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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, 21st May 1996 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: modifications as Her Majesty may specify by Order in The President of Tynwald (the Hon Sir Charles Council; and subject to any such Order references in this Kerruish OBE LLD (hc) CP). In the Council: The Lord Act to the United Kingdom shall be construed as including Bishop (the Rt Rev Noel Debroy Jones), the Attorney- the Isle of Man.' General (Mr J M Kerruish Q C), Mr B Barton, Now, article 17(2) of the 1996 order before the Court Mrs C M Christian, Mr D F K Delaney, Hon E G Lowey, inserts paragraphs into schedule 4 to the United Kingdom His Honour A C Luft CBE, Dr E J Mann, Messrs Trade Marks Act 1994 which amend a number of Acts of J N Radcliffe and G H Waft, with Mr T A Bawden, Clerk Tynwald. Article 17(3) of the order laid before the Court of the Council. inserts entries into schedule 5 to the United Kingdom Trade Marks Act 1994 which have the effect of repealing In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon J C Cain) (Douglas provisions of Acts of Tynwald. West); Mr A R Bell and Hon T R A Groves (Ramsey); Mr It may well be these amendments and repeals of Acts R E Quine OBE (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); Hon of Tynwald in the order before the Court are modifications H Hannan (Peel); Mr W A Gilbey (Glenfaba); Mr S C to the United Kingdom Act of 1994 for the purpose of Rodan (Garff); Hon D North (Middle); Hon R K Corkill extending that Act to the Isle of Man. However, the Court and Mr J R Kniveton (Onchan); Hon B May and Mr E A has before it United Kingdom subordinate legislation which Crowe (Douglas North); Messrs D C Cretney and purports to amend and repeal Acts of Tynwald. I draw this A C Duggan (Douglas South); Messrs P W Kermode and to the attention of the Court and would suggest that the R P Braidwood (Douglas East); Mr A F Downie (Douglas Chief Minister might care to make a statement at the next West); Hon J A Brown (Castletown); Hon D J Gelling sitting. (Malew and Santon); Hon M R Walker CBE LLD (hc), Mr J Corrin and Hon N Q Cringle (Rushen); with Prof T StJ N Bates, Clerk of Tynwald. PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT

The Lord Bishop took the prayers. The President: I call upon the learned Clerk to lay papers. APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE The Clerk: I lay before the Court: The President: Hon. members, I have apologies for absence from the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 - and the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine, has leave to Investment Business (Fees) (No. 2) Regulations absent himself from the proceedings to give evidence at a 1996. (SD No. 151196) planning inquiry as he wishes. Investment Business (Exemption) (Recognised Persons) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 149/96) Investment Business (Exemption, Etc.) (Stockbrokers) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 150/96) TRADE MARKS ACT 1994 (ISLE OF MAN) ORDER 1996 — STATEMENT Investment Business (Exemption) (Miscellaneous) BY THE PRESIDENT Regulations 1996. (SD No. 152/96) Investment Business ( Clients' Money) Regulations The President: Now, before calling upon the learned 1996. (SD No. 153/96) Clerk to lay papers I wish to make a statement on the Trade Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) Marks Act 1994 (Isle of Man) Order 1996 which is to be Regulatory Code 1996. (SD No. 156/96) laid before the Court at this sitting. Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) The order is an Order in Council made under the United (Amendment) Regulatory Code. (SD No. 155/96) Kingdom Trade Marks Act 1994, section 108, subsection Investment Business (Indemnity) (Designated (2). That subsection provides: 'This Act also extends to Recognised Regulators) Order 1996. (SD No. 154/ the Isle of Man, subject to such exceptions and 96)

Apologies for Absence Trade Marks Act 1994 (Isle of Man) Order 1996 — Statement by The President Papers Laid Before the Court T734 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

Fees and Duties Act 1989 - Gaming, Betting and Lotteries Act 1988 - Licensing Fees and Duties Order 1996. (SD No. 215/ Crown Green Bowling Festival Order 1996. (SD 96) No. 187/96) Music and Dancing Fees and Duties Order 1996. (SD No. 216/96) Cremation Act 1957 - Cremation (Fees) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 170/ Cinematograph Act 1977 - 96) Cinematograph (Licence Fees) Order 1996. (SD No. 217/96) Local Government Act 1985 - Local Authority Members (Attendance Allowances) National Health Service (Isle of Man) Act 1948 - Order 1996. (SD No. 218/96) National Health Service (Isle of Man) (Charges) (Amendment) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 193/96) Reports - Implementation Report by the Department of Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985 - Transport on the Transport Strategy for Douglas. Vehicle Duty (Amendment) Order 1996. (SD No. Progress Report of the Council of Ministers on the 221/96) Implementation of Part II of the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into Child Care (McManus Value Added Tax Act 1996 - Report). Value Added Tax (Treatment of Transactions) Interim Report of the Select Committee on (Trading Stamps) Order 1996. (SD No. 199/96) Allegations of Mr R D Wolstenholme. Value Added Tax (Trading Stamps) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 200/96) Pension Scheme - Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme 1995. Customs and Excise Act 1993 - Air Passenger Duty (Prescribed Rates of Interest) Value Added Tax Act 1996 - (Amendment) (Application) Order 1996. (SD No. Value Added Tax Regulations 1996. (SD No. 194/ 201/96) 96)

Welfare of Animals Act 1981 - Currency Act 1992 - Welfare of Livestock Regulations 1996. (SD No. Currency Act (Cat Crowns) Order 1996. (SD No. 182/96) 214/96) Currency Act (Bicentenary of Robert Burns Social Security Act 1982 - Crowns) Order 1996. (SD No. 213/96) Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 3) Order 1996. (SD No. 223/96) Trade Marks - Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 4) Trade Marks Act 1994 (Isle of Man) Order 1996. Order 1996. (SD No. 224/96) (SI 1996 No. 729)

Pension Schemes Act 1995 - Child Custody Act 1987 - Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Child Abduction and Custody (Parties to Order 1996. (SD No. 225/96) Conventions) (Amendment) Order 1996. (SD No. 277/96) Social Security Act 1986: Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 - Licensing Act 1995 - Social Fund Maternity and Funeral Expenses Licensing Court Rules 1996. (SD No. 210/96) (General) (Isle of Man) Amendment Regulations 1996. (SD No. 226/96) Merchant Shipping Act 1985 - Merchant Shipping (Standby Vessels) Regulations Access to Health Records and Reports Act 1993 - 1996. (SD No. 171/96) Access to Health Records and Reports (Health Merchant Shipping (Mandatory Reporting) Professionals) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 202/96) Regulations 1996. (SD No. 172/96)

Licensing Act 1995 - Appointed Day Order - Licensing Regulations 1996. (SD No. 198/96) Licensing Act 1995 (Appointed Day) (No. 1) Order Permitted Hours (Clubs) Order 1996. (SD No. 197/ 1996. (SD No. 196/96) 96) Reports - Fire Precautions Act 1975 - Report to the Council of Ministers of the Gaelic Fire Precautions (Flats) Regulations 1996. (SD No. Broadcasting Committee for the year ended 31st 222/96) March 1995.

Papers Laid Before the Court TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T735

Report by the Chief Secretary on the Complaints and I am endeavouring to secure a meeting with the made against Departments of Government and chairman of the BBC to discuss those issues. I am Statutory Boards during the year ended 31st proposing to involve the chairman and the director of the December 1995. Island's Communications Commission in those discussions when they take place. European Communities - European Communities instruments circulated Mr Cannan: A supplementary. Can I ask the Chief during March 1996 (GC No. 16196) and April 1996 Minister, has he already applied to the previous chairman (GC No. 17/96) of the BBC for an interview and, if so, was he successful or was that request rejected and will he now advise us as International Agreements - to whether the new chairman of the BBC, Sir Christopher International agreements which the Isle of Man has Bland is prepared to meet the Chief Minister of the Isle of requested to be extended to the Isle of Man during Man? the period 1st January 1996 to 31st March 1996 - Trademark Law Treaty. Mr Walker: Mr President, this exchange of correspondence between myself and the chairman of the International agreements which the Isle of Man has BBC started back in April of last year. It started an exchange requested not to be extended to the Isle of Man of correspondence before requesting a meeting. A meeting during the period 1st January 1996 to 31st March was then requested when it was clear that we were not 1996 - going to get anywhere through the correspondence route. Council of Europe Agreement on the Exchange I have to say that a meeting has not been refused by the of War Cripples between Member Countries of chairman, but it has not been acceded to either. I do believe the Council of Europe with a view to Medical that a meeting is in prospect and rather than writing directly Treatment. to the BBC now, we have taking the route of contacting the Home Office and doing it through formal channels. I have no doubt in my mind that a meeting will be held in BILLS FOR SIGNATURE the not-too-far-distant future.

The President: We have five Bills for signature, hon. The President: A further supplementary, sir? members, and if you are agreeable we will continue our business while they are being signed. Is that agreed? Mr Cannan: Will the Chief Minister agree that it would be a most desirable facility for the residents of the Isle of Members: Agreed. Man if there was one BBC regional service that provided television cover for the whole of the Isle of Man rather than, as at present, receiving television cover from various BBC regions, all of which are unsatisfactory? BBC TELEVISION —ALL-ISLAND COVERAGE — QUESTION BY MR CANNAN Mr Walker: Yes, Mr President, I do agree. That is the principle on which we have been contacting the BBC and, The President: Turning now to the question paper, hon. before I was involved, the Communications Commission members, I call upon the hon. member for Michael. itself. Question 1. There is the matter of the Island receiving all the same service from the BBC on the broadcasting front and there Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Chief Minister: are also, we believe, some problems as far as the technical reception is concerned and it is those two issues we are (1) Are you aware that residents in the north of the wishing to talk to the BBC about in some detail. Island are unable to receive BBC 1 North West television, but instead receive BBC 1 North from Mr Downie: Mr President, is the Chief Minister aware Newcastle which has no interest in promoting Isle that in the United Kingdom people who pay TV licence of Man news; and fees are subject to certain rights under the Citizen's Charter? Would the Chief Minister, when having his (2) are you making representations to the BBC at the dialogue with the BBC, see if any of the people who receive highest level to provide all-Island coverage of BBC the signals in the Isle of Man would be covered by the 1 North West? same conditions as apply to the Citizen's Charter in the United Kingdom and if the reception here is far below that The President: The Chief Minister to reply. in other areas of the United Kingdom, perhaps we should be pursuing a reduction in licence fees if a proper picture Mr Walker: Mr President, the answer to both parts of cannot be provided for that sort of money? the question is yes. The origin of the BBC 1 signal into the Island and the quality of reception of that signal in various Mr Walker: Mr President, for the purpose of the parts of the Island are the subject of ongoing representations Wireless Telegraphy Act and our payment of the BBC and

Bills for Signature BBC Television — All-Island Coverage — Question by Mr Cannan T736 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 their service to the Island, the Island is as part of the United EVIDENCE TO COMMITTEES — GUIDELINES Kingdom. It is my belief, working on that premise, that — QUESTION BY MR DELANEY we should receive just the same standard of delivery from the BBC as would a resident in the United Kingdom and, The President: Question 3, the hon. member of the although perhaps the Citizen's Charter does not apply to Council, Mr Delaney. the Isle of Man as such, I do not believe that that is any excuse for us to settle for anything less than our Mr Delaney: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Chief counterparts have in the United Kingdom (Members: Minister: Hear, hear.) and I do believe we should use all the routes available to us to get a reasonable answer to this question. What guidelines does your government provide for members of the government and civil servants when submitting written evidence, or giving oral evidence, to DOCTRINE OF COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY committees of this hon. Court and its branches? — QUESTION BY MR RODAN The President: The Chief Minister to reply. The President: Question 2, hon. members. I call upon the hon. member for Garff. Mr Walker: Mr President, no guidelines have been provided by the government for members giving evidence Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Chief to, or appearing before, committees of Tynwald or its Minister: branches. In the case of civil servants there is a memorandum of Does the doctrine of collective responsibility still guidance for officials appearing before the Public Accounts apply to the Council of Ministers? Committee of Tynwald. That memorandum is included as an annex to the Civil Service regulations and has formed The President: The Chief Minister to reply. part of those regulations for about 12 or 13 years. There is, in addition, a paragraph in the published Council of Mr Walker: Mr President, the Council of Ministers Ministers guidance note of June 1992, which is entitled does operate a system of collective responsibility. The `Ministers and Civil Servants: Duties and Responsibilities', system is of some long standing, and the principle of the and that paragraph discusses the role of the civil servant in Council operating such a system has been approved by representing his minister before a select committee of Tynwald. Tynwald.

Mr Rodan: Mr President, would the Chief Minister The President: A supplementary, sir. agree that the people of the Isle of Man are entitled to strong government which speaks on policy with one Mr Delaney: Does it concern the Chief Minister, in a voice and that the effectiveness of government itself is supplementary, if I may ask, Mr President, that in recent undermined when one government minister, on Border sittings of committees of this hon. Court civil servants seem Television and the local media, publicly disagrees and to arbitrarily take the decision whether they should answer contradicts another government minister whose job it is to the questions as reported in the media or not, according to bring support for that government policy? how those answers may affect them individually rather than in the interests of the Isle of Man? Mr Cretney: He said it before he was a minister. Mr Walker: I believe, Mr President, it is important for Mr Walker: Yes, Mr President, I do believe that it is in anybody who is appearing before a select committee of the interests of the Manx people to have a strong executive. Tynwald to give what evidence they ask for in a frank and I believe that that is the case but it also has to be recognised realistic way. If there is a reason why that information that we do not have party politics in the Isle of Man and should not be given, perhaps they are concerned about whether that will happen or not will be a matter, I would litigation or some court appearance or whatever, then I suggest, for our constituents. But at this stage we are, in believe that that is a situation that can be clearly understood the main, elected as Independents and it is important, I by the committee that is taking the evidence and there are believe, for hon. members, whether in the executive, a a number of ways in which the committee may take further department or wherever they take a stance as members of information from the department, from the civil servant or this hon. Court, to be able to express those views of their from the ministers without prejudicing that legal situation, constituents in particular. and I think it is important that that is understood by I do not agree that it would be right for any member of everybody who is concerned. the Council of Ministers to be in a situation where he could not express that view on behalf of his constituents. At the Mr Delaney: A further supplementary, Mr President. same time, I believe it is important in the way that a minister Would the Chief Minister not agree with me that rather or any other member of this hon. Court expresses that view than the civil servant declining to answer, he should state and he certainly should not try and bring his colleagues to the committees of this Court, as under the Tynwald into disrepute in any way at all. Proceedings Act, a reason why he does not wish to answer,

Doctrine of Collective Responsibility — Question by Mr Rodan Evidence to Committees — Guidelines — Question by Mr Delaney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T737 so that the public will have some knowledge of why he is Will you consider the introduction of a single not answering rather than get the impression that the person's allowance to offset liability for rates, including answers are not going to be given because it might upset water rates? some politician or the individual themself? The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply. Mr Walker: I do not think, sir, there is any reason not to answer a question before a committee of this hon. Court Mr Gelling: Mr President, let me say at the outset that just because it might upset a politician. I think there has to there is no provision in rating legislation for a single be a more realistic reason for a refusal. (Mr Delaney: Hear, person's allowance. Let me also make it clear that rates hear.) I am also clearly of the understanding that the are not service charges but property taxes. They are taxes presiding officer of the committee, the chairman of the on the occupation of property in the same way as income select committee, should be in a position to indicate tax is a tax on income and VAT is a tax on goods and whether or not he, or the committee, is satisfied in the way services transactions. the information has been received from the witness or, if Judging by the fact that last year Treasury collected, as that information has been refused, then there should be a agent, 98 per cent of rates due for the year, I would suggest clear understanding of the reason why. also that people do not consider them to be too onerous. Government does not charge rates, other than the water Mr Delaney: A final supplementary, Mr President, if I rate, and any reduction in rate income would be borne of may. If it is not the job of the committee to get to the bottom course by the local and churchyard authorities who would of any given affair involving the taxpayer's money, how need to increase the rate in the pound levied to everybody will they ever get the answers if the administrators refuse in that particular area to cover the loss of income. or decline to answer questions and then that question is The Department of Local Government, of which the not given another opportunity to be pursued? questioner is a member, is addressing the future role of local government and the financing of same, including, I Mr Walker: I have not suggested, Mr President, that it understand, a rebate scheme if they find that appropriate. I is not the job of the select committee and it is not in the would suggest, therefore, that the time to consider the rating interests of us all and the people we represent for a select system and any allowances for all classes of citizens and not only single persons would be at that time. However, I committee to get to the bottom of a particular subject or do suspect most local authorities prefer the present system line of inquiry. I do believe, though, that it is important for to any alternatives. the committee and for civil servants and for ministers and I would also point out that, in any event, it is not clear for members to recognise the possibility of litigation or from the hon. member's question what form the single whatever, or even prejudicing the right of a department in person's allowance should take. If perhaps he has in mind some way, to recognise that and understand that and take an additional income tax relief, it would, I feel, be a most it into account during the proceedings. inappropriate route to take. Besides the complication of single persons living at home who contribute one sum to Mr Kermode: A supplementary, Mr President. Can I the overall household expenditure, there is the added ask the Chief Minister, would he not agree with me that complication of rented accommodation where the rental this is one of the anomalies with the ministerial system, agreement is inclusive of rates. It would be both a where politicians get involved with management and it cumbersome route, I would suggest, and bureaucratic to actually sterilises a civil servant from actually doing his administer and in any event would do little for those on job for fear of upsetting the minister or members of that low incomes who do not pay income tax because of the department? existing generous personal allowances. Mr President, at this time I find myself unable therefore Mr Walker: I do not believe, Mr President, it has got to support the concept. the remotest thing to do with the ministerial system. The same sort of conflicts have arisen ever since I have been a The President: A supplementary, sir? member of this hon. Court and there has to be the same loyalty between civil servants and boards or committees Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. First of all I or statutory departments, or whatever they are, as there is would like to ask, is the minister aware that a single between civil servants and ministers. I do not see the person's allowance is available in the United Kingdom and ministerial system as changing that situation. is much enjoyed and appreciated by those who live alone and are in receipt of old age pensions, and secondly, I would like to ask the minister, does he not consider it somewhat RATES LIABILITY — SINGLE PERSON'S unfair that an elderly person living in a property on their ALLOWANCE — QUESTION BY MR DOWNIE own should be, say, for argument's sake, paying the same water rate as a family next door with nine or 10 members, The President: Question 4, the hon. member for and does he not think that some consideration should be Douglas West, Mr Downie. given to this element in our community who are, in my opinion, finding it extremely difficult to make ends meet Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to and some sort of recognition should be given to their role ask the Minister for the Treasury: within the community?

Rates Liability — Single Person's Allowance — Question by Mr Downie T738 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

Mr Gelling: Mr President, yes, I am aware of the whether they work in Douglas, Port Erin or Ramsey or situation in the United Kingdom but, as in the reply to the Castletown. However, I am not in any way influencing the original question, what I was explaining was of course that private sector in the salaries that they pay their employees it is a property tax irrespective of who is living in it, and I and perhaps it would be a time to suggest that if the parking take the point that the hon. member expresses, that a single is becoming too expensive the buses are still quite person in a large property obviously has more difficulty reasonable and this could be a case of people having to than a family with many incomes coming into that family. readdress the way in which they actually get to their place But again I would suggest that this is an area that my of employment. colleague the Minister for Local Government and the Environment will be addressing in what they are looking Mr Corrin: Mr President, can I ask the hon. Treasury at now in the whole of the local government structure. Minister if he advocates the use of buses, why car parks for members of this hon. Court indeed are provided at government expense and he is suggesting that we should CAR PARKING CHARGES — join on the buses with other low-paid people? QUESTION BY MR CORRIN Mr Kermode: You have had one for four years! The President: Question 5, the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Corrin. Mr Gelling: Mr President, obviously, as I have already said to the hon. questioner, I am aware but it has not been Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister brought specifically to the Treasury's attention that this is for the Treasury: causing a problem. We have only just had our quarterly meetings with all the finance sector people, which is a very, Has your attention been drawn to the increasing very wide and broad sector, and, as I have said, it has not financial burden being placed upon persons employed in been brought to us as a problem. Douglas through increased car parking charges?

The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply. LORD STREET/RIDGEWAY STREET JUNCTION Mr Gelling: Mr President, no, it has not been brought — PELICAN-CROSSING — specifically to the Treasury's attention with a view to QUESTION BY MR KERMODE investigation, presumably because the Treasury is not of course responsible for car parking charges and also does The President: Question 6, hon. members. The hon. not own any car parking. member for Douglas East, Mr Kermode. Personally, however, I am aware of the increased car parking charges, as anyone visiting Douglas will be. Mr Kermode: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Whether it is a financial burden on employees is difficult ask the Minister for Transport: to stipulate but I do appreciate that it is becoming more expensive to park in Douglas. Will your department, as a matter of urgency, provide a pelican crossing at the junction of Lord Street! Mr Corrin: Mr President, I am rather disappointed that Ridgeway Street? the minister denies responsibility but would he agree that he is responsible for overall finance to the departments of The President: The Minister for Transport to reply. government and does he have feelings for those people who, through government policy of siting the finance sector Mr North: Mr President, the provision of a pelican in Douglas, have taken up employment in Douglas and crossing to enable pedestrians to cross over Lord Street now they find that car parking charges are being from the town hall side to the lower section of Ridgeway increased - Street is included in my department's estimates and a schedule of works is to be undertaken during this financial The President: Hon. member, you are making a speech. year. Hopefully this may be undertaken before the end of this calendar year. Mr Corrin: - between 20 and 30 per cent, whereas wages have been 3 to 4 per cent, in fact many people, low- Mr Kermode: I thank the minister for his reply and I paid office workers, have had no pay rises at all? Does he ask him could he do this with all urgency, as there are have some feeling for what is going on and is he prepared many elderly people living in the James Street, King Street to do something about it? and Lord Street area that have to get to public utilities and it is getting a continuous burden to get across this main The President: You may reply to that speech. highway?

Mr Gelling: Mr President, of course I am interested in Mr North: Yes, Mr President, I note the concerns of the economy of the Island and the wellbeing of the people, the hon. member for East Douglas.

Car Parking Charges — Question by Mr Corrin Lord Street/Ridgeway Street Junction — Pelican-Crossing — Question by Mr Kermode TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T739

0 DRIVING TUITION AND TESTING — INQUIRY Mr North: Mr President, certainly there is external — QUESTION BY MR QUINE validation of the examiners at this stage and as far as the training is concerned, certainly as far as I understand it, The President: Question 7, the hon. member for Ayre. that is included in the remit which is the standard and format of the driving test for drivers of motor cars, and Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to certainly if the hon. member for Ayre feels that that is not ask the Minister for Transport: covered in that I will bring that to the attention of the chairman of this inquiry. (1) Do you intend to honour your undertaking to initiate an inquiry into standards of driving tuition and testing on the Island; and ANAGH COAR/COOIL CROSSROADS — ROUNDABOUT — QUESTION BY MR DOWNIE (2) if so, when will this inquiry take place, what will be the remit and who will conduct this inquiry? The President: Question 8, the hon. member for Douglas West, Mr Downie. The President: The Minister for Transport. Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Mr North: Mr President, I have asked Mr Alan Killip ask the Minister for Transport: QPM to undertake an inquiry into the standards of driving tuition and testing on the Isle of Man. A public notice What was the total cost of constructing the new inviting written submissions to be made to Mr Killip will roundabout and traffic management scheme at the Anagh be placed in newspapers later this week and Mr Killip will Coar/Cooil crossroads? 0 then decide on his programme for holding his inquiry. The terms of reference of the inquiry are to consider The President: The Minister for Transport. and report on, firstly, the standard and quality of driving tuition by registered approved driving instructors for Mr North: Mr President, the construction of the new drivers of motor cars, and the standard and format of roundabout and traffic management scheme at the Anagh driving tests for drivers of motor cars in respect of the Isle Coar/Cooil crossroads comprised considerably more of Man and with particular emphasis on the safe driving elements than those visible now the works are virtually of young people. completed. For instance, before any works on the new roundabout and traffic management scheme commenced The President: A supplementary, sir? it was necessary to divert all of the statutory services, including electricity, water, telecom, and in addition a new Mr Quine: I thank the minister for responding to my drainage system was installed incorporating 450 metres question so quickly and may I ask the minister, could he of pipework. All these preparatory works incurred a cost offer us an explanation as to why it has taken over a year of some £65,000. to set up a departmental inquiry into a matter of this nature? The road leading to Kewaigue did not form part of the Secondly, could he advise me if this is to be a one-man original traffic management scheme and the reconstruction investigation team? Is Mr Killip to conduct this inquiry on work incurred an additional cost of £35,000. his own or is he going to have other expert advice to guide The cost of constructing the new roundabout and traffic him or other members of the committee? Could he explain management scheme, as originally contemplated, including to us how it is going to function? roadworks, pavement, construction, new street lighting system, the central island, including landscaping, has cost Mr North: To answer the last part first, Mr President, to date a sum of £164,440. as far as I understand, the inquiry is entirely up to Mr Killip There are still a number of minor works which require and I believe he may be inviting others to join him, but it to be carried out and I am reliably informed that the final is entirely up to Mr Killip to conduct that inquiry and cost should be in the region of £170,000. basically the reason why it has taken so long, and I must apologise to the hon. member for Ayre about this, for the Mr Downie: Mr President, I would just like to ask the last few months, certainly, it was administrative shortages minister, what is his department's policy on roundabouts and prior to that it was actually finding and agreeing with (Laughter) - someone to actually chair this specific inquiry. Mr Delaney: That is a magic question! Mr Quine: With regard to the remit which the minister has outlined to the hon. Court, sir, I would ask him to Mr Downie: - regarding their design, the major address two further issues, firstly, the matter of the training, construction, and could he explain why, in some instances, licensing and regulation of driving test examiners, which we can get away with a painted circle on the highway and he has made no reference to so far, and also the need for yet in other areas we seem to be spending figures in excess external validation of driving test procedures and standards, of £250,000 on a scheme which, as a lay person, I could including a proper complaints procedure. see work perfectly well by a circle painted in the road.

Driving Tuition and Testing — Inquiry — Question by Mr Quine Anagh Coar/Cooil Crossroads — Roundabout — Question by Mr Downie T740 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

Mr Quine: But that is a pothole! Mr North: Mr President, the cost of the landscaping was £15,000 total which includes the wall and all the Mr Kermode: Give us an answer, Zebedee! curbing on the outside, and I am afraid that members may consider that to be in excess, but we had a lot of criticism, The President: Would you care to reply, sir? certainly at the airport, that the roundabout down there had not been finished off properly and that is one of the Mr North: Yes, it is a very good question, Mr President, main entrances coming in to Douglas and I think it deserves and there is a fairly simple answer. In some instances you to look proper and not something that has just been done can put a white spot in the road. That crossroads at the ad hoc. Cooil is probably, after the Quarterbridge, one of the busiest crossroads on the Island and takes a lot of heavy traffic. Mr Gilbey: Hear, hear. The size of the roundabout at the Cooil is, I understand, the minimum size, once you go away from a white spot, Mr Downie: A further supplementary, Mr President. I because you have to allow for articulated lorries and other would like to ask the minister how high on the department's large vehicles taking a roundabout and it is a matter of list of priorities was the construction of this roundabout at safety. Anagh Coar and could the moneys not be better spent on improving the failing highways infrastructure in Douglas Mr Delaney: Mr President, in relation to this question or dealing with some of the capital's major car parking is the minister aware at 9.40 this morning I received a phone problems? call from his chief officer, Mr Hannay, to inform me that on the minister's instruction he had been asked to phone Mr North: Mr President, as I understand it, the Cooil me to tell me that the reason this roundabout was designed roundabout I think has been on the department's list for in such a way was on the direction of the Planning something like five years, six years for doing, so it has Committee? Is he further aware, and I have witnesses to worked its way up the list, and the hon. member may recall this, that on enquiry to the Planning, I am informed no that another job has just been finished on Tromode Road such thing is the truth and that this was purely an in-house in his constituency which cost £140,000 and that was done design, and, a further supplementary, as he has talked about for safety reasons. safety for articulated vehicles, why has he built a ramp on the roundabout so that the articulated vehicle that overshoots the roundabout will take off, virtually, rather UNOFFICIAL FOOTPATHS — REFUSAL OF than be slowed down? ACCESS — QUESTION BY MR CORRIN

Mr Groves: They are going round in circles, Dominic! The President: Question 9, the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Corrin. Mr North: Mr President, can I first of all clarify the point about planning. The wall on the roundabout was not Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister a condition of planning, absolutely not, and in fact where for Transport: that telephone conversation came from was that the roundabout did go through planning but it was not a (1) Is it a fact that certain landowners are refusing to planning condition and I was told, I think it was about a allow ramblers to walk over unofficial footpaths and month ago, that it was a planning condition and I spoke to lanes, notwithstanding that the same have been the hon. member for Council, Mr Delaney, and mentioned freely accessed for many years; and that to him, and in fact I went back to my officer who said, no, it was not a condition and that is why he was supposed (2) will you consider recommending to government that to have rung the hon. member for the Council some two access to the countryside should be re-examined? weeks ago to advise him that it was not a planning condition, so how on earth he got it exactly the opposite I The President: The Minister for Transport to reply. do not know. Mr North: Mr President, within the past few months Mr Groves: He was going the other way round! my department has not received any complaints from members of the public concerning landowners refusing Mrs Christian: A supplementary question, Mr access. My department is responsible only for the President. Whilst it may be accepted that there is a established rights of way and would take action following considerable need for extensive roadworks, would the hon. any complaint in respect of an established right of way. minister indicate what the additional cost of the landscaping Use of unofficial paths is at the discretion of the relevant was, as that seems to most passers-by to be excessive, and landowner. If the landowner objects, then the user commits other departments could well use the sort of resources that a trespass. have been spent on that element of it? There is a procedure to establish a public footpath and if the hon. member Mr Corrin believes any unofficial Messrs Delaney and Cannan: Hear, hear. footpath should become a public footpath, then my

Unofficial Footpaths — Refusal of Access — Question by Mr Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T741

department would be happy to consider any evidence that people and it may be that disabled people who have not he produces. I have to say at this stage that my department completed the six-month qualifying period will be provided is just concluding, hopefully, a new right of way, an official with a home care or community nursing service or perhaps public path, at Niarbyl along the coast. residential care would be appropriate. In any event, if they To answer the second part of the question, my have retired and financial resources are insufficient to meet department is only responsible for established rights of their needs they will be entitled to supplementary benefit. • way. The issue of wider public access to the countryside Social security benefits for disabled people have been would need to be considered by a number of government substantially improved in the duration of the present departments and bodies. administration and indeed the total social security budget for sick and disabled people this year is in excess of £13 The President: A supplementary, sir. million compared with just under £4 million some 10 years ago. This means that in real terms we are spending more Mr Con-in: Mr President, I thank the hon. minister for than twice as much for the sick and the disabled than at his very helpful reply. Could I ask him if he is satisfied that particular time. that the footpaths officer refers letters from the public to To accede to the hon. member's request would represent him to keep him advised on this subject? And could I also a substantial calling on our financial resources and, at a ask him if he would check that the footpaths officer is replying to constituents who write to him on this subject? time when other department services within the health and social services need further funding, I regret that I cannot Mr North: Mr President, I will check that. I am unaware afford his wishes any priority. of any breakdown there but I will certainly check on that matter. The President: A supplementary, sir.

Mr Cannan: Will the minister agree that in payment ATTENDANCE ALLOWANCE — of attendance allowance there is this anomaly that whereas DISCRETIONARY MANX SUPPLEMENT — you have to wait six months before attendance allowance QUESTION BY MR CANNAN is paid, an elderly person can have today a stroke or heart attack and require constant attendance allowance thereafter The President: Question 10, the hon. member for but have to wait the six months during which they may Michael. either get better or die, but the point is that they need it thereafter from when it has occurred. Now, will the minister Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Minister for Health agree there cannot be very many cases, so many cases, of and Social Security: people who it is deemed necessary by the medical profession that they are in need of attendance allowance Will you introduce, at the earliest opportunity, a immediately they have suffered some major illness and discretionary Manx supplement in respect of attendance how is it that it cannot be possible to pay what is a relatively allowance to enable the benefit to be paid immediately to small amount to assist these people? Island residents when deemed necessary? Mr May: Mr President, indeed I would concur with The President: The Minister for Health and Social the hon. member that what he says is correct, that people Security to reply. can indeed suffer a stroke or heart attack and have to wait for some six months before attendance allowance can be Mr May: Mr President, attendance allowance is a flat- claimed. However, as I did make plain in my original rate social security benefit payable at two rates, a higher response, other benefits and other assistances are available and lower. It is a non-contributory benefit paid to people during that particular period and there is no question if who become disabled after the age of 65 to such an extent anyone is entitled to those benefits that they would and that they need frequent attention in connection with their will be made available. bodily functions or continual supervision to avoid substantial danger to themselves or others. Mr Groves: Mr President, is the minister aware that If a person is diagnosed terminally ill the benefit is some applicants for attendance allowance living in the payable immediately. In all other cases the benefit is not payable until the person has been disabled for a period of north of the Island do experience some considerable delays six months. This qualifying period has been a feature of on occasions in having the doctor's investigation of attendance allowance since it was first introduced in 1971. themselves carried out in terms of a doctor's certificate, The purpose of the six-month waiting period is to ensure and is this something which he could look into? I believe that the benefit is only payable to people whose disability there are difficulties with regard to the Ramsey group is of a long-term nature and there are no plans to amend practice in carrying out these examinations. Thank you. this principle. Payment of attendance allowance, of course, is not the Mr May: Mr President, yes, this matter has been drawn only service provided by my department for disabled to my attention and it is a matter that I intend to look into.

Attendance Allowances — Discretionary Manx Supplement — Question by Mr Cannan T742 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

BUILDING EVACUATION —ASSISTANCE procedures that are laid down in order that some cohesion PROVISIONS — QUESTION BY MR KERMODE between government departments can be achieved in helping these poor unfortunate people? The President: Question 11, the hon. member for Douglas East, Mr Kermode. Mr May: Mr President, I have no doubt that there is plenty of cohesion between the two departments and I have Mr Kermode: I beg leave to ask the Minister for Health no doubt whatsoever that there is co-operation completely. and Social Security:

What provisions are there for assistance for people POWERED WHEELCHAIRS — who have been evacuated from a building in the early hours QUESTION BY MR CORRIN of the morning as a result of an emergency? The President: Question 12, the hon. member for The President: The Minister for Health and Social Rushen, Mr Corrin. Security to reply. Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister Mr May: Mr President, my department has a duty to for Health and Social Security: provide residential accommodation for persons who, by reason of age or infirmity, are in need of care and attention which is not otherwise available to them and to provide Does your department offer powered wheelchairs temporary accommodation for persons in need in to severely disabled persons for indoor and/or outside use? unforeseen circumstances and this is to comply with section 22, part III, of the National Assistance Act of 1951. The President: The Minister for Health and Social In carrying out this duty my department has a duty to Security to reply. have regard to the welfare of all persons for whom we provide accommodation. My social services division Mr May: Mr President, I am happy to confirm that my operates an emergency duty system whereby a social department, through Noble's Hospital appliance clinic, worker can be contacted at any time in matters of does offer powered wheelchairs to severely disabled emergency. The duty social worker will assess each persons who are clinically assessed as being likely to situation referred to them and arrange for any necessary benefit from this provision. However, and as I am sure the advice and assistance. hon. member is aware, the high cost of powered wheelchairs means that such a provision is only possible Mr Kermode: A supplementary, Mr President. through the donation of charitable funds, national health support both on the Island and elsewhere being confined The President: A supplementary, sir. until recently to the provision of manual wheelchairs. I am aware that the United Kingdom has introduced a Mr Kermode: I thank the minister for his reply but is limited scheme to fund the provision of powered he aware of an incident which happened on 24th October wheelchairs under the National Health Service on a in a property in my constituency where a fire had occurred selective basis to disabled persons. This does not mean and the fire service statement said that no public service that this scheme provides an automatic entitlement, as appeared to have the resources or will to accommodate patients do have to meet a predetermined set of criteria. the people involved and the only body that offered them This extension to the current National Health Service assistance and temporary accommodation was the provision is being reviewed locally. Salvation Army? In conclusion I would wish to confirm that whilst at present no person who is considered by professional staff Mr May: Mr President, I am not aware of the specific involved to require a powered wheelchair is denied such incident to which the hon. member refers but what I can an opportunity, it is my department's intention to review say to the hon. member is that a duty social worker is available 24 hours a day. The duty service social worker its stance in this area with the intention of developing a can be contacted through the police and if necessary would more flexible approach in the interest of improved patient arrange for alternative accommodation - albeit of an need. emergency nature, such as accommodating people within the lounge of one of our old people's homes and seeing The President: A supplementary, sir. that they are fed and given nourishment - to be made available to them in the short term whilst looking into their Mr Corrin: Mr President, I welcome the reply from problem. the minister. Could I ask him if he is aware that in the United Kingdom an electric wheelchair for indoor and Mr Kermode: Accepting that this facility is now outdoor use may be provided or a voucher scheme to assist available, can I ask the minister if he could ask one of his purchasing one from the private sector? Will he also give officers indeed to contact the Department of Home Affairs those methods of provision consideration in his in order that the officers are well conversant with the department?

Building Evacuation — Assistance Provisions — Question by Mr Kermode Powered Wheelchairs — Question by Mr Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T743

Mr May: Mr President, as I said, we are aware of the O developments in the UK and indeed are watching them, The President: A supplementary, sir. but as far as the voucher scheme is concerned, details of how it will operate have still to be worked out and Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. Could I first of Parliament actually needs to approve a change to the law all thank the minister for his response and ask him when after discussions with professional staff in the wheelchair the Chief Constable recommends that the optimum number service and voluntary sector organisations but this matter of officers would be 12 and given that there is an increasing is under observation and is being reviewed locally. problem in relation to the drugs situation on the Island, would he not be prepared to give more serious Mr Waft: Mr President, would the hon. minister oblige consideration to this particular matter? us by the investigation of the DHSS, the report into the discrimination against the disabled? Will that report be Mr Corkill: Certainly from time to time, in discussions made available to the public? with the Chief Constable, the department does discuss manning levels in different parts of the force but at the end Mr May: Yes, sir, it has been made quite plain that that of the day it is an operational matter for the Chief Constable report will be concluded in the very near future and will to decide where he deploys his constables. be presented to this hon. Court. But I take seriously the comments that the member for South Douglas makes with regard to the situation with illegal drugs on the Island, it is a matter of concern for all, DRUG SQUAD — STAFFING — including my department, and I will relay that message to QUESTION BY MR CRETNEY the Chief Constable with regard to the drug squad. But having said that, it must be borne in mind that he has a O responsibility in many areas of policing, all areas of The President: Question 13, the hon. member for policing, and therefore he has to use the resources that he Douglas South, Mr Cretney. has available to him in the most effective manner.

Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Mr Delaney: Bearing in mind, Mr President, the ask the Minister for Home Affairs: concern of the minister, the members of this Court and obviously 99 per cent of the general public on this matter, How many - will the minister consider looking for financial support from the members of Tynwald through the Treasury for (a) officers; and increasing the establishment to one inspector, one sergeant and six constables for the near future? (b) dogs Mr Corkill: Mr President, the aspect of manpower is have been employed by the drug squad in 1986, 1991 well known to all members of this Court. There has been a and 1996 and what is the optimum number? policy of government employees, a capping in effect, and therefore I cannot make an undertaking to go down that The President: The Minister for Home Affairs to reply. line here today. What I will do is talk with the Chief Constable on this subject. We do on a regular basis anyway. Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. The police drug It would have financial implications for me to affirm what squad was formed in 1986. The initial establishment of the hon. member Mr Delaney is requesting. the squad was one sergeant and one constable. By 1991 But certainly what has to be borne in mind is that the the establishment had risen to one sergeant and three drug squad is not an entity in itself and all police officers constables and the current establishment is one sergeant are involved in drug detection work and, as is seen in the and seven constables. Chief Constable's report of last year, the amount of seizures The drug squad does not have its own dogs but there of drugs by uniformed officers has been increasing as well. are dogs in the main dogs section which are available for drug work. These dogs are handled by qualified uniformed Mr Cretney: Mr President, the minister referred to the government manpower restrictions. Would he not agree dog handlers. In 1986 there was one dog available for drugs with me that it is a false economy (Mr Delaney: Hear, work. In 1991 there were three and currently there are two. hear.) to have government manpower restrictions in this A further dog is to be trained during the current financial area because the consequences of not seeking to minimise year, bringing the total back to three. the effect of drugs could result in a requirement for As far as optimum numbers are concerned, the Chief increased financial resources to be applied in the future, Constable has advised me that the optimum strength of and secondly, could I ask the minister is the department in the drug squad could be 12. The number currently deployed a position to apply the resources which are obtained from is, however, the maximum possible, given the overall illegal drugs via the courts to this particular problem? establishment of the force and the other demands on police resources. In relation to dogs, three is considered to be the Mr Corkill: Just with regard to the last point first, Mr optimum number. President, there is the seized assets fund which has very

Drug Squad — Staffing — Question by Mr Cretney T744 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 little or no money in it at the moment. With regard to the Mr Corkill: Certainly with a public answer like this, use of that seized assets fund, I believe it can be used for Mr President, I would not wish to give too much away certain one-off initiatives in the war against drugs but it is with regard to operational matters because secrecy in the not to be used for revenue implications. Therefore extra way that the operations are carried out is an important manpower is not going to come from that fund if that is factor. I can report that the working relationship with what the hon. member is perhaps thinking. customs and excise is very much improved on perhaps The question of manpower - there are great demands what it was some years ago and that the joint working from all government departments on manpower and my relationship, as has been seen in other countries, is department is no different in that respect. We do have a producing results, and I welcome that in terms of the situation whereby the policy is to civilianise certain areas sharing of equipment and other detection methods. within the police force to allow police officers to police With regard to the point the hon. member makes about and not to do administrative duties and we also have a unknown officers coming in from the UK, there are two situation where court escort duties are to be undertaken by schools of thought on that issue because very often I am prison staff instead of police officers in the near future, aware that people who are involved in the business of thereby releasing more police officers onto the street. illegal drugs, who may well be dealing, in fact work in a sort of closed community situation whereby a strange face Dr Mann: Mr President, would the minister not agree is very often the message to close the operation down, that in practical terms having six constables results in no whereas a face which is a bit more familiar encourages more than two or three at any one time on the streets and them to be more open, although they may not know that that represents a fairly small impact on the general that face is a police officer, but that is getting into the realms problem? of operations which I do not wish to do today.

Mr Corkill: I am sure the hon. member is well aware Mr Crowe: Mr President, would the minister advise us that there is this calculation that to have a member of any as to whether special constables are used to help the drug staff available for 24 hours cover, as it were, you need I squad and are they providing an effective and sufficient think it is 5.2 persons to achieve that by the time you have service to the regular police? Thank you. taken into account days off, holidays, sickness, training and all the rest of it. Therefore I accept what the hon. Mr Corkill: The special constabulary is a volunteer member says but must bear in mind that the drug squad is service which supports the police force in general and they not an island, that other police officers do detect drugs are asked to do certain back-up duties and of course also also. they do patrol and in association with regular colleagues are a most useful contribution to the policing of the Island. Mr Gilbey: Hear, hear. The President: Now, the final supplementary on this Mr Rodan: Mr President, would the minister give question, the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Kniveton. consideration to increasing the number of sniffer dogs dedicated to the drug squad itself and would he not agree Mr Kniveton: Thank you, sir. I would like to ask a that the routine presence of sniffer dogs on board the ferries supplementary question of the minister. Could he advise and at the airport perhaps on a random basis would us of the annual cost of having an extra dog and handler demonstrate very clearly to the travelling public and give particularly for the drug squad? a very strong signal to the people of the Isle of Man and visitors about the Island's strong attitude to drugs? Mr Corkill: I cannot advise exactly what the cost is, Mr President, but last year we purchased a dog at a cost of Mr Corkill: I think it is well clear that the Island's £250 which is just the tip of the iceberg because initial stance on drugs is a tough one and the Chief Constable training then costs £3,500, annual refresher training courses advises me that ideally he would like to see the drug dogs are £1,000, the ongoing costs of keeping a dog - there is based in the drug squad and handled by drug squad officers. the dog handler's allowance which is about £1,000 per The present establishment does not permit that but is a annum, then other aspects such as the provision of kennels, matter for future discussion and certainly if that is what food, veterinary bills and also a vehicle for transportation the Chief Constable feels is the most appropriate way to of dog and handler all have to be added on. I am not sure run the drug squad, then my department will help him what the total of that is. There is then of course the towards those ends. possibility, as has happened with a dog in the not-too-recent past, that that dog has then proven not to be successful at Mr Downie: Mr President, I would just like to ask the its job, so it is a bit of a risky business at times. minister, do any joint exercises take place now between our own local police force and the officers of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise and other agencies and does the POLICE OFFICERS — department think it would be worth considering bringing QUESTION BY MR CRETNEY officers in from another jurisdiction to crack particularly difficult problems relating to drugs when our own drugs The President: Question 14, the hon. member for officers are so well known within the Manx community? Douglas South, Mr Cretney:

Police Officers — Question by Mr Cretney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T745

Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Mr Corkin: Subsequent to the radio programme, Mr 0 ask the Minister for Home Affairs: President, I met with the Chief Constable and we discussed the comments that he made on that day. There is no doubt (1) How many police officers have been employed by that the Chief Constable and many of his officers do feel the Isle of Man police force in 1986,1991 and 1996; that there is a need for more police officers and an increase in the establishment. This is an ongoing debate. (2) how many posts have been civilianised since 1986; There is also the other argument - and the statistics which and have been put forward by my previous answer - that is that there has been a 21.7 per cent increase over the last 10 (3) what would be the optimum number of officers to years - that perhaps the Chief Constable should deploy his provide a full Island-wide community policing officers differently. This is an ongoing, day-to-day debate. service? Having said that, the policy of the department is to civilianise and to release police officers for further duties The President: The Minister for Home Affairs to reply. and wherever possible to maximise the resource that is available to the Chief Constable. Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. At the beginning of 1986 the authorised establishment of the Isle of Man Mr Waft: Mr President, is the hon. minister able to tell constabulary stood at 175 officers. This was increased to us how many officers are now off on long-term sickness 179 in June of that year. In 1991 the establishment was and following the Chief Constable's annual report and the 209 and the current figure is 213. It can be seen from these duty of care we require for those officers, for back-up for figures that the establishment has been increased by 38 those officers during the night, with late-night licensing officers which is 21.7 per cent over the last 10 years. hours, is the department addressing that situation? In answer to part (2), since 1986 five posts formerly filled by police officers have been civilianised. In addition Mr Corkill: I was informed last week that the number six new civilian posts have been created which, whilst not of officers not available for duty because they are long- replacing specific police posts, have relieved police officers term sick is 19, I believe. This is an area of concern to the from work that does not need to be performed by police department as to the reasons why that is the figure and officers and enabled them to spend more time on investigation leads one to see that some of it is due to operational duties. The department has recently, on the operational injuries received on duty and some of it is due recommendation of the Police Authority, agreed that five to illness, there is a mixture of reasons, but the number, I further posts should be civilianised and this is currently believe, is 19. being pursued with the personnel office. With regard to part (3) of the question, community Mr Gilbey: Would not the hon. minister not agree that policing is a mode of policing rather than a specific division if you actually allow for the number of civilian posts created or section of the force and without reviewing the number since 1986 the effective increase in police manpower of officers deployed in each division and section who are through the relief that that has given to the police is about engaged in community policing it is not possible to give a 28 per cent, and would he also agree that there is a great meaningful optimum figure. deal of scope for further civilianisation and that most forces The situation with regard to community policing is the across the water have a far larger number of civilians in same as I outlined in an answer to the previous question in relation to their uniformed officers than we do? relation to the drug squad, in that the number of officers currently deployed is the maximum possible given the Mr Corkill: I cannot check on the hon. member's overall establishment of the force and the other demands calculations but certainly civilianisation is a way of on police resources. To increase the number engaged in increasing policing manpower for policing duty. There are community policing would mean a depletion of resources a number of posts that have been further identified as a possibility for civilianisation and these are under discussion in other areas and this is not an option. If, however, the at the moment. I do not wish to actually mention which overall establishment of the force were to be increased, areas at the moment because some of the police officers community policing would be one of the areas in which involved may not be aware themselves and it would be we would be looking to increase those resources. wrong for me to announce publicly here who they are, but there is some scope for move civilianisation. But of course The President: A supplementary, sir? there will have to be a line drawn under what is possible. With regard to comparisons with the UK, it is true that Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the a great deal of civilians are employed there, but we have minister is he aware that in a recent radio broadcast the to bear in mind that the Isle of Man force is slightly different Chief Constable expressed his support for the concept of in some ways from the United Kingdom in that we have an Island-wide community policing service and indicated less back-up resources from neighbouring forces and that callers to the programme should contact prospective therefore we do have to bear that in mind when allocating candidates this year if they thought it was right that there manpower and resources. should be additional officers to the police? Does he consider this is good advice? The President: A supplementary, sir?

1 Police Officers — Question by Mr Cretney T746 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the in July 1994 when it approved the Sea Fisheries (Whelk minister if he would agree with me that a figure of almost Licensing, Etc) Bye-laws. 10 per cent of the police force on long-term illness is a In 1988-89 Port Erin Marine Biological Station carried subject for some concern and is he considering any out research into the viability of a whelk fishery in Manx initiatives in that area? waters. The report was submitted on the 8th May 1990 and the report noted that it would appear that there are Mr Corkin: It is very hard to say what initiatives there enough whelks in Manx waters to support a small fishery. can be. It is a matter of making it clear to the Chief The low fecundity, seasonal aggressive behaviour, entirely Constable, as we do, that we find that figure unacceptable. benthic reproductive strategy, ease of capture and fast early But having said that, there would appear to be, in many of growth make Buccinum a prime candidate for overfishing, the cases, good reasons for that number at the moment. thus the fishery might only have a short-term life if effort But certainly when you are operating with a fixed is increased rapidly. In a supplement in 1993 a Port Erin manpower and set resources, then the manager of those scientist observed that it appears that the stock could, in resources obviously has to be concerned with that number the first instance, sustain approximately 127 tonnes per that are missing. It is a concern that I will continue to raise annum as a catch. It was therefore considered that effort with the Chief Constable. should be capped from the outset in order to protect the long-term prospects of the fishery. The department drafted the byelaws, again which were accepted, that there should be a maximum of six licences and the maximum number WHELK FISHING — LICENCES of pots which may be used shall be 600. — QUESTION BY MR DOWNIE Now, the member has suggested that the number of licences granted should be increased and the number of The President: Question 15, the hon. member for pots reduced. I can tell him that a fisherman contacted me Douglas West. last evening to tell me that when he first started he was using 200 pots and now he was using 580 and his catch Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to was much about the same. He is documenting for the ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: marine biological station all his logs so that the marine biological station will have that information and he was How many current licences have been issued by your most concerned that a change in the pattern would just department for the capture of whelks by fishing vessels dilute the fisheries and it would not give people a living. operating within the Manx three-mile fishing limit? He states that he would have to lay off workers if that was the case. So I think the advice that the department had in The President: The Minister of Agriculture, Forestry 1989-90 has been proved. Thank you, Eaghtyrane. and Fisheries to reply. Mr Delaney: The scientific evidence, Mr President, was Mrs Hannan: Under the terms of the Sea Fisheries based on tonnage. Would the minister be kind enough to (Whelk Licensing, Etc) Bye-laws of 1994, SD279/94, tell us what is the tonnage being caught in the last three approved by Tynwald on the 12th July 1994, the department years and would she further, in a separate supplementary, can issue a maximum of six licences. There are currently indicate why it is that traditional Manx fishermen are now six licences which have been issued. Thank you, stopped from exporting and catching and sharing in the Eaghtyrane. wealth of the increased cost that the consumer in Japan, southern Korea and the Far East is prepared to pay for this fish where all it is doing is putting all the wealth into six The President: A supplementary, sir? people's pockets rather than sharing amongst at least 12 fishing families of the Isle of Man? Mr Downie: Yes, a supplementary, Mr President. Does the minister feel that it is fair and proper that there should Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, fishing used to be an be a limited participation or private fishery currently in industry open to anyone who wished to do it, to go to sea. operation regarding whelks, and as she has indicated that Over the years more and more licensing has been there are six licences who I understand have the rights to introduced. You can no longer simply go out and fish put out 600 pots per licence, would it not be more fair to commercially for anything unless you have all the give 12 fishermen the opportunity for fishing for these necessary licences, and because the whelk fishery has been whelks but limit the amount of pots that they can put out such a recent innovation, the opportunity has been taken to 300 pots per boat, and would she not agree that this to licence it from the very start. would allow the fishermen much more flexibility and at There are a number of fishermen who would like to see the same time it would not be in breach of any of the similar restrictions imposed on stocks such as scallops and conservation policies which I understand the department queenies so that there is a future for the industry. The has? queenie fishing, for example, started in 1969. The number of vessels shot up, taking the option of fishing for queenies. Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, what I feel is totally outwith There were 80 larger vessels registered at that time and the scientific advice that the department has received and over the years the number has dropped to about 40, amid that the department is acting on and that Tynwald accepted the concern of the amount of queenies out there.

Whelk Fishing — Licences — Question by Mr Downie TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T747

With regard to the tonnage that the member requested FATSTOCK — PRICE SUPPORT over the last three years, I do not have that. I do have — QUESTION BY MR CORRIN tonnage for last year and the tonnage last year was 148 tonnes which had been taken. The President: So let us move on, hon. members, I am The licences were advertised initially by public notice. sorry, to Question 16, and I call upon the hon. member for There were seven applicants. The department took into Rushen, Mr Corrin. account the applicants' vessels and fishing patterns to issue the six available licences. On the basis of low catch returns, Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister the department later withdrew the licences where fishing for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: effort had not been put in or sustained. Further public notice drew another half-dozen applications and the licences were (1) In respect of steers, heifers and young bulls in week reissued again, taking into account the applicants' vessels, 5 1996, what was the cost to your department of fishing patterns and also the area where they were guaranteeing the Fatstock Marketing Association proposing to fish for whelks. Thank you, Eaghtyrane. 1995 week 51 price support; and

The President: Mr Downie. (2) in respect of one kilo of steer meat grade 0+ -

Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. Is the minister (a) what was the price paid to the producer by the aware of some of the dire financial situations that many of Fatstock Marketing Association; and the smaller fishermen are in in the Isle of Man, particularly of Douglas? Is she also aware that the price for scallops or (b) what was the market price obtained for the same queenies this year will be somewhere in the region of £1.20 by the Fatstock Marketing Association? which is on a par with what the price was 10 or 12 years ago, and is she also aware that one local seafood processor The President: The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries is her own constituency has recently ceased operating and and Forestry. if the local fishing fleet cannot provide an adequate supply of shellfish to keep the local factories open we are likely Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, members will remember that to lose more Manx fishing vessels and our share of the at the April sitting this hon. Court approved the scallop and whelk market? department's proposal to guarantee beef producers a price for their fatstock under 13 months of age and entering the The President: That, hon. members, I would regard as meat plant based on week 51 of the 1995-96 fatstock year. far away from the question that appears on the agenda This week, which commenced on 18th March 1996, was paper. I would appeal to hon. members to concentrate their the latest normal week before the BSE crisis and the questions on the agenda item 15. The hon. member. collapse of the market in beef. This means in financial terms 92 per cent of the amount which the Fatstock Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, if I could just make it quite Marketing Association paid producers in that week based clear that there are many reasons for the prices of fish, on income from sales of meat less operating costs. there are many reasons for processors not continuing to There are two elements in this equation. The first is the operate. Some of these are the new food hygiene straight difference between purchase price and sale returns. regulations which have been brought in to protect the In week 5 this was 15.29 pence per kilo equivalent to public. But it does take investment and if there are not £8,988. The second was the cost of processing. The people out there to invest, then this investment will not department is still in negotiation with the FMA to take place. In many processing establishments this determine what is a fair allowance for overhead costs. investment has taken place and I just want to reassure It is legitimate that these costs be recognised, for they members that it is not quite as simple as the member is impinge on the amount which the producer would normally pointing out, but I was aware of all those facts, of course. have received. It is also legitimate for the department to be certain that the FMA is operating as efficiently as Mr Kniveton: Mr President, I would like to ask the possible and minimising these costs. Such sum has yet to hon. minister a supplementary question. Do the fishing be determined and therefore I cannot answer the question vessel owners have an association and, if so, does she ever as put. However, the average total cost per week, as detailed meet the owners and discuss their problems which are in the claims presented to the department by the Fatstock many, but mainly about earning their living, considering Marketing Association to date, is £27,094. the large investments they have in their boats? As regards part (2)(a) of the question, the purchase cost of an 0+ steer for week 5 in the weight range 255.5 to 308 The President: Hon. members, I am not going to allow kilos under the 92 per cent guaranteed price arrangement the question. I am sorry, but we have a situation where we was 189.1 pence per kilo. The sale price of a side of beef are dealing with licences in respect of whelks and we are in week 5 was 190.5 pence per kilo. I must remind members going fishing in far deeper waters now. that the sale price of meat depends whether it was sold as a side or split into four quarters, hinds or whether boxed, Members: Hear, hear. frozen, exported or sold locally. Thank you, Eaghtyrane.

Fatstock — Price Support — Question by Mr Corrin T748 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

Mr Corrin: I would just like to thank the minister for the presence of a close relationship, supporting that technical information. Thank you. experimental evidence and a credible biological explanation. These factors are not satisfied for a link Members: Hear, hear. between the electromagnetic fields and cancer, and the NRPB does not recommend the adoption of quantitive Mr Kermode: Which you did not understand. restrictions on human exposure to electromagnetic fields. The Manx Electricity Authority accepts and abides by the advice of the NRPB and all of its activities are carried out in accordance with its guidance. As in all matters ELECTRICITY TRANSMISSION LINES relating to safety and health, the authority seeks to rely on — HEALTH HAZARD — best advice and adopts best practice. QUESTION BY MR CORM The President: A supplementary, sir? The President: Hon. members, question 17. I call upon the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Corrin. Mr Corrin: Notwithstanding the NRPB view, nevertheless would the minister agree that there is concern Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister on this subject, both in the international press and certainly for Industry: here on the Island, and notwithstanding that formal position would he be prepared to recommend to the MEA that they (1) Has your attention been drawn to reports that should look at perhaps what one would call the worst sites persons living near to, or under, electricity on the Island and could I ask him to have a look at transmission lines are possibly being exposed to a Ballastruan in Colby where 11,000 volts lines are so low severe health hazard; and going over Ballastruan estate that you can look out through a dormer window of a bungalow and there they are at that (2) has the Manx ElectricityAuthority investigated the same height? Now, can the minister and will he understand potential threat to the general public on this Island the concern of families living in that situation and bearing arising from its transmission system? in mind this national debate that is going on would he not agree that the MEA should consider either undergrounding, The President: The Minister for Industry to reply. or whatever is the technical solution to this, in the meantime to satisfy and alleviate some of the pressure upon families? Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. In response to Mr Lowey: Can I say genuinely I do readily understand the first part of the question I can inform the hon. member the concern. As I said in my question, although the board, for Rushen that I am aware of a number of programmes the radiological board, reported that its considered view on radio and television and articles in the press which have was that there was no link, they introduced a caveat that discussed the possible effects of electromagnetic fields, there was enough evidence for them to pursue further EMF, and electric fields generally on members of the enquiries. That gives me concern and I know it gives public. I understand that these programmes and articles concern to the MEA as well. I know Ballastruan quite well have referred to research papers which have been published and I do know that the power lines were the result of a in recent years. fatality on an accident on the building of Ballastruan, so I In response to the second part of the question, I am aware know it reasonably well, and I will definitely give an that the Manx Electricity Authority is advised on the issue undertaking to the hon. member that I will raise the matter of electromagnetic fields by the National Radiological and his concerns with the board and meet with certain of Protection Board, as is the whole of the electricity supply the people at least to give them the facts. industry in the United Kingdom. The NRPB, which was I would like to say, however, that the MEA, as I said in created by Act of Parliament, has responsibility for my reply, do adopt the best possible professional advice providing advice on, amongst other things, health matters available, on it and try very hard to put that into practice. related to the exposure of people to electromagnetic fields It is a very complex field. It is not a simple answer. We and radiation and this would include advice on appropriate all are subject to these emissions from electrical appliances. restrictions on exposure if considered necessary. It is very complex. It is not a simple answer. But I can The NRPB's most recent assessment of the position in genuinely understand anybody living in the vicinity of high relation to electromagnetic fields was summarised in a voltage, having seen that programme, why there should statement to the House of Lords on 23rd March 1995 and be a doubt, and I too will try to alleviate that. I quote: 'The National Radiological Protection Board's But the MEA have 11 volumes on this particular subject current advice is that it has considered all the available which is being added to all the time and it is to the forefront information and has concluded that the evidence does not of their thinking that they want to adopt the best practice establish that exposure to electromagnetic fields is a cause and I will give an undertaking to the hon. member to meet of cancer, although it does provide some evidence to with the people concerned at their site and develop it from suggest the possibility exists, which justifies moving there with the MEA. forward with more research.' The significance of an epidemiological study depends, Mrs Christian: A supplementary question, Mr amongst other things, on the strength of the association, President. Would the Minister for Industry confirm that in

Electricity Transmission Lines — Health Hazard — Question by Mr Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T749

some countries in fact EMF treatments are used as a health since the early years of this century. Until relatively O treatment rather than being regarded as posing a threat, recently it was considered that the effects in water supply for example in Japan, and therefore that it is clear that the terms were entirely beneficial and the advantages claimed scientific evidence on both sides is neither positive for or from planting conifers included the attenuation of run-off against the effects of EMF in relation to health. Would he and consequent reduction in erosion of the stream courses also indicate that whilst the MEA is taking the appropriate and silting of the reservoirs and the enhancement of advice, people perhaps should not be overly concerned reservoir yield through reduction of evaporation losses about the effects of EMF. There have been no cases proven from the catchments. With these perceived advantages in yet to be detrimental to health. mind Douglas Corporation Water Department actively pursued a programme of conifer planting in the West Mr Lowey: I would endorse what the hon. member Baldwin catchment area right up to the 1960s. has said and again, as I said earlier in my reply, it is a very More recently scientific studies undertaken in the United complex subject. For example, in talking with the MEA Kingdom and elsewhere have shown that the general effects on this matter I can give you an example in Italy where of planting conifers are largely adverse in water supply they have a standard for EM fields which they are not terms. In particular, planting will reduce run-off to some enforcing and in Belgium there is already a standard laid extent over the long term due to increased evapo- down, and Austria and Germany are considering transpiration losses from the maturing trees; a phrase that introducing one. But there are from, not just the high I often use in everyday language, Mr President. These may voltage, but low voltage the same and naturally occurring, cause increased erosion and consequently increased silting so it is a complex matter, it is a bit like radon gas. of reservoirs if inappropriate planting practices are adopted But I can quite understand people's concerns, genuine and may in some circumstances cause increased concerns, but I do endorse what the hon. member has said. acidification of run-off and accompanying increases in There have been no known cases that can be actually put metal ion concentrations. on. There is a court case, obviously, before the English The extent to which acidification will occur in any courts, which I will not comment on. particular catchment as a direct result of conifer planting depends on many factors including not only the proportion Mr Downie: Mr President, could the minister confirm of the catchment which is planted but also the soil type, that, where possible and subject to finance, it is still the bedrock geology, and chemistry of the incident rainfall. MEA's declared policy to underground all cables, and is The run-off water supply data available to the Water the minister also aware that around the electricity network Authority does not cover a sufficiently long time span to in the Isle of Man, the 11,000 kv and the 33,000 volt enable direct and meaningful comparisons to be made network there is indeed in existence an 11-metre exclusion between run-off water chemistry before and after zone which sits either side of the cables and that effectively establishment of the plantations which now exist in many prohibits any development in the vicinity of those cables? of the Islands catchment areas. However, the run-off water quality data collected over recent years from those The President: I honestly feel that supplementary to catchments with established plantation areas and from be away from the question to a degree that is unacceptable those catchments where no planting has taken place does to me. not tend to support the idea that the affects have been significantly detrimental to water quality. Both the Water Authority and the Forestry Division of RESERVOIRS AND RIVERS — CONIFEROUS the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry have TREES — QUESTION BY MR DOWNIE recognised the potential adverse effects of planting both conifers and deciduous trees within the water supply The President: We move on to question 18. I call upon catchments. There is regular consultation between the the hon. member for Douglas West, Mr Downie. Water Authority and the Forestry Division in relation to any new planting proposals and an agreed code of good Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to practice has been adopted in relation to any new planting ask the Chairman of the Water Authority: works.

What effects has the planting of coniferous trees had Mr Downie: A supplementary, Mr President. Could the on the quality of water contained in the Island's reservoirs minister confirm that an area round Foxdale known as and rivers? Struan Barrule which is heavily planted with conifers is now no longer available to the Water Authority as a The President: The Chairman of the Water Authority catchment area because of the acidity in the water of that or a spokesman for the Water Authority to reply. area, and what plans does his Water Authority have to address the problems relating to low pH and acid levels in Mr Lowey: With your permission, sir, coniferous trees. the water and can he confirm that many millions of gallons Thank you, Mr President, I thank the hon. member for the of water are annually having to be run off from the question. The planting of coniferous trees within the reservoirs as waste to try and reduce the acid content of Island's water supply catchment areas has been going on the water?

Reservoirs and Rivers — Coniferous Trees — Question by Mr Downie POIMMI8 MUMNIF518,.511.. KEIL7aTI11,411111‘21, • IMISki 111 ,,,72q, FRUIP 1111111111=MMIIIIM

T750 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

Mr Lowey: Mr President, whilst it is true that the water WATER SHORTAGES —AVOIDANCE from Struan Barrule stream intake is naturally more acidic MEASURES — QUESTION BY MR KERMODE than most other sources used for public supplies in the Island and contains a higher concentration of natural The President: Question 20, the hon. member for aluminium than most and whilst it is also true that the Douglas East, Mr Kermode. afforestation can be associated with acidification and increases in aluminium content, the authority has no firm Mr Kermode: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the evidence either way of any possible link between the Chairman of the Water Authority: conifer planting and water quality of this particular source. The Struan Barrule source is now only used when What provisions are being made to avoid a insufficient alternative supplies are available, largely repetition of the water shortages of last year? because the treatment facilities provided for this source are very primitive and are not capable of consistently The President: The representative of the Water achieving EU water quality standards. Irrespective of water Authority. quality considerations, there has long been insufficient water available from the Struan Barrule intake source to Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I am sure this meet demand in the Foxdale supply area, especially in dry hon. Court would agree with me that the Water Authority weather. While the Struan Barrule intake, when in regular managed the drought situation last year with due care and use, typically supplies up to about 150,000 gallons a day, diligence when compared to the fate of many in other parts its reliable drought yield is probably not more than about of the British Isles. It was a particularly difficult situation 50,000 gallons a day, possibly less. The average demand and we were subject to only minor interruptions through in Foxdale is currently about 90,000 gallons a day. not being able to use our hosepipes for a few weeks. Since the '50s supplies in the area have had to be When we look back at the summer of last year it is supplemented by pumping water from the Glencrutchery worth noting that it was a very severe drought. Statistically water treatment works in dry weather, but increased speaking, it was in the order of a one in 300-year return demand in the other areas fed from Glencrutchery led to a period. Rainfall in the period to 1st April to 30th September strategic decision to feed the area by pumping water from at West Baldwin was 60 per cent of the long-term average the Sulby water treatment works in the future and at the for those months and the soil developed a soil moisture same time to provide an increased volume of treated water deficit in the order of 150 millimetres which indicates how storage above Foxdale. The estimated overall cost, as the dry the ground had become by the end of July. Demand hon. Court has been told in the past, of the new St John's for water was the highest on record and was the third pumping station and the new Foxdale service reservoir and successive year of increase. During the last 10 years it has connecting mains was £828,000. increased by about 30 per cent.

Mr Kermode: Well, answer the question, though. DOMESTIC WATER METERS — The President: That is a justification. We are awaiting QUESTION BY MR DOWNIE the answer, sir. The President: Question 19, the hon. member for Mr Lowey: Yes, indeed, I am trying to be as helpful as Douglas West, Mr Downie. I can, sir.

Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave to Mr Cannan: You are waffling. ask the Chairman of the Water Authority: Mr Lowey: The hosepipe ban was initially introduced Is your authority investigating the installation of on 1st July. Following a period of rainfall in July and domestic water meters with a view to making a charge for appeals for restraint it was lifted in August when water actually used? consumption had fallen considerably. However, the hot weather returned and the ban was subsequently introduced. The President: The representative of the Water The substantial investment which the Water Authority Authority to reply. made in the Sulby reservoir in 1982 undoubtedly saved the situation. With the vast reserves of water in the reservoir Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. It is not Water there was never a problem of having sufficient stocks of Authority policy to charge domestic properties for water water available. The problem has always been concerned consumed on a volumeric basis, although many Manx with the ability to treat and distribute that water. That is farms and businesses are charged in this way. The authority not the problems that they had in other places, if I may say is not currently investigating any proposals for the so, it was the inability to have water. installation of meters for domestic properties, although it The actions taken last year to avoid a water shortage would always wish to keep this option open. were put in place at considerable expense and included pumping water from Sulby reservoir, over the hill at Beinn Mr Downie: I thank the minister for his reply. y Phott Temporary booster pumps were installed in the

Domestic Water Meters — Question by Mr Downie Water Shortages — Avoidance Measures — Question by Mr Kermode TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T751 distribution system at Crosby to supply the southern part various roles that he has filled a very long and varied of the Island and extensive rezoning also took place. I am political career. The essence of the problem in so far as I sure that if the same severe dry weather pattern returned have it as this moment of time is what to include and indeed through the summer this year we would be able to rely on what to leave out. the dedication of the staff. Charles Kerruish the politician is, like his family, as The Water Authority have in place similar operational Manx as gorse. Ballafayle, his home in Maughold, has, I measures to last year, but ultimately this may have to understand, been the family farm for over 300 years. He include a ban on the use of hose-pipes if the situation and his family have had a very close relationship with both becomes as severe as last year. the land and indeed the parish over very many years. I would like to say what the position of the water in the He was educated at Dhoon School and travelled thereto reservoirs is at this particular time. The water supply by tram, a means of transport and education which was situation this year is that the reservoirs have all filled up to followed by my wife's brother and sister in later years. He overflowing this winter. We are currently in a very strong received a scholarship to attend Ramsey Grammar School position. On 18th May reservoirs, with the exception of and on leaving school he became a ploughman on the Sulby, were only just below top water level - West Baldwin family farm and it was from this occupation that his interest was 99 per cent full, the Clypse was 100 per cent, and love of horses, and in particular heavy horses, Kerrowdhoo was 100 per cent, Cringle was 99 per cent, developed. Sulby was 79 per cent - and demand was within the level A very competitive individual, as we all know, he expected for the time of year. The Water Authority looks became involved in many farming competitions, but at the forward to a summer without restrictions provided garden age of 19, that is, in 1936, following the death of his father, watering is not excessive and there is average rainfall. he had to take over the running of the farm. He participated in all political farming organisations including the Farmers Mr Kermode: A supplementary, Mr President. The Club, the Farmers Union and the Royal Manx Agricultural answer to the question that the minister has just given is Society and became in fact the youngest president of all that there is nothing new from last year and they have done these organisations. absolutely nothing and if it should recur next year we will He was commissioned into the Home Guard during the have a similar situation. war and married Margaret Gell of Peel in November 1942. About this time he became increasingly aware of what he The President: It will rain, member, no question. regarded as the unfairness of the Island's then economic Hon. members, with the agreement of the Court I should system to the poor of the community and this led him like to conclude the question paper at 2.30 if you would eventually to contest the House of Keys seat for Garff at agree to that being done. Is that acceptable, hon. members? the age of 25. However, on this his first attempt, he was unsuccessful but he was elected on 23rd May 1946 at his Members: Agreed. second attempt and it is interesting to note that he and his then colleagues took their oath of office some six months The President: Thank you. later on 8th October 1946. Before talking about his political career from that date it would be wrong if I did not mention Lady Kerruish whom he married in January 1975, following the death of his TRIBUTE TO SIR CHARLES KERRUISH ON 50 first wife Margaret on 28th December 1970. Sir Charles YEARS' PARLIAMENTARY SERVICE has four children and we are delighted that both Lady Kerruish and all the children are here with us today. It is, This motion was taken in the presence of His by the way, interesting to note that he has been Captain of Excellency the Deputy Governor, Deemster J W Corrin the Parish of Maughold since 1960. CBE. My primary function this afternoon is to present what I hope you will recognise as a reasonable summary of his The President: Hon. members, turning to the order distinguished political career. What can I say about Charles paper, I call upon the hon. Mr Speaker to move item 3. Kerruish the politician? The following is a brief, dated summary of some events which hopefully will give a The Speaker: Mr Deputy Governor, Mr President, Lady flavour of the man and indeed of his political beliefs. Kerruish, members of the Kerruish family, members of On 21st January 1947, within three months of having Tynwald and distinguished guests, to celebrate the 50 years taken the oath of office, he posed a number of questions of service that Sir Charles Kerruish has given to political on the Tynwald agenda, but one of them is notable, notable life in this Island is an important and historic parliamentary for its length and indeed its complexity. The subject was occasion. My responsibility is to paint a picture so as to fatstock supplies and fatstock imports and it contained, in give you all an impression as to what has happened during terms of my assessment of this question, eight principal this 50-year period. This is by no means an easy task and I parts and 13 sub-parts. The question - and this was not the am sure that if each one of us were asked to paint this answer, I would remind you - contained approximately same picture we would all produce different scenes. It is 210 words. necessarily a very selective process and I can only hope to In February 1952 he posed a question to the then give a flavour of the man, his political ambitions and the Governor asking His Excellency to investigate the staging

Tribute to Sir Charles Kerruish on 50 Years' Parliamentary Service • WE.CTAIMI MOM 1111.1.1.91NME.i ll

1152 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 of a state lottery on the TT races to raise revenue for both sadness felt in parting with the hon. member for Garff and pensions and hospital services. his roguish contributions to debates in the House upon his O In 1958 Charles Kerruish was one of the members relegation to the Speakership. He went on to say, 'We shall renominated by the Governor to serve on Executive miss him and from now he will have to show us the respect Council in February of that year. I should mention that at that has been due to us.' (Laughter) 'He will not be allowed that time he was already Chairman of the Health Services to interfere with debates and he will have to pay us that Board, a role that he filled for 11 years. All but one of the impartial respect which was not his practice in the past.' seven candidates nominated by the Governor were rejected (Laughter) It is interesting to note that the Acting Speaker and a new list of nominations was finally approved, after then posed the question, 'Are you seconding the motion?' two attempts, in May 1958. (Laughter) Shortly thereafter the Lieutenant Governor announced Mr Kerruish was a member of numerous deputations the appointment of a five-man commission to inquire into relating to the constitution but it must be recorded that, and report upon the constitution of the Isle of Man. Mr when elected as Speaker, he was the youngest person ever Irving, whom we are delighted to see here today, had in to hold that office in that, if my calculations are right, he fact asked for such a commission in the previous year but was then 45. the deadlock to which I have referred seemed to precipitate In March 1977 Mrs Betty Hanson moved that, firstly, matters. The MacDermott Commission, which was an the millennium of Tynwald be celebrated in 1979 and that important constitutional landmark, reported a year later in a select committee of five members be appointed to 1959 and most of its recommendations were implemented consider the best means of marketing the one thousandth in 1965. anniversary. In retrospect it is amazing that the debate that Charles Kerruish has always been in favour of self- took place was very short indeed, as indeed was the government for this Island and I have with me, or adjacent contribution made by Mr Speaker. However, the committee on the desk where I normally sit, a copy of both the written that was appointed, which comprised six members of statement submitted by him to the MacDermott Tynwald Court, included Mr Speaker and we must put on Commission and indeed of the verbal evidence that he record his considerable contribution to its deliberations and subsequently gave in person. Amongst the other things that the manner in which the millennium was celebrated. he said was the following: 'We must have bi-cameral On 21st February 1979 an important debate took place government but there are major criticisms which can be in Tynwald Court on the future of the agricultural and levied at the second chamber. It is undemocratic, it causes fishing industries on the Island and the financial support needless delay and it is expensive.' to be accorded thereto by government. This issue is topical He was against an elected second chamber on the same in that the policy then adopted was referred to by Tynwald basis as the Keys but wanted the House of Keys to play a as recently as November 1995 and I mention it today much larger role in the appointment of members of the because of the notable contribution made to that debate by Council. He wanted the Council to be able to apply a brake the then Speaker who spoke at length and indeed put on hasty and ill-considered legislation and as a consequence forward an amendment which was approved and formed of these views supported the abolition of seats held part of the motion and presumably still forms part of the traditionally by deemsters, the Bishop and the Attorney- basis for government support for these industries. General. He advocated - and remember this was nearly 40 In that same year Charles Kerruish, who had been made years ago - that the upper House should be presided over a Member of the Order of the British Empire in 1964 had by one of its own members and not by the Governor, a knighthood conferred on him by Her Majesty the Queen. although he was in favour of the Governor taking the chair On 24th November 1981, following his appointment as in Tynwald. It was his then hope that the appointment of Speaker, Sir Charles said in his speech of thanks, 'My aims the Attorney-General should be in the hands of the insular remain constant. I intend no modification of my oft • government, not the Home Office, and favoured the expressed personal wish that within the confines of this appointment of a cabinet from the House of Keys whose Island we should control our own destiny and achieve a authority would be paramount. new political identity.' I am sure these remarks are in These were the then radical proposals which were character. amplified in over 15 pages of closely argued verbal On 15th January 1983 at a sitting of Tynwald Court the exchanges with the members of the commission. It is then Lieutenant-Governor brought to the attention of interesting to note the extent to which the recommendations members that on 13th February 1983 Sir Charles would of the commission followed his line of reasoning and how celebrate 21 years in office as Speaker of the House of pertinent some of these issues are today. Keys, thus making him the longest continuous holder of Charles Kerruish was elected Speaker in 1962. He was the office of Speaker in the Commonwealth. nominated by Mr Bill Quayle, one of the Middle members, This is, in my opinion, an appropriate point at which to who referred to his gift of leadership and his guardianship mention an important constitutional debate which occurred of the rights and privileges of the House of Keys and its in 1967. At the sitting of the House on 6th December 1966 members. He went on to refer to his work with individual one of the first items on the agenda was the election of boards of Tynwald but emphasised his interest in Speaker. Mr H C Kerruish, as he then was, was duly elected constitutional matters. but not before a fairly lengthy debate had taken place with Mr Kerruish's nomination was seconded by Mr regard to the role of the Speaker. I should perhaps Canister, a well-known politician, who referred to the emphasise that there was not at any time any attempt to

Tribute to Sir Charles Kerruish on 50 Years' Parliamentary Service TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T753

personally criticise the way in which Mr Kerruish period, including Mr Frank Johnson, who again we are undertook his duties. The issue of concern, however, related delighted to see here today, who of course as a practising to the fact that the Speaker at that time could, quite apart advocate filled the role on a part-time basis. It is indeed from his role as Speaker, also be a member of Executive right and proper that we should welcome both him and Council and indeed chair one of the boards of Tynwald indeed Mr Robert Quayle, both of whom, as I have said, and be appointed Chairman of Executive Council. At that are with us today. time Mr Kerruish filled all these roles. As members all know, on 17th July 1990 Sir Charles Mr Irving expressed his concern that in effect the was elected President of Tynwald and as a consequence Speaker not only should act impartially but should be seen the then Lieutenant-Governor, Sir Laurence New, resigned by everyone on the Island to act impartially and from his responsibilities of presiding over Tynwald Court. consequently should not be a member of Executive This was an historic occasion in that for the first time, to Council, as it then was, or a board of Tynwald and should the best of my knowledge, a Manx man who has made certainly not be Chairman of Executive Council. substantial contribution to the political development of the On 14th February 1967 Mr Irving put down a motion Island over a long period of time was appointed President. of no confidence in the then Speaker of the House whilst This appointment was a fitting culmination of the years of he remained a member of Executive Council. It should be service that Sir Charles has made to the community and noted that Mr Kerruish had been appointed by His reflects both his standing and indeed the regard in which Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor to be a member of he is held in this Island. Having said this, I am sure that it the Council. A major and lengthy debate then ensued on would be the view of our President that the Island has not this important constitutional point and the motion was duly progressed towards complete self-government at the speed carried by 14 votes to 9. Mr Speaker, having spoken against that he would have preferred himself, and maybe it will O the motion, left the chamber whilst the debate took place. only be history which will let us know whether his When the House met on Tuesday, 21st December 1970 perception is right on this matter. it agreed, as a mark of respect following the death on 28th This selected potted history would be incomplete if I November 1970 of his then wife, Mrs Margaret Kerruish, did not refer, in conclusion, to what I believe are Sir to adjourn its proceedings until the following Tuesday, 28th Charles' political beliefs which to my mind are essentially December. There cannot have been many occasions when built around his commitment to the ongoing development this has taken place. of self-government for this Island. There is no doubt that It would indeed be wrong if I did not mention the these last 50 years have been very significant in political substantial contribution that he has made to the and historic terms, and his part therein will long be Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Indeed in May remembered. He has always stood for stability but has and 1971 he announced to the House of Keys that he had maybe still is impatient with the rate at which evolutionary accepted an invitation to represent the United Kingdom political progress is being made. He has been described as and the Mediterranean region of the CPA on its executive a 'red meat politician' and I think that that phrase aptly council and that for this purpose he would be visiting Prince describes the man. He is fearless in promoting what he Edward Island later that month. It is interesting to note considers to be the best interests of the Island and his that the current representative of that region for the CPA enthusiasm and commitment can best be illustrated by what executive is the member of the Council, Mr Lowey, who I consider to be his desire to cut through what he sees as recently returned from a meeting of the executive in South unnecessary red tape and to get on with the business in Africa. Quite apart from the very active role that Sir Charles hand. We congratulate you, sir, on a truly remarkable played in both bringing and presiding over the annual political career. (Members: Hear, hear.) I beg to move: plenary conference of the CPA in the Island in 1983-84 he has travelled widely in relation thereto, including visits to That this hon. Court, on behalf of the people of the India, the Caribbean, Canada and New Zealand. Isle of Man, expresses its appreciation of the contribution It would also be wrong if I did not particularly mention of Sir Charles Kerruish to the public service and the life the presence here today amongst our distinguished guests of the Island in the course of his membership of Tynwald of, firstly, the Hon. Jack Nivison who was first elected as over a period of 50 years. MHK for Middle in 1948 just two years after Charles Kerruish was first elected and served this Court for 40 Mr Walker: Mr President, Mr Speaker, hon. members, years until his retirement in 1988, and secondly, Clifford distinguished guests, I rise to support the motion so ably Irving who was first elected in 1955, noting his service as proposed by Mr Speaker who has reflected in some detail a member of this Court for, if my calculations are correct, your record of parliamentary service to our community 32 years. and I think there are just two comments that I would like We should note that Sir Charles has stood for election to add. The first is to mark our appreciation as members in Garff 10 times and on nine occasions has been for the way in which you have promoted the role of the successful. Ten members of this hon. Court were born on Isle of Man parliamentarian, jealously guarded our rights or after the date when he was first elected. Think on that. over the years and steadfastly striven to improve the (Laughter and interjection) facilities that are available to us so that we are better able Sir Charles has served with nine Lieutenant-Governors to promote the interests of our constituents, and secondly, during his long period of office and we also note that he sir, your aptitude for ceremony and promotion which have has been served by four Clerks of Tynwald during this been consistently demonstrated during your 34 years as a

• Tribute to Sir Charles Kerruish on 50 Years' Parliamentary Service T754 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 member of the Tynwald Ceremony Arrangements in the gallery this afternoon. Welcome to you all. Whether Committee, and although that ceremony has been with us supportive of my views or not, your contribution to my for over 1,000 years, I believe that in recent times great political career, encouraging when encouragement was improvements have been made to its presentation, many needed, applying the curb when you felt it appropriate, of them driven by your enthusiasm. As a result of these was always appreciated. Whether, as Edward Callister initiatives I believe that our outdoor assembly at St John's contended, it was to teach me a lesson in parliamentary on July 5th is recognised as a parliamentary institution of behaviour, I know not, but from 1962 when you first elected world stature. me, happily the youngest Speaker ever to hold the office, I am privileged, Mr President, to second the motion through the years that led to my present role as the first moved by Mr Speaker and I beg so to do. elected President of Tynwald, I enjoyed it to the full, for during those years as Speaker yet another door was to open The Speaker: Mr President, on behalf of all the and that was to prove of inestimable benefit to the members of Tynwald it gives me the greatest possible membership of this Court and still does. That was active pleasure to unveil this illuminated scroll, and I am sorry membership, referred to by the hon. member for Rushen, but I do not suppose everybody can see it at the same time, the Chief Minister, of the Commonwealth Parliamentary and I think you have a certain right to view it, sir, (Laughter) Association. Like the hon. Mr Lowey today, as Mr Speaker and everyone will have an opportunity to see it whilst we has said, I served a number of years on its executive and are having lunch because it will be taken upstairs to the with your support became its president in 1984. These were Millennium Room, but in presenting it to you to mark this years that broadened my horizons and helped me pursue very special occasion, sir, in so doing I would invite the my Tynwald objectives for, as you know, only the Tynwald Court to carry the motion on the order paper by applause. formula enables the Speaker to participate in any debate and the licence you gave me in that way was both Members stood in their places to applaud. appreciated and utilised. In the record 34 years I have acted as a presiding officer The President: Mr Acting Speaker, hon. members, first in this setting your confidence and trust extended over those of all I wish to thank you, Mr Speaker, and the Chief years has been an accolade which makes me feel very Minister for the generous manner in which you have moved humble and very proud of being a Manxman honoured by the resolution in respect of my years of service, and you, his peers. I can assure you such aspirations were far from my colleagues, for your acceptance of it. I shall certainly my mind when I first sought election in 1946. treasure the scroll you have so generously presented me After the long years of privation and sacrifice of the and hopefully share the beauty of the flowers presented to Second World War people sought the fulfilment of the my wife. promise of a better land, the better land for which so many I assure you that I am deeply conscious of the honour in the preceding years had sacrificed their all. Not for them you accord me this day in recognising my 50 years' the land of the poorhouse, the charity of the parish, nor the membership of Tynwald Court in this way. The presence land, as it was then, of dictatorial governors, the of His Excellency, my wife and family, former colleagues establishment and vested interest. They sought control of and friends serve to remind me that these have been years their own destiny. The preceding House of Keys had served during which I have accumulated an enormous debt of for some 12 years. It lacked verve. The Island, Garff in gratitude to a wide range of people both in this Island and particular, wanted action. I promised it and so began a overseas, in particular the people of Garff who have given partnership that happily lasted over 40 years. me nine consecutive election successes from 1946 The Tynwald of 1946 with its administration in the so- onwards, as an Independent. Now, no politician could every called 'wedding cake' adjacent to this building had a have hoped to be accorded such support and the friendship formidable task. They appointed Mr Frank Johnson, who that went with it and I am delighted to have a representative I am delighted is here today, as clerk to the Court and, of the assentors to my first successful nomination of 1946 although a part-time appointment, he acted as secretary, here today in the person of Mr James Quilleash, former gave assistance to members in drafting Bills and Captain of the Parish of Lonan. amendments, as well as acting as secretary to committees Now, although I stood as an Independent, I was always and drafting reports. dependent on the support of my family - I still am - and The government workforce totalled 227. Today the from my early days in the Island political scene it has been figure is 5,894. Thus equipped with its 227 employees their support which has enabled me to keep the pledge I overall the Tynwald set out on a programme to have far- made my constituents in 1946: 'I will speak the truth as I reaching benefit: the rehabilitation of the boarding-houses see it and follow my conscience without fear.' As an from their war-time role as prison camps was an economic example of the institution of family, mine are unbeatable priority; 2,000 homes, temporary and permanent, were and today I thank them for the love, encouragement and produced in five years; the Water Board was created to support which gave me the strength of purpose to fight for give the Island fresh water supplies and, hon. members, what I believed in and without that support I would not only people who have not had the privilege of mains water have served five years, let alone 50. can understand what a step forward that was; Ronaldsway Then I have to acknowledge my gratitude to you, my was acquired from the Admiralty, and the, by now, bankrupt colleagues of today, and also your predecessors in office hospital and medical services were to become the base over the years and I am delighted to see so many of them from which the National Health Service, rather like a

Tribute to Sir Charles Kerruish on 50 Years' Parliamentary Service TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T755

phoenix, was to spring, and this I consider one of the controlled by Her Majesty's United Kingdom Government; greatest boons ever provided for the Manx people. Starting and a failure I still consider has cost the Island dearly, that from scratch, it was a proud day for me when as the then of failing to persuade this Court to take over the Isle of chairman in 1956 I was able to announce that Lord Moran, Man Steam Packet Company when it was in its doldrums, private physician to Winston Churchill and President of its shares virtually worthless, believing then as now that the Royal College of Physicians, had visited the Island an Island nation should have effective control of its vital • and inspected its health service and declared it as communications. However, it was Richelieu who wrote, comparing most favourably with that of the United rightly, 'In the lexicon of youth there is no such word as Kingdom. And so, thank God, it has remained to this day. "fail".' And, I assure you, I am still yiSung at heart. Mr Speaker, you noted quite correctly that the 1946 (Members: Hear, hear.) assembly was joined in the course of its term of office by So successes with which I have been delighted to be the Hon. Jack Nivison whose distinguished record of associated would include the creation of the National services to our community is known to us all. Mr Nivison, Health Service; a measure of constitutional advance; the joining with Alfred Teare and Richard Kneen, were to negotiation of our special relationship with Europe; saving become a trio that made a remarkable contribution to the the Manx Electric Railway from the scrap heap; the welfare of the Manx people, and I think it worthy of note creation of a wildlife park within a curragh drainage that the Labour Party to which they belonged, though small scheme; and persuading Tynwald to double the size of in number, through all the years he served here, gave and Sulby reservoir and so ensure our supplies for the next continue to give service that bears the hallmark of century; broadening the Island's external relationships, excellence. particularly through the hon. Mrs Hanson's millennium Now, it was clear to me at the end of five years, with an resolution and the work of the Commonwealth election pending, that the constitutional relationship was Parliamentary Association. And here I would like to pure colonial, was denying our people any semblance of acknowledge the unparalleled contribution of Robert true democracy and inhibiting the Island's progress. The Quayle who as Clerk of Tynwald worked wonders in re- Governor's powers remained unabated under war-time establishing a relationship with the Nordic countries and regulations and the application of them led me to comment, establishing a relationship with Commonwealth countries `We are getting so used to having every phase of our lives and our Island. controlled that soon a generation will grow up which has Now, for many years, hon. members, I was privileged experienced nothing but control and will accept it as part to have the support and friendship of one of my and parcel of everyday living.' And I went on to say, 'It is constituents, the late Mona Douglas, who kept the flag of our duty to remove all regulation which thus endangers heritage flying when few expressed an interest. Today, our democratic way of life.' Well, what a forlorn hope that thanks to her, I feel I have been able to assist in creating an has proved to be. interest in heritage and language, and here I would seek a Around that time Tynwald was joined by the Hon. Mr commitment. You are all aware that the symbolic heart of Irving whose political judgement and eloquence, as Mr our nation is not to be found in this setting but in the vale Speaker noted, was always a feature of Tynwald of St John and it is St John's we must foster and revere as proceedings. He is recorded as saying in 1958, 'At the the symbol of our nationhood. moment you have six people from Whitehall ruining the Now, after 50 years, which in the words of our national Isle of Man. Unless the will of the people can prevail, we poet have been 'just like a puff, over and done and short are not a democracy.' How right he was. enough', thanks to the consistently undervalued efforts of That, hon. members, was broadly the setting of my first members past and present I see today the Island generally years in this Court. Unencumbered by the paper jungle of enjoying a remarkable degree of prosperity, and, equally today, hardly aware of the expression, 'consultant', the important, sound education, health and social services, all Court progressed its work effectively. The scene, as it were, auguring well for the future of the young, the incapacitated was set for me. and the not so young. But, hon. members, nothing stands Later I was to experience and enjoy a new influence in still in politics. The fragile constitutional base from which the Court, that of its lady members. With Annie Bridson this progress has been achieved is being eroded as surely and later Jean Thornton-Dewsbury as colleagues in Garff, as the shingle is drawn down the beach by the ebbing tide. I came to realise and understand the terrific contribution, Tynwald must urgently implement its own declared out of all proportion to its numbers, that our lady members resolution of 1981 which was renewed in 1987. We must have made from the days of Marion Shimmin to this day. also strive to maintain an identity as a government and use So the years flowed by, for me, like most others, filled fully the benefits that that confers, use our initiative, and, with a mix of success and failure. Notable failures would perhaps somewhat jocularly, I would liken the developing include the inability of Tynwald to halt the development pattern of operation here as being akin to that of a of Sellafield, a wholly-owned United Kingdom housewife getting hooked on convenience foods shopping Government project; the inability to develop Harold in supermarkets. We will have a large proportion of taxation Colebourn's dream of harnessing the Island's potential as a la Common Market, cooked by the United Kingdom a powerful radio transmission centre; the rejection by the Chancellor who has all the best ingredients. Then a dish United Kingdom of the Wireless Telegraphy Bill; failure of legislation prepared in the House of Commons - their to persuade Tynwald that a marine cable link would benefit recipe is so much better than ours - and then some of that Manx energy consumers; failure to stop our fishing being European salad dressing which will fortify and make it

Tribute to Sir Charles Kerruish on 50 Years' Parliamentary Service 1156 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 stronger before serving it as appetising regulations cuts of beef: topside, a reduction of 36 pence per pound; attributable to the European Community. Well, we have sirloin steak, a reduction of 65 pence per pound; stewing all been warned of the effects of such a diet. Hon. members, steak, a reduction of 44 pence per pound; braising steak, a our great inheritance should not be endangered by a failure reduction of 34 pence per pound; premium mince, a to produce our own answers to problems of the day. reduction of 13 pence per pound; and standard mince, a Today, Your Excellency, I am honoured by your reduction of 22 pence per pound. It is important, though, presence and that of Mrs Corrin in Tynwald and I hope it to remember that these are just average prices. may prove a portent for the future. To my wife and family, With regard to the reduction equating to the new cost to former colleagues and friends, your presence and support the taxpayer, as stated earlier, the board does not carry the this day touches me deeply. To you, Mr Speaker and Chief information appertaining to week 51. The board does, Minister, my renewed thanks for your generous tributes to however, have information on week 49 and again, taking my wife and myself. And finally to you, Mr Acting Speaker average prices, there was an overall reduction of beef prices and my colleagues here assembled, I would say thank you of 62 pence per kilo. The overall reduction of wholesale for everything you have done to make it possible. butcher prices for week 51 was 78 pence per kilo, and this I believe it to be incumbent on us all in the days ahead would indicate that where possible there was an average to seek to maintain the institution of Tynwald handed down corresponding reduction in the price of beef to the by our Viking forebears, to preserve our independence, consumer. The average retail price includes all cuts of meat our legislature, laws and customs and to work together for and therefore these figures can only be taken as a guide. I the benefit of the Island which we all in our innermost am somewhat perplexed, however, in the question from hearts hold dear. Thank you. the hon. member because, in Tynwald Court on Tuesday, 26th March 1996, the hon. member is recorded as saying Members stood in their places to applaud. `the consumers can do without their meat if they choose to do so. There is plenty of other food.' The President: Hon. members, the Court will now adjourn and the adjournment will be until 2.30, and I invite Mr Corrin: Mr President, I shall ignore that ignorant you all to join me in the Millennium Room for light remark at the end. Could I ask the hon. Chairman of refreshment. Thank you. Consumer Affairs, in view of the failure of the EU negotiations with the British Government last night, and it The Court adjourned at 1.00 p.m. would appear there is no early resolution to this BSE situation, and also in view of the considerable taxpayer support that is now put in to the industry as was in the BEEF — PRICES REDUCTION minister's reply this morning, will the hon. member give — QUESTION BY MR CORRIN an undertaking to watch this carefully, that the true intervention of the public money is passed on to the benefit The President: Hon. members, we revert to our of the public? consideration of the question paper and I call upon the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Corrin, to ask the question Mr Kermode: Mr President, I do not need to take this standing in his name. on board because it is done already. The only thing I would point out to members is, if they do read the local rag, they Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the can see various adverts advertising reductions in the price Chairman of the Board of Consumer Affairs: of meat in the Isle of Man by all sorts of differentials, so really we do not need to be asked to do this because we do (1) Has the lower market price for beef prevailing since our job thoroughly. week 51 been passed on to the Manx consumer; and The President: Hon. member, the Court is entitled to have the advantage of your response as chairman of the (2) if so, would you give examples, and does the consumer body without recourse to 'the local rag'. Thank reduction equate to the new cost to the taxpayer? you. The hon. Mr Barton.

The President: The Chairman of the Board of Mr Barton: Mr President, could the Chairman of Consumer Affairs to reply. Consumer Affairs confirm - when he is talking about average prices, is he talking about the prices of Manx beef, Mr Kermode: Thank you, Mr President. In answer to for instance, on the Island or imported meats, and when he part (1) of the question, there has been a lower market says average price, is the average price a very wide band price prevailing since week 51, and this is reflected in the because - I am speaking from a personal angle - in the last price paid by the consumer. The board's beef retail prices three weeks that I have been involved in purchasing beef, summary provides information on week 49, this being the for instance, there is a substantial increase in price as it nearest to week 51 due to the survey being undertaken on was a few weeks ago? a monthly basis. In response to the second part of the question, the board's Mr Kermode: Mr President, all we can do is take the summary indicates an average reduction in the following average price and, in answer to the hon. member's question

Beef — Price Reduction — Question by Mr Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T757

regarding imported meat or Manx meat, we have found in The answer to part (1) is therefore, yes, and that to part 0 the past that there are certain cuts of meat that are imported (2) is that the integrity of the hon. members is relied upon. that are cheaper, there are certain cuts of meats that are imported that are dearer than Manx meat and there are Mr Corrin: Mr President, could I refer to the current certain cuts of meat that are the same price. So really we investigation into the meat plant and could I ask the . can only take the average price across the board. chairman of the committee if he can understand the concerns of those on the government side, civil servants, The President: Thank you, hon. member. who do not have any real method of reply, and others, when they are aware that the hon. member for Ayre, serving on the committee - his election agent is in fact, and was until PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE very recently, the chairman of the FMA and indeed — MEMBERS' INTERESTS — appeared before the committee last Friday afternoon, QUESTION BY MR CORRIN according to the newspapers, and do you consider that that is natural justice? The President: Hon. members, question 22. The hon. member for Rushen, Mr Corrin. The Speaker: Mr President, I think I have recited to the best of my ability the terms and conditions which Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the govern the membership of the Public Accounts Committee, Chairman of the Standing Committee of Public Accounts: and I am quite satisfied that the member for Ayre is a man of complete integrity. (Members: Hear, hear.) I think, as (1) Do you agree that members of the Public Accounts far as I am concerned, that answers the inference behind • his question completely. Committee should not sit on an investigating committee if it could be construed that they have a link with the subject under investigation; and Mr Corrin: Mr President, I made no reflection upon the integrity of the member. I am speaking about natural (2) if so, what formal procedures are in place to ensure justice and would the hon. chairman agree with me, or the integrity of the committee's work? agree with a legal view expressed to me, that if you were to name people arising from the activities into this inquiry, The President: The Chairman of the Standing it could well end up in a claim on government? Committee of Public Accounts to reply. The Speaker: I, sir, am not qualified to give a legal The Speaker: Mr President, the standing order which opinion on anything. All I can say to you, sir, is that I do constitutes the Public Accounts Committee provides that not agree with the inference behind your question. `The Chairman, Vice-Chairman and any member of the Committee shall not sit when the accounts of any body of Mr Quine: Is the chairman of the Public Accounts which that person is a member are being considered'. Committee aware that in fact I have no election agent and Moreover, it is indicated in the committee's special report certainly the former chairman of the FMA is not my on the procedures of the committee, issued in October election agent? 1995, the quorum of the committee was fixed at three in recognition of the fact that it would not be proper for The Speaker: I now am, sir. 0 members to participate in inquiries into matters in which they have been politically involved. Members invariably The President: Now, hon. members, that concludes our declare such an involvement. Members also declare more examination of the question paper. The balance of questions remote links such as former departmental membership. at 23 and 24 are for written answer and the answers have So far as I am aware, no member has been involved in been circulated. an inquiry for which he or she has had political responsibility. For example, in the case of the recent investigation into certain government building contracts, TT RACES ANNIVERSARY — PROVISION FOR neither I nor the hon. member for Ayre participated because EXHIBITION CENTRE — QUESTION BY certain contracts were involved which dated from the time MR CROWE FOR WRITTEN ANSWER when the hon. member and I were at the Department of Health and Social Security. Question 23 In the case of a current investigation concerning the meat plant, both the hon. members of the Council, Mr Luft The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Crowe, to ask and Mr Waft, have not taken part because of membership the Chief Minister: of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, the Department of Transport and the Department of Local As 1997 will be the 90th anniversary of the start of Government and the Environment. the TT races, would you consider including in the

Public Accounts Committee — Members' Interests — Question by Mr Corrin TT Races Anniversary — Provision for Exhibition Centre — Question by Mr Crowe for Written Answer T758 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

1996-97 policy document a commitment in principle to Douglas Corporation building at the grandstand a permanent 77' and MGP Races Hall of Fame and Exhibition Centre by the year Car Parks 2000? 1995-96 1996-97 Increase Percentage Answer Increase Shaw's Brow The suggestion in the question is an interesting one and Pay and Display £ I would be happy to ask the Department of Tourism and 1st session - Leisure to give it consideration. 0800 - 1345 hrs 1.50 2.00 0.50 33.33 2nd session - 1245 - 1700 hrs 1.50 2.00 0.50 33.33 DOUGLAS CAR PARKS - 0800 -1700 hrs 2.50 3.50 1.00 40.00 INCREASES IN CHARGES - Saturday - QUESTION BY MR CORRIN 1 hour 0.30 0.40 0.10 33.33 Saturday - FOR WRITTEN ANSWER 2 hours 0.40 0.50 0.10 25.00 Saturday - Question 24 over 2 hours 0.50 0.60 0.10 20.00

The hon. member for Rushen, Mr Corrin, to ask the Villiers, Cambrian Place and Bottleneck Minister for the Treasury: Pay and Display What increases in car parking charges have been First hour 0.40 0.50 0.10 25.00 levied, in both actual and percentage terms, over the 10- Second hour 0.60 0.70 0.10 16.67 year period ending 31st March 1996, in respect of Douglas Third hour 1.20 1.40 0.20 16.67 car parks operated and owned by the Department of Local All day Government and the Environment and Douglas (Villiers and Corporation? Cambrian) 5.00 6.00 1.00 20.00 Bottleneck/Prom Bottleneck Answer Up to 9 hours 2.50 3.00 0.50 20.00 Up to 24 hours The relevant bodies mentioned in the question have been (1 day) 5.00 6.00 1.00 20.00 asked for the information to enable me to answer the Up to 48 hours question as the Treasury does not control car parking (2 days) 8.00 9.00 1.00 12.50 charges. Up to 72 hours (3 days) 12.00 12.00 0.00 0.00 Department of Local Government Up to 96 hours (4 days) 16.00 16.00 0.00 0.00 Chester Street Up to 120 hours (5 days) 20.00 20.00 0.00 0.00 1/4/86 1/4/96 Actual Percentage Increase Increase Excess Charge All Pay & Display Car Parks * 40.00 40.00 0.00 0.00 Less than 1 hour 10p 40p 30p 300 (Last revised Less than 2 hours 20p 50p 30p 150 1995) Less than 3 hours 30p 70p 40p 133 * Charge reducible Less than 4 hours 40p £1.50 £1.10 275 to £20 20.00 20.00 0.00 0.00 Less than 5 hours 50p £1.80 £1.30 260 if paid within More than 5 hours 60p £3.00 £2.40 400 14 days

The above charges are inclusive of value added tax. The above are inclusive of value added tax.

At the moment I am awaiting details of Douglas Corporation's charges for 1st April 1986 but attach a BRUSSELS - VISIT BY DELEGATION - schedule showing the charges for 1995-96 and 1996-97 STATEMENT BY THE CHIEF MINISTER with the increases in actual and percentage terms. When I have the details for 1986 to hand I will forward them to The President: Now we turn back to the order paper, the hon. member. and I call on the Chief Minister to deal with item 4.

Douglas Car Parks - Increases in Charges - Question by Mr Corrin for Written Answer Brussels - Visit by Delegation - Statement by the Chief Minister TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T759

Mr Walker: Thank you, Mr President. I am pleased to a timely opportunity to learn at first hand how the situation have the opportunity of reporting to members on the visit is viewed in Brussels and to explain the Island's difficulties to Brussels by an Isle of Man Government delegation to officials and to members, who were uniformly during the period 6th to 8th May. It was my pleasure to sympathetic. lead the delegation. I had with me the Minister for the The EU officials who we called upon dealt with a range Treasury, the Minister for Industry, the Minister for of issues: financial services - and we were able to stress Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and we were supported the importance of market access for Isle of Man products by the Chief Secretary and, for part of the visit, by the - and the need for Europe to avoid closing its markets to chief executive of the Financial Supervision Commission. third country competition; indirect taxation, where we were This was the third in a recent series of visits by an Isle of advised of the general overview of the commission's Man Government delegation and the second since we indirect taxation policy; agriculture - and clearly that decided to undertake such visits annually. discussion was dominated by the BSE debate; and the The visit had several objectives. Firstly, we were environment, where again we were given an overview of endeavouring to promote an improved understanding the commission's longer-term strategy. within the EU of the quality and responsibility to the We extended our contacts with members of the Island's finance industry and its regulatory authorities; European Parliament this year. A number we called on secondly, we wanted to discuss developments and update individually and we hosted a small luncheon in Brussels our knowledge and understanding of a range of general which was aimed principally at those who we had and specific topics; and thirdly, we wished to establish, or previously met or who had met other Isle of Man ministers. re-establish, contacts with individuals within the EU who Altogether we had discussions with 10 Members of the may be valuable as sources of information or assistance European Parliament. As with previous visits, we found some time in the future. these members to be genuinely helpful and interested in To meet these objectives, we proposed a programme this Island and willing to talk about a whole range of topics. with a number of elements. These included briefings from The general issues to which I have already referred and officers of the United Kingdom permanent representation the BSE situation were particularly discussed. There was in Brussels, meeting with EU officials dealing with a range great interest in our efforts to attract a film industry and of topics which were of particular interest to us, and contact the imminent exploration for hydrocarbons in our waters. with members of the European Parliament, some of whom Throughout all these meetings we were, of course, we had met on earlier visits, a courtesy call on a senior concerned to stress the quality and merits of this Island as figure in Brussels and attendance as observers at one of an offshore business location, and it was reassuring to note the proceedings of the Union's institution. that no-one, neither Members of the European Parliament There were, therefore, five elements in the programme nor any officials, had any criticism or bad reports about which we proposed and I am happy to report that the UK the Island to relay to us. Government, who acted as our agent, was able to One of the highlights of our visit was the call we made accommodate all our wishes and arrange the details very on Commissioner Neil Kinnock. He was generous with much to our satisfaction. The initial phase of the his time and warm in his reaction to us. He is, of course, programme was a series of briefings by officials of the the commissioner with responsibility for transport and he UK permanent representation. These concerned major was familiar with our merchant shipping register and ongoing issues such as economic and monetary union, the supportive of it as an alternative to other more remote and intergovernmental conference which has just begun and is less responsible registers. We also took the opportunity, at in the process of reviewing the Treaty on European Union the meeting with the commissioner, to discuss further the and the possible enlargement of the European Union to BSE situation and to stress the difficulties which this Island include countries from Eastern Europe. These briefings is facing. also dealt with the Union approach to taxation and to the On each of our visits we have made a point of arranging regulation of the financial services industries. to attend the proceedings of one of the Union's institutions. It was useful for us to hear how committed the Union is This is essentially an education and familiarisation exercise to monetary union and that the timetable for a single designed to give us a feel of how things are done in currency is likely to be met by a significant number of Brussels, and this year we called on the offices of the member states, although it is likely, at least initially, the Economic and Social Committee and observed one of its UK will not be included. We noted the limited progress so sections in session - an interesting experience if only to far made by the intergovernmental conference and the observe the protocols in action and to note the complex likely timetable for its work and, looking further ahead, logistics of a multi-national, multi-lingual committee at we were given an insight into some of the difficulties that work. are likely to flow from a substantial enlargement of the Altogether we had the equivalent of two full days in Union. Brussels, and I am sure that I speak for all the delegation Our arrangements for the visit were established some when I say that it was interesting and it was worthwhile. months in advance and certainly before the BSE situation Set against our objectives, I would be confident that we had developed. Nevertheless, the visit did provide us with promoted the Island successfully and effectively,

Brussels — Visit by Delegation — Statement by the Chief Minister T760 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 underlining the quality of the Island and its business The President: Thank you, Chief Minister. community. We also explained fully the difficulties being faced by the Island in seeking to deal with BSE. We came away with an improved understanding of a range of issues PLANNING — WRIGHT'S PIT EAST which in the longer term are likely to be important to the APPLICATION — FAILURE TO USE Island, either directly or indirectly, and we established or SPECIAL INQUIRY PROCEDURE — re-established contact with a larger number of people, REVOTE — MOTION LOST officials and elected representatives, who uniformly were warm and interested in their response and who, I think, we The President: We move on, hon. members, to item 5 can generally regard as friends. In all, Mr President, it was on the order paper and I call upon the hon. member for a satisfactory visit. Ayre, Mr Quine. On the return leg of the journey, in order to get the maximum out of the visit, we made a point of meeting in Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: London with those members of the United Kingdom Manx Parliamentary Group who were available. Nine members That Tynwald is of the opinion that the decision of of the group were able to meet us and I think we were able the Council of Ministers not to subject Planning to do some further good work cementing the positive and Application No. 95/1572 (Wright's Pit East) to a special supportive relationship we do have with members of that inquiry under section 1 of the Town and Country Planning group. Again we were able to explain specifically how the Act 1981, is an ill-considered exercise of its statutory BSE problem was affecting us and we were encouraged discretion. by their sympathetic and supportive response and, indeed, a number of them offered assistance if that should be I believe this motion is clearly defined and that the necessary in the coming months. purpose of bringing it back to this sitting will be readily Returning to the Island, we are clear in our own minds understood. The question is whether or not the Council of that there is a cumulative benefit to be gained from such Ministers were ill-advised in exercising their statutory visits and we are recommending to the Council of Ministers discretion in a manner that Planning Application No. 95/ that visits to Brussels continue to be arranged on an annual 1572 (Wright's Pit, East) has been denied the benefit of a basis. I thank you, sir. special planning procedure. That is the substance of the matter. Mr Delaney: I thank the Chief Minister for the briefing At the April sitting of Tynwald, when I first moved this note because I asked him to highlight, or indicate further motion, I explained the substantive differences between information, in relation to two aspects of his statement. the ordinary planning procedure and the special planning He said he met with state members - would he please tell procedure. Suffice it to say that the special planning us which of the state members of the Union he actually procedure is a public inquiry, open to the public - the spoke to? How many different member states did they ordinary planning procedure is not; that, secondly, all represent? And secondly, in relation to the single currency, interested parties may make representations at a special bearing in mind our relationship and a connection with inquiry, whereas at an ordinary inquiry only those living the British currency, will we be tied or are we getting to in the immediate vicinity may do so - in other words, only the position when they decide not to decide to go with the those deemed by the presiding officer to have sufficient European currency, whether we will be following them or interest may have right of representation or presentation; leading them? thirdly, the special inquiry ordinarily entails a full environmental assessment and the ordinary inquiry does The President: Reply, sir. not; and fourthly, that Tynwald can annul the decision from a special inquiry, whereas in an ordinary inquiry the final Mr Walker: Yes, as far as the MEPs we met were decision rests with the Council of Ministers. concerned, Mr President - Scotland is a special state, I It is my belief that I established quite clearly at the April suppose - there were two. The majority were MEPs sitting of Tynwald that the circumstances attached to the representing constituencies in the United Kingdom and Wright's Pit East, application fully meet the criteria set there was one representing a constituency in Scotland. On out in section 1 of the 1981 Act. I accepted also, when I a previous occasion we met a member from Germany. We had arranged to meet a lady member from Germany this moved this motion at the last sitting of Tynwald, that time but she was unfortunately unavailable to meet us at Tynwald cannot reverse the Council of Ministers' decision the time that had been arranged. We intended, really, to not to invoke the special inquiry procedure; the statutory make contact with those MEPs who lived closest to us and discretion is theirs to be exercised. However, Tynwald can, represent UK constituencies. and I would submit should, record their disapproval when As far as the monetary situation is concerned, we did it is established that the Council of Ministers have exercised not go into detail of the Isle of Man situation into that. We that discretion in an ill-advised manner. believe that that is a matter for the future and it is much Now, at the April sitting, this motion found support in dependent on what the UK does. the Keys but with 11 supporting it and 9 being opposed to it, and in the Council it failed by one vote to secure support; Mr Delaney: Thank you. it was a 4 : 5 vote. In the Keys, apart from the members of

Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Revote — Motion Lost TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T761

the Council of Ministers, only one member voted against Manx Nature Conservation Trust is to attend the inquiry the motion, and that was Mr Gilbey. In the Council five as a witness on behalf of the Advisory Council on Planning members voted against the motion: Mr Lowey, Mr Barton, and the Environment. The other two applications excluded Mr Waft, Mr Luft and Mrs Christian. I would ask that we were from a resident of Andreas and a resident of Douglas. now have a combined vote on this matter.of the Keys and The hon. member for Ayre, in April, suggested that Council in accordance with the standing order referred to residents in Bowring Road and Grove Mount, Ramsey, • in the motion. I do not think, at this juncture, I need to say had been denied participation. There have, in fact, any more, sir. Thank you. according to my inquiries, been no applications to participate from anyone living in those roads. Mr Quine Mr Cannan: I beg to second, sir. said he had 30 letters from people in Ramsey who believed they had been wrongly excluded. Those people never The President: Thank you, hon. member. Now we have contacted the inspector, nor the Chief Secretary's office. the resolution before the Court. The hon. member for Why they should write to Mr Quine giving the sort of Rushen, the Chief Minister. information that he has is a mystery to me. He also said the Angling Federation has been denied Mr Walker: Thank you, Mr President. This matter, as access, but their letter appears to relate to the Wright's Pit the hon. member, the mover of the resolution, states, is North application, not the Wright's Pit East. He also said - back to this hon. Court for a revote. I would ask members I quote, 'Bride village has been denied participation in the to consider carefully the situation that is in front of them, planning inquiry because it has been determined they do to reassess the situation before just casting their votes in not have sufficient interest.' Mr President, that is not true. the same way perhaps as they did on the last occasion. All residents of Bride have been accepted except two Now, when the issue came before the April sitting of residents of the village who made application 41 days late, Tynwald, the hon. member for Ayre sought to argue two and they were denied on the basis that they were well out principal points: firstly, that people were being excluded of time. Had they submitted views within the specified from the inquiry who had an important contribution to timescale, they would no doubt have been admitted like make and that, unless a special inquiry were held, their the other residents. So we are not talking of rights being views would not be considered, the inquiry would not ignored or about applications being refused in a wholesale address all the concerns and that they would be prejudiced; or arbitrary manner. and, secondly, that the issues raised by the planning It is also worth making the point that all the comments application for Wright's Pit East, were such that only a received by the inspector, regardless of their origin and special inquiry could ensure that they were properly regardless of whether or not they were submitted by addressed. persons who were subsequently accepted as parties, will I would like hon. members to look at the first issue, that form part of the documentation of the planning application one of the parties to proceedings. At the April sitting of and will be taken into account, as they normally are. Any Tynwald the hon. member for Ayre made something of an points of relevance raised will undoubtedly be fully issue of those who had not been allowed to play a part in considered by the inspector. the planning process and I think it just might be helpful if The second issue that was raised by the hon. member I were to recite the facts as I understand them. Following when we discussed this at last month's sitting was the the statutory advertisement there were 15 letters difference and the relevance that this particular application commenting on Wright's Pit East, or on the pit in the east should go to a special inquiry or be dealt with and called and on Wright's Pit North. The inspector considered all of in as a normal application by the department. The these letters and determined the following points: all requirement of the 1981 Act which must be satisfied for persons from Bride village who had written in would have the Council of Ministers to call in an application is to been given party status; the local commissioners should consider whether there are considerations of general be a party and the local MHK, Mr Quine, should be a party; importance to the Island which are relevant and which the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry's require evaluation but a proper evaluation thereof cannot Wildlife Committee should be a party and that the Advisory be made unless there is a special inquiry for the purpose. I Council on Planning and the Environment be given party tried last month to cite the differences between a special status as they were set up to represent the views of the inquiry and an ordinary inquiry under the inspector. I was conservation organisations under the Town and Country not saying that there is no difference in the process but I Planning Act 1981. was saying, I hope clearly, that there were a number of Only five of those who wrote in were excluded and they similarities, both types of inquiry being subject to were a resident of Ramsey who did not live on or near the consideration by an independent inspector and in fact - traffic route to the site, the Manx Nature Conservation Trust and I did say this - the same panel of inspectors are used and Society for the Preservation of the Manx Countryside for both sorts of inquiries. Both are the subject of an and Environment - and statutorily it is worth explaining independent report and recommendation from an inspector; that the Advisory Council on Planning and the Environment in both cases all the issues need to be addressed, and the should represent conservation interests, and the Advisory inspector will need to be satisfied the department's Council was seen as the appropriate body to represent both application is sound in all its respects; and in both cases the trust and the society. In fact, it is understood that the the inspector reports to the Council of Ministers. One of

Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Revote — Motion Lost T762 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 the main differences - and I accept this, and the hon. raised by others and satisfy himself on all aspects whether member Mr Quine when he was on his feet just a few or not they are raised by anyone else. If he did not, he moments ago made this point - is that under the special would be failing in his responsibility. inquiry Tynwald comes in as part of the process. I did not I do not believe we should have any fear that the deny that at the last meeting at all, Mr President, and, aware inspector will fail to address any of the relevant issues. of the concern of the hon. member. I did suggest that I The procedures established for dealing with the Wright's would be bringing this matter back to Tynwald anyway if Pit East planning application, I believe, are entirely the Council of Ministers had any reason to overturn the adequate and perfectly appropriate for the issues that are decision of the inspector. So I am not hiding, we are not likely to be raised. I ask hon. members to think about the shying away from a Tynwald debate on this matter at all, statute against which the Council of Ministers gave its but that is not the issue that the Council of Ministers need consideration. What were the issues in this application that to consider when looking at a planning application; it is makes it different? The hon. member suggested, and it has whether or not a proper evaluation cannot be made unless been suggested by others, I think, its proximity to the sea. there is a special inquiry for the purpose, and we were Its proximity to the sea is a matter of fact and will be unconvinced that this application warranted that procedure. considered by the inspector whether it is under this The inspector who has been appointed to conduct the procedure or any other procedure. That matter will be inquiry into Wright's Pit East is Mr Stephen Crowe. We looked at in detail. It is not a matter, as suggested by the draw our panel of independent inspectors from the ranks hon. member Mr Delaney, that this same issue might of the recently retired planning inspectors of the United happen in any of your own back yards or by any of your Kingdom. Mr Crowe is in his second year of service to us neighbours, 'so look out and support the application.' That and, before his retirement in the UK, he was the chief is not a consideration that the Council of Ministers have to planning inspector and chief executive of the planning give, thank goodness, and quite rightly. inspectorate. He was the top inspector in the United I ask hon. members to look at resolution number 5 and Kingdom. As well as serving on the Isle of Man inspector's it says, 'That Tynwald is of the opinion that the decision panel, Mr Crowe is an honorary professor of town and of the Council of Ministers not to subject planning country planning practice at the Department of Urban and application no. 95/1572... to a special inquiry under section Regional Planning of University of Wales and is involved 1 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1981 is an ill- in research, extensive writing and lecturing in the UK and considered exercise of its statutory discretion.' I can tell at international conferences on planning matters. He is a you, the Council of Ministers considered the matter most distinguished practitioner in this field and no-one, I seriously; it considered the matter following a request from do not believe, is more competent to deal thoroughly with the hon. member for Ayre to set up a special inquiry a planning inquiry under whatever process. procedure. It considered the implications. I do not believe Since the April sitting it has been possible to raise with what we arrived at was an ill-considered exercise of its Mr Crowe the concerns expressed in Tynwald by the hon. statutory discretion. member for Ayre, because I have to say I was concerned I hope hon. members will reconsider how they voted about the concerns he expressed and the way they were last month, give some thought to this issue because it is an expressed and whether, notwithstanding that inquiry will important one, and I would ask you not to support the be deal with under the normal procedure rather than by resolution that is on the agenda sheet. special inquiry, he would see it as his responsibility to satisfy himself on all relevant aspects of the matter. He The President: May I call upon the hon. member to has written his reply as follows: 'I can readily confirm reply? that, regardless of the formal procedure under which an inquiry and application of this nature is held, I would not Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. The issue is not consider that I had properly discharged my professional whether or not Mr Crowe will fail in discharging his duty unless I was satisfied as to all the relevant aspects of responsibilities; I do not question that for a moment. The the case. Failing such satisfaction it would be possible to question is whether the Council of Ministers have failed report only in negative terms.' in discharging their responsibilities. That is the issue, and In that context, another point which I believe we need I think it is a somewhat extraordinary procedure that the to recognise is that a planning inquiry is not like a court of Council of Ministers, having set in motion a planning law. It is not the case that the inspector sits in independent inquiry, should then be in contact with the inspector before judgement of the case presented by a number of adversarial that inquiry is concluded in a manner which I would suggest parties. The inspector has or should have a more pro-active could be construed by members of the public as an role than that. If it were true the inspector simply decided interference with the planning inquiry. I think that is quite between competing cases, he would by definition be extraordinary. required to approve any application to which there were Let me go back and deal with the points raised by the no objectors regardless of its implications, and clearly that Chief Minister. First and foremost the objectors from the is not the case. An inspector require to judge all the relevant Bowring Road and Grove Mount, Ramsey - the letter which aspects of the planning application on which he is required we got from them is a matter of record and it is not only in to report and certainly he will consider any issues raised my hands, it is the hands of at least two Ramsey by parties to the inquiry. Just as important, he will also commissioners, and a member of the Ramsey pursue his own lines of inquiry whether or not they are Commissioners who sought to be accepted to make

Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Revote — Motion Lost TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T763

representations on their behalf has been denied a major issue of broad public concern not only to the people • representation. of Bride and other neighbouring parishes but to the people of Ramsey, and yet this promise of a public inquiry made Mr Walker: As an individual. in July, the precedence of public inquiry for other applications much smaller and less consequential than these Mr Quine: Now, do you... I should not ask him a has been brushed aside. So the public inquiry aspect of question because I know it is a fact. That is a fact, and the this is vitally important, and yet they are being denied that same applies for the people of Bride village. The people because we have not adopted the special planning have applied there, asked if they could make procedure. This matter of sufficient interest - I have already representations and they have been advised by the Crown dealt upon that, but the fact remains that unless you directly Office here that they do not have a right. The Chief Minister affected by it, you are pronounced not to have sufficient is shaking his head. interest and you are not going to be granted and have not been granted, representation. The Wright's Pit East inquiry Mr Walker: Absolutely. down in the Douglas town hall now, apart from the representatives and myself, has three members of the public Mr Quine: I can assure you, the people who are around that table. Three people of Bride have been allowed concerned in Bride assure me they have. However, they to sit at that table and make representations in respect of a could be excused if they had not seized the opportunity to huge development such as this with all the implications make representations because I brought with me today, for it. That is the measure of sufficient interest. And I can just to demonstrate how low-key this thing has been played, understand, I am sure, that this matter of sufficient interest the government notice. This is a major inquiry involving, featured prominently in the discussions which the Chief just leaving aside Wright's Pit North, 27 odd-acres, major Minister and the Council of Ministers had on this matter • implications. This appears in the paper amongst a list of because, quite frankly, the last thing that they wanted was all the other extensions to bungalows et cetera - no to have an open public discourse and evaluation of this differentiation made in the notice, but when you get to the issue. I can understand that, but that is not the public bottom of this you then have a little note that says that interest. The public interest dictates that they should be persons submitting applications in respect of X, Y, Z should allowed to have such an exercise and be allowed to express make their early representations to the Chief Secretary. their views. That, I think, underlines the starting point of the differences Now, the third substantial difference, of course, again between the ordinary planning procedure and the special is well demonstrated by this Wright's Pit East inquiry which planning procedure. So there is no doubt in my mind at all has now started. By UK precedent, if you go for a landfill that by the adoption of this procedure a number of persons you are required by law to have an environmental statement who have quite legitimate interests have been denied those produced. We have no law on that subject, but the fact is interests. there is no environmental assessment been produced in Again, before I come on to the substantive issues, let respect of Wright's Pit East and, had they gone for a special me also point out to the Chief Minister and to this hon. inquiry, that most certainly would have been produced. Court, this issue of allowing the public to express their So again the Council of Ministers is prepared to bury their views on these important issues was very much to the heads in the sand. They are prepared to accept that since forefront when Ballig tip was being considered and the 1976, when they first started to tip rubbish at the Ayres but minister was complaining that members of the public were 1989 when we got into the government exercise of tipping getting themselves organised and opposing and making at the Ayres, we have placed rubbish under some 60 acres, their representations publicly and there was a press release I think it is now; sixty acres have been affected and there published then, when they were trying to pacify the natives, are thousands of tons of festering rubbish underneath the • dated July 10th, where the point was made that they had Ayres. Yes, you might well shake your head but that has this long special inquiry procedure et cetera and they were been accepted at the inquiry. And against that backdrop allowed to make representations, and in this midst of that and the prospect of another 30-odd acres, we are going to it says, 'The public will then have a further opportunity to take a decision without an environmental assessment which comment in a public inquiry.' Why the change of heart? is the very minimum that would be required, I would When the problem was on his doorstep, when the problem suggest, to take a decision in those circumstances because was one of the public getting themselves organised and of the decision that the Chief Minister has taken to deny making proper representations, the way to pacify them was the access to a special inquiry procedure. to make this sort of statement, and now the issue is quite a The fourth point, again, is this question of Tynwald. different one. The official position now is their interest There is a great difference between an inspector being can be looked after perfect adequately within an ordinary commissioned to report on a planning application and planning procedure, and that is where I am going to start report back to the Chief Minister and an inspector being now and go into the substance of these matters once again. commissioned to carry out an inspection with full There is a world of difference between the ordinary and environmental assessment, with full representation and all the special planning procedure and I make no apology for the evidence being marshalled and the last word resting repeating it, because I do not accept what the Chief Minister with this hon. Court. There is no comparison between those has said. A public inquiry is entirely different from a closed two procedures, and the Chief Minister knows there is no inquiry to which the public is excluded, and here we have comparison between those two procedures, and that is what • Planning — Wright's Pit East Application — Failure to use Special Inquiry Procedure — Revote — Motion Lost T764 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 has motivated the decision for the Council of Ministers to who are paying for that absurd situation. Quite clearly, deny this application the right of scrutiny under that again, it is a matter of general importance to the Island: procedure. the impact on the environment, the impact on the houses • Section 1 of the 1981 Act, which lays down the criteria and the damage that has been done to the houses en route. for a special inquiry, as I outlined last week and as the Now, there are also the particular circumstances attached Chief Minister has touched upon again today, specifies two to this application. We have an application here in respect qualifying conditions - that is: it is of general importance of Wright's Pit East which, depending upon which proof to the Island. Now, let me again - and I apologise to of evidence you accept in respect of the government's case members for doing this but in the light of the Chief for Wright's Pit East, is between 75 and 90 metres from Minister's intervention I feel I must do so - this application the sea, and it is proposed that that should be used, a 27- unquestionably fits that criterion. We are talking of a large acre site, for tipping without any sea defences, without area designated as being of high landscape and scenic any lining, anything at all, just open tipping within that value; we are talking of an area which has been used distance from the sea. If we were to have any flooding, if contrary to that designation; many, many acres of it are we were to have a breakthrough or a break-in from the sea being used contrary to that designation, not for landfill - at high tides during the winter, that rubbish will be around no, no. I think we should make that point. This is not the Island and throughout the Irish Sea. Is that not a matter landfill. Landfill by definition infers that the waste is of general public interest? Quite clearly it is and it is absurd treated. This is tipping. This is not landfill. I would not to suggest that it is not. dress it up and call it landfill. This is tipping. Many acres Proper evaluation cannot otherwise be made. I truly of that area which has been designated have been believe that a proper evaluation cannot otherwise be made. encroached upon and we now have hundreds of thousands Let me just demonstrate it by this conflict with its own of tons of festering rubbish underneath it, and I would planning policies. Government has produced a set of suggest that, having regard to the designation of that area planning policies for this area. Take, for example, the north- and the public interest in the use of that area, that is most east sector development plan, and it is laid down in that certainly a matter of general importance to the Island. It statement numerous items of policy which in effect say could not be more clearly such. that this area has got to be preserved for the designated I think also it should be of island-wide concern against purpose, i.e. it is high landscape, scenic value, tourism, that backdrop that we have had what I would charitably recreation. These are their own policies, government's refer to as an incremental approach. What I mean by that policies. Now, they are seeking to set them aside because is this: we had Ballacallow 1. They came forward with an it is politically expedient to do so and to set them aside by application for Ballacallow 1, met with Bride way of an ordinary planning procedure. Now, I suggest to Commissioners and said, 'We're in a hole. This is a short- this hon. Court that we cannot have a proper evaluation of term matter, only for two years, kindly approve it.' I this application while that is the situation. It has to be attended a meeting at Bride Village with them when they removed from a situation where the last point of reference, made this appeal. Bride Commissioners had a certain the last decision, is one of the Council of Ministers and amount of sympathy but it went to an inquiry. That was the government, to one where this hon. Court has the last the first increment. Then we had Ballacallow 2, another say, and to me that is common sense. short-term expedient; 2A, another short-term - 'Please bale I anticipated, of course, that the Chief Minister would us out, we have a problem'; Ballacallow 3 - the same has be on his feet today making this heartfelt appeal to members applied. So what we have had, and now of course, but for to do an about-face - it is not a new experience for us in the grace of God and the good judgement of the planning this Court - but I would appeal to members to look at this inspector, we would have also have had 80 acres used for in an objective fashion, look at this objectively, look at the tipping by way of the Kerrowdhoo application. Now, we facts that I have set out to you which are absolutely factual, have in prospect another further 30 acres. So here we have, and ask yourself also: all these matters that the Chief I would suggest, another key feature which makes this quite Minister outlined today - why has he not come back to the clearly a matter of general import to the Island that we matter that I raised here last month when I pointed out have this massive incremental encroachment into an area precedent of the Poortown quarry where, with all the that is designated as being completely contrary to this use, inconsequential implications of that, the Council of so contrary that it is competing and in conflict with parts Ministers decided to have a special inquiry? Is that not a of this area which are already being developed for tourism precedent which you should bear in mind and ask yourself? and recreation. If this ordinary planning procedure is so adequate, so Again, as I pointed out last week, there is the matter of complete, so fair as the Chief Minister would have us the transport implications. We have transport converging believe - I do not believe it is - but if that is the case, how from all over the Island. We are taking four-fifths of the can he explain that situation? I gave you my explanation Island's rubbish. Four-fifths of the Island's rubbish is being for it last month and I know why it happened - because taken half-way across the Island to a site in the north, there were different people, different people in society contrary to any economic common sense in terms of the involved. transport costs and completely contrary to any obligations we may have for conserving energy and fuel and so on. Mrs Hannan: Oh, don't be silly! That surely is a matter of general public interest because it is the local authorities and the ratepayers around the Island (Interjections)

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Mr Quine: People who could not be brushed aside and categories of stockbrokers. The new periodical fees are that is the truth and that is why we are getting the moans directly related to the cost of supervision and regulation to from my left. That was the situation, but there is no mention be undertaken by the Financial Supervision Commission. about that, no mention about that at all. Therefore stockbrokers who are members of the Securities I believe that this case is cast iron, frankly, and only by and Futures Authority Limited are subject to a lesser fee arriving at a situation where one completely casts aside as financial monitoring will be conducted by the Securities the facts of the situation can you arrive at any conclusion and Futures Authority Limited, as lead regulator. All other than that this motion has been well and truly stockbrokers on the Island have been consulted on these substantiated, and I look forward to the vote here today fees and are content. I therefore beg to move item 6 on our because I am sure it is going to be quite educational. My agenda paper today. sources of information are as good as the next man's, and I am looking forward to the vote with great interest. I beg Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. to move, sir. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution The President: Hon. members, I will now put the set out at item 6 on the agenda paper. Will those in favour resolution set out at item 5 on the order paper. Will those please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes in favour please say aye; against, no. The noes have it. have it.

A division was called for. LICENSING FEES AND DUTIES ORDER The President: The division will be taken under 3.19 1996 — APPROVED and the Court will vote as one body. The President: Item 7, again the Minister for the Voting resulted as follows: Treasury.

For: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Corrin, Cretney, Duggan, Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: Braidwood, Bell, Kniveton, the Speaker, the Lord Bishop, Dr Mann, Messrs Radcliffe and Delaney - 13 That the Licensing Fees and Duties Order 1996 be approved. Against: Messrs Gilbey, Rodan, North, Walker, Cringle, Brown, May, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Corkill, Item number 7, the Licensing Fees and Duties Order Gelling, Lowey, Barton, Waft, Luft and 1996, increases with effect from 24th May 1996 the fees Mrs Christian - 16 and duties payable for liquor licence in respect of public houses, retail licences and residential licences broadly by The President: Hon. members, the resolution fails to the increase in the retail price index since the last review carry, with 13 votes having been cast in favour of the took place in May 1993. The order has also been revised resolution, 16 votes against the resolution. to take account of the fact that licences issued under the Licensing Act 1995 will be issued for a three-year period. I beg to move, Mr President. INVESTMENT BUSINESS (FEES)(NO.2) REGULATIONS 1996 — APPROVED Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President.

The President: We move on, hon. members, to item 6 The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, on the order paper and I call upon the minister for the set out at item 7 on the order paper. Will those in favour Treasury. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move:

That the Investment Business (Fees)(No.2) Regulations 1996 be approved. MUSIC AND DANCING FEES AND DUTIES ORDER 1996 — APPROVED These regulations repeal and replace existing regulations prescribing initial application fees and periodical fees The President: Item 8, the Minister for the Treasury. • payable by the applicants for the holders of investment business licences and the fees for entering a recognised Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: person on the register following the termination of the mutual assistance agreement between the Financial That the Music and Dancing Fees and Duties Order Supervision Commission and the Securities and Futures 1996 be approved. Authority Limited. These new regulations delete references to the fees payable by stockbrokers as recognised persons Item number 8, the Music and Dancing Fees and Duties and prescribe new initial and periodical fees for the various Order of 1996, increases with effect from 24th May 1996

Investment Business (Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 1996 — Approved Licensing Fees and Duties Order 1996 — Approved Music and Dancing Fees and Duties Order 1996 — Approved 1766 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 the fees and duties payable broadly by the increase in the NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (ISLE OF MAN) retail price index since the last review took place in May (CHARGES) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 1993. Mr President, I beg to move item No. 8 on our agenda 1996 —APPROVED paper. The President: Item 10, the Minister for Health and Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. Social Security.

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Mr May: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: set out at item 8 on the agenda paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes That the National Health Service (Isle of Man) have it. (Charges) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 be approved.

The purpose of these regulations for which approval is CINEMATOGRAPH (LICENCE FEES) ORDER sought is to increase the charge for non-exempt patients 1996 — APPROVED for National Health Service prescriptions. It is proposed that the present charge of £1.85 per item on prescription The President: Item 9, the Minister for the Treasury. forms be increased to £2.15 per item with effect from 1st June 1996. This compares with £5.50 per item in the United Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: Kingdom. The charges for specified appliances available through the hospital outpatient service will also increase That the Cinematograph (Licence Fees) Order 1996 from 1st June 1996 in accordance with the schedule to the be approved. regulation. Notwithstanding the latest increase, the department believes that the level of prescription charge Item number 9, the licence fees for premises to be used is such as not to deter those patients not exempt from for the purpose of the cinematograph exhibitions are charges who require medical attention. Indeed, the number provided for in the Cinematograph Act of 1977. This order of prescription items dispensed last year, at 824,000, was proposes to increase the fee for the granting or renewal of five per cent up on the previous year despite a similar 30 licences broadly, again, by the increase in the retail price pence increase last year. index, and they take effect from 24th May, 1996. Mr There is no intention on the part of my department to President, I beg to move item number 9. introduce any amendment to the present criteria for exemption from prescription charges, 82 per cent of all Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. prescriptions currently not involving a charge to the patient. The total drugs bill last year was some £8 million or about Mr Bell: Could I just ask one small question? Could £3 million more than in 1991. An income from these the Minister for the Treasury justify why we are actually charges will cover about three per cent of the drugs bill for continuing with the need for a licence for cinemas in the this year. Mr President, I beg to move, sir. first place? If this order comes in today - we only have two in the Isle of Man - we are actually going to generate Mrs Christian: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. an entire £2 increase in revenue this year as a result of this exercise. It is going to cost us vastly more to put this order Mr Rodan: Mr President, the proposal before us is for together to bring it to Tynwald to debate in the first place, a rise of 30 pence on the standard prescription charge from and I just wonder why we continue. I have raised this issue £1.85 to £2.15. This is a rise of five times the present rate before, but why are we continuing with these petty acts of of inflation. Could the minister tell us why the increase is red tape, really, which are actually costing us more money not in accordance with recent previous decisions of the to enact and collect than we are actually achieving at the Council of Ministers, which restricted increases in fees, charges, public housing rents and so on to around the end of it? I really do think the time has come we should annual rate of inflation? Since this is a significant increase, dispose of some of this pettiness, quite honestly, and save could the minister tell the Court whether the intention is to everyone a great deal of time and effort. copy the United Kingdom, which has quite remorselessly been pushing prescription charges ever upwards to the The President: Reply, sir. extent there that the charge is now £5.50? What we have in the UK is the quite disgraceful situation where patients Mr Gelling: Mr President, purely it is a provision in are actually asking pharmacists to tell them what is the the Act and therefore we are obliged to bring them forward least necessary item on a prescription form, which may at this time, but certainly the comments of the hon. member bear three, four or five items on it, each to be charged at have been taken on board. £5.50. As the minister says, it is quite unacceptable that patients' medical treatment should be compromised in this The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution way and that health should be endangered on purely set out at item 9 on the order paper. Will those in favour economic grounds, but we do seem here to be embarked please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes on exactly the same road, and can I ask what steps the have it. department are taking to monitor the counter-productive

Cinematograph (Licence Fees) Order 1996 — Approved National Health Service (Isle of Man) (Charges) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T767

economic effects on patients with these charges? The Island the United Kingdom have gone ahead, and they certainly 0 has always deliberately kept its charges below the United have not risen by what can be termed as being modest Kingdom. Is the intention now that charges should have a increases in recent years; they have gone ahead by leaps greater relationship to the ingredient cost of a prescription and bounds. The charge some five years ago was about a item, the cost of the drugs? If so, we have a long way to go pound an item in the Isle of Man and we are seeking now, yet as the average cost of drugs per individual prescription five years later, to raise it to £2.15 an item. It is far from item is now something like £8 to £9. trying to follow the United Kingdom in their charging I would like the minister, perhaps, also to comment on policy. What I would suggest is that the gap between the prepayment certificates. In the United Kingdom there charging policy in the United Kingdom and the charging has been for many years the facility of prepayment policy in the Isle of Man is in fact getting wider, because certificates for prescription charges. This is like a season where they have put up their charges by 50 pence per item, ticket, a flat charge for the period of either four months or ours have gone up by 30 pence, and consequently the gap one year. It would be in the patient's interest to have a has over the years progressively widened, so what I would prepayment certificate if he anticipates a high number of say to the hon. member is that we are not seeking to copy prescriptions over that year, and at the moment, with the the UK, but that unfortunately there is a need to have some charge being £5.50 and a certificate costing, I think, £72 control on the massive escalation within the drugs bill. As the patient will be better off if he receives more than 14 I said, last year the drugs bill had a cost to this Island of prescriptions a year by having this season ticket. Is there about £8 million. not increasingly a case to have such a season ticket in the Now, 82 per cent of the population, as Mr Corrin has Isle of Man? With charges now rising at a rate of five times identified, are exempt from charges, but there is the rate of inflation, is the department giving consideration nevertheless a need to have some regulation on the to the matter of these certificates? As has been made clear administration of drugs in the Island, and the reason for 0 by the minister, many patients are completely exempt from imposing this charging policy is to try and instil some charges altogether by virtue of age or chronic medical discipline into the charging policy that we have which will condition - over 82 per cent of the total, but there still try and limit - and it is a very, minor effort at trying to remain many people who regularly receive prescriptions limit - the escalation in the drugs bill, because if we look for whom a charge of £2.15 would, I believe, start to at the way in which it has increased over the last five years, increasingly deter them from seeking the medical treatment the drugs bill has gone from £4.8 million to almost £8 they need. million in a five-year period. Now, if that is related to the I am very sorry to see the way we appear to be going; in actual increase in charges, then that does not stack up. fact, I believe what we are doing is to tax patients who are The hon. member has referred to the average cost per sick. Would the minister not agree that, in effect, item of drugs, and the average cost per item of drugs is not prescription charges amount to a sickness tax, they bear a minor item at all nowadays - £9.71 per item gross is the no relation to the actual cost of the drugs and that there is average cost of drugs today. a very good case for abolishing them altogether? The hon. member, Mr Rodan, has referred to prepayment certificates. This is certainly something which Mr Corrin: Mr President, is it not ironic that in the the department, although it has not looked at it specifically very week when wide publicity is given to the fairness at the moment - I am quite sure that Mrs Christian as the that males should be allowed to travel on buses free at 60, member for health services would be more than happy to if this is right, we have a situation where 18 per cent of the sit down and discuss this particular aspect of the UK population in respect of health have to carry this burden charging policy and it is certainly something that we would and that burden has now been increased? I would support be more than happy to look at for the future. The hon. 0 the views expressed by the hon. member for Garff; one members referred to the charges in the United Kingdom really wonders where the fairness is, and is it not time that of £5.50 and a blanket charge of £70 which would cover it should be looked at and perhaps some other regulations somebody for an entire year's charges. It seems to be a or whatever, another way, should be operated, because way of approaching it, but again, when you have a charge obviously many people who are exempt could well afford of £5.50 an item, that is a considerable difference than the to pay, and many people who are paying in terms of many per-item charge here in the Island. of the younger working people in that age bracket are lower The hon. member, Mr Corrin, has asked, is it fair that paid and it is not easy for them to afford the charges that 18 per cent of the population must carry the burden? Well, are now being piled on? they do not carry the burden; what they do is contribute to the overall cost. They make some small contribution to try The President: May I call the minister to reply? and curtail some of the growth in the drugs bill, and unfortunately, whether we like it or not, it is a fact of life Mr May: Thank you, Mr President. The department that these things do grow, and they grow very rapidly in has in recent years made it clear that its strategy in relation this day and age and in increasing demands. I think the to prescription charges is to increase them by modest department's record over the years has been to impose amounts each year. The hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan, increases, but impose them... and I would accept what Mr has referred to the increases and the current cost of Rodan has said that the increase is above inflation, but prescription items in the United Kingdom of £5.50, and nevertheless it is an increase which can be described as we are all quite well aware of the way in which charges in being a modest increase and one which the department

• National Health Service (Isle of Man) (Charges) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 — Approved T768 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 does not feel will impose too much hardship on any schedule are the two schemes where the amount in total individual. that this hon. Court has authorised for the scheme has been So, Mr President, having said that, I would beg to move exceeded as opposed to the amount of expenditure voted that the resolution standing in my name be approved, sir. for the last financial year. The chief financial officer has, of course, to honour the contractual obligations and has The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution had to make the payments even though it was evident that standing at item 10 on the order paper. Will those in favour the schemes were going to become overspent. It is often please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. difficult for a department to forecast the value of payments to be made in a particular year on a scheme which overlaps A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: several years. Any over-payments arising may be the result of under-payments in previous years and insufficient In the Keys - moneys carried forward, or they may arise from continuing schemes with the provision for 1995-96 being overspent For: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, North, Walken Corrin, Cringle, because the work proceeded quicker than anticipated. In Brown, May, Crowe, Braidwood, Downie, Mrs Hannan, that case we would obviously look for a subsequent Messrs Groves, Corkin, Gelling and the Speaker - 16 reduction in the following year. So far as the eight ongoing schemes, which do not have Against: Messrs Rodan, Cretney and Duggan - 3 entry in column 7, are concerned, they have not exceeded the total amount approved for the schemes and are still The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the within the total vote, albeit not for the particular year 1995- House of Keys with 16 votes in favour and 3 against. 96. The two projects which have an entry in column 7 have exceeded both the 1995-96 capital vote and the total In the Council - amount authorised by this hon. Court for the scheme. So, therefore, Mr President, I beg to move the item standing For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Dr on our agenda paper at number 11 today. Mann, Messrs Radcliffe, Luft and Mrs Christian - 8 Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my Against: None remarks.

The President: In the Council, hon. members, 8 votes The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution have been cast in favour of the resolution, no votes against. standing at item 11 on the order paper. Will those in favour I declare the resolution carried. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

SUPPLEMENTARY AUTHORITIES — EXPENDITURE APPROVED VEHICLE DUTY (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1996 — APPROVED The President: Item 11, the Minister for the Treasury. The President: Item 12, the Minister for Transport. Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: Mr North: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: That Tynwald - That the Vehicle Duty (Amendment) Order 1996 be (i) authorises the Treasury to expend in respect of the approved. year ended 31st March 1996, from the Capital Transactions Account sums not exceeding £799,210 The order amends, from 1st July 1996, the Vehicle Duty in payment of the items set out in column 6 of the Order 1994, which introduced new vehicle duty rates from schedule hereto; and 1st July 1994. The revised rates of duty which are provided for in this amendment order apply to vehicle licences which (ii) approves the expenditure totalling £158,876 are taken out for a period commencing on or after 1st July detailed in column 7 of the schedule hereto. 1996. The provisions contained in the order were the subject of an announcement in the Budget statement of Mr President, hon. members, the need for these the March 1996 sitting of Tynwald. The amendments to supplementary authorities arises from those items of capital vehicle duties are to the effect that, for licences taken out expenditure where the amount spent last financial year from a date commencing on or after 1st July, there is to be exceeded the capital vote approved by this hon. Court. The no vehicle duty on certain classes of vehicles. The vehicle schedule accompanying this resolution as set out in today's licences will therefore be issued free of charge for veteran agenda paper shows in column 6 the excess capital vehicles over 25 years old not used for hire or reward, expenditure during the last financial year for which electric vehicles not used for hire or reward, and the approval is now necessary. Also shown in column 7 of the following kinds of vehicles which are categorised as

Supplementary Authorities — Expenditure Approved Vehicle Duty (Amendment) Order 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T769

`specialised machines': a mowing machine, a pedestrian hold an investment business licence for those firms of controlled vehicle up to 500 kilos, a land machine, a moped stockbrokers which have applied to the Financial and a steam vehicle. Annual licences shall be issued free Supervision Commission for such a licence by 31st March of charge for all those types of vehicles which I have 1996, and such application has yet to be determined by mentioned. the commission. This exemption allows firms of In addition, the category of farmer's goods vehicle is stockbrokers to continue to conduct investment business introduced. This is for a heavy goods vehicle which is the while their applications are being processed provided that property of a farmer. It is kept in his farm premises and is they comply with the regulatory code applicable to licensed used only for the agricultural purposes on the farm. stockbrokers. This exemption is required to provide the Taken as a whole, the revenue implications from the commission sufficient time to process the applications concessions in vehicle duty introduced by this order are without having a detrimental effect on the local adjudged to be a reduction in annual revenue of the stockbroking community. Mr President, I beg to move. magnitude of £18,000 per annum. This may be considered to be a fairer application of charges for vehicle duty in Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. respect of various types of vehicles which normally have relatively little or very little use on roads by virtue of their The President: Does any hon. member wish to speak types and uses. Mr President, I beg to move the resolution to the resolution? If not, I will put the resolution set out at standing in my name. item 13 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve my remarks. INVESTMENT BUSINESS (EXEMPTION, ETC.) Mr Cretney: Just to draw the analogy if I may, Mr (STOCKBROKERS) REGULATIONS President, that we see fit here to do away with a charge for 1996 —APPROVED veteran vehicles where the majority of veteran vehicles, I would suggest, are in the ownership of people who can The President: Item 14, the Minister for the Treasury. well afford to pay the duty, and yet we have just passed something to increase on prescription charges. I think the Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: government's overall priorities have got something wrong here. That the Investment Business (Exemption, Etc.) (Stockbrokers) Regulations 1996 be approved. Mr North: Mr President, I note the comments of the hon. member for South Douglas. I do not agree with him These regulations provide for an exemption from the that they are in the ownership of wealthy people. There provisions of section 2 of the Investment Business Acts of are something like, I think, 500 vehicles, if I remember 1991 to 1993 for self-employed persons who are contracted rightly, out of a total of something like 48,000 or 49,000. I to a specific firm of stockbrokers holding a category 5 beg to move, Mr President. investment business licence. It is the custom of the stockbroking industry to utilise the services of self- The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution employed individuals rather than employing such persons set out at item 12 on the order paper. Will those in favour direct in these circumstances. The self-employed person please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes would require an investment business licence in his own • have it. or her right. However, it is more than likely that the person would experience difficulty in satisfying the Financial Supervision Commission in such matters as financial resources and systems et cetera. Therefore, in order that INVESTMENT BUSINESS (EXEMPTION) such persons are not disadvantaged by their employment (RECOGNISED PERSONS) REGULATIONS status, these regulations provide an exemption from the 1996 —APPROVED requirement to hold such a licence provided that the licensed firm undertakes to accept regulatory responsibility The President: Item 13, the Minister for the Treasury. for the actions of these persons, and their activities will be restricted to servicing the clients of the stockbroking firm. Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: Mr President, I beg to move.

That the Investment Business (Exemption) Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. (Recognised Persons) Regulations 1996 be approved. The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, These regulations provide for a temporary exemption standing at item 14 on the order paper. Will those in favour from the provisions of section 2 of the Investment Business please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Acts of 1991 to 1993, in other words the requirement to have it.

Investment Business (Exemption) (Recognised Persons) Regulations 1996 — Approved • Investment Business (Exemption, Etc.) (Stockbrokers) Regulations 1996 — Approved T770 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

INVESTMENT BUSINESS (EXEMPTION) categories 1 to 4 are defined, to the Financial Supervision (MISCELLANEOUS) REGULATIONS Commission Stockbrokers Regulatory Code, where 1996 — APPROVED category 5 licence holders are defined. Mr President, I beg to move. The President: Item 15, the Minister for the Treasury. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution That the Investment Business (Exemption) set out at item 16 on the order paper. Will those in favour (Miscellaneous) Regulations 1996 be approved. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. These regulations, which repeal and replace existing regulations, contain two amendments. Firstly, as the mutual assistance agreement between the FINANCIAL SUPERVISION COMMISSION Financial Supervision Commission and the Securities and (STOCKBROKERS) REGULATORY Futures Authority Limited has been terminated with effect CODE — APPROVED from 31st March 1996 and therefore stockbrokers on the Island are required to be licensed under section 3 of the The President: Item 17, sir. Investment Business Acts of 1991 to 1993, references to stockbrokers and regulation agreements have therefore Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: been deleted. Secondly, as the result of approaches made to the FSC That the Financial Supervision Commission by those it regulates, the definition of 'nominee company' (Stockbrokers) Regulatory Code be approved. as an exempt person has been extended to cover nominee companies in the same group as a licensed or authorised This regulatory code, which is based on the Securities institution rather than being a wholly owned subsidiary of and Futures Authority Limited rule book, contains all a licensed or authorised institution. In addition, the regulatory codes applicable to stockbrokers. This is under conditions have been extended to permit the exempt person the mutual assistance agreement between the Financial to provide services to clients of the group rather than its Supervision Commission and the Securities and Futures immediate parent only. I beg to move. Authority. All stockbrokers on the Island were subject to, and therefore again familiar with, the Securities and Futures Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. Authority's rule book. Although this mutual assistance agreement was terminated by the Securities and Futures The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Authority with effect from 31st March 1996, there are still standing at item 15 on the order paper. Will those in favour a number of stockbrokers on the Island who are members please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes of the Securities and Futures Authority and who must have it. comply with their rule book. In order to avoid different standards of regulation, the Financial Supervision Commission has sought to provide a specific regulatory INVESTMENT BUSINESS (CLIENTS' MONEY) code for stockbrokers which is not dissimilar to the rules REGULATIONS 1996 —APPROVED of the Securities and Futures Authority. This regulatory code has been the subject of consultation with the The President: Item 16, sir. stockbrokers on the Island and the result of which was generally an acceptance of the code. I beg to move. Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. That the Investment Business (Clients' Money) Regulations 1996 be approved. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 17 on the order paper. Will those in favour These regulations, which repeal and replace existing please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes regulations, declare the clients' money held by the holders have it. of investment business licences are held on trust and provide for the distribution of clients' moneys in the event of a failure of a licence holder or the default of a bank FINANCIAL SUPERVISION COMMISSION where clients' moneys are held. These new regulations (STOCKBROKERS) (AMENDMENT) extend this declaration to holders of category 5 investment REGULATORY CODE — APPROVED business licences - for example, stockbrokers - by extending the definition of 'the code', which currently The President: Item 18, the Minister for the Treasury. refers to the Financial Supervision Commission Financial Resources and Reporting Regulatory Code, where Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move:

Investment Business (Exemption) (Miscellaneous) Regulations 1996 — Approved Investment Business (Clients' Money) Regulations 1996 — Approved Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) Regulatory Code — Approved Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) (Amendment) Regulatory Code — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T771

That the Financial Supervision Commission Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: (Stockbrokers) (Amendment) Regulatory Code 1996 be approved. That the VAT (Treatment of Transactions) (Trading Stamps) Order 1996 be approved. This regulatory code amends the application of the seven existing regulatory codes applicable to holders of Quite a change to come to VAT! The purpose of this investment business licences issued under section 3 of the order is to revoke the Value Added Tax (Treatment of Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 to disapply such Transactions) (No. 2) Order of 1973, which removed from regulatory codes from holders of category 5 investment the scope of value added tax certain supplies of trading licences. Stockbrokers holding a category 5 investment stamps. The effect of this order, when taken with the business licence will be subject to a specific regulatory complementary Value Added Tax (Trading Stamps) code and the Financial Supervision Commission Regulations 1996 is to amend the treatment for value added (Stockbrokers) Regulatory Code, which covers all matters tax of trading stamps from being a special case subject to covered by the existing seven regulatory codes such as complex rules to being like that for any other form of financial resources, conduct of business, clients' money discount voucher. I beg to move item number 20 on our and investments. I beg to move. agenda paper today.

Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President.

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution set out at item 18 on the order paper. Will those in favour set out at item 20 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. have it.

INVESTMENT BUSINESS (INDEMNITY) VAT (TRADING STAMPS) REGULATIONS (DESIGNATED RECOGNISED REGULATORS) 1996 —APPROVED ORDER 1996 — APPROVED The President: Item 21, the Minister for the Treasury. The President: Item 19, the Minister for the Treasury.

Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move:

That the Investment Business (Indemnity) That the VAT (Trading Stamps) Regulations 1996 (Designated Recognised Regulators) Order 1996 be be approved. approved. The purpose of this order is to revoke with effect from This particular order, which repeals and replaces the 1st June 1996 part 10 of the Value Added Tax Regulations existing order, deletes the Securities and Futures Authority 1996. The five regulations contained within that part cover Limited from the schedule of those persons designated for the special provisions relating to trading stamps. I beg to the purposes of section 15A of the Investment Business move item number 21 on our agenda paper today. Acts of 1991 to 1993. This action is as a result of the termination of the mutual assistance agreement between Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. the FSC and the Securities and Futures Authority Limited which came into effect on 31st March. From this date the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Securities and Futures Authority Limited is no longer a standing at item 21 on the order paper. Will those in favour recognised regulator and therefore not entitled to the please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes indemnity offered by this section. I beg to move. have it.

Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. AIR PASSENGER DUTY (PRESCRIBED RATES The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution OF INTEREST) (AMENDMENT) (APPLICATION) standing at item 19 on the order paper. Will those in favour ORDER 1996 — APPROVED please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The President: Item 22, the Minister for the Treasury.

Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: VAT (TREATMENT OF TRANSACTIONS) (TRADING STAMPS) ORDER 1996 — APPROVED That the Air Passenger Duty (Prescribed Rates of Interest) (Amendment) (Application) Order 1996 be The President: Item 20, the Minister for the Treasury. approved.

Investment Business (Indemnity) (Designated Recognised Regulators) Order 1996 — Approved VAT (Treatment of Transactions) (Trading Stamps) Order 1996 — Approved VAT (Trading Stamps) Regulations 1996 — Approved Air Passenger Duty (Prescribed Rates of Interest) (Amendment) (Application) Order 1996 — Approved T772 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

The purpose of this order is to increase the rate of interest I notice also in the regulations that it is very sensible that may be charged on assessments of air passenger duty that those people employed should also be acquainted with from 51/2 per cent to 61/4 per cent per annum with effect the regulations and the way in which the regulations should from 6th February 1996. This change has the effect of be put into effect. Is the department planning to actually maintaining Island law and procedures on air passenger ensure that people working in these industries do have the duty. There are no resource implications arising from this information to fulfil the regulations, and would it be order and I beg to move item number 22 on our agenda possible for the department to ensure that there is a marking paper. of the product so that, for instance, the eggs produced in flocks accommodated in the new accommodation should Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. actually be identified so the consumer is aware of the way in which their product is being produced? The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Finally, and most important of all, has the department set out at item 22 on the order paper. Will those in favour the resources to actually police the regulations? In the last please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes few years several inquiries have been made of the have it. department as to how many actual producers are using intensive methods and on each occasion the reply from the department - I know it was before your time, minister WELFARE OF LIVESTOCK REGULATIONS - was that the department did not know, so I think it is very 1996 — APPROVED important first of all that we know the size of the problem and that we actually try to improve the support measures The President: Item 23, the Minister for Agriculture, to ensure that the producers reach the standards which we Fisheries and Forestry. are now asking. And please, at some point can we report that we can have a hundred per cent of producers producing Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I beg to move: to these standards before the year 2004? This is quite appalling, really. I know that it is difficult to impose a That the Welfare of Livestock Regulations 1996 be change but I am sure there has been plenty of time for approved. these changes to have been made.

The situation with the welfare of animals in intensive Mr Rodan: Mr President, I too would welcome the systems is that there have been no regulations except for regulations inasmuch as they govern the welfare of calves calves. That is not a satisfactory situation, neither does it and insofar as they discourage the production of white veal. comply with our obligations under the Council of Europe To meat consumers it is perhaps not widely appreciated, Convention on Animals Kept for Farming Purposes. Hon. members will be aware that hens and pigs as well as calves the dietary significance to animals in the producing of white may also be reared in intensive systems. These regulations veal when the animal is denied iron, deficiency of which, set out welfare standards for those animals. There are of course, can lead to clinical anaemia and they are denied minimum standards of accommodation, including the roughage, which causes digestive problems because the amount of space required per animal, minimum feeding rumen does not properly develop. The production of pink arrangements and living accommodation. In addition to veal on the other hand, which is encouraged by these the specified requirements for hens, calves and pigs, there regulations as opposed to white veal, should be equally is a general section for other livestock. Livestock will acceptable from the consumer point of view of taste, but therefore be given protection under these regulations. I could I ask the minister whether guidance will be given to beg to move. producers and what is meant in the regulations by sufficient iron and sufficient quantity to maintain them in good Mr Luft: I beg, Mr President, to second and reserve health? my remarks. As far as roughage is concerned, the regulations are quite precise in the requirement for roughage when they Dr Mann: Mr President, I certainly welcome these state 100 to 200 grammes daily, which almost accords with regulations, but in welcoming them and supporting them I the standards that are asked for by Compassion in World am concerned that they will not become effective until the Farming, that particular organisation, which says that for year 2004, and I would like to ask one or two questions: calves two to 15 weeks of age there should be 200 grammes first of all, when was the European convention approved of roughage daily and 500 grammes daily thereafter, but and what has been the gap between the convention being that particular organisation also states that the iron approved in Europe and its application here? Secondly, do supplement should be 7.5 millimoles per litre, for which we know the true size of the problem? That is, do we know there is not a specific figure in these regulations. Is the how many producers are using the old-style cages, for minister satisfied that the regulations are specific enough instance, in poultry production and therefore how many in terms of iron and roughage supplement to be of real need to be replaced, and what type of support is the practical value to producers, and what additional guidance department willing to give to update these at a faster rate would her department give to producers to ensure that the than the next eight years? objective of cruelty re veal production is met?

Welfare of Livestock Regulations 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T773

The President: Reply, minister? SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION (APPLICATION) (NO. 3) ORDER Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I obviously 1996 —APPROVED welcome the comments of both the Member of the Legislative Council and the member for Garff with regard The President: Item 24, the Minister for Health and to these regulations and I believe that they should be Social Security. welcomed. The question was made, I think, by both members with regard to the lead-in time. This in actual Mr May: Mr President, I beg to move: fact is to allow changes to happen. When the department consulted, and even prior to consultation, certain people That the Social Security Legislation (Application) had contacted the department to find out when the time (No. 3) Order 1996 be approved. limit would be and it was something that producers were expecting. However, with some changes - the regulations This order applies to the Island the relevant United say that there will be changes but they are not all 2004; Kingdom legislation concerned with the changes in some are 1998, some are 1999, 2000 and 2004, and it is national insurance contribution liabilities which took effect basically to allow the industry to adapt and also to stop the from April 1996. Hon. members will be aware that each dumping of equipment here that can no longer be used in year the UK Department of Social Security obtains approval for the changes in contribution liabilities by means other European states so that our standards for caring for of an order submitted to Parliament, and the relevant parts animals are less than anywhere else. of that order are then applied to the Island by means of an With regard to the convention, I can find out for the application order. As has happened in previous years, the member but I do not have that information and I have not UK order was not made in sufficient time for it to be applied inquired of that particular date. to the Island prior to the date the changes were due to take The question was raised about poultry producers. My effect so, as a result of the standing authority given to the information is that there are seven intensive poultry department under the terms of a declaratory resolution producers. There will not be department support unless it approved by the Court in October 1993, these changes have comes under a particular scheme in the department where been implemented administratively in the meantime. The it can be supported. Codes under the regulations will be appropriate legislation is now being submitted for approval, introduced and, yes, we will be issuing the codes for and for this and the following items, information has been employees and also on how producers should be treating circulated to hon. members, and I beg to move. animals intensively. With regard to making the public aware, yes, there are Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. areas where the public can be made aware that something is not intensively reared, but it is not something the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution department at this stage is involved with, because obviously set out at item 24 on the order paper. Will those in favour we have just had the regulations. But yes, the department please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes can police the regulations. have it. With regard to the calves being denied iron, members will realise that veal is not produced in Man. I would welcome pink or rosé veal. There are a certain number of SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION customers who would like to be able to purchase veal but (APPLICATION) (NO. 4) ORDER 0 to date there is not anyone who is producing it. With regard 1996 —APPROVED to the amount of iron, yes, I would hope that under the regulations the iron levels will be such but that, I think, The President: Item 25, the Minister for Health and will be in the codes of practice that will be issued. Social Security. As I said in my opening speech, I welcome this move forward with regard to animal welfare and the way that Mr May: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: animals are treated, not only intensively but also when they are housed for various times of the year and also the That the Social Security Legislation (Application) treatment of pigs during farrowing and there are all sorts (No. 4) Order 1996 be approved. of other areas within these regulations which I believe should be welcomed by the whole of Tynwald Court and I This order is concerned with the application to the Island would hope that members will support it. Thank you, of United Kingdom legislation relating to the annual Eaghtyrane, I beg to move. uprating of social security benefits subject to the reciprocal agreement between the Island and the United Kingdom. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution The uprating took effect from April 1996 and again has standing at item 23 on the order paper. Will those in favour been applied administratively, and I beg to move. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 3) Order 1996 — Approved Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 4) Order 1996 — Approved T774 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution ACCESS TO HEALTH RECORDS AND REPORTS set out at item 25 on the order paper. Will those in favour (HEALTH PROFESSIONALS) REGULATIONS please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes 1996 —APPROVED have it. The President: Item 28.

PENSION SCHEMES LEGISLATION Mr May: I beg to move: (APPLICATION) (NO. 2) ORDER 1996 — APPROVED That the Access to Health Records and Reports (Health Professionals) Regulations 1996 be approved. The President: Item 26, the Minister for Health and Social Security. The purpose of the regulations in this item is to amend the narrow list of those persons defined as being a health Mr May: I beg to move: professional for the purposes of the Access to Health Records and Reports Act 1993 and to bring the list more That the Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) into line with the much broader United Kingdom definition (No. 2) Order 1996 be approved. as referred to in the Access to Health Records Act of 1990. Whilst the United Kingdom definition includes a wide Item 26, Mr President, applies to the Island five statutory range of professions, the Isle of Man definition as contained instruments of Parliament containing orders dealing with in section 10 of the 1993 Act presently relates solely to occupational and personal pensions. It will be seen that registered medical practitioners, registered dentists, nurses the instruments being applied are concerned in ensuring and midwives. This difference in definition is due to the that specific elements of occupational and personal fact that, unlike the United Kingdom law, Manx law only pensions are increased annually. Further details have been recognises the status of doctors, dentists, nurses and circulated, and I beg to move. midwives. Consequently, from 1st June 1996 any health record made by or on behalf of health professionals who Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. fall within the scope of the relevant definitions contained within schedule 2 of the regulations can be accessed in The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution accordance with the provisions of the Access to Health set out at item 26 on the order paper. Will those in favour Records and Reports Act 1993. The health records of please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes registered medical practitioners, dentists, nurses and have it. midwives have been accessible since 1994, the date that the 1993 Act came into operation. I beg to move.

Mrs Christian: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. SOCIAL FUND MATERNITY AND FUNERAL EXPENSES (GENERAL) (ISLE OF MAN) Mr Delaney: Mr President, could the minister - if he AMENDMENT REGULATIONS does not know the answer he could tell me at some later 1996 — APPROVED time but I have been asked to ask this today - will this also give access to persons who were employed by Her The President: Item 27, sir. Majesty's services and who were screened or given medical treatment by those professionals in those services? Have Mr May: I beg to move: they got access to those records, because there is some ambiguity in this area? That the Social Fund Maternity and Funeral Expenses (General) (Isle of Man) Amendment Regulations Mr Rodan: Mr President, I would certainly welcome 1996 be approved. these new regulations brought by the minister, but could I just ask the minister if he would give an assurance that Item 27, Mr President, provides under certain access to health records by this new group of health circumstances help for people who cannot afford to pay professionals will take into account the important doctor/ for a funeral and help the people who cannot afford to buy patient relationship and information would not be used in things for a new baby. These amendment regulations make a way which would compromise that relationship? It would a number of changes to the principal regulations and details be important that this new category of health professional have been circulated. I beg to move. obtains the consent of the patient's GP before discussing with that GP's patient what is privileged information. Can Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. I ask him, does the coming into operation of these regulations on 1st June mean that before 1st June no health The President: I will put the resolution standing at item visitor, for example, would have had access to confidential 27 on the order paper, hon. members. Will those in favour records without a GP's consent for the purpose of please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes undertaking, for example, research? And could he also have it. confirm that it would be improper and contrary to

Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order 1996 — Approved Social Fund Maternity and Funeral Expenses (General) (Isle of Man) Amendment Regulations 1996 — Approved Access to Health Records and Reports (Health Professionals) Regulations 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 1175

regulations for a health visitor to discuss with a patient LICENSING REGULATIONS 1996 — APPROVED 0 medical information obtained from access to records without the GP's knowledge? The President: Item 29, the Minister for Home Affairs. The President: May I call on the minister to reply? Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: Mr May: Mr President, the purpose of these regulations That the Licensing Regulations 1996 be approved. essentially is to enable the patient to have access to the records that are held on his behalf by a professional, not The Licensing Regulations 1996 need to be in place for another professional to access the records of a colleague prior to the Licensing Act of 1995 coming into force. Hon. professional about a third party individual. I think the hon. members will be aware that several of the items on this member Mr Rodan may be somewhat confused in this agenda relate to that Act. This item deals with regulations particular aspect, and I have no doubt that professionals that specify standard conditions that will apply to licences will, given their status and given the occupation that they or certain classes of licence. They give power to the hold, always carry out their functions and their Licensing Court to grant extensions of permitted hours in responsibilities under this particular Act and any other Act licensed premises and they require certain notices to be in a responsible and efficient manner. So I would not have displayed at licensed premises. Finally, they provide for thought that there would be any problem in that particular extensions of hours at registered clubs. regard, and I am quite sure that the doctor/patient When the 1995 Act was in the form of a Bill it was relationship or the patient's relationship with any other accepted that there was a need to change the approach to professional within the scope of health services will still licensing law from that in the existing legislation, the 1961 O be respected and protected. Act. Under that Act and its amending legislation, the issues In respect of the hon. member Mr Delaney's comment, now covered under these regulations were set out in I am not quite too sure exactly what he means. He seemed primary legislation. This meant that any change to reflect to be referring to medical services provided by the armed changing circumstances or attitudes could not be readily forces. Now, these regulations purely and simply affect implemented. The new Act, therefore, provides for these medical records held within the Isle of Man, and I would regulations, which are introduced by order subject to this make that point clear. Court's approval and can similarly be altered by this route. Prior to bringing these regulations before the Court, the Mr Delaney: But they need that information to claim a department entered into a period of consultation. Copies pension. of draft regulations were made available to all registered clubs, the breweries, Licensed Victuallers' Association, Mr May: This affects health professionals within the Chamber of Commerce, nightclub owners, the Manx Island. If access is required to records held outwith the Hospitality Association, police and High Bailiff's office. Isle of Man, then of course application would be made Public notices were placed in the local press inviting under the terms of the United Kingdom Act and I think comment. In total 17 replies were received. The majority that is the case. So I hope that answers the hon. member's of comment made was in relation to the provisions of the query. I beg to move. Act; in addition comment was passed on the draft Licensing Court rules which were circulated for consultation at the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution same time and which have been laid before this hon. Court standing at item 28 on the order paper. Will those in favour in their final form at this sitting. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Some of the comment passed on the regulations sought have it. clarification on the precise meaning or intent of the regulations. A meeting between the Licensed Victuallers' Association and a member of staff of my department was useful and a welcome opportunity to provide the ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL ASSENT clarification. I understand that a similar meeting with the Licensed Victuallers' Association and staff of the High The President: Now, hon. members, I have to announce Bailiff's office was useful in providing practical guidance that Royal Assent has been given to the Purpose Trusts on the working of this new Act. In addition, some of the Act of 1996, the Territorial Sea (Rights to Coal) Act of suggestions contained within the written comments 1996, the Performers' Protection Act of 1996, the Gaming, received have been incorporated within the final form of Betting and Lotteries (Amendment) Act of 1996 and the the regulations before hon. members today. It is the nature Non-Resident Traders and Chapmen (Amendment) Act of of licensing law, however, that it is not possible to please 1996 this day. all of the people all of the time, and the department did not Hon. members, I think it appropriate now to take a break, consider all of the suggestions either practical or desirable. and we will resume at five minutes to five by the Court I am satisfied, however, that the regulations before us today clock. Thank you, hon. members. are practical and workable. I am sure that with the passage of time and in the light of practical experience some The Court adjourned at 4.33 p.m. amendments will suggest themselves. These will be

0 Announcement of Royal Assent Licensing Regulations 1996 — Approved T776 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 considered and, if they have merit, brought before this hon. groups in the licensed premises referred to, rightly so, by Court for approval. I beg to move, Mr President. the hon. member.

Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Mr Bell: Mr President, I think one of the most interesting observations which you made this morning in Mr Downie: Mr President, hon. members, I would just your words of wisdom when you addressed us was your like to start by drawing the members' attention to the description of what took place when you were first elected standard conditions of licence, part 2, and it is a condition 50 years ago: in the first 10 years when we established a that is applicable to all on-licences. I will just read it for National Health Service, 2,000 houses were built and a you: `Every on-licence is subject to the following great deal of very dynamic activity took place. I am just conditions - that the holder of the licence shall cause a grateful that the present regime was not in position 50 years sufficient supply of fresh drinking water to be available ago or we would still be waiting for the establishment of free of charge on request during meals in any part or parts the National Health Service. It is now 18 months or of the premises set apart for the service of meals.' And thereabouts since the Licensing Act went through the then it goes on to say, `...that the holder of the licence shall House of Keys. If it takes 18 months to introduce have available for sale, at reasonable prices, beverages regulations of this nature into the House, what chance have other than liquor for consumption on the premises.' I am we got of any dynamic approach within government for reliably informed, hon. members, that over the last two to the more serious matters that we are expected to deal with? three years the sale of beverages other than liquor being The common view in relation to this particular Act and consumed on licensed premises has risen somewhere in its regulations is that it is going to extend drinking hours the region of 45 to 50 per cent. We in the Isle of Man have at the weekend. That certainly is one aspect of it, but it a fairly tight drink-driving regime now, we do our best to also, when it is fully enacted, will give much tighter curb drink-driving, and I am sure we have all experienced controls over licensees and give the authorities more it: you go into a licensed premises now, somebody in the powers to either suspend or withdraw licences altogether party will be driving or responsible for the car, and here from those licensees who persistently offend not only the he is, paying probably more for a soft drink than he would drinking aspect of the laws but also in relation to drugs on be if he was purchasing liquor. the premises, and these measures have to be welcomed by Now, I would ask hon. members, if what we are being everyone who wants to see a more orderly licensing trade asked to consider here has any sort of validity to it, 'that on the Island. the holder of the licence shall have available for sale, at I personally, though, have to repeat my view that I do reasonable prices, beverages other than liquor for not believe there is any logic whatsoever in the introduction consumption on the premises', I think it is high time that of licensing hours or restricting them to any particular time there were soft drinks available at these reasonable prices. or period. It is the control of the premises and the I would ask the minister that during his discussions with management of the premises which is the key to the whole the brewery and with the Licensed Victuallers'Association disciplining of the industry. It has got nothing to do with and other organisations to express his concern that over the length of time the premises are open, and it is a great the last few years it is not unusual to go and buy a small pity that this hon. Court has not sought this particular bottle of Perrier water - £1.50, or a can of Coke - £1.25; opportunity to take a more mature approach to licensing the products are available in other places at - what? - 30p. which would give us possibly the best of all worlds at the We are looking at 500 to 600 per cent mark-up. end of the day with better regulation, a better quality of Hon. members, I think as far as these Licensing Act person, better standard of management working within the regulations go, this section here should be adhered to and industry and more controls over the more unruly elements I would like to think that at some time in the future we that frequent these places. So I regret that. I think it is a could lay the law down to the licensing trade and say, very sad situation and an opportunity which has been lost `Look, it is quite clear you are to provide beverages other and undoubtedly will remain lost for a number of years to than liquor at reasonable prices'. Thank you, Mr President. come until licensing inevitably comes round for further debate in the future. Mr Delaney: Just a point on that, Mr President. The The one area, though, which I do have some concern hon. member has raised something I have raised in this with - and I accept it is probably not a popular position to Court on at least two occasions and I raised on a committee take at the moment, but I do believe the integrity of that I had the privilege at the time to be a member of. The government is at stake on this one - relates to regulation point that the member has not pointed out is that most of 11, which relates to the three-hour extension beyond normal the licensees in the Isle of Man are working under the closing time for large entertainment premises. Now, this breweries and they are told what to charge, and I totally came in in, I think it was, 1986 or 1987 - I just forget now agree with him in relation to non-alcoholic drinks, which when the last Licensing (Amendment) Bill came through do not attract duty, but unfortunately, while they are told - which was essentially designed to encourage, really, a what to charge, there is very little, on past records, that we better quality of late night entertainment on the Island. The will ever do to try and ensure that those people who wish amendment allowed for three hours beyond the 11 o'clock to remain sober, to drive others home from licensed recognised closing at that time, which was 2 o'clock premises, will be able to obtain these non-alcoholic drinks closing. Now, a number of entrepreneurs, club owners or at a reasonable price because of the monopolies of the developers came on the scene attracted by that opportunity

Licensing Regulations 1996 -- Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T777

and have invested several million pounds into the nightclub We should also, although it is probably asking too much 0 scene on the Isle of Man. It has not been a cheap approach again at this stage, really seriously take a more mature at all by these people; they have taken a very professional look at how we handle licensing matters on the Isle of approach and have invested in the latest technology and Man and look further afield to see how they are handled the latest sound systems and various other essentials for a elsewhere. There was an example only recently in Leeds, successful club. That investment was dependent on their for example, which is using now a six o'clock licence ability, the club's ability, to earn a profit during those three simply to stimulate inner-city development, and it is part hours beyond the normal pub hours. What we are doing of the planning procedure within Leeds to actually promote now by approving these regulations today is saying to them, this late night activity to stimulate a regeneration in the `Sorry, boys, you have invested your millions of pounds, centre of town. Now, that may be an extreme case, but it is but we are now reneging on the deal, we are going back to working effectively in Leeds. It has generated a lot of giving you two hours beyond the pub hours, not three investment in the centre of town already. That may not hours.' You are cutting their ability to earn a profit by a work for Douglas, but all I am asking - I would like to third. make a plea now - is that we do, in future when we are Now, I know it is easy to have an emotional response to discussing licensing matters, take a broader, more mature this and say, 'Oh, well, there has been trouble on the approach to the options which exist to regulate the licensing promenade, you have got to cut back the hours.' We need trade and not simply have a knee-jerk reaction every time to look beyond this. It is the integrity of government and there is a problem outside a pub or outside a club. It is a our relationship as government with potential investors in very short-sighted and possibly dangerous step for us to the Isle of Man and our ability to stand by agreements, in take, always to be wanting to limit, to draw back and to effect, which have been made prior to an investment taking place even greater restrictions on people. It is not going to place. Forget about the emotion for a minute and keep your work in our long-term benefit and it is not going to, in any 0 eye on the integrity of this. There is a real danger - and it way, solve the problem on the streets which I am sure we has happened already a few years ago when this first came all want to see resolved. in - that if the profitability of the existing clubs is reduced substantially, as it may well be by reducing their ability to Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I am rather concerned to hear open later and reducing their ability to compete with the the remarks of the last hon. member (Some Members: ordinary pubs, you may well find that, far from improving Hear, hear). I feel very strongly that a person's or a the situation on the promenade, it is going to make things government's or anybody's word should be their bond, and very much worse because the standard of operation of some I have actually written to the Chief Minister in other of these clubs is going to drop in an effort to try and bring connections expressing this view. Therefore I am concerned in more people simply to keep their profitability up. This that for the second time the hon. member for Ramsey has did happen in the early days when this licence first came alleged that there was a clear understanding that these clubs in when too many clubs got licences, everybody was to which he has referred should always have a time battling for a limited level of business, standards dropped differential in their opening, and I would ask that the and there was a fair increase, anyway, in the number of Minister for Home Affairs should look into this and drink-related incidents around those clubs. In spite of what circulate hon. members with a definitive answer to this, has happened, or appears to be happening through the press, because I very much doubt myself whether there was ever on the promenade by and large the better clubs have such an understanding. At the time they were granted tightened up their standard of management and they are licences, those licences were for a longer period, but I do now operating probably to the best of their ability to control not believe there was ever any implied understanding that things themselves. But financial constraints may well force there would always be the differential. 0 them to reduce those standards still further, and that is going Now, the hon. member behind me says there has been a to contribute to a worsening of the problem, not improving change in legislation, but, as I remember it for a great many the situation. years, it has been known that the Licensing Acts were being So I would ask hon. members, while I have no doubt looked at and that they may be altered. Indeed, I think I that this will go through today, just to bear in mind that remember various committees which considered the increasing restrictions do not necessarily mean that you Licensing Acts and changes in them, so I would have are going to improve the problem. There is a real possibility thought that people who are sophisticated enough to run you are going to make the problem worse and also you are late night establishments should know perfectly well that going to lose the confidence and faith of the very people there might be changes in the licensing laws which could we have been looking for over the years to invest in the either help them or might be to their detriment. tourist industry and beyond that in the Isle of Man. But I do think that, as this accusation has been made Government integrity is important, it is something we now for the second time in the legislative chamber, the should not play around with lightly. You, every one of us, matter should be dealt with authoritatively by someone have induced these people to invest their millions in the looking up the terms of their licences; when they were business; we are now saying, 'Sorry, we are now going to granted; what the conditions were then; and whether there change the game plan altogether and we are going to reduce was any possible suggestion that they should always have your ability to earn a profit,' and I think that is wrong and this differential. If there is not any such understanding - it is a dangerous precedent that government should be and I personally do not think there is - I do not believe that setting. we should extend their licences.

0 Licensing Regulations 1996 — Approved T778 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

Earlier today we were talking about the problems of had another hour as well. But this was after full and detailed having enough police et cetera, and there is absolutely no debate. I do not think we could have any fuller and more doubt that if you extend the licensing hours further into detailed debate of a piece of legislation than we have had the small hours of the morning you will need yet more for a long time in the House of Keys, and certainly it went police, because it is at those times that a great strain is put to Legislative Council and was looked at in a similar sort on the police force. Those of us who have been fortunate of way. But I certainly welcome the consultation and I enough to be out with the police going round with them to acknowledge the work that the Department of Home see what happens in Douglas at that time in the morning Affairs has put into this piece of legislation. It takes a long will know very well the number of officers and vehicles time to get people to respond to consultation and to put a they have to have on the streets when these late night document like this together, so I certainly welcome that. licensed premises are emptying out and their licence time I do think that it should be drawn to licensees' attention, is coming to an end, and there is no doubt at all that if we and certain people have said that the breweries have were to extend those times, you would need more brought this legislation to tenants and people holding policemen on duty later in the morning. Therefore I would licences, but if they do, as the member for Douglas South oppose it. But I very much hope that this repeated statement is suggesting, allow young people in pubs - because that that some kind of commitment has been made can be once age has now been increased from 15 with this legislation and for all authoritatively laid to rest. to 16 - and if there is a problem with the licensing with under-age drinking at 18, then that licence can be removed, Mr Duggan: Mr President, I too am concerned, like and I would suggest that the point made by Mr Bell, that the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, regarding licensees when they have been given a licence that is it, is not the in particular. There are certain licensees allowing under- case any more. The licence can be taken away from them. age drinking. Recently I phoned the police and spoke to It is no God-given right that they have a licence or that the police on two occasions, to different police officers, something was said to them that they should have a licence. about a certain pub on the quay area in Douglas when on a They have to go back every year and look for a licence. It Friday night there are youngsters going down to a little is changed under this Act, but they have had in the past to club down at the bus station, but afterwards they are going go back every year, and I do hope that the Licensing Court into pubs. So I had a word with the police and I said to one will take great account of what has been said during the police officer in particular, 'Whatever you do, you want to process of this legislation and the concerns that have been watch a certain pub', and he said, 'I know the licensee expressed during the receiving of the regulations. But I there, a very good person and I am surprised at this'. He will be supporting the regulations and I thank the said, 'You have got nothing to worry about, Mr Duggan.' department for their work on this matter. So I said, 'Just keep an eye on it', because especially on a Friday night the youngsters are going to these pubs on the The President: Reply, minister? quay. Last week I had an occasion where parents got in touch with me and they said that their daughter and another Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you young fellow, who is only 15, were drinking in a pub in to all those members who have contributed to the debate Douglas. They had rung up this certain public house and on the regulations. I hope, with my answers, that all they took no action, the licensee, whatsoever and the members that have spoken can support these regulations parents after 20 minutes went and took the kiddies out. So and I will try to explain the reasons why. what I am saying is the Licensing Courts want to be very Mr Downie mentioned about fresh water being available strict with these types of people that are operating public in regulation 3.6; that is a continuance of what is already houses and they are not watching what age the youngsters the case. He mentioned the price of soft drinks, and we are, because I know, when the Licensing Bill with Mr deliberately in the department incorporated the concern Corkill came before the Keys, I said especially young ladies over pricing and the only word we could introduce was it would be difficult to judge their age, but I am talking the word 'reasonable' which may to members not seem about youngsters here of 15; that has actually happened - perhaps strong enough and open to various interpretation, they are drinking in pubs. but other than using the word 'reasonable' you are down to using words such as 'price controls' or no controls at Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I welcome these regulations, all. So it was the middle road, and I certainly hope that but I am concerned about the comments that have been licensees and the brewery who fix prices, anybody who is made with regard to the regulations in regard to the fixing prices, with regard to soft drinks in licensed premises Licensing Act, because I am sure members will remember do take note of the concerns that have been raised today. that the Licensing Act that was brought forward had more Of course, there is recourse to the Board of Consumer licensing hours available and it was the House of Keys Affairs in the event of unreasonable prices being charged. that reduced the licensing hours, and therefore I do not So there are avenues there to be explored with regard to think it is right to point the fmger of derision at government that aspect. for not having a laxer licensing regime than the member The hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, is critical of for Ramsey is suggesting. Maybe he wants it specifically these regulations and critical of the licensing legislation, for the late night openings to have the three hours difference really, that we have, but I think I would like to point out and not the two hours so that, once the pubs have been that the Act is quite a step forward, perhaps in the direction increased by another hour, then the clubs ought to have that he sees - that is, the more mature deliberation over

Licensing Regulations 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T779

licensing, because a lot of this law now is in regulation Mr Duggan mentioned under-age drinking and he also 0 and will come to this hon. Court here from time to time mentioned parents, and I would like to say that parents do for change and amendment and will not necessitate the have an obligation to know where their 15-year-olds are creation of new primary legislation. So there has been a (Members: Hear, hear.) and the fact that they went and shift in that area and perhaps it is not sufficient to satisfy got them out of the pub I think is a good example because the hon. member Mr Bell, but I think it is a point he should it is a pity a few more do not do the same (Several bear in mind when deciding whether to vote for these Members: Hear, hear.) and I think that is an important regulations or not. These regulations will kick off the new aspect. But of course these regulations, by being Act. The appointed day order is there, but it cannot come implemented and allowing the new Act to come in, bring into operation without these regulations and without the all those restrictions onto licensees. The licensees have rules of court which, as I said before, were laid before the got a lot more to lose now with regard to providing under- Court earlier today. No doubt, in the future, as always is age drinkers with alcohol, and I think the most important the way with licensing, there will be an amendment Bill aspect is the fact that it is not an all-or-nothing situation because there are one or two areas within the existing Act where the licence is either allowed to remain or taken away that the department itself will be wishing to address and by the court, that in fact it can be suspended for a period of that will, by necessity, now be in the life of the next House time. That, I think, is a severe penalty and will make of Keys, but there are areas for amendment and of course licensees very careful about how they operate their that will then allow the opportunity for further debate. But business, and that was the will of the legislature and that is as the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, who took the now coming to fruition, one would hope. Licensing Bill through the House of Keys, has stated, there So I thank hon. members who have supported it and was a very, very full debate on the hours and what my there is this variance of opinion but I believe that the Act department is trying to do with these regulations is to is a compromise. It has got something in it for everyone. I 0 implement the Act as was thrashed out at that time, and I think every opinion is there but maybe not in the total way apologise to members that it has taken such a long time that we would like. There are things in these regulations for these regulations to come forward but I honestly believe and things in the Act I do not particularly agree with, but now that they are as accurate and as good a set of they are a small part of the total, and I hope that hon. regulations as I have been able to achieve in any event and members can support it unanimously. I beg to move. reflect the primary legislation of last year. The major issue which Mr Bell talks about is the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution differential of hours for the late-night licence standing at item 29 on the order paper. Will those in favour establishments, primarily in the promenade area. I do not please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes believe - and other members who have contributed have it. obviously reflect this - that the public of the Isle of Man want to see licensing stretching out further into the early hours of the next morning. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) PERMITTED HOURS (CLUBS) ORDER There are problems for my department in the promenade 1996 — APPROVED area. As Mr Gilbey said, the police resources are stretched and there is no doubt that the existence of late-night licences The President: Item 30, the Minister for Home Affairs. does collect crowds of people together and they are on the promenade in large groups and that does present a logistical Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: problem for the police to deal with. Having said that, there are some clubs that are extremely well run and I am aware 0 of that. I talk to them and am very keen to see that they are That the Permitted Hours (Clubs) Order 1996 be running their licences properly and I thank them for actually approved. coming to the department and showing us what they actually do in that respect, that they try hard at what they Members may recall that at the March sitting of Tynwald do, they do the job professionally and they do it well. during the debate on permitted hours over the Easter period The point to make about the hours is that on a Friday I mentioned that there existed a differential under the 1995 and a Saturday night the pubs will be open till 12 o'clock. Licensing Act between the permitted hours for on-licence So that is an extra, in effect two hours a week and the late- premises and those for registered clubs. The department night licences want to stretch from two till three to keep does not believe that such a differential is sustainable and that three-hour differential. It is a matter of opinion, and, therefore the order before this Court today seeks to reduce as I said at the outset, this is the sort of regulation and the ordinary permitted hours in clubs to the same as those legislation where it is very difficult to please everybody. which apply to licensed premises. With regard to the investment and any agreements that I am aware that when the Licensing Act was making its may have been reached in the past, I am not aware of any, way through the Keys in Bill form a similar move to reduce but I take on board what Mr Gilbey says and I will look the hours for clubs was made by the hon. member for into the existence of any such agreements and will make Glenfaba. That move failed, with several members arguing known any agreements if they are in existence, but I do that clubs were well run and should therefore remain open not believe that there are any agreements as such, but I until midnight if they wished. I do not doubt that most will look at that aspect. clubs are well run. I do not doubt that most pubs are well

0 Permitted Hours (Clubs) Order 1996 — Approved T780 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 run. But I do doubt that it is fair and equitable that licensed Hon. members will note that although these regulations premises should be disadvantaged over clubs. are to come into operation on 1st June, they will not apply The aim of the Licensing Bill was initially to treat both to existing flats or to buildings containing such flats for a the same as regards their permitted hours and as such the period of three years from that date. This is to allow Bill entered the House of Keys. The Keys reduced the hours sufficient time for the owners of such premises to bring for licensed premises but left the clubs as they were, thus their premises up to the requirements of the regulations. creating this anomaly. Many existing flats may already comply with these What is being sought by this order is the continuance requirements but I recognise that many will not and will of the status quo, because at present, until the 1995 Act need to be adapted to comply. comes into being, the clubs cannot open for ordinary These regulations have been in the course of preparation permitted hours until midnight. So it is not the case that for some time and the department has consulted widely on we are reducing their existing hours but merely redressing the contents. Relevant government departments, local the balance prior to the new Act coming into force. Clubs authorities and byelaw authorities have been consulted and will still be able to apply for an extension to permitted public comment was invited by way of advertisements in hours in prescribed cases, much as they can at the moment. the local press. Where appropriate, the regulations have I beg to move. been amended to take into account the comments received. We are dealing here with the safety of people who live Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. in flats. As I stated earlier, different considerations apply to flats than to houses and bungalows occupied by a single The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution household. We have tried, in drafting the regulations, to standing at item 30 on the order paper. Will those in favour ensure that flats are made as safe as possible but without please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes imposing unreasonable demands and restrictions on owners have it. and residents alike. I do believe that the end product has achieved that objective. I move that the Fire Precautions (Flats) Regulations of 1996 be approved. FIRE PRECAUTIONS (FLATS) REGULATIONS 1996 — APPROVED Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: Item 31, the Minister for Home Affairs. Mr Delaney: Mr President, although all of the Court would accept the need for safety of people in flats, and Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: most of us have had experience in our constituencies of unfortunate circumstances, could the minister give me an That the Fire Precautions (Flats) Regulations 1996 undertaking that the three-year lead-in period will look at be approved. the Housing (Flats) Regulations under the other department, so that before this is brought in, a large number These regulations are made under the Fire Precautions of flats, particularly in Douglas and Ramsey and places Act of 1975 and specify the fire precautions to be taken in like that, who have no other means of heating, can comply flats and in buildings of which flats form part. with these regulations, and the people who occupy them A fire risk is inherent in any premises in which persons in three years' time will not be left bereft of heating by reside. Where, however, a building is divided into more changing the Housing (Flats) Regulations where landlords than one dwelling, the fire risks are increased due to there will be obliged to put in a legal form of heating, and we being more than one source of heating and cooking. The will ensure that cold winter nights are not spent by families more dwellings there are in a building, the greater is the who have not got local authority housing and have not got risk. It is for this reason that it is considered necessary to the means to pay for expensive heating systems? provide a higher degree of fire protection in buildings containing a number of separate dwellings than in a Mr Brown: Mr President, I welcome these regulations building which consists of a single dwelling. This is what and I have to say I hope it is a first step in actually getting these regulations seek to achieve. clearly laid down under the Fire Precautions Act 1975 fire The regulations cover the means of escape from regulations in terms of not just flats but public buildings buildings containing flats and from the flats themselves and other things like that. I think it is fair to say that there within such buildings. They also deal with fire alarms and has been a concern for some time that when inspections emergency lighting and the testing of such systems and are undertaken by the fire service people are not aware the provision of fire-fighting equipment. Finally, they exactly what is required (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) and prescribe various articles which are not normally permitted there is a suspicion that different fire officers have different to be kept in buildings containing flats. These include requirements and whether or not that is right, that is certain gas-fired, oil-fired and parafin-fired heating certainly the suspicion and I believe that having it clearly appliances. The regulations are somewhat technical in parts laid down in regulations, as is the case in these regulations, in their reference to the standards of fire precautions and is of benefit (1) to the fire service and (2) to the public fire-fighting equipment required but because the safety of who have to cope with this, and the point that the fire persons using the premises is the overriding factor, it is service then have to come back to Tynwald if they wish to essential that the standards required are precisely defined. change their regulations is clearly a matter that they have

Fire Precautions (Flats) Regulations 1996 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T781

to be conscious of, and I think it will help bring some necessarily maintained. They go into disrepair and are of • stability into ensuring that fire regulations and fire no benefit to the occupants. Under these regulations there requirements are kept to a standard. will be a duty to make sure that they are operational, even Outside that I would just like to ask the minister if he some years after the original installation. I beg to move. could confirm, if he is able to, what the penalty is under paragraph 12, the testing of alarm and lighting systems, if The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution somebody does not comply with keeping the logbook up standing at item 31 on the order paper. Will those in favour to date. If the minister could answer that, then I think please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes publicly it would be helpful to make it clear what the have it. penalty is on that matter. Otherwise, I fully support these regulations and I look forward to regulations coming forward in the other areas. CROWN GREEN BOWLING FESTIVAL ORDER Mr Duggan: Mr President, just briefly, sir, I support 1996 — APPROVED the regulations before the Court but just on the point Mr Delaney, the member of the Council, raised regarding the The President: Item 32, the Minister for Home Affairs. heating systems, I remember in my constituency a number of years ago there was a terrible fire in Belmont Terrace. Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: Actually they reckoned it was a person who went in who had been drinking, possibly, and smoking and he had That the Crown Green Bowling Festival Order 1996 caused the fire. But it was actually a gas bottle that went be approved right up through the building like a fireball, and they are very dangerous things to have in blocks of flats. So I Hon. members may recall that at this time every year support the regulations but taking on board those gas bottles orders are brought before this Court for approval to enable are most dangerous in flats. side betting to take place at the two crown green bowling festivals which are held during the summer season, one in The President: Reply, sir? June and one in September. The festivals are arranged in conjunction with the Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank Department of Tourism and attract a faithful following. members for their comments. Betting on the results of the bowling is an integral part of In answer to the hon. member of the Council, Mr each festival and without this facility the festivals may not Delaney, the three-year period is to recognise those take place. I am advised that the Island's bookmakers are difficulties of introducing regulations in this area where not interested in the festivals, as a specialised knowledge the department is fully aware that a number of perhaps of bowling is required. Therefore a United Kingdom low-income families are involved in buildings where there bookmaker applies to the Gaming Control Commission are a number of flats and therefore they are very dependent for betting facilities at the festivals. on a gas-bottle type of heating and these regulations will The crown green bowling festival orders vary the terms insist in due course that the gas is piped in from outside. of the Gaming, Betting and Lotteries Act 1988 to allow Now, there has to be in any reasonable society the chance the taking of bets at an approved bowling green by the for these things to be introduced and we think a three-year holder of a United Kingdom bookmaker's permit who is period is adequate for that. There is certainly no intent to also approved in writing by the commissioners. The deny people a source of heating. But bearing in mind the approved bowling greens are also specified in the order. comments the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr The Gaming, Betting and Lotteries (Amendment) Act Duggan, has just made, these gas bottles in the case of fire of 1996, which was passed by the branches earlier this - and these buildings are high-risk buildings - go off like year and has received Royal Assent today, dispenses with rockets and the problem is not one gas bottle, it is when the need for these orders to be approved by this hon. Court. you have got perhaps seven or even eight in one building, Under this Act orders will still have to be made and laid and then it is not only a hazard to the occupants but even before Tynwald but they will not require the Court's to the fire-fighters as they arrive. approval, although they will be capable of being annulled With regard to Mr Brown's comment about penalties, by resolution of this Court. The Act has received Royal `Any person who under paragraph (1) is responsible for Assent and I anticipate that it will be in operation before any contravention of regulation 2 shall be guilty of an the order relating to the September festival is made. I move offence under Part I of Schedule 8 to the Act', and I think that this order be approved. that that actually is an unlimited fine or imprisonment. So there is quite a severe penalty and therefore it is quite clear Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. that these regulations mean business. The important thing - and it is a thing that the fire officers The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution have told me since I have been in this job - is that when standing at item 32 on the order paper. Will those in favour flats are converted the safety equipment such as emergency please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes lighting, such as fire alarms, are adequate but they are not have it.

Crown Green Bowling Festival Order 1996 — Approved T782 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

CREMATION (FEES) REGULATIONS Mr Rodan: I beg to second, Mr President. 1996 —APPROVED Mr CorkM: Just briefly, Mr President, I would like to The President: Item 33, sir. thank the minister for his explanatory note to members, but is the minister satisfied that the system is not abused? Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: There has been comment to me recently that certain local authorities may well be spreading their meetings in order That the Cremation (Fees) Regulations 1996 be to claim extra attendance allowances. (Members: Oh!) approved. That is an unsubstantiated comment that has been made to me, but all I would ask the minister is are the ratepayers This order follows the Cremation Regulations of 1985 made sufficiently aware of this scheme? which provide that before a cremation can take place certain certificates have to be signed by doctors in respect of The President: Reply, minister. identifying the deceased and the doctor who used to treat the same. Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. No These fees are paid to the doctor by the funeral director. representations have been made to the department at all There is therefore no government expenditure as such with regard to the manner in which those local authorities involved. They have not been increased since 1992. who have adopted this scheme use it as far as their members I have agreed with the executive of the Isle of Man are concerned. I understand the point the hon. member for Medical Society that they ought, by the department, to be Onchan makes. considered to be uprated annually to avoid what might Certainly as far as the public are concerned - or rather appear to be swingeing increases by not addressing them those who live in the areas whose local authorities have for a number of years and from next year I hope that that adopted this particular attendance allowances scheme - I will be the form that is followed. But I beg to move the believe that they clearly would like to ask their local item at 33 on the order paper. authorities how their town halls are run and their rate moneys spent. But if it is helpful for members of the press Mr Rodan: I beg to second, Mr President. here to publicise this order, then that might go some way towards the member's concerns. Thank you, Mr President. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 33 on the order paper. Will those in favour The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes standing at item 34 on the order paper. Will those in favour have it. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

LOCAL AUTHORITY MEMBERS (ATTENDANCE ALLOWANCES) ORDER PROCEDURAL 1996 —APPROVED The President: Now, before turning to item 35 I would The President: Item 34, the Minister for Local Government and the Environment. just like to seek your advice under standing order 122 which is how far we go after six o'clock tonight. Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: Mr Groves: One minute. (Laughter) That the Local Authority Members (Attendance Allowances) Order 1996 be approved. The President: If I may make a suggestion, what do you think about seven o'clock as a guideline, with the hope, This order follows schedule 2 of the Local Government of course, of finishing the whole of the agenda tomorrow? Act which makes provision for those local authorities who That would be the objective. So if we continue until about resolve themselves to do so, to pay their members seven, is that acceptable to hon. members? attendance allowances. These allowances themselves are the same as those payable to non-Tynwald members of Members: Agreed. statutory bodies. This order provides for an uprating. The new attendance The President: Thank you, hon. members. allowance will be £17 up to a limit of £2,040 in any financial year. Hon. members will appreciate this is a maximum only. Local authorities who do not wish to implement this need not do so and members of local TRANSPORT STRATEGY — IMPLEMENTATION authorities who do not wish to take the same need not do REPORT — MOTION CARRIED so either, but this order uprates the allowance in accordance with regulations and I beg to move item 34 standing in my The President: Moving on, then, to item 35, the name on the order paper. Thank you, sir. Minister for Transport.

Cremation (Fees) Regulations 1996 — Approved Local Authority Members (Attendance Allowances) Order 1996 — Approved Procedural Transport Strategy — Implementation Report — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T783

Mr North: Mr President, I beg to move: adequate car parking to support the retail/tourist and the commercial/business sectors of Douglas. Nevertheless it That the transport strategy for Douglas set out in is accepted that the highways system improvement and the implementation report by the Department of Transport car parking provision must take account of the need to be received. reduce the adverse environmental effects of traffic and parking demands to the community as a whole and Mr President, the transport strategy for Douglas residential areas in particular as well as demonstrating promoted by the Department of Transport aims to provide value for money. an economic and efficient transportation system for A transport strategy must plan for government policies Douglas and its environs which meets the needs of all continuing to be successful in stimulating economic growth sectors of the community, including residential, business and with that an upturn in travel demand. It is accepted in and commercial interests, and minimises the environmental these proposals that car ownership is likely to continue to intrusion of both traffic and transport. increase. The Department of Transport's proposals for new This aim is set down in a consultative document or improved highways have the objective of relieving prepared by the Department of Transport and issued in specific traffic congestions to the benefit of future traffic January 1996. The consultative document had the formal the economy of the Island and the reduction of accidents. support of the Departments of Local Government and the These implementation proposals hinge on the provision Environment, Tourism and Leisure and Home Affairs. of new highways and the establishment of a hierarchy of It should be emphasised that the evolution of the roads, assuming full implementation of the strategy Douglas transport strategy is an ongoing process which recommendations. The Department of Transport have has been progressed since the original report on traffic and established their hierarchy of roads for Douglas under the transport in Douglas and, in framing a transport strategy, following classifications. it is necessary to strike a careful balance between, on the Firstly, there is the primary distributors which form the one hand, a clear description of the government's intentions primary network for the town as a whole and all long- to allow the corporation, local businesses and residents to distance traffic movements to, from and within the town plan with a reasonable degree of confidence, and, on the are channelled onto such roads. New accesses onto such other hand, to avoid being overprescriptive and roads should generally be avoided and frontage access of overdetailed with the result that the strategy is overtaken residential developments should be discouraged. On these by events. There is also the need to strike the right balance roads the needs of moving traffic, including buses, should between the ability of transport to service economic take precedence over the needs of parked cars. development and the ability of the environment to sustain The second category is the district distributors and this future quality of life. We must consider how the economy distributes traffic between key areas of the town and forms of Douglas will change over the next decade and consider the links between the primary network and the roads within the implications of the locational decisions of businesses residential developments. On-street parking associated and individuals and take fully into account the regeneration with frontage developments should be discouraged except issues of the town centre. where such parking does not compromise the flow of traffic The review of the Douglas transport plan commenced and public transport. in 1994. It resulted in a series of consultation exercises The third category, coming down, is local distributors leading up to the issue of the consultation document in and these distribute traffic within sectors of the town and January 1996. Submissions received towards the end of connect these sectors to the primary and district distributor 1995 were issued as a separate annex to accompany this network. These roads will need to accommodate both new document. access and frontage development. Following circulation of the consultative document in The final category is the residential link roads. These January 1996 to all interested parties, the Department of connect residential areas to the distributor network. These Transport awaited detailed responses from recipients, but roads are not expected to carry through traffic and should in the event only the Chamber of Commerce expressed operate with the needs of local residents taking priority detailed considerations. over those of the moving vehicle. A more positive consultation exercise was initiated in This is the first time that such a detailed classification March 1996 on the transport strategy and the proposals of roads in Douglas has been carried out and generally for implementing that strategy by the Department of reflects present usage. Priority must be given to make better Transport and other lead departments. This consultation use of the existing road network to assist traffic movement. exercise was extensive and continued into May 1996. The Details of the intended hierarchy of roads are set out in results of this consultation and the details of the strategy the road classification drawing included in the implementation proposals are set down in the implementation report. This is identical to the 1:5000 comprehensive implementation report issued to members. drawing used in the consultation exercise. The consultations indicated that all parties, to a The provision of new highways, such as the substantial extent, endorsed the 10 basic objectives of the Ballakermeen link road, has, however, enabled some Douglas transport strategy. These 10 objectives and the existing roads to be classified as residential link roads rather proposals for implementing them, as set down, can, for than by their present usage. Whilst the needs of local convenience, be separated into the improvement of the residents take priority over moving vehicles in such roads, highway and public transport system and the provision of the residential parking must not, nevertheless, be allowed

Transport Strategy — Implementation Report — Motion Carried T784 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 to adversely affect the use of the road as a link to the where lay-bys can be provided and illegal parking or distributor network and will continue to require controls. stopping minimised. Other traffic using this route will not The other new highway projects which have been be affected in the intervals between buses. assumed to be undertaken are the South Douglas link, The Department of Transport's intention is to extend involving a new bridge across the inner harbour and the the bus priority route principle, if successful, to the other upgrading of the old Castletown Road, and the two high-frequency bus routes. All three routes are shown strengthening of the outer links which is of significance on the general information drawing included in the with regard to the new hospital. implementation report. The most significant concern expressed in the This drawing also shows the extent of the proposed consultation exercise related to the principle of the need designated cycle routes along the promenade walkway and for this outer link, especially when its alignment has yet to along the heritage trail linking into North Quay. be determined south-west of Ballafletcher. The Department The consultation exercise recently completed resulted in of Transport accept that all matters relating to the proposed substantial endorsement for the general Department of outer link will be subject to the full planning approval Transport implementation proposals for improvement of the procedures. highway system and enhanced provision for bus and cycle The need for a detailed classification of roads, other use. Detailed proposals at specific locations can of course than residential, is to enable the Department of Transport be modified to accommodate more effective arrangements and government in general to concentrate traffic on roads suggested or to take account of changing circumstances. suitable to its needs, discourage the use of local residential Funding for the Department of Transport's proposals roads for through traffic, provide a framework for for the improvement of the highway is, to a substantial development control, and create a classification of safe extent, within current budget proposals. and environmentally sensitive areas. Turning to the provision of adequate car parking, the A further consequence of the detailed classification of identification of sites for the expansion of car parking and roads is the ability to better progress the Department of the establishment of a capital works programme to fmance Transport's programme of comprehensive street such expenses is currently the responsibility of the enhancement in liaison with the Department of Local Department of Local Government and the Environment. Government and the Environment. An enhancement Discussions with the Department of Transport are currently methodology has been developed involving consultation in hand to identify the future opportunities for construction for a scheme in Pulrose Road and is likely to be applied to and operation of car parks in line with policy. The existing further areas such as North Quay and the HawardenAvenue off-street public car parks and the known future car parks, area. Such street enhancements are in accordance with one such as Shaw's Brow, are shown on the general information of the objectives of the Douglas transport strategy which drawing incorporated in the implementation report. envisages reduction in environmental intrusion arising Funding for matters relating to the provision of increased from traffic and improvements in the environmental quality car parking has to be determined within budget proposals of life of the whole community with particular reference for the Department of Local Government and the to residential areas. Environment. Further highway improvements follow from the The Department of Transport intend, in conjunction with Department of Transport's proposals to continue a the Department of Local Government and the Environment, programme of traffic management schemes at junctions to review the methodology of operation of an and key radials. A total of 45 junctions where such schemes interdepartmental agency to manage all aspects of car may be necessary are shown on the general information parking, including funding and enforcement. In this respect drawing included in the implementation report. the Department of Transport intend to further extend the The improvement of highways is intended to be disc parking scheme to resolve continuing local parking complemented by equivalent improvement of public problems. The general information drawing shows the transport systems and the transport strategy states the existing disc parking zones and also a practical, future objective of promoting the greatest use of public transport extension able to be enforced with the recently enhanced as a means of reducing traffic and parking demands. numbers of parking controllers. Isle of Man Transport is currently planning a completely My department propose to strengthen the Douglas Joint new bus network covering the whole of the Isle of Man, Transportation Committee by the setting up of a working not just Douglas. Key features include the introduction of group of officers from lead government departments to cross-Douglas services and the need in central Douglas co-ordinate policy determined by the departments. for only a bus interchange rather than a bus station as at The results of the consultation exercise confirmed that present. Other key features are small bus hail and ride the related planning directives will be contained in the services and express commuter services. Island strategic plan and the revised Douglas local plan Of greater significance to the Department of Transport which are being issued by the Department of Local is the intention to concentrate bus services along specific Government and the Environment. high-frequency corridors where it is anticipated that the It should be emphasised that the proposed actions set bus frequency will be less than 10 minutes. The department out in the implementation report are essential elements in proposes to establish a bus priority route between St the progression of this revised Douglas local plan and hence Ninian's and Douglas where buses will have priority at a measure of acceptance by Tynwald is sought. junctions and traffic lights and stops will be repositioned To conclude, the consultation exercise indicated general

Transport Strategy — Implementation Report — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T785

endorsement of the implementation proposals. Mr Mr Brown and Mrs Hannan: Hear, hear. President, it is therefore my pleasure to move this resolution standing in my name. Mr Brown: It will affect Douglas.

Mr Kniveton: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my Mr Downie: Well, you may say that, hon. member, but remarks. if there is any department that has been lacking in providing any sort of a transportation strategy I would suggest it is Mr Downie: Mr President, hon. members, I could have yours, for your bus network, so the sooner you get on with waited but, still, you have given me the opportunity, so I it the better. suppose I am first on. Hon. members, I do not want to go and take you all the Mr Brown: How long were you on the corporation way through the report. Most of you will be very, very when you had the rates? familiar with its contents and, like me, I would think most of you will not agree with it in its entirety but I would Mr Downie: So the first question I would like think if we took a straw poll of the Court at this particular answering: having put so much effort, time and money time there would be something in here that would appeal into the compilation and preparation of this report, why to everybody and, by the same rule, there would be things are we just going to have it received? in here that we would disagree on. I would just like to put on record that at the Council of Anyway, hon. members, I would just like to say that in my Ministers' meeting when the transport strategy was finally short time in local government and central government, 10 discussed, before its inclusion on the May agenda for this years, I do not think there has ever been a time before when so hon. Court, neither my minister Mr Groves' nor the views many government departments and agencies have got together of the Department of Local Government were discussed and have actually produced this Douglas transport strategy. It or represented at the Council of Ministers meeting. Now, I has taken a considerable amount of time, government time and think that that is not good enough and as far as I am effort, to produce this report and I would suggest that because concerned there is an awful lot of time gone in by the of the in-depth approach that the department have taken and officers at DoLGE and he happened to be away at the time. the link with JMP and all the other investigations they have Now, it is my view that the significant importance of this carried out it has probably been extremely expensive as well. It strategy and its relationship with the Douglas local plan revision have been completely underestimated by the is the first report of its kind to be compiled to deal with the Douglas major traffic management and car parking problems remainder of the Council of Ministers who were present on that day. In fact, hon. members, you really cannot expect and the report, as I said, includes the five years of the different to have this particular document, the Douglas transport JMP recommendations. strategy, without linking it to that document that we are Now, when one is involved in the planning process and currently - one sees what happens in other major towns in the United Kingdom, now it is common to have a traffic and transport Mrs Hannan: What is that document? strategy in line with a forthcoming plan and in fact most of the major towns in England have a specific transport Mr Downie: That is the Douglas Local Plan revision strategy and their transport and planning strategies which all members should have been circulated with. normally run together. So this is a first for this document in the Isle of Man. Members: No. I am glad to say that the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers have given this Court a clear undertaking that Mr Downie: Well, the Council of Ministers should have the problems currently being experienced with traffic had it. management and car parking in Douglas will be addressed and there is the proof of it today. So here we are with the Mr Cretney: It is confidential. Douglas Transport Strategy Implementation Report and the resolution from the Council of Ministers that the report Mr Lowey: We have not seen it. of the Department of Transport be received. Now, hon. members, I have a copy of the report that Mr Corkill: No, we have not had it. went out before the Council of Ministers' meeting which quite clearly states on the front of it - Mr Downie: I do not know when you clear your post. You tell us often enough to look in our boxes. Mr Cretney: Confidential. Mr Brown: Every day. Mr Downie: That is as may well be, but I was under the impression that this strategy for Douglas was to be Mrs Hannan: Every day. It has not been to us. recommended to be approved and the department's proposals to implement the strategy to be adopted. Mr Downie: Right. (Interjections) As far as I am Now, as I say, anybody has a right to change their mind concerned, hon. members, you cannot have a transport and I know there are even doubters amongst us in the strategy without the Douglas local plan revision. The two Council of Ministers. documents run together.

Transport Strategy — Implementation Report — Motion Carried T786 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

Mrs Hannan: We have not got a local plan yet. Now, this clearly provides for a series of appropriate options contained in the report to be included in the revised Mr Downie: Well, you will get one! Don't panic! town plan. I feel this is without doubt the best way forward (Laughter) I will deliver it personally. and provides a solid foundation to base the Douglas town plan on. Mrs Hannan: You have not got one. It is out for I would like also to put on record my thanks to all the consultation so how can you have one? various departments and individuals who have given their valuable time and energy for producing the plan and Mr Downie: You will get one. You said you are only providing it on time and I would just say, although I am interested in Peel. (Members: Ooh!) I will just read you not going to labour the point, hon. members, I think we the section on page 24 so you will know where it is when should be supporting this. We would be crazy if we just you get your plan: 'Section 5. At the time of writing the received this and threw it out on the shelf. It is too important transport management strategy for Douglas is in an issue. The time is right to bring the two documents preparation by the Department of Transport and it will be together and then over the coming eight or nine months' taken into account in the preparation of future proposals. consultation period both documents can be assessed and Chapters 5 and 6 of this document are intended to illustrate we can bring together our new town plan proposals linked and form the planning perspective of the problems and with our Douglas transport strategy and hope that will issues relating to the town of Douglas and also, where provide the basis for planning in the town for many years appropriate, to suggest options which might mitigate or to come. Thank you, Mr President. resolve the traffic problems.' So there is the link between the two documents, and could I suggest that if the members Mr Rodan: Mr President, I rise to second the of the Council of Ministers were not aware that one amendment of the hon. member Mr Downie. document was running with the other, I suggest that you The minister, when he spoke, said that the transport should have put off making the decision only to have this strategy was developed in response to the need to consider document received and then we would not be in the position how the economy of Douglas will develop over the next that we are in now. 10 years and how to incorporate those changes into decision-making, or words to that effect. How that Mrs Hannan: What are you talking about? objective can be achieved without approving the strategy rather than receiving it, I do not fully understand, but Mr Downie: I am, as a Douglas member, disappointed certainly receiving this document without approving it is at the recommendation just to receive this report today. as good as depositing it on the top shelf as far as a planning Although the strategy is far from perfect, it could and tool is concerned when the local plan for Douglas comes should form the basis and guidelines for a sensible and up for study and approval. It is for that reason that I consider workable strategic plan. Linked, as I said, to the Douglas it absolutely essential that the transport strategy for Douglas local plan it could be used in conjunction with and provide be incorporated into the Douglas town plan, which is the the basis for the planning policy for Douglas and the eastern motivation for the particular amendment moved by Mr sector of the Island for the next several years. It is essential Downie which I am pleased to second. that these two documents are linked together at this stage and members will be aware that following the consultation Mrs Hannan: A point of order. Standing order 3.23(7) and public inquiry process which involves the Douglas says, 'Unless it is of such a nature that its publication would plan revision, there will again be the opportunity to bring be inconsistent with the public interest, no document may the plan before the new Court again. So you are not be referred to until a copy has been distributed to all accepting the document, the Douglas transport strategy Members.' I refer to the amendment that the member for document, all we are asking for you to do is look at it in Douglas West has moved which refers to the revised douglas town plan which is not a document yet, I believe conjunction with the new plan and then when the new plan it is out for consultation, and therefore he has referred to it comes to Douglas you can make your mind up what you and members have not got this document either in their are going to add and what you are going to subtract. possession or it has not been distributed to all members. Hon. members, I know each and every one of us may have a particular section in the Douglas strategic Member: Hear, hear. transportation report which we may find unpalatable. However, I feel the document should be used as a The President: Would you, hon. member, repeat the benchmark or a basis to add or subtract from in conjunction standing order you refer to, please? with the new Douglas town plan and of course subject to Treasury or other implications involved in a capital Mrs Hannan: It is 3.23(7) on page 16 of standing programme. With this in mind, I would like to move the orders, Eaghtyrane. following amendment: The President: Hon. members, my attention having After 'received' add `and its recommendations be been drawn to that standing order and due to the inability incorporated, where appropriate, in the revised Douglas of the hon. member to assure the Court that this document town plan'. has been circulated to all members, I have to accept the

Transport Strategy — Implementation Report — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T787

approach of the hon. member for Peel that the amendment I think one should also draw attention to the efforts by • is out of order. We proceed with the debate. The hon. Tours (Isle of Man), not them alone as a firm but the private member for Glenfaba. sector, which should be brought in to the provision of coach and bus services and I hope that a real effort will be made Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I shall certainly be supporting to allow them to make some provision in these future plans. this resolution and would like to congratulate those who Finally, I must admit I could not quite see the logic of • have produced the document. It is quite clear that a lot of the division between roads being district distributor roads work has gone into it. I would like to just touch on one or and local distributor roads. It did seem to me that the two points arising out of it. division was very fine, and also it was interesting that the , First of all, I thought it was an excellent idea that police, in their evidence, also seemed somewhat confused financial contributions should be sought from developers about it. I wonder if it would be possible to have a lesser (Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.) towards the cost of road number of categories of roads so it really would be clearer networks, et cetera. This certainly happens in other what the divisions are. countries around the world and I think the quicker we can Those are the only comments that I would make, Mr introduce that, the better. President, but I think the most important thing is to think Then my next point is really a query. We are told that about diversification of offices and commerce, wherever we should have midi-buses, which seems quite an excellent possible, outside Douglas, with the government hopefully idea, but for years I have always understood that we have taking the lead. got to have big double-decker buses to deal with the capacity of schoolchildren who need to be taken to school The Speaker: Mr President, I am happy with the motion in the morning and taken home in the evening, and if we that appears on the order paper. There is a lot of good, are going to switch part of that fleet into midi-buses, how sound common sense within the document, but as against • are we going to manage or are we going to have a that, as has been said by my colleague from Douglas West, duplication and just have these big double-decker buses if you were to carry out a straw poll, particularly perhaps for school times only? I would be interested if someone amongst the Douglas members, none of us would agree could answer that. on all of the issues which should either be rejected or indeed I then saw a reference that certain Douglas members be supported, I think that is a statement of fact, and I think say that the amount of car parking space that has to be it is primarily for that reason that I certainly am happy to provided with offices should be increased, and I certainly receive the document, no problem, with all that that implies, would agree with them about that but I think it should also apply to new housing developments. I think as we are about but I would not support under any circumstances any to move into the new century we should really be providing amendment to take it any further than that. (Members: at least three car parking places for each home - one for Hear, hear.) the man, one for the woman and one for the children or for Now, if we just stop there, I would like to turn and make visitors - some comments with regard to the Douglas Transport Strategy Implementation Report. Now, I accept that this is Mr Delaney: The MHK when he is canvassing! the first small step along the road of producing an implementation report. It is not, with respect, an Mr Gilbey: - because there is no doubt that most implementation report. An implementation report, in my families do now have one car for each member of the opinion, should not only list the issues which are detailed family. on pages 55 and 56 and the 10 objectives which precede I was very interested to read, as I am sure other hon. it, but having determined what is going to be tackled, you members were, the poll by the Chamber of Commerce and then need to set about determining the priority within which I thought it was particularly interesting that 90 per cent of the issues are to be addressed and then put down a timescale • and once you have done that you can say that, subject to them said that they would support a bias towards encouraging commercial development elsewhere in the the Treasury being kind and forbearing, as of course they Island as opposed to Douglas in order to relieve the traffic always are, and then you are in the situation where you problems, and I have in fact long urged this and I wrote to can produce a cohesive, structured implementation report. the previous Minister for Agriculture suggesting a start This document is not that, in my opinion, and it is for that might be made by moving the Department of Agriculture reason and the point that I made earlier on that I am very to St John's or somewhere else outside Douglas. It seems happy to receive it and I think then one could move into a to me totally logical. But I do feel that government should proper mode for moving the issues forward along the lines set a lead in this by considering moving some departments perhaps that I have sought to indicate to you. to other parts of this Island. Now, I have distributed or caused to be distributed, a Again, I notice that they supported strongly the idea of four of five-page document, which sets out a number of more flexible work patterns and home working and, areas of concern. I do not propose to go through all of perhaps most relevant to this document, that they would these. Some of them are relatively minor; some have a prefer to have more car parks and pay for longer term car more major significance. Let me just take you through one parking rather than car access to Douglas being given a or two of them. higher priority, and I do think that this is a very good point Why are there four types of road illustrated and what is of theirs and that I would hope we would concentrate more the effect of each one of them on the communities through on providing car parking spaces than on new main roads. which they pass? Now, the answer to that, in general terms, • Transport Strategy — Implementation Report — Motion Carried T788 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 may well be within the definition on pages 36 or 37 of the sorts of government activities, inviting interested parties report. to submit views to the department on the consultative How are all the roads which are not coloured on the document? To the best of my knowledge no such maps to be classified and what is the effect of all this on advertising programme or invitation was extended. That, them? What are they? They are just roads; they are not I think, is unfortunate. main roads. They are not in any way, as far as I can see, It is my view that it can properly be said that the classified in the report. implementation report, as I indicated, cannot be said to be , Now, objective 7b on page 12 specifies the need to a comprehensive traffic management programme partly deliver an additional 800 spaces over the next 10 years. I because, quite rightly, it has only been received. The motion do not object to 800 spaces. I perhaps am a little concerned, does not ask for the stated objectives and the conclusions perhaps a little impatient, about the 10-year timescale (Mr to be adopted and I do not see how that could happen. Cretney: Hear, hear.) and again I am talking without the Neither does it place any of the conclusions in an order of knowledge as to the resources that should be made priority or within a stated timescale, except perhaps in so available in order to speed up the production programme, far as they relate to the financial programme of the but the 10-year phasing of that - why is it 10 years, why Department of Transport, as detailed in the policy isn't the period shorter? Maybe there are good answers to document, and having said all that, it does not give an that. I would like to know what they are. indication of its likely effect on traffic volumes which I Recommendation 10c on page 53 does not appear to presume is one of the principal purposes for which you make sense. It says, 'A capital works programme should draw up a strategic report. There are some very good points be established to finance increased car parking and within the report, but, for the reasons that I have stated, I improved highway infrastructure.' Now, the phrase 'to am sure that it is right that this report be built upon and finance' could certainly be questioned and I wondered developed and for these reasons I am sure it is right that at whether it should be replaced by the words 'to provide' this moment in time it be received. or, alternatively, 'financed by' perhaps, but it certainly does not make sense as presently drafted. Mrs Hannan and Mr Cannan: Hear, hear. Recommendation 2a, which is detailed on page 18, should have the word 'substantially' inserted prior to the Mr Groves: Mr President, with regard to the word 'extended' so that it then reads, 'The disc parking responsibilities of the Department of Local Government schemes should be substantially extended to resolve local and the Environment, I just wish to make a few comments, parking problems.' I do not think the bullet has been bitten particularly in view of the manner in which the hon. to the extent that perhaps is appropriate. member for Douglas West was unfortunate in being able The fourth paragraph on page 56 states, 'The results of to perhaps have some further debate on the points he raised the consultation exercise detailed in the Implementation with his attempt at an amendment. statement confirmed that in respect of development control There is no question but that the major elements the related planning directives will be contained in the contained within this report are being run in parallel with Island Strategic Plan and revised Douglas Local Plan the planning division's consideration of the Douglas local shortly to be issued by the Department of Local town plan and there is no question that if that were not to Government the Environment.' Now, I assume that that be the case, then this document, the intent behind this and means that in so far as the recommendations contained the intent behind the Douglas town plan, would both fail within the report redevelopment control in planning terms, utterly. There are so many implications involved here and such controls will be exercised through the medium of involved in planning issues which mean that neither can planning directives which will be contained in the Island proceed without being joined firmly the one with the other. strategic plan and indeed in the revised Douglas local plan. Indeed on page 23 in this report we make it clear that the Now, if that is a correct interpretation, because I did not final draft of issues and options, which I believe was fully understand the words as they were printed, I am published on Friday last, and that is probably why it has reasonably happy. not yet arrived with some hon. members' desks, knowing At the January 1996 sitting of Tynwald the Chief the speed at which the internal mail appears to work, it Minister invited input to the then consultative document, says here that the Department of Local Government are which he freely admitted at that time was perhaps not clearly co-operating with the Department of Transport in prepared in a form which was appropriate for a document terms of the Douglas transport strategy which will be on which a final determination could be made, from those reflected in the planning policy for that particular town persons who were interested, but as far as I am aware no plan. It makes the point on the next page that the DLGE invitation has been formally extended to the general public confirm that with regard to parking, servicing, access to comment on this. What has happened is that, as was provision for all new developments they intend to make mentioned by the minister earlier today when he moved policy statements in the revised Douglas local plan, and the motion, he, as far as my recollection goes, said that so I hope that the hon. member for Douglas West will take they sat back and waited for comment and the only body some comfort from the comments I make with regard to who commented were the Chamber of Commerce and then this issue because what he said is right, that the one should they decided to take action and approach some bodies. very firmly be attached to and inform the other. Now, that was the general drift. Was there a quarter page It is also the case that at present the responsibilities for advert in the Isle of Man Examiner, just as you see for all off-street car parking lie with the Department of Local

Transport Strategy — Implementation Report — Motion Carried 1 1 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996 T789

Government. That department is progressing now, with report now does and certainly it is the beginnings of the • the corporation of Douglas, the extension to the Shaw's right way forward, although as Mr Speaker is shaking his Brow car park. It is also discussing with others another head, he clearly does not agree with everything in it - site within the town centre for off-street car parking, and it has agreed with the Department of Transport that this The Speaker: Or with you. working party should be set up to consider the whole issue of off-street parking, the provision of a capital programme Mr Groves: - or what particular time of the year one for the same, the determination of budget proposals which might be agreeing with what is in it, Mr Speaker. will allow for the same to be financed - The point, I think, But, Mr President, I do wish to assure hon. members Mr Speaker, you make with regard to 10c - and underneath that the points raised by the hon. member for Douglas West that particular recommendation it does say the DLGE are very important in terms of the Douglas local plan and would consider establishing budget proposals and a the views of the planning division of the planners and how financing programme by way of a capital works scheme. the Department of Transport sees these important issues That is that the word 'finance' means: how you go about being contained within the development of Douglas itself. funding the capital works programme. It is not some clever trick to say we are not going to do anything, simply a way Mr Delaney: I can receive this, as all this Court will of saying, 'How am I going to finance this? Well, I will receive it, as that will get us over the hump till next year draw up budget proposals and a capital programme that and by the time we have laid a brick on a brick for an extra will tell me how I will finance it, fund it.' So there is long-stay car park one nine-tenth of the 10-year plan absolutely no question that a great deal of what is required outlined will have gone by us. I would have hoped that the in terms of effort and input to see that this is implemented Minister for Local Government would have stood up and and the recommendations here are implemented lies also said, 'I can announce as part of this plan for the 800 spaces 4* we are going to need that Douglas Corporation is starting with the full co-operation of the DLGE. But there is one point that I do want to make because it next month to build the extension for 230 spaces on Shaw's has never been mentioned apparently, to my knowledge Brow car park, but according to their meeting last week anyway, by anyone discussing this issue. It is certainly not with me, they have no such intention for next month or the mentioned by those members of the public who appear to month after or the month after.' So the time is going to go blame government entirely for the traffic problems in past us and meanwhile the situation will be where the Douglas and it was a point that was brought to my notice amount of increasing cars, referred to by the minister, will when there was a comment made in the original carry on, they will increase, the new offices will be built at consultation document issued by the Department of the Villiers car park, the new developments will happen Transport by the police and they said that if we continue on the promenade, the Steam Packet buildings will start to to own motor cars and all drive about in motor cars one by be developed when it is sold off, we all know that, and one as we do, we will soon have a traffic situation in this what will happen is then the spaces we know which will at town which is every day the same as we experience in TT least get the cars off the road will not be there, and that is fortnight. We have continuing increasing car ownership. the key to Douglas and to any small town anywhere in Some 20,000 to 25,000 vehicles a day, as the minister has Britain, is having the spaces that people can go to, pay for, just told me, fire into Douglas every day. I came here today if that is necessary, the point made by the hon. member for on my own. Did anyone else come with somebody else? I Rushen this morning - are they paying too much is a came on my own in my car. I did not take anyone else with separate issue - but they must have the space to go to first. me. I certainly did not come on public transport, which is If you are bringing them into the town and they have to a very crucial element in the traffic management problems come into this town, they have to park somewhere, and Ifor all the towns and particularly Douglas, making the that issue is not being addressed because we are going to public transport system affordable and as efficient as receive this report instead of receiving confirmation that possible to attract commuters onto them. But when are we we are going to do something about the problem. going to address the long-term issue of continuing car It has to be done with the Douglas town plan, but the ownership? Because if we all carry on acquiring cars and Department of Local Government, as we all understand, vehicles and so on at the rate we do, there is nothing is responsible for, in liaison with Douglas Corporation and government or the Department of Transport can do about others, the building of car park spaces. I have never quite it. We as owners of vehicles or purchasers of cars must understood that situation where one department brings the ourselves accept some responsibility for what we create, strategy for the solution to the problem and another two or and that has never been said, to my knowledge, by anybody three departments are part of that strategy, such as public and I think it is fundamental. We cannot just blame one transport. We all know from the last two years that even government department because the traffic is as we see it when the buses are virtually for nothing, they will not use today. We all have a part to play. them to come into the town because we are car-orientated, So I just wanted to make that point that clearly I support and unless the members in this hon. Court are going to tell what is in here. I am actually sorry that it turned into an the public, as was indicated by the minister we should not interim report rather than an implementation one, but I do be owning these cars, or 'You will travel on the buses know the minister intended it to be an implementation whether you like it or not', you ain't going to resolve the report initially with also the why and the wherefore, but problem. It would not matter whether you have a 1990 there were good reasons for perhaps phasing it in as this report from JMP, whether you have this report or the other as Transport Strategy — Implementation Report — Motion Carried T790 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st MAY 1996

46 reports that went before it. That will not resolve the concerned, I think sometimes I wonder when consultation problem, the issue and the will to resolve the issue, and I ended and when it began and there was a lot of overlapping, honestly believe that receiving the report, as we will do, and could I just say that in my opinion, for what it is worth, its space on the shelf has been reserved, but the space for I fully understood that a lot of consultation has gone on the car parking necessary for those who want to use them over the last few years. We have had public exhibitions has not been reserved. They are not there to be reserved showing a lot, in fact virtually all that is in this report; we and unless that part of all these reports, the JMP 1990, this have had them at the sea terminal and they have been report, the 1979 report, all these reports that were issued attended by hundreds of people and we have had their by the Chief Constable of the day, Douglas Corporation comments over the years. and all these huge bodies, all identified long-stay car First of all could I just address the point Mr Speaker parking and unless we address that issue we cannot even made about the priority and timescale. I think if you go pretend to be attacking the problem that is encompassing into too much detail, and I understand it would be very, this town and when we do - the hon. member. Mr Gilbey, very good to have all the priorities laid down there and the his suggestion - move the offices to other parts of the Island, timescale, but I have to say that if you can tell me and give they will then start inheriting this problem as well, because me a timetable of all the private commercial developments as the Island's economy, which we all are told and we all that will take place within Douglas within the next five know, is growing in certain sections, the wealth will years and the timescale, then we may be able to give you a purchase cars and those cars will travel on the roads and prioritised list. But unless you can, and I keep using the those roads will lead into Douglas or wherever those offices example that Marks & Spencer was not to be built till three or jobs are and those cars will have to be parked somewhere years ago, less than that, and Market Street was going the and unless we do that we cannot even address the issues other way. Because of that development it had to be and the problems outlined in this report. reversed and as far as the timescales go, it is very difficult. I honestly believe that what we have to do is have a I have had the problem in this Court before where you try vote here that the money, as we have been told is there, is and be helpful and give a timescale on something and then allocated to the corporation or to anybody else who is you get a load of snow in the winter and everything has to prepared to develop their land for long-stay car parking to stop. (Interjections and laughter) assist them to get these car parking spaces so that the cars I really do not intend to go into any more (Members: can go there, because on the issue I am raising the hon. Hear, hear.) other than to say as far as the off-street parking member for West Douglas, Mr Speaker, and his colleague, and the 10 years, I agree with Mr Speaker, I agree with the I thought were very light on the minister because they in hon. member for Council, Mr Delaney - we would like to their constituency, like the members for East Douglas and see those off-street car parks built as soon as possible and some in South obviously, in the Hillside Avenue area, are I know my hon. colleague the Minister for Local having to deal with these issues in the real world, and all Government and the Environment is working hard, and these reports here are not going to assist those residents will be, to get Shaw's Brow under way. There is private who are the victims of the car-minded people of the Island car parking. There is one coming up in Walpole Avenue and probably everywhere else in Britain. They are the ones which I think has received planning permission for, I think, every day who have to solve this problem in their mind it is 300 and hopefully those will go ahead and hopefully and the visual effect it has and in some cases the detriment they will go ahead a lot sooner than 10 years. We would it has to the valuation of properties, and that is one element like to see it. that has never been taken into consideration. They will There are still quite a few problems we have not solved, pay the price because the purchase price of their property but I would thank all the hon. members for their comments is going down because the people who view them see all and I beg to move the resolution standing in my name. these thousands of cars round them and say, 'I am not going to live there.' They are also paying the price of the car The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution society we are living in. standing at item 35 on the order paper. Will those in favour I hope that we receive this report, fine, but that there is please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes a commitment very early on in this Court asking us to have it. That, hon. members, concludes our business for supply the money to build the car park spaces that have this day. The Court will now adjourn and the adjournment been identified in this report and every other report, and will be until 10.30 tomorrow morning. Thank you. as far as building flyovers and swing-bridges is concerned, and new bridges, I am sorry, sir: they are fancies; they are The Court adjourned at 6.55 p.m. fancies of the mind and they are fancies of the future. Spend that money now on the car parking needed to solve the problem of the people who suffer it. CORRIGENDUM

The President: Reply, minister. Page T709 (Tynwald Court, 23rd April 1996), column 1, please delete from the list of members present the names Mr North: Thank you, Mr President, and might I, first of the Lord Bishop (the Rt Rev Noel Debroy Jones) and of all, thank all those members who have supported this. It Hon E G Lowey. has been a long time coming and there certainly has been a lot of consultation. In fact as far as Mr Speaker is

Corrigendum