chishti, Rehman Gray, Mr James Lidington, Mr David Rogerson, Dan Clappison, Mr James Grayling, rh Chris Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rosindell, Andrew Clark, rh Greg Green, Damian Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Greening, Justine Long, Naomi Ruffley, Mr David Clegg, rh Mr Nick Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lopresti, Jack Russell, Bob Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Griffiths, Andrew Lord, Jonathan Rutley, David Clwyd, rh Ann Gummer, Ben Loughton, Tim Sanders, Mr Adrian 413 Deferred Divisions24 NOVEMBER 2010 Deferred Divisions 414

Sandys, Laura Tomlinson, Justin Elliott, Julie McGovern, Alison Scott, Mr Lee Tredinnick, David Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Jim Selous, Andrew Truss, Elizabeth Engel, Natascha McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Shannon, Jim Turner, Mr Andrew Esterson, Bill McKechin, Ann Shapps, rh Grant Tyrie, Mr Andrew Evans, Chris McKinnell, Catherine Sharma, Alok Uppal, Paul Farrelly, Paul Mearns, Ian Shelbrooke, Alec Vaizey, Mr Edward Fitzpatrick, Jim Michael, rh Alun Shepherd, Mr Richard Vara, Mr Shailesh Flello, Robert Miliband, rh David Simmonds, Mark Vickers, Martin Flint, rh Caroline Miliband, rh Edward Simpson, David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Flynn, Paul Miller, Andrew Simpson, Mr Keith Walker, Mr Charles Fovargue, Yvonne Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Skidmore, Chris Walker, Mr Robin Francis, Dr Hywel Morris, Grahame M. Smith, Miss Chloe Wallace, Mr Ben Gapes, Mike (Easington) Smith, Henry Walter, Mr Robert Gardiner, Barry Mudie, Mr George Smith, Julian Ward, Mr David Gilmore, Sheila Munn, Meg Smith, Sir Robert Watkinson, Angela Glass, Pat Murphy, rh Mr Jim Soames, Nicholas Weatherley, Mike Glindon, Mrs Mary Murphy, rh Paul Spencer, Mr Mark Webb, Steve Greatrex, Tom Murray, Ian Stephenson, Andrew Wharton, James Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Stevenson, John Wheeler, Heather Greenwood, Lilian Nash, Pamela Stewart, Bob White, Chris Griffith, Nia O’Donnell, Fiona Stewart, Iain Whittaker, Craig Gwynne, Andrew Onwurah, Chi Stewart, Rory Wiggin, Bill Hain, rh Mr Peter Osborne, Sandra Streeter, Mr Gary Willetts, rh Mr David Hamilton, Mr David Owen, Albert Stride, Mel Williams, Mr Mark Hamilton, Fabian Pearce, Teresa Stuart, Mr Graham Williams, Roger Hanson, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Stunell, Andrew Williams, Stephen Harris, Mr Tom Phillipson, Bridget Sturdy, Julian Williamson, Gavin Hendrick, Mark Qureshi, Yasmin Swales, Ian Willott, Jenny Hepburn, Mr Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Swayne, Mr Desmond Wilson, Mr Rob Hillier, Meg Reed, Mr Jamie Swinson, Jo Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hilling, Julie Reeves, Rachel Syms, Mr Robert Wright, Jeremy Hodge, rh Margaret Reynolds, Emma Teather, Sarah Wright, Simon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Jonathan Thurso, John Young, rh Sir George Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Timpson, Mr Edward Zahawi, Nadhim Howarth, rh Mr George Robertson, John Hunt, Tristram Robinson, Mr Geoffrey NOES Illsley, Mr Eric Rotheram, Steve Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Mr Frank Abbott, Ms Diane Campbell, Mr Ronnie Jackson, Glenda Ruane, Chris Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Chapman, Mrs Jenny James, Mrs Siân C. Ruddock, rh Joan Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Clark, Katy Jamieson, Cathy Sarwar, Anas Alexander, Heidi Clarke, rh Mr Tom Johnson, rh Alan Seabeck, Alison Ali, Rushanara Coaker, Vernon Johnson, Diana Sharma, Mr Virendra Austin, Ian Coffey, Ann Jones, Graham Sheerman, Mr Barry Bailey, Mr Adrian Connarty, Michael Jones, Helen Sheridan, Jim Bain, Mr William Cooper, Rosie Jones, Mr Kevan Shuker, Gavin Balls, rh Ed Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Susan Elan Singh, Mr Marsha Banks, Gordon Creagh, Mary Joyce, Eric Skinner, Mr Dennis Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cruddas, Jon Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Slaughter, Mr Andy Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Alex Keeley, Barbara Smith, rh Mr Andrew Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Mr Jim Kendall, Liz Smith, Angela Begg, Miss Anne Cunningham, Tony Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, Nick Benn, rh Hilary Curran, Margaret Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Owen Benton, Mr Joe Dakin, Nic Lazarowicz, Mark Soulsby, Sir Peter Berger, Luciana Danczuk, Simon Leslie, Chris Spellar, rh Mr John Betts, Mr Clive Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lewis, Mr Ivan Straw, rh Mr Jack Blackman-Woods, Roberta David, Mr Wayne Lloyd, Tony Stringer, Graham Blears, rh Hazel Davidson, Mr Ian Lucas, Caroline Stuart, Ms Gisela Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Geraint Lucas, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Blomfield, Paul De Piero, Gloria MacShane, rh Mr Denis Tami, Mark Blunkett, rh Mr David Denham, rh Mr John Mactaggart, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dobson, rh Frank Mahmood, Mr Khalid Thornberry, Emily Brennan, Kevin Docherty, Thomas Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Brown, Lyn Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mann, John Trickett, Jon Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Doran, Mr Frank Marsden, Mr Gordon Turner, Karl Brown, Mr Russell Doyle, Gemma McCabe, Steve Twigg, Derek Bryant, Chris Dromey, Jack McCann, Mr Michael Umunna, Mr Chuka Buck, Ms Karen Dugher, Michael McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, rh Keith Burden, Richard Durkan, Mark McClymont, Gregg Vaz, Valerie Byrne, rh Mr Liam Eagle, Ms Angela McDonagh, Siobhain Walley, Joan Cairns, David Eagle, Maria McDonnell, John Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Alan Efford, Clive McFadden, rh Mr Pat Whitehead, Dr Alan 415 Deferred Divisions24 NOVEMBER 2010 Deferred Divisions 416

Williamson, Chris Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Gove, rh Michael Leslie, Charlotte Wilson, Phil Woodcock, John Graham, Richard Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Winnick, Mr David Wright, David Grant, Mrs Helen Lewis, Brandon Gray, Mr James Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Question accordingly agreed to. Grayling, rh Chris Lidington, Mr David Green, Damian Lilley, rh Mr Peter Greening, Justine Lloyd, Stephen NORTHERN IRELAND Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Long, Naomi That the draft Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) Griffiths, Andrew Lopresti, Jack (Amendment) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on Gummer, Ben Lord, Jonathan 25 October, be approved. Gyimah, Mr Sam Loughton, Tim The House divided: Ayes 338, Noes 216. Halfon, Robert Luff, Peter Division No. 127] Hames, Duncan Lumley, Karen Hammond, rh Mr Philip Macleod, Mary AYES Hammond, Stephen Main, Mrs Anne Adams, Nigel Clark, rh Greg Hancock, Matthew Maude, rh Mr Francis Afriyie, Adam Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hancock, Mr Mike May, rh Mrs Theresa Aldous, Peter Clegg, rh Mr Nick Harper, Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Alexander, rh Danny Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harrington, Richard McCartney, Jason Amess, Mr David Clwyd, rh Ann Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Karl Andrew, Stuart Collins, Damian Hart, Simon McIntosh, Miss Anne Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Baker, Norman Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John McPartland, Stephen Baker, Steve Crabb, Stephen Heald, Mr Oliver McVey, Esther Baldry, Tony Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Meale, Mr Alan Baldwin, Harriett Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Menzies, Mark Barclay, Stephen Davey, Mr Edward Hemming, John Metcalfe, Stephen Barker, Gregory Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Miller, Maria Baron, Mr John (Monmouth) Hendry, Charles Mills, Nigel Barwell, Gavin Davies, Glyn Herbert, rh Nick Milton, Anne Bebb, Guto de Bois, Nick Hermon, Lady Moore, rh Michael Beith, rh Sir Alan Dinenage, Caroline Heyes, David Mordaunt, Penny Bellingham, Mr Henry Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hinds, Damian Morgan, Nicky Benyon, Richard Dobbin, Jim Hollingbery, George Morris, Anne Marie Beresford, Sir Paul Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, David Berry, Jake Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Holloway, Mr Adam Morris, James Bingham, Andrew Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kris Mosley, Stephen Binley, Mr Brian Dorries, Nadine Horwood, Martin Mowat, David Birtwistle, Gordon Doyle-Price, Jackie Howarth, Mr Gerald Mulholland, Greg Blackman, Bob Drax, Richard Howell, John Mundell, rh David Blackwood, Nicola Duddridge, James Hughes, Simon Murray, Sheryll Blunt, Mr Crispin Duncan, rh Mr Alan Huhne, rh Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Boles, Nick Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hunter, Mark Neill, Robert Bone, Mr Peter Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Newmark, Mr Brooks Bottomley, Peter Ellis, Michael Hurd, Mr Nick Newton, Sarah Bradley, Karen Ellison, Jane Jackson, Mr Stewart Nokes, Caroline Brady, Mr Graham Ellwood, Mr Tobias James, Margot Norman, Jesse Brake, Tom Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Nuttall, Mr David Bray, Angie Eustice, George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ollerenshaw, Eric Brazier, Mr Julian Evans, Graham Johnson, rh Alan Opperman, Guy Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Gareth Osborne, rh Mr George Brokenshire, James Evennett, Mr David Johnson, Joseph Ottaway, Richard Brooke, Annette Fabricant, Michael Jones, Andrew Paice, Mr James Bruce, Fiona Fallon, Michael Jones, Mr David Parish, Neil Bruce, rh Malcolm Field, Mr Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Patel, Priti Buckland, Mr Robert Foster, Mr Don Kawczynski, Daniel Pawsey, Mark Burley, Mr Aidan Fox,rhDrLiam Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Burnham, rh Andy Francois, rh Mr Mark Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Percy, Andrew Burns, Conor Freeman, George Kirby, Simon Perry, Claire Burns, Mr Simon Freer, Mike Knight, rh Mr Greg Phillips, Stephen Burrowes, Mr David Fullbrook, Lorraine Kwarteng, Kwasi Pickles, rh Mr Eric Burstow, Paul Fuller, Richard Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pincher, Christopher Burt, Lorely Gale, Mr Roger Lamb, Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Byles, Dan Garnier, Mr Edward Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Cairns, Alun Gauke, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Campbell, Mr Gregory George, Andrew Latham, Pauline Pugh, Dr John Carmichael, Mr Alistair Gibb, Mr Nick Laws, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Carmichael, Neil Gilbert, Stephen Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Mr John Carswell, Mr Douglas Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Cash, Mr William Glen, John Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Chishti, Rehman Goldsmith, Zac Leech, Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Clappison, Mr James Goodwill, Mr Robert Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon 417 Deferred Divisions24 NOVEMBER 2010 Deferred Divisions 418

Reid, Mr Alan Swinson, Jo Denham, rh Mr John Mahmood, Mr Khalid Robathan, Mr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Dobson, rh Frank Mahmood, Shabana Robertson, Hugh Teather, Sarah Docherty, Thomas Mann, John Robertson, Mr Laurence Thurso, John Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Marsden, Mr Gordon Rogerson, Dan Timpson, Mr Edward Doran, Mr Frank McCabe, Steve Rosindell, Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Doyle, Gemma McCann, Mr Michael Rudd, Amber Tredinnick, David Dromey, Jack McCarthy, Kerry Ruffley, Mr David Truss, Elizabeth Dugher, Michael McClymont, Gregg Russell, Bob Turner, Mr Andrew Durkan, Mark McDonagh, Siobhain Rutley, David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Eagle, Ms Angela McDonnell, John Sanders, Mr Adrian Uppal, Paul Eagle, Maria McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sandys, Laura Vaizey, Mr Edward Efford, Clive McGovern, Alison Scott, Mr Lee Vara, Mr Shailesh Elliott, Julie McGovern, Jim Selous, Andrew Vickers, Martin Ellman, Mrs Louise McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Shannon, Jim Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Engel, Natascha McKechin, Ann Shapps, rh Grant Walker, Mr Charles Esterson, Bill McKinnell, Catherine Sharma, Alok Walker, Mr Robin Evans, Chris Mearns, Ian Shelbrooke, Alec Wallace, Mr Ben Farrelly, Paul Michael, rh Alun Shepherd, Mr Richard Walter, Mr Robert Fitzpatrick, Jim Miliband, rh David Simmonds, Mark Ward, Mr David Flello, Robert Miliband, rh Edward Simpson, David Watkinson, Angela Flint, rh Caroline Miller, Andrew Simpson, Mr Keith Weatherley, Mike Flynn, Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Skidmore, Chris Webb, Steve Fovargue, Yvonne Morris, Grahame M. Smith, Miss Chloe Wharton, James Francis, Dr Hywel (Easington) Smith, Henry Wheeler, Heather Gapes, Mike Mudie, Mr George Smith, Julian White, Chris Gardiner, Barry Munn, Meg Smith, Sir Robert Whittaker, Craig Gilmore, Sheila Murphy, rh Mr Jim Glass, Pat Murphy, rh Paul Soames, Nicholas Wiggin, Bill Spencer, Mr Mark Glindon, Mrs Mary Murray, Ian Willetts, rh Mr David Stephenson, Andrew Greatrex, Tom Nandy, Lisa Williams, Mr Mark Stevenson, John Green, Kate Nash, Pamela Williams, Roger Stewart, Bob Greenwood, Lilian O’Donnell, Fiona Williams, Stephen Stewart, Iain Griffith, Nia Onwurah, Chi Stewart, Rory Williamson, Gavin Gwynne, Andrew Osborne, Sandra Streeter, Mr Gary Willott, Jenny Hain, rh Mr Peter Owen, Albert Stride, Mel Wilson, Mr Rob Hamilton, Mr David Pearce, Teresa Stuart, Mr Graham Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hamilton, Fabian Perkins, Toby Stunell, Andrew Wright, Jeremy Hanson, rh Mr David Phillipson, Bridget Sturdy, Julian Wright, Simon Harris, Mr Tom Qureshi, Yasmin Swales, Ian Young, rh Sir George Hendrick, Mark Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Swayne, Mr Desmond Zahawi, Nadhim Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reed, Mr Jamie Hillier, Meg Reeves, Rachel NOES Hilling, Julie Reynolds, Emma Hodge, rh Margaret Reynolds, Jonathan Abbott, Ms Diane Bryant, Chris Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Riordan, Mrs Linda Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Buck, Ms Karen Hopkins, Kelvin Robertson, John Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Burden, Richard Howarth, rh Mr George Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Alexander, Heidi Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hunt, Tristram Rotheram, Steve Ali, Rushanara Cairns, David Illsley, Mr Eric Roy, Mr Frank Austin, Ian Campbell, Mr Alan Irranca-Davies, Huw Ruane, Chris Bailey, Mr Adrian Campbell, Mr Ronnie Jackson, Glenda Ruddock, rh Joan Bain, Mr William Chapman, Mrs Jenny James, Mrs Siân C. Sarwar, Anas Balls, rh Ed Clark, Katy Jamieson, Cathy Seabeck, Alison Banks, Gordon Clarke, rh Mr Tom Johnson, Diana Sharma, Mr Virendra Barron, rh Mr Kevin Coaker, Vernon Jones, Graham Sheerman, Mr Barry Bayley, Hugh Coffey, Ann Jones, Helen Sheridan, Jim Beckett, rh Margaret Connarty, Michael Jones, Mr Kevan Shuker, Gavin Begg, Miss Anne Cooper, Rosie Jones, Susan Elan Singh, Mr Marsha Benn, rh Hilary Cooper, rh Yvette Joyce, Eric Skinner, Mr Dennis Benton, Mr Joe Creagh, Mary Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Slaughter, Mr Andy Berger, Luciana Cruddas, Jon Keeley, Barbara Smith, rh Mr Andrew Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Alex Kendall, Liz Smith, Angela Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cunningham, Mr Jim Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, Nick Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Tony Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Owen Blenkinsop, Tom Curran, Margaret Lazarowicz, Mark Soulsby, Sir Peter Blomfield, Paul Dakin, Nic Leslie, Chris Spellar, rh Mr John Blunkett, rh Mr David Danczuk, Simon Lewis, Mr Ivan Straw, rh Mr Jack Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lloyd, Tony Stringer, Graham Brennan, Kevin David, Mr Wayne Lucas, Caroline Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, Lyn Davidson, Mr Ian Lucas, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Davies, Geraint MacShane, rh Mr Denis Tami, Mark Brown, Mr Russell De Piero, Gloria Mactaggart, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth 419 Deferred Divisions24 NOVEMBER 2010 Deferred Divisions 420

Thornberry, Emily Watts, Mr Dave Crabb, Stephen Garnier, Mr Edward Timms, rh Stephen Whitehead, Dr Alan Creagh, Mary Gauke, Mr David Trickett, Jon Williamson, Chris Crouch, Tracey Gibb, Mr Nick Cruddas, Jon Gilbert, Stephen Turner, Karl Wilson, Phil Twigg, Derek Cunningham, Alex Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Winnick, Mr David Umunna, Mr Chuka Cunningham, Mr Jim Gilmore, Sheila Vaz, rh Keith Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cunningham, Tony Glass, Pat Vaz, Valerie Woodcock, John Curran, Margaret Glen, John Walley, Joan Wright, David Dakin, Nic Glindon, Mrs Mary Danczuk, Simon Goggins, rh Paul Question accordingly agreed to. Darling, rh Mr Alistair Goodwill, Mr Robert Davey, Mr Edward Gove, rh Michael David, Mr Wayne Graham, Richard HEALTH AND SAFETY Davidson, Mr Ian Grant, Mrs Helen That the draft Justification Decision (Generation of Electricity Davies, David T. C. Gray, Mr James by the EPR Nuclear Reactor) Regulations 2010, which were laid (Monmouth) Grayling, rh Chris before this House on 18 October, be approved. Davies, Geraint Greatrex, Tom The House divided: Ayes 520, Noes 27. Davies, Glyn Green, Damian Division No. 128] de Bois, Nick Green, Kate De Piero, Gloria Greening, Justine AYES Dinenage, Caroline Greenwood, Lilian Abbott, Ms Diane Bradley, Karen Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Adams, Nigel Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dobson, rh Frank Griffith, Nia Afriyie, Adam Brady, Mr Graham Docherty, Thomas Griffiths, Andrew Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Bray, Angie Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Gummer, Ben Aldous, Peter Brazier, Mr Julian Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Gwynne, Andrew Alexander, rh Danny Brennan, Kevin Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Gyimah, Mr Sam Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bridgen, Andrew Doran, Mr Frank Hain, rh Mr Peter Alexander, Heidi Brokenshire, James Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Halfon, Robert Ali, Rushanara Brooke, Annette Dorries, Nadine Hamilton, Mr David Amess, Mr David Brown, Lyn Doyle, Gemma Hamilton, Fabian Andrew, Stuart Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Doyle-Price, Jackie Hammond, rh Mr Philip Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brown, Mr Russell Drax, Richard Hammond, Stephen Austin, Ian Bruce, Fiona Dromey, Jack Hancock, Matthew Bailey, Mr Adrian Bryant, Chris Duddridge, James Hancock, Mr Mike Bain, Mr William Buck, Ms Karen Dugher, Michael Hanson, rh Mr David Baker, Steve Buckland, Mr Robert Duncan, rh Mr Alan Harper, Mr Mark Baldry, Tony Burden, Richard Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Harrington, Richard Baldwin, Harriett Burley, Mr Aidan Dunne, Mr Philip Harris, Rebecca Balls, rh Ed Burns, Conor Eagle, Ms Angela Harris, Mr Tom Banks, Gordon Burns, Mr Simon Eagle, Maria Hart, Simon Barclay, Stephen Burrowes, Mr David Efford, Clive Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Barker, Gregory Burstow, Paul Elliott, Julie Hayes, Mr John Baron, Mr John Byles, Dan Ellis, Michael Heald, Mr Oliver Barron, rh Mr Kevin Byrne, rh Mr Liam Ellison, Jane Heath, Mr David Barwell, Gavin Cairns, Alun Ellman, Mrs Louise Heaton-Harris, Chris Bayley, Hugh Cairns, David Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hemming, John Bebb, Guto Campbell, Mr Alan Elphicke, Charlie Henderson, Gordon Beckett, rh Margaret Campbell, Mr Gregory Esterson, Bill Hendrick, Mark Begg, Miss Anne Campbell, Mr Ronnie Eustice, George Hendry, Charles Bellingham, Mr Henry Carmichael, Mr Alistair Evans, Chris Hepburn, Mr Stephen Benn, rh Hilary Carmichael, Neil Evans, Graham Herbert, rh Nick Benton, Mr Joe Carswell, Mr Douglas Evans, Jonathan Hermon, Lady Benyon, Richard Cash, Mr William Evennett, Mr David Hillier, Meg Beresford, Sir Paul Chapman, Mrs Jenny Fabricant, Michael Hilling, Julie Berger, Luciana Chishti, Rehman Fallon, Michael Hinds, Damian Berry, Jake Clappison, Mr James Farrelly, Paul Hodge, rh Margaret Betts, Mr Clive Clark, rh Greg Field, Mr Mark Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Bingham, Andrew Clark, Katy Fitzpatrick, Jim Hollingbery, George Binley, Mr Brian Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Flello, Robert Hollobone, Mr Philip Birtwistle, Gordon Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flint, rh Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Blackman, Bob Clegg, rh Mr Nick Fovargue, Yvonne Hopkins, Kris Blackman-Woods, Roberta Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Fox,rhDrLiam Howarth, Mr Gerald Blackwood, Nicola Clwyd, rh Ann Francis, Dr Hywel Howell, John Blears, rh Hazel Coaker, Vernon Francois, rh Mr Mark Huhne, rh Chris Blenkinsop, Tom Coffey, Ann Freeman, George Hunt, Tristram Blomfield, Paul Collins, Damian Freer, Mike Hunter, Mark Blunkett, rh Mr David Colvile, Oliver Fullbrook, Lorraine Huppert, Dr Julian Blunt, Mr Crispin Connarty, Michael Fuller, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Boles, Nick Cooper, Rosie Gale, Mr Roger Illsley, Mr Eric Bone, Mr Peter Cooper, rh Yvette Gapes, Mike Irranca-Davies, Huw Bottomley, Peter Cox, Mr Geoffrey Gardiner, Barry Jackson, Glenda 421 Deferred Divisions24 NOVEMBER 2010 Deferred Divisions 422

Jackson, Mr Stewart McDonagh, Siobhain Pritchard, Mark Straw, rh Mr Jack James, Margot McFadden, rh Mr Pat Pugh, Dr John Streeter, Mr Gary Jamieson, Cathy McGovern, Alison Qureshi, Yasmin Stride, Mel Javid, Sajid McGovern, Jim Raab, Mr Dominic Stringer, Graham Jenkin, Mr Bernard McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Randall, rh Mr John Stuart, Ms Gisela Johnson, Diana McIntosh, Miss Anne Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Stuart, Mr Graham Johnson, Gareth McKechin, Ann Reckless, Mark Stunell, Andrew Johnson, Joseph McKinnell, Catherine Redwood, rh Mr John Sturdy, Julian Jones, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Reed, Mr Jamie Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Jones, Mr David McPartland, Stephen Rees-Mogg, Jacob Swales, Ian Jones, Graham McVey, Esther Reevell, Simon Swayne, Mr Desmond Jones, Helen Meale, Mr Alan Reeves, Rachel Syms, Mr Robert Jones, Mr Kevan Mearns, Ian Reid, Mr Alan Tami, Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Menzies, Mark Reynolds, Emma Teather, Sarah Jones, Susan Elan Metcalfe, Stephen Reynolds, Jonathan Thomas, Mr Gareth Joyce, Eric Michael, rh Alun Riordan, Mrs Linda Thornberry, Emily Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Miliband, rh David Robathan, Mr Andrew Thurso, John Kawczynski, Daniel Miliband, rh Edward Robertson, Hugh Timms, rh Stephen Keeley, Barbara Miller, Andrew Robertson, John Timpson, Mr Edward Kelly, Chris Miller, Maria Robertson, Mr Laurence Tomlinson, Justin Kendall, Liz Mills, Nigel Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Tredinnick, David Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Milton, Anne Rosindell, Andrew Truss, Elizabeth Khan, rh Sadiq Moore, rh Michael Rotheram, Steve Turner, Mr Andrew Kirby, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Roy, Mr Frank Turner, Karl Knight, rh Mr Greg Morgan, Nicky Ruane, Chris Twigg, Derek Kwarteng, Kwasi Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Rudd, Amber Tyrie, Mr Andrew Laing, Mrs Eleanor Morris, Anne Marie Ruddock, rh Joan Umunna, Mr Chuka Lamb, Norman Morris, David Ruffley, Mr David Uppal, Paul Lammy, rh Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Russell, Bob Vaizey, Mr Edward Lancaster, Mark (Easington) Rutley, David Vara, Mr Shailesh Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Morris, James Sandys, Laura Vaz, rh Keith Latham, Pauline Mosley, Stephen Sarwar, Anas Vaz, Valerie Lavery, Ian Mowat, David Scott, Mr Lee Vickers, Martin Laws, rh Mr David Mudie, Mr George Seabeck, Alison Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Lazarowicz, Mark Mundell, rh David Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles Leadsom, Andrea Munn, Meg Shannon, Jim Walker, Mr Robin Lee, Jessica Murphy, rh Mr Jim Shapps, rh Grant Wallace, Mr Ben Lee, Dr Phillip Murphy, rh Paul Sharma, Alok Walley, Joan Lefroy, Jeremy Murray, Ian Sharma, Mr Virendra Walter, Mr Robert Leslie, Charlotte Murray, Sheryll Sheerman, Mr Barry Ward, Mr David Leslie, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Shelbrooke, Alec Watkinson, Angela Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Nandy, Lisa Shepherd, Mr Richard Weatherley, Mike Lewis, Brandon Nash, Pamela Sheridan, Jim Webb, Steve Lewis, Mr Ivan Neill, Robert Shuker, Gavin Wharton, James Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Newmark, Mr Brooks Simmonds, Mark Wheeler, Heather Lidington, Mr David Newton, Sarah Simpson, David White, Chris Lilley, rh Mr Peter Nokes, Caroline Simpson, Mr Keith Whitehead, Dr Alan Lloyd, Tony Norman, Jesse Skidmore, Chris Whittaker, Craig Long, Naomi Nuttall, Mr David Slaughter, Mr Andy Wiggin, Bill Lopresti, Jack O’Donnell, Fiona Smith, rh Mr Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Lord, Jonathan Ollerenshaw, Eric Smith, Angela Williams, Mr Mark Loughton, Tim Onwurah, Chi Smith, Miss Chloe Williams, Roger Lucas, Ian Opperman, Guy Smith, Henry Williams, Stephen Luff, Peter Osborne, rh Mr George Smith, Julian Williamson, Chris Lumley, Karen Osborne, Sandra Smith, Nick Williamson, Gavin Macleod, Mary Ottaway, Richard Smith, Owen Willott, Jenny MacShane, rh Mr Denis Owen, Albert Smith, Sir Robert Wilson, Phil Mactaggart, Fiona Paice, Mr James Soames, Nicholas Wilson, Mr Rob Mahmood, Mr Khalid Parish, Neil Soulsby, Sir Peter Winnick, Mr David Mahmood, Shabana Patel, Priti Spellar, rh Mr John Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Main, Mrs Anne Pawsey, Mark Spencer, Mr Mark Wollaston, Dr Sarah Mann, John Pearce, Teresa Stephenson, Andrew Woodcock, John Marsden, Mr Gordon Penrose, John Stevenson, John Wright, David Maude, rh Mr Francis Percy, Andrew Stewart, Bob Wright, Jeremy May, rh Mrs Theresa Perkins, Toby Stewart, Iain Young, rh Sir George Maynard, Paul Perry, Claire Stewart, Rory Zahawi, Nadhim McCabe, Steve Phillips, Stephen McCann, Mr Michael Phillipson, Bridget NOES McCarthy, Kerry Pickles, rh Mr Eric Burnham, rh Andy Durkan, Mark McCartney, Jason Pincher, Christopher Denham, rh Mr John Edwards, Jonathan McCartney, Karl Poulter, Dr Daniel Dobbin, Jim Engel, Natascha McClymont, Gregg Prisk, Mr Mark 423 Deferred Divisions24 NOVEMBER 2010 Deferred Divisions 424

Flynn, Paul McDonnell, John Cooper, rh Yvette Gapes, Mike Goldsmith, Zac Robertson, Angus Cox, Mr Geoffrey Gardiner, Barry Heyes, David Singh, Mr Marsha Crabb, Stephen Garnier, Mr Edward Hopkins, Kelvin Skinner, Mr Dennis Creagh, Mary Gauke, Mr David Crouch, Tracey Gibb, Mr Nick Horwood, Martin Trickett, Jon Howarth, rh Mr George Cruddas, Jon Gilbert, Stephen Watts, Mr Dave Johnson, rh Alan Cunningham, Alex Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leech, Mr John Weir, Mr Mike Cunningham, Mr Jim Gilmore, Sheila Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cunningham, Tony Glass, Pat Lucas, Caroline Williams, Hywel Curran, Margaret Glen, John MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Wishart, Pete Dakin, Nic Glindon, Mrs Mary Danczuk, Simon Goggins, rh Paul Question accordingly agreed to. Darling, rh Mr Alistair Goodwill, Mr Robert Davey, Mr Edward Gove, rh Michael HEALTH AND SAFETY David, Mr Wayne Graham, Richard That the draft Justification Decision (Generation of Electricity Davidson, Mr Ian Grant, Mrs Helen by the AP1000 Nuclear Reactor) Regulations 2010, which were Davies, David T. C. Gray, Mr James laid before this House on 18 October, be approved. (Monmouth) Grayling, rh Chris Davies, Geraint Greatrex, Tom The House divided: Ayes 517, Noes 26. Davies, Glyn Green, Damian Division No. 129] de Bois, Nick Green, Kate De Piero, Gloria Greening, Justine AYES Dinenage, Caroline Greenwood, Lilian Abbott, Ms Diane Bone, Mr Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Adams, Nigel Bottomley, Peter Dobson, rh Frank Griffith, Nia Afriyie, Adam Bradley, Karen Docherty, Thomas Griffiths, Andrew Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Gummer, Ben Aldous, Peter Brady, Mr Graham Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Gwynne, Andrew Alexander, rh Danny Bray, Angie Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Gyimah, Mr Sam Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Brazier, Mr Julian Doran, Mr Frank Hain, rh Mr Peter Alexander, Heidi Brennan, Kevin Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Halfon, Robert Ali, Rushanara Bridgen, Andrew Dorries, Nadine Hamilton, Mr David Amess, Mr David Brokenshire, James Doyle, Gemma Hamilton, Fabian Andrew, Stuart Brown, Lyn Doyle-Price, Jackie Hammond, rh Mr Philip Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Drax, Richard Hammond, Stephen Austin, Ian Brown, Mr Russell Dromey, Jack Hancock, Matthew Bailey, Mr Adrian Bruce, Fiona Duddridge, James Hancock, Mr Mike Bain, Mr William Bryant, Chris Dugher, Michael Hanson, rh Mr David Baker, Steve Buck, Ms Karen Duncan, rh Mr Alan Harper, Mr Mark Baldry, Tony Buckland, Mr Robert Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Harrington, Richard Baldwin, Harriett Burden, Richard Dunne, Mr Philip Harris, Rebecca Balls, rh Ed Burley, Mr Aidan Eagle, Ms Angela Harris, Mr Tom Banks, Gordon Burns, Conor Eagle, Maria Hart, Simon Barclay, Stephen Burns, Mr Simon Efford, Clive Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Barker, Gregory Burrowes, Mr David Elliott, Julie Hayes, Mr John Baron, Mr John Burstow, Paul Ellis, Michael Heald, Mr Oliver Barron, rh Mr Kevin Byles, Dan Ellison, Jane Heath, Mr David Barwell, Gavin Byrne, rh Mr Liam Ellman, Mrs Louise Heaton-Harris, Chris Bayley, Hugh Cairns, Alun Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hemming, John Bebb, Guto Cairns, David Elphicke, Charlie Henderson, Gordon Beckett, rh Margaret Campbell, Mr Alan Esterson, Bill Hendrick, Mark Begg, Miss Anne Campbell, Mr Gregory Eustice, George Hendry, Charles Bellingham, Mr Henry Campbell, Mr Ronnie Evans, Chris Hepburn, Mr Stephen Benn, rh Hilary Carmichael, Mr Alistair Evans, Graham Herbert, rh Nick Benton, Mr Joe Carmichael, Neil Evans, Jonathan Hermon, Lady Benyon, Richard Carswell, Mr Douglas Evennett, Mr David Hillier, Meg Beresford, Sir Paul Cash, Mr William Fabricant, Michael Hilling, Julie Berger, Luciana Chapman, Mrs Jenny Fallon, Michael Hinds, Damian Berry, Jake Chishti, Rehman Farrelly, Paul Hodge, rh Margaret Betts, Mr Clive Clappison, Mr James Field, Mr Mark Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Bingham, Andrew Clark, rh Greg Fitzpatrick, Jim Hollingbery, George Binley, Mr Brian Clark, Katy Flello, Robert Hollobone, Mr Philip Birtwistle, Gordon Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Flint, rh Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Blackman, Bob Clarke, rh Mr Tom Fovargue, Yvonne Hopkins, Kris Blackman-Woods, Roberta Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Fox,rhDrLiam Howarth, Mr Gerald Blackwood, Nicola Clwyd, rh Ann Francis, Dr Hywel Howell, John Blears, rh Hazel Coaker, Vernon Francois, rh Mr Mark Huhne, rh Chris Blenkinsop, Tom Coffey, Ann Freeman, George Hunt, Tristram Blomfield, Paul Collins, Damian Freer, Mike Hunter, Mark Blunkett, rh Mr David Colvile, Oliver Fullbrook, Lorraine Huppert, Dr Julian Blunt, Mr Crispin Connarty, Michael Fuller, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Boles, Nick Cooper, Rosie Gale, Mr Roger Illsley, Mr Eric 425 Deferred Divisions24 NOVEMBER 2010 Deferred Divisions 426

Irranca-Davies, Huw McCartney, Karl Poulter, Dr Daniel Straw, rh Mr Jack Jackson, Glenda McClymont, Gregg Prisk, Mr Mark Streeter, Mr Gary Jackson, Mr Stewart McDonagh, Siobhain Pritchard, Mark Stride, Mel James, Margot McFadden, rh Mr Pat Pugh, Dr John Stringer, Graham Jamieson, Cathy McGovern, Alison Qureshi, Yasmin Stuart, Ms Gisela Javid, Sajid McGovern, Jim Randall, rh Mr John Stuart, Mr Graham Jenkin, Mr Bernard McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Stunell, Andrew Johnson, rh Alan McIntosh, Miss Anne Reckless, Mark Sturdy, Julian Johnson, Diana McKechin, Ann Redwood, rh Mr John Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Johnson, Gareth McKinnell, Catherine Reed, Mr Jamie Swales, Ian Johnson, Joseph McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Rees-Mogg, Jacob Swayne, Mr Desmond Jones, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Reevell, Simon Syms, Mr Robert Jones, Mr David McVey, Esther Reeves, Rachel Tami, Mark Jones, Graham Meale, Mr Alan Reid, Mr Alan Teather, Sarah Jones, Helen Mearns, Ian Reynolds, Emma Thomas, Mr Gareth Jones, Mr Kevan Menzies, Mark Reynolds, Jonathan Thornberry, Emily Jones, Mr Marcus Metcalfe, Stephen Riordan, Mrs Linda Thurso, John Jones, Susan Elan Michael, rh Alun Robathan, Mr Andrew Timms, rh Stephen Joyce, Eric Miliband, rh David Robertson, Hugh Timpson, Mr Edward Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Miliband, rh Edward Robertson, John Tomlinson, Justin Kawczynski, Daniel Miller, Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Tredinnick, David Keeley, Barbara Miller, Maria Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Truss, Elizabeth Kelly, Chris Mills, Nigel Rosindell, Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Kendall, Liz Milton, Anne Rotheram, Steve Turner, Karl Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Moore, rh Michael Roy, Mr Frank Twigg, Derek Khan, rh Sadiq Mordaunt, Penny Ruane, Chris Tyrie, Mr Andrew Kirby, Simon Morgan, Nicky Rudd, Amber Umunna, Mr Chuka Knight, rh Mr Greg Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Ruddock, rh Joan Uppal, Paul Kwarteng, Kwasi Morris, Anne Marie Ruffley, Mr David Vaizey, Mr Edward Laing, Mrs Eleanor Morris, David Russell, Bob Vara, Mr Shailesh Lamb, Norman Morris, Grahame M. Rutley, David Vaz, rh Keith Lammy, rh Mr David (Easington) Sandys, Laura Vaz, Valerie Lancaster, Mark Morris, James Sarwar, Anas Vickers, Martin Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Mosley, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Latham, Pauline Mowat, David Seabeck, Alison Walker, Mr Charles Laws, rh Mr David Mudie, Mr George Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Lazarowicz, Mark Mundell, rh David Shannon, Jim Wallace, Mr Ben Leadsom, Andrea Munn, Meg Shapps, rh Grant Walley, Joan Lee, Jessica Murphy, rh Mr Jim Sharma, Alok Walter, Mr Robert Lee, Dr Phillip Murphy, rh Paul Sharma, Mr Virendra Ward, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Murray, Ian Sheerman, Mr Barry Watkinson, Angela Leslie, Charlotte Murray, Sheryll Shelbrooke, Alec Weatherley, Mike Leslie, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Shepherd, Mr Richard Webb, Steve Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Nandy, Lisa Sheridan, Jim Wharton, James Lewis, Brandon Nash, Pamela Shuker, Gavin Wheeler, Heather Lewis, Mr Ivan Neill, Robert Simmonds, Mark White, Chris Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Newmark, Mr Brooks Simpson, David Whitehead, Dr Alan Lidington, Mr David Newton, Sarah Simpson, Mr Keith Whittaker, Craig Lilley, rh Mr Peter Nokes, Caroline Skidmore, Chris Wiggin, Bill Lloyd, Tony Norman, Jesse Slaughter, Mr Andy Willetts, rh Mr David Long, Naomi Nuttall, Mr David Smith, rh Mr Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Lopresti, Jack O’Donnell, Fiona Smith, Angela Williams, Roger Lord, Jonathan Ollerenshaw, Eric Smith, Miss Chloe Williams, Stephen Loughton, Tim Onwurah, Chi Smith, Henry Williamson, Chris Lucas, Ian Opperman, Guy Smith, Julian Williamson, Gavin Luff, Peter Osborne, rh Mr George Smith, Nick Willott, Jenny Lumley, Karen Osborne, Sandra Smith, Owen Wilson, Phil Macleod, Mary Ottaway, Richard Smith, Sir Robert Wilson, Mr Rob MacShane, rh Mr Denis Owen, Albert Soames, Nicholas Mactaggart, Fiona Paice, Mr James Soulsby, Sir Peter Winnick, Mr David Mahmood, Mr Khalid Parish, Neil Spellar, rh Mr John Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Mahmood, Shabana Patel, Priti Spencer, Mr Mark Wollaston, Dr Sarah Main, Mrs Anne Pawsey, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Woodcock, John Mann, John Pearce, Teresa Stevenson, John Wright, David Marsden, Mr Gordon Penrose, John Stewart, Bob Wright, Jeremy Maude, rh Mr Francis Percy, Andrew Stewart, Iain Young, rh Sir George May, rh Mrs Theresa Perkins, Toby Stewart, Rory Zahawi, Nadhim Maynard, Paul Perry, Claire McCabe, Steve Phillips, Stephen NOES McCann, Mr Michael Phillipson, Bridget Burnham, rh Andy Dobbin, Jim McCarthy, Kerry Pickles, rh Mr Eric Denham, rh Mr John Durkan, Mark McCartney, Jason Pincher, Christopher 427 Deferred Divisions24 NOVEMBER 2010 Deferred Divisions 428

Edwards, Jonathan Howarth, rh Mr George Singh, Mr Marsha Weir, Mr Mike Engel, Natascha Leech, Mr John Skinner, Mr Dennis Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Flynn, Paul Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Trickett, Jon Williams, Hywel Goldsmith, Zac Lucas, Caroline Watts, Mr Dave Wishart, Pete Heyes, David MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Hopkins, Kelvin McDonnell, John Question accordingly agreed to. Horwood, Martin Robertson, Angus

77WH 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 78WH

Two years ago, when I spent time as an advocate in Westminster Hall Cambodia, using my status as an MP to bring about change in education, I saw the work of VSO and was Wednesday 24 November 2010 privileged to bring about, to a slight extent, a change in teachers’ salaries, making them less prone to corruption and making exam results more believable, which is an [MR PETER BONE in the Chair] important factor in an emerging economy if skills and professionalism are to be trusted. I saw the good work that VSO was doing. In its turn, VSO ensured that Overseas Voluntary Sector other MPs, not just me, saw what was happening outside Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting the Westminster and western European bubbles. be now adjourned.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) Ever since its creation in 1958, with a grant of £9,000, VSO has blossomed into one of the foremost aid 9.30 am organisations in the world, aiding countries in training Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) health workers and teachers, from Sri Lanka to Malawi (SNP): I thank you, Mr Bone, for taking the time and in 44 other countries, reaching 26 million people in to chair this debate. I welcome this Government’s policy those countries—not the total population, but the number to increase overseas aid from 0.56 to 0.7% of gross of people that VSO reaches and touches through its national income—a step that was agreed in 1970, the programmes and partners. year of my birth. By the time I am 45, we might have met our promise. Other Governments have failed. I David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I welcome you wish this Government well in meeting their stated aim to the Chair, Mr Bone, and congratulate the hon. within the projected time scale. Gentleman on securing the debate. I will not even try to pronounce his constituency. We have difficulties enough Although I welcome the increase in the Department in Northern Ireland with the English language, so it for International Development budget, I want to know would be difficult to try to get that. what it will mean in respect of my experience in the sector. One windy, rainy day in the Outer Hebrides—we Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, for many years, do have such days—I clicked on the DFID website, one difficulty in respect of overseas aid has been that being at a loose end, and looked at pages on working not all the moneys have gone to those most in need? with DFID, funding opportunities, not-for-profit Although we appreciate and welcome the increase in organisations, and programme partnership agreements. funding for the overseas voluntary sector, does he agree Hon. and right hon. Members will have guessed that it that it is essential that, during these economic times, was one of those wet and windy rainy days in the Outer money is targeted, because it can so easily be sidetracked Hebrides when the wind howled and the rain lashed; to unscrupulous characters? they are few and far between, but they do happen. I also looked at the part of the DFID site that invites applications Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman anticipates me. for a new round of PPA funding. Finally, in frequently He raises the concerns of many. I hope to demonstrate asked questions, under “Proposal and Logical Framework that such fears can be allayed, so perhaps the Gentleman information”, my eyes alighted on point 2, particularly will bear with me. If I do not answer his concern, the following sentence: I would welcome another intervention. “Successful applicants cannot receive a PPA which is more than 40% of their annual income, averaged over the previous Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I congratulate the three years.” hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. I Having been asked by VSO to go on an overseas placement apologise because I will not be able to stay to the end. to Cambodia, I had to ask what that meant. At this Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the partnership point, I should mention the sad news from the festival between DFID and VSO is hugely valuable and that in Cambodia over the past couple of days, where up to millions of people benefit from it? It is not an unreasonable 350 to 400 people lost their lives in a crush. In Cambodia, proposition for its funding to be limited to 40%, but it I was aware of DFID funding coming through VSO might be unreasonable for that to be done in too short a and of the high esteem in which DFID is held overseas. time. VSO recognises that, if it has to accommodate Therefore, my interest in this topic was driven not by that within three years, its programme could be halved. the rain, but by the fact that I had been on a placement Does he agree that the Government should be prepared to Cambodia, as a Member of Parliament, for two or to negotiate to ensure that VSO’s services are not cut three weeks, and I felt a debt to VSO. Voluntary service and that it gets the money, and that business, for example, overseas expanded my horizons most definitely and I should support this valuable work? felt duty bound to ask what DFID had on the horizon for VSO—that will probably also affect One World Mr MacNeil: Again, my remarks have been anticipated. Action and Progressio. I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. It is At a time of budgetary concerns, I felt that my important that money is spent properly and that, if interest was a mere courtesy, the sort of courtesy that changes are made, there is a managed transition, not a we Scots are famous for—he said, looking at his friends breakneck-speed shift overnight. from Northern Ireland—especially as the DFID budget VSO has also helped in one of the most important is to grow, according to page 60 of the comprehensive government activities, without which there would no spending review, by 37% over the next three years. health care, no education and no spending. It has Although my comments will be mainly about VSO, as helped the Governments of Bangladesh and Sierra Leone I have said, this matter affects other organisations. specifically to collect taxes from their people. Perhaps 79WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 80WH

[Mr MacNeil] they can be made at all. However, DFID is receiving an increase in funding. It is one of four Whitehall Departments Ministers’ eyes will light up at this point—perhaps to receive an increase, and one of two Departments, not—but that is a sign that people are getting round to together with the Cabinet Office, to receive a double-digit trusting their Governments. Perhaps some hon. Members increase in funding. According to the comprehensive would like VSO to go into the City of London to ensure spending review, the Cabinet Office budget has risen by that every penny of tax is paid. But I digress. VSO’s 28% and that of DFID by 37%. On the surface, that work in that regard shows that corruption abroad can seems to bode well for all organisations that use DFID be tackled, that the high-value components we take for funds. However, an increase in the departmental granted in our civic lives can be established and that administration budget seems not to guarantee the safety normal society can start to be built. of funds that go to the overseas voluntary sector. VSO specialises in capacity building. It takes nationals from various countries—mainly the United Kingdom—and The Minister of State, Department for International places them mainly in less fortunate countries. The Development (Mr Alan Duncan): Perhaps it might help value of the professionalism of volunteers, if they were to shape the rest of the debate if I were to point out that to be paid what the market paid them before they joined the partnership programme agreement funding is but VSO, would be some £18 million. Hon. Members might one source of possible funding streams for voluntary want to think about that. Volunteers forgo £18 million organisations. If there is, as there will be, a 40% cap on a in wages annually, presumably based on a 40-hour PPA, that is not necessarily a 40% cap on all the money week, but on top of that they move abroad. However, it that could go to a voluntary organisation. Such is not quite the abroad that we know or as we like to organisations could, for instance, also apply for in-country imagine it—it is the other abroad of malaria and dengue funds. fever. I met a volunteer in Phnom Penh who was getting over a rather nasty dose of dengue fever. Of course, Mr MacNeil: I greatly welcome the tone of the Minister’s volunteers are often abroad in a village with no electricity remarks. They seem to indicate that the door is ajar, and and, perhaps, no running water—for not just 40 hours a that he is ready to ensure that the transition happens in week, but 168 hours a week and 24/7. the managed way that all in the Chamber would hope Volunteers build capacity in education and health. for and expect. The threat is perhaps not so great given They build capacity wherever it is needed. They are that opening door from the Minister, and we have heard ordinary men and women and I would argue, perhaps of the value of volunteering from the Prime Minister. I controversially in the current surroundings, that they hope that I am wrong, and that this is not an instance have a greater sense of service than politicians, although, where one arm of the Government is not fully aware of in fairness, most politicians get into politics to serve what another arm might do. In reality, we have been society.However, these people seem to get into volunteering told that the PPA will give no organisation more than to serve humanity. 40% of what they received, although the Minister now These examples are just the tip of the iceberg and I indicates differently and I am pleased at that. am sure—I know—that other organisations do good What does the Department intend to do with the work as well. However, this is threatened by what could increase in funds? Under current budgetary plans, DFID’s happen to just 1% of the DFID budget. My colleague budget will rise from £7.8 billion to £11.5 billion over from Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Upper the next four to five years. Bann (David Simpson), raised the following matter in his intervention. VSO received 51% of its funding last year—less than a third of 1% of DFID’s budget in that Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I period—from DFID. Almost a decade ago, VSO received congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. 90% of its funding from that source, but this year it is He speaks about the increase in funding. Does he agree projected to fall to 48% and in five years it will be less that on occasion, resistance in the media or among than 40%. some sections of UK society about increases in overseas aid inevitably involves criticism about corruption? That The problem stems from that rainy afternoon, where is where there is resistance to overseas aid. The Government, I read in point 2 of the FAQs titled, “Proposal and and all of us, need to do everything possible to eliminate Logical Framework information”: the concept of corruption as it affects overseas aid. “Successful applicants cannot receive a PPA which is more than 40% of their annual income, averaged over the previous three years.” Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is correct in what That would be immediate from next April. he says about corruption. From my personal experience, I know and hope that the Government’s heart—like and from examples of tax raising, VSO in particular has that of every hon. and right hon. Member in this been effective in tackling corruption with very low Chamber—is in the right place, but do they realise what resources. The increase in teachers’ salaries in Cambodia a sudden swing of the axe could do? It could equate to a was about tackling corruption to ensure that students reduction of volunteers by 50% and reduce the number did not offer their teacher money to pass their exams. of beneficiaries—the 26 million who are affected, reached That was low-level corruption, but it is important that and touched by VSO programmes—to 12 million. In the idea and feeling of corruption is eradicated from a short, the cuts will not hurt VSO as much as they will society. hurt those who benefit from the help and aid. VSO will put a volunteer in the field for about £661 a Organisations such as One World Action and Progressio month; a consultant might cost up to £10,000. We have will be pushed to cut where it is administratively quickest aid programmes that can use money and provide a good and easiest. Cuts will be too quick and too deep; service with real value. During recent questions to DFID, transitional arrangements will be hard to make, if indeed a question was asked about the co-ordination between 81WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 82WH various NGOs and their advocacy departments. I went Mr MacNeil: Yes indeed—luxury. I had a reasonably directly to some of the NGOs and found an umbrella comfortable night, but if the fan had broken down and group called Bond—British Overseas NGOs for the electricity had gone I would have been in real Development. It ensures collaboration on various issues trouble. That goes to show that the experiences we have between the NGOs, so that each organisation works to had were similar to those of other volunteers. Apart its strengths and does not overlap. I say that to highlight from a fan and a mosquito net, VSO has not feather-bedded that such groups are a lot more sophisticated than they MPs at all. Perhaps other volunteers have experienced are credited as being, certainly during DFID questions far worse. last week. The reason that I make suggestions and raise the Why does the Department insist on cutting from issue is to help the Government pause and get it right. I budgets based on the average budgets of the past three am sure that they want to get it right, but this is not years? If the cuts arrive, will the Minister guarantee that about politics. Real people and real issues are at stake. the shortfall will be made up by other pockets and The organisation started 52 years ago in 1959 with a purses within DFID? It is arguable that cuts based on £9,000 grant. That is approximately £160,000 in today’s average budgets of the past three years will be too deep money. It has blossomed into a world leader in overseas and too fast. Although everybody has to find savings, voluntary aid. It was the progenitor of other great surely we can find a way to cut that does not threaten organisations such as the Peace Corps in the USA, our commitments to effectively spend 0.7% of gross which started in 1961 with a grant of £30 million. national income in overseas aid. Organisations such as I believe that we are lucky to have such organisations One World Action, VSO and Progressio are arguably working on our behalf and in our name, giving people among the best conduits for that aim. If the Government from this country an opportunity to help, and most are committed to spending 0.7% of GNI on overseas importantly, giving others a helping hand to make the aid while reducing the budget of UK-based agencies, world a better place. People do that without the need where will those funds be spent? Where does the for weapons or sanctions. They do it mainly from the Department want to direct those funds? Is it planning kindness of their heart and feel that the world could be for those funds to be directed to the World Bank, in the a better place if they contribute in some small way. way I think has been suggested? What I said about Their work should be supported at all levels and from consultant costs could be applicable to that. all facets of life. There is a fear—I hope only a fear as I am mindful of Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Like the what the Minister said—that organisations could see a hon. Gentleman, I have had the great advantage of reduction in income from DFID. However, those taking part in VSO’s parliamentarian scheme this year organisations are planning to go below the Government when I worked on a climate change project in Nigeria. I ceiling anyway over the next few years. I appeal to the take his point about the value of VSO. Does he agree Minister, who I know is a sensible and reasonable man, that VSO is almost the ultimate in the big society, with not to do any harm, but to do good work. I ask him to volunteers from across the world giving up their time crack canny with the pace, as they might say in Scotland, for the big global society? That means that every pound keep delivery in place and not endanger anything for spent on that organisation is such good value. the sake of 730 days, or two years, and to manage the transition in a careful, thoughtful way, without resorting at pace to the axe. Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady is absolutely spot on. It is about the big society and being aware of a bigger 9.49 am picture. It is about spending money effectively. One Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): I start by thing that struck me when I spent two or three weeks in thanking you, Mr Bone, for enabling me to make a Cambodia with VSO was that I was not put in an hotel; speech this morning rather than my being in the Chair. I I was not put anywhere plush or posh but I was camping know that that has been inconvenient for you, but it is in a room next door to the main VSO headquarters in very kind and much appreciated. Phnom Penh. No extra money was wasted. If I am honest, every penny seemed to be a prisoner with VSO, I congratulate the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan which means that it was being spent effectively in the an Iar (Mr MacNeil) on his good fortune in securing right ways and places. the debate. I suspect there will be some repetition this morning. My right hon. Friend the Minister will be aware that many hon. Members on both sides of the Jo Swinson: I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not House hugely appreciate the fact that, even at a time of mind me interrupting him once again, but I wondered austerity, the Government have found it possible not whether I could ask if he had the experience of having only to protect DFID’s budget, but to enhance it. That electricity in his accommodation. Although there was is not particularly fashionable electorally. We all have supposed to be electricity in the flat in which I stayed in constituents who say, “Why are you wasting that money Nigeria, the vagaries of the power companies meant over there when we ought to be spending it here?” that it did not work while I was there. That is one However, I think we all agree that it is a mark of a interesting way of cutting back on costs. civilised society that the relatively rich do their utmost to help the very poor. It is also money well spent in Mr MacNeil: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that. terms of international security and even business investment. I must have lived at the posh end of VSO, because I had We appreciate that. a mosquito net and a fan. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman talks about the need for society to consider people in Mr Gregory Campbell: Luxury. other countries, which is what we all look towards 83WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 84WH

[Jim Shannon] Hon. Members’ experiences overseas have been mentioned. I, too, had a mosquito net and a fan. My doing. I am sure that, before the election, he, like many fan was called Ed—Ed was a cockroach. Ed and I other hon. Members in the Chamber, was approached became great friends over my fortnight in Ghana. The by Christian Aid and other organisations regarding existence was basic and the funding was basic. I am told ensuring that the moneys needed overseas would continue that VSO volunteers generally receive no more than to be provided. I understand that the Government have £200 a month. Even in these days of austerity, most given a commitment to that. However, this debate is people in this building are accustomed to living on a about VSO—overseas volunteers. Clearly, they are part little more than that. The great thing about such a of society as well, and many people want to contribute scheme is that we get out of the city, out of the big and do something. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that hotel, into where the action really is and see life as it is, we must do more than, possibly, what the Government and perhaps make a modest contribution. are doing and go along with what the hon. Member for When I arrived in Ghana, I had the good fortune to Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) has proposed this be coming in on the back of an intake of 30 VSO morning? volunteers just in that one country. They were people from all walks of life. That needs to be underscored. Mr Gale: If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me for There is an impression that VSO is a gap-year experience a few moments, he will discover that we are not poles or an immediately postgraduate experience, when people apart. When I go on to talk about VSO, he will understand have the opportunity to volunteer before they take on that I think that a very good way of making a significant marriage, children and other responsibilities and can no and practical contribution. longer do that. That is patently not the case. Those 30 I need to declare two interests. First, I am a trustee of volunteers were people from all walks of life and various an organisation called the Society for the Protection of countries. Animals Abroad. SPANA is probably the leading charity I recall an oil engineer and his wife from Australia. worldwide in saving and caring for working animals. Within a fortnight, that couple had made a decision—he There are very significant parts of the world, and societies, had given up his job; they had let their house—and two where working animals are people’s livelihood. Following weeks after taking the decision, they were in Ghana, disasters such as floods, earthquakes and famine, if ready to go out to the west of the country to set up a those animals are allowed to die, people die, and I have communications system in the form of a very basic never seen any point—brutal though this may seem—in local newspaper. They were people in their mid to late saving a child’s life today only to see it die of starvation 50s. I recall the former head teacher of a special needs tomorrow. If we are to invest money well, we must school from the north of England who had taken early ensure that the long term and the mid-term are catered retirement to go to the north of Ghana to engage, not for, as well as the very short term. I mention that not surprisingly, in special needs education there. I recall a because SPANA receives money from the Government. relatively young civil servant from Leeds, who had given It does not; nor does it wish to. What it does want from up a secure, pensionable, well paid job to go out to that the Minister’s Department is greater recognition, a greater country to assist in the way she felt she could. opportunity to play its part in helping in places where There were young, middle-aged and quite elderly there is poverty and disaster and, if possible, a seat at people—I put myself in that category, I suppose—who the Disasters Emergency Committee table, because there were all trying to do the same thing. The point has been is no such representation in that body. I ask my right made, and we ought to underscore it, regarding the hon. Friend to take that thought away with him. present Government, that that is really the big society. My second interest to declare is that I am one of the That is the global big society. That is what it is all about. growing band of parliamentary graduates of the Voluntary That is what I believe the Prime Minister wants to Service Overseas scheme. The hon. Member for Na promote and what I know the Department would like to h-Eileanan an Iar is one such, and others are present. I promote. The beauty of it, and it really is a beauty, is know that my hon. Friend the Member for Southend not only that the people participating through VSO West (Mr Amess), if he is able to catch your eye, make a significant contribution—we flit in and out, but Mr Bone, will want to make an equivalent contribution. most of the people who do that make at least a two-year I had the good fortune to spend a fortnight in Ghana commitment and some carry on for much longer than in 2009 with the Ghana Federation of the Disabled. My that—but that when they come home, they become task was to seek to promote good governance within super-engaged in civic society here because of the the disability community in Ghana. That organisation experiences they have had overseas, because of the is facing considerable change internally, following the privation. Malaria has been mentioned. A young lady passing of laws designed to assist the disabled. It is a who had been in the north of Ghana came back to the moot point whether they will do so. As we all know, Mr flat I was staying in, with typhoid. Things are rough, Bone, passing laws is one thing; implementation is just but because of that, when the volunteers come home, as important. Part of the task was to prepare a paper they bring a huge amount back with them that then designed to offer a template for future work by other makes a significant contribution to our society. parliamentary colleagues and by the organisation itself, On the current financial situation, I stand to be and establishing relationships with Members of Parliament corrected, but I think I am right in saying that VSO on the all-party disability group basis that we understand receives roughly 51% of its funding from DFID—my here, but that Ghanaians have no experience of. As an miserable maths suggests to me that some 49% comes aside, I think it incredibly valuable for parliamentarians from elsewhere. I say to the Minister that if there is to to have the opportunity to go overseas to contribute, be a 40% cap, realistically that ought to be a 40% cap but also to learn. based on the income worldwide, because a huge 85WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 86WH contribution is made by industries, organisations and and social enterprises. Above all, we have a duty to people from around the globe. It would distort the show that we are getting value for money as Government picture a little, in terms of value for money, if the 40% spending is restrained to grow in line with inflation. cap were based solely on income in the United Kingdom. I am sure that none of us wants that to happen. I shall I will focus on apprenticeships abroad. When aid is explain why it is of such concern. well spent, it is hugely in our national interest. As was stated in the policy paper, “One World Conservatism”, Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is making an “well-spent aid has worked miracles: eliminating smallpox, almost excellent point. Does he agree that the £18 million, eradicating polio…helping get millions of children into school which I suggested was the value in the marketplace of and saving millions of families from hunger and disease.” the wages of people such as the oil engineer from the In the debate on global poverty on 1 July, I made the antipodes who gave up his time to work for VSO, point that the best form of aid is sharing expertise and should be part of that equation? know-how. Above all, there is no substitute for knowledge. Providing vocational skills and training, such as Mr Gale: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We apprenticeships, is one of the best ways in which we can are talking about 250,000 national volunteers spread help our neighbours overseas. over 20 countries. It is incredibly good value for money. We have heard, and I am sure will hear again, about the Hon. Members have spoken of their work for VSO. low costs. Many of them will have heard of Project Umubano in Rwanda, which I was privileged to go on over two VSO is hugely cognisant of the fact that we live in an summers to teach English. The people there are hungry age of austerity and is hellbent on cuttings its costs by not only for food and work, but for knowledge and up to 30%, as quickly as possible. That will not be easy. skills. VSO does a huge amount to share concrete, It is easy to say that one should cut head office costs practical skills. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy, and get the money to the front line. We all want to see with which I worked a few years ago in Uganda and the money being spent at the sharp end. However, in Tanzania through the Conservative party, shares technical organisations that require the preparation and paperwork knowledge and advice with democratic parties abroad. that are inevitable with visas and travel documents, and in looking after people, there has to be a head office Perhaps in future, DFID might sponsor aid apprentices operation. VSO has recognised that, as with any head through VSO on a kind of apprenticeship gap year. office operation, there must be room for savings. It will Businesses, too, might contribute through social do its best to ensure that all the money that DFID gives, responsibility initiatives, and help to build technical from whatever pocket of funds, is used to the best capacity overseas. When apprentices return home to the possible advantage. UK, they will have a proper qualification and will have gained valuable experience, which will help to boost our In conclusion, VSO gets huge bang for the buck. It is domestic economy. The gap year is a time-honoured immensely valuable, not only worldwide but back here institution. It boosts the confidence of young people in the United Kingdom. In so far as is possible, even at before they go to university or start work. Apprenticeship this time, the Department should do its utmost to gap years would channel young people’s raw energy and maintain the funding to ensure that current projects enthusiasm into aid projects, and give them structured and planned future projects are possible. training. We live in a multinational world. Working as an 10.1 am apprentice for DHL in Harlow is similar to working as Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I congratulate the an apprentice for that company in places such as Delhi, hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) Hong Kong and Beijing. If we offered a high-grade on securing this debate. I am pleased that BT broadband apprenticeship, perhaps a level 3 qualification, it would is working so well in the Hebrides. I always enjoy be as well regarded as doing an apprenticeship at home. watching his contributions from the other side of the The DFID accounts show that in 2009, we spent House and his remarks today were particularly thoughtful. £356 million on “innovative approaches to development”. The economic crisis and the £900 billion public debt That pot of money might be refocused. have made times hard. Charities and voluntary groups feel that pressure considerably. I welcome this debate Many of my constituents in Harlow earn less than because organisations such as Voluntary Service Overseas £200 a week. They ask why, at a time of cuts in public have transformed people’s lives. It is important that the spending, we plan to spend so much on foreign aid. House think of them as we try to bring public finances That is not an easy question to answer, other than with under control. the moral case. However, if we can show that we are giving young people opportunities that they would never We must acknowledge that there is some good news: otherwise have, giving them proper qualifications and, the Government are committed to spending 0.7% of on top of that, helping the poorest communities in the our national income on aid and the DFID budget will world, perhaps my constituents and the British people grow to nearly £10 billion a year by the end of this will welcome aid spending with open arms. A gap year Parliament. I welcome DFID’s plan to reform the aid apprenticeship scheme would be similar to the Government’s system to prioritise clean water and sanitation programmes, planned national citizen service. It might transform the and to give British taxpayers more transparency so that lives of young people, and give them jobs and opportunities. they can see where their money is going. I welcome the fact that the Government will cushion the impact of This is a matter not just of economic efficiency but of reductions in public spending through the £100 million social justice. We cannot help everyone, but we can look transition fund, which will be available to smaller charities for ways to increase what my hon. Friend the Member 87WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 88WH

[Robert Halfon] 34,000 students were queuing up, over a number of days, to get their certificates. I will never forget that. for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) recently called the Sadly, because of the economic circumstances not only gross world product, or GWP, which benefits everybody, in this country, Ireland and Greece but all over the including the United Kingdom. world, it will be difficult for those students to get jobs. As I have said, there are pots of money in DFID, Nevertheless, I congratulate each and every one of such as the spending on “innovative approaches to them. development”, that could be used to deliver this policy. During my 10-day volunteer period, I was tasked I hope the Minister will consider this idea and the with a number of objectives, all of which we achieved. I benefits it might bring to young people across the British was able to understand the depth and the extent of the isles and to our neighbours overseas. current issues and concerns of the Filipino nurses regarding the health challenges faced in the Philippines. I was able 10.8 am to acknowledge the unique skills that Filipino nurses bring to their work, thus making them a much-cherished Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I congratulate asset in the health care delivery system—as far as the the hon. Gentleman who introduced the debate; I will Philippines is concerned, one of its greatest gifts is the not attempt to pronounce the name of his constituency. people themselves. I always say to one or two grumpy He covered the arguments extremely well, and there is constituents, “A smile doesn’t cost anything”, and yet it little that I can add. I will not get too involved in the lifts spirits—it is certainly a great gift of people from argument about funding, given the Minister’s intervention the Philippines. in which he suggested that it will all be fixed and that there is nothing to worry about. We will have to read Another task I was given was to assist the Philippine Hansard carefully and reflect on the possibilities for Nurses Association in soliciting commitments and concrete VSO. action from the Philippine Government and the agencies. We argued the case for the placement of a nurse consultant My being here is entirely the responsibility of my position in the Department of Health, and we were able hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale), to meet everyone except the President of the Philippines, but I do not regret it. He told a wonderful project although the newly appointed Secretary of Health seemed manager at VSO, Elizabeth Goodwin, that I was just distracted by the Miss Universe contest, which was the right sort of person to take part in her scheme. Like going on at the time, and by an urgent message that my hon. Friend, I declare an interest that is listed in the dengue had broken out in one of the villages. However, Register of Members’ Financial Interests. The trip that I think he understood the message that Filipino nurses I experienced this year was funded by VSO. needed recognition and a consultant position. To outdo colleagues, I concur that the living conditions were austere. I think that I had electricity—at least, I We were also tasked with ensuring that Filipino nurses could see what I was doing—but there was no hot water. were provided with humane working conditions and I ended up having to dangle some contraption in water. properly reimbursed for their dedication and excellent Initially, I thought it was a conspiracy to get me to skills. We argued for the creation of more jobs for electrocute myself, but I survived that prospect. There nurses in the country, especially in rural areas, where was also what appeared to be a tarantula that was keen, health services are in dire need. every evening, to get into bed with me, although I was I was born in the east end of London, so I do not somewhat reluctant to share my bed. There were other need anyone to lecture me about poverty in the UK, sorts of insects, which “I’m a Celebrity…Get Me Out of although I did not feel as a child that I was being Here!” would be keen to have on board as a test. brought up in poor conditions. However, we are all In my early years as a Member of Parliament, in the extremely wealthy in this country compared with the ’80s, I went to the Philippines through the Inter- circumstances abroad. When one goes to the north of Parliamentary Union. The trip was well organised and I the Philippines, one can see how difficult life is. We went thoroughly enjoyed it. I suppose that as a result of that to Ifugao and climbed the rice terraces—I was in one of trip I fell in love with the country. Indeed, when President the two teams and I am delighted to report to the House Fidel Ramos visited this country, I had the privilege of that we did it four times more quickly than team A, taking him on a tour of this place, and I kept in contact which was supposed to be full of professionals. It was a with him. Therefore, when Elizabeth Goodwin gave me wonderful experience, but we also visited what they the list of possible countries for me to visit, and one of called a health care centre there. We saw a lady who was them was the Philippines, I immediately said yes. waiting to deliver a baby—she had been in labour for We in this country now know the Philippines far about three hours—and the process of getting her to better than was the case in the ’80s, because many of this particular health care situation on a stretcher was our care homes and hospitals benefit from the wonderful unbelievable. If any colleagues feel hard done by, they care of Filipino nurses. I was told that my job was to should take advantage of one of the opportunities support the Filipino nurses. I was somewhat bemused presented by VSO to see how tough life is for some about how I was to support them but, simply put, I was people. told that my arrival would mean that doors would be Another task was to ensure the implementation of opened. That is what I was charged with. existing laws for nurses’ welfare. We argued for the I stayed in the residence of the Philippine Nurses implementation of the Nursing Act 2002 and the Magna Association, which was right next to a large church that Carta of Public Health Workers. We argued for an seemed to be worshipping 24 hours a day. Two days increase in the health budget—we visited the Senate and before I left, Filipino students were collecting their the Congress, and even lobbied Imelda Marcos and a certificates from the college next to where I was staying— number of other politicians in the Philippines. 89WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 90WH

We also argued for ethical recruitment policies when systems, and helping to shape strategies for partners—makes hiring Filipino nurses to work abroad. I am delighted to the money that countries receive work even harder. As a say that, when we visited our embassy in the Philippines, result of VSO volunteer efforts, partners can work out we were very impressed with how it was staffed—it was how funding can be spent more effectively, as well as well run and there was a Filipino lady in charge of evaluating its impact, accounting for money flows and processing the work permits. However, a great concern— reporting back appropriately to donors. The 2010 external something I have raised with other Departments—was evaluation report on this work said: some unscrupulous companies in this country, which “Donors recognise that community-based organisations who solicit money from Filipino students to get them to this have benefited from VSO support have more robust plans, structures country under a student visa programme, while misleading and systems”. them by giving the impression that they can convert The presence of volunteers therefore acts positively to their student status into a permanent job here. Given support financial aid, and volunteers are value for how tough it is to seek any sort of living wage in the money. Philippines, such companies in the United Kingdom should be ashamed of themselves. I hope that the Obviously, all parliamentarians will say that they are Department I am in touch with will eventually name in favour of VSO, which is a wonderful scheme. All and shame them. Hopefully, our embassy is dealing parliamentarians understand that these are tough times with that serious situation. for the economy, but I for one am delighted that we have had this debate, and I am pleased that we already I was able to share experiences in advocacy and appear to have had a positive response. lobbying with key Philippine Nurses Association leaders through a forum and seminar that I addressed. I also feel that I was able to strengthen the positive image of 10.22 am Filipino nurses. We know that the chaps work on ships Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): As ever, it is throughout the world, but Filipino nurses are also a a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. great gift as far as the Philippines is concerned. I congratulate the hon. Member for—I will try to say In conclusion, I felt that VSO had made a real impact it—Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) on securing a in the Philippines, at least with the project I was introduced debate on what is undoubtedly an important issue. I am to. VSO Bahaginan is well organised and an efficient glad that the Minister has expressed his willingness to operation. It has made a tremendous impact, as far as I listen and perhaps to find an innovative solution. There am concerned. VSO chooses its partners carefully, to is general agreement that all organisations—even those ensure that they are in a position to make a difference in working in the international development sphere—need their country and able to benefit from the capacity to spend money more efficiently and to reduce their building and skills support that volunteers and learning reliance on public funds, but it is important that that exchange programmes offer. VSO has long-standing transition should be managed in a way that does not relationships with its partners, and a sudden drop in unduly damage the great projects that organisations are funding, without due planning for withdrawal, would running abroad. lead to a severe reduction in the working relationship. Hopefully, that will not happen. I would like to share the experiences that I had this summer, and I draw Members’ attention to my declaration VSO Bahaginan is a volunteer sending organisation. in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. As I The profile of VSO volunteers has changed dramatically said, I undertook a VSO placement in Nigeria. There is since the VSO began. Now, 30% of the volunteers are a level of competition about the various bugs that from southern countries—professional Filipinos volunteer Members have had to put up with. The hon. Member in VSO’s programmes worldwide, then return to the for North Thanet (Mr Gale) had Ed the cockroach, Philippines with increased self-confidence. while the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess) had the tarantula that was keen to get into his bed. I am Mr MacNeil: When I was in Cambodia, we benefited thankful that I did not experience cockroaches or tarantulas, round the table from the work of Filipino nurses, who and that was down to the gecko that lived in my were volunteering to help deal with the situation there. bedroom. I think that it was eating everything else, so They took their expertise from the Philippines to help I am quite pleased that my cute little gecko was there. people somewhere else, which was a very heartening I worked alongside the International Centre for Energy, aspect of VSO. Help was going not just from the Environment and Development, which does essential developed world to the developing world, but between work, particularly on climate change. One thing about countries in the developing world. going to other countries is that we find out things that we had no clue about before. For example, the third Mr Amess: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his biggest killer in Nigeria after malaria and tuberculosis contribution, which reinforces just how valuable this is poisoning by fumes from cooking stoves, which kills scheme is to a nation. Furthermore, the pattern that I 79,000 people every year. Never in a month of Sundays mentioned is repeated for southern volunteers from would it have crossed my mind that that would be such India, Sri Lanka, Kenya and Uganda, to name just a a huge problem. One of ICEED’s projects involves few. improving the efficiency of cooking stoves, which obviously VSO volunteers also make other aid more effective. has a health benefit. However, it also has a massive Many of our partners received direct funding from the benefit in terms of climate change and emissions. Department for International Development, other donor Furthermore, if stoves are more efficient, the amount of Governments and international organisations. VSO deforestation can also be reduced. In a country where volunteers’ capacity-building work—transferring skills, most cooking is still done on a stove, that makes a big improving financial and human resources and management difference. 91WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 92WH

[Jo Swinson] visit. At ICEED, I worked alongside the volunteer Emily Bullock from the UK, who has a lot of experience The VSO office in Abuja, where I was, had projects in renewables. on education and HIV, but I was working very much on I went down to the market to buy food and met a the climate change projects, as I said. For a country young lady called Chizoba, who was a tailor. She has such as Nigeria, climate change is an absolutely vital worked hard to get her skills and to buy a little sewing issue. The north is already experiencing the impact of machine, which she sets up in a corner of the market. increased desertification and a reduction, therefore, in She wants to build a business and, ultimately, to rent agricultural effectiveness. In the south, one just needs to her own little shop in the market—I say shop almost in look at a map to see that the former capital, Lagos, with inverted commas, because these things are in the open its 38 million people, is very vulnerable to any sea level air, where it is very busy. Dickson the driver was trying rise. For such a densely populated city, that is obviously to save up the money to go to college to get his education. a great concern. Furthermore, the country is blessed Meeting real Nigerians and being able to understand with massive energy reserves, but it has frequent blackouts. their lives was a huge benefit. It also has no proper gas network, so when the oil is extracted, the gas is flared. There are therefore many Taking part in the VSO parliamentarian scheme gave challenges in tackling the important problem of climate me a window, in a short time, through which to see the change. great value that organisations such as VSO provide. The project I was involved in worked with a network That value is not only in the projects in the countries of climate change organisations that was trying to pass that receive volunteer support. There is also great value a Bill. The Bill is somewhat similar to our Climate for the volunteers, because of the skills and experiences Change Act 2008 and would set up a commission on in relation to life abroad that they bring back to this climate change to provide cross-departmental expert country. advice to the Government. That would perhaps be done Volunteering raises awareness that most people in the with a little more force than has been the case under the world do not have the home comforts, which we are all Ministry of Environment on its own. Although the Bill used to, of inside toilets, clean hot running water and had been through both Houses of Parliament, the problem electricity that continues throughout the day. It is easy, was that it needed to be harmonised, much like when we in our cocooned lifestyles, to think that life is the same have ping-pong in this Parliament, and then signed off everywhere, but that is not true. I hope that the Minister by the President. A very real deadline is approaching in will be positive, and that some innovative solutions can April, when elections will take place. If the Bill is not be found to the funding concerns of VSO. I am delighted signed into law by then, the whole thing will fall, and to have taken part in the debate. the process will have to start again from scratch. I was giving advocacy and lobbying advice to the Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): I thank Back-Bench network of organisations involved. I ran a workshop to Members for keeping their comments relatively brief, share some of the experience that we have had in this which meant that they could all contribute. country of campaigning on issues such as climate change. I am pleased to report that since my visit in September, the Bill has been harmonised. The final hurdle involves 10.30 am getting the President to sign it off, and I hope that some of my suggestions to the youth organisations involved Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ about a Facebook campaign—President Goodluck Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Jonathan is indeed on Facebook—might help to raise Mr Bone—I think it is the first time I have done so. I the issue up the agenda as the elections approach. congratulate the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar When I was in Nigeria, I was also able to see examples (Mr MacNeil) on securing the debate and giving us the of best practice. Often, we in western countries think opportunity to hear from several hon. Members about that we know best, and we go out and preach to people their experience of volunteering. That has been extremely in other countries about what they should do. I was interesting and helpful in showing some of the advantages keen not to do that on my visit, so I did some research and benefits that volunteers and host communities get as preparation before I went and arranged to visit Cross from volunteering. River state, which has 60% of Nigeria’s forests. As Hon. Members painted a series of pictures of their Members will know, deforestation is a major factor in life as a volunteer, each one more gruesome than the climate change. last. Perhaps we should be grateful that everyone survived In 2008, the state’s forward-thinking governor, Governor their experiences; but I found the speeches very useful— Imoke, introduced a moratorium on logging for two particularly the suggestions made by the hon. Members years while a UN process was put in place to decide how for North Thanet (Mr Gale) and for Harlow (Robert to bring in money for the forest, other than through Halfon) about positive further action that might be deforestation. Those moves have been incredibly successful, taken. I am sure that the Minister will respond to those and they are important for the unique habitat in the points. I was also struck by the work done by the hon. forests. I was able to meet the governor and to give some Members for Southend West (Mr Amess) and for East support to his work. Furthermore, Odigha Odigha, Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) in relation to volunteering who has a long track record on campaigning to protect abroad. Both seemed to have spent quite a bit of time the lifestyle in the forest, has been put in charge of the working on advocacy, communication and policy, which forestry commission. shows that work done by NGOs in that area, both Experience outside the project is another of the real overseas and in the UK, is very important. Sometimes benefits of VSO, because we get to see the true country people criticise the advocacy and communications work in a way that does not happen on a normal parliamentary of those organisations, and clearly it should be only 93WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 94WH a small part of their overall work, but it is also an number of years. One programme, which, I understand, important part of it, and we have seen the benefit of it faces the end of its DFID funding, is VSO work with in what hon. Members have told us today. diaspora communities in the UK to allow them to The background to any discussion of DFID budgets develop links with their countries of birth or heritage. is of course different from the current discussions in The current programme, which I understand finishes in relation to most Government Departments, because May 2011, was funded under a scheme that will not DFID is not suffering the large cuts being imposed on continue after 2011. I understand that VSO has been most other Departments. That is as a result of the told it could apply for funding from the global poverty commitment by the coalition, continuing the commitment action fund, but it will not be able to do that if it also of the Labour Government, to reach the target of gets money under the PPA fund, which is its main spending 0.7% of gross national income on overseas source of funding. I hope the Minister will comment on aid. Of course we have questions about how the that, today or later. Government will get to that target, and concerns about Inevitably there is much agreement on both sides of the freeze for the next couple of years; but the Government the House in a debate such as this, which reflects the know that we are fully behind the commitment to the recognition of the good work done by volunteers and overall target. The Minister and his colleagues will find organisations such as VSO. I welcome what the Minister that we support him in his commitment to it, even if said about considering other sources of funding to sometimes those sitting behind him in his own party assist VSO, in particular, with its concerns and fears, may be more lukewarm. and I hope he can answer today the questions raised in There will of course be a debate about how DFID the debate. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar money will be spent under a new Government. Some told us that the monetary value of the work done in programmes will change. The Government are perfectly developing countries through volunteering is £80 million entitled to have such a review and debate. However, it is a year; but, because of its knock-on effects—the multiplier important that any review should not threaten the viability effects and the funding that can be obtained locally for of existing, valuable programmes by organisations such volunteering work that is also done locally, and the as VSO. Nor should there be prolonged uncertainty long-term benefits—even that £80 million a year proves during the review. I reiterate the concerns expressed by its value many times over. The Government should several hon. Members today about future funding for consider that when they make decisions about future VSO. The point has been made that VSO does not funding of VSO and similar organisations that do valuable object in principle to the objective of diversifying funding; work overseas. but it is concerned—as are many other organisations—that the reduction to a share as low as 40% coming from the 10.38 am Government could have a negative effect on its work and, consequently, on already poor communities. The Minister of State, Department for International I welcome what the Minister has said about other Development (Mr Alan Duncan): I thank the hon. Member [Laughter.] possible sources of funding being available to organisations for Western Isles— I have copped out—for that currently get funding through partnership programme initiating the debate, which is particularly poignant in arrangements, but some of the other funding sources the light of the recent death of Linda Norgrove in also have a 40% cap. There would not be any benefit in Afghanistan, who came from the hon. Gentleman’s having to move from one scheme with a 40% cap to constituency. We have people like Linda in mind when another one with a 40% cap. I hope the Minister will we approach this debate. listen to today’s comments, and consider the suggestions I welcome the opportunity to address the issue of that have been made by VSO for a transitional arrangement international development and the important contribution that would allow minimisation of the negative consequences that can be made by the voluntary sector. I assure hon. of the 40% cap on PPA for the relevant organisations’ Members that the coalition Government are certainly good work. not reducing the budget for the work of the voluntary Volunteering overseas can and should, in good sector overseas. Indeed, as will be seen, we have set out programmes like those run by VSO, maximise beneficial our plans for increasing support to the most effective long-term effects on local development efforts by the voluntary organisations. Over the years, Britain has way in which it builds the skills and capacity of local established a global reputation for its work on international communities. As hon. Members have said, that is a development, as a result of the work of successive UK crucial aspect of volunteering. The benefit is not just Governments and the contributions from civil society, the effect of two, three or four weeks, months or years the private sector and UK citizens. of volunteer work. Host communities gain long-term benefits from volunteers’ work. There is no doubt that Mr MacNeil rose— the presence of volunteers is welcomed by the host countries. Also, there is little doubt that when volunteers Mr Duncan: Is the hon. Gentleman going to give me return to the UK they have a greater understanding and a pronunciation lesson? appreciation of the issues that developing countries face. Hon. Members’ speeches made that clear. Mr MacNeil: I shall not say Na h-Eileanan an Iar Volunteering programmes from the UK can also again. What the Minister said sounded very welcome provide an opportunity for members of the diaspora on first hearing. Is he guaranteeing that VSO organisations communities in the UK—from south Asia, Africa and that believe their funding will be cut will not suffer a elsewhere—to develop or indeed re-forge their links sudden drop in their funding but will be able to continue with their countries of birth or heritage. That is another on their expected path—that come this April, the axe area of work in which VSO has been involved for a will not be falling? 95WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 96WH

Mr Duncan: I shall come to that point more specifically maintaining the capacity and space for an active civil in a moment. In short, the answer is that I am not going society; it is part of our overall approach to international to guarantee that individual organisations will have all development. their funding guaranteed in perpetuity. The whole point Members will be aware that an important part of the of what the Department is doing is to establish value for UK voluntary sector’s work overseas includes the special money, but I shall come to those arguments later. contribution of international volunteering organisations. Such organisations make a valuable contribution by Mr MacNeil: Our argument is not for funding in offering UK citizens and others a unique opportunity perpetuity, but for managed funding transitions and to make a practical difference to poor people’s lives in changes. We do not want a sudden drop in April. We developing countries by sharing their skills, their knowledge want organisations to be able to manage the changes and their commitment. I pay special tribute to former that are already projected, with spending being limited volunteers who have returned to the UK from their to below 40% in the next three to four years. I ask the overseas assignments and are putting their knowledge, Minister to take that on board, and to ensure that skills and learning to good use in their local communities. the good work that we heard about from all Members is Some, it seems, are in the Chamber doing just that. not threatened in any way. That is a really serious point. The House will be aware that in October the Prime Minister announced a new scheme to support international Mr Duncan: I fully understand the hon. Gentleman’s volunteering. The international citizen service will give argument. I shall deal with it later in more detail, but we thousands of young adults in the UK the opportunity believe that there are additional components in any to join the fight against poverty by volunteering in organisation’s potential funding that will allow flexibility developing countries. Volunteering is a powerful way to and additional funding on top of the core funding. experience other cultures, and it allows the returned That could—although it is not necessarily guaranteed— volunteers to broaden the UK’s public understanding sustain the level of funding that they hope for. of global poverty. The Department for International Development funds The House will be aware that, despite the difficult voluntary organisations in many ways. More than 50% economic challenges, the coalition Government have of the support provided by DFID to civil society publicly stated that we will not balance the books on the organisations is made through DFID’s country offices. backs of the world’s poor. We have protected the aid The remainder is provided from central funds. I shall budget, and made a firm commitment to achieving the come to these shortly. In 2009-10, DFID provided aid target of 0.7% of gross national income from 2013. £362 million to UK civil society organisations to assist The Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Secretary in poverty reduction overseas. That was equivalent to of State for International Development have shown roughly 9% of UK bilateral assistance. Additionally, tremendous courage and leadership at a time when DFID provides support to many local voluntary many were calling for reductions in the UK’s aid budget. organisations in those countries where the UK has a Tackling poverty is not only a moral imperative; it is presence. The UK also supports voluntary organisations in Britain’s self-interest. Well spent UK aid is one of the indirectly, through contributions to the United Nations, best investments we can make. Not only does it enable the European Commission and other multilateral poor people to improve their lives, but it is good for our organisations. economy, our environment, our safety and our future. Through those investments, we have been able to Quite simply, it is tremendous value for money. Our achieve significant results. With DFID support, Care vision is simple. It is to make life better for the poorest UK is working with the private sector in India to in the poorest countries. provide affordable micro-insurance to 210,000 families There is clear evidence that aid works. Over the past in disaster-affected communities; the Gender Links 25 years, we have seen 500 million fewer people living in programme in Malawi has contributed to an increase in poverty despite the rapid growth in the world’s population. women’s representation in its Parliament from 14% to In 2007-08, UK Aid trained more than 100,000 teachers, 22% in the May 2009 national elections; and WaterAid vaccinated 3 million children against measles and supplied is helping 1 million people gain access to clean water just short of 7 million anti-malaria bed nets. However, and sanitation in Asia and Africa. These are significant we should not underestimate the scale of the challenges results, and the UK can and should take pride in them. that we face. Some 25,000 children die every day from The coalition Government are strongly committed to easily preventable and treatable diseases; and 1.4 billion supporting effective civil society organisations. The House people still live on less than $1.25 a day, more than two will be aware that DFID is providing support to civil thirds of them being women and girls. Those factors, as society organisations over the next three years through well as new challenges such as climate change, mean its PPAs, or programme partnership arrangements. that we need to maintain and strengthen our efforts. I recognise the valuable contribution made by Mr MacNeil: Will the Minister give way? international voluntary organisations, many of which are effective in tackling poverty and promoting growth. Mr Duncan: I am just coming to the nitty-gritty, but They deliver services to improve the lives of poor and I shall allow the hon. Gentleman one more stab before marginalised people, often in places that official donors getting stuck into the detail. do not reach. They enable citizens to be more effective participants in decisions that affect their lives. They Mr MacNeil: Aid works—as the Minister said, fewer hold Governments and others to account, and they are in poverty, and he gave a list of impressive statistics. assist public engagement in development. It is for those However, I have to say that I am not as heartened as I reasons that the UK places importance on building and was when he intervened on me. Will he work to ensure 97WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 98WH that there is a manageable and careful transition—the international citizen service, so there is scope for a very £26 million being reduced to £12 million—without positive outcome regarding the objectives set by my damaging any of the good work? hon. Friend. I say this with open hands: I do not want the Minister My hon. Friend the Member for Southend West to find himself painted into a corner. I am sure he is not (Mr Amess) asked how we can support volunteer trying to do that. I ask for the flexibility of approach organisations. Let me outline again the components of that will enable this good work to remain intact. That is our support. We offer support through PPAs; through really important. I know he might not feel able to give a in-country funds, which have significant scope for full commitment this morning, but he might want to supplementing anything that emerges out of the capped give himself wriggle room to make the transition 40% of a PPA; through challenge funds, which can do manageable. It is most important, but it is above politics. the same, and now we also have both the global poverty action fund and the international citizen service. So Mr Duncan: There is plenty of scope in the way the there are many routes through which the total picture of system works to give the hon. Gentleman a solid degree a volunteering organisation’s funding can be pieced of reassurance and the comfort he seeks. I shall explain together. the components of the system; it might lead him to feel he has had that reassurance. Mr MacNeil rose— I start with the programme partnership arrangements, the crux of our funding debate. They provide flexible Mr Duncan: I will give way one more time in a funding. That is the key. A flexible contract emerges moment. from the PPAs for those partners that get a three-year The key for the coalition, at a time when we are under funding deal. The PPAs provide funding for some of the enhanced scrutiny of the way we spend our development best-performing organisations, and they are highly money, as my hon. Friend the Member for North competitive. We also want to ensure that voluntary Thanet rightly said, is that we must look for quality and organisations do not become dependent on DFID funds. value for money in everything we do. We also need to That is a key part of the argument. That is why, in the enhance the process by which we do that—hence, the next round of PPA funding that begins in 2011, DFID various components I have just outlined—and not just will provide funding to a maximum of 40% of an offer a lump sum of funding through a PPA. organisation’s annual income. That is what we have been discussing this morning. Mr MacNeil: One point I want to draw to his attention Our commitment to supporting voluntary organisations is that I fear that organisations that are holding PPA extends far beyond the PPAs. In October, the Government money are unable to apply for or access other pots of launched a new £40 million a year global poverty action money from DFID. I am not certain whether the Minister fund, and projects will be selected on the basis of is saying today that they will now be able to do that, or demonstrable impact on poverty, the clarity of their that other organisations might come in. However, the outcomes and the value for money they offer. difficulty is that we have this transition phase; the Let me respond to some of the contributions made organisations are planning for that change anyway, but this morning, which will add further detail to our it is just the speed of the change that is a concern. It is in discussion. We have covered—if not wholly to the April—or two or three years from next April—that the satisfaction of the Member for Western Isles—the shortfall change is due, and I ask him to allow some latitude to point. ensure that it is a managed and not a brutal change. My hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet asked if the 40% threshold should apply to an organisation’s Mr Duncan: I would wholly agree with the hon. global income. We have to look at the audited accounts Gentleman if there were to be a sudden cut with no of any such organisation. Looking at global income alternative funding stream or transitional source, but compared with UK-only income, we see that UK-only that is not the picture. Yes, there will be a cap of 40% on income is the major component of British voluntary the underlying three-year agreement, but I have just organisations’ income. For instance, for VSO in the year outlined three, four, even five different channels that an 2009-10, the UK-only income was about £50 million organisation, if it can show value for money, can readily and the global income was about £60 million. So, yes, use to supplement what he describes as a “shortfall”. my hon. Friend’s suggestion would make a difference, For example, if we take an organisation that might but the difference between global income and UK-only have, through its PPA, 50% of its annual income paid income is not so huge that it is—let us say—a multiple for by DFID, and that figure goes down to 40%, it is not of the amount of money that would otherwise emerge beyond possibility that that 10% difference can once from a PPA. again be made up from the alternative funding sources My hon. Friend also asked if his charity, or the likes I have outlined. of it, could be represented on the Disasters Emergency Committee. DEC is not in the gift of DFID. It is a Mark Lazarowicz rose— voluntary alliance of the UK’s biggest charities and is designed to co-ordinate urgent action in response to Mr Duncan: I will say something else, if I may, and any large-scale disaster. So, membership of DEC is then see whether the hon. Gentleman still wants to more about scale and urgent response than anything intervene. He himself asked whether other funding schemes else. have a 40% cap. The 40% figure applies only to PPAs My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert because a PPA provides far more flexible funding than Halfon) asked whether we could support overseas project-based funding does, and that is why the regime apprenticeships. That is why we are supporting the new is designed to be different. 99WH Overseas Voluntary Sector24 NOVEMBER 2010 Overseas Voluntary Sector 100WH

Mark Lazarowicz: I am grateful to the Minister for Secretary of State for International Development is giving way. Can we have some clarity, either in today’s setting up a specific, bespoke private sector section debate or afterwards, regarding the ability of organisations within DFID, to ensure that the private sector can be a that qualify for PPA funding to get other types of real engine for development in the years ahead. support as well? I have been briefed that one of the In today’s difficult fiscal landscape, the increased schemes that VSO might otherwise have been able to funding that DFID is making available imposes a double gain support for from the global poverty action fund duty to ensure that every pound of taxpayers’ money is will not be able to gain such support because VSO holds well spent and can demonstrate real value for money. a PPA with the Department. Is the Minister saying that We cannot maintain support for a growing aid budget in fact, organisations can have a PPA and also receive unless we can offer the British public independently funding from some of the other sources he has outlined? verified evidence that funds are being well spent and achieving practical results. That is why the coalition Mr Duncan: I cannot say whether that is true in all Government have established the independent commission cases; I do not want to mislead the hon. Gentleman by on aid impact, and why we are seeking value for money saying for certain that it is true in all cases. However, in in every review we conduct and decision we make. many if not most cases, I believe it to be true. I undertake Earlier this year, the Secretary of State announced to write to him with a clear explanation of how the that DFID was undertaking comprehensive reviews of system works in detail, which is one of the advantages the UK’s bilateral aid, multilateral assistance and of having a debate such as this in Westminster Hall. humanitarian and emergency support. Those reviews aim to ensure that UK aid focuses on the areas where Robert Halfon: Will my right hon. Friend the Minister we can have most impact and deliver maximum results give way? and maximum value for money. We are also working to ensure maximum value for money from our support to Mr Duncan: I will give way for the final time, because voluntary organisations. That will mean higher levels of I only have two or three minutes left. competition. Many British organisations are doing a brilliant job Robert Halfon: I thank my right hon. Friend for in tackling poverty. We will continue to support those giving way and for his remarks on the international excellent organisations, and through greater competition citizen service. However, will he give real incentives to we will ensure that every pound of taxpayers’ money is companies, particularly multinational companies, to ensure well spent and produces top quality results. that the service offers real apprenticeships for people to work overseas in the countries we have discussed? Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. Thank you for that splendid debate. As the hon. Gentleman who has Mr Duncan: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for secured the next debate is here in advance, and as I raising that point, because one of the important thrusts believe that the Minister is doing a “double-act” this of DFID under the coalition Government is that we morning— want far greater engagement from the private sector, both in the delivery of development and in the likes of Mr Duncan: I certainly am. the apprenticeship scheme he is describing. So, the answer is yes—that is exactly the direction in which we Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Therefore, we will move want to go. That is why my right hon. Friend the on to the next debate. 101WH 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Lesotho 102WH

Lesotho something beautiful. The products are made in Lesotho, but the country’s ability to export those products to the rest of the world is limited. 10.58 am There are pressures. Unemployment is high—rates of Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Bone. It more than 40% are not unusual—and at present the is a real privilege to appear before you in your elevated country does not have the capacity to support a vibrant status; I think that this is my first time. I also thank you private sector. Little professional support exists for very much indeed for giving me that extra two minutes. business. In advance of this debate, I received an interesting I am sure that the extra time will serve me, the Minister report from the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and indeed the people of Lesotho very well. and Accountancy about work that it is doing to develop Lesotho is an extraordinary African country. It is expertise and support for business in Lesotho. I commend surrounded by South Africa, whose influence there that work. I think that the report is in draft, but it will is substantial, indeed crucial. Along with the UK alone, be available shortly. Such support for business, and the Lesotho has the dubious honour of having hereditary development of a private sector that provides work and the ability to export, is important for the future of peers in its legislature. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] I gather that that “Hear, hear” is support for the Lesotho. maintenance of hereditary peers by the Tory-Lib Dem alliance that is currently running the country, and I will Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I congratulate the note that accordingly. hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on the links Lesotho has a population of about 1.8 million people between Wales and Lesotho. It is important to make the and its terrain is mountainous, with less than 10% of its point that the Welsh contribution has been significant. land being suitable for cultivation. Unlike many African On economic development, does he agree that the priority countries, it is very green and I think that its biggest given by Dolen Cymru to educational links is a long-term export is water. If that sounds vaguely familiar, it may strategy for securing economic growth? be that some friends of Lesotho see those characteristics Yes, there are short-term things that should be done, of the country as being similar to those of Wales, for but in terms of educating a work force who can compete which I am proud to be one of the Members of Parliament. internationally, forming links between 130 schools in In the 1980s, those common characteristics led Wales Wales and Lesotho is a step in the right direction. It is a to be twinned with Lesotho. The relationship has grown good example of long-term planning in aid projects since then, and a strong bond has developed between between this country and Lesotho. the two countries. An organisation called Dolen Cymru, the Wales Lesotho Link, has worked hard over many Ian Lucas: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. years to develop that bond, and initiatives across Wales, The introduction of free primary education in Lesotho funded by the Department for International Development is having a massive positive impact. I will say a few and the Welsh Assembly Government, have created words about the thirst of people in Lesotho for education. joint working to confront the issues of our time: primary They see it as a way to progress within their lives, education, health—especially AIDS—and sustainable become teachers or entrepreneurs and develop the skills economic development. that they need to take their country forward. It is such a Lesotho’s schools are a credit to the country. If recent innovation—it has only happened within the anyone here has the chance to visit Lesotho, as I had the past decade—that many lives previously did not reach privilege of doing in 2006, they will see schools packed their full potential. full of individuals who want to learn and get on. Free People in Lesotho understand the importance of primary education is a recent innovation, so Lesotho education, and it is valued in their schools. Both teachers has some of the oldest primary school children one is and pupils are enthusiastic about education and its likely to meet. Secondary education is keenly sought transformative power. I wish we saw that more often in after, although unfortunately many of those who seek it some UK classrooms; I never heard a pupil in Lesotho do not have the means to advance themselves by that say to me, “I’m bored.” I would love never to hear such route. a comment in the United Kingdom. Lesotho also faces many health challenges. It has the The hon. Gentleman mentioned the links between planet’s third highest rate of HIV infection. Some 23.2% schools in Wales and in Lesotho. I commend the of the population between 15 and 49 are infected: 26% Department for International Development for focusing of women and 19% of men. Due to economic pressures, over many years on global schools partnerships, which those infected are often unable to travel to seek the have been positive as far as Wales is concerned. I health and medical care that they need, even when that particularly commend the fact that the partnerships care is available. require commitment from UK schools to work with Lesotho’s economy is another challenge. The country schools in developing countries, so that they can learn is striving to move away from being a subsistence economy from each other. What I have seen in the Wrexham to being a modern diverse economy, but it is a struggle. schools involved in the project is a strong sense that not The world recession has had a major economic impact only is Lesotho learning from us, but we are learning on developed nations, but nations seeking to develop from Lesotho. have been hit even harder. Textile subsidies that helped That is an important part of the process of developing Lesotho export, particularly to the United States, have the global schools partnerships; the schools are working ended, which has had a major impact on the country, together. Countries at completely different stages of which makes wonderful wool products and marvellous development are engaging and working together to tapestries, if anyone would like to adorn their walls with confront the problems of developing countries and the 103WH Lesotho24 NOVEMBER 2010 Lesotho 104WH

[Ian Lucas] recently visited Wales and went to a school in Penley to see the development of the global schools initiative. She developed world, and that engagement creates a much saw how well that project is progressing and how much stronger understanding of what developing countries’ benefit both countries are securing from it. problems are. If we are to have a partnership, it is crucial that the That understanding is transmitted not just between Government do not withdraw from activity in Lesotho staff but between the pupils who are fortunate enough and that they retain their presence there. We need to to visit the others’ country. Perhaps I should declare a have a presence to facilitate the involvement of more sort of interest: my wife is a schoolteacher just outside private sector and non-governmental organisations, because my constituency, in Clwyd South, which recently had a the need in Lesotho is massive. I have already referred visit from some schools in Lesotho. That link has developed to the rate of AIDS infection within the country. That is over three years. It has added hugely to the understanding a major problem with which Lesotho has to cope in a of those in the senior school, as well as those in the two way that few other countries do. That issue requires our Wrexham primary schools involved, and it has massively immediate attention. We all understand that there are benefited our experience and knowledge of international tough times at home, but the people of Lesotho are development. having a tougher time. They have a massive rate of HIV DFID has played a major role in that. I know that infection in their country, and it is draining away enthusiastic securing finance for the global schools partnership is young people who are keen to get on. demanding and requires a lot of commitment. There is an element of form-filling that is not popular with the Guto Bebb: That is an important point. I support the applicants, but it is positive in that it requires those hon. Gentleman’s call for the UK representation in applying to think constructively about how they approach Lesotho to continue. We talk about the big society and, the global schools partnership and how they can engage, in a Welsh context, this is very much a big society for benefit in two directions, in the work being done. project. Community groups have come together—Merched y Wawr, the Women’s Institute and so on—to raise The link between Lesotho and Wales is massively money, and the Welsh Assembly has embarked on support important, and it is keenly felt in Wales. Established funding for the project. However, none of that would some years ago, it has developed hugely and is important have been possible without the facilitation of UK in both countries. Lesotho is somewhat similar to Wales Departments. A successful partnership approach has in that it is dominated by a slightly larger neighbour. created an enthusiasm for a country that, previously, Lesotho has South Africa; Wales, of course, has England. few people knew much about in a Welsh context. I think that Lesotho sometimes feels a little undervalued by the UK Government—for example, when its high Ian Lucas: That is absolutely right. It is impressive commission closed. It supported the movement against that public, private and charitable sector organisations the South African apartheid regime, but was not valued have come together to show their commitment to developing as much as it should have been. links between Wales and Lesotho. I commend the Tory-Lib The DFID office in Maseru is the only UK Government Dem Government for maintaining DFID’s budget, because presence in Lesotho and it is greatly valued. It would be I know that there are pressures from sources within a major step backwards if there were any thought of both parties to end such protection. closing that office because it is the only representation Within that context, we must prioritise the investment that we have in the country. For many years, Lesotho that is made and recognise that voluntary links between was our window into southern Africa. It was a place Wales and Lesotho have been established over many where people sought refuge from the apartheid regime years. The Government have supported those links, and that offered assistance to people from outside who which need to be fostered, encouraged and developed. were threatened by the appalling policies of South Through education, to which we have already referred, Africa at that time. capacity is starting to be developed within Lesotho. Governance also needs to be improved—a common Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate theme across many developing countries—but progress my hon. Friend on securing this important debate and is being made. commend the links with Wales to which he has been The past two to three years have been a very difficult referring. I strongly support the remark that he has just period across the world, but that is particularly the case made about the value of DFID’s presence in Lesotho. for developing countries. Now is not the time to step On the overheads involved in aid programmes in relatively back from supporting a country such as Lesotho. We small countries, the last evaluation report on DFID aid should build on the strong links that already exist to Lesotho that I was able to find referred to the between Wales and Lesotho and encourage more contact. importance of partnerships with other European donors We should certainly not withdraw the UK Government and better close working with the Foreign and presence in the country. Commonwealth Office. Would he care to comment on that? 11.15 am Ian Lucas: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I The Minister of State, Department for International know that both Germany and Ireland contribute to Development (Mr Alan Duncan): I thank the hon. Member development in Lesotho and have been very active in for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) for initiating this important the country—along with China, which is also becoming debate. It is clear that global poverty is an issue about an increasing presence in Lesotho. The link with Wales which hon. Members care deeply. Britain can be proud is really valued within Lesotho. In celebration of the of that. I am proud that the coalition Government have links between the two countries, the Queen of Lesotho not merely reaffirmed Britain’s commitment to meet the 105WH Lesotho24 NOVEMBER 2010 Lesotho 106WH goal of 0.7% of gross national income spent on aid with the world more widely. We are pursuing that aim from 2013, but that they have reflected that in concrete through support to improve road and rail travel and to terms through the recent spending review. reduce the cost of trade across the region. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to speak of Britain’s important relationship with Lesotho. Our Mr Andrew Smith: We all support the goal of free relationship has a long and complex history. Back in trade in Africa and elsewhere, but does the Minister 1868, Lesotho became a British protectorate under accept that, given the high proportion of Lesotho’s Queen Victoria and, in 1966, the Kingdom of Lesotho income that comes from custom dues, there will have to gained its independence from Britain. We now value be a careful process of transition so that those revenues Lesotho as a fellow member of the Commonwealth can be made up? and, in 2008, Lesotho attained lower middle income status. Considering that long-standing relationship, I Mr Duncan: I accept that any establishment of a free was pleased to learn of the personal links to the country trade area will have to look at such matters, and the maintained by the hon. Gentleman and his interest in right hon. Gentleman is right that existing patterns have the country’s development. I confess I never quite expected to be taken fully into account when looking at a future ever to hear in this Chamber the words “Wrexham goal. twinned with Lesotho”—although I appreciate that Britain has a long history of skills transfer to African there is a wider Welsh interest—and I am slightly envious partner countries. For example, the British Council has that he was able to welcome Queen Masenate Seeiso to provided Chevening scholarships to Lesotho for many his constituency. That trumps me. years, and the British Government are committed to scaling up that programme over the years ahead. There are good reasons for all of us to be interested in Lesotho’s development. It is the fifth most unequal I began my comments by reiterating the Government’s country in Africa and, as a result, poverty remains commitment to overseas development and poverty widespread and deep. Some 30% of people are living reduction. We should acknowledge the level of responsibility on less than $1 a day. Food insecurity and hunger that we take on as a result of that commitment: the mean that 41% of children under five years old are responsibility to ensure that we can demonstrate 100p stunted, and Lesotho has the third highest HIV rate in of value for every £1 spent; the responsibility to ensure the world, with almost one in four people living with that UK aid is spent where it can make the most the virus. The British Government are committed to difference, tackling the problems on which the UK can using the wide range of tools at our disposal to champion have greatest impact; and relentless discipline, thrift and justice, fairness and prosperity for the poor people of focus on value for money, which is essential in everything countries such as Lesotho. That includes not only our we do. bilateral aid programmes but, often more significantly, our work through the EU and the World Bank, debt Ian Lucas: On value for money, I commend to the relief, trade facilitation, skills transfer and more. Minister the global schools partnership, which, from my personal perception, has tremendous value, particularly In that context, let me comment first on DFID’s in creating strong, lifelong bonds between individuals in bilateral programme in Lesotho. The programme is the UK and developing countries. I ask him to stick relatively modest in scale at some £3 million per year, with that project, because it is a good one. which is less than 2% of the overall aid that Lesotho receives. However, the programme has changed many Mr Duncan: I hear clearly what the hon. Gentleman lives. For example, our support in preventing and treating says. Global partnership can be one of the most effective HIV and AIDS among workers in the garment industry— ways of delivering aid at the lowest possible unit cost. It predominantly women—has reduced HIV prevalence in can be a highly efficient delivery mechanism and will young female factory workers from 37% in 2007 to 29% remain an essential part of the menu of DFID’s activities in 2009. We have doubled the uptake of HIV testing by around the world. The key to that is value for money garment factory workers over the same period. An and stretching every pound as far and as effectively as increase of £1 million in support to that programme possible. over the year ahead will help to improve women’s lives, tackle a major cause of maternal death and support That is why in June this year my right hon. Friend the private sector growth by sustaining a healthy work Secretary of State launched reviews of all bilateral, force. multilateral and humanitarian work undertaken by DFID. The aim has been to target our aid where the need is However, our bilateral support is much less than the greatest and where the impact will be greatest. Ministers substantial total funding—about £10 million each year—we are currently considering the findings of our bilateral provide to Lesotho through multilateral channels, including aid review and consulting with ministerial colleagues the EU, the World Bank, debt relief and international on how to take our recommendations forward. Our NGOs. We are stepping up our scrutiny of the performance development relationship with Lesotho will reflect the of those partners around the world to ensure that UK choices that we have had to make in those reviews so aid is well spent. that we can maximise the impact of our development It is also abundantly clear that the future of a land-locked spending. That will take account of the representations country, such as Lesotho, cannot lie in aid alone. It will that have been made on behalf of Lesotho, and I have lie as well in Lesotho’s ability to trade with neighbours taken careful note of everything that has been said in and Africa’s ability to trade with the rest of the world. today’s debate. The Prime Minister has made clear his commitment to There are many pressing needs in Lesotho, and our supporting Africa’s ambition to establish a free trade aid over the years has played a role in helping to meet area, thus freeing up trade between African states and some of them, alongside a number of other donors. 107WH Lesotho 24 NOVEMBER 2010 108WH

[Mr Duncan] Independent Retailers Our responsibility now is to ensure that Britain’s contribution to development is as effective as possible [MR MIKE WEIR in the Chair] in future, through the choices we make—this is the crux of the debate—about our bilateral programme, about our support for the work of partners through multilateral 2.30 pm channels and about the nature of our relationship as a Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): whole. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, One thing is certain: whatever the shape of our Mr Weir, and to have secured this debate on so important development support for Lesotho in future, it will reflect a subject. I welcome my hon. Friend the Minister to his in some form the deep regard in which we hold Lesotho position—this is my first opportunity to do so on the and its people, a regard that is clearly shared by many in Floor of the House—and I know he will fill it with this country, as has been articulated clearly this morning considerable distinction. When occasionally I give the by the hon. Member for Wrexham. odd, not criticism but constructive prod, I hope he will forgive me and take it in the spirit in which it is intended. 11.24 am This afternoon is an opportunity for friends of the Sitting suspended. Government—those who support them—who represent market towns and town centres all around the country to draw to their attention the important predicaments, problems and issues that business people, particularly small business people and independent retailers in high streets and town centres, have confided in us. A great deal of hope is reposed in this Government. On Monday, I attended a business breakfast with the Tavistock chamber of commerce. Broadly speaking, my experience is that local business people in my constituency—I would expect this to be replicated throughout constituencies in the south-west and beyond— are understanding of the Government’s economic policy. They perceive that dealing with the financial crisis that we inherited was the overwhelming priority for this Government. They understand that the necessity of controlling the deficit and getting on top of it was all-consuming, and that for the past six months Ministers in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Treasury and throughout the Government have been concentrating on that essential task. Business people in my constituency are now looking for what the Government will do to stimulate growth. What will they do in terms of the range of measures available to them, given that they are hedged in by economic circumstances? What can they do to foster prosperity and to enable businesses to get going, which they will if they are given the means? In respect of the high street—which I intend to concentrate on this afternoon, specifically high streets in market towns, four of which I represent—I want to have a word or two with the Minister and recommend several things. In doing so, I shall crib shamelessly from the Conservatives’ commission into small shops in the high street, on which I had the privilege of sitting, and which reported in July 2008. I am delighted to see its distinguished chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), who presided so expertly over that meticulous examination of all the issues that affect independent retailers. The commission included many people of great expertise, and I commend it to the Minister as a template for Government policy on this important subject, at least at the beginning. The distinctive character of a town—its sense of place and individuality—is substantially created by the diversity and quality of the retailers on the high street who provide personal service and much of the town’s variety and interest to visitors. Empty shops, an increasing number of charity shops and dilapidated town centres 109WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 110WH affect the morale of a community. They deter visitors from supermarket giants with their free out-of-town and lead to further decline. Last year, 12,000 independent parking, and their ability to sell below cost to persuade shops closed. customers through the door while they recoup the cost I unashamedly declare that my focus today is on the on other products. The Office of Fair Trading reported market town. I have four of them in my constituency: in 2006 that 1.8% of grocery lines were sold below cost. Tavistock, Holsworthy, Great Torrington and Bideford, That sounds a small amount, but shrewdly shifting each with their own unique identity and traditions, and discount offers from product to product is a powerful strong communities. Their business people are resourceful. commercial tool that represents a major disadvantage In Holsworthy, they have joined together under the to independent retailers in the high street, as my hon. banner of the chamber of trade to create the Holscard, Friend the Member for Northampton South noted in a loyalty scheme that entitles members who sign up and the small shops commission report. In addition, of obtain the card free of charge to discounts and special course, businesses cannot escape the inevitable difficulties offers. of the prevailing national economic situation. Next year, VAT will rise to 20%, fuel prices are high, and Each year, the Tavistock food festival attracts a large shoppers are drawing in their horns and spending less. number of local food producers who show off the extraordinary variety, sophistication and quality of food As I said, I attended a business breakfast with members that our area has to offer. The chamber of commerce of the Tavistock chamber of commerce on Monday. and other business organisations are active in supporting I found a ready recognition of and support for the events that enhance the vitality of the town’s appeal to Government’s compelling priority of mastering the visitors. This Friday, Tavistock will have its Dickensian unprecedented peacetime deficit left by Labour. Not a evening, which I strongly recommend to the Minister. It single voice was raised against that Government policy is great fun, and it heralds the real start of Christmas in this crucial regard. The overall direction of our festivities in the town. The main streets are closed to national economic policy is fully understood and supported traffic, all the shops are open until 9 pm, and the by small business people. chamber of commerce organises a vast range of different I know that the Minister, together with my right hon. activities: choirs, brass bands, a woodwind band, a fire Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is now eater, jugglers and morris dancers, to name but a few. concentrating on the measures necessary to stimulate Many of the shopkeepers dress up in Victorian costumes and facilitate the private sector growth that will be and hand out mulled wine to their regular customers as essential to our economic recovery. The Minister’s a way of thanking them for their custom throughout Department will be central to that mission, as will the year. There is a serious purpose to the evening. It others, and I venture to suggest to him that there needs attracts 12,000 visitors to the town who spend money in to be concerted and co-ordinated action, in which all the local shops, and many return throughout the year. Departments, as well as local government, play a part. The town is also in the process of setting up a business In respect, however, of the vital need for leadership improvement district. and the critical importance of local and national Great Torrington’s rich civil war history provided the Government co-operating to support small businesses backdrop for its community development trust to set up in town centres and on high streets, I have found Torrington 1646, a fascinating historical “time machine” apprehension, based not on the abilities of our Minister which takes visitors, including schoolchildren, back to or on the willingness of our Government, but on experience the days of the civil war and allows them to experience of the previous Government. Small businesses are life in the town during that era. The trust has refurbished apprehensive about the necessary leadership being there the Victorian pannier market to create a modern retail to support the work they are doing to improve the space and has enhanced the appearance of the town situation. One local business man joked that the best centre. way to start a small business under Labour was to buy a The Bideford 500 project to rediscover and promote big one and wait. I am confident that the Minister and the proud history of the town is well under way. It was this Government will not be found wanting in that regard. in and from the port of Bideford that Grenville built his ships and set sail on his Elizabethan adventures, and Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): It is a some of the first settlers in America also started from great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. there. The project complements the Bideford regeneration Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that local initiative that will redevelop important sites around the government has, in fact, a major part to play in aiding town. small businesses? We have seen parking charges increase I mention those few examples of the initiative, ingenuity to the point at which they are stopping people coming and activity of local business people to demonstrate to into town centres, and there is no ability to stop and the Minister that those communities have not sat back shop for a short period. There is piecemeal planning, and declined to take responsibility for their own future. which cuts out small units for people to start up, and They are not without the will to seize control and to there is an unrealistic attitude to rateable values, which take into their own hands the initiative and responsibility is not directly related to local government but related to for improving their lot, but they have not always felt government more generally. Out-of-town development that the Government, both local and national, have has become a much more valuable area in which to do been on their side. It is to that end that I urge the business than many of our town centres, and yet town Minister, after just six months in government, to bend centres are still rated very highly. I could go on, but do his intellect and the resources of Government. we not need to draw to the Minister’s attention the Times are tough. Small independent retailers and import of local government, and the fact that it has many other small businesses face increasing competition hampered small and medium-sized businesses in our from the internet. They face often unfair competition town centres for a considerable time? 111WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 112WH

Mr Cox: I, as ever, regard my hon. Friend’s points in Government to consider giving local authorities the this, an area of expertise for him, as compelling and power to determine the number and location of charity significant. There is no doubt that local government has shops in their areas. a very important role to play, but national Government must give the lead, and I urge the Minister to act on Mr Cox: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, to a large that. We do not often talk about big measures but we extent. The main issue that I have heard is that charity often talk about small ones, which cumulatively can shops are selling new goods. More and more charity become a powerful support to high street shops and shops are setting up on the high street, and instead of businesses. Planning is one example. Less than 40% of selling the donated goods of many hundreds and thousands new retail space planned for the next 10 years is for of well-wishers, they are selling a whole range of brand-new town centres. The abolition of the need test for out-of-town goods—often sports goods and clothing. supermarket developments in planning policy statement It is not hard to understand the chagrin, confusion, 6 was a retrograde step. I fully support that test and I dismay and disappointment of a shopkeeper, selling the urge the Government to consider restoring it, and I urge same product lines, on hearing that the charity shop the Minister to discuss the matter with the Secretary of next door has been given not only the mandatory 80% State for Communities and Local Government. relief, but the other 20% that the local authority can We should go further and consider inserting a diversity give. The charity shop might, therefore, be paying no test into retail planning guidance. Small shops might rates at all. Its waste is treated as commercial, but the have their own use class, so that they could receive the private shopkeeper is unable to have their waste treated special consideration that their function on the high thus, and it would seem to the struggling shopkeeper—who, street deserves. Changes to the planning system regarding after all, will be here in many years and is supplying a the need test, sympathy shown to small shops via the vital service for the community, bringing about a sense creation of their own use class, and a diversity test that of well-being and contributing to the local economy—that would impose on planners the need to consider the the playing field is not even. balance between local independent retailers and vast I do not suggest, as the hon. Member for Rochdale out-of-town supermarket businesses and to give weight (Simon Danczuk) noted, that we should be anti-charity- to the need for diversity on the high street, would be a shop, but I do propose to the Minister that we need to positive step forward. look at a protocol for local authorities, which would allow them to consult with local shopkeepers about the Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I am listening product lines that might be sold in a charity shop. Such to the hon. and learned Gentleman with great interest, consultation would help, but equally we need to look at and I congratulate him on securing the debate. What he whether charity shops that are selling brand-new goods says about planning is absolutely right, and it is not just should receive the rate relief that they currently do. about large out-of-town supermarkets. In Milngavie in my area, we face a potential Tesco Extra right in the Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Does my hon. and middle of the town, with another massive supermarket learned Friend not also agree that on the non-regulatory possibly in Bishopbriggs, and the small traders in those side there are things that the Government could do, areas are very concerned about the potential impact on simply by using their influence? For example, there is the viability of their businesses. The hon. and learned the established practice of upward-only rent reviews, Gentleman might find that that is also the case in other which informs the rates charged in town centres. I urge parts of the country. him to highlight that issue and, on the regulatory side, to ensure that the free parking from which out-of-town Mr Cox: My hon. Friend’s experience is, I think, retailers benefit is properly valued, because of the replicated in dozens of constituencies around the country, consequences that it clearly has for their competitors in and I fully understand her concern. What I am asking town. Free parking gives out-of-town retailers an enormous for is a co-ordinated approach. The Departments for advantage, and that is not properly reflected in their Communities and Local Government and for Business, rating levels. Innovation and Skills, and the Treasury, need to get together and think about the high street as a separate Mr Cox: My hon. Friend has, with uncanny empathy, issue. That would include looking at planning decisions predicted my next set of points, although he did not and guidance, and considering what we could do about express them with the same eloquence as I would have, charity shops, for example. and probably not the same passion. I shall, therefore, go on to make the points, and a few others besides. Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I, too, congratulate Rents and rates are a vital issue for high street shops the hon. and learned Gentleman on securing this very and independent retailers, and my hon. Friend makes a important debate. I also congratulate the Government very powerful point about upward-only review clauses. on producing their document about a health check in I would welcome the Government’s investigation of town centres and on the high street. It is a valuable that issue, because the Conservatives’ commission into document, and of some good use. small shops in the high street recommended that we On charity shops, I had a look at the hon. and examine it to see whether we could make inroads into learned Gentleman’s website before I came here today. the unfairness. I want, however, to come on to rates. It rightly says that charity shops are better than empty One hears about planning, rates and charity shops, shops, and I agree, but the proliferation of charity and rates come up time and again when I talk to small shops in my constituency of Rochdale has reached the businesses in my constituency. The system is byzantine; point at which they become a problem. So in respect it is incomprehensible. Walking into a local business, I of planning regulations, I urge the Minister and the sometimes find that the pub or petrol forecourt, for 113WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 114WH example, has had its rates lifted by thousands of pounds Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): May in the past year or two. In 2009, there was a 5% rise for I thank my hon. and learned Friend for securing this inflation. A transitional relief scheme came to an end, debate? The gist of his speech is specifically about so shopkeepers and business people were hammered by market towns, but my constituency is particularly marked large rate rises. by the number of empty shops. The point that my hon. However, the small business rate relief has not kept and learned Friend mentioned has been raised by pace. Many businesses that are regarded as small—we shopkeepers, entrepreneurs and landlords in the centre would all regard them as such—are no longer covered of Wolverhampton. Giving relief on empty shops when by the relief. I urge the Government to consider raising new tenants are coming in would be a constructive way the threshold for that relief. The Government could, to take the issue forward. importantly, immediately and urgently, translate the Conservative manifesto commitment, with which I have Mr Cox: I agree with my hon. Friend. In fact, I would no doubt my Liberal Democrat friends will agree, to go further and place in the hands of local councils the make small business rate relief automatic. It should not ability to grant a temporary rate relief for new businesses. depend on an application. The rate authorities are able My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see whether a business complies with the conditions has already introduced in the Budget a number of necessary for small business rate relief, so why do they measures for new business and start-ups. It is a critical not simply apply it? priority for this Government. But we could help shops I implore the Minister to lend impetus to our examination setting up specifically in the high street. They are so of this issue. If we can raise small business rate relief, valuable and important to the overall welfare and well-being increase its threshold and make it automatic, we will do of the towns that we represent. It would be a simple a lot to cause a sigh of relief up and down high streets. measure that would, cumulatively with others, have a powerful impact. I want to mention other measures, but I want to sit down soon because I am interested in Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I congratulate hearing the experiences of other hon. Members. the hon. and learned Gentleman on securing this debate. The measure that I have proposed is consistent with I share many of his concerns. Does he believe, as I do, the overall philosophy of this Government, which is to that many small businesses in our town centres face a place into the hands of local communities’ councils the double whammy when a national chain locates in the power to do something about the fabric and infrastructure town centre, often selling the same products as smaller of their communities. I urge the Minister to consider companies, but at a lower price? The rates for those that measure. smaller companies increase because the big national has come into town and allegedly increased the footfall. So Whenever one mentions high street shops, issues those smaller companies lose both ways: their rates go arising always include parking. I am dismayed and up and their ability to sell cheaper goods goes down. disappointed at how often local authorities, particularly county councils, seem to use parking as a generator of revenue. Time and again the national Government have Mr Cox: I do not want this debate to appear a urged local government—often with a measure of depressing, gloomy litany of problems for the high disingenuousness, given the fact that they have starved street. I prefaced my remarks with the kinds of initiatives local government of the means with which to do its that communities throughout the country are showing— work, while piling extra responsibilities on it— business improvement districts, taking on regeneration and community trusts—as they fight to sustain their Chris Ruane: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman towns and town centres. All communities will have a give way? similar interest. I agree with the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd Mr Cox: Not now. I will come back to that. (Chris Ruane). The small business in the high street needs special consideration from the Government. That Chris Ruane: It was going to be about starvation. is why I make my proposal to the Minister today and ask him to reflect on it. Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. On Monday, I met representatives at the Tavistock chamber of commerce and one trader said to me, Mr Cox: This is not meant to be a partisan point. I “Mr Cox, 25 shops in Tavistock are currently unoccupied. am not, on this occasion, having a jab at the previous Why should we not grant a rate-free period for a small Labour Government. I apply this point to all Governments. business that is willing to take on one of those shops, So often, Governments say to local government, “You with phased gradations up to the full sum, say, over should be doing this and that”, but do not provide the three or four years?” wherewithal for local government to do it. Local The Minister could adopt that measure, which would government has to understand that it is no use proposing greatly benefit businesses setting up in our market towns new and ever-increasing parking charges and not expecting throughout the country. Nowadays, they could probably to deal a blow not only to the morale and confidence of get a rent-free period, but why not enable the local traders, but to their economic interests. authority to grant a rate-free period? If we did that, it Good parking, easy access and quick-stop parking, would be a small measure, but its overall effect would be as the commission headed by my hon. Friend the Member disproportionate and would impact on the confidence for Northampton South (Mr Binley) called it, are vital of businesses to enter the high street, off-setting some to the health of the high street. It is essential that, in our of the difficulties that the hon. Member for Vale of constituencies, local government consults traders, stands Clwyd mentioned a moment ago. by their side and designs parking and transport systems 115WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 116WH

[Mr Cox] In market towns, high streets and small businesses in the wider area, broadband is crucial. However, in parts in a way that helps traders and does not simply generate of my constituency, people can barely get half a megabit, cash from the consumers and customers on whom they and the best speed is about five or six megabits. We will depend. That is an easy statement to make. look at speeds of 100 megabits in Cornwall. I do not I am dismayed that Devon county council, a Conservative know about Devonwall; we might even apply to join. council, proposes parking meters throughout the county Tremendous advantages can be conferred by broadband, towns, although that is inappropriate in some towns. and I urge the Minister to remember the Government’s Towns are struggling on the edge—the precipice—of commitment. economic viability, and to add extra charges for parking when people could go down the road to out-of-town Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): free parking, as the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew On that important point, is the hon. and learned Gentleman George) mentioned, is an extraordinarily crass, clumsy aware that more than half of small businesses rely on action. I urge Devon county council to think again or at the internet for up to 50% of their annual turnover? It is least ensure that its consultation is real and that it crucial for the Government to bear that in mind. tailors any parking schemes to the economic interests of the high streets in the towns on which it intends to Mr Cox: We can join across the House in the nicest impose those charges. possible way and agree that that is a critical issue for It is vital that we get parking right. Not only must we small businesses, not only in the high street but in the have a sensible parking regime, with different structures rural areas that I represent and in cities and towns for times of day and the ability to park free for up to an across the country. It is a particularly important issue in hour, which are vital, but it must be enforced sensitively. Torridge and West Devon, where the broadband service How many times, when one goes to the local town is poor. Across the border, however, there will be a council—hon. Members may have heard this—does wonderful broadband opportunity. We are committed one hear them say, “If only we could just enforce these to rolling out fast broadband by 2015, and I urge the things relatively flexibly and intelligently”? Minister to accord that due priority. A combination of The memory of getting a £40 or £60 parking ticket in those things will make the difference to the high street. a town stays with the visitor. They are not likely to look My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South, favourably on the town if, after a few minutes, they get a who is no longer in his place, recommended in the parking ticket for overstaying. It is crucial that local Conservative commission into small shops in the high governments understand such things, and I believe that street that we should look at a community hub enterprise the national Government can set a lead with advice and area that brings together all partnerships and schemes guidance. under one simple banner, thereby enabling the Government To that end, I agree with the hon. Member for Rochdale, to support them. I commend the recommendations of who mentioned the high street health check issued by that 2008 commission to the Minister. I humorously the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. referred to him as a white knight, riding out in support That is an interesting innovation; I do not believe that it of the high street. In his response, I hope that he will is anything more than a start, but it is certainly worth make it clear that that is what he intends to be. doing and I urge the Minister to follow it up. I have read the document with interest and it touches on some Several hon. Members rose— important issues. We need that kind of leadership. We need local leadership supported by local authorities and Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. Several hon. underpinned by encouragement and leadership from Members are seeking to catch my eye. I hope to start the the Government. wind-up speeches no later than 3.40 pm, and I hope that This should be a crusade. I want to paint for the hon. Members will bear that in mind. Those intervening House a picture of the Minister on his white horse, should remember that interventions should be brief. dressed in shining armour and shouldering his lance. Some have been pushing the envelope a wee bit.

Chris Ruane: Lady Godiva. 3.4 pm Mr Cox: He does not have the hair to be Lady Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Apologies for my Godiva, although he has a fine head of hair none the late arrival to this important debate, Mr Weir. As I said less. Picture him riding out on his white charger, shouldering in my intervention, I share many of the concerns that his lance and flying the flag for the high street. I know have already been expressed. that the Minister is a Cornishman, and speaking as a Eight years ago, I convened a meeting on improving Devonian, we look across the Tamar river with admiration, the retail sector within my constituency. I asked Professor regard and not a little envy. The sum of £132 million is Michael Carley of Edinburgh university to address being spent on the good people of Cornwall—and by my local retailers. He had just conducted research into Jove they deserve it—joining up every village, town and 14 successful town and city centres around the UK, community to super-fast broadband. The people of my including market towns, seaside towns and inner cities. constituency are like small children pressed up against The meeting heard that a successful town centre needs the window of the pie shop, envying the sight of the three crucial things: first, it should feel safe; secondly, it riches within. needs to be clean; and thirdly, it needs affordable and Broadband is important, and in Cornwall people are accessible car parking—that point has been addressed getting access to that wonderful opportunity—as a in full by the hon. and learned Member for Torridge Cornishman, the Minister will be delighted with that. and West Devon (Mr Cox). 117WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 118WH

We have had 13 years of a Labour Government, but disorder reduction partnerships in England and Wales, those issues have not been addressed in my town. It the county of Denbighshire, in which my constituency does not have a Labour local authority but an independent is located, was the third best performer. That was done Conservative local authority, and although we have had by adopting a neighbourhood approach to crime and the Welsh Assembly Government and 13 years of the disorder reduction partnerships, with everybody getting UK Labour Government, the problems were not resolved. around the table together and saying, “This is not just a I hope that they will be resolved under this Government, policing issue; it is about social services, education, although I fear that they will not. prisons and getting people back to work.” That is how we got on top of crime in my constituency and reduced it dramatically. Mr Cox: Cynic. I do not want to be too party political, but we may be facing 20% cuts in policing. Last week, my hon. Friend Chris Ruane: Absolutely. One reason is that local the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) joined me at a government faces a 40% cut to its budget. Many issues meeting with North Wales police. All the AMs and MPs that need addressing, such as those of having a clean, in north Wales were invited, but I am afraid that no safe environment, are functions of local government. In Conservative MP or AM attended. We were told that my area, Denbighshire, the funding will not be there. the number of police officers in north Wales will be cut The local government is already offloading those functions by 200, from 1,600 to 1,400. The number of support to the town councils, but they do not have the funding staff, including police community support officers, will either. If the environment is not clean, visitors will not fall by 250. We cannot have cuts of that calibre without be attracted. affecting front-line policing. I fear that the cuts will fall We have made great strides over the past two or three hardest in the poorest communities, where crime rates years in my constituency. I could see the quality of the are highest. If we have these huge police cuts, that will environment declining, so I put my town forward for make my task of helping to regenerate my town centre “Wales in Bloom.” That was before the big society was more difficult. mentioned, but we got 60 local organisations such as schools, churches, banks, businesses, Nacro and the The third issue that I want briefly to address is probation service. They all pulled together, and we affordable and accessible car parking. Again, the person came third last year and second this year—hopefully, in charge of the county’s finances is a Conservative we will be first next year. councillor. They control the purse strings and thought that it was a good idea to stick up car-parking charges, However, people will not actively take part in improving which grew and grew over 10 years. The authorities use their local environment if they think that the local them as a milk cow, but I fear that they have killed the authority is passing the buck and saying, “Will you do goose that laid the golden egg. Statistics from my local this for nothing? We are not going to pay for it anymore.” authority show that car parking increased until about We cannot engage and have the big society if people feel five years ago, but then steadily decreased. I would not that they are being used. A clean environment is essential, mind if the authorities ring-fenced some of the money and the engagement of the public, private and voluntary from the huge car parks in Rhyl to improve the environment sectors is key. in the car parks or the town, but they do not; they Let me pay tribute to the work of the probation cream the money off and do not put it back into the service in my constituency. The community payback community to improve the shops or the retail offer. team has probably done as much work as local authority We have such things as loading bays. I am not sure workers to improve the quality of the town. That is a whether anybody knows what a loading bay is—I do great way to go about things. They are young men, and not. I do not know how long someone is allowed to stay a few young women, who would perhaps have been sent in one, whether they have to put their lights on or to prison or an approved school. Instead, they were told whether they have to put a message in the window. to pay something back to the community where they However, people get fines time and again. As the hon. committed a crime. Those people are tending the gardens, and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon making the flower beds and engaging with the community. said, they leave the town very disappointed. Local If we are to reduce the number of prisoners, we need councillors have said, “These are seaside towns. We to get offenders working in the communities in which need to sting the visitors rather than the locals for the they committed the offence. I support the Government car parking.” I do not think that we should be stinging on that. I would not like to see people who have committed anybody. We should look at car parking as a way of offences in poorer communities being taken away and enhancing the retail offer in our communities, not as a made to work in a leafy suburb or town. I pay tribute to way of punishing people or taking money from one the community payback team that has done so much in area and gifting it to another. my constituency to improve the quality of the environment, That was just my short contribution on the environment, and to the local government workers who, on diminishing policing and safety, and car parking. If we can get on budgets, year after year, pulled out the plugs—indeed, top of those issues, we will be doing well. I congratulate planted the plugs—to make Rhyl the second best town the Government on their excellent document, which I for its size in north Wales according to “Wales in have only just seen and browsed through. It is a great Bloom”. little document, and I will take it back to back to Wales The second issue is that of a safe environment. The to see what we can do with it. Once again, I congratulate west ward in Rhyl had 900 houses in multiple occupation the hon. and learned Gentleman on securing this important and a high crime rate. Over the past 10 years, that has debate. I hope that the Minister is listening, because we come down dramatically and of the 376 crime and will be watching. 119WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 120WH

3.12 pm Dawlish, we have an ongoing battle between Tesco and Sainsbury’s, which is a waste of taxpayers’ money and Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): After deeply frustrating for local residents. such a bravura performance by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox), I would also commend the greater use in our communities it is with some trepidation that I contribute to the of the community land trusts. We look at them just as debate. This is a very worthwhile topic, and I would like vehicles for residential, but they are equally appropriate to contribute my view that the solution is a matter not in this context. I would encourage the Government to just of what local authorities can do or what the market such things better and to explain to local Government can do—as has been said, many of these communities what they can already do. issues are within the hands not of the Minister, but of a On parking, which, if I may, I will envelope within number of his colleagues. The solution is also in the planning, there are a number of very good schemes in hands of people. In that respect, we can look at the role other parts of the country—I regret that they are outside that the big society can play for small business, because Devon—that combine the idea of a loyalty card with I think it has a place. the idea of sharing parking. I absolutely take on board the point that local authorities will often use parking as In the south-west, we have a high number of small a milk cow. However, there are schemes that allow businesses; indeed, 91% of businesses employ fewer shops, working with the local authorities, to increase than five people. This debate about the small retailer is the revenue and put some of it back into the local therefore crucial to us. Unlike my hon. and learned community. I commend those ideas. Friend, I will include the small villages in my constituency —there are 30 of them alongside the four towns—because these problems also exist in those villages. Small retailers, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the hon. particularly in those small villages, are the lifeblood of Lady agree that of all the six critical factors that she is their communities. They can be like the local pub, which speaking about, parking is the most important, because is too often long gone. They can also be like the local it shapes what happens in the town? There is not a post office, which is, again, too often long gone. I am one-hat-fits-all approach, whether we are talking about therefore pleased that local residents in Stokeinteignhead out-of-town, out-of-town-centre, in-town-centre or off- have come together to found and now run a volunteer town-centre parking. The chamber of trade must be system to keep the local shop in their community. That involved in these issues. There is also the issue of the helps elderly residents, who will come in—perhaps a connection between the centre of the town and the edge little confused—to do their shopping. The shop also of town and the issue of regeneration. There are many produces newsletters. It does all sorts of things that things to be done, and the same hat does not fit everything mean that that small retailer is at the core of the when it comes to planning. community. I reinforce the points that have been made about colour, diversity and, indeed, identity, which we Anne Marie Morris: I thank the hon. Gentleman for need to retain not only on the high street, but in villages. his contribution. I think that that is an issue, but it is not That is a key issue. the most important one, as I will explain. The Independent Retailers Confederation has looked On training, access to training for retail skills is at the issue and come up with a number of thoughts, pretty rare. I am pleased that South Devon college, which I can perhaps share with the Minister. The which is in my constituency, has a course on retail skills, confederation represents 100,000 small businesses, which and I would like the Government to encourage more is no small number. It has categorised its findings into such courses. five key areas. I will not spend a lot of time on each Let me move swiftly on to the third issue, which is area, because hon. Members have already covered a lot regulation. As I am sure many Members are aware, it of these points very well. In fact, there are six areas, and is estimated that it takes the average retailer seven hours I want to explain what they are. They include planning, a week just to deal with regulation, and that can cost which we have touched on; skills training, which we them anything from £100 to £10,000 a year. This is have not touched on, and which I will come back to; about not just employment regulation, which is clearly regulation, which we have touched on in part; crime, one of the most onerous issues, or health and safety, but which we have also touched on in part; and access to issues such as the minimum wage and how pension finance. To that list of five, I would add taxation. schemes will change. We need to look at the perhaps Business rates must, of course, be key. I will go briefly unintended consequences of the new shape that regulations over each of those subjects. will take when the Government put them forward. On planning, there is clearly an issue about the power The fourth area is crime. This is probably a well-known of the supermarket. There is also the issue of charity statistic, but crime and theft cost the retail sector £2 billion shops, which has been well rehearsed. When the Secretary a year nationally. Two issues have been raised by the of State for Communities and Local Government begins Independent Retailers Confederation: one is antisocial to look at the overall shape of planning, I want him to behaviour, which has been covered by the hon. Member consider localism and the power that he intends to give for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane); the other is theft. The to local communities to make proposals for plans and challenge in dealing with the problem is that a theft for what they should look like. I would encourage him does not happen until the culprit leaves the premises. to ensure that the plans consider not only housing, but How many small shopkeepers wait until the individual businesses. We will help to shape the planning of our has left the shop to apprehend them? The answer is that communities if those plans look at businesses as well as they do not. They keep the individual there and call the residential. If they do that, they will say, “We want one police. The result is that there is no prosecution and supermarket here, not two.”In one town in my constituency, police time is not particularly well used. There must be 121WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 122WH a better reporting method, and it must be possible to However, small businesses are often sole traders and find a legal approach that is a better deterrent than the partnerships. There is great frustration because, when system we have now. corporation tax is reduced to help small businesses, they I am saddened that only two of the large banks are face increased national insurance contributions. making significant progress with the lending guarantee scheme, and I look to the Minister to encourage more Anne Marie Morris: I thank my hon. Friend for that on that front. However, something that the banks suggested, intervention, which follows on from one I made in the which I think is very helpful, would be the introduction House yesterday. I agree that small businesses need of a new mentoring system that would ultimately replace, some help. I should like the holiday that has been in a way, much of what Business Link, which is being extended to new businesses to be extended to what I phased out, used to provide. That would be excellent would describe as micro-businesses—those small businesses support for the retail sector. I suggest that such mentoring with one or two employees that find it a significant should be something we can see—the big society for challenge to take on a third employee. I entirely understand small business in action. In my constituency I have his point. considered getting local businesses together and asking There is much to be done. The sector is a very them to help each other. Business surgeries are being set valuable one. May I commend to the Minister the idea up, and local business men and women, as well as local that there is such a thing as the big society for small banks and others, will be involved. business? He might want to consider how to promote We are also setting up a group of individuals who will that. Finally, micro-businesses deserve particular attention, act as one-on-one mentors—not expensive, paid-for, and the retail sector provides a good example. There is a qualified mentors, but local business men next door to very large number of such businesses, and whether the other local business men. For example, the other day a issue is tax or regulation they need special care and business man wanted to become VAT deregistered and consideration. did not know how to go about it; a colleague had the answer. There are all sorts of things that we can do, and politicians can play a role in our communities. I am 3.25 pm pleased to say that I have a great deal of support from my local chambers. Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): I, too, congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) on securing the debate, and Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I on a vibrant speech. am pleased to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir, and congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member Adam Smith, the father of modern economic theory, for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) on securing the asserted that Britain is a nation of shopkeepers. debate. Given that banks are not lending as much as before, and small business is being starved of cash, does Chris Ruane: I thought it was Napoleon. my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) agree that stricter regulation is needed in Mike Weatherley: The Opposition may disagree about relation to corporations having to pay suppliers within who said it first, but I assure them it was indeed Adam a very short time? Often, smaller businesses get penalised Smith. much more for delays in paying tax and VAT. Does that It remains widely recognised that the small and medium- need to be reviewed? sized enterprise sector today will play a pivotal role in the recovery of our economy—and rightly so. All hon. Anne Marie Morris: That is a valuable contribution Members will be familiar with tales of the local independent on an important issue, and I am sure the Minister and retailer who goes that extra mile to take care of their his Treasury colleagues will take it into their thinking. community. They provide essential services and fulfil My hon. Friend’s intervention leads me neatly on to the retail needs of those who are less mobile and most taxation and business rates. I take on board the points vulnerable. The idea that independent retailers are the that were made earlier about timing, and the fact that heart of communities will not come as a revelation to we have revalued at exactly the wrong time, when the most hon. Members present for the debate—if it does market is in recession, with figures from when the to any of them. Despite that, in February this year the market was at its peak. I am sure that the Minister and Local Data Company reported in a study that one in his Cabinet colleagues have taken that on board and eight high street shops lay empty. will consider it. However, I offer congratulations to, I The economic slowdown clearly had a role to play in think, the Treasury team, on thinking about a holiday— the shuttering up of our independent high streets, but 100% relief—between October this year and next September there are far more fundamental causes, which will not from business rates where rateable value is less than reverse with the advent of economic recovery. The £6,000. That is an excellent thing to do, and I commend report cited a combination of rising business rates, it. I would like that to be extended, if it works well. soaring rents and draconian parking restrictions as Hon. Members will be pleased to hear that I have being to blame, and I know from speaking to my now covered my six areas. constituents in Hove and Portslade that the study paints a pretty accurate picture. However, my constituents Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): Many retailers, especially would all add one key issue to the list: the massive in my constituency, which is very dependent on small over-regulation that the sector endures. Government’s businesses and retailers, feel frustrated because when role is to ensure that causes are identified and that there Governments—of all colours—decide to help them, are market conditions that foster an independent retail they often do it by promising to reduce corporation tax. sector. There is a balance to strike between deregulation 123WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 124WH

[Mike Weatherley] than the multiple retailer end of the sector. Once they are gone, they are gone for good, as are the friendly face and positive and protective legislation. I believe that the of our local independent retailer and the heart of our Government’s challenge is to sift through the deluge of community. regulation that we inherited. I recently went to the ceremony for the independent Some hon. Members may know that I have recently achievers awards, which celebrated best practice in the been vocal about the tobacco display ban. To recap, sector. The energy in the room was electric with the that legislation was brought in without the benefit of a buzz of the best independent, innovative retailers regaling small business impact assessment. The cost to the one another with stories of how they had adapted to independent retail sector of implementing it is assessed support their local communities and build up successful at £33 million. Independent analysis shows that in businesses. That is the sense of pride and enthusiasm countries where the ban is implemented small shops are that we need to regain. disproportionately affected and there is no health benefit. Our independent retailers work long hours, seven Indeed, it is estimated that 2,600 small shops may close days a week, all year round, only to combat increasing as a result of that legislation alone. At the moment the costs, aggressive competition from multiple retailers, Government do not have any plans to carry out an decreasing profits, increasing bureaucracy and decreasing evaluation of its impact. Overturning that inherited access to credit. We need to reinvigorate the small legislation is but one example of the right and appropriate business sector with a package of measures. Scrapping path of deregulation needed to protect our independent the tobacco display ban would be a good start. retailers. If we do not do so, our nation of shopkeepers will become a nation of clone towns, with local shop models of supermarkets replacing the traditional British 3.31 pm independent offering. The Government are currently Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I shall be brief because reviewing the legislation and I urge all hon. Members to another hon. Member wishes to speak before the start speak to the Secretaries of State for Business, Innovation of the winding-up speeches. I congratulate the hon. and and Skills and for Health and to register opposition to learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox), that over-burdensome, soundbite regulation. who spoke with passion, knowledge and humour and is As late as July this year the London assembly added a true crusader for his cause. I particularly agree with its voice to the many expressing concern for the sector him on rates. The Liberal Democrats would like eventually in its report, “Cornered Shops”. The report indicates to move to a system of site value rating, but I totally that 7,000 independent shops shut in the last 10 years agree that raising the threshold at which rates are paid alone—or 13 a week. That marks a long term decline, would be a good start to help retailers. I believe that the exacerbated by the recent economic crisis and punctuated Minister will confirm that automatic rate relief is in the now by a continuing lack of access to credit, which we coalition agreement and we will be implementing it have heard about today. We all recognise the frustration soon—the sooner, the better. at the fact that, after the bail-out of irresponsible bankers, The state of the country is very bad. As the hon. and those bankers are not doing their bit to lend to small learned Member for Torridge and West Devon mentioned, businesses and kick-start the economy. Something needs 12,000 independent shops closed in 2009. When people to be done to ensure that access to credit is made buy their consumables in the local economy, 50 to 70% simpler for independent and viable retail offerings—and of that money stays in the local economy. If they go to a quickly. large retailer, £7 of every £10 that they spend will leave We have seen the rise of supermarkets in the past the local economy. It is therefore very important that 10 years, and there has been an aggressive expansion in the Government give a lead on public procurement. the past few years into the local stores format. Our There is a Government aspiration that 25% of procurement planning law needs to recognise and cauterise that will come from small businesses. What is the proportion practice, which is slowly bleeding out our independent now and what steps are we currently taking to achieve high streets. Planning law needs a sustainability test, that? I commend the Federation of Small Businesses, under which multiple chains would need to demonstrate which has been a tireless campaigner on this matter, that any proposed application would not adversely alter particularly with its “Keep Trade Local” campaign. the mix of small, medium and large stores on high That has been tremendous. streets. Supermarkets account for a massive 75% of the I want to ask the Minister a couple of other questions. market and 80% of independent retailers say that multiples Many retailers export, but when I was reading the are the single biggest threat to their livelihoods. I certainly Department for Business, Innovation and Skills business do not advocate getting rid of supermarkets and propping plan the other day, I could see no mention of support up failing independent retailers for the sake of it: both for retailers or small businesses seeking to export—unless have their place in a healthy and modern economic mix; of course it is arms that are being exported, which they are not mutually exclusive. seems to be all right. Also, the hon. and learned Member Although this is by no means atypical of the operating for Torridge and West Devon talked about the local experience of all independent retail sectors, I shall give government role in assisting small business. It has been just one example of how the scales are tipped against perceived in the past to be more of a hindrance than a newsagents. The National Federation of Retail Newsagents, help, although I am sure that that was not intentional. and newsagents in my constituency, have told me that one of their biggest problems is the lack of control that Simon Danczuk: I want to make the point about local they have in the newspaper supply chain versus government in relation to Rochdale. About two years supermarkets’ buying power. We need to protect our ago, I suggested that Rochdale council introduce free independent high streets, which are far more vulnerable parking across the town centre. It eventually introduced 125WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 126WH that a few months ago, with much reluctance on the regeneration but, ever mindful that we will always be part of senior council officers—it is not so much elected competing with Oxford, Bristol, Reading and Bath, we members who are the issue. I have to put it on record need something that sets us apart from those other that the credit goes to a Conservative councillor, Ashley towns as potential shoppers head down the M4 and Dearnley, who had to drive that change through the choose which ones to go to. Through small independent local authority. Free parking on a Saturday is not the retailers, we can have that unique offering. complete solution, but it does help. I shall start by being positive. A recent BBC TV programme was called “Mary Queen of Shops”. I am a Lorely Burt: Absolutely. I could not agree more with big supporter of the idea that she put forward, which the hon. Gentleman. The point of local government is was that it is not all doom and gloom and that many to show good political leadership. retailers need to embrace changing customer expectations. The hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West I shall use just two quick examples, one of which was a Devon talked about the needs test and the local interest struggling greengrocer’s that was very quiet in the daytime. test, which would be a tremendous help. If we had that She encouraged the people at that greengrocer’s to go now, we might not have the situation that we currently out and get orders for delivering vegetables to people’s have in my constituency of Solihull, where a huge Asda doors. In the daytime, when they were quiet, they could is being built on 3 acres of parkland on the main pack those boxes, and that increased their income shopping street of Shirley. Will that stimulate custom significantly. The other example came from an area in for small independents on the rest of the high street? I the south-west that was a tourist attraction—I forget doubt it. I think that it will bleed them dry, but we shall the name of the place—where there was a struggling have to wait and see. convenience store. She had the store redesigned so that I welcome the help that the Government are already it became more old-fashioned, to buy into the tourism giving. With regard to regulation, we have the one-in, aspects of the area, and encouraged it to promote local one-out policy and the sunset-clause policy and all the produce, which had a story, and to have events inside other aspirations that we are moving strongly towards. I the store. Again, that increased business. would like to suggest consideration of small business as There is a part that retail has to play; it is not just the an automatic part of any pre-implementation review of Government and local authorities that have to act. new regulation and of the post-implementation review. However, there are other challenges. Many hon. Members It would be very good to build that into whatever have mentioned the banks. I get very cross when banks legislation we produce. say to me that they are doing their bit; they have signed With regard to the banks, I have a constituent who up lots of customer relationship managers. In my experience, has an independent retail company. She applied for they do not have the relevant business experience and some help from the banks and was told, “Sorry. You’re they still rely on the computer, which all too often in the wrong sector.” My right hon. Friend the Secretary says no. of State for Business, Innovation and Skills is examining I support the comments that many hon. Members that, and I hope that he has a good go at ensuring that made about rates. In other debates, I have urged us to the banks give small business, independent retailers and ensure that there is some flexibility in the rates system. everyone else who needs it the help that they deserve. We have so much spare capacity with empty shops and, using the rates system, we can help to attract the next Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): I now call Justin Tomlinson, generation of small retailers. That would not only tackle but remind him of the need to allow time for the ghost high streets but create new employment opportunities, winding-up speeches. and surely a small rates contribution is greater than none at all. 3.36 pm I agree with many of the comments on parking. I am delighted that my local authority has cut parking charges Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): Thank you, and seen footfall and income increase, although I have Mr Weir; I will be on time. I congratulate my hon. and just one proviso before we bash all local authorities. learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West There was a lot of emphasis by the previous Government Devon (Mr Cox) on securing this excellent debate. It on encouraging green travel, which, perversely, encouraged has captured the interest of so many hon. Members councils to make it harder for people to park in their both because of the subject and because of his engaging town centres. delivery. Finally—because I am conscious of the time—I echo I am a big fan of small shops, for a number of the support for the Conservative small shops commission, reasons. First, I am the vice-chair of the all-party group chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton on small shops and I am a member of the all-party South (Mr Binley), who has now left the debate. We retail group. I also come from a family of small business should embrace and deliver the thrust of that, to restore shop owners. I have many happy memories of growing pride and life to our high streets. up in the back of my parents’ wool shop, which was very handy in these colder days. 3.40 pm Chris Ruane: He didn’t want for a scarf. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Welcome to the Chair, Mr Weir. I congratulate the hon. and learned Member Justin Tomlinson: That is right. As has been said, for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) on securing this small shops provide diversity but also character and valuable debate. I commend all hon. Members for their interest to the high street. My local authority, Swindon, brevity and their comradely manner in allowing everybody is embarking on trying to secure significant town-centre to contribute, which has made the debate all the better. 127WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 128WH

[Ian Lucas] an interesting point about regulation. I am sorry to disappoint him, but the Secretary of State for Health This is an important issue for all hon. Members, spoke only this week about additional regulation on whether they represent towns, cities, villages or a tobacco products, with the introduction of plain labels. combination of all those elements. Independent retailers Far from following the hon. Gentleman’s advice, the are important in all communities, as is clear from the Government are going in the opposite direction. debate. We all recognise that we are in a difficult economic The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) told us situation that has hit independent retailers hard over about Asda in her constituency, and it is also a major the past couple of years. However, there has been a influence in my constituency. We all face the conflict decline in independent retailers in our communities between supporting the work of independent retailers, over many years because of supermarkets, the increased which are important to our communities, and wanting use of private transport, differing demands and changing to bring more jobs to our communities, which supermarkets consumer habits. We must recognise that it is not only are very effective at doing. They often provide flexible Government behaviour that has changed people’s use of terms of employment for those who want to work there. independent retailers; it is a product of the different We must get that balance right, which is difficult. way in which people shop. The independent retailer The hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) network recognises that and successful independent made a valuable contribution. I am pleased to hear of retailers are consequently more flexible in their shopping his work with the all-party small shops group and I am times and offer greater quality and reliability in their sure he will continue to make valuable contributions. products. Many are competing successfully with One of the most difficult issues for independent supermarkets by offering innovative and distinctive products retailers is regulation. That is a difficult issue for all of that people want to buy. us. Many of the proposals that have been made in the All the speeches that have been made are worthy of debate, such as on parking and charity shops, would comment. The hon. and learned Member for Torridge require additional regulation and new legislation. It is and West Devon has a long record of campaigning on easy to create good soundbites such as “one in, one this issue. He spoke clearly and eloquently about his out”, but it is more difficult to devise the regulation that community. On broadband, the Labour Government’s is necessary to pursue particular policy ends without its commitment of at least 2 megabits by 2012 has been being onerous for small business. removed by the Liberal-Tory Government. Unfortunately, As a former Minister with responsibility for regulatory his community will have to wait longer for satisfactory reform, I know that the Better Regulation Executive broadband services. I am sorry that Devon is not progressing will provide excellent support to the Minister by nagging as quickly as Cornwall. It is unfortunate that that him on regulation—I am sure it will nag him just as commitment, which would have helped villages and avidly as it nagged me. Contrary to the perceptions of smaller communities, has been reneged upon. some Government Members, I did not used to wake up My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd dying to regulate every morning, but tried to reduce (Chris Ruane) spoke about Rhyl—few people know regulation as much as I could. One of the previous more about Rhyl than he does. He spoke of the importance Government’s most positive moves in reducing regulation of safety, cleanliness and presentability to all communities. was the forward regulatory programme, whereby We all recognise and value those things. It is important Departments have to publish what they propose to that communities are safe and we should recognise the regulate. It frightens Ministers when they see the length important contribution that CCTV makes in our of the list they present. I am delighted that the Government communities, including in my community of Wrexham. are continuing with that programme, because it is a good discipline. Dealing with new regulation is in many The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie respects more difficult than dealing with stock. It is Morris) mentioned theft from shops, which is a big quite easy to get rid of a regulation about driving problem for smaller shops, where there are often fewer horse-drawn carriages across particular heaths, but it is members of staff. It is clear that CCTV makes a major more difficult to prevent Ministers from legislating with contribution to tackling that problem. I would not like new regulations. As we all know, independent retailers to see the popular provision of CCTV in places such as suffer disproportionately from regulation because they Wrexham diluted by the Government. It is not clear have so many other things to do. whether the current review will lead to a reduction in CCTV provision. It has had a big impact in providing a We have a common aim of improving the position for safe and satisfactory shopping environment in my independent retailers. There is a lot of imagination in constituency. She also spoke about regulation, to which the independent retail sector. When I was fortunate I will return. enough to be a Minister at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, I made an interesting visit to I was interested in the contribution of the hon. Member Westway in west London, where, under the ring road, for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on corporation tax. It was there is a co-operative enterprise of different shops that such a good point that the only other person whom I offer distinctive products. If the hon. and learned Member have heard make it is me. We talk too often about for Torridge and West Devon has an opportunity to reductions in corporation tax. Those of us who have visit that enterprise, I commend it to him. It shows that run a business as a sole trader know that those reductions when a community is changing, independent retailers do not result in any benefit for such individuals. We often identify more quickly and appropriately the need to be more flexible in the way in which we use such opportunities in the market, and are often more imaginative provisions. in the products that they provide. The hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) was We have discussed some interesting incentives such as right that the phrase “the nation of shopkeepers” rate relief and enabling students to consider taking on comes from Adam Smith. The hon. Gentleman made empty units for a limited period—perhaps for a month 129WH Independent Retailers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Independent Retailers 130WH or two. We should encourage such flexibility at a local have now shown how we will reverse, would in the level. Contrary to the observation of the hon. and estimation of the Federation of Small Businesses have learned Gentleman, the Opposition want small business cost up to 57,000 jobs—often in the local shops that our to succeed and see it as an important driver of economic communities value. We are, therefore, reversing the approach growth. Economic growth is vital and it is regrettable on employer’s national insurance, for the most part. On that the Government have not yet brought forward their small company corporation tax, from next April we will growth White Paper. be cutting—not increasing—the level of the rate on I agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman that profits by 1%, which should be crucial for the viability growth is imperative. We want small businesses and and, indeed, profitability of many of the smaller retailers. large businesses to succeed. We need to convince our A number of people raised some powerful issues young people to run their own small businesses, which about charitable shops. The question concerns when is something I did but would never have contemplated people enjoy special treatment but trade in areas that as a teenager—it just happened that way in the end. they had not previously traded in. I want to raise those Doing so gives you individuality, freedom and potential, issues with my ministerial colleagues. and we should be encouraging people to do it. We need The hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) to devise and put in place the policies to take that mentioned tobacco displays, but the choice is difficult. forward. We all want to ensure that underage smoking is tackled, but we do not want to penalise the smaller business 3.50 pm unduly. We are having a strong discussion in Government on that subject, and the Secretary of State for Health The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation will be making an announcement shortly. and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): May I begin by congratulating my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge The issue of business rates was raised by a number of and West Devon (Mr Cox), not only on securing the hon. Members. When running a business, business rates debate but on his characteristically eloquent and powerful sit on the overheads—they are fixed costs, so in good advocacy of the arguments that he had marshalled? He and bad times they affect people equally. That is why I ranged across some of the crucial touch points that can confirm in one case, and newly announce in two allow our town centres, villages and high streets to other cases, changes that address many of the questions prosper but that, in some cases, prevent them from asked in the debate about small business rates and the trading at all. I want to touch on as many of those relief. points as I can. I confirm that we are doubling the level of small It has been an excellent debate and there have been a business rate relief in England for one year, with effect number of common themes. I will use the nine minutes from this October, reducing the fixed cost for small or so remaining to tackle some of the wide range of businesses and helping them to continue to trade while issues, but I will canter through them, if I may use the the economy returns to growth. As suggested by hon. white knight metaphor without too much danger, leaving Members, that means that eligible businesses occupying it there for Members to mull over if they have strong properties with a rateable value of up to £6,000 will pay stomachs. I will not get into some of the finer points or no rates, with tapering relief up to a rateable value of the broader issues around regulation. We have important £12,000. issues such as business rates, planning, the role of high In practice, what does that mean? It means that more streets, town centre management and the commission than half a million businesses in England will benefit, that my hon. and learned Friend mentioned. with 345,000 businesses paying no rates at all. In value First, as someone who started his own business at the terms, the saving amounts to £390 million. In particular, bottom of the previous recession, I share my hon. and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge learned Friend’s interest in and passion for enabling our and West Devon will wish to know that we think about independent retailers to start and grow. Times are difficult 65,000 businesses in the south-west will benefit. My for many retailers, as well as other small businesses. The right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities point that hon. Members in all parts of the Chamber and Local Government has announced that we intend have made is that small businesses, and small shops in to proceed with legislation to ensure that small business particular, are not just vital parts of the local economy, rate relief will be automatic. We made that commitment but focal points for the community. We need to bear before the election, and we are honouring it. It will be that in mind. set in legislation shortly. It is also important to bear in mind that at the Today, we announced our plans to change the rules moment, in some places, independent retailers are often so that councils can set further business rates locally, to feeling squeezed out by some of the larger chains, which respond to specific needs or to help high streets that are can threaten to reduce consumer choice and competition. struggling and where a little local application of further In the time that I have, without stretching the metaphor discounts could help. It is a good local programme, too far, I will seek to saddle up and tackle some of the funded locally, which will provide vital flexibility in our practical issues, which our constituents are keen to areas. I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will learn about. take those points further forward. The Government inherited some plans that would Planning was raised by several hon. Members. not be good for small businesses, such as planned Independent retailers in the high street have been anxious increases in small company corporation tax and in about some of the changes made under the previous employer’s national insurance. We have made it clear Government. This Government strongly support a localist that we will reverse both increases. For example, the approach to planning for the high street, which is why impact of the planned national insurance rise, which we we have a clear commitment to the “town centres first” 131WH Independent Retailers 24 NOVEMBER 2010 132WH

[Mr Mark Prisk] Concessionary Travel planning policy. In practice, it gives local authorities the ability to consider the vitality, viability and diversity of 3.59 pm shopping districts when considering controversial planning Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): It is a pleasure, applications. Mr Weir, to serve under your chairmanship. I thank all Ministers are also making it clear that any specific hon. Members for giving up their time to attend this changes to national planning policy will be brought debate, which is about an important subject. Concessionary forward through the national planning framework. There fares come with a history of controversy, and I have is, therefore, clarity and an element of consistency. We received many representations on the topic from my are committed to returning power to local communities, constituents. I hope that we get some clarification from to enable them to shape the development of their areas, my hon. Friend the Minister today. which is why we will present to Parliament a simple and Concessionary travel is vital to many communities, consolidated national planning framework covering all especially to the elderly, the disabled and those who live forms of development. The announcement will be made in rural areas, who would otherwise be cut off from soon, in particular on how we propose to progress the basic services. Eleven million people in England qualify framework and on the implications for specific areas of for the concession, which is no small number. Since the planning policy. However, to be very clear, the principle introduction of the scheme in Worcestershire in 2008, of “town centres first” is a vital part of that framework. we have seen an 18% increase in the number of concessionary journeys made in the area, and the county Mr Cox: Will the Minister give way? has issued more than 100,000 cards. The preservation of concessionary travel is a huge Mr Prisk: I will canter on, if I may, because I feel deal. For me, it is especially important to Worcestershire honour bound to mention a couple of questions asked and my constituency of Redditch. As a Redditch councillor by other Members. in 2004, the Conservative minority-control council scrapped On procurement, the answer for the hon. Member for the free bus pass on advice from council officers, who Solihull (Lorely Burt) is 16%. Measures for transparency told us that it could not be sustained, but we soon and removing red tape will help. If she looks at the UK realised what a gigantic mistake it had been. At the Trade & Investment website, rather than at the Department following local elections, Labour election literature branded for Business, Innovation and Skills one, she will find the me the “bus pass snatcher”. Needless to say, we lost the export advice that she seeks. election, and I am certain that the issue was a significant I turn briefly to two other things, one being rural factor in my losing Redditch in the 2005 general election. broadband, about which my hon. and learned Friend The Labour group reinstated concessionary fares in the Member for Torridge and West Devon is keen to 2004, but the disaster that I have mentioned must not be have answers. We are determined to ensure that we do repeated. not just have a slight improvement—2 megabits—but that we have super-fast broadband right across the Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I congratulate country. Our commitment is to deliver that by 2015, my hon. Friend on securing this debate. She makes a backed by a £530 million package. We are piloting it, strong point. Does she acknowledge that the problems in particular, in rural areas—we understand their of the present concessionary fares scheme affect county difficulties—such as the highlands and islands of Scotland, towns such as Worcester particularly badly, and that if Herefordshire, Cumbria and North Yorkshire. The the Government are going to switch it from the districts commitment is clear, and we want to ensure that we to the counties, it is essential that they reallocate the deliver on it. grant and not simply the cost of the scheme? Lastly, I turn to the broader question. My hon. and learned Friend was, under the chairmanship of my hon. Karen Lumley: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. I Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), shall probably come to that point later. part of the commission referred to in the debate. A vital I fully support the announcement in the Government’s beginning to that process is the document—the tool—that comprehensive spending review to I am holding, entitled “Healthy High Street?”. The “Protect the statutory entitlement for concessionary bus travel, process is about understanding the holistic issues that ensuring that older people can maintain greater freedom and affect town centres—whether planning, parking or whatever. independence.” I happily and strongly commend the proposals, which However, I am worried that it does not go far enough. I have come from the retail industry jointly with the believe that the Government are not effectively addressing Government. The document begins a process to strengthen the serious concerns voiced by district and county town centres. councillors about the reduction to local government Times are tough for retailers, which is why we are resource grants of 28%, the transfer of grant funding tackling their costs, dealing with the planning and open administration and the 20% cuts to the bus service to helping them in the months and weeks to come. operators grant. Together, those will have a significant effect on the provision of concessionary travel. Today, I wish to speak particularly about the implications that the transfer of grant funding from district councils to the county council, mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), will have for two-tier authorities. I stress that the problem is not the principle of transferring the funding to county councils, but the 133WH Concessionary Travel24 NOVEMBER 2010 Concessionary Travel 134WH process of reallocating financial responsibility. Under option for the rural and tourism areas, I sincerely hope current plans, the national scheme, which is administered that our ally will come along with some good news later locally, is to be withdrawn from district councils and this afternoon. transferred to county councils from April next year. In the past, councils have often had to deal with substantial Karen Lumley: Like my hon. Friend, I hope that we shortfalls in funding for the scheme, and the latest get some good news this afternoon. That is why we are development appears to be a continuation of this struggle. here. I seek clarification from the Minister. Will he assure Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I the House that district councils will not be significantly congratulate my hon. Friend and Worcestershire colleague financially disadvantaged as a consequence of the transfer on securing this important debate. Does she agree that of the administration of concessionary fares from district it would be desirable for councils, whether at district or to county council level? If some councils are to be county level, to be net-net—not out of pocket either disproportionately affected, may I suggest a top-up way—when implementing the scheme on behalf of the fund to ensure that those councils likely to face substantial Government? losses will not be financially disadvantaged? In light of the tremendous upheaval that the transfer Karen Lumley: That is the point that I am making. will cause, the time scale allowed for councils is less The proposal could be devastating for district councils, than satisfactory, given that local authorities already as they stand to lose significantly more than they spend. have to deal with the comprehensive spending review. The system has been described as a mess by the District Will the Minister consider making representations to Councils’ Network. Changes to the formula need to be his Department to change the date required for publication clear, transparent and accurately carried out, but many of the scheme from 1 December? As we know, the councils are concerned that the implications have not spending allocation will not be published until later, been properly thought through. which will leave local councils second-guessing how much will be needed. Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this incredibly important Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I congratulate debate. To give substance to her argument, I should say my hon. Friend on securing this excellent debate. I feel that the leader of Wyre Forest district council told me like the odd one out, given that I represent a unitary only this afternoon that the potential cost to that one local authority. Does she agree about the need for council would be £1 million if the worst option is clarity, especially in the long term, so that local authorities selected. That is £1 million a year on top of the expected can plan accordingly? cuts resulting from the comprehensive spending review. Karen Lumley: Wouldn’t that be nice! When I was a councillor, we worked year to year; we never got any Karen Lumley: I thank my hon. Friend for that. I further ahead than that. I totally agree with my hon. know that Redditch is looking at similar figures. Friend. That would be fantastic. It is most likely that the transfer will result in I hope that the Minister agrees that clarity would neither a fair nor a transparent funding deal, some allow districts fully to assess the impact of funding councils being hit harder than others through losing a adjustments, and thus be able to make more informed disproportionate amount of grant funding. decisions on the possibility of continuing local enhancements to the national scheme. For example, the Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): On that Redditch scheme runs for the whole day, so whenever point, Brighton and Hove city council is looking at a the buses start—it is usually 7 am—residents are able shortfall of £1.3 million. I suggest that a grant should to use them. However, the national scheme starts at be provided to cover the fact that some places are 9.30 am, and our residents lose out by not being able to tourist destinations and have extensive bus networks as travel during busy commuter times. a result. I shall speak briefly about the bus service operators grant. There was much speculation before the Karen Lumley: We in rural Worcestershire suffer from comprehensive spending review about Government plans different problems, but I take that on board. to cut the BSOG entirely, but it proved to be unfounded. Instead, the grant will be reduced by 20% from 2012. I The system is surely not in line with the Government’s welcome the Government’s view that that reduction will message on fairness. I wholeheartedly support that message, have a marginal impact that can be absorbed without but on this matter it is failing to get through. We need to fares needing to rise. However, many do not believe ensure that funding is allocated fairly and equitably. that. The impact of individual cuts could be absorbed, but when combined with cuts to the revenue grant and Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): My hon. changes in the funding system, they will have a potentially Friend makes a good point. The changes affect different devastating effect. Will the Minister say exactly how parts of the country differently. In South Derbyshire, these cuts can be absorbed, and what practical measures we are trying to negotiate friendly terms with Derbyshire are in place to ensure that concessionary fares will not county council. However, in the past Chesterfield and cause increases? Derby city lost huge sums as a result of various changes. Many authorities are approaching the comprehensive I understand that consultation with the Government spending review outcomes positively—I know that Redditch is going well. There are four options. In two we lose is—and they hope to be in a position to meet the loss in dreadfully, and in one we are just about okay. As for the grant without a disproportionate impact on service 135WH Concessionary Travel24 NOVEMBER 2010 Concessionary Travel 136WH

[Karen Lumley] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): My own constituency is very similar to that of my hon. delivery. However, some councils will not be so lucky. Friend; it has both urban and rural areas. My district As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre council has currently budgeted to spend £887,000 on Forest (Mark Garnier), many will have to raise fares, the concessionary fare scheme this year, and it will reduce service availability, alter or cancel routes altogether receive a specific grant of £196,000 to meet part of that and consider the impact on longer-distance rural bus cost. However, my county council is concerned that, services, all of which will significantly undermine the when this spending on concessionary travel passes to concessionary scheme. I have to ask what the point is of county councils, the formula grant will be reduced by having a bus pass if there are no buses to use. more than that £691,000 shortfall—many other Members We understand that cuts in all services are a necessary have expressed similar concerns about shortfalls today—and evil, given the economic catastrophe left by the last that that would put added pressure on a budget that has Labour Government. However, the lack of clarity about already been cut by 25%. If we want to avoid rural the transfer of funding and about where the brunt of isolation, we must have a guarantee that we will not the cuts will fall is unacceptable. have a shortfall. Karen Lumley: I agree with my hon. Friend and I Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): I congratulate look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply to the the hon. Lady on securing this debate. We have heard debate in a few moments’ time. about councils that are net losers today. My local authority The Government have promised to examine smarter of West Lancashire is a net gainer and must contribute ways of administering the bus service operators grant to the county these days. subsidies, as well as a system that more clearly— Does the hon. Lady agree that concessionary travel is Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): a lifeline for many pensioners? As for rural areas, she is I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate absolutely right—there is no point in having a bus pass and I thank her for giving way. if there are no buses. Would she seek to ensure that all In the area that I represent—Harrogate and pensioners and all communities have fair and equitable Knaresborough—the actual cost to Harrogate district access to concessionary travel, especially because, as I council of concessionary fares in 2009-10 was £2.9 million say, West Lancashire is a gainer? and yet the total special and formula grant received was In my area, my local pensioners want to have the only £1.5 million, leaving the balance of £1.4 million to option of concessionary rail travel on the same basis as be met by local taxpayers. their neighbours in Southport, Wigan and Liverpool. As the grant is reallocated, with responsibility for the The pensioners of West Lancashire actually feel that service transferring to the county council, it is quite they are not getting a fair deal out of concessionary important that we allocate the grant and not the cost travel and yet it is a net gainer, so there really are swings that county councils and district councils have been and roundabouts here. facing, so that the local taxpayers of Harrogate district council are not hit twice. Karen Lumley: I agree. There are obviously swings Karen Lumley: I totally agree with my hon. Friend and roundabouts across the whole country and it would and let us hope that we can move on to the type of be nice if we had a uniform scheme whereby everybody system that he has just suggested. could benefit; it would also be nice if we had the money to do that. However, I understand that we are in very We need to look at a system that allows local communities difficult times and we have to make very difficult choices. and local authorities to determine how the funding that is allocated to their area should be spent, but I do not think that we have seen any evidence of such a system Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): I yet. I ask the Minister today to reconsider the proposed congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate changes in the light of the cumulative effects that they and I thank her very much for giving way. On that will have, not only on district councils and local authorities point, some of the current schemes that have been but on the provision of vital services for our elderly and discussed are incredibly penal against rural district councils disabled people. I also ask him to address these issues as and we could actually see many services just being a matter of urgency. totally destroyed, such as those in my district council of South Staffordshire. We must have consideration for 4.14 pm those authorities in the future, a point that she has been explaining fantastically well in this debate. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker): I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley) on Karen Lumley: I thank my hon. Friend for that securing this debate on a very important issue. This intervention. debate has probably set a record in the House of Commons Part of my constituency is rural and part of it is for the number of interventions in 15 minutes. I counted urban, so the problems facing those two parts are very 10 interventions—so 11 speeches, as it were, in 15 minutes different. That is one of the reasons why I wanted to perhaps sets an example to other Members in other speak today, because it is probably easier to get a bus in debates. Redditch than it is to get one in Wychavon, which is the Let me say right away that the coalition Government rural part of my constituency. So, as the hon. Member are committed to protecting the concessionary bus travel for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) said, it is only right scheme. We made that clear in the coalition agreement, that we treat people as fairly as we possibly can. the Chancellor reconfirmed that commitment in the 137WH Concessionary Travel24 NOVEMBER 2010 Concessionary Travel 138WH recent spending review, and the Prime Minister has The Department for Communities and Local given his own support for the continuation of the Government recently consulted on how the transfer of scheme. responsibility for concessionary travel will be taken into The scheme is of huge benefit to millions of people, account in authorities’ funding allocations from 2011-12. allowing free off-peak travel anywhere in England and That consultation was an opportunity for local authorities providing older and disabled people with greater freedom to influence decisions on the final distribution method. and independence. The concession enables older and By the way, I should say that many of the points that disabled people to access facilities both within and have been raised by Members today are actually points outside their local area, and it helps them to keep in for the Department for Communities and Local touch with family and friends. It also provides new Government, in a sense, rather than for the Department leisure opportunities, so that when eligible people are for Transport. Clearly, I will do my best to answer those visiting other parts of England on holiday they can points, but the funding allocation is through DCLG travel free on local buses at off-peak times, and it rather than DFT. encourages those people to visit popular tourist A number of authorities, especially district councils— destinations—such as Brighton and Hove—which brings including my own district council in Lewes—have expressed benefits to the wider community. concerns about the potential implications for their future About £1 billion is spent on concessionary travel financial position as a result of the administrative changes. every year. The Government currently provide funding That is the nub of the case that is being put today. for the scheme through two channels. The majority of Discussions have been taking place at official level the funding comes through the formula grant system, between the DFT and the DCLG to try to ensure that and since 2008, when the England-wide concession was the distribution method taken forward after the consultation first introduced, the rest of the funding has come through does not result in unintended consequences for authorities. a special grant from the Department for Transport. In line with the reduction in separate funding streams It is important to remember that the figures presented to local authorities, from April 2011 all funding for the in the DCLG consultation were only illustrative and scheme will be provided through formula grant, giving that the actual effect on authorities is likely to differ, local authorities the freedom and flexibility they want following final decisions on matters such as the amount in their use of funding. Overall, the Department for of funding to be transferred from lower-tier to upper-tier Transport is reducing the number of funding streams authorities for concessionary travel and the level of for local authorities from 26 to just four, which is in line floor damping to be applied to particular types of with the Government’s general trend towards localism. authority. In other words, the change will be phased in, which I think was one of the concerns expressed today. The Government are aware of how precious this My hon. Friend the Member for Redditch talked about benefit is to older and disabled people, which is why we “top-up”funds. The DCLG’s preferred method is through are focusing our efforts on assisting local authorities to damping and the provision of floors, to ensure that find efficiencies through reforms to the administrative there is not a sudden cliff-edge. I am sorry to use all and reimbursement arrangements for the scheme, rather these terrible metaphors; they are official DCLG metaphors. than cutting back on the entitlement. Only one change has been made to eligibility for the The overall amount of funding available for local scheme—to increase the age of eligibility in line with government was set out in the spending review. DCLG the changes that are taking place to the state pension will publish details shortly about the outcome of its age. In fact, that change was introduced by the previous formula grant consultation and how the overall funding Government, and I understand that it was done on the pot will be distributed among authorities. The formula basis that people are living longer, staying healthier for grant is allocated on the basis that the level provided longer and tending to stay in work until later in life. overall is sufficient to enable authorities to deliver effective That change will clearly assist with the financial local services while ensuring that they do not set excessive sustainability of the scheme. council tax increases. In a sense, local authorities will be From April 2011, responsibility for administering the more able to decide how they allocate their funds than scheme will move from lower-tier local authorities such they have hitherto been. as district councils to upper-tier local authorities such The hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon as county councils. This reform will assist in overcoming Kirby) asked about the effect on unitary authorities. I a number of problems that have been identified by local am afraid that I cannot give any specifics on that matter authorities, stakeholder groups and operators. The change until DCLG makes its announcement on the spending will enable efficiencies to be realised, through economies review, but I can say in general that all the comments of scale and by reducing the number of negotiations made today are being noted by officials and will be with bus operators. It will also make accurate funding passed back to DCLG as part of ongoing discussions by formula easier, because there will be less variation in between our Departments. I also mentioned that the the size and characteristics of authorities. Furthermore, impact will be mitigated by the use of floors to prevent it will harmonise concessionary travel and wider transport sudden changes in local government finance for individual authority responsibilities. authorities. If individual councils have had a rough deal, such as the one in Harrogate, and other councils have benefited In her introductory comments, my hon. Friend the rather more in the same county area, such problems Member for Redditch asked whether the date for the should therefore be eliminated by this scheme. I accept publication of local authority schemes could be moved that it will not solve all problems, but that is one from 1 December. I am afraid that that is not possible. problem that can be eliminated by this move from Travel concession authorities are required by the Transport districts to counties. Act 2000 to publish schemes four months before they 139WH Concessionary Travel24 NOVEMBER 2010 Concessionary Travel 140WH

[Norman Baker] values BSOG as a sensible contribution to ensuring good public transport. I therefore hope that it was not come into force. It is not possible to amend the date surprising that BSOG was retained with a cut of just without primary legislation, which she will understand 20%, which is below the average cut for revenue budgets could not be enacted before 1 December. in the spending review. That is a recognition from I am aware that concerns that have been expressed the Treasury and the Department for Transport of the about the potential impact of the administrative changes value of its contribution to bus services. I spoke to the on local discretionary concessions; I believe that the chief executive of the Confederation of Passenger Transport hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) UK, which represents the five main bus companies, mentioned it. It is not the intention that the change in after the Chancellor’s spending review. The chief executive responsibility should have any impact on the additional was hopeful that in general terms, the cut in BSOG entitlements offered by local authorities. The order laid could be absorbed without any increase in bus fares. before Parliament earlier this year to enact the change That was a good outcome. does not prevent upper-tier authorities from maintaining The concessionary fares scheme remains based on or introducing district or local level discretions where the same solid principle as ever: bus companies should needs differ within different parts of a county boundary, be no better and no worse off as a consequence of the for example. Nor does it prevent district councils from scheme. That is relevant when we consider the new providing funding to county councils to administer guidance on reimbursement arrangements. Concern was discretionary concessions on their behalf. expressed that the changes might affect the level of Furthermore, district councils will remain able to service provided. As I said, bus companies should be no consider discretionary travel schemes using the well-being better and no worse off as a consequence of their powers in the Local Government Act 2000, so in theory, dealings with local authorities. Therefore, in principle, they could introduce concessionary rail travel within irrespective of anything else, there is no reason why their areas if they wanted, irrespective of any move service levels should be affected. The concessionary from district to county. However, local authorities should fares scheme, if it delivers its outcome, should not lead take legal advice when creating, amending or withdrawing to a reduction in bus services. discretionary concessions and should also ensure that I point out that the vast majority of bus services are they comply with their own disability equality schemes. commercial rather than subsidised, so the secondary and understandable concern expressed by my hon. Friend We are assisting local authorities to make efficiencies and others that local authority budgets will be stretched, through reforms to the arrangements for reimbursing as undoubtedly they will, would in any case relate at bus operators, on which we recently published draft maximum level only to subsidised services, not commercial guidance. We held a consultation on the new concessionary services, which are independent of local authority funding. travel reimbursement guidance and will be issuing the That said, local authorities, particularly rural ones, final guidance to local authorities shortly, with a view provide subsidies for some bus services in their area, to introducing changes to the reimbursement regime for and they will want to consider how best to use their schemes beginning in April 2011. I stress that it is for funding. I hope that when it comes to difficult decisions, local authorities to decide whether they wish to take local authorities will consider—as central Government advantage of that guidance, but it will nevertheless be have done in recent months—where they can make issued by the Department for Transport in order to savings without affecting front-line services. Affecting enable local authorities to engage more effectively with front-line services through cuts is the easy option. Rather bus operators. than resorting to unfortunate cuts, local government The consultation sought views from stakeholders on can make a number of savings—for example, by combining the revised reimbursement guidance, which adopts a back-room functions—without affecting the public. I more directive approach to reimbursement calculations, hope that local authorities will approach their budgets requiring fewer data inputs and assumptions but leaving in that way. scope for local flexibility where appropriate. Analysis of I hope that I have been helpful in responding to hon. historic reimbursement by travel concession authorities Members’ comments. I recognise that the issue is indicates that councils could make up to £130 million in important—the turn-out has reinforced that—and I savings under the revised reimbursement arrangements. take it seriously. The Government’s overall intentions The proposed new guidance is based on extensive new are, first, to protect the concessionary fares scheme, and research carried out by the Institute for Transport Studies secondly, for good environmental and social reasons, to at the university of Leeds and will help to simplify the get more people on buses. We do not want to pursue current system and enable more accurate reimbursement. policies that have the opposite objective or consequence. My hon. Friend the Member for Redditch mentioned We will take back the comments that hon. Members the bus service operator grant. As she will know, all from all parties have made this afternoon and feed them sorts of wild suggestions were made in the national through to the Department for Communities and Local press that BSOG was being abolished. I made it perfectly Government, which will ultimately decide the allocation plain to the House in June or July that the Department for local authorities. 141WH 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise 142WH Partnership Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise I shall turn to why a pan-Lancashire solution is not Partnership suitable. The Pennine Lancashire LEP proposal is private sector led. The existing business leaders’ forum works alongside the east Lancashire chamber of commerce 4.28 pm and other support organisations, such as the Federation of Small Businesses and the Asian Business Federation. Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): This is a matter of The forum comprises prominent business leaders from importance in supporting growth in Pennine-Lancashire each of the six district councils and a cross-section of and the north-west of England. I intend to discuss three representatives from local high-growth companies. It is main points. First, Pennine Lancashire’s skills base and chaired by a well-respected business leader and includes great heritage make it perfectly placed to pursue a local the chamber of commerce president and chief executive, enterprise partnership. Secondly, a pan-Lancashire LEP college principals and the Lancashire Business Environment is not an appropriate solution for either east or west Association. The forum will act as a shadow LEP Lancashire and will not work in the region. Thirdly, the board. It is important that the Minister recognise the Government must recognise the unique differences between work already achieved in east Lancashire. There are those two local economies and the need for two LEPs already 150 business men and women involved in for the region, and move toward a solution involving a partnership activity within Pennine Lancashire. Pennine Lancashire LEP. When the Government invited local authorities and Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Does the hon. business leaders to submit proposals to form LEPs, we Gentleman agree that the fact that the business community in east Lancashire saw it as a perfect opportunity to is starting up two specific chambers of commerce—one build on years of existing partnership work. In his letter for Pennine Lancashire and one for Preston and west of 29 June, the Secretary of State makes three clear Lancashire—proves that the business community wants points: two specific LEPs? The business community will work on that basis and will give such a proposal its full “some local and regional boundaries do not reflect functional economic areas. We wish to enable partnerships to better reflect support. the natural economic geography of the areas they serve and hence Graham Jones: I accept that and I will come to that cover real, functional economic and travel to work areas.” point. There is no doubt that Pennine Lancashire functions as The chamber of commerce in east Lancashire has a a natural economy and fits the three points mentioned proven record of partnership development and business by the Secretary of State. support delivery, not only locally but beyond its boundaries. Economic, skills, housing and transport strategies However, its west Lancashire cousin hardly ever meets are already developed and implemented along the lines and does not function. The east Lancashire chamber of that footprint, and they have been for many years. has 800 members and covers 60,000 employees. One in With a population of more than 500,000 people, the four of the working population are covered by that area is greater in size than many major UK cities and is chamber of commerce’s businesses. It has led a programme similar in size or greater than some of the LEPs already of consultation during the development of the LEP approved. The area is characterised by a strong proposal and has circulated information to 8,000 businesses. manufacturing base and entrepreneurial people. More The chamber’s elected board of directors fully endorse than 21% of employment in the area is in the manufacturing the Pennine proposal. Last week, the shadow east sector, compared with 10% in the UK as a whole. Lancashire private sector LEP board met to finalise Self-employment rates are significantly higher than governance arrangements and to give input into the regional and national levels. Despite not having a dominant development of a regional growth fund bid. city centre, the area collectively contributes more than East Lancashire’s business leaders are getting on with £6 billion gross value added to the economy each year. the job in hand, so why are we having this debate today? Export-led growth will drive economic recovery and Despite Pennine Lancashire fulfilling every criteria set Pennine Lancashire is well placed to capitalise on that, out by the Government, the bid has yet to be approved—not with more than 700 businesses involved in significant because of the quality of the proposal or the private export activity this year. It is vital that we recognise sector backing, but because of the conflicting bids from what makes up east Lancashire. A key point is that the county, particularly the county council. It is worth there is a high degree of connectivity and interdependence highlighting that the county council’s proposal does not between the Pennine towns. More than 10,000 jobs are cover the historic area of Lancashire and that it excludes provided by Blackburn employers and the same figure Blackburn and Blackpool. They do not wish to participate. is provided by Burnley employers for residents of the That is why I describe it as a Swiss cheese proposal—it area. In terms of Pennine Lancashire districts, my leaves two great big holes in Lancashire and does not constituency provides 9,000 jobs. Some 84% of resident provide a pan-Lancashire solution. The proposal does employees work in the area and only 16% work outside not even command the support of the majority of of it. Of those people who do not access employment district councils in Lancashire. On the other hand, east outside the sub-region, almost three times as many Lancashire local authority leaders are united and have commute to Manchester as do to Preston. We are been working on a cross-boundary and cross-party talking about a very small connection to Preston. basis to promote economic growth in Pennine Lancashire Independent analysis shows that more than 200 high-growth for many years. In particular, Regenerate Pennine businesses have achieved at least three years continuous Lancashire is an exemplary example of economic growth, despite difficult economic conditions. We are co-operation. working hard as an east Lancashire region. Hundreds East Lancashire welcomed the assurance given by the more businesses have the potential to grow and provide Minister of State, Department for Communities and new jobs for the area. Local Government, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge 143WH Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise 144WH Partnership Partnership [Graham Jones] for Blackburn (Mr Straw) will remember those. Pennine Lancashire put forward its MAA and I had the pleasure Wells (Greg Clark) in his letter to the district councils’ of coming to No. 10 Downing street to sign it off with network on 25 August. The letter reiterated what has the previous Prime Minister. I do not think that the been said before: west Lancashire MAA was ever done. Why are we, in “we are not expecting County Councils to act as sole ‘building Pennine Lancashire, being held back while we wait for blocks.’ We want to see economic geographies reflected in proposals, the rest of Lancashire to come up with some sort of not administrative ones”. solution to what they need? Experience has shown that pan-Lancashire structures put in place to deal with economic issues are ineffectual Graham Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes a fantastic and that local arrangements reflecting local economic point. East Lancashire has an MAA and now west footprints work better. If we are not careful, we will Lancashire has decided to have one because east Lancashire have the unnecessary duplication of bureaucracy of has one. That reinforces the point that there are two region and locality. Indeed, only this year, Lancashire economic models and two different regions divided by partners agreed that the existing pan-Lancashire economic the M6 motorway. He also makes the point that the partnership was no longer fit for purpose and that the direction of travel to work is to Manchester or inwards; attempt to create a Lancashire-wide skills board has there is none to the west. failed. However, the private sector-led Pennine Lancashire Following that recent poll, which I think is striking, a Employment and Skills Board goes from strength to strong Government recommendation to that end would strength. quickly resolve the situation and leave Lancashire settled There are also two British Chambers of Commerce with a two-LEP solution. accredited chambers of commerce in Lancashire. This point relates to the comments made by the hon. Member The two areas are distinct, encompassing both Blackburn for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle). One chamber of commerce and Blackpool. I remind the Minister that we have is in the east and one is in the west. They both reflect the recently seen a costly legal battle between the two areas unique differences of the economies they serve. A two-LEP over Tithebarn, a retail development intended to revamp Lancashire solution is staring us in the face. A recent Preston city centre. Lancashire county council backed poll suggested that almost 70% of businesses in the west Preston city council against Blackburn with Darwen of Lancashire would back a two-LEP solution. borough council over the Tithebarn project, and £1.5 million of taxpayers’ money has been wasted in that legal Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): I congratulate battle. That is what will continue if we try to mix oil and my hon. Friend on securing the debate. None of the water, and Tithebarn will not go away in the next bids from Lancashire were accepted by the Secretary of decade. Trying to merge the two areas will result in a State. In reply to a question I asked the Secretary of terrible situation. That battle in the courts was about State, he said that the bids from Lancashire were not civic leaders but retail, and it was between businesses “overlapping…fiercely competitive and different.”—[Official Report, and, primarily, Blackburn council. 28 October 2010; Vol. 517, c. 490.] I am concerned about the fallout from Tithebarn. I I understand my hon. Friend’s preferred position on do not see how Lancashire county council has a mandate dual Lancashire bids, but local authorities in Merseyside for that proposal, and I do not know why it is bringing and Greater Manchester can work together, despite that forward. I have never seen an executive report on their areas being very different. Having two such dominant the issue from the county council, and nor have I ever and powerful LEPs in the north-west will surely make it seen the matter go to full council. I have never seen it difficult for Manchester to compete for such resources—not brought forward. It is undemocratic, and I would like to to mention when we have to compete against other see how much the county council is spending on it, as it LEPs across the country. Does my hon. Friend agree does not even have a mandate from its members in the that the predominantly Conservative administrations council chamber. It is a ridiculous bid and should be across the council need to act collectively to ensure that thrown out. It is a cynical attempt to undermine the the people we represent are not at the back of the established Pennine Lancashire LEP bid, and to use queue? issues such as Tithebarn to impose a west-of-Lancashire solution. It goes against the spirit of local economic Graham Jones: I appreciate my hon. Friend’s comments, partnerships and the Government’s wider localism agenda. but I do not accept any of them. I do not accept that Lancashire county council should not be allowed to there is a pan-Lancashire solution because Blackburn disrupt and jeopardise the economic prosperity of an refused such proposals and had the common sense to area it is meant to serve in a misguided attempt to look south to Manchester. Blackpool is hesitant on the reassert control over the existing county boundaries on matter. I shall come on to some of the conflicts that issues such as Tithebarn and others. exist. We do not have a pan-Lancashire solution; we have a proposal based on three separate areas. The In summary, Pennine Lancashire LEP is based on problem is that three proposals are being labelled as one evidence and understanding and has the support of the proposal. We will all lose out. There is no pan-Lancashire private sector, district authorities and all local MPs solution—there never has been and there never will be. from the three main political parties. Business and civic There is Lancashire county council, Blackburn borough leaders in east Lancashire all recognise what works council and Blackpool borough council. locally and have a sense of common purpose about what needs to be done, one that transcends political Gordon Birtwistle: The hon. Gentleman may remember differences. The economic capital should not be discarded, that when he was, I think, a member of Hyndburn as years of work have gone on in east Lancashire council and I was a member of Burnley council, we put involving all the authorities—of different colours—to forward multi area agreements—the right hon. Member try to drive growth in the area, which we have done. 145WH Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise 146WH Partnership Partnership It is clear that Pennine Lancashire has had a business-led Western Lancashire chamber of commerce has said and focused partnership that has developed over years. that an LEP based on the county of Lancashire is the There is nothing comparable to the west. To send everyone preferred model for chamber members and the wider back to square one to suit the county council’s agenda business community. On 2 November, Babs Murphy, would be a gross waste of taxpayers’ money and would chief executive of the chamber of commerce, said: hit growth in the region. I urge the Minister to resolve “A pan-Lancashire Local Enterprise Partnership was the only the situation, approve a Pennine Lancashire proposal as realistic model for this area, a model that had the support of the a matter of urgency and allow us to get on with creating business community.” the private sector jobs and growth the area so desperately needs. Gordon Birtwistle: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Several hon. Members rose— Lorraine Fullbrook: I am nearly finished. I hope that we can come together to protect Lancashire as a whole and as a brand. Tourism, manufacturing, agriculture Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. It is normal for and professional services should unite and, regardless the Minister to have 15 minutes to respond to the of parochial interests, work together to strengthen and debate, but I will allow other Members to speak if they enhance the great economic potential of Lancashire. I do so briefly. echo the words of Frank McKenna, chairman of the business lobbying group, Downtown Preston, who has 4.43 pm said that anything other than a pan-Lancashire bid stifles development and stifles growth. Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con): I wish to address the issue of parochial interest, which is in 4.46 pm danger of overriding the greater and more holistic approach in fostering and enhancing the economy of Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I will refer briefly Lancashire. If we allow Lancashire to be divided, we to some of the comments that have been made. I will be unable to offer a broad and integrated approach congratulate the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham to our economy. To argue that the Pennine area should Jones) on securing the debate. As he pointed out, 84% be separate because of its manufacturing base is to of the work force in the region live and work in the encourage a parochial view of business. Pennine Lancashire area, and three times as many people commute to greater Manchester than commute Graham Jones: Does the hon. Lady not accept that, to Preston. It would make far more sense for Pennine on travel to work, 84% of the people are contained in Lancashire , if we cannot go alone, to go in with the east Lancashire region, and that that is where it Greater Manchester, rather than with Preston. Going in works? Does she not accept that there is no economic with Preston would, economically, be complete nonsense. connectivity of any significant scale between the east Lancashire is an historic county and there are many and west? things that we can do by working together, and I applaud the work of the county council, but if LEPs are supposed Lorraine Fullbrook: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s to reflect natural economic areas, the case for Pennine comments but I do not agree, because I believe that Lancashire is fantastic. I hope that the Minister will set industry, the manufacturing base and professional services a decision date, and I urge him to bring the issue to a all have to be integrated across Lancashire. head.

Graham Jones: Will the hon. Lady give way? 4.47 pm The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation Lorraine Fullbrook: I would like to make progress. We and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I congratulate the hon. now live in a global economy, which demands a consolidated Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) on securing the approach in all sectors: manufacturing, tourism and debate and thank those Members who have been able to professional services. I submit that a united Lancashire contribute. Although normally only a Minister replies is a stronger economic powerhouse than one divided in such debates, I think that it has been useful to allow into separate bids identified by geography. By unifying other Members to contribute in this one. It is clear that the system, the Government are cutting red tape and there are strongly-held differing views, both within the bureaucracy.Any investor looking to invest in the north-west House and among the people whom Members represent. will automatically be attracted to a unified LEP that In that context, I want to help and have a positive offers a one-stop shop. proposal, to which I will come in a moment. For the Government, creating the right long-term Graham Jones: Will the hon. Lady give way? economic framework, whether in Lancashire or elsewhere, is an extremely important issue, and one that we take Lorraine Fullbrook: I have nearly finished. very seriously. Having once worked in Lancashire, I The Business Secretary said last weekend that not know the economic strengths across the county. BAE one of the three proposals to create the partnerships Systems, for example, has a heavy presence in the hon. had been successful, claiming that they would have Gentleman’s constituency, and it also has operations ended up competing with each other for the Government’s across the county. There is also the nuclear industry regional growth fund. Meanwhile, schemes in Manchester, and, as others have mentioned, the automotive and Merseyside, Greater Manchester and Cheshire have got paint manufacturing industries. their acts together and are getting the go-ahead. Other We believe that Lancashire would benefit—I mean unified LEPs are currently bidding for funds that could the economy of Lancashire, and there is a slight nuance be usefully deployed in Lancashire. The North and there—from the focus on economic growth that we 147WH Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise 148WH Partnership Partnership [Mr Mark Prisk] Let me look at the two bids that we are debating in this Chamber today: the pan-Lancashire and Pennine strongly feel LEPs would bring. On 28 October, we Lancashire bids. announced the first wave of successful partnerships. In fact, the 24 partnerships that have so far been cleared Graham Jones: Will the Minister accept that there is are diverse, have strong ambitions and are focused on no such thing as pan-Lancashire when we talk about the local priorities that they think matter. They are wide historic Lancashire? We are merging two concepts. in their scope and imaginative in what they are trying to Blackpool and Blackburn, particularly Blackburn, are achieve. If we look at the 24 partnerships that have so totally resistant, and Blackburn is an equal partner in far been cleared, we will see that they represent, outside local government with Hyndburn. They work together of London, more than half England’s gross value added, effectively. If Blackburn withdraws—it is insisting that 58% of the businesses and nearly 60% of the work force. it will go with Manchester—there will be no pan-Lancashire The point about LEPs is that they should enjoy solution. There is a Swiss cheese solution that covers the broad discretion so that they can choose the priorities vast majority—12 out of 14—but there is not a 14 out for action in response to local needs. A number of them of 14 solution. There is no pan-Lancashire solution. are focusing on the need to remove barriers to growth, whether they relate to transport and planning, matching Mr Prisk: I will not comment on the value of the skills provision with employers’ needs or helping fledgling groupings. They are the ones that came forward. If a companies get off the ground. group chooses to call itself pan-Lancashire, that is its judgment. Given that we have a pan-Lancashire and a As Members will know, we were unable on 28 October Pennine Lancashire, I thought that it would be easier to to clear every bid we received to become a partnership. use that shorthand so that we know what we are talking Of the three bids we received from Lancashire, we about. judged that none were ready to proceed without further On the first criterion, the pan-Lancashire bid represents work. The area covered in what I will call the pan- a strong, functional economic area. On the second Lancashire bid included Preston, Lancaster, South Ribble, criterion, it is clear that the bid enjoys strong business Chorley and West Lancashire. The Fylde coast bid support, particularly from larger employers, but the comprised Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre, and the Pennine support is not unanimous. On the third point—this is Lancashire bid originally comprised the area including the issue around ambition and added value—pan- Blackburn, Pendle, Ribble Valley, Burnley, Hyndburn Lancashire also scores well. It would deliver the critical and Rossendale. We were impressed by the commitment mass needed for Lancashire to compete with the likes of and ambition demonstrated in all three proposals. As Greater Manchester, Merseyside, and West Yorkshire, with some of the cleared bids, we saw that there was a as my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Lorraine real wish to look at how, in response to local need, Fullbrook) pointed out. It would enable a joint approach economies could be diversified. There were strong merits to be taken on key sectors such as manufacturing. In to the bids. addition, it includes Central Lancashire and Lancaster Let me turn to the problems. As they originally universities, and its scale is sufficient to bring together stood, the three overlapping bids clearly competed and adjacent areas, thereby better integrating transport and conflicted with one another. Before we could consider planning. whether they should progress, we had to be confident It is the fourth criterion—local government support—that about the structures, and ensure that they were right for is the root of the problem. Clearly, some councils falling the business community and the communities as a within the geographical scope of the bid are not signed whole. Clearly, where there is strong local disagreement up to it. among the potential members of a partnership, the possibility of making that partnership last is sharply Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Will the Minister diminished. Therefore, it has been disappointing that be good enough to acknowledge that support for the there have been continuing disagreements across the Pennine Lancashire bid and the serious concern about county, not only in local government but among the the so-called pan-Lancashire bid, arise not just from the business community. local authorities in east Lancashire, on an all-party basis, but from the majority of businesses in east Lancashire? However, I now understand that partners involved I cannot emphasise that point enough. BAE Systems, with the Lancashire bid and the Fylde coast bid have for reasons that one understands, has decided to sit on been having productive discussions about the possibility the fence, but it is not passionately in favour of one of joining forces in one partnership. I hope that their versus the other; if I were in its position, neither would I discussions reach a successful outcome. It would be be. But the East Lancashire chamber of commerce, progress, but the problem would remain: we would still which is very representative and a very good chamber of have two bids in opposition to each another in Lancashire. commerce, and all the businesses that I know of—I To be open with Members, and to allow them to see believe that this is shared by my colleagues across the exactly what the principles are, let me return to the valley—are passionately in favour of the separate east criteria with which we are working. The criteria we set Lancashire solution. In fact, none of us would be were that every partnership had to demonstrate, first, supporting that bid if they were not. that it encompasses a natural economic area; secondly, that it has the clear support of business; thirdly, that Mr Prisk: I totally understand the right hon. Gentleman’s there is an ambitious approach to transforming the point, and I respect the fact that where one is seeking area—something that adds value; and, fourthly, that it secure evidence, it is inevitably often easier and quicker has buy-in from the key councils in the designated area. for larger organisations to respond. We have been mindful 149WH Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise 24 NOVEMBER 2010 Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise 150WH Partnership Partnership of the fact that there may be smaller businesses, about On the third criterion, Pennine Lancashire argues which we do not have evidence, that may support one that its bid would give it the freedom to build on already bid or the other. I am mindful of the danger of assuming close links with Manchester. The evidence is that 17,000 that familiar names on a particular bid’s proposal somehow workers travel south to Manchester, and a far smaller mean that the whole of the business community is number into Preston. I understand the motorway network, unanimous. I am sensitive to that—it is an excellent and that one does not look west; people look south, if point. That is why we try to make sure that once we anything, and perhaps a little east. In addition, private receive bids, we dig beneath the proposals and get a sector jobs growth is expected to be focused on Manchester. better understanding of the genuine nature of the support That brings me back to a point I made earlier about or otherwise, so that we can make a value judgment. self-containment and balance. That allows me to turn to the Pennine Lancashire bid. There is then the question of the added value that On the first criterion—the question of a functional would come from a Pennine Lancashire bid. We are economic area—it has a plausible claim. I understand looking for additionality in the proposal. What is the that economic geography changes. One of the points extra element? That is one of the questions that we want about changing the regional development agencies is resolved. Like the pan-Lancashire bid, this bid failed on that, in many ways, some of their boundaries simply do the fourth question—the issue of local authority not reflect the economies that we have today, which support—as several hon. Members pointed out. have changed dramatically in the past 10 or 12 years. I am mindful of the challenge. Overall, we feel that We think that the Pennine Lancashire bid has a plausible the pan-Lancashire bid has some strong elements, but claim to being a functional economic area. that the Pennine Lancashire bid also has good arguments However, its links with other parts of Lancashire and in its favour. Neither is without its flaws. Like many Greater Manchester mean that its economic self- hon. Members, I am keen to bring the matter to a containment is not quite as strong as Lancashire’s as a conclusion without undue delay, so the Government are whole. There are pros and cons. The hon. Member for today asking partners involved in the competing bids to Hyndburn rightly made the point that a high proportion submit revised proposals no later than 8 December. We of people work in the area, but we also need to look at will write to the proposers today. Any revised proposal the potential long-term success of a partnership—we needs to be backed up with clear and compelling evidence need to think about its connectivity. The debate is to support the arguments that it presents. I hope that two-sided; nevertheless, it is true to say that there is a that clearly spells out the Government’s position. We plausible argument and a plausible element to the first want a lasting partnership, and that means that the question on whether there is a functional economic partners must agree. We cannot make that happen area. without there genuinely being such a wish. That is the On the second issue, on the evidence that we have to key point. date—I will come to how we might solve this in a moment—the Pennine Lancashire bid’s claim, in terms Graham Jones: Will the Minister give way? of business support, seems to be smaller than that of the pan-county bid. Mr Prisk: I am running out of time, and I am Hon. Members: Not true. mindful that I will be in trouble unless Mr Weir allows me to stretch beyond 5 o’clock, but I do not think that I Mr Prisk: I hope to offer hon. Members a solution to can do that. that in a moment. We want to make a prompt decision and allow both There is support from local businesses, especially sides to put their evidence firmly. That will allow us to including small and medium-sized enterprises, and I am make a judgment on which should be cleared: one, two grateful to hon. Members who highlighted that so that or neither. We will seek to make that decision if the we can make an informed judgment. I am acutely aware evidence is presented to us. of the two different chambers of commerce. I shall not Question put and agreed to. comment on the pros and cons of either, but the fact that historically they exist tells me something about the nature of the economic geography in the county—I do 5pm understand it. Sitting adjourned.

37WS Written Ministerial Statements24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS Written Ministerial TREASURY Statements Financial Regulation (Consultation Responses)

Wednesday 24 November 2010 The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban): The Government have today published a summary of responses to their consultation document, “A new approach to financial regulation: judgment, focus and BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS stability”. This document, published on 26 July 2010, set out the Government’s plans for fundamental reform of the EU Competitiveness Council (Pre-Council Statement) UK’s financial regulatory framework, providing the Bank of England with control of macro-prudential regulation and oversight of micro-prudential regulation. The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David The Government will legislate to create: Willetts): The EU Competitiveness Council will take a Financial Policy Committee in the Bank of England; place in Brussels. Andy Lebrecht, the UK’s Deputy a new Prudential Regulation Authority, as a subsidiary of Permanent Representative to the EU will represent the Bank; and the UK on industry issues on 25 November and I shall an independent consumer protection and markets authority represent UK research issues on 26 November. (CPMA). Industry agenda items will be Commission presentations In addition to a summary of consultation responses, and discussions on the Europe 2020 flagship initiatives this document confirms the Government’s decisions, “An Integrated Industrial Policy for the Globalisation that: Era” and “Innovation Union”; a lunchtime ministerial the UK Listing Authority will remain within the CPMA’s discussion on the Small Business Act; and European markets division; and space policy. Research items will comprise adoption of the FSA’s criminal enforcement powers in relation to market Council conclusions on “Innovation Union”, a progress conduct will be retained within the CPMA at this time. report on the European research area, and the budgetary position of ITER. The document also sets out the Government’s preliminary conclusions on key themes raised by respondents to the There will be five items taken under any other business consultation. for which BIS will be responsible: The Government will present more detailed policy (a) Commission presentation of the strategy for clean and legislative proposals, for further consultation early and energy efficient vehicles; in 2011. The Government intend to introduce legislation (b) Joint declaration for electric mobility in Europe; to implement their proposals in mid-2011 and the passage (c) Commission information concerning space policy of legislation is expected to take around a year. The new from its communication “An Integrated Industrial regulatory framework is anticipated to be in place by Policy for the Globalisation Era”; the end of 2012. (d) Commission and presidency information on the Copies of “A new approach to financial regulation: European and developing countries Clinical Trials summary of consultation responses” have been deposited Partnership (EDCTP); in the Libraries of both Houses and published on the (e) Information on research conferences organised by HM Treasury website. the presidency. The Government’s main aims will be: To outline UK priorities for a new EU industrial policy, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT particularly the importance of open and competitive markets. To show broad support for the approach adopted for the Innovation Union, but express caution over clarity of the Business Rates initiative in areas such as political commitments to EU spending beyond 2014 and Commission proposals to develop a European knowledge market for patents and licensing. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local To approve agenda for the Space Council and adopt the Government (Mr Eric Pickles): This Government are resolution entitled “Global challenges: taking full benefit of clear that helping small shops and businesses grow is a European space systems”. crucial part of rebalancing and rebuilding the economy. To express strong support for the Small Business Act, and We are committed to providing businesses with the help endorse SME enterprise and competitiveness as vital tools to a sustainable European recovery, economic growth and they need to prosper by cutting red tape and giving local employment. authorities the tools they need to promote economic growth. Regard European research area items as generally uncontentious for the UK, but express some concern about the Strategic Small shops and businesses are crucial to the country’s Framework For International S and T co-operation as much economy and they were hit hard by the financial legacy of this lies within national competence and there is also we were left. Discretionary discounts will give councils limited commitment by most other member states. the ability to respond to local circumstances including To ensure UK views on project management and budget supporting the local pub or post office if they are issues are made clear on budgetary issues relating to ITER. struggling or encouraging new start-up enterprises. 39WS Written Ministerial Statements24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

I am therefore pleased to announce that the Government risk management strategy for England. This is a key intend to include in the forthcoming localism Bill the step in the delivery of the Government’s commitment to necessary provisions to: “take forward the findings of the Pitt review to improve our flood allow for discretionary business rates discounts so that local defences, and prevent unnecessary buildings in areas of high authorities in England will be able to respond to local flood risk”. circumstances by reducing business rates bills; The Flood and Water Management Act requires the simplify the process for claiming small business rate relief in Environment Agency to prepare a national strategy for England by removing the legal requirement for ratepayers to flood and coastal erosion risk management. The strategy submit an application form. will be prepared taking into account the responses to The Government are already helping an estimated the consultation and will be submitted to Ministers for 500,000 ratepayers who are eligible for small business approval. Once approved, it will be laid in Parliament rate relief by doubling the normal discount for next for 40 days before it comes into effect. year, worth £390 million. Approximately 345,000 of The strategy will consider risk from all sources of those could pay no rates at all. We want to see as many flooding and coastal erosion at the national level. It will small business ratepayers as possible claim their tax cuts help us make the difficult decisions about what Government in the future and we are cutting the unnecessary red funding is used for and how much is allocated between tape. the different tasks and risk management authorities. In addition we will amend secondary legislation to It is important that this national view is complemented ensure that all eligible businesses in England automatically by strong local leadership and accountability. The strategy have their discounted bills calculated using the small will reflect the need for decisions to be made locally, by business multiplier. the communities at risk, and it will provide the framework We will also ensure through the localism Bill that all to encourage and enable local action to take place. We future business rates supplements for England and Wales, remain committed to fully funding local authority new where they fund either more or less than a third of the burdens under the Flood and Water Management Act. overall project, will have to be put to the ballot so that Up to £36 million a year will be provided directly to liable businesses can decide whether to impose the lead local flood authorities (£21 million in 2011-12 due business rate supplement upon themselves. to phasing-in). We have already announced that the localism Bill will The strategy proposes an overall aim for flood and also contain the necessary provisions to cancel certain coastal erosion risk management and high-level principles significant and unexpected backdated business rates to guide activities at both national and local levels. One bills. This will allow affected businesses, in ports and of these principles reflects Sir Michael Pitt’s suggestion, others across England, to move forward confidently, in his review of the summer 2007 floods, that additional unburdened by the crippling debt imposed by this liability. local investment in flood risk management should be The Government have also set out radical new proposals allowed and encouraged. to look at ways for local authorities to keep the business The system proposed includes a long-term investment rates they collect locally. We are determined to give framework so that we have the potential over time to councils a genuine financial stake in their local economy support local needs, build our resilience as a society and and let them target their support at local shops, pubs, give communities a bigger say in their own future. More post offices and start-up enterprises. detailed information about how this might be implemented is provided in a linked consultation available on DEFRA’s website. Accompanying consultations on draft guidance on the duty for local authorities to contribute to sustainable Gypsy and Traveller Caravan Count development and draft guidance on co-operation and the sharing of information are also being undertaken at the same time. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): Links to the consultations are provided from the The Government have on 24 November 2010 published DEFRA and Environment Agency websites at http:// the “Count of Gypsy and Traveller Caravans undertaken ww2.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/ and http://consult. on 8 July 2010”. environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/. The consultations will run for 12 weeks and it will be important that Copies have been placed in the Libraries of both responses are received from the full range of interests, Houses and can be accessed via the Department of including parliamentarians and Select Committees. Communities and Local Government website at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ corporate/statistics/caravancountjul2010 HOME DEPARTMENT

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Departmental Expenditure Limits

Flood and Coastal Erosion Risk Management Strategy (England) The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): Subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary supplementary estimate, the Home The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Office’s departmental expenditure limits for 2010-11 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): will be reduced by £27,570,000 from £10,002,634,000 to DEFRA and the Environment Agency are today publishing £9,975,064,000 and the administration budget will be a consultation for a national flood and coastal erosion reduced by £12,300,000 from £404,810,000 to £392,510,000. 41WS Written Ministerial Statements24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

Within the DEL change, the impact on resources and JUSTICE capital are as set out in the following tables:

Change New DEL £000 Cross-Undertaking in Damages (Environmental Judicial Review Cases) Non- Non- Voted voted Voted voted Total The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Resource (26,496) (1,074) 8,399,252 1,020,085 9,419,337 DEL (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I am publishing the consultation paper “Consultation on Cross-Undertakings in Damages Of which in Environmental Judicial Review Cases”on 24 November 2010. Administration (12,191) (109) 213,205 179,305 392,510 budget This is a formal consultation exercise undertaken by the Ministry of Justice to seek views on whether: Capital (4,000) 4,000 588,461 175,761 764,222 DEL1 the existing measure of judicial discretion on whether to require cross-undertakings in environmental judicial review Less 6,900 (6,900) (151,029) (57,466) (208,495) cases strikes an appropriate balance between the interests of Depreciation2 the claimant and defendant and, where appropriate, the general public interest in the circumstances of each particular Total (23,596) (3,974) 8,836,684 1,138,380 9,975,064 DEL case; and such undertakings should be required when interim relief is 1 Capital DEL includes items treated as resource in estimates and accounts but sought. which are treated as Capital DEL in budgets. 2 Depreciation, which forms part of resource DEL, is excluded from total DEL Copies of the consultation paper have been placed in since Capital DEL includes capital spending and to include depreciation of the Libraries of both Houses and the document is also those assets would lead to double counting. available online, at www.justice.gov.uk. £000’s The consultation period will be from 24 November to o/w Non o/w 24 February 2011 and I will make a further statement Total cash Admin regarding the response shortly after the consultation (a) The change in the resource element (27,570) 0 (12,300) period ends. of the DEL arises from:

Transfers from other Government 5,000 0 0 Departmental Expenditure Limits Departments:

Programme from the Security and 5,000 The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Intelligence Agencies to the Office for (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Subject to parliamentary approval Security and Counter Terrorism of any necessary supplementary estimate, the Ministry (section C) for funding counter- terrorism activities. of Justice (MoJ) and The National Archives (TNA) Transfers to other Government (32,570) 0 (12,300) total departmental expenditure limit (DEL) will be Departments: increased as follows: Total DEL for MoJ (Request for Resource 1, 2 and 3) is Programme from the UK Border (14,000) increased by £110,348,000 from £8,989,358,000 to £9,099,706,000 Agency (section D) to the Ministry of and the administration budget has increased by £5,084,000 Justice to help close the financial gap from £411,146,000 to £416,230,000. around asylum and immigration tribunals activity Total DEL for the TNA has remained unchanged. Admin from Central Services (section (12,300) (12,300) Within the Total DEL change for MoJ (Request for F) to the Ministry of Justice for shared Resource 1, 2 & 3), the impact on resource and capital accommodation costs. are as set out in the following table: Programme from the UK Border (4,340) Agency (section D) to Communities and Local Government to fund the Change New DEL Migration Impact Fund. Voted Non- Voted Non- Total Programme from the UK Border (1,180) voted voted Agency (section D) to the Scottish £’000 £’000 £’000 £’000 £’000 Government to fund the Migration Impact Fund. Resource 95,929 (28,581) 5,751,277 3,181,996 8,933,273 Programme from the Crime and (400) DEL Policing Group (section A) to the Of which: Ministry of Justice to meet the costs of the Victims’ Commissioner’s Office. Administration1 5,084 0 415,688 542 416,230 Programme from Central Services (300) Capital 49,800 (6,800) 552,925 41,405 594,330 (section F) to the Cabinet Office for DEL2 improving information strategy Depreciation3 0 0 414,979 12,918 (427,897) capability. Total 145,729 (35,381) 5,889,223 3,210,483 9,099,706) Programme from the UK Border (50) DEL Agency (section D) to the Ministry of Justice for funding the Ministerial 1The total of ’administration budget’ and ’near-cash in Resource DEL’ figures Council on deaths in custody. may well be greater than total Resource DEL, due to the definitions overlapping. 2Capital DEL includes items treated as resource in Estimates and accounts but CAPITAL Total which are treated as Capital DEL in budgets. (b) There is no change in the capital 0 3Depreciation, which forms part of Resource DEL, is excluded from the total element of the DEL. DEL since Capital DEL includes capital spending and to include depreciation of those assets would lead to double counting. 43WS Written Ministerial Statements24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS

The change in the Resource and Capital DEL for MoJ xix. A decrease in voted expenditure of £ 10,513,000 arises from: from MoJ to the Department of Health (DoH) in Resource Departmental Expenditure Limit relation to additional prisoner healthcare costs. The change in the resource element of DEL arises xx. A decrease in voted expenditure of £9,809,000 from: from MoJ to DBIS in relation to additional operating Movements in Voted Expenditure costs in respect of libraries and careers information Request for Resources 1 and advice service. Increase xxi. A decrease in voted expenditure of £4,300,000 from MoJ to Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) in i. An increase in voted expenditure of £139,000,000 relation to Compass Case Management Funding. resource in relation to the prison capacity programme Carter reserve claim. xxii. A decrease in voted expenditure of £2,600,000 ii. An increase of £18,000,000 from the Department from MoJ to CPS in relation to witness centres. for Education (DfE) in relation to the transfer of the xxiii. A decrease in voted expenditure of £1,401,000 youth offender policy Machinery of Government from MoJ to DBIS in relation to Castington and transfer. Huntercombe re-role from juvenile to adult prisons. iii. An increase of £14,000,000 from the Home Office xxiv. A decrease in voted expenditure of £500,000 (HO) to the Tribunals Service in relation to work from MoJ to CPS in relation to Corporate Manslaughter related to the Asylum Immigration Tribunals. funding. iv. An increase of £12,300,000 from the HO in relation xxv. A decrease in voted expenditure of £785,000 to accommodation costs for 2 Marsham Street. from MoJ to CPS in relation to Local Criminal v. An increase of £170,000 from the DfE in relation Boards. to funding the Review of Restraint Machinery of Government transfer. xxvi. A decrease in voted expenditure offset by an vi. An increase of £1,689,000 from the Department increase in non-voted expenditure of £16,500,000 in of Business Innovation and Skills (DBIS) in relation relation to increase in grant funding for the Criminal to the delivery of offender learning and skills in the Injuries Compensation Authority. contracted prison estate. xxvii. A decrease in voted expenditure offset by an vii. An increase of £400,000 from the HO in relation increase in non-voted expenditure of £1,200,000 in to the Victim Commissioners Office. relation to increase in grant funding for the Legal viii. An increase of £50,000 from the HO in relation Services Commission. to the advisory panel into Deaths in Custody. xxviii. A decrease in voted expenditure offset by an ix. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a increase in non-voted expenditure of £173,000 in decrease in non-voted expenditure of £2,000,000 in relation to increase in grant funding for the Parole relation to internal funding movement. Board. x. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a decrease xxix. A decrease in voted expenditure offset by an in non-voted expenditure of £637,000 in relation to increase in non-voted expenditure of £30,000 in relation internal funding movement. to increase in grant funding for the Criminal Cases xi. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a Review Commission. decrease in non-voted expenditure of £352,000 in Movements in Non-Voted Expenditure relation to internal funding movement. xii. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a Request for Resources 1 decrease in non-voted expenditure of £342,000 in Increase relation to internal funding movement. i. An increase in non-voted expenditure offset by a xiii. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a decrease in voted expenditure of £34,000,000 in relation decrease in non-voted expenditure of £199,000 in to reclassification of spends. relation to internal funding movement. xiv. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a ii. An increase in non-voted expenditure of £13,560,000 decrease in non-voted expenditure of £173,000 in from the DfE in relation to funding the LASCHS relation to internal funding movement. Programme Machinery of Government transfer. xv. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a iii. An increase in non-voted expenditure of £6,081,000 decrease in non-voted expenditure of £160,000 in from the DfE in relation to the transfer of the youth relation to internal funding movement. offender policy Machinery of Government transfer. xvi. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a iv. An increase in non-voted expenditure of £3,000,000 decrease in non-voted expenditure of £62,000 in relation from the DfE in relation to funding the Intensive to internal funding movement. Fostering Programme Machinery of Government Decrease transfer. xvii. A decrease in voted expenditure offset by an v. An increase in non-voted expenditure of £3,000,000 increase in non-voted expenditure of £34,000,000 in from the DfE in relation to funding the Review of relation to reclassification of spends. Restraint Machinery of Government transfer. xviii. A decrease in voted expenditure of £11,794,000 vi. An increase in non-voted expenditure offset by a from the MoJ to the Cabinet Office (CO) in relation decrease in voted expenditure of £16,500,000 in relation to the transfer of policy for the constitutional and to increase in grant funding for the Criminal Injuries electoral reform Machinery of Government transfer. Compensation Authority. 45WS Written Ministerial Statements24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

vii. An increase in non-voted expenditure offset by a i. An increase in non-voted expenditure of £539,572,000 decrease in voted expenditure of £1,200,000 in relation in relation to Grant to the Scottish Consolidated to increase in grant funding for the Legal Services Fund. Commission. Capital Departmental Expenditure Limit viii. An increase in non-voted expenditure offset by a The change in the capital element of the Departmental decrease in voted expenditure of £173,000 in relation Expenditure Limit arises from: to increase in grant funding for the Parole Board. Movements in Voted Expenditure ix. An increase in non-voted expenditure offset by a Request for Resources 1 decrease in voted expenditure of £30,000 in relation to increase in grant funding for the Criminal Cases Increase Review Commission. i. An increase of £43,000,000 in relation to the carter prisons capacity programme capital Carter reserve Decrease claim. x. A decrease in non-voted expenditure of £102,200,000 ii. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a decrease (Election Funding) from the MoJ to the CO in relation in non-voted expenditure of £6,000,000 in relation to to the transfer of policy for the constitutional and an internal movement in funding. electoral reform Machinery of Government transfer. iii. An increase in voted expenditure offset by a xi. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by an decrease in non-voted expenditure of £800,000 in increase in voted expenditure of £2,000,000 in relation relation to an internal movement in funding. to internal funding movement. Movements in Non-Voted Expenditure xii. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by an Request for Resources 1 increase in voted expenditure of £637,000 in relation to internal funding movement. Decrease xiii. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by an i. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by an increase in voted expenditure of £352,000 in relation increase in voted expenditure of £6,000,000 in relation to internal funding movement. to an internal movement in funding. xiv. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by an ii. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by an increase in voted expenditure of £342,000 in relation increase in voted expenditure of £800,000 in relation to internal funding movement. to an internal movement in funding. Administration Costs xv. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by an increase in voted expenditure of £199,000 in relation The movement in the administration cost limit is as a to internal funding movement. result of the following changes: xvi. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by an Request for Resources 1 increase in voted expenditure of £173,000 in relation Increase to internal funding movement. i. An increase in voted expenditure of £12,300,000 xvii. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by from the HO in relation to accommodation costs for an increase in voted expenditure of £160,000 in relation 2 Marsham Street. to internal funding movement. Decrease xviii. A decrease in non-voted expenditure offset by ii. A decrease in voted expenditure of £7,216,000 an increase in voted expenditure of £62,000 in relation from the MoJ to the CO in relation to the transfer of to internal funding movement. policy for the constitutional and electoral reform Machinery of Government transfer. Request for Resources 2 2) The National Archives are not submitting a Winter Increase Supplementary Estimate.

293W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 294W Written Answers to Natural England: Agriculture Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion Questions of members of the Natural England (a) board and (b) committees has a background in farming. [25540] Wednesday 24 November 2010 Mr Paice: The information is as follows: (a) The Natural England Board has two farmers and a smallholder out of a total of ten non-executive board members. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS (b) Natural England has no statutory committees. Other groups or committees such as the Audit and Risk Committee Animal Welfare: Circuses meet according to business needs and include membership drawn from the non-executive Board. Natural England’s Science Advisory Committee includes external representation from universities, Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, including the Centre for Rural Economy, School of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs whether she plans to bring University of Newcastle. forward legislative proposals to ban the use of wild Poultry: Animal Welfare animals in circuses. [25242] Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: A consultation on the use of wild animals Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what factors she in circuses came to an end earlier this year. We are will take into account in determining whether beak currently considering the 13,000 or so responses before trimming of laying hens can be ended in 2016. [25522] we publish a summary. In the meantime, Lord Henley has been meeting with representatives of welfare groups Mr Paice: The Beak Trimming Action Group, comprising and the circus industry. An industry body has proposed representatives from industry, welfare groups, DEFRA, a self-regulatory system but no decisions have been scientific and veterinary professions will be reconvened made. at the start of next year. It will be tasked with establishing an action plan to work towards a ban on routine beak Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 trimming of laying hens in 2016. The review will consider results of on-going research projects that are investigating Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, practical and realistic ways to rear laying hens without Food and Rural Affairs what her Department’s policy is the need for beak trimming and will consider the outcome on bringing forward legislative proposals to extend the of industry study tours to those European countries application of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 to private where they do not beak trim. As the impact of feather dwellings. [25244] pecking is greatest in systems of management which do not house birds in cages, the risk to the welfare of laying Mr Paice: Earlier this year, DEFRA and the Home hens from injurious pecking is likely to increase after Office published a public consultation on dangerous the ban on conventional cages comes into force on dogs and how to encourage responsible dog ownership. 1 January 2012. A review in 2015 will allow producers A number of proposals were raised during the consultation, time to increase their experience of managing flocks in including the issue of whether to extend the criminal alternative systems. offence of allowing a dog to be dangerously out of Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for control to private places. The consultation closed on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will publish 1 June and received 4,250 responses. We are currently the findings of her Department’s visit to countries that analysing these responses and will publish a summary do not have beak trimming of laying hens; and if she of the responses to the consultation very soon. will make a statement. [25523] Dogs: Electric Shock Equipment Mr Paice: The UK laying hen industry will be responsible for conducting visits to those European countries who Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for do not beak trim. The findings of the study tours will be Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent presentedtotheBeakTrimmingActionGroup,whichcomprises assessment she has made of the merits of introducing a representatives from industry, welfare groups, DEFRA, ban on the use of shock collars. [26002] scientific and veterinary professions, which will be reconvened at the start of next year to establish an action plan to Mr Paice: There are no current plans to ban the use work towards a ban of routine beak trimming of laying of electronic training aids for animals. The Animal hens in 2016. The industry experiences and results of Welfare Act 2006 already makes it an offence to cause on-going research will be fed in to the review in 2015. unnecessary suffering to any animal and to treat an animal in a way that fails to meet its welfare needs. It also provides additional powers to prohibit the use of HOME DEPARTMENT any such equipment through secondary legislation if Antisocial Behaviour Orders considered necessary. However, we recognise the need for further research Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for the into this issue. DEFRA is currently carrying out a study Home Department how many antisocial behaviour into whether electronic training collars cause unnecessary orders were issued in each police authority area in each suffering, and this is expected to be completed next of the last five years for which figures are available. year. [26105] 295W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 296W

James Brokenshire: The latest available data on the 1 Includes ASBOs issued on application by magistrates courts acting number of antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued, in their civil capacity and county courts, which became available on 1 April 1999 and ASBOs made following conviction for a relevant cover the period 1 April 1999 to 31 December 2008. The criminal offence at the Crown court and at magistrates courts (acting number of ASBOs issued at all courts in each criminal in their criminal capacity), which became available on 2 December 2002. justice system (CJS) area in each year between 2004 and 2 Prior to the creation of the Ministry of Justice on 9 May 2007, 2008 is shown in the following table. CJS areas are numbers of ASBOs issued were reported to Home Office by the Court coterminous with police force/police authority areas. Service. Note: Antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued at all courts1 in each Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate criminal justice system (CJS) area, as reported to the Ministry of and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have Justice2 by the Court Service, in each year, 2004-08, England and been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by Wales the courts. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data Number collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into CJS area 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 account when those data are used. Source: Avon and 89 61 34 29 33 Prepared by Justice Statistics Analytical Services within the Ministry Somerset of Justice. Bedfordshire 18 40 31 25 18 Crime: Young People Cambridgeshire 26 50 31 20 34 Cheshire6298433727Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Cleveland 28 60 80 65 51 Home Department how many crimes were reported to Cumbria 31 49 31 27 37 have been committed by (a) people under the age of Derbyshire 46 60 41 24 30 criminal responsibility, (b) people with a mental health Devon and 81 73 46 30 29 disorder and (c) members of the armed forces in each Cornwall of the last three years. [24390] Dorset 36 19 15 13 9 Durham 31 27 26 19 41 James Brokenshire: The requested information is not Dyfed Powys 8 15 8 8 2 available centrally. The recorded crime data collected by Essex7988322815the Home Office concentrates solely on the numbers of Gloucestershire 26 30 21 16 19 offences recorded and detected by the police and no Greater 446 532 358 269 215 details on the offender are included. London Greater 430 458 225 178 151 Offensive Weapons: Crime Manchester Gwent2733492716Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for the Hampshire 100 112 66 90 74 Home Department how many offences involving offensive Hertfordshire 40 73 35 32 16 weapons were recorded in each police authority area in Humberside 72 138 115 78 70 each year between 2005 and 2009. [26106] Kent 54 44 29 26 13 Lancashire 126 148 115 102 53 James Brokenshire: Available data relate only to (a) Leicestershire 45 71 42 30 31 offences where firearms have been fired, used as a blunt Lincolnshire 12 20 17 8 9 instrument against a person or used as a threat and (b) Merseyside 96 128 94 87 117 offences that involved knives and sharp instruments. Norfolk 43 46 27 30 36 From the information collected on recorded crime it is North Wales 42 103 87 78 53 not possible to identify those offences where other North 41 34 27 25 12 offensive weapons were used, since details of the individual Yorkshire circumstances of offences are not recorded. Northamptonshire 39 32 13 22 40 The available information for firearm offences relates Northumbria 75 181 70 38 37 to offences recorded between 2004-05 and 2008-09 and Nottinghamshire 91 126 70 84 70 is provided in table A. Data for 2009-10 will be published South Wales 46 64 54 50 54 in January 2011. South 80 104 83 49 47 Table A: Firearm offences (excluding air weapons) by police force Yorkshire area, English regions and Wales 2004-05 to 2008-09 Staffordshire 59 59 35 34 30 Recorded crime Suffolk 78 53 35 50 25 Police force Surrey4850261713area 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Sussex9795734946Cleveland 37 41 19 15 34 Thames 77 57 44 54 43 Durham2118144522 Valley Northumbria 182 137 111 78 51 Warwickshire 28 30 27 21 15 North-east 240 196 144 138 107 West Mercia 58 72 40 33 65 region West 243 307 189 181 197 Midlands Cheshire6171415961 West 305 260 217 209 130 Cumbria 26 18 21 18 28 Yorkshire Greater 1,268 1,200 993 1,160 827 Wiltshire 20 22 4 7 4 Manchester England and 3,479 4,122 2,705 2,299 2,027 Lancashire 259 372 364 349 207 Wales 297W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 298W

Table A: Firearm offences (excluding air weapons) by police force Table A: Firearm offences (excluding air weapons) by police force area, English regions and Wales 2004-05 to 2008-09 area, English regions and Wales 2004-05 to 2008-09 Recorded crime Recorded crime Police force area 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Police force area 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Merseyside 491 485 410 398 353 North-west 2,105 2,146 1,829 1,984 1,476 region Dyfed-Powys 40 21 17 25 7 Humberside 174 108 117 58 62 Gwent 8553334736 North 13 15 14 17 11 Yorkshire North Wales 60 88 98 53 42 South 185 301 211 202 144 South Wales 104 71 67 84 54 Yorkshire West Yorkshire 318 355 319 332 287 Wales 289 233 215 209 139 Yorkshire and 690 779 661 609 504 the Humber region England and 11,069 11,088 9,645 9,865 8,208 Wales Derbyshire 149 109 83 70 75 Leicestershire 123 89 109 134 127 The Home Office has collected additional data on Lincolnshire 90 72 45 41 16 selected offences involving knives and sharp instruments Northamptonshire 113 128 159 164 112 since April 2007. Thus, there are no data available prior Nottinghamshire 303 277 196 240 204 to 2007-08. Please note that the 2007-08 figures are not East midlands 778 675 592 649 534 comparable to 2008-09 and 2009-10 due to the expanded region offence coverage in those years. The available information is provided in tables B1 and B2. Staffordshire 144 128 94 123 44 Table B1: Knife and sharp instrument offences by police force area, Warwickshire 73 80 90 107 56 English regions and Wales 2007-081 West Mercia 151 115 58 124 79 Recorded crime West midlands 959 946 979 974 987 Police force area2 2007-08 West midlands 1,327 1,269 1,221 1,328 1,166 region Cleveland 169 Durham 93 Bedfordshire 94 103 86 83 64 Northumbria 351 Cambridgeshire 50 34 24 30 34 North-east region 613 Essex 193 280 255 260 176 Hertfordshire 139 114 89 112 68 Cheshire 224 Norfolk 23 29 34 43 29 Cumbria 73 Suffolk 59 58 42 38 25 Greater Manchester 2,214 East of 558 618 530 566 396 Lancashire 361 England region Merseyside 757 North-west region 3,629 London, City 31433 of Humberside 267 Metropolitan 3,694 3,883 3,327 3,396 3,087 North Yorkshire 66 London region 3,697 3,884 3,331 3,399 3,090 South Yorkshire 381 West Yorkshire 915 Hampshire 148 85 122 100 80 Yorkshire and the Humber 1,629 Kent 100 142 92 82 93 region Surrey 6387607066 Sussex 6785846965Derbyshire 215 Thames Valley 437 401 332 322 214 Leicestershire 294 South-east 815 800 690 643 518 Lincolnshire 71 region Northamptonshire 216 Nottinghamshire 548 Avon and 196 167 138 116 95 East midlands region 1,344 Somerset Devon and 189 174 132 111 70 Staffordshire 219 Cornwall Warwickshire 160 Dorset 49 27 28 21 16 West Mercia 144 Gloucestershire 87 77 65 43 52 West midlands 2,648 Wiltshire 49 43 69 49 45 West midlands region 3,171 South-west 570 488 432 340 278 region Bedfordshire 316 299W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 300W

Table B1: Knife and sharp instrument offences by police force area, Table B2: Knife and sharp instrument offences by police force area, English regions and Wales 2007-081 English regions and Wales 2008-09 and 2009-101 Recorded crime Recorded crime Police force area2 2007-08 Police force area2 2008-09 2009-10

Cambridgeshire 100 North-west region 4,998 4,155 Essex 289 Hertfordshire 222 Humberside 369 357 Norfolk 67 North Yorkshire 225 205 Suffolk 118 South Yorkshire 648 571 East of England region 1,112 West Yorkshire 1,273 1,311 Yorkshire and the 2,515 2,444 London, City of 19 Humber region Metropolitan 9,937 London region 9,956 Derbyshire 327 317 Leicestershire 476 412 Hampshire 388 Lincolnshire 169 176 Kent 327 Northamptonshire 396 339 Surrey 114 Nottinghamshire 940 767 Sussex 274 East midlands region 2,308 2,011 Thames Valley 633 South-east region 1,736 Staffordshire 455 439 Warwickshire 223 157 West Mercia 341 318 Avon and Somerset 360 West midlands 3,682 3,216 Devon and Cornwall 288 West midlands 4,701 4,130 Dorset 47 region Gloucestershire 85 Wiltshire 140 Bedfordshire 458 390 South-west region 920 Cambridgeshire 402 360 Essex 730 679 Dyfed-Powys 76 Hertfordshire 177 128 Gwent 130 Norfolk 130 201 North Wales 108 Suffolk 200 178 South Wales 585 East of England 2,097 1,936 region Wales 899

London, City of 26 10 British Transport Police 269 Metropolitan 12,233 12,560 London region 12,259 12,570 England and Wales 25,278 1 Police recorded knife and sharp instrument offences data are submitted via an additional special collection. Other offences exist Hampshire 592 582 that are not shown in this table that may include the use of a knife or Kent 553 377 sharp instrument. In this table ‘offences involving a knife’ refers to Surrey 130 50 the use of a knife or sharp instrument. Total of selected serious Sussex 728 681 offences only include the five offence types shown in this table. 2 Four police forces include unbroken bottle and glass offences in Thames Valley 1,221 1,206 their returns, which are outside the scope of this special collection. South-east region 3,224 2,896 As such, data for these forces are not directly comparable to data for other forces. The four forces are: West Midlands, Surrey, Sussex and the British Transport Police. Avon and Somerset 935 790 Devon and 395 400 Table B2: Knife and sharp instrument offences by police force area, Cornwall English regions and Wales 2008-09 and 2009-101 Dorset 164 176 Recorded crime Gloucestershire 181 157 Police force area2 2008-09 2009-10 Wiltshire 200 157 Cleveland 207 227 South-west region 1,875 1,680 Durham 152 120 Northumbria 470 401 Dyfed-Powys 95 73 North-east region 829 748 Gwent 126 156 North Wales 136 97 Cheshire 341 276 South Wales 571 439 Cumbria 87 98 Wales 928 765 Greater Manchester 2,835 2,361 Lancashire 843 622 British Transport 346 231 Merseyside 892 798 Police 301W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 302W

Table B2: Knife and sharp instrument offences by police force area, Post Office English regions and Wales 2008-09 and 2009-101 Recorded crime Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Police force area2 2008-09 2009-10 Scotland what steps his Department has taken to identify those of its services that could be provided England and Wales 36,080 33,566 through the Post Office network. [25764] 1 Police recorded knife and sharp instrument offences data are submitted via an additional special collection. Other offences exist David Mundell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer that are not shown in this table that may include the use of a knife or given to the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon sharp instrument. In this table ‘offences involving a knife’ refers to Lewis) to question 24941 on 22 November 2010, Official the use of a knife or sharp instrument. Total of selected serious offences only include the five offence types shown in this table. Report, column 2W. 2 Four police forces include unbroken bottle and glass offences in their returns, which are outside the scope of this special collection. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for As such, data for these forces are not directly comparable to data for Scotland what the monetary value was of contracts other forces. The four forces are: West Midlands, Surrey, Sussex and between his Department and (a) Post Office Ltd and the British Transport Police. (b) Royal Mail in (i) 1997-98 and (ii) each year since UK Border Agency: Personnel 2004-05. [25765]

Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home David Mundell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Department how many staff she expects to be employed given to the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon by the UK Border Agency in each of the four years of Lewis) to question 24940 on 22 November 2010, Official the comprehensive spending review period. [24003] Report, column 2W.

Mrs May [holding answer 15 November 2010]: The Summer Time priority of the agency remains to secure the border and to control migration while we play our part in reducing the public deficit. The agency’s overall commitment is Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for to cut its budget by up to 20% in real terms over the next Scotland pursuant to the contribution by the Minister four years and reduce headcount by around 5,200. of State for Scotland of 16 November 2010, Official Detailed budgets have not yet been finalised and so I Report, column 865, on summer time (Scotland), what cannot provide a four-year profile. evidence his Department evaluated in determining that public opinion in Scotland on double summer time is Vetting changing. [25707]

Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for the David Mundell: The evidence mentioned above was Home Department pursuant to the answer of 9 June introduced to the debate by my hon. Friend the Member 2010, Official Report, column 316, on voluntary for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris). organisations, what progress she has made in reviewing the criminal records vetting regime. [25822] Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland pursuant to the contribution by the Minister Lynne Featherstone: I refer my hon. Friend to the of State for Scotland of 16 November 2010, Official written ministerial statement made by the Home Secretary Report, column 863, on summertime (Scotland), what on 22 October 2010, Official Report, columns 77-78WS. methodology he used to determine that the majority of This statement announced terms of reference for the inhabitants of Scotland are opposed to the implementation review of the Criminal Records Regime and the Vetting of double summer time. [25804] and Barring Scheme. The initial findings will be announced early in the new year. David Mundell: The implementation of single double summer time in the UK has remained a perennial debate since the last experiment to alter British summer SCOTLAND time was abandoned four decades ago. As I said recently in the House, it remains the case that those who support Daylight Saving Bill the campaign to adopt single double summer time in the United Kingdom have to win the argument with the Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for public in Scotland, with the body politic and with civic Scotland what (a) formal and (b) informal consultation society. his Department has undertaken on the provisions of the Daylight Saving Bill; and if he will make a statement. [25762] TRANSPORT David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland has written to, and remains in contact with, a number of organisations representing groups most likely to be Office of Traffic Commissioners affected by any change to British summer time, to seek their views. As the Prime Minister has already made Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for clear, there can be no change to existing policy without Transport whether he plans to amend the (a) role and the agreement of all parts of the United Kingdom, (b) responsibilities of the Office of Traffic Commissioners. including Scotland. That agreement is not in place. [23279] 303W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 304W

Mike Penning: We will be completing implementation The Solicitor-General: Nothing. of the Local Transport Act 2008 provisions that will The Crown Prosecution service sent a senior Crown create a ‘pool’ of Traffic Commissioners that are able to Prosecutor to the World Cup with the English police act in all traffic areas and amend the grounds on which delegation. Their role was to liaise with South African an individual Commissioner can be removed from office. authorities on tackling violent disorder offences involving Roads: Accidents English nationals. The Home Office funded the prosecutor’s travel, accommodation and expense costs. Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many dogs were reported to have been killed or injured in a road traffic incident in England COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT and Wales in each of the last five years. [26519] Departmental Grants Mike Penning: The Department for Transport collates information on animals identified as carriageway hazards Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for in reported personal injury road accidents. However, Communities and Local Government how much funding information on the types of animals involved in accidents his Department has allocated in grants for (a) 2009-10 and whether they are killed or injured, is not collected. and (b) 2010-11; and how much such funding he plans to allocate for 2011-12. [25816] The number of reported personal injury road accidents involving animals in the carriageway, in England and Robert Neill: The total maximum amounts payable Wales, 2005-09, is shown in the following table. by the Department for Communities and Local Reported personal injury road accidents involving an animal1 in the Government for grants above £1 million are: carriageway: England and Wales 2005-09 Accidents £ million

2005 947 2009-10 37,137.1 2006 977 2010-11 34,442.7 2007 909 2008 769 The totals for formula grant paid by my Department 2009 760 (which comprises revenue support grant and national 1 Excludes ridden horses. non-domestic rates) for 2011-12 onwards were published in table 2.8 of the spending review 2010 document. The Roads: Safety other grants for 2011-12 and 2012-13 which have so far been confirmed to local authorities were outlined in Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for table 2 of my reply to the hon. Member of 23 November Transport whether he plans to update the 10-year Road 2010, Official Report, columns 198-200W. Details of Safety Strategy; and if he will make a statement. other grant programmes will be released in due course. [21250] Departmental Lobbying Mike Penning: The UK already has some of the safest roads in the world, but the coalition is considering Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for how to make them even safer. We will produce a new Communities and Local Government how much his strategic framework for road safety that sets out the Department’s agencies and non-departmental public Government’s vision for road safety, national measures, bodies spent from the public purse on influencing and how we will work with others to achieve this. We public policy through (a) employing external (i) public will be discussing this with stakeholders and intend to affairs companies, (ii) strategic consultancies and publish a strategy early next year. (iii) corporate communications firms, (b) external marketing and (c) other activities in each of the last Transport: Aberdeenshire 10 years. [23756]

Miss Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Robert Neill: The information requested is not held how many major transport infrastructure projects have centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate been completed in the Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire cost. However, as part of the new Government’s local authority areas since 1980. [26025] transparency agenda, all spending over £500 can be found online on the departmental website for 2008-09 Norman Baker: The provision of such infrastructure onwards. I also refer my hon. Friend to the Secretary of projects is devolved to the Scottish Government. This is State’s press release of 5 August 2010 which highlighted therefore a matter for Scottish Ministers. the unacceptable spending by government arms’ length bodies on lobbying government and HM Opposition. We have instructed these bodies to cancel their lobbying contracts. ATTORNEY-GENERAL Departmental Regulation Football: South Africa Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Graham Evans: To ask the Attorney-General how Communities and Local Government (1) what regulations much his Department spent on attendance at the 2010 sponsored by his Department have been revoked in the FIFA World Cup. [26152] last six months; [24378] 305W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 306W

(2) what new regulations sponsored by his Department My Department does not estimate the cost of answering have been introduced through (a) primary legislation written questions. For information on the annual indexation and (b) statutory instrument in the last six months. exercise of the cost of parliamentary questions conducted [24493] by HM Treasury, I refer my hon. Friend to the written ministerial statement made by the then Exchequer Secretary Robert Neill: We are committed to removing needless (Sarah McCarthy-Fry) on 20 January 2010, Official bureaucracy and unnecessary burdens contained within Report, column 15WS. existing secondary legislation and other forms of regulation. We have already announced various changes including Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for the suspension and impending abolition of Home Communities and Local Government how many and Information Packs, the abolition of Comprehensive what proportion of questions tabled to the Secretary Area Assessment and the intended consolidation of of State for ordinary written answer (a) in Session planning (development control) procedures and building 2009-10 and (b) since May 2010 were answered within regulations. The forthcoming Localism Bill will contain (i) seven days and (ii) 14 days of tabling; how many such additional measures to free local government from central questions tabled between May 2010 and 12 November and regional control so that it can deliver services 2010 remained unanswered by 18 November 2010; and according to local needs. These measures will include what estimate he has made of the average cost to his radical reform of the planning system to give Department of answering a question for ordinary written neighbourhoods greater ability to determine the shape answer within seven days of tabling in the latest period of the places in which their inhabitants live. for which figures are available. [25960] New regulatory burdens on businesses are given full consideration through the new One-In-One-Out process, Robert Neill: The Government have committed to which ensures that the costs imposed by new regulations providing the Procedure Committee with sessional statistics are offset by reductions elsewhere. in a standard format on the time taken to respond to written parliamentary questions for the 2009-10 Session. New burdens on local government are also fully This information will be submitted to the Procedure taken into account through our New Burdens Assessments. Committee shortly. Later this year we will publish our Regulatory Forward In the period 25 May to 12 November 2010, my Programme which will provide details of all forthcoming Department received 1,016 ordinary written questions regulatory and deregulatory measures. of which 948 (94%) were answered within five sitting With this in mind, in the last six months 40 statutory days. Five of the 1,016 questions remain unanswered. instruments (orders and regulations) have been revoked Information on the number of ordinary written questions in full and seven partially revoked. A list of all revocations answered within seven and 14 days could not be provided has been placed in the Library of the House. without incurring disproportionate cost. No new primary legislation has been introduced and My Department does not estimate the cost of answering 21 new statutory instruments have been introduced, written questions. For information on the annual indexation many of which are deregulatory. A table with details of exercise of the cost of parliamentary questions conducted the statutory instruments that have been introduced has by HM Treasury, I refer my hon. Friend to the written been placed in the Library of the House. ministerial statement made by the then Exchequer Secretary (Sarah McCarthy-Fry) on 20 January 2010, Official Departmental Written Questions Report, column 15WS. Fire Services: Working Hours Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many and Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for what proportion of questions tabled to the Secretary of Communities and Local Government if he will maintain State for written answer on a named day were answered the exemption for full-time and retained duty system substantively before or on the day named for answer firefighters from the European Union Working Time (a) in Session 2009-10 and (b) since May 2010; how Directive; and if he will make a statement. [26538] many such questions tabled between May 2010 and 12 November 2010 had not received a substantive Robert Neill: This Government committed in the answer by 18 November 2010; and what estimate he has coalition agreement to limit the application of the Working made of the average cost to his Department of Time Directive in the United Kingdom. Whole-time answering a question for written answer on a named and retained duty system firefighters do not have an day on the day named for answer in the latest period exemption from the Directive apart from in specified for which figures are available. [25959] circumstances, but like other UK workers have the flexibility to opt out of the 48-hour limit to the working Robert Neill: The Government have committed to week set by the Directive. The Government recognises providing the Procedure Committee with sessional statistics that losing the opt-out could have a major impact on in a standard format on the time taken to respond to fire and rescue services and will continue to stand firm written parliamentary questions for the 2009-10 Session. on its retention. This information will be submitted to the Procedure Committee shortly. Housing: Construction In the period 25 May to 12 November 2010, my Department received 374 written questions for answer Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for on a named day of which 325 (87%) were answered on Communities and Local Government if he will bring the due date. All 374 questions have now been answered. forward proposals for alternative measures to replace 307W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 308W regional housing grants for the purpose of supporting Peterborough City Council: Grants and Non-domestic regional housing; and what recent representations he Rates has received on the use of funds from existing regional housing grants. [25595] Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) how much Grant Shapps: In the spending review we announced Peterborough city council unitary authority received in investment of over £6.5 billion in housing. This includes revenue support grant in each of the last five years for over £2 billion to make existing social homes decent and which figures are available; [25921] almost £4.5 billion investment in new affordable housing (2) how much Peterborough city council collected in to deliver up to 150,000 affordable homes. We are giving national non-domestic rates in each of the last five housing associations much more flexibility on rents and years for which figures are available. [26021] use of assets, so our aspiration is to deliver as many as homes as possible through our investment and reforms. Robert Neill: The following table shows both (a) the We will be publishing details on the new delivery model amount national non-domestic rates collected by, and in the new year. (b) the amount of revenue support grant received by On 11 November we announced councils and their Peterborough between 2005-06 and 2009-10. The data arm’s length management organisations that have a are shown in £ million. significant backlog of decent homes work will be eligible for funding from a new single decent homes funding Revenue support NNDR collected grant (£ million) stream. The Homes and Communities Agency are consulting on proposals for allocating this funding. 2005-06 67.2 101.6 Funding for private sector renewal, formerly part 2006-07 75.6 10.0 of the regional housing pot, is now a matter for local 2007-08 75.7 9.3 authorities. We have given them significantly greater 2008-09 83.0 8.7 freedom and control over budgets. They can continue to 2009-10 83.0 14.0 provide this support where it fits with local priorities. The data are as reported by local authorities. The We have also launched a consultation on the New national non-domestic rates figures are the net yield Homes Bonus which will commence in April 2011 and figures taken from the national non-domestic rates will match fund the additional council tax on new (NNDR3) outturn forms submitted annually by all homes and properties brought back into use for each of billing authorities in England. The net yield is the the following six years with an additional amount for amount of national non-domestic rates collected by an affordable homes. The consultation is available at: authority before the deduction of collection costs i.e. www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/ losses in collection, repayments in respect of previous newhomesbonusconsult years and the allowance for the cost of collection. This will be a powerful, simple, transparent and permanent The data for revenue support grant are taken from incentive for local authorities to increase their aspirations the Budget Requirement (BR1) forms submitted annually for housing growth. We have set aside £1 billion of by all billing authorities in England. The revenue support funding and further funding will come from formula grant figure for 2005-06 contains an element of funding grant. for schools which was removed in subsequent years and paid as the dedicated schools grant. Some representations in the form of ministerial correspondence have been received in relation to private sector renewal funding. Private Rented Housing

Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many properties Communities and Local Government if he will make it in (a) England, (b) Hyndburn and (c) Haslingden are his policy that any funding awarded to county councils let by private landlords. [26188] under the New Homes Bonus Scheme is spent on projects approved by the district council in whose area the new Grant Shapps: The latest data available, as set out in homes will be built; and if he will make a statement. the English Housing Survey (EHS) Housing Stock Report [25884] 2008, published on 27 October 2010, show that approximately 3,300,000 properties are privately rented Grant Shapps: The Government do not propose to in England. The figures are not broken down to individual tell local authorities how and when to spend the funding local authority level. received from the New Homes Bonus. The Government The full survey report is available on the DCLG expects local authorities to work closely with their website at: communities—and in particular the neighbourhoods www.communities.gov.uk most affected by growth—to understand their priorities for investment and to communicate how the money will Radioactive Waste be spent and the benefits it will bring. We are currently consulting on the New Homes Bonus Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme design: Communities and Local Government what his policy is www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/ on the granting of planning permission for new low-level newhomesbonusconsult nuclear waste disposal sites. [26063] 309W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 310W

Robert Neill: Current planning policy on waste is set and what estimate he has made of the average cost to out in Planning Policy Statement 10: “Sustainable Waste his Department of answering a question for written Management”. A planning application for a new low answer on a named day on the day named for answer in level nuclear waste disposal site will be determined in the latest period for which figures are available; [25939] accordance with the statutory development plan for the (2) how many and what proportion of questions area, unless material considerations indicate otherwise. tabled to the Secretary of State for ordinary written DECC will shortly publish for consultation a new answer (a) in Session 2009-10 and (b) since May 2010 strategy for the management of low level radioactive were answered within (i) seven days and (ii) 14 days of waste from the non-nuclear industry. tabling; how many such questions tabled between May 2010 and 12 November 2010 remained unanswered by 18 November 2010; and what estimate he has made of the average cost to his Department of answering a JUSTICE question for ordinary written answer within seven days Civil Litigation of tabling in the latest period for which figures are available. [25940] Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment he has made of the recommendations Mr Djanogly: The Government have committed to made by the review of civil litigation costs conducted by providing the Procedure Committee with sessional statistics Lord Justice Jackson. [25997] in a standard format on the time taken to respond to written parliamentary questions for the 2009-10 Session. Mr Djanogly: As the Secretary of State for Justice This information will be submitted to the Procedure informed the House on 15 November 2010, Official Committee shortly. Report, column 659, the Government have now published In the current Session since May 2010 MoJ has the consultation paper, ‘Proposals for Reform of Civil answered 185 named day questions, of those 183 (98.92%) Litigation Funding and Costs: Implementation of Lord were answered on the day named for answer. Eight of Justice Jackson’s Recommendations’. The Government the 185 were answered by either giving an undertaking accept Lord Justice Jackson’s assessment that the costs to write or stating the answer would partially or fully of civil litigation are too high and that the current breach the disproportionate cost threshold. There were arrangements impact disproportionately on defendants. no outstanding named day questions on 18 November Preliminary impact assessments were published alongside 2010. During the same session MOJ has also answered the consultation paper, available at: 1,123 questions for ordinary written answer, of those www.justice.gov.uk 1,086 (96.71%) were answered within five sitting days A final impact assessment will be published alongside and 29 (2.58%) were answered within 10 sitting days. the Government response next spring. There were two questions unanswered on 18 November 2010. Departmental Food The figures have been drawn from MoJ’s PQ database, which, as with any large scale recording system, is Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. whether his Department has guidelines on ensuring The average cost for answering ordinary written and that food used for his Department’s official functions is named day questions in MoJ is not held. However, Her of domestic origin. [25550] Majesty’s Treasury conducts an annual indexation exercise of the cost of written and oral parliamentary questions Mr Djanogly: Where catering requirements have been so as to ensure that these average costs are increased in approved, food must be purchased from an approved line with increases in underlying costs. The estimated MoJ food contractor. All products supplied to the MOJ cost for written questions that have applied since must comply with all current and subsequent relevant 20 January 2010 is £154. UK and EU legislation, regulations and directives. The legal framework governing public procurement is designed to ensure that public procurement is fair, Domestic Violence transparent and not used to discriminate by setting up barriers to free trade. John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice However, where United Kingdom supplies can meet what average period elapsed between the issue of a the specifications set by the Ministry of Justice will avail community order with a condition of a domestic of these products wherever this can be achieved without violence programme and the commencement of that increasing overall costs. programme in each probation area in the latest period Departmental Written Questions for which figures are available. [26098]

Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Blunt: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Justice (1) how many and what proportion of questions I gave to the hon. Member for Maidstone and The tabled to the Secretary of State for written answer on a Weald (Mrs Grant) on 22 October 2010, Official Report, named day were answered substantively before or on column 905W. the day named for answer (a) in Session 2009-10 and Waiting times for programmes are managed locally (b) since May 2010; how many such questions tabled by each probation trust and prison. This information is between May 2010 and 12 November 2010 had not not collated centrally and could be obtained only at received a substantive answer by 18 November 2010; disproportionate cost by obtaining information held on 311W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 312W offender files or on local data systems, validating it, and has received reports of the killing of two further journalists, then collating it in a common format in order to provide although these reportedly had no connection with the a response. victims’ work. We are concerned about the safety of human rights Prisons: Drugs defenders in Colombia, including journalists. We regularly raise our concerns with the Colombian Government, Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for including at a recent meeting between our ambassador Justice how many offenders serving a prison sentence and the head of the Vice President’s Unit for Human (a) are receiving and (b) have received treatment for Rights and International Humanitarian Law. drug addiction. [26695] Departmental Written Questions Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice does not record data in the form requested. However prison and health Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for records show that in 2009-10: Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many and health services delivered 60,067 clinical interventions for drug what proportion of questions tabled to the Secretary of addiction in prisons; State for written answer on a named day were answered CARAT (Counselling, Assessment, Referral, Advice and substantively before or on the day named for answer Throughcare) services performed 66,459 initial assessment for (a) in Session 2009-10 and (b) since May 2010; how adult prisoners; many such questions tabled between May 2010 and 10,206 prisoners commenced accredited drug treatment 12 November 2010 had not received a substantive programmes; and answer by 18 November 2010; and what estimate he has 6,586 young people were assessed by the Young People’s made of the average cost to his Department of Substance Misuse Service (YPSMS). answering a question for written answer on a named These data are drawn from administrative IT systems day on the day named for answer in the latest period and are subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any for which figures are available. [25949] large-scale assessment and recording system. Mr Lidington: The Government have committed to providing the Procedure Committee with sessional statistics Probation Service in a standard format on the time taken to respond to written parliamentary questions for the 2009-10 session. John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice This information will be submitted to the Procedure (1) what assessment he has made of the effect of Committee shortly. reductions in expenditure on the Probation Service on The Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s (FCO) records the provision of (a) probation programmes, (b) on answering questions are calculated on the basis of unpaid work and (c) approved premises places; [26096] sitting days, not calendar days, in accordance with the (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of convention that questions should be answered within a reductions in expenditure on the Probation Service on working week. the length of time between the issue of a community Since 25 May 2010, the FCO has received 185 questions order and a visit by an appropriately-trained probation tabled for written answer on a named day, of which 167 officer to the subject of the order. [26097] (90%) were answered substantively on time. Mr Blunt: Internal resource allocations for the spending All such questions tabled between May 2010 and review 2010 period have not yet been decided, but we 12 November 2010 had received a substantive answer have made it clear that we expect savings to be achieved by 18 November 2010. in large part through improvements in efficiency and by Answering questions tabled for written answer on a streamlining administration. We will publish a Green named day with short deadlines is challenging for the Paper before the end of the year, setting out our plans FCO, as officials in London often have to consult to reform sentencing and rehabilitate offenders more colleagues in other time zones around the world. However, effectively. the FCO has made no estimate of the average cost of answering questions.

Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many and what proportion of questions tabled to the Secretary of State for ordinary written answer (a) in Session 2009-10 and Colombia: Homicide (b) since May 2010 were answered within (i) seven days and (ii) 14 days of tabling; how many such questions Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for tabled between May 2010 and 12 November 2010 remained Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he unanswered by 18 November 2010; and what estimate has received on the number of journalists killed in he has made of the average cost to his Department of Colombia in 2010. [26082] answering a question for ordinary written answer within seven days of tabling in the latest period for which Mr Bellingham: Official figures from the Colombian figures are available. [25950] Government show that between January and October 2010 one journalist was killed in Colombia. These Mr Lidington: The Government have committed to figures arc supported by the Colombian Foundation for providing the Procedure Committee with sessional statistics Freedom of the Press (FLIP). Our embassy in Bogota in a standard format on the time taken to respond to 313W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 314W written parliamentary questions for the 2009-10 Session. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT This information will be submitted to the Procedure Committee shortly. Africa: Debts The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO)’s records on answering questions are calculated on the basis of Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for sitting days, not calendar days, in accordance with the International Development what estimate he has made convention that questions should be answered within a of the level of debt relief that (a) Sudan and (b) working week. Zimbabwe will receive in each of the next four years. [24452] In the current Session up to 12 November 2010, the FCO received 789 questions for ordinary written answer Danny Alexander: I have been asked to reply. of which 605 (77%) were answered within five sitting days, and 735 (93%) were answered within 10 sitting The Government have made provision in the 2010 days. 12 questions remained unanswered. spending review for debt relief for both Sudan and Zimbabwe. A judgment was made that there is a realistic We have made no estimate of the average cost of probability that these countries will meet the conditions answering a question for ordinary written answer within required for debt relief during SR10. seven days of tabling. Overseas Aid EU Institutions: Audit Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign International Development what assessment he has made and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to of the effects on decision-making and oversight of his increase the effectiveness of auditing practices in EU Department’s country programmes of co-location of institutions; and what recent discussions he has had his Department’s posts and those of the Foreign and with (a) the European Commission and (b) his EU Commonwealth Office. [25609] counterparts in the Council of Ministers on that matter. [24893] Mr Duncan: No specific assessment has been undertaken of the effects of co-location with the Foreign and Justine Greening: I have been asked to reply. Commonwealth Office (FCO) on decision-making The Government are disappointed that the European and oversight of the Department for International Court of Auditors has been unable to grant a positive Development’s (DFID’s) country programmes. Co-location Statement of Assurance on the financial management is the preferred option for both DFID and the FCO. of EU funds for the 16th year in succession. Although Each co-location proposal is assessed against financial the Government recognise that the European Court of and non-financial criteria with a focus on achieving Auditors’ recent report on the 2009 EU Budget shows maximum value for money some improvements compared to last year, we remain DFID is currently working with other Government concerned that the pace of reform is too slow. Departments with an overseas presence to look at ways The Government believe that more needs to be done the efficiency and effectiveness of corporate services by all concerned to improve EU financial management can be improved by merging functions such as transport, and achieve a positive Statement of Assurance. The security and facilities management. Chancellor of the Exchequer made these points at the meeting of EU member states’ Finance Ministers on 17 November. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION The Government will continue to champion reform through engagement with European institutions and Industrial Health and Safety other member states. The Economic Secretary met with the European Commissioner responsible for financial Ms Bagshawe: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, management, Commissioner Semeta, during a visit to Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Brussels on 14 October, and highlighted the Government’s Commons Commission, what the cost of employment determination to have increased transparency and was of (a) health and safety and (b) risk assessment accountability in EU spending. staff in the House of Commons Service in each year since 1997. [26014] Israel: OECD John Thurso: The House of Commons employs two Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for full-time safety advisers. The cost of this service is Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the shared with the House of Lords. Over the last three answer of 18 October 2010, Official Report, columns years, the cost to the House of Commons has been: 494-5W,on Israel: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, which OECD documents citing Israeli £ data include (a) the full footnote and (b) each truncated 2007-08 68,400 version of that footnote. [25639] 2008-09 73,600 2009-10 72,000 Alistair Burt: The footnote is used in every Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development document Figures for earlier years are not available, but would or paper using (Israeli) data on the Golan Heights, East have been broadly similar. Duties related to health and Jerusalem and Israeli settlements in the West Bank. safety risk assessments are incorporated into line 315W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 316W management responsibilities and individual job descriptions. Palace of Westminster: Gas It is not possible separately to identify the cost of these activities. Mr Jenkin: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, pursuant to the answer of Outreach Programme 14 September 2010, Official Report, column 953W, on Palace of Westminster: gas, what professional or technical Caroline Nokes: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, advice has been obtained on the contained gas leaks Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of from gas lanterns in New Palace Yard; and whether Commons Commission, (1) by what measures the outcomes there have been discussions with other operators of such lanterns on best practice for the prevention of gas of the Outreach programme are assessed; [25642] leaks. [25504] (2) how many people have attended outreach events in the last 12 months; [25645] John Thurso: The Parliamentary Estates Directorate (3) how many and what proportion of outreach events retains an onsite specialist “gas safe” contractor for have directly involved members of the public, excluding day-to-day technical advice on all gas-related items, as staff of local authorities and non-departmental public well as the services of a specialist lighting company, bodies, in the last 12 months. [25646] which still manufacture gas lamps. The lighting company are currently refurbishing one of the gas globes in New Palace Yard following damage by a lorry. John Thurso: The Parliamentary Outreach service aims to spread awareness of the work, processes and The Parliamentary Estates Directorate is fully aware relevance of the institution of Parliament, encouraging of possible reasons for leaks (faulty solenoid, failed greater engagement between the public and the House mantles, broken glazing, pipe work leaks, etc) having of Commons and House of Lords. Since its launch, the maintained these gas lamps since 1991. It is recognised level of demand for outreach sessions has increased that the gas lamps are in need of significant refurbishment, continuously. Parliamentary Outreach now employs two which is planned for the summer recess of 2011-12. main methods of increasing levels of public understanding In the meantime, the Parliamentary Estates Directorate and participation: (a) regional parliamentary training will carry out an additional overhaul of the gas lighting. sessions, and (b) sessions explaining how to engage with select committees and the process of public bills. Mr Jenkin: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Over the past 12 months, the Parliamentary Outreach Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of team has run 456 events, of which around 4.39% (20) Commons Commission, who is responsible for the were run in partnership with local authorities and non- operation and maintenance of the gas lanterns on the departmental bodies. The majority of events are run in parliamentary estate. [25505] partnership with organisations in the voluntary and community sectors, ensuring maximum reach and value John Thurso: The Parliamentary Estates Directorate, for money. Some 13,000 people have attended outreach in the Department of Facilities, is responsible for the events during the past 12 months. The vast majority of operation and maintenance of the gas lanterns on the attendees are from organisations which have either a parliamentary estate. Due to the statutory nature of gas strategic remit to increase civic engagement or a direct appliances all work is carried out by a specialist “gas objective to engage with parliamentary processes. As safe” contractor who has maintained the gas lamps for the partner organisations organise the attendance at the 20 years. regional events, it is not possible to give an accurate figure of the percentage of attendees who are employed by local authorities or non-departmental government bodies. Analysis of the attendees at the Public Bill DEFENCE workshops in the last two months shows that 9.4% of those who registered to attend are employed in these Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations fields. The success of each outreach event is measured by Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for evaluating whether the participants feel better equipped Defence on how many occasions a foreign government to engage with Parliament. At least 98% of attendees at has refused a request from his Department to transfer the recent Public Bill workshops have stated that they or give access to (a) technology and (b) software code felt better equipped to engage with Parliament and at used by UK forces in Afghanistan since 2001. [26070] least 94% rated the workshop as good or excellent. Peter Luff [holding answer 23 November 2010]: Foreign governments may on occasions provide access to technology Caroline Nokes: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, and software only to their own forces, sometimes for a Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of set period, for national security or foreign policy reasons Commons Commission, how much has been spent on or for allowing for their own exploitation of research the Outreach programme in each financial year since it and development. was established. [25643] The information requested is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. However, John Thurso: I refer the hon. Lady to the answer if the information was available, I would withhold it as given on 17 November 2010, Official Report, column its disclosure would, or would be likely to prejudice the 844W, to the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). capability, effectiveness or security of the armed forces. 317W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 318W

Counter-terrorism: Finance (2) what estimate he made of the financial saving consequent on removing the Tornado fleet from service Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) not taking account of and (b) taking into account Defence pursuant to the answer of 12 November 2010, the effects of that decision on other capabilities (i) in Official Report, column 501W on defence: expenditure, each of the next four years and (ii) during the how much funding he has allocated from his Department’s anticipated life of the current fleet; and if he will make core budget to counter-terrorism activities in (a) 2010-11, a statement. [24298] (b) 2011-12, (c) 2012-13, (d) 2013-14 and (e) 2014-15. [25613] Peter Luff: In the interests of long-term financial affordability, the strategic defence and security review Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence does not (SDSR) determined that we would transition to a two separately identify the specific sums from the core budget platform fast jet fleet consisting of the highly capable that will be spent on counter terrorism activities. There multi-role aircraft, Typhoon and joint strike fighter. In are a wide range of capabilities that the MOD holds the transition period the difficult decision has been and similarly a wide range of activities which the MOD taken to remove Harrier from service in 2011. undertakes as part of core business that may contribute The overriding factor in deciding between removing towards counter terrorism. The majority of MOD counter- either the Tornado GR4 or Harrier was the ability to terrorism activities are, however, provided in support of support operations in Afghanistan. The Harrier fleet other Government Departments, for which it is reimbursed. would have been too small to support Afghanistan operations at current levels, notwithstanding Carrier Strike and other contingent operations. Conversely, the Defence: Procurement Tornado GR4 force—even at its reduced size—will be significantly larger than the current Harrier force and Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for would allow continuous UK fast jet close air support to Defence how many of the projects identified in the forces in Afghanistan and the ability to support concurrent National Audit Office’s report on major projects include operations. It also has a number of key capability (a) technology and (b) software code over which his advantages over the Harrier GR9 including: Department does not have full access for future upgrades greater payload and range and integration of capabilities such and maintenance support. [26068] as Storm Shadow; fully integrated dual mode Brimstone; Peter Luff [holding answer 23 November 2010]: There the Raptor reconnaissance pod; and are a number of projects mentioned in the NAO’s a cannon. report on major projects for which the Department does not, or does not yet have full access to the technology We will retain a reduced Tornado GR4 fleet that will or software code to provide the required upgrades and drawdown gradually to ensure there is no effect on maintenance support. However, where that is the case, operations in Afghanistan as we transition to Typhoon we are either negotiating to obtain access or we have an and joint strike fighter, from which we will also regenerate appropriate arrangement with the holder of the technology our Carrier Strike capability. In line with these transitions, or software code to provide the required upgrade and we currently plan to take the Tornado GR4 out of maintenance support, or the project is at an early stage service in 2021. This updates the out of service date and where we would not yet expect such matters to be associated costs in the reply given to the noble Lord, settled. I am withholding the information regarding the Lord West of Spithead in another place by Lord Astor specific situation for each project as its disclosure would, on 16 November 2010, Official Report, House of Lords, or would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness column WA178, which were based on pre-SDSR plans. or security of the armed forces. The Prime Minister received full advice on the options regarding our fast jet fleet as part of the SDSR process. Military Aircraft The MOD made estimates of cost savings accrued from measures considered in the SDSR for the purpose of formulating policy. Some of these have been published Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for to help inform the public debate. Release of further Defence (1) how many of the 135 Tornados in the UK detail may prejudice the MOD’s negotiating position inventory have been modified for operations in Afghanistan; with its commercial suppliers. Furthermore, final savings and what the estimated remaining in-service cost is for figures will depend on detailed implementation, which the Tornado fleet up to 2023; [23692] will generally be subject to full consultation with all (2) how many of the 79 GR9 Harriers in the UK relevant parties, including the trade unions and the inventory have been modified for operations in Afghanistan; devolved Administrations, as well as the results of and what the estimated remaining in-service cost is for mandatory assessments on the impact that the measures the Harrier fleet up to 2023. [23693] will have on sustainability, equality and diversity and health and safety. The MOD is therefore not prepared Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for to release more detailed savings or updated in-service Defence (1) what estimate he made of the net financial cost figures at this time. saving consequent on removing the Tornado fleet from The MOD calculates the full cost of aircraft per service and retaining the Harrier fleet (a) in the next flying hour. The current rates for our fast jets are shown four years, (b) during the anticipated life of the in the table. These figures include forward and depth Tornado fleet and (c) during the anticipated life of a servicing, fuel costs, crew costs, training costs, cost of retained Harrier fleet; and if he will make a statement; capital charge, depreciation and amortisation. The Typhoon [24297] cost per flying hour reflects the build up of the fleet 319W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 320W with small numbers of aircraft currently in-service. This Proposals for improving transparency and local cost will comparatively reduce as the fleet builds and is accountability of adult social care were set out for expected to be similar to our other fast jet fleets when consultation in “Transparency in outcomes: a framework we reach a steady state position. for adult social care”, published on 16 November 2010. Financial year 2010-11 This publication envisages a new approach, which Aircraft Cost per hour (£) incentivises improvement in quality, based on transparent information on outcomes at the local level. The role of Tornado GR4 35,000 regulation and assessment of social care providers is Typhoon 70,000 discussed in this context. A response to the consultation Harrier GR7/GR9 37,000 will be published in March 2011. Tornado F3 43,000

These costs will need to be reviewed once we have Care Homes: Personnel finalised the SDSR decisions and how they will be implemented. The Tornado aircraft fleet, consisting of the GR4 Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for ground attack and F3 air defence variants, is supported Health what plans his Department has to increase the by two availability based maintenance contracts. The staff-to-patient ratio in state care homes. [26083] Availability Transformation: Tornado Aircraft Contract (ATTAC), for which BAE Systems is the prime contractor, Paul Burstow: Under the Health and Social Care Act provides Depth Support until 2016 and has a total value 2008, all providers of regulated health and adult social of £1.5 billion. The Turbo-Union RB199 engine which care activities, whether in the public or independent powers the Tornado aircraft is supported by the RB199 sectors, must register with the Care Quality Commission Operational Contract for Engine Transformation 2 (CQC) and meet a set of 16 requirements of essential (ROCET 2) awarded to Rolls-Royce until 2025. The safety and quality. contract has a total value of £690 million. There are no The registration requirements set out that providers penalty clauses in either contract. However, both contracts must take steps to ensure that at all times there are include a number of conditions that allow for early sufficient numbers of suitably qualified, skilled and termination. Any costs associated with the implementation experienced staff and that staff are supported in relation of these conditions following the SDSR outcome are to their responsibilities by receiving appropriate training, being negotiated with the contractor. professional development, supervision and appraisal. Under the Capability Upgrade Strategy (Pilot) Failure to comply with this requirement is an offence programme approved in December 2007, 96 Tornado and CQC has a wide range of independent enforcement GR4 aircraft will receive capability upgrades between powers under the new registration system to ensure 2011 and 2014 at an estimated cost of around £300 million. compliance. These powers include the issue of a warning This number of aircraft is sufficient to maintain the notice that requires improvement within a specified operational capability of the Tornado GR4 Forward time, prosecution and the power to cancel a provider’s Available Fleet until OSD. There are currently no plans registration, removing its ability to engage in regulated for the aircraft to receive any further capability upgrades activities. after 2014. For the number of Tornado GR4 modified for Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Operations in Afghanistan, I refer the noble Lord to the Health whether he plans to take further steps to ensure reply given to the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead in that care homes are staffed by (a) appropriately another place by Lord Astor on 4 November 2010, qualified and (b) adequately trained professionals. Official Report, House of Lords, column WA427. To [26085] optimise the further 17 Tornado aircraft required for operations in Afghanistan will cost around £0.5 million. Paul Burstow: The Care Quality Commission (CQC) The 15 Harrier GR9 aircraft that have returned from is the independent regulator of health and adult social Afghanistan would require refitting of equipment to be care services in England. CQC’s role is to provide made ready for operations. assurance of safety and quality for people who use services and patients. HEALTH Under the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (the 2008 Act), providers of regulated health and adult social care Care Homes activities must register with CQC and meet a set of 16 requirements of essential safety and quality.The registration Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for requirements, set in secondary legislation, include a Health if his Department will assess the merits of requirement that providers must take steps to ensure bringing forward proposals to put in place further that at all times there are sufficient numbers of suitably transparency and accountability mechanisms in respect qualified, skilled and experienced staff, and that staff of its assessment of care homes. [26084] are supported in relation to their responsibilities by Paul Burstow: A new registration system for regulated receiving appropriate training, professional development, adult social care services, under the Health and Social supervision and appraisal. Care Act 2008, came into force on 1 October 2010. The Failure to comply with the registration requirements Care Quality Commission is currently developing a new is an offence, and under the 2008 Act CQC has a wide approach whereby information about regulated services range of enforcement powers that it can use if a provider will be made available. is not compliant. 321W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 322W

These include the issue of a warning notice that Mr Simon Burns: The numbers of dentists with national requires improvement within a specified time, prosecution, health service activity during the year ending 31 March and the power to cancel a provider’s registration, removing 2010 in the Bolton primary care trust (PCT) area its ability to provide regulated activities. are 134. In addition, Skills for Care is working with employers This information is contained within table G1 of to ensure that care workers can access continued annex 3 of the “NHS Dental Statistics for England: professional development, (Skills for Care is an employer 2009-10” report. Information is provided for England led work force development organisation for adult social and by strategic health authority and PCT.This information care which is largely funded by the Department, and the is based on the dental contractual arrangements, introduced partner of the Sector Skills Council in England). on 1 April 2006. This report, published on 18 August National Occupational Standards describe the skills, 2010, has already been placed in the Library and is also knowledge and values care workers should meet for a available on the NHS Information Centre website at: variety of settings at different levels. www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats0910 Following a consultation exercise, this measure is Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease based on a revised methodology and therefore supersedes any previously published workforce figures relating to Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the new dental contractual arrangements. It is not (1) how many hospital bed days there were for (a) comparable to the information collected under the old chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and (b) all contractual arrangements. This revised methodology respiratory diseases in each primary care trust area in counts the number of dental performers with NHS activity recorded via FP17 claim forms in each year the latest period for which figures are available; [26123] ending 31 March. (2) how many hospital admissions there were for (a) chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and (b) These published figures relate to a headcount and do respiratory diseases in each primary care trust area in not differentiate between full-time and part-time dentists, nor do they account for the fact that some dentists may the latest period for which figures are available. [26124] do more NHS work than others. Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the Dental Services: Manpower written answer I gave the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr Meale) on 9 November 2010, Official Report, Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health column 236W. what steps he plans to take to review staffing levels in dental services; and what mechanisms he plans to put Dental Services in place to ensure that adequate personnel are available over the next five years. [25619] Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the proportion of people Mr Simon Burns: We are currently undertaking a in (a) Bolton and (b) England who have access to an dental work force review, which will include a sample NHS dentist. [25620] survey of dentists’ and dental care professionals’ working patterns and career plans. Initial results should be available Mr Simon Burns: Information is not available in the by next spring. format requested. Dental Services: Training Information on the proportion of patients seen by a national health service dentist in the previous 24 months, Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in England, is available in Table E2 of Annex 3 of the how many dental schools provide training for dentists ‘NHS Dental Statistics for England 2009/10’ report. in England; and how many places were offered by each Information is available at quarterly intervals, from 31 dental school in each year since 2005. [25647] March 2006 to 30 June 2010 and is provided by primary care trust and by strategic health authority. Mr Simon Burns: The information that is available This report, published on 18 August 2010, has already centrally for the 11 university dental schools now operating been placed in the Library and is also available on the in England is for students admitted: NHS Information Centre website at: www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats0910 Undergraduates admitted academic year beginning in September Dental 2010- Dental Services: Bolton school 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 111

Kings 168 163 167 155 165 163 Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health College what recent representations he has received on the London availability of NHS dentists in Bolton. [25621] Bristol 75 69 73 73 73 85 Manchester 79 71 79 73 82 78 Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not received Queen 82 107 81 76 79 84 any recent representations regarding the availability of Mary national health service dentists in Bolton. London Liverpool 71 88 75 81 81 82 Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Leeds908889948892 how many NHS dentists there are in Bolton. [25622] Sheffield 74 76 76 80 84 80 323W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 324W

Undergraduates admitted academic year beginning in SI September Title Number Dental 2010- school 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 111 The Food Irradiation (England) (Amendment) 2010/ Regulations 2010 2312 Newcastle 82 93 86 86 77 89 The National Health Service (General Medical Services 2010/ Birmingham 82 84 90 72 86 75 Contracts) (Prescription of Drugs etc.) Amendment 2389 Regulations 2010 SW ——56645864 Peninsula2 The Health Protection Agency (Amendment) 2010/ Regulations 2010 2540 Central ——32303232 Lancashire2 The Animal Feed (England) Regulations 2010 2010/ 2503 1 Provisional. 2 Opened September 2007. The National Health Service (Functions of Strategic 2010/ Health Authorities and Primary Care Trusts and 2649 Administration Arrangements) (England) Amendment Departmental Regulation (No.2) Regulations 2010 The Tyne Port Health Authority Order 2010/ Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2676 (1) what regulations sponsored by his Department have The Medicines for Human Use (Prescribing by EEA 2010/ been revoked in the last six months; [24380] Practitioners) (Amendment) (No.2) Regulations 2010 1673 (2) what new regulations sponsored by his Department have been introduced through (a) primary legislation Diabetes: Health Services and (b) statutory instrument in the last six months. [24495] Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to (a) Mr Simon Burns: In the last six months, the Department diagnose and (b) support people with diabetes. [26009] has revoked the following statutory instruments (Sis): Tyne Port Health Authority Order 1990 (SI 1990/1119); and Paul Burstow: The National Service Framework (NSF) for Diabetes sets out the framework for the prevention The Rice Products from the United States of America (Restriction on First Placing on the Market) (England) Regulations 2008 and diagnosing of diabetes, developing services and (SI 2008/622). improving outcomes for people with diabetes. The national health service has made good progress against the NSF We will also be continuing to scrutinise our stock of with the number of people getting the key tests and regulation and pipeline measures inherited from the measures to help prevent or delay the complications of previous administration with a view to finding OUTs, diabetes rising year on year. In addition, the National for the One-in, One-out regulatory management system. Quality Standard for Diabetes is currently subject to In the last six months, no new primary legislation has public consultation before being finalised in 2011. been passed. The regulations and orders which have The NHS is taking a structured approach to risk been introduced through statutory instrument are shown assessment and management of diabetes with the NHS in the following table. Health Check programme. The Quality and Outcomes Framework encourages general practitioners to maintain SI a register of people with a diagnosis of diabetes and to Title Number ensure that they receive the key processes of care on an The Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Consequential 2010/ annual basis. Amendments) (Wales) Order 2010 1593 Supporting people with diabetes to better understand The National Health Service Pension Scheme 2010/ their condition is key to reducing complications arising (Amendment) Regulations 2010 1634 from diabetes. Structured education programmes, access The Rice Products from the United States of America 2010/ (Restriction on First Placing on the Market) (England) 1585 to specialist diabetes advice, care planning discussions (Revocation) Regulations 2010 and annual checks are all part of the wide range of The Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Consequential 2010/ NHS support for people with diabetes. Amendments No.3) Order 2010 2224 NHS Diabetes, the national service improvement team The Medicines for Human Use (Prescribing by EEA 2010/ has an extensive range of work programmes in place to Practitioners) (Amendment) Regulations 2010 1673 support the NHS in improving diabetes care at the local The Mayday Healthcare National Health Service Trust 2010/ level. Specifically, they have produced “Commissioning (Establishment) Amendment Order 2010 2230 Without Walls” which provides commissioning advice The South Downs Health National Health Service Trust 2010/ across a number of facets of diabetes care. (Establishment) Amendment Order 2010 2229 The Community Care, Services for Carers and Children’s 2010/ To raise awareness of type 1 diabetes, in July 2010, Services (Direct Payments) (England) (Amendment) 2246 NHS Diabetes in association with Diabetes UK and the Regulations 2010 Department published an exemplar patient journey to The Contaminants in Food (England) Regulations 2010 2010/ highlight the diagnosis and entire care pathway for a 2228 child with type 1 diabetes. This is aimed at professionals The Materials and Articles in Contact with Food 2010/ from a broad range of backgrounds including education, (England) Regulations 2010 2225 the NHS, social services and the voluntary sector. The Feed (Sampling and Analysis and Specified 2010/ Undesirable Substances) (England) Regulations 2010 2280 Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Foodstuffs Suitable for People Intolerant to Gluten 2010/ (England) Regulations 2010 2281 how much his Department spent on (a) NHS and (b) social care for people with diabetes in 2009; and how 325W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 326W much was spent on (i) prescription medicines, (ii) glucose Three thorough studies have been carried out since testing, (iii) treatment in primary care, (iv) hospitalisation, the 1980s and the results have been published in science (v) ambulance services, (vi) treating complications and journals. Through the nuclear test veteran organisations, (vii) other costs in respect of diabetes care. [26065] nuclear test veterans and their families have been kept informed about the studies since their inception in 1983 Paul Burstow: Diabetes is a life-long, complex condition and the researchers have long been committed to providing that can affect every part of the body, which means that the results of studies to the test veterans in advance of it is difficult to calculate its exact cost to the national publication. The publications are in the public domain health service. However programme budget returns and are usually well reported in the news media. estimates that for the year 2008-9, expenditure by the NHS on diabetes was £1.26 billion. For the calendar year 2009, the net ingredient cost of prescribing medicines Medical Treatments: Haemophilia for diabetes was £488.8 million and the cost for glucose testing was £144.5 million. Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for Health We are unable to provide figures for social care costs, how many previously untreated patients were used in treatment in primary care, the cost for hospitalisation, trials of the Factor VIII concentrate Hemofil T in the treating complications and other costs in respect of early 1980s. [26081] diabetes care or ambulance services for people with diabetes. Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold this information. Hemofil T was a commercial product, so Disability: Children the clinical trials would have been conducted by the manufacturer Hyland-Travenol (now Baxter Healthcare). Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether baseline funding for primary care trusts will include an allocation for disabled children’s services Prescription Drugs including (a) short respite breaks, (b) wheelchairs, (c) community equipment and (d) palliative care. [25760] Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what guidance his Department has issued to the Mr Simon Burns: The Department currently makes National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence revenue allocations direct to primary care trusts (PCTs) on assessing drugs for patient groups of fewer than on the basis of a national weighted capitation formula 500 people; [25605] which is used to determine each PCT’s target share of (2) how the National Institute for Health and available resources. The components of the formula are Clinical Excellence applies its guidance on social value used to weight each PCTs population according to their judgements to the appraisal of drugs for patient groups relative need (age and additional need) for healthcare of fewer than 500 people. [25624] and the unavoidable geographical differences in the cost of providing healthcare (the market forces factor). Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not issued any PCT revenue allocations are not broken down by guidance to the National Institute for Health and Clinical policy or service area. Once allocated, it is for PCTs to Excellence (NICE) on the assessment of drugs for patient commission the services they require to meet the healthcare groups of fewer than 500 people. needs of their local populations, taking account of both NICE’S “Guide to the methods of technology appraisal local and national priorities. specifies that Appraisal Committees should consider Further details about PCT revenue allocations post the document Social Value Judgements: Principles for 2010-11 will be announced in December 2010. the Development of NICE Guidance” in developing any piece of technology appraisal guidance. Health Protection Agency: Ex-servicemen The Guide to the methods of technology appraisal is available at: Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for www.nice.org.uk/media/B52/A7/ Health how many atomic veterans have been included TAMethodsGuideUpdatedJune2008.pdf in the Health Protection Agency’s mortality study; and The “Social Value Judgements: Principles for the if he will make a statement. [26603] Development of NICE Guidance” document is at: www.nice.org.uk/media/C18/30/ Anne Milton: The group of test participants covered SVJ2PUBLICATION2008.pdf by Health Protection Agency’s study consists of over 20,000 servicemen and civilians who took part in the tests and a carefully matched control group of a similar Stem Cells: Fats size. Controls had served in tropical or sub-tropical areas, but not in test locations. About 85% of those Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health meeting the definition of test participation are included. what recent reports he has received on the use of stem The information about causes of death in this study cells taken from waistline fat to treat heart attacks; and is obtained only from death certificates and cancer if he will make a statement. [26498] registrations. Post-mortems are not part of the study. If participants have post-mortems for other reasons then Anne Milton: The Department has not received any the findings are duly recorded in the death certificate reports on the use of stem cells taken from the waistline from which the study gets its information. to treat heart attacks. 327W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 328W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT on 6 September 2010, Official Report, columns 321-22W, by the Minister for Tourism and Heritage, my hon. Copyright: Internet Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose).

Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps his Music: Finance Department has taken to reduce the incidence of illegal online downloads of digital media. [26055] Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will estimate Mr Vaizey: The Digital Economy Act (2010) contained the likely monetary value to the economy of the music provisions to help tackle unlawful file-sharing of digital industry in 2015. [26057] content. Ofcom’s initial obligations code, heralded by the Act, will shortly be published and is due to come into effect at the beginning of April 2011. Furthermore, Mr Vaizey: We have no plans to estimate the likely the Department continues to liaise with representatives monetary value of the music industry in 2015, but in of the digital content industry, internet service providers 2006 the Creative and Cultural Skills Council reported and intermediaries to investigate further possible action that the industry contributed some £6 billion to the UK which could appropriately be taken by industry itself to economy. reduce unlawful online file sharing and promote legitimate digital content. S4C: Finance Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent estimates Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, he has made of the cost to the music industry of illegal Olympics, Media and Sport what proportion of the music downloading. [26056] funds allocated to S4C from the BBC licence fee will be spent in the independent production sector. [25693] Mr Vaizey: I have made no recent estimate of the cost to the music industry of illegal music downloading. Mr Vaizey: All of S4C’s content budget will be spent However, the British phonographic industry estimate in the independent production sector, as at present. that the loss to the UK music industry from unlawful file-sharing is £180 million per annum (2008). Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will provide a period Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for of six months for his Department and the BBC Trust to Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether his consider and report on the merits of the proposed Department has discussed with representatives of the funding arrangements for S4C; and if he will make a music industry non-legislative solutions to help reduce statement. [25694] illegal online file sharing. [26058]

Mr Vaizey: The Department has had discussions with Mr Vaizey: Subject to the Public Bodies Bill, the representatives of the UK music industry together with funding arrangements for S4C are set out in the Secretary internet service providers (ISPs) to discuss possible of State’s spending review settlement letter of 20 October non-legislative solutions to help reduce unlawful online to the chair of the Welsh Authority and my right hon. file-sharing, as well as the protection and promotion of Friend’s licence fee agreement letter of 21 October to legitimate digital content. the chair of the BBC Trust. Further information on the licence fee agreement can Departmental Food be found in the settlement letter published on our website: Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/ Olympics, Media and Sport whether his Department Lyons_BBC.pdf has guidelines on ensuring that food used for his Department’s official functions is of domestic origin. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, [25546] Olympics, Media and Sport whether the funding to be allocated to S4C will exclude the £20 million the BBC John Penrose: The Department provides very little spends on in-house Welsh language programmes for food for official functions and, accordingly, does not S4C. [25695] have any specific guidelines for ensuring it is of domestic origin. Mr Vaizey: The statutory provision of Welsh Football: South Africa programming by the BBC to S4C is in addition to the funding allocated to S4C in the Secretary of State’s spending review settlement letter of 20 October to the Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for chair of the Welsh Authority. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department spent on attendance at the 2010 FIFA Further information on the licence fee agreement can World Cup. [26150] be found in the settlement letter published on our website: Hugh Robertson: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/ given to the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) Lyons_BBC.pdf 329W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 330W

WALES (2) what discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on Departmental Written Questions the effects of the comprehensive spending review on that Department’s expenditure in Wales; [26568] Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) what discussions she has had with the Secretary of Wales (1) how many and what proportion of questions State for Transport on the effects of the comprehensive tabled to the Secretary of State for written answer on a spending review on funding for transport infrastructure named day were answered substantively before or on in Wales; [26569] the day named for answer (a) in Session 2009-10 and (4) what discussions she has had with the Secretary (b) since May 2010; how many such questions tabled of State for Energy and Climate Change on the effects between May 2010 and 12 November 2010 had not of the comprehensive spending review outcomes on received a substantive answer by 18 November 2010; that Department’s expenditure in Wales; [26570] and what estimate she has made of the average cost to (5) what discussions she has had with the Secretary her Department of answering a question for written of State for Health on the effects of the comprehensive answer on a named day on the day named for answer in spending review on cross-border health provision the latest period for which figures are available; [25967] affecting Wales; [26571] (2) how many and what proportion of questions (6) what discussions she has had with the Secretary tabled to the Secretary of State for ordinary written of State for Work and Pensions on the effects of the answer (a) in Session 2009-10 and (b) since May 2010 comprehensive spending review on that Department’s were answered within (i) seven days and (ii) 14 days of expenditure in Wales; [26572] tabling; how many such questions tabled between May 2010 and 12 November 2010 remained unanswered by (7) what discussions she has had with the Secretary 18 November 2010; and what estimate she has made of of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the the average cost to her Department of answering a effects of the comprehensive spending review on that question for ordinary written answer within seven days Department’s expenditure in Wales; [26573] of tabling in the latest period for which figures are (8) what discussions she has had with the Secretary of available. [25968] State for Defence on the effects of the comprehensive spending review on that Department’s expenditure in Mr David Jones: The information requested is as Wales; [26574] follows: (9) what discussions she has had with the Home Secretary on the effects of the comprehensive spending 2010-11 Session review on that Department’s expenditure in Wales; Named day questions answered 25 [26575] Named day questions answered 25 (100%) (10) what discussions she has had with the Secretary on or before named day of State for Justice on the effects of the comprehensive Ordinary written questions 147 (91%) spending review on that Department’s expenditure in answered within one sitting week Wales; [26576] Ordinary written questions 158 (98%) answered within two sitting (11) what discussions she has had with the weeks Chancellor of the Exchequer on the effects of the comprehensive spending review on that Department’s No named day parliamentary questions that have expenditure in Wales. [26577] been tabled between May 2010 and November 2010 were awaiting a substantive response on 18 November Mrs Gillan: I have had regular discussions with my 2010. Cabinet colleagues on the comprehensive spending review No questions tabled for ordinary written answer between and the implications for Wales. The importance of a May 2010 and 12 November 2010 remained unanswered fair settlement for Wales has been at the heart of all of by 18 November 2010. those discussions. The Government have committed to providing the Procedure Committee with sessional statistics in a standard format on the time taken to respond to written BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS parliamentary questions for the 2009-10 session. This information will be submitted to the Procedure Committee Adult Education shortly. In relation to the cost of answering written questions, Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the figures provided by Innovation and Skills (1) what organisations he has Her Majesty’s Treasury in its written ministerial statement consulted on his plans to reform adult community of 20 January 2010, Official Report, column 15WS. learning; and if he will make a statement; [26118] (2) when he expects to be in a position to announce Public Expenditure his proposals for reform of adult community learning; and if he will make a statement. [26119] Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what discussions she has had with the Secretary of Mr Hayes: We very much welcome your interest. This State for Culture, Media and Sport on the effects of the Government are keen supporters of adult and community comprehensive spending review on funding for sport in learning and the benefits it brings for individuals, families Wales; [26567] and communities. That is why we protected the funding 331W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 332W for adult safeguarded learning in the recent comprehensive Government have recently strengthened the pay spending review. And that is why we are determined to arrangements for apprentices by ending their exemption make it accessible to the people in our society who are from the minimum wage and bringing all apprentices most disadvantaged and have had had fewest opportunities within the national minimum wage (NMW) framework. to learn in the past. The new rate of £2.50 per hour was introduced from On 16 November, my right hon. Friend the Secretary 1 October 2010. of State announced our intention to reform and reinvigorate Apprentices: Fees and Charges informal adult and community learning. We are currently at the stage of planning the reform programme and I am considering proposals for the process and timescales. Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, You will know already that we place a high value on the Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the views of our partners in the sector. We will work closely average cost to an individual aged over 24 years of with a wide range of organisations to maximise the course fees in respect of an apprenticeship place in potential of informal adult and community learning to 2013-14. [26145] support the development of the Big Society and create progression routes into further learning, training and Mr Hayes: ‘Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth’ employment for people who are disadvantaged. (16 November 2010) sets out our funding strategy for post 19 further education (FE) and skills for the spending Adult Education: Finance review. We have been clear that it is only fair that those who benefit the most from training make a greater contribution towards the costs of their course, but also Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for only fair for them to make this contribution when they Business, Innovation and Skills what his Department’s are indeed realising those benefits and earning a good budget will be for adult community learning in (a) salary. 2013-14 and (b) 2014-15. [26146] From the 2013/14 academic year, Government will Mr Hayes: As set out in ‘Investing in Skills for continue to share the costs of level 2 apprenticeships for Sustainable Growth’, published on 16 November 2010, learners aged 24 and above with employers. Government we are protecting the Department’s budget for informal will no longer co-fund level 3 and higher apprenticeships adult and community learning funded through the Adult for those aged 24 and above. In this instance, where Safeguarded Learning budget. I can confirm that informal learners are expected to contribute towards the costs, adult and community learning has a budget of £210 they will have access to fee loans to defer the costs of million for 2011-12 and the same indicative budget for training. 2012-13. It will continue to be a priority as we finalise In cases where a contribution is expected from a the allocations for future years. learner and/or employer, it is not possible to estimate the amount of fees charged to learners because from the Advantage West Midlands 2013/14 academic year (i) as now FE colleges and training organisations will be responsible for determining Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for the amount of fees charged and (ii) learners and employers Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to will need to agree on a case-by-case basis how best to make a decision on the future ownership of the Ansty share the costs and what proportion of the fees each Business Park, Coventry, after the closure of Advantage will pay. West Midlands. [25734] As set out in ‘Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth’, over the next few months we will engage with Mr Prisk: This Department has been having ongoing colleges, training organisations and others on the details discussions on the principles and process for the disposal of how fee loans will be implemented to ensure the of all regional development agency (RDA) assets and approach to fee loans recognises the characteristics of liabilities. Detailed guidance to RDAs is still being different types of learners and identifies the particular prepared and this will enable plans to be developed for delivery arrangements appropriate for the FE and skills transition. Until these plans are completed there will be sector. no decisions on the sale or transfer of assets (outside ordinary course disposals) unless there are compelling Astrum: Kuwait time pressures which require an early decision be made. The plans will aim to secure maximum value for money Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, for the taxpayer and optimum benefits to the region in Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to assist question. Astrum with its bid to supply track spares to the Kuwait fleet of Desert Warrior armoured fighting vehicles. Apprentices [25819]

Mr McFadden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk [holding answer 22 November 2010]: UK Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department Trade and Investment Defence and Security Organisation plans to repeat the exercise undertaken for its study, has engaged with the Kuwait Ministry of Defence on Apprenticeship Pay: 2007 Survey of Earnings by Sector. the competition for Desert Warrior Track and has worked [25786] successfully in support of UK companies, including Astrum, which have been invited to tender for this Mr Hayes: This Department does plan to undertake contract. I understand that the tender process has now a survey of apprenticeship pay in 2011, following the closed and that the Kuwait Ministry of Defence is introduction of the new apprentice minimum wage. The currently in the process of considering the bids. 333W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 334W

Balance of Trade: Republic of Ireland Banks: Loans

Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the monetary Business, Innovation and Skills what recent steps his value was of (a) exports to and (b) imports from each Department has taken to increase the level of access to region of the UK in respect of the Republic of Ireland finance for small and medium-sized businesses. [26104] in the last five years for which figures are available. [26155] Mr Prisk: The Government are committed to improving access to finance for small and medium sized enterprises Mr Prisk: The data requested are shown in the following to enable them to grow and drive the recovery. tables for trade in goods, based on HM Revenue and On 1 November we published our response to the Customs regional trade statistics: consultation on business finance issues, “Financing a (a) UK exports of goods to the Republic of Ireland (£ million) private sector recovery” which is available at: 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 http://www.bis.gov.uk/businessfinance We have also published our strategy “Backing small United 16,205 17,202 17,632 18,586 15,484 Kingdom business” available at: total http://www.bis.gov.uk/backing-small-business North 313 357 372 387 253 setting out new measures to help SMEs grow and to East boost enterprise. North 1,237 1,357 1,385 1,412 1,224 West We have announced the following measures to increase Yorkshire 854 936 1,015 1,039 892 the level of access to finance for small and medium and the sized firms: Humber A four year extension to the Enterprise Finance Guarantee East 1,016 1,076 1,154 1,154 1,059 (EFG) making around £2 billion available to viable SMEs Midlands without a credit history or lacking sufficient collateral. West 831 936 990 900 681 An increased commitment to the Enterprise Capital Fund Midlands programme of £200 million to support small businesses with East 1,334 1,306 1,343 1,530 1,591 the highest growth potential, providing more than £300 million London 1,497 1,469 1,520 1,459 1,395 of venture capital investment into the equity gap after both South 2,019 2,042 2,094 2,151 1,868 Government and private sector funding are combined. East Furthermore, we have worked with the banks to create a new South 1,318 1,263 1,342 1,055 607 £1.5 billion Business Growth Fund, to provide equity funding West of between £2 million and £10 million for small and medium-sized Wales 847 951 913 1,137 898 businesses (SMEs) with strong growth potential. Scotland 735 559 449 382 346 Northern 2,006 2,272 2,436 2,513 2,112 Business: Government Assistance Ireland Unknown 2,199 2,678 2,620 3,466 2,559 Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many small and (b) UK imports of goods from the Republic of Ireland (£ million) medium-sized enterprises have received funding from 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 the Capital for Enterprise Fund since its establishment; United 10,005 10,417 11,249 12,020 12,265 and what proportion of his Department’s expenditure Kingdom on that scheme has been in respect of such enterprises. total [26101] North 95 42 74 57 48 East Mr Prisk: The Capital for Enterprise Fund (CfEF) is North 500 531 528 589 520 a £75 million fund including £50 million of public West funds, supported by £25 million from UK banks. Yorkshire 444 467 457 504 455 and the 38 companies have been invested in by CfEF’s underlying Humber funds. Overall investor commitment drawn to date is East 182 172 238 242 249 £52.1 million out of which the total Government Midlands commitment is £38.3 million. West 445 508 511 700 605 Midlands Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for East 1,226 1,294 1,959 2,476 3,079 Business, Innovation and Skills how many small and London 1,328 1,444 1,284 1,301 1,216 medium-sized enterprises have received funding from South 1,527 1,675 1,718 1,599 1,771 the Enterprise Finance Guarantee scheme since its East establishment; and what proportion of his Department’s South 358 482 543 495 474 expenditure on that scheme has been in respect of such West enterprises. [26102] Wales 127 99 91 74 91 Scotland 178 201 336 182 175 Mr Prisk: As of 17 November, 12,699 businesses have Northern 1,370 1,423 1,510 1,600 1,598 Ireland been offered Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG) backed Unknown 2,224 2,077 2,000 2,200 1,985 loans with a value of £1.29 billion, of which 10,968 business have drawn down loans totalling £1.1 billion. 335W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 336W

The EFG scheme guarantees bank lending to small Month Total (excluding VAT) (£) and medium-sized businesses with a turnover of up to £25 million. BIS expenditure on EFG would arise from October 2009 15,479.58 claims on the guarantee by an accredited lender should November 2009 13,470.36 a borrower default on their loan repayments. As such, December 2009 12,006.92 all of the Department’s expenditure of EFG has been January 2010 11,883.16 in respect to loans to small and medium-sized enterprises. February 2010 11,292.40 March 2010 14,890.40 Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for April 2010 12,361.06 Business, Innovation and Skills how many small and May 2010 9,761.30 medium-sized enterprises have received funds from the June 2010 7,302.04 Working Capital Scheme since its establishment; and July 2010 7,239.44 what proportion of his Department’s expenditure on August 2010 8,076.64 that scheme has been in respect of such enterprises. September 2010 7,910.40 [26103] October 2010 9,369.12 Mr Prisk: The previous Government launched the These figures cover the costs of producing and Working Capital Scheme (WCS) in January 2009 to distributing electronic and printed copies of the daily provide guarantees to banks on portfolios of loans: press cuttings. They excluded the copyright costs paid individual businesses were not eligible to apply for these to the Newspaper Licensing Authority (NLA) via our guarantees. It was announced in November 2009 that press cuttings service provider. no new guarantees would be available under the WCS. Information for spend on press cuttings services for All current guarantees will be honoured until the end of non-departmental public bodies is not held centrally the scheme on 31 March 2011. As there have been no and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. defaults to date, there has been no relevant expenditure. Departmental Regulation Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, had spent on the (a) Enterprise Finance Guarantee, Innovation and Skills what new regulations sponsored (b) Capital for Enterprise Fund and (c) Working Capital by his Department have been introduced through (a) Scheme between their inception and on the latest date primary legislation and (b) statutory instrument in the for which figures are available. [26107] last six months. [24498]

Mr Prisk: Both the Enterprise Finance Guarantee Mr Prisk: In the last six months, BIS has (a) not and Working Capital Scheme operate as loan guarantee introduced any regulations through primary legislation schemes whereby Government expenditure arises from and has (b) introduced 20 regulations through statutory defaults. The Capital for Enterprise Fund is an equity instruments. Of the 20 measures, only four impose a fund scheme. cost on business. During the time period the Postal Under the Enterprise Finance Guarantee, 12,699 Services Bill was introduced into Parliament. businesses have been offered loans with a value of £1.29 Economic Growth billion, of which 10,968 businesses have drawn down loans totalling £1.1 billion. The total Government Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, expenditure to date is £6.1 million. Innovation and Skills what contribution he expects The Working Capital Scheme provided guarantees to regional growth hubs to make to economic growth in banks of £2.2 billion to release regulatory capital for the period of the Comprehensive Spending Review. new lending. To date there have been no defaults to date [25803] under the Working Capital Scheme, and as such there has been no relevant expenditure. Mr Prisk: It is too early to make such an assessment Under the Capital for Enterprise Fund, the Government for growth hubs. Where analytical evidence is available have committed £50 million of funds towards an overall from services which might be offered within growth fund size of £75 million. From this £38.3 million has hubs, the evidence suggests the impact will be substantial. been drawn from the Government contribution of SME The Department will set out its proposals in due course. investments. Foreign Investment in UK Departmental Press: Subscriptions Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many potential inward Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, investment deals UK Trade and Investment has negotiated Innovation and Skills how much (a) his Department since May 2010; and in respect of what proportion and (b) the non-departmental public bodies for which contracts have been agreed. [25409] he is responsible spent on press cuttings services in each of the last 12 months. [25496] Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) has been involved in 102 foreign direct investment (FDI) Mr Davey: Spend on press cuttings services in the projects, confirmed as locating or expanding in the UK, 12 months since October 2009 by the Department’s between 1 May and 17 November. UKTI has been Press Office is: involved in a further 224 FDI projects confirmed during 337W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 338W the same period as being expected to locate or expand Graduates: Income in the UK, but where final confirmation of the location or expansion has not yet been received. Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate his Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Department has made of the average additional lifetime Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the earnings of higher education graduates; when this figure monetary value of inward investment attributable to was most recently calculated; and how many students the influence of UK Trade and Investment in each of were in higher education at that time. [23712] the last five years. [25444] Mr Willetts: The Department draws on various estimates Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) records of the lifetime earnings benefits for degree holders, the numbers of foreign direct investment (FDI) projects arising from both external and internal analysis. Generally entering the UK each year, together with the investing they all estimate the lifetime earnings benefits of having companies estimates of associated jobs and capital a first degree over and above two or more A-levels (the expenditure for the first three years of each FDI project. ‘graduate premium’). In many cases companies do not provide capital expenditure These estimates indicate that first degree graduates data so the recorded figures for that are partial. Within can expect to earn, on average, over £100,000 more over the overall total for the UK, the figures for each of the their working life, in today’s values and net of taxes, last five years in respect of projects assisted by UKTI than similar individuals who stop their education with are as follow; two or more A-levels This is for the average graduate, and the actual position Capital UKTI Total No. investment for any individual will vary around this average. assisted No. of of (where There have been several calculations of the graduate FDI No. of safeguarded associated supplied) projects new jobs jobs jobs (£) premium in recent years, using data from different time periods and/or slightly different methods, though they 2005/06 449 12,507 5,940 18,447 1,389,453,250 have all used data from the Labour Force Survey (LFS—a 2006/07 496 13,611 3,267 19,878 973,331,000 sample survey) and the broad approach is consistent. 2007/08 549 14,274 9,824 24,098 583,746,000 These have all come to similar conclusions, albeit with 2008/09 600 10,678 18,600 29,278 2,420,905,617 slightly different estimates, which is why it is generally 2009/10 759 32,557 14,661 47,218 3,978,749,064 not expressed as a single figure but rather as a range or Totals 2,853 83,627 52,292 138,919 9,346,184,931 being above a certain value. Some of the estimates are noted as follows, along with an indication of the data periods used for each Foreign Investment in UK: Yorkshire one:

Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, LFS data Graduate premium period estimate Source Innovation and Skills what proportion of Government- supported inward investment in respect of Yorkshire 1994-2002 Net males: £142,000 1Sloane and O’Leary, 2005 was attributable to (a) UK Trade and Investment and Net females: (b) Yorkshire Forward in the latest period for which £158,000 figures are available. [25440] 2000-05 Gross: £160,000 2PWC, 2007 Mr Prisk: For the financial year 2009/10, which is the (Net c.£110,000- last period for which full figures are available, a total of £120,000) 147 foreign direct investment projects was recorded by UKTI in the Yorkshire and Humber region. A total of 2004-07 Net £20,000 DIUS internal, 2008 93 were assisted by Yorkshire Forward, UKTI or a 1 “The Return to a University Education in Great Britain, O’Leary, combination of the two. This breaks down as follows: N.C. and P.J. Sloane (2005), National Institute Economic Review, No. 193; pp 75-89. (i) UKTI and Yorkshire Forward jointly: 27; 2 “The Economic Benefits of a degree”, UUK/PWC, February 2007. (ii) UKTI alone: 11; http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/Publications/Documents/research- gradprem.pdf (iii) Yorkshire Forward alone: 55. HM Government currently fund the work of the The number of students in higher education for each regional development agencies (RDAs) through the RDAs’ academic year since 1999/2000 was as follows: Single Budget, which is administered by the Department All HE students Undergraduate only of Business, Innovation and Skills. UKTI is one of the Government Departments which contributes to the RDAs’ English English Single Budget. UKTI’s contribution is specifically intended UK HEIs HEIs UK HEIs HEIs to fund the foreign direct investment work of the RDAs, 1999/2000 1,856,330 1,540,610 1,447,710 1,198,330 including Yorkshire Forward, as part of the UKTI-led 2000/01 1,990,625 1,656,700 1,541,925 1,278,895 national foreign direct investment effort. 2001/02 2,086,075 1,726,840 1,616,225 1,334,510 UKTI’s estimated contribution to Yorkshire Forward 2002/03 2,175,115 1,807,660 1,677,615 1,390,915 in the financial year 2009/10 was £2,183,000, 13.31% of 2003/04 2,247,440 1,868,415 1,723,615 1,428,430 the total of £16,401,000 paid by UKTI into the RDAs’ 2004/05 2,287,540 1,895,825 1,754,910 1,448,380 Single Budget during this period. 2005/06 2,336,110 1,936,420 1,790,740 1,481,985 339W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 340W

Higher Education: Finance All HE students Undergraduate only English English Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for UK HEIs HEIs UK HEIs HEIs Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has 2006/07 2,362,815 1,957,190 1,803,425 1,494,760 made of the effect on skills training of his proposed 2007/08 2,306,105 1,922,180 1,804,970 1,505,015 changes to higher education funding; and what statistical 2008/09 2,396,050 2,005,840 1,859,240 1,556,525 evidence he evaluated in making that assessment. Source: [23375] HESA data. All: modes of study, levels of study, domiciles. http://www. hesa.ac.uk/index.php/component/option.com_datatables/ltemid,121/ Mr Willetts: Our proposed changes allow us to maintain task,show_category/catdex,3/#institution the supply of high-level skills. They open up opportunities for new providers, and offer improved student support Green Investment Bank: South West for part-time students, many of whom will be within the existing work force. Those eligible for part-time support Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, will rise to around 150,000; currently only around 60,000 Innovation and Skills if he will put in place measures to receive support. ensure that the South West benefits from the creation of Prospective higher education learners of all ages will the Green Investment Bank. [24894] be better-informed and have real choice. Mr Prisk: As outlined in the spending review statement, The forthcoming higher education White Paper will we are committed to establishing a UK-wide Green set out how we expect the higher education sector to Investment Bank, which will focus on the financing of develop the high level skills of both our future and green infrastructure projects and the deployment of existing workforce, and so support economic growth. late-stage green technologies. Work on the business and Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, operating model is currently under way, and we will be Innovation and Skills what estimate his Department guided by the Government’s tests of effectiveness, has made of (a) the costs of processing graduate affordability and transparency. repayments and (b) other costs to the Student Loan My hon. Friend may wish to note that we will be Company of implementing his proposals to reform the completing design work and further market testing by funding of universities and students; and whether such May 2011. Therefore, I am unable to provide further costs will be met from his Department’s budget. [26196] details of the institution’s final design at this stage. However, the intention is to create an institution with Mr Willetts: We expect to publish an interim impact powers to invest across the UK. The Government’s assessment relating to the Government’s proposals for current view is that this should be feasible. urgent reforms to Higher Education funding and student finance at the same time as the first draft regulations Higher Education relating to the these reforms are brought before Parliament. The interim impact assessment will include projections Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for of the costs of processing graduate repayments and Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has other related costs for the Student Loans Company, made of the likely effects on the behavioural patterns of although it should be noted that these projections will potential undergraduates in respect of making applications be indicative and will be refined in due course. Costs to higher education institutions of his proposed changes will be met from within the Department’s spending to higher education funding; what evidence he took into review budget allocation. The interim impact assessment account in making this assessment; and if he will make will be published on the BIS website and a copy will be a statement. [25691] forwarded to the hon. Member. Mr Willetts: To support the Browne Review and the Higher Education: Mature Students Government’s response, we commissioned research by the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) to explore how Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, changes in fees, grants and loans impact on participation. Innovation and Skills what recent assessment his This research drew on variation in grants, fees and Department has made of the (a) particular requirements loans over the period 1992-2007, and indicated that a of mature students and (b) reasons for recent trends in £1,000 increase in fees results in a 4.4ppt decrease in respect of the number of university (i) applications and university participation, while a £1,000 increase in loans (ii) acceptances in respect of mature students. [26193] results in a 3.2ppt increase in participation, and a £1,000 increase in grants results in a 2.1ppt increase in Mr Willetts: We are providing extra help to mature participation; therefore offsetting any effect from an students by ensuring that part-time under graduates, increase in fees. studying for at least a third of their time, will not have The Government’s proposals provide a more generous to face up front fees because they can access the same package of grants and loans to ensure that no students progressive finance package as full-time students. 93% face any up-front costs for tuition and those from lower of part-time under graduate enrolments are mature income households, while studying, get more support students. Those eligible for part-time support will rise for their living costs. The Government are also due to to around 150,000; currently only 60,000 receive support. consult on the details of the National Scholarships The most recent data available show that the number programme aimed at providing further targeted support of applicants in respect of mature students (defined as for students. The more progressive repayment system of being aged 21 and over) to English institutions by graduate contributions to the cost of university education domicile at the main scheme deadline for the period will also protect any low-earning graduates. 2007 to 2010 was as follows: 341W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 342W

Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2007 2008 2009 2010 Innovation and Skills whether he has had discussions UK and other 82,245 98,513 117,678 139,729 with the Sector Skills Councils on the implications for EU individuals aged 24 years and over of requiring them to Non-EU 12,205 12,502 12,632 13,688 take out loans to pay for a level three qualification from Total 94,450 111,015 130,310 153,417 2013/14 as part of the implementation of his Department’s proposals. [26143] and that the acceptances, for the same period, were as Mr Hayes: “Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth” follows: (16 November 2010) sets out the funding strategy for post-19 Further Education (FE) and Skills. The introduction 2007 2008 2009 2010 of new FE loans from the 2013/14 academic year provides the capacity for learner investment. We recognise that UK and other 66,024 79,317 86,621 83,764 this is a significant reform and that is why we are EU phasing in the changes over the spending review period Non-EU 7,820 7,662 8,207 8,089 to provide the sector with sufficient time to plan effectively. Total 73,844 86,979 94,828 91,853 Note: As set out in “Investing in Skills for Sustainable In 2008 the Nursing and Midwifery Admissions Service (NMAS) was Growth”, over the next few months we will engage with incorporated into the main UCAS system for the first time. In 2008 colleges, training organisations and others on the details there were 9,295 applicants who applied only to NMAS courses, and of how fee loans will be implemented to ensure the 8,410 who were accepted. approach to fee loans recognises the characteristics of Source: Universities and Colleges Application Service (UCAS). different types of learners and identifies the particular delivery arrangements appropriate for the FE and Skills sector. Local Enterprise Partnerships: North West Mobile Phones: Prices Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has been Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, made on approval of a local economic partnership for Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with Ofcom on the cost of calling 0870 and 0845 numbers Pennine-Lancashire. [25903] from mobile telephones. [24097] Mr Prisk: Three conflicting proposals were made in Mr Vaizey: I have had no discussions with Ofcom on Lancashire. At the moment, positive discussions are this issue, as under the Communications Act 2003, taking place about how those can be rationalised, and Ofcom has responsibility for numbering policy, which officials will continue to work with both business and includes the provision of 0870 and 0845 number ranges. civic leaders to find a sensible arrangement. Since 2006, in response to consumer concern, Ofcom has introduced a range of measures that has made 0870 and 0845 calls cheaper for calls from landlines, although Mature Students: Loans this has not been possible for calls from mobile telephones due to the additional costs, which are usually involved Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for in transmitting and connecting the call from the mobile Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has network. made of the number of individuals aged 24 years and Earlier this year, Ofcom started a review of the over who will be obliged to take out loans to pay for a consumer experience of non-geographic numbers to level three qualification from 2013-14 as a result of the consider whether they need to restructure the regulations implementation of his Department’s proposals. [26142] that control the delivery of non-geographic calls services to consumers. These are telephone numbers beginning Mr Hayes: ‘Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth’ with 03, 05, 070/076, 08, 09, 116 and 118. They expect (16 November 2010) sets out the funding strategy for to publish their consultation shortly, and full details of post-19 further education (FE) and skills. The introduction its proposals will be available on its website: of new FE loans from the 2013/14 academic year provides the capacity for learner investment. We recognise that www.ofcom.org.uk this is a significant reform and that is why we are North East of England Development Board phasing in the changes over the spending review period to provide the sector with sufficient time to plan effectively. Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for As set out in ‘Investing in Skills for Sustainable Business, Innovation and Skills what the functions of Growth’, over the next few months we will engage with the North East of England Development Board are; colleges, training organisations and others on the details and if he will make a statement. [25641] of how fee loans will be implemented to ensure the approach to fee loans recognises the characteristics of Mr Prisk: The North East Industrial Development different types of learners and identifies the particular Board closed on 23 February 2010. The principal function delivery arrangements appropriate for the FE and skills of the Board was to advise One North East on applications sector. for regional selective assistance under the Grant for It is therefore not possible to estimate the number of Business Investment (GBI) scheme and its predecessors learners who will be eligible for fee loans in the 2013/14 of over £250,000 and less than £2 million. From time to academic year. time the Board was also asked to advise One North 343W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 344W

East on: applications for selective financial assistance Number of UKTI outward trade missions that fell outside current forms of support; applications 2010-11 submitted under the Tees Valley Industrial programme Country 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 (to date) Total (TVIP); proposals to make major modifications to existing Chile 0 1 1 0 2 forms of support; proposals to introduce new forms of China 20 29 30 24 103 support under Section 8 of the Industrial Development Croatia 0 1 1 0 2 Act 1982; administrative aspects of GBI and other Cyprus 0 1 0 0 1 schemes; and to provide information on the state of the Czech 312 06 regional economy to the Government Office for the Republic North East as part of its quarterly report. Denmark 1 1 2 0 4 These functions were transferred to the North East Egypt 2 6 1 0 9 Investment Advisory Panel on its creation in March Estonia 0 1 0 1 2 2010. Finland 0 2 0 1 3 France 3 5 4 3 15 Northwest Regional Development Agency: Assets Germany252 09 Ghana 0 2 3 1 6 Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Hong Kong 652 114 Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions (SAR) his Department has had on the sale of assets owned by Hungary 3 0 0 0 3 the North West Development Agency; and if he will India131710646 make a statement. [25902] Indonesia 0 0 1 2 3 Iraq 0 0 1 0 1 Mr Prisk: This Department has been having ongoing Ireland 0 0 1 0 1 discussions on the principles and process for the disposal Israel 2 4 3 0 9 of all regional development agency (RDA) assets and Italy 0 5 2 4 11 liabilities. Detailed guidance to RDAs is still being Japan 11 10 6 4 31 prepared and this will enable plans to be developed for transition. Until these plans are completed there will be Jordan012 14 no decisions on the sale or transfer of assets (outside Kenya032 05 ordinary course disposals) unless there are compelling Korea 114 28 (South) time pressures which require an early decision be made. Kuwait 0 1 1 0 2 The plans will aim to secure maximum value for money for the taxpayer and optimum benefits to the region in Latvia 0 1 0 1 2 question. Lebanon 0 0 1 0 1 Libya 0 6 10 5 21 Overseas Trade Macao 200 02 (SAR) Malaysia 1 3 3 3 10 Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mexico 4 3 4 3 14 Innovation and Skills how many trade missions his Montenegro 0 1 0 0 1 Department has led to each country in each of the last Morocco 0 2 0 0 2 five years. [25445] Netherlands 1 1 0 0 2 New 010 01 Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment funds national Zealand and regional outward trade missions which give companies Nigeria 3 6 1 0 10 the opportunity to visit overseas markets as part of a UK delegation. Information held on the UKTI Client Norway 1 0 0 2 3 Relationship Management (CRM) system on the number Oman 1 0 1 0 2 of missions funded since April 2007 is reflected in the Panama 0 0 1 0 1 following table. These figures do not include support for Philippines 3 1 1 0 5 exhibitions or individual events overseas. Before that Poland 8 6 3 0 17 date, full records were not held centrally and could be Portugal 5 3 3 3 14 retrieved only at disproportionate cost. Qatar 3 4 6 1 14 Romania 3 8 2 0 13 Number of UKTI outward trade missions Russia 5 5 8 5 23 2010-11 Country 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 (to date) Total Saudi 875 020 Arabia Algeria 0 1 0 0 1 Serbia 0 1 0 0 1 Argentina 0 0 1 0 1 Singapore 1 0 6 2 9 Australia 1 0 1 1 3 Slovakia 2 0 0 0 2 Austria 0 0 2 1 3 Slovenia 0 1 0 0 1 Bahrain 1 2 1 0 4 South 434 112 Belgium 0 1 0 1 2 Africa Brazil 8 8 11 9 36 Spain 4 0 4 0 8 Brunei 0 1 0 0 1 Sweden 3 2 0 0 5 Bulgaria 4 3 2 1 10 Switzerland 2 6 3 0 11 Canada 5 8 3 1 17 Syria 0 0 1 0 1 345W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 346W

Number of UKTI outward trade missions At all stages in the appraisal and approval process, 2010-11 the only criteria applications will be judged against are Country 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 (to date) Total those that are published. However, this is a challenge Taiwan 1 7 2 2 12 fund, which will mean that some bids that meet the Thailand 2 0 2 0 4 criteria will not be successful, as in that particular Tunisia 0 0 2 0 2 bidding round there were stronger bids that also meet all the criteria. Turkey544 215 Ukraine 0 1 0 0 1 United 9 8 10 3 30 Students: Fees and Charges Arab Emirates Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for United 19 21 21 15 76 Business, Innovation and Skills what information his States Department holds for benchmarking purposes on Venezuela 1 0 0 0 1 the average tuition fees charged by state-funded Vietnam 1 1 1 1 4 universities in each other EU member state. [25692] Total 188 239 211 113 751 Mr Willetts: The Department does not hold any Regional Growth Fund information for benchmarking purposes on the average tuition fees charged by state-funded universities in each EU member state other than the UK. John Stevenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the closing date is However, the Department recently published a study for the second tranche of applications to the Regional which it had commissioned to build the evidence base Growth Fund. [24304] for the Browne review which contained information on the tuition fees charged in a number of EU and other countries. The study entitled “Review of Student Support Mr Prisk [holding answer 23 November 2010]: The Arrangements in Other Countries”by London Economics first round of bidding for the Regional Growth Fund was published in September 2010: opened with the launch of the Local Growth White http://www.bis.gov.Uk/assets/biscore/corporate/docs/r/10-670- Paper (28 October), and will close on the 21 January review-student-support-in-other-countries.pdf 2011. Further information on the contributions for tertiary Following the closure of the first round and assessment education made by individuals and Government are of how that round progressed, the dates for the second published by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation round will be announced via the Regional Growth and Development (OECD), most recently in their Education Fund webpage hosted by the BIS website. at a Glance 2010 publication. It is envisaged that there will be at least three bidding rounds. Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer to the Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for hon. Member for Harrow West of 17 November 2010, Business, Innovation and Skills what mechanisms will Official Report, column 888W, on students: fees and be in place to ensure fairness in respect of the funding charges, whether part-time students receiving fees loans allocated to regions from the regional growth fund. on the same basis as full-time students will be subject to [25288] the same (a) minimum and (b) maximum fee cap as full-time students. [25922] Mr Prisk: The regional growth fund is a challenge fund that is open to bids from the private sector, or Mr Willetts: Unlike full-time fees, part-time fees are public private partnership from any part of England. currently unregulated. We are considering all the issues Bids will be expected to demonstrate how they meet the around support for part-time students in consultation fund’s two published objectives: with representatives of the part-time sector. We will announce the details in due course. stimulate enterprise by providing support for projects and programmes with significant potential for economic growth and create additional sustainable private sector employment; and Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish an equality support in particular those areas and communities that are currently dependent on the public sector make the transition to impact assessment of his proposal to increase the maximum sustainable private sector-led growth and prosperity. level tuition fees before bringing forward his legislative proposals on that matter; and if he will make a statement. To help applicants, the Department for Business, [26194] Innovation and Skills (BIS) has produced guidance that details the criteria that bids will be assessed against to Mr Willetts: We expect to publish an interim equality meet the two objectives. impact assessment relating to the Government’s proposals BIS has also published an outline of the fund’s appraisal for reforms to higher education funding and student process, part of which includes an assessment by an finance at the same time as the first draft regulations independent advisory panel chaired by my noble Friend relating to the these reforms are laid before Parliament. Lord Heseltine. All of these are available on the regional The interim equality impact assessment will include growth fund web page: coverage of the proposed increase in the maximum level http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/regional-economic- of charges which universities will be allowed to set. It development/regional-growth-fund will be published on the BIS website. 347W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 348W

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment uses Infor’s Innovation and Skills what account he plans to take of Epiphany Customer Relationship Management system. recent trends in respect of the number of (a) unsuccessful This system is accessible to UKTI staff in the UK and applicants reapplying and (b) students who are likely to overseas and in addition to Business, Innovation and seek to enter university in 2011-12 in formulating his Skills (BIS), Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) proposals to increase the level of student fees from and Ministry of Defence (MOD) staff who have a 2012-13. [26195] business need to access customer data.

Mr Willetts: The reforms to the system of higher UK Trade and Investment: Yorkshire education (HE) funding are aimed at producing a more sustainable environment in which our HE institutions Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, will be able to flourish. We expect student numbers to Innovation and Skills how many roadshows or other be broadly maintained. Our plans for student numbers presentations promoting its activities UK Trade and in 2011-12 will be set out in the Higher Education Investment has undertaken in Yorkshire since May Funding Council for England’s (HEFCE) grant letter 2010. [25412] which will be published shortly. Mr Prisk: UKTI organises events to communicate UK Trade and Investment the importance of trading internationally to companies and to highlight the opportunities in particular markets Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, and sectors. At each event UKTI will explain the support Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he has made they are able to offer. Since May 2010 UKTI have of the proportion of UK Trade and Investment activity organised 14 such events in Yorkshire. which relates to (a) exports and (b) inward investment. Other organisations such as banks, accountants and [25411] legal firms organise events for clients and UKTI staff have spoken about international opportunities and support Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investments 2009-10 Resource at 20 such events in Yorkshire since May 2010. Accounts (HC 3) report that the total budget for UKTI was £350.4 million. Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Of this, £270.2 million was spent on activity to enhance Innovation and Skills how much has been spent by UK (a) (b) the competitiveness of companies in the UK through Trade and Investment in North Yorkshire and overseas trade and £80.2 million on activity to attract a Yorkshire in the last five years. [25437] continuing high level of quality foreign direct investment. Mr Prisk: The money spent by UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) on its trade delivery activity in Yorkshire and Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Humber over the past five years is as follows: Innovation and Skills how many businesses UK Trade and Investment has assisted with exports in the last 12 £ months. [25441] 2006-07 2,868,000 Mr Prisk: The latest UKTI Performance and Impact 2007-08 2,681,000 Monitoring Survey (PIMS) reported in September 2010. 2008-09 2,478,000 PIMS results against all key performance measures are 2009-10 2,562,000 reported on a rolling four-quarter basis, enabling robust 2010-11 (April to October) 1,656,000 coverage across all UKTI trade services. Expenditure on sub-regional activity across Yorkshire Latest results relate to service delivery mainly carried and the Humber (Y&H) is not available but will broadly out between April 2009 and March 2010 and show that reflect the business densities in different parts of the the number of trade clients helped by UKTI rose to Y&H region. Based on previous activity contracted 24,700 (up from 23,700) during the 12 months measured through Business Link North Yorkshire (up to 31 March in the survey. 2008), we estimate that around 15% of UKTI’s trade delivery expenditure is focused on North Yorkshire. Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of UK Trade These figures exclude direct grants that companies and Investment’s clients were small businesses in the obtained from UKTI for attendance at overseas trade latest period for which figures are available. [25442] fairs and exhibitions. Workers’ Educational Association: Finance Mr Prisk: UKTI supported 24,700 companies during 2009-10; of which 86% of supported firms were SMEs (i.e. <250 employees). Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for expenditure on (a) the Workers’ Educational Association UK Trade and Investment: ICT and (b) other special designated institutions; and if he will make a statement. [25932] Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what client relationship management Mr Hayes: ‘Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth’ system is used by UK Trade and Investment; and what (16 November 2010) sets out the funding strategy for access other Government Departments have to that post-19 further education (FE) and skills. In 2011-12 system. [25416] financial year we will invest £3.9 billion to support an 349W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 350W expansion of adult (19+) apprenticeships, fully subsidise The Government’s main policy objective in relation basic literacy and numeracy and first full level 2 and to the coal industry is to ensure that the United Kingdom level 3 qualifications for young adults. We will also is enabled to make best use of a valuable natural resource support individuals who are unemployed and on active where it is economically viable and environmentally benefits, and protect and reform spending on adult and acceptable to do so. community learning. In 2009 coal provided 28% of the UK’s electricity The allocation of funding for the 2011/12 academic supply. year will be carried out by the Skills Funding Agency, Source: over the coming months, in line with the overall post-19 Digest of UK Energy Statistics 2010, Department of Energy and FE and skills funding envelope. This will include making Climate Change. funding allocations for the Workers’ Educational Association and other specialist designated institutions. Energy: Housing

Yorkshire Forward: Assets Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many households in Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for each electoral ward in the UK received assistance in Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions respect of each measure delivered by each energy supplier his Department has had on the sale of assets owned by under the Carbon Emission Reduction targets in each Yorkshire Forward. [25433] quarter from April 2008 to October 2010; and if he will make a statement. [26091] Mr Prisk: This Department has been having ongoing discussions on the principles and process for the disposal Gregory Barker: Information on the regional distribution of all RDA assets and liabilities. Detailed guidance to of measures installed under the Carbon Emissions RDAs is still being prepared and this will enable plans Reduction Target (CERT) scheme was published for the to be developed for transition. Until these plans are first time on 16 September, demonstrating this completed there will be no decisions on the sale or Government’s commitment to greater transparency. The transfer of assets (outside ordinary course disposals) provision of this information is possible due to a voluntary unless there are compelling time pressures which require agreement negotiated by Government with energy suppliers an early decision be made. The plans will aim to secure and the Energy Saving Trust. Information on individual maximum value for money for the taxpayer and optimum energy supplier activity at a regional level is not available. benefits to the region in question. The Energy Saving Trust report details the number of cavity wall and loft insulation measures installed in each local authority area in Great Britain (CERT is not delivered in Northern Ireland) for each of the first two ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE years of CERT. The report is available at: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/business/Business/ Coal Information/Homes-Energy-Efficiency-Database-HEED/ CERT-reports-from-HEED A copy is available in the Libraries of the House. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he Energy: Prices has made of the amount of surface or near-surface coal available in the UK; and what assessment he has made Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy of its potential contribution to meeting the UK’s energy and Climate Change what provisions he plans to include needs. [26131] in the Energy Security and Green Economy Bill to ensure that energy companies enable customers to compare Charles Hendry: The following table provides a tariffs easily; and if he will make a statement. [25654] breakdown of identified surface coal reserves in the UK. Gregory Barker: The Energy Security and Green Energy Bill will include powers to require energy suppliers Million tonnes to inform consumers through their bills about the cheapest Current sites and licences available tariff to give customers greater control over Operational sites 40 their energy costs. Planning granted 18 Heating In planning process 20 Pre-planning 54 Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will assess the carbon Prospects previously identified by footprint of heat pumps; and if he will make a British Coal statement. [25378] Well developed 121 Fully and partly proved 142 Gregory Barker: The carbon footprint of a heat pump Potential 474 is dependent on a number of factors including its overall efficiency, whether it is providing space heating Total 869 and/or hot water, temperature lifts, the refrigerant used, Source: the size of the building, levels of insulation, the hours The Coal Authority, March 2010 of operation, and various design, installation and 351W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 352W maintenance issues. The EU renewables directive requires Wind Power that heat pumps must have a minimum Seasonal Performance Factor in order to qualify as a renewable Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for source. The Commission are to issue guidance on how Energy and Climate Change what proportion of energy the Seasonal Performance Factor is to be calculated. in the UK will be supplied by wind technology by 2030. An SPF of around 2.7 would make CO2 emissions [25280] from gas condensing boilers and heat pumps more or less equivalent with today’s grid intensity. At this level Charles Hendry: There is currently no target for of performance the CO2 emissions associated with running renewable energy in 2030. Estimates of how much electricity a heat pump are considerably lower than those associated will be supplied by wind in 2030 differ greatly, reflecting with using either oil or electric resistive heating. CO2 high levels of uncertainty. The 2050 pathways analysis1 savings against all these fuels will improve further, as has four trajectories for wind development, which have the electricity grid decarbonises. The Energy Saving the following implications for wind deployment in 2030 Trust field trials are not complete, but, when they are, (all shown in TWh/year in 2030): they will provide useful information on the actual system efficiencies, as well as information to improve installation TWh/year in and maintenance practice. 2030 Onshore wind Offshore wind Total wind

Nuclear Power Stations: Construction Level 1 22 22 43 Level 2 53 137 190 Level 3 82 213 295 Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for Level 4 113 307 420 Energy and Climate Change whether loan guarantees constitute a public subsidy for the purposes of his Future electricity and energy demand is also uncertain. policy on the construction of new nuclear power stations; Under the 2050 alpha scenario, for example (seven and if he will make a statement. [25630] pathways were published), onshore wind and offshore are both assumed to be at level 2, and total electricity Charles Hendry [holding answer 22 November 2010]: generation around 563TWh (nearly 50% higher than in The Government have not had cause to consider any 2009). In this scenario (one of many possibilities), wind specific proposal for loan guarantees in the context of would represent around 34% of total electricity generation. its policy of no subsidy for new nuclear power. It would not be appropriate to speculate in the absence of any My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has specific proposal, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary written to the Committee on Climate Change asking of State set out the generality of the Government’s them to consider the level of ambition for renewables policy in a detailed written statement on 18 October for 2020 and possible pathways through to 2030. They 2010, Official Report, column 44WS. should provide final recommendations by the end of March 2011. Radioactive Waste 1 2050 Pathways Analysis available at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we-do/lc_uk/ Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for 2050/2050.aspx Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment has been made of the adequacy of capacity of low-level nuclear waste disposal sites. [26064] NORTHERN IRELAND Charles Hendry: An extensive review of low level waste (LLW) management practices was carried out for Departmental Written Questions the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority in 2008, published as the LLW strategic review in January 2009 and made publicly available on the Low Level Waste Repository Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for (LLWR) website. This review considered all aspects of Northern Ireland how many and what proportion of LLW management including disposal infrastructure. questions tabled to the Secretary of State for written answer on a named day were answered substantively The strategic review fully recognised that, without before or on the day named for answer (a) in Session improvements in application of the waste hierarchy to 2009-10 and (b) since May 2010; how many such avoid waste creation and promote recycling, volume questions tabled between May 2010 and 12 November reduction, better waste segregation and use of more 2010 had not received a substantive answer by 18 November appropriate waste disposal routes, the LLWR in Cumbria 2010; and what estimate he has made of the average (which has in the past been the default destination for cost to his Department of answering a question for much LLW) will not provide the capacity required to written answer on a named day on the day named for manage the whole of the UK’s projected inventory of answer in the latest period for which figures are available. LLW. A significant opportunity is to preserve capacity [25977] at LLWR for those wastes that require the levels of safety and environmental protection provided by the Mr Paterson: The information is as follow: facility, and to develop better waste segregation and alternative disposal capacity for lower hazard LLW and (a) The Government have committed to providing the Procedure very low level waste. Committee with sessional statistics in a standard format on the time taken to respond to written parliamentary questions for the A revision of the LLW strategic review is currently 2009-10 session. This information will be submitted to the Procedure underway and will be published in the next few months. Committee shortly. 353W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 354W

(b) In the period from May 2010 to 12 November 2010, the Mr Paterson: Since the devolution of policing and Northern Ireland Office (NIO) received a total of nine named day justice on 12 April 2010, all matters relating to the work parliamentary questions, of which six (67%) were answered on or of the Historical Enquires Team rest with the Northern before the day named. Ireland Department of Justice. The hon. Lady may All questions tabled between May 2010 and 12 November therefore wish to write to the Justice Minister (David 2010 have received a substantive answer. Ford) in relation to this matter. An estimation of the costs in answering parliamentary questions was provided in a written ministerial statement on 20 January 2010, Official Report, column 15WS. WORK AND PENSIONS Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Access to Work Programme Northern Ireland how many and what proportion of questions tabled to the Secretary of State for ordinary Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for written answer (a) in Session 2009-10 and (b) since Work and Pensions how much was allocated for (a) May 2010 were answered within (i) seven days and (ii) sign language interpreters, (b) palantypists, (c) office 14 days of tabling; how many such questions tabled adjustments and (d) other support for people with between May 2010 and 12 November 2010 remained hearing impairment through the Access to Work scheme unanswered by 18 November 2010; and what estimate in (i) 2007-08, (ii) 2008-09 and (iii) 2009-10. [23316] he has made of the average cost to his Department of answering a question for ordinary written answer Maria Miller: I am unable to answer this question as within seven days of tabling in the latest period for the Access to Work management information system which figures are available. [25978] does not categorise support provided down to this level of detail. Mr Paterson: The information is as follows: (a) The Government have committed to providing the Procedure Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Committee with sessional statistics in a standard format on the Work and Pensions how many people with hearing time taken to respond to written parliamentary questions for the impairment participated in the Access to Work scheme 2009-10 session. This information will be submitted to the Procedure in (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10. [23317] Committee shortly. (b) My Department does not hold this information in the Maria Miller: Access to Work helped the following format requested. In the period from May 2010 to 12 November number of people in each year who said that their 2010, the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) received a total of 111 primary medical condition was “difficulty in hearing”: ordinary written parliamentary questions, of which 81 (73%) were answered within five sitting days. Number All questions tabled between May 2010 and 12 November 2010 have received a substantive answer. 2007-08 4,450 2008-09 4,920 An estimation of the costs in answering parliamentary 2009-10 5,460 questions was provided in a written ministerial statement on 20 January 2010, Official Report, column 15WS. Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Eames-Bradley Report Work and Pensions how much was allocated to the Access to Work scheme in 2010-11; and how much he plans to allocate to the scheme in (a) 2011-12, (b) Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012-13 and (c) 2013-14. [23333] Northern Ireland if he will place in the Library a copy of each written representation received by his Department Maria Miller: Budgets for directly delivered programmes on the Eames-Bradley report since May 2010. [25733] such as Access to Work are subject to in-year review and it is not possible to specify in advance the amounts Mr Paterson: The public consultation on the Eames- that will be spent. Information on spend is however Bradley report took place under the previous Government available after the end of a financial year. and I published a detailed summary of the responses in July of this year. I will place a copy of this summary in Disability Living Allowance the Library. The Government have not received formal written representations on the report since May 2010, Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work but continues to receive correspondence on the wider and Pensions what proportion of people in receipt of question of dealing with the past, some of which notes the mobility component of the disability living allowance the contents of the Eames-Bradley report. (a) were moved from the higher to the lower rate mobility component and (b) had that component of Historical Enquiries Team: Finance the allowance removed (i) in 2009 and (ii) since May 2010. [26144]

Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Maria Miller: The proportion of disability living Northern Ireland what proportion of the funding allowance claimants with mobility component in payment allocated to the Historical Enquiries Team was spent who moved from higher to lower rate or had their on (a) staff accommodation and (b) staff transport allowance removed in 2009 is in the following table. costs, including flights, in each of the last three years. This information is not yet available for the period from [25732] May 2010. 355W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 356W

Moved from higher to lower rate Had allowance removed Higher mobility in Mobility in Quarter to: payment Number Percentage payment Number Percentage

February 2009 1,745,830 1,010 0.1 2,623,810 39,140 1.5 May 2009 1,750,760 1,020 0.1 2,643,950 36,620 1.4 August 2009 1,758,140 1,070 0.1 2,667,090 35,910 1.3 November 2009 1,765,610 1,300 0.1 2,689,310 40,730 1.5 Notes: 1. Caseloads are rounded to the nearest 10. Totals may not sum due to rounding. Percentages are rounded to one decimal point. 2. “-” = Nil or negligible. 3. Totals show both the number of people in receipt of an allowance and those with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. 4. ‘Had allowance removed’ are those with mobility in payment in the previous quarter who no longer receive a payment. Source: Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate

Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes On 25 October 2010 we launched Work Choice, a new pan-disability supported employment programme for disabled people, which provides tailored support Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and targets those customers who face the most complex and Pensions if he will reverse his decision to remove barriers in reaching or retaining employment, including the mobility component of disability living allowance self-employment. Under a new funding model in which for adults in residential care and children in residential prime providers work closely with their subcontractors, special schools. [25631] individuals get early, quality support that helps them progress at work and, where it is appropriate for the Maria Miller: The spending review announced that individual, helps them move into sustainable long-term the mobility component of disability living allowance employment. would be removed from adults in residential care and children in residential schools. In the coalition agreement we announced “We will reform Access to Work, so disabled people can apply Proposals for disability living allowance reform will for jobs with funding already secured for any adaptations and be informed by responses to the consultation document equipment they will need”. which we will publish shortly. We are developing plans for delivering this commitment We will be making clearer as we move towards the and further details will be announced in due course. Bill exactly how the measure to cease paying mobility component of DLA to people in care homes will affect Future Jobs Fund: Third Sector particular groups. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment Schemes: Disability Work and Pensions what the name is of each third sector organisation funded directly by his Department Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to implement the future jobs fund; and for how many and Pensions what steps he is taking to increase the young people each provided a placement. [23043] level of access to employment opportunities of disabled people who are able and willing to work. [19584] Chris Grayling: The table containing details of the third sector organisations which bid to the fund as lead Maria Miller: The Department is committed to increasing accountable bodies will be placed in the Library. These access to employment opportunities for disabled people organisations were awarded future jobs fund funding. and others who experience complex barriers to employment, The future jobs fund was designed to provide temporary and to working closely with organisations which will jobs for 18 to 24-year-olds and others, including older help achieve this aim. people, living in disadvantaged areas. Bidders to the To this end, we will introduce the Work Programme fund were required to state how many of the jobs they which will be an integrated package of support providing would deliver were for 18 to 24-year-olds and how many personalised help to a broad range of individuals, including would be for disadvantaged areas. Where this split is those who may previously have been receiving incapacity known it is reflected in the table. benefits for many years. We will offer providers differentiated levels of payment for supporting harder customers into Homelessness work to ensure it is worthwhile for providers to provide them with support. We aim to have the Work Programme Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in place nationally by the summer of 2011. and Pensions if he will make it his policy to publish Alongside the Work Programme, we will offer flexible each impact assessment undertaken by his Department support through Jobcentre Plus. The support Jobcentre on the effect on (a) homelessness, (b) persons living in Plus delivers to customers across all working age benefits supported accommodation and (c) other vulnerable will allow more flexibility to Jobcentre Plus managers groups of the public expenditure announcements in the and advisers to judge which interventions will help June 2010 Budget and the spending review 2010 prior to individual customers most cost effectively and meet the introduction of any relevant legislative proposals. local need. [21323] 357W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 358W

Steve Webb: In line with the Department’s commitment Supplier Spend (£) to transparency, all measures in relation to the Budget and spending review have and will be equality impact Total 1,689,120 assessed. Where the detail of policies is still being developed, we plan to publish at the same time as the Of the £35,235 spent since 1 May 2010, £29,990 Welfare Reform Bill or to accompany the Uprating was for analysis of the Wealth and Assets Survey and Order. Some policies, such as the DLA Reform will be was committed to prior to the general election, £5,125 subject to consultation therefore the equality impact was paid to the IFS to validate the annual poverty assessment would be published at a later date. statistics (this is a long standing commitment which The equality impacts of Budget changes have been uses the vast amount of expertise the IFS has in analysing published where detail of the policy has been finalised these datasets) and £120 was for miscellaneous costs. and can be found through this link: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/impact%2Dassessments/ Public Sector: Pay equality%2Dimpact%2Dassessments/ we will publish, on the spending review web oage, a Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for fuller update on the current position for all relevant Work and Pensions how many part-time workers who policies shortly. earn £20,000 or more pro rata annually will be affected Housing Benefit: Down’s Syndrome by the public sector pay freeze; and how many of these part-time workers are women. [14383] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions Pensions if he will make an assessment of the effects of (DWP) has 18,349 part-time workers earning £20,000 the proposed changes in the provision of housing benefit or more (pro rata) of whom 16,417 are female. for people who have been on jobseeker’s allowance for 12 months or more on people with Down’s syndrome; However the pay freeze covers employees who earn and if he will make a statement. [23077] above £21,000. DWP has 16,184 employees who work part-time and earn more than £21,000 per annum (pro Steve Webb: The detailed design of the measure is rata) and are therefore affected by the pay freeze. 14,424 being developed and we are carefully considering the of these employees are female. Of all part-time employees, impact on all benefit customers, including those people 42% of women and 43% of men working part time are claiming jobseeker’s allowance who have a degree of affected by the pay freeze. disability. While the measure will not apply to people who are Remploy not required to seek work, we recognise the specific difficulties that some people face in getting work, and Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jobcentre Plus has an integrated system in place to and Pensions by what date he plans to determine the address these diverse needs. future of Remploy. [24158] We will publish an equality impact assessment to accompany the Welfare Reform Bill. Maria Miller: I refer the hon. Member to the written answer I gave the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Institute for Fiscal Studies Lucas) on 26 October 2010, Official Report, column 195W. Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much his Department spent Social Security Benefits: Disability on services provided by the Institute for Fiscal Studies in each of the last 10 years. [23388] Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: The amount spent by DWP on services Work and Pensions what assessment his Department from the Institute of Fiscal Studies for eight of the last has made of the effect on disabled people of the proposed 10 years is shown in the following table. Data for rise in the state pension age; what estimate he has made 2001-02 and 2002-03 are not centrally available and of the number of disabled people who will be affected; would be obtainable only at a disproportionate cost. and if he will make a statement. [23344] The 2010-11 value is for the period 1 April to 31 October 2010. Maria Miller: The Government’s full response to the review of State Pension age, “A sustainable State Pension: Supplier Spend (£) when the State Pension age will increase to 66” was published on 3 November. This contains an equality Institute For Fiscal Studies 2010-11 50,280 impact assessment including a disability impact. 2009-10 237,800 2008-09 264,957 Vacancies: North West and Flintshire 2007-08 189,972 2006-07 332,062 Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 328,228 Work and Pensions how many job vacancies were advertised 2004-05 197,279 in jobcentres in (a) City of Chester constituency, (b) 2003-04 £88,542 Cheshire, (c) Flintshire and (d) the North West in September 2010. [17061] 359W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 360W

Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus partly and wholly owned by the Treasury are set out in is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, the Treasury’s Resource Accounts for 2008-09 (HC611) Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. and for 2009-10 (HC261). Member with the information requested. The interest rate on HM Treasury’s loan to Northern Letter from Darra Singh: Rock (Asset Management) plc (NRAM) is currently The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question charged at Bank Base Rate plus 25 basis points. The asking how many job vacancies were advertised in jobcentres in outstanding loan as at 30 June 2010 was £22.5 billion. (a) City of Chester constituency (b) Cheshire (c) Flintshire and NRAM has also been provided with a working capital (d) the North West in September 2010. This is something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as the Chief facility of up to £2.5 billion by HM Treasury which is Executive of Jobcentre Plus. currently undrawn. Any drawdown on this is subject to The data requested for September is not available. The Jobcentre a one off utilisation fee of 50 basis points on the vacancy data for September 2010 has been withdrawn; this is due amount drawn. NRAM pays HM Treasury a monthly to problems identified with the source data, which we are currently fee of £1 million for HM Treasury’s guarantee of its investigating. wholesale liabilities. I am able to provide the data for August and October 2010 HMT has removed its retail and wholesale guarantees shown in the following table. in place for Northern Rock plc, with the exception of Number of advertised vacancies in the areas shown certain fixed term retail and wholesale balances which August 2010 live October 2010 live are guaranteed to maturity. Northern Rock plc pays a Area unfilled vacancies unfilled vacancies fee of 50 basis points on guaranteed retail deposit balances, and a fee of 200 basis points on guaranteed City of Chester 796 1,018 wholesale balances. Cheshire 4,053 4,747 Flintshire 922 963 The interest rate on the working capital facility provided North West 32,778 40,293 by HM Treasury to Bradford and Bingley plc (B&B) is Source: currently charged at Bank Base Rate plus 150 basis Jobcentre Plus Labour Market System 19 November 2010 points. As at 30 June 2010 B&B had drawn £8.5 billion on the working capital facility. In respect of the guarantees Veterinary Services: Regulation provided by HM Treasury, B&B pays a fee of between 120 basis points and 300 basis points on guaranteed Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for wholesale balances depending upon the class of liability. Work and Pensions what regulations govern the work The interest rate on HM Treasury’s loan to the Financial of veterinary surgeons in (a) pig and poultry abattoirs Services Compensation Scheme is charged at 12 month and (b) meat-cutting plants. [22458] LIBOR plus 30 basis points. This rate is subject to re-negotiation from March 2012. Anne Milton: I have been asked to reply. The Food Standards Agency (FSA) is responsible for official controls in all approved fresh meat establishments Child Benefit: Scotland in Great Britain to verify that food business operators comply with hygiene and other legislation including Margaret Curran: To ask the Chancellor of the animal welfare. Approved fresh meat establishments Exchequer whether he has made a recent estimate of include abattoirs; cutting plants; game handling the number of households with a higher rate taxpayer establishments; meat preparations and meat products in (a) Scotland, (b) Glasgow and (c) Glasgow East establishments; and co-located cold stores. constituency which receive child benefit. [16980] Veterinary surgeons working in approved fresh meat establishments are employed either directly or indirectly, Mr Gauke [holding answer 13 October 2010]: In as contract staff, by the FSA. 2010-11, the number of households with a higher rate The work which these veterinary surgeons carry out taxpayer in Scotland which receive child benefit is 100,000. in fresh meat establishments is governed by EC Regulation Information on household income for child benefit 854/2004 and the United Kingdom Veterinary Surgeons claimants is not available at parliamentary constituency Act 1966. level.

Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 15 November 2010, Official TREASURY Report, column 614W, on child benefit in Scotland, what the evidential basis is for his estimate that 120,000 Banks: Finance households will be affected by the withdrawal of child benefit in 2013. [25757] Mr Donaldson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what rate of interest is charged on loans and guarantees Mr Gauke: The information provided in the answer made from the Exchequer to financial institutions in of 15 November 2010, Official Report, column 614W, public ownership. [22828] on child benefit in Scotland is based on data from the Family Resources Survey (FRS) from 2007-08. These Mr Hoban [holding answer 9 November 2010]: Details data are used in the Inter-Governmental Tax and Benefit of the loans and guarantees provided by HM Treasury Model (IGoTM) to model household tax and benefit for financial stability purposes to financial institutions levels, projected to 2013. 361W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 362W

Child Tax Credit (3) which services of his Department have been the subject of a contract awarded in a tender process in Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer which Post Office Ltd submitted a bid since 1997-98. what assessment he has made of the effect of child tax [25026] credit on work incentives; and if he will make a statement. [25666] Justine Greening: The total value of payments made by the Treasury each year to the Royal Mail and the Justine Greening: It is the impact of the tax and Post Office are: benefit system as a whole that is important for work incentives, rather than particular aspects of the system £ in isolation, such as child tax credit. Spend (inc. VAT) in financial year Royal Mail Post Office Ltd The new universal credit, introduced over two Parliaments, will replace the current complex system of 2002-03 4,556.89 — means-tested working-age benefits with a simple streamlined 2003-04 2,716.55 — payment. The universal credit will improve financial 2004-05 1,234.57 — work incentives by ensuring that support is reduced at a 2005-06 1,556.47 120,437.50 consistent and managed rate as people return to work 2006-07 8,275.30 — and increase their working hours and earnings. 2007-08 13,049.04 — 2008-09 15,650.37 — Company Accounts 2009-10 16,364.15 — Note: Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Information prior to 2002-03 is not available due to the introduction what discussions he has had with the Organisation for of a new accounting system at that time. Economic Cooperation and Development on country- The Royal Mail provides external mail services to by-country reporting of company profits and tax HM Treasury. In 2005 the Post Office provided services liabilities. [25623] in support of a digital media and leaflet campaign. Records of tenders, contracts and services from the Mr Gauke: The OECD informal taskforce on tax and Post Office Ltd from 1997-98 are not held centrally development is examining the merits of country-by-country could be provided only at disproportionate cost. reporting by multinational enterprises, and Ministers are monitoring the progress of this work closely. Dunfermline Building Society: KPMG Corporation Tax: Financial Services Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what payments have been made to KPMG for work as what estimate he has made of the total corporation tax administrators for those elements of the Dunfermline receipts attributable to the banking, finance and Building Society business not transferred to Nationwide. insurance sector in each year from 1990 to 2010; and if [25662] he will make a statement. [25670] Mr Hoban: KPMG, the administrators of Dunfermline Mr Gauke: Historical figures for corporation tax Building Society, publish six-monthly progress reports. receipts since 2000-01 paid by the financial sector and These reports include full details of costs charged by several other broadly-defined business sectors are regularly KPMG to Dunfermline. The third progress report was updated and published in Table 11.1, on the HMRC sent to all creditors on 26 August 2010. The progress National Statistics website. The latest update is available reports are available from the KPMG website: here: http://rd.kpmg.co.uk/WhatWeDo/18300.htm http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/table11_1.pdf Between 30 March 2009 and 30 July 2010 the remuneration Equivalent information for years prior to 2000-01 is fee paid to KPMG was £13.4 million for their work as not available. Historical figures for annual corporation administrators. tax receipts were published in Table 1.2 on the HMRC National Statistics website (available here): Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax receipts/1_2_v2_dec05.pdf what instructions were given to KPMG as administrators on the sale of those elements of the Dunfermline Building Departmental Postal Services Society business not transferred to Nationwide. [25663]

Brandon Lewis: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Hoban: On the application of the Bank of England, (1) what the monetary value was of contracts between KPMG were appointed as the building society special his Department and (a) Post Office Ltd and (b) Royal administrators of Dunfermline Building Society (DBS) Mail in (i) 1997-98 and (ii) each year since 2004-05; by virtue of an order of the Court of Session dated [25028] 30 March 2009. (2) what services provided by his Department were The objectives of KPMG, are set out in the Banking the subject of a contract with Post Office Ltd in Act 2009 sections 137 to 140 as applied by the order 1997-98 and have subsequently become the subject of a made under section 158 of the Act (S.I. 2009/805). contract with another supplier; and what the monetary The objectives are to provide support to the acquirer value was of each such contract in (a) 1997-98 and (b) of assets and liabilities by virtue of an exercise of the the latest period for which figures are available; [25027] resolution powers, and, once that objective has been 363W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 364W fulfilled, to achieve a better result for the building 4(1 )(g) of Council Decision 2007/436/EC costs the UK society’s creditors (including all holders of shares in the £286 million in 2009, £1.2 billion in 2010 and £1.98 society) as a whole. billion in 2011. No directions have been issued to KPMG by the Thereafter, with the abatement disapplication fully Treasury. phased in, the cost to the UK is expected to be around £2 billion per annum. Economic Growth This is being phased in as follows: 20% in 2009; Hywel Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 70% in 2010; what estimate he has made of the level of economic 100% from 2011. growth for each (a) region and (b) country in the UK The total additional cost of the abatement disapplication for each year of the comprehensive spending review is capped in the period 2007-13 to a total of 10.5 billion period. [25201] euros (expressed in 2004 prices).

Danny Alexander: The Office for Budget Responsibility Mr Nuttall: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (OBR) is responsible for producing the official economic what his Department’s most recent (a) outturn, (b) and fiscal forecasts. The OBR’s Budget forecast does estimated and (c) forecast figures are in pounds not include a sub-national forecast. sterling for the UK’s gross contribution to the EU The current forecast, published on 22 June 2010, is budget for the financial year (i) 2008-09, (ii) 2009-10, available at: (iii) 2010-11, (iv) 2011-12, (v) 2012-13 and (vi) 2013-14. http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/index.html [25700] The OBR will publish a new forecast on 29 November 2010. Justine Greening: Table 2.9 of the supplementary material to the June Budget 2010 (see page 27) provides While forecasts for economic growth are not made at the latest projections for the UK’s “Net expenditure a sub-national level, the Office for National Statistics transfers to EU institutions” to the EU budget for the (ONS) annually publishes data on GVA for the English fiscal years 2008-09 (outturn) to 2015-16 (forecasts). regions and the devolved countries. This is available at: This is the UK gross national income (GNI) contributions http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=14650 less the UK’s abatement. New projections will be provided and the next publication is expected in December 2010. by the Office of Budget Responsibility in their autumn forecast at the end of November. The following table Energy: Subsidies includes the figures presented in the latest forecast, and historical figures back to 2008-09. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Historical data on the total UK’s gross contributions what the outcomes were of his discussions with his G20 to the EU (net of the abatement) can be found in the counterparts at the recent meeting of G20 finance ministers table C.1 (page 176) of the Public Expenditure Statistical and central bank governors in Gyeongju on energy Analyses, published in July 2010. subsidy reform. [20724] The main reasons for the increasing profile of UK’s gross contributions are the increase in the size of the Justine Greening: G20 Finance Ministers and Central budget and the disapplication of the abatement to Bank Governors met on 22-23 October 2010 in Gyeongju, non-agricultural spending in the new member states. in the Republic of Korea. At this meeting they noted The EU budget for the period 2007-13 was agreed by the progress made on rationalizing and phasing out the previous Government in 2005. inefficient fossil fuel subsidies and promoting energy The Government are very concerned about the UK’s market transparency and stability. They agreed to monitor growing contributions to the EU budget and is working and assess progress towards this commitment at the hard to reduce them. In particular, in the negotiation of Seoul Summit. the 2011 EU budget, the Government have not reached an agreement with the European Parliament given their EU Budget wider demands beyond the 2011 EU budget. The Government will continue to engage constructively in Mr Nuttall: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer further negotiations aimed at securing taxpayers a fair what forecast in pounds sterling he has made of the UK outcome for the 2011 EU budget. contribution to the EU budget in the period 2007-2013 In addition, at the October meeting of the European that will result specifically from the application of Article Council, the UK secured an unprecedented and important 4(1)(g) of Council Decision 2007/436/EC, Euratom to new principle. From now on the EU budget will reflect the system of European Communities’ own resources. the spending cuts being made by national governments, [25699] including in the crucial 2014-20 EU spending round. Net expenditure transfers to EU institutions1 Justine Greening: The abatement disapplication was agreed by the previous Government in 2005, and means £ billion the UK no longer receives an EU budget rebate on 2008-09 3.1 non-agriculture spending in member states that joined 2009-10 6.4 the EU after 2004. 2010-11 8.3 According to European Commission figures, the 2011-12 8.3 disapplication of the UK abatement referred to in article 2012-13 8.3 365W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 366W

Net expenditure transfers to EU institutions1 recorded of false declarations by importers in respect of £ billion the preferential origin of goods (a) in total and (b) under the EU-Israel Trade Agreement in each of the 2013-14 9.3 last five years. [25637] 2014-15 10.3 2015-16 8.7 Mr Gauke: The number of cases involving false 1 “Net expenditure transfers to EU institutions” is the UK GNI declarations by importers in respect of preferential contribution less the UK’s abatement. origin are as follows: Mr Nuttall: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his Department’s most recent (a) outturn, (b) Imports under the Imports from all EU-Israel estimated and (c) forecast figures are in pounds countries Agreement sterling for the UK’s net contribution to the EU budget for the financial year (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11, (iii) 2006 86 24 2011-12, (iv) 2012-13 and (v) 2013-14. [25702] 2007 98 7 2008 81 8 Justine Greening: Table 2.9 of the supplementary 2009 65 12 material to the June Budget 2010 (see p. 27) provides the 2010 46 114 latest projections for the UK’s net contribution to the 1 To date. EU budget for the fiscal years 2008-09 (outturn) to Each case may involve several import declarations. I 2015-16 (forecasts). New projections will be provided am told by HMRC that because country information is by the Office of Budget Responsibility in their autumn maintained on a case by case basis, it would be an forecast at the end of November. The following table onerous task to extract and collate the information in include the figures presented in the latest forecast, and respect of the number of incorrect origin declarations historical figures back to 2009-10. for all countries. However, it is able to provide figures The main reasons for the increasing profile of UK’s for the number of incorrect origin declarations for net contributions are the increase in the size of the goods imported under the EU-Israel Agreement. budget and the disapplication of the abatement to non-agricultural spending in the new member states. Number The EU budget for the period 2007-13 was agreed by 2006 127 the previous Government in 2005. 2007 214 The Government are very concerned about the UK’s 2008 20 growing contributions to the EU budget and is working 2009 26 hard to reduce them. In particular, in the negotiation of 2010 147 the 2011 EU budget, the Government have not reached 1 To date. an agreement with the European Parliament given their wider demands beyond the 2011 EU budget. The Mr Slaughter: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Government will continue to engage constructively in pursuant to the answer of 18 October 2010, Official further negotiations aimed at securing taxpayers a fair Report, columns 548-9W, on EU external trade: Israel, outcome for the 2011 EU budget. whether the accompanying documentation indicates Israel In addition, at the October meeting of the European as the place of origin; and whether he has received a Council, the UK secured an unprecedented and important response from the Israeli authorities. [25638] new principle. From now on the EU budget will reflect the spending cuts being made by national governments, Mr Gauke: The documentation accompanying the including in the crucial 2014-20 EU spending round. three consignments of products under Commodity Code 3401 3000 referred to in the previous answer, in each Net payments to EU Net contribution to case showed Israel as the place of origin. HMRC confirm institutions1 EU budget2 that a response is still awaited from the Israeli authorities. 2009-10 3.8 4.7 2010-11 6.8 7.7 European Financial Stability Mechanism 2011-12 6.6 7.6 2012-13 6.6 7.6 Mr Cash: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2013-14 7.6 8.6 what recent representations he has received on the 2014-15 8.6 9.5 implementation of the regulation governing the procedure 2015-16 7.3 8.2 for the European Financial Stability Mechanism; and if [25687] 1 “Net payments to EU institutions” is as below, less that part of the he will make a statement. UK’s contribution that is attributed to the external aid programme. 2 “Net contribution to EU budget” is the gross national income, VAT Mr Hoban [holding answer 22 November 2010]: The and traditional own resources contributions (gross contribution) less regulation governing the European Financial Stability the UK’s abatement, less public receipts. Mechanism is based on article 122(2) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. The regulation EU External Trade: Israel was immediately binding on all member states the day after its publication in the Official Journal of the European Mr Slaughter: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Union on 12 May. It is activated by the Council acting pursuant to the answer of 18 October 2010, Official by Qualified Majority Voting on a proposal from the Report, column 549-50W, on EU external trade: Israel, Commission. The Commission has not yet made a how many incidents HM Revenue and Customs has formal proposal. 367W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 368W

Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks Monetary Policy

Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Steve Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) when he plans to publish the outcomes of his how much debt interest has been paid on Government Department’s review of alcohol taxation and pricing; securities held by the Bank of England and its [25454] subsidiaries in the last 12 months. [16314] (2) when his Department plans to publish the responses received to its review of alcohol taxation and Mr Hoban: In the 12 months to end September 2010, pricing. [25455] the Bank of England and its subsidiaries have received the following interest on holdings of UK Government Justine Greening: The Treasury is considering all debt securities: responses submitted to the review of alcohol taxation, and will report shortly. £ million Banking Department 187 Financial Inclusion Fund Issue Department 282 Bank of England Asset Purchase 8,527 Facility Fund Ltd Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Total 8,996 what (a) initiatives and (b) projects the Financial Inclusion Fund has funded in each of the last five years; and if he will make a statement. [20338] Pensions: Annuities Mr Hoban [holding answer 1 November 2010]: Since 2005 the Financial Inclusion Fund has supported a Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer number of Government projects and initiatives including when he plans to introduce transitional measures for the following: those yet to secure a retirement income who will reach A face-to-face money advice project delivered by the Department 75 years before his Department removes the requirement for Business Innovation and Skills; to purchase a pension annuity. [13900] A debt advice project in prison locations across England and Wales, delivered by the National Offender Management Service; Mr Hoban: The June Budget announced the intention A growth fund for credit unions and community development to end the existing rules that create an effective obligation finance institutions, delivered by the Department for Work and to purchase an annuity by age 75 from April 2011, Pensions; including transitional arrangements for those yet to A financial inclusion champions initiative, and a public campaign, secure an income who will reach age 75 in the meantime. ‘now let’s talk money’, delivered by the Department for Work These ensure that those up to the age of 77 will not be and Pensions; required to annuitise their pension savings while the A project to tackle illegal money lending, delivered by the changes to the legislation are put in place. Department for Business Innovation and Skills; These transitional arrangements were included in the A ‘Save Xmas’ campaign, delivered by the Office of Fair Finance Bill introduced after the emergency Budget Trading; which received Royal Assent on 27 July 2010. The The Financial Inclusion Taskforce. relevant parts of the legislation setting out the transitional rules are section 6 and schedule 3 to the Finance (No. 2) Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands Act 2010. The transitional measures are also explained in Budget Note 22, which can be found on the HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) website at: Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his most recent estimate is of the (a) gross and http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2010/bn22.htm (b) net effect on tax revenues of the introduction of the 50 per cent. tax band; what behavioural assumptions underlie these estimates; and if he will make a statement. Public Expenditure [25676] Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Gauke: The estimated revenue to be raised from what the spending of each Department in 2008-09 the 50% rate of income tax on incomes over £150,000 prices was in (a) 1996-97, (b) 2009-10, (c) 2008-09; was £1.3 billion in 2010-11, £3.1 billion in 2011-12, and and if he will make a statement. [25149] £2.7 billion in 2012-13. These estimates are as shown in the March Budget 2010 report, table A11 on page 140, Danny Alexander: Spend for 2009-10 and 2008-09 are available at: sourced directly from PESA, July 2010, Cm 7890. Due http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hm- to changes in the budgeting framework and machinery treasury.gov.uk/d/budget2010_annexa.pdf of Government the Treasury is unable to provide figures The 50% tax rate costings include an estimated which are fully consistent back to 1996-97. Treasury behavioural response to allow for changes in work only maintains the last five years on a consistent basis effort, tax planning, avoidance, evasion or migration (i.e. updated to reflect the changes highlighted above). motivated by the tax increase. These factors reduce the The data for 1996-97 is sourced from PESA 1999-2000, potential static yield from the measures by around Cm 4201. two-thirds. The data provided are, therefore, not fully comparable. 369W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 370W

PESA 1999-2000, 2008-09 prices PESA 2010, 2008-09 prices 1996-97 outturn 2009-10 estimated 2008-09 outturn outturn DEL Wales 14,382 15,383 Education and Employment 18,811 Northern Ireland 15,470 16,530 Health 45,344 Executive DETR - Main programme 12,981 Northern Ireland 1,582 1,444 DETR - Local Government and 42,053 Office Regional Policy Chancellor’s 161,576 79,449 Home Office 8,642 Departments Legal Departments 3,527 Cabinet Office 9,306 9,608 Defence 28,713 Independent Bodies 798 841 Foreign and Commonwealth 1,414 Allowance for — -2,557 Office Shortfall International Development 2,814 Total departmental 705,125 661,642 Trade and Industry 4,471 spending Agriculture, Fisheries and Food 2,848 Culture, Media and Sport 1,288 Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services Social Security (administration) 4,719 Scotland 17,329 Wales 8,693 Simon Hughes: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Northern Ireland 7,192 how many complaints HM Revenue and Customs has received about the availability of its VAT helpline in the Chancellor’s Departments 3,875 latest period for which figures are available. [25610] Cabinet Office 1,552 AME Mr Gauke: HMRC contact centres received eight Social Security benefits 120,513 complaints in October 2010 from customers who were Housing Revenue Account 5,618 unable to get through to its VAT and Excise helplines. Subsidies Common Agricultural Policy 3,932 Tax Yields: Savings Exports Credits Guarantee 91 Department Net public service pensions 6,714 Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer National Lottery 489 what estimate he has made of the revenue attributable Total departmental spending 353,624 to tax on savings income in each year from 1990 to 2010; and if he will make a statement. [25672] PESA 2010, 2008-09 prices 2009-10 estimated Mr Hoban: Figures for the revenue arising from the 2008-09 outturn outturn taxation of savings income from 1997-98 to 20010-11 Total spending by are shown in the following table. Figures for the years departmental group: before 1997 are not available. Education 62,999 66,478 Health 108,674 117,712 Income tax from savings (£ million) Transport 13,260 14,399 CLG Communities 12,307 13,688 1997-98 4,140 CLG Local 25,433 25,585 1998-99 5,490 Government 1999-2000 4,230 Business, 22,795 26,576 2000-01 3,480 Innovation and Skills 2001-02 3,420 Home Office 10,560 10,899 2002-03 2,770 Justice 10,166 10,670 2003-04 2,780 Law Officers’ 731 721 2004-05 3,760 Departments 2005-06 4,640 Defence 40,488 44,129 2006-07 5,120 Foreign and 2,145 2,265 2007-08 7,080 Commonwealth 2008-09 5,360 Office 2009-10 1,660 International 5,830 6,870 2010-11 1,850 Development Energy and Climate 4,079 6,702 Change Taxation: Graduates Environment, Food 2,864 2,971 and Rural Affairs Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the Culture, Media and 6,733 6,970 Sport Exchequer if he will make an estimate of the amount of Work and Pensions 143,356 153,756 net revenue to the Exchequer which would be raised by Scotland 29,590 30,553 a graduate tax of 2 per cent. of graduates’ income for 20 years. [15349] 371W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 372W

Mr Gauke: Making an accurate estimate of the amount their own employment base and since public data which of yield from a graduate tax of 2% of a graduate’s they produce can be used by other companies to produce income over 20 years is dependent on a variety of value-added data products which can help stimulate criteria and behavioural impacts. We are therefore unable growth. to provide an estimate of the yield as requested. To do so would be misleading on the basis of the evidence we Working Tax Credit have available at the present time. Taxation: Inspections Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effect on (a) work incentives, (b) levels of employment and (c) public Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer expenditure of raising the minimum hour requirement (1) how many inspections HM Revenue and Customs for working tax credit from 16 hours per week to and its predecessors have carried out in respect of small 30 hours per week; and if he will make a statement. and medium-sized enterprises in each year since 2000; [25667] [20519] (2) how much revenue accrued to the Exchequer as a Justine Greening: People who work less than 30 hours result of inspections of the tax affairs of small and are not generally entitled to working tax credit. However, medium-sized enterprises in each year since 2000; the qualifying requirement is lower for some groups [20520] because they face greater barriers to working longer (3) what estimate he has made of the cost to HM hours. For single adults with a child, or those with a Revenue and Customs and its predecessor of inspections disability, the qualifying requirement is 16 hours. of small and medium-sized enterprises in each year The new universal credit, introduced over two since 2000; [20521] Parliaments, will replace the current complex system of (4) what criteria HM Revenue and Customs takes means-tested working-age benefits with a simple streamlined into account when determining whether to investigate payment. The universal credit will improve financial the tax affairs of a small or medium-sized enterprise. work incentives by ensuring that support is reduced at a [20851] consistent and managed rate as people return to work and increase their working hours and earnings. Mr Gauke: We are not able to provide the information requested without incurring disproportionate cost. However, we are able to provide information since the creation of our small and medium enterprise (SME) customer group CABINET OFFICE in Local Compliance. The criteria of this customer group will not exactly match those of the small and Employment: Pendle medium-sized enterprises asked about because SME’s are managed by many areas of HMRC such as Charities, Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Assets and Residence (CAR). Office what proportion of the working population in Pendle constituency is employed in the (a) public and 2007-08 2008-09 (b) private sector. [25904] Total settled 210,000 220,000 interventions Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the (number) responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Total revenue 1.5 2.0 asked the authority to reply. accrued (£ billion) Letter from Stephen Penneck: Due to the nature of the way these data are collated As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking we are not able to break down the cost to HMRC of what proportion of the working population in Pendle constituency small and medium-sized enterprise interventions. is employed in the (a) public and (b) private sector. (25904) HMRC determines to investigate cases on the basis Public sector employment statistics for local areas can be of an identified risk or as part of our ongoing random calculated from the Annual Population Survey (APS). According inquiry programme. HMRC uses a range of information to APS figures, in the 12 month period April 2009 to March 2010, sources and risk identification systems to identify SME’s 78 per cent of the working population of Pendle constituency was who potentially may not have declared the correct amount employed by the private sector with the remaining 22 per cent of tax. employed in the public sector. As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject Trading Funds to a margin of uncertainty. National and local area estimates for many labour market John Thurso: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant whether he has made an assessment of the effects on the count are available on the NOMIS website at: economy of the commercial activities of government http://www.nomisweb.co.uk trading funds. [25282] Government Departments: Devolution Danny Alexander: Government have not undertaken a specific assessment on the effects on the economy of Fiona Bruce: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the commercial activities of their trading funds. However, Office what plans he has for a review of the role of these bodies make an important contribution to the devolution champions in Government Departments. economy, at the regional and national level, both through [25728] 373W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 374W

Mr Maude: The Government are committed to taking hours per week and (d) more than 35 hours per week forward the devolution settlements in Scotland, Wales on average in each year from 1990 to 2010. [25677] and Northern Ireland as a key part of its political reform agenda. Senior leadership, including devolution Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the champions, within UK Government Departments have responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have an important role to play in maximising departmental asked the authority to reply. capacity to deal with the issues raised by the devolution Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2010: settlements. This is part of a wider approach to enhancing As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I the capacity of the UK Government to deal with devolution have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking issues. We keep the approach under review to ensure it how many people worked a) less than 16 hours per week, 2) continues to meet this objective. exactly 16 hours per week, c) more than 30 hours per week and d) more than 35 hours per week on average in each year from 1990 to Ombudsman 2010 (25677). The table provided shows Labour Force Survey (LFS) estimates Gavin Shuker: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet for quarter three of each year from 1992 to 2010. Estimates prior to 1992 are not available. Office if he will bring forward proposals to regulate the use of the word ombudsman to limit its use to dispute- Usual weekly hours of work in the UK1, Quarter 3 each year, 1992 to 2010 resolving bodies and other official organisations. [25606] Thousand Mr Maude: Cabinet Office guidance “Ombudsman Less than Exactly 16 More than More than 16 hours hours per 30 hours 35 hours Schemes—Guidance for Departments” provides advice per week week per week per week to Departments when setting up Ombudsman schemes or similar complaint-handling schemes, including the 1992 2,432 289 18,881 17,230 use of the term ‘Ombudsman’. 1993 2,417 299 18,693 17,094 A copy of the guidance has been placed in the 1994 2,434 313 18,787 17,217 Library of the House and can also be accessed on the 1995 2,542 331 19,471 17,849 Cabinet Office website at: 1996 2,533 375 19,452 17,822 http://download.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/ombudsman/ 1997 2,516 377 19,751 18,074 ombudsman-schemes-guidance.pdf 1998 2,459 411 19,970 18,277 1999 2,478 432 20,151 18,435 Unemployment: Older People 2000 2,435 428 20,240 18,394 2001 2,260 468 20,424 18,596 Mr Laws: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office 2002 2,411 524 20,489 18,541 how many and what proportion of people between the 2003 2,411 524 20,489 18,541 ages of (a) 50 and 55, (b) 55 and 60 and (c) 60 and 65 2004 2,312 537 20,591 18,574 are not in employment; and if he will make a 2005 2,285 573 20,982 18,894 statement. [25668] 2006 2,319 581 20,978 18,874 2007 2,270 596 21,161 19,011 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 2008 2,270 667 21,242 19,100 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have 2009 2,313 700 20,469 18,379 asked the authority to reply. 2010 2,388 770 20,406 18,244 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2010: 1 Total usual weekly hours worked by people aged 16 and over in main As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I job including paid and unpaid overtime. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Source: Labour Force Survey how many and what proportion of people between the ages of a) 50 and 55 b) 55 and 60 and c) 60 and 65 are not in employment (25668). The table provided shows Labour Force Survey (LFS) estimates for individuals not in employment the UK. EDUCATION Table 1: Number and proportion of people of who are not employed in the UK Academies Quarter three 2010 Not seasonally adjusted Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Age Thousand Percentage1 Education how many schools in (a) Don Valley constituency, (b) Doncaster local education authority 50 to 54 823 20.7 area and (c) England had registered an interest in 55 to 59 1,026 28.9 becoming an academy school on the latest date for 60 to 64 2,084 56.0 which figures are available. [11642] 1 Percentage of relevant age band population. Source: Labour Force Survey Mr Gibb: As at 19 November 2010, two schools in the Don Valley constituency, seven schools within Doncaster Working Hours local education authority and 1,936 schools in England had registered an interest in becoming an academy. Mr Laws: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office A list of all outstanding and non-outstanding schools how many people worked (a) less than 16 hours per that have registered an interest in converting to academy week, (b) exactly 16 hours per week, (c) more than 30 status was published on the Department’s website at: 375W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 376W

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ (Special Educational Needs and Disability). In practice typesofschools/academies/a0061400/schools-registering- this means that children in academies already had very interest-or-submitting-an-application similar rights and protections as children in maintained on 25 June 2010. schools. Where a child has a statement of SEN, the local Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for authority retains both the funding for the appropriate Education which schools have been informed their provision, and the responsibility for ensuring that it is application for academy status in September 2010 (a) provided. As a result of the Academies Act, any new has been granted and (b) has not been granted. [12553] academy and any existing academy which moves to the new Funding Agreement (the contract between the Mr Gibb [holding answer 6 September 2010]: The list Academy Trust and the Secretary of State) is under of schools that have applied to convert to an academy exactly the same duties as maintained schools in relation has been published on our website at: to children with SEN. www.education.gov.uk/academies In relation to admissions, academies must comply The list of schools that opened in September has also with the School Admissions Code and School Admission been published on our website. Ministers are still considering Appeals Code in the same way as maintained schools. applications from schools and are keen to work with This protects the interests of hard to place pupils and schools to convert when they feel ready to do so. pupils with a statement of SEN. All maintained schools and academies must participate in their local authority’s Academies: Kent Fair Access Protocol in order to ensure that unplaced children, especially the most vulnerable, are offered a Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Education place at a suitable school in their home local authority (1) how many enquiries about Academy status he has as quickly as possible. received from schools in Maidstone and the Weald constituency; [21484] Building Schools for the Future Programme (2) how many Academy schools he expects to open in Maidstone and the Weald constituency in (a) 2010 Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and (b) 2011. [21485] what plans he has for construction under the Building Schools for the Future programme in Bolton. [3580] Mr Gibb: No academies are due to open in Maidstone and the Weald in 2010. However, the St Augustine’s Mr Gibb: Following the Secretary of State’s Academy will open in September 2011, replacing the announcement on 5 July and 6 August 2010, the position Astor of Hever Community School. for the Building School for the Future programme in 10 schools in the Maidstone and Weald constituency Bolton is as follows: have expressed an interest in converting to academy status, of which two are judged to be outstanding by Position Ofsted. Neither of those two schools has yet applied to convert. Bolton St Catherine’s Academy Unaffected Essa Academy Unaffected The latest list of primary and secondary schools Kearsley Academy Academy—decision on any capital within England that have expressed an interest in academy allocation to be taken in the next status is available at: few months http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ Bolton Muslim Girls’ School Stopped typesofschools/academies/a0061400/schools-registering- Ladybridge High School Stopped interest-or-submitting-an-application Little Lever Specialist Language Stopped College Academies: Special Educational Needs Rumworth Special School Stopped Sharples School Stopped Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Smithills Stopped Education what mechanisms exist to safeguard the Westhoughton High Stopped interests of (a) hard to place children, (b) children with special educational needs and (c) other children The decision to end the wasteful and bureaucratic with specific needs educated in academy schools; and BSF programme does not mean the end of the capital what mechanisms there are to safeguard the interests of investment in schools. Future capital spending will be the parents of such children. [7675] prioritised on the basis of the outcome of the Capital Review by Sebastian James, due to report by the end of Mr Gibb: Before the Academies Act, academies were the calendar year. already required to use their best endeavours to meet any special needs of pupils, have regard to the Special Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Needs (SEN) code of practice, have an SEN Education if he will estimate the costs incurred by (a) policy and appoint a suitable person to co-ordinate the London Borough of Camden, (b) the London SEN provision. Borough of Brent, (c) Hampstead School, (d) Jack Where an academy fails to meet its SEN obligations, Taylor’s School, (e) Royal Free Children’s School and the Young People’s Learning Agency, on behalf of the (f) Queen’s Park Community School in respect of Secretary of State, has the role of ensuring that these their preparation and presentation of bids for inclusion obligations are met. Academy parents and pupils also in the Building Schools for the Future programme. have the same rights of access to the First-tier Tribunal [11832] 377W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 378W

Mr Gibb: The cost to local authorities of reaching the Education: Autism point of entry to the Building Schools for the Future programme (i.e. reaching the Remit meeting) is not Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Education held. It is likely to be relatively low given that the only if he will take steps to ensure that children with autism requirement at this stage was the completion of a 20 receive adequate support and assistance during the page Readiness to Deliver statement, which was based transition from primary to secondary education; and if on information the local authority would normally he will make a statement. [19590] hold. The typical cost to a local authority of reaching Sarah Teather: Schools, and for children with special Outline Business Case approval once it has entered the educational needs (SEN) statements, local authorities programme is estimated at £1.67 million. have responsibilities to ensure that children with SEN, For projects that have entered in to procurement, the including children with autism, make successful transitions additional cost to progress from Outline Business Case between primary and secondary education. There is to Close of Dialogue is estimated at £1.7 million. statutory guidance on this transition in the SEN code of practice. Advice is also available from other schools and The figures stated above are on the basis of a Building local authorities, autism specialists, guidance previously Schools for the Future (BSF) Local Education Partnership published by the Department, such as ‘Supporting pupils procurement with two sample schemes. on the autism spectrum’, published as part of the The Department for Education does not hold data Inclusion Development Programme, and from the Autism on the cost to individual schools of the BSF programme. Education Trust, which the Department funds and which This will vary locally depending on the arrangements has published a Transition Toolkit. The Department is between individual local authorities and schools. aware that the transition from primary to secondary school can be particularly difficult for children with autism because of their resistance to change and will Education Maintenance Allowance monitor research which is being conducted on this issue, such as that which is being carried out currently by the Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Education NHS Trust. what estimate he has made of the number of individuals The Government aim to publish a Green Paper on who are expected to (a) have their income reduced and SEN and disability shortly. The Green Paper will set out (b) fall below the equivalised poverty threshold of 60 how the Government intend to make the SEN system per cent. of median household income as a result of better for children with SEN, including those with removal of education maintenance allowance; and what autism, and their families. estimate he has made of the average amount by which the income of affected households will change as a Free Schools result of this measure. [21918]

Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The EMA take-up data for England show Education in respect of how many independent schools that around 650,000 young people received EMA during an application to participate in the free schools the 2010/11 academic year as at 31 August 2010. programme has been approved. [22228] From 2011/12 education maintenance allowances will be replaced by an enhanced learner support fund that Mr Gibb: As of 5 November 2010, three free school will be administered by schools and colleges themselves, proposals from existing independent schools have been targeting those young people who face a real financial approved to progress to the business case and plan barrier to participation. stage. The Free School programme aims to improve Estimates of the number and proportion of children choice and drive up standards for all young people, living in poverty are published in the Households Below regardless of their background. I welcome applications Average Income (HBAI) series. HBAI uses household from independent schools that increase the diversity of income, adjusted (or ’equivalised’) for household size provision in their area and provide an opportunity to and composition, to provide a proxy for standard of bring high quality places into the state sector. living. The data are sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS)1 which collects detailed financial information Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for across a range of income streams including income Education what his policy is on the provision of support from the education maintenance allowance. There are for participation by independent schools in the free concerns as to the reliability of EMA data on the FRS schools programme. [22229] with a small number of relevant cases and amounts received being, in some instances, inconsistent with the Mr Gibb: The Free School programme aims to improve implied entitlement. Therefore estimates of the impact choice and drive up standards for all young people, of the removal of EMA on child poverty rates should regardless of their background. I welcome applications be treated with some caution. However, data from from independent schools that increase the diversity of 2008/09 suggest that the removal of EMA will have a provision in their area and provide an opportunity to negligible impact on the number of children in poverty. bring high quality places into the state sector. Any 1 Estimates from the Family Resources Survey are presented independent school becoming a free school will of rounded to the nearest 100,000 households. If the figure is less course not be able to retain any form of selection by than 50,000, this would be rounded down to zero, so instead such ability. Free schools will be all-ability schools required figures are presented as ″less than 50,000″ or ″negligible″. to abide by the admissions code. 379W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 380W

Free Schools: Academies award a time limited grant to NSN. In doing so the Department took account of the UK Public Procurement Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Regulations 2006 and the Compact Commissioning Education whether a free school may achieve academy Guidance. There have been no discussions with the status under the provisions of the Academies Act 2010. Treasury on these matters. [21616] NSN has championed the development of parent and teacher promoted schools and has been providing Mr Gibb: Free Schools will be set up as Academies advice and support to those interested in establishing under the provisions of the Academies Act 2010. new schools since 2009. It has also been developing networks among interested groups and individuals. This Free Schools: Teachers experience makes it ideally placed to fulfil the role. The Department has given similar grants in the past, such as Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Specialist Schools and Academies Trust, the Education what the (a) minimum qualification, (b) Youth Sport Trust, Holocaust Educational Trust and minimum age and (c) maximum age requirement will the National Literacy Trust. be to teach at a free school. [20146] Schools: Admissions Mr Gibb [holding answer 28 October 2010]: Innovation, diversity and flexibility are at the heart of the Free Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Schools policy. We want the dynamism that characterises Education what recent assessment he has made of the the best independent schools to drive up standards in effectiveness of the admissions policy used by (a) academies the state sector. In this spirit we will not be setting and (b) other maintained schools. [22279] overly prescriptive requirements in relation to qualifications: instead we will expect business cases to demonstrate Mr Gibb: The chief schools adjudicator has, in his how governing bodies intend to guarantee the highest annual report, published on 1 November, reported that quality of teaching and leadership in their schools. No he and his adjudicators consider that arrangements are school will be allowed to proceed unless its proposals getting better. for quality teaching are soundly based. Ensuring each Nevertheless, I have indicated my intention to review Free School’s unique educational vision is translated the admissions framework, including the Admissions into the classroom will require talented people with a Code, with a view to making it simpler, fairer and less diverse range of experience. As is the case with all bureaucratic. schools, Free Schools will be subject to employment law and the Equalities Act 2010 with regard to age requirements. Schools: Playing Fields New Schools Network Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans he has for requirements to provide outdoor Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education space at (a) free schools and (b) academy schools. (1) what assessment he has made of the merits of [21618] developing a formal funding agreement with the New Schools Network; and if he will make a statement; Mr Gibb: Academies and Free Schools are subject to [21622] the requirements of the Education (Independent School (2) whether the contract awarded to the New Schools Standards) (England) Regulations 2010. These regulations Network was advertised prior to its award; [21623] require that there should be appropriate arrangements (3) pursuant to the answer of 6 September 2010, for providing outside space for pupils to play safely. Official Report, column 357W, on the New Schools The terms of reference for the current review of Network, what discussions he has had with the Chancellor capital investment in schools, early years, colleges and of the Exchequer on the applicability of HM Treasury sixth forms include the review and reform of the guidance to his decision (a) not to develop a formal requirements on schools including regulations, design funding agreement with the New Schools Network and requirements and playing field requirements. (b) to enter into a funding agreement with the New Schools Network; [21624] Teachers: Pay (4) what advice he received from his Department in respect of the application of competitive tendering Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for procedures to the allocation of funding to the New Education what recent representations he has received Schools Network; [21625] on (a) the teacher pay structure and (b) eligibility for (5) what consideration he gave to inviting other teaching and learning responsibility payments; and if eligible organisations to bid for the funding awarded to he will make a statement. [10063] the New Schools Network. [21626] Mr Gibb: The Government want to reform the existing Mr Gibb: My officials have now finalised a grant rigid national pay and conditions rules to give schools agreement (rather than a contract) with New Schools greater freedoms to pay good teachers more. Network (NSN) to provide advice to groups wishing to The Department consulted teacher and head teacher establish free schools. The Department considered carefully unions, employers and governor representatives on changes the options for securing the requisite services from an to the School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions Document external organisation. Given the need for specialist skills (the Document) and the accompanying statutory guidance and experience to be in place quickly it was decided to for September 2010. The main changes result from 381W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 382W decisions made following a series of recent School obligations under Articles 7, 23 and 24 of the United Teachers Review Body (STRB) recommendations, including Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with changes to pay scales to implement the 2.3% pay increase, Disabilities in relation to his Department’s policy and to pay arrangements for teachers of pupils with responsibilities. [21127] special educational needs (SEN). We received nine responses to the statutory consultation on the Document which ended on 30 July, which were broadly supportive of these changes. Sarah Teather: The Department for Education is committed to the UN convention on the rights of In addition there was a request to amend the teaching persons with disabilities and to improving outcomes for and learning responsibility (TLR) provisions; and eight disabled children and young people. The UK Government requests to refer the matter of a proposed upper limit will report to the UN Committee in July 2011, setting on leadership group remuneration to the STRB. Outside out how implementation has been achieved across the consultation, seven teacher and head teacher unions Government. also wrote to the Secretary of State about the proposal to implement an upper limit on leadership group We are determined to raise the achievement and remuneration. The Secretary of State wrote to the Chair wellbeing of children with special educational needs of the STRB on 4 August to say that consideration of a (SEN) and disabled children. We are aiming to publish limit on head teacher pay will be included in a future a SEN and Disability Green Paper. The Green Paper remit. will consider how we can achieve better educational The Department also recently consulted on changes outcomes and life chances for disabled children and to the statutory guidance which accompanies the young people and those with SEN—from the early Document. Nine responses were received to the statutory years through to the transition into adult life and consultation which ended on 25 August. Although the employment. The Green Paper will seek to make radical responses were broadly supportive, three consultees made improvements to the entire SEN and disability system reference to the award of TLRs; six consultees suggested for disabled children and young people. It will explore revised wording for the statutory guidance on SEN issues such as school choice, early identification and allowances for teachers which have informed amendments assessment, funding systems and family support in order to the statutory guidance. to make life better for children with SEN and their parents. UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities We have carried out an open ‘call for views’ exercise and we intend to engage directly with disabled children, Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for young people and parents of disabled children as part Education what steps his Department is taking to implement of the Green Paper consultation process.

3MC Ministerial Corrections24 NOVEMBER 2010 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

population of Kosovo from EULEX to the Kosovan Ministerial Correction police themselves. We want more of that to happen. [Official Report, 15 November 2010, European Committee B, Wednesday 24 November 2010 c. 16.] Letter of correction from Mr David Lidington: FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE An error has been identified in the fourth sentence of Kosovo the third paragraph of the oral statement given by Mr David Lidington on 15 November 2010, European The following is an extract from an oral statement given Committee B, c. 16. during the European Committee B debate on Kosovo by the Minister for Europe, the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) on 15 November 2010. Mr Lidington: That was a step forward, as was the transfer of responsibility for policing three of the chief Mr Lidington: That was a step forward, as was the places of religious and cultural importance to the Serbian transfer of responsibility for policing three of the chief population of Kosovo from KFOR to the Kosovan places of religious and cultural importance to the Serbian police themselves.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 24 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 247 CABINET OFFICE—continued Civil Service Compensation Scheme ...... 255 Voluntary Sector Organisations ...... 250 Consultancy...... 254 Well-being...... 256 Government Contracts...... 249 Government Contracts...... 252 Public Bodies ...... 247 PRIME MINISTER ...... 256 Public Sector Mutuals...... 248 Engagements...... 256 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 24 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 37WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 40WS EU Competitiveness Council (Pre-Council Departmental Expenditure Limits ...... 40WS Statement)...... 37WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 38WS JUSTICE...... 42WS ...... 39WS Cross-Undertaking in Damages (Environmental Business Rates...... 38WS Judicial Review Cases) ...... 42WS Gypsy and Traveller Caravan Count ...... 39WS Departmental Expenditure Limits ...... 42WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 39WS Flood and Coastal Erosion Risk Management TREASURY ...... 38WS Strategy (England)...... 39WS Financial Regulation (Consultation Responses)..... 38WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 24 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 303W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Football: South Africa ...... 303W UK Trade and Investment: ICT ...... 347W UK Trade and Investment: Yorkshire ...... 348W Workers’ Educational Association: Finance...... 348W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 330W Yorkshire Forward: Assets ...... 349W Adult Education ...... 330W Adult Education: Finance...... 331W Advantage West Midlands ...... 331W CABINET OFFICE...... 372W Apprentices...... 331W Employment: Pendle ...... 372W Apprentices: Fees and Charges...... 332W Government Departments: Devolution...... 372W Astrum: Kuwait ...... 332W Ombudsman ...... 373W Balance of Trade: Republic of Ireland ...... 333W Unemployment: Older People ...... 373W Banks: Loans ...... 334W Working Hours ...... 373W Business: Government Assistance ...... 334W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 335W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 304W Departmental Regulation...... 336W Departmental Grants...... 304W Economic Growth...... 336W Departmental Lobbying...... 304W Foreign Investment in UK ...... 336W Departmental Regulation...... 304W Foreign Investment in UK: Yorkshire ...... 337W Departmental Written Questions ...... 305W Graduates: Income...... 338W Fire Services: Working Hours ...... 306W Green Investment Bank: South West...... 339W Housing: Construction...... 306W Higher Education...... 339W Peterborough City Council: Grants and Non- Higher Education: Finance ...... 340W domestic Rates...... 308W Higher Education: Mature Students ...... 340W Private Rented Housing ...... 308W Local Enterprise Partnerships: North West...... 341W Radioactive Waste...... 308W Mature Students: Loans...... 341W Mobile Phones: Prices...... 342W North East of England Development Board...... 342W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 327W Northwest Regional Development Agency: Assets. 343W Copyright: Internet ...... 327W Overseas Trade...... 343W Departmental Food...... 327W Regional Growth Fund ...... 345W Football: South Africa ...... 327W Students: Fees and Charges...... 346W Music: Finance ...... 328W UK Trade and Investment...... 347W S4C: Finance...... 328W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 316W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION—continued Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 316W Outreach Programme...... 315W Counter-terrorism: Finance ...... 317W Palace of Westminster: Gas...... 316W Defence: Procurement...... 317W Military Aircraft ...... 317W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 314W Africa: Debts ...... 314W EDUCATION...... 374W Overseas Aid...... 314W Academies...... 374W Academies: Kent...... 375W JUSTICE...... 309W Academies: Special Educational Needs...... 375W Civil Litigation...... 309W Building Schools for the Future Programme ...... 376W Departmental Food...... 309W Education: Autism ...... 378W Departmental Written Questions ...... 309W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 377W Domestic Violence ...... 310W Free Schools...... 378W Prisons: Drugs ...... 311W Free Schools: Academies...... 379W Probation Service...... 311W Free Schools: Teachers...... 379W New Schools Network...... 379W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 352W Schools: Admissions ...... 380W Departmental Written Questions ...... 352W Schools: Playing Fields ...... 380W Eames-Bradley Report...... 353W Teachers: Pay ...... 380W Historical Enquiries Team: Finance...... 353W UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities ...... 381W SCOTLAND...... 301W Daylight Saving Bill ...... 301W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 349W Post Office...... 302W Coal ...... 349W Summer Time ...... 302W Energy: Housing ...... 350W Energy: Prices ...... 350W TRANSPORT ...... 302W Heating ...... 350W Office of Traffic Commissioners...... 302W Nuclear Power Stations: Construction ...... 351W Roads: Accidents ...... 303W Radioactive Waste...... 351W Roads: Safety ...... 303W Wind Power ...... 352W Transport: Aberdeenshire...... 303W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TREASURY ...... 359W AFFAIRS...... 293W Banks: Finance ...... 359W Animal Welfare: Circuses...... 293W Child Benefit: Scotland ...... 360W Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 ...... 293W Child Tax Credit ...... 361W Dogs: Electric Shock Equipment ...... 293W Company Accounts...... 361W Natural England: Agriculture ...... 294W Corporation Tax: Financial Services...... 361W Poultry: Animal Welfare ...... 294W Departmental Postal Services...... 361W Dunfermline Building Society: KPMG...... 362W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 311W Economic Growth...... 363W Colombia: Homicide...... 311W Energy: Subsidies ...... 363W Departmental Written Questions ...... 312W EU Budget ...... 363W EU Institutions: Audit ...... 313W EU External Trade: Israel ...... 365W Israel: OECD ...... 313W European Financial Stability Mechanism ...... 366W Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks...... 367W HEALTH...... 319W Financial Inclusion Fund...... 367W Care Homes ...... 319W Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands ...... 367W Care Homes: Personnel...... 320W Monetary Policy ...... 368W Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease...... 321W Pensions: Annuities...... 368W Dental Services ...... 321W Public Expenditure...... 368W Dental Services: Bolton...... 321W Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services ...... 370W Dental Services: Manpower ...... 322W Tax Yields: Savings ...... 370W Dental Services: Training ...... 322W Taxation: Graduates ...... 370W Departmental Regulation...... 323W Taxation: Inspections...... 371W Diabetes: Health Services...... 324W Trading Funds ...... 371W Disability: Children...... 325W Working Tax Credit ...... 372W Health Protection Agency: Ex-servicemen ...... 325W Medical Treatments: Haemophilia ...... 326W WALES...... 329W Prescription Drugs...... 326W Departmental Written Questions ...... 329W Stem Cells: Fats...... 326W Public Expenditure...... 329W

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 294W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 354W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 294W Access to Work Programme ...... 354W Crime: Young People ...... 296W Disability Living Allowance...... 354W Offensive Weapons: Crime ...... 296W Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes ...... 355W UK Border Agency: Personnel...... 301W Employment Schemes: Disability...... 355W Vetting ...... 301W Future Jobs Fund: Third Sector...... 356W Homelessness...... 356W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 314W Housing Benefit: Down’s Syndrome ...... 357W Industrial Health and Safety...... 314W Institute for Fiscal Studies ...... 357W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Public Sector: Pay ...... 358W Vacancies: North West and Flintshire ...... 358W Remploy...... 358W Veterinary Services: Regulation...... 359W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 358W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 24 November 2010

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 24 November 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 247] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Schools White Paper [Col. 267] Statement—(Michael Gove)

Epilepsy and Related Conditions (Education and Health Services) [Col. 292] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Valerie Vaz)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill [Col. 295] Further considered in Committee

House of Commons Commission [Col. 374] Motion—(Mr Heath)—agreed to

Constitutional Law [Col. 377] Motion—(David Mundell); Division deferred till Wednesday 1 December

Bookmakers and Planning (Haringey) [Col. 403] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Northern Ireland [Col. 411] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Northern Ireland [Col. 415] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Health and Safety [Col. 419] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Health and Safety [Col. 423] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Overseas Voluntary Sector [Col. 77WH] Lesotho [Col. 101WH] Independent Retailers [Col. 108WH] Concessionary Travel [Col. 132WH] Pennine Lancashire Local Enterprise Partnership [Col. 141WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 37WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 293W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 3MC]