Case 1 :09 - - 01385 - PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 1 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE
INTHE UNITED STATES DISTRICTCOURT FORTHE DISTRICTOFCOLUMBIA
) MUHAMMEDRAHIM , ) Petitioner
) Civil Action No. 09-1385 (PLF)
BARACK OBAMA, ) President of the United States, et al., )
Respondents.
ISN 10029 CSRT Transcript
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- - 01385- PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 2 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI/ FORPUBLICRELEASE
Combatant Status Review Tribunal Live Hearing Script ( NO WITNESSES )
SECTION 1: UNCLASSIFIED (OPEN SESSION:
OPENING
PRESIDENT This hearing shall come to order.
RECORDER: This Tribunal is being conducted at 1302 hours on February 9, 2009 on board U.S. Base Guantanamo Bay Cuba. The following personnel are present:
3 U.S. President.
AirForce, Member
3 Army, Member,
3 Air Force, PersonalRepresentative.
3 Translator.
3 U.S. Air Force, Reporter/Paralegal.
3 U.S , Recorder .
3 is the Judge Advocate member of the Tribunal.
OATHSESSION1
RECORDER AllRise
3 PRESIDENT The Recorder will now be swom. Do you, swear, swear you willfaithfully perform the duties as Recorderassigned in this Tribunal, so help you God?
RECORDER : I do,
PRESIDENT The Reporterwillnowbe swom TheRecorderwill administerthe oath.
RECORDER : Do you3 swear that you will faithfully perform the duties as Reporter assigned in this Tribunal , so help you God?
REPORTER: I do.
PRESIDENT : TheTranslatorwill sworn
Page 1 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09-cv- 01385- PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 3 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE
3 RECORDER Do you Contract Linguist swear that you will faithfully perform the duties as Translator assigned in this Tribunal, so help you God?
TRANSLATOR: I do.
PRESIDENT Alright folks, we will take a brief recess while the detainee is brought into the room .
RECORDER: This Tribunal is in now in recess. The time is 1303 hours on February 9 , 2009.
CONVENINGAUTHORITY
RECORDER: Rise
PRESIDENT: Pleasebe seated.
PRESIDENT This hearingwill come to order.
TRANSLATOR: (TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
RECORDER: This Tribunal has returned from recess . The time is 1327 hours on February 9, 2009.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
PRESIDENT The Tribunal is convened by order of the Director, Combatant Status Review Tribunals under the provisions of his order dated 23 January 2009
TRANSLATOR ; ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
PRESIDENT : This Tribunal will delermine whether you , MUHAMMAD RAHIM , meet the criteria to be designated as an combatant against the United States or its coalition partners.
TRANSLATOR: (TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
OATH SESSION 2
PRESIDENT The membersof the Tribunalshall nowbe swom .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
Page 2 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 : 09 - - 01385 - PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 4 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDFORPUBLICRELEASE
RECORDER: Do you swear that you will faithfully perform your duties as a member of this Tribunal; that you will impartially examine and inquire into the matter now before you according to your conscience , and the laws and regulations provided ; that you will make such findings of fact and conclusions as are supported by the evidence presented; that in determining those facts, you will use your professional knowledge, best judgment , and common sense; and that you will make such findings as are appropriate according to the best of your understanding of the rules regulations, and laws governing this proceeding , and guided by your concept ofjustice , so help you God?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
TRIBUNAL MBR I do.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
PRESIDENT I do.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE).
TRIBUNAL MBR I do.
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT The Recorder will now administer the oath to the Personal Representative .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OFABOVE).
RE ORDER : Do you swear that you will faithfully perform the duties of Personal Representativeinthis Tribunal, so help you God ?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE).
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE : I do.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE)
PRESIDENT; Please be seated ,
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OFABOVE).
PRESIDENT The Recorder, Reporter, and Translator, have previously been swom.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE).
Page 3 of 79
PUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- - 01385- PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 5 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED PUBLICRELEASE
EXPLANATION OF PROCEEDINGS
PRESIDENT: MUHAMMAD RAHIM , you are hereby advised that the following rules apply during this hearing.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT: You may be present at all open sessions of the Tribunal. However, if you do become disorderly, you will be removedfrom the hearing, and the Tribunalwill continueto hear evidencein your absence.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
PRESIDENT: You may not be compelled to testify at this Tribunal. However, you may testify ifyou wish to do so, and your testimony can be given under oathor unswom
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT You have the assistance of a Personal Representative at this hearing; your assigned Personal Representative is present.
TRANSLATOR: (TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE )
: PRESIDENT You may present evidence to this Tribunal, including the testimony of witnesses who are reasonably available and whose testimony is relevant to this hearing. You may question these witnesses testifying at the Tribunal
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE).
PRESIDENT: You may examine documents or statements offered into evidence other than classified information. However, certain documents may be partially maskedfor security purposes.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
PRESIDENT Mr. MUHAMMAD RAHIM , do you understand this process ?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE Yes
PRESIDENT Do you have any questions of the Tribunal ?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE).
Page 4 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED RELEASE Case 1 :09- - 01385- PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 6 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator) will do it at the end,
PRESIDENT Very good.
PRESENTATION OF UNCLASSIFIED INFORMATION
PRESIDENT Mr. Personal Representative, please providethe Tribunal with the DetaineeElectionForm .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE).
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE: I am handing the Tribunal the Detainee Election Form , which was previouslymarked as Exhibit D - a and the Affirmationof Combalant StatusReviewTribunalNoticeto Detaineemarkedas ExhibitD -
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
PRESIDENT: The document ( s ) D - a and D - b are received into the record.
PRESIDENT: MUHAMMAD RAHIM , see that you have opted to respond to each allegation after the Recorderhas read them . We do not requirean oath. Would you like to make your responses under ? We have prepared a Muslim oath ifyou wish to use it.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE
( Through Translator ): I do
PRESIDENT: And wouldyou likea Muslimoath or nonMuslimoath ?
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator): Muslim oath
PRESIDENT Very Good
PRESIDENT Mr. Recorder , at this time would you please administer the Muslim oath .
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
RECORDER: Yes Sir
RECORDER : Please repeat, In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful, I , Muhammad Rahim swear by almighty God that my testimony before this Tribunalwill be the truth .
Page 5 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- - 01385- PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 7 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE: [RepeatsOath as necessary.]
PRESIDENT: Thank you.
RECORDER PRESENTS UNCLASSIFIED INFORMATION
PRESIDENT Mr. Recorder , please provide the Tribunal with the unclassified information
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
RECORDER: I am handing the Tribunal what has previously been marked as Exhibit R - the unclassified summary of the evidence relates to this detainee's status as an enemy combatant. A translated copy of this exhibit was provided to the Personal Representative in advance of this hearing for presentation the detainee. In addition, I am handing to the Tribunal the following unclassified exhibits , marked as Exhibit R - 2 thru R -5 . Copies of these Exhibits have previously been provided to the Personal Representative .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
PRESIDENT: The documents R - 1 thru R - 5 arc received and entered into the record.
TRANSLATOR ; ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT: Mr. MUHAMMADRAHIM , I will now explain how this process will proceed. The Recorderwill read each statement from the Unclassified Summary. We will then provide you a chance to respond. The Recorder, the Personal Representative, and the other Tribunal Members may ask you questions based on your responses.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE).
DETAINEE (ThroughTranslator) Yes Sir
PRESIDENT: Mr. Recorder at this time please read the unclassified summary of evidence for the .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
RECORDER : 3. The following factors support the determination that the detainee is an enemy combatant:
TRANSLATOR : (TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
Page 6 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- - 01385- PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 8 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
RECORDER : 3. a The detainee was a key logistics facilitator and trusted agent for Usama bin Laden within the inner ranks of al Qaida.
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE ).
PRESIDENT: Sir, at this time, if you have a statementthat you wish to make to refute that specificcharge, the floor is yours sir.
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE
( Through Translator): I don't understand
PRESIDENT: Sir, you will be givenan opportunityto read yourstatenientin at a later time.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) okay .
PRESIDENT Very good. Andifyou wouldlike to referto your writtenmaterials, you may do so.
TRANSLATOR: (TRANSLATION OF ABOVE )
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) I wish to do it.
PRESIDENT: But I want you to know that ifyouwould like to make that statementat one time at the end, youwould bepermitted do so as well.
TRANSLATOR: (TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE ( Through Translator): However you like I would do it.
PRESIDENT Alright, we will just take them just one statement at a time. So Mr. Recorder, would youpleasere -read3.a.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
RECORDER: 3.a. The detainee was a key logistics facilitator and trusted agent for bin Laden within the inner ranks of al Qaida.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
Page 7 of 79
PUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- - 01385- PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 9 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED PUBLICRELEASE
PRESIDENT And would like to make a statement regardingthat allegation at this time?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE : Yes
PRESIDENT Please proceed
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) the name of the GOD.
DETAINEE : (Readingstatementin Pashtu).
PRESDENT Could you pause forjust one and we will have that translated ?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE )
DETAINEE I will finish the fullparagraphand I willread.
PRESIDENT Oh very well, please proceed. I'm sorry .
DETAINEE: (Continuedreadingstatementin Pashtu).
Page8 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 10 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) To answer the first accusation : worked with Arabs as a translator from 1997 to 1999 in Kandahar and Jalalabad (Name of cities in Afghanistan ). In the beginning they paid me 3,500 Rupees and in 1999, 5,000 Pakistani Rupees. Do you know Arabs were Afghan allies during the invasion of Russia in Afghanistan ? Because Arabs are Muslims and Afghan are also Muslim they respected Arabs and saw them as our friends and honored guest. Everybody tried to work for Arabs because it was not a crime and it was a respectful job. On that time they didn't fight Americans and no one called them terrorists . I didn't have any friendship or recognition Arabs. I don't have political relation with them . I was just an Afghan translator who worked in hospital to translate for sick ladies and children Sometimes I translated for them when they went for shopping or sometimes when we took their cars for service translated to mechanics. I was their translator in agricultural fields. I worked in a few agricultural projects around Kandahar airport and agriculture farm Whenever they bought agricultural machinery or fertilizers I was with them . I traveled to Iran and Turkmenistan and Moscow Russia for getting rate and assessment of agricultural tools. Maybe you got different kinds of reports which are not as thorough and are false . All of these accusations are made by my personal enemies which the sources are my cousins. I don't have any relation with Sheik Usama bin Laden. Actually there is not any Afghan in al Qaida organization . It is an Arabic organization and they don't trust Afghan to be member of this organization . I don't accept these accusations and reject it. But accept after the collapse of Taliban escaped from my country due to animosity of my cousins On my way at the Selman Khielo Tangia , I was with Arabs for 15 days just because I was poor and I got some money for my travel expense to Pakistan . Do you know Afghans are very poor and they work for anyone but it is not meaning we have the ideology or we are in the same fox hole
PRESIDENT: Alright , at this time I will ask if anyone has any questions
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
PRESIDENT Mr. Recorder .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE)
RECORDER Yes Sir
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE)
RECORDER: Is Selman Khielo Tangia near Tora Bora?
Page 9 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 11of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFORPUBLICRELEASE
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE: Yes
TRANSLATOR: Yes .
DETAINEE Yes. It is near Tora Bora hand signs, the detainee gestured with his had and said this is Tora Bora and this is Selman KhieloTangia) .
RECORDER You saidyou got some money from Arabswhen youwere with them for 15 days at SelmanKhieloTangia. Howdid you earn that moncy
TRANSLATOR; ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE : ( Detainee started to answer the question in Pashtu) .
PRESIDENT: Okay let me stop. Please translate what has been said so far. We are trying to make a little short statements, because I don't want to paraphrase, I want to get a literal translation of everything. DETAINEE
( Through Translator ) Tora Bora Selman Tangia. Yes. But when the people they try to escaped from Afghanistan, the Afghan people through Selman Khielo Tangia way Detaineeinterruptedthe translatorto explainfor himselfin English)
DETAINEE: ( Speaking in English) Let me explain to you . ( Using hand signs, the detainee gestured with his hands) this is Tora Bora and this is Tangia Selman Khielo. Some people needs cross Tora Bora to Khughiani village and Tora Bora . This area out from Tora Bora , one Arab told me you stay here and you block this way, the people do not cross Tora Bora for Khughiani . Because the Tora Bora is bombardment maybe the people may be killing. Near the village are public and after that the people blame on Arab people. For this reason, I told the people are not coming from this way and please change the way. In that 15 days don't remember exactly, I got 25,000 Rupees from Arab people
RECORDER : When you said Arab People, do you mean al Qaida or?
DETAINEE Arab was , there was more pcople, all Arab was not al Qaida . This person was black , black skinned and his name is Hezabar .
PRESIDENT Could we get a spelling of that name please
DETAINEE Hezabar. Hezabar . H - E - Z - A - B - A -
RECORDER: Did you believe Hezabar was al Qaida?
Page 10 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 12 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE
DETAINEE : No, I don't have information about Hezabar.
RECORDER: Butyou 25,000 Rupees from Hezabar.
DETAINEE: Yes
RECORDER : Now you receivedthat money becauseyou were, you were tellingother peopleto stay away fromTora Bora.
DETAINEE Yes. He changedthe way , don't go from this way.
RECORDER Okay It that because you were a translator ? And that's... you were explainingto people who didn't?
DETAINEE Yes, as a translator. Yes , that's right.
RECORDER: Haveyou everbeen to ToraBora?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE: Not in this time . Another .
: RECORDER And you mentionUsamabin Laden, I heard you, you said Usamabin Laden,
DETAINEE: Usama bin Laden Sheikh Usama bin Laden, Sheikh Usamabin Laden .
RECORDER: In my mind trying to keep clear of when you were in, when you were near Tora Bora was toward the end of the Taliban, right before they fell towards, at the endof 2001?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE: Yes . In that after fall of the Government of Taliban .
RECORDER: Was Usamabin Ladenthere in ToraBoraat the sametime?
DETAINEE: Yes
RECORDER Didyoudo any, andyou mentionyou were a translator? Did youdo any translationworkduring time?
DETAINEE Forwho?
RECORDER: For Usama bin Laden ?
Page 11 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 13 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE
RECORDER Thank you very much.
PRESIDENT I have some questions from some of my fellow tribunal members, so we'll take some questions.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
TRIBUNAL MBR: You were said you were a translator, do you remember who were you translating for ?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE: In which time ?
TRIBUNALMBR: 1997 to 1999
DETAINEE did work for women and children for doctor, who is sick and go to a doctor in Kandahar City, in Jalalabad City , I translate to doctor and translate for them to the doctor about stomach problem or chest problem , I talk to the doctor, but I don't know this women to who for which person, but I know him was Arab children and Arab women. Because was, I did work with him in Kandahar in 2001 , and in Kandahar also I translated in... for them grocery shopping from bazaar, in... in agricultural field for... for them fertilizer and seeds, wheat and corn seeds. For this I buy a tractor and agriculture material from bazaar from the city market. I translate to him, and this person was the transport the administration of transport was name is Abu Tariq. His name is Abu Tariq.
PRESIDENT Could we get a spelling on that name.
DETAINEE: AbuTariq. A - B- U T -A -R- I-Q. AbuTariq.
PRESIDENT : Thankyou.
DETAINEE Then in agriculture field, we take care of all the inaudible) garden and was responsiblewas Abu Haman .
PRESIDENT: And couldyou spell that name?
DETAINEE A - B - U H - A - M - A - N . Abu Haman.
TRIBUNAL MBR: So let's go back to Abu , that was just one personwhich you were paid...worked for his wife ?
Page 12 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 14 of 80
PUBLICRELEASE
DETAINEE No, no. ThisAbuTariq was a responsiblethe vehiclemaintenance. For examplethesepeoplehad vehicle maintenancethis was engineernot that he was responsibleof move the car to work shop then to mechanical mechanic, mechanic, yes translatefor... to mechanic
TRIBUNALMBR: Was ... was he from Afghanistan ?
DETAINEE: Who?
TRIBUNAL MBR: AbuTariq.
DETAINEE No, Arab Muslim . If he Afghan person , he doesn't need for translation .
TRIBUNAL MBR : And the women , who were the women that you took grocery shopping and ...?
DETAINEE : Not women, the person, after the other person the person name was Saad S A - A -D
TRIBUNALMBR: In your statement you said, I was Afghan translator who worked in hospital to translate for sick ladies and children in the hospital . Were the ladies Arab ?
DETAINEE Yes .
TRIBUNAL MBR: Andthe childrenwereArab?
DETAINEE; Yes.
TRIBUNALMBR: But you don't remember ? Why were they there ? Why were they in Afghanistan, with their family, with their husbands ?
DETAINEE : Their husbands.
TRIBUNAL Whywerethey there? Were they with theirhusbands? Theirhusbands?
DETAINEE: Their husbands .
TRIBUNALMBR: Ifwith their husbands , were they soldiers ? They are soldiers ?
DETAINEE Wedon't haveyou know Afghans Muslimsis not soldiers. only a family... families. Afghanand Arab family was livingin Afghanistan. For this I was translation...Arabtranslator Youunderstand?
TRIBUNAL MBR; I think so .
DETAINEE You want more explanation , I try, I try . My language is not good .
Page 13 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 15 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI/ FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRIBUNAL MBR ; No you are doing very well. I'mjust surprised that there were many, were there many Arabic women in Afghanistan? I thought they were primarily there to be trained to fight Russians. That they brought their families, that I did not realize.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE No, this is after the Russian war . After the, the Russians left from Afghanistan The Mujahadeen government in Afghanistan they is fighting each other and after this Taliban was. I was translating during Taliban Regime from 97 to 99. Maybe you naming, ...naming these people as al Qaida people . Because Arab, Arab was not, all Arab is al but this was these people (inaudible).
TRIBUNAL MBR: Was it a possibility that some of the women were married lo al Qaida ?
DETAINEE: Yes.
TRIBUNAL MBR : The women were married to al Qaida. You may or may not remember.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE: Maybe, maybeor not, this, I'mnot sure.
TRIBUNAL MBR Didyou stop translatingin 1999?
DETAINEE: Yes. In 99 I stopped it because my father, he was sick with cancer. And we, am from Jalalabad City, from in Jalalabad , and I am now going and coming to every day thc hospital was treatment of my father in Peshawar, and I go to Peshawar then after that Arab told me you cannot work with our people you go and after that I started my father service in Peshawar In 2001, March, April, May, in June he's died .
TRIBUNALMBR: Then didyou go backto workwiththe Arabs?
Page 14 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 16 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE
DETAINEE: No, No. After this , after the fall of Taliban, from enemy, my cousins , I had some markets and shops, for this they wanted to kill me. And that time, after fall of Taliban , my cousin told him some people, the Northern Alliance. This person , he have the cars of Usama bin Laden, and his wife and children, his home. Ifhe come here to my home and you , no any Arab, no any children and no wife and woman . After I afraid maybe, give him some person money to kill me. For that I left my village and escaped to Pakistan. On way, I meet with Arab, and Arab told me if you stay with Arab for few days, we give you money. I started working with them for my people, not for Arabs, for protection. After that I was in one place, not for fighting. And the pcoplc is coming and I told them please change this way because if you are cross Tora Bora, in Tora Bora is bombardment maybe you killing. You change the way . After this I stay here in this place fifteen days and they gave 25,000 rupees After this I left to Pakistan
TRIBUNALMBR: And your familyleft withyou?
DETAINEE : No my family, I send them from my village Chaprehar from Jalalabad to Peshawar. Yes, and afterthat I left. And meet with thein in Peshawar
TRIBUNAL MBR; And then you went from ... when you left the country you went to Lahore ?
DETAINEE: Yes, I went to PeshawarandafterPeshawarI wentto Lahore.
TRIBUNALMBR: Can you tell me, I'm going back to , can you tell me name of the hospitalwhereyou translatedfor the womenand children ?
DETAINEE: It was a privateclinic of the doctor, a private clinic . I don't remember the name But we had two hospitals, one is the Sahaat Aama S - A - H - A A - T hospital Jalalabad City, and second hospital was for children the Pohanton hospital P -O - H - A - N - T - O - N ; this is for university hospital, for children. translating sometimes also private clinic but I don't remember,
TRIBUNALMBR: Doyou remember the name ofthe doctor, was he an Arabic doctor ?
DETAINEE Arab ? Was he Arab ? No.
TRIBUNALMBR The doctor was Afghan women were Arab .
DETAINEE: Thewomen.
TRIBUNAL MBR: These are all inJalalabad?
Page 15 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI/FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 17 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE : No, in Kandaharalso. InKandaharthe hospitalname is China Hospital, and the second hospital is Mirwis Hospital M - - R - W - I -S , Mirwis. translate to also to privatedoctors, privateclinic, I translate.
TRIBUNALMBR: So youtranslatedfor several, morethan one doctor?
DETAINEE: No. Not one doctor, women doctors and, for example, sometime , baby case was, we saw women doctor insteadof man.
TRIBUNALMBR; Did you translate for Afghan women or did you translate for Arab
women,
DETAINEE No, Arab people. Because I was translator for Arab People.
TRIBUNALMBR How many languages do you speak ?
DETAINEE: Farsi, Arabic, Urdu, a littleEnglish, andlittlelittleRussian,
TRIBUNALMBR And you said you went to Russia?
DETAINEE: Yes.
TRIBUNALMBR: When ?
DETAINEE 98 98 , or June May June
TRIBUNALMBR : So you wentwith Arabsto Moscowto translatefor them ?
DETAINEE No. Notwas withmeArabsinthis trip. Only he give methe addressof the person, he was Afghani. EngineerAbdul Rahaman or what name andhe told mego to this personinMoscow.
PRESIDENT: Could you say that name one more time and spell it. The person you were workingwith at this time.
DETAINEE; Engineer Abdul Rahaman.
PRESIDENT: Yes. Please spell that.
DETAINEE: No, no, this Abdul Rahaman was a one person, he had company in Moscow. He had company in Moscow. An Arab told me you go to this person and this person had information about agricultural materials.
PRESIDENT Okay , let's get the name spelled.
TRANSLATOR Abdul Rahaman. A - B - D - U - L R - A - H - A - M - A - N
PRESIDENT: Thankyou
Page 16 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 18 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE : R - A - H - A - M - A - N .
TRIBUNAL MBR What typeof equipinentwereyou lookingfor on this trip ?
DETAINEE Tractorsandcombine. Youknowcombine?
PRESIDENT Of course.
DETAINEE: Combine and something was for growing of sceds. The system putting seeds, and after that for growing. And also machine for fertilizer, for fertilizer. For spraying fertilizer
PRESIDENT: Groundapplication.
DETAINEE: Yes.
TRIBUNAL MBR: When they told you to go to
DETAINEE: Rahaman
TRIBUNALMBR: Rahaman. That's who you were working with when you were in Moscow ?
DETAINEE: No, no, I go to him, this person was fraud with . With this, he was in Moscow And he told him I have information of this, you give me money I ... (askedtranslator).
TRANSLATOR: Buying.
DETAINEE: I'm buying this thing from Moscow for you After that Arab think maybe he's fraud with me", then he says to me you go and you see this thing and, and also you send and fax catalogs and price of this thing and you stay here. If you get or see after that you send money and you (detainee speaking in Pashtu to translator).
TRANSLATOR: Purchase
DETAINEE: Purchase this thing If I went to this Moscow and this place and I just give me Abdul Rahaman, I don't think he this person, maybe this person was in this room cause they told me no, we don't know Abdul Rahaman Who is Rahaman After that, I lived in Moscow City and I stay in his... (detainee spoke to translator in Pashtu ).
TRANSLATOR: Detainee asked how to say try to find him .
DETAINEE: Try find him, but I don't, because the Russian, after the fall of the Russia the commonwealth is finish. one knows anything, it was joke
Page 17 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 19 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI/ FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: Do you want me to explain it? He tried to find Abdul Rahamanin Moscow, becausethe Arabs they thought he is cheating, the business, with Abdul Rahaman, he is cheatingthat's why he went to Moscowto see what's goingon there But, hedidn'tfind Adbul Rahaman, maybe he was in that meetingwhen he asked whereis Abdul Rahaman, they say we don't knowAbdulRahaman. He tried, was in MoscowCity to find AbdulRahaman, andhecouldn'tfindhim
TRIBUNAL MBR : So the sale never went through ?
TRANSLATOR : No.
DETAINEE : No.
TRIBUNALMBR: You hada passportwhenyou went to Russia?
DETAINEE: No up to Turkmenistanpassport. And after Turkmenistan, no passport.
TRIBUNALMBR: So is there, you don't have a passport? Was there ever a record that you were ever in Moscow ? Or anythingelse in writing? there anything showingthat youwent to Moscow ?
DETAINEE: Not anything.
TRANSLATOR; ( To detainee) . Do you understandthis.
DETAINEE: Yes . Yes , no visa , you know no passport. In Turkmenistan , 1 take the railway , and go to Moscow . It was rule if you have money , no or if you have visa , and your are Afghan , if you don't have visa , you give them money
TRANSLATOR: Corruption
TRIBUNALMBR: One last question from me. What you said you were working agricultural projects.
DETAINEE: Yes.
TRIBUNAL MBR In Kandahar Airport and Tarnak Farms. What kind of projects ?
DETAINEE; These projects was... people was make garden of grapes and growing sunflower, wheat, and ...(detainee asked translator).
TRANSLATOR : Watermelonand melon.
DETAINEE: Melon and Watermelon
PRESIDENT: What kind ofwheat?
Page 18 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFORPUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 20 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE : Wheat
PRESIDENT What kind? Do you know what kind ? There is Durum wheat, Red Spring Wheat, do you know what kind of wheat ? There is different kinds.
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator) is one kind.
PRESIDENT Whatdo they makeit into? Do they makeit into bread, do they makeit intopasta
DETAINEE: Bread, forbread
PRESIDENT: Only bread. Not noodles.
DETAINEE No, noodles. Ifyou have wheat, afterthat you can makewheat inflour, macaroni.
PRESIDENT: They just make it into flour ?
DETAINEE Yes.
PRESIDENT: What time of year do you plant it?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
DETAINEE AugustandSeptember.
PRESIDENT Whenyou put it in the ground?
DETAINEE August and September,
PRESIDENT When do you combine ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE : After six months March April, April Sometime if you want strong agriculture, you put in six months. You use more water and fertilizer. Some people leave for three months, it grows not strong.
TRIBUNALMBR You mention in one of your answers about the Northern Alliance , did the Arabs that you worked fight against the Northern Alliance ?
DETAINEE: No. I'm reject from the first day they came the day fighting in Afghanistan
TRIBUNAL MBR I think. I want to make sure you understand my question. The Arabs that you worked for, did they fight against the Northern Alliance ?
Page 19 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 21of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: ( To detainee ). Do you understand ?
DETAINEE It was with Taliban, for this Taliban was killinghimself for Arab people, because Arab was killingfor Taliban, you see
PRESIDENT: How did you know that ?
DETAINEE: Who?
TRIBUNALMBR: How did you know who they were fighting against ?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
TRANSLATOR: ( Talkingin Englishto detainee) This is whataretheydoing?
DETAINEE This is not was ( Detaineeaskedtranslator)
DETAINEE: After that I think in 99, the Arabs is started directly support of Taliban against Northern Alliance. After that I don't was, in trust with, with... Arab, because I was reject the fighting against NorthernAlliance
TRIBUNALMBR You came from Jalalabad?
DETAINEE: Yes Yes .
TRIBUNAL MBR: Doyou knowwhoGulbeddinHekmatyaris?
DETAINEE , I I , , ah I heard the name.
TRIBUNALMBR: Howdid you hear this name?
DETAINEE This is from still the 79. Because after the attack of Russia and Afghanistanhisnamewas a person, a popularname
TRANSLATOR: Bigname.
TRIBUNAL MBR: Bigname.
TRIBUNAL MBR: Did you ever translate between the Arabs and Gulbeddin ?
DETAINEE I don't have any, ( detainee started speaking Pashtu ).
DETAINEE
( Through Translator): I don't know Hekmatyarand I never work with him.
DETAINEE I'm not from the party of Hekmatyar
TRIBUNAL MBR So you never translated between Arabs and anybody who worked with Gulbeddin ?
Page 20 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 22 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE No.
TRIBUNAL MBR: Nothisparty?
DETAINEE No.
TRIBUNALMBR: Doyou knowwhoHaqaaniis?
DETAINEE I heard the name, I heard name ofHaqaani.
TRIBUNALMBR: But where did you hear the nameof Haqaani?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
DETAINEE This is a Russian Jihad time. He was a very popular name. And was a very big Afghan Mujahedeen commander against Russia Maybe I hear a I hear that name in 85 , 1985, because he was from South Afghanistan.
TRIBUNALMBR: Paktia ?
DETAINEE: Paktia Paktia.
TRIBUNALMBR: So did you ever work to translatefor the Arabs with Haqaaniemployees, Haqaanipeople?
DETAINEE: No. No. Haqaani is a Mullah. He speak Arabic language. Mullah people don't need for translation. Mullah people can speak Arabic language.
TRIBUNALMBR In 2001nearJalalabad, you would civilians" go that way, away from Tora Bora", and you wouldtell the Arabs go this wayto Tora Bora" or did youhelp the Arabs get out as well?
DETAINEE: No, only the for the provided of the people, please don't use this way Choseotherway
TRIBUNALMBR: And so because you were a translator, what would you tell the Arabs who werecoming
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE)
DETAINEE: ( Delainee speaking Pashtu at first . Didn't let translator translate ) .
DETAINEE Only one remember , in wireless I translated with the people , the commander who was head of American forces in Jalalabad . He was attacking Tora Bora and Arab people and he want to surrendering of Arab people to Americans . And after that is Makis Program (inaudible ) . Arab people told we have Yemanis people and we have other Arabic countries people. Under the, (detainee started speaking Pashtu ) .
Page 21 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDWFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 23 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) : ; the Arab countries under the supervision of the United Nations , the Ambassador of all those countries came and send the Yemanis and the other to their own countries .
TRIBUNALMBR: Soyou would use your cellphoneor yourwirelessradio?
DETAINEE WalkieTalkie.
TRIBUNALMBR: Walkie Talkie To talk between the Arabs .
DETAINEE : Afghan Commander
TRIBUNALMBR: And the Afghan Commander
DETAINEE: Inhelp ofU.S.forces.
TRIBUNALMBR: Okay. Northern Alliance or?
DETAINEE; Yes, Northern Alliance . Yes
TRIBUNALMBR: And you knew how to get hold of the Northern Alliance using your walkietalkie? Youcould, couldfind them andcommunicatewiththem .
DETAINEE Yes. I want to finish this problemand I also this commander know him, for this to help him with our commander. I told him to Arab, you surrender your people to finishthe problem , for this and also for safety. After that is I think I the Americanthrough Army told him no we want surrendercoming to us. After that is the program , this program is cancelled.
TRIBUNALMBR Okay thank you. You mention that you had a problem with your cousins?
DETAINEE; Yes.
TRIBUNALMBR: Did your cousins fight with the Northern Alliance ... for the Northern Alliance ?
DETAINEE: No, this is a, these was before was communist. With Najibularegime. Was working with a Khad, Khad is the name of the asked translator).
TRANSLATOR: Intelligence service.
Page 22 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 24 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI/FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE: Afghan Intelligence. have land and market, and that time these people was captured my property , because I had income from these markets and shops, monthly from 2,500 dollars, to 3,000 is more, then my cousins told me you would give me half of for us. I told him no this is my property . That is started the problem with me. And a these people was kill me , you can ask them , our village people is, my district is Chaprehar, you can ask from people about this problem . No , now all property is in my cousins hands They capture.
TRIBUNALMBR: Becauseyou werecapturedyourpropertywent yourscousins.
DETAINEE: Report, report from the coming of the American troops to Afghanistan, these captured, because I left from Afghanistan And these people was killingme.
TRIBUNALMBR: I have no further questions.
PRESIDENT Anyfollowup?
DETAINEE: In2001, sorry, in 2001, I'mtellingto AmericansI want to ifyou have solution( inaudible), want to sit with you and sittingany questionsyou havewithoutyou capturemeandput me injail.
TRIBUNAL MBR : Soyou talk withthe Americansaboutthis?
DETAINEE Yes, I , they told him no, we capture you you're a detainee. After that ( detainee ask question in Pashtu ).
TRANSLATOR: Interview. I correctedto we integrationafter we capture you.
DETAINEE I don't like put me in jail, why ? For this I went to Lahore. I live in Lahore and did business , honey and cloth from Peshawar to Lahore. And also don't honey after 2001. When I left from Afghanistan to Pakistan. (Detainee started speaking Pashtu )
DETAINEE
( Through Translator) stopped all his relation with his relative.
TRIBUNAL MBR: So you wereinPakistanfrom 2001early2002, until2007?
DETAINEE: Yes .
TRIBUNALMBR: So five or six years.
DETAINEE: Yes. I have two wives and seven children, who lives in Lahore now. Thistimein Lahore
Page23 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 25 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFORPUBLIC RELEASE
RECORDER : You mentioned, to make sure that I have this right in my you helpedto arrange for a cease fire.
DETAINEE Yes
RECORDER : Was temporary cease fire ?
DETAINEE: Yes .
RECORDER : In Tora Bora ?
DETAINEE Yes.
RECORDER: How longdo you think in days how long was that cease fire arranged for ?
DETAINEE: Thisiswas I thinknotcompletein 24.
RECORDER: So less than 24?
DETAINEE: What is the time now? From two, clock afternoon, started to morning eight o clock. Yes, I think American was. (Detainee started speaking Pashtu)
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) The American they were in a hurry otherwise it was possible to have cease fire .
RECORDER: That's it.
PRESIDENT: I see that we've been going for a little beyondan hour Sir, would you liketo take a shortbreak orare you comfortable?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE: Yes, I'mready.
PRESIDENT Then we will continue. I have just a few questions.
PRESIDENT : So you were makingbetween 1999 no 1997 to 1999you make between 3500Rupeesand 5000 a year?
DETAINEE :
PRESDENT: Pretty steady work ?
DETAINEE: No it was monthly. Monthly, monthly salary
Page 24 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 26 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE
PRESIDENT: Okay, alright
DETAINEE This is started from 3500 rupees and in 99 this is was, 99 was 5000 .
PRESIDENT : Alright
DETAINEE This is not equal to 100 hundred dollars. Yes .
PRESIDENT Alright
PRESIDENT: And in 1999you yourfather's illness, is thatcorrect?
DETAINEE: Yes, alright
PRESIDENT: And so then, at that point you quit your job , is that right?
DETAINEE Yes
PRESIDENT: Alright. What size was your family in 1999?
DETAINEE My family in 1999...in 1999, was onewife ,mymomma, my poppa, one sister, and Four children, one wife, andmomma, poppa, and sister.
PRESIDENT Okay, and whatwereyourothersourcesor income?
DETAINEE: At this time? In this time my poppa was sick I sell my... my land, (detainee startedspeakingPashtu).
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) I didn't have money , that's why I sold land
PRESIDENT So you , you quit your job , correct ?
DETAINEE Yes
PRESIDENT: And, because you didn't have an , then you sold your property ?
DETAINEE: Yes .
PRESIDENT; So did you sell it in small chunks or did you sell all at once ?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE: No, no, no, this is a few acres,
TRANSLATOR: So did you sell it in small chucks or did you sell it all at once?
Page 25 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDUFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 27 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDHFORPUBLICRELEASE
DETAINEE No, no, no, one part. Not all. I have more land in that time my shops, and my market was captured by Taliban
PRESIDENT So you owned a Bazaar ?
TRANSLATOR Said Market
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) Market and shops captured by Taliban.
So you are ableto draw any incomeat this time from that source?
DETAINEE: No.
RECORDER Mr. President if may for the translator to speak up?
TRANSLATOR; Sure, sure.
PRESIDENT I notice that you refer to the Arabs as friends and honored guests. Do you that ?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE Not mine, but for all Afghan people. You know , you had information about this. Afghan people have respect of Arab people. This is not only the Arab people came to Afghanistan , fighting with Mujahadeen against Russia, before Russia it was the Afghan people, you know, this Arabic language is our religion language, other and every person use speaking Arabic language Afghan people would respect him This is one. The second after that, is the starting war against Russian , the more Arab people is come to Afghanistan, ( inaudible ) this fighting it is not right in Afghanistan , the second The third was Arab was very intelligent people, these people was maybe in this area stating in Afghanistan , and used the, started marrying the Afghan womens . This is our Afghan rule, if for example if I hear from other people we marry Afghan people our blood is the company. The Arab people is the company not with Afghan people. On this the people was respect Arab people . Not only me. All Afghan people.
PRESIDENT: So Afghanpeople as a whole show respect to Arab people. Okay. But thesepeoplewerenotrespectablein someways, werethey?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE: This is was beforefightingwithAmericans.
Page26 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 28 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
PRESIDENT : Right. And at what.
DETAINEE: Please, please let me explain to you.
PRESIDENT Ofcourse
DETAINEE: Afghan people respect your people, because American was against Russianpeople, ( spokePashtu) .
TRANSLATOR: Americanswas also our allianceagainstRussia.
DETAINEE: Russia, we respect Americans. This is a, this is a the second situation lo know Afghans fighting with Americans.
PRESIDENT: Okay, this is very importantat what point, do you decidethat you're not going to support these Arabs that are fighting against the Americansand NorthernAlliance. When did that happen, Sir?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE)
PRESIDENT I want to know when that happened to you and not the Afghan people, to you specifically ?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
I'm from the first, the Arabic started fighting with the Northern Alliance, I was , I don't believe in it.
PRESIDENT And why ?
DETAINEE Because I don't , I don't respect between each other in Afghanistan .
PRESIDENT: What did ( interruptedby detainee )
TRANSLATOR: Listen, Listen. ( To detainee) Holdon.
PRESIDENT What did that Arab do or say to you to make you change your mind about thembeing a friend andhonoredguest? What, what happened?
TRANSLATOR ; ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE: No, everybody is fighting each other, and is kill our people, and they was destroyingour country and our village, I don't respecthim if he was my father, don't
PRESIDENT: And who was this , what was his name ?
TRANSLATOR; ( Explainedto President). Whenthe detaineesaid he, it meansthey, the Arab
Page 27 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 29 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE: Itwasn't one person. Yes.
PRESIDENT : Okay , okay . Understood. , you are one person, and you are relating to one person at a time , correct ?
DETAINEE: Yes
PRESIDENT: At what point does it become in your head, that this is not a good thing to participate in anymore ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE: Let me explain to you.
PRESIDENT Please.
DETAINEE After the fall of the Najeeb regime, Dr.Najeebullah.
PRESIDENT: Yes
DETAINEE: Started between AhamadshahMasood and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, I was rejected this the fighting.... I'ma ... I don't believe because this is... they destroyedAfghanistan, and this between each other fighting.
TRANSLATOR: (Speakingto President). Doyou understand?
PRESIDENT Yes , I did
TRIBUNALMBR: In the regime of Najeebullah.
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) After the collapse of...
DETAINEE: .
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator) Najeebullah government, it was several war in Afghanistan between Ahamadshah Masood and Gulbudin Hekamatyar, and he say I was the one who not support any of them.
PRESIDENT: So you didn't support Masood ?
DETAINEE
PRESIDENT: Or Gulbuddin ?
Page 28 of 79
PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 30 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE
DETAINEE No no after the fall of communist regime in Afghanistan , I started, I started floor business from Peshawar to Jalalabad, and sometime no fighting in Kabul, the situation was a little bit better and I went to Kabu also. ( Asking the President) do you know what's flour ?
PRESIDENT Yes, yes, yes.
: And I reject... I rejected to fighting between Afghans, and after that is Taliban is come, the Afghanistan situation was very bad, and anybody to Taliban told me they want peace. Everybody in Afghanistan told hini welcome . After that is the Taliban is come to he started war with Northern Alliance . After I rejected this is not good, yesterday you me we didn't fighting each other, make peace with him, he is also Mujaheed, he is fighting for Afghanistan freedom . He's not because the ISI supported was supporting . Maybe Northern Alliance other people supported For the finish of Afghanistan was this war And after that the Arab is started directly support directly company with Taliban against Northern Alliance , at that time I reject him also, and also I was busy with my father, because my father was sick .
PRESIDENT So you wereprimarilyattendingto yoursick father?
DETAINEE; Yes
PRESIDENT Didyou do a smallamountofwork translating?
DETAINEE:
PRESIDENT: Ornoneat .
DETAINEE No.
PRESIDENT : Absolutelynot even once
DETAINEE No. Absolutely no.
PRESIDENT: And this was during what years again ?
DETAINEE : This is, remember in October. I think 18 October was. I finish started my work with Arabs.
PRESIDENT : 1999.
DETAINEE: 99 , 2000, 2001 my father was in April is died. And after that in April I was in my home started ( inaudible ).
PRESIDENT Didyou eversee Bin Laden ?
DETAINEE: Yes.
Page 29 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 31of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE
PRESIDENT How many times ?
DETAINEE: Maybe three, four times.
PRESIDENT : Thefirst timeyou saw him , describethe first time.
DETAINEE Yes. The first time I see him 1997 in Jalalabad.
PRESIDENT: And what was he doing ?
DETAINEE I see him prayingin a Mosque
PRESIDENT : You didn't talk to him ?
DETAINEE: No, no Only Asalamalakem
PRESIDENT: Sobut youdidexchangepersonalgreetingwith him .
DETAINEE No.
TRANSLATOR Yes, ( Translatorclarified).
DETAINEE: Yes yes, as an Afghantranslator, I went to the mosquefor pray, in the mosque, mosqueAsalamalekem .
PRESDENT So you were close enough to touch him?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE Yes, I shakehand
PRESIDENT And please describe the next time
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
DETAINEE
( Through Translator) In Kandahar two times.
DETAINEE And Tora Bora I see him once.
PRESIDENT Okay, the second time describe that please.
TRANSLATOR : (TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
Page 30 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDFOR PUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 32 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE In Kandahar, maybe you had information about the family system of the Arabs . The Arab was at ( inaudible) and inside was Arab . Quarters, small quarters and Arab lives in this. In Afghan , translator and other labors lives outside . Outside rooms. And I see in one trip, he's was going from complex to outside . And I see him in car, in pickup. I told him asalamalakem from far ,
PRESIDENT Didhe rememberyou, from when you methimbefore?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE)
DETAINEE: It was 97 Jalalabad I see, and I see him inKandahar it was in 1999, yes Sir
TRANSLATOR : ( Asked detainee in Pashtu ) Did he remember you ? ( Detainee kept talking through the translator without hearing the question and the translator kept trying to complete the question) .
PRESIDENT: I'm just curious, when you met the first time and you exchanged the proper greeting did he remember you the next time when you saw him, was there a recognition?
DETAINEE: I don't know . I don't ask him he remember me or not.
PRESIDENT Sure. I mean there wasn't something like you didn't hug or pat each other on the back?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) time we didn't shake hands
PRESIDENT Okay, is that unusual?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) was in a vehicle .
PRESIDENT Okay . And then the third .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE )
DETAINEE
( Through Translator) remember that much, the third time, but he was in the same compound,
hewentsomewhere.
PRESIDENT: But did you exchange any words.
Page31 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI/ FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 33 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE No, just the first time.
PRESIDENT: Justthe one, just the firsttime.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE )
DETAINEE Asalamalakem .
PRESIDENT And the fourthtime?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE: ToraBora
PRESIDENT: And describehow that went
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
DETAINEE Tora Bora I see him and he was in place, and after that I see him more peopleis coming. ( Speakingin Pashtu).
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) The people come in mask.
DETAINEE: They had PKs and rocket launcher and I surprise what's the problem ? And he was in small cave and I see him. After that when I see Ladenwas
PRESIDENT And what year was that , that you saw him in Tora Bora?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE 2001. Yes.
PRESIDENT What month?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE: Endof Novemberor first December.
PRESIDENT Okay ; and about how close about when the bombing started and please .
DETAINEE: Duration. Durationthat bombardment.
PRESIDENT: Okay, and do you know approximatelythen when heleft?
DETAINEE: No.
PRESIDENT But you werestillhangingaroundeven thoughthe bombswerefalling?
Page 32 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI BLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 34 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE (ThroughTranslator) the placewhich we hide that night there was no bombardment.
PRESIDENT: Okay, wouldherecognizeyou ifyoumet himagain?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
DETAINEE: Maybe, maybe
PRESIDENT: Yourecognizedhim .
DETAINEE : Maybe or not .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ): IfI tell the truth, I don't know, I'm not in his mind. You know me or
not
PRESIDENT : Fair enough. Fair enough I'mjust wondering when you meet someone that you met before, there is a facial expression, that you recognize him. And yousaidyou never got any of that from him ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator): No, youknow they're highclasspeople.
PRESIDENT Okay, did you ever inaudible) (Interruption from detainee speaking Pashtu
PRESIDENT Alright, Didyou ever speakwith anyonearoundBinLaden ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OFABOVE).
DETAINEE One person. His name is Hamza.
PRESIDENT And when was that, please?
DETAINEE InToraBora.
TRANSLATOR: When?
DETAINEE : Whenthe fightingstartedandbombardment.
PRESIDENT: Okay, and did you initiate the conversation or did Hamza ?
TRANSLATOR : (TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
Page 33 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 35 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE ( Through Translator): He asked some questions from him.
PRESIDENT Okay , and what else did you talk about ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) talk to him, and I say I have a very hard time, would give me some money, and then the guy give him5000rupees.
PRESIDENT So and did he ask for anything in return ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator): Yes, I talk to him I him I'mleaving don't have money. I need some moneyand gaveme money.
PRESIDENT: Any other up questions?
RECORDER Sir I do have one more question .
RECORDER You say Hamza, is there any otheranyotherpart of hisname.
DETAINEE: inaudibleG or C ) C - H -A -M -I - D .
RECORDER: Do youknowifhe had any relationshipwith Usamabin Laden?
DETAINEE: Who?
RECORDER: Hamza.
DETAINEE This Arab people, this Hamzaknowhim as each other
RECORDER: Okay understand
DETAINEE But I don't have information about relationship with Usama bin Laden. Who is his cousin, his bodyguard, who is he.
RECORDER: No problem, so that'sall.
TRIBUNAL InKandahar,
DETAINEE: Yes
TRIBUNALMBR; There was a big Arab compound and you lived and worked outside the Arab compound?
Page 34 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 36 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE Yes
TRIBUNALMBR: Who are the Arabs in the compound ?
DETAINEE: (Inaudible)
TRIBUNALMBR: And that's where Usama bin Ladenwould stay?
DETAINEE: Yes.
TRIBUNALMBR: And in Tora Bora there were many caves ?
DETAINEE: Yes.
TRIBUNALMBR And the Arabs were staying in the caves ?
DETAINEE: Yes
TRIBUNAL MBR: IncludingUsamabin Laden?
DETAINEE Yes
TRIBUNALMBR And you would help them with translation, the Arabs. You would help them with translationduring that time?
DETAINEE: .
TRIBUNAL MBR And that's why they paid you that 25,000 rupees.
DETAINEE Rupees.
TRIBUNALMBR: To help translate, to tell you go there or you go there?
DETAINEE Yes. It was equal500 dollars.
TRIBUNALMBR: Yes sir
TRIBUNAL MBR: Thank you that'sall I have.
TRIBUNAL MBR: Where were the shops and business , in which city?
DETAINEE: InChaprehardistrict, C - H - A - P - R - E - H - A - R
IBUNALMBR: Okay , Chaprehar district.
DETAINEE : Chaprehar district, in Jalalabad Nangarhar province Ten kilometers from Jalalabad city. South
TRIBUNAL MBR ; Andyourlandwas there?
Page 35 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 37 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE : In Chaprehar ?
TRIBUNALMBR: And then you were doing your translating that was Kandahar and Jalalabad?
DETAINEE Yes .
TRIBUNALMBR AndyourfatherlivedinPeshawar?
TRIBUNALMBR Wherewas your fatherwhenhe was sick? YourFather?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE: InJalalabad.
TRIBUNALMBR You go from Kandahar ?
DETAINEE: To my home Chaprehar. Once I go go to Peshawar coming for treatmentof my father (detaincespoke to translatorin Pashtu).
PRESIDENT: Any other follow - up ?
PRESIDENT : Pleasecontinue
RECORDER : 3.b. The detaineewas a close associateof Usamabin Ladenand was in charge of operations which consisted primarily of collecting intelligence
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
PRESIDENT: And think we've covered enough information thal you are categorically denying that, is that the case ?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) Yes,
PRESIDENT At this time if you havesomethingpreparedthat you would like to read in response, you may do so orjust do whatever you want.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator) I will read and if you ask mefor explanationI will answer.
PRESIDENT: Very good. Pleaseproceed.
DETAINEE (Reading his statement in Pashtu)
Page 36 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 38 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) Answer to your second accusation: I want to make clear to you I don't have any personalfriendshipto Usamabin Ladenor know himfrom the past, because I was no Jihad commanderor party leader. I don't have Taliban movement membershipcither I am an ordinary Afghan who workedas a translatorwith them .
PRESIDENT: Okay, can I stop you, when yousay with them, theyareal Qaida?
DETAINEE : Arab, Arab people.
PRESIDENT: Arabs , who some were also al Qaida ? Correct ?
DETAINEE: This... It's up to you.
PRESIDENT: Some were al Qaida , some weren't , is that a truthful statement ?
DETAINEE Basically the Arab people is not all al Qaida. And the second, we, if we did work with Arab people this is not, not we have enemies with Americans This is not to ...(Detaineeasked translator inPashtu).
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator): This is not meaningwe are againstand Americansand we support them .
PRESIDENT: And I understand that, but what I want focus in on specifically, is this, there were Arabs there, correct ?
DETAINEE: Yes
PRESIDENT Some were al Qaida, correct ?
DETAINEE: Yes,
PRESIDENT: Some were not al Qaida, but you worked for any Arab, it didn't make any differenceif they were al Qaidaor weren't al Qaida?
DETAINE: Yes .
PRESIDENT: Okay . Thank you please proceed.
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator): It is a big a big mistake if we think an Afghan is the operation commander al Qaida organization. I don't have any military or intelligence service experience or ability , just accusing someone with something which is not true and unjust. It is a tactic to keep me in prison I reject this accusation .
PRESIDENT: Alright, any questions, Mr. Recorder.
Page37 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 39 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
RECORDER : Nosir
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE; No Sir.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
TRIBUNAL MBR: NoSir
PRESIDENT Just, let me, I want to make this clearinmyown mind, so please forgive ifI soundlike I'mrepeatingthe same question. You knew that someof the Arabs wereal Qaida, right?
DETAINEE Yes
PRESDENT : And you knew that some of themweren't ?
DETAINEE Yes.
PRESIDENT You provided translation services to everyone ?
DETAINEE: Yes.
PRESIDENT Thank you Please proceed.
RECORDER : 3.c. The detainee, a senior al Qaida , helped al Qaida leaders cscape fromAfghanistan.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
PRESIDENT And at this time, if you would like to read your prepared statement, pleaseproceed.
DETAINEE: (Readinghis statementin Pashtu).
DETAINEE
Page 38 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED // FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 40 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE
Through Translator ) ; Answer to your third accusation : want to make clear about al Qaida organization in its formation is only Arabs. They don't have any Afghan member But the Afghan worked for them as a driver, translator, watchman and labor. It is not possible for an Afghan to be a member of al Qaida organization . If you force me or push me to that organization it is not justice to accuse me as member of this organization. I didn't know any member of al Qaida or their leader didn't help or know about their movement and escaping or their transportation I wasn't involved in any of this . Taliban leadership has the responsibilities of al Qaida movement and transportation , because they lost their power and government for their protection. They sacrificed thousands of people for them and you will see in the future how many of them kill themselves for al Qaida organization . I have any interest in this kind of work and I don't take any responsibility. Pashtun have a proverb can't fight you I will kill your father. The detainee put something else at the end . You don't have the power to fight against Taliban , and you want to kill me or arrest me,
PRESIDENT: Mr. Recorder
TRANSLATOR (TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
RECORDER During the time you were in Tora Bora, who asked you, or who requested you to arrange for the ceasefire? When you talked to the NorthernAllianceon the radio, who askedyouto do that?
TRANSLATOR: (TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE Hezabar
RECORDER: And do you know whether or not, you said he was an Arab , but you don't know, know ifhe was al Qaida ?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ): I know he was Arab, but I don't know if he was al Qaida or not.
RECORDER: And do you know whether or not he had any relationshipwith anyone in al Qaida ?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE No.
RECORDER: And is it, do you know if the Arabs used that time during that ceasefire, those 18 hours, did they use that time as an head start to, or could they have usedthat time as an headstart to escape fromTora Bora?
Page 39 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI/ FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385 - PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 41of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) He say I didn't know about that.., that about their tactics , after that the Arabspeoplewere lessthanbeforein the area. But I try to contact with myownauthoritiesto helpour Afghanpeople.
RECORDER So it sounds like maybe they could have taken advantage of the ceasefire
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE)
DETAINEE I don'tknow
RECORDER : Understand So how much longer did you remain in the area, if so how much long did you stay there after the ceasefire ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) And the next day I left Tora Bora. Because they war was getting harder and harder and I left
RECORDER Thankyou
PRESIDENT Mr. Personal Representative.
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE Sir,
MBR: You say Hezabaraskedyou to arrangethe ceasefire?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
DETAINEE: ( Inaudible). I think . my impression was the person was not expert in Arabic language, he was talking with Hezabar in Arabic language for peace. After this Hezabar lold me, you speak with him, what he want, if I started speaking with commander was Hagi Zaman . From American side, from Afghanistan. After that I translated and I was, he's made program for surrendering the people and how we can surrender , how much and which we, this ... because after that start of bombardment, this duration , after that is, the commander told him Americans don't want this, don't need . They want surrendering to ... directly to Americans. After that we told them no ( inaudible) After that started more bombardment,
TRIBUNALMBR: And you were paid 25,000 rupees.
Page 40 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 42 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE: Yes .
TRIBUNALMBR To divertthe people, the Afghanpeople, or to make the call, why did you get the 25,000, just 25,000?
DETAINEE This is not myself, after that two three days told him, pleasegive me money. After that he gave me 3,000, 5,000, also I got from Hamza 5,000 and, and this... between15-17days, completed25,000rupees.
TRIBUNALMBR: Did they give you the radio to talk with them ?
DETAINEE: At that time, translated for the... commanders American side commanders. I translate.
TRIBUNALMBR: You translate from Arabic to ...
DETAINEE Arabic to Pashtu
TRIBUNALMBR: To Americancommanders?
DETAINEE: No no, they were Afghan commanders to Arabs Afghan commanderswith American
TRIBUNALMBR: And why did they choose you to do this, why... why you? You hadn't workedwith them in years?
DETAINEE that time... In that time in this place, not was other Afghan . In time.
TRIBUNALMBR And why did you , tell me again , how did you get to be where ? Why , what did you happen to be at Tora Bora that time ?
TRANSLATOR: (TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
DETAINEE: I want to help cross border to Pakistan. I use SulaimanKhai Valley, for this to go to Pakistan. I left my country. In SulaimanKhai Valley, I meet with him ; see him he was speaking with ( detainee asked translator).
TRANSLATOR : Donkey Man
Page 41 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 43 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE: Donkey Man Mule, Mule man , Mule person, he had mule. I told him please take our grocery to upstairs /outside. It was problem . After that the people see me , oh Muhammad Rahim, please translate for him, working After that he tell me he want me to tell him we give him 500 rupees to take this grocery upstairs. This mule person , I translate to Arabs . The Arabs told me to stay if I want to stay with me for two days in this place. I told him if he give me money , he gave me 5,000 rupees at that time. And after that he told me " give you more money, if you stay with me for translation " After that , in this site near Tora Bora, 17 days, all this duration , I get from him 25,000 rupees.
TRIBUNALMBR: So, if I may follow -up ? You meet the man with the mule and he ask you help me go the Arabs and take the groceries?
DETAINEE No, no, this guy Hezabarwas, inSulaimanKhaiValley
TRIBUNALMBR So Hezabar sees you and said help me with the groceries ?
DETAINEE: No he was Afghan , Hezabar I don't ( detainee started speaking in Pashtu )
DETAINEE
( ThroughTranslator) I want to say about Hezabar, I didn't know Hezabarbefore, and at that time, there was an Afghan mule guy. They make ... want guy to take something upstairs. The guy need somebody to translate Arabic to Pashtu
TRIBUNALMBR: So the mule man.
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ): The mule man .
TRIBUNALMBR: Someone can speak between Afghan and Arab
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) Arab yeah
TRIBUNAL MBR: And he said come help me
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) Come help me
TRI MBR: Accept the supplies.
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) Yes
TRIBUNAL MBR: Take the supplies to the Arabs in their caves .
Page 42 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 44 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
PRESIDENT: Hey, let me stop you ( translator) Tell him (delainee to answer the questions, I knowthat you are answeringcorrect, becauseI heardthem too, butcouldyouaffirmthat statement, isthat correct?
TRIBUNAL MBR: Do you understand me ? The man with the mule asks you , I need someone who can speak Pashtuand Arab ,
PRESIDENT: Is that correct ?
DETAINEE : Yes
PRESIDENT So you go with the man , with the man with the mule, and together you go up to the caves
DETAINEE Yes, that time was no bombardment. The people is afraid , and Arab is was need to mule
TRIBUNALMBR: To take the groceries and supplies.
DETAINEE And supplies.
PRESIDENT: To the caves
DETAINEE: caves . This was this place was no caves .
TRIBUNALMBR: Whichplace?
DETAINEE : Not caves. Near to Tora Bora this place. After that is because I think was this person or something, cannot take the man the food ?
PRESIDENT Okay, and who is the food for ?
DETAINEE: Arab
PRESIDENT And when you say Arab , some of these are al Qaida, some are not?
DETAINEE: This is...It'supto you.
PRESIDENT I don't want, I do not want to assume anythingin evidence. I need you to tell me if it is or if it isn't. Becausethis is very important, okay.
DETAINEE Yes
PRESIDENT : So you take these groceries with the mule man to whom ? Or, who did you give that food to?
TRANSLATOR: (TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
Page 43 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 45 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE: No, I didn't, I don't take him this food for Arab The problem was , between Arab and Afghan mule man. The mule man wasn't... he cannot speak in Arabic language.
PRESIDENT And you were assisting him?
DETAINEE: Yes assisted him,
PRESIDENT Okay.
DETAINEE I contacted with him .
PRESIDENT So youdon'thave anythingto do with the food?
DETAINEE: No, I don't what is that this food .
PRESIDENT: Okay, butyou accompany were with them ? Helpingthem talk ?
DETAINEE: ( Detainee laughed ). Maybe.
PRESIDENT No, not maybe, need a yes or no. You're helping (interrupted by mbr).
TRIBUNAL MBR: You were translatorbetweenAfghanand Arab ?
DETAINEE : I translated, for example, the problemwas this, how much you want, you want I him, 1,000 rupees. I told him no it's more, I told him he want more, I told himI gave him 600 rupees.
PRESIDENT: Okay.
DETAINEE After that the problem solved.
TRIBUNAL MBR: Once you helped them , the man with the mule to speak to the Arabs.
DETAINEE Yes.
TRIBUNALMBR Thensome people with the Arabs say hey its MuhammadRahim , I know him Come speak with us After that, that they asked you to help ( detaineeinterrupted).
DETAINEE: No, no Afghan, no I see this was problem. I , the Afghan told me, you can no, no, ifyou can translatethis problem, you can helpme. After that I solved the problemwith 600 rupees. I.
TRIBUNAL MBR : And so you solved the problem and helped the man with the mule speak with the Arabs
DETAINEE : Yes.
Page 44 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 46 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED //FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRIBUNAL MBR; And after that some of the people, some of the Arabs recognizedyou ? They knew you?
DETAINEE Yes .
TRIBUNAL MBR: And they say can you stay with us and help us more ? Yes
DETAINEE Yes ,
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE )
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) No didn't know me when I was their translator. ( Then detainee started speaking English) .
DETAINEE: No Hezabar have any information about me. He was before translating me he told me if I can speak Arabic language and I said yes. Could you stay with us for two days?
TRIBUNAL MBR: Ah?
DETAINEE : I told himyes.
PRESIDENT: So you don't . So he doesn't know you from before ?
DETAINEE No.
PRESIDENT Okay, that's the first time you meet?
DETAINEE: This first time.
PRESIDENT But heimmediatelysees that he can use a man with your talent?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE Yes.
PRESIDENT Thankyou.
TRIBUNALMBR: Okay, that's all I have, thank you.
TRIBUNAL MBR: Is that man Hezabar ?
DE Hezabar
TRIBUNALMBR: You were translating to inule man and Hezabar?
DETAINEE: Yes
Page45of 79
UNCLASSIFIED PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 47 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
PRESIDENT: Mr. Recorder you may .
RECORDER: Just onemorefollow up questionssir
RECORDER: When you left Tora Bora for Suliaman Khia Valley, after the ceasefire, you said you left the followingday, did you leave by yourselfor how many peoplewerewith you?
DETAINEE: I was
RECORDER: Just youandnobodyelse.
DETAINEE Yes.
RECORDER That's all .
PRESIDENT Mr. Personal Representative.
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE: No. Noquestions.
PRESIDENT: Please proceed.
RECORDER 4.d. A source stated that an insurgent commander, whose intent was to attack coalition forces, and the detainee transported twelve 107mm rockets from Salaab Valley to Tag Valley, Afghanistan, on 17 April 2005.
TRIBUNALMBR: that 3.d or 4.d ?
RECORDER: Correctionto the record, that was 3.d.
TRANSLATOR: (TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE: ( Reading his statement in Pashtu) .
DETAINEE ( Through ): Answer to fourth question: swear God ( or Allah) I don't know where is Tag Valley or Selaab Valley
PRESIDENT Okay, is there another valley that sounds like that, I mean, could there be a mispronunciation?
DETAINEE: No.
DETAINEE
Page46 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 48 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
( ThroughTranslator: In all 40 years of my life I didn't hear these names. I don't have any relation with any commander who is involved in the war now I tell the truth I am against the war and killing and sabotage or destroying I hate these things. never took any steps against Karzai government. ( translator said he wanted to correct something ).
PRESIDENT Please
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ): I never take any steps or think about it to take any steps against Karzai government or American
PRESIDENT: Okay, lets stop here, then we will correct for the record , are you saying that you are just now discovering that you would prefer that as the better translation ?
TRANSLATOR: Yes, sir
PRESIDENT: Okay, Please read that line for the record again,
DETAINEE
( ThroughTranslator) I never take any steps or think about take any steps against Karzai government or American.
PRESIDENT Very good. For the record that will be subplanted for I never took any for Karzai governinent or American Please proceed
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) Until June 25 , 2007 I lived in Lahore Pakistan with my two wives and 7 children and I worked to make money for my family expenses . I don't know about the rockets and their transportation Hey American I hope you dojustice. I ask you for justice all these accusations are false and made by iny enemies who are my cousins.
PRESIDENT; Didyou wish to add anything to that?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
DETAINEE : ( Spoke in Pashtu, now English). Ifyou have questions, I can explain to you
PRESIDENT: Mr. Recorder,
RECORDER: No questions sir.
PRESIDENT Mr. Personal Representative.
Page 47 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 49 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFORPUBLICRELEASE
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE No, sir
TRIBUNAL MBR: Doyou know where the TagaabValley is inAfghanistan?
DETAINEE: Tagaab Valley? Tagaab yes.
TRBUNAL MBR: Whereis thatlocated?
DETAINEE: Tagaab is in Kabul.
TRIBUNALMBR: Howcloseis the TagaabValleyto Jalalabad?
This is more from 150 kilometers maybe.
TRIBUNALMBR; That's all have.
DETAINEE : I heard name of Tagaab Valley, I don't see
TRIBUNALMBR: You neverbeento TagaabValley? Do you knowwhereitsat
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) They have a famous fruit The kind of fruit which don't know the name of the fruit . Pomegranate . Pomegranate.
PRESIDENT: Pomegranate.
PRESIDENT Little seeds inside
DETAINEE : Yes, inside.
PRESIDENT: Pomegranate.
TRANSLATOR: Yes, Pomegranate.
DETAINEE: Pomegranate
TRIBUNAL MBR; What kindof work did youdoin Lahore?
DETAINEE; Honcy, honeybusiness. Honey Honeyfrom Peshawarto Lahore, and clothes
PRESIDENT: Textiles.
DETAINEE: Textiles. From Chinese textile in Lahore, in my home my wife is makes Panjabi clothes, and also the ( detainee started speaking Pashtu ).
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) The also sold on streets in Lahore.
Page 48 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 50 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRIBUNAL MBR: Both wives ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE)
DETAINEE: No, Two was livinginonehome
TRIBUNALMBR: You live in Lahore ?
DETAINEE: Yes
TRIBUNAL MBR: Lahoreis a very expensivecity. Is it not?
DETAINEE: Yes, the main city is very expensive, and I was live in a village outside LahoreCity
TRIBUNALMBR: And whatwas the nameof the city ?
DETAINEE This name is Fatieghar. F - A - T - I - E - G - H - A -R . Fatieghar .
PRESDENT; How far is that from your village ?
DETAINEE 15 kilometers. 15 kilometers east from (inaudible) .
TRIBUNAL MBR: Didmake enough money from these two inaudible ) ?
DETAINEE : Because my children after come from school in the afternoon, my children with mamma, make com water, (asks translator )
TRANSLATOR: Boiling
DETAINEE: Boiling in water, in the afternoon , they sell it on the streets . And after the help coming from children , in the is the 150 rupees , and also from morning to night they sell the honey in the streets and shops . I made money like 200, or 300 rupees, also my wives make clothes Panjabi, and selling them we made money on this
TRIBUNAL MBR : How did, describe the honey business. Didyou have bees, or how did yousellhoney?
DETAINEE: No, no, I bring it from Peshawar Honey Market. Peshawar have honey market . And after that , we clean the honey , we make it one kilo, . bottle , half kg, 250 milligram , three kg, five kg We sell it to different shops.
TRIBUNAL I see. Didyou buy the honey, was it the honeycomband everythingin Peshawar?
DETAINEE: Yes
Page49 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 51of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR ( Askeddetaineein Pashtu) .
DETAINEE: No, no
DETAINEE
( ThroughTranslator) wasn'tthat dirty, it was clean but not that clean, whenwe bought it, it was like clean, but we cleaned it a little bit more clean than when we bought it.
TRIBUNAL MBR : Do you buy it in big containers ?
DETAINEE: Yes, yes. 50 kgs, 50 kgs , and sometimes it was more dirty, after that there was a plant in Lahore, they worked on honey business , and have a branch in Lahore , 150 thousand, they use a boiling system, they clean it and they have a filtration system
TRIBUNALMBR How far is Peshawar from Lahore ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
DETAINEE : 450 Kilometers.
TRIBUNALMBR: So, howoftendidyougo back and forth ?
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE: This is up to monthly sometimes, for example I go monthly, three inonths, sometime go, one week, sometimefor exampleif I have more peoplewho needshoney, afterthat I go to Peshawar.
TRIBUNAL MBR: So do you drive your car?
DETAINEE: No, I don't have a car.
TRIBUNAL MBR: So how do you go back and forth ?
DETAINEE : Buses. Big buses. Transportbig transport. Public transport.
TRIBUNALMBR: And when you buythis big50 kilogram( interruptedby detainee)
DETAINEE : Yes, for example if I have to three cans, I bring with me, if I have more for example, 10 cans, get more people to help me with the system. ( Detainee started speaking ) .
DETAINEE
( Through Translator): Ifit was small amount, he brought it with himself; ifit was large amount they deliver to him. Deliver and shipping.
DETAINEE ; Delivery system
Page 50 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 52 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRIBUNALMBR: And is yourmotherand yoursisterlivingwithyou at this time?
DETAINEE No, only my two wives. Sometime my momma she is coming from Peshawar to see my children.
TRIBUNALMBR: Is your still living in Peshawar ?
DETAINEE: Peshawar
TRIBUNAL MBR: With your sister?
DETAINEE: My sister Nangharhar. Now have information about my lives with my children in Lahore
TRIBUNALMBR: So before you mother lived in Peshawar, and now she lives in Lahore with your children.
DETAINEE Peshawar yes
PRESIDENT: And now your motherlives in Lahore?
DETAINEE: Lahorewith mychildren.
TRIBUNALMBR: Whendidshe move, whendid she moveto Lahore
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE: This ICRC told me this week in a meeting in December she, my mother (mother /daughter inaudible) told them to tell me satisfy I live with your children in your house.
TRIBUNAL MBR: After you left, you told, you said this before but I just want to make sure after you left Tora Boro, is that when you went to Lahore or you went to Peshawar,
DETAINEE: Peshawar, I lived in Peshawar
TRIBUNAL MBR How long?
DETAINEE Maybe 6 months I live in Peshawar after this.
TRIBUNAL MBR: With your
DETAINEE: To Lahore
TRIBUNAL MBR: That's all I have.
PRESIDENT : So your cousins have made up this story about rockets to get you put in jail is that right?
Page 51 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI/ FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 53 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE : Yes.
PRESIDENT: Okay.
DETAINEE : You is
you ask from village people are Mohammad Rahim had problem with his cousin or not or you ask from village people how is Muhammad Rahim . After that if they tell you he is the son of Usama bin Laden I believe you . This is told you, we have problem in Afghanistan Could I explain to you?
PRESIDENT Please do
DETAINEE: In Afghanistan , the first, we have tribe problem , the second we have political problem , because we had Mujahadeen, and we have communist people. And this communist people all is working with Karzai government. And this communist people is enemy of Mujahadeen. Because American was support Mujahadeen . And the Mujahadeen was the fighting of the communist regime. For this now, the communist is trying to beating Mujahadeen , by Americans, by his coalition You please, you in the time we made problem each family problem. More problem . And this is right Without no doubt, no lie.
PRESIDENT Okay, let me ask you this, so your cousins haveset you up with these lies ? Isthat ?
DETAINEE: Yes
PRESIDENT: A lot of times if someone wants to get you in trouble with a lie, a big lie, this is a big lie then right?
DETAINEE: Yes
PRESIDENT But for putlittlebit truth in it to get peopleto believeit. Istherea little bit of truth ? Did you ever have anythingto do with anythingof this natureso that we can know whatyou did andwhat you didn't?
DETAINEE No.
PRESIDENT: Doesthat makesense.
DETAINEE: Yes I agree with you. ask me, you gave him five million rupees lo one person ? What for ? I said ah, if I have five million rupees , if the person he have five million rupees , the first he make his life . My children , small children , which is five years, seven year, nine years , ten years, he a sells corn in the street. My wife is there all day tailoring
Page52 of 79
PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 54 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
PRESIDENT; Cooking, Tailoring
DETAINEE: Tailoring , the first make my life, after that I came to giving to some person , it is a surprise for your people. The person we have enemies with one other Afghan he is from Taliban My cousin told him to this district administrator Muhammad Rahim is support from al Qaida to your enemy he give him million Rupees to kill you This person, he is district administrator , his name is Abdullah , you can write with you.
PRESIDENT Okay
DETAINEE This Abdullah gave informationfrom Afghan.
PRESIDENT: What is his full name ?
DETAINEE: Abdullah , Haji Abdullah, he is the cousin of Maulawi Noor -Muhammad .
PRESIDENT: HajiAbdullah
DETAINEE: HajiAbdullah from Khoggani. ...
PRESIDENT: AU lies
DETAINEE: Maybe you believe or not, its its.
PRESIDENT: It's here I want to hear it from you. And you had nothingto do with rockets ?
DETAINEE: No.
PRESIDENT: Nothing
DETAINEE No.
PRESIDENT : Neversaw then
DETAINEE: It's a surprise.
PRESIDENT: I'm sorry ?
DETAINEE Surprise about these names when you say about SAM or Stinger. Maybethe peopletold you.
TRANSLATOR: He doesn't understand .
PRESIDENT: Okay, okay did you ever see rockets with your eyes , did you ever see the rockets?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE).
Page 53 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 55 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE No.
PRESIDENT: Soyou don'tknow what rocketshe's talkingabout?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ) No .
PRESIDENT: Alright, please proceed.
DETAINEE: Okay, I want to
PRESIDENT Continue, please ..
DETAINEE: I wantfiveminutesbathroom.
PRESIDENT Absolutely
PRESIDENT We willtake a briefrecess, why don'twe all take a break .
RECORDER The time is 1534 hours on February 9, 2009 .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
RECORDER: All
PRESIDENT: Pleasebe seated.
PRESIDENT This hearing will again come to order.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
RECORDER: The time is 13 , correction , the time is 1553 hours on February 9 , 2009 .
PRESIDENT Mr. Recorder
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
RECORDER : 3.e. The detainee was involved with al Qaida in at least eight countries.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE).
DETAINEE: ( ReadingstatementinPashtu).
TRANSLATOR: (To detainee). Your youngerbrothernamewas?
DETAINEE: AbdulBaset, Zadran.
PRESIDENT Proceed
Page 54 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED // FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 56 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED RELEASE
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator) to fifth accusation: I never travel to eight countries in all my life. I already told you about my trips to Iran, Turkmenistan and Moscow which I went there to get some assessment for agricultural tools. I am not an expert or a professional teacher who can work for al Qaida in eight countries. When I saw your accusations about me looked bigger then am to myself It is surprising me a big country like United States with the big intelligence service but that much weak and meaningless accusation. I swear to Allah ( God) all these accusations are not one percent true I know most of these report came from the people who 1 know Let me make it clear: I have problems with my cousins for land, shops, markets and properties. Longtime ago they tried to kill me or tried to take over of all my properties. There are is ( , translator error), a mobile antenna stand in my land and every month I have $ 3,000 (USD) incone my properties which they took over of all these properties They are old communists who work in Afghanistan intelligence service. They want to revenge from Mujahdeen. Today in Afghanistan government intelligent service, many of those communist are working and they are involved with corruption and drug business. They want divide my properties among them. It is easy for them to report you because you hired them and you are the one who made their govemment. Due to these problems my cousins tried to keep me in prison to get all the profit from my properties. Due to their reports you me. My younger brother whose name is Zadran for four years in Bagram prison.
PRESIDENT: Spell that please.
DETAINEE: Z - A - D - R - A - N
PRESIDENT: Younger brother
DETAINEE Yes .
PRESIDENT: Fouryears younger? Howmuchyounger?
DETAINEE I'm44, and he is now 28 .
DETAINEE ( Through Translator ): He was a student and never worked with Arabs. He doesn't know Arabic language. ask you hey American; you call yourself supporter of justice and democracy. Please do justice, my personal enemies planned for me to put me in prison. I am against war, I want peace. My seven children and wives are without protector living by their self. Again, I am asking for justice Work with al Qaida organization doesn't mean to be like them . Don't be oppressive otherwise you will have worse situation than Afghan. We ask you justice .
Page 55 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED // FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 57 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
PRESIDENT Any questions , follow - up ?
RECORDER: Nosir.
PRESIDENT Very good. Personal Representative.
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE: Nosir.
PRESIDENT: Board members.
RECORDER: Correction, tribunal members.
PRESIDENT: Tribunalmembers, Thank you.
TRIBUNALMBR: From 2001, when you move to Peshawar , lo 2007 , you were always in Pakistan ?
DETAINEE: Yes
TRIBUNALMBR: Who owned the property that you had in Afghanistan ? You or you cousins ?
DETAINEE My cousins
TRIBUNAL MBR So from 2001 to now, they always took the money and they took the property?
DETAINEE: Everything She my momma, she afraid of them . My... my, those peopleis afraidofthem . They um, those go from there maybethey kill them , with this, with this, withthis, with this, killthem . They will come again.
TRIBUNALMBR: So from 2001, your mother, and you , and your brother had no money from this property ?
DETAINEE: No, no, in my, had money , my father , I had from my second momma, and half - brothers . Three brothers, they live village And he have the parts of the land they grow in. And the other properties, for , the antenna, we have 500 dollars, the company pay him , all money , my cousin is take it. The shops and market also is my cousins.
TRIBUNAL MBR: And your half - brother gets nothing.
DETAINEE Yes
TRIBUNAL MBR: Even if he lives in Afghanistan ?
DETAINEE Who.
Page 56 of79
UNCLASSIFIEDU FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 58 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI/ FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRIBUNALMBR: Your half-brother?
TRANSLATOR: Actually( interruptedby detainee).
DETAINEE: Yes, yes, hebrother. yes mybrotherhe livedin village, but he.
TRIBUNALMBR: Gets nothing?
DETAINEE: No, is from shop and from antenna , no nothing. Not anything,
TRANSLATOR: I'm , for interruption, he said halfbrother or brother ? I guess .
TRIBUNALMBR Same father.
TRANSLATOR Yes
TRIBUNALMBR : Different mothers .
TRANSLATOR : Different mother yes
TRIBUNALMBR: Halfbrother
TRANSLATOR: Half brother. Some of the land they have some of the land and they are ( receivinginaudible) everything from it.
TRIBUNAL MBR : But from the shops and the antenna, your cousins take all the money ?
DETAINEE Yes, yes.
PRESDENT: When you go back are you going to confront this cousin ?
DETAINEE Nosir.
PRESIDENT: What do you plan to do?
DETAINEE I have the, (asked in Pashtuquestion)
TRANSLATOR: Documents
DETAINEE Documents, and alsoin Talibangovernment, the districtadministratorof Talibantold me, you giveus 10,000dollar, we give you your shops, but I don't have it becauseI'mpor In this government, the person is in government, he told , you bring20,000dollar andwe will try and the govertimentgive you all your property, but I don't have, I have, ( detaineeaskedtranslator).
TRANSLATOR : Documents.
DETAINEE: Documents . I go , I try and government, ( detainee asked translator )
Page 57 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 59 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED//FORPUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: Courts
DETAINEE: Courts to solve the problem .
TRIBUNALMBR: No further questions.
TRIBUNALMBR: You said you , you, mobile antenna stand and every month you have $ 3000 USD income from your property?
DETAINEE: Yes.
TRIBUNALMBR: Who gets the $ 3000 now?
DETAINEE Mycousins.
TRIBUNALMBR: Okay, so who made the arrangement with the Americans about the stand on this property ? Who made those arrangement ? Those arrangements ?
DETAINEE ( ).
TRIBUNALMBR: Who signed the contract for the antenna ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
DETAINEE My cousin.
TRIBUNALMBR Becausethey hadalreadytakenyour land ?
PRESIDENT: Did they bribeofficialsto get yourlandor did they just it?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE: Yes, they make documents from the because the district administratorwas with him. And he is told himto justice, you givehim this paperbecausewe want
TRANSLATOR: ( To the President), do you want more explanation?
PRESIDENT: No, I understand .
TRIBUNAL MBR: Is the districtadministratorname HajiAbdullah?
DETAINEE: Yes, from Khogiani..
TRIBUNAL : From?
DETAINEE FromK - H - O - G - I - A - N - I .
TRIBUNALMBR: And he's working with this man?
Page 58 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 60 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE Yes. And the district administratorfrom Karzaigovernment, and he had relationship with my cousin and has company with him because they dividedincomebetween each other,
TRIBUNAL MBR: Did you give it...What is your cousins name ? Did you say that yet ?
DETAINEE
TRIBUNALMBR: Do you have your cousin's names ?
DETAINEE: Yes, my cousin'sname is Fawad.
PRESIDENT: Spellit
DETAINEE : F - A - W - A - D , Fawad, B - A the other one, B -A -N -A - R -A -S, Banaras, and Babarak, B -A -B -A -R - A - K , Babarak, B - A B- A -R -A -K , Babarak, and.
TRIBUNAL MBR: That is three, three cousins.
DETAINEE: No, no.
TRIBUNALMBR: One ( inaudible)
DETAINEE: No, no everybody has 77799923 brothers this is my four cousins these all is my enemies, my four cousins and their sons all is my enemies . If told you this is maybe thirty persons.
TRIBUNALMBR: And you have four cousins.
DETAINEE: I have four cousins .
TRIBUNAL MBR Fawad , Banaras, Babarak .
DETAINEE: This my cousin's sons.
TRIBUNALMBR: Okay .
DETAINEE Sediq, S - I , S -E - D -I -Q , Sediq, and Akram , A - K - R - A -M , Akram , and Shapoor, S - H -A - P - double O - R Shapoor, and other one is Bais, B - A - I- Bais, and more other Assem, A -double S- double E - M , Assem.
TRIBUNALMBR: And allof these are the sonsof.
DETAINEE : ofthe cousins, my brother, my, my, myfather'sbrother'ssons.
TRIBUNALMBR: Okay
TRIBUNALMBR: Sediq, Sediq is your cousin ?
Page 59 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 61of 80
UNCLASSIFIED //FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE: Sediq, Yes
TRIBUNALMBR: So eithera , SediqRahimor Sediqwho ? one name?
DETAINEE : Sediq Uallah, Sediq Uallah .
TRIBUNALMBR Uallah
DETAINEE U -A -double L - A - H , Sediq Uallah.
TRIBUNALMBR: Spell it.
DETAINEE: S - E - D - IQU- - A -double L - A - H , Sediq Uallah.
TRIBUNALMBR: Andtheylive in whattown?
DETAINEE: Chaprehar. Chaprehar
TRIBUNALMBR: ChapreharDistrict, Jalalabad, Nangahar, Province.
DETAINEE: Yes
TRIBUNALMBR: Thankyou. Now, when were youarrested?
DETAINEE; I ?
TRIBUNAL MBR Yes.
DETAINEE
PRESIDENT:
DETAINEE
TRIBUNALMBR:
DETAINEE ( Inaudible ).
TRIBUNALMBR:
DETAINEE Yes
TRIBUNAL MBR : And they interviewed you there ?
DETAINEE : Yes
TRIBUNAL MBR: And you tellthemabout your cousin?
DETAINEE: Tell who?
Page 60 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 62 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRIBUNALMBR: Did you tell whoever was interviewing you,
DETAINEE : Yes
TRIBUNALMBR: Did you telt them about your cousin? Did they believe you ? ( interrupted by detainee) .
DETAINEE Yes, I told them . They didn't believe, they told me quiet, becausethey didn't take the names of my cousins, because they are not your enemy they are your coalition. Yes, if they are my coalition, bringwith me to Guantanamo, ( inaudible) .
PRESIDENT Andyou told aboutall this?
DETAINEE Yes.
TRIBUNAL MBR: Andyou saidyouhad documentsthat provethey tookyour land?
DETAINEE Yes
TRIBUNALMBR: Where are thesedocuments?
DETAINEE: It's home with my momma . Because, this was my cousin , my cousins his father was in the time, was , for example he's was poor, we loan him money, after that they coming to talk to my poppa , because my poppa had more land. My poppa told him no, no, you are my brother , father . I cannot give you , you don't have right with me, after they went to our rules, Afghan Jirga . Has name Jirga . For example, this person is an old man , they coming after that they sitting and speaking in (asks translator ).
DETAINEE
( ThroughTranslator) makepeace amongthem.
DETAINEE: Afterthat my poppasomethinggive him, but my poppa, my poppa was taking a writing, after that we don't havewith you any problem. His, afterhis fatherdies, afterhissonstartedthis Thisis land
TRIBUNAL MBR: So the twobrothers, your father andhisbrother, had theirdispute?
DETAINEE: Yes .
TRIBUNALMBR: And they take it to the elder, and the elder decides, there is no dispute, your father owns the property ?
DETAINEE Yes
TRIBUNALMBR: Hisbrotherdies?
Page61 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 63 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE
DETAINEE Yes.
TRIBUNAL MBR Now his son's ( interrupted by detainee )
DETAINEE the problem .
TRIBUNALMBR: Raise the disputeagain ?
DETAINEE Yes . This is right, this is very ... because my , my father was give him money for high school, for hospital, and for district administrator office, and my father give him land, more land. If you see him, maybe you, you thanks my father. Because he was man in the village, and he was a, ( asks translator).
TRANSLATOR: He likes education
DETAINEE: Education , and high school, and also gave more land for district administrator office, after is the ... the near to the district administrator office, makes shops and markets , when Taliban is coming, we lose them
TRIBUNALMBR: WhydidyouchooseLahoremarketplace?
DETAINEE: Yes, from the start, I had information about me, my cousin this time gave wrong information about me, my cousin , for this , Lahore is no more Afghan , in Peshawar more Afghan . If I live in Peshawar maybe I capture me in 2002, 2003. If I was in Lahore, in Lahore I was safe, and also in Lahore the business is better
PRESIDENT Bettereconomy?
DETAINEE Yes
TRANSLATOR Yes
TRIBUNAL MBR : Bigger city ?
DETAINEE : Yes And also I afraid from my cousins . These people is trying to kill me. In Peshawar all is Pashtun people. Pashtun people is if you give them little money, they kill you . For this afraid from my cousins , they kill me , I live in Lahore
TRIBUNALMBR: Is your brother still in prison ?
DETAINEE: Yes, my brother is in Bagram .
TRIBUNAL MBR: And was he captured by Americans or by ?
DETAINEE : Yes, by Americans, inJalalabadCity
Page 62 of 79
PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 64 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLIC RELEASE
TRIBUNALMBR: For the same reason , why was he captured ?
DETAINEE Because he was brother ofMuhammadRahim .
TRIBUNALMBR: That's all.
DETAINEE : My cousin gave him wrong information, maybe they told them he is a memberof Al Qaida, and memberof the Taliban, but hewas student, he live in Peshawar, he was a student and don't haveany contact with him. In 2001, when my poppa is died, after , I don't have any contact with my brotherand my family only with my momma. She's was... was visit ussometime
PRESIDENT: Any follow -up?
TRIBUNALMBR: No sir .
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE sir.
RECORDER No sir .
TRIBUNALMBR: And who was the Afghani commander that you were speaking for at Tora Bora ?
DETAINEE Haji Zaman
DETAINEE : Yes . Haji Zaman and Hazrat Ali.
TRIBUNALMBR: What was the names ?
TRANSLATOR: Haji Zaman and Hazrat Ali.
DETAINEE Hazrat Ali.
DETAINEE: HajiZaman H - A -J -I Z - A - M - A - N . HazratAli H A - Z - R - A - T A -L - . Ali
TRIBUNALMBR: And do they rememberspeakingwithyou?
DETAINEE Absolutely
PRESIDENT: You know men well ?
DETAINEE: No, no, one Afghan person, I don't know . Because I don't have any relationship with them . I don't know them .
TRIBUNAL MBR: After you spoke with them and you had the ceasefire, the ceasefire started, the nextday you left?
Page 63 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 65 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE Yes.
TRBUNALMBR: Didyou evertalk to eitherone thesecommandersagain ?
DETAINEE: No.
TRIBUNALMBR: Sir, that'sall I have.
PRESIDENT Any follow -up ?
TRIBUNALMBR: Nosir.
TRIBUNALMBR: Nosir
PRESIDENT Please proceed.
RECORDER: 4. The following factors tend to suggest that the detainee is not an enemycombatant.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
RECORDER : 4.a. A source stated that he did hear about any militarytrainingfor the detainee
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
RECORDER : 4.b. A source stated that he knows of the detainee's involvementin the jihad against the Soviet Union
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
RECORDER : A source stated that he did not believe the detainee was involved with al Qaida or with the Taliban
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
RECORDER: 4.d. A source looked at pictures of the detainee and the source that some of the pictures did not look like the detaince
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE: ( Asked translator ),
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) He wants an explanationof 4
TRANSLATOR: ( Translated to detainee) .
Page 64 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDU PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 66 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: I explained about the fourth one, which somebody say about his picture, the pictures not like him. Yes.
DETAINEE: Yes
RECORDER: Sir, this concludes the summary of unclassified information .
PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PRESIDENT: Mr. Personal Representative, does the Detainee have any evidence to present to thisTribunal?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OFABOVE )
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE : Yes Sir I am handing to the Tribunal the following unclassified exhibits marked as Exhibit D -c . Copies of this exhibit have been previously provided the Recorder .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE)
PRESIDENT: The documents D - c received and entered into the record. They are, that is , your statement.
TRIBUNAL MBR: In English.
PRESIDENT: In English
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT: Mr. Recorder do you have any further unclassified evidence ?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
RECORDER: Mr. President, have no further unclassified evidence for the Tribunal but I respectfully request a closed Tribunal session at an appropriate time to present classified evidence relevant to this detainee's status as an enemy combatant
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT; Recorder, your request for a closed session is granted and will be takenindue course,
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
PRESIDENT Does any tribunalmember desiremore time to review the unclassified evidence
Page 65 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDFORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 67 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
TRIBUNALMBR: No Sir
TRIBUNALMBR: NoSir
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
DETAINEEORAL STATEMENT
PRESIDENT Mr. MUHAMMAD RAHIM , you may now make an oral statement to the Tribunal, and you have the assistance of your Personal Representative in doing so. Do you wish to inake another oral statement to this Tribunal?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE: Yes
PRESIDENT: You may proceed. And I remind you, you are still under oath from when you went under oath in a previous session ,
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
DETAINEE : Yes
PRESIDENT: The floor is yours sir
TRANSLATOR; ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
BEGIN DETAINEE ORAL STATEMENT
DETAINEE: ( Speakingin Pashtu)
PRESIDENT Couldyou translate what hejust said please. ( To the Translator).
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) Yes, sir, I want to make sure what he say He wants to explain about the fourth one, theone whichsay that.
DETAINEE: (Detainee speaking in
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) Okay
PRESIDENT Could you please translate what he just said?
Page66 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 68 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: I will do sir .
PRESIDENT Thankyou
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator) He just wanted to talk about that, a source said that he did not hear about any inilitary training for the detainee
PRESIDENT; Pleaseproceed.
DETAINEE : Let me explain to you, Maybe you are have more information about me. I believe I was with Arab people and I did work with them , and my work with Arab people, this mission not was enemy with Americans ( inaudible ) The situation with Arab was inaudible ) American ( inaudible coming to Afghanistan ( inaudible ). We know we are no enemy .
PRESIDENT; So do you unde and how someone looking at what you did do with the Arabs, could come to the conclusion that your are supporting al Qaida, you understand how that could be made ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE)
DETAINEE: (Speaking Pashtu ).
DETAINEE ; I explain to you what I did with the Arabs
PRESIDENT: Yes, Yes, and what my question is ?
DETAINEE: Yes
PRESIDENT: I believe you when you say.
DETAINEE
PRESIDENT This is all I did. But do you understandhow someone could look at what you did and come to the conclusion that you were workingfor al Qaida? Do you understandhowthat couldbe taken ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
DETAINEE Maybe, this is your judgment
PRESIDENT: 1 , agree
DETAINEE Yes. explainto you, I did work I believe this. But I, I told you my idea, my opinion, I'mnotenemy for Americans.
PRESIDENT: Right, your ideologywhatyoubelieveis one thing.
Page 67 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 69 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE : I didworkto 99 with them Whichis right. This is beforefightingwith Americans. When they startedfightingwith Americans, I didn't believe fightingwith them in Afghanistan, and also I don't believethis is true that the personwho the enemy is Afghanand againstthe others. This is my opinion, but I, I ( detaineespeakingto translatorinPashtu )
TRANSLATOR I ask
DETAINEE I ask you for justice. I have, this is my enemymy cousins. This is my enemy. Maybeothercommunistpeoplegive you informationabout me. This is not right. I have a questionyou. Please changemy situationif you can help me from this block to other change my situationand my place with my other Afghan people. Because I'm very tired in this place. I know
PRESIDENT: Ah,
DETAINEE: And this block This block.
TRIBUNALMBR: Cell block
PRESIDENT Oh, , you're asking do ... We do not have the authority to move you fromone place to anotherhere.
DETAINEE : Okay
PRESIDENT: The only thing that we do is, this decision regarding whether or not you are an enemy combatant. We have no authority on any other subject. So we have this question and this question only . I'm sorry about thal.
DETAINEE ( Speaking Pashtu to translator ).
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator) Hesay yes I want you guys to do justice about me.
DETAINEE: ( SpeakingPashtuto translator)
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) do any kind of military or intelligence training I been for a again long time during the war against Soviet Union and Jihad time, I work as a civilian Afghan
PRESIDENT: Mr. Rahim does thal complete your statement ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE (Spoke Pashtu to translator)
DETAINEE
Page 68 of79
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 70 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
( ThroughTranslator) Yes haveanyotherthing.
PRESIDENT: Thank you.
DETAINEE QUESTION & ANSWER
PRESIDENT: Mr. PersonalRepresentative, do you have questions?
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE , sir.
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
TRANSLATOR: ( president ), give me one moment
PRESIDENT Please do. Take as much as you need.
TRANSLATOR: Yes.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
PRESIDENT : Mr. Recorder do you have any questions ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
RECORDER: Nosir
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OFABOVE ).
PRESIDENT Doeitherof the TribunalMembershave any questions?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
TRIBUNAL MBR; I have some
PRESIDENT: Please continue.
TRIBUNALMBR: You were never in the military fighting against the Russians , the Russian occupation ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE: ( Speaking in Pashtu to translator ).
DETAINEE: (inaudible) Afghanin my village, but I don't have experienceabout for example, in ( inaudible). I don't have training about rockets firing, becausemaybesometimesor maybe one for example I person whohad the Kalashnikov, but not, I, ah think, I don't like morefighting inthis, I don't, I don't.
Page 69 of 79
PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 71of 80
UNCLASSIFIED // FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: ( Asked Tribunal Members) . Do you understand or want me to translate this ?
DETAINEE: ( SpeakingPashtuto translator).
DETAINEE
( Through Translator) said I never against the Russian, but I carry Kalashnikov machine gun with me , just to show , for show to show to my villagers, I also involved with that, but I never fired it.
TRIBUNALMBR: That's it
TRIBUNAL MBR I have one question that is in some ways the same . In the factors that suggest that you are not an enemy combatant, the second factor says , a source stated that he only knows of the detainee's , Muhammad Rahin , Muhammad Rahim's involvement in the Jihad against the Soviet Union . So if I understand your answer , you did not actually fight against the Union, but rather you stayed in your village and you carried a rifle ? this correct ?
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
DETAINEE: Maybeyou have informationabout Jihad againstRussianor not I want to explain to you a little. In that time was teacher in Peshawar, in Afghan refugees camp. Kachaghari camp, in middle school, Afghan refugees, Afghanrefugeeschool. And sometimein three monthswe had a recess( detaineeaskedtranslator).
TRANSLATOR: (Told detaince the word " off" .
DETAINEE: Off three months. This time we was go to Afghanistan , for example some teachers, some students, just for visit to our village and one month, two months after that we come back to Pakistan. And also we visit the our some, for example some our Mujahadeen from our village and different fronts But not was with company with him permanently in the fronts. The Afghan Jihad, not was as the , the Army, battalion or division, is going the place and has taken . Afghan war was, Afghan war was ( started talking Pashtu to translator ).
TRANSLATOR: "Guerilla"
DETAINEE Guerilla , you know guerilla, guerilla attack , we are attack with going and Russians is coming with planes and tanks , you see you cannot do anything. This was Mujahadeen , and after that the Russians left. After that is the communist regime the starting a, a front- - front war , different war , for example the front line of Mujahadeen and front line of the the their communists regime fighting each other . We, we, visitors in this this area . But not with the company to fight.
Page70 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 72 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE
TRIBUNAL MBR: So you did not fight on the side of the Mujahadeenagainstthe Soviet Union?
DETAINEE No. Sometime we went to fronts, in this area. But not with company to fight.
TRIBUNAL MBR I understand . Thank you I have nothing further.
PRESIDENT Anyfollow -up.
TRIBUNAL MBR No sir
TRIBUNALMBR; Nosir.
CALLING OF RECORDER WITNESSES
PRESIDENT: We will now allow for the calling of Recorder witnesses.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
PRESIDENT All witnesses called before this Tribunal may be questioned by the Detainee, the Personal Representative, the Recorder, and the Tribunal Members
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
PRESIDENT Mr. Recorder do you have any witnesses to present ?
RECORDER : No sir .
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OFABOVE).
CALLING OF DETAINEEWITNESSES
PRESIDENT We will nowallowfor the callingof detaineewitnesses.
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT : Fromthe DetaineeElectionFormprovidedto the Tribunalearlier, I note that the Detaineehasrequested, has notrequestedany witnesses:
TRANSLATOR; ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
FINAL DETAINEE STATEMENT
PRESIDENT: Mr. MUHAMMAD RAHIM , this concludes the presentation of unclassifiedinfomationto the Tribunal. We are about to concludethe unclassifiedportion of this hearing. Do you mention.., wish, do you wish to makeany final statementto the Tribunal?
Page 71 of 79
PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 73 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
you wish some accusation, more accusationto ask me, I explain.
PRESDENT Thank you. No further questions.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OFABOVE ).
CLOSINGUNCLASSIFIEDSESSION
PRESIDENT All unclassified evidence having been provided to the Tribunal, this concludes the open tribunal session.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
PRESIDENT MUHAMMAD RAHIM you shall be notified of the Tribunal's decision upon completion of the review of these proceedings by the Combatant Status Review Tribunal Convening Authority in Washington,
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT If the Tribunal determines that you are no longer classified as an enemy combatant, you will be released to your home country as soon as arrangements can be made.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT: the Tribunal determines that you are classified as an combatant, you may be eligible for an Administrative Review Board hearing at a future
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
PRESIDENT If necessary, the AdministrativeReviewBoardwill make an assessment whetherthere is continuedreasonto believethat you pose a threat the United States and/ or its coalition partnersin the ongoingarmed conflict against terrorist organizations such as Al Qaida and affiliates and supporters, or whether there are other factors bearingupon the need for continueddetention.
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE )
PRESIDENT You looked a little confused; do you understandthat this tribunalwill make a decision, and if we a decision that you are an enemy combatant, the administrative review board can transfer detain, or releaseyou regardlessof what we decide. Did, do you understandthat ?
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE)
Page 72 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 74 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
DETAINEE: ( Asked in Pashtu).
TRANSLATOR: (Answeredin Pashtu).
DETAINEE: Okay, I see. Without other administralor, they have, they have power to make decision, ah ?
PRESIDENT: This is not the end of this process, if we decide that you are an enemy combatant, the Administrative Review Board can decided even though you are an enemy combatant, we don't think you pose a anymore and they can send you home
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
PRESIDENT: Most people who have left this place have left by the Administrative Review Board process. .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
DETAINEE: (Asked Translator something in Pashtu )
TRANSLATOR: He askedaboutsomethinghe didn'tknow. Asked Presidentifhe could explain
PRESIDENT Ask his questions and I will explain.
TRANSLATOR: Yes sir. Hewants to know about ReviewBoard.
PRESIDENT; Alright, the reviewboard, the AdministrativeReviewBoardreviewsthe decisionsthat this tribunalmakes
DETAINEE: The review they see, and check and after this they make decision.
PRESIDENT: Yes , that is .
TRIBUNALMBR: May ?
PRESIDENT: Pleasedo
TRIBUNAL MBR: This tribunal asks one question and that is, is Muhammad Rahim an enemy of the United States. we say no , you will be transferred back to your home country . Ifwe say yes , Muhammad Rahim is an enemy , then later the Administrative Review Board will ask a different question . They will say even if Muhammad Rahim is an enemy of the United States, does he pose a continued threat against the United States ? Even if we find yes , Rahim is an enemy, the Administrative Review Board asks but is he a danger ? If he's not a danger then they can release him , even ifwe say yes he's an enemy of the United States .
Page 73 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 75 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED PUBLICRELEASE
TRANSLATOR ( Asked detainee in Pashtu ifhe understands ).
DETAINEE Yes. understand,
PRESIDENT And I would urge you and we have not made up our minds yet, we do not know what we will decide we decide that you were an enemy combatant, and you are afforded an Administrative Review Board, please take advantage of that process. It is a real process, and many people have been sent back to their countries. Many, many of them. You, you know this, since you were picked up in 2007, and by that time many have left already. That is the process that they left under and it is sad, that many people don't participatein the process, and then we don't have the ability to ask questions. So, please consider that very seriously.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE).
PRESIDENT: Do you have any other questions ?
DETAINEE: Thanks
PRESIDENT Thank you.
DETAINEE ( Through Translator) He is asking about the results. Is it near or far away, when will?
PRESIDENT We will deliberate with all due dispatch, but we will not take our time or drag our feet; we are going to do this right away.
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
PRESIDENT And then we will forward our decision to Washington Then they will make the final determination.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE).
PRESIDENT They take our recommendation very , very seriously .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE)
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator): He asked, he asked about all that stuff which you say. And how much he should to your justice,
PRESIDENT I can't speak for my fellow tribunalmembers, but I can tell you that I will do absolutelywhat I think is the rightthingto do. Nobodyis going to tell me to do somethingthat I feel comfortablewith
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOF ABOVE) .
Page 74 of 79
PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 76 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI/FORPUBLICRELEASE
PRESIDENT: I decide one thing, and the other two members decide another , I will write my own decision
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
PRESIDENT: As they can write their own decisions as well if we do not agree.
TRANSLATOR : ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE)
PRESIDENT: We are each given our own authority to do what we each individually feel is .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ).
TRIBUNAL MBR: May say something? It is very importantthat you haveparticipatedin this process. We take what you say very seriously, and you speak very good English
DETAINEE Thank you. try to understand you.
TRIBUNALMBR: And we appreciate that.
DETAINEE: And hope for American people, Afghan people is not your enemy. I believe, I believe this, if after attack , 11 September, if was little state, to make decision Taliban about al Qaida, maybe this thing was, this is was ah, better from American and Afghan people Maybe you killing Afghan people, not more killing for American people. Because no, ah you have more soldiers in Afghanistan killed. And I see in newspaper these , in 2008, Afghan was killed, American attacks, here, there, there, on attack of Taliban, al Qaida American, this is ah I think , next problem the, the , the problem of Afghan and American, when I hear in news Afghan people don't have enemies to American people. Because Afghans is American coalition of Afghan against Russian people, Russians. Please ( detaince spoke in Pashtu to ).
DETAINEE ( ThroughTranslator) Pleasedon't think aboutAfghan, the same like you think aboutal Qaida.
PRESIDENT Of course
Page75 of 79
UNCLASSIFIED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 77 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLICRELEASE
DETAINEE: This is a, this is our Afghan culture , for example, the person he's coming and who have enemy of other people, this is rule National rules of Afghan tribe. And these kill me, and I kill you . After that, if it's the Afghanistan way we finish , we ah, and we cannot we tell him no can't do this, but we have rule. For example, if our the Afghan person, he's respect Afghan rule, after that Afghan not become ah , ah aggressive people. It is right, but I hope from your people please you don't think about Afghanis they are American enemy.
PRESIDENT Absolutely. Thank you very much.
TRIBUNAL MBR; Thankyou.
ADJOURNOPEN SESSION
PRESIDENT: The open session of this Tribunal hearing is adjourned .
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE ) .
DETAINEE: Wehave secondmeetingornot finish ? First meetingor last?
TRIBUNAL MBR: This is last.
PRESIDENT Thisis our
DETAINEE: This is last.
PRESIDENT: We are done now Yes, Thank you . And good luck to you sir.
RECORDER: The time is 1651 hours on February 9, 2009
TRANSLATOR: ( TRANSLATION OF ABOVE) .
RECORDER: AllRise.
TRANSLATOR ( TRANSLATIONOFABOVE) .
SECTION 2: CLASSIFIED (CLOSED SESSION
PRESIDENT : The Tribunalfor MUHAMMADRAHIM , also identified by Internment Serial Number 10029, is now reconvened without the detainee being present to preventa potentialcompromiseof nationalsecurity due to the classified nature of the evidence to be considered The Recorder will notethe date andtimeof this session for the record.
RECORDER: The time is 1659 hours on February 9 , 2009.
Page 76 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 78 of 80
UNCLASSIFIED RELEASE
PRESENTATIONOF CLASSIFIEDINFORMATION
PRESIDENT: Recorder, pleaseprovidethe Tribunalwiththe classifiedinformation
RECORDER: I am handing the Tribunal what has previouslybeen marked as Exhibits R - 6 through R -20. These exhibits were previously provided to the PersonalRepresentativefor his review.
PRESIDENT The documents R - 6 and R - 20 are received into the record
PRESIDENT: Mr. Recorder, do youdesire to commentonthe classifiedevidence?
RECORDER: NoSir
PRESIDENT Does the Personal Representative have any classified evidence to present?
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE: NoSir
PRESDENT: already received them into the record. Personal Representative, do you wish to comment on the classified evidence ?
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE Ah, no sir Could I ask that you restate the ISN for this ?
PRESDENT Ten thousand twenty nine.
PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE: Yes sir .
PRESIDENT: Very good
PRESIDENT; Does any member of the tribunal desire more time to review the classified information ?
TRIBUNALMBR: No sir
TRIBUNALMBR: No sir
PRESIDENT You may resume.
PRESIDENT Oh, ah, Mr. Recorder, do you desire to comment on the classified
RECORDER : No sir
Page 77 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI/FOR PUBLIC RELEASE Case 1 :09- cv- 01385- PLF Document47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 79 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDI PUBLIC RELEASE
PRESIDENT Do members of the Tribunal have any questions for either the Recorder or the Personal Representative regarding either the classified information or their comments concemingit?
TRIBUNAL MBR: No Sir
TRIBUNAL MBR: Nosir.
CLOSING OF CLASSIFIED SESSION
PRESIDENT This Tribunal session is hereby and the Tribunal is closed for deliberationand voting.
RECORDER: The tinie is 1701 hours on February 9 , 2009.
AUTHENTICATION
I certify the material contained in this transcript is a true and accurate summary of the testimony given during the proceedings.
3
COL , U.S. JFT -GTMO - OARDEC
Page78 of 79
UNCLASSIFIEDI/ FORPUBLICRELEASE Case 1 : 09- cv - 01385 - PLF Document 47-8 Filed 01/04/10 Page 80 of 80
UNCLASSIFIEDIFORPUBLIC RELEASE
PROCEEDINGSINDEX
SECTION1 : UNCLASSIFIED(OPEN) SESSION:......
OPENING 1
CONVENINGAUTHORITY . 2
OATH SESSION 2 2
EXPLANATIONOF PROCEEDINGS 4
PRESENTATIONOF UNCLASSIFIEDINFORMATION 5
RECORDERPRESENTSUNCLASSIFIEDINFORMATION
DETAINEEORALSTATEMENT 66
BEGINDETAINEEORALSTATEMENT. 66
DETAINEE QUESTION & ANSWER 69
CALLINGOF RECORDERWITNESSES. 71
FINALDETAINEESTATEMENT 71
ADJOURNOPEN SESSION 76
SECTION 2 : CLASSIFIED ( CLOSED) SESSION 76
PRESENTATIONOFCLASSIFIEDINFORMATION 77
CLOSINGOF CLASSIFIEDSESSION 78
AUTHENTICATION . 78
PROCEEDINGS INDEX 79
Page 79 of 79
PUBLIC RELEASE