Max Geldman and Shevi Geldman Narrators

Steven Trimble Interviewer

1977? Los Angeles, California?

[Note: There frequently is a loud machine running in the background in the first part of the interview that makes it hard to hear the speaker so an accurate transcription here is difficult to assure.]

Minnesota ST: ...and stuff like that [unclear]... in MG: [Unclear] if my memory slips, you can kind of interject.

SG: Okay. Society MG: Well I was born in Poland, there was a kind of a humorProject about it, [unclear] middle class put on, most people of Jewish origin that were born in Poland and who are either first generation always said that you were born in WarsawRadicalism or near Warsaw, that's kind of a status [unclear], cause if you're born in some godforsaken little town there's no status. So anyways, my, I was born on May 8th, 1905, which means this coming May 8thHistory I will be 72. We arrived here in 1914 in New York City. On my father's side of the family there were let'sHistorical see, one, there were four males, and I don't know how many females. ThreeCentury of the males migrated to the United States, America as they called it, the other one was an [unclear] whatOral happened to him I do not know. All I know right now is that the, my father's younger sister lived through the Nazi Holocaust, she was, she went from a small town near Lovling, Poland to Paris, she was either, how she did it I do not know except that [unclear] Christian people considered it their moral obligation to hide her out and she was hid out during the period of the Nazi occupationMinnesota of Paris. SG: [Unclear]Twentieth she was hidden out on farm, she was out in the French countryside, she and her children.

MG: Yeah, so we're planning a trip to, of which Paris will be included and we plan to look them up, to, I think she's still, believe she's still alive, and her children, they live somewhere in the environs of Paris. My education, interrupt if you want further information, you can compare it also with the biography that's in the Farrell book.

ST: Do you remember much about the trip coming over.

MG: Except we were immigrants, we travelled steerage. In those days under the Czar, nobody ever got papers to leave as far as I know. Everybody stole across the border, I vaguely remember that we were in a [unclear], a wagon and hid out at night and I imagine that we, the first point that we got to was somewhere in Germany, it was like night and day. Of course the stealing across the border was a sort of how shall I call it, it was fixed, you paid so much, you bought a ticket for a steamship line and they had all connected so that the Czar, everybody was paid off, and I'm sure it was well known, otherwise how could the flood of immigrants every got down across the border in such numbers.

SG: Wasn't there [unclear] organization?

MG: Well, yes there was...

SG: There was, I don't remember the name of it but there was an organization and it [unclear] for many years. My mother came in 1904 [unclear]

MG: Well, it could have been 1913, it was long time...

SG: But I'm saying [unclear] they managed to get, they were [unclear]Minnesota organized and they papers for them after they got [unclear] in

MG: The only organization that I know of was the, I think it was called the [unclear] Organization Society or something like that. Anyways, we took ship in Antwerp, Belgium, there were various points depending on whom the agent had connections and all I can rememberSociety of the trip was that everybody was sick. It wasn't the most pleasant place to Projectbe, we were herded [unclear] hull of the ship and we didn't eat too much nor did we want to too much. There was, my father was already here and the usual custom was that you broughtRadicalism over what we call lanslike, that is people from your town so forth they usually found a job for you in the trade in which they were following and my father became a sewing machine operator, even though in the old country my grandfather was, we call a lord's duke [lordsdu?], one of the last Historyof the, inHistorical the feudal period. Now the activity of the lord's duke [lordsdue?] was he took care of his affairs, he had lumber, lumbering, forest, crops and so forth, but it was coming Centuryto an end and because it was coming to an end, his sons had emigrated. He [unclear] became a sewing machineOral operator and first in that time in ladies waists and then in dresses. He wasn't accustomed to machinery so like many immigrants who were thrown into the labor force so to speak, he ran a needle through his thumb and the thumb had to be amputated. The, so getting back as far as the days on the ship are concerned, as I said all memories is that we were sick until we landed on Ellis Island,Minnesota it was called Castle Garden, I may have things mixed up a little bit and weTwentieth were three boys that were there with my mother and my next in years my brother Nat who died about a year ago, we were about three years apart and hurt his foot and to this day I remember that we were very fearful [unclear] that we were going to be medically examined and [unclear] reject [unclear] have a bandage on his foot and [unclear], every time he gave a shriek of pain my mother would go into hysterics, [unclear] certainly was, we were, our being, not being able to land. Anyway we finally got there, our father took an apartment, first apartment [unclear] and it was on Houstus Street. The, they didn't have inside toilets, I don't remember, many of the apartments didn't. [Unclear] my wife and I were in New York, that was while there was a six week [unclear]...

SG: '56 [unclear] MG: '56 we were still on the lower east side those terrible apartments with [unclear] in the hall, were used by all the people.

SG: I'm sure [unclear]

MG: [Unclear] lived there and now they're being occupied now by Blacks and Puerto Ricans. We lived in the lower eastside first on Houstus Street and then on East 8th Street, near Tompkins Square [unclear]

ST: Yeah, I'd like to get as much as you remember because it's good background.

MG: 8th Street was a sort of border street, New York City is a melting pot, all [unclear] national origins more or less settled in the same area and the lower eastside was [unclear] for Jews, Polish people were there. 9th Street, 10th Street was already off limits to Jewish kids because 9th and 10th Street and then from there on in were Poles and Italians and there would be raids, what the reasons, or what purpose, [unclear] because one is Jewish and the otherMinnesota is Polish and the other is Italian so everybody knows they have to [unclear] because that's the way it is. The, I went, my education, I finished 8th grade in what we would call an elementaryin school. It is the custom, it was the custom in Jewish families for the oldest to go to work so that the younger ones could have the benefit of education. So we moved from 8th Street to Brooklyn, an area called Brownsville, all I know [dog yelps]... Quiet. We will note that this is not part of the reminiscences. So I graduated from public school 174 in Brownsville, Already beginning to read, I triedSociety going to night school, high school, but [unclear] really involved in reading, [unclear]Project [dog yelps, machine in background and sounds like a plane overhead]...the English, French, German [unclear], Russian [unclear] the Yiddish, so high school was like [unclear],Radicalism I wasn't too interested [unclear] it was much more exciting to be around circles, ideas were being [unclear]. My cousin, the older cousin was a member of the Communist Party underground and we would get hold of some of the literature and so [unclear] my younger cousin, [unclear] andHistory he, throughHistorical my older cousin [unclear] radical circles in that period, [unclear] right away [unclear] at least prospered. Century SG: [Unclear] Oral

MG: [Unclear], and I remember meeting him, it was somewhere out in the country and...what were we talking about I don't remember, but [unclear] that in those years, we're talking about the '20s, there was a very strong current amongstMinnesota Jewish intellectuals, people who were influenced by ideas [unclear]Twentieth the radical ideas, revolutionary ideas, [unclear] started reading [unclear] or Engels, Lenin was unknown, no I wouldn't say that, my first real contact with the Communist movement...

[tape clicks. After this machine noise gone]

ST: Okay.

MG: Okay.

ST: Yeah.

MG: My first contact with the Communist movement so to speak was the Lenin Memorial meeting in 1924. I'd been to I think probably previous [unclear], this was at Madison Square Garden, it was I guess every radical from miles around came and all the luminaries of the Communist Party spoke in various languages. You must keep in mind that the Communist movement in 1924 was only, was still only semi-legal, a struggle was going down within the Communist Party for legality. That you can read that history in Cannes, the first 10 years of the American Communist movement. And I was very much impressed, the Garden, Madison Square Garden at that time was on 23rd Street near Madison Avenue, it's no longer there. And the, the parade of speakers and the occasion had a big influence on. The next event which influenced me in the direction of the Communist movement was the Pasade[?] textile strike of 1926 led by Albert Weisborg, that also was a real great mass outpouring of people. Most of the workers there were Polish, it was really the first mass struggle that I saw. We used to go over there from New York, from Manhattan to participate in this strike. Alongside of the Pasade strike was the defense struggle to save the lives of Sacco and Vanzetti and that also was in '26, '27, you can check the dates, that's when it seems to me it was. And it could be that they must be, I think they were executed in twenty..., either in '27 or '26.

ST: Do you remember any specific on the Pasade strike? Things that you... Minnesota MG: Well, they, [unclear] again there was the mass picketing, the attempts to break up the mass picketing by the police, there was a struggle, Weisborg was, a lotin of the strikers could not even understand English and Weisborg did not speak Polish but the concept of struggle came through very strongly and wherever he went he was greeted with cheers, with love, they saw in him the personification, one who was giving them the help and the leadership to win some elementary rights, because it was completely unorganized. Pasade is no longer aSociety textile stronghold, neither is Patterson for that matter where also struggles took place. Project The entire textile, most of the [unclear] moved down South in the Carolinas and deeper there and the Communist Party engaged in organizing the textile workers. That was beforeRadicalism the rise of the CIO. It was an experience, an experience to march shoulder to shoulder, no one asked what religion you were, what race you were, you were just marching in solidarity andHistory the mass picketing consisted of men, women, children and other people who came in support likeHistorical myself and my cousin. It, it was an experience. The struggles around SaccoCentury and Vanzetti, [unclear] the defense to save their lives, there was organized an international labor defense,Oral Jim Canon of the Labor Defense and there was a [unclear], again here there was a tremendous mass struggle. It united all language groups. We would, we'd be marching or demonstrating down 2nd Avenue, down 1st Avenue in Manhattan, New York was one of the cities that had cops on horses and they'd come to break up the march. All of a sudden you looked up and thereMinnesota the horses came at you, so the only thing you could do is run, so we ran...Twentieth SG: There were some fights that took place, you remember the anti-war movement.

MG: And we'd run down one street and we'd fall on the other, we'd go to the [unclear] all related, march past the Italian Embassy and the Italians would chant, Abazzo Mussolini, and the songs were sung in every language, with a united front and [unclear] talking, two incidents come to my mind, one was a tremendous mass meeting in Union Square, it was raining but that didn't stop [unclear]. And all you look back and what you saw was [unclear], nobody left, it was one of the last of the big demonstrations because by that time they were, had been found guilty, was the Judge was named Hare...

ST: I'm not sure. MG: You can look it up.

ST: Yeah, that's [unclear] to be looked up.

MG: I think his name was, in any case the next incident in my memory was the night when they were executed and the Communist Party headquarters was on Union Square where today there is the cut-rate clothing department, Kline's, the CP occupied almost that entire area and it was nighttime, it was jammed they used to have these you know running electric signs, before TV, I suppose today in TV they'd show you Sacco being burnt or Vanzetti being burnt, I guess we might consider it a blessing that we didn't see it. Anyways when the news flashed Sacco went first and they went to their deaths bravely, I cannot remember, each one had a slogan, you can look that up, but at the appearance and the news of each one there was a groan from the great mass as if the end of the world had come. The same thing happened after Vanzetti and that night people wept and the cops were there in force. If two or three stood on 14th Street they would break it up, they wouldn't permit anybody. Well that was a great, that was the last of the struggles that I participated in in the Communist Party. It was over these events I joined the Young CommunistMinnesota League. I didn't stay there too long, the language federations were still in existence, the factional struggles within the CP and I won't go into that cause that's a different [unclear], but I couldn'tin understand the factions and I didn't like, the mass struggles you can see, but the politics of the representative of the [unclear] caucus, the Foster caucus, the Cannon caucus, we didn't see too much of the Cannon caucus in New York, Cannon's basic strength was in the middle west and north, north central like Minnesota and so forth... Society Project END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE Radicalism TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO MG: There was another incident, I don't knowHistory whetherHistorical it [unclear] or not... SG: Oh, sure. Century Oral MG: In 1928 in the midst of the factional struggle the leadership in the Communist Party was the Lovestone group, they had arbitrarily been given the leadership by the Communist International, you can read all that in [unclear] The First Ten Years, or even in [unclear] [airplane noise or something here]...so yet the AmericanMinnesota section had to show that they were doing anti-imperialist work, so Twentietha number of us from the Young Communist League were volunteered to do anti-imperialist work in what was called at that time the Citizens Military Training Camps, something like that, and a most foolhardy project, because nothing could be gained from it and what we were supposed to do was to influence the young people that were there, that were being trained to do the dirty work for imperialists and the way we were going to do it was talking individually, it was dangerous, you had to pick your people, and then on a certain day we were supposed to put posters up in the company streets, in the latrines and so forth. I think back on it and I'm all shivers just to..., okay so you risk [unclear] work you were doing if an objective can be gained, that was a great lesson for me because the whole thing as far as I'm concerned, looking back on it, was a fiasco, which only endangered the people who were sent in, we never even went through with post-inductive, the manifestos, because a fundamental struggle broke out in the camps, very, and that is between the town boys and the camp boys as about girls, and when you get a struggle like that, everything goes right away. And the MPs were parading through the streets, we had planned that they were going to go through the streets and quickly put them up under trees, and put the lights out in the latrines and so forth. But the best of plans run astray. I received [unclear]_, we were out drilling and mail was delivered and I got a carton of camels, but I noticed that [unclear] the top layer was camels and underneath were the leaflets that we were supposed [unclear]. You know how everybody, go on Max open up let's see what you got and I didn't want to open up no way. I guess I sweated many years away until I got back. The, I think that was a disillusioning process because it was such a futile undertaking, that plus the factional struggles.

ST: Well what was the, were these, I guess I never heard of these camps before, they were like sort of militia training or...

MG: Well, I don't, I think they were more orientation projects than a militia, cause they'd take the kids out of the ghetto and they'd send them up to an area like Lansberg, New York near the Adirondacks, and there for a whole month. They gave us the finest of foods, we were supposed to kick about the food, we never ate such food. And to give you an example,Minnesota at that time milk used to be graded, there was grade B, grade A and another grade. We got the best grade. And so not only that, but transportation was paid and we also got a little pocket inmoney because you got mileage, so I think most of the kids would be impressed...

ST: So you actually joined and became part of the... Society MG: Yeah, the military. Project ST: Oh, okay. For a while I thought maybeRadicalism someone was in the cities and you'd just go in and leave... MG: No, no, you applied, you applied and Historythen theyHistorical had, they used to do a lot of work at that time in Boy's Clubs... Century SG: And there was sponsorship ofOral the federal government?

MG: Federally sponsored. ST: Well now I see you know whyMinnesota even more it was dangerous because you were totally away from... Twentieth MG: We were away, this was a federally sponsored proposition, it's under the military and what can you do in that respect?

ST: Yeah.

MG: Even at best, supposing you had succeeded in posting up our leaflets, what effect would it have had? It, but it looked fine in a report to the Communist International, you know particularly for the Upton tendency, so this is 1928 and we knew about the struggle in Russia, and in particular the struggle against Trotsky. It's hard for somebody to join an organization who, you know, you got to go through an experience before you leave. I didn't leave until [unclear], I didn't become convinced until I left New York and I was in Chicago in 1929, during the beginning of the Great Depression.

ST: What kind of work were you doing during the '20s? To make your living?

MG: Well, in New York without any particular skill, and without any particular training, my first job was as an errand boy, to run errands. What do you do, you carry packages, and then for some kids, you go up the escalator, from errand boy, you go to the shipping room, this was an importer, dress trimmings, laces of one kind or another. I started and I worked for them. I think I worked until, ‘til about '26, 1926. And I was already shipping clerk and the next rung is salesman, and the whole thing didn't make sense to me, I didn't want to be, I didn't want to have any part, so I quit and told my boss I wanted to go to Europe. And I almost made it. I don't remember as to why, I had contact, my boss even helped me with a ship that was going to go to Hamburg, but I didn't make it, maybe cause of some family reason or [unclear], and then my real education began. [unclear] all the events I'm describing during that period and I'm unemployed. I'm unemployed not because there were no jobs, but because... Minnesota SG: It was too exciting to be at work. in MG: Too excited, too exciting to do the things that I was doing and we, my college was the New York 42nd Street Library and we would go there just like you go to college, check in at a certain time, read, read literature, sociology, anthropology, the only thing that we couldn't really make was math. In my education that's an understatement. And then after we gotSociety through we, if we didn't have any money then [unclear], didn't need too much. Project SG: Were you studying philosophy? Radicalism

MG: Huh? History SG: Were you studying philosophy? Historical Century MG: Yeah, at 42nd Street, we readOral the Marxist classics there. Then we'd, there was a group of us and we'd go out and we'd discuss what we'd read. So it was really quite an educational experience and then the participation plus the reading gave me an educational background [unclear] I still consider second to none. Even though I have no degrees to show for it. This is, we used to call self-education. Minnesota ST: What,Twentieth you mentioned too the language federations, now were you in one of those?

MG: No, I wasn't, I was close to one. When I joined the Young Communist League, they assigned me to the Williamsburg branch. Williamsburg is a section of Brooklyn and the Lithuanians, the Lithuanian was the strongest, it was a Lovestonite stronghold. It was Lithuanian hall, I don't know, have you studied labor history?

ST: Yeah, some.

MG: Is the name Anthony Binbur mean anything, do you...

ST: He [unclear] on the Molly McGuire's, or on something... MG: They're American labor history.

ST: Yeah.

MG: American labor history. He was a Lithuanian, and the narrowness of the federations and their the fact that how little they understand, on the one hand they were very idealistic people and there were a sacrifice, they didn't, they came to this country, which, particularly the urban people, that is from the urban centers, with a knowledge of the Marxist classics, but as Cannon pointed out, they didn't understand the problems of the American works, they considered the American workers very backward. You can imagine the sight of this, we was having the, a class, my wife led their session, an experience, she had the Daily Worker which was the newspaper for the Communist Party.

SG: The English language paper, there were 10 papers [unclear].

MG: Yeah, the English paper was the Daily Worker, every federation group had a paper...

SG: [Unclear] Minnesota in MG: Huh?

SG: I forgot to mention that when [unclear]

MG: Yeah, and the English edition of the Worker had a big headline,Society this was supposed the American working class, 'there is no God - Zimba', that wasProject an exclusive. You can guess the [unclear] in the, the foundations of the systemRadicalism would crack [unclear] . And yet [unclear] I had as I said, I was not in the federation, I was aware of their existence, they had big mass meetings, they represented [unclear], they would either speak in English or they would speak in their native language and it would be translated. In MinnesotaHistory by the way you had federations, in the 1930s. We never, whenever the CP or the Stalinists would Historicalorganize one of their unity meetings, they called them unity meetings, it wasCentury loaded, you didn't have a chance. There was the Macedonians, I remember the Macedonian Federation,Oral of course the Finns... ST: Yeah. Slovenians.

MG: Slov...every federation, in addition all kinds of clubs, the Rosa Luxembourg Club, this club, they all got votes, they all representedMinnesota themselves, how can you be, so you were lucky to get out without beingTwentieth attacked by the wrong, winning a vote. I think I'll stop here on the background.

ST: Oh okay, there's one last question on the background, it'd be like, when you actually decided to join the Young Communist League, when you started your first organization, do you remember that as having been like a big step for you?

MG: Yes, it was a big step, it was a big step because after all I'd been through these struggles that I and here, and I knew who lead them and I was going to participate in the building of the new world, and my life was to be dedicated to that, there was a very conscious and deliberate decision. There were remnants of the federations there too. So, yes. These were the thoughts, my thoughts and my concepts. That the organization didn't live up to its, to what I had considered it was going to do and put into practice is another side of the story. I think we should keep in mind here that the early movement was influenced by the Russian Revolution and by the events that were taking place around the world. The early struggles in Germany, '23 and '24, course that I read about, I was not a participant. Trotsky published a work called [unclear] situation, it was a work on England, it was part of a, comments on the events of England at that time, in 1926 there was a big general strike, here you know events were taking place, the first Chinese revolution and they're also part of the disillusioning process took place. Chang Kai Chek was, I don't know, apparently I mispronounced his name but nobody else pronounced it right anyway. Mussolini, the struggle against the warlords, the Communist International.

[Sound of a liquid being poured]

SG: Oh, sorry.

MG: There was a struggle taking place already, Trotsky's comments on the Anglo-Russian Trade Union Committee, the British general strike, the strategy in China, I read all that, but that, even if I agreed with it that would mean that I would have to break and you don'tMinnesota do that easily. You don't leave an organization, you don't give it up, some people never couldin take that step. They... ST: It must be psychologically hard because you put so much into joining, that to then leave...

MG: Then to leave the organization, we never really knew what was going on as far as the struggle in Russia was concerned, and a lot of us closed our eyes to it. So, I wasSociety troubled that the leader of the, one of the co-leaders of the workers' revolution and theProject creator of the Red Army could now be a counter-revolutionist, I was worried about. In my branch [unclear] Dayton’s, it had to be '28, most, some of the, most of the story is in TheRadicalism History of American Class [unclear], Cannon also, he voted for the expulsion, didn't he vote for the expulsion of Trotsky? SG: What he said was that... HistoryHistorical MG: Am I an orphan? Century Oral SG: No, no, as uncomfortable as he felt with the entire, with all the proceedings, he could not speak out because he really didn't what this trouble was about because there were no documents, but to his everlasting shame, he did vote with the majority. Minnesota MG: Well,Twentieth I didn't vote, I took the coward's way out, the vote came up to expel a... SG: Well your vote must have been, that came up must have been...

MG: '28.

SG: Yeah, for Trotsky, and then to expel Cannon.

MG: No.

SG: There was no vote on that.

MG: Not yet, Cannon hadn't yet... SG: '28.

MG: Yes he was.

SG: Yes, he was, see in '28...

ST: Those exact dates are hard to pin down, you know I mean in your mind, but we can look those up probably.

MG: It was '28 I'm pretty sure when, I remember...

SG: The 6th World Congress was in...

MG: In session already. But I didn't know anything about it.

SG: Trotsky was already, he was already expelled and he was already out of Russia. Minnesota MG: Yeah. in SG: And then I guess the spring of '29 is when Cannon was, early '29, February of '29.

MG: Yeah. Yeah, I'll have another piece, thank you. Someone had been, his name was Friedman, you'll find his name in the history of American Trotskyism under the Societyname of Joe Cocker. I had been instrumental in, even in recruiting him, very bright fellow.Project And the vote came up in the [unclear], I was already assigned to the Communist Party, I couldn't stand the Communist Party unit, first of all it was Lithuanian, not that RadicalismI have anything against Lithuanians, but they're an older group, and I didn't understand many things outside of the broad nature of the struggle. Cause you have to make a study out of it, so you knowHistory what's going on. Anyway the vote came to expel him for Trotskyism, I sat there in anguish, finally the voteHistorical came and somehow when the vote was taking place, the room was full, I don'tCentury think I, nobody's ever, I sneaked out into the toilet so I didn't register my vote against it, I didn't Oralvote for it. But we figure Joe Friedman, later named Carter who remained Carter in all the time afterwards, that was after the Communist League was established, he would stand on 14th Street and it was already published Trotsky's criticism of the draft program, and we'd stopped and we talked, since we knew each other. And he [unclear] the book and I knew that just buying the book would be breaking the link, I bought the book, it's very difficult to understand, after all you can go Minnesotathrough your own experience. Were you a participant in the anti-war Twentiethmovement?

ST: Um hum.

MG: You got many pamphlets, many expositions, to be able to come to a conclusion just on the basis of these, some did, some can, but I can't, I couldn't, anyways I bought the book, and through some personal experiences, personal matters, I left in '29 for Chicago and it was in Chicago that I actually went through the draft program and became convinced, but I didn't join the, there were other experiences [unclear] but I didn't join the Communist League of America which was the Trotskyist movement until the winter of '29...I think it was the winter of 1930 and well I'm one of the few survivors. I remained a confirmed revolutionary socialist and a, an upholder of the concept and theories and basic outlook of Trotsky. My education in Marxism began at that time. Before that, as I said, before that it was the influence...[dog growling]...she hears something...

ST: Yeah, there's another dog barking.

SG: [Unclear] I know, come on, you have to go outside for a while...

MG: It was the, it was the training, self-training and going through the struggles with the and within the Troskyist movement that has maintained my relationship in the revolutionary movement, I consider myself an educated Marxist. Now how do I get to Minnesota?

ST: That's the question.

MG: As can be related, in the course of events, accidental meetings take place, I met a young woman in Chicago. She was from Minnesota, she was not related, she had no relations to the movement, she was Gary Cooper's sister, Goldie. And we met and formed a relationship, I guess I could also call myself a what would you call, an observer, not an observer, something more closer, I described to you the struggles, I actually saw the crash of 1929 in Chicago...Minnesota in END TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO

TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE Society MG: I think everybody had them [unclear], big thing, biggerProject than this. ST: Big old [unclear] Radicalism MG: Yeah, yeah. I got the job in '29, I didn't work there more than about two-three weeks and there was an announcement throughout the Historyplant that they're shutting down, no reason. It shut down and it never re-opened. And then the long [unclear]Historical from then on. I did all kinds of odd jobs [unclear] like [unclear] payCentury [unclear] dollar, dollar and a half during the day, addressing envelopes, man paid us in big silver dollars, andOral anways I met Goldie. We, I was unaffiliated by around that time, I'd not definitely broken, but I had broken but after all I was, today somebody would make a statement. I made no statement, just a rank and file person going through the experience and coming to certain conclusions and sure that neither Lovestone nor Foster missed me. It was, I went back east to find a job, then came back in the spring of 1930 or it could be the fall, I think it was just the beginning of the fall of 1930Minnesota and we went to Minnesota. I was not in political contact with anybody Twentiethat that time. But for a couple of years in New York I joined as I said the winter of 1930 and then I was [unclear] unemployed so we hitchhiked to Minnesota to Chaska where her family [unclear] a lot. By that time I was already a member and my, I had contacted the members with the Communist League of America, Vincent Dunn, Carl Skoglund, the other Dunns, Mickie Dunn, Lance, most of them were working in the coalyard, I think that must have been '31 and '32, [unclear], cause two years within that group [unclear] the summer and then in the fall we'd hitchhike back to New York, and I had this flag, the Communist League of America in Minneapolis. Now I stayed out in Chaska, I would [unclear], Goldie joined too, and if she joined at first because I was an influence, she played an independent role and so did Jake and so did Dave, even though to this day they say different, it's true. Here somebody comes from a city with ideas, takes a [unclear], their big sis does [unclear], you only do as family in that time in Minnesota, all the...

SG: In Chaska.

MG: In Chaska, in Chaska. All the Jewish kids had their experience, particularly being Jewish. The human race takes on prejudices and if it's difficult for somebody to leave a Party rather than describing to you, it's just as difficult and perhaps even more to discard prejudices relating to racial, religious and whatever [unclear] lines. The kids tell the story there were three boys, how many girls was there?

SG: Goldie...

MG: Goldie, Sally...

SG: Goldie, Bess, Sally, Becky, [unclear]. [dog growls] You want to go growl and bark, go in the other room. Five, five girls and three boys. Minnesota MG: When the girls who were the oldest used to come into thein classroom, everybody in the class would hold their nose, some would go and open the windows [unclear]. Jake developed this technique as a fighter in those troubles, they learned to leave Jake alone, he was terrific. You speak of somebody growing up in a ghetto and learning how to defend oneself, all the kids had to know, had to learn how to defend themselves and how to live and I think allSociety of them carried some of those early struggles. Project SG: They did, very definitely I think [unclear]Radicalism, I never met Goldie but [unclear][unclear] MG: Outside of Dave and Jake, the rest of them all become 101% Zionists and then [unclear], even though the youngest [unclear] at one time wasHistory a member of the movement, our movement. Phyllis. So that's how I came to Minnesota. Historical Century ST: Yeah, one question before weOral get into Minnesota, when [unclear] got help to join the first group of the Young Communist...

SG: League.

ST: League. Minnesota Twentieth MG: Yeah, YCL.

ST: How did it feel when you had left that and then were joining a second organization?

MG: Well, what was the difference? The first, that is my first decision to join the communist movement was based upon empirical evidence so to speak, I saw the struggle, I was influenced by the struggle. I knew that, and that, and saw who the leadership of that struggle was. The second was a more conscious decision because it was based upon the background of having seen the struggle, now relating it also to ideas and concepts and the, what shall I say, the history of the movement is before me. I had met Trotsky, I knew what the, I didn't know what the Russian Revolution was about except that it overthrew the Czar and I remember in the camps, people were singing about [unclear], there is a great amount of emotional reaction. The Russian Revolution represented an emotional reaction, afterwards when I joined the Trotskyist movement I knew that it was the first historical example of putting ideas into effect. It was therefore a decision on a higher plane which related both the observations and experience and what it was all about, who the factions were, what the roles of the individuals in the movement, what were Marx's feelings, what were Engels', what were Lenin's, because very little education in the Young Communist League, what we got were speeches for the greater part, 'go out and do and die', and in joining the Trotskyist movement I joined as a person with a, having gone through certain experiences and could relate these experiences to the historic struggle of the working class against the capital class, the theories that were involved, the, and kind of different experience...

ST: Did you just join up voluntarily or did someone recruit you?

MG: I joined, I joined voluntarily, I got in touch with the Trotskyist organization in New York on 10th Street and it was based entirely upon these experiences, if I described myself as a self-educated man I also would say that self-motivated in that direction because I Minnesotakept probing deeper and deeper into the [unclear] concept, idea, history and I entirely absorbed those into practice and the theoretical concept. in

ST: Some people that had the experience of being disillusioned with [unclear] could have just sort of quit altogether. Society MG: Many people did. Project ST: Why do you think you decided to keepRadicalism going then?

MG: If I could answer that, I'd have a revelation. So many people, so many talented people, much more talented and who played during the periodHistory a greaterHistorical role than I did, became disillusioned, particularly, some became disillusioned right after the Russian Revolution. Some became disillusioned over the rise ofCentury Stalin. Oral SG: [Unclear] that the language federation, so many of the immigrants were really realists [unclear] but were so totally refugees from the Czar, so that the, merely the act of the overthrow of the Czar had so much meaning for them, they had run from that oppression and of course the politics involved never came acrossMinnesota to them, and this is behind the emotionalism of their connectionTwentieth to the Communist Party. MG: The Communist Party for the greater part appealed to the emotions, I guess any Party has to appeal to the emotions, but when it's waved so much to emotions, the singing of the song, well the IWW had songs, but their songs were related to struggles and they were not so clear many times either, even though many sacrificed [unclear]_ the contest of syndicalism. When I joined the Young Communist League I didn't know anything about the concept of syndicalism. I knew the paper, the [unclear] the Jewish social democratic paper The Forbich was an enemy, the Freiheit was good, I didn't read either of them. Well the [unclear] of the needles trades struggle in New York at that time between left wing and right wing, but after [unclear] the story that even though that is part of my experience. I can't answer that question. I once at a picnic of the Minnesota Trotskyist movement, we had, from time to time we used to have discussions on what makes one stick it through and someone else doesn't, and you can come up with all kinds of ideas. There was a, he was a Trotskyist, one of the early Trotskyist, C. R. Hedlund, he ran, he was an engineer on the train...

SG: Railroad?

MG: Huh?

SG: Railroad? Railroad, was it?

MG: Railroad. He, let's see here there's [unclear] and then there was another one that ran on a different road...

ST: Soo Line?

MG: No. Anyway, he was the engineer on one of the main trains, and he went back to the days of Debs, in fact he looked like Debs and when he talked about the railroadsMinnesota you just sat and listened in fascination, he knew the railroad organizations and unions and inhistory forward and backward. I learned a great deal from C.R., that's what we called him. So this point came up in a conversation with C.R., what makes one a revolutionist, what makes one stick, and to feel the, Cannon once used the phrase, to live with the music of one's youth, and here I'm becoming abstract, but that's what it is, some people have the capacity because you were, you're [unclear] Societythe realm of psychology and ego satisfaction, ego gratification. C.R. said he thought, ProjectI never gave it too much credence, he thought it had something to do with the reflexes of a person, you could have gone with the physical thing, but I think, I believe vague as it is thatRadicalism the concept [unclear] that you live with the music of your youth is as good a description as I can give and it isn't, not everybody here can do that. And it isn't a matter of I think of going through experiences. All kinds of [unclear] takes place in a person's life, there are pulls in every direction,History as I saidHistorical ego gratification, sexual gratification, if you approach it on a broad philosophic manner life is short and before one shoves [?shovels] off to the unknown [unclear] there areCentury experiences and there are cantations and you're dealing particularly with a strata of people who are talented,Oral who can use their talents in many directions. Why should they face poverty, the bourgeoisie world can offer many places where people that can write, that can speak, that are personable, that can relate and to stay with a movement that is against the stream at all times is, the question is is it worth it, okay I've done enough, let me live a little bit, and I know I haven't touched it and I basically,Minnesota it's a very interesting question but I can't answer it. And I'm [unclear]Twentieth... ST: And I should say if you could answer the revolution would probably have happened in 1930.

MG: That's right. Every gen...you see all the generations try it, part of your generation [unclear], the generation coming up, but the entire generation doesn't search for it. So, that's about all I can comment on this, very interesting but complex question. What makes for a Kowski and what makes for a Lenin, they're...

ST: Well, let's get back to Minnesota and...

MG: Okay, I think so... ST: ...and start you going forward again.

MG: Well, we're in the depths of Depression, I might mention one incident that may have been a breaking point for me but it wasn't. That is my first trade union experience, and we had a group, a large [unclear] group in the, when I say large I don't mean in the thousands, but a fairly substantial grouping that [unclear], and they were in the hotel and restaurant, this goes back to the struggle of BJ Fields [?], if you have never read the history of American Trotskyism, Cannon describes it. Anyway a number of us were assigned to work in this strike and the strike was in '32...

SG: In New York.

MG: New York, it could have been '33, I think it was '33.

ST: This is one of the times when you hitchhiked back to New York...

MG: Yeah, so we had this experience, I had experience in the hotel and restaurant, of course the Trotskyist movement attracted intellectuals and some people who hadMinnesota experience in the Communist Party, also some younger people who had had no experience, whoin had capacities and there already existed a literature that they could read. For instance right now it would be no trouble to go through the literature and get [unclear] positions out based on your experience and getting back to the former question, to the point if you wanted to make your contribution and how you want to make your contribution. Fields was an intellectual, he was some kind of anSociety economist, I don't know, related to a well-to-do family and a family that dealt in moneyProject matters. But he wanted to make a mark in the labor movement. You can understand the type of individual I'm describing cause you [unclear] in the anti-war movement. ManyRadicalism people who, big shots in one field or another, or on campus joined the anti-war movement. He joined and wanted to play a role in the labor movement and since we had people in the hotel and restaurant in New York, Jews were in the garment trade, all Greeks were in the restaurant business, soHistory we hadHistorical a substantial grouping in the hotel [unclear] and fortunately they gathered around Fields and another person of Greek extraction. And it's that experience, the first trade unionCentury experience taught me all the negative lessons of what we should not do. Like for instance I was assignedOral when I was assigning picks, I signed up as a pot washers in the hotel kitchen and here are our chefs coming along, what do you do, I'm a potwasher and I'm directing, the potwasher is directing, the lowest of the low on the totem pole, in the hierarchy in the big New York restaurants, the potwash. It was an error, and there were many other errors which I won't go into, also elaborated onMinnesota in Cannon's book on the History of American Trotskyism. Anyways,Twentieth times were rough, there was no, I think there was relief, many of the people left, went on the relief program, but I think that early the relief program was haphazard, it wasn't, there wasn't too much being done, so we did go back in 1933 in summer and already began to see the appearance of a different type of Trotskyist movement, because before that, that is in '31 and '32 we used to meet in the old Labor Lyceum on 6th Street in Minnesota. Today it no longer exists, down in the basement and if anybody looking in on that group in 1931 or 1932 could have predicted that in 1933 they would be the leaders of an explosive movement amongst the drivers, they would say you're crazy. At the most eight or nine people, but they were some people, there was Carl Skoglund who was, Skoglund never acquired citizenship, he was always too busy, he was involved in 1921 the railroad shopman's strike, he was involved in the Communist Party underground, he was a delegate to the 1923 Farmer Labor convention in St. Paul. Vincent Dunn, he was a confirmed Marxist and [unclear] revolutionist, he had an IWW background, he was [unclear], he was part of the Cannon faction in the Communist Party. There was a grouping in Minnesota that went with Cannon. In the meetings of the Communist League already reports were being given about work being done with the drivers who were nothing but a name, that part of the story you can read, but I'm just describing what was, some of the younger people [unclear] reports, the Dunns, Skoglund, several others were working in the coal yards, some, coal you know was a big thing, and in wintertime you'd take a truckload of coal and you'd maybe bag anywhere from 25-50 pounds selling it and the same thing with ice which of course is [unclear] so that coal...

END TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE

TAPE TWO, SIDE TWO

MG: The coal yard in which Vincent Dunn worked, I think Farrell was there, Harry DeBoer, Skoglund, Grant, Mickie, there were two other Dunns, Fenton I think was his name, he was non-political, and Bill Dunn of course stayed with the Communist Party and he wrote scurrilous pamphlets about the Trotskyists and they attack on the Trotskyist leadership.Minnesota [Unclear] , so there was no relief going back to New York in '33, then in winter of course you couldn't go anywhere but anyways Goldie left for Minnesota in '34. She participated in thein Women's Auxiliary, the modern feminist movement wouldn't accept that concept very much, but I'm describing what existed. They played a good role, I left New York in the fall, fall of '34, after the whatever settlement was there... SG: Settlement of what? Society Project MG: Hm? Radicalism ST: Of the Teamsters? MG: Teamsters, you know after the basic struggle,HistoryHistorical the basic struggles were over... SG: When you came to Minnesota.Century Oral MG: When I came to Minnesota. We stayed in Chaska, but we went back [unclear], I remember my first experience with the unemployed, there was a big demonstration, I think winter was just about ready to pop and you know winter, what the winters in Minnesota can be. That winter was really a memorable one, as bad asMinnesota last winter, it was pretty bad. That winter, summers were over 100, practically for weeks in Minneapolis, people slept out in the parks and winters were a good 20 and 30 below.Twentieth So you couldn't do too much, but I'm not certain it was '34 or '35 but my impression is that it was in '34 in the fall there was a demonstration of the unemployed around City Hall. The principle organization in that time was the Minneapolis Organization of All Workers, it's in the book and it was a very militant demonstration around City Hall and it was kind of a greeting because the cops at that time had armored cars, the city had just acquired them and the armored cars would shoot out tear gas bombs, only there was one thing wrong with them, the tear gas bombs [unclear] shot out and they'd come out of the catapults whole and sputtering so you could pick them up and throw them back to the cops or even right into the armored vehicle. They improved the technology. And I remember everybody even though you might consider that a victory had taken place but the victory was modified because it had been a terrific struggle, all the leaders, there was no funds available, the contract it was signed, did not recognize the union, it recognized committees in the various fields, shops, so for instance if there were let's say 15 or 25 people in a working, it would be a shop committee, and it was that shop committee that was recognized, and it took from, a couple years before the actual organization, that is the union, would do the negotiating.

ST: This is of the Teamsters...

MG: The Teamsters, Teamster, Teamsters, unemployed had no jobs. In one of my experiences in the unemployed, I [unclear] put this in, the CP, [unclear] we call them Stalinists, they were the leadership of the unemployed movement and they called these unity conferences I told you about. This, it could have been in '32, some of them '32, some of them '33, but had to be '32, they called the unity conference of the unemployed and the Communists, the Minneapolis branch of the Communist League sent delegates, decided, there was Skoglund, Vincent Dunn, a fellow by the name of Forson and myself, we went there. And no sooner had we walked into the hall than the chairman, today we would call them chairperson, stopped what he was talking about until we were seated and then he announced to the audience that everybody should recognize and be on the alert because five police spies had just sat down and we give these spies Minnesotafive minutes to get out or else. These poor workers you know, why should they not believe that, this is their leader, all eyes were upon us and it was a big hall, we decided that the better part of incaution to leave and we did. We got up and we walked all the way in the aisle and there were eyes, curses, some people spat upon us, this is the atmosphere of the Communist Party at that time. And if they cleaned up a little bit, give them a chance, spots of the leopard would not change. The unemployed movement that I met again in the fall of '34 was an entirely different movement. The CP becauseSociety of its arrogance and its sectarian approach, if you did not follow the leadership ofProject the CP you were, when I say kicked out, I mean kicked out, physically. So there was the unemployed movement in the [unclear], under the leadership of the, that part of the unemployedRadicalism movement that had worked with the Teamsters in the strike, the unemployed played quite a role. I think there, you should understand and I have expressed the concept that the 1933 coal strikeHistory as well as the 1934 general strike were more than just strikes, they were the uprising of a people of theHistorical area who had for many years had been a passageway for field hands,Century people who worked in the iron mines in Detroit, Detroit....Duluth, and the structure, the entire structure, thereOral were no basic industries in Minneapolis at that time, it was a commercial center, it was under control of an employers organization known as the Citizens Alliance. If an organization was formed they had spies in there, we had a spy in the Communist League, I think they were wiser [unclear] of the potential power that that group of individuals had despite the smallness of their size.Minnesota So I said it was an eruption of the people and it was like maybe it's a little bit farfetched when I say a rebellion but it had become [unclear] a rebellion, it was not just a simpleTwentieth strike, even though the, the demands of the strike were very, very much based upon needs, demands, higher wages, a revolt against the conditions of sitting in a hiring hall run by the Citizens Alliance and being told to work maybe two three hours and getting paid to make a dollar twenty, two dollars, you can do better on relief, all the bitterness and of the, and the indignities and all that goes with it were expressed in those strikes. I, the history of that strike and that movement in my mind is alway, I almost considered it a kind of a epic with its heroes and its villains and particularly the first part, if you will recall, when Homer describes the Iliad and the Odyssey, in the Iliad the heroes are presented, in the Odyssey they run into troubles. Well we ran into troubles too afterwards too because the, all other forces of government were upon us in later years, the city administration, the state and the federal government and, but in that period, when the strike was taking place, there you have a people in revolt and you have a leadership that is tied very closely with the feelings and the needs, whether they were employed or unemployed, and that is something basic because it was, the fact that it was, that kind of a movement and the role that the unemployed played even to the extent where I believe two of the unemployed were killed during that strike, and their, the funeral was held which was part of the struggle. The, leadership of the Teamsters, local 574, facing all the odds to win the strike against Tolbin and so forth, who but a revolutionary socialist leadership could make a promise that they would assist and help the unemployed and go through with it. Consider all the promises that politicians make, elect me and little streams of whiskey will come trickling down [unclear]. So that, it was that experience that built the movement and it was again I came to Minnesota, followed the strikes but I didn't come to be a leader of the unemployed movement, I came to Minnesota because my wife came from Minnesota, there wasn't too much to do and I could not provide for her and...

SG: And there were three square meals a day in Chaska there.

MG: Sure were, sure were, sure were. Not unimportant. So forces were needed, the unemployed were organized. I've often asked Farrell who came upon the name FederalMinnesota Workers and the, most organizations of unemployed called themselves Unemployed Councils, or something like that, but here you have a name Federal Workers, they did not concede inin [unclear] , their entire experience as far as they were concerned, the people that I dealt with they considered themselves workers and their jobs as worker's jobs, not working on the WPA doing busy work. Many, my experience also in the mass movement has shown that all tactics and strategy is not worked out on top, that the rank and file given the opportunity are adventurous and also creative, that Societyits forms which are attributed many times to a leadership, the kernel of the idea is developedProject in the struggle itself and the concept of the Federal Workers Section grew and developed in this mass upsurge that took place in Minnesota, in Minneapolis beginning withRadicalism the coal the winter of 1933 and continuing to 1940, no later on, '4..up to '41, '42, '43. Again, the dates are not clear, all I know is I know the dates in which I went to prison and came out. I know the datesHistory in which I served time. I served time twice. They are, experiences of the Federal Workers was unique,Historical just as the Minnesota movement that I have described, and you as a historianCentury should look up the history of the struggles in Minnesota, the struggles of the IWW and even of theOral Socialist Party, keeping in mind that you had here the best expressions of the foreign workers movement, you had the Finns, the Swedes, Carl Skoglund if I'm not mistaken left Sweden [unclear] because he was going to be drafted into the army. He came to this country as a socialist, a revolutionist, so did many others. And you know for many years, maybe it's still true, in MinneapolisMinnesota particularly and it seemed to be almost a lot Minnesota if your name isn't a Scandinavian one, you don't get too far in politics. It was far truer at that time, and the early historyTwentieth is very interesting, very interesting. But that's not what we're [unclear]. The Federal Workers Section to which you might ask how did I get to be, to the Federal Workers Section...

SG: They asked that in court too.

MG: Huh?

SG: They asked it in court too.

MG: I was unemployed, I was on WPA and I was a Trotskyist, the Communists needed help, particularly the unemployed movement, there we were being harried at all times, my, we never had any peace, there was never at any time you might say where an organization is solid, there was always a foment, every time a contract was over, struggle began all over again. The Citizens or the bosses never accepted the idea or the concept that Minneapolis was a revolution, was a revolutionary center in that period. And that, it was spreading out and it was. When you see Farrell or he comes to Minneapolis he can tell you more about the spreading out. When you consider what the inheritors of Farrell's work and the organization of the central states, Teamsters central states, Chicago, Omaha, Detroit, between Dobbs and Harper there's not only, [unclear] or [unclear] and going back there to this question, what makes one remain a revolutionary and choose a cause you might ask, there's Tobin, Dan Tobin at that time President of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and so forth, Farrell was an international organizer, Tobin recognizes Farrell's ability, there he's spread out before him you know like the devil spreading out before a good Christian you know, everything that anybody could want...

SG: At the height of the Depression yet.

MG: At the height of the Depression. Why did Farrell Dobbs turn that down and remain, others didn't, remain with a persecuted movement and then even stepping Minnesotadown and accepting the post of secretary, labor secretary in the Socialist Workers Party, I can tell you numbers were not like they, as they described like the sand to the beach, very limited, nor I inthink [unclear] Farrell [unclear] at that time I don't think we could even pay more 30-35 dollars a week, he was a family man, he had youngsters to raise, well he made that decision, you ask him about it, and others on the other hand, my God, $20-25,000 a year, a car, an unlimited expense account, it's, you have to admit it's very tempting, it's very tempting and you must, one must have a real consciousSociety concept of oneself one's role, one's integrity. Call it morality, I don't know what youProject would call it, but throughout history it was the saving grace of the human race and because such people exist and will continue to exist one day mankind will reach the end of the cloudsRadicalism and see daylight. And I might add that's part of the music of youth, it keeps, keeps one within the movement. But anyways, help was needed in the Federal Workers Section, these were workersHistory [unclear], I'm a political, now I was asked to see what I could do, particularly since I am on WPA and in orderHistorical to get on WPA I had to get on relief. Goldie and I, we left the safetyCentury of Chaska and the three square and we went on relief in Minneapolis and from there to WPA, and there Oralwere other people of our people, the same position also joined. Now [unclear] ask what made me a leader of the unemployed, considering the, my background and the people that I was going to be associated with are New York Jews, raised in New York, I learned about America in Minnesota, a little bit in Chicago. I, to an extent it was the period and the fact that our people vouchsafed for me,Minnesota but also I had to produce, to be recognized as a leader. And all the training that I described before merged to make it possible for me to overcome the obstacles. Workers Twentiethare not intellectual s, they move on the basis of need, only those you have developed to the point where ideas, concepts and goals, ideologues if you want to [unclear]. Our language doesn't provide the advice, formula for names but I was able to relate to the unemployed...

END TAPETWO, SIDE TWO

TAPE THREE, SIDE ONE

SG: [Unclear]

MG: Our rivals which we did have, the Communist Party forces took over the charters in the CIO and they, their forces in the Machinist Union, now the history of the Workers Alliance comes in there. During the period of strike, yeah, during the period of the strike the Stalinists couldn't do anything except you might say just yap at our heels, but once they had a base in the CIO and with the organization of the Workers Alliance, are you familiar at all with the organization of the Workers Alliance?

ST: Well you should refresh my memory.

MG: Okay, the Workers Alliance came out of a need for a national organization for the unemployed and there again the Communist Party, there was no comparison as far as forces [unclear] the mainstream, still the mainstream of the radical movement outside of Minneapolis, and their, they had a couple of people, the name that sticks in mind is Herbert Benjamin, and unemployed councils which were lead by CP people and there also had developed a left-wing in the Socialist Party at that time, which in itself is a history because that led to the Trotskyists entering the Socialist Party because basically the SP organizations after the coming of Hitler to power, deep discussions going on, how is that possible and what we call centrist organizations developed, that is organizations staying between the so-called communist position andMinnesota the social democratic position. Trotsky called him the 2-1/2 International, so the Workers Alliance is organized in supposedly in a united front between the Communist Party and the so-called leftin wing of the SP. The leading figure for the Communists was Herbert Benjamin, the leading figure for the SP forces was David Lasser. In my description to Farrell I said that Lasser cheats, he wasn't a member of the Communist Party afterwards, he cheated them out of their dues because there's one thing that the Stalinists knew how to do and that's put up fronts and many a person the Communists supposedlySociety describing as recommending a hidden organization was actually a memberProject of the CP. They misled people in many ways, they do this, they still do it. So the Workers Alliance is organized and we were for it, after all a national organization, we wouldRadicalism be sectarian to say that we were opposed to it because we couldn't control it, that's what the CP did, and we made a decision that, '38 I think it was, I'm talking Minnesota, we had other [unclear]. Lasser Historycame through, we talked with him and we were ready to merge [unclear] organization to become part of the HistoricalWorkers Alliance. There was pressure also on the drivers, the Teamsters, itCentury was already '38, on the edge of the World War, new currents are coming up in the labor movement andOral we held a convention to [unclear] to unite the unemployed organizations on a statewide basis, I believe it was '38. Well I described to you these unity conventions where you have all kinds of organizations, the Workers Alliance under CP leadership wasn't only an unemployed organization, they took in, they took in everybody, it was a, actually it was an adjunct of the Farmer LaborMinnesota movement, Olson was dead, Benson was governor and he surrounded by CP picard people. I met, and they had a stronghold in the Highway Department, I met severalTwentieth of them in prison.

ST: What's a picard?

MG: A picard, it was an expression used in the IWW, that you work for you know, you weren't really a, somebody who worked for the cause, but you worked for a paycheck, picard meant pork choppers, your present union leadership, but in those days they were still...Fifi go away from there, I know you'd love to get your, you go away. So the convention was called and we had an agreement with Lasser. So we met at the state office building in St. Paul, I think it's still in existence. But we were up against a, an uncontrollable situation, we were an organization of the unemployed and we faced a miscellany of catch-all people, once again the Macedonian Federation, the Rosa Luxembourg thing, someone from a lot of rural places where Chester Watson who was the leading figure of the state Workers Alliance and CP representative got together a little group, maybe five or ten people and they sent four or five delegates, ain't [unclear]. So we were overwhelmingly opposed and [unclear] with the proposal at the convention, take it or leave it, to the effect that the Federal Workers Section would be dismantled, it would be a Workers Alliance, the United Workers Alliance organization, and they offered us one post on the state executive board, citing the fact that we were just one organization there as opposed to their bob tail little groups that they had which was nothing. So Carl Skoglund was there on our advisement and we talked it over, you know everything was debated at the convention, the Spanish Civil War, the anti-fascist struggle, I'm not saying that it was [unclear] but it would be like a conference of the, in the anti-war movement where somebody would bring in, they would bring in all kinds of proposals instead of the proposals for the struggle itself, it would have become merely a tail of the Farmer Labor democratic political organization and we found we could not accept it and we walked out of that convention, all of our, just, it was, you can interpret, if you stayed there was no use staying there against that, again. Cougins, didn't understand the issue, all, and we were, [unclear] found it too radical even though we were on a much firmer basis, after all we had gotten concrete benefits for the unemployed which were not obtained anywhere else. They had something to learn fromMinnesota us, but there was a political hatchet job so [unclear]. This went on until 1939, as I remarkedin the winds of war were blowing and they were getting set to dismantle the WPA project, as far as the WPA workers were concerned, it meant going back on relief and it was bitter gall amongst all of those, nobody wanted to go back to, even though we had threatened that we would do that and again who called this strike, the, it was a national strike, but actually it was a national demonstration and a strike in the Minneapolis area, we were too far advanced. In actuality I was in New York attending a conventionSociety of our Party and then on the way back I saw pickets with banners against beingProject dismissed, pink slips they called it, being dismissed from WPA and I knew even beforeRadicalism I would come back that we would be in the position of holding a tiger by the tail, we were isolated. You can't build socialism in one country, you sure can't do it in one city and the best organized [unclear] in one area, you cannot fight the entire government, but when I got back to Minneapolis,History Ed Palmquist and [unclear], workers were just walking off [unclear], they were angry and here wasHistorical a special group of unemployed, who didn't look upon themselves as unemployed,Century they had gone through a strike and they had seen what organization can do and so there isOral a spontaneous leading of the project and of course a movement of this kind there always is some who lay back, want to continue and the object is to close the project in order to show that, the power. We, the same thing was going down amongst the building trades workers and we met with them, in fact we had a kind of workers alliance, Building Trades - Federal Workers Section, and theMinnesota Central Labor Union officials Willan Neeley had to go along with it, they didn'tTwentieth like it, the, we had a strike. The army was the Federal Workers Section, that is those, there were the pickets, we had a strike headquarters, we were an organized force, the Workers Alliance couldn't, didn't do a damn, it was not a convention, it was a battlefield and they didn't belong on a battlefield, the Macedonian Society didn't come out, and all the other paper organizations that they had for vote carrying purpose. So, and fact of the matter is the Workers Alliance, David Lasser and Benjamin both officially after maybe a week, maybe less than a week called off the strike, but we could no more call off that strike, than you could you know stop the waves of the ocean, that was Minnesota, that was the [unclear] at that that. And how can you describe a generation that makes a revolution to the generation that comes after that. So I cannot even begin to describe to you the character, the tenacity, the courage and all that goes with it that the, that the workers of that period showed. They couldn't believe that they could be defeated after what they had gone through. We knew, I knew, I knew that sooner or later and so did our leadership that at a certain point we had to make some kind of an agreement. We were not shutting any of the central part of industry, and it wasn't a movement that we could spread to anywhere else, after all the national Workers Alliance had called it off. We met, our committee, with Governor Stassen, Stassen was governor at that time, Walter Frank representing the Building Trades, Workers Alliance, myself and I'm sure everything was packed. And Stassen didn't mean us any good but he was playing politics and the deal was to reach some kind of, and we knew we had to reach some kind of settlement and the question was as to what we could give in to. Well to make the, the struggle again here is an accidental part, the question of it being reachable, the WPA project was scattered all over the county, but in the heart of the city was a building, it was a WPA project, the Sewing Project, I've forgotten just where it was, that became the center of the struggle, the police were there, we were there, there were almost daily encounters and workers had learned how to handle the armored cars I told you about, they could also be turned over, six workers on either side and you stop, with the cops, you'd start rocking them and pretty soon they turned over and the papers in that [unclear] were full of the events and we finally had to call it off. But everybody had to sign some kind of [unclear] pledge which [unclear]. That's nationwide, isn't it? [unclear] Minnesota SG: The Northwest Organizer, yeah, [unclear] problems nationwidein is what they [unclear], 'WPA strikers in Twin Cities lead shut-down in state', July 1939.

ST: Now is this, did you, okay, then what happened. MG: Well after we, we called off the strike, the Sewing Project was Societybasically women, oh [unclear]... Project

ST: Is that you there, huh? Radicalism

MG: Yeah, that's me. Is [unclear] in there, yeah. That's Walter Plank... HistoryHistorical SG: 2nd Street, 123 Second Street, yeah that's where the Sewing Project... Century MG: This is Chester Watson of theOral Workers Alliance, this is our committee. This is the Parade grounds. As the government stepped in, FBI, they'd been around the crowd, and to the FBI, the militant on the picket lines is the one they grabbed, many times, you know there were a number of people that became, that were indicted that I hadn't, that I didn't know, they were just active in that period, in that strike. The exactMinnesota number I believe over 150 indictments were handed down on the charge, theTwentieth precise charges are also documented, but basically we were charged with conspiracy to deprive American citizens of the 1939 Relief Act because of the closing down of the project. One, I believe there were three trials, again the whole, this was all documented here you can get that, there were four or five people from the Workers Alliance who regretted while in prison that they ever had been members the Workers Alliance because they were left to rot there. Sid [Sig?], do you remember the number of people that were on trial, was it, I guess...

SG: 20, it was some, it's in here, with each trial there were...

MG: There were three trials, the big trial was the, were the people in the Federal Workers Section and, 12, 12 people I think, but you can look it up. SG: We can tell you, I'll find it.

MG: Three people, the trial was a mockery, though we had good defense, Central Labor Union supported us. In fact they put up the Central Labor Union building as bail for us to get out of jail, unheard of for, can you imagine the Central Labor Union doing that these days. We were in Hennepin County Jail, there was quite an experience. We were supported by the entire labor movement. The [unclear] in the general driver's strike of 1934, we had a tag day[?], [unclear] contribute, [unclear] the unions, certain unions voted a certain amount of money, even the milk wagon drivers I think contributed a day's pay to the defense fund. We filled the upper tiers, I don't know [unclear] number of the [unclear], and I have a sketch by one of the people who was in jail, he is not an artist in Minneapolis, his name is Sid Fossum...

ST: Oh, yeah, I know him.

MG: You know him. Minnesota ST: I know of him. in MG: Right, and he might talk to you. I know, he's not a political person, he wasn't, in fact I completely forgot about it until Carlos [unclear] wrote me about the sketch. Carlos is out of the movement also. But getting back there, while we were in prison we were visited by Camus who had just been released and he came into the Hennepin jail... Society Project SG: [Unclear] it was, I'm sorry. Radicalism MG: Yeah, how many was it. SG: Well, one, the second, one trial had eightHistory defendants and then here it speaks of 14 women and 11 men, so that's 25, that was yours, the big trial, theHistorical [unclear] trial... Century MG: Yeah, out of the 150 indictments,Oral anyways, we had these trials, I think 12 of us got actual jail sentences...

SG: Yeah, this is a new trial, here, the 25.

MG: Yeah. The rest got either,Minnesota they couldn't find, a few they couldn't find evidence against and some wereTwentieth put on, what do you call it...

SG: Probation.

MG: Probation.

SG: By the way, a lot of the, did you mention that in the course of the Sewing Project that trial was, there were a good number of women and how militant they were.

MG: Yes.

ST: Yeah. MG: They were, they were such, they became the center, of flag-waving and defense, and from this educated women tried to go through, nobody taught the militant what to do, but they were so enraged, they stripped them of their clothing as they went in. And, but I knew about it...the, as I said three of us spent a year and a day. The reason we got, you get a year and a day is that that deprives you of certain civil rights, it, that becomes a felony and we served at Sandstone. Some people got only three months. The jail experience itself, well it wasn't good, but we were not in a concentration camp, I'm not trying to make excuses, a jail is a jail. You're under guard, I remember when we first came in, the WPA-ers, and the deputy what do you call him, administrator of the prison gave us a lecture to the effect we know your reputation and we know you consider yourself tough guys and so forth and so on, but we'll be watching you and the first misstep you'll see that we can maintain control and this, Powpers[? Compers?] were assigned to the library, it was a new prison. In actuality it wasn't called a penitentiary, it was called a correctional institution, they were not, inmates from the hard core who were ready to be paroled...

END TAPE THREE SIDE ONE Minnesota TAPE THREE SIDE TWO in MG: ...that no one really had asked for me to be in Minneapolis, I was a windfall, but I think we could expand it a little and say there have been many points in history where an individual and the social needs sort of get together. It's, it isn't planned that way, so my, the entire events that I have described on my coming to Minnesota, my background, the experiencesSociety that I have gained, and there we have a social boiling cauldron so to speak. I wasProject prepared for it, but I wasn't prepared for that particular one, and I found my place in the Federal Workers Section. We were part of the general drivers, the Federal Workers Section,Radicalism the general drivers consisted of a number of areas, there was the fruit and vegetable market, that was one group of employers, there were other groupings, and so the unemployed movementHistory as such was under the guidance of the executive committee of the Teamsters but because we were notHistorical employed as such, we had no contract with the government, we had ourCentury own independent set-up, still under the guidance of the executive board of the general drivers, but we did notOral vote for officers of the Teamsters, it was, no I don't want to auxiliary, because we were not an auxiliary, we were an unemployed organization sponsored and supported by the general drivers executive board. The directing organizations, we had an executive board, now you've got to understand something about the unemployed movement, it's a, it's not, it was the most stable of unemployed organizations, but still it could not be stable cause the moment somebody found a job they wereMinnesota no longer amongst the unemployed, so elections were haphazard, leadershipTwentieth is established by what you contribute, what you were [unclear], and the basic authority still rested in the decisions of the executive board of the general drivers. But it was not a bureaucratic set-up, we concentrated on WPA project, we also concentrate, we also took care of grievances of the unemployed, that is those who were on direct relief, but the basic sections of the organization were based on the WPA project at that time. The earlier unemployed organizations were just based on the fact that people were unemployed, were receiving relief, they had grievances, they didn't have enough coal, they didn't have enough clothing, they, it was a constant struggle to keep body and soul together and you know today the big hullaballoo is made about welfare and chiselers, my opinion is that it's a propaganda proposition and the number of chiselers are so small that it isn't, it's not too significant, what I'm trying to point out is that people on relief at that time were on relief because they had to be on relief, there was no other way out. You're speaking of a period when in the country you had out of a labor force at that time of maybe 40, maybe 35-40 million, you had 18-20 million unemployed and if you read through the documents, it certainly seemed this was the end of capitalism, couldn't provide even if they had jobs for people. But WPA was a semblance of a job and if some work was busy work, yes that's true, there was, there was also some creative, many creative projects. You know the, in Minneapolis today you have the beltline highways, they were built by WPA. My co-leader of the Section Ed Palmquist, a Swede, not too political, but he served two times in prison, you don't have to show political papers to the judge, so we used to make the rounds of the project, all around the beltlines and Ed would look, see, see what we're building, we're doing this. The libraries are still full of well I guess you'd call them [unclear] firsts, that is histories of Minnesota, you might find some [unclear]

ST: Yeah, [unclear] projects...

MG: if they're WPA projects, post offices had murals painted by unemployed artists. I was on an adult education project called Workers Education and it was a, it was sponsored by Eleanor Roosevelt, at that time we should understand that the, if there was anyMinnesota one time in the period of the United States, that the ruling class of this country felt jittery it was at that time and so they developed forms like for instance Roosevelt had to initiate or notin initiate rather support the concept that workers had a right to organize, the Wagner Act. Up to that time there was no legislation that workers had a right to organize. And so this theory of adult education, workers education, somebody sold Eleanor on the idea, well if you're a banker you got to learn all about banking, if you're a merchant you got to learn all about merchandising, and if you'reSociety a mechanic you should know about machinery. Well a worker should learn, shouldProject know something about American history, labor history, economics, the social scene and this is very unique. The Workers Education program, that's what I was on, I taught laborRadicalism history, in fact when we didn't have anything to do, we met, they'd send us to the university where we were supposed to prepare [unclear] of work to show we did something, we made a big sum of money,History $25 a week, that was big money in a professional project. And as it turned out, politically if you [unclear]Historical as to who the people were on the Workers Education Project program Centurywho direct it and gave it a [unclear] in Minnesota the Trotskyist movement [unclear] large and so weOral had a considerable influence on that workers education program.

ST: What, did people take those courses after they were done with their WPA job, or was this for [unclear] Minnesota MG: ThisTwentieth was, generally you had to organize, you have to have had a labor school, labor education school which was supported by the Central Labor Union in Minneapolis and in other places. And in that school we taught labor history, economics, parliamentary procedure, we made it possible for some people to engage in a career of labor bureaucrat.

ST: This is the school that came later or the first thing.

MG: Came later. No in the Federal Workers Section, I said we had an executive board, we had stewards body, this was modeled after the Teamsters form of organization and we had a once a month general membership meeting. Organization met at the Teamsters headquarters on Plymouth. The, you can see by what I'm reciting how much help the unemployed received from the Teamsters, the hall, we didn't pay any rent. In addition some expenses were paid, minimum, most of the leaders were on WPA jobs and would volunteer at the, we had a couple of full-timers, weren't paid too much, Ed Palmquist was one. The dues to Federal Workers Section was 25 cents a month and on WPA jobs, everybody wore, you wore a big button, we got, each month it would be a different colored button so you could recognize a paid up member or not. But then membership is very fluid. Today you could thousands of people into a meeting and tomorrow you couldn't get a couple of hundred, but the organization existed. Grant Dunn was assigned by the executive board to be chairman of the Federal Workers Section, but Grant Dunn had many other duties and Grant at times was not available to take up the grievances. What would the grievances be, I hate to say it, but a WPA worker didn't have too much of a outlook, and if alienation existed in large plants, at least they got paid for it, but here you're working for 60.50 a month, so somebody would get drunk, well our task was to get him back on the job but the big thing that we won was a struggle, was the subsidy to WPA wages which was on a sliding scale beginning with a family of two. In addition to the regular wages on WPA, the Minneapolis Welfare Board paid an additional sum in services, in-kind, or even in money, so that in Minnesota families ran pretty big, so somebody let's say like for instance Carl Key, one of our people, he had a family of 10 or 11, well he was making about $85 a month on WPA but the subsidy that he got brought him up toMinnesota almost $200 a month. Now we were back in a struggle, the whole struggle was documented byin Farrell, but as a regular practice, I forgot, we were speaking about classes, I put down as a class the weekly meeting of the Federal Workers Section stewards. The authorities knew about it, but they wouldn't touch us, but you had to go through forms. Our stewards knew once in a while somebody would come in to check whether there was really a class being held and I would, I had learned in the process of the, my activity, I could take off you know without a big study on one subjectSociety or another subject, so he would stay there five minutes and I would go into some historicalProject explanation and then I'd get the signal, Max it's okay and we would proceedRadicalism with our, with the business and the business was the stewards, it was a report of what's going on in the projects, I'll come afterwards, but, and the way we won the special subsidy, you know, the Farmer Labor councilman on the City Council and there had been a study made by, in the, by, at the HistoryUniversity as to what was, should be a living, necessary living amount based upon a family of four. We workedHistorical on it and of course we didn't get all we wanted but we would attendCentury every meeting of the Minneapolis Welfare Board and I was [unclear], I was the spokesman, we took up everyOral question that came up with the Welfare Board, even when Sister...

SG: Kenny. Minnesota MG: Sister Kenny came to Minneapolis to ask the Welfare Board for funds to build a clinic and membersTwentieth of the board were questioning the money that was involved, and I, a spokesman for the Federal Workers Section I spoke up and defended. Other questions would come up with the Welfare Board such as taking away the [unclear] workers on relief and on WPA who were owning automobiles and this was, money was being put out. Our threat to the Welfare Board was if we didn't get the subsidy or the automobiles were taken away, we'd close down all the projects and everybody would go back on relief. And, the, our rival...no...

ST: On that subsidy.

MG: On the subsidy, the Teamsters paper, we would, go through the Northwest Organizer and the Organizer you'll find articles on the question of the subsidy, Farrell has an accounting of it too. We, at times would storm the Welfare Board until the [unclear] was made that nobody could attend the Welfare Board meetings unless they paid Max Geldman and Ed Palmquist to get in, and... And then we would pick out the Farmer Labor members of the City Council and we'd have vigils, certainly have the Central Labor Union, varied other unions pass resolutions on that question, it was a, quite a campaign. And we were in a unique position in Minneapolis, that the WPA worker, let's say with a normal family of four could make out, because in addition to the money from WPA, there was the subsidy from the city, and then there was distribution of food products, federal, but they're too stupid bureaucrats. In Minnesota they distributed corn meal, get us wheat - we didn't know anything about corn meal and after the distribution, the next day all the garbage cans would be full of corn meal, [unclear] that they ate, it reminds me...

SG: I'll bet they distributed herring down south.

MG: Yeah, yeah, probably. It reminds me also of the early period after the Second World War, the CARE packages, and they would send let's say dry milk to the Middle East, and they looked at it and nobody, they didn't know what to do with it, you know, eat it, so same kind of a bureaucratic thing, but the basic thing was that we had the staff[?] and it was strong.Minnesota ST: Was there any specific meetings at which, that subsidies wasin finally okayed with [unclear]

MG: Yeah, there was the meeting of the Welfare Board where they agreed to it after all the preliminaries that I have been describing to you. You're talking they just give them to us, we fought for it and there are very few places, very few places in the country thatSociety were able to achieve [unclear] and again it may put in a plug for the TrotskyistProject leadership that made good their promises to the unemployed, that they were not just fighting for their own, that is the needs of the drivers, but this was a popular uprising and the influenceRadicalism of the drivers and then later on in the drivers councils and in other areas. St. Paul never had it, just across there, the influence of the Federal Workers Section and general drivers and their prestige was such. One of the other leaders of the Federal Workers Section, George Line was his name,History an oldHistorical railroad worker, we were asked by the South Dakota Federation of Labor officials to come and make a tour of South Dakota as to how the unemployed were organized.Century You've got to remember that even sections of the official trade union movement worked on the WPA projectsOral such as well there is the truck drivers, independent truck drivers, if you're going to do work on a beltline, you need trucks and then electricians, practically all of the building trades were on these projects. Of course we, they were not organized in the Federal Workers Section, they were responsible to their own organizations because they had unemployed, skilled and no-skilled were unemployed.Minnesota Oscar Coover Sr. was electrician, he worked on WPA and there wasTwentieth a constant battle there to keep the hourly wage and from time to time they would reduce the times, instead of putting in eight hours we'd put in six hours, but the unions in the area fought, zealously fought to maintain the hourly union rate as I shall describe a little later. The big 1939 WPA strike was not declared by, even though we were the most effected, the Federal Workers Section, the building, the lay-offs began with the building trades and we used it as we decided many times in the anti-war movement, we needed an umbrella under which you could march, that is a recognized organization so we called the strike on WPA 1939 in support of the building trades, but that didn't help us too much. The government knew who was leading the strike. The, we had organizations, groupings in outlying areas, in Farrell's account which I wrote out, the, long ago and my memory doesn't, anyway it's a lapse of memory as to just precisely, but we had in Federal Workers Sections in the suburban areas, the, I'm skipping a lot, because do you have the picture of the Federal Workers Section: ST: Yeah, pretty well, pretty well. Were there any, before that '39 strike, say between you know '35 and '39 were there any specific struggles that happened or incidents that stick out in your mind.

MG: Well we always had skirmishes on the WPA job, you can imagine what you can do. I'm employed by, I'm on WPA, I'm supposed to be working even though I have a teacher's status, status - we never got, we never got status - after all we didn't have degrees, how can, I did get recognition for the work that I did, I wrote a class outline of the history of the American labor movement, about 12 sessions or so which were mimeographed by WPA and it turned up as evidence of subversive activities in the, at the trial, even though WPA had published it, I still got it.

SG: Did you tell him what Dave Cooper says?

MG: Huh?

SG: Did you tell him what Dave Cooper says?

MG: Nah. Minnesota in SG: Dave was at the University of Minnesota at that time, and Humphrey was, what was he then...

MG: He was the last...yeah, I was already in prison, he was the last kid of the Workers Education Program... Society SG: Yeah, I knew him from [unclear] somewhere, and heProject read the outline and he told Dave that they're the best notes he'd ever seen on AmericanRadicalism labor history. MG: He didn't know too much. History SG: Well they were good, though. Historical Century MG: Yes. Oral SG: They were very good, really high quality...

END INTERVIEW Minnesota Twentieth