Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 24 NOVEMBER 1897

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1652 Pearl-Shell Oronmission. [ASSEMBLY.] Queensland National Bank.

WEDNESDAY, 24 NoVEMBER, 18!17.

The SPEAKER took the chair at 3 o'clock. QUEENSLAND NATIONAL BANK. MOTION 01<' WANT OF CONFIDENCE. Mr. GLASSEY, in moving- In view of the disclosures contained in the report o.l the committee appointed to investigate the affair$ of the Q.ueensland National Bank, no Government of which Sir Thomas Mell wraith, Sir Hugh muir Nelson, or the Hon. A. H. Barlow are members can have the confidence of this House- Baid : Before en! ering upon the diHcussion of this motion, I wish to clear away some mis­ givings which exist in the minds of some persons with regard to the terms of the motion. Some exception has been taken to the motion including the namES of the present Premier, th" Right Hon. Sir Hugh Muir Nelcon, and the Hon. A. H. Barlow, a member of the other House. Some persons would have no objection to sup­ port a motion of this kind, perhaps both morally auct politically, provided the names of those two gentlemen were not included. I may say at once tbat I shculd consider it manifestly unfair t> >ubmit a motion of this character to the House without including those two gentlemen. While I admit that Sir ThomaH Mcllwraith is the most largely cui pflble in connection with the transactions which have been reported upon by the committee appointed to investigate the affairs of the Queens­ land National Bank, I do not think the two Queensland [24 N OVEMBE1l.] National Bank. 1653

gentlemen I have named can be held absolutely Government. He did this without the knowledge free from a knowledge of the guilt of that gentle­ of either Parliament or the country. I regret to man. It therefore appears to the party sitting have to bring in the name of the Chief Justice, on this side of the House that it would be neither but duty compels me, and that duty I will not manly nor courageous to discuss the affairs of a shirk. I shall have to refer in detaii to the very man who is undoubtedly guilty and culpable to a interesting letter which was presented to this very great extent, but who is not here to defend Chamber a few days ago by the Premier, and himself in the same manner as the right hon. which now finds a place on the records of the gentleman now facing me has the opportunity of House. Sir Samuel takes very strong exception doing, and leave out the names of the other two to some remarks made by one of the late direc­ gentlemen mentioned in the motion. Viewing tors during his evidence before the committee the matter horn thJ;>t standpoint, and considering of investigation, and regards those remarks as the whole circumstances of the case, we have come an imputation on the honour of public men. I to the conclusion that it is fair to raise 1;> dis­ fear I shall have to refer in rather strong terms tinct issue as to whether the Premier and his to the supposed honour of public men. During colleague who acted with him in 1893 in in ves­ the whole course of my public life, extending tigating the affairs of the Queensland National over a period of thirty years both in the old Bank should not find a place in this resolution country and here, and during the course of my of condemnation and censure, which 1 hope will reading of public events-and more particularly be carried by the House. It is almost impossible so far as matters of a corrupt character are con­ in the light of the information which is now in cerned-considering our small population and the hands of hon. members, and which has gone slender finances compared with those of older forth to the country in t4e report of the com­ countries, I consider that in no country in the mittee of investigation, that those gentlemen world can we find a parallel to the corruption can be held absolutely guiltless. It is clear which has been disclosed to us in the report of beyond doubt, beyond controversy, that if those the committee which recently investigated the gentlemen had made known in 1893 the true affairs of the Queensland National Bank. I state of affairs as far as the Queensland believe we cannot find a parallel even in National Bank was concerned, the relief legisla­ the most corrupt of the republics of South tion which was then passed-and passed, I America-nor even in Canada or Newfound­ am glad to say, with the aid and assistance land. I shall have to refer to Sir Samuel of members sitting on this side of the House, Griffith's letter, and I shall make a few of course after making an effort to have comments in passing. First and foremost I a further investigation made into the manage­ shall refer to the £600,000 which was borrowed ment of the bank by an independent body­ by the Government, not for the benefit of the would not have passed so easily as it did. If the country, but to assist the Queensland National full knowledge which those gentlemen must Bank when in 1892 it was already tottering to have possessed at that time had been made its fall. I, at least, have never been an enemy known to Parliament and the country, that relief to that institution ; my action last year in con­ legislation would not have been passed iu the nection with the Guarantee Bill clearly demon­ easy and smooth manner it was passed. There­ strated that. I then took the course which my fore, to ask that we should include in this motion conscience demanded I should take, and I can merely the name of Sir Thomas Mcllwraith­ show by documentary evidence that I have who I regret to say is steeped up to the very lips never varied during the last few years in the in corruption-would have been unfair, as the course of conduct I have observed in connection present Premier and his colleague must have had with that institution. I am pleased to see that a full know ledge of that gentleman's position at the bank is now on a firm footing, and that it that time in connection with the Queensland can pursue the even tenor of its way without National Bank. That being so, there was no detriment to any industry in the country, but room for omitting the names of those two hon. for the benefit of t,hose industries which are so gentleman from the motion now before the closely identified with it. Sir S. W. Griffith's House. letter is dated 18th November, 1897, and with Mr. CRoss: Is not one of them a banker of reference to the £600,000 he says- great experience ? The committee say (par. 12)-" The Government came Mr. GLASSEY: Especially, as my hon. friend to their (the hank's) relief by borrowing a sum of the member for Clermont reminds me, as one of £600,000 from the Bank of England. This was on the 20th December, 1892, and it was repaid by the Govern­ them is a banker of great experience. ment to the Bank of England from proceeds of loan in Mr. CRos.s : There are plenty more bankers February and March, 1893. Mr. A. B. Webster ad­ like him in the colonies. mitted in the course of his evidence that the money Mr. GLASSEY: During the course of my was not borrowed by the Government to meet the remarks I shall also be obliged to bring in the interest on the public debt, but that the loan was really name of a gentleman occupying a very exalted negotiated in the interests of the bank." position in this colony. I refer to the present Of course there is no question that it was Chief Justice, who-if I may be pardoned for negotiated in the interests of the bank. It has saying so at this early stage of the debate-can been said by the Chief Justice, and it may be be by no means held guiltless in connection emphasised by the Home Secretary, that the with this matter; and, however painful and money was not paid into the Queenshtnd di$agreeab!e it may be, I feel bound to National Bank, but I shall prove that there refer to him. I had some years of association was sufficient money in the Queensland National with him, and there were terms of friendship Bank to meet all the liabilities of the Govern­ between us. I am glad to have this opportunity ment, and, if that money was spent in other of saying that it was not merely friendship on ways than those in which it should have been my part-I may say it "as almost affection. But leg]timately spent, then the Government was what do we find? That the present Chief seriously in fault in not informing Parliament of Justice, who was the head of the Government in the transaction, and asking the advice of the 1892, knew full well the position in which the Honse as to the course it should pursue. Sir S. Queensland National Bank was placed, and he W. GJiffith goes on- permitted his colleague, the Treasurer, to assist That is to say Mr. A. B. Webster n admits"-surely a singular term to use tor the purpose of making a grave the bank to cany on at that time, knowing that imputation on the honour of public men-that the Go­ it was in an insolvent condition, and that its vernment borrowed £600,000, not for the purpos~ of existence could not be prolonged as a going con­ meeting the intere>t on the debt, but !or the con­ cern without very great financial aid from the venience of the b>;~nk. I have to ask you to make 1654 Queens!and [ASSEMBLY.] National liank, public the following facts, resting not on ::\fr. 'Webster's I shall sl:ow that there would have been a serious "admission" but on my word, corroboratecl by copies cttse ; but I question very much if of the correspondence and t.he telegrams which passed have beeu >0 great in 1892, not­ at the time between the Agent·General (Sir j ames Garrick) and myself, and which you were good enough all that has been said in these cable­ to show me this morning. gran18, a~ was at the time it was floated. Then Then be goes on to relate the variou• circum­ he proceeds- stances in connection with this transaction in The position then wa>; th1s: Uuless the £600,000 were provided by the 1st of Jccnunry-the 2, th of December, detail- I think, was the day on which the intmest payable on In 1897 Sir T. Y.f ellwraith was Treasurer. inscribed stock \vas rBlj_uired to be lodged in the Bank Of course he wa~. He always had a liking for of Englaud-the colony of Queensland would have being Treasurer, and subsequant eyents have become a ddanlter. The colony's bankers asserted, and satisfied me that the assertion was tl'ue, that they were demonRtrated clearly that it was very essential unable to provide the funds from the colony's cvedit that he should be Treasurer. balance, ·what then was to be done P What I did was The SECRETARY l!'OR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : this: ~on the 14th of November 1 telegrn:phed to the Why don't you read his letter as a whole? Agent-General asking him to ascertain whether the Bank of I~nglaud was willing to advance the January Mr. GLASSEY: He contiuues- interest if tbe issue of the loan were deferred till early In 1892 Sir T.:!Yl:cllwi'aith was Colouial Treasurer. On in 1893, the 24th of September formal notice was given by the Th<' bank was practically insolvent. Treasury to the bank that th<; money then standing to On tbe 16th .Sie J ames Garrick replied that the Ba.nk the credit of the Government in London would be of IDngland would advanee £600,000 on 20th December, required to meet the January interest tabout £500,000), to be repaid from the fhst proceeds of the loan, and on (I do not remember actually seeing a copy of t.his letter the 17th I instructed him to make arrangements with till this morning,) the Ba,nk of' Eugland aceordingly, which he did. A most singular thing. I left Brisbane for Thursday Island on the 12th of During the month of October I had several interviews December, and did not, return till after the new year. with Sir r:L\ Moll wraith and Mr. 1J. R. Drury, in which I never had any further direct control of the Treasury, the latter informed us that it was irnpostnblt3 for the and know nothing of any subsequent transactions. bank to find the money, I believed the statement, I wish hon. members to distinctly bear that in which was supported by telegrams from the London mind. board produced by Jelf), and the London board of that Go-vernment Loan Act oll890, and part had been floated ; bank, combined to deceive me, and make me believe but, so far as my memory serves me, it was not }no­ that the bank could not provide the money, when in posed to issue the balance of the loan until1893, the fact they were in a :position to do so. market not being considered favourable, I say that SirS. W. Griffith's clear duty was not I will show that the market was infinitely more to conceal or cover np the true state of affairs if unfavourable afterwards, and will show the real he really believed what tJad been told him. He reason why the loan was not floated in 18fl2 must have known of the ]Jnsition of the bank at instead of 1893. I do not think the real reasons an earlier pe1iod, becauBe the committee in their have been givcm up to the present time. report oaid that in ihe earlier part of 1892 the directors were in a quandary as to how they On the 7th of November Sir T, M:ci!wraith left for should act. Coming now to the borrowing of India, &.'ld l took charge of the 'l'reasury, which I retained nntil you relieved me on the lOth of December. this £600,000, as I have already said, there was abundance of funds in the Treasury; the Go­ That speaks volumes. It not only shows that vernment had provided sufficient funds to meet the present Premier knew the state of affairs in all requirements, providing those funds had been connection with that institution in 1893, but he pro]Jerly used. The committee of investigation knew it when he took charge of the Treasury in say that there was fully £800,000 in the Queensland the latter end of 1892. This is a point I wish to National Bank in London, but they did not make c"ll attention to: Just imagine for a moment any allusion as to what was in the coffers of the bank that the then Treasurer, who was the dominant in Brisbane. I am now going to show that there and controlling force in the then Government, was no necessity to borrow this £600,000. The considering the difficult pobition of the finances Auditor-General, in his report in 1893, says of the colony, and considering that the bank there was no necessity for it, as there was suffi­ could not meet its engagements, as we have been cient in the bank to meet all requirements. told by this letter, taking himself off to India What wns the sum found in the Queensland and leaving Sir S. W. Griffith, whom he con­ National Bank when it suspended payment in sidered sufficiently plastic and pliable, to carry May, 1S93? Various sums have been &tated in out his wishes and desires, and to extricate the the different newspapera, many of which are colony as best he could ! Then he says- incorrect. I now hold the re]Jort of the Auditor­ On the 5th of November, no doubt at Sir T, Men­ wraith's instance, I sent a confidential telegram to b'ir General for the year 1893, and I will give what .Tames Garrick informing him that it would be necessary he s!tys in regard to that matter. In the same to issue the remain~ er of the loan before the end of the year in which the b>tnk suspended, he says in his year, and asking him to consult the Bank of England report- and the Queensland National Bank and advise me by On the 13th May, 1893, tbe date npon which the telegraph. Queenslan& National Bank suspended payment, the net On the llth of November the Agent-General tele­ balance to the credit of the various public accounts in graphed that the bank did not approve of the proposed Brisbane, some 300 in number, amounted to £1,123,717. issue in that j ear, and added reasons which led to the This was increased l>y transfers of various collection conclusi0n that if the issue were then made it would accounts held in brallch offices, and by additions of result in a serious loss to the colony. interest, to £1,193,633 on the 30th of Jnne, 1893. Queensland [24 NovEMBER.] National Banlc. 1655

On that date the total of the Government funds held Mr. MoDoNALD : Why did you refuse to give by that institution, txclusive of the trust accounts, was- it? Balance in Head Office, Brisbane . . • £1,193,633 The PREMIER : I did not, Balance in London Office 748,348 Fixed deposit, Brisbane Mr. McDONALD: You refused to give it to the 500,000 House. £2,441,981 The SPEAKER : Order ! There was sufficient money then to meet all re­ The PREMIER: I nistinctly complied. quirements if the bank had been compelled at that Mr. GLASSEY: Sir Samuel Griffith states in time to do its duty and carry out its agreement his letter he was advised by the Bank of Eng­ with the Go•:ernment; and when the bank did land that it would be unwise and imprudent to not do so it was the clear duty of the Govern­ issue the balance of the loan to meet the demrtnd ment to come to the House and make known on account of interest to which I have referred. the true state of affairs and ask Parliament He says that the colony would have suffered to decide upon the best means of getting over serious loss. That implies that the money the difficulty; and I have no doubt that if an market would have been more favourable in 1893 investigation had taken place then the colony than it was in 1892, and that we would have been woulrl have been much richer to-day, and many able to get money at a reasonable price by of the losses that have been sustained since then waiting. But have facts demonstrated that publicly and privately would not have taken to be so? I think, on the contrary, that facts place. Coming to the specific amount of £600,000, have demonstrated it was not so. And what the Auditor-General says- was the rut! reason for the non-flotation of the The Bank of England advanced the Government on loan at that particular time? The real reason the 17th June, 1892, the sum of £400,000, which was was that there was a general election pending repaid by the sale of Treasury bills in October, 1892. early in 1893. It was common report that I want the House to take particular notice of the bank was then in a shaky condition, and this, because it is a matter t.o which I believe no that if the bank tumbled the Government's rtllusion has yet been made. Then he says- prospect of gettii_Ig a new lease of P<;>wer w'?uld Another advance of £600,000 was obtained from the have been infimtely worse than It possibly Bank of England on the 20th December, 1892, and was repaid from the proceeds of the sale of inscribed stock could have been if they could keep the brtnk in February and )larch, 1893. Both these advances tottering along till after the election. I know were obtained to provide funds for the payment of the very well it was circulated at the time that half-yearly interest, and the latter should not have those representing the side of the House on been required, there being sufficient funds to the credit which I sit-the advanced democrats-were of the Government in London to meet all liabilities, denounced as bank-smashers. The late Sir especially as a draft for £300,000 was sent from Bris­ bane, which, however, was only credited by the bank on Cttarles Lillev and myself were abused in a 3rd January, 1893. scandalous manner when seeking the suffrages I think the Houoe has a right to know from the of the electors of Brisbane. The wires were Prime Minister why this money was not credited pulled and telegrams were sent all over before the 3rd January, 1893, when as a matter Queensland telling r•eople, "Return the Govern­ of fact I have it from the Auditor-General him­ ment to power if you want the financial insti­ self that the receipt for this draft was sent on tutions of the colony to remain intact, as they the 20th December, 1892. are likely to be seriously jeopardised if Sir Charles Lilley and his friend get into power." The HOME SECRETARY : How long was it pay. That is the real reason why that loan was not able after date? floated in 1892; and I wiil show shortly, by Mr. GLASSEY : The mere quibble as to h01v criticisms in the public prints, the movement at long it was payable after date I fancy is an after­ work at that time to defertt Sir Charles Lilley and thought. There w~,s no necessity for the draft the members sitting on this side of the House, according to the Auditor-General. If it was to defeat the Labour party at that particular time, sent it was for some specific purpose-for the and to induce the country to give the hon. gentle­ use and benefit of persons other thrm the men sitting on the other side an opportunity of Government; and it is a most reasonable thing becoming the saviours of the bank and the to ask why it was sent at that particular time, saviours of the country. \Ve have had an oppor­ who used it, and for what purpose during a tunity since of judging how far they managed period of two months? Then there is another to save the bank and to save the country, not­ matter. Who paid the interest on the .£600,000 withstanding the loan which was floated a.nd mentioned by the committee of investigation notwithstanding the large borrowing to whiCh in their report? \V as it paid by the Govern­ I ha,ve already referred. The efforts that were ment, or by the bank? If it was borrowed made at that time by the Press-and I regret to in the interests of the bank, surely it was the have to say this, because most persons know the duty of the bank to pay the interest; if it was value of an untrammelled, an enlightened, and borrowed by the Government in the intereots of an independent Press-particularly in Brisbane, the country, though there might have been no and in a les%r degree throughout the country, necessity at the time, it was the duty of the showed that the Press was neither untrammelled Government to pay the interest ; but I believe nor enlightened, and certainly showed a bias to that up to date there is no specific information my mind that was altogether peculiar. I have concerning this matter. I hope the Treasurer sal.d that I was branded as one of the bank during the course of his reply will be able to smashers, so was my late lamented friend, and give the H••U>e specific information as to why I had to defend myself on the public platform this .£600,000 was borrowed other than that when I sought the suffragps of the electors of contained in Sir Samuel Griffith's letter, and as North Brisbane. I hope I may be pardoned to who paid the interest. for taking this opportunity of referring to these The PREii!IllR: Why did you not accept matters-it is the first I have yet had-for the correspondence I offered you? the purpose of vindicating the position taken up by the party sitting on this side of the Mr. GLASSEY: Unfortunately the corres­ House, and the efforts they have made not only pondence could not be forthcoming in sufficient to purify politics but to put the true state of time, so far as my judgment goes, to meet the case we are now dealing with. our financial affairs before the country. I had to defend myself, as I said, before the electors of The PREMIER : It would not take the Auditor­ North Brisbane, and I will read an extract from General a day to do it. the Brisbane Telegmph of the 21st April, 1893, 1656 Queensland [ASSE11-1BLY.j National Ban/c.

which gives an '1bstract of my speech at the any financial institution. rhey should have refrained Centennial Hall on the previou.< day. I said this from innuendoe:J and insinuations that large sums of with regard to the Labom party- money had b+:\Cll, with Minit'tcrial collusion, used far purposes to which they were never intended to be The Labour party had alfio been charged with applied. attempting to hreak or destroy C'ertain financial institutions in Brisbane, H not in Qucen~,hmd. That All our statmr1<"!1ts have been amply and abso­ charge he emphar,ically and entirely rleni, d. So far as lutely verified, and aho the purposes to which he personally \vas cone'""~rued, he would do nothing, thc:y were in tended to be applied. Then it goes consciously, that would tend in the slightest degree to on- weaken any financial institution that was in our mids1,, But if inqt1iring as to where the people's money W:l,S, It is perfect!} clear that either Mr. Glassey purposely and as to how it was invested, and as to what sort of mislecl his audience on Thursday nlght, or he was in security they had obtained for the money now being ignorance of the ~ystematic attempts of the official spent, tended to weaken financial institutions, then organ of the party he leads to bring about a disastrous there was something groHsly nnd radically w1·ong with monetary crisis. those institutions, anfl it was his intention in a reason­ I will show you also what the Worker says in able manner, R.nd in his place in Parliameut, if he was reply to that. This <]notation goes on- returned, to ask where the people's money was. He H emphatically and entirely ctenif',, that the That was the scand I took in 1893, and although JJabour party are attempting to break or destroy certain I was defeated on that occasion I am glad to financial institutions.'' vre have proved that they are congratulate those of my friends who were "attempting" that diabolical "business. and tbat they are gloating over such succc,-s jn that line h\'3 they have returned at that time on the stand they took achieved. llr. Glassey's disclaimer is not worth a when they were de:: ling with the relief legisla­ straw. Row the question for Xorth Brisbane electors tion to aid and assist this institution. They is: Are these conspir.,tors against the banks of the demanded a searching inquiry. That searching colony, who deny the palpable guilt of their action, tho inquiry, unfortunately, "as not gmnted. The sort of t:·en to help the colony out of its difficulties, to House took for granted the statements made by restore the equilibrium of its financial system, to make its laws and administer its affair.s P Are they entHled the present Premier and the Hon. Mr. Barlow to either the confidence or respect of any single without having that searching inquiry whi

I now willingly leave it to the public to judge between Then the Auditor-General points nut that the the action of the Worh·r and that of the daily Press. net proceeds amounted to £1,014,232 Ss. That 'Jlhe Courier, tempori~ing as usual-- is all that came to the country. So that the I may say here that it 1s not so temporising as it loss to the country was £168,167 12s. en the used to be- floating of that loan, not for the benefit of the suggests that the Government may deem it expedient Government but for the benefit of the Quec,ns­ to advise Parliament to abandon the vantage ground land National Bank and for political purposes­ the Colonial Treasurer occupih as a preferential claim­ ant. Ko doubt that is just what the Government will to cover up and hide certain nefarious trans­ "deem it expedient to advise.'' Parliament, if it actions conducted by a ma.n who was then listens to the advice, will besr,in its c::treer by an act of Prime Minister of the colony. It cost the shameless treachery. The rl'reasurer must not be country at that time £168,000 to assist those allowed to budge an inch from his position as a prefer­ gentlemen to get a new lease of power,, and that ential creditor. gentleman was then very much afrard that a Then in an article published in the same journal new party might get into power who would ma]m on the 27th May, answering evidently some his nefarious transactions known to the pubhc. criticism with regard to the acticn taken by We have been told from time to time that the members on thiB side after the general election loan then raised was obtained for the purpose of in 1893, the editor says this- carrymo- out some public works; I believe the Plainly, then, it is the duty of the Labour party to Home Secretary will say that that was the object insist upon a full and searching inquiry into the whole in floating the loan. But I hold in my hand a of the transactions between the Government and the document which gives an emphatic denial to Queensland Xational Banlc that; which shows that no public work? were That is logical ground, and the true position to paid for cut of that money. Tabl:' 0,, m tf:te have taken up at the time- tables accompanying the Treasurers Fman01al Tlwn on their part the Labour members will don btle?• Statement, which gives the loan exl?enditure be ready to listen to P~ny reasonable proposals brought forward by the Ministry. li'actious opposition at a. time for a period of ten years, shows that m 1892-3 like this will certainly not come from them. They, of the amount 8pent from loan fund on public all men, realise the state of ]Jaralysis into which, through works wa• £326,271, that in the following year no fault of their own, the whole working population of it was £378 077 and that in the year after that the country ilas been thrown, and they will readily help it was £230,120, so that in three years there even }icllwraith to do the square and honest thing, was expended on public 1vorks only £934,468 I am glad to say that the party did do the square from loan fund, which is considerably less than and honest thing by Moll wraith and his party the amount of the loan floated in the early at that time. They did more. They asked at part of 1893. Referring again to the actions that time that a full, searching, absolute, and of Sir Samuel Griffith before he left office, complete inveRtigation should take place into the and to his failure to take Parliament into his affairs of the Queensland National Bank and the confidence with regard to the true state of the Government and their relations between one bank's affairs at that time, I say he knew full another, Unfortunately, as I say, the House well or at any rate he should have known, and the country were too confiding in accepting the 'true state of the affairs of his colleague, the statements of two men who were Ministers Sir Thomas Mcllwraith, as far as the Queens­ of the Crown, sworn ~tt any rate to be loyal to land National Bank was concerned. On one the people, and I presume sworn also to be occasion Sir Samuel Griffith designated the loyal to the truth. The House at that time member who is now addressing this Chamber took the statement of the two Ministers of as the "associate of thieves and forgers." If the Crown, and my friends sitting on this evEr there has come a period in the hiecory of side, being of course in a minority, were out­ the colony when "chickens have come home to voted by the overwhelming numbers on the other roost," so far as Sir Samuel Griffith is concerne~, side. I say that so far as the action of this we have now arrived at that moment. Th1s pal·ty is concerned, prior to the elections and document which I have in my hand reveals a after the elections when they were here as must lamentable state of affairs, and if it does members of the As~embly, we have no cause to not reveal thieves and forgers I do not know regret the course we pursued at that particular what they are. However, I shall not pursue any time. Time has vindicated this party absolutely further this little matter with regard to the and entirely in the eyes of the country with Chief Justice. I regret to have to refer to it at regard to their intentions concerning that great all but I am compelled to do so by a sense of financial institution-that they had no desire or duty to my friends, .and, I may reasonably say, intention to injure it or weaken it in the slightest to my family, whose good name an.d my ow!' I degree. Before I pRss to another suhject I desire to preserve. A man occupymg the h1gh wish to clear up this point with regard position Sir Samuel Griffith held should have to the flotation of the loan in 1893. I have known of these matters; if he did not kn.ow, said that so far as the Government were con­ then his ignorance was guilt of a most serwus cerned there was no necessity to float that character. But I can scarcely acquit him of loan, and, so far as the year 1893 is concerned, not knowing, and if he did know, then I any unbiassed person will r

party anJ its friends in the country. In order Right Hon. Sir H. M. Nelson has some interest. to show who were blamed for the non-success of On 30th May, 1891, it says, speaking of the that loan, Ish .!I re>d Times and other l?apers also great pastoral and collateral industries. would be a dead spoke in the same strain. I leave tlns matter of horse. He would never more expeet to see his the credit of the colony, believing, of course, that principal, and might have to seek his interest on the criticisms to which I have alluded were not bended knees. It may be very bad form on his part, vet'}" well-founded so far as subsequent events but he declines the situation. t'ublic credit, therefore, receives its most serious shock from causes which wne concerned. I shall now deal with the operate to restrict liberty in enterprise-- inrkbtedness of Sir Thomas Mcllwraith, which Well, well! Enterprise! wiil be found on pages 6, 7, and 8 of the report of the committe.~ of investigation. I regret to Mr. DAWSON: Robbery anJ corruption! ha,-e to go into these matters, but circumstances demand it. On page 6 of the report we find the Mr. GLAtiSEY: The herocil of civilisation­ following statement :- ~ome of whom are mentioned in thi8 report! On 30th June, 1896, Sir Thomas )Icllwmith'o in­ Great public benefactors ! i\fen of enterprise ! debtedness to the bank, at head office, and in respect \V e will go on- to all accounts in his owu name, was £251,461. \Ve and to distribute r, sults on a principle that. will ever value the security held against this at £60,700, thus prevent accumulation. There is one item of mournful leaviug an estimated deficiency of £1B0,76l. satisfaction, it is those who are bringing ab1ut this I!1 rom the books of ·tlle bank it would appear tha.t Sir state of things will be the first to feel it, will feel it Thomas is also indebted for the following mining more keenly than any others can, and will1inc1 no way advances, namely :- of d-eliverance other than that of retreat from a eourse )1ount Perry Copper Company, £39,67±, the whole ol of conduct which has only to be pursued long enough at which has been written off as irrecoverable. least to effect their own ruin. The Palmer River Gold-Miumg Company, £16,608, all written off; while on the Ida accounts, for which he What did the Courier say on the 30th May, woulcl also appear to be solely responsible, the actnal and 1891? estimated loss amounts to £15,928. TherG is no cla'rury was his full partner. suffrage with one man one vote. Is not th1s a most lamentable state of things­ Is not this a most deplorable state of a!Iair,,,_ the •rreasurer, and ultimate Premier, becoming that the preaching of one man one vote, and t.h8 the partner of the general manager of the Go­ urging the return of Labour representative• tu vernment bank? There is evidence, although I this Honse, 1hould actually destroy the credit of do not say that it is conclusive evidence, that Queensland and prevent the successful floating Sir Thomas was in partnership with the late of the loan of 1891? Then we have the Darhng general manager in two accounts, and if his own Downs Gazette-a journal in which I believe the word is to be taken for anything-and I presume Queensland [24 NoVEMBER.] National Bank. 1659 we are not to reject his own statement--they Thereafter the comvany's account at Bundaberg grew were partners in the most diabolical transactions from year to year until it was transferred to" Doubtful Debt Account" in December, 1893. But the ~Iount and became couspirators to defraud the people of Perry Copper Company was amalgamated with the this colony. That is the trne state of affairs, Reid's Creek Gold-Jiining Company under the ntigations? If they effected in London, but the new company did not take did escape them, their examination was of a most over the liabilities of the }Iount PerrY Copper Company, perfunctory character, which they allege it was and the overdraft remained. not. But if their examination was not of that \Vhy did they not take it over? BecauBe it was nature, then they must have known the true so bad that the company did not think it worth state of affairs so far as these two persons were while, and the hank actually handed over £10,000 concerned, The committee say on page 7- in addition. \Ye are most reluctant to disclose names, ;.but the I\Ioreover, the bank never received any scrip jn the plea of partnership put forth by Sir Thomas with the new company, and it apparently allowed the .Mount deceased gentleman, who had practical control of the Perry property to pass out of its hands without re­ funds of the bank, placed the tram,.wtions on a different ceiving anything whatever in exchange. Furthl·r, some pbtne from those of other debtors, and compelled us, by considerable time afterwards (in September and October, a sense of duty, although much against our will, to put 1888), two cheques were dr,1wn on the old Mount Perry the full particulars before you. account by Sir Thomas :Yellwraith. The securities held by the bank against advances to Is the Home Secretary aware of that? Sir Thomas have, in common with most Queensland One was for £4,000 and the other for £6,000, and both securities, deprc.ciated much in value. rrhe accumu­ cheques were passed, under instructions from head lated interest on his private account alone amounts to office, to the credit of the new company. It would £27,000; and his attorney, Mr. M. D. ~icEacharn, placed t,hus avpear that not only did the bank gratuitously before ns a statement which shows that in 1885 Sir surrender its property, but that it absolutely made a rr1homas was, if uot in affiuent, at lt--tst in comfortable further free gift of £10.000 to those who took it over, circumstances. If Sir Thomas was merely acting as an agent in this We are of opinion that the lnte ::\lr. Drury was instance, the advantage 1:0ecured for the bank is not interested with Sir Thomas Mcllwraith, at all events, in apparent. the two ventures known as the :Xewcastle Brewery Account and the Adelaide-street Land Account. Out­ Is the Home Secretary satisfied with that? The side of these transactions there is nothing to show that committee did not see what advantage accrued the late :IIr. Drnry was in partnership with Sir Thomas to the hank, and that is sufficimt to confirm the Mcilwraith other than the statement of Sir Thomas statement I made that some of these transactions him&>If. were of a diabolical character. Then on the next page they ~ay- 'The HoME SECRETARY : You must ask Sir T. In regard to the minmg accounts, already specified, Mci!wraith for an explanation of that. Sir Thomas ~Ieiiwmith emphatically asserts that he is in no sense liable for a single penny of the~e advances. Mr. GLASSEY: Mr. Smyth's connection He alleges that he was merely the agent of the bank, wit.h the transaction may be given in his own that he allowed his name to be used for the con­ words, and I wish to draw the attention of the venience of the bank, anfl that he signed cheques on Home Secretary to this matter for a minute- the various accounts, and exercised other ostensible proprietary rights for the some reason. The 'Uount Perry Copper Company stood in mY name. I first heard of it trom Sir Thomas l\IcllwraiLh, who In my judgment the fact of his being an agent said that he and Mr. E. R. Drury had bought the mine, for the bank does not improve the position, but and I and Captain Bennett had one-tenth or one-twelfth, on the contrary makes it worse- an 1 the balance was divided between Sir Thomas and Mr.Drury, He statz:s that, in the course of business, certain mining properties fell into the hands of the bank, and Does not that come into the category of a it was thonght that there would be a better chance of di» bolical transaction? tl.oating these into a large company if they were in his The HOME SECRETARY: I do not see anything name. As a precedent for this he cite" the case ol the diabolical in it. Rainbow Mine in Charters Towers, where he acted ad­ mittedly as the agent of the bank, He asserts that he Mr. GLASSEY: Mr. Smyth says- never received any accounts; that he knew nothing as r put no money in, but drew cheques on the bank. to the limit of the advances; that he was never applied I have no account of them, but drew on Captain to for repayment: that no attempt was ever made to Bennett's instructions. I understand that the mine hold him rP~'~'ponsible; and that he had never been was afterwards floated into a bigger company. Dir advised of any "writings off," which had been effected Thomas did not want the thing in his own name, and without his sanction and without his knowledge~ On it was put into mine, for which I was recouped by one­ tile other hand, if the records of the bank are to be twelfth share. Abont a year afterwards I was very ill relied upon they establish the personal liability of Sir in l\:'Ielbourne, and Sir Thomas sent me a document to Thomas ,\:cnwraith beyond doubt. sign to say that I was only nominally owner of the I think thot is conclusive evidence that there mine. This was iu 1882 or about. . . . . I remem· ber nothing about the account. The was or had been some sort of partnership between bank never troubled me about it. Sir Thomas and Mr. Drury, and that at any rate while Treasurer of this colony Sir Thomas I think I need go no further than that, Now I engaged in some transactions which were of a come to the point whether it was possible for most questionable, and in some cases of a the Right Hon. Sir Ht1gh Nelson and the Hon. diabolical chHracter, if I may use the term. A. H. Barlow, having had tree access to all the documents, private and public, of the institution The HoME SECRE1'ARY: I should like you to in 1893, to escape knowing the full state of give the date when. It is very important. affairs? I think not. If we take their own Mr. GLASSEY: Then take the case of the statements in the House that they had full Mount Perry copper mine. This is what the knowledge, they must have concealed the real committee say- facts and mi~led the legislature, and cannot This property originally stood in the name of the th{'refore be held absolutely blameless, I find Hon. J. C. Smyth. An account was f,penect in February, that the joint indebtedness of Sir T. Mcilwraith 1881, in his name at the head office, styled "J. c. and lVIr. Drury comes to £341,461. I may say Smyth, ~o. 2 Aecount." It began with a transfer of £500 to the credit of the J\Iount Perry Copper Company here in passing that some of those gentlemen at Bundaberg, and other trano;;fers were subsequently did not believe in members of Parliament being made from time to time to the credit of the company's paid for their services. 'l'hough Sir Thomas finally account, until, on 19th February, 1883, the overdraft agreed to payment of members, he was opposed to in Mr. Smyth's name stood at £4,357 l2s. 4d., when it the principle, ans of the ban}{, and solvent, and accordingly Parliament sanctioned a even the confidential books belonging to that institu­ scheme of reconstruction, under which the Govern- tion. ' ment of Queensland was permitted to accept the same terms as the ordinary creditors. Again, we are asked I think we may infer that in a confidential book what would have been the position supposing the would bP found the transactions of Sir ThomaA Colonial Treasurer had not made that statement, and Mciiwraith and Mr. Drury He went on to thereby had not got the consent of Parliament to the say- scheme of reconstruction. I have also had the able assistance of my colleague, That is a most important point. Therefore if the Secretary for Lands, who has had a largo experi· those statements had not been made by the ence previou~ly in banking concerns, and the re;..ult of present PrE>mier and Mr. BarJow, based, as they our investigation is that I am able to report, ns I have said, on a most minute and searching inquiry, already reported to my collr1.gnes, that. in my opinion, with free access to all the securities and private in which my colleague. the ~ecretary for Lands, con­ curs, the assets of the bank, taken at a fair and reason· documents and books, Parliament would not able valuation, and assuming any fair method of have accepted the scheme of reconstruction which realisation, are more than sufficient to pay the passed the House in 1893. debts of the bank to the Government, as well as to the ontsid.e public. [ give that opinion after The PREl>IIEI\: What would have followed most mature and deliberate consideration, and after then? having made myself acquainted nnd become seized of Mr. GLASSEY: The hon. gentleman knows the whole of the facts connected with that bank. Th\s exactly the position I took up last year after we investigation, I can assure the House, has not been per­ got the report of the committee. l certainly do formed in any perfunctory mauuer, but has been one not regret taking up that position, and if we had which enables me to s:ty, and to say with full conviction to go through the whole of the transaction again that I am speal~in6 the truth, that what I have state cl with regard to t.he soundness of the bank is conect. It -notwithstanding that some of my friends and may be called pTesumption on my part to ask tl1e House myself differed most seriously over these matters, to talm my verdict upon this question; but at the same and the friendship of years has been broken time I do not se<'l how otherwise the maMer could be through it-I would ta\<:e the very same arrived at. r.I'he House is decidedly entitlec~ to ask for line of action with regard to that institution. that information, und the Government as a whole were not able to arrive at any better meth11d of investigation But I deeply regret that the head of the than the one which we have adopted. I therefore ask Government and his colleague, who were at the the House to accept my opinion upon the matter. time entrusted with that most important and Then the Hon. A. H. Barlow said- almost secret work should have considered it The Treasurer and myself were quite disinterr"ltecl desirable, at any rate, to conceal that wJ,ich they persons in the matter. knew to be the fact so far as Sir T. Mciiwraith I believe they were entirely disinterested so far as and Mr. Drury were concerned. Had those obtaining any monetary assistance directly or matters been made known to Parliament un· indirectly. Then he went on to say- doubtedly a different state of affairs would have I have had some experience in banking life, and some existed in Queensland to what we have experi­ in investigating banking accounts. I can endor:se what enced. has been said by the Treasurer. . . . It is im­ The PREMIER: That is pure assumption on possible that the affairs of a great institution like the your part. Queensland Xational Bank could be examined even by Mr. GLASSEY: I do not think it is an a small committee of this House, and therefore the House must-if I may use the expression-be asked to ass>~mption. I think it is a perfectly correct take ouT word. Hon. members must have first satjsfied inference. A good deal has bepn said with them~e~ves whether we are people capable of forming regard to the directors. The directors plead an op1n10n on the matter, and whether, when we have ignorance ; they pretend to be very innocent. formed an opinion, we will express an honest opinion. 'vVe have always regarded them as men of abijit:y, I am sure they am both capable of examining of great experience, and of integrity. That 1s these matters and forming an opinion; but if the estimate in which th8y have been held in they formed an opinion on wrong evidence their this city and in the colony generally for a number opinion goes for little ; an1l if they made state­ of years. What do we find? We find a state of ments upon wrong evidence they are guilty of a affairs which, to say the least, is discreditable dereliction of duty which is unpardonable and to those gentlemen. Three of them are !]:l~n Queensland [24 NovEMBER.] National Bank. 1661 in high places, one being no less a personage The HoME SECRETARY: I want to know what than the President of the Legislative Council you complain of. and Lieutenant-Governor of the colony. Mr. GLASSEY: Is the hon. gentleman really The SPEAKER : Order ! I think the hon. so simple as to asl~ such a question as Lha~? \Vhat member should confine himself to the terms of we complain of rs that many transactwnB of a his motion. Of course he will understand that questionable character took place years ago in I do not wish in any way to stifle aebate, but to connection with the Queensland National Bank; give him every opportunity of proving up to the that the bank had to close its doors in conse­ hilt any charge he makes against the Govern­ seq uence of the nef:•riou" transactions of J?ersons ment. At the same time, under this motion, it in high !Jlaces, in 1893 ; that accounts m that is very desirable that the debate should bP con­ institution were withheld by those in authority, fined entirely to the substance of the motion. and in consequence of that the first scheme of The directors should not be brought in. This is reconstruction broke down and a new scheme had a motion, not to consider the report a; a whole, to be proposed laot year. Tbat is what we com­ but simply to consider it in so far as it deals plain of. Is thel_IomcS~cr~t ':Y •.osi~plcastoha:'e with members of the Government. I think the to ask the q nest!On, or IS his srmpl!crty assumed m hon. member will see that that is the position, an endeavunr to throw me off the track? I am and I trust he will confine himself to that not to he thro\\ n off the track. \Ve have evidenee question. that fictitious dividends have been paid to the Mr. GLASSEY: My motion refers to "the extent of over £300,000 within the last few yeai'. disclosures contained in the mport of the com­ We have evidence of perwns putting their hands mittee," and I shall take the liberty of examin­ into the public rmrse and extracting money w hi eh ing any and every detail of that report which I did not belong to them. 'rh at is the state of "'ffairs think is of value to me. to which I referred, and which paralysed in­ The SPEAKER : The hon. member is wrong. duotry and injured Queensland to a considerable extent and which has shaken the confidence of He can only use that document in so far as the 0 names mentioned in this motion are concerned. the pe )ple, n,Jt only in commercial men _but in He mu&t see that the action of the directors is leading politicians of the colony. I Will . not not before the House. That can only be done say anyGhing further with regard to the dir~c­ by a motion brought forward in the prescribed tors, except that I ha' e had an opportumty way. This is a motion of censure on the Govern­ of re1ding some of the remarks they have them­ ment, not on the action of the directors. Of se! ves made, which do not put them in such a course, if the hon. member can apply what he simple light as they are pnt in by t!Je gentlemen wishes to say to the motion he is perfectly who made the in vestig~uion. I have some justified m doing so, but the action of the balance-sheets of the Q11t·ensland National Bank directors is not really open to consideration on extending over a number of yetid he would uot go into t!H.tt queotion, but he is transactions between Sir T. Mcll wraith a'ld the d::ing so. I must ask him not to introduce false late manager, and have concealed them from the it-sue~, confusing the cem;ure of the G11vernment gentlemen who investigated the position of the with the censure of the directoro. He must keep bank in that year. I by no means say that they to the question before the House. did, because the Premier and Mr. Barlow say Mr. G LASSEY: I hc.,,ve no desire to introduce distinctly that they gave those matters a most extraneouB matter. I ehall confine myself as close aud exhaust,ive examination, and had full closely as possible to the motion, and wiilnot access to the books and securities. add more than a few words to what I have The PREMIER: Doe• not the report say that already oaicl. There eonuot be two opinions with there is no record in the books of the bank on r~~pect to the culpability of Sir Thoma·' Mcil­ the subject? wraith. That is e8taUiohed beyond a doubt. I Mr. tlLASSEY: The directors of the bank, I think there cannot be any doubt whatever that say, must have failed in their duty if they did the t1 ue state of affairs connected with Sir not aid and assist those two gentlemen in their Thomas Ji!Icilwl'ai:h's transactions with the late investigation dudng that year, and if they did manag·er of the ~neunsland National Bank, Mr. not do so the Government will be acting ex­ Drury, wat:) known to the cor~nnit... tee of inve~ti~ tremely foolishly and will not be performing gationin1893, clony paying its debt tu everybody, but that is a thoughtful outside, but there is also a the converse of that would have resulted if thoughtless outside. The Government have they had pursued the P"licy uf hon. members acted in this m •.tter carefully, measuring what opposite. The Queensland National Bank would was their duty to the community. The report have been shut up, and the colony would have which was pre~ented to the House disclosed cer­ been repudiating its Iiahility to its creditors. tain circumstanc, s in connec:ion with ihe bank The que,tion is not whsct the hon. member ur his and its affairs, and by way of infonnation I may friends have done, but whether the Government tell hon, members that the Government con­ have done what they should have done. And sidered that certain meoterial in that report here I may say that 1 hope that this discussion, should he plac.d before their l• gal adviser in although it must necessarily be in some respects order to ase"rtain whether or not what was there of a party character, will be free from acrimony. mentioned was an offence against the laws of The hon. member who moved the motion has the land. In a matter of this importance they started fairly in that spirit, as far as bis observa­ thought that the proper thing to do was to tions are concerned. I do not agre<.o "ith many collt·ct all the facts and docum."nts reh,ting to of his conclusions. I have followed many of his it, including this report, and take the ad vice statements, and I shall probably be able to sift of the most learned counsel of )lnstralia, not some of the many ''ifs" of those statements from llecessarily counsel "-'Sociated with the colony of the facts. It will be my duty to inform the House Queensland. That action the Government took wbat the Government have done in this matter at once ; that is the action any honest Govern­ since the time the report was first asked for. If ment would take, and they must take care not to legislatiun is introduced which the opposite side act hastily and unjustly to anybody in a matter of desired, it is alleged that they !m ve forced the this kind. Hon. members must remember that no Government to introducEl it, and if legislation special duty is cast upon the Government in this is not snch as they desire they say the Govern­ matter; that ev"ry person financially affected ment are responsible for it. Governments have by the action of the bank has both a civil remedy always to submit to such criticisms. It has been and the right to institute criminal proceedings. alleged with regard to this report that the hand Certain persons have lately been elected to of the Government was forced, but I say that the board of management, not only as trustees each Government since 1890 has had as much for the shareholders, but also as directors cause for anxiety in connection with the Queens­ for the Government, and there is a duty cast land National Bank as hon. members opposite- upon them as well as upon the Government. Queensland - [24 NOVEMBER,] National Ban/c. 1663

If there was not one farthing in this bank person whose name happens to be on the share belonging to the Government, who would take register of a mining company is neces,•arily a action? The persons affecied by the action of partner in that compally. There is much in the the bank. Probably it would be the duty of report which is out.,ide that altogether, but someone to initiate action, and the full powers of there is much in the report whwh, to my mind as the law would be brought into opemtion to assist a lawyer, satisfies me that a partnership, as such those persons to obtain justice, but the initiation may be, and mtty have bc,en-and the report says in these things necessarily and naturally comes was--a co~uwner,·:hip, not necef.i),trily the re::;ult of from those who are primarily affected. Now, I an agreement, bnt the result of a transfer. I have do not for one moment say that the Government been a eo-owner with rnany persons in gold mines, are not affected. 'fhey are affected in this way­ never having been consulted a' to the partner­ that their money is in the bank just in the same ship, but, having purchased my inter,,,t, 1 ha\ e manner as the money of private individuals is fonnd myself in co·ownership with other persons, there; but it is Rufficient to assure the House many of whom I have never seen iu my life. So, that the Government, if they are to take action, as far as regards sorne of these minir g h;.tnfl­ have taken steps to proceed advisedly. No lo~s, ac'ions, it does not follow that the term'' partner­ no injury will result even from a delay of a week ship,'' as it is often applied, tneaos such a p:1rtner.. or a month with a view of getting the nece,>ary ship as resulted from agreement. Bui; quite IE·gal advice, especially as our principm the complimentary ptt is the law. I believe I have no authoricy to d<,fend him. A ~;omruittee some people are doubtful about it, but at appointed by t.his House asks us to reserve any rate there remains the fact that in our judgment in regard to cer~,~rin matters. I 1890 Sir 'fhomas :IYici!wraith was a mem­ have gone carefully through those matters, and ber of the Executive Council, and is GO at have rese•·ved my judgment, bot quite out­ the present moment. This report reveals that side them there is snfiicient admitted in the pri'lr to 1890-during the five years in which report of the commi! lee to justify the statement Si" S. W. Griffith was Premier, and when bir 1 uow make. I thiuk I h"vt' now cleared the 'fl>omas Mci!wraith was a private citizen-he ground for action so far as regard• that. Of was CGtmected with and was a custnmer of the course I know that I cannot clear the ground as (clueensland National Bank. Many persons who far as the votes or opinions of hon. members are uuinitiated are under the impression tJhat a opposite are concerned, because I know that 1664 Queensland [ASSEM:BLY.] National Banlc. their stock·in. trade from the first day of their in detail to the person in charge of the Treasury, election consisted of the cry " the Queensland and the hon. member for Toowoomha has National Bank." I should have been glad if supplied me with a wise argument upon that. the hon. member had included myself in his In one of his speeches he drew attention to the motion so that I might share the blame with very great wisdom and obligation there is in those who are attacked, if there is any blame. dealing with financial matters to observe this It is not too late for the hon. member to do rnle. He pointed out that the community is it now, and he will find that I am ready to very liable to panic, to mistrust, and t,, impulse, defend myself, as I am now to defend my col­ and, therefore, if all the actions of the Treasurer leagues who were with me in the Government, were to be divulged to Parliitmentand the country and most of whom are now absent. As I said, or to the Pre,s, hls intentions would be frustrated. this is the hon. member's stock-in-trade. He In consequence of that those immediately out­ was elected on it, and he lives on it. In side the Treasury have only such a general fact, the Labour party live on it; and if once knowledge as other member, of Parliament have, this thing goes from them I do not know and that general knowledge is communicated to what they wiJI rely upon. Their claim is them by official reports, supplemented by docu­ that they have a special mandate to main­ ments which l!lemhers of the Government get tain political purity. I do not care one iota from outside sources. Sometimes now and then, whether the hon. member includes me in his in a dire case of emergency, information is motion or not, because I can show as clean given them by the head of the Government, a record in regard to the Queensland National but those are very exceptional eases, and I can Bank and the action of the Government in safely say that all that other members of th& connection with it as any hon. member opposite. Government knew of the tn.nsactions wh·ich took }Prom the first moment I entered the Government place in 1~92 was that the balance to the credit till the present day I recognised that there was of the Government in the bank was as small as a vortex into which the Government should never it ever had been. That is a faco that can be he dntwn, and I can safely say that we have kept proved. We knew we had done all that we the Government out of that vortex. And, not­ possibly could to keep our balance low because withstanding all that hon. members opposite we had just as much anxiety not to put all our may say, they have not a monopoly of the trust "eggs in one basket" as hon. members have since of the people to look after the interests of the had. The knowledge was communicated to us that colony in connection with this institution or financial institutions, not only in this colony but otherwise. What we found was precisely what in New South Waits, wereawarethattimeswere hon. members opposite found, but which they getting tight, that hard time·o; were coming, that often misrepresent or conceal. We found that money was being withdrawn from one cause. and the policy of both parties in times past had another, and in 1892 the Queens!:tnd Nat10nal been to borrow largdy from the money-lending Bank was beginning to feel the pressure in conse· community in England for the purpose of stimu­ quence of the withdrawals of deJJosits in London. lating the industries _of the colony. One party Banks having their headquarters in New South went well and the other •· en:t better. The hon. 'vV ales invariably begin to make provision for member for 1'oowoomha will be able to give a full repaying money to the Government by calling narrative of how all parties vied with one another upon customers in Queensland, and they wind in getting the most money they could, and they them up irrespective of the injury done to this b.Jth knew that when they got that money there colony by imperilling its industries. Th!'t was nothing else to do with it Lut to put it into course has been adopted more than once, but m the bank, so they put it there and drew the Queensland the position is different. The Go­ interest in the same form as money-lenders did, vernment would not be able to make demands and they knew the hank h~d to pay back the upon customers in the other colonies, but interest by lending the money out to stimulate would have to put the screw upon the pro­ the interests of the colony. They were well ductive industri9R of 'lueensland, and then aware of the system that both parties joined would come the question whether as trustees together to pursue, and in 1890 everybody was for the whole colony it was wiser to leave well aware that although the Government had those industries as they were and carry them borrowed £2,000,000, which they did not spend, on with a view to ultimate success or to the Queensland National Bank had not that screw them up. That was the responsibility. £2,000,000 in gold in their own coffers. If In 1892, when this money had been lent out, they had kept it there they would have shown whenithad been iu vested-a great deal of it in the themselves the worst managers of any financial hon. gentleman's own constituency-the hon. instit11tion in the world, because they would have gentleman thinks that because there was a had to pay interest on it to the Government all b;~.lance to the credit of the bank here and in the same. It must be admitted that it was part England that was obtainable at call. That is of the system of the colony-to borrow money the hon. gentleman's delusion. It was not so that their bank, their agent, the Guvernment obtainable at call, therefore the Government in agent could lend it out to help to make the 1892 had to finance with their bankers to get colony what it is, and they did lend it out, sufficient money to pay the interest due on the and they lent it with the knowledge of the 3lot December. They were moet anxious that people. It was well known from the Auditor­ the balance should be further reduced, and by General's reports year by year that the money every legitimate m'·ans they pnt such pressure was lent out to the people uf the colony and was on their bankers as would without imperilling not kept in coin ; and that brings me back to Queensland enable them to draw nut sufficient the year 1892. At that time the members of the money to pay their obligations without selling a Government were yourself, Mr. Speaker, Mr. loan.· The !Jon. gentleman has pictured to this Byrnes (who is absent), Mr. Unmack, Mr. House a delusion, a will-o'-the-wisp-that the Hodgkinson, Sir S. W. Griffith, and part of loan was floated for no other purpose than to thn time Sir T. Mcilwraith-·but most of the enable Sir T. Mci!wraith to finance. Where? time the last-named was bisent through illness. In Calcutta? Sir T. Mcilwraith went away in In looking after the affairs of the colony we November. manage in department~. The Treasurer does Mr. GLASSEY: I know what for, too. not feel it his duty, nor would any Treasurer be The HOME SECRETARY: At the time Sir wise, to take all or any of his colleagues into T. ::\'[ciJwraith went away from thi~ colony he left consultation in regard to matters of det"il. the payment of that intereRt, as he considered, Affairs in relation to the bank are only known secure, He left the colany under that impression, Queensland [24 NovliMBER.] National Bank. H165 and he was so advised at that time; and I can and the reply was "'Ve do not consider it safely say he did not consider, in his financial advisable." Then the hon. gentleman comes to arrangements, there was the slightest necessity this House and has the effrontery to say that to inform any one of his colleagues with the the Government sold the loan at a loss, and exception of the Premier. The hon. member he turns round and looks for applause to the for Bundaberg is under the deitmion that for gallery. He thinks the statement is going some sinister purpose Sir Samuel Griffith, after forth to the colony that the Government, for the Sir T. Mci!wraith left, entered into a conspiracy purposes of themselves and Sir T. Mcilwrnith, for the purpose of floating a loan for the benefit of sold the loan at a loss of £164,000. Does Sir T. Mci!wraith. 'rhere was at that time an the hon. member not know that in floating arrangement made with our bankers by which a loan the price at which you fix it has a great the interest due on the 31st December would be deai to do with the ilelling price? The hon. mem­ met. What happened in the meantime to them ber says that the difference l:retwecn what that as well as to every other bank in the colony~ In loan fetched and par was a loss upon the loan. a month or two after that most of the banks in Is he not a ware that a loan, when it is under­ Victoria and New South \Vales shut their doors, written, brings a much higher price in the because at that time there had br,An large with­ market than a loan which is not underwritten ? drawals. For some reason or other people lost When we ask for a loan at £5 per cent. and fix the confidence they had in the banks, but the price at £110, does he think that that £10 is profit Queensland National Bank survived longest of on the loan; or if we sell a 3!! or 4 per cent. loan all. at £90, does he think there is a £10 loss on it~ MEUBERS of the Labour party: Oh, oh ! That is the way he seems to view such trans­ The HOME SECRETARY : What is the actions, and it is the wc>y he made up the loss need for hon. gentlemen's hilarity? It had what un that loan. If he will look at the English the other banks had. It had large deposits. papers and ehewhere he will find that But after the crisis began to fall the Government that loan of 1893 was well sold and tho,t the did not come to the rescue of the Queensland interest paid is the average interest on the National Bank with money. After November, whole of the national debt. He seems to when Sir Samuel Griffith made up his mind think that we who governed the colony at the ot sell that !o:tn he made such arrangements time were so fal"e to our trust that we went to that none of it could go into the Queenslaud the English market and sacrificed a loan. And the National Bank. It was known to the Govern­ country has not the slightest need whatever to ment that heavy withdrawals were being made, complain of the price realised for that loan, Ol' of but it was not known to the Government or its destination. \Vhat became of that loan? The to anybody else what the effect of these with­ £600,000 was paid back ag,>in, with intere,st, to drawals would be. ·It was not known to any the Bank of England. The hon. member wants member of the mercantile community th&t such to !mow whether the Government ever got a serious crisis would happen. We are all very interest on that sum, The Government paid wise after the event, of course. It was the the interest. duty of the Government, knowing that the Mr. GLASSEY: I asked who paid the interest, bank lent its money to foster the industries the bank or the Government. of the. country by a system which this House The HOME SECRETARY: The bank, by approved, to save our people, not the bank; not being able to be drawn npon, paid us interest it was our duty to prevent those people being on the money we did not get from them as ruined by any harsh action of the t ;overnment. arranged. If we had £2,000,000 in the bank they \Vhen it was told us that the withdrawah at home paid us interest on the £2,000,000. put the bank into a tight place Sir Samuel Gritlith had to con>ider the position. In 1892 Mr. DAWSON: At what rate? there were men connected with the Government The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. mern as free from connection with the Queensland ber must know that the rate paid since recon­ National Bank as hon. members opposite. I struction up to htst year was 4!! p2r cent.. It is never had a transaction with the bank of which now about £2 12s. 6d. If that money whrch we I was ashamed or which would make me a did not get out of the Queenslo,nd National Bank partial judge of what took place; and in the at that time was part of the locked-up money we absence of so many of those who were my have got far more intere§t on it than we paid to colleagues at that time a new duty devolves the Bank of England. But in obl;aining that on me. Sir Hugh Nelson was not a mem­ £600,000 SirS. \V. Griffith had no option unless ber of the Government at that time ; the he wanted to s•crifice the colony and be false to Speaker in the chair is unable to defend his trust. He borrowed it on good terms, and himself, and there is not a single member sold the loan advantageously. He paid back the of the Government besides myself who can speak bank, and he was careful enough, instead of letting as to what took place on that occasion. If Sir the balanee go into the queeDsland National Samuel Griffith were on the floor of the House Bank at a time when probabiy many 'l'reasurers to-day, and the hon. gentleman opposite made might have done it, to see that the balance was the observations he has made, he would have so secured that when we wanted it to pay our received such an answer as on previous occasions June interest it was there for that )Jnrpose. \Ve made him whine with the revenge he h"s shown have heard the viJe,t insinuations affecting the to-day. It would have been better had he shown uublic character of SirS. W. Griffith in thi• mat­ it to the man's face when he was here rather ter, and that he was the 8ssociate of forgers and than b~hind his back. No man in this conntry thieves. 'l'he man is aLsent, bnt I will leave it can produce one scintilla of fact which will to any nnbiaosed pe.rson to say whether one reflect upon Sir Samuel Griffith for his action in )lartic!eof blameattaches to him in connectioin with J.892. 'l'he hon. gentleman says that it was for it. Althong-h I know nothing of t.hi~ trans':ftion, some sinister purpose that the loan was not floated except what the public outside know and· what in 18!l2. Does the hon. gentleman know that no the Auditor-General's report states, I know that sane financier puts a loan on tbe market till when the minutfl came up for the purpose of the interest halancr;s on the 31st December come selling the loan, m.v colleagues gladly shared in-that nearly every mant: who wisely wanh to with him all the credit-blame, there is none-­ sell a loan waits for the money which id there for that is due to the Government for tiding over an investment on the 31st December? The Bank emergency, selling the loan at a profit, securing of England was communicated with and asked every farthing of the money, letting (,lueenoland if it was advisable to sell the loan at the time, have both the principal and the interest, and 1897-o K 1666 Queensland [ASSEMBLY.] National Bank. saving the credit of the colony. It was a wen­ loan was sold was for the purpose of paying advised, wen-considered action, having no rela­ interest, the Auditor-General at the time said tion to banks, but to the credit of Queens­ the loan was sold to pay interest, and in his laud, and I am perfectly sati"fied that long next year's report he stated that the balance ago the hon. member made up his mind that was paid over in order to meet the June interest. the loan could have no other object. And we I have dealt fuiiy with these transactions, have the distinct pronouncement of the Auditor­ because there are so many absent for whom I General, aud the distinct statement made by SirT. ought to speak. If I have not done justice to Mcllwraith on his return, that no portion of this their remembrance of the facts it is because I have loan ever went into the Queensland National not a more intimate know ledge of the trans",ctions, Bank. We have the statement of the Auditor­ which are better known to Sir Samuel Griffith General in 1893 that the Queensland National than to me. I can say I have never had the Bank should have found the money and did not. slightest conversation with Sir Samuel Griffith 'Vhere was the hon. member then? 'Vhat is the on the subject, but I have seen his letter, use of this ancient history being brought up now? and the statement I make at the present moment Hon. members asked me the question in thtt had occurred­ must be true." But the Courier's remarks were if Sir Samuel Griffith on the top of all that had open to two interpretations. Then the hon. gone and crushed the Queensland National Bank member for Maryborongh, Mr. Powers, made by forcing that money out of it; if he had added that statement, and the Premier, standing here, disaster to disaster in that way he would have answered that not one farthing of that £1,000,000 been anathemat.ised all over the colony. Nothing loan went into the coffers of the Queensland too bad could have been said of him for not National .Bank to sweii its assets. Why did having done the very thing he did do-getting not hon. members bring the matter up then? the money elsewhere and thus saving the Why not when Sir T. Mciiwraith was here? credit of the colony. The hon. member dealt There was no concealment about it. The with the information which the Government whole thiug was discussed and gone through, should have placed before Parliament. He and everybody admitted that it was a wise previously expressed himself perfectly satisfied thing to do in 1893. What is the object now of the bona fides of Sir H ugh Nelson and in raking this thing up? Is there anything Mr. Barlow in their examination of these that the committee have put in their report that accounts, and what new facts are disclosed on is not in the Auditor-General's report or that has tbis occasion to cast any doubt upon the not been stated in this House by Minister~ over bona fides of Mr. Barlow and Sir Hugh Nelson? and over again? All the committee state is that I have never been able to discover them. The Mr. 'Vebster " admitted ' that the loan was only new fact the hon. rr.ember says he has dis­ floated for the benefit of the Queensland National covered is that the committee of investigation .Bank. Are hon. members opposite going to rely state that they have 1raced a partnership upon the admission of Mr. 'V ebster~ Is Mr. 'Veb­ between Sir T. Mcihnaith and Mr. Drury. ster such an authority, or is his connection with Does he not see that the antidote to that state­ the bank such, that on his mere statement thi~ ment is to be found in the report of the com­ should be stigmatised as a dishonourable trans­ mittee itself. When the committee brought up action? True, it relieved the Queensland National their first report, after a prolonged investigation Bank from the immediate necessity of finding extending over nearly three mouths, what did the money, and to that extent, when SirS. ,V. they say? They were not able to tell this Grift1th financed through the Bank of England, House at that time that there were any partner­ he relieved the pressure which would have ether­ ship transr1ctions between Sir T. Mci!wraith and wise fallen on the Queensland National Bank. Mr. Drury. But I ask what else was he to do, and whtre is Mr. HARDACRE : They dii! not say that. the occasion for the accusation of fraud? I need The HOME SECRETARY: 'Tbe.y did not not refer hon. members to the pag,'s of Hansw·d report it then. Stiii, I am perfectly justified in in w hi eh that transaction is refer re:! to. I have that statement, because their seeond report gives them here, but no douJ:>t the hon. member for us very clearly to under~tand that they Fliuders, who has got this thing off by heart, knew n'othing whatever about this until Mr. will recollect that the statement was made not McEacharn was examined. They say this in­ only in 1893 bnt in 1896. Mr. Powers inquired formation came to them from Sir T. Moll­ what had become of the money, and he was told wraith himself through the light of a document by interjection on that occasion that the Queens­ and Mr. McEacharn's eYidence. Knowing, then, land National Bank did not get it-that the that the committee of investigation, after over Government got it, and every farthing of it, with two months' work-after being subsequently interest. The hon. member himself, with the assisted by a mo"t minute examination and by persistency characteristic of his action in connec­ the assistance of ail the inspectors in the bank­ tion with the Queem.land :!'< ational Bank, probed did not find this out, and knowing also that it the thing out once or twice afterwards, and from was only to be found out by a document and evi­ these benches, in the presence of SirT. Mci!wraith, dence obtained outside the hank, how could yon I said to him: You have heard the Premier expect Sir Hugh Nelson and Mr. Barlow to find say four times already that the loan was not it out? Mr. Barlow is not here, but I make this floated for the Queensland National Bank. No statPment for him fully authoriser] by him and by more clear statement could have been made Sir Hugh Nelson, who when the time comes wiii about it at the time than I made, and I was no doubt make it in better and clearer language. the only man who was here to make the state­ I state emphatically to this country, on behalf ment. I made that statement to the hon. mem­ of men whove honour and credit I have always ber, and I record these facts now to show hon. known and respected and believed in, that members that we did bring this transaction neither of these men had or could have b"d the before the House. 'Whether right or wrong we slightest knowledge, ~inkling, or suspicion that a brought it before the House, and said that loan partnerghin existed between Sir T. Mci!wraith was not floated for the Queensland National and the late Mr. Drury. They did not know Bank. The Aaditor-General said the Queens­ it, and they never dreamt or suspected it until land National Bank owed enough to pay it. We it came out in the committee's report. In regard told you at the time that the reason that to the partnership, when that comes to be sifted Queensland [24 NOVEMBER.] Rational Bank. 1667

by men more trained in legal matters than the ago, so to carry myself as to retain the respect of my members of the committee, it will probably fellow-colonists. If I were to make use of any of this prove to be to some extent a eo-ownership con:fldential information in any way whatever, I should consider myself deserving of the execration of the whole merely, and not a partnership at all. My colony. Nothing of that nature. therefore, need be answer. to the hon. member on this point is attempted t,o be extracted, eit.ht"r from myself or my that S1r Hugh Nelson and Mr. Barlow knew colleague. Any information of a public nature that i"& nothing of the kind, and no man could have desired with regard to the affairs of the bank, we shall found it out from anything that appears in be most hallPY to impal't, but nothing beyond matters the ordinary books of the bank. I also answer of a public nature. him with regard to the transactions of Sir T. Of course he pointed out at that time very Mcilwraith, that they appeued before Sir Hugh clearly what was the cause of the inquiry and Nelson and Mr. Barlow merely as transactions the meaning of it. The c>tuse and origin of the between debtor and creditor. Their mission on inquiry was to report to the House whether the that occasion was to do no more than sen,rch and bank possessed sufficient realisable assets to pay discover whether the bank was or wns not in a its debts. solvent condition, and the details of Sir T. 1\Ir. TunLEY: ·whether the hank was solvent. Mci!wraith's transactions with the bank could The HOMJr in these words when Sir 'l'homas Jliicilwraith was a member of of the Premier- the Ministly in 1890, but theile were speculations The result of our investigation is that I am able to entered into by him, supported by the bank, report, a~ I have already reported to my colleagues that which, if it had b en well manr•ged, ought to in my opinion, in which my colleague, the Secret'i~.Y fm~ have looked after its own affairs and kept every­ Lands, concur~, the assets of the bank, taken at a fair one, including 8ir Thomlts Mci!wraith, in a and reasonab~e :raluation, and assuming any fair proper position. Sir Thomas Mdlwraith was method of reahsatwn, are more than suffi.nient to pay the debts a! the bank to the Government, as well as to not in this House from 1883 until1888, when the the outside public. Nation't! party"'''" formed. That statement was mB,de in 1893 at the tirr e Mr. GROO}I: He WM in office np to 1884. Sir Hugh Nelson was Trtasurer, and when he The H0::\1E SECRETARY: I am speaking was moving the second reading of the Queens­ of the time the £10,000,000 loan, which was land National Bank Bill. That. is all that is at the beginning of the whole business, was important so far as the Government are con­ floated; and up to the time the so-called great cerned. National party wail formed this House was led by Mr. GLASSEY: No, no! Sir S01mucl Griff.th, and Sir Thomas Mcilwraith The HOMR SJWRETARY: That is the main was not then and for fonr years oubsequently in por.tion_. ~ C>tn find nothin_g in Sir.Hngh's speech Parliament. He was a man prepared to do busi­ whwh IS Important on this occaswn excep~ this ness and pay interest on the tran,,actions he en­ statement- tered int•J with the bank. Therefore, I say the ! wish further to say that while examining the persons examining the bank had simply to find accounts of the bank my hon. colleague, the Secretary out what its assets were, and the reliability of for Lands, and myself received a '\'"ast amount of con­ tho,,e assets. \Vhen Sir Hu0h Nelson and fidential information with reglird to the con:;-tituen ts of JI.Ir. Barlow had done th<>t, there was nothing ~he bank. ~ mention this by way of preca ntion, because else necess try to be done on that occasion. 1t may possibly occur to some hon. members that it The report of the committee revealed that if Sir will be necessary for the House to inquire into some of those matters themselves. I wish to state Hugh Nelson and Mr. Barlow were c,Jrreet in distinctly, and at once, that any information we have their statement with regard to the assets of the received in that respect we consider sacred. I have bank at the time they examined them in 1893 always studied, since I c~me to the colony, forty years there had subsequently been a shrinkage in the 1668 Queensland [ASSEMBLY.] National Banlc. value of those assets to the extent of 2s. 9d. in The hon. member for Charters Towers, Mr. the £1. Hon. members had that report before Dawson, questioned that in his usual way, say­ they were asked to pass any legislation. What ing, " Yes, a very large amount." information is there in any documents which Mr. DA WSON : 'V hat do you mean by "his should induce hon. members to change their usual way?" minds on the subject of the action of those two gentlemen in 1893? It is necessary to remind The HOME SECRETARY: I mean not in hon. members of their action in 1893 when a reasonable way, but with his usual party bias. they had before them the report showing the If the hon. member would leave party at times, shrinkage in the value of the assets of the ba.nk, and act with justice and reason, he would be and to do that I shall refer to the observations much more effective, not only in this House but of the hon. member for l!'linders, the hon. mem· also in the country. The hon. member for Cler­ ber for Clermont, the hon. member for Bunda­ mont proceeded-- He admitted that, but the hon. gentleman could be berg, and the junior member for Drayton and given credit for sincerity and honesty of purpose. The Toowoomba. On the 1st of December, l896, the hon. gentltman had been a very able and bitter hon. member for Bundaberg, speaking on the opponent of hon. members on hi.s side, and probably Q~eensland National Bank (Agreement) Bill, no two men had exchanged harder words, and probably sald- would again, than the hon. gentleman and himself, but no 011e could question the hon. gentleman's ability to I~ the 'freasnre~ w~ll pardon me, I would say that, wh1le I may be 1nclmed to think the Treasurer and deal with a question of that kind. He was prepared to his colleague actecl hastily in connection with their assist hon. members on either side to define the limits examination, or probably had not sufficient time at within which t,he agreement should be entered into. their disposal, I should be sorry to believe that the The hon. member for Flinders had shown commend­ hon. gentleman would knowingly act dishonourably. able energy aud industry in his endeavours to get at Smely the hon. gentleman will acquit me of any desire what he believed to be the truth in this matter, but to reflect in a personal manner upon him. that hon. member admitted that if the Treasurer agreed to a further invet,tigation into the affairs of the On this occasion the hon. member has said the bank he would not see much objection to legislation Treasurer was both capable and disinterested, on the question passing through the Chamber. then that he was honourable. \Vhat new facts Of course, that brought him instantly into con­ then have come under the hon. member's notice flict with the hon. member for Flinder•, ant! he since the 1st of December last year that he subsequently said in reply to that hon. member- should now say that the Treasurer is not any The hon. member for Flinders had done him an one of. the three? Nothing the hon. member injustice by saying that he had forgotten what he had has sard to-~ay, except "ifs," justifies such a said. He had not forgotten. The men referred to were change of opmwn. The lion. member said that as capable as himself of rising to the occasion and of "if" the Treasurer in going through tbe books acting in the interests of the whole community. The hon. member had made it appear that the quotation he of thP bank found that Sir Thomas Mcllwraith had made was from a speech on the Financial Statement; and Mr. Drury were partners, then he would be but on the 24th ;s'ovember the hon. member had nsett the same time they recognise that they have sought to do justice to the colonv as a ~hole and a duty to perform, and they will perf01·,n that not to one particular class. He said that if he dut.y fearlessly and without favour, even if in stood alone on that occasion he would take the doing so they should be brought into conflict responsibility of his action, and his words were with gentlemen with whom they have been on very expressive. They were as follows :- terms of friendship for many years. Does the Under the proposed scheme th~ Queensland National hon. member for Bundaberg- think that when the Bank would be the stronge~t institution in Australia. Premier and the Hon. A. H. Barlow were going Let them "tell the truth and shame the devil." He was there to tell the truth ancl to express his honest through the books of the bank they discovered convictions, taking the responsibility of standing even transactions amounting to dishonour and dis­ alone on that mattel.·. credit, such as those referred to in the report of But he did not stand alone, because he got the the committee? Does he think that if they had hon. member for Burke to back him up on that done that they would aftervmrds with the occasion in one of the best speeches I have heard greatest alacrity have appointed men to look into the lion. member for Burke make in this House. the bank's affairs, examine them up to the hilt, The hon. member in that speech backed up his and report the result of their investigations to two colleagues-the hon. member for Bundaberg, the House? Would they have done that if they and the hon. member for Clermont. had any knowledge that they were going to g-et Mr. GLASSEY : The hon. member for Bunda­ a report which would show that they were guilty berg would do the same thing to-day under the either of a misuse of their position or of a neglect same crrcu1nstances. of duty, as the hon. member was charged? The HOME SECRETARY: And I think Mr. STEW ART: The hon. gentleman could not the hon. member would act rightly in doing so, help it. but he should have found new facts before he The HO:ME SECRETARY: All the demands made another speech of a different character. of the hon. member would not make me do any­ 'l'he hon. member for Clermont further said- thing I did not want to do. I would do what I He admitted that the Bill reposed a large amount of thought was due to my position in this House, faith in the Treasurer's ability to make an agreement. from a conscientious regard for my duty to th Queensland [24 NovEMBER.] National Bank. 1669

country, and without regard to the howls Mr. BROWNE: In committee he said he felt confident of the hon. members. Hon. members on the the bank could pay 4~ per cent. other side may go about the country and be The ATTORNEY-GEXERAL: Yes, that they could pay told to do this and that, but hon. members on it, but that it was too much all the same. As a matter of fact, the bank could almost pay 4~ per cent. now, but this side have a higher purpose-that is to do it would reduce the margin of safety, and if a bank is their duty regardless of temporary popular only £10 on the wrong side it is practically insolvent. applause. I waft that back to hon. members The whole of the banks at that time offered 4~ per cent., opposite- to be used on future occasions. The so that there must have been a consensus of opinion among financiers that they could afford to pay ~per Premier has just reminded me that the corres­ cent. But since then we know that they have fonnd pondence shows that the first acoion in connec­ chat they are not able to pay that rate, and that is the tion wioh the first report emanated from him. great change which has taken place since 1893. If the Can any hrm. member say that since the report agreement of 1893 had provided fo1• 2~ per cent. instead was made on the shrinkage of values anything of 4~ per cent., the Queensland National Bank would has occurred to justify this motion? noc have needed to come to this House to-rlay, and the Government need not have come to this House with Mr. GLASSEY: Ye>; further revelations have this Bill. been made by the commictee of investigation. Mr. GLASSEY: No, no! The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: If the rate had been The HOME SECRETARY: The only addi­ fixed at 2~ per Cent. instead of 4t per cent. the bank tional information contained in that report is would have made a clear profit of £1~7,000 a year. that there has been great mismanagement on Further on he said- the part of the bank, and great neglect of duty All I can say is that taking it for all in all-although on the part of the directors. It also states that the Treasurer is my leader, I say without any sense of fiattery-that I believe that since Queensland has been advances were made to somebody which are Queensland we have never had a wiser, more prudent, worthy of comment, because they were made or more sagacious Treasurer. under circumstances which this House should J:\fRMBfms on the Government side: Hear, hear! know of. But what has that to do with the The ATTORNEY-GEXERAL: He may have made mis­ motion now before the House ? I would like to takes, like other people, but he has managed the remind the hon. member for Bundaberg of the financial affairs of thi.; country in a way that has earried praise even from men strongly opposed to him reply made last ye.nr by the Attorney-General to in politics. I believe that if the rrreasurer is invested the hon. member. The quotation I shall make with this power, he will maltigation, while the committee oi investiga­ tion only arrived at its conclu::;ioug after sitting for two committee of investigation shows that certain and a-half months. 'l'heu we know very well that tl·ansactions took place between Sir Thomas things have altered tremendously since 1893. Mcilwraith and Mr. Drury, and that Sir Thomas };fr. GLASSI<~Y: Hear, hear! For the worse. Mcllwraith was indebted to the bank, therefore The Al'TORNEY·Gl~NERAL: For the worse, no doubt, the two hon. gentlemen who made an examina­ so far as values arc concerned. The value of our pro­ tion into values in 1893 are to be cash\ered clucts and the value of securities have gone down; and ic speaks well for the Trea.surer's powers of prognostica­ from the councils of the colony. If that is to tion Chat in 1893 he vm·y strongly hinted at the fall in the be the reward of men for doing their duty, ea1•ning power of money. Since 1803 the earning power hon. members on the other side should be of money has greatly gone down. We have only to the last to throw the first stone at any look at our own stocks and thol with the ques­ market 8-lld say what the values are? The tion of the locked-up deposits. That is what the valuations were made by these two gentlemen papers try to make out, and the country is under as accurately as possible, and yet, as I have the impression that by the Act of 1893, by the said, on one asset there has been an in­ floa&ing of the loan, and other things, we have crease of r,o per cent. vVe have to consider risked more public moneys than before, and in­ the reduced values in 18\13, and compare them creased the bank's liability in regard to locked­ with the increased values of 18\JG. The com­ up deposits. mittee obtained the evidence of expert.3 and Mr. TuRI.EY : No ! managers, a.nd their valuations may be more The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. mem­ approximate than those of the Premier and Mr. ber may say that here, but when he is on the B:ulow, but does that prove what the h8n. mem­ lorry at the corner of the street he will say ber tries to assert-that the valuations were something different. The public have been led fraudulent and corrupt? I would guarantee to to believe, by newspapers and otherwise, that put the whole of these properties before bun. the Govermuent, by their action in 1893, and by members opposite, and I do not believe that if legislative action, have increased this liability, they went outside and acted U]Jon what they but I can show that since 1894 we have knew-which is very little-they would come decreased the locked-un deposits by £300,000. within 10 per cent, of one another. 'rhe whole We have not borrowed money and put it in question is one of relative values, and ;cet the the Queensland National Bank by way of leader of .the Labour party frames an indict­ current account. \Ve have not borrowed one ment agamst these two gent:emen that they farthing since 1893 and put it in the bank. are not worthy to be members of the Govern­ The loan floated in 1892-3 was all paid either mPnt of Qneenlsand. He said that the only into the Bank of England or went to pay interest ground upon which he did this was that they due in June. The current account increases or knew Sir T. lVIcilwraith was a partner with decreases according to circums&ances. The con­ Mr. Drury, but that question was not before solidated revenue is made up by a variety of them; it has vanished into the air, and what things-trust moneys, savings bank moneys, and is the hem. member's denunciation founded other things. If a man con1es with £50,000 to upon? Only upon political sr•ite. and nothing the savings bank we have to take it. \Vhere are else. The key has been given. He told us that we to pu& it? Into the bank. That increases years of friendship were almost severed by his the deposit for the day. But if the man action in connection with the Queensland comes for it the next day we have to give National Bank. it back. Therefore we have to keep a Mr. GLASSEY : That is so. strong current account to meet savings bank The HOMJ<~ SECRETARY: The ban. mem­ deposits and all the legitimate business ber for Eurke puurtrayed it in a manner that transactions of the Government. That some­ nearly brought tPars to onr eyes, but what do we times has reached £2,000,000, but we brought find now? W<• know th>tt there has been a duel it down till it was about £700,000 some time ago. between hon. members opposite and the TVorker, \Ye took £500,000 out of the Queensland National and now the hon. member has to play his carct~; Bank the other day and placed it in three other he has to cement the Labour party' by a deter­ banks. I am authorised by the Treasurer to mined uttack upon this institution and the state that in addition to that it is our object Government. Before the general election he has to see if we cannot get in some manner an associa­ to bring all the Labour members together and tion of the banks, such as there is in Victoria, so focus them by making a common enemy of the that we can distribute our money, and if one Queensland (24 NOVEMBER.] National Bank. 1671 bank goes we can fall back on the others. That probably the locking up of the Queensland projec~ has the full sanction of the institution National Bank. When we brought these pro­ which owes us the money, and which will not posals before the House hon. members t'hem­ take any action to militate against its success. sel ves have assisted us in connection with the But could we have done that before the recon­ legislation for the Queensland National Bank struction? If we had attempted any such project under circumstances far less onerous than the in 1893-4-5-6, the result would have been that Treasurer had in 1893, and I say that the directly we attempted to take money out Treasurer deserves the sympathy of every right- . of this bank it would have been considered minded man in the colony when he has been by all our creditors and by all persons, in­ able by his exertions to have that bank open to cluding customers of the bank, as a fly-blown its customers with a knowledge of safety, and institution, and the result would have been not one 6d. beyond the amount of that 5s. disaster to the institution and corresponding possibly may be lost to the Government. No man disaster to the colony. But by the action of the can come forward and bring to me one solitary Government and members who struggled to keep per8on who, since this report of the Premier's in that institution legitimately before the com­ 1893, has ever lost one single shilling or been munity, with the view of showing its position, we placed in a worse po~ition than he was before by have put it into such a position that it will come the report of those two gentlemen. Their report and say it does not pay to have the Government said at that time they considered the bank was money. They have to give a certain percentage in that position that with fair terms it would pay for everything over £100,000; and they cannot lend its debts. If ever there was an occasion in the the money out because it is at call. Consequently history ol the cobny when optimism is justifiable we have made arrangements by which .£fi00,000 it is when pessimism means ruin, when by an opti has gone in to other banks, and partly concluded mistic opinion you may, without prejudicing any­ other arrangements which will lead, I hope, to body or placing anybody in a worse position, you associated banks in this colony, so that there will may stay a panic, optimism is justifiable, and if the he no prospect again of the Queensland National Treasurer on that occasion erred on the side of Bank being such a millstone round our necks optimism there is not a single man who should as it has been in the past. I know that hon. accuse him of that now. I trust that the House members opposite with socialistic ideas of State and the country will weigh these statements and bank8 will not approve of the action of the Go~ the statements uttered since, and give to this vernment; but I think all persons in the country motion that amount of consideration which it will be satisfied when they know that a •·esume deserves ; and that consideration is to show to of the action of the Government since 1892 is the Premier and Mr. Barlow that the acts of shown in the following way :-.£2,000,000 was public men in the discharge of their duty are locked up. 'fhat sum of money has been reduced well remembered and greatly apiJreciated by the practical-ly by £400,000. The matter of current people of this c0lony account has been considered by the Government HoNOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! by the reduction of the amount in the Queensland Mr. McDONALD : Before entering upon the National B>1nk by £500,000. The public are main question before us I should like to correct not so much concerned with what has been a statement made by the Home Secretary. The done in the past as with future action ; the past hon. gentleman said that in a speech I delivered is only valuable as affording an object lesson for last year I gave the Premier and Mr. Barlow all the future. I have shown what the Government credit for honesty of purpose. That is so, but contemplate in connection with the report; what the hon. gentleman did not quote my speech, the action of Sir Hugh Nelson and Mr. Barlow but a portion of a speech delivered by the hon. was in connection with the investigation they member for Clermont. ·He left out the qualifica­ made. I believe I have satisfied every man tion I made, and as it is just as well that there capable of being satisfied that they did their best should be no misquotations I will read a part of in the interests of the country. I can look back my speech on that occasion. It has been said to my transactions in connection with the Govern­ that half a lie is the blackest of all lies, but I am ment's action as to the Queensland National Bank not going to attribute that to the hon. gentleman. and look everyman in thecolonyin the face and say I corrected him at the time, but he refused to no man can truthfully come forward and say I accept it, so that the onus of misquotation must ever considered one person in connection WJoh the fall upon him. Here is a sentence from what I Queensland National Bank in regard to my said then with regard to the report of those hon. action and that of every member of the Govern­ gentlemen- ment associated with me. We were always They must either have known the true state of affairs thoughtful of the interests of Queensland alone, in 1893 or they must not. If they did not know them I wish the Attorney-General were here to-night, they had been deceived by false books and false balance­ because I can say many an nnxious day have we sheets. both had in regard to th0 position we in­ It will be seen then that, although I marle the herited from others. "\Ve saw the anxiety statement, I made it with certain qualifications. of every Treasurer with this bank with To come to the motion before the House. There .£2,000,000 of money in it, and all this money is no doubt that the Government and those lent out. We tried our best to see that that sum sitting on the other side ought to be highly of money wa~ not increased. We tried our best proud of the hon. gentleman. It is the first to see that our people, to whom that money was occasion I ever remember when a Premier has lent out, were not harassed by the action of the had to be apologised for by one of his colleagues. Government. I say emphatically that we had Here we have a motion, levelled against the the greatest anxiety for years in connection with Government, of no confidence, a motion which that institution, and we will be delighted when includes the Premier, another member of the we find that the arrangements the Treasurer bas Government who is in the Upper House, Mr. made will relieve each and every member of the Barlow, and another who is absent from the Government from the unfair criticisms made colony, Sir ·r. Mcllwra1th; and after the leader upon them in their endeavour in connec­ of the Labour party had moved his motion and tion with that bank to do the be•t for the made bis statement, whether justifiable or not-I colony. I say I have had the most intense believe justifiable-it was the common duty of the sympathy for the Treasurer. If he did what Premier, as head of the Government, to get up some persons suggested, and demanded that and reply to those charges. But what did we money, he knew that the result would probably have? A paltry excuse froro the Home Secre­ be disaster to the industries of the colony, and tary, whll says the reason the Premier is not 1672 Queensland [ASSEMBLY.] National Bank.

going to reply to the hon. member for J3undabPrg Que!'nR!and K ational Bank delivered up this is that he believes other statements are going to £500,000 was that they had no use for it. So be made and he wants to reply to the lot. Is it that the Government to oblige the ba.nk deposited not reasonable to suppose that the hon. genfle­ it in thre" other banks. That is the position man would have put the best case he pos"ibly alway•\-anything to oblige this favoured insti­ could against the motion? The leader of the tution. The Government locked-up account, he Labour party has put his statemEnt cl ~arly before say•, is le5s by .£300,000 than it was in the House and the country, and if everyt.hin~ is 1893. That is so, but it is because they clear and aboveboard there is no need for the wanted to oblige the bank again. The bank had hon. gentleman to want to reply. But the Home to pay 4.\ per cent. on that money, and they said Secretary, as everybody knows, can get up at to the Government, "You take this .£300,000 of any time and talk for four or five hotu·s and say our ourplus money," and thSydney ? That never was The next otartling piece of information we got insolvent. from the hon. gentleman was that the Govern­ l\'Ir. McDONALD: The hon. gentleman then ment have had under their serious consideration goes on to refer to the last loan, and he says that for a considerable time the desirability of re­ the Government, watching and guarding the moving the Government account from the interests of the colony, took good care that that Queensland National Bank and putting it into money did not go into the coffers of the Queens­ the hands of th<' associated banks. land National Bank. As a matter of fact it was The Hmm SECRETARY: They did it. the members on this side of the House who Mr. McDONALD : I beg to differ from the actually forced the Government to make that hon. gentleman, because there is no association statement. They knew the mistrust of the bank of banks here at the present time, so that the by the general public, possibly they were Government could not have put it into the hands beginning to mistrust it themselves, and they of the associated banks. The hon. gentleman yielded to the desires of hon. members on this applied the term as it is applied in Victoria. side in not placing that monoy in the Queensland The HOME SECRETARY: ':['hey put .£500,000 National Bank. The hon. gentleman said this into three other banks. money was left in the Bank of England at what­ 1\fr. McDONAI"D: That is the startling ever rate of interest they could get to be information-that after seriously considering for ready to pay the interest on the national debt some considerable time they came to the conclu­ falling due at different period•. We have had sion to take .£500, 000 from the (~ueenaland N a­ that assurance from the Government at tional Bank, and deposit in it three other banh. the time, though there has been no report to "What does the hon. gentlen1an go on to say? that effect, but I point out that the Queensland I believe that when he is defending his friends National Bank in Brisbane must have had a he does not know what he says. Two minutes corresponding amount here, so that although the afterwards he states that the reason why the money was never passed through the bank so far Queensland [24 NOVEMBER.] National Banlc. 1673

as the London branch is concerned, so far as the account the falling off in deposits would have Brisby in the Bank of that when, in 1883, there was a change of Go­ England they well knew that they were deceiv­ vernment, it had become too powerful to fight ing the people, and that the Queensland against. 'l'hen in 1888 Mci!wraith returned to National Bank was going to reap the benefit power once more, and the state of affairs shown here in Brisbane if it did not reap it in to-day is the result of what began to take place London. I say they had a right to place in 1888. Now, in connection with the motion, this House and the country in possession of it is not necessary to go over the arguments all the facts in connection with the bank, and which have been used at various time8, or to they did not do that. There has been an refer to the legislation of 1893 and 1896, and the air of mystery through all the legislation in action which the Labour party took on both connection with this bank from 1893 right on. of those occasions. What we have now to con· \Vhy did not the Government tell us honestly sider is this : Did the Government know in 1892 the position of the whole affair? Then, again, that the bank was in a crank and insolvent state? the hon. gentleman wants to make us lJpJieve It seems to me from the evidence that we have that the Government were very desirous of before ns that-as was said by the hon. member having the whole a.ffair inquired into, and that for Enoggera last year-the whole financial they are responsible for the appointment of the atmosphere of the bank was corrupt-that those committee of inquiry. Has the hon. gentleman directly connected with it were nothing more or the audacity to tell us that the Government less than a den of thieves. In connection with the appointed that committee? Why, they only put borrowing cf this £600,000 from thA Bank of the Auditor-General on the committee when England to pay the interest on the national debt their own supporters went to them and asked in 1892, there is this remarkable statement in the what position would they be in if they voted letter of Sir Samuel Griffith- with me when I moved the adjournment of the It will be noticed that Sir T. :lfcilwraith was not House. They said they would be compelled responsible for this transaction, !or which all the blame to vote agaimt the Government unless the ror, as I thought at the time, the credit) falls to me. position was made clear, and the hon. mem­ How does that statement coincide with other ber for Lockyer stated that if I would with­ portions of his letter? Has the Home Secretary, draw my motion the Auditor-General would who defended that gentleman so ably this even· be put on the committee. I do not want ing, really read that letter? to take any credit to myself for that, but I The HOME SECRETARY: Yes. happened to be in charge of the motion. The Mr. McDONALD: Then I venture to say whole of this party share the responsibility or that the hon. gentleman has given very little credit, whatever it may be, so far as their action heed to its contents. In another part of that towards the affairs of this bank is concerned, 1etter Sir Samuel Griffith says- and we are quite prepared to go to the country During the month of October I had several inter­ on the action we have taken. The hon. gentle­ views with Sir T. :\Icilwraith and Mr. E. R. Dntry, in man went on to say that the Government bad which the latter informed us that it was impossible for formed a general knowledge of the whole posi­ the bank to find t!le money. I believed the statement, tion in 1892. I would like to know if he means which was supported by telegrams from the London board produced by ~Ir. Drury. to implicate the whole of his colleagues? The Hmm SECRETARY : A general knowledge So that in one part of his letter the hon. gentle­ from the Auditor-General's report. man, who holds the position of Chief Justice of Mr. l'lfcDONALD: The hon. gentleman now the colony, says that Sir Thomas Mcilwraith shifts his ground. was not to blame for the transaction, while in The HoME SECRETARY : I do not. I said so another he says that he and Sir T. Mci!wraith when I spoke. discussed it with Mr. Drury at several inter­ l'lfr. l'lfcDONALD: It seems to me then that views. His excuse for Sir T. Mcllwraith is a the hon. gentleman is a mere cypher in the mere fallacy, and all the attempts that have been Cabinet, that' when important business has been made to defend Sir Thomas have been a failure. brought forward he has not been taken into the Sir Samuel Griffith further states- confidence of his colleagues. It would be very On the 5th of November, no doubt at Sir T. Men­ wraith's instance, I sent a confidential telegram to Sir interesting to have a history of the political James Garrick informing him that it would be neces­ aspect of this bank since its inception. sary to issue the remainder of the loan before the end The H011m SECRETARY : Yes, from a dis­ of the year, and asking him to consult the Bank of interested source. l'ngland and the Queensland National Bank and advise Mr. Jl.fcDONALD : In 187!J it will be re­ me by telegraph. membered that l'lfcilwraith came into power, and Does that not prove that Sir Thomas Mci!wraith just previous to taking up the position of knew all about the mutter? Premier he resigned his office of director of the The HOME SECRETARY : Yes. bank, and was replaced by Si:r Arthur Palm er. Mr. McDONALD: Why then did the hon. It was generally stated at that time that the bank gentleman say that Sir Thomas Mcllwraith knew financed the election of 187!J in order that it nothing at all about it? might get the Government business. Great The HOME SECRETARY: I did not say that. rivalry existed just then between the' Queensland Mr. :McDONALD: In almost every sentence National Bank and the Union Bank, but as soon the hon. gentleman said that Sir Thomas as Mcilwraith got into power he rescinded an 1.\i[ci!wraith,was not to blame for borrowing this Executive minute which had been passed at the money from the Bank of England. instance of the present Secretary for Railways­ The HOME SECRETARY : I said that Sir Samuel which was to the effect that no bank doing Griffith sold the loan. Government business should hold more than Mr. McDONALD: This £600,000 was £200,000-and transferred the account to the borrowed before the 20th of December, 1892, to · Queensland National Bank. The amount at credit meet the interest falling due on the 20th of of the Government account in that bank then December. I would call the attention of hon. began to pile up until it reached £400,000. At members to the remarkable fact that the leader that time there was a considerable falling off in of the Opposition at that time was asked outside deposits, and had not Mcilwraith in­ by the Government to take charge temporarily creased the amount at credit of the Government of the Government, with the view of becoming 1674 Queensland [A.SSEMBLY.] National Bank. a permanent member of the Ministry, and had also some very fine articles showing the of being put over the head of the Home position of the bank. It went so far that there Secretary. He took office a' a Minister was an attempt to prosecute the paper and stop without a portfolio on the lOth of December, its issue. and remained in that position until he was The PREMIER : How awful ! gazetted a Minister of the Crown on the Mr. McDONALD: If the crime is so awful, I 27th of March, 1893. It was during the period feel sorry for the hon. gentleman, but I hope he that he was acting as a Minister without a will survive it. But. on an occasion of such portfolio that the loan of 1893 was floated. I gravity, when we are considering the unfortu­ 8"ppeal to this House and to the country whether nate position of this institution, and when we are anyone can h,mestly believ0 thctt the present considering the position of the hon. gentleman, Premier knew nothing of the transactions which hon did not come in until six weeks after­ hope that he will defend himself when his turn wards. comes. However, I do not want to be led a•vay Mr. McDONALD: The present Chief Justice from the subject, and if the hon. gentleman does went to Thursd"·Y Island on the 12th of Decem­ not care to listen to me, I trust he will go to the ber, and Sir Hugh Nelson took charge in his other end of the building, where he may find aboence, and was acting as Premier. The Home more congenial company. I do not want to in­ Secretary, who was the senior :Minister, was dulge in anything outside the serious position slighted, and Sir Hugh Nelson was appointed as before us. I have sat quietly during the debate, leader over hi~ he1d. only making one interjection, for which I was The HOlvlll SECRETARY: Quite right. promptly told to mind my own business by the ~vrr. McDONALD: It wa~ not quite right. Home Secretary. At the same time the hon. If the snme thing were done at the present time, gentleman did not seem to be minding his own the hon. gentleman would want to come over business, because he got up and minded the here, and form another Government. The hon. bnsiness of someone else. I have sought to gentleman told PS that the l,•an of 1893 was the show that the hon. gentleman who is now lead­ best priced lean that was ever floated for this ing the Government knew perfectly well the colony. facts of the case in 1892. He then knew that The HOME SECRETARY: No. the bank was in a chronic state of insol­ Mr. McDONALD: He sdd that it was the vency. He knew that the borrowing of the best· priced loan floated up to that time. 'With £600,000, and the raising of the loan of 1893 all due deference to the hon. g0ntleman and his were both for the express purpose of preventing fine flow of language and his ever·readiness to an exposure before the general elections. The defend a fallen chief, I would like to show him battle cry of the hon. gentleman and of Sir that he is wrong again. I shall take the figures ThomasMcilwraithat that election was" Return from the Treasurer's ta~les. The first 3!J per the Labour party, return Sir Charles Lilley, cent. loan was floated m 1884, and realised return the Opposition, and they will burst every £93 19s. 6d. If I am going too far back for the bank you have in the colony." As a matter of hon. gentleman, I shall take the loan floated in fact no one knew better than the hon. gentleman 1889, which re.'1lised £96 Os. lld. \Yhen we that the Queensland N ationotl Bank was in such come to the loan of which the hon. gentleman a rotten condition that it could not possibly hold spoke, what do we find? It only realised together. Even then, bad as it was, rather than £87 6s. ld., although it was underwritten at a allow u~ to have the special honour of bursting cost of some £17,000. The whole loan was a that institution, they preferred to reserve the terrible loss to the colony. honour of bursting the show themselves. We The HOM]

committee based their report, not upon the and I think the hou. member is more to blame values of 1896, but upon those of 1893, and I than anyone else for having brought about the maintain that when the Home Secretary said resolution we are now discussing. Had he been that values had fallen since 1893 he misled the honest and fair to the House, he would have House-wilfully or otherwise ; but I refuse to given us the fullest information. There was no be misled in that manner. Any deficien0y in necessity, as the hon. member wanted to show, to the assets of the Queensland National Bank must interfere with the prosperity of the colony by have occurred before 1893, and we must not going into private accounts. All he told us was forget that there has been a writing off of over that he had made a searching in vest1gation and £700,000, so that there was not only a shrinkage inquiry. But what was that inquiry? It has of nearly £2,500,000, but a writing off of nearly been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the £700,000, and, therefore, the deficiency is con­ whole inquiry made in 1893 was merely on the siderably over £3,000,000. I contend that there false books and balance-sheets set before them. has been no fall in values since 1893. If the hon. gentleman does not take up that Mr. BELL : What about the price of cattle? ground, the only other ground he can take up is The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : And that he thoroughly examined the securities and in sugar? knew all about them; and, if that is so, he Mr. McDONALD: If there has been any fall deliberately came down to the House and in sugar there has been a corresponding fall in deceived it. He can take up whichever position the price of kanakas. he likes, but I do not think either is very credit· MEMBERS on the Government side : No, no! able to this House or the colony, which has been Mr. McDONALD : And· other things that dragged through the mire with the mud and will help to make up any deficiency that may dirt of the Queensland National Bank. It have occurred in that direction. I must admit appears to me that the Premier and Mr. Barlow, that there has been a certain amount of fall in if they examined the private and confidential the price of cattle; but I venture to say that books of the bank, as they say they diil, must they are now worth more than in 1893. have been in possession in 1893 of certain facts 'l'he SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Not disclosed in the report we have just got, and I in the tick districts. want to know why they deliberately deceived Mr. BELL: Where? the House, and did not give the House the benefit Mr. McDONALD: In any part of the colony. of that information? Though there may be a divi­ Mr. BELL: Not in the Enoggera saleyards. sion on this question, and though the Government Mr. McDONALD: Yes. \Vhat is the use of may have a majority of thirty or forty, or 500 the hon. member saying that? Does he not if that were possible, that will only whitewash know that owing to the tick pest and the them. If the Government are desirous of doing drought there is a scarcity of cattle, and that justice to the colony generally, they have only. scarcity has increased the price? I do not say one honourable course open to them, and that that if you brought a lot of diseased cattle down course is to get through the preliminary business here you could get as good a price as for prime of the House, obtain enough Supply to carry on cattle. till after a general election, and then appeal to Mr. BELL: I am talking about fat cattle. the country upon their action in connection with They are less valuable than they were. the Queensland National Bank. Mr. McDONALD: I maintain that that is Applause in the strangers' gallery. not so. They are more valuable than in 1893, The SPEAKER : Order ! I wish the occu­ and we have seen by cablegrams that station pants of the galleries to know that if there is any produce has also risen in price, so that the demonstration of approval or disapproval of any­ Government cannot take up the position that thing which is said by any hon. member during there has been a fall in values generally. I will this debate I shall order the galleries to be even go so far as to give the Government the cleared at once. benefit of any doubt, and admit that there has Mr. McDONALD: As it has been stated that been no rise in price ; but there hr.s been no fall, we were the guilty parties who wanted to ruin so that the Home Secretary cannot excuse the the colony and bring about disaster and misery Premier and 1fr. Barlow by saying that there by breaking the Queemland National Bank, I has been a shrinkage. What the House is entitled take up the same position I took up before, and to know is what sort of examination was made of say that it would have been the best thing which theee books and securities in 1893. That is could have happened to the colony if that bank's what we want to get at. I maintain, with doors bad closed in 18D2 when the Government due respect to everybody, that the House knew the position. If the Government had has not had that information. Hon. mem­ possessed stamina and backbone, and had not bers have been treated like a lot of children, been squeezable by the late manager, that and I do not think any House in any of would have taken rlace then. I am vre­ the British dominions would have been treated pared to admit that there might have been a in this way. There is not a man at the momentary pause in the commercial life of the head of the Government, or likely to be there, colony, and that a certain amount of distress who would sit idly back and wilfully refuse to would have been cttusecl through the closing of give information, and treat the House with con­ the bank, but that would not have been worse tempt, a~ has been clone by the Premier. I say than the position taken up by that institution. that we want to know this for more reasons than Is it not the case that the bank ig making every one. I maintained at the time, and have main­ effort to squeeze every body that is squeezable so tained since, that it would have taken twelve or as to be able to carry on the institution? That eighteen months to make a complete investiga­ is the worst and vilest form of liquidation. vVe tion of the bank, but the House would not have had in view a far more equitable manner of such an investigation, and sent the hon. member liquidating the assets than the present method. and his colleague to make inquiries. What If the institution had been placPd under proper was the result of that? They went clown, and liquidaton, to liquidate over a term of years, the either of two things happened. Either Mr. disaster spoken of could not have taken place. Drury got hold of the pair of them and talked At present everybody that can be squeezeil is them over, or he exhibited false balance-sheets being squeezed in order .that the bank may and false books, and if that were the case carry on; and even men who are really solvent, those gentlemen were themselves deceived and men who can pay 20s. in the £1, are being forced they came back and deceived the House. It from the institution so as to keep up those rotten is in regard to that that we want an explanation, and bogus people who are head over ears in 1676 Queensland [ASSEMBLY.] National Bank.

debt and insolvency. So we find that the present deserting him. Nine out of every ten business form of liquidation is worse than anything ever men you meet will tell you that the transactions proposed by thi~ side. I am just as much alive that have taken place between the Government to my responsibilities as any member of this and the Queensland National Bank have been House ; I am prepared to assist, as far as I e'1n, the curse of Queensland, and that the action of to better the cond1tion of the working cla,ses of the Government is paralysing trade in every this C.)lony ; b'lt I cannot forget that in 1891 the shape and form. For that reason they, who bank then found money for the expres:; purpose were his late supporters, but who are no longer of trying to down an organisation that was such, desire that a change should take place. growing into powf'r and thre'ttening t<> crush out But no fear! There is not the slightest fear of of existence the party now sitting on the Govern­ any of them going to the country. ment side. Not only that, but they assisted the Mr. DAwsoN: They have got a new brand of present Government to put some of our mates glue. into gaol, and as long as I have a voice in the Mr. l'IIcDONALD: Yes; it is in the shape of House or in the country I will raise it £1,000 a year, and it sticks so strong that they ag.1inst those who tried to destroy a growing will be glued to their seats until they can no political power that wa;; going to oust from the longer helo themselves. But the longer they rottenness and corruption of political life the hold on to office the deeper will they drag party that now sits on the other side. When Queensland into the mire. The action we have men were fighting for their righte, did the Govern­ taken in the past we are not ashamed of. The ment attempt to send to the other colonies for Government turn round and say all their actions legal ad vi~e? No; they came with Coercion are honourable, straightforward, and above­ Acts to crush out that growing political power. board. I for one doubt that. But in this C:l.>e, when men who have been The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC INSTRUCTION: banded together in a huf;e conspiracy to defraud That is your mission. c~rtain people for a number of yenrs, then the Government come down tmd say we have no laws Mr, McDONALD : It is not my mission. lUy ut present under w hi eh we can convict those mission is to try and a~sist in doing good to the people, but ad vice is being obtained from the country. other colonies. The Go\ernment, with its five The HoME SECRETARY: The duty of an Oppo­ la1vyers, cannot get sufficient lt>gal ad vice without sition i~ to defame the Government. going to the other colonies. Mr. McDONALD: I do not chim to belong An HONOURABLE ME1IEER: \Vould you trust to the Opposition. I am a member of the those five lawyers? Labour party, and our leader is the hon. mem­ Mr. McDONALD: It appears that they ber for Bundaberg-a party whom hon. members -cannot trust one another. on the other side have always tried to ignore and The SECRETARY I•'OR PUBLIC INSTRCC'riON : to insult. Even the Home Secretary himself, Just like most nf your statements. who is usually very courteous, has thrown out Mr. McDONALD: I think the hon. gentle­ slms and insults as to the object of our leader man said that when I said the (-lueensland in moving- this motion. This motion has been National Bank was insolvent, but it came true moved by the leader of the party in all sinceritY. all the same. And the strongest justification and good faith and in the interests of good hon. members on this side have for the whole of government. As to the Government, after the their action in connection with the Queensland disclosures contained in those reports, if they National Bank is contained in the reports of the had any honour about them, and did not love the committee of investigation appointed by the hon. £1,000 a year hanging to their position, they gentleman at the head of the Government, one would not retain their seats five minutes. of whom we forced him to pnt on. Mr. HARDACRE: I regret that I should be The PmmiEil: The Auditor-General was the called upon to address the House owing to the first man I asked to sit on the committee. silence of hon. members on the other side, who Mr. McDON ALD : I will not delay the certainly should have attempted at least to de­ House any longer, having had very little 'ay on fend themselves from the charges which have the matter. I have only one further remark to been brought against them from hon. members make. The Government have charged this side on this side this evening-charges against their of the Hou,

election. That was the beginning of the trans­ kind. Thongh that admission as from a director actions which have led up to the report of the of the bank is of great value, it rests on more last two weeks. There were various changes, than that. but in 1890 influence was brought to bear to The SECRETARY FOR PUllLIC LANDS : \Vhat bring together the two men who had been life­ does tlJ. It is as clear and distinct a charge of theft against Sir Thomas Mcllwraith as any other of their findings. They say that with regard to a contract for steel rails, and he early in1892 the bm1k appears to have experienced had called him practically a thief. But in 1890 great difficulty in meeting- the wholesale with­ they were brought together again ostensibly in drawal of Briti,;h depo"ita at that time, and the the interests of the finances of the country. Does correspondence shows that the Government came it not show thatth~re must have been som\o under­ to their relief by bol'l'owing £fi00, 000. That is their hand influence used to bring together those two distinct finding, and then they go on to say that bittPr political opponents? I would not say that Mr. \Yebster atlmitGed 1t. Mr. \Vebster's Sir Samuel Griffith knew then all about the st."tte admission is given as corroborative evidence of of affairs in the Queensland National Bank, but their finding. ·when it affects themseives the he had an inkling of it, if he was not aw~tre of Government try to minimise one of the findings t~e whole matter. Probably the bank compelled of the cornmit't,,.,, but I say that if we are to hnn then, on account of his overdraft, to join accept the findings in the report-and I see no Sir T. Mcilwraith. In 1892 Sir S;muel Griffith reason for not doing so-it is indisput3;ble evi­ turned somersault on the whole of his life-long dence that those connected, in any "ay, with political principles in connection with the Poly­ these transactions, are not worthy of seats on the nesian Act, and an Act was pa~sed for the pur­ Government benches. Bnt I was surprised to pose of enhancing the v.tlue of sugar lands in find that actuallv we had this ste.te of affairs not which the Queensland National Bank 'YftS brgely only found out by the committee and admitt<. The only reason who tries to excuse the Government by asking for the introduction of the Land-Grant Hail way what would have happened if any other course Act wa9 to enable Sir T. Mcii wraith to plnnge his had been adopted? I s11y it was not his business hands into the riches of the colony by gerLin~ what would have happenPcl. It was Parlia­ concessions for land-grant. railways. It wa·, du~ ment's and the country's business. The plain to a desire on thair part to gamble so as to duty of the Government, when they found the retrieve their own personal ruin and pav back to bank was becoming a defaulter, was to come the Queensland National Bank some of.the large down to Parliament as they did in 18!13 and overdrafts for which they were then responsible. 1896, and ask it to deal with the whole queotion. That is the only adequate explanation that can 'Ehe SECI\ETAllY I<'Dll RAILWAYS: In the mean­ be given of the Land-Grant Railway Act and time the State would have become a defaulter. the sudden change in Sir Samuel Griffitb's J\!Ir, HARDAOH.E: No, not necessarily; but political principles. Then we had the Elections I will de"l with that suhoequently. The b11nk, Act of 1892, for the purpose of crushing down under an Act of Parli111m·nt, had entered into the voters of the colony and retaining for them­ an agreement with the Government, undertaking selves the reins of Government in order that to provide certain funds when called npon. they might be in a position to shelter their con­ The SECRETARY FOI\ LANDS: \Vhat is the good duct and the affairs of that institution. These of an agreement if it cannot be C'1rried out? are circumstantial evidences, quite outside of the 'I'he SECHETAI\Y ~'Ol\ RAII,WAYS: No Act of charges made to-night, sho·.ving that there Parliament can m>:~ke a man pay money th>:~t he was collnsion between those interested in the has not got. Queensland National Bank and the members of J\!Ir. HARDAORE: The members of the Go­ what htts been called "the continuous Govern­ vernment allowed the bank to distinctly violate ment" to benefit that institution at the ex Dense their w,-_:-reerrl8nt without disclosing the ~tate of this colony. If that is a reasonable explan'ation of affairs to Parliament. 'l'hc,t fact alone of what occurred up to that time, it only makes shows that they are unworthy of the position of it more reasonable and more probable that when, reeponsible 1\linistl·rs. But the more serious in 1892, the bank required a"sistance, they used matter is the borrowing of this £GOO,OOO in order the powers of Go,·ernment in order to borrow to pay interest; and they not only did that, but money on the London market to save that actually ciiverted money which was borrowec! for particular institution. That leads up to one of a speci6c purpose, named in the Loan Act, to the principal charges c

this institution, and they make excuses and falsehood, which merely carr·ied out the policy apologies for their action. The plea put forward they pursued from 1888 in order to assist the by the Home Secretary to-night that the end bank in return for the assistance it had given in justifies the means, is a plea that is put forward returning Sir Thomas Mcllwraith to power. by the embezzler and the robber at all times. The HmiE SECRETARY: Who has been injured? The embezzler takes money from his employer's Mr. GLASSEY: Every member of the com­ till and puts it on a race, saying, "If I win I munity has been injured. shall be able to l1enefit my poor old mother, and Mr. HARDACRE : The whole community pay back my employer, anrl he will be none the has been injured. The honour of Parliament worse." So, the Government have thought that has been injured, and the honour and credit of the~· might be able subsequently to refund the the colony has been injured. The report which money to the purpose from which they had was laid on the table last week se~ys that since diverted it, and they never imagined that these 1893 things have gone from bad to worse. No disclosures would have been made. As it is, minutes had been kept of the board meetings, they are in the "'ame position as the embezzler and no records had been kept. The untruth told who appropriates money from the purpose to by l:)ir Hugh Nelson and the Hon. Mr. Barlow which it ought to be devoted. permitted the bank to pay dividends out of The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : Is it t.he depositors' money since that time. Government you am talking about? The HOME SECRETARY: No dividends. Mr. BARDACRE: I am ta.lking of every Mr. HARDACRE: Dividends to the amount member of the Government who was a party to of £100,000. that transaction. I come now tn the statement Mr. GLASSEY: No; £40,000. made by the bank that it was not able to meet Mr. HARDACB.l~: ls not even that some­ the demands made upon it. That me~y or may thing? If an ordinary man assisted an institu­ not have been the case. If it was the case, then tion to rob a man of even £40, he would be put the bank was issuing false balance-sheets at that in gaol, and those hon. gAntlemen who have timfl, and the Government who were a party to deceived this House, and deceived men who the borrowing of this money must have been have lost their all in the institution, should at aware of that fact, and a party to hushing it up least be punished to the extent of being tnrned from the public. If, on the other hand, the bank ont with dishonour and ignominy from their was not issuing false halance-shets, then it must positions on the Government bencheg, Their have been in a position to meet the demands action has resulted in the locking up of large made upon it, and the Government must have sums belonging both to private depositors and known that. I have here a balance-sheet of the to the public. But we have it in evidence that bank for the half-year ending the 31st of December, they came down in 1896 and again deceived 1892, which was published early in January, Parliament. They presented the report of the 1893. According to this document they paid a committee to us, and, on the distinct under­ dividend at the rate of 10 per cent. amounting standing that the agreement the Premier was to to £40,000, and carried forward a balance of make should be on the basis of that report, thi; £16,000 to the next half-year. It also shows House was induced to pass the Agreement Act. that the bank had as assets in coin and bullion Then, as soon as Parliament had disbanded, the £1,734,000, and a cash reserve in the colony, hon. gentlem~n entered into an agreement with bills remitted and in transit, amounting to the bank very much more to the advantage of £2,186,000. That was a public document, sent the shareholders, and very much more to the broadcast over the colony, and Sir Samuel injury of the colony and of depositors, than the Griffith and the other member• of the Go­ agreement Parliament had authorised him to vernment must have been aware of it. Yet make. notwithstanding the statement in that balance­ The HOliiE SECRETARY : The depositors would sheet that the bank had such a large cash reserve, not agree to that agreement_ the manager of the institution told the Go­ Mr. HARDACRE: No, because the directors vernment that the bank could not find the had snch power over depositors that they com­ small sum of £GOO,OOO. If the bank told pelled them to give them proxies. They were in the truth in saying that it could not find that a position to tell the depositors that unless they money, then it was issuing a false balance-sheet, accepted their conditions they would compel and it was the duty of the Government, who are them to repay the money they had borrowed. responsible for seeing that justice is done in the That resulted m the acceptance of an agreement colony, to have made it known that it was a very much more favourable to the shareholders fraudulent balance-sheet, and tohavepunished the than the agreement the hon. gentleman was publishers of that false balance-sheet, instead of authorised to make. hiding the fact that the institution was insolvent The HOME SECRETARY: There was no decep­ month after month, and year after ye"r, until tion of Parliament. 1896. ·with regard to the report made by Sir Mr. TURLEY : The amendment that was pnt in Hugh Nelson and the Hon. A. H. Barlow as to the Bill wa9 a deception. the position of the bank in 1893, I shall deal Mr. HARD ACRE : That was the deception. briefly with that matter. The quotations which No information was given as to the real meaning have been made with reference to that aspect of that amendment, and when the hon. member of the subject make it very clear that they for Flinrlers ail ked for an explanation, he received came down to this House, knowing the facts, an evasive reply; and yet it was that amend­ and deliberately-I say that advisedly-deceived ment which enabled the bon. gentleman to alter Parliament, because they said the:v had made the terms of agreement. It came out afterwards a searching investigation of all the books of that Mr. Ralston, the general manager of the the bank, even the confidential books, and had bank, had actually consulted the Premier with examined g.]] the securities. Either they must reference to the agreemen~, and the hon. gentleman have seen those hooks, or else they told Rn brought in the amendment in consequence of what untruth-they deliberately and knowingly told occurred between them, without disclosing to Parliament something contrary to 11•hat they had Parliament whattbeobject of the amendment was. done. If they did see those books, and examine One argument in itself may not conclusively the securities, they must have known the inwl­ prove a case. But if you have a number of vent state of the institution. It is not merely a arguments all linked together, and all pointing que"tion of values, because they say ft little to the one conclusion, the case is then proved in before that that the hank was solvent. I every particular; and in this case there is no want to know what has been the result of this other conclusion to be come to from all the Queensland [24 NOVEMBER.] National Banlc. 1679 circumstances, but that the members of the Mr. HARDACRE: That is what I say. It Government have used the public funds for the was the duty of the Govetnment, who knew the purpose of benefiting the institution at the facts, to say to that institution: "\V<: ha;ve expense of the colony. Every effort on this side obtained this information by a confideutral m­ of the House to compel an inquiry into the quiry, and therefore we have no right to disclose affairs of the bank has been frustra.ted and the re;ults of that inquiry, but we '.>ill give you thwarted by the Government. It wa• not till no adsistance until you have disclosed these 1896, when the bank wanted further assistance, transactions yourself. \Ve will not ibe a pa~ty that we got an inquiry, and the further dis­ to clouking thece robberies that have been gomg closures we sh~uld not have got at all but on." They knew all about it by their own that a fuller inquiry was insisted upon by admission. the public in consequence of the first report. The HoliiE SECRETARY: Have you ttny idea Now I come to the last charge I have to make, when those robberies took place? and it h the most important charge of all. Not only have the Government benefited the bank by Mr. HARD ACRE: If we had had the inquiry borrowing money for it and in other ways, but earlier we should have known all about it long they have sheltered criminal and fraudulent ago, and if the Government were to be trusted, transactions. That is the most serious charge instead of going to another colony to get a l.e~al that could be made against members of a Govern­ opinion, they "onld have done what. the BntJSh ment, some of whom must have known, while Government did in the case of the CJty of Glas­ others may have known, of these tranRactions. gow Bank directors-arrested them and put There can be no doubt in the minds of the them on their trial, and all the facts would have people of the colony as to the scand"lons trans­ come ont. actions that have taken place between the bank The Hmm SECRETARY: \Vho brought up the and one member of the Government and variow< City of Glasgow Bank directors? other persons. Overrlrafts have been obtained upon rotten securities, fd it is matter of fact the re1 >art says that the books did not the duty of the shareholders and depo· were persons who of in this report between Sir T. MeT! wraith a1d obtained unlimited overdrafts for which the bank Drury, who put their hands into tbc coff8rs of the had no security. \Vaq it right for the Govern­ bank, and took out wbat they liked without ment to keep that hidden for three years? \Vh,.,t­ security, or limit, or the knowledge of the ever charge might be brought against those directors. It is not a case of being a debtor of concerned in this matter, there was a feeling in the bank, but a robber of the bank. I say the the public mind that the Government were aware Government did know of these transactions. of this state of things and took no actio?. I;n The HoME SECRETARY : If these people robbed the interests of the creditors of the b.tnk 111 this the bank they ought to go before justice. colony and in England it is most advisable that 1680 Queensland National Bank. [COUNCIL.] Adjournment. those members of the Government who have blackness and bankruptcy. Such statements been a party to deceiving Parliament and deceiv­ will be made so long as the members of the ing themselves in order to bolster up this insti­ Ministry included in this motion remain members tution should no longer be members of any of the pre.sent Government. Ministry. In the Bankers' ~Magazine for 1893, Mr. ARMSTRONG : I beg to move the ad­ an influential work amongst financial circles in journment of the debate. Great Britain, there is an opinion given by an Question put and passed; and the resumption eloquent writer as to the corrupt politics and of the debate made an order for to-morrow. finances of Australia. It is intended as a warn­ The House adjourned at eleven minutes past ing to investors in the old country. 10 o'clock. The HOME SECRETARY : Is it writlten by Wilson? Mr. HARDACRE: No. It is written by T. M. C. That does not mean Sir Thomas Mcllwraith. This is what he says- When I was in Victoria some six months ago I met a gentleman who once held the Treasurership of the colonv, the highest post in the :Ministerial Cabinet save that of the Premier. Since I had seen him before he had served a term in gaol for fraud in connection with the business of a building society, of'' hich he was the trusted manager and one of the promoters. It was a fiagrant case of wholesale robbery by a gang of swindlers of which he was by no means one of the worst. Shortly afterwards, in the c>tpital of :New South Wales, I was pre