32 T2003/4 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1125 T125 Volume 125, No. 18 ISSN 1742-2256

T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N (HANSARD)

Douglas, Tuesday, 15th July 2008

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man. © Court of Tynwald, 2008 Printed by The Copy Shop Limited, 48 Bucks Road, Douglas, Isle of Man Price Band I 1126 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008

Present:

The President of Tynwald (The Hon. N Q Cringle, OBE)

In the Council: The Attorney General (Mr W J H Corlett QC), Mr D Butt, Mr D A Callister, Mrs C M Christian, Mr E A Crowe, Mr A F Downie, Mr E G Lowey, Mr J R Turner and Mr G H Waft, with Mr J King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (Garff); The Chief Minister (The Hon. J A Brown) (Castletown); Hon. D M Anderson (Glenfaba); Hon. A V Craine and Hon. A R Bell (Ramsey); Hon. W E Teare (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); Mr T Crookall (Peel); Mr P Karran, Hon. A J Earnshaw and Mr D J Quirk (Onchan); Hon. G M Quayle (Middle); Mr R W Henderson and Mr J R Houghton (Douglas North); Hon. D C Cretney and Mr W M Malarkey (Douglas South); Mr R P Braidwood and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas East); Mr C G Corkish MBE and Hon. J P Shimmin (Douglas West); Mr G D Cregeen (Malew and Santon); Mr J P Watterson, Hon. P A Gawne and Mr Q B Gill (Rushen); with Mr M Cornwell-Kelly, Clerk of Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1127 T125

Business transacted Page Leave of absence granted ...... 1129 Tribute to Mrs Betty Hanson, Former Member ...... 1129 Papers laid before the Court ...... 1129

Questions for Oral Answer 1. Waste disposal – Bottom ash and toxic substances ...... 1131

Questions 2, 9, 10, 14, 25, 28, 29, 30, 31 answered in writing

3. Disability Discrimination Bill – Update on progress ...... 1132 4. Liverpool, European Capital of Culture – Congratulations and links with Island ...... 1132 5. Green energy policy – Aims ...... 1133 6. ACU Events Ltd – Date of incorporation, directors and shareholders ...... 1135 7. Low Incomes Working Group – Schemes for winter ...... 1135 8. Depositors’ Compensation Scheme – Decision re no change ...... 1137 11. Manx Electricity Authority – Adherence to Financial Regulations ...... 1139 12. Upper Pulrose houses – Redevelopment progress ...... 1139 13. Hillside Avenue council houses – Installation of central heating ...... 1140 15. Kerbside collection service – Costing and accounting ...... 1142 16. Drug and Alcohol Unit – Progress on full operation ...... 1143 17. Long-term residential care – Rescinding restriction ...... 1145 18. Social workers – Accountability; complaints measures ...... 1147 19. DHSS policy changes – Announcements without consultation ...... 1148 20. New prison, Jurby – Lack of remedial work ...... 1149 21. Hoteliers – Survey of business referrals ...... 1150 22. Summerland site – Future plans ...... 1150 23. Lord Street bus station site – Progress made ...... 1151 24. TT 2008 – Commission and fees paid ...... 1152 26. Shaw’s Brow car park – Use of level 3 ...... 1154 27. Road Traffic Act – Removal of schedule 2 ...... 1155

Questions for Written Answer 2. EuroManx/Quest – Aircraft leaving Isle of Man ...... 1157 9. Seaweed as fertiliser – Investigations ...... 1157 10. Marine aggregate extraction – Environmental damage ...... 1157 14. Old Ramsey swimming pool – Plans ...... 1158 25. Marine aggregate extraction – Ban on export ...... 1158 28. Second Bullen Report – Recommendations ...... 1159 29. Marine aggregate extraction – Coastal erosion ...... 1159 30. EuroManx aircraft – Impounding by Flybe ...... 1160 31. Medicines Advertising Act 2003 – Alleged breach by public health officials ...... 1160 32. EuroManx Ltd/EuroManx Airways GmbH – Liquidation ...... 1160 33. New Revenue Sharing Agreement – Large sum owed to UK ...... 1161 34. EuroManx – Removal of aircraft from Island ...... 1161 35. Police – Employment at motor sport events ...... 1162 36. Health and Safety Division – Complaints against ...... 1163 37. Director of Public Health; consultant in Public Health medicine – Annual salaries ...... 1163

Orders of the Day 3. Preservation of war memorials – Statement by the Chief Minister ...... 1164 4. Nursing homes: need for retirement planning – Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Security ...... 1164

The Court adjourned at 1.00 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.

North West Primary Health Care – Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Security ...... 1165 5. Footpaths at Langness – Statement by the Chairman of the Delegation ...... 1166 1128 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008

Bills for signature: Corruption Bill 2008; Agricultural (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008; Town and Country Planning (Amendment) Bill 2008 ...... 1167

6. Manx Servicemen and Servicewomen – Veterans exposed to nuclear testing – Report accepted and recommendations approved ...... 1167 7. Manx Servicemen and Servicewomen – Veterans exposed to nuclear testing – Ex gratia payment approved ...... 1169 8. Airport control tower – Expenditure approved ...... 1169 9. IRIS Regional Sewage Treatment Strategy – Expenditure approved ...... 1178 10. Glenfaba Hoard of Viking silver – Ex gratia payment approved ...... 1181 11. Central Community Healthcare Development – Phase 1 – Expenditure approved ...... 1183

The Court adjourned at 4.50 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.20 p.m.

12. Ballakermeen bus lay-by and parking – Expenditure approved ...... 1185 13. Renewal of ICT Intranet Infrastructure – Expenditure approved ...... 1190 14. Laxey Car Shed – Expenditure approved ...... 1193 15. Langness peninsula footpaths – Debate resumed and further adjourned ...... 1196 16. War Pensions Committee – Mr John Cleverley appointed ...... 1197 17. Economic Initiatives Committee – Report 2007-08 received and recommendations approved ...... 1197 18. Tynwald Standing Orders Committee – Second Report 2007-08 received and recommendations approved ...... 1203

Continuation of business after 8.00 p.m. – Motion lost ...... 1210

The Court adjourned at 8.20 p.m.

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year:-

Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted upon application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office, Legislative Buildings, Douglas, Isle of Man IM1 3PW. Papers Laid TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1129 T125

drive to forge and to keep alive the Manx societies around the Tynwald world. Open and forthright in her views, Betty was always concerned to help those in need and was involved in many charitable and voluntary organisations such as the Isle of The Court met at 10.30 a.m. Man branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society. She was also a passionate believer in equality for women and was president of the Manx Council for Women between 1985 and 1995. [MR PRESIDENT in the Chair] Hon. Members, a rock to her family, she was predeceased by her husband and our thoughts today go to her sons and to the wider family. Hon. Members, I would ask that we all now stand in a The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please be upstanding moment’s silence in remembrance of former colleague, Mrs for the President of Tynwald. Betty Quirk Hanson.

The President: Hon. Members, I call upon the Chaplain Members stood in silence. to lead us in prayer. The President: Thank you, Hon. Members.

PRAYERS The Chaplain of the House of Keys Papers laid before the Court

The President: Hon. Members, before I call on the Clerk to lay papers, I would point out that the laid before Item LEAVE OF ABSENCE GRANTED entitled the ‘Guidance Notes on Anti-Money Laundering and Preventing the Financing of Terrorism – for Insurers’ The President: Hon. Members, I have granted leave of was issued without a statutory document number. Hon. absence to the Lord Bishop for the whole of this sitting to Members, for your record, the statutory document number attend the Lambeth Conference. I have also agreed, Hon. of the paper is SD 575/08. Members, that the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie, I call upon the Clerk to lay papers. can be absent for tomorrow and Thursday and Mr Attorney from Thursday. Other Members, Hon. Members, are likely The Clerk: Mr President, I lay before the Court the to be absent on Thursday afternoon, should we still be sitting documents at Item 1 of the Order Paper. at that particular time. Government Departments Act 1987 – Transfer of Functions (Online Gambling Regulations) Order 2008 [SD No 564/08] TRIBUTE TO MRS BETTY HANSON FORMER MEMBER Merchant Shipping Act 1995 – Merchant Shipping Act 1995 (Bunkers Convention) The President: Hon. Members, you are, of course, (Application) Order 2008 [SD No 531/08] aware of the recent death of one of our former colleagues, Mrs Betty Hanson. Betty was Manx through and through, Road Traffic Act 1985 – she was born in the west of the Island in November 1918 Road Vehicles Carrying Dangerous Goods (Construction and educated then in Peel and Douglas, before going on to and Use) Regulations 2008 [SD No 566/08] train as a teacher in England. Hon. Members, Betty’s first involvement in politics came Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985 – in 1971, when she was elected as a non-Tynwald member Licensing and Registration of Vehicles (Amendment) of the then Board of Education. The same day as myself, in Regulations 2008 [SD No 565/08] 1974, she was elected as a Member of the House of Keys for Douglas West, a seat which she held until 1982. In that Value Added Tax Act 1996 – year, she was elected to the Legislative Council, having the Value Added Tax (Buildings and Land) Order 2008 [SD honour of being the first woman to be elected to the Council No 341/08] by the House of Keys. Her career in Tynwald continued until she retired in 1988. Income Tax Act 2003 – She served on numerous Keys and Council and Tynwald Income Tax (Netherlands and USA) (Amendment) Order committees and was chair of the Millennium Committee 2008 [SD No 498/08] between 1977 and 1979. She held a number of Government posts such as the chair of the Board of Education and was Income Tax Act 1970 – vice-chair for a period of the Local Government Board. Income Tax (Approved Pension Schemes) (Rate of Betty Quirk Hanson certainly had a very full and Tax on Unauthorised Payments) Order 2008 [SD No committed life. Hon. Members, while I have paid particular 511/08] tribute to her and her time here in Tynwald, I could very Income Tax (Approved Personal Pension Schemes) easily and equally have commented on her service to the (Rate of Tax on Balance of Funds) Order 2008 [SD No community during those difficult war years, or in fact her 512/08]

Leave of absence granted Tribute to Mrs Betty Hanson, former Member Papers laid before the Court 1130 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Papers Laid

Income Tax Act 1989 – Social Security Act 2000 – Income Tax (Approved Personal Pension Schemes) Social Security Administration Act 1992 (Application) (Value of Member’s Funds) Regulations 2008 [SD No (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2008 [SD No 482/08] 510/08] Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) Income Tax (Approved Pension Schemes) (Relevant (Amendment) Order 2008 [SD No 483/08] Earnings) Regulations 2008 [SD No 513/08] Social Security Act 1998 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2008 [SD No 484/08] Income Tax Act 1970, Income Tax (Retirement Benefit Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) Schemes) Act 1978 and Income Tax Act 1989 – (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2008 [SD No 485/08] Income Tax (Approved Pension Schemes) (Rate of Tax Social Security Legislation (Contributions) (Application) on Trivial Commutation Lump Sums) Order 2008 [SD (No. 3) Order 2008 [SD No 487/08] No 509/08] Social Security Legislation (Contributions) (Application) (No. 4) Order 2008 [SD No 488/08] Income Tax (Retirement Benefit Schemes) Act 1978 and Social Security Legislation (Contributions) (Application) Income Tax Act 1989 – (No. 5) Order 2008 [SD No 486/08] Income Tax (Approved Pension Schemes) (Trivial Commutation Lump Sums) Regulations 2008 [SD No Pension Schemes Act 1995 – 508/08] Pension Schemes Act 1993 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2008 [SD No 489/08] Nursing Care Contribution Scheme 2008 – Income Tax Extra Statutory Concession Nursing Care Fireworks Act 2004 – Contribution Scheme 2008 [GC No 32/08] Fireworks (Variation of Restrictions) Order 2008 [SD No 533/08] Legal Aid Act 1986 – Legal Aid (Miscellaneous Amendment) Regulations Licensing Act 1995 – 2008 [SD No 108/08] Licensing (Evidence of Age) Regulations 2008 [SD No 536/08] Financial Services Act 2008 – Regulated Activities Order 2008 [SD No 367/08] Local Government Act 1985 – Authorised Collective Investment Schemes Malew Parish General Byelaws 2008 [SD No 532/08] (Compensation) Regulations 2008 [SD No 373/08] Financial Services Rule Book 2008 [SD No 369/08] Superannuation Act 1984 – Financial Services (Exemptions) Regulations 2008 [SD Superannuation Transitional Amendment Scheme 2008 No 368/08] [SD No 518/08] Financial Services (Fees) Order 2008 [SD No 370/08] Civil Service Etc (Additional Voluntary Contributions, Financial Services (‘Not Fit and Proper’) Regulations Compensation and Injury Benefits) Scheme 2008 2008 [SD No 371/08] [SD No 519/08] Financial Services (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2008 [SD No 372/08] Financial Services (Register of Permitted Persons) Reports Regulations 2008 [SD No 530/08] Report of the Standing Committee on Economic Initiatives for the Session 2007-08 [PP89/08] Collective Investment Schemes Act 2008 – Second Report of the Standing Orders Committee for the Collective Investment Schemes (Definition) Order 2008 Session 2007-08 [PP91/08] [SD No 462/08] Council of Ministers’ Report on matters relating to the Royal Assent and any implications relating to the Island regarding Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989 – the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union Attendance Allowances Order 2008 [SD No 317/08] [GR No 027/08] Report of the Council of Ministers’ Manx Veterans Laxey Glen Mills Milling Wheat Scheme 2008 – Exposed to Nuclear Testing in the 1950s and 1960s [GR Laxey Glen Mills Milling Wheat Scheme 2008 [GC No 028/08] No 31/08]

Bees Act 1989 – Note: The following items are not the subject of motions on Bee Diseases and Pests Control (Isle of Man) Order 2008 the Order Paper [SD No 517/08] Financial Services Act 2008 – Inland Fisheries Act 1976 – Financial Services Disputes (Definition) Order 2008 Inland Fisheries (Winter Fishing) Regulations 2008 [SD [SD No 472/08] No 516/08] Civil Aviation Act 1982 (of the United Kingdom Nursing Care Contribution Scheme 2008 – Parliament) – Nursing Care Contribution Scheme 2008 [GC No Air Navigation (Isle of Man) (Amendment) Order 2008 30/08] [UK SI 2008 No 1487]

Papers laid before the Court Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1131 T125

Insurance Act 1986 – The President: Chief Minister. Insurance (Anti-Money Laundering) Regulations 2008 [SD No 144/08] The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr President. Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989 – Mr President, the Department of Local Government and Payment of Members’ Expenses (Specified Bodies) the Environment, on behalf of… is tasked with providing (Amendment) Order 2008 [SD No 515/08] suitable disposal routes for the waste produced from the Energy from Waste Plant and I can confirm that the bottom Guidance Notes on Anti-Money Laundering and ash from the plant is currently land-filled at Turkeylands in Preventing the Financing of Terrorism – for Insurers Malew. (Long Term Business) [SD No 575/08] I am advised that SITA, the operators of the Energy from Waste Plant, have brought forward plans to the Department Dogs Act 1990 – to recycle the bottom ash into secondary aggregate. I am also Dogs (Fixed Penalty Notice) Regulations 2008 [SD No advised that there are no toxic substances produced by the 557/08] Energy from Waste Plant. However, the air pollution control residues (APCRs), otherwise known as fly-ash, are classified Immigration Rules – as hazardous as they have a high lime content. Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules [SD No The residuals are currently shipped to the United 500/08] Kingdom and are then made into blocks and landfilled. [Interruption] Norway, where the residuals can be recycled, Appointed Day Orders is going to be introduced by SITA in the near future, which Financial Services Act 2008 (Appointed Day) Order 2008 is not only an environmentally better option than landfill, [SD No 366/08] but is also cheaper than exporting the waste to the United Income Tax (Pensions) Act 2008 (Appointed Day) Order Kingdom. 2008 [SD No 432/08] Thank you, sir. Collective Investment Schemes Act 2008 (Appointed Day) Order 2008 [SD No 461/08] The President: Hon. Member for Michael. Reports Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme Report for 2007/08 Mr Cannan: Can the Chief Minister confirm that there [GR No 022/08] are proposals by SITA that the air pollution control residue A Report by the Chief Secretary – Complaints made against materials are to be stored in a hangar at Jurby, and if so, why Departments of Government and Statutory Boards during the were Jurby Commissioners not informed, the MHK for that year ended 31st December 2007 [GR No 007/08] constituency not informed? Report of the Civil Service Commission to the Chief Minister 1st April 2007 to 31st March 2008 [GR No 026/08] The President: Chief Minister. A Report by the Council of Ministers on the Policy and Funding of Overseas Aid [GR No 024/08] The Chief Minister: Yes, Mr President, I am advised that Housing Review Progress Report by the Department of Local they are to be stored at the hangar at Jurby. I am not sure why Government and the Environment [GR No 025/08] the Member was not informed or why the Commissioners were not, but I am sure that the Department will take on board the comments he has raised.

The President: Member for Michael. Questions for Oral Answer Mr Cannan: Would it not be in the interests of transparency of government, of which the Chief Minister CHIEF MINISTER has promulgated as a major policy of his Department, to have ensured that there was consultation before this… these Waste disposal proposals by SITA to store the air pollution residual in Jurby Bottom ash and toxic substances was made public? Surely it would be a matter of courtesy and good manners by the Department of Local Government? 1. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Chief Minister: The President: Chief Minister.

What are the Council of Ministers’ proposals for the The Chief Minister: I agree, Mr President, that if they disposal of the incinerator bottom ash and other toxic were not informed, I think that is unfortunate and I am sure, substances? again, the Minister is aware of that and normal procedure is that a local authority would be informed. The President: We turn then, Hon. Members, to our Question Paper and I call on the Hon. Member for Michael. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmin. Question 1, sir. The Minister for Local Government and the Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Question standing Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. in my name, sir. Would the Chief Minister assist me by passing on my

Papers laid before the Court Waste disposal – Bottom ash and toxic substances 1132 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Oral Answers apologies, if offence has been caused to the Hon. Member Hon. Member, Mr Waft. for Kirk Michael and the Commissioners in that area, and I call on the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Waft. I will move quickly during this week to try and remedy the situation as best we can. Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: I am sure the Chief Minister will agree that. The President: Chief Minister. Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. President. Can I ask, if the fly ash is to be stored in this particular Mr President, in answer to part (a) of the Question, I constituency, what are the storage arrangements, bearing in can advise that this complex matter is being progressed by mind that fly ash is highly toxic and very dangerous? the Council of Ministers’ Social Policy Committee. The Committee has agreed that in order to ensure a full and The President: Chief Minister. co-ordinated implementation process there is a need for additional resources. The Chief Minister: Yes, thank you, Mr President. It was further agreed that specialist advice is required in It is not highly dangerous, but it is toxic, and certainly order to develop the introduction of the Act and its regulations, I am sure that all precautions necessary will be undertaken. especially as there will be significant implications, both It is proposed that it will be stored in a refurbished hangar financially and practically, to all providers of goods and services to the public. Officers have been progressing this at Jurby, and I am sure that the environmental officers will matter and the Social Policy Committee expects to report ensure that it is to a standard that is acceptable, sir. later this month. In answer to part (b), whilst it took the United Kingdom The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. over a period of 10 years to implement the equivalent legislation, it is our intention, subject to the availability Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. of appropriate finance, to implement its introduction three Could I ask the Chief Minister, has this application, or the years following on from the appointment of the specialist waste licence application, been publicly done in the papers advisers. and, if so, does he have a concern that the Department of In answer to part (c), as the Act will have significant Local Government is the regulatory agency for agreeing this? implications, both financially and practically, to all providers Is there not, then, a conflict of interest in the same division, of goods and services throughout the Island, it is important to progressing an application which it is trying to promote? ensure that its introduction be progressed. However, I must remind Hon. Members that this is an Act which will have a The President: Chief Minister. significant impact on a large number of providers. Thank you, Mr President. The Chief Minister: Mr President, there are statutory requirements which the Department will follow, sir. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Waft.

Mr Waft: I thank the Chief Minister for his reply.

Questions 2, 9, 10, 14, 25, 28, 29, 30, 31 to be answered in writing Liverpool, European Capital of Culture The President: Now, Hon. Members, the Hon. Member, Congratulations and links with Island Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan, has phoned in this morning. He is unwell, he is indisposed, Hon. Members. His 4. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Waft, to ask the Questions will, then, be answered in writing. Chief Minister: (a) Have you yet congratulated the city of Liverpool on becoming the European Capital of Culture; Disability Discrimination Bill (b) what progress has been made in furthering the Update on progress Island’s profile within that city; (c) what is the estimated number of visitors from the city 3. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Waft, to ask the visiting our shores? Chief Minister: The President: We turn, then, to Question 4. Again, I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Waft. (a) Will you update the public as to what stage the Disability Discrimination Bill is progressing; Mr Waft: I beg to ask the Question standing in my (b) when do you expect the Bill to become enacted; name, sir. and (c) why has it taken so long to establish the rights of the The President: Chief Minister. disabled in legal form? The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr The President: We turn to Question 3 and I call on the President.

Waste disposal – Bottom ash and toxic substances Questions 2, 9, 10, 14, 25, 28, 29, 30, 31 to be answered in writing Disability Discrimination Bill – Update on progress Liverpool, European Capital of Culture – Congratulations and links with Island Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1133 T125

In answer to part (a) of the Question, as it was announced the weekend. in 2003 that the City of Liverpool was to be the European Can I just say, Mr President, that the Department of Capital of Culture in 2008, I do not think it is now Tourism and Leisure has, in fact, put more emphasis into appropriate, at such a late date, for me to formally extend the north-west area of the UK to try and attract visitors and congratulations. However, if an appropriate occasion arises, anybody who sees the massive signs that are being displayed I will certainly extend my congratulations personally and, in advertising terms will be very impressed with them, sir. through this Answer, I extend our good wishes, I am sure on behalf of all of us, to Liverpool on this special year. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Speaker. In answer to part (b), I can confirm that a poster campaign is currently running in a full domination in Liverpool Lime The Speaker: Mr President, will the Chief Minister Street Station, as we have in Manchester Piccadilly and confirm that, two weeks ago, when I attended the graduation Birmingham New Street Station. This is further complemented ceremonies of Liverpool University as a member of by Granada roadside and rail campaigns, as well as adverts in Liverpool University Court representing Tynwald Court, Cheshire Life and Lancashire Life, which covers the area. I took the opportunity of congratulating the newly-elected To celebrate with Liverpool, a major youth project was Lord Mayor of Liverpool, Councillor Steve Rotheram, on initiated by the Island’s Arts Council to mark the Capital of his recent election and on behalf of Tynwald Court passed Culture status of Liverpool for 2008. A youth project was on best wishes to him in his term of office during the year initiated and our own Manx Youth Orchestra joined forces of Capital of Culture for the City of Liverpool? with the Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra to give two concerts: the first at the Philharmonic Hall in Liverpool, The President: Chief Minister. which was attended by the Lord Lieutenant of Liverpool and other dignitaries, including representatives from the Island; The Chief Minister: Yes, thank you, Mr President, and and the second concert was held in the Villa Marina. I thank Mr Speaker for undertaking that task in extending As part of the project to celebrate the Capital of Culture congratulations and support to the Lord Mayor of the City of year, a piece of music entitled Dances in Time of Celebration Liverpool and, clearly, our ties with that city are well known. was specially commissioned. As ‘hands across the water’, The Isle of Man has had cultural links with them for many, the project provided a wonderful opportunity for 69 young many decades, and, of course, it has been one of our main Manx musicians to work with the older and more experienced accesses to the United Kingdom. players in the Liverpool Philharmonic Youth Orchestra. It So I thank Mr Speaker and confirm he did advise me that also brought 56 young musicians from Liverpool to the Villa and appreciate that he took that message to them, sir. Marina to enjoy the hospitality of the Isle of Man. Also, the Arts Council presented the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic The President: Mr Earnshaw. Orchestra at the Villa Marina on 12th and 13th July. In answer to part (c), I can confirm the number of people Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Mr President. travelling from Liverpool – that number being passengers Just to help the situation, I just wonder if the Chief who arrived on the Isle of Man between 1st January 2008 Minister can recall there was a substantial vote recently for and 30th June 2008 – as being 89,364. my Department, for television advertising, granted by the Thank you, Mr President. Treasury, and a huge amount… a huge proportion of that will be going focused on the north west of England. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Waft. The President: Chief Minister. Mr Waft: I thank the Minister for his reply. If I can crave your indulgence, Mr President, on the The Chief Minister: Yes, I can confirm that the Council international stage I would like to take this opportunity of Ministers – and therefore through Treasury – approved a to recognise and congratulate Mark Cavendish on his substantial investment in advertising in the north west, sir. truly remarkable wins in the Tour de France (Several Members: Hear, hear.) and, of course, Samantha Barks on her stage performances in ‘I’ll do anything’ – two fantastic ambassadors on the Island: however, would you perhaps Green energy policy agree with me, Chief Minister, that in view of the increasing Aims travel costs for tourists, it may be worthwhile considering targeting more of our resources in marketing to the north- 5. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Quirk) to ask the western area? Chief Minister:

The President: Chief Minister. Fairly loosely connected, What are the aims of the Government green energy policy sir. and what, if any, are these initiatives?

The Chief Minister: Absolutely sir. I mean I would The President: Let us move on, Hon. Members. take the opportunity on behalf of the Government and the Question 5. Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. people of the Isle of Man and all Members here, I am sure, to echo the congratulations to Mark Cavendish, Jonny Bellis Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. and to the others involved in sport and, of course, to Sam I ask the Question standing in my name. Barker, and can I say (A Member: Barks.) – Barks, sorry, Sam Barks, who I had the enjoyment of hearing singing on The President: Chief Minister.

Liverpool, European Capital of Culture – Congratulations and links with Island Green energy policy – Aims 1134 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Oral Answers

The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Mr President, the There is a general power – I think it is under the Council Government’s Strategic Plan sets out my Government’s of Ministers Act, or it is the Government Departments Act policies in respect of energy, climate change and sustainability. – to enable the Council of Ministers to direct a Department These are intended to protect our national interests, support through a procedure that is set out. economic growth, while minimising the environmental However, I think it is fair to say, it may well develop impact. The Government has a range of initiatives to help that we need to amend the Electricity Act, to give the MEA to deliver these policies, improving energy efficiency for different statutory responsibilities than they presently have. business – businesses, households and Government. But we do work closely with them. The Minister for Trade For businesses: the Department of Trade and Industry and Industry works closely with them, and in fact there is provide support to businesses seeking to reduce their an issue we are considering in the very near future from a energy use and waste. It provides financial assistance to all joint body, which includes the MEA and DTI, about a way businesses in this regard through its business support scheme. forward to progress matters that will be of energy saving or The Department of Trade and Industry has helped several efficiency improvements for the Island. major manufacturers improve energy efficiency and reduce costs. It is currently working with other sectors, notably The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. construction and retail, to achieve similar benefits. For householders: the Department of Local Government Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. and the Environment has a range of initiatives to help Can I ask the Chief Minister, his Government actually individuals to improve the energy efficiency of their brought on stream, through the Department of Local homes. Government, an energy efficiency officer: could he please For Government: the Energy Initiatives Fund helps indicate to this Court on how those talks are going on Government bodies to make capital improvements to between Government Departments, how much has been reduce energy consumption within Government’s estates used out of the fund which was put to one side for energy and comply with the ambitious targets for reduction in efficiency structures? Government’s carbon dioxide emissions set by Tynwald. Could he also indicate when we are likely to see Separately, the Department of Trade and Industry something tangible on the ground coming out to assist commissioned research into the potential for energy us, instead of using fossil fuels and to comply our Kyoto generation from renewable sources on the Island by specialist, Protocol, which you are signed up to? Aquatera, whose report was published in 2006. Since that time my Government has had preliminary discussions with The President: Chief Minister. a number of renewable energy providers and the Council of Ministers is currently reviewing how best to progress this The Chief Minister: I think one thing we have to be matter. Additionally, the Department of Trade and Industry is realistic, Mr President, in terms of what the Isle of Man issued an energy policy consultation document at the Energy may be able to achieve and certainly the Government has Expo in the Villa Marina earlier this year, which was very made it clear in the Strategic Plan, as I indicated, what we well attended. The aim of this consultation is to explore all are endeavouring to do in terms of overall strategic policies. stakeholders’ views on energy matters, from conventional They will take some time to develop. Funds have only been or alternative means of power generation to matters of made available – £3 million for Government – to look at efficiency, subsidies, grants and social schemes such as cycle energy savings for itself, this year in the budget, so that paths and car sharing. The consultation will run until 31st is only in April… March, I think it was. We have set up a August in order to include the two agricultural shows. team, which consists of officers from the MEA, DTI and It is hoped that this extended period and the open nature DoLGE, specifically to look at how we may, as Government, of the consultation will elicit a response from a large number look to invest to save energy in the longer term. That body of people. Already, responses have been received from is now meeting on a regular basis and will be making individuals and representative groups totalling over 1,000 recommendations through to the appropriate body, so we people. Once complete, a comprehensive analysis of the are co-ordinating the Departments to ensure that we have a responses will be carried out and the results used to help proper co-ordinated policy on how Government itself will formulate a detailed and sustainable energy policy for the make savings. Island for the foreseeable future. On top of that, of course, the Department of Local Thank you, Mr President. Government and Environment continues to keep an eye on its grant schemes to see if we can improve them, amend The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr them, to be more effective. So there is no lack of will; we do Watterson. have to be practical, there is only so much we can achieve, but certainly our aim is to improve and reduce the amount Mr Watterson: Thank you. of waste from energy that is actually happening throughout What powers does the Chief Minister have to direct the the Island, both in people’s homes and, of course, in business Manx Electricity Authority, in terms of providing for better and within Government. and greener sources of energy, and producing greener sources of energy, and also providing incentives for microgeneration The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. in people’s homes? Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister indicates about the think tank that is available there, that is going to produce some workings in The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. the near future. I wonder if the Chief Minister could give

Green energy policy – Aims Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1135 T125 us an indication that, before this does take place, this group organised by a Manx entity? will be able to have a seminar with Members of Tynwald, so we can attend and maybe help this committee with their The President: Mr Bell, Hon. Member to reply. endeavours. The Minister: Mr President, the Companies Registry The President: Chief Minister. currently is pursuing the registration of this company and, obviously, I will be briefed in due course, as these The Chief Minister: Well, I would say to the Hon. investigations go on further – I say pursuing this company in Member, you do not have to wait for a seminar. If you have got relation to its registration in the Isle of Man, not necessarily some ideas, write to either the Minister for Local Government in the performance of its business. and the Environment or myself, and we will pass it on to that Mr President, I am not in a position to comment on body to have a look at. its financial performance. This is more of relevance to the With the greatest respect, a seminar tells you what is going Department of Tourism and Leisure, I think, than to Treasury, on. If you have got ideas – any Member – I would say write but certainly there is a potential benefit to the Isle of Man in and let us know. We will look at it. economy, through our VAT agreement and its contribution to the overall GNP of the Island, if in fact, the company is based in the Isle of Man and profits retained within the Isle of Man. TREASURY So, in that sense, I would agree with the Hon. Member.

ACU Events Ltd The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. Date of incorporation, directors and shareholders Mr Watterson: What I was going to ask: was it an 6. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Turner, to ask the oversight, therefore, that this contract should have gone to a Minister for the Treasury: company not registered in the Isle of Man?

What date was ACU Events Ltd incorporated in the Isle The President: Minister to reply. of Man Companies Registry, who are the directors and shareholders? The Minister: Mr President, again, Treasury has not been involved in the establishment of this relationship with ACU The President: Question 6. Hon. Member, Mr Turner. Events and, certainly, as far as the company registering is concerned – which is the only interest directly the Treasury Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. has in this – the registration is being pursued by the company’s I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. officers at this moment.

The President: I call on the Minister for the Treasury, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Lowey. Mr Bell, to reply. Mr Lowey: Would the Minister not agree that the The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Thank you, Government should be working in a co-ordinated way and, as Mr President. the new Tax Strategy is fresh in all our minds, surely it should Mr President, the Isle of Man Companies Registry has no be fresh in the minds of all Departments of Government when record of a company with the name ACU Events Ltd being setting up companies in this way? or having been incorporated in the Isle of Man under the Companies Acts 1931 to 2004, the Companies Act 2006, the The President: Mr Bell. Limited Liability Companies Act 1996 or the Industrial and Building Societies Acts 1892 to 1986. There is a company The Minister: The Hon. Member is absolutely right, Mr incorporated in the United Kingdom under that name, number President, and, indeed, my officers went to great pains, I think, 5781002, incorporated on 13th April 2006. This company has to visit every Department when the new Customs and Excise not, to date, registered in the Companies Registry under part Agreement was finally negotiated to explain the implications 11 of the Companies Act 1931 as a company incorporated of that Agreement to individual Departments so that they outside the Isle of Man which has established a place of could be encouraged to ensure that business that they were business here. involved in was structured through the Island in such a way The Hon. Member may obtain further details about the that our GNP would directly benefit from it. UK company, ACU Events Ltd, from Companies House, Cardiff. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Turner.

The President: Mr Turner. Mr Turner: No further questions, sir.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. Is the Minister confident that ACU Events Ltd has been operating fully compliant here, in the run-up to, during and Low Incomes Working Group after the TT? Schemes for winter And can the Treasury Minister clarify if there is any economic benefit from the current arrangements with 7. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the Minister ACU Events or would the Island benefit from the TT being for the Treasury:

Green energy policy – Aims ACU Events Ltd – Date of incorporation, directors and shareholders Low Incomes Working Group – Schemes for winter 1136 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Oral Answers

Are the Low Incomes Working Group looking into in anticipation of the fact that we are expecting a spike in schemes to help those on low incomes this winter, inflation during the summer, particularly to do with fuel and particularly in the light of rising inflation and increases food prices. in fuel prices? The President: Hon. Member, Mr Lowey. The President: We move on then to Question 7, Hon. Members, and I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Gill. Mr Lowey: Could the Minister inform the Court: are there any low paid people on this working committee and Mr Gill: Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my who do they consult? Do they issue a report or do they just ennym. report directly to the Minister?

The President: Again, the Answer is in the hands of the The President: Minister to reply. Treasury Minister, Mr Bell. The Minister: It is a working group of officers, Mr The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, President, dealing with Social Security benefits in particular I can confirm that the Low Income Group continues to and also my Treasury officers and they report to myself. I monitor changes in fuel prices and other cost pressures and think that a report goes to the Minister of the DHSS at the is preparing proposals for the Minister for Health and Social appropriate times. Security and myself for possible implementation during the winter of 2008. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Houghton.

The President: Mr Watterson. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. Mr President, would the Treasury Minister take back Mr Watterson: Could the Treasury Minister, as a to the Council of Ministers as a matter of urgency, during matter of course – because obviously this is a cross-working the summer, that this matter will get worse, it will be very committee with Treasury and the DHSS – would the Treasury serious during the winter? Will he put… arrange to have Minister undertake to ensure that minutes of that meeting, some political level representation on that committee in the those meetings, are copied to the DHSS, as Member for lead-up into the winter; and will he plan a financial motion Social Security, please. – a financial motion – to be able to be supported by this Court for October, when they have all the statistics and figures in The President: Minister. front of them, sir?

The Minister: Mr President, the officers from the DHSS The President: Minister to reply. are actually working members of that group alongside my Treasury officers. I have to say, I understood that the minutes The Minister: Mr President, I do not need to be told did go to the officers, but, certainly, if the Hon. Member says that the situation that faces many people because of rising not, then I will certainly ensure that happens. oil and fuel prices and food (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) is difficult. We are aware of that. We anticipated that. The Isle The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. of Man has done considerably more to try and protect our people than our counterparts in the United Kingdom, who Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. have, frankly, been floundering to give assistance to their low Could the Treasury Minister advise whether or not this incomes. I think the Isle of Man’s record so far is something Low Incomes Working Group, which has been established we can be very proud of, Mr President, in anticipating the for some time, is now prepared to acknowledge fuel poverty, issues before us. and the fact that fuel poverty does in fact exist in the Isle of It is an extremely difficult time. We are, as I have said, Man and was supported by an Office of Fair Trading report Mr President, considering options and will do during the a couple of years ago? summer, and if and when it is deemed appropriate to bring proposals forward – and additionally and most importantly, Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. if we have the resources available to do that – then we will certainly be doing what the Hon. Member says. The President: Mr Bell. The President: Hon. Member for Michael. The Minister: Mr President, the working group have never denied the possibility of fuel poverty existing on the Mr Houghton: Point of order, Mr President. Island and the measures which we have taken since 2004, when I set up this committee, have, in fact, generated in The President: Hon. Member for Michael. excess of £12 million in total per year to help those on low incomes, so we have taken some extremely positive measures Mr Cannan: Mr President, will the Treasury Minister be over the last few years. The Hon. Member, I am sure, will less vague, and in order to give some comfort and reassurance recall as recently as February, when the last Budget went to those who will be facing extortionate, or very high, fuel through, that the measures which in part, at least, have been and energy bills in this winter, that there will be a statement recommended by this group, generated a further £6½ million in October at least, or certainly November, that some form of in further assistance by way of the Personal Allowance Tax assistance will be given? Does he not realise that while he has Credit, and other areas, to help those very same people, given assistance in the past – and that is very commendable

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– what has occurred in the last six months is quite exceptional acknowledge fuel poverty, will he check on the answer he in relation to oil and energy prices and that people on low has given to us this morning – what constitutes fuel poverty incomes and fixed incomes require some reassurance (Mr – so that he is sure, in fact, what it means? Houghton: Hear, hear.) before the onset of winter? Will he take a lesson from me this morning that fuel poverty is a method of calculating what is left after paying The President: Minister for the Treasury, Mr Bell. your energy bills and what is left with regard to disposable income? If you are paying a percentage set by the policy – it The Minister: Mr President, I take the point the Hon. is applied in the UK – then, in fact, you are deemed to be Member has made. I just feel disappointed the Hon. Member suffering from fuel poverty and will he take it from me that has not recognised the work we have already done to assist, his officers do not acknowledge it? In fact, they severely and I would remind the Hon. Members, just from one benefit rejected the idea of fuel poverty, seeing it as a UK Labour alone, the Personal Allowance Tax Credit, nearly 10,000 Party government policy that they did not want to look at, people, as we speak, have received cheques for £500, right were not interested in pursuing and an opportunity is being across the pension and other low income spectrum. We missed by Treasury in respect of this. are doing very tangible… taking very tangible steps, Mr President, to assist those people at this very point – not The President: Minister to reply. later on; as we speak now. These people have had these cheques over the last few weeks and I have had many people The Minister: Mr President, it always gives me great contact me, expressing their thanks for the support that the pleasure to take a lesson from the Hon. Member for… Government has given them at this time. (Laughter) (Several Members: Hear, hear.) I look forward So I hope the public do not go away with the idea that to it every month! this Government is slow in this position. We have reacted Mr President, I take on board the comments that Members very positively and anticipated the issues which are now have made. I can only reassure Members that we are working before us. very hard to do our best, in these very difficult times, to direct Mr President, I have given my undertaking – as an as much help as we can to those people on low incomes – and ongoing process anyway, these things happen. This Group that strategy will continue. and Treasury and the DHSS will be looking at these matters through the summer, monitoring the progress of prices, which we believe will continue high for some time yet, and we will be making an announcement as soon as appropriate to Depositors’ Compensation Scheme reassure people that if there is any further assistance which Decision re no change we can afford and could be made available, we will do so at the earliest moment, Mr President. 8. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Callister, to ask the Minister for the Treasury: The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. Are you satisfied that your decision to make no change Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. to the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme is the correct Could the, or is the, Shirveishagh Tashtee aware that the one, in view of the large disparity between the Isle of warning signs are on the radar now that, in the very near Man Scheme and that operating in the UK? future, there could well be further increases of between possibly 10 and 20 per cent to energy prices? Will he feed that The President: On to Question 8. Mr Callister, Hon. information back into his working party and acknowledge Member. that although there has been a lot of good work done – everyone is appreciative who has received, have been Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. the recipients of that good work – nonetheless, if the price I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. hikes continue the good work will be dissolved within those price hikes? The President: Again, I call on the Treasury Minister to reply. The President: Minister. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, The Minister: Yes, I am aware that there are potential my decision last month to keep the position of the Depositors’ price rises in the not too distant future, Mr President, for Compensation Scheme on a regular review, but not at this energy again. I can only give the Hon. Member the same time to propose any amendments to the existing scheme, was reassurance: we are watching this very carefully and, taken against a background of the banks’ views expressed in wherever possible, we will be doing our best to cushion a recent consultation on the issue. those more vulnerable people of our community from I also noted the fact that final decisions had not been excessive rises. taken in other countries in relation to the equivalent schemes, notably the United Kingdom, Jersey and Guernsey. Since The President: We are being repetitive, Hon. then there have been some further revelations about the Members. level of protection, which may be introduced in the United Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. Kingdom in the near future. However, the consultation is ongoing until 15th September 2008. Nothing has yet been Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. finalised and no legislation is enforced. When the Treasury Minister says that the officers Meanwhile, I have not still seen any proposals on the

Low Incomes Working Group – Schemes for winter Depositors’ Compensation Scheme – Decision re no change 1138 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Oral Answers matter from Jersey and Guernsey. Accordingly, I do not the FSC has with the new banks. believe that any of the reasons which I cited for not changing We have, Mr President, to take a wide number of issues the existing Depositors’ Compensation Scheme at this time into account here. It is a highly sensitive issue, this, and we have changed. However, as I have stated, Mr President, we need to be very careful that when we do decide to change the will continue to monitor developments, including whatever structure, it is for the overall benefit of the Isle of Man. proposals emerge in relation to the further coverage of deposits in relevant jurisdictions. The President: Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan. The President: Mr Callister, Hon. Member. Mr Cannan: Will the Treasury Minister acknowledge Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. that the present sum in the United Kingdom for compensation In view of the UK Chancellor’s proposal to increase the is £33,000 as against the Isle of Man, which is 75 per cent maximum figure in the UK to £50,000, will the Minister go of £20,000, in other words £15,000, and will he concur that back to the FSC, make it clear that leaving the Isle of Man those savers in the Isle of Man, who wish to have maximum depositors with a miserly £15,000 is no longer acceptable and security of their investment will be well advised to have no ask for that figure to be revised upwards in the meantime. more than £20,000 in any one financial institution in order to give them maximum protection. Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. The President: Minister Bell. The President: Treasury Minister. The Minister: Mr President, I am aware that the £33,000 The Minister: Mr President, I have answered this point figure exists in the United Kingdom at this point. I believe that the proposals which have been put forward by the it would be inappropriate of me at this stage, Mr President, UK Chancellor are only out for consultation at this point. to make any comments on deposits in the Isle of Man in the The consultation ends at the end of September and we are various banks. I can only reiterate – and as a former Treasury informed there will be a further round of consultation after Minister, I am sure the Hon. Member for Michael is aware that. The likelihood is that there will be no change in the – this is an extremely sensitive issue and it is something that United Kingdom until, at the earliest, early next year. needs to be dealt with with care and that is exactly what the On that basis, Mr President, we believe it is prudent for Financial Supervision Commission and Treasury is carrying the Isle of Man, from a number of perspectives, to assess out at the moment. what is… what changes are being proposed in the Island… in the United Kingdom and then to assess the best way the Isle of Man can respond to that, to provide the best protection that The President: Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. we can, bearing in mind the conflicting interest that Treasury have to weigh up when making such a decision. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. The Treasury Minister has mentioned twice now that this The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. is an extremely sensitive issue, very sensitive to the members of the public who are depositors in those banks. Also he Mr Watterson: Thank you. has mentioned, that a decision was taken after receiving the Can I, certainly, ask the Treasury Minister why he has not banks’ views. been proactive on this, given that we always state that we like Mr President, it is known by this Hon. Court, the banks to be ahead of the game? But furthermore, why then did he will have to bale the depositors out in a bank that falls – not go out to consultation on this issue – why did the FSC go out this Government. So why is he taking the banks’ views above to consultation on this issue, if it had absolutely no intention the interest of the public of this Island and those who are of doing anything until our competitors jumped first? depositors with their capital in Isle of Man banks. What was the point of me and others writing long letters into the FSC to say what we felt should be done with the The President: Treasury Minister. DCS, if nothing is going to happen until either England or Jersey or one of our competitors makes a decision? They are The Minister: Mr President, I have said that the banks’ not being proactive! views were one of a number of issues which were taken into account. We are not simply listening to the banks. I The President: Treasury Minister. would point out, though, Mr President, that we are also in a highly competitive situation with the other two Crown The Minister: I think they are being proactive, Mr dependencies, which currently have no bank depositors’ President. This is an extremely sensitive issue and not one protection scheme at all and we have to be very careful of which I think merits a knee-jerk reaction, in spite of the the conflicting interests which apply in this area. publicity that is being given to it. Treasury and the FSC in particular are more concerned I was not aware that the Hon. Member had written to than anyone to ensure the good reputation of the Isle of Man the FSC. That had not been brought to my attention, Mr and to protect the investment of individuals using the Isle President, but the FSC, as a matter of course, has regular of Man banking system. And I am sure that once we have meetings and discussions with the banking fraternity, and a clear idea of exactly how the scheme is going to work in this is one issue which has been raised with them. It was not the United Kingdom, we will be looking very closely at a specific consultation process, as I think perhaps the Hon. those details to see how appropriate it would be to extend Member understands, but it was an ongoing dialogue that the scheme on the Isle of Man.

Depositors’ Compensation Scheme – Decision re no change Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1139 T125

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cannan. Mr President, section 3(1)(f) of the Treasury Act 1985 provides that: Mr Cannan: Without being repetitive, Mr President, will the Treasury Minister acknowledge that while it is sensitive ‘It shall be the duty of the Treasury:’ to the banks, the Treasury also has a duty of care to the people of the Isle of Man and those who entrust their savings into the amongst other things, financial system of the Isle of Man… that the best protection that they can expect at the moment is to have no more than ‘to give directions to designated bodies… as to accounting and £20,000 in any one financial institution? economies’ The Act requires a designated body to comply with such a The President: It is repetitive, Hon. Member. direction and includes a Statutory Board within the definition Minister. of designated body. Financial Regulation 17 requires, amongst other things, a Statutory Board undertaking a capital The Minister: Mr President, I can only repeat; I have project or scheme to comply with the procedure notes for answered this point. capital schemes issued by the Treasury and for the time being in force. Mr Cannan: You have not answered it. So, Mr President, on the assumption that Financial Regulation 17 has been validly given, pursuant to section The Minister: Treasury and the FSC are very acutely 3(1)(f) of the 1985 Act, it is my opinion that the Manx aware of the need to protect the depositors on the Island and Electricity Authority as a Statutory Board, is required to our reputation, and that is what we are doing at the moment comply with the Regulation when undertaking a capital in a very difficult and sensitive situation. project or scheme. The President: Final supplementary, Mr Callister. The President: Hon. Member for Michael. Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Cannan: Just to reconfirm – I thank the Attorney Is the Minister aware of the considerable concern of small General for his legal ruling – just to confirm the thing, savers on the Isle of Man, whose life savings are often in a that if no directions are given to a Statutory Board – Manx single bank, (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) and that they feel Electricity Authority or any other Statutory Board – then that a large proportion, perhaps, of their savings will be at that Board can, with immunity, carry out capital procedures risk if something is not done to increase the figure that the without recognising the Financial Regulations. Is that Island uses? What comfort can he give to them today? correct, sir? Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. The President: Mr Attorney. The President: Minister. The Attorney General: No, Mr President, and I think that the consequence of the advice I have given is that the The Minister: Mr President, I have already answered Manx Electricity Authority, as a Statutory Board, must that question. comply with Financial Regulations on the assumption that those Regulations have been validly given.

HM ATTORNEY GENERAL LOCAL GOVERNMENT Manx Electricity Authority AND THE ENVIRONMENT Adherence to Financial Regulations Upper Pulrose houses 11. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask HM Redevelopment progress Attorney General:

Can you confirm that there is no requirement for the Manx 12. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Malarkey) Electricity Authority (Electricity Act 1996 and amended to ask the Minister for Local Government and the 2001) to adhere to Government Financial Regulations Environment: when managing capital or revenue prospects? What progress is being made with the redevelopment of The President: We go on then, Hon. Members, to Question the Upper Pulrose houses? 11. I call on the Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan. The President: Question 12. Member for Douglas South, Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Question standing Mr Malarkey. in my name, sir. Mr Malarkey: Mr President, I stand to ask the Question The President: Mr Attorney to reply. standing in my name, sir.

The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. The President: On this occasion, I call on the Minister

Depositors’ Compensation Scheme – Decision re no change Manx Electricity Authority – Adherence to Financial Regulations Upper Pulrose houses – Redevelopment progress 1140 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Oral Answers for Local Government and the Environment, Mr Shimmin, The President: Mr Shimmin, Minister. to reply. The Minister: Yes, Mr President, the meeting is The Minister for Local Government and the scheduled for early September, we are keeping the joint Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. pressure on ourselves with Douglas Corporation and, indeed, I am grateful to the Member for South Douglas, Mr we all share the same aspirations that the Hon. Member is Malarkey, for asking this Question, and it gives me the representing: South Douglas, Mr Malarkey and Mr Cretney opportunity to say that my Department has worked closely and, indeed, the Corporation people. We need to get these with Douglas Corporation, and indeed my good friend, houses built and nobody knows that more graphically than the Member for South Douglas, Mr Cretney, for a number the people in my Department, sir. of years now to progress the redevelopment of Upper Pulrose. The Corporation’s business case for redevelopment was accepted by my Department and Treasury back in April Hillside Avenue council houses 2007. The Corporation submitted their outline proposals Installation of central heating for redevelopment in September 2007, and the go-ahead to progress the design stage was given, with Treasury 13. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Malarkey) concurrence, in October 2007. This included demolition to ask the Minister for Local Government and the and rebuilding of the Inner Ring dwellings. Initially, the Environment: intention was to refurbish those dwellings. My Department also increased the provision within the local authority capital What progress is being made with regard to the budget, from £10 million to £12 million, to ensure that the installation of central heating to Hillside Avenue council Corporation’s redevelopment aspirations were adequately houses? funded. As well as demolition and redevelopment of the Inner Ring dwellings, the proposals include redesign of the road The President: Question 13. Mr Malarkey, please. layout, improved parking provision, landscaping and other environmental improvements. Further upgrading will also Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. be carried out to the occupied dwellings on the Outer Ring, I stand to ask the Question standing in my name. which were modernised between 1987 and 2004. Mr President, work on site started earlier this year The President: Again, the Answer is in the hands of the with the first phase of demolition of 26 Inner Ring houses. Minister for Local Government. However, the design stage of the redevelopment proposals has not progressed as expected. Therefore, a meeting was The Minister for Local Government and the held earlier this month between my Department and the Environment (Mr Shimmin): Mr President, similarly, Mr Corporation to clarify the position regarding the scheme. Cretney and Mr Malarkey have both been pushing for a It was agreed that Douglas Corporation will review their long time on behalf of their constituents in this area. I would proposals and advise the Department of their future plans advise that the Department has been working with Douglas for the redevelopment of Upper Pulrose by early September Corporation, as well as other housing authorities, over the of this year. Clearly, any significant change from the original past four years to undertake a programme of central heating approved scheme will have an impact on both scheme costs installation to all public sector dwellings. This work is funded and delivery timescales. My Department will continue to by my Department as part of the capital planned maintenance work with the Corporation to ensure that the redevelopment programme for local authority housing. progresses as quickly as possible. I am pleased to advise that Douglas Corporation has Lastly, I would like to point out that the Corporation has installed central heating to over 1,000 dwellings. This undertaken other packages of work to the existing houses in includes locations such as Spring Valley, Upper Pulrose, Upper Pulrose. Last year, loft insulation was upgraded to all Anagh Coar and Willaston. The total capital investment for dwellings and full central heating was installed to the Outer Douglas to date exceeds £4½ million. Central heating for Ring dwellings. These works were funded from the planned the Hillside estate is part of the programme. However, the maintenance programme. proposal submitted by the Corporation included significant Mr President, I hope this information is sufficient to additional capital costs, which my Department and Treasury answer the Question raised by the Hon. Member. were unable to support. In June this year, the Corporation was asked to revisit their proposals in light of the Treasury The President: Mr Malarkey. comments. The Corporation has been informed it needs to put forward a revised funding request. My Department Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. I would like will continue to work with the Corporation to ensure that to thank the Minister for his Answer. the excellent progress on the central heating programme Does the Minister have any sort of timescale on when continues, and in particular that central heating for the we could hope to see some rebuilding in Upper Pulrose Hillside estate is carried out as soon as possible. rather than demolition, as it seems to be dragging out quite considerably? I understand that September is the next The President: Mr Malarkey, Hon. Member Douglas consultation. Can I ask the Minister to try and push Douglas South. Corporation along on this issue? Otherwise, we are going to be sitting here in another two years’ time, and be asking Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President and I thank the the same questions. Minister again for blowing the trumpet of DoLGE and all

Upper Pulrose houses – Redevelopment progress Hillside Avenue council houses – Installation of central heating Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1141 T125 the work they are doing for all the houses. Can the Minister of Council for giving me the opportunity of explaining. confirm, with regard to Hillside Avenue, that the hold up on There are differential rates charged for the level of services this particular site is down… is due purely to the 16 houses provided in the properties in the public sector area. Indeed, on Hillside Terrace, where the Treasury Minister… or the as we are trying to roll out the initiatives of cavity wall and Treasury Department has refused to pay the additional £500 loft insulation, which actually reduces the expenditure… For for the 16 houses a total capital of £8,000 to have the boilers all those Hon. Members who were talking earlier about the put outside and have asked Douglas Council to put gas cost of fuel, we are doing more to actually make sure that boilers in their place, which they have refused. there is less expenditure on carbon fuels because of the loft Would the Minister agree with me that, on a site of insulation and cavity wall insulation. The payments that are 83 total dwellings, there is no argument about 68 of these increased in the rent paid by those public sector tenants is a dwellings, that we are now in the middle of summer, we nominal amount, but what we are talking about in regard to are heading for the winter, there is no central heating up in the Question this morning is additional capital expenditure Hillside Avenue in many of these houses and for an £8,000 above and beyond – (Interjection) The Hon. Member can capital cost, we are holding up a total of 83 dwellings from continue to go for £8,000. If he would like to come and join having central heating this winter? me in my Department, we will explain some of the wider implications of the costs involved in my Department, sir. The President: Minister. The President: Hon. Member. Mr Quirk. The Minister: I can share the frustration and it is quite easy for all Hon. Members to jump to the support of Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. their constituents. However, there are some fundamental Could I just ask the Minister for DoLGE, the power is principles of finance involved in this and the same Hon. in his hands about the pointing exercise for when additional Members will be ensuring that, despite the fact that we are benefits are put into local authority homes. A number of upgrading these properties, we are not allowed to actually local authorities have instigated, in years gone past, that the put forward any increase in the costs of the rent to pay for value when the central heating is put in, maybe is artificially some of those capital expenditures and therefore the issue too low and should be increased, because – would he not is one which might sound simple; it is something which is agree with me – sometimes it does not actually cover the already evidenced by Government with the £4½ million we maintenance of the unit, never mind the replacement of the have put in place for these facilities in the town’s public unit? sector housing and yes, we share the frustration. But there has to be a discipline, both within this Chamber and within The President: Mr Shimmin. the Corporation, to ensure that we follow good practice and not always give the local constituents what they might like, The Minister: Mr President, we are getting into but actually is at the taxpayers’ expense. something which almost sounds like we are on different sides in this. The Isle of Man should be extremely proud The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen. of its public-sector stock. It for years failed to invest in this and, in recent years, my predecessors have fought hard Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. and the Council of Ministers before my day have achieved Can the Minister confirm that it is his Department’s enormous improvements, quite rightly, for the people of the policy to ensure that all local authority housing has central Island. We know that we have massive delays in actually heating? As he may be aware, there are a number of houses housing our people and we have a waiting list, which is in my constituency still on coal. shameful and the Hon. Member for South Douglas, and others, quite rightly pushes to try and get houses built for The President: Minister. the public-sector area. My Department has a policy which I have outlined: we The Minister: Without wishing to go around the are pushing forward major improvements in the energy- constituencies of the Isle of Man, Mr President, yes, I think saving insulation of those properties and although there the evidence is already there that my Department have moved is an increase, Hon. Members are aware that, for years away from the less efficient and more polluting coal fires, now we have been increasing the cost of public-sector and the programme continues. If the Hon. Member has an rents by 5 per cent. That is above inflation year-on-year. issue, he can take it up with my Department in order to try The difficulty is that those Hon. Members have also seen and see where they are on the scheme, Mr President. a rise in private-sector rental increasing by a much larger percentage. Any attempt to try and increase public-sector The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. rent is disadvantageous for those living there, but as we have got such a long waiting list, there is a disparity between Mr Lowey: Could I just asked the Minister, would those living in council housing and those living in private, he reconsider his Answer when he said that by installing rented accommodation. That is the balance that we have got central heating they are not allowed to put up the rent? Isn’t to try and deal with and we need to try and make sure that public sector housing based on a points system, and the rent we provide more houses, rather than fight about some of the is increased when they install central heating because the services provided. points go up? The President: Mr Houghton, Hon. Member. The President: Minister. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister: Yes. I am grateful to the Hon. Member The Hon. Member answered the question.

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Kerbside collection service had with the review, is done by your Department, and would Costing and accounting he not agree with me it would be better done externally? How much value for money do the ratepayers get out? How 15. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Quirk) to ask the can it be tested? Minister for Local Government and the Environment: The President: Mr Shimmin. (a) What is the detailed costing of the £280,000 that has been given to your Department for the kerbside The Minister: I am not quite sure where to start, Mr collection service; President. Over the last session of this Court the Hon. (b) why was this not put out to tender; and Member has continued to ask a series of deep, probing (c) who will be testing the open book accounting and questions on the issue of waste and recycling. I have said, any review? I think, in this Court before that I made the statement to Onchan, Braddan and Douglas that we would be introducing The President: Okay. In that case, Hon. Members, we a kerbside collection scheme. If they could agree amongst will turn the page to Question 15 and I call on the Hon. themselves to do it, it would carry out the functions of a Member, Mr Quirk. local authority. However, we had an imperative that we needed to introduce it and, therefore, if they were not able Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. to agree among themselves, I would then impose it upon I wish to ask the Question standing in my name. them. If that had been the route we would have gone down, we would have had a tender process for people outside of The President: Again, I call on the Minister for Local local authorities. Government, Mr Shimmin. The Hon. Member, as an officer of a local authority and as a member of a different local authority, should be well The Minister for Local Government and the aware of the complaints of local authorities, that Government Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. takes away functions of local authorities. The Hon. Member The £280,000 revenue allocated to the Department will seems more keen on actually removing more functions than cover the staffing costs for operating the Phase 1 Kerbside I am from local authorities. We have actually got three local Collection Scheme. This requires three kerbside collection authorities combined to become more efficient, to work drivers, six kerbside collection loading crew, and one Scheme together – as they have previously on the civic amenity site. operation supervisor. Therefore they are neighbours who have worked together In answer to part (b), subject to the provisions of section previously, who have negotiated this and, no, I do not think 17(4)(a) of the Local Government Act 1985, there is no it appropriate for the open book accounting to go outside requirement for a competitive tender for the Phase 1 Kerbside my Department, because it is my Department which has Collection Scheme. Each local authority is responsible responsibility and we have many responsibilities. We are the for carrying out its own functions. Local authorities can, regulator and therefore it is appropriate that it is us. however, with the consent of the Department, appoint another If the Hon. Member would like to come and join my local authority to discharge functions on their behalf. For the Department, or even talk to us occasionally, I would be operation of the Phase 1 Kerbside Scheme, Braddan Parish grateful to explain this to him. Commissioners and Onchan District Commissioners will be appointing Douglas Corporation to discharge part of their The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. collection function on their behalf. Under section 67(5) of the Public Health Act 1990, the Department will enter into an Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. agreement with Douglas Corporation for the discharge of the Could I ask the Minister that… He may not think this, Scheme, which involves the collection of certain recyclable but I am being helpful to him, (Laughter) because if you are materials under section 65 of the Public Health Act 1990. ever in front of the Value for Money Committee or the Public In answer to the final Question, my Department will be Accounts Committee, surely the questions that I have asked monitoring all the costs and income generated from this today will assist you in the future. Scheme and reporting back to the three local authorities And on your statement, I would not agree with you that involved in Phase 1. I have been disruptive. I have been more than helpful and generous to you – would not the Minister agree with that? The President: Mr Quirk. The President: Minister. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Minister for his Answers, but could he indicate The Minister: No, Mr President – surprisingly! to me… We are quite well aware of the costs for staffing, as (Laughter) the adverts have been placed in the paper already, equating to Of the nine Questions in Tynwald, representing 37 £283,000 per year, but could he indicate to me and this Hon. different subparts, the eight Questions in the House of Keys, Court what the other £90,000 is for? Is that the fuel costs? the 23 subparts, which collectively is enormously more than With reference to (b), does his Department avoid the rest of the House put together, with only one attempt Financial Regulations? I just wondered whether he could where we had a meeting – which I accept did become a little clarify, although he is quoting the Local Government Act bit lively (Laughter) and therefore he has not been back on that. since, surprisingly – the disruption that has been caused… Finally, is he happy then, to this Hon. Court, that the and the repetition of the same work has been enormously open-book accounting, which was in the big presentation you disruptive to a very small but dedicated team of officers,

Kerbside collection service – Costing and accounting Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1143 T125 who are constantly demoralised by answering the same and drainage, who will be coming forward this afternoon, questions, time after time after time, when the majority of through his Department, for large millions of pounds’ worth this Court have voted in favour of a scheme which we believe of taxpayers’ money, which equally anybody could glibly the public, the Department and Government are strongly in turn around and say ‘can you guarantee you are getting value favour of – yet the Hon. Member still continues to believe for money?’. he is helping me. We believe we have done everything professionally to achieve that for the ratepayers and taxpayers of the Isle of The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. Man. I believe every Hon. Member of this Court attempts to do the same, whatever their responsibility may be, and if Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. we get it wrong, we are accountable for that. But I think it is Will the Minister not accept that it is the place of Hon. unworthy to be turning around and wanting guarantees that Members who are elected up into the House of Keys to everything is value for money, otherwise we could spend probe and test Government Ministers and that he should the next six days talking about IRIS and the Hon. Member’s not regard the quantity or the quality of questions received responsibility in areas of drainage. from the Member for Onchan as some sort of target for battling with? In fact, he should welcome the fact that he is being tested. And if what he said is true, that officers are demoralised because they have been answering the same HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY questions time and time again, in that case, therefore, why does not he refer the Hon. Member to Hansard, where he Drug and Alcohol Unit can look up the answer for himself? Progress on full operation

The President: Hon. Members, I am sure Mr Quirk can 16. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Malarkey) to defend himself. Mr Shimmin. ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:

The Minister: I am sure that would go down well if any What progress is being made with regard to opening fully Minister started answering questions in that way! the Drug and Alcohol Unit? The Hon. Member is quite right that it does gain a high level of publicity for the questioner and indeed myself as The President: Question 16. Mr Malarkey. Minister to be constantly taking up the time of this Court dealing with the minutiae and the details of this. I would be Mr Malarkey: Mr President, I stand to ask the Question more than happy if the Hon. Member would refer it to the standing in my name, sir. Scrutiny Committee or to the Public Accounts Committee. At least we would then have a group of people who were The President: I call on the Minister for Health and independent in this matter looking at it and dealing with it Social Security, Mr Teare, to reply. properly, as opposed to somebody who came from a position of being a local authority commissioner, where he already The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr had a long interest in this matter and is continuing that for a Teare): Thank you, Mr President. further 18 months, when he is representing now the Island The Drug and Alcohol Unit currently houses the and not just a local authority. community Drug and Alcohol team who provide an excellent service. However, the inpatient beds are not yet operational. The President: Final try, Mr Quirk. (Laughter) The Department is keen to give a clear indication concerning the opening of the inpatient unit at the earliest opportunity Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. and is currently giving consideration to the costs and staffing How do you know I haven’t? That is the question. requirements of the unit to ensure that it is sustainable in the Can I just ask the Minister – the final question to him, long term and in the light of competing demands on the finite really: it is a duty upon Government and Government resources available to the Department. Departments to seek value for money and to test those. Just can I finally ask the Minister a personal question to him: on The President: Mr Malarkey. this particular subject matter, can he reassure me that we are getting value for money? Are the taxpayers – never mind the Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. ratepayers – getting value for money? Would the Minister not agree with me that this Question I have written or brought up several times, since becoming The President: Minister. a Member of this Court and I seem to be getting the same answer come back? Would the Minister not agree with me The Minister: Mr President, as Minister of an interesting that, in the Chief Minister’s Strategic Plan statement last and lively Department, I have full confidence in the delegation October, he made a statement to this Court that said that he authorities that I give out to my political colleagues and the will be commissioning at an early date, the new rehabilitation officers who run those areas. This matter has been a major and detox unit ? We are now two years into a five-year term: distraction away from that, but I can honestly say that those this unit has been waiting to be equipped and manned for of us working in Government, with a political responsibility, some four years that I am aware of and still lying empty. such as Mr Butt in this matter or myself as Minister, bear So I am asking the Minister, what does he consider to be a some heavy responsibility – none more so than, can I say, reasonable time and we are almost there but we are going the Hon. Member who I believe is responsible for IRIS nowhere?

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The President: Minister. number of people on this Island? Would he not agree that, in prioritising his Department’s expenditure, he must take The Minister: I can appreciate the Hon. Member’s account of what is actually happening here and now? concern about the time and I do share that with him and I would, once again, reiterate that I am fully aware and support The President: Mr Teare. the commitment given at page 15 of the Government’s plan. That, as I say, does have my support. However, there The Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for his is another facet of this and that is the funding issue, sir. To comments. I have made it clear that I do support this and it bring it in 24/7 would incur additional costs of over £400,000 is certainly one of the major priorities of the Department, a year – in fact, it is nearer £500,000 a year. At the moment and that I am quite happy to follow through, sir. that is funds that the Department patently does not have. I have asked my colleagues to work up a proposal to see The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. what can be done, but it is not an easy conundrum, sir. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Waft. Will the Minister acknowledge that one of the biggest policy fiascos of the DHSS in recent decades was to close the Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. original Alcohol Unit at Ballamona Hospital? The in-patient Appreciating what the Minister just said, would he not unit, which had a considerable amount of success with its acknowledge that perhaps we are restoring what previously in-patient care, was one of the best units in the UK. Would was acceptable for residential accommodation to deal with he further acknowledge that he has the specialist staff with drugs and alcohol in the past, and perhaps we are trying to the skills basis required to meet these specialist needs that catch up with what was happening previously, albeit to a he is talking about now, and would he give the staff some greater degree of professionalism? credit and look at ways of treating people on Island, using our own local talent more and more, which would save his The President: Minister. Department more and more?

The Minister: Mr President, I have once again The President: Mr Teare. reiterated my commitment to open as soon as possible, but unfortunately it is difficult to stretch the budget – which is a The Minister: I said in my original Answer, sir, that the very full and generous budget, I have to say – to everything staff do provide an excellent service, one that I do value. I have met the staff; I have been round the unit. There will be that the Department is thought… it is thought that the additional staffing requirements to run it 24/7; we just cannot Department should provide. run it all day for 365 days of the year with the existing staff load. We would have to recruit extra staff and that would The President: Mr Malarkey. mean that we would have to advertise. I have said that I have asked the Department to work up Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. proposals. I have seen an initial set of proposals, as this Hon. Could the Minister revisit the figures that he is quoting Court would expect. I have asked for further information. in the Court today. When we brought these figures up less When that is available, I will certainly see what can be than… I would think last October sitting, on the same done, sir. matter, the costs, if I remember rightly, were £500,000 to equip, train and get the unit working, and the running costs The President: Mr Speaker. of the unit would be approximately £300,000, but we were already spending somewhere in the regional of £180,000 to The Speaker: Mr President, as the Minister of the day send people off Island. who obtained Tynwald approval for the relocation of the So the additional cost to the Department is only in the Drug and Alcohol Unit to the Ard Aalin site, I was put in region of about £120,000, where we could treat a lot more the regrettable position of explaining why it was that there people on the Island, which would be of greater benefit to was not sufficient funding to staff up the essential residential the Island as a whole. component. Could I ask the Minister whether that element of funding and that bid proposal remains at the top of the The President: Mr Teare, Minister for Health. priority list within Social Services for extra funding, and indeed whether, within the Department, the bid for new The Minister: It is – I agree with the Hon. Member – from funding for essential new developments is still cast in terms some perspectives, a very straightforward proposal; but it has of gold standard and silver standard in terms of priority? If to be recognised that not everybody who is sent off the Island it is, is this residential component for Drug and Alcohol at for treatment at the moment could be treated on the Island. the top of the gold standard bid to Treasury in the budgetary Some of their needs are very complex and very specialised, process for Social Services? which can only be addressed in highly specialised units, which we would never be able to provide, sir. The President: Mr Teare, Minister for Health and Social Security. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. The Minister: The prioritisation system certainly Mr Lowey: Would the Minister take on board – and I remains unchanged, sir, and I have made it clear that this am sure he heard and read the report of the coroner, sadly, in is a very high priority from my, and the Department’s, recent cases – about the dependence on alcohol by a growing perspective.

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Long-term residential care I ask if the Minister will learn from his past mistakes Rescinding restriction – for example, the disastrous fluoridation campaign – and realise that if he returns to this misguided idea of ending entry 17. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Callister, to ask to residential homes, it will be met with the same adverse the Minister for Health and Social Security: reaction, and I believe he should abandon it.

In view of the adverse public reaction to your decision The President: Minister. to restrict long-term residential care, will you rescind the policy forthwith? The Minister: I was waiting for the fluoridation issue to come up, Mr President, and the Hon. Member of Council The President: Question 17. Hon. Member of Council, has not disappointed me! Mr Callister. I did exactly what I said I would do there, and I think, really, it is disappointing that the Department has not been Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. given credit for that. (Mr Earnshaw: Hear, hear.) I beg to ask the Question standing in my name. Now, turning to the resource centres, we have listened. I still feel that this is the right way forward. It will give us The President: Again, the Answer is in the hands of the flexibility to provide respite care. There is an increasing Mr Teare. demand for respite care and it will enable us to support more people for longer in the community. And with the increasing The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr bulge, as it were, between now and 2026, when there will be Teare): Thank you, Mr President. a 62-per-cent increase, as I recall, in those aged over 65 living I would, firstly, like to point out that the decision was on the Island, we need to have a look at alternative ways of revised before this Question was put down, sir. As the Hon. addressing the issue, and I feel that this is a good long-term Member knows, the restriction of long-term residential care response. We need to think beyond the next three years. We has been deferred, due to financial pressures outside our need to think beyond the next election, sir. We need to think control, affecting other parts of the Department. We will about the needs of successive generations. do… we will be developing services within the community to support older people at home as resources become available, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. to increase the range and choice of care available. The Department is still fully committed to the policy and Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. vision of expanding community-based service provision. Will the Minister admit that this is, according to his letter This will offer more flexibility and better meet the needs to all Members, just a policy deferral? Will he agree that this and expectations of this section of our community. Service matter will come back? users and their representatives have made it clear that they Will he also answer the question, Eaghtyrane… He says support and they welcome that intention. However, after all care agencies are in favour, but can he answer the one if he listening to the representation put forward from various asks all care agencies if they shut down three of the biggest groups and individuals and taking into account the concerns homes in the Isle of Man, that they would agree with that, about the potential for cost increases affecting the Health and would he comment on that? Services Division, the Department has taken the decision to And further to that, Eaghtyrane, the final part of the defer the changes and to reopen our three resource centres supplementary is this: does he really think that the public to long-term admissions. of this Island believe him when he says about dispersing Representations have been made to the Department that resources to the community, that he can realistically supply it should defer this particular measure to allow more time for the range of services supplied in a residential home to a frail forward development of support services in the community. elderly person forced to stay in their own home, because of Many people have been supportive of the forward-thinking this policy, 24/7? policy and have pressed for a thorough implementation of the strategy to diversify the range of care and support. Most The President: Minister. people and organisations recognise that it is much better for the client if they can be supported in their own home, as part Mr Henderson: Answer: no. of the local community, for as long as possible, but that for some who require 24/7 help, this will not be feasible and The Minister: Could I refer the Hon. Member to my residential care will be necessary. original Answer, and, just to refresh his somewhat short-term We will implement a long-standing policy to gradually memory, there will be some, and I quote: rectify the balance between residential care and community- based support to meet the needs of increasing numbers of ‘Most people and organisations recognise that it is much better for the client if they can be supported in their own home as part of the local older people. community for as long as possible, but that for some, who require 24/7 help, this will not be feasible, and residential care will be necessary.’ The President: Hon. Member, Mr Callister. So I feel I have dealt with that in my original Answer, Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. sir. I think the submission of the Question and the press Coming back to agreement, we have support of care release that came out – the information that came out – were organisations; they have been very helpful to us. Once again, virtually simultaneous, so I am not going to argue that matter. sir, could I reiterate that the Department is not shutting down I only now ask the Question to be helpful to the Minister. homes.

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A Member: Yes, it is! consider how we are going to cope with the demographics of the future years and coping with the demand for care in The Minister: We are re-organising the way that we our elderly population, will the Minister consider, when he deliver a service so we can deliver that service to more people. resurrects this policy – as he has indicated that he will do I wonder what the Hon. Member’s reaction would be if, for – making it clearer to Members and the population at large example, he is approached by a family who are looking for how he intends to staff the community element of the service, respite care, and the Department says, ‘Sorry, we cannot do it, because I believe there was a lack of clarity in the proposals, because we don’t have the space available in our homes.’ which have recently been curtailed, as to how, in fact, the service was going to be delivered. The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. I did accept the policy, and I think Hon. Members have got to begin to recognise that it takes some years to provide Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. services. We have had the example given in respect of the Can I just ask the Minister, when he did say, in his drug and alcohol provision, and that unless we take steps statement ‘we are not shutting down homes’… Could I ask now to look ahead to how we are going to deliver this, him to comment on Glenside, why a number of patients were would the Minister confirm that we are going to be in an moved round, about 10 days ago. The answer given to some extremely difficult position in terms of both staffing and of the families was they were shutting down part of the ward infrastructure? or the place they were in, when these people had been there for some years. Can I ask him about that. The President: Mr Teare, Minister for Health.

The President: Mr Teare. The Minister: I would take the Hon. Member of Council’s comments, certainly, on board and I will consider them very The Minister: It would have been helpful, sir, for an carefully. operational matter, if the Hon. Member had come to me and Certainly, staffing issues and the way we communicate I could have addressed it. I am quite happy to talk to him to our staff are a major focus for the Department. The offline, sir, to go through that issue. Department did discuss the proposals with the JNC – the Joint Negotiating Committee – in April, and we have discussed it The President: Mr Braidwood, Hon. Member. with the staff. But if Hon. Members feel that it would help their understanding, when the Department is in a position to Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. move forward, for us to brief in more chapter and verse, as Can I, first of all, thank the Minister for his prompt it were, then I would be entirely comfortable with that, Mr response to my request to send a letter out to all those residents President. who are in long term to reassure them that they would not be affected. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Lowey. Secondly, the Minister has also mentioned about respite care, and I must admit that I do get a lot of requests from Mr Lowey: Would the Minister not agree that the those people who look after their elderly relatives that they professional advice that we have received is flawed, in need somewhere to go for respite care. (Interjection by Mr the sense that it was without consultation with those being Henderson) affected? Also, could he confirm that, compared to the UK, the Would the Minister also agree with me that the suggestion number of residents who are in long-term residential care is that perhaps we are oversubscribed with residential homes is about 20 per cent more than the UK, and if that 20 per cent far from the truth? There are many people waiting to get into were based on community-based support, this would then a residential home now. (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) They give room for the respite care? are not going to disappear or be satisfied with a half-hour or an hour position, unless they are going to work them seven The President: Mr Teare. days a week, 24 hours/seven, which I doubt – they will be given an hour at most, and then it will be a 10-hour day for The Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for his helpful those people. That is not a satisfactory substitute. question. It may be as a partial, mid-house approach, but the point I Actually, I am afraid that the figures are much higher, am making is would the Minister not agree that his Department sir. It is approximately 50 per cent higher in residential and has shot itself in the foot, by announcing the policy without nursing care on the Island than we would expect to see if discussing with anybody and then having to withdraw it? It we compared it on a per-head-of-population basis with the is not good for the Department or for the people. United Kingdom. The Department is trying to deliver its services in a more The President: Minister. flexible manner to provide further services to more people, and I think, really, that is what we should be endeavouring The Minister: I did make it clear that I was, in effect, to do. By moving care back into the community, whilst confronted with unexpected budgetary pressures, which could acknowledging it will not be possible to keep everybody in not be foreseen and were outside the Department’s control. their own homes, I think it is a very positive step forward. To move forward on this issue would require approximately £400,000 just to get it started. And, really, it is difficult to get The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Christian. it. Now, the inference from the Hon. Member of Council’s question is that there is no capacity in the sector on the Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Island: there is capacity in the sector across the Island. There Whilst commending the Minister for looking ahead to are vacant beds down and in… It might be in the private

Long-term residential care – Rescinding restriction Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1147 T125 sector: certainly, I concede that, but there is accommodation Social workers available, so I think, really, that the strategy is sound. It was Accountability; complaints measures well supported, and I have had many phone calls, both in my office and at home, pressing me to move on as quickly 18. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the as possible, sir. Minister for Health and Social Security:

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Callister. (a) Who are social workers accountable to for their practice; Mr Callister: I think I have heard the Minister say a (b) what complaint and remedial measures are open couple of times now that the various care agencies were to a person who has been unfairly treated by your in support. Could he then explain the article in the Isle of Department’s social workers? Man Examiner of 1st July, headed ‘Age Concern criticises DHSS change in policy’, where the chief executive, The President: In that case, Hon. Members, we move Penny Creighton, of Age Concern, says that there was no on to Question 18. consultation whatsoever with them, despite the fact that there Hon. Member, Mr Gill. is a quote, that Mr Teare said in Manx Independent that they had the ‘support and backing of Age Concern’? Mr Gill: Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. The President: Mr Teare. The President: Again, I call on Mr Teare to reply. The Minister: I have clarified that with Age Concern and they do support the Department’s direction of travel, sir. The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr Teare): Mr President, turning to part (a), social workers, as The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for civil servants, are employed by the Civil Service Commission Michael. and are accountable by their line management for their practice. This is monitored by regular supervision with their Mr Cannan: Will the Minister understand that he line manager and their performance is assessed through the would not be in all this trouble if he had originally sought Civil Service Performance Appraisal Scheme. the concurrence of Tynwald (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) The Social Services Division has adopted the General for his policy – Social Care Council Code of Practice and existing social workers are encouraged to register with the General Social Mr Henderson: Up to Tynwald. Care Council, which is the regulatory body for social work. All new social workers are required to be registered as a Mr Cannan: – and will he give an undertaking, before condition of employment. he introduces major policies in the future, whether it is in The Social Services… Sorry, turning to part (b), Mr regard to old people, or fluoridation, or whatever it is, that President, the Social Services Division has a complaints he has the proper demographic authority to carry out his process in place, which has an independent element. If a policies, and that is through the support and the mandate person feels they have cause for complaint, they can use the of Tynwald? complaints process. In addition, if the social worker they are concerned about is registered with the General Social The President: Minister Teare. Care Council, an individual can also address the complaint to that Council, sir. The Minister: I have previously mentioned that I would discuss issues with Hon. Members and I hope that Hon. The President: Mr Gill, Hon. Member for Rushen. Members will take the opportunity, this coming Friday, to participate in a DHSS briefing of the issues and options, sir. Mr Gill: Can I welcome the move to ensure that registration of new social workers is taking place and also The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. the encouragement of existing social workers to register in the same manner. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Would the Minister be kind enough to advise us just how Could the Shirveishagh answer the question from the much encouragement is given and what detriment there is Hon. Member for Michael: will he be prepared to bring the for social workers who, perhaps, are guilty of unacceptable matter, next time round, to Tynwald? Never mind a Tynwald practice and decline to register? What is the Department Members’ briefing behind closed doors in secrecy: will he going to do about those people, sir? bring it to Tynwald for debate? Further, Eaghtyrane, will he confirm or deny that the The President: Mr Teare. care agencies he has been referring to in this Court are in agreement with the closure of long-term care residential The Minister: The Department has pending legislation, beds? He is giving us the impression they are. I would like sir, which would give us the vires, if it was enacted by the him to clarify that, Eaghtyrane. branches, to insist that existing workers were registered.

The President: Minister. The President: Mr Gill.

The Minister: We are not talking about closure of homes, Mr Gill: Could the Minister advise us on an element that sir, and I think we have been down this road many times. is signally lacking from his answers: what political oversight

Long-term residential care – Rescinding restriction Social workers – Accountability; complaints measures 1148 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Oral Answers and control is there of social work practice and social work managers have consulted with and engaged staff, service users malpractice? and their carers, voluntary, community and faith organisations, in the process of refining this approach. The President: Minister. In April we announced a range of new services that would be available from the Resource Centres for older people and The Minister: This is a very difficult subject, as Hon. their carers in the local community, including Hospital to Members will be aware from various reports which we have Home, Expanded Respite Care and Good Neighbour Schemes. had into childcare issues. It is a very fine line between control We explained that this would be achieved by the transfer of and supervision, sir, and that should not be crossed, because resources. We have been expanding Home Care gradually it has been made clear on numerous occasions that politicians over the years to better meet people’s stated preference to should not interfere with individual childcare issues. be supported in their own home. Given finite resources, we need to use operational mechanisms, such as the transfer of The President: Mr Gill. posts into jobs which can support more people, alongside the investment of resources into expanding or developing new Mr Gill: I fully accept the final point but could the services. The financial pressures – which we have meant Minister answer the question, what political responsibility and that we have had to put this operational mechanism on hold accountability is there for social workers’ malpractice? for the moment – are nothing to do with the measure itself, which has been fully costed. They come from outside Social The President: Mr Teare. Services and outside our control and could not have been evaluated or predicted. The Minister: I am aware that there are various reporting I have not announced a reversal of the policy change, mechanisms in place to deal with staffing issues and those as there was no policy change. I have not reversed the are implemented and enforced through the Department. If longstanding policy but I have temporarily deferred the there are any issues they would be reviewed at a Department operational mechanism which was going to help us implement meeting, sir. the policy of increasing community based care for older people. That strategic approach still remains and is a great support for many people and organisations. We will implement the expansion of support for older people in their own homes DHSS policy changes as our resources permit. Announcements without consultation I do appreciate the worry that has been caused to the general public by the inaccurate reporting and casual use 19. The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Cannell) to ask in some quarters of inappropriate language and misleading the Minister for Health and Social Security: terms, such as ‘closure of homes’ – (Interjection and laughter) The DHSS, contrastingly, has made every effort to explain (a) Why do you make policy change announcements carefully and accurately what we are, and what we are not without – doing, to the media, public service users and the carers, staff (i) any consultation; or and other interested parties. We cannot be held responsible if (ii) evaluating financial costings, and then announce a others choose to misuse or misrepresent this information and reversal of the policy change; and thus cause unnecessary worry. (b) do you not appreciate the worry and heartache you I do appreciate many older people who are looking forward have caused to the general public by such foolish and to remaining in their own home, with enhanced care, will be indecisive behaviour? disappointed that we have to slow down the expansion of the services that will support them until resources are available. The President: Question 19. Hon. Member for Douglas I ask them for their patience, Mr President. East, Mrs Cannell. The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Can I, first of all, ask the Minister who prepared his The President: Minister Teare. Answer, because whoever it is needs to be shot? (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr Can I also ask him, when he says, ‘I have made a policy Teare): Thank you, Mr President. change’ does he not appreciate he is sat today in the place I do not make policy changes without consultation. In where policy debates take place, (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) fact, I have not made a policy change. The DHSS has a long- which includes policy changes that wish to be pursued by standing policy of increasing the range of services available independent Departments that have an impact on the public? to older people who want to remain in their own homes and Why did he not bring the policy debate here and say that he need support and care to do so. The Department has the is wanting to deviate away from long-term residential care in strategic aim to provide services in people’s own homes that the Government’s, in the Department’s, own homes, with the enables them to maintain or regain their independence for as view of making available those beds that would eventually long as possible. become free to respite care. Why did he do that? Why did he Reflecting the Government’s Strategic Plan, the Department make a public announcement that he was going to do it and has been developing its strategic approach to prepare for the then make a public announcement that he is going to reverse impact of an ageing population and increase choice and it? (Laughter) diversity in its services. Over the last few years, senior Mr President, can I ask him why is he now saying he is

Social workers – Accountability; complaints measures DHSS policy changes – Announcements without consultation Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1149 T125 deferring it? Does he have a problem in terms of the delivery a mockery, then, to hear the Minister say: ‘Well, we have of policy and heading up this Department? now discovered that it is going to cost us more money’. That should have been known to the Department and the The President: Hon. Member! professional advisers!

Mrs Cannell: Because if he does, Mr President, should The President: Minister. he not step aside and let another Member take the head of this and run the Department? The Minister: That is a very helpful question, sir, and it gives me an opportunity to elaborate. The President: Hon. Member… we have largely answered It was fully costed. It was fully compared to our budgets all those questions in relation to Question 17. and we thought that by operating efficiently, we could deliver Mr Teare, you may reply, sir. this, even though it involved an initial charge and the cost in the first year of approximately £400,000. The Minister: Thank you for your guidance, sir. I felt comfortable with that, my colleagues did, and we I would just reiterate that this policy ha been well flagged decided that we could move. However, a week last Thursday, from 1991 and, additionally, it was covered in the Government I was briefed in the early morning that there is an issue strategy document which was approved by this Hon. Court, with the Reciprocal Health Agreement, which could have sir. very serious cost implications. Members will be aware that the Reciprocal Health Agreement determines the costs for The President: Mr Houghton. treatment in the UK of patients who go there for elective surgery. We are negotiating with the North West Health Care Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. and we are hoping that we would be able to resolve the issue, Mr President, the Minister is blaming others for but, acknowledging the difficulties that we may have to face, misrepresenting the facts. (Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear.) Mr I felt that, as a prudent move, I had to step back from the President, can the Minister explain the misrepresentation Department’s original proposal, sir. of the Department’s facts, which were so clearly displayed in a newspaper advertisement, when he declared, or his The President: Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Department declared, an elderly lady who is having wonderful Cannan. care etc, was not in the category of residential care level? Mr Cannan: Having listened to the Minister, will the The President: Mr Teare to reply. Minister clearly understand, we live in a democratic society? It is not his views or the views of his friends or the views of The Minister: Really, I think the Hon. Member has hit what he is hearing or what people are saying is a good idea. the nail on the head. Not everybody who is in residential care It is the views of Tynwald and the support of Tynwald that needs to be there, should be there. They are better off being he requires. If he has that support, I wish him well. If he does supported in their own community as long as possible, where not have that support, then he must revert. they can retain their commitment or their contact with the And will the Minister clearly understand that while he community, their friends and their neighbours around. I feel says that the Strategic Plan lays out the policy, it is an overall that is the right approach. policy that people vote on, not the particular itemised policies in that Strategic Plan? The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member. The President: Minister to reply. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Can the Minister confirm that the care agencies he purports The Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for his that are supportive of this move are also supportive of the clarification, sir. closure of long-term residential care bed places within the establishment? I am not referring to the closure of the actual buildings, Eaghtyrane – let’s be clear – but his announcement of the closure of long-term residential beds: can he confirm HOME AFFAIRS that the care agencies are also in support of that move? New prison, Jurby The President: Minister. Lack of remedial work

The Minister: The care agencies are in support of the 20. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Department’s direction of travel, sir, as I said before. Minister for Home Affairs:

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. Can you confirm that at the new prison at Jurby there is no remedial work being presently carried out due to Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. shortcomings by the main contractor? The Minister has, at least on two occasions this morning, mentioned the cost factor which made him change his mind, The President: Question 20. Hon. Member for Michael, or put it on hold. The cost element must have been known to Mr Cannan. the Department and the professionals before you made the decision and, therefore – I use the word ‘forthwith’ – you Mr Cannan: I ask the Question standing in my name, know, ‘we are closing it forthwith’ seemed to many to make sir.

DHSS policy changes – Announcements without consultation New prison, Jurby – Lack of remedial work 1150 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Oral Answers

The President: I call on the Minister for Home Affairs, (b) what are they? Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle. The President: Question 21. Hon. Member for Rushen, The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Quayle): Thank Mr Watterson. you, Mr President. There are some ongoing remedial works at the new Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. prison. However, at this time it is not clear whether this is due I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. to any shortcomings of the main contractor. A procedure for dealing with any defects as they arise has been established The President: This time the Answer is in the hands of with all parties in line with good practice and as is usually the Minister for Tourism and Leisure, Mr Earnshaw. the case following the completion of a major building scheme during the 12-month defect warranty period. The Minister for Tourism and Leisure (Mr Earnshaw): Thank you, Eaghtyrane. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cannan. The Department issues an annual industry survey to accommodation providers on the Island. This asks, ‘Which Mr Cannan: In the light of the Minister’s Answer to a of the following generates the most business?’ and gives a Question in the House of Keys only three weeks ago, when list of options. The resulting information provides us with an the Minister stated that the new prison was being delayed indication of where they feel referrals to their business come by training of prison officers, will he now agree that it is from. This year, 238 hoteliers were issued with the industry also being delayed because there are so many faults in the survey via e-mail and we received 34 replies. construction, including electronics, that can possibly take In answer to part (b) of the Question, the industry survey many weeks to rectify? figures show that in 2008 visitisleofman.com and the official guide have been the most significant generators of hotelier The President: Minister. referrals. According to the responses we received from the industry survey, the top five generators of business for 2008 The Minister: I am happy to confirm that that is not the have been: (1) visitisleofman.com, with 19 per cent; (2) the case, Mr President. official guide, with 19 per cent; (3) repeat business, 18 per cent; (4) our own website, 17 per cent; (5) word of mouth, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cannan. 15 per cent. I am cautious to point out, at this stage, that it is the Mr Cannan: Further question, sir. How long is it then, as opinions of the hoteliers on where their business referrals the Minister is unwilling to clarify his answers… how long come from and that why a visitor has chosen a holiday in does he expect this remedial work to continue? a particular destination or stayed in a particular hotel is determined by their personal circumstances and choice. Being The President: Minister. a relatively expensive purchase for the visitor, the decision- making process is likely to involve a lengthy information- The Minister: Mr President, in an attempt to be helpful gathering exercise and reference to a number of sources. to this Hon. Court, I would like to make it clear that the Hon. Throughout tourism, however, there is a rapidly growing Member for Michael seems to be under a misunderstanding. migration to the use of the internet in choosing a holiday Any defects that are being noted are being carefully dealt with destination, and the destination choice has to be considered and, as has been mentioned earlier, they are being recorded alongside the subsequent choice of where to stay. and will form part of the Department’s consideration of these outstanding issues. The President: Mr Watterson. However, that is not going to impact upon the transfer of the prisoners to Jurby. As I have previously mentioned, Mr Watterson: Given that the official guide appears to there is the issue to do with the training of the staff. My be the most, one of the most, popular methods of attracting understanding is that the training for the staff will be sufficient business – certainly in the mind of the hotelier – would I so as to be completed by 1st August for the necessary basic be right, then, that the Minister can assure the future of this training, and as I had earlier responded to a Question in the valuable asset to the hotelier, especially the small hotelier? House of Keys, I understand that the prisoners ought to be transferred some time during August. The President: Mr Earnshaw, Minister.

The Minister: I am happy to give that confirmation, but I also must qualify that and say that the position is reviewed on TOURISM AND LEISURE a regular basis. But for the moment, there is no plan to change. We do recognise that a migration process is taking place. Hoteliers Survey of business referrals

21. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Summerland site Minister for Tourism and Leisure: Future plans

(a) Have you surveyed your hoteliers to ascertain where 22. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Callister, to ask most referrals to their businesses come from; and the Minister for Tourism and Leisure:

New prison, Jurby – Lack of remedial work Hoteliers – Survey of business referrals Summerland site – Future plans Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1151 T125

What are your plans for the future of the Summerland Will the Minister confirm that it is up to him and his site? Department to lead up any initiatives for this site and will he further acknowledge and give a commitment to the issues The President: Question 22. Hon. Member of Council, I have raised here on and off over several years, with the Mr Callister. possibility of the site becoming a multi-use centre for the young people of this Island, which would also assist his Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. tourism industry? I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: Minister. The President: I call on the Minister for Tourism. The Minister: Yes, well, one of my responsibilities, The Minister for Tourism and Leisure (Mr Earnshaw): Eaghtyrane, is to assure value for money is received by the Thank you, Eaghtyrane. public for the responsibilities that I have. Whilst the Summerland site is owned by my Department, There are all sorts of possibilities that the Summerland it is, in reality, a Government resource. My Department has site could be used for and the idea of seeking expressions of no plans, at present, to develop the site for tourism and leisure interest is to vacuum up what might be out there. purposes and, indeed, there is nothing in the five-year capital programme. The immediate intention, however, is to seek The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner. expressions of interest from parties outside of Government, to discover if an appetite exists to develop the site for tourism Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. related use. Can the Minister inform this Court when the remainder My intention is to put this process into motion in the next of the building is to be removed, as it is rather an eyesore few weeks. Prior to this, in line with Government’s policy, there, at the end of the promenade. And is this problem with expressions of interest have already been sought from other removing the rest of the building possibly holding up future Departments and Statutory Boards. However, no interest interest in this site? has been shown. The President: Mr Earnshaw. The President: Mr Callister, Hon. Member. The Minister: I agree, Eaghtyrane, that it possibly is. Mr Callister: Has the Minister considered sale of the Sorry about the pun, but we are between a rock and a hard site? place here. We cannot prove the stability of the cliff without conducting a survey on the gardens of the neighbouring The President: Minister. properties, and we cannot get permission at the moment from the number of property owners that we require to conduct The Minister: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. that survey. I have not considered sale of the site so far. I am waiting So, unless and until we can get permission – and I would to see what the response is from the expressions of interest, very much like to achieve that – we are in a position where we which I hope will reveal somebody wanting to use this for cannot remove the remainder of Summerland, the residue of tourism or leisure-related services. Summerland, which is perceived to be holding up the cliff.

The President: Mr Houghton, Hon. Member. The President: Mr Malarkey, Hon. Member.

Mr Houghton: Mr President, will the Minister advise Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. whether he is really interested in developing this site for The Hon. Member of Council asked the same question leisure purposes, and if he is – if he is really interested in I was going to. developing this site – can he advise about the meeting that I had with his good self with a retired leisure architect as to how further that matter has progressed, sir? Lord Street bus station site The President: Minister. Progress made

The Minister: I think the answer to that, Eaghtyrane, is 23. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Callister, to ask that we could be, for the right project; it just depends what the Minister for Tourism and Leisure: comes forward. The project that the Hon. Member for North Douglas is referring to, we estimated would cost in excess Since Tynwald approved, in principle, a 999-year lease of £100 million, if it was brought forward, and, as far as I for the Lord Street bus station site, what progress has am aware – and I have issued a reminder – I hope a response been made for its development? has been issued to the Hon. Member. The President: In that case, Hon. Members, we will Mr Houghton: It has not. turn to Question 23. Hon. Member, Mr Callister, please. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name.

Summerland site – Future plans Lord Street bus station site – Progress made 1152 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Oral Answers

The President: Again, Mr Earnshaw, Minister for commercial sensitivity – commercially sensitive data – and in Tourism and Leisure, to reply. responding, I regret therefore that I may only be able to provide limited answers to the Court on a number of matters. The Minister for Tourism and Leisure (Mr Earnshaw): With regard to question (a), Signature are paid Thank you, Eaghtyrane. commission at a rate of 22½ per cent on additional revenue At the March 2008 sitting of Tynwald, the Minister of received and this has been previously stated by me to this the Department of Local Government and the Environment Hon. Court, in October… sorry, as previously stated by me received approval in principle for his Department, as to this Hon. Court in October 2007, they receive a basic fee landowner, to enter into a 999-year lease agreement with of £70,000 per annum. Askett-Hawk Developments (IOM) Limited. This followed As stated in my response to a similar Question in a lengthy debate during which an assurance was given by the another place in November 2007, I am unable to confirm Chief Minister to Tynwald Members that the final approval the actual amount of commission paid to Signature, as as to whether the scheme should be progressed to contract disclosing the revenue received would breach the commercial or not should be sought from Tynwald. confidentiality clause within the contract. To make this objective, members of the Council of The services provided by Signature have not altered since Ministers appointed a quayside working group, along with I last answered this Question, however, in this Hon. Court our legal representatives, Cains, and property consultants, in October 2007, and my predecessor announced in another Drivers Jonas, who were assisted by the Attorney General, place in June 2006, but to reconfirm, they include, but are and have, since then, been working towards the production not limited to: management and negotiation up to letter of of an expanded set of heads of terms, which provides intent of all sponsorship, licensing and other commercial considerably more detail than those initially proposed. contracts relating to the Isle of Man TT Races; compiling, The expanded heads of terms lay out the framework selling and account managing high net worth sponsorship for the eventual development agreement and will provide packages; managing all pitch processes for commercial TT additional information for Hon. Members to enable them to contracts; managing trademark and brand evaluation issues; make a decision over the future of the proposed development working with the Department to realign TT commercial scheme. There are still some stages to complete before the contracts, ensuring long-term security and professionalism; heads of terms are brought before this Hon. Court. Approval managing the pitch process for the appointment of a new is required from both the Council of Ministers and from the public relations agency specifically for the TT; facilitating the preferred developer, Askett-Hawk Developments (IOM) Ltd. provision of world-class event hospitality; and identifying However, good progress has been made, and I hope to bring new sponsorship and licensing opportunities on an ongoing this matter to the October sitting of Tynwald for approval. basis. All these, Eaghtyrane, are designed to help secure the future of the TT by generating incremental income through improved commercial management of contracts and by TT 2008 generating incremental sponsorship income. Commission and fees paid With regard to part (b) of the Question, the provision of security for the Grandstand during TT 2008 was entrusted to 24. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Lowey, to ask the G4S, following an open tender process where they were the Minister for Tourism and Leisure: sole tenders. I regret to advise I am unwilling to confirm how much was paid, as this is commercially sensitive information (a) How much commission and fees will be paid to and a clause exists in this particular contract regarding Signature for their services for 2008 TT and what were commercial confidentiality. those services; With regard to item (c), the organisation and promotion (b) how much was paid and to whom for security for the of the Isle of Man TT Races is a function of the DTL – my Grandstand areas for 2008 TT; Department – and is carried out under licence from the (c) how much was paid to ACU for organising 2008 Auto-Cycle Union, the governing body for United Kingdom TT; motorcycle sport. A subsidiary company of the ACU, ACU (d) how much was paid in commission/fees to Dukes and Events Ltd, have been contracted to work alongside the what were those services; and Department to deliver the competitive element of the event, (e) what services were provided and operated by the including the effective staging of the Races in 2008, for Department of Tourism and Leisure? which they were paid a fee of £40,000. Regarding part (d) of the Question, the contract with The President: Question 24. Hon. Member, Mr Duke Marketing is managed by Signature Sponsorship on Lowey. behalf of Tourism and Leisure, and the commission and fees paid to Duke are again commercially sensitive, so I Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. shall not be disclosing them. I can confirm, however, that I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. Duke acted as ticket agents for the 2008 TT, providing VIP hospitality suite tickets, which were sold openly, and also The President: Mr Earnshaw, please. Minister. exclusively provided the Grandstand tickets. As ticket agent, the services Duke provided included advanced ticket sales, The Minister for Tourism and Leisure (Mr Earnshaw): guaranteed seat allocation, website sales, shop facilities at Thank you, Eaghtyrane. the TT Grandstand, and credit card payments. Duke also Eaghtyrane, before I proceed in answering this Question, operates the TT website, a contract awarded following an Hon. Members will be aware of the nature of contracts and open tender process.

Lord Street bus station site – Progress made TT 2008 – Commission and fees paid Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1153 T125

With regard to the final part of the Question, part (e), in enjoying a sizeable benefit from the involvement of Signature respect of motor sport, and specifically the Isle of Man TT, in the TT Races, and it seems to me to be a satisfactory way the services supplied by my Department include, but are forward at the moment. not limited to: firstly, developing briefs and contracts for, The second question referred to security at the and then approving and agreeing, commercial contracts and Grandstand. I am afraid my brief does not cover that. I sponsorship packages in respect of the Isle of Man TT, and cannot say whether it was cheaper or more expensive than organising the legal support and paying of any legal costs what was paid in previous years, but I shall undertake to incurred during negotiations; secondly, co-operating with inform my hon. friend, Mr Lowey, regarding that as soon and supporting all sponsors of the Isle of Man TT; thirdly, as I possibly can. realigning TT commercial contracts to ensure long-term He then went on to ask about payments to the ACU. security, professionalism and income generation for the Considerably more money than this is paid to the ACU than event; fourthly, assisting in supporting the management the £40,000 I referred to; that is their fee for organising the of high net worth sponsorship packages and identifying Races. On top of this, we provide a considerable amount of areas of future potential: significantly, appointing and money for them to pay contracts, people who are contracted funding the selected brand agency and trademark agents to them, for instance, those who provide the course safety. I for the event and managing all aspects of the TT corporate think the one I have just referred to… I am not sure whether identity; sixthly, approving public relations briefs, budgets the security is paid through the Auto-Cycle Union as well, and activity; seventhly, management of Isle of Man but there is a whole raft of payments which the Auto-Cycle Government Departments and stakeholders to ensure TT Union are responsible for, and for which my Department related announcements, PR statements and press releases are provides funding. So there is a large amount of money which channelled appropriately; eighthly, approving strategy for TT is paid out, but the £40,000 that I have referred to refers to hospitality and securing the right to utilise Noble’s Park for their fee for running the Races. that purpose; ninthly, marketing the TT worldwide through The final part of his question referred to Signature: are broadcast and print media. And, finally – and I apologise for we doing the same jobs as them? To some extent, I would the length of the answer I have had to give today, Eaghtyrane say yes. This is a partnership; we are working in partnership – developing and delivering a world class event with full with them. The partnership seems to do fairly well. As I input from a wide range of partners. have said, I am satisfied with it. This has been a three-year exercise. The Hon. Member of Council was a Member of The President: Hon. Member, Mr Lowey. this Department, the Department of Tourism and Leisure, when the contract was set up. I do not know how involved Mr Lowey: I thank the Hon. Member for his reply he was at that particular time, but the situation was a runner and, while accepting that there are certain things that are when I joined the Department. It has one more year to run, commercially sensitive, can we have an assurance from the and we will be reviewing the situation then, but, as I have Minister that, taking the first part first, Signature is getting already said, and I will re-emphasise, at present, I am quite it for additional revenues and not all revenues? My belief is content with the way things are going. that they are getting it for all revenues raised by them. The security for the Grandstand, where there was only The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. one competitor: one assumes that it was cheaper than the existing rates that have been applied the year before. Perhaps Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. the Minister can confirm that. I appreciate the Minister cannot give us specific figures Would the Minister also confirm that, as the ACU were regarding the overall value of the deal, but can the Minister paid £1 million for the TT, spread over 20 years, £50,000 a give an idea of the comparative profitability of this, compared year, to be told they are now paid £40,000 to organise, when to when it was run in-house? With apologies to Play Your they were given £50,000 a year for the next 20 years, less than Cards Right, was it higher or lower? You get nothing for a three years ago, is a true reflection of their real worth? pair, not in this game. Can I also say that a lot of the list that he mentioned the Department of Tourism and Leisure were doing were the The President: Mr Earnshaw. very things that Signature were employed to do, anyway – so we are doing what we are paying Signature to do, as well The Minister: It is higher, Mr President. as Signature! And do they get 22½ per cent of your efforts in remuneration? The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member.

The President: Minister to reply. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Could the Minister respond to the scenario here with The Minister: Yes, thank you, Eaghtyrane. the secret payments made to the likes of Signature and the In response to the first part of Mr Lowey, the Hon. commercial confidentiality of these payments? How does he Member of Council’s question about an assurance about balance that up for public accountability, value for money? Signature, I could not hear very clearly, but I think he was How does his Department account to Treasury with regard talking about all income going to Signature. The income to all these secret payments, and how then is his Department comes to them in the first place; it is collected by them. able to advise the public that they are actually receiving We invoice Signature Sponsorship for what is due to us, excellent value for money? If he continues in his vein of and there is a flow of money in that way. Signature do not answers, Eaghtyrane, is he aware he could well be in danger enjoy the benefit of all the income – that would be a bit of of attracting the attention of the Public Accounts Committee a futile exercise, if that was the case – so the Department is to this matter?

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The President: Mr Earnshaw. with the numbers of people that use the Grandstand, during Practice Week and during the Race Week separately, and The Minister: Yes. I thank the Hon. Member for North those that paid and those that did not, please, sir. Also, rather Douglas for his questions regarding that. than wait for Hansard, would it be possible to have a copy I think this comes down to not only what is in the contract, of his opening speech, as well, sir. because I am precluded from giving that information by Thank you. the way the contracts are written, but it is really a question of being businesslike and professional. I think if all these The President: I do not know whether he has the figures matters are exposed, we will have difficulty in the future in for the Grandstand, but he might circulate them if he has getting other people to tender for Government contracts. So not. I think we have got to take a realistic view about what may Mr Earnshaw. or may not happen in the future, and that is the reason we go down this road. The Minister: I do not have those figures now, but I Certainly we do account to Treasury for everything that would be quite happy to circulate those, Eaghtyrane. goes on, and as far as value for money is concerned, I am standing here now, advising the public of what I consider to be something that is providing us with value for money at the moment. TRANSPORT

The President: Mr Lowey. Shaw’s Brow car park Use of level 3 Mr Lowey: One final supplementary to the Hon. Minister. Would the Minister not agree that we are in very 26. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Malarkey) to great danger here in the Isle of Man of becoming a facilitator ask the Minister for Transport: of an event, as opposed to an organiser of an event? How do local people get experience when, for example, basic What progress is being made with regard to the use of functions such as security at the Airport… at the back of the level 3 of Shaw’s Brow car park for local residents in Grandstand is undertaken by offshore security firms? Are compliance with planning conditions placed on the North we just becoming facilitators and not organisers of events, Quay improvements? and are we then in danger, in the future, of the prime tourist attraction becoming… a bit like a drug addict, becoming The President: Hon. Members, we move on to Question dependent on others, rather than the expertise – local 26 and I call on the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr expertise – that have made the races what they are? Malarkey.

The President: Mr Earnshaw, Minister for Tourism. Mr Malarkey: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name, sir. The Minister: Yes, thank you, Eaghtyrane. I think there is an ambition to move the TT forward and The President: This time I call on Mr Anderson, Minister to do that we have got to engage, and to increase its profile for Transport. we have to engage, sometimes, with people from outside the Isle of Man. The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Thank As regards the security of the TT Grandstand, this was you, Mr President. subject to an open tender process and if somebody else would I am grateful to the Hon. Member for raising this issue, like to tender for it for next year’s event – I’m not quite sure which has also been raised by his hon. colleague for South how long G4S’s contract is for. It may be one year: it may Douglas, Mr Cretney, on several occasions. The Department be longer, but if somebody else would like to tender for it has agreed in principle to the use of level 3 of Shaw’s Brow next time I would be pleased to hear from them. I think the car park in the evenings and at weekends by residents of situation has recently changed elsewhere on the Island with the area between Lord Street and the North Quay holding regard to their involvement, so it is certainly not a closed residents’ parking permits. shop. The equipment necessary for restricting night-time and I am listening with interest regarding the comments weekend use to level 3 has been identified and is presently about ‘facilitator’ and organiser. For most events on the being sourced by Douglas Corporation. Details of the annual Isle of Man, and for most activities I see the role of the contribution to the cost associated with having level 3 Department of Tourism as a facilitating role. (Mr Lowey: available for use by the residents out of the normal opening Nowadays!) In terms of the TT Races we are, indeed, the hours has still to be agreed with the Corporation. I cannot at organising party in regard to that. We are in charge of the this stage give a date when this parking will be available at TT Races and I think that is probably the only event that the Shaw’s Brow car park. However, the Department has written Department of Tourism is directly responsible for, in terms to the residents concerned, advising them that parking is of organisation. available for permit holders on the South Quay.

The President: Hon. Member for Peel, Mr Crookall. The President: Mr Malarkey.

Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. Can I just ask the Minister, will he please furnish Members Would the Minister confirm that it was a planning

TT 2008 – Commission and fees paid Shaw’s Brow car park – Use of level 3 Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1155 T125 condition, before phases 2 or 3 were completed, that this Mr Malarkey: Will the Minister confirm then that he facility was to be available for the residents? will refund the parking fines of the residents of the Quayside Would he also agree that he made a promise to this Court who have nowhere to park at the moment? in March, I think, if my memory serves right, that this would all be done and completed by July, which is where we are The President: Minister. at the moment? Would the Minister also agree that this stage of phase 3 The Minister: I cannot confirm that, Mr President. is all but complete, except for a few cobbles to be left down on some of the footway? So in actual fact, his Department is contrary to the planning condition that was actually laid before them. Road Traffic Act And finally, Mr President, would the Minister like to Removal of schedule 2 reimburse the residents of the Quayside their parking fines that they are getting put on them, because of the lack of 27. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Malarkey) to parking facilities on the Quay, contrary to what was agreed ask the Minister for Transport: when he got the money to do the project? What progress is being made with taxi owners in regard The President: Mr Anderson, Minister. to the removal of schedule 2 of the Road Traffic Act?

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The President: Question 27 then, Hon. Members. Mr Firstly, I can confirm it is a planning condition that Malarkey. parking be arranged in Shaw’s Brow car park. I can also confirm that my Department is negotiating presently with Mr Malarkey: I beg leave to ask the Question standing Douglas Corporation to secure – (Interjection by Mrs in my name, sir. Cannell) They have come to agreement on the area within The President: the car park. They are now negotiating about the ongoing Again, Hon. Members, Minister for Transport, Mr Anderson. costs. We will be paying for facilities to be put in to secure that area apart from the rest of the car park. That is agreed. The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Thank We are now at the stage where we are negotiating about the you, Mr President. annual revenue costs the Department of Transport will pay Further to the debate on the Revocation Order of the towards Douglas Corporation for having that lit at night. May sitting of Tynwald, the Department will be undertaking I will confirm that we will be completing the scheme a comprehensive consultation on the effect of the proposed in August and therefore there is a necessary urgency for us Order and the effect of the removal of schedule 2. This to get the agreement completed with Douglas Corporation, consultation will not be confined to the views of taxi owners, and we have already had one meeting this week with but will incorporate the views of many stakeholders and Douglas Corporation. I think things are moving in the right members of the public who may have a view. direction. It is also intended to undertake personal hearings, either at the request of the respondents or at the request of the The President: Mr Malarkey. consultation panel. I can further advise that my hon. colleague, Mr Crookall, Mr Malarkey: So can the Minister then – he has not as well as Mr Callister have agreed to join me on this panel, actually stated – confirm that there will be parking facilities along with Mr Brendan O’Friel, Chairman of the independent for the residents by 1st August this year, as was promised by lobby group, TravelWatch. him in this Hon. Court earlier this year and also promised It is the Department’s intention that the report on this by him when he first came to start phase 1, that he was in consultation will be circulated to Hon. Members in time for negotiation with the Council and DoLGE with regard to this the December sitting of Tynwald. car park some 18 months ago? The President: Mr Malarkey. The President: Minister. Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I thank the Minister for his Answer. Obviously, the letter As far as the Department of Transport is concerned, the by the Chief Minister was circulated to us just after the ball is in the Corporation’s court, if you like, because we Question was placed with them. are waiting for them to come to confirm that their costs that Does the Minister consider that this panel of four, which they put forward to us, and the cost that we put forward to consists of two Members of DoT, and is actually chaired by them… There is something in between the two at the moment DoT, is a very equal and balanced way of getting a neutral that we cannot agree on, but we are talking to them. As I opinion? have already explained, we have already had a meeting this Would the Minister not agree that we are now into late July, week. I think we are moving in the right direction, and we are and this six-month referral was done in May, so we are almost doing what is within our power to make sure this resolution a third into the consultation time, which is a great delay? comes to a completion before we have finished the work on Could the Minister please explain to me, when I came North Quay. forward to this Hon. Court in April, looking for a select committee to do exactly what is being put forward today, The President: Mr Malarkey. why did he vote against it?

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The President: Mr Anderson. Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Minister confirm that the Airport Director has The Minister: I must point out to the Hon. Member undertaken selective interviews with taxi drivers at the that the responsibility for this is the Minister for Transport’s Airport, prior to your meetings with your taxi drivers, to set responsibility, and therefore that is why I am chairing the up an exclusive Airport taxi, which seems to be contrary to Committee. In relation to my colleague, Mr Crookall, he where the Minister wants to go with all-Island taxis? Can the has responsibilities for highways within the Department, Minister confirm that these meetings are taking place with and quite clearly that is why he is on the Committee as selective Airport taxi drivers with this aim of setting up a well. Within the debate, Mr Callister had major reservations, selective Airport taxi crew? and although he did not express a view at that time, it was thought he was a good independent Member from this Hon. The President: Minister. Court to put on that Committee. I am glad he has accepted that role. Of course, Mr O’Friel has an interest in this area The Minister: Mr President, I am not in a position to as well with his travel hat on. know if the Airport Director has had selective meetings So I think we have got a good body of a Committee, with individual taxi drivers from the Airport. However, the and I look forward to the representations made by not just Airport will be able to make representation to the Consultative the general public, and not just by the taxi drivers and taxi Committee and make their views known as well. owners, but Members of this Court. The President: Now, Hon. Members, all the remaining The President: A final supplementary, Mr Malarkey. Questions will be answered in writing.

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Questions for Written Answer AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FORESTRY Seaweed as fertiliser Investigations CHIEF MINISTER 9. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the EuroManx/Quest Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: Aircraft leaving Isle of Man (a) Have there been any recent investigations into the 2. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the practicality of harvesting seaweed from Manx beaches Chief Minister: for use as an organic fertiliser and/or soil improver, to reduce our dependence on chemical fertilisers and (a) Will you comment on the apparent anomaly between therefore reduce the environmental damage caused by the second and third paragraphs of your memorandum these chemical fertilisers; to Members of the House of Keys dated 27th June 2008 (b) if so, what was the outcome of those investigations; on the subject of ‘EuroManx/Flight Support Ownership’, and where, in the second paragraph you state that ‘there is no (c) if not, do you think that it is an idea worth joint or common ownership between Flight Support and investigating? EuroManx/Quest’ and in the third paragraph you state, ‘Flight Support being part of Airbase Holdings’ and ‘the Answer: (a) This is a process which I have previous Chairman of Quest, Mr Robin Southwell, is a director of personal experience of during my time at Cregneash and so Airbase Holdings and has shares in the company, so he I am very aware of its benefits and have raised the option is a common shareholder’; at recent industry meetings. However, there has been no (b) would you accept the fact that Mr Robin Southwell, recent formal investigation into the practicality of harvesting as Chairman of Quest would have been fully involved in seaweed to use as a substitute for other fertilisers. whatever decision was made at 0100 on 9th May 2008 (b) The 2002 Report for Douglas Corporation regarding regarding EuroManx, to cease trading, appointing a disposal methods for the seaweed cleared from the beach receiver or liquidator, etc; and as he was also a director concluded that for use as a fertiliser, ‘compared to disposal and part owner of Airbase/Flight Support, that it is clear straight to sea, initial costs will be higher’. However, that that at the top level, Flight Support knew that EuroManx Report does not specifically deal with the Question you have had ceased trading at the same time, but failed to tell raised and has probably been overtaken by the recent rises their check-in staff until the EuroManx aircraft had left in fertiliser prices. the Isle of Man; and (c) With regard to investigating this idea further, I am (c) therefore, would you agree that it would appear that very aware of the recent increases in prices for fertilisers Airbase/Flight Support management could have been and the Department is reviewing alternatives with a view to involved in a conspiracy with EuroManx/Quest to enable providing additional advice to farmers on this matter. These the EuroManx aircraft to leave the jurisdiction of the alternatives include the use of farmyard manure and crops Isle of Man without alerting the Manx authorities, by such as nitrogen fixing clover and I will request that it covers checking-in passengers on the morning of 9th May as seaweed usage as well. though nothing had changed? The process is not without costs, as the plastic and stones must be removed and the smell may not make it suitable for Answer: (a) My memo of 27th June 2008, in response fields near residential areas. It should be noted that there to a Question in the House of Keys, was attempting to would need to be restrictions on where seaweed could be clarify that EuroManx was part of a group of companies gathered, for instance, from feeding areas of internationally owned by Quest and that Flight Support was part of a group important species such as chough or sections of beach within of companies owned by Airbase Holdings. There was no an Area of Special Scientific Interest. direct common ownership between EuroManx and Flight Support. However, as I explained, Mr Robin Southwell, who is the Chief Executive Officer of Quest, is also a director and shareholder in Airbase Holdings. Such relationships Marine aggregate extraction as exist appears to be a common directorship between Environmental damage EuroManx and the parent company, Airbase Holdings, and not a direct common ownership between EuroManx and 10. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Flight Support. Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: (b) I would expect that, as Chairman of Quest, Mr Robin Southwell would have been fully involved in whatever (a) Would you agree that the extraction of marine decision was made at 0100 on 9th May 2008 regarding aggregates can cause severe or permanent damage to EuroManx and, that it is conceivable that Flight Support the marine environment, including damage to the marine could have been aware of the decision by EuroManx’s food chain, which can affect the fishing industry; directors. However, I have no evidence to confirm that. (b) would you also agree that gravel sites support some (c) I know of no evidence to support the Hon. Member’s of the most bio-diverse marine communities around theory, as set out in this part of the Question. the British Isles and that heavily dredged sites display

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virtually no recovery in terms of the original biological Department would be interested in exploring opportunities community that lived there; and for this land with the Commissioners, should this site become (c) therefore, on environmental grounds, will you make available. representations to the Department of Trade and Industry and the Council of Ministers against the principle of marine aggregate extraction from Manx territorial waters? TRADE AND INDUSTRY

Answer: (a) I would agree with the Hon. Member for Marine aggregate extraction Onchan that marine aggregate extraction can have a severe Ban on export long-term impact on the marine environment and it is widely recognised that such activities should only be carried out after 25. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the careful planning and a detailed assessment of environmental Minister for Trade and Industry: impact. An assessment of wider impacts such as coastal erosion, cumulative effects and fisheries effects is also Further to the helpful and informative Written Answer required. These are issues that I am currently discussing you gave to Question 31 to Tynwald in June 2008 – with my counterparts at the Department of Transport and (a) will you inform this Court of the approximate amount the Department of Trade and Industry. of money paid to the UK Government per ton of aggregate (b) In response to part (b) of the Question, again, I would extracted from UK territorial waters, and therefore a agree with the Hon. Member that marine gravel beds do, rough estimate of the revenue, net of expenses, likely indeed, support highly diverse marine communities. to accrue to the Manx Treasury as a result of marine Aggregate dredging can result in 50-90 per cent reduction aggregate extraction, if permitted, in Manx territorial in species. Significant recovery in coarse sand and gravel waters; habitats has been estimated to take 15-20 years but research (b) in view of your comments that, ‘Manx onshore on this topic is ongoing. aggregate reserves are finite’ and ‘In decades to come (c) Finally, and with regard to the third element of the the Isle of Man will need to consider from where its Hon. Member for Onchan’s Question, I can assure this needs will be met’, would you not agree that marine Hon. Court that my Department is working closely with aggregates are a strategic asset that should be retained the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department for the Manx people in the event of national need for when of Transport to ensure that if marine aggregate extraction land based material is either exhausted or cannot be is developed it must be environmentally and economically extracted economically in an environmentally acceptable sustainable, undertaken in appropriate areas, and not at the manner; expense of our fishing industry or our marine biodiversity. (c) are you aware that a number of countries, including Indeed, I very much welcome the co-operative approach Ireland and Holland, either ban marine aggregate adopted by all Departments, and in particular that of the extraction or ban its export, and therefore would you Minister for Trade and Industry, in ensuring that a thorough agree that exporting marine aggregates in the present consideration of the environmental impact of marine circumstances is tantamount to selling the family silver; aggregate extraction will be undertaken prior to any such and extraction being sanctioned. (d) therefore, will you give an undertaking that no licences will be granted for the commercial extraction of marine aggregates from Manx territorial waters that permit the material extracted to be exported? LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND THE ENVIRONMENT Answer: (a) The Department has been informed that the typical royalty rate paid to the Crown for marine aggregates Old Ramsey swimming pool dredged within UK waters is 82 or 83 pence per tonne. In Plans addition, the UK Government imposes a tax of £1.60 per tonne on sales of aggregate under the Aggregates Levy 14. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Sustainability Fund, though this tax is not imposed if the Minister for Local Government and the Environment: material is exported. Within Manx waters, we are still at the prospecting stage What are further plans for old Ramsey swimming and the results of this – the nature and quality of the material, pool? its precise locations and potential quantity – are not expected until at least the end of this summer. As no application has Answer: I am pleased to be able to inform you that the been made to the DTI for commercial extraction of marine new swimming pool at Ramsey is progressing well and aggregates, it is impossible to say at this stage what the should be completed at the end of 2008. potential level of production might be and, therefore, what The swimming pool development has taken place on revenue might result. land formerly owned by Ramsey Town Commissioners. The (b) Manx marine aggregates could, indeed, prove to formal legal arrangements in place ensure that, on completion be a strategic asset. The Department is deliberately taking of the new facility, the old Ramsey swimming pool site will a cautious and carefully considered approach to all issues be conveyed to the Ramsey Town Commissioners. surrounding the matter of whether or not extraction is I understand that at present the Commissioners have no possible. Should the results of prospecting be suitably immediate plans for the future use of the site. However, the positive and should the Government wish to act on this, a

Marine aggregate extraction – Environmental damage Old Ramsey swimming pool – Plans Marine aggregate extraction –Ban on export Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1159 T125 decision will be made at that time. preparatory work would have been carried out. (c) The Department is not aware of which countries have In a fully proactive strategy, all perceived challenges from actually banned the extraction of marine aggregates, though flooding on the Island would be investigated and dealt with as it is understood that the Republic of Ireland has not latterly soon as possible. This strategy would require large amounts produced any such material. Holland has, it is believed, of money and resources and could lead to unnecessarily high restricted dredging (other than for navigational purposes) to levels of investment. areas more than 25 kilometres off their own coastline and to The proactive, precautionary strategy recognises that it waters more than 20 metres deep. will never be technically, economically or environmentally (d) As has been previously stated, the question of whether acceptable to prevent flooding entirely. The emphasis is on to permit extraction of marine aggregates on a commercial flood risk management, which will reduce the likelihood of level is one that should be considered by Government at a flooding and the impact of floods when they occur. Investment wider level, taking into account need, environmental impact would be prioritised based on a high level and pragmatic risk and potential economic benefit. The prospecting activities assessment while encouraging appropriate development to the Department has so far licensed are intended to inform the minimise the risk of future flood damage. process of consideration. The Draft Report recommended that the Department should In a response to a previous Question, it has been stated that consider the advantages involved in adopting a proactive, to land marine aggregates for general use on the Island would precautionary approach to flood risk management. require very expensive special handling and storage facilities I can confirm that a flood risk management strategy for so commercial extraction, at least in the short term, would the Island is currently being developed in consultation with most likely involve export straight from the point of extraction a wide range of interested parties, including Departments of in Manx waters. The reference to ‘selling the family silver’ Government, private sector developers and a local insurance in terms of export, whilst open to some debate, would prove company. The strategy takes into account best practice within to be another point of consideration which should exercise neighbouring jurisdictions. This work is being undertaken in wider Government and it is not for the DTI alone to impose partnership with the Department of Local Government and the or deny such a restriction. Environment and is due to be completed by this month. The Department is also undertaking a programme of work to identify areas at risk of flooding from main rivers. In relation to river flooding; surveys are underway to determine the flows TRANSPORT in the Island’s main rivers and to develop river catchment models that will define the areas at risk from flooding. Flood plain maps will then be produced to show the predicted extent Second Bullen Report of extreme floods. It is intended that the flood maps will be Recommendations published to raise awareness of flood risk to existing properties and infrastructure, and to inform the planning process. It is 28. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the anticipated that this whole process will take approximately Minister for Transport: 12 months. In relation to tidal flooding, the Department is currently Within the second Bullen Report published in 2003, which developing a computer model to simulate the effect of of three recommendations in section 6.3 of that Report storm tide surges in the harbours. This will also consider the states that the options are – predicated increase in sea level around the Island. The extent (a) fully reactive; of the areas at risk of storm tide flooding will then also be (b) fully proactive; and incorporated within the flood plain maps. (c) proactive precautionary; and I trust this information provides the Hon. Member with which option has the Government decided to follow and the information he requires on the current status of the why? Department’s flood risk management strategy. However, if he or other Hon. Members require further and more detailed Answer: The Report to which the Hon. Member for information I would respectfully suggest that they make Onchan refers was a Draft Report entitled ‘Strategic Review contact with my Director of Drainage. of Flood Risk Management’ which was prepared by Bullen Consultants and submitted to the Department in October 2003. Section 6.3 of the Draft Report did not contain Marine aggregate extraction recommendations but did indicate that the future strategies Coastal erosion for flood risk management for the Island could be either: 29. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the • fully reactive Minister for Transport: • fully proactive or; • proactive, precautionary (a) Would you agree that marine aggregate extraction can cause coastal erosion; for example, would you accept that To assist Hon. Members, I will provide a brief outline of the coastal erosion at Formby and Sefton in Merseyside the strategic options. was caused by dredging in the Mersey estuary and that A fully reactive strategy is one where investment would aggregate extraction caused Hallsands village in Devon only be made in response to flood incidents. Investment levels to be washed away; would be unpredictable, people and property would suffer (b) would you also agree that as the Manx coastline is flooding before the problems were identified, and the lead- under increasing threat due to climate change, which time to construct alleviation schemes would be longer as no could require increasing expenditure on sea defence, it

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would be unwise to increase that risk by allowing marine were proceeding against public health officials Dr Paul aggregate extraction in Manx waters; and Emerson and Dr Parameswaran Kishore for allegedly (c) therefore, will you make representations to the breaching the 2003 Medicines Advertising Act; Department of Trade and Industry and the Council of (b) will you also confirm, as far as you can, whether it is Ministers against the principle of marine aggregate these police investigations that the Minister for Health extraction from Manx territorial waters? and Social Security was referring to when he declined to answer certain questions relating to the fluoridation of Answer: In answer to part (a) of the Question, I am not water in the May 2008 sitting of Tynwald; and personally qualified to advise on environmental matters. (c) assuming the media reports were accurate, will you However, any environmental impact of dredging in the give an update on the investigations, including whether Mersey, or the coastline around Hallsands village is a matter advice has been received from the Attorney General’s for the UK authorities, who are allowing this practice to Chambers and whether charges have been brought? continue. With regard to part( b) of the Question, I agree with the Answer: In answer to part (a), I am advised that no local Hon. Member that the Manx coastline is under increasing media coverage suggested that the Isle of Man Constabulary pressure due to climate change. The predicted rise in sea was investigating any officials of the Department of Health level, the increasing frequency and severity of storms and and Social Security. However, I understand that the Press storm surge events would require increasing expenditure. coverage did say that the Constabulary had sought legal I do not, however, agree that allowing marine aggregate advice from the Attorney General about whether a need abstraction from the deeper waters around the Island will existed to begin an investigation. necessarily increase the risk of inundation of the coastline In answer to part (b), the Minister for Health and Social by the sea or increase the rate of coastal erosion because any Security has confirmed that he did not decline to answer the proposal would be subject to a full Environmental Impact questions. However, he did state when answering the question Assessment. that ‘As the matter has, as I understand it, been referred to In answer to part (c) of the Question, I am confident the Police and is presently with the Attorney General’s that the Department of Trade and Industry will consult all Chambers for clarification, it would be inappropriate for me relevant interested parties and consider all submitted views to comment any further.’ prior to any determination. In answer to part (c), I can advise that the Constabulary has now received advice from the Attorney General’s Chambers in this regard and, as a result, will not be investigating this matter and therefore no charges will be brought. EuroManx aircraft Impounding by Flybe

30. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the EuroManx Ltd/EuroManx Airways GmbH Minister for Transport: Liquidation

Is it the case that the EuroManx aircraft that departed 32. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the from the Isle of Man at 0623 on 9th May 2008 to the Chief Minister: maintenance facility at Exeter Airport was that which could be impounded by Flybe against money owing to With regard to your memorandum to all Members them, including maintenance charges, etc? of Tynwald dated 20th June 2008 on the subject of EuroManx Ltd – Answer: I understand that a maintenance organisation (a) will you clarify exactly what did happen at 0100 on may have the right of detention against an aircraft but only 9th May 2008, the time at which you were misinformed in terms of a ‘possessory lien’ and it can only be exercised that ‘EuroManx was put into liquidation’; against the aircraft to which the charges relate. (b) will you define ‘very early on the morning of 9th May With regard to the Dash7 EuroManx aircraft, the 2008’ in terms of an actual time or at least in terms of the Department of Transport does not know what happened to the sequence of events that unfolded on 9th May; i.e. was it aircraft upon landing at Exeter on the 9th May, and we are not 0100, was it before 0623 when the EuroManx aircraft aware that Flybe was, or is, owed money by EuroManx. left Manx jurisdiction, was it before the flight plan for this aircraft was filed, etc; (c) therefore, who specifically had control and responsibility for the management of the EuroManx CHIEF MINISTER aircraft when it left Manx jurisdiction at 0623 on 9th May; Medicines Advertising Act 2003 (d) with regard to the creditors holding tickets that are Alleged breach by public health officials unusable, is it not the case that bookings were made with EuroManx Airways GmbH, so that ticket holders 31. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the are creditors of EuroManx Airways GmbH and not Chief Minister: EuroManx Ltd; (e) if so, what is the solvency situation with regard to (a) Will you confirm the accuracy or otherwise of media EuroManx Airways GmbH; reports in May 2008 suggesting that police investigations (f) what is the precise relationship between EuroManx

Marine aggregate extraction – Coastal erosion EuroManx aircraft – Impounding by Flybe Medicines Advertising Act 2003 – Alleged breach by public health officials EuroManx Ltd/EuroManx Airways GmbH – Liquidation Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1161 T125

Airways GmbH and EuroManx Ltd; United Kingdom Government of a large sum owing to (g) is it not the case that the aircraft operator’s licence them in respect of the new Revenue Sharing Agreement was held by EuroManx Airways GmbH in Austria and that and if so, what is the amount owed by the Isle of Man their aircraft were registered in Austria; Government? (h) in which jurisdiction(s) would the court order you referred to have to be obtained: the Isle of Man, the UK Answer: May I thank the Hon. Member for his Question (where the majority of the directors of EuroManx Ltd and refer him to Page 33 of the Government’s Light Blue reside and where the majority of its shares are held) or Book printed and published earlier this year. This indicated Austria; and provision for a substantial adjusting payment to the UK. This (i) will you update Members on the current receivership adjustment has now been made. and/or liquidation situation with regard to the EuroManx The adjustment resulted from the working of the new companies; bearing in mind that on 20th June you said sharing mechanism, in that the Island received a larger that no registration for liquidation of EuroManx has yet advance than anticipated from the ‘pot’ in respect of 2007-8. been filed at the General Registry, but on 21st June a This was identified at year end and refunded. The mechanism ‘EuroManx Liquidation Sale’ took place, having been has been corrected to mitigate against over or under payments advertised in the press some days previously? occurring in future.

Answer: (a) I have already stated in numerous answers to questions the position, as Government understands it, and also in the memo referred to in this Question. HM ATTORNEY GENERAL (b) The information in the memo is quite clear and, as stated, EuroManx was put into liquidation at 0100 hours on EuroManx the 9th. I have already confirmed the time that the EuroManx Removal of aircraft from Island aircraft left the Island that day, being 0623 hours. (c) As I have previously advised, in answers to questions, 34. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask HM the captain of the aircraft was in control of and responsible for Attorney General: the aircraft departing the Island, but as the flight was operated under a EuroManx flight call sign it can be assumed that, Further to your Answers in relation to Question 16 in managerially, EuroManx had instructed the flight departure. Tynwald Court on 17th June 2008 and the document (d) Investigations from the handling agent for EuroManx entitled ‘A guide to aircraft finance’, written by Field have confirmed the purchase of tickets was made with Fisher Waterhouse, which I have circulated to all EuroManx Airways GmbH, and not EuroManx Limited. Tynwald Members: (e) This is currently unknown and is a matter for the (a) do you agree with the interpretation of the law as liquidator when his appointment is confirmed by the court. written in the document and in particular the sections Treasury understands that the company has net liabilities and relating to liens and rights of detention; is in the Austrian equivalent of a voluntary liquidation. (b) therefore, would you now accept that certain liens (f) An organisation chart dated 11th October 2007 was and rights of detention, including for unpaid airport provided to Treasury in early November which showed charges, have priority against a financier with a valid that EuroManx Airways GmbH was a 100 per cent owned mortgage; so that airport authorities have the power to subsidiary of EuroManx Limited. detain an aircraft for unpaid airport charges and can (g) I am not in a position to confirm or deny this. apply to the court for leave to sell the aircraft, no matter (h) The provisional liquidator has advised that it is an Isle to whom it belongs; of Man Court Order which is required. Should an extension (c) would you agree that the EuroManx aircraft, which to other jurisdictions be required then the liquidator is likely left Manx jurisdiction at 0623 on 9th May 2008 under to pursue that course of action when needed. apparently dubious circumstances, was detained, could (i) The current situation with regard to the liquidation have been sold to recover money owing the Manx is that Mr Mike Simpson of Price Waterhouse Coopers was Government for airport charges, irrespective of the fact appointed by the Isle of Man Court as liquidator on 10th July that it may have been leased or mortgaged; 2008. Prior to that date he was acting on the instructions of the (d) would you consider that if the intention of removing directors of EuroManx Limited to wind up the affairs of the the aircraft from Manx jurisdiction, while deliberately company. The sale of the company’s chattels in a liquidation concealing material facts about the status of the airline, sale on 21st June was carried out under that authority. was to deprive Manx creditors of the ability to recover money owing to them, this could constitute a criminal offence or grounds for civil proceedings; and (e) is it possible, having considered the circumstances in TREASURY which the aircraft was removed from Manx jurisdiction, that somebody may have received a benefit by deception New Revenue Sharing Agreement and therefore a criminal offence may have been Large sum owed to UK committed?

33. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Answer: The document in question, ‘A guide to aircraft Minister for the Treasury: finance’, has been prepared by a firm of English solicitors and as such it is concerned primarily with English law, upon Has the Treasury recently received notification from the which I am unable to advise. I note, however, that the guide

EuroManx Ltd/EuroManx Airways GmbH – Liquidation New Revenue Sharing Agreement – Large sum owed to UK EuroManx – Removal of aircraft from Island 1162 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Written Answers makes it clear that it is not intended to be a substitute for and training); and detailed advice on specific transactions and should not be (ii) will the Police take responsibility in the event of taken as providing legal advice on any of the topics discussed their making event organisers take decisions they do not in the guide. agree with if, as a result of those decisions, something I have made it clear in the Answer I gave in Tynwald on goes wrong? the 17th June 2008 that it was not possible to reply to some of the Questions raised by the Hon. Member as such were Answer: Mr President, prior to answering the specific largely hypothetical and did not specify particular facts. questions posed, I would like to congratulate the Isle of In relation to the possibility of taking a lien over an Man Constabulary, and particularly Superintendent Carolyn aircraft operated by EuroManx, I made it clear that ‘on the Kinrade, for their efforts in assisting and ensuring that the face of it’ existing charges passed by EuroManx Limited on thrust of the Coroner’s recommendations were enacted to its assets would take priority over any proposed lien over produce a successful 2008 TT. such an aircraft. Moreover, the guide makes it clear that: Hon. Members will note that, in the pursuance of road racing events, safety is of the paramount concern. If the ‘An undertaking can be obtained from the borrower in the documentation not to permit the creation of any liens other than those permitted by the Island is to continue to hold such events, Government cannot transaction documents...’ afford a further experience where the safety of spectators is compromised. It may be, therefore, that the pre-existing charges (or The Coroner of Inquests made it quite clear that public some or one of them) passed by EuroManx prevented the services have a responsibility and accountability in ensuring operation of any lien. that events are properly organised, managed and that every Subject to these observations, I respond to the Questions emphasis is placed on safety. from the Hon. Member as follows: In this connection I am pleased to provide the following clarification in relation to the Questions that have been (a) I am not in a position to give an opinion as to the posed: interpretation of the law set out in the document as such (a)(i) The Road Races Act does not require the presence relates primarily to English law. of a Senior Police Officer; however, it does require Road (b) I agree the general proposition but everything depends Closure Orders to be produced in respect of each event. A on the particular facts and circumstances of a given case. condition of all Road Closure Orders granted under the Road (c) For the reasons mentioned above I cannot agree that Races Act 1982 is that a Senior Police Officer is appointed this would necessarily be the case. to play his/her part in ensuring that the Road Closure Orders (d) This is a hypothetical question which I am unable conditions are complied with. It may be useful to note that to answer. this should and could include prohibited/restricted areas, (e) This is a hypothetical question which I am unable along with many other criteria. to answer. It is, therefore, inherent that should conditions not be complied with then the Senior Police Officer has a duty to ensure that the appropriate action, in terms of the event, is carried out. HOME AFFAIRS It is clearly the case, therefore, that if a Senior Police Officer is not appointed, as per the Road Closure Order, then Police the conditions of the Road Closure Order are breached. Employment at motor sport events (a)(ii) In 1994 a Committee from Treasury, the then Department of Tourism, Department of Home Affairs and 35. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Turner, to ask the Internal Audit produced an Agreement covering the policing Minister for Home Affairs: charges for eight named major sporting events. The charges were laid down, with the proviso that they would be subject (a) (i) Where in the Road Races Act is there the enabling to annual increase at the rate of the RPI. That Agreement was power for the Police to insist that event organisers must reviewed circa three years ago, at which time it was agreed ‘employ’ the services of Police at ‘inspector’ level at an to maintain the Agreement. hourly rate of £44.00 per hour plus VAT; (a)(iii) Revenue returns to the Isle of Man Constabulary (ii) has this private hire scheme been set up with Treasury as part of the annual budgetary process to fund the cost of concurrence, and under what Treasury guidance note the service provided for the event. and procedures is it operated, and how and by whom (b)(i) There was no change in policy, be it minor or are the rates set; and major, and it is regrettable that the Hon. Member for Council (iii) where does the revenue from this private hire is alleging that a Senior Police Officer has responded, business go; as an individual and not under the umbrella of their (b) (i) what consultation was carried out with event organisation. organisers prior to the Superintendent carrying out this (b)(ii) The Police are not co-ordinators of motor sport, major change in policy; they are playing a lead role in the operational response to the (ii) what consultation was carried out prior to the Police Coroner’s recommendations where three people tragically being appointed as co-ordinators of motor sport; and died. The Isle of Man Government has fully accepted the (iii) who appointed them to this position and under what Coroner’s recommendations. statutory Act or Order; As a consequence of the recommendations, the Chief (c) (i) what experience in the organisation of motor sport Minister, Council of Ministers and Chief Executive Officers events do the Police have (e.g. ACU or MSA licences of affected Departments have appointed a multi-disciplinary

EuroManx – Removal of aircraft from Island Police – Employment at motor sport events Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1163 T125 team of officers and experts to manage the Government’s Manufacturing, etc, Building Control, Environmental response, with emphasis on safety. Health); and This team is acting under the authority of Council of (d) what action has been taken to remedy any Ministers. complaints? (b)(iii) Please see above. (c)(i) The Police are the primary Government body Answer: (1) A total of six complaints have been received charged with public safety. They, in the future, will against the Health and Safety at Work Inspectorate of the be the principle Government body held to account for Department in the last two years. However, it should be transgressions or lack of emphasis towards safety. They pointed out that four of these complaints relate to the same hope, as I do, to work in harmony with events organisers. event. Members of the Constabulary are experienced in command (2) The current status of those complaints is that one and control principles, event management, in some cases risk investigation is ongoing and the other five have been assessment, but above all have a complete focus on safety, investigated and the Reports are with the Department’s Chief which is the remit provided to them from the Chief Minister Executive Officer. and the Department. (3) The complaints relate to the construction industry. (c)(ii) The Constabulary will encourage a harmonious (4) The action taken to remedy the complaints has included relationship and dialogue with events organisers and it is face-to-face meetings and discussions with the complainant hoped all will be willing to do so. Policy decisions will and the officer concerned. be taken, by the event organiser, and any advice will be documented. Where the Constabulary do not agree with a course of events concerning safety, and no agreement can be reached, they will have no choice but to withdraw the facility CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION of a Senior Police Officer, which would regrettably result in a contravention of the Road Closure Order – although this Director of Public Health consultant in Public Health medicine eventuality is, hopefully, unlikely. Annual salaries

37. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission: LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND THE ENVIRONMENT What is the annual salary of – (a) Director of Public Health; and Health and Safety Division (b) Consultant in Public Health medicine? Complaints against Answer: In order to ensure that my Department complied 36. The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Turner, to ask the with the Data Protection Act it was necessary to seek approval Minister for Local Government and the Environment: from the Director of Public Health and the Public Health Consultant to publicise their individual salaries. (a) How many complaints have been received against As a result, both doctors have invoked their right to decline the Health and Safety Division of the Department in the to give their consent to publish their salaries. last two years; However, I can publish the Consultant salary scale range, (b) what is the current status of those complaints; which is from £73,403 to £127,366. (c) what area do those complaints relate to (e.g. Additional payments may also be given, to reflect on-call Health and Safety at Work Inspectorate, Construction, arrangements and specialist responsibilities.

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Nonetheless, there will be an opportunity for this topic Orders of the Day to be discussed at the half day briefing for Hon. Members in respect of matters relating to the Department’s works and services, which is taking place very soon, sir. Preservation of war memorials Statement by the Chief Minister The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell.

The President: So we turn, Hon. Members, to Item 3 Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. on the Order Paper which is headed, Preservation of war I know that I am limited to question the Minister on this memorials, Statement by the Chief Minister, please. but can I ask him, bearing in mind that the motion which was approved in January this year was for you to go away The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Mr President, thank and look at this and you have explained the complexities of you for giving me the opportunity to make this Statement with the situation, you have merely said in your statement that regard to the resolution that the Council of Ministers consider you will report in the near future. Can we have a timescale, the establishment of a suitable body, or a board of custodians, please, of when you will report because you were already tied for the preservation of war memorials. to reporting today and you are putting it off for a date to be Members may recall that, at the April sitting of Tynwald, announced whenever? I was hopeful that the Council of Ministers would be in a position to report to Tynwald at this sitting. I am confident that The President: Mr Teare. Members will recognise the importance of taking as much time as necessary in moving this forward to ensure that whatever The Minister: I appreciate the Hon. Member’s concerns. we put in place is focused and effective in preserving our war She is quite right to pick me up that there is no date here. memorials’ heritage for this and future generations. The position is very complex because, if I could give this In this regard, Hon. Members will be aware that Hon. Court a quick overview, the total cost, we costed it out to the Preservation of War Memorials Working Group has £25.2 million. Now, to fund that would require a 3.31 per cent commenced an extensive internal and external consultation increase in National Health Insurance Contributions across exercise on behalf of the Council of Ministers. The the board, plus £100 co-payment from residents. So it would consultation exercise has a closing date of 8th August 2008 be very difficult to finance and, really – and I am also aware and, following consideration of any points raised, I am hopeful that the United Kingdom Government have been working on that the Working Group will be in a position to present its this for some time and I am sure Hon. Members would have report to the Council of Ministers in September. Therefore, read in the national press that a further consultation exercise is I would anticipate that the Council of Ministers would be being undertaken in the United Kingdom – I would welcome in a position to report to Tynwald at either its October or the opportunity to fully consider their views and opinions November sitting, sir. before reverting to this Hon. Court. It is not an easy one, it is a very complex subject and unfortunately it does require a considerable amount of work, Mr President. Nursing homes: need for retirement planning Statement by the Minister The President: Mr Gill, Hon. Member. for Health and Social Security Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane, The President: We turn then to Item 4, Hon. Members. I apologise if I am on the wrong tack here, but could the This is an Item which is headed up, Statements by the Minister confirm that the briefing note he has had circulated Minister. There will be two, Hon. Members, dealing first with and the speaking notes are signally different from one another nursing homes. Hon. Member, Mr Teare. and could he explain that, if that is, indeed, the case and could we have your indulgence, Mr President, to accept the briefing The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr note into Hansard as a matter of record, sir. Teare): Thank you, Mr President. At the sitting of this Hon. Court held in January, following The President: Mr Teare. a debate upon a motion introduced by the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, I undertook to report back to the Court The Minister: As far as I am aware, sir, I have read from in respect of the possibility of introducing a Long-term Care the copy of the notes which have been circulated to Hon. Social Insurance Scheme here on the Island, akin to that which Members. (Interjection) currently operates in Guernsey. Hon. Members may recall that, in expressing my hope that The President: Certainly not the same, Hon. Members, I would be able to report to the May sitting, I did allude to but I am quite confident, in fact, the statement which Mr this being a very tight timetable. I then informed the Court at Teare made would have been picked up by Hansard and will its May sitting of the considerable research and investigation be published, Hon. Members. the Department has had to undertake. I also referred to the In that case, Hon. Members, I think it is an appropriate time financial modelling which was being undertaken which is at which we made a break. When we resume our deliberations required to fully inform consideration of how such a Scheme on the Order Paper, Hon. Members, the first to speak will be might be structured in the Isle of Man. This work continues, Mr Teare with his second statement. Mr President, and the Department does require further time Thank you. Two thirty, Hon. Members. to fully investigate the likely costs and benefits of such a Scheme and will, of course, report to this Hon. Court when The Court adjourned at 1.00 p.m. those detailed investigations are fully concluded. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.

Preservation of war memorials – Statement by the Chief Minister Nursing homes: need for retirement planning – Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Security Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1165 T125

North West Primary Health Care forward meet all the needs expressed to me. It also caters for Statement by the Minister demand in areas where growth has taken place and is likely to for Health and Social Security take place. It reflects the new scenario in Jurby and protects, as far as possible, the existing service in Kirk Michael. The The President: Please be seated, Hon. Members. proposals also address the issues relating to Peel and Ramsey Hon. Members, we have reached Item 4 on the Order Paper surgeries. and it is the second statement from the Minister for Health and Thank you, Mr President, for allowing me to make this Social Security. Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Teare, please. statement.

The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr The President: Hon. Member, Mr Crookall. Teare): Thank you, Mr President. When I assumed my current role in the Department of Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. Health and Social Security, there were apparently very severe I would just like to take this opportunity to thank the budgetary pressures. In the face of these difficulties, I made the Minister, in making this statement, for providing for Peel decision to put a proposal to build a new general practitioner what he has been promising to look at for a long time, or the surgery in Kirk Michael on hold until a full review of issues Department has been promising a long time to look at. It is and options could be undertaken. I was advised that to proceed indeed very necessary and essential and I hope that it can be in Kirk Michael would involve the Department committing progressed with the urgency that it desires and needs. itself to an annual subsidy of £300,000 for a period of five In saying that, it is not all doom and gloom for the Member years. This decision was finance related and not personal. for Michael, which I hope he will see that, having read that, It rapidly became clear that there were difficulties over there is provision there for Kirk Michael for the future and the entire north west area and, since that time, my colleagues also for Ramsey. and I have been working on ways of resolving the issues. The But again, sir, on behalf of the people of Peel, we thank problems which confronted us were that the Peel premises the Minister and the Department for looking at Peel and were too small to provide capacity for the growing population progressing this. of the area. The same problem was faced at Ramsey. Both Thank you, sir. premises were severely constrained and there was no room on the footprint of their sites for further expansion. In addition, The President: Hon. Member for Michael. the siting of the prison at Jurby had raised further issues which had been highlighted in Her Majesty’s Inspector of Mr Cannan: Mr President, can I… I believe we are to Prisons’ Report. ask questions on statements, not make political statements I was also aware that there are plans to increase the size of like the Member for Peel. the residential development at Jurby and, additionally, some Mr President, can I ask the Minister, how he sees Jurby parties in Kirk Michael are resisting further growth in that as a growing community when the population there is 500 area. It is quite clear, therefore, that a north west area solution people? The population in Kirk Michael is four times that had to be sought, rather than a piecemeal approach. number. The Commissioners of Kirk Michael have already Turning to Peel and working with the Hon. Member for written to the Chief Minister, asking to have a meeting with Peel, Mr Crookall, the Department considered various sites him and the – oh, yes, they have, I have got a copy of the and recognised the community’s desire for a surgery as close letter! (Several Members: Oh!) – and, well, perhaps the as possible to the centre of the town. This has been very mail in your Office is not as efficient as it ought to be – the difficult, but with the co-operation of the Trustees of the Corrin Commissioners are wholly dissatisfied with what is on offer. Home, to whom I very grateful, a plan has been worked up There are no premises in Kirk Michael, only a grace and favour to locate a new general practitioner surgery on part of their premises that have been allowed a further two-year extension site. This will release funds to the Trustees to enable them to on a temporary basis. upgrade their facility and make it fit for the years ahead. Does he realise – or perhaps can he tell me – where is I have also spoken to both Jurby and Michael Parish this big development in Jurby, because at the moment the Commissioners, who have been prepared to listen and join population is declining? in the discussion. It is clear that both parties would welcome a new GP surgery in their area, but this was not feasible and, The President: Minister. with the demands for healthcare provision for the prison and also the growing community in Jurby, the decision has been The Minister: Thank you very much. made to make provision within a new community centre in I am surprised that the Hon. Member for Michael is not Jurby for a GP surgery. This will be operated as a sister surgery aware of the Government’s plans for further residential in by the Ramsey general practitioners, and no additional set-up Jurby, and as part of his support for the prison development funding will be required. – which was very welcome to Government, I have to say – we I have also agreed with the Ramsey general practitioners have to provide a service in the area. that they will continue to provide a service in Kirk Michael As far as the grace and favour premises that we currently… for the time being and, if further development takes place, or that the general practitioners operate out of in Kirk Michael, the Commissioners will liaise with the developer to provide a I hope that he will use his best endeavours as one of the community centre as part of the planning gain. Included within trustees of the Kirk Michael Elderly Homes Trust. So I am sure the centre there would be a provision for a general practitioner that he will use his best endeavours to ensure those premises surgery, which the Department will fit out. This, hopefully, are still available to the Department. should ensure the continuation of a surgery in Kirk Michael, I would like to just briefly mention Mr Crookall, thank which I hope will allay the fears of the neighbourhood. him and also mention that this is a demonstration of what a I feel that the solutions which the Department has brought constructive dialogue can achieve, sir.

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The President: Hon. Member for Michael. Mr Cannan: Mr President, the delegation was established at the sitting of the Court in January with the Mr Cannan: Will the Minister have a constructive following remit: dialogue with the Commissioners of Kirk Michael? And does he not realise that half the population of Kirk ‘…that a delegation of three Members, together with Her Majesty’s Michael have to use Peel; the other half are registered with Attorney General (or such member of his Chambers as he may nominate), should meet with those persons they deem appropriate Ramsey; and for a new surgery at Jurby would require a in relation to the use by the public of the footpath proposed to be the 1½-hour bus journey there and a 1½-hour bus journey back subject of an Inquiry to ascertain whether the matter of the public’s – probably, and including waiting time at the surgery, a access can be satisfactorily resolved without the need for a statutory four-hour journey? Inquiry, and to make recommendations to the sitting of the Court in April 2008 before this debate is resumed.’ The President: Minister. Subsequently, the delegation composed of Mr Cregeen, The Minister: The Hon. Member has made a very good Mr Malarkey and myself was elected and the delegation in point; but could I also bring to this Hon. Court’s attention turn elected me as their Chairman. We were joined by Her the petition which was lodged to support the general Majesty’s Attorney General and a member of his Chambers. practitioners’ surgery in Kirk Michael. From residents in At the April 2008 sitting of the Court, the adjournment of the Kirk Michael, who would be most affected, there are 265 debate which gave rise to the establishment of the delegation who signed in favour – 16.2 per cent of the population of the was again moved, to be resumed at the July 2008 sitting. area, according to the last census. Therefore, by extension, That further adjournment followed a statement which I over 80 per cent of the population had no strong views on had made at the start of the April sitting, explaining that the the matter. delegation had already had a number of meetings on their own or with others and had visited the site on three occasions. The President: Hon. Member for Michael. Considerable work had been done by the Attorney General’s Chambers and we had had valuable help from the Department Mr Cannan: This, Mr President, is a distortion of of Transport. We hoped then to report to the July sitting of statistics! People who signed the petition were signing on Tynwald with positive and satisfactory proposals. behalf of the family. A wife did not then ask her husband to Since April the delegation has met several times more and come down, her son to come down, her daughter-in-law to I am pleased to say that a substantial measure of agreement come down. They were signed on behalf of the families as in principle on the way forward, which we would be happy to they visited the chemist shop, and for the Minister for Health commend to this Court, has been reached and that matters are to distort those figures, as he continually does with all other now the subject of detailed negotiations. We regret, however, statistics he brings to this Court – that this has not proved possible to bring matters to the point at which a full and detailed report with proposals can be put The President: Are you asking a question or making a to the sitting for the approval or otherwise of Hon. Members. political statement, sir? (Laughter) To have done so, would have been to risk placing before the Court a way forward in which all the foreseeable difficulties Mr Cannan: I am asking him why he is distorting the had not been properly addressed. It is our intention that a figures when they were signed on behalf of families. presentation should be made to Members before the October 2008 sitting and that a set of proposals will be available at The President: Minister to reply, then. that sitting for full debate. Again, I would ask Hon. Members to appreciate that The Minister: I can only respond to the information matters are now at a critical stage and that it would be as it is presented to me, and I was told there is a petition inappropriate to go into further detail at this time. here with x number of signatures on it and then, of course, I would not unnaturally be expected to have a look at the The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. background and to determine, from the population in the area as demonstrated, as vouchsafed for in the last census, Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. how strong the support was. And that is the risk when people I am delighted to hear the explanation from the Hon. undertake petitions, sir. Member for Kirk Michael, Chairman of the delegation, but I would ask whether he can give us an assurance that when he comes back to October Tynwald – I mean, I see it is here in his speech, but I am sure we have had these assurances Footpaths at Langness before – we had an assurance that this was a relatively Statement by the Chairman of the Delegation straightforward matter and would only take a mere three months. Three months later – three months beyond that 5. Statement by the Chairman of the Delegation (Mr mere three months, here we are again being told, yes, well, Cannan). we are at a very delicate stage and it will not be that much longer now. The President: Hon. Members, we turn then to Item 5 I would be most grateful if the Hon. Member can give on the Order Paper. us assurances that the continuing failure of the delegation I call on the Chairman of the Delegation of the Langness to actually reach a conclusion will, in fact, end in October footpath, Mr Cannan. 2008.

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The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member. Manx Servicemen and Servicewomen Veterans exposed to nuclear testing Mr Cannan: Mr President, I am sure the Hon. Member Report accepted and recommendations approved for Rushen appreciates that these delicate negotiations include lawyers, not only on our side – that is the Attorney 6. The Chief Minister to move: General – but the lawyers for the other side and lawyers do not always move as quickly as can be expected. However… That the Report of the Council of Ministers ‘Manx however, I am able to say that a lot of progress has been Veterans Exposed to Nuclear Testing in the 1950s and made and we are now down to a point of fine detail and I am 1960s’ be accepted and the following recommendations confident that matters will come to a conclusion one way or approved – the other before October and I am reasonably confident that (a) That the Department of Health and Social Security they will come to a conclusion that enjoys majority support take action to identify those nuclear test veterans who of this Court. wish to receive support. (b) To make one-off tax-free ex gratia payments of The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. £8,000 to each of those veterans exposed to nuclear tests in 1950s and 1960s, who are resident in the Isle Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. of Man and in respect of whom sufficient evidence is Given that this is a delegation and not a select committee produced to verify their claim. Such ex gratia payment and therefore subject to the secrecy rules that surround is in recognition of their contribution and the consequent the work of a select committee, perhaps the Chair of the mental anxiety they experienced. delegation could share with us the points on which agreement (c) That no further assessment is to be made of has been reached and which are not, therefore, subject to the circumstances or need to qualify for the ex gratia payment detail, but the points on which there was consensus between and that the ex gratia payment will be disregarded for the two parties, sir. the purposes of any benefit entitlements. (d) That as there is no financial provision for these The President: A bit difficult. Mr Cannan. payments, a motion should be submitted to July 2008 Tynwald authorising Treasury to apply from the General Mr Cannan: As I have said, Mr President, it would be Revenue for the year ending 31st March 2009, a sum inappropriate to discuss in detail – (Interjections) in detail not exceeding £96,000, being the amount the required the fine print that is now in confidential negotiation between for the purpose of making ex gratia payments of £8,000 lawyers on both sides. per person to the individuals already identified and to cover other applications if additional individuals The President: Mr Quayle, Hon. Member for Middle. become known as a consequence of enquiries to identify individuals who qualify under the terms of the ex gratia Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. payment award. I just wonder if I may ask the Chairman of the Delegation as to what he envisages now happening in relation to Item The President: So we move, then, to Item 6 on your 15 on the Order Paper. Order Paper and the Chief Minister is to move, please.

Mr Cannan: I cannot speak for the Minister, but I suspect The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr that he will ask for a continuation of the adjournment until President. the October sitting. Mr President, at the January sitting of Tynwald, Tynwald resolved that the Council of Ministers should make available all appropriate medical tests immediately to all Manx servicemen and servicewomen who were subject to radiation BILLS FOR SIGNATURE exposure in the 1950s and 1960s in atom and hydrogen bomb tests and to consider a method of providing an ex gratia sum Corruption Bill 2008 to those surviving members and to report back no later than Agricultural (Miscellaneous Provisions) the July sitting of this Hon. Court. In the intervening period, the Director of Public Health Bill 2008 has progressed that part of the resolution matter which related Town and Country Planning to all appropriate medical tests being made available to all Manx servicemen and servicewomen who were subject (Amendment) Bill 2008 to radiation exposure in the 1950s and 1960s in atom and hydrogen bomb tests, as provided under the EU directive. The President: Now, Hon. Members, before I move on to The Report of the Director of Public Health is included at Item 6, we have three Bills for signature, Hon. Members: the Appendix A of the Report before Hon. Members today. For Corruption Bill; the Agricultural (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill; and the Town and Country Planning (Amendment) Bill. information, I would like to just comment briefly on the EU They did not come back from the Department of Justice in directive referred to in the resolution, which was in fact EU time to be included on the Order Paper. Hon. Members, Council directive 96/29/Euratom and which concerns: are you happy that they are to be circulated for signature? ‘laying down basic safety standards for the protection of the health of (Several Members: Agreed.) workers and the general public against dangers arising from ionising I see they are on their way. Thank you, Hon. Members. radiation.”

Footpaths at Langness – Statement by the Chairman of the Delegation Bills for Signature – Corruption Bill 2008 : Agricultural (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008 Town and Country Planning (Amendment) Bill 2008 Manx Servicemen and Servicewomen – Veterans exposed to nuclear testing – Report accepted and recommendations approved 1168 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day

In doing so, I would clarify that this directive is, however, have with our armed forces, and that means that we treat… not applicable in the matter of nuclear test veterans, as [Interruption] I think, in this instance, the Chief Minister, Euratom does not apply to defence activities and nuclear who I happen to know… [Interruption] the welfare of the testing does. As Hon. Members will be aware, they fall servicemen very much… long before he came into this under the category of defence activity. This position has Court, with the British Legion and his association with that been confirmed by the European Court of Justice in two organisation, so I think the Chief Minister and the Council separate judgments. of Ministers are reflecting Tynwald’s wishes and the Manx In respect of complying with the terms of the Tynwald British Legion’s wishes in dealing with our people fairly. resolution regarding medical tests, Hon. Members will note I would say that, without going into the rights and the the Report from the Director of Public Health, that there wrongs of the case, we in Tynwald, as I said in January, have is some difficulty in identifying what the appropriate tests a responsibility – because we passed the National Service might be, given the very wide range of conditions that could Act in 1946, making it mandatory for National Service for be screened for. Furthermore, the need of each individual men in the British Army – to have a duty of care and that, I will be different, and anyone who did choose to undertake believe, is what is being reflected here today. any testing, identified as suitable, would need to be properly I have to say also a public tribute and thanks to Dr counselled. Kishore. I was with him when he interviewed servicemen, As part of his research into this matter, the Director of veterans and the wives of a few of those members and Public Health also met with some of the veterans resident his interview was sympathetic, searching and very much on the Isle of Man who were exposed to nuclear testing and appreciated – greatly appreciated by those veterans. They has assessed that these veterans experienced considerable were able to recall and give evidence to Dr Kishore of what anxiety as a result of these tests. Moreover, the lack of official actually happened. recognition, ‘adds to their mental distress’. It has been agreed, I genuinely believe that this is only a token payment. No therefore, that the Department of Health and Social Security amount of money, as I said, will actually compensate, but will work closely with the GPs of those veterans who wish I do take on board what the doctor said regarding the tests to receive support, ensuring they are fully supported and – the medical tests. And it is difficult and it is, if you like, provided with relevant medical literature on radiation-related not a once… there is no cure-all. But with the assurance of illnesses. Case notes would then be flagged, so that any the doctor that their medical… if anybody wishes to have a radiation-related illness can be rapidly detected. medical that they will be accommodated within the system Turning, then, to the matter of an ex gratia payment, the Tynwald debate in January 2008 was strongly in favour of of the National Health, greatly reassured those veterans and making ex gratia payments to Isle of Man veterans, with greatly reassured me. So I have no difficulty with accepting the precedent of a one-off tax-free ex gratia payment made that part of the Report that is put here towards us today. to former World War… Sorry, I will just read that again, There comes a time when you move a resolution in this Mr President. Court and you feel that there is genuine and sometimes Turning, then, to the matter of ex gratia payments, legitimate opposition to it. I found no opposition to that, and, the Tynwald debate in January was strongly in favour of much more importantly, I have to pay tribute to the Chief making ex gratia payments to Isle of Man veterans, with Minister’s Office for the way in which they have expedited the precedent of the one-off tax-free ex gratia payment this matter. I have not received one bit of negativity or feet- made to former World War II prisoners of war held in Japan, dragging, in any way, shape or form, and it is nice to be able which was approved by Tynwald in February 2000, being to get up here and say that the Government are responding, highlighted by a number of Members as an appropriate not only to the wishes of this Court, but to the Manx people, scheme to follow on this occasion. Having taken into account and I hope the Court will support it unanimously. the assessment of the Director of Public Health in relation to the mental anxiety experienced by these veterans, and having The President: The motion I put, Hon. Members, is that reviewed the terms of the scheme established for former printed on your Order Paper. World War II prisoners of war held by Japan as a method for Do you wish to reply, sir? payment, the Council of Ministers recommends that a one-off tax-free ex gratia payment of £8,000 should be made to each The Chief Minister: I think it would be appropriate, if of those veterans exposed to nuclear tests in the 1950s and the you don’t mind, Mr President. 1960s, who are resident in the Isle of Man, and in respect of whom sufficient evidence is produced to verify their claim. The President: Yes, sir. Furthermore, the ex gratia payment will be disregarded for the purposes of any benefit entitlements. The Chief Minister: Just really to thank the Hon. Mr President, the ex gratia payment is in recognition of Member, Mr Lowey, who I know has been very close to the the contribution and consequent mental anxiety experienced veterans and has actually assisted in making sure that we can by those veterans. I therefore have the pleasure in moving understand the situation. I just put on record the Council of the motion standing in my name, sir. Ministers’ thanks to Dr Kishore for the way he dealt with this and I just hope Hon. Members will support it. We are The President: Hon. Member, Mr Lowey. pleased to have been able to meet our deadline. Thank you, sir. Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. It gives me pleasure to second the resolution. I think The President: The motion I put, then, Hon. Members, the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers are to be is that printed at Item 6 on your Order Paper. Those in congratulated on their proposals in this Report. favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The Can I say, we often hear about a concordat that we ayes have it.

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Manx Servicemen and Servicewomen there and neither were the scientists with the monitors. It was Veterans exposed to nuclear testing our boys and girls who had to face that. Ex gratia payment approved I would like to pay special tribute – and I am sure she will not mind me mentioning her – to Mary Carbery, who has 7. The Chief Minister to move: fought valiantly for years to have this kind of recognition, and the points that the Chief Minister has raised in his opening That Tynwald authorises the Treasury to apply from remarks and in the previous speech for the provisioning of General Revenue during the year ending 31st March this payment. She spent years, and certainly with the liaison 2009, a sum not exceeding £96,000, being the additional group in Westminster, with MPs there concerned with the same amount required for the purpose of making an ex gratia situation in that jurisdiction. The amount of work that that payment of £8,000 to each of those veterans resident in lady has undertaken and the efforts – I would say thousands the Isle of Man, in respect of whom sufficient evidence of hours of work probably, campaigning and so on, liaising has been produced that they were exposed to nuclear with Westminster, to-ing and fro-ing of letters, phonecalls tests in the 1950s and 1960s. canvassing me and certainly canvassing Mr Lowey, the Hon. Member of Council and others probably. So a great tribute to The President: Item 7. Chief Minister to move. her for her efforts and a recommendation certainly from myself for the Chief Minister to bring this back, Eaghtyrane. The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr President. The President: Reply, Chief Minister. Following on from the approval of Tynwald Court to the previous Item at Item 6, that the ex gratia payments of £8,000 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. should be made to each of those veterans exposed to nuclear I just thank the Hon. Member, Mr Bell, for seconding, tests in the 1950s and 1960s who fulfil the defined criteria, this and the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, for motion seeks financial provision for these payments. his comments. Mr President, reference was made in January’s debate that Again, I think we should count ourselves fortunate to there were eight such individuals living on the Isle of Man. be in a position to be able to undertake such recognition of Notwithstanding that there may be other individuals living people (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) who are Manx and who on the Island who have not yet been identified, and whilst suffered on such occasions. the final number of those eligible is not therefore known, it Again, Mr Lowey has been most helpful in endeavouring is anticipated that the final number of individuals who will to clarify a number of issues for me, and I think it is important qualify for the payment will be small. Further work will be to recognise that. I am hopeful that the recipients of these required, though, to identify recipients who fulfil the criteria payments will benefit from what we are doing today, and I am and therefore verify all claims prior to payment being made. sure we are all very proud of what they did on our behalf when This motion, therefore, seeks approval to a sum not exceeding they served in the British forces, as we are of those serving in £96,000 to meet any additional claims above the £64,000 places of conflict today who are Manx – Manxmen and women for the eight individuals already known. If there are more, – who are endeavouring to secure our future. of course, I would come back to this Hon. Court to ask for So with that, Mr President, I beg to move. additional funds. I therefore, Mr President, beg to move the motion standing The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is that in my name. printed at Item 7 on your Order Paper. Hon. Members, those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The The President: Hon. Member, Mr Bell. ayes have it.

Mr Bell: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Mr Henderson: Eaghtyrane. Airport control tower Expenditure approved The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. 8. The Minister for Transport to move: Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I could not catch your eye there, to perhaps try and second this one. That Tynwald – I, too, would like to add my thanks to what the Chief (a) approves the Department of Transport incurring Minister has managed to do here, but I would like to expenditure not exceeding £6,515,000 in respect of the specifically congratulate the Hon. Member of Council, Mr construction of an airport control tower; Lowey, in bringing the matter to our attention. As most (b) authorises the Treasury to spend out of the Capital people know here, it is a matter close to my heart as well Transactions Account during the financial year ending and, certainly, following on from my motion which I put to 31st March 2009, a sum not exceeding £2,615,000; and Tynwald on the ex Japanese prisoners of war, people should (c) approves of and sanctions borrowings not exceeding be in no doubt of my support for what is going on in here. £2,215,000 being made by Government, such borrowings The trials that went on in the Pacific in those times, to me, to be repaid within a period of 30 years. I find totally astonishing. But I do know one thing for sure, Eaghtyrane:, it was our men who were on National Service, [Ref: Item no. 8 under the heading ‘Transport’ on page and maybe some girls too, who were the ones placed on the 10 of the Isle of Man Budget 2008-09 and as detailed in boats and on the beaches to face the full frontal assault, while the Estimates of Capital Payments 2008-09 to 2012-13 on it was being let off a few miles away. Management were not page 59 of the Isle of Man Budget 2008-09]

Manx Servicemen and Servicewomen – Veterans exposed to nuclear testing – Ex gratia payment approved Airport control tower – Expenditure approved 1170 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day

The President: Item 8. Minister for Transport, Mr 360° view of the airfield and surrounding airspace is provided Anderson, to move, please. for the visual control room, which sits on top of the tower. The sub cab containing the required avionics and service The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Thank equipment sits below the visual control room, this being you, Mr President. a concentric shape around the tower, faced in aluminium Today I seek Tynwald approval for construction of cladding. The two storey base building is constructed in a the proposed new air traffic control tower, at a cost of simple form, using steel frames and the same aluminium £6,515,000. The proposed control tower is around 35 m. high, cladding. This building houses essential radar facilities, including the essential supporting accommodation located avionics and plant equipment, offices and workshops and in a two-storey building, facing the tower. The new tower staff training and welfare facilities. will be located in the optimum position, east of the terminal The avionics equipment is required to provide ATC building, adjacent to the cargo facilities. with safe, reliable and comprehensive communications The Isle of Man Airport has identified the need for the and surveillance. It includes radio intercom and telephone replacement of the existing control tower building, the main communication links with recording facilities, alerting reasons being as follows: systems, surveillance equipment, radar, in addition to all The age of the existing building: the building fabric is in the necessary servicing and monitoring equipment to ensure very poor condition and is time-expired. compliance with the regulatory requirements of the safety Working conditions for staff are poor. regulation group of the UK Civil Aviation Authority. As a consequence of the poor building fabric, and the The total scheme cost is £6,725,000, including a way it is laid out, it is becoming more difficult for staff to column 2 allowance for the design fees and early contractor operate in accordance with modern working practices, due to involvement of £210,000. The total capital cost is outside building age leading to human factors and Health and Safety the budget provision in the capital estimates which, for issues, for example, combined limited rest/administrative 2008-09, is £6,445,000 – and that exceeds the budget by areas and a lack of training facilities etc. £280,000. This additional funding is attributable to the rising From a Health and Safety perspective, there are cost of hydrocarbons and the price of steel, plus a change inadequacies which have already required Airport in approach to the construction of the tower not originally management to restrict access to some areas of the anticipated, in that the best method for the erection of the building. tower is to place all the work with a single sub-contractor. Building ergonomics are poor – in other words, the The proposed sub-contractor has worked on the Island building layout constrains the way in which the building is previously, erecting the power station chimneys at Douglas operated and any required modifications carried out. This and Peel, and leads the field in the practice of high-rise slip makes it difficult to support the increasing requirement for formation construction. They have also previously erected modern, robust, audited systems to be developed, while air traffic control towers at Newcastle and East Midlands expecting staff to provide a safety-critical professional Airports. The erection of the tower is a critical activity, and service. utilising this experience will ensure that quality, safety and Operationally, its location is not ideal. The building programme requirements are met. is located closer to the Castletown end of the runway, Value engineering has been carried out throughout the rather than the optimal position adjacent to the middle of currency of the project. The project is based on the most both runways. It is currently not possible to observe the economic construction methods and materials, chosen for touchdown point at the northeastern end of the runway. Air their aesthetic properties, performance and sustainability. traffic control presently rely on CCTV coverage to help The building is not extravagant in design or specification, ensure the runway is not obstructed. Additonally, its location and despite the final cost exceeding approved expenditure, does not allow optimum apron lighting. we consider the project offers the Manx Government value Whilst these inadequacies are presently managed by for money. appropriate mitigation, it becomes increasingly difficult The construction programme for the building is to comply with both the regulatory and best practice anticipated to be 60 weeks, which, subject to the necessary requirements, especially when revised or new procedures approvals, would mean that the building construction are under consideration. It is clear that even if the building would be completed around October-November 2009. The fabric were fully restored, the operational and space problems installation of the avionics equipment would be integrated stated would remain. There is, therefore, a strong case for the towards the end of the construction phase, allowing provision of a new air traffic control tower facility built to commissioning and staff training to be complete, to achieve modern standards. Working conditions for controllers would an operational date and regulator approval for the new tower be greatly enhanced, safety and operational efficiency would early in 2010. be improved, access and circulation would be improved and The transition from the old tower to the new tower building maintenance would be reduced. would be managed in a planned phase programme, including Those of you who attended the recent presentation will familiarity and training in the new facility for staff. The final appreciate that the proposed tower is functional, with an switchover would be planned as an overnight event with an elegant design incorporating modern avionic equipment to inbuilt reversion plan to allow operations to be maintained facilitate the safe, expeditious and efficient flow of air traffic from the existing tower in the event of any unforeseen to and from the Island. Both visual control and radar control difficulties. of aircraft would be carried out from the new tower in order A new air traffic control tower, purpose-built to modern to maintain the same level of service provision as currently standards, would dramatically improve the working exists. The new tower is of fair-faced, fluted concrete environment and would be the keystone to ensure the construction, with a glazed panel for the southern elevation. A provision of 21st-century air traffic services in the Isle of

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Man, in order to continue the Island’s long-standing and that are ongoing, that my hon. colleague opposite often goes excellent reputation for safe and efficient operations. A new on about, and I just do wonder what on earth is going on down air traffic control tower would be located in the optimum site here? Who is in control? And how come… The impression and would be fully compliant with all international and UK that I get: how come this Department can just hold its hand 78 Civil Aviation Authority practices. out for whatever project it feels like, the Treasury says yes, Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my and we see these multi-million-pound projects mushrooming name. all round the Isle of Man, at varying degrees? Yet come to a care home issue or other important issues, The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner. ‘Ooh, there are resource implications: resources are finite!’ We heard a fine example of that this morning from the Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. Health Minister. How finite and purposeful the management I beg to second and reserve my remarks. of resources had to be. Yet here we are: a double Rolls- Royce solution to something that, yes, we might well need The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen. refinements and so on, but do we really need this and at this cost? Well, l am not so sure we do, Eaghtyrane. Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. It is with regret that I really rise to ask for an adjournment The President: Mr Anderson, speaking to the of this debate until October 2008. adjournment, sir. I therefore move: The Minister: Yes, speaking to the adjournment, I am That this debate be adjourned to the sitting of the Court just trying to nip this in the bud, really, because I think it in October 2008. is quite a straightforward issue and I would like to put the arguments. The reason is that, when I saw the plans, they have got a As far as the training room issue is concerned that training facility and I understand that, in the future, they are the Hon. Member for Malew and Santon makes, there is working towards another training facility down at the fire a mandatory requirement for Air Traffic Services (ATS) personnel to undergo competence continuation training and station. I believe that the two and a half weeks’ notice that we in unusual circumstances and emergencies. This can only got for a £6½ million project is insufficient time for it to be be conducted away from the operational positions. This evaluated properly, and this time would give the Department requirement is set by international regulations that we strive time to come back and make sure that the training facility is to follow and should include both lectures and simulation not duplicated; that it is value for money; that the firemen exercises to mirror the operation of the airport systems, as could use the same facility. far as practical. I have heard the argument that the firemen could not use To conduct this training effectively, the area in which the one over at the Air Traffic Control. If it was bigger, they this is to be carried out should be contained within the ATS could. If we approve this now, we have no chance of turning building. Only in this way can flexible opportunities to down the next training facility later on, because it will come facilitate training be identified which will avoid staff having back to us, saying, ‘Ah, well, we need this bigger facility.’ to attend for extra training shifts, which in itself would That is why I move that this debate be adjourned until require more air traffic controllers to be employed. October 2008. The training rooms shown in the plans will also be used Thank you. as a meeting room, not only for Air Traffic Control (ATC) and engineering, but other groups such as audit teams and The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. any visits from the UK regulators. In time, the plan is also to have dedicated radar simulation and replay facilities Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. installed in this room for both use in training and incident I am happy to second the option proposed by the Hon. investigation. Member, Mr Cregeen. The Hon. Member makes one or two points. He says… I And, further to that, Eaghtyrane, I am just wondering think he thinks we should be putting this in another facility what we have got ourselves into here. Again, we have somewhere else in the airport. (Mr Cregeen: No.) He does been told ‘we must have; we can’t operate without’ and in not, so I will not cover that point. fact, have we got another double Rolls-Royce solution to I will, though, comment about the potential which something that we could get away with, with a Ford Granada, adjournment has on this project. The costings that you have for instance? in front of you today are based on getting this operation under I think it has been mis-sold to an extent, Eaghtyrane, way very shortly. So the 60-week contract… If we adjourn and I think we could get better value for our money with a today and go to October, it will be substantially more than that, lot less than what we have got put on the table before us. and I beg this Court’s indulgence not to go for the adjournment We have seen this same Department, Eaghtyrane, try the this afternoon. same stunts elsewhere round the Isle of Man. It is not that long ago we were going to have a flyover pushed through The President: Mr Malarkey. Blackberry Lane, through Summerhill Glen and into the middle of Glenside, amongst other things. There is a huge Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. traffic island coming for the Quarterbridge sometime soon I support the adjournment debate here this afternoon – more millions. because, once again, I am gravely concerned that more money We have seen millions spent on the project for the is going to the Airport. passenger lounge down there. We have got the RESA issues I am not disputing the fact that safety is priority, but I

Airport control tower – Expenditure approved 1172 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day am concerned that we are getting value for money. The issue Treasury. regarding the training ground and what may be coming to us in I would just like to wind up by saying, you know… the near future about more money required for the fire station (Interjection) Well, Members, do consider this… don’t take makes me really wonder when we are showing a 10 per cent it on a light note. Look at what you are getting for it. Look decrease in last month’s figures over last year and increasing what it is going to be for the future. oil prices. Fewer people will be able to afford to fly, because of This is a window at the Airport. It could have been the Sea fuel prices, so we are going to end up with the most expensive Terminal. It could be safety measures down there, but you have best runway and equipment in the world, and nobody is going got to look at it and I would ask that Hon. Members really to be able to afford to fly into it. In the meantime, I cannot get put their views to one side about some of the red herrings that central heating for £8,000 up in Hillside Avenue, or £200,000 are flashing about. to kit out the Alcohol Unit. I believe that this Government, at times, get its priorities The President: Chief Minister. totally wrong. It seems to be if you work in the DoT we will throw money at you in this Government, time and time again. The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. In principle, I think we do need a new tower – I do believe I would just like to start by saying to Hon. Members that we do – but it does not need to have gold knobs on it and be if you adjourn something there has to be a real good reason the best in the world, or the greatest thing, or the hype they to adjourn, and that reason really should be because there are actually giving it at the moment. I think we have to have is something of great uncertainty within the project that is a little rethink about this. before us. We have not really had enough notice. We have had a I would make the point I do not really see the point that presentation, but not enough time to digest where another one Department may be very effective in developing its £6½ million of taxpayers’ money is going. capital programme as a reason to adjourn something. I can say that when I was Minister for Transport – and I ceased The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. being Minister in 2001 – we had, in fact, identified and were working up this tower prior to my leaving that Department, Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. and it has been in their programme for the renewal of the Just rising to the adjournment there, I just wondered Airport infrastructure for a considerable period of years. whether I can take Members back to reality – those Members The Airport has been redeveloped and transformed in the who did not go to the tower and those that did go to this last 15 years – maybe 20 years now – from what it was, and particular tower and looked at the cramped conditions that it is very easy to forget how it was. We get people saying how were down there, (Several Members: Hear, hear.) the they value the condition of the Airport, and, in fact, for that difficulties that the staff are under to try and provide a service, matter, the Sea Terminal, which has been upgraded. This is not only to the Island population but to those planes that travel an essential part of the infrastructure of the Airport. past, I presume through our district as well, or through our The value-for-money issue, and Members know this from airspace. their own Departments… These things go through a number They need to be on the ball and we would be one of the of stages before Treasury will give concurrence to it. It is then first to complain if they failed in their particular duties. I would examined by the Council of Ministers. It is here now, finally, say to Hon. Members here today, although the scheme may to be examined by Tynwald Court, and I would say, ‘What look expensive, it does include a lot of equipment, which is is the adjournment for?’ The Hon. Member for Malew and expensive and anybody knows that has to buy particular pieces Santon has attempted to make it because he has only had this of kit for avionics, radar or whatever, things that are connected for what he sees as a short period of time. With the greatest with safety – and this is an issue that is connected with safety of respect, Mr President, half a day would do to go through there – at least £1.6 million of that is for the equipment, so this with officers of the Department to find out exactly what the tower itself is a lower figure. is going on, where the money is being spent, and the Hon. I wonder with Members – because we did have a number Member has had 14 days to do that. of presentations… The Airport director has been really open and honest, as far as I am concerned, in inviting Members Mr Cregeen: I did it! there to see the conditions that are down at the Airport at an early stage – and that was 2007, when here we are, 2008, The Chief Minister: So I would say that, if the Hon. and the scheme comes forward. The door is always open Member has done that, then he is either satisfied it is a scheme at the DoT. I know the Minister (Laughter) has had a lot of worth supporting, or it is a scheme not worth supporting. We people down there and looked at the scheme, and it is great have to make decisions here on behalf of the public, and if that people come along and test these things, but I do believe you adjourn it until October, you will add a six-figure sum that Members today need to support this because it is for the onto the cost of this project by that deferral and you will future of the Island. have achieved nothing. In the Minister’s presentation, the great value I see out of I would say to Hon. Members – and going back to the it is value engineering for those that are in the construction Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, and to the industry. That is the new technology that is coming forward, Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Malarkey – those issues where we take on contractors at an early stage and we seek that they have raised are immaterial to this. This does not early evaluations of the projects. It has also been tested for affect it, because the houses at Pulrose, that matter is being value for money, and that is a good thing, as far as I can dealt with by the Minister and that is a matter that is being see, when the box has been ticked – and the Minister has progressed; and on the other issue, as the Hon. Member for said it supplies value for money… (Interjection) No, it has Douglas North knows, in relation to care homes etc, we are been tested and that is the way (Interjections) … It has been talking about revenue issues and also, in fact, improving tested through the Department, it has been tested through the service.

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This is about a capital investment for the infrastructure of I would like to ask because, let’s make no bones about it, the the Airport, and all I can say is when I went round the tower designers get paid for the more they spend, not the more they many years ago, it was in a poor condition then. It is not an save. And so, therefore, I think we do had to have a breakdown acceptable working condition for anybody, and we need to of where the £6.2 million… and we have not had that today. replace it. If we do not do it today, we will do it tomorrow, Is it £1.2 … my good friend from Onchan, a Member of the and it will cost a lot more money. So I would urge Hon. Department – I’m sure with Airport responsibilities – said it Members to reject the adjournment. was £1.2 million for the radar. I think you will get it cheap if you are getting it for £1.2 million! The President: Mr Braidwood, Hon. Member. That leaves £5 million to be accounted for. Well, there is no land and we all know that the cost of building nowadays is Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. a third for the land, a third for the building and a third profit I will be opposing the adjournment, and, following on for the contractor. We have no land problems, so it is rather an from the comments that the Chief Minister has made, again, expensive tower. I know the tower, like the Chief Minister… the air traffic control tower was mooted when I was Minister I can virtually look out through my bedroom window and for Transport. can see it, but it is cramped. I would not say it is dilapidated, We are talking about… People keep mentioning value but it is cramped. Is it tall enough for the new extension? I for money. The control towers, which have been just don’t know. But what I do know is that I would like to know recently erected at Newcastle and the East Midlands… The the need for aluminium to be incorporated into the building. compatible cost in the Isle of Man… It is value for money. Is it designed to allow Manx contractors to contract for it? I It is a question we asked in Treasury, and figures came back hope that is the case. to Treasury. That was brought forward in the presentation I have just got a feeling it may be over the top, but I may to Members, Mr President. be wrong. Value for money is all fine and good, but when you If any Hon. Member of this Court has gone round the ask somebody to say if there is value for money all they will old control tower, quite rightly, as the Chief Minister has do is get the quantity a surveyor to say, you know, x plus y = mentioned, it is in a deplorable condition. (Interjection by z. So it is value for money! But is it value for money? Mr Cregeen) One of the reasons as well… We talk about The Chief Minister mentioned, you know, that it is capital investment: it is capital investment, but just because we have avionics: we cannot move the avionics and one control tower to pay for it over 30 years does not mean to say we have an to the new one. We would have to close the Airport down exorbitant price at the start for that commodity. I hope the for about a month to move. We have to have duplication on Minister can help me in some the points I am making about the avionics, and, at the same time, we are improving the the materials that are used, the height, the design – perhaps, avionics. All the time, there are efficiencies, advances in you know, that is the sort of information I think the Court technology, and we have to go forward on that premise. needs when we are discussing figures of this nature. Mr President, I hope Hon. Members will oppose the adjournment so that we can get on with the debate. The President: Are you talking to the adjournment, Mr Lowey? The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey Mr Lowey: I am talking to the adjournment… Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I have not made up my mind on the adjournment, but I The President: You have got a minute to go, sir! do know that £6.2 million needs to be discussed on the floor of this Court and I would say to the Minister – and to all the Mr Lowey: I have got a minute? Well, it will not take me Ministers – that substitution of meetings to give Members’ a minute to wind up, then. Thank you, Mr President. views are no substitute for giving the facts on the floor of We have started the redevelopment of the Airport which, this Court. hopefully, is long term. The Chief Minister and I remember Now, I was unable to attend the briefing there and so the Airport when it was a couple of Nissen huts and it was, I have got some queries and the opening remarks of the you know, Peter Poulsen exporting milk, just after the War. Minister do not answer those, so it will depend on what (Laughter) he says in his summing up. He said it was simple – design The Chief Minister: I don’t remember that! – well, the only thing that is not simple is £6.2 million. That is a big sum of money in anybody’s language. Now, Mr Lowey: You can’t remember that? (Laughter) I can. what I have to ask him – he said it was aluminium clad, the I can. tower – Is the tower too tall? People have spoken to me who The point is we are investing large sums of money in that work at the Airport say there is no need for the tower to be infrastructure. It has got to be right. I do not think it needs to as high as that. I wait for the Minister to tell me that it is a be over the top. I hope this is not over the top, because it does prerequisite height. seem to me you get ‘Brownie points’ in here if you spend a Do we need to have it aluminium clad? I remember when lot of money and not, if you like, spend it effectively. That is we did an extension of the Airport we put an aluminium roof the point I am trying to make and I want to know that what on and we then discovered that no Manx firm could… had we are being asked for today is necessary, effective, not over any skills in putting this aluminium roof on, so we had to the top, but will meet our requirements in the future. import labour from the UK to put the aluminium roof on it. and I just wonder why this – and it is not a cheap element The President: Mr Watterson, Hon. Member for to work in – none of the building materials are cheap, but Rushen. aluminium is certainly not one of the cheapest. Why have we got to have it aluminium clad? That is another question Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President.

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Unfortunately my notes for this are a bit like my head Mr Henderson: The Airport will shut. today, they have been all over the place, but there are a few things and I have listened to the various parts of this Mr Cregeen: The consultants down there, they must be debate and tried to weigh up in my own mind, whether rubbing their hands with glee with them: ‘Here we go, we’ve the adjournment debate is going to be an advantage or a got another training room, and next year we’ll have another disadvantage. In terms of the costs and the way that material one to design.’ As long as the DoT take this on board and do and labour costs, with inflation the way it is, and especially not come back, and if the Minister gives me a reassurance that fuel, I am pretty well aware what it is going to cost to delay he will not be coming back for another training room down at a project like this for three months. And that is something the fire station, then I am sure I will be happy, certainly, but I I have actually… that has reinforced my thinking, when I do not see why we should be wasting money on duplication. asked the Airport Director, Rapunzel in the corner there. I hope they will take these points on board. But what are we actually looking for here in terms of In the future, no doubt we will have a new radar coming delay? And it is really not… we are looking at, as I say, the up. I think it was about seven years or something before the size and scope and scale, maybe, of a training room, we are radar has to be… Five. So look out for another £10 million. looking at the cladding issue, whether the tower could be It is the Isle of Man. Let us not forget we are the Isle of five metres shorter if we used CCTV. The sort of costs we are Man; we are not Heathrow. (Interjection) No. Yes, we need going to incur over the next three months just do not stack a suitable Airport, but let us make sure it is fit for purpose, up to the value engineering exercise that you are going to and not the Rolls-Royce. save over that sort of time frame, because you are going to I beg to move, Mr President. have to save about £½ million over the next three months to stand still and that is really what is concerning me. The President: Now, Hon. Members, the adjournment What is not too late is for that value engineering requires 13 votes in the Keys and 5 in the Council, Hon. exercise to go ahead, but I think this Court, in order to save Members. We will go straight to the vote. As soon as the Government and the taxpayer money, probably needs to screen is lit, Hon. Members, you may cast your vote. give this the green light today and ask the Department to take into account the views that Members have raised and to Electronic voting resulted as follows: look at the issue of whether it needs to be aluminium clad, whether it needs to be, or whether it can be painted blockwork In the Keys – Ayes 4, Noes 16 effectively, whether you could get away with it being five FOR AGAINST metres shorter and use a similar sort of CCTV system there Mr Cregeen Mr Quirk and make those sort of value-for-money judgements. Mr Houghton Mr Earnshaw But in terms of a three-month delay, I honestly cannot see Mr Henderson Mr Brown today… the sort of ideas that are going round that Members Mr Malarkey Mr Crookall are concerned with, I cannot see that we are going to make Mr Anderson that much of a saving that would actually outstrip the cost Mrs Craine Mr Quayle increase over the next three months. Mr Teare So, on that basis, I really do not think I will be supporting Mrs Cannell the adjournment at this stage and I do think I will be Mr Braidwood supporting the motion as it stands. Mr Corkish Mr Shimmin Mr Watterson The President: Mr Cregeen, do you wish to reply? Mr Gawne Mr Gill Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. The Speaker We heard ‘red herrings’. Well, I think the only red herrings actually came from the DoT. We are all very much The Speaker: Mr President, with 4 votes for, 16 against, aware that the conditions that the air traffic controllers work the motion to adjourn fails to carry. in are poor. The control tower is poor. In the Council This is about poor design. We are talking about another – Ayes 1, Noes 7 training facility in the future down the fire station, a FOR AGAINST duplication. We seem to be duplicating things all over the Mr Lowey Mr Callister Airport, because it is like these little silo mentalities all over Mr Crowe the place. I am very much aware that the air traffic control Mr Downie Mrs Christian tower is a safety issue; I have no problems with that at all. Mr Waft I think what the DoT has to take on board is that it is not Mr Butt just a case of coming forward with two and a half weeks, Mr Turner saying: ‘Well, if you are going to delay us, it is going to cost us millions’. It is no excuse for poor design and poor The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, with 1 consultation. for and 7 against, it fails in the Council also. The move to Yes, the door is always open, but we only got this plan adjourn fails to carry. two and a half weeks ago. At least on the RESA we knew Hon. Members, we revert to the debate. Mr Callister, where we were going, because we had months, if not a year, Hon. Member of Council. seeing where it was going. This has been dropped on us and told, ‘Vote on it. If you don’t vote on it, then…’ Safety Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. issues again! I was not going to raise issues in this debate at all, apart

Airport control tower – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1175 T125 from one, but I would say that, as an air traveller, I want Heritage meeting and we took the opportunity after that landing and take-off at Ronaldsway to be 100 per cent, and (Interjection) to take in the control tower as well, and I if this tower has to be three and a half times the height of this have to say it was quite an eye-opener to see the facilities Chamber, which is just about what it would be, then if it has that were there. to be that, that is for Airport safety, presumably. (Interjection If we take into account the equipment, many Members by Mr Quirk) (Laughter) of this Court will have recently seen the opening of some As for aluminium cladding, I think I suspect that of these new service centres for hosting, and the equipment Parkinsons will be well able to handle aluminium cladding which is hosted in these centres is in very sterile, well cooled today, and also it only applies to the octagonal top of the rooms, secure with various fire protection and electricity tower in any case. (Interjection) No, it is the top section, back-up. The avionics equipment in the current tower is in I think, yes. I do hope that there is no annual maintenance one of the rooms. Yes, it has got air conditioning, but it does required in the form of painting of this tower. We might need not have all the circulation that is required to extend the life steeplejacks to do that, if that is the case. of the equipment, so there is no doubt about it, the current The point I was going to make is in connection with the tower is well beyond its sell-by date. weather forecasters. In the existing tower, as far as I know, We are dealing with highly-skilled professional people until today they have relative proximity to the air traffic who are working in that building, and yet the facilities are controllers, and I think they believe that has always been an probably the poorest that I have ever witnessed in any of the important advantage to them, and I understand they are not Government buildings that I have gone round. When you going to be in the new control tower. I wonder if there has think about the Emergency Services Control Room, and then been consultation with the forecasters over this, and where you compare it to air traffic control, which is dealing with the will they elsewhere be placed? There is a suggestion that, in safety of thousands of lives, the two buildings are a million the time being, they will be in the old tower, but ,thereafter, miles away from each other in terms of facilities. where will they be and what system of communication will There was also a very interesting… although this is not they have with air traffic control? really part of why you should have the tower, but there was The other final point is that I hope this work over 60 an interesting issue over security, that the rigmarole that weeks will not cause delays or disturbance to passengers, the officers have to go through just to get to that current particularly flight delays. I think we have enough of those site, because of where it is located, means that there are already. huge restrictions on what they can even bring in for general Thank you, Mr President. staff welfare, like lunch and things. They undergo the same security screening as passengers. So there are lots of other The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen. benefits from moving the tower away from the location where it is. Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. They do, of course… Although most of the air space It seems that the consultants have got away with it again! above the Isle of Man is controlled from elsewhere, they I hope, when they get this new control tower and all their do undoubtedly get a lot of aircraft passing through the air new electronics, that we are not going to be hit again for space which they have to deal with, so it is not just aircraft the back-up. Maybe we could be using the stuff that is in taking off and landing from Ronaldsway. I think there is the control tower now for back-up in case there is a major always a perception that the control tower is just that little catastrophe in the new tower, so that we do have use for the glass room on the top, when of course it is not; it is the wider electronics there. issues further inside the building, like the radar room, which Like the Member of Council has said about the deals with all the approach. One of my concerns is that if this forecasters, from conversations I have had, it looks like they new tower is built I would certainly like to see the old tower are going to the RTLC place in the terminal. demolished as soon as possible, because I think that building I just hope that we are going to get full value for money there is only going to prevent further growth of the Airport, out of this project, and in future that the Department will should we need it in future years. (Interjection) consult with Hon. Members a bit more in advance than they Mr Callister mentioned the Met Office, of course. The have this time, that it is not just bounced on us and ‘We are Met Office are dealing with pilots quite a lot, so I do not going to cost you millions of pounds if you delay us’. really see the benefit of moving them out of the main area. I hope that all the air traffic controllers do have the best They could communicate, probably quite easily, on the facilities that they can actually utilise, without having over- internal systems, but of course the facility that pilots have engineered everything just because it is the very best and with dealing direct with Met Office staff and forecasters the most expensive. is a well-used facility that even some airports do not have across the water, and the fact that we have got that and they The President: Mr Turner, Hon. Member. are there, on site in the main building, is undoubtedly an advantage to the pilots in gathering their data. Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. I think the whole issue about the fire station really is I am pleased that the adjournment did not carry, because completely irrelevant. I think the time to object to that – the that would only have increased the cost. Hon. Member for Malew and Santon – would be when that I would be interested to know, if the Minister has the financial motion actually comes to the Court. He will then be information to hand in his summing up, how many Members able to have his day to hit the red button in front of him. took the opportunity to visit the tower. I know Mr Lowey So I think, with that… I was grateful for the opportunity said he has been there in the last few years, but of course it to go round the tower, and I hope that Members will have appears that it has deteriorated even further. Myself and Mr thought long and hard before making their decision today, Downie were in the south of the Island at a Manx National and as I said, it would be interesting to see how many

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Members did take up the opportunity to have… Certainly, the on in the 1960s. (A Member: Two bits.) (Another Member: tour that we had was an extremely detailed and informative 1970s.) So I think it is important just to keep in mind that tour round the tower. what we are doing is continuing the renewal programme for Thank you. Ronaldsway Airport which was started… I think it was in Arnold Callin’s time, and has carried on since then. The President: Mr Malarkey. There was a strategy developed, which is available publicly, which shows how the programme would work over Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. a period of time, and the Department is more than happy to, I It might surprise the Minister that I am actually going am sure, explain it. Again, the Member for Malew and Santon to support the money for today’s scheme. I do have great is saying that he has only had 14 days. This has been through reserves about how much it is going to cost us, but I think, as the planning procedure, and as the Member for Malew and our colleague, Mr Callister, said, safety is the prime objective Santon, I am presuming if he was interested, he actually here, and I sit much happier with the £6 million for this than looked at the planning procedure and he saw the design. I do for the unnecessary runway extension. I feel that it is So again, coming back to this point, Mr President, it is something that the Airport does need. I have actually had a very easy to stand up here in Tynwald Court and just make tour of the area, yes. things out that really have very little foundation, and I just Mr Watterson did make a lot of sense in what he said. If really would say to Hon. Members nobody minds genuine we carry on delaying things, we are going to get less for the criticism of something that is trying to be done, if there is same amount of money, so I will be supporting it. something identified that we feel is wrong – and that is why What I will ask the Minister is, is this company who are we are here – but to just say things, when there is no basis undertaking the project registered in the Isle of Man? Will to it, I think is most unfortunate. they be employing registered Manx workers? Will they be Mr President, this scheme is an investment in the paying National Insurance under our Manx scheme? Will infrastructure of the Airport. I am sorry to say you do not they be paying tax? This is a chance for us to get some of our get a lot for £6 million these days. Whether we like it or revenue back. Or will it be, like a lot of the major projects not, once you get into civil engineering, once you get into undertaken over here, where an off-Island company gets it, construction of this type, you do not get a lot for it. Once they pay English tax, English National Insurance, and the you get into the technology that will go into this building, taxpayers get very little return for capital projects that we you do not get much for it. undertake? I will be interested to hear what the Minister has Again, when you see the working conditions that the to say about that. staff are working in in that tower… I am sorry, you need to improve it. They have been waiting a long time for a new The President: Chief Minister. tower to improve their working conditions, to upgrade it to the facilities we need, and I believe we have now got to The Chief Minister: Very briefly, Mr President, because it. This has not been rushed. It has been developed over a I am just a bit concerned at some of the comments being period of time, and I really believe that we, as a Department, made here today which might give an impression that the should make sure that this is done in a way that we know Government and Ministers and Members of Departments and will be acceptable to us. officers do not care what they do, as long as they just get what Rightly, we question the expenditure. That is absolutely they want. Nothing could be further from the truth. right for Members to do that – absolutely right – but I think, There are so many procedures in the way. I would say it in the confines of what we are doing, that is fine, but if frustrates Members, Ministers and officers of Departments you have not actually got something that really has some because of the length of the financial procedures and all the meat to it to question, it is very difficult for the Minister to procedures they have to go through to get to this stage, where respond. Mr Lowey, the Hon. Member of Council, made a scheme comes before Tynwald. These schemes have been some very pertinent points, which I am sure the Minister put in place, in the main, because of select committees in the will endeavour to answer. That is exactly right. Why are past, going back over 25 years, 30 years, who actually did you doing this? What is that cost for? That is exactly what express concern at procedures that used to be there which Tynwald is here for, because we are representing the public. were very lax. So there is extensive work undertaken to try Nobody objects to that. and get schemes worked up and get them to this stage. This is a major investment in the Airport. It will improve The Hon. Member for Malew and Santon said the safety, it will improve standards, and it will see us for the next consultants have got away with it again. It is just bunkum! 60, maybe 100 years, for this facility at the Airport, and it will I could say that. It has got no foundation, and he has got modernise it. We need to get on with doing that. no foundation, because if he had, he would have stood up I am pleased that Members did not support the adjournment, here and said what they had got away with. It is very easy but I am just really making the point: if you are going to to make these wild statements. If you are going to make criticise, please have something of foundation, because it is statements in the Court, justify them and explain what you a lot easier for us to answer it and really make sure the public mean, because otherwise it is hanging in the air and the then do not get confused as to what we are doing and why public outside think we are all here just throwing their money we are doing it. about, and we are not. I think it is important just to make that I beg to support. point because, again, it is not the first time we have heard it, Mr President. The President: Minister to reply. The tower that we have got, that we are going to replace, was built nearly 70 years ago. It was built for World War II. It The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. had one bit put on the top, (A Member: Two.) which was put I thank Hon. Members for their contributions and their

Airport control tower – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1177 T125 questions. Hopefully, I will be able to answer most of those we have not come under the budget, but I think I explained concerns. in my introductory remarks that is primarily to do with the First of all, can I thank my hon. seconder for seconding, recent escalation in costs of materials and hydrocarbons. Mr Turner. He went on to explain some of the detailed In relation to Mr Cregeen, who said that the tower was a information to do with the tower that, being a computer expert poor design, I do not believe it is a poor design. I think it is in that sort of field, he can understand why you cannot put very well designed and I think it is the best design we could that infrastructure in such a poor building. have within the budget we have come up with. If you see I would like to, maybe, start with Mr Lowey. I am sorry comparable air control towers in the UK, you can see they he was not able to attend the presentation and I would like to are all very similar, but if you compare the cost of our tower thank those Hon. Members that both attended the presentation with the most recent ones that have been built in the UK, I and those who have already come along to visit the control think it demonstrates that it is good value for money. It is tower, to see the state of the control tower for themselves. not over the top; it is exactly what we need for the situation I would like to make one or two… respond to one or two we have at Ronaldsway. of the issues that were raised by the Hon. Member of Council. In relation to Mr Cregeen’s reference that this has been He wanted a breakdown of the construction… of the total of pushed on at the last minute, this has been in the capital £6 million – £6.5 million. Well, £3.85 million of that cost is programme for five years. The Hon. Member was shown attributed to the construction; but the avionics, which is the round the Airport shortly after being elected as the Member expensive kit that we put inside, amounts to £1.79 million, and for Malew and Santon. It was highlighted to him at that we would have to upgrade that at some stage, anyway. On top stage that this was a very important project for the Airport, of that, we have, I think, about £0.8 million. That is to do with and he did make his reservations known at that time. I think site investigation. It is also to do with decommissioning of the most of his reservations have been answered in relation to old control tower; contingency costs are all built into that. So the reason for it. He does continue to raise concerns about that is, in a nutshell, the way the costs are broken down. the training issues, but what we have here is we have people The tower is being built to the lowest maintenance who are actually trained to engage in the operational roles schedule, so hopefully we will not have to maintain it. But in inside the control tower. It is not an office environment where relation to some of the issues he raised, I think one of them you can gather people together for a training exercise. It is was to do with the cladding. The cladding on the two-storey a specific training room that relates to the control tower. I base has been chosen for aesthetic reasons, and is comparable hope that he will bear that in mind when we actually come to other finishes that would provide an acceptable option. to vote. I know he has had many conversations over the last This building is the first view that people coming to the Isle few months with the Airport Director on this issue, so I do of Man have, actually. not believe it is being rushed on him at all, but I do thank the As far as the aluminium issue is concerned that he raised, Airport Director for her patience in trying to convince him that is the cover of the main top of the tower, and the reason over several meetings over the last few months. that is as it is is because of the lightness – the weight. It is I think I have covered the issue to do with the aluminium not very heavy and therefore it is the ideal material to put on cladding and the only [Interruption] with the clad is the sub top of the tower. cab, which sits on top of the building, and that is because There were a few other issues, and I hope I pick them of the weight issue. Why cannot the Fire Service share up as I go along, that Mr Lowey made. I think we have had that facility? Presently, the Fire Service conduct their own a good explanation that this building… present building training sessions on a daily basis. They need to be conducted is over 70 years old. It is well past its sell-by date. It is adjacent to their own facility to be instantly available to a very poor working environment for those people living respond to any emergencies. So I think you have to appreciate in it – or those people working in it. And also we have the distinctive different roles that people have to play. They to acknowledge that, at the moment, we have the Civil have to be in the location. Transferring them to another part Aviation Authority’s concurrence to operate out of that of the Airport would mean duplication of personnel. building, on the understanding that we are coming forward In relation to the issue that the Hon. Member, Mr with a new building. I think the point was made: why are Malarkey, raised in his second contribution – and I thank we spending… why are we building it to the specification him for his second contribution, even though I do not we are? That is because that specification is what the Civil agree with part of it – I would like to confirm that the main Aviation Authority expects of new buildings now. We have contractors for this project will be Parkinsons. Obviously, concurrence to operate out of our old building because they they will be subcontracting the technical bits to do with the know there is something else in the pipeline coming forward. aviation to a UK organisation, Beaman, who have already So they would not allow us to build anything less than the done work on the Island and also have a good track record specification we already have. in air traffic control towers. It is now in organisation. They The height of the tower, I think, was something else have delivered for us at the Airport before, and we have the Hon. Member mentioned. It is very important that the confidence in them. tower is of such a height that it actually has visible access Mr President, I believe I have covered most of the issues right round the airfield, and we would be compromising our the Hon. Members have raised. I think the height of the tower future if we did not have it at the height… It is the minimum was one that was raised. The main purpose of the building height we require to make sure that it can be operated is to give the most acceptable view to all manoeuvres in without CCTV, which happens at the moment. In a way, the Airport, and this includes runways, taxiways, aprons that is the CAA allowing us to do that, but they would not and the air space immediately surrounding the Airport. It is allow somebody building a new tower to keep an eye on the determined by compliance with international standards and landings using closed-circuit television. recommended practice and takes into account sightlines and I do not believe it is excessive. I am disappointed that angles to ensure that, as far as possible, an unobstructed

Airport control tower – Expenditure approved 1178 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day view is available to air traffic control at all times to conduct IRIS Regional Sewage Treatment Strategy operations in a safe and efficient manner. Lowering the Expenditure approved height of the proposed tower would compromise these factors and require the inclusion of mitigation to ensure that 9. The Minister for Transport to move: safety was not compromised. For example, at the moment, air traffic control rely on CCTV coverage to help ensure That Tynwald approves the Department of Transport that the threshold of the secondary runway is not obstructed. incurring expenditure not exceeding the sum of Mitigation by CCTV is no longer an acceptable method £1,964,000 in respect of:- of compliance with international standards, and I would (a) consultants’ fees for 2008-09 (£1,044,000); question whether we in the Isle of Man should pursue such (b) installation of IRIS main from Onchan to Baldrine a practice. A secondary consideration is also to allow further as part of the Isle of Man Water Authority’s main laying development of the Airport without compromising the view scheme (£800,000); and of the new control tower. (c) installation of IRIS main in Bowring Road, Ramsey With that, Mr President, I thank Hon. Members for their during road re construction (£120,000). comments. I hope I have covered most of their concerns, and I beg to move. [Ref: Item no. 30 under the heading ‘Transport’ on page 10 of the Isle of Man Budget 2008-09 and as detailed in The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put the Estimates of Capital Payments 2008-09 to 2012-13 to the Court is that printed at Item 8, headed up ‘Airport on page 59 of the Isle of Man Budget 2008-09] Control Tower’. Hon. Members, those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The President: We then turn to Item 9. Again, I call on the Minister for Transport to move. A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows: The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Mr President, at the October 2007 Tynwald, the Department of In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 1 Transport received approval to the IRIS Regional Sewage Treatment Strategy. This Strategy recommends construction FOR AGAINST of new regional sewage treatment works at Ramsey and Peel, Mr Quirk Mr Henderson together with their associated pumping stations, transmission Mr Earnshaw mains and Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition Mr Brown (SCADA) control systems, upgrading of the existing sewage Mr Crookall treatment works at Patrick, Dalby, Booilushag, Corony and Mr Anderson Mrs Craine Maughold, and the transfer of sewage flows from Laxey into Mr Bell the existing IRIS system at Douglas. Mr Quayle The estimated capital cost of the Regional Strategy is Mr Teare £85.1 million. Implementation is planned over an eight- Mr Cannan year period, with the intention that all of the works will be Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton commissioned and in service by 2016. In order to progress Mr Malarkey with the IRIS Regional Sewage Treatment Strategy, it is Mrs Cannell necessary for the Department to engage specialist consultants Mr Braidwood to carry out the required outline designs and environmental Mr Corkish impact assessments. Mr Shimmin Mr Watterson Mr President, to fulfil the requirements of the planning Mr Gawne and in order to achieve stage 2 of Government’s Capital Mr Gill Procedures, a wide range of activities must be carried out The Speaker by the various specialists on the project and these include: environmental impact assessments; land negotiations; The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the ecological studies and assessments of sites both onshore Keys, 21 votes for, 1 vote against. and offshore; outline design of sewage treatment processes; outline design of sewage sludge treatment processes; In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0 outline design of pumping stations to transfer the sewage to the sewage treatment works; route selection; hydraulic FOR AGAINST modelling and outline design transmission mains that Mr Callister None link the pumping stations to the sewage treatment works; Mr Crowe outline design of telemetry control systems that allow the Mr Downie Department to monitor the performance of the system; Mrs Christian Mr Lowey geo-technical studies to confirm the ground conditions at Mr Waft various sites; coastal modelling to determine the dispersion Mr Butt characteristics for any new sewage outfall; transport planning Mr Turner studies; odour studies; noise studies; electrical power studies; third-party consultation with key stakeholders, for example, The President: And in the Council, Hon. Members, Manx National Heritage, various Commissioners, various there are 8 for, none against. The motion therefore carries, Government Departments, including the Environmental Hon. Members. Protection Unit and the Manx Bird Atlas.

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Mr President, during this process, the specialist reduction in traffic management costs; a reduction in overall consultants will produce a series of reports that allow the construction period; and a reduction in disruption to the Department to reach the Capital Procedures stage 2 – outline travelling public using this busy route into Douglas. design – milestones, and these include: environmental Mr President, the Department’s Highways Division is to impact assessment reports which will include information progress with the construction – the reconstruction – of part on coastal processes, geology, marine ecology, freshwater of Bowring Road in Ramsey. In order to prevent abortive ecology, terrestrial ecology, visual impact, archaeology and work associated with excavation through a newly completed heritage, traffic access, geo-technical, noise, odours and road surface and to minimise disruption to the travelling air quality; coastal modelling reports for any proposed sea public, it is proposed the highway scheme incorporates the outfall; a sludge strategy report; odour management plans installation of the IRIS pipelines that will link the Vollan for all elements of the preferred options; an energy report pumping station to the Bowring Road pumping station and detailing the power requirements and options for energy the pipeline heading north to the Bride Road. The budget reduction, for example, alternative and renewable energy cost for this work is £120,000, being the installation of 400 sources; third-party consultations report; sewage treatment m. of 350 mm. diameter ductile iron transmission main, processes, options and design report; business case in respect associated telemetry ducts and junction boxes. of each of the preferred options; a Capital Procedures stage Mr President, I seek the approval from this Hon. Court for 2 report that encapsulates all of the above. expenditure of £1,964,000 from the allocation of £4 million In order to carry out all of this work, the Department allowed for expenditure on the IRIS regional programme for needs to appoint specialist companies, and these include: 2008-09 with the Capital Estimates. IRIS client project manager; planning supervisor for the west Mr President, I beg to move. and central catchments; planning supervisor for the north and east catchments; planning supervisor for the packaged The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. sewage treatment works; sludge treatment specialist; energy adviser; land agent; public relations adviser; technical Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. manager for the north and east catchments; technical I beg to second, sir and reserve my remarks. manager for the west and central catchments; technical manager for the packaged sewage treatment works; cost The President: Mr Speaker. manager for the north and east catchments; cost manager for the west and central catchments; and cost manager for The Speaker: Mr President, I very much welcome this the packaged sewage treatment works. project by the Department of Transport and the fact that they Mr President, the anticipated costs of these appointments have very sensibly taken the opportunity to liaise with the will be £1,044,000. As there is no provision within column Water Authority in terms of creating cost savings presumably, 2 of the Capital Estimates for 2008-09 for consultants fees by not having to excavate twice for the laying of pipework, to carry out this work, it is necessary to seek approval for Water Authority pipework and later IRIS pipework and also the expenditure of £1.044 million from within the allocation to do so in a manner that will minimise traffic disruption of £4 million allowed for expenditure on the IRIS Regional along the A2 main road. Programme 2008-09 from within the Capital Estimates. Can I ask a couple of points, though? Can he indicate Mr President, the IRIS Review Report concluded that when the pipe laying is actually going to take place? there was no site in lower Laxey or Baldrine for a sewage Reference is made in the overall sum for consultants’ fees treatment works, and therefore the preferred solution for for 2008-09, but can he indicate when, in fact, the pipe dealing with the sewage flows from these two catchments is laying is to take place? Is that following the work of the to transfer sewage from Laxey and Baldrine to Meary Veg consultants and therefore do we expect this to be after the for treatment. This involves the construction of pumping current financial year? stations and transmission mains to link into the Onchan Can I also ask him whether this represents an opportunity sewage system. to bring forward the IRIS programme, as far as my The Department has been made aware of the Isle of constituents in Baldrine in particular are concerned, inasmuch Man Water Authority’s proposals to install a water main as the current flows in the Baldrine area are through the short from the Whitebridge in Onchan towards Baldrine. As there Garwick outfall, which has been an undesirable situation for is synergy in the proposed route alignment with the IRIS many years. Does this mean, in fact, that at least some of transmission main linking Onchan to Laxey and to minimise the flows in Baldrine, certainly the Douglas end of Baldrine, disruption to the travelling public, it is proposed that the would be able to be connected into the system and taken IRIS pipeline is incorporated within the Isle of Man Water instead of to Garwick, onward to Onchan? Is that… it will Authority scheme. be the opportunity to do that. The budget cost for this work is £800,000, being the Can I further ask whether, given the very sensible and installation of some 2,000 m. of 200 mm. diameter ductile joined-up nature between the Water Authority and his iron transmission main, associated telemetry ducts, and Department, of the pipe laying work, whether the opportunity junction boxes, together with the reinstatement of the will be taken to look at extending the natural gas network in highway. The work will be undertaken by the Isle of Man the east of the Island during this particular excavation work Water Authority’s contractor, who will have the skill and to Baldrine, that from Douglas parts of Lonan can, in fact, expertise to lay the IRIS transmission main. The saving thus be connected to the natural gas pipework, because if that was accruing to Government by undertaking a scheme in joint the case, that also would be very welcome. working with the Water Authority are: a reduction in contract Thank you, Mr President. overheads; a reduction in overall trench width, resulting in savings of excavation, backfill and reinstatement costs; a The President: Mrs Craine, Hon. Member.

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Mrs Craine: Thank you, Mr President. part, might go some way to alleviate some of the concerns I, too, welcome this motion before us, not least because that might actually be generated by the people, not just of one of the smaller parts of the motion is, in fact, to do with Ramsey itself but of the whole of the north of the Island, who the installation of the IRIS main within the Bowring Road regularly, on a daily basis, use this route into town. in Ramsey. I have two reasons for welcoming this, and one But in a general sense, Mr President, I am delighted now is that, quite simply, the reconstruction of Bowring Road has that we are moving along this route. I have long preferred a been long awaited. For those who are familiar with the area, regional solution to IRIS, rather than a one-size-fits-all for the properties adjacent to the road are very old properties in the whole Isle of Man. I think this is now a far more sensible the town of Ramsey and it is well known that they actually step forward, and I am sure that I speak for the whole north shudder with the heavy traffic that goes up and down that of the Island that we look forward to a speedy conclusion road at the present time, and so the reconstruction of the road of this particular exercise. is welcomed. To be able to include within that scheme the installation of the IRIS main at the same time is gratifying, The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. because it takes us one step closer to being able to have a system in Ramsey and the north that deals with our sewage Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. without pumping it out sea, and that certainly is welcomed, I would like to thank the Minister for his detailed Mr President. remarks at the start of this debate. I shall be supporting the I think that the scheme itself does seem to be remarkably resolution. good value for money, but I would ask the Minister, in his I have got two queries. Does the capping of numbers, considerations, when the reconstruction of the Bowring which he referred to when he recited the number of people Road is done, if they would also take the opportunity to look he is going to employ to do various jobs, land acquisition… at the construction of the adjacent pavements at the same and it is a sign of the times, isn’t it, when we have a public time, which have raised some concern with neighbours in relations officer being appointed for a single project? I find the locality. that rather surprising, because I am often told… I know Thank you, Mr President. when you become Minister for Treasury you get a brain transplant and you go onto automatic: ‘essential’, as opposed The President: Mr Malarkey. to ‘desirable’. Those two words come to mind when we have PR officers, whether they are desirable or whether they are… Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. One will lead to another, you know. If you have a PR officer, Could the Minister tell me, in light of his Department’s he will want to publish things, and the Department has a bit decision now to include Laxey and Baldrine onto the Douglas of a proud record of publishing a lot of glossy material. I just section of IRIS and then onto Meary Veg, is Meary Veg wonder whether it is desirable or essential. The two queries actually big enough to cope with this, or will he be coming I am asking, really, are: are the numbers capped within the back in the future for an extension to Meary Veg treatment Government capping figures, or are they going to be taken plant for further expansion? on short-term contracts? The rest of it… We have started the road of all-Island on The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Bell. the sewerage. We have had to change, and I think, like the Minister for the Treasury, I do believe that the regional one Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. will be better than trying to squeeze it all in, as we were, into First of all, I would like to endorse the comments of my Meary Veg. I accept nothing comes cheap. hon. colleague in welcoming this proposal for Ramsey and Hon. Members, if I may reflect on the last thing I said echoing her comments that it is going to be very gratifying about the last Item we dealt with on this Agenda Paper, it to a great many of us who have been trying to get Bowring is a costly exercise, as the Chief Minister said, but if I can Road reconstructed now for quite some time. refer you to the Channel Islands, we built an Energy from That side of it, Mr President, will be very welcome, but Waste Plant and we bought it for £44 million. Jersey have just we have to recognise though that Bowring Road is the main decided to build an Energy from Waste Plant for their island, artery from the whole north of the Island into Ramsey, and and it is going to cost them £104 million. So, in the space it funnels in basically over that one bridge at the Bridge Inn. of, what, five or six years, the price has more than doubled. So for the duration of this work, although it is accepted that So, on reflection, the costs that we have done for completely it has to be done, it is going to be extremely disruptive. So I restoring what I would call the Victorian infrastructure of would just ask the Hon. Minister if he could make sure that sewerage, while it may seem an awful lot of money now, Ramsey Commissioners in particular are fully consulted on in five years’, 10 years’ time, it will look like a very wise this, that adequate publicity is given in advance, so that the investment. travelling public in particular realise what is going on. I will be supporting the Minister on this one. I just wonder as well, Mr President, for the duration of this work, which could be at least several weeks, possibly The President: Mr Quirk. longer, whether some thought could be given to alternative traffic management in that part of the town to try and alleviate Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. the pressure which inevitably is going to focus on the Bridge I would go amiss, really, without encouraging all Members Inn junction with North Shore Road, perhaps even to the to support this and I am going to be fairly brief, Minister. I point of reversing the traffic flow on the swing bridge for just want to put on record my thanks to – the Member who a short period of time to provide an alternative route from enjoys, really, and my team at Meary Veg, which is only a the north of the Island to bypass what is going to be quite a small team… and put on record and on Hansard today the severe bottleneck for quite some time. I think that, at least in thanks to Peter Winstanley. (Mr Earnshaw: Hear, hear.)

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Peter Winstanley really is… I know I am going to embarrass back to the Department. I would think it is the opportune him a little bit, but I might as well do it. He is a real brick, time to do that if we are reconstructing the road. I think she as far as I am concerned, down at Meary Veg – holds the acknowledges that, once again, it is joined-up government team together. and it is good value to do the two jobs the once. If you do not know anything about sewage, Mr Winstanley I thank Mr Malarkey for his support and reassure him knows everything about sewage. I thought I knew everything that Meary Veg will be able to cope with the contribution of about IRIS and sewage and I am probably the only Member Laxey and Baldrine (Laughter) … to the Meary Veg project that really enjoys this portfolio I have been given! and we will not be able… we will not need to come back But can I say, Members – to those Members who have to have an extension to the Meary Veg facility. It has the spoken, and I know the Minister will round up – I can assure capacity to handle everything that we can… (Laughter) that Members I will be keeping an eye on all the schemes that can be thrown at it from that direction! are going forward. There is potential to move things in a I thank Mr Bell for his support – obviously, it is good to different direction, if things allow. have the Treasury Minister’s support, especially when you I had better shut up, because the Minister is looking at are in Ramsey! The Bowring Road, yes, there are concerns me! about traffic congestion when that road is dug up and we will I hope Members can bring this forward because the look at ways that try to alleviate the position, as far as the button is ready to be pressed and I know that we have had traffic is concerned. We will be consulting – as I understand reports done regarding Ramsey and Peel, which should we have already done so – with Ramsey Commissioners and encourage the Members there to support this scheme and we looking at traffic management to see if we can find some can get on with the job. It is not always appreciated about alternative methods of trying to help that… what will be a what is actually in the ground, whether it is water, sewage bottleneck at two ends of the day. or whatever. And even gas: that is being touched on, too, as I would like to thank Mr Lowey for his contribution and far as I am concerned. We need to bring the utilities with us: how he has highlighted that, you know, the infrastructure that if we can do it, we should be doing it. we have been doing in Government over a period of years and how we have actually been steaming ahead, compared The President: Minister to reply. with the other Crown dependencies. This is another step in the right direction. As far as the numbers are concerned in this project, The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. these are people taken on just for this project and through I thank the Hon. Members for their contributions and the Capital Scheme: they are not going to be part of the their support. Just in relation to Mr Speaker’s comments Department: it will be varying in the length of time and the – and I thank him for welcoming the joined-up approach length of contracts that we have, so I don’t think he needs with our other partners in Government, in this case the Isle to lose any sleep on that one. of Man Water Authority – he is asking when this is going to He also highlighted that we need to continue to update take place. It will be in the next… [Interruption] when this our infrastructure and this is just the first step along the line will take place. However, that does not necessarily mean of the new regionalisation of IRIS and I will be coming back to say that the sewerage from the Laxey and Lonan area in a regular… regularly, I think, in the next several months will necessarily get to Meary Veg any quicker than was asking for more moneys to make sure that it is rolled out. anticipated before: it is taking the opportunity when that I think we have to remember that the regionalisation road is being dug up anyway to put the pipe infrastructure in. of IRIS is going to save us something like £15 million, However, it is something we are leaving with the contractors, compared with the original concept, and the way things have to see how the timetable will be rolled out. changed over the years, but it is something that if we don’t There will be an opportunity to move certain sections spend it now, it will cost us twice as much if we put it off. So further forward in this regionalisation, compared with the I welcome his support and I would like to also put on record original plans and it might well be that it might come forward – and I thank Mr Quirk for his contribution – the leadership earlier than anticipated, but I am afraid I cannot give any which Mr Peter Winstanley has given the Department in this guarantees on that one. We have only just appointed our area (Mr Crookall: Hear, hear.) and we wish him well in client project manager within this system, who is Mr Mark his operation on Friday. Hyder of… Mr Mark Brace of Hyder, so we are at the early With that, Mr President, I beg to move. stages yet. What the recommendations and the plans that they come forward with, and the timescales which they The President: The motion, Hon. Members, that I put will draw up, we are not yet privy to that information or to the Court, is that printed at 9 on your Order Paper. Hon. the decision-making process. I do thank him for his support Members, those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The and, in relation to talking about the extension of natural ayes have it. The ayes have it. gas network to Laxey and Lonan, that is something the Department has been tasked to look into, so it will be looked into in relation to that. If that is the will of another area of Government, then we will facilitate that, but it is something Glenfaba Hoard of Viking silver we have been tasked to do. Ex gratia payment approved I thank Mrs Craine for her welcoming of the reconstruction of Bowring Road in Ramsey – which seems to be a very 10. A Member of the Treasury (Mr Downie) to move: important part of Ramsey, from behind me – and the installation of the IRIS main into that road and, obviously, That Tynwald approves an ex gratia payment be made as we will be looking at the reconstruction, if necessary, of the a reward to the finder of the Glenfaba Hoard of Viking adjacent pavements and that is something I will be taking silver in the sum of £300,000.

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The President: Item 10. Member for the Treasury, Mr The President: Hon. Member, Mr Crowe. Downie, to move, please. Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. A Member of the Treasury (Mr Downie): Thank you, I am quite sure this should go through as the two parties Mr President. have agreed. My question is straightforward. What will When Tynwald considered the motion on 20th May for MNH do with the Hoard once they get hold of it? Will it an ex gratia payment of £275,000 to be made to the finder of be on permanent display, will it be on temporary display, or the Glenfaba Hoard, the following amendment was moved just will it be archived? by the Hon. Member for Peel, Mr Crookall; The President: Hon. Member, Mr Turner. ‘that the debate be adjourned to the sitting of the Court in July 2008 in order that the parties involved can discuss this matter and permit Manx National Heritage to report before the matter is determined by Mr Turner: No, I was going to… Tynwald.’ The President: Okay. Chief Minister? I am pleased to report to this Hon. Court that a meeting took place on 3rd June with the finder, Mr Whewell, The Chief Minister: Yes, thank you, Mr President. accompanied by Mr Crookall MHK with representatives of Just to really stand up and say a couple of comments Manx National Heritage and myself. about this. One is, of course, supporting the motion on the As Hon. Members will know, we have had a number of Order Paper and just really make the point that this has been valuations regarding the Glenfaba Hoard, which have been a real, long struggle to get this matter sorted out and I think received by both parties, as a basis for discussion, and given those of us – and I was involved for the period from 2003-06 that one particular valuer’s valuation was almost 12 months in relation to being vice-chairman of Manx National Heritage old, that the valuer could indicate whether this was a need and I know that all parties were frustrated in trying to deal for that valuation to be adjusted for current market value, an with this, to try and get a conclusion. account could be taken of this in setting the revised reward. In The Hon. Member who moved this said about the accordance with the previous applied formula, an uplift was legislation being a bit out of date. In fact the legislation made to take account of market changes, for example, gold that MNH and Government have to work to is the Treasure and silver prices etc., in the last 12 months. This would result Trove Act 1586. I think that is a little bit more than a little in a revised average valuation for the hoard of £298,661. bit out of date! I think it is well out of date and really just Based on this updated calculation and following a very make the point that I think what has happened because of productive meeting with Mr Whewell, Manx National this find and the difficulties that all parties have experienced Heritage recommended to Treasury and the Council of to get a conclusion, Government has agreed there should Ministers that a revised fee of £300,000 be put forward for be new legislation to bring in up-to-date procedures and approval by Tynwald Court today. The figure has the approval rights in relation to any treasure trove that is found, so it is of Treasury, as required under the treasure trove legislation, an important issue. and, as I am very pleased to report, it also has been acceptable I think we should all just thank the finder for his patience, to the finder, Mr Whewell. I think the adjournment did provide really, and we know he has been frustrated. I have never met for some very useful dialogue and I am very grateful to the him but I know, through MNH, as the vice chairman at that Hon. Member for Peel for his interest in the matter and his time, all parties did struggle to try and find a way to resolve assistance in bringing this long drawn out issue to what this issue and many people were involved including, I think, appears to be a satisfactory conclusion. the Attorney General’s Chambers and all sorts trying to find Finally, it has been clearly identified by the Council of a way to deal with all this. I just really hope Members will Ministers and Treasury that the legislation regarding treasure support the motion because I do believe it is an appropriate trove is very much out of date. Council of Ministers has payment to be made and look forward at some stage to a advised Manx National Heritage that it should be revised at the earliest opportunity. new Bill coming into the Keys so we can actually update Hon. Members have been circulated with all of the this legislation. background papers to this, so I am not going to go over all the issues again. I beg to move the motion in my name. A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. The President: Mr Speaker.

Mr Gawne: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The Speaker: Mr President, I have no doubt that this motion will go through. Speaking generally on the The President: Hon. Member, Mr Crookall. principle of treasure trove, does it not seem remarkable that somebody… anyone can, in fact, through sheer good chance, Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. sheer good fortune, unearth something that has been in the I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Hon. ground for hundreds and hundreds of years and get, in this Member, Mr Downie, and MNH and also the Treasury for case, the sum of £300,000 from public funds as a reward for taking the time to reconsider this on behalf of Mr Whewell, finding? Well done the finder! the finder. I am pleased to report that he is very happy to accept, eventually, after a long, long time, and I am delighted The President: Mr Downie to reply. to hear that Treasury is going to go back and look at the way that this is dealt with in the future. I thank everybody very Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. much for their time, sir. I would just like to thank Mr Gawne, who is the Keys

Glenfaba Hoard of Viking silver – Ex gratia payment approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1183 T125 representative of Manx National Heritage for seconding the Development’ under the heading ‘Health and Social motion today. Security’ on page 8 of the Isle of Man Budget 2008-09 and I would like to thank Mr Crookall. He obviously did a as described in the Capital Estimates 2008-09 to 2012-13 lot of work behind the scenes to bring this to a satisfactory on page 55 of the Isle of Man Budget 2008-09] resolution and I am grateful to him. The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crowe, asked what The President: Item 11. Minister for Health and Social we will do with the Hoard. I hope it will be on permanent Security, please. Mr Teare. exhibition in – or permanent display – in the new Viking Gallery. It is there at the moment. It is very, very impressive, The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr and it is probably one of the biggest and most important Teare): Thank you, Mr President. hoards of silver coins and silver objects that has ever been In 1991, this Hon. Court approved a strategy document found on the Isle of Man. which determined that the Island should have one acute I am grateful to the Chief Minister for his support in this. hospital and three community healthcare facilities: one each It has been difficult to deal with because the legislation, as in Douglas, Rushen and also Ramsey. In the intervening he says, is very much out of date. There are other anomalies years, these requirements have been delivered and the with the legislation as well, Hon. Members. If somebody remaining part of that strategy that has been concluded is the dug a Viking chariot up today, which would be priceless in Central Community Healthcare development, located in the historic terms, it would not be treasure trove. Our treasure former Noble’s Hospital on Westmoreland Road, Douglas. trove legislation only deals with precious metals – i.e. gold The non-acute services which are to be accommodated at the and silver – so there are artefacts out there which are worth Central Community Healthcare Facility include the Mental an awful lot of money and very, very important to the history Health Older Persons’ Assessment Service (OPAS), the Adult of this Island that are not classed as treasure trove. Community Mental Health teams, and the Psychology and I concur with the Chief Minister’s views: we need to Counselling Service. thank the finder for his patience. Rather than be anti-metal Turning to the Older Persons’ Assessment Service, the detector, I think there is a lot of support for the detector team is presently based in Cronk Coar on the Ballamona groups now and the very important work that they do in estate. They provide an Island-wide service, 365 days a unearthing these finds. It is quite right that they should be year, between the hours of 8.00 in the morning and 8.00 rewarded. in the evening on weekdays, and 9.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. at And finally, Mr Speaker: I agree with his sentiments weekends. They have a caseload in excess of 600 service entirely. The principle of treasure trove: the man has been, users. The function of the OPAS team is to co-ordinate the in my opinion, now justly rewarded. The only piece that is provision of assessment, treatment and follow-up work, missing from the jigsaw – and we should identify this when including access to outpatient services, day-care services the legislation comes in: the person who owns the land has and in-patient services. The proposed new development will no entitlement to the treasure trove. In other legislation, provide accommodation for the 26 OPAS staff, including particularly in the UK, there is a sharing arrangement now nursing, medical, occupational therapy and secretarial and perhaps that is something you can bear in mind when support staff. The accommodation will include space for a the legislation takes progress. memory clinic, interview and examination rooms and office So, Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in accommodation for the staff who work in the community and my name and I am very pleased that we seem to have had a those who would be permanently based on the site. satisfactory outcome. Turning to the Psychology and Counselling Service, this is currently based in the former private patients’ ward of The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to old Noble’s Hospital, and forms part of the Mental Health the Court is printed at Item 10, that Tynwald approves an Service. The service provides a range of psychological ex gratia payment to be made as a reward to the finder of therapies, psychometric assessment and counselling to adult the Glenfaba hoard of Viking silver in the sum of £300,000. service users with psychological and emotional difficulties, Hon. Members, those in favour, please say aye; against, no. and consultation and supervision to other colleagues in the The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mental Health Service, including clinical psychology input to troubled children and adolescents. The caseload of the team is currently in the region of 170 service users. The periods of treatment can vary from weeks to years. This Central Community Healthcare Development development will provide clinical and office accommodation Phase 1 for 13 staff, including consultant clinical psychologist, Expenditure approved clinical psychologist, associated psychologist, counsellors and support staff. 11. The Minister for Health and Social Security to move: Turning now to the Adult Community Mental Health team, they are currently based on two sites. The nursing That Tynwald approves the Department of Health and and social workers are based in Hill Street, Douglas, and the Social Security incurring expenditure not exceeding medical staff are based on the Ballamona estate. The main £1,322,923 for the refurbishment of the former Day focus of this team is the provision of specialist outpatient Hospital and part of the former Jane Crookall Wing, assessment, the treatment and provision of support services Westmoreland Road, Douglas to provide accommodation to people of working age who are experiencing severe and for non-acute patient services. enduring mental illness. The caseload of the nursing and social work staff is in the region of 450, and the medical [Reference Item no. 4 ‘Central Community Healthcare staff will also have a caseload of approximately 500, some

Glenfaba Hoard of Viking silver – Ex gratia payment approved Central Community Healthcare Development – Phase 1 – Expenditure approved 1184 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day of whom will also be on the nursing and social workers’ to be on its knees, I do remember when the far end block, caseload. This project will provide consulting, interview and towards Hillside Avenue and Westmoreland Road, was used assessment rooms, a depot clinic and offices for the medical, for school purposes and it is very ingenious when you look nursing and support staff. at the map, that I have never seen an underground car park Hon. Members, there are no additional revenue or with a playing field on top. I just wondered how that fits in personnel requirements as a consequence of the scheme. with those facilities, and what the facilities would be used The amalgamation of these services on to one site will for in the future. Would it be used for the community? result in better communication, co-working and an improved That then brings me on to the removing of the healthcare service to those members of our community who Vagabonds… well, the ambulance station, the fire station, are or may suffer in the future from a mental illness. quite a good big chunk of capital… the capital strategy Office space will become available as a result of these there. moves. The area currently used by the Psychology and And then the other one was to do with the potential there Counselling team will be given to the Department of of putting the Vagabonds to the playing fields at Ballafletcher. Education in order that a new junior school is provided It seems very viable, but then what happens to the Vagabond on that site. The Hill Street offices to be vacated as a football club at Glencrutchery? (A Member: Football club?) consequence of the scheme will also facilitate the provision Sorry, rugby club. There is a football club there. It is called of the new school, as non-clinical services, such as finance St George’s. I will get a comment from that! and human resources, that are currently based on the old But can I say, too, there is an expression of interest out Noble’s site, will have to relocate. As the Hill Street offices for the Vagabonds Rugby Club, through the DTL, that was belong to the DHSS, that building will continue to be used placed some time ago there. I just wonder, at the minute, I for Department purposes. cannot see anything that stimulates me to put the Fire Brigade In the Department’s capital programme, there is provision there, when it is right next to the TT course, so it is even to convert Cronk Coar to staff residences. However, I can locked into the particular constraints that we do have four advise Hon. Members that I have requested a review of the times… well, four weeks of the year. I just wondered whether intended use of that building. If this motion before this Hon. we can have some input into the bigger strategy. Court is approved, the building work will be undertaken But just looking on the face value on the hostel side of by a number of local contractors. The new facility will be the community centre there, that looks okay. The indication fully operational by January next year. In the meantime, the Minister is giving us there is of what purposes he wants work on developing the design of the remainder of the site it for. But I just wanted to put those markers down, that is ongoing. there is quite a bit in this and, as night follows day, surely Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my something else will happen. But I would welcome it, as I name, sir. am sure other Members would welcome a visit too, if one could be organised. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crowe. The President: Minister to reply. Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Mr Callister: Eh, sorry.

The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. The President: Mr Callister.

Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Callister: Just a couple of points I wanted to make Just on the particular notes – I probably will be supporting very briefly, Mr President. the particular issue that is on the Agenda here today – but if On the point of view of parking, as to what parking will I could just ask the Minister – and some of them are not for be available for the staff because, presumably, there are a him – I suppose, actually asking, has there been consultation fair number of staff there? Likewise for patients visiting and, with the staff, for those staff that would be required to move looking at the location, it seems to me it would have been an from the old hospital site? ideal location to relocate the Palatine Health Centre (Two With reference to… if I could just flick through the Chief Members: Hear, hear.) but that has passed and gone. Minister’s letter we received on Saturday. Like Mr Cregeen, sometimes things are short and I must say, Chief Minister, The President: Minister to reply. this only came on Saturday, so it did not give us much time to look at it. I know I am looking at it now… A Member: It is not too late. I do have concerns. I looked at it over the weekend, when I read it. I do have concerns that there is an integral part of The Minister: Sorry, Mr President, I was just making a a particular strategy here. I am just wondering whether this few notes of the last comments made by the Hon. Member is in a cross-department co-ordinated capital strategy and of Council, Mr Callister. a progress report that was given to Members for July 2008 Turning to the comments made by the Hon. Member for which does indicate that particular facility. I see this as like Onchan, Mr Quirk, the staff have been consulted and they are starting down a particular road there and if we are to support fully aware of the Department’s intentions. I have to say that today, the consequences could be that the rest of the A, B, C, the premises in which some of the staff are operating at the D, Es and Fs happen straight afterwards. I just look for the moment are less than par, I think is the most polite way you assurances that could we possibly have a visit to the particular can put it. This will deliver to them much enhanced working site, Minister, to look around the place? I remember, in the conditions, much better working conditions, to enable them olden days there, when this particular place was supposed to deliver a high standard of service, which our patients quite

Central Community Healthcare Development – Phase 1 – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1185 T125 rightly expect. The Hon. Member is quite right, it is part of the Estimates of Capital Payments 2008-09 to 2012-13 an overall strategy, but this strategy has, if you pardon the on page 53 of the 2008-09 Budget] expression, firebreaks in it and if Hon. Members are minded to support the motion standing in my name today it does not The President: Thank you, Hon. Members. commit them to anything else. This is a stage of part of the Yes, Hon. Members, apparently Mr Henderson is overall development of the Noble’s Hospital site and I think struggling because of the heat, so if you wish to take your that Hon. Members would certainly benefit, if they so wished, jackets off, you may. (Laughter and interjections) from a site visit and if anybody would like to contact me, I We will continue, then, at Item 12, the Ballakermeen bus would be pleased to facilitate that, sir. lay-by and parking and I call on the Minister for Education Turning to the comments of the Hon. Member of Council, to move. Mr Callister, there is parking there. There is parking in the immediate vicinity and there is also parking down on the The Minister for Education (Mrs Craine): Thank you, Ballakermeen Road. There is a road which leads down onto Mr President. Peel Road, if you follow it through eventually. The road, Mr President, there are insufficient parking spaces at in effect, goes down and then stops and there is a footpath Ballakermeen School and this has necessitated, in recent through down to Peel Road. As you come down to the end years, the use of the tennis courts area, located at the front of that road, there is a wide car parking area there, which is of the school for further staff and visitor parking. very lightly used but it is owned by the Department. Now, The school, as Members will know, given its site the intention is that the staff will be encouraged to park there constraints, is already lacking in hard play, social and so that that will free up parking space closer to the service recreational spaces, particularly during the autumn and areas for our customers, service users and patients – so we spring terms when the school field is out of action. This have thought it through. scheme will provide 30 additional parking spaces alongside As far the Palatine Health Centre is concerned, we did the driveway at the front of the school and, in doing so, will think of that but there is already a GP practice operating out return the tennis courts to their original use and free them of the old Noble’s site and what we wanted to do was to up as hard surface, recreational space. keep, as far as possible, the practices spread out around the A phase 1 bus lay-by scheme was successfully completed eastern area so that patients did not all have to go to the same in 2002 adjacent to the playing fields. Under this scheme area, that we would serve the geographical area, hopefully, the bus lay-by area will be extended adjacent to an existing on a more localised basis. Certainly the Hon. Member will netball court area, to enable all school buses to safely set be aware from the time that he observed this Hon. Court’s down and board students, with an appropriate area for proceedings that the Department took steps and engaged in students to wait off the driveway prior to boarding the a wide ranging consultation to try and secure premises or buses. Also under the scheme, bin storage facilities will be a site in the Douglas area for the relocation of the Palatine improved through the creation of a secure bin store. Surgery but unfortunately we were unsuccessful. Work has Mr President, planning approval was granted on 1st July, commenced on the new building and it is already up to wall with formal ratification expected on 22nd July, following the plate level, sir. statutory 21-day appeal period. I can advise Hon. Members So without further ado, sir, I would like to move the that there were no objections to the planning application and motion standing in my name. concerns raised by the Department of Transport have been addressed. While it is accepted that Douglas Corporation The President: The motion, Hon. Members, I put to have the right to raise objection at any stage of the planning the Court is printed at Item 11 on your Order Paper. Again, process, they have not indicated any opposition to the Hon. Members, those in favour of Item 11, please say aye; proposal. Since the works entail widening and re-engineering against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. of the driveway that can only be undertaken during the school I think, Hon. Members, we will take the opportunity of a summer break, it was felt necessary to bring this scheme break at this juncture. The Court will resume its deliberations to July Tynwald with formal planning approval ratification at Item 12 at twenty past five by the Court clock. Hon. outstanding, in order to prevent the scheme slipping by 12 Members, thank you. months until the next school summer holiday. It is clearly understood by the Department that this The Court adjourned at 4.50 p.m. scheme cannot be progressed until the expiration of the and resumed its sitting at 5.20 p.m. appeal period and confirmation of approval is given. Included in this budget provision is the sum of £30,000 for access barriers to be provided at the three driveway entrances and exits to improve authorised access control Ballakermeen bus lay-by and parking and site security. Separate planning approval is to be sought Expenditure approved for these barriers, which, if obtained, will be installed later in the year. 12. The Minister for Education to move: Following competitive tendering, the Department proposes to enter into a contract with SGL Construction Ltd That Tynwald approves the Department of Education for the car parking, bus lay-by and bin store works in the incurring expenditure not exceeding £209,213.50 on sum of £191,220. The works are planned to commence on Ballakermeen bus lay-by and parking. 22nd July, for completion by 7th September. Other development costs of £57,992 include provision [Reference Item no. 30 under the heading ‘Education’ for the access barriers, professional fees, tender advertising on page 7 of the 2008-09 Isle of Man Budget and under costs, insurances, building regulation fees and client

Central Community Healthcare Development – Phase 1 – Expenditure approved Ballakermeen bus lay-by and parking – Expenditure approved 1186 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day contingency, to give a total development cost of £249,213.50. similar, and they are effective, so I am not knocking that, but The total proposed development cost is, therefore, within what I would say is the issue about the gates, which we are the total approved Pink Book budget provision of £250,000. now told – and I very much welcome – is almost a separate Tynwald has approved pre-contract and enabling expenditure issue, with £30,000 worth of separate issue. If those gates of £40,000 and the Department therefore seeks approval to can be reviewed independently, because, frankly, I do not see the construction cost of 209…209 (Laughter) such a large the argument, as it says here, to improve authorised access figure, Mr President! £209,213.50. control and site security. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my The concept of schools, in my opinion, and I have always name. held this view – when I was in the Education Department I would promote it to the best of my ability – is that they The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. are community facilities and they should be utilised by the community, by schools in school time and by communities Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. out of that time. They are built with our money, they are I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks. maintained with our money, and that should always be the concept. What we will find where we put on access gates The President: Hon. Member, Mr Corkish. is they are not access gates; they are actually exclusion gates, and they will be about keeping people out, rather than Mr Corkish: Thank you, Mr President. welcoming them in, and I would very much think that is a Following my Question to the Minister, some months ago retrograde step. I do not have any evidence to suggest that in another place, regarding the provision of some additional site security is an issue. Indeed, on site security, surely we parking spaces at Ballakermeen School, in particular, I would want the Police and the emergency services having welcome the move by the Minister’s Department to do just the freest, easiest access, because we can none of us be that. unaware that arson of school buildings is a huge problem Whilst I was disappointed that the Answer to my in the United Kingdom, and God forbid that should happen Question raised was perhaps dismissive, I now congratulate here, but if it does, then we need to have the most prompt the Minister on this re-evaluation of a long time problem and timely response from the blue-light services. that school related parking causes to residents in that part I would just go back over the comments: Ballakermeen, of Douglas West. It shall be received as a gesture of good in my opinion, is a fantastic school. It is well led, it is well neighbourliness, and certainly go some way to relieving road staffed, and the ethos of community inclusion is one which is congestion and indeed safety, particularly in relation to the reflected there. I wholeheartedly commend that and I would proposed bus lay-by. not want anything to happen to change that trend; I would However, I would be interested, Mr President, to learn want to enhance that trend. So, certainly the Arts Council more about, and seek clarification, regarding the use of theatre in Ballakermeen, as my friend, Mr Corkish, has access barriers envisaged within this plan to improve site alluded to, and also the sports facilities, and also the other safety. How would this provision work in relation to the facilities in the school should be optimised for community school facilities that are used outside of school term time or use, wherever possible. school hours – in particular the Studio Theatre, which was Just on a final note, I note the comment, ‘during the substantially funded by the Isle of Man Arts Council? autumn and spring terms when the school field is out of And finally, Mr President, will the Minister and the action’. I do not understand why that would be the case, Department keep under review the opportunities which Eaghtyrane, and perhaps the Minister could respond to that, may be presented with regard to remedying exactly the because that does not seem a very consistent argument but I same problem being experienced by residents in the close would be happy to hear that. vicinity of St Ninian’s High School, notwithstanding her So I do hope that the Minister will take those views, Department’s budgetary constraints? particularly in relation to the access gates. Please do not feel that because this motion will succeed, as I hope it will, that The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. that means necessary carte blanche for the access gates. I hope the Minister will reflect that to planning and indeed to Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. the school management. On a similar vein, I have broken this down into a number of constituent parts, and I think the Minister, in her helpful The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. introduction, has addressed one which, hopefully, will be to my satisfaction. Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. The additional car parking at school I would certainly I would actually, in a large proportion, like to echo the agree with. The improved bus drop-off and collection comments of my colleague, Mr Gill, on this. Even though facilities, likewise the bin storage facilities to be improved this seems to be a Douglas issue, we both seem to have a through the creation of a new bin store. Again, I have got no view on it. This… I have a bit of sympathy for the Minister problem with those three. Indeed, I would say, Eaghtyrane, here, in that the overall cost of the scheme is pretty much I visit Ballakermeen School on an almost daily basis – my within the IRIS scheme’s margin for error, really, but it eldest daughter went to the sixth form there, and our middle does not mean that we should not be looking closely at the daughter is now a sixth-form student at Ballakermeen reasons for it and what it is going to do. This is… and again – and I have to say I do not recognise some of the issues I think I echo the comment about this is something of an that are being flagged up here. Certainly, speeding through overreaction, I think. Certainly one of the reasons that this Ballakermeen is not an option. They have speed bumps is being promoted is around safety, pedestrian safety, yet I there which you would have to go to Basra to see anything am not aware of a peculiar accident record in and around the

Ballakermeen bus lay-by and parking – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1187 T125 school – if anything, sort of vehicles parked on both sides the the bus or even car share. You see dozens and dozens of street have narrowed the road to such an extent that vehicles young people leaving their cars and causing a problem in cannot travel quickly, anyway. the neighbourhood. It will not be a problem in the next few Also I cannot figure out how the car numbers have grown weeks because you will not see any cars at all, because we exponentially at Ballakermeen. I was aware that there was will go back to normal, as it were. a problem at Castle Rushen High School, whereby sixth And there have been concerns because another formers used to bring their own cars in, park them up on Department of Government, the Department of Transport, school grounds, when clearly they probably should not be has tried to come the heavy-handed approach and penalised – not me, I hasten to add – but seriously, though, there was everybody. Now, we do not want that to happen and I am glad a car parking facility put with every school, so I am just to say that, in some dialogue I have had with the Department wondering what has changed quite so significantly, that there of Transport, there has been some common sense brought are so many more vehicles than before. to bear, and I think there is a traffic management scheme I am also just worried about the restrictions to access, devised for Ballabrooie Way, which will be helpful. as well, that Mr Gill also picked up on. I am just wondering Now, I think what the Minister needs to have regard to what that is going to lead to in terms of traffic management is that people have had access from Westminster Drive to issues, because if you have got cars coming into a site and St Catherine’s Drive since 1938. There has never been a through it and out at a relatively slow speed, if they are then barrier there and, in fact, when the school is not in regular having to sort of spin round and try and get out the same use, people quite often go into town that way. I hope that if almost one way street – and they are quite narrow roads up these barriers are going to be introduced, they will not cause there, with cars parked on either side of the road. My main huge problems, because on a wet day, I would say every other experience of going up round there is as a passenger in Mr child that comes to school generally comes in mum or dad’s Gill’s car, coming in some mornings! So that is the extent car. That is part of the loop system that they use: they drop of my experience, but I have seen at first hand what it is like off at the back of the school and the vehicles go out onto St at rush hour down there. Catherine’s Drive and go… You have only got to stand there So that is really the comments that I would make on in the morning: there are hundreds of cars. this. I appreciate the problems that the school is having, but Thank you. I think what they have got to do themselves is they have got to look at the problem and come up with a system for The President: Hon. Member, Mr Downie. themselves, and start to instil on the students the pressures that they cause for the surrounding area and the homes. Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. Possibly they will get a lot better understanding. Could I first put on record my support for the achievement I would like to see, in some areas round the school, the of the school. There is an excellent headteacher there. disc parking relaxed for certain areas during the day, because (Several Members: Hear, hear.) They do provide some at the present time, you go to areas where we have got disc very, very good results and it is an outstanding school, in parking and there are no vehicles in them at all; whereas they my opinion. could quite easily be utilised by the students, if you had, say, Sadly, the school has developed to such an extent – when alternative days and different disc zones. It would help the I was a pupil at the school, there were about 600 of us there problem all round. – I think there are about 1,450 there at the present time. I am supporting the motion today, but I would ask the Minister if she would really make certain that, before they Mr Henderson: They are packed out to the gunnels. install these barriers at a cost of £30,000, they are going to do the job that is really required – or are they going to harbour up Mr Downie: So, Hon. Members will see… I was a so much ill feeling between the surrounding neighbourhood War baby and we were told, when I went to Ballakermeen and people who use the school outside of normal hours or School, that they were large classes. In fact, there were people who go through the school who have had unimpeded about 48 people in my class, when I was at Ballakermeen access since 1938? School. Things have moved on, but I think what you have And the other thing I worry about up there is I feel to bear in mind, Hon. Members, whatever you introduce at that if there is not proper supervision, these things will be the school, it has to live with the neighbourhood and a lot vandalised, because we do have a problem with vandals in the of people appreciate that it is a very good school. They like school. They are often on the roof, causing trouble up there. to see young people develop and get their qualifications and So I think we will need to be very careful about this issue. move on and so on. But you do have a lot of litter. You have Thank you. a lot of trouble with students who now come in cars. In fact, anywhere around Ballabrooie Way, down on the roads off The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Waft. Ballabrooie Way, if you go up there when the school is on, I can guarantee every other car you see has got an R-plate Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. on it. So they are students from the school. It is an old hobbyhorse of mine, taking play areas and Now if there is going to be no provision made within school fields for parking. It has not happened once; it has the school confines itself for students, I think it is poor, happened many times. because there is no proper regime, and I would like to If, when that school was built, it only had four or five think that these young people… at the end of the day, they hundred pupils, and it needed that amount of playing fields, do get free transport provided for them. It is not as if they so be it, but now they have got 1,500 pupils – or 1,400 or have to be totally dependent on the car. There is a facility 1,500 – they are reducing the number of fields available for there provided at no cost, so they can come into school on them. It is not only at this situation – I appreciate where

Ballakermeen bus lay-by and parking – Expenditure approved 1188 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day the Minister is coming from – there have been difficulties. handed, the Department of Transport has actually attempted We all know there are difficulties. Every time you go up to to come up with some imaginative schemes. They went out to Westminster and you see the children coming out, you know consult with the people; the people spoke very clearly that they there are difficulties. did not want what was proposed. They have now rescinded But that being that, when you get people to look at it, let that and are looking at imaginative schemes: indeed, they us find out a solution to it. You get the surveyor down and the have proposed something as outlined by Mr Downie regarding DoT down. They look around and they say, ‘That’s a beautiful possible permits for parking around the disc areas. piece of greenery you’ve got there – let’s chop it up! So we’ll So the Department of Transport are trying to look at one put all those parks down there. That’ll be fine, okay.’ Then problem. I would oppose the Minister putting student parking they all go home. Well, it is not fine for my efforts. You are in this school area. Certainly I think she is fully aware now there to make decisions, and your decision should not be, first the view on the barriers, as well, so hopefully she will be able choice, ‘We will use that green area that the kids have been to reassure us by that, sir. playing on for the last 50 years.’ I am not saying it is, but that is what it looks like. I am sure they have gone into all kinds The President: Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. of considerations, but I wonder how much lateral thinking they apply to these things. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I walked up to that school year after year from Circular Mr President, I think the case is made by the Minister Road and I did not find any problem with it. Some were on and by other Hon. Members for the support of this. Nobody pushbikes, none of them had cars, but now it is suddenly an has a problem at all and in the excellent work that is done by obligation. You have to let them in with cars. What? I do not the headteacher on such a stifled site. I think Hon. Members think so. But, anyway, I just mention my protest. When I look know where I am coming from, shortly. at Douglas High School, the way they have chopped that green Mr Downie was going on about the packed situation on apart, Onchan School, Demesne Road School… ‘We will chop that site and all that goes on, that we all support. that hard area they have got down at Ballacloan School. It is Mr Waft was going on about priority for schoolchildren only a hard area. Let’s knock that down and put a car park in in such a cramped site. it,’ which they did. Nobody really batted an eye, because it The Hon. Member, Mr Shimmin, was going on about the is an easy way out. terrible situation at both schools – the sheer volume of staff I hope, for the Minister’s sake, that this does not extrapolate and children. further and further, because I can see that happening: ‘Oh, we There is one answer to this, Mr President, and I hope the got away with it here; we’ll get away with it over there. We Minister is able to confirm that that answer will be answered will put plenty of parking there for the teachers; that’s the – or that question will be answered – in the October sitting, first priority.’ when the Department is scheduled to come before this Court Let us get our priorities sorted out. The priority for a school for moneys and approvals for the new Bemahague School, is the school children and the facilities they have, and I have (Several Members: Hear, hear.) so that that school can be got a fear that we are taking them away. built and attached to the operation of the St Ninian’s School, Thank you, Mr President. and then all the children then be redistributed throughout the whole of the education system – the secondary education The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmin. system – for the eastern part of Douglas, so that Bemahague takes the weight off that wonderful school at Ballakermeen, Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. and that other wonderful school at St Ninian’s. I do not expect the Minister was imagining we would get Mr President, can the Minister give this Court the this sort of lengthy debate on something which is a relatively assurance – when she winds up on this debate – can she give modest scheme and is based on safety for the children. It does this assurance that everything is on time and on schedule exercise the concern of all Members and the Hon. Member for her to come before this Court for the moneys that were of Council, Mr Waft, mirrors all of our views and I know the promised? That was the reason why I withdrew my motion Minister herself has these views about the reduction in play earlier on this year, to go for that motion, in order to support areas for young people. Certainly, as a former PE teacher the the Department. Can the Minister here give categoric two Douglas schools are in a terrible position, where there are assurance that everything is on schedule for Bemahague limitations of sporting facilities, but also of just general play School to be built on time? outdoor areas where they can let off some steam. The benefit about this scheme, which is why I will support The President: Minister to reply. it so strongly, is that it is an area of almost redundant grass, which is being nibbled away and will actually remove the The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. cars which currently park in a playing area, that is the tennis I would, first of all, like to thank Hon. Members for their courts. The difficulty with Ballakermeen is because of the interest in this matter, and also for their generous comments sheer volume and size of the number of staff that are now about the Headteacher of Ballakermeen School, who I know needed to service it and, as much as that is regrettable, that is will be very pleased to have that message conveyed to her. the state of play until we can get the new Onchan school and I would have to be clear, first of all, if I could, to those maybe some rationalisation going on in the numbers. Members who have thought that this will, in fact, impact on The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie, but also my the residential area around school. I have to disappoint the colleague, Mr Corkish, the senior Member for West Douglas, Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Corkish, because I am have raised the issue about parking in the local area and I afraid that the scheme is to take away staff and visitor parking would vehemently oppose the Minister bringing into the on the tennis courts and to be able to give that an area within school area parking for students. We have a difficulty in the the school boundary for staff to be able to park their cars, to area around the school. I believe, rather than being heavy enable us to allow children to use the tennis courts for the

Ballakermeen bus lay-by and parking – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1189 T125 purpose which they were originally built for, and that is to accidents, Mr President. When we are talking about the safety play tennis on. issues and the need to put in the bus lay-by… I might just If I might refer to the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr advise Hon. Members that phase 1 was actually created in Gill, who asked about the school field being out of action 2002 because of Health and Safety issues, and the Health during the autumn and winter months, I refer to that, Mr and Safety Officer at the time was so concerned, that it was President, because, clearly, during the summer months, a case of ‘You have to make provision for the bus lay-by, or when it is possible for children to go out and play during we are going to take drastic action in preventing you taking their break time on the playing fields, they can make use any vehicles into the school at all.’ of that. During the wintertime, when those fields become I take the Hon. Member, Mr Downie’s point, that there is sodden, it is more difficult for them to then go in and out a problem in the neighbouring area with all kinds of social of school, and they need that tennis court area to be able issues, not just car parking, litter and so on. But I have to say, to play on during their recreation. (Interjection) The Hon. when you have got a population the size of Laxey coming Member looks somewhat puzzled, but I think it is fair to together on one small site each day, (Mr Houghton: Hear, say (Interjection) that the playing fields do get chopped up hear.) it is a very difficult number of people for anybody to during the wintertime through use, and so it is necessary for be able to manage, and I pay tribute to those members of us to be able to keep that hard area for their social recreation staff who actually do go about managing that situation. (Mr during break time and for playing there and taking part in Houghton: Hear, hear.) sport during the lesson time. Of course, my hon. colleague for Onchan, Mr Houghton The actual parking area, some Members have referred – sorry, Douglas North – Mr Houghton did refer to the fact to, and they are concerned that this is eating into the playing that all of this will be alleviated if and when we are able to field, and, yes, certainly if that were to be detrimental to the come forward with the scheme for Bemahague. I can tell playing field, I would share that concern, too, but in fact this the Hon. Member that this subject is party to continuous is not going to impact on the playing field area. That will discussion with officers and the Minister and myself, from remain the same. It will be adjacent to that playing field area, the Department of Education and Treasury, and those but will not impinge on the football pitch that is already there discussions are ongoing and I hope that we will be able to and marked out, and so it is on the verge of that that these come to October. But I can assure the Hon. Member and 30 additional spaces will be getting created. all other Members that we are doing our best to make that There has been much debate here, Mr President, about feasible. the safety issues surrounding the school and the requirement With that, Mr President, I beg to move. for safety barriers, access barriers, to be implemented. What I would say is that what we are doing, in fact, is we The President: are creating an additional bus lay-by. At the time when the Hon. Members, the motion that I put to buses are coming into school, it will not be possible for the Court is that printed at Item 12, that Tynwald approves cars to pass those buses, so if they are installed, the access the Department of Education incurring expenditure not barriers will be in place. Staff will have fobs to operate the exceeding £209,213.50 on Ballakermeen bus lay-by and barriers, visitors and deliveries will be able to buzz reception parking. Those in favour, Hon. Members, please say aye; to be let in, but they will be set up for a period prior to the against, no. The ayes have it. start of the school day and at the end to allow school buses to come and go. What we would anticipate, Mr President, A division was called for and electronic voting resulted is that, very simply, we do not want cars and pedestrians to as follows: mix. What we want to do is to be able to protect our children who are going into school from having to mingle with car In the Keys – Ayes 22, Noes 1 traffic going alongside them. FOR AGAINST I take the Hon. Member’s point that it is anticipated Mr Quirk Mr Watterson parents do drop their children off. I have to question why they Mr Earnshaw have to drop them off at the school door; they can drop them Mr Brown off at the road, and it would do them no harm at all to walk Mr Crookall that small distance to the school. I always find it absolutely Mr Anderson Mrs Craine fascinating on days when it is raining, Mr President, to see Mr Bell the way in which drivers of cars endanger their own children Mr Quayle by driving so close to schools to drop their children off. I Mr Teare joke to myself that, if they could, they would drive them Mr Cannan into the classroom. I think that we have to get beyond this Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton reasonable, or rather, unreasonable practice, as I see it, of Mr Henderson children having to be ferried everywhere and protected to Mr Malarkey the extent where actually they are endangered. Mrs Cannell But I will gladly take back the message that has been Mr Braidwood given to me today, the concern about these barriers. Certainly, Mr Corkish it would be really to be able to protect the schoolchildren Mr Shimmin Mr Cretney during the school hours. Out of school hours, and during Mr Gawne times when there are performances at the theatre and so on, it Mr Gill would not be envisaged that those barriers would be down at The Speaker all. Public use will be still able to be made of the school. As for the comments that speeding is not an option, no, The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys 22 votes for, 1 it is not an option, but it is not always speeding that causes against. The motion carries.

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In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 1 More importantly, the sharing of information in a secure way, as will be required by the development of the integrated FOR AGAINST children’s services, will be enabled. Mr Callister Mr Waft Mr Crowe The scheme will reduce telephony costs and enable Mr Downie enhanced services to be provided, such as building and Mrs Christian energy management, security and administration services. Mr Lowey Following negotiation with Manx Telecom, as a supplier Mr Butt of the Government’s Connect Mann process, ISD are to enter Mr Turner into a contract with them for the required school upgrade The President: In the Council there were 7 for and 1 works and Connect Mann integration works in the sum of against, Hon. Members. The motion therefore carries, Hon. £857,625. Other development costs of £134,560 include the Members. provision of firewalls, the relocation of servers, configuration and rollout of the telephony handsets and client contingency to give a total development of £992,186. Of this total development cost, the sum of £539,306 for the integration Renewal of ICT Intranet Infrastructure with Connect Mann is to be met by the e-commerce ICT fund, Expenditure approved leaving a balance of £452,880 for our ICT infrastructure upgrade to be met under this capital scheme. 13. The Minister for Education to move: The total approved Pink Book budget provision is £450,008 and the Department therefore seeks additional That Tynwald approves the Department of Education budget approval of £2,880. Tynwald has approved pre- incurring expenditure not exceeding £440,880 on contract and enabling expenditure of £12,000 and the Renewal of ICT Intranet Infrastructure. Department therefore seeks approval to the implementation cost of £440,880. Works are planned to commence on 26th [Reference Item no. 28 under the heading ‘Education’ July 2008 for completion by 7th September 2008. on page 7 of the 2008-09 Isle of Man Budget and under Mr President, it is anticipated that the scheme will at the Estimates of Capital Payments 2008-09 to 2012-13 least be revenue neutral, with revenue-saving opportunities on page 53 of the 2008-09 Budget] expected following full implementation. I beg to move. The President: We move on to Item 13 and, again, I call on the Minister for Education to move. Mrs Craine, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. please. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane, I beg to The Minister for Education (Mrs Craine): Thank you, second and reserve my remarks. Mr President. The Department of Education’s intranet is a high- The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. speed, wireless network linking together various locations, including all schools and a number of other locations. The Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. network provides around 1,000 teachers and 12,000 students Just a couple of questions on this. I do not want the Hon. with e-mail communication, internet access, administrative Minister for Education thinking I am picking on her. I do processes and numerous educational applications. The intend to support this. proposal will renew the infrastructure and bring the First question: I did not quite pick it up, over what period school curriculum and administration networks onto the will the loan charges be over? Is this going to be a five-year Connect Mann network backbone. This will provide a high capital scheme, because clearly there is no point in putting availability, secure service, while maintaining the flexibility it in for the usual 30 years when you only expect a new IT which the Department requires. structure to last for five. The new system will enable the excellent base to be built The other question I wanted to ask, which was not on further and to take forward new opportunities for the mentioned in her opening remarks. It was in terms of energy development of the service and sharing of information across consumption, whether that is likely to be greater or less Government. The current arrangement with Domicilium than at present. I just wanted to know what consideration ends in February 2009. Since it is part way through an has been given to this and other sort of environmental academic year, the Department needs to proceed with these impacts, obviously whether it includes air-conditioning, works over the summer period in order to avoid disruption and all that sort of thing so whether that has been taken into of service. The physical infrastructure, which supports the consideration, but otherwise I look forward to supporting existing Domicilium network has been in place for almost six this motion. years and is in need of replacement in order to avoid further disruption or total failure of service through equipment Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. malfunction and escalating maintenance costs. The expected Can I ask the Minister a couple of things. I noticed life of such a network, Mr President, is three to five years. that the former provider was Domicilium there and I am The renewal will also enable capacity to be increased just wondering whether, under the rules of tenders, was to cope with the growing demand from the network. The Domicilium not supposed to be able to provide the expertise scheme will further enable the Department’s communications to run this forward? Are we actually tied with Manx Telecom to be incorporated into the Connect Mann network in regarding the Connect Mann process? compliance with Council of Ministers 2007 ICT policy. I am just wondering, can I ask the question, too, regarding

Ballakermeen bus lay-by and parking – Expenditure approved Renewal of ICT Intranet Infrastructure – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1191 T125 could not the Department go straight to Telecom or Connect So I really have a lot of reservations about this particular Mann and avoid the issue of ISD? The recollection of ISD matter, and would certainly like to know more before I vote is usually it takes an arm and a leg to get through them – all for it. the procedures that they have to conform to and I am just wondering is there any capability of this wireless system The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. being communicated to some sort of, like, when out of hours, that a CCTV system could be interconnected and with a Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. possible use for security purposes? I was beginning to get a little bit concerned when Members were jumping up and not raising concerns, so I The President: Mr Turner, Hon. Member of Council. am pleased that the Hon. Member of the Legislative Council has raised concerns because I, too, have some concerns Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. about this. I do have some concerns about this motion that is before I am wanting a lot more reassurance from the Minister us. I just wonder what the reason was for changing from before I decide if I am going to actually vote for it. The thing Domicilium. Obviously, it says that their current contract that startles me is that I am aware that systems like this, ends in February 2009. I just wondered, had that system when you are changing completely, you need to place those served the Department well? And I notice in the notes orders well in advance of the time in which you need them. that it says ‘escalating maintenance costs and equipment So I would gather that the Department has, in fact, placed malfunction’: I wonder, have there been instances of that, the orders already, prior to possibly informing the present and are the current maintenance costs met by the current service provider that they were no longer going to be required supplier, which is Domicilium? Has the present system had – and that concerns me because it is kind of usurping Tynwald a particularly large amount of downtime? approval on these matters or otherwise. So that gives me a With regard to bringing it onto the Government system, concern, parliamentary speaking. I certainly hope that the 1,000 teachers and 12,000 students The other thing that gives me concern is that, if the end up with a better system than we have currently upstairs. contract with the current service provider finishes in Certainly, the restrictions that are in place for Members of February, that is in 6 or 7 months’ time, is the Department Tynwald, you would certainly see as rather restrictive for the now having to pay a penalty to that service provider for, in teachers and students. So I hope that they will not be getting effect, cutting its service, because I am aware that this service the same system that we have upstairs. provider has had to start decommissioning, and has been now With regard to tendering, I think it was mentioned just doing that for a little time, shall we say? before by Mr Quirk, we have all today received an e-mail But my main area of concern is, apart from being able from the Communications Commission, announcing the to access funds in a special fund for this sort of thing, I news that Cable & Wireless have been permitted to extend would make the guess, in fact, that if that fund had not been their services. I just wonder whether this really is urgent to available to the Department, then they may well not have go through today and whether investigations should be made been in a position to go with this because they would have to see whether they or any other operator could provide a had to find the finance from within their own resources. system which is up to the requirements of the Department The biggest major concern I have is that, to me, going of Education. If it is only going to take a couple of months with Manx Telecom is Government putting all its eggs in one to put through, and the present contract does not end till basket and I think that is a big mistake. Government have February, then I really do not see the urgency to deal with done similar things in the past with other initiatives, where this at this time. all the eggs have been in one basket, the basket has splintered I also wonder, was this the Department’s choice, or has and shattered and Government have been left with egg on its it been forced upon them to go with this system? Is it really face. I would not like to see that happen here, but I would the preferred choice and will their current IT management suggest that if Members support it, that could potentially people be in full control of their system or will this be taken materialise some time in the future. So I am looking for a out of their hands and put in the hands of ISD, who seem to lot more reassurance before I support this. have an attitude that there is a right way, there is a wrong way, and there is their way and their way is the only way. I The President: Mr Braidwood. wonder whether the Department’s IT specialists will remain in full control of their system, as they undoubtedly will know Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. what is best for the students and teachers. Mr President, I think the Minister will verify that, when With regard to the current system, which I believe the system was put in by Domicilium six years ago it was operates over quite a bit of microwave links, the ongoing an excellent system and I don’t think there have been any costs associated with the new system… will that incorporate complaints when it was initially put in by Domicilium, who links, or will that incorporate their circuits which will have put the network in. I know that Domicilium now seem to to be leased, or will that be included in the overall contract concentrate more on data centres than networking. that we currently have with Manx Telecom? I think those are It has also been mentioned about tendering exercises: important things that need to be looked into. The Minister I am just wondering if the Minister could ratify, or clarify, said they were going to be cost neutral, but presumably, if that, in actual fact, there was a tendering process for Connect the schools that are currently connected with radio links Mann a few years ago, and I do believe that Domicilium have to be connected with lines, those lines have rental, were invited to tender, and I believe, in all sincerity, that it under the terms of the licence Manx Telecom have. These is as the Minister has said, it is CoMin’s 2007 ICT policy lines are rented. Is that part of the package or is that going for all Departments to come under the umbrella of Connect to be extra? Mann.

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I believe this is probably the right time, if the equipment So please, Hon. Members, there is always a cost of these is now coming to its end, that the Department is under the things, but without the computer system we have within umbrella of Connect Mann so that all Departments have the Government, we would cease to exist. We would just logjam same access to the technology. I do not know what number within a matter of hours and all Hon. Members should have of faults the Minister has mentioned in the explanatory seen that, when their computer system in a Department memorandum. How many faults? It says here that escalating crashes for a couple of hours, that you have people almost Mason’s costs. I hope she will be able to give that figure, walking around wondering, what can they do, because we but, once again, I do believe that Domicilium have done a are so dependent upon it. good job, it has come to the end of its life and now we will Hon. Members might not like that, but that is a reality have to have Connect Mann. of running an efficient Government and, again, let us not beat ourselves up; the Government, most of us, if not all, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmin. are part of that Government for 20 years’ continual growth. This has not happened by accident, this has happened by a Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. strategy put in place by politicians before I came along, but I will try and help the Hon. Minister, but maybe I will also by officers and a main plank of that is our computer upset people along the way, so I apologise if I do that. system. Therefore, it is easy to criticise the investment we I have worked in DTI, I have been in charge of ISD have put in it. at one stage – or the ISSC – and been in education before Please support this, support investment technology, so coming into this Court. From my time in DTI I believe we can actually live up to our rhetoric about allowing the Domicilium to be one of the finest companies on the Island freedom to flourish because that can only work with private that have advanced the quality of the ability to communicate and public sector working together and using the first-class worldwide for the benefit of our economy. They, along with communications that we should be proud of and promote, any other communications companies have been first class rather than, at times, try to denigrate or pull down. and I wish them well long into the future. When I hear the comments from the Hon. Member of The President: Minister to reply. Council, Mr Turner, now in DTI, I think there needs to be a familiarisation with some of the procedures and policies The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. of Government with regard to ISD. The amount of money Now, I am not a computer ‘tech’, so when you are talking which has been spent is enormous – we are aware of that – we about circuits and connections and goodness knows what, are also saving hundreds of thousands of pounds by actually well, you have got to count me out, I am afraid. I press the putting this in place and every one of us in the House of Keys, button, it comes on and it sends messages miraculously! So when elected, were talking about efficiencies of government. I endeavour that our future generations of children will be To actually try and have to update your computer systems is able to do more than I can and they already can. I think that an everyday occurrence for businesses as they go forward it is worth placing on record, first of all, that the teaching and Government is now the biggest organisation on the Isle and learning that we have with our computer facilities is of Man. To actually have the opportunity for all education exemplary. I think that we need to keep that at the forefront of establishments to be linked into the telephone system and the our minds when we are considering this, because the service computer system will have ongoing savings with the contract that we have had has served us very well to date, but now with Manx Telecom. It may not be known to everybody, we have to move on to that next stage. but the mobile phone system within Government – mobile If I could just refer to some of the Hon. Members’ phone to mobile phone – is part of the contract, so it is all comments, Mr President, the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr free phone calls when we are phoning inside Government Watterson, referred to the loan charges and over the period and within the mobile system. of time that the loan charges would be repayable. I am afraid The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Watterson, was talking I do not have that information, Mr President, and I am happy about ‘energy efficient’. We are hoping to bring on later this to circulate it after today. year a new package which will allow all of the Government But in respect of the amount of energy use that we will computer systems to go to sleep mode and the amount of be making, it is not anticipated that we will be using any energy that that will save will run the MER for an entire more energy then we are already. We are not replacing the season. We are talking about some vast elements of using the equipment in schools. We are replacing the system that is technology to actually reduce our carbon footprint, to reduce empowering the equipment in schools and that is where the our energy consumption, to reduce the telecommunications system will hopefully continue without much difficulty. costs and to be more efficient. Now we had a concern raised that the system had been The Department of Education have been advised that tendered for. In fact we are coming, Mr President, into the they are to come into this Connect Mann system, and I scheme Connect Mann, which was indeed tendered for am sure there will be certain officers within the Education to Manx Government by Manx Telecom and Domicilium Department that would prefer to stay in the system they some years ago, and Manx Telecom won the contract. Now have evolved and grown with over the years. One of my we are coming within that, so it does fit within Financial school friends and former colleagues, Alex Townsend, is Regulations, in that we are coming within a system that has one of the finest teachers I have ever come across and has already been tendered for. I think it is fair to say that it has, been running the computer bus since the time he was at St I think, probably got two or three years to run and no doubt Ninian’s and I was a teacher there. Some of these people that contract will be up again and others will be invited to are first class within the computer skills that they give to tender at that time. our young people and there is an opportunity here to bring I was asked the question about the problems that we have them into this system. had with the provision of the service from Domicilium. I do

Renewal of ICT Intranet Infrastructure – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1193 T125 not want to go too much into that, Mr President, but it is fair FOR AGAINST to say that we have had incidents, where it has caused us Mr Earnshaw Mr Quirk Mr Brown Mrs Cannell problems. The server – or whatever you might like to call Mr Crookall it! – the building in which it is secured in Douglas actually Mr Anderson had a water tank overfill one day, or a bath overfill, and it Mrs Craine came down onto the equipment down below. That caused Mr Bell us a problem, to say the least. We have had other instances Mr Quayle where the system has fallen over. Mr Teare Mr Cannan And at this point, I would just like to say, Mr President, Mr Cregeen that yes, we have a tremendous record for delivering teaching Mr Houghton and learning with IT; but more and more our small team of Mr Henderson 4½ people over in the Department of Education are getting Mr Malarkey called upon for technical technician assistance, rather than Mr Braidwood Mr Corkish enhancing the teaching and learning in our schools. Now, Mr Shimmin they are not there primarily as technicians; they are there Mr Cretney primarily to improve the skills of our staff in delivering Mr Watterson education. That is where I think that we are going to gain with Mr Gawne this system, because here we have the opportunity to release Mr Gill those staff to do the job for which they have been employed The Speaker and, at the moment, they are having to spend too much time The Speaker: in actually keeping the mechanics of the job going. Mr President, the motion carries in the I think that we ought to just note, Mr President, that the Keys, 21 votes for, 2 against. Department of Education has done extremely well within the In the Council – system that we have been operating for some considerable Ayes 7, Noes 1 amount of time. But circumstances have changed. We now FOR AGAINST have to come within Government, if we are going to be Mr Callister Mr Turner enabled to securely share information with other Government Mr Crowe Departments and, in saying that, I mean in particular in Mr Downie reference to Integrated Children’s Services. We have to be Mrs Christian Mr Lowey reassured that the exchange of information is secure and safe Mr Waft and enabled to be transferred easily. So that is an important Mr Butt part of this whole package. The Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, there referred to the severance of the contract with Domicilium. are 7 for and 1 against, Hon. Members. In that case, the I can assure the Hon. Member that, in fact, discussions first motion carries. began on this issue with Domicilium last October 2007. In February 2008 it was made clear to them that we would be moving away from the system. And so that discussion has gone on for a considerable amount of time and was certainly Laxey Car Shed nothing that was dropped on them unwittingly. Expenditure approved So I would like to thank Hon. Members for their contributions. I am sorry that I cannot answer some of the 14. The Minister for Tourism and Leisure to move: technical issues surrounding those questions, but I feel assured that this is the way to go. We need to have a robust That Tynwald approves the Department of Tourism and system to take our computer systems forward in the future, Leisure incurring expenditure not exceeding the sum of if we are going to maintain the reputation that we have not £323,107 in respect of the construction of a replacement just in the Isle of Man or in Britain or the British Isles, but Car Shed at Laxey. across the globe. We do have so many people from across the globe coming and looking at our systems, and that is [Reference: G16-015 Item no. 15 under the heading something that I am happy to share with them and want to Department of Tourism and Leisure on page 9 of the further promote, Mr President. 2008-09 Isle of Man Budget and as detailed in the Capital I hope that Hon. Members will support us being able to Estimates 2008-09 to 2012-13 under the heading ‘New do that today. Schemes’ on page 57 of the 2008-09 Budget]

The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put The President: Hon. Members, we turn to Item 14 to the Court is printed at Item 13, Hon. Members, on your headed up, the Laxey Car Shed. Minister for Tourism and Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. Leisure, Mr Earnshaw, to move, please. The ayes have it. The Minister for Tourism and Leisure (Mr Earnshaw): A division was called for and electronic voting resulted Thank you, Eaghtyrane. as follows: Eaghtyrane, due to its central position on the Manx Electric Railway system, Laxey is considered to be the In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 2 most suitable location for this much-needed engineering

Renewal of ICT Intranet Infrastructure – Expenditure approved Laxey Car Shed – Expenditure approved 1194 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day maintenance and storage facility. The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. The present structure at Laxey is life expired, with the Yes, I would rise to my feet to say how very pleased I am, roof having been removed some time ago following safety on behalf of constituents in particular, that the Department concerns over its deteriorating condition. The overall and the Minister have come forward with this Scheme for a appearance of the remaining part of the building is less new Laxey Car Shed. than satisfactory, and obviously has a detrimental effect I would endorse much of what the previous Minister has on the surrounding area. In the past, the Car Shed at Laxey said, because I know it was his wish also to see this particular has housed engineering works vehicles, used primarily for Scheme progress. I say that not least because what you railway maintenance purposes and requiring dry storage to have today is something of which we should be ashamed, ensure their on-going good condition and to maximise their as the Hon. Member, Mr Cretney, has said, inasmuch as we useful life. These items included operational overhead line have a skeleton semi-derelict structure which is not only an works vehicles and access towers, together with a number eyesore to the residential properties at Lower Rencel Hill, of items of serviceable rolling stock. but certainly any visitors by tram coming into Laxey see When the roof of the building was removed, items this derelict structure without a roof, and it is not a good had to be transferred on a temporary basis to alternative advertisement either for the village or for the MER. accommodation, including the former bus maintenance The tram shed actually has quite an interesting history. facility at Homefield in Douglas, which has to be vacated The current structure dates back to 1930, and it was built to in March next year, when the lease expires. replace an earlier wooden-framed structure, similarly with The proposed new maintenance facility will be of similar a corrugated curved roof, that had been put up in 1904, but design and size to the existing structure and will provide in fact was destroyed by fire in 1930, and over the years, and improve the working environment for the Railway’s the trams that were housed there… particularly following engineering staff and much-needed secure and dry storage the end of the Second World War, when Manx tourism facilities for rolling stock used for operational purposes by was undergoing an Indian summer and many hundreds of the Manx Electric Railway. thousands of passengers were carried over the MER on the In addition, the majority of the historic fleet of operational trams. trams is currently kept in Derby Castle depot, including both In those days, I understand the Laxey Car Sheds operated the original trams, numbers 1 and 2. This arrangement is less two service crews – one in the evening and one in the daytime than ideal, as were there to be a fire or a similar catastrophic – and, on particularly busy days, this would be enhanced incident at Derby Castle, an entire class of tram could be destroyed. A renewed facility at Laxey would provide and the car and trailer sets were lined up on the head shunt sufficient covered area to store a representative selection to await the call from the Laxey station master to take the of trams, away from Derby Castle, particularly during the required number of… to load up with passengers for Douglas, winter lay-up period, and this would provide good insurance to make several return trips in the day, and this, of course, for us. from the deterioration of tourism, really, in the 1970s the last Capital funding approval is, therefore, being sought service crew, I think, was in the year 2000. But over those today for a further £323,107. This amount will cover the years it gradually… the condition of the Shed deteriorated cost of completing the construction phase of the proposed and became a depository for redundant rolling stock, or cars replacement Car Shed scheme and is in addition to the and trailers requiring repair and, as time progressed, these £50,000 previously approved by Tynwald for feasibility were not, in fact, repaired. and design fees. In 2002 the Health and Safety concerns were such Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my that the roof was removed from the structure and all – as name. the Hon. Minister and previous Ministers have said – the contents of the Car Shed were removed to Derby Castle or The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cretney. to Homefield. I am quite reassured by some of the statements that have Mr Cretney: Yes, thank you, Mr President. been made because my question, on rising, was to ask, with I am actually delighted to be able to stand and second the expiry of the lease in Homefield in particular this year, this resolution today. I really think it is something which the although there may have been an extension, I am not sure, Court should support and endorse, because for a long time what it… does this not represent, actually, a very useful the premises at Laxey are something which we should have opportunity to put back into storage some of the more valuable been ashamed of. items, pending the negotiations? Perhaps the Minister, When I was in the position which the Hon. Member now when winding up, would give us an indication of how far is – the Hon. Minister for Tourism and Leisure – despite the Department has progressed in negotiating with heritage the advice of some of the then officers, I wanted to have groups and real enthusiasts as to the restoration of some of something done about this. We were receiving representation these historic items: but could he confirm, Mr President, that, regularly from the Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Rodan. It indeed, the more valuable items will be relocated back to the really was in a state, and I am just delighted. Laxey Car Shed? Could he also indicate when he expects the It is, in my opinion, also financially the right thing to do, project to commence and when he expects it to end. in terms of the lease expiring at Homefield, to make best use But I very much welcome this move and congratulate the of this facility and to be able to house some of the historic Department, past and present, for bringing this about. equipment successfully into the future. I am delighted that the Hon. Minister has been able to make progress where I The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen. No? did not, and I am pleased to second the resolution. Hon. Member, Mr Houghton.

The President: Mr Speaker. Mr Houghton: Mr President, the Hon. Mr Speaker,

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Member for the area in which this shed is to be located, has is maintenance. Is there a canteen? Is there a shower block? really weighed up the pros and cons as to the need, and the We are left with a very slender piece of information, and gross need over many, many years that this tram shed, this car maybe the Minister would be able to circulate some plans shed… the condition that it has been in, has been outlined, as of the building, just for Members’ information. I say, by the Speaker. The Hon. Member for South Douglas, Mr Cretney, said The President: Minister to reply. he is ashamed. We should have all been ashamed of this. For many, many years that shed has been derelict, with the The Minister: Yes, thank you, Eaghtyrane, and I would roof off and trams, precious rolling stock has been left to go like to thank my colleagues for their favourable support derelict. It is not the first time I have raised this in this place regarding this. and another place about the same matter and what was to be I would like to, first of all, thank the seconder, Mr done about it etc. But we are now moving on. Finally, this is Cretney, former Minister for the Department. I certainly going to go ahead. I am sure it will have the full support of agree with him about the shameful condition of the Laxey Members and I am sure the Minister will be able to answer Car Shed and I think we should be grateful to him for his the questions put by the Speaker. persistence in keeping bashing away at this, to try and get I would like to ask the Hon. Minister this: that other something to happen over the years, because it could quite rolling stock that will not be able to go to the Laxey Car Shed easily have disappeared altogether. So I am grateful to him because the Laxey shed, I am sure will be used… be required for that. to be used for rolling stock, current rolling stock. There is all Mr Speaker: I am very pleased by his remarks – interested the other stock that is there up at Homefield will need to be in the history lesson we have had there. I do hope to be able moved. Has he an alternative venue and has he pursued other to work with the Laxey and Lonan Heritage people in due Departments? One Department I can think of being DAFF at course, to have tours around Laxey and I think Mr Speaker Knockaloe Farm, have got some space there in some, perhaps, would be the ideal man for guiding those tours at some stage redundant space in a barn or some of their area out there to in the future. So I think there is a future career there for you, hold on to some of this stock until these voluntary groups can Mr Speaker, on that one! come along and refurbish it. Laxey is very much the heart of the railway. It is the So I would be very grateful if the Minister could give us junction with the Snaefell Mountain Railway and the details of that and I am sure I speak on behalf of the Manx Heritage – Laxey and Lonan Heritage to which I have already Electric Railway Society, who have been campaigning for referred are very active. There is an awful lot of heritage and this now for a very long period of time. history in that area, with the Lady Isabella waterwheel, the Thank you. new waterwheel in Laxey Gardens, where the deads used to be, the Ant and the Bee, the railway up to the mines. There The President: Hon. Member, Mr Lowey. are lots of things going on in Laxey. I think it is a great place for visitors to enjoy a day out, to enjoy the cultural heritage Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. of part of the Isle of Man. So full marks for Laxey and Lonan I can confirm the former Minister spent 10 years trying Heritage. I think they are doing a good job. – it was his number one priority. It is like all priorities, of This certainly will provide some insurance and assurance course: you get derailed, don’t you? That is not a pun! (Several of our stock. I see that as one of the main purposes of this: Members: Oh!) That is not a pun! But it does get derailed, spreading the risk of the vehicles that we have got. All of when you have to do the rail and the IRIS scheme and then them at the moment are at Derby Castle. I am not very the mountain-tops and all the rest. comfortable with that, in view of the value of the railway Can I just say, I just thought the Hon. Member for the area, stock, so I think it will certainly help in that respect. Mr Speaker, was so circumspect in his words when he called Mr Speaker asked – and Mr Houghton has referred to this quaint building ‘semi-derelict’. I thought it was a very this as well – about Homefield and what is stored there. measured word. This is a blot on the landscape of Laxey; it is Different people will have different views on what is stored a blot on the landscape for the railway infrastructure, of the at Homefield. Discussions have been ongoing. We have heritage. It is a collection of rust holes held together by nature had positive discussions with most of the groups who were – I do not know how. It defies every known bit of gravity and represented, and I think we are coming to some satisfactory it is time the thing came down – long overdue. conclusions regarding that. I have not pursued storing I applaud the Department in bringing this forward. It anything with DAFF at this stage, but I thank Mr Houghton, has got to be done; it should have been done years ago, and the Hon. Member for North Douglas, for his idea regarding I applaud them for it. that. I shall do that.

The President: Mr Crowe, Hon. Member. Mr Houghton: Thank you.

Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister: We will see what can be achieved there. Again, like other speakers, I have no problem in supporting We are doing the best that we can, I think. I do not want it to this measure, but what I would like to see is some consistency be just a receptacle for what is at Homefield at the moment. I with Ministers where, we are talking about new properties, think it is important, with it being at the heart of the railway… or new buildings, or new developments, we tend to get, It is easier access to the northern end of the line. It is easier from some Departments site plans, elevations, a plan of the access the other end of the line, the southern end of the line, building itself, so that we get some idea of what is going into for works vehicles and men who are based in Laxey, so I the building. think it will be very useful in that respect. I am at a loss. We are getting a replacement, a like for like, Mr Lowey referred to this being a blot on the landscape: but I am not sure how much is going to be storage, how much absolutely right, Mr Lowey. Thank you for that.

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The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crowe – I will just lighthouse, Tynwald now appoints a delegation of three finish with this – referred to the lack of plans being circulated. Members and directs that, together with Her Majesty’s Sorry about that. I accept the criticism. I think perhaps we Attorney General (or such member of his chambers as should have done that. It is an oversight, although it will be he may nominate), they should meet with those persons built to replicate, as far as possible, what is already on the site they deem appropriate in relation to the use by the public at the moment, the same footprint. So it is the same size, the of the said footpath to ascertain whether the uncertainty same shape, probably the same colour as well. I do not think it regarding the public’s access to that footpath can be will be built with canteens and all that sort of thing, but there satisfactorily resolved without the need for a statutory will be better facilities for the workmen there, because of the Inquiry, and to make recommendations to the sitting of fact it will have a roof, for a start! (Laughter) I think they will the Court in April 2008.’ probably appreciate that! I think there will be a concrete floor in it, which there is not at the moment, and… to work on and Mr Cregeen better working facilities all round. So it is really being built primarily as a place of work, as well as storage. With that, I am supportive of our historic railways, the Amendments moved – Manx Electric Railway, the steam railways and all the heritage (1) In the first line of the motion for ‘has determined’ transport systems, the buses. I think some of you will already substitute ‘intends’; have seen the vintage bus that we have reactivated, the 1949 (2) After the word ‘of’ in line 1 of paragraph (a) insert – I think it is a Leyland – bus, and I hope to see all these well ‘(i)’; used in the future. (3) After the words ‘Langness lighthouse’ in paragraph I beg to move. (a) insert – ‘(ii) a path departing from the circular footpath at the The President: Hon. Members, the motion is that printed south-western side, leading to Langness point, (iii) the at Item 14, that Tynwald approves the Department of Tourism road from the car park to the lighthouse perimeter wall, and Leisure incurring expenditure not exceeding the sum of following the perimeter wall to the western side and £323,107 in respect of the construction of a replacement Car joining the circular path, (iv) a path from the north gate Shed at Laxey. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. of the lighthouse perimeter wall, following a route east The ayes have it. The ayes have it. along the existing walkway to the coastal path, (v) a path running north-south from the circular footpath to the herring tower, (vi) a path running north-south from the herring tower to join the existing walkway in (iv) above, Langness peninsula footpaths (vii) a path running due east from the herring tower along Debate resumed and further adjourned the route of the existing clear path to the coastal path, (viii) two further deviations from the circular footpath 15. Extract from the January 2008 Votes and Proceedings – to the eastern side, the first passing to the south of the industrial archaeology, and the second as a continuation Motion made – east of path (iv) above.’ Whereas the Department of Transport has determined to (4) For the words ‘said footpath’ where they appear in hold an inquiry pursuant to section 117 of the Highways paragraphs (a) and (b), substitute ‘said footpaths’. Act 1986: (a) as to the status under that Act of a certain footpath Mr Watterson on the Langness peninsula, namely that which follows the route from the Department’s car park around the coastline and passes to the seaward side of the Langness Motion made – lighthouse, and in particular whether the said footpath That this debate be adjourned to the sitting of the Court may be presumed to have been dedicated as a highway in April 2008, and that a delegation of three Members, under section 88 of the said Act together with Her Majesty’s Attorney General (or such (b) as to whether in the light of the findings of the said member of his chambers as he may nominate), should inquiry the Department should exercise its powers under meet with those persons they deem appropriate in relation section 39 of the said Act in respect of the said footpath to the use by the public of the footpath proposed to be the Tynwald now resolves that the powers conferred by the subject of an Inquiry to ascertain whether the matter of the Inquiries (Evidence) Act 2003 shall be exercisable in public’s access can be satisfactorily resolved without the relation to the said inquiry. need for a statutory Inquiry, and to make recommendations to the sitting of the Court in April 2008 before this debate Mr Anderson is resumed.

Mr Shimmin Amendment moved – Delete all the words after ‘Whereas’ and insert – ‘there is uncertainty in relation to the existence or Adjournment motion carried. otherwise of public rights of way over various footpaths Mr Lowey, Mr Cannan, Mrs Craine, Mr Cregeen, Mr on the Langness peninsula, and in particular that which Henderson, Mr Karran, Mr Malarkey and Mr Teare were follows the route from the Department’s car park around nominated and seconded. the coastline and passes to the seaward side of Langness On the first ballot Mr Cregeen and Mr Malarkey were

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elected; on the second ballot Mr Cannan was elected. persons nominated by the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association; four persons nominated by the Royal British Legion (Isle of Man County); two persons nominated Extract from the April 2008 Votes and Proceedings by the Isle of Man Trades Council; one person nominated by the Independent Order of Oddfellows; one person nominated Langness Peninsula Footpaths – by the Joint Ex-Servicemen’s Association; and six persons Motion made – nominated by the Council of Ministers, one of whom shall That this debate be further adjourned until the end of be a Member of Tynwald. the current parliamentary session, or until the report A Committee member nominated by the Royal British of the delegation of Tynwald is laid before the Court, Legion, Mrs Frances Killey, resigned in April 2008. Mr John whichever is sooner. Cleverley has been nominated by the Royal British Legion to replace her. At its meeting on the 19th June 2008, the Council Mr Shimmin of Ministers agreed, subject to the approval of Tynwald, to appoint Mr Cleverley to the War Pensions Committee for the Motion carried. period ending 15th July 2012. Mr President, Hon. Members have already been circulated with a copy of his application The President: Now, Hon. Members, Item 15. form and references. I therefore request that this Hon. Court Item 15, Hon. Members, and it is an adjourned motion approves the appointment of Mr John Cleverley to the War from January to April. Mr Shimmin. Pensions Committee for the period ending 15th July 2012. I beg to move, sir. Mr Shimmin: I… Mr President, I think (Laughter) somewhere along the line, Mr President, there was an The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. aspiration that I should move an amendment. So I beg to move: Mr Gill: Thank you, Mr President. As the Tynwald Member on the War Pensions Committee, That this debate be further adjourned until the sitting of could I wholeheartedly second and commend Mr Cleverley the Court in October 2008. as an excellent member to be considered for this membership, sir. I beg to move, Mr President – I think! The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is that The President: Mr Anderson. printed at 16 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Anderson: I beg to second, Mr President.

The President: Mr Cannan. Economic Initiatives Committee Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask to support this Report 2007-08 received and recommendations amendment – it is a serious issue and hopefully, hopefully, approved as I said earlier, the matter can be finalised in October. 17. The Chairman of the Standing Committee on Economic The President: In that case, Hon. Members, the motion Initiatives (Mr Speaker) to move: that I put to the Court is that Item 15 be adjourned to the October sitting of 2008. Those in favour, please say aye; That the Report of the Standing Committee on Economic against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Initiatives for the Session 2007-08 [PP89/08] be received and the following recommendations approved: (i) the Department of Trade and Industry should keep under review the possibilities for growth in the market for health insurance; War Pensions Committee (ii) research should be undertaken to establish whether Mr John Cleverley appointed there would be any significant economic benefit to the Island to be derived from the transfer of commuter traffic 16. The Chief Minister to move: from car (or bus) travel to rail travel; (iii) in the meantime, the refurbishment of the two Donegal That Mr John Cleverley be appointed to the War Pensions railcars presently in the possession of the Department of Committee for the period ending 15th July 2012. Tourism and Leisure should proceed; and (iv) a report on the issues which the possibility of The President: Item 16. The War Pensions Committee. commuter rail travel raises should be made by the The Chief Minister to move, please. Department of Tourism and Leisure to the sitting of Tynwald in July 2009. The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr President. The President: We will turn to Item 17. The Chairman of The Isle of Man War Pensions Committee, constituted the Standing Committee on Economic Initiatives to move. under the Isle of Man War Pensions Regulations 2002, Mr Speaker, please. amended in January 2005, consists of 18 members appointed by the Council of Ministers, with Tynwald approval, from The Chairman of the Standing Committee on Economic persons nominated from the following organisations: four Initiatives (Mr Speaker): Thank you, Mr President.

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Hon. Members will recall that the remit of this Committee been proactively addressed and that cosmetic surgery is to be is to monitor and consider economic, fiscal and monetary the subject of forthcoming legislation. This will be another initiatives of the European Union, international agencies and area which will be kept under review, and we will be asking states, and economic factors generally which may affect the the Department in the new session to update us on progress. Isle of Man, and to report, with or without recommendations, We have also noted in recent days, Mr President, the private each July and such other times as the Committee deem sector has a proactive stance in some of these matters in necessary. This is a wide remit, Mr President, and in deciding central Douglas. what issues to study, we therefore invited suggestions from Mr President, it is frustrating to note that the opportunities Members and, where possible, we have pursued them. to grow the market for private health insurance, especially Before the Court now is, accordingly, the Committee’s for corporate customers, appears to be limited by the extent Annual Report. In presenting it, I would emphasise at to which businesses are using UK-based insurers, by reason the outset that we are not here necessarily to criticise the of their belonging to UK-based groups of companies. We Government, but to look constructively at the matters within believe that the Department of Trade and Industry should our remit and to examine the activities of the executive keep a close watch on this sector, since we see no reason in in relation to them. If all is going well with the issues we principle why the fiscal and other advantages of Island-based consider, we should say so, and in a number of instances, underwriting should not be brought to bear. we have done just that. That brings me, Mr President, to the subject which We start with the issue of visiting cruise ships in our has occupied most of our attention this session, which is Report and the evident potential their business has for the commuter railways. Mr President, we are well aware of tourism and retail sector of the economy. It is particularly the mountain of scepticism which anyone wanting to focus timely to be considering this area of activity now that the attention on this area must be prepared to climb. But there is pontoon in Douglas Harbour has just been brought into no escaping the reality that commuter transport problems are use, indeed, in a matter of the last couple of weeks. The with us to stay and they take many forms: ever-increasing fuel Department of Transport is to be congratulated for promoting costs; the economic cost of wasted time in congested traffic; this initiative, which will encourage visits from cruise ships. and environmental pollution. An expanding population It is widely recognised, however, that this is a limited step can only increase the pressure that these factors exert and towards exploiting that trade as fully as possible, and that lengthen the queues of single occupancy cars making their rough weather, to which we are no strangers here in the Isle way across the Island every single day. If – and we accept that of Man, can still be a serious impediment to visitors coming it is a big ‘if’ – our existing rail networks can be somehow ashore comfortably and conveniently, notwithstanding the harnessed effectively to alleviate these problems, it must availability now of the pontoon. surely be worth giving the issue serious attention. The real answer, of course, is a deep-water berth Hon. Members will see that the Committee has received in Douglas Harbour, and we are pleased to see that the a considerable amount of evidence from both the Department Department is moving that project forward in the way we of Tourism and Leisure and from private sector consultants describe at paragraphs 8 to 10 of our Report, but when we took with regard to the feasibility of using, in particular, the evidence on the matter, we were told that the Department of southern steam railway line for commuter traffic into and Tourism and Leisure were only just beginning the preparation out of Douglas. of a business case for a deep-water birth, and it is clear that The Department has not been unaware of the need to such a berth cannot be built before 2010 at the earliest. assess the potential for rail travel and previous studies, which Mr President, the Committee will be keeping this we detail in our Report, have been undertaken with, it must important part of the Tourism Strategy under close review be said, quite discouraging results. But circumstances and over the coming session and it is to be hoped that the split technology move on and we believe that the evidence we departmental responsibility between the Departments of have received shows that the recent upgrade of the southern Tourism and Transport will not lead to a loss of impetus. line, as well as the existence of two unused and only partly Internet pharmacy is a well-established business in refurbished diesel powered railcars in the Department’s many areas of the world, and it would be strange if the Isle possession make it worthwhile to put a cautious toe in the of Man did not give it serious consideration as a business water and to proceed with the complete rehabilitation of development option. As Hon. Members will see from the railcars. paragraphs 11 to 16 of our Report there are thought to be These railcars known as Donegal railcars would be of real significant opportunities, though significant difficulties as use as standbys for the steam railway, whose engines are of well. This is a matter on which we are more than satisfied now some age and increasingly unreliable, and they would that the appropriate parts of Government are fully seized of be available for an initial and again cautious experiment the issues currently and are progressing them well. We are with commuter services. The capital expenditure involved pleased to note that our researches have confirmed that this would be relatively modest, being in the region of £250,000, area of business is, in principle, regarded as fully ethical we are advised. by the Royal Pharmaceutical Society. At the moment, Mr There is no doubt, however, Mr President, that research President, there is nothing further I can really usefully add is needed to establish whether there would be real and to that. quantifiable economic benefits to the Island in promoting In a related sphere of health-based activity, we turned our a major switch from road to rail travel and whether the attention to corporate health insurance, cosmetic medicine Department’s existing preference for buses as a means of and to medical tourism generally. Of these three subjects, public transport offers better value for money. We therefore evidence from the Department of Health and Social Security recommend that this study work should be carried forward satisfied us that the potential opportunities in cosmetic and that the Department should report the results of it to this health… cosmetic medicine and health tourism had already Hon. Court by this time next year.

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Mr President, we have mentioned, lastly, a topic on this year than in 2007, although it is a very difficult project which the Committee has only recently begun work: the to run using steam engines. They are not really at all suitable manufacture on the Island of medical devices. This is a for that. subject on which the Department of Trade and Industry I recommend, sorry, I welcome recommendations (ii), has helpfully briefed us, concerning previous initiatives in (iii) and (iv), not necessarily in the order in which they are this area. In addition, we have started taking evidence from presented. In my opinion, Eaghtyrane, it would be more the business sector, and members of the Committee have sensible to refurbish the railcars, that is the Donegal railcars, already visited a major trade exhibition to gauge the extent before we do anything else, in order to conduct an extended of the market. commuter rail trial, to see how successful that is. These It is, however, too soon to say more on the subject, except vehicles are quite pleasing really. I have seen them on two that the evidence we have received so far, leads us to believe or three occasions over the last 12 months; they were half that further investigation of it will be very worthwhile, and restored. The carriages themselves are pretty well there, I this we would intend to do. would say, and they look very attractive. I think they would Mr President, with that, I therefore beg to move the be an attraction in themselves, as far as the heritage railway recommendations as set out on the Order Paper under Item is concerned. I think the big job that is to be done on them 17. is with the engines that go in them, the diesel engines, so I think there is quite a lot of work to be put in there. I do not The President: Hon. Member for Malew and Santon, think it is going to be a cheap solution but I do not think Mr Cregeen. it will be all that expensive. I think this is a good halfway house for us to aim for. Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. So that would be my suggestion, if we are going to have a I beg to second and reserve my remarks. go at this, to refurbish the Donegal railcars first and conduct an extended commuter rail trial. Then use that experience, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Earnshaw. to feed in an assessment of economic benefits and potential value for money. Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Mr President, I also welcome the comments of the Eaghtyrane, at the outset, I would like to thank the Committee on the subject of facilities for cruise liners. The Committee for their Report. I certainly welcome the two Department has recognised the potential to develop cruise items affecting the work of my Department. business. My colleague, Mr Corkish, the Hon. Member for Before commenting on the substantive issues raised by Douglas West, has been busy on this. He has got a shipping the Report, I would firstly wish to address an item of factual background, I think he is an ideal person for this role and we correctness, to prevent something that is not quite accurate are making some progress in this respect. He is not singing finding its way onto the public record. I think in paragraph on the cruise ships just yet, but that might be something he 49 of the Report, it states: will be considering in the future. I would like to publicly thank him for his efforts in this so far. We have got more ‘It would also require adjusting the gauge of the horse tramway line […] to the gauge of the other two lines.’ ships coming this year than we had last year and I think we are moving in the right direction. I think Mr Corkish is In fact all the lines are of the same gauge. The only odd already a member of this Committee, so I look forward to one out we have got on the Island, I think, is the Snaefell him pushing forward on both fronts regarding that. Mountain Railway, because that has got a braking line in the I would just like to say, in regard to the cruise business, middle of the rail and it is a wider gauge. But the horse tram I was in Belfast meeting the tourist people there a little rails, the Manx Electric Railway rails and the steam rails are while ago. I think there are good opportunities for teaming all the same gauge. Different sorts of rail: the heavier one is up with our partners in the Irish Sea to make the Irish Sea the steam railway; the Manx Electric Railway is a slightly a destination, rather than just Douglas, because particularly lighter one because they are lighter vehicles; and again for with the increasing rise in fuel costs, I think it is attractive the horse trams, lighter still and a different profile. to cruise companies to perhaps visit a combination of But I am informed, Eaghtyrane, that for the horse trams Liverpool, Belfast, Dublin and Douglas. It is a reasonable to run on the same railway as the Manx Electric, they would journey – about four hours’ steaming between each port, so perhaps need a new wheel profile putting on them. it is a nice comfortable distance for overnight travel. It can be done at a more leisurely pace, and a more cost efficient A Member: Electric horses! (Laughter) exercise, to save fuel. I think if we can work more in partnership with them… I have spoken to people in Belfast, Mr Earnshaw: Not electric horses! and I will be looking with Mr Corkish at developing that Now, where was I up to here? (Laughter and interjections) line with our partners around the Irish Sea, to increase our I think that sorts out the… I hope that clarifies the issue about visitor numbers. the gauge on the different railways. The amount of economic benefit from cruiseline If we then turn to substantive issues and, first of all, the passengers I do not think is massive. They are people who commuter railways. The evidence of the Department – of my are here for a day trip, but I do not see any reason… We Department – should not be taken as being negative towards have got about 15 ships coming this year, but I do not see, the concept of commuter rail. In fact, it is the opposite. It is, over the spring, summer and autumn months, why we cannot after all, the Government policy to investigate the viability of perhaps get up to, in the next few years, one ship a week. commuter rail and it is a policy I actively support. I think I I think that would be a realistic and achievable target. So have tried to demonstrate that in a small way, during the TT perhaps 35 to 40 ships over the year: that would certainly periods in 2007 and 2008. It was certainly more successful help our case for the future.

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So I would just like to conclude by thanking once again vehicles to share with commuter traffic, rather than a single Mr Speaker and his Committee for the Report that they have person driving a car, generating space, pollution and burning put forward. I welcome a lot of what is in here. unnecessary fuel. But it does not say who should undertake the research. The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. Then the next recommendation says, ‘’in the meantime’ – so in the meantime, somebody is researching this, but we Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. do not know who. But then it says: When these things are first set up by Tynwald Court, the viewpoint and the thought that go behind moving for such a ‘in the meantime, the refurbishment of the two Donegal railcars Standing Committee are of the day what they are. I say that presently in the possession of the Department of Tourism & Leisure should proceed’, because I was one of the first Members to be on the very first Economic Initiatives Committee established in Tynwald and they report on: Court, and our primary function then was to monitor and consider economic, fiscal and monetary initiatives of the ‘the possibility of commuter rail travel raises should be made by…’ European Union, international agencies and states. That was where our primary focus was, to look at threats Quite frankly, Mr President, it is all over the place! It from outside of the Isle of Man in connection with our is not definitive enough, and there really is not here a clear survival here, and, of course, to look at the economic factors guide to any Department, other than Trade and Industry, to generally. All of that was added so that we could also look at keep the things under review – periodically look at this. There local issues. The feeling at the time was that we should not is no obligation or suggestion or request in this Report that, just focus on the local issues and forget the big picture for in so doing, they should come back at a future date and tell which the Committee was originally set up, but I fear that in us of what they have… how they have reviewed, what they fact that is what has happened. I note that all the Members have uncovered, have they done a review. I honestly feel on this Committee now are new to the task, new, fresh. that the whole Report is a total waste of paper. Well, I would not go so far as to say ‘fresh’ – Now, there might have been some new and exciting thinking on the Committee, (Interjections) in terms of ‘Well, A Member: Thank you! let’s look at this, and let’s look at that’. But I would have thought somebody as experienced as the Chairman, Mr Mrs Cannell: – but they are certainly new. Speaker – and, of course, I know, a very able and experienced Clerk to this particular Committee – would have kept them The Speaker: Your choice. on the straight and narrow a bit, so they do not lose the primary focus. Mrs Cannell: The primary focus seems to be on local The recommendations are not saying anything. The economic initiatives, and I just wonder what is happening previous Chair of this Committee has just laughed. Well, he out in the European Union there that might be affecting us, might well laugh, because he was there when we extended or potentially affecting our economic wellbeing, and why the remit of the Committee; but he knows as well as I, and is there not something to do with that in our Report? It is all the Chief Minister, that in fact this Committee was taken very well to look at economic initiatives in terms of trying to a lot more seriously, did a lot more in-depth study and generate increases in income for the Isle of Man per se, and evaluation, and came forward with some very positive stuff I think all of us would agree with that, but that should not for Tynwald to consider, and certainly placed an obligation be the primary focus. We have also got to be aware of what for each Department – whatever we came up with – to come others are doing outside of this country, so that we can better back and report, and if they did not, then it would be chased protect ourselves, be forewarned, forearmed etc. So I am a by the likes of the Committee that I now chair, the Scrutiny little bit disappointed that the main focus of this Committee Committee. seems to have disappeared into an abyss. But actually looking at some of the issues that have been A Member: Put it to them, then. covered by this Standing Committee, and looking at the recommendations which also appear on the Agenda, I am Mrs Cannell: So there were ways of checking and a little bit mystified as to which Government Department making sure that these things were done, but this is… The is going to be responsible for looking at these. I say that wording of these recommendations is so weak, or so lacking because the first recommendation is the Department of Trade foundation and direction… The very important one, which is and Industry should keep under review the possibilities for the research, it really does not say who they expect to do that growth in the market for health insurance: that is referred to research, and when the research should be done and when at paragraph 25. So that is quite clear at 25. we should expect something back on the research. The next one: So, obviously, we are being asked to support the ‘research should be undertaken to establish whether there would be any recommendations, but as I say, the second recommendation, significant economic benefit to the Island to be derived from the transfer I want some clarification on what was the thinking on that, of commuter traffic from car (or bus) travel to rail travel’. because I tend to go by the written word in here. If it ain’t written right, then I will not be voting for it. Well, there begs the question. There is a question in this, because it is saying research should be undertaken The President: Mr Callister, Hon. Member of to see if there is any significant economic benefit to the Council. Island. Well, of course there would be significant economic benefits to the Island by trying to pull people out of their Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President,

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Recommendation (iii) puts me in mind of a wonderful might learn something. Ealing Studios film called the Titfield Thunderbolt which some will remember perhaps, if you are old enough, which The President: Mr Cregeen. was a small line – it was one of the lines which Beeching closed down and the people in Titfield decided they would Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. like to run their own railway, and it was probably about as I will park it up shortly. We have had a large number of far as from Castletown to Douglas, I should guess, and there meetings, and the Member of Council, Mr Callister, when were a lot of laughs in that film – it was very funny. And I he said about ‘It’s been looked at before’… The whole rail am not going through the plot of that. infrastructure was looked at before, but it was renewal of However, thinking about rail network – if you can call it everything to put a commuter rail in, and what the Committee that, puts me very much in mind of that film. The rail network looked at is the best and most economic way to put on a we have is a few miles from Port Erin to Douglas and we commuter rail, not by renewing the whole service, because have got a few miles from the north on the old ‘Bulgham most of the south line has already been renewed, and I think Bombshell’, as Stuart Slack described it in his song. It does the Report that was put forward was actually before the not seem feasible to me to look for commuter travel on renewal of the line. either of them. I can imagine the Treasury Minister putting So this is a small-scale, toe in the water… Donegal diesels out his press release, describing how managing directors of have benefits for when the steam trains are not running. wonderful banks in the Isle of Man commute to work by They have to have a steam train on stand-by all day, just in horse tram for instance, and I can envisage the Chief Minister case one breaks down. The Donegal diesels, you just turn getting on the train at Castletown, coming into Douglas, the engine and off you go. So there are savings in time. It strolling along Athol Street with his briefcase in his hand would also work on the MER, so you have got the benefit and then returning on the last train at 8.30 in the evening, there as well. just giving him about time to walk from here to the railway So it is quite broad that we have been looking at, and station after Tynwald. It is just too small a scale, surely, to be the medical devices and everything else… It has been a very talking about commuter travel in the Isle of Man and, besides interesting year for the Committee. that, to get people out of their cars, you would have to prise them out today to get them into public transport. The President: Chief Minister. Now as far as research is concerned, Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell, as I see it, the research on this would be done by the The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Department of Tourism and I thought that both the present I do not want to get into the argument over whether the Minister and the previous Minister had already examined Committee has done what it should do or not. I will leave the situation and found that it would not be practical. I may that for the Chairman to respond to, but I do want to really be wrong on that score, but it seems that unless you could just make a point about the commuter rail. put in a really fast-track system by rail and unless you could I think it is very easy to take the view that the Hon. provide parking in the areas where there is none along the Member of Council, Mr Callister, made about it is only a stops on the way for people to leave their cars throughout few miles. It is actually 15 miles from Port Erin through to the day, then I do not think you can – it cannot be anything Douglas on the railway. There are, in fact, trams running in but a nonstarter. cities in the UK, which do less mileage than that and take people backwards and forwards, but I think one thing is, The President: Mr Cregeen. whether it is for today or whether it may be in the long-term future is something we should not just disregard. It is costing Mr Cregeen: I was amused to hear about the previous people who work in Douglas now and come from the south, committee and what their fantastic report came about, and I something like £30 to £40 a week to travel in and park and it was amazed because the last report that I can recollect was is getting more and more expensive. The key to anything like about car parks. What an international matter a car park was! this is actually our commitment to providing a good public It is quite surprising when the Committee has looked at a transport system, which I think we do, in terms of buses, broad view of how to get economic development regarding but in fact making it cheap and comfortable to reduce the the railway, regarding the cruise lines, regarding medical amount of car movements that are travelling on the Island things – it is not just local things that we are looking at. and possibly the amount of buses. This is inward investment that we are looking at, which So, you know, it maybe on the surface looks as if you will diversify the whole economy of the Isle of Man. Now are saying that really will not work. I think, as time moves surely as an Economic Initiatives Committee, that is the on and if we continue to see petrol prices going up and if remit, it is to look for initiatives for the economy and, you we continue to see a demand for car parking in Douglas, know – which cannot be met without more and more multi-storey car parks, then people might well transfer onto bus, train, Mrs Cannell: Point of order, Mr President. The Hon. tram, whatever we have to make it work. Member needs to read his remit, as a Member of this I remember travelling on the Donegal trams when I was Committee. a young feller. I have to say one of the biggest problems was the noise from the engines, because the diesel engines at that The President: It is hardly a point of order, Mrs Cannell. time were quite noisy, but it was an interesting trip. The line (Laughter) has been improved substantially since then. In fact, when the Mr Cregeen, continue. line was relaid, some of the curvatures were actually altered, so that if we wanted to have commuter trams, whatever you Mrs Cannell: Read the first two Reports, and then he call them, they could actually go at a speed, I think it was

Economic Initiatives Committee – Report 2007-08 received and recommendations approved 1202 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day up to 45mph – or 50mph. examine, so – If you look at it, you have got some major places of population and it might need a change of attitude from the Mrs Cannell: Point of order. public. The problem is the usual problem: the chicken and Why did the Committee see fit to write for ideas? Why the egg; which comes first? The public demand or creating did they not just – something the public will want and I think that is something we need to look at. So I welcome the point that is raised The President: No point of order. (Interjections) by the Committee, that we should look at this and as the Mr Speaker, continue. Minister for Tourism and Leisure has already said, it is already Government policy to look at whether or not we can The Speaker: Mr President, because we are a democratic do anything more effective. committee – (Interjections) we are a committee of Tynwald So I just make the point – it might be easy to say it is not – we have been established at the behest of Tynwald to act going to happen. The one thing the steam train certainly does, in Tynwald’s interest, and not unreasonable to gauge the is go right into the heart of Douglas, right into the centre. views of Members of Tynwald, I would have thought, as to The steam tram comes in… sorry the electric tram, of course, the areas to pursue. is on the outskirts to some degree, albeit you know, at the So I am a little bit disappointed in the Hon. Member’s Onchan side, but again it is how you tie up the service that attitude to this Committee. people want to get into the centre to work. So it might not I do thank the Minister for Tourism and Leisure, the be perfect, we do not really know, but I do believe looking at Hon. Member, Mr Earnshaw, for the welcome that he gave this with a view to seeing how we could plan for it to come to the Committee’s recommendations and I thank him for in, if things continue to go as they are, in terms of petrol correcting, if it was an error in the Report, about the gauge costs, emissions and so on then, in fact, it potentially could of the horse tramlines. We were certainly aware that – now be something in the future, people in this Hon. Court will say, he has mentioned it – there would be a new wheel profile thank goodness we have got this railway. It actually might required for the trams to work on the MER or the horse tram, be able tor help people get to and from work. So I would not and we took that as representing a difference in gauge. So write it off, I think there is a potential there. I thank him for that technical correction, and I thank him, as well, for the very positive way he has responded to the The President: Mr Speaker to reply. Committee’s suggestions and recommendations, both on the cruiseliners and on the commuter railways. The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. Certainly, the order of recommendation: there is nothing Can I, in winding up, first of all thank my fellow Members significant in having the refurbishment of the Donegal of the Committee for the interest they have shown in the railcars set out after the recommendation about the research, various subjects, and to the Clerk of the Committee, the because quite clearly, for any proper trial to take place, the Clerk of Tynwald. Donegal railcars would need to be refurbished first, and those There is no doubt that it is an interesting Committee. We trials would inform the research and the economic benefit. are not investigating mal-doing, we are not investigating Now, the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, something that has gone wrong after the event; it is a says, ‘Well, who would do the research?’ and we were proactive Committee that can take a broad view and just criticised for not making that clear in recommendation (ii). stand back perhaps from… The majority of members of the ‘Research should be undertaken’, it says. I appreciate the Committee serve on Government Departments, but to step Hon. Member, I do not think, was in the Chamber for all of back from Government work, take the broader view of what my presentation, my opening, but I did say – and I will just is good for the Island, and if we could wave a magic wand, quote it again: or if we could start with a fresh sheet of paper, how would ‘There is no doubt, however, that research is needed to establish we organise stimulating the economy. whether there would be real and quantifiable economic benefits to the Of course, the Committee was set up, as the Hon. Member Island in promoting a major switch from road to rail travel and whether for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, has said, some years ago. the Department’s existing preference for buses as a means of public I remember when it was set up it was as a response to the transport offers better value for money. We therefore recommend that this work should be carried forward and that the Department should perceived external threat to the Isle of Man’s economy, report the results of it to this Hon. Court by this time next year.’ principally emanating from Europe, OECD and the other bodies that were scrutinising us, and there is no doubt That, to me, seems clear enough and it is exactly what about that. We are questioned by the Hon. Member – and recommendation (iv) says. So I am sorry if this appears to she was quite correct to remind us about the remit and its the Hon. Member to be all over the place, and very weak origin – but she questions our area of examination, I think, and woolly, but it is perfectly clear. somewhat unfairly. Now, as the lead Department in both trams, trains and The first thing we did, new Members or not… and let buses, naturally the Department of Tourism and Leisure would us bear in mind this Committee is your Committee. It is a be the co-ordinating Department, but the recommendation Committee of Tynwald and Tynwald decides who sits on this is flexible. One would expect Treasury and the Economic Committee, but the first thing that we did as a Committee, on Division to be intimately involved in this research. But the formation, was to write to all Members of Tynwald, invite lead Department is clearly the Department of Tourism and them to suggest areas that this Committee could usefully Leisure, and that is, I would suggest, fairly obvious. examine, and it is fair to say that what we are examining is The weakness and the self-evidence of the what Members largely suggested that we do examine. I do recommendations in the eyes of the Hon. Member is from the not recall getting any suggestions from the Hon. Member fact that we say there should be research as to whether there for Douglas East at all as to what the Committee should would be significant economic benefit, and she actually said

Economic Initiatives Committee – Report 2007-08 received and recommendations approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1203 T125 of course there would be economic benefit. By definition, Initiatives Committee. Hon. Members, those in favour of we do not know that. We do not know. We cannot, without Item 17, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. research, quantify the benefit. That actually might be a very difficult job to quantify the added economic value to the A division was called for and electronic voting resulted economy and return such as to warrant the investment of as follows: multi-millions of capital expenditure, which is set out in the Report. We need research to establish is the economic In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 1 benefit… It is not, of course, ‘It is obvious.’ It is not obvious if it is less than the projected capital investment that would FOR AGAINST be required. We do not know whether the result of the trials Mr Quirk Mrs Cannell Mr Earnshaw and this whole exercise would be the displacement in road Mr Brown travel, not from the car with single occupants, but from the Mr Crookall buses, and the bus network has capital costs and revenue Mr Anderson operating costs which all come into the equation as to the Mrs Craine net benefit to be gained. Mr Bell Mr Quayle If the Committee itself had had the resources, it Mr Teare was minded to pursue the matter further, but we left the Mr Cannan recommendation with executive Government and the Mr Cregeen appropriate parts – that is why we have Government – to Mr Henderson do this planning and strategic decision-making, and that Mr Malarkey is, therefore, what we have recommended happen and that Mr Braidwood Mr Corkish Government come back this time next year with a report as Mr Shimmin to the possibilities raised for commuter travel. Mr Cretney That brings me on to the point of the Hon. Member of Mr Watterson Council, Mr Callister, who is right to say, yes, the Department Mr Gawne of Tourism and Leisure had previously examined and found Mr Gill The Speaker the issue unfeasible, and I did, in fact, credit the Department that it had not been unaware of the need to assess the potential The Speaker: The motion carries in the Keys, 21 votes for rail travel, but previous studies had been discouraging. But for, 1 vote against. I thought I had set out that we are in evolving and changing circumstances, both with the cost of fuel, growth of congestion In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0 on our roads, and the growth of the economy, that what might have been the conclusion of the Department a number of FOR AGAINST years ago needs re-testing, and that is no more than what we Mr Callister None are suggesting, that we look again and, indeed, as the Hon. Mr Crowe Member referred to when he said we need fast-track systems Mr Downie or else it is a non-starter. What we have said in the Report is Mrs Christian Mr Lowey that the Steam Railway, the refurbishment of the track, and Mr Waft the possibility of 50-mile-an-hour travel has changed the Mr Butt picture from previously, that that sort of speed and reduction in Mr Turner travel time potentially makes the whole matter more attractive and more feasible, and that is why we need a trial and the The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, there Department, very pleasingly, is up for it, for this trial. were 8 for, none against. Hon. Members, the motion therefore I thank the Hon. Member for Malew and Santon for his carries. input and his particular interest, as a southern representative, in the potential, I know he is very keen to see this matter progress. I thank also the Chief Minister, who rightly says that it is the steam train coming, as it does, to the end of Tynwald Standing Orders Committee Athol Street, that potentially does bring business commuters Second Report 2007-08 received and recommendations right into the heart of the business district. Now whether it approved is feasible somehow to have a link from the steam station… the railway station through to the sea terminal – appreciating 18. The Chairman of the Standing Orders Committee (Mr this would mean new trackwork along the quay, which has Speaker) to move: just been refurbished and recobbled and repaved! Well, that is a matter to look at if there is economic benefit, net benefit That the Second Report of the Standing Orders Committee to be gained, and I am sure this is something that would be for the Session 2007-08 [PP91/08] be received and that identified fairly quickly. the following amendments be made to Standing Orders So, Mr President, with that, I thank Members who have with effect from the start of the Session 2008-09 – contributed to the debate for the generally positive reception (i) Add to paragraph 5 of the Schedule to Standing that has been given to the Report and the Committee looks Orders (remit of the Scrutiny Committee) a new forward to carrying on with its work. subparagraph: 5.5 In paragraph 5.3, ‘secondary legislation’ includes The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is printed Orders made by Her Majesty’s Privy Council extending to at Item 17 on your Order Paper, headed up the Economic the Isle of Man the provisions of an Act of Parliament or

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of any Order, Rules or Regulations made thereunder. over 10 years since they were considered, and it may be (ii) In Standing Order 10.6 (Bills to be signed by a time to make a change. Would a right of reply lengthen quorum of each Branch), for the reference to section 10 debates unacceptably? Does the lack of such a right lead to of the Constitution Act 1961 substitute a reference to conclusions being reached on incomplete information? section 1 of the Constitution Act 2006. At paragraphs 25 and 26 of our Report there is mention of various ways in which the rigidity of the present debating The President: Item 18. Mr Speaker to move. procedure might be softened a little, without according a full right of reply to the mover of an amendment. In the case of The Chairman of the Standing Orders Committee both of these proposals, Mr President, the Committee would (Mr Speaker): Mr President, this is the Second Report of certainly welcome Members’ views. the Standing Orders Committee this session, and it deals Mr President, I beg formally to move the two changes with three matters: the remit of the Scrutiny Committee; to Standing Orders on the Order Paper. the order of voting on divisions; and the right of reply to amendments. The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member of Council. With regard to the Scrutiny Committee’s remit, the recommendation of the Select Committee on Immigration Mr Lowey: I rise to second, sir, and reserve my was that the remit should be extended to cover United remarks. Kingdom primary legislation extended to the Isle of Man. That recommendation was carried at the May sitting of this The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. Court. Extensions of United Kingdom legislation to the Isle of Man are normally done by means of an Order in Council, Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. and it is sufficient, therefore, to alter the remit of the Scrutiny Just on the one item there of the voting patterns: I actually Committee to include such Orders within the definition of welcome the Chamber voting together – although it has the secondary legislation which the Scrutiny Committee is not run favourably for me in the last couple of months, I authorised to examine. Our first recommendation, therefore, suppose! on the Order Paper, does that, and also, for the sake of But I still believe that the Chamber should vote together, completeness, brings within that extended definition any because, as many Members said to me, the argument is won United Kingdom orders, rules or regulations which may and lost not outside, but in here and really that is where the be extended to the Island by Order in Council. Any type debates… we are told by senior Members of the House the of United Kingdom legislation applied here by Order in debate should take place in this particular place, where all Council will thus now be within the remit of the Scrutiny the information is piled in, all those boxes are ticked, the Committee. value-for-money exercise has taken place and you have The second recommendation on the Order Paper is a Treasury concurrence and therefore a vote can take place. If technical correction to Standing Order 10.6 to cross refer there is an argument to be had or a discussion to take place, now to the Constitution Act 2006, instead of the Constitution and there is a difference of opinion, it is up to Members to Act 1961. appeal to the Members of both Branches here to vote in a Mr President, that deals with the Committee’s formal particular way. recommendations, but there are two quite substantive issues And I see nothing wrong with that. I used to watch, which we have considered at the request of individual years ago – I do not know whether anybody is in the Public Members and on which we have not, in the time available, Gallery at this hour of night – but even years ago, it was yet reached a common mind. We have, therefore, thought it not before radio came about, I suppose, it was the hardened useful to rehearse the arguments relating to these issues in our few used to listen up in the public section and you could Report and to invite Members to let us have their views. tell the patterns of the voting and where it was going to… I The first question was raised by the Hon. Member for still do it. I doodle and think about who is going to vote for Glenfaba, Mr Anderson, and concerns the effect of the and against, and often do win and often do lose on who is electronic voting system on voting in the branches. Hitherto, going to support things. the branches voted in sequence, whereas now they vote at the But for me, if you are looking for a guidance from me, same time. The difference is that the Council used, before as this particular Member for Onchan, I see nothing wrong voting, to know how the Keys had voted; now they do not, with actually both Branches voting together. And doing it and both branches vote together. Does this matter? The electronically is now speeding it up, and we are moving arguments are set out in paragraphs 8 to 14 of our Report. forward. Now that the system of electronic voting has hopefully settled down, and the adaptation to revert to sequential voting The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Christian. could safely and cheaply be made, it would be quite feasible to change back to the procedure which used to be adopted Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. when a division was called. I would concur with the view of the Hon. Member who The other issue was raised with us by the Hon. Member has just resumed his seat [Interruption] I repeat, because for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, and concerns the rule that we are invited to do so, that opinion, so that the Committee there is no right of reply in this Court for the mover of an can consider it. amendment. This issue was very fully debated when the When I first read this, I was rather curious about why present Standing Orders were comprehensively revised the Member who had proposed this be considered had in 1995 and 1996 and the Hansards of those debates are done so. I understand it was Mr Anderson. There were two appended to our Report. interpretations you could put on this. Was it so that we could Essentially, the arguments have not changed, but it is defer to the view of the Keys; in which case, why should

Tynwald Standing Orders Committee – Second Report 2007-08 received and recommendations approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1205 T125 we? Or was it to exercise, in some way, a tactical vote? It we may need to have our resources increased if we are going seems to me the way that we vote now gets the true view of to honour this obligation once it comes into being in the Council Members in the same way as it gives the true view 2008-09 session, but I do not think we, as a Committee, have of the Keys Members, all voting at the same time. a problem with that. I did put on record a little while ago that I had reservations about the impact such remit would The Chief Minister: We are not equal. have on the workload of the Committee and the fact that we scratch to get the necessary resources and expertise in place, Mrs Christian: I am sorry, Mr President. The Chief but I do not have any problem at all in supporting them. I am Minister has just said we are not equal. pleased the mover, Mr Speaker, referred to the substantive issues that are covered. The Chief Minister: You are not. First of all, can I totally concur with the views expressed by the Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Christian, in that we do Mrs Christian: In the Court, we have equal votes, in have now, with the electronic voting system where we vote any case. (Interjection by the Chief Minister) Whether or as one as a parliament, that we do get a true picture. That is not… democracy. Previously it was always suggested that we were When it comes to the differences between the Council not getting democracy, that the Keys would vote separately and the Keys, there are obviously procedures to be followed, and Legislative Council Members would sit and see which but I can see no reason, even if there are differences in the way the vote swung and they may decide to swing one way or constitution and structures of the Keys and the Council, why the other. I am not saying that happened, but what I am saying we should not vote all at the same time and express our true is that is what the belief was and that was the perception of views on the issues that are before us. So, if the Committee the day, and so we have jumped some great hurdles over the want my view on that issue, the present system of voting last few years in terms of getting this new system in place seems to me to reflect a proper expression of the democratic and voting as one as a democratic parliament and I do not views of all Members of the Court. think that we should be going backwards, I think we should be moving forwards. I have to say, the Hon. Member for The President: Hon. Member, Mr Anderson. Glenfaba, Mr Anderson, I do not recall him having been in support of this voting as one as a body anyway in the Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. beginning, so I would not expect him to support it now. I would like to thank the Committee for actually Going on to the issue that I support it, I wrote in. Now investigating the point which I raised with the Committee again, this was not a knee-jerk reaction. It has come after 12 and for saying that they would give it further consideration, years of experience in here – and experience in another place, and I respect other people’s views on this subject. in that, in the other place, whether or not you are debating However, since I have been sitting in this seat in this legislation or whether or not you are debating a motion, of Court, I have seen a change in the voting pattern since which we have a fair number over the last 12 years in the electronic voting came in, and that was primarily the reason House of Keys, if you move an amendment, you have a for me asking the Committee to examine this issue. It would right of reply. Sometimes when you are invited to reply on be interesting if the Committee did a little research into the your amendment, there is no need to make a reply because changing patterns, comparing how it has been going since the the membership has understood fully your intentions behind introduction of the electronic voting system and comparing it moving the amendment and either reject it forthwith, or they with a similar sort of time in the years before that. I think that support it. Nevertheless, they are called upon to give a right very often the Legislative Council does take a steer from the of reply. In here, of course, we have no right of reply when House of Keys. However, I have seen occasions where they we move an amendment. do not seem to be clearly knowing the mind of Hon. Members My writing and requesting the Committee to look at in this Court, and maybe that is our fault for not being so this was born out of frustration and outrage that there were clear. However, in the past, I think the Legislative Council some very serious debates that took place in here which, has generally supported the view of Keys, but sometimes, in tantamount, led to legislation being proposed in the House the last few months, I have seen them voting in a different of Keys. I will not refer to what those are, because I will pattern than they have done in the past. probably get murmurs of dissatisfaction, but there were So I would be very interested if a little research could be two major policy debates following which legislation was done into this by your Committee. But I have not changed put together to implement those policies. That tells me that my views: I still think that we should go back to the system the policy in many respects is just as important, if not more where the branches vote separately. important, than the legislation, because if the policy is not right, your legislation is not going to be right, either. But in The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. debating one policy, there were two or three amendments, and in the intervening period of having moved an amendment Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. and having already spoken in debate, and not being allowed Well, I have to say this is a good Report and I found it to speak again, unless somebody else moves an amendment, very interesting. In particular, I found it very interesting in which case you can attach yourself to that and speak reading through the Hansard which is annexed to the rear again on that amendment… Other than that, you have no of the Report, very interesting indeed. First of all, can I say recourse. that I have no problem in supporting the recommendations, So you might move a very valid amendment, you have no the primary one of which extends the remit of the Tynwald right of reply, but meanwhile the debate continues perhaps Scrutiny Committee, which I currently chair. for an hour, an hour and a half, two hours, in which case it Again I put it on record, I would suggest that, you know, has been totally skewed by those who would see it dumped.

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Mostly, it is the Council of Ministers, because mostly the When it came to the vote, they were voting on the Hon. amendment will be against a policy that they are wishing Member for Castletown’s amendment, which was for the to pursue that a number of us have a concern about, and we Committee to take it back and to take into account what want to modify slightly, we want to make it better, so that Members had said, and his amendment was: the legislation which flows will in fact be a true reflection of the assembly, of all views. But you do not get a chance ‘and the Committee consider the views of Members in debate and to correct that, so misconceptions can be fired off and all report.’ sorts of things cast into the debate which could put doubt in Members’ minds, particularly if they have not studied the Of course, when he moved that amendment, he did not get subject matter on which the policy debate is taking place, the opportunity to reply, and nor did other Members. When and many Members do not. We all cannot be experts in all you look at Hansard and you look at debates, they are off fields in this place. We tend to focus in certain areas where balance in respect of that. Tynwald Hansard is off balance we have a particular expertise or an interest, but together, when you read that, whereas in the House of Keys you get hopefully, it comes to the common good. There is no right the whole story – you get the start, the middle and the end of reply. – so you can see what the thinking was, as a member of the It is interesting, isn’t it, that the Committee, when they public reading Hansard . looked at this, looked at Hansard of previous debates? The Then the debate resumed again on 16th January 1996, first one took place in 1995, and the Speaker of that day where the same Speaker, I presume, had given way to his came forward and made recommendations to changes to Members of the Committee in not bringing forward the Standing Orders, which included having the right of reply to recommendation to allow a Standing Order to give a Member an amendment and also the right of reply to a motion to an in Tynwald Court the right of reply, but he did so reluctantly. adjournment. There were all sorts of scurrilous remarks made Mr Quine, the Hon. former Member for Ayre, took this up in that debate, and of course, one of the leading opposition and he moved an amendment. What he said, and this makes spokespeople for that was the Hon. Chief Minister, Mr sense, and I am saying this because I am speaking early and Brown, the Member for Castletown. He was vehemently I am expecting the Hon. Member for Castletown to get to opposed. Mr Lowey, the Member of the Legislative Council, his feet and start skewing the waters again – also had grave reservations. And then we had the voice of sensibility coming from a former Member of the Legislative A Member: Please don’t. Council, Dr Edgar Mann, who said, and I quote: Another Member: No, don’t do that. ‘we should introduce into Tynwald what was in the other place, in the House of Keys, namely, a right of response to amendments.’ Mrs Cannell: – as to why we should, all of us, not even consider this and not let the Committee go away and come – and I continue to quote – back to us with some kind of opportunity here. He said:

‘Now, I can well remember myself expressing exactly the same views ‘The position as I see it is basically this: Tynwald – and indeed, I would as have been expressed here this evening about such an introduction suggest, any body corporate – should, in taking a decision, have before in the business of the House of Keys.’ it the best, the fullest possible information, and if we have a situation, as we do not infrequently in Tynwald, where we have an amendment In other words, when the flexibility was allowed in moved to a motion which substantially replaces the principal motion and brings about a situation where the whole import and impact of the Keys, the same scurrilous remarks were made about the motion as the amendment proposes is completely different to the extension of debates, extended time to consider legislation substantial motion, then there is one party, I would suggest, who is and ‘Oh, it’s dreadful, and there shouldn’t be a right of reply’. best placed to provide all that information, and that is the person who Now, he was also concerned that that would happen in the has moved the amendment.’ House of Keys. It did not happen; it had not happened. But it is very fair and balanced, I believe, to have the right of Currently, there is no opportunity for Hon. Members to reply, and you may or may not choose to have it. do that. But then he went on to say: So the debate went on, and the Hon. Member Hon. Member for Castletown said – and there is only one section ‘In practice, we looked at this response’ I have highlighted – in terms of the Member moving the motion who cannot have a right of reply, he said, and I – this was the response in terms of ‘Ooh, you can’t do quote: that’ – ‘I think that if a Member cannot make his case in presenting his ‘very carefully, and the undesirable aspects that we expected in the amendment, then in fact that is unfortunate.’ other place have not actually materialised, and now we are starting to split it between legislation and policy, we had exactly the same fears on legislation and, if you look at the record, a large number of Members So he is saying, ‘It is an unfortunate situation but that’s who have put forward amendments never actually answer’, the way it goes – sorry.’ You can make your case when you get up and move the amendment, but then if you have people if they are invited to reply. skewing it – Members skewing it – after that and trying to Mr Quine, the former Member for Ayre, was very derail it, you have no opportunity to set it back on track. supportive, as was the Member for Glenfaba, Mr Gilbey. So I hope Hon. Members will… This affects every Hon. The Member who used to sit here in my seat was also Member in this Court. I know not all of us have actually very supportive, and of course, there are some very good moved amendments in here but the majority of us have. arguments in here. It is interesting, at the end of the day, in January 1996,

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Mr Quine moved an amendment to reinsert the provision debate where you see lengthy comments by other Members, for the Standing Orders to come back, to allow us to have other than the Member moving. So that might be worth a a reply, and it was only lost in the House of Keys by three thought. votes. That is how close it was. And the interesting thing is, Thank you, Mr President. Mr President, six of those Members who did not support it are still present in here today. The President: Chief Minister.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Callister. The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Mr President, just before I go into the bits, just to clarify Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. the point where I said Council are not equal, I mean it in I sat in that Gallery for 20 years, or whatever, listening to terms that, constitutionally, the Keys is dominant. Not in these debates here and then they made me a cabin, which was terms that as Members of Tynwald they are not equal: they very well set out, but through all that time, until electronic are, of course, equal, and that really is the point I am trying voting came along, I could not quite understand why Tynwald to make and want to make clear. as a body did not vote as a body, as one, because they vote The first thing is that this is not one Chamber; this is two separately in their own Chambers, and it made sense to me Chambers within one, so constitutionally the Legislative that when Tynwald… when all Members of Tynwald are Council sit separated from the House of Keys and we debate together, their vote should be consolidated as a vote. Then together but vote separately. That is our constitutional you had the situation where, if there was a difference, you position, if you look at how we are set up and I think there could come back in a month later and so on. is a misconception by Members, with the greatest of respect, But I entirely support what Mrs Christian has said now, who treat the Chamber as being one and therefore the vote for that reason, though I would also add to that the fact that of the lot. That means we are actually determining policy there are certainly three Members in the Legislative Council and that clearly is not the position. now who have not faced the general public for an election, The Council – my understanding and I look forward to and that can certainly perhaps make a difference to the way being corrected – but in all my time here I was always told they regard matters that come before them. and if you look at our constitutional position, the Council But it is intriguing to me that it was Mr Anderson who was there, if you like, to use its vote if it felt the Keys needed brought this matter forward, because under the old system, calming down or, hang on, you are going in the wrong he was of course – and the Member for that seat – always direction, we do not think you are right and that was how the first to vote, which did not give him any opportunity it went, to a degree. Of course, the Member could stand up to weigh up what was happening as the vote went along! I and say I wish to come back to Tynwald and vote as one think to some extent, this has arrived here in this form with body and if the vote stayed as it was, often it would mean this recommendation – or likely recommendation… It has that it would carry, because the Keys were dominant, but on stemmed from the fear of the Council of Ministers that there occasions – and we saw it not too long ago – in relation to the are now people with minds of their own up here, who are electronic voting, Members who, in the Keys, had supported not going to be swayed by what the Keys have had to say not introducing it were lobbied between one month and the during debates. next to change their mind to support having the electronic Now clearly, going back to numerous Houses of Keys, voting and that was because there was a difference between it was always the case, with very rare exceptions, that the the Council and Keys on the actual vote. Members of the Legislative Council listened to the vote in I would just say, I have never found the Council not the Keys and, as I say, almost invariably went with the Keys. willing to exercise the individual Member’s right to oppose Now there were certain Members – long-standing Members what the Keys wanted, if they think the Keys are wrong. I – who perhaps did not do that! There was always one or two, really have never seen that because they vehemently go to but generally that vote – as far as I could reckon – went with make a stance on what they believe is in the best interests the Keys. I believe that we should retain the system as it is, of the Isle of Man and they have always done that. I think, for the time being at least, because it has not had all that yes, on occasions, where they are reasonably content in the long a time to be tested and, from that point of view, I will older system, they took the lead from the Keys. ‘Okay, I am leave it at that. not going to go to the wall on it: the Keys want it, we will Now, as far as the right to reply to amendments is go with the Keys.’ concerned, quite a lot of the amendments are actually put The question here is, does the present system cause a forward by Government themselves, so I suspect some problem? The answer is if you look at it, no, it does not. members of the Council of Ministers would like to have There have not been many occasions where the Council a right to reply, anyway. But I think that if we went down and the Keys have been of a difference in their voting that route, we should have a very firm five-minute rule for pattern and I suspect that the Committee looked at, prior to replies to amendments. electronic voting, when that separation was there and now I would prefer, even perhaps for a trial period, to adopt with electronic voting, when they vote together, you will the Westminster method of ‘give way’, which means that actually find very little difference in the voting patterns, as the Member on their feet does not necessarily have to give to matters getting passed in Tynwald Court. If Mr Speaker is way, but will occasionally do so, and I think that would work looking for an indication, that is the sort of research I would possibly quite well. be doing, to say, has electronic voting changed the pattern If you look back at old Hansards from many years ago, in a way that does not recognise what we are here to do? So there was something similar to that – whether it was a looser I think that is important. operation in here or whether they had a ‘give way’ system as We should not lose sight of the constitutional aspect such, I do not know – but certainly there are many areas of of why we are here; two Chambers within one Chamber

Tynwald Standing Orders Committee – Second Report 2007-08 received and recommendations approved 1208 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day and therefore two bodies coming together to look after the or eight of those. interests of the people of the Isle of Man. One body elected by More importantly, when the Speaker comes to wind up, the people; one body elected by the Keys, the representatives I would hope that he is not just looking for comments in the of the people. I think that is important and we are in danger Chamber today and I will ask that he would allow a bit of – I am not going to go into the bigger issue of getting that time for Members to consider this and put their thoughts out of click and we have been drifting a little bit that way, together more cogently in the form of a letter or something to some degree, anyway, in my view. to the Committee that they could take away with them. So As far as the right of reply, I do not… I read the Hansard, with that, thank you. I thought it was quite interesting to read back on it. My view is the same as it was then and I would say to the Hon. Member The President: Mr Gill, Hon. Member. for Douglas East, what I did was actually refer it back to the Committee to look at again. I did not… I put my views Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. and said I do not believe it is the right thing. Quite simply, Again, very briefly, the point on the voting, I am Tynwald is a policy body, it debates policy, it passes… it deals personally more comfortable with electronic voting as it with secondary legislation, the Keys is dealing with primary currently is because, exactly as the Chief Minister has said, legislation, we are dealing clause by clause on an issue. A we are all equal as the two branches sitting as Tynwald Court. Bill with 48 clauses we deal with every clause individually Of course, the other advantage is it stops… The first person and therefore the ability to move an amendment in reply on was always Mr Anderson, or the Member for Glenfaba – in that detailed consideration of what might be two lines in my experience, Mr Anderson – and he always had to vote my view is one that you can say, yes, there is merit in that. I with his conscience, and frankly, by the time we got to the am not sure whether or not there is merit in Tynwald Court, end of the voting sequence – the same sequence every time that everybody who moves an amendment should have the – those Members at the end – those Members who happened right of reply. Now, the Hon. Member of Council said, well, to be in Malew and Santon – had the benefit of making a maybe if you restricted that to five minutes for each one, that very political judgement, rather than one on the principle. I might work, and it might work, I do not know. But I would think, if you are sceptical that any one of us would behave just make the point, we do see sometimes amendments in in such a low manner, then the easy way around that, as a here – and I made this point at the time when the report that compromise, is simply drawing our names out of a hat at was referred to in this was made, that in fact we could have random and we vote in that selection. I am not bothered a situation where we have five or six or eight amendments either way. I think the system we have works very well and to an issue and then you have got that number of replies I think it puts the onus on us acting as individual Members potentially and I just think Tynwald needs to be clear why of these Branches, this Court. it would want a mover of an amendment to have the right That brings me to my final point, and it is a throwaway to reply in that detail every time. It is a matter clearly for line but it is a very telling and a very damning one. When the Tynwald, it is an issue that the Standing Orders Committee Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk, talks about senior Members, are looking at and I think they should. The interventions – it what is he talking about? There is no such thing. After his self controls in a way and that might work, it was looked at time in this Court, he should know that. There is no such before and the issue was not so. thing as a senior Member. Do not listen to people who tell So I think my view would be that the voting system at you they are senior Members; they are telling you that to the moment, I do not believe, does cause a problem. I think it put you down. Do not listen to people who patronise you would be a worthwhile exercise to do some checking before or, dare I say it, matronise you with lectures. Be your own electronic voting and after. My view is, I think electronic person. There is no such thing as a senior Member. They voting deprives the people of knowing how we voted because are not because they are Ministers, or even, with respect, all they hear is silence and then the result, but they do not the Chief Minister. know which way each individual voted. You have got one vote, the same as everyone, (Interjection) As Members know, I am not a fan of electronic voting. and it is a pity, Eaghtyrane, that these comments go by We have debates and then silence. I think that is illogical, repeatedly. Either they are not sinking in, or we are not but Tynwald made its view and that is where we are today, making the message loud and clear enough, but there is Mr President. So they are my comments and I do not think no such thing as senior Members. We are all individual we should ignore our constitutional position, because I do Members, and it is reflected in the system we have, and think that is important. frankly, I think that is an advantage over the system we have previously had. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. I am going to be brief – Members know I am not a waffler. Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. There are only three points. Just in terms of firstly the point As a member of the Committee – (Interjection) Well, I that Mr Callister made about numbers who have not faced will tell you in a minute! I am supporting my Committee! the public in an election: he said three, of course it is four. I I am sure I speak for all my colleagues when I say it is think he may have forgotten the Bishop. case of déjà vu. We have gone through this debate in the In terms of the right to reply to amendments, I think Committee! We have heard nothing on the floor today that my view is similar to the Chief Minister’s, but I think we did not discuss round the Committee table and I think it Mrs Cannell has today amply demonstrated at length why was very wise of the Committee to bring it back and ask for we do not allow amendments – responses to every single the Members’ views because I think it is important. amendment, because I do not think I could sit through six I was fascinated to hear the mover… not the mover; the

Tynwald Standing Orders Committee – Second Report 2007-08 received and recommendations approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 1209 T125 man who asked for the voting pattern to be changed, Mr system right and if the system ‘ain’t broke’, well, let us not Anderson, to clarify in succinct terms why he wrote the way fix it; but if it needs fine tuning, then let us fine tune it. he did. It was changing patterns of voting in recent months, I think the Report is a sensible one. It deals specifically as he perceived them. I just put down at the bottom here, with the two main issues, as Mr Speaker has said, and on well there are changing personalities, so I am not surprised the other two, we have invited your comments. there is a change in voting. But these new Members did not I welcome the debate because I think it is healthy, and I materialise out of nothing. They have not just sort of decided, think both sides have put their case well. I know which side ‘Hang on, this is where we will sit – instead of in that corner, that I am tending to agree with at this moment in time but, over in that corner.’ They were voted in: they were voted in again, like Mr Speaker said, let us look at: have the votes by you, the Keys. So that is number one. changed? The perception may be, in Mr Anderson’s view, it But can I just say, it is very interesting when you go back has. I suspect when we examine it, it may not be as dramatic in the Hansard, and I was fascinated, too, by reading the as he thinks. Hansard. Just in case those of you have not read it, I was on the Standing Orders Committee, I think for about 25 years, The President: Mr Crowe, Hon. Member. and we decided to have a complete review. The first time, I think, for 60 years, we decided to completely review them: Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. it took nearly two years to do so. I remember it well, because I know the hour is late, and I know I am a Member of the the month after we have approved them, we actually had… Committee, but to short-circuit the debate I was just going to there was a fault in them, so so much for the review! But say – and I think it was Mr Gill said it – if you are not willing that is an aside. to speak tonight because of the time, please give your views But I was fascinated, in reading it, to discover why I to the Committee, or to the Secretary of the Committee, stood my ground and said no. I was – let us face it, Mr because we would be very interested. Speaker Cain and Dr Mann were both good friends of mine One point that has been raised – and I know Mr Callister – I was determined that I was going to put a minority report has mentioned it – is this question of giving way. I know in, but to try and get continuity and unanimity, the Speaker Mrs Cannell is quite adamant in wanting the right of reply then at the time, the Chairman of the Committee, said, ‘If I to amendments, but we looked at this problem of extending express your reservations on that particular issue, will you it, and we have amendments that completely chop out sign the report?’ Yes, I would get the report the unanimity, the original motion and you get a new amendment which and so we did. completely replaces the motion, but this question I would So I have got no difficulty at all. Like Mr Brown, when I like you to consider is of giving way. It works in the House read the Report, I thought what I said then was right and what of Commons, it works in the Welsh Assembly, it works in I was thinking. Now I have not changed. I have not changed various parliaments, and I think if you could comment on that my mind. Mind you, it is a fool that never changes his mind, it might give us a steer as to how we could not necessarily after 15 years. It is no great defeat, not to change your mind go along with Mrs Cannell’s suggestion but have a halfway from time to time. So, fascinating, in looking back in history house, that people could give way, either not to give way on why we have arrived at where we have arrived at. when the Speaker or the President can intervene and ask to Can I just also say that your Committee, in asking for be given way. I thought that would be a sensible way, and your views, we want to have a feel. Mrs Cannell has a I think only one or two people have mentioned this, but I legitimate point of view, when she says she wants the right would like you to have a think about that and maybe submit of reply. If you read the debates, those arguments were put, your views to the Committee. and in a democratic vote, 13 Members of the Keys voted against. I think it was 10 for; and in this Council, it was 4 The President: Mr Speaker to reply. for, so it was a tie up this side. But the Keys democratically said, no, we do not want any change at this particular time. The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I will keep my I think Mrs Cannell is equally right, like the Hon. Member remarks as brief as I am able. (Interjections) It is not always for Glenfaba, in asking for a review, after that length of time: a feat I do manage, but… nothing wrong with that at all. In line with the previous speaker, the Hon. Member, Mr Your Committee reflected the view that we should ask, Crowe, and indeed Mr Lowey on the Council, we would first of all, what your views are on both those subjects, before very much welcome further comment in written form to we came to a final conclusion. Also, I think, your Committee the Committee, but so far as this debate is concerned, I do actually reflected the voting pattern of the last time, so it has thank Hon. Members for a very useful debate and for setting given you some idea of the workings of the Committee: it out their views. is a split committee. But it is a very good committee, in the Not surprisingly, the two issues that have drawn comment sense that we are prepared to look at topics that have been are, fully as the Committee expected, whether there should raised by Members and take into consideration… because be simultaneous voting between the Chambers, and Mr what we are after, in the Standing Orders Committee, is to Quirk, Mrs Christian and Mr Callister certainly made make sure that Tynwald actually works effectively and, as their views very clear on that, as did other Members. We the Chief Minister said, in the constitutional way it has, to the will certainly take up the point about looking into whether benefit of this Court, obviously, but for the benefit of good there are changing patterns – there may be, there may not governance of this Island. That is what it is about. be – but I think the crucial point, and it was first raised by And remember at the key… at the heel of all of these Mr Callister, who said he could not understand why, in 20 arguments is: sound government means that the Isle of years of observation, the vote was not taken as one. This was Man can be effective in earning a living for the people of immediately picked up by the Hon. Member for Castletown, this Island and that it is what it is about. We want to get the Mr Brown, who is quite correct to point out that it was a

Tynwald Standing Orders Committee – Second Report 2007-08 received and recommendations approved 1210 T125 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JULY 2008 Orders of the Day constitutional reason. Continuation of business after 8.00 p.m. If you go back to the Report, I will just read out these Motion lost two paragraphs. They are very important, because it, I think, explains why there is this dilemma and why it is not as The President: Now, Hon. Members, according to straightforward and clear-cut. Page 4, paragraph 10: Standing Orders I have to put it to you at eight o’clock whether or not we continue. ‘In favour of reverting to the practice of sequential voting is the view Hon. Members, the next three Items I think we could that there was a constitutional purpose in allowing the Council to probably clear off comparatively quickly. I would be very take account of the votes in the popularly elected chamber before deciding how their vote should be cast… the Council should at least content to continue to those if you would so desire. However, be conscious of the Keys’ vote when about to cast their own votes… Hon. Members, I also will tell you that it is my intention In this context, the provision in Standing Order 3.19 for a combined in the morning, subject naturally to your approval, Hon. vote the following month, where a motion has been carried in the Keys Members, but it would be my intention in the morning to but lost in Council, recognises that the two branches do not have equal be helpful to both the Treasury Minister and his officials to status in the event of disagreement – as does the provision in Order 3.18 that the President’s casting vote when the Council is divided is start tomorrow morning at Item 27. There are 20 Treasury in favour of the Keys.’ Items in a run on the Order Paper and I would like to keep them going in one run in the morning, starting there, Hon. This, I think, illustrates the constitutional reasons for Members, and taking from Items 27 to 46, those 20, so that having had the vote separately, and what the Hon. Member the officials and the Treasury Minister know exactly where is suggesting – Minister Anderson from Glenfaba – is that we are up to. we give consideration to acknowledging that constitutional Hon. Members, do you wish to continue to take the point. next three Items or not? (Several Members: Yes.) (Several We make the point in the Report that these provisions Members: No.) I think, Hon. Members, the noes have it. have never been seen as implying a reflection on the (Several Members: Divide.) Divide? Okay, Hon. Members, independence or integrity of the Council’s Members, and a call a vote on it. Those in favour, vote yes. Those against, return to sequential voting would carry no such implication. no. (Laughter and interjections) However, having said… I think that was an important point to emphasise, and the Committee will go back now to A division was called for and voting resulted as look at this point, to look at the strength of that particular follows: argument. As far as the right of reply is concerned, the mover In Tynwald – Ayes 21, Noes 9 of this suggestion – the original mover, Mrs Cannell, the FOR AGAINST Member for Douglas East – naturally made the case to the Mr Quirk Mr Earnshaw Committee, and we will take on board her views, and all Mr Brown Mr Cannan the views, that exercise of right of reply in Tynwald, as in Mr Crookall Mr Henderson the House of Keys, is justified because of the importance of Mr Anderson Mrs Cannell underlying policy which is made and debated in Tynwald. All Mrs Craine Mr Braidwood I would say is we make the point in our Report that technical Mr Bell Mr Gawne Mr Quayle Mr Gill legislation and technical amendments to legislation which Mr Teare Mr Callister end up in statute law is, unlike policy, not as straightforward Mr Cregeen Mrs Christian to change. It is different. There is a difference between the Mr Houghton two. Arguably, it is therefore more important to give the Mr Malarkey right of reply to amendments in legislation, whereas policy Mr Corkish Mr Shimmin can always be altered. But it is a debating issue, this, and Mr Cretney again the Committee respects her views and why they are Mr Watterson being advocated. The Speaker She quoted from earlier debates, and in particular Mr Mr Crowe Quine, who emphasised the need for the right of reply to Mr Lowey Mr Waft amendments in order to correct misinformation in the debate. Mr Butt A possible answer to that is what the Report has flagged up, Mr Turner and other Members have referred to, and that is the question of interventions, giving way as an alternative to actually what The President: Hon. Members, we require 22 votes in might be potentially lengthy rights of reply. favour to continue, I have but 21, Hon. Members. Therefore, So, Mr President, I thank Hon. Members for a real flavour we cannot continue, Hon. Members. That is going on a vote, of the conflicting views. The Committee I do not think has that is the way it carries. got an enviable task in taking these on board, but we would Hon. Members, I will start tomorrow morning at Item certainly welcome further more detailed views in writing. 27. Hon. Members, half past ten, Item 27. With that, I beg to move. Thank you. The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to the Court is that which is printed at Item 18 on your Order Paper, Hon. Members. Hon. Members, those in favour of Item 18, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The Court adjourned at 8.20 p.m.

Tynwald Standing Orders Committee – Second Report 2007-08 received and recommendations approved Continuation of business after 8.00 p.m. – Motion lost