1852 1852[ASSEMBLY.]

£:320; total, £35,820. A contract has been lcoitlative Besseibip, let to Drakesbrook Road Board for £1,000 for Tuesday, 15th November, 1927. construction work on the Waroonai East and West Road, and the work is now in pro- gress. Payments to date amount to £713. Pupe Assent to Bill...... 1852 Auditor General's Report...... 188 Questions: Federal road grat-i, Wooroloo.ClatlinG.l0 Nortban' road ; 2, Albany, Wandering, QUESTION-RAILWAY PROJECT, Waroona TOadS...... 1882 tla project, Lake Grace-BUst Jilakin- LAKE GRACE-EAST JILARIN- K14aj-ll...... L...... 1862 Bills: Racing Rtariction, 2R., Con .. : 1852 KALGARUT. State Children Act Azacodiucat, returned ... 1887 Mr. E. B. JOHNSTON asked the Pre- mier: 1, What is delaying the report of the special Committec whioh was appointed The SPEAK lER took the Chair at 4.30 to review the recommendation of the Rai- p.m., and read prayers. way Advisory Board in regard to the Lake Grace-East Jilakin-Kalgarin railway? 2, Is it the intention of the Government to in- ASSENT TO BILL. troduce a Bill for the conptruetion of this Message from the Governor received and railway before the session closes? read notifying assent to the Traffic Act replied: 1, The report Amendment Bill. The; PREM)IER is available, and is now laid upon the Table of the I-louse. 2. The mnatter is receiving con- sideration. AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT. .MNr. SPEAKER: I have received from the Auditor Gleneral, in pursuance of Section 53 BILL-RACING RESTRICTION. of the Audit Act, 1904, the 37th Report for Second Reading. the financial year ended the 30th June, 1927, which I now lay on the rui-le of the House. PA. NORTH (Claremont) [4.37] in moving the sec-and rending said: This Bill seeksq to prohibit racing 'between animals QUESTIONS (2)-FEDERAL ROAD other than horses, where mechanical devicos GRANT. aire used. I need hardly remnind members TT'oroloo-Clackiine-Northam Road. that there has been a good deal of comment in the Press of late concerning the now in- ilon. G. TAYLOR asked the Minister for venation of tin hanre coursing. was the amiount of money Works: What Mr. Maln: Of course we did not notice s-pent on the Wooroloo-Clnckline-Northam; that. road, from the 1st January to the 31st Octo- ber, 1927, under the Federal Aid Roads Mr. NORTI-n: Even in the Old World A ct? there has been a great deal of comment conl- cernling- this, new form of sport. Members FOR WXVORKS replied: The M3INIISTER will doubtlecss have read the remarks of the Midland Junetion-Merredin road: Wooro- well known writer "Touchsitone" ;in the "Aune~- loo-Clnckline-'Northarn section, £31,500. trulasian." He is not looked upon as a per- son who can be said to favour re.4iceting Albonuz, Wandering, IWeroona Roads. people's pleasures. We i4 a general sports-. Hon. G. TAYLOR asked the Minister for man, and writes for sporting papers. Works: What was the amount of money "Toncb~tone" decalt Ivith the quletion of jrn hare coursing in the following spent onl the Albany road south of Armadale, mannier: and in the Wandering Rad Board District, But all of the finovations to he met with and the Waroona road, fromn the 1st .Tann- in Sydney are not jiltogcther ndinir,le)1. There ary' to the 31st October, 1927, under the is, for instancev, the so-called ''tit hare'' coursing. The farin is a miisnnter: there is Federal Aid Roads Act? n tin about the contraption, and there is no The MINISTER FOR WORKS replied: coursing. The greyhounds simiply rare sitraight ahead: nzaist each other. incied thereto b~y Perth-Albany road, Souith of Armadalle to the sight of a stuffedl hare skin in front of Albany, £35,500; Wandering Road Board, them, (15 NovEmB~ra, 1927.] 151853

He goes on in a deprecatory way and draws Mr. tNQRTH: I am merely pointing- out attention to the class of persons who make that as a general rule gambling must 1weas- bets in the ring. His remarks are designed sociated with these sports. to show that this form of racing will only Mr. Cot boy: You are illogical. lead to gambling, and to the possible loss Mr. NORTH: I am not attempting to in- of money by those who cannot s-pare it. It terfere with any sports, as such. may not be his business to moralise in this The Premier: Are you trying to be a kill- Laslilon. I am merely giving a general to- joy? ,;tme of the facts to show that the Press have ,Mr. NORTH: I assliube that these sports been particularly hostile concerning the in- will not last five minutes if gambling is not troduction of this sport into Auatralks- permitted in conjunction with them. No There must be good reason for that. T hare doubt that point will be common ground dur- here some remarks made by the "Manchester ingv thle debate. Guardian." This is a paper of -world-wide Mr. Qlorboy: YOU are apologising f Or your reiiown. Most members will have either own Bill. seen copiePs of it or heard] it referred to. It Mr. 1lnnn: Surely Section 209 of the is one of the finest papers in the Old World, Crimina Code is sufficient to enable the liberal in policy and broadminded. This i. Government to stop all1 betting! what a leading article published in that Mr." NORTH: No, We allow gambling paper had to say upon the subject in Sep- to go onl, though it is illegal. I would he temnber of this year- one of the first to support a measure that the Premier might introduce to legalise The Legislature, which presumably repre- gambling on the turf, or, if he liked, to legal- seats public opinion, has gone to a good deal ise gtuniibling- in connection with tin hares. of pains at one time or another to manke gninbli ig difficult; public lotteries, sweep- This Bill is to restrict gambling- to certain stakes, untl bettisig, except in a recognised dlefined Spheres. '' place"'-all are illegal. Betting onl horse- Mr. ('orboy: The Bill does not deal with raving is a suillirient, social evil, hat even that has been hedgeVd :gloiut with restrictions; it is the achievement of the greyhound racers that Mr. NORTH: Buit my remarks -will do so. they hare marie betting safe-and easy-for TPhis Bill is; to prevent a new form of gamb- detmovracy, and have, at the same timec, dis- ling evil. covered a mean1s of great profit for themselves and the bookmakers. Presumably Pariament, Mr. Corhoy: No. which in tine pa:st hias hadl i,?ws oi the subject Mr~. Sleian : Pedestrianism anti 1icycle of betting, will take notice of a movement racing are flourishing without betting. which, in every considerable centre of popu- Intion thfoughouit the COontry, is setting tip a The Premier: What about the trots, too'? gigantic betting machine for the denmoralisa- Mr. Corboy: You can race a horse and tion of bioth sexes, aind of old and 'young alike, bet on it, but you are not to he allowed to Mr. Mann: That deals more with belting. race a dog and bet on it. Mr. NORTH: Yes, entirely. Mr, NORTH: I am not hero as a strong The Premier: It relates only to betting. partisant talking about taxi routes. I pr'i- pose to put my arguments for a-nd against Mr. NORTH: Yes. I am not trying to the principles I amt enunciating-, and will deprive people of their pleasures., or to re- finish uip by supporting the Bill, because I srict them from amnusing themselves in think there is more to be said for it than watching horses or dogs, or watching fleas against it. The chief objection to the intro- hop or grasshoppers jump. It is a general duction of tin bare coursing, or any other principle with all these sports that they formi of animial racing by thle use of mechan- cannot last five minutes if gambling is not ical devices, is that there is already too much permitted in conjunction with them. gambling in force among1st the people. rn the second place, all existing forms of Mr. Corboy: What about the speedways sport and gambling are well catered for at thc and motor bicycle racing? Has not the present time. In Western Australia there speedway gone on without betting? is far more enterprise and initiative M2r. NORTH: That may or may not be so. shoxvn in dealinig with the spendin~g I am not dealing writh speedways hut with power of the people than there is tin hare coursing. initiative shown where efforts are 'Ar. Sleeman: Why not wipe out all those made to p1roduce wealth for the people. who bet?7 Let me take the ease of -en men who go 1854 1864ASSEMBLY.]

into business. Nine of these will invest ropolitan area we find that after working their money in some formn of catering or hours, every one is well catered for by amusement or a drapery establishment, way of sports and amusements. There while only one will start ai plaster factory are the races and the trotting meetings. or something that is calculated to produce there are the yacht races, cricket and so now wealth. That being so, it is essentiam forth, while there are theatres and picture that the legislature shall be chary about shows as well. It all indicates to bon. encouraging enterprises in the world of members the tremendous effort that is put sport that will cater for the gambling evil. forward by various people to cater for Already there are quite sufficienit forms of the public along those lines. There can hie amusement provided for those who desire little reason for a State like Western Aus- to bet. Ron. members should realise, when tralia, with so much primary production they come to consider the introduction ot before it, and so much wealth to be made, a form of sport that must be associatedl to labour under the incubus of still more! with gambling, they encourage the least de- people hanging on to the gvneral piublic in sirable form of amusement. Someone in- an effort to secure their spending money. terjected a little while ago that there was It must be recognised that efforts in this no need for gambling in connection with direction will not assist the State one jot. football. We know that the whole distinc- The establishment of tin hare coursing will tion between horse racing, trotting and like merely mean the provision of t'nothcr form branches of sport, and what I might term. of gambling that will imkpose a further ordinary sports, is that the former class drain upon the public. Everv week so many) cannot exist without gambling, while the thousands of pounds are spent in amuse- latter can. I defy any lion. member to mneats. of various descriptions and it must urge seriously that tin hare coursing, or be realised that Ihe establishiment of every any other fonax of racing of that deserip. new sport involving the extension of gamb- tie;, could last a month if gambling were not ling, meanis so many hundreds of pounis permitted. taken away from existing sports. Hon. Mr. Chesson: Then why are you so con- members should ask themselves if it is wvorth cerned about it? It can start, and it can die. while, and whether Parliament is justified Mr. NORTH: I will come to that. in allowing- the establishmewnt of still n- Mr. Gorboy: Motor cycle racing has other forin of gambuling-. Particularly lasted without betting. should they consider that viewpoint when Mr. NORTH: I am endeavouring to we realise that the financial position of thc show hon. members that there is already State is not so very bright. Western Aus- too much gambling in our midst, and that tralia owes'something like £70,000,000. Our Parliament should not sanction the estab- staple production, upon which all amuse- lishment of another sport 1hat will meant meats and sports depend, ;-i drawn from a an additional drain upon the people's few major linies. Of theie timuber is one, earnings. In Western Australia we are well] and we must realise that var forests are catered for with amusements and sports. In being cut out quickly. Other forms of pro- fact, we are as well catered for here as are duetion on which the State depends relate the people in any other country in the to wool and wvheat, which ore governed en- world. To complete my arguments in favour tirely by the world's miarkets. If there were of the Bill, I would draw th~e attention of sudden turn of the world's3 markets a"anq hon. members to a new work on political our wool and wheat, all the,,e various forms economy entitled "The Bleal Wealth of of amusements would fall to the ground Nations." It shows that an analysis of the like a ripe orange. We would be sky- transactions of a number of people who high financially. Realising that position, succeeded in business, demonstrates that members should ask themselves if they should 90 per cent. of their wealith was earnedl encourage this additional form of gambling. from money invested in draper~y shops, the It has been suggested that gambling is not sale of beer, or amusements of various des- covered by the Bill. I urge hon. members criptions, while one-tenth only of it was the to consider that aspect seriously. They must result of investment in forms of production realise that tin hare coursing, or any other that are so essential to a country. If we con- form of sport of this description, could not sider the occupations of people in the met- last for five minutes if gambling were not (15 NOVEMBER, 1927.] 1855

permitted. What arguments are there MR. SLEEMA4N (Fremantle) E4.52]: 1 against the Bill? The first is laissez faire; move an amendment- the liberty of the subject; unlimited comn- That ''now'' be struck out with a view petition. I can conjure up the spectacle of to inserting "this day six months" in lieu. some hon. members devoting a quarter of an hour to the necessity for unlimited cons- HON. SIR JAMES MITCHELL. (Nor- petition. The policy of laissez faire is an tham-on amendment) [4.53]: I am sorry exploded one. It was the practice of laissez that the amendment has been moved in such faire in international relationship that led a way. People who can move amendments to the great war. Laissez faire in the home like that have not much courage. They have does not exist. Every day the people arv not a word to say in support of the amend- confronted with restrictions. There is no went. such thing as freedom. We are hedged Mr. Sleeman: We will show our courage round with customs and regulations by by our vote. which certain things are not permitted. It Hon. Sir JAMES MITCHELL: Why is to that encircling tyranny that we owe should the Bill be read this day six months? any liberty we possess. Where is there any Rave members not sufficient courage to con- freedom for the subject regarding gambling sider such a simple measure? or betting? The whole thing is strictly con- Mr. Slenan: Why waste time? fined, just as is the liquor traffic. There are Hon. Sir JAMES MITCHELL: It is reasons for that. It was found that the drink mere humbug to suggest that tin hare conns- traffic should be carefully curtailed and regu- ing can continue without gambling. I do lated, and the same thing has applied to var- not look upon gambling in the light that ious forms of sport. In my electorate there is some people do, and I do not know that 1 a strong public feeling against the estab- can object if the people have the money to lishnment of tin hare coursing. It was made spend. On the other hand, I object to the manifest as the result of meetings and a wholesale gambling that goes in this State referendum. to-day. It is an iniquitous practice and will lead to trouble. I object, Mr. Marsll: Can you say why tin hare therefore, to any means that will increase the facilities coursing is not wanted by those peopleq for gambling. Mr. Sleenian: You need not have it at Mr. Sleeman: You made no attempt to Claremont if you do not want it! stop it when you were in power. Mr. NORTH: I am speaking for the Hon. Sir JAMES MITCHELL: We may people of Claremont, and I have sufficient delude ourselves into the belief that if wve authority from them to permit me to movo allow this sport to be established without the second reading of this Bill. We have gambling, it will be all right, but in adopt- in Western Australia 370,000 people. We ing that attitude we shall be humbugging cannot expect to ape all the wonderful con. the people. We do not object to dogs being ditions of society in London, with its popu* raced. We already have our whippets in lation of 7,000,000 people, nor cnn we ex- Western Australia and what are the gold- pect to ape Melbourne and Sydney with fields people going to say about the estab- their huge populations. We know that lishment of this form of opposition? money is tight and the banks have a sorry Mr. Chesson: Why should it not be estab- tale to tell. Overdrafts are being called up. lished? In view of that position alone, we should Hon. Sir JAMES MITCHELL: Are the not consider encouraging the establishment people who pay for it going to tolerate this of another sport that will mean a furthei form of competition? Mr. Chesson: Why not? drain on the earnings of the people. In viewv of the vote recorded in my electorate, Ron. Sir JAMES MITCHELL: Why do not members discuss the Bill? I. hope mem- when the result of the referendum indicated bers will deal with the measure on its merits, against the establishment a strong protest and I hope they will reject the amendment. of this form of amusement, I have a perfect Long ago the Premier said there was too n~iidate to place the Bill before the House. much gambling in this State. I move- Mr. Marshall: Why not start with the That the Bill bo now read a second time. raccourses and cut out the betting there? [ASSEMBLY.]

Hon. Sir 3XIAMES MHITCHELL: Any Ron. Sir JAMJES 'MITCHELL: Thosew mnembler who says that we can have tin hare who rote against 11w Bill will vote for aii coursing without gambling does not believe additional opportunity to gamible. -what he says, or else be is very inexperi- Mr. Corboy: That is a deliberate mis- enc~ed. We kiiow what it will be. We have statement. quite sufficient racing in this State at present Hon. Sir JAMES MITCHEIr'LL: It is a and quite sufficient opportunities for gainli- deliberate statement of fact. If this form hago. The sport is indulged in in thle Old oif sport. is established here: it will be av- Country to a considerable extent. In New (ompanied by gambling. South Wales it is in existence and there the Mr. Marshall: You bave got your bookmakers are licensed for the coursing opinion out of the public Press. mneetingsi. 1 do not know bow it is proposed Ron. Sir JAMES 'MITCHELL: 'It would to license the bookmakers in this State. I n~pquite refreshing- if the lion. member wouild know that l)ookmakers Fave to pay license gect an opinion from anywhere at all, It tees before they are permitted to bet on the is better to get opinions from a good source racecourseb. than not to hold any opinion whatever. T Mr. Sicemian: And you know that is have been pretty consistent in questioningu illegal. the wviidom of penuitting the wholesale Nion. Sir JAMIES MITCHELL: Yes. gamlbling- that goes on in this State. lIon. G. Taylor: It is not. MTr. Corboy: You established the W~bite Hion. Sir JAMIES 'MITCHELL: Frow City. the early days of this State, we have had Hon. G. Taylor: You had better leave horse racing and I suppose betting was con- ouit the White City. ducted then as well. That, however, does Hon. Sir J-AMES MITCHELL: I do not not mean that we must agree to the intro- want to leave out White City, hut certainly duction of every form of sport sugge1sted, J did not establish gainbling at the White thus providing additional opportunities for city. gambling. Mr. Corboy: Of couirse you did. Mr. Marshall: If the sport is not popular Bon. Sir JAMES MITCHJELL: Long be- it will die out, so why worry? fore I came into offie the thing was run at. lion. Sir JA'MES MITCHELL: I am not the back of the Supremec Court in a tein- worrying; the hon. member is worrying. p'orary structure. I said it must he re- Mr. Marshall: No, I am not. moved to where it now is. Hon. Sir JAM[ES MITCHE LL: Then the Mr. Corboy: Yes, you provided a perma- hon. member is worried without it. nent home for it. Mr. 'Marshall: 'No. but if 1 wished to cut Hon. Sir JA-\VEFS MITCHELL: I think out gamibling, it would start where it is iii the Silver Chain and the Ugly Men's MAso- evidence. siation were the only people concerned at H~on. Sir JAMIES 'MITCHELL: I have! the time. They bad the place long before. been surprised to hear some of the inter- I merely shifte d it to another Site. jectious by bon. members. They must real- The Premier: You made them more com- ise that the Bill merely sets out that -we fortable. shall not have this form of gambling estab- Ron. Sir JAMES MITCHELL: I do not lished ini our midst. We say the sport can- think it was very comfortable then. It was not be established without gambling ant i a1 very rough place indeed. It has been everyone knows that is so. Those who vote improved sine.e. tbpin. I had no objection to for the Bill will vote against another oppor- the moderate gambling that in those days tunity being afforded to the public to went on for purely charitable purposes. Bat gamble in a convenient fashion. Doubtless it has now grown beyond control, it is the dog races -will be run at night time under out of hand nltogu~ther. The sort of pleasant circumstances. The sport will bec tigIwsawys willing to agree to made attractive, particularly to young was such gambling as consists in guess9- people, and naturally they will indulge ac- ing tbe number of peas in a pot. But cordingly. Let lion, members he honest. it is no longer a question of some Those who vote for the Bill will vote against simiple means of gambling. Day after day any addition to the gambling facilities that and night after night people are engaged now exist. upon more serious forms of gambling. T Mr. Sleeman! There is no gambling men- entirely disapprove of that. At Boulder tioned in the Bill. they have a White City continually going. [15 Novaxman, 1927.) 1857

Mr. Corboy: And even at Northamn. lion. Sir JAMES MITCHELL: I believe Hon. Sir JAMES MITCHELL: Yes, the hon. member is an expert in these matters even at Northarn they established a White and so I accept his opinion. However, I City. hlope the House will reject the amendment The Minister for Works.' Wby pick Nor- mjoved by the member for Fremantle. thaem? Hon,. Sir JAMNES MITCHELL: I sup- HON. G. TAYLOR (Mount Margaret-on io~e because it is said to be a city amendment) [,5.7]: 1 cavn..ot support the of churches. But wvhat dlid they do oiendment. It is the most drastic action ait Nrorthan ? Mr. Gray, ii, another that has beenr taken on a second reading since pliee, could tell uts all about it. They I have been in Parliament. MIAntiup there, secured a block of lan,) Mr. Sleenian: It is a pretty drastic Bill. and said they wanted to build a Trades lion. G. TAYLOR: I do not know that Hall. To this end they got up a gambling the ll needs such desperate treatment. 1 stunt, with the idea of raising £1,500. But hope the House wilt be permitted to discuss when they got that amount. instead of build- the Bill. ing the Trades Hall *they sold- the block of The Premier: It is at form of execution land and cleared out, leaving everybody la- without trial. meat ing. There was decency neither in their Ilon. C. TAYLOR: It i% indeed. I am forms of gambling, nor in their methods more than surprised at th earnestness and after they secured the sumn they wanted. I cmthu.,iasm evinced by mnembers of the Gov. helieve thte vaney was used for electioneer- emnnt cross-benches in this simple little ing- purposes. measure. Bit. Sleemian: With very good results. Mr. Panton: They all have a greyhound lon. Sir JAMNES MITCHEL'-: Yes, each. fromt the lion. member's point of view, ex- lion. 0. TAYLOR: I1remember that not cellent results. long ago the Premier was pleading for a Mr. Corboy: But you would not object reduction of the franchise of another place. to thmeerection of a Trades Hall There was no enthusiasm iii our friends op- Bon. Sir ,TAMFS M,%ITCHELL: I posite on that occasion. They certainly voted would not object to the erection of a Trades when the time camne, but while the Premier H-all uaywhere. Anything for the benefit was speaking we could all hear him. On this of the workers has my support. But when flitasion opponents of the Bill hare worked it comies to the carrying on of gambling themselves up to an astounding iich of ex- stunts in order to get fund, for an election citemient, and one could scarcely hear the campaignl, I certainly do object. Leader of the Opposition speaking. The Bill Should he fairly discussed If members op- Mr. Corboy: I wish I could have got some jposingl it aire afraid to hear arguments in of it. favour of it, then sdeiingly th.qy have a lon. Sir JAINES MITCHELL: I hope very poor case. The member for Fremantle the hon. member did not get monty for his would be wise in withdrawing his amnend- election from gambling. If so, he was about iuent and allowing the Bil! to be discussed the only one over there who did not. I hope on the second rending. Then let those in the House will reject the amendment Moved favour of it put up their reasons for it, by my friend from Fremantle and will then whbilst those opposing it can put the case consider the Bill on its merits. We all know against it. There is nothing drastic in the that if tin hare coursing is established in this measure. It is idle for anybody to say that State it will lead to gambling on the part of ttanbling will not follow any form of sport. many young people. I honpe nobody here Mr. Sleeman: It followed bicycle racing. would approve of that. Hon. G. TAYLOR: Yes, gambling has, Mr. Sleeman: Would you stop whippet silenced more men in sport than has any- racing and bicycle racing, because they lead thing else. Some sports of course lend them- to gambling? selves to gambling more than do others. Ron. Sir JAMES MIITC ELL: Those The Premier: Foot-racing, for instance. forms of sport are already established here. Hon. G. TAYLOR: Yes, I am reminded Mr. Marshall: There are many more by the Premier of what Eappened to foot risks in bicycvle racing than in rap.ng whip. racing. It was very much practised at pets or tin hares. Kalg-oorlie and Boulder in the old days.. 1858 185A SSEM BLY.]

W~here have oll our old lpedestrianls gone to? racing conducted by proprietors is inserted luet us be fair. in the platform of the Politieal Labour .AMr. Sleemtan: Are you fir? P'Iarty. Hlon. '. TAYLOR: I !um trying to itn- IAIr. SPEANila3: The only question be- duee Clie house to let the, Bill be diseussel. Lure thie Chair is the amieinment that tile It I amn going to support the Bill -1 will word 'now" be omitted. J)Lt up reasons for it at the proper time- M)r. E. K. JOl-NSTON\: At any rate, T I earniot do it onl this niesndment-wherena think it is a good Bill, that it was wvell if 1 amngoing- to oppose it, I will put up introduced by the miember for laremnont, reasons' at-ainst it. . I have z.ever seen such and that it fully deserves consideration oil a drastic amendment qince I have been iii its mqrits. If there is a ease against the 1Pa riament. Bill, it should be put up ow-inly I am 0- Mr. SPEAKER : I had better put the lirely o1)posed to this atto~nijt to destroy% House right. The mnember for Freiatie the mneasure and permit ti hare racing to has not moved his mnotion strictly in ordoc. be eslabiished in Western Ausiftralia without 'f he question really before thle Hlouse is a ny consideration by this h1onse. I hold that the word "now"- be omitted with at view that the r-upporters; of tin hare rating should to adding- the words "this 'lay six mOnthis? comne out into the open and Put uip a case, The question is, that thie Word proposed to aga--inst the Bill. lie omitted stand ;mort ot *1w qiuestion, That is, the only pioint that can hie discussed. MR. SAMPSON (Swan--on amend- inent) 15.151 : Without e-xpressinw any MR. E. B. JOHNSTON (Wijamis-Narro- opinion at I his stage on] tl12 r-ighlts or ivrongni gin-ott amiendment) C5.111 1 ami sur- of ti hare raprng, 1 shalt certainly vote prised that the lion. muember should hatvu against the amnendmient. 'The m1oving of moved his amiendmient: without giving a nv the aniendinent was not consistent with the: reason for it. The miember for Claremiont sporting- spirit usuafly inaiifested by. ft'- introduced the Bill aind mnade out a gootl member for Fremantle. ease for it, one flint probably would appeal Mr. Slemon : The Bill d1oes not nian- to a majority of the peopilc int this State feet any sporting spirit, either. Then we are asked bty the mnember for Fre- Mfr. SA31PSON: .1 aml prepared to give mantle to guillotine the Bill, although no the Bill a run for- its jimoncuy, and I think reason is given for the amendment. we should discuss it iu thisi House. The Hon. G1.Taylor: That ii tile new brani~ subjct is one on whii-h Impblic opinion is of democracy. sharply divided, and one that shank] be dig- .)r. E. B. JOIIN\STON: The desire es- cussed fully and without iry ambiguity. I pressed in the Bill is to --top the introduc- would ho sorry if the amnen-Ineut wvere car lion of tin hare racing in this State. Xs vied. To' dispose of the Bill in that war far as my inquiries have gr-rne, I have nitL would not be in tile best interests, of thev bepen able to learn that tin hare racing_ ha-; State, and it would bring thi; Hlouse done any good in any part of Austria into a nicasure of disreputv. When an ini- where it has beeni allowed to~ be established. portant miatter- and this3h is ni ortant in Mr.% Sleeinan: There arc other things the minds of tile plublie--is introdneed, we about which that could bo sanid. as- the represen tatfives of the people should Mr. E. B. JOHNSTONY: Yes, I know. face it, submit urzinnents for or agailnst, But this is a newr thin- altogether. We and b~e prepared to vote on tlle mnerits. have alri'ady a nuimber of (..tahlished forms Alr% Carbioy: You clo not think it di.- of sport in respect of' which gambling can reputable for another plao' to treat C1oy- he carried on. But mos~t of them are not. ernmnent Bills in tllat way' run by proprietors. Mr. Siceman : No, it is quite righlt thent! Mr. Corhoy: Mfost of themn are. Mir. Corboy: It is quite right when youi 1Mr. E. B. JOHNSTON: I amn not in are opposed to a Bill! favour 6f proprietary racing. One of the Mr. Lathanm: Snobt Billk are generally characteristics of tin hare r:'eing is that ic discussed in another place. is almost always cardied on by proprietary Mr. SAMPSON: On general principles;, coacernup. So far as I can learn, it has not another place mnight be quite right in taking done. au~y good anywbert. in Australia. I such action, but I do not wish to discuss. hav& vet to learn that ganibling on tin hare that question now. I fear that the momn- [15 NovEmBEP., 1927.] 185915 ber for 'Freman tle acted on the spur of the should be canied I shall miss an oppor- moment and without giving the matter the tunity to say what I wish to say. consideration that he usually gives to ques- Mr. Corboy: You cannot discuss the Bill. tions, In the circumstances 1 should not he 31r. LATHAM: I am aware of that, but surprised if lie asked ]cave- to withdraw I1 do not want to he told it by the hion. the amendment. member. I shall rely on the Speaker. Uf we do not discuss the qupsfion to-day, tin HON. W. D, JOHNSON (Guildford hare racing may get a ;ix months' run in -on amendment) [5.17]: 1 regret that thle this State and it would then be unfair for mnember for Fremnantle has moved the the House to prohibit it without giving very amendment because he has given no reason good reasons. We should be honest and de- for it and this is a question that has occu- cide during this session whether tin hare pied the public mind for some times and upon racing is in the best interests of the public. which the public are looking to Parliament Anyone who has visited Sydney and seen to make a. declaration. tin hare racing there must be convinced of Members: Hear, hear! the necessity for discussing it here without Hon. WV. D. JOHNSON: The Bill should delaying the question for six months. A be discussed on its merits. while ago I was impressed by the remarks Mr. Sleenian: And thrown out after- of a very able gentlemaht who delivered a wards?7 speech in the interests of the working people Hon. AV. D. JOHNSON: If the hion. mem- of the world. I refer to the Rev. Mr. Barr. her desired the rejection of the Bill, which His remarks convinced me that such meas- deals 'with a question on which public atten- ures as the one before us should have consid- tion has been concentrated for some time, be eration before a sport like tin hare racing should have given the public reasons for dis- is permitted to be established, posing of it by a sudden death motion. Mr. Sleeman: Some of his views would Mr. Marshall: He is not as old a Parlia- not suit you. mentarian as you are. Mr. LATHAM: All his views suit me. Mr. Latham: He is pretty wise, though. Mr. Corboy: Then come over here. Hon.. W. D. JOHNSON: We should not Mr. LATHAM: The trouble is his views take into consideration the fact that the Bill are not endorsed by members on the Gov- has come to us from thle Legislative Council. ernment. side; otherwise we should be given That question should not influence us; nor an opportunity to discuss this Bill. What should we be influenced i our opinion by Mr. Barr said convinces me that we should the fact that a certain member has intro- discuss the Bill before we allow the people duced it. We should judge the Bill on its to invpst their money in tin hare ventures. merits. It dcal6 with public morals and Not only are the promoters interested in the it is a oucation about which the public are question, but a company is being floated anid greatly concerned. Consequently we bhould. people will invest their money in the sport. have an opportunity to diseusa the mneritht If in six months' -time we found it necessary instead of having the Dill rejected -without to prohibit the sport we would have delayed being able to express our views. I feel that a decision that should he given to-day. We the member for Fremantle has acted on the shbould face the question manfully and -not impulse of the mioment and, with the mem- in a cowardly way, as I contend wre should her for Swan, I suggest he ask leave to with- do if we agreed to the amendment. draw the amendment and allow the Bill to he discussed on its merits. MR. GRIFFITHS (Avon-on amendment) [5.22] : I regret that the member for Fre- MR. LATHAM (York--on amendment) mantle has moved a sudden death motion [5.191: I am sorry that it is desired not to to dispose of the Bill. Whatever atti.tude T give the House an opportuinity to discuss the may adopt to the measure subsequently, I Bill. cannot support the amendment. The reasons- Mr. SPEAKER: If the amendmnent be why wve should discuss the Bill have been lost, the House will be able to discuss it. ably stated by the member for Guildfordl. Mr. LATHA3M: But I anticipate that the Members should have a fair opportunity to debate such a measure. lion, member has counted heads and knows that thle amendment will be carried. If it Amendment put and negatived. jASSEMBLY;J]

MR. E. B. JOHNSTON (Williams-Nar- maker ot on the totalisator, but it I am not rogin) [5.23]:; I move-- in a position to go to the racecourses- That the debate be adjourned. .1r. Lathanm: You can bet in the street. MUr. PANTON: If I go into a tobaccon- Motion put and negatived. ists's shop and have a bet, I am liable to ho arrested and Suned £5 or £C6. MR. PANTON (Menzies) [5.24]: To- Mr. Latham : But you can bet in the day 1 received a circular, and I dare say street. other members have received one, dealing 31r. PANTON: Yes, but by so doing I with this question) and if anything would render the man making the bet liable to a tend to assist the passage of the Bill the fine of £14). On Saturday last I walked as, arguments contained in the circular would, far as the OxNford Hotel, Leederville, not to though they "'ore intended to have the con- have a lbet 01, a drink, but for another pur- trary effect. p3ose, and just as 1 got there at man wa4 H1on. G. Taylor: I do not think I hove arrested for bettingl. Yesterday be was the circular of which the hon. member fined £10. speaks. Hon. G. Taylor: It is a good job they did M1r. PANTON: I cannot believe that I no t mistake you for him. was the only memtber to receive it. MNr. 1'ANTON: A bookmaker must have, Mr. North: Let us leave the circulars out. ain intelligent look, and so neither th mem- I did not issue them. ber for 'Mt. Margaret nor myself would run M1r. P'ANTON: I do not wrant to leave an'vrisk of being1 arrested for bookinaking. the circular out, because it has a lot to do Atpres;ent the Federal Government refuse with what I wish to soy. to transmit mny 6s. or 7s,. through the pos.t Mr. Sampson: Is it a typewritten one? for a ticket in Tattersall's swep. but if T Mr. PANT ON: Yes. get the mioney' to Tattersnals and win a prize Hon, G. Taylor: I1have not seen that one. the Government collect 12V 2, per cent. on it. M1r. Richardson: That is fromt the in- The whole attitude to gambling is one oif ventor of the machine. rank htypocrisy from start to finish. Mr. 'Marshal]: The Government collect Mr. PAN'TON: Ye.-;, it is signed "A. B, one penny, on every ticket issued by a book- Watts." I am not going to support the Bill maker. because I have my own ideas, about gino- 31r. PANTON: huing in Australia. I hold the opinion that Not now. As to coursing, nto one loves it better than I do, and when there is more hypocrisy to the square inch I say coursing I mean real coursing. I have on the question of gambling thant on any not seen a tin hare show. The best 1)art of other question. my younacr days was spent on a horse be- Mr. Corboy: Of course there is. hind good zireyhounrls chiasing hares. Mr. PANT ON: There is a good deal in Ron. Sir Jamest Mitchell: What a pity! the allegation that there is one law for the Mr. PANT ON: If a lot more had done -rich and another for the poor in the matter the same thing in their youth there would of gambling. A rich mian can go to his elub have been less need for children's courts in the city and play poker till all hours of nOW. the night and for any stake hie likes. Mr. North: This Bill will not affect that. Hon. Sir James Mitchell: He cannot. Mr. PA'NTON: That is why I remained Mr. PANTON: He can. single so long. I love dogs and hares and Mr. Sampson interjected. I could watch horspracing all day and en- Mr. PANTON: If there is one thing from joy it without betting on it. I coursed dogs which I should like to discourage a young for many yeart without betting, and many man like the member for Swan, it is the other men have done the same. I do not game of poker. If I, not being a member know Mr. Watts. I have never met him of an aristocratic club, wished to engage in and amt not interested in him or in the com- a game of two-up, I should run the risk of pany that is being promoted. If a race- being taken by the shoulder, yanked off to horse or a trotter may be indulged in by 'i he coart and fined £10 or £15. If I an pre- man who can afford to buy him and train pared to pay my train fare and admission him, and to pay a boy to ride or drive him- charge to any of the proprietary race- taking the chance whether the boy rides or courses, I eon bet on any race -with a book- drives him properly-then, if I cannot [15 Novnxnzn, 1927.] 186186 afford a borse, 1 am surely entitled to buy or within half a pound. This prevents n~hat is tarmed fill1ing a dog before racing. and race a dog. Mr. North: You can do that under the In the next paragraph are set out the vari- Bill. ous penalties, and all the precautions taken Mr. 1'ANTON: There is not the same op- to prevent what is known in coursing par- portunity in this State as in Victoria for Janee as stuffing a dog so as, to prevent it going into the country and coursing hares. from wvinning a race. If Mrf. Watts had Mr. Lath am: And so you wkill have a tin given the matter five minutes' serious con- hare, will you? sideration before writing his pamphlet, ho would have seen the bearing of all these Mr. PANTON: I1 am quite satisfied that precautions; he would have recognised that if tin hare coursing starts and the law of such precautions would nlot be necessary to the land as to betting is brought into opera- p3revent a dog from winning a race if all tion-I do not think there is any doubt if: that was involved was the stake. I do not will be-the tin hare will not last long. The believe any member of this House is un- whippets do not carry much weight without sophisticated enough to believe that a man betting; they do not draw large crowdls is going to run a horse or a dog, or ride either in the metropolitan area or anywhere a bikeI or run himself, only for the stake. else in Western Australia without the Such a man is either running for a "nark," gambling element. or for bets, and not for the stake. No Mr. Mann: But whippet racing still goes doubt, if the stakes were sufficiently large On. a man might take the risk of filling his Mr. PANTON: Yes, and so does two-np, dog, because the owner does take a risk and so do all sorts of illegal gambling de- when hie fills his dog up with -water to pre- vices. It is all very well for the member vent it from winning. There is only one for Perth (31r. Mrann) to say the thing is reason for the precautions set out in the still carried on. If the chase of the tin hare pamphlet, and that is that the bets, not is still carried on-- the stake, will be worth running for. In Mr. Mann: You do not get my point. I rmy opinion Mr. Watts is quite honest wvhen say whippet racing is still carried on not- bie says that there is to be no betting on withstanding that there is no betting. tin hare courses and that all sorts of pre- Mr. PANTON: I would like to see Tin cautions will he taken against unfair run- liare coursing eqrried on without betting. In ning. But now comes a paragraph to which that case I would purchase a couple of grey- I take the vecry strongest exception- hounds as quickly as I could. I may men- When the dogs ore taken from the kennels, tion that I cannot afford a racehorse or a9 in full view of the public, they arc handled trotter. Mr. Watts claims that there are t1y incapacitateil retunemd soldiers, who parade them in colours around the racing track and certain things in favour of the tin hare. hack to the starting boxes, where the dogs H~e says-- are placed in separate compartments, so that A certain crowd put up the argument Vhint they, cannot fight. The returned men leave mechanical coursing cannot be run w.ithout the ground, and the race is run . . Now, betting. New, that is absolutely wrong; there every ground which is opened in Western Aus- is no aced for betting nt all; the sport is both tralia can employ 25 incapacitated returned clean and fast and good to watch. I claim isoldiers, and as the Returned Soldiers' Asso- that, with hurdle and steeple-chasing, with ciation cannot find employment for these treble jumps in different parts of the course special eases on account of the loss of limb or it is both spectacular and interesting, limbs, it is going to be a big thing to these unfortunate mien .. There is a good deal of this, and I will It is most remarkable not read it all. Hf6wever, he proceeds- that no matter who the individual or what the company desir- 31 you desire to cou-rse a dog -you have to ous of boosting something may be, if it register it with the controlling body 14 days before it can race. Pedigree, markings, etc., is possible to drag in the poor old returned arc registered. It is weighed by the veterin- soldier, that is done. I as a returned soldier ary surgeon, who is the main figure in mech- take the strongest exception to this country, anical hare coursing. A swvab is taken, also the dog is thoroughly examined to see that it or for that matter any other country, but is a healthy dog. After that is done, the this country especially, introducing a tinpot owner takes his dog away home. The week dog- race and having to parade the poor before it is raced, it is again brought to the un1fortunate incapacitated returned soldiers veterinary surgeon, and again weighed and tested;- and if the dog weighs 70 lbs., that is to do it. I hope that if Mr. Watts sends the weight is must be tbe night of the race, out another circular, it will not contain state- 1862 1862ASSEMBLY.] meats of this nature. I shall not support the The avenues of gambling that exist in ou Bill. My reason for opposing it is not the midst are numerous; and this fact is to th :source from which it comes, or its intro- detriment, not partjflgularly of grown-upE ducer. Mly reason is that if a man wants to but of the younger generation. At Whit race a dog, he has the right to do so. He City and other places of that descriptioi cannot race after hares in this country. may be seen boys and girls of tender year Member: Better import some hares. indulging in various forms of gambling Mr. PANTON: We do not want to im- There may be no harmn in tin hare raciul port hares. I am satisfied that tin hare itself. Someone has stated that no hettiui racing can be a good clean sport if people will be allowed on tin hare courses, but a are prepared to race for stakes; but that present we do not know whether that it spectacle without betting will not draw be so or not. We do know, hoee, tha crowds of 30,000. 1 shall be prepared to the promoters of the tin hare racing coin put up a fight at any time for the preven- panies arc prepared to gvve an nndertaki: tion of betting on tin hare or any other that they will not allow any betting in eon courses. Betting has proved the bane or neetion with the sport. But, as the memnbe the downfall of every sport. In England a for Meuzies (Mr. Panton) has stated, it ii gentleman told me that the only race that impossible to keep betting out of any sport .had not been ruined by betting was the It matters not what the sport may be, bet Oxford-Cambridge boat race, and he added, ting eventually creeps into it somehow oi "We will never let the Australians get into other. It is my opinion that if tin han that, because they will wont to back them- racing is begun here, the younger geuciratiot selves.' There is no betting on that boat wvill be afforded an easily accessible avcnu, race, and it is a genuine race. Betting has to embhark upon a gambling career. Manj ruined bicycle racing, foot racing, and every years ago the Government of this State adi other kind of sport into which man-power a definite announcement that street bettiu, enters. The position is much the same t- would not be tolerated; yet to-day there i' day as regards football, though I will not not a well-frequented street corner when add as regards cricket or bowls. In street betting may not be seen on Saturda] the last case perhaps the old men afternoon. The Government gave that un playing the game have got beyond betting. dertaking, and it has not been fulfiIled up th Football, however, is becoming more coni- 'late. Probably that is not the Government'! miereinlised every day. Only a few weeks fattlL The fault no doubt lies chiefly will ago I saw a man take a bet of £60 to £40 the Australian's instinct which prompts kin on one local match, If a backer can get to have his little bet on everythin. Since such a bet, and possibly get it twice over, in spite of the Government's pronoulncment is he not prepared to try to obtain a bold street betting has not been stopped, wha, on one of the players, though I do not say possible chanice is there of preventing bet. lie would succee-d in his atttnpt9 ting in connection with tin hare racing7 PI THen. G. Taylor: There is something doing we are to have tin hare racig, by far th( when such bets are made. preferable course would be to let bettiru Mr. PANTON: Human nature has to be be carried on openly, in the sune way n taken into account whether with a jockey on it has practically been legalised at gallopi the back of a homse or a player in a football and trots. jersey. The whole subject, f repeat. is re- Mr. Sleetnan: It is not legal. plete with hypocrisy; but I cannot resist the Mr. RICHARDSO'N: I am aware of that principle that a poor man shall be at liberty Still, it would be better to have registerce to race a dog just as a rich man races a bookmakers at tin hare racing than to allom horse. the wagers there to be taken by some of those who indulge in sly betting, and who MR. RICHARDSON (Subiaco) [5.40]: I if their losses are considerable, are not par. say at the outset that I support the Bill. tieular about scaling pun~ters. If tin liar( No one will. accuse me of being of the wowser racing is to be permitted in Western Ans. type at all, hut I have a strong objection Lralia, then I personally would rather ae( to allowing the introduction into Western the registered bookmaker on tin bare course, Australia of anything that will tend to bring than the men who probably will bet undei about more gambling. Looking around to- the lap. For many years our floverinmenh day we see every imaginable invention emi- and our people have been using their besi ployed in order that gambling may continua'. endlenvonrs to develop Western Australia (15 Novniaza, 1927.1]86 1863

On the one hand we are endeavou ring to tion of the so-called sport. We are not enrich the coutry by development and taking away from the tin fare companie-i greater production, and on the other hand anything that they have. We are simply it is proposed, in effect, that anyone is to saying to them, "We are not doing you any be allowed to come along and start a thing injury because you have not yet invested which must prove derogatory to this great anything- in Western Austrulia ; we are not State, In this way the community loses taking anything from you, but we are goin.- wealth, which flows into wrong channels, to see that you are not going to take any- Western Australia's developmkeut being re- thing from as, by refusing to permit you a'cted upon injuriously. It is -well-known to conduct tin hare racing." I love horseas that in practically every sport there is bet- and I love dogs, but I love human nature ting to-day. I personally see no particuolr better than either, and I am looking at this sport in tin hare racing. Indeed, I fail co question from the human point of view, see where the clement of sport coimes in. from the young people's point of view. Wej Mr. Fenton: Have you ever seen dog rac- find that this matter of tin hare racing hais ing? created more interest in Wvstvrm Australiai Mr. RICHARDSON: in South Austral'61 than perhaps any other subject during the I reared a greyhound named "Mozart," whi5 1i past 10 or 12 years. We find that not only won two Waterloo cups in succession and have the churches offered strong- opposition was runner-up in the third. to it, but wherever we go the business peop"i- Mr. Fenton: 1)id you back At9 are decrying it. They say that too much Mr. RICHARDSON: The descendaits. of' money is going into the wrong channels, that dog "M1ozart"' are to-day being run in and quite recently, as the member for Fre- coursing matches iii both Victoria and Soith mantle knows, the Business Mlen's Associa- Australia. tion of Fremantle raised a very strong pro. Mr. Fanton: Did you ever back "Mlozart' test against White City and other miove- in the Waterloo cup? ments of that description. Mr. RICHARDSON: Nn. I reared the Mr. Sleeman: But they do not spcatz dog for a gentleman named Bubble and he for me. won £900 in bets over the first Waterloo Mir. RICHARDSON- No, but the hon. Cup in which the dog competed. member knows that thp protest was actually Mr. Lamond: 1)id not Nou get anything made. The business people throughout the out of it? metropolitan area, as well as those at Fre- Mr. RICHARI)SON: No. Anyhow thatb mantle, are crying out aloud about the in- is merely by thc way. The member for crease in gambling and the facilities that Mlenzies imagines that lie is the only one are being offered for it. We know that in whou has ever owned a greyhound. Western Australia to-day money is tightir Mr. Fenton: 'Not at all, but I have never than it has been for many years past. bred a Waterloo Cup winner. Mr. Panton: Tin hares trill loosen a lot Mr. RICHARDSON: I looked upon it of it. as a sport-that is, opeii cotfraing. In Mr. RICHARDSON: Tin hare racing those days there was open connzing and one may have the effect of still further tighten- had to travel miles aind milezi before lie put ing the position, and also affecting the up a bare, and there was wimething in that finances of the State. sport that thrilled one as a young fellow. Mr. Clydesdale: Rubbish! It is quite an easy matter to say that we3 Mr. RICHARDSON: The hon. member should allow ever-yone to ha-ve their own knowvs that what I am sanying is correct. sport and in the way they desire. Looking There should not be any locking up of at it superficially, that seems quite right. money in Western Australia, but unfor- But there is another side to the question, tunately there is, and there is a reason for and when we look around we find all our it. I do not wish to latbour the question. laws arc restricti've to a greater or lesser In my opinion, immediately we start tin degree. It is for us, as representatives cf hare racing, betting will follow. the people, to say whether tin hare racing Mr. Corboy: Wbiy not be consistent and is going to be derogatory or not to our stop the whole lot of them. State, and if we believe it is going to be Mr. RICHARDSON: If the hon. mem)- derogatory, we arc justified in voting far ber will introduce a Bill of that sort, I wi!l the Bill before is to prevent the introdue- give it due consideration. 1864 864[ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. Corboy: Will you support it? if the people associated with tin hare rae Mr. RICHARDSON: W,. have interjec- into were applying for permission to con tions "Why don't you do this and wh:y duet races with equines, I would suppor don't you do that?" Why does not the lhon. them. Tin hare racing, however, has per member do something? 1niciots effects, and if we can take any notio Mr. Corboy: Will you stipport tue it 1 ot what has ocurred in New South Wales, wi do? shall be foolish to permit it to be introduce 31r. RICHARDSON: I wvill give it due in Western Australia. We should do all wi consideration just as I do to everything tan to prevent, by legislation1 its being else. started in our midst. M1r. Corboy: You supported a Bill to Mr. &'anton: Then we might get tn increase the number of trotting meetings, horses. and therefore you supported facilities to ion. G. TAYLOR: I am not going t( increase gambling. support this form of racing. Whaerever ii Mr. RICHARDSON: T am not quite has been tried there is overwhelming tesi sure that I did. moity from everybody, except those in thi Mr. Corboy: You dlid; ;look it up. business, that it has an evil effect on th( Mr. RICHARDSON: Whether I did or community. did not, trotting is a reecogniked sport. Mr. Corboy: It is all right for Brennan MR. CHESSON (Cue) [5.55]: It is m3 and his satellites, but wrong for anyonh:. intention to vote against the Bill. Ganiblint else. is. permitted on racecourses and at the trot. Mr. RICHARDSON:- I strongly object ting course, and I do not see why it shouki1 to anyone's name being mentioned in tho not be allowed in connection with mechani* discussion because the opportunity to reply cal hare racing. I realise that the Criminal is not given. Whatever Mr. Brennan may Code prohibits betting in connection witV be, or what he may not be, does not enter horse racing, trotting, or any other form oJ into the discussion respecting tin hare rae. sport, but it is possible for any person t( ing. So far as I am aware M-r. Brennan go to a race meeting and bet with impunity. is a thorough gentleman and, moreover, be Why, we permit bookmakers to be regis is not the only one interested in racing, he tered, and we have the totalisator in ordci it trotting or any other form of racing. A to encourage people to indulge in gambling man may have opinions on certain subjects Wh~y do people go to racecourses? Solely and because he expresses them freely for one object and that is to bet. Moreover, through the Press is no reason why we in do we not levy a tax on every betting ticket this House should endeavour to belittle him. that is issued by the bookmaker to his elient I I am not going to say anythidng further ex- A lot of people take an interest in coursing cept to express the hope that members who and others prefer different forms of sport. are opposed to the Bill will give their There arc -those who patronise horse racing reasons for voting against it, just as mem- only, whilst others like trotting, cycle meet- bers who are supporting it will advance ings, and even pedestrianism. Why should arguments in its favour. patrons of these various sports be denied the opportunnity to derive enjoyment from NOW. G1. TAYLOR (Mount Margaret) them? Why, also, should they ho prevented [5.53]: It is my intentiont to snpport the from having a little betting transaction if it second reading of the Bill. We know there is their desire to do sot It is remarkable are certain provisions contained in the Crim- to find the intense interest that the trotting inal Code that prevent gambling taking people have taken in the proposed intro- place, but notwithstanding those powers we duction of mechanica] hare racing. We re- are unable to prevent gambling. All one alise, of course, that if the mechanical hare has to do is to walk down what is looked is introduced, the sport will take away many upon as the most respectable thoroughfare of the patrons from the trotting course, and in the city-St. George's-terraeir.-and be it will make a good deal of difference to the will find, at any time of the day, while income of the Trotting Association. If we there is racing going on in any part of Aus- arc sincere about gambling and its pro- tralia as well as in our own State, it is pos- hibition, why do we not enforce the law? sible to mnake a bet. I do not ltnow that If we enforced the law we should have to there is a great deal of barns in betting, and prohibit betting in connection with sport of [15 NoVEMBE!!, 1927.] all kinds. The Bill says "Racing by or be- MR. MANN (Perth) [6.3]: The whole tween animals other than horses." I sup- argument against tin hare racing has been pose the member for Mt. Margaret (lifon. Uf. on the ground of the betting that is likely Taylor) will remember the early days on to be associated with it. The betting laws the goldfields, when, associated with horse iii this State are wide enough and comnpre- racing there were camel and donkey races, liensive enough to prohibit betting on any ad even goat races at times. There woa s-cet in any place whatsoever. The Bill is races between as much interest taken in th~e an admission. that we are incapable of en- ,camels, donkeys and goats as between the forcing the law of the land when we say horses. There is still considerable interest bie- that tin ]rare eorsing cannot be carried ing taken in pedestrian races. This form of on sport continues to attract aittention at Mcii- ,without betting. Section 211 says- Iowa, and even without betting. Book- Any lhouse or room or any place what so- makers are not permitted to ply their ever which is used for ally of the purposes calling on the recreation ground where the following, that is to say-(1) For the purpose of bets beiing mande therein between persons re- sp~orts are held, and in spite of that fact the sorting to thle place; or (2) For the purpose pedestrian races are Ilourishing there, so of hots being made therein between persons much so that the priac mioney is being in- resorting to the. place, and (a) the ownerf, creased, and the entries are greater occupier, or keeper of the place, or any per- Non -than they have ever been. The State using the place, or (b) any person pro- cared or employed by or acting for or on be- derives considerable revenue from bet- half of ally suc-h owner, uecuipier, or keeper or ting, not only from the totalisator but person using thle place; or (e) any persons iroin the bookmnaker on the racecourse. laaVing the care or management, or in any manlier conducting the business Why should we lie hypocrites? We draw of the place; or (3) Vor the purpose of aniy mroney or other -revenue from the different raceconvees and property being paid or received therein by or trotting grounds, and from licensed book- oin behalf of any such owner, occupier, or makers. We also draw revenue through keeper or person using the pintce as or for the consideraltion; (d) for anr assurance, un- Tattersalls. These people have started a dertaking, promise or agreemient, express or company. No doubt some of the money that implied, to pay or give thereafter any money ar other property on ny event of contingency would be in circulation in other channels -will of or relating to any horse race, or other race, be put into this venture- People should he figiht, game, sport, or exeise; or (e) for allowed to invest their money where they scuring the paryillg or giving by some other person of any mioney or other property on ay like. Persons who are interested in other such event or contingency; is called a commnon avenues, however, have been instrumental in betting-house. Any person who opens, keeps bringling, down this Bill, and are endeavour- -3r uses a common btting house is guilty of amisdemneanour, and is liable to imprison- iug to -restrict the remainder of the people. il1loat writh hardt labour for tlhree years; or be They seem to think that a lot of money will may be sumnnarily convicted before two jus,- go into this new chanel. that should be tices, in which -v hie is liable to imprison- at-i.l, with har.4 labour for six months, or to a available to go into other channels. Seeing fille tof £I10. Airt.% p,*rson wilo, being tile ownecr that we allow horseracing and trotting. I do or c..cnpier of ml-Aivihose, room or place. know- not see why tin hare racing should not also inigly and wilfully permits it to be opened, kept or used as a common bettinig-house by any be allowed. Why have a close reserve for other person, or who Ilas the use or Manage- horse racing end trotting-? The way should mnent, or assists in conducting thle business of be left open for the promoters of tin hare acommon betting-Ewue; is guilty of an of- Fence, anti is liable on summnary conviction coursing. They wvill be providing for a tn imprisonment with hard labour for six form of amusement for people who care foi- months, or to a fine of £100. that sort of thing,, but who may not cart' Surely the law is clear enough and definite for other forms of sport. In the mining enough to prevent betting. It oniy requires districts of New South Wales every "GOeordie"' had his coursing dog. The men to be admninistered. Time was when betting (lid did not take much interest in horse racing, take place on foot ari bicycle racing, but when it came to quoit matches or cours- but, immediately the law was puit into op- ing they were particularly interested. T oration, foot racing from a commercial like horse racing, but I see no reason for point of view, as well as bicycle racing from denying the wants of other sections of the tile same point of view, ceased tolemst. To- community, who may prefer to get their day, however, we still have both kinds of sport through coursing or tin bare racing. races. There are -road races for bicycles 1866 1860[ASSEMBLY.]

every Saturday afternoon, conducted by thle to the capacity of my income. T cannot amateur cycle clubs of the State. g"amble as much as I might like to. I know ,11r Sampson: By the League of \Vcetcrn well that there is a limit to my capacity Autsia-lian heelmen. in that respect. I am, therefore, compelled ol.' necessity to keep my betting transactions.- as bi- Mr. MIAqN: Foot racing as well within certain bounds. vccle racing is conducted by authorised MLvr.Clydesd ale: So are most people. bodies. ft is not now carried on ats it was somec years ago ider electric light, for comn- HUon. W. D. JOHNSON: That is the way inercial purposes. Betting on -whippet rac- that most People look at it. Australians are ing was prohibited, hut we still have whip- gamnblers. I think every one Of us6 likes to pet raves almost every'v Saturday afternoon. gamble. As to whether a person can give Whippet race mieetings are conduceted by fuill scope to his desires, is a matter for himI to determine. We hare to take into con- those who enjoy that form of sport, and 110 sidera hon our personal capacity to nie' lbetting takes place there. it is a matter of ouir obligations with respect to our desires. the authorities decidinig that there shall be Just as it is necessary for us as inividuals no betting, end no betting occurs. to consider these limitations, so it is nece- Hfon. .W. fl. Johnson:- You would not like sary for the Government to study the point to guarantee that there is no betting. Of view of the public and see to what extent Mr. M1ANN\: There is whippet racing at the State should go. The State has its MUaylands, and in the lion. mnember's elec- limitations just as much as the individual torate every Saturday afternoon. I do not has. T submit that Western Australians to- thiukl there is any betting in conjuinction day have full oDpportunities for indulging in -with it. Tf there is, it does not amount to that gambling which goes to make up por- much. tion of our national life. We derive a good Mr. Panton: It does nut affect the imm- deal of enjoyment from our gambling trans- her of those who go to church. notions. There is full scope for us to enjoy Hon. W. D. Johnson: The Jaw has a re- ourselves in that way without any further extension of the opportunity. I straining effect. am there- fore supporting the Bill. In the public in- Mr. MANN: We know from experience terests we should not encourage other forms-, that when the law was pat into operation, of sport of this kind, especially when it ik betting very largely ceased on these forms recognised by those who have taken some of sport. It is a question for th~e Govern- interest in the matter that tin hare' raciag ment. as to whether betting 41hould or should has very little to commend it from the spec- not be prohibited altogether, and transac- tacular point of view. It is not at all RI tions of that kind confined to the totalisator. entertaining sport unless hetting is asso- Governments have decided that under pro- ciated with it. No doubt it will attract for per control such as with t W.A.T.C and the a given time. So far as wve know, tin hare W.A. Trotting Association, betting on horse coursing has attracted crowds elsewhbere be- racing and trotting may Le permitted. There cause there is betting associated with it. always is a certain amount of gambling. For Mr. Ohesson: It has flourished elsewhere. that reason it has been decided that it should Hon. W. D. JOHN1SON: I understand be permitted, tinder the control of the gov- that is so, but its success has beena due to truing bodies. If tin hare racing cannot the facilities offered for betting on the re- live -without betting, and the authorities; sults. We have to assume that the patron- decide to enforce the betting laws, that age accorded to it is due to the fact that sport wvill cease to exist. The Bill -is narrow people have been able to bet their shillings in its present form, and is not necessary. or pounds as the case may be. Vzr. Lindsay: Are you supporting it? Mrt. Mann: That is not 'the ease in Eng- Mr. MANN: I am not supporting the land. Bill. Honr. W. D. JOHNSON: I do not know. I have only read what has been submitted HON. W. D. JOHNSON (Guildford) to us from those who have viewed the matter [6.10]: The Bill should be considered from from the aspect of an Australian. I have the point of view in whifhh we all regard seen cablegrams from the Old Country pub- g4ambling. We arc all marc or less gamb- lished in the Press, but do not think we can lers. I plead guilty to being one myself, draw any definite conclusions f rom. that but T ind it neessary to Pmnt my gambling source. Cablegrams are not always reliable. [15 Novnmlrn, 1927.] 1867

I like more definite infonmation than that Allow betting on horse races, but they are on matters of this kind. All I know about instructed to prohibit betting on foot races. the matter is what I have read in the news- Mr. Chesson: Do you say that is right? papers, and they do not always put for- Hon. W. D3. JOHNSON: That attitude ward the facts. To-day we have quite suffi- is endorsed by public opinion and there- cient sport in Western Australia to meet fore I say it is right. I have no hesitation the public need. The question is whether in making that assertion. No Government tin hare coursing is justified. The question have any right to enforce a law that is eon- whether we should give the same rights to trary to public amibition and desire. Such tin hare racing as is enjoyed by horse rac- laws have, to be used with discretion. The ing or trotting is beside the mark. We know law%in Western Australia is drartic and it wecll that betting takes place with regard remains on the statute-book merely because both to horse racing and trotting. it has been used by successive Governmonis with due discretion. While the Criminal Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m. Code gives wide powers to the Government, it has a restraining influence regarding the Hon. W. D3. JOHNSON: Just before the high moral tone, if I may use that phrase tea adjournment I was pointingr out that iii regard to betting, in so far as those wvi the extent of crime associated with gamb- airc permitted to do that which the Criminal ling is mainly caused by the extent of bet- Code says is illegal, must do it in such a way ling in comparison with the capacity of the as to maintain public support and demand. individual to pay. If a poor man attempts Probalbly many hon. members attend th~e to gamble in proportion to the betting races. I often get a good deal of en- transacted by a rich man, then it becomes joymnent from the sport. I heard the mem- a crime, because the poor man injures not ber for Menzies (Mr. Panton) speak abovt only himself but others, and therefore it is his love for his dog. I love horses just as wrong. So long as the man gambles within well as the member for Menzies loves his his capacity to pay, then, while it is illegal, dog. I have been guilty of betting on horse- it is generally recognised as part of the racing. When we go to the races we must rigt f idiiduals to do so. Some argue he struck with the high, moral tone existing that because we allow gambling to be recog- amiongs-t bookmakers. In ordinary commer- nised by the State, although it is illegal, cial and financial circles it would 1)0 impos- there should be no restriction placed upon sible to transact business as it is done on it. That would be contrary to public policy the racecourses. In business circles there and to the Criminal Code, which sets out must be legal documents; they must be definitely that gambling is illegal. Betting- stamped: everything must be reduced to on horseracing and on trotting events is writing. There is practically no such tbing against the law of the land, hut wveek after as a moral agreemlent between individuals in week successive Governments have collected the commercial and financial world. When it a certain amount of revenue through permit- comes to betting on racecourses, however, a ting to be done that which is illegal. That mere nod of the head or a gesture to a book-- is done only because that action is within the maker is sufficient for an individual to enter scope of public opinion, which agrees that into a contract with him by which the book- a certain amount of gambling is justified maker will pay him certain Moneys in the and that it is necessary to afford some out- event of certain results. That goes on week let for the public desire in that direction. after week. I do not know if there is ever* Successive Governments have bowed to any dispute regarding bets that arc made public opinion and they have said in effect, on racecourses. The money involved must "While the law gives us power to prohibit, run into hundreds of thousands of pounds. we will not do so because we believe that Yet we do not hear any outcry on the part public sentiment requires some latitude t(, of the people that they have not received a be displayed on this question." While we fair and just deal. The transactions are have adopted that attitude, it (loes not fol- run on a basis that enables them to be main- low that we should remove all limiitatiojm tained by public endorsement and public, upon betting. We do 'limit betting to-day. support. Take away the power of the State, We say to people, "You shall bet there, but however, to stop betting at once, and I ven- you must not bet elsewhere.' We say, too, ture the opinion that the high moral tone that people may bet on horses, but not on r allude to wvill not be present. References individuals. The police are permitted to .have been made' to the fact that at one time ISM 8113[ASSEMBLY.]

betting was permitted on foot races and Hot. W. D. JOHNSON: We know the cycle race;, but to-day it is prohibited. evil surrounding tin hare racing arises from Betting on those events was stopped becairr the gambling element. We are told by all public opinion demanded it. Why was that? the authorities that it does not flourish and is It was because it was not legally recognisePd not patronised where betting is not allowed, and was against the law. It was stopped as it does where betting is permitted. because there was not that proper control Mr. M1ann: Do you not think the Criminal exercised by the governingo authorities coa- Codo is gullicient to deal with the positioun? troling cycling and pedestrian races. Tule Hon. WV. D. JOHNSON: While I recog r~esult was that people could not bet oil cycle nise that the concession to public opinion events or foot races with the same deg-ree reg-arding betting ]nust be allowed, we' mnut of confidence as they can bet on horse races. limit the amount of betting wve ourselves dlo, Air. Corboy: You think people can be-L and just as the individual is restrieted, wi with confidence on horse races? it is logical for the Government to restrict. It it; the function of the Government to Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: Yes, from the limit anything of this kind-this p)oint Will standpoint that they know they will be paid appeal to the member for West Perth (iMr. should they win their bet. Davy)-if they feel that the public demand Mr. Otiesson: What about the jockeys? regarding gambling, is sufficiently. catered Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: I do not know for under existing conditions. i san told why the lion. member Wants to drag in side there is no comparison between ecursirug issues. We know horse racing is not as clean as was indulged in by the member for Me2,- as it might be, nor is trotting. That i't not zies and tin hare racing. Thle formner it- the argument. Surely hen, members. car, good healthy sport because there is the comn- follow the discussion without introdluci!A, petition between two aminali. rube (Iuetin such side iseuces. Betting- on foot racing and( i4 whether the hare canl beat the areyhIound~, cycling was not recognised by the State. Vii or whethe-r the greyhound can beat tile hare. desirable influences were brought to bear on Mr. Davy: It is thoroughly healthy sport those sports and all kinds of tactics wvere for the hare!I employe'd to give tile public the least pos- Mr. Panfan: Except that there is no hare sible chance to succeed. The result wras that in it at all! public opinion revolted and that mneant thit Hon. WV.D. JOHNSON: The position is the police Were instructed to wnppress betting that the hare has a chance to beat the dog, on foot racing and cycle events. Despite just as the dog has a chance to bent thehae the fact that we know that is thle recognised 1 agree that the chaaces are not altogether public policy, it has to be admitted that h'l'.* equal, but still there is ain element of fair ting does4 take place on foot racing andl competition between the two animals. Even cvcliidg events. It is a form of betting I should the dog- annihilate the hare, the latter would not participate in, but still we know has the satisfaction of knowing that it 'has it is done. The amount of betting is limited given the dog a good run andl made hin: and restricted because the opportunities for jolly tired. doing it are so confined]. That is because Mr. Davy: But the hare has to take on the the police are particularly active in the sup- competition whether it cares or not. pression of that form of gamabling. Coming Mr. Corboy: The competition is between down to tin bare racing, while we have this dog and dogr and not between dog and hart. form of gambling and know it is illegal, Mr. Fenton: That is so. it is wrong for lion. members to argue that Hon, W. D. JOHNSON: I admit that because we can bet on galpn otrtIg events we shonld also permnit unrestricted the hare has to compete against the doz, betting in connection with tin hare racing. whether it cares or not. Tt is recognised that just as we hatve to cbaere a bullock or Mr. Panton: No one has argued aloe;p a sheep for our needs, so the dogz has to those lines. chase a hare for his needs. Of course, the Mr. Mann: Yen have been dealing with dog has, become a domnestic animlal and so, betting all the time and that is not mentioned in chasing a bullock -or a sheep for our in the Bill. own] needs, we also chase it for the dngs Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: I recog-nise that, needs. Nature has provided that the dog but- shall have the ambition to catch the hare, Mr. North: It is common sense. and so he catche5 it for his needs. [15 Nov~ina!!, 1927.)86 1869

Hon. W. J. George: 'When did nature lies in his opportunity to catch the hart. provide that a dog should chase a piece f The hon. member gets his satisfaction be- galvanised iron?7 cause his dog happens. to catch the hama Hon. W. D, JOHNSON. It is natural while the other fellow's dlog misses. But. for the clog to ehase a hare for his need%, the member for Menzies, if hoe has any love just as, it is necessary for um to chase the for his dogs, would not put a dogr on to a bullock or the sheep for our needs. There coursing track and run himi merely for this fore the dog takes a delight in chasing tho sake of runnin-run. him after a tin con- hare, and the hare takes a delight in es- trivance that the dog- conld never catch. caping from the dog. .I maintain that whi',u The dog enters upon an impossible ta-sk the dog chases the hare, the hare gets a night after night. great deal of satisfaction vLat of defeatin';, The Premier: It is not fair to the dog. the dog-. Hon. W.. D. JOHNSON. It is not. I Mr. North: There is 310 doubt about am arguing from the dog'% point of view. that. It is not fair to the dog. How long would Hon. W. 0). JOHNSON: The membr'r members chase a bullock or a sheep if they for Mcnzies. (Mr. Panton) complains thnt were going to miss every time? They might more often than not the hare succeeds and continue trying within iimits, but they the dog does not. would soon get weary wheu fler found thcv Mr. Pardon: It is a competition between could not accomplish the impossible. Why two dogs. The hare is only incidental should we ask dogs to try nght after night Eon. W. D. JOHNSON: The fact re- to gallop round a course, attempting the mains that it is also a competition between impossible, when we know they will never the dog and the bare, and the dog has an succeed? The only satisfaction is- the know- opportunity to succeed. Let us come to tin ledge that one dog will get nearer to the hares. I am told that the clog has no on- hare than will another. It is a vile form porhinity at a!1. that it never does succeed of gambling, a form that might be popular in catching the hare. with the Australian public for a limitei Mr. Mann: That doesn't matter. time, but will never last. Tt is not the kind Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: But it does of gambling the Australian rejoices in. He matter. Let me reason this from the dog's likes to see fair competition, where every point of view. The membei for Mcenzie' competitor has an opportunity to reach thc went out on his connsing expredition. He goal. In this so-called spert there is no took his dog and looked for a hare. He opportunity to reach the goal. The dog gave to his dog an opportunity to success. can never aecomplish what he sets out to fully compete against the hare. The hon. do. So I maintain that from the dog's member got delight in that. He said it was point of view we ought to s~ipport the Bill- a form of sport that he followed, and from Mr. Mann: According to your argument. which be got a great deal of enjoyment. pigeon shooting ought to be limited to live But when it comes to a tin hare, the dog birds. There ought to be no dummies. never has an opportunity to succeed. Cer- Heon. W. D. JOHNSON- No, for the tainly it has a chance of beating the other shooter gets the satisEaetion of hitting dog; but how long are dogs going to n something, whether it be alive or dlead. The and be actually keen on the work if they dog sets out to catch something, but the have no opportunity to succeed? Could the man gets to work with his tin contrivance member for Menzies get t.he same delight and says to the dog, "Although you may out of putting a dog on a course and sool- think you can accomplish it, you never ing him on to a tin contrivance that lie will." knows perfectly well the dog -will never Mr. Latham: A rman would never shoot catch? at a pigeon if it were so placed that ha Mr. Panton: I back my dog's spec-I could not possibly bit it. against another dog's speed. Hon. W. 17. JOHNSON: No, be sets out Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: The dog could to accomplish something, and sometimes he get no satisfaction from the fact that the succeeds, whereas in this tin hare racing the bon. member might get a reward throughj dog can never succeed. Again, I ask members his dog catching the hare first. The dog whethe~r we Should introduce into Western wonld not get the same satitfaction as that Australia more does. Have we not got quite, of the hon. member- The dog's satisfaction enough in our country to.-day? To me a most 1810 810(ASSEMBLY.] objectionable sight is to see ladies walking, it. It makes one sad to see ladies nursing along, carrying dogs. We should not en dogs. I sat behind two ladies in a tramn courage people to foster a Jove of dogs, pos- within the last few days. They were beam- sibly to the exclusion of humnan beings. We ing at one another and discussing the eyes can overdo the introduction of dogs and the of a dog they had, and the make up of its encouragement of the public to take an inter- face, and what a kind look it had. There est in them. Many dogs arc of no value-- wvas more enthusiasm over that dog in that especially the coursing dog. Consider to tramn than I have ever known over any child. what base uses dogs are put. We often see flon. WV.J. George: Pe-rhaps they had ladies with decorated dogs at the end of a. no kids of their owvn. chain and being dragged along the streets. Hion. W. Di. JOHNSON: Well, there are Some of those ladies arc more careful about plenty of other people's children to take an the risk of their dogs being a over than interest in, and if they want to nurse some- he in respect of children in per- they would thing, let theni nurse a child. The kangaroo awibulators. We do not require to encourage dog, is a mienace to Western, Australia. The a p)ublic love of dogs to any greater extent Nrurst kind of animial we have in our pas- than it exists. to-day. What we require to toral and ag-ricultural areas are the crosses encourage is a class of dog that is going to between kangaroo dogs and others. They be of some use to the community. The cours- arc at meniace, and the coursing greyhound ing greyhound is of no use to the community. is of that type. So I say that from a puhlic The community does not want it, and has point of view we should not enco*urage im- never asked that it should be introduced into portations of this d!ass of dog. We have the State in greater numnbeiss for the purpose too many of themi already, and we do not of meeting some public need. Yet these dogs, want any more of them. Apart fromn the we are told, are to be brought into this gainbhIing that is associated with the Bill, it is State in large numbers for the purpose of nut fair to the dogs to bring them here. tin hare racing. The public has miade no They have to try to accomplish the imipos3- demand for those dlogs, hut they are of sible. The dog, too, is of a kind that does commercial interest and they afford all not aippeal to the general public and is of opportunity to make profits. Certain men 110 ;aluc to the people. There :s already get together and say, "We will promote a plentyv of scope for the people to give vent vompany, not to supply a public demiand, to their gamnbling desires, and we do not but to make a profit out of this so-calledI want to increase it. Just as an individual has sport." I say it is wrong to encourage that to imit his desires in that respect, it is the kind of thing, to encourage the importation junction of government limit the tempta- of dogs. The most useless kind of dog- and to the greatest cur is the kangaroo dog. tions of tire public in the same direction. Mr. Mann: It provided Ihe hack country The State has an obligation to its people andi with meat for years. the State should exercise that obligation, cluly recognisiag that there is ample oppor- Hon. W. D. JOHINSON : It is not tunity, for gambling to-day without the in- elass of dog to which anybody becomes at- troduction of this undesirable kind of tached. It is used only because it is re- so-called sport. I shall support the seeon4 quired for tfie catching of food for human reading with the object of doing something beings. to discourage those who would endeavour to Mr. Davy: Yet you say be is a most introduce tin hare racing for personal gain. useless kind of dog! I am not in love with the Bill. I candidly Hon. W. D. JOHNSON:- Yes, for any adroit that I do not understand Clause 2. other purpose than that of kangaroo hunt Mr. North - Perhaps it could be im- ing. But you find the kangaroo dog inl proved. I laes where there are no kangaroos to be lRon. WV.D. JOHNSON: One has to look hunted. Some people seem to desire to breed ait it closely to discover it,; meaning. I have a kind of animal of no advantage whatever not done that, but I shall support the sec- to the community. ond reading, in the hope that the Committee Member: You would have a dogless Slate. stage will be delayed so that I may have an Ron. W. D. JOHNSON: T have no objert. opportunity to examine Clause 2 closely. tion to people keeping a dog. There is n If I find it means that tin hare racing shall dog in my own home and we are all very he discouraged in this State, it will have my fond of it, but we have no desire to nurse support in Committee. I cvonsider that tin [15 NOVEMBER, 1927.J 1871

hare racing is not necessary, that it will a suh-departinet-to inspect all kinds of tend to demoralise the people, and that we as spiort. rThe Commissioner of Police should guardians of the public welfare are justified lie asked to appoint one of his inspectors to in protecting the people against this form of keep an eye, not only on racing and trotting, so-called sport. hut on football and all other kinds of sport. 11r. J. AaeCallum Smith: They would MR. ANGELO (Gascoyne) [8.2j: The- have to appoint another mani. miember for Guildford (Hon. W1.D. John- Mr. ANGELO: No, the inspector would son) at the beginning of his speech took us be already employed by the Government. into his confidence by telling us lie was a Mr. J. %fachalum Smith : Then lie would gambler. 1, too, intend to take the House be doing nothing at present. into my confidence, but let me inform mem- MAr. ANGELO: If it were necessary to hers that 1 am opposed to gambling. The put on an extra than, let the sporting bodies member for Guildford qualified his remarks contribute to his salary. by saying he believed in gambling only to Mr. Panton: Spotting bodies would be the extent that a person can afford to in- likely to contribute to the salary of a man dulge in it. 1 likewise modif 'y my convic- like that! tion by stating that while I am opposed to Mr. ANGELO: We need to have our vari- gambling, I would not try to prevent ganib- ous sports inspected. lin.- of every description. I believe that Air. E. B. Johnston: You would want a people who ean afford to gamble for mod- few dozen inspectors. erate sums have a right to do so, even The Minister for Mines: Cannot you sug- though gambling is against the law of the gest a scheme to make it easier to pick win- State. This Bill is designed to prevent ners? another form of sport that must be associ- Mr. ANGELO: The Minister shows that ated with gambling. lbe is not a true gambler; he wants to be Mr. Marshall: Why say it must be asso- certain that he is going to win. If we had ciated with gambling? T here is no mention ain inspector to do this work, he might re- of gambling in the measure. (mire assistance. He would attend each race Mr. ANGELO: The conduct of the sport mnetin-- in other parts of the world proves conclu- Mr. Mann: Would one inspector do? sively that it is allied not only to gmbling Mr. Chesson: Would you put him with but to excessive gambling. I do not object the stewards to watch the racingl to tin bares, but I am afraid of the ptomaine Mir. ANGELO: That would not be at all poisoning. necessary. He could perform his duties Mr. Withers; This Bill deals with tin better if he were away from the stewards. hares, not tinned dog. Mr. Panton: You go to a sports%meeting Mr. Mann: Do not you think the Criminal and ti-v to make a bet and you will find he Code is strong enough to suppress gamub- is already there. lingi Mr. ANGELO: I am alluding to all forms of sport. Let him go to football matches Mr. ANGELO: It is, but while I am not mid, if he finds that gambling is being a gambler I should be sorry to see all gamub- Parried no, he should prevent it. ling in a medium way by people who can Mr. Marshall: What about the race- afford it suppressed. I like to see people courses? going to the races and putting their modest Mr. ANG.ELO: Constables avre present at £l or 10s. on the totalisator-. the races and they know what the member AMr. Mann: If the Government decided to for Perth is nointing out, Rnmely', that there put the law into operation against tin hare is a law against gambline. But they know racing, that would stop the gambling. perfectly Well that the Government of the Mr. ANGELO: .1 know from the utter- dayv do not want the law enforced. ances of the Premier that the Government Mr. Sleeman: No Government would want are opposed to excssive gambling. They. it enforced. as responsible men, realise that gambling to Mr. ANGELO: That is so. I do not think excess is had for the State. At the same it would he possible to get n Government time they do not wish to suppress gambling who would say that all gambling should be entirely. I suggest the time has come when suppressed. At the samne time I doubt the Government should appoint a nmn-not whether there is a member of the H~ouse who 1872 [ASSEMBLY.] would not agree with mue that gambling has I an afraid we shall have still more gamb- to he controlled and kept within the limits ling. Therefore I shall support the second of a person's income. That is necessary for reading. economic reasons. Mr. Chesson: Who is to tell what a per- MR. DAVY (West Perth) [8.12): It son's income is? seems to me it does not matter in the slight- Mr. ANGELO: Let me give an instance. est degree whether the measure is passed, A friend of mine, attending a race meeting, because it will not make any difference un- went to a bookmaker and asked, "How much less the Government are going to enforce it. so-and-so?" The reply wvas, "Three to one.", At present -we have on the statute-book a My friend said, "What nonsense!" The perfectly good piece of legislation that en- ables the Government to suppress gambling bookmaker said, "I will give you ten to one, twenty to one." soa far as they are able to suppress any infringement of the law. Mr. Moan: Oh, go on! In some respects, for what reason seems to be irrelevant to Mr. ANGELO: If my friend had not enter into now, they do not attempt to en- known something, he wvould hove been taken torce the law with resp-,et of some kinds down at three to one. of gambling carried on in this State. This Mr. J. Maecallum Smith: Why not have Bill has nothing to do with gambling and Government bookmakers? I see no guarantee, if it becomes law, that Hon. G. Taylor: Bookmaking will be a the Government will enforce it. trading concern by-and-bye. Mr. Latham: You say it has nothing to Mr. AN\GELO: Some steps should be do with gamhling9 taken to control gambling. Mr. DAVY: Yes. ITT. Mann: It i% controlled to-day and 31r. Mann: Not in the slightest. rigidly, too. Mr. Latham: You are vePry innocent. Mr. ANGELO: Then how is it one can Mr. DAVY: That is my objction to scarcely pick up a newspaper without find- the Bill. ing- an account of some young fellow having Mlr. Panton: Hear, hea, gone wrong, or of someone having shot him- Mr. Clydesdale: Quite right, too. self through over-indulgpee in gambling? Mr. DAVY: If it had to do with gamb- Mr. Pan ton: They go to the racecourses lig. I should object that it was unnecessary. to do it. It would be utterly ridiculous to put o" the statute-book one piece of legislation Mr. ANGELO: For every person brought that forbids gambling and not enforce it, before the police court or mentioned in the and then put on the statute-book another newspaper as having gone wron~g through piece of legislation that forbids gambling over-indulgence in gambling, I dare say mind enforce it. What sort of ridiculous there are five others of whom we never hear. sight would the Governent make of them- Mr. Mann: Then you must stop every selves, having two pieces of legislation, both form of gambling if you want to make forbidding- gambling, and enforcing one and people moral by Act of Parliament. not the other! The Government would make 'Ar. ANGELO: No, we should try to con- themselves the laughing stock of the world. trol it. Take the liquor traffic. Liquor is ;feel impelled to speak on this Bill because bad for people when used to excess, and I intend to oppose it. If I do not state The Government adopt various means to tryv why I oppose it, it may be said by some to prevent people from consuming too much of my enemnies, and perhaps some of my liquor. We have inspectors to control traf- friends, that I am endeavouring to grant fic and weights nod measur-es and to watch ae'w facilities to the people of Western Aus- the interests of the people in other ways. tralia to indulge in gambling. I wish to Members must admit that gambling is in- sey clearly that I want nothing of the sort. creasing almost daily. We cannot suppress it Mr. TLatham: Just now you could not con- .altogether. It would be hopeless to try to nect the Bill with gambling; now you say do so, and I do not know that I should de- it is a means to that end. sire to suppress it entirely so long as it is Mr. DAVY: I said that this particular kept within moderation. It is the duty of piece of legislation has nothing- to do with the Government to safeguard the welfare of gambling. However, I quite realise that the public by curtailing gambling and keep- sonie people in Western Australia have ing it withi n bounds. If this Bill is not minds which work like that of the member passed and tin hare racing is introduced. for York (Mr. Latham). I fear that that [15 NOVEMBER, 1927.] 1873

lhon. member's mental attitude may operate gambling entirely on this particular sport against me with some persons in my con- or some other sport, such Etiort should not stituency, and that is why i wish to state lie permnitted at "ll, I answer that no police my views on the subject. It has always force in the world and no Executive yet been wvell recognised that to enforce a law have ever succeeded in entirely suppres.,- which deals with morals only is fairly diffi- ing the breach of any law. We have th*. cult. A law which endeavours to make a police force, and public opinion, and the criminal offence of something which is heaviest of all possible penalties against merely a moral offence, is always a difficult people whot commit murder; and yet every law to enforce. That is 'wby so much diffi- year, notwithstanding, murder,% are cora- culty is being experienced in enforcing pro- ifitted. The samie positio tobtains in re- hibition in America. The Bill proposes to gard to burglary and every other crime in make a criminal offence, with £C500 maxi- the fealt code. We are asked, because mum fine and the possibilities of a years what is on the face of it :a perfectly hontest gaol, of a thing which nobody in the world and decent could possibly suggest has anything wicked thing to do may cause gamb- ling, and because that gambling could not or immoral about it. Under the Bill, if ai be prevented, to wipe oiai this innocent man uses a mechanical contrivance in eon- thing. Then let its wipec out all other in- n~ection with the racing of animals other- nocent things fromt which gambling may than horses, he shall he deemed a criminal, arise-football, tennis, and what not.' Let dragged to the police court, put in the dock, and be fined up to £C500, and if he cannot ius go down to thie Causeway and feed thi. pay the fine he must go to gaol.* I can peCopIe on bread and mtilk for the rest of do no other than oppose a measure which their lives. proposes to turn into a crime somethin,-- 11r. Corboy: You even find fisherman Mr. Sampson: -that leads to crime. betting on their cateb. Mr. DAVY: I cannot think of any amuse- Mr. DAVY: T do not think I need say ment or any appetite of mankind andl anything in reply to thne arg-uments of the womankind that does not tend] to lead up member for Guildford (Hon. W. D. John- lo crime. The footballer, we know per- son). I think members generally will agree fectly well, is barked by certain enthusiasts. wvith me that for 15 minutes the hon. memn- We know that if it were permitted by th.! ber, whether intentionally' or unintention- Executive of this country, there would be a all-y, sticceeded in being highly amusing. herd of bookmakers on every football ground But, reallyv, to ask us to saw that there is in Western Australian where an important inher-ently sometinng dirty :Mbout the sport match was being played. We know perfectly of causing two (logs to ra*. after a mnech- well that at foot-racing and cycling thjn anical hare, and that thiere is something same thing would[ happen. Although doul* noble about causing two barses, under tine less there is some gamblig on footbal! whip, to raree- -horses, mt-rearer cncoma- matches, it is very limuited. Gambling onm passed around with a lot of artificial mach- football matches and cycl and pedestrin inery to make them adopt a particular gait races is not at social men-tee. The people at night time under eleetrif. light-is ab- who do it can probably afford. to do it, and surd. One cannot differentiate between tin- are keen supporters of the games in ques- sport of two dogs, racing each other and tion. To a certain extent gambling takes the sport of two horses racing each other. place on such events, but it constitutes no The animals arc biggein-ekdofsrt public scandal. At the Royal Agricultural and smaller in the other; and that is the Show there are usqually a couple of trottinte only essential difference. Furthber, just as races, and if a man likes to thrust himself much might one argue that tin hare i-acing into a mob of' people and woik his way into should be allowved in order to keep up tie the middle of a dense crovrd, he will 11114 standard of kangaroo dlogs, as that gallop- there some doubtful-looking persons ready ing and trotting races should be allowed in to lay the odds to him in a whisper, and lie order to keep tip the stanidard of utility may get his money if he wvins or be may horses. not. The sort of people who airc prepare I to aks a real struggle to get a bet of that Mr. Panton:- More so. sort, will 'ret bets on, he tie law what it Mr. DAVY: Probably more so. may. If it is to he said that because the Mr. Marshall: Take it from the aspect arm of the law wvould be unable to suppress. of relative degrees of cruelty. The horses 1874 1874(ASSEMBLY.]

r-ate under whip and spur, while the dogs is feared-and apparently with a good deal runa after the hare. of reason-that unless an Act to prohibit Mr. DAVY: I readily admit that we tin hare coursing is passed, there will be Australians are a pleasure-loving people, set up such a machine for gambling- and can love pleasure too much. But that is Mr. 'Mann: What about the Criminal not oing to be cured by passing laws: it Code?9 is going to be cured by 'education. To sug- Mr. SAMPSON: The hon. member knows gest that whenever we find the people of as well as I k-now, as well as anyone in Western the Chamher knows, that it is quite impos- Australia deciding to induilge in,' or threatened with, a new forta of amuse- sible to enforce the Criminal Code in so far ment, we shall declare tho'r new form of as gambling is concerned. amusement a criminal offence seems to me Mr. Davy: Why? SAMPSON: I want to make a few a retrogression to the days of the Bine Laws ,%r. remarks, and I shall reach that point shortly. of 'Newv England of 150 years ago. T can- Western Australia has always taken most not believe that this Hou.Qi~ wtill agrYee to liberal views as to racing, and quite reason- such a prop~osition. The object of the pro. stile opportunities have always been afforded mnoters of the Bill will he fully achieved if for gambling. 1 admit that the gambling the Premier will in this Ho-ise give an as- spirit is deeply rooted in the mind of every surance that the law with regard to gamb- man and everiy woman. Here to-night we. ling, as that law stands, will he rigidly en- tave heard members seeking to shield them- forced if tin hares are introduced into West- selves from criticism by claiming that it ern Australia. That is all we want. they vo-e for the Bill they will be doingZ The Premier: I give you nmy assurance something that is inconsiste nt. They claimi that I will vote for the Bill. and that if it that to support the Bill wotLId be equivalent is defeated I shall rigorously and vigorously to saying that in connection with horse rac- enforce the law ag-ains;t aiiy betting. ing they favour- gambling, and that in con- Members: Hear, hear! nection with tin hare coursing they are op- The Premier: I will vote for the Bill. loosed to it. In the words of the member for Mr. DAVY: I am perfectly satisfied Menzies (Mr. Panton), it may he claimed with that. If the Premier says that he does that there is in some quarters a spirit of not want the Bill- l'yprocrisy as regards the view taken of tin The Premier:- It will do no harm: it is hare racing. To-night we have repeatedl 'y one of the Bills that will do no harm. heard the argument that because betting1 exists we should cope with the evil by giv- Ur. DAVY: I say it will do a great ing to it a freer and wider scope. That, I deal of harm. ft wil be a precedent-FI suppose, is on the homceopathic principle sythis with no offence meant-for inter- that one cures a disease by injecting a fur- ference with the right of thl, pe-ople of tbk lier dose of the germ or poison thant has country to do anything they choose so long caused the complaint. A hommcopath would as they do nobodyi any harin. cure a person suffering from, for instance, pyorrhnea by giving him a further injection MR. SAMPSON (Swau) t8.25]: It has of the virus. That, surely, is what was said been clearly shown that gambling is insep- to-night by various members. They con- arably associated with tin hare racing. tended that if -we want to limit gambling we Mr. Panton:- Where has that been shown 9 can do it only by giving grae a ie Mr. SAMPSON: In a newspaper recog- for it, and by introducing such a spirit of. nised as one of the leading journals, if competition that one or more methods of not the leading journal, of England,' the gambling would be wiped out- Western "Manchester Guiardian." In its issue of the Australia, as has been said, has always :19th September last the "Manchester (luar- adopted a. spirit of laissez faire in regard dhan" writes- to gambling. The Premier: More lazy than fair. Whethvr hound racing and beting could exist apart need not be argued. It needs no Mr. North: An attitude of indifference. ghost froim the grave to tell us that if betting Mr. SAMPSON: It is an attitude which, at race meetings were rigorously suppressed, I know, the Premier believed leads to national racing W~ould not continue for a month. Every indifference. We know that at White City, e.a1ndid man w-ould admit as much. the defamed, and apparently rightly de- I claim that there is ais association between famed, gambling resort, the youth of this the Bill and tin hare courning, becaume it country are encouraged to take chances on [15 Novmau, 1927.]87 1875 all manner of gambling devices. White City that, and having witnessed' 'it on one has been called the hot bed of crime- or two occasions without betting, I amn con- The Premier; That is not exaggerating at vinced that it would be impossible for it to all! c-onti nue. Mr. SAMINPSON: White City has also 'Mr. Chesson: Then why worry?' been termed the g-enesis of the underworld Mr. SAMPSON: A %vy-ll known writer in and the reception room of Fremantle gaol. at M1elbourne newspaper (Air. Norman Campt The Premier:. Who said that? bell) referred to it in these terms- Lutey; It is your imtagination. Mr. Round thuv bookmnakers' stands the rivers of Mr. SAMPSON: It is not imuagination. Iiuuuanitv trned andi twisted. Twenty-five Mr. Lutey: It is, '-onr own imagination. to thirty thousand of them! Surely the tin Mr. SAMPSON: J question whether the hare sport grows by what it feeds on . . .- hon. member interjeeting is sincerely an ad- And miostly the faces in the kaleidoscopic crowd were weary faces. .. For unless yout vocate of White City. [1have no hesitation be-t, the sport becomes deadly monotonous. in saying that White City is a menace. The fever which at first infects you soov dies mi-. Lutey: What has it to do with the dnwrn. Bill? APSOIN:NI. Pardon my directing my I am proving that the sport can exist onty if gamblingr is carried on. remIarks to all interloper. Mr. Davy: 'The Premier has promised that Mr. SPEAKER: Order! the law will be enforced. Mr. SAMPSON: An interjeeter, I slhonld Mr-. SAUMPSON: We have heard a lot isay. He assumed the position of Speaker about tim rights of the poor mant to gamble Tor the moment and I was led astray- and the restrictions placed upon the poor Mr. Lutey: You are always astray. mnan as c-ompared with the mnore affluent. Mr. SAJ1PSON:- I suppose the least said Mr. Panton: Absolutely correct. about; White City, the better. But really Mr. SAMPSON: Such statemientsi arc the sooner White City is brought to an end pure moonshine. 'It is possible under present the better will it he for the fair name of' conditions to bet at every race mneeting. Perth and for the people growing up in it. There air s.urely Abundant opportunities for T in har-e racing will provide another op- the poor man, as well as the rich mnan, tit portunity for betting, and T am of opinion bet it Ile wishes to do so. that there is no need to provide that Mr. Chesson: Can you bet on pedestritin opportunity. I know I have the repu- events? lation for taking a serious view of rac- Mr. SAMPSON: Pedestrian eventa3 have race meet- ing. All the samne I do attend died1 so we have been told, because gambling ings, but with the evidence 'we have before was associktcd with them. us which is not confined to the Common- Mr-. ('hesson: 'Nothing of the sort. wealth-leading newspapers of the world ,Mr. SA-SN We know that a section, have condemned betting associated with of the Criminal Code makes hb-tting illegzal, mechanical hare racing-we would he Acting but we know also that it is inipractipabli unwisely if we allowed this form of so- aind impossible to administer that section. called sport to be introduced in this State. M1r. Davy: The Premier does not say so. it has been proved that without betting tin Mr-. SAIWPSONK: I -ai not going to smi; h are racint cannot exist. T hope it will he enforced, I believe it iA- Mr. Davy: Then why worry? impossible for it to he enforced in any Aus- 21r. SA MPSON: We know full well, and tralian community. the hon. niember knows it also, that it would 'Mr. Ma.,rshall: You are not 'vcry flattering be not only most diffieult but impossible to to the Australians. prevent it. MI-. SAM1PSON: We han-e enoug-h opilo-- MUr. Davy: T do not agree with you tunities for gambling- and in the interests of Mr. SAMPSON: The hon. muember ad- Western Australia T hope the Bill1 will he mitted during his speech that even at foot- carried. ball matches there was some degree of 'bet- ting. MR. SLEEMAX (Fremintle) [6.371: I Mr, Cprfbay: Then whyv not prohibit foot- desire to say a few -words against what f ball 9. ougrht to call the most lopsided Bill I haive Mr. . SAMPSON- Not -it all. -Fo'ot- looked( at sincec I have beenj a mnember A hail is an inspiring and exbilarating- this House. I would not have spokeni but vport. Tin hare racing is anything but for the remarks of some hon. niembirs Ol- 1876 17t1[ASSEMBLY.]

posite. when I moved the amendment to read sury bench, followed the example of all his the Bill six mouths hence. Those miember.,, predecessors and took no steps to suppress said that I had not the courage to expres betting. He never once attemipted to put my niews. Personally 1 would have pre- down betting Onl raccourses or trotting ferred to have got rid of the Bill so that. courses. No, hie was conteut to collect id. we might have had the opportunity of tax on every ticket that a bookmaker handed listening to the Premier on the Electoral out to his client. Districts Bill. ,1r. Panton : But horse rocilig is the sport The Premier: I am quite sure I would of kings. not have had such a fnll House. Mr. SIL1EEUIAANI A bookmaiker on Mr. SLEEMAN: 1 would have preferred al racecourse has ho inore right to to listen to thle Premier on that subjett, awd preferentia] treatment than has any'on(- I was hope-ful of sueceeding with my ntuew- else. If tile Premier intends; to put the meat. Unfortunately, however, 1 was de- law into force, good1 lurk to him. It feate on that move of mine, and hari: has been said to-night that tin hare rac- been challenged to make somec remarks on ing is going to carry gambling with it, be- the Bill, I am now forced into the positi,,a cause the gambling element is ssssoeiaterl of doing so. We take it that the objeet ut with the sport iii Sydney and Mfelbourne. the Bill is to prevent people engaging in the We know that in Sydney the bookmakers pastinic of tin hare racing. There is noth- swing their bags and bet openly on every- ing about gambling in the ]Bill, though -when thing. it 'was originally introduced in anoth~r 1)1mG Mr. Corboy: Betting is legal there. there were quite a number of clauses in it .Mr. S LE MAN: 'I attended a sports that dealt with betting and] mechanical dc- nieeting in a country' town if Western Aus- vices, but it was pointed out that the clauson tralia 12 monthsi atrn and I saw a mail were merely rca Iirmiu- c-erta in sections -it N%!rihgwy oni tiiekets iif ,aii l i rein : the Criminal Code, and at thle samne time wr-alked uip to him and told him to put his, would affect vested interests in the shaiw hook away. So that we know betting is not of the sport of kings. Thereupon theorg carried onl in connection with aill forms- of inal clauses were (deleted and niow we are sport. But T would not stop a man having nAked to hold up the business; of tile country a bet on a pedestrian event whilst wve per- to discuIss whether a few thousand people mit others to have bets on horses. We shall be denied the opportunity tn indulge; should be consistent. Either we should in the sport of tin hare racing. I cannot allow betting in connection with every form see any more harmn in watching a tin hare of sport or we should sap press it altogether. being chased by dogs than watching "dead?' It is claimied that tin hare racing will not ia a race. We have seen ownerq horses be carried on if betting is stopped. That disqualified for life because of certain prac- is an argument used to help the Bill to go tices, but on that account the whole of the- through. Withiout betting, it is said, the sport is not condemned. On the subject of racing will fall flat. We have been told the betting, every speaker to-night has exp-ressel same thing in connection with cycling and the belief that tin hare racing will lead Ir- pedestrian eventa,. and also in connection more frequent betting. T fail to see that with whippet racing. Whippet rncing is there is any more harm in betting on a tin still being carried on, even though betting' hare than there is in betting on a galloping in connection with it has been stopped. At horse or a trotter. But on betting gener- ally, I would support a Bill, if it were any rate there is no betting puablicly. T brought down, to prohibit bookmakerz: frorm visited 'Kalgoorlie a little while ago and went attending racecourses altogether. to a whippet race meeting, hut saw no bet- ting. It was a poor man's sport and it was Mr. Mann: That is the law to-day. very interesting too. Mr. SLEEMAN: And why is it not Mr. Corboy: There is whippet racing at carried outi Maylands every Satu-rday. Mr. North: You are sitting on the -wrong Mr. SLEEMAN: No matter what form side of the House when you say that. of sport a man takes up, we have no right Mr. SLEEMAN: Hon. members opposite to say that he shall not do thi or that. So had a good deal to say about allowing long as there is no criminal intent we should betting to continue, but we know that the not interfere. A man may take an interest Leader of the Opposition, when on the Tree- in suail breeding and snail racing. and it £15 Novamuss, 1927.] 171877 would be just ats interesting to him as tint out his threat, there will be no betting on hare racing, or other racing ii to anybody tin hare raring. else. The Bill provides ag~ainst the use of Mr. Sleeian : You know that lie will. a mechanical device in connection with rae- Mr. LATHAM: That is so, but if we have ig- by or between animuals other than horses, our say, the member for Boulder will no' 1 can see that in the near future some of lie Premier after next election. Consequently those good people who desire to stop the we can pin him dowvn for only a little time. lpcople from enjoying a tpartiecular form of When the member for IVest Perth -was sport will compel us to devote another night speaking, I interjected that gambling could to discussing the prevention of racing with not be dissociated from tin hare racing. I ineehnanii:al hor-es. This Bill will no; prevent do not know whether the hion. member in- racing with mechanical hor,,s. WVe learn tended to be unkind, but he suiggested that that in the Fastern States mechanical horse sonic of his electors might view the matter r-acing has beep introduced and that it is from another angle, although he constantly being patronised better than raving with tin connected gambling with the Bill. I have biares4. We should make a Job of it once and before me an official programme of Mel- for all and not hold up the genuine business bourno coursling with the mechanical hare. of the country in this way. It is terrible to The managing director is Mr. S. S. Swindell. think that We should be wasting so much lion. O. Taylor:- A very appropriate name. time discussing tiddlev-winking- things like Mr. Sleensian: A man cannot help his this. The member for Guilrlford told us% name. that the public endorsed betting on horses. Mr. LATHAM: I merely mentioned the hut I have yet to learn that that is so. TE name as a matter of information. a bookmarker goe5s to any Sporri m-eeting ex- The Premier: It is just a coincidence. cept on a raclecourse or a trotting round, 'Mr. LNTT{AM: The programme mentions a policeman wvill orderT the book to be the names of the dogs, but the most im- rut away. He is instructed by the powers portant part is the number of bookmakers that be to stop one section of the community operating there. f rom gamhling but not the other section ofi Hon. fl.. Taylor: Had any of them thet name of Swindell9 the community. I am prepared to go the Mr, LATHAM: There are a hundred and whole bog, but I am not prepared to dis- one bookmakers and that in a small place crimninate in favour of one section. A like Mfelbourne. sports meeting was held ait Onildford last The Premier: To what sport are you re- week and rumour !ias it that bookmakers ferring?- operated there. What right had they to Mr. LATHAM: To mechanical hare ra..fr operate at Guildford any more than at the ing.- country town I visited where larger prizes The Premier: I understand it is not ops- were offered and where people had been erating in Melbourne. training for 12 months? Mr. T.ATHTAM:r This is an official pr3- Hon. WV.D. Johnson: Do you sa 'y the;' gaunne andl it refers to the Epping race- were prevented from betting at Mfullewa? Mr. North: That is Sydne~y. Mr. SLEEMAN: Yes; they were told to Mr. LA THAM: T regr-et that I made a put their hooks away and they wocre afraid mistake. to bet throughout the remainder of the day. Mr. Panton: Get a geography book. Isaw a man running around trying to get Mr. Mann: Betting- is legal there. a bet aind he was unsuccessful. I hope the Mr. LATHTAM: I am aware of that. Bill will be disposed of quickly and rele- Mr. Mann: Then where is the point of gated to the place to which it deserves to go. your argument? so that we might hear the Premier on a much The Premier: I understand it has not ben more important question than that of tin declatred illegal in New South Wales. Cer- hare racing. tain men 'have been fined, but they are ap- pealing. MR. LATHAM (York) T8.461: I am not Mr. LATHAMT: That is admitted, him greatly cncerned whether the Bill will per- where tin hare betting is illegal. we 'know -mit bettin-. "We know that it does not dei! ihut be-ttinL tikes place.. A bookmaker's with hntt1'nL. hut it is a9 mean% to an end. ioh mn4t be very remunerative, or there. There is no donbt that if the Premier carries would not be 101 bookmakers registered. [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. Mann: There are a thousand bjook- lHon. W. D. Johnson: We pass Emls of mak-ers; in Sydney. that kind regularly. Mr. LATHAMI: There may be. Anyhow, Mr. CORBOY: The bon. member's atti- the fact of 101 being registered for tin hare tude is extraordinary. He recently pro- racing shows what a goad job it is. Book- mioted a sports meeting at Guildford at makers do not work too hard for the inooncy which trotting and cycle racing events were they get. decided and bookmakers were present, and~ Mr. Patton: Why should they, when they yet he says it is necessary to prevent op- have a lot of punters working for them! portunities for gambling. The Bill itself ithe most extraordinary one I have seen. The Premier: But look at the strainl On If members look at their copies they will find their votnes. an interesting point relating to penalties. M r. LATHAMI: I r.uppose they should be We have one or two members in the Hou'e paid for that. A simple little company i:s learned in the law, bitt I doubt 'whether they coming here to provide mnechanical hare Could tell its the weaning of the elausL' sport, bit is not going to do it for the good Clause 2 provides a penalty of £500 for a of the public. We have a perfect right to breach of the measure and Clause 3 stipu- interfere if we desire to lessen the oppor- lates that if Clause 2 be broken the penatIty tunities for gambling. While the law may ho. shall be £100. administered, there will he a certain amount Mr. Marshall: A total of £C600. of betting under the lap. Scores of people Mr. North: That is only a smallt matter. have expressed their views strongly in op- Mr. CORBOY: The Bill is drafled in I-Le position to tin hare racing. The people of most extraordinary manner of any Bill I Claemont and Subinco have expressed them- have ever seen. I should say it had been selves 4nd I believe the same applies to the amended in another place af ter a l engthy anti people of 'remantle. Consequently 'we have, upsetting debate. a right to say that 'we shall not allow tin hare Mr. North: We canL be thle Hous e of review racing in Western Australia. I do not eon- on this occasion. tend that the Bill will meet the situation, Mr. CORBOX': There are only two clau sea but no doubt amendments can be made in of importance in the Bill- Committee. I am glad to have the assur- mi.. Pariton: What would it havie been like ance of the Premier that he will support the had it contained half a dozen clauses? Bill and that even if it is defeated, he will Mr. CORBOY: A ad the two clauses Are see that the law is carried out as regards in direct contradiction. They provide two betting on tin hares. separate penalties for the same offcee. The Premier has indicated that he intends to snp- MR. CORBOY (Yilgarn) [8.50]: This is port the Bill and that, if: it is; passed, he will another of those Bills that seek to restrict see that the law is igorourly enforced. the individual. Personally I think we have 14r. Davy: He said he would see that too much legislation of that kind alreadly. the law was enforced if the Bill was not The next step will be to have a Bill promoted passed. by the Western Australian Football Leaguie szeeking to compel everyone to play footll Mr. COILBOY: That is so. I wonder instead of tennis or something of that sort. how far he intends to proceed with the en- The only public protest that I have heard of forcement of the law on the. racecourse and against the introduction of tin hare main; whether he intends to refrain from collect- has come from an interested body, namely, ing the 2d. on each ticket issued by book. the Trotting Association, who feel that the makers. attendances at their Saturday night meetings The Premier: I take leave to draw at dis- would be affected. The same people en- tinction between horse racing and sports deavoured to prevent the introduction of of this kind. motor cycle racing on the speedway at Clare- MIembers: Hear, hear! mont. Witb them it is merely a matter of Mr. CORBOY: Then the Premier sets vested interest. We can well do without a himself up as a judge of 'what is a good number of those measures that place more sport and what is' not. and more restrictions on the liberty of thle Mr. North: Backed up by the public. individual to amuse himsgelf as he thinks Mr. CORBOY: Excepting for a few people, principally clergymen, the only ones [15 NovEMa ER, 1927.] 187987 who have protested have been those inter- Mr. CORDOY: Anyhow, it is quite be- 4-sted in trotting. side the point. The duty of preventing lacil- M11r.North: What about the Claremont ilics for gambling has been advanced asa referendum? reason for supporting the Bill, but as I Hlon. U. Taylor: What about the Subiaco p)ointed out, that those who advanced that people? 41rguiment, almost without exception voted Mr. COUBO Y: The member for Clare- to extenrl gambling facilities by providing mont referred to the Clereinont referen- 12 extra trotting mecetings pr~ annum in the dlun. That was a pretty close thing, much nietropolitan a rea. Their attitude has been closer than the lion. member would like his most inconmsistent. 1 give the iPremier credit inext election to be. for being- one of a little hand of eight who Mr. North: I do not agree -with that; it opposed the previous iea.-ure and so he is wris a definite majority. c-onsistent in his atitude to-night. Mr. CORB-IY: At any rate the vote at Mr. Lathami: But you also opposed it. Claremont was not large enough to reflect 31r. COIIIIOY: ]. dlid. the wishes of the people. ULmost, all mem- Mr. Lathiamu: Then whby oppose this hers who support the Bill have said they Bill3 regard it as their duty to restrict oppor- Mr. COtIBOY: I opposed thle extensionl tunities for gambling. 1 qim inclined to agree of trotting beeau~e I did not consider it with them, but I claim that those members, wrise to provide vx tra faciflies for except the member for Suibiaco, have not gamllbling. Onl this, occasion, however, we l'een consistent. I made an interjection to have thle Pr-emiier's assurance that no gambl- thincmember tar Suhiaco. that was incorrect. iiug will be permitted at tin hare racing. I said he voted for the Bill to legalise trot- lion. G. Taylor: You; were just as enthus- ting at Fremnantle, hut lie did not vote iastic in your support of the six months' in thle division. Almost without exception,' anieadineit and you did not, then have the and including- the member who moved the Premier's assurance. second reading- of the Bill: those supporting Mr. (2ORhiOY: Tihe 'l does n;ot refei this meatsure voted to give 12 extra trotting to betting. I was strongly opposed to the mecetings per annum in the metropolitan Bill, as thie hon. mnember indicates, bu- area. cause it does not deal with bet ting. Mr. North: Certainly: trotting is a dif- It merely seeks to pirevent peopig ferent thing,. who so desire fromt racing their dlogs. Mr. COWBOY: The member for Onild- I fail to Fee ul13y a mann who owns a dog ford said he regarded it ns his duty to re- shudnot be permitted to race it aganinst sirict the oppo)(rtunities for gamhblinz, hult lie anothier man's dog. In the metropolitan also repgarded it as his dnt to vote for the area, close to my boume, whippet racing is 12 extra trolling meeting. cnducted every Saturday afternoon. The Hon. W. D. Johnson: I would be an handicalps are published every Friday iii extraordinary individual if I could not see the "West Australian." These races have the difference between extending- trotting been goingy on at regular intervals for 06W and introducing tin hare racing. last 12 months. I have been there at times, Mr, Davy: Well, you did not succeed in and have never seen any betting trans2 showing-us the distinction between the two. aictions. The sport is conitinuling alt thel time. These people flind amusement iti Mr, CORl3OY: I do not know that the -raing whippets and in runningr thein ,p(eta':le of women rushing aroundl the tote .igainst each other. I fail to see why they at trotting meetingsi is elevating. should not be allowed to 410 this, seeing- that 'Mr. Davy: Rushing round the book- o)ther people are permitted to play toolba 'I makers and the stable boys. or lawn tennis. There is too mnuch legi's. Mr. CORBOY: The position at the trot- lation on thle statute-hook that tends to r&J tingI neeitincs was such that the'eommitteu strict the rights of the people to do What of the Perth ground foundl it necessary to they think is fit and proper. provide a separate tote for women only. M12r.N6rth: This Bill does not advocate MR. GRIFFITHS. (Ave,~ [9.91!: I o 'L horse rading. pose the Bill, because I thinik the House The Ftemier: And-the tendency of the ought to be logical, 'If we ale going to pro- age is to segregate the §exes. hiibit tin bare racing, i'L.hy'not prohibit ilet 34r. Puinton: T cannot agree with that. suicidal business at Claremont, where motor 1880 [ASSEMBLY.) cycle riders take their lives in their hands squarely in the face, and attempted to regu- to entertain a number of thrill-mad people? late the business so as to send this money Hon. GI. Taylor: They take their bicycles into more useful channels. I have had a in their hlands. goodl deal to do with foot racing and bicycle Mr. GRIFF'1ITHS: Why should there be racing. People have always had their bets any dafteentiation 7 in] assoeiation with those sports. Mr. Corlwoy: There is a spill in almost Hlon. W. J. George: People have bet on every raee ait Claremont. the elections. Mr. GIIFF1111S: That is so. I14o not Mr. GRIFFPITHS: Of course. That is want to see any' increase in betting. f do agrainst the law, bilt betting cannot be en- 'tot say it i., wicked for people to bet. If ti icely suppressed, no miatter what may he it man has at pound to spare to put on a doneW. horse, or a football wiatch, or a whippet Mr. Davy: It can be reduced to a mini- race, and lie is not hurting anybody else by in nih by enforcing the law. s-pending that pound, I do not see why he should not be allowed to (10 so. There is Mr. GRiFFItTHS: It is not enforced. Nir. Davy: It is enforced with regard to no reason wh3 a mail should not follow ht is inclinations in this direction. most sports. Mr. North: Do you think there is gamb- Mr. GRIFFITHS: Tin hare racing is no Jitig goii's on at the sp~eedway? worse than, cycle racing or foot running. Alr. GlCIFFITILS: I feel sure there IS. lion. AV. J. Georg~e: Tell us somnething, Mr. Davy: I do not supi ose one per cent. about tin hare racing. of the people who go there gamble. 11r. flRFliFITHS: The lion. mneimber Mr. GRIFFI[THS: I think the speedway knows more about tinned dog. 1 see no oh- jeetioji to will die out if there is no gambling allowed. tin hare racing if thle betting laws ,Ire rigidly If the Premier will carry out his promise enforced. If there is "o betting to enforce the gambling laws, there is no associnted with it, the sport will soon die need to fear with regar toayfr of out, just as the speedway at Claremont will sport. Tin hare racing, at all events, will die if no betting is permitted there. There become merely a passing- craze. This is a is little doubt that betting already gui-a on poor mail's sport. Whippet racing is al- in connection with motor bicycle races, not- ready being conducted ats a legal sport at witlistanding what members have said in an- Mayland., on Saturday afternoon. other place. Mr. Davy: If this Bill passes, and you go Mr. Richardson: Two wrongsdo not make to the whippet races in at motor ear, Vit qright. wyI Iine E1(500. Mr. GRIFFITHS: We have allowed bet- Mr. OI!FF11115: I admnit that gambling ting to go on. A man can bet at the Weld is a foofisli and expensive method of amus- Club, aind no notice will be taken of it. ing oneself, but it is inherent in our race. Mr. Angelo: How do you know that? Previous speakers have admitted that it is Mr. GRIFFITHS: T do not know. impossible to suppress gambling. At any Mr. Lindsay: Then why make the as- rate, the Government might try to divert sertion. into more useful channels some of the money, Mr. (}RTFFITHS: We know that bet- that is gambled away. Some of the money ting- goes on in these clubs. Many men can- that is now wasted might well he diverted not afford to go to the races on Saturday to other objiects that would he more use- afternoon, but that does not prevent them ful, such as in the direction of our from betting. Occasionally the police make hospitals. It strikes me there is a raids upon them, and also upon the lot of hyprocrisy about this business. fanl tan schools of the inoffensive Chinese, The Federal Government passed legislation and upon two-uip schools. A differ- prohibiting sweeps, but allowing them to be entiation is made between the two held in Tasmania. The Tasmanian Govern- classes of people, those 'who are well off, ment take 12V2 per cent. out of every prize and those who are not. I do not favour that is won. In addition to that sweep gamlbling, but do not see why we should there are the Katoonraa sweep, the Golden differentiate between different kinds of Casket snveep, the Baillarat sweep, and so sport. We should be logical. If we are on. We constantly see sweep tickets sold going to prevent tin hare racina , why should in the streets of Perth in the cause of we allow motor cycle racing, where men tire charity. It is timep-. 'v ,kei tliine4 riskinz their lives in order to provide thrills [15 NOVEMBER, 1927.] 1881 for a certain section of the people? Ordin- Alr. BROWN: It is easy to put tempta- ary bare coursing is not hmune. It is in tion in the wvay of any person. Why should fact a cruel sport, but this cannot be said we put temptation in the way of anyone? of tin bare racing. Pigeon shooting is also That is what we certainly shall be doing if ai cruel sport, although it is allowed. we allow tin hare racing. What kind of The Premier: P'igeon shooting is not sport is it? allowed. Mr. Davy: What is the definition of Mr. G-RIFFITHLS : [t was allowed onl sport? the goldfields when I was there. -Mr. BROWN: A coanly sport is that The I 'reraje r It has not been allowed for- wvhich requires of particip~ants in it a good many years. physique and soundness of wind and limb. Mr. GRIFFIT'JlS: These are undoulbt- These qualities aire required of a good foot- edly' cruel sports. I have seen many pigeon ranner or a good cyclist. There is some- shooting matehe,. on the goldhlelds, and thing in a sport of that sort. But when thought what a cruel sport it was. There dlogs are chasing' a tin hare, where does the is nothing inhumane about tin have racing. element of sport come in? Onl the other despite the comedy sketch given to uts by hand, Ilite horse ii the noblest animall mi lte the member for Onildford. T do not want la.ce or Cced's earth. to see gambling encouraged, neither do I Mr. Marshall: And you flog him and spur want to see too much interference with the himo, :ind force hini to perform it task that, liberties of the people. It seemsg to be the is almost impossible; and many horses drop prerogative of this House and another place (lead as a consequlence. That is the treat- to introduce legislation that interferes with inca I that is given to the noable animal. the liberty of the subject. If we are going to permit motor cycvle r-acing to be indulged NMr.Panton : ce-, and even batteries are in on the speedway at Claremont, we should put onl tlhenm. allow tin hare raeicinglo, to be held. Mr. BROWN: We must study the breed- ing of dogs. The member for Gruildforct MR. BROWN (Pingelly) [913 When (Hon. WV.D. Johnson) was quiite ighzt in I first read the Bill, I asked myself what his icforences to that aslpet. What class right the Government had to interfere with of dog arc we to breed? I suppose that f',r the liberty' of the subject. tin hare coursing kangaroo dlogs will be used. Now-, the kangaroo dog is about the worst Mr. North: After that you heard some mongrel on earth. Ag-ain, if a dlog onl tr~e goo atrguments in favour of the Bill? tin hare courses proves unable to winl a raeJ,, Mr. BROWN: We have in our midst all who is going to feed him? How is, he to lie forms of sport, horse racing, trottingl, motor disposed of? There are too many dogs in cycling, and a dozen others. If we allow t14 State already.v What classes of dogs one form of sport, why should we not allow have we now? The bobbed dog, the sheep another? There aire two sides to every ques- dog, the cattle dog, the ponweranian, the tion. I wish to take into consideration the dingo, and at hundred- and one other kinds, other side. I am thinking of the clams of most of them of no benefit whatever to West- people who will pactronise this sport. er-n Australia. The member for Guildford Mr. Steelman: To wvhat class do you hit the nail oil the head when lie said thai refer? smile peole absolutely worshipped dogs. Mr. BROWN: T. refer to the poorer Ladies, ancd in particular ladies witho it classes, and to young boys and girls. When families, turn their love towards dlogs, often I think of them I can come to no other con- because they en,, get from the dogs the affec- clusion than that we already have enonigh tion fthey cannot get from their husbands. sport in this State without catering for any The other day I saw in some news- more. When we pick up the newspaper paper a picture that struck me as highly we read about boys and girls visiting White appropriate. There was at bedroom wit), City, or some other place. and about their a big fat old lady in the bed, and a poodle being out at all hours of the night. alongside her in the bed. The husband hal Mr. Mann: Will this Bill prevent that? just got into his D, jan'as. and the lady wasg Mr. BROWN: Of course. saying to the dog, "Pido. darling, move ov.wr Mr. North: It will be a step in the right at bit; daddy is ready to get into the bed." direction. Whet, an old horse heconieg useles lip s 1882 LASSEMBLY.] sent to the Zoo, but what is to become ot tunratelY hioit- racing is conducted ver:; wedl ustkss (logsI in WVestern Australia. There is Rio dotdtl The premier: They might be turned into about that, though some people desire to sausages. dispairage the control of racing. Trotting, Mr. BROWN: Perhaps many of them at-,, also is conducted verN well indeed, tiotwi th- disposed of in that way. However, this standing the fact that peOople who are inclined matter has its serious side. Hlave wve nov to build uip anr argument in favouir of tia stufficient sport in Western Aistral ia'! 1 ave- hrare coursin and oilier forms of spl:0 vt kc we catered enough for tim sporting proeliv. to disiparaige the elfortsi of the Trotti ag .1 ties of a population of less than 400,1000 socintion. _1y views upion tavlingge l in this you ii country! are fairly well known to lion ncunlIns L Mr. Marshall: Outside horse rating, what txiiresscel tem in this, Chamber yvars ago. sport is tihere. and( I (10 not feel ca lled upon to repecat them to-night. If there is to be ravinag ;in Wesgt': Mr. B3ROWN: Is hans been said that tijern Anstralia, it should ibe conductied onl lives is no gambling connected with football. rca sonaiaily - !ptileto Ili, ix'upi' of iti .Mr. Marshall: Football i4 played during Stale; and so far as I kinow, that s ihlie c0 only live inoils of thle year. now'. Bit to itroduce a fu rthier oppor - Mr. BlE )WV : Does anyone want to gab)- tuiaitvy forpople to gamlble- and tilt:' I ble oil football! No. A manl has his en- take it, is the ma in reason for ft(i d,-irc to thusiastri for a particular cliib. VThe sport int roduace the till hare in to W e-te In Alus - itself works uip thle en thusiasm. But c:1n tralia-is a proposition that hbt, usothiin- i enthusiasm 1)0generated byv the sight of dog- reoes-nIfit. Iai d1ispassi on atelydisi chasing a tin harre? Without betting, tin iag the merits, ad possible demevrits. ~i tin haure coiilsitig will soon (lie a natural deat.. hare coursing, we nived not deparjt P-on, tile The pre I obj~ect i.o to obtain a footing for main question, which should hie pariamiouiit an tinl hare vooriilg, ande immllediatelY :1 footing ]ias been secujredl gambling will lie introdneedi. our mmnds-.(- rpustion whlethecr the intro- I n Sydn'. , Where tin 'litte coursing * p)e!- duction of the tin haracNiuld he i 'tie I 's iit." t , atl mny as 20,000 or 30.000 People interests of otir peol-lc It t0e ninjAilr patronise a tin hare mieeting. Are the pro- Fremantle (11r. Sleenan ) cozp i2,rs Ifhat ie' mnotors of till hare 1racing out for the ad- introduction of the tin hanre. ,,itk .l1 the vantage of (lhe public? No; theY ire oft conseqtient ramuifications of gan i nilt lat'd far the. I-mlit of their nivn p'u-ket . When attendant disaster-is, acceptable to [he wi we learn that the storekeeper, the butcher n.ij I PI- the ha key will have to go short lieca ue of Mi. Slevmn. Ini* what part of Ilhe Bill ii niliiry 1l.,t in gAmibl lu, cail oily reasonable gali hling.1 men tio ned! person ii y that more sport is required in Ili% IAA~l1EH'h' : The gamrbling- phase Western Australia? T shall vate for the wzas rised iy thre lion, member. If lie second reading of the Bill. thinks fte intpidiiution of a fnirther oppor- tunity for gamblinT dlesirable, hie ii quite M.R. LAMBERT (Coolgmidie) [9.20): 1 entitled to his o,)in ion, anti doubtless lie shall support the second reading, aiid T an) will vote agailit thre Bill. It seem's to iate pleased to know that the premier has given needless to discuss the mnacsre at niuo) his assurance that undeir no conditions will greater lenaih, in viewl of the Premnicl'q gambling be permitted at tin haure meeting'. assiaraine it-at lie is strongly opposed to Possiblyv the conduct of the tin bare bus. tile i nt'o:1 as-ti "ia of tile gi, niblinz element ices will hie nll right, kit 1 do not think wve into this faint or alleged sport. That beint, shoid conel n tenn rie the furtther comm erci ali - so. we can safely' rely upon tile hon. gentle- snation of sport in We~tern Anaiai. I mianiis asst ran cc. I do not know that the would proball'y listen to the surgestion t"M.. Bill is ailtogethepr necessarY. The measure. a tin bare coursing- club he estal,hoed iii T take it, is the outcome of the expresse-I W\estern A ustralia on the sqae Ii ues a.A ol'e: dlesire of at large section of the Western sporting elibs, but it is un entirely dirervylt Australian eoniinnit 'v not to see spori proposition to sanction the stairtine of a fauather comnmceci alised. It is positively club that will enable a few people to coal- ridiculous to drawv. as tile Illeher for- Yil- mcirciali- tin hrave coursingp for their own gain 01'r. Carboy) tried to do, a superficial personal gain. Stich a proposition is. *o distinction between tiii hate hunting on the say the least of it, highly undesirable. Foe- one hand and trotting and racing on the [15 NOVEMTBER, 1927.] 181883

other. I express this opinion regardless of this new form of gambling suppressed at whether it is liked or disliked. At any thle outset. rate, it is not an opinion framed to suit a Mr. Djavy. Not gambling. particular occasion. It is expressed, as I Mr. NORTH: Well, this form of sport believe it should be expressed, in the in- that will lead to gambling. We ask that it terests of the people of this country;, and, shall be suppressed before a penny is spent whether I gain favour or incur disfavouri on it and before people are urged to invest by such a course, I hope my opinions will money in a concern, which, we are told, will always be expressed in that manner so lotg not be able to continue if gambling is not as I remain here. I see no analogy what- permitted. I trust the House will agree ever between horse racing and trotting onl to thle Bill, especially as we have the the one hand, and what I regard as rather responsible leaders of both sides of the anl undesirable form of sport to introduce House in fav-our of it. into Western Australia. I shall vote for the second reading of the Bill, if only as Question put, and a division taken with a means towards curbing the activities of the following result:- a proprietary club seeking to initiate this Ayes 22 form of sport here. Noes 20

MR. NORTH (Claremont-in reply MHajority for .. 2 [0.28]: I shall not detain the House, be- cause the arguments have been too varied Arca. and too long. I have, however, realised Mr, Angelo Mr. Lindsay fromn the debate that a reasonable majority Mr. Barnard Sir James Mitchell of members present are in favour of the Mr, Brown Mr. Muase Mr. Collier Mdr.Richardson Bill; and included among them are the Mr. Ferguso Mr. Sampson Premier, the Leader of the Opposition, and Mr. Oeorge Mr. J. M. Smith the deputy Leader of the Country Party. Mr. W. fl. Johnson Mr. Taylor Therefore I need not weary the House by Mr. E,. B. Johnston Mr. Tray Mr. Kennedy Mr. A. Wanebroughi trying to answer all the arguments used Mr. Lambert Mr. C. P. Wanebrueih against the Bill, though I have hero notes Mr. Latham Mr. North of many of the points that were raised. (Teller,) The chief point seemed to be that there qozs. was a lot of hypocrisy in regard to M r. Cheison Mr. Lutey gambling. Let that be admitted, but how Mr. Clydesdale Mr. Mann can it be affected by this Bil' In declar- Mr, Corbor Mr. Marshall ing for the suppression of tin hare racing Mr. Corerley Mr. Millingtont the measure does not say bhat, ergo, every Mr. Cunningham Mr. Fenton Mr. Davy Mr. Rows other form of gambling is good, and that Mr. Griffiths Mr. Sleeman all horse racing should he encouraged, and M4r. Beron Mr. Wilicock so forth. The Bill is merely a move in. a Miss Holman Mr. Withers certain direction, which represents an ex- Mr. tamest Mr. Wilson pression of opinion to-day of the people of to-ay upon a new arrival in our midst- Question thus passed. a certain curse w'hich has proved a burden Bill rend a second time. to other communities. T, for one, hope to see gambling more carefully controlled; I" committee. and if we are to have gambling defined, Mfr. Lutey in the Chair; Mr. North in as was proposed to-day, T shall be glad if charge of the Bill. the Government will bring in a measure to legatlise gambling in certai places only. Clause 1-agreed to. Mr. Sleeman: Only in certain places? Clause 2-Prohibition of racing where Mr. NORTH: Yes, and at certain times, mechanical devices, etc., used: just as the hours of drinking are limited. Ron. W. D. JOHNSON: I suggest to That question, however, does not arise the member for Claremont that he does not under the Bill. We are merely asked to persevere with the Committee stage. I con- express, through Parliament, the desire of sider Clause 2 requires close investigation a large section of the community to have to find out what it means. What is in- 1884 [ASSEMBLY.]

tended, for instance, by'(he use of any iin beta use, in mny opinion, Clauses 2 and 3 miechanical device or contrivance for the pro- due not read sensibly. motion of or in connection with racing by The I.REMJRRF: I do not see any dir- or between animals, other than horses"? I~s iieulty in the clause, And we can proceed it anticipated that if we leave out the three with the Committee stage whth safety. If we last mentioned words there is some contri- were to adljourn the consideration of the vanes that will be allotted? Pill, "we would merely have a repetition or Mr. E. B3. Johnston; Ycs, the totalisator the discussion. The clause is quite clear. It' would be affected. tiewimember for Guildford cons'iers that lion. W. fl. JOHNSON: If the Hill is something may be brought within the scope so wide that we have to specially specif y of the clause that iws not intended- "other than horses," it may be necessary to Hon. W. 1). Johnson: Take whippet specify something else. When we start to racing. to embody limitations in a eiause we have to The 1PRIEMIERI: That will uot be af. be careful that wve are achieving what we de- fected. sire and not providing for something that lion. W. 1). Johnson : Is there not a stn,,t- was not intended. I regret that I did not ing machine? study the Bill previously. I'should like to The PREMTER: No, the whippets ara' get legal opinion regurdiug one or two started with the hands. The hon. member hai points. The member for Claremont did not not Attended whippet races for a long time. explain the Bill but dealt with the principle, There is no mechanical contrivance assoc- and it wvas on the principle that we voted. I iated with the startig of whippets. suggest that the Committee stage be post- Mr. Corboy: What About the whistling- poned. And the towelql Mr. CORBOY: I support the suggestion The PREMIER: The whippets are hl by the member for Guildford that the Corn- liv the ownlers or trainers and released from imittee stage be postponed. thie hand. I cannot recall Any existing forn flon. G. Taylor: You wnit to rally your of sport that meets with the approval of the forces!1 people, buat would be debarred by the clause. Mr. North: Tactics!1 lion. W". D. Johnson: I have seen a rn'- Mr. COBBOY: That is ungenerous. fhauical recorder of winners used at run- Clause 2 seeks to prohibit the use of any unrn contests. mechanical device or contrivance for the The PREMIER: That is in foot raciinr promtotion of, or in connection with, i'aeing This is for tlie racing of animals other than. by, or between Animals other than horses. horses. Clause 3 sets out that any person who pro- Hion. Ws.D. Johnson: Could it not be usedl motes, engaaes in or takes part in any rae for the whippets? ing dIelared to be anlawful by Clause 2, The PREMIER: No, because some of shiall be guilty of an offence, but Clause 2 them run wvith their heads well up, whilp does not make any racing unlawful, as it. others carry their heads low on the ground. merely' prohibits the use of mechanical de. So it would be difficult to construct any vices, and so on. line thait would record a finish. Mr. North: Butl it is consequential. Mr. Davy: There might bn. a paper barrier Mr. COBBOY: I do not think so. Clauses erected at the end. 2 aud S1 deal with different. subjects. The The PREMIER: There might be, but T formier deals with mechanical devicesz And the do not think there is. There is not a Bill latter with racing- conceivable but some highly imnrohabli, Mr. E~. B. Johnston: At which mneclanni. thing- might be found to come within the cal devices are used. scop~e of its provisious. I think, on the Mr. CORBOY: I think the clauses deal whole, this is quite safe, and I suggest to with different subjects altogether. Then the member for Guildford that if between again the penalty clauses require attention. now and the third reading he should find. Under Clause 2 the penalty is £500 and un- apart from two instances he has indicated der Clause 3 £100. -the judging machine for pedestrian events. Mr. North: The first penalty will have to and the starting of 'thippts-anything not go out; that is clear. contemplated which nevertheless m~zht come Mr. CORBOY: Then that is all right. I within the provisions of the Bill the member think the Bill As a whole requires redraft- for Claremont would be prepared to re- [16 NOvEMBEr., 1927.] 1885

commit the Bill. So 1 suggefst that since we The M1inister for Railways: It might he have spent the whole of this sitting on the a legal objection, but it is not a common- measure we mnight as well proceed to put it seit* one. through Committee. Mr, DAVY: What the draftsman was Mr. DAVY: I am not at all satisfied that thiniking of was the so-called tin hare, the this clause might not carry us somewhere mechanical lure. But these words go far we do not wish to go. Apparently 22 mem- beyond that. Whippets (10 not require a bers do not care very much where they go on mechanical lure. A fellow at the other end the question. of the course merely waves a red rag at Hon. W. D. Johnson: That is not fair. them. The CHAIRMAN: The hou. member The Premier: Not always a red rag; must not reflect upon the judgment of other sometimes it is a white one. members. Mr. DAVY: At all events the ;vhippetg Mr. DAVY: I am not suggesting- any re- race after it. In this instance we get a flection on the character or judgmient of any mechanical device, and the use of that de- member. vice is to be considered a criminal offence. The Premier: It would he open to mnain- And instead of stopping at that, the drafts- hers to retaliate if you did. men-I understand there were 30 of them Mr. DAVY: Of course. I withdraw if on this clause; the whole of the members my remark is taken as a reflection. The of another place in Committee. Originally whole clause is extraordinarily wide, and I the Bill was introduced in quite a different suggest that if we start to make a criminal form. It went in at one end of the sausage offence of something which is not inherently machine and came out like this. The doubt wicked or criminal- raised by the member for Guildford was not The Premier: That is the whole point of an ill-founded one, and the clause certainly the Bill. needs careful scrutiny. Mr. DAVY: We propose by this clause Mr. SLEEMAN: I should like to know to make the use of any mechanical device why racing is here restricted to animals unlawful. other than horses. The original draft was The Premier: This is what we have divided quite different. It simply made it unlawful onl. this clause. to bet on the results of tin hare racing. Was Mr. DAVY: We divided on the Bill. it subsequently restricted to "other than The Premier: But this clause is the Bill. horses%" so as not to offend the horse owners? Mr. DAVY: This clause makes a criminal Surely, it is no worse to race dogs after a offence, not the conduct of racing between tin bare than it is to race whippets. I move greyhounds, but the use of any meehanical an amendment- contrivance in the racing of such, animals. That ini line .3 the words Vt other than Apparently the driving of one's whippets horses" ble struck out. in a motor ear to the whippet racing ground Amendment put and negatived. is going to be punishable by a fine of £500. Clause put and passed. Members: No, no. M-%r.DAVY: I suggest that if I am a Clause 3-Penalty for taking part in un- whippet owner nnd place my whippets in lawful racing: my motor ear to take them to the whippet Mr. SIEEMA.N: It would be interesting racing grounds, surely I am using a me- to know wvhat this means. It declares that chanrical device in connection with whippet ally person "'ho promotes or takes part, racing. etc. floes that mean anybody who might The Premier: Oh! be on the gate or employed about the Mr. DAVY: Again, if I run a whippet grounds? racing round and carry any cash to the Hon. G. Taylor: Yes. It is rendered un- whippet racing ground in my car, how am lawful by Clause 2, which we have passed. I not using a mechanical device for the pro- Mr. DAVY: The clause we have passed motion of racing between animals other than makes a criminal offence the use of any kforses I mechanical device, wvhereas this makes it a Mr. Angelo: According to that, one could criminal offence to take part in any racing not use a railway track to carry his dogs declared unlawful in Clause 2. Clause 2 from one town to another. does not declare any racing unlawful. There 1886 [ASSEMBLY.] is a contradiction between the two clauses. The CHAIRMAN: 1 cannot allow at gen- It would be more sensible to have the same eral discussion on this clause. offence mentioned in Clause 2 as in Clause Mr. MANN; The penalty in Clause 3; is 3. However, if the member in charge of inconsistent. Under the Criminal Code any- the Bill is satisfied, I will let it go. one keeping a common betting house, whichi Mr. SLEEMAN: Clause 2 provides a this would he-- penalty of £500 for the use of a mechanical The Premier : This has nothing to do device. Who is going to pay the fine-the with at common betting house. promoter? Clause 3 declares that the pro- Mr. MANN: Does the clause mean that moter shall be fined £100. The two penal- a man getting 12s. for taking charge of the ties ought to be in agreement. gate would be liable to a penalty of £5001 Mr. Davy: They would chop off his biand. Mr. MINANN: No doubt these two clauses Mr. MANN: What about a mali engaged are contradictory in respect of the penal- to sweep the road outside V ties. Who could be more responsible than The Premier: If he was outside the fence the promoter? Yet Clause 2, providing a hie would be all right. If he got inside, it penalty of £E500, does not prescribe that the would be £100 penalty, and serve him jolly promoter shall pay it. Of course the man well right. using the device will be the promoter. Mr. MANN: Very well, I shall let the Mr. Davy: No, I should say it was the clause go, and ask that Clause 2 be recoi- man working the engine, a man getting per- mitted. hapis £5 per week. Hon. G1.TAYLOR: I fail to see why there Mir. MANN: Let us pass something that should be any argument about Clause 3. It is workable. The Bill as originally intro- is useless for the member for Perth to sug- duced was a mudhl larger one and was gest that an offender would be tried under amended in hurried fashion in another the Criminal Code. He would be tried tin- place. der this measure. The clause is quite clear. The Premier: No, the discussion was ad- Mr. SLEEKAN : The Bill appears te journed and the amendment was prepared. have been redraf ted in a hurry, and Clause 3 seemingly wvas mutilated 3o It was not hurriedly drafted in Committee. The amendment was prepared and was in- much that the Council did not know serted in the Bill at the next sitting. wvhat it contained. The penalty of £E101) was originally intended to apply to Mr. 'MANN: At all events it has been betting on motor cycle racing, and in the badly drafted, for who could be more re- haste of redrafting the Bill thc Council sponsible than the promoter? Under Clause omitted to alter the penalty. The member 2 the penalty is £500, but under Clause 3 for Claremont would be well advised to re- the person who commits the offence is liable port progress. to a penalty of £100. The hon. member in Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: Clause 3 is uin- charge of the Bill told me be was going to necessary. All that I desire is to prohibit move for the deletion of thnt £500. Had] tin hare racing, and that is definitely ie- I known he would not do so, I would have clared unlawful by Clause 2. If a companyv moved in that direction myself. The hon. were formed for tin hare racing, that wouold member, however, did not move, and I was be using an unlawful device. surprised when the clause was passed. Mr. Davy: Who would be using it? Hon. W. D. Johnson: In view of Clause Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: Clause 2 accom- 2, why do we want Clause S? plishes all that I want. If we retain Clause Mr. MANN: If the £500 penalty had 3 it will be inconsistent. been struck out of Clause 2, it would have Hon. G. Taylor: Anyhow, no one willli been all right, because the £100 penalty fined under the measure. would then have covered both clauises. The Hon. W. D. JOHNiSON: As the Bill penalty in the Criminal Code for keeping at stands, there is a double penalty and it is commton betting house is £100. our duty to make the law clear and dktinet. Mr. Latham: It has been arued all the Penalties of £500 and C100 are provide,[ for evening that the Bill has nothing to do with the same offence. My reading of thc Bill betting. is that a man must first have been fined Mr. MANN: This Bill his been introduced £000 before he could be fined £100. If myv to suppress betting-, not to -top tin hare interpretation is wrong, the £500 penalty racing. could never be imposed. [15 NOVEsMEt, 1927.] 1887

Hon. W. J. GEORGE: The £500 penalty 10 or 20 years' time it may be used for a is for the man who uses the mechanical de- totally different purpose. vice, and the £100 penalty for the man who The Premier: We can trust the Parlia- promotes the racing. The person using- it ment of 10 or 20 years hence to deal with may be altogether different from the person any altered situation. who promotes, engages in or takes charge of Mr. MANN: The Premier and the mem- the racing. Clause 3 is merely a drag-iiet ber in charge of the, Bill know that the clause. measure is not well drafted. Mr. NORTH: Certain shareholders may HOn. Sir Jamine Mitchell: The clause as have formed a company to exploit this it stands ropes in everybody. device, and tinder Clause 2 a fine could be inflicted upon them if they paraded the TlJr. MANN: I move an amendment- contrivance for the purpose of advertising That in ie I the word ''promotes'' be it. struck out. Mr. Davy :Whom would you charge Mr. SLEEMAN: I do not know why the tinder Clause 2? lion, member wants to strikQ out "pro- Mr. NORTH: The shareholders, if they motes." The promoter should he liable to paraded this device through the streets in the larger penalty, if there is one. If he order to attract public pLttention. That is struck out of this clause, he will not be would be a ease where they were using the provided for anywhere. Progress should device in connection with the promotion of be reported in order that the matter may racing. They could then suffer the greatest be further considered. penalty. Clause 3 defines certain persons as Mr. CHESSON : I do not understand being liable to a penalty of £100. It is sufli- why the member for Perth wants to strike ciently deterrent to prevent the starting of mg "promotes." The heavier fine should this business. be provided for the promoter. I am not Mr. SLEEMAN: I move- in favour of the Bill, but I recognise the That progress be reported. inconsistency involved in the amendment. The promoter cannot be dissociated ftom Motion put and negatived. the mechanical contrivance. Mr. L~ATHAM: The person who races his Amendment put and negatived. dlogs is liable to a penalty of E100. Clause 2, in my opinion, relates to the mechanical Clause put and passed. side of the business. and Clause 3 to the Title-agreed to. racing side. Mr. SLEEMAN: The principal party in Bill reported without amendment, and this matter is the promoter. He may be the report adopted. fined £100. Upon whom would a fine of £E500 be inflicted? BILL-STATE Mr. RICHARDSON: The man who used CHILDREN ACT AMENDMENT. the mechanical device would be fined £500. Clause 3 relates to those who assist in pro- Returned from the Council with amend- moting tin hare racing, or those who take meonts. part in it. The penalties are well appor- tioned. House adjourned at 10.27 p. Mr. MANN: If we want to make the Bill workable, we should strike out the word "promotcs." It will differentiate between the person who is promoting this contriv- ance, and the person who is making use of it for racing purposes. If we want to make this a good Act, we should amend Clause 3. Mr. Richardson: You do not want an Act at all. Mr. MANN: The Bill is like an illegiti- mate child, which nobody wants; but let us make the best of it. Now we all know that the measure refers to tin hares, bat in