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The Big Interview Episode Number: 217 Episode Title: Kenny Rogers Description: He's now a member of the Country Music Hall Of Fame. And that's where Kenny Rogers opened up to Dan Rather about his illustrious career
ACT ONE KENNY ROGERS (SINGING)
You got to know when to hold ‘em…
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
TONIGHT ON THE BIG INTERVIEW
RATHER
Define Kenny Rogers' music for me?
ROGERS
I'm a country singer with a lot of other musical influences.
ROGERS (SINGING)
And she believes in me…
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
KENNY ROGERS HAS LED A LIFE OF LETTING THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY-
ROGERS (as The Gambler)
Make it five thousand
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
- MORE OFTEN THAN NOT HITTING THE JACKPOT.
ROGERS (SINGING)
You picked a fine time to leave me Lucille 2
Four hungry children, crops in the field
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
HIS SONGS ARE CLASSIC... HIS DUETS ARE MAGIC...
KENNY ROGERS & DOLLY PARTON (SINGING)
Islands in the stream That is what we are No one in between…
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
BUT TONIGHT YOU’LL MEET THE MAN BEHIND THE FAMOUS VOICE AND DISCOVER THERE’S A LOT MORE TO KENNY ROGERS THAN MEETS THE EYE.
RATHER How'd you get into photography?
ROGERS
I have a new category for any psychiatrists out there; I'm an impulsive obsessive.
ROGERS (SINGING)
Promise me son, not to do the things I’ve done…
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
AN ARTIST WITH MANY MUSES - KENNY ROGERS - TONIGHT ON THE BIG INTERVIEW.
ACT TWO
KENNY ROGERS (SINGING)
On a warm summer’s evenin’ On a train bound for nowhere I met with a gambler We were both too tired to sleep So we took turns a-starin’...
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
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FOR MORE THAN 50 YEARS KENNY ROGERS HAS BEEN PREACHING THE POWER OF MUSIC FROM HIS ONE-OF-A-KIND PULPIT.
ROGERS (SINGING)
You got to know when to hold ‘em Know when to fold ‘em...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
WHO CAN FORGET HITS LIKE THE GAMBLER?....
ROGERS (SINGING)
Know when to run…
KENNY ROGERS AND DOLLY PARTON (SINGING)
Islands in the stream That is what we are…
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
NOT TO MENTION THAT SIZZLING DUET WITH DOLLY PARTON...
ROGERS AND PARTON (SINGING) Sail away with me To another world And we rely on each other...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
ROGERS HAS SOLD MORE THAN 165 MILLION RECORDS WORLDWIDE...
ROGERS (SINGING)
Through the years, you’ve never let me down…
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
THIS GENRE-BUSTING STAR STRADDLED THE WORLDS OF COUNTRY AND POP LONG BEFORE IT WAS FASHIONABLE.
ROGERS (SINGING)
It won’t mean you’re weak… 4
ROGERS (as The Gambler)
Question is: which of the two of you are willing to take the bullets?
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
AND IT’S NOT JUST MUSIC -- HE’S AN ACTOR...
ROGERS (as The Gambler)
I’ve seen those same men blow their brains out...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
AND MORE RECENTLY AN ACCOMPLISHED PHOTOGRAPHER -- BUT KENNY ROGERS WILL TELL YOU HE’S JUST A STORYTELLER.
ROGERS (SINGING)
And you decorated my life Created a world...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
BORN INTO POVERTY, HE GOT HIS FIRST BREAK IN JAZZ WITH THE BOBBY DOYLE TRIO.
HE FOLLOWED THAT UP WITH A STINT IN THE FOLK GROUP THE NEW CHRISTY MINSTRELS. .
AND THEN HE FRONTED A ROCK AND ROLL GROUP CALLED THE FIRST EDITION...WHERE HE SANG HITS LIKE RUBY, DON’T TAKE YOUR LOVE TO TOWN
KENNY ROGERS AND THE FIRST EDITION (SINGING)
Oh, Ruby, don’t take your love to town...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
BUT IT WAS COUNTRY MUSIC CROSSOVER HITS LIKE LUCILLE THAT CATAPULTED ROGERS TO A NEW LEVEL OF FAME AND FORTUNE
ROGERS (SINGING)
You picked a fine time to leave me Lucille 5
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
IN NASHVILLE, HE IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF LIVING LEGEND... AND IN 2013 WAS INDUCTED INTO THE COUNTRY MUSIC HALL OF FAME - THAT’S WHERE I MET HIM RECENTLY TO HEAR THE TALE OF A MAN WHO GAMBLED ON THE MUSIC BUSINESS... AND WON.
RATHER
How are you doing?
KENNY ROGERS
I'm doing good.
RATHER
I really appreciate you doing this--
ROGERS
Oh--I'm happy to do it. My body's fallin' apart. (LAUGH) I don't have original working body parts. Other than--
RATHER
Tell me-- (LAUGH)
ROGERS
--that, I'm good. (LAUGH)
RATHER
Tell me about it.
ROGERS
Oh, man. How about you?
RATHER
Mine went a long time ago.
ROGERS 6
Mine-- mine's fallin' apart little by little, (LAUGH) you know?
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
AS WE SETTLED IN TO TALK, I KNEW WE HAD SOMETHING SPECIAL IN COMMON. WE ARE BOTH PROUD SONS OF HOUSTON, TEXAS - OH SO MANY YEARS AGO.
RATHER
Well, let's get started-- Kenny. I mean, first of all, tell me about-- tell me who you are. I mean, everybody knows Kenny Rogers, the singer, the legend-- Hall of Fame performer, who are you?
ROGERS
I think I'm-- I'm a product of my mother. And-- you know, I was born in the projects in Houston. And my mom-- gave-- she had a third grade education, but she had some of the most incredible wisdom. And you live and die by what you learn as a child, you know? 'Cause I remember she told me-- we used to go to church three times a week, down at the First Baptist Church, downtown. And I'd say, "Do we have to go three times a week?" And she said, "Son, you can never be anything more as an adult than what's put into you as a child, so we're goin' to church." So we did. But I mean, she-- the things like that, that she-- not only did she say 'em, but she said 'em with such succinctness, you know, that you really understood. And my dad was an alcoholic, but-- now that I'm older, I think I see why. You know, he came through the World War and he just didn't have a job. There was nothing he could do. I think he-- he got just depressed, that he had to deal with everyday life, and he wasn't dealing very well with it. He was a good man. I always say I got my sense of humor from my father and my sense of values from my mother.
RATHER
Well, your memoir is filled with sayings--
ROGERS
Yeah--
DAN RATHER -that the family gave you as a child? Of your mother's sayings, what is your favorite?
ROGERS
She told me-- she said, "Son, always be happy where you are. Never be content to be there, but if you're not happy where you are, you'll never be happy." And I thought that was-- you know, c-- when I was in the deep part of my-- the deepest part of my career, she said, "But you're still playin' music. That's all you ever wanted to do. Just relax. Enjoy where you are." 7
And so I think I've always been basically a happy person, and she also said, "You know, you'll be surprised how much people will do for someone they like and how much they won't do for someone they don't like." So, I-- I just thought that was a great piece of advice.
RATHER
You bet it is.
ROGERS
And I mean, she just-- she had a third grade education, but she was filled with all these little things and you-- you understood what she meant. She didn't run on for 20 minutes.
RATHER
And with your father, you said he had a great sense of humor?
ROGERS
Oh, he-- he-- he was-- he was one of those funny drunks, you know, that-- he-- he drank a lot, 'cause he would go out and try to find a job and couldn't find it. And h-- he'd get a job and he'd come back and hide his money, and it was a game between him and my mom. She would try to find it to buy groceries with it, and-- and she worked two or three jobs. She worked downtown at the Gulf Building, cleaning rooms. And she worked at the hospital. But-- all in all-- the-- the interesting thing is when I look back on my life in the projects, it was a happy childhood. You know, I had four brothers and three sisters, and we were all happy. We didn't know any difference. We didn't think-- we thought everybody was broke. And it was only after I started goin' to school and I don't think until then I realized that-- that we were on the lower rung. But it still didn't matter. You know, I still had a great time and think I had a great attitude.
RATHER
Well, you've mentioned a couple of times your mother had a third grade education. That was not that uncommon--
ROGERS
It wasn't uncommon. I mean, she had a bunch of brothers and sisters, too. And I think they all got about the same amount of education-- it didn't seem to hold her back any, nor-- nor any of the rest of us. All-- I was the first one in my family to graduate from high school. And I went to college. I thought I went two semesters. My mom said two weeks, so somewhere (LAUGH) between two weeks and two semesters. I mean, I-- I can't overemphasize how lucky I was to have had the childhood I've had. And even as a young adult, I played guitar, and I learned to play guitar-- downtown Houston, at H&H Music. I'd go in and they'd let me take a guitar off the rack. And guys would come in and say, "Lemme show you this chord." And that's how I learned to play. And I met this young kid named Bobby Doyle who was a great musician, a great singer, 8 and he was about a year younger than me, and he was blind. And he said, "I'm gonna start a jazz group and I want you to play bass." I said, "Bobby, I don't know how to play bass." He said, "I'll teach ya how to play bass and I'll tell ya a secret: there's more demand for bad bass players than bad guitar players." (LAUGH) And he was absolutely right, too.
DAN RATHER
Well, you mentioned that your mother's counsel to you when you reached the lowest point of your career-- in your music career, that hearing-- the echoes of her advice helped you. What was the lowest moment of your career?
KENNY ROGERS
I think indecision creates low moments. You have to be at point A to get to point B. And when the jazz group broke up-- Kirby Stone, who was the Kirby Stone Four at the time, he-- he was a big fan of mine. I mean, he just really believed in my talent. And he sent me to LA to join the New Christy Minstrels. So I went from jazz to folk music.
But you know, it was an interesting thing, 'cause I learned a lot in the Christies. I learned the value of a story song with social significance. And I think that was one of the things, with Ruby Don't Take Your Love To Town was about a Vietnam War vet. It comes on-- Reuben James is about a black man that raised a white child. Coward of the County was about a rape. All those things were story songs instead of just music. But that's what I learned from the Christies. But when the Christies broke up, the First Edition started, and it was-- it was great. We had a great time. But when the First Edition broke up, I didn't know where to go, because I'd been jazz, I'd been folk. And we were kinda country rock, but I didn't know anyone. So, I ended up goin' to Nashville, where Larry Butler, he really believed in me and he stood up for me.
But that period there-- there was about a-- it doesn't sound long now, but it was about three months where I didn't really have the money to get to Nashville even. And someone stole all my wardrobe out of my car, and the insurance company gave me $3,500, which was like a million dollars to me. So, I took off for Nashville then. But it was just-- I think when you get to a point of where you know you wanna go on but you don't know which road to take and you're afraid you'll take the wrong road, those are the scariest moments.
KENNY ROGERS (SINGING)
You got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em Know when to walk away and know when to run You never count your money...
ACT THREE
KENNY ROGERS (SINGING)
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And she believes in me I’ll never know just what she sees in me I told her someday if she was my girl…
DAN RATHER
I wanna go back-- you said your mother had you in church, at the First Baptist Church in Houston, three times a week?
ROGERS
Right.
RATHER
Is that where -- your first memory of hearing music of any kind, was it in church?
ROGERS
Absolutely. And my sister Geraldine, who was five years older than me-- I'm sitting, listening to the singing and the singing of the choir and singing with a-- out in the audience and I listened to her and she's singing harmony. I'd never heard harmony before and I said, "What are you singin'?" She said, "Well, that's called harmony, where you don't sing the melody but you sing something that sounds good with the melody." And I thought, "Oh, I'd like to do that. That sounds really good." So, that's where I learned to do that too.
RATHER
First hymn you can remember singing?
ROGERS
Old Rugged Cross.
RATHER
Right out of the Southern Baptist hymnal?
ROGERS
Oh, yeah. (LAUGH) They were all out of the Southern Baptist hymnal, I think.
RATHER
Mine was Just As I Am.
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ROGERS
Oh, yeah.
RATHER
So when you first came to Nashville, what happened?
ROGERS
I remember I walked into some-- I don't know what it would've been, but it was a big performance center there and didn't know anybody, just walked in. And it was full of people, and I remember hearing somebody on the stage say, "How about a nice round of applause for Billy Edwards? He had a hit in 1945," and the place went crazy. And I thought, "Boy, if they remember that, this is where I wanna be."
RATHER
You might have a shot?
ROGERS
I-- (LAUGH) and I wanted to be there, 'cause I had a longer life there than anywhere else.
RATHER AND ROGERS (singing)
You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille With four hungry children, crops in the field...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
WHEN I MET KENNY ROGERS IN NASHVILLE, THE COUNTRY MUSIC HALL OF FAME WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF ASSEMBLING A SPECIAL EXHIBIT DOCUMENTING A LONG AND STORIED CAREER - A LIFE BIGGER THAN ANY ONE MUSICAL GENRE.
ROGERS
And so now we’re getting into Lionel Richie and the things I did with him…
RATHER
It’s gotta be a thrill for you, no matter how many times you walk in here
ROGERS
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Oh, yeah, of course it is. I mean, it -- you know, this is what most people aim for all their life and coming from where I came from, I would’ve never aimed for this but I’m glad it happened. I’m glad it happened, you know, for my kids’ sakes. You know, I think -- the great thing is songs come and go but the Hall of Fame is forever -- and that’s an interesting place, you know?
ROGERS (SINGING)
Lady, I’m your knight in shining armor and I love you You have made me what I am and I am yours...
RATHER
Insofar as you can define it, define Kenny Rogers' music for me?
ROGERS
I'm a country singer with a lot of other musical influences. I started out-- when I was 12-years- old, with my-- my sister-- my mother made her take me on her date 'cause she didn't like the guy she was going with and she made her take me and we went to see Ray Charles. And I remember sitting there and listening to him and saying, "Wow." People laughed at everything he said. They clapped for everything he sang, and I thought, "I wanna do that." And at 12, I didn't even know I could sing. I read an article that said, "A tremendous amount of men decide what they wanna do with their life between the ages of 12 and 15." I guess you're coming into puberty. You say, "I wanna be an astronaut, I wanna be a fireman, I wanna be this." Well, I wanted to be a musician at that point. And it was-- I think a key turning point in my life.
RATHER
What makes a Kenny Rogers song?
ROGERS
I-- I've always looked for two types of songs. I look for, as I've said, a-- story song that has social significance to it. Country music is the white man's rhythm and blues. It's where all the pain is and a-- country song would tell you where you were on a warm summer's evenin' on a train bound for nowhere, or in a bar in Toledo. It would take you through an experience and drop you off with a feeling. That's what they did. And I looked for those story songs that had social significance and I also, because of my jazz training, looked for love songs that said what every man would like to say and every woman would like to hear. And if you look at Through the Years, She Believes in Me, You Decorated My Life, Buy Me a Rose, all those things-- Lady-- I think they all do that.
RATHER
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I'd agree. And I think anyone who hears the music would agree. I want to get back to the-- you're a storyteller; you particularly like to tell stories with your music, stories of social significance...
ROGERS
Yeah.
RATHER
...many of which were very controversial, particularly in the context of that time. I'm thinking about-- Reuben James-- Ruby, Don't Take Your Love To Town. My question is at the time, did you think these songs were as controversial as a lot of other people?
ROGERS
I-- I wasn't trying to make a social statement. I-- I was-- wasn't as concerned about a statement as awareness. And the delicacy of some of these issues-- Reuben James, about a black man who raised a white child, and how much the white child loved this black man, and I just thought it was a wonderful thing to acknowledge.
KENNY ROGERS AND THE FIRST EDITION (SINGING)
And although your skin was black You were the one that didn’t turn your back On the hungry white child with no name, Reuben James. Reuben James, with your mind on my soul And the Bible in your right hand You said, “Turn the other cheek, there’s a better world waitin’ for the meek…”
RATHER
But you saw yourself as a storyteller, not as a social justice activist?
ROGERS
Yeah, I-- I've never seen myself as a singer, to start with. So, you have to have something to sell--
RATHER
Wait a minute. Kenny Rogers, you've never seen yourself as a singer?
ROGERS Never.
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RATHER
One of the most successful--
ROGERS
Never--
RATHER
--singers of this or any other generation?
ROGERS
And I-- I think it's-- because of the songs I've chosen. I believe that a lot of people could've done those same songs and been successful with 'em. I guess it comes back from the insecurity of-- of my youth, to not understanding what it is that made me successful other than my choice of music.
RATHER
Well, by the way-- you were talking about opportunities missed, opportunities seized-- I wanna check this story, I think you've written about this, and that is-- The Gambler, which turned out to be a reasonably successful--
ROGERS
Oh, yeah. (LAUGH)
RATHER
That Johnny Cash recorded the song at-- at or about the same time-- maybe the same--
ROGERS
The same day.
RATHER
You're kidding me?
ROGERS
Yeah.
RATHER 14
And the New York Times reviewed his version of it, favorably, but yours became the megahit, maybe one of the all-time great hits?
ROGERS
Yeah, and I don't think it has anything to do with talent. I think at that point, it's the record company. I think I may have had a stronger record company, or they needed to get a hit with me to pay for my sessions. But I think it was timely, and I think I believed in the song. I try to take people on this journey with me and I think it's that-- first of all, The Gambler-- Don Schlitz, who wrote that, doesn't gamble at all. He just heard those expressions and he wrote the song, and-- and it's a philosophy of life to him, of knowing when to get into somethin', when to get out of it, and when to stay completely away from it.
RATHER
How ironic--
ROGERS
It is.
RATHER
The guy who wrote the song, by far the most successful song about gambling ever written, but he didn't gamble?
ROGERS
Doesn't gamble at all. I don't, either. I-- I found out I can't win enough to excite me, but I can lose enough to depress me. (LAUGH) So I stay away from it.
RATHER
Did you go through a period where you gambled a lot?
ROGERS
I never gambled heavy. I'd go play a couple of hundred dollars here, a couple of hundred dollars there, but you know, coming from where I came from, that was a-- couple of hundred dollars I remembered I hadn't had before.
RATHER
Well, you mentioned you didn't gamble, you didn't drink and smoke, but you did, quote, "hustle the girls," quote unquote?
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ROGERS
Yeah.
RATHER
So--
ROGERS
This is my fifth marriage. I'm not afraid of commitment.
RATHER
Well, I was hesitating to ask you, but it’s -- fifth marriage?
ROGERS
Yeah. Wanda knows about the other four, though. That's--
RATHER
Well, let's talk about it. You got married first-- when you were still in your teens?
ROGERS
Right. Right outta high school. And then I got married about two years later, and then I got married about three years later and I stayed married for ten years. And you know, I wrote in my- - in my book that I think when you're young-- and you have a goal in your life, there's a fine line between being driven and being selfish, and I think I crossed that line a few times.
RATHER
Music was your mistress?
ROGERS
Yeah--
RATHER
And a jealous mistress?
ROGERS
Of course. 16
RATHER
Jealous for time?
ROGERS
Well, if you don't take care of it, somebody else will, you know? I mean, that's the problem in this business. It's very competitive and it's not local. You know, it's like I travel all over the world. I've been to-- to Morocco. I've been to London. I've been to-- Ireland, all those places, this year, and in January I, go to Australia for two weeks.
RATHER
It raises the question, why do you do-- still do it? You don't need the money. You don’t need the fame.
ROGERS
Success is no reason to quit. You know, it really-- it makes it more fun. People ask me, "Do you get tired of doing your hits when you onstage?" I said, "No. I don't wanna be the guy that goes out there without 'em." You know, I-- I love doing 'em
RATHER
Do you sing Gambler every concert?
ROGERS
Oh, yes. That's dangerous, not to do that. I think there's a group of seven or eight that I have to do, that I--
RATHER
Let's go down that list, the seven or eight that you feel you have to do?
ROGERS
Yeah, I think I have to do Through The Years, She Believes in Me, You Decorated My Life. I have to do-- The Gambler, Lucille, Lady, Islands in the Stream and there's a couple more in there somewhere.
RATHER
I've run across artists-- for example, Willie Nelson. It's not a Willie Nelson concert if he doesn't sing Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain--
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ROGERS
But it's true. You know, I went to see Ray Charles and he didn't do Georgia on my Mind and I was mad. You know, that's what I paid for. People don't wanna hear new music, and I'll tell you why. An audience has to work very hard when you do a new song. They have to say, "Do I like the song? Do I agree with what it says? Do I like the way he does it?" You know, and by that time, the song's over and they haven't had a chance to enjoy it. When you do a hit, they become a part of the show. ROGERS (IN CONCERT)
Really sing it out now! You picked a fine time…
AUDIENCE ...to leave me, Lucille.
ROGERS (IN CONCERT)
Oh, that’s much better! Yes! With four hungry children…
AUDIENCE
Four hungry children and crops in the field.
ROGERS (IN CONCERT)
I’ve had some bad times!
AUDIENCE
I’ve had some bad times.
ROGERS (IN CONCERT)
Lived through some sad times. This time we’re eating oatmeal.
AUDIENCE This time we’re eating oatmeal.
ROGERS (IN CONCERT)
They sang that! Big finish everybody! You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille.
ACT FOUR
KENNY ROGERS AND WILLIE NELSON (SINGING) 18
I never saw the sun shinin’ so bright Never saw things goin’ so right Noticing the days, hurrying by….
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
KENNY ROGERS MAY HAVE AN ICONIC VOICE, BUT THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER HE HAS ENJOYED WEAVING IT WITH OTHERS – SUCH AS HERE WITH WILLIE NELSON. BUT THE LIST OF DUETS IN ROGERS’ REPERTOIRE IS LONG...AND ILLUSTRIOUS.
KENNY ROGERS AND KIM CARNES (SINGING)
Don’t fall in love with a dreamer...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
THERE WAS THE HIT DON’T FALL IN A LOVE WITH A DREAMER SUNG WITH KIM CARNES...
KENNY ROGERS AND SHEENA EASTON (SINGING)
We’ve got tonight Who needs tomorrow? We’ve got tonight babe...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
ROGERS TOPPED THE COUNTRY CHARTS WITH SHEENA EASTON FOR WE’VE GOT TONIGHT
KENNY ROGERS AND SHEENA EASTON (SINGING)
We’ve got tonight babe Why don’t we stay?
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
HE AND DOTTIE WEST TEAMED UP FOR EVERY TIME TWO FOOLS COLLIDE
KENNY ROGERS AND DOTTIE WEST (SINGING)
To keep our hearts from breaking Every time two fools collide…
RATHER (VOICE OVER) 19
AND IT WASN’T JUST FEMALE PARTNERS…
KENNY ROGERS AND RONNIE MILSAP (SINGING)
But don’t get too close when you dance…
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
ROGERS WON A GRAMMY FOR MAKE NO MISTAKE, SHE’S MINE WITH RONNIE MILSAP.
KENNY ROGERS AND DOLLY PARTON (SINGING)
Islands in the stream that is what we are No one in between, how can we be wrong? Sail away with me…
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
AND THEN OF COURSE... THERE’S DOLLY PARTON.
KENNY ROGERS AND DOLLY PARTON (SINGING)
And we rely on each other, uh huh...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
THEIR WORLDWIDE NUMBER ONE HIT, ISLANDS IN THE STREAM HAS BECOME ONE OF ROGERS’ SIGNATURE SONGS.
RATHER
Islands in the Stream, you recorded that as a duet with Dolly Parton?
ROGERS
I did.
RATHER
Tell me about that, because there's obviously been something special going on between you and Dolly Parton?
ROGERS
20
Well, something special, but not what it sounds like. Islands in the Stream was written by Barry Gibb of the Bee Gees. And he brought me this song. He didn't write it for me. He wrote it for an R&B singer that didn't do it and he-- and he brought it to me and he said, "I really wanna do this." So, I had a recording studio in LA at the time and we-- I sang that song for four days, and I finally just said, "Barry, I don't even like this song anymore." And he said, I swear it was like an epiphany: "We need Dolly Parton." And I thought, "Well"-- I had met Dolly but I didn't really know her and Ken Kragen, who was my manager, said, "I just saw her downstairs." I said, "Well, go get her and let's see if she likes it." Well, as only Dolly can do, she marched in the room and once she came in, the song was never the same. I mean, it was really that different when she sang with me than when I sang it by myself. It had a different meaning, a different set of values to it and musically, it was so much better.
ROGERS AND PARTON (SINGING)
‘Cause that won’t happen to us and we got no doubt Too deep in love and we got no way out And the message is clear This could be the year for the real thing
PARTON (SINGING)
No more will you cry...
RATHER
Now you-- you raised this subject-- by saying, "Listen, we have a special relationship, Dolly Parton and I, but it's not what you think"?
ROGERS
Right.
RATHER
You and I have been al-- around a long time, Kenny. Neither one of us just tumbled off the turnip truck.
ROGERS
I did. I just fell...
RATHER
Are you telling me nothing romantic with Dolly Parton?
ROGERS 21
I'm telling you from the bottom of my heart-- I met her husband first of all. And I was married to Marianne through that whole time. But what we did is we flirted with each other for 30 years, and it was much more electric. I think once you consummate a relationship like that, it loses something and she and I both believe that theory, so we did some massive flirting in front of the nation, but there was never anything more than that.
RATHER
Well, I can say my by firsthand experience, I mean this in no self-serving way, when Dolly Parton decides to flirt, she knows flirting -- as well as music?
ROGERS
You know-- I-- I love her. You have no -- you know, 'cause the thing with Dolly, and I don't know whether she likes this expression or not, but we just did a new song called You Can't Make Old Friends that was written for us by Don Schlitz, who wrote The Gambler. And it was written for us about our relationship and our career and it's wonderful and it's very touching. It's like, "What will I do when you're gone?" And it goes into all this stuff, you know, “when Saint Peter opens the gate” -- and it's very touching. And in the middle of the song, Dolly comes over and puts her-- my theory is that Dolly has no filter. If it goes in her mind, it comes out her mouth. You know, she doesn't stop to think, "Maybe I shouldn't say that." But she came over and put her arms around my-- around me and she said, "Kenny, I just want you to know something. I could never sing at your funeral," and I was like-- "So we're assuming I'm goin' first? Is that what you're saying?" But she just-- that's what's so wonderful about her. If she thinks it, she says it. You know what's on her mind. But she's-- she's a wonderful girl and we'll go three or four years without seeing each other. I mean, every night someone asks me, "Where's Dolly?" You know, like we talk every day. And I'm just gonna start givin' 'em her home phone number and say, "Call her and ask her where she is," (LAUGH) you know? She's a sweetheart.
RATHER
Well, speaking of the duet-- duets, plural, with Dolly Parton, you've said you think you sing better when it's-- when you sing with other people? Tell me about that?
ROGERS
I think everybody does. You know, it's kinda like runnin' the hundred yard dash. You get out and you run it as fast as you think you can, but they put someone alongside you who runs it faster than you do and you'll inevitably run faster. It's like I'll go in and I'll sing my part, and then Dolly or someone will come in and sing, and they'll do a better job than that and I’ll say, "Wait a minute, I wanna redo my part." An-- and then you inevitably-- I get better, she gets better, I get better, she gets better. But I think that's the beauty of duets. You see sides of people you don't see in their normal songs.
ROGERS (SINGING) 22
We all know the show must go on
ROGERS AND PARTON (SINGING)
But you can’t make old friends
PARTON (SINGING)
No, no
ROGERS AND PARTON (SINGING)
You can’t make old friends. You can’t make old friends. And you and me, we’ll be young again ‘Cause you can’t make old friends.
PARTON (SINGING)
You and me
ROGERS (SINGING)
We’ll be together again
PARTON
‘Cause we both know
ROGERS
We’ll still be old friends
ACT FIVE
KENNY ROGERS (SINGING)
You’re a hell of a singer and a powerful man But you surround yourself with people who demand so little of you You touched my soul with your beautiful song You even had me singin’ along right with you...
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
23
KENNY ROGERS MAY HAVE FIRST EARNED FAME AS A SINGER BUT HIS CAREER HAS HAD MANY OTHER HIGHLIGHTS...
ROGERS (SINGING)
On a warm summer’s evening On a train bound for nowhere…
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
HIS HIT SONG THE GAMBLER SPAWNED A SERIES OF FIVE TV MOVIES...
ROGERS (as The Gambler)
How much money you got?
BRUCE BOXLEITNER (as Billy Montana)
‘Bout three hundred dollars.
ROGERS (as The Gambler)
This won’t take long.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
AND HIS COMEDIC TALENTS WERE RECENTLY SHOWCASED IN A GEICO COMMERCIAL.
ROGERS (in GEICO commercial)
(SINGING) You got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away, know when to run, you never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the ta --
(TALKING) What? You get it.
ACTOR (in GEICO commercial)
I get the gist, yeah.
ROGERS (in GEICO commercial)
Yeah, okay. 24
ANNOUNCER (in GEICO commercial)
Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance.
ROGERS
I took this out on the road with me and I shot some of my first landscapes with this. That’s what Ansel Adams shot with.
RATHER
Whoa.
ROGERS
And I realized that’s not for me, that’s more like work.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
HE’S ALSO AN ACCLAIMED PHOTOGRAPHER, A HOBBY THAT BECAME A PASSION LATER IN LIFE. HE’S PHOTOGRAPHED EVERYTHING FROM LANDSCAPES…TO CELEBRITY PORTRAITS.
ROGERS
He was easy to photograph for lack of a better term...
RATHER
How'd you get into photography?
ROGERS
I-- I-- I have a new category for any psychiatrists out there; I'm an impulsive obsessive. You know-- I'd never played tennis 'til I was 35-years-old. Once I started playing, I hired a tennis pro, took him to every city with me, we played eight hours a day, and I've played with 45 Wimbledon champions. You know, just socially, but-- held my own. And I developed a national ranking in doubles. And-- then I got to where I just couldn't do it anymore, you know, it was more-- demanding than I was capable or willing to put out, so I stumbled into photography. And when I-- once I did that, I met a guy named-- John Sexton, who was Ansel Adams' assistant for four years. So I hired him to come out and go with me, and he taught me Ansel Adams' whole concept of the zone system. And it's like once I decide I wanna do something, I then wanna see how good I can be at it. And once I feel like I can do it-- I mean, I was given this last year by the Professional Photographers' Association-- I was given an honorary master degree of photography-- 25
RATHER
Almost as good as being named to the Country Music Hall of Fame?
ROGERS
Almost as-- it is, in fact, it's a photographers' hall of fame, so to speak. But it's-- you know, it's-- those accolades are wonderful and in all fairness, the Hall of Fame thing-- I've had the credentials for it for years, but honestly, I'm glad-- I-- I went-- sat in the-- Grand Ole Opry dressing room and I looked around at the pictures in there, with Minnie Pearl and Little Jimmy Dickens and I thought, "I don't belong in this crowd." And-- and that was-- out of respect for them, not out of-- of-- appreciation for me. I-- I thought-- "You're-- you're right." I was wrong for this. I'd had success, but I didn't belong in that group. But you know-- it's-- it's funny how things change, because now country music has gone so far left that I'm almost a center post. And-- and-- I-- I'm thrilled by it and I'm glad it happened now, rather than at the peak of my career, 'cause you know-- when you're in the fast lane, a lot of things happen. And I didn't-- I'm glad it didn't happen then because I don't think I could've appreciated it as much as I do now. My twin boys can go, my older boys can go. My brothers and sisters can come, and it does mean a lot to me.
STEVIE WONDER (SINGING)
There are people dying
PAUL SIMON (SINGING)
Oh, and it’s time to lend a hand to life
KENNY ROGERS AND PAUL SIMON (SINGING)
The greatest gift of all
ROGERS (SIGNING)
We can’t go on, pretending day by day
JAMES INGRAM (SINGING)
That someone, somewhere will soon make a change...
RATHER
Tell me about the We Are The World Project, how you got into it, what it was.
ROGERS 26
Well, Ken Kragen I think was one-- he was my manager. I think he was one of the producers of it. And-- Lionel Ritchie and I were good friends, and Michael Jackson and I were good friends. So when they started putting it together, they were-- and I was at the peak of my career. But boy, when I walked in that room and saw all those people, that was very humbling, very quickly. But it was-- a wonderful piece of music. An-- and if you listen to it, it was-- for a world that was so downtrodden, it was really very uplifting. You know, and it-- and it was saying in so many words, "We can do this, but we have to do it together." But I-- I-- that was one of the great experiences of my life, and I have-- I think it's gonna be on display here. I have one of the few sheets of music that I got everybody to sign. I started off doin' that, and Diana Ross came right behind me and we got-- we got everybody to sign it.
KENNY ROGERS AND ALL STAR CHORUS (SINGING)
We are the world We are the children We are the ones to make a brighter day So let’s start givin’
ROGERS
I-- I think they must've raised over $100 million for that--
RATHER
Oh, they raised a lot of money --
ROGERS
--for that project.
RATHER
By the way, you mentioned Michael Jackson. What are your best memories of Michael Jackson?
ROGERS
Well, he and I-- you know, I did a photography book called Your Friends and Mine. And-- I had a building in LA and a studio in it. Once I got Elizabeth Taylor and Michael Jackson, people were calling me to be in it. And the reason I think I got so many people, like George Burns and Lucille Ball and Gregory Peck and-- and all of these guys is that I promised everybody they'd be in and out in 15 minutes, 'cause I was shooting an eight-by-ten format. So you have to have a separate piece of film for every shot. I said, "I'll shoot two colors and two black-and-whites, and if you don't like what I get, we just won't put it in the book." Well, Michael-- I said, you know, "You'll be in and out in 15 minutes." He stayed eight hours. He came over and he brought Bubbles, his chimpanzee with him and we sat and talked. And I think when you get-- it's like 27
Elvis. When you get to that status, you don't have a lot of people you can just talk to. You know, I found that with President Reagan. I mean, President Reagan wanted to chit-chat with me. You know, and it was so weird. Like-- "Why me?" You know, but it was-- it's really interesting. I think once you reach that superstardom-- 'cause-- I mean, I-- Elvis once told me-- he said-- I-- I said, "I'm gonna run out and play some blackjack." He said, "You don't know what I'd give to play blackjack with ya." I said, "Come on." I thought I could talk him into it, and Colonel Parker had him, and I think rightfully so-- that he would be hurt if he went out there and he probably would have. Well, that was the same thing with Michael. He couldn't go anywhere. He couldn't be a person. And-- and-- and we talked about-- I shot the first pictures of him with a hat, because I think he was gonna have some surgery done and he wanted to see if the shadows would cover it. And they're beautiful pictures. Some, no one's ever seen before.
RATHER
What's the most interesting photograph you've ever taken?
ROGERS
I took one in Joplin, Missouri and it was a house that was mostly torn down. And there was a sign on the wall that said, "I lost my mom"-- at this address -- "She's in heaven with Jesus and Johnny Cash." And I just thought that was such a wonderful thing. And it's just a little house. But you know-- th-- different pictures tafe on-- take on different meanings to you. I-- I've taken pictures of Stonehenge. I've-- you know, so-- it's-- it's hard to-- I took a picture of a guy-- I actually ended up writing a song about it. He lived in a box in New York City and he-- he called himself "Mike in the Box." And Richard Marx and I wrote a song, When All You've Got Is Love. And we started looking at him retrospectively, saying, "You know, he must've been happy at one time. He must've had people who loved him, and now he's here, living in this box. And it’s sad, but really you've got a lot, when yo-- all you've got is love." And it's a pretty cool song. I was just listening to it this morning, as a matter of fact.
GEORGE CANYON (SINGING)
Saw a man out on the street today His whole life in a box Someone must have loved him once Right now, he just feels lost I don’t know where he’s heading Can’t tell where he’s been God, I wish that I could say to him You could start your life again...
RATHER
I've-- I've spoken recently to Loretta Lynn-- Merle Haggard, both whom ha-- have written a lot of songs. They're great songwriters, in addition to being great song singers, if you will. Where do you fit as a songwriter, in-- by your own estimation? 28
ROGERS
I think I'm a specific songwriter, and I'll explain that in a minute. I-- most great songwriters need to write. I don't need to write. You put me in a room with songwriters, I can hold my own. I'll offer something. I'll contribute, and it'll be worthwhile. I believe that. I've written along with a couple of friends of mine some wonderful stuff, but I'm more emotional. I'm more-- even seasonal. I'm very Christmas-oriented. You know, I wrote a one-act play with s-- a friend of mine, Kelly Junkerman, and we did about 14 songs for it. It's called The Toy Shoppe, and it's based on a true story. And we did it on Broadway for three months. And then we did it on-- on our Christmas tour for three years. It's a one-act play. But we wrote some really wonderful, touching songs in that, and-- and I'm very proud of that. So, I know I can write, but like I said, I don't really have a-- need to write.
KENNY ROGERS (SINGING)
Love, believe in love And that is what I have with you It’s love!
ACT SIX
KENNY ROGERS (SINGING)
You’ve painted up your lips and rolled and curled your tinted hair…
DAN RATHER
All right, well let’s see, lemme get an arm around Kenny...
ROGERS (SINGING)
Ruby are you contemplating going out somewhere…
RATHER
Thank you, thank you.
ROGERS
Hi, how are you?
FAN
Hello 29
ROGERS
Hi, how you doing? How are you? She has no idea who I am.
LITTLE BOY
She’s my sister.
ROGERS
Don’t say anything; she has no idea who I am. Do you have any idea who I am?
LITTLE BOY
No.
ROGERS
Oh man!
I walked through here yesterday and I found stuff that I remembered and stuff that I didn’t know existed and stuff that wasn’t even mine, I was takin’ credit for stuff that wasn’t even mine. I do remember wearin’ that with The First Edition so you can I was - we were way behind our times… These are some awards that they’re gonna put on display. It’s called a Diamond Award. It’s for having sold 10 million of one album. I think I really sh - am supposed to have two of those…. So I come here -- I come here yesterday and I go to pick it up. Now, I don’t bother to read this so I go to pick it up--
RATHER
And this says, “Caution.”
ROGERS
--Yeah, comes in three parts. I pick it up and the diamond falls off and the bottom falls -- And they asked me not to touch anything else after that. That’s The Gambler outfits. Here was my holster and my hat… Now look at this, first of all, you have to know that we did the original commercials for the Alcoa pop top cans. Hello…. Dan’s going into the Hall of Fame...
RATHER
Kenny, when people see the exhibit at the Hall of Fame, what do you want them to come away thinking about you, after they've seen the exhibits, you think perhaps they didn't know before they came into it? ROGERS 30
"Damn, he musta been busy." (LAUGH) There's a lot of stuff in there. I kinda walked through it yesterday, and I-- there's some clothes in there I can't believe I wore. But they're on my clothes rack, (LAUGHTER) so I musta bought 'em, whether I wore 'em or not.
But I mean, I think that-- I-- I go back to my statement before. I have had a great life, and I don't feel like I really did it at anyone's expense, other than-- and I-- I will qualify this. I think I was selfish in some of my marriages, that I was gone so much that no marriage, no matter how good or bad, could survive. And I think to that extent, that was selfish. But I don't consider myself a selfish person. I think there've been selfish periods in my life, but I'm-- I'm-- I'm-- I'm getting better.
RATHER
Getting better. Tell me one thing that you think's important to know about you that you suspect most people don't know. ROGERS
Gosh, I don't know. I'm such an open book, because-- my theory is if-- if you hide it, everybody's gonna dig it up. And if you tell 'em, nobody cares... So I just tell 'em everything, you know? It's like-- I-- I don't know what there is that people don't know, truly.
RATHER
Well, what makes you laugh?
ROGERS
Warm humor, as opposed to blatant, over-the-top stuff. Unique things, like I-- I got a thing in the mail the other day that said, "Seven jokes you can tell in church." (LAUGH) And I thought they were really funny. One of 'em was, "You know, my dad writes some words on a piece of paper, and they give him $50. They call 'im a poet." And the other guy said, "Well, my dad writes words on a paper and they give him $100. They call him a songwriter." And the other kid said, "Well, my dad writes some words on a piece of paper and they call him a-- they call it a sermon, and it takes eight people to collect all the money for 'im." Well, (LAUGHTER) I just think that's funny, you know, 'cause it-- it's-- it's true, but it's-- yeah, I-- I like things that make me stop and think. And then I go, "Oh, that's pretty funny." I like that.
RATHER
That is pretty funny.
ROGERS
It is--
RATHER 31
And I like--
ROGERS
You know--
RATHER
--the idea of-- what was-- eight jokes you can tell in church.
ROGERS
Yeah.
RATHER
Pretty hard to think--
ROGERS
And they were-- they were really cute-- c-- there-- there's on in there about-- this policeman stops this lady for going over-- she's doin' 25 miles an hour. And he says, "Sweetheart, you can't drive that slow on this street." She said, "Well, there's the speed limit right there." He said, "That's the highway number, that's not the speed limit." And he says, "Are all the girls okay in there?" She said, "Well, they will be. We just came off of 135," (LAUGH) so-- those kind of things I think are really funny.
RATHER
And what makes you cry?
ROGERS
My age, in that my boys are ten-years-old. I wanna be around long enough to impart some of my mom's wisdom. You know-- like, I let 'em watch Cops with me on television. And Wanda says, "I can't believe you let 'em." I said, "Lemme show you somethin'," 'cause I showed 'em-- "Watch every one of those episodes. Why do those people get in trouble? It's either alcohol or drugs. If you don't learn anything else from me, don't do drugs, don't drink alcohol." So, three days later I'm talkin' to 'em and I said, "Watch. So guys, what do we learn from Cops?" "Don't drink drugs." I said, "Okay. (LAUGH) We're off to a good start." But I mean, it's-- it's sad because I'd like to see what they become, you know? And-- and I-- I have-- they're ten-years-old now. And they're like little football players. But when they walk into a place they've never been before, they hold hands, at ten-years-old. They're still their support system. And I think there's somethin' so sweet about that. My wife's an identical twin, and these kids are identical. I mean, unless you know-- know 'em, you can't tell 'em apart. 32
RATHER
Well, I would think-- I haven't seen the insurance actuarial tables lately, but I would think your chances of living to see th-- your sons graduate from college are pretty good.
ROGERS
Well, I'll be 76, August the 21st. You know, we did a TV show called My First 50 Years, and the insinuation is there would be a second, but I don't like my chances (LAUGH) of that. But you know, I-- I would hope-- more importantly, if I go, I go fast. I don't wanna linger. I don't wanna have someone puttin' tubes in me and taking care of me. I don't want the boys to see me like that. I mean, I'd rather go out quick and have 'em say, "Oh, my dad's gone," and whatever happens then. But that's the thing that bothers me the most. In my life, that's the one thing that can really choke me up, is thinking about-- 'cause I see 'em and I watch 'em, and I go, "Oh my God. I-- I wonder what they're gonna be when they get grown, and I won't be here for that." But you don't think about that when you're having kids. You know, Wanda was half my age when we got married. I was 56 and she was 28. And everybody said it wouldn't work, and we've been married-- been together 22 years, been married 17 years. And we're happy-- as happy now as we've ever been. And-- at some point along the way, we both came to the conclusion that we didn't want her to miss her childbearing years. I didn't want her to get old and say, "I wish I hadn't married him. I could have kids today." So we had kids, and-- I'm not sure it was a great idea, but we have 'em. (LAUGH) But it-- they're-- they're-- they're my life. You know, and my two older boys are so wonderful, and they love having little brothers. So-- that family unit is pretty cool.
RATHER
Kenny, you've been so generous with your time and giving of yourself. What question have I not asked you that I should've asked you?
ROGERS
You know-- I-- I love my wife, I love my family, I love my life, and I love my music.
RATHER
Kenny, thank you.
ROGERS
Good to see ya--
RATHER
Thank you, good to see you-- 33
ROGERS
That's a Houston handshake if I've ever seen one--
RATHER
That's a Houston handshake. (LAUGHTER)
END TRANSCRIPT