Vol. I—flo. i Tuesday, May i6 ,1978 Vaisakha 26,1900 (Saka)

JOINT SITTING OF THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT

DEBATES

f PARUAM tr. 1’ L I B R A R Y ’

a - , 1 : 0 ......

L O K SABHA SECRETARIAT NEW D E LH1

P r i c e : R s . 4 ’o o JOINT SITTING OF THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT

Ankineedu Prasada Rao, shri (Baptala) ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Ansari, Shri Faquir Ali (Mirzapur) A Antulay, Shri A. R. (Maharashtra) Abdul Lateef, Shri (Nalgonda) Appalanaidu, Shri S. R. A. S. (Anaka- palli) Aaneshiah, Dr. Malcolm Sathianathan (Nominated) Argal, Shri Chhaliiram (Morena) Adivarekar, Shrimati Sushila Shan­ Arif, Shri Mohammed Usman (Rajas­ kar (Maharashtra) than) Advani, Shri Lai K. (Gujarat) Arif Beg, Shri (Bhopal) Agrawal, Shri Satish (Jaipur) Arunachalam, Shri M. (Tenkasi) Ahmed, Shri Halimuddin (Kishanganj) Arunachalam, Shri V. (Tirunelveli) Ahmed Hussain, Shri (Dhubri) Asaithambi, Shri A. V. P. (Madras Ahsan Jafri, Shri (Ahmedabad) North) Asokaraj, Shri A. (Perambalur) Ahuja, Shri Subhash (Betul) Akbar Jahan Begum, Shrimati (Sri­ Asthana, Shri K. B. (Uttar Pradesh) nagar) Austin, Dr. Henry (Emakulam) Alagesan, Shri O. V. (Arkonam) Avari, Shri Gev. M. (Nagpur) Alhaj, Shri M. A. Hannan (Basirhat) Avergoankar, Shri R. D. Jagtap (Maha­ Alluri, Shri Subhash Chandra Bose rashtra) (Narasapur) Alva, Shrimati Margaret (Karnataka) B ^.marjit K^fcr, Shrimati (Punjab) Badri Narayan, Shri A. R. (Shimoga) mat, Shri D. (Sundargarh) Bagaitkar, Shri Sadashiv (Maha­ Amin, PrW R . K. (Surendranagar) rashtra) talla, Shri Tirath Ram (Jammu and Kashmir) Bagri, Shri Mani Ram (Mathura) Bagun Sumbrui, Shri (Singhbhum) \nand, Shri Jagjit Singh (Punjab) Bahuguna, Shri H. N. (Lucknow) taandam, Shri M. (Andhra Pradesh) Vnanthan, Shri Kumari (Nagercoil) Bahuguna, Shrimati Kamala (Phulpur) Bairagi, Shri Jena (Bhadrak) &nbalagan, Shri P. (Ramanathapuram) Bal, Shri Pradyumna (Jagatsinghpur) Anjiah, Shri T. (Andhra Pradesh) Balak Ram, Shri (Simla) nkineedu, Shri Maganti (Machili- patnam) Balakrishniah, Shri T. (Tlrupathi)

1157 LS—1

Balram Das, Shri (Madhya Pradesh) Bhattacharjee, Prof. Sourendra (West Bengal) Banatwalla, Shri G. M. (Ponnani) Bhattacharya, Shri Dinen (Serampore) Banerjee, Shri B. N. (Nominated) Bhattacharya, Shri G. C. (Uttar Pra­ Banerjee, Shri Jahar Lai (West Bengal) desh) Bar.si Lai, Shri (Haryana) Bhattacharyya, Shri Shyamaprasanna (Uluberia) Barakataki, Shrimati Renuka Devi (Gauhati) Bheeshma Dev. Shri M, (Nagarkurnool) Barman, Shri Palas (Balurghat) Bhim Raj, Shri (Rajasthan) Barman, Shri Prasenjit (West Bengal) Bhola Prasad, Shri (Bihar) Barnala, Shri Surjit Singh (Sangrur) Bhuvarahan, Shri Q. (Cuddalore)

Barrow, Shri A. £. tf. (riorninated-^ Birendra Prasad, Shri (Nalanda> Anglo-Indians) Boddepalli, Shri Rajagopala Rao (Srl- Barua, Shri Bedabrata (Kaliabor) kakulam) Barve, Shri J. C. (Ramtek) Bonde. Shri Nanasahib (Amravati) Basappa, Shri Kondajji (Davangere) Borole, Shri Yashwant (Jalgaon) Basar, Shri Todak (Arunachal Pra­ Bose, Shrimati Pratima (West Bengal) desh) Borooah, Shri D. K. (Nowgong) Basavaraj, Shri H. R. (Karnataka) Bosu. Shri Jyotirmoy (Diamond Har- Basheer, Shri T. (Kerala) bour) Basu, Shri Chitta (Barasat) Brahm Perkash, Chaudhury (Outer Delhi) Basu. Shri Dhirendranath (Katwa) Brij Raj Singh, Shri (Aonla) Bateshwar Hemram, Shri (Dumka) Burande, Shri Gangadhar Appa (Bihar) Bervva, Shri Ram Kanwar (Tonk) Burman, Shri Kirit Bikram Deb (Tri­ Bhabhda,, Shri Harishanker (Rajas­ pura East) than)

Bhadoria, Shri Arjun Singh (Etawah) C Bhagat. Shri Ganpat Hiralal (Maha­ rashtra) Chakraborty, Shri Amarprosad (West Bhagat Ram, Shri (Phillaur) Bengal) Chakravarty, Prof. Dilip (Calcutta Bhagwan Din, Shri (Uttar Pradesh) South) Bhakta, Shri Manoranjan (Andaman Chanana, Shri Charanjit (Delhi) and Nicobar Islands) Chand Ram, Shri (Sirsa) Bhandari, Shri Sunder Singh (Uttar Pradesh) Chandan Singh, Shri (Kairana) (iii)

Chandra Pal Singh, Shri (Amroha) Choudhari, Shri K. B. (Bijapur) Chandrasekhar, Shrimati Maragatham Choudhury, Shrimati Rashida Haque (Nominated) (Silchar) Chandra Shekhar, Shri (Balia) Chowdhary, Dr. Chandramanilal (Bihar) Chandra Shekhar Singh, Shri (Vara­ nasi) Chowhan, Shri Bharat Singh (Dhar) Chandrappan, Shri C. K. (Cannanore) Chunder, Dr. Pratap Chandra (Calcutta North-East) Chandravati, Shrimati (Bhiwani) Chandre Gowda, Shri D. B. (Chikama- galur) D Charan Narzary, Shri (Kokrajhar) Dabhi, Shri Ajitsinh (Anand) Charan Singh, Shri (Baghpat) Damani, Shri S. R. (Sholapur) Chatterjee, Shri Pranab (Bihar) Damor, Shri Somjibhai (Dohad) Chatterjee. Shri Somnath (Jadavpur) Dandavate, Prof. Madhu (Rajapur) Chattopadhyaya Prof. D.P. (West Bengal) Dan we, Shri Pundalik Hari (Jalna) Chaturbhuj, Shri (Jhalawar) Das, Shri Bipinpal (Assam) Chaturvedi, Shri Shambhu Nath Das, Shri R. P. (Krishnagar) (Agra) Das, Shri S. S. (Sitamarhi) Chaudhari, Shri N. P. (Madhya Dasappa, Shri Tulsidas (Mysore) Pradesh) Dasgupta, Shri K. N. (Jalpaiguri) Chaudhary, Shri Motibhai R. (Banas- kantha) Dave, Shri Anand (Kutch) Chaudhry, Shri Ishwar (Gaya) Dawn, Shri Raj Krishna (Burdwan) Deb Burman, Shri Bir Chandra (Tri­ Chaudhri, Shri Tridib (Berhampore) pura) Chaudhuty, Shri Rudra Sen (Kaiser- Deo Shri P. K. (Kalahandi) ganj) Deo, Shri V. Kishore Chandra S. (Par- Chauhan, Shri Bega Ram (Gangana* vathipuram) gar) Desai, Shri D. D. (Kaira) Chauhan, Shri Nawab Singh (Aligarh) Desai, Shri Dajiba (Kolhapur) Chaurasia, Shri Shivdayal Singh (Uttar Pradesh) Desai, Shri Hitendra (Godhra) Chavan, Shrimati P. (Karad) Desai, Shri Morarji (Surat) Chavan, Shri Yeshwantrao (Satara) Desai, Shri R. M. (Karnataka) Chavda, Shri K. S. (Patau) Deshmukh, Dr. Bapuraoji Marotraoji Chettri, Shri K. B. (Darjeeling) (Maharashtra) Chhetrl, Shri Chhatra Bahadur Deshmukh, Shri Nanaji (Balrampur) (Sikkim) Deshmukh, Shri Ram Prasad (Hathras)

Chikkalingiah, Shri K. (Mandya) Deshmukh, Shri Sheshrao (Parbhanf) (iv)

Devrajan, Shri B. (Raslpuram) Ganga Singh, Shri (Mandi) Dhabe, Shri S. W. (Maharashtra) Gattani, Shri R. D. (Jodhpur) Dhandayuthapani, Shri V. (Vellore) Gawai, Shri D. G. (Buldhana) Dhara, Shri Sushik Kumar (Tamluk) George Shri A. C. (Mukandapuram) Dharla, Shri Mohan (Poona) Ghosal, Shri Sudhir (Midnapore) Dhillon, Shri Iqbal Singh (Jullundur) Ghose, Shri Sankar (West Bengal) Dhondge, Shri Keshavrao (Nanded) Gill, Shri Raghbir Singh (Punjab) Dhulup, Shri K. N. (Maharashtra) Girijanandan Singh, Shri (Sheohar) Dhurve, Shri Shyamlal (Mandla) Godara, Ch. Hari Ram Makkasar Digal, Shri Sribatcha (Phulbani) (Bikaner) Gode, Shri Santoshrao (Wardha) Digvijoy Narain Singh, Shri (Vaishali) Gogoi, Shri Tarun (Jorhat) Dinesh Chandra, Shri Swami (Rajas­ than) Gogoi, Shri Tilok (Assam) Dinesh Singh, Shri (Uttar Pradesh) Gomango, Shri Giridhar (Koraput) Doley, Shri L. K. (Lakhimpur) Gopal, Shri K. (Karur) Durga Chand, Shri (Kangra) Gopalswamy, Shri V. (Tamil Nadu) Dutt, Shri Asoka Krishna (Dum Dum) Gore, Shrimati Mrinal (Bombay North) Dutt, Shri V. P. (Nominated) Goswami, Shrimati Bibha Ghosh (Nabadwip) Dwivedi, Shri Devendra Nath (Uttar Pradesh) Goswami, Shri Dinesh (Assam) Goswami, Shri Sriman Prafulla (Assam) E Gotkhinde, Shri Annasaheb (Sangli) Elanchezhian, Shri V. S. (Pudukkottai) Gounder, Shri Venugopal (Wandiwash) Engti, Shri Biren (Autonomous Dis­ Govindjiwala, Shri Parmanand (Khan- trict) dwa) Gowda, Shri K. S. Malle (Karnataka) F Gowda, Shri S. Nanjesha (Hassan) Faleiro, Shri Eduardo (Mormugao) Gowda, Shri U. K. Lakshmana (Karna­ taka) Fazlur Rahman, Shri (Bettiah) Goyal, Shri Krishna Kumar (Kota) Fernandes, Shri George (Muzaffarpur) Guha, Shri Samar (Contai) G Gulshan, Shri Dhanna Singh (Bha- tinda) Gadgil, Shri Vithal (Maharashtra) Gupta, Shri Bhupesh (West Bengal) Gaekwad, Shri F. P. (Baroda) Gupta, Shri Gurudev (Madhya Pra­ Gamit, Shri Chhitubhal (Mandvi) desh) Ganga Bhakt Singh, Shri (Shahabad) Gupta, Shri Kanwar Lai (Delhi Sadar) C V)

Gupta, Shri Ram Lakhan Prasad Jain, Shri Kacharulal Hemraj (Bala* (Bihar) ghat) Gupta, Shri SShyam Sunder (Barh) Jain, Shri Kalyan (Indore) Jain, Shri Nirmal Chandra (Seoni) H Jaiswal, Shri Anant Ram (Faizabad) Habibullah, Shrimati Hamida (Uttar Pradesh) Jamuna Devi, Shrimati (Madhya Pra­ desh) Haider, Shri Krishna Chandra (Durga- pur) (Janardhanam, Shri A. P. (Tamil Nadu) Hande, Shri V. G. (Nasik) Jasrotia, Shri Baldev Singh (Jammu) Hansda, Shri Phanindra Nath (West Bengal) Jawade, Shri Shridharrao Nathobaji (Yeotmal) Haren Bhumij, Shri (Dibrugarh) Jethmalani, Shri Ram (Bombay Harikesh Bahadur, Shri (Gorakhpur) North-West) Hashim, Shri M. M. (Secunderabad) Jeyalakshmi, Shrimati V. (Sivakasi) Hashmi, Shri Syed Ahmad (Uttar Pra­ Jha, Shri Kamalnath (Bihar) desh) Hazari, Shri Ram Sewak (Rosera) Jha, Shri Shiva Chandra (Bihar) Heera Bhai, Shri (Banswara) Joarder, Shri Dinesh (Malda) Hegde, Shri K. S. (Bangalore South) Joshi, Shri Jagadish (Madhya Pra­ desh) Hegde, Shri Kamkarishna (Karnataka) Joshi, Shri Jagannathrao (Delhi) Hukam Ram, Shri (Jalore) Joshi, Shri Krishna Nand (Uttar Pra­ desh) I Joshi, Shrimati Kumudben Manishan* ker (Gujarat) Imam, Shrimati Aziza (Bihar) Joshi, Dr. Murli Manohar (Almora) Inder Singh, Shri (Hissar)

Ismail, Shrimati Fathema (Nominat­ K ed) Kachwai. Shri Hukam Chand (Ujjain) J Kadam, Shri B. P. (Kanara)

Jadhav, Shri Padurang Dharmaji Kadannappalli, Shri Ramachandran (Nominated) (Kasaragod) Jaffer Sharief, Shri C. K. (Bangalore Kadershah, Shri M. (Tamil Nadu) North) Kaiho, Shri (Outer Manipur) Jagannathan, Shri S. (Sriperumbudur) Kailash Prakash, Shri (Meerut) Jagbir Singh, Shri (Uttar Pradesh) Kakade, Shri Sambhajirao (Bararr.ati) Jagjivan Ram, Shri (Sasaram) Kakati, Shri Robin (Assam) Jain, Shri Dharamchand (Bihar) Kalaniya, Shri Ibrahim (Gujarat) Kaldate, Dr. Bapu (Aurangabad) Khaparde, Shrimati Saroj (Maharash­ tra) Kalraj, Shri (Uttar Pradesh) Kalyanasundaram, Shri M. (Tiruchira. Khobragade, Shri B. D. (Maharashtra) palli) Khrime, Shri Riching Khandu (Aru- Kamakshiah, Shri D. (Nellore) nachal West) Kamath, Shri Hari Vishnu (Hoshanga- Kidwai, Shrimati Mohsina (Ajtamgarh) bad) Kishore Lai, Shri (East Delhi) Kamble, Shri B. C. (Bombay South Central) Kisku, Shri Jadunath (Jhargram) Kamble, Prof. N. M. (Maharashtra) Kodiyan, Shri P. K. (Adoor) Kolanthaivelu, Shri R. (Tiruchengode) Kameshwar Singh, Shri (Bihar) Kannan, Shri P. (Salem) Kollur, Shri M. L. (Karnataka) Kapoor, Shri L. L. (Purnea) Kolur, Shri Rajshekhar (Raichur) Kosalram, Shri K. T. (Tiruchendur) Kar, Shri Sarat (Cuttack) Karan Singh, Dr. (Udhampur) Kotrashetti, Shri A. K. (Belgaum) Koya, Shri B. V. Abdulla (Kerala) Kesar, Shri Amrut (Panaji) Kriplani, Shri Krishna (Nominated) Kaushik, Shri Purushottam (Raipur) Krishan Kant, Shri (Chandigarh) Keshwarwani, Shri N'. p. (Bilaspur) Krishna, Shri M. R. (Andhra Pra­ Kesri, Shri Sitaram (Bihar) desh) Khalsa, Shri Basant Singh (Ropar) Krishnan, Shri E. R. (Tamil Nadu) Khan, Shri F. M. (Karnataka) Krishnan, Shri G. Y. (Kolar) Khan, Shri Ghayoor Ali (Uttar Pra­ Krishnan, Shrimati Parvathi (Coimba­ desh) tore) Khan, Shri Ghulanv Mohammad (Mo> Krishnan, Shri U. R. (Tamil Nadu) radabad) Krishnappa, Shri M. V. (Chikballapur) Khan, Shri Ismail Hossain (Barpeta) Kulkami, Shri A. G. (Maharashtra) Khan, Shri Khurshed Alam (Delhi) Kumaran, Shri S. (Kerala) Khan, Shri Kunwar Mahmud Ali Kundu, Shri S. (Balasore) (Hapur) Kunhambu, Shri K. (Ottapalam) Khan, Shri Mahmood'Hasan (Buland- Kunjachen, Shri P. K. (Kerala) shahr) Kureel, Shri Jwala Prasad (Ghatam- Khan, Shri Maqsood Ali (Karnataka) pur) Khan, Shri Mohd. Shamsul Hasan Kureel, Shri Piare Lall urf Piare Lall (Philibhit) Talib (Uttar Pradesh)

Khan Prof. Rasheeduddin (Nominat­ Kureel, Shri R. L. (Mohanlalganj) ed) Kushwaha, Shri Ram Naresh (Salem- Khan, Shitmati Ushi (Rajasthan) pur) I^ahanu Aidavakom, Shri (Dahanu) Malhotra, Shri Vijay Kumar (South Delhi) Xakhan Singh, Shri (Uttar Pradesh) Malik, Shri Mukhtiar Singh (Sonepat) Xakkappa, Shri K. (Tumkur) Malik, Shri Syed Abdul (Assam) Xakshmanan, Shri G. (Tamil Nadu) Mallanna, Shri K. (Shitradurga) Xakshminarayanan, Shri M. R. (Tindi- Mallick, Shri Harekrushna (Orissa) vanani1) Mallick, Shri Rama Chandra (Jaipur) Xal, Shri S. S. (Bayana) Mallikarjun, Shri (Medak) Xalbuaia, Shri (Mizoram) Mandal, Shri B. P. (Madhepura) Xalji Bhai, Shri (Salumber) Mandal, Shri Dhanik Lai (Jhanjhar- Xalu Prasad, Shri (Chapra) pur) liaskar, Shri Nihar (Karimganj) Mandal, Shri Mukunda (Mathurapur) Ximaye, Shri Madhu (Banka) Mane, Shri Rajaram Shonkarrao (Ichalkaranji) Iiokesh Chandra, (Nominated) Mangal Deo, Shri (Akbarpur) Lotha, Shri Khyomo (Nagaland) Manher, Shri Bhagatram (Madhya Lyngdoh, Shri Hopingstone (Shillong) Pradesh) Mankar, Shri Laxman Rao (Bhan- M dara) Manohar Lai, Shri (Kanpur) Machhand, Shri Raghubir Singh (Bhind) Mathey, Shri George (Muvattupuzha) Madhavan, Shri K. K. (Kerala) Maran, shri Murasoli (Tamil Nadu) Magar, Shri Annasaheb (Khed) Mathur, Shri Jagdish Prasad (Sikar) Mathur, Shri Jagdish Prasad (Uttar Mahala, Shri K. L. (Jhunjhunu) Pradesh) Mahale, Shri Hari Shankar (Male- Maurya, Shri Buddha Priya (Andhra gaon) Pradesh) Mahanti, Shri Bhairab Chandra Mavalankar, Prof. P. G. (Gandhi­ (Orissa) nagar) Mahapatrao, Shri Lakshmana (Orissa) Mayathevar, Shri K. (Dindigul) Meduri, Shri Nageshwarar Rao (Tena- Mahata, Shri C. R. (Purulia) li) Mahavir, Dr. Bhai (Madhya Pradesh) Meerza, Shri Syed Kazirn Alj (Mur- shidabad) Mahi Lai, Shri (Bijnor) Mehrotra, Shri Prakash (Uttar Pra­ Mahida, Shri Harisinh Bhagudava desh) (Gujarat) Mehta, Shri Om (Jammu and Kafch- Mahishi, Dr. Sarojini (Dharwar) Mir) ■ North) Mehta, Shri Prasannbhai (Bhavnagar) Maiti, Shrimati Abha (Panskura) Menon, Shrimati Lecla Damodara Majhi, Shri Dhaneshwar (OrisSa) (Kerala) Makwana, Shrj Yogendra (Gujarat) Menon, Shri Vigwanatha (Kerala) Q Vliij

Mhaisekar, Shri Oovindrao Rom- Mulla, Shri Suresh Narain (Uttar chandra (Gujarat) Pradesh)

Mhalgi, Shri R. K. (Thana) Multan Singh, Chaudhary (Jalesar) Mirdha, Shri Nathu Ram (Nagaur) Munda, Shri Govinda (Keonjhar) Mirdha, Shri Ram Niwas (Rajasthan) Munda, Shri Karia (Khunti) Miri, Shri Govind Ram (Sarangarh) Munusamy, Shri V. P. (Pondicherry) Mishra, Shri G. S. (Chhindwara) Murahari, Shri Godey (Vijaywada) Mishra. Shri Janeshwar (Allahabad) Murmu, Father Anthony (Rajmahal) Mishra, Mahendra Mohan (Bihar) Murthey, Shri Kusuma Krishna Mishra, Shri Rishi Kumar (Rajasthan) (Amalapuram)

Mishra, Shri Shyamnandan (Begu- Murthy, Shri M. V. Chandrashekhara sarai) (Kanakpura) Mittal, Srri Sat Paul (Punjab) Murugaiyan, Shri S. G. (Nagapatti- Modak, Shri Bijoy (Hooghly) nam) Mody, Shri Piloo (Gujarat) Murugesan, Shri A. (Chidambaram)

Mohan Bhaiya, Shri (Durg) Muthu, Dr. (Shrimati) Sathiavani Mohanarangam, Shri Ragavalu (Chen- (Tamil Nadu) galapattu) Mohanty, Shri Surendra (Orissa)

Mohd. Hayat Ali, Shri (Raiganj) N Mohideen, Shri S. A. Khaja (Tamil Nadu) Nahar, Shri Bijoy Singh (Calcutta North-West) Mohinder Kaur, Shrimati (Himachal Pradesh) Nahata, Shri Amrit (Pali) Mohinder Singh, Shri (Karnal) Naidu. Shri N. P. Chengalraya (An­ dhra Pradesh) Mohsin, Shri F. H. (Dharwar South) Naidu, Shri P. Rajagopal (Chittoor) Mondal, Shri Ahmad Hossain (West Bengal) Naik, Shri L. R. (Karnataka) Mondal, Dr. Bijoy (Bankura) Naik, Shri S. H. (Nandurbar> Moopanar, Shri G. K. (Tamil Nadu) Naik, Shri V. P. (Washirr.) Morarka, Shri R. R. (Rajasthan) Nair, Shri B. K. (Mavelikara) Moses, Shri M. (Tamil Nadu) Nair, Shri M. N. Govindan (Trivan­ Mukherjee, Shrimati Kanak (West drum) Bengal) Nair, Shri N. Sreekantan (Quilon) Mukherjee, Shri Pranab (West Ben­ Nanda, Shri Narasingha Prasad gal) (Orissa) Mukherjee, Shri Samar (Howrah) Narayana, Shri K. S. (Hyderabad) Mukhoradhyay. Shrimati Purabl (West Bengal) Narendra Singh, Shri (Damoh) (*)

Narendra fltogh, Shri (Uttar Pradesh) Paswan, Shri Ram Vilas (Hajipur> Nataranjan, Shri C. D. (Tamil Nadu) Patel, Shri Ahmed M. (Broach) Nathi Singh, Shri (Rajasthan) Patel, Shri Dharmasinhbhai (Porban- Nathu Singh, Shri (Dausa) dar) Nathuni Ram, Shri (Nawada) Patel, Shri Dwarikadas (Amreli) Nathwani, Shri Narendra P. (Juna- Patel, Shri H. M. (Sabarkantha) gadh) Patel, Km. Maniben Vallabhbhai Nayak, Shri Laxmi Narain (Khaju- (Mehsana) raho) Patel, Shri Manubhai Motilal (Guja­ Nayar, Dr. Sushila (Jhansi) rat) Negi, Shri T. S. (Tehri-Garhwal) Patel, Shri Meetha Lai (Sawai Madho- pur) Nigam, Shri Ladli Mohan (Madhya Pradesh) Patel, Shri Nanubhai N. (Bulsar) Nizam-ud-din, Shri Syed (Jammu and Patel, Shri R. R. (Dadra and Nagar Kashmir) Haveli)

O Pathak, Shri Ananda (West Bengal)- On kar Singh, Shri (Budaun) Patidar, Shri Rameshwar (Khargone) Oraon, Shri Lalu (Lohardaga) Patil, Shri Balasaheb Vikhe (Koper— Oza, Shrj Ghanshyambhaj (Gujarat) gaon)

P Patil, Shri Chandrakant (Hingoli) Pai, Shri T. A. (Udipi) Patil, Shri D. B. (Kolaba) Pajanor, Shri A. Bala (Pondicherry) Patil, Shri Deorao (Maharashtra) Pande, Shri Bishambhar Nath (Nomi­ nated) Patil, Shri S. B. (Bagalkot) Pandey, Shri Ambika Prasad (Banda) Patil, Shri S. D. (Erandol) Pandeya, Dr. Laxminarayan (Mand- Patil, Shri U. S. (Latur) saur) Patil, Shri Vijaykumar N. (Dhulai)* Pant, Shri Krishna Chandra (Uttar Patnalk, Shri Biju (Kendrapara) Pradesh) Patnaik, Shri Sivaji (Bhubaneswar) Pandit, Dr. Vasant Kumar (Rajgarh) Pattanayak, Shri B. C. (Orissa) Paraste, Shri Dalpat Singh (Shahdol) Patwary, Shri H. L. (Mangaldoi) Parikh, Prof. Ramlal (Gujarat) Periasamy, Dr. P. V. (Krishnagiri) Parmai Lai, Shri (Hardoi) Pertin, Shri Kakin (Arunachai East) Parmar, Shri Natwarlal B. (Dhan- dhuka) Phirangi Prasad, Shri (Bansgaon) Parthasarathy, Shri P. (Rajampet) Pipil, Shri Mohan Lai (Khurja) Poddar, Shri R. K. (Bihar) Parulekar, Shri Bapusaheb (Ratna- giri) Poojary, Shri Janardhana (Mangalore> Parvati Devi, Shrimati (Ladakh) Prabhu Singh, Shri (Haryana) 'Pradhan. Shri Amar Roy (Cooch Behar) Raju, Shri V. B. (Andhra Pradesh) Pradhan, Shri Gananath (Sambalpur) Rakesh, Shri R. N. (Chail) Pradhan, Shri Pabitra Mohan (Deo- Ram, Shri R. D. (Palamau) garh) Ram Awadhesh Singh, Shri (Bikram- Pradhan, Shri Patitpaban (Orissa) ganj) Pradhani, Shri K. (Nowrangpur) Ram Charan, Shri (Jalaun) Prasad, Shri K. L. N. (Andhra Pradesh) Ram Deo Singh, Shri (Maharajganj) Prem Manohar, Shri (Uttar Pradesh) Ram Dhan, Shri (Lalganj) Pullaiah, Shri Durur (Anatpur) Ram Gopal Singh, Chaudhury (Bilhaur)

Q Ram Kinkar, Shri (Bara Banki) Ram Kishan, Shri (Bharatpur) ‘Qasim, Syyed Mir (Jammu and Kashmir) Ram Murti, Shri (Bareilly) "Qureshi, Shri Mohd. Shaft (Anantnag) Ram Sagar, Shri (Saidpur) Ramachandran, Shri P. (Madras Cen­ R tral) Rachaiah, Shri B. (Chamarajanagar) Ramalin^am, Shri N. Kundanthai (Mayuram) Raghavendra Singh, Shri (Unnao) Eaghavji, Shri (Vidisha) Ramalingam, Shri P. S. (Nilgiris) Raghbir Singh, Shri (Kurukshera) Ramamurthy, Shri K. (Dharmapuri) Raghu Ramaiah, Shri K. (Guntur) Ramamurti, Shri P. (Tamil Nadu) Rahamathulla, Shri Mohammad (An­ Ramapati Singh, Shri (Motihari) dhra Pradesh) Ramaswamy, Shri K. S. (Gobichetti- R'ahi, Shri Ram Lai (Misrikh) palayam) Rai, Shri Gauri Shankar (Ghazipur) Ramaswamy, Shri S. (Periakulam) Rai, Shri Kalp Nath (Uttar Pradesh) Ramdas Singh, Shri (Giridih) Rai, Shri Narmada Prasad (Sagar) Rameshwar Singh, Shri (Uttar Pra­ Rai, Shri Shiv Ram (Ghosi) desh) Raj Keshar Singh, Shri (Machhli- Ramji Singh, Dr. (Bhagalpur) shahr) Ramjiwan Singh, Shri (Balia) Raj Narain, Shri (Rae Bareli) Ramoowalia, Shri Balwant Singh Rajan, Shri Pattiam (Kerala) (Faridkot) Rajan, Shri K. A. (Trichur) Ranga, Shri N. G. (Andhra Pradesh) Rajasekharam, Shri Palavalasa (And­ Ranganathan, Shri S. (Tamil Nadu) hra Pradedb) Rangnekar, Shrimati Ahilya, P. (Bom- Rajda, Shri Katansinh (Bombay South) bay-North-Central) Rajender Kaur. Shrimati (Punjab) Ranjit Singh, Shri (Hamirpur)

Raju, Shri K. A. (PoKachi) Rao, Shrimati B. Radhabai Ananda Raju, Shri P. V. G. (Bobbfli) (Bhadrachalam) (*1) Rao, Shri G. MaUikarjuna (Warangal) Reddy, Shri M. Ram Gopal (Nizama- bad) Rao, Shri J. Rameshwara (Mahboob- nagar) Reddy, Shri Mulka Govinda (Karna­ taka) Kao, Shri Jagannath (Berhampur) Reddy, Shri P. Bayappa (Hindupur) Rao, Shri Jalagam Kondala (Kham- mam) Reddy, Shri R. Narasimha (Andhra Pradesh) Rao, Shri M. S. Sanjeevi (Kakinada) Reddy, Shri S. R. (Gulbarga) Rao, Shri M. Satyanarayan (Karim- nagar) Rodriques, shri Rudolph (Nominated- Anglo-Indians) Rao, Shri P. V. Narasimha (Hanam- konda) Roshan Lai, Shri (Himachal Pradesh) Rao, Shri Pattabhai R'ama (Rajah- Rothuama, Dr. R'. (Mizoram) mundry) Roy, Shri A. K. (Dhanbad) Rao, Shri Raje Vishveshvar (Chandra­ Roy, Shri Kalyan (West Bengal) pur) Roy, Dr. Saradish (Bolpur) Rao, Shri V. C. Kesava (Andhra Pra­ desh) Roy, Shri Saugata (Barrackpore)

Rasheed Masood, Shri (Saharanpur) S Ratan Kumari, Shrimati (Madhya Pradesh) Saeed Murtaza, Shri (MuzaiTamagar) Rath, Shri Ramachandrg (Aska) Saha, Shri A. K. (Vishnupur) Rathawa, Shri Amarsinh V. (Chhota Udaipur) Saha, Shri Gadadhar (Birbhum) Rathor, Dr. Bhagwan Dass (Hard war) Sahaya, Shri Dayanand (Bihar) Ravi, Shri Vayalar (Chirayinkil) Sahoo, Shri Ainthu (Bodangir) Ravindra Pratap Singh, Shri (Amethi) Sahu, Shri Santosh Kumar (Orissa) Ray. Shri Rabi (Orissa) Sai, Shri Larang (Surguja) Razack, Shrimati Noorjehan (Tamil Sai, Shri Narhari Prasad Sukhdeo Nadu) (Raigarh) Reddy, Shri G. S. (Miryalguda) Saini, Shri Manohar Lai (Mahendra- garh) Reddy, Shri B. Satyanarayan, (Andhra Sait, Shri Ebrahim Sulaiman (Man- Pradesh) jeri) Reddy, Shri G. Narsimha (Adilabad) Saksena, Prof. Shibban Lai (Maharaj- ganj) Reddy, Shri K. Brahmananda (Nara- saraopet) Saleem, Sliri Mohammad Yunus (And­ hra Pradesh) Reddy, Shri K. Obul (Cuddapah) Salve, Shri N. K. P. (Maharashtra) Reddy, Shri K. V. Raghunatha (Andhra Samad, Shri Golandaz Mohammed- Pradesh) husain (Gujarat) Reddy, Shri K. Vijaya Bhaskara. Samantasinhera, Shri Padmacharan (Kurnool) (Purl) txU)

Sangma, Shri P. A. (Tura) Shahi, Shri Nageshwar Prasad (Uttar Pradesh) Sanyal, Shri Sasankasekhar (Jangipur) Shaiza, Shrimati R'ano M. (Nagaland) S a rin g, Shri Leonerd Sotoman (Sikkim) Shakya, Shri Daya Ram (Farrukhabad) Saran, Shri Daulat Ram (Churu) Shakya, Dr. Mahadeepak Singh (Etah) Sarangi, Shri R. P. (Jamshedpur) Shankar Dev, Shri (Bidar) Sarda, Shri S. K. (Ajmer) Shankaranand, Shri B. (Chikkodi)

Sardar, Shri Mahendra Narayan (Ara- Shanti Bhushan, Shri (Uttar Pradesh) ria) Shanti Devi, Shrimati (Sambhal) Sarkar, Shri S- K. (Joynagar) Sharma, Shri Ajit Kumar (Assam) Sarsonia, Shri Shiv Narain (Karol Sharma, Shri Anant Prasad (Bihar) Bagh) Sharma, Shri Jagannath (Garhwal) Sarup Singh, Dr. (Haryana) Sharma, Shri Kishan Lai (Rajasthan) Satapathy, Shri Devendra (Dhenkanal) Sharma, Shri Rajendra Kumar (Ram- Satchidananda, Shri (Karnataka) pur)

Sathe, Shri Vasant (Akola) Sharma, Shri Yagya Datt (Gurdaspur) Satya Deo Singh, Shri (Gonda) Sharma, Shri Yogendra (Bihar) Satyanarayana, Shri Dronam Raju Shastri, Shri Bhanu Kumar (Udaipur) Shastri, Shri Bhola Paswan (Bihar) (Visakhapatnam) Shastri, Shri Ram Dhari (Padrauna) Sayian Wala, Shri Mohinder Singh (Ferozepur) Shastri, Shri Y. P. (Rewa) Sayeed, Shri P. M. (Lakshadweep) Sheikh, Shri Abdul Rehman (Uttar Pradesh) Schamnad, Shri Hamid Aii (Kerala) Sheikh, Shri Ghouse Mohiuddin (And­ Scindia, Shri Madhavrao (Guna) hra Pradesh) Scindia, Shrimati Vijaya Raje (Madhya Shejwalkar, Shri N. K. (Gwalior) Pradesh) Sheo Narain, Shri (Basti) Sen, Shri Prafulla Chandra (Aram- bagh) Sher Singh, Prof. (Rohtak) Sen, Shri Robin (Asansol) Sheth, Shri Vinodbhai B. (Jamnagar) Sethi, Shri P. C (Madhya Pradesh) Shinde, Shri Annasaheb P. (Ahmed- nagar) Seyid Muhammad, Dr. V. A. (Calicut) Shiv Sampati Ram, Shri (Roberts- Sezhiyan, Shri Era (Tamil Nadu) ganj) Shah, Shri D. P. (Bastar) Shrangare, Shri T. S. (Osmanabad) Shah Shri Surath Bahadur (Kheri) Shrikrishna Singh, Shri (Monghyr) Shah, Shri Viren J- (Gujarat) Shukla, Shri Chimanbhai H. (Rajkot) Shahedullah, Shri Syed (West Shukla, Shri Madan Lai (Janjgir) Bengal) ( xiii 'I

Shyamkumad Devi, Shrimati (Madhya Sunna Sahib, Shri A. (Palghat) Pradesh) Suraj Bhan, Shri (Ambala) Siddhu, Dr. M. M. S- (Uttar Pradesh) Surendra Bikram, Shri (Sahajahan- Sikander Bakht, Shri (Chandi Chowk) pur) Singh, Dr. B. N- (Hazaribagh) Surendra Mohan, Shri (Uttar Pra­ Singh, Shri Bhishma Narain (Uttar desh) Pradesh) Surjit, Shri Harkishan Singh (Pun­ Singh, Shri J. K. P. N. (Bihar) jab) Singh, Shri Ng. Tompok (Manipur) Surya Narain Singh, Shri (Sidhi) Singh, Shrimati Pratibha (Bihar) Suryanarayana, Shri K. (Eluru) Swaminathan, Shri R. V. (Madurai) Singh, Shri Shiva Nandan (Uttar Pra­ desh) Swaminathan, Shri V. V. (Tamil Singha, Shri Sachindralal (Tripura Nadu) West) Swamy, Shri Sidrameshwara (Kop- Sinha, Shri C. M. (May ur thanj) pal) Sinha, Shri H. L. P. (Jehanabad) Swamy, Dr. Subramaniam (Bombay North-East) Sinha, Shri Indradeep (Bihar) Sinha, Shri M. P. (Patna) Swatantra, Shri Jagannath Prasad (Bagaha) Sinha, Shri Purnanarayan (Tezpur) Swu, Shri Scato (Nominated) Sinha, Dr. Ramkripal (Bihar) T Sinha, Shri Satyendra Narayan (Au­ rangabad). Talwandi, Shri Jagdev Singh (Lu­ dhiana) Sisodia, Shri Sawaisingh (Madhya Pradesh) Tan Singh, Shri (Barmer) Somani, Shri Roop Lai (Bhilwara) Tej Pratap Singh, Shri (Hamirpur) Somani, Shri S. S. (Chittorgarh) Thakur, Shri Aghan Singh (Kanker) Somasundaram, Shri S- D. (Thanja- Thakur, Shri Krishnarao (Chimur) vur) Thiagarajan, Shri P. (Sivaganga) Soni, Shrimati Ambika (Punjab) Thomas, Shri Skariah (Kottayan^ Stephen. Shri C. M. (Idukki) Thorat, Shri Bhausaheb (Pandharpur) Subramaniam, Shri C. (Palani) Tilak, Shri J. S. (Maharashtra) Sudheeran, Shri V. M. (Alleppey) Tirkey, Shri Pius (Alipurduar) Sujan Singh, Shri (Haryana) Tiwari, Shri Brij Bhushan (Khalilla- Sukhendra Singh, Shri (Satna) bad) Sultan, Shrimati Maimoona (Madhya Tiwary, Shri D. N. (Gopalganj) Pradesh) Tiwary, Shri Madan (Rajnandgaon) Sultan Singh, Shri (Haryana) Tiwary, Shri Ramanand (Buxar) Suman, Shri Ramji Lai (Ferozabad) Tohra, Shri G. S. (Patiala) Suman, Shri Surendra Jha (Dar- Tombi Singh, Shri N. (Inner Mani­ bhanga) pur) C xi v )

Totu, Shri Gian Chand (Himachal Verma, Shri Brij Lai (Mahasamund) Pradesh) Verma, Shri Chandradeo Prasad (Ar- Triloki Singh, Shri (Uttar Pradesh) rah) Tripathi, Shri Kamlapati (Uttar Pra­ Verma, Shri Hargovind (Sitapur) desh) Verma, Shri Mritunjay Prasad (Si- Tripathi, Shri Madhav Prasad (Do- wan) mariaganj) Verma, Shri Phool Chand (Shajapur) Tripathi, Shri Ram Prakash (Kan- nauj) Verma, Shri R. L. P. (Koderma) Tulsiram, Shri V. (Peddapalli) Verma, Shri Raghunath Singh (Main- puri) Tur, Shri Mohan Singh (Taran Ta- ran) Verma, Shri Shrikant (Madhya Pra­ desh) Tyagi, Shri Cm Prakash (Bahraich) Verma, Shri Sukhdev Prasad (Chat- V ra) Ugrasen, Shri (Deoria) Visvanathan, Shri C. N. (Tiruppattur)

Unnikrishnan, Shri K. P. (Badagara) W V Warjri, Shri Alexander (Meghalaya) Y Vaghela, Shri Shankersinhji (Kapad- vanj) Yadav, Shri Gyaneshwar Prasad (Khagaria) Vaishampayen, Shri S. K. (Maharash­ tra) Yadav, Shri Hukmdeo Narain (Ma- dhubani) Vajpayee, Shri Atal Bihari (New Delhi) Yadav, Shri Jagdambi Prasad (God- da) Vakil, Shri Abdul Ahad (Baramulla) Yadav, Shri Narsingh (Chandauli) Varma, Shri Bhagwati Charan (Nomi­ nated) Yadav, Shri Ramanand (Bihar) Varma, Shri Mahadeo Prasad (Uttar Yadav, Shri Ramjilal (Alwar) Pradesh) Yadav, Shri Sharad (Jabalpur) Varma, Shri Ravindra (Ranchi) Yadav, Shri Shyam Lai (Uttar Pra­ Vasisht, Shri Dharma Vir (Faridabad) desh) Veerabhadrappa, Shri K. S. (Bellary) Yadav, Shri Vinayak Prasad (Sah- Venigalla, Shri Satyanarayan (Andhra arsa) Pradesh) Yadav, Shri Roop Nath Singh (Pra- Venka, Shri V. (Tamil Nadu) tapgarh) Venkataraman, Shri R. (Madras Yadvendra Dutt, Shri (Jaunpur) South) Yuvraj, Shri (Katihar) Venkatareddy, Shri P. (Ongole) Venkatrao, Shri Chadalavada (Andhra Z Pradesh) Venkatasubbaiah, Shri P. (Nandyal) Zakaria, Dr. Rafiq (Maharashtra) Venkatswamy, Shri G. (Siddipet) Zulflquarullah, Shri (Sultanpur) (XV)

JOINT SITTING OF THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT

The Speaker Shri K. S. Hegde

The Deputy-Speaker Shri Godey Murahari

The Deputy Chairman Shri Ram Niwas Mirdha

Secretary Shri Avtar Singh Rikhy GOVERNMENT OF INDIA

Members of Cabinet

The Prime Minister Shri Morarji R. Desai

The Minister of Home Affairs Shri Charan Singh

The Minister of Defence Shri Jagjivftn Ram

The Minister of Information and Shri L. K. Advani Broadcasting

The Minister of Agriculture and Shri Surjit Singh Barnalp Irrigation

The Minister of Petroleum & Chemi­ Shri H. N. Bahuguna cals and Fertilizers

The Minister of Works and Housing Shri Sikander Baklit and Supply and Rehabilitation

The Minister of Law, Justice and Shri Shanti Bhushan Company Affairs

The Minister of Education, Social Dr. Pratap Chandra Chunaer Welfare and Culture

The Minister of Railways Prof. Madhu Dandavate

The Minister of Commerce and Civil Shri Mohan Dharia Supplies and Cooperation

The Minister of Industry Shri George Fernandes

The Minister of Tourism and Civil Shri Purushottam Kau Aviation

'The Minister of Health and Family Shri Raj Narain Welfare

The Minister of Finance Shri H. M. Patel

The Minister of Steel and Mines Shri Biju Patnaik The Minister of Energy Shri P. Ramachandr&n

The Minister of External Affairs Shri Atal Bihari Vajpav**

The Minister of Parliamentary Shri Ravindra Varma Affairs and Labour

"The Minister of Communications Shri Brijlal Verma

{ xvi ) (x v ii) Ministers of State

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Satish Agrawal o f Finance

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Arif Beg of Commerce and Civil Supplies and Cooperation

The Minister of State in charge of Shri Chand Ram the Ministry of Shipping and Trans­ port

The Minister o State in the Ministry Shri Krishna Kumar Goyal of Commerce and Civil Supplies and Cooperation

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Dhanna Singh Gulshan of Education, Social Welfare and Culture

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Ram Kinkar of Works and Housing and Supply and Rehabilitation

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri S. Kundu of External Affairs The Minister of State in the Ministry Shrimati Abha Maiti of Industry The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Dhanik Lai Mandal of Home Affairs

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Janeshwar Mishra of Petroleum and Chemicals and Fertilizers

Th Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Karia Munda of Steel and Mines

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri S. D. Patil of Home Affairs

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Fazlur Rahman of Energy

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Larang Sai of Labour and Parliamentary Affairs

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Narhari Prasad Sukhdeo Sai of Communications

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Sheo Narain of Railways

The Minister of State in the Ministry Prof. Sher Singh of Defence U57 LS—2. ( xviii )

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Bhanu pratap Singhi of Agriculture and Irrigation

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Jagblr Singh Of information and Broadcasting

The Minister of State in the Ministry Dr. Earn Kirpal Sinha> of Labour and Parliamentary Affairs

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Jagdambi Prasad Yadav of Health and Family Welfare

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Narsingh Yadav of Law, Justice and Company Affairs

The Minister of State in the Ministry Shri Zulflquarullah of Finance The Minister of State in the Ministry Shrimati Renuka Devi Barakatatcn of Education, Social Welfare and Culture s

CONTENTS

Tuesday, M ay 16, 1978/ Vaisakha 26, 1900 ( Saka)

C olumns Welcome A d d r e s s ...... 1

Banking Service Commission (Repeal) B ill-

Laid on the Table as passed by Lok Sabha and rejected by Rajya S a b h a ...... 2

Points o f O r d e r ...... 2—3r

Banking Service Commission (Repeal) B i l l ...... 31— 150

Motion to consider 31—-138

Shri H. M. P a t e l ...... 31—38, 113—25 Shri Kamlapati T r ip a t h i...... 39—42

Shri R. R. M o ra rk a ...... 42—47

Shri T. A. P a i ...... 48—55 Shri Gauri Shankar Rai ...... 53—58.

Shri P. Ramamurti ...... 58—63.

Shri George F e r n a n d e s ...... 63—69.

Shri A. Bala Pajanor...... 70—76

Shri Pranab M u k h e r je e ...... 76—8 ;

Dr. Subramaniam S w a m y ...... 83—87

Shri Devendra Nath D w i v e d i ...... 87— 93

Shri Bhupesh G u p ta...... 93—9 7 Dr. Murli Manohar J o s h i...... 97—100

Shri Dajiba D e s a i ...... 100— 102 Shri C. M. S tep h en ...... 102—10&

Shri Sankar G h o s e ...... 108—11

Shri A. K. R o y ...... i n —13 C olum ns Clauses 2 to 5 and ...... 138—47

Motion to pass, as amended ...... M 7

Shri H. M. P a t e l ...... 147

Prof. P. G. M a v a la n k a r ...... i 47“"5° JOINT SITTING CF THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT

V o l . I N o . I

JOINT SITTING OF THE HOUSES 11.02 hrs. OF PARLIAMENT BANKING SERVICE COMMISSION Tuesday, May 16, 1978/Vaisafcha 26, (REPEAL) BILL 1900 (Saka) L aid o n th e T able as passed b y L o k S a b h a a n d rejected b y R a j y a S a b h a

SECRETARY: Sir, I lay on the Table The Houses of Parliament met in joint sitting in the Central Hall of Parlia­the Bill to repeal the Banking Ser­ ment House at Eleven of the Clock. vice Commission Act, 1975, as passed by Lok Sabha and rejected by Rajya

[M b . S p e a k e r in the Chair], Sabha.

WELCOME ADDRESS POINTS OF ORDER

MR. SPEAKER: Members of Parlia­ SHRI K. LAKKAPFA (Tumkur): ment, I welcome you all to this Joint Sir, I rise on a point of order. sitting of both Houses of Parliament. In the history of our Parliament, this SHRI S. S. LAL (Bayana) rose (in­ is the second occasion when such a terruptions) joint sitting has been called. MR. SPEAKER: This is a joint The first occasion when both the session; nothing can be discussed Houses were summoned to a joint sit­ except the Banking Service Commis­ ting, it would be recalled was in May sion (Repeal) Bill. 1961, to deliberate and vote upon the Dowry Prohibition Bill. (Interruptions)

The present joint sitting of the MR*. SPEAKER: Don’t record. Houses, as you all know, is for delibe­ rating and voting on the Banking (Interruptions) * * • Service Commission (Repeal) Bill, 1977. MR. SPEAKER; Order, order. Please This Bill, passed by Lok Sabha on the sit down. I am on my legs. 5th December, 1977, was rejected by Rajya Sabha on the 8th December, 1977. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Nothing other than Before I ask the Secretary to lay the business relating to the joint sitt­ the Bill on the Table, may I say that ing will go on record. There is no I look forward to fruitful deliberations, point in raising anything other than conducted in the best traditions of our the business relating to the joint sitt­ Parliament? ing. That is the rule. Mr. Lakkappa.

•••Not recorded. 3 Points of Order MAY 16, 1978 Point*of Order

SHRI K. LAKKAPPA: Mr. Speaker, Again, you have mentioned: S ir...... “The House shall stand adjourned w w wiw snfa) : sine die upon the completion of the t*np?r *m» irriT f ...... i business to be considered at the Joint sitting.” MR. SPEAKER: I have called Mr. Lakkappa. But the Rajya Sabha hag not been adjourned sine die. Therefore, the precedent of 1961 for convening a joint SHRI SHYAM LAL YADAV: Please sitting is not being followed so far as .give me the second chance. this joint sitting is concerned. There­ MR. SPEAKER: There i5 no contract. fore, there is a lacuna in convening this joint sitting. SHRI K. LAKKAPPA: I am grate­ ful to you for giving me this oppor­ Not only is there a lacuna in conven­ tunity. This is the first joint sitting ing the joint sitting thus to consider of both the Houses in my experience the Bill to repeal the Banking Ser­ o f Parliament. vice Commission Act, 1975, but the joint sitting should not have been MR. SPEAKER: Please formulate called for the reason that the Banking your point of order. Service Commission Act, 1975, is one of the landmarks of the previous SHRI K. LAKKAPPA: My point of Government. Such a legislation is the order relates to the procedure adopted 3 and mark of the previous Government. lo convene this joint sitting to consider the Bill to repeal the Banking Service MR. SPEAKER; Please confine Commission Act, 1975, as passed by yourself to the point of order You Lok Sabha and rejected by Rajya cannot make a speech. Sabha. It is on two counts. SHRI K. LAKKAPPA: I am on a The joint sitting envisages a special point of procedure. Also I am oppos­ procedure. Most of the points regard­ ing the Bill on the ground that when ing that were raised by hon. Members a progressive legislation was passed in on the floor of the Lok Sabha, but I 1975 by the previous Government, the take this opportunity to raise this present Government is taking not issue on two counts. I would like to only-----(Interruptions) mention for the benefit of this session the procedure adopted in 1961. When MR. SPEAKER: If you are not on a the amendments to the Dowry Bill were point of order, I will not allow. rejected and they were considered in a joint sitting in 1961, both the Rajya SHRI K. LAKKAPPA: Sir, I am on Sabha and the Lok Sabha adjourned a point of order. sine die on 5th May, 1961. A joint sitting was held on 6th May and 9th MR. SPEAKER: No, it is not a point May, 1961. The question is whether a of order. I do not allow it. joint sitting can be held when the House or Houses have not adjourned sine die. If you look at the records, SHRI K. LAKKAPPA: I humbly yesterday you, in your wisdom, have submit to you that there are certain said clearly: procedural angles. It is not even in conformity with the procedure adopt­ “The House stands adjourned ed in the joint sitting to enact what­ till 11 hours tomorrow when it is to ever the Finance Minister has brought meet In a joint sitting with the forward. He i8 not within his rights Rajya Sabha.” to pass such a Bill which opposes even 5 Point* of Order VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Points of Order the very basic principle* and also the The next is very important— Act passed by the previous Govern­ ment. “The President may, unless the Bill has lapsed by reason of a dissolution With these words, I oppose this Bill. of the House of the people, notify to the Houses by message if they are sit­ SHRI B. SHANKARANAND (Chik- ting or by. public notification if they kodi): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am rising are not sitting, his intention to sum­ on a point of order about the very mon them to meet in a joint sitting validity of this Joint sitting. for the purpose of deliberating and voting on the Bill.” You may recall that yesterday in Lok Subha while adjourning the House Then, this is what article 108(3) says: sine die as per Bulletin Part I of Lok Sabha, you have said: “The House stands adjourned till 11 hours tomor­ “Where the President has under row when it is to meet in a Joint clause ( 1) notified his intention of sitting with the Rajya Sabha. The summoning the Houses to meet in a House shall gtand adjourned sine die joint sitting, neither House shall upon the completion of the business to proceed further with the Bill, but lie considered at the Joint Sitting.” the President may at any time after the date of his notification summon That means, the Lok Sabha is still the House to meet in a joint sitting continuing its sitting under the sum­ for the purpose specified in the noti­ mons under Article 85 of the Constitu­ fication and, if he does so, the Houses tion. Article 81(1) says: shall meet accordingly.”

“The President shall from time to There is a distinction between article time summon each House of Parlia­ 108(3) and clause (1) where a reference ment to meet at such time and place is made about the sitting of both the as he thinks fit, but six months shall Houses and where the President has to not intervene between its last sit­ notify the intention. But in clause (3), ting in one session and the date ap­ there is no reference to the sitting of pointed for its first sitting in the the House. It means that in the ab­ next session.” sence of the reference of the sitting If the Lok Sabha is sitting under the of the House in clause (3), a joint ses­ summon issued by the President under sion has to be convened only when Article 85, then this Joint Session can­ both the Houses are not sitting. This not be held because the Joint sitting is fortified by the summons issued by can be held only under Article 108(3). the President in 1961 when a similar I will read out that Article also, I joint sitting was held. 'quote 108 (1) of the Constitution: I would like to bring to the notice “ 108(1) If after a Bill has been of the House what happened in 1961. passed by one House and transmit­ It is on p. 35 of the Kaul and Shafc- ted to the other House— dher on “Practice & Procedure of Parliament”. It is mentioned that the (a) the Bill is rejected by the President has to issue a Message to Other House; or the House. Of course, the Message (b) the Houses have finally disagre­ has to be notified. The date of the Message is very important. The Mes­ ed as to the amendments to be made in the Bill: or sage was notified on 18th April, 1961. The Message reads like this; (c) more than six months elapse from the date of the reception of the “Whereas after the Dowry Prohi­ Bill by the other House without the bition Bill. 1959, has been passed by Hill being passed by it.” the Lok Sabha and transmitted to Point* of Order MAY 16, 1078 Pointsof Order fc

[Shri B. Shankaranand] “The President, in exercise of the powers conferred by clause (3) of the Rajya Sabha, the Rajya Sabha article 108 of the Constitution, hav­ and the Lok Sabha have finally dis­ ing been pleased to direct that a agreed as to the amendments to be joint sitting of the Rajya Sabha and made in the said Bill; Lok Sabha be held at New Delhi for the purpose of deliberating and vot­ NOW, THEREFORE, in exercise ing on the Dowry Prohibition Bill, of the powers conferred by clause 1959, and to appoint Saturday, the (1) of article 108 of the constitution 6th May, 1961 at 11 A.M. as the date I...... hereby notify my intention to for the commencement of the said “summon the Rajya Sabha and Lok joint sitting, you -----are hereby Sabha to meet in a joint sitting for summoned to the said joint sitting, the purpose of deliberating and vot­ at the place and the date aforesaid.” ing on that BUI.”

This is dated 18th April, 1961. Today, we do not have this summons. The hon. Members may kindly see what The next is the Order of the Presi­ they have received in the name of dent. This is very important. This summons. It is not the summons but is the basic on which I am objecting an order. I have got a copy of the the validity of the joint sitting today. order also. It is not in the form of The Order of the President is dated summons. It gives only the order. 22nd April, 1981. The form of the No doubt, they have said that it is a Order is as follows: summons. But it is not a summons in the form in which it was issued for “In exercise of the powers confer­ the first joint sitting held in 1961. This red upon me by clause (3) of article is only an order that has been issued. 108 of the Constitution, I hereby We have not received the summons, as summon the Rajya Sabha and Lok it was issued on 27th April, 1961. Sabha to meet in a joint sitting at New Delhi on Saturday, the 6th May, 1961 at 11 AM for the purpose of There are three stages in this. One deliberating and voting on the Dow­ is notifying the President’s intention. That is one stage. Then the President r y Prohibition Bill, 1959.” passing the order summoning the joint sitting is the second stage and the This is dated 22nd April, 1961. A third is the summons finally to be Gazette Extraordinary was published issued to the Members of both the giving the text of the Order. Houses. In this case we have not received the summons as is envisaged And then there is the summons. in the provisions of law. This summons is wanting here. This joint sitting is meeting today without this summons. That is why I am tak­ In the last joint sitting in 1961, both ing objection to the sitting of the joint the Houses were adjourned on 5th sitting today. The form of the sum­ May___ mons given on p. 36. It reads like this: MR. SPEAKER: You have made the point. JOINT SITTING OF HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: On SUMMONS 6th May he signed the order. Here to-day it is something else. Both the Parliament House Houses are sitting and a joint sitting New Delhi, 27th April, 1961. to be called under the provisions of 9 Points of Order VA1SAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Points of Order to

law under Art 108, clause (3). So, Therefore Art 108(c) could not law­ under these circumstances I say this fully and validity be invoked to call a joint sitting is invalid, illegal and any joint sitting. That time provided has deliberation that takes place will not not elapsed. Therefore, Art 108(c) is have the support of the Law and any not attracted and the power to call the law passed in this sitting will be chal­ joint session cannot be invoked. 108 lenged in a court of law and it will not (a) is palpably not applicable because be held as valid in any court of the Rajya Sabha did not reject the law ...... Bill. The Rajya Sabha refused to consider the Bill. The Supreme Court SHRI VASANT SATHE (Akola): I has said that when you are construing am on a point of order. the words of the Constitution, you have to give the words the meaning MR. SPEAKER': Shri Sankar the existing, not what meaning you Ghose give in subsequent rules. I shall come to the subsequent rules. They have SHRI SANKAR GHOSE (West Ben­ no validity in construing the words of gal): The point of order that I wish the Constitution. You are an eminent to raise is that the mandatory provi­ Judge and you know that fully. Parti­ sions of Art. 108 have not been com- cularly in the Gannon Dunkerley case lied with and, therefore, any legisla­ the Supreme Court said ‘when the tion that may be passed in this constitution provided that State can “historic sitting” will be struck down tax a sale, then States cannot say, *1 by the Supreme Court. can tax a sale but I will define ‘sale’ to include something which is not a Art. 108 allows a joint sitting to be sale.’ The Supreme Court said, ‘You called only under three circumstances cannot, do it.’ If you have the power to tax *a sale*, you can only tax a sale which was understood as a sale when (1) When there is a disagreement the Constitution was passed. There­ on an amendment. That is not the fore if by subsequent legislation you case here. say that an agreement for sale which is not a sale or a works contract (2) When a Bill is placed in the which is not a sale .... Rajya Sabha for consideration and it is allowed for consideration and then MR. SPEAKER’: You are not to ar­ allows clause-by-clause debate and gue. You should only formulate your then puts it for passing; at the stage point. That you have done. of passing, It is either accepted or rejected. If at the stage of passing SHRI SANKAR GHOSE: I am for­ it is rejected, then a joint sitting can mulating this point that this notifica­ be called. tion ___

(3) A joint sitting can also be '.'ail­ SHRI VIREN J. SHAH rose. ed if the Rajya Sabha does not reject the Bill but say that it shall not e v e n MR. SPEAKER: No, please. This consider the Bill, let alone reject It. is not a debate. If it does not consider th e Bill and if six months elapse and nothing is SHRI SANKAR GHOSE: I am glad passed then, under Art. 108(c), a joint that he has raised it. I refer to the sitting can be called. That six months Rajya Sabha debate of 18th December, have not passed, because th e Lok 1977. The factual position is this. Sabha passed the Bill in December. It went to the Rajya Sabha in Decem­ “MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; I ber itself and it was not considered. shall now put the motion by Shri H. Six months have not yet elapsed. M. Patal, 1 1 Points of Order MAY 16, 1978 Points of Order 12

the President which is supposed to be under Art. 108. Therefore, there seems ‘That the Bill to repeal the Bonk­ to be a little irregularity in this matter. ing Services Act 1975 as passed by the Lok Sabha be taken into consi­ A point has been raised about the deration”. Houses not being adjourned sine die and about our being called to meet in The motion was negatived. The a joint sitting of the Houses of Parlia­ Rajya Sabha did not reject the Bill: ment. We were called under Art. 108 the Rajya Sabha said it will not consi­ of the Constitution. I am not disput­ der the BiU. ing the right of the President, even Therefore, Art. 108(a) is not att­ during the session, to summon the racted. Art. 108(c) could be attracted two Houses of Parliament to meet in a if six months had passed which have joint sitting. But then. Sir, the Consti­ not. Therefore, this whole sitting tution has grown over the years, asso­ will be bad and it will be a shame to ciated with conventions and prece­ Parliament that so many law-makers dents. That is what happens to a writ­ who are assembled here should pass a ten Constitution. Conventions'some­ legislation which would be struck down times do acquire the force, as it were, by the Supreme Court of an associate block of the Constitu­ tion. In fact, it is through customs Such a thing happened in the case and conventions!—and conventions in particular—that we develop our consti­ -of Himachal Pradesh. A Notification tutional practices and working of the was issued by the Governor convening Constitution. We do not have any a session of the House. But because precedents in this matter, excepting the the mandatory provision was not com­ one in 1961 when the anti-dowry mat­ plied with, the Court said it was not ter came up before the joint sitting. I a matter of internal procedure and it had the privilege of participating in the was not a matter of rule, and the joint sitting. None of us. Sir, then whole thing was struck down. raised a point of order with regard to You are an eminent judge. This is the joint sitting because it was called a legal question: you can call the after both the Houses had adjourned Attorney General and take his views, stn« die it was not called during the because this is not a partisan matter. continuance of the sittings of the two This session is bad: the whole pro­ Houses. ceedings will be bad. MR. SPEAKER: Kindly formulate SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West your point and not argue. Bengal): My point of order is simple and plain enough for all to see. It is SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Points get plain enough for all to see, who are formulated as you speak. Points, like ready to see the point of order. everything else, get formulated as you speak and I am sure you. with your We have got what is allegedly cal­ rich experience, both as a judge and led ‘summons’ from the President. If person conversant with parliamentary vou look at the summons you will find affairs and other things, know how that the wording of it and the presen­ points get formulated. tation of the summons to Members of Parliament is somewhat different from MR. SPEAKER: That is why I said, the summons we received when the you are not to argue: you are only to first session of every year. viz. the formulate your point. budget session starts. Although it bear? th* heading ‘Summons’ fit the SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I am be­ top. we were served with an order of holden to you for your guidance and Point# Order VAISAKHA 26, 1800 (SAKA) Points of Order 14

1 hope you will see the point as it is commit an illegal act. 1 submit that being formulated. we are not under obligation, nor is the President under his oath of office cal­ The point of order is this: prece­ led upon to do an unconstitutional dents have been violated. That is num­ act-----(Interruptions). The Presi­ ber one* and 1 raised it in the House. dent has called a joint sitting of the We were informed of the joint sitting two Houses to consider a matter which in the House, even before we received does not exist; to repeal a law which any kind of alleged summons. 1 do has lapsed and is dead under Article not hold the President responsible; 1 123. This is a fraud on the Constitu­ hold the Government responsible for tion on the part of the Government, misguiding and misleading the Presi­ Shri Morarji Desai, the Prime Minister dent by its constitutional advice. of the country and the Minister who This is what I say. The Government is has given such an advice to the Presi­ responsible for misleading the Presi­ dent. dent in giving an advice which has led to an act on the part of the President MR. SPEAKER: You are going into which cuts at the root of the constitu­ the merits of the case; I am not going tional conventions that we pursued, as to allow this. I referred to, in 1961. SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I want a ruling from you. Then, again, there is an interesting thing about the Bill itself that we will MR. SPEAKER: 1 will give that. discuss. Clause 5 of the Bill refers SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Sir, my to the Banking Service Commission (Repeal) Ordinance, 1977 and it says contention is that the summons are that this Ordinance ‘is hereby repealed’ valid. The President has called upon How are we asked by the President to Parliament to repeal a law or Ordin­ consider a clause which relates to a ance which does not exist. I want to non-existent Ordinance? Under Arti­ know, whether there exists such an cle 123 of the Constitution, the Bank­ Ordinance which we have been called ing Service Commission ORepeal) Ordi­ upon to repeal today. If not. then I nance, 1977 lapsed on the 26th Decem­ would request you to declare this joint sittings as dissolved, it has no locus ber because six weeks had alrady laps­ standi. ed by that time, had expired at that time after the Ordinance had been laid The final point that I want to make on the Table of Lok Sabha. We are in this connection is this. The normal all now asked to consider and vote practice is that when the Ordinance is lor a non-existent thing. Where is the rejected by the other House, it is re­ Banking Service Commission Ordin­ considered. The Prime Minister ance? I ask you to tell me, whether should consider and you should consi­ such an Ordinance exists under law. der, Sir, that we did not vote it out; There is no such Ordinance; it is non­ but we did not accept it for conside­ existent under law. ration. You have to give a ruling whether having regard to the fact Here again, the President has been that the Rajya Sabha had not agreed advised by Shri Morarji Desai, Prime to the consideration, it should not have Minister of the country and his Gov­ been remitted to the other House for ernment to call a joint sitting of the reconsideration .... (Interruptions). two Houses to- do the most absurd thing to consider or give our recom­ One more point, and this Is the final mendations on non-existent Ordin­ point. This joint sitting could have ance, the Ordinance, which has already been called as soon as the Rajya Snbhn lapsed. Many strange things have turned down the consideration motion happened. We have been asked to on 8th December. Why did they wait 15 Points of Order MAY 18, 1978 Points of Order

[Shri Bhupesh Gupta] date of hi« notification summon the for five or gix months? For the bien­ Houses to meet in a joint sitting. nial Rajya Sabha election? They The first stage is that, under article wanted to wait lor the biennial elec­ tions. ... 108(1), the President must notify his intention to summon both the Houses MR. SPEAKER: You cannot go on to meet in a Joint sitting. That can like this. be done even when the two Houses are sitting. There is no doubt about that. SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: This again But the first order, the first notifica­ was unprecedented on the part of the tion, must be that he intends to sum­ Government___ mon. Please see this:

MR. SPEAKER: No more please. “ -----the President may, unless That point has been covered. the Bill has lapsed by reason of a dissolution of the House of the Peo­ SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: The Lok ple, notify to the Houses by message Sabha seems to have a different way if they are sitting or by public noti­ oi functioning. What I say is that fication if they are not sitting, his Government should have arranged for intention to summon th em ....” the joint sitting earlier instead of waiting for the biennial elections to I want to know where is this message increase their number in the Rajya that he wants to summon the two Sabha and then come here with this. Houses to meet in a joint sitting. A se­ parate message has to be there in terms MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Stephen. of article 103(1). And this is all that we have now—this order. If this order SHRI VASANT SATHE: I am on a is to be treated as the message in terms point of order. of article 10801), then the next stage will be the provision in sub-clause (3) MR. SPEAKER: The Leader of the of Article 108, because two stages Opposition is here. must be there. ‘There the President SHRI VASANT SATHE: I want to has under clause ( 1) notified his inten­ raise a point of order. tion. . . .but the President at any time after the date of notification’—after MRL SPEAKER: Yes. that date, not simultaneously, not suddenly, not at one stroke, after that SHRI VASANT SATHE: Sir, in all d a te the time must lapse and then he humility I want to point out to this can call both the Houses to a Joint august joint sitting of both the Houses sitting for the purpose specified there­ a basic lacuna. The whole thing will in. b ecom e unnecessarily invalid and ille­ gal if we do not overcome this lacuna Now these two stages have not taken in terms of the Constitution itself. place and. therefore, these summons Kindly see the provisions of article so called ordered here are inherent in 108(3) of the Constitution. I will read terms of Article 108(1) and Article it out for your benefit. There are two 108(3). I hope you will uphold, other­ stages. Article 108(3) reads: wise the whole thing will become ille­ gal. “ Where the President has under clause ( 1) notified his intention of MR. SPEAKER: I have heard summoning the Houses to meet in a enough. I am not hearing any more. (Interruptions). joint sitting, neither House shall pro­ ceed further with the Bill, but the MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Stephen, I cal­ President may at any time after the led you but you did not come. I cal­ , 7 Point! of Order VAISAKHA 26, 1900(SAKA) Points of Order i»

led you first You were not willing to vened since the President notified come. his intention to summon the Houses to meet therein.*’ SHRI C. M. STEPHEN (Idukki): Mr. Speaker, the point I make is entirely different The ground is entirely Kindly understand the Implication. different from the ground so far urged. The President make8 a Notification to My difficulty arises from an announce, summon the Joint sitting. After that ment you made in the House yester­ the House of the People Is dissolved. day when the House adjourned. The The Article says, although the House announcement was—‘that the House of the People is dissolved, although the would stand adjourned till U A.M. Rouse o f the people does not exist, to-morrow and will meet in Joint Ses­ still as per the original notification, sion and will stand adjourned sine die the J6int Sitting can be had. These after the Joint Session*. This was the means the 'Joint sitting is not a com­ announcement made. To my mind bined sitting of the two Houses, be­ this announcement has created difficul­ cause the House of the People is dis­ ties. The question I am raising is— solved. But the joint sitting is a sit­ what is the nature of the Joint sitting? ting of the Members of the two Houses. Is it that the two Houses, as two This means that the Joint sitting !s Houses of Parliament come together, contemplated by the Constitution as just another sitting of the two Houses another Chamber even as the Lok together, or is it a separate chamber? Sabha is and the Rajya Sabha is- There is a House of People. There is If Joint sitting is another sitting un­ the Rajya Sabha and there is a third connected with Lok Sabha as such, chamber, the third chamber is where unconnected with Rajya Sabha as such the Members of both Houses meet. which it is, because the Constitution contemplates that the Joint Sitting can be there, although there is no House of Now your announcement has created the People,—if that is the contempla­ difficulty—that the Lok Sabha is meet­ ing in the Central Hall with the Rajya tion,—then how can the Lok Sabha Sabha members added on to that, be­ meet today at 11 O’ clock as per your cause you said the Lok Sabha stands announcement? You made the an­ adjourned still tomorrow 11 A.M. and nouncement that the Lok Sabha will will stand adjourned sine die pfter the meet at 11 O’ clock today. My con­ joint sitting. You are the Speaker of tention is that it is the Lok Sabha the Lok Sabha. The Lok Sabha as per which is meeting here with the Mem­ anouncament is meeting here in the bers of the Rajya Sabha added on to Central Hall. A§ the Speaker of the it. It is the Lok Sabha which is now Lok Sabha you are presiding. The meeting as per your announcement. Members of Rajya Sabha have joined The Lok Sabha is meeting that way. it. You are calling it a Joint sitting. That is not the Joint Sitting which has This is not the correct contemplation. been contemplated. That is not the The Lok Sabha and the Joint sitting Joint Sitting summoned by he Presi­ cannot simultaneously together meet. dent. That Joint Sitting has not taken The Joint sitting has got to meet sepa­ place here. It is some concocted occur­ rately unconnected with the Lok rence that has not been contemplated in Sabha and Rajya Sabha. This is the the Constitution. Therefore thig sitting concept that I can spell out by reading is invalid. It is not what has been ,:on- Article 108(5), which says— templated in the Constitution as a Joint Sitting. It is only the Lok Sabha meeting as per your announce­ "A joint sitting may be held under ment with the Rajya Sabha Members this article and a Bill passed thereat, added on to it This is not a Joint notwithstanding that a dissolution of SitUng, and a Bill passed by this sit­ tKe House of the People ha® inter­ ting cannot be accepted as a Bill pa»- 19 Points vf Order MAY 16, 1978 Pointsof Order 20

[Shri C. M. Stephen] of any period during whieh the House referred to in sub-clause (c) aed by both the Houses of Parliament. of that clause is prorogued or nd- That is my submission. Thank you. joamed form ore than Jour consecu­ MR. :SP£AK£R: A number of points tive days” have been raised. Then clause (3) reads thus: An hon. Member came to the rostrum.

MR. SPEAKER: I &av« not called “ (3) Where the President has you please. I request you kindly to under clause ( 1) notified his Inten­ take your seat. tion of summoning the Houses to meet in a joint sitting, neither House Now, for understanding the Points shall proceed further with the Bill, of Order raised, it is necessary to quote but the President may at any time the relevant provisions of the Consti­ after the date of his notification tution as detailed in Art. 108 of the summon the Houses to meet in a Constitution. Article 108, to the joint sitting for the purpose speci­ extent it is relevant for the present fied in the notification and, if he does purpose reads as follows: — so, the Houses shall meet according­ ly.” ‘108(1) If after a Bill has been passed by one House and transmit­ ted to the other House— Clause (4) reads thus:

(a) the Bill is rejected by the “ (4) If at the joint sitting of the other House; or two Houses the Bill, with such amendments, if any, as are agreed (b) the Houses have finally to in joint sitting, is passed by a disagreed as to the amendments to majority of the total number of be made in the Bill; members of both Houses present and voting, it shall be deemed for the (c) more than six months elapse purposes of this Constitution to have from the date of the reception of been passed by both Houses: the Bill by the other House with­ out the Bill being passed by it, Provided that at a joint sitting— the President may, unless the Bill has lapsed by reason of a dissolu­ tion of the House of the People, (a) if the Bill, having been passed notify to the House by message. by one House, has not been passed by the other House with amend­ If they are sitting or by rrnbJic ments and returned to the House in notification if they are not sitting, which it originated, no amendment his intention to summon them to shall be proposed to the Bill other meet in a joint sitting for the purpose than such amendments (if any) as of deliberating and voting on the Bill: are made necessary by the delay in the passage of the Bill; ...... Provided that nothing in this (Underlining is by me). clause shall apply to a Money Bill;’ The Bill in question was passed by Then clause (2) reads thus: the Lok Sabha but when it went to the Rajya Sabha its consideration was re­ “(2) in reckoning any such period jected by the Rajya Sabha. Therefore, of six months as is referred to in in my opinion the Bill was rejected clause (1), no account shall be taken by the other House. Ppwts of Orfrr VAISAKHA 96, 1800(SAKA) Point* of Order 22

Now, QQ % A P # » P ^ deat Now, we shall come to the various s e n t the following message: objections raised by the hon’ble Mem­ bers. The first objection raised by Mr. Lakkappa and others is that when “WHEREAS at its sitting on the the two Houses are sitting there can­ 5th December, 1977, the Lok Sabha not be a Joint Sitting of the two passed the Banking Service Com­ Houses. This contention does not, in mission (Repeal) BUI, 1977, and my opinion, have any merit in it be­ transmitted the same to the Rajya cause Article 108 clause (3) specifically Sabha. says:

AND WHEREAS the Rajya Sabha “President may at any time after at its sitting on the 8th December, the date of his notification summon 1977 rejected the said Bill. the Houses to meet in a joint sitting, for the purpose specified in the noti­ NOW, THEREFORE, in exercise fication and, if he does so, the of the powers conferred by clause Houses shall meet accordingly.” (1) of article 108 of the Constitu­ AN HON. MEMBER: Where is that tion, I, Neelam Sanjiva Reddy, Pre­ summon? sident of India, hereby notify my intention to summon the Rajya Sabha and Lok Sabha to meet in a MR. SPEAKER: Summons have been, joint sitting for the purposes of issued to each one of the Members. deliberating and voting on the said Therefore, in my opinion, the joint Bill.” sitting of the two Houses has been validly summoned. The question This message, I am given to under­ whether any House is still sitting or stand, has been read out in both the not is totally irrelevant because the Houses. mandatory article is that the Presi­ dent can summon a joint sitting at any time unless before he expresses his- Thereafter on May 10, 1978 the intention, the House of the People President issued the following order. had been dissolved. That is the only limitation found in Article 108. SHRI B. SHANKARANAND: When did the President pass the order? The second question that was rais­ ed was that there were only summons, MR. SPEAKER: On May 10, 1978 the and there was no expression of inten­ President passed the following order: tion by the President as contemplated by sub-clause (3) of Article 108. This contention appears to have been., “ In exercise of the powers confer­ made on a mis-apprehension. I have red upon me by clause (3) of arti­ set out earlier that the President had cle 108 of the Constitution, I hereby also expressed his intention to sum­ summon the Rajya Sabha and Lok mon a joint sitting of the two Houses Sabha to meet in a joint sitting at and it is only thereafter that he has New Delhi on Tuesday, the 10th directed the summons lor the joint May, 1978 at 11 AM for the purpose of deliberating and voting on the sitting. Banking Service Commission (Re­ Mr. Shankar Ghose contended that peal) Bill, 1977.” the mandatory provision of the Arti­ cle has not been followed. From the In pursuance of this order of the Presi­ facts I have set out earlier, I am of dent, the Secretary has issued the the opinion that the mandatory pro­ necessary summons to all the Members vision of Article 108 has been strictly concerned. followed. The fact that the sum- Point* of Order MAY l«, 1978 Point* of Order 24

[Mr. Speaker] is invalid, the tame must be taken up ntons issued on this occasion differs before courts. in its wording from the summons issued in 1961 is not a relevant factor Mr. Stephen contended that as I adjourned the Lok Sabha yesterday at all. In fact, 1 am given to under­ stand that as the previous form of to meet to-day at 11 A.M. this sitting 'uxnmong was not properly worded, a must be considered to be a continua­ tion of the Lok Sabha itself. This new form was evolved. is an incorrect reading of my yester­ Another contention raised was that day’s order. In the order itself I after the expiry of six months—the made clear that the Lok Sabha will six months’ time is contemplated in meet here for the purpose of joint sub-clause (c) of Article 108(1) hav­ sitting and again his contention that ing not had expired, the President it is not a joint sitting does not ap­ has no right to summon the joint pear to be correct from the wording sitting. This again to my mind, ap­ of clause (4) of Article 108 which pears to be an untenable contention says: because Article 108(1) provides for three alternatives, namely:— “(4) If at the joint sitting of the two Houses ___”. (a) the Bill is rejected by one of the Houses, or This sitting is really a joint sitting of the two Houses. I have dealt with (b) the Houses having finally all the objections and none of the disagreed as to the amendments to objections has been accepted by me. be made in the Bill, or Therefore, the Bill is validly taken (c) more than six months have up for consideration. elapsed from the date of the recep­ The hon. Minister of Finance. tion of the Bill by the other House (Interruptions) without the Bill being passed by it.

The present case falls within sub­ 12.00 h rs . clause (a) of Article 108(1). That being so, the objection raised does MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Madhavan, I lot appear to be tenable. have not called you. Please resume your seat. I have dealt with the The second contention of Mr. points of order raised. No further Shankar Ghose is that the Rajya discussion. Please resume your seat. Sabha has not rejected the Bill. To (Interruptions) my mind, this contention has no merit at all. When it has refused to take SHRI K. K. MADHAVAN (Kerala): the Bill into consideration, the legal I have a right to speak. I have a effect is that it has rejected the BilL right to raise a point of order. How This contention, again, is not ac­ can you deny a Member his right? cepted. Mr. Bhupesh Gupta has contended MR. SPEAKER: You have not rais­ that the President has been wrongly ed any point of order. advised in summoning the joint (Interruptions) * * sitting and secondly that the Presi­ MR. SPEAKER: Do not record any­ dent’s order is invalid. This is not thing. Mr. Bhupesh Gupta, I have a matter for decision by me. This is dealt with your point of order I have for courts to decide. I cannot go into dealt with all the points that were it. There is a presumption of law raised. No further discussion can be that the order made is valid. If it there on that.

•Not recorded. Points of Order VAISAKHA 26, 1900 SAKA) ( Points of Order 26 25

SH R I VAYALAR RAVI (Chirayin- sitting of the Lok Sabha, it must sit kil): He wants to raise a new point there in the other hall. This is not of order he must be allowed to speak. the venue for the Lok Sabha to sit. 1 question the legality of this sitting. SHRI C. M. STEPHEN: On a point Having sat on the highest judicial of order. My point of order is...... body of the country. I am sure, you {Interruptions). will understand that the full implica­ MR. SPEAKER: He is raising a new tions of what we are called upon to point of order. do today will be disastrous. Not only (Interruptions). that. You are creating a paradise to the Constitution lawyers. One more SHRI C. M. STEPHEN; I do not point of order. I want to know raise a point of order unnecessarily, whether this Assembly or Assemb­ kindly hear me. lies, as the case may be, is or are (Interruptions). called upon to deliberate and con­ SHRI K. K. MADHAVAN: I am ceive and deliver a still born baby, sorry that the hon. Chair has not that is, a constitutionally still born allowed my point of order. It was bady. That is my point of order. a genuine point of order. 1 wanted to raise a point of order before the MR. SPEAKER: The point of order hon. Chair was about to give his rul­ raised b y Shri Madhavan is covered ing. That is why, I wanted to raise by m y order. it first. Unfortunately, it was not Shri Stephen. allowed. Without casting any asper­ S1IRI C. M. STEPHEN: Sir, I rise sion, with due respect to you, I would on a point of order. Under the rules like to say that I make a distinction governing joint sittings of Houses, at between a judge and a Speaker. From any joint sitting, the procedure of your experience as a Member, as a Presiding Officer___ (Interruptions). the House shall apply with such modifications and variations as the MR. SPEAKER: Please formulate Speakefl may consider necessary or yoor point of order. appropriate. So, the procedure of SHRI K. K. MADHAVAN: I am the House in the matter of passing a raising it. (Interruptions) Bill is to apply here. The passing of a Bill has got three stages. One is MR. SPEAKER: Please allow him. the introduction stage. The other is What is your point of order? the consideration stage. The last is SHRI K. K. MADHAVAN: My the stage of passing the Bill. What point of order is that this sitting, has now happened is, we are now because of the objections already proceeding straight to the considera­ raised by the foregoing speakers, of tion of the Bill without seeking leave the House or the Houses as the case of the House to introduce the Bill. may be, is ab initio void not only This is absolutely necessary under that, since the legality and the Con­ the rules. Under the Rules of Rajya stitutionality of the issue of summons Sabha, Rule 120 says: itself has been questioned, this is “ Where any of the following not a joint sitting at all. I presume motions under these rules in regard to say that we are sitting here just as to a Bill originating in the Council we sit in the Central Hall for taking is rejected by the Council, no fur­ tea. I differ from Mr. Stephen. It ther motion shall be made with re­ is not a sitting of the Lok Sabha ference to the Bill and such Bili where the Members of the Rajya shall be removed from the Register Sabha have been invited. We are of Bills pending in the Council:— not such loafers here. Therefore, this is neither a sitting of the Lok Sabha (i) That leave be granted to nor the Rtjya Sabha. If it is a introduce the Bill, 2J P tints of Order MAY 16, 1078 Points of Order 28 IShri C. M. Stephen] without formally introducing it, we will be violating the rules. There­ tii) that the Bill be referred to fore, my point of order is that leavn a Select Committee— must be sought for introduction of (iii) that the Bill be taken into the Bill. consideration” etc. In Rajya Sibha. the motion that the SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Sir, I Bill be taken into consideration was have heard your ruling, I am no rejected. Therefore, under this rule, questioning it. With regard to the joint the Bill was taken off the Register of sitting, you have given the ruling. Bills as far as Rajya Sabha is concern- Being a loyal parliamentarian, the ed. Therefore, in Rajya Sabha, there is matter rests there. I may disagree, no Bill pending and the Bill was not but it is settled. placed on the Table of Rajya Sabha. As far as Lok Sabha is concerned, My point of order now relates Vo Lok Sabha passed the Bill. After the motion of Mr. H- M. Patel. Sir. that, it went to Rajya Sabha. Lok we have been asked by his motion to Sabha has ceased to be in seizing of repeal, inter alia, a particular measure, namely. Banking Servicr the Bill. Commission Ordinance of September There is a definition as to what are 1977. Clause 5 of the Bill says this. the Bills pending before the House. Is it proper, in order, for the hon. A Bill pending before the House shall Minister to call upon the Parliament, include (i) a Bill introduced in the either House or joint sitting, to re­ House, (ii) a Bill transmitted to peal something, a law or an ordinance the Council and returned by the which does not exist? In this con­ Council with amendment, (iii) a nection, I beg to invite your attention Bill originating in the council and to Article 123 which relates to the transmitted to the House and (iv) a power of the President to issue Ordin­ Bill returned by the President with ances. Clause (2) of that Articlo says; a message under Article 111 of the Constitution. This does not come under any of these. This means that “ (2) An Ordinance promulgated the Bill is neither in Rajya Sahha nov under this article shall have same force and effect as an Act of Par­ in Lok Sabha. liament. but every such Ordinance— Now the House has assembled. The question is, how are we to come in (a) shall be laid before both seizing of the Bill? Is it enough that Houses of Parliament and shall you place it on the Table of 4he cease to operate at the expira House? My humble submission is. lion of six weeks from the reas the rules which are to govern—this sembly of Parliament), or, if joint sitting should be the same as before the expiration of that the rules governing the House. The period resolutions disapproving it Bill has got to be introduced. Leave are passed by both Houses, upon has got to be sought for it. Merely the passing of the second of those laying it on the Table will not bring resolutions: and it under the cognizance ol the House. This gives us a valuable opportu­ (b) may be withdrawn at any nity. If we have to raise any ques time by the President.” tion with respect to constitutional validity or jurisdiction, it is at the stage of introduction that we can Now, Sir, my point here is that this raise it. This opportunity is being Ordinance was laid in the Lok Sabha denied to us. Therefore, if we pro­ in the last Session of the last year, I ceed to the consideration of the Bill think in the beginning of October. A 29 Points of Order VAISAKHA 26, 1900 SAKA ( ) Point* of Order 30

Bill was passed to give effect to this in this House. Otherwise, that conten­ Ordinance. The Bill as passed came tion will have no basis. to Rajya Sabha. The Rajya Sabha rejected it, or whatever you call it, on So far as Article 108 is concerned, the 8th of December. Counting from it is made clear by clause (1) of Arti­ the first day, the day on which the cle 108 that the President may summon Ordinance was laid in the Lok Sabha, a joint sitting for the purpose of de­ six weeks passed and it expired. This liberating and voting. In the Consti­ Ordinance was disapproved in our tution. 3 different stages are contemp­ House. Therefore, Sir. under Article lated viz. ( 1) introduction (2) consi­ ] 23. the so-called Ordinance of Septem­ deration or deliberation and (3) vot­ ber 1977 which was sought to be given ing. In all the bills which do not come legal status by an Act of Parliament within Article 108, these 3 stages have has lapsed. Yet, we are. in this Bill to be gone through but in the case of a that has been given to us, asked to bill which comes up for consideration entertain this particular clause 5, which under Article 108, only two stages are says, The Banking Service Commission provided for viz. deliberating and vot­ (Repeal) Ordinance is hereby repealed.’ ing. The introduction part is not there. What you are repealing? You repeal This is so for obvious reasons, because something which exists either as an the very bill which has been introduc­ ordinance or us a law, either as an Act ed, which was under the consideration of Parliament or as an Ordinance. But of the Lok Sabha and thereafter under the Ordinance has already lapsed under the consideration of the Rajya Sabha, Article 123. I, therefore, say that this is before this House. It is not at all a particular Bill is illegal and invalid and new bill that is being introduced. This it has called upon the Parliament, all is made clear by two provisos to clausc Members are called upon, to entertain (4) of Article 108 which places limita­ a provision in the clause which is tions on the right to move amendments. patently unconstitutional and illegal. If this is a new Bill, then the Members Therefore, I say, you kindly declare this would have had full right to move particular Bill illegal, invalid, improper amendments. Such a right is not avail­ and not liable to be considered by the able under Article 108. That being so, I two Houses oi Parliament. And I hope reject the contention of Mr. Stephens the Government will surely show the that there should be an introduction necessary respect to the Constitution stage. and to the Rule of Law. They are asking us to entertain an illegal provi­ Now coming to Mr. Bhupesh Guptn’s sion of the law. This is dismantling of contention that the Ordinance which the Emergency and the restoration of was passed on 19th September, 1977 is the rule of law. no more in force and, therefore, the present attempt to pass the Bill is an exercise in futility, this contention MR. SPEAKER: Two points of order again, does not appear to me to be cor* have again been raised: one by Mr. rect. The Ordinance was issued on the Stephen and another by Mr. Bhupesh 1.0th September 1977, as mentioned Gupta. So far as Mr. Stephen’s point earlier. Article 123 of the Constitu­ of order is concerned, his contention is tion provides as to what should be done lhat the Bill before the House, the Bill with reference to Ordinances issued by which has been placed on the Table of the President. Article 123(1) says— the House, must first be sought to be and I quote: introduced in the House. It is only thereafter that it can be taken into con­ ‘‘If at any time, except when both sideration if the House permits, allows Houses of Parliament are in session and approves the introduction stage. His the President is satisfied that cir­ Contention appears to be that this is a cumstances exist which render it new measure which has been introduced necessary for him to take immediate 31 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 32 (Repeal) Bill [Mr. Speaker] This Bill was considered and pass­ ed by Lok Sabha on 5th December, action, he may promulgate such Or­ 1977. Rajya Sabha, however, did not dinances as the circumstances ap­ favour this Bill and rejected the Bill pear to him to require.” on 8th December, 1977. Clause (2) of this Article is impor­ tant. It provides—and I quote: Government are firmly of the view “An Ordinance promulgated under that a system of recruitment of per­ this article shall have the same force sonnel in public sector banks based and effect as an Act of Parliament on the concept of a single centralis but every such Ordinance— ed recruitment agency will make the recruitment process inefficient, un­ (a) shall be laid before both wieldy and cumbersome, with serious Houses of Parliament and shall consequences for the public sector cease to operate at the expiration banks. It is also our view that such of six weeks from the reassembly a system would seriously affect fair of Parliament, or, if before the and balanced representation of rural expiration of that period resolu­ areas, particularly of persons belong­ tions disapproving it are passed ing to the more vulnerable sections ol by both Houses, upon the passing our society, for employment in the of the second of those resolutions; banking industry.

The Ordinance was placed in the Lok It has also to be borne in mind Sabha on 18th November 1977, i.e. that the bulk of the officers are drawn within six weeks of the meeting of the by selection from amongst thp Lok Sabha. Therefore, it continues to ranks of clerks. It is, therefore, most be valid till a resolution as contemp­ essential that the process of selection lated under clause ( 2) of Article 123 is of clerks right from the beginning is passed. No such resolution has been such that it enables us to draw into passed; and, therefore, the Bill befors the banking industry persons who the House is in order; and does not offer promise as officers of the future. violate Article 123 of the Constitution. To ensure that they discharge their so­ cial and economic functions effective­ ly, moreover, we have to ensure that all regions and all language groups in 12.25 hrs. the country have the opportunity to BANKING SERVICE COMMISSION be recruited in the banks. Having (REPEAL) BILL regard to the vast extension of bran­ ches in the ruraT areas—there are to­ THE MINISTER OF FINANCE day something like 11,000 rural bran­ (SHRI H. M. PATEL): I bee to move: ches and their number is growing— we have to take the utmost care to ‘That the Bill to repeal the Bank­ see that our rural branches are staff­ ing Service Commission Act, 1975, ed by clerks and officers who are pro­ as pafsed by Lok Sabha and rejected ficient in the language of the area they by Jlajya Sabha, be taken into are working in. A!!* this can only be consideration for the purpose of ensured if the recruitment arrange­ deliberating on the Bill.” ments are fully decentralised.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Banking Ser­ vice Commission (Repeal) Bill, 1977 It was for this reason that Govern­ is before this Joint Sitting of both ment decided to abolish the Banking the Houses of Parliament for consi­ Service Commission by seeking to deration’ . repeal the Banking Service Commis­ Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 34 (Repeal) Bill

sion Act, 1975. The tw 0 Houses of bank credit is made available to the Parliament having disagreed with hitherto neglected sections of the each other in this matter, the Govern­ population, particularly to agricultu­ ment, therefore, have brought the rists, small traders small artisans etc. Banking Service Commission (Repeal) During the past 14 months, we have Bill before this Joint Sitting of the opened more branches than in any iwo Houses for consideration and corresponding period before. There final decision in this matter. are very few unbanked areas now left in the country.

At the very outset, I wish t0 point out that annual recuritment in the banking sector is of the order of 15,000 Jt goes without saying that the to 20,000 for clerks and 1,500 to 2,000 social and economic objectives of for officers. It is further estimated nationalisation of banking cannot be that these requirements may increase achieved without the effective co-ope- substantially in the years to come. ration of bank staff at all levels. The In another five years’ time, the num­ attitudes and approach of the bank ber of clerical recuritment required staff has to undergo a change if w 6 every year may be around 40,000. It are to realise our objectives. The is hardly possible for a centralised House will agree with me that our machinery to cope with the task of system of recruitment must be consis­ recuritment on such a large scale. tent with the requirements of the There is also no assurance that all situation. Unless the recruitment sys­ the available vacancies will be filled tem is properly designed, we shall time to meet the manpower require­ not be able to go forward in a sys­ ments of the banking industry. I nr.ay tematic fashion. It must be recognised also add that from the very begin­ that we can hardly expect a central ning the Reserva Bank of India had recruitment system to pick up an ade­ .strong reservations on the establish­ quate number of people from rural ment of such a Commission for these areas, particularly from socially back­ very reasons. ward classes for employment in banks. It is our firm conviction that only a decentralised system will be able to do so. If we set up a cen­ While the Bill was under discussion tralised system, it will only result tn in Lok Sabha, some hon. Members a bureaucratic approach and most of from the Opposition had alleged that the right candidates from different this Bill is a prelude to de-nationali­ regions and particularly from rural sation of banking. This. I am afraid, areas will find it difficult to find was a wholly mischievous suggestion. placement through such a bureaucra­ I had then stated in the Lak Sabha, tic system. I think it is necessary ;ind I wish to reiterate again, that to recognise that our UPSC recruits there is no truth whatsoever in this for a number of services and that allegation. This Government has no their recruitment is confined to a very intention to So back on the nationali­ limited circle of people. In fact, they sation of 14 banks. We are commit­ will be found to be coming in the ted t0 the social and economic objec- main from a limited number of edu­ tive8 for which banks were national­ cational institutions. This is some­ ised and we are going forward in ful­ thing which we cannot possibly put filling these objectives. To this end, up with so, far as the banking sector we are making vigorous effortg to is concerned. We also feel that if ensure that banks penetrate into all banking is genuinely to serve the remote and rural areas in the country, diversified needs of the various pa:'U and that an increasing proportion of of the country, Dersons from all re' 35 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 36 (Repeal) Bill IShri H. M. Patel] Recruitment will thus be done at these Centres, namely, Calcutta, Mad­ gions and language areas of the coun­ ras, Bangalore, Delhi and Bombay, It try should get an effective opportuni­ is also the intention to establish sub^ ty to secure employment in the bank­ centres to facilitate recruitment. For ing sector. Here again, I am clear achieving certain minimum uniformity in ir.y mind that unless We have a in recruitment, common guidelines decentralised system for recruitment, will be issued to these Boards by the this objective will not be achieved. Government in consultation with the Reserve Bank of India. In fact, in A legitimate query may be raised the State Bank of India and the Re­ as to the alternative recruitment pro­ serve Bank of India, such Recruit­ cedure we have in mind. A Commit­ ment Boards are today functioning tee of Bankers set up by the Govern­ and functioning most efficiently. ment to make recommendations in this regard has suggested a scheme under which groups of banks with What we have in mind is an alter­ headquarters in a region will comc native system of recruitment in banks together and set up a common rec­ similar to the system of recruitment ruitment machinery to cater to their by Railway Service Commissions. Gov­ requirements. This scheme provides ernment do not consider it necessary t'» a judicious combination of the bene­ have statutory powers to implement fits of common recruitment and this alternative system of recruitmenl. advantages flowing from decentrali­ The Railway Service Commissions sation. It is proposed to have seven are not statutory bodies. Even in Groups of Banks in this manner, set­ Government, recruitment to Class III ting up in the process seven Recruit­ posts is done by the Staff Selection ment Boards. The groupings as at Commission which is not a statutory present envisaged are: body. No one has accused that these bodies are not impartial in their selec­ tion methods and we have every hope Eastern Group: United Commer­ that the seven Recruitment Boards *0 cial Bank and United Bank of India. be constituted for the banking sector will perform their tasks objectively Southern Group (Madras); Indian and impartially. We feel that the pro­ Bank and Indian Overseas Bank. posed system of Recruitment Boards serves the basic objectives of recruit­ Southern Group (Bangalore): ing personnel for our banks in a fair Syndicate Bank and Canara Bank. and impartial manner, while giving a reasonable opportunity to the candida­ tes from all regions. Northern and Central Group: Punjab National Bank and Allaha­ We are convinced that this system is bad Bank. preferable to the revival of the Bank­ ing Service Commission, which apart Western Group-I: Bank of India, from interfering with the autonomy, Dena Bank a n d Central Bank of flexibility and the working ol the pub­ India. lic sector banks, will make the recruit­ ment to satisfy the legitimate require­ Western Group-II; Bank of ments and language requirements. Baroda, Union Bank of India and Bank of Maharashtra. During discussions in Rajya Sabh;<, some Opposition MPs had even alleged State Bank Group: State Bank that the system of Recruitment ?nd its associate banks. Boards has been devised to allow Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 38 (Repeal) Bill b anks to extend patronage to the sup­ enable recruitment at the local level of porters of the Ruling Party. Consider­ persons who know the local language ing that before we issued an Ordinance and conditions and are thus able truly dispensing with the Banking Service to assist in the provision of credit to Commission, all that had been done the common-man. was the appointment of a Chairman of the Commission, and no thinking had been done as to how the Commission Sir, I hope, the detailed analysis was to be organised and broadly how I have attempted in highlighting the it should function so as to satisfy the points in favour of the proposed Re­ essential requirements of a banking cruitment Boards will convince the system, with the majority of its bran­ Hon. Members present here today ches spread out in the vast rural areas that this mehod is preferable in every of the country. It is obvious that the respect to the over-centralised system charge of patronage against the pre­ envisaged in the creation of Banking sent Government is just plain malice Service Commission. We are convinc­ and totally unfounded. We are fully ed that given the magnitude of the conscious of the need to ensure that task of recruitment it was expected to in a major public enterprise like bank­ handle, the Commission would not ing which occupies a vital role in our have been able to perform its functions econnomy, recruitment should not with reasonable efficiency and speed. merely be objective and impartial but Our decision to dissolve the Commis­ it should also appear to be so. That sion is thus the only appropriate is why it is proposed that recruitment course and is wholly in public interest. should be by independent Recruit­ ment Boards, in the banks organised I now commend the Bill lor adop­ into groups for administrative con­ tion by this Joint Sitting of both venience and to secure economies. The Houses of Parliament. Chairman of the proposed Recruit­ ment Boards will be eminent persons and Members will be those having '.he MR. SPEAKER: Motion moved: requisite experience in banking, ac­ countancy, management and so o p . The Board will be independent of thc- “That the Bill to repeal the Bank­ management of the banks in their day ing Service Commission Act. 1975, as to-day recruitment work, thus ensur­ passed by Lok Sabha and rejected in g that no nepotism or malpractice.- by Rajya Sabha. be taken into con­ occur. It is our considered judgement sideration for the purpose of deli­ ihat this decentralised system is best berating on the Bill.” suited to the needs of the banking in­ dustry and its expansion in rural areas. It will be as stem which permits Before I call the next speaker jet mir mention to you that at the meeting of candidates to select a bank tor whicn they wish to work instead of belong­ the Leaders it was decided that this Bill be allotted six hours on the w hole- in g to a depersonalised and over-cen­ four hours for the purpose of prelim' tralised system which can only result nary discussion and two hours for in officious bureaucracy. And white the rest. Out of this, time has been this will be achieved, the really talen­ allotted like this: Janata—15« minu­ ted will be able to find adequate op­ portunities for promotion to higher tes including the speech of the Financ ? Minister; Congress (I).—43 minutes; appointments on an all India basis. The proposed system will also be less Congress—35 minutes; CPI(M)»—I0 minutes; AIADMK—8 minutes; CPI & costly because it will not require any minutes and the rest will be given some elaborate secretariat to look after the time. Now, I request Mr. Kamlapati administrative task of recruitment. Above all. it is a system which will Tripathi to speak. 39 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 40 (Repeal) Bill •ft pwnfii famil (grrt : iim r , «rvft yftnr_ % * | ^ m*ror *f$tw, # w*rpt * * w wmi« ?rtnr 4Rt* |, ^h1 *rc # 59 wnrr «nc $ % ft*rr ?*r ?rr*r% im r fin: f 1 fcrr ^i^tt jfrfroifcftstattfirarfcT ^ftnr *f It«l ^ Pr s*r t? r o ^ — srgr jtpt >pt mn®r *ft f r srrinr «t fafte t o ’ £ 1 ?ftr Tt$?r % t o t aft % CT «Pt ilf, ’Sr*I spTVf % fan *fi!T-Utn*l f^T | 9 5ft»r tps^wttt ^St -tiwii vt ’Rftvrt *nr finr 1975 if tot §«rr tft? *ffaw ^ *r, ftf>r Mt r n ^ h r r ^ ?w 1 *nft»PT f a ? ?^T I E*T% JTTSJffl rr^r % if «fr 1 w ifs ^ *r !W 'ft«rr*fh'!nr3r>ft^ftFrt,|PT% P r t » m * f l r ^it b i >p ?i f o are f o r <1^ apt *mr% w f | f f , y g «fr? ?t »R m rK > 3TI^ I HTflM*T % STK sftsp *WT M^Kt ^t, sfty % TOWrfWf ft, *f frtfhr fasr ^nr ferT »nn »ftr jt»tt vh? & TivrftmT pttPrt arrsft ^ ’T fm Pwrr 1 g% ns^r *nrr *f ift ?n*rffT STift It, 5*fNr FT #afff 5Sf ^*>r« % f%n_ ^r fr*n »m 1 w r WSanTapf TT Vt ^?TT t , ^ftw f W t(ft #BT mTm vt 1 rm r »mn % f^ rrr % »r»w s»r %, wte-afrt TO>wfiwt «pt t(ft fW R > *tt fimr «rrsrr nnnp: fen «ftr w ^ k J, farrot aft snrrr ?M »r n y ?fT >hit 1 i » r t o w ■3^r% f, tv* V5*rr«r ^t jftaRmr vt 'rra- vr Rtjh 1 w t o t 3ft *rrn flrarr^ an jram ft*rr an^ 1 m^hnFTW 3Jp*t frttnr * 4V*h §wt $ «r?r $»tt ?t r?r «tt f*p fai^T ist ^»n % w?*r forr 1 ff jnmrr wf^fiTT ■SRtvr tt vrr j«rr *rr, rr% Hr srr snmr tiwm n i »ft 1 *(ft TO »P«Tfn % ?TRT 5TT1T ^T5T ^ 3Rr tr« t *rvT gTqrnt t t snj^ w*r * *rta>nsfr m m iff jtt T«fnr- & % T*rc?f trpfhFfn pr ^fr J*fr ?fr Tfir 1 20-22 *rr 24 qf^nr, fin% ar%d Wt Jl? ?Wrr f% ?TPPTT ‘3W PrepT jrnff J r J ^ v t «{aft *ft, » j t t o » wf-*nrf vr^ft iftt 7»t firar apt ?ft f?«ftrr *r 1 wfa% to tov fhwr Ppit ann- ftw «fT glr fnftw Rt ar^r *ft t fv faRft JTTTT % TP^T ^ X* ’T^rffT «pt nftAirr vftwt tt nf wtr wnr ^T*ff ?t fHTPT aPT TTSjr % f^ r m Sf, =*nr *rftj^TR ^ m rr »m 1 'H'f fsrr *f *firm an^ 1 ? tt^ m r ,, Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 42 (Repeal) Bill tnsjfrraw ipr ^ ^ ^ 4 d i sfirar «p«n*i'i vt V Fm fir finnr Ir ^ * t «rTRTT * ^ f t ? ^ jt ?rftvr fkv^nrr fannr ftwrw $, t$r f*rhr aft Art flff *n »r faRt feft %rtr fsntfewr qr sqft lit to* $ i w »manr % % w f t ? > \ f t K ^ wtm vV »rrff t firaraY, 3vta-sre *r % *rsrf, g»*fr aft ^ ftrsnrt % 5® whmlff ^nr, W h it, TO for f^TTT- f^PT% ?TTT KtftWt *FT VTlrfsrW |t 'ft *m m arft i m M t H^i'ii fsiH •flRmi *pt *fflr SV) vr ft? n % ktwpt St 5* fernff *t wrrwr f^JiT »nn «rr 1 m^r art fw^ ^ wgwir fnfiF ** tr > ft*rf?r 'ftrtn nxrr Hr. argr rfr \* ?r ^ fv «nr «pt fsrtk m , * t j * *r^t ^ erftPFR t ■, W f f t * ■3«W1 + '*»W l ST^ *t JTSfT % *TT«r ZH 5»T fspr "FT *T> f*rar Tjjt ^ i i^ft fwrPi Sf ?re s i w i . P t t w t 1 s m m \ ft f a w m rf «Pt u ra fr =rrr " 5 ^ — 3TT J17T TT 9>R ^T STRTT fsPTT, *TtT *PT •PT^H ^ T T wrr— ?r P T % f»rfe»r *pt 4f * r s jp t p - «»> ^ Pnnfr *r vhnfm ?ff‘ f^r«A v # f T T T , 5!T 5(ar f f JTST «H9T% % f^TT qrt ^ Pp^ft 3RTT W ¥ftfCT*T UT TWTR ^ g W , ? f t VFifelpT n^npsft ITPT «n^ i 4'ftn ^rf*rir **rm* w t » r f 1 ^»r ?r*r*T if vfr 3»m imp: *n trt g^rr ’frtr r^r v*fhnr vrnn «ph i STfT ir VFTR^ nywfirfj %«2T TW ^ Vt ftr jfHtW «5#r ^rf «fr ?ftT m vrrr |nnr % ?l«r ^ 3ft R^iJSd fT, tpff ^FTT ^rfgsFT7 frt?TT «rr w t ?TPr "sr^ pr Tt ?*fT % trtr 3^t% stRT’tmvT % sm ir ssrfwn- TOfir v f t qft r *rr *rf5rr 4>*fi»Mi *rr ? t T ^ t %, ft I pi I f f . # T*TW7t mvRPF Jfpt +*wmhi s>r?r ^ i trfvnr *Tffew *rfinr im sRfT «rr M i r a f^ t ®t Rp *t qfewr * r n p i r % *r% ftrfi^r t t *ftr ?prt* Prn; ?ri^rw v*ft»Rr 11 q> '^i q tN v T*m vrf TPpt% »pt vtf*nrr «rr xflr f a p r % *r r *rr sr ?f, ^ srrr wff ?i?fr P. vfa fr ^ - M«ifagn^ jr«r I ctttt s»r «?rr t, *t»tt sfrrar **r % »nft irrm 1^ i * i jpsjff 8r *r r i|P T *rr»r f*rr ir r * r f w r ?f i w ^ t »tt»? ^5- iftm *?frr |f'*flwi'*i ? 1 ilk g?r% sra ar^rt » ^Pft wwfinii t p f f f*u*rr '•i id i i ?fr > rfw w *tf% »r ? agencies of different banks in different time to constitute this Commission. areas would certainly be much more But even after the constitution of the in the interest of the banks and the Commission, the Commission had no! country. functioned at all, not even for a single day. They have not recruited anybody MR. SPEAKER: You may continue and this is a mere imagination on Ihe your speech after lunch. part of the hon. Leader of the Opposi­ tion in Rajya Sabha that if this Bill 13. hrs. is repealed, the recruitment policy would suffer and all the banks would The Houses of Parliament in joint go back in the lap of the monopoly sitting adjourned for lunch till Four­ Houses. I need not tell you. Sir, ; ow teen of the Clock. favourite the monopoly Houses were of the party of the hon. Leader of the 14.00 hrs. Opposition in Rajya Sabha during the The Houses of Parliament in joint period th?y were in Government sitting re.assembled after Lunch at During the period of last four or flvc- Fourteen of the clock. ytars, the size of the various mono­ poly Houses has doubled or trebled; in [Mr. Deputy -Speaker in the Chair]. some eases, the growth of the monopo­ ly Houses was more than ten times. BANKING SERVICE COMMISSION This is not the occasion for me to go (REPEAL) BILL—Contd. iv.Io all these details and tell you the facts and figures, but it would be a MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. j'utile attempt on the part of the Leader Morarka to resume his speech. of the Opposition in Rujya Sabha to SHRI R. R. MORARKA: Just be­ pretend that they are averse mid fore we adjourned for lunch I was ullerqic to the monopoly Houses. In saying that the proposed decentralised fact they have done everything possi­ recruiting Boards could serve the ble to strengthen, build up and en­ needs of the rural areas more effec­ courage these monopoly Houses...... tively and more purposefully. During (Interruptions) They say that I am the year 1977, you would be interest­ a symbol of the monopoly Houses. . ed to know, the commercial banks (Interruptions). opened, 3,348 Branches, the high- 45 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 46 (Repeal) Bill cs-t number in any one year and of is concerned, each mill is allowed to these, 2,261 branches or about 66.3 have its own recruitment. per cent are in the rural centres. Not only this, the government have de­ Similarly, the Coal India is* again cided that by the end of June 1978 no a big corporation employing lakhs of people and dealing in hundreds of community development block should crores of rupees and yet it has not remain unbanked. That is, banking got a centralised recruitment policy. offices should be opened in each and every community development Then we have the steel plants. They deal in thousands of crores of rupees block. At the end of December 1976, and they have a very large number there were 700 such blocks which did of people, both officers, junior officers, not have any banking facilities. Now, clerks and labourers. And yet they the number is reduced to only 250 do not have any centralised recruit­ and it is expected that by the end ment policy. In view of this I do of June 1976 there would be no com­ not see any reason why we should munity development block left with­ have a centralised one recruitment out banking facilities. Commission for the nationalised Besides this, there are 48 Regional banks alone. Rural Banks spread over 16 States I have been hearing the hon. mem­ and covering 87 districts to provide bers today. I also went through the credit to the weaker sections in the debates in the Rajya Sabha on De­ rural sector. At the end of January cember, 8th, I could not find a single 1978 they had opened 1218 branches, argument advanced by any hon. mobilising 32.9 crores of rupees as member against this repeal Bill. My deposits and disbursed Rs. 46.14 crores friend Shri Bhupesh Gupta who took as credit. In view of this rural bias, part in the debate at that time, all it. is very essential that we havp the that he said was, the recruitment po­ recruitment policies which would licy should be such as would give yorve particularly the rural areas. chance to the weaker sections, to everybody and that it should be ra­ At the time of nationalisation it tional, it should be objective, and was envisaged that all these banks it should be impartial. I fully agree must keep their individuality. That with him. The proposal moved by was the reason why all the 14 banks the Finance Minister would definitely were allowed to remain as individual ensure all that and this present Act units and they were not merged into which has a Central Recruitment one corporation like the LIC or the Agency would go against it. General Insurance Corporation. The idea was that they must have their I want to make one suggestion to individuality and there must be a the hon. Finance Minister. Even if healthy competition both in customer these constitutes even Boards recruit­ scrvice as well as deposits mobilisa­ ing in different areas, at the end of tion. the year, the reports of these Boards must come before the Parliament. Re­ Apart from this, I would like to ports must be placed before each knew whether there is any other pub­ House of Parliament so that hon. lic sector corporation which has set members may have a chance to exa­ up a centralised recruiting agency. mine them and see that the recruit­ We have, for example, the National ment policy is not biased towards any Textile Corporation. It has got 105 particular section or community. It textile mills spread all over the is impartial and is carried on as per country, but it has not got a central­ the desire of the sovereign House. ised recruitment policy. It has lakhs of employees and it deals with crores I felt a little concerned to hear of rupees, still so far as rectuitment the hon. Finance Minister about the 47 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 48 (Repeal) Bill [Shri R. R. Morarka] SHRI T. A. PAI (Udipi): Mr. De­ puty Speaker, Sir, we have listened workload of this one Commission to the Finance Minister and we have which is existing now. According to listened to members of tfie Janata him at presenf 20,000 clerks are rec­ Party as well as the Opposition, on ruited every year and about 4,000 to this very unnecessarily controversial 5,000 junior officers are recruited subject. I think partly the Finance Mi­ every year and he further says that nister has been responsible for it. in due course after about five years There are half-truths in whatever ho this number would increase to 40,000 said. We know that if only the Fin­ clerks annually. This certainly is a ance Minister had taken the rest of very heavy workload for any single us into confidence we could have cer­ commission. I do not think even the tainly brought forward suggestions Union Public Service Commission rec­ which might have achieved the pur­ ruits as many as 40,000 clerks or pose very much better. But the sug­ officers every year. That is another gestion to have a Public Service Com­ justification why there should not be mission for the banks was not part one single recruiting agency, but it of Bank Nationalisation certainly. It should be decentralised and there was a recommendation of the Bank­ should be six or seven recruitment ing Commission presided over by Mr. boards as envisaged by the Finance Saraiya. This Commission had been Minister. appointed by Mr. Morarji Desai. as the Finance Minister. Their recom­ mendations came very much later Something has been said about the than Bank Nationalisation. objectives at the time of nationalisa­ tion. The main objective why the Banks were nationalised was that I would not consider that the me ­ these banks were not serving the thod of recruitment would, under any needs of the weaker sections, needs circumstances, mean an attempt to of the agriculturists, needs of the denationalisation. But if you agree? rural areas and more so, credit was that the purpose of nationalisation has monopolised by the monopoly Houses. to be fulfilled, we may have to think The purpose was not achieved to the as to what is meant by the nationali­ extent that we wanted. It was achiev­ sation of the banking system. When ed to a very little extent during the nationalisation of banks took placc regime of the previous Government. it is not that the deposits of banks But now with the special efforts, with were nationalised. The people who the special steps that have been taken had deposited money had the right I am sure the real objective and the to withdraw the money at any time real purpose of the nationalisation and shift it from the banking sys­ would be fully achieved. But so far tem. It was in fact the nationlisation as recruitment policy is concerned, of the banking apparatus, it was in the only thing that was envisaged at fact nationalisation of men and wo­ the time of nationalisation was that men working in the banks. And there­ there should be no centralisation, fore in an industry where highly there should be no bias in favour of personalised service is a must, what anybody. Everybody should get fair type of people are to be recruited and proper chance. I think the sche­ has to be learnt more from experience me which is propounded by the hon. than merely based on academic quali­ Finance Minister viz., of having seven fications. I have not yet found even recruitment boards dispersed all over from my personal experience the country to meet the special need'’ whether matriculates are less of these areas in different regions qualified to be good ban­ would serve that purpose. kers than graduates or that those 49 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 50 (Repeal) Bill who secured 60 per cent marks are rural branches. Because of the diffe­ better than those who secured 45 per rentials in salaries, you cannot go on cent marks. expanding the banks by opening branches. What you have said is Very often in this country, as the true that a rural bank today makes number of people who apply for jobs a loss o f Rs. 2.0 lakhs or Rs. 3.0 lakhs are far too many we want to have for a period of two or three years some kind of—escapism by prescrib­ before it pays itself and the banking ing 60 per cent marks, graduation and business will come to a standstill so on. If every graduate could be soon. So, what type of men have to absorbed in the banking system, it be recruited is not known? In the would be all right. But here you are rural areas, people come from fami­ unnecessarily making people to go up lies who were getting education for to graduation, to be frustrated later the first time, th e boys w h o had learnt on. The attitude of people has to in schools where there were no faci­ change in the thousands of tasks that lities for laboratories and libraries the banking system is expected to be and how do you expect them to com­ entrusted with. Banking system can pete along with others who come from be a powerful instrument to bring the urban areas? I am convinced if about socio economic changes in the they are to serve the rural people you country, but what type of banking would have to recruit from the rural and what type of bankers? In fact people themselves and you will have the difficulty of the Government was to give representation to everybody. to change the attitudes of those who This Act has at least one virtue that are already in the banks. At the it reserves a certain number of posts time of nationalisation we talked a for the Scheduled Castes and Sche­ great deal of security being not very duled Tribes. Now, you want to have important but the purpose being administrative orders to ensure this. served. But what we find is that Does it happen? I know in the Rail­ even today the banks demand a secu­ ways this quota has been fulfilled by rity and the purpose does not become taking the number of sweepers and very important. scavengers also and I had to order that “as long as other communities I would like to ask a question: If arc not prepared to do that job, this « man with a torn shirt goes to a figure wil] not be taken for filling up branch of a bank today with a per­ the quota,” and similarly you might fectly good case for finance, would he have reserved all the positions of be even looked at by the bank clerk posts in the bank offices for the Sche­ leave alone the Bank Manager? If a duled Castes and Scheduled Tribes man goes in a Mercedes Benz I am and certainly in a way for bringing quite sure, even if he is a bankrupt, them up. We are still fooling our­ he is likely to be invited for a cup of selves w ith executive orders saying tea and perhaps he might be able to that we want to fulfil the aspirations secure his loan. Now how are you of the weaker sections of the people going to change this attitude? I am but it does not mention or propose convinced about this. Regarding what what kind of recruitment you are go­ type of recruitment you have to make, ing to make and for what purpose you should have consulted the bank you are going to make the recruit­ managers and the employees’ unions, ment. These are the questions which because, at the time when nationalisa­ you will have to think about very tion took place all the employee? serioi^ly. It is not merely deciding unions had given you the maximum to do away with it just by an Ordi­ support and they were capable of nance which should not have been giving you all the assistance to ex­ done. It is entirely known to all that tend your area of operation into the you were much in hurry to go ahead 51 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 52 (Repeal) Bill [Shri T. A. Pai] longer Regional Banks. They operate al] over the country and you have without thinking. Why did you not Regional Boards set up in the Indian have the consultation with the Bank Bank and the Indian Overseas Bank. Management? Why did you not learn from their experience? Is it because you occupy the position, you know Now I would like to know what everything about it? Why don’t you they would do to recruit the staff in consult the employees who have spent UP, Orissa or Bihar? Which Board their life-time in banking to find out will assist in recruiting the staff? how things could be improved? Well, Are they to go about advertising? as long as this attitude does not come Now, look at the conditions in this into our system, I do not accept that country. 1 know a bank advertised banking system today could make for 2000 vacancies. It received 2} lakh much head way. Ever since Bank applications. I want to know which Nationalisation took place, I think Commission and who can sort out the, Bank Chairmen have become these 2000 applications being the best almost head clerks.” They have out of those 2>j lakh applications. not applied their mind as to what the Why? Because the people are anxi­ banking can do in this country. Un­ ous to go to Banking service, because fortunately, when the Boards were the starting salaries are better than constituted recently, unlike in the they are elsewhere and in fact the past, did the Finance Minister look scales that you have here, in the into it and see whether some active villages you distort every other pat­ office-bearers of the Janata Party tern and everybody is willing to look were not put on the Board of some of for a job in banks, I am sure the the Banks? You cannot deny that banking service cannot fulfil the hopes charge that the banks are likely to and aspirations of everyone and apart be used for party purposes. If you from that you will have to give them have found fault with the nationalised proper training. I am yet to be con­ banks of interference of one or two vinced when I thought of a banker, individuals well, I am afraid, as a Mr. Gilbert, an expert and the grea­ system, you are exposing yourself to test banker of Great Britain, who had a greater criticism. said that “in order to be a successful banker, you do not have to be a Sir, there have been complaints philosopher, you do not have to be a that because the guidelines have not man of science, or a man of literature; been laid in respect of Directors as you require one quality which is to what they can do and what they called commonsense. That is precisely should not do. the Board agenda has what is necessary, if banking is to been discussed outside and certain meet the needs of the people. They clients are exposed to blackmail also. should adapt themselves. Because, I think every customer expects that if you look at the history of any in­ his transaction should be treated as dustrial house in this country, behind confidential. Well, I think these are the success of an industrial house, a few things which you will have to there is bank credit that made it look into immediately and set right. possible. But denial of that bank credit to a man of character and in­ So far as the recruitment is con­ tegrity can come in the way of their cerned, I think you will find the sug­ coming up in this country. The com­ gestion that you have made also is plaint against the banks before na­ not workable for the simple reason tionalisation was not that they helped that you can have regional Boards a few but that they denied credit to consisting of a few banks here and many. Today the same system con­ there. But all these banks are no tinues; the same complaints continue. 53 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 54 (Repeal) Bill You are going after target oriented forrar if, if performances. So you must have a faran, m f t r m *mr % fo r look into the banking system, its 'to ^ 1 working. The time has come when ■jftr ^ fircr wft w r t vti we have to review how the banking fa qrc srrftnrfter I 1 f system can be made more useful, Wee Pf ffver ffr tfrwinf vt more purposeful than what it is today. You are in a hurry to abolish what has come into existence. You are T # fa**&f( ’Tift TTffT at perfect liberty to make such chan­ prfnr qft w?r jjw $ fir 20 ^ *lf ?r*r ges as are necessary. It looks as if I’Trt tt wtt ^ this was not one of the commitments * *»n* f a f f 3ft ft irx g, r e f .qir « t^ rt far ifWWWV ^ s rw tv in the elections. I wonder whether ^rm w?r*ft «rr trk $*r 75m you think that you are going to de­ «r 1 ufa * * *r v wir «r centralise it. I have heard arguments *mii *ef $ girfrwta w ?r about decentralisation. You can have >fr nfVi'i frfa *nr*r % ■ fr bodies of this type working in decen­ w w 0m wiFd^iM vNnf ?r*ir 1 tralisation on paper but I am afraid # f n i WTC JHTfiT- that you will not achieve this pur­ tftaaT & ?ft stot*: *|?r frsffr $ ? pose. I think it is necessary that an «fft ^ Jf tfffar iftr all India policy has to be laid down. WTrA I The Reserve Bank and the few ban­ *ftsir ^rr fara Pcttt i % kers whom you have decided to con­ ifr ’T topt *r fftr sult are good but there must be wider T O PC wfo*fro jfto *TT «TT consultations. It is these men who ■J’T f3T*T 3TT?T VPTRV fiif ^*r srfir Tg'^n% *pt trt ^ 1 exactly you are going to achieve the ^ «pt *mmT ftr*r*f »rf^r objective is not going to carry us far. «rt TT rrqT 5RT ^ *T?ff ^ I Without making it a matter of pres­ v r t t t snrfirsft^T jpt afY jtow tige the government must be in a ftw wp VT^n1 ^ f>P *<*fi*f position to consult the Opposition, to ^Prt *f «Ptf ’srrNr ^ »t*t ^rrif 1 wr consult public opinion in this coun­ w ^nft *rr snft H»ft, Tnrt *nnf «pV WVlWrtT HWlf ^ I itTT WTPT $ f^r smfrT- try, all the bankers, the employees of im? vt srrr fH^rr »wr f. 1 banks also as to what system would «f5f 5*T W*T TT TfrXTPTI T%»fr 1 suit best in the light of the experi­ jtpitt?: t n T?!T % 1 war »fr *f%rr or and fulfulling system of banking in 5ct% «tt% grgftnr if ff 1 %f«r.-T this country. It has been the dream *r? wir> > Pf wsr t wfiftm if m of nationalisation but there has been tt ?nr%Jr % r^nff ftr»srm ft 1 failure in fulfilment to a very large extent. *TRnn:, *r% mrrrnirm fty ifa vr t 1 # Whft xm (*mfhR ) ; qrrtw f ffif | 1 srm rr?r wrw- ^ 1 «fpRr ^ v^rr ftr wwmv 4f^m ’nrr «rr 1 qrf % 5® ttS ^ ^ t sxnur^r 3RT fWT *PTT STITWr ‘+r«i fimftt? tfft 40 1W «fT I t o A ^ vtf fvvr ^t l # w ^TTK vt ft rr, tot ^ tt | i m nft ^ 3T5t nrr qrr c^t tt* q?t arfr anrar «ft eft tft 30— 35 T O T I I *r?Rfr 5PW fa *#t vpfo- »J5nr 9TcT $t *rft I WT '* 5RTT Wm § f«P ^ ft r %sj¥*r f t ftift ftnrr t i *^*nH 5T flfrarf %■ ytzr m yff ;i#r fc* «ft ? Sf W WTff f t Af^FT ft f% if? ht% t o fr ufffP ^r»rr i # ft *HF f ^ qr ?>ft ?*n^ rffo «fto o % ^c w «PT WRPT p*r forfepfr srirT | ftr f*rfi*r ftpn qrr?t ^ i v*i ?it ^*rr*f ®n%' v^f Kffft rt m sim % m v tw 51 ftW ly w 3nrf w, *flr *fr^r w r ^ «n?r ft5T qf^T vwnfii timi fr fRT » TW f ^TTT ft^TtVTlJ i^TT ffr irvx^ *nft 1 # farer *itfV % Tj^rr ftr 1 5® *ftr gFTW ft fft fxvix fa%4fft> <«i % t t Iffrff, *i«IMI*k wrfSf i*n ft ?w> vt m^hi irpft ft nsn 1 t gft ffip «Ar sfttff *f «Pr tfwr* fl*tW*rt f^ *r vt, «r*Ty?®v^r t nfar *rra" ?nr n ^ fi f>t itff *Rjr ^ 1 T-tf >fW ?n5t {ftsft I f^RT r irqr*r ft ft1* vhr^H 'rfww v*fhn?r ^ apt ^SfPnr MiT*fWt, f f xrt- ^at, ^Hjnsr If 5«W «nft | t ft, re? ®nrwr, 'W ^ *‘Jinww’ *n*n^r*T" % qf^r v^Yvrt Sf znpt ?m ft, IRWTT VHT Tt OTTOPFn H^t f 1 srtiff itff ft ^ P t TO? fr & mrcsjn*. vftx OTftftqwwft sg^> W*T 5VST ft I if? t VT «FT*r ?ft V q fW T Tcf^rtfTTT’T Tt 5f*S ^ T*RT t% tt jRifr faan tot ?ft jrerr sf* ftj ?nrnr % jfrt % ?ft¥f vt ^ftsrnt i t i i f t C T *n r wr air?# 1 anrt ^t?t ^ y r w itr ?f i»JTar *t ^ftw ahm ft tft 1 v w w r vt rpz Jt ?T vtf «FWra1iiftrA »nff T??fr ft, n f t r T^froftftrzt vt twit tow iTimv ft 1 'd,^ l*l ftr w f w r ftr - «|5t l»5Tfl ft, *T? r o t ftwO ^ v k %x 5® v^rv ?ftyfTq> 'fit «mt ffRum ft, ^sr % [fr*r ffftw fi*t [ f < w sftTT «TT, Nadu): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, wnen n l v vt i>who>i iff Tfr ft, ftr »nff lhe Leader of the Opposition, Mr. % irrt w vt ftrcff ?r?r «ire*ft nr Kamlapati Tripathi, was speaking, I ♦i%« % pw Sf tit inf 1 tftr «nr n had expected that he would go into the 9m if *ir ?tt wtt tS ing this Bill, which is not very bad, t ^ 1 f 1 srwifr # % t^r ^r, f^r fo* the acceptance of the House. WT7 % ^TftT 'dsmf TW ?t T^ TI«f THE MINISTER OP INDUSTRY T t ^ T !TT f t W T t rTTT ^ 3(1% TT TT*T ^t (SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES): Mr. T?T «TT I 17 ™ r , 1 9 7 5 T t if ^fT TI'JST T t "TW fTJTT, %fT«T TO 'TT Deputy-Speaker, Sir, the opposition to «PT*T VP? |«rr 21 Ttrtt, 1977 Tt «ftT arf this Bill, which has emanated from flt PPT Leader of the Opposition in the Rajya *>fi airaT «tt After sending out Mr. Morarji Desai. ftr m to t wt rfc | i wnr yfo a yr after th e y set up their own Congress n't ft &tt k i ft Trsjtf % vrvf and carried on their progressive fcPT 5RITTT p, *hT TTTCft % measures in the country, within a span f i irft 3* & emr efk Ir srrfaT t of five years, the assets of 20 mono­ fipuft mrramv It fvrot in*r f^vra1 poly houses in this country increased Ir irrav fanvt «rr?r ^ enrav t ft* from Rs. 2,500 crores to Rs. 4500 froft ft rnnmv vt ftr fcr ft urtf crores. We shall undo this. I pro­ # arnn mrr *rr ^ wtot SKt mise you that. (Interruptions) we srr^hTT | fv e v will undo all this. N0 amount of op­ sm 20 wn*ff anrt *t# jprn: position is going to prevent us from *f progressivism always for practical and pragmatic and reactionaryism. It is reac- things. Let there not be another tionaryism; it is very backward joint sitting for the next 15 years for looking. the simple reason that I do not want to raise any point of order, I do not want to spend—I do not want to say ■ft tnr aw * ttot Sf *ro 'waste'—one hour on that___ m r a r o r v t f ^ at 3*% mr ?*r ^Jftr tfnr anr ft aft w *t*t f*nrr MR. SPEAKER: One and a half ^ vrrjm fftmiyfN* $ i Hi? I position to give his decision on this issue. The whole world—people from the press gallery and also t*t % wn www *n$hpr wWr other people—is watching this historic igv ewRiv lyr ^ i occasion, this matter being taken up 71 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commbukm 72 (Repeal) Mil [Shri A. Bala Pajanor] 15 years, we are having this joint sitting of both the Houses. The pre­ in this august House. Though I have vious joint sitting was on the question been a Member *4or two terms, I had of dowry, a question which was sot seen before what has been writ­ affecting the sentiments of the people. ten in this Hall. People stuck on to the dowry system, and it was to be abolished. That was It was in this Hall that the Consti­ the occasion when there was a joint tuent Assembly met and framed the sitting of both the Houses. Constitution of our country. It is said here, ‘We are going to help the Now, we are meeting here to repeal people’. I am afraid I cannot claim the Banking Service Commission Act. like Shri Kamlapati Tripathi or What I have not understood is, Shri Hari Vishnu Kamath, who were what was it that was not given in the members of the Constituent Assembly, Statement 0f Objects and Reasons who framed the Constitution and then and which is sought to be done presented it to this country. But I now. Fortunately or unfortunately, can only say this. We, the younger I had the privilege of taking part in generation, irrespective of party affi­ the discussion of the very same Bill in liations, whether we belong to Cong-I 1975 when I was a member of the or Cong-O or CPI or CPM or All Lok Sabha—in the last term. We India Anna DMK or Janata, we, the supported that Bill at that time. Now younger generation, want the greatest we are supporting the measure to and the oldest people—excuse me for repeal it. That is the tragedy in this using this term—to give us something country. I can see that the Congress that the people of this country really Members here are jubilantly shouting want. I do not see any necessity or at this. Let them not force me to urgency at the moment to call a joint trace bfck. I can explain this to sitting to repeal a measure like this. them. We supported them on every But I want to be very plain in the issue in the past. But what happened beginning itself. My Leader and the to this country? We supported them present Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, in all their plans and programmes, Sir M G. Ramachandran, supports but what happened in this country? this Government on this issue for this We were expecting that the common man would benefit out of these. But very simple reason. As I said in the very beginning, we are not for any what happened? Therefore, do not 4ism’, we do not believe in ‘isms’. We shout like, this. We, Members of are not for any kind of slogans. Let Parliament, numbering 740 or so, them also not be carried away by claim to be the top representatives of the slogans. As I said, we are not for the 62 crores of people, but we are slogans. We are plain. Let this shouting like—I do not want to name; Government continue for the rest of I do not want to use any term here. the term for which the people of this This looks like a public meeting. It country, who are the sovereign mas­ does not look like a joint sitting of ters of this country, have voted them two Houses of Parliament where we to power. But, of course, it is left to exchange our views. It is like a those people who are administering public meeting. Therefore, I would it. ask my friends not to shout like this. If they have any argument, let them I do not think that, by repealing come and present it. We supported this Banking Service Commission Act, you not for one or two years but, they are going to do great wonders starting from the days of Jawaharlal in this country. But we are with Nehru, for 30 long years. I have seen them at this critical juncture. As I Morarji Degai there also. He was said earlier, it is a historical occasion; Minister for some time but for some after 1V68, that is, after a period of time he was sitting in the Opposition Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 74 (Repeal) Bill in the very same Lok. Sabha. Alter do not say that old people have old a spell of ten or eight years he has ideas. They have beautiful ideas. come back under a different name, the But at this juncture I would say that name of 'Janata*. 'Janata’ means we support this Banking Commis­ ‘people’. sion repeal for the simple reason that these people have come out with promises—I am referring to the As X said in the beginning itself, I Janata party. I am not bothered am not for any ‘isms’ or Party names about the composition of the Janata or terminology. We unfortunately Party. Whether they belong to five feel—in the south—that we cannot parties or six parties, it is a fact come to the top of the Opposition known to the world that the Janata because of the lacunae that there is is ruling this country for the past 13 in the constitutional system and in months. They have done something the very functioning of this country’s and that something is .liberty—which administration. It was said in the the Congress people cannot forget. past that only U.P.—walas can be­ May I ask the leader of my brethern come Prime Minister of this country. in both the Houses what was our fate That has been disproved by Shri in the past 19 months. I have great Morarji Desai who is from Gujarat. regard for the eX-Prime Minister of It is a fait accompli-, it is matter of this country, but there are facts fact which you and I cannot deny. which you and I canot deny. Is it not a fact that when we sat here in We sit in the Central Hall and take the Central Hall, you told me that I a cup of coffee and ice-cream to­ cannot express myself freely in this gether, but we have lobbies in the House? Why do you forget it? Is it House. We have partisan issues. We just because I belong to a small tickle one another and we also dig Party? Don’t take it that way. We the grave of one another in the very rule two States in this country: one same House. is Tamil Nadu and the o her is Pondicherry. If you play politics, we can also play better politics. I told the I remember, when I came here Central Ministers here: ‘Don’t touch as a visitor, how the young turks my men. If you touch them we will were trying to pave the way touch you’ and we 'have shown it. for Mrs. Gandhi to come to power. Such kind of politics Bala Pajanor As young men with a lot of feeling, can also play here. But now the we supported it with the great hope time has come for us to rise above that' Mrs. Gandhi will do something petty politics and petty feelings and great for this country. I do not say petty arguments also. (I am sorry that Mrs. Gandhi did nothing; I do to say ‘petty arguments’). I don't not say that Mrs. Gandhi’s perfor­ have double standards. I told you mance was zero. I remember that that from the beginning we supported immediately after elections, with the you, for 30 long years without any great guts and the courage given by reservations, on the question of my great leader Anna and the present language, on the question of economic leader MGR I sfcid you cannot under­ policies, on the question of 20 point estimate the advantages and merits of programme and on the question of the Emergency. One is discipline. I am so-called five-point programme also. sure Shri Morarji Desai, the present What happened to than? I am telling Prime Minister and others are also you the same thing now. When I feeling it: I know that the Speaker say this, it is only a question of is also feeling it, and that the same warning to them. We "had supported feeling is there in the other House. you but we have seen and assessed At times I used to feel that the elder you and found out what you are. House is full of young people and the Now a chance has been given to them, yoanger House is full of old people. I and they are coming with this BiTL 75 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission yS (Repeal) Bill [Shri A. Bala Pajanor] joint sitting of the two Houses is a unique one as 1 said in the very As i said in the beginning, there is beginning. I request you, Mr. Spea­ nothing historical about the Bill: ker, to make it a point that whenever there is nothing in it. They are going national issues are involved, you have to repeal the Act with the simple a joint sitting of the two Houses. I idea of decentralisation. I can appre­ am not talking of the rules and pro­ ciate the Hon. Minister because it is cedures. I am bored of these rules not like George Fernandes coming and procedures during the last twenty and saying something against the years of my practice in the courts. ICS cadre and the ex-Chairman The Law Minister is aware of it- A because, rightly or wrongly, the person in Thiruvettaikudi, orat Kanya present Finance Minister is also from Kumari or in a village in Bihar is not ■that cadre. ( Interruption). I have interested in the rules and pro­ to compliment Patelji on this issue cedures, on which we waste so much because he is bold enough to come time here. Let us go for important forward and say it. But I cannot problems, let us talk of ideals and see what those great statistics given ideologies in the joint siftings of the by Shri George Fernandes and other two Houses and not consider here arguments given by the ruling class such a piece of legislation, which, have to d° with the presentation of according to me, has no value. the Bill. When you repeal some­ thing, the other one also has to go Sir, when we vote for this Bill to­ with it. The ideologies within do day, we do that for a simple reason not come out; we cannot see what is that we are supporting this Janata behind you and who is going to dig Government, because they have given the grave of the other man even liberty to this country after a period within yourselves. That is the reason of nineteen months. And, it is a fact. I appeal to you and beg of you and But let us hope that that liberty is ask you, on behalf of my Party, i.e. not only to speak, but that'liberty is the Anna DMK, to come forward with for our stomachs, for our clothes and concrete things. We had enough of for our shelters. Unless you give that ‘isms' in this country, whichever to the people, our support is only Party was there in power. Let us not upto the mike, not beyond that. have that practice in this House. We support the ruling class at this junc­ With these words, I conclude. ture. We wish you, you rule another five years. When I say that, I want you to tell me, when you are going SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJSE to bring a Constitution Amendment (West Bengal): Mr. Speaker, Sir, Bill for the repeal of the Forty- when I was listening to the eloquence second amendment. You have live of our hon. Minister for Industry, I more years; do not make two more thought, perhaps I was listening to the years. You have five more years as speech of an eloquent speaker not in on date. In this period, you do it. the joint sitting of the two Houses, but in a public meeiting and more so, I was amazed when he was giving the Our Party supports you on the break-up of banks investments in question of this Bill with a great various areas and regions completely reservation and with a hope that y*u forgetting the break-up of bank ad­ would come with an alternative Bill vances to what extent, it serves the to supplement it. You have not done Government finances to planning .etc. that. I request you to come forward I only wish and I express it so, that with that as early as possible. whatever he has uttered so eloquent­ ly, let him remain in power and fulfil Before I close, I may say another o f what he has accused the previous thing. This opportunity of having a Government of not having imple­ Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900(SAKA) Commission 78 (Repeal) Bill mented and fulfilling that. May I He was talking of this Bill as a remind him, through you, Sir, that progressive measure of legislation. when he was speaking so much of Instead of resonting to verbal elo­ rural development, since the coming quence, if he had just consulted the of his party into power, not a single law which they are going to repeal, regional rural bank has been estab­ there be would have found out that lished. Shri Morarka was taking it was not one Commission which pride in saying that 48 regional was recruiting all the clerks and rural banks have been established, officers throughout the country. There more than 12,000 branches were were four Regional Boards and hea­ established—he was talking of the vens would not have fallen if instead rural credit, rural development pro­ of repealing this piece of legislation, gramme—may I humbly request him one single amendment could have to turn the pages of his own Economic been brought to the effect that instead Survey and find out that not even & of having four Regional Boards, you single regional rural bank has been are going to have seven Regional established since this Government Boards—one for the State Bank of came to power. This is because the India and six Boards for the rest ot hon. Finance Minister has appointed India. If you have done that, hea­ a Committee to look into the func­ vens would not have fallen. There­ tioning of the regional rural banks. fore, it was not a fact that by this Mr. George Fernandes is talking of Bill you are going to repeal the power the north-eastern region. Is he aware of recruitment concentrated only in of the fact that because of the pecu­ one agency. There were four Regional liar socio-economic problems of the Boards. You can make jt five. You North-Eastern Region banks are can make it six. You can make it finding difficulties to advance, parti­ even seven. cularly, to the agricultural sector and in September 1976 a Committee was You are talking of the distortion* appointed by the Reserve Bank it­ in the existing level of economy. Are self to sort out the problem and their you aware of the fact that the scheme report was before the government by which you are going to implement April 1977. May I know what has will only perpetrate the distortions been done to give effect to its recom­ and discriminations which are pre­ mendations to sort out the problem vailing in the recruitment in the bank­ of the North-Eastern region? It is ing sector? For the information of strange that a Minister intervening in Mr. George Fernandes, I can provide the debate should allow his imagina­ him some information. According to tion to go to so high and speak such the scheme they are going to intro­ things which have absolutely no re­ duce, both in the northern and cen­ levance. Is he in a position to tell tral India, the recruitment will take this House and take it into confi­ place from the States of UP, Rajas­ dence that he is in a position to en­ than, Madhya Pradesh, Himachal hance the credit-deposit ratio? Not Pradesh, Punjab, Haryana and Jammu to speak of enhancing the credit-de­ & Kashmir. The existing number of posit ratio, can he give us an indica­ vacancies are only 14000. That means tion whatever, if we go by their per­ people applying from these regions formance of the last one year, that are entitled to apply for only 14000 he is in a position to do even a part vacancies. The number of vacancies of it? Therefore, you should not for­ which will fail in the western front, that is, Bombay and Gujarat, is ex­ get what we can speak and what we p e n d to be 44000. People belonging can do. After all they are to run the to two States will have the opportu­ country and they are blessed with nity of applying, 44000 vacancies while people belonging to the central that responsibility. and northern India will have the 79 Banking Service MAY 18, 1978 Commission go (Repeal) Bill [Shri Pranab Mukherjee] Government. Government had power to do it. Full Commission was not opportunity of applying for only appointed. Government could appoint 14000 vacancies. This is the progres­ another type of people—extraordi­ sive measure doing away the existing nary, outstanding personalities from state of discrimination prevailing! outsiders, of whom they are contem­ Therefore, instead of resorting to plating and of whom they are talk­ high-sounding words, he should have ing of. This is not the fact; The fact concentrated his mind on the provi­ is they wanted to give power to the sions of the Bill and what they are existing Board of Directors of the actually going to have. It is no ques­ Bank. And there too you objected. tion 0f having one ICS officer ap­ We wanted to have social control over pointed as the Chairman of the the banking institutions. I would Banking Services- Commission. There like that you should have social too he is factually incorrect. The control over the banking institutions. Minister is a knowledgeable person Afler all you are accountable to the and he should have known that he is people through Parliament and we not an Indian Civil Service officer did not want that the Banking insti­ but he is only an IAS officer. That tutions which are going to recruit means he is neither here nor there. 20,000 people a year and which may That too he is going to replace one go upto 40,000 over a period of years, administrative officer by another civil nearly two to three thousand officers servant who was to leave the career who are going to be recruited and under the cloud of Mundhra inquiry who are to translate Government's and the Chagla Commission ___(In­ action to reality, who are to imple­ terruptions) Therefore, it is of no ment Government’s policy through use in passing on the responsibility the major primary institution, there and bringing facts which are not should be some control of the Gov­ correct and which have no relevance. ernment. That is why it was sug­ gested in the Bill itself that the Why do we oppose this legislation? Report rf the Commission s h o u l d be We oppose this legislation for various laid on the Table of the House. reasons. If you have gone through Heavens would not have fallen if the debate, the first ground is that we they would have amended the Bill oppose this principle of legislation by and incorporated whatever scheme ordinance because the reason which they are contemplating now. I sug­ the Finance Minister gave at that gested i( on earlier occasions also that time was that he was trying to save it could be incorporated. But they money when it was pointed 0ut to were too much obsessed. Whatever him that by merely winding up the has been done in the pe­ Banking Services Commission he riod of emergency that is to be un­ would be saving Rs. 7000—8000. Then done, completely forgetting that even it was asked why should he resort to today three Members of the Cabinet issuing an ordinance. You people day are sitting who were associated with in and day out went on condemning the previous government for reserv­ this piece of legislation when it ing to ordinances. But why are ybu went over for three years. Mr. yourself bringing this ordinance? George Fernandes has given a detail­ Why could not you wait for some time more and bring forward a full ed history of how the Commission’s fledged piece of legislation instead of recommendations were sorted out and resorting to ordinances. If you wanted previous Government took three to get rid of a particular man, what years. There is no denial of the fact prevented Government from re m o v in g the particular man and appointing a that we were delayed in implement* new man? Nothing prevented the ing the decision. 81 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 8z (Repeal) Bill I made my observations from the of today after your one year peifor- other House and I could have readily mance has reduced its deposit? Is agreed to accept the acquisition of it not a fact, if you look at the re­ the Finance Minister if he could have cruitment policy of the individual come and said, you took too much Bank, one of the most important time to implement that decision, here Bank serving in the Southern State I am implementing it quickly. is recruiting all its cadres not merely for two or three districts, but mainly The remedy which he suggested— all the officers from particular caste it reminds me of the remedy if some­ and from particular community? It body is suffering from headache, is in the content of that, it was found Doctor comes and suggests if no me­ necessary to have some sort of unifor­ dicine works on it, all right, cut off mity, some sort of objectivity, some the head. It is a remedy like this! sort of impartiality and t 0 see that a scheme is evloved in which there would be no scope of nepotism. There What is the point for abolishing would be no scope of any lacuna. It the Banking Service Commission? was found that if the persons doing Banking Service Commission had a this job are accountable to the Par­ statutory obligation. You are talking liament and the people’s representa­ of the representation of the Scheduled tives, they will always be on the Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. right track. I wish to draw the atten­ Just go through the list of the re­ tion of the hon. Finance Minister to cruitments and appointments and another aspect of the problem and it whether you are in a position even is this. He said that he would like in the neighbourhood of the quota to have seven Regional Boards. How fixed by law or by the statute? You can you merely confine your recruit­ are not in a position. Direction did ment from a particular area? You not work. are not limiting the area of opera* tion of the banks. Each and every You have been in power for full nationalised bank, the 14 nationalised one year. Just make a comparative banks in all, the scheduled banks study what you have done and what and the commercial banks have assu­ had been done in the past six years. med an all-India character. There­ I am ready to be convinced of your fore how can you say that you are own arguments if you can convince going to recruit the particular peo­ that in the past one year your per­ ple from the particular area to serve formance is better comparatively to the particular bank when the banks the previous regime. Therefore, it are operating all over the country? is no use in saying that we did noth­ Would not you like to bring in the ing in the past. If we did nothing all-India element? Would not yoir in the past, is it because of that you like to bring in some integration in are there and we are here? It is the recruitment policy of the bank­ no use in saying day in and day out— ing system? Would you not like to you want to make a comparative see that people, m whatever area study. Are you in a position to they may live, in whatever area they improve the situation? Are you in may reside,—if they have the talent, a position to say that you would if they have the capacity to compete be in a position to enforce in examination, if they can stand the law, implement the credit deposit test of merit,-should not be denied ratio in the rural areas 60 per cent the opportunity. But the scheme and 40 per cent which you have an­ which you are contemplating fe in­ nounced? Are you in a position to herently deficient because it will pro­ mop up resources? Is it not a fact vide more opportunities to lim its that even the biggest Premier Bank number of areas where due to some reason or other the banking system $3 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 84 (Repeal) Bill [Shri Pranab Mukherjee] So, I think, this Joint Sitting is ex­ tremely important for all of us for has come along. This is the hard one reason. fact of life. AH the 14 major na­ tionalised banks have their areas of Let us establish here once for all, activities in three or four cities. in the light of the mandate which Overnight you cannot undo it. But we have got for the coming four you could do one thing. You could years, that this nation will not tole­ recruit people from every part of rate any blackmail from any oppo­ India. But the scheme which you sition group, that once for all no are contemplating is completely frus­ opposition group can hold t i p the trating in that direction. nation’s progress. Therefore, Sir, I suggest to my colleagues, that let us Therefore, I request the hon. Fin­ vote in such a way that those who ance Minister not to stand on any want to stop the nation’s progress will prestige issue. Since this measure never again do any such thing, hold­ has been turned down in the other ing up the process of Parliament. House, this has been brought uo in Therefore, along with my hon. friend this joint sitting taking the opportu­ Mr. Bala Pajanor, I would plead this. nity of their enhanced strength in Even if he does not want it for an­ the Rajya Sabha and then to show other 15 years, he must assist us in to the whole world: ‘Look, here we vigorously opposing those measures are in a position to get through how­ which have been designed to see that ever irrational and absurd the pro­ the work of Parliament does not Pro­ position may be.’ gress. DR. SUBRAMAMIAM SWAMY (Bombay North-East): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the abolition of the Banking Sir, I rise in support of the Repeal Sqrvice Commission clearly, as has Bill. been explained, flows out of the decen­ tralisation network, from the decen­ tralisation frame-work, which, of There has been enough already said course, is part of the autonomy. ’ And on both sides of the House and I it is this autonomy that we want to will not repeat those points. preserve. There will be no damage or dislocation if the Banking Service But, Sir, it does amaze all of us Commission is folded up. And that when we see the vehemance with is what is to be remembered. A bad which some members in the opposi­ act was done; this was done slowly; tion groups have opposed this Repeal this was done hesitatingly. And then Bill. And the crocodile tears that it was rushed through during the were* shed for the Banking Commis­ emergency. The question is: why sion did make me a little surprised. was it rushed through in thP Emer­ gency? Why did they want it? It I don’t think that really the idea has got nothing to rio with the cen­ that the Banking Commission will tralisation. ( Interruptions) go out of existence is a thing that is worrying them. Since the last SHRI C. K. JAFFER SHARIEF Rajya Sabha elections there has been (Bangalore North): Shri Ram Jeth- a feeling amongst some opposition malani said in Bangalore that this groups—which have been flexing their was de-nationalisation. muscles, threatening the Janata Gov­ ernment with not assisting them in MR. SPEAKER: This is not a class­ room. the Rajya Sabha,—that they are los­ ing power, and loss of power is some­ thing that is responsible for the SHRI JAFFER SHARIEF: Let him shrill and rather extreme opposition. deny that. Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1800 (SAKA) Commission 86 (Repeal) Bill MR. SPEAKER: Please do not dis­ argued that this was a process of de­ turb. nationalisation by the backdoor. I DR. SUBRAMANIAM SWAMY: would like to make it clear thr.t I Sir, the real reason for the Banking had never been for denationalisation Service Commission was to strengthen of banks. I knew that the bank na­ the police state which was set up tionalisation was not motivated by during emergency. The erstwhile dic­ any economic reason. Once an egg tator wanted to use this Commission is scrambled, it cannot be unsearm- to assist the R.A.W. and the secret bled. The question is: why was the police to spread out in various cor­ nationalisation itself done? It was ners of India and putting all those not for economic reason. I was sur­ prised to see Shri Kamalapathi Tri- people whom they wanted to put in various strategic positions. pathi saying here that before na­ tionalisation only the monopolists rich Therefore, Sir, I was a bit surprised people, the landlords and the kulaks to see Mr. Pranab Mukherjee com­ kept money in the banks, and not the ing here and talking about freedom poor people of India, not the rest from nepotism and freedom from fa­ and, therefore, nationalisation was a vouritism by appointing such a Com­ great service. Well, if that is so, mission. If Mr. Mukherjee is fear­ then Siri Kamalapathi Tripathi can less, he should come out and tell do us a further great service, a great before everybody, this House, the national service, if he can tell in Commissions, all, what exactly he which Bank Shrimati Indira Gandhi did during emergency. Let him not had kept all her money. This way avoid his responsibility. he would have greatly assisted. It is So, why were the banks picked up? hardly fair to talk about the statistics It means appointments in Banks from without knowing what they mean. I 25,000 rising to 45,000 new appoint­ was surprised to see Mr. Mukherjee ments; from 1,500 officers it has risen to say that no rural banks have been to 4,000 officers every year. That opened in the rural areas. What is would mean at least 25 lakhs appli­ the need when the banks themselves cations. are opening rural branches all over Is this a manageable proportion. the country? It is interesting to Is this something that they can do see that, in the past, the total num­ efficiently? Obviously not. Further­ ber of rural banks branches were more, there is no centralisation: only one-third. But, during the last there is no uniformity as was argued. °ne year of Janata's rule, the num­ This Banking Service Commission ber of rural branches opened com­ leaves out the seven State Banks’ pared to the total is two-thirds. In subsidiaries; it leaves out foreign the past, it was one-third and now banks; it leave.* out the private it is 2/3rd. AJ1 the board of direc­ ibanks; it leaves out the Indus­ tors have been re-constitu^od. Every trial Development Bank; it leaves singlp board of director has onrm «wr( »nrr, w v t ^ a t enprt t t i sio wtxft (tfTvtxr) : www ftw im fh ift Jf r r grw wfirofw ®n«T it flr w t p n , ftwErm JflttPw^? ihmff % fimx ^ ijfi ?fT «rrw4 jot fv ersr^R HTgy aft v w f fxmn:8re 5ft firer arnf 'fiVTT'nfYar v t finFiilYV arerr?t- P w r »nrr v f t «rwt it Pr^n fam >nrr ? flfar ^?r Temft «r*r TRrenrrrV vt w verfeerf ^ wrnrr «nrr? *?f snrr swrfpr ^ «ft *>T T f ipf 1 vtftm ?ft v t, 1 15 tire *rr»rwrarr v n w f^ r «f: ?tt *prr fir jt?t farerqr srpr sft 'Tf^wift $r, sfer- arrr srnf^er «ft 1 srrr | $ 1 n? *ft vewnrr fa 1969 ftr #%>r in*ft>r Ir sncr ^ fsrr ^ ^rrfnrlf *f lifsftx if ^ ^ ^ % ?5T Vt ^ft Hrf, ■jwi »?> «fjft ?rr far» 16.16 tars. ^npTT f 1

[Mr. Deputy-Speaker in the Chair]

war $ ^nrr «jt*t wr 5ptt®t faflTsrr ’TifflT w a m vt UT’T «t r ?t «rr ww ar^r % »Tnr j far spx TTSefhrvrnr try jrf^ T ff’M V % 77, *TTOT % Tr%, ijfriPT tit! HrfWRft fararret % ^pnrr p rr «rr ut fw rt tfjt- *rt«fy % *rm %o fm rrfm *ftr «ft«rar *FT Tfl** % ®TfW Tt TTPprftT *TS rt?r w^rftr tfr Twrr tftr ft ^nwrerr ^ ffc f??fr t?? f«®n tWt 42. 2 arfimer r t r 4 6. 7 srffrorcr % ir "VTfiK I qyr fr tr^r SRt JTTlffW ^ m tftr »rm c>rfr Ir aft im* gr*nf •rf «ft ?pw Wt wnten *n? rf* i09srf?mefgf iftr^iWr^ f i r m * ^ 1 ^nr fftsr , fW t anftr fir r m t % w t w r q r * bto vt ^ #sr »iWf ft $frapff vt, frot ?t • th % f m Tftwr sn»rmt firefffrr «pt ftr «qft?rJTt v t !i#r f a f t i w f i m r t t a T ? V t f V T’T M b SRTlft ^T *f? OTTT ^srif frrttsr t o % wtrrlf % gnwlf ?t t WT<»V^«hrtl % ^sr»frn>r htiw *t wft: ^nflnr if «tt ftr w f^ft- »T!ff VTffr ^ ? t I 5ft ?rm «Rt flipt if 5TPTT o t % s ttt £*r m*frr?nr ^hnftim sron ?t»n ait *fft aft wtwnrviTT T t H*nRRt ^ f i $tt vjpt w*TT5r vt Tt, gvvt PTnr apr% tt Pt^jt ftnrr %f\x to W Pctt i fprrt firar w ftjttstt» ra rt|| i w m m % a m ip r «rf»efnt? ft t VFTT ftr ^5 ftw ft?ft 5TTT JTOTTftTCT W w T ift JT^t »txtt | ftr ftrn «ft?r if aft m rafanr VT 4>X I ^ t’TT ^T % BTTT URtfaTCT T^hffT *f ^ f t WW fkvnft fr ts ynr irnr Jf^t # ?nSt i 5T^tvijT»m |Pp 05; nftm TT*tftn SHRI DAJIBA DESAI (Kolhapur): tfw ¥t ( ftr flp rr^ t t wtPrt o f*w * iT f created an anomalous situation. The if an vr ftww ^ «i5t jttt ffr w w n Banking Service Commission Act, t I if t t ^ Pff in ft WV i f Wt*T *TT% which empowered the Government to 101 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Contnijiiofl 102 (Repeal) Bill have control over the working of the Government. Therefore I oppose bonking services, is being sought to this Bill. be annulled. The previous Govern­ ment did not implement the Act. It SHRI C. M. STEPHEN (Idukki): delayed the appointment of the Com­ Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, immediately mission and thereby its working. The after the speech of my friend, Shri present Government want to dismantle George Fernandes, I had an urge to it. So in one way, the previous Gov­ assume the role, which is habitual ernment, did not want to implement with me, the role of a public speaker. the Act, and the new Government is After a little bit of time, I overcame coming with a scheme to dismantle it. that urge and I now prefer to address There is a uniformity of thinking in this House as a House of Parliament. both these proposals that the Govern­ ment should not have control over the In my view, certain very very banking system. The previous scheme fundamental questions are involved in of nationalisation has basically accept­ the matter we are discussing. I would ed the control of the Government over urge upon the Members to whichever the banking system. Now the present party they may belong, to bring to Government, having brought forward bear on this matter an objective this Repeal Bill is going to lose it. approach. I make this appeal because So, they do not want to have control I know that, irrespective of the ap­ of the Government over the banking parent party affiliations members system. would be reacting differently to the Many hon. Members have said that proposition before the House. alter the passage of the present Repeal Bill the banks will go into the hands Something very extraordinary has of banking magnates or industrial been happening. A summons was magnates. The concentration of re­ issued to call the House on the nth cruiting agency, the centralisation or September. After the issue of Sum­ decentralisation of it, these are not mons, rather when the House was the real issues in the Bill. The real about to meet, on the 19th September issue in the Bill is whether the control an Ordinance was issued. This is of the Government should be there. against the stand of the Janata Party Both parties do not want it. One many members of the Janata Party party refused to implement it and the have been taking all along. I was other party does not want it. wondering what was the urgency when you knew that the House was meeting. When the Janata Party came to After all, the summons was issued. power, immediately they issued an Ordinance, probably the very first How did this Ordinance come? The Ordinance, to repeal the Banking Com­ Rajya Sabha rejected the Bill and here mission. That means they want to is a Joint sitting, very rare. In 1971 implement the policy of free enter­ we had one. Many years thereafter, prise. The Bill basically deals witfi a joint session is summoned. May I this policy and, therefore, my party ask in all humility: is the matter of decided to oppose the Bill. If it is only such momentous consequence of such a question of centralisation as has a fundamental importance as to call been stated by the ruling party, it did for a joint sitting? Could heavens not prevent them from improving the have fallen down if the joint sitting Bill. They could have brought in was not held? I do not understand amendments or proposals for the de­ what is the principle involved in it. centralisation of the recruiting agency. The Finance Minister has been ex­ So, it is not really a question of the plaining that this is for the purpose of recruiting agency; it is really a ques­ decentralisation, this is for the purpose tion of the abolition of the control of of rural benefit, recruitment on an 103 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 104 (Repeal) Bill (Shri C. M. Stephen] 'Parliament. The Commission had to give a report of their annual function­ equitable basis and all that. I am ing land the report had to come before afraid, all these are provided in the the Parliament. Now, with respect to Act that is before you. We have got this sector, whatever the finance Min­ Section 3 of this Act.. Section 3, sub­ ister wanted had been provided for in section (4) provides for regional offices this Act. Over and above that, ac­ in such State or group of States as the countability to Parliament was provid­ Commission may, with the previous ed for. And over and above all these, approval of the Central Government this Act provided that the provisions determine. We have got Section 7< of this Act by a notification can be which says: extended to other banks also. This Act was an attempt or extension of “The Commission m ay... consti­ the nationalisation of banks by an ex­ tute one or more committees con­ ecutive order, by a notification in the sisting wholly of its members and gazette and of arrangement for re­ partly of other persons and delegate cruitment not only in certain public to any committee so constituted such sector banks but other banks also. I of the functions and powers of the am asking: why did this become in­ commission as may be prescribed in convenient? Why was it necessary the rules made by the Central Gov­ that it should be scrapped? This Act ernment.' ’ provided for the regional arrangement that you want. This Act provided for Section 11 says: the reservation of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes which you want. “The Commission shall call for This Act provided for the examina­ applications from such category of tion in various States which you want. persons and in such manner as may Yc-u want sub-commissions attached to be specified by it in the regulations different regions. This Act provided and conduct of examinations in such for that. Therefore if your new ar­ State or group of States as may be rangement is for all this purpose, the necessary having regard to the re­ purpose is provided for in the Statute quirements of Section 17...” with a redeeming feature of account­ ability to the Parliament every year. ^Section sa y s : 17 The new arrangement that you are making is an executive arrangement “The Central Government may, by order, direct that in relation to which will depend on the whims of every public sector bank reserva­ the executive officer. There is no ac­ tions in favour of the Scheduled countability to Parliament at all, there Castes, Scheduled Tribes and other is no extension to the other banks at categories of persons shr'i be made all it will remain confined to the In such manner and tr -ich extent public sector banks. as it may specify.. ’’ What is the new arrangement you What I am submitting is that this are making? You are dividing banks Act provided for regional offices, into different groups—Eastern Group: examinations in different States and in United Commercial Bank and United different languages specific quota for Bank of India; Southern Group: Indian the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Bank and Indian Overseas Bank. Am Tribes people. This Act provided for I to understand that only the southern appointment of sub-commissions to hold people will be entitled to go to these examinations and to arrange for re­ Banks? If they have to go to some cruitment. Over and above that there other bank, they will have to go to is another thing which this Act pro­ North India. Whereas under the ar­ vided by Section 22—accountability to rangement provided for under the Act, 105 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1000 (SAKA) Commission 106 (RepeaI) Bill examinations would be held in the machinery to get some people into it different areas, pooling would take and expand the circle there being no place of the selected candidates, and extension to other banks, there being the candidates would be allotted to no accountability to Parliament. This different banks. It is this wholesome is the meaning of the whole step. arrangement that you are scuttling. Is it in the interests of the country? We say that it is de-nationalisation That is what I am asking. of the banks. You may not de-nation- alise in so many words. But nation­ When Pandit Kamlapati Tripathi alisation had a purpose, a social pur­ spoke about the Act being progressive, pose. Banks will pursue a policy in my friends made fun of it. Mr. Rama- accordance with the personnel control­ murti was asking: what does he mean ling them. You may spell out any by reaction? It is a very wonderful policy but if the personnel is of a -picture, a wonderful combination, of different character, the social policy Mr. Rarr.amurti on the one side, the will not be achieved at all. You do RSS on the other side and the socialist not have the guts to de-nationalise the prophet on the third side all these banks and, therefore, you do it by the people coming together and tell us back-door. This is a back-door method what reaction is and what progress is. of putting people into the banks and managing the affairs through these people who will not be accountable to I say it is a reaction, it is retro­ anybody at all. This is in effect de­ grade step because it is a recruitment nationalisation of banks. This is what arrangement without ultimate account­ it comes to. Further extension to other ability to Parliament, without the areas is something impossible. possibility of its extension to the other banks, and therein lies reaction therein Before I sit down, may I ask the lies the retrograde nature of the whole Finance Minister one question? What step. is the legal position now? There was a repeal ordinance, an ordinance which It was asked why a statutory com­ repealed this Act. What is the effect mission was necessary. May I put a of it? Would you say that the Act counter question to them? Do you remains or it does not remain? agree that the Public Service Commis­ sion is a good arrangement, or would As far as my understanding goes, as you say it is not or are you just has been spelt out by the Law Com­ tolerating it because the Constitution mission and the Supreme Court a’so, lias provided for it? Would you prefer the position in law is: to scrap it? If, with respect to ap­ pointments in the public services, the “Under Section 6(a) of the Public Service Commission is neces­ General Clauses Act if by efflux of sary, why under the heavens do you time, the period of a temporary think that for the purpose of recruit­ statute, which had repealed an ment to the banks, a service commis­ earlier statute, expires, there will sion is not necessary? If a Public not be a revival of the earlier one Service Commission is necessary there, by the expiry of the temporary a service commission must be accept­ statute." able to you here necessarily. There­ fore the ultimate inference is irresis­ This is what the Supreme Court also tible that the purpose of the arrange­ says that once you repeal, under the ment is not better recruitment, the English Act, it is as though the Act purpose is something serious as men­ was never on the Statute Book. If that tioned by my hon. friend Shri Bhupesh is the position, that is the key to your Gupta, fee purpose is through some mischievous move. This is a Repeal 107 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 108 (Repeal) Bill [Shri C. M. Stephen] Socialist International, Mr. George Fernandes. Act which means that the Act is gone. There is no question with respect to With these words, I oppose the Bill. continuing or ceasing to operate the Act. You cannot continue to operate killing the Act. You can kill the 16.44 hrs. Act once. The killing has been done, the killing does not continue. [M r . S pea k e r in the Chair]

SHRI SANKAR GHOSE (West The only question is, whether the Bengal): Mr. Speaker, Sir, last time, revival has been killed. The Supreme the joint session met on a historic day Court has said that there will be no in 1961 to pass a socially progressive revival. If that is the case, then it measure. Today, the Janata Party is an exercise in futility. If that is Government will have the unique dis­ not the case, if the Act is revived, tinction of calling a joint session to then the Banking Service Commission pass an economically regressive is revived. In the meanwhile, the measure. recruitment should have been done through the Banking Service Commis­ There are many reasons for oppos­ sion. How was the recruitment ing this Bill and an additional reason effectuated? Did it effectuate through has been put forward by the hon. the Banking Service Commission? Minister of Industry who intervened. Obviously not. Therefore, dilemma He said, “Anything brought about by is not clear. Either you tell us that an ICS man we view with suspicion.” the Commission is revived, the Act This Bill has been brought forward is revived and, if it did, all your by an eminent ex-ICS man and it recruitments were void and were in requires to be viewed with suspicion. violent of the mandatory order of The Industry Minister said that they Parliament, or. if it is not revived, want to undo what we have done. To why then this nonsense of a Repeal that extent, he is right. This Bill Act? There cannot be a repeal of seeks to undo what we through the something which is already dead. then Deputy Prime Minister and the This means that your Ordinance was Finance Minister, Mr. Morarji Desai, a fraud on the Parliament. It was a did in appointing a Banking Commis­ deliberate fraud on the Parliament. sion. He appointed the Saraiya Com­ You were not prepared to come to the mission and on the basis of his report Parliament through a straight course. this Act, the original Act, was passed. You came to it with a dead body of an Act which by an Ordinance you Through this Bill, you want to un­ killed. Now, you want us to sit in do the parliamentary control which this joint session and go through a was provided in section 24 of the ceremony of repealing what has al­ original Bill. Through this Bill, you ready been repealed. I am not for a want to undo the reservation for fraud on the Parliament. This is a Scheduled Castes and Tribes which fraud on the Parliament. The Ordi­ was provided in the original Bill. nance wtis a fraud on the Parliament. Before this Bill, an attempt was made to repeal an Act by an Ordinance This move is towards de-nationalisa. only a few days before Parliament tion of banks. This move is towards was to sit. The attempt by this Bill an infiltration of your people in the is really to ensure that there is no all vital sector of the economy of this India impartial recruitment authority country. You are putting the clock and that the recruitment policy may backwards and you will be defeating be controlled by 8ome units of the the purpose of a pseudo-prophet of Janata Party. 109 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1800 (SAKA) Commission I io- (Repeal) Bill You could as well rename the Bank, competition in certain specified pro­ ing Service Commission as Jan Sangh ducts area will be allowed to be closed Service Commission or RSS Service down. Therefore, if the policy is to- Commission. That ig the real pur­ undo what has been done through pose of this Bill. You could have re­ bank nationalisation, then this Bill is named it. an appropriate Bill.

So far as this Bill is concerned, it So far as undoing of what we had was brought about by an ordinance done is concerned, the Industry only a few days before Parlia­ Minister have also mentioned some ment assembled. It was brought figures about bank credit and bank about by an Ordinance with­ nationalisation. In July 1969, the bank out any consultation, whatsoever, with credit by commercial banks to the Opposition. It is a black measure rural sector was 22 per cent and in which has been opposed by the work­ 1973 it became 51 per cent. Do you ing class. It is a measure by which want to undo that? So far as agricul­ you will make recruitment not on an ture is concerned, in July 1968, the impartial all India basis but on the percentage of loan to agriculture was basis of regional considerations and only 2.2 per cent and by December political considerations, and ultimate­ 1972, it had been increased to 9 per ly hand over the recruitment policy cent. Do you want to undo that? to one constituent of the Janata Party Certain figures about bank nationalisa­ conglomerate. tion have been given. In Agricul- tuv the loan given in June 1969 was So far as banking is concerned, the only Rs. 160 crores and in June 1973, Industries Minister has mentioned it was about 12 times. What has been about bank nationalisation as if said is that with regard to this Bill, nothing has been done. So far as you want to undo what we have done. rural banking is concerned, the policy of the Janata Party Government has Now, so far as bank nationalisation been to put an end to the expansion is concerned, bank nationalisation was of rural branches. Can it be denied not only for the purpose of getting that this has been the policy of the control over the finances but it was Janata Party Government? Was not for the purpose for ensuring that the the Dantwalla Committee appointed finances go to the agricultural sector, and did not the appointment of to the priority sector, to the rural that Committee operate as an em­ sector. You say you want to undo bargo on expansion of rural branches? that. With the policy that the Janata Party Government is pursuing you If you want to undo the whole can undo bank nationalisation because policy, you have succeeded because in with the policy that you are pursuing the year you took over, the growth in you need not have any bank for giving industrial production was 10.6 per any loan. One of the declared poli­ cent, and you have succeeded in cies of the Janata Party Government bringing it down to 5.6 per cent. In in the Sixth Plan Document >s that the year you took over, the number you will allow international com­ of unemployed persons registered with panies, multinationals, to come to this the Employment Exchanges was 9.6 country and you will allow Indian millions, and now it hag increased to companies to close down. If that is 10.8 million; you have been able to the policy, then there is not need increase the rate of unmployment by for banks to be nationalised. In the 12.5 per cent. The increase in invest­ Sixth Plan Document, you have said ment in the public sector in the Fifth expressly that industries which can­ Plan was 160 per cent more than in not stand upto limited international the previous Plan, but the Sixth Plan: f 11 Banking Service MAY 16, 1976 CommimUm j l2 (Repeal) Bill [Shri Sankar Ghose] Here w« have listened to thedebate; we have listened to the Leeder of 4hat you have presented the increase in public sector investment is only 60 the Opposition and al«o to the Minis­ per cent; you have succeeded in bring, ters. The debate reminds me of one ing that down. So far as the man- sentence ot George Bernard Shaw. days lost in industries are concerned, ‘While passing through the road, I in the year before you took over, the stopped somewhere, at what they call man-days lost were six millions and the ‘talking shop’ or Parliament and now it is 11 millions. I found thore that the pot was lectur­ You have succeeded in undoing the ing the kettle on its blackness*. The Leader of the Opposition, whether in rate of growth in industrial produc­ the Rajya Sabha or the Lok Sabha, tion and in the other sectors----- accuses the Janata Party as a re~ MR. SPEAKER; Please conclude. actionary Party. You must know one thing first. The Janata Party is not SHRI SANKAR GHOSE: Therefore, a Party. Like the holy Roman em­ Sir, I oppose this black Bill totally pire, the Janata Party Government is .and completely. neither a Party nor a Government and, as tlie last election has shown SHRI A. K. ROY (Dhanbad); Mr. the janata is also gradually going Speaker, Sir, I thank you for having away from them. The question is given me this opportunity. Perhaps, that the Janata Ministers started talk­ -we should thank the Janata Govern­ ing of rural development and the Con­ ment for having given us this opportu. gress Party Ministers had started talk­ nity to listen to this wonderful debate. ing about reactionary progressive This debate reminds me of rr.y Uni­ things. One is a P

Then, he referred to the fact that Shri Pranab Mukherjee spoke very the issue of the Ordinance used to be passionately. Well, he might, because opposed by us when we were in the during his period many things happen_ Opposition. Undoubtedly. The op­ ed, which perhaps ought not to have position wag not to the issue of the happened. One would think that he ordinance but the opposition was to was moved by all the wrong things the issue of the ordinance on the eve that are now contemplated by thiv of the commencement of the session, Government, but he forgot the kind cr immediately after the session came of persons that were appointed by 315 Banking Service MAY 18, 1978 Commission 116 (Repeal) Bill [Shri H. M. Patel] soever of any kind of banking to be appointed as the Governor of Reserve him as Chairmen o! the Banks. Bank—could there be any— Reserve Bank is the central Bank of Ihe country. Whom did he select for SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: It its chairman ?•* was not done by me. (Interruptions) had no experience whatsoever of banking... SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE; I was not the Minister of Banking. SHRI VAYALAR RAVI (Chira- yinkil): On a point of order...... SHRI H. M. PATEL: My hon. < Interruptions) friend is so very sensitive but he took no trouble----- The rules say that no Member will name any individual who is not here SHRI N. K. P. SALVE (Maharash­ in the House to defend himself. Shri tra) : Mr. Mukherjee, please go to H. M. Patel is- a Minister himself and the mike. he is abusing a gentleman who was the Governor of Reserve Bank... SHRI H. M. PATEL: I find him (Interruptions) very sensitive but he did not take any trouble to verify anything when he said this. MR. SPEAKER; Do not record this. (Interruptions) SHRt H. M. PATEL: We have «een---- SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: He is misleading the House. MR. SPEAKER: I allowed the point ( Interruptions) of order.... (Interruptions) SHRI H. M. PATEL: I have no objection to withdraw it.... (Interruptions) Don’t record. SHRI H. M. PATEL: If there is so I find it very strange when this hon. much sensitivity on the subject, I Member said in the ccnurse of his -will say nothing___ observations that the Finance Minis­ ter, also a former ICS officer, left ( Interruptions) under a cloud. Now, Sir, he should know that there was never any ques­ MR. SPEAKER: I have allowed tion of my leaving under a cloud. the point of order. He should not Whatever inquiry there was, it has have referred. exonerated me completely and I left SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: Please of my own free will after the whole thing was completed end I said that delete the name. I will not come back to government. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. I have allow­ But I am afraid the hon. Member ed the point of order. did not take care to verify the fates when he made charges. I made no SHRI C. M. STEPHEN; What Mr. charges. But the fact remained that Ravi said may also go. this appointment was m ade.... (In­ terruptions). If the hon. Member SHRI H. M. PATEL: The appoint­ was not responsible for it, I am sorry ment of someone—let me put out the and I withdraw it. But, certainly, name—who had no experience what­ it is a fact that this appointment was

••Expunged a« ordered by the Chair. I i j Banking Service VAISAKHA 23, 1900 (SAKA) Commission I l8 (Repeal) Bill made by the former Government MR. SPEAKER: There is no such Now, when you consider so many rule, Mr. Saugata Roy, Please sit other appointments which were re­ down. You are repeatedly obstruct­ ferred to, there are others also. There ing the proceedings of the House. was a question of a former Chair­ (Interruption*) man of the State Bank—a Chairman MR SPEAKER: Mr. Lakkappa, of the State Bank and one of the finest Chairmen the State Bank has please sit down. He can. had and in order to see that he should SHRI H. M. PATEL: The hon. g o .... leader of the Opposition in the Rajya SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: He was Sabha said something about this step the most corrupt — being a reactionary step. It is diffi­ (Interruptions) cult to understand what exactly he sees that is reactionary in this. MR. SPEAKER; What is all this? I (Interruptions) cannot understand if there can be any objection to praise anybody. They are so jaundiced to anything There is no rule which debars a man that may criticise them. They can­ praising anybody----- not take that. AH the time, for the last several hours, they have been SHRI SAUGATA ROY (Barrack- criticising and using arguments which pore): On a point of order. are totally removed from reality. (Interruptions) You made these charges and we MR. SPEAKER: Please resume listened to you patiently. Unfortu­ your seat. There is no point of order. nately you are not able to hear or (Interruptions) listen to what is fact. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Saugata Roy, I am not allowing you. Please sit These hon. Members have been so down. You are unnecessarily obstruct­ accustomed to riding rough shod over everybody’s feelings. They were ing the House. (Interruptions) under dictation. This was what they learnt during emergency—that they MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Saugata Roy, shall do anything that might be told I am not allowing you. Please sit to them without question, without down. The idea seems to be to dis­ argument. We do not want that. We turb the House. want you to put forward reasons, but with reason, not shouting and pro­ SHRI H. M. PATEL: In the history testing for every little thing that has of Parliament this is a unique thing, been said. a unique kind of experience which can only happen once a while. And Mr. Tripathi said that this is re­ that was to see that one officer was actionary. What is the definition of removed. An Act of Parliament had reactionary? Whatever he does not to be brought to amend the rules like is reactionary. That is not a relating to leave, to resignation, etc. good thing. Let me just point out in so far as it applied to the officer. about these appointments that were This is the kind of thing they do. made which I referred to. When this is brought out, they rise There were Acts. There were in protest. statutes and everything. How do these appointments come to be made— SHRI VAYALAR RAVI; He was so utterly Irresponsible, so utterly most corrupt. against public interest. These were ( Interruptions) 119 Banking Service MAY iS, 1976 Commission 120 (Repeal) Bill (Shri H. M. Patel) needs of private sector industry and made by these very progressive trade, big or small, should be met. gentlemen. I do not call them reac­ tionary. I would call them progres­ Fourthly, it would be the endeavour sive. This is not your definition of of the banks to ensure that “the needs pTogressivism. of productive sectors of the economy, and, in particular, those of farmers, A hon. member said that the ob­ small scale industrialists, and self- jectives with which the banks were employed profesisonal groups are met nationalised, those objectives will not in an increasing manner.” be achieved. Has he taken the trou­ ble to look at any facts at all? Let me read to you what the then Prime I may say, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that Minister said in July, 1969. She made today these needs are being met to a statement to the two Houses of a far greater extent proportionately Parliament on the objectives on which than they were ever being met be­ fore. banks were nationalised. These ob­ jectives were— Then this goes on to say: ‘Nationa­ 1. Mobilisation of savings of the lised banks will actively foster the people to the largest possible extent growth of new and progressive enter- and to utilise them for productive preneurs and create fresh opportuni­ purposes in accordance with our ties for hitherto neglected and back­ plans and priorities. ward areas in different parts of the country.’

Is there anything that has happened during the last fourteen months, that I do not know what they did about Rives you any reason to think that this. The figures show what they The mobilisation of resources has did was negligible compared to what slackened? No, it has increased. The we have done in these 14 months. pace has gone much fester. Do you What We have done is of a substan­ realise this? It is a fact, I can prove tial order. chapter and verse.

Then it says, ‘the use of bank Then he said about productive pur­ credit for speculative and unproduc­ poses in accordance with our Plans tive purposes will be curbed.’ Of and priorities. Now, of course, it is course, it is being curbed. What has still going to be used for productive happened in the last year since the purposes, but in accordance with our change of the Government is that the plans and our priorities. Our priori­ public sector banks have been active ties are to use them for the develop­ in the mobilisation of deposits. They ment of rural areas. ( Interruptions). have been active in the provision of This is of the highest priority. (Inter- credit to industry and trade and ruptiona). Mr. Lakkappa, tears will particularly for the neglected sectors. be in your eyes if you listen to these The Reserve Bank’s regulations for charges against you. preventing the use of credit for spe­ culative purposes have been strength­ Now, Sir, the second point is this, ened. that the operations of the banking system should be informed by larger The Government has taken social purpose and should be subject numerous steps to further the social to close public regulations. This is objectives which they wanted the what is being done. Legitimate credit public sector banks to subserve. 121 Banking Service VAISAKHA 1900 ( SAKA) Commission 122 (Repeal) Bill Now, take the question of the bank employed in such areas, unlike what expansion. It has been mentioned was happening before when a major before, but I will repeat again, be­ portion of the deposits collected in cause it is important to note this. rural areas were being siphoned out and used outside, in the metropolitan The total expansion of branches and other areas. Today we have call­ and the expansion of rural branches ed upon them to see that this is the has been at a record level in 1977. target we have fixed; you have to In the rural areas, 2261 branches were work. We have extended the differen­ opened in 1977. Figures were the tial rate of interest scheme to the previous years were: 1974—608; 1975— entire country, whereas in their 759, 1976—1400. And what was the it was confined to limited areas. I figure for 1977? I may say it again,— think my hon. friend does not like 2261. Can anybody say that nothing that 1 should read. I win not read. is being done? ( Interruptions). But, when the facts have to be given, I am afraid, I have to look at them. ME. SPEAKER; There is no point of order. Then, Sir, it was said by Mr. Pai that the Act itself provides for re­ SHRI SAUGATA ROY: He cannot servation for scheduled castes and read it, Sir. (Interruptions). scheduled tribes. It is better than administrative directions. Now, Sir, MR. SPEAKER: There is no point he himself really said as to why it is of order. Order, order. Please re­ that such statutory provisions are sume your seat. really not there. Really you don’t allow that degree of flexibility. That SHRI H. M. PATEL: Look at the is necessary in administering such order---- provisions. He himself pointed out that the recruitment by banks should MR. SPEAKER: You please pro­ not be governed by degrees etc. Vari­ ceed. ous qualifications are required. But, the most important of which is the SHRI H. M. PATEL: Yes, Sir, I commonsense. This is what he says. will. I am strictly within my rights in reading what I want to read. Now Now, if this is to be ensured, then I can give them a little more facts steps have to be taken and, it is in to which they may kindly listen. order to provide this degree of flexi­ bility that we consider that statutory When we took over, there were as provisions are not necessary. But, many as 750 community development the more important point is this that blocks in the country without a bank. although they had statutory provi­ In one year, it has been reduced to sion in the Act and although they 250, that is t0 say, we have set up had been talking of reservation for 450 banks in undeveloped areas. It scheduled castes and scheduled tribes, is our intention to see that by June there had been no directives under 1978—by June this year—With the section 17 of the Act regarding re­ exception, perhaps, of a dozen or so, servation for scheduled castes and all the community development blocks scheduled tribes in the Banks’ recruit­ will have a bank. You say we are ment or promotion. When we came not observing the social objectives on the scene, through executive ins­ with which the Banks were nationalis­ tructions, we have brought about ed. It is only now that the work is this situation whereby banks have really starting; we have asked the been required to observe strict re­ banks to ensure that sixty per cent of servation of 15 per cent for scheduled the deposits mobilised by them in castes and 7-1/2 per cent for sche­ hiral and semi-urban areas should be duled tribes even in promotion and 1157 LS—6 123 Banking Service MAY 16 1978 Commission J24 (Repeal) Bill [Shri H. M. Patel] Other centres will also be selected and recruitment will be made there. actually implement them. The House The point my hon’ble friends in the will be glad to know that the per­ Opposition have not taken note of is centage oi scheduled castes and sche­ thafc they seem to imagine for all duled tribes in total recruitments in tima to come banking in this country 1977 was more than 30 per cent. (In­ is yoing to be conducted in English. terruptions) . AN HON. MEMBER: Sir, I rise on SHRI C. K. JAFFER SHARIEF: a point of order. I would like to Why do they shout? know the percentage of Harijans and Girijans among the bank employees? MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. The Minister has said it is 30 per cent. It is wrong. SHRI H. M. PATEL: Sir, I would like to say something. (Interrup­ SHRI H. M. PATEL: What I said tions) was that of the recruitment made in 1977 we have had 30 per cent. That SHRI C. K. JAFFER SHARIEF: does not mean all the previous back­ Why do they shout? log was put right in one year. This is not what I said. My statement MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down? was very correct and careful Dont disturb. You can’t put ques­ tions. Sir, I will have to g0 back to the point about regional languages. SHRI H. M. PATEL: What I said It should be remembered that banking is-----(Interruptions) will have to be conducted in langu­ SHRI SAUGATA ROY: This should ages other than just English and if that is to be done, then greater em­ be laid on the Table of the House. phasis will have to be laid on re­ cruitment of people knowing those MR. SPEAKER: You are required languages. It was suggested like to sit down. He is referring to the UPSC if this statutory Banking Ser­ figures. You have only five minutes vice Commission is allowed to have more. recruitment in different centres that will produce what we want, that is, SHRI H. M. PATEL: I would like a large number of people from differ­ to say that the necessity and the ent regions will get recruited. Sir, need for decentralisation is very we know what has been happening great. There is need for ensuring in U.P.S.C. I mentioned about it in that as large a number of people as my initial observations that the re­ possible should be recruited from cruitment was only confined to a each region with the knowledge of limited number of people drawn from language of that area. a few States. A great majority of States hardly had any representation Now it was said in a critical man­ in the All India Services. This is ner that if this is going to be the something which we want to avoid. case then people from Haryana will We can avoid that only if we do in not be able to compete for places all the manner I have suggested. It is over India. There is no risk of this our intention to see that the recruit­ nature at all. What is contemplated ment for the banking industry where is that the recruitment machinery the bulk of the recruitment to offi­ will be operated at these different cers cadre is also made from amongst centres and the recruitment will not clerks is from the right calibre. As be confined to these centres only. the clerks get experience, they are 125 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26,1900 (SAKA) Commission 126 (Repeal) Bill promoted. Therefore, greater empha­ Table where the votes shall be sis has to be laid on the recruitment counted by the officers at the Table of clerks. They have to be of the and the totals of ‘Ayes’ and ‘Noes' right calibre and know the right presented to the Speaker. number of languages. What is ar­ ranged is that the different centres (3) The result of the Division will recruit people who speak lan­ shall be announced by the Speaker guage of those areas. They will also and it shall not be challenged.” recruit personnel required for other banks who have to speak these A single slip will be given to each languages. Because all these banks Member which is printed on both are all-India banks, in the same way the sides. The side on which matter in other centres we have to meet the is printed in green ink is meant for requirement of other banks. In this recording of votes for “ Ayes” and way we will ensure that as large a that printed in red ink for recording number of persons as possible are of votes for “Noes”. Members are represented in every region who can requested to put their signatures and be of speaking all the languages. Sir, write legibly the following details on I think that this is the only real «nd the slip: necessary step. We have taken real­ ly a progressive step and we will (1) Name achieve the objectives that we have in mind. (2) Division Number (This will MR. SPEAKER: The question is: be the same as the division number allotted to the Mem­ “That the Bill to repeal the ber in Lok Sabha or Rajya Banking Service Commission Act, Sabha)— 1975, as passed by Lok Sabha and rejected by Rajya Sabha, be taken (3) House to which he belongs. into consideration for the purpose of deliberating on the Bill.” SHRI SAUGATA ROY: Regarding the procedure that you have adopted Now there will be division by for division, I object to the whole distribution of “Aye” and “No” slips procedure. Though the speaker under in accordance with Rule 367AA of the Rules of procedure of Lok Sabtu the Rules of Procedure and Conduct does have power to devise the rules of of Business in Lok Sabha. Rule voting, think that division by slips 367A A provides as under: without automatic recording system can give rise to manipulations on the “367AA. (1) Where the Speaker part of the government which is in a directs under clause (c) of sub-rule hurry to pass this Bill. Let my objec­ (3) of rule 367 that the votes shall tion to that procedure of division by be recorded by members on "Aye” distribution of slips be placed on and “No” slips, the Division Clerks record; let my objection to the govern­ shall supply to each member at his ment attempt to manipulate voting be seat, an “Aye” or “No” slip, ac­ placed on record. cording to the choice indicated by him. A member shall record his vote on the slip by signing and in­ MR. SPEAKER: The objection is dicating his Division Number there­ untenable. I am going according to the rules framed by the House, namely on. rule 367AA. (2) After the members have recorded their votes, the Division SHRI K. LAKKAPPA (Tumkur): Clerks shall collect the “Aye” and You should see that no manipulation “ No” slips and bring them to the is there. 127 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission (Repeal) Bill 1 7 .3 7 hra. Chand Ram, Shri Chandan Singh, Shri Division took place s Chandra Shekhar, Shri AYES Chandra Shekhar Singh, Shri Chandrapal Singh, Shri Abdul Lateef, Shri Chandravati, Shrimati Advani, Shri L. K. Charan Narzary, Shri Aghan Singh, Shri Chatterjee, Shri Pranab Agrawal, Shri Satish Chaturbhuj, Shri Ahmed Shri Halimuddin Chaturvedi, Shri Shambhu Nath Ahuja, Shri Subhash Chaudhary, Shri Motibhai R. Alhaj, Shri M. A. Hannan Chaudhry, Shri Ishwar Amat, Shri D. Chaudhuri, Shri Tridib Amin, Prof. R. K. Chauhan, Shri Bega Ram Anbalagan, Shri P. Chauhan, Shri Nawab Singh Ansari, Shri Faquir Ali Chaurasia, Shri Shivdayal Singh Argal Shri Chhabiram Chavda. Shri K. S. Arif Beg, Shri Chhetri, Shri C. B. Arunachalam, Shri V. Chowhan, Shri Bharat Singh Asaithambi. Shri A. V. P. Chunder, Dr. Pratap Chandra Asokaraj, Shri A. Dandavate, Prof. Madhu Asthana, Shri K. B. Danwe, Shri Pundalik Hari Bagaitkar, Shri Sadashiv Das, Shri R. P. Bagri, Shri Mani Ram Das, Shri S. S. Bahuguna, Shri H. N. Dave, Shri Anant Bahuguna, Shrimati Kamala Dawn, Shri Raj Krishna Bal, Shri Pradyumna Deo, Shri P. K. Balak Ram, Shri Desai, Shri Morarji Balbir Singh, Chowdhry Deshmukh, Shri Nanaji Baldev Prakash, Dr. Deshmukh, Shri Ram Prasad Baleshwar Dayal, Shri Dhandayuthapani. Shri V. Barakataki, Shrimati Renuka Devi Dhara, Shri Sushil Kumar Barman. Shri Palas Dharia, Shri Mohan Barnala, Shri Surjit Singh Dhillon, Shri Iqbal Singh Barrow, Shri A. E. T. Dhurve, Shri Shyam Lai Basappa, Shri Kondaji Digvijay Narain Singh, Shri Bateshwar Hemram, Shri Dinesh Singh, Shri Berwa, Shri Ram Kanwar Durga Chand, Shri Bhabhda, Shri Harishanker Dutt, Shri Asoke Krishna Bhagat, Shri Ganpat Hiralal Fernandes, Shri George Bhagat Ram. Shri Ganga Bhakt Singh, Shri Bhai Mahavir, Dr. Ganga Singh, Shri Bhandari, Shri Sunder Singh Gattani, Shri R. D. Bhanu Pratap Singh, Shri Gawai, Shri D. G. Bhanwar, Shri Bhagirath Ghoshal, Shri Sudhir Bharat Bhushan, Shri Godara, Ch. Hari Ram Makkasar Bhattacharya, Shri Dinen Gore, Shrimati Mrinal Bhattacharya, Shri G. C. Goswami, Shrimati Bibha Ghosh Bhattacharaya, Shri Shyamaprasanna Gounder, Shri Venugopal Birendra Prasad, Shri Govindjiwala, Shri Parmanand Borole, Shri Yashwant Gowda, Shri S. Nanjesha Bosu, Shri Jyotirmoy Gowda, Shri U. K. Lakshm*na Brij Raj Singh. Shri Goyal, Shri Krishna Kumar Burande, Shri Gangadhar Appa Guha, Shri Samar Chakraborty, Shri Amar Prosad Gulshan. Shri Dhanna Singh Chakravarty, Prof. Dilip Gupta, Shri Kanwar Lai 129 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900(SAKA) Commission 130 (Repeal) Bill Gupta, Shri Ram Lakhan Prasad Kunjachen, Shri P. K. Gupta, Shri Shyam Sunder Kureel, Shri Jwala Prasad Haider, Shri Krishna Chandra Kureel, Shri R. L. Harikesh Bahadur, Shri Kushwaha, Shri Ram Naresh Hazari, Shri Ram Sewak Lahanu Shidava Kom, Shri Hedge, Shri Ramakrishna Lakhan Singh, Shri Heera Bhai, Shri Lakshmanan, Shri G. Hukam Ram, Shri Lai, Shri S. S. Inder Singh, Shri Lalji Bhai, Shri Jadhav, Shri Pandurang Dharmaji Lalu Prasad, Shri Jagannathan, Shri S. Lather, Shri Mohinder Singh Jagbir Singh, Shri Limaye, Shri Madhu Jagjivan Ram, Shri Lyngdoh, Shri Hopingstone Jain, Shri Dharamchand Machhand, Shri Raghubir Singh Jain, Shri Kacharulal Hemraj Mahala, Shri K. L. Jain, Shri Kalyan Mahale, Shri Hari Shankar Jain, Shri Nirmal Chandra Mahamaya Prasad Singh, Shri Jaiswal, Shri Anant Ram Mahanti, Shri Bhairab Chandra Jamuna Devi, Shrimati Mahata, Shri C. R, Jasotia, Shri Baldev Singh Mahi Lai, Shri Jethmalani, Shri Ram Mniti, Shrimati Abha Jha, Shri Shiv Chandra Majhi, Shri Dhaneshwar Joarder, Shri Dinesh Chandra Malhotra, Shri Vijay Kumar Joshi, Shri Jagannath Rao Malik. Shri Mukhtiar Singh Joshi, Dr. Murli Manohar Mallick, Shri Hare Krushna Kadershah, Shri M. Mallick, Shri Ramchandra Kakade, Shri Sambhaji Rao Mandal, Shri B. P. Kakati, Shri Robin Mnndnl. Shri Dhanik Lai Kaldate, Dr. Bapu Mandal, Shri Mukunda Kamath, Shri Hari Vishnu Mangal Deo, Shri Kamble, Shri B. C. Mankar. Shri Laxman Rao Kapoor, Shri L. L. Manohar Lai, Shri Kar, Shri Sarat Mathur, Shri Jagdish Prasad Kasar, Shri Amrut Mathur, £>hri Jagdish Prasad Kaushik, Shri Purushottam Mayathevar, Shri K. Kesharwani, Shri N. P. Meerza. Shri Syed Kazim Ali Khalsa, Shri Basant Singh Mehta, Shri PrasannbhQi Khan, Shri Ghayoor Ali Menon, Shri Viswanatha Khan, Shri Ghulam Mohammad Mhaisekar, Shri Govindrao Ramchan­ Khan, Shri Kunwar Mahmud Ali dra Khan, Shri Mahmood Hasan Mhalgi, Shri R. K. Khan. Shri Mohd. Samsul Hasan Miri. Shri Govindram Khrime, Shri Rinching Khandu Mishra, Shri Janeshwar Khobragade, Shri B. D. Mishra. Shri Kalraj Khyoma Lotha, Shri Mishra, Shri Shyamnandan Kishore Lai, Shri Modak, Shri Bijoy Kisku, Shri Jadunath Mody, Shri Piloo Kolanthaivelu, Shri R. Mohan Bhaiya, Shri Kollur, Shri M. L. Mohanarangan, Shri R. Kotrashetti, Shri A. K. Mohanty, Shri Surendra Kripalani, Shri Krishna Mohd. Hayat Ali, Shri Krishna Kant, Shri Mohinder Kaur, Shrimati Krishna. Shri M. R. Mondal, Dr. Bijoy Krishnan, Shri E. R. Morarka, Shri R. R. Kumari Anantham, Shri Mrityunjay Prasad, Shri Kundu, Shri Samarendra Mukherjee, Shrimati Kanak 131 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission (Repeal) Bill Mukherjee, Shri Samar Prem Manohar, Shri Multan Singh, Chaudhary Raghavendra Singh, Shri Munda, Shri Govinda Raghavji, Shri Munda, Shri Karia Raghbir Singh, Shri Munusamy, Shri V. P. Raghu Ramaiah, Shri K. Murmu, Father Anthony Rahi, Shri Ram Lai Murugesan, Shri A. Rai, Shri Gauri Shankar Muthu, Dr. (Shrimati) Sathiavani Rai, Shri, Narmada Prasad Nahar, Shri Bijoy Singh Rai, Shri Shiv Ram Naidu, Shri N. P. Chengalraya Raj Keshar Singh, Shri Narendra Singh, Shri Raj Narain, Shri Nathi Singh, Shri Rajan, Shri Pattiam Nathu Singh, Shri Rajda, Shri Ratansinh Nathwani, Shri Narendra P. Rajender Kaur Shrimati Nayak, Shri Laxminarayan Raju, Shri K. A. Nayar, Dr. Sushila Rakesh, Shri R. N. Negi. Shri T. S. Ram, Shri R. D. Nigam, Shri Ladli Mohan Ram Charan, Shri Onkar Singh, Shri Ram Deo Singh, Shri Oraon, Shri Lalu Ram Dhan, Shri Oza, Shri Ghanshyambhai Ram Gopal Singh, Chaudhury Pajanor, Shri A. Bala Ram Kinkar, Shri Pandey. Shri Ambika Prasad Ram Kishan, Shri Pandeya, Dr. Laxminarayan Ram Murti, Shri Paraste, Shri Dalpat Singh Ram Sagar, Shri Parbhu Singh, Shri Ramachandran Shri P. Parikh, Prof. Ramlal Ramalingam, Shri P. S. Parmai Lai, Shri Ramamurti, Shri P. Parmar, Natwarlal B. Ramapati Singh, Shri Parthasarthy, Shri P. Ramasamy, Shri S. Parulekar, Shri Bapusaheb Ramdas Singh, Shri Pa swan. Shri Ram Vilas Rameshwar Singh. Shri Patel, Shri Dharamsinghbhai Ramji Singh, Dr. Patel, Shri H-M. Ramjiwan Singh, Shri Patel, Km. Maniben Vallabhbhai Ramoowalia, Shri Balwant Singh Patel, Shri Manubhai Motilal Ranganathan. Shri S. Patel, Shri Meetha Lai Rangnekar, Shrimati Ahilya P. Patel, Shri Narinbhai N. Ranjit Singh, Shri Putidar, Shri Rameshwar Rao, Shri Jagannath Pafil. Shri S. D. Rasheed Masood, Shri Pathak, Shri Ananda Rathor. Dr. Bhagwan Dass Patnaik, Shri Biju Ravindra Pratap Singh, Shri Patnaik, Shri Sivaji Ray, Shri Rabi Patoanayak, Shri B. C. Razack, Shrimati Noorjahan Patwary, Shri H. L. Reddy, Shri B. Satyanarayan Periasamy. Dr. P. V. Reddy, Shri R. Narasimha Pertin, Shri Bakin Rehman, Shri P. Phirangi Prasad. Shri Radrigues, Shri Rudolph PipU. Shri Mohan Lai Roy, Dr. Saradish Poddnr. Shri R. K. Saeed Murtaza, Shri Prndhan. Shri Aroar Roy Saha, Shri A. K. Prndhaij, Shri Gananath Saha. Shri Gadadhar Pradhan, Shri Pabitra Mohan Sahoo. Shri Ainthu Sai, Shri Larang Pradhan, Shri Patitpaban Sai, Shri Narhari Prasad Sukhdeo Prakash. Shri K. Saini, Shri Manohar Lai 133 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission (Repeal) Bill Saksena, Prof. Shibban Lai Somani, Shri S. S. Samad, Shri Golandaz Mohammad- Somasundaram, Shri S. D. hussain, A. Sujan Singh, Shri Samantasinhera, Shri Padmacharan Sukhendra Singh, Shri Sanyal, Shri Sasankasekhar Suman, Ramji Lai Saran, Shri Daulat Ram Suman, Shri Surendra Jha Sarangi, Shri R. P. Suraj Bhan, Shri Sarda, Shri S. K. Surendra Bikram, Shri Sardar, Shri Mahendra Narayan Surendra Mohan, Shri Staring, Shri Leonard Soloman Surya Narayan Singh, Shri Sarkar, Shri Shakti Kumar Swamy, Dr. Subramaniam Sarsonia, Shri Shiv Narain Swatantra, Shri Jagannath Prasad Sarup Singh, Dr. Syed Nizamuddin. Shri Satpathy, Shri Devendrn Syed, Shahedullah, Shri Satya Deo Singh, Shri Tulwandi, Shri Jagdev Singh Sayian Wala, Shri Mohinder Singh Tej Pralap Singh, Shri Scindia, Shrimati Vijaya Raje Thiagarajan, Shri P. Sen, Shri Prafulla Chandra Tirkey. Shri Pius Sen. Shri Robin Tiwary, Shri Brij Bhusan Sezhiyan. Shri Era Tiwary, Shri D. N. Shah, Shri D. P. Tiwary, Shri Madan Shah, Shri Surath Bahadur Tiwary, Shri Rama N«nd Shah, Shri Viren J. Tohra. Shri G. S. Shaiza. Shrimati Rano M. Tompok Singh, Shri Ng. Shakya, Shri Daya Ram Tripathi, Shri Madhav Prasad Shakya. Shri Mahadeepak Singh Tripathi, Shri Ram Prakash Shanti Bhushan, Shri Tur, Shri Mohan Singh Shanti Devi, Shrimati Ugrasen, Shri Sharma. Shri Ajit Kumar Vaghela. Shri Shankersinhji Sharma, Shri Jasannalh Vaishampayen, Shri S. K. Sharma. Shri Rajendra Kumar Vajpayee, Shri Atal Bihari Sharma. Shri Yagya Dutt Varma, Shri Bhagw.iti Charan Shastri. Shri Bhanu Kumar Verma, Shri Mahadeo Prasad Shastri. Shri Ram Dhari Varma. Shri Ravindra Shastri. Shri Y. P. VisMit. Shri Dharam Vir Sheikh. Shri Abdul Rehman Venki. Shri V. Sheo Narain, Shri Verma, Shri Brij Lai Sher Singh. Prof. Verma. Shri Chandra Deo Prasad Sheth, Shri Vinodbhai B. Verma. Shri Hargovind Shiv Sampati Ram. Shri Verma. Shri Fhool Chand Shiva Nandan Singh, Shri Verma, Shri R. L. P. Shrikrishna Singh, Shri Verma. Shri Raghunath Singh Shukla, Shri Chimanbhai H; Verma, Shri Sukhdeo Prasad Shukla. Shri Madan Lai Visvanathan. Shri C. N. Siddhu, Dr. M. M. S. Warjri, Shri Alexander Sikandar Bakht, Shri Yadav. Shri Gyaneshwar Prasad Singh, Dr. B. N. Yadav, Shri Jagdambi Prasad Singh. Shri J. K. P. N. Yadav. Shri Hukmdeo Narain Singha. Shri Sachindralal Yadav, Shri Narsingh Sinha, Dr. Ram Kripal Yadav. Shri Ramji Lai Sinha. Shri C. M. Yadav. Shri Sharad Sinha, Shri H. L. P. Yadav. Shri Vinayak Prasad Yadava. Shri Roop Nath Singh Sinha. Shri Pumanarayan Yadvendra Dutt. Shri Sinha, Shri Satyendra Narain Yuvraj. Shri Somani. Shri Roop Lai Zulflquarullah, Shrf 135 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 136 (Repeal) Bill NOES Gadgil, Shri Vithai Ghose, Shri Sankar Adivarekar, Shrimati Sushila Shankar Gill, Shri Raghbir Singh Ahsanjafri, Shri Gade, Shri Santoshrao Alagesan, Shri O. V. Gogoi, Shri Tarun Alva, Shrimati Margaret Gomango, Shri Giridhar Amarjit Kaur, Shrimati Gopal, Shri K. Amla, Shri Tirath Ram Goswami Shri Dinesh Anandam, Shri M. Gotkhinde, Shri Annasaheb Anjiah, Shri T. Gupta, Shri Bhupesh Antulay, Shri A. R. Gupta, Shri Gurudev Arif. Shri Mohammed Usman Hamida Habibullah, Shrimati Arunachalam, Shri M. Hande, Shri V. G. Austin, Dr. Henry Hansda, Shri Phanindra Nath Avergoankar, Shri R. D. Jagtap Ibrahim Kalaniya, Shri Aziza Imam, Shrimati Jaffer Sharief, Shri C. K. Balakrishnaiah, Shri T. Jawade, Shri Shridharrao, N. Banerjee, Shri Jaharla] Jeyalakshmi, Shrimati V. Bansi Lai, Shri Jha, Shri Kamalnath Barman, Shri Prasenjit Joshi, Shri Jagdish Barua, Shri Bedabrata Joshi, Shri Krishna Nand Besavaraj, Shri H. R. Joshi, Shrimati Kumudben Basheer, Shri T. Manishankar Bhagwan Din, Shri Kadam, Shri B. P. Bheeshma Dev, Shri M. Kalyanasundaram, Shri M. Bhim Raj, Shri Kamakshaiah, Shri D. Bhishma Narain Singh, Shri Kamble, Prof. N. M. Bonde, Shri Nanasahib KandanapaU, Shri Ramachandran Borooah, Shri D. K. Karan Singh, Dr. Bose, Shrimati Pratima Kesri, Shri Sitaram Burman, Shri Bir Chandra Deb Khan, Shri F. M. Burman, Shri Kirit Bikram Deb Khan. Shri Khurshed Alam Chandrappan. Shri C. K. Khan, Shri Maqsood Ali Chavan, Shri Y. B. Khan, Shrimati Ushi Chavan, Shrimati P. Kharparde, Shrimati Saroj Chettre. Shri K. B. Kidwai, Shrimati Mohsina Chikkalingaiah, Shri K. Kodiyan, Shri P. K. Choudhury, Shrimati Rashida Haque Kolur, Shri Rajshekhar Dabhi, Shri Ajitsinh Kosalram, Shri K. T. Damani, Shri s* R. Krishnan, Shri G. J. Das, Shri Bipinpal Krishnappa, Shri M. V. Dasappa, Shri Tulsidas Kulkarni, Shri A. G. Deo. Shri V. Kishore Chandra S. Kumaran, Shri S. Desai. Shri Dajiba Kunhambu, Shri K. Desai. Shri Hitendra Kureel, Shri Piare Lall Desai, Shri R. M. Lakkappa, Shri K. Deshmukh, Shri Bapuraoji Marotraoji Lakshminarayanan, Shri M. R. Deshmukh, Shri Sheshrao A. Laskar, Shri Nihar Devarajan, Shri B. Lokesh Chandra, Dr. Dhabe, Shri S. W. Madhavan, Shri K. K. Dhondge, Shri Keshavrao Mahapatro, Shri Lakshmana Dinesh Chandra. Shri Swami Mahida, Shri Harisinh Bhagubava Doley, Shri L. K. Mainmoona Sultan, Shrimati Dutt, Dr. V. P. Mallikarjun. Shri Dwivedi, Shri Devendra Nath Mane. Shri Rajaram Shankarrao Faleiro, Shri Eduardo Manhar, Shri Bhagatram 137 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 138 (Repeal) Bill M aragatham Chandrashekhar, Reddy, Shri G. S. Shrimati Reddy, Shri K. Brahmananda Maurya, Shri Buddha Priya Reddy, Shri K. V. Raghunatha Meduri, Shri Nageswara Rao Qeddy, Shri K. Obal Mehrotra, Shri Prakash Reddy, Shri K. Vijaya Bhaskara Menon, Shrimati Leela Damodara Reddy, Shri Mulka Govinda Mirdha, Shri Nathuram Reddy, Shri P. Bayappa Mishra, Shri Gargi Shankar Rathawa, Shri Amersinh Mishra, Shri Mahendra Mohan Roshan Lai, Shri Mittal, Shri Sat Paul Roy, Shri A. K. Mohammad R'ahmatullah, Shri Roy, Shri Saugata Mondal, Shri Ahmad Hossain Sahu, Shri Santosh Kumar Moopanar, Shri G. K. Salve, Shri N. K. P. Mukherjee, Shri Pranab Sathe, Shri Vasant. Mukhopadhyay, Shrimati Purabi Sayeed, Shri P. M. Murthy, Shri K. K. Scato Swu, Shri Murty, Shri M. V. Chandrashekhara Sh anker Dev. Shri Murugaeyan, Shri S. G. Shankaranand, Shri B. Naidu, Shri P. Rajagopal Sharma, Shri A. P. Naik, Shri L. R. Sharma, Shri Kishan'Lal Naik, Shri S. H. Shastri. Shri Bhola Paswan Nair. Shri B. K. Shinde, Shri Annasahib P. Nair, Shri M. N. Govindan Shrangare, Shri T. S. Nanda, Shri Narasingha Prasad Sinha. Shri Indradeep Narayana, Shri K. S. Sisodia. Shri Sawaisingh Pai, Shri T. A. Soni, Shrimati Ambika Pande, Shri Bishambhar Nath Stephen, Shri C. M. Pant, Shri K. C. Sudheeran. Shri V. M. Parvathi Krishnan, Shrimati Sultan Singh, Shri Parvati Devi, Shrimati Suryanarayana. Shri K. Patel, Shri Ahmed M. Swamy, Shri Sidrameshwara Patil, Shri Balasaheb Vikhe Syed Abdul Malik, Shri Patil’ Shri D. B. Thorat, Shri Bhausaheb Patil, Shri Deorao Tilak, Shri Jayant Shridhar Patil, Shri S. B. Totu. Shri Gian Chand Patil, Shri U. S. Triloki Singh, Shri Patil, Shri Vijay Kumar N. Tripathi, Shri Kami a oati Pradhani, Shri K. Unnikrishnan. Shri K. P. Pratibha Singh, Shrimati Venkatasubbaiah, Shri P. Pullaiah, Shri Darur Venkatrao, Shri Chadalavada Qureshi, Shri Mohd. Shaft Veerabhadrappa, Shri K. S. Rai, Shri Kalp Nath Yadav, Shri Ramanand Rajen, Shri K. A. Yadav, Shri Shyamlal Raju, Shri p. V. G. Yogendra Makwana, Shri Raju, Shri V. B. Ramalingam, Shri N. Kudanthai 18.14 hrs. Ramamurthy, Shri K. MR. SPEAKER: Subiect to further Ranga, Shri N. G. check-up, the result of the Division is Rao, Shri Mallikarjuna G. as follows: Rao, Shri P. V. Narasimha Ayes: 439; Noes 208. Rao, Shri Pattabhi Rama Rao, Shrimati B. Radhabai Ananda The motion was adopted. Rao, Shri M. S. Sanjeevi Clause 2----(Definitions) Rao. Shri V. C. Kesava MR. SPEAKER; We take up clause Rath, Shri Ramachandra 2. Mr. Bhupesh Gupta, are you mov­ Ravi, Shri Vayalar ing your amendment No. 7? 139 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 140 (Repeal) Bill SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Yes, Sir. to operate” . Besides this, the point that I made in the morning was that MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Sankar Ghose, the Ordinance has ceased to operate are you moving your amendment No. and, at the consideration stage, we 8? are called upon to consider this Re­ SHRI SANKAR GHOSE: Yes, Sir. peal law. Therefore, my amendment is intended not to put any premium SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I bee to on the said action on the part of the move: Government.

Page 1, for line 8, substitute— I would briefly give my reasons. ‘ (a) “appointed day” means the The Government look the decision t o day when President gives assent to repeal the Banking Service Commis­ the Bill.’ (7) sion Act in April, 1977. A f t e r this, there was a session of Parliament. SHRI SANKAR GHOSE: I beg to The Government could have easily move: come with a Bill to get it passed and the Ordinance repealed. The Govern­ Page 1, line 8,— ment did not take advantage of the for “ the 19th day of September, session which immediately followed. 1977” It waited till the budget session was over. Then, taking advantage of the substitute “the date to be notified recess period, they promulgated a Re­ by the Government after the Act pealing Ordinance in September, 1977. comes into force.” (8) They got the Bill passed in the win­ ter session of the Lok Sabha. But it SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA; My am­ goes to the credit of the Rajya Sabha endment relates to the clause which that it did not allow this kind of a proposes to give retrospective effect to Bill to get through. That is why we the Bill. I do not want to give it re­ are here today. trospective effect. Here, the ‘‘appoint­ ed day” means 19th September. But I would end by only saying that the what I am proposing is that the “ ap­ behaviour of the Government in this pointed day” shall be the day on matter will be endorsed and condon­ which the President gives assent to ed if we do not give this Bill retros­ this Bill. pective effect. On the 19th Septem­ ber, when the Ordinance was promul­ My reason is very simple. In prin­ gated, the office of the Banking Ser­ ciple, I am not in favour of giving a vice Commission in Delhi was forcib­ parliamentary legislation retrospec­ ly locked up. This was not done in tive effect because this is not done. a proper way. It was forcibly lock­ In this case, an Ordinance was issued ed up on the 19th September. 1977 by anti the Ordinance lapsed. The hon. the Government. The employees of Minister in the course of his speech the Banking Service Commission took pointed out that there was no repeal­ exception to this. The Rajya Sabha ing Act, that there was no repealing rejected the Bill and the Ordinance Ordinance and that there was no law expired. The Banking Service came which we were going to repeal. Now, into force, remained in Force. The I find, in one of the amendments pro­ Government did not respect the views posed by the Finance Minister that of the Rajya Sabha and Parliament he has accepted the position and he even though the Act was in force. himself says in his amendment, “Any­ Even then they did not open file thing done or any action taken under office. Several letters were written the Banking Service Commission (Re­ by the Chairman of the Banking Ser­ peal) Ordinance, 1977 which ceased vice Commission to discuss how the 141 Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900 (SAKA) Commission 142 (Repeal) Bill service should Be conducted. In view Sankar Ghose to the vote o f the of the fact that the Ordinance expir­ House.. ed, no letter was replied to by this Government. Therefore, I take this Amendment No. 8 was put and whole thing, even this dictatorial mea­ negatived. sure, even this arbitrary measure is conceived in malice and executed il­ MR. SPEAKER: The question is: legally in total disregard of the fact that Parliament did not approve of it “That Clause 2 stand part 01 the and thal the Ordinance had lapsed. Bill.” Therefore, I say that nothing should The motion was adopted. be condoned. Let this Bill come with the force of the President’s assent. Clause 2 was added to the Bill Then we will see___ (Interruptions) Clauses 3 and 4 were added to the Yes, you are a yes man. Bill. Claus; 5.— -(Repeal and saving) SHRI SANKAR GHOSE: My am­ endment reads: MR. SPEAKER: There is a Govern­ ment Amendment No. 3. Page 1, line 8,— SHRi SAUGATA ROY: I am on a for “ the 19th day of September, point of order. This is a very serious 1977’' point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Uptill now, it was substitute— not serious. I am glad that this is very serious this time. “the date to be notified by the Government after the Act comes SHRI SAUGATA ROY; I am rend­ into force”. ing out Articlc I08(4j of the Consti­ tution. It says: This is necessary. Otherwise, there “ If at the joint sitting of the two will be an anomaly. The effect of the Houses the Bill, with such amend­ amendment the Finance Minister has ments, if any, as are agreed to in brought is that salary will be paid joint sitting, js passed by a majority from the date of the cesser of opera­ of the total number of members of tion of the Ordinance till the date of both Houses present and voting, it assent and no salary before that shall be deemed for the purposes of would be paid. So, there is a contra­ this Constitution f/J have been pass­ diction. If my amendment is accept­ ed by both Houses:” ed, this contradiction will be avoided. “ ___ Provided that at a joint MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Minister, are sitting— you accepting the amendment? (a) if the Bill, having been SHRI H. M. PATEL: No. passed by one House, has not been passed by the other House MR. SPEAKER: Now I shall put with amendments and returned amendment No. 7 moved by Shri to the House in which it origi­ Bhupesh Gupta to the vote of the nated, no amendment shall be House. proposed to the Bill other than such amendments (if any) as Amendment No. 7 was put and are made necessary by the negatived. delay in the passage of the Bill;

MR. SPEAKER: Now I shall put (b) if the Bill has been so amendment No. 8 moved by Shri passed and returned, only such 143 Banking Service MAY 16, 1978 Commission 144 (Repeal) Bill I Shri Saugata Roy] the delay in the passage of the Bill; and hence it is out of order and should amendments as aforesaid shall not be allowed. be proposed to the Bill and such other amendments as are MR. SPEAKER; 1 have considered relevant to the matters with the matter. The amendment in ques­ respect to which the Houses t io n squarely falls under proviso (a) have not agreed;..” to clause (4) of Article 108. The ob­ jection is over-ruled. My point with reference to Article 108(4) (a) is that the operative part SHRI H. M. PATEL: I move the is, “other than such amendments (if amendment standing against my name. any) as are made necessary by the I beg to move: delay in the passage of the Bill.” The amendments which you have re­ “Page 2 — ferred to up till now, are amendments for lines 43 to 47, substitute— which relate to delay in the passage of the Bill. But the Government “Savings. 5(1) Anything done -amendment to clause 5 says; Or any action taken under the Banking Service Commission “Page 2 — (Repeal) Ordinance, 1977 [10 of 1977], which ceased to ope­ for lines 43 to 47, substitute— rate, shall be deemed to have been done or taken under the “ Savings. 5(1) Anything dene corresponding provisions of this or any action taken under the Act. Banking Service Commission (Repeal) Ordinance, 1977 [10 (2) Nothing in this Act shall of 1977], which ceased to ope­ be deemed to affect the right of rate, shall be deemed to have the Chairman of the Banking been done or taken under the Service Commission or of any corresponding provisions of this other person appointed by the Act.” said Commission to receive salary, allowances or other This is all right, according to the benefits, in accordance with the ■Constitution. But then there is part terms and conditions of service (2) of this amendment, which says: applicable to him, for the period from the date of cesser of ope­ (2) Nothing in this Act shall be ration of the said Ordinance till deemed to affect the right of the the date on which this Act re­ Chairman of the Banking Service ceives the assent of the Presi­ Commission of any other person ap­ dent (both days inclusive).” pointed by the said Commission to (3) receive salary, allowances or other benefits, in accordance with the MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Kamble, are terms and conditions of service ap­ you moving the amendment? plicable to him for the period from the date of cesser of operation of SHRI B. C. KAMBLE (Bombay the said Ordinance till the date on South-Central); 1 beg to move: which this Act receives the assent “Page 2,— of the President (both days inclu­ sive) for clause 5, substitute— “Savings.—5. ( 1) Anything My objection to this whole amend­ done or any action taken under ment is that M i8 a substantive amend­ the Banking Service Commis­ ment, and it does not relate only to sion (Repeal) Ordinance, 1977 xAK Banking Service VAISAKHA 26, 1900(SAKA) Commission 146 145 (Repeal) Bill which ceased to operate shall be been done or taken under the deemed to have been done or corresponding provisions of this taken under the corresponding Act. provisions of this Act. (2) Nothing in this Act shall (2) Nothing in this Act shall be deemed to affect the right of be deemed to affect the rig h t of the Chairman of the Banking th e Chairman of the Banking Service Commission or of any Service Commission or of any other person appointed by the other person appointed by the said Commission to receive said Commission to receive salary, allowances or other salary, allowances or other benefits, in accordance with the benefits in accordance with terms and conditions of service terms and conditions of the ser­ applicable to him, for the period vice applicable to him till the from the date of cesser of ope­ period of the ‘appointed day’." ration of the said Ordinance till (9) the date on which this Act re­ ceives the assent of the Presi­ I hope that the hon. Finance Minister dent (both days inclusive)/' will be pleased to accept my amend­ (3) ments, because this is bodily taken up except for the difference that this is The motion was adopted. made more consistent. So far as the operative clause (4) is concerned, about the proceeding as well as the MR. SPEAKER; Next is Mr. Ram­ balance of al] monies, transferring of ble’s amendment. In view of the all properties and their liabilities, the earlier acceptance of this substitute, last date for their validity is the ‘ap­ Mr. Kamble’s amendment becomes pointed date’. Therefore, so far as barred. Now the question is: the claim with regard to the salaries ig concerned, it cannot be made after “That Clause 5, as amended, stand the ‘appointed date’. Therefore, I part of the Bill." have moved this amendment. If the The motion was adopted. hon. Finance Minister is pleased to accept it, then I will be very glad. If Clause 5, as amended, was added to he is no* prepared, 1 will not press It the Bill. at all. Clause 1.— (Short title and Com­ MR. SPEAKER; Now we come to mencement.) clause 5, amendment No. 3, moved by Mr. Patel. Mr. Patel, do you want to SHRI H. M. PATEL; I beg to move: reply? Page 1, line 4,—

SHRI H. M. PATEL: I don’t want for “ 1977” substitute “ 1978” to. (2) MR. SPEAKER: The question is: SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA; I beg to Page 2,— move:

for lines 43 to 47, substitute— Page 1,— “Savings. 5(1) Anything done for lines 5 and 6, substitute— or any action taken under the Banking Service Commission “(2) It shall be deemed to (Repeal) Ordinance, 1977 [10 have comc into force on the day of 1977], which ceased to ope­ when President gives assent to rate, shall be deemed to have the Bill.” (5) 147 Banking Service MAY 10, 1078 Commission 148 (Repeal) BUI ME. SPEAKER: The question is: toric setting of this chamber, I want Page 1, line 4t— to be very brief. I had voted in favour of this Bill last time in the for "1977” substitute “ 1978” (2). Lok Sabha only after getting a firm The motion was adopted. assurance from my esteemed friend, MR. SPEAKER: I will now put the Minister of Finance, that the amendment No. 5 by Shri Bhupesh Janata Government’s policy is, not Gupta to the vote of the House. only not going to be de-nationalising the Bartks but, on the contrary, it will Amendment No. 5 was Put and be going ahead in the direction of negatived. strengthening the purpose of nation­ MR. SPEAKER: The question is: alisation and make it possible for the "That clause 1, as amended, stand underdogs, the socially, economically part of the Bill". and politically under-privileged peo­ ple to have more and more benefits The motion was adopted. out of the banking operations. Be­ Clause 1, as amended, wa8 added to cause I believe him to be sincere, I the Bill. want to take these two minutes to support him. The Enacting Formula In the morning today I was amus­ SHRI H. M. PATEL: I beg to move; ed, if I may put it that way in aH Page 1. line 1,— humility, to find several of my esteem­ for “Twenty-eighth” substitute— ed and dear colleagues on the Opposi­ "Twenty-ninth” (1) tion Benches raising a series of points of order. 1 must thank the Janata MR. SPEAKER; The question is: Party Government for making it Page 1, line 1,— possible for them to raise the points of order because these very friends for “Twenty-eighth” substitute— had been totally silent in July, 1975, “Twenty-ninth’’ ( 1) when this Bill was passed when we The motion was adopted. were absent, not because of our choice; some of us were absent, including the MR. SPEAKER; The question is: hon. Prime Minister and many of his “That the Enacting Formula, as esteemed colleagues in the Cabinet, amended, stand part of the Bill”. because they were whisked away to various places in a very surreptitious manner; and some of us, after oppos­ The motion was adopted. ing the emergency, chose to remain The Enacting Formula, as amended, absent. (Interruptions) was added to the Bill. The title was added to the Bill. SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: It is irre­ levant. SHRI H. M. PATEL: I move.- PROF. P. G. MAVALANKAR: The “That the Bill, as amended, be relevancy is obvious. This Bill was passed’'. passed by the previous Parliament MR. SPEAKER: Motion moved: during the period of emergency, and I want to suggest that the Bill which “That the Bill, as amended, be was passed in July, 1975___ passed”. (Interruptions) PROF. P. G. MAVALANKAR (Gandhinagar); Mr. Speaker, Sir, I PROF. p. G. MAVALANKAR: I am deem it a privilege to speak on this perfectly justified in saying___ occasion c430