Vol. 640 Wednesday, No. 2 24 October 2007 DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DA´ IL E´ IREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Wednesday, 24 October 2007. Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 489 Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 493 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 32 ……………… 508 Order of Business ……………………………… 508 Estimates for Public Services 2007: Leave to Introduce …………………………… 512 Referral to Select Committee ………………………… 512 Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions: Motion ………………… 512 Houses of the Oireachtas Commission: Motion …………………… 513 International Agreements: Referral to Select Committee ………………… 513 Congress of the Universal Postal Union: Referral to Select Committee …………… 513 European Council Meetings: Statements ……………………… 514 Pre-Budget Outlook: Motion (resumed) ……………………… 537 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment Priority Questions …………………………… 542 Visit of Ugandan Delegation …………………………… 551 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Priority Questions ……………………………… 551 Other Questions ……………………………… 557 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 573 Pre-Budget Outlook: Motion (resumed) ……………………… 574 Private Members’ Business Agrifood Industry: Motion (resumed) ……………………… 629 Adjournment Debate Hospital Services ……………………………… 667 Regional Airports ……………………………… 671 School Services ……………………………… 675 Garda Investigations …………………………… 677 Message from Seanad ……………………………… 680 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 681 489 490 DA´ IL E´ IREANN Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: He does not want it in his garden. ———— The Taoiseach: In his view, some of the pro- De´ Ce´adaoin, 24 Deireadh Fo´mhair 2007. posals that were previously examined did not Wednesday, 24 October 2007. take account of the most modern technology and if we go with the most modern technology we ———— would not need the number of incinerators that had been envisaged. Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar Deputy Enda Kenny: That does not answer the 10.30 a.m. question. The question is whether we will have eight incinerators or two incinerators. I remind ———— the Taoiseach that the Minister stated on Thurs- Paidir. day, 11 October: “Ireland requires no more than two incinerators to deal with waste which cannot Prayer. be recycled or processed, rather than the eight ———— that are currently planned.” Dublin City Council has been working for quite a long time on a major incinerator in Poolbeg. Leaders’ Questions. Obviously the city council and local authorities Deputy Enda Kenny: One of the most must take account of Government policy. Was important responses required from Government the Minister just spoofing when he stated the is clarity on its policies and positions. As I under- country needs no more than two incinerators stand it, until recently, Government policy on the instead of eight? Does that mean there will be no disposal of waste was to incinerate it and having incinerator in Dublin city? I have put some examined and analysed the capacity of inciner- straight questions to the Taoiseach, and I hope he ators, eight were to be located throughout the will clarify the situation in his reply. regions. The Minister for the Environment, Heri- tage and Local Government, Deputy John The Taoiseach: It does not mean that. As the Gormley, who is not here this morning, seems to Deputy knows there are contractual commit- have changed that policy. The situation is quite ments and a considerable amount of work has confusing. Deputy Gormley states there is only been completed on the Poolbeg incinerator. However, that does not remove the need to look capacity for two incinerators in the country. Will at modern technology for that incinerator. That the Taoiseach tell us about Government policy in is the point the Minister has made. We have seen this regard; is it proposed to have two or eight where in at least one case and possibly two, the incinerators? capacity of the proposed incinerators has been increased. The number of incinerators required The Taoiseach: The Minister for the Envir- depends on the capacity of each. onment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley announced before the Deputy Enda Kenny: That is a load of rubbish. summer that the previous position would be reviewed—— The Taoiseach: We should take account of the most modern technology. That is the point the Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Because he did Minister made. not want it in his own constituency. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Is that landfill? The Taoiseach: He does not influence the decisions on planning issues, such as on capacity. The Taoiseach: We want to move away from Deputy Gormely took the view that we should landfill. We should take account of the most mod- look at the modern technologies and the new ern technology available and as we have not systems being used in the Nordic countries and if started to build the incinerators, why should we use technology that is six or seven years out of we did that we would not need the number of date? That is a valid point for the Minister to incinerators that had been previously listed. make. There are four major applications for inciner- ators in the planning process. Based on his exam- Deputy Eamon Gilmore: At the last general ination of new technologies, perhaps we will not election, there was one issue on which all political need eight incinerators — four was the number parties were agreed, namely that the level of mentioned in a number of reports. In two appli- social welfare pension should be increased to cations, the capacity of the incinerator for which \300 per week. In addition to committing to planning permission is being sought is higher than increase the pension to \300 per week, the what was originally planned. Let us be very clear, Taoiseach’s party also promised to cut the PRSI the Minister’s view—— rate by 2%. When that promise was made, the 491 Leaders’ 24 October 2007. Questions 492 [Deputy Eamon Gilmore.] the short term and the longer term, rather than Government had in its possession an actuarial allow the matter to drift. review of the social insurance fund — the Government refused to publish it at that time but Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I thank the Taoiseach it was published last week — that showed that for giving me all that information about the the social insurance fund would begin to go into Green Paper on pensions. I did not ask him about deficit in 2010, in three years time and according the Green Paper on pensions. I asked him about to the analysis that has been done since, the the actuarial report, carried out by Mercer Con- shortfall could be as high as \12 billion by 2016. sulting, on the social insurance fund. Let me raise I have three questions related to that. When will it a second time. Do I understand from the pensioners get \300 per week? Will the Taoiseach Taoiseach’s reply that the \300 pension will be go ahead with the promised reduction of 2% in introduced in five years’ time? He said it would PRSI? How does he propose to square the circle? be introduced at the end of the term of Govern- The cost of the promise on PRSI is \640 million ment, by which I presume he means in five years’ and the cost of the \300 pension is just over \2 time. Is that correct? billion per year. During the election the The Taoiseach promised during the general Taoiseach said he would make up the shortfall election campaign that the rate of PRSI contri- from general taxation. What increases in taxation bution would be cut from 4% to 2%. Will that does he intend to make up that shortfall? go ahead? How does he propose to fund it? The Taoiseach had available to him, at the time he The Taoiseach: Ten years ago, when I took made the promise, the information that the social over as Taoiseach, the pension was \70 and we insurance fund would go into deficit in three have brought it to \200. As we promised, we will years’ time. Will he go ahead with the cut in the bring it to \300 in the lifetime of this Govern- PRSI rate and how does he propose to finance ment. On the issue of our tax commitments, we that cut? intend to implement our policies over the five- year period as we have done in the past two The Taoiseach: Perhaps Deputy Gilmore does Governments. not want me to do anything on the old age pen- We published the Green Paper on pensions last sion until 2012—— week, in fulfilment of a major commitment, not in the programme for Government but in Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I want the Taoiseach Towards 2016. That Green Paper reviews the to do it now. pensions system, it identifies the challenges and includes all the issues that will affect the social The Taoiseach: ——but that is not the policy insurance fund in the years ahead, such as demo- of this Government. We do not want to go back graphic change, issues regarding the sustainability to what his colleague did and give such miserly of the pension system, pensioner incomes, the pension increases. We refuse to go down that contribution of various elements of the pension road. Our practice has been to give significant system, including the social welfare system and increases. work flexibility. They will affect whether it is in surplus or deficit. The Government has set out its Deputy Eamon Gilmore: Answer the question. position in the Green Paper and we have already engaged in discussions with the social partners. (Interruptions). The issue has been opened out to wider debate in the next nine months or so and, based on that Deputy Dermot Ahern: We have a record on debate, we will make the decision, not just for the old age pensions, the Labour Party does not. Our short term, which is obviously important for the record stands for itself.