the boisi center interviews no. 85: October 29, 2013

mary mcaleese served as the from 1997 to 2011, during which time she was instrumental in the peace process in . She spoke with Boisi Center associate director Erik Owens before her presentation on peacebuilding and reconciliation in the context of Northern Ireland at the Boisi Center.

owens: One of the things that has help to give leadership there—in terms who became a at a time when it been striking in reading about your of reconciliation in particular—that was was not normal or encouraged for women history is the power of female leadership facilitated by virtue of being a woman. to become , women like myself in Ireland—not only your remarkable People expected something different are good at working small spaces and fourteen-year tenure as president, but from women. And I think that’s always trying to develop from them something also your administration following that of been a leitmotif of my own life and my bigger than the space we were given. So another remarkable female president. Is in that sense, frankly, I think women there something specific about Irish poli- around the world do that. tics or culture that makes this possible? owens: How did growing up in mcaleese: I don’t think that it’s in a time of great strife and violence necessarily any different from other affect your view of life? Are there lessons places. If you were to look at the political about endurance or hope or peace that scene generally, we actually don’t have might apply to people in other places who a very large number of women engaged experience violence or terrorism in their in day-to-day politics. But women are communities? particularly suited, it seems to me. Both mcaleese: We were born into it, that’s [her predecessor] and I the first thing. There was a normalcy would have been particularly suited to about divisions, , the threat the presidency at a particular time in of violence. [My husband and I] were Irish politics simply by virtue of being both born at the beginning of the 1950s, women. It’s a bit like being a lay person and the IRA campaign continued right in the Catholic Church. On the one hand, into the 1950s. If you look at the history it’s a very powerless position to be in. But of the areas we were born into—my own on the other hand, it can also be quite a own career—that somehow, funnily parish, for example, —there had powerful position. Since you have noth- enough, being overlooked as a group been anti-Catholic sectarian pogroms ing to lose, if you wish, you can stand or as a member of a group sometimes there virtually in every generation, going your ground. You can state your case. You (despite the fact that it is quite shocking back for a century or more. We were born can’t be censured in the way that perhaps for whole sections of a community to in Belfast, a sectarian city. I grew up as somebody who’s more embedded in the be overlooked) gives you space in which a Catholic in a Protestant area; Martin power structure can be. to do things, think things, be things, grew up as a Catholic in a Protestant area. I felt that the presidency was essentially contemplate things that are not shaped We were constantly aware of sectarian- a pastoral role. Leaving aside the con- by the ambient traditional discourse, but ism, even as times changed and, in the stitutional role’s office work, there was allows you space to develop alternative 1960s, there appeared to be the growth of a pastoral space that I could occupy and ideas. And I suppose also, as a woman an accommodation between the govern-

1 the boisi center interview: mary mcaleese ment in the North and the government actually could think more creatively, grant-aided third-level education. We in the South. There appeared to be a could perhaps engage in a much more now had ambitions to become university settling of the conflict and particularly, imaginative and generous discourse? educated, to go into the professions. We in the light of Vatican II, more talk about And so that’s where we made our stand, were the people who started to push up ecumenism; but of course then that all both individually and then together. against the sectarian barriers that ex- went horribly wrong with the stirring up We’ve been together for over forty years, cluded Catholics for all sorts of nefarious of the sectarian dragon by Dr. Ian Paisley and married for thirty-seven. reasons. And we were—again to quote and his cohorts and by Protestant para- Heaney—we were the “intelligences, owens: Congratulations! militaries. It all blossomed again. But I brightened and unmannerly as crow- have to say, that sectarianism was always mcaleese: We started going out togeth- bars.” We were determined to take those in the atmosphere. We were always aware er when we were seventeen. So we made crowbars—in our case, intellectual crow- there were places we couldn’t go safely or these decisions as we were on the run, bars. He said in his poem, “Digging,” could only go with Protestant friends to that he was going to dig with his pen. defend us. We decided that we would change things with our brainpower and our powers of Then, when broke out— persuasion, not the use of violence, and when effectively a civil war broke out on “We lived beside that those powers of persuasion would be our doorstep in 1969—though we had rooted in gospel values to love one anoth- lived in a sectarian conflict, we were each other­— er. We just became determined that what really not prepared for the duration of we lived cheek we had inherited—which was a very, very that conflict. In my innocence—I was longstanding conflict—had to stop. Some only an 18 year old at the time—I thought by jowl—in generation had to stand against it and to it might last a week. Then it lasted a change the narrative to shift its trajectory month. Then it lasted a year and finally monumental towards peace. So that’s where we started. over thirty years. And during that time, there was huge provocation on all sides and dangerous Long before I ever became president, I and huge temptation to be drawn into ignorance of was involved in cross-community and an- one of the sides, by the sheer gravitation- ti-sectarian activities. I co-wrote a report al pull of history. Both sides have a very, one another, for the Irish Council of Churches, which very strong tradition of paramilitarism represents the Protestant churches and and fighting. Friends of ours made the but unaware of the Catholic Church, on sectarianism, choices to join paramilitaries. trying to chart a way for the churches to how ignorant we help us out of the mire. I did a series of In this context, you’re confronted with a broadcasts called “The Protestant Mind” conundrum. What do you do? You can were.” for BBC radio to try and penetrate the do what a lot of people do, which is just mind that I didn’t understand, because I pretend and ignore and hope that it all felt that one of the things that we really goes away. You can bury yourself in some failed to do was to truly try and stand kind of a middle class cocoon and protect and were helped by our families and by in the shoes of the Other. Worse than yourself by all sorts of techniques of neu- our faith. I was very well catechized by that, we lived beside each other—we tralization. We found that very difficult the Passionists in the way of the cross, in lived cheek by jowl—in monumental and to do because we both came from very endurance and stoicism—but not in the dangerous ignorance of one another, but tough, rough working class areas where it way of Heaney’s description of them in unaware of how ignorant we were. We wasn’t so easy to do that. And so we both his poem, “From the Canton of Expecta- actually thought we knew these people “made [our] stand”—to quote Seamus tion,” where he describes the generation well enough to be contemptuous of their Heaney—and our stand was we’re not go- to prior to me, which was my parents’ views, to ransack history for ammunition ing to get involved in violence. There has generation and grandparents’ generation, to throw at them—ammunition that to be a better, more humanly decent way as living “under high, banked clouds of showed how nefarious they were, how than this. Are we going to be conduits for resignation.” That generation was gone. they couldn’t be trusted, how sectarian the toxic spores that keep this going from The big disconnect between that gener- they were. And of course they did the generation to generation? Or could we ation and mine was education. We were same for us. Here we were, these two be part of a generation—now the most the beneficiaries of free second-level and Others, living cheek by jowl, but not educated generation on the island—that

2 the boisi center interview: mary mcaleese really working to try and find a coherent way of living in a neighborly way. So that’s what we started down the road of doing: to see how we could become good neighbors. owens: That’s such a powerful account. Religion is wrapped up so tightly in this, and yet it isn’t everything in this conversation. I wonder if you could say a word about the role of education in this context: what does it take to change the value structure of a society? What should the state do, or the churches, or other institutions, to break apart a culture of conflict? mcaleese: I think you’re right to focus on education. As you know, in the answers for the nefariousness of the our country. It suited people not to talk Northern Ireland and in Ireland gen- Other. about any Irish men who might have erally, education is, by parental choice, been away fighting for Britain at a time denominationalized. I’m content that Let me take one example. That is the when Irish men at home were fighting parents should have that choice—though story about the First World War in against Britain. The truth of the matter increasingly people are making choices Ireland. At the time of the First World is 250,000 people—from a population for more integrated education, where War, the 1914–1918 War, Ireland was still of two and a half million, which means people can come together and have an a colony of Britain, and so all of Ireland virtually a member of every family—put education that is not based solely on the was an undivided colony of Britain. Irish on a British uniform and fought in the view of one denomination or another, so soldiers, as always with the poorest of the First World War. Fifty thousand of them I feel like there is a slight widening of poor, were the fodder of British armies did not come home; a lot more came choice occurring. A denominationalized going back for many, many wars. They home ill, traumatized, and injured. And education system itself doesn’t bother were the frontline troops. But given their who were they? Were they all me. It’s not where people are educated, powerless political situation in Ireland at Protestants? Actually, a small proportion frankly, that bothers me. It’s how they’re that time, the British did not introduce of them were Ulster Protestants. By far educated, what they’re told that bothers compulsory military service. So it was the greatest majority were Irish Catholic me. In a divided society, you get divided left to people to volunteer. The narrative nationalists, who, when they came back, histories, and where you have divided that we grew up with in Northern Ireland were regarded as traitors to the cause of histories, people tell lies about history, was that the only people who volunteered Irish unity and nationhood, and whose or they don’t tell the whole truth about were the good Ulster Protestants. The memories then were shoved in “shoebox- history. When people use history as a Ulster Protestants of the 36th division, es in the attic.” way of proposing their own world view who died at the Somme in large num- and propping up the barricades that keep bers; they honored their commitment, We knew how much this military tradi- them separate and different from those their value system, to the little nations tion mattered to Protestants because we outside, it means that, when you do meet of Europe, and off they went and fought lived in Protestant areas. Their tradition the Other—whether it’s at work or at play and died. That was the narrative, which of going to the Cenotaph and putting or in marriage—you might be talking allowed them, of course, to look at the down the wreaths of poppies enhanced English, but you’re not talking the same Irish Republic and at Catholics as we had their sense of Britishness, and also, over language. The thought processes and the always been looked at: as disloyal, subver- and against that, diminished any pos- perceptions that make you passionate, sive, not-to-be trusted. sibilities of a sense of Irishness. So we, that whole realm of identity has been along with others who’d been at this long On the Catholic side, they were happy forged around a narrative that is highly before us, started down the road of telling with that narrative. Why? Because in specific to your group. It’s specific in a the truth about this story. In 1998 I went 1916 we had a rising against British rule way that has been manufactured to be with Queen Elizabeth to Messines in Bel- that led to a civil war and the partition of over and against the Other. You have all gium, where we instituted together the

3 the boisi center interview: mary mcaleese Irish Peace Tower in memory of all Irish debating, which was the one area where no such thing as peace without justice, in men who died. Suddenly it’s different. there was a chance, strangely enough. my view. We use expressions, for exam- Now people who regarded themselves as But even there, it was difficult to talk ple, like “parity of esteem.” There would quintessentially British, not at all Irish, real politics, because, having grown never have been a Good Friday Agree- in Northern Ireland were saying, well, up in divided communities, we hadn’t ment in Northern Ireland had it not been we were a little bit Irish. And people who learnt the proper language of respect- underpinned by an infrastructure that regarded themselves as quintessentially ful engagement, and there were always guaranteed to the citizens of Northern Irish, not at all British, were saying, well, dangers around those debates. So those Ireland—all of them, on an equal basis— maybe we could be a little bit British. debates always managed to carefully parity of esteem, and allowed them to And, maybe more importantly, we could avoid dealing with the kinds of subjects believe that, where their rights were vio- use this story to create a platform of that might be identity ridden or about lated—whether for sectarian, gender, or shared memory and not one of division. which we might be cholerically passion- whatever reasons—that those incursions ate. They concentrated perhaps more on into their rights would be brought before So this is where education is important. international politics or issues that would a forum of justice, and they themselves, Education ought to tell the truth about not divide us. But those were also good as individuals and citizens, would be things and not enter a gigantic conspir- things, because we made a lot of friends vindicated. There is no such thing for acy, as it had done for generations. I’m through debating, as we did also at uni- me as the concept of peace without some always very wary of every historian who versity. University was one of the very few form of justice. This may not be true claims to be objective, because ultimately of all contexts, but it’s certainly true of they tell an edited version of history. In ours, because there was such a history of divided societies, history is told in a way injustice. that serves to maintain the toxin of dif- “The Good Friday ference. Where there is history of conflict If you look at the story of Northern and violence, regrettably, you’ll find in Agreement Ireland, British imperialism has nothing the history books the spores that outcrop is peace with to be proud of. Britain behaved appall- in one or two generations down the road ingly in Ireland. And then, of course, the in more violence. justice. There is empire changed, and it morphed into this modern democratic state that, along with These are important things that we are no such thing as us, is a member of the . now beginning to get a grip on in the Our relationship with it changed—partic- North and South. We look at curriculum peace without ularly the relationship between it and the now. We have looked for a long time now . For a long time, it ig- for ways in which our children, though justice, in my nored what went on in Northern Ireland they go to separate schools, can engage with that colonial neglect. Then it copped with one another. Historically, they didn’t view.” on to what was happening. And for a play the same sports, so they were never period, right through until, I think, the going to play on the same teams. Prot- end of Maggie Thatcher’s era, it tried to estants played rugby; Catholics played places to meet across the divide, because go it alone, to deal with it in colonial and Gaelic football. A huge amount of work workplaces, of course, were often divided imperial terms. Then they discovered, re- has been done to try and find common along sectarian lines. ally from John Major onwards—who was ground in this divided community—ei- owens: Thinking here not only about absolutely a first-class interpreter of the ther from the past that was deliberately the Irish context, but extrapolating for new dynamic of partnership, of mutual obscured, or to create new common lessons that might be learned elsewhere, respect between the governments—that ground. Take sports as a classic example: do you feel like there is an inherent you were going to get more tangible re- schools now are making an effort to be tradeoff between justice and peace in sults and more stability if you worked in more inclusive in their sporting endeav- conflicts like this? Must one be sacri- respectful cooperation with your neigh- ors so that Catholics will run across ficed for another, or are they always tied boring government. Protestants, Protestants will run across together? Catholics, and children will have an op- From John Major onwards, we’ve had a portunity for friendship building. mcaleese: I think that we would have growing and incredibly fruitful dynamic said, in relation to the peace process in between the governments in the Republic Growing up, we did have some oppor- Northern Ireland, that the Good Friday of Ireland and in Britain. That was key. tunities. Martin and I were involved in Agreement is peace with justice. There is Once they started to work together, they

4 the boisi center interview: mary mcaleese couldn’t be defeated in a way because, work, they began to see the value of it. allowed Catholics to not get jobs, that al- in the past, they’d pulled against each Little by little, they were brought in. The lowed Catholics to not have votes, allowed other, neither working together, to a St. Andrews Agreement then, which was them to be excluded, to be regarded as different beat and to a different drum. an update of the Good Friday Agreement, second class. The Agreement also gives The government in Britain is saying, if drew them into the equation, and they to the unionists the comfort of knowing Northern Ireland ever decides to be part now are in government together. you can remain British for as long as the of the Republic, we won’t stand in their people of Northern Ireland wish that to Some people will give out about the way. That’s a big sea change. And then be the case. They were always fearful that government; they’ll say they don’t do the government of Ireland is saying, well, their Britishness and that their adherence this and they don’t do that. I say they’re that being so, we’re prepared to accept to the crown and their adherence to the there, which is a miracle. They haven’t that Northern Ireland is now part of the kingdom would be under threat. So they gone away, and they’re working as well United Kingdom and will remain part have everything to play for in terms of as any government probably anywhere of the United Kingdom until such times being neighborly and persuading people in Europe is working. They have their as people, by referendum, change their who are Irish nationalists that staying problems. They have their things that you minds—if they ever do. These were co- with Britain is a better deal. Meanwhile could criticize them for. All governments lossal sea changes, great compromises on nationalists also have the opportunity are criticize-able. But the fact that they both sides, which were of course vindicat- to persuade in favor of a united Ireland are there and continuing to proclaim the ed then in the Good Friday Agreement, knowing that from time to time the values of the Good Friday Agreement because they were put to referendum. Did level of support for a united Ireland will and show it in operation seems to me the people agree with this leadership? Yes be tested by referendum and if it is the that we’re giving this generation breath- they did, in huge numbers, which gave will of a majority it will happen. Today ing space to start to grow a new decent the political extremes food for thought. our priority is to work for a reconciled culture. Some people say that’s all we’re Ireland of good neighbors who have put The Catholic political extremes identified giving them. the culture of sectarianism behind them by the IRA and Sinn Fein were on board We’re not working for a generational and who can respectfully and peacefully for the Good Friday Agreement, but the truce. It’s much more than that. It is a sea argue the toss about our political future. political extremes of Paisley’s DUP and change. The Good Friday Agreement is a the Protestant paramilitaries were not. comprehensive agreement underpinned They were outside the process. But once by justice. It’s an architecture of justice [end] it started to deliver, once it started to that we failed to have in the past that

The Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life 24 Quincy Road Chestnut Hill, MA 02467

tel 617-552-1860 fax 617-552-1863 [email protected] Visit bc.edu/boisi-resources for a complete set of the boisicenter Boisi Center Interviews and audio, video, photographs, @boisi_center and transcripts from our events.

5 the boisi center interview: mary mcaleese