A Conversatonwith.. Adrienne Clarke NeilA. Campbell

Australiais home to an ex- boards its role is to set policy, to hire (and fire) the traordinarynumber of the chief executive (through the Minister), to monitor the worldleaders in botanicaland progress of the organization, and to make sure that agricultural research, and the financial reporting and the achievements of the

AdrienneClarke is one of the organization are consistent with the government's Downloaded from http://online.ucpress.edu/abt/article-pdf/58/1/34/47429/4450069.pdf by guest on 24 September 2021 mostprominent of theseAus- goals. The CSIROboard is very diverse. We have a / _ tralian plant biologists. In farmerwho was an academic chemist before he went * fact, as chairman of the back to the family farm; the chief executive of a big CSIRO board, the national food company; a chief executive from a mining com- agencyfor scienceand tech- pany; someone from the banking sector; another nology, Dr. Clarkeis one of business leader who is also an engineer; someone 's most influential who is a union representative; an animal biologist; scientists.I traveledto Aus- and an academic physicist who is the Deputy Vice traliato interviewDr. Clarke Chancellor of Research from a university in Western in her officeat the Universityof ,where she is Australia. Professorof Botany.Professor Clarke arrived for the inter- view from a meeting with top Australiangovernment Campbell: Is your work as Chairman at CSIRO officials,so it seemedtimely for me to beginby askingher politically sensitive? aboutCSIRO and its nationalimportance. Clarke:Well, because we are a government-funded organization to a large extent-70% of our budget Campbell: What is CSIRO and what is its mission? comes from the government-and we report to the Clarke: CSIRO stands for the Commonwealth Scien- government, there is clearly a political component to tific and Industrial Research Organization. It is the my role. main government body that does research for the benefit of Australia. We do scientific research related Campbell: How do you see science fitting into the to the main economic sectors of the country, primar- country's political and economic landscape? ily mining, energy, and agriculture. We also do a lot Clarke:It is very clear to the State now that science of research on environmental problems. As our econ- and technology are driving our future. Look at min- omy is changing from the traditional base of agricul- ing, where we are very successful. It is tremendously ture and mining, manufacturing is becoming more technology-intensive. People think that it is digging important and so we are putting more emphasis into up a bucket of coal, but mining requires exploring the some aspects of manufacturing technology and infor- earth, scooping out of the mine, scheduling and mation technology. engineering the banks of the pits, moving materialon the railways, and loading of ships. Another example Campbell: What are your responsibilities as Chair- is agriculture;it is absolutely based on technology. man of the CSIRO Board? Look at wheat, for example-the breeding of wheat Clarke: As Chairman of the board my responsibility is varieties, the wheat harvest, the processing, and the to report to government on the research activities of evaluation of flour-people seem to forget that it is all the organization in relation to the governing Act of enormously technology-intensive. Parliament and a set of Ministerial guidelines. The board is drawn from the community and like most Campbell: Would you say that scientists and politi- cians approach problems differently? Clarke:Yes, I think they do. They are under different Nell A. Campbell is a VisitingScholar in the Department of PlantSciences, Universityof California,Riverside, CA 92521. pressures and are from different backgrounds. The scientists, very comfortablewith acknowledging that

34 THEAMERICAN BIOLOGY TEACHER, VOLUME 58, NO. 1, JANUARY1996 they do not know something, can say, "Well, I don't genetic locus with multiple alleles that controls self- know what the answers are," and then set about incompatibility. This gene-the S gene (for self-in- systematically acquiring the knowledge to solve the compatibility)-directs the secretion of a glycoprotein problem. On the other hand, it is often difficult for (that is a sugar joined to a protein) into the cells of the politicians to admit ignorance. They are often under pistil. This is the pistil tissue through which the enormous time pressures to come up with some pollen tubes must grow to reach the ovules and decision and they are subject to bombardment from fertilize eggs. As the pollen tubes grow on their way various interest groups that are often competing. I down to the ovary, they are bathed with the glyco- think politicians and scientists have to understand protein. We isolated the glycoprotein, cloned the each other's culture and try to come to grips with gene, and found, very interestingly, that it is a working productively together. ribonuclease (RNase). That is, it has an enzymatic function to degrade RNA. We believe that it acts as a Campbell: In addition to your position with the toxin to "self" pollen. What happens is that RNAase CSIRO, you also direct the Plant Cell Biology Re- is taken up from the female tissues into the male search Centre at the . What pollen tube. If it is a self-incompatiblesituation (i.e. if are the research objectives of this group? the pollen and pistil have matching alleles for the S Downloaded from http://online.ucpress.edu/abt/article-pdf/58/1/34/47429/4450069.pdf by guest on 24 September 2021 Clarke:The Plant Cell Biology ResearchCentre is one gene) we can see that the ribosomal RNA of the of the original special research centers set up by the pollen is degraded. Pollen, unlike most other tissues Australian government. In this center we study two and cells, is apparently not able to make more ribo- related fundamental questions in biology: one ques- somal RNA. When pollen is produced, it has all the tion is how plants recognize and resist fungal infec- ribosomal RNA that it is ever going to have. Once it tion, and the other has to do with how plants fertilize is gone, the pollen can no longer produce proteins, themselves or other If plants. you look at flowers, and so growth of the pollen tube grinds to a halt. you will see that many have the female part, the The missing link in all of this, the part we don't pistil, very closely pressed to the male part, the understand yet, is the nature of the product of the S anther. If the flowers were left to their own devices, gene in pollen and what controls the the sperm in the pollen from a particularplant would specificity. How fertilize the female in that same plant. This would is it that the RNAase from the pistil tissue destroys lead to inbreeding and inbreeding depression. So, RNA in self pollen but not in non-self pollen? It is a very early in evolution plants devised a way of very hot topic, and there are many labs around the ensuring outcrossing that would make the female world working on it now. recognize and reject the male from the same plant-a mechanism of self-incompatibility.How the plant can distinguish self from non-self is a very fundamental Campbell: Earlier, you connected your research on question in plant biology. Not only does it tell us self-incompatibility in plants to the plant's defenses something about how plants achieve fertilization, it against pathogens, especially fungi. How are those also tells us more broadly about how plant cells two processes similar? recognize each other. In the animals, cells are recog- Clarke:It is always a little dangerous to draw parallels nized as being self or non-self (foreign) by the im- too finely, but there are simple parallels. If you look mune system. Humans have a circulatingblood sys- at it in the grossest sense, you can imagine that a tem with white blood cells that can recognize and fungal hypha is a bit like a pollen tube because it reject foreign material. We basically understand how grows from the tip and penetrates into the tissues of recognition of foreign materials happens in the ani- the host plant. Another parallelis that in many cases mal system, but we have very little idea at all of how the resistance of the plant to a fungus is controlledby it happens in plants. By understanding how a plant a single gene, which has some resemblance to the recognizes self and non-self pollen, we will get some genetic system I described for self-incompatibilityin insight into how plants recognize and reject other plant fertilization.Some responses of the plant to self foreign invaders such as fungi and other pathogenic pollen and fungal hyphae are similar. One common organisms. response in the arrested growth of an incompatible pollen tube involves the plant depositing a material Campbell: What is the genetic basis for self-incom- called callose. In a fungal infection, one of the things patibility? How does a plant distinguish self and the host plant often does to defend itself is to deposit non-self? callose in its walls and around the penetration site, Clarke: We don't know the full answer yet, but which helps to arrest growth of the fungus and working with plants in the tomato family (such as contain the infection. These are just some of the tomato, tobacco and potato), we found a single parallels.

INTERVIEWWITH ADRIENNE CLARKE 35 Tools for learning science ... Campbell: What impact is biotechnology having on agriculture? as a way of knowing Clarke: I think biotechnology promises to change agriculture, possibly most dramaticallyin two areas. One is improving the efficiency of selective breeding. As DNA technology enables us to correlate certain phenotypes with certain genes and their products, breeding for certain traits in crop 7 4~~~~~ plants will be faster and more accurate. Another important impact of biotechnology is in the area of disease and insect resistance in plants. There is huge pressure in this area to reduce the use of chemicals. So there is a lot of interest in using biotechnology to engineer plants to produce naturaltoxins, for instance, so that the use of

pesticides and other chemicals can be reduced. Downloaded from http://online.ucpress.edu/abt/article-pdf/58/1/34/47429/4450069.pdf by guest on 24 September 2021

Campbell: What influenced you to become a scien- tist? The BioQUESTm Library is a compendium of computer- Clarke: I based tools, simulations, and textual materials to support grew up on a farm, and I think the rural research-like investigations in your biology classroom. experience influences a lot of people to become These resources, now in use at hundreds of institutions scientists. In the bush, we're observers of the natural across the country, have been designed for use in world from an early age. I went to a small girls school cooperative learning environments that emphasize and we didn't have much in the way of science BioQUEST's 3P's: the scientific processes of Problem- teaching. However, I had one very inspirational posing, Problem-solving, and peer Persuasion. teacher who taught me math and physics. She also did a wonderful thing: She took a The heart of the Libraryis the BioQUEST Core Collection, band of teenage a set of peer-reviewed, field-tested modules addressing girls, including myself, on a trip to the BarrierReef, issues in evolution, genetics, ecology, molecular biology, and there I saw a whole new world under the water. and physiology. This Collection, together with additional I was astounded at the diversity of the forms and the Collection Candidates and supplemental modules provide colors. I also found I was good at science. I did well, more than 40 simulations and tools for addressing a wide got scholarships, and wanted to go on. range of issues in bio-science teaching and learning.

The BioQUEST Libraryis distributed on CD-ROM. Campbell: And what attracted you to your research Individual user licenses for the full Libraryare available for specialty of plant cell biology? $99 (payable to the University of Maryland). For site Clarke: I started in the field of plant carbohydrate licenses, upgrade pricing, and/or other ordering chemistry, and the initial attractionwas the people I information, contact: knew I would be working with. For me, the environ- The ePress Projecttm ment is as important as the work itself. When you ComputerScience Center, Bldg. 224 start on a scientific project, it is usually going to last Universityof Maryland for several years and you want to feel very comfort- College Park,MD 20742 able with the people that you are working with. First 301-405-7600 [email protected] of all they have to have a professional skill that you To receive BioQUESTNotes, the newsletterof the BioQUEST admire, and second they have to be nice people. I CurriculumConsortium, contact: think you have to feel comfortable, you have to feel happy with BioQUESTCurriculum Consortium what you do. BeloitCollege 700 College Street Campbell: You continue to be a voice for Beloit,WI 53511 strong the 608-363-2743 [email protected] value of teamwork in science. Why do you think this is so important? Clarke:I think that science has now, in many areas, BioQUESThas received majorfunding and supportfrom ... become so complex. The biggest problems that you LI The Annenberg/CPBProject tackle, which are the ones that will make an impact,

With additional support from require different skills and different technologies. the National Scince Foundation. You have to build a team the Foundationfor M~rbooy, because no one person can A4pteComputer, Inc., have all those technologies and the HowardHughes Medical Institute. under his or her belt. For instance, we might have a physical chemist working

36 THEAMERICAN BIOLOGY TEACHER, VOLUME 58, NO. 1, JANUARY1996 on the flow properties of a gum thickenerfor the food industry. That physical chemist will also need to Announcing know what this materialis made of, so there's a need for an analytical chemist. And if the material comes from a plant, then a plant biologist should be part of The Bio USSP' Library the team. There are all sorts of examples of those situations. You need multidisciplinaryteams to tackle 3rd Edition big problems. The third edition of the BioQUEST Libraryis now avail- Interviewer: Why do you think women are still able. In addition to the modules and materials included in underrepresented in scientific careers? last year's edition, the third edition also includes... Clarke: As I see it, it is often the conflict between biological destiny and a career pathway that doesn't Enhanced and expanded ecology offerings: allow for people to be out of the work force at some EnvironmentalDecision Making - (CoreCollection upgrade) time. I struggled with this. When I came back to revised to utilize the features of the new expanded version Australiaafter several years in Americain 1963, I was of the Extend" modeling environment. Downloaded from http://online.ucpress.edu/abt/article-pdf/58/1/34/47429/4450069.pdf by guest on 24 September 2021 pregnant with my third child, and I said, "So, I will Biota - (CoreCollection upgrade) significant new features be a mother now." I cleaned out the cupboard and include a linear growth model and new interactions. got all these researchpapers together and threw them Ecobeaker - (FirstReview) a new simulation designed to in the fire. As I saw the flames leaping, I changed my allow the creation and exploration of ecological models. mind. Luckily, I was able to save the papers in time. EliMeir (University of Washington) One of the things that we have done at the Uni- Sampling - (FirstReview) a new software module that allows versity of Melbourne is to ensure that women who students to sample a population of sedentary "organisms" are talented and enthusiastic in their careers may that are distributed spatially in a variety of ways. have part-time work or time out to have a baby. Dan Udovic,Gordon Hennesy, and WillGoodwin (Universityof Oregon) Campbell: Do you think science is changing as a Sim-Bio2 - (FirstReview) a new module that simulates the result of more women participating? Biosphere 2 project and allows users to manipulate and Clarke: It is very hard to draw generalizations, but experiment with the Biosphere 2 model. men and women tell me that ElisabethC. Odum(Santa Fe CommunityCollege), people who study H.T. Odum(University of Florida- Gainesville) women are generally better at nurturingother people and at information-sharing skills, which might be Additional Ecology and Botany Simulations (First Review, helpful in the lab. I am not sure that I would abso- Microsoft?Windows") lutely say that is true because most of the men that I work closely with have been very good at sharing and A new topical focus -- developmental biology: communicating. Image Analysis of Starfish Embryos - (FirstReview) a software module that allows students to study digital Campbell: What advice do you have for students images of starfish embryos in cleavage using NIH Image. who are considering careers in science? RobertBlystone (Trinity University) Clarke: Well, my advice is that if you do the basic Morphogenetic Construction Kit - (FirstReview) a software training in science, you can then branch off to do all module designed to facilitate the exploration of mathemati- sorts of things. For young women considering fu- cal models of patterns(Microsoft? Windows"). tures in science, it's importantto understand that it is Dr.Douglas Green (St. MichaelsCollege) possible, with some difficulty, to have a family and Particle Diffusion Laboratory - (FirstReview) a simulation have a satisfying career too. This will become less of particle diffusion intended as an introduction to pattern difficult as our social structure continues to change formation in embryology. and men take more of a role in the household and Pattern Formation Laboratory - (FirstReview) a simulation child-rearingduties. There are also tremendous op- of embryological pattern formation emphasizing the portunities opening up now for people with combi- Gierer-Meinhardt reaction-diffusion equations. and of skills-science with accounting, science BenjaminJones (BeloitCollege), nations Dr.Douglas Green (St. MichaelsCollege) with law, science and engineering, a whole range of combinations in science and technology. I would say if women are interested in science careers, they should do it. As I say, as our structuresare changing, Announcingthe officialBioQUEST Library web page, it is very much easier both to pursue a career and to nowon-line at the followinglocation: raise a family than it was back when I was doing it. http://terrapin.umd.edu/BioQUEST_Library.html

INTERVIEWWITH ADRIENNE CLARKE 37