What’s New Podcast Transcript Season 3, Episode 14: Inside the Pop Music World March 24, 2020

Host: Dan Cohen, Dean of Libraries and Vice Provost for Information Collaboration at Northeastern University.

Guest: Bonzai Caruso, a five-time Grammy-winning recording engineer and producer.

Dan Cohen: Host (00:06): Making a hit song involves inspiration, talent, and more than a little luck. How are songs created in today's high tech recording studios, assembled in software and beamed around the world? And how has this process and the global exchange of music changed the sound of pop music itself? Today on What's New, we'll look at the technology and art of contemporary pop music with the insights of a Grammy- winning producer. Welcome back to What's New. I'm Dan Cohen. And joining me from his recording studio in Las Vegas is Bonzai Caruso a five-time Grammy-winning recording engineer and producer. Since the 1980s, Bonzai has worked with top reggae musicians as well as pop stars. And he has helped to create dozens of gold and platinum singles and albums. Welcome to the show, Bonzai.

Bonzai Caruso (01:09): Hey, thanks for having me.

Dan Cohen: Host (01:11): We are delighted to have a Grammy-winning producer on the show. I can't say I double checked our guest list for the podcast, but I'm pretty sure you're the first guest with the name Bonzai. So, I thought we could start maybe just by asking how you got that name.

Bonzai Caruso (01:24): It's kind of a term we used. I used to race motocross back in the East Coast. I raced at Raceway Park in Englishtown, New Jersey. It's kind of a term used in motocross, basically meaning kamikaze. I was a crazy dirt bike racer. So, just kind of since I was nine years old. So, it just kind of stuck. Once I got a job in the studio it just... Yeah, it just really clicked.

Dan Cohen: Host (01:48): Yeah, it sounds like a great name to have, both for motocross and for the music studio. So, how did you actually make the transition from racing to the music industry? Which is... I've always heard is really hard to break into and especially into something like pop music production.

Bonzai Caruso (02:03): Yeah, I mean, I was blessed to just been attracted to music so much as a kid. And it was like a safe place for me and it was a very emotional thing for me. So, I started playing guitar. I was about 13 or 14 years old. As soon as I graduated high school, I was 17 and I found out about a school in Manhattan called the Institute of Audio Research. It was part of NYU, I believe at the time or I could move my credits to NYU if I wanted to, but it was a fantastic course. And from there I got a job in the studio right away, used to be

1 owned by Todd Rundgren, a great songwriter from the 70s. And yeah, started interning at the studio, working 90 hours a week, making $5 a day.

Dan Cohen: Host (02:50): Well, and what were you actually doing? I mean, were you on the mixing boards or were you really setting up the cymbal for a drum kit or something like that?

Bonzai Caruso (02:59): Yeah, it started out with cleaning toilets and running for sandwiches. But as soon as everybody left, I'd spend the night tinkering around with stuff, trying to figure out how it all worked.

Dan Cohen: Host (03:10): Yeah and I assume Todd Rundgren had a pretty... I mean, he's known for not only songwriting, but lush productions and layering and things like that. It must've been a great sort of a tutoring experience.

Bonzai Caruso (03:22): Yeah, unfortunately I came in at end of his ownership of the studio and he had sold it soon after I started there. So, I didn't really get to work with him very often.

Dan Cohen: Host (03:31): So, who did you start with?

Bonzai Caruso (03:33): Oh, in those days-

Dan Cohen: Host (03:34): Or some names that maybe our audience would have heard about?

Bonzai Caruso (03:36): Oh, in those days my first sessions were Spyro Gyra who's a jazz thing. Whitney Houston's mom, Sissy Houston, did a gospel record with her. Actually, she would bring Whitney Houston in to do backgrounds and harmonies and stuff. And Whitney and I are pretty much the same age. So, we got along pretty well. Yeah, it was that. And then it was... This was 1982, it was the start of hip-hop and drum machines were a new thing that had started being implemented in making music. And so I got to learn how to program drums and started working with all the hip-hop guys were calling and say, "We want to work with that kid. What's his name, Bonzai?" Knowledge of the drum machine and how it syncs up and works and all that. And it was guys like Melle Mel, Grandmaster Flash, all the Africa Islam, Afrika Bambaataa, were the fore founders of hip-hop really. So, it was a really good time for me. I was very blessed to be there then.

Dan Cohen: Host (04:34): That's great. So, you go from an artist like Sissy Houston who I think our audience should know. I mean, she sang on some of the most famous records and was part, obviously, of a famous family. And very much an analog music person to you working with hip-hop artists with, I assume, something like a Roland 808 drum machine or something like that, also being tracked in to the music.

2 Bonzai Caruso (04:57): Right? 808, there was a DMX, there was the LinnDrum. There's four or five new drum machines on the scene then.

Dan Cohen: Host (05:05): And were things digital beyond that? Or were those the sort of first digital machines in the studio?

Bonzai Caruso (05:11): Yeah, I mean, there were some synthesizers around that were starting to pop up. Yamaha came up with the DX7 which was all digital, was kind of cool and a couple of others. In terms of actual digital recording, no, that didn't come about until late 90s or mid-90s I would say, I guess.

Dan Cohen: Host (05:31): So, what was it like when you went into a studio with someone like a Grand Master Flash or Melle Mel or some of these early hip-hop stars? How did you put together a song at that point in the early 80s?

Bonzai Caruso (05:43): Yeah, it was quite different then. For instance, we'd have to sync up the drum machine to the tape using a time code, SMPTE time code or various other ways of syncing with a tone or a complex wave thing that it would hook up to. And keep the sync and then track the drums from right out of the machine, create the breaks. Or we would create the breaks after it was recorded by just muting things. And just record it and a lot of times they get... If there was three or four rappers on the song, they'd be all on out there on the mic simultaneously at the same time.

Dan Cohen: Host (06:21): At the same time.

Bonzai Caruso (06:22): Yeah, which was kind of cool. Doing everything in real time was neat.

Dan Cohen: Host (06:25): Yeah. So, it still had that feeling a little bit more of a live production than it is probably today, where I assume if you have three or four rappers there, they might even be in different continents at the same time recording.

Bonzai Caruso (06:36): Yeah, that's right.

Dan Cohen: Host (06:37): Or even at different times recording.

Bonzai Caruso (06:39): Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, it's quite different than the way we used to do it back then.

3 Dan Cohen: Host (06:44): I noticed in your discography that you've been particularly interested in reggae music and made a lot of connections to some pretty famous reggae musicians. How did you start to meet with those musicians? And how did your career flourish in that world?

Bonzai Caruso (07:02): It's a great story because I had done this record with this artist, her name is Diana King. I think she was signed to Sony, if I'm not mistaken. And so yeah, I did this record called Shy Guy with Diana King. And it got the attention of Stephen Marley and the Marley family because of the way the mix sounded. And so they rang me up and started a relationship with them working with them in Miami. Oh, my God. We started in '96 I think, we started working together. And we still, I was just with them last week. We are still working together 25 years later. So, that's how I got... All because of that one record. And then of course, working with Stephen and Damian, the calls just started coming in like crazy. And now I found myself doing reggae constantly, which is great. I love it.

Dan Cohen: Host (07:52): So, tell me about now. You're out there in Las Vegas in your recording studio. Just take our audience inside your recording studio. As you look around, what does it look like? I assume it looks very different than Todd Rundgren's studio in 1981 or 1982.

Bonzai Caruso (08:08): Yeah, oh, definitely. First of all I work out of several different studios here, big and small. But my own personal little room here at my place is very small. It's I think, my room is 12 foot by 12 foot and that's it. It's just mostly a mixing. I do a lot of mixing here, so everything's in the box, in Pro Tools or on my DAW. And I got lots of speakers set up one, two, three, four, five, six, seven pairs this week, to see how things translate from various sizes, various types of speakers and various sizes. But other than that, if you put three or four people in my room, it's overcrowded, it's tiny.

Bonzai Caruso (08:48): It's a small little place, but it works great. I've done the sound treatment so that the room is true. And true meaning what you hear here is pretty good representation of where it's going to... What it's going to sound like. Of course, always do the car check. Very important, check your productions and your mixes in the car and headphones, in the kitchen and everywhere else. But in terms of my studio, it's pretty small. It's well equipped, but it's pretty small.

Dan Cohen: Host (09:14): So, at this point, at the end of this significant technological transition in the industry. Are you mostly getting sound files from other places? Or people record with you for one day and then someone else records another part another day? What is the actual process at this point as you create new music?

Bonzai Caruso (09:33): It's pretty diverse in terms of... Because a lot of both. A lot of times I'm with the artists recording everything from the beginning, drums, bass, guitars, keyboards. And then taking it to mix and then a good part of my business of what I'm doing, yeah, because of technology, people are just sending me tracks, WAV files or Pro Tools sessions. I work mainly in Pro Tools. And from all over Africa, Australia,

4 London, I kind of miss traveling there though. It was nice. In a way, I know I do a lot less traveling now, but so it's a good mix of both. I work still in Jamaica a lot and Australia and in Europe and mostly in Miami too, a lot in Miami with those guys.

Dan Cohen: Host (10:21): Got it. I want to come back to this globalism of music, which I think is just so fascinating. And I'm just amazed when I look at the artists you've worked with. I mean, they really do span the entire globe and it's a fascinating kind of culture of music, global culture of music. But just sticking with the production itself, could you walk us through maybe a hit song or Grammy-winning album that you've produced? Of really how it's made from the early stages of the inception of a song or album through to the final stages, how does that work?

Bonzai Caruso (10:53): Sure. There's really no formula so to speak. I mean, there's 1,000 different ways to approach it and we do it 1,000 different ways. It really depends on the overall concept of the record. If it's an EP, if it's four or five songs or just a single or a full length album, so many different ways to approach it. It really has... So, much of it has to do with what the vision of the final content will be, what it's supposed to look like, feel like and sound like. So, that being said, if it's a band, you want to focus on the rhythm section first. Get the drums nice and tight, the bass, drums tight, guitar overdubs, all the parts arranged and figured out so that they work together.

Bonzai Caruso (11:36): And don't have a mishmash of guitar parts and keyboard parts and percussion parts all stepping on each other. So, there's a lot of that arrangement going into it and it really depends on the artist. Some artists just want to pull up a drum machine and whether it's a virtual one or a physical one and just make a beat and start vibing. There's really no formula. So, I mean, you could bang on... Take a stick and a garbage can and start banging on it and just start writing something.

Dan Cohen: Host (12:06): Right. What's the most unusual song you've ever produced in this way?

Bonzai Caruso (12:11): Oh, gee.

Dan Cohen: Host (12:12): Has anyone actually banged on a... Your desk or something?

Bonzai Caruso (12:16): Oh, yeah. I've made sounds by picking up a toolbox full of tools and screws and pliers and screwdrivers and just dropping it on the floor in the garage and micing it. It makes for a nice snare drum sound.

Dan Cohen: Host (12:31): Yeah, and you play other instruments as well? Guitar and programming drums and things like that, if the artist needs overlays.

5 Bonzai Caruso (12:39): I play, yeah. I play lots of instruments but very poorly. Just enough to write and come up with an idea. I'm not an entertainer by any means. I couldn't get up on a stage and perform. But I know enough I'll get to our piano to write and figure stuff out and come up with an idea. I'm mostly a percussionist. I do a lot of percussion and drum machine programming. I do a lot, which I love.

Dan Cohen: Host (13:03): That's phat. It really goes back to this, the early 80s hip-hop scene. It's fascinating that you continue to do that. Once you sort of get a basic recording, what's the interaction like with the artist as the two of you go back and forth to get to a final mix?

Bonzai Caruso (13:18): It's interesting because really depends on the project and the relationship between the producer and the artist and the engineer and whoever's involved on the creative level. Yeah. It's open communication, clear lines of communication, transparency, talking about ideas, laughing at each other and laughing at yourself. Coming up with a dumb idea that's not going to work. Or patting each other on the back saying, "Wow, that's brilliant. I would've never thought of that." So, it's drop your ego at the door and pick it up on the way out. Because unless you're the artist, of course, we need the ego for the artists. There's room for that.

Dan Cohen: Host (13:56): Right, I'm sure. I'm sure. Do you ever get in a fight with an artist? You sort of feel a song needs to go one direction and they think it needs to go another direction?

Bonzai Caruso (14:04): Yeah. I wouldn't call it a fight, but maybe just disagreements. And it may be a few words back and forth, but and then it's a big hug and we all laugh about it and it's all forget about it.

Dan Cohen: Host (14:15): Well, that's great.

Bonzai Caruso (14:16): Always keeping it positive. And I always try to keep it positive, because ultimately we have the same goal. We want to come up with... Let's make this song the best it can be.

Dan Cohen: Host (14:25): Right, right. I've noticed that once a song is done, you've also done dozens of remixes for artists, including some really high profile Mariah Carey, Madonna level folks. That to me is really also another big thing that's happened in the last say two decades is just the prominence of remixes when I go on Spotify. I see most hit songs do have multiple remixes. What's going on there? How do you get hired to do that? And what do you think the role of remixes are at this point?

Bonzai Caruso (14:56): Yeah, because it's a little bit different. In the early days, remixers were hired. Labels wanted to promote the song, the single, the artist, the record. And by let's say if it was more of a R&B tune, let's have a

6 version for the DJs to play at the clubs that maybe had a different beat, was a little bit faster, fun to dance to. Whereas the original one, not so much. So, originally it came about, it was a promotional tool for the labels to get the tune out there, so that you remembered that hook and go buy the record. It's a little bit different now. Everybody and her brother's doing remixes, but it's fun. I love doing remixes, don't get me wrong, it's a lot of fun. It's great, but now it's more... It's not as much promotional as it is just an alternate version that's available. And they used to release it on the B-side of the single was the remix now. Now with downloads and everything, you could have the remix or the original or both obviously. So, it's changed a little bit in that regard and-

Dan Cohen: Host (15:58): Yeah, it does seem that some remixes end up being in some ways more prominent. I mean, I think about Whitney Houston for instance, would have singles where there were remixes that were more popular than the original. Some dance remixes and things like that was a big part of her sales.

Bonzai Caruso (16:13): Yeah. I was recently in a situation like that, where we had a record that was a great record and label wanted to really give it as much legs as it could and get radio promo and radio support. And we did this remix and the remix everyone loved the remix and no one liked the original. But sometimes, but the problem arises when the artist... So, I really as a producer or a label, I'd take it up with the artist, "Are you okay with someone taking this? Now you have a dance record." And a lot of artists would tell you, "But I'm not a dance artist. I don't want to dance." So, you have to take that into consideration as well. I do anyway. When I'm working with an artist, I take that seriously. And I want to work with them and so that they're okay with the direction I'm taking it in.

Dan Cohen: Host (17:05): Sure. Can I ask about this sort of rise of the single, I think everyone today with streaming, it seems like the single has just so taken over for the album. You started out producing albums, these really famous reggae albums. Even a decade ago, they were much more prominent than they are today. It seems like artists now are just constantly striving to get a single out there. Has that really impacted your work?

Bonzai Caruso (17:31): It has because it's the market has become singles driven. It is a singles market out there, which is good and has its pros and cons about it. Because I like the fact that at the end of the day, a good single is a good single and not everyone's going to like the same stuff obviously. But and let the... If you release an album of 13, 14 songs, people don't want song number two or number nine or number 10. They want songs two, three, four, six and five, whatever. And so I guess, that's okay. You have to embrace. I for one embrace all this stuff. Yeah, it was great to buy vinyl and you listen to a 16-minute song that took up a whole side of the vinyl. But it's just the market, it's the market we live in and unless... And there's still a market for that as well. It's just not as popular.

Dan Cohen: Host (18:30): Yeah. What do you hear from artists just about the economics of the current situation? Actually, we had a musician turn IP copyright lawyer who's here at Northeastern on a prior podcast. And he said just that the economics have gotten really tough for up and coming artists out there.

Bonzai Caruso (18:49):

7 They have, they really have. Started with the advent of MP3s and file sharing, where everyone shared everything and the artists and the writers were cut out of any revenue there. And then the streaming, it's just what they're paying. Is the writers and artists, the royalties they're making over streaming is terrible. It's really bad, in my eyes. I mean, there's also there's good and bad things about it, because it does make it more accessible to the masses and to more people. You can reach more people and it's just the amount of plays you have to get before you see a decent royalty check from some of these streaming services. So, there's good things and not so good things about it.

Dan Cohen: Host (19:37): Yeah. So, maybe we'll talk a little bit more about the positive things about it. I think something else that's really notable from the last decade and certainly that you were way out ahead of, is just the globalization of music and that accessibility. The fact that you can go on Spotify or Apple Music and sample music from around the world. I think increasingly we do hear those sounds from all over. Your work in reggae, I mean, I hear reggae inflected songs from everywhere and I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts are about that. And especially it does seem like that continuing influence of the Caribbean on music worldwide is especially strong in this kind of global market.

Bonzai Caruso (20:21): Yeah. And having all these platforms to reach people on a global level is wonderful, because we're hearing emerging artists from South Africa, West Africa, New Zealand, all over... My gosh, there's just great music coming out of all corners of the earth. And so much of it reggae or Caribbean influence, but they do their own twist. Like the West African a little faster, upbeat, more ska related almost. The Hawaiian more chilled out versions of reggae influence where it's more relaxing. And I'm generally speaking in general obviously.

Dan Cohen: Host (21:05): Yeah, sure.

Bonzai Caruso (21:06): But yeah, all these countries and areas of the world add their own little distinct flavor and create a hybrid so to speak.

Dan Cohen: Host (21:18): When you're a listener rather than a producer of music, do you just kind of surf the globe on your days off and try to find these little nooks and crannies that have some new take on say reggae?

Bonzai Caruso (21:28): Yeah, I do. I get a lot of it from networking, word of mouth from my colleagues from other people are recommending and suggesting that I check out. Go down that road, it's fun. There's a lot of great stuff out there. And there's a lot of like, nah, not so great stuff out there too, but.

Dan Cohen: Host (21:48): Are you concerned at all about the homogenization or a certain sameness in pop music? For instance, I mentioned reggaeton, which comes from Puerto Rico and is part of this sort of globalization. It seemed

8 like last year every single hit on pop radio had the reggaeton beat from Ed Sheeran on down. Is that a concern? Do you like there to be more diversity out there in pop music?

Bonzai Caruso (22:13): No, I mean, diversity in pop music, yeah, absolutely. I'm all for it. I love it. And there's a lot of that emerging and a lot of new artists are really pushing the boundary, so to speak with all that and their influences are wide and diverse. In terms of the reggaeton thing, it's just it's one type of approach in my eyes. One approach to a pop song that it's big in the Latin American community was. I don't know how much it still is. I don't really keep track of it.

Dan Cohen: Host (22:45): Yeah, seems to have faded maybe a bit. Yeah. So, tell us a bit about what you're working on right now. If we could maybe pull back the curtain on Bonzai Caruso and your studio. Who are you working with right now, if it's okay to ask?

Bonzai Caruso (23:01): Sure. Right now I'm doing a mix for Alicia Keys and her next single with Chronixx and Protoje, which I'm really excited about, great tune. I'm producing an artist, her name is Asher Otto and she's from Antigua. So, I've been working in Antigua a lot lately and doing a full length album with her. She's an amazing artist. We have four songs completed and just started the next set of six songs. So, I have a lot of work to do.

Dan Cohen: Host (23:29): And what kind of music does she produce?

Bonzai Caruso (23:32): It's a hybrid of the Caribbean and reggae and pop. I'm really trying to... I'm in the midst of it right now. So, I'm asking myself that same question, what am I doing here? Trying to come up with that really cool, interesting sound of a hybrid of American pop and reggae and Caribbean vibes, even a little Soca and hip-hop. It's like stirring it up in a pot and see what works.

Dan Cohen: Host (24:05): Yeah. Do you get to actually go there and work with her in person or is this also remote?

Bonzai Caruso (24:10): Yeah, no, I've been in the last six months, I've been down there probably four times. I just got back last week. Yeah and it's been wonderful working with her and she's come here. I've flown her out here to Vegas and she stayed here with me for a month doing vocals and arrangements and stuff. And she's wonderful to work with and I love working on projects like that with... I'm really lucky to be working with such talent.

Dan Cohen: Host (24:32): Yeah. And how do you meet these up and coming artists?

Bonzai Caruso (24:37):

9 Sometimes word of mouth, sometimes record companies or management companies will say, "Hey, we have this new artist and they really like your stuff. And how can we get this off the ground and get you working on it?" It could come from several different sources like that, but mostly labels, managers. Sometimes the artists themselves just reach out to my website or whatever. I get a message, I'm like, "Oh, my God, look who's calling." Look who I just got a message from, holy cow. It's like, yeah, so.

Dan Cohen: Host (25:06): Who's the just the most fun you've ever worked with? Who's the artist that if you could just spend a lot of time in the studio with them, that would be a fun day for you?

Bonzai Caruso (25:16): Oh, gosh. Oh, there's so many. I've been very blessed with that. I love working with Stephen Marley. I think he's an amazing producer, an amazing artist. Damian Marley as well. Fun? They're very serious, but they're also very fun too at the same time. Fun? Madonna was fun. Working with her was a blast. I spent maybe six months working on eight or 10 songs with her back in the day. We had a great time. You know who's a lot of fun in the studio? Is Bette Midler. She would love that she had heard-

Dan Cohen: Host (25:46): I didn't actually know that you worked with her.

Bonzai Caruso (25:49): I only worked with her once. Really did one tune I think. But just working with her she was... I just remember she was really fun to work with. She was a blast.

Dan Cohen: Host (25:57): Right. And Madonna, we should mention, so which album did you work with her on, which tracks?

Bonzai Caruso (26:04): That would have been Erotica, which I did the remixed versions of all the songs. I didn't actually... I think there might be one song that made it to the album, but I just remixed a lot of the tunes that were on there with various DJs.

Dan Cohen: Host (26:17): Wow, that's amazing. Well, we look forward to hearing many more tracks from you. I'm particularly interested in the Alicia Keys music that is coming out of your studio. And Bonzai Caruso, thanks so much for joining us on What's New and talking about the music industry yesterday and today.

Bonzai Caruso (26:34): Oh, great. Thanks so much for having me. It's been great.

Dan Cohen: Host (26:41): What's New comes to you from the Northeastern University Library. Produced by Jon Reed and myself, Dan Cohen, and with production assistance from Debra Smith, Evan Simpson, Debra Mandel, Sarah Sweeney, and Brooke Williams. You can catch all our episodes and transcripts and subscribe using your favorite podcast app at what'snewpodcast.org. We'll see you next time on What's New.

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