REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, March 27, 1979 at 11 a.m.

Present: The Governor (Sir John Paul, are cast for fatigue -by a sergeant unkind, G.C.M.G., O.B.E., M.C.). In the Council: don’t grass like the woman, nor crack on, The Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. Vernon nor blind, be handy and civil and then you Nicholls), the Attorney-General (Mr. J. W. will find that it’s beer for the young British Corrin), Messrs. G. T. Crellin, R. E. S. soldier.” Albert enjoyed a beer, he also liked Kerruish, G. V. H. Kneale, W. A. Moore, a flutter, he was a very human person. Per­ J. C. Nivison, C.B.E., A. H. Simcocks, haps it was the experience of those years of M.B.E., with Mr. T, A. Bawden, Clerk of service to his country that helped develop the Council. In the Keys: The Speaker (the the warmth, compassion, understanding and Hon. H. C. Kerruish, O.B.E.), Messrs. tolerance that made up the character of the R. J. G. Anderson, W. K. Quirk, J. J. man who, in the years that followed, though Radcliffe, P. Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, A. A. never seeking prominence, consistently Callin, J. R. Creer, E. G. Lowey, M. R. achieved it. He spent his working life in the Walker, N. Q. Cringle, Mrs. E. C. Quayle, Post Office becoming that rare being, the Messrs. G. A. Quinney, M.B.E., E. M. Ward, efficient yet popular inspector. He first B.E.M., P. A. Craine, D. F. K. Delaney, entered public life when in 1958 he was E. C, Irving,.Mrs. B. Q. Hanson, Mr. T. E. elected to the Douglas Town Council. He Kermeerf;' I.S.O., Dr. D. L. Moore, M.A., became M ayor in 1962 and served in that Ph.D., Messrs. J. J. Christian, G. C. Swales, capacity until 1964, and by happy chance with Mr. R. B. M. Quayle, Clerk of Tynwald. was serving as Mayor during the period of the Queen Mother’s visit to our Island. There was no disqualification at that time TRIBUTE TO for members of local authorities who wished THE LATE MR. T. A. CORKISH to serve in the Keys, and following a suc­ BY THE SPEAKER. cessfully contested bye-election in South The Speaker: Your Excellency, the fact Douglas in 1958 he entered the Legislature that Tynwald starts today at a later hour and remained a member until the General than usual illustrates the respect in which Election of 1971. For many years Chairm an our late friend and former colleague, of the Civil Defence Commission, he also Thomas Albert Corkish, was held, and I served on the Health Services Board, the know that this morning hon. members will Board of Social Security, the Police Board, wish to join me in placing on record our and the War Pensions Committee. Following deep regret at the passing of one who during his retirement from the Keys he continued his lifetime so ably served our Island. Albert his Council work and sat on the aldermanic — he was always Albert to his colleagues — bench until his retirement in 1978. F or a was born in 1897, and on leaving school, young Post Office messenger of 1912 I b e­ after a brief spell as a Post Office messenger, lieve that he felt that his greatest honour although under age, he joined up for service was that of being a Freeman of Douglas, in the first world war, his service taking him an honour conferred on him in 1975. But it as far afield as Gallipolli. I have often felt is probable that he will, as I think he would that if Kipling had sought a character to have wished, be remembered equally as a represent the soldier of the period he could founder and ardent supporter of the South have made no better choice, for Albert was, Douglas Old Friends’ Association, of which in Kipling’s words, “A trooper of the forces for many years he was the secretary and who has run his own six horses.” Moreover, treasurer. To this Court, as we extend our one who knew the truth of the lines, “If you sincere condolences and sympathy to his

Tribute to the Late Mr. T. A. Corkish by the Speaker. T634 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 family, I can imagine-Albert’s message for last two months by a working party consis­ the day would be, to ¡paraphrase Kipling, ting of three members from the trade union “Be thankful you are living and trust to side and three members from the official your luck, and face up to your tasks like a side, together with the two secretaries, and soldier.” Thank you, Your Excellency. it was only last evening that it was ratified The Governor: Hon. members, I would by the full Whitley Council. Under the ask you to stand for a few moments in agreement which will operate for three years, silence in respect of the memory of Mr. from 1st April 1979, m anual workers in Corkish. Government employ will receive service increments of between £2 and £4 per week. The first increment of £2 will be paid after APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE. one year’s service. After two years’ service The Governor: I have apologies this a further increment of 50p per week will morning for the absence of the hon. mem­ be paid, and after three years’ service a bers of Council, Sir John Bolton and Mr. further increment of 50p per week will be MacDonald. Also, Mr. Christian has said he paid. The final increment of £1 per week will be late. will be paid after four years’ service. A worker who has completed one year’s ser­ vice by 1st April 1979 will get an increment MANUAL WORKERS’ PAY — of £2 per week, and a worker ■■ who. has STATEMENT BY MR. CALLIN. completed two or three years’ service by that The Governor: Before we start our busi­ date will receive £2-50 or £3 respectively. ness, with the leave of the Court the hon. Anyone with four years’ service by 1st April member for Middle, Mr. Callin, would like will receive £4 per week, but the present to make a brief statement. Is that agreed, service supplement of 65p per week, which hon. members? is payable to an employee with five or more It was agreed. years’ service, will be incorporated into the increments. To explain the effects upon Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, hon. mem­ everyone of these pay awards would take bers, the genuine concern which has been too long, but to illustrate the point let me expressed in this hon. Court over the low use the example of a grade “B” manual pay of some of the manual workers em­ workers whose basic wage for the year prior ployed by Government and local authorities to November 1978 was £42-80 per week. As has nowhere been more keenly felt than by from 1st April 1979, provided he has com­ the official side of the Whitley Council, pleted four years’ service, his basic pay will whose members have been trying to trans­ be £51-30 per week. The difference of £8-50 late that concern into some positive and will be made up of an extra £3-50 from constructive action over a considerable November 1978, a further £1 from Feb­ period. The pay of manual workers was, ruary 1979, and an extra £4 from 1st April until very recently, based on an agreement 1979. This basic pay could be further reached in November 1977, and this gave increased by a self-financing productivity the grade “B” worker a gross basic wage bonus scheme which will be fully investi­ of only £42-80 per week; 67 persons in gated, and by the comparability exercise Government are on grade “B” wages. A being undertaken on the mainland. All in all grade “D” worker had a gross basic wage these changes represent a much needed and of £44-70 per week; 148 persons are on long overdue improvement in the pay of a grade “D” wages. At long last the situation group of workers whose loyalty, in the main, is to be improved for all our manual workers, for in addition to pay rises awarded is unquestioned. Having said that, however, under a national agreement of £3-50 per I feel certain that had this agreement not week back-dated to November 1978, and been reached industrial action would have £1 per week back-dated to 22nd February, resulted, and this would not have been to they will benefit from an agreement con­ the benefit of anyone. I would like to em­ cluded between the trade union and the phasise most strongly that the manual official side of the Council, subject to cer­ workers are not getting a cost-of-living tain conditions. That agreement has been bonus. What they are to receive is an incre­ reached after numerous meetings over the mental pay scale which is something that

Apologies for Absence. — Manual Workers’ Pay—Statement by Mr. Callin. TYNW ALD COURT, M A RCH 27, 1979 T635

most other public servants have enjoyed for the gratitude of all the members in this hon. a great number of years. Finally, I cannot Court that the situation is now going to be let this occasion pass without referring to improved. I know we have all felt that it the support that I have received from my was completely unacceptable as it was. The colleagues on the official side of the Council, Board has also appointed a mineral consul­ and for the help that I have had both from tant so that now our returns from the the secretary of the trade union side, the quarries have been uplifted and are more in hon. member for North Douglas, and the line with those -in the United Kingdom. secretary of the official side, Mr. George During the year Glen Wyllin was purchased Carter, during what has been the most and in a combined operation with the High­ serious situation that the Council has ever way Board and the Local Government had to deal with. Board it will be made available for Millen­ nium campers and Island residents. Regret­ tably the floods have undermined the banks ESTIMATES OF FORESTRY, MINES of the river and it is indiciated to us that it AND LANDS BOARD — APPROVED. will cost long thousands of pounds to make The Governor: We will resume this them safe so, unless disagreement is ex­ morning, hon. members, by going back to pressed in this hon. Court, the Board intends item number 19 which was deferred at our to put up notices saying that the banks are last meeting. I call on the Chairman of the dangerous, and leave it at that. Under our Forestry, Mines and Lands Board. Capital Estimates we have provided for toilets in Glen Wyllin, the Sulby Claddaghs, Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg to and we are also putting in for toilets at our move:— arboretum. The cost is now estimated at That Tymvald requests the Finance Board £16,000 each, and to have to ask for £48,000 to give consideration in the preparation of for toilets when we badly need money to the Budget to the Estimates of the Forestry, modernise our forestry work seems to me all Mines and Lands Board as shown in the “cock-eyed”. Being realistic, we are not Book of Estimates for 1979/80. expecting item number 6, that is the timber In the past year the Forestry Board have drying plant, to materialise this year, but I sought specialist advice from a Forestry do most strongly urge that we be allowed to Commission member and is now acting on start on the repairing of the cafe and the the report submitted by the North-Western ballroom in the Laxey Glen Gardens. The Conservator. On his recommendations we deplorable state of this building is due to have been loaned a team of men from the years of neglect. We feel this building should Forestry Commission who have mapped out be an asset, both for the tourist industry and our plantations so that we will have an for the people of Laxey. We hope that accurate knowledge of what timber we have £60,000 is an over-generous estimate and growing in the Island at present because, as that it will be considerably less. Incidentally, things are at the moment, we can only guess there is a mistake in the Green Book. The and it is impossible to plan on guesswork. loan charges estimate should have been put Owing to the atrocious weather this team of against the glens because of this work and men have had to spend an extra week on other repairs. In connection with the main­ the Island and I would like to express tenance of the various properties vested in appreciation to the Forestry Commission for us the Local Government Board have kindly footing the bill for that extra week. When co-operated in carrying out surveys of all we have appointed the new head forester we our properties and we are very grateful to intend to give all the men in the forestry them, and for the other help they have given department intensive training so that, our Board. Turning to the Revenue Esti­ working in teams, they will be able to im­ mates, the fact that we appear to be asking prove their earnings considerably. Until the for nine extra men is misleading. For your statement that has just been made by my hon. friend from Middle about the earnings, information, the Green Book’s personnel more than a quarter of our Board’s men budget reflects the number of men employed took home less than £40 a week, and to the by any Government department or Board on housewife it is what you take home in your 31st December of that year, Last 31st pocket that matters, So I am sure I express December we happened to be six men short,

Estimates of Forestry, Mines and Lands Board—Approved. T636 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 our establishment being 79, so that in voted by this hon. Court under this heading, actual fact we are only asking for three and practically all of this has been advanced extra men, but we do badly need those three or earmarked, and will enable 12 ex­ extra men, one for the glens and two for the perienced farmers with the necessary resi­ arboretum. We have been really stretched dential qualifications to purchase their farms by the extra work connected with the or acquire additional land with a view to Millennium; the appalling weather has making their existing holdings more viable. further hampered us. However, the foresters This is a scheme we are most anxious to have visited all the sites and the staff have continue with, with a view to helping to got out about 5,000 hardwood trees for those ensure that as much as possible of the who applied for them. Trees, stakes and ties Island’s farmland remains in Manx hands. have all been given free and I can only hope The next largest capital provision is £300,000 that the recipients will cherish their Mil­ for loans to fishermen. Interest in the pur­ lennium gifts and regard them as a very chase of new or better vessels continues to important investment in the future beauty be strong, and applications and inquiries of the Island. Others will receive their trees received by the Board suggest that this next season and we are especially looking amount will be fully required during the to the owners of farmland in the more tree­ coming financial year. Such a scheme as this less areas. But inevitably our nursery re­ is required to enable our fishermen to renew ceipts have suffered and will probably do so their boats where necessary, and-equip them while this free Millennium scheme is being suitably to meet the needs of modern times. carried out. Finally, merely as a matter of Last week during the debate on the Harbour interest to hon. members, we have asked Board Estimates, Mr. Speaker inquired as to the shooting clubs to be responsible for the the value of the herring fishing to the Manx vermin in our planations, and the Isle of economy. The Board of Agriculture do com­ Man Game and Clay Shooting Association plete figures, some of them admittedly returns tell us that they have shot 350 estimates, with a view to assessing the value hooded crows, 200 magpies and 300 pigeons. of the herring fishery to the Island. They I beg to move. have just completed this exercise in respect Mr. Moore: I beg to second, Your of 1978, and our figures indicate that the Excellency. value of the herring fishery to the Manx economy is approximately £1,580,000, I do The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. concede that certain of these figures are members? estimates, but the Board believes that they It was agreed. do give a very fair indication of the value of this part of the herring fishery to the Island. When you consider that the first­ ESTIMATES OF BOARD OF hand value of the catch made by the Manx AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES vessels approaches . £4- million, namely, — APPROVED. £476,000, it is obvious that we are running The Governor: Item number 22. I call on into quite big figures as far as this particu­ the Chairman of the Board of Agriculture lar section of the herring industry is con­ and Fisheries. cerned. The Board of Agriculture itself gets a modest income in the way of levies, Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I beg to amounting to £16,000, but the Harbour move:— Board have a very signficant contribution That Tynwald requests the Finance Board from the herring fishery, namely the dues on to give consideration in the preparation of the units landed and barrels exported, the Budget to the Estimates of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries as shown in meaning that the Harbour Board got £75,000 the Book of Estimates for 1979180. from this particular section of the industry. Hon. members will observe that the largest I think it is clear from the figures we have single item under the Board’s Capital Esti­ seen that whilst we are not complacent on mates is the sum of £500,000 for the this particular matter, and we believe that Agricultural Holdings (Loans) Scheme, first we want to pursue our efforts to get even introduced in May of last year. During the more of the herring catch processed on the present financial year £450,000 has been Island, and at the present time there are

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T637

processors who are interested in this par- the £1,687,000 by the processing carried out lar proposition, we believe at the moment on the Island,, it must be very clear that the the situation is quite commendable and we exports of all types of fish from the Island believe that pursuing our policy of trying must make a very significant contribution to to encourage processors in the future to the Island’s total exports. I am spelling out make greater use of the herring fishery on these figures, but I think it is most impor­ the Island is a step we are taking that will tant that the Court should realise that the meet with the commendation of the hon. fishing industry has now got to a stage when Court. It does- Suggest though that the fears it is making an extremely valuable contri­ that have been expressed by Mr. Speaker bution to the whole of our economy and that perhaps the very large catches . . . Our well merits our support. If I can get back estimates show that the total value of the on to dry land and still remain with our herring fishery was just in excess of £3 mil­ Capital Estimates, the Agricultural Credits lion, £3| million, and when we are getting Act, for which we are providing £150,000 injected into the Isle of Man’s economy in our Capital Estimates, continues to be somewhere about £14- million it is quite a utilised as more farm buildings are erected significant proportion of the overall value or modernised, some to enable greater use of the herring fishery. But I do openly accept to be made of mechanisation on the farm, that we are most anxious to ensure that a others to provide for the making of silage greater proportion of the money that stems which is becoming increasingly more popu­ from the herring fishery should, if possible, lar each year. The scheme, by the way, I be retained in the Manx economy. When would spell out, this present scheme, is also talking about the value of our fisheries, available to horticulturists. Provision made we also at the Board of Agriculture com­ for the cutting-room is included and is due piled certain figures relating to the first-hand for discussion, as hon. members will know, value of other fish landed on the Island. We by Tynwald at its next sitting. A new item have just completed this exercise in respect in the Capital Estimates, a modest proposal of the first-hand value of fish landed to pro­ we have put forward, is the construction of cessors in the Island. These are not neces­ a meeting room at Knockaloe, adjoining the sarily all from Manx boats; indeed, they are existing farm dwelling and office. Facilities not all from Manx boats, they are from the for holding meetings at Knockaloe are very boats that come from England, Scotland or limited. The proposed room would be used Wales as well as our own ships, and land as a lecture room by our advisory and fish to the processors, and I think it is veterinary staff, and it would also be worthy of advising the Court of our latest utilised as office accommodation for the investigations in this matter, and I would new grassland advisory officer who is to take regard these figures as fairly accurate in up his duties some time early next month. view of the fact that they were obtained As far as the Revenue Estimates are con­ first-hand from those concerned, they cerned, they show a modest fall on the aggregate a total of no less than £1,687,000, present year partly due to a £50,000 drop in and they are made up as follows, and this is the provision for payments under the fat- for the year 1978: queenies, first-hand value, stock guarantee schemes. Requirements £406,770; escallops, £932,324; white fish, under this heading depend upon market £159,430; prawns, £169,113, and lobsters, forces and any adjustments which may have £19,669 — a total of £1,687,306. I think this to be made will be made when prices for illustrates the very gratifying expansion that the coming year have been decided upon. has taken place in the fishing industry. It These will not be known until agreement speaks well for those actually engaged in can be reached between the agricultural the catching. I think it is a vindication of ministers of the European Economic Com­ the Government policy in supporting our munity, probably some time in April, at fishermen, our processors, and particularly least we hope some time in April. One the pursuance by Government through the decision, however, has been made known; medium of the Board of Agriculture of the that is a one-off extra subsidy of 50p per very long-sighted view as far as the con­ breeding ewe under the Hill Sheep Subsidy servation of all species are concerned. When Scheme to compensate hill farmers for the one considers th& value that can be added to extra expense and losses due to the very bad

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. T638 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

winter. I think hon. members will have annum. I feel that under the conditions we noticed, as I have, that the hills even in the enjoy in the Island here there is still greater Island have not been clear of snow during potential in this particular sector. I believe the whole of the present calendar year. I that further expansion on the part of can never recall an occasion when for the growers is inhibited by one main factor, months of January, February and March uncertainties with regard to the cost of oil. there has been such snow on the high We would very much like to do something ground, and although I have no knowledge to help them in this regard. I think it is a as to what losses have ibeen sustained by very desirable type of expansion that could hill farmers up to now, I think it is fairly be taken in the agricultural and horticul­ evident even to the layman that those con­ tural sector and I hope we feel that some ditions in the uplands must be going to have help can be extended to them sometime in a very detrimental effect when it comes to the future. Also included in the Revenue lambing time on the hills. So we hope that Estimates is the sum of £100,000 against we will be able to extend some provision grants to fishermen in pursuance of our in this particular regard. The Board’s Esti­ policy of giving support in the way of grants mates also include provision for bringing and loans as far as new vesssels are con­ our basic hill sheep subsidy up to the cerned. I hope I have said enough about the United Kingdom level. Provision has also value of the fishing industry to the economy been made for other support measures to convince hon. members that this is a very similar to the United Kingdom such as the wise provision indeed included in our Hill Cow Scheme, and we have made re­ Revenue Estimates. It will be gathered from quests to the Finance Board to bring the my remarks that the fishing industry and the levels of support under our Farm Improve­ horticultural sector account for considerable ment Scheme up to those of the Farm and exports, and when combined with the annual Horticultural Development Scheme in the export of about £1| million of fatstock plus United Kingdom. As yet we have not had about £1 million dairy products in the form a decision from the Finance Board but we of cheese, it will be clear that as well as are hoping that at some time we will have providing a large proportion of the Island’s good news from them in this particular own food requirements, the agricultural and regard. Horticulturists in the Island can get fishing industries are making a very sig­ grants of 33} per cent, on new structures, nificant contribution to our exports. I and a sum of £25,000 has been provided appreciate that in recent times other sectors under this heading. I feel it is worth men­ of the economy have flourished and pros­ tioning that in quite recent times, during the pered and we are glad of it, but let us never last two, three or four years, there has been forget that this Island has no coal and it quite marked expansion in our horticul­ has no oil. Our two great natural resources tural production. Talking to what I would are the soil of the Island and the seas which regard as the Island’s largest retailer, it was surround it. It will be the endeavour of your interesting to learn that during the busy Board of Agriculture to see that these two months of June, July, August and Septem­ great natural resources are utilised to the ber, as far as he was concerned, he was now fullest extent possible. I beg to move. able to obtain local supplies of tomatoes for Mr. Walker: I beg to second. all those months owing to new production Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I looked in the Isle of Man and these are being sold forward with interest to the Chairman of the by this retailer in place of what, in years Board of Agriculture’s speech here this gone by, would be imported produce. I think morning, as it has been significant as the this is commendable. In this regard also I various Chairmen have got to their feet think it is worth mentioning that as far as during the Estimates and put forward the the export of cut flowers is concerned, this various Estimates that they have put before has now assumed considerable dimensions us here, they have been underlining the as far as export trade is concerned. From importance of their own Board. I recall, for inquiries I have made personally I have example, the hon. Chairman of the Board formed the view that the value of the cut of Education suggesting that education was flower export trade from the Island must so important that you could live without be now approaching about £ | million per local government but not without education.

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 T639

In fact, really, all these things are important industry on a correct footing. But to go to in their own degree, to a greater or lesser the extreme that they have done in Southern degree. When one looks at the agricultural Ireland in devaluation of the green pound, industry, sometimes I think you have got to the result of which, as I say, has created an have a special brand of insanity to continue ■imbalance in that economy, is not in my to farm, especially when you have had a view a desirable thing do to, but try to get it winter like the one we have just experienced. on the basis of areas in Scotland and in the I was just thinking as the hon. member was North of England which are similar to ours. speaking, he is a member of the Millennium I think this is what we want to try to Committee, and really they have not done a achieve as far as the agricultural industry is very good job as far as the weather has concerned. I know that probably hon. mem­ been concerned since 1979 has come in. I bers will go into the politics that at the hope that as it proceeds it will improve moment surround the agricultural industry somewhat. The only reason I got to my feet and it would seem odd to a lot of people today is that I do appreciate that there is a that when we, as an Assembly, are trying lot of pressure on the Board of Agriculture to seek more power, more decision as far as in relation to certain sectors of the industry we are concerned in our own affairs, here and the industry in general, as many people there would appear to be a departure, that feel that it is somewhat depressed. I think in certain sectors we are trying to creep that again this is something that has got to away under the European Economic Com­ be kept in perspective. One looks, possibly, munity regulations in order to seek as with some envious eyes at Southern Ireland quickly as possible to comply with what is and sees the terriffic amount of prosperity seen by some to be that which is applicable, there is there in the agricultural industry. I and by others maybe not so applicable. I would like to say right away that I would think we want to be consistent. We want to not like us to emulate what has happened retain on this Island as far as possible the there. I think it has got completely out of say in our own affairs, whether it is in the perspective. This is where I look for balance, Board of Agriculture or in the fisheries where you have the ordinary members of sphere, and seek there to extend the the public in that area out on the streets fisheries boundary as far as possible, and not marching because of what has happened in just knuckle under to the European Econo­ the agricultural industry. The cost of living mic Community, but to stand up and be to the ordinary people has gone up out of counted and seek to progress the interests of all proportion to the rest of the community. the Isle of Man, never mind the bigger out­ I think this is a lesson that we have all got side Community. What we want is a balance to learn. We have to keep all the things that in the whole of what has been prepared for we have got to deal with in perspective, and the May Budget for this Island, not only in I think this is what we have got to look to one sector, but in the whole of the economy, the Finance Board to do, to balance the and I am delighted to hear the statement of whole of our economy, remembering that the hon. member for Middle because it is the main objective has got to be to enable important if we are going to have a success­ the industries which, as has been said earlier ful society that that is a fair society. in these Estimates, are contributing finan­ cially to the Island, such as fishing, agricul­ Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I fully sup­ ture and tourism, and other things that earn port the Estimates of the Board of Agricul­ money and industry for the Island, to en­ ture and Fisheries, but I have a matter that able those to compete on a fair basis. I I would like to raise with the hon. Chair­ man and I thought perhaps this might be think this is what you have got to look at, an appropriate time to do so. The report in to put them on a basis where they can the Green Book commences as follows: compete with the people who are possibly “Within the broad policy of maintaining going to import into the Island in opposition active and prosperous agricultural, horticul­ to them. This is the important factor, to tural and fishing industries, and the re­ give the industries involved the tools to do assurance of the participants, the Board the job. I think in the Estimates speech of seeks to maintain a measure of assistance the hon. Chairman, the Board would appear similar to that afforded by the British to be trying to do just that, to put the Government, with modifications and adapta­

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. T640 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

tions to meet insular conditions.” These are satisfactory, and I hope the Board will give reassuring words, and so they should be. this particular matter their urgent attention. My information, however, is that the glass­ house growers on the Island are at a con­ Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, just siderable disadvantage when compared with a few words on the Board of Agriculture glasshouse growers both on the mainland Estimates. I must declare an interest, of and in the Channel Islands, certainly where course, as an agriculturalist and also as a oil prices are concerned. I understand that horticulturist. The Chairman’s opening no quantity rebate applies for our glass­ remarks, I was beginning to think that he house growers which is an average of lOp was the Chairman of not the Board of per gallon. To a grower this could mean a Agriculture and Fisheries but the Fisheries great deal of money, a difference between Board only, but he did get round eventually being economic and uneconomic. I am to agriculture which is as big and as im­ authoritatively informed that horticulture portant an industry as the fishing industry. here could, given a fair deal on oil prices, Your Excellency, the industry agriculturally be on the increase particularly in the export seems to stagger from year to year with one field where there are markets, I understand, year perhaps a surplus of potatoes, another waiting to be exploited. Local markets are year a surplus of sheep, another year a sur­ also suffering because growers find it un­ plus of milk and another year, perhaps, a economical at present to start their crops surplus of grain or whatever. The margins off earlier. Manx tomatoes, for instance, today are not great and this sort of surplus could be supplied over a much longer situation makes a real difference between a period. At present they do not come on to profit and loss situation, or certainly a profit the market in any great quantity until mid- and a reasonable profit situation, and I think June, whereas they could be readily avail­ our Board of Agriculture here could do a able from early May. Could I ask the hon. lot for the industry were they to issue to the Chairman to look into this matter as soon as agricultural industry a comprehensive guide­ possible for the purpose of ensuring that the line for what would be acceptable or ideal Manx glasshouse grower obtains a quantity production levels to aim for. Now I think rebate on his oil purchases similar to that this sort of guideline would be of in­ applying both on the mainland and in the estimable help to the industry because a lot Channel Islands? I am sure that this would of capital is tied in to the various enterprises not only be to the benefit of the growers and indeed a lot of time is spent. Say one but it would benefit everyone living here. was going into beef or whatever, it is at least a three-year programme that you are working on, and at the end of that time you Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, the stress on could find that it had been a wasted effort the importance of the fishing industry at as far as profit level went and I think that this and at an earlier meeting of this Court a bit of guidance on what would be the is very welcome. I would like to congratu­ ideal production levels to aim for would late the Board, particularly on their conser­ be a big help to the inudustry. Now, the vation measures. I do hope they will not be Chairman made mention of the difficulties deterred by political pressures from the encountered by the hill sheep farmer this European Economic Community and back particular year and he approved of the down on any of their concerns in this area. increase in the subsidy rate paid to them It was sometimes suspected in the past, I but I would point out that at the other end think, that the Board of Agriculture and of the scale you have farmers at the Point Fisheries was agriculture with a capital “A” of Ayre in drought conditions and some, I and fisheries with a small “f ’, but I am sure know for certain, last year had no grain we need worry no further at all on this whatsoever from many, many acres and I concern. But is it not really time for the think he could put up as good an argument Island to have a full-time fisheries officer for help on his grounds as the hill farmer instead of this duty being shared with agri­ can with his snow and cold conditions and cultural responsibility? For a £2 million I would really have liked to have heard a industry — maybe my estimate is slightly better argument in favour of the increase different from the Chairman’s — to have for the hill subsidy system. Now the hon. only a part-time liaison officer is not, I feel, member for Middle made mention of the

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 T641

difficulties in the horticultural industry and Chairman of the Board of Agriculture is my remarks also apply very much to the notable for two things, as my friend and fishing industry and this is in fuel oil prices. colleague from Peel, Dr. Moore, men­ Now, I would point out that everyone has tioned. The emphasis, placed for the first difficulties we know with fuel oil but I time on fishing as opposed to agriculture is would like to point out that in the United very welcome indeed. I realise the reason Kingdom the horticultural producer enjoys why we are playing soft at this moment, a a 2-1 pence per gallon rebate on fuel oil low key on agriculture, is because of the very prices, that is as against the ordinary domes­ troubled waters in which the industry finds tic price. He also has another advantage, as itself. It is no use pretending that life is the hon. member for Middle quite rightly smooth at this moment, it is not, and it is pointed out, he is always able to do a deal not part of my job to make the very diffi­ somewhere for quantity discount and on the cult task of the Chairman of the Board of Island here we only have two major oil Agriculture any more difficult. However, I companies operating and I know, and this think I must comment on one or two items is fact, that they will not compete against which I believe it is in everyone’s interest one another as far as quantity discount goes. to give an airing to. If I could start like the The rough figures are that on the Island the Chairman did on fishing, the success of industry enjoys a 0-833 rebate because our fishing over the last few years, I believe, has domestic consumers on the Island receive a been mainly from the industry themselves in 1 • 66 rebate. The 2-1 pence difference is there organising into an association, a fishermen’s in theory but it has been eroded because association. It can be identified from that the Manx Government is giving to every moment and I would suggest to the hon. consumer of oil a 1 • 66 pence per gallon Chairman of the Board of Agriculture and rebate. I think the argument that applies in Fisheries that he and his Board cannot take the United Kingdom of a direct 2+ pence for granted that because they have from difference between domestic consumer and their own efforts created a thriving industry horticultural grower should be maintained they can be ignored, and I believe they have here and I would say that it was acceptable been, to a very large degree, in the past. I in the United Kingdom and has been worked think recognition has been given now to the out on vastly greater figures there. The merit fact that they must be given assistance from is there for a 21 pence direct difference be­ Government, but I believe the industry is tween domestic consumer and horticultural where it is today, not because of but in spite user and I think that that should apply here of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. too. In February this hon. Court passed a I raise that because the Chairman of the resolution that the agricultural industry, and Board of Agriculture moved the resolution this is just roughly worded, would enjoy the at last month’s Tynwald, which has been same levels of support as their United King­ referred to by my hon. friend from Ayre, dom counterparts. I feel, sir, that this is Mr. Radcliffe, saying that the farming com­ going to be costly, and I wonder, looking munity should have the same as their through the Estimates of the Board of Agri­ English counterparts. The Chairman did say culture, has sufficient provision been made that he has already been to the Finance for this programme? Now, if the Island was Board on one particular scheme, a loan in the European Economic Community I am scheme, to see if it could be put into opera­ quite certain that it would probably be tion. I just wonder, because in the same classed as a less favoured area and grants debate it was agriculture and fishing that in the less favoured areas are generally 25 were to be given the same as their English per cent, more than the normal run and I counterparts. I wonder if any talks have would like to hear from the hon. Chairman been undertaken with the fishing industry of the Board of Agriculture that the in regard to this? I wonder if he can tell assurances given in February were not just u.i if they have discussed it and if they have paper talk but that they will be carried not, why not? I also wish, Your Excellency, through to what, perhaps, could be an ex­ to say that Mr. Anderson in his speech pensive conclusion. talked about people taking to the streets in M r. Lowey: Your Excellency, I think the Southern Ireland because of the success of speech made this morning by the hon. agriculture. (Interruption.) Well, I do not

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. T642 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

wish to get into conflict.with my friend from has just resumed his seat, to take individual East Douglas, but what I do say is that it is items to task on the Board of Agriculture extremely worrying to the consumers on and Fisheries Estimates at all. However, I the Isle of Man when they are being cannot agree with my hon. friend and charged 48 pence for half a cabbage and colleague that the fishing industry has pros­ that was charged in Ballasalla last Saturday. pered, to use his own words, in spite of the Now, the day of the £1 cabbage is with us, Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. I do not in effect — 48 pence for half a cabbage. accept that entirely because, of course, the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries in the A Member: What was the shopkeeper’s past have given a very good measure of percentage? support to the fisheries trade for purchasing Mr. Lowey: I would like very much to boats and, of course, they have also had know the whole story regarding 48 pence for support in the processing side. Now, albeit half a cabbage, but that is fact, and Balla­ that that support may not have been as salla, as you will be fully aware, is in the much as was asked for, what the fisheries heart of the country. Now, if that is not industry has had that the agricultural indus­ enough to make people take to the streets try of the Isle of Man has not had, is the very quickly, I do not know what is. I do advantage of being able to sell their pro­ believe, Your Excellency, once again we are ducts where they liked at whatever price getting driven into a position of make- they liked and I would suggest that largely believe in this Court. Mr. Callin mentioned the fisheries industry of the Isle of Man has the opening remarks in the Estimates of the prospered because it has had a wider Board of Agriculture and Fisheries when he horizon than the Isle of Man and it has been said, “. . . a measure of assistance similar to able to extend outside through its processing that afforded by the British Government, industry and through its direct sales. They with modifications and adaptations to meet have been able to go to a wider field and insular conditions” — and it is welcome. We reap the benefits of a wider market, not a all know that this must be within the con­ controlled market which the Isle of Man text of the European Economic Community agricultural industry has had to contend regulations. It is totally wrong to pretend with. In saying that, I am not saying that that that can be ignored and Mr. Anderson the control of agricultural products on the mentioned that we should be looking after Isle of Man is unnecessary, to some extent ourselves. Well, Mr. Anderson must be re­ it is necessary, to some extent. However, I ferred to his statement in 1973, he was in would very much like the Chairman of the this Court when they accepted the conditions Board of Agriculture this morning to spell of the European Economic Community out very, very clearly once and for all for having a say in the Isle of Man’s affairs me, refuting a statement which is in the regarding agriculture. I believe it does no- “Farmers’ Weekly” dated 29th December one in the industry any good, it does not and is put down in that “Farmers’ Weekly” do the Isle of Man any good, to pretend to the Secretary of the Board of Agriculture that somehow we can go back on those where it says: “The Board believes that the obligations. We cannot. So I think that answer is not only to cut imports, but sur­ ought to be spelled out, if it needs to be pluses and exports too, and produce and spelled out, loud and clear. I am. not going consume entirely within the Island.” Well, I to go on to meat which I think has had would suggest, Your Excellency and mem­ more than a fair airing in this Court over bers of the Court, that if that is the Board the last few months, but I do believe we of Agriculture’s policy then the agricultural must give a little bit of time for Mr. industry is not only, in the words of the Kerruish and his colleagues to come up with hon. member for Glenfaba, in a depressed the answer. I know he is in the midst of state, it is very much on the slippery slopes very, very difficult negotiations and I can to utter destruction. The Isle of Man agri­ assure him that I, along with all my col­ cultural industry must export to survive, leagues in this Court, wish him and his there is absolutely no question about that. Board success. We must seek for absolute production of Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, very briefly, our acres which we have available on the I have no wish, like my hon. colleague who Isle of Man and having achieved maximum

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T643 production we have no alternative but to that was brought up earlier when a state­ export and we must export competitively ment was made and has been referred to whether we like it or not and that is the several times, and the statement was wel­ stage in which the Board of Agriculture can comed about the increase for our lower paid lend assistance to the agricultural industry. workers, but before we get into a state of Whether or not we then cross European euphoria it would be interesting for mem­ Economic Community bridges, as the hon. bers to realise, and I hope the Chairman member and colleague for Rushen has com­ of Finance Board, and I am going to say mented on, that again is open, I would quite openly, when it comes to Budget suggest, very much to debate. But I would time I hope he will take this into con­ sincerely ask that the Chairman of the sideration because if you take the increase Board of Agriculture spells out quite clearly that has been given to our lower paid this morning that that is not the policy of workers it appears on paper to be £9, but the Board of Agriculture, that the policy of look at the tax side alone. You see, the the Board of Agriculture is to have full brackets have now been opened up and production on the Isle of Man and, there­ where a single person last year was paying fore, that we must seek exports and, having £2-90, at £42-80, this year he is going to said that, he must similarly be aware that be paying £4-30 and then, of course, the we must look wider afield than the United other group — and these are the people we Kingdom in some instances because the have got to be interested in—a married United Kingdom is deliberately, and has man last year earning £42-80 paid only 80 been deliberately, running down to some pence, but this year on these tax brackets extent its agriculture knowing full well that and scales he is going to be paying £2-20 within the European Economic Community and that is before we start taking off in ­ as a whole, of which it ds a full member, surance payments, so let us not get into a the bread basket is full and, knowing that, state of euphoria over this idea. I am they are prepared to run down. Every delighted, we all are delighted, but this is member-of this hon. Court, I would suggest, not the end of the road. It is not the be all at election time said he was prepared to and end all of everything. Referring to the support the base industries. Well, let us not Board of Agriculture, it should be re­ be hypocritical, let us accept the fact that we named, I think the Ministry of Defence, have to export, let us accept the fact that because they spend their time defending the Isle of Man’s base industries need to themselves and I do not see why, because export to survive and give them the sup­ they are elected by this Court to carry out port which they urgently require. the policy of this Court, to see if they are carrying out their “king’s” policy and we all know to whom I refer. I would say to M r. Delaney: My hon. friend, the senior them that the priority on these Estimates is member for Rushen, when he gets to his feet not the cutting room. I was horrified to read always has something interesting to say and two months ago that a certain person who something to the point, there is no doubt works for a department of the abattoir said about that. Well, as he was talking about they might very well be going into the cabbages, let us talk about kings for a butchery business and that, I believe, after while too, shall we? I was interested to reading it, is directly against the 1934 Agree­ hear what the hon. member for Glenfaba ment about the establishment of such an had to say when referring to another coun­ abattoir and if they are going to use this try, another place, and about people taking as a big stick to try and keep down all to the streets, but I will correct what he opposition, this is the lowest of the priorities. said. They did not take to the streets in Until we get the other problems of the meat that other place about the cost of living, it was about who was paying the most taxes, sorted out, and I am prepared to refer to that is what the main issue was, and the it, that is what we are here for, until we can main issue was that the agricultural com­ get that one sorted out and we have been munity at the time, and still at this moment, talking about it for 2 \ years, this cutting are not paying their fair share, or they are room is on the lowest of the priorities and thought not to be by the ordinary man in that should not be brought in until all the the street. This brings me back to a matter other matters concerning agriculture are

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. T644 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 sorted out. I do not want4o see this brought of slaughtering or sales of pigs; no mono­ up because this will be going on then for poly nor a statutory right to have a mono­ another 2{- years and I hope that is quite poly of slaughtering of pigs. Because they clear. I do not know how other members themselves have no right of monopoly might speak on this but I think that is interest at the abatttoir stage, they were important because that is only adding fuel surprised at our monopoly situation. When to the fire. We have got a running battle asked if they could comment they said, at the moment and putting this in is just fuel “The present monopoly situation is” — and to the fire so forget about the cutting room. I quote — “unlikely to be considered com­ The hon. member from Ayre, Mr. Norman patible with European Economic Com­ Radcliffe, spoke on horticulture and the hon. munity rules.” They suggested that the member for Middle, Mr. Callin, spoke about abattoir, and again I quote, “ought to be the greenhouse situation. If they are going removed from complete producer control.” to spend £81,600 this year put it to that Now I say to you, this is the very thing particular side of it. Let us do something which the butchers are asking for and I must constructive that we can get a market for. emphasise that the butchers do not want I hope that is quite clear and I hope other to break the present system or in any way members will speak on that particular side damage the scheme for producing fatstock of it. I support the rest of the Estimates up to the stage when it comes to the of the Board of Agriculture but this particu­ abattoir. But they and some of -the dis­ lar one I would not be able to support if affected farmers think that the running of it came to the floor of this House. the abattoir is inefficient and that the marketing of meat, the export of meat to the United Kingdom, could be better. They Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, first of feel that the running of our abattoir should all I would like to underline the Chairman’s be undertaken by a professional agent. This remarks on the Capital Estimates, item num­ is an immensely difficult problem for the ber 8 under the new schemes, that is the Board of Agriculture and, in my opinion, Knockaloe meeting place. At present there has got to be faced up to honestly. is absolutely no place for the groups of people to meet at Knockaloe for lectures, The Speaker: Your Excellency, the intro­ demonstrations and for meetings. Even the duction of these Estimates is rather like Board cannot meet there because of the lack papering over the facts, I think. It was a of a room. The whole point of Knockaloe, smooth introduction which did not recognise as you see in paragraph 2 of the preamble, perhaps many of the defects in the systems is that it should try out agricultural system« that we operate at the present time. One that can be adapted to the Island situation. welcomes the assurances of the Chairman How unbelievable it is that there is no place that agriculture is to be given comparable in the present set up where you can talk to treatment to that pertaining in the United farmers or, say, agricultural apprentices or Kingdom. How far will the Board foe allowed even visitors, members of the general public, to take this from the financial side? We are and explain to them what is going on at miles behind now in this respect and when Knockaloe and why. If ever £25,000 was to we hear this morning of the situation in be well spent it should be spent on this basic Southern Ireland, one must of course recog­ facility at Knockaloe. The other thing I nise the fact that prices in Southern Ireland wanted to say was that yesterday the Board are roughtly 40 per cent, ahead of those in of Agriculture went to Belfast to see the the Isle of Man. Prices in England are at Northern Ireland Pig Marketing Board and least 10 per cent, in reality, ahead of the the Northern Ireland Agriculture Depart­ Isle of Man, whatever field of production ment. This is because, of course, their they happen to be in, and there can be little scheme is likely to be closely related to comparison. Ireland is applying the straight whatever scheme of the Fatstock Associa­ pound, it has done away with the green tion eventually emerges and I am sure we pound so there is no equality there, and in all got the message that it was going to take the United Kingdom there is an acceptance time to evolve. There are one or two things of the European Economic Community that I must emphasise. The Pig Marketing overall policy and an eradication of mono­ Board in Northern Ireland has no monopoly polies to the benefit of both the producer

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T645

and the consumer and this morning, of where are we encouraging agriculture and course, we have really scarcely touched on putting it on its feet to enable it to pull the position of marketing in the Isle of Man back the 800' men it has lost in recent years? which is one of the great problems which It is not happening. Many of these men is facing the Board and as the hon. member have come into Government employ. So we for Castletown has said, it is going to take have the position where there is quite an some little time. Now, I wonder if it is going imbalance in agriculture which, in fact, leads to take some little time because the Board this Court to produce money to help Manx has not the heart for it and is delaying young farmers to buy farms and I do not deliberately, or is it such a problem in condemn that, I welcome it, but on the other itself? I do not think so. I think the prob­ hand, the situation would never have arisen lem is in the acceptance, if you like, of if Manx agriculture had been competitive in European Economic Community control. itself because the farmers concerned would There must be an acceptance of the fact that then have had the resources themselves to there must be operations here compatible compete with the incoming purchasers who with European Economic Community law. brought their money from selling up their To do that the control of the abattoir in estates elsewhere, whether it be in England the Island must be handed over to Govern­ or Ireland, to come here and buy property. ment and Government must run that abat­ They have got the resources because they toir in the future and, as a member of the have a prosperous agriculture. And so today Government, I do not want to see a cutting there can be no complacency, Your Excel­ room installed in that abatttoir at this stage lency, in relation to the industry as a whole, because I feel sure that the cost to the no more than there can be complacency consumer, and indeed the producer, is going with regard to fishing. It is all very well to be a substantial one and I would like an saying, you know, we are getting so many assurance from the Chairman that, in fact, million out of fishing, indirectly perhaps, no money has been spent on this cutting but the situation is one, in my book, of room to date, that the Board of Agriculture totally inadequate processing. The Island have not paid for equipment, for instance, loses all the benefit when those ships sail out ahead of this vote. I think the Court would of Douglas bay taking the raw material to welcome such an assurance, particularly in another port and we are incapable of view of the fact that this matter has been handling a significant proportion of the stuff deferred by the Court for some months to that is clearly capable of being processed enable the whole question to be examined in this Island to the benefit of the whole properly and, as I understand it, not even community. So, by and large, there are the butchers have been consulted prior to, many problems facing agriculture, facing I believe, payments being made. However, fishing, but I think the one that has to be I may be wrong on that point and I stand to taken in hand immediately is the marketing be contradicted. Generally speaking, Your one. This is the one where truths, untruths, Excellency, the agricultural industry is in half-truths, clouds, are all used to confuse a difficult position. When we hear this and there need be no confusion because the morning of the help that is being given to position is quite clear. Let us get down to the underpaid workers, it may interest the operating under the European Economic Court to know that there are quite a lot of Community rule that is applicable to the farmers in this Island whose wives work for Isle of Man, let us clear the air. Manx nothing, getting less than the underpaid farmers can export, Manx butchers can workers we are helping today and getting import, and it is in the interests of both the nothing on their investment to boot. That is producer and consumer that this should a pretty bad reflection, if you like, on the happen. It is no good farmers asking for agricultural administration because, Your help if, on the other hand, they say stop Excellency, over the years we have been imports because they are going to benefit following a policy which has depleted the the consumer. I do not think farmers agricultural industry of its resources. Where generally would wish to do this while, of is the labour force? We talk of helping course, they would also wish to have the Government’s labpiir force and building up opportunity of exporting themselves. Now, the 6,000 that we have at the moment, but again, reverting to Southern Ireland, the

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. T646 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

price structure on livestock in Southern but I did get a different impression from Ireland last week was about £50 a hundred­ my friend on my right. But there is one weight and in the Isle of Man it was just thing that I did find yesterday, and I was over £30 a hundredweight. We know that very pleased to hear it, too, in discussion, from the consumer’s point of view the pro­ that the farmers of Northern Ireland were duce in the Isle of Man, particularly meat, really going ahead now on the tourism and if you look at the recent retail index you farming angle and that most of the farming will find in the Isle of Man it is far, far community in Northern Ireland took in higher than in the United Kingdom despite visitors and this is a very lucrative part of the fact that producers are getting less. So their income. This is something which I in between there is this problem that the think we must progress in the Isle of Man. Board have to tackle and it is no use playing It is, they said, the tourism of the future and around with this at all. It has got to be and this is something we must think about grasped, this particular nettle. We have got very deeply, Now, the impression I got to take over control of the abattoir, we when we talked to the Pig Marketing Board have got to allow producer co-operatives to was just this, that Mrs. Quayle is quite right ■operate in the Island and we have got to in some respects, but at the same time the •obey European Economic Community law. Pig Marketing Board did say that these pro­ ■I wish the Board success in achieving those cessing industries must be kept at arm’s 'objectives because once they have achieved length from the Board itself, and yet the them then they are on the way to stabilising Pig Marketing Board have one wholly- the farming industry and stopping the run owned subsidiary, they also have extensive down and the sell out that has taken place interests in other processing factories and in recent years. they have also appointed members onto the management of these other processing fac­ Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, just a few tories. Now this, to me, is slightly different general remarks about agriculture. The first from the way Mrs. Quayle put it. We are impression I have got today is that the value clarifying this position and I hope that this of exports has come out very strongly here will be clarified, and that the talks we had and it has been said that we should look for will come back in a form that we can a balanced industry, where we know exactly understand because, as you know, you some­ what we are going to export and what we times do get a different impression when are not going to export. This is an extremely you are talking than you do when it is put difficult exercise. I think in our particular down in black and white. May I just say case you have got to go for a surplus. In this, in congratulating my Chairman on dealing with that surplus you have got to putting his remarks forward today, that I have something you can actually sell and believe he should not be called a Chairman, this is where my first thought comes in, that he should be called a task-master, because we on the Board of Agriculture have made that is really what he has been since I every effort to increase the standard of the joined the Board. He has tried to progress fat beast, or the cattle in the Isle of Man these matters with every association we have and perhaps this standard leaves a little bit been in touch with. This has been on the to be desired. I must say here that we are go for quite a while and we have not wasted working with people and not on our own in any time at all up to the present. I con­ this because we can formulate the policy but gratulate my Chairman on his impartiality we cannot force people to do what we want and his absolute fairness in trying to put them to do always, and I would like to think this forward. that we, as farmers, are working with partners now who will try to raise the Mr. Lowcy: Your Excellency, could I standard of their stock so that when we have have a point of clarification from my hon. something to export we will have something friend? Could he tell me, I am not quite which we know we can' sell to advantage sure, when the Board went away yesterday across the water. That is the first thought did they go to discuss one particular scheme, that I have. I just wanted to say that I, too, two particular schemes, or just the general was across the water yesterday in Northern operation appertaining in Northern Ireland? Ireland and I do not know whether I was Mr. Quirk: I think this is a point my listening with my left ear or my right ear, Chairman can answer, Your Excellency.

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T647

The Governor: I call on the Chairman to handicaps. They have the handicap of trans­ reply. port to get their raw materials here. It costs, I am told — Mr. Callin probably can con­ Members: Agreed. firm it — somewhere about £15 a ton to bring fertilser to the Island or to bring feeding stuff. These are just some of the Mr. Kerruish: The cries of “Agreed” fall aspects that we feel bear hardly upon Manx very agreeably on my ears, Your Excellency, producers and if we can present a case but I think in courtesy to the numerous which we feel would be justified in getting members who, as usual, have spoken on the support of the Finance Board by having agriculture I should comment on some of certain areas classified as less favoured their remarks. Now, Mr. Anderson, who regions then, going back to the comments was the first contributor to the debate did of my hon. friend, Mr. Norman Radcliffe, touch upon the question of the 12-mile limit. it would enable us to give certain people Well, I can assure the hon. member that this under certain schemes a much better is a matter with which the Board is very measure of grant than is the case at the much concerned, I know the fishermen are moment. Mr. Callin, I think he would very much concerned and the Common concede that in my introductory remarks to Market Committee of Tynwald are very the Estimates I did spend some little time much concerned. This is not a simple issue. If we could wave a magic wand and extend on the question of the cost of oil for glass­ our territorial waters to 12 miles everybody house producers. This is one subject upon would clap their hands but it is not as which we have spent a lot of time. We have simple as that. The United Kingdom certainly met the glass-house growers on Government is concerned, the European •more than one occasion and we are due to Economic Community is concerned, and the meet them again on Wednesday of next whole thing is extremely complicated. I can week. We have met the resident oil assure the Court, sir, without divulging any companies and we have certainly met some confidences, and Mr. Speaker is Chairman other oil companies who were hoping that of the Committee, that we are doing all we they might be able to get a toe hold in the can to pursue what we consider a matter of Island’s oil market, but the cake here is so fundamental and long lasting importance to small that it cannot be cut up 'between too the Island. Beyond that point I cannot say many. This is a very difficult problem. I am at this stage except that certainly London talking now not only to Mr. Callin but also knows our very strong views and I sincerely to the hon member, Mr. Norman Radcliffe. hope by now that they are known in I believe there is only going to be one Brussels. For our part, we will continue to solution to this particular problem. If press this one as one of paramount im­ Government are very concerned, and I think portance to the long-term well-being of they could probably be concerned, with the Island, not only the fishing industry. expansion in our horticultural sector by Another point on which I would like to having more glass-houses erected and assure the hon. member is that we have boosting our exports in cut flowers, then indeed addressed ourselves to examining the Government have got to come down firmly Island’s position with regard to a certain with the view of saying we will give some portion of it being classified as a less measure of support, maybe through the favoured area. Indeed, when we went to medium of some subsidy in the cost of oil. Northern Ireland yesterday, Mr. Bregazzi, This is perhaps not a simple issue, it is one who accompanied us, did have meetings that we are continually discussing with my with certain other departments with a view hon. friend, the Chairman of Finance Board. to ascertaining just what criteria applied It is one that we are not going to let go, there and I may as well tell you that in the we believe there is great potential in this not too distant future the Board will be con­ area and we would very much like to help tinuing its travels by going to Scotland and them. I would say to Mr. Callin that grants Cumbria to see if they can learn a little bit to horticulturists in the Island are at least more about this particular situation. There as favourable, if not a little better, than is no disputing the fact, Your Excellency, enjoyed ¡by their counterparts in the United that Manx producers do suffer from many Kingdom. I was gratified to hear the hon.

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. T648 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

member for Peel’s remarks in support of play safe, farmers, maybe equally with all our conservation measures and the emphasis others, are individualists and they are very, we placed upon fisheries in my remarks. I very difficult men to drive into any par­ would go with him, I think we have reached ticular direction. Most of them are very the stage now when the situation would shrewd business men and they recognise justify a full-time fisheries officer. This is that they are in a business where once they one that I intend to pursue and I think it have taken a step they are tied to that would be in the interests of the industry particular line for maybe some years. When generally and beneficial to the Island. Now, you plough up a field you cannot get it the hon. member, Mr. Norman Radcliffe, back into grass again, most of them go felt that it was the Minister of Fisheries through a rotation before it comes back who got to his feet this morning, but I into grass again, so I think most farmers make no apologies for that. I did lead in do consider very carefully the potential of with the largest issue in our Estimates, the markets before they change their £j million provision, loans to farmers to system, and to lay down firm guidelines purchase their farms, but I make no against a very fluctuating background like apologies for placing great emphasis upon the agricultural scene is very difficult. I the fisheries side of our activities. I tried would not like to encourage my hon. friend to outline in my remarks the value of this into believing that we could give firm blossoming industry to the whole of the guidelines. Certainly we would like to give Island, and I welcome it. There was one them guidance to this extent that we will en­ particular term he used to which I must deavour, as I said in my concluding remarks, take exception and that is the term “sur­ to ensure that they get a fair return for plus”. I do not look upon the production of their goods and their services and I sincerely more fatstock than the Island requires — hope, and I am sure we will have the sup­ and now I am talking to my hon. friend, port of this Court, including Finance Board, the member for Rushen, Mr. Cringle — nor behind us, in this particular endeavour. It the production of more grain or any other was on a question of finance that the hon. agricultural product, as I pointed out these member concluded his remarks. Have we are some of our natural resources, so we do provided enough money in our Estimates? not want to talk about surpluses, we want Well, certain of the provisions here cannot to talk about increased exports that will be quantified at this stage. As I pointed out help the whole of the Island’s economy. The earlier on, a lot turns on the level of sup­ only area there might be some query over is port that is decided upon by the agricultural potatoes, and I think that is probably one ministers in Brussels — Mr. Silkin is out that can be looked after by their own there at the moment — but Tynwald has producers’ organisation. As far as I am always accepted the view that if there have concerned, I am refraining from the use of been major changes in support we would be the word surplus. We used to talk about justified in going to the Finance Board, and surplus milk but I no longer use that term. subsequently to this hon. Court, to get the I talk about the 800 tons of cheese we necessary support in order to look after the export from the Island which brings £1 farmers properly. Now the hon. member for million of new money into the Island from Rushen, Mr. Lowey, was gratified to see extra production of milk, and that is what that we had placed emphasis upon fishing, we want to aim for. The more new money and I was rather disappointed at his slanted we can bring into the Island, particularly implications that this was almost wholly due to the producers themselves and was more if it is created out of our own natural or less detracting from anything the Board resources and the know how of our own has done in this particular direction. Well, people, that I think is the right line to I have been a member of this Court long follow. So please, in future, hon'. members, enough to recall when we convened meetings omit the word “surplus’’. As far as guide­ in the Legislative Council chamber in those lines for the industry are concerned, well, days with fishermen from all over the Island sir, I think everyone would concede that with a view to getting a scheme off the farmers probably above all others, maybe ground and the Board have always been this also includes fishermen, I had better right behind the industry in preaching the

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T649

gospel of co-ordination in their approach it, there should be cutting room, facilities to the problems in the industry. I think we attached to it. I think this is something that could properly claim to have played a worth­ will have to come and it is far better for it while and meaningful part in encouraging to come now when we can get it erected fishermen to co-ordinate their efforts in the at a comparatively modest figure than in a interests of their own industry and them­ few years’ time when we will find inevitably selves. I would draw the hon. member’s that we will simply have to have a cutting attention to the fact that in the Estimates room there. If we are going to have full I have just presented there is £300,000 ear­ production, which all hon. members seem to marked for loans and £100,000 earmarked support, and therefore have an export for grants, but even as far back as 1974/75 surplus, because what is the situation — in the loans paid out totalled £34,000; 1976, January of this year, sir, as a result of the £100,000; 1977, £99,000; 1978, £96,000; and lamentable lorry drivers’ strike in the United this particular year I think a full allocation Kingdom — probably fully justified in the of £100,000 will be paid out, so there has eyes of the people who drive the lorries — been long-term support by this Court, there was a pile up of fatstock on the Island, through the medium of the Board of Agri­ it could not be shipped off, but in order to culture, to help our fishermen develop their try to contain the situation to a certain industry and we are delighted it is flouri­ extent, the Fatstock Marketing Association shing, and as far as we are concerned we hired a machine, which they eventually are 100 per cent, behind them. We are in bought with their own money — no money constant touch with the Fishermens’ Asso­ at all from the Board of Agriculture, Mr. ciation on many matters. Some of them are Speaker, on this one — and they set about more or less of a private nature which I cutting up and vacuum packing certain cuts would not consider wise to discuss here but which they would be able to store in their it is all directed towards encouraging this limited storing capacity, a very much larger excellent organisation which I think has number of carcases in cut up form, in boned a great »part to play both for the men in form, than would be the case if they had to it and for the Island generally. Now, as far store them simply in carcase form. Now, as his colleague, the hon. member, Mr. we heard of this and immediately the Board Cringle, is concerned, I do welcome this convened a meeting of the Fatstock Mar­ opportunity of spelling out very clearly keting Association and the Butchers’ Asso­ that the Secretary of the Board was mis­ ciation. We feel that there is quite a wide quoted in that article in the “Farmers’ gap between these two bodies at the moment Weekly” to which the hon. member re­ ferred. The Board of Agriculture and its and we are trying to bridge it, and I can officer are fully behind maximum, produc­ assure you, hon. members, it is not a very tion as far as we are concerned. It would easy task. However, as a result of that the be simply unthinkable to gear our produc­ Fatstock Marketing Association set about tion to only the requirements of the Island. cutting and boning quite a lot of carcases. I hope I have spelled out in my preceeding It was with a view really to stockpiling for remarks that we are all out for full produc­ the summer trade but it turned out that a tion in the interests of the producers them­ large proportion of the Island’s butchers selves and certainly in the interests of the bought those cuts and as far as I know are Island as instanced in the value of our still buying quite a lot of those cuts. Well, exports. Mr. Delaney, now I thought the now, the hon. member is shaking his head, cutting room was going to keep its head but I am stating facts. It shows that there down. My hon. friend, the Chairman of the is a demand from the trade for cut up meat. Consumer Council, was silent on this, but I am not a butcher, I believe the bulk of in view of the fact that Mr. Delaney in his them are very shrewd businessmen and they remarks calls for a reply, I had better make know what is the best thing to do and they my own personal position clear and say that are buying cuts from the Fatstock Mar­ as far as I am concerned I am more than keting Association and if it pleases them to ever convinced that in the Island’s only do so, good luck to them, it is none of my abattoir, irrespective of who has control of business. But furthermore, and I am going

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. T650 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

to touch more fully on. this in my remarks They are not free to do it of their own a little bit later on, in view of the policy accord. They cannot breach the Determina­ that we feel has got to be pursued in con­ tion without the approval of the Board. formity with the decision of Tynwald that we have got to conform as far as we can Mr. Kerruish: That is quite correct, but it with the present conditions to Community would be manifestly unfair that if they were rules, I think there is no doubt at all that subject to competition they were — (inter­ we cannot withhold import licences to the ruption) — and I am glad to see that my Butchers’ Association and, indeed, at the friend, the hon. Chairman of Consumer present moment there is lodged in the Council would go with that one. That is the Board’s office an application for licences position. I have mentioned these points from the Republic of Ireland. Now I do not concerning the cutting room in deference want to divulge the butchers’ business too to the hon. member for Douglas East who much but included in the applications there, apparently feels very strongly on it. Mrs. and there' is no secret about it, I do not Quayle, my hon. colleague on the Board, ■think they would conceal it, is an applica­ she did touch upon our visit yesterday to tion for one 18-ton container of beef cuts, Northern Ireland where we had discussions, so when we are importing from another as she said, with the Northern Ireland Pig country, when we are importing beef from Marketing Board and also with Ministry the Republic of Ireland, even though we officials. We were concerned, not with have got a lot here, they have got to be working upon a narrow front, we have been brought in in cuts, and, this is a vindication directed by Tynwald to bring our milk of the fact that to compete with modern marketing scheme and our fatstock mar­ conditions today our own one national keting scheme into conformity with the abattoir should have cutting room, facilities. requirements of European Economic Com­ munity rules. Now, to a very large extent here we are working on unchartered seas. Mr. Delaney: A point of clarification. We were in London not all that long ago What I asked was this, sir, would you and we had discussions there which gave reaffirm that the Agricultural Marketing us some guidance on the milk marketing Society at the moment have not legally, scheme which, at the moment, I think, has under the 1934 Act, the right to retail direct been sent back to us by the learned to the public the same as the butchers do? Attorney-General with a view to further Would you reaffirm that? vetting and clarification. We feel that par­ ticular area is relatively simple, if such a Mr. Kerruish: I am glad the hon. mem­ term can be used in connection with agri­ ber has made that point, sir. Legally there cultural marketing at all, because we have would be no objection to them retailing but, the example of the Milk Marketing Boards now, yes, permit me to finish, stemming in the United Kingdom who have agreed from the fatstock marketing scheme there to schemes which they are now going to put is the Determination, a long and very com­ into operation, these having met with plex document, and in that it is very clearly approval from Brussels. As far as fatstock spelled out and laid down in black and white is concerned, the only guideline we have to that so long as the Fatstock Marketing go on is the Northern Ireland Pig Marketing Association are the only wholesaler on the Board, who were the subject of a judgment Island they will not indulge in the retail from Brussels and were given very firm trade. Now I assume, sir, once there is guidelines but they are finding, as my hon. another wholesaler, once the butchers or colleague has said, that it is quite a compli­ anyone else import on carcase meat here, cated issue. It is quite clear that certain then the Determination would foe breached monopolistic aspects of this marketing and the Fatstock Marketing Association scheme will have to go. It is also clear that would be free to exercise its discretion in there will be, within the indicated lines that that particular regard. we received today, and I am only speaking on very broad principles at the moment, Mr. Lowey: With the permission of the room for a very large degree of co-ordina­ Board, if I may point out, Your Excellency. tion amongst producers themselves, and yet

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 T651

a degree of freedom, amongst producers to accept that we are a very small themselves. They feel in Northern Ireland, community. Our whole market could be and I hope we are not breaking any con­ forfeited and upset dramatically by a fidences because we received the greatest comparatively small amount of imports, so courtesy and the greatest of help there, I we have got to do the best we can for the cannot speak too highly of the very agree­ Island and see what will emerge as a result able and very helpful manner in which we of our enquiries. He also touched on the were received, but it is early days. At the cutting room. I think there is only one point moment there the Northern Ireland Pig concerning that that I did not mention and Marketing Board are consulting with their that is that in all our marketing situations own Ministry and through them with we keep in touch with the producers and the Brussels, they have also been to Brussels, butchers and as far as the onus that lies on and they are ironing out an acceptable type the Board to report to Tynwald next week of system which will be acceptable to is concerned, we have written to all con­ Brussels and yet serve the community. Well, cerned, to the Consumer Council, to the it is not an easy matter. We feel we got a butchers, to the producers and other lot of help there. I am quite satisfied that organisations, asking for their views in order we are a little bit further along the road, that we will be able to transmit them to but I would be misleading the Court if I Tynwald. He asked where is the labour were to say that we would find a way out force. Well, let us face it, a lot of the small of this particular problem very, very quickly units in the Island, with today’s cost of but we are following very much along the labour, many of the comparatively small lines of the Northern Ireland people. We men find it more profitable to put their would very much like to see a system emerge capital into new equipment in order that in which there would be quite a large degree they can utilise mechanisation to the full, of co-operation betwen the producer and the and the prospect of any large back flow of middle man, not forgetting the consumer, labour into the agricultural industry in the with a view to ensuring that as much of the Isle of Man is somewhat remote. It is just Island’s own produce would be used here one of the symptoms of a greater degree of and we could eliminate as much of our mechanisation in the industry and the imports as possible, notwithstanding the fact impact is felt generally in agriculture. He that probably we could not prevent them, spoke at length on the fact that if more had coming in, but if co-operation can lead to been done in the past it would probably us using as much of our own produce as have obviated the need for an agricultural possible, ithe Board would be very much holding loan scheme and our own young behind that. It is early days but we are men having to be given assistance for the certa'nly working on it, and I would not purchase of their farms. I disagree com­ like anyone to get the idea that we are pletely with that. The forces that have had dragging our feet. It is an extremely com­ an impact upon the agricultural land situa­ plicated subject where we are hoping to act tion are very much stronger than in the as the honest broker in the middle and one case of the hon. Mr. Speaker. This is not of the last things I did before I entered this a problem that is peculiar to the Isle of Court was set in motion wheels which I Man. It is happening in England, it is hope w.ll lead to yet another meeting happening in Scotland, and at the present moment the Government in the United between producers and butchers on Thurs­ Kingdom are eagerly awaiting the report day afternoon of this week. Mr. Speaker from the Lord Northfield Committee on this touched generally upon the future of very subject, the very thorny subject of the marketing and I hope that some of my occupancy and ownership of land. I do not broad comments relating to our visit to know, they have not done anything up to Northern Ireland will indicate that we do now. We have done something positive and accept that changes will have to foe made. of all the votes that we have tabled and We are hoping that there will emerge a presented to Finance Board, this is one that system that will embody the measure of I would very, very much like to see go freedom that Europe calls for and yet which through as an indication of Tynwald’s sup­ will be beneficial to the Island. We have port for our endeavour, to have as much as

Estimates of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Approved. T652 TYNW ALD COURT, M A RCH 27, 1979

possible of our own farmland in firm Manx Cumbria, just to see about Brussels’ legis­ hands. He also touched on a matter very lation. When the Manx say go to the dear to his heart, a greater degree of pro­ fountain head, why on earth does he not cessing of herrings in the Isle of Man. I did take his little party and head for Brussels touch upon that I think, sir. in my comments and get the answers there? concerning the fishing industry generally. This is a matter that is the concern not Mr. Kerruish: Could I just answer that, only of the Board but also of the Industrial Your Excellency? Whilst we are having a Advisory Council. We are only too happy trip to Ireland certainly to get guidelines as to give support, through the medium of the far as the marketing scheme is concerned, Board, where we can, and certainly through why we are visiting Scotland and Cumbria, the Industrial Advisory Council, with a is to ascertain conditions and see if we can view to having more of our products pro­ find out what we can present to our own cessed in the Island. It does not matter Finance Board with a view to getting some whether it is a product of agriculture or extra finance and suport for some of these fisheries, the more of this that can be done, support schemes. It is quite within the the creation of more job opportunities, the competence of this hon. Court to do it creation of new added value to all our without going to Brussels. products in the Island, these are matters The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. we all want to pursue, so I can assure him members? that we are in favour of that, where we can. Finally, sir, I would like to thank my It was agreed. hon. colleague, Mr. Quirk, for his kind remarks. I can very feelingly endorse his comments that the Board of Agriculture at the moment has not got a very easy task. ESTIMATES OF POLICE BOARD The marketing situation really is the only — APPROVED. one area where I feel there is a large measure of disturbance within the industry. The Governor: Item 23. The Chairman of /The hon. member for Rushen rather sug­ the Police Board. gested the industry is in a state of turmoil. That is not so. It is not very often that you Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, I beg to find turmoil amongst a gathering of farmers move:— but they are concerned about the future of That Tymvald requests the Finance Board their marketing system. This is the big area. to give consideration in the preparation of We, as a Board of Agriculture, are trying the Budget to the Estimates of the Police to tie the interests of both sides together Board a; shown in the Book of Estimates under our remit from Tynwald that mar­ for 1979/80. keting schemes of the future have to con­ Your Excellency, it is like music to my ears form to European Community rules. We are to hear shouts of “agreed”, but very briefly, endeavouring to do that. It is not an easy in moving the resolution for the adoption of task, we have spent a tremendous amount the Police Board Estimates, I think it is of time on it already, we are right in the appropriate because it has a slight bearing on middle of it. I would like to see some day­ the Board’s Estimates, for me to inform this light at the end of the tunnel. We are doing hon. Court that the new police headquarters the very best we can, we are most con­ at Glencrutchery Road are virtually com­ cerned that the system that will emerge will plete, save the inevitable tidying up by the not only be beneficial to the great industry builders and various small tasks and it is, of agriculture but, of course, will be of course, history now to most of you that beneficial to the Island. the police did move in on Sunday, 18th March, and communications were effectively Mr. J. N . Radcliffe: Your Excellency, the changed over on Saturday and Sunday. hon. Chairman of the Board of Agriculture Before commenting on the more important starts talking about a little trip to Ireland, details of the Board’s estimates, I should they are going to have a little trip to Scot­ like to use this timely opportunity to thank land, they are going to have a little trip to this hon. Court for having supported the

Estimates of Police Board—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 T653!

principle of a new purpose-built police career in the police does not hold sufficient headquarters and for having subsequently appeal, and whatever anyone may think approved the funds necessary to build and about the 'adequacy of the pay and equip it. The Millennium activities in 1979 allowances of the police, I suppose the acid are going to impose an enormous strain on test is whether there is sufficient to stimu­ the police who are inevitably going to have late recruitment and to retain the existing to play an important official role in virtually work force. At the present time it does not every public event. The new headquarters seem to be working and this could be a and the equipment ■ in it, I am sure, will commercial for any fine young Manxman contribute greatly towards easing the burden who wants to join the Manx police. With of this important work. Thank you once the considerable volume of extra police again on behalf of the police and the Police duties which will arise in this Millennium Board for the principle of building a head­ year it is hoped that recruitment will pick quarters. Incidentally, of course, if members up and, as I have just said, suitable pro­ would like at any time to have a look at vision for wages and allowances are included the facilities at the headquarters, there are in the Estimates. It is certain that Millen­ two ways they can do this. (Laughter.) You nium activities will demand extra duty and can certainly do it by invitation or arrange­ overtime from the police to a greater extent ment, otherwise if you want to go home than in a normal year and this also is tonight and kick the wife’s dog or some­ reflected in the Estimates. May I, Your thing, we will be glad to have you up there Excellency, at this time, thank both the and give you bed and breakfast. (Laughter.) non-Tynwald and Tynwald members of my Now, turning specifically to the Estimates, Board and pay tribute, if I could at this whilst the proposed Revenue Estimates show particular time, to Mr. Bill Quayle who was increased expenditure amounting to some­ a long-serving and very useful member of thing like 23 per cent, over last year, there my Board. He was a very great help to me is nothing exceptional in this year’s Esti­ and I benefited from his experience. I would mates, and apart from rising costs generally also like to thank the officials for their this increase arises from two main items. constant good service and I am glad publicly The first cause of the increase in the to have the opportunity to welcome Mr. Board’s Estimates is the inclusion for the Callin aboard to serve with us on the Police first time of the full cost of heating, lighting Board. Last but not least, of course, I would and maintaining the police headquarters. In like to take the opportunity on behalf of the the past, of course, the police have occupied Police Board to send our very good wishes premises, that is to say, the court-house to Sir John Bolton, a very valuable member building in Athol Street, Douglas, owned of our Board, for a speedy recovery. by the Government Property Trustees, with the result that some of the expenses of Members: Hear, hear. occupation by the police have been paid by the Government Property Trustees. This Mr. Ward: Other than these main points, situat:on has inevitably resulted in an the Board’s Estimates are unexceptional and artificially low figure for the certain basic follow the trend of previous years so, rather police overhead expenses that were actually than occupy the Court’s valuable time going involved. In addition to the Board having through each item at this particular time, I to pay its own household bills, the new will simply move, sir. headquarters is bigger than the old head­ quarters and has more facilities which, in Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I would like turn, result in increased running costs. The to take the opportunity to second and say second major item of increased expenses is that I support my Chairman in presenting the provision of pay and allowances for the the Estimates of the Police Board. As a new force, assuming that in the next financial member of the Police Board I would .like year recruitment successfully brings the to make just one brief comment and that force up to its full committed establishment. concerns the new police headquarters itself. It is presently under strength and has been Seven hundred and fifty-eight thousand for a considerable, time, and it may be some pounds, hon. members, is a great deal of source of regret that at’the present time a money but I am sure that in the long-term

Estimates of Police Board—Approved. T654 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

this will turn out to be a very good invest­ Chairman please tell me -what duties he ment indeed. The Chairman did mention hopes the special constabulary increase will the problems with regard to recruitment to be carrying out? Does he see that they will the force, it has been very slow in the past. be doing mainly traffic duties when we have The comment that I would like to make an increase of 42? there is that when you looked at the old Mr. P. Radcliffc: Your Excellency, quite police station it is a wonder they got as recently the Finance Board had the pleasure many as they did, and I am sure that the facilities which now are available at the new of doing a tour of inspection of the new police station and I ami certain we would headquarters will go a long way towards rectifying this problem. like to compliment everybody on the work­ manship that has been carried out in that Mr. Anderson: I will be very brief, Your building. In our Estimates, when we are Excellency, it is just on the very topic of looking at them from time to time, we find the £758,000 which actually turned out to that various Boards require all kinds of be £669,000. What very good value for extra facilities. Now we associate many money that is when you compare it with things directly with the police station but £2 million which we are thinking of for a indirectly there are certain facilities within new court-house today. What a very good that police station which I feel certain could investment it is and very good value for be utilised by other Boards of' Tynwald and money and I compliment the contractors coming back to my old theme of trying to who did this job. I think it was the first job ger co-operation and full usage made of of this nature that McArd’s undertook and buildings, I would hope, and I know the I understand they have done a very good Chief Constable did tell us on the day we job indeed. had the pleasure of going through it that he was quite prepared to co-operate with Mr. Kermeen: We now have a building of any other Board of Tynwald with the high standard and I hope it will be matched by the high morale of the police force. I facilities that are now there, large rooms have only got one query to ask. Progress, suitable for meeting rooms for various of course, must go on. Is there any indica­ committees, possibly court hearings, and I tion from the hon. Chairman of the Police would like the hon. Chairman to tell us Board when he might be introducing the whether or not he has made it known that Police Bill into the Legislature? his Board are quite prepared to co-operate with other Boards for the full usage of this Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, could I new building. just briefly ask, now that you have got your Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, if I may I new headquarters in its present position, is will reply to the last speaker first. No, sir, there going to be a manned police station in Douglas? I personally, very reluctantly, at this particular point in time we have not had really a great time to settle in but I voted for the police headquarters to be where they are now only on those do appreciate the remarks. If I could per­ conditions. haps cover the entire building, whoever has mentioned the building, in a few remarks, Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency. I have no I think the 'building is something to be very intention at all of commenting on the new proud of. It is a building that is going to building -but what does interest one is the take the police force, I hope very success­ increase or the wish of the Chairman to fully, into the 21st century. The space is increase the recruitment of police officers there, the opportunity to equip it efficiently, and I would say that I welcome indeed the technically, as I said, it will carry us into move which I have seen in the papers from the 21st century with a very modem police time to time of having a police constable station. I appreciate that the space is there attached to a particular area so that he will and if there is a possibility of it being used become that area’s policeman. I think that for any purpose I cannot see any fault in is something which I certainly welcome and that at all. Mrs. Quayle, yes, with regard T hope they will follow it through in more to the Douglas office. Strangely enough, areas so that people become accustomed to before I came onto the Police Board my having their policeman but could the hon. last duty before I left the Douglas Town

Estimates of Police Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T655

Council was to confront the Police Board have it recorded in the form of a division, on the very important issue of leaving a please? police presence in Douglas and as far as A division was commenced. I am concerned I will do my utmost to do that. It so happens that the actual offices The Governor: I think, hon. members, in are in a state of preparation at the moment that case we had better adjourn until half­ and will be opened, I am not quite sure past-two. what the hours are, certainly much longer The Court adjourned for lunch. than the Police Board wanted to open at that time. I can assure Mrs. Quayle that I will look after that angle. Mr. Kermeen, ESTIMATES OF MANX MUSEUM certainly, with regard to the Police (Amend­ — APPROVED. ment) Bill 1979, as it will become, it was held up to a certain extent but I am hoping The Governor: Hon. members, we resume that as soon as possible it will be back in with item number 24 and I call upon the the state where it will be going to the hon. Mr. Speaker. printers. Mr. Cringle, yes, I appreciate very The Speaker Your Excellency, I beg to much his remarks about the efforts of the move:— present Police Board and I can assure you that we will go on doing this, trying to Thai Tymvald requests the Finance Board to give consideration in the preparation of place a local policeman, a mature police­ the Budget to the Estimates of the Manx man, in local areas. I think we have tried Museum and National Trust as shown in to do this with regard to one or two estates the Book of Estimates for 1979/80. in Douglas and, recruitment and various Your Excellency, there seemed to be a little other things being equal, I hope we can confusion in the Court and perhaps I should extend this. With regard to the special explain why, hon. members having said constable force, I think it is envisaged now agreed, I asked for a division. For many that we have a special constable force which, years this hon. Court has asked for the to a certain degree, has given us certain Estimates to be accepted on sight. They have figures of an overall number but it is agreed to them on presentation but the probably known by the Police Board that hearing of the Finance Board has never been quite a lot of these, through age and long very clear and when we have come to the service, were ineffective. I .think the oppor­ Finance Board to pursue the Estimates, then tunity will be taken now in the new the Finance Board have ignored the declared headquarters where we have facilities for wishes of the Court and have merely said, training and more social amenities for ah, that was agreed, you know, you have no keeping these people together, I think we record of the occasion, so today I was hoping will embark now on a new recruiting drive to have a record establishing who, in fact, for specials and try to build it up that way. supports the Manx Muesum and National I suppose they would be used on whatever Trust and who does not. It is as simple as sort of duties are applicable. I do not think that. But, Your Excellency, in moving these there is anything else. Estimates this afternoon I would say that The Governor: Is that agreed? the Manx Museum and National Trust are struggling to meet responsibilities entrusted It was agreed. to them under the Act. The amount of finance given by Government would not be nearly adequate to meet their responsibilities ESTIMATES OF MANX MUSEUM if it were not for the support we get, in — ADJOURNED TO AFTERNOON particular from the public at large and, well, SITTING. from the special relationship of the Friends The Governor: Do hon. members wish to of the Manx Museum and Friends of the take item number 24 before lunch? National Trust. They do a terrific amount of work on behalf of the Museum and they Members: Agreed. enable us to have acquisitions of various The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am works which otherwise would not be within grateful to the Court for its support. May I our capabilities. We keep on trying to keep

Estimates of Manx Musem—Adjourned to Afternoon Sitting.— Estimates of Manx Museum—Approved. T656 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

abreast of the requirements of the day and been no positive indication that it wanted age in which we live and the Capital Esti­ this particular project to go ahead and, in mates which are presented to you today consequence, everybody else’s queue has reflect what indeed we have achieved up to come up and passed ours and many of the a point and the need for further planning. If creaking gates have got oiled and because you look at those Capital Estimates you we have not been making a noise we have will see that the Grove Rural Life Museum not got any support. So, Your Excellency, is the first item not requiring any money we go on to the purchase of land. This is directly this year but requiring some £2,500 a token amount, £10,000. I hope, with the in the Revenue Estimates in relation to Finance Board’s approval, that within a Rheast Mooar Lane which we have got to short time we will be coming to you for the make up as landowners adjacent to it and purchase of more land than this because, have to pay our share for that. The Grove as you are well aware, we only purchase has been a success story. The Grove came to land as and when suitable properties become us, as you know, as the result of a bequest. available to us and usually it is in relation It cost something like £10,000 initially, we to the coastal scene or an environmental put it together and in the half-year it was situation in the Isle of Man or, indeed, a operational last year some 7,500 people property perhaps related to Cregneish went through it in that time. I think it is village, this type of thing. This is merely a going to prove an asset to Ramsey and does token provision, Your Excellency, to enable represent an advance in the presentation of us to move if a suitable bit of land is on museum life, so to speak, in the Island. offer to the Museum. Then, improvements Now, Your Excellency, going on through to the Calf of Man bird observatory the Estimates, you will look at number 2 buildings. This is the old farmhouse on the and see that we are seeking money for the Calf of Man. It needs quite a bit of renova­ preparation of plans for an extension which tion at the present time. As you are well I spoke to the Court about as recently as the aware, the cost of taking materials over to last Tynwald and of which you have full the Calf and workmen to the Calf makes knowledge so I do not propose to labour this an expensive project to handle but I that one today, merely to say that the do not know whether hon. members are extension, as you are well aware, is the aware that we do take small parties on the result of 12 years of careful planning on the Calf to enjoy holidays there. We have a part of the Museum and National Trust, of capability there for accommodating a small the purchase and demolition of certain number of people in very, shall I say, properties adjacent to the Museum for this rigorous surroundings. It is appreciated and particular purpose, and today we are so our property there is usually full of tourists overwhelmed with the acquisitions at the in the proper season. Now, the under­ Museum that, frankly, we have a terrific grounding of cables at the Sound and job displaying appropriately those exhibits Cregneish — this is an ongoing thing and we have and indeed cataloguing them, So, those of you who know the Sound and the the extension, Your Excellency, is an ab­ Cregneish area are fully aware of what we solute must. I hope that the planning aspect are doing and the wisdom of doing it. I will be approved to go forward this year think anyone who knows the area will agree and, knowing full well that to get the whole that it has been improved immensely since thing into gear will take a little time, I am this programme was started and they were sure the Finance Board will allow us to aiming really to complete it by under­ launch this. I notice that the Chairman grounding right down to the Sound. I have mentioned in his opening remarks that some a soft spot for Cregneish in my thinking £14 million was available for capital works and I hope that here we will, of course, be this year. I appreciate that Finance Board doing a little more and, in this respect, I have the problem of ongoing responsibilities would say that speaking really in relation and the Museum would merely ask that this to number 6, the renovation of buildings at venture be allowed to proceed in the way of Cregneish, we are hoping to make those drawing initially and then take its place buildings live a little more, to be a live appropriately in the queue. Although this museum as opposed to the rather dead pro­ Court has said “agreed” every year there has duction of the present moment, a living

Estimates of Manx Museum—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 T657

museum. To this end, as you know, we have before the dam construction gets going. had craft operations there, there has been Then, Your Excellency, I mentioned the weaving, spinning and so on going on and craft line. There is also the preservation of we are hoping to extend the crafts side this the Island’s rare breed of sheep,. This is year, a blacksmith’s shop and that sort of something that we have been doing quietly thing at Cregneish, and make the whole over the years. The hon. member for concept come alive and more attractive, I Rushen, Mr. Walker, is Chairman of the believe, in its presentation. Now, Your Ex­ Committee which handles this responsibility cellency, the other point of interest here will and the Trust has three flocks at the moment be the Manx Museum’s Revenue Estimates — one on the Calf, one on Maughold Head which are pretty stable if you notice them. and the other at Sulby with Mr. Jack Quine There is very little variation here and little who has been really the key man in the to comment on except to tell you that the whole of the operation of reviving this par­ popularity of the Museum itself remains ticular breed which got down to about eight pretty good with the incoming tourists and animals some years ago and is now back in remains very, very steady in the minds of the hundreds. So this sort of activity is the Manx people. Last year we had about something which goes on quietly and with 108,000 visitors to the Museum and more little cost indeed to anyone connected with and more students come there to do research Government or the taxpayer and I believe work in the library. The library has proved we are doing good work in that respect. a real boon to so many students of, not only There are obviously many other items which the youthful variety, but students of Manx hon. members may wish to know about. I culture through the years. In addition I am quite prepared to try and answer your would say, on Cregneish, our visitor figures questions and, Your Excellency, I beg to were between 15,000 and 16,000 last year move the resolution standing in my name. and, again, with the “Peggy” at Castletown, Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I beg to that was between 10,000 and 11,000, and I second and support Mr. Speaker in pre­ mentione'&r the figure in relation to the senting these Estimates, particularly with Grove a little earlier. So, basically, little respect to the on-going situation with the change in the running expenses of the extension to the Museum. This has now Museum, and then we go on to outside been superseded on many occasions, as he responsibilities, and you may well ask what has already said, and I think if we do not are the outside responsibilities. Well the go on with it now we are going to be Museum and National Trust have some 78 flogging a dead horse for the rest of our monuments to maintain throughout the lives. The reason why I rise to my feet to Island and that is a costly enough little item support this is partly due to the fact that in itself, but we also have 1,634 acres of when the Commonwealth Parliamentary National Trust land which we are holding people were over, the two visits which really on behalf of the Manx people so with that gripped them in every respect and will give sort of responsibility there is an upkeep them a living memory of the Isle of Man — problem as the Government Proprety Trus­ that is, with the exception of their visit to tees, in particular, will be aware and we try my particular area — were the visits to the to maintain the properties in reasonably Manx Museum and the Viking house. These good condition as far as our Estimates will are situations which I think we must be able permit. Now, in addition, there are to be to put in front of and have there for the two excavations this year. The cost is not well-being and entertainment and the educa­ extremely high, £1,000 in each case, one at tion of our visitors. Rushen Abbey in the course of the year and Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I want to one up at Druidale on the site of the pro­ support one particular thing and that is the posed new dam. We believe there is work effort on the Calf of Man. I think this is a that could be done there in the excavation very well worthwhile project and I would line before the dam construction is well in like to think that support would be forth­ hand. There is an archeological site there coming for that because I know a lot of worthy of excavation and with the co­ people enjoy the amenities available there. operation of the Isle of Man Water and Gas I know there is a special queue for it during Authority it is hoped to carry that out Tourist Trophy week, to get away from it

Estimates of Manx Museum—Approved. T658 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

all. I hesitated earlier cm. in relation to this and National Trust would give consderation because the hon. Mr. Speaker mentioned to approaching bodies in England which developing the craft in the Island. I have have Manx records. I am thinking of the been here long enough now not to be caught British Museum, I am thinking of the Public out on a thing like this and I honestly feel Record Office, so that documents pertaining that we have got to deal with all these in solely to the Isle of Man — and I have had perspective really and this is why I did not cause to consider them and I am very grate­ want to be committed to something that was ful for the help which the archival section different to the sort of commitment that of the Museum gives me — should be freely would inhibit in any way the Finance Board available to the Manx people and they doing the job that they have got to do, I would not have to travel all the way to think this is the important thing. Although another capital to see documents relating to last month I did support Mr. Speaker in his Manx history. extension, in view of what has been placed Mr. Delaney: Yes, sir, I would like to rise before us since that occasion and knowing in support of what the hon. member for all the commitments of Government, I am West Douglas has said and would also refer most hesitant about supporting that today. to paragraph 5 on the Estimates for the In fact, I again would like this to be put into Museum. Would Mr. Speaker give some out­ the melting pot with all the other things that line linformation on whether representations the Finance Board have got to consider. I have been made or are to be made to stop do not disagree with my hon. colleague at the export of antiquities from the Isle of all that this is extremely desirable but when Man to central Europe and other places? In we think of our commitments in health and education and other things it has got to be, the last three or four months you have seen in my view, dealt with in perspective and advertisements appearing in the local papers I think we have got to keep these things in and now they have stripped Britain of all proportion and I do hope it will be avail­ its antiquities they are now stripping the able, but I certainly do not want to Isle of Man. jeopardise other things in the Budget in this Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I rise to respect and that is the reason I was not support the relatively modest requirements prepared on a division to support this of the Manx Museum for the new financial motion in the way it was being put this year. I think the cultural and the educational morning. contribution that the Museum makes to the life of the Island is considerable and prob­ Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, over the ably cannot be altogether measured in terms last 15 or 20 years I have heard many days of pounds and pence. I think also that the and hours spent on consideration of the very greatly needed extension to the Estimates. Every year it becomes rather an Museum will also add to the tourist attrac­ indigestible mass to assimilate and Mr. John tions of the Isle of Man, I think we cannot Clucas, when he was a member of this forget that too. Not only is it of educational Court, did suggest that apart from con­ and cultural advantage to the Island but it sidering briefly the Estimates and then does add to the tourist industry of the handing them over to the Finance Board for Island, I am sure of this. For that reason I consultation with the Boards preparatory to do support the Estimtaes of the Manx the Budget, there should be in the course of Museum. our sessions some time given each month to the consideration of the Boards’ policies. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I do This is a dual exercise we are doing. On not think any member of this hon. Court the one hand we are considering proposed will deny the fact that with the Manx expenditure by the Manx Museum and Museum we have something we are all very National Trust which we may not agree proud of and I am not going to go into with and on the other hand we have not the any detail on their Estimates. The one point opportunity, execpt briefly, and I try always I want to get clarified is this position we to keep my remarks on the Estimates brief, are likely to find ourselves in, or were to consider the policy of that particular likely to find ourselves in just prior to lunch. statutory body. All I can ask in the limited Now, as I understand it, our duty on the time available is whether the Manx Museum Finance Board is to look at the Estimates

Estimates of Manx Museum—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T659

that have been put before the hon. members. for the Museum is a worthwhile slice to They have been discussed and hon. members allow them to present our culture in a much have agreed to let them go forward for better way than we have got now. The hon. further consideration by the Finance Board. member talked about the material that has Now, if we are going to find ourselves in a been sent out of England to America and position where we could have a division, the Continent. There is a lot of material with votes recorded for or against this, I in the Museum which people donate and would like somebody to clarify it for me, what happens to -it? It gets stuck down in possibly the learned Attorney-General, on the cellar and it is left there for all time. what grounds 'then does the Finance Board If you are not going to make a move to operate? It would be an impossible situation display it soon a lot of this will not be for us if there was a division called for and worth displaying and I feel that the Museum the majority of the members of Tynwald deserves special consideration when we come voted for this resolution. What do we do? to consider Estimates. We have to face the fact that, as I see it, Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, in answer our duty on the Finance Board is that to Mr. Kneale, I am one of the members certain things are desirable, many, many who has been to the Museum, I have been things are desirable but there are a lot of things which are essential and we have got to see the “Peggy”, I have been to Creg­ to get our facts perfectly clear on what is neish and I have walked round one of Mr. essential and what is desirable. So I would Speaker’s monuments every day of life — seek some guidance on what the position (laughter) — but anyway there you are. I would be if the learned Mr. Speaker, with ■would say that in the new schemes in the his ability, does go for a division. What is Capital Estimates, item number 6 is the one going to be the position of the Finance which particularly interests me and that is Board in considering these Estimates? the figure which is in there for the renova­ tion of the buildings at Cregneish. Members Mr.,KneaIe: Your Excellency, all these 'could very well say that this is local politics, Estimates are only just given consideration if you like, but I think it does go a bit and I think that is a point that everybody further than being local politics as far as is aware of but I am supporting the Manx I am concerned and I am probably quite Museum Estimates because I have a very certain that goes too for the other members high regard for it and I am sure that is sitting on this bench. We certainly never shared by quite a lot of people but I wonder want to see Cregneish going backwards and how many members visit the Museum at all there are times when you can visit Cregneish in the course of the year? Would anybody and you think that possibly it is and this like to indicate who has been there in the would be retrograde for the Museum to past 12 months? Well, at least they are able allow it to happen. I was particularly to see for themselves what has been achieved interested in Mr. Speaker’s remarks about and they are also able to see for themselves the idea of a craft shop and craft develop­ what we lack and that is space. Now I do ment and nothing would please me more not think the Museum can progress if we than to see Cregneish as a village become a are going to put everything into categories living village so that it did become alive. of what is essential and what is necessary One could imagine, for example, going to and what is desirable and what is fancy see Cregneish in the summertime with a because they are going to be at the end of coach load of tourists or just your own the queue every time and I believe there friends who happen to be visiting you and are certain things when we are considering this blacksmith’s shop actually working. Estimates which we have got to put into a Now I feel that, apart from anything else, special category and I believe the Museum it could be of advantage to the Museum is one of these. Now, I supported the to have that blacksmith’s shop and possibly extension last Tynwald and I will support even a joiner’s shop actually employing a it again today. I am quite certain that the blacksmith and a joiner there and having it Finance Board, when they come to consider living and actually working. There must be matters, will try and give a fair slice of gate hinges, there must be door catches, the cake but I hope the slice of the cake there must be jobs of work to be done in

Estimates of Manx Museum—Approved. T660 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

every department of Government and if this tremendous asset both to ourselves and to smithy was open and the joiner’s shop open our children in the live presentation of a I am sure that other departments could call museum and also as a corollary and attrac­ upon them and it would be a living entity tion for our friends and tourists who come in the village of old crafts using the forge in the summertime. One last word, Your as it was. Excellency, I feel sure I said this last year Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, my hus­ and who knows, I might even, God willing, band has been on the Museum and National say it again next year, at the Calf I feel Trust since before he married me and I sure there are opportunities there to increase think he was Chairman for about 15 years the number of people who visit. I am not so no-one could be more interested in the suggesting it should be developed or ex­ work of the Museum and preserving the ploited but I feel sure there must be quite Manx way of life than he is and, therefore, a number of people, artists, naturalists, of course, myself, and I support these things ornithologists, who would love to spend a very strongly but I have to be honest with week or two weeks in the splendid isolation my conscience, Your Excellency, and say and the calm and peace that one gets on the that with this exercise last month and this Calf. I will not emulate my friend, Mr. month on the Estimates, I feel we cannot Kneale, of the Council, in asking for a show tie the Finance Board and I feel we do have of hands, but I sometimes wonder how to leave it to them. If I could put it like many people have been to the Calf and seen this, when all the chips of the Board are what a beautiful atmosphere it has to offer. down — and being a member of the Board I am not suggesting that this should be of Agriculture I refer to potato chips — it exploited commercially but I am sure there is up to the Finance Board who gets the are opportunities there for another specialist sauce on those chips and who does not. aspect of our tourist development and one which many people would be very happy to Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I enjoy and pay for. suggest that museums are things that we always need but can never afford and I think Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I think the the time comes, as in a family budget, where easiest thing at Estimate time is to vote for one has to make provision and I think the all things, regardless of what they should be. time has come now when we must give the Everything that is presented by the par­ Museum and National Trust the necessary ticular Boards concerned is a very desirable finance to carry on with this scheme that thing for the Isle of Man and we would all has been on the stocks for quite some con­ like to vote for everything and then say to siderable time. I feel that if we can enable the other fellows, that is the Finance Board, them to extend their building this will you sort out some of the things and cut obviously give them a great opportunity for this out and cut the other out. The Finance improved displays and, With that, better Board ask us at the beginning of these facilities for trading. This was something Estimates to give them some idea as to their that the delegation who went to Scandinavia priorities. Now here we have in the Museum last year were particularly impressed by. I Estimates very desirable items and I would think it was the museum outside Copen­ refer to just one, that is the extension to hagen, they had a flourishing trading post the Museum for which £70,000 is asked for there of really high-class craftsmen work, this year. It means that if we vote for this not just cheap souvenirs but really good hall­ £70,000 we are committed to £64,000, that marked souvenirs and I gathered from the is what it says in the book. Now, I say Director there that a very substantial part this is very, very desirable and so forth, but of their income came from these sales and we are advised that the cake is of a certain it is to be hoped that if the Museum can size and we do hear from the Chairman go ahead with their extension, with the of the Harbour Board that unless we opportunities it could provide, they too strengthen the Battery Pier and unless we could enter into this very rewarding field. extend the harbour protection we are in I would like to welcome Mr. Speaker’s trouble, we are going to have no harbour assurance about the live display of craft- at all. This is what he says. We are advised work at Cregneish. I think this would be a so far as houses and homes for elderly

Estimates of Manx Museum—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T661

people are concerned that there are many, is something that is an absolute must many elderly people who are suffering. They because, in my view, it is highly desirable have nowhere to go, nowhere where they but I would-prefer the more essential things can receive the care and attention which to come before that. they so urgently require and desire. We are Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I rise to told that as far as the accommodation is support the Estimates. I am a very frequent concerned for ordinary people that there is visitor to the Museum., particularly to the still a big demand for more and more houses library, and I am very surprised every time to be built for people and .to assist people I go at the hive of activity that is there. to build their own, which requires large It is not only a tourist amenity now, the lumps of Government money. We are Museum, make no mistake about it. The hearing about justice for Jurby and we population of the Island are all going to the subscribe to this. Museum to look up references and to look Members: Hear, hear. up articles that are in the Museum. Now we must ask the question, do we want to Mr. Nivison: Justice for Jurby, we think preserve our culture? Do we want to extend i: is a highly desirable thing that they should the preservation of our culture? If we do have a suitable place in which to house we must say “yes” to the extensions. I have the children who are being educated in that been asked, as Chairman of the Board of area. We are hearing that in Marown the Education, in this hon. Court, what are we children have to go from one side of the doing in the schools as regards Manx history valley away up to the other side — a highly and culture? If we are going to do this and desirable and, one would even add, essential give this education we must have this thing. I could go on with so many other extension, we must have the facilities of the things, too, Which are so important. One Museum to do just this. At the moment of the major things which was mentioned our students cannot go to do this, there is by the hon. member, the Chairman of the just no room for them, so we must have Local Government Board, was the demand this provision. Also, if we have the extension on the purse maybe for the extension of the and the provision we will be able to have tourist industry — new hotels and so forth, more exhibitions brought over from London. highly desirable in order that we shall earn We have a few now but the people in the our living. Now when you come then to vote Isle of Man have not got the opportunity betwen all these, justice for Jurby, the very of going to the Victoria and Albert highly desirable things to earn our living, Museum or to the National Museum to the very essential things to look after our see these exhibitions. If we had the facilities old folk and to look after our young here they could be brought over at intervals children in the form of schools and so and let the people of the Island have the forth, where does this extension of the advantage of seeing these exhibitions. I Museum come in? I am sorry to say it, strongly support it, Your Excellency. whilst I think it would be wonderful if we had it, it must come fairly well down on Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, I think the list. I think we must not be led into a that in Millennium Year it is a poor thing trap here to think that we can have every­ if we cannot afford to support the Museum. thing. If we do have everything we bave With the money that is being spent on the been warned that our whole social struoture Millennium, and I am not suggesting that and economic structure may be altered, it is not being properly spent, but surely, if in-so-far that we may have difficulty in we are going to support anything in Millen­ borrowing the money and even if we borrow nium Year, very high up on the list should the money we may have so many commit­ bo the Museum. One of the things I like ments associated with our finances that we about the proposal for the extension is this have got to alter our taxation system and — on page 78 it says, “This extension there we start on the slippery slope. So I would provide facilities for . . . (b) a would urge members of the Court, whilst museum schools’ service to support the they are enthusiastic about certain things, teaching of Manx studies in the Island’s do not mislead the Finance Board into schools.” I think this is a very admir­ thinking that an extension to the Museum able objective which I would imagine

Estimates of Manx Museum—Approved. T662 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

all members would wish to support. I do the interest shown by our Commonwealth not see any reason why this year we could visitors. It is true, where you have a rich not support .that because if in the Estimates culture it does appeal to the developing we were to support item 2(a) Preparation countries and there is no doubt at all that of plans, specifications, et cetera, at a cost that appeal is broadened in the Isle of Man of £55,000, that is not an outrageous sum, because of the very good quality of the if that could be approved by the Finance presentation of the whole history and back­ Board this year then we could re-consider ground of our people at the Museum itself. and go ahead next year, or as soon as it is Now, Mr. Anderson had fears about the financially possible to do so, and continue proposed development. I can only say to with the building of it. But at least we him now that for 12 years this matter has would be seen in Millennium Year to have been on the stocks and this is the major actually decided on a constructive proposal development at the Museum and at all times to prepare plans and to do something to we have had the same reply coming from forward and expand the Museum particu­ members like-minded to Mr. Anderson, the larly, as I say, in having a museum schools’ hon. member for Glenfaba, who have al­ service to support the teaching of Manx ways said that this is not the time, but, Your studies in the Island’s schools. I cannot Excellency, we have a situation where the think of a more admirable object to support Museum as such today, because of the in Millennium Year. penny-picking attitude of the past, cannot do the things that the hon. member, Mr. Mr. Craine: Your Excellency, I will be Kermeen, wants it to do. It cannot bring to very brief about this. We have heard from the Island from the national museums of the hon. member in Council, Mr. Nivison, Britain suitable items for display because about our priorities. Well, I would rather you have not allowed us to spend enough my children be taught in a nissen hut and money on security. This year, Your Excel­ have to run across the yard to the toilet lency, we are bringing over the “Chronicle as long as they had the facilities at the of Mann and the Isles”, the oldest record we Museum to learn about their Island. have of Manx history. It is coming from the British Museum and we have to put a The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am sure 24-hour guard on that at the request of the the Trustees of the Museum and National British Museum because, frankly, our Trust would be delighted by the response to security is not up to the standards it ought their proposals this afternoon. After all, we to be in their eyes and you have not let us have even had two members of Finance have any money. So, let us have the re­ Board giving qualified support, shall I say, sources to make the Museum secure and I to these proposals and this in itself is am quite sure we will get the items that you heartening. Now, Your Excellency, one’s seek for portrayal to the Manx people. We span of life is limited and we have all seen are trying our best to bridge this particular the sort of line where, from being young gap but it is like fighting with one hand men and young women, there were the behind your back. Now, Your Excellency, elders of the tribe, so to speak, around to Mr. Delaney has spoken of antiquities. Yes, pass on the local knowledge. The scheme has there is no doubt about it, there is a lot of changed and some of us are becoming the material going off this Island, but if we want elders and others are rapidly going in that to acquire something, hon. member, we direction, and the people whose interests per­ cannot get money very well from this Court, haps we have to serve more than any others we are going to try it shortly, but every are the people who are sitting at the back of time we want to acquire any particular item the gallery today, the young Manx people of tomorrow who want a record of the history, we have to go to the Friends of the Museum of the culture, of this Island, when they are for the money. Rarely have we been able becoming older and when they are unable to to extract any money from the Finance find any other source of information avail­ Board for this purpose and apart from able to them, as we are unable at this treasure trove we are hardly in a position to moment to find sources of information other acquire really good items to hold for the than in the Museum. So this afternoon I was future. But, happily, there is another side delighted to hear Mr. Quirk’s reference to to the coin. People are very generous and

Estimates of Manx Museum—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 T663

people do give us items which are of real can put it that way. This point has been value to us, but quite honestly we cannot taken up and the Museum are developing portray them today. Half of our items are as far as possible and as quickly as possible tucked away in cellars and we cannot put in this direction with a two-fold line to have, them on display. The hon. member, Mr. shall I say, a suitable momento of the Manx Kneale, made this point and it is real We Museum to take away with you, at a profit cannot effectively portray what we have got, to the Manx Government, and also to and we are with you all the way in trying to bolster the resources of Government in hold and portray, but give us some help in return for the support they are hoping to order to do this. get from the Finance Board. Now, Your Mr. Delaney: What about restrictions on Excellency, the Calf situation is one where export licences to stop these items going off we try to keep a balance. The boatmen are the Island? very helpful in relation to the Calf and they supply the need of the average daily tripper. The Speaker: I think one would find it We also have the people who stay at the very difficult to apply this. It is certainly warden’s house and we have to try to keep something we can give thought to but I our balance between the bird observatory, would find it very difficult in our thinking the Loughtan sheep flock and the tourist, if to define the type of thing you are going to you like. We have been doing this fairly restrict from movement off the Island be­ successfully up to now, I think. I would cause sometimes we even get items from the make one point here to express our in­ United Kingdom to bring into the Island. I debtedness to the lighthouse-keepers on the know that is not a good answer but there Calf for being on-the-spot shepherds. To a must be a bit of movement here and I would degree they look after the Loughtan flock say that we are concerned on any old issues there and keep an eye on it on behalf of the of this sort and we are aware of it. Now, Museum with, of course, no charge to Mr. Cringle, the hon. member for Rushen, Government. They are very co-operative spoke about Cregneish. I share in a way indeed. Now, the hon. member for Castle­ his anxiety about Cregneish. Cregneish for town I felt had lost the zest which retained me is not pulsing, it is not vibrant, it is the Smelt and the zest which battled for not alive enough for the present day. Like St. Mary’s. Today she was cool and I him, I want it to be a living ethnic village. wondered why. But, Your Excellency, I feel Perhaps in some ways we have got to pull sure that when it comes down to voting for back on many of the homes in Cregneish, the issue the hon. member for Castletown and I can say now that we are hoping to will be in there with the big majority of this come to the Court shortly, with the backing Court supporting the Museum vote. (Laugh­ of Finance Board, to buy another property ter.) The hon. member of the Legislative in Cregneish, but there is a terrific lot to be Council, Mr. Nivison, I heard him the other done in Cregneish today. One thing that I day speaking of his ancestors, how they do hope will happen, and the hon. mem­ had come over in a boat from Scotland, bers for Rushen know I have been striving landed down at Cranstal and moved into to this end for some time along with my Bride and, you know, he is the repository colleagues, and that is to develop a Friends of a lot of knowledge in this respect but of Cregneish organisation because they can he, like the rest of us, will not be available do far more than the Museum body sitting for ever to pass the knowledge on and this up here in Douglas and paying the occa­ afternoon I would ask him to “Come off sional visit. I am sure their influence and the fence, Jack”. Honestly, hon. members, impetus would be of infinite value to that it is no good procrastinating in items like village. Now, the hon. member for Michael this. It is all right saying we can have this stressed the point which again touches on the Museum extension. It is a point he made we can have that and we can have the other, in a letter to the Museum and National all these things are desirable, of course they Trust on his return from a visit to Scandi­ are and no-one is claiming we should have navian countries at little over a year ago the lot, but I am going to reiterate one and he mentioned the need for development straight fact. Your predecessors in this hon. of the trading . side in relation to good Court, hon. members, approved in principle quality works of museum character, if I this programme 12 years ago and we have

Estimates of Manx Museum—Approved. T664 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

been hammering quietly at it ever since, but duties to three main committees as members because we have been rather quiet about it will see set out on page 98 of the Green the Finance Board have taken little or no Book and I can see no point in repeating notice and from now on it is going to be what is printed. However, I would say that a different tune and backed by this Court, the Control of Employment Committee has as we have been this afternoon, Your had a particularly busy year, dealing not Excellency, I am not going to force any only with the thorny question of work per­ division because the Finance Board have got mits but also considering all aspects of the message and I am happy to leave the employment. Minimum wages, as instanced whole situation now in the hands of the by the Chairman of Whitley Council this Court. morning in his statement, have often been The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. mentioned in this hon. Court and my Board members? has been pleased that both the catering trade and the Hairdressers’ Federation, after It was agreed. meetings with the Control of Employment Committee, have agreed to have published at least a basic minimum and a code of ESTIMATES OF BOARD OF SOCIAL practice for their respective industries. I feel SECURITY — APPROVED. that maybe this is the start and we now The Governor: Item number 25. The have something- which maybe can be built Chairman of the Board of Social Security. on, and it is important in my view that we Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to should, over the next few months, monitor move:— the position and, if possible, consolidate the Tha: Tynwald requests the Finance Board initiative so far taken. Now, on page 100 to give consideration in the preparation of members will see in the Revenue Estimates the Budget to ihe Estimates of the Board of the figure of £55,700 for the Employment Social Security as shown in the Book of Exchange, included in which is £12,500 for Estimates for 1979/80. industrial training schemes. This is directly Members: Agreed. attributable to employment and something which the Control of Employment Com­ Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, hon. mem­ mittee pay particular regard to at all times. bers may shout “agreed”, but unfortunately Still dealing with the Revenue Estimates, on I have gone to the trouble to write a little the administration expenses the principal bit so you are going to have to listen to difference in the coming year is an increased it. (Laughter.) At the start of the gospel Post Office charge of £15,000. Otherwise, the according to the Board of Social Security, I administration cost represents 2-4 per cent, would really and quite sincerely, at the start, of the total expenditure of the Board. The so that it does not lodk like an after­ estimated expenses under the national in­ thought tagged on at the end, pay a very surance fund include £i million for unem­ sincere tribute to my Board members, both ployment benefit and £1-3 million for sickness the Tynwald and the unsung heroes, the and invalidity benefits, nearly three times. non-Tynwald members, for their untiring There is £110,000 for maternity benefits, support over this last year in carrying out £26,000 for death grants, for which we are the duties of the Board of Social Security. I hopeful we will have an increased payment, wish also to thank sincerely my Adminis­ £112,000 for industrial injuries, £790,000 trator for his work in a well-run office and for widows’ and guardians’ allowances and al! the staff in Hill Street and in the Employ­ the big one, £12,800,000 for retirement pen­ ment Exchange and, particularly, the staff who look after our elderly in our care and sions. Income is always hard to estimate and attention homes. The Board of Social it has been largely based on forecasting the Security, as members are welj aware, carry income from an earnings-related contribu­ out many statutory -duties operating the tion without the knowledge of the wage national insurance fund and under the rates on the Island and the returns from the National Assistance Act having the respon­ Treasury of the contributions received in sibility for the welfare of the old and the respect of employed earners during the first handicapped people generally. The Board, seven months of the current year indicate a though overall responsible, delegates its monthly average return o f £665,000. Post

Estimates of Board of Social Security—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T665

Office returns of stamp sales show an to ask for your support, firstly for the average income of around £12,000 a month £50,000 to be expended at Southlands for and the return from class 4 contributions the conversion of the four-bedded wards. average £13,000 a month. Allowance has This has long been sought after and would been made for the new rates which, as mem­ be a major improvement to the first custom- bers are aware, come into effect on 6th built home on the Island. And now for our April. The Social Security Act expenses in­ number 1 — the major new scheme for our clude in the Green Book a figure of old people’s home in Ramsey. Last year, £1,420,000 for supplementary benefits. My when seeking Tynwald Court’s approval to Board has minuted that it is desirous of go forward for planning approval for this asking for an additional £1 to be paid to home, I gave an undertaking to the hon. supplementary pensioners over and above Court that if you gave me permission to do the already additional payment given by the planning we would be ready to start Tynwald. You will appreciate the difficulty I within a year — we are. In fact plans have face when I say that no recognition has been drawn, bills of quantities prepared and been taken of this in the Green Book at this tenders have been received and I sought stage as, of course, that will require an financial approval to put a resolution on this alteration to regulations by Tynwald and I Tynwald Agenda but it was felt again that am told that I cannot pre-empt financial it should be held over until Budget time. approval. Anyway, as I say, my Board has Now it would be wrong of me, knowing the minuted the desirability of such an addi­ figures which we will require, to withhold tional payment. We think it is a social need. them from this Court today and so the figure I am aware that Tynwald already does give which is in your book there of £650,000 will assistance over and above United Kingdom require to be re-written at £900,000. I would assistance to supplementary pensioners but reiterate to members the words spoken by we feel we are justified in asking for an the Chairman of the Finance Board a week additional £1. Now, as I say, we cannot ago, that schemes should be “duly effected pre-empf the financial provisions but we within reasonable margins”. We, as a Board, have agreed on my Board that it should be have been prepared to consider getting on asked for and you, hon, members of the with the job and, as I said, were asked to do Court, could if you wish, today, lend sup­ it. I gave the undertaking that we would be port to such a scheme coming forward and ready and we are ready now to lay bricks. you could do this by your comments. Could This home is planned and with your agree­ I say here and now that those who do not ment and Budget approval we will get on speak I take as being in agreement. (Laugh­ and get the job done. The need is there ter.) Child benefit has been increased to take in Ramsey and it has been long shown. Mr. account of the new rates from April and Speaker, in dealing with the Museum Esti­ members will be no doubt interested to mates, said that their extension to the know that on 30th September last we were Museum has been planned for a number of paying 13,469 child benefits and we were years; so, too, has a care and attention home paying retirement pensions to 13,434 pen­ in the north of the Isle of Man. It has been sioners — a difference of 35, quite remark­ discussed in this Court at many Estimates able. Included in the £251,000 for special debates and last year members will be aware schemes for pensioners is £160,000 for the I held meetings with the Health Services £10 Christmas bonus, as a direct result of Board and with the local authorities in Mr. Speaker’s resolution, and £90,000 for the north of the Isle of Man and it was concessionary ’bus travel. It is under the unanimously agreed that it should be pro­ National Assistance Act that we manage our gressed as a need for the people in the old people’s homes and maintenance and north; as a need, an essential need. I can loan charges are the main two major items really do no more today, hon. members, amounting to £715,000 and £125,000 respec­ than to ask for your clear-cut support to tively, Tynwald having accepted over many give the Board of Social Security the oppor­ years that it should bear this expense rather tunity to build this care and attention home than the residents. Now, can I ask hon. which has, as we have said, long been sought members to turn back to page 99 and the by the people of the north of the Isle of Capital Estimates and I would like sincerely Man. Your Excellency, I do not think that

Estimates of Board of Social Security—Approved. T666 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

I have taken too much of the Court’s time Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, there is in presenting the Board of Social Security’s just one question I would like to ask and Estimates and I would just reiterate that the that is under child benefit. I see the amount one major capital expense which we have shown under net expenditure for the coming would be to build an old people’s home, a year is £2,930,200 against £1,894,540, which care and attention unit, and this is impor­ does seem an enormous increase. It is an tant in any area of the Isle of Man and in increase of something over £1 million on any community. It is so much nicer if people that one item. The other point I wanted who have to go into care and attention to make is this. Here we have a total homes when they get elderly in years can net expenditure of about £8 million and stay in their own area and it is that alone it is simply divided into six headings—• which prompts the Board of Social Security £2,548,000, £2,017,000 and so on. Now, apart that there is a definite need in the north of from comparing them with the amount the Isle of Man and it is with the whole­ quoted for a similar item last year, I do not hearted support of the local authorities that feel I am in possession of sufficient facts to we ask you to support the building of the be able to make any useful comment on care and attention home in Ramsey. I beg them anyway at this stage. I am delighted to move, Your Excellency. that he is going to go ahead with the home in Ramsey so, in view of that, I will forgive Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second. him all the rest. (Laughter.) Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, very briefly, Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, there is I certainly support the Estimates of the just one point I would like to refer to. There Board of Social Security and indeed the is a lot of public disquiet, Your Excellency, explanations that have been given by the particularly about the inmates of Mannin. Chairman. Very briefly, in support of the Where are they going to go? Is it being elderly persons’ home, I think I said this phased out? Some of the patients have been last year, but I would remind the Court that transferred but the public would like to there are over 3,000 people in the north know what the Board of Social Security of the Island over the age of 65 years and have in mind for those residents in Mannin I think the Court is aware of the fact that who are still there, Another point which has there may well be perhaps 110 beds in the been brought to my attention, I may be north, at Cronk Ruagh, the Home of Rest, incorrect, but if a person is physically the Grest Home and Park Crest, for people handicapped they can claim a benefit. Now, who may be ill of an age group over and a person who is physically handicapped above 65 years. I would also mention that cannot go down to the Board’s office to the medical opinion that has been passed to collect it themselves so they have to depend me is that perhaps on average one-third of on a relative or a very kind neighbour to go the people who are in Cronk Ruagh would, down and collect it. It is not always possible in fact, be happier if they could be housed to ask a friend or a neighbour to go down in a new home as envisaged by the Board every week and get your benefit. I under­ of Social Security. Therefore, while I stand it can be arranged that it could be realise that the Finance Board have indi­ posted to them but — and this is what I cated that they will have to reduce the £19 want clarification of — is it correct that if million of capital expenditure to £14 million, this arrangement is made no benefit can be I feel absolutely sure that the Court would paid for four weeks? It is all right if the not agree to the removal of this almost people concerned have got enough money £1 million project. to keep themselves for that four weeks but it is often the case that the handicapped Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, very little people live from week to week with the has been said on this very large estimate. I benefit they get. Can some arrangement be am quite sure in my own mind that this hon. made whereby if they ask for their benefit Court has nothing but praise to offer to the to be posted to them they have not got to Chairman of the Board and his colleagues wait those four weeks to receive the benefit for the presentation of a social security because, quite honestly, a lot of them cannot benefit in all aspects of which the Chairman afford to do that. himself, a new Chairman, has explained in

Estimates of Board of Social Security—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T667

detail the things that we have all said in be built, as I am sure it will be, in Ramsey, this Court we desire. This is not one of the those people will be in effect going home things which comes into a category where from Mannin. One query which I have for we have to tie it up with what is desirable the Chairman, I wonder is this the final and what is essential. All of the things in large project of this sort for care and this Board of Social Security Estimate are attention in the Island? As I say, finally, I essential and I am quite certain that the congratulate him for getting on. The north Finance Board have the message on this in of the Island has for very many years been no uncertain terms but I do feel that just left out badly in all projects of this sort because we all agree it would be wrong of whether it has been care and attention, us just to let it slide without congratulating warden type or whatever, and I am very, the Chairman of the Board on his very able very pleased to support him in his Estimates presentation and in pointing out to us the today. things that we really care about. He has pointed out in no uncertain terms what he Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, quickly wants to do under the social security aspect replying to the last hon. member first, as far of the Revenue Estimates and, of course, he as our Board is concerned this does seem has got the full support, I am quite certain to be, if we get the care and attention home in my own mind, of every member of this ¡built in Ramsey, the last or final project. It hon. Court, but possibly this is just one of is wrong to say it will be the last or final the times when we should express an because we do not know what the situation opinion, saying to him that we congratulate will be in 20 to 25 years’ time but for the him on doing an excellent job and I am immediate future, as far as we can see at quite certain the Finance Board will look the present time, our needs would then be very kindly at these Estimates at least. satisfied. In reply to the first hon. member, Mrs. Hanson, what will happen to those M r. Creer: Yes, Your Excellency, I sup­ who are in Mannin at the present time, well, port these Estimates, too, and I do hope that of course, it has been the policy of the the new home goes on before long with Board, again as I told you last year, to phase the one at Ramsey Cottage Hospital. If out Mannin over a period of time and we these two improvements go on in Ramsey, have done just that over this past year. The that is the old people’s home down in numbers have fallen in Mannin now from Ramsey and the alterations at the Cottage over 100 down to about 70. T hat is the Hospital, I think the north of the Island will number which is in Mannin currently. We be looked after well into the next century. will be continuing with that policy but those M r. J. N . Radcliffe: Your Excellency, just who are resident in Mannin at the present briefly, I support the Estimates of the Board time will find other homes around Douglas of Social Security and I congratulate the or, as the hon. member has said, any person Board on all the good work it does. Particu­ who is from the north of the Isle of Man larly I would congratulate the inspectors and we would be inclined to try, as I said in my the staff on their very humane and sym­ opening remarks, to keep people who are pathetic attitude to many of the cases that in need of care and attention first and fore­ they meet and they do indeed help in every most within the area of the Isle of Man to way they can. To turn briefly to the pro­ which they are used. In reply also to your posed care and attention home in Ramsey, physically handicapped question, I welcome after all the years we have been waiting to the question and, of course, if you can tell hear anything concrete about this, I am very us of any person who is in particular diffi­ pleased to hear that all the planning has culty in relation to our monthly send out, been taken care of, the tenders indeed have well then, of course, we would arrange that been finalised and there is no need for me they were paid weekly albeit by post. It can to stress the need for this home in the north, and would be done. Now, in reply to the both medically and socially. Now Mrs. hon. member from Ramsey, Mr. Christian, Hanson did mention briefly the Mannin and similarly on child benefit, you will be aware, where would the people go, and I think it of course, that there has been a move to put would be fair to say that in the Mannin at child benefit on to a higher plane and, in the moment there are some people from the fact, from April child benefit is going from north of the Island and were this home to £3 to £4 per child and, of course, when you

Estimates of Board of Social Security—Approved. T668 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 talk of £1 Increase you immediately go up with the estimated amount last year of some­ a third, from £3 to £4, so the increases we thing in excess of £200,000. Now although do talk about are considerable in the child the Airports Board have a gross expenditure benefit level. I accept entirely your point of £1,089,000, they have an income of regarding the presentation of the Revenue £1,074,000 and the deficiency has now come Esimates. I can see exactly what you mean down to something like £63,000 and within by the presentation just by block votes. I, this next three or four years the Airports of course, have a complete breakdown of Board will be totally supporting itself with­ each individual item. I do not think the out any assistance at all from Government Green Book would like to print all that but funds. This is brought about largely by the I will have a look at it to see if, in fact, fact that they charge realistic rentals for the anything different can be done in the pre­ properties they rent, they charge for various sentation for next year. services that are given and it is run in a The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. completely business-like manner. With re­ members? gard to the Capital Estimates, there is only one item— the other items are comparatively It was agreed. small which are on-going things which you have to keep up to date — and this is an item of £150,000 for a light aviation com­ ESTIMATES OF CIVIL DEFENCE plex. In this respect, Your Excellency, it is COMMISSION — APPROVED. hoped to build a complex abutting the existing building, to go south next to the The Governor: Item number 26. The existing building, and this would be a place Chairman of the Civil Defence Commission. where the light aircraft would all have their Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I beg to offices — the taxi firms, the charter firms and move:— the private person who flies, if he wanted to That Tynwald requests the Finance Board get his flight briefing or if he has to come to give consideration in the preparation of through Customs or any of the regulations, the Budget to the Estimates of the Civil it would be done in this complex. But the Defence Commission as shown in the Book important thing about this is that as soon of Estimates for 1979/80. as it is erected we would immediately have A Member: I beg to second. an income of something in excess of £6,000 The Governor: Is that agreed? and we would hope that eventually this place should also be completely self- It was agreed. supporting, with us charging the taxi and hire people for the use of the premises they have there and, also, we charge for security, ESTIMATES OF AIRPORTS BOARD we charge the police accordingly. So that is — APPROVED. the only capital item and I would urge that The Governor: Item number 27. The the Finance Board should give serious con­ Chairman of the Airports Board. sideration to this because the light aircraft is something that is growing m ore and more. Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I beg to I want to reiterate this, there was a period move:— last summer when some 360 movements Thai Tynwald requests the Finance Board took place down at Ronaldsway and we are to give consideration in the preparation of getting to the stage now when, particularly the Budget to the Estimates of the Isle of Man Airports Board as shown in the Book at busy times, whilst we will use Ronaldsway of Estimates for 1979/80. for all the aircraft which require Customs Your Excellency, I want to speak quite clearance or that are flying to and from the briefly on the Estimates of the Airports United Kingdom, we are hoping to use parts Board. In particular I would like to draw the of Jurby during certain of these busy times, Court’s attention to the fact that they are always subject to the fact that we would possibly the only Board whose deficiency have to get security clearance and, if it war­ has been greatly reduced for the forth­ rants it, sufficient traffic security clearance coming year. The amount you will see that would be an economic proposition. It would they require is just £63,000 as compared not be economical at the moment to put

Estimates of Civil Defence Commission—Approved. — Estimates of Airports Board— Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T669

down a security force for the odd one or be told about these schemes in due course, two aircraft but when the place was being but they have pointed out to me that these used with a number of aircraft it would air taxi firms do come and go. Also, there warrant the existence of some security in is going to be a very heavy increase in fuel that direction. There is one other item I in the future and they feel this possibly will would wish to refer to, Your Excellency. In knock out some of the small aircraft October of last year, in answer to a query presently there. by Mr. Speaker on the number of aircraft that were coming- to and from the Island Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I do not during Millennium Year, I promised that I want to be a Cassandra on this important would give this information to the Court issue of the Capital Estimates of the Air­ and I think you have all had — if you have ports Board, but I think a lot of us are not you should have had — a letter through viewing with apprehension the discussions the Clerk of Tynwald stating all the aircraft which are going on at the moment in movements that are taking place this year Geneva between the oil producing countries and the assurance that we have been given and with the possibility of an aviation from the major operators that if the demand fuel famine, either rationing by price or by is there they will increase the number of decree, I do hope that with the light aviation movements, if it is at all possible. You will complex you will bear in mind that there have seen from that that they are offering might be, in fact, a reduction of light air­ some 468,000 seats, which is an increase of craft circulating in Britain and it is not going 35,000 seats available, an increase on last to be, shall I say, too much for too little. year, so this is quite encouraging. Some of Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I the places have not been served as well as would like to congratulate the hon. Chair­ we would like — Dublin, for example — but man. I am sure it is particularly welcome we are putting pressure upon the company news to us all to learn that in the not-too- concerned to give an increased service from far-distant future, in the foreseeable future, that area. I would say that the services the Airports Board hopes to be self- which are operating in the winter-time now sufficient. I would particuarly say how are infinitely superior to what they have pleased I am to hear his statement as regards been in previous winters and the services Jurby. It demonstrates, if I may say so, the that will be operating next summer with the far-sighted wisdom for which the hon. four companies operating will be a great Chairman is so rightly renowned. In my improvement on what has happened in pre­ opinion the airport at Jurby is an asset that vious years and we are striving to even in­ has too long been allowed to lie rusting crease these numbers of services. We do forlorn and disused. I would suggest that have the assurance from the operators if the this could be a tremendous potential boost business is there they Will meet the require­ to the activities of the Jurby industrial estate ments. I beg to move the Estimates. and I feel, Your Excellency, that it is only right and proper that at Estimates time we A Member: I beg to second. should be actively considering ways and Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I would means of boosting sources of income and compliment the hon. Chairman not only on revenue, paying attention to how we can in­ the running of the airport but on the crease these so very necessary finances, as wonderful atmosphere that exists at the well as spending so much time discussing airport since he has been Chairman of that how to disperse them. organisation, amongst the staff working The Speaker: Your Excellency, I will there. briefly comment on the proposals here. I am Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, the words delighted to compliment the Board on, in fact, have been taken out of my mouth. Might I the London flight which is now in operation. ask the Chairman, as many of my con­ I think this is a marked advance which we stituents work there, how many air taxi have sought for a long time. The Board firms are there and how many private air­ have got it for us, that is fine, Again, the craft? As you know, people are always, how promise of the flight patterns for the coming shall I say it, cpncerned about big expensive season seems very attractive. I hope, too, schemes and I said i am sure they would that the Board will not give up hope of get­

Estimates of Airports Board—Approved. T670 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

ting better, shall I say, charter-type fares in light aircraft, after paying their initial visit operation to the Island. It has been in­ to be cleared if they have come from a teresting through all the long battle, if you Customs area, could eventually go off to like, to establish a better flight pattern to Jurby, this is the kind of thinking that we London and so on. We have had at times, as have. The hon. member for Castletown, far as I could see anyway, British Airways’ Mrs. Quayle, asked about the fuel and opposition and it is surprising to find they somebody else did too, the hon. member are being keel-hauled at the moment for a for Douglas West, Mr. Kermeen. The Board lack of service to the consumer. Well, is it are very conscious of the fact that there surprising, I am not quite sure. However, might be some adjustment in fuel even Your Excellency, the point I really want to because in the United Kingdom they have make is the one made already by the hon. thought of abolishing the road fund tax for member for Michael. I think all members motor -cars and placing the additional tax with a northern association will be ab­ on the fuel. Representations are being made solutely delighted with the new Board’s and it is going on at the moment that light attitude to Jurby, that we are going to have hydrocarbon oils used for aircraft might be this tiny development of light ’planes and, completely relieved of this additional tax frankly, although the hon. member for that is being imposed or may well be im­ Douglas West, Mr. Kermeen, has spoken of posed when the road fund tax is abolished. the possibility of petrol restrictions and so This matter is receiving active consideration on, aviation fuel, I think that the light because we think, like the hon. Mr. Speaker, aircraft field is going to expand and expand that light aircraft are on the increase rapidly and I have no doubt whatever that because we get enquiries almost every day here we are going to follow the pattern of from people who would have an aircraft if evolution in the Channel Islands where light they could get a place to put it in, a hangar aircraft abound and, to me, this thinking on in other words. They do not like leaving this the part of the Airports Board is so realistic expensive machinery out all the time. So we that one can hardly believe it has not have this one under review and we believe existed up to this moment. So I do welcome that it will increase. I did make reference this dual thrust, if you like, by the Airports to the hon. member, Mr. Kermeen, and I Board and the Government Property Trus­ am very conscious of the fact that only tees. I come back again now to the Police today on the news and yesterday there was Board and say, just clear this one for us talk of increasing prices and it may well because it is all hocus pocus at the moment have some effect upon light aviation but we and we will get Jurby operational, at least believe that it may have an overall effect on to the degree of internal flying, and that is all kinds of transport but after the initial the objective at the present time, so I blow of these alterations it is like smoking warmly welcome this proposal and con­ cigarettes, it eventually settles down and gratulate the Board on the type of service there is hardly any change. There are things that they are giving. affecting the smoking of cigarettes other Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, in reply than price. So we do not think that that will to the hon. member for Castletown, Mrs. have a detrimental effect. Regarding the hon. Quayle, with regard to the number of firms member for Jurby, the justice for Jurby which are operating, there are three based man, it is our intention, if possible, to in the Isle of Man but there are other firms develop this with the full consent of the operating from other places that do actually Government Property Trustees, with whom come to the Isle of Man. There are 26 light we have had constant communication on aircraft actually housed with us. The various things of this kind, and they do numbers that we would get at any one time know that it is our wish that nothing should from across, if members were down at be developed that would ultimately prevent Ronaldsway during Tourist Trophy time the runways from being used in the future. they would see in excess of 100 on the No development should take place because ground at one time, a wonderful spectacle it may well be that the number of people to see. This is where we have been thinking coming to the Isle of Man by air may that in the interests of safety and in the increase and we may have to develop still interests of all concerned some of those further, so the Government Property Trus­

Estimates of Airports Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T671

tees are aware of this. We have also had Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, in communication with them recently over the absence of the Chairman of the Aessess- possibly internal flying but because of ment Board I. beg to move:— security reasons, not for any other reason, Tliaj Tynwald requests the Finance Board it was found to ,be difficult. I do say it is to give consideration in the preparation of hoped that we may develop in light aircraft the Budget to the Estimates of the Assess­ and an industrial aircraft rather than in ment Board as shown in the Book of Esti­ passenger aircraft. Industrial aircraft and mates for 1979/80. light aircraft, this is the way we would hope The Estimates are modest and reflect only to improve. I am very grateful to Mr. really inflationary increases, and I beg to Speaker for making reference to the move that they should be passed by this improved services. I am sure this is appre­ hon. Court. ciated ¡by all concerned, the early ’plane to A Member: I beg to second. London in the morning and the late ’plane coming away from London, and I would Mr. P. Radcliffe: lust following that remind the Court too that in addition to comment, Your Excellency, by the Vice- those very excellent services, the direct Chairman of the Assessment Board, I feel service, as supplied by British Airways, that when we are talking about assessments people can travel via Liverpool to London we normally associate them with rating and or via Manchester to London at the same when the Government as such abolishes price as the direct service, so you can go certain rates they have to consider how ai about four or five different times during they are going to replace the revenue from each day in the winter-time to London. It that and naturally we are concerned from is really a remarkable service. Mr. Speaker the point of view of income tax and on that made reference to the charter. Here again line it is the wish of my Board that I should we are growing in a small way with the make a statement at this moment which I Norway service —• the 737’s that come in think is relevant. The Finance Board have from Scandinavia — this service is growing. been concerned to learn of the number of It started with just two or three and now Manx residents who are reducing their tax it is probably getting up to the 10 or 12 liabilities through the use of companies in mark for this summer and we are having other territories, particularly the Channel negotiations with various people hoping that Islands. Income tax in the Isle of Man is a similar exercise may be started from low and the Finance Board consider that other places. As members know, the 737 those who wish to live in the Island must comes in from Scandinavia with a full load be prepared to pay local income tax on their and goes out with a full load and I would income. To ensure that they do so the say that every time that lands it means, Finance Board are proposing to introduce apart from anything else, something in legislation which will contain provisions for excess of £500 in fees and passenger tax preventing the avoidance of Manx income and the like. Thank you for your support tax by transactions resulting in the transfer for the Estimates and I hope that the of income to persons outside the Isle of Finance Board will bear in mind that the Man. It is intended that such provisions object of the light aviation complex is to will be effective from the 1st day of April provide for these light aircraft. We do not 1979. Now, the reason for my desire to envisage it will go down, we envisage it will make that statement today is that when it go up, and we think that that too, even­ is mentioned later on nobody will be able tually, will be self-supporting. to, I would hope anyway, accuse us of The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. making any form of retrospective legisla­ members? tion. They have been forewarned that this legislation will be coming and I think, Your It was agreed. Excellency, as I have said already, we must be prepared to bring in revenue when we are abolishing other sources of revenue. I ESTIMATES OF ASSESSMENT BOARD would like to emphasise this point. — APPROVED. The Governor: Is that agreed? The Governor: Item number 28. It was agreed.

Estimates of Assessment Board—Approved. T672 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

ESTIMATES OF GAMING BOARD ARBORY SCHOOL — OF CONTROL — APPROVED. SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE — APPROVED. The Governor: Item number 29. The Chairman of the Gaming Board of Control. The Governor: Item num ber 31. The Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg Chairman of the Board of Education. to move:— Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to That Tynwald requests the Finance Board move:— to give consideration in the preparation of WHEREAS by resolution of 17th June the Budget to the Estimates of the Gaming 1975 Tynwald approved of a scheme for Board of Control as shown in the Book of extensions to Arbory Primary School at a Estimates for 1979/80. total cost not exceeding £201,000. A Member: I beg to second. AND WHEREAS on completion of the The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. extensions the final cost was £237,570, members? increased ¡costs being primarily due to additional fire precautions, problems en­ It was agreed. countered on existing buildings and the creation of an area for football and sports, together with increased labour and material costs. ANDREAS SCHOOL — NOW THERFORE TYNWALD —- SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE (1) Approves of the above scheme costing — APPROVED. £237,570. (2) Authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of The Governor: Item number 30. The Man to apply out of Capital Trans­ Chairman of the Board of Education. actions Account during the year ending 31 sc March 1979 a sum not exceeding Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to £1,100 to meet the balance of expendi­ move:— ture in excess of votes received. WHEREAS Tynwald approved on 17th (3) Approves of and sanctions borrowings June 1975 a scheme of extensions to not exceeding £1,100 being made by the Andreas School at a cost not exceeding Government under the provisions of £204,500. the Isle of Man Loans A ct 1974 such AND WHEREAS the actual cost of the borrowings to be repaid within a period scheme is now known to be £252,000, the of thirty years. increase being mainly caused by additional The Lord Bishop: I beg to second. labour and material costs, additional fire safety requirements and additional work Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, on one of required in the existing building which these three items I would like to ask are could not be foreseen. the lavatories under cover within the school NOW THEREFORE TYNWALD — because despite anything that Mr. Craine (1) Approves of the above scheme costing says my constituents feel very strongly about £252,000. this. (2) Authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of Mr. Craine: There were never any lava­ Man to apply out of Capital Transac­ tories inside any school I ever went to. tions Account during the year ending 31st March 1979 a sum not exceeding Mrs. Quayle: I would not like to go into £432 to meet the balance of expenditure the difference between the physiology of in excess of the votes received. men and women but I consider that with the (3) Approves of and sanctions borrowings kind of winter that has just gone past it not exceeding £432 being made by the would be wrong to expect small girls, Government under the provisions of particularly, to come out of their warm the Isle of Man Loansr Act 1974 such classrooms. I am sure you are aware of the borrowings to be repaid over a period problem. I feel that great emphasis should of thirty years. be put by you and your Board on getting The Lord Bishop: I beg to second. these toilets under cover. The Governor: Is that agreed? Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, on a It was agreed. point of explanation, may I ask the hon.

Estimates of Gaming Board of Control—Approved. — Andreas School—Supplementary Vote—Approved. — Arbory School—Supplementary Vote—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 T673

member, when she says under cover does actions Account during the year ending she mean there should be a roof on or does 31st March 1979 a sum not exceeding she mean they should be in the same . . . £850 to meet the balance of expenditure (Laughter.) in excess of the votes received. (3) Approves of and sanctions borrowings Mr. Quirk: May I ask, Your Excellency, not exceeding £850 being made by the in view of the suggestion that a community Government under the provisions of the centre -.should be incorporated into the Isle of Man Loans Act 1974 such bor­ schools nowadays, has this been incorpora­ rowings to be repaid within a period of ted in any of these previous schools? thirty years. Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, may I The Lord Bishop: I beg to second. reply to the two questions. In reply to the The Governor: Is that agreed? hon. lady member from Castletown, it is It was agreed. true, that we have nine schools, I think if my memory is correct, in the Island with outside toilets where they have LICENSING ORDERS (No. 2), (No. 3), to walk across the yard. We have one (No. 4), (No. 5), (No. 6), (No. 7), (No. 8), up here just a few yards from these (No. 9), (No. 10), (No. 11) 1979; buildings, one of the larger schools, where MUSIC AND DANCING ORDER 1979 they have to walk right across the play­ — APPROVED. ground to the toilets. We have two schools The Governor: Item number 33. The which have some outside toilets and some Chairman of Executive Council. we have managed to incorporate inside. These toilets will be inside. As for the com­ Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to munity centre, Andreas has got facilities for move:— that but Arbory, as far as I am aware, has That the following Orders made by His not. Pulrose, not as far as I am aware, not Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor on the in the full sense. 2nd March 1979 be and the same is hereby approved:— The Governor: Is that agreed? (a) The Licensing (No. 2) Order 1979; It was agreed. (b) The Licensing (No. 3) Order 1979; (c) The Licensing (No. 4) Order 1979; (d) The Licensing (No. 5) Order 1979; PULROSE JUNIOR SCHOOL — (e) The Licensing (No.. 6) Order 1979; (f) The Licensing (No. 7) Order 1979; SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE (g) The Licensing (No. 8) Order 1979; — APPROVED. (h) The Licensing No. 9) Order 1979; The Governor: Item num ber 32. The (i) The Licensing (No. 10) Order 1979; Chairman of the Board of Education. (j) The Licensing (No. 11) Order 1979; (k) The Music and Dancing Order 1979. Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— A Member: I beg to second. WHEREAS Tynwald approved on 20 th The Governor: Is that agreed? October 1971, 15th February 1972 and 21st It was agreed. November 1972 schemes for the site pur­ chase, drainage and erection and equipment of a new Junior School at Pulrose at a cost SOUTHERN LOCAL AUTHORITIES not exceeding £154,890. SWIMMING POOL (AMENDMENT) AND WHEREAS the actual cost of the ORDER 1979 — APPROVED. schemes is now known to be £164,270, the increase being mainly caused by additional The Governor: Item number 34. The labour and material costs, and the formation Chairman of the Local Government Board. o f a new play area. Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to NOW THEREFORE TYNWALD— move:— (1) Approves of the above scheme costing That the Southern Local Authorities £164,270. Swimming Pool (Amendment) Order 1979 (2) Authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of made by the Isle of Man Local Government Man to apply out of Capital Trans­ Board under the provisions of the Local

Pulrose Junior School—Supplementary Vote—Approved. — Licensing Orders (No. 2), (No. 3), (No. 4), (No. 5), (No. 6), (No. 7), (No. 8), (No. 9), (No. 10), (No. 11) 1979; Music and Dancing Order 1979—Approved. — Southern Local Authorities Swimming Pool (Amendment) Order 1979—Approved. T674 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

Government Acts 1916 to 1976 be and the That the Sale of Ice Cream Regulations same is hereby approved. 1979 made by the Isle o f Man Local Mr. Moore: I beg to second. Government Board on 2nd March 1979 under the provisions of the Sale of Ice The Governor: Is that agreed? Cream A ct 1939 and the Food and Drugs It was agreed. A ct 1963 be and the same are hereby approved. Mr. Moore: I beg to second. ANDREAS PARISH BURIAL The Governor: Is that agreed? GROUND RATE ORDER 1979 It was agreed. — APPROVED. The Governor: Item number 35. The Chairman of the Local Government Board. CLASSIFICATION OF ROADS, Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to PORT ERIN — APPROVED. move:— The Governor: Item num ber 38. The That the Andreas Parish Burial Ground Chairman of the Local Government Board. Rate Order 1979 made by the Isle of Man Local Government Board on 16th February Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to 1979 under section 5(2) of the Burials A ct move:— 1949, as amended by section 1 o f the Burials That Tynwald approves the addition of A ct 1962, be and the same is hereby the following roads to the Schedule of approved. Classified Roads in the Village District of Mr. Moore: I beg to second. Port Erin—- The Governor: Is that agreed? Bay View Road 595 metres Class I Lhag Mooar 118 metres Class II It was agreed. Lhag Beg 98 metres Class III Layby—Station Road 121 metres Class III Pedestrian Links— MAUGHOLD PARISH BURIAL Lhag Mooar to Close Famman, GROUND RATE ORDER 1979 Lhag Beg to Close Famman, — APPROVED. Close Famman to Close Corneil The Governor: Item number 36. The and Layby fronting Station Chairman of the Local Government Board. Road Class III Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to Mr. Moore: I beg to second. move:— The Governor: Is that agreed? That the Maughold Parish Burial Ground It was agreed. Rate Order 1979 made by the Isle of Man Local Government Board on 16th February 1979 under section 5(2) of the Burials Act 1949, as amended by section 1 o f the Burials ROAD RACES ACT 1951 — Act 1962, be and the same is hereby CLOSURE OF ROADS BY ORDER approved. — APPROVED. Mr. Moore: I beg to second. The Governor: Item number 39. The The Governor: Is that agreed? Chairman of the Highway Board. It was agreed. Mr. J. N . Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— Thai the powers conferred upon the Isle SALE OF ICE CREAM REGULATIONS of Man Highway and Transport Board 1979 — APPROVED. under the provisions of the Road Races Act 1951 to declare by Order that any roads The Governor: Item number 37. The may be used for races, shall be exercisable Chairman of the Local Government Board. by the Board for a period of one year com­ Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to mencing from 1st April 1979. move:— Mr. Ward: I beg to second.

Andreas Parish Burial Ground Rate Order 1979—Approved.— Maughold Parish Burial Ground R ate Order 1979—Approved. — Sale of Ice Cream Regulations 1979—Approved. — Classification of Roads, Port Erin—Approved.— Road Races Act 1951—Closure of Roads by Order—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T675

The Governor: Is that agreed? Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I beg to It was agreed. move:— That Tynwald, pursuant to section 4 of the Isle of Man Post Office Authority MANX MUSEUM EXTENSION — (Postal Services, et cetera) Act 1973, ADJOURNED FOR ONE MONTH. approves the acquisition by the Isle of Man The Governor: Item number 40. The hon. Post Office Authority, by compulsory pur­ Mr. Speaker. chase, of' the land-and buildings numbered 14 Circular Road in the Borough of Doug­ The Speaker: Your Excellency, item 40 is las, which is required by the Authority as the resolution standing in my name and part of its proposed new Post Office Head­ reads as folows:— quarters, the land and buildings being the property of Kular Holdings Limited whose WHEREAS the celebration of the Millen­ Registered Office is situate at 14 Circular nium of Tynwald in 1979 reflects the rich Road, Douglas. history and culture of the Isle of Man and as such is warmly welcomed. During Question Time in Tynwald last It is therefore a matter for regret that at month I explained in full the need for the this time it is becoming increasingly difficult Post Office Authority to find new premises, for the Manx Museum and National Trust which briefly are that only part of our to carry out responsibilities entrusted to it present premises are owned by the Post to maintain a record of the Island’s cultural Office and we are renting the other part and historical development because of lack which was previously occupied by the Board of space and facilities. of Education. Because of expanding business BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED:— these premises are now too small for our That Tynwald, being of the opinion that needs and beside this the owners of the there is now an urgent need to develop the rented section have given us notice that they Manx Museum and National Trust along would like part or all of it back for their the lines approved by Tynwald over the past 12 years, supports in principle— own use. Again, the site in Regent Street is a very difficult one because of lack of (1) the Manx Museum and National parking facilities and the amount of heavy Trust’s proposal to construct a major extension on the Kingswood Grove site; and traffic which moves back and forward to Heron and Brearley’s bottling works in (2) the Manx Museum and National Drumgold Street creates many additional Trust’s objective of placing detailed plans for this project before Tynwald before the problems. As a result, we have been con­ end of 1979. tinually on the look-out for new premises or a site for new premises in which we (Notice of motion given in terms of Standing Order 70 on the 21st February could house all our activities under one 1979.) roof. Having failed to find such premises, we have been looking for a site which is Your Excellency, with the Court’s permis­ reasonably close to the present sorting office sion I would ask to defer this for a month in Circular Road, which could house the to enable the rest of the Agenda to be Philatelic Bureau, the administration section cleared today. and the accounts department, leaving only The Governor: Is that agreed? a counter service down town. In April last year we examined the old Water Works It was agreed. Board offices in Circular Road and although The Governor: Hon. members, we will they were insufficient on their own, the site, proceed with item number 41 after tea, as 'including the two houses and builder’s store I understand counsel will be appearing. and offices adjacent, provided an area suit­ The Court adjourned for tea. able for our purposes, that is numbers 10, 12, 14, 16 and 18 Circular Road. I explained last month the steps we have taken to COMPULSORY PURCHASE OF establish that all the owners were willing 14 CIRCULAR ROAD, DOUGLAS sellers, even though one had certain — APPROVED. reservations; that was the owner of number The Governor: Item number 41, I call on 12, which were the only premises being the Chairman of the Post Office Authority. used at that time. We have obtained

Manx Museum Extension—Adjourned for One Month. — Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. T676 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 possession of numbers 10, 16 and 18 and the Post Office Authority unless we could long drawn-out negotiations have been going reach agreement with the owners of the on with the owners of numbers 12 and 14 other properties on the site, and as it had for several months now. There is a big remained unsold for so long, we did not difference between the situations regarding realise that there was any urgency to buy, number 12 and number 14 and that is why but all of a sudden we were told the I am only applying for compulsory purchase property, number 14, had .been sold to a of number 14. So, in the main, my remarks holding company which was represented by will be concentrated on that property. When Mr. Barry Hughes. Now, I want hon. wo first showed an interest in this site in members to take very careful note of the early April last year, the four members of dates that I mention so that they can judge the A uthority and officials visited and for themselves what has been going on over inspected numbers 16 and 18 and then paced this property. In a letter dated 5th Septem­ out the length of the frontage of numbers ber 1978, Mr. Hughes said he would discuss 12 to 18 inclusive. No doubt we were seen the matter with his clients, “but having carrying out this exercise. At the beginning only just purchased the property they may of June 1978 we had a survey carried out be a little reluctant to sell.” On 8th Sep­ to estimate the ground area of the site. At tember Chrystal Bros., Stott and Kerruish that time number 14 was owned by a informed us they had received word that company of which Mervyn Mohammed they would reconsider if they received a Hashim was a director. This property has substantial offer. Chrystal Bros, also in­ been in a dilapidated and dangerous con­ formed us they had received a telephone dition for many years, so much so that in call from the owner of number 12 Circular 1975, after an inspection by a firm of Road saying he would be willing to sell consulting engineers, it had to be propped provided he was able to find suitable alter­ up using 12-inch square timber and it native accommodation. The owners of is still propped up for everyone to see. The number 10 also indicated a willingness to engineer’s report described the property as sell. Now Chrystal Bros, also notified us being in a dangerous condition, with a bulge that the owners of numbers 12 and 14 knew in the centre of the front wall of eight that the Post Office were interested. Having inches which tapered off to the roof and received an indication from the owners of ground level. They also commented that the all properties that they were willing to sell, party walls did not appear to be effectively the Authority asked Chrystal Bros, to try tied into the front wall and any internal to negotiate a fair price. By 12th October division walls are non-structural and do 1978 the supposed owner of number 14, nothing to stiffen the structure. The con­ who had been identified as Mr. Charles sulting engineer’s report finished off with Kenn of Peel, had informed Chrystal Bros, these words, “Our conclusion on examining verbally that he would require a minimum number 14 is that the property is in a of £10,000 subject to contract. We asked the dangerous condition and cannot be left Government valuer to do an assessment on without carrying out immediate works of the property and he gave a valuation of shoring the structure to avoid the very real £4,000. We understood that the bank’s risk of damage or injury to the general asking price for number 14 Circular Road public in the public highway, or to the was around £5,000. Now, on 14th December possibility of progressive collapse having an Chrystal Bros, notified us that the owner effect on adjacent property.” Now this O:' number 12 had written to withdraw his adjacent property includes number 16 offer to sell and the owner of number 14 Circular Road, which is now owned by the had verbally turned down the offer made to Post Office, and has been in Government him, although it was substantially higher hands for many years now. I understand than the price we had been informed he had that Mr. Charles Kenn of Island Holdings so recently paid for it. As we had reached Limited carried out the work of shoring the agreement with the owners of the property premises so he knew of its existence even on each side of numbers 12 and 14 we had then. We were informed on 19th June 1978 gone too far to abandon this site and we that number 14 could be obtained for were advised that we could use compulsory practically nothing, but as it was no use to purchase if necessary. Before progressing

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T677 with this we wrote, on 21st December, to 30th November. The price paid was only the two owners and warned them that we £3,500 and I claim that fixes the value of would have to consider this if they were this property-for that was all that could be not prepared to negotiate on realistic figures. obtained for it although it had been put on Mr. Charles Kenn, the owner of number 14, the market some considerable time pre­ asked for a meeting with us and the direc­ viously This was £500 less than the valua­ tor, and I met him on 28th December. We tion of £4,000 made by the Government made it quite clear to him that it appeared valuer. An application for bye-law approval to us that he had bought the property in was made by Kular Holdings in 6th Novem­ the knowledge that the Post Office were ber 1978 and granted on 22nd November. interested in it. Although he denied this Planning approval was sought from the Local some things he told us strengthened my Government Board and was subsequently belief that this was the case. He said he granted under I.D.48001 on 5th January, was proposing to convert it into office 1979. Members will note that all these dates accommodation and had already entered are well after the date on which we were ir.lo two letting agreements for this property dealing with the supposed agent of the and we would also have to buy the people supposed holding company who supposedly concerned out. He declined to say who they owned the property concerned. Because of were. He also said he was not in a position this we started the machinery to try and to negotiate the sale with us as he was only obtain the compulsory purchase order for a shareholder in the holding company and number 14 Circular Road, which we have would have to discuss it with the other brought to Tynwald today. Now, referring shareholders. It also became clear that there to the Memorial. This Memorial has not had been discussions between himself and been presented, sir. I was going to make the owner of number 12. He further told some remarks on it. I do not know what us he had bought the premises on the sug­ the situation is now, but I would have hoped gestion of his advocate, Mr. John Crellin. that the advocate for the Memorialist would Now, I was not convinced by the explana­ have been here so that we could have all tions given by Mr. Kenn and, immediately collectively asked her questions. Now, as after our meeting, I contacted the Registry she has arrived late, I would want to know Office to check when the holding company what the situation is, sir. was registered and when the actual pur­ The Governor: I have accepted the chase of number 14 had taken place. I was Memorial for presentation and if the Court surprised to learn that Kular Holdings agrees the Memorial may be presented. Limited was only registered on 29th Sep­ It was agreed. tem ber 1978, that was about a month laJter than we had been dealing with Mr. Barry Mr. Kneale: Is it now before us, sir? Can Hughes, who was supposed to be acting as the advocate speak? an agent of a holding company which had The Governor: Well, it should be pre­ recently purchased it. Remember the pre­ sented. I will call on learned counsel to vious date I mentioned, 5th September. The present it at the appropriate time, but the nominal capital of the company was £2,000 motion first needs to be seconded. in £1 shares and the only subscribers were Mr. Kneale: There are certain remarks I Charles Henry Wien Kenn and Susan have got to make. McNeil, described as a secretary, of 15 Athol Street, and they had one share each. The Governor: You may cross-examine, The directors of the company at that time you may ask questions. There must be a were Charles Kenn and his wife and the motion before the Court. registered office of the company is 14 Mr. Kneale: Referring to the Memorial Circular Road, Douglas. That is the pro­ which has been presented to Tynwald by perty, the propped-up, unoccupied, delapi­ Kular Holdings Limited, members will note dated building in Circular Road. The deed that the registered office is given as 14 of sale of 14 Circular Road from. City Circular Road. That is the propped-up, Centre Properties Limited to Kular Holdings unoccupied, delapidated building which is Limited was dated 13th November 1978 and the object of my resolution today. Under was registered at the General Registry on the Acts of Tynwald dealing with the

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. T678 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

acquisition of land, the Post Office compulsory purchase. Another three months Authority were obliged to serve notice to has passed since then, making a total of all persons interested in the property by seven months since the Authority made its registered letter to the last known address first approaches and that should be ample of such persons. The only address given of time for anyone to get a competent valuer Kular Holdings was 14 Circular Road and to put a value on this property, for on the as delivery could not be made there by the 8th September they had indicated a willing­ postman, the registered letter was re­ ness to sell if the price was right. It is true addressed care of Mr. Charles Kenn in Peel that the Government valuer had not inspec­ and two separate registered letters were also ted the interior of the premises before sent to Mr. Charles Kenn at his private and making his valuation of £4,000, but it must office addresses in Peel. Paragraph 4 of the be remembered that the Authority had Memorial reads as follows: “Your Memo­ engaged Chrystal Bros, to act on their rialist claims that its interests as distinct behalf since August and they had also valued from the interests of the general public are the property and had advised us that the adversely affected because it is the owner very top figure we should offer was £6,000 of the premises as set out in paragraph 2 and that was the figure we had offered above and the Authority has applied to this Kular Holdings for this property. A member hon. Court to acquire the premises by com­ of Chrystal Bros, staff who was dealing pulsion without first having taken all with this matter had previous knowledge of reasonable steps to acquire the same by these premises, having carried out an negotiation and, more particularly, (1) that examination both internally and externally the application to this hon. Court was made when Mr. Hashim was the owner, so their before your Memorialist had had time to valuation was based on a full knowledge of have the premises valued by a competent the premises. It has only deteriorated since valuer to enable it to negotiate with the then. Recently the Government valuer Authority.” Now I ask you to take note of carried out an internal inspection of the that and remember that we were negotiating premises accompanied by Mr. Kenn and on with these people from 31st August on­ 15th March he reported to us that in his wards and they had not the time to get a opinion at the present period of time on competent valuer to enable it to negotiate the open market in its present condition, with the Authority, that is the claim in the and with the valid planning consent, the Memorial. “(2) that the Authority had not value would be in the region of £6,000. Now inspected the interior of the premises nor this confirms Chrystal Bros, valuation. made any approaoh to your Memorialist for Reporting on the condition of the premises, such an inspection, nor considered the he said they were in a state of crude planning application of your Memorialist, delapidation and approaching the end of nor the cost of works comprised in carrying their useful life. They were open to the out the work comprised in such planning weather and deteriorating every day. To try application prior to making this present and reach agreement before this resolution application to this hon. Court.” Now, I do came to Tynwald, the Authority increased not know what Mr. Charles Kenn considers their offer to £6,500 but that is the highest to be all reasonable steps but the Authority we are prepared to go in light of the have been negotiating for this property since competent professional advice we have August last year, that is seven months, and received. I do not think anyone could it was obvious in December that the negotia­ accuse the Authority of having been un­ tions were being dragged out while lettings reasonable over this matter. We have were supposedly being made and planning given ample time to allow the owners to approvals obtained; all with the object of come to a decision. It would appear that trying to put up the value of the property Kular Holdings Limited’s idea of negotiation without spending anything on it. Even then is to endeavour to push up the selling price the Authority did not go directly for com­ beyond a fair figure, against the public pulsory purchase but sent a letter on 21st interest. Now it must not be forgotten that December 1978 warning the owner that if the deed of sale between City Centre he was not prepared to negotiate on realistic Properties Limited and Kular Holdings figures we would be obliged to go for Limited was only signed on 13th November

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 T679

1978 and registered on 30th November 1978 delapidation, approaching the end of its and that Kular Holdings Limited was useful life. I ask members to support this registered on 29th September 1978. I am. resolution today. given to understand that Mr. Charles Kenn Dr. Moore: I beg to second, Your Excel­ was consulted by T. W. Cain and Company lency, and reserve my remarks. on behalf of their client Tarleton Hodgson in his capacity as a builder and demolition The Governor: Is it with the agreeement expert regarding the condition of number of the Court that the Memorialist should be 14 Circular Road; that, I understood, was heard? in mid-summer. Maybe he had heard that It was agreed. the Post Office Authority were interested. Mrs. C. Faulds (Advocate) appeared for Was he an opportunist— did he buy it to the Memorialists. try to make a quick buck out of the Post Office Authority? I believe this to be the Mrs. Faulds: Your Excellency, I wonder if you could indicate whether you would case and the way he has rushed along getting wish me to read the Memorial or whether planning approvals, making • lettings, et you consider it as being adequately before cetera, would seem to support this view. It the Court already? should be obvious to anyone examining this property that it cannot be reconstructed The Governor: Does the Court wish that on its own, that the properties on each side it should be taken as read? will be affected. This site can only be It was agreed. adequately developed as one unit. The Water Board who previously occupied Mrs. Faulds: Thank you, sir. This numbers 16 and 18 Circular Road had taken Memorial on behalf of Kular Holdings out an injunction to prevent the owners of Limited, which is a company registered in number 14 demolishing and re-building the the Manx Company Registry, and having its front of their property, without first con­ registered office at 14 Circular Road, is sulting with the Water Board about methods primarily made on behalf of the directors to be used, for there is nothing more sure of the company who, as you have already that as soon as the props are removed from heard, are Mr. Charles Kenn and his wife, number 14 damage will be caused to the Olive Kenn. Mr. Kenn has taken prime adjoining properties. The present owners of responsibility for the management of this number 14 must have been aware of that company and it is for this reason that you injunction when they bought the property have heard his name mentioned on several and must have been fully aware that the occasions, he being the person who is, there­ Post Office Authority would apply for a fore, on the outside taking charge of the renewal of that injunction as soon as their business done by the company. Mr. Kenn purchase of numbers 16 and 18 was com­ is also a director of Island Holdings Limited, pleted and this is what ave have done. This another Manx company, which has toeeri in property, number 14 Circular Road, has business as a demolition contractor for been an eyesore and a potential danger in several years, and has undertaken numerous this area for several years. The scheme of large demolition contracts in the Isle of the Isle of Man Post Office Authority is Man, including contracts on Government the only worthwhile scheme to have come property. Mr. Kenn has, therefore, acquired forward during this time. It will certainly considerable expertise in demolition and it enhance the neighbourhood and remove one is in his capacity as director of Island of the black spots which give Douglas the Holdings, as an expert in demolition, that in appearance of being a run-down town. I the early part of 1978 he was called upon am confident that the amount we have to give advice regarding number 14 Circular offered for these premises is a very Road by the owner of an adjoining building generous one. It is in excess of the top in Circular Road which was suffering as a valuation put on the property by two quali­ result of the state of number 14 Circular fied competent valuers, one of whom has Road. It had been suggested to the adjoining told us that in his opinion the property is neighbour that he should consider pur­ only fit for demolition and the other has chasing 14 Circular Road, but after con­ described it as being in a state of crude sidering the work required to put it into

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. T680 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

good repair, and the cost involved, he sent to the Post Office Authority on his decided not to purchase the property. It was behalf setting out the results of the findings then suggested to Mr. Kenn that he or his of his valuer, that is, that the premises were company should consider buying the pro­ worth £10,000 and Mr. Kenn, therefore, perty but, as a demolition contractor, he was prepared to sell at this price providing was not interested. However, after some the legal valuation costs were met by the time had passed, further representations Post Office Authority, an offer which he were made to him and he realised that the considered to foe reasonable, he, relying at property, despite its present condition, was that stage, on his professional advice. A capable of renovation and so, through his reply to this letter was received on 12th company, Kular Holdings Limited, the February from the Post Office Authority property was purchased in November 1978, stating that its offer had been based on the the company thereby taking on a not estimate of a qualified valuer and claiming inconsiderable responsibility because of the that Mr. Kenn’s price was not a reasonable condition of the property. Contracts were figure. I would stress at this stage, his price exchanged on 21st September 1978 and the had been that recommended by Messrs Alan sale was financially completed and possession Cowley and Company. It should also be technically handed to Mr. Kenn’s company stressed that Mr. Kenn’s price of £10,000 on 12th November 1978. Mr. Kenn then was exactly the valuation made by Messrs. sought approval from the planning authori­ Alan Cowley and Company- There had not ties to carry out the necessary structural been any attempt to inflate it or to take work to put the property into good repair advantage of the Post Office Authority’s and make it useful. The planning authorities wish to acquire the property. Mr. Patrick approved the use of the building as offices Cowley, on behalf of Alan Cowley and and Kular Holdings intended to complete Company had, however, made a full inspec­ the work in accordance with the planning tion of the property and had inspected the permission given to it and to let the office planning permissions obtained for the pro­ accommodation, Mr. Kenn, of course, perty. So far as M r. K enn is aware, no having the expertise to carry out the inspection of the property had been made necessary work on the 'building. As we have by the valuer acting for the Post Office already heard, planning approval was Authority. This was pointed out to the Post granted by the Local Government Board on Office Authority by letter dated 19th 5th January 1979. In the first week of February and facilities for inspection and December 1978, Mr. Kenn received a letter full disclosure of the basis of the valuation from Messrs. Chrystal Bros., Stott and given to Mr. Kenn was offered to the Kerruish, dated 5th December 1978, offering Authority’s valuer, and this offer was this £6,000 for the property. Mr. Kenn accepted by letter dated 23rd February from declined the offer and later in December the Authority. Despite these negotiations received a letter from the Post Office and the obvious intention of the Authority Authority informing him that the Authority to have the property inspected by its valuer, considered the offer to be most generous. the application for compulsory purchase was No inspection had been made of the pro­ made. Even as recently as 19th March, that perty by the Authority, nor was there any is a week last Monday, the Authority’s indication that the offer was based on a valuer had a meeting with Mr. Patrick professional valuation of the premises. By Cowley of Alan Cowley and Company to letter dated 31st January 1979, Mr. Kenn discuss the valuation. The difference in was given notice that the Post Office opinion as to the value appears to be purely Authority intended to apply to Tynwald for the estimate of the cost of replacing the leave to acquire the land and buildings at front wall of the property. Mr. Kenn’s 14 Circular Road and so M r. -Kenn took estimate is lower than that of the legal action as soon as he could and Authority’s valuer, but this may well be arranged for a proper valuation of the because Mr. Kenn, being a specialist con­ premises to be made on his behalf by tractor, can do the work more cheaply and Messrs Alan Cowley and Company. A letter being a specialist contractor it is submitted dated 7th February, that is some seven that he is in a position to give a proper days after he had received the notice, was estimate of the cost. It is for these reasons

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T681

that this Memorial is before this hon. Court. Circular Road, as negotiations are incom­ The interest of Kular Holdings Limited as plete, it is too early to say that private owner of 14 Circular Road is different from purchase is impossible, and it would not be that of an ordinary member of the public, true to say that the Authority has no and the negotiations with the Post Office option but to apply for compulsory pur­ Authority have not been concluded and yet chase. Kular Holdings Limited would the application for compulsory purchase is respectfully ask this hon Court to direct that before this hon. Court today. Had the the negotiations be completed before further negotiations been concluded, it is submitted consideration is given to the application of that the meeting on 19th March between the -the Authority to compulsorily purchase two valuers would not have taken place. It num ber 14 Circular Road. Thank you, sir. was further stated on March 26th that the Post Office Authority valuer would not Mr. Anderson: Could I ask how much continue discussions with Mr. Patrick Mr. Kenn paid for the property when he Cowley of Alan Cowley and Company but purchased it? Would it not be true to say would leave the matter to Tynwald, making that his situation is rather different from a further indication that the Post Office someone who is carrying on a business there at the moment? Authority was not prepared to continue normal negotiations. It is also submitted that Mrs. Faulds: Your Excellency, I under­ compulsory acquisition is a power to be stand that the price paid by Mr. Kenn for used by a public authority or statutory this property was £3,500. I would addi­ body when private or ordinary purchase is tionally comment that on taking on this not possible and should not be used to the property, as I feel this hon. Court would detriment of the owner of the property be fully aware, the company would be which it is sought to acquire. It is further taking on a considerable responsibility in submitted that the premature use of powers view of the state of this building, and this of compulsory purchase could set a pre­ is very much reflected in the property. If I cedent which, if abused, would be detrimen­ may also take this point further, the value tal to the interests of the general public. of the property has been increased since that Kular Holdings Limited have had discussions time by the granting of the planning ap­ with the owner of number 12 Circular Road, provals, and though the condition of this William Tarieton Hodgson, and has been property cannot be held comparable to the told by Mr. Tarieton Hodgson that the property of number 12, the Memorialist Post Office Authority also wishes to acquire feels that he is entitled to be treated in the number 12 Circular Road. Mr. Tarieton same way as the owner of number 12. Hodgson has told Mr. Kenn that he does not wish to sell out but, if he must, he, like any Mr. Moore: Could I ask learned counsel, other reasonable person, wants the market what we are talking about here really is a value for his property and must foe able to property which is worth no more because obtain accommodation for his office and it is a property which has to be demolished, insurance business with the proceeds of the there is no question in anybody’s mind sale of 12 Circular Road. It therefore seems about that, I do not think even in the mind of the Memorialist. Are we talking about most strange to Mr. Kenn that no applica­ £4,000 for the site value and £6,000 is the tion is before this hon. Court for the com­ value that the valuer has put on the planning pulsory purchase of Mr. Tarieton Hodgson’s approval that he has received? property, and negotiations are still going on between the Authority and Mr. Tarieton Mrs. Faulds: Your Excellency, the basis Hodgson. Mr. Kenn would not then be on which the valuation has been prepared unreasonable in feeling that there is perhaps by Messrs. Alan Cowley and Company indi­ some peculiarity in the treatment which is cates the site value alone, without the being given to him and his company and to building, to be in the region of £7,000, and Mr. Tarieton Hodgson. It is submitted that I understand that the difficulty which has ii would also not be unreasonable for him arisen between the two valuers as to the to feel that there is a possibility that pre­ discrepancy in value is purely an indication ferential treatment is being given to Mr. of the estimated cost of putting this property Tarieton Hodgson. In the case of 14 in good order, which I referred to as having

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. T682 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 been estimated by Mr. Kenn at one price Mrs. Faulds: Your Excellency, I have no and by the Government valuer at a greater specific knowledge on this matter. price, the discrepancy being something in Mr. Kneale: Well, I can tell you it is. the region of £3,000. Mrs. Faulds: I can only state that the Mr. Moore: Are you then saying that planning consent which was obtained by there is no value being put on this property Kular Holdings was obtained with the in­ by the valuer because the Memorialist now tention of carrying out the work, and Kular has a planning approval on the site? About Holdings was in a position to carry out that £7,000 was mentioned and you are talking work. I am informed that the company in terms of £10,000. I feel that a case has which has been referred to as Mr. Hashim’s been made out here really by the fact that company — City Centre Properties I believe some valuer has put a value on this site is the name of the company -— was for based on the fact that he has got a planning some considerable time in financial and approval. embarrassed circumstances and not in a Mrs. Faulds: This presents me with a position to do anything with the planning difficulty in that I am not sure that I fully approval. understood the question. I understand that Mr. Kneale: You did refer in your address the value of a site reflects the permission to the owner of number 12 — and T. W. which it is given under planning law. Cain and Company were acting on his Obviously, a site for which there is no valid behalf — calling in Mr. Charles Kenn as a planning approval must be worth very much demolition expert, and you asked him to less than one with planning approval. Is this give you advice on the property next door the answer you are seeking? because it was affecting the property of the Mr. Moore: I only wanted to know owner of number 12. Was that so? whether it has been valued. Mrs. Faulds: At that time — this was in M r. Kneale: Following on that line, Your the summer of 1978, Mr. Tarleton Hodgson Excelency, I would ask counsel, did not sought the advice of Messrs. T. W. Cain and this property have planning approval pre­ Sons, who in turn contacted Mr. Kenn, with viously when owned by Hashim’s company? the intention that Mr. Kenn with his know­ ledge as a demolition contractor might be Mrs. Faulds: Yes, I believe that is the able to assist Mr. Tarleton Hodgson with case. the problem which he was . . . M r. Kneale: And was not this property Mr. Kneale: What was the date of that, lying in a dilapidated state for many years please? with the knowledge that it had a planning approval and yet nobody was interested in Mrs. Faulds: This was during the months buying? of May, June and July 1978. Mrs. Faulds: Your Excellency, I have no Mr. Kneale: That is what I thought. It reason to disagree with this statement. I am, was suggested to Mr. Tarleton Hodgson that however, instructed that there would also he might like to buy number 14 but he have been no bar to the Post Office A utho­ declined, and then you said it was offered rity acquiring this site at the same time as to Mr. Charles Kenn but, as a demolition Mr. Kenn, had the Post Office Authority expert, he did not consider it worth buying. wished so to do. Is that so? M r. Kneale: But this property on its own, Mrs. Faulds: That is so. as you should appreciate, was no good to Mr. Kneale: All of a sudden he changed the Post Office Authority as an individual his mind. Why, can you answer that? unit. It was the whole site that we were negotiating for. Dealing with the planning Mrs. Faulds: Yes, I can indeed. This approval that Mr. Kenn applied for and got, gentleman, through his company, Kular are not these exactly the same plans that Holdings Limited, rather than as a demo­ were put in by Hashim with the one varia­ lition contractor, as part of the business of tion that the front had been altered simply Island Holdings Limited, offered a very because now it is in a dilapidated state? different idea in that it was intended that the

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T683

property should be renovated and put into Mr. Kneale: Now, learned counsel, the use — let as office accommodation. registered office of this company, K ular Holdings, is given as number 14 Circular Mr. Kneale: You keep talking about the Road, and it is described as “the office front of this building as if this is the only premises”. Would you consider these office part of the building that is in a bad state premises? of repair and you suggest that the argument between the valuers is based on the valua­ Mrs. Faulds: Sir, I can confirm that it is tion of replacing that front. Have you been the registered office of the company. into this property? Mr. Kneale: Yes, the registered office of Mrs. Faulds: I have indeed, sir. the company. Then this raises the point of what staff occupy the place, and how easy Mr. Kneale: Would you consider that this is it to make contact with the owners or property is in a very good condition inside? even to deliver a letter there? Is there even a letter-box on the property? Mrs. Faulds: I am not an expert on the condition and structure of property, sir. Mrs. Faulds: I understand, sir, that this Memorial and the application before Tyn­ Mr. Kneale: Your valuer, when he went wald have very adequately come to the inside, what was his opinion? notice of the owners of the company and I Mrs. Faulds: I understand that Mr. think there is no doubt that matters relating Cowley accepted it would be possible to to the conduct of Kular Holdings or 14 renovate the property in accordance with Circular Road are adequately coming to the Mr. Kenn’s planning approval and that the attention of the company although, as you prime difficulty would be the condition of have commented, there is nobody actually the front of the property. Without specific in residence at 14 Circular Road. expert knowledge I can give you no further Mr. Nivison: Could I ask, learned counsel, details, sir. is it your contention that as negotiations have not yet been completed, you as Mr. Kneale: Well, we also took expert the Memorialist would oppose the compul­ advice and, as you know, our valuer . . . sory purchase means of acquiring this We had two lots of valuers, one was fully property? You did mention the date, I think acquainted with the premises in the owner­ it was 26th March when some of the parties ship of the previous owner and as recently met. That was only yesterday. as last week our valuer, the Government valuer, went round this property. He Mrs. Faulds: That was yesterday, sir. We described it in a very, very different way to received a message on behalf of Mr. Kenn the way you are describing it — crude that the Post Office Authority valuer would dilapidation. He said he was frightened the not continue discussion with Mr. Patrick whole time he was in the premises; he was Cowley as the representative of Mr. Kenn, warned by Mr. Kenn to make sure he did but leave the matter to Tynwald. So it was not jump on the floor. This is the kind of considered by way of interpretation of that property that you are suggesting is in a message that from yesterday the Post Office reasonably good condition except for the Authority had decided to discontinue nego­ front and I would suggest that the talk about tiations. The submission of the Memorialist the front is a complete “red herring”. What is that for this application to be before Tyn­ we should be talking about is the site value wald today is premature in view of the stage of this property after demolition has taken at which these negotiations are. It is by no place because the minute you pull those means contested that this property can be props away I think there will be a demo­ the subject of a compulsory purchase order lition job done very quickly. and, if the negotiations are to fail, could very properly be the subject of a compul­ Mr. Creer: Could I ask a question, Your sory purchase order. The Memorialist feels Excellency? Could the learned counsel tell dissatisfied and adversely affected by the me —• she keeps on talking about Charles manner in which it has been treated during Kenn being an expert on demolition — how the negotiations, and in the submisssion of many jobs has he done on demolition in the this application to Tynwald at this stage in Isle of Man? (Laughter.) the negotiations.

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. T684 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

Mr. Nivison: It is a. matter of timing. privilege to advise Mr. Tarleton Hodgson Mrs. Faulds: It is a m atter of timing, for a number of years, and we consider him purely, sir. to be a regular client of ours. Mr. Delaney: On a point of clarification, Mr. Kermeen: You have currently no will we be able to ask the mover of this instructions from Mr. Tarleton Hodgson, resolution questions later on? but if there was a petition for compulsory acquisition you might expect to be instructed The Governor: He will be replying to the to act on his behalf? motion in the normal course of events and then you can ask questions in the course of Mrs. Faulds: I would hope to be in­ the debate. structed on his behalf. Mr. Kneale: Will learned counsel explain Mr. Irving: May I ask a question of to us what her client considers to be reason­ learned counsel, Your Excellency? If your able steps to acquire these premises by Memorialist does not feel that sufficient time negotiation, remembering that we have been has been allowed for negotiations to be in contact with Mr. Charles Kenn, or the completed, would learned counsel care to people who were supposed to be his agents, estimate what period of time the Memo­ since 31st August? It only appears that once rialist would consider was reasonable from he got planning approval that he really now on? wanted to negotiate. Could you tell us what Mrs. Faulds: I understand that a further further negotiations could have taken place six or eight-week period would probably which would have got us any further than give sufficient indication whether the com­ we have got today? mon ground could be solved or whether the Mrs. Faulds: By way of answer to that, problem was unsolvable. Your Excellency, I would submit that while Mr. Kneale: What new things are you there is still common ground between the expecting to come to light in the next six to valuers and a basis on which they can be eight weeks that we do not know now? discussing it, and there is a possibility that Mrs. Faulds: The difference in the basis the discrepancy between the two valuers 'between the expert advice which the Autho­ could be resolved by asking an uninterested rity has been given and the expert advice party to submit a valuation, particularly of which Mr. Kenn has been given. the cost of the reparation work which appears to be the primary stumbling block, Mr. Delaney: Is it not a fact that when the matter is still the subject of negotiation the mover refers to the last owner, Mr. and these would be the reasonable steps that Hashim, in 1975 an order was made for Mr. Kenn would expect to be taken and to demolition but he was unable to carry out continue. Mr. Kenn also would expect to be such an order for the demolition of that treated in the same way as the owner of property because there was a restriction number 12 Circular Road, to whom the order from the Water Board who were the Authority has expressed its interest in pur­ adjacent occupiers? So, therefore, he could chasing the property for a similar length of not have carried out by law the demolition time, but, as I have already commented, that as was put forward. So when we talk about property is not the subject of an application a previous owner, before Mr. Kenn, he was for compulsory purchase at this time. in a “Catch 22” situation and he could not demolish the property. And is it not a fact Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, may I ask that Mr. Kenn over many years in business learned counsel whether she or her firm has demolished many, many properties in represents the owner of the adjoining pro­ the Isle of Man, including a large church, perty, number 12 Circular Road? and he is regarded as an expert? Mrs. Faulds: That is a somewhat difficult Mrs. Faulds: That is what the Memo­ question to answer, sir. In relation to the rialist believes and I think it would be interest of the Post Office Authority at this proper for me to refer to the fact that there present time we have no instructions from is at the present time an interim injunction Mr. Tarleton Hodgson. However, I feel it granted by the Chancery Court in respect of would be fair for me to say that in the this property in similar terms to the one normal course of business it has been our granted affecting the property when it was

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T685

under the ownership of Mr. Hashim’s com­ to private property — it is important, I think pany, and at the present time Mr. Kenn that we have regard to private property. would not be able to do any work on the When the P6st ‘ Office Act was passed, I property by way of demolition without think it was under section 4, there was having the injunction lifted. the right given to the Authority to acquire Mr. Delaney: That injunction would also compulsorily. Here, before I risk the in­ apply to the new owners if they were dignation of the hon. member for Council, successful with this petition today, the Post may I say what a good case he has Office Authority? put up, but equally good has been the case presented by learned counsel. I would like Mrs. Faulds: Yes, sir. to see a breathing space to re-examine this. Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I want to You may not wish to see it adjourned, let go back to the date of 21st September which that be the decision of this hon. Court. On was mentioned in your address when you the other hand, I would have liked to have said an agreement for purchase, was it, was seen a conclusion in some way of a treaty first signed on 21st September. with the owner of the adjoining property, Mrs. Faulds: The contracts were ex­ Mr. Tarleton Hodgson, of 12 Circular Road, changed and the deposit was accepted by the because, as the hon. member of Council has vendor on 21st September 1978. admitted, he is a different kettle of fish. He Mr. Kneale: Can I bring Mr. Barry is occupying that place from which he carries on business. And you, Your Excel­ Hughes’ name into this because he was in lency, and hon. members, will know I put touch with our valuers, Chrystal Brothers, on 8 th September claiming to be acting on a question to the hon. member of Council about this because of the perturbation of behalf of the holding company which had the owner of that particular property about recently purchased number 14. Can you the threat of compulsory acquisition. If, explain that to me? indeed, in the breathing space which I ask Mrs. Faulds: I can give you no explana­ now, the Post Office Authority can come to tion of that, sir. I have not discussed this some terms with the owner of number 12 matter directly with Mr. Hughes and have Circular Road, so be it; if not, then it may no specific knowledge with regard to any be that they will decide to go by Petition representations that he may have made at for compulsory acquisition. But I maintain that time. that to grant this particular Petition at this Mr. Kneale: That was the point where we time puts a factor, and an unjustifiable felt a new owner had come in, and we were factor, in the hands of the Post Office given it on a firm assurance from Mr. Barry Authority in attempting to treat as between Hughes that he was acting on behalf of the a willing buyer and a willing seller for the person who had purchased, yet you have acquisition of number 12. It is important, confirmed here that the contract was not I think, that we see that private property entered into until 21st September and is protected and nothing should be done actually the deed of sale was not signed without the normal course which, if the Post until 13th November. Office Authority was not a public corpora­ Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, would tion, if they were some well-to-do bankers, it be appropriate at this moment for me to would have to 'be gone through by the move the adjournment of this matter? normal negotiation as between vendor and The Governor: Are there any more purchaser. I beg to move the adjournment. questions for learned counsel? A Member: I beg to second. Mr. Kermeen: “That in terms of Standing The Govenror: Hon. members, a motion Order 17 the motion in the name of the for the adjournment has been moved. hon. member of Council, Mr. Kneale, be Members will please confine their speches adjourned until the purchase of the ad­ to the adjournment. joining property, number 12 Circular Road, Mr. Kneale: I rise to oppose this, sir. As is determined.” Why I say this is because — I pointed out quite clearly there is an and here I quote from a very interesting absolute difference between these two pro­ little book from a recent parliamentary perties. Number 12 is occupied by a man seminar, talking about the guaranteed right who is running his business from it, but also

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. T686 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979

we are aware that if he has to move from Before that there were delaying tactics in this place to conduct his business in another coming to the negotiating table. Only since place we will have to face up to the situa­ we issued the notice in December, not that tion of giving him compensation for the we were going to compulsorily purchase but move. We are still in discussion with this warning that if reasonable negotiations could gentleman and that is why we are not not take place that would have to be the pushing for compulsory purchase on this. situation . . . All this should emphasise the This man is also in a situation — and this need for not deferring this matter today. you want to remember — his property is You might think I am answering the debate also in a dilapidated condition. It has got a but I feel I want to reiterate these points bulge in the walls of five inches, and if any­ to you. We have been negotiating for seven thing is done to number 14 he is not going months, we have shown an interest in this to be able to remain in those premises while property now since last April, and we are number 14 is being altered because his own no further now with this property than we wall will fall down. So, if there is going to were then. I do not think a deferment can be anything done to this property he will enter into this. Again I stress, Mr Tarleton need to have an alternative property. I am Hodgson is a different person altogether, he sure that this man realises this and that we is a man in business and we have no wish can come to a suitable settlement with him to put a man out of business without giving away from this Court because I believe that him the full opportunity of finding alterna­ he will act in a reasonable way and this is tive premises. But I would hope the Court why we are not pressing at the moment. He would treat these two matters entirely is endeavouring to find alternative property; separately and vote against the deferment. we are also endeavouring to find suitable property for him if we can find it. But Mr. Delaney: I speak in support of the number 14 — this is a property that has deferment. I feel today personalities have been in this dilapidated state. You have come into it. I myself in this hon. Court heard the dates mentioned which is an only a few weeks ago spoke against a certain indication to me, and I hope it is an indica­ person who was in with a Petition then, but tion to you, that the purchase of this today it worries me. The words came out of property was made after we were nego­ the mouth of the mover — a different kettle tiating with what we considered to be of fish, two different sides. Seven months, the owners of number 12 and number 14. eight months is not long, as we know from Yet here we have got a situation where experience, in negotiating the sale of a people are asking us to defer consideration. property in the Isle of Man, it could go on We took two valuers in. Not only did we for years. What worries me about this today have the Government valuer but we engaged is that, as he said, if they could not get it outside valuers. We have had two valuers one way they were going to get it another. who have advised us that the top figure we I did not say that, the hon. mover said that. should be offering is £6,000. This £10,000 The threat was there and that is what that the other side are asking for . . . We worries me about this. had a meeting only yesterday with our advocate and the two valuers and we dis­ A Member: I did not hear him say that. cussed all the ins and outs of this, and their Mr. Delaney: Hansard will show that advice to us is that £6,000 is still the proper the hon. mover said they would use the price. I do not see what effect a deferment power if they had to. Hansard will show will have. We will never get, as far as I can that, and that is what worries me. I would see, any closer to the figure, and remember, much prefer this to be settled outside this we have gone £500 over what we had Chamber and have five or six weeks to do so, offered in the first place, and this is the than for us today to give them carte blanche. highest valuation both valuers have put on. They have admitted that they are going to We have offered more than this. There is treat the other owner, because he is the still no response. I would hope that the occupier, in a different way. We can all Court realise that sweet reason only sud­ understand that, he is running a business denly started to come into the negotiations from there. Whether or not the owner of after planning approval had been given. this particular property we are talking about

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T687

now took it on speculation and used the I do not suppose it is possible to amend a law to get planning permission knowing he motion for the deferment, but I would have will get a price for it, there is nothing illegal hoped That it should not have been qualified about that. It has been going on in this in any way, I would support the deferment Island for 20 years. What is wrong with if it was not qualified. that? We made that rule and if it is used, Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, on a all right. But we cannot turn round to him matter of explanation. I am obliged under and say, ah, because he used it, a certain Standing Order 17 to state a time. person use it, it is wrong. That rule is laid down and planning permission does put the Mr. P. Radeliffe: Your Excellency, could value of property up, and because this man I ask for one point of clarification from the used a legal method by which to increase hon. mover? Did I understand him to say the value of his property, we cannot be that they had been negotiating with regard judge and jury in that effect. I, as I have to this property since last April and Mr. said before, have spoken against this gentle­ Kenn bought the property in August? man on a Petition, along with the Chairman Mr. Kneale: What I said was we had of the Harbour Board and the former mem­ been interested in this property since last ber for Peel. I feel that today five or six April. As I explained in my address at the weeks is not a long time to ask for the two beginning, we have been on the site, we have of them to get round the table and discuss carried out feasibility studies, we have had it. Perhaps even we will get the chance to the place measured up. We had written to find out what the plans for the other pro­ the owners of this property, our valuers, that perty are, because are we going to say now, is Chrystal Brothers, were dealing with the today, that because we have given permis­ people who they believed were owning this sion for this, if the compulsory purchase property on the 31st August last year. goes through, that this is going to be Everything that has taken place since Kular used for the other properties, I hope it Holdings have come in has taken place would not, but we do not know that. So, since 21st September. therefore, let us leave it for five or six weeks. Mr. P. Radeliffe: May I ask another point, Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I regret Your Excellency, regarding the deferment? that the deferment has got qualifications. I The hon. member certainly used the word believe it might have been better if the “negotiating”, so, if you were negotiating motion had been to defer it rather than and were interested from last April, why was qualify it by saying until such time as it that you had not taken the steps to number 12 . . . or whatever the actual words possibly make the offer that Mr. Kenn are. But I do say that the Court itself that eventually made to purchase this property would subsequently deal with the matter of during that period of four or five months? compulsory purchase would have to be sure Mr. Kneale: Simply because there were that negotiations had been satisfactorily five properties involved here, and unless we attempted between the parties and those could get an agreement with the five, one on negotiations had completely fallen down; its own was no use. the Court would be required to know that. Mr. Delaney: Therefore, you have already I believe there is some difference of opinion got an agreement with number 12? as to whether this has actually occurred. The question of the value of the property, Mr. Kneale: We have got an agreement I do not think this is our business. I think with number 10, we have completed the that business is between the people who will purchase of numbers 16 and 18, and we are eventually decide it. I would say, too, that still in discussions with number 12. it is not a sin in any way if one party is The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, negotiating with another, if they do not apart from the natural reluctance of the appear to be making any progress, if they Tynwald Court to sanction the compulsory do negotiate with somebody else. There is purchase order in any case, really there nothing wrong in this, I think. So I would would be no harm done to the Memorialist hope that we might defer this item, giving in this case by granting an order, because time to the parties concerned to have an no-one is going to suffer by it. Once the attempt to come to a satisfactory conclusion. order is made, under the Post Office Act,

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. T688 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979

which I have had a look at, there is no right, money we are talking about and a defer­ for example, of taking possession of the ment means a bigger price at the end of the premises. This was something we were told day for any building. What happens here last year when, I think, it was the Water has plainly and simply been explained; Authority who came before the Court with never mind about getting back and talking a compulsory purchase application. Under between themselves and trying to argue. An the Water Act, once a compulsory purchase arbitrator will see that the proper price is order is made by Tynwald Court, the fixed for the property and if somebody following day possession can be taken buys something which is a derelict property by the Water Authority. That provision and the arbitrator has a look at the property is not contained in the Post Office or puts valuers in, they will come to an Authority Act, so there is no question agreement which should be acceptable to there of taking immediate possession. All ¡both sides. Do not forget, this hon. Court that would happen if a compulsory pur­ must be reminded that if the mover of the chase order was made would be that an resolution is wrong we might lose out on it. official arbitrator would be appointed by The arbitrator might find that the valuation His Excellency, he would hold a hearing, a is much greater than that. Let us be fair hearing which is held in public, each side about it, we are talking about a fair valua­ would be able to call their valuers, they tion of a derelict property^ and I would go would give evidence to the official arbitra­ all the way with my colleague, the hon. tor and he would then say the value of this member for Douglas East, in saying that the property is £X and the matter would then property owner in number 12 must be be concluded. Were it a matter of Mr. protected by this Court, and he must have Tarleton Hodgson’s case next door where a fair deal from this Court and he must he has been in these premises, I understand, be given alternative accommodation if and for perhaps 11 or 12 years, carrying on his when it comes. But when you are dealing business there, in those circumstances the -with people who are dealing in property position is entirely different. It is only right purely and simply to make a “fast buck” that the Post Office Authority should make there is only one way to deal with it and every effort to deal with Mr. Tarleton Hodg­ that is to get the thing off the ground and son and come to an agreement with him. let it go to an arbitrator. The circumstances with regard to No. 14 are Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, in the entirely different. The premises are derelict light of the learned Attorney-General’s and all they are arguing about is the price, explanation of the law, the Post Office Act, and this could easily be done by the I was wondering, under Standing Orders, if appointment of an arbitrator. I may seek the leave of the Court to with­ Mr. Crcer: After hearing the Attorney- draw the motion? I think it has been General, Your Excellency, I am going to adequately ventilated and I think the owner oppose the adjournment. I think we should of number 12 can gain assurance, and this deal with it today. is what I was seeking above all, that he will Mr. Moore: Well, I was going to say, be fairly treated. Your Excellency, that I oppose the adjourn­ Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I was ment for the very reasons that have now going to rise to support the deferment, been explained so lucidly by the Attorney- actually, and I am surprised that the hon. General. This is purely and simply a member is withdrawing it, even having question of a property which is a derelict listened to the Attorney-General and appre­ property that everybody knows-— and if ciating the Attorney-General’s legal point they do not know they want to go and have that, in fact, if we do pass a compulsory a look a t it — and it is a derelict property purchase order arbitration machinery will be which was part of a deal that the Post Office set in order. I was going to support the made. It is all very well, this business of deferment purely on the grounds that it is saying, oh, this is another arm of Govern­ far more satisfactory to my mind for two ment, let us defer it. Any deferment that people to get together, have their heads we talk about on a £-\ million venture puts banged together and come out with an us into debt. The taxpayer pays for it in answer. It is far more satisfactory to my the long run 'because it is Government mind that it -be agreed between two parties

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T6S9 rather than be forced on them by arbitra­ The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I feel tion. It is only at the last event that I would I must, with great respect, say a word here. think abritration is the fairest method to Having listened to the learned counsel, I take place. I have listened to both sides and think we would congratulate her on the I quite agree that the hon. member of the way in which she has presented this case; Legislative Council, Mr. Kneale, presented I think it has been very wonderful. I have a very good case; equally so I think the listened also to Mr. Kneale, the hon. Memorialist presented a good case, and I member of Council. I am sorry that Mr. really think that there is a case for saying Kermeen is now thinking of withdrawing his from the Memorialist’s side that they are amendment —- (interruption) — but I would still prepared to treat. On those grounds simply hope that in the light of what Mr. I would support the deferment. Irving has just said, we are a small com­ munity, I would still hope negotiations The Governor: I think it is best to put could 'go on. Number 12 has yet to be the question. acquired, it is not holding up the develop­ ment of what the Post Office is planning, Mr. Irving: I have kept pretty quiet all and I would like to feel the good name of day but I was going to support the adjourn­ this Court is maintained. I would like to ment. The reason for that is that I believe feel that commonsense in the end may that the major function of a politician here prevail and good relationships between the in the Isle of Man, and certainly one of the residents of Douglas and the business houses most important, is the protection of the of Douglas and this Court are maintained. rights of the individual which are being For that reason I shall support the whittled away, goodness knows, by our amendment. actions year after year. In this case I was not sure, I was not happy that sufficient Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, in opposing time had been allowed for negotiation. I the adjournment, I would point out that in ibelieve-;that-the point of the hon. member asking the Post Office Authority to go back in proposing the adjournment was that more and negotiate, having offered a price which time should be given for negotiation. But has been adjudged as fair, a price which is we were thinking of negotiation not arbitra­ practically twice the price that the Memo- tion; these are quite different things. If I raialists paid for the building a matter of have a property, I want to sell it by nego­ four months ago, you seem to be putting tiation, I do not want to be forced into pressure on the Post Office Authority to arbitration. I know I am very much in the move their ground and I must say that I minority here, but given my time again, in will use what influence I have on the connection with the 1973 Postal Authority Authority to resist any more generous offers Act, I certainly would never have agreed to in that line. section 4 which gives them the right to compulsory purchase for office accommoda­ Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, I think tion. We have agreed in the past many times compulsory purchase should be a last resort to compulsory purchase for important com­ in any case, and I think where someone munity projects such as roads, and so on. appears, as in this case, and asks merely for But I believe that Government departments, more time, for another six to eight weeks, if they want office accommodation belonging unless the Chairman of the Post Office to someone else, should go out on the open Authority can show, we do not want to be market and buy it like everybody else. I difficult with them about it, ibut unless he have a doubt here that sufficient time has can show that it is absolutely essential that been given for negotiation and I think it is this should go through today I would sup­ right that benefit of this fact should go to port the adjournment, because it should be the owner of the property. I appreciate the shown that justice is being done to the need of the Authority, I have listened care­ person whose property is being compulsorily fully to the case of the Chairman, but I acquired and if it is only a matter of a am bound to say that I still would vote for few weeks, well then, let us give them a few a limited period of adjournment to allow weeks and then they will have no complaints negotiations to proceed and not arbitration. and if within those few weeks they cannot

Compulsory Purchase of 14 Circular Road, Douglas—Approved. T690 TYNW ALD COURT, M ARCH 27, 1979 reach agreement then they can come back were £4,000 and £6,000, a differential there for compulsory purchase. of 30 per cent.. How expert are the experts when it comes to valuing property? The Governor: Does any other hon. member wish to speak? The Governor: Do you wish to reply, sir? Mr. Swales: I am supporting the resolu­ Mr. Kneale: I am quite certain the Court tion after listening to the Attorney-General. does not want to waste a lot of time on this, but I will answer the question that Mr. The Governor: We are talking about the Delaney has asked. The difference between amendment. the £4,000 and the £6,000, the £4,000 valua­ Mr. Swales: Yes, I know, I am coming to tion was given by the Government valuer that, sir — (laughter) — but this property without seeing the inside of the property and was sold for £3,500 eight months ago. It has before planning approval was given. Having been valued at £4,000 and £6,000 by pro­ seen the inside of the property after planning fessional valuers. The Post Office have approval was given, and taking into con­ offered £6,500 and the owners are asking sideration the planning approval, he then £10,000. Now, if we accept the resolution raised his figure to £6,000. The other valuers today this will go to arbitration, as the who were outside, competent people. Chrys- Attorney-General says, and, in fact, the tal Brothers, had fixed the top valuation at price will be agreed at arbitration level. £6,000 and said we should not go above that. Now those were the valuers-that we The Governor: Now, hon. members, I will as the Post Office Authority had. The valua­ put the amendment that the motion should tion put on by the property owner is £10,000. be adjourned until the purchase of the ad­ Now that is the difference between our joining property, number 12 Circular Road, minimum of £4,000 and their maximum is determined. Will those in favour please £10,000, but the price they paid in the open say aye; against, no. market was £3,500. As the Attorney- A division was called for and voting General said, after we have decided today, resulted as follows:— if the Court approves the compulsory pur­ In the Keys— chase, this does not mean to say that we can walk in. An arbitrator is then set up and For: Messrs. J. N. Radcliffe, Walker, both sides get round a table and the nego­ Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Delaney, tiation takes place then with an arbitrator. Irving, Mrs. Hanson, Messrs. Kermeen I do not think there could be anything fairer and Christian — 9. than this and I hope the Court will support Against: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. I. this motion today. Radcliffe, P. Radcliffe, Callin, Creer, The Governor: I will put the main ques­ Quinney, Ward, Dr. Moore, Mr. Swales tion, hon. member. Those in favour please and the Speaker— 11. say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The Speaker: Your Excellency, nine votes have been cast in favour of the resolution and 11 votes against, therefore it fails to MR. T. KELLY — RETIREMENT. carry. The Governor: Hon. members, that com­ In the Council— pletes our business but before we adjourn For: The Lord Bishop and Mr. Nivison there is one matter to which I must refer — 2. because, as you know, this is the last occa­ Against: Messrs. Kneale, Crellin, Moore sion on which Mr. Tom Kelly will be in and K erruish -— 4. attendance on this Court in the role of Government Secretary. As you know, too, The Governor: In the Council, two in he has served the Government in a number favour and four against, the amendment of roles for some 32 years and throughout therefore fails to carry, That brings us back this period he has applied himself most to the main question, hon. members. Does dilegently and conscientiously to a wide anyone wish to speak on the main question? variety of duties, more recently in the im­ Mr. Delaney: I have just one question, portant role of Government Secretary and sir. The two quotations for this property head of the civil service and secretary of

Mr. T. Kelly—Retirement. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 27, 1979 T691

Executive Council. Over this period he has Members: Hear, hear. displayed those qualities of industry, dis­ The Governor: The gentlemen of the cretion and integrity which are so essential Council will now withdraw and leave Mr. in the senior ranks of the civil service, and Speaker to put to the Keys such business as in the process he has, I believe, won the he may wish. confidence and respect of his political masters, his fellow colleagues in the civil service and the members of the public with whom he has-dealt and I feel sure that hon. members will support this assessment of the HOUSE OF KEYS value and the quality of Mr. Kelly’s services, The Speaker: We adjourn, hon. members and it is therefore with every confidence of the House of Keys, until Tynwald next that I record this expression of appreciation Tuesday at 10.30 a.m. on your behalf and wish him and Mrs. Kelly a sucessful and happy retirement. The House adjourned.

House of Keys.