Open Session IICSA Inquiry - Internet Hearing 17 May 2019
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Open Session IICSA Inquiry - Internet Hearing 17 May 2019 1 Friday, 17 May 2019 1 Q. You joined BT in 2012; is that correct? 2 (10.30 am) 2 A. Yes, that's correct. 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Day 5 of 3 Q. Before that, you were serving in the police? 4 this public hearing. Mr Krishnan? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 MR KRISHNAN: Good morning, chair. 5 Q. For over 20 years? 6 The first witness for today is Mr Kevin Brown of BT. 6 A. Yes. 7 Please may he be sworn? 7 Q. Did you have any experience dealing with child sexual 8 MR KEVIN WILLIAM BROWN (sworn) 8 abuse cases during your time as a police officer? 9 Examination by MR KRISHNAN 9 A. Yes, throughout my career, from my early days of taking 10 MR KRISHNAN: Good morning, Mr Brown. 10 reports, through to later days of the more complex 11 A. Good morning. 11 investigations. 12 Q. Could we have your full name for the inquiry please? 12 Q. Can we start with BT itself. You describe the BT Group 13 A. It's Kevin William Brown. 13 as a communications service provider or CSP; is that 14 Q. You are the managing director of BT Security? 14 correct? 15 A. That's correct. 15 A. Yes, that's correct. 16 Q. You've been in that role since November 2018? 16 Q. One of the BT Group's key activities in that regard, at 17 A. Yes, that's correct. 17 least so far as consumers are concerned, is to give 18 Q. Before that, you were vice president in security. In 18 people connections to the internet; is that correct? 19 a nutshell, what did that role involve? 19 A. Yes, that's correct. 20 A. That role was looking after the investigation teams that 20 Q. And you do this via fixed-line broadband; in other 21 deal with matters relevant to BT, and also where we have 21 words, people's home internet connections? 22 enquiries into BT requiring an investigative response, 22 A. Yes, that's correct. 23 and also looking after what I'll call our obligations 23 Q. And also by mobile internet connections when one uses 24 capability, so dealing with requests for information 24 one's cellphone? 25 from the law enforcements. 25 A. Yes, that's correct. Page 1 Page 2 1 Q. And over Wi-Fi as well? 1 At paragraph 18, you summarise the position in this 2 A. Yes. 2 way, I think. You say: 3 Q. The BT Group provides connectivity to the internet via 3 "BT does not host or facilitate the hosting or 4 various businesses and brands such as BT Broadband and 4 sharing of a significant amount of online content, like, 5 EE for mobile internet; is that correct? 5 say, Facebook does, but does provide access to content 6 A. Yes, within consumer, there is three distinct 6 produced by others. This is by enabling people to 7 brands: there is BT Mobile; there is Plusnet; and then 7 transmit data and information across our networks." 8 there's EE. 8 Can we look at the table, please, at your 9 Q. Just help the inquiry in terms of the scale of BT's work 9 paragraph 21, and could we please put that up on the 10 in this area. 10 screen at page 8 of Mr Brown's statement. 11 You say, I think, that the BT Group is the largest 11 Where does this table come from? 12 provider of fixed-line and mobile broadband to consumers 12 A. So that was produced in May 2016 from the Global Systems 13 in the UK; is that correct? 13 of Mobile Communications Association, so the GSMA, which 14 A. Yes, that's correct. In fact, at paragraph 14 of my 14 set out to explain the value chain of where 15 statement, I think there is a slight typo. The fixed 15 organisations are effectively categorised. 16 broadband we deliver to circa 19 million customers, 16 Q. Could you help us just briefly with what this table 17 which equates to just over 30 per cent market share in 17 shows, starting from the "Content Rights" column. In 18 the UK. 18 a nutshell, what do businesses in that column do? 19 Q. Understood. And the market share for mobile internet? 19 Perhaps you could use BT Sport as an example. 20 A. Again, that's 19 million, at around 26 per cent. 20 A. Yes. I think BT Sport is a great example of where we do 21 Q. Thank you. 21 produce and we provide content to our customers. So 22 Can we move on to the topic you address at 22 that is material that, again, it could be a football 23 paragraph 18 onwards of your statement. 23 match, it could be a boxing match, but it's material 24 This is the difference between BT and other internet 24 that becomes available that is, as I say, produced by 25 companies, if we can use that broad term. 25 us -- can be produced by us or by others, but we make Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground, 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS Open Session IICSA Inquiry - Internet Hearing 17 May 2019 1 that content available to our subscribers. 1 Q. Help us with the distinction between interchange and 2 Q. Moving along rightwards to "Online Services", just 2 core networks and retail internet access. 3 briefly, can you summarise the work of businesses 3 A. In the context of ourselves, I think the important thing 4 falling within that column? 4 is we're providing the connectivity, so we're providing 5 A. Yes, so the majority there, as described by Skype, 5 from point A to point B. 6 Facebook, so where the business is intrinsically linked 6 In relation to the question you just asked, can you 7 by actually being on the internet. 7 be a little bit more specific on what point you're ...? 8 Q. And the next one "Enabling Technology and Services 8 Q. Sure. So we see we have BT listed under both the 9 Rights"? 9 "Interchange" and "Core Networks" heading -- 10 A. Yes, so it's part of effectively enabling the 10 A. Yes. 11 businesses, for example, the online services, to work. 11 Q. -- and the "Retail Internet Access" heading? 12 So it could be the web hosting, and it could be billing 12 A. Yes. 13 and online payments as described there. 13 Q. I think it's the latter we're really concerned about, 14 Q. Can you help us in a little more detail with the next 14 isn't it? 15 column, which is where BT really sits? 15 A. Yes. So, if you're in a retail business, you're still 16 A. Yes, certainly, and I think, if I can just draw your 16 going to need connectivity. So whilst we have our 17 attention to paragraph 20 of my statement, where the 17 consumer arm, and we support many of our consumers at 18 e-Commerce Directive of 2000, I think -- in fact, 18 the same time, we will support, likewise, broadband 19 I think it's 2002, articulates the position and 19 services to enable retail businesses. 20 categorises three categories and describes 20 Q. And finally, briefly, the "User Interface" column? 21 communications service providers, CSPs, as mere conduits 21 A. Yes, so that would be, perhaps, the services that are 22 in the chain. 22 provided for an end-user and it could be something 23 I would probably use the analogy of a postman; so 23 that's on an endpoint, so, ie, a device, a mobile, 24 the role of a CSP is to deliver something from point A 24 a laptop, but it's something that is physically going to 25 to point B. 25 be used to effectively access the internet chain. Page 5 Page 6 1 Q. Is it right that one of the exceptions to BT not being 1 access that email. Other people may log into the 2 directly involved in the hosting or sharing of online 2 internet to access, so through a webmail. 3 content is the BT Cloud; is that correct? 3 Q. In operating BT Mail, does that involve BT hosting any 4 A. Yes, that's correct, we do have what's called the 4 content itself? 5 BT Cloud, which is used for -- offered to our consumer 5 A. No, it doesn't, it's -- it's hosted by third parties on 6 customers for backing up material, and we host around 6 BT's behalf. 7 720,000 users on that. 7 Q. Can we come back later to the implications of BT's role 8 Q. Is one able to use BT Cloud to store images and videos? 8 as a CSP in terms of what it can and can't do in 9 I assume the answer is yes. 9 response to child sexual abuse online? 10 A. Yes. 10 A. Certainly. 11 Q. Can one use the cloud to share images and videos with 11 Q. I just want to take a moment to discuss how BT secures 12 other people? 12 and funds its response to this area of offending.