Tird Session, 41st Parliament

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON CROWN CORPORATIONS

Vancouver Tursday, January 31, 2019 Issue No. 12

BOWINN MA, MLA, CHAIR

ISSN 1499-4194

MEMBERSHIP Crown Corporations

Chair: (–Lonsdale, NDP)

Deputy Chair: (Surrey South, BC Liberal)

Members: (Vancouver–West End, NDP) Jas Johal (Richmond-Queensborough, BC Liberal) (Delta North, NDP) (Kamloops–North Tompson, BC Liberal) (Saanich North and the Islands, BC Green Party) (Surrey–Green Timbers, NDP) (–Sea to Sky, BC Liberal)

Clerk: Susan Sourial

CONTENTS

Tursday, January 31, 2019 Page

Presentations on Transportation Network Services ...... 199 Vancouver police department J. Rice Justice Institute of B.C. H. Randhawa Alejandro Henao A. Henao Steven Hill S. Hill Clark Lim C. Lim B.C. Federation of Labour L. Cronk San Francisco County Transportation Authority J. Castiglione Lyf J. Okpaku Garland Chow G. Chow

Other Business...... 261

MINUTES Select Standing Committee on Crown Corporations

Tursday, January 31, 2019 9:00 a.m. Room C150, UBC Robson Square 800 Robson Street, Vancouver, B.C.

Present: Bowinn Ma, MLA (Chair); Stephanie Cadieux, MLA (Deputy Chair); Spencer Chandra Herbert, MLA; Jas Johal, MLA; Ravi Kahlon, MLA; Peter Milobar, MLA; Adam Olsen, MLA; Rachna Singh, MLA; Jordan Sturdy, MLA

1. Te Chair called the Committee to order at 9:03 a.m. 2. Opening remarks by Bowinn Ma, MLA, Chair. 3. Te following witnesses appeared before the Committee and answered questions: 1) Vancouver Police Department Sgt. Jef Rice 4. Te Committee recessed from 9:34 a.m. to 9:40 a.m. 2) Justice Institute of Joan Glover Harry Randhawa 3) Dr. Alejandro Henao 5. Te Committee recessed from 11:17 a.m. to 11:25 a.m. 4) Steven Hill 6. Te Committee recessed from 12:01 p.m. to 1:02 p.m. 5) Clark Lim 6) BC Federation of Labour Laird Cronk Denise Mofatt 7) San Francisco County Transportation Authority Joe Castiglione 8) Lyf Joseph Okpaku 9) Garland Chow 7. Te Committee discussed questions to be posed to ICBC, Public Transportation Board and RoadSafetyBC. 8. Te Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair at 5:12 p.m. Bowinn Ma, MLA Susan Sourial Chair Clerk Assistant — Committees and Interparliamentary Relations

199

THURSDAY, JANUARY 31, 2019 S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Stephanie Cadieux, MLA, Surrey South. Te committee met at 9:03 a.m. S. Chandra Herbert: Spencer Chandra Herbert, MLA, [B. Ma in the chair.] Vancouver–West End, Coal Harbour.

B. Ma (Chair): Good morning, everybody. My name is R. Singh: Rachna Singh, MLA, Surrey–Green Timbers. Bowinn Ma. I’m the MLA for North Vancouver–Lonsdale and the Chair of the Select Standing Committee on Crown R. Kahlon: Ravi Kahlon, MLA, Delta North. Corporations. I’d like to begin by recognizing that our meet- ing today takes place in the traditional territory of the A. Olsen: Adam Olsen, MLA, Saanich North and the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh peoples. Islands. We are an all-party parliamentary committee of the Legis- lative Assembly with a mandate to examine, inquire into and B. Ma (Chair): Assisting the committee today are Susan make recommendations on regulations regarding transport- Sourial and Stephanie Raymond from the Parliamentary ation network services in British Columbia. We must issue a Committees Ofce. Steve Weisgerber and Simon DeLaat report by March 31, 2019. Te committee is meeting to hear from Hansard Services are also here to record the proceed- from expert witnesses on the following four questions: ings. Tank you so much for being here. (1) What criteria should be considered when establishing On behalf of the committee, I’d like to thank the pres- boundaries? enters who have taken the time to be with us today and (2) How should regulations balance the supply of service would like to introduce our frst presenter. First up we have with consumer demand, including the application of the Sgt. Jef Rice from the Vancouver police department, who Passenger Transportation Board’s current public conveni- will be joining us by teleconference. ence and necessity regime as it pertains to transportation Jef, do you have any questions before we begin? network services? (3) What criteria should be considered when establishing J. Rice: I don’t. I just have to say that I don’t have a price and fare regimes that balance afordability with reason- 25-minute presentation. It’s going to be relatively short. I’ve able business rates of return for service providers? just got some short answers to the questions that were posed. (4) What class of driver’s licence should be required for ride-hailing drivers to ensure a robust safety regime without B. Ma (Chair): Absolutely. creating an undue barrier for drivers? [9:05 a.m.] J. Rice: Ten I’ll be available for questions. In addition to the witnesses that you will hear from today and the witnesses that you heard from yesterday, over 700 B. Ma (Chair): Tat is no problem. Being succinct is not organizations — including municipalities; First Nations; taxi an issue here. All right. Please proceed. Ten we will follow companies; ride-hailing companies, including transporta- up with 20 minutes, plus whatever time you’ve lef from your tion network services; and disability advocacy organizations presentation, for questions. Go ahead. — have been invited to make written submissions covering these four questions. All of the information received will Presentations on be carefully considered by the committee as it prepares its Transportation Network Services report to the Legislative Assembly. Today’s meeting will consist of 25-minute presentations VANCOUVER POLICE DEPARTMENT followed by 20 minutes for questions from committee mem- bers. All meetings are recorded and transcribed by Hansard J. Rice: Okay. Tere are only four questions, but I can Services, and a complete transcript of the proceedings will be probably ofer real input on a couple of them, because it’s not posted on the committee’s website. Tese meetings are also our area of expertise. I’m sure the provincial government has broadcast as live audio via our website. researchers that are looking at where this has worked in oth- I will now ask the members of the committee to introduce er jurisdictions and how we can emulate best practices. themselves, beginning with the member for West Vancou- Having said that, with respect to the boundaries, I think ver–Sea to Sky. one of the issues we tried to resolve the last time I gave evid- ence was the difculty people have in getting home at certain J. Sturdy: Jordan Sturdy, West Vancouver–Sea to Sky. times of the day, when it’s raining. Supply doesn’t necessar- ily meet demand when it comes to getting people home in a J. Johal: Jas Johal, MLA, Richmond-Queensborough. timely manner. I think that the boundaries with the TNS companies could be counterproductive. Restricting somebody from only pick- 200 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 ing up in a very limited area, driving out to the suburbs and living in suburbs that need to get, obviously, back and forth. not being able to take somebody back is one of the problems Tat is my only response to that question. we’re trying to solve. So I think doing that overly restrictively Now, the one that you’re probably most interested in hear- would be counterproductive. ing from me would be the question about the class of driver’s I did do a little bit of research, and I’m sure you’ve done a licence that’s required. Our position would be that a class 4 lot more than me. An area like Toronto that requires a spe- commercial vehicle licence be required. Tat’s not a class 3, 2 cial permit to operate in a smaller area — I guess it’s not or 1, which qualifes you to drive bigger buses and transport that small; it includes Toronto and a couple of municipalities vehicles. Tis is for taxis, limousines and buses up to ten pas- immediately around Toronto — and a newer vehicle. I can sengers. only suspect that that’s to limit the number of vehicles that Tere are more restrictive requirements when it comes to are working in a particular area. I guess that would be one of driver history to obtain your class 4, which I think is the the considerations. most important aspect. You’re required to do an additional I’ve done some research on the Internet. I can’t tell you driver test and a couple of diferent tests, including a pre-trip whether or not Uber, Lyf or any of the other companies written test and a road sign test. cause congestion, but I suspect that that’s a reason they’ve I think the most important part of this would be restrict- limited that, to ensure that we don’t have an overabundance, ing the number of violations that a person can have over the too much supply, well above demand in a particular area, previous three years. With a class 4, you have to have few- which could cause more problems than it actually solves. er than four ofences that result in penalty points. Penalty I think that the basic thing about the boundaries is points are usually attached to moving violations, because restricting people from being able to move back and forth in those violations are more likely to cause accidents. a general area. So having a sort of regional permit or licence, I think if we’re inviting people to be on the road more, I think, would be ideal, allowing people to operate in that which is what we’re doing by allowing them to be a TNS general area. If there was consideration to restricting an area, driver, we need to ensure that the people that do that are the perhaps that would be an area inside the downtown bridges, best drivers — people with the limited number of violations, to limit the number of ride-hailing vehicles that can operate people that have gone the extra step to take that extra road in that area. test so we can be sure that they are a good driver. [9:10 a.m.] I mean, you could have your class 5 and be lucky enough I suspect that these applications have the ability to put to not get many tickets, but you could still be a horrible people back and forth on and of the platform, depending driver because you don’t drive very much. We’re inviting on how many people are working in a particular area, so people that potentially have not driven too much with their you could have, for lack of a better description, electronic class 5 to now drive as a TNS driver. Tey have limited boundaries within the app itself that limit the number of experience, but because they don’t have many tickets, we’re vehicles working in a certain area at a certain period of inviting them on the road more and potentially creating time. Tat’s just something…. Tinking on my own. It prob- more problems. ably already exists, so I’m probably not saying anything that We don’t want to erode the steps that have been taken hasn’t already been discussed. to require a class 4 licence just for the sake of convenience Do you want me to just move on to the second, third and and efciency. I know that’s one of the concerns — that fourth questions before any questions? we’re making people jump through a number of unnecessary hoops and we’re not going to get those people that only want B. Ma (Chair): Yes, please go ahead. to drive 20 hours a week. But I think those are the people we need to ensure are confdent drivers, and I think these extra J. Rice: Okay. Te second part here — this really is not an steps, including the medical examination report, are neces- area of expertise that we have. I just think that the system sary steps if we’re going to bring these people onto the road- needs to ft seamlessly with our current transportation sys- way more than they already do. tem, the taxi industry and TranksLink. Again, looking at Now, does a class 4 licence reduce collisions? I would hope the boundaries to ensure that we have proper supply and so. It would be a tough comparison, because taxi drivers are demand in certain areas, I think, is very important. Tat’s on the road a lot more than most people with a class 5, so you everything I can say about that particular question. can’t really do a side-by-side comparison. Somebody else is Te third question again is the same thing. It’s tough for going to have to do a study just to see how much it does me to give a position from the police department here on reduce collisions. what the price should be. Again, it just needs to work. I think I’m just going through some notes here. I have to scroll the government, obviously, needs to look to see where it has through to make sure I’m covering everything of. Could a worked, in cities like Toronto that have multiple municipal- person operate with a class 5 and be restricted to a certain ities bordering on each other. number of violations over a period of time? Tat’s certainly It is a little bit unique, because we’re going to have people an option. But again, I don’t think that just because a person Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 201 has only two violations…. Tey may only drive four hours a reviewed by the superintendent of motor vehicles. If they’re week. saying that, with one violation, they would not approve I think putting them through that extra road test is a somebody to be a driver, I think that’s good for them. I mean, necessary step just to re-evaluate their driving ability and the stricter the better. ensure that we have the right people on the road. Like I said, I do think that the addition of that additional driving we are inviting these people to be on the road more, so I test…. Right? Because my concern is that we have people think we need to have the best drivers out there. that may not have a number of violations, but that’s because they don’t drive a lot, and they don’t drive a lot because they B. Ma (Chair): All right. Tank you so much, Sergeant don’t have experience. Rice. We’ve got a few questions for you, beginning with Mr. Suddenly they have this opportunity to be a TNS driver, Chandra Herbert. and they’re going to go out there and say they have only [9:15 a.m.] one violation in that past four years. But we’re all thankful that they haven’t been on the road, because they don’t have S. Chandra Herbert: Tank you, Sergeant Rice. I won- the experience. And suddenly, they’re a TNS driver. So I do dered. Uber made a suggestion, and I don’t understand it believe that that extra road test is necessary as part of the completely, that their restrictions of violations were stricter. class 4 requirement. Tey suggested they not only look at the total number of points over a set period of time and the total number of S. Chandra Herbert: Tank you, Sergeant Rice. I think incidents, but they look at what kinds of incidents. that makes a lot of sense. Certainly, I got my licence, and So you might not hit a total of…. I don’t know if it’s 12 then I didn’t drive very much for a couple of years. I have an points; I’m just trying to go from memory here. But maybe aunt — I won’t say which one; I’ve got many aunts — who’s you get close to it just on one incident where you drove par- not a good driver, but she’s had her licence for a long time. I ticularly dangerously. Any thoughts on how points or num- don’t want her to be a TNS driver. bers of violations should be considered? J. Rice: Right. Neither do I. J. Rice: Well, it’s not necessarily the violations. It would be the points. Undue care and attention, I believe, carries with B. Ma (Chair): I can sympathize as well. My mother is the it six points, so you can get to a certain limit with fewer tick- frst person to admit that she’s a terrible driver, but she’s nev- ets. I think, though, that the more important thing is that…. er gotten a ticket. I think the number of tickets is less important. Obviously, it’s very important. If you’ve got a person who’s R. Kahlon: We’ll send you the addresses of their houses got several moving violation tickets over a short period of afer, Sergeant. time, we don’t want them out there driving a vehicle at all. I have two questions. I don’t want to put words in your We’re all unsafe with that person being on the road. mouth. Maybe you can clarify. But I’m hearing from you, I lost my train of thought there for a second. With the around congestion, about having some sort of limit, in par- dangerous driving, if the standards are set for a class 5 ticular in the downtown core. So you could maybe clarify licence like they’re saying, and they’re more stringent, then I that. think having a class 4 licence, which is equally as stringent, Ten, I guess, from a police perspective…. Obviously, we and having that extra driver test, is important. know, when there’s congestion in town, what that means for commuters, because we hear from them about congestion S. Chandra Herbert: Okay, thank you. and how they’re not happy. How does it afect the policing side? Maybe you can share a little thought on that. J. Rice: I’m not sure if I answered your question there, actually. I didn’t quite understand where they were going. J. Rice: Okay. I mean, I don’t know for a fact that ride- hailing or TNS causes congestion. I can only read articles on S. Chandra Herbert: Yeah, no. I think their suggestion the Internet just like anybody else, right? So I really have no was that instead of saying, I think it was, four violations over experience besides taking an Uber or a Lyf in other cities, three years, if they had one violation in three years but that and I don’t know what trafc is normally like there, so I don’t one violation added up to a whole bunch of points, they know how it has impacted it. might decide: “Well, you might not have hit 12 points, but it [9:20 a.m.] was such an egregious violation that we don’t want you.” So In the downtown core, I guess my only concern would just wondering whether or not the four violations over three be…. It’s nice to have a good supply at certain times of the years is strong enough as it is. night. Right now we lack supply. When the bars close or on rainy days, people have difculty getting home. We don’t J. Rice: Yeah, I don’t know. I haven’t…. Is it strong want to limit TNS drivers from coming into that area dur- enough? You know, each individual driving record is always ing those periods of time, but we also don’t want such a sup- 202 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

ply that it’s way, way over demand. Ten it just creates issues J. Rice: It is, eh. with congestion, I would suspect. I can’t say defnitively that that is the case. J. Sturdy: Yeah. From a policing standpoint, obviously, we need to get around quickly. We have emergency equipment. Again, I J. Rice: So you’re basically doing your road test following don’t know if it’s going to cause congestion, but it could cre- the same rules as you would for a class 5. Is that what you’re ate problems for us. fnding? Parking space down there…. I mean, I don’t think that these drivers are driving around aimlessly. I would expect J. Sturdy: Tat’s my understanding, but we are looking for that they’re sitting somewhere, parked somewhere, waiting some clarity in this regard. for a fare. It would be counterproductive if they’re wasting I don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but what gas just sort of cruising around an area. So parking and I’m hearing from you is that the chief concern is around the standing in certain locations could potentially be an issue, number of violations and the types of violations that any and that’s something the city is going to have to address with driver has in terms of whether they would be considered a bylaws. safe driver and whether they would be eligible to…. Again, I think the platform can probably control that. I think if a certain number of vehicles are on line in a certain J. Rice: Yeah, I would say that would be the biggest con- area, if you have a geogrid or a boundary that other vehicles cern. One of the comments I’ll make there too…. You men- can’t come on line in that location…. I would suspect that tioned that the driver test is the same. I’ve got a son who’s a the platform can sort of place itself to control congestion, but young driver. I know how they drive when they’re with us — I’m not an expert in that area. for their learner’s. Tey drive when they get their test. Ten Did that answer your question at all? over a period of time, they start to get more confdence, and their driving habits change. R. Kahlon: Yes, thank you. Tat’s great. I would love to see young drivers have to do a road test every year, every two years, just to bring them back in line, J. Sturdy: Tank you, sergeant. Is it true that you could if that makes any sense to you, because the driver’s tests may obtain a class 4 driver’s licence with, essentially, zero driver’s be the same, but behaviours change over time. I’d like more experience other than having a class 5 for two years? frequency, even in that case, to make people sort of reset and get back to the way they drove when they obtained their J. Rice: You know what? I don’t have the…. You have to licence. have a class 5 for two years. You have to do your medical exam, your road test, your written exam on the pre-vehicle J. Sturdy: Do you think that the ability to rate the driving, inspection and, I believe, a road-sign test. the experience, from a guest perspective would have an If you don’t have a lot of experience, yet you pass that road impact on people’s actions and activities as a driver? As in test, which I think is essential, yeah, you could have very lim- the case of…. Most of these TNS companies would allow for ited experience. You’re right. Have no violations over a peri- or actually encourage a rating of the driver on everybody’s od of…. Not necessarily no violations, but a good driving trip. record with a class 5 over a period time and have very lim- [9:25 a.m.] ited experience. It’s my hope that that road test would be one of the steps J. Rice: I think it’s a good thing. With taxi drivers, we that would eliminate people that have limited experience but make them take TaxiHost, which is sort of a customer ser- are poor drivers. But yeah, you’re right. vice course and a bunch of other driver safety components to it as well. I think their rating system, actually, is a good way J. Sturdy: Are you aware of any diference between a class of weeding the bad people out. It’s more of a customer ser- 4 road test and a class 5 road test other than the pre-trip vice thing, but I think if somebody’s driving unsafely…. inspection? I was watching the news yesterday. I think one of the anchors accused, or thought, that maybe their driver was J. Rice: You know what? I went on the Internet just before high on cocaine when they took one back east. I think those this call to educate myself on that, but I don’t know. I believe types of reviews…. If somebody is doing something that’s it’s more stringent to get your class 4, but I can’t actually tell unsafe — they’re speeding; they appear to be high or drunk you. I wish I would have had fve more minutes, because I — I think that’s invaluable. was in the process of looking that up. It’s almost immediate. We don’t have that with taxis. We have the complaint line. People can call in. But I think they’re J. Sturdy: I did some research on it, and it appears that it’s less likely to do that unless they have something right in the same question bank. front of them and they can put their comments in right at that moment. I think it does have some value. If a person Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 203

gets a certain number of ratings, I believe they get dropped from driving. I know that my sister-in-law had a seizure last of the platform. I’m not sure. But I think it’s very useful. year. She can’t drive for six months. Tat was, obviously, doc- tor’s orders. Did he report that to the motor vehicle branch? J. Sturdy: If only we could get our kids rated, eh? I don’t know. Maybe she’s operating on the honour system right now. J. Rice: I would love to know what they’re doing when I’m I’m not sure exactly whether or not it’s a doctor’s respons- not around. ibility — perhaps it is — to report things to the motor vehicle branch. Not everybody may be cooperative in self-reporting, J. Sturdy: Me too. right, and not driving. My sister-in-law is, of course. If a per- son doesn’t go to the doctor on a consistent basis, how can B. Ma (Chair): Any other questions from committee the doctor report on any conditions they have? My doctor members? couldn’t report on a whole lot about me. I don’t go too ofen. All right. I have a few myself, Sergeant Rice. What do you I guess if you’re requiring that medical examination, at think of the idea that transportation network companies can least that gets them to the doctor. Te doctor then has the and should be fully responsible for setting their own driver ability to report — I mean on the form — whether or not standards rather than using a class 4? So class 5 plus their they have any concerns. own standards. Do you think that is a suitable replacement [9:30 a.m.] for class 4? I can’t really comment on it much because I don’t know what the medical standard is. I think there’s a lot of subjectiv- J. Rice: I keep on going back to the additional driver test. ity, perhaps, on the part of the doctor whether or not they I’m hearing now that it’s no diferent than the one that you think the person should be a driver, or maybe there are a have for a class 5. But like I said, you have people that don’t couple of check boxes. If you have those on the form, you’re drive a lot, that have fewer violations and that still are not out. Right now my understanding is that with a class 5, we competent drivers and should be tested. won’t know you have a medical condition until something Once a person obtains their licence…. Having to send in happens and your doctor says you can’t drive. your driving record every year or every two years to the company, and they do their own auditing at that point, I B. Ma (Chair): Just for context, I believe the class 4 guess is possibly an option. It reduces the amount of work we licence…. From their perspective, medically ft means not have to do. But I do think that road test is important. It’s sort having certain conditions such as a tendency towards of a reset, right? Where is this person at now? seizures, epilepsy, certain types of heart conditions, certain Tey want to drive people around. We want to invite them types of visual challenges — that sort of thing. on the road more. What’s their competence now? Not: Recognizing that you’re not a medical doctor and don’t “What was their competence when they got their licence?” come from a medical background, you might not be able to We’re giving them more freedom. We’re allowing them the answer this, but I’m going to put this to you. In your experi- opportunity to drive people around. We’re inviting them on ence as an ofcer of the law, as somebody who has teams that the roadway more. Let’s see where they’re at now. Let’s make are experienced with dealing with drivers on the road, have them do a test. If they pass, then by all means…. If they don’t you encountered drivers with class 5 licences that probably have a certain number of violations, then they get their per- aren’t medically ft — in whichever way, be they physically ft mit or their licence. Does that make sense? or perhaps mentally ft to drive on the road — despite having a class 5 licence? B. Ma (Chair): Yes, absolutely. My next question is…. One of the arguments or one of the suggestions being made J. Rice: Personally, no. But I know our collision invest- by transportation network companies is that the medical igation unit has investigated a couple of fles where there examination is not required. Currently, the class 4, if I were medical conditions that were signifcant contributing understand, requires a medical examination once every fve factors. I can think of one situation that was a problem with years for those under 45 years old, once every three years for seizures, and it resulted in a fatal collision. those between 45 and 65 years old and once every year for Personally, I don’t have a lot of experience with it. I think, those above 65. like I said, if someone doesn’t go to a doctor, we can’t expect a Te argument being made by the presenter from Uber, doctor to be able to report whether a person has a condition who joined us yesterday, was that because doctors are or not. With a class 5, like I said, I don’t think we become already required to report drivers who are unft to drive to aware of those situations until something tragic happens, or ICBC, the medical examinations are not required. Do you a person does go to a doctor and the doctor basically tells have any comments on that? them: “You should no longer be driving, or at least not for six months.” J. Rice: You know what? I don’t have a lot of knowledge Again, I’m not sure of the obligation on the part of the with respect to what medical conditions prohibit somebody doctor to actually report that. I’m going to speak to my sis- 204 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 ter-in-law tonight and fnd out whether or not her driving Chair, committee members. We appreciate the committee status has been suspended for a period of six months. I giving us a little bit of time to present on issues related spe- don’t suspect her doctor has, probably, forwarded anything, cifcally to item 4 of the terms of reference. because she’ll listen to him, and he knows that she’ll listen to Specifcally, we’re going to talk about standards and re- him. quirements for ride-hailing drivers to ensure a robust safety But yeah, there have been those instances out there regime without undue barriers. Given our experience, we where…. It’s going to happen anywhere, right? I mean, even feel that that’s the area that we can contribute to this conver- if somebody has a class 4 and they’ve gone through a medical sation the most, so that’s where we’ll focus our attention. exam, the reality is that situations change. Medical condi- My name is Harry Randhawa, as you said, and I’m the tions change, and anything is possible. Just because we take coordinator for the JIBC TaxiHost program. I’m here with these steps to ensure that we have the safest drivers…. We’re my colleague, Joan Glover. She’s the program director for the going to get people that get in crashes. Tey’re going to get JIBC driver education centre. Our presentation will focus violation tickets. We’re going to have TNS drivers that com- mostly on standards and current and future training models mit criminal ofences. and how they ft into the discussion around taxi moderniza- We can only do our best to try to make it as safe as pos- tion and ride-hailing services. sible, and I think these extra steps assist us with that. Wheth- Some of you may be a little bit familiar with the Justice er or not the government wants to create a class 5A licence Institute of British Columbia, or JIBC, as a post-secondary for TNS drivers that reduce the requirements slightly from educator that trains our communities’ police ofcers, fre- a class 4, that’s up to the government to determine. Tat’s fghters and other professionals where occupational and fne. I know some other provinces…. I believe Toronto just public safety is a primary concern. Tis includes the work requires a basic class 5. Calgary and Edmonton require a that we do with the taxi and limousine industry. Our focus commercial vehicle licence similar to our class 4. and our vision is around safer communities, and we do this through education, training and research. B. Ma (Chair): Any other questions from committee I’m going to skip over a lot of what’s on this slide here and members before we allow Sergeant Rice to take leave? No. just talk about our mandate. Again, our specifc mandate is Tank you so much for joining us — really appreciate you to work with community partners in the felds of justice and taking the time to come by teleconference. public safety. Our primary focus is: how do we ensure that the professionals that are working out there today can main- J. Rice: Tank you very much for the opportunity. tain safety for the public and also maintain their own occu- pational safety? We work with community partners, muni- B. Ma (Chair): Take care. cipal governments and the province to ensure the delivery of Now our next presenter is the Justice Institute of British this. Tat includes the work that we do with the taxi and lim- Columbia. We are a little bit early. We’ll recess for fve ousine industry now. minutes just to get you set up, and then we’ll begin at 9:40. I’ll start by just sharing a little bit of history about Taxi- Host. I know it’s maybe a little bit outside of this conversa- Te committee recessed from 9:34 a.m. to 9:40 a.m. tion, but I think a lot of it is actually relevant to what we’re talking about today. [B. Ma in the chair.] Te TaxiHost program was originally developed in 1996 as a way to standardize training being provided throughout B. Ma (Chair): We have before us Ms. Joan Glover and the Lower Mainland. It was developed through collaboration Mr. Harry Randhawa from the Justice Institute of British by industry and community stakeholders to elevate the level Columbia. of service being provided for better local and visitor exper- I will be setting this timer to 25 minutes. You’ll have 25 iences. At the inception of this program, it was brought minutes to present, uninterrupted, and that will be followed together as a way to ensure that training was being delivered by 20 minutes of questions. Te length of time for questions by all operators in a way that was efective and actually hav- may be extended if you’ve lef time in your presentations. Do ing an impact in terms of the customer experience. you have any questions for us before we begin? Prior to this program being developed, the taxi and lim- ousine industry really did not have any form of consistent H. Randhawa: No, not really. We’ll just do our best to try delivery of training. Larger outfts did invest time to put to stay within the time frame. together some form of training, while smaller outfts pretty much just let it slide. Tere was no consistent standard, and B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. because of this, there was a slew of consumer complaints, and a lot of key stakeholders were quite upset by the level of JUSTICE INSTITUTE OF B.C. service that people were being provided. [9:45 a.m.] H. Randhawa: Tank you for having us here, Madam Some of these key stakeholders banded together, and that Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 205 included ICBC, Tourism Vancouver, YVR, JIBC and other one of the requirements that they need to show in order to community partners, to help create something that was receive their chaufeur’s permit, in addition to the class 4 independently administered — a third-party training model. licence and having passed the criminal record check. Tis was to ensure the delivery to every driver that enters the I’ll tell you a little bit about the courses. I’ll just briefy go industry, no matter which company they chose to work for. over what they actually include, so you have a little bit of an Over 21 stakeholders were originally involved and parti- idea as to what’s covered. cipated in the development of the program. Some of those Taxi industry and driver safety is one of the frst courses are listed up on that particular slide there and included in that they have to take. Tis course kind of focuses on the your presentation. industry operational procedures, the diferent rules and reg- Te TaxiHost program, as it has evolved and continued ulations and laws that apply and acceptable standards of ser- to change since the time it was originally created, now fol- vice. Also within this course we cover efective route plan- lows TaxiHost Pro as the current standard. Tis training is ning, and they need to be familiar with major centres of required by all drivers that are operating in the Lower Main- commerce and tourism within the Lower Mainland. land, everywhere from West Vancouver all the way out to [9:50 a.m.] Chilliwack. If they happen to be operating a vehicle for hire A signifcant portion of the time dedicated in this par- at YVR, they are also required to meet this standard. ticular course is around assault avoidance and strategies to Te current delivery model is face to face, and we facilitate reduce occupational risk. As many of you may be aware, taxi that at our New West campus. It’s face to face because it drivers are one of the most at-risk occupational groups in includes disability training, which includes things like curb North America. I mean, they have a much higher chance of management, loading and unloading and proper securement being assaulted than a police ofcer. when transporting a client using a wheelchair, scooter or Te second course that drivers need to be able to complete other mobility aid. is a course called service excellence and accessibility in Te courses that we ofer are delivered in a fexible format transportation. Tis course is twofold. Part of the course on a weekly basis, and they accommodate individuals that covers the value of tourism and how it contributes to the are working, studying or transitioning from unemployment provincial economy in making sure that drivers understand to work as professional drivers. To date, we’ve trained their role within that. upwards of 16,000 drivers to help improve the quality of ser- Tey also review efective communication strategies, vice that British Columbians actually receive. handling customer concerns and working with a diverse cli- Before a driver can actually enrol in the program, they ent base — knowing what’s appropriate to be able to talk are required to take a small assessment. Our student demo- about and what’s not appropriate, and what kinds of ques- graphic includes a high proportion of applicants that come tions they need to target or ask their clients in order to be from other countries or provinces, and they’re looking for able to best provide service. Within this course, we also cov- opportunities to make a decent living and establish them- er principles for transporting people that experience specif- selves quickly in B.C. But in order to do that, we need to ic disabilities. Tat’s discussed and demonstrated within the make sure that they’re able to communicate efectively with course. the clients that they’re going to be driving around. So we do Te last course that drivers need to take is called collision a basic literacy and English profciency test, which we feel is avoidance driving. Tis may provide a little bit more clarity an important part to make sure that they can communicate in terms of the conversation that you just had with Sergeant efectively with clients. Many of the newcomers that we get Rice. Tis course helps prepare drivers for on-road service ofen have to brush up these skills prior to enrolment. delivery. It includes an actual on-road evaluation and skills Tere’s also a basic geography quiz that these applicants training to those that have had less time on the road or do, and that verifes that they’re familiar with the Lower those that need to brush up their skills since receiving their Mainland — our local cities, bridges and highways that are licence. our major transportation corridors for all motorists in the Tese are the courses that we currently ofer. Over the Lower Mainland. We feel that this is important, even with last few years, we’ve had lots of conversations with our com- the advent of GPS. munity partners. We’ve had lots of conversations with regu- TaxiHost Pro consists of three diferent courses, and I’ll lators. Te JIBC has taken a critical look at our TaxiHost Pro tell you a little bit about those. One of the courses is called program to see how the experiences and expertise that we taxi industry and driver safety. We also have service excel- use to develop this program can assist in developing a B.C.- lence and accessibility in transportation. And the third made solution to tackle consumer concerns around TNS or course that drivers have to take is called collision avoidance ride-hail safety and quality of service issues. driving. Tey need to actually complete all three of these Te JIBC is developing curriculum for an on-line course courses, and drivers must achieve 75 percent in each course specifcally designed for drivers wanting to work in the ride- to pass. hailing industry. Tis new course aids in creating standards When they’ve completed the program, that’s when they and training that support keeping British Columbians and receive a certifcate of completion. Tis certifcate is actually visitors to B.C. safe if and when they decide to use ride-hail- 206 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 ing services. Tis course can be used to provide a consistent, clients at risk. But it doesn’t necessarily arm drivers with the standardized training model that would be accessible to all tools for enhanced safety, and it doesn’t ensure that super- ride-hail drivers and operators, not just one particular oper- ior service, which clients ultimately expect, is going to be ator. delivered. I think, quite passionately, that that’s what training Tis course is currently in development. We anticipate it actually ofers. to be completed by this summer, the summer of 2019. It’s Tank you for your time. We’ll be happy to open ourselves going to be an on-line course, and it’s going to be approxim- up to any questions you may have. ately four hours to complete. It will be available throughout B.C., so it won’t be limited to the Lower Mainland. It will be B. Ma (Chair): Fantastic. Tank you so much. Our frst developed specifcally for the ride-hail industry and also for question comes from Mr. Kahlon. jurisdictions outside of Metro Vancouver who, at the current time, cannot access TaxiHost but want to have something in R. Kahlon: Tank you for the presentation. I assume place for their drivers. when you have this on-line course that TaxiHost won’t be Te goal of this course is to ensure that all drivers have required anymore, or that program will be gone. the skills to work efectively with passengers. Tis includes providing universal access to all customers — confict resol- H. Randhawa: Ultimately, it’s up to regulators to decide ution strategies as well as understanding the risks and being how and what requirements they want to set in place, wheth- able to implement appropriate safety strategies when neces- er they choose to introduce just the on-line course for every- sary, especially under certain circumstances where they may body or if they choose to maintain a working model that cur- be dealing with someone that may be impaired or intoxic- rently exists and include this specifcally for ride-hail. ated. I do want to clarify that there are diferences between Specifc topics that will be covered within the course are these two groups. One of the diferences that needs to be outlined on the slide here. We will cover skills that are neces- elaborated on is the fact that as we see transit and handy- sary for being a successful driver, including drivers making DART pushing more and more demand for service on taxi sure that they’re familiar with their own geographic region, companies to be able to fll in the gap around being able that they take the time to learn about the community events to transport someone that may be using a mobility aid or that are happening within their local community and that maybe an electric or manual wheelchair, the training that they are aware of the diverse communities that operate and you provide them really needs to include hands-on training. live within that community and the needs of those specifc For numerous years now, whenever we’ve talked to com- groups. We’ll also cover driver safety protocols and strategies munity partners, this is the messaging we continue to hear for enhancing their own occupational safety. Obviously, — that hands-on training is something that needs to be efective communication strategies are an important part of included more and more. When you go switch to an on- all of those things. line course, there are certain things that you can do efect- [9:55 a.m.] ively well. You can reach a larger audience. You can stream- A big portion of this course is also going to be dedicated line things. But you cannot deliver those portions. So I think towards universal access, particularly focusing on diversity, when you take that out, there are some challenges there. equality and inclusion training. Te last portion of this course will cover a small portion on the theoretical portion R. Kahlon: I’m struggling a little bit with it. Right now…. of road skills training. On the previous committee, when we were deliberating, we Te inclusion of driver training as a requirement for ride- heard that in providing access to people, let’s say with wheel- hailing entities helps support a mandate to protect the pub- chairs, there are extra hurdles for taxi companies that lic, support communities throughout B.C. and look at these provide that service because the vehicles cost more, the options as alternative transportation resources for locals that ramps cost. So there’s a higher cost to it. Now what you’re depend heavily on the tourism sector. So when we start talk- saying is that in order for someone to provide that service, ing about communities outside of the Lower Mainland that they now have to do an additional course. depend heavily on tourism, they want to make sure that the Both taxi and TNS drivers provide essentially the same drivers they have in place have something to be able to ofer, service, but one, you’re suggesting, could do a more longer that the customer experience at the end of the day is a good course that I suspect takes a couple days. You’re saying that one. for TNS drivers, you could condense it to four hours. If you Te driver training also supports the municipal and pro- could do all that in four hours, then why would anybody — vincial road safety initiatives, such as B.C.’s vision zero plan or if I were in government — want to send somebody to a to move towards a goal of zero trafc-related fatalities. Some four-day course when you’re saying to us you can do all of of the current recommendations focus on the class of driver’s it in four days? But I hear what you’re saying. You’re saying: licence and the inclusion of a criminal record check. Obvi- “We can’t.” ously, these were discussed at length over the last two days. [10:00 a.m.] Tese ensure that drivers do not have a history that puts You can ofer a modifed course with less education that Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 207 can be done in four hours because you want to try to provide speak? It can be a rough number, obviously, if you don’t have a convenient solution for us, but it doesn’t necessarily do the the exact number. same thing. Am I getting it right? H. Randhawa: We don’t set people up to fail. One of the H. Randhawa: Correct. Yes. I don’t think that anyone things that we do and that I mentioned in my presentation would be able to say that you can take a program that we do is we do that initial assessment. Tat initial assessment that over a number of days and that we can just squeeze it down we do verifes that they have English profciency and that to a couple of hours and say: “Hey, it’s all good.” Tere are they have at least a basic knowledge of Metro Vancouver so things that you lose in that process. that they didn’t just move here from Edmonton yesterday However, this course that we are developing, as I said in and now want to drive a taxi and can do that and can go my presentation, is primarily focused around the ride-hail- through the course. Tey will get stuck. Tey will have chal- ing industry. Te reason for that is because they are not lenges within the particular courses that they are going to be necessarily, as you said, going to have to be able to provide taking because they have to achieve a 75 percent to pass. the same types of service in terms of transporting persons Te assessment itself tends to weed out people that need with disabilities. to spend a little bit more time to brush up their skills, wheth- er it’s on the local geography and getting to know our local R. Kahlon: Well, we’re deliberating on that. I don’t think communities or whether it’s in terms of their language skills, that’s a pass that we want to give to any company. I think one which may prevent them from being able to pass the course. of my colleagues has raised that we do have one of the best Te majority of individuals that take this course are able services in, probably, North America, and it needs to be a lot to get through this program without a problem. Sometimes better. I don’t think we’re at the point where…. Well, we’ll they need remedial help, and sometimes they need to, have conversations on it, but I don’t think there’s a free pass maybe, retake an exam in order to be able to get through the for anyone. course. But we take steps to ensure that every candidate is Although I appreciate that you’re trying to provide a solu- successful. tion here, a shortened solution because you think there’s a [10:05 a.m.] potential challenge ahead, I am concerned that we can say I would say that our failure rate, even though I don’t have that all of a sudden a person driving a TNS vehicle and actual numbers for you, is probably…. About 10 to 15 per- providing essentially the same service can get away with four cent of individuals don’t actually make it through. Tose hours of on-line training when we think that a person driv- that make it through the assessment process mostly make it ing more, for a longer time, can’t. through this program. Anyway, I appreciate that you’re trying to solve a potential problem with this. I appreciate that. R. Kahlon: I’ve had many people come to my ofce — I have two questions. I don’t want to monopolize all the they probably were part of that 10 to 15 percent — and say: time. Te question is: if this takes four hours, how long does “I didn’t pass the test.” It’s hard for us, as MLAs, because we the TaxiHost program take, approximately, hours-wise? And just say…. that’s both in person and on line. Second, what kind of per- Tat being said, with what you’re proposing, that 10 or 15 centage of people actually, say, fail? If you have 16,000 people percent who couldn’t pass the basic TaxiHost will now go on that have passed successfully — or 4,000, 8,000 — how many line, maybe even sit with a friend and get passed and be on people weren’t able to do a basic course like that, that you our roads. Tat’s my concern with the two-tier system. I’ll were not able to pass? leave that there.

H. Randhawa: Tose are great questions. In terms of the R. Singh: Tank you so much for your presentation. I existing TaxiHost program and the way that it was estab- have a question. I don’t know whether you will have the lished, the courses themselves…. “Taxi Industry and Driver answer or not. Safety” is a two-day course. “Service Excellence and Access- You are so focused — your course is so focused — on the ibility in Transportation” is also a two-day course. Te last safety of the drivers and the public also. You say that the course, “Collision Avoidance Driving,” is a full-day course. people who are taking the TaxiHost program…. We all know Tese are intensive, full-day courses that drivers take. It’s a they have to take a class 4 licence. With the ride-hailing com- total of fve days. It’s 30 hours. ing in, do you think, with your experience, that they should When we look at training programs throughout every have the same standards — like, class 4? major city in Canada, this was the standard that was estab- lished. And things are changing. Tat’s loud and clear. But in H. Randhawa: You’re asking me for my opinion, so I’ll terms of the delivery model and how things are set up and share it as an opinion. the number of hours, that’s what it is — 30 hours in total. Just to clarify one point. When applicants come through the program, they can actually enter with a class 5 licence. R. Kahlon: How many people don’t meet the test, so to Tey can go through, and they can work on their class 4 at 208 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

the same time. Tere’s no time barrier for them. Tey’re able training course that is specifcally designed to make sure that to kind of get through the process in an expedited way. client experiences are positive and that the consumers that are actually, at the end of the day, going to be taking the ride R. Singh: You’re talking about the TaxiHost program? get the level of service that they should be getting. Tose are concerns, obviously, to all community partners, H. Randhawa: I’m talking about the TaxiHost program, to legislators, to ourselves, to everyone that’s going to be get- yes. ting into these particular vehicles. In terms of setting the bar at a class 4 and what it means. You know, in your conversations with Sergeant Rice, just J. Johal: You raised some good points there in regards to preceding us…. We were talking about the class 4 and the some sort of uniformity in regards to standards and train- diferences in the standards. Actually, maybe I can provide a ing, particularly. As I mentioned yesterday, we have a tend- little bit of clarity to MLA Sturdy there. ency to be very urban-centric in our conversation. Tere are I did my class 4 quite a few years ago. I had a class 5, and many smaller communities that do want TNSs who will be then I upgraded to a class 4. When I did my class 5, the on- very supportive of it but certainly may not have the size of line portion or the theoretical testing was pretty much the some of the early players, like Uber and Lyf and many oth- same — very similar. But when you do the on-road skills…. ers. Basically, the rules of the road are the same. Tat part doesn’t Having said that, I just fnd it interesting that we have change. What changes is the bar. a large geographical location all across Canada — TNSs in When I did my class 5, I could get up to 40 demerits. Te Calgary. Saskatchewan just announced ride-hailing there in threshold, the bar, was set a little bit higher. I could make December. I remember the mayor of North Battleford, more errors. When I went to get my class 4, the bar was set Saskatchewan was pledging to have it there by New Year’s at 25. If you got higher than 25 demerits, you didn’t pass the Eve. So they don’t have any sort of on-line training right now test. You may need to clarify with ICBC as to whether that that you know of? still exists, but that may be where there may be some clarity for you on that point. H. Randhawa: No. I think, once again — and this has been echoed over the last few days and the previous time that J. Johal: I just have a couple of quick questions. Have you this panel was together — that B.C. is really in a unique place looked at any other regions in regards to TNCs and pro- where we haven’t allowed these operators to just move in and grams that they have to take and what you’re sort of imple- then try to create a structure around that. So we are really menting here? Have you looked around North America and aforded a unique opportunity here in terms of being able to Europe? start with scratch. When our program was initially developed in terms of H. Randhawa: Te marketplace is changing so rapidly. TaxiHost, it came in afer the fact. When we look at other cit- Depending on the territory or the area in question, the rules ies throughout Canada and the U.S., actually, there’s a lot of and regulations are changing signifcantly. It’s hard to keep interest around having some kind of on-line training being up. In terms of Canada, what I can share with you is that as put forward that’s independent, that’s third-party operated far as I know, it’s only Quebec where there has been some because of concerns in terms of safety and incidents that form of on-line training that has been established. have happened over time. But everyone is playing catch-up. From our experience with the taxi industry, one thing that I would like to share with this panel is that…. Please J. Johal: Do you think the quality of service would be that don’t just get focused on one particular operator. You may be noticeably diferent? If we have TNSs here and in Calgary — thinking about Uber or Lyf, but there may be many, many they don’t have a program; we do have a program — would operators to come that will follow or that may focus on other it be noticeably diferent in regards to service? areas in B.C. because they see an opportunity there, wheth- er that be the Island or further up north. We need to ensure H. Randhawa: My personal feeling is yes, absolutely. Te that standards are consistent across the board. reason I can say that so adamantly is because you are arming [10:10 a.m.] drivers with tools, the tools that they need to be able to deal It’s great that you may have one particular outft that may with your not-just-average consumer. invest and spend some time or create partnerships to be able I had quite a frank conversation with a friend of mine yes- to develop some level of training. But are they ticking of a terday. She’s just going to Las Vegas. She was telling me about box, or is that training actually going to be delivered in a how she had a positive experience using TNSs. I said that consistent way? It’s a real question for you. for the average consumer, being able to use a rating system To get back to your answer, we’ve only looked primarily at is fantastic. Being able to know which driver is going to pick Canada. As far as we can see, the on-line option that we’re you up or drop you of is helpful. But when you have spe- ofering you and that we’re talking about is the frst that we cialized needs or you may not belong to the majority of con- can see that is really outside of what TNSs are ofering. It is a sumers — where you may be of a diferent gender or you Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 209 may be of a diferent particular ethnicity or you may have a A. Olsen: Tank you for your presentation. I apologize disability or you may be a senior with agility needs — you that I missed the frst few minutes of it. want to make sure that the drivers that are going to be pick- ing you up know how to be able to deal with those specifc H. Randhawa: No problem. You got the package. groups and those specifc clientele. Tere’s a lot of apprehension. When I train drivers and A. Olsen: I’ve been fipping through it. Some of the things we have drivers go through our program, a lot of times they that you said in your answers, though, have caught my atten- thank us, because they have a lot of stress and a lot of appre- tion with respect to this program. I might have some blind hension around: “How do I deal with this particular client? spots here, so bear with me. How do I make sure that I’m actually going to be able to give One of the things you answered very adamantly — that, them the service that they want? You’re telling me that this is yes, people are getting a better experience by drivers that what I need to do, but how do I do that?” have gone through this program…. I’m assuming that all [10:15 a.m.] drivers go through this program. When you just throw them out there, the way that they One of the primary complaints that I have consistently learn is by making mistakes — making mistakes on custom- coming to me is the quality of service. People have an exper- ers. When you have a rating scale, that’s great, because you ience in another jurisdiction that’s been, I would say, pretty can rate a driver that’s really good and give them a 5. You can overwhelmingly diferent than the experience that they’re also rate someone that’s really bad and give them a 1. Maybe feeling, particularly, in the Lower Mainland marketplace you can root those particular drivers out. But when you get with the current services that are available. people that are getting ratings of 2 and 3, who’s to say who’s I’m just wondering what your comment is to that. I’ve had actually getting a positive ride and when they’re not getting a lot of criticism come my way about the current level of ser- a good ride? How are you arming those drivers with tools to vice that people are getting delivered to them. actually be able to improve that service? Tat’s what training really does. H. Randhawa: Sure, I can answer that. Actually, could I ask you a question? Mr. Olsen, we’ve never met before, so I’m J. Johal: Just one fnal question. Are you consulting with not familiar with your constituency. Where is your constitu- TNSs in regards to this on-line course? ency based?

H. Randhawa: When we started developing this partic- A. Olsen: Well, my constituency is on the Saanich Penin- ular course at the stage that we’re currently at, what we’ve sula. done is taken all of the information that we’ve collected over the years from our community partners. We’ve used that to H. Randhawa: Okay. You’re on the Island, outside of the try to identify subject-matter experts that might be able to Lower Mainland. help us develop these specifc segments that we want to be able to include. Tese are people or individuals that have A. Olsen: I am the critic on this fle, so where my constitu- experience dealing with these specifc areas that need to be ency is, is not necessarily directly related to the feedback that covered. Tey are experts in their feld, but additionally, they I’m getting or to the fow of information that I receive. have an educational background. Once we move past this development phase, the next por- H. Randhawa: Okay. So just to clarify, the feedback that tion that we’re going to be spending time on is, obviously, you’re getting is just overall. It’s not just primarily from here. working with an advisory group and making sure that the things that we are putting together work. If they need to be A. Olsen: Generally, primarily from the Lower Mainland. tweaked or changed, they’ll be done at that time. So that’s the On that aspect of it, primarily from the Lower Mainland. But opportunity for TNSs to be able to participate in that pro- I would say that it comes…. It’s broad. cess. H. Randhawa: Yeah, I do have some comments in regards J. Johal: Tat’s the advisory group. to that. When I’ve ofen heard about various complaints that come in…. Tere are diferent types of complaints that tend H. Randhawa: Correct. to come in. Many of them are around frequency or delays, times it takes for the service actually to be provided. How J. Johal: Tat’s when you’re going to ask those folks with long is it taking for the driver to actually show up? In terms the expertise, as well, to talk to you. of quality of service, is that driver communicating efectively or being able to actually provide the specifc skill set that is H. Randhawa: Yes. required in order to be able to provide that particular ser- vice? It’s also a complaint that comes in. [10:20 a.m.] 210 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

Tat’s an area where, yes, we do our absolute best to make H. Randhawa: Te way that the program was originally sure that drivers are prepared for that. Te current model structured, there were diferent levels to it. It was a level 1 that we have with TaxiHost…. Te reason I asked you about and a level 2. As part of the level 2 portion of the program, your constituency was because one of the limitations that we there was a particular breakout course called transporting have, in terms of the current setup, is that the concentra- persons with disabilities. Tis particular segment really tion of taxi and limousine companies is in the Lower Main- focused on loading, unloading and securement skills and all land. Our training, like I was saying, is primarily delivered of that. Some of the community partners that we were in from West Vancouver out to Chilliwack. Te quality of ser- communication with didn’t necessarily like all portions of vice, I would say, is probably signifcantly better in the Lower that particular course. Mainland than it may be in other areas, in terms of the Tere was also tremendous push from the taxi companies, drivers being better prepared and knowing what they need the limousine industry and other community partners to to be able to deliver in terms of service. try to streamline the training that was being delivered. Tey Tat doesn’t necessarily mean that the client always gets were saying it’s too long and too costly. that. We do our best in order to be able to prepare drivers. [10:25 a.m.] But once they go through this program, at the current time, If you have a portion that people are saying is not working there is nothing that forces a driver to have to come back and that they want us to streamline, that’s the part that got through the program. Once they’ve done it, they’ve done it. cut. Did it get cut out completely? Absolutely not. Maybe one of the things that you need to consider — this What we did was we went through our training program hasn’t been discussed, really — is: should there be a time as it continued to evolve, and we streamlined it. We took out frame for which a driver needs to retest or go through a pro- any pieces that might’ve been repeated through level 1 and gram or an on-line course again? level 2, and we combined the courses. We streamlined it so that people could go through it a little bit more quickly and A. Olsen: If I may, I think you started to move into an it could be a little bit more afordable. But the standard was area…. If you are to juxtapose the two and say that all we set the same. need is a TaxiHost program like this, then I think you miss Te only pieces that were taken out were around a seg- out on the ongoing collection of information about a driver ment around persons with a visual impairment. Tere was a or about an experience. Maybe it’s not even about a driver; small segment where drivers were given the opportunity to maybe it’s about the experience with the vehicle and the actually wear specialized goggles. Te goggles would simu- driver — that ongoing collection of metrics that TNSs can late what it would be like to see the world if you had glauc- get. I don’t know that either is a panacea. oma or if you had another form of visual impairment. Tat was not well received, and we were asked by partners to take H. Randhawa: I agree. I don’t think you should have one that out, and we did. in place of the other. I mean, these are all exceptional tools. In terms of the loading, securement and unloading por- Technology is something that enhances our ability to be able tions, we took out the physical part where drivers would to provide better service. If you have training, in conjunction actually have to be able to do that, and we created a video with ratings systems and other things that are put in place, format for it so drivers can still see how loading and unload- that’s going to ultimately improve the experience that every ing and securement take place. In terms of curb manage- client is going to get. I don’t see one as a replacement for the ment and things like that, those are all still covered within other. the course and classroom as well. I think, though, that training standards do need to be put in place to make sure that drivers at least know what the B. Ma (Chair): We are short on time, but we do have two expectations are and what they need to be able to deliver more questions on our list. I’d like to get through them, so if before they even get on the road. we could be a little bit tighter.

A. Olsen: I guess one of the overwhelming questions that S. Chandra Herbert: What do drivers do who live outside I don’t know we’re going to be able to solve here is…. My of the Lower Mainland? I understand you’re trying to experience with drivers that have gone through this has not address an issue of geography, as well, through an on-line been one that…. I do come into the city, and I also take ser- course. But if you’re in Terrace or Smithers or Fort Nelson, vices elsewhere. do you have to fy into Vancouver? How do we deal with the One fnal question about aspects of disability training that TaxiHost training in those kinds of situations? might’ve been removed. Tis was brought to my attention — that perhaps some aspects of the disability training were H. Randhawa: Tat’s a great question. Because of the way removed from the TaxiHost program. Is that the case? If so, that the courses are currently structured — and they are face why did that happen? And maybe was that the right decision to face at the current time — they are really quite centric to make? around the Lower Mainland. It’s focused around the delivery of the training for the municipalities that are within the Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 211

Lower Mainland. If you’re outside of that region, it is quite that is most loud and clear in the training, and if it’s not, I difcult for you to receive training. would suggest maybe it’s time to revisit it. In the past, we have looked at opportunities to be able to My question is: is the section on disability and interacting partner with other institutions in other parts of the province with people and learning about disability covered in the to be able to deliver this curriculum. And if there was a push training? Is it provided by people with disabilities? Or is it for that, we’d be happy to do that. It’s difcult and challen- provided just sort of by context, by an instructor who doesn’t ging for us to be able to go out there and do that and push for have a disability? that because the current setup of regulation is really a patch- work system of bylaws. So the training is a requirement with- H. Randhawa: I’ll try to answer your question as clearly in the municipal bylaws. as I can. It is twofold in the sense that they are professional Unless Terrace goes and says, “Hey, we want this particu- instructors, and they do have disabilities, but they are not lar training,” and puts it within their bylaws, it’s very difcult visible disabilities. for us to roll it out there. Having an on-line course, which is something that we’ve put together, really is an opportunity to S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Okay. Ten I would suggest be able to fll that gap, because somebody that might be in that anything you’re going to provide on line would be Prince George or in Prince Rupert or somewhere else, who equally as valuable, as it relates to actually learning about feels that their community is being underserved right now, interaction. Everything you’re providing is good informa- can go ahead and have their drivers go through something. tion, but you’re providing information in a course. People It might not be hands-on. It might not be to the level that say: “Yeah, I’ve learned it.”Whether or not they choose to put we’re able to achieve here, but we may be able to partner with that into practice is entirely up to the individual. an educational facility up there to be able to provide that Individuals are much likely better served, or equally well hands-on component. served, by a rating system that can tell somebody: “Don’t use this person. Tey’re not pleasant. Tey’re not helpful.” S. Chandra Herbert: Okay. You’ve answered my question. Tey’re not whatever. Te fact that we don’t have that today Tank you. is actually probably more of a challenge than the fact that some people will take training and some people won’t. Some S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Overall, I’d say I think that people won’t need that training to provide good service, and the introduction of the TaxiHost and TaxiHost Pro programs some people will get the training and still not provide good were a big improvement, and I think, overall, it does provide service. Isn’t that true? a good service. [10:30 a.m.] H. Randhawa: Yes, but I could say the same thing about We’re talking about something diferent here. We’re talk- driving and drivers’ licences. ing about moving with the world in terms of how citizens are choosing to receive a service — choosing to receive a service. S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Yep, absolutely. Tis isn’t about government, I don’t think, choosing, neces- sarily, to tell citizens how they should choose to receive a ser- B. Ma (Chair): All right. Tank you so much to you both vice. for spending the time to present to us today and to our Two quick questions. I think when it relates to the training answer questions. We really appreciate it. of drivers around transporting people with disabilities, spe- Our next presenter will be joining us via teleconference — cifcally wheelchairs in wheelchair-accessible vehicles, the Alejandro Henao. securing of the mobility device is pretty freaking crucial. Alejandro, my name is Bowinn Ma. I’m the Chair of the Select Standing Committee on Crown Corporations. We H. Randhawa: Yes, it is. have nine members on the committee, and they’re all here with me, but we can hear you over the teleconference. Can S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Tat piece, I think, is really you remind us where you’re calling in from today? important, but it’s only important to those people who have a specially modifed van and are going to transport people A. Henao: I actually live on Bainbridge Island in Wash- in a mobility device. Te bigger piece that is covered around ington, United States. accessibility and inclusion and the equity and all these sorts of pieces in TaxiHost — about human rights pieces, how to B. Ma (Chair): Wonderful. Tank you so much for join- interact with other people — is really important. ing us. You will have 25 minutes to present uninterrupted, Te key message and the key takeaway is be polite and ask. and that will be followed by 20 minutes of questions. If you Ask the individual what they need, don’t assume, because leave any time available during your presentation, then we’ll every individual with a disability is going to need something just roll that into questions. Did you have any questions for diferent or prefer something diferent in terms of the receipt us before you begin? of service. So I’m assuming that that is probably the message [10:35 a.m.] 212 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

A. Henao: I don’t have any questions. On slide 5, I’m just showing here the growth of Uber and Lyf around the globe, and in the U.S. for Lyf, based on when B. Ma (Chair): Wonderful. We really appreciate you tak- they provided a billion ride mark. It’s just trying to put it into ing the time to present to us today on the four questions that perspective that these services are continuing to grow, both we have. When you’re ready, please proceed. in the U.S. and globally. I think it’s important to pay atten- tion to them and see what they are doing for cities. ALEJANDRO HENAO Again, now on slide 6, it’s about the question of: how should regulation balance the supply of services with con- A. Henao: I apologize for not being there in person. I sumer demand? was planning to be there since it’s not too far of a trip, but [10:40 a.m.] I learned recently that the ferry was not operating today. I Ten on slide 7, I started to dig into this topic. I think didn’t want to be there for a long time. that what the regulation’s perspective is trying to do is bal- Anyway, I think the committee reached out from maybe ance priorities. In the world of transportation, and specifc- seeing my association of work that I did while I was in grad ally for transportation network services, you’re impacting school at the University of Colorado for my PhD. I currently several diferent actors here. One is from the passenger side. work with NREL. It’s the National Renewable Energy Labor- How does a new service or a new transportation mode allow atory, but today I’m not representing any institutions. What people to get around better? Or is it serving certain needs? I’m going to be presenting is just based on the research I have Is it making it more convenient in terms of availability and done, and these are my own opinions about these topics. costs and so on? If we go to slide 2, you can see a list of my background and Now, you can think of the providers or the private com- expertise on the topic, both starting probably in 2014, trying panies themselves or the non-profts — whatever the service to understand the impacts of services such as Uber and Lyf is. Is the regulation allowed to support the business to suc- in transportation while doing my PhD in civil engineering. I ceed and to continue to grow? actually have a couple of publications, starting with my dis- Ten you have the drivers that are usually part of the pro- sertation and a few other peer review journals. If you guys vider service. One of the topics that really came to mind is: is want to have access to those publications and so on, there’s it ensuring a decent income for so many drivers that are out free access either through the links that I’ve provided or on there, even meeting minimum wage? Some of the research is my website or you can email me, and I’ll be happy to provide kind of up in the air about even meeting minimum wage in a copy of those papers. certain areas. Going to slide 3 on the areas of regulations that the com- In the bigger picture, how are these, overall, impacting the mittee…. On the four areas that you were asking for certain cities and the public good? Is it supporting outcomes that, things to do, my focus will be on: how shall regulations bal- let’s say, minimize negative impacts and provide positive out- ance the supply of service with consumer demand, including comes? In terms of congestion, is it increasing or decreasing the application of the Passenger Transportation Board’s cur- congestion, emissions, energy use, safety and equity? rent public convenience and necessity regime as it pertains Looking at slide 8, when you talk about: what is the idea of to transportation network services? supply when you’re balancing several of these priorities…? I have touched on some of the other three topics. I’ve done If you tend to do an oversupply, you’re going to afect some work around it, but just for time and just the interest of things, and then you’re going to favour others. Same thing the committee, the presentation is based around that specifc happens with the undersupply. Both in some scenarios are, topic. let’s say, no good. How do you balance all of that? Tat’s kind If we go on to slide 4, every time I do a presentation or of like the question that is trying to get answered or trying to talk about these topics, it’s very important to clear the air help with moving into the regulation space. around taxonomy and terminology that we’re talking about. It’s like 9 kind of talks about if we oversupplied the market I listed here several diferent names that we have done and with so many vehicles or drivers going around, you might used for these services. Tis varies globally, depending on create higher congestion with those drivers cruising around where you’re talking and also for legal terms and so on. We in between rides. It could create lower vehicle occupancy are also starting to work on some defnitions and termino- because then there are so many cars out there that people logy around this, but just to be clear, what we’re talking about are using this service as if they were the only ones taking here is in relation to the emerging modes, most notably for this service. Tere might be more drivers, but because you the companies Uber and Lyf, but there are many more in have to spread the demand among more supply, then they’re this space that provide that type of service. going to end up making less income. In academia, we tend to use the term “ride-sourcing,” but I’m actually originally from Cali, Colombia, in South I know the committee has defned it as transportation net- America. Tis is an issue there because there is so much work services. With some legislation in California, it’s trans- oversupply. Tere are so many taxis going around, and then portation network companies. Anyways, I think it’s import- there are so many drivers that sometimes they don’t make ant just to understand what we’re talking about here. the minimum-wage requirement. Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 213

Now, in the undersupply scenario — so if you don’t have On slide 17, this is going deeper into the actual service. enough numbers of vehicles or drivers for the demand — You have a lot of drivers living in the outskirts of the city. you’re still going to have some type of congestion because the Sometimes they have to commute into the city, so there is drivers have to go and pick up the passengers. If you don’t the frst component of the whole deadheading. And then have enough, then that creates some type of deadheading. I once they turn that app on, whatever the location that they will explain what that means in a second. feel like starting the day to work on, then they go cruise Tese might increase vehicle occupancy rates because you around for a ride. Ten they get the request, and then from have less…. People might be more likely to pool and use one the request they have to go and pick up the passenger. And vehicle for a ride where people are going to go to or from the from all of these sections of the driving, only the green one same place. Again, there are less drivers, so there might be is the one that you are moving a passenger. Everything else is higher average driver incomes. So, again, it’s trying to bal- called deadheading because you have empty kilometres dur- ance the oversupply and undersupply. ing that travel. One of the things that I do a lot of research about is — In some of the papers that I’ve published, and looking at jumping into slide 10 — congestion. more of the scarce data that we have, we have come up with Slide 11 is just showing a picture of New York. When you rates of 0.7 to 1 kilometre in deadheading for every 1 kilo- talk about congestion, what happens is that you’re demand- metre that you are moving a passenger. So that’s about 41 to ing the use of a constricted space over time. How can you 49 percent of the total driving kilometres that there are. try to solve congestion or more efciently use the space in Jumping to slide 18, I’ve tried to look at this in more detail regards to moving people and moving goods instead of just to think about how you optimize the feet, which is the sup- thinking about moving vehicles? Tere are other modes that ply, given a demand. With Uber and Lyf or, in general, the might help with that. transportation network services, the demand for these ser- [10:45 a.m.] vices varies a lot. It’s very dynamic. So it’s not about, let’s say, In this picture, there are a lot of taxis, and there might be putting a cap or doing this but optimizing the feet, given a some of these that are Uber and Lyf drivers. We don’t even demand per hour or whatever range of hours you want to know if they’re carrying a passenger or not, while the bus or optimize that for. other modes are not using…. Or the bus might be carrying a Looking at this in more detail, we’re starting to look at lot of people on it and use that space more efciently. Or the every hour — how many passenger requests there were and pedestrian or the biker who doesn’t use as much space…. how many vehicles were on the road — to see if that infu- Jumping to slide 12, what it shows is…. Tis is a recent ences the amount of deadheading or the amount that circu- picture that was taken in Washington, D.C., just to show a lot lating around and cruising around and overheading, so that of taxis, Ubers and Lyfs waiting for the next ride at the air- once you get the request to pick up the passenger, it happens. port. Tere’s a lot of these that…. [10:50 a.m.] I want to jump into the next topic, which is, on slide 13, Tere is a relationship that…. Teoretically, I have been what I call, and the research in engineering calls, deadhead- exploring this for years, saying that it follows a polynomial ing. So this is empty kilometres. function. Te problem with this is that we don’t have much Slide 14, going more deeply into what it is…. Te term data to prove this. “deadheading” is mostly used for the taxi and trucking Tere was a company called RideAustin. It’s a non-proft industry — that’s kind of the history of it — and refers that came into service in Austin, Texas, in the United States. to the distance travelled without passengers or freight. So Tey are a non-proft, so they were able to share some of think about those taxis or those Ubers or those Lyfs going the data. We have been doing some analysis with that data, around without passengers. Tat’s what we call deadheading which was about 1.5 million rides — trying to look at the or empty kilometres. optimum of the feet, because having too much might create In slide 16…. I usually show an example of a typical dead- deadheading by the drivers cruising around. Ten on the heading trip, which made the news — a famous NFL football lower end, you still have to pick up those passengers. Tat’s player who misses a plane to go for a game in Chicago. He why I think we fnd an optimum based on deadheading. But ends up actually getting into an Uber. Te Uber driver drove you can optimize the feet based on so many other diferent him from Bufalo to Chicago. You can see on slide 16 all the things. distance. It was about 540 miles going from Bufalo to Chica- Jumping to slide 19, why is deadheading important? It’s go, and the news went all over about the conversations that because we talk a lot about single-occupancy vehicles, the they had and so on. drivers. Tat’s what, a lot of the time, the congestion is cre- My frst thought was: what was that driver doing afer he ated by, people just driving around by themselves. But what dropped of the NFL player in Chicago? He has to go all the happens with these services is that a lot of the time, you way back to Bufalo. I actually don’t know, but I’m guessing might create even bigger congestion if there are some rates of that he drove all the way back by himself. So that’s about 869 deadheading, and then they are only carrying one passenger kilometres that we might call deadheading, because he didn’t and so on. move any passenger for all that distance. For part of my dissertation, I was able to sign up and 214 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 drive for Uber and Lyf. I was able to collect data specifcally target goals, then you have the experimentation to see what on rides that happened in the Denver region. Again, this is can work. You provide some innovative ideas where tech- based on specifc areas because we don’t have the data that nology will help, because that is the direction we’re moving. we have been hoping to get to really analyze this more in dif- And then thinking about being bold about what kinds of ferent regions. decisions we can make. What I wanted to show here is that even for the region in Jumping to slide 24, talking more about the data. Again, I Denver, when you take into account the miles or the kilo- started studying this in 2014. I started as just a regular pas- metres that you go without any passengers or with one pas- senger, but I have always had this interest in studying taxis senger, or even two, three or four, then you average that and how these work and so on. But even back in the day, we based on the number of kilometres or miles, then you’re started seeing that Lyf and Uber wouldn’t release any data to going to average about 0.78 passengers or vehicle occupancy understand some of these issues. Tat was part of the reas- — how many passengers are in the car. Again, this is just for on I decided to become an Uber and Lyf driver for my PhD. a specifc region. But overall, we feel pretty safe to say that it’s I developed ethnographic research to collect that data and about 0.8 to 0.9 that usually happens with the deadheading also survey passengers. occurring. Te data that I’m showing here…. Tere’s nothing to dig If you go to slide 20, what I tried to envision or look at is, into, the graphics. Tese are just part of some of the papers thinking about a transportation service or a system provided that I have published by myself or with my colleagues. Again, to a city, when you think about how many people you can this is what really will drive how you can measure change move per hour per lane via various modes of transportation, and how we can move in the right direction. None of the if you take into account the space, the area of use, the vehicle data or the studies I did here came from the main providers. occupancy and even the diferent speeds and so on, you end Slide 25 talks about the strategy. Strategy 1 is performance up moving even less people with these services than you will standards. Number 2 is fees with incentives with a net. For with cars, unless you start increasing the carpooling, if you both of them, again, you need data. start moving more people per ride — when you’re talking Jumping to slide 26, about the strategy on performance about two, three or four passengers per ride — and unless standards. Again, frst is data, the requirement to operate. you minimize the deadheading, so having the least possible Te second is: determine how many, of all trips that you are amount of drivers going around without passengers. moving in the region, you want to provide by these services. Let me go to slide 21. Tis is where I kind of wrap it up You should keep in mind there are spatial and temporal dif- with the last few slides. ferences. One thing is to provide service in the core of the Tinking about regulations, slide 22 talks about what reg- city. Another thing is to provide services in the outskirts of ulations should do. You should think about regulations to the city. One thing is to provide services from 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. support positive outcomes. We want to increase equity and in the peak hours or in the afernoon peak. Another thing is accessibility. We want to encourage sustainable modes. We to provide those services overnight. want to increase vehicle occupancy, those pooling modes. I think, again, having that spatial-temporal is important. We want to increase the use of vehicles that are high fuel-ef- Ten you can set up target measurements for performance ciency and electric vehicles so that we can reduce the energy standards. For example, you can set up a target of 1.5 to two use. We want to increase safety. Positive outcomes that can passengers per vehicle when you average all the kilometres come with new modes and regulations. that these services are providing, including the deadhead- You also want to discourage those negative outcomes. Is ing or the zero. Ten you charge the fee per kilometre based this going to be a more inequitable service? Is this going on those that are under those standards and even incentiv- to continue that car dependency and just provide a ride for ize or subsidize those that are above the target. Tis is just an the solo riders? Is this going to minimize deadheading or example of how some of the regulations can be provided to increase deadheading, in this case? Is this going to discour- really meet those targets and move along in the right direc- age the low fuel-efciency vehicles? tion. Te same can happen with equity and some of the other Tose are the kinds of things that, in terms of regulations, modes. I feel you should do. Strategy 2 on slide 27 is data — the requirement to oper- [10:55 a.m.] ate. Ten you charge a fee per kilometre driven with and Jumping to slide 23, thinking about what is needed. What without passengers — for example, 15 cents per kilometre. is needed to make better decisions in terms of regulations? Ten you discount or incentivize the initial pay based on And how can research and all the diferent actors and dif- number of passengers. For example, you can get fve cents ferent things that go into place…? Te frst thing, without per kilometre for every passenger or for areas with lower a doubt, is the data. You really need that data to be able to income or accessibility issues or for vehicles that are high make the decisions. Tat is an issue that every single city fuel-efciency or EVs. Ten you can incentivize a move in where these companies operate is having a problem with. the right direction that you want to move in. Te second thing is with experimentation. Once you have Ten my last slide here, slide 28, is on evaluation. You the data, once you start setting out those metrics and those want to experiment for a period of time long enough — Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 215 let’s say six months — to overcome those barriers that might R. Kahlon: Tank you so much for this presentation. It’s come from the providers, the public, the drivers and every- helpful. one else and provide the right evaluation to understand what I had a question around your fees with incentives. You’ve works and what doesn’t work. Ten you let data and metrics got a cost associated with how many passengers, how many drive that evaluation, supported by researchers. Ten you kilometres you’ve travelled. But there’s also a cost for taking adjust as necessary. up parking spots in, say, a downtown core. Have you con- [11:00 a.m.] sidered that? Have you looked at other examples, where Tat’s all I have to say for today. I think we’re at the people just occupy all the parking spots in a town, waiting 25-minute mark. for their trip to be picked up? Obviously, there’s a cost asso- ciated with that. B. Ma (Chair): You’ve still got 12 seconds, if there’s…. Tank you so much. Your timing is fantastic. We’ll now A. Henao: Tat’s a great question. I think it’s tied to: how open it up for questions. do you want to manage the curb space? One of the things that I would like to explore — again, the issue is the data — R. Singh: Tank you so much for your presentation. We is diferent drivers’ strategies. Because I drove for Uber and heard yesterday…. I can say for myself that I heard for the Lyf and because I’ve talked to a lot of the drivers and am try- frst time about the Austin co-op that was operating there. ing to do work around this, I hypothesize that there are three I didn’t know about it before. You also mention it in your diferent drivers’ strategies. report. One is the typical taxi drivers — that once you drop some- Can you just give a little bit more information? When you body of, you kind of continue to circle around for a next say it was optimum, why do you say that? How was that ride. operating? [11:05 a.m.] Tere is the second strategy, which is thinking about the A. Henao: What is out there is limited data. But when specifc areas that you want to go afer you drop somebody we talk about optimum…. I mean, I can go deeper into the of, if you don’t get a request right away. Let’s say you give engineering and how we calculate this. But in an economics somebody a ride that goes out to the suburbs. Ten you term, you’d think about: once the change of the X is the same know the probability of getting a ride there is lower, so you as the change of Y, then that’s when you fnd the optimum of start heading back towards the core. saying that, at this point, you want to have the right amount Te third one is more on trying to minimize the dead- of supply, given the demand, to minimize the deadheading. heading or the circling around, which is trying to fnd a Let’s say for this optimum study, what we were trying to parking spot as soon as possible. I do think that there should do is: what is the right number of supply — so vehicles oper- be some area of regulation around parking and the use of the ating — given a demand that varies along the day? One thing curb space. I mean, I’ve done some work. You guys are prob- is to have X percentage of drivers for X amount of passenger ably familiar with Donald Shoup’s book about the high cost requests, aiming so that ratio is the minimum that you will of free parking. I can’t worry about the high cost of free curb experience in deadheading. space and what it will do with these services or people want- I don’t like to make general assumptions here. But for that ing to get access to the curb. specifc case, we were talking about…. I’m trying to go back I do believe that it should be tied into some of these. Tat’s to the slide. You aim for, let’s say, around 25 to 30 percent of a good question. Tat’s something that could be incentivized the demand that you have the vehicles, which will minimize or put on top of…. Charge a fee per kilometre driven but also the deadheading but is still meeting the passenger requests. charge a fee per space used. Maybe it’s lower. Tat way, you It’s because if you don’t have enough either, passengers are don’t create bigger congestion. going to have to wait longer times. Again, it depends on what you as a city or the parliament I’m just guessing here, but these companies might be or B.C. cares about. So it’s trying to incentivize those things optimizing based on waiting times for passengers. So let’s in a way that you don’t actually create a worse problem. say they want the passengers to only be waiting two or three minutes. In order to do that, they are going to saturate the R. Kahlon: Great. Tank you for that. Just a follow-up market with vehicles to meet that. But then that, again, cre- question. You’ve highlighted data, and you’ve highlighted ates some issues of deadheading. So how do you optimize some of the challenges of getting access to data. Are you that so you are balancing the requests for the passengers? aware of jurisdictions that have gotten it right, on requiring Maybe, in this scenario, the passengers are going to have to TNS companies and taxi companies to provide data? And wait four or six minutes, but the outcome, the positive, is the what data do you think is crucial that we ensure that we get deadheading is going to get minimized. access to? Tat’s where I’m talking about optimization problem. A. Henao: In this, I feel like airports have been very pro- gressive and very successful in trying to deal with these ser- 216 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 vices. Just to give you an example, some of the airports in the recommended to us as well. Tey had recommended a per- U.S. charge a fee for pick-up or drop-of at the airport. Tat trip fee, but that’s because they were afer diferent goals, as way, because they have to pay that specifc fee per passenger, you say. Tey had suggested a per-trip fee that fuctuated we were actually able to get data on how many people are depending on the time of day — so in accordance with the getting to and from the airport via this type of service. amount of congestion in certain areas, efectively — to try Again, this is kind of more related to the economics. So to move optional trips outside of peak congestion periods. once you start saying, “We’re going to let you operate, but Congestion is quite a signifcant issue for us in the Metro you have to pay that fee,” then they pay the fee, and that’s Vancouver. how you get the data. I think there’s some legislation starting Based on your strategy…. Your strategy appears to be to work around this in California. Tere is a procedure called more to do with reducing vehicle kilometres driven per pas- clean miles. It’s thinking about what specifc data is required. senger movement, which is also a very important incentive In some of the things where I talk about how technology from an environmental perspective and a resource perspect- can help…. If you are able to, say, for every mile or every ive — and congestion as well, of course. Do you see those kilometre that the companies do, tie that to the vehicle occu- two types of charges being able to work together — like, pancy — to know how many passengers are there per kilo- almost overlapped, or are they in confict with each other? metre driven — that will be enough to say: “Let’s set up all How do you feel about that? these metrics.” Tey worry a lot about privacy issues and some of the A. Henao: I defnitely see overlaps. Again, I put examples things that they might say, but there are ways, also, around here of what amount that is. But let’s say if you decide to start that. If you say that every month or every six months you X amount of 15 per kilometre, but because this is from one have to let us know how many kilometres were with zero in the morning to fve in the morning where there is no pub- passengers, how many kilometres were with one passenger, lic transportation in service or it’s not as good coverage, then and how many kilometres were with two passenger and so you can have an incentive there for ten cents or even 15 cents on…. Even that type of specifc very general data that doesn’t for operating during those times. Tat’s when you go from compromise anything else will help you determine whether the 15 to the zero — during those times. or not this is helping with the goals of the city. Te per-trip fee. I mean, that’s what airports are doing. Ten again, you set up the targets, you set up the metrics, One thing that I always encourage to think about is on the and they should be on board to try to help these. Because fees, but based on vehicle occupancy. Again, because you also, at the same time, the higher that vehicle occupancy is, might put in some of these…. If you’re not doing them in the the more money they make. So trying to work around some right way, you might be discouraging the car-pooling trips, of those incentives that, by giving the data and showing that, or you might discourage using this service with somebody then they will do that…. else and driving yourself. Or even if you can provide or let Te other thing is, if you provide, let’s say, at the get-go, them show you that a lot of the trips aren’t being made with you’re going to pay for every kilometre that you are going transit…. to…. You pay X amount, so 15 cents or whatever you deter- I know Uber and Lyf had a conversation recently of, let’s mine it is, for every kilometre that you’re operating. Tat’s say, even in the platform, if there is a request for trips that the start of it, then every time they have an incentive, they’re could happen in public transportation, you can actually going to show that data. book it that way too. So there could be an incentive in there [11:10 a.m.] for: “If you show us that some of the trips were actually in It’s in their own interest to give you that data to show you that you have in transit, then we will give you an additional that they’re meeting certain targets. Tey don’t want to pay incentive.” as much, because they’re either having a higher vehicle occu- I have conversations, let’s say, with the city of Boulder, pancy or the vehicles the drivers are using are more fuel-ef- which is a smaller university campus city. Tey say: “We’re cient or they are operating in areas with lower income or not interested in collecting money. We’re interested more in they are giving rides to people with disabilities or they are moving people more efciently.” So in these kinds of scen- keeping a safety track record for the drivers not having any arios, they don’t care about making [inaudible recording]. crashes. Some of the cities actually wanted a net zero. Tey don’t want At the beginning, they make you do something. But then to make any money or additional funds for this, just as long you incentivize to: show me more data that actually you are as you’re incentivizing those that are providing rides in lower helping in moving in the right direction. incomes or rides during nighttime or rides that are in more fuel-efcient vehicles or rides that have three or four people B. Ma (Chair): Any other questions from committee in the vehicle. members? I have a few questions myself. [11:15 a.m.] I found your page 27, your fees-with-incentives strategy, Te airports have started implementing that fee just to be very interesting. It’s similar to another strategy that our because they see the revenues coming down. Tat might local public transportation authority, called TransLink, had Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 217

happen with parking. Tat might happen with the city as B. Ma (Chair): All right. I just want to thank you again for well. Tis is trying to manage them. joining us once more. I know that you had presented to us And the additional funds? Use them for supporting public in the previous rendition of this committee as well. So thank transportation infrastructure or biking or sidewalks or bike you so much. You may go ahead and proceed. lanes — things that the city or B.C. might care about and that you want to incentivize. STEVEN HILL

B. Ma (Chair): Do you believe that a per-kilometre charge S. Hill: My name is Steven Hill. I’m a journalist based in can be used in conjunction with a per-trip fee in order to Silicon Valley in San Francisco and have been writing about optimize your outcomes? Or do you believe that if we were issues related to the digital economy, including ride-renting, to go with fees, it needs to stick with one or the other? as I call it, or ride-sharing, ride-hailing. Tere are a lot of dif- ferent names. A. Henao: Te reason I usually I ask for the per kilometre I’ve followed these companies from their beginnings and is because of the data that will allow us to do more work followed their rather interesting trajectory as they have sort around this or do more research about it. I think the per- of morphed their business model trying to fnd a business trip fee might be okay. But then again, you will have to think model that provides a service to consumers that is afordable about…. Okay. You charge this per-trip fee. So maybe it but also allows them to make a proft. At the end of the day, will be structurally diferent, depending on the vehicle occu- that’s what these companies are seeking to do. pancy or some of the other things. In some ways, as you think about regulating and how to I think they’re complementary. It’s just working on the regulate these companies…. I think it’s rather simple, with details that you will have to work around, and the incentives. some complexities that I’ll get into. It’s simple because Uber and Lyf are really just another type of taxi. Tat’s really all it B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. is. Are there any last questions? I think a lot of cities have made the mistake of overcom- Seeing none here, we are going to let you go. Tank you plicating this and making it seem like this is somehow new so much for taking the time to make this presentation for and diferent, that this is some kind of new technology and us and to actually call in and do this in real time. We really that we have to be more careful about technology. Certainly, appreciate it. there’s technology involved, but in fact, the service they’re providing is the exact same as taxis. A. Henao: Tank you for the invitation. Feel free to reach By keeping focused on that, it will help to clarify, perhaps, out if you have more questions. a lot of the issues that you’re trying to deal with. At the end of the day, the consumer just wants a safe ride from point A B. Ma (Chair): All right. Wonderful. to point B at an afordable price. Let’s call another four-minute recess. We’ll reconvene just Te experience in city afer city, including in San Fran- shortly afer 11:20 so that we can get our next presenter on cisco, of getting this kind of service from Uber and Lyf has the phone. been extremely mixed. Tere are signifcant downsides to the business model that Uber and Lyf use and that allows Te committee recessed from 11:17 a.m. to 11:25 a.m. these companies to operate, especially if you don’t put the right rules and regulations around them to make sure that [B. Ma in the chair.] your transportation system will work the way you want it to work, instead of the way Uber and Lyf want it to work. B. Ma (Chair): I believe we have Steven Hill with us by Here’s a brief outline of the problems that you can expect teleconference. to encounter once you open the doors to these companies. Tis is Bowinn Ma speaking. I’m the Chair of the Select Environmental issues. People love their convenience. It’s Standing Committee on Crown Corporations. We have here understandable why. You tap the app; the car shows up. It around the table nine members of the committee, all elected sounds great on paper, but in fact, it’s an enormous price for Members of the Legislative Assembly. We also have a live this convenience. studio audience with us as well. You’re here over teleconfer- In city afer city, especially major cities where there is a ence, of course. lot of this type of activity, the reason why the cost shows Steven, we will be providing you with 25 minutes to do up is really simple. It’s because these companies food the your presentation uninterrupted, and that will be followed streets with cars. You can expect that there’s going to be huge by 20 minutes of questions. If you end your presentation increase in congestion in your cities, particularly bigger cit- early, we’ll just roll the extra time into questions. Did you ies like Vancouver. have any questions for us before we begin? [11:30 a.m.] I’ll give you an example. In San Francisco, at any one time, S. Hill: No, I don’t think so. there are about 1,800 taxicabs on the street — regular, tradi- 218 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 tional taxicabs. At the same time, there are over 9,000 ride- this medallion so that they can drive as a taxi. Suddenly, the renting vehicles. Tere are over 45,000 of those vehicles that value of that medallion, afer the introduction of ride-rent- have registered in San Francisco. ing, plummeted to less than $200,000. You can see this pattern throughout the other cities. In Tese drivers are basically working-class people. A lot of New York City, London, all the diferent cities where this them are immigrants, minorities, who have invested their has happened, you see that generally speaking, the number life savings into this kind of thing, into the medallion, and of ride-renting vehicles on your streets will be about four to suddenly, they fnd that they have lost pretty much fve times the number of traditional taxis. Cities are already everything. Tis has led to a lot of economic stress, including fairly congested. When you suddenly introduce that number suicide for eight of these drivers. It’s a real phenomenon. You of vehicles that are on the streets all the time, and they are have to really think about it, I believe. roaming the streets looking for passengers, you can expect Te other thing that will happen — it’s happened in city that there’s going to be an increase in congestion. Tere’s just afer city in the United States — is that you’re undermining no question about it. And congestion hurts everybody. public transportation. In city afer city, ridership is down, Certainly, by ofering ride-renting, you’ve increased the and the reason why is because Uber and Lyf subsidize their convenience for those that use ride-renting, but studies have rides. Tese are global companies with billions of dollars in been shown about how many people in a city are using this venture capital, and they use that venture capital so that they sort of service. It’s anywhere from, depending on the city, can lower the cost of their rides artifcially and engage in 18 to about 25 percent of people who are using it. For those predatory pricing. Te price for an Uber or Lyf has been people, you’ve ofered another transportation option that estimated to be about 50 percent of the actual cost. most of them like quite a lot, but you’ve made it way more [11:35 a.m.] congested for everyone else, including for public transporta- Basically, the competition, whether it’s the existing tradi- tion that is not operating underground. So that’s something tional taxi companies or even public transportation, have to that you really should consider. compete with these venture capital–backed subsidies that are Now, because you’ve fooded the streets with this type of artifcially lowering the prices in order to wipe out the loc- vehicle, what you also are going to be creating are certain al competition. Tat’s the goal of it. Tat local competition labour issues. With so many drivers on the road all seeking includes mass transportation, public transportation. to be taxicabs of one type or another, there’s not going to I recently asked someone I know here in San Francisco…. be enough work for everyone. So the wages for the average He was waiting for his Lyf to come. I said to him: “Why are ride-renting driver, afer you subtract their considerable you taking that rather than public transportation?” He said: expenses, have been shown, in many studies at this point, to “Well, if I were to take the bus, it’s going to cost me about $3 be less than the minimum wage in many U.S. cities. U.S., and the cost of the Lyf is going to be only about $5. You Te expenses for drivers who are doing ride-renting are know, it’s a little bit more expensive, but the convenience is considerable, for insurance and wear and tear on their car. way better. So yeah, that’s what I take.” When you ask a lot of these drivers, “How much are you I asked him: “What if the cost to you to take Lyf was actu- making?” a lot of them don’t even fgure out that…. You ally double that, $10, which is actually the cost of that ride?” know, if you bought a new car, it’s going to last you, normally, He said: “Well, yeah, then I probably would do it a lot less.” at least ten years. Well, if you’re using it for ride-renting, it Tat’s the economic incentive that you will be introducing might last you three or four years. Tey aren’t experienced in into your cities when you bring ride-renting into it. amortizing the expenses of that wear and tear on their car to Again, these are big, global companies. Tey have billions really know how much they’re making. A lot of them initially of dollars in venture capital funding. Tey are using that think they’re doing well, making decent money, but in fact, funding to subsidize rides. And those rides undercut the loc- they’re not. Tis is a poorly paid job. al transportation that can’t aford to subsidize it any more In the meantime, you’re going to be undermining the eco- than they already are, in the case of public transportation. nomic bargaining power of existing taxi drivers because In San Francisco, one of the recent…. I’m not some big they’re going to have to be competing on the same terrain advocate of taxis versus ride-renting, but I think you do have as these thousands of new ride-renting drivers that you’re to be concerned about…. If you undermine the health of going to have on the road. Tis can lead to rather dire con- your existing taxi ecosystem, what impact will that have? sequences. I don’t say this in a way to make it sound hyper- In city afer city, we’ve seen taxi companies declaring bank- bolic, but it’s real. In New York City in 2018, there were eight ruptcy, some of them going out of business. If that happens taxi and livery drivers who committed suicide because of the too much and suddenly you’re lef with just Uber or Lyf, economic ruin that ride-renting brought to their lives. now they’re in a position to increase the prices again and I’m not completely certain how it works in Vancouver and raise them to the cost. other cities in British Columbia, but in the U.S. system, you Because keep in mind, these are proft-seeking companies, have to buy the medallion or the plate, as it’s called. Tat can as any transportation company is. It’s not public, and these be quite expensive, so you have lots of drivers who have paid companies are going towards their IPOs sometime. Tey’ve — in New York City, for example — over $1 million to have Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 219 announced they’ll probably do it sometime in 2019. So at able, I think you have to wonder about that and you have to some point, they do have to turn a proft. be concerned about that. Tey’re not going to be able to subsidize these rides Now, in order to fnd proftability, these companies have forever, unless they can fnd some other source of revenue, engaged in a number of what in Silicon Valley is called, such as using people’s data and monetizing that in some way somewhat euphemistically, a pivot. A pivot means you’ve got that allows them to keep subsidizing. No one knows how to change your business model, because you have to keep they’re going to keep subsidizing these rides forever. Uber your investors happy in order to keep those venture capit- and Lyf have not given anyone a plan of how they’ll contin- al subsidies rolling in so you can keep subsidizing rides. So ue to do this forever. they’ve tried a number of diferent pivots in order to increase Te assumption is that at some point, they’re going to have their revenues. Tey’ve tried, for example, Uber Pool. Uber to start raising the price of these rides. Tey’re not going to Pool is like…. Tey try to get more than one passenger in be able to keep subsidizing them forever, because venture the car. It’s like an airport shuttle. Everybody is picked up in capital funders eventually want their proft in their stocks to serial fashion one afer the other, and then the driver drops go up. them of in serial fashion. Safety. Te background checks done by Uber and Lyf are Tere was big hype around Uber Pool. Tis is not only beneath the industry standard in the United States, mostly going to increase their revenue, the company said, but it’s because they do not include fngerprinting. Tis is somewhat also going to be better for the environment because you have controversial. Uber and Lyf insist that fngerprinting is not more people in the vehicle. It has actually turned out to not necessary. Tey actually had to withdraw from Austin, Texas, be such a popular service because drivers hate it. Tey’re for a time, because the city council there passed a law requir- picking up more than one passenger. It’s crazy. Tey’re driv- ing fngerprinting. Uber and Lyf pulled out of that city in ing all over town, dropping people of. Tey’re not really protest over this law. I guess this is something that you’re making any more money for this convenience and more going to have to decide. Do you want to include things like wear and tear on their car. fngerprinting? Te consumers don’t really like it that much because, if Also, adequate insurance. Uber and Lyf in diferent cities you’re the frst person picked up, you might be the fourth have had inadequate insurance on their vehicles. Tey ofen- one dropped of. So you can’t really rely on how quickly times rely on the private insurance of the person who’s driv- you’ll get somewhere. So if you have a lot of time and you ing their own private vehicle. But a lot of times, private don’t have to worry about getting somewhere on time, it is insurers in the United States don’t allow you to use your cheaper for you. It’s just turned out to be a very mixed exper- automobile for commercial purposes. If something were to ience for the consumer. happen…. Tere have been lots of incidences of accidents Tey’ve also tried Uber Eats, which is delivering food. happening and the Uber or Lyf driver is completely pan- Uber Eats has also not been wildly successful in terms of icked, because they know that their private insurance doesn’t bringing in more revenue. I mean, you’re competing with cover it and Uber doesn’t cover it or Lyf doesn’t cover it. other food delivery services and pizza delivery services. Tey’re really in a tough situation. Tere’s not a whole lot of money to be made in delivering an I think you really have to think about these background $8 burrito, in actual fact. So this has not been a big money checks, fngerprinting, insurance. I’ve been doing some deliverer for them. reading on line on what’s being debated there. I know you Tey’ve also introduced more recently Uber Freight, are talking about these issues. I just want to underscore how which is more delivery, competing with more like the FedEx important that is. and UPS type of deliveries to deliver packages. But now [11:40 a.m.] Amazon is delivering packages. Again, the margins are very I think you also have to ask and be concerned about: low on this and increasingly so. It’s not expected to be a big are these companies stable? Tese companies, despite their game changer in terms of improving their bottom line. wild popularity among a certain sector of urban dwellers, are Tey’ve also more recently gotten into the latest transport- actually losing billions and billions of dollars every year. In ation craze, which is scooters and electric bikes. Again, the 2017, just one company, Uber, lost about $4.6 billion. Lyf jury is still out on this, with the scooters and electric bikes. lost another couple billion. In 2018, the numbers aren’t fnal For the people who are using them, they like them a lot. yet, but it looks like they lost probably around the same Tere’s more convenience there. But it’s still a small number amount. of people who are using it. Tey’re losing so much money because they’re subsidizing In the meantime, it’s causing disruption and havoc for rides. I mean, the reality is that every time somebody gets in everyone else, including some of the people that are using that Uber or Lyf and uses it, the company is losing money. the scooters. Tey’re fnding out, when you don’t have a hel- And the greater they expand their ridership, the more met and people are just stepping on the scooters and taking money they lose. Tis is not a stable situation. If you have of, unsurprisingly, a lot of them are ending up in hospital companies that are looking to drive out local competition emergency rooms because they’re not very well protected in and they have not yet found a business model that is sustain- the midst of all the trafc with these big, huge automobiles, 220 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 where thousands of pounds are coming at you and you’re on and Lyf cars. But you have to look at the entire ecosystem, a little, tiny scooter. and you want to limit the total number of taxi-type vehicles None of these pivots have signifcantly changed the bot- you have on your streets. Uber and Lyf could fll part of that tom line of these companies. Tey are still losing billions quota. Traditional taxis could also fll part of that. of dollars, and no one can fgure out how they’re going to Rule 2, no subsidizing rides. You should tell Uber and change this formula, how they’re going to make it better in Lyf: “You need to charge the full cost of your ride.” Because the future. And Uber and Lyf have not announced any plans if they don’t do that, they’re going to be undermining your that have convinced anyone that they have a sense of how existing transportation grid, including public transportation. to turn this around. So by bringing them in with their sub- You should not let these companies engage in the predatory sidized rides, undermining your existing transportation, you pricing practices they have used in city afer city. Instead, tell are potentially bringing in companies that could be rather them: “You need to charge at least the break-even price for unstable in terms of having a stable, reliable transportation your rides.” grid. Tree, they should have to follow all existing taxi laws. I [11:45 a.m.] mean, again, this is just another type of taxi. Don’t overcom- Tese companies also, especially Uber, have been involved plicate it. If you have existing taxi rules and you think they’re in numerous scandals, including ways of using the techno- good rules — including on background checks, auto insur- logy to undermine law enforcement in enforcement of the ance and all these sorts of things — Uber and Lyf should rules — an infamous scandal called Greyball. have to follow the same rules. If for some reason your rules Te new CEO of Uber seems to have changed the culture are not adequate and they are somehow hampering compet- a little bit. We’re not hearing nearly as many scandals as there ition or they’re leading to too few cars on the road, then you used to be, so that is certainly a positive. But it’s still some- should look at changing the rules for all of the types of taxi- thing to keep in mind — that this company, not that long type vehicles on the street. ago, was wracked in scandal afer scandal. Having one set of rules for traditional taxis and another In short, I understand that consumers want another trans- set of rules for ride-renting makes absolutely no sense. It portation option. It’s totally understandable. But I think you hasn’t worked in city afer city in the United States, and now have to ask yourselves if this is the best way, given that it’s just more and more cities here are looking to harmonize these another type of taxi. Other options include just increasing rules and make sure that everyone is playing by the same the number of taxis that you already have and you already rules. have rules around. If the rules around existing taxis are Four, you should demand that these companies share their somehow inadequate or there are not enough of them, you data. Not only data about how many drivers they have on the can change those. It’s really something to consider. streets at any one time but also…. Part of what undermines Uber and Lyf bring the gloss of being hip and modern the bargaining power of Uber and Lyf drivers is that they are and techno, with their apps and all these kinds of things, but part of what’s called a distributed workforce. Tey don’t work taxi companies in San Francisco now have their apps too. in any particular place. Tey don’t report in any particular Te reality is that it’s really been a far diferent experience place. It’s really hard for them to come together and organize in city afer city. Te app — sure, it’s cool. You can watch the together for better wages and working conditions and these car as it comes towards you. But I’ll tell you what. Te reason sorts of things. why that app is cool is because the car shows up so quickly. [11:50 a.m.] If that car was taking 30 minutes to get there, the app would If these companies must provide the data to the B.C. gov- just be another source of frustration you could see. “My god, ernment or to some third-party watchdog type of organiz- the car is still stuck down on Market Street. How long is this ation that you establish and oversee, then this data can be thing going to take to get here?” Te app is cool because the shared with existing ride-renting drivers so that they can car shows up, and the car shows up because they are fooding fnd each other and they can meet up at a Pizza Hut and sit your streets with many, many cars. Tat really is the bottom- around and discuss common problems that they’re experi- line, full picture of what you’re getting with these services. encing and fgure out ways to organize together if they need If you do decide that you want to allow these services to to. compete in your transportation grid, I have some recom- Sharing the data like this is going to be good going for- mendations for you — fve of them, in fact. ward in the digital economy because who controls data is One, you have to limit the number of Uber and Lyf cars extremely important. Tese companies don’t give up the data that you allow to operate at any one time. If you just let them unless you demand it, because they don’t want these drivers food the streets with cars, you’re going to have all the prob- to fnd each other. Tey want them to be a distributed work- lems that I have described — environmental, labour, etc., force that cannot organize and try to get better wages and undermining your public transportation. If you limit the working conditions. number of cars to a reasonable amount…. Again, as I said, Five, related to the previous point, you must insist that you can do this by either having an increase in the num- these companies treat their drivers fairly. Having drivers ber of existing taxis or by allowing a certain number of Uber who are making less than the minimum wage afer you sub- Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 221 tract expenses is not going to be good for your local eco- out.” Secondly, they said: “Okay, you passed the law. We’re nomy. New York City recently passed a law mandating that going to….” Tey spent $10 million to gather signatures on these drivers must make a minimum wage afer their driver a voter initiative to overturn the law and just put the city expenses. in play for almost a year in fghting this law and mobilizing As I said, the studies have found that these drivers are against it and vilifying the city council. Tey really play hard- making very low wages, and a lot of them don’t even know it. ball when it comes to this kind of thing. A lot of people say to me: “Oh, I talk to my Uber driver, and Te voters of Austin actually voted down the Uber and the Uber driver says, ‘I like it. I like the fexibility. I’m mak- Lyf voter initiative. Even though they love ride-renting ing decent money.’” I usually say to those people: “Ask your there, they still said: “We want better background checks.” driver how they like it six months from now, or a year from At that point, Uber and Lyf had to withdraw, because they now.” threatened to withdraw. So with their tails between their Uber’s own numbers show that 50 percent of their drivers legs, they did withdraw from Austin. Tey waited about a leave the platform afer working for a year because they dis- year and then came back into Austin. Tey’re now back cover: “I’m not making as much money as I thought. I’m there. being treated horribly by this company. Tere’s no way for [11:55 a.m.] me to even talk to them about how to do things better or Tese are the types of company that you’re inviting into make it better for me.” On and on and on. your city. You have to recognize that and put the right rules So they leave afer a year on the platform. You have to ask around them and be ready to fght to keep those rules. yourself: if they have a turnover rate of 50 percent of their New York City, I think, is trying to do some good things. driver force afer a year, how good a job is this, really? Tat’s Austin, Texas, I’ve mentioned. San Francisco…. We’d like to the type of job you’re creating by bringing these companies do more of these sorts of things, but the big mistake we made in. in California is that we actually passed the regulations at the I see I’ve reached the end of my time. Tat’s pretty much state level and tied the hands of local governments to be able all I wanted to say to you. I’d be happy to answer questions. to put in place their own laws and regulations. I don’t recom- mend that at all. B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much, Steven. I want to If you do that at the B.C. level, at the provincial level, make sure that people have an opportunity to ask questions, you want to at least allow local governments to also add on. particularly around the four areas that this committee is able So you create a foor at the provincial level, but you want to deliberate around. to allow local governments to add on to that if they wish, because what you’ll discover is that the needs of a big city R. Kahlon: Tank you very much for your presentation. like Vancouver are going to be much diferent than the needs We kind of get focused on just North America and how of a smaller town or even a smaller city. Mostly, these afect things are done in North America. We forget that this is places that are…. You know, you have a lot of tourists, and a challenge throughout the world. We are fortunate in the they want to use ride-renting and these sorts of things. sense that we can take the learnings from other areas and In the smaller towns and cities, it’s not so much of an issue. ensure that they’re in place so that we don’t make the same So you want to have the fexibility in your regulation to allow mistakes others are. Vancouver to have the laws that will ft for Vancouver and My question to you would be…. Perhaps no jurisdiction not ft for some place in upper B.C., where you have smaller, has gotten it right. I don’t think any jurisdiction has gotten it rural communities, or somewhere else. right yet. But can you point us to directions and examples of where things are better than not? B. Ma (Chair): All right. Any other questions from com- mittee members? S. Hill: I think New York City has certainly taken some steps recently to try and rein in some of the worst of the ride- S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Yes, just one question. renting practices — as I said, implementing minimum wage. You’ve suggested, Mr. Hill, a lot of things around regulat- Tey also passed a law to try and cut back on congestion. ing this and regulating that for the purposes of congestion, of Unfortunately, the ride-renting companies, Uber and Lyf, driver wages, of things we think we might be seeing or might have sued these laws every time any city tries to do it. see. But then you talk about the need for cities to potentially Tis is the other thing that you’re going to run into with have the rights to add on to the regulation to suit their needs. these companies: litigation if you try to put regulations and Could they, then, opt out of that same regulation? What rules around them. Tese are deep-pocketed companies. we certainly can see happening here in B.C. is that the needs Tey have lots of lawyers, and they most likely will sue you. and what might work or not work in Vancouver might be Tey’ll threaten to pull out. very diferent from what might work or would work in a In Austin, Texas, what they did when Austin passed a small town in British Columbia that currently doesn’t have simple law just saying, “Look, we want better background any taxi-type service, where the ability of some kind of ride- checks….” First, they said: “If you do that, we’re going to pull share to operate would actually add great value to a com- 222 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

munity and not have any of the negative implications of con- a steady turnover of drivers and people in a down economy gestion, etc. Yet they are unlikely to start up if there’s great that need a fexible employment situation. regulation. Tat’s why they don’t have taxis. So how would I can’t answer the specifcs of your question. You have to you balance that? decide for yourself. But just recognize the types of compan- ies you’re inviting in. I guess that’s what I would I say. S. Hill: I would balance that by having a provincial law that creates a foor and then allow other cities to add on to B. Ma (Chair): Any other questions from committee that as they see ft. So in a smaller town, you may not need to members? All right. have a law that is concerned about congestion, but you cer- Tank you so much, Mr. Hill. We really do appreciate you tainly will want to have something that makes sure that the taking the time again to call here. Can you tell me where you wages are adequate. I mean, why create low-wage jobs where are calling from again? Was it Washington, you said? the drivers themselves aren’t even clear on how much they’re making? S. Hill: No, I’m in San Francisco.

S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Okay. Let me stop you there, B. Ma (Chair): Oh, you’re calling from San Francisco. because it…. I’ll clarify. Tank you so much, Mr. Hill. We really appreciate it. In a small community, for example, right now, we don’t have an opportunity for someone to pay someone to give S. Hill: It’s my pleasure. Good luck to you there. them a ride somewhere. Regardless of whether that person who would give them a ride somewhere is willing to do that B. Ma (Chair): All right. According to my schedule, the and would like to do that, there’s no legal way for them to next presentation doesn’t begin until 1 p.m., so that’s one do that at this moment in time. Te availability of some kind hour. We will enter into recess and reconvene at 1 p.m. of platform — like Uber, Lyf or something made in B.C. — could give them that opportunity. Tey would be doing that, Te committee recessed from 12:01 p.m. to 1:02 p.m. knowing they’re doing this once, and the amount of money is going to be small, but they’re doing it because it’s a service [B. Ma in the chair.] to their community and they’re already going that way. I mean, I think we have to put some onus on the individu- B. Ma (Chair): We have with us now Mr. Clark Lim, who als to take ownership of their own fnancial choices and their will be our next presenter. own ability to determine whether or not it is worthwhile for Mr. Lim, you will be given 25 minutes to present, unin- them. I don’t think, in these cases — in small towns, for terrupted. Tat will be followed by 20 minutes of questions example — anybody is going to be looking at it as a job or from committee members. If you end your presentation even as a wage subsidy, but they might look at it as a gas sub- early, we’ll simply roll the remaining presentation time into sidy. question time. We also ask that comments and the present- ation, as you know, be focused on the four questions before S. Hill: Are you saying that there are no taxis at all in these the committee now. communities, that the laws don’t even allow taxis to exist? Do you have any questions for us, Mr. Lim?

S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): No. Te law would allow a C. Lim: No, that’s good. taxi to exist. Te economics wouldn’t allow for a taxi to exist. [12:00 p.m.] B. Ma (Chair): Tank you, again, for coming back to pres- ent. S. Hill: If the laws don’t allow for a taxi to exist, then I don’t see how bringing in Uber and Lyf is going to make that CLARK LIM better. C. Lim: Tank you for having me again. I appreciate the S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): No, no. opportunity to provide feedback into this very important issue and the regulations. S. Hill: I mean, you might get…. Sure, they can subsidize I have, I think, about ten slides here. I will be, actually, the rides for you. But these companies have a history of…. addressing three of the four questions. I feel that the third For example, when they frst started, they took 5 percent of one, regarding price and fare, is actually quite complex, and every fare, so the drivers made the rest of it. Now they take I think I’ll defer that one. Te other three I will refer to. about 30 percent of every fare. In terms of my approach in providing input, as my pro- Tey’re always trying to take it out of the pockets of the fession and my expertise, I will be providing a trafc engin- drivers in order to keep…. Even though they’re losing eering and transportation planning perspective and, really, money, they lose less money because they’re relying on just a frst-principles approach. With all of these changes going Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 223 on, it’s very confusing. So having some sort of bedrock, from dynamic in the sense that you can have boundaries for dif- fundamentals, I think, is good. I’ll start from there and ferent times of day, for diferent people and, maybe, licences provide my reasoning as to why I’m suggesting any recom- or whatnot. It’s quite fexible. I think that when you look at mendations. boundaries, you want to consider all of the new options that I like the new term of TNS, transportation network ser- you have in front of you with these new technologies. vices. I think that bodes well. It’s not just a corporate In terms of recommendations on the frst question, I approach. It’s also a service that could be non-proft or gov- would suggest adopting a transition plan and possibly “living ernment. From my perspective, when I’m answering these, boundaries,” kind of a work in progress that can be shaped I’m including taxis with modern dispatch systems, app- to accommodate. As you learn about these new TNS innov- based ride-hailing as well as, eventually, the evolution of ations, I think, to hard code it may be to your detriment. So some form of transit, possibly. Tat’s sort of the way I’ve keep it fexible, and let the service providers be aware that looked at trying to respond to these. you are experimenting still. Investigate, eventually, a bound- [1:05 p.m.] aryless system to maximize the potential of this technology. I also take a modally agnostic approach, in that it’s object- Finally, require some sort of appropriate, granular raw data ive, and I don’t really have a bias to any modes. I’m more for from these providers, because it will be essential, actually, to ensuring that people can get where they want to go to and research and start to adjust these boundaries or to ultimately that goods get to places efciently. develop a boundaryless type of framework. On the terms of reference, I realized I had to take a certain Te second question is on balancing supply with demand. stance on how I addressed the terms of reference and the I’m going to start of by saying that from a system per- questions. I had to look at a broader policy perspective on spective, an efcient system is one in which the supply and the recommendations and the criteria suggestions. I’m really demand ft like a glove. You don’t have too much supply; you utilizing a triple-bottom-line approach. Tat’s where I’m don’t have too little. It’s just right. So there’s no waste in sup- coming from, in terms of how I’m moving forward with how ply, while you’re fully meeting all the needs of the people. I’ve put my thoughts together and prepared my responses. Practically, what we want, really, are these TNS vehicles to Te frst question, regarding the establishing of bound- be fully utilized with what we call minimum deadheading. aries. My understanding is that for transportation, the pur- In other words, we want to have the vehicle kilometres be pose of the boundaries is to manage the amount and the dis- equal to or less than the passenger kilometres consumed, tribution of supply. Tere’s also a certainty of territory and because you can have more than one passenger. What that markets for any providers or concessionaires, for calculation really means is having these drivers drive empty less, roam- of fees. Tere are many benefts and needs for boundaries. ing for passengers. Te less you can do that, the more ef- Tey’re really logical frameworks. Especially in the past, they cient the system is. were essential in a time when we didn’t have timely inform- [1:10 p.m.] ation of supply and demand. On the need for public convenience and necessity, the Now comes technology in the form of smartphones and probability of convenience and necessity is increased if the whatnot, and now we have high-resolution information in passenger demands are known ahead of time, those being real time. Not only do we know the status and location of the their origins — where they are — and where they want to go. supply — for example, the drivers; we also know the location If you know that about your customers, then you can start of the demand as well as where they want to go to. Tat’s, to shape your supply ahead of time. So if somebody wants actually, a huge game changer. Having all this information to leave, maybe, two hours from now and they want to go come in, able to be archived and used not only for historic- downtown or to Richmond, you can adjust your supply to al purposes in comparing but also to predict demand is what match that. Tis is where we get into AI and prediction sys- really gives the ability to efciently shape the supply. tems. Tis is key. Prediction is golden, and this is what will Finally, the fexibility in this kind of system allows you help to make the system very efcient. to sort of play with the rules and set new rules. Because of Tirdly, in terms of providing supply, we have to be careful that, I really believe that the approach to still using boundar- not to oversupply. You might have to curb supply where ies may limit the modern TNS systems and, therefore, their there are other sustainable alternatives or congestion. efcacy. Really, we need to eventually go to a boundary- Speaking to those points — I think I spoke last time — we less approach or system. Having said that, I appreciate the have to be careful. Tere’s this relationship between the users current status quo and where we’re at, and you can’t just of ride-hailing as well as transit, and you may end up canni- overnight turn the switch. We still probably will need some balizing and shifing people from a sustainable mode to this sort of boundaries to support legacy administrative purposes other mode which may or may not be sustainable. However, during a transition period. Te transition period is really the in places such as rural, transit-starved areas where transit most challenging, I’d say. isn’t very well- and cost-efectively provided, TNS will be, One approach is to use what we call geofences. Tey’re lit- actually, a boon. It will be a social beneft, because there are erally the boundaries programmed into all the devices and a lot of people who may not have the means to get around. systems. Tey mimic the static boundaries, but they’re Tey can’t drive. Tis would be, really, their only alternative. 224 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

If you were to look at the demand, and you’ll see it’s going censed, driving around, wasting gas and adding congestion to be in many places that are congested, to start to throw — oversupply for the demand. You don’t want that. So hav- vehicles there would also cause problems. What happens is ing some sort of a barrier, if you will, a licensing, will put a that when you throw just a few vehicles in an already satur- cap on that. ated environment, you’re going to have exponentially worse [1:15 p.m.] congestion and travel times. So we have to look at it and fg- In other cases, you may not have enough supply, and this ure out what’s going on there. Should we throw fuel into the may actually be a barrier, even though you have a certain fre? level of risk or a certain tolerance. It may be a factor to not An example would be downtown. It’s quite busy at peak provide enough drivers. In that case, I would recommend periods. You wouldn’t want to just throw all your supply not to degrade that standard of entry, to keep it the way it here. You might want to work with Transit to have them trig- is. I would suggest that the onus is on the TNS providers ger more transit services and have, maybe, people dropped to provide the incentives to get an adequate supply. I think of in less congested areas where, then, these TNS providers there’s where the market can play. can pick them up. So you’re not adding to the congestion. In terms of the criteria for what could be used, I’m not Tat begs the question of: how do we know what’s conges- really an expert on this — other than, in terms of trafc ted? Tis has been a problem for many urban areas for years. engineering, some of the safety side of things. But you can We did do a study back in 2003 on congestion. Most recently imagine age and experience are key criteria. You’d want we have ways to use big data, and this is an example of actu- somebody with enough experience. We do understand, ally measuring congestion in the peak period and quantify- through our accident data, that people who have about ten, ing it and having an index. Tis is, for example, in the great- 15, 20 years of experience are probably the safest drivers, in er Vancouver area. Another example, using the same system, terms of collision history. As you get older, or when you’re is in the Okanagan, where we can quantify congestion to tell very young, the accident rates tend to go up. So age and you where it is. Tese are systems that are used for various experience could be factored in. other purposes but can be used as a data set to feed into and Driving record, of course, and, possibly, police back- support the efciency of TNS providers. ground checks. Ten you have medical and physical con- In summary, for this question, the recommendations are ditions — to make sure that people are ft to drive. Tey to consider the synergies with other modes and, as I men- have, obviously, good eyesight or some corrective measures, tioned earlier, to require appropriate granular or raw data as well as reaction time. from these TNS providers to support further research and Possibly the condition of the vehicle. Tis is something, I optimize the supply and demand. Possibly, you can do the think, that may or may…. It could be done through the TNS, reverse. You can actually, maybe, infuence the demand. You that they ensure that. I don’t think we want to really bring in can suggest to people who want a ride now: “If you wait ten, the motor vehicle branch again. But again, the vehicle condi- 15 minutes, half an hour, it’ll be cheaper. Why go now? You’ll tion is something that should be considered. just be stuck in trafc anyway.” So there could be some two- Finally, there’s the basic skills and knowledge that drivers way communication and adjusting both supply and demand. are tested on, but I would suggest more enhanced or strategic Tere are other data sets you can use, such as congestion skills and knowledge. Tis includes an awareness of loca- information. Tere are travel surveys that we have across all tions. One of the things is that when you have taxi drivers, of…. Most of the B.C. communities have these travel sur- sometimes they don’t know where you’re wanting to go. veys, understanding where people are going to and from. You’re sort of both lost. It could cause, obviously, unsafe situ- Tere’s trafc volume data. Tere’s a lot of data that you ations. can combine and fuse together to build more intelligence to In terms of the current class 4 that ICBC has — which make the system more efcient. is a restricted class, a version of class 4 — it actually may Te third question I would like to address, the fourth be adequate, but maybe with some emphasis on what I call one on your list, is on the recommendations for the type of strategic skills and knowledge. What that really is…. Because licence class. To start of, I really believe this is…. I think these ride-hailing drivers may end up in situations that are we all agree. It’s understood that it’s a balance between safety unique to them, but it’s a common, reoccurring, unsafe situ- and participation. You want to have adequate people parti- ation, you would want to ensure that they’re skilled and cipating in these kinds of services to meet the needs. But the trained up in those situations. key there is defning a limit to risky drivers and not to allow One of the classic examples is the exiting and entering into them. What is that? Tat’s not my feld, but I think there has and out of trafc fow, where you have numerous incidents to be some sort of defnition. I’m sure ICBC would defne with motor vehicles, cyclists — especially if there’s a bike lane that. — and pedestrians. Because these manoeuvres are happen- Tis itself will afect the supply. On the one hand, it could ing way more frequently than a typical driver commuting to actually control excess supply. If there are too many people work, the frequency of this will be very high. wanting to drive…. Tere are many countries and cities in I’d like to just show you an example of…. How do you the world where there are too many taxis, licensed and unli- measure this? Because that’s one thing. How do you measure Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 225 the safety of these kinds of manoeuvres? Well, Dr. Tarek modes, what are the possibilities that you see for planning Sayed at UBC civil engineering has developed, I think for and safety? the last over ten years, an automated safety quantifcation system, using basically your basic camera. We use computer C. Lim: In fact, understanding how these apps work…. vision techniques, which will look at the whole scene and Tey’re obviously recording the location of both the pro- identify people — salient objects that are moving — and see vider, the driver, as well as the people who demand. Knowing if there are any conficts, in terms of collision and movement. just their time…. It’s a time stamp of their location, basically, Tis is an example he did in New York City, on Sixth and where they wanted to go. Ten there’s all that informa- Avenue. What results, then, is a heat map of safety. We can tion about how long it takes to get there and which routes actually quantify the degree of severity, when it comes to the they take. If some of those basic pieces of information — near misses, and where they’re located — and not only that, nothing to do with the person and any other privacy issues the type of people involved. So in this little area here, which — can be provided, you can see a very, very clear pattern of is quite signifcant — you can see it’s quite hot, just in terms where the activities are and where the demands are. From of the heat map — these are incidents mainly due to pedes- that, it’s quite powerful. trians and right-turning vehicles, which is actually common It could be a few simple, what I would call, variables or in many places, but you actually see that. information pieces. And it’s just provided at what we call a What you have here is a classic example of taxi conficts. big-data level. So it’s quite a large number of these. When We can see taxi conficts and quantify them. We can actually you combine that with, again, TransLink’s sort of picture of do economic analyses to tell you in terms of what improve- transit riders and where they’re switching and boarding, you ments could do to reduce these conficts. Ultimately, for combine with maybe…. Ten there are taxis — obviously, example, ICBC would incur them. So there are techniques they’re another part of it — as well as just the general travel that we can employ to quantify safety. I think that’s the good survey. What they do is they collect information on how news. people travel within the region and for what purpose, which We’re using, again, all of these advanced technologies that mode and what time they leave. are, on the one hand, causing a lot of these changes. We’re You combine all that, and you get a very good picture of using it for our purposes to improve that system. what’s going on in any region. Ten, again, I’ve mentioned [1:20 p.m.] these other data sets like congestion. Not only does it add, Te last slide here, my recommendations, then, to this but it also helps to validate some of the data. Tat’s one of the class of licence. I would suggest, at minimum, enhancing the issues. Sometimes we collect data, and you have another data existing class 4, the restricted, with an emphasis on strategic set which is contrary to what you get. So when you have all skills and knowledge in these unique situations ride-hailing of these data sets, you end up with a pretty good picture, and riders would be involved in — everything from, again, in and they are, hopefully, self-validating. out of trafc to understanding the diferent locations in the It’s really no diferent than having…. We all have eyes and region and jurisdictional rules. ears and mouths. We have fve senses. Te more data you Also, I would be remiss to not say: try to obtain more data have, the more senses you get. Our body is designed to cap- at a granular level and, if possible, kinematic data, because ture information and make sure things are the way they are, we know these phones can actually provide deceleration and there’s sort of confrmation from all the senses. Tat’s rates. Tose would actually help in terms of monitoring the kind of the approach. It’s, basically, as simple as that. safety of these systems. With that — I think I ended on time — I will open up for R. Singh: You have answered, I think, part of the question questions. that I had. You talked a lot about congestion and the supply. Would that be related to data, too, to fnd out which areas B. Ma (Chair): Absolutely. Tank you. You actually ended need the supply? And it shouldn’t increase the congestion. before your time was up. Are there any questions? C. Lim: Yes. I’m sort of guessing. Tere might be a supply of, let’s say, 10,000 of these drivers in any given hour, maybe R. Kahlon: I hate monopolizing, being frst every time. I’ll at the maximum point. Again, I’m sort of guessing based on try not to be. gross numbers, but we could have up to half a million cars on Tank you very much for your presentation. A consistent the road at any given time. So it’s a small drop in the bucket theme we’ve been hearing is access to data, and we hear it in a sense, comparably. But again, if they’re going to places again from you. You just touched on, at the end, some of where it’s very, very congested, they can add problems. the data that you think should be captured. Maybe you can Tis is where they will be providing information as to share with me what you think some of the potentials are. their travel times, and you could derive congestion based By having access to the data, having access to TransLink on how they’re travelling. Tey’re a smaller sample size. But data, as a province, as a body that holds data from diferent knowing what’s going on, and if you have the ability to…. You know, these TNS algorithms have the ability to deploy 226 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 supply to certain areas and to know that it’s congested potentially, for ride-share companies so that they can’t already. Again, it doesn’t help anyone. undercut the cost of transit, for example. [1:25 p.m.] Tese are the kinds of little things that can really help. C. Lim: Yeah, I think that makes sense. But again, in all Otherwise, you will get the situation like in other jurisdic- fairness, you’d have to see what…. Tey may not want to tions where they are seeing congestion grow. go that low too. I would imagine that to go that low would Te beauty of these systems is that we can monitor con- be detrimental to their business and their revenue model. gestion and see if it has gone up a blip because of the deploy- But I think that sounds reasonable, and I think that’s a good ment or the allowing of these TNS providers. Te data starting point, to have discussions with any TNS providers provides information not only to make real-time decisions of and have that discourse with TransLink. I think that’s a good efciency but that also will be used to monitor and provide idea. diagnostics so you can make improvements and ensure that I am, in particular, worried about that shif. Tere’s a lot things like equity and fairness are also at play. of investment in transit, and there has been. So as much as I’m modally agnostic, that’s investment. Tat’s my invest- S. Chandra Herbert: I think the data is really important. ment and my taxpayers’, so I do want to maximize invest- Tanks to Mr. Lim, I just read an interesting survey about ment. We can’t just shif willy-nilly, because fundamentally, University of California in Los Angeles where I think they we want to be completely open and fair. said there were about 11,000 trips — I think it was Uber I think there is a bit of responsibility to the decisions we and Lyf combined — that never actually lef the campus. It made in the past to sort of respect those. But there will be was picking up one person on one corner, driving them two the shif. We can’t deny. Innovation is coming. We can’t stop blocks to their class or whatever. Tey didn’t want to be in it, and not should we, I believe, to some degree. I think we the rain or whatever, and I guess transit was more expensive have to learn to adapt. Tat’s going to be the challenge — or not there at all. to have all these institutions adapt, including government as Of course, you increase pollution, but sure, it’s more avail- well. Te private sectors are much more nimble. able. Interesting issue. Now, of course, if you’ve got conges- Te worry is eventually privatization. Some people argue tion, it could be even worse. it is going in that direction. Tat could well be the case. I I wonder. You talked about boundaries and legacy bound- would hope that we can adapt our institutions, B.C. Transit aries. Some of those issues, I know, certainly impact taxis in being one. Another example: Ministry of Highways. So it’s a big way, given they’re very restricted to quite small bound- not just TransLink. Tere are a lot of diferent institutions. aries in some cases. Any thoughts on if we were to move Tis is why I think I said the previous time I was here that towards no boundaries for TNS companies, about moving we may need to review governance models. the same direction for taxis — around fairness, for example, [1:30 p.m.] ending deadheading, some of the things we’ve talked about? B.C. Transit, for example, is a classic example of a gov- Also, any thoughts on TransLink’s suggestion of a minim- ernance model that is modally siloed. If you had a B.C. Horse um price on trips in order to reduce competition or canni- and Carriage, then yeah, it would be pretty much gone. But balization of the transit system? it is going to happen at some point, especially in the rural areas. C. Lim: Yeah, the latter I haven’t, really, but on the frst Tese are concerns. I don’t have the full answers, but all I question, I guess, fundamentally, a taxi and a ride-hail are can say is that it seems like those things are coming down- the same. Tey’re from the same sort of genetic background. stream. It’s something for, I think, you decision-makers. It’s Obviously, their business models are slightly diferent, but a hard decision, but I would at least hope that you would see from that perspective, I think they can eventually go into a those things and take heart. boundaryless system. I believe they have the technology right now to do that. P. Milobar: Back to the data. It seems that a lot of com- I think it’s more the business model and the revenue model panies, not just TNSs — I’m thinking the hotel industry, a maybe…. Again, I’m not an expert on that. You’d have to talk whole wide range of service industries — protect that type of to experts in that area. But fundamentally, I think they’re the data pretty fercely, from occupancy rates to travel times for same, as far as I’m concerned. One just has more markings TNSs to all of that. on it. Te other one doesn’t. From that, I think they should It seems we already have a transportation network out be able to. I can’t see fundamentally why not. Tere would be there. We have TransLink running buses everywhere there more of a social or a business issue. are sitting in the trafc. Tey could be providing real-time You mentioned that TransLink wants to add additional reporting on congestion. We have taxi feets out there that fare…? could be providing real-time information right now. We don’t require them to, yet you turn on the TV and you get S. Chandra Herbert: Tey suggested a minimum fare, your morning road report, and you can tell by the green, red and yellow arrows how quickly the trafc is moving on the Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 227 freeways. Tere seems to already be congestion-tracking that Tere’s social value brought from them. So I think it’s in way. everyone’s best interest to provide information. Frankly, if I click on my Waze app, it will tell me the fastest route, based on real-time road conditions and what’s going B. Ma (Chair): Are there any other questions from com- on out there. In fact, whenever I’ve taken an Uber, a Lyf or a mittee members? If I was hearing some of the background taxi, a lot of drivers rely on that particular app to renavigate noise earlier, if I’m interpreting the background noise cor- themselves around, to get you from your start to your end- rectly, I believe there was a change recently to require taxi point in the fastest way possible. drivers and taxi companies to provide data to government — So why the need to try to make data collection to TNS whatever data they have — through the apps that do exist. providers part of the conditions when we don’t make it a Tat change is recent. Te data collection requirement was condition for any other transportation network that’s out also a recommendation that was produced as part of the frst there? report of the Crown Corporations Committee as well. Tank you for re-emphasizing that. Interjection. [1:35 p.m.] My question for you has to do around the management C. Lim: Yeah, you can interject if you know anything of of service supply in relation to consumer demand. It’s been the…. fairly consistent so far. We’ve heard from other presenters that it’s not ideal to simply allow every car that wants to B. Ma (Chair): Sorry. Did you want to comment? drive on the roads to do so. But there are varying ways that we can help manage that without necessarily using, for A Voice: No, that’s okay. instance, vehicle caps or limiting licensing numbers or so forth. Some of those examples were per-kilometre charges or C. Lim: I would say that fundamentally, it would be useful per-trip fees and particularly those dynamic ones that could — and a lost opportunity to not obtain some of that data, be adjusted according to time of day or location of pickup in especially if it is government-produced or if the taxi com- order to manage congestion. panies are willing to provide it somehow. Te thing is, if you Do you have any comments on any of those concepts that want to monitor taxis, they’re visible, so you can track them. may have been raised? You can count them on the roads. Te problem with ride- hailing is that they look just like anyone else driving to work, C. Lim: Yeah, that’s actually a very good and core ques- and you don’t know if they’re ride-hailing or not. Tey’re not tion. It touches on that fare revenue, which I wanted to avoid marked, so they’re almost invisible to our current ways of because it begs the question of equity fairness. How do you collecting information. optimize for society? Tere’s a utility approach. Tere’s sort I think it’s important to know how these new services are of a diferent policy approach when it comes to maybe social growing and being used, because I think the prediction is justice. Tere are so many things that you need to start with that they will be a signifcant part. Tey won’t be sort of half to…. I think it has to be done. a percent of all the trips, but they could be bigger than trans- Tere’s a lot of background work, which would actually it, even. With that, I would say, kind of signifcance, I think help in other areas, not just in this. Or mobility pricing — governments would be remiss if they didn’t collect the infor- the bigger version of this. But just overall society, what is mation to some degree. Obviously, it has to be fair. Tere equity, and how do you, as government, ensure equity, and are privacy laws and whatnot. But even if they were to be what does it look like? provided samples, there’s a lot you can do with just even a bit Fundamentally, I think any person who wants to go some- of data, using statistical methods and whatnot. where…. You think of any trip you want to make. Probably I think we just need to get a handle on how people are the best way, if you had a dream way to travel, would be just using these technologies. It’s important. I always argue that getting in a car, not having to worry, and being driven to we shouldn’t get too much data but just as much as needed. where you want to be driven — a limousine, basically. Tat’s Te question is: how much data? Tis is why I mentioned the ultimate. Tis form of transport gives you that. appropriate means and to what level of granularity. But it’s a Really, how many people want to transfer between buses discussion that has to be done with these TNCs. if it’s raining, for example, or be driving and stuck in trafc? I think there may be some room for negotiation. As you You can’t really do anything but keep your eyes on the road, build your regulations, maybe there can be negotiations as to and you had a stressful day…. To be driven is really the ulti- what constitutes a fair sort of data dump being sent to gov- mate goal, I think, for people to travel. Tis is why if you ernment — having all the right non-disclosures, privacy and were to ask how many people want to use this, I’d say every- whatnot sort of wrapped around that. Ultimately, it would one wants to use it. So the appetite is almost 100 percent. Te beneft them to some degree, because we want to make sure question is: is it good for everyone to use this, and should we that people are utilizing these systems and taking advantage. have this being the future? Autonomous vehicles may be that future. But for now, this 228 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 is kind of the way there. Again, I think, as I mentioned, unclear the data to protect people. It’s sort of like pictures there are these other investments that we have. From a fuel where you have people’s faces blurred out. Tat can be done, efciency and emissions perspective, I don’t agree that ride- so I don’t think that’s the issue. I think the question is: where hailing…. It’s just like an SOV. It’s not a car pool. It’s not ef- is that line? cient. Tere are two people, but it’s only one person needing I think researchers want the data as clear as possible, the ride. Te driver is a human algorithm. Tey’re not really whereas, obviously, the data providers, I guess for their com- travelling there. You can’t count them. petitive advantage, may not want to divulge that. Tere has I think there’s a limit in terms of emissions and efciency to be some sort of balance, and I think this is where it’s a from an environmental perspective. Tere are all these kinds three-way discussion, including with government. But yeah, of constraints at play. Once we have electric vehicles, it might I think we’re going to hear a lot of stories about that. change a bit, but then there’ll be more congestion. At the end of the day, data is the new commodity. Oil was We have to kind of look at it all. We have all these modes, a commodity when we had combustion engines. We’re mov- and we have to fnd the right balance and mix to what the ing into a new era of data being the new commodity, and optimum mode share would be, because as a society, we do all of these big companies that we’ve heard of — Google and have these mode share targets. Te city of Vancouver does; Facebook — are all based on data, the same as Uber. TransLink does. How does this ft in? I think the whole argument and a lot of the discussions I’ve been doing research for the last 15 years on trying to will be around data, and there will be a lot of legalese, a lot of include these into the classic mode share. It’s not easy. We regulations. Tere’ll be all sorts of things around it — tech- had to defne what it was. Tat was why I spoke the frst time nology, feasibility issues and whatnot — but it’ll be about the as to trying to defne this. data, I think. It tells you where we’re heading towards as a I think once we defne it and we let it in, then it’ll be a society, which is going to be very data-centric, which is really matter of understanding what the potential is. Pretty much, about your identity. Data represents your identity, who you we have to determine what degree, amount, of mode share is are and maybe your values. So it’s actually pretty profound. healthy for them to have, this new TNS mode. I don’t have the answer for that. Tat’s going to be something, I think, J. Johal: Just out of curiosity…. You said you create your that ought to be of interest and will have to happen, not just own apps. I’m just curious. What do you look for? Is it just here but around the world. per trip, where you’re going? I’m curious about what kind of data, the specifc data that you’re looking for. B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. Any…? Yes? C. Lim: When I build my apps, I collect things like…. Every second I can get the time-stamp and the position. So J. Johal: Can I ask just one question? I have people…. For example, I showed you the congestion data. It was nice to have that data there. But do we know it’s B. Ma (Chair): Absolutely. accurate? It has to be professional-grade, and if that’s the case, we J. Johal: Just to my colleague Mr. Milobar’s question in have to validate it and do some sort of statistical testing. So regards to data collection, do you have, broadly speaking, we have people ground-truth, have high-precision data. We any understanding of how data collection has worked in the collected actual x, y positions along that, and we compared United States? I think it was Seattle last year where Uber their travels through the whole region to what we were get- and Lyf were compelled to share some data, but I think ting in this data that we got through crowdsourcing. It was they ended up suing because it became a bit too granular. I very, very high, what we call R-squared. It was very, very think it was by zip code, and they didn’t want the zip codes good, so we knew then that it was professional-grade and we released. Do you foresee any challenges for us? can rely on it. I think the broad issue about data collection is wonderful: Te kinds of apps that we create are very precise in that more data, better decisions. Do you see any challenges for us sense. Tey’re actually not that hard to do. It used to be very in that way? difcult. In 2003, we spent almost, maybe, a quarter million collecting data, using GPS to develop a congestion map in C. Lim: Yeah. A lot of the data will be collected by these the region. Now we can do it much, much cheaper, and the devices that we all have in our pockets. It’s very accurate. I devices are just amazing. We have these devices that are very actually make apps to collect data on travel for research pur- complicated, and we’re using them for simple things like col- poses, for example, and it’s very precise. Ten it’s a question lecting positioning. So it’s not a problem of: are they accurate of: how precise do we want it, and do we need it? enough? Tey’re overly accurate, I’d say — too accurate. [1:40 p.m.] Once I have that data, I can then round the numbers, if J. Johal: Tank you so much. you will, and just say it’s in this one-mile area or this zip code or this city. We can reduce down and make kind of fuzzy or Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 229

B. Ma (Chair): I was going to say that we use our phones B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much for coming out. Please for looking at cat photos. proceed.

S. Chandra Herbert: Speak for yourself. B.C. FEDERATION OF LABOUR

B. Ma (Chair): I have a lot of cat photos on my phone. L. Cronk: Tank you for the opportunity to address this I also understand that Google…. Researchers ofen part- committee. I will stick to one of the four. I’ll get to it in a ner with Google for trip data and so forth at a very granular couple of minutes. Tere’s a bit of a brief preamble. While I level as well. Is that right? would love to just speak to you, I made sure I have this writ- ten and prepared so I don’t lose any of the points I’d like to C. Lim: Yes. Defnitely. Tere are a lot of data providers, make. It might be more interesting the other way, but it’ll be yes. Tat’s the thing now. Tere’s so much of it. We went from thorough. a data drought to…. Now we’re drowning in data, just lit- Again, thank you for the opportunity. As president of the erally within a few years. It wasn’t gradual. Now, as a trafc B.C. Federation of Labour, I speak on behalf of afliates with engineer, I’m actually working more on things like servers 500,000 members that they represent in every aspect of B.C.’s and data storage and things like that, because it’s just…. It’s economy. Te goals of the B.C. Fed are best exemplifed by quite a lot, but it’s great, because it’s like a dream come true its slogan: what we desire for ourselves, we wish for all. Tat for people like me, I guess, who really like to play with data. means that in addition to advocating for the rights of union- But then, afer that, it’s about taking the data and making ized workers, we seek to improve working conditions for all meaning out of it. British Columbians whether they are in a union or not. Te analytics are important. Tat’s where a lot of this Troughout this consultation process, I’m sure you’ve will…. Te discussions will be around the AI and analytics heard extensively about the needs of the companies who and how we convert that data into nuggets of information are interested in profting, which makes sense, through the and, ultimately, into decisions that you’ll make — and make implementation of ride-hailing. You’ve also undoubtedly decisions on investments in people’s lives. It’s all part of the heard from consumers who are interested in additional same vertical. afordable transportation options. We are here today to talk to you about our area of expert- B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. ise: the needs of the working people. We focused our com- Any other questions from committee members? ments on the third question in your request for feedback Mr. Lim, really appreciate you coming down to speak with — the criteria that must be considered when establishing a us again. I hope you have a wonderful day. price and fare regime. In setting a price and fare regime, you must consider the working conditions of the drivers who will C. Lim: Tank you for having me, and all the best on the be performing this work. study. Instead of creating precarious, low-paying work, the goal of expanding passenger transportation services must include B. Ma (Chair): Our next presenters are here, I believe — protecting existing good-paying jobs and creating new stable Laird Cronk and Denise Mofatt from the B.C. Federation employment — jobs that pay well, provide benefts, have of Labour. Fortunately, we are also completely caught up on some security to allow workers to support themselves and time. their families. If you don’t have a presentation to load or so forth, just Unfortunately, in most markets where ride-hailing ser- take a seat, and we’ll begin as soon as you’re ready. vices have been adopted, this hasn’t always been the case. [1:45 p.m.] Tough consumers have enjoyed additional transportation You may or may not have seen previous presentations. options and corporations have earned substantial profts, You will have 25 minutes to present uninterrupted. Follow- workers have struggled to earn the minimum wage. ing that, there will be 20 minutes for questions. Te time that To reverse this trend, British Columbia has an opportun- you don’t use for your presentation, we’ll just roll into the ity right now to get ride-hailing right. Tis can be easily questions. achieved by enforcing existing laws, supporting fairness and We also ask that you really focus on the four questions balance in the employment relationship and providing sup- that we’re tasked with reviewing, which are around boundar- port to workers who are impacted by changing regulations. ies, supply, fare and pricing regimes and driver licensing. As I’m going to start by talking about our existing employ- much as possible, tie it into those four areas. ment standards. As a former employment standards ofcer, Do you have any questions for us before we begin? this is personal to me as well. To ensure that the drivers in this system have decent wages and working conditions, all L. Cronk: I don’t, no. All good. we need to do is apply our existing employment standards laws. Ride-hailing drivers are employees, not independent con- 230 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 tractors. Te current defnition of “employee” contained in While there are existing laws in place, we encourage the the Employment Standards Act is broad and can and must be Workers Compensation Board, through this committee, to applied to these workers. Tese drivers are not independent review the regulations to ensure that they address industry- contractors, as they lack control over many aspects of their specifc workplace hazards so that workers are not injured work. Te ride-hailing company and its mobile application or killed on the job. Additionally, board ofcers must con- exerts signifcant control over the workforce. duct regular inspections to ensure the standards are being Ride-hailing companies are not technology companies followed, and employers who fail to follow the rules should alone who lease access to an app. Tey’re transportation be held to account. Finally, should an injury occur, workers companies that provide a service to the public through their must have access to full and fair compensation. employees. For example, the company determines how work In every workplace, there must be fairness and balance is ofered and accepted. Tey set fares. Tey collect pay- between workers and employers. Tis is best achieved when ments. Tey prescribe routes and take profts from the workers join together to negotiate terms and conditions of drivers’ work. Tey impose a driver-performance rating sys- employment. Te Supreme Court of Canada has upheld tem, set conduct standards and terminate those who do not workers’ rights to organize. Drivers in the passenger trans- meet those standards. Companies even control the number portation industry must also have access to this right. Ride- of drivers who can compete for the work, in ofen cases. hailing companies do not always have a track record of good We cannot rely on ride-hailing companies alone to look labour relations. Workers need a level playing feld and more out for the interests of workers. Tey have a record of over- clout to deal with powerful multinational companies. Tis saturating the market with drivers, driving down fares and requires a close examination and improvement of the B.C. consequently impacting drivers’ take-home pay. By requir- labour relations code. ing minimum hourly wages, companies will be disincentiv- In its recent report, the Section 3 review panel, tasked with ized from fooding the driver pool at the expense of the making recommendations on the code, highlighted changes workers and their dependents. to the workplace and the growth of precarious work. Under Tese drivers are employees as we defne them under the current laws, drivers in ride-hailing and workers in other existing law in B.C., and as employees protected by the on-demand or gig industries have little chance of exercising Employment Standards Act, drivers are entitled to receive at their Charter organizing rights. least the minimum wage, overtime pay, vacation pay, meal Te panel suggested that the Minister of Labour appoint breaks and access to other employment protections. a single-issue commission on sectoral and multi-employer [1:50 p.m.] certifcation. A minority recommendation also advocated In other jurisdictions, the question of employment status for a return to card-check certifcation. Tese changes to is already being tested. For example, in December in the existing labour laws would provide more opportunity for gig United Kingdom, the Court of Appeal supported a tribunal economy workers, like in ride-hailing, to organize into uni- ruling that found drivers to be Uber employees and, as such, ons and correct the power imbalance that exists in many entitled to minimum wages, paid holidays and other protec- workplaces. We therefore call for a return to that card-check tions. Tese protections are the minimum necessary stand- certifcation and support the establishment of a commission ards for a good job. on sectoral and multi-employer certifcation. Flowing from this employment status, ride-hailing com- Despite the record of many ride-hailing companies, some panies must make statutory deductions from drivers so that Canadian companies are looking at diferent operating mod- workers have access to employment insurance and the els. Unlike multinational ride-sharing companies, whose Canada Pension Plan. Tese are important supports for drivers have ofen reported long hours and low hourly earn- workers, and employers must pay their fair share. ings, some companies understand and have tried to enter Another law that must be enforced is the Workers Com- into the value of prioritizing the work conditions of their pensation Act and the occupational health and safety regula- drivers. Afer all, happy workers result in happy ride-sharing tions. Te health and safety of workers and their passengers customers. is essential to a successful industry in ride-hailing. Under For example, one Canadian company, TappCar, which existing laws, employers must register, pay WCB premiums operates in Alberta and Manitoba, has a unionized work- and follow the act and its regulations. Tis equally applies to force. TappCar drivers have negotiated better working con- ride-hailing companies. ditions, like health and dental benefts, and receive a higher Ride-hailing companies must ensure rigorous health and percentage of the fares. Te emergence of TappCar simply safety standards, functioning health and safety committees demonstrates that a more balanced approach to worker and training for workers and regular inspections to make rights is possible and can form the foundation of a successful sure the rules are being followed. In addition to ensuring business model in ride-hailing. the drivers have sufcient training to manage on-road con- In the ride-hailing industry, predatory lending has also ditions, training and worker safety programs must also be thrown of the balance between workers and employers. developed and implemented for areas such as working alone, Some ride-hailing companies have played the dual role of violence prevention and bullying and harassment. lender and employer by being the fnancier of cars for their Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 231 drivers through sub-prime loans. Higher rates, early termin- B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. ation penalties and payback schemes that encourage drivers Any questions from committee members? to work long hours to reduce their loan can prey on and exploit workers who are desperate to make ends meet. Reg- R. Kahlon: I do have a question. I didn’t want to be frst ulations must be established to protect workers from predat- again. I miss , because he would always take ory lending by their employers, as playing this dual role cre- turns with me. But I’ll go frst. ates an inappropriate level of dependency for the ride-hail- Tank you for your presentation. I think Ontario’s ing worker and a disproportionate amount of power for the Supreme Court is now looking at a case regarding one of the employer. TNS companies on the question of whether they’re employ- Finally, as a result of the implementation of ride-hailing, ees or contractors. I know we had this discussion last round workers in our existing passenger transportation sector may as well about this. Maybe you can go through…. You gave well be impacted. Every efort should be made to minimize some points on why they’re not contractors, why they should the impact on these existing workers. Should there be an be considered as employees. Maybe you can just touch on impact, the B.C. Fed recommends that a meaningful and fair those again. transition program be established to assist workers. We have had some presenters come to us and say there [1:55 p.m.] should be a minimum wage set so that if a driver drives, Tousands of taxi drivers have taken on signifcant debt to they are guaranteed to make that wage — just maybe some pay for licences. Depending on how this legislation is imple- thoughts on that. mented, those licences may well plunge in value. A trans- ition program should include access to training and income L. Cronk: Tere are several cases throughout the States. supports. Te program should be supported by government, I won’t quote individual cases. Te landscape is shifing and ride-hailing companies should contribute their fair almost weekly on this. Tere have been rulings of employ- share. ee…. Tere have been rulings in some states, and in prov- As our government looks to develop a new industry in inces, not. But the Federation of Labour believes that the our province — and we get one opportunity to start — it’s current employment standards description is sufcient to incumbent on them to ensure it is built on good jobs. Tere cover these folks as employees. is already much too much exploitation of workers in our My employment standards days, I admit, are a little rusty. province. Corporate profts and consumer demands should It was a number of decades ago, as a matter of fact. But there not outweigh the basic right of every worker to fair pay and is a four-pronged approach used for whether somebody is an safe and decent working conditions. employee or not. When you look at the ride-hailing world Our recommendations to this panel. Classify ride-hailing that exists, for the most part, today, they have very little con- drivers as employees under the existing defnition of the trol. Employment Standards Act. Ensure that ride-hailing com- Tey may appear to be an independent contractor, to panies and their drivers are contributing to employment some. It must be them that does the work, not somebody insurance and Canada Pension Plan. Drivers should also be they hire. Tey don’t have hiring or fring rights. Tey don’t able to access these benefts. control what the rate is. Te company controls the rate. Tey Make sure the ride-hailing companies pay workers com- don’t control their proft margin. Tey are ofen scripted in pensation premiums for all their employees, including how they deal with the folks who ride in their vehicles. And drivers, and ensure that companies have robust health and if they are not rated properly…. We’ve anecdotally heard of safety programs. Review health and safety regulations to cases where the ride cost is taken away from them. make sure they provide appropriate protection for drivers Tere is clear evidence out there, and I would say it leads and develop new regulations as required. to many of these cases. We had a prominent one. I’ve lost Establish a commission on sectoral bargaining to ensure the state that it was in. It happened in 2017, where again, that workers in on-demand industries such as ride-hailing they were considered to be employees. Tere’s enough con- have access to their Charter right to organize. Amend the trol from the…. Tey’re ofen branded as how they’re an app B.C. labour relations code to return to card-check certifca- and nothing more. Far from that. Tere is much control over tion. the driver. Regulate vehicle leasing and loan programs so that ride- hailing companies cannot exploit their workers through R. Kahlon: And the wage piece. Some have suggested that predatory lending schemes. And fnally, minimize the we should set a minimum wage or some living wage or what- impact on existing workers in the passenger transportation ever to drivers. Have you put any thought into that? industry. Where this is not possible, establish a plan to provide income support and to transition into other employ- L. Cronk: Our view is that once covered by the Employ- ment. Ensure that ride-hailing companies participate in their ment Standards Act as an employee, the minimum wage fair share of that. piece would fall into line. I mean, there could be discussion, 232 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

I’m sure, around government setting the fare and the per- TNS or whatever can’t pick up a street fare. More or less, centage. that’s what we’ve been discussing or what we had been dis- [2:00 p.m.] cussing and what was proposed in the last go-round. So I’m Tat’s something else to consider. First and foremost, we curious as to you presenting that piece here but not refer- would make the argument that they are employees. And then encing at all the situation for the thousands of drivers who the minimum wage. All of the regulatory schemes, the act don’t own the vehicle that they drive on a daily basis and and the regulations, are already in place to cover that. them not being employees and not having unionized….

R. Singh: Tank you so much. In the last round, we dis- L. Cronk: I can simply say this. I don’t mean to repeat, cussed this in great detail — with the advent of ride-hailing, but two things. I wouldn’t do the disservice to the panel of more precarious part-time jobs. I would be interested…. If talking about the taxi industry like I had knowledge that I ride-hailing comes and if there’s a cap on the supply, do you don’t have of it. I’ll allow them to make their own position on think that will reduce that part of it, the precarity of it? Or that. Because I don’t know that, I can’t make the comparison would it be benefcial for the workers if there’s a cap, like the myself. I haven’t done a deep dive into the taxi industry and number of cabs coming onto the street? that long-established system. In this system — I know this from my employment stand- L. Cronk: I’m not sure what you mean by the gaps on the ards days; this is law — you apply the act to the potential street. employees on the face of it. You don’t compare it to other industries to decide if they’re employees or not. On the face R. Singh: No, cabs. Rather than unlimited, we put a limit of the test in the act and the language in the act, they should on it. be employees.

L. Cronk: Oh, I see. It could play a role. I don’t think that it S. Chandra Herbert: Tank you, Mr. Cronk. President prejudices whether or not they’re employees. I mean, they’re Cronk, I should say. I think last time, former president Lan- employees if they meet the defnition in the act. Could that zinger was here, and this issue actually did come up. I’m jog- play a role outside of that? Absolutely. I think yes. ging my memory a bit, but my understanding at the time Sorry. I have construction hearing. was the B.C. Federation of Labour’s position was that within the taxi industry, if somebody was working in a similar kind S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): I’m curious about your posi- of way, where they didn’t really have too much control over tion that they should be classifed as employees. How do you their hours, the Fed believe that they, too, should be classi- see that as diferent from the taxi drivers who are renting a fed as employees. car for the day but they don’t own the car? How is that difer- I understand there was a recent Labour Relations Board ent? Tey’re driving for a taxi company with a fare regime set ruling around taxis and employees or people who rent cars, in place. Tey have no control over it. Tey have no control depending on your point of view. I believe they said that they over how they pick up passengers. How is it diferent? Can are employees. I’m not an expert, but I guess, to understand you explain that to me? it better, is it…? I understand that in some of these apps, if you don’t check in a certain number of times in a month, you L. Cronk: I don’t profess to sit before you as an expert can be fred, although you’re also, supposedly, an independ- on the taxi industry. I’m sure you’ll hear from many in the ent contractor. taxi industry on that front. What I can tell you is the distinct Is that the kind of thing that you’re talking about, about employment standards tests that are applied when you look lack of control of your own agency, I guess? at the control through the ride-hailing companies logically result in these folks being employees. L. Cronk: Yes. Te act looks at more than one component. I wouldn’t compare it to the taxi industry. I would look at Tey’ll look at control in the workplace. Tey’ll look at it per the Employment Standards Act and these employees. whether or not it is you, or you can have somebody else Tat’s the true test. do the work for you. Do you have that control, or does the employer, potentially, say it must be you? S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Well, then, have you looked [2:05 p.m.] at that for taxi drivers in the past? Tey’ll look at the equipment — whether it’s supplied or whether it isn’t. Tat’s another component of it. Tey’ll look L. Cronk: No, I have not. I’m here to talk about the ride- at whether you have hiring or fring rates if there are oth- hailing piece. er folks. Tey’ll look at pieces where it may look like you’re acting like an employer, but you’re acting as an employer on S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): I understand that, but we’re behalf of the employer. talking about individuals who are going to act in almost, For example, if you’re collecting fares, you’re collecting essentially, the same way, the only diference being that a them on behalf of the ride-hailing company. You’re not col- Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 233 lecting them as a contractor, because you’re passing that sneezed at. But when you’re talking about facing unemploy- money back to them, and then they make decisions on that. ment, $50,000 in Vancouver will get you about a planter at Tey’re setting the rates. Tey’re setting your wages. Tey the end of a driveway. are essentially…. When you get the route, you have to follow I think we need to keep in perspective…. Again, I don’t the route. Tey’re setting your prescribed activity when mean to make light of that money. Tat’s important. But you’re actively doing it. really, a government looking at a major change to an You have to look at these things in an overall piece. In industry that could result in a lot of disruption for existing terms of your original comment on taxis and whether workers should, I think, look beyond what they would cer- they…. Again, because I don’t have the deep-dive knowledge tainly be entitled to with that payout and say: “How do we of the taxi industry, I wouldn’t say that the Fed wouldn’t take ensure that this workforce — still, many will have an awful a position that they should be employees in some cases. lot of years lef in employable years — receives meaningful I would also say that in the jurisdictions…. Tis is shifing transition to something?” landscape across the country, because it’s a burgeoning Governments ofen look to industries that, for them, are industry. Other jurisdictions that have deemed them to be somewhat transferable skills to help mitigate those training employees under their employment standards acts also have costs. My point is, and our point is, that government should taxis. take seriously the disruption, try and minimize this dis- ruption and, where it’s there, provide meaningful training J. Johal: Tank you for your presentation as well. My col- so that they’re not just taking out what they put in them- league Ms. Cadieux touched on some of the questions that I selves to the cost of the taxi licence, but they actually have want to ask you, so I won’t go long. something as citizens that they can look forward to product- I just have one question, particularly in regards to a trans- ively for good-paying, family-supporting, community-sup- ition fund you had talked about. I was recently talking to porting, taxpaying jobs. a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago, and I think one of his relatives had owned half-share of a taxi. He’s retired and A. Olsen: I guess I’m going to struggle to get through this, wasn’t a driver, but he owned a share. I think he unloaded it because I kind of sensed what my colleague MLA Cadieux for about $30,000 or $50,000. About fve years ago, that prob- — what her line of questioning was. While on one hand you ably would’ve been $300,000 for a half-share. say that you’re not an expert in the taxi industry and that One would argue that the market is already sort of taking you’re not directly comparing them, I believe in your testi- the arrival of ride-sharing — not here but in other jurisdic- mony — at least from what I heard — you were kind of using tions…. It’s already worked into the price. So the comments that industry as the wall to bounce your ball of of. you’re making about a transition fund, I fnd interesting. I [2:10 p.m.] think in the ’90s — I brought this up yesterday — you recall You may not be directly comparing them. But you were the federal government bought back the fshing feet to a cer- juxtaposing them and suggesting that one industry, or one tain degree. aspect of the industry, provides this kind of labour, and the I’m curious as to what you…. If you could elaborate a other aspect of it that we’re talking about here coming in little bit more on a transition allowance, how do we deal basically shouldn’t be allowed because of the labour condi- with some of these folks who are dealing with that disruptive tions, which other people who have provided us testimony nature of this technology, taking into context all industries have told us that essentially, they’re the same. are being disrupted? I think that there’s probably a much longer conversation Te Federation of Labour, of course, would know that that we could have somewhere else on another day about the very well. You have such a wide range of employees, from two and the Fed’s position on taxis. I guess I need a little bit those working in sawmills to many other places, and every- of help understanding where the distinction is for you. body’s being disrupted. When you talk about a transition On one hand, we’ve been told that there’s very little dis- allowance, or helping folks transition, what are we talking tinction to be made. On the other hand…. As well, you sug- about? gest that…. Anyway, I repeat myself.

L. Cronk: Fascinating question. I’m glad you asked it. You L. Cronk: Again, I’m not going to try and dive into the can talk about all sorts of industries federally as well, where taxi industry as an expert, because I’m not. But I will say this. the removal of coal across the country…. Te federal govern- I heard you mention a minute ago to the efect that we’re say- ment has seriously dipped their toe into a transition, it looks ing we shouldn’t do this because of the employment issues. like, and are in consultation for the workers that are afected I’m not saying you shouldn’t do this. I’m saying while you do in Alberta and other places on that front. it, you should bear in mind the most important commodity To your point on the licensing, that they can sell of at within the ride-hailing system, which is the employee or the the end, I would never begrudge a worker who had put person driving the vehicle. money into a licence to receive something for that at the We’re not saying: “Don’t do ride-hailing.” We’re saying: end of the day. Not to be glib, but $50,000 is nothing to be 234 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

“Respect the worker along the way.” Tere’s a big distinction workers in the union and non-union area, particularly non- between those two things. I think I’ll leave it at that. union there. I think there’s room for this commission and government P. Milobar: Tanks for your presentation. I appreciate to look at whether or not this can be concluded before ride- you weren’t here last year making the presentation, but most hailing comes in. I don’t believe there’s an avenue for the of us were here, and the same issue around “are they an Federation of Labour to receive that from the employment employee or not under employment standards?” came up. standards branch, so I’m appealing through this body to get Tat was a year ago. Move forward ten months, and we that done. fnally have Bill 55. Now here we are two and a half months [2:15 p.m.] later. I’m just wondering. Has your organization sought out cla- J. Sturdy: Tank you for your explanation there, your rifcation, in partnership or as part of a submission by the thoughts. It’s interesting. government to get clarifcation, around whether or not I want to dive a little bit deeper on the issue of minimum drivers in TNSs are actually employees or not? Or is the wage or a living wage or some formal wage level. I’ve heard hope: don’t worry about what the employment standards this from many diferent parties at this table. Understanding branch may or may not think about it? Do you want the gov- how the app actually works…. You may have the app on for ernment to bring in rules that just say: “Regardless of what an extended period of time, or you may be sitting at home the branch may think or not think, this is the new rule and watching television. You have an opportunity to determine this is the new classifcation”? whether or not you want to accept a ride, which I do think actually plays into the issue of whether you’re an employee L. Cronk: Tat’s a good question. I would put it to you or not. But we’ll leave that one aside. this way. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me as the president What would the Fed’s expectation be around compensa- of the Fed to have this come in without clarity for the ride- tion or minimum wage? Is it when you accept the ride, or is hailing companies, clarity for the potential drivers of these it when you turn your app on? vehicles on whether employment standards apply or not. Have we applied to employment standards for an opinion L. Cronk: Another really good question. I don’t want to on it? No. I’m not even sure we’d have the process under the take my 1997 employment standards hat and put it on and act to make that application until somebody was in the pos- tell you what the ruling would be under the act. We are suf- ition. But I think this commission has the ability to work fciently convinced these are employees. Ten the act would within its framework to make a recommendation that that apply, and the act would decide what that is. should be done before ride-hailing comes in. Tere is some technical expertise needed on the question Tat should be looked at and determined so that we don’t you’re asking that I don’t profess to have exactly, but I can tell spend the next six months or a year of ride-hailing with the you this. Tere’s a minimum two-hour call-out right now. I best intentions on one side or the other and a whole bunch of recognize this isn’t an everyday occurrence, but at one end of employees trying to battle for something and fnd out afer- the spectrum, if somebody performed a 30-minute drive in wards whether they are or they’re not. If they fnd out that a day, the Employment Standards Act would require at least they are and the ride-hailing companies didn’t think they two hours of pay. It used to be four; it’s been reduced to two. were going to be, now you’ve got some mayhem in the sys- We would contend it should be back to four. Nonetheless, tem that you have an opportunity right now to stop from that would be one example. happening. What happens in terms of an on-call provision…. I could We contend they should be employees. I would closely…. cite chapter and verse of how we deal with that under col- Like contention 1(a), we need clarity. lective agreements. Employment standards will have its own version of it. Tey’ll be sufciently codifed within their doc- P. Milobar: So just to clarify, your preferred method umentation to be able to deal with that. wouldn’t be, necessarily, an overriding rule brought in, a Te primary question is: are they an employee? Ten the piece of legislation or a regulation by government. You’d rest of the act follows that. So there will be some minimum rather it run a proper course through the branch and get call-out provisions in the act that will apply. Te going in, them to make a ruling independent of political interference. going out, going in, going out, waiting at home — I’d have to defer to an employment standards ruling on that. L. Cronk: Well, the branch will make its own ruling regardless. Tey’re within their mandate to make it under J. Sturdy: I’d just comment, then, that I think you’re the regulations that they have. Te Employment Standards maybe very urban-centric. In much of British Columbia, Act needs revision. Te Employment Standards Act needs to the reality is you get a call or a couple of calls a week. So start to look at the diferences in the gig economy and sec- the question…. I would suggest that what you’re proposing toral bargaining type of arrangements and how that afects would ensure that we’d never see ride-hailing anywhere but where there’s a density of activity. Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 235

L. Cronk: I don’t think a two-hour minimum necessarily, agency that was created about 30 years ago to administer if there was a call in a day, at minimum wage, is going to put funds — we’re primarily a fscal agent — that are collected ride-hailing out of business. from sales taxes. We then distribute those funds and pri- oritize projects. In the intervening decades, we’ve taken on J. Sturdy: It will make it impossible, absolutely. On Bowen some additional roles, including the Congestion Manage- Island, you will not have ride-hailing. I guarantee you that. ment Agency for San Francisco County as well as charge for In Pemberton, you will not have ride-hailing. all of the long-range planning that happens in the county for I think you need to consider that when you’re thinking transportation. It’s in these capacities that we undertook a lot about society overall. I’m not trying to be argumentative, of the work that we’ve been doing on TNCs. but when you’re talking about the rest of British Columbia, I want to frst talk about…. My presentation, I think, is there’s an important service to be provided, as well, that slightly diferent than some of the others. I know there was needs to be facilitated and supported. a request to address the key issues or topics of interest to the committee that included where they should operate and L. Cronk: Maybe a conversation for the Employment boundaries and so on, but I want to take it a little bit further. Standards Act and how it looks at gig and sectoral issues Number one is to say that in reviewing those questions, coming forward as well. I think there is a much broader set of concerns, which are in some cases explicit and in some cases implicit, that go B. Ma (Chair): Any other questions from committee beyond things like just the geographic coverage but address members? things like how we ensure timely and reliable service. What Mr. Cronk and Ms. Mofatt, thank you so much for com- is an appropriate feet size, if that’s a question we want to ing out today. answer. How do we think about and address questions of Our next presenter is Mr. Joe Castiglione from the San congestion? How do we deal with equity and afordability Francisco County Transportation Authority. Can I say thank issues? What about the public safety concerns and disabled you so much for taking the time to come up here from access and, as the prior speakers were just talking about, San Francisco to present to our committee. We’re very, very wages? grateful. Te frst speaker this afernoon referred to how we under- stand…. Te term we call it is TNC in California, for trans- J. Castiglione: I want to just thank you for giving me the portation network company, so you’ll have to forgive my opportunity to talk to you about our experience in San Fran- habit of referring to TNCs and not TNSs. I’m also going to cisco. refer to miles and not kilometres. And, you know, how do we deal with things like the existing investments we’ve made? B. Ma (Chair): Wonderful. You will be provided with Tat could be something like a taxi medallion, as we call 25 minutes of uninterrupted time to present. We normally them in San Francisco. But it could also be something like, then have 20 minutes of questions aferwards. But given the for example, in the Bay Area, where we’ve made a multi-bil- distance that you’ve come, and we are running a little bit lion-dollar investment to extend BART, the heavy rail sys- early…. You’ve already agreed to allow us to extend your tem, all the way to our airport and the implications that question time a little bit, and we’re very grateful for that as we’ve seen with respect to ridership on BART in light of the well. We’ll run questions all the way till 3:15, which is the availability of TNCs. Of course, there’s always the question next presentation. So it will go ten minutes long. of compatibility with the existing regulatory regimes and, Do you have any questions for us before you begin? everyone’s favourite topic, data. What I’d like to do frst is walk you through a brief history J. Castiglione: I don’t think so. of TNCs in San Francisco — and I mean very brief — and then describe to you or present to you a profle of TNC activ- B. Ma (Chair): Tank you, again, for making your way up ity. Te reason why I’d like to do that is because I think it here. Please proceed when you are ready. brings into relief some of the questions that I think you all have been grappling with. Ten I’d like to describe to you SAN FRANCISCO COUNTY some very comprehensive quantitative analysis that we have TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY done on the efects of TNCs that we’ve seen in San Francisco. I think all of this is with an eye towards giving you an under- J. Castiglione: First, I’ll start with an introduction of standing of the outcomes that have occurred in San Fran- myself and the agency that I work for. My name is Joe Cas- cisco in the context of the California TNC regulatory regime, tiglione, and I’m the deputy director for technology, data which I would say is generally pretty permissive. and analysis for the San Francisco County Transportation San Francisco, of course, is maybe not the place where Authority. TNCs started but certainly the place where they got a lot of [2:20 p.m.] early traction. Between 2010 and 2012, a few diferent TNC Te San Francisco County Transportation Authority is an companies came on line in San Francisco and, in fact, are 236 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 based in San Francisco, including Uber and Lyf and some if somebody else wants to come along — another agency, that didn’t last. Tey existed initially well within the existing another researcher, another company — and say, “Well, I regulatory framework. think you got this wrong,” they have the data to make such In fact, Uber was essentially a licensed carrier, but then an assertion. it became somewhat extra-regulatory. So then in 2013, the We came out with a report. It’s called TNCs Today. It came legislature in California determined that the California Pub- out about 18 months ago, and we sought to answer a few key lic Utilities Commission would be the regulator for TNCs questions. Number one was just how many TNCs are oper- statewide. Tis is a little bit diferent than how taxis have ating in San Francisco. By that, I mean both the number of been typically regulated, which has been at the level of the people who we think are driving for TNCs as well as the individual municipality. number of vehicles that are on the road at any one time. How Te efect is that we actually have in San Francisco two many TNC trips are occurring in San Francisco, where are diferent schemes. We have taxis operating, and we have those trips occurring, and when are those trips occurring? TNCs operating. Indeed, the line between them is blurring a How much VMT TNCs generate. Te term VMT refers little bit as taxis have adopted apps and so on. But there are to vehicle miles travelled, so this is a kind of measure of some signifcant diferences, including the fact that there is how much driving around TNCs are doing. Te reason why no cap on TNC feet sizes in San Francisco. Of course, there this is really important is that in the state of California — is a cap on the number of taxis that can operate. and, specifcally, in San Francisco already — we’ve embraced Tere are no pricing controls. Of course, pricing for taxis VMT as a new standard for assessing the environmental in San Francisco is regulated. Tere are no TNC per-trip impacts of transportation and land use projects, as opposed fees, which many jurisdictions have enacted around the to, say, what would have been traditionally used — some- country, in the U.S., except for some exceptions at airports thing like roadway level of service or speeds. by virtue of ground access. And there’s no TNC data that’s Finally, and this is a bit of an equity perspective, do TNCs going to the jurisdictions. TNCs are required to report data provide geographic coverage across the entire city? to the CPUC, but none of that data is shared with jurisdic- Tere are a couple of links here that I include because tions. for each one of the reports that we put out, in addition to [2:25 p.m.] being able to, as I said, download the data and download the Tat’s a pretty brief history. I think in San Francisco, when report, we also create an interactive visualization of the data TNCs frst came on line, people were super excited about so that folks can go in and play around with it. I personally having this new mobility option. It was inexpensive. It was have a lot of fun with it, and I encourage people to check it responsive. Getting a cab in San Francisco was always very out. difcult. It sounds like that’s probably been the case here in Te frst question is: how many TNCs are operating in San Vancouver. It was really viewed as an unmitigated positive. Francisco today? Te frst thing I’ll say is that it’s really dif- Now, TNCs have been in San Francisco for almost nine fcult. In San Francisco, because TNCs are regulated by the years — about eight years, a little bit more. In the last few state, we have no way of knowing exactly how many TNC years, it did seem as though we reached a bit of an infection drivers are driving in San Francisco. point where people were saying: “Well yeah, this was really However, by virtue of doing business as independent con- great. I really appreciate it. But it seems like there are an tractors in San Francisco, they are required to register with awful lot of these cars on the street right now.” Te way that the city. So we were able to, with the comptroller’s ofce, we identify these vehicles in San Francisco — and in the basically estimate how many drivers are doing business in state, in fact — is that there’s a trade dress, essentially a stick- San Francisco and, based on their doing-business address, er on a window. Not quite as strong a brand as, say, a Yellow fgure out how many are actually San Francisco residents. Cab but still identifable. It was pretty striking. Tere were about 20,000 people, a It was around this time that our decision-makers said: little over that, that we estimated were TNC drivers. Interest- “Well, can you help us answer this question?” And I want to ingly, less than 30 percent actually had San Francisco resid- maybe emphasize a couple of things. One, one of the earlier ence or business addresses. About 70 percent of the people speakers mentioned that more data leads to better decision- who were driving around in TNCs, or the drivers, are com- making. I think that that’s absolutely true, and that’s an ethos ing in from the other eight counties in the Bay Area. that we embrace very strongly at the transportation author- What you see…. Tere are a couple of charts here. For ity in San Francisco. the most part in this report, we try and compare TNCs to Everything I’m going to present to you is all very data- taxis. So the data from TNCs that we have comes from the driven, all the analysis. We always get peer-review by aca- very end, November and December, of 2016. You might of demics, by other agencies, and importantly, all of the data course frst be asking the question: “Didn’t you just say that that we use for this analysis, we make available to the public. you can’t get data?” Well, this was a very compelling, I think, It’s anonymized. It’s aggregated. Tere’s no risk of any per- public question that we were being asked. sonally identifable information being released. We believe We did try and solicit and request from the CPUC the that that kind of transparency is really important so that data on TNCs. Tey said it was not in the public interest Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 237 to share that with us, even as a public agency. So we had a Certainly, the trend line that we’ve started to see is that TNCs collaboration with some computer scientists at Northeastern are very much competing with transit at this point. University in Boston who scraped the APIs of Uber and Lyf When are the trips occurring? I won’t dwell on this too for about six weeks, handed over to us about 12 terabytes of much, other than to say a couple of things. Te chart on telemetry data, which is basically all of the location, spatial the top shows by day of week. So the farthest to the lef is and time-stamp data of when all the vehicles are out of ser- Monday. You can see the number of trips grows, from about vice, when they’re driving around looking for rides. 120,000 to 130,000 on Monday to about 220,000 on Friday. [2:30 p.m.] Tis was, again, about two years ago, so undoubtedly, it’s With the help of my esteemed colleague, Drew Cooper, we higher still now. Ten it drops of. It stays very high on Sat- were able to kind of distil that down into the information urdays and drops of on Sundays. that you see here. We have had a chance to validate it a Ten, in the chart on the bottom, you can see that time-of- couple of times and get some insights into some data that day pattern. You can see that there really is a consistent a.m. has been shared with us. In all cases, the data has essentially and p.m. peak during the weekdays, and then, on then three measured up extremely well. peaks of to the far right, you can actually see what we call What you see here, in the chart on the lef, is the black line the kind of getting-out-of-bar spike, where there’s that little represents the number of TNC vehicles that are out on the third spike at the end, and that happens around midnight. So street at any given time of day. Te yellow line represents the that is really happening and is evidenced in this data. number of taxis that are out on the street by time of day. Tis Where are trips happening? I think this is the main is in late 2016. takeaway from the TNCs Today report, that the majority of What do we see? On the lef is a typical weekday. It shows the trips that are TNC trips are happening in the most con- that there are at least, in order of magnitude, more TNCs gested parts of San Francisco at the most congested times of on the street in San Francisco than there are taxis. I think day. this speaks to the question of: what is the impact of having Tat’s what you see kind of lighting up here. Tis is a heat an essentially unconstrained supply? Tere is a tremendous map of TNC activity. For those of you who are familiar with amount of supply that kind of rolls in to satisfy the demand San Francisco, you’ll quickly recognize that that really bright that’s happening in San Francisco. At peak times of day, there spot in the northeast quadrant is our downtown, our South are about 15 times as many TNCs on the streets as there are of Market. It’s really where the vast majority of the employ- taxis. ment is. It’s where the high-density residences are. Te other thing that I would note on the chart on the lef You do see some kinds of corridors light up as well. Te is that it looks like you see two peaks. Tere’s an a.m. peak, Geary corridor in the east-west — again, a very high transit- and there’s a p.m. peak, on a typical weekday. Tis looks use corridor — typically carries the bus lines that are over very much like the travel patterns we see for people driving 50,000 or 60,000 riders a day. And then the Mission corridor, themselves, for taking transit. So a lot of the rhetoric around which heads north-south down towards the county line, is of TNCs really flling needs around evening and weekend ser- course also where there’s a lot of high-intensity transit. vice is absolutely true but ignores the fact that there’s tre- At the peak periods, we estimate that the share of auto mendous — in fact, the vast majority — travel happening trips, vehicle trips, happening in the South of Market, which during the peak periods and in the midday. is really our kind of growth area right now, is about 25 per- We do see evening travel, though, that’s quite notable on cent. So it’s a very signifcant share. the weekends. You see that refected in the chart on the I won’t dwell on this one too much. I don’t know that right, where you can see the black line keeps going. As you VMT is as much of a concern for you all as it is for us in move farther and farther to the right, it still stays at a very San Francisco and in California. Tis shows the amount of high number. Tat shows that TNCs are quite active up until VMT that’s generated by TNCs and taxis relatively. We can about midnight on Friday, and then it begins to tail of. break out both what we call in-service, when they’re carry- How many trips are happening in San Francisco? In San ing a passenger, or out-of-service, when they’re basically just Francisco, there are about 170,000 trips on a typical weekday. deadheading and not carrying a passenger. We estimate that that’s about 15 percent of all intra-S.F. [2:35 p.m.] vehicle trips. Tat’s a very signifcant number, because eight We estimate that TNCs add about 570,000 vehicle miles of years ago, it was zero percent. As I said, it’s between ten and travel every single weekday, so over one million in a typical 15 times the number of taxi trips. week. Tat represents about 6½ percent of the total VMT on I should also note that this is a conservative estimate. Tis San Francisco streets and about 20 percent of the intra–San was just intra-S.F. trips. So folks going back and forth to SFO, Francisco VMT. the big airport, or down to Silicon Valley, or possibly even It’s not all a bad picture in the sense that TNCs are actually across the Bay Bridge to the East Bay or to the North Bay, a little bit more efcient from a deadheading perspective are not refected in this. As a share of all intra–San Fran- than taxis, most likely by virtue of the feet size. Tere are cisco person-trips, not just vehicle trips, it’s about 9 percent. so many of these vehicles out there, they simply don’t have Somebody noted that it may, at one point, overtake transit. to drive as far to pick up their next ride, whereas the taxi 238 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 feet is much smaller, so there’s a lot more deadheading. We precipitously. It’s not just limited to the northeast quadrant. estimate about 20 percent of total VMT generated by TNCs Speeds dropped everywhere, on average. Tis is the one is deadhead, which is just all essentially bad. Tere’s no pas- place where I did a conversion from about 27 kilometres per senger being carried by it. But for taxis, that’s almost 40 per- hour to about 19. So it was a rather signifcant drop, more cent, so it’s signifcantly higher. than a 25 percent drop, in speeds. Delay went up by about 63 With respect to the question of equity, do TNCs provide percent. a high degree of geographic coverage throughout the city? We did look at things like auto ownership. Tere was no Tis was a little trickier to explain, but we tried to look at change in auto ownership on any kind of per-capita basis. this a couple of ways. In the chart on the right, you see the But as I said, we did have a lot of population growth, a lot ratio of TNC trips to taxi trips. Te darker areas show that of employment growth and some network changes — for TNCs are actually doing a much better job of serving the example, reconstructing the big freeway that connected the western and southern parts of the city, which are ofen less Golden Gate Bridge to the downtown, taking roadway capa- transit-accessible, and some of the lower-economic, lower- city for bus lanes and for bike lanes. All those things can income neighbourhoods, if you can imagine there are any in afect congestion as well. San Francisco anymore. What we sought to answer with this report is: of all these It actually shows that TNCs were providing accessibilities factors, or at least these four primary factors, how much that taxis simply weren’t providing. Conversely, in the map does each account for the changes in congestion that we’ve on the right, you can see that this is the ratio of TNC trips seen? Tis is what we found. When you look at the efects of per population and job. So it’s almost like how many trips network, population growth, employment growth and TNC you’re making per person. You can see, actually, though, that growth, this is the change in congestion, using three very most of these trips are still concentrated in that northeastern common measures of congestion, that we attribute to each of quadrant, which is the most congested part of the city. those factors. What this report showed us was that there are a lot of In all cases, about half of the increase in delay, we estimate, TNC trips. Tey’re happening in the most congested parts of is attributable to TNCs and about a quarter each to popula- the city, for the most part, at the most congested times of day. tion and employment growth. Very little increase in conges- Tey are providing some accessibility in the evenings and on tion is due to network growth — something like between 1 weekends, perhaps when transit service is less pronounced. and 4 percent. But what we couldn’t answer is: what does this mean? Are [2:40 p.m.] TNCs afecting our transit ridership, which has been pretty Te measures that we used were delay, a common measure much fat? Tis is a bit surprising, because we’ve added a lot that not just economists but other people like to use, as well, of population and jobs, as you can see underneath the chart because it represents how much extra time people are spend- on the right. Something like 70,000 new people moved to ing stuck in trafc; VMT, which, as I’ve mentioned, is a really San Francisco between 2010 and 2016. Over 150,000 new important metric for us for environmental quality analyses jobs between 2010 and 2016, yet our transit ridership was in the state of California and the county of San Francisco; fat. and then just average speeds, which is a very common meas- San Francisco has a very high transit mode share, relat- ure. Tat’s what we use for our level of service, and it’s very ively speaking, for American cities, but we couldn’t say any- understandable to everybody. Te changes, however, did not thing about whether TNCs were afecting transit ridership. play out equally in space and time. We couldn’t say anything about whether TNCs were afect- Here’s a look at changes in average speeds for the fve ing congestion, who was using them and for what purposes, time periods that we looked at. What you can see during the how much they were paying, what the true occupancy was, middle of the day — that’s 6 a.m. to nine, nine to three and etc. three to six — is that on average during this period, speeds We just released our most recent report last October, decreased by about three miles per hour, and between 45 which seeks to answer the kind of top-line question that and 55 percent of that increase, we estimate, was attributable everybody said, which is: are TNCs afecting congestion? I to TNCs. Tere was a really precipitous decline in speeds in mentioned earlier that we, as the congestion management the evening, though, where the average speeds went down agency for San Francisco, track congestion and have been by over four miles per hour. I’m not sure. Was that six kilo- doing so since the early ’90s. What you see on the chart and metres per hour or something? We estimate that about 75 the map on the right is what we call the level of service. It’s percent of that change was due to additional TNC trafc. essentially a measure of speed. You see a fair amount of yel- Here’s how it played out in space. Now, I know that you low, which is kind of average, a few places that are orange, aren’t familiar with the supervisorial districts, but that’s what not too many places that are red but a fair amount of green each one of these bar charts represents. I’ll have to describe too. to you what each of these locations is. You can see that this is Tat was 2009. By 2017, you can see that the entire South a measure of the increase in hours of delay, every single typ- of Market and north of Market networks had changed to ical weekday. red, which essentially means that speeds had dropped really D6, which is district 6, represents the South of Market, Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 239

Treasure Island and Mission Bay, places where we’ve had a call the PUDO, the pickup and drop-of efect, was signifc- huge amount of growth in the last six years: over 12,000 ant, about 80 seconds of additional delay. hours of additional delay every single day, but less than 50 [2:45 p.m.] percent of that is actually attributable to TNCs. In fact, Tis is not just the time that the person is getting out of employment growth accounts for something like 36 percent the car. As they’re getting out of the car, there’s also a car of the increase in delay, which I think would conform with behind them that’s queued up and a car behind them that’s people’s visual impression of South of Market, which is a queued up. What we’re quantifying is all of that delay. On huge number of new towers, Salesforce, etc. minor arterials, it was about 80 seconds for pickup and drop- District 3, however, also increased by about 6,000 hours of, and on major arterials, it was about 140 seconds for of delay. District 3 is the traditional downtown core, Chin- pickup and drop-of. atown and North Beach It has not experienced that much With respect to the spatial distribution — almost certainly population or employment growth, but it did have a fair increasing congestion. I think the frst speaker this afernoon increase in delay. Over three-quarters of that delay, we estim- referred to the fact that if you add one vehicle in the down- ate, is due to TNCs. town core in the peak period, that is a very diferent efect If you go out to some of the western neighbourhoods, like than adding one vehicle out in the neighbourhoods in the district 4, the Sunset District, there’s very little increase in middle of the night or afer bars are getting out. delay between these two years, and certainly very little that With respect to ride-sharing, there is some evidence that would be attributable to TNCs. Tis, I think, has implica- there is some increased ride-sharing. I think the companies tions when folks start to think about policies. have done a great job of trying to promote this. Certainly, In district 3 and district 6, where there was the greatest people are choosing…. Now, whether they end up getting increase in delay, we actually have incredibly rich transit ser- paired with somebody…. It does suggest that increased ride- vice — heavy rail, light rail, bus. In district 4, we do have sharing is probably helping to mitigate some congestion. some bus service, some light rail service, but it’s not nearly as Mode substitution. Now, this is where it gets quite inter- intense as it is in the downtown core. So there are diferent esting because there is a body of literature that’s really actu- places where TNCs can be more or less efective in helping ally out there right now. You know, if somebody were just to provide those kinds of mobility options to folks. driving in their car by themselves or maybe with their family In summary, I guess I would say…. Tis is a slide that one and they decide to take a TNC instead — perhaps they want of our collaborators, Dr. Greg Erhardt at the University of to come home afer drinking — it’s kind of a net wash. Tey Kentucky, created. When we try to answer this question of would have driven anyway. Another vehicle is on the road. do TNCs contribute to congestion…. Well, when we look at For every person who would have taken transit and is now deadheading, almost certainly they are making congestion in a TNC or would have ridden a bike or would have walked worse through deadheading, driving around without pas- even — the UCLA example was mentioned earlier — that’s sengers. It varies by city, varies by location, but it certainly a new vehicle trip, holding on to the fact that there are even does increase congestion. induced trips. Te idea is that by providing a new mobility Pickups and drop-ofs. Tis was something really inter- option, which is undeniably a good thing, you’re actually get- esting, I think, that we did in our study. It speaks to the ting people to travel more, and that also adds more vehicles importance of the granularity of the data. For example, data and adds more delay. that’s reported to the CPUC is done at a zip code– postal Right now the literature suggests that about 5 to 12 per- code–level that’s relatively aggregated. In San Francisco, cent of TNC vehicle trips appear to be induced trips. Tat’s there are about 30, so they’re quite large. Te data that our kind of a good thing. People are wanting to take trips they collaborators were able to share with us and that we were wouldn’t have been able to do otherwise. But something like able to then distil actually allows us to get estimates of the between 50 and 60-plus percent of the TNC trips are shifs actual number of TNCs that are driving around on every dir- from transit, from biking and walking. And that’s not really ectional street segment, including an imputation of where the direction that we want to be going. I think it also speaks the pickup and drop-of locations are. to the question of competition versus complementarity with We then — I won’t bore you with the statistics — did respect to transit. some panel regression models to say how much do each…? On that transit frst mile, last mile, the literature is a little Are TNCs contributing to congestion? And then: what are bit ambiguous. We have found some evidence that does the factors? Is it when they’re driving around with a passen- provide frst mile, last mile to heavy rail, commuter rail. But ger? Is it when they’re driving around without a passenger, for light rail, urban light rail and buses, it does actually seem the deadheading? Or is it the pickups and drop-ofs? I don’t to consume some of that ridership. know if this is your experience here or in other cities where We haven’t just been engaging in these kinds of quantit- there are TNCs presently, but it’s not uncommon to see folks ative analyses. In fact, our next report is specifcally looking getting in and out of cars that are blocking trafc, interrupt- at the relationship between TNCs and transit ridership. But ing fow, blocking transit. We actually found that what we we’ve also done a couple of other reports. One that I want to mention frst is the emerging mobility 240 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 report fndings. Tis looked at not just TNCs. TNCs are one I would encourage you, if you look at the…. I’m going to new mobility option. You may not experience it with quite skip ahead right here. Tis is all in the emerging mobility the intensity or frequency that we do in San Francisco, but it evaluation link that I provided at the bottom. We have a seems like, every couple of months, we have a new mobility TNC regulatory framework paper that also talks about not option — mopeds, electric scooters, dockless shared bikes. just the regulatory framework in San Francisco and in Cali- What this report seeks to do is to try to understand, along fornia but across the United States — which I think might be some of these principles that the city has established, how a helpful reference point, if you haven’t discovered it already well we’re measuring up on things like safety, equity, labour — and then the two reports that we put out in the last 18 force issues, and so on. months: TNCs Today, the profle, and TNCs and Congestion. And it’s a bit of a mixed bag. Tere are some things that I want to just fnally talk about the data. It was raised: I think have been really good — for example, with respect “Well, why should we be putting a burden on TNCs to report to safety. Tis, I think, does speak to some of your questions data that other people aren’t required to report?” Now, in San about what kinds of regulations may be appropriate. Drivers Francisco, that’s not the best argument, because we actually are subjected to background checks. But there are things do require people to report this. For example, taxis have an that seem like they’re perhaps not the most safe — like rely- API, and all of the analysis that you saw for taxis is based ing on in-app messaging. Te safety training is not actually on the same type of telemetry data that we get for TNCs. It’s required. based on the same data that we get for taxis. One of the things is that, in California, drivers can drive Similarly in San Francisco, there are shuttle buses, the for, I want to say, ten hours in a day. But if you’re driving Google buses, the big tech shuttles. Tey also have to provide for two services, there’s nothing…. Te TNCs do, I under- telemetry data to the city to make sure that they are operat- stand, monitor to make sure that people don’t drive for ten ing only on approved arterials and so on. Te information is hours on their service, but there’s no coordination. So many, required of other providers in San Francisco. many drivers drive for multiple services at the same time. Tere have been no issues with personally identifable Tey could easily drive, if they wanted to, for 20 hours, and information being revealed. It is highly detailed, which has it would go undetected. allowed us to do things like understand what the curb In fact, the San Francisco police department did a study implications and the delay implications may be with pickup on trafc infractions between 2014 and 2017 in that really and drop-of, which have direct implications, potentially, for dense South of Market area. About 75 percent of the trafc policies. But it is, again, all anonymized and aggregated. infractions, regarding blocking lanes or illegal U-turns, were Conversely, the TNC data in California is just reported to accruing to TNCs. As I said, they only represent about 25 the state. We can’t see any of it. No agency has seen any of percent of the trips there, so that’s a much higher level of it. And it’s very aggregate. For example, if you wanted to try incidence. and answer the question of frst- and last-mile transit access With respect to equity, some of the concerns that have via TNCs, the data that’s currently reported under the state been identifed in our study were that there were no low- regulatory regime would not be precise enough to allow you income fare products. Tere was no way for folks — at least, to make those conclusions. at the time this report came out last summer — to book or I hope I didn’t go on too long. Again, thank you for giving pay unless you had access to the Internet or a smartphone. me the opportunity to talk to you about the work that we’ve On the other hand, they do provide accessibility at times and seen and the outcomes that we’ve seen in San Francisco. in places where that might not be available. [2:50 p.m.] B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. I hope committee I do think this needs to be understood, though, when we members will forgive me. I did allow that presentation to talk about why there are so many drivers in the core. It’s complete. much easier for a driver, probably, to have a hope of making a reasonable wage if they’re in a high-density area. Tat’s why J. Johal: First of all, thank you for your presentation. Tat we have 70 percent of the drivers coming in from outside was great to see. I learned a lot. We have a tendency in San Francisco. Tey’re not staying in their home counties to Vancouver here, sometimes, to compare ourselves to New drive around; they’re coming into the city to drive and make York and what’s happening in New York. I always think that money. when you’ve got similar-sized cities like San Francisco or the It suggests that TNCs do provide better accessibility in region and Vancouver, it’s a much better example for us to some of the neighbourhoods that aren’t well served by taxis. learn from. With respect to disabled access, again, it’s a bit of a mixed A very broad question, frst of all. Your presentation was bag. Tere are options that are available, but they actually very interesting. If we look at societal standards, employ- cost more, which seems inequitable. Again, with labour, for ment standards, minimum wage, those are the kinds of con- sure, there have been great opportunities for people to enter versations we’ve been having over the last couple of days. the workforce, but the wage rates ofen aren’t very transpar- Taking that into context with everything you’ve said today, ent. is your community well served in regard to those two indus- Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 241 tries — taxis, TNCs? You’ve got transit, but the overall needs standard, greater responsibility. Has there been any broader of your community…. With what you’re seeing, what you’ve conversation in San Francisco? explained to us today, do you believe your community is well It is the Silicon Valley. It is, I would argue, the tech capital served? of the world, so things are a little diferent there. But has there been a conversation there — you lead the world, in J. Castiglione: I think embedded in that question is: what many cases, with many of your start-ups — in actually look- is the objective? If the objective is…. As a congestion man- ing at some of these issues and bringing in a class 4 or class 5 agement agency, we obviously keep our eye on congestion. If type of system, a geofencing conversation or price controls? we see a very radical increase in congestion over the course Has there been that type of conversation afer the fact, pres- of a relatively short time frame and then see that about half, ently? by our estimates, of that increase is attributable to one sector, then that might be a cause for alarm. We might say: “Well, J. Castiglione: I can partially answer that question. I don’t maybe that isn’t serving the city as well.” But as I observed know whether there have been afer-the-fact questions about earlier, for sure, TNCs are serving areas of the city that were whether there needs to be a new licensing regime. I haven’t not being well served by the taxi industry. I don’t want to get heard anything about that, and I don’t think there’s been into a critique of the taxi industry in San Francisco, but I’ll sufcient evidence to suggest that there has been any great ofer a few tidbits. increase in risk or exposure to the public with the current [2:55 p.m.] licensing regime. One is that ostensibly, by virtue of the medallion, holders With respect to things like geofencing, there has been are supposed to have their vehicles out on the street all the some precedent for that now happening, and that has ofen time. Basically, that’s the privilege of having that medallion. been done in a collaborative spirit by the companies them- Our analysis suggests that we’re nowhere near close to that. selves. For example, around the Caltrain station, which is in Maybe 50 to 60 percent of the vehicles are on the road at any South of Market, a very busy area, tens of thousands of folks given time, which is far short of what they’re required to be. take the train up from Silicon Valley or down to Silicon Val- So from an equity perspective, I think there’s a compelling ley, and there is geofencing around there to help manage the argument to make that, in fact, this is an improvement in the congestion around that node. Tat’s one of the highest TNC city. locations that we see, although many of those TNC trips From the perspective of, say, wages, this is one area where appear to be going short of a mile to downtown, and there’s we haven’t been able to say too much. I want to take great a bus that does that. caution in it. My role is as the director for technology, data Tere have also been some examples of voluntary geofen- and analysis. I don’t make policy decisions; I’m not a board cing around a very popular kind of eating and dining street, member. But with respect to wages, we just don’t have any Valencia Street. So there are some examples for the ability to good information about that. fexibly do that, and again, the frst speaker this afernoon I think there have been studies that have come out now mentioned that. I think there are great prospects for doing that have said something like afer accounting for costs, that. people are making something like around what the minim- um wage is in San Francisco but certainly not signifcantly J. Johal: A fnal question. I guess Uber and Lyf would, for more than that. If that is deemed to be…. you, technically be local companies, being Silicon Valley. San Francisco is a very expensive place to live. What’s happening is that we’re having a lot more vehicles. People J. Castiglione: Tat’s correct. aren’t…. As I said, 70 percent of the drivers probably can’t aford it. Probably the reason why we have 70 percent of the J. Johal: Here we’re having that conversation as well. We people driving in is because San Francisco is an expensive have, here in my community, illegal ride-hailing already, spot to live. Te trade-ofs between wages and costs of living which is language-based. We have a very large Chinese com- are complex. munity that’s already being serviced, even though the service I’m not trying to dodge your question. I just think it’s: is illegal. How well have cooperatives or smaller companies what is it that we’re trying to achieve? I think the reality is — perhaps focusing on geographical area, not Uber or Lyf that we’re trying to achieve lots of things, and it’s: how do we — fared in San Francisco? balance them? J. Castiglione: Well, there were at least one or two other J. Johal: Yeah. I appreciate your answer. One of the things TNCs that came out — I think Side Car was one of them — in your presentation that you talked about was no feet size, around the same time as Lyf in 2011 or 2012 and that no no pricing controls, no per-trip fees, no data reporting. I’ll longer exist. It was smaller and didn’t survive. exclude data reporting just for a moment. We’ve been debat- Te taxis do have a cooperative that is legally a TNC and ing many issues here. One of them is class 4 or class 5. Class 5 has an app. It’s not just street-hail. You can hail them via the is what the average driver would have. Class 4 is a higher app. I can’t speak to whether they’re doing better or worse or 242 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 just holding their ground, but they’re still out there on the frst” city, which was established — I want to say in 1972 — street. as a policy adopted by the Board of Supervisors. We contin- Tere have been other…. Tis was in the news a couple of ue to make big…. weeks ago. San Francisco is a bit of a petri dish for these new On one of the maps that I showed you of where trips mobility options, like Microtransit, which is basically kind of are happening, I highlighted the Geary corridor, which is a crowd-sourced transit routes in San Francisco. Tere were a big east-west corridor in the northern part of the city. We’re few of these companies. Now they’ve all gone by the wayside. making a huge multi-hundred-million-dollar BART invest- Te last one — Chariot, I think — announced they are fold- ment in that corridor — in the Van Ness corridor, which is ing imminently. Tey’re owned by Ford. kind of the western boundary of the northeast quadrant, the [3:00 p.m.] densest part. I think it’s challenging for smaller entities to do so. Again, We in the city continue to make big transit investments. I think the taxi is probably the one that has sustained, but We still…. I think there’s a commitment and a belief and, in that is probably due in no small part to the fact that they do fact, lots of analysis that transit in many areas still is the most have established relationships, history. Folks who show up in efcient way to move large numbers of people around, par- San Francisco and don’t have an app know they can get a cab ticularly at particular times of day. and so on. I think there are a number of what I’ll refer to as the more suburban counties. Te Bay Area is a big area. It’s P. Milobar: I’ll just touch on one, and maybe a follow-up about 7,000 square miles, and nine counties, total, have been question, depending. beginning to think about restructuring suburban bus lines You touched on the more outlying areas in terms of…. and that sort of stuf, and do pilot programs. Tere was a It’s actually been a bit of a beneft, underserved by the taxis, pilot program to serve SMART, which is the new rail cor- and the congestion in more of the downtown cores or the ridor. Tey opened up in Marin County. People are defnitely more heavily densifed areas, either by people living in those exploring that. areas or working, or both, in those areas — much like the I know, at the regional level, the Metropolitan Transport- downtown core of Vancouver or the capital regional district ation Commission, which essentially leads all the transport- around Victoria. However, we have large stretches…. I mean, ation funding for the whole nine-county area, is very much in the city I’m from, 100,000 people, we joke it’s called rush looking at…. When we think about the future, we need to minute and not rush hour, right? So we have a pretty diver- be thinking about how suburban transit is reconfgured to gent system in British Columbia in terms of transportation refect some of these new mobility options. areas. It stands to reason, arguably, that all the downtown cores, P. Milobar: To follow up on that, your best-educated as they densify, are going to see congestion regardless of guess on this or eye on it, around the congestion in more what types of transportation options are out there, simply of those downtown cores. I’m reasonably familiar with San because you keep increasing population in an area that was Francisco. It’s been a few years, but I’ve been there several designed at the turn of the century, the last century. It’s prob- times in the past. It seems the growth has been clipping ably not meant to withstand that type of population growth along pretty good. and employment growth without some sort of congestion Do you feel that had TNCs not come into existence in the happening. last nine years down in San Francisco, right from the cut- Te question, I guess, I have is for those outlying areas. As ting edge, the leading edge, to today, you would have seen you referenced, it’s typically lower socioeconomic incomes a signifcant diference, based on those population growth in those areas, as there are in most cities the farther you get and employment growth areas, in the congestion that you out. Have you noticed…? You said underserved by cabs until see today — without TNCs? Or would it be marginal because the TNCs came in, and they’ve been able to fll that void. people would have still been needing to fnd some way — But did the TNCs result in a putting on hold of any trans- either personal vehicle, more buses, more whatever — to get it expansion into those areas as well? Typically, those areas around in those areas? aren’t just underserved by taxis. Tey’re underserved by pub- [3:05 p.m.] lic transit as well, because the volumes don’t justify more frequent runs every fve, ten, 15 minutes, service like you’d J. Castiglione: Tat’s a great question, and that’s specifc- see on a major corridor to a university or anything like that. ally why we did this analysis with these pie charts. Have you seen anything where the TNCs, other than in What this shows is that of the increase in congestion…. that downtown core congestion, have threatened outlying And let’s be clear. San Francisco was congested in 2010, transit expansion or anything like that, other than that too, just not as congested. But of the increase in congestion they’ve provided more service to those areas? between 2010 and 2016, about half of it was due to TNCs. Tat means the other half was due primarily to population J. Castiglione: In San Francisco, I would say no. San Fran- and employment growth. We might not have seen speeds cisco continues to be very bullish on transit and is a “transit- decline by four, fve, six miles an hour, but it would have Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 243 declined by two, two and a half, three miles an hour. Tere we are a congestion management agency, not a congestion still would’ve been a signifcant…. elimination agency. I think we have a pragmatic realization about what we can do with respect to congestion. P. Milobar: I guess I mean if TNCs didn’t exist at all, I think everyone has seen such a precipitous decline in do you think that other 50 percent that they account for roadway performance that the city is now…. We’re about would’ve disappeared completely in today’s day and age? Or to embark on a study that’s looking at congestion pricing. do you think maybe half of that still would have shown up Tat’s not congestion pricing for TNCs specifcally. It’s to say: on the roads, just in a diferent form than a TNC? “What would congestion pricing look like in the city?” We had done a look at this about ten years ago to say: J. Castiglione: It would show up partially in some people “What if we had diferent congestion pricing schemes driving. It would’ve shown up in some people taking transit around the core or cordons and invested in transit with the and biking and walking. benefts?” We’re going to be reviving that work and taking a look at it now, in light of what we’ve seen happen in the inter- P. Milobar: Okay. Tanks. vening ten years. Within San Francisco, the state has, I think, now author- R. Kahlon: Tank you for the thoughtful presentation and ized a couple of counties, at least, to essentially impose a your thoughtful responses. You’re very diplomatic in the way small fee — I think it’s up to 3½ percent — on some measure in which you answer. I appreciate there are implications to of receipts for TNCs, provided…. I think it’s a two-thirds the way you answer as well — back home as well. vote by the citizenry. On the one hand, that could potentially I’ll try to phrase this question in a very open-ended way. be good, because it would generate revenue that could help You were an early adopter, and you’ve paid some prices along to mitigate some of the, say, congestion impacts. But I would the way for being that early adopter. We are late in the game, say whether it does good or not is also refective of how it’s and we are able to learn from the challenges other com- structured. munities have faced. [3:10 p.m.] If you were in our shoes and you were able to draw this up For example, if…. And this is my opinion. I think there from the beginning…. I’m not asking you to tell me specifcs, are tremendous accessibility benefts in some of the more because you might not be able to tell me specifcs. But at high far-fung or lower density areas. Does it make sense to, in principle levels, what issues would you want us to really con- a sense, tax those users equivalently, when that one addi- sider? Obviously, you’ve laid out the argument for the con- tional vehicle doesn’t have the same impact on congestion as gestion, which is something that everybody who has presen- somebody who’s jumping in a TNC to make a short trip in ted has said to us, except for, perhaps, the TNC company. the downtown core at the peak hour, where the impacts are My question to you would be: in principles, what issues going to be much greater? do you think we should pay special attention to? I think you If there is a desire to look at things like fees, trip fees laid out a couple around safety and others, but maybe if you or something like that, structuring them in such a way that could just recap that for us. Tat would be helpful. they — I don’t want to say penalize — incentivize better behaviour and perhaps penalize less productive behaviour, I J. Castiglione: Sure. As I mentioned at the outset, one of think that that’s worth looking at. the reasons for structuring my presentation as I have is to say I think it’s also important to acknowledge that, again, con- that San Francisco does represent a relatively, not entirely, gestion doesn’t arise just from TNCs. It arises because there unregulated atmosphere. Tere’s very little local control. are people who want to go out and do stuf, go to their Tere’s very little with respect to controls on supply, pricing jobs and have fun with their families. So making sure that — all that sort of stuf. So I think it represents an example of whatever regime is implemented acknowledges that and is what you might see if you adopted a more permissive regu- fair about that is, I think, important. latory strategy. Te counter-argument would be like: “Well, Joe, you may I think it’s probably pretty safe to say that you can expect get in your car, and you drive somewhere with your family, a fair amount more congestion but that it will be particularly the three or four of you, and that’s fne. You’re doing it twice focused in the core. I think it’s fair to say that you will prob- a day. Tat’s a diferent impact than somebody who’s driving ably see increased accessibility and benefts to people who around and making 12 or 15 or 20 trips in a day and all of are maybe living in some of those suburban areas — or the the VMT and vehicle hours of travel that that represents.” times of day. I don’t mean to use this as a trope, but when I think it’s a matter of understanding what the implic- the bars are getting out, and people need to get home, and ations of diferent usages are and then potentially crafing the taxi supply is insufcient, there are certainly going to be policy solutions that, again, incentivize the kinds of out- benefts around those. comes that we’d like to see. Te next comment is going to be a little bit embedded in the fact that our most recent work has been on congestion. S. Chandra Herbert: Tanks for clarifying what the con- Congestion, of course…. Again, if I haven’t said this already, gestion tax that I’ve heard of in San Francisco is like. You 244 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 mentioned one of the areas that had a huge increase right [3:15 p.m.] downtown and the delays. I live right downtown in one of We also, strangely…. We’ve made tremendous invest- the densest parts of Vancouver, and certainly a fear that I ments in bike infrastructure in San Francisco. We saw bike would have is that you would get that increased congestion ridership going up and up and up for a number of years, and for those short trips — from Denman Street up to Granville in the last three years it’s started to plateau and even drop of Street, in our context. Tat could certainly make congestion a little bit, according to our census. Whether that’s correlated worse as you peeled people away from the bus to something with TNCs, we don’t know yet. But it is, again, also a surpris- else. ing trend given the kind of growth we’ve seen in San Fran- Have you seen any loss in transit numbers, in transit cisco and the kind of folks who are moving to San Francisco, riders? You said it was fairly fat, but the population went up. who are very much overlapping with a bike kind of demo- In downtown here, we’ve had population go up. We’ve had graphic. the number of cars entering and exiting downtown actually go down, yet the number of people working down here as A. Olsen: One of the intriguing aspects of having you well has increased. Te only places we’ve seen an increase come and speak to us was so that we could apply what has has really been on transit and cycling and walking, which been learnt in an area to the four specifc areas of regula- is where you want to go. My fear is that we would start to tion that we have to provide comment and advice on. Your head back in the other direction again if we start to rely on presentation painted the picture of San Francisco but doesn’t vehicles. speak to the four points that we have to then hit on. I don’t know if you spoke to that at the very beginning J. Castiglione: Yeah. So, as I mentioned before, transit of your presentation, but I’m just wondering if there is, as ridership has been fat, and we would expect it to be much you’re wrapping up here, any more direct advice that you can higher when we have basically increased the combined pop- give us, as we’re drafing and have a responsibility to fnd a ulation and employment in the city by 25 percent or some- balance in this. thing like that. Our next study is looking specifcally at that to say: “Well, J. Castiglione: Tank you. I didn’t mean to disrespect where have we seen changes in jobs? Where have we seen the wishes of the committee to get more explicit kinds of changes in where people are living? Where have we seen responses to those questions. I felt that based on my own changes in supply? How reliable is transit? How accessible is experience and our experience in San Francisco, we could it?” Tat’s our next study. It should be out in the next two or better represent an example. Tat’s also maybe a refection of three months. It’s a very fne-grained look, I would say a bot- what I view as my role, which is to provide technical analys- toms-up look, at the efects of TNCs on transit. I don’t want is to our decision-makers but to, quite consciously, not make to make predictions about what it will say, but the expecta- policy recommendations. tion would be that transit ridership would have been higher. Tat said, for example, your frst question, I think, was Tat said, there was a study that came out a couple of about the boundaries. Again, I hope that the experience that weeks ago that was an aggregate look at the efects of the we talk about in San Francisco can help say something about introduction of TNCs. It looked at, I want to say, 26 cities that. For example, this map shows…. Tis is the intensity, and regions around the United States, all based on publicly and again, I want to just do a plug. Tis is an interactive map. available data — the national transit database, census data, You can go and play around with it and zoom in and look at etc. It said something like for each year, because as the mar- all of the data, essentially. ket matures, people…. Te frst year the number of people With respect to boundaries, this clearly shows that a lot who rode in TNCs when they were regulated in New York of the concentration of the activity is probably in the places City was 60,000. Two years later it was 600,000. So it takes that we want it least in the sense that it’s the most congested time for a market to mature. part of the city. As I mentioned before, there’s a time-of-day What this aggregate analysis showed was that for each dimension to this. It’s at the most congested times of the day. year, I think it was, that TNCs were available in a region, I don’t want to make a recommendation, but I think con- transit ridership goes down by about 1.4 percent. So over the sideration of the expectation that you might fnd the greatest course of the seven or eight years in San Francisco that TNCs impacts occurring in the densest parts of the city is probably have been available, we would expect that transit ridership a likely outcome under a relatively liberal, permissive regime would have consumed probably about 12½ or 13 percent, or like we have in San Francisco, where there’s no cap on supply, it would be 12½ or 13 percent lower, as a consequence of where there are no restrictions on where anybody can go or, that. functionally, how much they can drive. We’re going to have data out to kind of, essentially, valid- I want to go back and remind myself of some of the earlier ate that in San Francisco. But I think it’s a fair…. It’s not just questions you have. Balancing supply and demand. It’s very this study. Tere’s an increasing number of studies, and our difcult for me to respond to that. Te data set that we had own analysis, that reveal that the majority of TNC trips are did not include any information on pricing. We can use in fact shifing from transit, bike and walk. information on standard rates, but we don’t actually know Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 245 how much people pay. Of course, one of the distinguishing these vehicles, with AVs or with TNCs…. Ultimately, with features of TNCs is that the price can respond to the demand automated vehicles, AVs, maybe we’ll need less parking, at any given time in an attempt to kind of balance supply and because people won’t need to just…. Tey’ll get dropped of, demand. But it’s ofen hard to know what the true price is. and then the car will go pick up someone else. Like, for example, I think there have been…. My boss, Te frst thing we’ve done with respect to parking…. I in fact, texted me yesterday about how she was fnding that would say there are two eforts that are underway. In San when she requested a shared ride, it was actually cheaper Francisco, there are no more parking minimums. It used to than taking transit. She was getting quotes for $2.50 to take be that you had to build at least a half a vehicle parking spot a mile- or a two-mile-long ride, which is lower than it costs per unit. At this point, you could put up a 500-unit building to hop on the bus and, obviously, infnitely more convenient in San Francisco and not install any parking, which is viewed to just have somebody pick you up rather than wait for a bus as good, because parking ofen…. and walk, and so on and so forth. I can give a couple of examples: (1) it drives up the cost I think the other question that’s uncertain about pricing of every unit individually, but (2) there’s a…. For example, is to what degree the current prices are sustainable. Presum- there’s a building right next to where we…. Our ofce is ably, they are…. I mean, there have been various estimates in what we call the Twitter zone. It was this area that was about how much is VC-funded. It’s not my area of expert- an economic redevelopment zone, essentially, where Twitter ise, but sufce to say, the true cost is not being refected in and Dolby…. We’re in the same building as Uber, which the price. If those true costs were refected, would we see the makes things slightly uncomfortable, Square and all of these same uptake in demand? I don’t know. So that’s a very tricky tech frms. Tere are these huge buildings that are going up question to answer. there. Tey built parking before this zero minimum, and a I’m not familiar with the big ball of the kind of public bunch of the parking is just vacant. It’s not actually being convenience and necessity regime. If I understood that, that used. So that does suggest that there’s a diferent kind of con- was about needing to make the case — is that right? — to sumption of parking that’s happened in the past, and we’re get a taxi licence. Again, in San Francisco we have not had not requiring parking. that experience because TNCs have largely…. If you want to Tere’s another aspect of parking, which is what I’ll refer drive for a TNC, you largely sign up and do a basic back- to as on-street or curb management. In San Francisco, we’re ground check and essentially you can start rolling. doing a couple of things around that right now. One is look- Prices and fares. As I mentioned earlier, we fx those for ing at how we award residential permit parking, because that taxis. Tey’re entirely unfxed for TNCs. I don’t know what makes it very cheap for people to drive around the city, if it would look like if those prices were fxed or if they were they’re not paying for parking. aligned with taxis. In my experience, as a user of both TNCs Te other is repurposing curb space. Essentially, a car and taxis in San Francisco, I would say TNCs are typically that’s parked at a curb, static for two or four or eight hours about 65 percent, 70 percent of the cost of a taxi, so signifc- a day, is maybe not the most productive use of that curb. antly cheaper. In the transportation forecasting realm, which A TNC or maybe even transit — you know, another use — is my background, we say there are only two things that could be making use of that curb space. So we’re considering really matter, time and cost. Tey’re basically interchange- it in that way. able, so when you have something that’s discounted 30 per- People very quickly spin of into the hypothetical future. cent, the demand is going to go up for that. Again, one of the things that I hope you take away from this [3:20 p.m.] presentation is that in San Francisco, we have this eight years Ten with respect to licensing, I think this is probably the of experience. We don’t need to just hypothesize about what area where there are the most examples that you can fnd. I might happen. We actually have information about what is would recommend, if you have time, to take a look at that happening and what has happened. regulatory framework report, because it does document not When it comes to what the future looks like with respect just how we’re doing stuf in California but across the United to AVs and TNCs — if they become even more widespread States. It does address things like licensing. and whether we’ll need as much parking — I think it’s an open question. Tere has been everything from the utopian B. Ma (Chair): Interesting. Tank you so much. visions where we’ll have wider sidewalks and no need for Any other questions from committee members? parking at all to more dystopian visions where academic researchers will say, “Well, people aren’t going to want to J. Sturdy: Just a quick one. I wondered if you’d done any park their car and pay for it,” so they’re just going to drive work on parking and parking requirements and the amount around really slowly and consume that road space. You may of land that is dedicated to parking. And are you going to be end up with worse congestion without parking. So it’s an amending that as time goes forward? open question. Hopefully, we’ll live to see what the answer to it is. J. Castiglione: Well, that’s an interesting question, because one of the things that people ofen talk about, as well, with B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. 246 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

Any other members? what the decision-makers in San Francisco identify as our All right. I have a few questions for you before we let you core values. go. I know we’ve held you quite long here. Tank you so much for your patience. B. Ma (Chair): Te work of the committee’s research team Can you confrm that in San Francisco, the drivers’ already will include going through the submissions that licences required for TNC drivers and taxi drivers are dif- we’ve received and compiling that information. Would com- ferent — that taxi drivers require commercial licences, and mittee members be comfortable also including those two TNC drivers do not? documents from the San Francisco County Transportation Authority in that exercise as well? Yes? Any concerns? J. Castiglione: Tat is my understanding, but please don’t All right. Susan, can we have that done? Tank you so quote me on that, because that is not the focus of my expert- much. ise. But the regulatory landscape paper that I refer to does My last question for you…. Again, I recognize that you answer that question specifcally. might not have direct answers but based on your experience. Tere’s been a lot of discussion about how to manage con- B. Ma (Chair): In terms of that regulatory framework gestion. Some of the ideas or strategies that have been dis- paper, does it provide recommendations? Or is it kind of like cussed, either positively or negatively, have included apply- a compilation of existing regulations? ing vehicle caps or licence caps for TNCs, similar to the way taxis are, or per-kilometre fees or per-trip fees depending on J. Castiglione: It’s more an inventory of existing regula- geographic areas and time of day and so forth in order to tions, again, in San Francisco, in California and across the incentivize certain times of day and geographic areas during country. I don’t recall whether it includes at the end some which and within which we want TNCs to operate, and dis- recommendations. incentivizing other areas. For the most part, we have tried to remain relatively silent Based on your experience, do you have any comments on on recommendations, in part because we want to provide, any of these strategies? frst and foremost, information to our board and then solicit from them guidance on what we should then look into next. J. Castiglione: I would just echo what I mentioned a few minutes ago, which is that I think we do recognize the need B. Ma (Chair): Does the report identify challenges that to look at some of these strategies. We have a bunch of what have been experienced in the frameworks? I’ll put in the bin of pricing and incentives projects right now — or research studies. J. Castiglione: Absolutely. Yes. First and foremost is the congestion pricing work. Tat’s very much going to be looking at the very things that you’ve B. Ma (Chair): Tey do? identifed. For example, in some of the original congestion pricing work we did, people could pay a one-time fee to J. Castiglione: Yes, yes. enter the core, and then they could come and go as they [3:25 p.m.] pleased. Tat probably doesn’t make sense in the context of TNCs that are carrying multiple passengers. So we are very B. Ma (Chair): Oh, fantastic. I’d like to maybe suggest to much looking at congestion pricing in all of the various fa- members of the committee that we include that report as vours and incarnations that that can take. part of the committee’s research, the work that the research We’re also looking at other pricing strategies like managed team is doing — if there are any issues and components of lanes on freeways. Tat doesn’t necessarily speak to the the report that are relevant to our four questions. TNCs quite as much, because I think the vast majority of the TNC usage is surface arterials. But in a sense, that actually, J. Castiglione: Yeah. I think it’s a useful compendium of I think, really aligns with the transportation infrastructure what the landscape was in San Francisco a year or so ago — that you have here in Vancouver with respect to the reliance and across the country. Te other report that I referred to, on major arterials as the primary thoroughfares throughout Emerging Mobility, I think also might be of interest to you. It the city. talks a little bit more about the principles. So yes, we are doing and are going to be interested in pur- Tere are these ten principles that the city has established suing all of these kinds of options. I don’t think there are any around all mobility options, as I mentioned before: safety, prospects of vehicle caps. Tat would require a rather signi- equity, so on and so forth. Tat report looks not just at TNCs fcant change at the state level, and I don’t think there’s the but all of the kind of emerging mobilities. Where possible, appetite for that. we provide some kind of quantitative assessment of how I think one thing that I would say, and I would ofer this aligned the services are with these principles. as a concluding comment, is that the story of TNCs and, It does feel like, for lack of a better word, there’s a values really, the story of any kind of urban transportation these basis around any kind of regulatory regime. Tis refects days is very context-specifc. Tere is no one-size-fts-all. It’s Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 247

not that the impacts are bad universally everywhere. It’s not issues that I know you’re considering. I’ll be glad to answer that the benefts are great universally everywhere. Tere are any questions at the end of the presentation. benefts and costs depending on when and where. I think Lyf frst launched in 2012, based upon an idea that was any kind of policy response should refect the fact that there’s both simple yet audacious. What if we could allow people to that kind of nuance. leverage one of their most expensive assets, their cars, to give While a vehicle cap might be useful in San Francisco — rides to their neighbours in their spare time? I’m not saying it is — maybe in other parts of the state that It would allow people to actually make money from their don’t have as rich or mature TNC markets it doesn’t make car, rather than just putting money into it. It would open sense to have a cap on anything. Perhaps those areas should up transportation options for people who historically had grow out more. So I think any kind of policy prescription or not had great options if they didn’t live in or near a down- regulatory regime should allow for the context sensitivity of town area. And it would allow people to forgo car ownership, diferent types of policies. which costs Canadians, on average, $13,000 per year, with [3:30 p.m.] the confdence that they could still get where they want when they want. B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. Really grateful for For example, in cities like Seattle and Portland, about 30 your time today, for coming up here again and for allowing percent of Lyf riders do not own cars. In Toronto, 63 percent us to go over time. of Lyf users do not own or lease a personal vehicle. And 68 percent of non–car owners say Lyf has impacted their J. Castiglione: It’s my pleasure. It’s an honour to have a decision to not own or lease a personal vehicle. People chance to speak to you all. Tank you. thought the idea of ride-sharing was crazy. But since 2012, Lyf has provided over one billion rides. B. Ma (Chair): My apologies to committee members. We [3:35 p.m.] are 15 minutes over time. We’ve eaten up the surplus, and We’re now helping 23 million passengers get to their des- then I gave it a little more. tinations each year, and we’re giving 1.5 million drivers each Our next presentation is Mr. Joseph Okpaku from Lyf. year an opportunity to earn income in their spare time. You’re probably ready because you’ve been waiting for a few We’ve signifcantly reduced instances of impaired driving, minutes. Tank you so much for joining us today. allowed people to get to and from work easily, or to and from Now, the format’s very simple. I will set a timer for 25 school, and we’ve helped people get to public transit options minutes. We’ll ask for your comments to be, as much as pos- by providing a frst-mile, last-mile solution. sible, focused on the four questions that we have before us. In addition, since last spring, all Lyf rides have been car- Tis committee only has the mandate to look at those four bon-neutral, and Lyf is now a fully carbon-neutral company. questions. I’ll set a timer for you — 25 minutes. Following Last year, we made a multi-million-dollar investment to cre- that, there’ll be 20 minutes of questions. Do you have any ate a program to ofset over one million metric tonnes of car- questions before we proceed? bon. We’ve purchased enough renewable energy to cover the electricity consumption of every Lyf ofce space, every Lyf J. Okpaku: I don’t believe so. driver hub and every electric vehicle mile on our platform. We are now one of the top ten voluntary purchasers of car- B. Ma (Chair): You’re ready to proceed? bon ofsets on the planet, and every ride now contributes to fghting climate change. J. Okpaku: I am. I do have one question. With respect to Lyf has demonstrated its commitment to the community the time, is there anything visual that will…? in other ways, including our Round Up and Donate pro- gram. Tis program allows passengers to pick a cause of their B. Ma (Chair): Yes, my timer here. I’ll turn it towards you. choice and have their fares automatically rounded up to the nearest dollar. In just over a year and a half, Lyf passengers LYFT have rounded up 20 million rides to donate over $10 mil- lion U.S. to charitable causes, such as fghting homelessness, J. Okpaku: Good afernoon, Chair, Deputy Chair and helping natural disaster victims and providing aid to can- members of the committee. My name is Joseph Okpaku, and cer patients. In Toronto, Lyf passengers have donated to the I am the vice-president of policy at Lyf. Tank you for the SickKids Foundation, and we hope to bring Round Up and opportunity to work together to develop a regulatory frame- Donate to B.C. soon. work that would allow Lyf to operate in the province. While we are not yet operating here, it is important for us I’d like to tell you a little about Lyf’s history, mission and to get a better understanding of the communities in which the many ways we believe Lyf will beneft the residents of we operate. One of the ways we do this is to support organ- British Columbia. It’s my belief that going over this back- izations that align with our values. To this end, in 2018, we ground will help this committee get guidance on the four became an ofcial sponsor of Vancouver Pride, a relation- ship we hope to continue. In this way, Lyf has become much 248 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 more than a bold idea. Every day, we are delivering on our In fact, 96 percent of Lyf drivers say that they drive for mission to improve people’s lives with the world’s best trans- Lyf because having the fexibility to choose when they drive portation and to make our cities more liveable. is extremely important. And 79 percent of them schedule I’d like to take a moment to quickly walk through how the driving around jobs, classes, child care and other activities. app works. You start by simply opening it up on your phone Passengers also greatly beneft from having Lyf in their and typing in your desired destination. A few ride options communities, perhaps in more ways than you might think. It will appear, the most common of which are a classic Lyf or may come as a surprise that the single most important factor a shared Lyf. All prices are displayed up front so riders can in upward economic mobility isn’t education; it isn’t housing. make the best choice for their money and time. It’s transportation. More specifcally, it is access to transport- Let’s say you choose a classic ride, our traditional Lyf ride. ation and commute time. Within minutes, you’ll be matched with a carefully screened Both Harvard University and New York University have driver. Your phone will display your driver’s name and pic- reached this conclusion. It makes sense. If you can’t aford ture; the car make, model and licence plate; along with an a car, public transportation becomes critically important to ETA for pickup at your current location. You can even watch, your economic survival, but a by-product of our infrastruc- as your driver approaches, on a map and call your driver ture crisis is that transit doesn’t serve every neighbourhood if something changes, like if it starts to rain and you want equally. It also doesn’t run with the same frequency for to head down the block to take cover. When your driver people who are working overnight shifs as it does for people arrives, you confrm your name and destination, you get in, who work during the day. Tis is why there has been such and you’re of. high demand for Lyf in underserved communities. In fact, Your screen will map the way to your destination, as well 44 percent of all Lyf rides start or end in low-income neigh- as your ETA. You can also share your route with friends or bourhoods. family directly through the Lyf app. Simply tap “share route” Lyf isn’t just helping people get from point A to point B; from the menu of your screen, and your friend or family Lyf is helping people get to work. Lyf is giving people back member can track your trip and your progress in real time. time to go to a kid’s hockey game or a piano recital. Lyf is Once you’ve reached your destination, you’ll receive a ride helping people everywhere get home to their families. summary email that recaps all the trip details. Public transit is vitally important to our cities, and from You’ll also be prompted to rate your driver on a scale of the moment that Lyf launched, we worked to complement one to fve stars. Tis is where you can also note anything public transit. Here in Metro Vancouver, we’re looking for- that he or she did exceptionally well or if there are areas for ward to working closely with TransLink, and we share their improvement. commitment to improving the passenger experience. Tis rating system is an important tool for safety. Rides Many of our riders are also transit riders. In fact, over with low ratings and concerning feedback are automatically 20 percent of our passengers say that they use public transit fagged for our trust and safety team to investigate and take more because of Lyf, and we now have dozens of partner- action, which may include instant removal from the plat- ships with public transit agencies. Some of these partner- form, if appropriate. If a safety-related complaint is lodged ships are frst mile, last mile, while others have allowed us following the ride, we will deactivate the driver so that he to replace underperforming bus routes so that public transit or she is not able to give any more rides until afer we’ve funding can be reinvested into routes with higher demand. investigated the complaint. Tis is a new level of responsive- As an example, one of our most innovative partnerships is ness, accountability and transparency that has never previ- GoMonrovia, which we designed and implemented in part- ously existed in the transportation industry. nership with the city of Monrovia in southern California. Te benefts that the Lyf platform has provided millions Monrovia’s suburban land use pattern made it difcult to of drivers to date are obvious, but I’d still like to take a operate a traditional public transit service. Prior to our part- moment to go over them. Since Lyf’s launch in 2012, Lyf nership, the main mode of public transportation was a dial- drivers have earned $10 billion U.S., and we’re not talking a-ride shuttle bus that cost the city about $1 million U.S. a about people doing this as a full-time way of making a living. year to provide fewer than 100 rides per day. In fact, 91 percent of Lyf drivers drive 20 hours a week or Trough the GoMonrovia program, the city replaced that less, so Lyf is allowing people to make money in their spare dial-a-ride program with subsidized ride-share trips pro- time on their own schedule. vided by Lyf. Passengers pay no more for a ride than they Our community of drivers includes parents, seniors, col- would for a normal bus or rail fare. As a result of this part- lege students, teachers during summer breaks — anyone nership, Monrovia has seen ridership ramp up tremen- looking for a fexible opportunity to make extra income on dously. Whereas the former program facilitated 30,000 rides the side. In places like Los Angeles, aspiring actors are driv- annually, a similar amount of funding has allowed Lyf to ing for Lyf because they can go to an audition whenever provide over 30,000 rides per month, with over 12 percent of they want. In Nashville, Tennessee, there are numerous Lyf them connecting with the Los Angeles rail system. drivers who are musicians who drive for Lyf between gigs. Te GoMonrovia program provides not only a frst-mile, [3:40 p.m.] last-mile connection to the train station but also access to Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 249 bike-share and eventually, we hope, scooters. We have imple- and in the U.S. drive less than 20 hours per week, which is mented elements of this program in cities across the U.S., but why reducing barriers to entry is critical to reaping the bene- GoMonrovia is a great proof-of-concept for the full mobility fts of ride-share. package. Without regulations that recognize this need for fexibil- Research shows that our passengers are more multimodal ity, British Columbia will not experience the benefts of ride- than the general population. According to our 2019 econom- sharing. I’d like to show you why by explaining a little bit ic impact report released this month, 46 percent of all Lyf more about how drivers get approved to drive in the Lyf riders use public transit at least once a week. In Toronto, that platform. It is our hope that when you understand how seri- fgure is 83 percent. I’d like to say that again: 83 percent of ously we take safety and how we’re able to provide a safe plat- Lyf riders in Toronto use public transit weekly, at a minim- form for both drivers and passengers, you’ll agree with our um. Tis is why our transit partnerships are so fruitful and suggestions for a regulatory framework that ensures fexibil- why we continue to create more. ity without sacrifcing safety. We’ve recently launched a new feature that defnitively In the U.S., we’ve developed a streamlined process for get- demonstrates our commitment to complementing public ting people who want to drive up and running on the plat- transit. Currently, our new Nearby Transit feature allows form. Lyf drivers are extensively prescreened and have to Lyf users in four major U.S. cities to see real-time public pass a thorough driver record review. In Canada, Lyf con- transit routes and schedules directly within the Lyf app. We tracts with a company called Sterling Talent Solutions, an recently debuted the feature in Seattle, where Lyf users can international provider used by 25 percent of Fortune 100 seamlessly use Lyf or use the bus, light rail or ferry to get to companies and numerous municipalities, to conduct driver where they’re going. background checks annually. Prospective drivers pay noth- Tis allows prospective riders to choose the most aford- ing for this background check, and they don’t need to spend able and fexible trip that works for them, even if that means precious hours in line at a government agency ofce. In fact, not taking a Lyf. In other words, we are literally encouraging in the U.S., ride-share drivers pay zero upfront costs to get riders to not use Lyf when there’s a public transit option onto the Lyf platform. nearby. We hope to be able to ofer this feature in Vancouver. We urge British Columbia to adopt a regulatory frame- Te past six years provide great insight into the behavi- work that requires these background checks, so that a uni- oural shifs that are possible with widespread adoption of form standard for safety across B.C. can be established. We ride-sharing services. People are moving away from owning also seek regulations that enhance safety by requiring com- cars and gravitating towards public transit and other safe and panies like Lyf to utilize technology that provides con- responsible transportation habits. sumers with new transparency and accountability features. [3:45 p.m.] In addition to robust background checks, every ride Perhaps the most quantifable beneft Lyf has provided should be required to be tracked by GPS, as Lyf currently cities is a reduction in impaired driving. Lyf is most active does, and all rides should be required to be cashless. It during times when drinking is common. Fify percent of all should be required that before any ride, passengers receive Lyf pickups and drop-ofs in Seattle and Portland happen their driver’s picture and name, the make and model of the between 8 p.m. and 4 a.m. in retail areas that ofer bars, res- vehicle and the licence plate number before they enter the taurants and other nighttime destinations. In Toronto, 58 vehicle. Companies should be required to provide both the percent of Lyf riders are less likely to drive while impaired, driver and the passenger an opportunity to rate each other due to the availability of Lyf. Because of Lyf, people are afer the ride. making the intentional and conscious decision to not drive Tese built-in features and our background check process while intoxicated. Tis past New Year’s Eve we provided help us maintain extremely high safety standards and still almost 4,000 rides every minute. allow part-time drivers to join the platform without unne- In Miami-Dade County, which has the largest police cessary barriers. It is our hope that B.C. will agree with an department in the southeastern United States, it was recently approach that has allowed for millions of safe, afordable announced that there has been a 65 percent decline in rides to be completed in the U.S. and Ontario. impaired driving arrests in 2017 compared to the four years Tis brings me to licensing. We ask you to consider the prior. Other U.S. cities and states are seeing similar declines. model that currently applies in Saskatchewan. In that In Philadelphia, drunk-driving arrests have decreased by 17 province, Lyf drivers must possess a class 5 licence. In addi- percent since ride-sharing was frst introduced. Te state of tion, they must not be in the graduated licensing program Georgia has seen a total decline of 16 percent since ride- for novice drivers. Tey must have two years post-gradu- sharing arrived. Keeping impaired drivers of the road is an ated-licensing-program driving experience in Canada or in immense public safety beneft that we’d like to bring here to a jurisdiction with equivalent licensing requirements. Tey British Columbia. must not have been suspended or disqualifed in the pre- Now, the key to unlocking all of these benefts of ride- vious ten years, and they must not have accumulated more sharing is having a critical mass of part-time drivers. As I’ve than 12 demerit points in the past two years. mentioned before, 91 percent of all Lyf drivers in Canada At the risk of repeating myself, the ability to allow pro- 250 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 spective drivers to gain access to the platform without unne- night ride when demand is high pays a driver barely more cessary barriers and without compromising safety is the key than an of-peak ride at 11 a.m., it will not be appealing to the success of Lyf. Since drivers are only planning on for drivers to make themselves available for those late-night driving a few hours a week, it must be convenient for qual- rides. ifed drivers to sign up. Onerous requirements with no cor- Tis is a long way of saying that dynamic pricing keeps the responding safety beneft will only serve to be a barrier to market healthy. It’s an equity tool to ensure reliable service entry that prevents B.C. from unlocking the benefts of peer- in areas or time periods of lower demand. Dynamic pricing to-peer ride-sharing. Tis goes back to the goal of critical also serves as a signifcant safety tool in that it encourages mass. With more unnecessary hurdles, there’ll be fewer more drivers to be on the Lyf platform on weekends, late at drivers, and the more unreliable Lyf becomes. night or on holidays, when people are out drinking and need [3:50 p.m.] a ride home. Before I close, I’d like to address a few proposed require- Moreover, the proposals regarding vehicle caps, geograph- ments that would severely diminish ride-sharing as a trans- ic boundaries and price controls would prevent the wide- portation solution for British Columbia. Troughout this spread individual economic benefts and increased mobility process, geographic boundaries on where Lyf can operate, that ride-share delivers. a cap on the number of Lyf vehicles in operation and price We recently commissioned a study to examine the poten- controls on passenger fares have been discussed as measures tial economic impact in British Columbia if Lyf were able for levelling the playing feld. But in practice, these restric- to operate here. Here’s what it showed for Vancouver and tions would do the opposite. Victoria: $47 million in estimated annual new spending by Let’s frst discuss geographic boundaries. Kevin Desmond Lyf passengers at local businesses, $37 million in estimated of TransLink emphasized yesterday that boundaries should annual driver earnings from Lyf rides and $37.5 million in refect actual travel and mobility patterns, not simply muni- estimated value of time saved by Lyf passengers. cipal jurisdictions. Lyf aims to give all residents in all neigh- Furthermore, our 2019 economic impact report for bourhoods a convenient and afordable ride. Tat doesn’t Toronto found local spending increased by $25.9 million due just mean downtown Vancouver or bustling commercial to the availability of Lyf. Te combined value of time and centres. We encourage drivers to ofer their services in all travel cost savings as a result of Lyf was $45.4 million. neighbourhoods, including areas that are traditionally Like regions across North America, British Columbia underserved. demands a new solution to old transportation problems. Ofentimes we see high demand in neighbourhoods Nobody knows this better than the residents themselves. In poorly served by existing transportation options like taxis fact, according to a recent poll, six in ten residents want and public transit. For example, passengers who want to Lyf available in the province as soon as possible, eight in get from Sooke to work in Victoria are ofen lef without ten want Lyf to operate by the end of the year at the latest any reliable or efcient modes of transportation to do so. and nearly eight in ten also expect to have the same service Restricting Lyf with arbitrary boundaries will only cause they’ve experienced in places like Seattle and Toronto. already transit-poor residents to sufer more. We urge you to make this happen by prioritizing regu- Furthermore, geographic boundaries are part of why taxis lations that can allow British Columbia to experience the have to drive back empty afer dropping of passengers in many benefts of ride-sharing that have been enjoyed for diferent jurisdictions — which is a waste of time, gas and years in the U.S. and Ontario. kilometres travelled — and lead to frustrated passengers. If Tank you very much for your time. I’d be glad to answer geographic boundaries are arbitrarily imposed on ride-shar- any questions that you might have. ing, we may continue to see those same frustrations from passengers who simply want to get to their destination. B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. We’ll begin with Ms. Vehicle caps present a similar challenge in that they would Singh. prevent Lyf from meeting demand where it is. In fact, caps would incentivize drivers to look for fares in the most con- R. Singh: Tank you for your presentation. You really gested parts of the city, whether the demand for a service emphasized the fexibility, and that’s also one of the reasons exists there or not. Tis means high ETAs and high fares for that you are advocating for a class 5 licence. people in outlying neighbourhoods. [3:55 p.m.] Te compound efect of geographic boundaries and caps My question would be: the person who’s transporting would make Lyf unreliable, which means more people will people, how can we just say because they want fexibility…? return to driving themselves home afer a night out at a bar. Tey’re working for fexible hours. Why should it be difer- Lastly, let’s talk about price controls. Price caps make it ent for a taxi driver and a person who’s just driving for two difcult to achieve a critical mass of drivers at peak times. hours? Te safety is a concern. Tey’re both transporting Tis is because they disable the kind of up-and-down pricing consumers. fexibility that is needed to incentivize drivers to ofer their service when riders are willing to pay more for it. If a late- Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 251

J. Okpaku: Of course. It’s a great question. It’s really two same safety goals but maybe a little bit diferently than we’re separate things, so I’ll address it in two separate parts. accustomed to doing it. And that’s what we think we’ve done We strongly believe that safety, as I said before in my in the U.S. and Ontario. presentation, is one of the strong points about Lyf, because safety is more than just the licensing that someone goes J. Johal: Tank you for your presentation. I appreciate through to get onto the platform. Safety is the ability to make some of the concerns you’ve raised. sure that you know who you’re with and if, for some reason, It’s a very simple question, actually. If we brought in class you don’t have a pen and paper on you, you’re able to easily 4 licensing, if we brought in geofencing and if we brought in fgure out who you are being transported by. limits on vehicles, would you enter this market? Safety is also making sure that there is no such thing, as I said before, as an anonymous ride where someone with J. Okpaku: We’ve never entered a market with all of those a Lyf platform…. Each ride is being tracked by GPS and, things in place. Te decision whether to enter a market or again, as I mentioned before, you can share your ride, your not is slightly above my pay grade, but I would say it would route, with somebody else. make it extremely difcult for us to enter this market. I think it’s important for this panel to look at safety hol- istically and realize that, if you’ll excuse the saying from the J. Johal: Okay. One of the other issues we’ve been talking U.S., there’s more than one way to skin a cat. So looking about broadly…. Tere have been issues about minimum at safety holistically, with all the measures that we’ve put wage, employment standards, the gig economy. First of all, into place with respect to accountability, to transparency and do you view yourself as an employer, and two, is there any whatnot, we do strongly believe that safety is not at issue and jurisdiction that you operate in where you are expected to that the fve or six years that Lyf has operated have clearly meet a minimum wage or a minimum threshold? demonstrated that. I’m just curious. Tat’s a broader conversation that we’re Now, with respect to the diference between taxis and having as legislators just simply because there are many oth- ride-sharing, I don’t have numbers about this for British Col- er industries that are being disrupted. So (1) do you view umbia specifcally, but historically, taxi driving has been a yourself as an employer, a traditional employer, and (2) have full-time occupation. And so it makes sense that people are you had to meet minimum wage standards, whatever that more willing to go through more bureaucratic hoops and may be in the jurisdiction? jump those hurdles for a full-time occupation than they are [4:00 p.m.] for a part-time occupation. So that’s why Lyf had to come up with a system that still prioritized safety but did so in a J. Okpaku: Sure. It’s a great question. Te answer to the way that did not cost the driver to get onto the platform and frst question is no. To elaborate on that a little bit more, did not put undue burdens on the driver to get onto the plat- independent studies and surveys have shown that — for the form. reasons I’ve mentioned before — because drivers value the Broadening the scope of your question a little bit, we’ve fexibility and like doing this in their spare time, the majority never once…. We’ve testifed at hearings like this all across of drivers in the U.S. do not want to be treated as an employ- the U.S. and in Canada at least hundreds, probably thou- ee. Tey don’t want to have to be scheduled for particular sands, of times. Tis is not exactly the question that you shifs. asked, but I would say that in terms of the comparison In fact, I believe around 81 percent of drivers in the U.S. between taxis and ride-sharing, whatever regulations make either have a full-time job or are currently looking for a full- sense for the taxi industry, whatever the regulatory or legis- time job. Tey view Lyf, as I’ve said before, as a way to kind lative body, they should adopt that. We’ve never once, in of fll in the income gaps or to get through a short period of those hundreds or thousands of hearings, ever weighed in on time in which they may not have full-time employment. So what makes sense for the taxi industry. the employment model is really a model that the majority of We do strongly believe that if you regulate Lyf like a taxi, drivers do not even want in the U.S. or in Ontario. you’re going to get a taxi. Te benefts that have come with To your second question, the answer is one market, with a ride-sharing that taxis have not been able to ofer, servi- very large caveat. I know that New York City has come up a cing areas that are underserved by public transit or that are, couple of times in the course of this panel’s deliberation, but frankly, underserved by taxis…. it’s really important to recognize that New York City does not In the U.S., there is, frankly, a bit of a racial component have ride-sharing as we’re discussing it. I just want to make to this. Tere are a lot of communities of colour that have sure that everyone’s really clear on this. historically been underserved by taxis, and Lyf has provided Yes, Lyf operates in New York City, but Lyf operates in a huge boon to those people who historically have not been New York City as what is essentially called a black car, which able to get from their homes in the neighbourhoods that is similar to any other vehicle. Tat’s a market where the they live to where they need to go. So if we’re really focused vast majority of Lyf drivers are full-time drivers. Tey are on trying to bring those benefts here to British Columbia, more willing to go through the regulatory hurdles, to pro- we do need to see if we can fnd a way to accomplish those cure their own personal commercial insurance, to pay the 252 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019 licensing fees, because they do view this as full-time employ- in the details. I would probably need to know a little bit more ment. about it before we could ofer an opinion about it. It is clearly Tat is the one exception to the rule, and to the extent that better than a fve-day training process, but without knowing New York City has been mentioned here before, again, it’s more about it, it’s hard to ofer a really defnitive opinion on really important to recognize that in New York City, there is it. no such thing as peer-to-peer ride-sharing. S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): I’ve got two sort of separate J. Johal: Do you have any caps on vehicles in other juris- questions. One thing that came up at least once this go- dictions? round…. I’m kind of now unsure where I’ve heard it, wheth- er it was this go-round here or whether it was the last time J. Okpaku: Again, the only place that has recently con- we were meeting. Something came up as it relates to drivers sidered that would be New York City. Everywhere else we and their ability to drive, and whether or not they’re employ- operate throughout the country or in Ontario, there are no ees and such again, in that companies like Lyf, like Uber, are caps. “fring” drivers if they don’t do a certain number of hours or Again, at the risk of repeating myself, which apparently shifs or perhaps because they got a low rating. I’m doing a lot…. First of all, the context for the number [4:05 p.m.] of vehicles on a ride-sharing platform is a little bit mislead- Now, arguably, a company is going to want its represent- ing, because the natural inclination is to compare this to atives, whether they are contractors or employees, to be the what we’re used to, which is a taxi regime. So you’re think- best they can be, and should have some autonomy to deter- ing about this in terms of how many vehicles are doing this mine who is working for them. However — without justifc- full-time. But a vehicle can be “on the platform” for literally ation or cause or whatever. How does that work for Lyf with one ride a day, and then that person is driving themselves to drivers? work or to school or home. I can see the safety suspension makes sense, right? You To answer your question more directly, except for New look into it, see if there was any problem or if it was just York City, where ride-sharing does not exist, no, there are no somebody who was ticked of or hit it accidentally. Who places where caps have been imposed on ride-sharing. knows? But what is the process for determining whether or not a driver stays with the company, and are there any min- J. Johal: My fnal question. You talked about your drivers imums in terms of how ofen a driver would sign on? logging on, the background checks and all that sort of thing. Tis morning we had someone from the Justice Institute J. Okpaku: Sure, it’s a great question. Te frst part of talking about training programs for taxis. I think it was three your question — we never ofoard anybody because they’re or four days or fve days. Tey’re talking about an on-line inactive. Te only exception to that — and this is, again, course for Lyf and for other ride-hailing TNCs. using the United States as an example — is if you have failed One, do you do similar on-line courses in other jurisdic- to update your insurance between rides, and by the time tions, and two, I guess, is four hours enough? I mean, the you try to get back on the platform, your insurance is not question I think the other side has been talking about to a updated or your drivers licence is not updated. Ten we certain degree is: why are we doing a week and the on-line would prevent you from driving until you fx that. But aside folks are only doing four hours, potentially? Your response from that, you can give one ride today and not drive until, to that? you know, a year from now. Assuming that you still are maintaining a clean criminal background and a clear driving J. Okpaku: I did hear the testimony earlier today. It was record, you’re still able to get back onto the platform. a bit of a surprise to us, frankly, because it was the frst we Te second situation that you raised…. Tere are, kind had heard about it. Without knowing more about what that of, two broad components to that. Using the rating system, potential program would entail, it’s kind of hard to really if someone is consistently getting low ratings, then yes, that ofer an opinion about it. person may be at risk of being ofoarded. Now, before that Generally speaking, there does not exist a jurisdiction happens, we will reach out to that driver and tell that person: which requires the type of training that I believe is the type “Hey, listen. You keep getting these ratings. You may want they are contemplating. We do ofer videos on our own to….” If there is specifc feedback that we can give…. “Here’s about the way to be the best Lyf driver that you can. But in what some of the ratings have noted. Your car smells like terms of government-required on-line training, it is a very cigarettes, so you should probably stop that” or whatever the rare occurrence. Tere may be one or two markets in the U.S. case may be. If they are repeatedly getting low ratings — and that do that. this is separate from safety — then they may be at risk of being ofoarded. J. Johal: Are you opposed to that? Te other category, though, is safety. If there is a signifc- ant safety incident that we can confrm through an invest- J. Okpaku: Again, it kind of depends on the…. Te devil’s igation, then yes, we might ofoard a driver immediately. Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 253

If, for some reason, a driver is alleged to have been driving about our users’ data and make sure that we are protecting under the infuence and we were able to investigate that and all of the data, because it can show sensitive information. corroborate that, then yes, we will prevent that driver from We’re still working to strike the appropriate balance to being on the platform. make sure that cities and planners can get what they need — hence, the recent partnership I mentioned — but doing S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): My second question is so in a way that protects our users. I can see that there are around data sharing. Tere’s been a lot of conversation about some that may wish that we provided a little bit more, and data and the importance of data in driving good decisions. we understand that, but we are working to try to fnd a good Certainly, government loves data, and some of us love data. middle ground where we can help planners get the sort of Certainly, some of the presenters have loved data — most of data that they need to make informed decisions. them academic. Te insinuation is made that companies are very appre- S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Tank you very much. hensive to share any of that data. So you sort of get these competing claims about congestion or peak-period drivers R. Kahlon: Tank you for your presentation. In New York versus non-peak-period, etc. When are people using this, City, they’ve got caps. You said you don’t operate there as a and when are they not? We’re getting competing perspectives ride-share. Do you operate there as a taxi? on that and competing lobs across the foor in terms of who is providing what — accurate or inaccurate data. J. Okpaku: Well, technically we were considered a black It would seem that it would be in the best interests of com- car. It’s not a yellow taxi. I’m not sure if you’ve been to New panies to provide data — obviously within reason, de-iden- York, but if you’ve taken a Carmel…. Technically, that’s the tifed and so forth. Is Lyf sharing data readily with jurisdic- category we fell into. tions that want that data, or is that a major problem from the company’s perspective? R. Kahlon: So the business model would be a taxi model?

J. Okpaku: It’s another great question. In the majority of J. Okpaku: I’m just trying to be technically accurate. In markets where Lyf is regulated, Lyf generally shares data New York, technically, it’s not a taxi. with the regulatory agency that oversees it. Tis can span from safety reports to just ride patterns. It may vary from R. Kahlon: So you go and you pick somebody up. Tat market to market. person is an employee. Tey work for you. Tey’ve got their More recently we have struck an agreement with a pro- own car kind of thing? How does it work? gram called SharedStreets where we are sharing more robust data so that city planners and transportation experts can J. Okpaku: Not an employee. Te majority, if not all — have access to aggregated data to kind of see what the trafc whether taxis or black car drivers in New York City — are all patterns are and how ride-sharing plays a role in it. independent contractors. So they’re not an employee. Tat’s Ofen, where some of the, I guess, disagreements over data historically true across the country, whether it’s taxis or any have arisen kind of fall into maybe one of two or maybe three other form of for-hire vehicle transportation. categories. I’ll use California as an example. We are regulated by the state in California. In a recent proceeding, numerous R. Kahlon: I am just trying to understand. You said you cities, including San Francisco and San Diego, were request- operate in New York City but not as a ride-share. Can you ing a lot more granular data. In fact, one of the requests from explain what the diference would be in the way that you one of the cities wanted to see a real-time portal into Lyf operate? rides. [4:10 p.m.] J. Okpaku: It’s still an app, and you can still request the Now, while I can understand, to an extent, the beneft of app, but the drivers are licensed by the Taxi and Limousine that type of data, we do believe that that need can be met by Commission. It is the only place in the world where we oper- aggregated trip data. Te concern on the fip side is the fact ate a non-peer-to-peer ride-sharing model. You have to have that we’re talking about data which is showing where people a commercial plate and procure your own commercial insur- are going. We’re talking about data which is showing where ance, which basically adds a zero to the end of your annual people live. Again, Lyf drivers don’t start their day at work insurance bill. Te reason that drivers are willing to do that from a depot. Tey start their day from work at home. in New York is because they do this as a full-time way of In a recent hearing, in front of the U.S. Senate, I believe, making money. But that is the exception to the rule of ride- the Federal Trade Commission actually commented on this sharing throughout the U.S. and throughout Canada. very fact. Tey said that this is the type of data that should be treated the most sensitively because it could show which R. Kahlon: So everyone on that is full-time. Tere are no church you’re going to, or if you’re going to a mosque, or if part-time people? you’re going to an HIV clinic. We do want to be very careful 254 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

J. Okpaku: I’m sure there are some people who drive a that you gave, but maybe you could just provide a little bit of little bit less than full-time, but the costs make it fairly pro- insight into that. hibitive, in the New York system, to drive just on a part-time basis. J. Okpaku: Sure. It’s a fantastic question. Actually, we really enjoy talking about safety because we do legitimately R. Kahlon: Just understanding that…. So you have a full believe that we’ve taken safety to another level in the for-hire ride-share model, but you’re fexible in markets. You’re fex- vehicle industry. I would require…. A driver should have a ible in New York to fnd another option. relatively clean criminal background check history. Tis var- ies from market to market, but essentially what we do in the J. Okpaku: We created a new model just for New York United States is make sure that a driver has not been con- City, because New York City is a fairly unique market. victed of any crimes of violence or thef within a signifcant period of time, and there are some places and some crimes R. Kahlon: Tere’s money to be made, because it’s a big which are just disqualifying altogether. market, right? I do think that background checks and checking the his- tory of what a particular driver has done is only part of the J. Okpaku: Well, it’s a very unique market. It’s a big mar- battle, right? Because once they get on the platform, how do ket, obviously. But again, it is not only the exception to the you make sure that once they pass the checks they’re still rule across the country; it’s actually the exception to the rule being responsible drivers? Tat’s where I would urge this in New York state itself. Everywhere else in New York state panel to consider some of the technological enhancements the law was recently passed to allow for peer-to-peer ride- that we’ve brought to the platform. sharing. Frankly, getting into the weeds of it, politically, it If I can take a second, I’ll go into a little bit more depth was extremely difcult to get approval for peer-to-peer ride- about how our feedback system works. As I mentioned sharing in New York City. before, afer the ride is over, you are prompted, as a passen- ger, to rate your driver. If you rate anything less than fve R. Kahlon: I appreciate that. You probably understand stars, it’ll prompt another page which gives you a couple where I’m going with this. Tere was a question raised, of diferent areas where perhaps the driver has an area for which is: if A, B and C happened, would you operate? You improvement — like cleanliness of the vehicle or if they were said, “We never operated,” which is a good, diplomatic polite enough. answer. At the same time, your company has shown that It also has a safety category, and if you click safety, that’s you’re very fexible on markets, to be able to respond and to automatically triggering an immediate alert to our 24-7 trust work within them. Tat’s all I’m trying to get at. I’m not try- and safety team. But it goes a little bit beyond that as well. ing to…. I don’t need another answer; I just wanted to make Tere’s also a free-form area where you can enter com- that point. So thank you. ments into and provide more details about something. Let’s say you don’t click the safety button, which would automat- J. Okpaku: Tank you. I would just say that…. I wouldn’t ically trigger a review. Let’s say that I’m taking a ride, and say “multiple markets.” It’s one. And I wouldn’t say “very afer the ride — I have a fantastic ride — I mention: “I had a fexible.” I think it’s a very unique exception that still tends to great ride to the drugstore.” Te word “drug” is one of liter- prove the rule. ally thousands of keywords that are in our system that will, [4:15 p.m.] again, trigger an immediate review. Now, in this case, the situation that I just described is innocuous. Tere’s nothing A. Olsen: I have just one question. I appreciate your to be concerned about. But obviously, that’s a word that you answers around the safety issues, particularly the licensing want to be fagging in case there’s an issue with a driver. issues, and I’m on the record from the debate in the Legis- I would strongly urge…. For what it’s worth, this is some- lature, where I felt that perhaps we could go without the thing where…. I’ve testifed about our safety procedures and class 5, with maybe some extra conditions on that. I appreci- processes literally more times than I can count. At the risk ate that. of being impolitic, in the debate about safety, I have yet to One of the things that’s a challenge — when Uber was see anyone propose this for incumbent industries, and I do here yesterday and Lyf today — and that I’d just like to give think it’s a fairly obvious method to ensure and enhance you an opportunity to provide some insight on is…. Te safety for all for-hire transportation. challenge being that both yourselves and your competition For ride-sharing specifcally, I would think that that’s a can provide what you do, but recognizing the fact that there starting point, to make sure that there is an ability to have could be other entrants in the marketplace that could do immediate feedback and to have a system in place so that if something else. So how would you suggest that we deal with a driver needs to be pulled of the platform immediately, we the regulatory framework in that we’ve got to provide the can do so electronically and prevent a driver from getting safety and security to British Columbians no matter who’s access to any more ride requests until an investigation is delivering the service? I mean, I appreciate the explanation Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 255

completed. I think that’s kind of a baseline to ensure safety B. Ma (Chair): It’s basically a class 5, plus you have to be across industries, not just for ride-sharing. 19 years of age, two years driving experience, a cleanish driv- ing record, no motor vehicle–related Criminal Code viola- B. Ma (Chair): Tank you so much. tions, no debts or fnes to ICBC — they’re the insurer, of Any other questions from committee members? course — and then a road test and a knowledge test in the I would like to follow up a little bit about Mr. Olsen’s ques- beginning. When you’re getting your class 4, you get a road tion. Taking into account that you have very robust safety test, a knowledge test and then a medical test. programs within your own company, I think I appreciate Te medical test, road test, knowledge test — you oppose where Mr. Olsen is coming from in that there are many other those aspects of the class 4 licensing. Is that the barrier that potential entrants that do not have the kinds of robust safety you’re concerned about? programs and maybe not the same safety ethic that your company appears to prioritize, according to your presenta- J. Okpaku: It is. Again, I don’t pretend to have the most tion. nuanced understanding of all the aspects of the delineation [4:20 p.m.] between class 4 and class 5. But one thing I’ll say at the outset As legislators, we’re ofen needing to take a look at the is that…. entire gamut of companies and organizations that may oper- I’ll give an example. When Lyf frst launched in San Fran- ate under the regime, and it isn’t necessarily a criticism of cisco, we were requiring drivers to apply through the app or any particular company’s very robust program but rather to on line. For a brief period of time, we asked people to come protect the public from those companies that maybe do not to our San Francisco ofce to go through the process in per- have as robust a program is basically what I’m hearing. I can son. We saw a signifcant decrease in the amount of applic- certainly appreciate that perspective. ations to get onto the platform, because people are thinking Can I ask you…? Going back again to your comment about this as a part-time way of making a living. Or they’re about New York not having ride-sharing, we ofen hear that considering getting onto platform, but they’re not entirely B.C. is the only major jurisdiction without ride-sharing. I’m sure what they really think about this. I mean, this a little bit now hearing that New York City you don’t consider to have new for people to transport people in their personal vehicles. ride-sharing. Even with Uber? Uber doesn’t operate ride- We realized quickly that the model is very sensitive in sharing the way that we’re talking about in terms of peer-to- terms of the ability, the need, to be able to get people onto the peer ride-sharing? platform quickly. As a result, we came up with a system, as I mentioned before, which in most jurisdictions has a back- J. Okpaku: Tat’s correct. ground check process that is at least on par, if not more broad or more robust, with what was required in the states B. Ma (Chair): Really. where we operated. For example, in a couple of states…. Arizona, for example, for taxis. Yes, they had a require- J. Okpaku: Yes. ment for a background check, but it actually did not have any list of disqualifying crimes. Literally, you could have had a B. Ma (Chair): So New York City does not have ride-shar- background check and had a murder conviction and gotten ing. onto the platform. I understand that…. I’m trying to get, in a roundabout way, to your question. J. Okpaku: Tat’s correct. Not peer-to-peer ride-sharing. I know the terms have a little bit of overlap. B. Ma (Chair): Tat’s all right. We’re just really short on time, so I wanted to bring you back to the licensing. Crimin- B. Ma (Chair): Yes, they’re so fexible. Absolutely. al record check — that’s part of a separate requirement. We’re now talking about drivers licensing. J. Okpaku: Right. Not peer-to-peer ride-sharing — cor- You do operate under a commercial driver’s licence rect. requirement in Alberta and other provinces? Is that correct?

B. Ma (Chair): So we are not the only jurisdiction without J. Okpaku: We don’t operate in Alberta. peer-to-peer ride-sharing. B. Ma (Chair): You don’t operate in Alberta at all. Okay. J. Okpaku: No, you are not. Tank you. Are there other jurisdictions where you operate with a B. Ma (Chair): Okay. Tank you for that. similar commercial licence requirement? Now, in terms of the class 5 and the class 4 diference. You’re familiar with the class 4 versus class 5 here in B.C.? J. Okpaku: No.

J. Okpaku: Generally, yes. 256 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

B. Ma (Chair): Except for New York City, where it’s not umbia, the program objective is to ensure that the carriers peer-to-peer ride-sharing. maintain these minimum standards for drivers and vehicles — in other words, to preserve road safety. J. Okpaku: Well, again, there’s no such thing as peer-to- Te rationale…. It’s more than just certifying the vehicles peer ride-sharing. and the drivers. It’s more than that. It’s also that the carriers — the carriers that actually control the drivers, that manage B. Ma (Chair): Okay. Tank you very much. I apologize the feet — are responsible for the mechanical maintenance for cutting you short. I’ve been going over time. of their commercial vehicles and the actions of drivers over which they exercise control. I emphasize “exercise control.” J. Okpaku: It’s quite all right. Now, we have to remember, just as a quick aside, that these class 4 commercial driver requirements weren’t developed B. Ma (Chair): Our next presenter is Dr. Garland Chow. just a couple of years ago. Tey weren’t put up in response to [4:25 p.m.] new competition. In fact, in British Columbia, it was in 2003 Dr. Chow, thank you so much for coming back to present that RoadSafetyBC implemented much of this program. I’ll to us. I’m going to dive right into it. You’ve done this before just move quickly from that. — so 25 minutes uninterrupted and then 20 minutes of I would say that I’ve been keeping up with the news, and questions. Are you ready? I think one of the TNCs indicated that sometimes these requirements, especially the medical requirements, might G. Chow: I’m ready. prevent, for example, a person who’s deaf or hard of hearing from driving. I think that’s very similar to glasses. I mean, B. Ma (Chair): Fantastic. I’m supposed to drive wearing glasses. So if there’s a way to remedy those problems that makes it safe…. I can’t tell you GARLAND CHOW how to do that. We leave that to the medical community. Now, I’m ofen asked: “Is there empirical evidence show- G. Chow: I’m going to skip all the intros and all that. Te ing that higher standards result in higher safety?” True, I only thing I’ll say is that I do like data, so let’s just get going. don’t know of any with respect to the efectiveness of requir- I apologize. I miscommunicated. I did have something for ing commercial and class 4 licences in preventing accidents the screen, but unfortunately, we can’t put it on now. I know in the taxi industry. Tere’s a good reason for that, because a few of you now will have the physical copy, so I apologize the federal government had…. It’s a municipal area, so they to you back there. never thought it was important to prove it, although when it I’m going to deal with the four questions, but I changed was put together, the experts in the feld said: “Yes, it should the order, because I think there’s some logic to it. Te frst apply to taxis.” thing I’m going to deal with is the appropriate class of I do know, however, that there is no question that the drivers’ licences, including but not limited to ensuring a higher standards do have an impact on safety and crashes in robust safety regime without creating an undue barrier for the commercial trucking feld. In the interests of time, if dur- drivers. ing the Q and A you want to know more about that, I’ll men- I’m going to say it right of the bat. I do recommend that tion that. ride-hailing drivers be required to obtain a restricted class 4 [4:30 p.m.] licence instead of a class 5 licence as well as undergo trusted I’ll simply say that that type of model shows crashes are criminal record checks. reduced when they catch a carrier or a driver without a Now, there are some alternatives, such as — whoa — why medical certifcate, without the qualifed licence, and so on. don’t we have one higher standard for taxis and a lower Tey have, from statistical analysis, actually determined that standard for TNC drivers? Unfortunately, that would create there’s a probability that there’ll be an accident because of an even greater unfair playing feld for competitors who that. basically compete for the same customer in the same type of I’m going to now move into the economics. I think this vehicle. Another alternative is to go to the lowest common is very important. I don’t think anyone here doesn’t under- denominator for both competitors, but I think that will stand this now, because it’s been said so many times. Te reduce safety on B.C.’s roadways, because I feel that what basic business model of the TNCs is to have many, many, arose from the national safety code does in fact improve many drivers. It’s necessary, yes, to provide service. And safety on the streets. there’s nothing wrong with that from the private entrepren- I’m sure you’re aware that the national safety code, or eur’s point of view. Provide better service, sell it at a lower NSC, is a set of national standards. It’s supported by the pro- cost, and grab the business. Tat’s great. vincial regulations. Te program establishes management What I’m concerned about is this attitude: “Hey, wait a performance requirements for commercial carriers, includ- minute. You have these safety requirements — a need to have ing taxis. Tese standards establish minimum safety stand- a licence, a need to have a medical check, to do this and do ards for commercial vehicles and the drivers. In British Col- that.” Now, by the way, I would agree with our friends from Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 257 the TNCs that if there’s a way to streamline it, if there’s a comes, should that be done as well? I think that’s something way that the government can have it done right, at the low- you should not take lightly. est cost, they should do that. It’s no diferent than…. I know [4:35 p.m.] people will take a program, and they’ll say: “Hey, I took this Why do I say you shouldn’t take it lightly? Because there’s program at this other university. Are they equivalent?” Tat’s a problem of moral hazard. You know, moral hazard is what we need to know, and that’s not for me to judge at this where…. You know, there are conficting interests here. I point. have no qualms. I don’t blame any TNC or any company What I’m concerned about is that…. Te argument is which says: “I want to maximize my proft.” Teir sharehold- ofen made that: “Yes, our model depends on part-time ers demand that. When they do that, they have this tug-of- drivers, and because they’re part-time drivers, there’s the war. Teir tug-of-war is: “Am I going to maximize my proft, economic dis-beneft because the threshold cost of getting or may I kind of not be as safe as I’m required to be?” into business is too high. It’s not worth me getting this and Now, unfortunately, I don’t have the…. Oh no, I do have taking the efort to do it just to drive for a couple of hours a the slides here. I just want to tell you the two adages that I week or once a week and so on.” learned: one in college and one that I read here in a news- Well, the frst thing, which I’ve said before…. I apologize paper the other day. One of those adages is this: “You can that I’m repeating some things that I said last January. But if always defer safety, but you can’t keep the customer waiting.” there’s a restaurant and they have to meet the requirements My expertise is in the trucking industry. We talk about to be clean and no pests and this and that…. I don’t care if these truck drivers who say…. Tey can see their tire is bald. they’re open seven days a week, six days a week or one hour Tey can see that they shouldn’t be driving, but they got to a week. Tey have to have the same level of cleanliness and make money. Tey need to get that load out, so they say: “I’ll safety and so on. Tere’s just no question about that. Simil- just do this one now.” Or someone says: “Jeepers, I’ve already arly, I don’t care if the driver is driving the whole week or gone 50,000 kilometres. I should get my brakes checked or fve days or just three hours. When they’re out there, they’re maybe the brake lining replaced. But no, I’ll make this next exposing their customers to potential accidents. So that’s the trip.” Te same thing is true for hours of service, and so on last of that. and so on. Tat’s one adage. My phrase to describe this is that we shouldn’t be design- Te other one is this. It’s kind of like asking your dog to ing safety regulations to ensure competition. We need to only take one treat from the treat bag, and then as you walk design them to protect the public. Ten companies that can out the room, you know exactly what will happen. meet those requirements can enter the industry. In essence, Tere’s a moral hazard here. Look, every company is torn what I’m hearing is: “Oh, we have a basic business model, between these forces. Te federal government, through the and we want you to change the rules and regulations so that national safety code, has determined that: “No, we need our business model works.” Well, if that’s what the public oversight over this.” We want the carriers to have a program feels is fair enough, then so be it. that has oversight over it, and we audit that periodically to Tere is another aspect, and this is very important. I said ensure that there are active, proactive things for safety. earlier that the national safety code’s thesis is: “Wait a I’d like to make the following recommendation. In my minute. It’s not just the requirements. It’s also how you pro- slide, it’s called “Let’s play it safe.” I think that those arguing actively manage your drivers and the equipment.” Tat is, for lower safety standards and self-regulation of safety seek even though, yes, we heard there are many incentives and to change the safety environment, in part, to make the busi- checks and so on within the model for TNCs to improve ness model work. Look, I would do that too, if I had lots of safety, the one area that I’m very concerned about is: is there stock in those companies. actually a program that…? Tere are jurisdictions in Canada which only require the Commercial carriers — the taxicab companies and truck- equivalent of a class 5 licence, and there are jurisdictions ing companies — actually have a program in which they will where the class 4 is required. We’ve heard that now. regularly make sure the driver abstract has been examined. Te standing committee has already recommended that Tey’ll regularly ensure that there are checks made. Tey’ll the legislation be reviewed starting in two years. Te evid- have remediation programs and things like that. Tese are ence, then, by the end of two years, I think that there’ll be the types of things that when a taxi company…. Tey have a some…. I’m not saying it’s got to be complete. I don’t know program for that and the national safety code, and auditors how good it will be. Look, in two years, there will be evid- from CVSA will come in and audit that. Tey make sure that ence available to test the competing views on the efciency there is an oversight process over the drivers and the equip- of more efcient safety licensing for taxicabs. ment. For now, philosophically, if TNCs don’t want to be subject Who’s going to do that with the TNCs? “Well, wait a to these requirements, this implies that they have the wrong minute. If they’re not my employee….” Te TNC doesn’t business model for a province like B.C. where public safety is have to do it. So I would ask and recommend that that’s not to be sacrifced. Tat’s that document. another function that you folks should consider. If a TNC Now I’d like to move on to what criterion should be con- sidered when establishing price and… 258 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

How many minutes do I have lef? the people that you heard last year and, apparently, many of the people that you’ve heard here, congestion is an issue. B. Ma (Chair): Eleven. Tere’s no need to go over the evidence other than to say that I’ve got frsthand evidence. I dragon boat race, and G. Chow: …fare regimes that balance afordability with I have a lady who dragon boats with me. She spends half reasonable business rates of return for service providers. her time here and half her time in San Francisco. Te frst Well, I’m just going to spit it out real quick. I would recom- remark she made…. I didn’t even prompt her. She said: mend that there is minimum and maximum rate regulation. “Well, yeah. You know, we can get a TNC within fve or….” Te minimum rate regulation is the one that sets a foor She used ten minutes. “But doggone it, our trip takes 30 on what can be charged, whether it’s taxis or TNCs. Te minutes now.” foor. By the way, the only fair thing is that that foor, if it’s Of course, that’s exactly what that reporter from San Fran- lower for TNCs, then so be it. Tat’s what the foor is going cisco who reported last year indicated. Due to the conges- to be. However, that foor has to cover the long-run marginal tion…. Luckily, I got here when the gentleman from San costs, or what I call the fully allocated costs, of driving a cus- Francisco got here. Some of that is due to the TNCs. It’s not tomer. just growth and things like that. [4:40 p.m.] I’d like to now say something that I had hinted at in my It cannot be just…. It has to include the operating costs last testimony. One of the core reasons why this congestion of the vehicle; it has to include the cost of maintenance; it occurs is because we have so many vehicles on the road run- has to include the long-term replacement of the vehicle, and ning around generating kilometres of travel. Why is that the it has to include, to the degree that there’s mobility pricing case? Te core reason is that we want to provide — and or congestion pricing, all these externalities that can be put this is called the Amazon efect — such a high level of ser- back and internalized into the cost of providing a service. vice. Tat’s a trade-of. It’s a trade-of in which…. When you But most importantly, it has to include some component that provide such a high level of service, the basic fact is that you recognizes the minimum wage that a province looks for, if need more capacity. You need more vehicles on the road. not a living wage. Now, I don’t know how many of you saw Nightcrawler. Now, these are ideas. I’m not saying it’s going to be easy to Can you raise your hand? At least one. You can tell them project that. But if it does that, that’s…. You ought to have what I mean by this later. In Nightcrawler, you’ve got these that as a minimum. Ten you can have a maximum which guys that run around trying to get to an accident, a disaster, will be some two times, three times — whatever — what that as fast as they can, take the pictures and sell them to news minimum is. I think there are some extremes that are gone stations. to sometimes with respect to surge pricing. [4:45 p.m.] Tat’s what I mean by minimum and maximum rate reg- At the end of this flm, Jake Gyllenhaal talks to his team. ulation. But have rate fexibility for all competitors. Tat is At the end of that, his team goes into two vehicles. One what I recommend. I have some rationale for that, but I’m vehicle goes over there. One vehicle goes over there. Tat going to move onwards to the next topic, which I think is means that he has now halved, reduced by 50 percent, the quite important. time it takes to get to an accident in this geographic area. Okay. One principle here is that rates should at least cover Tat’s the same thing for taxi companies — excuse me, any costs. Oh, by the way, there is a lot of question about the sus- passenger-directed vehicle. tainability of the price that is being charged now. Te frst You have to have density. You have to have plenty of one, of course, is that it is a function of having the drivers vehicles, and that’s exactly the model. But that model says as subcontractors whose actual earnings are the residual of that, yes, we’re going to ofer the customers great service, what’s lef afer all the actual, variable out-of-pocket usually a fve-minute waiting time and things like that. Well, expenses. Tere’s plenty of evidence that that doesn’t cover that’s great. What is the impact of that? their costs or return on their time. I’m pleased to say that I’ve done a study. I’ve quantifed Afer all, the churn or turnover rate in TNCs is very, very that, estimating that for the taxi sector only. So it’s not TNCs. large. We know there are drivers who have sought to get I suspect that TNCs know exactly how many they need, and themselves defned as employees or have sought to organize it’s usually infnite. But what I have found, quantitatively the drivers either in a union or some association. We know determined, is that…. there are court cases and tribunals examining and, in some I’m just going to use these numbers really quickly. If you cases, getting closer to defning the TNC as the employ- want to have 80 percent of your customers get a vehicle with- er because of the control that they exert not only over the in ten minutes of your call, you need 1,304 vehicles out on drivers but over pricing and many other things. the street in this high-demand period, which is one of the Excuse me for a second so I can catch up with what I want weekend nights — during that hour. If you want 85 percent, to say. you need 2,056 vehicles. If you would like 90 percent, you How do you balance supply and demand within the con- need 3,160 vehicles. If you want 95 percent of your custom- text for TNCs as well as for taxis? As all of you know from ers to be picked up within ten minutes, you need 4,745. Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 259

Now, we can quibble about: “Oh, that’s a little high, a little You can actually control how many vehicles are going to low.” But the point…. In fact, this is actually kind of con- be in a certain geographic area. With real-time informa- sistent with what I read from that testimony last year. Even tion about the actual congestion or demand occurring in a though the TNCs have 45,000 drivers on any given night — certain area, you can then open up the window or reduce time — they have 9,000 vehicles. Te taxicabs — there are it. Of course, that assumes dynamic, right-at-that-minute 1,800 there. So if they want to get up to that higher level decision-making. Tis could be in which you use historical of service, in this case, the taxi companies will have to not data and identify the times and places where something is double, not quadruple but multiply their feet by six times, needed and make sure that the cap is wider at that time. and that’s going to increase congestion as well. Okay. How many minutes? Te point here is that the commission can actually…. Excuse me. Regulators, if they want, can model and determ- B. Ma (Chair): We are over time for the presentation ine what level of service is going to require what number of piece. vehicles. We have our frst question here, though — Mr. Kahlon. Now, I have to admit, in this research, I have not shown what the congestion will be. I haven’t gotten to that point. R. Kahlon: Te last time you presented, Professor Chow, But the point here is that that’s a lot of vehicles. you mentioned getting access to live data. I think you men- I found out something else. Tis one doesn’t require any tioned live data or the…. Well, you talked about the ability rocket science, and it doesn’t require any statistical estima- and the need to get data from taxis and TNCs. I believe you tion. When you have that number of vehicles, you’re sharing said live. But I do remember you saying…. the business. If every vehicle had an equal chance of getting business…. Interjection. When you get to that high level, what is the productivity of that driver to earn revenue? I measured that by the num- R. Kahlon: Okay. You can clarify it, but I think you said ber of minutes in an hour that they actually have a customer that decision-making could happen live as well. Do you want in their car, earning cash, earning money. Te answer is: to just touch on your thoughts on it? on average, for these high levels, it might be ten minutes. It might be 15 minutes — not an hour but 15 minutes. So you G. Chow: I think one of the complaints about regulations have this trade-of that’s not only between service and con- is that they’re slow, and they’re reactive and not proactive. gestion but service and productivity. Tat productivity is not At one level, and forgetting about getting it in real time, going to allow that driver to actually earn a living, a minim- you should require, as a condition of entry into the business um wage, in that hour. here in B.C., the availability of and accessibility to that data. Now, one way to change that equation is to raise the price, We’re not talking about stealing secrets and this and that. I raise it through surge pricing, so that even if they only get don’t have any doubt that, given all of these concerns about one trip in that hour, boy, they made a lot of money in that Huawei and this and that, there’s a way to assure who’s trip. Tat’s one possibility. Te other one is let’s put a cap on providing the data that it is kept private and used only for it. Excuse me. Te other one is let’s control what capacity is the purpose that it’s necessary for. In that manner, instead there. of waiting for complaints, the regulators can proactively see I want to emphasize that because TNCs have a lot of part- that service is declining. If service is declining, we need to time drivers, it is not right to regulate the number of drivers increase the supply. You have the ability. that they have access to. What is necessary, for either the tax- I know that on a manual basis, they do this in Australia. is or the TNCs, is to regulate or control — I want to say con- Tere’s a city in Australia…. I forget which state they do it in, trol — the number of vehicles that are on the street at a par- but every year they send out a message that says: “Tis year ticular time and in various areas. we’re going to increase the number of vehicles because our [4:50 p.m.] service level measurements indicate that service is declining To do that, you have basically two choices that have been right now or demand is going up.” Whatever combination. talked about. One is to use pricing. As an economist, I’d love Tey’re proactively going at that. At the furthest extreme is to do that. I’m not an expert in the area. I leave that as an to be proactive right now. alternative that you must investigate. Tere is nothing wrong Again, I’m just suggesting that you look at the possibility with using that. Tat might be the way to go. of this. Tis information is being collected in almost real I just want to make sure that you know that it’s also feas- time. Tat is, when a taxi driver makes a trip, they put their ible to do it through capping, because with today’s tech- meter on. It’s in the cloud already. Tey’re not downloading nology, with geofencing, with transponders…. In fact, you this at the end of the day. No, it’s in there. Okay? When they don’t even need a transponder. All you require is that the cell stop the vehicle and have the meter of, that information is phone of the vehicle, since every TNC has a cell phone in a recorded someplace. Where did they start? Where did they car getting their messages, can be pinged from a satellite or end? Te GPS coordinates are in there. microwave tower or whatever. I’m sure the TNCs have all that information even better. 260 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

Tat can be taken…. You don’t have to say: “I want every- safety, then I want to keep it as it is and then fnd out if I’m thing.” I mean, as a statistician, you have something called wrong. sampling — you know, sampling on a random basis, some- What I had specifcally suggested at the end of that section times in the morning, sometimes in the afernoon. Tat will was: “Look, you’re going to do a review in two years. We allow the regulators, if they want to, again, to have a picture know that you have jurisdictions across the country — some of what’s happening right then and there. with more stringent and less stringent. Tere’s no study done Ideally, I think that someone like TransLink should get on taxi drivers that’s been done on commercial truck drivers. this. Ten they could start measuring congestion along with Let’s see if there’s some evidence there.” If the TNCs, when how fast their buses move. Boom, boom, boom. Tey have a legislation is passed, do enter here, we also have our eco- better picture of what’s happening dynamically, if they don’t nomic laboratory here as well, to see: did it make any difer- have it now. ence? [4:55 p.m.] I can’t say: “Is it approved 100 percent?” I’m just using Tat’s what I meant. Is it technologically feasible? I think logic. But I can say that the parallel commercial trucks have it is, and that’s the reason I’m saying: “Tink about it.” proven it statistically. So I’ve got that evidence. I have my logic. I say just hang on for two years. See if you can collect B. Ma (Chair): Any other questions from committee more information. Te philosophy here is that if you put members? down a regulation, it’s not in stone forever. And if there is no value to it, chuck it out. A. Olsen: I’d like to ask about what I perceive to be some- [5:00 p.m.] what of a contradiction in your testimony, with respect to the class 4 licensing. On one hand, you argued to keep class A. Olsen: In the meantime, the status quo, which has 4 restricted for people providing this commercial service proven to not be working…. Or at least from a business because it’s safer and to get better outcomes. But then you model perspective and from a demand, we’re not providing used an analogy which suggested truck drivers who have the level of services that we need. In the meantime, we are that class 4, making decisions that…. I guess inherent in it, still failing to deliver as an entity because we’re maintaining there’s an assumption that the taxi companies are making the status quo, which, arguably, is what the ultimate goal of safer decisions about the safety of their vehicles and what- that is, is it not? ever. I want to be clear that it appeared that there was a contra- G. Chow: Tat’s where my position on entry is very diction in that testimony from you, because you used an ana- important, because the status quo…. Tis is what I said last logy which suggested that a truck driver would drive with time. Actually, from the statistics I’ve seen, the industry, in bald tires or whatever. many ways, produced exactly what the regulatory authorities signalled that they wanted. G. Chow: I hope it’s not a contradiction. Tere are two I know that the PTB leaders said: “Oh, Dr. Chow got that parts to the national safety code. One is that your drivers and from a specifc situation. Our criterion isn’t exactly that.” But your vehicles meet certain standards. Te other one is: do over the years, the PTB has never demanded: “You shall have your drivers and your maintenance group and so on actively a waiting time of only fve minutes 100 percent of the time.” ensure that the vehicle is well and the driver himself is doing Tey’ve never said that. What I saw in a particular case was a good job? Tat’s where, yes, there can be drivers who, des- that they accepted that service is good if, within 15 minutes, pite having the proper licence, might do something like not 92 percent of the customers got…. A taxi got there. Based on do the precheck because they want to get of as fast as they that, the taxi industry exceeded that, on average, all the time. can. When you say that we have failed, we have failed to Tere can be a driver who will drive extra hours when provide a new level of service that now people are saying: they shouldn’t be. How are we going to monitor that? Who’s “Tis is exactly what the people want.” Well, it may well be going to…? Tat part of it is where the practice is that the that they want it. It may well be that people might be satis- carriers have a responsibility to monitor their drivers in fed with having it in 15 minutes, in which case, the service achieving these regulations on safety. levels that I had put down in this example here will require I must have blown that. an even smaller number of vehicles.

A. Olsen: I don’t know. I mean, I just feel that it’s easy to B. Ma (Chair): Are there any other questions from com- suggest that we maintain the status quo on this. Tere’s no mittee members? real way for us to actually test. All right. Can I try to summarize what I think the dia- Another question that I have is that…. logue was there? My understanding is that your recom- mendation is that, given there is no set data right now to G. Chow: Can I just follow that and say this is like a type 1 prove whether or not a class 4 or a class 5 is the right way and type 2 error. If I believe that this does have an impact on to go, you’re recommending that we err on the side of cau- Thursday, January 31, 2019 Crown Corporations 261

tion. Rather than moving to a class 5 and then fnding out our deliberations.” Phrase it like that. If there’s any informa- in two years that we should have kept it at class 4, the way tion that they feel might be useful in order to — or not just forward should be to keep it at the class 4 and then, in two information but data and evidence…. years, decide whether or not we want to loosen it to a class 5. S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): I’m not asking what they G. Chow: You said it better than I could. think is useful. I’m asking for what I would fnd useful and whether they have that. If they don’t have it, they’ll come B. Ma (Chair): I think that is it. Tank you so much for back with: “We don’t have that.” coming down again, Dr. Chow. I really appreciate it. B. Ma (Chair): All right. Very well. So collision rate infor- Other Business mation, information in regards to how many hours those with class 4 versus class 5, or kilometres, whatever they B. Ma (Chair): Now, that concludes our witness testi- might have — quantity information on that. monies for today. I believe we were going to discuss very briefy any questions that we were going to send to ICBC for S. Chandra Herbert: To clarify, I think Ms. Cadieux sug- response. I’m told that we did get a submission from ICBC gested “at fault” because obviously, if you’re on the road a lot, as part of our request, and they did provide further clarifca- and you get hit by someone else, well…. tion on the diferences between a class 4 and a class 5 — the tests, and so forth. S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Doesn’t count. Are there other questions that the committee would like to pose to ICBC at this time, or should we review that and B. Ma (Chair): Absolutely. move forward? J. Sturdy: Yeah, vehicle kilometres driven as a compar- S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): I don’t see anything in the able. ICBC letter that talks about any data. My concern was about data around class 4 and class 5 and about at-fault accident B. Ma (Chair): All right. And to see if there’s any compar- rates related to both of those classes of drivers. I’d still like to able vehicle-kilometres-driven information that we can use. see what they come back with in regards to that. S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): Tat’d be great. B. Ma (Chair): Okay. According to some of our witnesses, that information might not exist, but I think it’s worthwhile B. Ma (Chair): Let’s see what they come back with. to actually ask ICBC directly. I agree. Would committee members be opposed to asking ICBC for any study or data- S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): And then the Passenger base evidence they can provide in regards to the at-fault col- Transportation Board. lisions caused by drivers of class 4 versus drivers of class 5? B. Ma (Chair): Go ahead, Stephanie. What did you want S. Chandra Herbert: I’m certainly not opposed. I just to ask from the Passenger Transportation Board? want it to actually be useful, because, of course, a class 4 driver might be a professional driver on the road all the time, S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): I’d like to actually see the whereas a class 5 driver…. If you’re doing the aggregate, you class 4…. Maybe committee staf can fnd this quicker than get people who use their car once a weekend or something asking the PTB, but at a minimum, I’d like to know what like that. I just want to make sure it’s useful, that we’re not the class 4 medical checklist, etc., is, because in the ICBC comparing apples and oranges. letter, it does suggest that right now, for a class 4 licence, getting a medical assessment or whatever and then having S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): I would argue that that is it processed can take up to two years. Tey’re backlogged the point, though, because we’re deciding whether we should by 10,000 pages of information. I would like to know what treat drivers as diferent. I think there’s a good argument to exactly it is we’re getting out of this medical information that be made that class 5 drivers that decide to drive for a ride- is so relevant to driver safety for part-time drivers. share company a couple of hours a week are not actually driving any more than the average class 5 driver. B. Ma (Chair): Does that information live with PTB or [5:05 p.m.] ICBC?

B. Ma (Chair): Okay. Perhaps we can change that ques- A Voice: RoadSafetyBC. tion, then, to ICBC as: “Any information in relation to the diference in driving activity between class 4 versus class 5 S. Cadieux (Deputy Chair): RoadSafetyBC. Tank you. and any diferences in collision rates that might be useful for 262 Crown Corporations Thursday, January 31, 2019

B. Ma (Chair): With RoadSafetyBC. Tank you so much. P. Milobar: Also, further to what Adam was saying around the PTB and the supply issues, I would be curious S. Chandra Herbert: Te wait times would be interesting, if they could provide us with a little more insight into: do just because I read a submission that suggested they would they have a current target timeline to approve a taxi licence accept class 4 if it was done in a timely way, suggesting there’s under the current format — approve or disapprove — and a problem there. what is that? Are they currently making those timeline tar- gets? What is their anticipated timeline if there are, indeed, B. Ma (Chair): Understood. caps put in place and everything has to go through them for approving a TNS licence? What is their timeline that they are A. Olsen: I’d just like to ask the question of the Passenger anticipating to approve or disapprove an application on all of Transportation Board around the public convenience and these one-of bases? Tat will be a big question mark around necessity, with respect to how they see the new defnition in supply and capacity within the PTB. the application. I think Peter talked about it, asked several of the questions, several times. We fnally did get a pretty clear B. Ma (Chair): We can add that, certainly, as well. I might answer, I think, with respect to what that language is. But I’d caution the committee about the responses we might get. like to hear from the Passenger Transportation Board — how Given that a lot of this is hypothetical, we may fnd they are they feel their application is. unable to provide the exact responses that we’re hoping for.

R. Kahlon: Yeah, I think that’s fne. But it’s not within the P. Milobar: Well, I’m hoping they could at least provide mandate of what this committee’s work is. I mean, we can ask what their current workload is… for that information if you think it’s helpful for the commit- tee’s sake. But it’s not part of the work. I’m not against it. I’m B. Ma (Chair): I think that that’s much more…. Yes. just wanting to make sure that people know that. P. Milobar: …and how long it’s taking them to currently A. Olsen: I think, to be clear, it is. As part of, I think, approve a licence. If it’s currently taking months, by the the frst point, we were actually here to talk about the public sounds of it, if not years, why should there be any reasonable convenience and necessity. expectation that if we’re going to control supply and every- thing has to go through that exact same board with the exact R. Kahlon: Oh, sorry. Tat’s the supply piece? same three criteria to be considered, other than slight word- ing that they may or may not consider some of that criter- Some Voices: Yeah. ia…? I think that’s a valuable piece to the public conversa- tion as to public expectation for the rollout of actually seeing R. Kahlon: Okay, sorry. I apologize. I misunderstood. a car in operation of any substance, of any numbers, under this new Bill 55 framework that we’re saddled with. B. Ma (Chair): All right. We’ll add that to the list. B. Ma (Chair): Yes, historical information should be with- J. Sturdy: Tere’s a cost associated with licensing as well. in their ability to provide, so I would expect that. I read on line there were some diferent perspectives on Any other comments from committee members? Ques- whether it was the responsibility of the driver to pay for it tions? or whether it was covered by the medical system, to get that Can I get a motion to adjourn? assessment. My recollection was it was around $100, and it was paid S. Chandra Herbert: So moved. for by the applicant. But on line, it suggested that it was the system that pays for it. Motion approved.

B. Ma (Chair): Some clarity on that. B. Ma (Chair): Te meeting is adjourned until Monday, February 11. J. Sturdy: It’d be nice to understand who’s paying for that and what kind of numbers we’re talking about at the end of Te committee adjourned at 5:12 p.m. the day as a burden to the system. [5:10 p.m.] Hansard Reporting Services

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