RUSSO DENIED SHAW AT PARTY--OFFICER L Lt. O'Donnell Testifies About Interview

A veteran New Orleans police officer testified Wednesday at the trial of Clay L. Shaw that in June, 1967, Perry Raymond Russo told him Shaw was not at the mid-September, 1963, party at the apartment of David p. m. when Judge Edward A. L. Ferrie. Haggerty recessed the trial un- t. 4'Donne til 9 a. m. Thursday. wh-3—fT assistant connman immediately be fore Lt. of the homicide division and O'Donnell's appearance, has been on the force for 17 Jesse Ga r, the former lan years, made the statement af- swald in New Orleans, ter being called as a witness testified thaterifesame to for the defense. her home eitharthenight of Shaw is standing trial on a the assassination or the night charge that he participated in after. a conspiracy to assassinate Mrs. Garner, 4911 Magazine, President John F. Kennedy. The conspiracy allegedly involved Cont. in See. 1, Page 14, Col. 1 Shaw, Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald. Shaw is expected to take the witness stand Thursday. Lt. O'Donnell said that he in- terviewed Russo — the state's star witness—June 19, 1967, and during the course of his conver- sation he asked Russo why he HANDWRITING EXPERT Charles A. All el testified as he did during the area of the Criminal Courts Building Wednesday after com- preliminary h ear ing three pleting testimony In the Clay Shaw trial. months earlier. Lt. O'Donnell said: "He told me that when he got to court (for the preliminary hearing) he came with all Inten- tions of telling the truth and you (F. Irvin Dymond, chief defense attorney) turned him on by ask- ing 11 he believed in God, and this was a sensitive point for him, and after you, as he said, turned him on, he decided he was going to bury you." LT. EDWARD M. "Bury me," asked Dymond. O'DONNELL "Yes," Lt. O'Donnell replied. Quotes Russo Interview. 'Garrison Was Told of Statement by Russo' Lt. O'Donnell said that as soon as he completed his inter- view with Russo he immediate- ly went to the office of District Attorney Jim 'Garrison and re- ported to him and James L. Alcock, the chief prosecutor in the Shaw trial, what Russo had told him, Lt. O'Donnell was undergo- ing cross examination at 5:35 ffed she saw Shaw sign me Continued From Page 1 name. Shaw's writing. was another of five defense wit- :Also, Jefferson Biddison, a nesses called Wednesday as rtial estate man and long-time Expert Points Out Shaw's attorneys attempt to ftiend of Shaw, who handled Differences in Letters batter down the state case. Shaw's mail while Shaw was in ' Appel, using a blow-up photo, • Called presumably to testify Europe in 1966, appeared. Bid- graph of the signature with a About Oswald's appearance, dison said he received no mail blow-up of a sample of Shaw's dress habits and behavior, Mrs: during the period addressed to writing of "Clay Bertrand," Garner was shown photographs either a Clem or Clay Bertrand. then went through each letter of of Oswald and Ferrie. She k postal worker testified he de- also testified she never saw liyered mail to the Biddison ad- Shaw prior to his arrest in dress during this period ad- the handwriting samples and March, 1967, and never in per- dressed M Clay Bertrand. pointed out differences between son until last week. .Much of Phelan's testimony the two. When she was shown Fer- and cross examination con- He asserted that Shaw leaves 'rie's picture she said she rec- cerned a memorandum written his "a's" open whereas the reg- :'iignized him as a man who by assistant district attorney ister signature had a closed "a" came to her home shortly Andrew M. Sciambra following saying "the writing act is such ',after the assassination. Sciambra's initial interview a delicate act of movement co- Oswald lived in an apartment with Russo. ordinating hands, fingers, and ih the same building as Mrs. -The "Sciambra memo" did arm wills the direction of the qarner. She said a lot of peo- not mention a conspiracy meet- eyes that all of these things ple, mostly federal agents, ing, as Russo later testified dur- have to he the same to produce were in and out of her home ing Shaw's preliminary hearing the same design." immediately after the assas- and during the current trial. He characterized S h a w's sination. The meeting allegedly took handwriting as being done rap- • She said Ferrie arrived, and place at Ferrie's apartment on idly "in what some teachers after n few minutes, when she Louisiana aye, pkwy. during would call a scribbling fashion," determined he was not there Mid-September, 1963. and said there was a completely on official government business,- •■ Appel, Biddison and Phelan different style of writing be- she asked him to leave. She were called during the morn- tween the two signatures. said he was alone. ing session, but only the ques- After going through each let- Ferrie reportedly lett the city tioning of Appel and Biddlson ter, Appel said, "It can be seen the afternoon of the assassina- was completed. these are distinctive forms; tion when he said he went to Appel, who was qualified as neither of these entries are Houston. an expert in the field of hand- carefully composed," and he Other witnesses called in- writing prior to the trial's re- added that in making copies of cluded ja.naza-lalaelan, free-lance cess Tuesday, was the first wit- signatures, "it is necessary to magazine writer, who said on ness called. make much slower move- c(irect-examination that Russo, On direct questioning by Dy- ments." after the preliminary hearing, mond he told the court that he Of the "Clay Bertrand" sig- backed out of a meeting with ekamined photographic samples nature in the register, he said: Shaw, though Shaw agreed to of Shaw's handwriting as well Phelan said Russo told him, "It is more formal, slower, but as a photographic reproduction nevertheless natural to the per- tie wanted to be sure Shaw was of the Clay Bertrand signature the man he claimed he was. son doing the writing. Because found in the Eastern Air Lines of these differences, I conclud- '..1Phelan alleged Russo told him VIP register. the reason he backed away was ed they were not written by the Be said that he performed ex- same person." `.;if word got back to Jim Gar- aminations and comparative Dymond asked Appel if he rison, he would clobber me." tests on the handwriting sam- confined his study to just one Later, testified Phelan, Russo ples to determine the written told him that he lied about the sample of Shaw's handwrit- motion habits which causes the ing, and he said his study in- reason. Phelan quoted Russo as of letters. design cluded "a good many other" ,spying that "the reason I didn't He said the first thing he did was that if I got into a room samples, some written in was to copy the design of the 1e66. "And then I asked that With Shaw, I would know it was signature from the register "so not him." lie be requested to write on a as to make sure I was receiving number of sheets, each inde- :Phelan said Russo told him the hand movements." hi. could run some where "but pendent of the other so he He said he also did this with Leould never run from myself." could not see the writing on a "Clay Bertrand" signature the previous sheet." }handwriting Expert signed by Shaw "to compare Dymond asked what these each and every design caused comparisons revealed, and Ap- Testifies of Signature by the motion of the pen." pel replied: "The entry in the :Charles A. Appel Jr., a retired He said that Shaw writes book was made by some other handwriting expert for the larger than the person who writer entirely." Federal Bureau of Investigation, signed the register, and tha t He said that the various sam- testified the signature "Clay the proportion of one letter size ples of Shaw's handwriting Bertrand" on the guest register to another is larger in Shaw's which he studied showed no sig- at New Orleans International handwriting, and pointed ou t nificant differences, "just nat- Airport was not written by that the "C" in the register ural variations." Shaw. was smaller than a "C" l" "Did you came to a firm con- ' A state witness earlier testi- viction?" asked Dymond. exact science there is," replied not, but he asked that they be Appel, adding that his specialty "Yes, I did." written a certain way and as- is as exact as chemistry, and And what was that, Mr. Ap- sumed that was the way the added: "Certainly the compari- pel?" signatures were written. son of the design is scientif- "That the defendant Shaw did He told Alcock he asked that ic . . ." tot write the entry in the book." the signatures be written with Alcock then asked if mis- On cross-examination, Alcock Shaw seated in a normal writing takes are made In his field; asked Appel if he had occasion position, and he asked him to and Appel said, "Mistakes are it any time to do similar hand- write the content of the entry made in any kind of endeavor writing studies for the Federal in the register. After Shaw did that a human undertakes." He Bureau of Investigation in con- this, the paper was removed, quickly added his conclusions nection with the assassination of and he was asked to do it again, have never been proven wrong President Kennedy. until finally he had repeated the in court. Appel said he had not and process 10 times, providing 10 Alcock then mentioned some that he has not been employed different handwritings of the Louisiana cases and asked Ap- by the FBI since the end of same signature. pel if he recalled them. Alcock 1948 when he retired. He said he Alcock asked Appel if he knew intimated that in some cases has been receiving a federal whether the person who signed he named, the side that Appel pension since then. "Clay Bertrand" in the register testified for did not always win. was seated or not, and Appel Appel said that what he Examination Made said he did not know, and he meant when he made his earl- Entirely with Photos said in answer to later ques- ier statement was that "no one tions that there is no great has even proven my position Alcock asked if his examina- variation in a person's hand- was wrong." tion consisted entirely of analy- writing whether he is seated or Later Appel told Alcock that, sis of photographs, or if he stud- not, the letter forming remains of what he saw in court, the ied the original samples. He essentially the same. original of the signature in said photographs were used. Al- the "Then why did you have him register "v e r if i es what I cock asked if, as a general prac- found." tice, it would not be more de- seated?" sirable to have original sam- "Because people learn to On re-direct, Appel told Dy- ples. write seated," answered Appel. mond that having seen the original of the register signa- Appel said it is always bet- ture confirmed his opinion. Dy- ter to have originals, but it is 1966 Letter Examined, mond asked if there is any not necessary. Appel Tells Court difference created by writing He said he examined all orig- Appel said he also examined sitting or standing. "No, sir," inals of Shaw's handwriting aft- a letter Shaw wrote to one of said Appel, "that would con- er he arrived in New Orleans, the Wegmanns in 1966. Al- cern a different aspect of the and that he saw the questioned cock asked to see it and, after writing entirely." signature in the register for the reading it, asked how he con- Dymond then asked Appel if first time when it was shown cluded that it was written in he was being compensated for to him on the witness stand. 1966, since it was not dated, testifying. "You did point out, though, "I was told it was taken that it is better to see the orig- from the files of Mr. Weg- Witness Appears inals, did you not?" asked Al- mann," he replied, and said Because of Civic Duty cock. later he received several sam- "No, I'm appearing because "It is not necessary at all if ples of Shaw's signature in feel it a civic duty." the evidence concerns design o writings made in 1966. f He explained that in the past letters, and these (the photo- "Did you make your conclu- he had done this, adding he graphs) showed very well, so sion prior to seeing the original foes not normally take crimi- there was no problem." documents?" let case-., but when there He told Alcock that, in the "1 did." case of a suspected forgery, it Appel later told Alcock that Is necessary to obtain the orig- no two signatures are exactly inal because the forger does alike, "even though one Is writ- comes a time when "without not move the pen continuously, ten right after the other." my services an injustice may but rather very carefully "and There was a recess; and occur I do it as a civic duty." this produces a tremor, and the following it, Alcock resumed Dymond said he was finished. pen is removed from the paper • his cross-examination. He ask- Alcock immediately questioned and replaced." ed Appel how he selected the Appel about his last statement. Alcock asked whether Appel I particular Shaw signature of Appel repeated he does not saw Shaw write the sIgna- I the name "Clay Bertrand" that appear as a defense witness in tures, and Appel said he did was used on the blow-up. He criminal cases "unless there said it was one of the samples are some peculiar circum- he received, and it was select- stances that convince me an ed at random. injustice might be done." Alcock asked: "Is your Judge Haggerty said he i specialty an exact science?" thought the state was allowing a "How exact do you mean?" the witness to go into a field asked Appel. which the jury would eventually "As exact as mathematics?" have to decide. ,v "Mathematics is the only He told Alcock he was per-, milting the witness to go be- Clay Shaw?" yond the scope of his testimo- "No." ny." Alcock countered that this Dymond asked why he was so the lease was later extended to was a subject that was entered positive, and Biddison said that Sept. 3, 1966, and again to Sept. by the defense. he used his car in his business 20, 1966, even though Shaw had returned to the city. Alcock asked Appel when he (real estate) and Shaw had a car of his own, a black Thun- "During the time he was out formed his opinion about an in- of the country, did you receive justice; and Appel said, "1 derbird. mail for him?" formed an opinion that was Dymond asked if during 1963 "Not to my knowledge, at my needful for me to intervene." Biddison loaned his car to any- one "for a sufficient period to home," answered Biddison. He then explained that Lloyd take a trip out of town?" He said he received mail for Cobb, who previously testified "No, not in 1963," he said. Shaw at his office at 900 Royal, as a defense witness, called him Dymond asked Biddison if he and some mail was brought to and asked what he would charge knew Shaw ever to go under a his office by the people who for his services. He said he name other than Clay Shaw or leased Shaw's home. worked for Cobb on previous Clay L. Shaw. "No." Dymond asked what he did cases. Appel said he told Cobb his fee was 5250 a day, and "Did you ever know him to with the mail, and Biddison said that on two occasions he placed Cobb said the defendant does use an alias?" certain correspondence in enve- not have that kind of money. "No." lopes and mailed it to Shaw in He said the call was made last He also said he did not know Spain and England. Feb. 14. a Clay Bertrand or a Clem Ber- trand. Dymond asked if he had oc- After his discussion with Biddison also answered af- casion to look at Shaw's mail, Cobb, Appel said, be felt the and Biddison said he opened all defendant could not pay "and firmatively to a Dymond ques- tion of whether during the the mail; and it was at his dis- possibly stood a chance of an cretion what correspondence he injustice." time he has known Shaw he was reasonably familiar with would forward to Shaw. "Do you know whether Mr. Shaw's circle of friends. "Did you ever receive any Cobb was a witness in this mail at your office, residence trial for the defense?" He also said he did not know a Lee Oswald or a Lee Harvey or any place, addressed to Clay Bertrand?" asked Dy- "No, I don't. I don't know Oswald, or a David W. Ferrie or anything about the case." mond. "And yet you formed an opin- "Never," answered Biddi- ion about the case?" son, "prior to the commence- "That's right," answered Ap- a Dave Ferrie, and did not know ment of this trial." pel. of either of these persons be- He described the type of mail ing acquaintances of Shaw, nor "That's all," said Alcock. The box at his home and said he did witness was excused. did he ever hear Shaw men- not recall any mail addressed to Biddison was called next. He tion either name. Shaw being delivered to his said he has lived at 1414 Char- He was shown pictures of Os- some. tres since 1957 and has known wald and Ferrie and repeated Dymond asked if a Clifford Shaw for 23 years. he never saw them, nor did he Boudreaux ever lived at his Dymond asked Biddison if he ever see them in the company home, and Biddison said "no." awned an automobile in 1963, of Shaw. (Clifford Boudreaux was a and 'Biddison said he did. a "During the years you have name which Dymond mention- 1960 black Cadillac. Dymond known Mr. Shaw, have you been ed to James Hardiman, Biddi- hen showed him a state exhibit familiar with his manner of son's mailman. Dymond asked )( a black Cadillac and Biddi- tress?" asked Dymond. Hardiman if he ever delivered, son identified it as the one he "Yes," answered Biddison. mail addressed to him at Biddi-1 swned. He said he recognized it "Have you ever seen him son's residence, and Hardiman as being photographed in the veer tight pants?" said he thought he had.) driveway of the man to whom "No." On cross examination, Alcock established that Shaw resided, he sold it. "Have you ever seen him The photograph of the black Near a hat?" with Biddison for a short time, Cadillac is a state exhibit that "No." about a week, after Shaw return-, was shown to witnesses from ed from Europe in 1966 and be- Clinton, La., who said they saw Witness Recalls fore he was able to get back Shaw and Ferrie sitting in it in into his own home. late August or early September, Shaw Trip to Europe Alcock asked who else lived 1963. One witness said he saw Dymond then asked Biddison with Biddison at the apartment. Oswald get out of the car, and if he recalled when Shaw took He said that Fred Tate lived he identified Shaw and Ferrie a trip to Europe in 1966, and Were in 1964 and 1965, and that a as remaining in the front seat. the witness said he did. business partner in the restora- Dymond asked Biddison if he Biddison said he drove Shaw tion of 1414 Chartres, Clifton Go- knew Shaw in 1963 and if he to the ship that he sailed on and mez, lived there with him from was a close friend of his at that handled the leasing of Shaw's 1957 until 1961. time. He said yes to both ques- home during the period Shaw Biddison said there were no tions. was to be away. other permanent residents at He said Shaw's home at 1313 the address during the period Biddison Did Not Dauphine was originally leased he has lived there, but he added Lend Auto to Shaw for the three-month period from he has had many guests from "Did you lend your car to May 4, 1966, to Aug. 3. 1966, but time to time. he had occasion to ask Hardi- Witness Saw Shaw man about his statement that during the period Shaw was out volition. He said that after his Very Little in 1963 of the country he delivered retirement from the Trade Mart, Alcock asked Biddison if he mail addressed to Clem Ber- Shaw was a licensed salesman saw Shaw very much in 1e63. trand to the 1419 Chartres st. for the real estate business he i and Biddison said he saw him address. operates. very seldom because Shale was Biddison said he had, "when Phelan was called next. "fully involved" with Interna- it was • published in the news- Phelan was called as a wit- tional Trade Mart business. paper." ness at 11:30 a.m., but his "How about the summer?" testimony was halted shortly Alcock asked if he meant "Par: icularly Curiog the sum before noon when the defense Hardiman's testimony, and Bid- mer," answered Biddison. attempted to question him dison said he referred to Dis Alcock asked Biddison if he about a conversation he had trict Attorney Jim Garrison's ever loaned h's car to Shaw r: with Sciambra at the home of open i n g statement which Jim Garrison in March, 1967. "named me and my address." Phelan said he came to New in the fall of 1966; and Biddi- "Did you know about this Orleans in late February, 1967, prior to it being published in son said he had, and he believes shortly after news broke of Gar- the newspaper?" Shaw drove to see his parents rison's investigation into the as- "No." in Hammond. He said that at sassination, on assignment from Alcock asked Biddison if he the most, he loaned his car to Saturday Evening Post. could think of any reason Shaw on three occasions, but He said he got to see Garrison he could not remember the Hardiman would say some- after his arrival and started to thing untrue about delivering dates. say Garrison suggested a trip mall to the 1414 Chartres st. Alcock returned to the ques- to Las Vegas, but Alcock ob- address, but Dymond object- tion of Shaw mail received jected to hearsay and was sus- ed. Judge Haggerty sustained and Biddison said that no mail; tained by Judge Haggerty. the objection and told Alcock vas forwarded from Shaw'si Phelan then told Dymond he that Biddison was not a char- -esidenee to his own, although saw Garrison first at his office acter witness for Hardiman. le said there may have been and later at his home and sub- letters addressed to Shaw di- Next Biddison was asked how sequently met him in Las Vegas. much mail he received for rectly to 1414 Chartres. "Did you suggest the meeting Shaw at his office. Alcock asked Biddison if in Las Vegas?" "What comes to mind," said he knew whether Shaw ex- "No sir." Biddison, "is tons of It." ecuted a change of address "Was it pre-arranged?" before he left on his Euro- He said he opened every piece "Yes sir." of Shaw's mail, both personal pean trip. "It was my under- Phelan said he met again with as well as business, and said standing," said Biddison, "that Garrison after the Las Vegas Shaw had complete confidence Mr. Shaw's mail was forward- trip and after Shaw's prelim- in his doing this. ed to my office." He added inary hearing. that "even today" be receives Alcock then asked if, prior to Phelan then produced a bill mail for Shaw at his office. the fall of 1966, Biddison lived for the room he occupied at the Biddison, questioned about with Shaw. He answered that Dunes Hotel during his stay change of address forms, said from 1946 until 1948 they lived from March 4 to March 7, 1967. he executed them for client's at 537 Barracks and from 1948 He said he first saw Garrison in his real estate business. He until 1950 they lived at 906 in Las Vegas March 5 and was then shown a state exhibit, Esplanade. Biddison said that talked to him at the Sands Ho- a change of address cancella- Shaw owned 906 Esplanade. tel. He said Garrison gave him tion directing that mall for Alcock asked Biddison if he two documents, and he identi- Shaw re-directed to 1414 Char- received mail for anyone else fied one as the Sciambra memo . tres should be delivered to 1313 at 1414 Chartres. He named a Dauphine, Shaw's home. C. C. Bunker and a Sherman Phelan Was Given Biddison repeated that, to the Schroder, both of whom he Documents to Read best of his knowledge, no Shaw identified as one-time house mail was re-directed to 1414 guests, and he said that from Phalen said he thinks Garri- Chartres. 1963 on he has received mail son gave him two documents March 6, and the presentation "Do you know the postman for his invalid mother, his de- followed a series of conferences. who delivers mail to your ceased father, and Social Secur- home?" ity checks for his mother. He said after he received the document he returned to his "Yes, I do." "Other names escape me," he hotel room and read them sev- "Do you know this man's added. name?" Hr 'old Alcock he sold his eral times. He mentioned six readings and Dymond asked "I do now," said Biddison, black Cadillac in late fall of "Hardiman, James Hardiman." 1966, and he said he never why, and Phelan said because (Hardiman testified earlier loaned his automobile to his there were so many discrepan- for the state.) house guests. cies in them. Alcock asked Biddison If he He told Alcock he was not Alcock objected t h a t the Sciambra memo had already had ever had any difficulties subpenaed to appear as a wit- with Hardiman, and Biddison ness but appeared of his own been read to the jury, and Phe- said no. lan could not express an opinion Biddison was then asked if about it in their presence. Dymond asked the witness to try to answer the question with- Clem Bertrand." out expressing an opinion; and sassination was in the Feb. 27 after a pause, Judge Haggerty Argument Ensues memorandum to Garrison and that after some explanation, added; "It's almost impossi- Over Defense Question ble." Sciambra said, "No." Dymond said he realized that Dymond asked for Sciam- Judge Haggerty ruled that and then asked Phelan what he bra's reply, but the state ob- Sciambra did not distinctly deny did with the documents. Phelan jected. Arguing began, and the the question, and that the de- said he made copies and re- jury was ordered out of the fense could proceed to get an- turned the originals to Garrison. courtroom Dymond maintained swers from Phelan. He said he did not tell him any- that Sciambra testified as a Phelan was able to say wheth- thing at the time, and he be- witness and denied making a er he asked Sciambra about the certain statement to Phelan, lieves he spoke with him one omission of anything about the more time. that there was not a conflict assassination plot in the Feb. in the testimony of two wit-1 Phelan said he left Las Vegas 27, 1967, memo. He replied, "I March 7, returned to his home certainly did." in Long Beach, Calif., and re- "What was Mr. Sciambra's re- turned to New Orleans to cover nesses, that the defense had a ply?" asked Dymond. Shaw's preliminary hearing for right to impeach certain state- "He said I didn't know what the Post. ments by Sciambra. the hell I was talking about," He said he was In the court- The defense maintained that said Phelan. "That I was at room for the testimony, and it laid the proper foundation wrong that there was nothing he believes that the day after for impeaching Sciambra in its about the plot in the memo." the hearing ended he called questioning, and Judge Nagger. Phelan said he told Sciambra, Garrison "and told him I was ty indicated that he would "I'll bet you my job on the terribly disturbed by the tes- study the testimony during the Saturday Evening Post it you'll timony V Perry Raymond lunch break and rule on It after bet your job on the district at- Russo." the trial was resumed. torney's staff. We will read it Alcock objected, but was over- The afternoon session was and find out who is right. I got ruled. more than 55 minutes late in no bet." Phelan said that, shortly after starting as the court waited for talking with Garrison on the a transcript of the testimony of Witness Alleges telephone. he went to Garrison's Sciambra. The defense was He Asked for Notes home and arrived about 6 or 7 seeking to throw the door open In response to a question, p. m. for questioning of Phelan by Phelan said the next day he Dymond asked who else was banking on an article pertaining went to the office to clear up present, and Phelan said Mrs. to prior contradictory state- the discrepancy. He said he told Garrison and the Garrison chil- ments. This was vital to the de- Sciambra it could be cleared up dren. fense, so t h a t. it could have by his producing the original Dymond asked Phelan what Phelan tell what Sciambra re- notes. " I assumed if it was he told Garrison. lated to him in a meeting at heard," said Phelan, "that there "I told him there was a com- Garrison's house. was a note made of it. I told plete discrepancy between Finally at 2:27 p.m., Judge him, 'Get your notes.' " what Mr. Russo told in Sciam- Haggerty and the state and de- "W h a t other discrepancies bra's memo and what he testi- fense returned to the courtroom. were found in the memo?" fied to on the stand," answered In the 57-minute wait, spectators Phelan. asked Dymond. used the time to visit with each "I object," said Alcock. "He Dymond asked for Garrison's other and compare notes. One is asking for this man's reaction: and Phelan said, priest leaned back In his chair opinion." "His jaw dropped a little bit." and appeared to be napping Dymond agreed, a n d re- And what did he do after Dymond read the questions phrased the question, "Were picking up his jaw?" that he wanted to ask Phelan, there any other matters dis- Phelan said Garrison made and Judge Haggerty said to cussed?" a telephone call. Dymond asked bring the jury back. what the result was, and Phe- Phelan said there were. "We lan said Sciambra arrived at With the jury in, Dymond went over one line at great the Garrison home. He said asked Phelan, "Referring to the length," he said. that, in the meantime, William meeting at the Garrison home There was a pause as Phelan Gurvich had also come to the with William Gurvich, you, was furnished a copy of the house. Sciambra and Garrison, did you Sciambra memo. "The main Dymond asked the witness if ask Mr. Sciambra why the re- point is on Page 6," said Phelan. he said anything to Sciambra, port of his interview with Perry "I object," protested Alcock. and Phelan began, "Yes, I told Raymond Russo in Baton Rouge "He just can't go down the him that in his report on his Feb. 27, 1967, didn't contain any- memo and read -it to the jury." interview with Mr. Russo in thing concerning the assassina- Phelan, after Dymond re- Baton Rouge that there was no tion plot?" phrased the lead-in, said, "I information whatsoever about Alcock immediately objected. pointed out to Sciambra that an assassination plot, or that Dymond explained that Sciam- Russo In his preliminary hear- Mr. Shaw knew Lee Oswald bra in his testimony before the ing testimony said he s a w or that Mr. Russo said he knew trial was asked whether he had Shaw three times b e f or e, Mr. Shaw as Clay Bertrand or claimed the account of the as- while it said only twice in the Selambra memo. The one

time not mentioned was tne party at which the assassina- tion plot presumably occurred. I told Garrison that I thought Sciamhra could count to three. Our conversation centered largely on this. I said it was absolutely incredible that a lawyer could go to Baton Rouge and interview a po- tential witness to the crime ol the century, write a 3,500- page memo and leave out the crime. I said if he heard Russo describe the plot and came back and write one paragraph on the meeting, he would have to mention the plot." Phelan next told of a meeting with Russo, pre-arranged by Sciambra, in Baton Rouge. He said he took along Matt Her- iron, a New Orleans photograph- er who shot pictures for the Saturday Evening Post. We talked several hours," said Phelan. He gave me Liss Continued In S:c. I. Page 10 Continued from Sec. 1, Page 14 • Shaw. The reason I didn't was that if I got into a room with background of how he appeared Shaw, I would know he was not as a witness. I told him I was the man. And what would I do going to use the Sciambra then? I could run somewhere— memo in my Saturday Evening California, Mexico, become a Post story, and I asked him if beatnik. But I could never run he would make corrections on from myself." it. He read it line by line and made four specific corrections Dymond attempted to ques- and a comment." tion Phelan about statements by Russo pertaining to "reality These were the corrections, and fantasy—not knowing the according to Phelan: difference between the two," —Al Landry, not his mother, but Judge Haggerty sustained told Russo that David W. Fer- a state objection. rie had taken him out of the country. Then Dymond asked Phe- —Russo said he, Landry and lan if Russo ever expressed Ferrie met at a place next door any fear of reprisals from to the Intellect Bar and not the Garrison H he should change his testimony. Intellect itself. —Ferrie had never admitted Again Alcock objected, but —PC 10 by The Asset Ivied Press. Judge Haggerty allowed Phe- to Russo that he was a homo- JAMES R. PHELAN lan to answer. sexual. Writer testifies. —Russo said that he had not "Yes," was Phelan's reply. been hypnotized before. a priest?' Prietan said it did. "He repeatedly said he was Russo Allegedly Noted There was another legal sorry he had come forward as hassle, but Judge Haggerty al- a witness and felt trapped. If Two Meetings Listed lowed the defense to continue he tried to change his story, "Did he take exception to on the same line. Garrison would charge him and mentioning that he (Russo) had "What was the statement?" he would lose his job. He was only seen Shaw twice, as the asked Dymond. memo read?" asked Dymond. "Russo right out said to me, very fearful of losing his job." Phelan replied, "I had under- 'if Jim Garrison knew what I "Tender the witness," said lined that line. As he was read- told my priest in Baton Rouge, Dymond. Judge Haggerty called ing through the memo, Russo he would go through the ceiling. stopped and said, 'I should have I told my priest I wanted to said three times. Usually I am meet with Clay Shaw and be pretty careful about what I say, sure of my identification of a recess before the state went but maybe I said only twice.' " Shaw." into cross-examination of Phe- Phelan said he asked Russo Phelan said he told Russo, lan. why there was no mention of 'For God's sake, you got up in Following the recess, court the assassination plot. Phelan court and put your hand over resumed at 3:50 p.m. and Al- said Russo told him he men- the man's head and said he cock conducted the cross-ex- tioned the assassination plot was the person and now you amination of Phelan. after he got to New Orleans. want to make sure you were Alcock, assistant district at- Phelan said his next meeting right!' " torney, began the questioning with Russo was the last week Phelan said a meeting with around a phone interview con- Shaw was suggested for Russo. of May, 1967. In the meantime, ducted by WDSU radio with Phelan said he went to the of- he had gone to New York and Phelan in April of 1967. Alcock fice of William Wegmann and written a Post story on the Gar- asked if Phelan made a corn- rison probe. As a result of a told Shaw what Russo had said. "Shaw agreed to it im- iment on the show to the effect call to Herron, inquiring about that "Mr. Sciambra had better the local reaction to the article, mediately," said Phelan. "And Russo backed off." watch out because I taped the Phelan said he called Russo Perry Russo interview." and set up the meeting. It was Witness Is Asked Phelan replied that he prob- at Russo's home "near City ably did make the statement. Park" in New Orleans. If Russo Gave Reason "Did you tape "What did you ask him dur- Dymond asked Phelan if Rus- it?" asked Alcock, referring to the Rus- ing that first meeting in New so ever gave him reason why Orleans?" asked Dymond. he (Russo) didn't go to such a so interview. "I didn't ask him anything." meeting. "No," answered Phelan. said Phelan. "We played a "He said if word of It leaked "Then that was a lie?" little pool and then, returning back to Garrison, Garrison "If you wish to call it that." to his home, Russo out of the would clobber him," said Phe- Alcock then concentrated on blue made a statement to me lan. the subject of whether Phelan on the sidewalk." Dymond questioned Phelan pointed out the discrepancy in The state immediately object- If there were other reasons giv- Sciambra's memorandum to ei- ed, saying "no predicate had en by Russo; and after anoth- ther Sciambra or Garrison. Al- been Ink! for the statement." er legal spat, Phelan was able cock wanted to know how Dymond asked Phelan, "Does to tell another reason. Phelan could get the impression this have anything to do with "Russo said to me, 'I lied to that a conspiratorial plot was you the first time about why I not involved in Sciambra's mem- didn't attend a meeting with orandum relating to his inter- Alcock retorted. "So you nau a ial meeting?" Alcock pressed. space problem?" rogation of Russo. Phelan then quoted Russo Phelan explained that, al- "I didn't get an impression. as saying he was first told of It simply wasn't there (in the though the article was cut, he the conspiracy plot after be kept all statements taken for memo)," Phelan replied. Then, came to New Orleans to be Phelan quoted Sciambra as his story "in case the article interrogated by the District was challenged." saying that he was "incorrect- Attorney—and not during the ly describing" his memoran- "I have supportive evi- earlier Sciambra questioning dence," Phelan told Alcock. dum, but later amended him- In Baton Rouge. self by saying that if the mate- Alcock then turned the ques- rial about a plot is not in the Phelan also quoted Russo as tioning to Phelan's role as an memo then "I forgot to put it saying "I'm usually pretty employe of the National Broad- in." careful about what I say." casting Co. in May, 1967. Phe- "Did Sciambra and Garrison Phelan pointed out that Russo lan testified that he was em- help make arrangements for made a comment that lie should ployed for five weeks by NBC your trip to Baton Rouge to in- have told Sciambra he saw to work on a White Paper docu- terview Russo?" Alcock asked. Shaw three times rather than mentary about the Garrison "Yes," replied Phelan. two. case. "Don't you feel that was In- "When did you start writing Phelan said he worked with consistent with their trying to the article for the Saturday producer Fred Freed and NBC hide something?" Evening Post?" Alcock asked. reporter Walter Sheridan on the When Alcock asked this ques- "About two or three days aft- television venture. tion, defense attorney Dymond er I had the interview with Mr.i "What was the purpose of objected on the grounds it called Russo." the White Paper?" Alcock quer- for a conclusion by the witness. ied. Judge Haggerty sustained the "Did you consider his an- "To report on the Garrison objection. swers highly important and investigation." "How long was your inter- critical . , that Sciambra was "To report on it or to wreck view with Perry Russo?" Alcock a liar?" it?" Alcock countered. continued. "Yes, sir." "To report on it," Phelan "Between two and three "How many words was your said again. hours." article?" "What was your assignment?" "When did you start question- "Six thousand." "To explore the discrepancies ing him about the content of "Would you say the article is In Mr. Russo's story." the memorandum?" a criticism of the investiga- "Hadn't you done that in Ba- "At the end of the interview." tion?" ton Rouge?" Alcock then wanted Phelan "I certainly do." "Yes." to explain why he delayed Alcock then centered his questioning Russo about the dis- questioning on why Phelan did Alcock Asks Purpose crepancy in the Sciambra memo not mention in his article the of Second Meeting point that Russo did not tell which he (Phelan) considered Alcock then wanted to know so "critical." Sciambra about a meeting be- the purpose of the second in- tween Oswald, Ferrie and Phelan Calls Russo terview with Russo. Shaw. "Can you explain?" he Phelan explained that he call- 'Very Talkative Boy' asked. ed Russo from New York and "Well, certainly," answered that Russo asked him to come "He wanted to talk to me," I Phelan. "it (the article) con- very by and see him if he was ever Phelan replied. "He's b cerns information from the Sci- in Louisiana again. Phelan quot- talkative boy. He got to telling ambra memorandum and that ed Russo as saying that he me the background. When he Perry Russo told two stories." thought the Post story was got through talking, I gave him "But since you were so criti- the memo." cal about Sciambra's memo, "pretty good" and "couldn't understand all the hullaballoo" Phelan said Russo read the why didn't you put it in the about it. memo, corrected four state- article?" ments in it and made a com- Alcock asked Phelan if the ment on the section where he Story in Magazine names Guy Bannister and claimed he saw Shaw twice. James Lewallen ever were "It took him quite a while to Cut to Fit Space mentioned In the Russo inter- read it. I sat there and made "We had confirmed the truth view. notes," said Phelan. of what we were printing," Phelan said Bannister was When Russo finished reading Phelan asserted, explaining mentioned because of specula- the memo, "I asked him only that the original article ran too tion that the man identified by one question." Phelan testified. long and had to be cut because Russo might be Bannister and "Only one? About something of lack of space in the maga- not Shaw. zine. you considered critical?" coun- "In other words, you suggest- tered Alcock, adding: "This article is about the ed to a state witness he might "Isn't it a fact that Perry whole investigation, sir," Phe- have been wrong?" lan told Alcock. "It was on the asked this question while you "Yes, with qualification. I were going out the door?" whole assassination story . . . not the Sciambra memo. I had repeatedly told Russo that, if "No," Phelan replied tersely. to tell it in 6,900 words." his story was true, he should "Isn't it a factthat Perry tell it the same way. I never Russo never denied telling "You had to cut the article?" Sciambra about a conspirator- once suggested he change his going to get story. He was not certain of a lawyer who's a Garner a photo of David Fer- the identification of Shaw. He friend of mine and I'm going rie. Asked if she had seen that was a boy tortured and in to wreck him," Phelan quoted man before, Mrs. Garner re- real agony." Garrison as saying. plied that he was the same Phelan said Garrison did not man who rang her doorbell "Then why did you say Guy name Andrews per se, but he Bannister?" either the night of President felt that he meant him. (An. Kennedy's assassination or the "Because of the similarity drews was indicted and con- night afterward. between them (Bannister and victed on a perjury charge Mrs. Garner said Ferric was Shaw)." brought against him by the Or- alone and came "after dark." "Have you ever seen Guy Ban- leans Parish Grand Jury.) "He stayed a few minutes nister?" and when I found out be Garrison Informed wasn't someone Important, I Phelan said he learned of the of Phelan's Arrival asked him to leave," Mrs. annister - Shaw speculation Phelan said after he arrived Garner said, explaining that om Freed and Sheridan. in New Orleans for the NBC as- she thought Ferrie mght have Phelan said Russo expressed a signment, he relayed informa- been an FBI agent seeking desire for legal help and asked tion to Garrison, informing him information about Oswald. Phelan for advice. "I told him that he was in town. Phelan Mrs. Garner said Oswald's I had only one piece of advice said he told Larry Lamarca wife, Marina, left the apart- for him—tell the flat out truth," and Pershing Gervais to "Tell ment during the day between Phelan testified. Big Jim I'm in town and that Sept. 21-23, 1963, and that Os- I'm not hiding from anybody." wald stayed a short while long- Phelan said Russo maintained er before leaving that same he did not have enough money Phelan said his lawyers had night. for a lawyer. "1 relayed the in- advised him not to come to New Under Dymond's questioning, formation about a lawyer to Orleans again "because of Mr. Mrs. Garner testified that Os- Freed. Freed said there was a Garrison's ruthlessness with wald lived in the apartment the well-known lawyer who would people who criticize him." entire months of July and Au- take his case without a fee." Other than Russo, Phelan gust, and that she saw him dur- Phelan said he told Russo said he talked to two other persons for the White Paper ing that time at least once a this, but also stressed that he assignment — week. "I used to see him catch- ing the bus once a week, may- (Russo) would have to call the one-time roommate of lawyer himself and ask for his Ferrie, and Marten Mancu o, be more." help. ex-wife of or on Nove , a Dymond tendered the witness at this point. Alcock wanted to know just bar oprator who figured in the Garrison investigation. In a short cross-examination Phelan's cross - examination by Alcock, Mrs. Garner said what "case" this lawyer was ended at 4:34 p.m. she did not have any lengthy Ito handle for Russo. . Following him to the stand conversations with Oswald while was starnee, the housewife l'Russo Kept Saying from 4911 Magazine st. who he was staying at the apart- He Needed Lawyer' rented an apartment to Oswald ment. She said he paid the $61 Phelan replied that Russo in the summer of 1963. monthly rent in cash. felt he needed a lawyer. He said Mrs. Garner said Oswald stay- the matter of a lawyer was dis- ed at the apartment from early Witness Asked cussed four or five times be- May to mid-September of 1963.j About Apartment cause Russo kept bringing it up. She testified that she saw him Alcock wanted to know if the Concentrating again on Rus- about once a week waiting for so's identification of Shaw, Al- a bus. condition of the apartment was 'cock asked Phelan, "Don't you "Did you ever see him with weeall Perry Russo saying he'd a beard?" asked defense attor- rather be 1,000 per cent sure ney Dymond. rather than 100 per cent? "No," she replied. "Absolutely not," replied Phe- "Was he ever a dirty, un- lan. kempt person?" "Did you tell Russo he would "He was very neat. Never be a patsy if Clay Shaw were unkempt." found not guilty?" "Did you ever see the de- "Yes, sir," said Phelan, ex- fendant, Clay Shaw, with Os- plaining that Russo was the . wald?" man who made the accusation "I've never seen him (Shaw) and that Garrison's case rested before his picture was pub- solely on his testimony. lished in the newspapers." Mrs. "Did you tell him that Garri- Garner also testified that she son would turn on him?" never heard Shaw's name men- "Yes, with explanation." Phe- tioned by Oswald. lan then explained Garrison once told him in Las Vegas how Witness Identifies he was going to discredit at- Photo of Ferrie torney Dean Andrews Jr. "I'm Dymond then shownd Mra Conversation to DA objected and asked that the wit- ness be asked if there was a O'Donnell said he immediate- word synonymous with "truth" ly went to Garrison's office and in the report, and that that part reported the conversation "and of the report be read. the following day I typed a re- Judge Haggerty overruled the port on it and brought it up- objection. 1. stairs to give Mr. Garrison a Lt. O'Donnell said he could copy of my report." not find the word "truth" in the i Dymond said he was through report with the witness and tendered a Alcock asked the w2i tness if him to the state for cross-exam- Russo told him he was being ination. bombarded by newsmen. On cross - examination, Al- Lt. O'Donnell said Russo told cock's first question was if Lt. O'Donnell had tape recorded the conversation. him "he was under extreme "No, sir," he said. pressure from newsmen and Alcock then asked him If Jim Garrison." when he was in the DA's of- fice with Garrison, James V. "Is that in your report?'' Burnes and Russo he had re- peatedly asked Russo if he'd Pressure Mentioned like to hear a tape of the in Report—Officer conversation. Lt. O'Donnell said it was not. Lt. O'Donnell said he had said but instead there was a men- Nritinemsergi "arresigy:ture. this because Russo denied he tion that Russo said he was un- "ever told me Clay Shaw was der pressures, Farmer Oswald landlady. not at Ferrie's apartment," and he attempted to use the possi- "If you're asking me is my "dirty" after the Oswalds bility of a tape recording to get report word-for-word with our moved, Russo to "admit to what he conversation, then it is not." Mrs. Garner replied that "ev- told me." "Is it the conversation, in es- erything was broken" includ- "Perry Russo did a double- sence?" ing the stove and refrigerator. take," Lt. O'Donnell said. "Do you recall making this Alcock ended his cross-ex- "Do you remember repeated- statement, 'If necessary I will amination and Dymond came ly saying you had a tape re- produce a tape.'?" hack with one question on re- cording and he said, 'Let me Lt. O'Donnell repeated that hear it!' " direct. he had already explained whY Lt. O'Donnell said Sciambra "Did Oswald pay the rent be said that; that "Perry Rus- had asked him the same ques- so had done a retake; promptly?" he asked. he had tion and "I told him there was told me Clay Shaw was not at "The first month he did. no tape." But after that I had to go David Ferrie's apartment." after him." Four or Five Copies Lt. O'Donnell then said that - The questioning of Lt. O'Don of Report Made Sciambra "falsely led me to nell began at 5:95 p.m. and aft- the District Attorney's office, er getting the officer's back- Alcock then asked the witness, leading me to believe I was to ground into the record, Dymond how many copies he had made give someone a test." He said began asking him questions of his report and what distribu- he waited for an hour in the of- about his June 19, 1907, confer- tion he had made of them. Lt. fice and then he was called ence with Russo. O'Donnell said he made four or into Garrison's office and his After giving Russo's state- five copies and he said he gave secretary was there "taking ment as to why he testified as one copy to the DA's office; notes at this time." the original to the chief of po- he did, Dymond asked if during Russo was there, he said, llee; one copy to the this conversation Russo express- chief of and Garrison asked for a copy detectives, and the remaining ed an interest in seeing Garri- of his report. Lt. O'Donnell copy he kept. son's case In its entirety. said Garrison did not have his Alcock asked who had the "Yes, he did," answered Lt. copy and he returned to his of- original and Lt. O'Donnell said O'Donnell. fice, obtained a copy and Dymond asked if Russo had either "you (the DA's office) brought it. He said it was given any reason for this, and or the superintendent (Joseph given to Russo to read. the witness said Russo "asked I. Giarrusso.). me if I could let him see the He said he gave copies to no Lt. O'Donnell continued that case of Mr. Garrison." lie said one else. after Russo read It, he said Russo indicated he wanted to Alcock asked Lt. O'Donnell "most of it is true, except I see it to see how strong it was If on direct questioning he didn't tell O'Donnell Clay Shaw was as this would assist him in de- said Russo stated he was pre- not" at the party. ciding how he would testify. pared to "tell the truth" be- He said it was at this point "I told him to examine his fore Dymond turned him an, that he attempted to obtain conscience and not lean on what and the witness said this was from Russo an admission Mr. Garrison has . .," Lt. correct. that he bad made that state- I O'Donnell said. Alcock then asked if the word meat, and "I made the state- 'truth" appeared in his report meat relating to a tape re- Officer Reported on the conversation. Dymond, I cording." "You were lying then about 'the tape?" "Well, you have notes there. I don't know if I said, 'I have a tape,' or 'Would you like to hear a tape'. You have the statement; Mr. Garrison's sec- retary was taking it down." .Adcock then showed the re- port of the discussion in Garri- son's office to the witness and he studied it for several min- utes. After finishing it, he told Al- cock: "The notes state I could 'produce a tape, and I don't have a tape," "Did you say, 'I taped the conversation.'?" "I have no argument with that," he replied. Judge Haggerty then an- nounced he was recessing the trial since he expected more cross-examination and then re- direct and re-cross.