1919. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE.
liece.ssary that the joint resolution shall be passed now. -It -does ~SS UNTIL SATURDAY. not give an undue advantage to any manufacturer in this coun try, and the l'anking member of the mini>rity in the Finance Mr. BRANDEGEE. In .:1ccordance witb the underst.anding Committee has agreed to this amendment :as it is drawn, know hereofore entered into. I move that the Senate no\.v take a .recess ing that it is necessary at this time to protect the industry in until Saturday morning at 10 o'clock. . this manner. The motion was agreed to ; and (at 7 o'clock and 5 minutes p. m.) the Senate, as In .open -executive session, took :a reees. This simply places in the hands of the Department of State until ~aturflay, November 15., 1919~ at 10 o'clock a. m. the power to restrict the importation of certain dyes that are obtainable in this country until January 15, 1920, as an ad interim safeguard. That is all it is. In the meantime the Finance Committee can consider what legislation is necessary, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. protective or otherwise, in order to protect this industry. 1\lr. WILLIAMS. l\1r. President, I recognize this as an emer THURSDAY, Novmnoer 18, 1919. gency measure. I have all·eady impUed that by my observations upon the floor. I so expt·essed myself in the committee. Not The House met at 10 o'cl<>t>k a. ni. withst:mding a long record somewhat .at variance with the The Chaplain, Rev. Henry N. Co-lldl:!n, D. D.; offered the fol- proposition p1·esented, I a~reed that under the particular ci.r lowing prayer : · ' -<.'umstanees as affecting this pa.rticular i11dustry at this par Father in heaven, we thank Thee for tbe cordial and amicable' ticular time I would vote to shut off the impOrtation. relations existing between Great Britain ·and -our Goveniment; ~ow, the Senator tells me that our Americnn industry will be hence -our peopl~ with the Presidffit :and the dign1taries of -State totally ruined by German dum11ing. If the propo~ition is passed and Nation extend a warm greeting to ~r dlstinguisbed gu t just as the Finance Committee ad<>pted it, without thL.; second the Prince of Wales. who represents his 1Uustrious father. . proposition, then importations fi·om Germany a.re cut oil' and Long .may the friendly relations e~is-t between tbe two -great Germany can uot duntp anything upon us in order to ruin our nations as an .example to all the wortd.. industries if the imporbttion is cut off until January 15, as I Once more in the di...9)ensatirin of Thy providence, our F-ather, believe the date is. Nobody can "dump" on you good.; which m-e we called upon to mourn the loss <>f a wen-beloved, wise, he can not import. I agree to forbid importation for the limited hone t, conscientious stare..~.man~ who will be -sorely missed by his time provided in the bill and with the -existing license safe- coll-eagues in the Senate and a host .of friemls thr<>ughout hls guards to check profiteerin..~ · State and Nation. Uay the immortality (Jf the soul comfort Th~re came along ntter that this question; a duty to the them, especially the bereaved children~ tbro:Ugh Bim who died Amencan people was involved. The ultimate consumers, who and rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Amen_ buy the products, in the sha:pe of clothes and medicine, into The Journal of the proceedings of yesterday w.as read and ap which these product~ enter, wer.e concerned. The c~mmlttee proved. took the ·view, and the conm1ittt.-e a<'tcd unanimously, so much ZION NATIO!'iAL PARR. · so that the chairman never even put the motion to the com Mr. SI~TNOTT. Mr. Speaker, I call up eonference re-port mittee, but announced that the committee had agreed that the tt.e on an act to ( S. 425) est.ablish the Zion National Park in the second clause of the ori;rinal hili \v-ould be stricken .out and the State of Utah. second clause was stricken out. The committee agreed to a The Clerk read the report, as follows : report adopting just the 1irst clau e, .and that fir t clause reads as follow.s-- · 1\tr. DIAL. Mr. President-- <.'ONFERENCE REPORT. The PRERIDENT pro t mpore. Does the Senator from ~Ils The committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of 1hc sissippi yield to the Sen a tor from 'South Carolina? two Hou es on the amendments of the House to an .act {S. 425). Mr. WILLIAMS. I will in a moment. That first clause reads to establi:sh the Zion Nationat Park in the State of Ut~ having as foHows.: met, after full and free conference have .agreed to recomme.ud i\nd de recommend to their respectiv~ Houses as follows: · T~at notwithstanding t:he prior termination of the present war, the proVIsions of the trading-w1th-thf'-rn ... my ad, approved Dctober 6 1917 That tbe. Senate recede from its. disagreement to the amend .and of any ·proclamation of thf' Presftlent ls!'lued In pursuance ther<"of ment of tl1e House, and agree to thf' same with an amendment which prohibit or control thf' U:npormtion into the United States or
METROPOLIT-~N POLICE, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Rams£>y Sabath Steenerson Watkins . Rea vi ~ ~ande1:s, I!ld·. · Stephens, l\lis ·. Watson, Pa. Rebet· , andP.I S, N. \:. Stoll Watson, Va. ·1\lr. l\IAPES. l\Ir. Speaker, I call up the bill H. n. 9821 Reed, W. Yn. ..'chall ·· · , ullh:au Webster · on the Speaker's table, ':with a Senate 'aimenciment. Rhodes Scully Summers, Wurh. Wilson, Ill. The Senate amendment was read. RiUdick Sherwooll Taylor, .Ark. Woods, Va. Riordan Shreve Thoma!:; Woodyard l\lr. BLAJ'_J'TON. - 1\fr. SpeaJfer, ·a poi~t of orller. Rodenberg Rinclail· Tincher YatC' · The ·sPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. . Rogers Hlemp Venable 1\Ir. BLANTON. 'rs it not necessary· to have unaniruou · con Rowan . 'mitb, N.Y. Vinson sent? Rucker Bteagall Ward The SPEAKER It i ; but" tlle gentleman has uot yet a ·keu Tlle SPJ-.1. ..\KER. Two hun
'I'he·Clerk uead as follows.: · The second• point· matTe by the director· generatl iS:J that: sueb amounts due by, him ro th-e carriers. for compensation; ete, n:a: tbe·· bill permits A bilL (H. R. 10 153} to· pr.ovJde f I . • . CONGRESSIONAL llEOORD-HOUSE. 8443- l\lr.- DEWALT. M1-. Chairman, the parliamentary situation shall be that which has been fixed upon by. the Director General being as -it is, I now ask unanimous consent that the time stipu-. in some ·ten thousand contracts with siiD.ilar companies, and he lated, to wit, one hour and a half, be divided equally and the might fix a different r.ate in each. It does not mean anything. control thereof be one half with the gentleman from Illinois If this were drawn with the purpose of malting it impossible [Mr. DENISON] anu the other half thereof with myself. to collect any interest from these people, it would probably The CHAIR~IAN. The gentleman from Pennsylvania [:Mr. answer the purpose. . . · · . DEI'i"ALT] asks unanimous consent that debate be in control of This committee is a great committee, many of whom. are the gentleman -from illinois [Mr. DENISON] and the gentleman learned lawyers. I am sure that some of them could ·readily from Pennsyl'rania [Mr. DEWALT], to be equally divided. Is draw a provision that -would meet that difficulty and xnake the there objection? · [After a pause.] The Chair hears none. provision mean what they probably meant. If some clerk has Mr. GARRETT. Mr. Chairman, a parliamentary inquii·y. be~n left to undertake that; they had better undertake it The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state it. themselves. · · . . Mr. GARRETT. Mr. Chairman, I understood the Chaii· to Tpere ar~ three such places in this section 205 ; there will .be state a few moments ago, in response to an inquiry made by the fifty references to other laws necessary in this bill and a thou gentleman from Illinois [Mr. DENISON], that any additional sand references to other contracts required, nnd more· than that,'· amendments should be offered during thls hour and one-half of before any court could pass intelligently upon this section, and debate. · I defy any man to take thls bill ·and tell the House just what The CHAIRMAN. For debate. the first paragraph of 205 means. Mr. GARRETT. Oh, for debate. It 'till be in order at the In order that there may be no question as to the force of sec conclusion of debate to offer amendment ; but they will not be tion 4 of the Federal-control act and paragraph ( u) of section 7 debatable? of the standard contract, here they are: Section 4 of the Federal control act is found in the Fortieth Statutes at Large, page 454, The CHAIRMAN. As the Chair unuerstood t11e inquiry of the and reads as follows: - · gentlem~Ji from Illinois . [Mr. DENrso~]. it was whether, after SEc. 4. That the just compensation that may be determined as here his amendment was voted down, they could then debate other inbefore provided bY agreement or that may be adjudicated by ·the amendments. The Chair stated that all debate on amendments Court of Claims shall be increased by an amount reckoned at a reason would· come within the hom· and a · half.· Of course, -amend able rate per. cent to be fixed by the President upon the .cost of a.ny · additions and betterments, less retirements, and upon the cost of road ment can be offered after the lio.ur. a·nd a half h~s expired on extensions to the property of such carrier made by such carrier with section 205, but no deb~~e can be had after. the expiration of the approval of. or by ordet' of the President while such .property is that time. The gentleman from Illinois [Mr. 'DENrsoNr is rec- u.nder Federal control. ognized. _ . This section states that after just compensation to the rail· ~Ir. DENISON. Mr. Chairman, I yield fi\e minutes to the roads has been determined, that "shall be increased .by an gentleman from ~ansas [Mr. • LITTLE]. amount reckoned at a reasonable rate per cent tQ be fixed by The CHAIRMAN. Tile gentleman from Kansas il? recognizeu the President upon the cost of any additions," ·and so forth. for five minutes. . It says nothing of any interest or of any a_nnual charge. The Mr. LITTLE. Mr. Chairman, thls is Yery important legisla President may add a reasonable per cent in. one lump sum. tion. There will unquestionably be considerable litigation in This was evidently inserted hurriedly without any comprehension regard to it. It is very esseQtial that tws language should be of its purpose and force. The law undertakes to say that the ·o plain and simple that the courts can constnte it without diffi- . interest shall be " the same rate per annum " as that fixed by culty and diverging results. I can not think of anything that the President in this section 4, but he does not fix any rate coulu be more obscure and scattered than · this section 205, per annum or any interest at all in the section 4, and its ins_er· though I approached it with a desire to support it. Let me tion here serves no useful purpose, m~es no law to be fol read to you, on page .10, line 6: · lowed, but simply riles the water so that a legal question must With interest· at the same rate per annum as that fixed by the Presi be precipitated into the courts before anything is settled.· dent as reasonable under section 4 of the Federal control act or under This paragraph (d) of section 7 of an~· agreement between the paragraph (d) of se_ction 7 of the "standard _contract." Director General of Railroads,--- company, and other corpo Just think of a lawyer writing a law and putting in an alter rations" is found only in a lot of contracts or blanks floating native.. Which of them is going to govern? Who is going to around somewhere, and reads as follows : decide? You have a lawsuit on your hands_in a minute as to (d) Upon tbe cost of additions and betterments, less. retirements in connection therewith, and upon the cost of road extensions made to what the rate of interest will be. Suppose it is 4 per cent in tl\e property of the companies . during Federal control, the director section 4 or G per cent in section 7. Which should govern? In general shall, from the completion of the work, pay the company a. a ca e like that the court would almost certainly hold that the reasonable rate of interest, to be fixed by him on each occasion, In fixing such rate or rates he may take into account not merely the value contract was so indefinite that nobody would be compelled to of money but all pertinent facts and circumstances, whether the money pay any inerest whatever, and that would be the result of that used was derived from loans or otherwise, provided that to the extent that the money ts advanced by the Director General or is obtained by regisla tion. the companies from loans or from the proceeds of securities the rate You can not, for example, say that a note is payable to Jones or rates shall be the same as that charged by the Direetor General for or to Smith and make it collectible from anybody. You can not loans to the companies or to other companies of similar credit.· say that a note shall be $400 or $500 and compel anybody to In this section 20{) they ask us to pass, we are· told that the pay it. You should not draw legi lation that way. · Suppose you rate of interest the debtors are to pay the Government will be trace sections 4 and 7 to their sources and analyze that that "fu::ecl by the President under section 4 of the Federal " with interest at the same rate per annum as that fixed by the control act or under paragraph (d) of section 7 of the standard President as reasonable under section 4 of the Federal-control contract, but when you· read this paragraph (d) I have just cited act or under paragraph (d) of section 7 of the standard con there is not a word about the President in it, and he does not tract." There is no interest rate fixed in section 4 of that fix any rate of interest in it, and there is nothing to guide a Federal-control act, absolutely none. It is a rate of such and man reading this bill to any rate of interest under paragraph such per cent as n. lump sum whate\er is allowed them. No (d). Under lea\e to revise, I ask attention to the Director Gen· rate per annum is suggested and interest is not even named. eral's letter, which I had not seen when I began speaking, on This says, "the same rate per annum as that· fixed by the page 840'7 of ye terday's RECORD. He says there are at least President as reasonable under section 4 of the Federal-control two methods in use under paragraph (d), and under one the act or under paragraph (d) of section 7 of the standard con Government would lose. So when we ·trace these two sec tract.1' The President does not fi..-x: anything about that para tions to theit• sources we reach a foundation of nothing. graph (d) of section 7 of the standard contract. The Director Neither of them 'fixes any rate of interest by order of the General of Railroads fixes the interest under paragraph (d) President, and therefore tbis reference falls to the ground and of section 7. The President bas nothing to do with fixing has no force and e:trect. In other words, thls does not attempt to intere t under it, and it has no application at all. fix any rate of interest whatever to be paid. It says that the rate What is that standard contract'! That is not a law. That is· shall be the same as that fixed somewhere else where none· is a l.Jlank contract, gotten up by nobody knows who. · Nobody fix~ . ~ knows what it means. They are going to refer us first to a law If it ue suggested that the Director General is an appointee and then to a contract before we can even guess what this law of the President, and they had him in mind when they said the means. Wby did they not write this section so a man could President, I answer, "·Why did 'not you say so then and make it. . know what the law is as soon a.· he reads the section? They clear?" You did not say Director General because you did not say the ra tc hall ·be fixed by the Director. General as fixed by meap. Director General. The writer simply guesse.U at what was him ' on each occasion." 'l'bere 1night be ten thousand different said in this paragraph (d) and let it go. That is no way to occasions, nnd the rate might .differ on each occasion; and you draw thls characL1· of legislation, so sweeping in its conse- are nl'ked to nmkc :1 lnw to the <'ffect thnt -the_rate of interest . quences to ti1e American people nn!l American business intere ts. '• 8444 ! OVEMBER 13,., But if I sl1oul<.l ndmrt for the· sake of argument, which~ I could:: 1 tlie· railr-oads during the period when- these· improvements wei·e not, that yon meant Director General" wberr you say' P"'tesfdent, ' mmle- tliey would undoubtedly- have been abla to: Uoaow. moneY' Y.:O~ are no· better off.. This paTagrapl"t · (d) says " pay the on long time· and i....<::Sue· tlteil· secun"ties- tfi:erefor ~ ith: which to·· company a. reasonable· rate o~ interest to be fixed by hlin on make the improvement.. each occa ion." Each occasion! Why. there· will be· thousands Now, the· mer.e fact that the· Go ernmen · took contml of the of such settlements, ~d the Director General might fix a differ~ · railroads dUring the war- and- made tbe· improvements without ent .rate of inte~e t in every one, and before a ~ourt ~oulcl eve.~ conl?ultati<:m with tlle ow~er.s of the- railrnads. does: not justify begm to detern:nnEr the effect and purpose and Intention of thiS the Government at this timE'"' in embarrussfilg the people whose law it would be compelled to li t~n to the evidence on the· rate- roads it hos by compelling them to. pay; In• cash. for. p-ermanent of interest on every one and to- .investigate every one, and when1 improvements f'or which they woultl! hav& been· ablEr to· get-long~ all the facts were before it which one would the court hold to time credits· if they-lmd! completed_tli bnsibess; tr.ansaction over be the proper rate for these railroad people to pay the Gov- . which the Government took contrO'J:. That i& a. simpl& proposi.· crnment? There 1B" no. way in the world' any man could lenin tion. w.hat rate of interest is meant by tliis bill if it should become 1\lr• . JUUL. 1\In. Chairman, will the· gentlemm11:vield?· a taw. Yeu can not make rr good ·law by constantfy referring l\[.r; MADDEN. No; t ean rrot- yiP.ld= in tlve·minutes. the reader to some other· law.. You should write ~his law SO' 'l'l1e· CIIA IRMAN. The gentleman deelines to:: yield• that the court can learn from. 1t what yoU' meant Without look- 1\ir. MADDEN. The question arises, Are we going to turu the. ing in some other book. Assu t:ants who· have not learned· that railroaus over to the owners so that. theYi can oper.nte them, or are of no assistance. are we· to throttle the roads by pr.ev.enting th-em from ha¥ing So far as I am concerned I would not argue with tlm coru- the current revenn.e withJ which to• onerate:-the· roads. efficiently? mittee as to the a:mount, but woulu· be willing to leave to their .And are we to be just ot· un.iu~t to the roads?- best judgment what the rate of interest shouT amount fundnble under tile Denison amendment would be $360,-l thi-s reason: In the first place, you wipe Uw slate clean of all 000,000, whereas the amount fundable under the bill as it is transactions arising out of Federal control, and, in the next now written would be ."641,000,000, exclusi\e of certain long- place, you compel tllese roads to pay the Federal Gowrnment term advance and other indebtedness. In a statement which the same rates of interest for the money that they get under I receiYed yesterday, and which other members of the commit- that account that other roads will pay that come in and bor tee 1·eceived, from Mr. Sherley, director of finance under the row afterwards from the Go\ernment, because we provide G Federal administration, ·this takes into account $279,000,000 per cent l1ere, and under the bill as it is now written thi · which is to be left in the treasury of these railroads for work· additional amount m~y be kept by the roads at a rate as low ing capital, which is practically the amount they claim that is as 5 per cent or 4-l per cent or such other \ariable rate as may necessary for one month's operating expenses. be fixed under the standard contract for money advanced or as Now, gentlemen, it seems to me that we have gone far enough a return upon the amount of betterments anti additions charge when we continue for six months the standard return which able to capital account. they have been 1·eceiving from Federal control, continue present Mr. DEWALT. l\fr. Chairman, I yield :fi:re minute · to th rates, and loan them money for five years. gentleman from Maryland [Mr. BENSON]. It is idle "to speculate, as the gentleman from Illinois seems Mr. BENSON. l\Ir. Chairman and gentlemen, I 'lvant, if I to do, that if the Government had not taken over these roads can, to try · and make this situation clear as to facts. Anyone_ they would have ·been able to ha\e expended all the money that who lmows anything about financing and accounting of pubJ.ic· has been necessary for capital expenses by borrowing the service corporations h.'"llows that there is a distinction between money. · It is not true that in the past the railroads hay-e bor-: capital inYestment and operating expenses, and that if you rowed all the money that they put into capital account, which attempt to pay for capital iny-estments out of current operating i represented by extensions and betterments of roads and receipts, where you have a regulation of rates, and attempt to equipments; but the gentleman from Illinois and those . who giy-e the carrier. sufficient money to carry on its business. then repre ent the bill as it is now written, seem to predicate their you hay-e got to raise the rate. objections to the Denison amendment upon the assumption that The very purpose that my distinguisheu fliend who has just if the roads had not been taken over by the Government·an the spoken has in behalf of the people in this country 'vill not be capital account would ha\e been bori·owed money on long realized if you make the capital iny-estment of the railroads a terms. Now, that is not true, because, although the roads bor- set-o_ff against operating revenue. It can not be done. It i · rowed some of their money in ordinary times to build exten- not allowed in your income reports. You know that when you sions and equipment and betterments, it does not follow that pay your income tax, if ron make a capital inY"estment, you can· they borrowed all the money. Very frequently prosperous not charge it to ordinary expenses. When they make up an road ·, that will be unnecessarily benefited by this bill as it is income tax the railroads will not be allowed to do so; "\\hen they now written, are able to invest in betterments and extensions go before the Interstate Commerce Commission to ask an in and equipment from money that they earn from current funds crease of rates they -\y-ill not be allowed to put in as operating or from their surplus. expenses the capital in\estment forced on them by the Go\- Mr. P AnKER. Will the gentleman yield? ernment. M1·. BARKLEY. I have not the time to yield. Therefore, as a · matter of fact, if we do not help them Mr. PARKER. You made a statement about the money-- to finance at this time these capital investments they will Mr. BARKLEY.- I ha\e not yielded, but I will permit the have to go into the market at the present high rate of money gentleman to ask his· questl~n. . and finance them themselves. Ani:l the inability to do so i~ Mr. PARKER. The gentleman made the statement that under going to put many of the'railroads into the hands of receiY"ers. one plan the Go\ernment would loan the railroadH $250,000,000, There are some parts of the argument made by the gentlemen did he not? on the other side that, I think, are unfair, because they attempt l\lr. BARKLEY. ·· I said the difference between the two to make it appear that the railroads are going to ha\e more plans repre.sents practically $200,000,000 on the side of the money in their hands than they ey-er had before. Go¥ernment. On page 11 it is provided that there shall be an offset of what Mr. P AnKER. I beg to correct the gentleman's figuTes. the railroads owe the GoYernment is against what the Go\- 1.\Ir. BARKLEY. The gentleman will ha\e time, and I hope ernment owes them; to the extent of any excess over our con- he will take it. · tract with the raih·oad to pay them their operating expense.· l\Ir. PARKER. The gentleman does -not take into considera- and such dividends as they haYe earned during the period they tion the short-time note·. had arranged in the ·contract prior to the war. If there i any 1.\fr. BARKLEY. Oh, yes; I do. I take into con idC'ration excess due by the railroads to the Government, it will be paid, $138,000,000 which is represented by demand note . .. even though it is on capital account, except allowing for sutli- 1.\lr. PARKER. It is "16,000,000 on one side and 158,000,000 cient to pay their debts and dividends on the average that you on the other. · gentlemen in previous legislation have already agreed to do. l\Ir. BARKLEY. In other word , if the Denison amendment Therefore, gentlemen, it seems to me that H we are going is adopted, ·the difference in behalf of the United States Go\- to turn the railroads back-and it seems to be the unanimou, · ernment will amount to practically $250,000,000; ancl if it is not opinion o.f Congress that it is better to have them operated adopted, we must raise that $250,000,000 either by taxing the under pnvate control than Government control-turn them American people or· by selling more bonds in order to get the back in such a wuy that they will not be crippled, in such a money for the Treasury to allow the roads to keep that money way that they can go ahead and prosper; and when a railroa side, then I uUbmit that the -betterments ean- just as well be . It is definite and fixed. Whatever the Pre ident says shall be , bonded after the railroads regain contxol of their lines as they the interest paid to the carriers for the use of these betterments l c<>uld have been bonded before the betterments were made. · shall be the interest that the carriers must pay on the deferred i ·In addition to that we provide in this bill that the Govern payments of the co t of these very betterments. ·Is not that I ment will loan the railroads moriey, and, mark you now, gentle fair play, gentlemen? Now, again, the gentleman from Alabama 1 men, that when the Government loans the railroads money the sald-- Government dictates the character of securities that the rail Mr. LITTLE. Will the gentleman yield? -roads· shall give it, whereas if you permit the railroads to fail l\lr. GRAH.Al\1 of Pennsylvania. Not for a minute. Let us 1 to ·settle with the Government at the end of Federal control you pUt theSe tWO claimS togethel.'-the ChargeS Ulld the CreditS_:_ I have made your Gov-ernment pay the railroads doJlar fo.r;- dol and strike a balance and have a settlement now. That is not lar, and then you put it in the power of the railroad companies fair, gentlemen. This capital account for betterments is made to give to the Government its demand notes for what it owes. by the carriers out of loans; not always so, but scarcely ever th-e GOvernment without any security at all. You permit the made otherwise. The railroads could not -borrow the money to raih·oads to settle with the Government with chips and whet make these betterments. The Government advanced it. This stones, but y"Ou -compel the Government to settle with the ran represents- a capital accotmt, and ought to be considered as a roads with honest dollars furnished by the taxpayers. Can· separate item from the current expenses that were . brought you justify taxing the people $250,000,000 which. in the very about on the l'ailroads through Government oontrol and nature of-the contract, inay be a ·gift to the railroads? operation. · Read page ~0, it you will, lines 15 to 19·: The CHAIRMAN. The Ume of the gentleman has expired. Sueb indebtedness-- Mr. GRAHAM -of Pennsylvania.. Can the gentleman gln~ me th1·ee minnt<•s additional? . Speaking of what the railroads will owe us- :Mr. DEWALT. I yield the gentleman two minutes more. . Such indebtedness will be evidenced, if practkai, by first-mortgage 1\Ir. GRAHAl\1 of Pennsylvania. I have jnst one thought in bonds -of the carrier. closing. There are other things I would like to say. ' I want to Why, there was· never anything written in a bill so deceptive can your attention to this question of offset. You read your bill, as that. study the proviRion of the committee reported bill, and you will Mr. COADY. WiU the gentleman yield? find that there is a provision for offset down to this extent, Umt Mr. SAJ.'-TDEllS of Louisiana. I can not yield-because there only so much as is required to pay charges-due from the carriers is not a single railroad in America to-day., from the most pros to stockholders. and bondholde1·s is to be reserved plus one rwrous to the most iusolvent. but \Yllat bas outStanding mortgage month's operating ex~nses, and the balance only is to be funded bonds, and theref(lrc ""t:' -can not get first-mortgage bonds for which is ieft after chat-ging .or setting off th~ indebtednes." of ·what the railroads "Owe the Gmrernment. the 1·ailroad with these exceptions which I have named. The You will never get a first-mortgage· bond under this bill. It Denison amendment simply changes the time for payment of is a deception to have placed it in the bHL , You will take in the this account spent for betterments and provides that ~t shall be :Cnal analysis, when you come to settle, whatever the railroads · divided into 10 equal P._arts, 1 part of which shall be paid each otl'er-rernember uow, you have already paJd the railr"Oads, you year beginning five years after discharge -of the carriers f\'Olll ba ve got nothing to negotiate, you have got nothing to figure Federal control, while the bill as it comes from the committee with tbem -on. ·you have already paid them, and wben you come giv_e 10 years. Let us give these carriers a fair opportunity to uegotiate a settlement as to what they owe you, you will take again to serve the country and to restot·e transportation to its their demand notes. :no matter whether tht>y are secured o.r not, normal condition. We will have a better system of transporta ,no matt~r hnw worthle they may be. [Applause.] tion than anything that the Governm nt could possibly .ufforu us. The CHAIRl\IAN. 'I'he_tirne of 1he -;rentleman has expired. Let us give them a chance to start out in their work and not Mr. DE'VALT. J.fr. Chairman, I yield five minutes to my handicap them by requiring payments that are unfair by exact colleague from Penn"&ylvania {1\lr. -GRAHAM]. [Applause.] ing from them the payment of cunent funds and -so cripp\e them Mr. GRAHAM of PennsylYania. Mr. Chairman and gentle that they will be unable to borrow money that will be nece . ary n~en of the committee,. it ha well been sai1l that this is the to be ex:Pended in improving their roads and putting their egnip most important pa:rt. perhaps. of this bill. The discussion of it meiit in condition tit for use in their work. {Applause.] is not to b considered from the standpoint of antagonism be The CHAIRMAN. The time of the· gentleman has again i'X:· tween the Government and the railroad . The railroad trans ~~ . portation of this country is as important almost as the G{)-vern 1\lr. DEl~ISON. Mt·. Chah·man, I yield five minutes to the -ment its~ anu the ucccss and prosperity of -our citizens and gentleman from Tenness~ [_Mr. SIMS]. . the welfare of the Government d epends Ul10ll starting these Mr. SIMS. · Mr. Chairman, following the distinguishau g nllc railroads out upon the right ba..cds. IApplaUS?.] The railroads, m.an from Penn,sylvan~a (1\lr. GRAITAM] who has just taken his if you "ill pardon the expr n seat, I 'vant to say, as the gentleman well knows, that any im sandbagged. while things have been thrust upon them on the provements made by t11e Government exclusively for war pur cJebit side while they have bad no opportunity to receive the poses is not charged up to the roads at all. The Government credits. As I underst-ood it, when the President of the United lQses aU that. Now, a permanent improvement is not an im S'h.lt(>S adore~ sen us ·when tbe Adamson law was passed he provement consumable in temporm~y use like equipment. The r,romised that the Inter~tate Commerce Commission should rem . Government made permanent improvements on these .ron r·oads edy certain def-ects m· the then existing rates to meet the new out of the taxpayers• pockets which were not lmpaired ln the requirements which the incr ase of wages and the diminution use of them by the Government, and If the Government had not of the hours of labor put upon those- railroads. inade these improvements the roads could not have made them Now, remember, g{'ritlemen, the carriers' property was taken. for themselves, as they could not borrow the money, and there rtot given. We orde.red it to be taken, We are the ones to fore the .ownf'-rs would have tlw railroads now on their bands at set- that a settl~ent is made in a spirit of equJty and fail· play. end of control In a ' condition that they could not operate them This is not a partisan question. Thls is a question of equity successfully if at all. and justice. OnE> of my co'lleagues .here has spoken about the Perman(>nt improvements run i)ver many years anti, if main inter('st rate. Can there be anything fairer than that which is tained properly, forever. Are you going to say that rail provided in the bill as reported 11·om tl1e rommittee? This roads Otl1J;ht to be out of the bands of a 1·eceiver t11at can not money called the capital -account was expended for better borrow money to the extent the set-off may require'l If we ment._, additions, and it is properly separable from the current have reached a point in railroading ,fn this country when the accounts that were incurre MESSAGE Jo'TIO)[ THE PllESIDEXT OF THE U~ITED ST-ATES. have would be tlpon the employees of the 1·allroads, and there are 2,000,000 of these. 'Thl · large .and worthy class of people The committee informally ro e; and :Mr. GREE~E of \erruont .are entitled to haYe tlu~ir interests and welfare considered. llaYing taken the chair as Speaker pro tempore, a message in The railroads cnn not pay adeqilll.te wages to theil.· employees writiiig from t11e President of the United States, by Mr. Sbarkey, unle · · they can be successfully operated. .,..rhe e are important one of his secretai·ies, informed the House of Representatives considerations, but the most important of all is "·hat effect it i · that bills. of t11e follo·wing numbers and titles, having been going to haYe u!_)on the _public. The transportation system of the his presented to the President of the United States for ap country is the most important of all element of our c-ommer· proyaJ, and not having been returned by him to the House of cial and industrial prosperity. T"t'ansportation ls the Yery life Congress in which they originated within the time prescribed by the Constitution of the United Stutes: haYe become laws without blood of the Nation, and unless these roaus can operate suc his approval : cessfully th.eir fuilnre will strangle bnsine ·s, with all the ills Presented October 2.3, 1919: attendant upon strangulation. H. n. 333. An net providing for the d.iJ interment ant.l remo\al The Go\ernment has ma.de large expenditure.· for permanent of the remains of the infant child, Norman Lee Molzahn, from betterments and impro\ements. If these had been made by the the temporary burial site in the Disl:rict of Columbia to a railroads them elves under prtmte control they would of neces· permanent bm·ial place: sity ha•e been paid for by the sale of long-time secru·iti.es~ They_ II. R. 446. An net authorizing the Commissioner of Indian are properly· chargeable to capital account: No railroad or other Affairs to transfer fractional block 6, Naylor's addition, Forest busine s would attempt to make large and extensive capital Grow, Oreg., to the United States of America, for the use of inye tment from current income. Ordinru·ily Olis would be im the Bureau of En'tomology, Department of Agriculture; possible, and yet that is just what is proposed if \Ye are to set off H. R. 753. An act for the relief of Susie Currier; the inuebtedness of the Government under the standanl conttact H. R. 2452. An act for the relief of Charles A. Carey ; and again t the .amount of capital investment made uy the Govern· II. R. 5007. An act granting citizenship to certain Indian . menton behalf of the railronds during Federal controL If we do Pre. ented October 27, 1919: this we shall turn .the railroads back to their owners under such H. J . Res.1GL Joint 1:esolution to Pl'Ovide additional compen- · conditions that for many of them it will mean disaster. W~ sation for employee of the Postal Service, and making an appro- ought not to do this. E\ery intere: t of the public, of the em 11riation therefor. ployee, and of the stockholder demand fair, jtl! t, liberal treat Presented October ~!), 1919: ment of the railroaas. H. R. 9782.. A.n act to r~fTtllate further tlle enh·y of aliens into The business nnd pro perity of every part of tile country arc the United State·. linked up with the railroads in a mot \i.tal way. In my own Pre. ented October 31, 1910: section of the country, New Englanu, this is particularly true. H. R 9697. An act to e:rtend the time for the con truction of a We are largely dependent upon the succes ·of our manufacturing industries, and these in turn .are dependent in large measnre bridge acros~ Pearl River, between Pearl lliYet· County, Miss., and Washington Parish, La. upon successful railroad operation. We must bring our coal Also, that on Koveml>er 13, 1919, the President appro\e tlie Governnient 'What is the· Government? The Government not kilo-wn 'vhat they .were talking about. You mtist not ex)) 'ct is the aggregation of the 'people residlng in this"cotmtry, nm:~efy, me to indulge in any airy persiflage; ron must not expect me over 100,000,000 of people. Therefore wllen you speak of the to rely solely upon lung power ; you must not look to me to be a jnterest of the Government you speak of 'the interest of the profaner of the millionaire railroads nor on the other hand to ~~ . . . . be a contender for or against the great number of o'ther road' This sthemc resolves itself into a clear lmsiness proposition. which are not millionaire roads. '.rhe gentleman from Pcnn~yl What is it? It may be epitomized and syllogized in this way: vania [Mr. DEwALT] has very accurately described the situation The amount paid by the United States ·Government duririg the that really e::\.r:ists, so that we can come to a discussion of the period of the war control · in capital expenditure for various funding without any delay. Accept hi. word, if you please, as raih·oa road Administration and the railroads as to the exact rate of The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Iowa has interest to be charged the roads in the account in question. expired. The elements that enter into productive and unproductive Mr. BARKLEY. Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to the investment have not been determined. If they should decide amendment. .on 5, or 4, or 3 p~r cent, it would be because they took those 1\Ir. RAYBURK 1\Ir. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent two elements into account, and it should not be regarded as a that the amendment be again reported. standard rate of interest. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the amendment will be We want to be jUst and we want to be generous to the rail again read. roads to the limit. ·we do not, however, want to fool away any The amendment was again reported. extra money. The Government must turn the roads back in as 1\!r. BARKLEY. 1\fr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to the good condition as it found them in, and return their supplies in amendment for the purpose of asking a question. We all desire kind-pay for them a present value. [Applause.] to accomplish the same purpose. The CHAIRMAN. The tlme of the gentleman has expired. Mr. SWEET. It is only to clarify and make certain the lan All time has expired. The question is on the amendment of the guage of the bill. gentleman from ll!inois [Mr. DENISON] to strike out and ins rt. 1\Ir. BARKLEY. But I have a little apprehension about the The question was taken, and the Chair announced that the interpretation that may be put upon the gentleman's language. ayes seemed to have it. All these charges include rates on interstate commerce as well 1\Ir. DEWALT. · 1\Ir. Chairman, I ask for a division. as rates on intrastate commerce. By merely inserting the words The· committee divided ; and there were-ayes 134, noes G9. "by Federal or State authority," do not you leave it somewhat So the amendment was agreed to. in doubt whether a State authority might pass upon .an inter The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will state that, having adopted state rate or the Interstate Commerce Commission might pass the motion to strike out and insert, the motion of the gentleman upon an intrastate rate? Should there not be some definite from Louisiana [Mr. SANDERs] to .strike out the section falls language inserted, expressing the jurisdiction, so that there thereby. The Clerk will read. would not be a concurrent jurisdiction to pass upon interstate Mr. SNELL. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to and intrastate rates? revise and exten EXISTING RATES TO COXTINUE I~ EFFECT. by the committee and by the Interstate Commerce Commission SEc. 206. All rates, fares, and c.harges, all divisions of joint rates, itself. The phrase "by a1}thority of law" of course means and all classifications, regulations. and practices in anywise changing-, whatever authority there is to pass on rates, and it would ln. affecting, or determining any part or the aggregate of rates, fares, or elude both the Interstate Commerce Commission and the various charges, or the value of the service rendered, which immediately pre in ceding the termination of Federal control are in effect on the lines of State commissions. But if yon put them interchangeably you carriers t>Ubject to the commerce act, shall continue in force and effect might lead to the unintentional conclusion that one or the until thereafter changed by or pursuant to authority of law; but this other might pass on one or the other rates. shall not be construed ·as affecting the rights of any party to a proceed ing involving rates, fares, charges, classifications, regulations, or prac 1\Ir. SWEET. No; I think not; because it refers back to the tices which bas been or may be instituted under the commerce act or word "law," and it makes it clear that it refers to the laws of other law. . the States and also the Federal Government. .Mr. SWEET. 1\Ir. Chairman, I offer an amendment. Mr. BARKLEY. I think I shall offer an amendment of but The CHAIRMA...."N' . . The gentleman from Iowa offers an amend just one word after your amendment, "by State or Federal ment, which the Clerk will report. authority," by putting in the word "respectively." The Clerk read as follows : 1\lr. SWEET. I did not get the word. 1\fr. BARKLEY. The word "respectively." · Amendment offered by Mr. SwEET: Insert after the word "by," i.:J. line "23, page 12, the words " State or Federal authorities." 1\Ir. SWEET. I will not object to that. l\Ir. SEARS. 1\fr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield? The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Iowa is recognized. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Kentucky [l\Ir. 1\Ir. SWEET. Mr. Chairman, I want to call the committee's BABKLEY] has the floor. ' attention to the provisions of section 206. It provides that: 1\Ir. BARKLEY. I "\'\-ill yield to the gentleman if he wants to All rates, fares, and charges, all divisicms of joint rates, and all ask a question. clas itlcaions, regulations, and practices in anywise changing, affect ing, or determining any part or the aggr~gate of rates fares, or . 1\fr. SEARS. I would make thls suggestion: At the end of charges, or the vah.:e of the service rendered, which immediately pre the paragraph strike out the period and insert a semicolon and ceding the termination of Federal control are in effect on the lines add the following: " Pro,;·ided, That nothiiig in this section shall of carriers subject to the commerc~ act, shall continue in force and effect until thereafter changed by or pursuant to authority of law. be construed to include intrastate shipments." Mr. BARKLEY. That is not the intention. They are con· You will observe that the language is "pursuant to authority tinned until the proper State authorities can pass upon them. of law." Otherwise they would go back to the prewar rates. The rates that are now in force will remain in force and , The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Kentucky, effect after the roads go back to private ownership, ·and the has expired. The question is on agreeing to the amendment question naturally arises as to the authority of the State com offered by the gentleman from Iowa [Mr. SwEET]. mi sions to change or modify intrastate freight or passenger Mr. BARKLEY. 1\fr. Chairman, I offer an amendment, to rates. The language used is "pursuant to ·authority of law," add the word " respectively " after the gentleman's amendment. and it was the intention of the committee and the drafters of 1\Ir. SWEET. I accept that. the bill that when the roads were turned back to private The CHAIRMAN. · The 'Clerk will report the amendmenfi ownership the State commissions should have power to change offered by the gentleman from Kentucky. and modify intrastate rates, and that the Interstate' Conimerce The Clerk read as follows: Commission would have authority to change and modify inter state rates. And it is only because of the construction that might Amendment offered by Mr. BARKLEY to the amendment offered by Mr, be ~laced upon the language in this section that I have offered SwEET: After the Sweet amei:dment ~dd the word "respectively." , this amendment. The amendment is inserted after the word The CHAIR~fA.l'l. The Clerk .will read the Sweet amend " by " in line 23, and consists of the words " State or Federal ment as modified by the Barkley amendment. authorities." It makes the proposition clear that it iS the in- . The Clerk read as follows: tention of Congress that the State commissions will have Amendment offered by Mr. SwEET as modified by the Barkley jurisdiction over rates, fares, and charges as to intrastate amendment: Insert, after the word "by,~· in line 23, on page 12, the bu iness. It prevents any other construction being placed ''ord ~ "Feue1:a1 or State authorities, respecth'clr." upon it. I do not liDderstand that the chairman of the com- l\1r. GRAHAM of Pennsylvania. Mr. Chairman, it seems to mittee has any objection to this amendment. me the addition sought to be made to this paragraph does not 1\Ir. NEWTON of Minnesota. ""\Yill the gentleman yield there? clarify it at all. It seems to me it should be left as it is, "until Mr. s ·wEET. I will. thereafter changed by or pursuant to authority of law.•• That Mr. NEWTON of :Minnesota. This carries out the effect of means, of course, the authority of the Interstate Commerc~ the 1egislation ·passed by Congress six weeks ago in the so-called ·Commission where it applies, and the authority of the State · Cummins bill-S.'641? . · commission where it applies. If we substitute this language, 1\Ir. SWEET. It o.oes. · it might seem as if it were alternative. LVIII--533 dONGRESSIO AL RECORD-HOUSE. l OVE1 IBER 13, Mr. S"-~ET. No. This is as to the wnstruction of tbe eeptlng. however, from s:ucb rallroa.ds nnt under Federal control any street or interurban electric railway which has as its principal source law that is to be in force and effect, and this is a recognition of opa-a.ting revenue tlrban, sulmrban, or intc.rurllan passenger traffic of th~ fact that the State commission shall have authority ov~r or sale of power, heat, and light, or botb-t nnd ~2) which, within GO tntrastate rates. days a.fter the termination of FedE'I:UJ ·control as provided tn s ctlon 200, bas filPd with tf}e Interstate Commerce Commil!:sion schedul <> em The CHAIRMAN. The que ~ tlon is on agreeing to the amend· bod.ring general increases h. 1t rates, fares, anu charges : ment offered by the gent! man from Kentucky to the amend· The term " guaranty Jl('riod " means the first si.:t months af tee the ment offered by the ..,.entleman from Iowa [1\Ir. SwEET]. termination of Federal control ; and The tE'rm .. test period " means the three y ars ending .June 30, 1917. The amendment to the amendment was agreed to. (b) The Un1ted States h ereby guarantees t o each carrle.r tllat its The CHAIRMAN. The question is on agreeing to the amend· railway o~rating income for the gua.ranty period a a whole shall not ment offered by the , gentleman from Iowa [Mr. SwEET] as be less than the average of its railw y opernting income for the three corresponding period of six months each d:urlng the test period. If amended by the gentleman from Kentucky. during such corresponding periods in the te t period, avet·aged togethex:, The question was taken, and the Chairman announe d bat the carrier bad no railway overatlng incom the guaranty shall b!' the the ayes appeared to have it. amount by which any rl eneit in il: llwa;y opentting income far the guaranty period as a whole ~:>xceed . s the de.ficit for the tlll·e.c corresponu Mr. SUMNERS of Texas. A division, 1\Ir. Chairman. ing periods during the t~:>st period. averagPd together. The CHAIRMAN. A division is asked for. · {c) For the purposes of this ection the l'ailwuy operntlng in('Ome The committee divided; and there were-ayes 73, noes 11. for the peri{)dB during the te t p<>riod corr ponding to the l!tlar nty period shall be computed in the manner provided tor in section"'1 of the So the amendment was agreed to. Federal control act. The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will read. (d) In computing railway operating income for the guaranty ~ t· Iod Mr. MOORE Qf Virginia. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike for the purposes of this section- (1) Debit and cr dits arising from the a.cc.ounts, .canea in the out the l:u~t word. month!y report to the IntPrs.tate Comnwrcc Comml ion eqwpment The CHAIRl\lAL'l. The gentleman from Virginia moves to rent~ nnd joint facility r·ents. shall be included, .but debits and credits arising from the operation of such stJ·Pet electric pa nge.r railways strike out the last word. including railways commonlj called interurba.D.s, as ru·c not under Mr. MOORE of Virginia. I do so, Mr. Chairman, for the Federal control at the time o termination ther~of, shall be <'Xcluded · pm·pose of calling the attention of the committee to one matter (2) Propet· adjustments shall be mad~ (a) in ·cpntrol, or has reason to bel~eve that it will make ,the sta~d.ard which it made in the best three years of its pre-Government return during t11e first six months, will not make any applica control exiStence. tion. Therefore the Government of the United States will not - Mr. GREEl'iE of Vermont. Will the gentleman yield for n. have the benefit that it now has. It now operates all the rail question? roads as one railroad sy8tem, and it guarantees a return to Mr. SIMS. Yes. them as a whole equal to the return of each road for the best Mr. GREENE of Vermont. The gentleman has Just referred three years of its life-the test period. - to the question of wages. We have imposed, by fiat of law, Now, if we are going to continue the guaranty at all, we upon these railroads, which are now about to resume operations should continue it as to s.ll railroads and take from every road under private control, a standard of wages which they never tbat makes more than the standard return the excess·, so as to would have made themselves under natural conditions. help take care of those roads that make deficits. - The only 1\Ir. SIMS. - The gentleman is making a statement. _ object of this is to take care of the roads that have every Mr. GREENE of Vermont. No; I am asking a question. The reason to believe that they can not make the standard return. proposition is simply this: We have arbitrarily imposed, by Now, on those roads there will be no incentive whatever duiing fiat of law, a standard of wages which we now ask them to the six months to exercise any economies, to reduce costs of reach and pay by the natural law of trade. How are you going labor, or in the purchase of materials for less than had to be to reconcile those two propositions? paid during the war. I mean there will be no inducement in 1\Ir. SIMS. I have just stated that we ha-ve also gh·en an the nature of compulsion. Naturally, I suppose, every rail arbitrary increase of rates, and the roads have six months road, even if it expects the standard return to the extent that in which to increase rates, and we propose to loan them it does not make it, will do its best to· reduce expenses, knowing .ull the money they need during that time. Therefore the that after the six months it will have to do so. But suppose guaranty is a subsidy, nothing but a subsidy. Every public that these roads, or any number of them-which-may be quite utility in the United States is in the same shape as are the possible-do not make the standard return, and at the end of railroads as to wages, though not under Government control. the six months conditions are such that they can not make it 1\ir. ESCH. Mr. Chairman, the necessity for maintaining for the next six months. As a matter of precedE::nt and the reason the guaranty for a period of six months must be eYident to for the guaranty we should continue the same subsidy-for that everyone who realizes the tremendous increase in cost of the is all it is-for any subsequent period necessary for the roads operation imposed on the carriers, as was suggested by the that have not made the standard return during the six months gentleman from Yermont, by fiat. The railroads did not have to enable them to.get where they can make it. anything to say about the amount or as to the cost of material. Now, this is simply a case of -volunteering to secure profits That was fixed by governmental agency. The total increase of .on the roads after they have been returned to their owners. wages in 1919 through Government agency was practically In other words, we· are paying the railroads to take back that $1,000,000,000. The increase this year will possibly be larger which they want and are anxious to have, and then we give the than that by reason of the fact that the shopmen have recently loaning and refunding privileges to take care of them in addi had an increase granted through the Director General, retro tion. ~Y road that has the slightest prospect of making the active to the 1st of May, which will increase the wage scale standard return at the end of six months the Government will $45,000,000 per annum. . loan it any money that it needs during the time and· give it a Now, under these ci1·cumstances we felt that we were obligated reasonable time in which to pay that loan. to maintain th~ standard return for a periou of six months The CHAIRMAN; The time of the gentleman has expired. until such time as the Interstate Commerce Commission could Mr. SIMS. I ask unanimous consent to proceed for five adjust the level of rates to meet the increased cost. 'Ve are minutes. paying the deficit which has occurred under Federal <:ontrol. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Tennessee asks We hope that when the roads are returned through the standard unanimous consent to proceed for five minutes. Is there objec return guaranty of six months the commission will adjust the tion? level of rates so as to permit the roads to stand alone. That There was no .objection. is why we are putting in the guaranty. Mr. SIMS. Now, my friends, this standard return has got Mr. RAMSEYER. 'Vlll the gentleman yield? to be paid out of the Federal Treasury, in which there is not 1\Ir. ESOH. Yes. to-day a net-dollar. Mr. RAMSEYER. .Why six months; why not make it a year? Mr. BLACK. Will the gentleman- yield? Is it to give the commission an opportunity to adjust it, and does 1\fr. Sil\fS. I yield to the gentleman from Texas. the gentleman think it can be done in six months? Mr. BLACK. Will the gentleman explain just this feature 1\!r. ESOH. We took it up with the Interstate Commerce Com· of the matter? We have granted rate increases of about 25 mission, and with mo months for notice and four months for per cent, and I suppose that will amount to something over determination they say that it can be done. $1,000,000,000 a year, will it not? 1\Ir; SEARS. Will the gentleman yield? -Mr. SIMS. I should think so. Mr. IDSCH. Yes. Mr. BLACK. Alid my understanding is that the wage in · Mr. SEARS. The gentleman has stated the increased cost of creases which the Government has given to the employees-! wages. What has been the result of the increase in the 25 per d.o not criticize them at all~will amount to practically as much cent freight rates and the 1 per cent passenger rates? as the rnte increases. Therefore does the gentleman think Mr. ESOH. Between $900,000,000 and $1,000,000,000. that the railroads will be able to meet their interest obligations 1\Ir. SEARS. So that it is about the same as·the other. with the present freight rates or until they are increased? Mr. GREID'\TE of Vermont. Will the gentleman allow me to Mr. SIMS. They might not if the maturing obligations came make a suggestion? within the six months, but we will loan tLem the money if they 1\Ir. ESCH. Yes. need it. So that is all out of the way. Mr. GREENE of Vermont. The question of wages is only Now, -the war rates are continued by this bill. The rate one of the factors. would continue until otherwise ordered if it was not in the bill, 1\Ir. ESCH. I said that the cost of materials and a lot of in my opinion, and then we propose to give them an oppor other fa-cts entered into the matter. tunity to refund anything that they owe under the terms of the l\lr. SNYDER. Will the gentleman yield? bill and loan them any money that they need. Now, why do Mr. ESCH. I will. you want to vote them a pure subsidy? 1\Ir. SNYDER. I want to ask the gentleman if he has taken Gentlemen talk about increased wages. Of course, there into consideration the fact that at the present time under Federal has been an increase in wages. There has been an increase in control they control not only the railroads but the express, and everything more than proportionate to the increase in wages; when the roads are turned -back the express companies will but we expect a decline in wages if the cost of living &.nd ma take the receipts that are now received for carrying local freight? terial decrease, but no great decline; but that will be the natural 1\fr. ESCH. I have an amendment that will cover that. tendeucy. \Ve will expect and, no doubt, get an economical 1\Ir. SNYDER. The gentleman understands what I mean; un administration of each individual road by its owners, who will der the present operation of local freight the business of the operate it possibly more economically than the roads could be country has absolutely broken down. _ . · opera ted under war conditions. Therefore, inasmuch as the The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Wisconsin Government has no money and we have got to collect it by taxes has expired. - _ or borrow it on loans, I do Iiot think we should borrow from the Mr. CONNALLY. 1\lr. Chairman; I favor the adoption of the ta.A-payer by compulsion and give it to a railroad that can not amendment of the gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. SIMS] to make the standard return during the first six months after it strike out section 207 of the bill. It is in that section that pro goes ba~k into ·the hands of its owner, or can not make that vision is made that the Goyernment guarantee to each railroad 8454 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD.-H_O.USE·. which has at any time bee-n under Federal control that its income amounts to legislative- Iate making instead of judicial ~ate for the first six months after the termination of Federal control making by the- commi ion~ shall riot be le than its average income for tbe corres-ponding We have all believed that tha counn•y was to receive from the pet·iods in 1915, 1916, and 1917. In addition to discussing the return of the· roads to pt1vate ownership either a reduction tn amendment to stril;:e out tbe section, I desire to submit some ratee or more effictent admini tration of the railways. If the observutions concerning my objections to other provLsi · d d irous·of Mr SNYDER. Does the gentleman. think that a railroad ~ am~le w~rrnn~ .~~r t~h~:~~a~o~~ r:t sh~:!'e SU~ 1 · :• k I . , ·' 'reswtetl. in_._ the: deStruction j}f .suob comp.etitiQil and_ has· be-' t~ the ' peopl~ is often-' to' invite indifferei!CC to .the right& arid ap-"': gotten a degree of disregard for the public convenience. peals of the people. ·Under subdivisions 17 to 19 of section 402 lines of railroad are The exercise from Washington of war-time powers by the uenied the right to builq a ·new line of raih·oad or an extension various boards and bureaus created for the war emergency, without the consent of the commission. This action further which entailed many fretful annoyances and vexatious incon gives the commission sweeping power to control. th~ entire· car veniences to the people and to the business of the country, has service of all railways, including" the use, control. supply, moy-e-· ·demonstrated very forcefully the objections whicll may be· justly ment, distribution, exchange, interchange, and return of loco urged against the extension of such powers In time of peace. l\1y · motive. , cars, and other vehicles used in the transportation own hope is that emergency restrictions and interference with .of property and tl1e supply, movement, anq operation of trains the accustomea activities and business of the people may be lJy any ·carrier by railroad subject to this act." · speedily removed and the country be permitted to again re. . umc Thls section confe~·s upon the Federal commission absolute its normal relations and functions. · and autocratic power to distribute, allocate, .and control the CO~CLt:iSIOX. movement of all cars and locomotives without consideration of the ownership of such equipment. Localities or sections of The problem of · tmnsportation is one of the greatest with the cotmtry In times of great need for cars and equipment, such which it is our duty to deal. Every ·pounu of freight and every · as the hai'Yest season or the cotton season, if their needs are passenger that is carried by railway is necessarily foi·ced to con not supplied by the carriers will have no legal recourse against tribute a fare or charge to the transportation lines. Transpor tlie carriers for failure to supply equipment for the sufficient tation affe~ts every producer that sells his product, every In reason that the carriers may answer that they are· not re- borer that toils in fiel-d or factory, every consumer that purchases sponsible because their cars and equipment were directed to any article of commerce not produced in his own locality, every other points or sections by the Interstate Commerce Commis- farmer that brings forth from the bosom of nature, with the aid sion. On shipments of live stock or other perishable freight of sun and shower, the plant that feeds or clothes his :fellow serious consequences may be suffered by such practices. When man. The public pays the freight and foots tbe bills. The public cattle are moYed to points of shipment tlley should be trans- pays the wages of the railway employees; 1t pays for the equip ported speedily. Heretofore the carriers have been responsible ment and the cars; it pays for all of the material of ~teel and under their common-law liability, but responsibility may be stone and timbe~ in the tracks and roadbeds upon which the avoideu under the provision referred to. To obtain any -char- engines and· thundering trains speed from ocean to ocean; and acter of reuress the complainants must apply not to their State last, but not least, it pays the dividends upon the capital im·ested 1·ailway commission or to the courts but to the commission at in all the railway properties of the Union. Washington. One of the very serious complaints made during According to my own view, ~his bill doe· not accord auequate Federal control has been lodged against this \el'Y practice, protecti-on ~o the interests of the shipping public, and the term by which shippers have been forced to send their complaints to "s)lipplng public·~ embraces the whole people. Washington. The section presupposes wonderful "vision., In the brief time allotted to me. I have undertaken to auvei·t in 'the commission, if lt is to be imagined that it can look out to .some of lts features which particu:arly invite my disapproval: from its offic~s in Washington and ~urvey the needs of the There are those who hope to capitalize tlle public demand for various section..:; of the entire country and anticipate their wants the immediate c.eturn .to private managemet).t anu to thereby more accurately than the traffic officials of the individual lines secur~ the ena<;tment of legislation which would be consiuered who make an intensive study of their own sections and their im~ossible in calmer mo~ents. l\~any Members have e~ress~d seasonal needs for cars, or than the State railway commissions their disapproval of many features of the bill but have indicat~d 'of the several States. their intention to support it as the best that can be secured. Section 415 enacts into law the holUing in what is known as As for me, ~Y r~ason and my judgment co~pel me to register "The Shreveport case." This 'clause pretends to recognize the my v?te agamst .1t. Rather than embrace t.J;tts measure I should State commissions 'by uirecting the Interstate Commerce Coin- sa~ction the retur~ of the ro~ds by .the Pre tdent ~nder the laws mission when examinin"' the relation between intrastate rates IeXIstent at the time of their takmg and now m force. The .and interstate rates to give notice to the State authorities and C~mmercc ~~mission has ~e power 'anu will ue ready to re by . autllmizing the Federal commission to "confer" with the ce1ve the peti~ons o~ the carriers an~l grant adequate rat~s and State commissions. These provisions, however. in nowise .limit proper ~emed1es.. Congress wll_l ~onstder and enact an_? fair ~n.d the authority of the Federal commission, conferred elsewhere in needful_ le~lslatwn that conditions may then reqmre. 'IbiS tlle b111, to o.verrlde and destroy the powers of the State ~ommis- measure will place upon the farmers: th~ buslnPss men, the s~ip Rions, but on the other hand emphasize such power in the follow- pers, a~d the consuming pub~lc obllgatwns and burdens whtch ing quoted langua"e· in the hght of the facts are neither warranted now nor ·will they b • be justified by time and experience. If this bill is enacted in its The commission shall have authority, after full hearing, to· make present form, the ·exacti'ons which ·t imposes upon the publi'c, such findings and or(]ers as may in its judgment tend to remove any 1 undue advantage, · preference, or prejudice as between persons or when thoroughly understood, will arouse a storm of righteous localities in State and interstate or foreign commerce, respectively, ox· protest." Let us return the roads, but let us not in doing 0 place any ttndue · burden upon interstate or foreign commerce, which is upon the people undue and tlnfaii' burdens, ,vhi'ch, once ·m· po ed, hereby forbiclden and declared to be unlawful, and such findings ox· 1 orders shall be observed while in effect by the carriers parties to such will be difficult to remove. No, gentlemen, I do not approve t11e proceeding affeded thereby, the law of nny State or the decision or bill, and, not approving. I can not without disagreement with my crder of any State authori!Y to the contrary notwithstanding. convictions give it my support. · · It will be noted that the clause just cited empowers tlle com- Mi·. DUNBAR.' Mr. Chairman, I ri"e in opposition to the mission to pass upon questions arising in " State and interstate amendment for the purpose of addressing some questions to and foreign commerce" and ends with the ominous and funereal the -chairman of the committee. Under section ~07 the word words " the law of any State or the decision or order of any u ' carrier" is applied to such railroads as may receive from the State authority to tlle contrru·y notwithstanding." If other para- Government a certain guaranty, but on line 13 there is an ex graphs of the bill have~ anywise failed to pronounce the doom ception made as to interurban electric rail"ny . Why was of State railway commjssions, the language quoted effectively this exception made? and completely accomplishes that purpose. :\lr. ESCII. This exception was made because t.lle same ex- The measure now before the House concenters practically all ception was made In the Federal-control net and in this specific power and control over rates, routing, equipment, pooling, con- language. We had to do it. solidation, and the multifarious affall·s connected with railway Mr. DUNBAR. Electric interurban railroaus uoing an inter traffic o.ver every railway line in the United States in the hands state business are not under the control of State institutions. of the Interstate Commerce Commission, whether the road be They are under conti·ol partly of the Interstate Commerce one wholly ,,;.thin a State or an interstate road, whether .it be Commission. · ' · incorporated under State or Federal law. The evils of central- Mr. ESCH. If tlley llo an interstate uusinc s {hey nrc unuer izing in the Federal authority the powers of government at·the the commission. expense of the States should be apparent to all. The further the . .1\Ir. DUNBAR. The Interstate Commerce Commi siou has agencies of government are removed from the people the less decided it has authority to grant, upon application of the responsive to the popular will those agencies become. . As the electric· railway doing interstate business, an increa e in rates. uepartments of government. become more distant .from tlle That is, they grant them authority to put into effect increased people it becomes more difficult for the people, and in this in- rates, but tlle Interstate Commerce Commission has al o ·de sta.uce for the shippers, to secure access to and a bearing , cided that it has no authority, no jurisrtiction, to compel that before the Government functionaries for the purpose of redress . same electric railway company. to furnish adequate· passenger or. petition for the rectification of abuses. To confer limitlPSs · ·accommodations for its patrons. Under tWs . bill where . will anthori ty upon a bureau or commission not directly responsible ' these passengers· get protection? - ·l9lf). eONGRESSI- Mr. ESCH. .In a ubi ·equent J)rovision we have taken care 1\fr. S...~ER. But it did succeed in rai ing rates nlmoot of that. instantly on -express-? 1\lr. DUNB:\R. I· that :un.der-see:tion 402? . Mr. ESGH. Yes. . . Mr. ESOH. .i 1think possibly ·tbat is -the -number. We haYe -The CHAIRMAN. The question is on tlle amendment offered given the commis ·i-on Yery lnrge powei:s in regard to -ordering ·by-the gentleman ·from Wisconsin. comman caTriers subject to .the .act -to supply themselves with 'The-question was-taken, and:the..amend:ment was agreed to. sufficient ·and safe equipment. Under that J)rovision -o!. law I 1\Ir. ·SE.ARS. Mr. Chairman, :I nave nn amendment to offer. think that emergency which the -gentleman -refers to could be The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the amendment. met. The Clerk .read as ·1o1Iows : _ 1\l.r. DUNB"'Ut. Then the j)lace for- me to take that up would .Amendment offered by Mr. S£ARs: Page 13, lirie 2:>, strike out the be lllldm· 'the amenili:nent to ·the -commerce a.ct? figures "1.917" and insert "191G.•• -. l\lr. 'ESCII. Yes; under -title 4. 1\lr. SE..WS. Mr. Chairman, when Congre ·s was. considering i\1-r. DUNB...'\.R. I thank the gentleman. tuldn.g o-vex the ra.i.JJ:oads I opposed ;the te t period ; that is, -the l\lr. ESCH. Mr. 'Chairman, on page 13, line 21, after the years 1915, .1916, -and 1917. 1 .am not cli.ticizing my -colleagues word ·" charges" ·I move to amend l:1y changi.ng the · ' against the Federal-control act for that very reason, but having Mr. .CALDWELL. How much, then? ·adopted that te t periot.l and made it ·a part of the law, I am Mr. PARKER. According to the figures of the Secretary of willing to abide by· it, and therefore this bill provides for the the Trea~ury, it cost the Government for 18 months ·approxi sa me test period. . · · . mately $600,000,000. That was operating deficit, and you fin · Mr. JONES of Texas. This would not change the contract, figure that for six months and get a fairly decent average. inasmuch as the test period applies to tlie six month.s subse- . :i\{r. CALDWELL. Provided all the· roads were to be con ·id . quel')t to Feder.al control. The test period in the other law ered ; but some of the roads are making ID(,mey, and good money, covered the return the railroads would have during the opera under the joint operation by the Government. Have you made tion · under Federal control. Now, this provides a new test any calculation at all to . how approximately what it would period governing the six months subsequent to Federal controL cost us here? Now, it 'may or may not be made the same as the· other-- ~Ir. ESCH. As to the making of money, I will state to the :Mr. DENISON. I will say to the gentleman that this does gentleman that there were only eight .roads in 1918 that earned not really alter· the contract, but we are by thiS law simply more than the standard return, and tho. e roaus, I think, '"er ext_ending the guaranty that was provided for under the almost wholly in the South and ha\e earned more than tho Federal-control act for an additional period of six months. amount of standard return by only about $12 000,000. Now, all of the accounting and bookkeeping and everything The CHA.IHMAN. The time of the gentleman from New York else bas been based by the administration upon the basis of [Mr. CALDWELL] has ex-pired. The que. tion i on the amend those three years, and it would be an extremely difficult matter ment of the gentleman from Florida. to readjust all those things by selecting another test period. ·· Mr. JOHNSON of 'Vashington. May we ha\e the amenument · Mr. JONES of Texa~. I appreciate the fact. I thought the again reported? gentleman was taking the position that another Member seemed The amendment wru again ·reported . .to take in asking a question, that we would be inconsistent in 'I'he CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will reat.l the language as i t inaking a test period. It may be impractical, but it would not' would read if amende year of great business. Some member ef-- the ceinmittee could· ter of eqUipment and upkeep of the properties necessarily in probably furnish exact information. . . . volved· in the .. transportation business must, be taken into ac Mr. SEARS. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman ·yield? - count.· In order tliat capitri.I may be induced to seek -invest Mr. JONES of Texas. Yes. - · ments in transportation enterprises it must find in the value Mr. SEARS. If my colleague went from llere to Texas,' so of the properties ·security for the investments and also satis- far as the passenger traffic was concerned, he ·would know . f~ctory returns in dividends. ~e e necessary charges must that there was more traYel during those years than for se\ be fairly and equitably measured :ind distributed in the ·wise eral years before. - and proper ·solution Of all of . these questions. · The total cost The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Texas has of such ser.vice must be paid by the public in t_he rates, fares, expired. The question is on agreeing to the amendment offered and charges necessa-ry· to establish, maintain, and perpetunte by the gentleman from Florida. · : the transportation business ' of the country. The question was taken, and the amendment was rejected.1 In former years we have heard much about watered stocks. Mr. ANDREWS .of Nebraska. Mr. · Chairman, · I offer ~ an · This bill proposes a stock and bond section in the Interstate amendment. . . Commerce Commission which will guard against such Yice. The CHAIRMA.J.~. The gentleman from Nebraska offers an in the future. All of ·the old arbitrary, .unjust, and inequitable a.mendment, which the Clerk will report. levies of freight and passenger rates should be wiped. out. The The Clerk read as follows : Interstate Commerce Comiilission should be clothed with au Amendment offered by Mr. ANDREWS of Nebraska.: Page 14, line 3, thority to pr~vent any one community from sharing in discrimi after the word " than," strike out all wox:ds d-own to the word " If," in natory rates to· the injury of other communities. Discrimjna line 5, and insert the following: "6 per cent net." . · tions of that character "should disappear at once and forever Mr. A.r-.TJ)REWS of Nebraska. Mr. Chairman, the President from the transportation business of the country. bas notified us officially that-he \vill return the railroads to In order to secure business stability duri_ng this period of re theii· owners by the 1st of next January. This notification has construction, this bill provides for the continuance of a guaranty been repeated and emphasized sev~ral times by the director for the period of six months from January 1 to June 30, inclusi\e general, Mr. Hines. Hence it is necessary that appropriate 1920. This provision is made because that length of time \vill b~ legislation should be enacted in advance -of that date to meet required for the Interstate Commerce Commission to determine . the exigencies that will arise at that thne. the rates tliat ought to be established to meet the actual running Of course, we uriderstand that the Federal control act ap expenses of the roads on this ne\v basis. In addition to t.hi ~ proved March 21, 1918, confers upon the President the discre extension of the guaranty, the bill provides for a revolving funtl tionary authority to take such action at such time as ·he may of $250,000,000, out of which loans may be made to the roads choose. In view of his decision in this matter there is no that need financial assistance in rehabilitating .themselves for opportunity left fol' the consideration of any other course of the future. Thus the roads will have the aid of the Government procedure. . Thus the questions of Government ownership and for a period of six months within which these complicated ques operation of the railroads,- the continuance of the roads ac.: tions can be worked out to a satisfactoi.·y conclusion without the cording to . the McAdoo plan .for a period of two or five years 'disturbance of wages of employees and adequate financial re or for a period of 21 months after the proclamation of peace t.-urns of the roads to meet the financial demands that will be sh_all have been issued, are entirely removed. In view· of such made upon them for good ·service to the public. It is.. earnestly Executive action, it is useless to consume time now even in the hoped that the expectations of the authors of this bill will be consideration of. the bill to perpetuate the McAdoo plan for fully reali~ed in these particulars. · • - an additional period of five years. In addition to this, the Mi·. Chairman, the provisions of ·the gtl.at;anty slioulcl be testimony shows that fully 85 per cent of the people ·of the changed in at least one important particular, ·and I submit the United States are opposed to the McAdoo plan and earnestly following amendment. · · '· · - · desire its abandonment as speedily as possible by returning The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman. from Nebraska offer·· an the roads to their owners. amendment, which the Clerk will report. . Tiie l;lill now b~fpre us prescribes conditions for -the opera The Clerk read as follows : tion of the roads after their return on the 1st of next January Amendment olfered by Mr. ANDREWS of Nebraska : Page 14, lin ·~ ::; , to their owners by Executive order. In this connection we after the period insert : should emphasize the fact to the people of the country that the "Provided, That such guaranteed income shall in no case · excce-t.l G legislation under. which the President assumed charge of the per cent of the actual outstanding capital stock of the carrier." roads nearly two years ago does not in any particular convey Mr. AND:R~\VS- of Nebraska. Mr. Chair.man and gentleiuen, ownersll.iP or title or any portiqn of the railroad properties to please note tbe prOVisiOn in the amendment_:_H 6 per Cent net." the Government. The ownership was left in the possession This would avoid any interference with the payment of the . of those who held the properties on and prior to the 28th of general expenses of the ·roads and leave the return of a net December, 1917. _ Du:ri-!lg this period. of Government operation profit of 6 per cent. under private ownership we have advanced from our National I quote now some figures from a tabulatLon. furnished by the Treasury $1,250,000,000, nearly one-half of which will be a Statistical Bureau of the Intel!state Commerce Commi Mr. ANDREWS- of· ·Nebraska. ·The gentlemaQ: a&ke .8462' CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-IIOUSE. . NOVEl\IBER 13,. Mr. BLACK. I rise to-speak at this time, Mr. Chairman, just Mr. BLACK. SiX pe.r cent. to say this in reference to the criticism which has been expressed Mr. ANDREWS of Nebraska. I saw a table which showed that the Government has paid a larger amount than was justified 162; 5, per cent was pa sed, and then G, and then 7, aml they ·as compen ation to the railroads under the war control act.. . were voted down. ' Let us see about that. Ten years ago the amount that the Mr. BLACK. I do not think it will average 6 per cent, but railroads earned, including the dividends to stockholders and I think I should modify the answer that I fiTst gave the: g~n fpayments made to their. sec11I'it:y holders, was, in round figures, tleman. In a \ery· few cases I believe it has exceeded 6 per , $760,000,000: That was 10 years ago. Since that time there has cent, but the average dividend is much les , considerably Ies , been an additional investment made in railroads and terminal than 6 per cent. 1facilities of at least $4,000,000,000. r think that that will be Upon the question as to the fairness and reasonableness· of !admitted by anyone who has studied the statistics on the subject. the standard return whiCh the Government has paid the rail· 1Tlius we have in the 10·year period an increase of only the roads, 1i presume that :r.!l.'. William G. McA.doo' would be about difference between $760,000,000 and something over $900,000,000 as· unbiased a witness as could be called. Mr. McAdoo stated annual rentnl or standard return which the Government has before the Senate Committee on. Interstate and FoL>eign Com· paid to th,e railroads during. the period of Federal control. This m.erce in 1918 on this point as- follows : difl'erence represents all the increase in their earnings, or about I anr partieuliU'ly convinctld that it Is fair and reasonable in view $150,000,000, notwithstanding tllnt there has been an increase of ot the optional chn.racte~ ot the possession und control. Moreovel\ a t ,.. 000 000 000 · th · it 1 ...... tm t just basis promptly provided und accepted will aid the Gove.rnmt>nt a b ou $':i:, • .,. m err cap a LOVes en ~ inc::tlculably in carrymg on successfully the stupendous financial nn· Now, ns to the criticism of the gentleman from Illinois [l\fr. dertakings essential and, in fact, vital to the success of the war. MADDEN] t•espec.ting .. the. amount of the increased eost o:f operat, That, in general.. iS" the. prineiple which I havo felt. shOuld animate us in ina raill'-On.ds, 1 am• as- far from being an advocate of Govern- dealing_ with this ncy v1t..'t-l problem. . I do not attempt to state the ~ figure.s with a:ecnracy, although I could do so by referrin.g to memo- ment ownership as any man in this House, but we ought to be ra.nda, · but I may say that in a genern.r way the net Income of the fair to the Railroad Admin1stra.tion in considel'ing the fncts railroads, the character of net income we are dealing with here, was 'th th ~o-t Wb t th fa ? Th 1"'...... ,.," something. like a b1lllon and thirty-five million dollars in the fiscal year connect- e-d wr e opeuu."on. a nre e cts.. e lli_ MADDEN. 1\fr-. Chairman,, I mo:ve. to amend by striking ; ment, it is faiF to· suppose that when the- roads are turn~d back out o:ll after the· word' ·~guaranty,-,' on page ~7,. in lin-e 11,; down · to- their owners' and they are managed as a business proposition to- the en-dl of tile page. tha:t this $6{)(},.000,000 lo s will fade- away, and under p-resent 'Fhe CHAIRl\ilN. The g.-entleman from Eiinois. offers an · rates and p.resent wages the railroads wil}! not only earn what is am :ndment, which the Cle1·k will report. equivarent tg the standa.nl return but they wtn not be compelled The Clerk read: a follows: · to ask fOJ7 higher rates, and an invitation such as this biU car.. :Page 17, Line 11. a:fter the: word .. "'naranty," strike out. th~ Femainde:r · ries to· ask for higher rates the very momen-t they take posses.. of the: parag:raph. . sion is an injustiee to the American peg.ple· which: 1 do nat p.r lish railroau cretlit. But in doing so we could not, of course, Mr. l\10?\TDELL. Not neces arily -because the guaranty, in neglect the intere ts of- the Government. ·we tried by the pro- my opinion, is more in the nature of an insurance. The roads vision of the bill to protect the Treasury as .far as· po sible. will start under private control under conditions that are far l\11'. MONDELL. I move to strike out the last word. from satisfactory: The guaranty will steady the operation, will · l\Ir. Chairman, I rise to support the amendment· of the gen- improve and strengthen the credit of the roads, will give them tleman from Illinois [Mr. 1\IADDEN]. I expect to support the confidence, and will afford them a. better opportunity than they tommittee in the main in their position on this bill . . That is otherwise would ha-re to get on their feet. But let us not pub my duty, and in this case my inclination. .I shall try. to resolve lish the suggestion that we expect the people to pay a larger every doubt I have in regard to the provisions of the bill in sum than they have been paying; that we do not expect the favor of the view of the committee. But we have reached a carriers will be able to improve conditions or to bring about provi ion in the bill that I think of tremendous importance, economy or to operate the roads in a more satisfactory way than a. provision relative to which I hope the committee may modify the Government has done. . its -view after further consideration. We are proposing to return l\Ir. Al~DREWS of Nebraska. Will the gentleman yield? the railroads of the cotmtry to their owners-to their manage- Mr. MONDELL. I yield. ment and control. ·We would not be justified in doing that in the Mr. ANDREWS of Nebraska. Does not the gentleman from manner proposed if we did not anticipate better, more efficient, Wyoming believe that this guaranty will aid materially in carry and more conomical management under such control and man- ing further the subject of reasonable wages for employee of agement than under. public control, management, and operation. the roads? If the owners of the roads can not operate them more economi- Mr. MONDELL. It will strengthen an . 1919. 8465 :M'r. l\IONDELI1. 1\lr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield? Mr. BRIGGS. Mr. Chairman, I think the argument brought 1\fr. DEW ALT. Certainly. out over- this amendment proposed by the gentleman from Illi 1\Ir. MONDELL. Doe not the committee anticipate that, nois [Mr. MADDEN} emphasizes not only- tile· danger of that por with. the provision of the guaranty in the hill, practk-ally all tion of the section to which the amendment is addressed and of the roads will apply for the guaranty 1 · wWch is sought to be stricken out, but also presents the danger 1\Ir. DEWALT. No, sir. We anticipate just · the- contrary. to the people of this country of" adopting any part of this For instance, the Northern Pacific would earn very much more whole section. than the maranty of the test period, anc1 it does ~arn very mucb The anxiety among the people of America to-day to have the more. railroads restored to pr-ivate ownership is to be relieved of the Mr. 1\IONDELL. Will the gentleman permit another ques- great losses entailed and experienced in the operation of those tion? roads by the Government. It is because the people of this Mr. DEWALT. Yes. country are tired of Government operation and Government 1\Ir. MONDELL. If there were only one or two railr _ads here ownership, or what has been equivalent ta 1t by the- control of and there-- the railroads by the Government during th~ war period, und 1\!r. DWW ALT. There were eight different road ~ , as I un yet this provision of the bill not only does not relieve the people derstand, wbicb earned more than the- standard return. of any of those burdens, but it seeks to impose upon the people Mr. MONDELL. Would the gentleman· have the Interstate for six months longer burdens which even the committee can Commerce Commission rai e the rates of those roads above the not estimate, but which, perhaps, from . the amount of the average le\"el of others under like conditions. in order to meet standard return of $900,000,000 a year, and the 43 per cent the situation of those roads? And if so, how about the rule of of that for the first six months, would leave the people to pay uniformity? under this guaranty ut least u quarter of a billion dollars. Mr. DEWALT. All of those roads have been operating under Now, why is this provision put in here, requiring the rail Federal control under the standard return. Now, it is farcical roads to come forward in 60 days with applications for increases to say that any road that earns more than the guaranty pro of rates, or otherwise to be denied the provisioDs of the vided in this bill would apply for the guaranty, because it guaranty? would not be in accordance with good business methods to do The committee feel that that proposition is a b"tghly danger so. They would be losing money by it. Therefore it resolves itself ous one, that it will destroy initiative, efficiency, and ineentive ngain into what I have tried to say, namely, that the roads on the part of the roads- under private operation to do their ~ that do apply for the guaranty are those roads that do not earn to reduce expenses and give the people the best service at the 1lll amount equivalent to what would be afforded by the guar lm\·est cost. That is the only reason wby 1t is put in there, as uncy. The committee did not want these roads that did not the chairman, I think, announced in his remarks in general earn the amount to " lie uown on the job," as the saying is. debate. I want to say that I am not only in favor fJf striking In otlier words, if they are not compelled to file this applica it out, but of striking out the- whole section, just us we struck out tion for a raise of rates, they go on for six months and they section 205 and substituted the Denison amendment. I say get their guaranty. There is no doubt about that. But if they that this whole section is unwi e, and it fastens upon the people, walt until the last minute of the expiration of the guaranty not any relief from Government operation, not any relief from period, then possibly they are going to file their rates, nnd the burden and expense attendant upon it,. but it shackles the possibly not~ and the accumulation of the- business before the p.ub.lie for six months longer, and ought not to be· allowed to Interstate Commerce Commission will be monumental and remain in- this bill. Every safeguat'd is given the railroads to they will never get through with it" during the period of six get means to continue their operation. The p~t rates in months. effect are allowed to. continue. Even under the. Denison amend 1\Ir. BARKLEY and 1\lr. 1\IONDELL rose. ment they are allowed a most liberal time to pay a large share The CHAIRMAN. Does the gentleman yield. and to whom? of their indebtedness, approximately $250,000.~ wbich they 1\Ir. DEWALT. I will yield to my colleague from Kentucky owe the Government, and whieh is permitted tu run ov-er a firnt - period of 10 years. Mr. BARKLEY. Would that be an incentive to the road Another provision of this bill, seetlon 208,. provides for an filing its schedule in the last minute making app11eation to the appropriation of $250,000,000 to be used as. loans to the Interstate Commerce Commission not to suspend the rate for rallroads during the next two years. to tide them over the six months but to put it into effect Immediately? difficulties that they will experience in financing their operations Mr. DEWALT. Yes. Now I yield to the gentleman ftom during the transition period, and I say that is: sufficent to enable Wyoming. the railroads to opernte, nod is as mueb as they ean fairly expect Mr. 1\IONDELL. If it is· the gentleuian's theory that only from this Congress or from the people of the United States. here and there an incon equential- road shall make thi& appli The CHAIRMA.r~. The time on this amendment has expired. cation for the guaranty, why place in this bill a provision to .Mr. JEFFERIS. Mr. Chairman, I move to--strike-out the last take care of a tritling and unimportant situation here and there two words. It seems t<> me that the amendm-ent offered by the 'throughout the country? gentleman from Illinois is one of wblcb we should take careful 1\fr. DE'VALT. I d9 not think it is trifling, nor do I think consideration at this time. I believe that the people of the that there are but few roads that will avaU themselves of this United States are interested in railroad ~:ates:, because they provision. I think there are a number of them. necessarily affect all questions c<>ncerning the blgh cost of living. Mr. MONDELL. That is what I understood the gentleman Everything tllat people eat, wear, or use in any way bas to to say. some extent t<> pay the railroad rates. In other words, this is Mr. DEWALT. I think there were only 18 roads in this to furnish the funds. Now, if Congress guarantees to these rail· country that earned more than the standard return. roads the amount of money contained in this blll or suggested 1\lr. ESCH. Eight. by the gentleman from Nebraska. it seems to me that we have Mr. MONDELL. l\Ir. Chairman, will the gentleman yield gone to the extent that we should go in strengthening them for again? carrying on their operations. If under private management ran Mr. DEWALT. Yes. roads can not be conducted and freight rates lowerat, then Mr. 1\.IONDELL. Is it not altogether probable that all except there is no argument for returning these roads to pr-ivate those 18 will apply for the guaranty? ownership, and the people might as well know lt. U, on the The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Pennsyl o-ther band, the private owners can operate these roads so as vania has expired. to lower the freight rates of this country. tbe~ should be given· - 1\fr. DEWALT. May I be permitted, Mr~ Chairman,. one that opportunity, and now is the time to do it. To say here moment more to answer a question? that for 60 days they shall have a rigb:t to tlle tllese applications The CHAIRMAN~ The gentleman from Pennsylvania asks is, it seems to me, a vaili thing. Wbat can- they possibly know. unanimous consent to proceed for one minute- more. Is there in 60 days? It is only n surmise· that is to. t>e put up to the -Dbjection? Interstate Commerce Commission. There cmi be nothing defi· There was no objection. nite about it, arid consequently, as stated by the gentleman Mr. DEWAL'X. If they do, then there is all the greater neces from Wyoming, it seems to me that all railroads, looking into sity that the burden and the obligation be placed upon them to the fUture and thinking of drought and pesttlence and every· make this application for rates. so that they do not .. lie down thing of. that kind, \vill believe that the safe thing to do is to on the job," and the Interstate Commerce Commission can make application fo·r increased rates, and then make some 'investigate and fi..~ the 1•ates. kind of a showing before the Interstate- Commerce Commis Mr. BRIGGS rose. sion, possibly not supported by facts wbieb will be home out by The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will reeogniz:e tbe gentleman the future, and thus get an increase o~ rates. If the railroads from Texas. should happen ·to foll~ that policy, tbe- result W!Hild be that 1.' 8466 CONGRESSIONAL . RECORD-HOUSE. NOVEniBER 13, the whole people of this country will have bro11ght to their this House. There is no reason, personal or political, why I attention the convincing fact that private management can not should favor such a subsidy. equal, let alone excel, the management of Government owner~ But.here is the situation, and we might as well confront it ship. So it seems to me that no direction should be given in the like intelligent men. When the raili·oads are turned back to law itself holding out to the railroads an invitation within 00 the owners, the difference between the income and outgo \vill days to make this application for an increase, thus unsettling be very much larger than what it was when the Government the business conditions of this country; because an application took over the roads. Whether that has been brought about by by all of the railroads for increased freight I'ates during the the Government control or not, it has certainly been brought next 60 or 90 days would in my opinion be a blow at the recon about during Go-vernment control. If the Interstate Commerce struction of business in this country. So why invite it? Why Commission were equipped on the first day after the roads ask them to do it, and ask them to present only the facts that were turned back to readjust the scale of rates sufficient to have become available to them within 60 days? It seems to me meet expenses, there would be no reason for the guaranty. that the amendment offered by the gentleman from illinois That is why we have pronded for a guaranty-because the should be adopted. commission testified before us, and various State commissions 1\Ir. CONNALLY. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike bt.nwntlJs, if· it can not wait for six months until the regular to make their expenses as low as possible and t11eir income as time of payment, it may apply for an advance payment, but high as possible, and at tlie same tinie they can :file their sched IJefore the Interstate Commerce Commission can make that ad ule for an increase of rates; if sucli'increase of rates is neces Yance payment it must first pass on the question as to whether sary._, _ thete .. hould be an increase of rates. It seems to me that it They can make t}feir sho~ing just t~e same as they would would be a mistake to strike out that requirement. . make it if the guaranty were furnished them. It seems to me 1\-lr. CALDWELL. :Mr. Chairman,· I move to strike out the that a railway should be required to make a showing at least last fi \"'e words. . . b_efore any money is furnished it. I for one am not in favor of . 1\Ir. ESCH. Mr. Cllairinan, I ask unanimous consent_that aJ_l adopting the ·policy of appropriating money simply to stabilize debate upon this section and aU amendments thereto close in 10 any industry, as has been expressed by some one who preceded minute . me. This section of the bill not only provides a guaranty, but The CHAlRl\lAN. 1.'be gentleman from . Wisconsin .asks also -almost orders all the railway companies to ask for an unanimous consent that all debate upon this section and amend increase in rates. It provides that they must file an application ment · thereto close in lO minutes. Is there objection? for an increase in rates before they can get the guaranty. It There was no objection. is almost like authorizing a conspiracy to raid the TreasuiJ. Mr. CALDWELL. Mr. Chairman, I -read in a newspaper the Where does the public come in on such a proposition? other drry that a certain person named Hays, who occupies t!le There is another thing I would like to call to the attention of Im.~ition · of. cl:lairman _of the.- Republican national comrilittee, the committee. It has been argued here that some of these had made · a statement in which he said that the Rep_ublican r~ads will not need the guaranty provision and, therefore, will Parfy intended in_the railroad bill to take care of the interests not apply for it. Others will need it and apply for it. The of. the railroads, and, of course, .this railroad bill does- . big railways of this country have a method, when they want '"Mr. ffiCKEY. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the gentleman_pro to use it, of diverting traffic. The roads that are able to make ceed in order. ~eir income and more will have the traffic diverted over their : The CHAIRMAi~. The gentleman from Indiana makes_tlle branches., and_ they can make a lot of money, while .the other point of order that the gentleman from New York must proceed _ I'oads will not need to scramble for traffic, for they will simply in order. . . say they are going to get their money in the form of a guaranty r. DALDWELL. Oh; well; I would be surprised if the Re anyway. Thus the great roads can have certain branch roads puiJlicans do not want to know what Mr. Hays says. This is a sit supinely by and do nothing during the six months guaranty pro -forma amendment, an:d . I will proceed in order. Tliere ·is period, while the great roads, with traffic diverted their way, some effort here, according to the debate on that side of the grow prosperous and keep the surplus. House, to take care of the employees of the ·railroads, but I have While we are returning the roads to the owners I am not not heard anybody point out anywhere in ·any manner how this in favor_of neglecting the public interest. We owe some duty bill takes care of the public. Whether or not it is taking care to the Treasury of the United States and to the public wllich of the public is fully demonstrated by that great barometer· pays the bills_. which the RepuQ!j.cans haV"e for the past generation pointed to Mr. SAUNDEE.S of Yirginia. ':vm the t)'entleman from Texas every time they wanted to . know what the . country thinks of yield? legislation-the stock market. 'Ve notice a break in the New Mr. JONES of Te.x:a ·. I wiU yield. York Stock Exchange only yesterday of 68 points on some in Mr. SAUND~RS of Virginia. If we strike out the part of dustrial stocks, showing that the people of this country realize tlte section proposed to be stricken out by the Madden amend that this bill does not take care of the interests of the people, ment, will it not really be in the interest of the railroads? of the producers, of the manufacturer, 'and this section of the Mr. JONES of Texas. I am inclined to think so. Therefore bill ought to be stricken out. we should adopt the Sims antendment, which· strikes out the · 1\fr. GREEl'.'E ·or Vermont. How long is it since the Demo entire section. I will call the attention of the gentleman to cratic Party turned to Wall Sh·eet stock quotations to test pub- the amendment offered by the gentleman from Tennessee to Jic sentiment? [Laughter.] - strike' out the entire section. That is the amendment to which 1\lr. CALDWELL: Oh,' it is always nice to look at the stand I am speaking. I do not care particula!.lY what is done with ard et up by your opponent when you get ready to ask the the amendment of the gentleman from Illinois, but I rather question whether or not your opponent is really sincere and think that if the section were going to be ·left in it would be honest in his declaration·. well to defeat the :Madden amendment. That, however, is an l\Ir. GREENE-of Vermont. Not having had an answer, Ire amendment of relatively uniniportant consideration. I want peat the question. How long since the Democratic Party turned to remove all question by eliminating the entire paragraph. In to the Wall -Street-stock quotations·as a test of real public sen~ other words, I do not believe we should guarantee the railroads timent and opinion? a net income after the Government releases them and they are Mr. CALDWELL. The gentleman knows that I have not returned to the private owners. . said that the Democratic Party looks to that. My remark was The CHAIRMAN. 'l;'he time of the gentleman has expired; that the "Republican Party had always pointed to it. all time has expired: _ Mr. BLANTON. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that we eschew Mr. BYRNES of South Carolina. - Mr. Chairman, I desire to politics and get back to the bill. offer an amendment. 1\Ir. JONES of Texas. · Mr. Chairman, the discussion here re The CHAIRMAN. There is an amendment now pending, minds me ·of the story of a lawyer whose services were sought and the gentleman's amendment can be offered afte~: this amend for the purpose of institutin~ suit. He told his client that he ment is disposed of. would take the. case on a contingent basis. The client asked Mr. BYRNES of South . Carolina. Then I withuraw it for · him what that meant. The lawyer replied, " If i lose the case the present. l get nothing, and if I win you get nothing." The CHAIRMAl~. The question is on the amendment of the I think that is the situation of the public in so far as this gentleman from Illinois to r.:trike out certain language. particular section of the bill is concerned. It is claimed by the - The question was taken, and the Phairman announced that the committee that the "reason it wants to require the road which ayes seemed to haYe it. _ desires the guaranty to file a schedule of rates is to keep it On a divicsion (demanded by l\lr. EscH) ,tllere were-ayes 38, from "laying clown" on the Government. I submit that if you noes 90. are going to furnish every railroad a ·guaranty,- you will make So the amendment wa · rejected. it. to the intere~t .of all who accept that guaranty-if their argu Mr. BYRNES of South Carolina. l\lr. Chairman, I offer an ment is legitimate-to "lay do"\.vn" on the Government, and at amendment. _ · the same' time file their _a{>plicatio_D: for an increase in rates. The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the amendment. Then, regardless of whether any effort is made to earn any The Clerk read as follows: thing, but, on the contrary, by making the opposite showing, Amendment by Jtfr. BYR~ES of South Carolina: Page 16, line 10, they can get their guaranty and at the same time get their .in strike out the words " certified to the Secretary of the Treasury '.' and crease of rate·. A subsequent section of the bill provides. the inSert in lien thereof " submitted to the Secretary of the TreasUry for method for taking care during this transition period of those transmission to Conf,'l'ess." - ' · roads that ·can not make. their way. This subsequent section Mr. BYRNES of South Carolina." _: Mr. Chairman, a parlia- / provides that the Government" Will make them loans if it is mentary inquiry. _ · ~~essary. in 9rder to qelp them over. that" trapsition period. . The CHAIR~iAN. The gentleman w1ll state it. By making a loan to the Yarious roads and makj.ng them operate - Mr. BYRNES- of South- Carolina. · Did I understand the on their own merits 'ivithunt a guaranty-or, in other words, Chair. to st_ate that time Iiad · been fixed an The CHAIRMAN. The time for uebate on the section and tat£- Oominerce Commission, and I am willing to stand by theil• all amendments thereto was closed by unanimous con ent. recoil11lW.mlation and certificate. Mr. BYRNES of Sontb Carolina. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanl· 1\Ir. ANDRE\VS of Nebraska. Is. an- appropriation carriell in mous consent that the time be extended three minutes in order .this bHl.. or provided for elsewbereF for tb:tt nmount? that I may explain this amendment, as I believe the chairman ~Ir. BAma.EY. The unexpended amounts- heretofore· appro may accept it if I can explain rt. priated by Congress fn connection with the- RuJlway Administra Tlle CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from South Carolina askS tion are continued in thrs bill. unanimous consent that notwithstanding the previuus order of Mr. ANDREWS of. Nebraska. The pre entation of this mat the committee the time may be extended three minutes in order ter ta the Secretary of the Treasury for the issuance of a war· that he may speak to his amendment. Is there objection? rant would have no force unless at that time there was a definite 1\lr. :BARKLEY. Mr. Chairman, reserving ther right to object, appropriation by Congress to pay that bill. it may be necessary to reply to the gentleman if he says any 1\Ir. BARKLEY. The gentleman is mistaken about that. thing during those three mlnutes- The CHAiruiAN. The time of the gentlmnan has expired. Mr. BYRNES of South Carolina. 1\lr. Chairman, I think the The question is on the amendment of the- gentleman from Soutli time hnd better be made six minutes. Cru·olina [Mr. BYRNEs]. Mr. BARh.'LEY. As the gentleman always yM something The question was talren, ancl the Olia11' announced that the worth bearing whenever be spPaks. noes seemed to have it. The CHAIRl\IAN. The O'entleman from South Cmrolina asks Mr. BYRl~ES of South Carolinn. Mr. Ohalrmnrr, I ask for a. that the time of six minutes may be allotted on his amendment, division. . and that he may have three minutes in which tn explain the The committee divided; and there were-ayes 56, noes 71. - amendment, notwitl1stanuing the previous order. Is there objeC' So the amendment was rejected. tlon? [After a pause.] The Chair hears none. Mr. ANDREWS of Nebraska. Mr. Chairman, I offer an Mr~ BYRI\TES of South Cru·olina. Mr. Chairman and gentle amendment. men of tlte committee~ under the bill as it now reads we give The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman fl'om Nebraska offer · an, the Inte~tate Commerc{" Commission the right to draw a sight amendment, which the Clerk wUl report~ draft on the Treasury for the amount that shall' be ascertained The Clerk read as follows : by them to be the compensation due. Under the amemlment I Amendment offered by Mr. ANDREws of Nebraska-: Page 14, line 5, l have offered ther amount of compensation due the· railroads would afte·r the period. insert : " Provided, Tbat sn~lt guaranteed tn~ome sh-all be E>stimated to- Congre: s, and. Congress would appropriate- the ln no case exeeed G per cent of the adual ontstanding capital stock of money, as it bas always done. I doubt seriou ly whether the the carrier." Coogress has tile right by such general language as is contained Mr. ESOH. ~Ir: Chairman, l make a po-1ntt of order on that... in this section to appropriate an unlimited and indefinite amount. The subject embodied in it has already been: acted on. \Ve have pa · .~ect a budget bill, by which you say you are going Mr. HARDY of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I w.ould like to be to make your revennes · accord with yom' appropriations. But heard on the- point of order. here you malce an indefinJte appropriation which no Oon1Q"ess can 1\fr. ESCH. All debate on the section has: been closed. ever ascertain. You will never know how much you have pai1l The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Wisconsin makes the , or will have to pay under it. Under the amendment I have point of order against the amendment on 1!he ground that· the 1 offered the estimate will come to Congres . It can not be argued same su bjPCt and provision has been voted on by the committee. '· that it will mean great delay. Your pensions are estimated. for 1\lr. ESCH. Yes~ by the PellSton Bureau. and·the appropriation is pas ed by Con Mr. HARDY of Texas. On that point I would like to, be heard. ~~·ess, just as every other apprQpriation should be passed by The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will hear the gentleman. Uongress. The language as It stands requires no estimate; sim 1\lr. HARDY of Texas. There was an amendment offered by ply on the certificatl' of the Interstate Commerce Commission the the gentleman from Nebraska which provided that the guaran· Sec1·etary of the Treasury pays it out, and the Congress will teed income slrould not exceed 6 per cent, but thttt came- with the never be able to a certain bow much is ta be paid. There is no motion to strike out a part of the pa1·agraph which provided that express appropriation of any amount, as is required by statute. the guaranteed income should be the sta:ndam lncome for the · . Mr. BARh..'"LEY. Mr. Chairman, this. amendment ought not to: six months. This amendment is an entirely different one. Tbe be adopted, in my opinion. In the first place, the amount these standard income might be mueh less than 6 per eent and it might roadR will be entitlE-d to wUJ be fixed. \Ve fixed It by tlris act be much more than 6 per cent. This ts a limitation put after that is1 the average amount during the corresponding six months the words in the paragraph down to- the rrertod. on line 5, and of the three years endi-ng June 30, 1917- o it is not a matter simply says that they may have tbe standard tneome for the six in the discrE:>tion of the Secretary of the Treasury or in the months provided it shall not exceed 6. per· cent. And it seems to Inter tate Commerce Commission to fix the amount. All the me it is a very different amendment. Interstate Commerce Commis~ion dues is to arrive at the amount The CHAIRMAl."l. The Chair has. examined the previous ''hich we say they should be entitled to and certify that to the amendment~ and it provides. to strike out certain language and ecretary uf the Treasury. · provides t11at the guaranty hould be 6 J}er eent O"f the capital Mr. BYRNES of South Carolina. 'Vill the gentleman yield? stock. The amendment offered is that the guaranty shall not Mr. BARKLEY. I would hardly be able to yield in three exceed 6 per cent, nnd the Chair overrules the point of order. minutes. The question is on the· amendment. · . · Mr. BYRNES of South Carolina. I did not use all of my The question was· taken, and the Chair announced that the time, and the gentleman can have half· a minute. Pensions, are noes seemed to have it. . fixed by law, but they are required to be estimated for to the ·Mr. DOWELL. A division, Mr. Chairman. Congress. The committee divided; and there were-ayes 42, noes 60. Mr. BARKLEY. I understand that; but we pass n pension So the Ulllendment was rejected. appropriation bill every year. Naw, beginning at the ·end of the The CHAIR IAN. The- question now re~urs on the motion ofi ix months' period that these railroads will be entitled to the the gentleman from Tennessee to strike- out the section. standard return, Congress may not be in se ion and may not The question was taken, and. the Chair announced that the meet until December, and there may be three or four months noes appeared to- ba ve it. when Congress is not in ses ion, and the roads would need the Mr. SIMS. Division, Mr~ Chairman. amount due, and they would have to wait until Congress is in The committee divided; a.nd there were-ayes· 69, noes 00. session- Mr. BEE. 1 ask fot· tellers, l\Ir. Chairmam Mr. ESCH. And even if Congress was in session there might Tellers- were ordered, and Mr. DENISON and1 Mr. Snrs took be delay. their places- as tellers. 1\lr. BARKIJEY. There might be delay, because it would The- cnmmlttee again divided ; and the1·e were-ayes 7~. noes have- to come in the fo1·m of a deficiency bill, or something of 114. that sort, and hence we fix here the amount they are entitled to SO' the amendment was rejected. ami only authorize the eomml sion to certify to the Seeretary The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk Will read. of the Treasury the amount that we say here they are entitled The Clerk read as follows: to, and without any delay-· - IJ'i.VEST1GAX10N Olll 'E.EDS OF W.iTER TnkNSPOR'B'lliON. Mr. BYRNES of South Carolina. Does not the gentleman SEc. 211. It sha:U De the duty of the Sem-e:tar11 ot War, throngb tho right- the Chlet of Engi-n1!E!rs. with the object of promoting., encouraging.. and know that Congres has the through Appropria-tions developing watel' transportation facilities in ('()DDe<'tfon With the com• Committee to examinC' to s e whether or not 1t is- correct a.nd·- meree· of the Unltf'd State , to investigate the approprlab> typl'S ~ Mr. BARKLEY. With an due respect, in reply I will say t boats suitable for dift'Prent classes of watPrways; to ln~stlgate the do not think Congre s or the gentleman's committee is- as well subject of water terminals, both for water trafilc a.u4 for tlu:ough traffte by water and ra.l:l~ lncludtng tht! necessary dockS", warehouses, apparatus, qualified to ascertain what thL spurs and switches connecting with such terminnls, with a view .to Mr. EDMONDS. Certainly. devising the types most appropriate for different locations, and for the more expeditious and economical transfer or interchange of passengers Mr. HARDY of Texas. I suggest that line 9 indicates that it or property between carriers by water and carri.ers oy. rail; to advise is in connectio.n '\\ith the commerce of the United States, foreign with communities, cities, and towns regarding the appropriate location and domestic. · of such termlnals; nnd to cooperate with them ' .in the preparation of plans· for suitable terminal facilities; to investigate the erlsting status Mr. EDl\IONDS. Yes; foreign and domestic both. of water transportation upon the different waterways of the country, 1\Ir. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time. with a view to determining whether such waterways are being utilized · l\Ir. BANKHEAD rose. to the extent of their capacity, and to what extent they. are meetlng the demands of traffic, and whether the water carriers utilizing such water The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will recognize the gentleman wars are interchangtng traffic with the railroads; and to investigate from Alabama. any other matter that may tend 'to promote and encourage wat.er trans J.Vlr. BA.!'•;'KHEAD. l\Ir. Chairman, I trust that the amend .portat!on. It shall·also ·be the province and dnty of the Chief of Engi neers, under the direction of the Secretary of War, to compile, publish, ment offered by the gentleman from Pennsylvania [l\Ir. ED· ftnd supply, from time to time, such, . useful statistics, data• . and infor MONDS] will have the Yery careful and thoughtful considera mation concerning transportation by water as may be of ·value to the tion of this committee. If you will observe the provisions of commercial interests of the country. section 211, you will see that it undertakes to confer upon the MESSAGE FROM THE SENA:rE. Secretary of War, through the Chief of Engineers, yery unusual The committee informally rose; and.l\lr. Tuso~ having taken and extraordinary powers to be carried out by that department the chair as Speaker pro tempore, a message from the Senate, of the Government. by Mr. Crockett, one of its clerks, announced that the Senate · As has been suggested by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, ball agreed to the conference report on the bill {S. 425) to the Committee on the 1\Ierchant Marine and Fisheries during establish the Zion National Park; in the State of Utah. the months that have intervened since the convening of this session of Congress have undertaken very exhaustive examina· THE RAILROAD BILL tions of this entire subject of our water transportation and our The committee resumed its session. ocean-borne commerce, especially in connection with our inlaml Mr. EDl\fO::t'.'"DS. Mr. Chairman, I move to sh·ike out the waterways and rivers, . and one of ·the main features of. that . section. . investigation, one of the main thoughts that the committee 1\fr. SEARS. 1\Ir. Chairman, i reserve a point of order on the has had in mind in connection with the activities and recom section. · mendations of the Shipping Board-which has the legitimate The CHAIRMAN. · The gentleman from Florida reserves a exercise of this jurisdiction in accordance with the purposes point of order on the section. The gentleman from Pennsyl for which it was created-one of the recommendations that \ania [l\1r. EDMONDS] is recognized. they have been insisting upon is the inve.stig.ation and report Mr. EDMONDS. Mr. Chairman) I can not see any use for upon these yery specific things that are here sought to the con this section. Here we are creating a new commission to make ferred upon the Secretary of War. a report on matters that belong to the waterways of the coun If you will refer, gentlemen of the committee, to the original ti·r. This should properly come under the Committee on the shipping act, the act of 1916, you will see that in sections 18 Merchant 1\Iarine and Fisheries-and be taken up by the Ship and 19 the Shipping Board, by that act creating them, were. l1ing Board or the Department of Commerce. We are asking clothed with the authority and the uuty of making recom here for the Secretary of War · to tell you something about mendations and investigations with reference to these water ships. I do not know what the Secretary of War .should know routes and of terminal facilities and arrangements as affected in regard to ships. And you are also asking him to tell you by water and inland transportation. something · about the utilization of harbors and ports. Now, And yet here by this section :ron are undertaking to strip our committee has gi\"en a very great deal of time. to in\"esti the Shipping Board of its legitimate authority, not only from gating port utilities, and it is our irrtention to bring about a the standpoint of the statute, but, gentlemen, also from the bill which will not only make reports but will use the reports standpoint of the real purposes of its creation and the activities that have been made in a proper manner. I do not think in which it has been engaged, and confer them upon the Secre this section belongs in this bill at all, and I think that if the tary of War, who already is overburdened with duties now con gentlemen will just look over the number of different .things ferred upon him by law and by statute. And, gentlemen, if that the engineers are to report upon, they will find that it you are really and truly interested in the development of the doe · not belong to the War Department or to the Corps .of En merchant marine of this country, as affected by the possibilities gineers. I trust the gentlemen will yote to eliminate .this sec afforded by cheap water transportation, through the shipment tion, and I expect that early in December the Committee on of our goods and produce through bills of lading from the point the 1\lerchant Marine and Fisheries will bring in a bill that will of origin to the seaboard and on to our foreign markets. you cover both the status of port utilities and the utilization of the ou~ht to fa\"or the amendment offered by the gentleman from information to the advantage of the merchant marine of the Pennsylvania [Mr. EnMoxns] and leave the exercise of this country. function where it legitimately belongs, to the Shipping Board, l\Ir. WHITE of Maine. Will the gentleman yield? which was created for the purpose and clothed with the power l\f.r. EDMONDS. Certainly. and authority of investigating these questions, as they have Mr. 'VHITE of Maine. Is it ·not true ·that the· Emergency been doing it, and building up -. to the highest maximum of Fleet Corporation has already been conducting exhaustive in usefulness the natural facilities which have been bestowed upon quiries into port facilities, terminals,· and docks, and all that the people of our country by virtue of water transportation as sort of thing, not only in this country but in Europe? it has been improved up to to-day. . lUr. EDMONDS. That is absolutely true. Why should the Secretary of War, I ask you, gentlemen, bY, 1\lr. WHITE of Maine. · And this would be a duplication of virtue of ·the general organization of his executive depart· '\TOrk which is already under '\\ay under the Shipptng Board's ment, have conferred upon him the powers here sought to be authority? conferred by this section-the power and the duty of investigat :Mr. EDMONDS. Yes; a complete duplication of work; and it ing the natu:r,:e of water transportation, of terminal facilities seems to me it would be a complete waste of time and money. I and p01~t facilities, and wharves and docks, and things of that think the gentleman will realize that the question of.ports and sort-which do not belong, as a matter of conclusion and fair facilities is a \ery important one in building up the merchant reckoning, within the legitimate powers of the Secretary of marine, and if it is intended to enact a lot of "buckshot legisla War, but do, on the contrary, legitimately belong to the Ship- tion " in regaru to the merchant marine, you might as. '\\ell give . ping Board, which this Congress has created, with this as the up trying to build it up. · very purposes of its creation, in the exercise of their juris l\fr. JOHNSON of Washington. 1\Ir. Chairman, '\\ill the gen diction? .. tlenwn yield? I do not think it -woulu be any affront to the distinguished Mr. EDMONDS. Yes. Committee on Interstate anu Foreign Commerce to considel."' 1\Ir. JOHNSON of Washlngton. I would like to ask if in the this amendment from the aspect I have suggested. gentleman's opinion section 211 "-·ould apply to the investigation l\1r. WHITE of 1\faine. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman of the Panama Canal navigation? yield? Mr. EDMONDS. I think it would apply to everything in this 1\fr. BANKHEAD. In a moment. I realize it is almost an country and in foreign countries. It does not seem to be lim- impossible thing to get in here an amendment against the advice i tell to anything. · and l'ecommendation of a great committee like the one -whose . 1\ir. JOHNSON of Washington. It is \ery broad. bill we are now considering. But, gentlemen, I appeal to you Mr. EDMO -:-Ds. Ye ·; it is sery broau. It is not limitecl to on this proposition, as a matter of careful and serious impor this country. tance. in the direction of building up our merchant marine and · Mr. HARDY of Texas. 2.\t:r. Chairman, '\\ill the gentleman our water-transportation facilities, to giye . erious consideration yield? to this amendment upon its merits. CONGRESS! ON AL RECORD-HOUSE. ..L OVE~fBER 13, Now I yield to the gentleman from 1\Iaine. transportation, and,- to my mind, it sh<>ulU belong t<> the Sliip.. -Mr. WHITE of :Maine. I want to "Sugg -t to the gentleman ·ping B-oat·d. In nny ev-ent it should not be in th War Depart.. 1 that fhls provision doe" not in terms . eek to 1·epeal the existing ment. {..Applause.] authoritY. ' Mr.. R01VE. Mr.. Cl:lJlirmn.n, 1: niov~ to strike out the last The CHAIRl\IAN. The tlme of the gentleman from Alabama word. . -Gent1emen., the Committee on the Merchant Marine and has expired~ ' Fish"Cl'ies rook np this investigation in reference to l)Ort fnclU- Mr. ALEXANDER rose. ties 1n. July last. In that investigation we learned that the Mr. Sl\.lALL. l\Ir. Chairman, I ·offer n.n amendment. Shipping B<>ard lm.d been at work -on the question of port faclll- The CHAffil\IAN. ·The gentleman fr Now, the shipping n.ct3 b1 section 17, pnragraph 2, provides- shipped to particular ports and what can be taken from them. 't'efeiTing to cnrrlers by w.ater in for.e1gn eomme.rce: They .ha\'e made a vecy careful surv~y and are having the re- Every such carrier and eYery .other person ubject to thls -ad: 1iliaH -sults of it published now. Not only that, but they have gone estabUsb, observe, and enfot•ee ju. t :md r easonable regulations atrd prac- to foreign ports to find out just what fadUtles there :ar~ there, tlces rehrtin"' to or conn:ectt>d with t~ .r.ecetving, bandl.tng, .storing, ·01' ;,. h b h (i~ivering of prop&ty. Whenever tlle board finds tbni: any FSuctt xegu- Wuat depth of water 1s, w at size of oats can enter, nnll :\'\' at Jn.tion or practice ls unjU t o.r unrea onnble it may rletermine, preser.lbe" · is called f01: in the various ports. and <>.r-der .enforced a just and 1·ensonatrle 'l'egu:intion o"t practice. Mr.. DENISON. The objection wllich .tbe .gentleman from Now, the phr-ase '11DY other }JerSOn u used iln the ~o-raph New York 1uts to this provision of the blll is that there would be just read is defined in seetion 1 of the shipping act. a follows: .a conflict of authority? The term " other person subject ·to this net" .means nny -person n<>t tr. ROWE. ExactlY; yes. · This new commission woulu be jncluded in the term " comnwn carcier by water." .carr.ying on the ·busi- :roing over the same work again. ne;s of forwarding .1r furnishing wh-arfage, doCk, nrehon e, or other tr. DENISON. Now, if we should J_imtt tb~ juri diction of tcrminnl facilities 1n connection wUh a common carrloer by water. the ecretary of War in this· bill to· the lnland waterways, It will be noted, first. that the person subject to tbe act is 'w.ou ld that .obviate the gentieman's ooj.eetion'?- req.uired to tablish~ observe, and enforce ja.st ana reasonable .Mr. ROWE. No .; ~ecatrse a ("food ·many of tlre in1:ll'K1 ·water I'egutations n.nd practices retatingto oreonnected Wlthwtiarfage, wa~s are .alrem:3y under the Shlpplng .Boa.rd., everything to tide d-ock, warehouse, m· otl1er terminal facilities In co.nhection witlt water, nnd the Great Lakes. a common carrier by wate1·; and, secund, that the Shipping l\Ir. DENISON. But those are not inland waterway. Board, if it finds such regulations or practices unjust or un- .M:r. ROWE. Y~s; the Great Lakes are~ :antl they -are now reasonable, may by order enforce reasonable regulations and n:nder the Shipping B The CHAIRUAN. Tile· gentleman from Wi cousin offers an Mr. SMALL. 1\Ir. Chairman, with reference to the ·amend a.mendment, which the Clerk will report. ments offered by the gentleman from Wisconsin [Mr. EscH], I The Clerk read as follows: think upon reflection he will conclude that the te.rm " inland Amendment by Mr. ESCII : Page 21, line 12, after the word "of,~' waterways " includes the Great Lakes ;. in ot~er word~, it d?CS insert the word " sueh." · not exclude them. I think on further rc:llection he will deetdc Mr. ESCII. Also, in line 13, after the woru "for," I ~?'""e to that he does not wish to exclude the Great Lakes from the bene insert the word " inland:' anu after the word " water msert fits to accrue from this in\estigation. the word " way," so that it will read " both fo1· inland water- Mr. ESCH. I do not. · - way traffic and for." . . - 1\Ir. Sl\IAI.L. So it will only exclude the harbors of the eolm The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from ;wisconsin -offers an n·y, and that is what the gentleman had in mind. amendment, wWch the Clerk will report. lS'ow, 1\lr. Chairman, if I may have the attention of the House The Clerk read as follows : for one -moment about this particular section. Personally I haye hee.n of the opinion for some years that thet·e should be Amendment by Mr. Escn: Page 21, ~ine .13, after the ~o;,U. "for,:; where it occurs the first time in the Une, msert _the wotd mland, ..,ome Federal agency authorized to make investigations of the and after tho word "water" insert the word ".w_ay." . _ problems connected with water transportation; some agency that Mr. ESCII. Also, in line 25, after the -- word "different," woul.cl collect data, that would haYe experts in the problem insert the word "inland." · of water transportation in its different aspects. I believe that The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the amendment. such an agency would go \ery fat· toward promoting water The Clerk read as follows: transportation. Amendment by Mr. Escu: Page 21, l_ine 2;:;, · after the word "di.tl'er Several weeks ago a muul>er of gentlemen met in ·washington ent," insert the word "inland." from the Atlantic seaboard, principally from the Mississippi 1\Ir. ESCH. .Also, on page 22, line 11, strike out the words Valley '\rlth se\eral Senators and Representati,es, to consider '' by water " and insert in lieu thereof the words " on inland some~ ~mendments to be offered to this railroad bill, and among waterways." - the amendments the idea of creating this Federal agency found The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the amendment. unanimous favor. One of the questions which arose was where The Clerk read as follows: should the agency be located? We considered the Shipping Page 22 line 11 after the word .. transportation," strike out the Board the War Department, and the Department of Commerce. worus "by' wat:(lX" 'and insert the words "on Inland waterways." After ~·ery careful consideration and conversation with the Sec 1\lr. HUMPHREYS. Will the gentleman yield? retary of Commerce and others of his department, I t}lin.k one 1\Ir. ESCH. Yes. . of the Yolunteer committee conferred with the cllairm:m of the Mr. HUMPHREYS. Does the gentleman wnnt to make any Shipping Board ; it was decided that the better place for it was change in line 7, page 22? in the Department of Commerce. And in order not to create a 1\Ir. ESCH. Yes; I mo\·e to insert the. word "inland" before new bureau,· it was considered that the Bureau of Foreign and -the word "water," line 7, page 22. · · Domestic Commerce was the best bureau in which to place this , The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk wlll report the amendment. authorization. The Clerk read as follows: May I call your attention to the organic act creating the - Page 22, line 7, betore the word " water," insert the word "inland." Department of Commerce. In section 3 it says " it slmll be the province of said department to foster, promote, and -develop, Mr. SMITH of Michigan. Will the gentleman yield? and so for~h, transportation facilities of the United States." l\fr. ESCH. Yes. Iri section 8 of the act creating the department it says that Mr. SMITH of Michigan. Does inland waterways include the Secretary of Commerce and Labor-it was then both in one the Great Lakesr· · department_:_shall annually make a report in writing to Con· Mr. ESCH. The Great Lakes are under the jmisuiction of the gress, ' and so forth, and among .other topics says " transp(}rta· Shipping Board by the Shipping Board act. tion facilities of the United States, and make such recommenda· :Mr. SMALL. 'Vlll the gentleman yield? tions as he shall deem necessary for the effecti\e performance Mr. ESCII. I will. of the duties and pl.1rposes of the department." Mr. SMALL. Would it be the purpose of the gentleman to Mr. ESCH. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield! exClude the Great Lakes and harbors; in other words, wllnt Mr. SMALL. Yes. does the gentleman havo in mind by the expression- "inland Mr. ESGH. What has the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic ' waterways"? Commerce done under that organic act in the way of promoting 1\fr. ESCH. The exclusion of the coast terminals. transportation, outside of publishing some annual statistics? l\Ir. S?tiALL. Would yout: language also exclude the Great Mr. Sl\IALL. Until the Federal-control act was passed there Lakes? _ . was maintained in the Department of Commerce one or two men Ml'. ESCH. I think it would. It seems to me, 1\Ir. Chairman, who investigated waterway problems-! recall Mr. Parker, of that we can rightfully give this jurisdiction to the Secretary New Orleans, who was a very competent man-but in the aggre of " •ar through the Engineer Department, because of the large gate they haYe done \Cry little. · In that respect I think that experience members of the Engineer Corps have had with the department has not been clothed with the responsibilities and peculiar inland water transportation of the United States. No duties originally intended. The merits of this section which other body of the Go.vernment has control of inland wate1~ trans the committee has included in the bill, however, are in¢1.ependent portation. They get it because they are the body that sees that of the other question of where authority shall be louged, and navigation is maintained on the mland waterways, and the my main' purpose in rising-- Engineers have developed that navigation. In connection with The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Korth thn.t work they have more or less e2..1>erience in handling ·ships, Carolina has expired. vessels and boats, and, above all that, they have the experience 1\Ir. SMALL: Mr. Chairman, I a k unanimous CO ll,Sent to pro in the 'development of the types of tows and barges for inland ceed for two minutes more. water transportation. Tile Shipping Board has no knowledge · The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection? of such matters _and the Emergency Fleet Corporation bas no There was no objection. - knowledge of such matters. Mr. SMALL. My main purpose in rising was to ask the com Tbe CHAill?t1AN. The Chair will state that before the vote mittee to give careful consideration to the amen of Engineers, under the 'Var_Department; have given considera Shipping Board jurisdiction was only ·conferred on it to operate ... tion to some of the questions here, ·the matter of terminals, foi or to supervise the operation of ocean steamships and perhaps instance, and while the distingliisbed Chief of Engineers, Gen. some on the Great Lakes. They have never had any jurisdic Black, who is about to retire, is particUlarly well equipped with tion over inland waterways. They have no bureau or division knowledge of some of the problems of water transportation, it which is now equipped to make the investigation which is set remains true, as a rule, that engineers are n·ained in engineer out in this section with reference to in ~ an Mr. LINTIDCUl\I. Mr. Chuinuan, I 'mo'e to strike out the of money, ltlrlCh I hold in my hand. I w·Du1d be yery glad to 1ilst four word.& · . return it to mfy 1\IembE>r who can establish to my satisfaf thiS country. We have The CHAIRl\lA.."N". The question is on agrceinri to the amend' deYoted very little time to · ascertaining what business we .can ffieJ!ts offered by the gentleman from Wisconsin {1\Ir. EscH], procure for trafiic along those waterways. It is a recognized which, without objection, will be considered as one amendment. fact that the watenvays nre far more reasonable for traffic than The amendment was agl"eed to. are the· railroads. And the -congestion durmg the late war ha.-g The CHAIRl\I.A.N. Does the gentleman from North Carolina shown us the great necessity of developing waterways in times ' {Mr. SMALL] desire t() offer the amendment whi<>h he had ~~~~ . I under consideration t - Now, just "Whether or not tllis ought to rest with th_e Shipping Mr. SMALL. Yes. Board, or whetlier it ought to go to the Department of Com The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Nortlt Carolina offer merce, or whether it ought to remain as it is in the ):>Ui and ~ith an amendment, which the Clerk will report. the Engineers of the War Department, is a ·question wbi.eh ought The Clerk read as follows : to be considered and determined at this tim~ ·permanently. Amendment offered by Mr. S:.taLL: Page 21, lines 7 and 8, aft~r the There ought not to be any duplication of- work. . And while word "thel~ in line 7, strike <>ut " Secretary of W.ar" and insert " Sec· - th t retary ol umuneree." In tine 8 strike out the words " Chief ·of Engi- spenking .on that subject, I might pote to the c ha.i. rnmn a neers" :and insert "Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce." there. is no limitation to this investigation and there is no 'The CHAIRl\!AN. The -question is on agreeing to the umend- , l.il::Oitation to the amount -·of money to be expended 00 it. It mBnt offered by the -gentleman from Nortll Carolina. niay continue for the n·eXt 10 or '20 years. It may -cost -vast The question was taken, and the amendment was rejected. ''Sums of money. There is nothing in the bill to show us when Mr. ALEXAl\""DER. Mr~ Chairman, I would like to ask the ·we shall _get result's or what the expense will be. But it does gentleman ft~om ~lSeonsin, the chairman of the committee, a seem to me we otight to huYe some amenum'ent by whlch we · question. I understood the gentleman f-rom Wisconsin to ::=a:r, will get some .early results from this investigation. We ought in answer to the inquiry of some one on this side, that the to· know something about what this investigation is going to inland lvaterw.ays do not include the Great Lakes. Is that the cost us. · · gentleman's opinion? . Now, the chairman of the -committee in nmending this see- Mr. ESCH. "''Inland waterways" would not inclu Mr. EDMONDS. Mr. Ohairmap, -I think this is simply UI! 1\Ir. EDMONDS. Doe · the gentleman expect to get any· rnte attempt to bring the waterways of this country under_the juris- out of the Interstate Commerce Commission that "·ould make diction of the Interstate Commerce Commission. They have the waterways successful? been there in the past and have been stifled by the railroaqs. Mr. WELTY. This question is only as to Ule investigation. Again, we arc enacting legislation that will begin to place these They are trying now to say that the Great Lakes are not waterways under the railroad commission, a commission that inland waterways. They have appropi~iated $250,000 in the last in all good reason we can only expect will do their best to Congress for the purpose of making a survey and ha\e au make the railroads operative an the Sandusky Ri through · Columbus to ~ hi.o Riv-er at agement -of -the wate'l.'' Srippzy, lthc r.e.slllts he.r.ein .arrived .at ought to 'be more than re.ali.zed. . rn parti:cu.lar, the ea:na.l pri m should be mr.ge Port ·mouth ; third., the ~stern route, from Lake Erie, at Toledo~ enough to permit -a temporary tise of at 1east 2 feet in the watc:1· via the valleys of the 1\Iaumec and Angla.ize Rivers, to the sm·faec for the sto111ge of summer freshet , whieh would · otherw· stunmit level -across the dh·ide bet~een the St. Mar~·s Rh·e1·, a ~lost. tributary of tbe Maumee "River\ and Loramie Creek, a tributar~· Pro-bably uo action was taken by Congre s on this \1.-eport of of "the Miami River, thence along the MiAmi Valley, via Datton 1800, because a.t that tlme the Ohio River aml its 'tributaries :ind Hainilton, to· th~ Oblo River at Cineinnati. had not been improved for navigati-on. An ~a.minn..tlon '()f Originally these three .canals were built lli:tder acts .of Con the records di ·closes that it will I have referred only to the largest ;·ysterns, but to emphasize provided that boat·d, however, with authority to make investi both the excessiveness of the standard, which· this bill adopts, gation with refei:ence to the shipping, not only of our Nation it may be well to suggest that the following will have. for their but of other nations, tbe great objeCt being to bUild up a great stockholders: merchant marine. We clothed it with authority to can on the Bessemer & Lake Erie Railroad co ______a-n: i2 President ·of the United .States at any time for an appor}t ion- 'fhe Chicago & Erie Railroad CO------70. 45 ment to it of· such officers from the Army as might be needed New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk Hailroad Co ______:_ _.;.__ !l5. 74 in its investigations in engineering work, and the Shipping '.rbe Cumberland Valley Hailroad Co ______.,:______24· 01 Board has utilized Gen. Black, of the Engineer Corps. They The Lehigh & Hudson River Railway Co·------:27. ns barlt>ston & Western Carolina Railwa~ Co------21. G7 have made a great investigation as to our necessities. Now, I Duluth, ~iissabe & Nortbern Railway co ______:__ 114. 12 think to take from them a great portion of their duties anE.l Duluth & Iron Range Railroad CO------38. 27 in t l'anhandle & Santa Fe Railroad co ______..:.______64. 37 b eg o d'vid1 e an d d'tS trib u t e .th e work th· a t ought t o b e ·d one Rt. Louis, Brownsville & Mexico Uailway Co------:i2 71 under the Shipping Board is a great mistake. Gentlemen, what Colorado & Wyoming Railway Co ______162. 64 I want to :say is that the shipping ·of this country is one single These are a tounding figui·es which it seems the committee project. Ships come from the seas up the rivers and dis bas overlooketi altogether, especially when it is generally known tribute the products from overseas as well as from other States that approximately $8,000,000,000 of the stock .In these railroads intrastate. What we want to do is to build up one grand sys is watered and has no value. Aml, again, Congt·ess is going to tern, and there ought to be one body in charge of that shipping tax the people for another six months in order that these rail- interest, the water shipping interest of the United States. We 1·oads may have the Incomes specified above. give part of it to the War Department, and I want to call your Another matter that this bill is doing is the transfer of all attention to the absurdity, it seems to me, of the very language of the rate making from the State to the Federal Government, of this section. What has the War-Department to do with the and docks built by municipalities or States from funds co1lected object of encouraging and developing water transportation 1 ... from theil· own people will be controlled by the Federal Gov- faciLities in connection with the commerce of the United States'? ernment instead of the municipality and the several States. The Shi-pping Board, 011 the other hand, is a commercial body. Again, the bill authorizes new loans to the railroads out cf The War Department has nothing to do with that. It is also to the Tr('asury of the United States, and no extension or improve- investigate the appropriate type of boats suitable for different ment can be made unless the Interstate Commerce Commission, classes of waterways, to investigate the ubject. of water termi located at Washington, grants permission to make these im- nals, both for water traffic and for through traltic by water ami pro,·ements or exten-sions. raiJ, including the necessary docks, warehouses, and so fort11. These are only a few objections that I lutve been able to ills- Now, we have got a great body, which has spent a good deal of cover the short tlme the bill was available. Again, I can not money_which has done wonders in investigation. True, it was understand why a bill which has taken the committee months only created in 1916 and could not accomplish much iJ1 that to prepare should now receive only a week's consideration by length of time; but that body, fostered .by this Congress, clothed the Iiouse. Because of the work on the immigration committee with proper jurisdiction and appropriation, will do more to and the special eJections committee, I have bci'n unable to ex- ·help the people tt secure a mercJ;Iant. marine. And you can not amine this bill before it was consider~d in the House. In fact, cut that in two and make one part_inland and the other ocean. it was not filed until Monday, and the House began consideration We want one body controlling the merchant marine of the on Tuesday. and under a rule was continually in session from United Stat~s that is to be built up, and we ought to put tlih; 10 o'clock In the morning until Jute at night in order to finish power in the Shipping Board. It really does not. have any place this most ·tmportant piece of.legimation which will likely come :in this bill, which has reference to giving back the railroads, before this Congress. · unless we purpose by our course to- subject the inland shipping Unless these and other matters are eliminated I will be con- of the country to the dominatio11 of the railroads, as it has been strained to vote against it, even though I deeply realize that Con- for the last 2-5 years to my knowledge, with the result we gress must pass some law to control the roads before they arc have had no inland shipping, and the Mississippi might as \Veil retut·ned to the owners. be an island sand stream as for the commerce it has carried, J\lr. HARDY of Texas. :\lr. Chairman, I ask unanimous con- and we can not get a boat up the Brazos or the Trinity Rivers sent to procE'ed for five minutes. at all~- The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Texas asks unani- The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. ruous consent to proceed for five minutes. Is there objection? Mr. HARDY of Texas. And we could not get them if they Mr. ESCH. :Mr. Chairman, I move that all debate upon this were 40 fE>et deep and 2,000 feet wide. section- The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment offeretl by The CHAIRMAN. All debate upon the amendment anl.l the the gentleman from New York, which .the Olerk will again report. amendment to the amendment is closed. Gentlemen are pro- The amendment was again reported. · ceeding only by unanimous consent. The CHAII-tMA1~. ·The question is on agreeing to the amenll- Mr. ESCH. Is debate on the whole section also closed? ment. The CHAIRMAN. No. The question was taken, and t.h~ amemlment was rejectetl. Mr. s:MALL. Will the gentleman permit an interruption? Mr. McLAUGHLIN of Michigan. :Ur. Chairman, I wish to :Ur. ESCH. I will say close in 10 minutes. offer an amendment. I wish to amend the amendment offere<.l The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from \Visconsin moves by the gentleman from Missouri Pir.... UEXA.!'IJ)ER] by :-:trikiu~ that debate upon the section and aU amendments thereto be out the worfl "not." closed in 10 minutes. · The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from ::\lichigan offers an The question was taken, anc.l the motiou was agreed to. amendment, which tl1e Clerk will report. ~Ir. ;.\1cLAUGHLIN of Michigan. Mr. Chairman, a parlia- The Clerk read as follows: ruentary inquiry? ~ Amendment offered by l\Ir. 'McL3.CGHLI~ of Mic.hlgan to the amend- The CHAIRMAJ.'iT. The gentleman n·om 'Iexas has been ment offered by Mr. ALEXANDER: Strike out the word " not." recognized; if the gentleman from Texas will yield for that The CHA.IRMA.."N". The Clerk will report tile amendment as it purpose. , . . · . J will read if amended. - Mr. HARDY of Texas. ~f ~~ docs not ~orne ?ut of. my hme. . The Clerk read as follows: Mr. McLAUGHLIN of :\l1Ch1gan. I Will wa1t until the gentle- 1 Amt>ndment offered by Mr. ALEXA~DER: Page 22, at the en ' 8478 OONGRESSIONAL R.ECOR.D-HOUSE. N OVE1\IllER 13 ' lli. LANKFORD. n.rr. Ohairman, I offer an amendment.. The CHAIRMAN. The que ·tion· is.on agreeing to the amend~ The CHAIR!IAN. The gentleman from Georgia offers an ment offered by the gentleman from Mi ouri. . :liDCiidment, which the Olerk will report. The question was tal.:en, and tl10 amendment was rejected. The Clerk read as folio'\\-~ : Mr. RAYBURN rose. Amendment offered by Mr. LANK5'onn : Page 22, line G, utter the The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Texas is recognized. word "railroads," insert: "To investigate the feasibility and prac· Mr. RAYBURN. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike out the last ticability o! proposed canals and canaltmproyements." word, for the purpose of making an inquiry of the chairman of Mr. SMALL. - Mr. Chairman, I would like to re. ene a point the commlttee. of order on that. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Texas moTe to striko Mr. LANKFORD. 1\Ir. Ohairman- out th~ last word. Mr. RAYBURN. Mr; Chairman, I believe that all time is ex:· Mr. RAYBURN. 'Ve ha\e now completed Title II and arc haustetL coming to Title III, one of the most conh'o-rersi.al titles, I am Mr. TILSON. Is not all the debate exhausted? sure, in the bill. The House has sat more than seYen hours The OIIA.IRMAN. It "\\'llS limited to 10 minutes, and there and a half t~day already. · It seems to me that it wguld be a are 2 minutes remaining. The gentleman from Georgia. is very good idea to l"ise at this time before we start in with ·recognized. . Title III, ~d t11~ ~e · CD..t! co~ider it all at one sitting of the Mr. LANKFORD. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the com~ House to~morrow. I just waht to get the gentleman's idei\ mittee, it seems to me that this amendment is proper. I can about what be intends to do. not see any reason why this Board of Engineers should not, Mr. ESCH. I will say that after conferences with quite a along with their other duties, investigate the feasibility and number of Members of the House, it was thought preferable to practicability of canal improvements. They arc purely inlancl run nntil 7 o'clock t~nigllt and not recess and not bold a session waterw~ and should be considered in connection with other after dinner. It was thought it would be difficult to hold a inland waterway improvements. It seems to me there can be quol'Um after recess and that it would not be so difficult to hold no just argument against the adoption of this runendment.. I one without a reces if we sat until 7. submitted the amendment to the gentleman from Wisconsin 1\>Ir. RAYBURN; It is usually harder to hold n. quorum from [Mr. Esmr], the chairman of the committee, before I offered 6 until 7 than it i. later in the eYening. it,. and I hope that he wm agree with me that it is proper and Mr. ESOH. We hope we can make progress on the labor will no,t injure the section, but will really help it and make the section. It is not likely that we ·hall conclude consideration law a betier one. of the labor section to~night. Mr. BARKLEY. 'Vill the gentleman permit an inq.uiry? 1\Ir. RAYBURN. I think not.. Mr. LANKFORD. Yes, sir. Mr. ESOH. But there are some preliminary matter. that Mr. BARKLEY. Will that apply to canals not yet con~ might be disposed of this evening. structed? Will it make it necessary for these engineers to go · Mr. NOLAN. 1\Ir. Chairman, I a..:k unanimous con~t that and report on the feasibility and practica.bllity of some canal I may haYe a mo~ent in which to ask a question of the gentle·. that some canal .companr would want to build iil a certain man from Wisconsin, in charge of the bill. section of the country? The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from California asks unani. Mr. LANKFORD. It would authorize them to inYestigate mons consent to interrogate tho gentleman from Wisconsin. I , the feasibility and practicability of such eanal. there objection? Mr. SMALL. Mr. Chairman, I make the point ot order that There was no objection. the amendment is not germane. This section authorizes the The CHAIRMAN. Will the gentleman from 'Vi.Bcon in plea · Secretary of War. with .the object of promoting, encouraging, give heed to tho gentleman from California? and developing wate1• transportation, to do certain . things. Mr. NOLA.l'f. I would like to suggest to the chail·man of the - The amendment of the gentlemaJ?. proposes an investigation of committee, oi· rather would like to ask him, if it woulrl not be proposed can~. I think it is not germane to the section. possible to pass over Title III to~night ancl pass on to the con· · The CHAIRMAN. The amendment o1tered by the gentleman sideration of Title IV, so that all tho Membel'S of the House from Georgia· proposes to investigate the feasibility and prac· would know tlla.t Title III "\\'Ould be taken up immediately in ticability of proposed canals and canal improvement..,. The the morning? Chair will state ·that this section under consideration contains · · Mr. ESCH. I think there is a good aYerage attendance here this language: now, and we might '\\'ell proceed in regular order with the con· And to investigate any other matter .that may ten(l to promote and sideration of the bill. There are some Members who arc inter encourag~ water transportation. ested in Title IV who understood it would not come up to··night In the opinion of the Chair the proposed amendment w-ould und whQ arc not now present. be germane to the section containing such broad language as Mr. NOLAN. Is there any · pro ·pect o.f prolonged tliscussiou that relating to investigating matters· pertaining to \'f'ater on that title? transportation. Therefore the Chair oyerrules the 11oint of Mr. ESCH. .Amendments might be offered. order. The question is on the amendment offered by the gentle· The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from California man from Georgia [Mr. LANKFOlW]. has expil·ed. The question was taken, and the Chair annotmcetl tlln.t the Mr. SMALL. 1\Ir. Chairman, I a k unanimous con ent to ex~ noes seeti:ied to haYe it. tend my remarks in the RECORD. ~fr . LANKFORD. A division, 1\Ir. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Is t11ero objection? The CHAIRMAN. A diYision is demanded. There "·as no objection. The committee divided; and there werc-::ty 21; noe 70. Mr. SEARS. Mr. Chairman, I a k ummimou con ·cnt to ex~ So the amendment was rejected. tend my remarks. The CHAffiMAN. The question now is on agreeing to the 1\Ir. WELTY. 1\Ir. Chairman, I make the same r que t. motion of the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr.. EDMO:-."Ds), to Mr• .ALEXA.l\'DEH. I make the same :reque ·t. strike out the section. 1\lr. RAYBURN. I make the same request. The question was taken, aml the Chair announced that the nl.r. BRIGGS. Antl I the same. aye appeared to ha\e it. l\Ir. KELLER. I make the same rcqu t. Mr. EDMONDS. A division, 1\fr. Chairman. Mr. BARKLEY. I ask unanimous con ent, Mr. Chall.·m:ln, to The CHAIRMAN. A division is demanded. revise and extend my remarks made in general debate. The c-ommittee divided; and there were--aye 43, noe.· 75. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Kentucky asks unani~ So the amendment was rejected. mons consent to eAt;end his remark made in general debate. 1\lr. Bli.AND' of 1\fisso'uri. Mr. Chairman, a pl:lrliamcntary Is there objection? inquiry. There was no objection. •' . The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state it. The CHAIR.M.A.l~. I there objection to any of these rc~ 1\lr. BLA...'\'D of Missouri. Is it too· late to offer an amend· quests? [After a pause.] The Ohair h ar · none. The Clerk ment to this section: will read. The CHAIRMAN. No. The motion to strike out being lost, The clerk read as follows : . u motion to strike out untl insert would be 1n order. TI.TLE IlL-DISPUTES BET'I\'EEX C.illRlEU AXO TI.U:u:. E~lrLOi'EES. · · Mr. BLAl~D of Mis ouri. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amend~ SEc. ~00. When used in this title- rnent. The term "carrier" means any. carrier, engaged in the transpot·tation of passengers or property, subj~t to tbe commerce act, except a carrier The OHAIDMA.l'\f. The Clerk, will report the amendment engttged ln tho tr:insportation of property by pipe line ; and offered by the gentleman ft-om :Missonli. 'l'be term· " union" means any national craft, trade, labor, or indus trial organization of employees, 5,000 or more of who c members are The Clerk read as follows: employees of cil.rric.rs. Amendment offered by Mr. BL.u;n ot Missouri: Page 21, line 8, after the word " Engineers." insert " with aU reasonable dl ·patch and.'~ · 1\lr, ESCII. i\rr. Chairman, I offer an amendment. 1919. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. - - - ~ 8479 The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from WiSn. when they would be idle. Now, if we are going The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman wUt stot1:!-1t. to have a labor appeal board, why do we not have one that can Mr. JOHNSON of Wa.shiilgton. I desir-e to offer a substitute decide a~ labor disputes as they arise in the country and not to the enti1·e Title Ill, and I d.o not wish to lase my rights. limit them jul"t to railroads? · The CHAIRAIAN. The gentleman ean not offer a -substitute 1\rr. DENISON. WllJ th~ gentleman yield? for the entire title. It will have to be done. 'as the sections :Mr. BLANTON. In a moment. Just one other thought~ are read. · The Supreme Court sits right down the corridor here, with nine 1\fr. JOHNWN ·of WashingtoD. 1· dlslil 1\lr. BARKLEY. Mr. Chairman, I make the point of order groups thereafter to strike in order to obtain their demands in issue that the motion is not in Ol~der. It Is not offered as a substitute 1 ~~c~ic~o~~iYi~:Y~rau:f~fcided by the board is hereby prohibited and for the pending amendment. . . . ' SEc. 305. If after such hearing and finiling of the board an em- The CHAIRMAN. The Chair sustains the point of order". T_he 1 ployer common 'carrier or· carriers shall fail or refuse to abide by such fintlings, such carrier or carriers shall be· liable for the full damageH question is on the amendment offered by the gentleman from to any employee o1· group of enwloyees, whether members of any Jabot· Wisconsin. · · . union or orgamzation1 or not, arising from such breach. Any labor' union, or any employee, or group of employees, may commence and The question was taken, and the amendment was agreeu to. prosecute an action for the recovery. of the amount due, and in such Mr. 'VEBSTER. · 1\Ir. Chairman, I again, by way of amend case the court_ shall include in any )udgment rendered in favor of any ment to section 300, offer a substitute for that" section and all ~mployec, nni~n, . or~ization, or- group of employees the costs of the a<;tlon, includmg a reasonable attorney's fee, which, when 1·ecovere The CHAIRMA.J.V. The point of order will lie to the entire that this snb titute is not germane to. the ..oections of the bill. I sub titute at this time. can not agree with the statement made that fundamentally, the M:r. ESCH. :M:r.- Chairman, the substitute just rea{} makes two plans are different. Rather, it seems to me, they are funda· the award practically runndatocy and nny violation of it un4 mentally alike. and do ely cognate~ since they have a comJJlO.n lawfuT. There is ·no sucll provision in the pending measure, purpose, and seek to make that purpose effective ·1·espectively, thus differentiating the two measures in a very marked degree, through specially constructed boards. Having this much in because it is the method of enforcement after all that is the common, a large latitude a.s to details may be allowed, without. crucial question in this labor legislation. It is practically destruction of the kinship between the two. I submit that upon. offering a criminal statute, whereas in the bill that is presented the whole, the substitute plan is reasonably akin to the plan· here before the Hou e it is simply a right of action for ci vii of tl1e bill, and is therefore germane, and in: .order damages. The CH.AIR..'\!AN. The gentleman from Washington [Mr. Mr. ANDERSON. Mr. Chairman; if the contention of the WEBsTER] offers an amendment by way of subst1tute consisting gentleman f1·om Wisconsin [l\Ir. EscH] should be sustained. it of some six or eight sectiOilS amending the proYisi.ons of Title would be utterly impossible to ofl'er any amendment to Title Ill of the bill, section 300 of that title having been read. The. III which differentiates itself in any way from the provisions title of that portion of the bill to wh1cll the amendment is of that title as carried in the bil1. TitleJ-IIld s 'an attempt on offered is headed, .. , Disputes between employers and their em the part of the legislature to {leal in a complete 'and 'positive ployees." The various sections of the b1U set up and provide way with the entire question of labor disputes in connection certa~n .machinery by whleh disputes between carriers and their with the operation of the railroRds under this bill, and the employees may be adjusted. Provision 1s made for the appoint mere fact that the amendment of the gentleman from Wm;hing ment of certain groups of employees, representntives of car· ton [Mr. WEBSTER] proposes an entirely different method, or in riers, representatives of the express compaHles, as well as Tep one particular deals with the problem in a di1l'e1·ent way, than resentatiYes of the public. The procedure of settling and the proposition of the committee does not render the amend adjusting these differences is set forth in the bllll. The powers ment of the gentleman rrom Washington subject to the point of an'd duties of the organization provided for are .also set forth. order as not being germane. I do not agree with ·the provisions Tbe bill as reported provides for two boards or two bouies tbnt the gentleman from Wa llington has offered, but t11e duty which shan consider disputes affecting labor upon carriers. of the Chair is clearly not only to protect the House and the First is the adjustm·ent board. as it is called, the members of committee from amendments \vhich are not germane, but the which are directed to refet• dispute.s to a conference committee, duty of the Chair is also to protect the right of a Member to and thereafter the matter is passed on to what is known as offer n.n amendment which is germane. As I have said, if an the board of labor appeals. The board o1 tabo:r appeals is amendment is held to be not germane simply because in one a boarcl appointed under the provisions of the act, with au particulru· or in many partkula1-s it denls '\\ith one subject thority to make its findings, for the disregard of which by in a different way than that which is proposed in the bill then either the carrier or employee suits arc autburized to bo it will neve~· be posRible to offer an amendment at all. brought against the property of the carrier OT against the com The CHAIRMAN. Dues the gentleman fl'om Kentuck--y {Mr. mon property of the organization of employees in suCh sum BARKLEY] desire to be heard on the point of order? . . as may be determined upon in damages. Now., that is in a Mr. BARKLEY. Not if the Chair is· ready to rule. I do sense, in the view of the Chalr~ a penalty imposed upon either not care to take up time. unnecessarily. party In the disput~ for disregarding or falling to foUow the The CHAill.i\lAN. The Chair will be glad to hear the gentle findings of this organization provided for in tbe bill, a penalty man, although the ChaiJ: is reauy to role. by way of a civil suit authorized to recove~ damages. This 1\tr. BARKLEY. The labor provision of the bill as reported in general very briefly outlines the procedure nnd the machin- to the House creates certain machinery t eomlllou carrier or carriers ha · '*een . ubmitted to the board and Mr. WEBSTER. But the member of a unlon incurs a burden until the board bas maae a finuing thereon: as well as a benefit when he joins the otganization, and if his ¥ It also provides: o:ganization, acting in matters perta~ing tp .its jurisdi<;tion, · If the employer common catTier or carriers conform to the findings bmds him he can not say he has acted against his wiTI.· He ot the board, tbe right of such group or groups thereafter to strike in order to obtain their demands in issue in the controversy thus decided goes into the union knowing it jurisdiction and authority with· by the boat·d is hereby prohibited and such act shall be unlawful. respect to calling str~ke '. The c·hau· thinks that the effect of this provision is to say Mr. VAILE. I merely wanted tp get the gentleman's position that, while the machinery set up by the substitute is operating on it. I · think the result would be very unfair. and considering the dispute, one of the group of parties or Mr. W~BSTER. _ If you would und~rtake . to confine the. levy clJlSS of parties 'which is subject to the dispute shall not of execution ·on the propetty of the individual members of the union who were personally pi·esent at the tim the action .was strike, as it is used in the language of the substitute, ~nd that, if they do, It is unlawful, · and that the right of this group to taken .and who voted in tl~e affirmative in calling the ·sti:ikc, strike in orde1· . to obtain their demands is prohibited. This you would nullify· this se~tion, There would be no way to raises a different question than that presented by the language establish either fact. Their ses ioris are secret. There would of the original bill. 'l'he original bill, as the Chair recalls, does be no means by which yon would be able to determine Nhich individuals voted or how: • not use the term" strike,'~ but considers this question as a mat ... • - • - l • '·~ • • ~ l ter of dispute between employees and employers. However, the l\11.'. B_LA.l'ITON .. 'Mr. .Chairman, will the gentleman yield? language of section 30-:l of the substitute is such as to limit the 1\Ir. WEBSTER. Yes; I ·yield to the gentleman from Texa . f{eedom of action, so to speak, while certain people remain em l\fr. BLANTON .. I agree with one feature· of the gentleman's P.loyees, in prescribing what they shall ·not do while their dis amendment-that it should be a final settlement whatever ac- . pute is being considered and after it bas been determined or tion is taken. That was the general principle on which I agreed settled. with the gentleman all through. But I notice that the gentle · While tlli.s goes much beyoml the scope of the original hill, man absolutely overlooked the general public in this decision. and while the Chair realizes that it is perhaps a close question; Whlle the carriers · and employees form probably not more in the view of the Chait· tho provision of section 304 is not such than three or four or fiye million persons, the general public as would impel the Chair to rule· the provision as not germane. outside of either interest is composed of .about 105,000,000 He 'vould hold that provision as germane to the provisions of persons. 'Vhy is the general public overlooked in the repre· the bill. The mere fact that the substitute provides it shall be sentation? , maue unlawful instead of providing that the penalty shall be b-y Mr. WEBSTER. Docs ·the gentleman from Texas believe wa~ · of a civil sult.for damages does not take it out of the rule that the public interests are overlooked when the selection of of germaneness. this committee, including the chairmim if the eight members _ T~e ot~er sections of the subsy_tute provide that if after are unable to agree, i made by the Pre ident of the United· l!earmg either party shall fail to ab1de by the decision they shall States? · be subject to a suit for damages. Section 306 is somewhot Mr. BLAl.~TON. Oh, when you let a railroad corporation similar to the section in the orlglnal bill which pre\ents any· submit certain names from which four members are to be uody from aiding, abetting, or inciting anybody to break the selected those four members represent the railroad, and like- terms of any contract. Section 307 is simply giving a definition wise with respect to the union. · to the word "group" and also to the word "strike." That con· The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from w·ash tains a proviso : . ington has expired. That nothing herein shall lJo taken to deny to any individual the 1\lr. COOPER. l\fr. Chairman nnd gentlemen of the commit.; right to quit hill employment for any reason. tee, I think I express the sentiment of every member of the · Section 308 contains an appropriation for the fiscal year of Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce when I say $100,000. . . that this labor section gave us a great deal of ·thought and The Chair is of the opinion, upon an examination of tho worry. The committee did the very best they could on this terms both of the original blll and of the substitute, that question, and I know that our worthy chairman, l\11'. Esca, simply providing a different form of machinery in carrying per was -very fair at all times and that he did the best he could hap· further the effect of disregarding the findings of the ma to try and do justice to all. Something has been said here to chinery provided, and providing a different method of en day about what happened in the committee during the execu forcing the findings of the board, are not &'Uch differences as tive session. The Webster proposition was offered in the com would result in making the substitute out of order on the ground mittee, and of the 21 members of the committee it received of germaneness ; and the Chair therefore overrules the point only 2 votes. If you gentlemen of this House want to vote fOl· if of order. J a proposition which will prohibit a strike, you want to make The gentlemap from Washington [Mr. 'VEBSTER] is recognized. it permissible for the employer to go and take the home away Mr. WEBSTER. 1\Ir. Chairman, inasmuch as I discussed from the humble employee because he may have made some thi amendment at considerable length during the general de little mistake or made some remark relative to an adjustment bate, and its salient provisions have been clearly stated in made by a labor adjusting board down here in Washington, outline by the Chairman in ruling upon the point of order, I why vote for Judge WEBSTER's amendment. That is what it think I shall not further inflict myself upon the committee unless will do. The employer has the power under the Webster· some gentleman desires to ask me some question with reference amendment to take the home of e-very workingman who by to the amendment. voice or in any other way ad\ocates setting aside the decision Mr. VAILE. I would like to ask the gentleman a question. rendered by this board. · Mr. WEBSTER. Very well. Olt, yes, I have heard some Members.of the Hou ·e in the la t 1\lr. VAILE. I notice in. section 306 of the gentlelllil.ll's pro two or three days, all of whom profess to be friends of the posed substitute that he provides that any union .which author laboring man, express their views as to what they thought izes any member to strike shall be liable for full damages, anrl ought to be done to labor unions (I . wish I could believe that in . ubdivision 5 of the same section he provides: they were). The gentleman from Texas [1\lr. BLANToN'] com Satisfaction of nny judgment rendered shall be made from the prop plained here yesterday about not placing in -this bill ·a pro erty of the union or organizat:km or any member or members of the viSion to take away from the wife a_nd the little children of offending union. an employee the insurance upon which a man had been paying Let me suggest this inquiry to the gentleman: Suppose the · for years. The gentleman froni Te~as is a law;yer; I am "entl man now occupying the chair [Mr. WALSH] rind myself not, but I want to say to him that he knows t11at in' any cinl and the gentleman from Washington are members of a union. suit for damages... the life insurance of a man is always pro- · Two of us and those we represent vote to go on strike in vio tected, and.you can not levy on tbat life· insurance: lation of this contract. The gentleman from Washington votes Mr. BLANTON. · I am sure the geritleinan would not want again t the strike. He is outvoted and . the union goes out on to do me an inJury or to make a misstatement. · strike. Would · the judgment against the offending union be Mr. COOPER. I do not want to ·do the· gentleman an injury. sati ·fie ~lr. BLA.l"\;TON. I did not refer to insurance, but to a testa Mr. COOPER. You have such a provision in your amend- ment that would constitute funds of the organization. I merely ment, but you go further than that. mentioned the fact that we-- Mr. HUSTI~D. \Vill the gentleman yield? 1\Ir. COOPER. I am quite sure I rup not mistaken. I heard Mr. COOPER. I will yield to the gentleman. tlle gentleman's remarks; and I may be mistaken, but I do 1\Ir. HUSTED. I would like to ask the gentleman if he not believe I was. thinks the provisions in this bill would be more effectiYe in I\lr. Chairman and Members of the House, our Nation is con settling disputes between railroad employees and the employers fronted to-day with far more serious questions and problems than the old plan; and if so, why? The reason I ask the ques than we ever were at any time during the war period or in tion is that I do not see how these provisions will be very the entire history of our Nation, and I feel sure that one of the effective. greatest questions we are facing at this hour is the labor lli. COOPER. I shall be pleased to try and answer the gen problem. No one will deny that for some time past the radical tleman from New York a little later on. We all know that element ha"Ve got control of certain labor organizations and the since the war began in 1914 that the world-wide conditions conservative American labor leader has been pushed aside. have changed, and that we are passing through a reaction which I am one. of those who believe this would not have taken place we have never experienced before. When we took the railroads if it had not been for the war. There were many things dis over under Government control, the railroad employees were organized during the trying time of the war period, and labor, free, and they did not have their hands shackled and bound. to some extent, was no exception; and at this trying time of the I am not one of those who wants to send the railroads back reconstruction period I want to plead with you Members of to their orL,oinal owners and give to the operators benefits in Congress to go slow and consider well yow· actions when you the way of appropriations, loans, and so forth, so tl.lat they can attempt to strike at the radical agitator-and I will go all the operate the railroads in a successful way. But I also want to way with you along this line-that you do not unjustly injure grant to the employees of the railroads the same privilege. For and punish the decent, law-abiding, patriotic American work years arbitration has been successful in the settlement of labor ingman, of which there are hundreds of thousands in our disputes. country; and while I plead and stand by the true American There are people in this country to-day who seem to feel workingman, I can not find words to express my contempt for jubilant over the downfall of organized labor in the last three ! . the radi'Cals who to-day are trying to sow the seed of discontent or four months, and they believe.that now is the time to crush and lawl~ssness in the ranks of the laboring class at this hour. them entirely by reason of the action of some of the radical Mr. GOODYKOONTZ. Will the gentleman yield for a ques element; and most of the trouble has been brought about by a tion? radical element since the war began. But I am not one of those :Mr. COOPER. I yield to the gentleman from West Virginia. who want to make the conservative, decent, law-abiding A.meri- .. Mr. GOODYKOONTZ. I am very much interested in the sub can workmen suffer for something that the radical has done. ject. I have in my district fow· large terminal yards of rail [Applause.] • road-two on the Norfolk & Western, one on the Virginiail, The gentleman from IQwa [1\Ir. SwEET] has an amendment . and one on the Chesapeake & Ohio-and r feel very kindly which he will offer in place of Judge WEBSTER's proposition, ; toward those boys. I want to ask the gentleman what he thinks which" provides that the railroad employees will work along ' of this title as written in this bill, Title III? the lines that they always have done in trying to settle disputes. : Mr. COOPER I will be pleased to express myself on that The CHAIRi\IA...~. The time of the gentleman from Ohio has before we get through with this title. Now, surely this House expired. can not accuse me of being a radical or a Bolshevik. I have Mr. COOPER. May I ask for two minutes more? always, as the committee knows, favored conservative, honest 1\I:r. BLANTON. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent labor organizations. [Applause.] But I have never hesitated that the gentleman have five minutes more. to expose and attack anyone. whether he was a member of a Tbe CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the labor union or not, if he advocated anything that would cause gentleman from Texas? injury to others or was in violation of the Jaws of our country. . There was no objection. If I had my way about it, we would take this radical element l\Ir. COOPER. The railroad employees will try to settle these Bolshevists and soviets who are now stirring up disturb their disputes as they always have done in the past. In other ances from one end of the land to the other-and we would words, if the Sweet amendment is adopted, and I do not ·either put them in prison or send them out of the country. believe the committee will have very much objection to the A short time ago I stood on this floor and warned organized amendment, for I think it is along the line they want to work. labor and our country against the radical leadership of \Villiam The amendment provides that whenever a question is in dis Z. Foster, the anarchist and syndicalist, who has been so promi pute it is taken up by the local board. If the local board can nent in the steel strike. At the time I exposed Foster there not settle it with the superintendent, the general board takes were over 40,000 men in my distiict affected by this strike, hold of it and takes it to the general management. I am of the and I have been bitterly condemned for my action in this mat opinion that there will be many times when the local ancl . ter; but this matters not to me, for if there ever was a time general board can settle these disputes without bringing them when a 1\Iember of Congress should forget his future political to Washington at all. In case the general board can not agree, ambitions and stand for justice and law and order it is to-day ; then the question will be submitted to the board of dispute and God grant that the time will never come when I shall act here in Washington. the cowardly part for political expediency. I feel confident that if the employees-and I want to say The OHAIR.l\lAN. The time of the gentleman ha..:: expired. that the officials of the railroad labor organizations are a high Mr. COOPER. I ask unanimous consent to proceed for five class of intelligent, law-abiding American citizens-if they can minutes. I have not taken a minute's time on this bill before. only sit down at the table with equal representation of their The CHAIR~1AN. The gentleman asks unanimous consent employers, I do not believe that you will have very much labor that he may proceed for five minutes. Is there objection? trouble or many labor. disputes in the future as far as the There was no objection. · railroads are concerned. 1\fr. COOPER. :Mr. Chairman, there are some things in the If the amendment of Judge WEBSTER is adopted, you shackle committee provision that I would like to see· amended when and handcuff every laboring man so that if he should in any· we get to those sections, but the one underlying thought that case decide not to abide by the decision of this board, then the the committee had was to try, if possible, to organize some Gov employer can go into court and take his little home from him ernment tribunal whereby the railroad employees and employ and everything else that he has. I hope that the committee ers could come to a settlement of their disputes. I believe in will not adopt this amendment, but will accept the substitute that kind of arbitration. Why, for years the railroad employees offered by 1\Ir. ANDERSON, which is the Sweet amendment.. have met at the table with their management, and they have [Applause.] been able to settle their disputes, and I do not believe we have Mr. ANDERSON. l\fr. Cl1airman, I offer the following amend had any great general railroad strike in this country since ment as a substitute. 1894, and we all know that strike was led by a radical who :is The CHA.IR~rn. The gentleman from 1\.linnesota offers the now serving a term in one of our Federal prisons for his dis substitute, which-the Clerk will report. · loyal actions and utterances during the war. The Clerk read as follows : 1\fr. ·wEBSTER. · Will gentleman yield? the Amendment offered by Mr. ANDERSO:i to the substitute: After the Mr. COOPER. I yield to the gentleman. words " SEc. 300" trike out all the remainder of the substitute and in- Mr. WEBSTER. Does not the gentleman know that the substi sert the following : . "That it shall be the duty of all carriers subject to this act, and tute I ha>e propo ~ ed authorizes acontinuanceofthese>eryboards their agents, officers, and employees to exert every reasonable effort through the medium of ·which t11ese disputes have been settled? and adopt every available and reasonable means to avoid interruption LVIII--535 8484' . CONGRESSIO~ -y AL RECORD-HOUSE. NovEl\lliER 13. to the operation of a carrier subject to this act growing out of contro ployees of any of the carriers Rubject to this act as to such incorpora versy or dispute o>er any question of wages, working conditions, or tion, intent, or application, such questions of difference shall be decided discipline of employees. by the respective railway boards of adjustment when properly presented. " (.,lu estions affecting wages, working conditions, or discipline of em "Personal grievances or controversies arising under interpretation of ploy ee~ on a carrier's line shall be considered, and if possible adjusted wage agreements and all other disputes arising between officials of any in conference between representatives of the class or classes of em carrier subject to this act and its employees will be handled in their ployees affected, or to be _affected, thereby, and representatives of the usual manner by general committees cf their employees up to and ca.rrler or carriers designated or authorized by it to so act. If any including the chief operating officer of the carrier (or some one officially such question can not be adjusted in such conferences, it shall be re designated by him), when, lf an agreement is not reached, the chair ferred to the appropriate board of adjustment hereinafter provided for. man of the general committee of employees may refer the matter to the If such question can not be decided or adjusted by such board, it shall chief executive officer ()f the organization concerned; and if the con be referr ed to the commission on labor disputes hereinafter provided for. tention of the employees' committee is approved by such executive "Hoards a.re hereby created and established, to be known as railway officer of the organization, then the chief operating officials of the car board of adjustment No. 1, railway board of adjustment No. 2, and rier and the chief executive officer of the organization concerned shall railway board of adjustment No. 3, for the purpose of handling and refer the matter with all supporting papers to the proper railway board adjusting disputes that !la>e not otherwise been disposed of, affecting of n.djustment, which board shall promptly hear and decide the case, the question of wages, working conditions, discipline, and personal giving due notice to the chief operating officer of the carrier interested grievances of employees of carriers subject to this act. and the chief executive officer of the organization concerned of the "Railway board of adjustment No. 1, represented by the Broth~rll o od time set for hearing. of Locomotive Engineers, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and "No matter will be considered by the respective raHway boards of , En~inemen, the OrdeJ.' of Railway Conductors, and the Brotherhood of adjustment unless officially referred to them in the manner herein Railroad Trainmen. prescribed. "Railway board of adjustment No. 2, represented by the International "In hearings before the respective railway boards of adjustment, in A ociation of Machinists; the International Brotherhood of Boiler matters properly submitted for their consideration, the carrier shall Makers, Iron Ship Builders, and Helpers of America ; the International be represented by such person or persons as may be designated by the Brotherhood of BlacJ;:smlths and Helpers; the Brotherhood of Railway chief operating officer and the employees shall be represented by such Carmen of America; the .Amalgamated Sheet Metal Workers' Inter person or persons as may be designated by the chief executive officer national .Alliance; and the International Brotherhood of Electrical of the organization concerned. Workers. "All clerical and office expenses shall be paill by the United State. " Railway board of adjustment No. 3, revresented by the Order of Government. The carrier directly· concerned and the organization Railway Telegraphers, Switchmen's . Union of North America, Brother involved in the hearing will, respectively, assume any expense incurred hood of Railway Clerks, and the United Brotherhood of Maintenance of in presenting a case. Way Employees and Railroad Shop Laborers. ".All controversies growing out of questions of wages, the interpreta "In each case an effQrt should be made to present a joint concrete tion or application of the provisions of wage schedules or agreements statement of facts as to any controversy, but the respective boards are which are not promptly adjusted by the officials and the employees fully authorized to require information in addition to the concrete on any of the carrier lines subject to the provisions of this act, shall statement of facts, and may call upon the chief operating officer of th~ be disposed of in the following manner: carrier or the chief executive officer of the organization concerned for "There shall be created within 30 days after the passage of this act additional evidence either oral or written. · a board to be known as railway board of adjustment No. 1, to con ".All decisions of. the respective railway boards of adjustment shall sist of eight members, four to be selected and compensated by the car be approved by a majority vote of all members of such board. riers, subject to the provisions of this act, and one each by the "After a matter ha.s been considered by a board, and in the event a chief executive officer of each of the four organizations of employees majority vote can not be obtained, then any four members of rail hereinbefore named, and to be compensated by such organization. way board of adjustment No. 1 or any six members of railway board "There shall be created within 30 days after the passage of this act of adjustment No. 2 or any four members of railway board of adjust a. board to be known as railway board of adjustment No. 2, to consist ment No. 3, depending upon the· board considering tlte matter, may of 12 members, 6 to be selected :wd compensated by the carriers elect to refer the matter upon which no decision has been reached to subject to the provisions of this act, and 1 each by the chief execu the proper commission on labor disputes for a final decision. tive officer of each of the six organizations of employees hereinbefore "Each rail~ ay board of adjustment shall keep n complete and accu named, and to be compensated by such organization. rate r·ecord of all matters submitted for its consideration and of all "There shall be created within 30 days after the passage of this act decisions made by the board. a. board to be known as railway board of adjustment No. 3, to consist " Each railway board of alljustment shall file a report of all cases of 8 members, 4 to be selected and compensated by the carriers, sub decided, including the decision1 with the Interstate Commerce Com ject to the provisions of this act, and 1 each by the chief executive mission, with the chief operatmg officer of the carrier affected, and officer of each of the four organizations of employees hereinbefore with the chief executive officers of the organizations concerned. named, and to be compensated by such organization. " SEc. 301. Within 30 days from the passage of this act there shall " The aforesaid railway boards of adjustment shall meet in the be created and established three comnnssions, which shall be known city of Washington within 10 days after the selection of their mem and designated as commission on labor disputes No. 1, commission on bers and each elect a chairman and vice chairman, who shall be mem labor disputes No. 2, and commission on labor disputes No. 3, in the bers of the board, and each chairman or vice chairman shall preside following manner : a.t all meetings of their respective boards and shall be required to "Commission on labor disputes No. 1 shall consist of eight member~, vote upon the adoption of all decisions of the board of which they are four of whom shall be selected by the carriers subject to the provisions members. of this act and four who .shall be the chief executive officers of th~ " The boards shall meet regularly at stated times each month and organizations of employees, or some person designated by them, here continue in session until all matters before them are considered. inbefore mentioned in connection with the creation of railway board "Unless otherwise mutually agreed, all meetings of the boards shall of adjustment No. 1. be held in the city of Washington: Provided, That each board shall "Commission on labor disputes No. 2 shall consist of 12 memberfl . have authority to empower two or more of its members to conduct G of whom shall be selected by the carriers subject to the provisions of hearings and pass upon controversies, when properly submitted, at any this act and 6 who shall be the chief executive officers of the organiza place designated by the board : Provi4ed turthet·, That such sub tions of employees, or some person designated by them, hereinbefore division of the board will not be authorized to make final decision. mentioned in connection with the creation of railway board of adjust All decisions shall be made and approved by the entire board, as herein ment No.2. before provided. "Commission on labor disputes No. 3 shall consi ·t of eight members, " Should a vacancy occur in any board, for any cause, such vacancy four of whom shall be selected by the carriers subject to the provisions shall be immediately filled by the same appointive authority which of this act and four who shall bP the chief executive officer of the made the original selection. organizations of emJ?loyees, or some person designated by them, here ".All authority invested in the committee commonly known as the inbefore mentioned m connection with the creation of rail~ay board • commission of eight' to adjust disputes arising out of the application of adjustment No. 3. of the so-called eight-hour law is hereby transferred to railway board "It shall be unl&wful for any member of a railway board of adju t of adjustment No. 1, in the same manner as has heretofore been done rnent or any member of a commission on labor disputes to be a membPr by the commission of eight. All decisions of a general character hereto at the same time of any other board or commission herein pro>itled fore made by the so-called commission of eight or by the United States for, nor shall he act as a member of any commission on labor disputes Railroad .Administration, affecting the questions of wages, hours of in any case in which he took part during its prP. sentation and con ser>icl:', or conditions of employment, are hereby confirmed and shall sideration before any t11ilway board of adjustment herein provided for. apply to all carriers subject to this act, unless exempted in such eight "Any controversy growing out of questions of wages, interpre hour law. Decisions which have been rendered by the so-called com tation or application of the provisions of wage schedules or agreements, mission of eight or the United States Railroad Administration, and which discipline or personal grievances of the employees, arising on any car apply to individual carriers subject to the provisions of ths act, shall rier line subject to this act on which no agreement has been r ached remain in effect until superseded by mutual agreement between the carrier by railway board of adjustment No. 1, or railway bounl of adjm;tm('nt and the employees, or by the decision of railway board of adjustment No. 21 or railway board of adjustment No. 3 may be refe rrecl to the No. 1, or the commission on labor disputes, made in accordance with comnnssion on labor disputes No. 1, or commission on labor eli pntes the pro>isions of this act. No. 2, or commission on labor disputes No. 3, r eRpectin ly, for final "All decisions of a general character heretofore m'ade by the United action. States Railroad Administration affecting the questions of wages, hours "The commissions on labor disputes shall meet in the city of Wash of service. or conditions of employment a.ro hereby confirmed and shall ington within 10 days after the selection of their members and elect a apply to all carrier lines subject to this act. Decisions which have been chairman and vice chairman, who shall be members of the commission. rendered by the United States Railroad .Administration, and which apply The chairman or vice chairman will preside at all meetings of the com to the individual carriers subject to the provisions of this act. shall re· mission and both sh:ill be required to vote llpon the adoption of all main in effect until superseded by mutual agreement between the carrier decisions of the commission. ancl the employees or by decision o! railway board of adjustment No. 2, "The commissions shall meet at such time as is deemed neces ary or railway board of adjustment No. 3, or the proper Commission on and continue 1n session until matters referred to them are disposed of. Labor Disputes made in accordance with the provisions of this act. "Unless otherwise mutually agreed, all meetings of the commi sions " The respecti>e railway boards of adjustment shall render decisions shall be held in the city of Washington: Pro"~;icled, That the commissions on all matters in dLpute and as provided herein and when properly sub shall have authority to conduct hearings and pass upon contro>ersie · mited to the boards. when properly submitted, at any place designated by the commissions. " Questions of wages, hours of service, and conditions of employment, " Should a vacancy occur in either of the commissions from any co.u ·e including controyer~;~ies arising from interpretation of wage agreements, such vacancy shall immedlatell be filled by the same appointive au- shall be decided by the railway boards of adjustment when properly pre sented to them. th~~t~o:~~i~;~~ \~~o~r~i.~tt:~:~~~~nrender decisions on all matters " Wages, hours of service, and conditions of employment, when fixed in dispute as provided herein when properly submitted to such com by the boards or commissions on labor disputes, shall be incorporated in mission. existing agreements on the several carrier lines subject to the provisions "No matter will be considered by a commi ·sion on labor disputes of this act, and should differences arise between the officials and the em· unless officially referred to it in the manner berein pre cribed. 1919. OONGRESSION AL RECORD-HOUSE. 8485 - "In hearings before a commission, in matters properly submitted for The Clerk proceeded with the reading of the Anderson amend It· consideration, the carrier shall be represented by such person or persons as may be designated by the chief operating officer and the ment. employet>s shall be represented by such person or persons as may be Mr. ESCH (interrupting the reading). 1\lr. Chairman, I ask designated by the chief executive -officer of the organization concerned. unanimous consent that the remainder of the Anderson amend " The clerical and office expenses of the commissions will be paid by the United States Government. The carrier directly concerned and ment, now being read, may be considered as read and printed the organization involved in the hearing will, respectively, assume any in the RECORD. expenses incurred in presenting a case. The CHAIRl\IAN. The gentleman from 'Visconsin asks unan " Each commission on labor disputes shall keep a complete and correct record of all matters submitted for its consideration and imous consent that the remainder of the amendment that had all decisions made by the commission. been offered and is now being read may be considered as having "A commission will have authority to hear and decide only such been read, and may be printed in the RECORD as having been cases as are properly referred to it by the railway boards of adjust ment. All decisions of a commission on labor disputes shall be ap reacl. Is there objection? [After a pause.] The Chair hears proved by a majority vote of all members of the commission. none, and the amendment will be printed in the RECORD as ha\ "A. report of all cases decided, including the decisions, shall be filed ing been offered in full. with the Interstate Commerce Commission, with the chief officer of the carrier affected, and with the chief executive officers of the organi l\Ir. FRENCH. l\ir. Chairman, in view of the great import zations concerned. ance of this labor title and the sections under it, I ask unani "Additional boards of adjustment and commissions on labor dis mous consent that any gentleman who desires to offer an amend putes may be organized from time to time to cover other employees or classes of employees under the provisions of this act. ment either to the title or to the sections under the title be " For the purpose of making this section effective the members of permitted to ha\e his amendment presented now and, without railway boards of adjustment or commissions on labor disputes. or it being read, ha\e it printed in the RECORD, so that they will either of them, shall have the power to administer oaths and affirm ations, sign subprenas, require the attendance and testimony of wit all be before us in the morning. nesses, and the production of books, papers, contracts, agreements, The CH.•\.IRl\IAN. The gentleman from Idaho asks unani and documents material to a just determination of any matter under mous consent that Members having amendments to Title III investigation, and may invoke the aid of the United States courts to compel witnesses to attend and testify and to produce such books, may present them at the Clerk's desk now and have them papers, contracts, agreements, and documents, to the same extent printed in the RECORD. Is there objection? and under the same conditions and penalties as are provided for in l\Ir. GARLAND. l\Ir. Chairman, I object. the act to regulate commerce. "'l'estimony before railway boards of adjustment or commiSSions Mr. JUUL. 1\Ir. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that the on labor disputes shall be given under oath or affirmation when it is two substitutes, the one offered by the gentleman from Minne deemed necessary by such boards or commissions. Any railway board sota [Mr. ANDERSON] and the one offered by the gentleman of adjustment or commission on labor disputes may employ such from Washington [l\fr. WEBSTER] may be prlnted in bill form a ·sistants as may be necessary in carrying on this work. Any rail way board of adjustment or commission on labor disputes shall, when so that the Members may ha\e them in the morning. enr practicable, be supplied with suitable quarters in any Federal The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Illinois asks unani building located at its place of meeting or at any place to which it may adjourn for its deliberations. mous consent that the amendment of the gentleman from Wash "The United States Railroad Administration and the Board of ington [l\Ir. WEBSTER] and the amendment of the gentleman Mediation and C®ciliation are hereby authorized to turn over to from Minnesota [1\Ir. ANDERSON] may be printed in bill form railway boards of adjustment or to the commissions on labor disputes for the m;e of 1\Iembers. Is there objection? upon request any properties or documents heretofore filed with them and bearing upon mediation, arbitration, or other adjustments or 1\Ir. BLA.i'ITON. ~Ir. Chairman, I object. proceedings held under the provisions of the act approved June 1, Mr. CAJ\r:KON. Oh, I hope the gentleman will not do that. 1898, or the act approved July 15, 1913, providing for mediation and Some of us ha\e not very good eyesight. arbitration, or decisions rendered by the United States Railroad Ad ministration. l.Ur. BLANTON. I withdraw the objection. . "The sum of $50,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, is The CHAIR~IAN. The gentleman from Texas withdraws the hereby authorized to be immediately available and continue available objection. Is there objection? [After a pause.] The Chair until the close of the fiscal year ending June 30, 1920, for the necessary and proper expenses inl!urred in connection with carrying on the work hears none; and it is so ordered. of railway boards of adjustment and commissions on labor disputes, in 1\lr. ESCH. Mr. Chairman, I was wondering whether w·e cluding rent in the District of Columbia, furniture, office fixtures and could not come to an agreement to-night as to the amount of supplies, assistants, clerical work, and other necessary expenses to be approved by the chairmen of the railway boards of adjustment and com debate we will require on these propositions that are now pre missions on labor disputes and audited by the proper accounting officer sented or upon any amendment which might be presented. I of the •.rreasury. suggest that the time be limited to an hour and a half. "Ariy person, corporation, organization, or association violating any of the provisions of sections 300 and 301 of this act shall be deemed 1\Ir. BARKLEY. To be divided in what manner? guilty of a misdemeanor and for each offense on conviction shall pay l\Ir. ESCH. We could allow one-third of the time for each to the United States a penalty of $500." proposition, the time to be at the disposal of 1\Ir. ANDERso 1\!r. BLACK (interrupting the reading of the Anderson amend on the proposition he has presented, Judge WEBSTER for the ment). Jl.lr. Chairman, I make the point of order that the proposition he has presented, and some member of the Commit amendment is not an amendment, but is in the nature of a sub tee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce on the proposition stitute for the substitute, and is, therefore, out of order. contained in the bill. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair overrules the point of order. 1\Ir. BARKLEY. 1\lr. Chairman, it strikes me that is a little It is an amendment to the substitute by striking out all after unfair to the committee because, on the part of the Committee certain portions of the substitute and inserting something else. on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, we have to defend our l\1r. ·wEBSTER. I want to present the other side of this ques proposition against both of those, and we will have to do it tion by suggesting that the substitute offered by the gentleman in one-third of the time granted to other l\lembers for offering from l\1innesota [1\Ir. A -DERSON] proposes to strike out my en their substitutes. I think the committee ought to be in charge tire substitute. The portion designated by him is the first of half the time. section in it, and he moves to strike out all after the numbering 1\fr. ESCH. I think this is true, in view of the fact that the of the first section of the substitute. committee is the proponent of the proposition and all others The CHAIRMAN. The Chair so understands, and O\errules are opponents of the same proposition, and the time should be the point of order. The Clerk will read. equally divided. I think tl1e suggestion of the gentleman is The Clerk proceeded with the reading of the Anderson amend well taken. ment. 1\Ir. NOLAN. Mr. Chairman, reserving the right to ob Mr. JUUL (interrupting the reading). :'fr. Chairman, I de ject-- sire to submit a parliamentary inquiry. ·The CHAIR~IAL'I. The gentleman has not preferred a unani The CHAIRMAN. It is somewhat unusual to interrupt the mous-consent request ;ret. reading of an amendment for that purpose. 1\Ir. NOLAN. Will the gentleman yield to me? Does not the Mr. JUUL. I :want to ask a question. gentleman think that this is rather unfair to the amendment · · The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will hear the gentleman. offered by the gentleman from 1innesota, that you give him l\Ir. JUUL. I want to ask if it will be in order either to re only the same amount of time as to the proponents of the quest or to move that this substitute now being read and the amendment offered by the gentleman from 'Vashington, irfns substitute to which this is a substitute be both printed in the much as they consumed some time on that amendment:_20 RECORD to-night and placed in the hands of the Members to-mor minutes or so? This is a Yery important amendment, and I ro" morrung. think a little over 30 minutes ought to be allowed for its dis 1\Ir. SAUNDERS of Virginia. The gentleman can ask unani cussion. mous consent to ha\e that done. l\lr. ESCH. This is in reference to general debate I am sug l\Ir. JUUL. I would dislike to be compelled to \ote on so gesting. 'We will all have the same opportunity. I do not intricate a matter without thoroughly understanding it. want to discriminate at all, but I think the commiltee should The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will recognize the gentleman be entitled to half the time, in view of the fact that we pro to make that request on the completion of the reading of the posed the legislation and . these other propositions are by way amendment. The Clerk wlll proceed. of amendment to the cpmmittee proposition. 8486 CONGR.ESSION AL R.ECORD-HOUSE. NovEl\IBER 13,; ~Ir. CA~"NO~.... Will the gentleman yield? Mr. BLANTON. Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the reque t. lli. ESCH. Yes. The CHAIR.l\IA.N. The polnt of orde1· is withdrawn. The :;\Ir. CANNON. This is for general debate and does not "in gentleman from Wisconsin [Mr. EscH] moves that all debate terfere with the consideration of the bill and amendments on the pending amendments to section 300 of the bill be limited thereto under the fi-ve-minute rule? to three hours. :Mr. ESCH. ~o; because there will be amenuments, no doubt, Mr. DAVEY. Mr. Chairman, a parliamentary inquiry. Is it offered to whate\er proposition may be adopted. understood that the debate is confined to the two substitutes Mr. BARKLEY. I was going to ask the gentleman whetller ancl does not affect the original bill as presented to the Hou e? the reque. t will be that debate be limited to the two ubstitutes The CHAIRMAN. The motion of the gentleman from \Vis now before the committee-- cousin provided for that, namely, that all debate on the pending :llr. ESCH. On the bill?- amendments to section 300 and on section 300 shall be limited ~r. BARKLEY. Or to the entire title. to three hours. The motion is not debatable. Mr. ESCH. It rrould necessarily invol\e a discussion of the 1\lr. SANDERS of Louisiana. 1\lr. Chairman, a parliamentary title as presented in the bill becau e they would ha\e to show inquiry. the difference betrreen their bills and the bill as reported by the The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state it. committee. Mr. SANDERS of Louisiana. Can a motion to close debate Mr. BARKLEY. ·But this agreement, if entered into, does be made until at least fiT"e minutes of debate lln been had on not preclude other Members of the Hou e, if these propositions the amendments? ar~ '~oted down, from then having time to debate on the amend The CHAIRMAN. There have been 10 minutes of debate on ments offered to >arious sections of our propo al? the . ection. :Mr. ESCH. I do not think so. Mr. BARKLEY. So the gentleman's request would be limited l\Ir. SANDERS of Louisiana. Has there been any debate on to the substitutes that are now or may hereafter be offered as the amendments offered? a whole in place of our proposal? The CHAIRMAN. u· is not necessary that debate shall be ~r. ESCH. Yes. had on amendments offe1·ed. l\lr. GARLAl\'D. Does not tlle gentleman think under the Mr. SANDERS of Louisiana. I make the point of no quorum, present circumstances and with pre ent conditions, in. view of if it is going to be attempted by this little gathering to fix the fact that the amendment which has ju t been read was not this debate. considered in general debate before and both of the other The CHAIR1\IAJ.~. The gent1eman f1·om Louisiana makes the ~ amendments were considered in general debate, and that none point of no quorum. The Chair will again count. [After count· of us have had an opportunity prior to this particular amend ing.] Ninety-two Members are present; not a quorum. . ment to discuss it in general, that there ought to be a much - 1\Ir. KEARNS. 1\Ir. Chairman, I ask for tellers• ·longer time. There are a lot of us who got no opportunity at The CHAIRMAN. The Gerk ·win call the roll. all to speak in general debate on any part of the bill. There 1\lr. KEAltNS. 1\Ir. Chairman, a padiamentary inquiry. : fore I think we ought to have an opportunity on this particular The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will can the roll. section in which we are interested. The Cle1·k called the roll, and the following Members failed Mr. ESCH. Would the gentleman be satisfied if I extended to answer to their names: the time to two hours? That will give ample time. Ackerman Elston Kreider Ratlcllffe Mr. JUUL. Will the gentleman yield? Alexander Evan , Mont. LaGuardia Rainey, Ala. Mr. ESCH. I will. Andrews, Md. Evan , Nebr. Lampert Rainey, 11. T. Langley Rainey, J. W. Mr. JUUL. ~r. Chairman, many of us who are not members Anthony Fairfield Ashbrook Ferris Larsen Ramsey of the committee have thousands of railway employees in our A swell Fisher Lazar-o Randair, Calif. districts and those employees expect to hear from their Mem Ayres Flood Lee, Ga. Randall, Wis. bers here as to what >iews we have upon this >ery interesting Bacharach Fordney Lehlbach Rayburn Baer Foster Linthicum Reavis proposition to them. . RanJthcad Frear Lonergan Reber l\!r. BLANTON. Mr. Chairman, I ask for the regu1ar order. Begg Freemnn Longworth Rhodes The CHAIRl\L<\1'1": The regular order is the amendment of Bell Fuller, lll. Luce Riddick Benham Fuller, Mass. Lufkin Riordan the gentleman from Minnesota [l\Ir. ANDERSON]. Benson Gallivan McAndrews Rodenberg 1\Ir. JUUL. 3Ir. Chairman, the gentleman yielded . the floor Black Gandy McArthur Rogers Blackmon Gard McCulloch Rowan to me. Bland, Jnd. Garner McKenzie Rocker The CHAIR~IAN. This is all by unanimous consent. Bland, Mo. Garrett McKeown Sabath Mr. ESCH. Mr. Chairman, I move that to-morrow morning, Boies Glynn McLaughlin, Mich.San11ers, In White, Me. Wilson, La. Winslow Young, N.Dak. By Mr. LAGUARDIA: A bill (H. R. 10532) to amend an act Williams Wilson, Pa. Woodyard Young, 'l'ex. Wilson, Ill. Wingo Wright . entitled "An act to provide for the lading or unlading of vessel~ at night, the preliminary entry of vessels, and for other pur Thereupon the committee rose ; and llr. CooPER as Speaker pose~,'~ approved February 13, 1911; to the Committee on Ways pro tempore having assumed the chair, Mr. W .ALSH, Chairman and Means. of the Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union, By 1\lr. EDMONDS: A bill (H. R. 10533) providing for the reported that that committee having hacl under cons!deratlon classification of vessels owned by the United States; to the Com t11e bill (H. R. 10453) to provide for the termination of Federal mittee on the Merchant Marine and Fisheries. control of railroads and systems of transportation; to provide By l\1r. GREE~ of Massachusetts: A bill (H. n. 10534) to for the settlement of disputes between carriers and their ero permit transportation of limited number of passengers on cargo ployees ; to further nmend an act entitled "An act to regulate vessels; to the Committee on the Merchant Marine and commerce," approved February 4, 1887, as amended, and for Fisheries. other purposes, and finding itself without a quorum, he had By Mr. SWOPE: A bill (H. U. 10535) for the purchase of a cau ed the roll to be called; whereupon 168 l\Iembers-a quo post-office site and the erection of a public building thereon at rum-had answered to their names, and he submitted a list of Stanford, Ky. ; to the Committee on. Public Buildings and absentees for printing in the REcoRD and the Journal. Grounds. The SPEAKER pro tempore. A quorum is present, and the By :Mr. lUASON: A bill (H. R. 10536) to amend an act giving committee will resume its sitting. congressional medals for congpicuous bravery; to the Committee. Thereupon the committee resumed its session. on the Judiciary. 0 Mr. ESCH. Mr. Chairman, I move that the debate on section By Mr. LAGUARDIA: A bill (H. R. 10537) making appropria 300 and the substitutes that have been offered be limited to tions for the purchase of airplane and· aviation equipment for three hours. the Aviation Service of the United States Army; to the Com : The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Wisconsin moves that mittee on Appropriations. the debate upon the substitutes which have been offered and upon By Mr. JOHNSON of Washington: A biD (H. R. 10538) to section 300, in Title III, be limited to three hours. The ques transfer the depmrtation provisions of sections 19 and 20 of the tion is on agreeing to that motion. act of Congress of February 5, 1917, from the Department of ~ The motion was agreed to. Labor to the Department of Justice ; to the Committee on Immi i Mr. ESCH. Mr. Chairman~ I move that tbe committee do now gration and Naturalization. rise. Also, a bill (H. R. 10539) to establish in the Department of The motion was agreed to. Justice a bureau of land-boundary -patrol, and for other pur I Accordingly the committee rose; and :Mr. FEss as Speaker pro poses; to the Committee on the Judiciary. ;tempore ha>ing assumed tbe chair, Mr. WALSH, Chairman of the By M.r. CAMPBELL of Kansas:- Resolution (H. Res. 388) ·committee of the Whole House on the state of tbe .Union, re for the consideration of Honse bill 9821; to the Committee o.f ,llorted that that committee having had under consideration the the Whole House. ibill (H. R. 10453) to provide for the termination of Federal control of railroads and systems of transportation ; to provide PRIVATE BILLS AND RESOLUTIONS. ~or the settlement of disputes between carriers and their em Under clause 1 of Rule :X:.....~II, private bills and resolutions •ployees; to further amend an act entitled "An net to regulate were introduced and severally referred as follows: ·commerce," approved February 4, 1887, as amended, and for By Mr. ALEXANDER: A bill (H. R. 10540) granting an in· other purposes, had come to no resolution thereon. crease of pension to Kate R. Hawk; to the Committee on ADJOUB -MENT. Invalid Pensions. Also, a bill (H. R. 10541) granting a pension to Anna E. · 1\lr. ESCH. l\fr. Speaker, I mo>e that the House do now Juctd; to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. .n PETITIONS, ETC. Also, petition of sundry citizens of Newburyport Mass. Under clau e 1 of Rule XXII, petitions and papers were laid favoring protection for the people of AI·menia · to the Com~ on the Clerk's de ·k and· referred as follows; mittee on Foreign Affairs. ' By the SPEAh..""ER · (by request) : Unsigned resolution No. 13, By Mr. MOORE of Pennsylvania: Petition of Philadelphia protesting against the injtmction issued against leaders of the Board of Trade, urging passage of House bill 5516 · to the Com- l:Jnited Mine \Vorkers of America; to the Committee on the mittee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce. ' Judiciary. By l\fr. O'CONNELL: Petition of New York State Horticul By 1\lr. BABKA: Petition of Memorial Post No. 141, Ohio tural Society, favoring bill to amend Sherman antitrust law· to Grand Army of the Republic, urging passage of Fuller pension the Committee on Agriculture. ' bill ; to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. By 1\Ir. ROWAN: Petition of New York State Horticultural By r;lr. CROWTHER: Petition of the Kiwanis Club of Society, favoring bill to amend Sherman antitrust law· to the Scl1enectady, N. Y., urging the immediate deportation of all Committee on Agriculture. ' aliens convicted of espionage, opposing teaching of foreign lan Also, petition of Motor Truck Association of America favor guage in schools in preference to English, and opposing the ing House bill 9412; to the Committee on Military Affai~s. printing of newspapers in the United States in foreign lan Also, petition of Railway Business Association, of New York guages; to the Committee on Foreign Affairs. setting forth facts pertaining to the present railroad legislation : Also, petition of the St. Johnsville Dairymen's League (Inc.), to the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce. ' of St. Johnsville, N. Y., urging the enactment of the so-called Also, petition of League for World Federation, Washington Capper-Hersman bill; to the Committee on the Judiciary. D. C., presenting reservations to the league of nations· to th~ Also petition of Common Council of Gloversville, N. Y., Committee on Foreign Affairs. ' urging the reenactment of the so·called daylight-saving law; to By l\fr. SINCLAIR: Petition of Central Labor Union of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce. Williston, N. Dak., emphatically protesting against the passage Ey 1\lr. ESCH: Petition of citizens of Lithuanian origin re of the Escll bill returning railroads to private operation siding in the city of Kenosha, Wis., ut·ging moral support to the and particularly the clause relating to liability of labo~ Lithuanian people in the present crisis; to the Committee on organization ; to the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Foreign Affairs. · Commerce. By l\fr. KENNEDY of Iowa: Petition of the Denison Post, Also, petition of the First Farmers' Bank, of 1\linot,. N. Dak., Ko. 8, Iowa Branch of the American Legion, indorsing the terms representing 2,600 stockholders, declaring their unqualified of the Morgan bill; to the Committee on the Public Lands. opposition to the Esch railroad bill, and especially to the labor Also, petition of Crocker Post, No. 12, Department of Iowa. organization liability clause of said bill; to the Committee on Grand Army of the Republic, unanimously adoptingtheprovisions Interstate and Foreign Commerce. of the Fuller pension bill ; to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. Also, petition of employees of the Northern Pacific Railroad, By .Mr. LUFKIN: Petition of Post 108, Grand Army of the at New Salem, N. Dak., asking support of a two years' exten Republic, of Georgetown, Mass., urging early passage of Fuller sion of the period of Government operation of railroads; to the pension bill ; to the C9mm~ttee on In1~lid Pensi9ns. ,OQmmit~ee on Interstate and F9reign Commerce. \