Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru the National Assembly for Wales

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mercher, 28 Tachwedd 2012 Wednesday, 28 November 2012 28/11/2012

Cynnwys Contents

3 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

28 Cwestiynau i’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol Questions to the Counsel General

32 Cwestiynau i Gomisiwn y Cynulliad Questions to the Assembly Commission

32 Cynnig i Ddiwygio Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6 mewn perthynas â Chadeiryddion Dros Dro yn y Cyfarfod Llawn Motion to Amend Standing Order No. 6 in relation to the Temporary Chair of Plenary Meetings

33 Dadl gan Aelodau Unigol o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 11.21(iv): Iechyd Meddwl Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order No. 11.21(iv): Mental Health

57 Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Rheoli Grantiau Welsh Conservatives Debate: Grants Management

87 Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Taliadau Uniongyrchol mewn Gofal Cymdeithasol Welsh Conservatives Debate: Direct Payments in Social Care

114 Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

126 Dadl Fer: Rail Cymru—Rheilffordd y Bobl i Gymru Short Debate: Rail Cymru—A People’s Railway for Wales

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr. Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation has been included.

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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Rosemary Butler) yn y Gadair. The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m.with the Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) in the Chair.

The Presiding Officer: Good afternoon. The Y Llywydd: Prynhawn da. Dyma ddechrau National Assembly for Wales is now in trafodion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. session.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Cefnogaeth i Ofalwyr Support for Carers

1. Mark Drakeford: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 1. Mark Drakeford: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am gefnogaeth i ofalwyr yng statement on support for carers in Wales. Nghymru. OAQ(4)0205(HSS) OAQ(4)0205(HSS)

The Deputy Minister for Children and Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Blant a Social Services (Gwenda Thomas): On 13 Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Gwenda November, I published for consultation a Thomas): Ar 13 Tachwedd, cyhoeddais ar draft of a refreshed carers strategy for Wales. gyfer ymgynghoriad fersiwn ddrafft o The strategy provides a framework for strategaeth gofalwyr ddiwygiedig i Gymru. achieving positive outcomes for carers. The Mae’r strategaeth yn darparu fframwaith ar final version will be published in April 2013, gyfer sicrhau canlyniadau cadarnhaol i in line with the commitment we gave in our ofalwyr. Cyhoeddir y fersiwn derfynol ym programme for government. mis Ebrill 2013, yn unol â’r ymrwymiad a wnaethom yn ein rhaglen lywodraethu.

Mark Drakeford: As you will be aware, the Mark Drakeford: Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r Health and Social Care Committee, in our Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol, yn inquiry into residential care services, has ein hymchwiliad i wasanaethau gofal worked closely with a reference group of preswyl, wedi gweithio’n agos gyda grŵp individuals who are themselves carers of cyfeirio o unigolion sy’n gofalu am bobl hŷn elderly people in the community and now in yn y gymuned a bellach mewn gofal preswyl. residential care. They have impressed on us, Maent wedi pwysleisio, drwy gydol ein throughout our inquiry, the importance of the hymchwiliad, bwysigrwydd y Bil social services Bill in helping to shape gwasanaethau cymdeithasol o ran helpu i services for carers in the future. Can you give lywio gwasanaethau i ofalwyr yn y dyfodol. us an assurance that, when the Bill is Allwch chi roi sicrwydd inni, pan gyhoeddir published, we can look to it to ensure that the y Mesur, y bydd yn sicrhau y caiff interests of carers are properly represented buddiannau gofalwyr eu cynrychioli a’u and protected? diogelu’n briodol?

Gwenda Thomas: I refer Assembly Gwenda Thomas: Cyfeiriaf Aelodau’r Members to my written statement on 12 Cynulliad at fy natganiad ysgrifenedig ar 12 November, outlining measures to promote Tachwedd, yn amlinellu mesurau i hyrwyddo carers’ rights under the social services and hawliau gofalwyr o dan y Bil gwasanaethau wellbeing (Wales) Bill. This means that, for cymdeithasol a lles (Cymru). Mae hyn yn the first time, carers will have equivalent golygu, am y tro cyntaf, y bydd gan ofalwyr rights to those people whom they care for. yr un hawliau â’r bobl hynny y maent yn The proposals will include measures to gofalu amdanynt. Bydd y cynigion yn ensure that local authorities and local health cynnwys mesurau i sicrhau bod awdurdodau boards provide, or arrange the provision of, a lleol a byrddau iechyd lleol yn darparu, neu’n range and level of services, including trefnu i ddarparu, amrywiaeth a lefel o preventative services to carers, that are wasanaethau, gan gynnwys gwasanaethau

3 28/11/2012 accessible within the community, and will ataliol i ofalwyr, sy’n hygyrch o fewn y take account of the carers that you have gymuned, a bydd yn cymryd i ystyriaeth y described this afternoon. gofalwyr a ddisgrifiwyd gennych y prynhawn yma.

Antoinette Sandbach: You will be aware of Antoinette Sandbach: Byddwch yn the excellent example of the Access to Action ymwybodol o’r enghraifft ardderchog o scheme, which supports young carers in gynllun Access to Action, sy’n cefnogi Flintshire. It is a card that allows them to gofalwyr ifanc yn Sir y Fflint. Cerdyn ydyw overcome the daily challenges they sy’n eu galluogi i oresgyn yr heriau dyddiol a experience in the course of caring for their wynebir ganddynt wrth ofalu am eu rhieni. parents. One reoccurring difficulty is to do Un anhawster sy’n codi dro ar ôl tro yw with picking up prescription medications casglu meddyginiaethau presgripsiwn o from pharmacies. Can you confirm what fferyllfeydd. A allwch gadarnhau pa gamau y steps you will take to help young carers with byddwch yn eu cymryd i helpu gofalwyr this specific issue, and what action will you ifanc gyda’r mater penodol hwn, a pha gamau be taking to spread this best practice in y byddwch yn eu cymryd i ledaenu’r arfer Flintshire across Wales? gorau hwn yn Sir y Fflint ledled Cymru?

Gwenda Thomas: That is the essence of Gwenda Thomas: Dyna hanfod yr hyn y what the Bill will do for carers. I am bydd y Bil yn ei wneud i ofalwyr. Mae’r impressed with the ID card scheme, and cynllun cardiau adnabod wedi creu argraff Lindsay Whittle, I believe, brought that up arnaf, a soniodd Lindsay Whittle am hynny, during the last questions to the Minister. I rwy’n credu, yn ystod y cwestiynau diwethaf want the strategy to look at examples such as i’r Gweinidog. Rwyf am i’r strategaeth the Flintshire ID card scheme when the ystyried enghreifftiau megis cynllun cardiau strategy is refreshed, and you will know that I adnabod Sir y Fflint pan gaiff y strategaeth ei have launched a 12-week consultation on the diwygio, a byddwch yn gwybod fy mod wedi refreshing of the strategy. I am sure you, like lansio ymgynghoriad 12 wythnos ar y gwaith others, will want to feed in that good practice o ddiwygio’r strategaeth. Rwy’n siŵr eich in Flintshire. bod chi, fel eraill, yn awyddus i gynnwys yr arfer da hwnnw yn Sir y Fflint.

Lindsay Whittle: How will you monitor the Lindsay Whittle: Sut y byddwch yn monitro extent to which occupational therapists, i ba raddau y mae therapyddion health workers and social workers work galwedigaethol, gweithwyr iechyd a together to provide a more integrated gweithwyr cymdeithasol yn gweithio gyda’i homecare service? gilydd i ddarparu gwasanaeth gofal cartref mwy integredig?

Gwenda Thomas: The Bill will look at all Gwenda Thomas: Bydd y Bil yn ystyried aspects of the future delivery of social pob agwedd ar ddarparu gwasanaethau services. Occupational therapy is something cymdeithasol yn y dyfodol. Mae therapi that I have identified that can perhaps be galwedigaethol yn rhywbeth a nodwyd delivered on a regional basis, and we are gennyf y gellir o bosibl ei ddarparu’n looking at that closely. The Bill will give us a rhanbarthol, ac rydym yn ystyried hynny’n strategic way forward for all of these ofalus. Bydd y Bil yn cynnig ffordd strategol services, and the services that you mentioned ymlaen i bob un o’r gwasanaethau hyn, ac are intrinsic to the way forward and must be mae’r gwasanaethau a grybwyllwyd gennych part of how we develop the Bill and how the yn rhan annatod o hynny a rhaid iddynt fod Bill enables those services to deliver. yn rhan o’r modd rydym yn datblygu’r Bil a sut mae’r Bil yn galluogi’r gwasanaethau hynny i ddarparu.

Lindsay Whittle: I can feel the hand of the Lindsay Whittle: Gallaf deimlo llaw'r

4 28/11/2012 chair, Mark Drakeford, in this question, but cadeirydd, Mark Drakeford, yn y cwestiwn we have not spoken about it, I promise. On hwn, ond nid ydym wedi siarad amdano, the carers strategy for Wales, what guidance rwy’n addo. O ran y strategaeth ar gyfer will you be giving to health boards and local gofalwyr yng Nghymru, pa ganllawiau y authorities on their duty to assess the needs of byddwch yn eu rhoi i fyrddau iechyd ac carers? Until now, as you obviously know, awdurdodau lleol ar eu dyletswydd i asesu assessing the needs of carers was optional, anghenion gofalwyr? Hyd yn hyn, fel y but it will be compulsory, I believe. gwyddoch yn amlwg, roedd asesu anghenion gofalwyr yn ddewisol, ond bydd yn orfodol, rwy’n credu.

Gwenda Thomas: The needs and rights of Gwenda Thomas: Caiff anghenion a carers will be taken forward in the social hawliau gofalwyr eu datblygu yn y Bil services and wellbeing Bill. The carers gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a lles. strategy is an umbrella strategy and will look Strategaeth ymbarél yw’r strategaeth at the needs of carers. It is important that we gofalwyr a bydd yn ystyried anghenion recognise that this strategy has been a huge gofalwyr. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn step forward since it was established in 2000. cydnabod bod y strategaeth hon wedi bod yn However, looking at what we can do now gam enfawr ymlaen ers ei sefydlu yn 2000. with a refreshed carers’ strategy is very Fodd bynnag, mae ystyried yr hyn y gallwn important, and the strategic direction that this ei wneud nawr gyda strategaeth gofalwyr strategy will give, as I have mentioned, is the ddiwygiedig yn bwysig iawn, ac mae’r key to the way forward. The strategy sets out cyfeiriad strategol y bydd y strategaeth hon five areas where we want to achieve positive yn ei roi, fel y soniais, yn allweddol i’r ffordd outcomes, and I will run through those ymlaen. Mae’r strategaeth yn nodi pum maes quickly. They are: promoting carers’ rights lle rydym am sicrhau canlyniadau through new social care legislation, cadarnhaol, a soniaf amdanynt yn gyflym, improving the identification of carers and sef: hyrwyddo hawliau gofalwyr drwy ensuring that they receive appropriate and ddeddfwriaeth gofal cymdeithasol newydd, timely information and advice, supporting gwella ffyrdd o nodi gofalwyr a sicrhau eu young carers and young adult carers up to the bod yn cael gwybodaeth a chyngor priodol ac age of 25, ensuring that all carers get the amserol, cefnogi gofalwyr ifanc a gofalwyr breaks that they need from caring, and sy’n oedolion ifanc hyd at 25 oed, gan supporting carers who work, or who wish to sicrhau bod pob gofalwr yn cael y seibiannau move back into work, and promoting sydd eu hangen arno o ofalu, a chefnogi flexibility among employers. Therefore, it is gofalwyr sy’n gweithio, neu sy’n dymuno quite a wide-ranging strategy, and it is symud yn ôl i waith, a hyrwyddo important now that we feed in to the hyblygrwydd ymhlith cyflogwyr. Felly, consultation. mae’n strategaeth eithaf eang ei chwmpas, ac mae’n bwysig nawr ein bod yn cyfrannu at yr ymgynghoriad.

Triniaeth IVF IVF Treatment

2. Ieuan Wyn Jones: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 2. Ieuan Wyn Jones: Will the Minister make ddatganiad am driniaeth IVF yng Nghymru. a statement on IVF treatment in Wales. OAQ(4)0204(HSS) OAQ(4)0204(HSS)

The Minister for Health and Social Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Services (Lesley Griffiths): All eligible Cymdeithasol (Lesley Griffiths): Mae gan patients in Wales are entitled to receive two bob claf cymwys yng Nghymru yr hawl i gael cycles of IVF funded by the NHS. We are dau gylch o driniaeth IVF a ariennir gan y working with the NHS in Wales to ensure GIG. Rydym yn gweithio gyda’r GIG yng that safe and sustainable services are Nghymru i sicrhau y caiff gwasanaethau provided in Wales for the future. diogel a chynaliadwy eu darparu yng

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Nghymru i’r dyfodol.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Bydd y Gweinidog yn Ieuan Wyn Jones: The Minister will be ymwybodol bod canllawiau’r Sefydliad aware that the National Institute for Health Cenedlaethol dros Iechyd a Rhagoriaeth and Clinical Excellence guidelines in Wales Glinigol yng Nghymru yn datgan y dylai state that patients should have three cycles of cleifion gael tair triniaeth IVF. Ar hyn o bryd, IVF. At present, as the Minister noted, only fel y nododd y Gweinidog, dim ond dau gwrs two cycles are funded. She has suggested, in sy’n cael eu cyllido. Mae hi wedi awgrymu, a letter to me, kindly, that she is considering mewn llythyr i mi, yn garedig iawn, ei bod yn moving from two to three cycles. When will ystyried symud o ddau i dri chwrs. Pryd fydd the Government be in a position to fund those y Llywodraeth mewn sefyllfa i gyllido’r tri three cycles for patients, who, as the Minister chwrs hynny i gleifion, sydd, fel y gŵyr y will know, are waiting for news from the Gweinidog, yn disgwyl am newyddion gan y Government? Llywodraeth?

Lesley Griffiths: The fact that all eligible Lesley Griffiths: Mae’r ffaith bod pob pâr couples are already receiving two cycles of cymwys eisoes yn cael dau gylch o driniaeth IVF on the NHS in Wales is very positive, IVF ar y GIG yng Nghymru yn gadarnhaol particularly if we compare that to the iawn, yn enwedig o gymharu hynny â’r considerable regional variation that exists amrywiad rhanbarthol sylweddol sy’n bodoli elsewhere in the UK. We would like to offer mewn mannau eraill yn y DU. Hoffem people three cycles of IVF in Wales, in line, gynnig tri chylch o IVF i bobl yng Nghymru, as you say, with NICE recommendations. yn unol, fel y dywedwch, ag argymhellion However, we need to work with the NHS in NICE. Fodd bynnag, mae angen inni weithio Wales, and with the Welsh Institute for gyda’r GIG yng Nghymru, a chyda Sefydliad Health and Social Care, to manage competing Cymru dros Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol, i priorities and decide how the money is to be reoli blaenoriaethau croes a phenderfynu sut spent. It is something that is being kept under y caiff yr arian ei wario. Mae’n rhywbeth y regular consideration by the NHS in Wales at mae’r GIG yng Nghymru yn ei ystyried yn present. rheolaidd ar hyn o bryd.

David Rees: What progress is being made on David Rees: Pa gynnydd sy’n cael ei wneud the development of the IVF facility at Neath o ran datblygu’r cyfleuster IVF yn Ysbyty Port Talbot Hospital, and can you indicate Castell-nedd Port Talbot, ac a allwch ddweud what discussions have taken place with the pa drafodaethau sydd wedi’u cynnal gyda’r Human Fertilisation and Embryology Awdurdod Ffrwythloni Dynol ac Embryoleg Authority in relation to licensing for that mewn perthynas â thrwyddedu ar gyfer y facility? cyfleuster hwnnw?

Lesley Griffiths: Just this morning I met Lesley Griffiths: Dim ond y bore yma y Paul Roberts, the chief executive of cyfarfûm â Paul Roberts, prif weithredwr Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Abertawe Bro Health Board, about the new provision that Morgannwg, i drafod y ddarpariaeth newydd we are having in Neath Port Talbot Hospital. rydym yn ei chael yn Ysbyty Castell-nedd The building will be handed over completed Port Talbot. Caiff yr adeilad ei drosglwyddo at the end of this month. However, what is wedi’i gwblhau ddiwedd y mis. Fodd bynnag, critical—and I was pleased to have assurance mae’n hanfodol—ac rwy’n falch o gael from Paul on this matter this morning—is sicrwydd gan Paul o ran y mater hwn y bore that the staff are in place, because we need yma—bod y staff ar waith, oherwydd mae high-quality staff to ensure the success of the angen staff o ansawdd uchel arnom i sicrhau unit. He assured me that an experienced llwyddiant yr uned. Rhoddodd sicrwydd imi embryologist has been appointed. In relation fod embryolegydd profiadol wedi’i benodi. to discussions with HFEA, the next step will Mewn perthynas â thrafodaethau â HFEA, y be to get the licence. Once the building has

6 28/11/2012 been handed over, there will have to be cam nesaf fydd cael y drwydded. Unwaith y meetings and the panel will have to sit in bydd yr adeilad wedi’i drosglwyddo, bydd yn respect of the licence. However, discussions rhaid cynnal cyfarfodydd a bydd yn rhaid i’r are ongoing between officials and ABMU panel eistedd mewn perthynas â’r drwydded. LHB at present. Fodd bynnag, mae trafodaethau yn mynd rhagddynt rhwng swyddogion a Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Abertawe Bro Morgannwg ar hyn o bryd.

Angela Burns: I quite understand the issue Angela Burns: Deallaf y mater yn ymwneud of competing priorities, but I would like to â blaenoriaethau croes, ond hoffwn siarad ar speak up for people who are unable to get ran y bobl na allant gael unrhyw driniaeth o any treatment at all, and those are people who gwbl, sef y rheini y mae angen wyau a need donated eggs. Some of my constituents roddwyd arnynt. Mae rhai o’m hetholwyr have had leukaemia, for example, and do not wedi cael lewcemia, er enghraifft, ac nid oes have any eggs of their own. However, there is ganddynt wyau eu hunain. Fodd bynnag, mae a shortage of donated eggs in Wales, and they prinder wyau a roddwyd yng Nghymru, ac are having a real job in getting through the maent yn cael trafferth wirioneddol wrth NHS gatekeepers to be able to access geisio goresgyn rhwystrau yn y GIG i’w services, literally just over the border, where galluogi i gael gafael ar wasanaethau, yn eggs are available through different centres. llythrennol ychydig dros y ffin, lle mae wyau Therefore, these people are being denied any ar gael drwy ganolfannau gwahanol. Felly, opportunity to have even one IVF cycle. nid yw’r bobl hyn yn cael unrhyw gyfle i gael Would you care to look at this issue, because hyd yn oed un cylch IVF. A fyddech cystal not being able to have this opportunity ag ystyried y mater hwn, oherwydd mae impacts on so many people’s emotional peidio â rhoi’r cyfle hwn yn effeithio ar les wellbeing? emosiynol cynifer o bobl?

Lesley Griffiths: You raise a very important Lesley Griffiths: Rydych wedi codi pwynt point. It is a detailed question, and I will look pwysig iawn. Mae’n gwestiwn manwl, a into it and then write to you. byddaf yn ei ystyried ac yna’n ysgrifennu atoch.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Democrats (Kirsty Williams): We have Cymru (Kirsty Williams): Rydym wedi seen recent figures that show that a growing gweld ffigurau diweddar sy’n dangos bod number of women have to travel outside of nifer cynyddol o fenywod yn gorfod teithio y Wales for IVF treatment. These are women tu allan i Gymru i gael triniaeth IVF. who would previously have been treated at Byddai’r menywod hyn wedi cael eu trin yn the centre in Swansea or in Cardiff. What flaenorol yn y ganolfan yn Abertawe neu yng steps is the Government taking to ensure that Nghaerdydd. Pa gamau y mae’r Llywodraeth women from south Wales do not have to yn eu cymryd i sicrhau nad yw menywod o travel such great distances to receive this dde Cymru yn gorfod teithio pellteroedd treatment? mawr o’r fath i gael y driniaeth hon?

Lesley Griffiths: You will have heard me Lesley Griffiths: Byddwch wedi fy say in my answer to David Rees that we are nghlywed yn dweud wrth ymateb i David getting very close to the completion of the Rees ein bod yn agosáu at gwblhau’r uned yn unit at Neath Port Talbot Hospital and then Ysbyty Castell-nedd Port Talbot, ac yna applying for the licence from HFEA, which wneud cais am y drwydded gan HFEA, a will ensure that we have two centres in south fydd yn sicrhau bod gennym ddwy ganolfan Wales and will give us much more flexibility. yn ne Cymru ac yn rhoi llawer mwy o hyblygrwydd inni.

Kirsty Williams: Perhaps the Minister Kirsty Williams: Efallai y byddai’r

7 28/11/2012 would be good enough to tell this Chamber Gweinidog cystal â dweud wrth y Siambr hon when she expects that centre to go live. It is pryd y mae’n disgwyl y bydd y ganolfan yn no coincidence that some 200 women have weithredol. Nid yw’n gyd-ddigwyddiad bod had to go to Bristol for treatment and tua 200 o fenywod wedi gorfod mynd i Fryste approximately the same number of patients am driniaeth a bod tua’r un nifer o gleifion yn was receiving treatment at the Swansea cael triniaeth yn y ganolfan yn Abertawe pan centre when the Government made the wnaethpwyd y penderfyniad strategol gan y strategic decision to end the contract in Llywodraeth i ddod â’r contract i ben yn Swansea. As a direct result of that, women Abertawe. O ganlyniad uniongyrchol i from south Wales have had to travel further hynny, mae merched o dde Cymru wedi for their treatment. When will those women gorfod teithio ymhellach i gael triniaeth. be able to get treatment at the centre in Neath Pryd bydd y menywod hynny yn gallu cael Port Talbot Hospital and what discussions is triniaeth yn y ganolfan yn Ysbyty Castell- the Minister having to increase capacity at nedd Port Talbot a pha drafodaethau y mae’r Cardiff, which is also causing problems for Gweinidog yn eu cael i gynyddu capasiti ac women in south Wales? yng Nghaerdydd, sydd hefyd yn peri problemau i fenywod yn ne Cymru?

Lesley Griffiths: We anticipate that patients Lesley Griffiths: Rydym yn rhagweld y will start to receive treatment in the Neath bydd cleifion yn dechrau cael triniaeth yn Port Talbot unit on 1 April next year. I am uned Castell-nedd Port Talbot ar 1 Ebrill y aware, as you are, of the difficulties in flwyddyn nesaf. Rwy’n ymwybodol, fel y Cardiff. Part of the problem with the levels of byddwch chithau, o’r anawsterau yng activity that we have been able to have in Nghaerdydd. Rhan o’r broblem o ran lefel y Cardiff was due to restrictions placed on the gweithgarwch y bu’n bosibl ei gyflawni yng unit by HFEA. However, as I said, I am very Nghaerdydd oedd cyfyngiadau a osodwyd ar hopeful that, once the Neath Port Talbot unit yr uned gan HFEA. Fodd bynnag, fel y goes live on 1 April, we will be able to dywedais, fy ngobaith yw, unwaith y bydd address those issues. uned Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn weithredol ar 1 Ebrill, y byddwn yn gallu mynd i’r afael â’r materion hynny.

Cyllido Ymatebwyr Cymunedau yn Funding for Community First Responders Gyntaf

3. William Graham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 3. William Graham: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am gyllido Ymatebwyr statement on the funding of Community First Cymunedau yn Gyntaf. OAQ(4)0208(HSS) Responders. OAQ(4)0208(HSS)

Lesley Griffiths: Funding arrangements for Lesley Griffiths: Cyfrifoldeb community first responders are the Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gwasanaethau responsibility of the Welsh Ambulance Ambiwlans Cymru yw trefniadau ariannu Services NHS Trust. ymatebwyr cyntaf cymunedol.

William Graham: Could you help me with a William Graham: A allech fy helpu gydag particular anomaly, which has been brought anghysondeb penodol y tynnwyd fy sylw ato? to my attention? First responders within the Caiff ymatebwyr cyntaf o fewn Gwasanaeth South Wales Fire and Rescue Service are Tân ac Achub De Cymru eu hariannu, tra bod funded, whereas volunteers, who are yn rhaid ariannu gwirfoddolwyr, sydd wrthi’n currently being recruited in Blackwood as cael eu recriwtio yn y Coed Duon fel community first responders, have to be ymatebwyr cyntaf cymunedol, drwy godi funded by raising money publicly. Could you arian cyhoeddus. A allech fy helpu gyda help me with that? hynny?

Lesley Griffiths: There is a clear distinction Lesley Griffiths: Mae gwahaniaeth clir

8 28/11/2012 between retained fire fighters, co-responders rhwng diffoddwyr tân wrth gefn, cyd- and community first responders. Community ymatebwyr ac ymatebwyr cyntaf cymunedol. first responders are volunteers and are not Gwirfoddolwyr yw ymatebwyr cyntaf paid. Fire service co-responders are retained cymunedol ac ni chânt eu talu. Diffoddwyr firefighters and so they are funded at around tân wrth gefn yw cyd-ymatebwyr y £96 for each call-out. gwasanaeth tân ac felly cânt eu hariannu ar sail tua £96 am bob galwad.

Peter Black: In relation to co-responders, Peter Black: O ran cyd-ymatebwyr, mae there is an issue in Gower, in my region, problem yn ardal Gŵyr, sef fy rhanbarth i, lle where part-time firefighters are, in effect, mae diffoddwyr tân rhan amser yn treulio spending more time as co-responders on mwy o amser mewn gwirionedd fel cyd- behalf of the ambulance service than they are ymatebwyr ar ran y gwasanaeth ambiwlans fighting fires. In some instances, they find nag y maent yn ymladd tân. Mewn rhai that they have to wait over 45 minutes, on achosion, maent yn canfod bod yn rhaid what are, in effect, category A calls, for iddynt aros dros 45 munud, yn ystod yr hyn ambulances to come and collect the patient sydd mewn gwirionedd yn alwadau categori and to deal with the emergency to which they A, am ambiwlans i ddod i gasglu’r claf ac i have been called out. Have any of these ddelio â’r argyfwng y cawsant eu galw iddo. issues been drawn to your attention and, if A dynnwyd eich sylw at unrhyw un o’r not, could you raise them with the ambulance materion hyn ac, os na wnaed hynny, a allech trust? eu codi gyda’r ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans?

Lesley Griffiths: They have been drawn to Lesley Griffiths: Tynnwyd fy sylw atynt ac my attention and many of the issues to which mae llawer o’r materion y cyfeiriwch atynt you refer have been resolved. The Welsh wedi’u datrys. Cynhaliodd Ymddiriedolaeth Ambulance Services NHS Trust held GIG Gwasanaethau Ambiwlans Cymru discussions with the fire service and co- drafodaethau gyda’r gwasanaeth tân a chyd- responders on improving mobilisation times ymatebwyr ar wella amserau mobileiddio ac and then restricted use of calls categorised as yna ddefnydd cyfyngedig o alwadau a gaiff immediately life-threatening, so I believe that eu categoreiddio’n rhai sy’n peryglu bywyd, they have been resolved. felly credaf eu bod wedi cael eu datrys.

Rhoi Gwaed Donate Blood

4. Christine Chapman: Beth y mae 4. Christine Chapman: What is the Welsh Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i annog Government doing to encourage more people rhagor o bobl yng Nghymru i roi gwaed. to donate blood in Wales. OAQ(4)0202(HSS) OAQ(4)0202(HSS)

Lesley Griffiths: Raising awareness of the Lesley Griffiths: Mae codi ymwybyddiaeth importance of blood donation and the work o bwysigrwydd rhoi gwaed a gwaith of blood services is vital in encouraging new gwasanaethau gwaed yn hanfodol wrth annog donors and persuading previous donors to rhoddwyr newydd a darbwyllo rhoddwyr donate again. We are supportive of the blaenorol i roi eto. Rydym yn cefnogi ongoing efforts of the blood services in ymdrechion parhaus y gwasanaethau gwaed Wales in raising awareness of this important yng Nghymru yn codi ymwybyddiaeth o’r issue. mater pwysig hwn.

Christine Chapman: I welcome the steps Christine Chapman: Croesawaf y camau that are being taken to modernise the service sy’n cael eu cymryd i foderneiddio’r and to offer incentives for people to give gwasanaeth ac i gynnig cymhellion i bobl roi blood. In the future, there will be an gwaed. Yn y dyfodol, bydd mwy o alw am increased demand for blood, due to an ageing waed, o ganlyniad i boblogaeth sy’n population, yet only 5% of the eligible heneiddio, ond eto dim ond 5% o’r

9 28/11/2012 population donates blood. There are reports boblogaeth gymwys sy’n rhoi gwaed. Ceir that the number of young blood donors, those adroddiadau bod nifer y rhoddwyr gwaed aged from 17 to 24, has fallen by 20% over ifanc, sef y rheini rhwng 17 a 24 oed, wedi the past decade, which has led to concerns of gostwng 20% dros y degawd diwethaf, sydd a generation gap in blood donation. What wedi arwain at bryderon am fwlch rhwng y discussions are you having, Minister, with the cenedlaethau o ran rhoi gwaed. Pa Minister for Education and Skills on drafodaethau ydych yn eu cael, Weinidog, promoting and encouraging younger people gyda’r Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau to give blood? ynghylch hyrwyddo ac annog pobl iau i roi gwaed?

Lesley Griffiths: I think that it is actually 6% Lesley Griffiths: Credaf mai 6% o’r of the eligible population in Wales that boblogaeth gymwys yng Nghymru sy’n rhoi donates blood. Some give a few times and gwaed mewn gwirionedd. Mae rhai yn rhoi others give many times. There is always a ychydig o weithiau ac eraill yn rhoi sawl need to refresh and maintain the number of gwaith. Mae angen adnewyddu a chynnal donors; that is important. It is essential that nifer y rhoddwyr bob amser; mae hynny’n new people register, and the issue you raise bwysig. Mae’n hanfodol bod pobl newydd yn about young people is very important. There cofrestru, ac mae’r mater a godwch am bobl are some very good campaigns being run at ifanc yn bwysig iawn. Mae rhai the moment by blood services in Wales. NHS ymgyrchoedd da iawn yn cael eu cynnal ar Blood and Transplant, which supplies north hyn o bryd gan wasanaethau gwaed yng Wales, is running a campaign to generate Nghymru. Mae Gwasanaeth Gwaed a 100,000 new donors in 100 days, which Thrawsblaniadau’r GIG, sy’n cyflenwi particularly focuses on attracting younger gogledd Cymru, yn cynnal ymgyrch i geisio blood donors by involving young television cael 100,000 o roddwyr newydd mewn 100 soap stars and people from the world of diwrnod, sy’n canolbwyntio’n benodol ar fashion. The Welsh Blood Service has also ddenu rhoddwyr gwaed iau drwy gynnwys been working to raise awareness of blood sêr operâu sebon ifanc a phobl o fyd ffasiwn. donation in primary schools through Mae Gwasanaeth Gwaed Cymru hefyd wedi competitions and meeting sports stars, which bod yn gweithio i godi ymwybyddiaeth o builds up awareness in the very young. I hope bwysigrwydd rhoi gwaed mewn ysgolion that that will mean that more people sign up cynradd drwy gynnal cystadlaethau a chwrdd when they reach the age of 17. â sêr o’r byd chwaraeon, sy’n codi ymwybyddiaeth ymhlith pobl ifanc iawn. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd hynny’n golygu y bydd mwy o bobl yn cofrestru pan fyddant yn troi’n 17 oed.

1.45 p.m.

Suzy Davies: The current rules prevent Suzy Davies: Mae’r rheolau presennol yn anyone who has received a blood transfusion atal unrhyw un sydd wedi cael trallwysiad or blood products since 1980, I think, or a gwaed neu gynhyrchion gwaed ers 1980, long time ago, anyway, from donating blood, rwy’n credu, neu amser maith yn ôl, beth and that means that many who might want to bynnag, rhag rhoi gwaed, ac mae hynny’n give blood cannot do so. Given improved golygu na all llawer o bobl a all fod am roi screening since then, would you discuss gwaed wneud hynny. O ystyried prosesau lifting this restriction with the UK sgrinio gwell ers hynny, a fyddech cystal â Government, please, and reassure us that any thrafod codi’r cyfyngiad hwn gyda ongoing concerns regarding contamination Llywodraeth y DU, a rhoi sicrwydd inni na will not have any implications for the organ chaiff unrhyw bryderon parhaus ynghylch donation Bill? halogi unrhyw oblygiadau mewn perthynas â’r Bil rhoi organau?

10 28/11/2012

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, I could discuss that. Lesley Griffiths: Gwnaf, gallwn drafod We receive our advice on screening from a hynny. Cawn ein cyngor ar sgrinio gan committee that serves the whole of the UK. It bwyllgor sy’n gwasanaethu’r DU gyfan. Ni has not been raised with me before, but I can chodwyd y mater hwn gyda mi o’r blaen, ond certainly look at that. gallaf yn sicr ei ystyried.

Simon Thomas: As we move from a system Simon Thomas: Wrth inni symud o system o of voluntary organ donation to one of roi organau’n wirfoddol i un o ganiatâd presumed consent, do you feel the need to tybiedig, a ydych yn teimlo bod angen cynnal make an assessment and some kind of review asesiad a rhyw fath o adolygiad o’r modd y of how people’s perceptions of giving blood gall canfyddiadau pobl o roi gwaed yn voluntarily may change as the relationship wirfoddol newid wrth i’r gydberthynas o ran around presumed consent on organ donation caniatâd tybiedig ar gyfer rhoi organau changes? It strikes me that people may have a newid? Ymddengys imi y gall fod gan bobl different view of voluntary donation when farn wahanol ynghylch rhoi’n wirfoddol pan you change the situation legally as regards fyddwch yn newid y sefyllfa’n gyfreithiol organs. Does that concern you, and will you mewn perthynas ag organau. A yw hynny’n undertake at least to study that? peri pryder ichi, ac a fyddwch yn cynnal o leiaf un astudiaeth?

Lesley Griffiths: It does concern me. You Lesley Griffiths: Mae’n peri pryder imi. will be aware that I will be introducing the Byddwch yn ymwybodol y byddaf yn human transplantation (Wales) Bill to the cyflwyno Bil trawsblaniadau dynol (Cymru) Assembly next week. If it is raised with me, I i’r Cynulliad yr wythnos nesaf. Os caiff ei will take it very seriously. I do not think that godi gyda mi, byddaf yn ei gymryd o ddifrif. it was raised during the consultation, but I am Ni chredaf iddo gael ei godi yn ystod yr working my way through those responses ymgynghoriad, ond rwyf wrthi’n gweithio ready to bring the Bill forward. Therefore, drwy’r ymatebion hynny er mwyn that would concern me and I would seriously cyflwyno’r Bil ynghynt. Felly, byddai look at it. hynny’n peri pryder imi a hoffwn ei ystyried o ddifrif.

Gwasanaethau’r GIG yn y Gogledd NHS Services in North Wales

5. Antoinette Sandbach: A wnaiff y 5. Antoinette Sandbach: Will the Minister Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am provide an update on her plans for NHS ei chynlluniau ar gyfer gwasanaethau’r GIG services in North Wales. OAQ(4)0207(HSS) yng Ngogledd Cymru. OAQ(4)0207(HSS)

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, our plans and Lesley Griffiths: Gwnaf. Gellir gweld ein priorities for the health service for the whole cynlluniau a’n blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y of Wales can be found in our programme for gwasanaeth iechyd i Gymru gyfan yn ein government and ‘Together for Health’. rhaglen lywodraethu a ‘Law yn Llaw at Iechyd’.

Antoinette Sandbach: Thank you for that Antoinette Sandbach: Diolch ichi am yr answer, Minister. You will have read the ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Byddwch wedi comments from the Royal College of Nursing darllen y sylwadau gan y Coleg Nyrsio in Wales and from the British Medical Brenhinol yng Nghymru a Chymdeithas Association that exporting level 3 neonatal Feddygol Prydain sy’n nodi y bydd allforio services from north Wales over the border gwasanaethau newydd-enedigol lefel 3 o will increase infant mortality and lead to ân ogledd Cymru dros y ffin yn cynyddu nifer y exodus of skilled doctors and nurses. Given marwolaethau ymhlith babanod ac yn golygu the £19 million black hole in the health y bydd meddygon a nyrsys medrus yn symud board’s budget, could you confirm how much i ffwrdd. O ystyried y twll du £19 miliwn yng

11 28/11/2012 of the decision to close north Wales’s nghyllideb y bwrdd iechyd, a allech neonatal intensive care level 3 service was gadarnhau faint o’r penderfyniad i gau driven by the need to fill that funding deficit? gwasanaeth gofal dwys newydd-enedigol lefel 3 y gogledd oedd yn seiliedig ar yr angen i fynd i’r afael â’r diffyg ariannol hwnnw?

Lesley Griffiths: I do not think that it is Lesley Griffiths: Ni chredaf ei fod yn driven by financial aspects at all. What is seiliedig ar agweddau ariannol o gwbl. Yr most important is that the services provided hyn sydd bwysicaf yw bod y gwasanaethau a are safe, sustainable and of a high quality. I ddarperir yn ddiogel, yn gynaliadwy ac o know that there are many issues of concern ansawdd uchel. Gwn fod llawer o faterion o around the neonatal proposals of Betsi bryder ynghylch cynigion newydd-enedigol Cadwaladr University Local Health Board. Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi We have only just reached the end of the Cadwaladr. Dim ond newydd ddod i ben y consultation period. The board is looking at mae’r cyfnod ymgynghori. Mae’r Bwrdd yn the responses, and I hope that it will address ystyried yr ymatebion, a gobeithio y bydd yn those concerns as we go through the process. mynd i’r afael â’r pryderon hynny wrth i’r broses fynd rhagddi.

Vaughan Gething: One of the challenges, Vaughan Gething: Un o’r heriau, nid yn not just in north Wales but across the rest of unig yn y gogledd ond ar draws gweddill Wales, is how the NHS manages the interface Cymru, yw’r modd y mae’r GIG yn rheoli’r between different branches of primary care, rhyngwyneb rhwng canghennau gwahanol o and there has been a particular experience ofal sylfaenol, a chafwyd profiad penodol yn recently in respect of the relationship ddiweddar o ran y gydberthynas rhwng between GPs and community pharmacies. meddygon teulu a fferyllfeydd cymunedol. One challenge is access to a common patient Un her yw’r gallu i gael gafael ar gofnod record and the IT platform needed to provide cyffredinol ar gyfer cleifion a’r llwyfan TG that. Can you confirm the current situation as sydd ei hangen i ddarparu hynny. A allwch regards actually reaching a position where gadarnhau’r sefyllfa bresennol o ran cyrraedd there is this common platform, to enable the sefyllfa lle ceir llwyfan cyffredin o’r fath proper sharing of a patient’s records so that mewn gwirionedd, er mwyn gallu rhannu primary care services can talk to each other cofnodion cleifion yn briodol fel y gall properly and achieve shared objectives? gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol siarad â’i gilydd yn briodol a chyflawni amcanion a rennir?

Lesley Griffiths: The interface that we want Lesley Griffiths: Mae’r rhyngwyneb rydym to see between secondary and primary care am ei weld rhwng gofal eilaidd a gofal relies completely on the IT system in certain sylfaenol yn dibynnu’n gyfan gwbl ar y areas. It is important that we get this right. system TG mewn meysydd penodol. Mae’n We have made a huge amount of progress, bwysig cael hyn yn iawn. Rydym wedi and you will have heard me say many times gwneud cynnydd enfawr, a byddwch wedi fy how important I think it is. The fact that we nghlywed droeon yn dweud pa mor bwysig are rolling out the minor ailments scheme and yw hynny yn fy marn i. Mae’r ffaith ein bod that we have a pilot scheme starting in yn cyflwyno’r cynllun mân anhwylderau a pharmacies—and people will have to be bod gennym gynllun peilot yn dechrau mewn registered with a pharmacist in the same way fferyllfeydd—a bydd yn rhaid i bobl fod as with the GP in order to take part—is wedi’u cofrestru â fferyllydd yn yr un modd â important and is a key step forward. There is meddyg teulu er mwyn cymryd rhan—yn also My Health Online, which is an online bwysig ac yn gam allweddol ymlaen. Ceir system that patients can use to book hefyd Fy Iechyd Ar-lein, sy’n system ar-lein appointments with their GP, to request repeat y gall cleifion ei defnyddio i drefnu prescriptions, and to update their general apwyntiadau gyda’u meddyg teulu, er mwyn

12 28/11/2012 details, for instance if they change address. It gwneud cais am bresgripsiynau ailadrodd, ac is important that we get as many patients as i ddiweddaru eu manylion cyffredinol, er possible on to that system in a short space of enghraifft os ydynt yn newid cyfeiriad. time. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cael cymaint o gleifion ag y bo modd ar y system honno mewn cyfnod byr o amser.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Weinidog, a ydych yn Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Minister, do you cytuno â bwrdd iechyd Betsi Cadwaladr sydd agree with the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, wedi mynegi gofidiau sylweddol am y which has expressed significant concerns trafferthion ar yr A55 yn ddiweddar ac effaith about the difficulties along the A55 recently ddifrifol hynny ar wasanaethau iechyd ar and the serious impact of that on health draws y gogledd ac ar wasanaethau services across north Wales and particularly ambiwlans yn enwedig? Os ydych yn cytuno, on ambulance services? If you do agree, is onid yw hynny’n rheswm arall i gadw that not another reason for retaining neonatal gwasanaethau gofal dwys i fabanod newydd- intensive care services in north Wales, rather anedig yng ngogledd Cymru, yn hytrach na’u than moving them to north-west England? symud i ogledd-orllewin Lloegr?

Lesley Griffiths: Severe weather obviously Lesley Griffiths: Mae tywydd difrifol yn has an impact on people’s ability to get to amlwg yn effeithio ar allu pobl i fynd i’r work, on the ability of patients to access gwaith, ar allu cleifion i gael gafael ar health services, and on the ambulances, as wasanaethau iechyd, yn ogystal â’r well. I have discussed it with my colleague, ambiwlansys. Rwyf wedi trafod y mater Carl Sargeant, but transport has to be looked gyda’m cyd-Aelod, Carl Sargeant, ond mae’n at in relation to reconfiguration, and that has rhaid ystyried cludiant mewn perthynas ag been done. When the reconfiguration plans ad-drefnu, ac mae hynny wedi’i wneud. Pan come to me at the end of the process, I will gaf y cynlluniau ad-drefnu ar ddiwedd y also have to look very closely at that. broses, bydd yn rhaid imi hefyd ystyried hynny’n ofalus iawn.

Aled Roberts: Minister, in response to Aled Roberts: Weinidog, mewn ymateb i questions on 24 October, you indicated that gwestiynau ar 24 Hydref, dywedasoch eich you had asked for a review to be undertaken bod wedi gofyn am adolygiad o’r meini of the body mass index criteria for bariatric prawf mynegai màs y corff ar gyfer surgery. The Welsh Medical Committee llawdriniaeth bariatrig. Dengys cofnodion minutes for the meeting on 20 July indicate Pwyllgor Meddygol Cymru ar gyfer y that none of its recommendations in response cyfarfod ar 20 Gorffennaf nad aethpwyd i’r to the obesity report had been addressed, afael ag un o’i argymhellion mewn ymateb which included a review of that BMI index i’r adroddiad gordewdra, a oedd yn cynnwys and also the provision of a bariatric unit in adolygu’r mynegai BMI hwnnw a hefyd north Wales. Are you committed to meeting ddarparu uned bariatrig yng ngogledd Cymru. the recommendations of that committee? A ydych yn ymrwymedig i gyflawni argymhellion y pwyllgor hwnnw?

Lesley Griffiths: I mentioned to you that I Lesley Griffiths: Soniais wrthych fy mod have had discussions with the Welsh Institute wedi cael trafodaethau ag Athrofa Iechyd a for Health and Social Care about the criteria Gofal Cymdeithasol Cymru ynglŷn â’r meini for BMI, because it needs to be looked at, as prawf ar gyfer BMI, gan fod angen ei it is a very high bar. If bariatric surgery is ystyried. Os mai llawdriniaeth bariatrig yw’r what consultants say is the best thing for their peth gorau i’w cleifion ym marn patients, we need to be able to offer that ymgynghorwyr, mae angen inni allu cynnig y service. I am also looking at the gwasanaeth hwnnw. Rwyf hefyd yn ystyried recommendations, and I will make an yr argymhellion, a byddaf yn gwneud announcement in due course. cyhoeddiad maes o law.

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Mark Drakeford: Minister, anyone Mark Drakeford: Weinidog, bydd unrhyw following the news today will have seen the un sy’n dilyn y newyddion heddiw wedi close attention being paid to the mental gweld y sylw manwl sy’n cael ei roi i’r ddadl health debate to be held here in the Chamber ar iechyd meddwl a gynhelir yma yn y later this afternoon. In north Wales, as in the Siambr yn ddiweddarach y prynhawn yma. rest of the country, plans for meeting the Yn y gogledd, fel yng ngweddill y wlad, mae needs of mental health service users are cynlluniau ar gyfer diwallu anghenion vitally important. Will you join me in defnyddwyr gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn congratulating every one of the four hanfodol bwysig. A wnewch chi ymuno â mi Assembly Members who have sponsored i longyfarch pob un o’r pedwar Aelod today’s debate on doing so in a way that Cynulliad sydd wedi noddi dadl heddiw am ensures that we are able to discuss mental ill wneud hynny mewn ffordd sy’n sicrhau y health not as something that affects other gallwn drafod salwch meddwl, nid fel people but as something that can touch the rhywbeth sy’n effeithio ar bobl eraill, ond fel lives of any one of us in any part of Wales? rhywbeth a all gyffwrdd bywydau unrhyw un ohonom mewn unrhyw ran o Gymru?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, I join you in that. I Lesley Griffiths: Gwnaf, ymunaf â chi i think that the four Members are extremely wneud hynny. Credaf fod y pedwar Aelod yn brave. We are addressing stigma and hynod o ddewr. Rydym yn mynd i’r afael â discrimination in relation to mental ill health stigma a gwahaniaethu mewn perthynas â and, sadly, they are alive and well in Wales, salwch meddwl ac, yn anffodus, maent yn and we have to tackle that. We have a good fyw ac yn iach yng Nghymru, ac mae’n rhaid story to tell, and by standing up and saying so inni fynd i’r afael â hynny. Mae gennym stori in the Chamber, those four Members will do dda i’w hadrodd, a thrwy sefyll i fyny a a great deal of good. gwneud hynny yn y Siambr, bydd y pedwar Aelod hynny’n gwneud llawer iawn o les.

Ymddiriedolaeth Ambiwlans Cymru The Welsh Ambulance Trust

6. Jocelyn Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 6. Jocelyn Davies: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer statement on her priorities for the Welsh Ymddiriedolaeth Ambiwlans Cymru. Ambulance Trust. OAQ(4)0198(HSS) OAQ(4)0198(HSS)

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, I expect the Welsh Lesley Griffiths: Gwnaf, disgwyliaf i Ambulance Services NHS Trust to work in Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gwasanaethau partnership with local health boards to deliver Ambiwlans Cymru weithio mewn the best outcomes for patients who require partneriaeth â byrddau iechyd lleol i sicrhau’r their services. canlyniadau gorau i gleifion y mae angen eu gwasanaethau arnynt.

Jocelyn Davies: Your manifesto pledged that Jocelyn Davies: Roedd eich maniffesto’n if you were returned to office, ambulances addo, pe byddech yn cael eich ailethol, y would respond more quickly to patients byddai gwasanaethau ambiwlans yn ymateb suffering strokes, heart attacks and major yn gynt i gleifion sy’n dioddef strôc, trawiad trauma. Bearing in mind that Peter Black has ar y galon a thrawma difrifol. O gofio bod just told us that emergency responders are Peter Black newydd ddweud wrthym fod waiting 45 minutes for ambulances to arrive ymatebwyr brys yn aros 45 munud i at emergency events, can you demonstrate ambiwlansys gyrraedd digwyddiadau brys, a any progress on this pledge? allwch ddangos unrhyw gynnydd o ran yr addewid hwn?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes. It is very easy to Lesley Griffiths: Gallaf. Mae’n hawdd iawn

14 28/11/2012 knock the ambulances, and we often hear of beirniadu’r ambiwlansys, ac rydym yn aml times when people wait for far too long for yn clywed am adegau pan fydd pobl yn aros ambulances. However, it is important that we llawer rhy hir am ambiwlans. Fodd bynnag, recognise that the trust narrowly missed the mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cydnabod bod yr 65% national target for the last four years, ymddiriedolaeth ond wedi methu o drwch which is not good enough and we need to do blewyn â chyflawni’r targed cenedlaethol o more, and that is one of the reasons why I 65% ar gyfer y pedair blynedd diwethaf. Nid have announced a ministerial review of the yw hynny’n ddigon da, ac mae angen inni Welsh ambulance NHS trust. It is facing wneud mwy, ac mae hynny’n un o’r increased pressure and we have only to look rhesymau pam rwyf wedi cyhoeddi adolygiad at the numbers to see that. There are factors gweinidogol o ymddiriedolaeth GIG such as our ageing population, increased gwasanaethau ambiwlans Cymru. Mae’n demand levels, and lost ambulance hours, wynebu pwysau cynyddol a dim ond edrych which have been reduced—it was raised ar y ffigurau sydd angen inni ei wneud i weld yesterday in the Chamber, and I now have the hynny. Mae ffactorau megis ein poblogaeth figures in front of me, and we are making sy’n heneiddio, galw cynyddol, ac oriau progress. However, it is important that we ambiwlans a gollwyd, sydd wedi lleihau— have this review, because there are areas that codwyd y mater hwnnw ddoe yn y Siambr, ac concern me, and I will be making an mae gennyf nawr y ffigurau o’m blaen, ac announcement about the review by the end of rydym yn gwneud cynnydd. Fodd bynnag, this week. mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cynnal yr adolygiad hwn, oherwydd mae meysydd sy’n peri pryder imi, a byddaf yn gwneud cyhoeddiad am yr adolygiad erbyn diwedd yr wythnos hon.

David Rees: Minister, we are all aware that David Rees: Weinidog, rydym i gyd yn ambulance performance figures are affected ymwybodol bod oedi mewn adrannau by delays in accident and emergency damweiniau ac achosion brys yn effeithio ar departments. What action is the Welsh ffigurau perfformiad gwasanaethau Government taking to monitor the delivery of ambiwlans. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth A&E services at hospitals to ensure that Cymru yn eu cymryd i fonitro gwasanaethau ambulances are not delayed unnecessarily, adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys thus becoming temporarily unavailable to the mewn ysbytai er mwyn sicrhau na chaiff trust? gwasanaethau ambiwlans eu hoedi’n ddiangen, a thrwy hynny nad ydynt ar gael dros dro i’r ymddiriedolaeth?

Lesley Griffiths: That is a very important Lesley Griffiths: Mae hwnnw’n fater pwysig issue, and we do not want to see ambulances iawn, ac nid ydym am weld gwasanaethau being delayed because if they are outside ambiwlans yn cael eu hoedi, oherwydd os A&E departments, they are not out there. ydynt y tu allan i adrannau damweiniau ac That is continually monitored, and we will achosion brys, ni allant wneud eu gwaith. also look at that as part of the review. Caiff hyn ei fonitro’n barhaus, a byddwn hefyd yn ystyried hynny fel rhan o’r adolygiad.

William Graham: Minister, I think that you William Graham: Weinidog, credaf eich have slightly missed the point of what we are bod wedi camddeall yr hyn rydym yn ceisio trying to tell you. We have no complaint ei ddweud wrthych. Nid oes gennym unrhyw about the ambulance service itself. In fact, all gwyn am y gwasanaeth ambiwlans ei hun. Yn Members here would pay tribute to the wir, byddai pob Aelod yma yn talu teyrnged wonderful work that it does. Our concern is i’r gwaith gwych y mae’n ei wneud. Ein that you do not seem to give the trust pryder yw yr ymddengys nad ydych yn rhoi adequate funds to respond to the targets that digon o arian i’r ymddiriedolaeth i ymateb i’r

15 28/11/2012 you have set. targedau a osodwyd gennych.

Lesley Griffiths: As you are aware, the Lesley Griffiths: Fel y gwyddoch, ariennir y ambulance service receives its funding from gwasanaeth ambiwlans gan y byrddau iechyd, the health boards, but I do want to look at this ond rwy’n awyddus i ystyried hyn yn yr in the review, because there has been some adolygiad, oherwydd bu rhywfaint o criticism about the way in which it is funded. feirniadaeth am y ffordd y caiff ei ariannu. I recently made £10 million available for Yn ddiweddar, dyrennais £10 miliwn ar gyfer unscheduled care, of which £1 million has gofal heb ei drefnu, y mae £1 filiwn ohono been given to the trust for the delivery of wedi’i roi i’r ymddiriedolaeth er mwyn improvement proposals and to mitigate the cyflawni cynigion gwella a lleihau’r pwysau increasing pressures that it faces. cynyddol a wynebir ganddi.

William Graham: Thank you for your William Graham: Diolch ichi am eich ateb, answer, Minister, but the facts speak for Weinidog, ond mae’r ffeithiau’n siarad themselves. In my region, not one of five drostynt eu hunain. Yn fy rhanbarth i, nid authorities has 65% of calls responded to ymatebir i 65% o’r galwadau o fewn wyth within eight minutes. In fact, in Torfaen, it munud yn unrhyw un o’r pum awdurdod. Yn was as bad as just over 50%. The situation is wir, yn Nhor-faen, roedd cynddrwg â dim not improving. Your review is urgently ond ychydig dros 50%. Nid yw’r sefyllfa’n needed. I urge you to make the gwella. Mae angen eich adolygiad ar fyrder. recommendations from that available as soon Fe’ch anogaf i gyhoeddi’r argymhellion cyn as possible. gynted ag y bo modd.

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, I agree, and that is Lesley Griffiths: Rwy’n cytuno, a dyna pam why I have set up the ministerial review. I rwyf wedi sefydlu adolygiad gweinidogol. received the terms of reference to look at Cefais y cylch gorchwyl i’w ddarllen heddiw. today. I am in the process of appointing the Rwyf yn y broses o benodi’r cadeirydd, a chair, and I hope to make a statement within gobeithiaf wneud datganiad o fewn y 24 awr the next 24 hours. Many aspects of the nesaf. Bydd angen edrych ar sawl agwedd ar ambulance service will need to be looked at y gwasanaeth ambiwlans o fewn y cylch within those terms of reference. gorchwyl hwnnw.

Kirsty Williams: Figures released today Kirsty Williams: Mae ffigurau a ryddhawyd show that the ambulance trust has missed its heddiw yn dangos bod yr ymddiriedolaeth targets for the fifth month in a row. The ambiwlans wedi methu â chyflawni ei Welsh average is now less than 60% of calls thargedau am y pumed mis yn olynol. Mae being responded to within eight minutes. The canran gyfartalog y galwadau yr ymatebir lowest figure is in the constituency of the iddynt o fewn wyth munud bellach yn llai na First Minister himself, where only 50% of 60% yng Nghymru. Mae’r ffigur isaf yn ambulances meet their target response time. etholaeth y Prif Weinidog ei hun, lle mai dim In answer to Jocelyn Davies, you said that ond 50% o’r ambiwlansys sy’n cyrraedd eu you were making progress. Can you explain hamser ymateb targed. Mewn ymateb i exactly where, given that you have missed Jocelyn Davies, dywedasoch eich bod yn your own targets for five months in a row? gwneud cynnydd. A allwch esbonio ble yn union, o ystyried eich bod wedi methu â chyflawni eich targedau eich hun am bum mis yn olynol?

Lesley Griffiths: I think that we have to Lesley Griffiths: Credaf fod yn rhaid inni recognise that the majority of patients are gydnabod bod ambiwlans yn cyrraedd y rhan reached by an ambulance within the target fwyaf o gleifion o fewn yr amserau targed, er times, despite the fact that the service gwaethaf y ffaith bod y gwasanaeth yn receives 30,000 calls every month. That is to derbyn 30,000 o alwadau bob mis. Mae be encouraged and the service is to be hynny i’w hannog a dylid llongyfarch y

16 28/11/2012 congratulated on the fact that the majority of gwasanaeth am y ffaith ei fod yn cyrraedd y patients are reached within the target time. mwyafrif o gleifion o fewn yr amser targed. You need to look at this in context rather than Mae angen ichi ystyried hyn yn ei gyd- take it out of context. I have said that I am destun. Rwyf wedi dweud fy mod yn pryderu concerned about the performance in parts, am agweddau ar berfformiad, a dyna pam and that is why I have set up the review. rwyf wedi sefydlu’r adolygiad.

Blaenoriaethau (Gorllewin Cymru) Priorities (West Wales)

7. Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 7. Paul Davies: Will the Minister make a ddatganiad am ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer statement on her priorities for west Wales for gorllewin Cymru ar gyfer y deuddeg mis the next twelve months. OAQ(4)0196(HSS) nesaf. OAQ(4)0196(HSS)

Lesley Griffiths: Our plans and priorities for Lesley Griffiths: Gellir gweld ein cynlluniau the health service for the whole of Wales can a’n blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y gwasanaeth be found in our programme for government iechyd i Gymru gyfan yn ein rhaglen and ‘Together for Health’. lywodraethu a ‘Law yn Llaw at Iechyd’.

Paul Davies: I am sure that one of your Paul Davies: Rwy’n siŵr mai un o’ch priorities, Minister, is to ensure that NHS blaenoriaethau, Weinidog, yw sicrhau bod services are running effectively at all times gwasanaethau’r GIG yn cael eu rhedeg yn and that includes the out-of-hours GP service. effeithiol bob amser ac mae hynny’n I have been contacted recently by a cynnwys gwasanaethau meddygon teulu y tu constituent regarding lengthy delays and allan i oriau. Cysylltodd etholwr â mi yn waits at the out-of-hours service in north ddiweddar ynglŷn ag oedi ac amseroedd aros Pembrokeshire. It is an essential service for hir yn y gwasanaeth y tu allan i oriau yng elderly and vulnerable people, especially in ngogledd Sir Benfro. Mae’n wasanaeth rural areas. Therefore, can you tell us what hanfodol i bobl oedrannus ac agored i niwed, the Welsh Government is doing to improve yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Felly, the current out-of-hours service, especially in a allwch ddweud wrthym beth y mae rural areas? Can you outline what regular Llywodraeth Cymru’n ei wneud i wella’r reviews your Government undertakes to gwasanaeth y tu allan i oriau presennol, yn ensure that the effectiveness of the service is enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig? A allwch properly tested? amlinellu pa adolygiadau rheolaidd mae eich Llywodraeth yn ymrwymo i’w cynnal i sicrhau y caiff effeithiolrwydd y gwasanaeth ei brofi’n briodol?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, the out-of-hours Lesley Griffiths: Gwnaf. Mae’r gwasanaeth service is very important. You will be aware y tu allan i oriau yn bwysig iawn. Byddwch that I recently held a review of the service, yn ymwybodol fy mod wedi cynnal the results of which I am currently adolygiad o’r gwasanaeth yn ddiweddar, ac considering. I am not aware of this specific rwyf wrthi’n ystyried canlyniadau’r issue, but if you want to write to me about it I adolygiad hwnnw. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol will look into it. o’r mater penodol hwn, ond os hoffech ysgrifennu ataf yn ei gylch, bydd yn ymchwilio iddo.

Elin Jones: Minister, in the past, Elin Jones: Weinidog, yn y gorffennol, mae Government policy has been subject to a polisi’r Llywodraeth wedi bod yn destun rural-proofing exercise before final decision ymarfer prawfesur gwledig cyn gwneud and implementation. If health reconfiguration penderfyniad terfynol a gweithredu. Os proposals for west Wales or any other area of cyfeirir cynigion ad-drefnu iechyd ar gyfer y Wales are referred to the Welsh Government, gorllewin neu unrhyw ran arall o Gymru at

17 28/11/2012 will it be rural-proofing them before you take Lywodraeth Cymru, a fyddant yn destun your final decision? ymarfer prawfesur gwledig cyn y byddwch yn gwneud eich penderfyniad terfynol?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, that would have to be Lesley Griffiths: Byddai’n rhaid ystyried taken into consideration at the end of the hynny ar ddiwedd y broses. process.

William Powell: I recently received a William Powell: Cefais ddeiseb gan petition from the people of Tenby as part of drigolion Dinbych y Pysgod yn ddiweddar fel their attempt to prevent the closure of the rhan o’u hymgais i atal yr uned mân minor injuries unit at Tenby hospital. anafiadau yn ysbyty Dinbych y Pysgod rhag Minister, I am sure that you would agree that cael ei chau. Weinidog, rwy’n siŵr y the work of such units contributes greatly to byddech yn cytuno bod gwaith unedau o’r the work of the local health service, fath yn cyfrannu’n fawr at waith y particularly when district general hospitals gwasanaeth iechyd lleol, yn enwedig pan fo are particularly sparse in that part of Wales. ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yn arbennig o Would you consider accepting an invitation brin yn y rhan honno o Gymru. A fyddech yn to visit the minor injuries unit at Tenby to see ystyried derbyn gwahoddiad i ymweld â’r the work going on there and to gain a wider uned mân anafiadau yn Ninbych y Pysgod i understanding of its importance? weld y gwaith sy’n cael ei wneud yno a chael dealltwriaeth ehangach o’i phwysigrwydd?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes. Depending on diary Lesley Griffiths: Byddwn. Yn dibynnu ar commitments, I would certainly consider ymrwymiadau’r dyddiadur, byddwn yn sicr that. Minor injuries units certainly play a very yn ystyried hynny. Mae unedau mân important part in the health service. I recently anafiadau yn sicr yn chwarae rhan bwysig visited Barry MIU and was blown away by iawn yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Ymwelais ag the work undertaken there. I was launching Uned Mân Anafiadau y Barri ddiweddar a the Choose Well application when I was chefais fy syfrdanu gan y gwaith sy’n cael ei there. It is about making sure that people are wneud yno. Roeddwn yn lansio’r rhaglen aware of the variety of services, rather than Dewis Doeth pan oeddwn yno. Mae’n just rushing to A&E. If A&E is what they ymwneud â sicrhau bod pobl yn ymwybodol need, that is fine, but MIUs have a huge part o’r amrywiaeth o wasanaethau sydd ar gael, to play within the whole of the NHS in yn hytrach na rhuthro i adran Damweiniau ac Wales. Achosion Brys yn syth. Os oes angen mynd i uned Damweiniau ac Achosion brys arnynt, yna digon teg, ond mae gan Unedau Mân Anafiadau ran enfawr i’w chwarae yn y GIG cyfan yng Nghymru.

2.00 p.m.

Dwyrain De Cymru South Wales East

8. Mohammad Asghar: A wnaiff y 8. Mohammad Asghar: Will the Minister Gweinidog ddatganiad am ei blaenoriaethau make a statement on her priorities for health ar gyfer iechyd yn Nwyrain De Cymru. in South Wales East. OAQ(4)0194(HSS) OAQ(4)0194(HSS)

18 28/11/2012

Mohammad Asghar: Thank you for that Mohammad Asghar: Diolch am yr ateb answer, Minister. It is estimated that alcohol- hwnnw, Weinidog. Amcangyfrifir bod related illness costs the NHS in Gwent salwch sy’n gysylltiedig ag alcohol yn costio around £15 million. According to the Office tua £15 miliwn i’r GIG yng Ngwent. Yn ôl y for National Statistics, 67 people in Gwent Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol, bu farw 67 o died alcohol-related deaths in 2010. Alcohol bobl yng Ngwent o salwch oedd yn is also a contributory factor in illnesses such gysylltiedig ag alcohol yn 2010. Mae alcohol as heart disease, liver disease, stroke and hefyd yn ffactor sy’n cyfrannu at afiechydon some forms of cancer. Does the Minister fel clefyd y galon, clefyd yr iau/afu, strôc a agree that reliance on alcohol is as much a rhai mathau o ganser. A yw’r Gweinidog yn risk to health as smoking? What is the Welsh cytuno bod dibyniaeth ar alcohol yr un mor Government doing to increase public beryglus i iechyd ag ysmygu? Beth mae awareness of this risk? Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i godi ymwybyddiaeth y cyhoedd o’r risg hon?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, I agree. You may be Lesley Griffiths: Cytunaf. Efallai y byddwch aware that last week was Alcohol Awareness yn ymwybodol o ymgyrch Wythnos Week and we did a great deal to promote that Ymwybyddiaeth Alcohol a gynhaliwyd yr within Government and out there in the wythnos ddiwethaf, a gwnaethom gryn dipyn service. It is something that we need to make i hyrwyddo hynny o fewn Llywodraeth a’r people aware of. We are trying to say now gwasanaeth. Mae’n rhywbeth y mae angen that people have to take responsibility for inni wneud pobl yn ymwybodol ohono. their own health, but they have to have the Rydym yn ceisio dweud nawr bod yn rhaid i facts about the damage that alcohol can do. bobl gymryd cyfrifoldeb dros eu hiechyd eu We are doing that through a variety of public hunain, ond mae’n rhaid iddynt gael y health campaigns. ffeithiau am y niwed y gall alcohol ei achosi. Rydym yn gwneud hynny drwy amrywiaeth o ymgyrchoedd iechyd y cyhoedd.

Lindsay Whittle: Minister, due to the Lindsay Whittle: Weinidog, oherwydd y decision to place a critical injuries unit at penderfyniad i sefydlu uned anafiadau Llanfrechfa Grange near Cwmbran, what critigol yn Llanfrechfa Grange ger Cwmbrân, plans are there to ensure that adequate pa gynlluniau sydd ar waith i sicrhau bod facilities remain to treat those with learning cyfleusterau digonol yn parhau i drin y rheiny difficulties and disabilities requiring ag anawsterau dysgu ac anableddau y mae continuous healthcare? angen gofal iechyd parhaus arnynt?

Lesley Griffiths: That is a very specific Lesley Griffiths: Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn question and I will to write to the Member penodol iawn ac ysgrifennaf at yr Aelod with the answer. gyda’r ateb.

Anghydraddoldebau Iechyd Health Inequalities

9. Kenneth Skates: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 9. Kenneth Skates: Will the Minister outline amlinellu cynlluniau Llywodraeth Cymru i the Welsh Government’s plans to tackle fynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd health inequalities in north Wales. yng ngogledd Cymru. OAQ(4)0197(HSS) OAQ(4)0197(HSS)

Lesley Griffiths: The importance of Lesley Griffiths: Amlygir pwysigrwydd reducing health inequalities is highlighted in lleihau anghydraddoldebau iechyd yn ein our five-year vision for the NHS in Wales, gweledigaeth bum mlynedd ar gyfer y GIG ‘Together for Health’. We are committed to yng Nghymru, ‘Law yn Llaw at Iechyd’. achieving this through our ‘Fairer Health Rydym yn ymrwymedig i gyflawni hyn drwy Outcomes for All’ national action plan. Local ein cynllun gweithredu cenedlaethol, health boards are also taking forward local ‘Canlyniadau Iechyd Tecach i Bawb’. Mae

19 28/11/2012 action for tackling health inequalities. byrddau iechyd lleol hefyd yn cymryd camau gweithredu lleol i fynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd.

Kenneth Skates: Minister, like you and Kenneth Skates: Weinidog, fel chi a other Ministers, I am concerned that if we do Gweinidogion eraill, rwy’n pryderu os na not get more people walking and cycling in allwn annog mwy o bobl i gerdded a beicio their communities, it will not only become a yn eu cymunedau, nid yn unig y daw’n transport problem, but it will have a knock-on broblem trafnidiaeth, ond caiff effaith impact on the health profile of Wales. ganlyniadol ar broffil iechyd Cymru. Minister, what efforts are you making with Weinidog, pa ymdrechion rydych yn eu the Minister for transport to increase the gwneud gyda’r Gweinidog Trafnidiaeth i number of people walking and cycling in gynyddu nifer y bobl sy’n cerdded ac yn Wales? What steps are you taking beicio yng Nghymru? Pa gamau rydych yn eu collectively to strengthen the active travel cymryd ar y cyd i atgyfnerthu’r Bil teithio Bill to achieve these aims? byw er mwyn cyflawni’r nodau hyn?

Lesley Griffiths: The active travel (Wales) Lesley Griffiths: Disgwylir i Fil Teithio Bill is due for introduction in early 2013 and Byw (Cymru) gael ei gyflwyno ar ddechrau this Bill will put a much greater emphasis on 2013 a bydd y Bil hwn yn rhoi llawer mwy o walking and cycling as modes of transport. It bwyslais ar gerdded a beicio fel dulliau will place new duties on local authorities and trafnidiaeth. Bydd yn gosod dyletswyddau the Welsh Government in order to make it newydd ar awdurdodau lleol a Llywodraeth safer and easier for people to incorporate Cymru er mwyn ei gwneud yn fwy diogel ac active travel into their daily lives. Obviously, yn haws i bobl ymgorffori teithio byw i I do have discussions with Carl Sargeant in mewn i’w bywydau bob dydd. Yn amlwg, relation to this. I think that the programme rwy’n cael trafodaethau â Carl Sargeant will be very cross-cutting across Government mewn perthynas â hyn. Credaf y bydd y and will probably involve most departments. rhaglen yn drawsbynciol iawn ar draws We have also invested significant amounts of Llywodraeth ac mae’n debygol y bydd yn funding to improve provision for pedestrians cynnwys y rhan fwyaf o’r adrannau. Rydym and cyclists and the Bill will reinforce the hefyd wedi buddsoddi symiau sylweddol o aims of the expenditure. Within my own arian i wella’r ddarpariaeth i gerddwyr a department, I have a corporate health beicwyr a bydd y Mesur yn atgyfnerthu standard and the small workplace health nodau’r gwariant. O fewn fy adran fy hun, awards, which includes employers who mae gennyf safon iechyd gorfforaethol a encourage their staff to walk or cycle to work gwobrau iechyd y gweithle bach, sy’n or to go out in their lunch break and take part cynnwys cyflogwyr sy’n annog eu staff i in some physical activity. gerdded neu feicio i’r gwaith neu i fynd allan yn ystod eu hegwyl ginio a chymryd rhan mewn rhyw fath o weithgarwch corfforol.

The Presiding Officer: Janet Finch- Y Llywydd: Janet Finch-Saunders. Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Hi. [Laughter.] Janet Finch-Saunders: Helo. [Chwerthin.] Sorry, I was busy doing casework there. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, roeddwn yn brysur yn gwneud gwaith achos.

In light of a statement about health equalities Yng ngoleuni’r datganiad am in north Wales, will you provide some gydraddoldebau iechyd yn y gogledd, a clarification around the current downgrading wnewch chi roi rhywfaint o eglurhad that is taking place in Llandudno General ynghylch y gwaith israddio sy’n mynd Hospital? I am talking about the endoscopy rhagddo yn Ysbyty Cyffredinol Llandudno ar unit that Darren Millar AM and I visited last hyn o bryd? Rwy’n sôn am yr uned

20 28/11/2012

July. We saw the plans for expansion and endosgopi yr ymwelodd Darren Millar AC a redevelopment, only to find, after vast sums minnau â hi fis Gorffennaf diwethaf. of taxpayers’ money have been spent, that the Gwelsom y cynlluniau ar gyfer ehangu ac service has been completely withdrawn. Can ailddatblygu, dim ond i ganfod, ar ôl gwario you give reasons why downgrading is taking symiau enfawr o arian y trethdalwr, fod y place at a time when the consultation process gwasanaeth wedi cael ei ddiddymu’n llwyr. is, technically, still ongoing? A allwch roi rhesymau pam mae gwaith israddio’n cael ei wneud ar adeg pan fo’r broses ymgynghori, i bob pwrpas, yn dal yn mynd rhagddi?

Lesley Griffiths: You will have heard me Lesley Griffiths: Byddwch wedi fy say many times that I do not want to see any nghlywed yn dweud droeon nad wyf am weld downgrading. What I want to see at the end unrhyw israddio. Yr hyn rwyf am ei weld ar of the reconfiguration is better services for ddiwedd yr ad-drefnu yw gwasanaethau everybody, and I am sure that that will be gwell i bawb, ac rwy’n siŵr y caiff hynny ei considered as part of Betsi Cadwaldr LHB’s ystyried fel rhan o gynlluniau BILl Betsi plans. Cadwaladr.

Brycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed Brecon and Radnorshire

10. Kirsty Williams: Pa gamau y mae’r 10. Kirsty Williams: What steps is the Gweinidog yn eu cymryd i wella Minister taking to improve health services in gwasanaethau iechyd ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Brecon and Radnorshire. OAQ(4)0203(HSS) Faesyfed. OAQ(4)0203(HSS)

Kirsty Williams: One step that the Welsh Kirsty Williams: Un cam y gallai Government could take to improve services is Llywodraeth Cymru ei gymryd i wella to agree the capital funding for work at the gwasanaethau yw cytuno ar gyllid cyfalaf ar Llandrindod Wells County War Memorial gyfer gwaith yn Ysbyty Coffa Llandrindod, a Hospital, which would allow more fyddai’n galluogi mwy o bobl yn Sir Radnorshire people to be treated within the Faesyfed i gael eu trin o fewn y sir ac yn county and save Powys LHB money, which arbed arian i BILl Powys, sy’n berthnasol o is relevant given the projected overspend on ystyried y gorwariant a ragwelir ar ei its budget. Will the Minister give us an gyllideb. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r update on whether she is minded to approve wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni ynghylch a yw o those capital bids? blaid cymeradwyo’r ceisiadau cyfalaf hynny?

Lesley Griffiths: We are currently in the Lesley Griffiths: Rydym ar hyn o bryd yn y normal business case-approval process for a broses cymeradwyo achosion busnes arferol strategic outline case that seeks approval for ar gyfer achos amlinellol strategol sy’n ceisio capital expenditure of £5.537 million for the cymeradwyaeth ar gyfer gwariant cyfalaf reconfiguration of departments in gwerth £5.537 miliwn ar gyfer ad-drefnu Llandrindod Wells hospital and its adjacent adrannau yn ysbyty Llandrindod a’i eiddo properties. cyfagos.

Darren Millar: Brecon and Radnorshire are Darren Millar: Gwasanaethir Brycheiniog a served by the Powys Teaching Local Health Sir Faesyfed gan Fwrdd Iechyd Addysgu Board, which could face a deficit of up to £9 Lleol Powys, a allai wynebu diffyg o hyd at million, according to the Wales Audit Office £9 miliwn, yn ôl adroddiad Swyddfa

21 28/11/2012 report that was published last week. You Archwilio Cymru a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos have given assurances, as has the director ddiwethaf. Rydych wedi rhoi sicrwydd, fel y general of the NHS in Wales, that all health mae cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol y GIG yng boards will break even. How do you Nghymru, y bydd pob bwrdd iechyd yn reconcile the Wales Audit Office report adennill eu costau. Sut ydych yn cysoni information with the comments that you have gwybodaeth adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio given that there will be no bail-outs and that Cymru gyda’r sylwadau a roddwyd gennych every local health board will break even? na fydd unrhyw gymorth ar gael ac y bydd pob bwrdd iechyd lleol yn adennill ei gostau?

Lesley Griffiths: You will be aware that, Lesley Griffiths: Fel y gwyddoch, oherwydd because of concerns around finance and pryderon am gyllid a pherfformiad, gofynnais performance, I asked for a mid-year review to am i adolygiad canol blwyddyn gael ei be undertaken. That has now been completed gynnal. Mae hwnnw bellach wedi cael ei by my director general and submitted to me. I gwblhau gan fy nghyfarwyddwr cyffredinol am seeking clarification on some of the a’i gyflwyno imi. Rwyf wrthi’n ceisio cael points in the review at present, and I will eglurhad ar rai o’r pwyntiau yn yr adolygiad, announce the outcome of the process next a byddaf yn cyhoeddi canlyniad y broses yr week. wythnos nesaf.

Simon Thomas: Minister, I have raised Simon Thomas: Weinidog, rwyf eisoes wedi previously with you the future of stroke codi pryderon â chi ynghylch dyfodol services throughout the county of Powys, and gwasanaethau strôc ledled sir Powys, ac mae there is a consultation at the moment on ymgynghoriad yn mynd rhagddo ar hyn o stroke support and the future of Bronllys bryd ar gymorth strôc a dyfodol Ysbyty Hospital. Many of the local residents feel that Bronllys. Mae llawer o’r trigolion lleol yn that consultation has been a little misleading teimlo bod yr ymgynghoriad wedi bod and has particularly misled local people as ychydig yn gamarweiniol a’i fod wedi regards the future relationship between camarwain pobl leol yn enwedig o ran y Bronllys and Brecon as regards stroke gydberthynas rhwng Bronllys ac Aberhonddu services. If there is evidence that that yn y dyfodol o ran gwasanaethau strôc. Os consultation has not been undertaken in a oes tystiolaeth nad yw’r ymgynghoriad fully open manner, would you support an wedi’i gynnal mewn modd cwbl agored, a extension to that period so that local people fyddech yn cefnogi cynnig i ymestyn y can have their say so that the decisions that cyfnod hwnnw fel y gall pobl leol leisio eu are eventually taken are taken on the best barn er mwyn sicrhau bod y penderfyniadau a clinical grounds and that people understand wneir yn y pen draw yn cael eu cymryd ar y why those decisions have been taken? sail glinigol orau a bod pobl yn deall pam mae’r penderfyniadau hynny wedi’u cymryd?

Lesley Griffiths: I am concerned to hear Lesley Griffiths: Mae’r achos hwnnw yn about that case. I know that the consultation peri pryder imi. Gwn y bydd yr is due to end on Friday, so, if that were the ymgynghoriad yn dod i ben ddydd Gwener, case, I would support it, but I would have to felly, pe bai hynny’n wir, byddwn yn ei see proof of that. I know that the health board gefnogi, ond byddai’n rhaid imi weld is developing plans to continue offering tystiolaeth o hynny. Gwn fod y bwrdd iechyd services from that site and to seek yn datblygu cynlluniau i barhau i gynnig alternatives for some of the services in new gwasanaethau o’r safle hwnnw ac i chwilio accommodation. am ddewisiadau amgen ar gyfer rhai o’r gwasanaethau mewn adeilad newydd.

Dementia Dementia

11. Mike Hedges: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 11. Mike Hedges: Will the Minister outline amlinellu pa gyngor sydd wedi cael ei roi i what advice has been given to hospital A&E

22 28/11/2012 adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys departments on dealing with patients with ysbytai ar ymdrin â chleifion sydd â dementia. OAQ(4)0193(HSS) dementia. OAQ(4)0193(HSS)

Lesley Griffiths: Accident and emergency Lesley Griffiths: Disgwylir i adrannau departments are expected to follow National damweiniau ac achosion brys ddilyn Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence canllawiau’r Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros guidelines, which state that hospitals should Iechyd a Rhagoriaeth Glinigol, sy’n datgan y plan and provide services that address the dylai ysbytai gynllunio a darparu specific needs, both mental and physical, of gwasanaethau sy’n diwallu anghenion people with dementia. Health boards are penodol pobl â dementia, boed yn feddyliol expected to implement intelligent targets for neu’n gorfforol. Disgwylir i fyrddau iechyd dementia, including improving the quality of bennu targedau deallus ar gyfer dementia, general hospital care for people with gan gynnwys gwella ansawdd y gofal dementia. cyffredinol a roddir i bobl â dementia mewn ysbytai.

Mike Hedges: One of the problems that Mike Hedges: Un o’r problemau sy’n bodoli exists at Morriston Hospital is that waiting yn Ysbyty Treforys yw y gall amseroedd aros times can be relatively long. I know of a fod yn gymharol hir. Gwn am glaf â dementia dementia patient who has had to go there sydd wedi gorfod mynd yno sawl gwaith yn several times following accidents because she dilyn damweiniau am ei bod hefyd ar is also on warfarin and who gets very upset warfarin ac sy’n gofidio ac yn pryderu’n fawr and anguished at having to wait for relatively wrth orfod aros am gyfnodau cymharol hir o long periods of time in order to be seen. Is it amser er mwyn cael ei gweld. A yw’n bosibl possible for people who are registered with i bobl sydd wedi’u cofrestru â dementia gael dementia to be seen more swiftly in order to eu gweld yn gynt er mwyn atal hynny rhag avoid that happening? digwydd?

Lesley Griffiths: I accept that, for some Lesley Griffiths: Derbyniaf y gallai cynnwrf individuals, agitation could be a problem and, fod yn broblem i rai unigolion ac, mewn in such instances, fast-tracking may well be achosion o’r fath, efallai y byddai’n helpful, but I would expect all people with ddefnyddiol iddynt gael eu gweld yn gynt, dementia presenting at accident and ond byddwn yn disgwyl i bob person â emergency departments to be dealt with dementia sy’n mynd i adrannau damweiniau according to clinical need, as they should be ac achosion brys gael eu trin yn unol ag throughout the hospital system. I know that angen clinigol, fel y dylid gwneud ym mhob we have had some schemes such as the rhan o’r system ysbytai. Gwn ein bod wedi Alzheimer’s butterfly scheme, which has cynnal rhai cynlluniau megis cynllun pili- been rolled out in several health boards, pala clefyd Alzheimer, a gyflwynwyd mewn including Abertawe Bro Morgannwg LHB, sawl bwrdd iechyd, gan gynnwys BILl which encourages staff to identify and Abertawe Bro Morgannwg, sy’n annog staff i manage all people with dementia more nodi a rheoli pob person â dementia yn fwy effectively and sympathetically. However, effeithiol a chydymdeimladol. Fodd bynnag, the most important thing is that patients are y peth pwysicaf yw bod cleifion yn cael eu treated appropriately and with dignity. trin yn briodol a chydag urddas.

Nick Ramsay: Figures gathered last year by Nick Ramsay: Amlygodd ffigyrau a the Alzheimer’s Society highlighted the fact gasglwyd y llynedd gan y Gymdeithas that only an estimated 37% of dementia Alzheimer y ffaith mai dim ond tua 37% o sufferers in Wales are diagnosed, which bobl â dementia yng Nghymru sy’n cael means that an estimated 27,000 people in diagnosis o’r cyflwr, sy’n golygu nad yw tua Wales are going undiagnosed, which is the 27,000 o bobl yng Nghymru yn cael worst figure among those of all of the UK diagnosis, sef y ffigur gwaethaf ymysg holl nations. What are you doing to help improve wledydd y DU. Beth ydych yn ei wneud i

23 28/11/2012 the diagnosis rate of dementia sufferers in helpu i wella cyfraddau canfod dementia Wales, so that those sufferers can access ymhlith pobl yng Nghymru, er mwyn sicrhau treatment as soon as possible, which is better y gall y bobl hynny gael gafael ar driniaeth for their condition in the long term? cyn gynted â phosibl, a hynny er budd eu cyflwr yn y tymor hir?

Lesley Griffiths: We are working to ensure Lesley Griffiths: Rydym yn gweithio i that all health and social care staff are able to sicrhau bod pob aelod o staff iechyd a gofal increase their skills and knowledge around cymdeithasol yn gallu gwella ei sgiliau a’i dementia, so that people can get earlier wybodaeth am ddementia, fel y gall pobl gael diagnoses. We have also, as a Government, diagnosis yn gynt. Rydym hefyd, fel put a huge amount of money into building Llywodraeth, wedi buddsoddi llawer iawn o dementia units. On Monday, I opened the arian yn adeiladu unedau dementia. Ddydd Ysbryd y Coed unit at Cefn Coed Hosiptal, Llun, agorais uned Ysbryd y Coed yn Ysbyty which is ân £18.5 million capital-funded 60- Cefn Coed, sef uned gwerth £18.5 miliwn â bed unit. There is a unit at Wrexham Maelor 60 o welyau a ariennir gan gyfalaf. Mae uned Hospital and one at the University Hospital yn Ysbyty Maelor Wrecsam ac un yn Ysbyty Llandough as well. Therefore, this is a Athrofaol Llandochau hefyd. Felly, mae hyn priority for the Government. yn flaenoriaeth i’r Llywodraeth.

Alun Ffred Jones: Mae’n amlwg ein bod yn Alun Ffred Jones: It is obvious that we are wynebu anawsterau enfawr yn sgil niferoedd facing huge difficulties given the increasing cynyddol y bobl sy’n dioddef o ddementia. A number of people suffering from dementia. wnewch chi ymuno â mi i groesawu’r Will you join me in welcoming the new ganolfan newydd sydd ar fin agor yng centre that is about to open in Caernarfon, Nghaernarfon, sef canolfan a fydd yn darparu which will provide care for dementia gofal i ddioddefwyr dementia a’u teuluoedd, sufferers and their families and which will ac yn cynnig gofal hyblyg? offer flexible care?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, indeed; I will join you Lesley Griffiths: Yn wir; ymunaf â chi i in welcoming that. I just said that this is a groesawu hynny. Rwyf newydd ddweud bod priority for the Government, and it is hyn yn flaenoriaeth i’r Llywodraeth, ac important that we have the facilities. mae’n bwysig bod gennym y cyfleusterau. However, as I said when I opened Ysbryd y Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedais pan agorais Coed on Monday, this is not just about bricks Ysbryd y Coed ddydd Llun, mae hyn yn and mortar; it is about making sure that the golygu mwy na brics a morter; mae’n golygu services, and the people who work to provide gwneud yn siŵr bod y gwasanaethau, a’r bobl them, are also there for people with dementia. sy’n gweithio i’w darparu, hefyd yno i bobl â dementia.

Eluned Parrot: Minister, Bradford Teaching Parrot Eluned: Weinidog, mae Ysbyty Hospital has transformed two wards into a Athrofaol Bradford wedi trawsnewid dwy calming space to help those with dementia. It ward yn fannau tawelu i helpu’r rheiny â is also educating all staff members on dementia. Mae hefyd yn addysgu pob aelod o dementia, with a target of getting everyone staff ar ddemensia, gyda tharged o sicrhau trained by the end of 2013. Sadly, it is still bod pawb wedi’u hyfforddi erbyn diwedd the case that some patients with dementia 2013. Yn anffodus, gall rhai cleifion â who are admitted for other reasons can be dementia sy’n cael eu derbyn am resymau kept in accident and emergency bays for eraill orfod aros mewn adrannau damweiniau significant periods of time, which will leave ac achosion brys am gyfnodau sylweddol o them even more disoriented, distressed and amser o hyd, a fydd yn eu gadael hyd yn oed confused. Will you pledge to look at the work yn fwy gofidus a dryslyd. A wnewch chi at Bradford Teaching Hospital and see what addo ystyried y gwaith yn Ysbyty Addysgu lessons can be learned for Wales? Bradford er mwyn gweld pa wersi y gellir eu dysgu yng Nghymru?

24 28/11/2012

Lesley Griffiths: Certainly, I will have a Lesley Griffiths: Yn sicr, ystyriaf yr hyn look at what is happening in Bradford. When sy’n digwydd yn Bradford. Pan agorais uned I opened the Ysbryd y Coed unit on Monday, Ysbryd y Coed ddydd Llun, teimlais fod y I felt that the attention to detail was amazing. sylw at fanylder yn anhygoel. Roedd tair There were three oval units with colour- uned hirgrwn gyda lloriau â chodau lliw, fel coded flooring, so that people did not get na fyddai pobl yn drysu pe byddent yn disoriented if they did wander off. crwydro. Yn ôl pob tebyg, gall defnyddio Apparently, using colours in this way can lliwiau yn y modd hwn helpu i ennyn help draw people with dementia in and can diddordeb pobl â dementia a’u cadw ar yr un keep them on the same path. Therefore, there llwybr. Felly, mae llawer o waith rhagorol yn is a lot of excellent work going on in cael ei wneud ym maes gofal dementia. Fodd dementia care. However, if we can learn bynnag, os gallwn ddysgu unrhyw beth oddi anything from Bradford, we will have a look wrth Bradford, byddwn yn ei ystyried ac yn and do so. gwneud hynny.

Mewnblaniadau Bronnau Silicon PIP PIP Silicone Breast Implants

12. Mick Antoniw: Mewn sawl achos y mae’r 12. Mick Antoniw: In how many cases has gost o newid mewnblaniadau bronnau silicon the cost of replacing PIP silicone breast PIP ar GIG Cymru wedi cael ei hadennill implants on the Welsh NHS been recovered gan y darparwyr preifat. OAQ(4)0200(HSS) from the private providers. OAQ(4)0200(HSS)

Lesley Griffiths: No costs have been Lesley Griffiths: Nid adenillwyd unrhyw recovered to date, as legal claims being gostau hyd yma, gan fod hawliadau brought by PIP patients are still before the cyfreithiol sy’n cael eu gwneud gan gleifion courts. PIP yn dal gerbron y llysoedd.

Mick Antoniw: I would first like to welcome Mick Antoniw: Hoffwn yn gyntaf groesawu the very brave and correct decision that was penderfyniad dewr a chwbl gywir y GIG i taken by the NHS in supporting those people gefnogi’r bobl hynny yng Nghymru, gan roi’r in Wales, putting the Welsh NHS at the GIG yng Nghymru ar flaen y gad. Deallaf forefront. I understand the complexity of the gymhlethdod yr achosion cyfreithiol. Diben legal cases. The purpose of my fy nghwestiwn atodol yw ceisio cael supplementary question is to seek your sicrwydd ac ymrwymiad gennych y caiff assurance and commitment that no stone will popeth posibl ei wneud i adennill y costau i be left unturned in recovering the costs to the Lywodraeth Cymru gan y sector preifat. Welsh Government from the private sector.

Lesley Griffiths: You absolutely have my Lesley Griffiths: Rhoddaf fy sicrwydd llwyr assurance on that. This situation was caused ichi ynghylch hynny. Mae’r sefyllfa hon yn as a result of a major fraud. We absolutely deillio o dwyll mawr. Yn sicr, mae’n rhaid have to do everything that we can to recover inni wneud popeth posibl i adennill y costau. those costs.

Darren Millar: Minister, have you been able Darren Millar: Weinidog, a ydych wedi to establish the total costs yet, and what llwyddo i bennu cyfanswm y costau eto, a provision has been set aside within the Welsh pha ddarpariaeth sydd wedi’i neilltuo o fewn NHS budget to meet these costs should they cyllideb y GIG yng Nghymru i dalu’r costau not be recovered from private providers? hyn oni chânt eu hadennill gan ddarparwyr preifat?

Lesley Griffiths: I do not have the specific Lesley Griffiths: Nid yw’r costau penodol costs because patients are still being treated gennyf am fod cleifion yn dal i gael eu trin ar

25 28/11/2012 at present. However, we estimate that the cost hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, amcangyfrifwn y of replacing the implants is in the region of bydd yn costio ychydig dros £0.5 miliwn i just over £0.5 million. All patients will be osod mewnblaniadau newydd yn lle’r hen rai. treated during the current financial year. Caiff pob claf ei drin yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol.

Ymgyrchoedd Iechyd y Cyhoedd Public Health Campaigns

13. Mark Drakeford: A wnaiff y Gweinidog 13. Mark Drakeford: Will the Minister make ddatganiad am ddatblygu ymgyrchoedd a statement on the development of national cenedlaethol iechyd y cyhoedd yng Nghymru. public health campaigns in Wales. OAQ(4)0206(HSS) OAQ(4)0206(HSS)

Lesley Griffiths: The Change for Life Lesley Griffiths: Mae ymgyrch Newid am campaign is supporting people to achieve a Oes yn helpu pobl i gyrraedd pwysau iach, healthy bodyweight, to eat well, to drink bwyta’n dda, yfed yn synhwyrol a bod yn sensibly and to be more physically active. fwy egnïol yn gorfforol. Mae tua 42,000 o Around 42,000 families and adults are active deuluoedd ac oedolion yn aelodau members. The Fresh Start Wales campaign is gweithredol. Mae ymgyrch Cychwyn Iach raising awareness of the harm caused by Cymru yn codi ymwybyddiaeth o’r niwed a second-hand smoke in cars, particularly to achosir gan fwg ail-law mewn ceir, yn children. enwedig i blant.

Mark Drakeford: The most recent national Mark Drakeford: Mae’r ymgyrch iechyd y public health campaign, the Love Your cyhoedd genedlaethol ddiweddaraf, Carwch Lungs campaign, has just completed a eich Ysgyfaint, newydd gwblhau pythefnos o fortnight of activity across Wales. It brought weithgareddau ledled Cymru. Gwnaeth together Public Health Wales and the third ddwyn ynghyd Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cymru a’r sector, through the British Lung Foundation, trydydd sector, drwy Sefydliad Prydeinig yr and was delivered on the ground by the Ysgyfaint, ac fe’i cyflwynwyd ar lawr gwlad network of community pharmacies in every gan y rhwydwaith o fferyllfeydd cymunedol part of Wales. Do you believe that this ym mhob rhan o Gymru. A ydych yn credu tripartite partnership provides a template for bod y bartneriaeth deir-ran hon yn darparu the successful delivery of national public templed ar gyfer cyflwyno ymgyrchoedd health campaigns in the future? iechyd y cyhoedd cenedlaethol yn llwyddiannus yn y dyfodol?

2.15 p.m.

Lesley Griffiths: Yes; absolutely. I was very Lesley Griffiths: Ydw, yn sicr. Roeddwn yn pleased to see a broad range of health falch iawn o weld ystod eang o sefydliadau organisations working together to raise public iechyd yn cydweithio i godi ymwybyddiaeth awareness. I was at the launch of Love Your y cyhoedd. Euthum i lansiad Carwch eich Lungs in Boots pharmacy in Cardiff, where Ysgyfaint yn fferyllfa Boots yng Tim Rhys Evans, of Only Men Aloud fame, Nghaerdydd, lle roedd Tim Rhys Evans, o was teaching us all not to sing but to do Only Men Aloud, yn ein dysgu, nid sut i exercises to improve our lungs. It is ganu, ond sut i wneud ymarferion i wella ein important, because lung disease is a hysgyfaint. Mae’n bwysig, oherwydd mae significant health issue in Wales, and a clefyd yr ysgyfaint yn broblem iechyd priority for me as Minister and for the sylweddol yng Nghymru, ac yn flaenoriaeth Government. It is important that we engage imi fel Gweinidog ac i’r Llywodraeth. Mae’n with the voluntary sector. It can help us in bwysig ein bod yn cydweithio â’r sector raising public awareness and it works closely gwirfoddol. Gall ein helpu i godi with communities across Wales, playing a ymwybyddiaeth y cyhoedd ac mae’n key role in ensuring that these public health gweithio’n agos gyda chymunedau ledled

26 28/11/2012 campaigns are rolled out in all our Cymru, gan chwarae rôl allweddol yn y communities. gwaith o sicrhau bod yr ymgyrchoedd iechyd y cyhoedd hyn yn cael eu cyflwyno ym mhob un o’n cymunedau.

Russell George: I have a real concern about Russell George: Mae gennyf bryder the use of synthetic drugs in Wales, gwirioneddol ynghylch y defnydd o gyffuriau particularly mephedrone or MCAT. synthetig yng Nghymru, yn enwedig Unscrupulous dealers here and abroad are mephedrone neu MCAT. Mae delwyr deliberately targeting and exploiting children diegwyddor yma a thramor yn targedu ac yn with this drug, providing them with cheap manteisio ar blant yn fwriadol gyda’r cyffur tasters in order to create long-term market hwn, gan ei gynnig iddynt am bris rhad i demand. What is the Welsh Government ddechrau er mwyn creu galw hirdymor yn y doing in terms of campaign work with farchnad. Beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn stakeholders, the police, local authorities and ei wneud o ran gwaith ymgyrchu gyda local health boards to inform children and rhanddeiliaid, yr heddlu, awdurdodau lleol a parents of the immediate dangers and long- byrddau iechyd lleol er mwyn hysbysu plant term impact of MCAT and other synthetic a rhieni am beryglon uniongyrchol ac effaith drugs? hirdymor MCAT a chyffuriau synthetig eraill?

Lesley Griffiths: Obviously, it is something Lesley Griffiths: Yn amlwg, mae’n that is of a great deal of concern. I am having rhywbeth sy’n peri cryn bryder. Rwy’n cael discussions with the chief medical officer to trafodaethau gyda’r prif swyddog meddygol see what more we can do to get those er mwyn gweld beth arall y gallwn ei wneud i messages out. I am currently looking at all gyfleu’r negeseuon hynny. Rwyf wrthi’n health improvement programmes and public ystyried yr holl raglenni gwella iechyd ac health campaigns, and we can look at that in ymgyrchoedd iechyd y cyhoedd, a gallwn that context. ystyried hynny yn y cyd-destun hwnnw.

Vaughan Gething: Would you be able to Vaughan Gething: A fyddech cystal ag outline how the Welsh Government measures amlinellu sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn the effect of public health campaigns? We all mesur effaith ymgyrchoedd iechyd y know and support a whole range of public cyhoedd? Rydym i gyd yn ymwybodol o health campaigns that are ongoing. We see amrywiaeth eang o ymgyrchoedd iechyd y many of those campaigns in the Health and cyhoedd sy’n mynd rhagddynt ac yn eu Social Care Committee, in particular. What cefnogi. Rydym yn gweld llawer o’r progress is being made in persuading more ymgyrchoedd hynny yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a members of the public to take on greater Gofal Cymdeithasol, yn arbennig. Pa personal responsibility for their own health? gynnydd sy’n cael ei wneud i ddarbwyllo mwy o aelodau o’r cyhoedd i gymryd mwy o gyfrifoldeb personol dros eu hiechyd eu hunain?

Lesley Griffiths: We evaluate all of our Lesley Griffiths: Rydym yn gwerthuso pob campaigns and we measure them in different un o’n hymgyrchoedd ac yn eu mesur mewn ways. I will just focus on Change4Life ffyrdd gwahanol. Byddaf ond yn Wales, which is an adaptation of the canolbwyntio ar Newid am Oes Cymru, sy’n Department of Health’s Change4Life addasiad o ymgyrch Change4Life yr Adran campaign, which is based on a substantial Iechyd, sy’n seiliedig ar gorff sylweddol o body of research and insight. Any burst of ymchwil a dealltwriaeth. Caiff unrhyw campaign activity is evaluated. It has to go weithgarwch a gynhelir fel rhan o’r ymgyrch through a number of evaluations, to include ei werthuso. Mae’n rhaid iddo fod yn destun the number of adults and families that are nifer o werthusiadau, gan gynnwys nifer yr registered and the public relations coverage oedolion a’r teuluoedd sydd wedi’u cofrestru

27 28/11/2012 that we achieve. Social media activity is a’r sylw a roddir i’r ymgyrch gan important, as are Google analytics reports for gysylltiadau cyhoeddus. Mae gweithgarwch how many hits we have had on the cyfryngau cymdeithasol yn bwysig, felly Change4Life website. So, we do a huge hefyd adroddiadau dadansoddi Google sy’n amount of evaluation. In relation to that nodi nifer y bobl sy’n ymweld â gwefan campaign, the 11,000 families that signed up Newid am Oes. Felly, rydym yn gwneud during the first two years of the campaign llawer iawn o waith gwerthuso. O ran yr have been revisited and asked to complete a ymgyrch honno, ailgysylltwyd â’r 11,000 o questionnaire, so that we can assess the deuluoedd a gofrestrodd yn ystod dwy impact that the campaign messages have had flynedd gyntaf yr ymgyrch a gofynnwyd on their behaviour. iddynt lenwi holiadur, er mwyn inni allu asesu’r effaith y mae negeseuon yr ymgyrch wedi’i chael ar eu hymddygiad.

Cwestiynau i’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol Questions to the Counsel General

Awdurdodaeth Gyfreithiol ar Wahân Separate Legal Jurisdiction

1. Simon Thomas: A wnaiff y Cwnsler 1. Simon Thomas: Will the Counsel General Cyffredinol amlinellu pam ei fod yn credu y outline why he considers that the case for byddai’r achos dros sefydlu awdurdodaeth establishing a separate Welsh legal gyfreithiol ar wahân yng Nghymru yn jurisdiction would be considerably weakened wannach o lawer heb ddatganoli plismona a without the devolution of policing and justice chyfiawnder i Gymru. OAQ(4)0041(CGE) to Wales. OAQ(4)0041(CGE)

The Counsel General (Theodore Huckle): Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol (Theodore Without the devolution of policing and, Huckle): Heb ddatganoli plismona ac, yn particularly, justice, important aspects of the benodol, gyfiawnder, Whitehall fyddai’n supposedly separate jurisdiction would still gyfrifol o hyd am agweddau pwysig ar yr be the responsibility of Whitehall. We are, awdurdodaeth sydd i fod ar wahân. Rydym, however, considering all of the options. fodd bynnag, yn ystyried yr holl opsiynau. Whatever view we reach as a Government Mae’n rhaid i ba farn bynnag y byddwn yn must be for the benefit of the people of cytuno arni fod er budd pobl Cymru. Wales.

Simon Thomas: I thank the Counsel General Simon Thomas: Diolchaf i’r Cwnsler for his reply. When I tabled this question I Cyffredinol am ei ateb. Pan gyflwynais y did not know that Chris Grayling would be cwestiwn hwn, nid oeddwn yn gwybod y coming to Wales yesterday, saying that he byddai Chris Grayling yn dod i Gymru ddoe, was very doubtful of the need for a separate gan ddweud ei fod yn amheus iawn o’r angen Welsh jurisdiction and that am awdurdodaeth ar wahân i Gymru ac y byddai’n

‘it would be an enormous expense’. costio llawer o arian.

That is not something that we have had any Nid yw hynny’n rhywbeth rydym wedi cael evidence for in the public evidence that the unrhyw dystiolaeth ohono yn y dystiolaeth Constitutional and Legislative Affairs gyhoeddus y mae’r Pwyllgor Materion Committee has received. Nevertheless, you Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol wedi’i said, Counsel General, in a recent speech chael. Serch hynny, dywedasoch, Gwnsler discussing policing, that you needed a Cyffredinol, mewn araith ddiweddar yn reasonably full set of powers in relation to trafod plismona, fod angen cyfres lawn o justice in order to make a separate Welsh bwerau mewn perthynas â chyfiawnder er

28 28/11/2012 jurisdiction work. Could you explain a little mwyn sicrhau bod awdurdodaeth ar wahân i more about how the Government will now Gymru yn llwyddo. A allech esbonio ychydig approach this? Is it a twin-track approach to yn fwy sut y bydd y Llywodraeth bellach yn take what might be available and then ymdrin â hyn? A yw’n ddull deublyg o perhaps to move on at a later date, or is a gymryd yr hyn a allai fod ar gael ac wedyn separate Welsh jurisdiction now contingent efallai symud ymlaen yn ddiweddarach, neu a upon the devolution of justice and policing yw awdurdodaeth Gymreig ar wahân bellach powers? yn amodol ar ddatganoli cyfiawnder a phwerau plismona?

Theodore Huckle: If I may put it this way, Theodore Huckle: Os caf ei fynegi fel hyn, the thrust of what I said in the speech and hanfod yr hyn a ddywedais yn yr araith a’r what I would say to the Chamber today is hyn y byddwn yn ei ddweud wrth y Siambr that we must approach this in a pragmatic and heddiw yw bod yn rhaid inni ymdrin â hyn practical way. I am sure that those of us who mewn ffordd bragmatig ac ymarferol. Rwy’n have been concerned with this issue have siŵr bod y rheiny ohonom sydd wedi bod yn spoken within and without our political ymwneud â’r mater hwn wedi siarad y tu spheres to friends and others about the mewn a’r tu allan i’n meysydd gwleidyddol â matter. In my experience, non-lawyers have a ffrindiau ac eraill am y mater. Yn fy great deal of difficulty in understanding how mhrofiad i, mae pobl nad ydynt yn you could separate the jurisdiction in theory gyfreithwyr yn cael anhawster deall sut y but not have control of the courts and justice gallech wahanu’r awdurdodaeth mewn theori generally in practice. That is something that heb gael rheolaeth dros y llysoedd a is very difficult for people to understand and, chyfiawnder yn gyffredinol yn ymarferol. frankly, the idea that we might pursue one Mae hynny’n rhywbeth sy’n anodd iawn i without the other seems to us to cause real bobl ei ddeall ac, a dweud y gwir, ymddengys and practical difficulties of persuasion, if that fod y syniad y gallem fynd ar drywydd un is appropriate, or in reflecting the views of heb y llall yn achosi anawsterau gwirioneddol the public in Wales. That is what I was ac ymarferol o ran darbwyllo, os yw hynny’n directing my remarks at. briodol, neu adlewyrchu barn y cyhoedd yng Nghymru. Dyna beth roeddwn yn ceisio ei gyfleu yn fy sylwadau.

I, too, have seen the remarks made by the Rwyf innau, hefyd, wedi gweld y sylwadau a Secretary of State for Justice—whom we met wnaed gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros yesterday during his visit to Wales—about Gyfiawnder-y cyfarfûm ag ef ddoe yn ystod costs, although that was not discussed ei ymweliad â Chymru-am gostau, er na specifically. I saw his press release. The thrafodwyd hynny’n benodol. Gwelais ei difficulty is this: experience shows that that ddatganiad i’r wasg. Yr anhawster yw hyn: there is a tendency and a temptation, perhaps dengys profiad fod tuedd a themtasiwn, nawr now more than ever, to devolve things and to yn fwy nag erioed efallai, i ddatganoli pethau pass over budgets, but perhaps not the whole ac i drosglwyddo cyllidebau, ond o bosibl nid of the budget that was previously used to y gyllideb gyfan a ddefnyddiwyd yn flaenorol cater for those services. That is a principal ar gyfer y gwasanaethau hynny. Mae hynny’n concern about the idea of seeking immediate peri pryder mawr o ran y syniad o geisio devolution of areas of justice, particularly datganoli meysydd cyfiawnder, yn enwedig criminal justice. cyfiawnder troseddol, ar unwaith.

Cymhwysedd Deddfwriaethol Biliau Legislative Competence of Bills

2. Simon Thomas: A wnaiff y Cwnsler 2. Simon Thomas: Will the Counsel General Cyffredinol ddatganiad am oblygiadau make a statement on the implications of the penderfyniad diweddar y Goruchaf Lys ar recent Supreme Court ruling on the Welsh ystyriaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch Government’s consideration on the cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol Biliau. legislative competence of Bills.

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OAQ(4)0042(CGE) OAQ(4)0042(CGE)

Theodore Huckle: The Supreme Court has, Theodore Huckle: Mae’r Goruchaf Lys, in a unanimous judgment, agreed with our mewn dyfarniad unfrydol, wedi cytuno â’n view for a number of reasons—and I am barn am nifer o resymau—ac rwy’n amlwg obviously pleased that it has done so. This yn falch ei fod wedi gwneud hynny. Mae hyn establishes an important principle relating to yn sefydlu egwyddor bwysig sy’n ymwneud the devolution settlement and justifies our â setliad datganoli ac yn cyfiawnhau ein stance in this case and our approach to safiad yn yr achos hwn a’n hymagwedd at legislative competence. gymhwysedd deddfwriaethol.

Simon Thomas: Yn gyntaf, llongyfarchiadau Simon Thomas: First, congratulations on ar eich ymddangosiad cyntaf gerbron y your first appearance before the Supreme Goruchaf Lys ac ar y ffaith ichi lwyddo. Court and for your success there. I hope that Gobeithio y bydd llwyddiant yn dilyn bob you are successful every time, because you tro, gan eich bod yn gwybod i Lywodraeth will know that the Westminster Government San Steffan heddiw ddweud nad yw eto has today said that it is not yet in a position to mewn sefyllfa i ddweud nad oes unrhyw say that there are no competence issues ystyriaethau cymhwysedd i’r Bil organau. attached to the organ donation Bill. Would it Oni fyddai’n well symud mor fuan ag y bo not be better to move as swiftly as possible to modd i system wahanol lle y byddai’n glir pa a different system, under which it would be bwerau sydd wedi’u rhoi i Gymru a pha rai clear which powers are devolved to Wales sydd wedi’u neilltuo i San Steffan? Pa waith and which are reserved by Westminster? y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i symud, What work is the Government doing to move, yng nghyd-destun adroddiad Silk, i wireddu’r in the context of the Silk report, to realise that freuddwyd honno a fyddai, unwaith ac am ambition, putting an end, once and for all, to byth, yn rhoi stop ar yr angen i fynd i’r the need to go the Supreme Court to resolve Goruchaf Lys i ateb problemau datganoli? devolution issues? Theodore Huckle: First, it is the organ Theodore Huckle: Yn gyntaf, Bil transplantation Bill, but of course, I trawsblannu dynol yw’r teitl cywir, ond wrth understand the thrust of the question. As gwrs, rwy’n deall hanfod y cwestiwn. Fel y Members will know, the First Minister gŵyr Aelodau, gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog recently made observations about the sylwadau yn ddiweddar ynghylch pa mor desirability of a move to what some people ddymunol fyddai symud i’r hyn y mae rhai think of as the ‘Scottish model’ of reserved pobl yn ei ystyried yn ‘fodel yr Alban’ o powers devolution. That will, no doubt, form bwerau datganoli a gadwyd yn ôl. Bydd an important part of the discussions and hynny, yn ddiau, yn rhan bwysig o deliberations of the Silk commission. I am drafodaethau comisiwn Silk. Ni chredaf y not sure that I can say very much more about gallaf ddweud llawer mwy am y peth ar hyn it at this stage. o bryd.

Mick Antoniw: The Shadow Secretary of Mick Antoniw: Disgrifiodd Ysgrifennydd State for Wales, Owen Smith, described the Gwladol yr Wrthblaid dros Gymru, Owen challenge as a waste of time and money. Smith, yr her yn wastraff amser ac arian. Yn Undoubtedly, it has cost hundreds of ddi-os, mae wedi costio cannoedd ar filoedd thousands of pounds in public money. o bunnoedd mewn arian cyhoeddus. Fodd However, in the light of the decision— bynnag, yng ngoleuni’r penderfyniad—yn particularly paragraphs 52 to 59—is the enwedig baragraffau 52 i 59—a yw’r Counsel Generals satisfied that the Wales Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn fodlon bod gan Office now has a better understanding of the Swyddfa Cymru bellach ddealltwriaeth well devolution settlement? o’r setliad datganoli?

Theodore Huckle: No. Theodore Huckle: Na.

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Kenneth Skates: I also congratulate the Kenneth Skates: Hoffwn hefyd longyfarch y Counsel General on ensuring that common Cwnsler Cyffredinol ar sicrhau bod synnwyr sense prevailed in the Supreme Court over cyffredin wedi ennill y dydd yn y Goruchaf this Bill. Lys dros y Mesur hwn.

Does the Counsel General agree with me that A yw’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn cytuno â mi the real importance of this ruling is that, mai gwir bwysigrwydd y dyfarniad hwn, o when it comes to drafting legislation and ran drafftio deddfwriaeth a gwneud y gwaith making the devolution settlement work, we setliad datganoli, yw bod angen inni gael yr need to have the necessary legislative arbenigedd deddfwriaethol angenrheidiol o expertise within the Welsh Government that fewn Llywodraeth Cymru a all gyflwyno can deliver good legislation on behalf of the deddfwriaeth dda ar ran pobl Cymru? people of Wales?

Theodore Huckle: There is an important Theodore Huckle: Mae pwynt pwysig yma, point here, and it is partly within the question ac mae’n rhannol o fewn y cwestiwn a as you framed it. Certainly, it is very gyflwynwyd gennych. Yn sicr, mae’n bwysig important that highly skilled draughtsmen are iawn bod ddrafftsmyn medrus ar waith, yn at work, preparing the legislation that passes paratoi’r ddeddfwriaeth sy’n pasio drwy’r through this body. corff hwn.

Perhaps I can make a broader point. Lord Efallai y gallaf wneud pwynt ehangach. Hope, who is the senior Scots judge of the Roedd yr Arglwydd Hope, sef uwch farnwr Supreme Court and, probably, the most yr Alban yn y Goruchaf Lys ac, mae’n debyg, senior jurist that we have in devolution y cyfreithydd uchaf sydd gennym ym maes matters, was at pains to describe the Local datganoli, yn awyddus iawn i ddisgrifio Bil Government Byelaws (Wales) Bill as a very Is-ddeddfau Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) fel well-drafted piece of legislation. That darn o ddeddfwriaeth wedi’i ddrafftio’n dda contrasts rather sharply with the comments iawn. Mae hynny’n gwrthgyferbynnu’n made by commentators and the media in sylweddol â’r sylwadau a wnaed gan Wales and, in one particular respect, by the sylwebyddion a’r cyfryngau yng Nghymru Liberal Democrat Member for North Wales, ac, mewn un ffordd benodol, gan Aelod y who observed that the Government had failed Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y gogledd, a to appreciate the difference between a ddywedodd fod y Llywodraeth wedi methu â draughter and a lawyer. I assure everybody gwerthfawrogi’r gwahaniaeth rhwng here and the people of Wales that the draffstmon a chyfreithiwr. Rhoddaf sicrwydd Government very much appreciates the i bawb yma ac i bobl Cymru fod y difference between a draughter and a lawyer Llywodraeth yn gwerthfawrogi’n fawr y and has worked hard to ensure that high gwahaniaeth rhwng drafftsmon a chyfreithiwr levels of skill are at play in relation to the ac mae wedi gweithio’n galed i sicrhau bod draughting of legislation. lefelau uchel o sgiliau ar waith mewn perthynas â drafftio deddfwriaeth.

I also wish to make an even broader point. It Hoffwn hefyd wneud pwynt hyd yn oed was with some irritation that the team—if I ehangach. Gwrandawodd y tîm—os gallaf ei can call it that—and I listened to the alw’n hynny—a minnau gyda chryn ddicter observations that were made in the run-up to ar y sylwadau a wnaed yn y cyfnod cyn the Supreme Court hearing, to the effect that gwrandawiad y Goruchaf Lys, yn awgrymu y the Welsh Government should have listened dylai Llywodraeth Cymru fod wedi gwrando to the warnings emanating from the Wales ar y rhybuddion gan Swyddfa Cymru, gan Office, asking how could it have got it so ofyn sut y gallai wedi bod mor anghywir a wrong and why did it not listen to what it was pham na wrandawodd ar yr hyn yr oedd being told by London about what the law Llundain yn ei ddweud wrthi am y gyfraith. was. Therefore, it is a particular pleasure that Felly, mae’n bleser arbennig ein bod wedi we won five-nil in the Supreme Court on all ennill o bump i ddim yn y Goruchaf Lys ar

31 28/11/2012 matters. The Supreme Court agreed with bob mater. Cytunodd y Goruchaf Lys gyda every aspect of our position. I am not phob agwedd ar ein sefyllfa. Nid wyf yn complacent and I am not sanguine; we could hunanfodlon, ac nid wyf yn obeithiol; gallem have another argument and lose—of course gael dadl arall a cholli—wrth gwrs. Gall we could. That can always happen in a legal hynny bob amser ddigwydd mewn achos case. However, the point that I am trying to cyfreithiol. Fodd bynnag, y pwynt rwy’n make is that it is very important that the work ceisio ei wneud yw ei bod yn bwysig iawn na of the Assembly is not undermined on an chaiff gwaith y Cynulliad ei danseilio ar sail improper basis by those—including amhriodol gan y rheiny—gan gynnwys Members—seeking to make political points, Aelodau—sy’n ceisio gwneud pwyntiau because there are no political points to make gwleidyddol, oherwydd nid oes unrhyw here. The work of draughters and lawyers in bwyntiau gwleidyddol i’w gwneud yma. Nid the Welsh Government’s Legal Service is not mater i’r pleidiau gwleidyddol yw gwaith a party-political matter at all. They work very drafftsmyn a chyfreithwyr yng Ngwasanaeth hard and are a highly skilled group of Cyfreithiol Llywodraeth Cymru. Maent yn lawyers. I am pleased to work with them and gweithio’n galed iawn ac yn grŵp hynod they were right. fedrus o gyfreithwyr. Mae’n bleser gennyf weithio gyda nhw ac roeddent yn gywir.

Joyce Watson: I would also like to Joyce Watson: Hoffwn hefyd longyfarch y congratulate the Counsel General for the part Cwnsler Cyffredinol am y rhan y mae’n rhaid that he must have played in delivering the ei fod wedi’i chwarae wrth gyflwyno Supreme Court’s decision. Now that that penderfyniad y Goruchaf Lys. Nawr bod y ruling has been made, did you share my dyfarniad wedi’i wneud, a wnaethoch rannu frustration, and that of those around us, when fy rhwystredigaeth innau, a’r rheiny o’n the challenge was made, about the usual cwmpas, pan gyflwynwyd yr her, ynghylch y irritating presumption in some quarters—in rhagdybiaeth gythruddol arferol mewn rhai the London media and commentariat—that, if mannau—yn y cyfryngau yn Llundain ac London challenged Cardiff on a point of law, ymhlith y newyddiadurwyr a’r darlledwyr— such as was the case with the byelaws Bill, pe bai Llundain yn herio Caerdydd ar fater o London must be right? Does this ruling gyfraith, fel yn achos y Bil Is-ddeddfau, yna smash the myth that London is always right? mae’n rhaid mai Llundain oedd yn iawn? A yw’r dyfarniad hwn yn chwalu’r myth bod Llundain bob amser yn iawn?

Theodore Huckle: I do not know about Theodore Huckle: Wn i ddim am chwalu’r smashing the myth but, as I have already myth, ond, fel y dywedais eisoes, yr ateb i’ch said, the answer to your question is ‘yes’. cwestiwn yw ‘do’.

Cwestiynau i Gomisiwn y Cynulliad Questions to the Assembly Commission

The Presiding Officer: The question that Y Llywydd: Mae’r cwestiwn a gyflwynwyd i was submitted to the Assembly Commission, Gomisiwn y Cynulliad, OAQ(4)0067(AC), OAQ(4)0067(AC), has been transferred for wedi'i drosglwyddo i'w ateb yn ysgrifenedig. written answer.

Cynnig i Ddiwygio Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6 mewn perthynas â Chadeiryddion Dros Dro yn y Cyfarfod Llawn Motion to Amend Standing Order No. 6 in relation to the Temporary Chair of Plenary Meetings

Cynnig NDM5104 Rosemary Butler Motion NDM5104 Rosemary Butler

Cynnig bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn To propose that the National Assembly, in

32 28/11/2012 unol â Rheol Sefydlog 33.2: accordance with Standing Order 33.2:

1. Yn ystyried Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Busnes 1. Considers the Report of the Business ‘Diwygiadau arfaethedig i Reol Sefydlog Committee ‘Proposed amendments to 6.23: Cadeiryddion Dros Dro yn y Standing Order 6.23: Temporary Chair of Cyfarfodydd Llawn’ a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Plenary Meetings’ laid in the Table Office on Gyflwyno ar 21 Tachwedd 2012; a 21 November 2012; and

2. Yn cymeradwyo’r cynnig i adolygu Rheol 2. Approves the proposal to revise Standing Sefydlog 6, fel y nodir yn Atodiadau B i Order 6, as set out in Annex B of the Report Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Busnes. of the Business Committee.

William Graham: I move the motion. William Graham: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is to Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y agree the motion. Are there any objections? cynnig. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau? Nid There are no objections; therefore, the motion oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau; felly, caiff y is agreed in accordance with Standing Order cynnig ei gytuno yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog No. 12.36. Rhif 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion agreed.

Dadl gan Aelodau Unigol o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 11.21(iv) Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order No. 11.21(iv)

Iechyd Meddwl Mental Health

Cynnig NDM5096 Kenneth Skates, Eluned Motion NDM5096 Kenneth Skates, Eluned Parrott, David Melding, Llyr Huws Gruffydd Parrott, David Melding, Llŷr Huws Gruffydd

Mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: The National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn cydnabod ac yn gresynu bod pobl sydd 1. Recognises and regrets that people with â phroblemau iechyd meddwl yn dioddef mental health problems experience stigma stigma a gwahaniaethu; and discrimination;

2. Yn croesawu Amser i Newid Cymru, sef yr 2. Welcomes Time to Change Wales, the first ymgyrch genedlaethol gyntaf i roi terfyn ar y national campaign to end the stigma and stigma a’r gwahaniaethu y mae pobl sydd â discrimination faced by people with mental phroblemau iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru yn health problems in Wales; eu hwynebu;

3. Yn nodi’r gwaith ymchwil a gynhaliwyd yn 3. Notes the recent research carried out by ddiweddar gan Amser i Newid Cymru, a oedd Time to Change Wales, which showed that: yn dangos bod: a) un ym mhob pedwar yn credu na ddylid a) 1 in 4 people believe that people with caniatáu i bobl sydd â phroblemau iechyd mental health problems should not be meddwl fod mewn swydd gyhoeddus; a allowed to hold public office; and b) un ym mhob 10 yn credu na ddylid b) 1 in 10 people believe that people with caniatáu i bobl sydd â phroblemau iechyd mental health problems should not be meddwl gael plant; allowed to have children;

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4. Yn cydnabod bod pobl sydd â materion 4. Recognises that people with mental health iechyd meddwl yn chwarae rhan sylweddol issues play significant roles in society, work mewn cymdeithas, yn gweithio ar draws across a range of sectors and make important ystod o sectorau ac yn gwneud cyfraniadau contributions to the economy; and pwysig at yr economi; a

5. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i gefnogi’r 5. Calls on the Welsh Government to support ymgyrch Amser i Newid Cymru a dangos the Time to Change Wales campaign and ymrwymiad i roi terfyn ar y stigma a’r demonstrate a commitment to ending mental gwahaniaethu sy’n gysylltiedig ag iechyd health stigma and discrimination. meddwl.

Eluned Parrott: I move the motion in my Eluned Parrott: Cynigiaf y cynnig yn fy name and in the names of Kenneth Skates, enw i ac yn enwau Kenneth Skates, David David Melding and Llyr Huws Gruffydd, and Melding a Llyr Huws Gruffydd, a chydag with the name of Rebecca Evans in support. enw Rebecca Evans yn ei gefnogi.

I would like to thank the Business Committee Hoffwn ddiolch i'r Pwyllgor Busnes am for selecting this debate for discussion today ddewis y ddadl hon ar gyfer y drafodaeth and I thank, in advance, the Members who heddiw a diolch, ymlaen llaw, i’r Aelodau hope to contribute. The subject is one that is sy'n gobeithio cyfrannu. Mae'r pwnc yn un close to my heart but, as I also hope to show, sy'n agos at fy nghalon, ond, fel yr wyf hefyd it is a major challenge for Wales as a society. yn gobeithio ei ddangos, mae'n her fawr i The purpose of today’s debate is not only to Gymru fel cymdeithas. Pwrpas y ddadl raise awareness of the stigma and heddiw yw nid yn unig codi ymwybyddiaeth discrimination faced by people with mental o'r stigma a'r gwahaniaethu a wynebir gan ill health, but to challenge some of the bobl â salwch meddwl, ond herio rhai o'r preconceptions that people have. The Time to rhagdybiaethau sydd gan bobl. Nod ymgyrch Change Wales campaign from Mind Cymru, Amser i Newid Cymru gan Mind Cymru, Gofal and Hafal aims to tackle these Gofal a Hafal yw mynd i'r afael â'r preconceptions and encourage people to rhagdybiaethau hyn ac annog pobl i siarad er speak out to end discrimination. mwyn rhoi diwedd ar wahaniaethu.

2.30 p.m.

Sadly, research conducted on behalf of the Yn anffodus, mae ymchwil a gynhaliwyd ar campaign really shows the size of the ran yr ymgyrch yn dangos gwir faint yr her challenge they face. As quoted in the motion sy'n eu hwynebu. Fel y dyfynnir yn y cynnig today, one in four people believe that people heddiw, mae un o bob pedwar person o’r farn with mental health problems should not be na ddylai pobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl allowed to hold public office, and one in 10 gael yr hawl i ddal swydd gyhoeddus, ac mae believe that they should not be allowed to un o bob 10 o’r farn na ddylent gael yr hawl i have children. The research also uncovered gael plant. Mae'r ymchwil hefyd yn datgelu other shocking statistics: for example, one in ystadegau brawychus eraill: er enghraifft, 10 of the research’s respondents said that dywedodd un o bob 10 o ymatebwyr yr people with mental health problems are less ymchwil fod pobl â phroblemau iechyd trustworthy, and one in five respondents meddwl yn llai dibynadwy, ac roedd un o bob believe that they are unpredictable. One in pump o ymatebwyr o’r farn eu bod yn four said that they would feel uncomfortable anrhagweladwy. Dywedodd un o bob pedwar even being in the presence of someone with y byddent yn teimlo'n anghyfforddus hyd yn mental health problems. The truth is, of oed ym mhresenoldeb rhywun â phroblemau course, that as a quarter of the population will iechyd meddwl. Y gwir yw, wrth gwrs, gan y suffer from mental ill health during the bydd chwarter y boblogaeth yn dioddef o course of their lives, the chances are that, salwch meddwl yn ystod eu bywydau, ei bod

34 28/11/2012 right now, you are in the presence of yn debygol eich bod, yn awr, ym someone who now has, has in the past, or mhresenoldeb rhywun sydd â phroblem will have in the future, a mental health iechyd meddwl yn awr, sydd wedi yn y problem; it is just that if you know about it, it gorffennol neu a fydd yn y dyfodol; ond pe might change the way in which you view that baech yn gwybod am y peth, gallai newid y person and interact with them. ffordd yr ydych yn gweld y person hwnnw ac yn rhyngweithio ag ef.

It is bad enough that the stigma causes those Mae'n ddigon gwael bod y stigma yn achosi individuals additional pain, but what is even poen ychwanegol i’r unigolion hynny, ond yr more concerning is that the fear of being hyn sy’n peri mwy o bryder fyth yw y gall yr labelled can actively prevent people from ofn o gael eu labelu atal pobl rhag gofyn am seeking the help they need and that has to be yr help sydd ei angen arnynt ac mae'n rhaid challenged. Certainly, that was true for me. I herio hynny. Yn sicr, yr oedd hynny’n wir i suffered from postnatal depression after the mi. Cefais iselder ôl-enedigol ar ôl geni fy birth of both of my children and that fear of nau blentyn ac roedd yr ofn hwnnw o beth y what other people would think of me stopped byddai pobl eraill yn ei feddwl ohonof yn fy me from admitting I had a problem. I rhwystro rhag cyfaddef fod gennyf broblem. struggled on my own for months and that was Ceisiais ymdopi ar fy mhen fy hun am a huge strain on my family because I did not fisoedd ac yr oedd hynny'n straen enfawr ar want to face the truth. However, I have been fy nheulu am nad oeddwn am wynebu'r gwir. very lucky; I have a fantastic doctor and I had Fodd bynnag, rwyf wedi bod yn ffodus iawn; a fantastic health visitor, who spotted the mae gen i feddyg gwych ac roedd gen i warning signs and helped me put my life ymwelydd iechyd gwych, a sylwodd ar yr back together very early. I also had a very arwyddion a’m helpu i ddod ataf fy hun yn supportive employer in Cardiff University, gynnar iawn. Roedd gen i gyflogwr cefnogol which reorganised my work without iawn hefyd ym Mhrifysgol Caerdydd, a ad- demoting me and gave me access to its own drefnodd fy ngwaith heb ddiraddio fy swydd staff counselling service and was generally a sicrhau fy mod yn gallu defnyddio ei very supportive. It was exemplary in showing wasanaeth cwnsela staff ei hun ac roedd yn how an employer can respond to staff with gyffredinol yn gefnogol iawn. Roedd yn mental health problems in a positive way and esiampl o’r ffordd y gall cyflogwr ymateb i get more out of its staff as a result. I never staff sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl took a single day’s sick leave because of my mewn ffordd gadarnhaol a chael mwy allan depression and I ended up taking on new o’r staff o ganlyniad. Ni chollais ddiwrnod o responsibilities and new work and becoming waith oherwydd fy iselder ac ymgymerais â promoted as a result. However, the decision chyfrifoldebau newydd a gwaith newydd a as to whether to tell an employer is a very chefais fy nyrchafu yn sgil hynny. Fodd difficult one; it depends very much on the bynnag, mae'r penderfyniad ynghylch a individual employer and it is particularly ddylid dweud wrth gyflogwr yn un anodd challenging when your illness is at its worst. iawn; mae'n dibynnu i raddau helaeth ar y cyflogwr unigol ac mae'n arbennig o heriol pan fydd eich salwch ar ei waethaf.

It is also difficult to explain to someone who Mae hefyd yn anodd esbonio i rywun nad yw has never experienced mental ill health what erioed wedi profi salwch meddwl sut deimlad it can feel like to be depressed. The closest ydyw i fod yn isel. Y teimlad emosiynol emotional parallel I can think of is a feeling agosaf y gallaf feddwl amdano yw teimlad o of senseless, open-ended grief, and that pain alar disynnwyr, penagored a gall y boen can be so intense and so all-consuming that it honno fod mor ddwys ac mor hollysol fel ei crushes out every other thought or feeling fod yn gwasgu pob teimlad arall allan o’ch from your mind. Very quickly, you find that meddwl. Yn gyflym iawn, byddwch yn your life is all about that pain, to the point canfod bod y boen yn llenwi’ch bywyd, i’r that, sometimes, you will cling to absolutely pwynt, weithiau, y byddwch yn glynu at anything that you think will take that pain unrhyw beth y credwch fydd yn lleddfu’r

35 28/11/2012 away from you. It has a profound effect, boen honno. Mae'n cael effaith ddifrifol, therefore, on your family life and felly, ar eich bywyd teuluol a’ch relationships. cydberthnasau.

My second bout of postnatal depression was Roedd fy ail gyfnod o iselder ôl-enedigol yn very serious and it stopped me from bonding ddifrifol iawn ac fe wnaeth fy atal rhag dod properly with the new baby. One sad yn agos at y babi newydd. Un atgof trist o’r reminder of that time is that I have only one cyfnod hwnnw yw mai dim ond un llun o fy photograph of my daughter as a young baby. merch sydd gen i yn fabi bach. Nid yw'r Those first four months are not recorded, and pedwar mis cyntaf hynny wedi cael eu sadly, because of the illness, I cannot cofnodi, ac yn anffodus, oherwydd y salwch, remember that time very clearly either—the ni allaf gofio’r amser hwnnw yn glir iawn illness robbed that from my family. Looking ychwaith—cafodd hwnnw ei ddwyn oddi back, I had become so detached from my life wrth fy nheulu gan y salwch. Wrth edrych yn that I was not really living in it anymore. ôl, roeddwn wedi datgysylltu cymaint o’m bywyd fel nad oeddwn wir yn ei fyw mwyach.

Illnesses such as depression can leave people Gall salwch fel iselder beri i bobl deimlo'n feeling isolated, vulnerable and disorientated, ynysig, yn agored i niwed ac yn ddryslyd, but the stigma that people face adds insult to ond mae’r stigma y mae pobl yn ei wynebu that very real injury. Open discrimination is yn rhoi halen yn y briw hwnnw. Mae less common than it used to be, but those gwahaniaethu agored yn llai cyffredin nag yr prejudices still manifest themselves in subtle arferai fod, ond mae’r rhagfarnau hynny yn ways. Friends disappear, families struggle to dal i amlygu eu hunain mewn ffyrdd cynnil. talk to you and employers take responsibility Mae ffrindiau yn diflannu, teuluoedd yn ei away from you because they assume you will chael hi'n anodd siarad â chi a chyflogwyr yn not be able to cope. All this adds to the sense cymryd cyfrifoldeb oddi wrthych am eu bod of loss and undermines your self-worth at a yn cymryd yn ganiataol na fyddwch yn gallu time when that is most vulnerable and when ymdopi. Mae hyn i gyd yn ychwanegu at yr it is most important to you. ymdeimlad o golled ac yn tanseilio eich hunanwerth ar adeg pan fo hynny ar ei isaf a phan fo bwysicaf i chi.

Prejudice can come from the most surprising Gall rhagfarn ddod o'r ffynonellau mwyaf sources. In my own dealings with the medical rhyfeddol. Yn fy ymwneud fy hun â'r profession, I found that there were still proffesiwn meddygol, canfûm fod unigolion individuals who, while well-meaning, were o hyd na allent, er bod ganddynt fwriadau da, not able to deal effectively with me, for ddelio'n effeithiol â mi, er enghraifft, y example, the rather brusque doctor who told meddyg swta a ddywedodd wrthyf, 'Collwch me, ‘Lose weight; if you looked better, you bwysau; pe baech yn edrych yn well, would feel better about yourself’. Now, let us byddech yn teimlo'n well amdanoch eich be fair, he has a point, but it is not the most hun'. Nawr, a bod yn deg, mae ganddo sensitive thing a man has ever said to a bwynt, ond nid dyma'r peth mwyaf sensitif i crying woman, is it now? In the depressed ddyn erioed ei ddweud wrth fenyw sy’n crio, mothers workshops that I was sent to, in the a gytunwch? Yn y gweithdai i famau isel y sixth session of six, when you would have cefais fy anfon iddynt, yn y chweched sesiwn hoped that she would have known us better, o chwech, pan fyddech wedi gobeithio y the course leader suggested to a group of four byddai’n ein hadnabod yn well, awgrymodd professional women that we go on a basic arweinydd y cwrs i grŵp o bedair o fenywod literacy course to improve our self-esteem. proffesiynol y dylem fynd ar gwrs There are underlying assumptions here that llythrennedd sylfaenol i wella ein hunan- people who have had a mental health barch. Mae tybiaethau sylfaenol yma fod problem are somehow less capable than those pobl sydd wedi cael problem iechyd meddwl who have not. That is not the case. The truth rywsut yn llai galluog na'r rhai heb broblem

36 28/11/2012 is that mental ill health can affect anyone. It o’r fath. Nid yw hynny’n wir. Y gwir yw y takes no account of age, sex, colour, faith, gall salwch meddwl effeithio ar unrhyw un. how educated you are, how important you Nid yw’n ystyried oedran, rhyw, lliw, ffydd, are, where you live, or where you came from. pa mor addysgedig ydych chi, pa mor bwysig It is indiscriminate in a way that our society ydych chi, ble rydych chi'n byw, nac o ble is not yet. We will still have a job to do while rydych chi’n dod. Nid yw’n gwahaniaethu that is still the case. mewn ffordd nad yw ein cymdeithas eto. Bydd gennym swydd i’w chyflawni o hyd tra bod hynny’n dal yn wir.

I believe that my experiences have made me Credaf fod fy mhrofiadau wedi fy ngwneud a stronger person, not a weaker one. Having yn berson cryfach, nid gwannach. Yn sgil to rebuild my life forced me to reassess my gorfod ailadeiladu fy mywyd cefais fy priorities, and to think about what was ngorfodi i ailasesu fy mlaenoriaethau, a important to me. It focused my mind on the meddwl am yr hyn oedd yn bwysig i mi. things that really matter in my life. It Canolbwyntiodd fy meddwl ar y pethau sy'n challenged my own prejudices, and made me wirioneddol bwysig yn fy mywyd. Heriodd face up to uncomfortable truths about myself, fy rhagfarnau fy hun, a gwnaeth imi wynebu and about my own thoughts and feelings. I gwirioneddau anghysurus amdanaf i fy hun, believe that it has also made me a much more ac am fy meddyliau a'm teimladau fy hun. empathetic person, so that when someone Credaf ei fod hefyd wedi fy ngwneud yn comes to me in trouble and distress, I really berson mwy empathetig o lawer, felly pan do understand how they feel. I am much less fydd rhywun yn dod ataf mewn trafferth a judgmental because I know what it feels like gofid, gallaf ddeall yn union sut y maent yn to be judged. teimlo. Rwy’n llawer llai beirniadol am fy mod yn gwybod sut deimlad ydyw cael fy marnu.

My hope is that today’s debate will Fy ngobaith yw y bydd y ddadl heddiw yn encourage our society as a whole to be more annog ein cymdeithas yn gyffredinol i fod yn open about mental ill health. However, I fwy agored am salwch meddwl. Fodd recognise that, for each individual, the bynnag, rwy'n cydnabod, i bob unigolyn, fod decision as to whether to talk about it or not y penderfyniad ynghylch a ddylid siarad am y is a very personal one. You have to know that peth ai peidio yn un personol iawn. Mae'n it is right for you. However, I also want to rhaid ichi wybod ei fod yn iawn i chi. Fodd send a message to anyone listening today bynnag, rwyf hefyd am anfon neges at who is currently suffering from depression, unrhyw un sy’n gwrando heddiw sydd ar hyn and that is: even from the darkest places, you o bryd yn dioddef o iselder, sef: hyd yn oed can come back. However difficult it might be o'r mannau tywyllaf, gallwch ddod yn ôl. right now, you can fight it. I know that, Waeth pa mor anodd y gallai fod nawr, because I have. gallwch ei frwydro. Gwn fod hynny’n wir, am fy mod i wedi gwneud hynny.

David Rees: Mental illness is seen as one of David Rees: Mae salwch meddwl yn cael ei the greatest causes of misery in our society, ystyried fel un o achosion mwyaf trallod yn and it indiscriminately touches individuals ein cymdeithas, ac mae'n effeithio’n and families across Wales. How many times ddiwahân ar unigolion a theuluoedd ledled have we heard in this Chamber that a quarter Cymru. Sawl gwaith yr ydym ni wedi clywed of us will experience mental health problems, yn y Siambr hon y bydd chwarter ohonom yn or mental illness, at some point in our life? profi problemau iechyd meddwl, neu salwch Today, we have seen Assembly Members meddwl, ar ryw adeg yn ein bywyd? Heddiw, step outside the bubble in which we normally rydym wedi gweld Aelodau'r Cynulliad yn find ourselves, and we have heard from some camu y tu allan i'r swigen yr ydym fel arfer of those one in four people. We can see how yn rhan ohoni, ac rydym wedi clywed gan rai close it comes to us. I hugely respect their o'r un o bob pedwar hynny. Gallwn weld pa

37 28/11/2012 actions today. These people have experienced mor agos y mae’n effeithio arnom. Rwy'n it and, by sharing their personal experiences, parchu eu gweithredoedd heddiw yn enfawr. they wish to encourage others to realise that it Mae'r bobl hyn wedi ei brofi a, thrwy rannu is not a stigma, and that it can be tackled. eu profiadau personol, meant am annog eraill i sylweddoli nad yw’n stigma, ac y gellir mynd i’r afael ag ef.

Others of us may see it when a close family Gall eraill ohonom ei weld pan fydd aelod member suffers, and we then understand the agos o'r teulu yn dioddef, ac yna byddwn yn hardships that are faced by the individual deall y caledi a wynebir gan yr unigolyn wrth when seeking support and treatment. They geisio cymorth a thriniaeth. Maent yn aml yn often want to keep details suppressed, or, at awyddus i gadw manylion yn breifat, neu, o best, confined within a close circle of friends leiaf, wedi’u cyfyngu o fewn cylch agos o and family with whom they feel comfortable. ffrindiau a theulu y maent yn teimlo'n Coping with a mental health condition is gyfforddus â hwy. Mae ymdopi â chyflwr difficult enough, without the added burden of iechyd meddwl yn ddigon anodd, heb y baich overcoming discrimination. However, all too ychwanegol o oresgyn gwahaniaethu. Fodd often, people with mental health problems bynnag, yn rhy aml, mae pobl â phroblemau find that their lives are blighted by the iechyd meddwl yn cael bod eu bywydau prejudice, ignorance and fear that surround wedi’u difetha gan y rhagfarn, yr them. We are not just talking about anwybodaeth a’r ofn sydd o'u cwmpas. Nid occasional bullying, or the odd insensitive dim ond am fwlio achlysurol, neu bortread depiction in the media, we are talking about ansensitif yn y cyfryngau o bryd i’w gilydd the innate discrimination that acts as a barrier yr ydym yn sôn, ond am y gwahaniaethu to almost every aspect of a healthy life. cynhenid sy'n gweithredu fel rhwystr i bron bob agwedd ar fywyd iach.

Due to that stigma, secrecy appears to be a Oherwydd y stigma hwnnw, ymddengys fod natural, adaptive response to dealing with this cyfrinachedd yn ymateb naturiol, ymaddasol i illness. On a daily basis, secrecy has stopped ddelio â'r salwch hwn. O ddydd i ddydd, mae people from working, from socialising, or cyfrinachedd wedi atal pobl rhag gweithio, from living a full life. On top of this, it has rhag cymdeithasu, neu rhag byw bywyd i’r stopped as many as two thirds of people who eithaf. At hyn, mae wedi rhwystro cynifer â have mental ill health from seeking dau o bob tri pherson sydd â salwch meddwl treatment. When they seek treatment, there is rhag ceisio triniaeth. Pan fyddant yn ceisio concern as to whether they will receive the triniaeth, mae pryder ynghylch a fyddant yn appropriate care and recognition of their cael y gofal a’r gydnabyddiaeth briodol o'u condition. A recent report from Gofal has cyflwr. Mae adroddiad diweddar gan Gofal indicated that 62% of people waited more wedi nodi bod 62% o bobl wedi aros mwy na than a month for a comprehensive mental mis am asesiad iechyd meddwl cynhwysfawr health assessment with their GP and 37% gyda'u meddyg teulu a bod 37% wedi aros waited longer than three months. Also, nearly mwy na thri mis. Hefyd, dywedodd bron half said that their treatment only partly hanner mai dim ond yn rhannol yr oedd eu addressed their problems, or did not help at triniaeth wedi mynd i’r afael â’u problemau, all. neu nad oedd wedi helpu o gwbl.

I wish to give the example of a young Dymunaf roi enghraifft o un o’m hetholwyr constituent of mine who has experienced ifanc sydd wedi dioddef ymddygiad tebyg. similar behaviour. That person was diagnosed Cafodd ei diagnosio ag anhwylder deubegwn, with bi-polar disorder, which affected the a oedd yn effeithio ar y teulu cyfan yn whole family considerably. She was placed sylweddol. Cafodd ei rhoi ar feddyginiaeth a on a medication that, unfortunately, left her barodd iddi, yn anffodus, fod yn flinedig very tired and wanting to sleep all day. That iawn ac eisiau cysgu drwy'r dydd. Nid yw is not a recipe for helping that person back hynny'n ei helpu i ddychwelyd i'r gwaith a'r into work and the wider society. This young gymdeithas ehangach. Roedd ar lwfans ceisio

38 28/11/2012 person was on jobseeker’s allowance and gwaith ac yn wirioneddol awyddus i gael desperately wanted to get a job, so she swydd, felly rhoddodd y gorau i gymryd y stopped taking the medication to ensure a feddyginiaeth er mwyn sicrhau bod ei phen clear head and the ability to present herself in yn glir a'i bod yn gallu cyflwyno ei hun a good light to prospective employers. mewn goleuni da i ddarpar gyflogwyr. Yn Unfortunately, this also impacted on her anffodus, effeithiodd hyn hefyd ar ei behaviour and sleep patterns. Her next hymddygiad a’i phatrymau cwsg. Roedd ei appointment with the specialist was five hapwyntiad nesaf gyda'r arbenigwr bum mis i months away, so a visit to the GP was the ffwrdd, felly roedd ymweld â’r meddyg teulu natural choice. A 5.00 p.m. appointment yn ddewis naturiol. Trefnwyd apwyntiad am resulted in a one and a half hour wait to see 5.00pm ond bu’n rhaid iddi aros am awr a the GP, where she explained her hanner i weld ei meddyg teulu, lle yr circumstances while in an emotional state. It esboniodd ei hamgylchiadau tra mewn cyflwr ended up with the doctor, who was ready to emosiynol. Daeth ei hapwyntiad i ben gyda’r go home, shrugging his shoulders, and asking meddyg, a oedd yn barod i fynd adref, yn what she wanted him to do. A quick solution codi ei ysgwyddau, ac yn gofyn beth oedd am was prescribed, with the previous medication iddo ei wneud. Rhagnodwyd ateb cyflym, at a lower dosage. That person went home in gyda’r feddyginiaeth flaenorol ar ddogn is. tears, and in a state of confusion and Aeth adref yn ei dagrau, ac mewn cyflwr o helplessness. Since then, that young person ddryswch a diymadferthedd. Ers hynny, mae has struggled on, not able to take the new wedi ei chael hi’n anodd, heb allu cymryd y medication as it would have meant that she feddyginiaeth newydd gan y byddai wedi would not be able to work or drive, and her golygu na allai weithio na gyrru, ac mae ei family feel let down by her GP. Stigma must theulu yn teimlo bod ei meddyg teulu wedi eu be tackled in society, but we must also ensure siomi. Rhaid mynd i'r afael â stigma yn y that the care services provide the desperately gymdeithas, ond rhaid inni hefyd sicrhau bod needed support and treatment in a timely y gwasanaethau gofal yn darparu'r cymorth manner. What do we see on the occasions a’r driniaeth sydd eu hangen yn enbyd mewn when that does not happen? I think that what modd amserol. Beth a welwn ar yr this is really telling us is that the attitude of achlysuron pa na fydd hynny’n digwydd? GPs and waiting times need to improve—not Credaf mai’r hyn a ddysgwn mewn my words, but those of Gofal director, Ewan gwirionedd yw bod angen i agweddau Hilton. meddygon teulu ac amseroedd aros wella— nid fy ngeiriau i, ond geiriau cyfarwyddwr Gofal, Ewan Hilton.

As a final point, to further emphasise why Fel pwynt olaf, er mwyn pwysleisio this is something that can no longer be swept ymhellach pam bod hyn yn rhywbeth na ellir under the carpet, the World Health ei anwybyddu mwyach, mae Sefydliad Organization predicts that by 2030 Iechyd y Byd yn rhagweld erbyn 2030 mai depression will be the leading cause of iselder fydd prif achos salwch corfforol neu physical or mental illness around the world. salwch meddwl ledled y byd. Yn ôl Sefydliad According to the World Health Organization, Iechyd y Byd, mae iselder yn fwy llesteiriol depression is more disabling than angina, nag angina, arthritis, asthma a diabetes. arthritis, asthma and diabetes. I am pleased Rwy’n falch bod cydnabyddiaeth yma, yng that here, in Wales, there is recognition of the Nghymru, o’r effaith debygol os na chymerir impending impact if no action is taken. I unrhyw gamau gweithredu. Rwy'n canmol applaud the Time to Change campaign, ymgyrch Amser i Newid, sy'n mynd i’r afael which attacks the stigma that many face, and â’r stigma a wynebir gan lawer, ac yn canmol I seriously applaud those Members here o ddifrif yr Aelodau hynny yma heddiw sy’n today who are speaking of their own siarad am eu profiadau eu hunain. experiences.

David Melding: We should all celebrate the David Melding: Dylai pob un ohonom launch of the Time to Change campaign in ddathlu lansiad ymgyrch Amser i Newid yng

39 28/11/2012

Wales. It was a wonderfully successful Nghymru. Bu’n ymgyrch hynod lwyddiannus campaign in England and is still running. It yn Lloegr ac mae’n dal i redeg. Mae wedi ei has been modified for Wales and will be an haddasu i Gymru a bydd yn llwyddiant outstanding success. It aims to end stigma ysgubol. Ei nod yw rhoi terfyn ar stigma a and I think that that is a wonderful objective. chredaf fod hynny yn amcan gwych. Mae'n It is quite remarkable that one in four people eithaf rhyfeddol bod un o bob pedwar person believe that those with mental health yn credu na ddylai'r rhai sydd â phroblemau problems or who have had them in the past iechyd meddwl neu sydd wedi cael should not hold public office. I have to say, problemau o’r fath yn y gorffennol ddal as a Welsh Conservative, I am used to the swydd gyhoeddus. Rhaid imi ddweud, fel fact that three out of four people in Wales do Ceidwadwr Cymreig, rwyf wedi arfer â’r not believe that Tories should hold public ffaith nad yw tri o bob pedwar person yng office. [Laughter.] However, I believe that Nghymru yn credu y dylai Torïaid ddal that is based on political preference and not swydd gyhoeddus. [Chwerthin.] Fodd on any assessment of one’s medical health. bynnag, credaf fod hynny'n seiliedig ar ddewis gwleidyddol ac nid ar unrhyw asesiad o iechyd meddygol unigolion.

We need to challenge these perceptions Mae angen inni herio'r canfyddiadau hyn am because they inadvertently hold many in the eu bod yn anfwriadol yn gwaethygu sefyllfa lock of illness and anxiety when they could llawer sy’n wynebu salwch a gorbryder pan be on the road to recovery. This stigma stems allent fod ar wella. Mae'r stigma hwn yn from fear because it is so pervasive; mental deillio o ofn oherwydd ei fod mor dreiddiol; illness is a common condition and people mae salwch meddwl yn gyflwr cyffredin ac often fear talking about common conditions, yn aml mae pobl yn ofni siarad am gyflyrau perhaps psychologically because they fear cyffredin, efallai am resymau seicolegol catching them in some strange way, as if they oherwydd eu bod yn ofni eu dal mewn rhyw were contagious. ffordd ryfedd, fel pe baent yn heintus.

The human mind is probably the most Y meddwl dynol yn ôl pob tebyg yw un o’r wonderful creation in the universe. We may creadigaethau mwyaf rhyfeddol yn y meet more intelligent Martians at some bydysawd. Efallai y byddwn yn cwrdd â point—who knows what will happen in the Marsiaid mwy deallus ar ryw bwynt—pwy a future—but until that point, we have ŵyr beth fydd yn digwydd yn y dyfodol— inherited biology’s most wonderful creation, ond tan hynny, rydym wedi etifeddu namely the human brain. However, with this creadigaeth fwyaf rhyfeddol bioleg, sef yr awesome gift comes a sense of vulnerability ymennydd dynol. Fodd bynnag, gyda’r rhodd because we are occasionally prone to mental anhygoel hwn daw ymdeimlad o fod yn distress. The complexity of the brain has agored i niwed am ein bod o bryd i’w gilydd many side-effects, but I am sure that we all yn dueddol o wynebu trallod meddwl. Mae believe that the powers of the imagination gan gymhlethdod yr ymennydd lawer o sgîl- and the way in which we can anticipate effeithiau, ond rwy’n siŵr ein bod i gyd yn things in general, so that we can improve our credu bod pwerau’r dychymyg a'r ffordd y lives, is a glory and what human achievement gallwn ragweld pethau yn gyffredinol, fel y has been based on. However, if you can gallwn wella ein bywydau, yn ogoniant ac anticipate good things, you can also mai ar hyn y seiliwyd cyflawniad dynol. anticipate bad things—you can worry about Fodd bynnag, os gallwch ragweld pethau da, them—and only a slight imbalance in the gallwch hefyd ragweld pethau gwael— brain’s chemistry can make many people gallwch boeni amdanynt—a dim ond more prone to life’s trials and tribulations, anghydbwysedd bach yng nghemeg yr which may seem very routine to others. ymennydd all wneud pobl yn fwy agored i hynt a helynt bywyd, a all ymddangos yn gyffredin iawn i bobl eraill.

Let us remember that few of us will enjoy the Gadewch inni gofio mai ychydig ohonom

40 28/11/2012 normal full span of life without a significant fydd yn mwynhau rhychwant llawn arferol illness or disability. It is part of the human bywyd heb salwch neu anabledd sylweddol. condition to be ill. It has led to many of our Mae bod yn sâl yn rhan o’r cyflwr dynol. most basic, profound and humane attitudes; it Mae wedi arwain at lawer o'n hagweddau is nothing to be ashamed of. You may be one mwyaf sylfaenol, dwys a thrugarog; nid yw’n of life’s most extraordinary people and sail rhywbeth i fod â chywilydd ohono. Gallech through life never having to face illness, and fod yn un o’r bobl fwyaf eithriadol yn y byd a then die peacefully in your sleep aged 95, but hwylio drwy eich bywyd heb orfod wynebu there will not be many people in that happy salwch, ac yna farw’n heddychlon yn eich situation. So, mental illness is not in some cwsg yn 95 oed, ond ni fydd llawer o bobl yn sort of separate, extraordinary category; it is y sefyllfa hapus honno. Felly, nid yw salwch very much the stuff of life. One of the meddwl mewn rhyw fath o gategori arbennig, wonders of modern science is that all sorts of ar wahân; mae'n rhywbeth cyffredin. Un o illnesses are much more amenable to ryfeddodau gwyddoniaeth fodern yw bod pob treatment, therapy and even cure. That is math o salwch yn llawer mwy agored i certainly true of mental illnesses. So, we driniaeth, therapi a hyd yn oed gwella. Mae should celebrate the fact that when people hynny'n sicr yn wir am salwch meddwl. can acknowledge a difficulty and realise they Felly, dylem ddathlu'r ffaith pan fydd pobl yn need help, they can then access very effective gallu cydnabod anhawster a sylweddoli bod interventions. Is it not sad that many people, angen help arnynt, gallant wedyn fanteisio ar despite this great hope there is out there for ymyriadau effeithiol iawn. Onid yw'n drist treatment, suffer in silence? By ending bod llawer o bobl, er gwaethaf y gobaith stigma, we will certainly see more and more mawr am driniaeth, yn dioddef yn dawel? people coming forward to seek support. Drwy roi terfyn ar stigma, byddwn yn sicr yn gweld mwy o bobl yn dod ymlaen i geisio cymorth.

After the publication of the article in The Ar ôl cyhoeddi'r erthygl yn The Western Mail Western Mail this morning, I have received y bore yma, rwyf wedi derbyn nifer o many messages, both orally and via e-mail, negeseuon, ar lafar a thrwy e-bost, gan from friends and from many Assembly ffrindiau a chan lawer o Aelodau'r Cynulliad. Members. Those expressions of support are a Mae’r mynegiannau hynny o gefnogaeth yn great help. I believe that by speaking help mawr. Credaf drwy siarad yn agored am candidly about mental health issues, I believe faterion iechyd meddwl, gallwn annog y that we can encourage the whole of society to gymdeithas gyfan i fabwysiadu agwedd take a similar attitude to those they know debyg at y rheini y maent yn gwybod eu bod who are suffering from or who are prone to yn dioddef o drallod meddwl neu sy'n mental distress. dueddol o ddioddef trallod meddwl.

2.45 p.m.

I will not talk at length about my own Ni siaradaf yn faith am fy mhrofiadau fy hun, experiences, because the clock is against gan fod amser yn brin—gwelaf fod y us—I see that the Presiding Officer Llywydd yn fy nghanmol am hynny. commends me in that aspiration. [Laughter.] [Chwerthin.] Dros 10 mlynedd yn ôl, yn yr Over 10 years ago, in the old Chamber, I hen Siambr, credaf mai fi oedd y gwleidydd think I was the first Welsh politician to talk Cymreig cyntaf i siarad mewn fforwm in a public forum about my mental health cyhoeddus am fy heriau iechyd meddwl. challenges. I was received very politely, and Cefais ymateb cwrtais iawn, a death pobl ataf people talked to me privately afterwards. i siarad â mi’n breifat ar ôl hynny. Fodd However, on this occasion, I sense that there bynnag, y tro hwn, rwy’n synhwyro has been real public engagement, which is ymgysylltiad gwirioneddol â’r cyhoedd, sydd also very much present here in the Assembly. hefyd yn wir yma yn y Cynulliad. Rhaid inni We must build on this goodwill and ensure adeiladu ar yr ewyllys da hwn a sicrhau ein that we take this aspiration forward to put an bod yn gweithredu ar y dyhead hwn i roi

41 28/11/2012 end to stigma and to say to people who have terfyn ar stigma a dweud wrth bobl sydd â mental illnesses, ‘There is treatment, there is salwch meddwl, 'Mae triniaeth ar gael, yn often a cure and there is therapy—get out and aml mae modd gwella, ac mae therapy ar seek support.’ gael—ewch allan a cheisio cymorth’.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Mae nifer o’r Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Several of the cyfeillion sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl colleagues who have contributed to the heddiw wedi sôn am yr ystadegyn bod un o debate today have mentioned the statistic that bob pedwar person yn dioddef o salwch one in four people will suffer from mental meddwl ar ryw adeg yn ei fywyd. Rhaid imi illness at some point in their lives. I must say ddweud, pan glywais yr ystadegyn hwnnw that, when I heard that statistic for the first am y tro cyntaf, yn gymharol ddiweddar, time, relatively recently, that was the moment dyna’r foment y sylweddolais nad oedd yr that I realised that what I had suffered from a hyn yr oeddwn wedi’i ddioddef nifer o number of years ago was not as odd or flynyddoedd yn ôl mor rhyfedd neu annormal abnormal as I had thought. ag yr oeddwn wedi’i feddwl.

Bron 10 mlynedd yn ôl cefais ddiagnosis o Nearly 10 years ago I was diagnosed with iselder ysbryd. Nid yw sefyll mewn ystafell depression. Standing in a room crying for no yn crio am ddim rheswm amlwg yn rhywbeth apparent reason is not something that a y byddai dyn ifanc 30 oed, ar y pryd, yn young, 30-year-old man at the time would cyfaddef yn hawdd iawn, ond dyna oedd fy easily admit to, but that was my experience mhrofiad yn y cyfnod hwnnw. Wrth gwrs, during that period. Of course, I hid it, and did cuddiais y peth—a hynny’n dda iawn; dim so very well; only my wife was aware of my ond fy ngwraig oedd yn ymwybodol o’m illness. I would tell myself that the depression salwch. Byddwn bob amser yn dweud wrthyf would pass and that I would feel better fy hun y byddai’r iselder yn pasio ac y tomorrow. However, that tomorrow never byddem yn teimlo’n well yfory. Fodd came. After endless months of trying to cope, bynnag, nid oedd yr yfory hwnnw’n of hiding the illness and denying that I was cyrraedd. Ar ôl misoedd diddiwedd o geisio ill, I accepted that I needed medical help. I ymdopi, o guddio’r salwch a gwadu fy mod approached my GP and was referred to my yn sâl, derbyniais fod angen help meddygol local community mental health team and I arnaf. Euthum at fy meddyg teulu a’m started on the road to recovery. cyfeiriodd at fy nhîm iechyd meddwl cymunedol lleol ac fe ddechreuais ar y llwybr i wella.

Roedd siarad am fy salwch yn helpu i leddfu Talking about my illness helped to alleviate rhywfaint o’r pwysau roeddwn yn teimlo some of the pressure that I felt was on my oedd ar fy ysgwyddau, ond roedd y trafod shoulders, but that discussion was very hwnnw wedi’i gyfyngu’n ofalus iawn i’r tîm carefully restricted to the community mental iechyd meddwl cymunedol a’m gwraig. Hyd health team and to my wife. Even today, most yn oed heddiw, nid oes gan y rhan fwyaf o’m of my friends and relatives have no idea that I ffrindiau a’m mherthnasau syniad fy mod had been ill. Many of them will most likely wedi bod yn sâl. Bydd llawer ohonynt yn learn of my illness as a result of this debate darganfod hynny, mae’n debyg, yn sgîl y this afternoon. I do not want them to be ddadl hon y prynhawn yma. Nid wyf am shocked or to be sad, and certainly I do not iddynt gael eu synnu neu fod yn drist, ac yn want them to feel at all guilty; I was ill, but bendant nid wyf am iddynt deimlo’n euog o now I am better. I want everyone to know gwbl; roeddwn yn sâl, ond rwy’n well yn that I am better, because that will show others awr. Rwyf am i bawb wybod fy mod yn well, with mental illness that they, too, can get oherwydd bydd hynny’n dangos i bobl eraill better. â salwch meddwl y gallant hwy wella hefyd.

Ni ddylai pobl orfod ddioddef mewn People should not have to suffer in silence

42 28/11/2012 distawrwydd am eu bod yn credu nad yw’n because that they think that it is not dderbyniol iddynt gael salwch meddwl. Nid acceptable for them to be mentally ill. You ydych ar eich pen eich hunain. Mae un o bob are not alone. One in four is a lot of people; it pedwar yn lot o bobl; mae’n chwarter y is a quarter of the population. For example, boblogaeth. Er enghraifft, gallai pump neu five or six players in the Welsh rugby squad chwech o chwaraewr carfan rygbi Cymru could suffer from mental health problems, or ddioddef rywbryd o broblemau iechyd 160 Members of Parliament, or, as we have meddwl, neu 160 o Aelodau Seneddol neu, heard, 15 Assembly Members here in Cardiff fel rydym wedi’i glywed, 15 Aelod o’r bay. I am part of that quarter of the Cynulliad hwn ym mae Caerdydd. Rwyf i yn population that will experience mental rhan o’r chwarter hwnnw o’r boblogaeth a illness, and, since being elected an Assembly fydd yn profi salwch meddwl, ac, ers cael fy Member last year, I am even more ethol fel Aelod Cynulliad y llynedd, rwyf hyd determined to help to challenge the stigma yn oed yn fwy penderfynol o helpu i herio’r and negative attitudes that some hold with stigma a’r agweddau negyddol sy’n cael eu regards to mental health issues. coleddu gan rai tuag at faterion iechyd meddwl.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwneud tipyn The Welsh Government has done quite a bit ar gyfer gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl, ond with regard to mental health services, but I rwyf am fynd ymhellach. Mae angen want to go further. We need to introduce link cyflwyno gweithwyr cyswllt i gefnogi workers to support patients and carers, and to cleifion a gofalwyr, a hyfforddi staff mewn train staff in accident and emergency adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys i departments to identify the signs of mental adnabod arwyddion o salwch meddwl er illness so that people can be referred to get mwyn gallu cyfeirio pobl i gael cymorth. help. We need to stop placing children on Mae angen rhoi’r gorau i leoli plant ar adult mental health wards. I want follow-up wardiau iechyd meddwl i oedolion. Rwyf am appointments arranged when people miss i apwyntiadau dilynol gael eu trefnu pan fo appointments, so that people do not fall pobl yn methu apwyntiadau, fel nad yw pobl through the net. I also feel strongly that part yn mynd yn angof. Rwyf hefyd yn teimlo’n of the legacy of the Olympic Games should gryf y dylai rhan o etifeddiaeth y Gemau be about promoting and strengthening the Olympaidd ymwneud â hyrwyddo ac positive links between the outdoors, exercise atgyfnerthu’r cysylltiadau cadarnhaol rhwng and mental wellbeing. yr awyr agored, ymarfer corff a lles meddwl.

O edrych yn ôl, roeddwn yn amharod i Looking back, I was unwilling to face my wynebu fy salwch meddwl oherwydd ofn: mental illness because of fear: fear of what ofn beth y gallai pobl ei feddwl ac ofn beth y people might think and fear of what people gallai pobl ei ddweud. Yn awr, fel y mae teitl might say. Now, as the title of the campaign yr ymgyrch sy’n destun i’r cynnig hwn that is the subject of this motion today states, heddiw yn ei ddweud, mae’n amser i newid. it is time to change. It is time to change the Mae’n amser i newid agweddau pobl sy’n attitudes of those who are prejudiced or have coleddu rhagfarnau a chanfyddiadau incorrect perceptions about mental health anghywir am faterion iechyd meddwl. Mae’n issues. It is time to change the stigma and amser i newid y stigma a’r gwahaniaethu discrimination experienced by nine in 10 of sy’n cael eu profi gan naw o bob 10 o bobl those who have experienced mental illness. It sydd â phrofiad o salwch meddwl. Mae’n is time to change the fear in society that amser i newid yr ofn ymhlith cymdeithas fod talking about mental health issues is taboo trafod materion iechyd meddwl yn rhyw fath and something that simply should not be o dabŵ ac yn rhywbeth na ddylech ei wneud done. After all, one in every four is a lot of mewn gwirionedd. Wedi’r cwbl, mae un o people. bob pedwar yn lot o bobl.

Kirsty Williams: Briefly, I would like to add Kirsty Williams: Yn fyr, hoffwn ychwanegu

43 28/11/2012 to today’s debate, and to pledge the Welsh at y ddadl heddiw, ac addo cefnogaeth grŵp Liberal Democrats group’s support to the Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru i ymgyrch Time to Change Wales campaign. I take this Amser i Newid Cymru. Hoffwn achub ar y opportunity to publicly congratulate and cyfle hwn i longyfarch a chymeradwyo cyd- commend colleagues in this Chamber on their Aelodau yn gyhoeddus yn y Siambr hon ar eu frankness and courage in speaking so openly gonestrwydd a’u dewrder wrth siarad mor here today, and, in particular, to say how agored yma heddiw, ac, yn benodol, ddweud good it is to hear from David Melding from pa mor dda yw hi i glywed gan David the benches. David, your elevation to Deputy Melding o'r meinciau. David, mae’r Siambr Presiding Officer has robbed this Chamber of yn colli allan ar eich ffraethineb a’ch your wit and oratory, so it was wonderful to areithiau yn sgil eich dyrchafiad yn Ddirprwy hear you speaking from the benches once Lywydd, felly roedd yn wych eich clywed yn again. I pay tribute to you for your long siarad o’r meinciau unwaith eto. Talaf commitment to trying to talk about these deyrnged ichi am eich ymrwymiad hir i issues and address them. geisio siarad am y materion hyn a mynd i’r afael â hwy.

I truly believe that this Assembly and Credaf yn wirioneddol bod y Cynulliad hwn successive Welsh Governments have tried a Llywodraethau olynol Cymru wedi ceisio’n very hard to address issues around mental ill galed iawn i fynd i'r afael â materion yn health. Since our creation in 1999 we have ymwneud â salwch meddwl. Ers inni gael ein tried to ensure that mental health services no creu yn 1999, rydym wedi ceisio sicrhau nad longer remained cinderella services within yw gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn parhau i the health service. We tried to champion a fod yn wasanaethau sinderela o fewn y much more enlightened legislative approach gwasanaeth iechyd. Aethom ati i hyrwyddo to mental ill health when, perhaps, ymagwedd ddeddfwriaethol fwy goleuedig o Governments in Westminster were ploughing lawer at salwch meddwl pan oedd a much more regressive furrow. Despite that, Llywodraethau yn San Steffan, o bosibl, yn as we have heard today, we have failed to mabwysiadu ymagwedd fwy atchweliadol o make serious inroads into how the general lawer. Er hynny, fel yr ydym wedi clywed population feels about people who suffer heddiw, rydym wedi methu ag ymchwilio o from mental ill health and our ability to ddifrif i’r ffordd y mae’r boblogaeth tackle the stigma that surrounds it. That is gyffredinol yn teimlo am bobl sy'n dioddef o why the actions of our four colleagues here salwch meddwl a’n gallu i fynd i'r afael â'r today is particularly important in being able, stigma sydd ynghlwm wrtho. Dyna pam bod for a change, to see in the media such gweithredoedd ein pedwar cydweithiwr yma positive stories about mental ill health, and heddiw yn arbennig o bwysig o ran gallu how positive outcomes and recovery are gweld, am newid, storïau mor gadarnhaol am possible. salwch meddwl yn y cyfryngau, a sut y mae’n bosibl cael canlyniadau cadarnhaol a gwella.

So often in our media mental ill health is Caiff salwch meddwl ei bortreadu mor aml portrayed in a negative way and in a way that mewn ffordd negyddol ac mewn ffordd sy'n focuses on the many bad aspects of it, rather canolbwyntio ar yr agweddau gwael niferus than the positive outcomes that can be arno, yn hytrach na'r canlyniadau cadarnhaol enjoyed. However, as David Rees says, we y gellir eu mwynhau. Fodd bynnag, fel y still have a way to go, and, as Llyr has just dywed David Rees, mae gennym gryn dipyn outlined, there are still so many things that o waith i’w wneud o hyd, ac, fel y mae Llyr we could do better. However, I believe that newydd ei amlinellu, mae cymaint o bethau y today’s debate, and the contributions and gallem eu gwneud yn well. Fodd bynnag, courage of our colleagues, will go a long way credaf y bydd dadl heddiw, a chyfraniadau a towards driving this agenda forward one dewrder ein cydweithwyr, yn mynd yn bell more time, and I pay tribute to them. tuag at lywio’r agenda hon unwaith yn rhagor, a thalaf deyrnged iddynt.

44 28/11/2012

Rebecca Evans: I am very grateful to Rebecca Evans: Rwy’n ddiolchgar iawn i'r Members for bringing forward this debate Aelodau am gyflwyno'r ddadl hon heddiw, ac today, and I am filled with respect for the rwy’n llawn parch at yr Aelodau sydd wedi Members who have spoken so openly about siarad mor agored am eu profiadau eu hunain their own experiences of mental ill health, o salwch meddwl, yma yn y Siambr ac yn y both here in the Chamber and in the media. I cyfryngau. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd tystiolaeth am sure that the testimonies of Assembly Aelodau'r Cynulliad yn fodd i ysbrydoli a Members will serve to inspire and challenge herio a bydd yn garreg filltir bwysig o ran and will be an important milestone in braking dileu’r stigma, y gwahaniaethu a’r down the stigma, discrimination and silence distawrwydd sy'n dal i fod yn gysylltiedig â that still surrounds mental ill health. salwch meddwl.

There is no doubt that we have come a long Nid oes amheuaeth ein bod wedi gwneud way in terms of our understanding and cryn gynnydd o ran ein dealltwriaeth o acceptance of mental ill health. However, salwch meddwl a’r ffaith ein bod yn ei there is still a long way to go. We have heard dderbyn. Fodd bynnag, mae cryn dipyn i’w about the four in 10 people who think that wneud o hyd. Rydym wedi clywed am y people who have had a mental illness should pedwar o bob 10 sy'n credu na ddylai pobl not be allowed to hold public office. As the sydd wedi cael salwch meddwl gael yr hawl i law currently stands, it thinks the same. ddal swydd gyhoeddus. Mae’r gyfraith fel ag There has been a long tradition of y mae o’r un farn. Bu traddodiad hir o discriminating against people with mental ill wahaniaethu yn erbyn pobl â salwch meddwl health and of preventing them from playing ac o'u hatal rhag chwarae eu rhan lawn mewn their full part in public life. Under the Mental bywyd cyhoeddus. O dan Ddeddf Iechyd Health Act 1983, a Member of this Assembly Meddwl 1983, byddai Aelod o'r Cynulliad would automatically lose their seat if they hwn yn colli ei sedd yn awtomatig pe câi ei were detained under the Act for six months or gadw o dan y Ddeddf am chwe mis neu fwy. more. The Juries Act 1974 excludes people Mae Deddf Rheithgorau 1974 yn eithrio pobl who are voluntarily receiving treatment for sy'n cael triniaeth yn wirfoddol am gyflyrau mental health conditions from jury service, iechyd meddwl rhag gwasanaethu ar reithgor, and the Companies (Model Articles) ac mae Rheoliadau Cwmnïau (Erthyglau Regulations 2008 provide for the termination Enghreifftiol) 2008 yn darparu ar gyfer of a company director’s appointment by terfynu penodiad cyfarwyddwr cwmni reason of mental ill health. All of that feeds oherwydd salwch meddwl. Mae hynny i gyd into the outdated and negative perception that yn ategu’r canfyddiad hen-ffasiwn a people with mental ill health cannot be negyddol na ellir ymddiried mewn pobl â trusted to participate in social, political or salwch meddwl i gymryd rhan mewn bywyd economic life. It promotes the incorrect cymdeithasol, gwleidyddol nac economaidd. perception that people can never fully recover Mae'n hyrwyddo’r canfyddiad anghywir na from mental ill health, which is absolutely all pobl fyth wella’n llwyr o salwch meddwl, not the case. It promotes a sense of sy’n gwbl anghywir. Mae'n hyrwyddo hopelessness that people experiencing mental ymdeimlad o anobaith na all pobl sy'n profi ill health cannot find strategies or treatments salwch meddwl ddod o hyd i strategaethau that will enable them to cope from day to neu driniaethau a fydd yn eu galluogi i day. ymdopi o ddydd i ddydd.

However, fortunately, there are moves to Fodd bynnag, yn ffodus, mae camau ar droed make these legal provisions a thing of the i ddileu’r darpariaethau cyfreithiol hyn, ac past, and I am very pleased to see the rwy'n falch iawn o weld Bil Iechyd Meddwl backbench Mental Health (Discrimination) (Gwahaniaethu) (Rhif 2) y meinciau cefn (No. 2) Bill before the UK Parliament at this gerbron Senedd y DU ar hyn o bryd. Mae'r time. The Bill, which has cross-party support, Bil, sydd â chymorth trawsbleidiol, yn ceisio seeks to repeal these outdated and diddymu’r darpariaethau hyn sydd wedi discriminatory provisions and it enjoys the dyddio ac yn wahaniaethol ac mae'n

45 28/11/2012 full support of Mind, Rethink Mental Illness, mwynhau cefnogaeth lawn Mind, Rethink the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the Mental Illness, Coleg Brenhinol y Law Society. Seiciatryddion a Chymdeithas y Cyfreithwyr.

When the Bill was introduced to Parliament, Pan gyflwynwyd y Bil gerbron y Senedd, four MPs did what some of our Assembly gwnaeth pedwar AS yr un peth ag y gwnaeth Members have done today: they spoke out rhai o’n Haelodau Cynulliad heddiw: about their own experiences of mental ill gwnaethant siarad am eu profiadau eu hunain health, including depression, anxiety, suicidal o salwch meddwl, gan gynnwys iselder, thoughts, obsessive compulsive disorder and gorbryder, meddyliau hunanladdol, post-natal depression. Then, as now, it was a anhwylder gorfodaeth obsesiynol ac iselder brave, surprising and inspiring thing to do ôl-enedigol. Bryd hynny, fel yn awr, yr oedd and was met with warm applause across the yn beth dewr, rhyfeddol ac ysbrydoledig i’w UK. Speaking out has sent a powerful wneud a chafodd gymeradwyaeth wresog message that it is okay to talk about mental ledled y DU. Mae siarad am y peth wedi health in the workplace and that people with cyfleu neges bwerus ei bod yn dderbyniol mental ill health can, and do, hold down jobs siarad am iechyd meddwl yn y gweithle a bod successfully and make an important pobl â salwch meddwl yn gallu dal swyddi yn contribution to the workplace. Sadly, llwyddiannus a gwneud cyfraniad pwysig at y however, Time to Change has reported that gweithle a’u bod yn gwneud hynny. Yn two in three people with mental ill health say anffodus, fodd bynnag, mae Amser i Newid that they feel that worry about the stigma of wedi nodi bod dau o bob tri pherson sydd â mental ill health has stopped them from salwch meddwl yn dweud eu bod yn teimlo telling an employer or a potential employer bod pryderu am y stigma sy’n gysylltiedig â about their condition. Half said that it has salwch meddwl wedi eu rhwystro rhag dweud prevented them from applying for a job and wrth gyflogwr neu ddarpar gyflogwr posibl more than a third said that it had stopped am eu cyflwr. Dywedodd hanner ei fod wedi them from seeking professional help for their eu hatal rhag gwneud cais am swydd a mental health problem. Stigmatisation and dywedodd mwy na thraean ei fod wedi eu discrimination are, sadly, alive and well, but rhwystro rhag chwilio am gymorth they have no place in Wales today. It is, proffesiynol ar gyfer eu problem iechyd indeed, time to change. meddwl. Mae creu stigma a gwahaniaethu, yn anffodus, yn fyw ac iach, ond nid oes iddynt le yng Nghymru heddiw. Mae, yn wir, yn amser i newid.

Darren Millar: I will start by paying tribute Darren Millar: Rwyf am ddechrau drwy to David Melding, Eluned Parrott, Ken dalu teyrnged i David Melding, Eluned Skates and Llyr Huws Gruffydd for bringing Parrott, Ken Skates a Llyr Huws Gruffydd this debate forward and for their honesty and am gyflwyno'r ddadl hon ac am eu openness in sharing in their own experiences gonestrwydd ac am fod yn agored wrth rannu of mental ill health. It really does strengthen eu profiadau eu hunain o salwch meddwl. an institution when people can bring their Mae wir yn cryfhau sefydliad pan all pobl experiences to a debate. I also pay tribute to gyflwyno eu profiadau i ddadl. Rwyf hefyd organisations such as Gofal, Hafal and Mind yn talu teyrnged i sefydliadau megis Gofal, Cymru, which work in this field and are Hafal a Mind Cymru, sy'n gweithio yn y taking on the enormous task of trying to maes hwn ac yn gyfrifol am y dasg enfawr o change public attitudes towards mental ill geisio newid agweddau'r cyhoedd tuag at health. salwch meddwl.

We all know that mental health problems can Rydym i gyd yn gwybod y gall problemau present, at any time and in a variety of ways, iechyd meddwl ddigwydd, ar unrhyw adeg ac in anybody. Given the statistic that up to a mewn amrywiaeth o ffyrdd, a hynny i bawb. quarter of the Welsh population will, at one O ystyried yr ystadegyn y bydd hyd at point, suffer from mental ill health, it is really chwarter poblogaeth Cymru, ar un adeg, yn

46 28/11/2012 important that we give this subject time in the dioddef o salwch meddwl, mae'n bwysig Assembly Chamber. I am pleased that we iawn ein bod yn rhoi amser i drafod y pwnc have opportunities to discuss this on a regular hwn yn Siambr y Cynulliad. Rwy’n falch ein basis and that we do so in a spirit of cross- bod yn cael cyfle i drafod hyn yn rheolaidd, party unity to try to address the very real a'n bod yn gwneud hynny mewn undod problems that exist out there. It is true that trawsbleidiol i geisio mynd i'r afael â'r people still hold some very misguided beliefs problemau real iawn sy'n bodoli. Mae’n wir about mental ill health. One of the most bod pobl yn dal i arddel rhai credoau peculiar beliefs is that people with mental camarweiniol iawn am salwch meddwl. Un health problems should not have children. It o'r credoau mwyaf rhyfedd yw na ddylai pobl is quite astonishing that people should â phroblemau iechyd meddwl gael plant. believe that or that they should believe that Mae'n eithaf rhyfeddol bod pobl yn credu people with a mental health issue are always hynny neu eu bod yn credu bod pobl â violent. We know that those are myths and phroblem iechyd meddwl bob amser yn we have to do the job of busting those myths dreisgar. Gwyddom mai mythau yw’r rheini a as much as we can in order to eliminate those bod yn rhaid inni fynd ati i geisio chwalu’r assumptions in the future. mythau hynny gymaint â phosibl er mwyn dileu’r rhagdybiaethau hynny yn y dyfodol.

The Time to Change campaign wants to raise Mae ymgyrch Amser i Newid am godi awareness of this issue, and I hope that we ymwybyddiaeth o'r mater hwn, a gobeithiaf y can continue to play our part in supporting gallwn barhau i chwarae ein rhan i gefnogi’r that campaign—not just here today, but in ymgyrch honno—nid dim ond yma heddiw, our constituencies across the country, raising ond yn ein hetholaethau ledled y wlad, gan awareness and doing what we can to godi ymwybyddiaeth a gwneud yr hyn a encourage people to pay attention to it. allwn i annog pobl i roi sylw iddo.

I applaud the use of social media in the Cymeradwyaf y defnydd o’r cyfryngau campaign. It has been great, as a regular cymdeithasol yn yr ymgyrch. Mae wedi bod twitterer, to keep visiting the tweets to get yn wych, fel un sy’n trydar yn rheolaidd, i updates and to see what people are talking edrych yn gyson ar y newyddion diweddaraf about. There is no doubt in my mind that the a gweld am beth y mae pobl yn siarad. Nid campaign has really taken off well today as a oes amheuaeth bod yr ymgyrch wedi result of the media attention that it has dechrau’n dda heddiw o ganlyniad i’r sylw a received. I want to applaud the people who gafodd yn y cyfryngau. Hoffwn have been using Twitter to try to get the gymeradwyo’r bobl sydd wedi bod yn message out there. defnyddio Twitter i geisio cyfleu’r neges.

As has already been said, it has been an Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, mae wedi bod yn effective campaign in England, and I know ymgyrch effeithiol yn Lloegr, a gwn y bu that there have been similar campaigns ymgyrchoedd tebyg yn rhyngwladol ar y internationally on this issue, which have been mater hwn, sydd wedi bod yn hynod fuddiol. extremely beneficial. I really hope that, after Rwy’n mawr obeithio, ar ôl cymryd rhan yn engaging in this campaign in Wales, we will yr ymgyrch hon yng Nghymru, y byddwn yn see a marked difference in public attitudes gweld gwahaniaeth amlwg yn agweddau'r towards mental ill health. cyhoedd tuag at salwch meddwl.

There are other things that we can do as well Mae pethau eraill y gallwn eu gwneud yn as raising awareness: we have to improve ogystal â chodi ymwybyddiaeth: rhaid inni access to mental health therapies and other wella mynediad i therapïau iechyd meddwl a things besides drugs, which have commonly phethau eraill ar wahân i gyffuriau, sydd been used as a sort of sticking plaster to wedi cael eu defnyddio yn gyffredin fel rhyw address mental health problems. We have fath o ateb dros dro i broblemau iechyd already heard today from Assembly Members meddwl. Rydym eisoes wedi clywed heddiw that recovery is absolutely possible. I am gan Aelodau Cynulliad fod y broses wella yn

47 28/11/2012 fortunate that I have never experienced a bosibl. Rwy’n ffodus nad wyf erioed wedi mental health problem. I cannot really profi problem iechyd meddwl. Ni allaf wir appreciate what people must have been werthfawrogi'r hyn y mae’n rhaid bod pobl through. However, knowing that people can wedi ei brofi. Fodd bynnag, mae gwybod y get better and recover, or at least cope with gall pobl wella, neu o leiaf ymdopi â'u salwch their mental ill health, is a really important meddwl, yn neges bwysig iawn ac mae'n un y message and it is one that we must focus on mae'n rhaid inni ganolbwyntio arni pan when we talk about access to services and fyddwn yn siarad am fynediad i wasanaethau access to treatment within the NHS. a mynediad i driniaeth o fewn y GIG.

3.00 p.m.

Finally, to touch on the really important role Yn olaf, i sôn yn fras am y rôl bwysig iawn y that carers play in this process, I meet mae gofalwyr yn ei chwarae yn y broses hon, regularly, as I know other Assembly byddaf yn cwrdd yn rheolaidd, fel y gwn fod Members do, with carers’ groups across Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad yn ei wneud, â Wales. Many individuals in those groups will grwpiau gofalwyr ledled Cymru. Bydd llawer be caring for someone who has experienced o unigolion yn y grwpiau hynny yn gofalu or is going through a period of mental ill am rywun sydd wedi profi neu sydd yn profi health. It is very important that we do not cyfnod o salwch meddwl. Mae'n bwysig iawn lose sight of the fact that those carers are nad ydym yn colli golwg ar y ffaith bod y living daily with those people, trying to gofalwyr hynny yn byw bob dydd gyda'r bobl promote and encourage recovery as best as hynny, yn ceisio hyrwyddo ac annog eu possible. We need to ensure that they are gwellhad gymaint ag y bo modd. Mae angen given every bit of support that it is possible inni sicrhau eu bod yn cael pob cefnogaeth y for us to provide as a nation, to promote mae’n bosibl inni ei darparu fel cenedl, i good, positive mental health and positive hyrwyddo iechyd meddwl cadarnhaol, da ac attitudes throughout Wales. agweddau cadarnhaol ledled Cymru.

I commend the debate today, which certainly Cymeradwyaf y ddadl heddiw, sydd yn sicr has the support of the Welsh Conservatives. yn cael cefnogaeth y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig.

Elin Jones: Diolch i’r pedwar Aelod Elin Jones: I thank the four Assembly Cynulliad am gyflwyno’r ddadl ac am adrodd Members for sponsoring this debate and for yn gyhoeddus am eu profiad personol o their public account of their personal iselder. Mae trafod iselder ymysg teulu a experiences of depression. Discussing ffrindiau yn ddigon anodd, ac anghyffredin o depression with family and friends is hard bosibl, ond mae cyhoeddi a thrafod eich enough, and possibly unusual, but iselder yn gwbl gyhoeddus ac ar gyfryngau announcing and discussing your depression cenedlaethol yn ddewr iawn ac, fel y profwyd openly in the national media is very brave heddiw, yn rymus iawn. and, as was proven today, very powerful.

Rwyf eisiau siarad yn y ddadl hon am salwch I want to speak in this debate about mental meddwl a’i oblygiadau i garfan benodol o illness and its implications for a specific bobl, gan gofio y pwynt a wnaeth Eluned group of people, while remembering the Parrott mor dda yn ei chyflwyniad, sef bod point made so well by Eluned Parrott in her pob rhan o gymdeithas yn profi salwch contribution, namely that all sections of meddwl. Wrth imi dyfu lan, roedd fy nhad-cu society can experience mental illness. When I yn dioddef o iselder a’i chwaer hefyd, sef fy was growing up, my grandfather suffered modryb, yn dioddef o salwch meddwl. from depression, and his sister, namely my Treuliodd hi gyfnodau mewn ysbyty iechyd aunt, also suffered from mental illness. She meddwl yng Nghaerfyrddin hyd at ddiwedd spent periods in a mental health hospital in ei hoes. Yn ei 80au, ryw 20 mlynedd yn ôl, Carmarthen until the end of her life. In his cymerodd fy nhad-cu ei fywyd ei hun, 80s, some 20 years ago, my grandfather took rhywbeth digon anghyffredin i ddyn o’i his own life, which is unusual for a man of

48 28/11/2012 oedran ef. Byddai fy mam-gu wedi casáu’r his age. My grandmother would hate the fact ffaith fy mod ar fy nhraed heddiw yn sôn am that I am standing here today talking publicly hyn yn gyhoeddus, oherwydd roedd y profiad about this, because the experience in my yn fy nheulu i siŵr o fod yn debyg iawn i family was probably similar to that of so brofiadau nifer o deuluoedd eraill, sef ein bod many other families, namely that we talked yn trafod afiechydon a gwaeledd corfforol yn endlessly of physical ailments and illnesses ddi ben draw o fewn y teulu a chyda within the family and with acquaintances, but chydnabod, ond yn osgoi trafod gwaeledd avoided talking about mental illness at all iechyd meddwl ar bob cyfrif—yn ein teulu costs—both within our family, and with other ein hunain, yn ogystal â chyda phobl eraill. people.

Roedd fy nhad-cu yn ffarmwr a’r rhan fwyaf My grandfather was a farmer, and the vast o fy nheulu estynedig yn ffermwyr, ac yn majority of my extended family are farmers, ystod fy mywyd, bu i ddau ohonynt—cefnder and during my lifetime, two of them—my fy nhad a chefnder fy mam—gymryd eu father’s cousin and my mother’s cousin— bywydau eu hunain ar wahanol adegau. took their own lives at different points. Both Roedd y ddau ohonynt yn ffermwyr, yn of them were farmers, both were men in their ddynion yn eu 30au, ac yn dadau ifanc ar y 30s, and both were young fathers at the time, pryd, a bu i’r ddau ohonynt saethu eu hunain and both of them shot themselves with gyda dryllau trwyddedig. Dros y 30 mlynedd licensed guns. Over the past 30 years, diwethaf, mae tystiolaeth wedi dangos bod evidence has emerged that the incidence of achosion o hunanladdiad yn uwch na’r suicide is higher than average among the cyfartaledd ymysg y boblogaeth agricultural community, particularly among amaethyddol, yn enwedig ymysg dynion. men. The University of Oxford Centre for Mae Canolfan Ymchwil Hunanladdiad Suicide Research has carried out specific Prifysgol Rhydychen wedi gwneud ymchwil research into suicide among farmers, and its benodol i mewn i hunanladdiad a ffermwyr, work has shown that mental illness, an ac mae ei gwaith yn dangos bod salwch unwillingness to seek treatment, isolation, meddwl, amharodrwydd i chwilio am and the availability of a gun are all driniaeth, unigedd ac argaeledd dryll i gyd yn contributory factors in the high number of ffactorau yn nifer uchel yr achosion o cases of suicide among farmers in England hunanladdiad ymysg ffermwyr yng Nghymru and Wales. In these studies by the University a Lloegr. Yn yr astudiaethau hyn gan of Oxford, it was found that 40% of suicides Brifysgol Rhydychen, canfuwyd fod 40% o among farmers were carried out using a gun hunanladdiadau ymysg ffermwyr gyda dryll a and 30% by hanging, which are percentages 30% drwy ddull crogi, sef canrannau sy’n that are far higher than for the general llawer uwch nag i’r boblogaeth yn population. Suicide using a gun is very gyffredinol. Mae hunanladdiad drwy ddryll sudden and far more successful, if that is the yn sydyn ac yn llawer mwy llwyddiannus, os right word, or more instantly fatal than other dyna’r term cywir, neu yn fwy sydyn o methods of attempting suicide. farwol na dulliau eraill o hunanladdiad.

Mae’r Samariaid hefyd wedi gwneud gwaith The Samaritans have also done some academaidd am rai o’r rhesymau pam mae academic research on someo f the reasons cynnydd yn nifer y dynion yn eu 30au, 40au a why there has now been an increase in the 50au sy’n cymryd eu bywydau eu hunain. number of men in their 30s, 40s and 50s taking their own lives.

Nid wyf yma y prynhawn yma i ddweud bod I am not here this afternoon to say that we angen cymryd drylliau a thrwyddedau need to take firearms and licensed guns away drylliau oddi ar ffermwyr, ond rwyf yn from farmers, but I do think that the health meddwl bod eisiau i’r gwasanaeth iechyd a’r service and the counselling services in this gwasanaethau sy’n rhoi cyngor yn y maes area need to ask, in cases of mental illness hwn ofyn, pan fydd achosion o afiechyd among farmers, or farming families, for that meddwl gan ffermwyr, neu eu teuloedd o ran matter, questions about the availability of a

49 28/11/2012 hynny, am argaeledd dryll o fewn y teulu a gun within the family, and to have a chael sgwrs na fyddent yn ei chael gyda’r conversation that perhaps they would not boblogaeth yn gyffredinol. have with the general population.

Yn bwysicach na hynny, yn ein cymunedau More importantly, in our rural communities gwledig a’n cymunedau amaethyddol yn and specifically in our agricultural benodol, mae eisiau inni fod yn llawer mwy communities, we need to be far more open agored i drafod iselder a salwch meddwl, i about discussing depression and mental ofyn am gymorth, i chwilio am driniaeth, ac i illness, about asking for assistance, seeking dderbyn bod salwch meddwl yn gyflwr treatment and accepting that mental illness is cyffredin sydd â phob math o driniaethau a common condition that can be treated with modern a meddyginaethau modern ar ei all kinds of modern treatments and gyfer, fel ar gyfer pob cyflwr meddygol arall. medicines, just like any other medical Rwy’n falch bod y ddadl yn cael ei chynnal y condition. I am pleased that we are having prynhawn yma, ac yn falch o gefnogi’r this debate this afternoon, and I am proud to ymgyrch Amser i Newid. support the Time to Change campaign.

The Minister for Health and Social Y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Services (Lesley Griffiths): This has been a Cymdeithasol (Lesley Griffiths): Mae hon very powerful debate, and that is due in no wedi bod yn ddadl bwerus iawn, ac mae small measure to Eluned Parrott, Llyr Huws hynny'n ddyledus i raddau helaeth i Eluned Gruffydd, David Melding and Ken Skates. I Parrott, Llyr Huws Gruffydd, David Melding will refer to their contributions later. I know a Ken Skates. Cyfeiriaf at eu cyfraniadau yn that Ken will be the final speaker. The effect ddiweddarach. Gwn mai Ken fydd y siaradwr that discrimination can have on people olaf. Mae’r effaith y gall gwahaniaethu ei suffering from a mental health illness is huge chael ar bobl sy'n dioddef o salwch meddwl and sometimes prevents them from accessing yn enfawr ac weithiau mae’n eu hatal rhag the opportunities that many of us take for cael manteisio ar y cyfleoedd y mae llawer granted, such as employment. The stigma can ohonom yn eu cymryd yn ganiataol, megis reinforce the isolation and distress that cyflogaeth. Gall y stigma atgyfnerthu'r mental illness can cause. Stigma and unigedd a’r gofid y gall salwch meddwl eu discrimination can further lead to secrecy and hachosi. Gall stigma a gwahaniaethu arwain unwillingness on the part of an individual to hefyd at gyfrinachedd ac amharodrwydd ar discuss problems or seek help when such ran unigolyn i drafod problemau neu geisio problems arise, often through fear of what cymorth pan fydd problemau o'r fath yn codi, others may think of them. The poor portrayal yn aml am eu bod yn ofni beth y bydd pobl of mental illness in the media that Kirsty eraill yn ei feddwl ohonynt. Gall y portread Williams referred to, often stereotyping those gwael o salwch meddwl yn y cyfryngau y with problems and providing misinformation, cyfeiriodd Kirsty Williams ato, sy’n aml yn can lead to ungrounded fears, llunio ystrydebau o’r rheini â phroblemau a misunderstandings and mistrust on the part of darparu gwybodaeth anghywir, arwain at the public. Along with the focus on high- ofnau, camddealltwriaeth a diffyg profile but extremely rare tragedies involving ymddiriedaeth ar ran y cyhoedd, a hynny’n people with mental health problems, that ddi-sail. Ynghyd â'r ffocws ar drychinebau feeds the ignorance, which, in turn, leads to proffil uchel ond eithriadol o brin yn fear and, ultimately, to discrimination. cynnwys pobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl, mae hynny’n bwydo anwybodaeth, sydd, yn ei dro, yn arwain at ofn ac, yn y pen draw, at wahaniaethu.

The truth is that people suffering with a Y gwir yw bod pobl sy'n dioddef salwch mental illness are actually significantly more meddwl mewn gwirionedd yn llawer mwy likely to be a victim of crime than the tebygol o fod yn ddioddefwr trosedd na’r perpetrator. Too often, the media fails to troseddwr. Yn rhy aml, nid yw’r cyfryngau cover those instances. This misunderstanding yn rhoi sylw i’r achosion hynny. Mae’r

50 28/11/2012 perpetuates the discrimination against people gamddealltwriaeth hon yn bytholi’r experiencing mental health problems, gwahaniaethu yn erbyn pobl sy'n dioddef resulting in reduced access to work, problemau iechyd meddwl, gan arwain at lai education, housing and leisure opportunities. o fynediad i waith, cyfleoedd addysg, tai a Indeed, it is in our most impoverished hamdden. Yn wir, yn ein cymunedau tlotaf y communities that people experience the worst mae pobl yn profi'r iechyd meddwl gwaethaf, mental health, and yet, as individuals and ac eto, fel unigolion a chymunedau, efallai y communities, they may be prevented from byddant yn cael eu hatal rhag codi o’r emerging from this deprivation due to amddifadedd hwn oherwydd gwahaniaethu. discrimination. If we are to tackle these Er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r inequalities, we must challenge the stigma anghydraddoldebau hyn, rhaid inni herio'r and discrimination directed at some of the stigma a'r gwahaniaethu sydd wedi’i gyfeirio most powerless and vulnerable members of at rai o'r aelodau mwyaf diymadferth ac our society. agored i niwed yn ein cymdeithas.

We also need to work in our schools and Mae angen inni hefyd weithio yn ein workplaces to transform public attitudes and hysgolion a’n gweithleoedd i drawsnewid behaviours in response to mental ill health. agweddau ac ymddygiad y cyhoedd mewn This is why the national Time to Change ymateb i salwch meddwl. Dyma pam mae Wales campaign, to which so many Members ymgyrch Amser i Newid Cymru, y cyfeiriodd referred, is vital. This three-year programme, cynifer o Aelodau ati, yn hanfodol. Diben y funded by the Big Lottery fund, Comic Relief rhaglen tair blynedd hon, a ariennir gan y and the Welsh Government, aims to end the Gronfa Loteri Fawr, Comic Relief a stigma and discrimination faced by people Llywodraeth Cymru, yw rhoi terfyn ar y who experience mental health issues. It is stigma a'r gwahaniaethu a wynebir gan bobl delivered by leading Welsh mental health sy'n profi problemau iechyd meddwl. Caiff ei charities, Gofal, Hafal and Mind Cymru. This chyflwyno gan brif elusennau iechyd meddwl is a great example of partnership working. Cymru, sef Gofal, Hafal a Mind Cymru. Mae Not only do I reiterate my support for this hon yn enghraifft wych o weithio mewn campaign, but I also publicly acknowledge partneriaeth. Rwyf nid yn unig yn ategu fy the hard work being done by these nghefnogaeth i’r ymgyrch hon, ond rwyf organisations and other third sector partners hefyd yn cydnabod yn gyhoeddus y gwaith in driving forward this important agenda. caled sy'n cael ei wneud gan y sefydliadau hyn a phartneriaid trydydd sector eraill wrth lywio’r agenda bwysig hon.

As you will be aware, I recently launched Fel y gwyddoch, yn ddiweddar gwneuthum ‘Together for Mental Health’, our new age- lansio 'Gyda'n Gilydd ar gyfer Iechyd inclusive, cross-governmental strategy for Meddwl', ein strategaeth newydd sy’n mental health and wellbeing. It recognises oedran-gynhwysol ac yn draws-lywodraethol that a quarter of us will experience mental ar gyfer iechyd meddwl a lles. Mae'n health problems or illness at some point and cydnabod y bydd chwarter ohonom yn profi that that will have an enormous effect on our problemau iechyd meddwl neu salwch families, friends and colleagues. A principal meddwl ar ryw adeg ac y bydd hyn yn cael objective of the strategy is to reduce the effaith enfawr ar ein teuluoedd, ffrindiau a inequalities suffered by people experiencing chydweithwyr. Un o brif amcanion y mental ill health. ‘Together for Mental strategaeth yw lleihau'r anghydraddoldebau a Health’ is supported by a three-year delivery ddioddefir gan bobl sy'n profi salwch plan. This initial three-year plan addresses meddwl. Ategir 'Gyda'n Gilydd ar gyfer key priorities for mental health, and I am Iechyd Meddwl' gan gynllun cyflenwi tair pleased to say that it includes key actions to blynedd. Mae’r cynllun tair blynedd reduce stigma and discrimination. Local cychwynnol hwn yn mynd i’r afael â health boards and local authorities will be blaenoriaethau allweddol ar gyfer iechyd required to ensure that staff receive mental meddwl, ac rwy’n falch o ddweud ei fod yn health awareness training, to which Llyr cynnwys camau allweddol i leihau stigma a

51 28/11/2012 referred, and the National Centre for Mental gwahaniaethu. Bydd yn ofynnol i fyrddau Health will work with stakeholders to iechyd lleol ac awdurdodau lleol sicrhau bod produce high-quality information for the staff yn derbyn hyfforddiant ymwybyddiaeth general public, service users, carers and o iechyd meddwl, y cyfeiriodd Llyr ato, a service providers. bydd y Ganolfan Genedlaethol ar gyfer Iechyd Meddwl yn gweithio gyda rhanddeiliaid i baratoi gwybodaeth o safon uchel ar gyfer y cyhoedd, defnyddwyr gwasanaethau, gofalwyr a darparwyr gwasanaethau.

LHBs and local authorities will have new Bydd gan Fyrddau Iechyd Lleol ac Time to Change champions to raise the awdurdodau lleol hyrwyddwyr Amser i profile of mental health, and progress will be Newid newydd i godi proffil iechyd meddwl, measured through regular surveys of a chaiff cynnydd ei fesur drwy arolygon attitudes. Our commitment to mental health rheolaidd o agweddau. Mae ein hymrwymiad first aid remains, offering people the training i gymorth cyntaf iechyd meddwl yn parhau, that they need to recognise the signs and gan gynnig yr hyfforddiant sydd ei angen i symptoms of mental ill health. Key partners adnabod arwyddion a symptomau salwch such as the ambulance service, the Welsh meddwl. Mae partneriaid allweddol fel y police service, the prison service, Jobcentre gwasanaeth ambiwlans, gwasanaeth heddlu Plus and those working in primary health Cymru, y gwasanaeth carchardai, y Ganolfan care, social care and further and higher Byd Gwaith a'r rhai sy'n gweithio ym maes education are among the many who have gofal iechyd sylfaenol, gofal cymdeithasol ac benefited from its increased availability. We addysg bellach ac uwch ymhlith y nifer sydd now have more than 10,000 people trained in wedi elwa o'i argaeledd cynyddol. Erbyn hyn mental health first aid—a significant mae gennym fwy na 10,000 o bobl wedi'u achievement, I am sure everyone will agree. hyfforddi mewn cymorth cyntaf iechyd We continue to work with our third sector meddwl—cyflawniad arwyddocaol, rwy’n partners and, importantly, to listen to service siŵr y bydd pawb yn cytuno. Rydym yn users and carers to address this most pressing parhau i weithio gyda'n partneriaid yn y of issues. Going forward, it is important on trydydd sector ac, yn bwysig, gwrando ar an individual level that we enable people to ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau a gofalwyr er realise their potential and enjoy full mwyn mynd i'r afael â'r mater hynod bwysig citizenship and, on a community level, that hwn. Gan symud ymlaen, mae'n bwysig ar we tackle poverty and inequality from mental lefel unigol ein bod yn galluogi pobl i health. On a societal level, if we are truly to wireddu eu potensial a mwynhau have an inclusive Wales, we need to ensure dinasyddiaeth lawn ac, ar lefel gymunedol, that we are providing opportunities for all. ein bod yn mynd i'r afael â thlodi ac anghydraddoldeb o iechyd meddwl. Ar lefel gymdeithasol, er mwyn cael Cymru wirioneddol gynhwysol, mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn darparu cyfleoedd i bawb.

I thank all Members for their contributions, Diolchaf i'r holl Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau, but I would like to refer to the contributions ond hoffwn gyfeirio at gyfraniadau Eluned, of Eluned, David and Llyr. Eluned spoke David a Llyr. Siaradodd Eluned yn ingol very poignantly about post-natal depression iawn am iselder ôl-enedigol a'r boen sy’n and the pain of mental health illness. I think gysylltiedig â salwch meddwl. Credaf fod yr that what she said about the lack of hyn a ddywedodd am y ffaith nad oedd photographs from the first four months of her ganddi ffotograffau o bedwar mis cyntaf child’s life really made us sit up and think. bywyd ei phlentyn wedi peri inni feddwl o Eluned also talked about the empathy that it ddifrif. Soniodd Eluned hefyd am yr empathi has given her. I started my working life many y mae wedi’i roi iddi. Dechreuais fy mywyd years ago in what was then called a gwaith flynyddoedd lawer yn ôl mewn uned a

52 28/11/2012 psychiatric unit, and it certainly gave me elwid yn uned seiciatrig, ac yn sicr rhoddodd empathy, which I hope that I have taken imi empathi, ac rwy’n gobeithio fy mod wedi throughout my adult life and into my current mabwysiadu’r empathi hwnnw drwy gydol fy position. mywyd fel oedolyn ac i mewn i’m swydd bresennol.

David, I am sure that you will not be David, rwy’n siŵr na fyddwch yn synnu i surprised to hear that I am one of the three glywed fy mod yn un o'r tri o bob pedwar out of four people in Wales who think that person yng Nghymru sy'n credu na ddylai'r the Welsh Conservatives should not hold Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ddal swydd public office. [Laughter.] However, it is very gyhoeddus. [Chwerthin.] Fodd bynnag, mae'n wrong that people think that you should not gwbl anghywir bod pobl yn meddwl na hold public office owing to mental health ddylech ddal swydd gyhoeddus oherwydd issues. You talked about people suffering in problemau iechyd meddwl. Gwnaethoch silence, which also made us all sit up. It does siarad am bobl sy'n dioddef yn dawel, a not surprise me in the least to learn that wnaeth hefyd beri inni feddwl. Nid yw'n you—and, I am sure, Eluned, Llyr and Ken— syndod imi o gwbl ddysgu eich bod chi—ac have received many messages of support Eluned, Llyr a Ken rwy’n siŵr—wedi derbyn today. sawl neges o gefnogaeth heddiw.

Llyr, I think that you made a very important Llyr, credaf ichi wneud pwynt pwysig iawn point in that, just like a great deal of illnesses sef, yn union fel sawl math o salwch yr ydym that we all suffer, you can recover from i gyd yn dioddef ohonynt, gallwch wella ar ôl mental health illness. That is a very important salwch meddwl. Mae honno'n neges bwysig message to take out there. You talked about iawn i’w chyfleu. Gwnaethoch sôn am ensuring that NHS staff pick up on signs of sicrhau bod staff y GIG yn sylwi ar mental health illness, and I referred to that arwyddion o salwch meddwl, a chyfeiriais earlier in my speech. On the point that you innau at hynny'n gynharach yn fy araith. O made about the Olympic legacy, we should ran y pwynt a wnaethoch am etifeddiaeth y make sure that we carry that feeling of Gemau Olympaidd, dylem wneud yn siŵr wellbeing through. That is why I am pleased bod y teimlad hwnnw o les yn parhau. Dyna that ‘Together for Mental Health’ focuses on pam fy mod yn falch bod 'Gyda'n Gilydd ar wellbeing for the first time in a strategy. gyfer Iechyd Meddwl' yn canolbwyntio ar les am y tro cyntaf mewn strategaeth.

Ultimately, we all have some responsibility Yn y pen draw, gan bob un ohonom rywfaint to support our friends, family and colleagues o gyfrifoldeb i gefnogi ein ffrindiau, teulu a when they are in need, and to talk candidly chydweithwyr pan fyddant mewn angen, ac i and openly. Sometimes, that can be very siarad yn onest ac yn agored. Weithiau, gall difficult to do, on both sides. I am very proud hynny fod yn anodd iawn i'w wneud, ar y to see the Assembly leading by example. I naill ochr a’r llall. Rwy’n falch iawn o weld y again place on record my personal thanks to Cynulliad yn arwain drwy esiampl. Unwaith those Members from all parties who are eto hoffwn gofnodi fy niolch personol i'r taking this step and talking about their own Aelodau hynny o bob plaid sydd yn cymryd y experiences. cam hwn ac yn siarad am eu profiadau eu hunain.

Finally, in order to have a flourishing and I gloi, er mwyn cael Cymru ffyniannus a prosperous Wales, it is important that we llewyrchus, mae'n bwysig ein bod yn draw on all resources in Wales. To exclude defnyddio pob adnodd yng Nghymru. Byddai people on the basis of mental health issues is, eithrio pobl ar sail problemau iechyd in my opinion, to lose a very precious meddwl, yn fy marn i, yn golygu colli adnodd resource. gwerthfawr iawn.

Kenneth Skates: I feel honoured and Kenneth Skates: Mae’n fraint ac yn

53 28/11/2012 somewhat liberated to be able to participate rhyddhad imi, i raddau, allu cymryd rhan yn in this debate today. It is not a conventional y ddadl hon heddiw. Nid yw'n ddadl debate in any way, and is more of a gonfensiynol o gwbl, ac mae’n fwy o her. challenge. It has been a challenge for many Mae wedi bod yn her i sawl Aelod, mae'n Members, it lays out a challenge for the amlinellu her i'r Llywodraeth, ond yn annad Government, but above all, it sets out a dim, mae'n nodi her i gymdeithas. Rydym i challenge for society. We all share the gyd yn rhannu'r cyfrifoldeb i roi terfyn ar responsibility to end prejudice and stigma, ragfarn a stigma, a chymeradwyaf yr Aelodau and I applaud those Members who have made hynny sydd wedi gwneud ymdrechion mor such positive efforts in this regard today. gadarnhaol yn hyn o beth heddiw.

Our minds are like complicated jigsaws and, Mae ein meddyliau yn debyg i jig-sos if you shake them, sometimes the pieces can cymhleth ac, os ydych yn eu hysgwyd, fall out of place. Sometimes, without help, weithiau gall y darnau ddisgyn o’u lle. the pieces do not go back as they should do, Weithiau, heb help, nid yw'r darnau yn mynd and that is when mental illness can occur. For yn ôl fel y dylent ei wneud, a dyna pryd y me, the jigsaw pieces of my mind fell out of gall salwch meddwl ddigwydd. I mi, shape when I went from a very close-knit, disgynnodd darnau jig-so fy meddwl allan rural, family environment to university, to o’u lle pan symudais o amgylchedd teuluol, Cambridge, to an environment that was gwledig, agos i'r brifysgol, i Gaergrawnt, i completely alien to me and for which I was amgylchedd a oedd yn gwbl ddieithr imi ac entirely unprepared. Looking back, after nad oeddwn yn barod ar ei gyfer o gwbl. some time, I realised that I felt like part of the Wrth edrych yn ôl, ar ôl peth amser, naive proletariat in the land of the confident sylweddolais fy mod yn teimlo fel rhan o'r bourgeoisie. The colour of my tie today, by werin naïf yn nhir y bourgeoisie hyderus. the way, is purely coincidental. My blog Mae lliw fy nhei heddiw, gyda llaw, yn gyd- piece explains how, as a result of that unsafe ddigwyddiad llwyr. Mae fy mlog yn esbonio transition from childhood to adulthood, from sut, o ganlyniad i'r trawsnewid anniogel being a part of a family to being independent, hwnnw o blentyndod i fod yn oedolyn, o fod I developed generalised anxiety disorder, the yn rhan o deulu i fod yn annibynnol, y same condition and illness that David datblygais anhwylder gorbryder cyffredinol, Melding has written about. I concur fully yr un cyflwr a salwch ag y mae David with his account of how it affects you. Melding wedi ysgrifennu amdano. Cytunaf yn llwyr â’i gyfrif ef am y ffordd y mae'n effeithio arnoch chi.

It was once said that we read so that we know Dywedwyd unwaith ein bod yn darllen fel ein that we are not alone. I would encourage bod yn gwybod nad ydym ar ein pen ein anyone who is suffering from any form of hunain. Byddwn yn annog unrhyw un sy'n mental illness to read the blogs, but also to dioddef o unrhyw fath o salwch meddwl i read accounts from other people who may not ddarllen y blogiau, ond hefyd i ddarllen be politicians. Indeed, that includes cyfrifon gan bobl eraill nad ydynt efallai yn celebrities and people who have influence, wleidyddion. Yn wir, mae hynny’n cynnwys but also people in our communities, in every enwogion a phobl ddylanwadol, ond hefyd community. You will draw comfort from it pobl yn ein cymunedau, ym mhob cymuned. and you will draw strength. Byddant yn eich cysuro ac yn eich gwneud yn gryfach.

3.15 p.m.

For me, one of the problems was that my I mi, un o'r problemau oedd bod fy meddyg doctor at home in north Wales refused to gartref yn y gogledd wedi gwrthod derbyn, accept that, at the age of 19, I could possibly yn 19 oed, y gallwn fod yn bryderus neu'n be anxious or depressed, and so I am afraid isel fy ysbryd, ac felly mae arnaf ofn na that treatment was not forthcoming. After I chefais y driniaeth briodol. Ar ôl imi adael y

54 28/11/2012 left university, my illness followed me, and it brifysgol, dilynodd fy salwch fi, a came to a point where I was absolutely chyrhaeddais y pwynt lle yr oeddwn wedi terrified that the only way to end the illness dychryn yn llwyr mai’r unig ffordd o roi would be to end life, which, tragically, was a terfyn ar y salwch fyddai drwy roi terfyn ar course of action that too many people I had fy mywyd, sydd, yn drychinebus, yn weithred seen at university and at home had taken. I y gwelais ormod o bobl yn y brifysgol a was desperate to avoid it, and it was at that gartref yn ei chyflawni. Roeddwn mor point that I sought help from a clinical awyddus i'w osgoi, ac ar y pwynt hwnnw y psychologist, someone who, over the course ceisiais help gan seicolegydd clinigol, of the following three years, would become rhywun a fyddai, yn ystod y tair blynedd just as important to me and instrumental in ganlynol, yn dod yr un mor bwysig i mi ac my life as my closest friends and my family. allweddol yn fy mywyd â’m ffrindiau agosaf Through talking therapy, there is no doubt a’m teulu. Drwy therapi siarad, nid oes that he put pieces of my mind back together amheuaeth iddo roi darnau fy meddwl yn ôl again, not as they once were, but as they at ei gilydd unwaith eto, nid fel yr arferent should always have been. fod, ond fel y dylent bob amser fod wedi bod.

My first point to anybody reading, watching Fy mhwynt cyntaf i unrhyw un sy’n darllen, or listening today is that if you look for help gwylio neu wrando heddiw yw os ydych yn and if you choose therapy, it may take time, chwilio am help, ac os byddwch yn dewis but you will overcome your illness, and what therapi, gall gymryd amser, ond byddwch yn will happen is that you will take the strongest goresgyn eich salwch, a beth fydd yn parts of your character and you will shape digwydd yw y byddwch yn cymryd y them into a happier, more resilient and more rhannau cryfaf o'ch cymeriad ac yn eu rounded person. You will never go back to defnyddio i greu person hapusach, mwy what you may once have been; you will only gwydn a mwy crwn. Ni fyddwch byth yn go forward as a newer, stronger person. mynd yn ôl i fod fel yr oeddech; dim ond While I first thought that seeking help was an symud ymlaen fel person mwy newydd a admission of weakness, I came to realise that chryf. Er fy mod yn credu ar y cychwyn bod it was the first and most crucial step to a new ceisio cymorth yn cyfaddef gwendid, beginning. Therefore, you should never ever sylweddolais mai hwnnw oedd y cam cyntaf believe that seeking help is a weakness. The a mwyaf allweddol i ddechrau newydd. Felly, willingness to open oneself up, at the most ni ddylech byth gredu bod ceisio help yn vulnerable time of your life, not only to a wendid. Nid yw parodrwydd i fod yn agored, stranger but to your fiercest critic, namely ar yr adeg pan fyddwch fwyaf agored i yourself, is not a weakness or something that niwed, nid yn unig i ddieithryn, ond i’ch you should be ashamed of. It is a strength and beirniad ffyrnicaf, sef chi eich hun, yn it requires enormous courage. Self-awareness wendid neu’n rhywbeth y dylech deimlo is not a weakness, but arrogance is, and cywilydd ohono. Mae'n gryfder ac mae'n seldom do the two go hand in hand. Through gofyn am ddewrder enfawr. Nid yw therapy and counselling, you will also learn hunanymwybyddiaeth yn wendid, ond mae to embrace your vulnerabilities as part of haerllugrwydd, a phur anaml y bydd y ddau your character, for these define us as much as beth yn mynd law yn llaw. Drwy therapi a our strengths. In most cases, they are what chwnsela, byddwch hefyd yn dysgu sut i endear us to others. Think of J.K. Rowling, dderbyn y ffaith eich bod yn agored i niwed Stephen Fry, Winston Churchill, Tolstoy, fel rhan o'ch cymeriad, gan fod y rhain yn ein Keats, Dickens, Florence Nightingale and diffinio gymaint â’n cryfderau. Yn y rhan Abraham Lincoln; these are all people whom fwyaf o achosion, dyma sy’n ein hanwylo ni we admire because they had to overcome at bobl eraill. Meddyliwch am JK Rowling, tremendous challenges to achieve wonderful Stephen Fry, Winston Churchill, Tolstoy, things. We all respect people with battle Keats, Dickens, Florence Nightingale ac scars, and these are what our heroes wear Abraham Lincoln; mae'r rhain oll yn bobl yr without shame. ydym yn eu hedmygu am iddynt orfod goresgyn heriau aruthrol i gyflawni pethau gwych. Rydym oll yn parchu pobl sydd â

55 28/11/2012

chreithiau’r frwydr, a dyma a arddangosir gan ein harwyr heb gywilydd.

The experience of mental illness, without a Mae'r profiad o salwch meddwl, yn ddiau, doubt, shaped me, and it made me realise that wedi fy llywio, ac wedi peri imi sylweddoli the single most important purpose of mai pwrpas pwysicaf y llywodraeth yw helpu government is to help people, communities pobl, cymunedau a sefydliadau drwy and institutions through transitions, to help gyfnodau o newid, er mwyn helpu i adeiladu build safe bridges from what has been to pontydd diogel rhwng yr hyn a fu a’r hyn a what can and should be. This is a simple all fod ac a ddylai fod. Mae hyn yn naratif narrative, but, unfortunately, we often lose syml, ond, yn anffodus, rydym yn aml yn sight of it. If we look at each of the biggest colli golwg ohono. Os edrychwn ar bob un o'r transitional challenges that we all face in life, heriau mwyaf trosiannol a wynebwn ni oll we find that those most likely to struggle and, mewn bywyd, gwelwn mai’r rhai mwyaf therefore, those most likely to suffer from tebygol o gael trafferth ac, felly, y rhai sydd mental illness are the poorest, the most fwyaf tebygol o ddioddef o salwch meddwl isolated, the least powerful and the most yw’r bobl dlotaf, fwyaf ynysig, y lleiaf excluded: the poor, the elderly, children, the pwerus a'r rheini sydd wedi’u hallgáu fwyaf: disabled, care-leavers, members of black and y tlawd, yr henoed, plant, yr anabl, pobl sy'n minority ethnic and lesbian, gay, bisexual and gadael gofal, aelodau o gymunedau o bobl transgender communities, young single dduon a lleiafrifoedd ethnig a phobl lesbiaid, mums, ex-offenders, isolated people in rural hoyw, deurywiol a thrawsrywiol, mamau communities, personnel leaving the armed sengl ifanc, cyn-droseddwyr, pobl ynysig forces, and, as shown by a recent Samaritans mewn cymunedau gwledig, personél sy'n report, middle-aged men living in our most gadael y lluoedd arfog, ac, fel y dangosir yn deprived communities. These are the people adroddiad diweddar y Samariaid, dynion most often ignored by the western political canol oed sy'n byw yn ein cymunedau mwyaf economy, but for whom government exists difreintiedig. Dyma’r bobl a gaiff eu and must prioritise help. hanwybyddu amlaf gan economi wleidyddol y gorllewin, ond y mae’r llywodraeth yn bodoli ar eu cyfer ac mae'n rhaid blaenoriaethu help ar eu cyfer.

My experience shaped my politics, it Llywiodd fy mhrofiad i fy ngwleidyddiaeth i, renewed me and it strengthened me, yet a gwnaeth fy adnewyddu i a’m cryfhau, ond quarter of people outside the Chamber still eto mae chwarter y bobl y tu allan i'r Siambr think that I should not serve them because of yn dal i feddwl na ddylwn eu gwasanaethu that experience. To them, I say: open your oherwydd y profiad hwnnw. Iddynt hwy, eyes and open your mind. To anyone dywedaf: agorwch eich llygaid ac agorwch suffering from mental illness, I urge you to eich meddwl. I unrhyw un sy'n dioddef o seek help, not to be ashamed, to know that salwch meddwl, fe’ch anogaf i geisio with the right treatment, be that therapy, cymorth, ac i beidio â theimlo cywilydd, i drugs or a combination of the two, you will wybod gyda'r driniaeth gywir, boed hynny’n stop enduring life and, instead, you will enjoy therapi, cyffuriau neu gyfuniad o'r ddau, y life. byddwch yn rhoi'r gorau i oddef bywyd ac, yn hytrach, y byddwch yn mwynhau bywyd.

Finally, I thank the organisers of the Time to I gloi, hoffwn ddiolch i drefnwyr ymgyrch Change campaign not just for the enormous Amser i Newid, nid yn unig am eu hymdrech effort that they have put into it, but for their enfawr, ond am eu cefnogaeth anhygoel i incredible support for Members over the Aelodau dros yr wythnosau a'r misoedd sydd weeks and months that have preceded this wedi rhagflaenu’r ddadl hon. Bydd ein debate. Our work will go on, it will go on gwaith yn parhau, bydd yn parhau yfory a tomorrow and in the weeks, months and years thros yr wythnosau, y misoedd a'r to come, but, today, I hope that we have blynyddoedd i ddod, ond, heddiw, gobeithiaf

56 28/11/2012 demonstrated to hundreds of thousands of ein bod wedi dangos i gannoedd ar filoedd o people across Wales who have suffered, do bobl ledled Cymru sydd wedi dioddef, sydd suffer or may suffer from mental illness that yn dioddef neu a all ddioddef o salwch we are not just with you, we are you. meddwl, nid yn unig ein bod gyda chi, ond [Applause.] ein bod fel chi. [Cymeradwyaeth.]

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is to Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y agree the motion. Is there any objection? I cynnig. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad see that there is not. Therefore, the motion is oes. Mae’r cynnig, felly, wedi’i dderbyn, yn agreed, in accordance with Standing Order unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 12.36. No. 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion agreed.

The Presiding Officer: I am sure that all Y Llywydd: Rwy’n siŵr y byddai pob Aelod Members would agree with me that it has yn cytuno â mi ei bod wedi bod yn fraint bod been an absolute privilege to be a part of this yn rhan o'r ddadl hon heddiw. Diolch yn fawr debate today. Thank you very much indeed. iawn yn wir. Symudwn ymlaen yn awr at yr We now move on to what I am sure will be hyn yr wyf yn sicr fydd yn ddadl ardderchog another excellent debate. arall.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Debate

Rheoli Grantiau Grants Management

The Presiding Officer: I have selected Y Llywydd: Rwyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and yn enw Jane Hutt, a gwelliannau 2 a 3 yn amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Aled enw Aled Roberts. Roberts.

Cynnig NDM5105 William Graham Motion NDM5105 William Graham

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn gresynu wrth fethiannau hirdymor 1. Regrets the long-standing failures of the Llywodraeth Cymru mewn perthynas â rheoli Welsh Government in relation to grants grantiau yng Nghymru. management in Wales.

2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i: 2. Calls on the Welsh Government to: a) cyhoeddi datganiadau rheolaidd yn a) issue regular statements outlining actions amlinellu’r camau a gymerir i reoli grantiau taken to improve grants management in yn well yng Nghymru; a Wales; and b) gweithredu mesurau sy’n gwella’r b) implement measures which enhances tryloywder sydd ynghlwm wrth wario arian transparency associated with the spending of cyhoeddus. public money.

Paul Davies: I am pleased to move the Paul Davies: Rwy’n falch o gynnig y cynnig motion tabled in the name of William a gyflwynwyd yn enw William Graham ar

57 28/11/2012

Graham on behalf of the Welsh ran y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig. Conservatives.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (David Melding) i’r Gadair am 3.20 p.m. The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Melding) took the Chair at 3.20 p.m.

It will be no surprise that we will be opposing Ni fydd yn syndod y byddwn yn amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane gwrthwynebu gwelliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn Hutt. However, we will be supporting the enw Jane Hutt. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn other amendments, tabled in the name of cefnogi’r gwelliannau eraill, a gyflwynwyd Aled Roberts on behalf of the Welsh Liberal yn enw Aled Roberts ar ran Democratiaid Democrats. Rhyddfrydol Cymru.

We have tabled this debate in order to Rydym wedi cyflwyno’r ddadl hon er mwyn highlight the importance of managing public tynnu sylw at bwysigrwydd rheoli arian finances effectively. One of the main cyhoeddus yn effeithiol. Un o brif responsibilities of any Government is to gyfrifoldebau unrhyw Lywodraeth yw rheoli manage public funds successfully. It is arian cyhoeddus yn llwyddiannus. Mae’n absolutely crucial that hard-earned taxpayers’ gwbl hanfodol bod arian haeddiannol money is spent effectively and wisely. trethdalwyr yn cael ei wario’n effeithiol ac yn Ensuring value for money is vital, especially ddoeth. Mae sicrhau gwerth am arian yn in the difficult financial circumstances in hollbwysig, yn enwedig yn yr amgylchiadau which we find ourselves today. It is therefore ariannol anodd yr ydym ynddynt heddiw. imperative that robust processes are in place Felly, mae’n hanfodol bod prosesau cadarn ar to achieve the objective that we all want to waith i gyflawni’r nod yr ydym i gyd am ei see, which is effective delivery for the people weld, sef darpariaeth effeithiol ar gyfer pobl of Wales. This debate is not just about us on Cymru. Nid oes a wnelo’r ddadl â ni ar yr this side of the Chamber tabling a debate to ochr hon i’r Siambr yn cyflwyno dadl i criticise the Welsh Government. More feirniadu Llywodraeth Cymru yn unig. Yn importantly, it is about ensuring that public bwysicach na hynny, mae a wnelo â sicrhau funds are managed and spent efficiently in bod arian cyhoeddus yn cael ei reoli a’i order to improve real outcomes for the people wario’n effeithlon er mwyn gwella of Wales. canlyniadau gwirioneddol i bobl Cymru.

I fully accept that Government Ministers Derbyniaf yn llwyr na all Gweinidogion y cannot be responsible for every single penny Llywodraeth fod yn gyfrifol am bob ceiniog attached to every single project. However, sydd ynghlwm wrth bob prosiect unigol. they must ensure that there are sufficient and Fodd bynnag, rhaid iddynt sicrhau bod robust processes in place, which are prosesau digonol a chadarn yn eu lle, sy’n transparent and clear, so that they can dryloyw ac yn glir, fel y gallant fonitro monitor funds effectively. I would certainly cronfeydd yn effeithiol. Yn sicr ni fyddwn yn not expect Ministers to micromanage, but I disgwyl i Weinidogion feicro-reoli, ond am sure that we would all agree that we rwy’n siŵr y byddem i gyd yn cytuno y would expect them to establish procedures byddem yn disgwyl iddynt sefydlu where they are accountable for the money gweithdrefnau lle maent yn atebol am yr that is spent. As well as the Government, arian sy’n cael ei wario. Yn ogystal â’r public bodies have a moral imperative to act Llywodraeth, mae rheidrwydd moesol ar in a manner that ensures the best possible gyrff cyhoeddus i weithredu mewn modd value for money, as does any organisation in sy’n sicrhau’r gwerth gorau posibl am arian, receipt of public money via grants. The fel y gwna unrhyw sefydliad sy’n derbyn economic difficulties facing Wales and the arian cyhoeddus drwy grantiau. Mae’r UK highlight the immense importance of anawsterau economaidd sy’n wynebu Cymru this. However, the inappropriate use of public a’r DU yn tynnu sylw at ba mor bwysig yw funds at the All Wales Ethnic Minority hyn. Fodd bynnag, mae’r defnydd amhriodol Association, for example, highlights the o arian cyhoeddus yng Nghymdeithas

58 28/11/2012 levels of public money that can be spent Lleiafrifoedd Ethnig Cymru Gyfan, er inappropriately here in Wales. enghraifft, yn tynnu sylw at yr arian cyhoeddus y gellir ei wario yn amhriodol yma yng Nghymru.

Naturally, financial discipline should be Yn naturiol, dylai disgyblaeth ariannol fod yn central to public service, and an end must be ganolog i wasanaeth cyhoeddus, a rhaid rhoi put to wasteful spending at all levels of terfyn ar wariant gwastraffus ar bob lefel o government. Effective leadership, a cost- lywodraeth. Amlygwyd arweinyddiaeth conscious culture, professionalism and expert effeithiol, diwylliant sy’n ymwybodol o central functions have been highlighted by gostau, proffesiynoldeb a swyddogaethau the Treasury as four enablers for improving canolog arbenigol gan y Trysorlys fel pedwar financial management. I believe that these galluogydd i wella rheolaeth ariannol. Credaf core ideals should be central to the spending y dylai’r delfrydau craidd hyn fod yn ganolog of all public funds. It is the Welsh i wariant arian cyhoeddus i gyd. Cyfrifoldeb Government’s responsibility to instil these Llywodraeth Cymru yw meithrin y delfrydau ideals into public bodies and organisations. hyn mewn cyrff cyhoeddus a sefydliadau. The Welsh Government must show Rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru ddangos leadership on this issue. arweinyddiaeth ar y mater hwn.

Last year, the Wales Audit Office report Y llynedd, cyfeiriodd adroddiad Swyddfa ‘Grants Management in Wales’ highlighted Archwilio Cymru ‘Rheoli Grantiau yng 18 reports that demonstrated poor grants Nghymru’ at 18 o adroddiadau a oedd yn management by the Welsh Government. That dangos rheolaeth wael o grantiau gan tally extends to 19 when you add the later Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae’r ffigur hwnnw yn report on AWEMA. Sadly, the Welsh cynyddu i 19 pan ychwanegwch yr adroddiad Government has presided over more than a diweddarach ar AWEMA. Yn anffodus, mae decade’s worth of bad management when it Llywodraeth Cymru wedi llywyddu dros fwy comes to grant funding. Clearly, there has na degawd o reolaeth wael o ran arian grant. been a complete lack of lessons learned, Yn amlwg, ni ddysgwyd unrhyw wersi, o given that there have been so many critical ystyried y bu cymaint o adroddiadau Wales Audit Office reports. Do not take my beirniadol gan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru. word for it; the press release accompanying Peidiwch â chymryd fy ngair i am hynny; the ‘Grants Management in Wales’ report mae’r datganiad i’r wasg sy’n cyd-fynd â’r states that adroddiad ‘Rheoli Grantiau yng Nghymru’ yn nodi

‘Wales uses grants more extensively than the bod Cymru’n defnyddio grantiau yn fwy rest of the UK and many grants schemes are helaeth na gweddill y DU a bod llawer o overly complex, with both funders and gynlluniau grantiau yn rhy gymhleth o lawer, recipients rarely learning lessons from ac anaml y mae arianwyr a derbynwyr yn problems which have arisen with past dysgu gwersi o broblemau sydd wedi codi schemes’. gyda chynlluniau yn y gorffennol.

These reports allow us to track unsuccessful Mae’r adroddiadau hyn yn ein galluogi i governance by successive Welsh Labour olrhain llywodraethu aflwyddiannus gan Governments or, indeed, Labour-led Lywodraethau Llafur olynol Cymru neu, yn Governments since the Assembly’s inception. wir, Lywodraethau dan arweiniad Llafur ers Over £2 billion is spent annually by public sefydlu’r Cynulliad. Caiff dros £2 biliwn ei bodies in Wales through grants. We are not wario bob blwyddyn gan gyrff cyhoeddus talking about small sums of money here. The yng Nghymru drwy grantiau. Nid am symiau recent AWEMA fiasco alone has resulted in a bach o arian rydym yn sôn yma. Mae helynt complete loss of more than £0.5 million. That diweddar AWEMA yn unig wedi arwain at is completely unacceptable. Of the 19 reports, golled lwyr o fwy na £0.5 miliwn. Mae there are, unfortunately, plenty of examples hynny’n gwbl annerbyniol. O’r 19 o

59 28/11/2012 of financial waste that has resulted from poor adroddiadau, mae digon o enghreifftiau, yn management of Welsh Government grant anffodus, o’r gwastraff ariannol sydd wedi funding. With regard to the Plas Madoc deillio o reolaeth wael o gyllid grant Communities First partnership, the auditor Llywodraeth Cymru. O ran partneriaeth general found that the Welsh Government’s Cymunedau yn Gyntaf Plas Madoc, canfu’r monitoring was not effective archwilydd cyffredinol nad oedd monitro Llywodraeth Cymru yn effeithiol

‘in identifying the financial management and o ran nodi’r rheolaeth ariannol a’r governance failings at PMCF’. methiannau llywodraethu yn Cymunedau yn Gyntaf Plas Madoc.

It is clear from the report that many concerns Mae’n amlwg o’r adroddiad bod llawer o were raised early on in the process. Although bryderon wedi cael eu codi yn gynnar yn y many issues, including financial broses. Er i lawer o broblemau gael eu tynnu arrangements, governance and the board’s at sylw’r Llywodraeth, gan gynnwys structure, were highlighted to the trefniadau ariannol, llywodraethu a strwythur Government, nothing happened. y bwrdd, ni ddigwyddodd dim.

In January 2011, the Wales Audit Office Ym mis Ionawr 2011, archwiliodd Swyddfa examined the Welsh Government’s delivery Archwilio Cymru ddarpariaeth Llywodraeth of 18 road and rail infrastructure projects. Of Cymru o 18 o brosiectau seilwaith ffyrdd a the 18 completed projects examined, it was rheilffyrdd. O’r 18 o brosiectau a gwblhawyd found that the final costs were higher than the a archwiliwyd, gwelwyd bod y costau estimates made when approval was given. terfynol yn uwch na’r amcangyfrifon a wnaed The total costs of the project increased from pan gawsant eu cymeradwyo. Cynyddodd an estimated £366 million to £592 million—a cyfanswm costau’r prosiect o £366 miliwn staggering £226 million overspent. Recently, amcangyfrifedig i £592 miliwn—gorwariant of course, we have the All Wales Ethnic anhygoel o £226 miliwn. Yn ddiweddar, wrth Minority Association. The Wales Audit gwrs, mae gennym Gymdeithas Lleiafrifoedd Office report points to a lack of stability and Ethnig Cymru Gyfan. Mae adroddiad poor performance, which contributed Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yn cyfeirio at significantly to overall weaknesses in the ddiffyg sefydlogrwydd a pherfformiad gwael, management of its funding of AWEMA. The a gyfrannodd yn sylweddol at wendidau report also states that cyffredinol yn y gwaith o reoli cyllid AWEMA. Noda’r adroddiad hefyd

‘The Welsh Government responded robustly ‘Ymatebodd Llywodraeth Cymru yn gadarn to the concerns that emerged about AWEMA i’r pryderon a gododd ynghylch AWEMA ym in December 2011, but dealing with the mis Rhagfyr 2011 ond bu’r gwaith o ymdrin consequences has been time-consuming and â’r canlyniadau yn llafurus ac nid yw’r the outcome for the public purse is not yet effaith ar arian cyhoeddus yn glir eto’. clear’.

It is extremely disappointing that the Mae’n hynod o siomedig nad yw’r Government has still not made a statement on Llywodraeth o hyd wedi gwneud datganiad ar this issue. Surely, it should have made some y mater hwn. Oni ddylai fod wedi gwneud sort of statement given the seriousness of the rhyw fath o ddatganiad o ystyried difrifoldeb situation. Instead, the Minister for Finance y sefyllfa. Yn hytrach, cafodd y Gweinidog was dragged kicking and screaming to Cyllid ei llusgo o’i hanfodd i ateb cwestiwn answer an urgent question in this Chamber a brys yn y Siambr hon ychydig wythnosau yn few weeks ago. That is not good enough ôl. Nid yw hynny’n ddigon da o ystyried ein given that we are dealing with hundreds of bod yn delio â channoedd ar filoedd o thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money. bunnoedd o arian trethdalwyr.

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I accept that not all of these 19 reports Rwy’n derbyn nad yw pob un o’r 19 o highlight Welsh Government waste adroddiadau hyn yn tynnu sylw at wastraff specifically, however, they do focus attention Llywodraeth Cymru yn benodol, ond maent on the Welsh Government’s poor grants yn hoelio sylw ar reolaeth wael Llywodraeth management. I also accept that the Welsh Cymru o grantiau. Rwy’n derbyn hefyd bod Government has now set up the grants Llywodraeth Cymru bellach wedi sefydlu’r management project, which was established prosiect rheoli grantiau, a sefydlwyd yn 2010 in 2010 as a centre of excellence, created to fel canolfan ragoriaeth, a grëwyd i develop the right processes and procedures ddatblygu’r prosesau a’r gweithdrefnau cywir for dealing with funding. However, still to ar gyfer delio â chyllid. Fodd bynnag, hyd this day, there is no information on the centre heddiw, nid oes unrhyw wybodaeth am of excellence minimum standards. Indeed, safonau gofynnol y ganolfan ragoriaeth. Yn the fact that the grants management project wir, mae’r ffaith bod y prosiect rheoli was established two years ago is also a worry grantiau wedi cael ei sefydlu ddwy flynedd as it failed to acknowledge management yn ôl yn ofid hefyd gan iddo fethu â problems with regard to AWEMA, signifying chydnabod problemau rheoli o ran AWEMA, that yet again a body has been set up within gan ddynodi unwaith eto bod corff wedi cael the Welsh Government that is not meeting ei sefydlu o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru nad the necessary requirements of its remit. That yw’n bodloni gofynion angenrheidiol ei is why, with our motion today, we are calling gylch gwaith. Dyna pam, gyda’n cynnig on the Welsh Government to issue regular heddiw, yr ydym yn galw ar Lywodraeth statements outlining actions taken to improve Cymru i roi datganiadau rheolaidd yn grants management in Wales, and to amlinellu’r camau a gymerir i wella rheolaeth implement measures that enhance the grantiau yng Nghymru, a gweithredu transparency associated with the spending of mesurau sy’n gwella’r tryloywder sy’n public money. gysylltiedig â gwario arian cyhoeddus.

Members will be aware of the recent Public Bydd yr Aelodau’n ymwybodol o adroddiad Accounts Committee interim report into interim diweddar y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon grants management in Wales, which Cyhoeddus ar reoli grantiau yng Nghymru, a recommended that the Welsh Government argymhellodd fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn publishes an annual grants management cyhoeddi adroddiad rheoli grantiau report. The committee argues that this annual blynyddol. Mae’r pwyllgor yn dadlau y report should include progress towards its dylai’r adroddiad blynyddol hwn gynnwys target for administration costs and details of cynnydd tuag at ei tharged ar gyfer costau any non-compliance with its code of practice gweinyddu a manylion am unrhyw ddiffyg for funding the third sector. We on this side cydymffurfio â’i chod ymarfer ar gyfer of the Chamber fully endorse this ariannu’r trydydd sector. Rydym ni ar yr ochr recommendation, and I understand that the hon i’r Siambr yn llwyr gefnogi’r Welsh Government will now publish its first argymhelliad hwn, a deallaf y bydd report in autumn 2013. Why must we wait Llywodraeth Cymru yn awr yn cyhoeddi ei until then? adroddiad cyntaf yn ystod hydref 2013. Pam mae’n rhaid inni aros tan hynny?

There needs to be more transparency in the Mae angen mwy o dryloywder ym maes area of grant funding so that opposition cyllid grant fel y gall gwrthbleidiau graffu’n parties can scrutinise effectively and hold the effeithiol a dwyn y Llywodraeth i gyfrif. Yn Government to account. Historically, there hanesyddol, bu pryderon hefyd ynghylch have also been concerns over the general monitro cyllid grant yn gyffredinol yng monitoring of grant finance in Wales. Grant Nghymru. Mae’n rhaid i arian grantiau gael funding must be evaluated at regular stages to ei werthuso yn rheolaidd i sicrhau ei fod yn ensure that it is operationally effective. I weithredol effeithiol. Rhannaf bryderon share the concerns of the Wales Audit Office Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru a’r Pwyllgor and the Public Accounts Committee Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus ynghylch monitro’r regarding monitoring the delivery of ffordd y caiff canlyniadau sy’n deillio o arian

61 28/11/2012 outcomes resulting from public funding. cyhoeddus eu cyflawni.

Given the catalogue of past failures, I believe O ystyried holl fethiannau’r gorffennol, that the Welsh Government must deliver credaf fod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru regular statements outlining actions taken to gyhoeddi datganiadau rheolaidd yn improve grants management in Wales. This amlinellu’r camau a gymerir i wella’r modd y will increase the transparency and rheolir grantiau yng Nghymru. Bydd hyn yn accountability associated with grants cynyddu’r tryloywder a’r atebolrwydd sy’n management performance, and it will gysylltiedig â rheoli perfformiad grantiau, ac increase public confidence that the right yn cynyddu hyder y cyhoedd bod y camau action is being taken to ensure that public cywir yn cael eu cymryd i sicrhau bod arian money is spent appropriately. cyhoeddus yn cael ei wario’n briodol.

The need to make public spending more Mae’r angen i wneud gwariant cyhoeddus yn accountable to the Welsh public has long fwy atebol i’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru wedi ei been acknowledged. The Beecham review hen gydnabod. Nododd adolygiad Beecham noted that it is essential that citizens can track ei bod yn hanfodol i ddinasyddion allu the performance of local service providers olrhain perfformiad darparwyr gwasanaethau over time so that they can tell whether things lleol dros gyfnod o amser fel y gallant are improving. In the past, too many mistakes ddweud a yw pethau’n gwella. Yn y have been made and too many lessons have gorffennol, mae gormod o gamgymeriadau not been learned. In the future, it is crucial wedi’u gwneud a gormod o wersi heb eu that the Welsh Government ensures that any dysgu. Yn y dyfodol, mae’n hanfodol bod spending through this Assembly is efficient Llywodraeth Cymru yn sicrhau bod unrhyw and effective, delivering value for money and wariant drwy’r Cynulliad hwn yn effeithlon real outcomes for the people of Wales. I urge ac yn effeithiol, gan ddarparu gwerth am Members to support our motion. arian a chanlyniadau go iawn i bobl Cymru. Rwy’n annog yr Aelodau i gefnogi ein cynnig.

Gwelliant 1—Jane Hutt Amendment 1—Jane Hutt

Dileu pwynt 1. Delete point 1.

The Minister for Finance and Leader of Y Gweinidog Cyllid ar Arweinydd y Tŷ the House (Jane Hutt): I move amendment (Jane Hutt): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn fy enw. 1 in my name.

Gwelliant 2—Aled Roberts Amendment 2—Aled Roberts

Cynnwys pwynt 2 newydd ac ailrifo yn unol â Insert as new point 2 and renumber hynny: accordingly:

Yn nodi bod Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru wedi Notes that the Wales Audit Office has said in dweud yn ei hadroddiad ‘Rheoli Grantiau its report ‘Grants Management in Wales’ yng Nghymru’ y ‘caiff llawer o gynlluniau that ‘many grant schemes are poorly grant eu rheoli’n wael, anaml mae gwersi yn managed, lessons are rarely learned and cael eu dysgu ac anaml mae cyllidwyr yn funders frequently fail to tackle recipients’ llwyddo i ddelio â pherfformiad gwael y poor performance’ and calls on the Welsh derbynwyr grantiau’, ac yn galw ar Government to explain how it is addressing Lywodraeth Cymru i egluro sut y mae’n this. mynd i’r afael â hyn.

Gwelliant 3—Aled Roberts Amendment 3—Aled Roberts

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Cynnwys pwynt 2 newydd ac ailrifo yn unol â Insert as new point 2 and renumber hynny: accordingly:

Yn credu bod trefniadau rheoli grantiau Believes the Welsh Government’s grant Llywodraeth Cymru yn canolbwyntio gormod management focuses too much on financial ar fewnbwn ariannol, ac nad ydynt yn inputs and does not focus enough on canolbwyntio digon ar ganlyniadau. outcomes.

Peter Black: I move amendments 2 and 3 in Peter Black: Cynigiaf welliannau 2 a 3 yn the name of Aled Roberts. enw Aled Roberts.

This topic is extremely important, and I thank Mae’r pwnc hwn yn hynod bwysig, a the Welsh Conservatives for bringing it diolchaf i’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig am ddod before us today. Clearly we have not yet had ag ef ger ein bron heddiw. Yn amlwg, nid a debate in the Chamber brought forward by ydym eto wedi cael dadl yn y Siambr a the Government despite the many criticisms gyflwynwyd gan y Llywodraeth, er gwaethaf that have been made of it on this particular y beirniadaethau niferus a wnaed ohoni ar y issue. On that point, I was quite astonished mater penodol hwn. Ar y pwynt hwnnw, fe’m by amendment 1, which seeks to delete the synnwyd gryn dipyn gan welliant 1, sy’n phrase ceisio dileu’r ymadrodd

‘regrets the long-standing failures of the ‘yn gresynu wrth fethiannau hirdymor Welsh Government in relation to grants Llywodraeth Cymru mewn perthynas â rheoli management in Wales’, grantiau yng Nghymru’, as if to deny that they existed. It is fel pe bai’n gwadu eu bod wedi bodoli. tantamount to the Minister saying ‘Je ne Mae’n gyfystyr â’r Gweinidog yn dweud ‘Je regrette rien’, which is quite possibly the ne regrette rien’, sy’n wir o bosibl. Os nad case. If she does not regret anything, then she yw’n difaru dim, yna mae angen iddi ddweud needs to say so upfront, instead of taking hynny, yn hytrach na dileu’r fath away criticism like this. It was said of the feirniadaeth. Dywedwyd am y Bourbons na Bourbons that they learned nothing and wnaethant ddysgu dim ac y gwnaethant forgot everything, and I am beginning to anghofio popeth, ac rwy’n dechrau amau a wonder whether the Government is applying yw’r Llywodraeth yn cymhwyso’r un meini the same criteria in relation to the grant prawf mewn perthynas â’r drefn rheoli management regime. grantiau.

3.30 p.m.

Grant management is an important part of Mae rheoli grantiau yn rhan bwysig o arian Welsh public funding. The Welsh cyhoeddus Cymru. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru Government uses grant funding to fund a yn defnyddio cyllid grant i ariannu ystod wide range of public services, and it is eang o wasanaethau cyhoeddus, ac mae’n important to remember that these include the bwysig cofio bod y rhain yn cynnwys Cyngor Higher Education Funding Council for Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru, awdurdodau Wales, local authorities and various quangos. lleol a chwangos amrywiol. Nid symiau bach It is not simply bite-sized chunks of funding. o arian ydynt. Yn 2009-10, amcangyfrifwyd In 2009-10, over £12 billion was estimated to bod dros £12 biliwn wedi ei ddosbarthu have been distributed in grants. Wales has mewn grantiau. Mae Cymru wedi defnyddio used specific grant funding more heavily than cyllid grant penodol yn fwy helaeth na other parts of the UK, as Paul Davies has rhannau eraill o’r DU, fel y mae Paul Davies already pointed out, with a relatively high eisoes wedi’i nodi, gyda nifer gymharol uchel number of schemes and, consequently, o gynlluniau ac, o ganlyniad, gostau relatively high administration costs. This is a gweinyddu cymharol uchel. Mae hwn yn much more important issue to get right here fater llawer pwysicach i’w gael yn iawn yma

63 28/11/2012 than elsewhere in the UK. The vast majority nag mewn mannau eraill yn y DU. Mae’r of this funding is used properly and funds mwyafrif helaeth o’r cyllid hwn yn cael ei essential services, and it will always be used ddefnyddio’n gywir ac yn ariannu in this way. However, the Welsh Liberal gwasanaethau hanfodol, a chaiff ei Democrats would like to see an improvement ddefnyddio yn y ffordd hon bob amser. Fodd in processes, to ensure that public money is bynnag, hoffai Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol being properly spent, that we have robust Cymru weld gwelliant mewn prosesau, er monitoring procedures in place, which I mwyn sicrhau bod arian cyhoeddus yn cael ei believe is crucial, and that the public has faith wario’n briodol, bod gennym weithdrefnau in those grants being distributed to public and monitro cadarn yn eu lle, sy’n hollbwysig yn voluntary sector programmes in a correct fy marn ni, a bod y cyhoedd yn hyderus y manner. That is something that the 19 reports caiff y grantiau hynny eu dosbarthu rhwng from the Wales Audit Office have rhaglenni’r sector cyhoeddus a’r sector demonstrated is not always the case. gwirfoddol mewn modd cywir. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth nad yw’r 19 o adroddiadau gan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru wedi dangos sy’n wir bob amser.

The Welsh Government’s grant management Mae prosesau Llywodraeth Cymru o ran processes are badly run and in need of an rheoli grantiau yn cael eu rheoli’n wael ac overhaul. That is not my conclusion; that is mae angen eu gweddnewid. Nid fy the conclusion of independent auditors. The nghasgliad i yw hynny; casgliad archwilwyr 2011 Wales Audit Office report is scathing in annibynnol ydyw. Mae adroddiad 2011 its analysis of how the Government handles Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yn ddeifiol yn ei grant management. For example, its overall ddadansoddiad o’r modd y mae’r conclusion is that many grants are poorly Llywodraeth yn ymdrin â rheoli grantiau. Er managed, with funders and recipients failing enghraifft, ei gasgliad cyffredinol yw bod to learn from past mistakes. That is merely nifer o grantiau yn cael eu rheoli’n wael, ac the headline. It also states that high-profile nad yw cyllidwyr na derbynwyr yn dysgu o examples of poor grant management share gamgymeriadau’r gorffennol. Dim ond y common and recurring weaknesses and that pennawd yw hynny. Mae hefyd yn datgan there was a failure to adequately consider the bod enghreifftiau proffil uchel o reoli viability, capacity and capability of grantiau yn wael yn rhannu gwendidau recipients. The report also makes eight cyffredin a chyson a bod methiant i ystyried recommendations, which the Government yn ddigonol hyfywedd, capasiti a gallu should have accepted. However, accepting derbynwyr. Mae’r adroddiad hefyd yn and implementing are two entirely different gwneud wyth argymhelliad, y dylai’r things. Given the highly critical nature of the Llywodraeth fod wedi’u derbyn. Fodd Wales Audit Office report—and as it is now a bynnag, mae derbyn a gweithredu yn ddau year old—the Government should report beth hollol wahanol. O ystyried natur hynod back immediately as to its progress, and do feirniadol adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio so on a regular basis. I am particularly Cymrua gan ei fod bellach yn flwydd concerned that the report could not count all oeddylai’r Llywodraeth adrodd yn ôl ar the grants distributed at the start of the year. I unwaith ar ei gynnydd, a gwneud hynny yn hope that the Minister has made progress on rheolaidd. Rwy’n arbennig o bryderus na this, and I would ask her to tell us how many allai’r adroddiad gyfrif yr holl grantiau a there are and what they cost. Those examples ddosbarthwyd ar ddechrau’r flwyddyn. illustrate how regrettable it is that the Gobeithiaf fod y Gweinidog wedi gwneud Minister is not even prepared to acknowledge cynnydd ar hyn, a byddwn yn gofyn iddi the past failings of the Welsh Government in ddweud wrthym faint ohonynt sydd a beth this regard and is seeking to delete that from oedd eu cost. Mae’r enghreifftiau hynny yn this motion. dangos pa mor anffodus ydyw nad yw’r Gweinidog yn barod hyd yn oed i gydnabod methiannau Llywodraeth Cymru yn y gorffennol yn hyn o beth, a’i bod yn ceisio

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dileu hynny o’r cynnig hwn.

The most high-profile case study, of course, Yr astudiaeth achos fwyaf uchel ei phroffil, is the All Wales Ethnic Minority Association, wrth gwrs, yw Cymdeithas Lleiafrifoedd which shows how badly a failure of Ethnig Cymru Gyfan, sy’n dangos pa mor monitoring can escalate. The lack of wael y gall methiant o ran monitro waethygu. monitoring of AWEMA was widespread and, Roedd y broblem o ran diffyg monitro as a result, public money was wasted. AWEMA yn un gyffredinol ac, o ganlyniad, Ministers were warned of the potential failing gwastraffwyd arian cyhoeddus. of AWEMA in 2002, 2004 and 2007. Yet, Rhybuddiwyd Gweinidogion am fethiant information was not passed on. The report posibl AWEMA yn 2002, 2004 a 2007. Eto, says that there was no improper relationship ni throsglwyddwyd y wybodaeth. Dywed yr between AWEMA officials and Welsh adroddiad nad oedd unrhyw gydberthynas Ministers, and I accept that, but we must also amhriodol rhwng swyddogion AWEMA a make clear that the responsibility for civil Gweinidogion Cymru a derbyniaf hynny, ond servants lies with the Minister, and the rhaid inni hefyd ei gwneud yn glir mai’r Minister has to take responsibility for their Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am weision sifil, a failings as well. The report says that Welsh bod yn rhaid i’r Gweinidog gymryd Government management of grant funding to cyfrifoldeb am eu methiannau hwy hefyd. AWEMA had often been weak. While this Dywed yr adroddiad fod rheolaeth may well have happened properly, it does not Llywodraeth Cymru o gyllid grant AWEMA mean that this is acceptable. The Government yn aml wedi bod yn wan. Er bod hyn efallai will not respond yet to the AWEMA report, wedi digwydd yn briodol, nid yw’n golygu ei but it is crucial that it does so, and as soon as fod yn dderbyniol. Ni fydd y Llywodraeth yn possible. Primarily, it needs to look at how ymateb eto i adroddiad AWEMA, ond mae’n information was not shared between hanfodol ei bod yn gwneud hynny, a chyn departments, and how there appeared to be no gynted ag y bo modd. Yn bennaf, mae angen substantive follow-up to regularly received iddi edrych i weld pam na chafodd y and factually accurate reports of poor wybodaeth ei rhannu rhwng adrannau, a governance and badly used funding. That is pham na chafodd unrhyw waith dilynol not good enough. AWEMA should have been sylweddol ei wneud yn ôl pob tebyg yn dilyn prohibited from receiving public funding adroddiadau ffeithiol gywir a dderbyniwyd years ago. The Government needs to explain yn rheolaidd ar lywodraethu gwael a chyllid a how it would transfer lessons from this ddefnyddiwyd yn wael. Nid yw hynny’n example to create an early warning system ddigon da. Dylai AWEMA fod wedi cael ei for other bodies. gwahardd rhag derbyn arian cyhoeddus flynyddoedd yn ôl. Mae angen i’r Llywodraeth esbonio sut y byddai’n trosglwyddo gwersi o’r enghraifft hon i greu system rhybuddio cynnar ar gyfer cyrff eraill.

There also needs to be a greater focus on Mae angen canolbwyntio mwy hefyd ar outputs and not simply on how money is allbynnau ac nid yn syml ar y modd y caiff yr spent. We spend far too much time looking at arian ei wario. Treuliwn ormod o amser o how money is spent, and not enough on what lawer yn edrych ar sut y caiff arian ei wario, value we are getting for that money. For a dim digon ar ba werth rydym yn ei gael am every grant, the Government should be able yr arian hwnnw. Ar gyfer pob grant, dylai’r to say what it has received in exchange for its Llywodraeth fod yn gallu dweud yr hyn y money. This is a critical motion, which draws mae wedi’i dderbyn yn gyfnewid am ei on crucial lessons from those grant reports, harian. Mae hwn yn gynnig hollbwysig, sy’n and I hope that the Minister takes notice. tynnu ar wersi hollbwysig o’r adroddiadau grant hynny, a gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn talu sylw iddynt.

Antoinette Sandbach: I am very grateful for Antoinette Sandbach: Rwy’n ddiolchgar am

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Peter Black’s last comments. This is a critical sylwadau diwethaf Peter Black. Mae hwn yn motion, and it has been tabled in order for gynnig hollbwysig, ac fe’i cyflwynwyd er Ministers to take notice of it. There certainly mwyn i Weinidogion gymryd sylw ohono. can be no room for complacency in the Yn sicr nid oes lle o fewn Llywodraeth Welsh Government. Every pound of Cymru i laesu dwylo. Rhaid i bob punt o taxpayers’ money must be used in a way that arian trethdalwyr gael ei defnyddio mewn not only delivers value for money but also ffordd sydd nid yn unig yn rhoi gwerth am delivers measurable outcomes. This is the arian, ond sydd hefyd yn cyflawni ambition of the Welsh Conservatives, and I canlyniadau mesuradwy. Dyma uchelgais y hope that it is one that Welsh Ministers Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, a gobeithiaf ei fod yn would also support. un y byddai Gweinidogion Cymru hefyd yn ei gefnogi.

Some 19 reports from the Wales Audit Office Mae tua 19 o adroddiadau Swyddfa are highly critical, and, unfortunately, there is Archwilio Cymru yn feirniadol iawn, ac, yn no shortage of evidence to demonstrate that anffodus, nid oes prinder tystiolaeth i the Welsh Government has tackled the ddangos bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi mynd problems that are highlighted in those i’r afael â’r problemau a amlygir yn yr reports. There is still a long way to go. The adroddiadau hynny. Mae llawer i’w wneud o auditor general has highlighted repeated hyd. Mae’r archwilydd cyffredinol wedi failures to manage grants effectively, that tynnu sylw at fethiannau cyson i reoli lessons are rarely learned, and that poor grantiau yn effeithiol, ac wedi nodi mai performance by the bodies receiving grant anaml y caiff gwersi eu dysgu, ac mai anaml funding is rarely tackled. This poor yr eir i’r afael â pherfformiad gwael gan y performance is all the more concerning given cyrff sy’n cael cyllid grant. Mae’r that the Welsh Government makes greater perfformiad gwael hwn yn achosi hyd yn oed use of grant funding than any other region of fwy o bryder o gofio bod Llywodraeth the UK. Therefore, deficiencies have a far Cymru yn gwneud mwy o ddefnydd o gyllid greater effect on people here. My colleagues grant nag unrhyw ranbarth arall o’r DU. in the Welsh Conservatives, and other Felly, mae diffygion yn cael mwy o effaith o Members, have, or will, discuss many of the lawer ar bobl yma. Mae fy nghyd-Aelodau yn high-profile failures, such as Plas Madoc, y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, ac Aelodau eraill, Communities First and AWEMA. However, I wedi, neu, fe fyddant yn trafod llawer o’r will use my time to highlight a few examples methiannau proffil uchel, megis Plas Madoc, in the food and fisheries sector, and in north Cymunedau yn Gyntaf ac AWEMA. Fodd Wales. bynnag, byddaf yn defnyddio fy amser i dynnu sylw at rai enghreifftiau yn y sector bwyd a physgodfeydd, ac yng ngogledd Cymru.

The Minister for Business, Enterprise, Bydd y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technology and Science will be aware of the Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth yn ymwybodol o significant challenges of delivering grant heriau sylweddol darparu cyllid grant o fewn funding within her department. It was that ei hadran. Yr adran honno oedd yr unig un a department that was the only one that failed fethodd â chyflawni sicrwydd sylweddol o to achieve a substantial assurance from the weithdrefnau archwilio mewnol Llywodraeth Welsh Government’s own internal auditing Cymru ei hun yn ei hadroddiad sicrwydd procedures in its annual assurance report. blynyddol. Un enghraifft o fethiant rheoli One example of the failure of grants grantiau yn fy rhanbarth i yw fferm bysgod management in my region is a fish farm at ym Mhenmon, Ynys Môn. Roedd y busnes Penmon, Anglesey. This business operated hwn yn gweithredu o dan yr enw Selonda UK under the name of Selonda UK Ltd. It Ltd. Denodd £3.6 miliwn o arian Ewropeaidd attracted £3.6 million in Welsh-Government- a weinyddid gan Lywodraeth Cymru, administered European funding, a further £930,000 pellach mewn cyllid grant £930,000 in Welsh Government grant Llywodraeth Cymru, a degau ar filoedd yn

66 28/11/2012 funding, and tens of thousands more when it fwy pan ddaeth ei arian i ben flwyddyn yn ôl. ran out of money a year ago. When the Pan werthwyd y busnes, dim ond un rhan o business was sold, it was worth just a fifth of bump o swm y grant cyllid a gafodd oedd ei the amount of grant funding that it had werth. Cafodd miliynau o bunnoedd o arian received. Millions of pounds of taxpayers’ trethdalwyr ei wastraffu. Cyfeiriais yr achos money was wasted. I referred this case to the hwn at Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru ym mis Wales Audit Office in July, and it is currently Gorffennaf, ac mae’n ystyried y sefyllfa ar looking at the situation. hyn o bryd.

I could also mention the case of Dragon Gallwn hefyd sôn am achos Dragon Feeds, a Feeds, which received £1 million in Welsh- gafodd £1 filiwn o gyllid wedi’i weinyddu Government-administered funding, and a gan Lywodraeth Cymru, a £200,000 further £200,000 directly from Welsh ychwanegol yn uniongyrchol gan Government. That is a case that the Welsh Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae hwnnw’n achos a Government itself referred to South Wales gafodd ei gyfeirio at Heddlu De Cymru gan Police for investigation, after the company Lywodraeth Cymru ei hun er mwyn went bust. Welsh Ministers have also given ymchwilio iddo, ar ôl i’r cwmni fynd i’r wal. just short of £8 million in grant funding to Mae Gweinidogion Cymru hefyd wedi rhoi just one of the abattoirs that the VION Food ychydig o dan £8 miliwn mewn cyllid grant i Group announced that it was selling earlier ddim ond un o’r lladd-dai y cyhoeddodd this month. For everyone concerned, I hope Grŵp Bwyd VION ei fod yn eu gwerthu yn that this is not added to the ever-growing list gynharach y mis hwn. I bawb dan sylw, of Welsh Government failures. gobeithiaf nad yw’n cael ei ychwanegu at y rhestr gynyddol o fethiannau Llywodraeth Cymru.

There have also been concerns in the Forestry Bu pryderon hefyd yn y Comisiwn Commission. In August 2010, Forestry Coedwigaeth. Ym mis Awst 2010, Commission Wales operated the Cydcoed 2 gweithredodd Comisiwn Coedwigaeth programme, which supported community Cymru raglen Cydcoed 2, a oedd yn cefnogi groups in improving local woodlands. The grwpiau cymunedol i wella coetiroedd lleol. Wales Audit Office report outlined serious Amlinellodd adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio failings in connection with the grant award to Cymru fethiannau difrifol mewn cysylltiad â Calon yn Tyfu Ltd. This was a workers’ co- dyfarnu grant i Calon yn Tyfu Cyf. Menter operative, and a company that was limited by gydweithredol gweithwyr oedd hon a guarantee, which received £738,000 from chwmni a oedd yn gyfyngedig drwy warant, a Cydcoed. Part of the criticisms of that gafodd £738,000 gan Cydcoed. Rhan o’r included a lack of transparency and a lack of feirniadaeth honno oedd diffyg tryloywder a accurate information. The scheme criteria and diffyg gwybodaeth gywir. Nid oedd meini procedures for reviewing applications were prawf y cynllun na’r gweithdrefnau ar gyfer not sufficiently robust, increasing the risk adolygu ceisiadau yn ddigon cadarn, gan that significant public investment may not be gynyddu’r risg na fyddai buddsoddiad safeguarded. cyhoeddus sylweddol yn cael ei ddiogelu.

There were also criticisms of how Tir Gofal Beirniadwyd hefyd y modd yr oedd arian Tir funding was spent. Some £4.3 million was Gofal yn ei wario. Rhoddwyd tua £4.3 given to run Tir Gofal, which was 16% of the miliwn i redeg Tir Gofal, sef 16% o total scheme’s cost. Again, the Wales Audit gyfanswm cost y cynllun. Unwaith eto, daeth Office concluded that it cost more to run than Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru i’r casgliad ei bod was originally envisaged. The report yn costio mwy i’w redeg nag a ragwelwyd yn concluded that the scheme needed long-term wreiddiol. Daeth yr adroddiad i’r casgliad financial commitment. We know that that bod angen ymrwymiad ariannol tymor hir ar scheme is going and is being replaced by y cynllun. Gwyddom fod y cynllun yn Glastir. Therefore, once again, we see money diflannu ac yn cael ei ddisodli gan Glastir. that has gone into administration costs, and Felly, unwaith eto, gwelwn arian sydd wedi

67 28/11/2012 other costs, which has not delivered value for cael ei wario ar gostau gweinyddu, a chostau money for taxpayers. eraill, nad yw wedi sicrhau gwerth am arian i drethdalwyr.

The Welsh Conservatives urge Ministers to Mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn annog listen to these concerns. It is time to improve Gweinidogion i wrando ar y pryderon hyn. transparency, and to ensure that taxpayers’ Mae’n bryd gwella tryloywder, a sicrhau bod money is spent in a way that minimises arian trethdalwyr yn cael ei wario mewn waste, and delivers real value for money. ffordd sy’n lleihau gwastraff, ac yn cynnig gwerth gwirioneddol am arian.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Diolch am y cyfle i Ieuan Wyn Jones: Thank you for the gymryd rhan yn y drafodaeth hon. Rwy’n opportunity to take part in this debate. I sylwi, o eiriad y cynnig, mai’r hyn y mae’r notice, from the wording of the motion, that Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn tynnu sylw ato yw’r what the Welsh Conservatives are trying to methiannau mewn perthynas â rheoli grantiau do is to draw attention to the failings in yng Nghymru. Wrth gwrs, mae hynny’n relation to grant management in Wales. That hynod bwysig, ond mae adroddiad yr is, of course, very important, but the auditor’s archwiliwr hefyd yn dweud bod y defnydd a report also says that the use made of grants in wneir o grantiau yn llawer uwch yng Wales in very much higher than in other Nghymru nag mewn gwledydd eraill—mae’n countries—he refers specifically to other cyfeirio yn arbennig at Lywodraethau mewn devolved Governments, such as those in gwledydd datganoledig megis yr Alban a Scotland and Northern Ireland. He is, in fact, Gogledd Iwerddon. Hynny yw, mae’n dweud saying that we depend more on grants and ein bod yn dibynnu mwy ar grantiau ac yn use more of them than is the case with others. defnyddio mwy ohonynt na phobl eraill. Yn Naturally, when that happens, examples of naturiol, os yw hynny’n digwydd, bydd yr mismanagement also increase. enghreifftiau o gamreoli yn uwch.

Pan oeddwn yn Weinidog yn adran yr When I was a Minister in the department for economi, roeddwn yn bryderus iawn the economy, I was very concerned about the ynghylch lefelau’r grantiau hyn. Symudwyd levels of these grants. The departmental diwylliant yr adran honno o fod yn un a oedd culture was moved from being overly yn or-ddibynnol ar grantiau i un a oedd yn dependent on grants to looking more at edrych mwy ar fuddsoddiad. Pan oeddech yn investment. When you talked to siarad â pherchnogion busnesau ac yn gofyn businesspeople and asked them why they pam eu bod wedi penderfynu dilyn y llwybr i decided to take a route into business, only a fyd busnes, canran cymharol fach a oedd yn relatively small percentage said that it was dweud eu bod wedi gwneud hynny oherwydd because of the grants. They listed the other y grantiau. Roeddent yn rhestru’r pethau things that were important to them, such as eraill a oedd yn bwysig iddynt, sef bod yr having a planning system that was more ochr gynllunio’n fwy sensitif i fusnes a bod sensitive to business and the availability of cynlluniau mentora pwysig ar gael. Roedd important mentoring schemes. Young people, pobl ifanc, yn arbennig, yn ystyried especially, viewed mentoring as being much cynlluniau mentora’n llawer iawn pwysicach more important than the small amount of na’r ychydig bach o grant roedd y grant that the Government was able to Llywodraeth yn gallu ei roi iddynt. Felly, provide. Therefore, the One Wales gwnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un waith Government did some significant work in sylweddol i symud oddi wrth y diwylliant order to move away from a grants culture, grantiau, yn enwedig yn adran yr economi. especially in the department for the economy.

Gwn fod hynny wedi digwydd hefyd yn yr I know that the same thing happened in the adran llywodraeth leol, oherwydd, os rwy’n local government department, because, if I cofio’n iawn, roedd degau o grantiau yn remember correctly, tens of grants were paid mynd i adrannau penodol o fewn llywodraeth to specific departments in local government.

68 28/11/2012 leol. Nid yn unig oedd gennych y drefn a Not only did you have the regimes required oedd yn angenrheidiol i drosglwyddo’r to transfer these grants—there was a system grantiau hynny—roedd system ar gyfer bob for every one of them—local authorities also un ohonynt—roedd awdurdodau lleol hefyd complained that they did not want grants for yn cwyno nad oeddent eisiau grant i’r diben the individual purposes specified, as they penodol hwnnw, gan eu bod eisoes yn were already doing the work. They wanted gwneud hynny. Roeddent eisiau mwy o more flexibility in the way that money was hyblygrwydd yn y ffordd roedd yr arian yn passed over. Therefore, the Government cael ei gyflwyno. Felly, newidiodd y changed the arrangements, and mainstreamed Llywodraeth y drefn, gan brif-ffrydio’r arian the money given to local authorities, in order a oedd yn mynd i awdurdodau lleol, i’w to make it easier for them to secure gwneud yn haws iddynt gael hyblygrwydd. flexibility. Clearly, a framework is required Yn amlwg, mae angen fframwaith i sicrhau in order to secure agreement between the bod cytundeb rhwng y Llywodraeth ac Government and local authorities in terms of awdurdodau lleol ynghylch blaenoriaethu o priorities for the money, but work has been safbwynt yr arian, ond mae gwaith wedi’i done. wneud.

Wedi dweud hynny, fodd bynnag, mae’n Having said that, however, it is clear that the amlwg bod angen gwella perfformiad y Government’s performance must be Llywodraeth o ran sut y mae grantiau yn cael improved with regard to how grants are eu dosbarthu, eu monitro a’u gwerthuso. Yn distributed, monitored and evaluated. In this y cyd-destun hwn, mae’n werth edrych ar context, it is worth looking at the auditor’s adroddiad yr archwiliwr o fis Tachwedd report from November 2011, in which he 2011, lle mae’n awgrymu bod ffyrdd y gall y suggests that there are ways in which the Llywodraeth wella rheolaeth grantiau. Yn y Government can improve grant management. lle cyntaf, mae’n dweud bod angen In the first place, he says that the grants symleiddio’r portffolio grantiau a’u gwneud portfolio needs to be simplified and that yn gyflymach, drwy gyfuno cynlluniau lle bo grants need to be paid more quickly, by hynny’n briodol. Os edrychwch ar sawl maes merging scheme, where appropriate. If you Llywodraeth, mae nifer o grantiau ar gael look at a number of fields of Government, sydd bron iawn yn gwneud yr un peth, felly numerous grants are available that do the byddai eu symleiddio’n gwneud bywyd same thing, so simplifying those would make gymaint yn haws i bobl. life easier for so many people.

Mae’r archwiliwr hefyd yn dweud y dylid The auditor also says that the relative merits ystyried rhinweddau cymharol dulliau of alternative methods to grant funding gweithredu eraill heblaw am arian grant, fel y should also be considered, as we did in the gwnaethom yn adran yr economi, cyn department for the economy, before ymrwymo i gynllun grant newydd. Dylid committing to new grant schemes. Robust cymryd camau cadarn pan fydd gordaliadau steps should be taken when overpayments are neu pan fydd grantiau wedi’u made or when grants are misused, by camddefnyddio, drwy atal arian lle bo angen, withholding payments as necessary, clawing adennill symiau priodol ac, os parheir i roi back appropriate sums and, if money is still arian, atgyfnerthu’r gofynion ar y rhai sydd awarded, strengthening requirements on yn ei dderbyn a’r trefniadau monitro. Mae those who receive the money and their hynny’n golygu, lle bo achosion penodol, monitoring arrangements. That means, in bod angen i’r Llywodraeth symud yn gyflym. specific cases, that the Government should move swiftly.

Rydym hefyd wedi dweud, mewn rhai We have also said, in some fields of meysydd polisi Llywodraeth, bod rhaid Government policy, that a move towards symud at fenthyciadau a buddsoddiad. Mae’r loans and investment is required. The Gweinidog yn ymwybodol fod hynny wedi Minister knows that that has happened in digwydd mewn rhai meysydd. Mae some fields. Invest to save is one example of

69 28/11/2012 buddsoddi i arbed yn un enghraifft o’r the direction in which the Government is cyfeiriad y mae’r Llywodraeth yn symud going, as it moves away from awarding iddo yn hytrach na rhoi grantiau penodol. specific grants. That leads to good discipline Mae hynny wedyn yn rhoi disgyblaeth dda i’r for those receiving the money, in that they person sy’n derbyn yr arian, sy’n gwybod know that it has to be paid back. bod rhaid talu’r arian hwnnw yn ôl.

Felly, mae nifer o bethau y gall y Therefore, there are a number of things that Llywodraeth eu gwneud, a gobeithiaf y bydd the Government can do, and I hope that the y Llywodraeth yn gweld ei hun bod angen Government will see for itself that gwella perfformiad yn y maes hwn. performance in this area has to be improved.

3.45 p.m.

Suzy Davies: I am grateful for the Suzy Davies: Rwy’n ddiolchgar am y cyfle i opportunity to speak in this debate. As Paul siarad yn y ddadl hon. Fel y dywedodd Paul Davies said, scrutinising the way in which Davies, craffu ar y modd y mae arian taxpayers’ money is spent is one of our main trethdalwyr yn cael ei wario yw un o’n prif functions, and perhaps we should have swyddogaethau, ac efallai y dylem gael debates of this nature more often. dadleuon o’r math hwn yn fwy aml.

Members, the Wales Audit Office and even Gall Aelodau, Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru a the recipients of public money can point to hyd yn oed y rhai sy’n derbyn arian examples of Welsh Government failures to cyhoeddus gyfeirio at enghreifftiau o monitor and measure progress and to evaluate fethiannau Llywodraeth Cymru i fonitro a the results of third-party expenditure. I would mesur cynnydd a gwerthuso canlyniadau say that, by and large, the Welsh Government gwariant trydydd parti. Byddwn yn dweud remains wary of independent third parties bod Llywodraeth Cymru, ar y cyfan, yn providing what we might consider to be parhau i fod yn wyliadwrus o drydydd public services, and that disconnect between partïon annibynnol sy’n darparu’r hyn y the principle of arm’s-length delivery and the byddem yn ei ystyried yn wasanaethau reality confuses the scrutiny of public cyhoeddus, a bod datgysylltu rhwng yr spending, because it is not always clear egwyddor o weithredu hyd braich a realiti yn where the preliminary responsibility for drysu’r gwaith o graffu ar wariant cyhoeddus, scrutiny falls—buck-passing blurs vision, if gan nad yw’n glir bob tro pwy sydd â’r you like. cyfrifoldeb cychwynnol am graffumae taflu’r baich yn pylu’r golwg, os mynnwch.

First of all, however, here is an example of Yn gyntaf oll, fodd bynnag, dyma enghraifft the public sector default setting. The o ragosodiad y sector cyhoeddus. Gall Cronfa regeneration investment fund for Wales can Buddsoddi Cymru mewn Adfywio ddarparu provide loans and investment capital for benthyciadau a chyfalaf buddsoddi ar gyfer sustainable development and economic datblygu cynaliadwy ac adfywio regeneration. In my region, £13 million of economaidd. Yn fy rhanbarth i, mae £13 RIFW grant money has been earmarked for a miliwn o arian grant Cronfa Buddsoddi local authority plan, which is still at a fairly Cymru mewn Adfywio wedi’i glustnodi ar preliminary stage, to regenerate Neath high gyfer cynllun yr awdurdod lleol, sy’n dal ar street. Now, I like what I have seen of the gam cymharol ragarweiniol, i adfywio stryd plan, but it is nevertheless a case of money fawr Castell-nedd. Nawr, rwy’n hoffi’r hyn aimed at developing the private sector going yr wyf wedi ei weld o’r cynllun, ond serch to a local authority, when better developed hynny arian ydyw sydd wedi’i anelu at applications direct from private sector ddatblygu’r sector preifat yn mynd i companies meet with less enthusiasm. That awdurdod lleol, pan fo ceisiadau a ddatblygir suggests to me a mindset in which it is only yn well yn uniongyrchol gan gwmnïau yn y the public sector that has the answers. sector preifat yn ennyn llai o ddiddordeb.

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Mae hynny’n awgrymu meddylfryd i mi lle mai dim ond y sector cyhoeddus sydd â’r atebion.

The Welsh Government can argue that it has Gall Llywodraeth Cymru ddadlau ei bod moved on from that point, with its grant aid wedi symud ymlaen o’r pwynt hwnnw, and its commissioning of services as gyda’i chymorth grant a’i phroses o evidence that it can let go of the reins, but it gomisiynu gwasanaethau fel tystiolaeth y gall is a common complaint that we have all heard ildio’r awenau, ond mae’n gŵyn gyffredin yr before that grant terms and direct ydym i gyd wedi’i chlywed o’r blaen sef y commissioning can be prescriptive, gall telerau grant a chomisiynu uniongyrchol overcautious and inflexible—the fod yn rhagnodol, yn rhy ofalus ac yn Government’s work, the Government’s way. anhyblyg—gwaith y Llywodraeth, ffordd y You will not get the benefit of an artist’s Llywodraeth. Ni chewch fudd o athrylith genius if you insist that he must paint using artist os mynnwch fod yn rhaid iddo baentio your numbers. What Government needs is a gan ddefnyddio eich rhifau chi. Yr hyn sydd little more openness to the view that angen i’r Llywodraeth ei wneud yw bod providers know what they are doing; it must ychydig yn fwy agored i’r farn bod focus instead on a coherent and consistent darparwyr yn gwybod beth y maent yn ei period of monitoring and evaluation, with wneud; rhaid iddi ganolbwyntio yn lle hynny options for intervention, which proves ar gyfnod cydlynol a chyson o fonitro a whether the providers were right or not. The gwerthuso, gyda dewisiadau ar gyfer Welsh Government might then point to the ymyrryd, sy’n profi a oedd y darparwyr yn growth of arm’s-length commissioned gywir ai peidio. Efallai y gallai Llywodraeth services to show that, actually, it is not all Cymru wedyn gyfeirio at dwf gwasanaethau about command and control. However, wedi’u comisiynu hyd braich i ddangos nad failure in monitoring and evaluation at a yw’r cyfan, mewn gwirionedd, yn ymwneud point in the funding process where the Welsh â gorchymyn a rheoli. Fodd bynnag, mae Government absolutely needs to be on top of methiant wrth fonitro a gwerthuso ar adeg yn detail means that this can be an invitation to y broses ariannu lle mae angen i Lywodraeth repeat one big problem of big Government, Cymru fod yn gwbl glir o ran manylion yn and that is big bureaucracy. golygu y gall hyn fod yn demtasiwn i ailadrodd un broblem fawr sy’n gysylltiedig â Llywodraeth fawr, sef biwrocratiaeth fawr.

In my region, one project to work with Yn fy rhanbarth i, roedd un prosiect yn NEETs required money to come from the gweithio gyda phobl nad ydynt mewn taxpayer to the UK Government, which addysg, cyflogaeth na hyfforddiant yn golygu contributed to the EU budget, which in turn bod angen i’r arian ddod o’r trethdalwyr i fed a budget back to the UK—in this Lywodraeth y DU, a oedd yn cyfrannu at instance, into WEFO—which then invited gyllideb yr UE, a oedd yn ei thro yn rhoi and awarded a tender to a commissioning cyllideb yn ôl i’r DU—yn yr achos hwn, i body that was in fact made up of staff WEFO—a wahoddodd dendr wedyn a’i employed by the same local authority that ddyfarnu i gorff comisiynu a oedd mewn financed an umbrella organisation that acted gwirionedd yn cynnwys staff wedi’u cyflogi as an agent for a consortium of local groups gan yr un awdurdod lleol a ariannodd that, through a representative of the umbrella sefydliad ymbarél a oedd yn gweithredu fel organisation, collectively bid for and then asiant i gonsortiwm o grwpiau lleol a wnaeth secured the delivery referral contract from the gais ar y cyd, drwy gynrychiolydd o’r commissioning body, before the umbrella sefydliad ymbarél, am y contract cyfeirio organisation negotiated with the consortium darpariaeth gan y corff comisiynu a’i ennill, about how the outputs, as we love to call cyn i’r sefydliad ymbarél negodi â’r them, were to be distributed amongst consortiwm ynghylch sut y byddai’r consortium members. Now, if any of you can allbynnau, fel yr ydym yn hoffi cyfeirio remember what I said that money was for in atynt, yn cael eu dosbarthu ymhlith aelodau’r

71 28/11/2012 the first place, well done. This is not the big consortiwm. Nawr, os gall unrhyw un society; this is the big blur. There have never ohonoch gofio ar gyfer beth yr oedd yr arian been so many ways to spend public money, hwnnw yn y lle cyntaf, da iawn chi. Nid y but there is so little confidence in the gymdeithas fawr yw hon; yr aneglurdeb transparency of how it is done. mawr ydyw. Ni fu erioed gymaint o ffyrdd o wario arian cyhoeddus, ond mae cyn lleied o hyder yn nhryloywder y ffordd y caiff ei wneud.

Involving third parties in delivery should Ni ddylai cynnwys trydydd partïon yn y never be an excuse for the dilution of the ddarpariaeth byth fod yn esgus dros wanhau Welsh Government’s accountability for how atebolrwydd Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer sut public money is spent. It does not help y mae arian cyhoeddus yn cael ei wario. Nid scrutiny in situations such as the one I have yw’n helpu’r broses graffu mewn just described that the gene pool is small, and sefyllfaoedd fel yr un yr wyf newydd ei that executives, employees, councillors and disgrifio fod y cyfanswm genynnol mor fach, officers seem to recycle themselves a bod swyddogion gweithredol, cyflogeion, throughout the system, so that relationships cynghorwyr a swyddogion yn ôl pob tebyg and personalities matter more than perhaps yn ailgylchu eu hunain drwy’r system, fel they should. It also means that individuals bod cydberthnasau a phersonoliaethau yn and groups are reluctant to challenge civil bwysicach nag y dylent fod o bosibl. Mae servants or commissioning bodies in case it hefyd yn golygu bod unigolion a grwpiau yn disadvantages them at some time in seeking amharod i herio gweision sifil neu gyrff future opportunities. If there is no freedom to comisiynu rhag ofn bod hynny’n eu rhoi nhw criticise in this culture, it is difficult for the dan anfantais ar ryw adeg yn y dyfodol pan Welsh Government and for us in turn to fyddant yn chwilio am gyfleoedd. Os nad oes genuinely scrutinise how well money is rhyddid i feirniadu yn y diwylliant hwn, spent. mae’n anodd i Lywodraeth Cymru ac i ni yn ein tro graffu’n wirioneddol ar ba mor dda y mae arian yn cael ei wario.

I have said before that I would like to see Rwyf wedi dweud o’r blaen yr hoffwn weld y Government identifying issues, setting Llywodraeth yn nodi materion, pennu strategic objectives and then letting those amcanion strategol a gadael i’r rhai sy’n who know what works locally design a gwybod beth sy’n gweithio yn lleol lunio detailed plan that is relevant to meeting those cynllun manwl sy’n berthnasol i gyflawni’r objectives. Government can then concentrate amcanion hynny. Gall y Llywodraeth wedyn on monitoring the transparency and ganolbwyntio ar fonitro tryloywder ac efficiency of those plans and on evaluating effeithlonrwydd y cynlluniau hynny a the quality of the results, thereby improving gwerthuso ansawdd y canlyniadau, a thrwy the grant aid and commissioning systems so hynny wella’r cymorth grant a’r systemau that they do not discourage third sector comisiynu er mwyn annog mudiadau’r organisations from accumulating sensible trydydd sector i gronni cronfeydd wrth gefn reserves that would enable them to deal with synhwyrol a fyddai’n eu galluogi i ddelio â’r the cash-flow problems that commissioning problemau llif arian a achosir gan gomisiynu. occasions.

Finally, in support of amendment 3, the plea Yn olaf, er mwyn cefnogi gwelliant 3, y ple from the stage and the floor of the Places of o’r llwyfan a’r llawr ar ddiwrnod datblygu Change Cymru development day in Swansea Places of Change Cymru yn Abertawe yr last week was to focus on outcomes. I know wythnos diwethaf oedd bod angen that there were Welsh Government officials canolbwyntio ar ganlyniadau. Gwn fod there and I hope that they were listening. swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yno a gobeithiaf eu bod yn gwrando.

72 28/11/2012

Jenny Rathbone: As Suzy Davies Jenny Rathbone: Fel y mae Suzy Davies yn recognises, it is our job to scrutinise public cydnabod, ein gwaith ni yw craffu ar wariant spending. That is what we are here for as cyhoeddus. Dyna pam yr ydym yma fel backbenchers. Therefore, Paul Davies’s aelodau’r meinciau cefn. Felly, roedd opening remarks were a little inappropriate in sylwadau agoriadol Paul Davies ychydig yn that he was putting the blame exclusively on amhriodol am ei fod yn rhoi’r bai yn gyfan the Government for failures to spend money gwbl ar y Llywodraeth am fethu â gwario wisely in the past. Obviously, it is the central arian yn ddoeth yn y gorffennol. Yn amlwg, job of Government to spend the money under swyddogaeth ganolog y Llywodraeth yw its control wisely, but it is also our job, as gwario’r arian sydd o dan ei rheolaeth yn scrutineers, to ensure that we are focused on ddoeth, fel craffwyr, i sicrhau ein bod yn ensuring that that money is spent on the canolbwyntio ar y diben y rhoddir yr arian ar purpose for which it is given and that we are ei gyfer a’n bod yn ddyfal yn y ffordd y persistent in the way that we scrutinise to craffwn er mwyn sicrhau, lle erys cwestiynau ensure that where questions remain heb eu hateb, y cânt eu hateb. unanswered, they get answered.

Antoinette Sandbach: Will you take an Antoinette Sandbach: A wnewch chi intervention? dderbyn ymyriad?

Jenny Rathbone: No, not at the moment. Jenny Rathbone: Na wnaf, ddim ar hyn o bryd.

In the Public Accounts Committee, we have Yn y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus, rydym seen the considerable shortcomings that have wedi gweld y diffygion sylweddol sydd wedi been highlighted by the All Wales Ethnic cael eu hamlygu gan sefyllfa Cymdeithas Minority Association situation, which is an Lleiafrifoedd Ethnig Cymru Gyfan, sydd yn ongoing inquiry, and the River Lodge Hotel ymchwiliad parhaus, ac ymchwiliad inquiry in Llangollen. Members who were Gwesty’r River Lodge yn Llangollen. Mae here in previous Assemblies also need to look angen i Aelodau a oedd yma mewn deep into their own hearts as to what their Cynulliadau blaenorol hefyd edrych yn roles might have been in terms of avoiding ddwfn i’w calonnau eu hunain i weld pa rolau some of the problems that we are now y gallent fod wedi eu chwarae o ran osgoi dealing with. rhai o’r problemau yr ydym yn delio â hwy yn awr.

Mark Isherwood: Will you take an Mark Isherwood: A wnewch chi dderbyn intervention? ymyriad?

Jenny Rathbone: No, I am not taking Jenny Rathbone: Na wnaf, ni wnaf dderbyn interventions. ymyriadau.

The Public Accounts Committee has written Mae’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus wedi an interim report on grants management, ysgrifennu adroddiad interim ar reoli which gave 15 clear recommendations, all of grantiau, a roddodd 15 o argymhellion clir, y which have been accepted by the mae pob un ohonynt wedi cael eu derbyn gan Government. That is an indication of the y Llywodraeth. Mae hynny’n arwydd o Government’s seriousness of purpose. I agree ddifrifoldeb diben y Llywodraeth. Cytunaf that acceptance is not the same as nad yw derbyn yr un peth â gweithredu, ond implementation, but I am impressed by the rwyf wedi fy mhlesio’n fawr gan ffocws y Government’s focus on outputs and Llywodraeth ar allbynnau a chanlyniadau, yn outcomes, rather than processes and inputs, hytrach na phrosesau a mewnbynnau, sy’n which I am sure is leading to better arwain, mae’n siŵr gennyf, at lywodraeth government. However, it is our job to ensure well. Fodd bynnag, ein gwaith ni yw sicrhau collectively better value for money for the gwerth gwell ar y cyd am arian am y cyllid

73 28/11/2012 grant funding that is provided in the future. grant sy’n cael ei ddarparu yn y dyfodol.

When the Public Accounts Committee went Pan aeth y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus i to Northern Ireland in September, it was Ogledd Iwerddon ym mis Medi, roedd yn interesting to observe Northern Ireland’s ddiddorol arsylwi Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Public Accounts Committee looking into the Cyhoeddus Gogledd Iwerddon yn ymchwilio failures of the Northern Ireland Housing i fethiannau Gweithrediaeth Dai Gogledd Executive, which was a sorry tale. I was told Iwerddon, a oedd yn hanes trist. Dywedwyd by people in the local media that this was one wrthyf gan bobl yn y cyfryngau lleol fod hwn of several issues that were going to be aired yn un o nifer o faterion a oedd yn mynd i gael in the not-too-distant future. The explanation sylw yn y dyfodol agos. Roedd yr esboniad a given was partly to do with the fact that roddwyd yn ymwneud yn rhannol â’r ffaith Northern Ireland had suffered so many years bod Gogledd Iwerddon wedi dioddef cymaint of direct rule that civil servants had become o flynyddoedd o reolaeth uniongyrchol fel used to a quiet life, undisturbed by the bod gweision sifil wedi dod i arfer â bywyd impertinent questions of local politicians, tawel, heb wleidyddion lleol yn tarfu arnynt who were, in any case, consumed by the 30 gyda’u cwestiynau digywilydd, a oedd, beth years of conflict. In a slightly less dramatic bynnag, wedi’u llethu gan y 30 mlynedd o way, it is also true that, up until 1999, the wrthdaro. Mewn ffordd ychydig yn llai Welsh Office, in distant Whitehall, had a lot dramatig, mae hefyd yn wir bod gan y less scrutiny and oversight in relation to how Swyddfa Gymreig, yn Whitehall bell, hyd at money was spent in Wales. It is undoubtedly 1999, gryn dipyn yn llai o bwerau craffu a the case that devolution has led to much throsolwg mewn perthynas â’r modd yr oedd better oversight of the way in which money is arian yn cael ei wario yng Nghymru. Yn ddi- spent on devolved services. au mae datganoli yn golygu bod y ffordd y caiff arian ei wario ar wasanaethau datganoledig yn cael ei goruchwylio’n well o lawer.

Darren Millar: I am grateful to Jenny Darren Millar: Rwy’n ddiolchgar i Jenny Rathbone for taking the intervention. It was a Rathbone am dderbyn yr ymyriad. Roedd yr very interesting visit that the Public Accounts ymweliad a wnaeth y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Committee made to Northern Ireland. Would Cyhoeddus â Gogledd Iwerddon yn ddiddorol you agree with me, Jenny, that one of the iawn. A fyddech yn cytuno â mi, Jenny, mai things that aided the committee’s scrutiny un o’r pethau a wnaeth gynorthwyo proses was the availability of longer periods for its graffu’r pwyllgor oedd bod cyfnodau hwy ar meetings, to be able to dissect and get to the gael ar gyfer ei gyfarfodydd, er mwyn gallu bottom of the problems that had been dadansoddi a datrys y problemau yr oedd experienced in the Northern Ireland Housing Gweithrediaeth Dai Gogledd Iwerddon Executive, which we looked at? Do you agree wedi’u hwynebu, y gwnaethom edrych that we ought to have the same luxury in our arnynt? A ydych yn cytuno y dylem gael yr committee meetings? un manteision yn ein cyfarfodydd pwyllgor ni?

Jenny Rathbone: No. [Laughter.] It was Jenny Rathbone: Nac ydw. [Chwerthin.] interesting that they went on for four hours Roedd yn ddiddorol eu bod wedi parhau am without a break and they are obviously robust bedair awr heb egwyl ac maent yn amlwg yn individuals, but I do not think that longer unigolion cryf, ond ni chredaf fod meetings, as such, produce better scrutiny. It cyfarfodydd hwy, fel y cyfryw, yn golygu is important that we, as backbenchers, are not proses graffu well. Mae’n bwysig nad ydym, trying to cover too many bases. One of the fel aelodau’r meinciau cefn, yn ceisio ymdrin problems in previous Assemblies was that â gormod o bethau. Un o’r problemau mewn Assembly Members were trying to do too Cynulliadau blaenorol oedd bod Aelodau’r many things and, as a result, were doing them Cynulliad yn ceisio gwneud gormod o bethau all not well enough. When I became a ac, o ganlyniad, nid oeddent yn eu gwneud yn

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Member, I was keen to ensure that we were ddigon da. Pan ddeuthum yn Aelod, roeddwn able to concentrate and focus on developing yn awyddus i sicrhau ein bod yn gallu some specialisation. That has been beneficial canolbwyntio ar ddatblygu rhyw fath o in enabling us to pursue issues where we arbenigedd. Mae hynny wedi helpu i’n think things are not going particularly well. I galluogi i fynd ar drywydd materion lle have had experience—I have run out of time, rydym yn meddwl nad yw pethau’n mynd yn sorry. arbennig o dda. Rwyf wedi cael profiad— mae’n ddrwg gennyf, mae fy amser ar ben.

Janet Finch-Saunders: I think that this is a Janet Finch-Saunders: Credaf fod hon yn very important debate and I was disappointed ddadl bwysig iawn ac roeddwn yn siomedig at one time to see only four Government ar un adeg i weld dim ond pedwar Aelod o’r Members present, with 26 Members out of 30 Llywodraeth yn bresennol, gyda 26 allan o 30 missing from such a debate, but there we go. o’r Aelodau ar goll o ddadl o’r fath, ond dyna ni.

There is a clear commitment on this side of Mae ymrwymiad clir ar yr ochr hon i’r the Chamber to improve upon the current Siambr i wella sefyllfa bresennol rheoli situation of grants management in Wales. grantiau yng Nghymru. Gall unrhyw un weld Anyone can see that there is no record to be nad oes record i ymfalchïo ynddi o ran y proud of as regards the Welsh Labour ffordd y mae Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru wedi Government’s handling of grants over the ymdrin â grantiau dros y blynyddoedd. Mae years. Both the Wales Audit Office’s report adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yn in 2011 and the recent AWEMA debacle 2011 a llanastr AWEMA yn ddiweddar yn clearly highlight that the processes currently dangos yn glir bod y prosesau a ddefnyddir ar employed to manage grants in Wales are hyn o bryd i reoli grantiau yng Nghymru yn failing. It is little wonder that the Wales methu. Nid yw’n syndod bod Swyddfa Audit Office has now had enough of such Archwilio Cymru bellach wedi cael digon o poor management by this Welsh Government reolaeth wael o’r fath gan y Llywodraeth hon after 19 reports stating that. The catalogue of yng Nghymru ar ôl 19 o adroddiadau yn waste and mismanagement over the years datgan hynny. Nid yw’r rhestr o wastraff a does not make for good news and includes chamreoli dros y blynyddoedd yn newyddion £1.57 million to bail out the National Botanic da ac mae’n cynnwys £1.57 miliwn i achub Garden of Wales in 2005, when its plans Gardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol Cymru yn 2005, were not sufficient enough to ensure its pan nad oedd ei chynlluniau yn ddigonol i solvency, and the £60 million lost while sicrhau na fyddai’n mynd yn fethdalwr, a’r protecting public money in LG projects in £60 miliwn a gollwyd tra’n diogelu arian 2007, when only half of the 6,000 jobs cyhoeddus ym mhrosiectau LG yn 2007, pan promised materialised and the plant ddaeth ond hanner y 6,000 o swyddi a eventually closed in 2006, with £131 million addawyd yn ffaith, a chaeodd y gwaith yn y to be invested in total with £71 million pen draw yn 2006, gyda £131 miliwn i’w clawed back. fuddsoddi i gyd a £71 miliwn i’w adfachu.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Could you remind us, Ieuan Wyn Jones: A allech ein hatgoffa, who gave the grant to LG originally? pwy roddodd y grant i LG yn wreiddiol?

Janet Finch-Saunders: How can you ask a Janet Finch-Saunders: Sut y gallwch ofyn question like that when this is public money? cwestiwn felly pan fo hyn yn arian [Interruption.] It is public money. Are you cyhoeddus? [Torri ar draws.] Mae’n arian saying that it was out of William Hague’s cyhoeddus. A ydych yn dweud iddo ddod back pocket? This is all public money. It is allan o boced cefn William Hague? Mae hwn not your money or our money; it is the i gyd yn arian cyhoeddus. Nid eich arian chi public’s money. na’n harian ni ydyw; arian cyhoeddus ydyw.

There is also the poor delivery of the Home Rhaid sôn hefyd am y modd gwael y

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Energy Conservation Act 1995 in Wales. cyflwynwyd Deddf Arbed Ynni Cartref 1995 [Interruption.] You may not be proud of the yng Nghymru. [Torri ar draws.] Efallai nad record that I am reading out. Councils were ydych yn falch o’r record yr wyf yn ei setting individual targets, which made it darllen. Roedd cynghorau yn gosod targedau difficult to monitor and resulted in patchy unigol, a oedd yn ei gwneud yn anodd reporting methods, despite some £2.1 million monitro ac a arweiniodd at ddulliau adrodd being provided. There were also serious anghyson, er i tua £2.1 miliwn gael ei shortcomings in managing the Plas Madoc ddarparu. Roedd diffygion difrifol hefyd o Communities First scheme in 2010. ran rheoli cynllun Cymunedau yn Gyntaf Plas Madoc yn 2010.

Mark Isherwood: Given that he refused the Mark Isherwood: O ystyried iddo wrthod previous speaker to give way, will you ildio i’r siaradwr blaenorol a wnewch chi acknowledge that investigations such as that gydnabod bod ymchwiliadau fel yr un i Blas into Plas Madoc and others only happened Madoc ac eraill ond wedi digwydd oherwydd because of the persistence of opposition dyfalbarhad Aelodau’r gwrthbleidiau yn Members in referring matters to the Wales cyfeirio materion at Swyddfa Archwilio Audit Office, after the Welsh Government Cymru, ar ôl i Lywodraeth Cymru wrthod refused to respond to the whistleblowers ymateb i’r chwythwyr chwiban pan when they brought the facts to it? gyflwynwyd y ffeithiau iddi?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. I Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Credaf i think that Members declined to give way. Aelodau wrthod ildio.

Janet Finch-Saunders: It is therefore Janet Finch-Saunders: Felly, mae’n destun regretful that the Welsh Government has gofid bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi darparu provided a system of managing grants that is system o reoli grantiau sy’n gymhleth, yn complex, opaque and prone to poor afloyw ac sy’n dueddol o greu rheolaeth management, with little ongoing monitoring. wael, gyda fawr ddim gwaith monitro The system cannot be allowed to carry on in parhaus. Ni ellir caniatáu i’r system barhau ar its present form, which is why I welcome our ei ffurf bresennol, a dyna pam rwy’n party’s suggestion of ensuring more croesawu awgrym ein plaid i sicrhau mwy o transparency within grants management. dryloywder wrth reoli grantiau.

The overall conclusion of the work of the Casgliad cyffredinol gwaith Swyddfa Wales Audit Office was that many grants are Archwilio Cymru oedd bod llawer o grantiau poorly managed, with funders and recipients yn cael eu rheoli’n wael, gyda chyllidwyr a failing to learn from past mistakes. Key derbynwyr yn methu â dysgu o weaknesses identified include failure to gamgymeriadau’r gorffennol. Mae consider viability, capacity and the capability gwendidau allweddol a nodwyd yn cynnwys of recipients, and weakness in ongoing methu ag ystyried hyfywedd, capasiti a gallu monitoring is a recurring feature. It stated derbynwyr, ac mae gwendid yn y gwaith that lessons are rarely learned and funders monitro parhaus yn nodwedd fynych. frequently fail to tackle recipients’ poor Nododd mai anaml y mae gwersi’n cael eu performance. It identified that the level and dysgu a bod cyllidwyr yn aml yn methu â frequency of monitoring should include, as a mynd i’r afael â pherfformiad gwael minimum, monthly management accounts, derbynwyr. Nododd y dylai lefel ac amlder y cash flow forecasts and key business monitro gynnwys, fel lleiafswm, gyfrifon performance indicators. It also found that rheoli misol, rhagolygon llif arian a funders did not tackle recipients’ poor dangosyddion perfformiad busnes allweddol. performance effectively. Canfu hefyd nad oedd cyllidwyr yn mynd i’r afael â pherfformiad gwael derbynwyr yn effeithiol.

The concern about the transparency of Mae’r pryder am dryloywder cyllid yn mynd

76 28/11/2012 funding goes right to the heart of this Welsh yn syth at galon y Llywodraeth hon yng Government. There are grave concerns about Nghymru. Mae pryderon mawr ynglŷn â the top-slicing of £10 million from the local brigdorri £10 miliwn o’r setliad llywodraeth government settlement, creating a leol, gan greu cronfa gydweithio, heb unrhyw collaboration fund, with no transparency gytundebau tryloywder ar waith, yn agreements in place, in addition to the £45 ychwanegol at y £45 miliwn a ddisgwylir ar million in place expected for that project. As gyfer y prosiect hwnnw. Fel y dywedodd the Wales Audit Office has said, the Welsh Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, dylai Government should be making sure that Llywodraeth Cymru fod yn sicrhau bod project outcomes and the standards expected canlyniadau’r prosiect a’r safonau for financial and project management are disgwyliedig ar gyfer rheolaeth ariannol a clearly defined and agreed in writing. Yet, we rheoli prosiectau yn cael eu diffinio’n glir ac are still uncertain as to whether this is even y cytunir arnynt yn ysgrifenedig. Eto i gyd, being considered. rydym yn dal yn ansicr a yw hyn hyd yn oed yn cael ei ystyried.

4.00 p.m.

Why do we expect transparency and Pam rydym yn disgwyl tryloywder ac accountability? As has already been said, this atebolrwydd? Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, arian is public money, and as we have heard so cyhoeddus yw hwn, a chan ein bod wedi many times that this Welsh Labour clywed cymaint o weithiau bod y Government is making cutbacks, every penny Llywodraeth Lafur hon yng Nghymru yn is vital and has to be thought of in such gwneud toriadau, mae pob ceiniog yn transparent and accountable ways. It is hollbwysig a rhaid ei hystyried felly mewn imperative that public bodies ensure best ffyrdd tryloyw ac atebol. Mae’n hanfodol bod value for money. We cannot have situations cyrff cyhoeddus yn sicrhau gwerth gorau am where there is the inappropriate use of public arian. Ni allwn gael sefyllfaoedd lle y gwneir money, as was the case with AWEMA. defnydd amhriodol o arian cyhoeddus, fel yn Regular statements should be issued by the achos AWEMA. Dylai datganiadau rheolaidd Welsh Government to show the actions it has gael eu cyhoeddi gan Lywodraeth Cymru i taken to improve grants management. The ddangos y camau y mae wedi eu cymryd i Welsh Conservatives have consistently wella’r modd y rheolir grantiau. Mae’r challenged the Welsh Government to get all Ceidwadwyr Cymreig wedi herio 22 local authorities to publish expenditure of Llywodraeth Cymru yn gyson i gael pob un over £500, but that has been dismissed as o’r 22 awdurdod lleol i gyhoeddi gwariant being too onerous: that is lazy Labour in dros £500, ond diystyrwyd hynny am ei fod action. Perhaps this is an opportunity to yn rhy feichus: Llafur ddiog ar waith yw ensure greater scrutiny of how all public hynny. Efallai fod hyn yn gyfle i graffu’n money is spent. When it comes to grants fwy ar y modd y caiff yr holl arian cyhoeddus management, the buck stops with the Welsh ei wario. O ran rheoli grantiau, cyfrifoldeb Government. It is the Government’s duty to Llywodraeth Cymru ydyw. Dyletswydd y oversee how the public’s money is spent, and Llywodraeth yw goruchwylio’r modd y caiff to spend it wisely. Clearly, the past 12 years arian cyhoeddus ei wario, a’i wario’n ddoeth. have seen an appalling waste of funding. Yn amlwg, mae’r 12 mlynedd diwethaf wedi gweld gwastraff cyllid ofnadwy.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Dewch i ben yn Conclude now, please. awr, os gwelwch yn dda.

Janet Finch-Saunders: The proposals Janet Finch-Saunders: Mae’r cynigion a outlined are a first step in recognising that the amlinellir yn gam cyntaf tuag at gydnabod current grants management structure needs to bod angen i’r strwythur rheoli grantiau be transparent and accountable. This is a— presennol fod yn dryloyw ac yn atebol. Mae hyn yn—

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The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. I call Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Galwaf ar Mike Mike Hedges. Hedges.

Mike Hedges: For the record—because what Mike Hedges: Ar gyfer y cofnod—oherwydd Janet Finch-Saunders said will go on the bydd yr hyn a ddywedodd Janet Finch- record—as I stand to speak, 16 out of a Saunders yn cael ei gofnodi—wrth imi sefyll possible 27 Labour Members are here, three i siarad, mae 16 allan o 27 o’r Aelodau Llafur out of the five Liberal Democrat Members posibl yma, tri allan o’r pum Aelod o’r are here, and five out of the 10 Plaid Cymru Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a phump allan o’r Members are here. [Interruption.] It is now 10 Aelod o Blaid Cymru yma. [Torri ar 17 out of 27. That needs to go on the record draws.] Mae bellach yn 17 allan o 27. Mae for the benefit of all Members of this angen cofnodi hynny er budd holl Aelodau’r Chamber. Siambr hon.

I am very pleased to hear Janet Finch- Rwy’n falch iawn o glywed beirniadaeth hallt Saunders’s great criticism of William Hague Janet Finch-Saunders o William Hague ac and the WDA. I concur, and I now know that Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru. Cytunaf, a gwn we will not have another Conservative debate bellach na chawn ddadl Geidwadol arall ar ba on how good the WDA was. mor dda yr oedd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru.

I will turn to the important point of grants Trof at y pwynt pwysig o reoli grantiau. Mae management. There are three questions with tri chwestiwn mewn perthynas â grantiau. Y regard to grants. The first is: why give them? cyntaf yw: pam eu rhoi? Yr ail yw sut i’w The second is how to distribute them, and the dosbarthu, ac mae’r trydydd yn ymwneud â third relates to the evaluation of their success. gwerthuso eu llwyddiant. Rhoddir grantiau Grants are given for a variety of reasons, and am amrywiaeth o resymau, ac mae’r rhan most fall into one of three categories. One is fwyaf yn perthyn i un o dri chategori. Mae un to drive a policy, be that through grants for yn llywio polisi, boed hynny drwy grantiau ar housing, transport or pupil deprivation. gyfer tai, trafnidiaeth neu amddifadedd Another is to support economic regeneration, disgyblion. Mae un arall yn cefnogi adfywio be that through city centre regeneration economaidd, boed hynny drwy grantiau grants, of which Swansea has been lucky to adfywio canol dinas, y mae Abertawe wedi be a recipient recently, or start-up grants for bod yn ffodus i dderbyn un yn ddiweddar, companies. Another category is grants to neu grantiau cychwyn ar gyfer cwmnïau. voluntary organisations because of their Categori arall yw grantiau i sefydliadau importance to an area, such as for children’s gwirfoddol oherwydd eu pwysigrwydd i summer schemes and schemes to support ardal, megis ar gyfer cynlluniau haf i blant a people with disabilities. A lot of those grants chynlluniau i gefnogi pobl ag anableddau. make a big difference to people. Mae llawer o’r grantiau hynny yn gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i bobl.

On how to distribute grants, as a council O ran sut i ddosbarthu grantiau, fel leader it was easy to distribute all either arweinydd cyngor roedd yn hawdd directly or via the local council for voluntary dosbarthu’r cyfan naill ai’n uniongyrchol neu action. For the Welsh Government it is not drwy’r cyngor gweithredu gwirfoddol lleol. that simple, given the number of Ar gyfer Llywodraeth Cymru, nid yw mor organisations that are end recipients. The syml â hynny, o ystyried nifer y sefydliadau question the Government should ask, sy’n derbyn grant yn y pen draw. Y cwestiwn perhaps, is: can we fund them directly? How y dylai’r Llywodraeth ei ofyn, efallai, yw: a do we reduce the number of intermediate allwn eu hariannu yn uniongyrchol? Sut recipients? That is a matter that I have been ydym yn gostwng nifer y derbynwyr concerned about for some time, and this is canolradd? Mae hynny’n fater yr wyf wedi something we have inherited from the former bod yn poeni yn ei gylch ers cryn amser, ac Welsh Office and which has gone through mae hyn yn rhywbeth yr ydym wedi ei

78 28/11/2012 two coalitions. If an organisation’s main etifeddu gan yr hen Swyddfa Gymreig ac reason for existence is to receive grants from sydd wedi mynd trwy ddwy glymblaid. Os the Government and then to redistribute mai prif reswm am fodolaeth sefydliad yw them, is there a better way of providing the cael grantiau gan y Llywodraeth a’u grant directly? What is the cost of having an hailddosbarthu wedyn, a oes ffordd well o intermediary body? ddarparu’r grant yn uniongyrchol? Beth yw’r gost o gael corff cyfryngol?

Evaluation can be carried out in two ways. Gall gwerthuso gael ei gynnal mewn dwy The simple way is to look at whether the ffordd. Y ffordd syml yw edrych i weld a money has been spent and has provided what yw’r arian wedi cael ei wario ac wedi was expected—that is, did it do what was darparu’r hyn a ddisgwyliwyd—hynny yw, a said on the tin? That is what most of us wnaeth yr hyn y dylai fod wedi’i wneud? would look for. There is also the audit Dyna’r hyn y byddai’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn method, which looks at whether an audit trail chwilio amdano. Ceir y dull archwilio hefyd, has been provided, grant money has been sy’n ystyried a ddarparwyd llwybr archwilio, shown separately and all the accountancy a yw’r arian grant wedi ei nodi ar wahân ac a conventions have been followed. ddilynwyd yr holl gonfensiynau cyfrifyddu.

Turning to questions on grants management, Gan droi at gwestiynau ar reoli grantiau, mae is the Welsh Government already taking firm Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes yn cymryd camau and decisive action to improve the gweithredu cadarn a phendant i wella’r modd management of grants to third sector y rheolir grantiau i sefydliadau’r trydydd organisations? The Government has already sector? Mae’r Llywodraeth eisoes wedi produced evidence on that. The Welsh cynhyrchu tystiolaeth ar hynny. Mae Government has already implemented a Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes wedi gweithredu number of commitments made following the nifer o ymrwymiadau a wnaed yn dilyn National Assembly’s Public Accounts ymchwiliad Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus y Committee’s inquiry into grants management Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i reoli grantiau yng in Wales. As part of the provision of the local Nghymru. Fel rhan o ddarpariaeth y setliad government settlement announced in llywodraeth leol a gyhoeddwyd ym mis October, several grants have been transferred Hydref, trosglwyddwyd nifer o grantiau i’r into the settlement for 2013-14, amounting to setliad ar gyfer 2013-14, gan roi cyfanswm o over £91 million in funding previously dros £91 miliwn mewn cyllid a weinyddwyd administered through specific grants. The yn flaenorol drwy grantiau penodol. downside of that is that the money going out Anfantais hynny yw nad yw’r arian sy’n via the formula may no longer go to the mynd allan drwy gyfrwng y fformiwla efallai authorities that are using it currently, and the yn mynd mwyach i’r awdurdodau sy’n ei money may not be used for what the grant ddefnyddio ar hyn o bryd, ac efallai na chaiff was previously given for. Both of those yr arian ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer yr hyn y things will occur, I would guess, in most defnyddiwyd y grant ar ei gyfer o’r blaen. cases. Giving grants to local authorities Bydd y ddau beth hynny yn digwydd, fe allows the Welsh Government to set the dybiwn i, yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion. Mae agenda. Had they not been funded by specific rhoi grantiau i awdurdodau lleol yn caniatáu i grants, would local authorities have used the Lywodraeth Cymru osod yr agenda. Pe na money that they received on the care in the baent wedi cael eu hariannu gan grantiau community resettlement of long-term patients penodol, a fyddai awdurdodau lleol wedi of Hensol and other such places in the 1980s defnyddio’r arian a gawsant ar adsefydlu under a Conservative Government? Would gofal yn y gymuned cleifion hirdymor Hensol funding via the formula have provided money a mannau eraill o’r fath yn y 1980au dan in the right place? The answer to both Lywodraeth Geidwadol? A fyddai cyllid questions is ‘no’. Grants are very important drwy gyfrwng y fformiwla wedi darparu to Governments of whatever hue, wherever arian yn y lle cywir? Yr ateb i’r ddau they are. gwestiwn yw ‘na’. Mae grantiau yn bwysig iawn i Lywodraethau beth bynnag y bônt, lle

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bynnag y maent.

It is important that proportionate checks take Mae’n bwysig bod archwiliadau cymesur yn place. Remember that, for every grant that cael eu cynnal. Cofiwch, ar gyfer pob grant causes concern, there are hundreds making a sy’n achosi pryder, mae cannoedd sy’n difference to people’s lives the length and gwneud gwahaniaeth i fywydau pobl ar hyd a breadth of Wales. I heard Plas Madoc lled Cymru. Clywais sôn am Blas Madoc. mentioned. I can talk just about Swansea. I Gallaf ond siarad am Abertawe. Rwyf wedi have written an article on this and talked ysgrifennu erthygl ar hyn ac wedi siarad am y about the wonderful work being done by a gwaith gwych sy’n cael ei wneud gan nifer o number of Communities First groups in grwpiau Cymunedau yn Gyntaf yn Swansea—from helping people to reduce Abertawe—o helpu pobl i leihau eu biliau their gas and electricity bills to helping nwy a thrydan i helpu pobl i gael gwaith a people into employment and improving the gwella iechyd y bobl yn yr ardal. Mae’r rhain health of people in the area. These are really yn bethau pwysig iawn sy’n effeithio ar important things that affect people’s lives. fywydau pobl.

What would I do differently? Assuming that Beth y byddwn i yn ei wneud yn wahanol? A direct funding is not possible for all, I would thybio nad yw cyllid uniongyrchol yn bosibl i break the grants down into their three main bawb, byddwn yn rhannu’r grantiau yn recipients: voluntary organisations, local grwpiau o dri phrif derbynnydd: sefydliadau authorities and private companies. For a gwirfoddol, awdurdodau lleol a chwmnïau voluntary organisation that could not be preifat. Ar gyfer sefydliad gwirfoddol na ellid funded directly, I would look to fund it ei ariannu’n uniongyrchol, byddwn yn mynd through the Wales Council for Voluntary ati i’w ariannu drwy Gyngor Gweithredu Action rather than through intermediary Gwirfoddol Cymru yn hytrach na thrwy groups. Local authorities should be funded grwpiau cyfryngol. Dylai awdurdodau lleol directly, but the Welsh Local Government gael eu hariannu’n uniongyrchol, ond dylai Association should be given a more Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru gael supervisory role in dealing with this. Private rôl fwy goruchwyliol wrth ymdrin â hyn. companies’ grant funding should continue as Dylai cyllid grant cwmnïau preifat barhau fel it does now. Will there be problems in the y mae ar hyn o bryd. A fydd problemau yn y future? Yes. Will some grants go wrong? dyfodol? Bydd. A fydd rhai grantiau yn Yes. There is only one way to ensure that methu? Byddant. Dim ond un ffordd sydd o there is never a problem with grants in the sicrhau na fydd problem byth gyda grantiau future, and that is to stop giving them. There yn y dyfodol, a rhoi’r gorau i’w rhoi yw’r will be people who fill in forms who are ffordd honno. Bydd pobl sy’n llenwi crooked and there will be people who, ffurflenni sy’n twyllo ac ni fydd pobl eraill, through no fault of their own, for all sorts of heb unrhyw fai arnynt hwy eu hunain, am reasons, will not carry out the work they said bob math o resymau, yn gwneud y gwaith y they would do. Therefore, finally, I urge the gwnaethant ddweud y byddent yn ei wneud. Government to keep using grants as a way of Felly, i gloi, anogaf y Llywodraeth i barhau i driving policy for the benefit of people of ddefnyddio grantiau fel ffordd o lywio polisi Wales. er budd pobl Cymru.

The Minister for Finance and Leader of Y Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ the House (Jane Hutt): This has been a (Jane Hutt): Bu hon yn ddadl gadarn ac robust and constructive debate, and I am adeiladol, ac rwy’n falch o ymateb ar ran pleased to respond on behalf of the Welsh Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae’n rhoi cyfle imi Government. It gives me the opportunity to adrodd ar y camau gweithredu yr ydym wedi report on the actions that we have been taking bod yn eu cymryd i wella’r modd y rheolwn to improve our grants management and to grantiau ac i sicrhau’r Cynulliad ein bod yn assure the Assembly of our commitment to ymrwymedig i barhau i wneud gwelliannau continuing to make significant improvements sylweddol i’n proses o reoli grantiau ar draws to our grants management across the Welsh Llywodraeth Cymru, gan ymateb i adroddiad

80 28/11/2012

Government, responding to the valuable gwerthfawr Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru ac, yn report of the Wales Audit Office and, indeed, wir, broses graffu effeithiol ein Pwyllgor the effective scrutiny of our own Public Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus ein hunain. Accounts Committee.

In 2009, as a result of WAO reports, we Yn 2009, o ganlyniad i adroddiadau Swyddfa recognised that we needed to make Archwilio Cymru, cydnabuwyd gennym fod significant improvements. In 2010, we angen inni wneud gwelliannau sylweddol. Yn established a grants management project. The 2010, sefydlwyd prosiect rheoli grantiau. Prif principal aims of that project were: to nodau’r prosiect hwnnw oedd: cyflwyno introduce better processes, procedures and prosesau, gweithdrefnau ac adnoddau gwell i tools to support the appropriate award gefnogi’r gwaith o ddyfarnu, monitro a rheoli monitoring and management of grants; to grantiau; rhoi gwell gwybodaeth; gwella a deliver better information; to improve and chefnogi cynllunio, gweithredu a gwneud support planning, implementation and penderfyniadau ar lefel cynllun corfforaethol, decision making at corporate, departmental adrannol a grant; a darparu’r fframwaith and grant scheme level; and to provide that llywodraethu a rheoleiddio cyson hwnnw er consistent governance and regulatory mwyn rheoli adnoddau yn well a gochel rhag framework to better control resources and y camddefnydd o gronfeydd gan dderbynwyr guard against the misuse of funds by grant grant—mae Aelodau wedi cydnabod recipients—Members have recognised the pwysigrwydd hynny heddiw—i sefydlu importance of that today—to establish an fframwaith rheoli grantiau effeithlon ac efficient and effective grants management effeithiol. O ganlyniad, sefydlwyd canolfan framework. As a result, a single Welsh ragoriaeth gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer Government centre of excellence for advice, cyngor, cymorth ac arweiniad mewn support and guidance in relation to grant perthynas â chyllid grant. Mae’r ganolfan funding was established. That centre is key; it honno yn allweddol; mae’n hollbwysig. is vital. It works with grant teams across the Mae’n gweithio gyda thimau grant ym mhob Government to ensure that funding rhan o’r Llywodraeth i sicrhau bod rhaglenni programmes are delivered consistently, with ariannu yn cael eu darparu’n gyson, gyda’r the appropriate level of governance and lefel briodol o lywodraethu a rheoli. Mae control. It is also working to increase the hefyd yn gweithio i gynyddu lefel y level of reliable and effective financial and wybodaeth reoli ddibynadwy ac effeithiol i management information to inform decision lywio penderfyniadau, er mwyn sicrhau’r making, to enable the level of scrutiny and lefel o graffu a monitro y galwodd Jenny monitoring that Jenny Rathbone has called Rathbone amdani ac y cyfeiriodd Peter Black for and which Peter Black referred to, ati, gan ddarparu hefyd—mae hyn yn bwysig delivering also—this is important in terms of o ran bod yn sail i hyn—system TG grantiau the underpinning of this—a cost-effective, gosteffeithiol, wedi ei safoni, ar draws standardised grants IT system across the Llywodraeth Cymru. Welsh Government.

Therefore, in the two years since the project Felly, yn y ddwy flynedd ers i’r prosiect gael was initiated, significant progress has been ei roi ar waith, mae cynnydd sylweddol made to improve the quality of grants wedi’i wneud i wella ansawdd rheoli management. That introduction of consistent grantiau. Mae’r gwaith o gyflwyno prosesau processes and support for grant management cyson a chymorth ar gyfer timau rheoli teams has been essential and has improved grantiau wedi bod yn hanfodol ac wedi delivery. I will give you an example: over gwella’r ddarpariaeth. Rhoddaf enghraifft 400 grant schemes have been reviewed and ichi: adolygwyd dros 400 o gynlluniau grant best practice has been identified and reflected ac mae arfer gorau wedi cael ei nodi a’i in grant management standards and guidance. adlewyrchu mewn safonau a chanllawiau Where standards have fallen short of rheoli grantiau. Lle nad yw safonau wedi expectations, the centre has supported a bodloni’r disgwyliadau, mae’r ganolfan wedi programme of improvement. Standard grants cefnogi rhaglen o welliant. Bydd llythyrau

81 28/11/2012 award letters will be adopted for all grants dyfarnu grantiau safonol yn cael eu awarded from the beginning of the mabwysiadu ar gyfer pob grant a ddyfernir o forthcoming financial year. ddechrau’r flwyddyn ariannol nesaf.

As Ieuan Wyn Jones has said, there is a high Fel y dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones, gwneir use of grants in Wales. That is acknowledged defnydd uchel o grantiau yng Nghymru. in the Wales Audit Office report to the Public Cydnabyddir hynny yn adroddiad Swyddfa Accounts Committee. Grant giving has been Archwilio Cymru i’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon described by the third sector as ‘the Welsh Cyhoeddus. Mae rhoi grantiau wedi cael ei way’. Of course, there are concerns about ddisgrifio gan y trydydd sector fel ‘y ffordd alternatives, in terms of the procurement Gymreig’. Wrth gwrs, mae pryderon am route and commissioning, which can result in ddewisiadau eraill, o ran y llwybr caffael a long-standing local and national chomisiynu, a all arwain at sefydliadau lleol a organisations losing out and not being able to chenedlaethol hirsefydlog ar eu colled ac yn continue as the grant-funded body. We have methu â pharhau fel y corff a ariennir drwy to address these and work through them with grant. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r rhain a our partners in the third sector. gweithio drwyddynt gyda’n partneriaid yn y trydydd sector.

A very important feature of the ongoing work Nodwedd bwysig iawn ar y gwaith sy’n is strengthening our diligence work with our mynd rhagddo yw atgyfnerthu ein gwaith grant recipients. I initiated a due diligence diwydrwydd gyda’n derbynwyr grantiau. review of all of the grant recipient bodies Rhoddais adolygiad diwydrwydd dyladwy ar within my portfolio, and this approach is waith o’r holl gyrff sy’n derbyn grant yn fy being adopted across Government. I have mhortffolio, ac mae’r dull gweithredu hwn yn been impressed by the way in which grant cael ei fabwysiadu ar draws y Llywodraeth. recipients have responded, which goes back Mae’r ffordd y mae derbynwyr grantiau wedi to Mike Hedges’ point that many of these ymateb i hyn wedi creu argraff arnaf, ac mae organisations provide services on the ground hyn yn mynd yn ôl at bwynt Mike Hedges under a great deal of pressure, and that they sy’n sôn bod llawer o’r sefydliadau hyn yn are often also funded by other bodies such as darparu gwasanaethau ar lawr gwlad dan local government. Feedback from that lawer iawn o bwysau, a’u bod yn aml yn cael exercise was important. We also bring in eu hariannu gan gyrff eraill megis internal audit when we need to when due llywodraeth leol. Roedd adborth o’r ymarfer diligence is questioned. hwnnw yn bwysig iawn. Rydym hefyd yn cyflwyno archwiliad mewnol pan fo angen pan fydd amheuaeth ynghylch diwydrwydd dyladwy.

I assure Paul Davies and Peter Black that we Gallaf sicrhau Paul Davies a Peter Black ein welcome the Auditor General for Wales’s bod yn croesawu adroddiad 2011 Archwilydd report of 2011 on grants management in Cyffredinol Cymru ar reoli grantiau yng Wales. It identified 18 grant schemes that Nghymru. Nododd 18 cynllun grant yr were considered to have been poorly ystyriwyd eu bod wedi cael eu rheoli’n wael managed between 2005 and 2011. However, rhwng 2005 a 2011. Fodd bynnag, part 3 of that report reflected the important adlewyrchodd rhan 3 o’r adroddiad hwnnw y improvements by the Welsh Government, in gwelliannau pwysig gan Lywodraeth Cymru, particular, that are now in progress. yn benodol, sydd bellach yn mynd rhagddynt.

The Public Accounts Committee published Mae’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus wedi its interim report on grants management in cyhoeddi ei adroddiad interim ar reoli Wales, for which it held a number of grantiau yng Nghymru, y cynhaliodd nifer o evidence sessions. We accepted all of its sesiynau tystiolaeth ar ei gyfer. Rydym yn recommendations as a Government, and I derbyn ei holl argymhellion fel Llywodraeth, look forward to receiving any further ac edrychaf ymlaen at dderbyn unrhyw

82 28/11/2012 recommendations in the final report from the argymhellion pellach yn yr adroddiad Public Accounts Committee. terfynol gan y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus.

The Welsh Government’s improvement work Mae gwaith gwella Llywodraeth Cymru yn y in this field continues with urgency. maes hwn yn parhau ar fyrder. O ran yr Regarding the leadership that has been called arweinyddiaeth y gofynnwyd amdani yn y for in this Chamber, and in response to the Siambr hon, ac mewn ymateb i welliant 3 Welsh Liberal Democrats’ amendment 3, Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, mae there is a strong focus and emphasis on ffocws a phwyslais cryf ar ganlyniadau, gan outcomes, seeking to ensure that we secure geisio sicrhau ein bod yn cael gwerth am value for money for the grant funding that we arian am y cyllid grant a ddarparwn. Rydym provide. We recognise that entirely in terms yn cydnabod hynny’n llwyr o ran y of the outcomes that we see for our canlyniadau a welwn ar gyfer ein cymunedau communities from the funding that we o’r cyllid a ddarparwn, ac mae hynny ar provide, and that is across a whole range of draws ystod gyfan o gyllid a chymorth Government finance and funding support. ariannol y Llywodraeth.

Andrew R.T. Davies: You are a good way Andrew R.T. Davies: Mae cryn dipyn o’ch into your speech, Minister, but I have noticed araith wedi bod, Weinidog, ond rwyf wedi that you have not once mentioned AWEMA. sylwi nad ydych wedi sôn am AWEMA How can Members have confidence that, unwaith. Sut y gall Aelodau fod yn hyderus, given the various signalling throughout that o ystyried yr arwyddion amrywiol drwy debacle, the Welsh Government has learned gydol y llanastr, fod Llywodraeth Cymru lessons and will be more proactive to stop wedi dysgu gwersi ac y bydd yn fwy future debacles from happening to grant rhagweithiol i atal llanastr o’r fath rhag streaming? digwydd yn y dyfodol i ffrwd grantiau?

Jane Hutt: I will be coming on to that point Jane Hutt: Byddaf yn dod at y pwynt in a few minutes. hwnnw mewn ychydig funudau.

I am also happy to say that we are embracing Rwyf hefyd yn hapus i ddweud ein bod yn measures that enhance transparency croesawu mesurau sy’n gwella tryloywder associated with the spending of public sy’n gysylltiedig â gwario arian cyhoeddus. money. Accountability and transparency are Mae atebolrwydd a thryloywder yn vital principles and are at the heart of this egwyddorion hanfodol ac maent wrth wraidd Government. y Llywodraeth hon.

In response to the intervention by Andrew Mewn ymateb i ymyriad gan Andrew R.T. R.T. Davies, Members have drawn attention Davies, mae Aelodau wedi tynnu sylw at to the Wales Audit Office report that we as adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru y the Welsh Government commissioned on gwnaethom ni fel Llywodraeth Cymru ei AWEMA. In response to the points raised gomisiynu ar AWEMA. Mewn ymateb i’r this afternoon, I cannot do better than refer to pwyntiau a godwyd y prynhawn yma, ni allaf the written evidence to the Public Accounts wneud yn well na chyfeirio at y dystiolaeth Committee from the Permanent Secretary, ysgrifenedig i’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon prior to his forthcoming attendance at the Cyhoeddus gan yr Ysgrifennydd Parhaol, cyn committee. He said that the Wales Audit ei ymddangosiad nesaf yn y pwyllgor. Office published its report on the Welsh Dywedodd fod Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru Government’s relationship with AWEMA on wedi cyhoeddi ei hadroddiad ar gydberthynas 18 October and that the Welsh Government Llywodraeth Cymru ag AWEMA ar 18 co-operated fully with the Wales Audit Hydref a bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi Office throughout the course of its value for cydweithredu’n llawn â Swyddfa Archwilio money study and has welcomed the report, Cymru drwy gydol ei hastudiaeth gwerth am accepting all of the recommendations. The arian a’i bod wedi croesawu’r adroddiad, gan Permanent Secretary and principal dderbyn pob un o’r argymhellion. Dywedodd

83 28/11/2012 accounting offer said on 18 October that the yr Ysgrifennydd Parhaol a’r prif swyddog Welsh Government is already implementing cyfrifyddu ar 18 Hydref fod Llywodraeth the recommendations detailed in the WAO’s Cymru eisoes yn rhoi’r argymhellion a report as part of the grant management grybwyllwyd yn adroddiad Swyddfa project and other governance activities. Archwilio Cymru ar waith fel rhan o’r prosiect rheoli grantiau a gweithgareddau llywodraethu eraill.

In conclusion, we will oppose the I gloi, byddwn yn gwrthwynebu’r amendments to the debate, but we accept the gwelliannau i’r ddadl, ond rydym yn derbyn second point of the Welsh Conservatives’ ail bwynt y cynnig gan y Ceidwadwyr motion, which calls on the Welsh Cymreig, sy’n galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i Government to issue regular statements roi datganiadau rheolaidd yn amlinellu’r outlining actions taken to improve grants camau gweithredu a gymerir i wella’r broses management in Wales and to implement o reoli grantiau yng Nghymru ac i weithredu measures that enhance transparency mesurau sy’n gwella tryloywder sy’n associated with the spending of public gysylltiedig â gwario arian cyhoeddus. Mae’r money. These points are fully in accord with pwyntiau hyn yn unol â’r ganolfan ragoriaeth the grants centre of excellence and the grantiau a’r mesurau yr ydym wedi’u measures that we have taken. I will ensure cymryd. Byddaf yn sicrhau bod gwersi’n cael that lessons are learned from past experience. eu dysgu o brofiad y gorffennol. Mae Good progress is being made, but I, my cynnydd da yn cael ei wneud, ond yr wyf i, fy ministerial colleagues, and the Permanent nghyd-Weinidogion, a’r Ysgrifennydd Secretary, are determined that we will have a Parhaol, yn benderfynol o gael proses sy’n process that delivers effective value for sicrhau canlyniadau gwerth am arian money outcomes for the people of Wales. effeithiol i bobl Cymru.

Angela Burns: Well, yes, it was a robust Angela Burns: Wel, roedd yn sicr yn ddadl debate, but what an interesting debate, gadarn, ond yn ddadl ddiddorol, gan fod y because we have a complete deletion of truth gwirionedd wedi’i ddileu’n llwyr fan hyn. here. Let me read out point 1 of our motion Gadewch imi ddarllen pwynt 1 ein cynnig i for you: chi:

‘Regrets the long-standing failures of the ‘Yn gresynu wrth fethiannau hirdymor Welsh Government in relation to grants Llywodraeth Cymru mewn perthynas â rheoli management in Wales.’ grantiau yng Nghymru.’

4.15 p.m.

Jenny Rathbone raised a very interesting Cododd Jenny Rathbone bwynt diddorol point about scrutiny, and I entirely chime iawn am graffu, ac rwyf yn cyd-fynd â hynny with that; I am a bit of a scrutiny hawk yn llwyr; rwy’n cadw llygad barcud ar y myself. Earlier on today, we were in another broses graffu fy hun. Yn gynharach heddiw, place discussing a piece of legislation and roeddem mewn man arall yn trafod darn o talking about financial scrutiny. If you have a ddeddfwriaeth ac yn sôn am broses graffu Government that is supposed to be doing the ariannol. Os oes gennych Lywodraeth sydd i business, managing things, making things fod i wneud y gwaith, rheoli pethau, gwneud happen and developing outcomes but, no i bethau ddigwydd a datblygu canlyniadau matter how large the bunch of backbenchers ond, ni waeth pa mor fawr yw’r criw o trying, through committee work or here in aelodau meinciau cefn sy’n ceisio, drwy Plenary, to get the Government to change its waith pwyllgora neu yma yn y Cyfarfod course or take on board constructive Llawn, i gael y Llywodraeth i newid ei criticism—and that is not possible by virtue thrywydd neu ystyried beirniadaeth of amendment 1 from the Welsh adeiladol—ac nid yw hynny’n bosibl Government, which deletes the undeniable oherwydd gwelliant 1 gan Lywodraeth

84 28/11/2012 truth that, for the past decade, we have had a Cymru, sy’n dileu’r gwirionedd diymwad ein number of grants that have been totally bod ni, am y degawd diwethaf, wedi cael mismanaged—we are on a hiding to nothing. nifer o grantiau sydd wedi cael eu camreoli’n This is what we are asking for. I was llwyr—nid oes unrhyw obaith y gwnawn ni delighted to hear the Minister talk about the lwyddo. Dyma’r hyn rydym yn gofyn plans that she has and intends to implement. amdano. Roeddwn yn falch o glywed y However, to take things from the very basics, Gweinidog yn sôn am y cynlluniau sydd when you first create a policy, you then plan ganddi ac y mae’n bwriadu eu gweithredu. how you are going to develop and implement Fodd bynnag, er mwyn ystyried pethau o it, but, above all, you must monitor the bwynt sylfaenol iawn, pan fyddwch yn creu performance. polisi am y tro cyntaf, rydych wedyn yn cynllunio sut rydych yn mynd i’w ddatblygu a’i weithredu, ond, yn anad dim, rhaid ichi fonitro’r perfformiad.

Many times in the third Assembly, the Sawl gwaith yn y trydydd Cynulliad, Finance Committee—which, remember, is a gwelodd y Pwyllgor Cyllid—sydd, cofiwch, cross-party group—had before it examples of yn grŵp trawsbleidiol—enghreifftiau o cases where we could see that grants were not achosion lle y gallem weld nad oedd grantiau being managed properly or where it was hard yn cael eu rheoli’n briodol neu lle roedd yn to track outcomes. It is incredibly important anodd olrhain canlyniadau. Mae’n hynod that we do that. When my colleague, Paul bwysig ein bod yn gwneud hynny. Pan Davies, began this debate, he said very ddechreuodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Paul Davies, y clearly that he believes that the Welsh ddadl hon, dywedodd yn glir iawn ei fod yn Government cannot be responsible for every credu na all Llywodraeth Cymru fod yn penny spent. Of course it cannot, but it can gyfrifol am bob ceiniog a gaiff ei gwario. and should be responsible for the processes to Wrth gwrs na all, ond gall fod a dylai fod yn monitor that spend and, therefore, those gyfrifol am y prosesau i fonitro’r gwariant outcomes. It can be incredibly difficult. Suzy hwnnw ac, felly, y canlyniadau hynny. Gall Davies referred to a very circuitous route that fod yn eithriadol o anodd. Cyfeiriodd Suzy some money takes, coming from our pockets Davies at lwybr cwmpasog iawn y mae as Welsh taxpayers and going via so many rhywfaint o’r arian yn ei gymryd, sy’n dod organisations before it is funnelled back in. o’n pocedi ni fel trethdalwyr Cymreig ac yn Therefore, it is not easy, but that does not mynd drwy gymaint o sefydliadau cyn iddo mean that you should not do it. gael ei sianelu yn ôl i mewn. Felly nid yw’n hawdd, ond nid yw hynny’n golygu na ddylech ei wneud.

I was delighted to note that Peter Black Roeddwn wrth fy modd i weld bod Peter shared my shock at the denials implied by the Black yn rhannu fy syndod ynglŷn â’r gwadu deletion of amendment 1. Peter mentioned a awgrymwyd o ganlyniad i ddileu gwelliant organisations such as the Higher Education 1. Soniodd Peter am sefydliadau megis Funding Council for Wales, so it is not just Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru, felly small organisations that get this money, but nid dim ond sefydliadau bach sy’n cael yr big organisations. I can remember when I arian hwn, ond sefydliadau mawr. Pan oedd held the shadow environment portfolio portffolio amgylchedd yr wrthblaid gennyf having enormous difficulty in trying to rwy’n cofio’r trafferth mawr a gefais yn understand, find and get the Government to ceisio deall, canfod a chael y Llywodraeth i find exactly where the Countryside Council nodi’n union ble roedd Cyngor Cefn Gwlad for Wales spent its grant. With organisations Cymru yn gwario ei grant. Gyda sefydliadau big and small, this does not imply mawr a bach, nid yw hyn yn awgrymu wrongdoing but a lack of management unrhyw gamwedd ond diffyg proses reoli, a process, and that is what we must eradicate. dyna’r hyn y mae’n rhaid inni ei ddileu. That is what the Welsh Government needs to Dyna’r hyn y mae angen i Lywodraeth eradicate. You cannot change something if Cymru ei ddileu. Ni allwch newid rhywbeth

85 28/11/2012 you do not admit that it is wrong. The os nad ydych yn cyfaddef ei fod yn anghywir. deletion of point 1 of the original motion Mae dileu pwynt 1 yn y cynnig gwreiddiol yn shows that it totally refuses to admit that it is dangos ei bod yn gwrthod cyfaddef ei bod yn wrong. anghywir mewn unrhyw ffordd.

Why is it so important that we get the whole Pam ei bod mor bwysig ein bod yn cael mater issue of grant spend right? We just had a very cyfan gwariant ar grantiau yn iawn? Rydym poignant debate about mental health issues newydd gael dadl ingol iawn ar faterion here in Wales. You can expand that. Mental iechyd meddwl yma yng Nghymru. Gallwch health issues need support and need to be ehangu ar hynny. Mae angen cymorth ar promoted; awareness needs to be raised. If faterion iechyd meddwl ac mae angen eu we saved some of the moneys that we waste hyrwyddo; mae angen codi ymwybyddiaeth. by not following up grants properly, we could Pe baem yn arbed peth o’r arian a wastraffwn spend it on mental health. drwy beidio â gwneud gwaith dilynol yn briodol ar grantiau, gallem ei wario ar iechyd meddwl.

Darren Millar: Do you agree that it is a Darren Millar: A ydych yn cytuno ei bod yn matter of deep regret that, although the Welsh destun gofid mawr, er bod Llywodraeth Government has protected and ring-fenced Cymru wedi diogelu a neilltuo gwariant ar mental health spending, it has no way to iechyd meddwl, nad oes dim modd iddi monitor whether that is actually being fonitro a yw hynny mewn gwirionedd yn cael delivered? ei ddarparu?

Angela Burns: I do, Darren, because I fear Angela Burns: Ydw, Darren, oherwydd that it will lead to the inappropriate use of ofnaf y bydd yn arwain at ddefnydd money or people just not knowing what is amhriodol o arian neu na fydd pobl yn going on. It is very easy to lose control of gwybod beth sy’n digwydd. Mae’n hawdd money, whether you are running a business iawn colli rheolaeth ar arian, p’un a ydych yn or a Government. rhedeg busnes neu Lywodraeth.

This morning, I was talking to the Minister Y bore yma, roeddwn yn siarad â’r for Education and Skills in the Children and Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau yn y Pwyllgor Young People Committee. We were looking Plant a Phobl Ifanc. Roeddem yn edrych ar at legislation, and the Welsh Conservatives ddeddfwriaeth, ac roedd y Ceidwadwyr were raising the concern that there is not Cymreig yn codi’r pryder nad oes digon o enough money for school-based counselling. arian ar gyfer cwnsela mewn ysgolion. Stop wasting it on grants and you could pay Rhowch y gorau i’w wastraffu ar grantiau a for school-based counselling. We could gallech dalu am gwnsela mewn ysgolion. remove asbestos from our schools and Gallem gael gwared ag asbestos o’n hospitals, an issue that Nick Ramsay raised hysgolion a’n hysbytai, problem a gododd yesterday. We could mitigate the shortfall in Nick Ramsay ddoe. Gallem liniaru’r diffyg NHS funding. Ieuan Wyn Jones talked about yng nghyllid y GIG. Siaradodd Ieuan Wyn mentoring schemes and the invest-to-save Jones am gynlluniau mentora a’r rhaglen programme. If we stopped the leakage from buddsoddi-i-arbed. Pe baem yn atal arian grants that are not tracked or outcome- rhag cael ei wastraffu ar grantiau nad ydynt focused, that money could be spent on these yn cael eu holrhain neu nad ydynt yn kinds of projects. It is really important that canolbwyntio ar ganlyniadau, gallai’r arian we do this. hwnnw gael ei wario ar y mathau hyn o brosiectau. Mae’n wirioneddol bwysig ein bod yn gwneud hynny.

One of the overall sadnesses is that we have Un tristwch cyffredinol yw ein bod wedi cael had this debate and, I suspect, we will have it y ddadl hon ac, rwy’n amau, y cawn y ddadl again in six months’ time. Minister, I heard eto ymhen chwe mis. Weinidog, clywais yn

86 28/11/2012 clearly what you said, and we will support glir yr hyn a ddywedasoch, a byddwn yn eich you in any changes that you can make to the cefnogi mewn unrhyw newidiadau a wnewch way in which the grant culture in Wales i’r ffordd y mae’r diwylliant grantiau yn works and to track the value for every single gweithio yng Nghymru ac i olrhain y gwerth pound. We talk about value for the Welsh am bob punt. Rydym yn sôn am werth am y pound, do we not? Actually, it is really bunt yng Nghymru, onid ydym? Mewn simple. It is your money, it is my money, it is gwirionedd, mae’n syml. Eich arian chi our money, and it is the public’s money. We ydyw, fy arian i ydyw, ein harian ni ydyw ac all need to know that we can extract the arian cyhoeddus ydyw. Mae angen inni gyd absolute top value. We will look to see how wybod y gallwn gael y gwerth gorau posibl. this comes out, and we will return to this. Byddwn yn edrych i weld sut mae hyn yn Sadly, we turned to this topic in the third datblygu, a byddwn yn dychwelyd ato. Yn Assembly and it would be nice to get to stop anffodus, gwnaethom drafod y pwnc hwn yn talking about it. y trydydd Cynulliad a byddai’n braf rhoi’r gorau i siarad am y peth.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar proposal is to agree the motion without y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A oes unrhyw amendment. Does any Member object? I see Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod that there is objection. Therefore, I defer gwrthwynebiad. Felly, rwyf yn gohirio’r voting on this item until voting time. bleidlais ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio. Voting deferred until voting time.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Debate

Taliadau Uniongyrchol mewn Gofal Cymdeithasol Direct Payments in Social Care

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Rwyf wedi dethol selected amendments 1, 2, 3 and 7 in the gwelliannau 1, 2, 3 a 7 yn enw Jocelyn name of Jocelyn Davies, amendments 4 and 5 Davies, gwelliannau 4 a 5 yn enw Jane Hutt, in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendment 6 a gwelliant 6 yn enw Aled Roberts. in the name of Aled Roberts.

Cynnig NDM5106 William Graham Motion NDM5106 William Graham

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn nodi bod: 1. Notes that: a) nifer y bobl anabl sy’n defnyddio Taliadau a) the number of disabled people using Uniongyrchol i drefnu eu gofal cymdeithasol Direct Payments to organise their social care yng Nghymru yn isel o’i chymharu â in Wales is low compared to other nations of gwledydd eraill y DU; the UK; b) diffyg cefnogaeth a gwybodaeth ar gael ar b) there is currently a lack of support and hyn o bryd i ddefnyddwyr gwasanaeth information available to service users over ynghylch yr ystod o ddewisiadau sydd ar gael the range of options available to them; and iddynt; ac

87 28/11/2012

c) nid oes digon o ddewis o Daliadau c) there is not enough choice and control of Uniongyrchol mewn gwasanaethau Direct Payments in social services in Wales. cymdeithasol yng Nghymru na rheolaeth drostynt.

2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i: 2. Calls for the Welsh Government to: a) defnyddio’r Bil Gwasanaethau a) use the Social Services and Wellbeing Bill Cymdeithasol a Llesiant i adlewyrchu model to reflect the Scottish model of self-directed yr Alban o gymorth hunangyfeiriedig, i support, to ensure that social care users can sicrhau bod defnyddwyr gofal cymdeithasol control their care and support packages yn gallu rheoli eu pecynnau gofal a chymorth through direct payments and third-party drwy daliadau uniongyrchol a chyfrifon a managed accounts; reolir gan drydydd partïon; b) gweithio i sefydlu cofrestr genedlaethol b) work to establish a voluntary national wirfoddol o gynorthwywyr personol i sicrhau register of personal assistants to ensure they bod ganddynt y gefnogaeth a’r hyfforddiant have the appropriate support and training to priodol i’w harfogi â’r sgiliau i ymdrin ag equip them with the skills to deal with a ystod o gyflyrau; ac range of conditions; and c) annog cynorthwywyr personol i ddarparu c) encourage personal assistants to provide a rhwydwaith o gefnogaeth i ddefnyddwyr network of support for service users in the gwasanaeth os bydd amgylchiadau’n codi event of unforeseen circumstances. nad oedd modd eu rhagweld.

Mark Isherwood: I move the motion. Mark Isherwood: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

The detail of my proposal for a community Caiff manylion fy nghynnig ar gyfer Bil care direct payments Bill is to be left for taliadau uniongyrchol gofal cymunedol eu another day. While numerous Welsh gadael ar gyfer diwrnod arall. Er bod Government strategies and policy statements strategaethau a datganiadau polisi niferus gan have highlighted the need for individuals to Lywodraeth Cymru wedi tynnu sylw at yr have a greater say in the running of their own angen i unigolion gael mwy o lais yn y social services, progress has been slow in gwaith o redeg eu gwasanaethau promoting direct payments across Wales. cymdeithasol eu hunain, cynnydd araf a Currently, only 5% of adults in Wales wnaed mewn perthynas â hyrwyddo taliadau receiving community-based social services uniongyrchol ledled Cymru. Ar hyn o bryd, are in receipt of direct payments. Many dim ond 5% o oedolion yng Nghymru sy’n people choose not to use direct payments cael gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn y owing to concerns about the level of support gymuned, sy’n cael taliadau uniongyrchol. that they would continue to receive from the Mae llawer o bobl yn dewis peidio â local authority. The Welsh Government’s defnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol oherwydd consultation document on the social services pryderon ynghylch lefel y cymorth y byddent and wellbeing (Wales) Bill states that: yn parhau i’w gael gan yr awdurdod lleol. Mae dogfen ymgynghori Llywodraeth Cymru ar Fil gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a lles (Cymru) yn datgan:

‘In 2011/12 there were around 3,000 users of Yn 2011/12 roedd tua 3,000 o ddefnyddwyr Direct Payments in Wales. This still, Taliadau Uniongyrchol yng Nghymru. Fodd however, represents only a relatively small bynnag, dim ond cyfran gymharol fach yw proportion of the total social services hyn o’r holl wasanaethau cymdeithasol a provision that supports around 150,000 ddarperir i tua 150,000 o bobl bob blwyddyn.

88 28/11/2012 people each year.’

Therefore, only 2% of the eligible cohort is in Felly, dim ond 2% o’r garfan sy’n gymwys receipt of direct payments—fewer than the sy’n cael taliadau uniongyrchol—llai na’r number using direct payments in the English nifer sy’n defnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol county of Cheshire alone. People are yn Sir Gaer yn Lloegr yn unig. Mae pobl yn frequently dissuaded by direct payments aml yn gyndyn o gael taliadau uniongyrchol owing to the level of paperwork and the oherwydd lefel y gwaith papur a’r cyfrifoldeb responsibility of employing their own o gyflogi eu cynorthwyydd neu asiantaeth eu assistant or agency. A members’ survey hunain. Canfu arolwg o aelodau ledled across England and Wales by deafblind Cymru a Lloegr gan elusen Sense i bobl charity Sense found that 31% of people byddar-ddall nad oedd 31% o’r bobl a surveyed did not even know what direct holwyd hyd yn oed yn gwybod beth oedd payments were. This lack of knowledge is a taliadau uniongyrchol. Mae’r diffyg cause for concern, requiring more action by gwybodaeth hwn yn achos pryder, ac mae the Welsh Government to ensure that angen mwy o weithredu gan Lywodraeth individuals are fully aware of the options Cymru i sicrhau bod unigolion yn gwbl available to them. ymwybodol o’r opsiynau sydd ar gael iddynt.

Today’s motion was drafted with the help of Drafftiwyd cynnig heddiw gyda chymorth Multiple Sclerosis Society Cymru, and my Multiple Sclerosis Society Cymru, ac yn fy speech comprises what charities representing araith, cynnwys yr hyn y mae elusennau sy’n disabled people, not any politicians, have cynrychioli pobl anabl, nid unrhyw asked me to say. I spoke some years ago at wleidyddion, wedi gofyn i mi ei ddweud a the Disability Wales conference, which wnaf. Siaradais rai blynyddoedd yn ôl yng launched the Independent Living campaign nghynhadledd Anabledd Cymru, a lansiodd and, two weeks ago, I hosted the MS Society ymgyrch Byw’n Annibynnol a, bythefnos yn Cymru Planned By Me, Not For Me event in ôl, cynhaliais ddigwyddiad Planned By Me, the Pierhead building, where speakers Not For Me MS Society Cymru yn adeilad y included the Deputy Minister for social Pierhead, lle'r oedd y siaradwyr yn cynnwys services, representatives from all parties and y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau the project manager of self-directed support Cymdeithasol, cynrychiolwyr o bob plaid a for NHS Lothian in Scotland, which rheolwr prosiect cymorth hunangyfeiriedig ar undertook early testing for self-directed gyfer GIG Lothian yn yr Alban, a gynhaliodd support on behalf of both the former Labour brofion cynnar ar gyfer cymorth and current Scottish nationalist Governments. hunangyfeiriedig ar ran y Llywodraeth Lafur I will say more about that later. gynt a Llywodraeth bresennol cenedlaetholwyr yr Alban. Dywedaf fwy am hynny yn nes ymlaen.

Many disabled people in Wales do not Ni chaiff llawer o bobl anabl yng Nghymru currently have much of a choice. People do lawer o ddewis ar hyn o bryd. Nid yw pobl not want to be dictated to by local authorities am gael eu rheoli gan awdurdodau lleol neu or social services. Self-directed support, or wasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae a wnelo citizen-directed support, is about cymorth hunangyfeiriedig, neu gymorth a personalisation in care. It is about choice and gyfarwyddir gan ddinasyddion, â phersonoli independent living for people who do not mewn gofal. Mae a wnelo â dewis a byw’n want to be seen as passive recipients of annibynnol i bobl nad ydynt am gael eu blanket care. Direct payments give gweld fel eu bod yn derbyn gofal cyffredinol responsibility for employing staff and mewn modd goddefol. Mae taliadau commissioning services to the individual. uniongyrchol yn rhoi cyfrifoldeb am gyflogi staff a chomisiynu gwasanaethau i’r unigolyn.

At this point, let me seek to lay to rest, Ar y pwynt hwn, hoffwn roi taw, unwaith ac

89 28/11/2012 hopefully once and for all, the misinformed am byth gobeithio, ar yr hawliadau claims that proposals being made by disabled camarweiniol y bydd cynigion a wneir gan people’s charities will require people to have elusennau pobl anabl yn ei gwneud yn direct payments. This is not, and never has ofynnol i bobl gael taliadau uniongyrchol. been, the case. Direct payments are not Nid dyna’r achos, nawr nac yn y gorffennol. appropriate for all disabled people. Directly Nid yw taliadau uniongyrchol yn briodol i funded social care alongside direct payments bob person anabl. Mae’n rhaid cynnal gofal must be maintained. We will, therefore, be cymdeithasol a ariennir yn uniongyrchol ochr supporting amendments 1, 3 and 6. yn ochr â thaliadau uniongyrchol. Byddwn, felly, yn cefnogi gwelliannau 1, 3 a 6.

While many would benefit from direct Er y byddai llawer yn elwa o gael taliadau payments, many would not want this uniongyrchol, ni fyddai llawer am gael y freedom, and must be allowed to choose to rhyddid hwn, a rhaid caniatáu iddynt ddewis receive services planned by their local cael gwasanaethau a gynlluniwyd gan eu authority. Direct payments are about giving hawdurdod lleol. Mae a wnelo taliadau people control to decide how their needs will uniongyrchol â rhoi rheolaeth i bobl i be met, by whom and at what time. However, benderfynu sut y diwellir eu hanghenion, gan disabled adults are concerned that, if they bwy a phryd. Fodd bynnag, mae oedolion choose to use direct payments, they will not anabl yn poeni, os byddant yn dewis receive advice and support from local defnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol, na fyddant authorities. Local authorities have a legal yn cael cyngor a chymorth gan awdurdodau obligation to offer direct payments, but lleol. Mae gan awdurdodau lleol ddyletswydd should therefore actively support individuals gyfreithiol i gynnig taliadau uniongyrchol, to use them. We need a consistent level of ond felly dylent roi cymorth gweithredol i support across the 22 local authorities so that unigolion i’w defnyddio. Mae angen lefel individuals do not feel like they are on their gyson o gymorth ar draws y 22 awdurdod own. That means developing the centres for lleol fel nad yw unigolion yn teimlo eu bod ar independent living model in Wales by eu pen eu hunain. Mae hynny’n golygu working with local authorities and the third datblygu canolfannau ar gyfer model byw’n sector. It means delivering better access to annibynnol yng Nghymru drwy weithio direct payments and making personal care gydag awdurdodau lleol a’r trydydd sector. budgets available to all who wish to have the Mae’n golygu sicrhau bod taliadau power to shape their own care, enabling them uniongyrchol ar gael yn fwy eang a bod to choose services and care providers that suit cyllidebau gofal personol ar gael i bawb sy’n their particular needs. We must dymuno cael y pŵer i lunio eu gofal eu hunain, gan eu galluogi i ddewis gwasanaethau a darparwyr gofal sy’n addas ar gyfer eu hanghenion penodol. Mae’n rhaid inni

‘ensure disabled people are provided with sicrhau bod pobl anabl yn cael gwybodaeth a information and advice concerning their chyngor am eu hawliau, a bod gwasanaethau entitlements, and that advisory services are cynghori yn cael eu paratoi i helpu pobl anabl equipped to assist disabled people in i lywio’r ... system o asesiadau gallu i navigating the…system of work capability weithio. assessments.’

If that sounds familiar, it is because it comes Os yw hynny’n swnio’n gyfarwydd, mae from amendment 7 to the motion. Work hynny am ei fod yn dod o welliant 7 i’r capability assessments were introduced, in cynnig. Mewn gwirionedd, cyflwynwyd fact, by the UK Labour Government in 2008, asesiadau gallu i weithio gan Lywodraeth and we welcome the third independent Lafur y DU yn 2008, ac rydym yn croesawu’r review into them carried out by Professor trydydd adolygiad annibynnol arnynt a Harrington at the request of the current UK gynhaliwyd gan yr Athro Harrington ar gais

90 28/11/2012

Government. Llywodraeth bresennol y DU.

Only last Friday, speaking at the north Wales Dim ond ddydd Gwener diwethaf, pan Disability Resource Centre annual general oeddwn yn siarad yng nghyfarfod cyffredinol meeting, I referred to my recent meeting with blynyddol Canolfan Adnoddau Anabledd y the Royal National Institute of Blind People gogledd, cyfeiriais at fy nghyfarfod diweddar to discuss its specialist welfare rights and gyda Sefydliad Cenedlaethol Brenhinol Pobl signposting service in north Wales. It is vital Ddall i drafod ei hawliau lles arbenigol a that specialist welfare support be available gwasanaeth cyfeirio yn y gogledd. Mae’n for disabled and sensory-impaired people, hanfodol bod cymorth lles arbenigol ar gael i and we therefore look forward to the outcome bobl anabl a phobl â nam ar eu synhwyrau, ac of the Minister for Local Government and felly edrychwn ymlaen at ganlyniad Communities’s review of advice services in adolygiad y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Wales. We therefore support amendment 7. Chymunedau o wasanaethau cynghori yng Nghymru. Rydym felly’n cefnogi gwelliant 7.

Unlike direct payments, which can be used Yn wahanol i daliadau uniongyrchol, y gellir only to purchase care or employ a personal ond eu defnyddio i brynu gofal neu gyflogi assistant, a personal budget allows cynorthwyydd personol, mae cyllideb individuals to purchase equipment or other bersonol yn galluogi unigolion i brynu services to meet their needs, offering them cyfarpar neu wasanaethau eraill i ddiwallu eu maximum flexibility. Personal budgets have hanghenion, gan gynnig yr hyblygrwydd been rolled out in England since 2008 under mwyaf posibl iddynt. Cyflwynwyd Labour, with a target of providing every cyllidebau personol yn Lloegr ers 2008 o dan council-funded user of community-based Lafur, gyda tharged o sicrhau bod gan bob support with one by 2012. However, personal defnyddiwr cymorth yn y gymuned a ariennir budgets have not been introduced in Wales. gan y cyngor gyllideb erbyn 2012. Fodd As MS Society Cymru states, bynnag, nid yw cyllidebau personol wedi cael eu cyflwyno yng Nghymru. Fel y noda MS Society Cymru,

‘Local authorities are currently required to Rhaid i awdurdodau lleol ar hyn o bryd offer Direct Payments as one option for gynnig Taliadau Uniongyrchol fel un opsiwn social care, but it is limited in its current form ar gyfer gofal cymdeithasol, ond mae’n as it does not offer the freedom that Personal gyfyngedig yn ei ffurf bresennol gan nad Budgets in self-directed support could do.’ yw’n cynnig y rhyddid y gallai Cyllidebau Personol mewn cymorth hunangyfeiriedig ei wneud.’

Thanks to Labour legislation in England and Diolch i ddeddfwriaeth Lafur yn Lloegr a regulations introduced under a Labour First rheoliadau a gyflwynwyd o dan Brif Minister in Scotland, health and social Weinidog Llafur yn yr Alban, gellir cronni services direct payments there can be pooled, taliadau uniongyrchol iechyd a gwasanaethau but that does not apply in Wales. This must cymdeithasol yno, ond nid yw hynny’n be addressed. Care agencies can act as gymwys yng Nghymru. Rhaid mynd i’r afael intermediary budget holders, allowing direct â hyn. Gall asiantaethau ofal weithredu fel payment users to choose their care and carers deiliaid cyllideb gyfryngol, gan ganiatáu i and to exert greater purchasing power. ddefnyddwyr taliadau uniongyrchol ddewis However, there is concern that there is no eu gofal a’u gofalwyr ac i arfer mwy o bŵer comeback if a care agency drops a client, prynu. Fodd bynnag, mae pryder nad oes and, effectively, they are passed back to unrhyw ffordd yn ôl os yw asiantaeth gofal social services to deal with. That requires yn gollwng cleient, ac, i bob pwrpas, cânt eu attention. Care co-operatives offer one trosglwyddo yn ôl i’r gwasanaethau solution to this, which I know is supported by cymdeithasol ddelio â nhw. Mae hynny’n

91 28/11/2012 a number of Labour Members here. The UK gofyn am sylw. Mae cydweithfeydd gofal yn coalition Government has also made a cynnig un ateb i hyn, y gwn fod nifer o commitment to support the creation and Aelodau Llafur yn ei gefnogi yma. Mae expansion of mutuals, co-operatives, charities Llywodraeth glymblaid y DU hefyd wedi and social enterprises, and to enable those gwneud ymrwymiad i gefnogi’r broses o greu groups to have much greater involvement in ac ehangu cwmnïau cydfuddiannol, cwmnïau the running of public services. As Co- cydweithredol, elusennau a mentrau operatives and Mutuals Wales says, cymdeithasol, ac i alluogi’r grwpiau hynny i ymwneud llawer mwy â gwaith o redeg gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Fel y dywed Cwmnïau Cydweithredol a Chydfuddiannol Cymru,

‘There is growing political interest in how Mae diddordeb gwleidyddol cynyddol yn y co-operatives and mutuals can deliver modd y gall cwmnïau cydweithredol a services currently within the remit of public chydfuddiannol ddarparu gwasanaethau o sector provision.’ fewn cylch gorchwyl darpariaeth y sector cyhoeddus ar hyn o bryd.

They offer an alternative to local authority or Maent yn cynnig dewis amgen i awdurdod state provision. They also lleol neu ddarpariaeth y wladwriaeth. Maent hefyd yn

‘offer a way for users and providers to own cynnig ffordd i ddefnyddwyr a darparwyr fod and run their own care services.’ yn berchen ar eu gwasanaethau gofal eu hunain a’u rhedeg.

However, currently, there is little co- Fodd bynnag, ar hyn o bryd, nid oes llawer o operative social care activity in Wales. weithgarwch gofal cymdeithasol cydweithredol yng Nghymru.

Progressive Co-operators in Wales urges the Mae Cydweithredwyr Blaengar Cymru yn development of a Welsh model of self- annog y gwaith o ddatblygu model Cymreig directed support, incorporating co-operative o gymorth hunangyfeiriedig, sy’n cynnwys models of organisation in which direct modelau trefniadaeth cydweithredol lle gall payment holders can exert greater purchaser deiliaid taliadau uniongyrchol arfer mwy o power for the purposes of obtaining bŵer prynu at ddibenion cael cymorth administrative and other support and for gweinyddol a chymorth arall ac er mwyn shaping the pattern of local services. After llunio patrwm o wasanaethau lleol. Wedi’r all, in Italy, there are now more than 3,000 cwbl, yn yr Eidal, mae mwy na 3,000 o social care co-operatives, employing nearly gwmnïau cydweithredol gofal cymdeithasol 60,000 people, many of whom have bellach, sy’n cyflogi bron i 60,000 o bobl, y disabilities or were formerly marginalised mae gan lawer ohonynt anableddau neu yr from mainstream society. Surely that is oeddent yn arfer bod wedi’u gwthio i ymylon something that we want for Wales. cymdeithas brif ffrwd. Yn sicr mae hynny’n rhywbeth yr ydym am ei gael i Gymru.

4.30 p.m.

Running alongside care agencies, disabled Mae elusennau pobl anabl, gan redeg ochr yn people’s charities have called for the ochr ag asiantaethau gofal, wedi galw am establishment of a voluntary national register sefydlu cofrestr genedlaethol wirfoddol o of personal assistants to ensure appropriate gynorthwywyr personol i sicrhau cefnogaeth support and training, and for personal a hyfforddiant priodol, ac am gynorthwywyr assistants to provide a network of support for personol i ddarparu rhwydwaith o gymorth ar

92 28/11/2012 service users in the event of unforeseen gyfer defnyddwyr gwasanaethau os bydd circumstances. We therefore ask Labour to amgylchiadau annisgwyl. Rydym felly yn listen to them and withdraw amendment 5. gofyn i Lafur wrando arnynt a thynnu gwelliant 5 yn ôl.

We also call on Labour to withdraw Rydym hefyd yn galw ar Lafur i dynnu amendment 4, deleting the call by disabled gwelliant 4 yn ôl, gan ddileu'r galw gan people’s charities to use the social services elusennau pobl anabl i ddefnyddio Bil and well-being (Wales) Bill to reflect the gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a lles (Cymru) i Scottish model of self-directed support— adlewyrchu model yr Alban o gymorth introduced originally under Labour—to hunangyfeiriedig—a gyflwynwyd yn ensure that social care users can control their wreiddiol dan Lafur—i sicrhau y gall care and support packages through direct defnyddwyr gofal cymdeithasol reoli eu payments and third-party managed accounts. pecynnau gofal a chymorth drwy daliadau Scotland’s Social Care (Self-directed uniongyrchol a chyfrifon a reolir gan drydydd Support) (Scotland) Bill places a requirement parti. Mae Bil Gofal Cymdeithasol (Cymorth on local authorities to offer individuals four Hunangyfeiriedig) (Yr Alban) yn gofyn i choices on how they can obtain social care: awdurdodau lleol gynnig pedwar dewis i the person has direct payments; the person unigolion ar sut y gallant gael gafael ar ofal directs the available support; the local cymdeithasol: mae’r unigolyn yn cael authority arranges the support; or there is a taliadau uniongyrchol; mae’r unigolyn yn mix of all three. There is also a requirement rheoli’r cymorth sydd ar gael; mae’r to point people towards available advice and awdurdod lleol yn trefnu’r cymorth; neu support. If it rejects this, the Welsh gymysgedd o’r tri. Mae gofyniad hefyd i Government must account to people in gyfeirio pobl at y cyngor a’r cymorth sydd ar receipt of care support across Wales. As the gael. Os bydd yn gwrthod hyn, rhaid i minutes from this month’s meeting of the Lywodraeth Cymru roi cyfrif i bobl sy’n cross-party group on muscular dystrophy in derbyn cymorth gofal ledled Cymru. Fel y the Scottish Parliament state, usage of direct noda cofnodion cyfarfod y mis hwn o’r grŵp payments to further independence has made a trawsbleidiol ar nychdod cyhyrol yn Senedd positive impact overall after initial resistance. yr Alban, mae’r defnydd o daliadau Let us overcome the initial resistance here. uniongyrchol i wella annibyniaeth wedi cael effaith gadarnhaol gyffredinol ar ôl gwrthwynebiad cychwynnol. Gadewch inni oresgyn y gwrthwynebiad cychwynnol hwn.

We reject amendment 2, which confuses this Rydym yn gwrthod gwelliant 2, sy’n drysu’r devolved motion with UK benefit reform. cynnig datganoledig hwn gyda’r broses o The disability living allowance is being ddiwygio budd-daliadau yn y DU. Mae’r replaced by personal independent payments lwfans byw i’r anabl yn cael ei ddisodli gan for those who require the most assistance to daliadau annibynnol personol i’r rheini sydd lead independent lives, not by direct angen y cymorth mwyaf i fyw bywydau payments. It is a different issue. I will leave annibynnol, nid drwy daliadau uniongyrchol. the last word to Parkinson’s UK, Wales, Mae’n fater gwahanol. Gadawaf y gair olaf i which states that everyone, Parkinson’s UK, Cymru, sy’n dweud,

‘should have the power to exercise choice dylai pawb gael y pŵer i arfer dewis a and control over their care and support rheolaeth dros eu hanghenion gofal a needs’. chymorth.

I commend the motion to Members. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig i’r Aelodau.

Gwelliant 1—Jocelyn Davies Amendment 1—Jocelyn Davies

Cynnwys pwynt newydd ar ôl pwynt 1 ac Insert as new point after point 1 and

93 28/11/2012 ailrifo yn unol â hynny: renumber accordingly:

‘Yn cydnabod nad yw Taliadau Uniongyrchol ‘Recognises that Direct Payments are not yn briodol ar gyfer pob person anabl.’ appropriate for all disabled people.’

Gwelliant 2—Jocelyn Davies Amendment 2—Jocelyn Davies

Cynnwys pwynt newydd ar ôl pwynt 1 ac Insert as new point after point 1 and ailrifo yn unol â hynny: renumber accordingly:

‘Yn cydnabod na fyddai rhagor o ddefnydd o ‘Recognises that more use of Direct Daliadau Unigol yn digolledu pobl anabl am Payments would not compensate disabled golli’r lwfans byw i’r anabl.’ people for the loss of disability living allowance.’

Gwelliant 3—Jocelyn Davies Amendment 3—Jocelyn Davies

Cynnwys is-bwynt 2a) newydd ac ailrifo yn Insert as new sub-point 2a) and renumber unol â hynny: accordingly:

‘cynnal gofal cymdeithasol a gyllidir yn ‘maintain directly funded social care uniongyrchol ochr yn ochr â Thaliadau alongside Direct Payments;’ Uniongyrchol;’

Gwelliant 7—Jocelyn Davies Amendment 7—Jocelyn Davies

Ychwanegu fel is-bwynt newydd ar ddiwedd Add as new sub-point at end of point 2: pwynt 2:

‘sicrhau bod pobl anabl yn cael gwybodaeth ‘ensure disabled people are provided with a chyngor am eu hawliau, a bod information and advice concerning their gwasanaethau cynghori’n gymwys i entitlements, and that advisory services are gynorthwyo pobl anabl i lywio eu ffordd drwy equipped to assist disabled people in system annheg a diffygiol yr asesiadau gallu i navigating the unfair and flawed system of weithio.’ work capability assessments.’

Leanne Wood: I move amendments 1, 2, 3 Leanne Wood: Cynigiaf welliannau 1, 2, 3 a and 7 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. 7 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

Direct payments can provide excellent Gall taliadau uniongyrchol roi cymorth support to help people live independently. ardderchog er mwyn helpu pobl i fyw’n They allow for greater choice and control annibynnol. Maent yn caniatáu mwy o over the support that is received. Direct ddewis a rheolaeth dros y cymorth a geir. payments can mean that disabled people can Gall taliadau uniongyrchol olygu y gall pobl have flexibility in their care provision, and anabl gael darpariaeth gofal hyblyg, a gallant they can empower people. However, just as rymuso pobl. Fodd bynnag, yn union fel nad the previous institutional form of decision oedd y ffurf sefydliadol flaenorol o wneud making was not appropriate for everybody, penderfyniadau yn briodol i bawb, nid yw’r neither is universal support for direct cymorth cyffredinol ar gyfer taliadau payments. As the Demos report ‘Tailor uniongyrchol chwaith. Fel y nodir yn glir yn Made’ makes clear, there are limitations to adroddiad Demos ‘Tailor Made’, mae the use of personal budgets. That is why our cyfyngiadau ar y defnydd o gyllidebau amendments to today’s motion recognise that personol. Dyna pam mae ein gwelliannau i’r we need to ensure that disabled people have a cynnig heddiw yn cydnabod bod angen inni variety of options in order to live sicrhau bod pobl anabl yn cael amrywiaeth o

94 28/11/2012 independently. This should not be about opsiynau er mwyn byw’n annibynnol. Ni forcing market simulation. ddylai hyn olygu gorfodi efelychiad o’r farchnad.

You may say that this is a different issue. Gallech ddweud bod hwn yn fater gwahanol. However, I continue to be astonished to hear Fodd bynnag, rwy’n parhau i gael fy synnu o Conservatives express their concerns for glywed Ceidwadwyr yn mynegi eu pryderon disabled people, when the welfare budget am bobl anabl, pan mae’r gyllideb les y mae upon which disabled people rely so heavily pobl anabl yn dibynnu cymaint arni wedi has been, and remains, a major target for bod, ac yn parhau i fod, yn un o’r prif cuts. Monday’s report by the Institute for dargedau ar gyfer toriadau. Mae adroddiad Fiscal Studies suggests that the Chancellor’s dydd Llun gan y Sefydliad Astudiaethau austerity budget plans will not be met until Cyllid yn awgrymu na fydd cynlluniau 2018 at the earliest. George Osborne has cyllideb caledi’r Canghellor yn cael eu already earmarked £10 billion in welfare bodloni tan 2018 ar y cynharaf. Mae George budget cuts, in addition to those that have Osborne eisoes wedi clustnodi £10 biliwn been previously announced. Only last week, mewn toriadau yn y gyllideb les, yn ogystal the Conservative Minister Lord Freud â’r rhai a gyhoeddwyd yn flaenorol. Dim ond launched an attack on those claiming yr wythnos ddiwethaf, lansiodd y Gweinidog incapacity benefits. This is the same Lord Ceidwadol yr Arglwydd Freud ymosodiad ar Freud who, as an adviser to the Labour y rhai sy’n hawlio budd-daliadau Government, privatised the welfare system, analluogrwydd. Yr un Arglwydd Freud, fel bringing in companies such as A4e and Atos, ymgynghorydd i’r Llywodraeth Lafur, a and creating a new system of corporate breifateiddiodd y system les, gan ddefnyddio welfare. The Conservative-Liberal Democrat cwmnïau megis A4e ac Atos, a chreu system Government, helped by the tabloids, has newydd o les corfforaethol. Mae Llywodraeth succeeded in whipping up an intense feeling y Ceidwadwyr a’r Democrataidd of distrust with the system. The poor are Rhyddfrydol, gyda chymorth y papurau played off against each other, while the tabloid, wedi llwyddo i greu ymdeimlad multinational corporations and the very rich dwys o ddiffyg ymddiriedaeth gyda’r system. end up paying peanuts in tax. I do not even Mae’r tlawd yn cael eu chwarae yn erbyn ei need to get started on what happened with gilydd, tra bod y corfforaethau amlwladol a Remploy. That has been a bad news story phobl gyfoethog iawn ond yn talu swm pitw whichever party has been in Government in o dreth. Nid oes angen imi ddechrau sôn am London. yr hyn a ddigwyddodd gyda Remploy. Mae honno wedi bod yn stori newyddion drwg pa bynnag blaid sydd wedi bod mewn Llywodraeth yn Llundain.

Disabled people are being left destitute and Mae pobl anabl yn cael eu gadael yn reliant on underfunded advice agencies to ddiymgeledd ac yn ddibynnol ar asiantaethau challenge the appalling decisions that are cynghori sydd wedi’u tanariannu i herio’r frequently made by Atos. Of the 400,000 penderfyniadau ofnadwy sy’n cael eu appeals lodged in 2010-11, almost 40% were gwneud yn aml gan Atos. O’r 400,000 o successful. The Spartacus report, written on apeliadau a gyflwynwyd yn 2010-11, roedd the basis of evidence collected by disabled bron i 40% yn llwyddiannus. Mae adroddiad activists, set out the stories of people’s Spartacus, a ysgrifennwyd ar sail y experiences: the cruelty, the confusion, the dystiolaeth a gasglwyd gan ymgyrchwyr loss of dignity and those who kill themselves anabl, yn adrodd straeon o brofiadau pobl: y due to the misery that this process has creulondeb, y dryswch, colli urddas a’r rheini inflicted upon them. The workplace capacity sy’n lladd eu hunain oherwydd y trallod y assessment has become a byword for all that mae’r broses hon wedi’i achosi. Mae’r is wrong with the testing system. This is truly asesiad gallu yn y gweithle wedi dod yn no way for a civilised society to treat its most gyfystyr â phopeth sydd o’i le ar y system vulnerable. brofi. Nid dyma sut y dylai cymdeithas wâr

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drin ei phobl sydd fwyaf agored i niwed.

The Scope Wales paper, ‘Individualism Mae papur Scope Cymru, ‘Individualism versus Collectivism in Care’, includes some versus Collectivism in Care’, yn cynnwys very interesting ideas in relation to direct rhai syniadau diddorol iawn mewn perthynas payments. Scope proposes groups of people â thaliadau uniongyrchol. Mae Scope yn working together to buy in services, each cynnig y gellid cael grwpiau o bobl i according to their need. People should be gydweithio i brynu gwasanaethau, pob un yn empowered; they need the correct level of ôl ei angen. Dylai pobl gael eu grymuso; independence and choice so that their maent angen y lefel gywir o annibyniaeth a preferred levels of care and support are dewis arnynt fel bod eu dewis lefelau o ofal a provided. That includes support from the chymorth yn cael eu darparu. Mae hynny’n welfare system when that is also needed. It cynnwys cymorth gan y system les pan fo does not include the demonisation of people angen hynny hefyd. Nid yw’n cynnwys and it does not include prejudice. pardduo pobl ac nid yw’n cynnwys rhagfarn.

It is not always easy to undo some of the Nid yw bob amser yn hawdd dadwneud rhai institutional barriers that surround care o’r rhwystrau sefydliadol sy’n gysylltiedig â choices, but it is vital that we recognise dewisiadau gofal, ond mae’n hanfodol ein people as people, each with their own bod yn cydnabod pobl fel pobl, pob un â’i interests and preferences. We must allow ddiddordebau a’i ddewisiadau ei hun. Mae’n people to express those choices with dignity, rhaid inni ganiatáu i bobl fynegi’r dewisiadau and in their own way, wherever we possibly hynny ag urddas, ac yn eu ffordd eu hunain, can. lle bynnag y gallwn.

Gwelliant 4—Jane Hutt Amendment 4—Jane Hutt

Ym mhwynt 2a dileu ‘i adlewyrchu model yr In point 2a delete ‘to reflect the Scottish Alban o gymorth hunangyfeiriedig,’ model of self-directed support,’

Gwelliant 5—Jane Hutt Amendment 5—Jane Hutt

Ym mhwynt 2b, dileu ‘sefydlu cofrestr In point 2b delete ‘establish a voluntary genedlaethol wirfoddol o gynorthwywyr national register of personal assistants to personol i sicrhau bod ganddynt’ a rhoi yn ei ensure they’ and replace with ‘ensure le ‘sicrhau bod gan gynorthwywyr personol’. personal assistants’.

The Deputy Minister for Children and Y Dirprwy Weinidog Plant a Social Services (Gwenda Thomas): I move Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Gwenda amendments 4 and 5 in the name of Jane Thomas): Cynigiaf welliannau 4 a 5 yn enw Hutt. Jane Hutt.

Gwelliant 6—Aled Roberts Amendment 6—Aled Roberts

Ychwanegu is-bwynt newydd ar ddiwedd Add new sub-point at the end of point 2: pwynt 2: cydnabod nad yw Taliadau Uniongyrchol yn recognise that Direct Payments are not addas i bawb, ac i gynnal darpariaeth addas suitable for everyone and to maintain ar gyfer y rheini y bydd angen darparu gofal suitable provision for those who will continue cymdeithasol ar eu rhan o hyd. to need social care provided on their behalf.

Kirsty Williams: I move amendment 6 in the Kirsty Williams: Cynigiaf welliant 6 yn enw name of Aled Roberts. Aled Roberts.

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The Welsh Liberal Democrat group has long Mae grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru argued for greater use of and support for wedi dadlau ers tro y dylid gwneud mwy o direct payments and personalised budgets. ddefnydd o daliadau uniongyrchol a We do so because we believe that these chyllidebau personol a rhoi mwy o mechanisms have the potential to offer gefnogaeth iddynt. Gwnawn hynny oherwydd greater independence, control and choice for ein bod yn credu bod gan y dulliau hyn y service users, allowing them to make potensial i gynnig mwy o annibyniaeth, decisions about their care: when and how rheolaeth a dewis i ddefnyddwyr they receive it, by whom it is delivered, and gwasanaethau, gan eu galluogi i wneud how it best meets their aspirations for how penderfyniadau am eu gofal: pryd a sut y they want to live their lives. However, to maent yn ei dderbyn, gan bwy y caiff ei date, we have been slow in Wales to take ddarparu, a sut y mae’n bodloni eu dyheadau advantage of these opportunities. Research orau ar gyfer y ffordd y maent am fyw eu shows that we have low levels of take-up, bywydau. Fodd bynnag, hyd yma, rydym particularly in the older age category, and wedi bod yn araf yng Nghymru i fanteisio ar that there are low levels of awareness of the y cyfleoedd hyn. Dengys ymchwil fod nifer y ability to use direct payments by people who bobl sy’n cael taliadau uniongyrchol yn isel are in receipt of services. Even if people are yma, yn enwedig yn y categori oedran hŷn, a aware that direct payment systems exist, they bod lefelau isel o ymwybyddiaeth o’r gallu i often have poor information about how they ddefnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol gan bobl work in practice, and they are often put off sy’n derbyn gwasanaethau. Hyd yn oed os yw from taking up this option because they lack pobl yn ymwybodol bod systemau taliadau the necessary support to allow them to make uniongyrchol yn bodoli, yn aml gwybodaeth the most of the opportunities. wael sydd ganddynt o’r ffordd y maent yn gweithio yn ymarferol, ac maent yn aml yn penderfynu peidio â dewis yr opsiwn hwn am nad oes ganddynt y gefnogaeth angenrheidiol i’w galluogi i wneud y gorau o’r cyfleoedd.

However, constituents of mine who have Fodd bynnag, mae rhai o’m hetholwyr sydd engaged in issues of direct payment and wedi ymgymryd â thaliadau uniongyrchol a greater personalisation have found it mwy o bersonoleiddio wedi cael ymdeimlad incredibly liberating. Take, for instance, the o ryddhad. Cymerwch, er enghraifft, y wraig middle-aged female constituent of mine who ganol oed yn fy etholaeth sydd â sglerosis suffers from multiple sclerosis. Previously ymledol. Yn y gorffenol byddai wedi gorfod she would have to go to bed at 6.30 p.m. mynd i’r gwely am 6.30 p.m. oherwydd dyna because that is when the council could supply pryd y gallai’r cyngor ddarparu gofalwyr i’w carers to assist her to get to bed. Who in helpu i fynd i’r gwely. Pwy, yn ganol oed, middle age wants to go to bed at 6.30 p.m? sydd eisiau mynd i’r gwely am 6.30 p.m? Y She was left, instead, with the prospect of her dewis arall oedd ganddi oedd bod ei gŵr yn husband literally dragging her up the stairs to ei llusgo i fyny’r grisiau i’w hystafell wely her bedroom so that she could stay up with fel y gallai aros i fyny gyda’i theulu a her family and engage in what many people chymryd rhan yn yr hyn y byddai llawer o would regard as normal family activities. bobl yn eu hystyried yn weithgareddau Another example was the gentleman who teuluol arferol. Enghraifft arall oedd y gŵr suffered from Parkinson’s disease, who found oedd â chlefyd Parkinson, oedd yn gweld different carers coming on different days of gofalwyr gwahanol yn dod ar ddiwrnodau the week to carry out the most intimate of gwahanol o’r wythnos i gyflawni’r tasgau personal care tasks. All he wanted was the gofal mwyaf personol. Y cyfan yr oedd ei same person to come at a time that was eisiau oedd i’r un person ddod ar adeg a oedd convenient for him to undertake those most yn gyfleus iddo i ymgymryd â’r tasgau gofalu personal and intimate caring tasks. His ability mwyaf personol a phreifat. Roedd hynny’n to take up direct payments allowed him to do bosibl yn sgil ei allu i fanteisio ar daliadau just that, and his quality of life therefore uniongyrchol, ac o ganlyniad, gwellodd improved considerably. ansawdd ei fywyd yn sylweddol.

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Also, there is the example of the disabled Hefyd, mae enghraifft o ŵr anabl yn fy gentleman in my constituency who was etholaeth a oedd yn cael ei ystyried yn gleient regarded as a difficult client because he did anodd am nad oedd eisiau mynd i’r ganolfan not want to go to the day centre, although that ddydd, er mai dyna oedd yr hyn y gallai’r was what the local authority was able to offer awdurdod lleol ei gynnig iddo. Roedd yn him. Every second that he was there, he casáu pob eiliad yr oedd yno. Yn y diwedd, loathed it. In the end, he refused to go and gwrthododd fynd a chafodd ei ystyried yn un was regarded as non-compliant and an nad oedd yn cydymffurfio ac yn gwsmer awkward customer. Fortunately, a new lletchwith. Yn ffodus, yn sgil prosiect project in the Builth Wells area meant that newydd yn ardal Llanfair-ym-Muallt roedd council staff had the time to go to talk to this gan staff y cyngor yr amser i fynd i siarad â’r gentleman about what he wanted to do with gŵr am yr hyn yr oedd am ei wneud â’i his life and what he wanted support in. They fywyd a’r hyn yr oedd am gael cymorth i’w discovered that he had spent his working life wneud. Gwnaethant ddarganfod ei fod wedi in one of the great cathedral cities of treulio ei fywyd yn gweithio yn un o England, and what he missed more than ddinasoedd cadeiriol mawr Lloegr, ac mai’r anything was the ability to go to church on hyn yr oedd yn ei golli’n fwy na dim oedd y Sunday. Of course, the council could not gallu i fynd i’r eglwys ar ddydd Sul. Wrth supply anybody to help him to go to church gwrs, ni allai’r cyngor ddarparu unrhyw un on Sunday, but these council workers were i’w helpu i fynd i’r eglwys ar ddydd Sul, ond able to go to the church and engage with that llwyddodd gweithwyr y cyngor i fynd i’r community, and they found a ready volunteer eglwys ac ymgysylltu â’r gymuned honno, a who was willing to stop by that gentleman’s daethant o hyd i wirfoddolwr parod a oedd yn home on Sundays to pick him up and take fodlon galw yng nghartref y gŵr ar ddydd Sul him along to church. They were able to use i’w gasglu i fynd ag ef i’r eglwys. Bu’n some of their budget to purchase a computer bosibl iddynt ddefnyddio rhywfaint o’u for him, and he is now in e-mail contact with cyllideb i brynu cyfrifiadur iddo, ac mae all the colleagues he used to work with. His bellach yn gallu cysylltu â’r holl bobl yr mental health is significantly improved, and arferai gydweithio â hwy drwy e-bost. Mae ei with that, his physical health, and his quality iechyd meddwl wedi gwella’n sylweddol, ac of life has been fundamentally improved by yn sgil hynny, ei iechyd corfforol, ac mae the ability to have a service and support that ansawdd ei fywyd wedi gwella yn sylweddol best meet his needs and his aspirations, rather gan ei fod yn gallu cael gwasanaeth a than being imposed upon by the system. chymorth sy’n diwallu ei anghenion a’i ddyheadau yn y ffordd orau, yn hytrach na bod y system yn cael ei gorfodi arno.

We appreciate that direct payments and Rydym yn sylweddoli na fydd taliadau personalisation will not be for everybody, uniongyrchol a phersonoleiddio yn addas i and that is why we need a mixed economy, bawb, a dyna pam mae angen economi and I think that the Scottish provision that is gymysg arnom, a chredaf fod y ddarpariaeth being pursued is something that is worthy of yn yr Alban yr ydym yn mynd ar ei thrywydd a lot of merit. yn rhywbeth sy’n deilwng iawn.

I am really disappointed, as my sources tell Rwyf wir yn siomedig â’r ffaith bod fy me that despite the fact that the Government nghysylltiadau yn dweud wrthyf, er y ffaith set up a group to advise it on what it could do bod y Llywodraeth wedi sefydlu grŵp i to drive up the level of direct payments, that gynghori ar yr hyn y gallai ei wneud i group has not met this year. Dates were put gynyddu’r nifer sy’n cael taliadau into people’s diaries and those meetings uniongyrchol, nad yw’r grŵp wedi cwrdd never happened. With that kind of leadership eleni. Rhoddwyd dyddiadau yn nyddiaduron from the centre, is it any surprise that we pobl ond ni chynhaliwyd y cyfarfodydd have seen such a low take-up. I hope that the hynny. Gyda’r math hwnnw o arweiniad o’r new social services Bill will give us new canol, a yw’n syndod o gwbl bod cyn lleied o

98 28/11/2012 momentum to drive this agenda forward and bobl yn cael y taliadau uniongyrchol. to recognise the limitations of the system, Gobeithiaf y bydd y Bil gwasanaethau ensuring that no system is imposed on an cymdeithasol newydd yn rhoi momentwm individual, but that they have a range of newydd inni fwrw ymlaen â’r agenda hon ac i choices. I hope that the new legislation in the gydnabod cyfyngiadau’r system, gan sicrhau new year will give us a new opportunity to na chaiff unrhyw system ei gorfodi ar unrhyw look afresh at how we can make services un, ond yn hytrach y cânt amrywiaeth o truly meet people’s needs. ddewisiadau. Gobeithiaf y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth newydd yn y flwyddyn newydd yn rhoi cyfle newydd inni edrych eto ar y ffordd y gallwn sicrhau bod gwasanaethau wir yn diwallu anghenion pobl.

William Graham: Direct payments are William Graham: Nod taliadau intended to support independent living by uniongyrchol yw cefnogi pobl i fyw’n enabling individuals to make their own annibynnol drwy eu galluogi i wneud eu decisions and control their own lives. They penderfyniadau eu hunain a rheoli eu are intended to empower service users by bywydau eu hunain. Eu bwriad yw grymuso enabling them to have the flexibility to defnyddwyr gwasanaeth drwy eu galluogi i choose the services most appropriate for their gael yr hyblygrwydd i ddewis y needs. The Welsh Labour Government, sadly, gwasanaethau mwyaf priodol ar gyfer eu has made slow progress in promoting direct hanghenion. Yn anffodus, cynnydd araf a payments across Wales. While numerous wnaed gan Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru o ran strategies and policy statements have hyrwyddo taliadau uniongyrchol yng highlighted the need for individuals to have a Nghymru. Er bod strategaethau niferus a greater say in the running of social services, datganiadau polisi wedi amlygu’r angen i there has been little actual action to improve unigolion gael mwy o lais yn y ffordd y caiff uptake. gwasanaethau cymdeithasol eu rhedeg, ni chafwyd llawer o weithredu go iawn i gynyddu’r niferoedd.

Direct payments offer individuals the ability Mae taliadau uniongyrchol yn cynnig y gallu to organise their own social care. The Welsh i unigolion drefnu eu gofal cymdeithasol eu Conservatives are supportive of the use of hunain. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn direct payments and believe that giving cefnogi’r defnydd o daliadau uniongyrchol ac patients control over their own individual yn credu bod rhoi rheolaeth i gleifion dros eu budget, with personalisation in care, offers cyllideb unigol eu hunain, ynghyd â the individual more choice and control. We phersonoli gofal, yn rhoi mwy o ddewis a believe that the individual should be put at rheolaeth i’r unigolyn. Credwn y dylai’r the centre of the care they receive, with unigolyn fod yn ganolbwynt i’r gofal a gaiff, services designed around how and when they gyda gwasanaethau yn cael eu cynllunio o wish to receive support. amgylch sut a phryd y mae am gael cymorth.

The Deputy Minister stated during at the Dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog yn ystod yn Health and Social Services Committee y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau meeting on 3 October: Cymdeithasol ar 3 Hydref:

‘We have seen a low uptake of direct Rydym wedi gweld mai nifer fach o bobl payments in Wales. We need to do yet more sy’n cael taliadau uniongyrchol yng work to raise awareness of people’s right to Nghymru. Mae angen inni wneud mwy o ask for a direct payment and to consider how waith eto i godi ymwybyddiaeth o hawl pobl we support local authorities in raising i ofyn am daliad uniongyrchol ac i ystyried awareness of this. There is an issue here of sut rydym yn cefnogi awdurdodau lleol i godi how we support people who would like direct ymwybyddiaeth o hyn. Mae angen inni payments, but are still afraid about what it ystyried sut i gynorthwyo pobl a fyddai’n

99 28/11/2012 means.’ hoffi cael taliadau uniongyrchol, ond sy’n dal i ofni'r hyn mae’n ei olygu.

With this in mind, the social service and Gyda hyn mewn golwg, nod Bil well-being (Wales) Bill, which is due to be gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a lles (Cymru), y introduced next year, proposes to increase the disgwylir iddo gael ei gyflwyno'r flwyddyn uptake of direct payments among those who nesaf, yw cynyddu nifer y bobl a fyddai’n will benefit from them. elwa ar daliadau uniongyrchol sy’n manteisio arnynt.

The general principle of increasing the uptake Mae fforwm taliadau uniongyrchol Cymru of direct payments and extending the scope gyfan yn croesawu’r egwyddor gyffredinol o of what they can be used for is welcomed by gynyddu nifer y bobl sy’n cael taliadau the all-Wales direct payments forum. uniongyrchol ac ymestyn cwmpas yr hyn y However, to be effective, an extension of gellir eu defnyddio ar ei gyfer. Fodd bynnag, direct payments will need to have resources er mwyn bod yn effeithiol, bydd angen invested in it to achieve the desired outcome. buddsoddi adnoddau i ehangu cwmpas It is hard to see how extending the use of taliadau uniongyrchol er mwyn sicrhau’r direct payments can remain cost neutral to canlyniad a ddymunir. Mae’n anodd gweld local authorities. However, invest-to-save sut y gallai ymestyn y defnydd a wneir o initiatives may enable the extension of direct daliadau uniongyrchol barhau i fod yn niwtral payments to be successful. o ran cost i awdurdodau lleol. Fodd bynnag, gall mentrau buddsoddi i arbed olygu y gellir ehangu cwmpas taliadau uniongyrchol yn llwyddiannus.

I also support MS Society Cymru’s call to Rwyf hefyd yn cefnogi cais MS Society see the Bill strengthened and include Cymru i weld y Bil yn cael ei atgyfnerthu ac different models of citizen-directed support. yn cynnwys modelau gwahanol o gymorth a It states that gyfarwyddir gan ddinasyddion. Mae’n datgan

‘Third party management of direct payment Bod angen cyflwyno prosesau i reoli cyfrifon accounts and employment arrangements taliadau uniongyrchol a threfniadau needs to be introduced across Wales, so that cyflogaeth gan drydydd parti ledled Cymru, people who are put off by the administration fel y gall pobl nad ydynt yn hoff o’r modd y of Direct Payments can still receive the caiff Taliadau Uniongyrchol eu gweinyddu benefits of personalised care.’ ddal i fanteisio ar ofal personol.

The reality is that many people choose not to Y realiti yw bod llawer o bobl yn dewis use direct payments due to concerns about peidio â defnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol the level of support they would continue to oherwydd pryderon ynghylch lefel y cymorth receive from the local authority. As a result, y byddent yn parhau i’w gael gan yr the uptake of direct payments remains low. awdurdod lleol. O ganlyniad, mae nifer y Centres of independent living provide bobl sy’n cael taliadau uniongyrchol yn dal support with managing the budget in some yn isel. Mae canolfannau byw’n annibynnol areas of Wales, but access to this service is yn rhoi cymorth i reoli’r gyllideb mewn rhai very much a postcode lottery. The Welsh rhannau o Gymru, ond loteri cod post yw Government needs to ensure greater choice pwy a all fanteisio ar y gwasanaeth hwn. Mae and control for carers and young carers alike. angen i Lywodraeth Cymru sicrhau mwy o Any future model for social services needs to ddewis a rheolaeth i ofalwyr a gofalwyr ifanc ensure that support is available throughout fel ei gilydd. Mae angen i unrhyw fodel ar the country. gyfer gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn y dyfodol sicrhau bod cymorth ar gael ledled y wlad.

100 28/11/2012

In addition, the availability of advocacy Yn ogystal, rhaid gwella argaeledd services must be improved. The Welsh gwasanaethau eiriolaeth. Mae angen i Government needs to ensure that robust Lywodraeth Cymru sicrhau bod information, advocacy and advice services gwasanaethau gwybodaeth, eiriolaeth a are available to all recipients of social care chyngor cadarn ar gael i bawb sy’n cael services, to guide them through the process of gwasanaethau gofal cymdeithasol, i’w tywys direct payments and to ensure they receive drwy’r broses taliadau uniongyrchol ac i the appropriate support for their needs. This sicrhau eu bod yn cael y cymorth priodol ar is supported by the third sector. Age Cymru gyfer eu hanghenion. Caiff hyn ei gefnogi notes that gan y trydydd sector. Noda Age Cymru

‘Independent advocates can provide support Y gall eiriolwyr annibynnol roi cymorth i to empower people to have their voices alluogi pobl i leisio eu barn, gwneud heard, make informed choices and navigate dewisiadau gwybodus ac ymdopi â through the complexities of the social care chymhlethdod y system gofal cymdeithasol.’ system.’

4.45 p.m.

Worryingly, Age Cymru’s research has found Mae’n destun pryder bod ymchwil Age that there is only one paid advocate for every Cymru wedi canfod mai dim ond un eiriolwr 17,000 older people in Wales. Unlike the cyflogedig a geir ar gyfer pob 17,000 o bobl Welsh Government, the Scottish Government hŷn yng Nghymru. Yn wahanol i Lywodraeth has responded to calls for greater flexibility Cymru, mae Llywodraeth yr Alban wedi and choice in social care and to the low ymateb i alwadau am fwy o hyblygrwydd a uptake of direct payments by introducing a dewis mewn gofal cymdeithasol ac i’r nifer self-directed support Bill. The Welsh fach o bobl sy’n cael taliadau uniongyrchol Government urgently needs to take advice drwy gyflwyno Bil cymorth from the Scottish model to improve the hunangyfeiriedig. Mae angen i Lywodraeth situation for recipients in Wales. Unless we Cymru ddilyn esiampl model yr Alban i address the lack of advocacy provision, the wella’r sefyllfa i dderbynwyr yng Nghymru, bureaucracy and the availability of service in a hynny ar fyrder. Oni awn i’r afael â’r diffyg Wales, we will continue to lag behind our gwasanaethau eiriolaeth a ddarperir, y UK counterparts. With a projected rise in the fiwrocratiaeth ac argaeledd gwasanaethau number of people with limiting lifelong yng Nghymru, byddwn yn parhau i lusgo y tu conditions, and an increase in the number of ôl i’n cymheiriaid yn y DU. Gydag people over 65 with dementia and in the amcangyfrif y bydd cynnydd yn nifer y bobl number of looked-after children, the Welsh sydd â chyflyrau cyfyngus hirdymor, a Government must act on this issue now chynnydd yn nifer y bobl dros 65 oed â before it becomes unsustainable. dementia ac yn nifer y plant sy’n derbyn gofal, rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru weithredu ar y mater hwn yn awr cyn iddi fynd yn rhy hwyr.

Joyce Watson: With personal responsibility Joyce Watson: Gyda chyfrifoldeb personol a and state support in mind, this debate cuts chymorth y wladwriaeth mewn cof, mae’r into a big political seam. I do not want to see ddadl hon yn torri i mewn i wythïen Wales adopting the approach that is being wleidyddol fawr. Nid wyf am weld Cymru yn rolled out in England, whereby all users of mabwysiadu’r ymagwedd a gyflwynir yn adult social services have to have a personal Lloegr, lle mae’n rhaid i holl ddefnyddwyr budget. As the Plaid Cymru amendment gwasanaethau cymdeithasol i oedolion gael states, personal budgets are not suitable for cyllideb bersonol. Fel y noda gwelliant Plaid everyone. The Tories go on about choice, and Cymru, nid yw cyllidebau personol yn addas I was pleased to hear Mark Isherwood i bawb. Mae’r Torïaid yn sôn am ddewis, ac accepting today that direct payments are not roeddwn yn falch o glywed Mark Isherwood

101 28/11/2012 suitable for everyone and that they are not yn derbyn heddiw nad yw taliadau calling for everyone to have that uniongyrchol yn addas i bawb ac nad ydynt responsibility placed on them. However, am orfodi pawb i gael y cyfrifoldeb hwnnw. local authorities already have a duty to offer Fodd bynnag, mae gan awdurdodau lleol direct payments to everyone who is eligible ddyletswydd eisoes i gynnig taliadau and they can no longer choose to withhold uniongyrchol i bawb sy’n gymwys ac ni that from certain groups or for certain allant ddewis atal grwpiau penodol rhag cael services, and I think that that is good. It is a hynny mwyach nac ar gyfer rhai cultural shift and it takes time. The number of gwasanaethau, a chredaf fod hynny’n beth da. people opting to receive cash to buy their Mae’n newid diwylliannol ac mae’n cymryd care services has increased considerably over amser. Mae nifer y bobl sy’n dewis cael arian the past few years—by 60% between 2008 parod i brynu eu gwasanaethau gofal wedi and 2010. cynyddu’n sylweddol dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf—60% rhwng 2008 a 2010.

With regard to the forthcoming Bill, I hope O ran y Bil arfaethedig, gobeithiaf y bydd yn that it will strengthen the support atgyfnerthu’r trefniadau cymorth sydd ar gael arrangements that are available to individuals i unigolion i’w gwneud yn haws i bobl to make it easier for people to use direct ddefnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol, oherwydd payments, because I want to see greater take- rwyf am weld mwy yn cael y taliadau. Mae up. People are always better off when they pobl bob amser yn well eu byd pan fyddant are self-sufficient, but there is a question of yn hunangynhaliol, ond ni allwn capacity that we cannot ignore. The Tory anwybyddu’r cwestiwn o allu. Nid yw rhetoric about more and more choice does not rhethreg y Torïaid ynglŷn â mwy a mwy o help—it ignores the fact that real life is more ddewis yn helpu—mae’n anwybyddu’r ffaith complicated. People’s needs are complicated. bod bywyd go iawn yn fwy cymhleth. Mae Individuals should have control and anghenion pobl yn gymhleth. Dylai unigolion responsibility, of course, but some need gael rheolaeth a chyfrifoldeb, wrth gwrs, ond support. There are serious issues of mae angen cymorth ar rai. Mae cyflogaeth a employment and who is responsible for what. phwy sy’n gyfrifol am beth yn faterion If an individual whom you are employing difrifol. Os bydd unigolyn yr ydych yn ei falls in your home, what responsibility do gyflogi yn syrthio yn eich cartref, pa you have as the purchaser of that package? gyfrifoldeb sydd gennych chi fel prynwr y What about the people who deliver the pecyn hwnnw? Beth am y bobl sy’n packages who find themselves, one day, dosbarthu’r pecynnau a allai gael eu immediately fired from that position? These diswyddo ar unwaith o’r swydd honno? are very real issues and are examples of cases Mae’r rhain yn faterion go iawn ac yn that I have been asked to deal with. While I enghreifftiau o achosion y gofynnwyd imi support the fact that we should encourage ddelio â nhw. Er fy mod yn cefnogi’r ffaith y people to choose and buy their own services, dylem annog pobl i ddewis a phrynu eu we also have to provide professional support gwasanaethau eu hunain, mae’n rhaid inni to help them to make the right decisions. It is hefyd roi cymorth proffesiynol i’w helpu i a fact that we all struggle with too much wneud y penderfyniadau cywir. Mae’n ffaith choice. Social scientists have shown us that bod pob un ohonom yn cael trafferth os bydd we are pretty good at weighing up the pros gennym ormod o ddewis. Mae gwyddonwyr and cons of a handful of options, but if you cymdeithasol wedi dangos inni ein bod yn give us more options, we make no choice at eithaf da yn pwyso a mesur manteision ac all or choose arbitrarily—that is a fact. anfanteision llond dwrn o opsiynau, ond os byddwch yn rhoi mwy o opsiynau inni, ni fyddwn yn gwneud unrhyw ddewis o gwbl neu byddwn yn gwneud dewis mympwyol— mae hynny’n ffaith.

The final Plaid Cymru amendment raises an Mae gwelliant olaf Plaid Cymru’n codi

102 28/11/2012 important point, and it is absolutely right. pwynt pwysig, ac mae’n gwbl gywir. Nid yw Direct payments do not compensate disabled taliadau uniongyrchol yn digolledu pobl people for the loss of the disability living anabl am golli lwfans byw i’r anabl. Mae yna allowance. There is a wider issue here about fater ehangach yma ynghylch sut y mae how the UK Government is, on the one hand, Llywodraeth y DU, ar y naill law, yn gorfodi obliging people to manage their budgets by pobl i reoli eu cyllidebau drwy gyfrwng y way of the universal credit and, on the other credyd cyffredinol ac, ar y llaw arall, yn hand, taking money from people by cutting cymryd arian oddi wrth bobl drwy gwtogi benefits. With that, I will finish, but we need budd-daliadau. Gyda hynny, gorffennaf, ond to look at the very serious issues relating to mae angen inni edrych ar y materion difrifol enabling people, if they are going to go down iawn sy’n gysylltiedig â galluogi pobl, os this route, to learn about employment byddant yn dewis dilyn y llwybr hwn, i practices and employment law. ddysgu am arferion cyflogaeth a chyfraith cyflogaeth.

Mohammad Asghar: Disability of all types Mohammad Asghar: Mae anabledd o bob affects many thousands of people in Wales. math yn effeithio ar filoedd o bobl yng Disability, however, should not and must not Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylai anabledd be a barrier to anyone fulfilling their potential fod yn rhwystr i unrhyw un gyflawni ei to live their lives to the full. That is why botensial i fyw ei fywyd i’r eithaf. Dyna pam independent living is so important. mae byw’n annibynnol mor bwysig. Mae Independent living is about disabled people byw’n annibynnol yn golygu bod pobl anabl having the same level of choice, control and yn cael yr un lefel o ddewis, rheolaeth a freedom in their daily life as any able person. rhyddid yn eu bywyd bob dydd ag unrhyw For many disabled people, the current system unigolyn nad yw’n anabl. I lawer o bobl feels very top-down and bureaucratic. It is as anabl, mae’r system bresennol yn ymddangos though disabled people and their carers are yn fiwrocrataidd ac yn gweithredu o’r brig i expected to fit in with the services offered, lawr. Mae fel bod disgwyl i bobl anabl a’u rather than the needs of disabled people being gofalwyr gyd-fynd â’r gwasanaethau a paramount. Direct payments and personal gynigir, yn hytrach na’u bod yn rhoi’r budgets put power and control into the hands flaenoriaeth i anghenion pobl anabl. Mae of parents, carers or those with disability, by taliadau uniongyrchol a chyllidebau personol allowing them to commission the care and yn rhoi pŵer a rheolaeth yn nwylo rhieni, support that they need and want. The Welsh gofalwyr neu bobl anabl, drwy eu galluogi i Government states that gomisiynu’r gofal a’r cymorth sydd eu hangen a’u heisiau arnynt. Dywed Llywodraeth Cymru

‘direct payments support independent living mae taliadau uniongyrchol yn cefnogi pobl i by enabling individuals to make their own fyw’n annibynnol drwy alluogi unigolion i decisions and control their own lives’. wneud eu penderfyniadau eu hunain a rheoli eu bywydau eu hunain.

As yet, the same Welsh Government has Hyd yn hyn, cynnydd araf a wnaed gan made slow progress in promoting direct Lywodraeth Cymru o ran hyrwyddo taliadau payments. That is a strange decision. Only uniongyrchol. Mae hwnnw’n benderfyniad 5% of adults in Wales receiving community- rhyfedd. Dim ond 5% o oedolion yng based social services are in receipt of direct Nghymru sy’n cael gwasanaethau payments. Local authorities have a legal cymdeithasol yn y gymuned sy’n cael obligation to offer direct payments. However, taliadau uniongyrchol. Mae gan awdurdodau there still appears to be a lack of awareness lleol ddyletswydd gyfreithiol i gynnig of the benefits of direct payments, with taliadau uniongyrchol. Fodd bynnag, particularly low take-up among older people. ymddengys bod diffyg ymwybyddiaeth o A survey in 2008 across England and Wales fanteision taliadau uniongyrchol o hyd, gyda found that 31% of the people surveyed did nifer isel iawn o bobl hŷn yn cael taliadau

103 28/11/2012 not even know what direct payments were. uniongyrchol. Dangosodd arolwg yn 2008 ledled Cymru a Lloegr nad oedd 31% o’r bobl a holwyd hyd yn oed yn gwybod beth oedd taliadau uniongyrchol.

According to the MS Society Cymru, many Yn ôl MS Society Cymru, mae llawer o disabled adults are concerned that, if they oedolion anabl yn poeni, os byddant yn dewis choose to use direct payments, they will not defnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol, na fyddant receive any advice or support from local yn cael unrhyw gyngor neu gymorth gan authorities. Many are deterred by the level of awdurdodau lleol. Mae llawer yn penderfynu paperwork and the responsibility of peidio â’u cael oherwydd lefel y gwaith employing their own assistant or agency. papur a’r cyfrifoldeb o gyflogi eu Direct payments do not mean that disabled cynorthwywr neu asiantaeth eu hunain. Nid people should be left on their own, without yw taliadau uniongyrchol yn golygu y dylai any help. Centres of independent living do a pobl anabl gael eu gadael ar eu pen eu good job of providing support in some areas hunain, heb unrhyw gymorth. Mae of Wales, but support must be available canolfannau byw’n annibynnol yn gwneud throughout Wales. The Commissioner for gwaith da yn rhoi cymorth mewn rhai Older People in Wales, Age Cymru and the rhannau o Gymru, ond mae’n rhaid sicrhau Alzheimer’s Society have all expressed their bod cymorth ar gael ledled Cymru. Mae concern about the lack of advice services, Comisiynydd Pobl Hŷn Cymru, Age Cymru particularly for older people. Age Cymru a’r Gymdeithas Alzheimer oll wedi mynegi found that there was only one paid advocate eu pryder am y diffyg gwasanaethau for every 17,000 older people in Wales, as cynghori, yn enwedig ar gyfer pobl hŷn. my honourable friend William Graham just Canfu Age Cymru mai dim ond un eiriolwr mentioned. Wales needs a voluntary register cyflogedig sydd ar gyfer pob 17,000 o bobl of personal assistants to ensure that service hŷn yng Nghymru, fel mae fy nghyd-Aelod users have access to qualified people who are William Graham newydd ei grybwyll. Mae trained to deal with a range of conditions. angen i Gymru gael cofrestr wirfoddol o gynorthwywyr personol i sicrhau bod defnyddwyr gwasanaeth yn gallu manteisio ar gyngor pobl gymwys sydd wedi’u hyfforddi i ddelio ag ystod o gyflyrau.

I want to say a few words about personal Hoffwn ddweud ychydig eiriau am budgets. Direct payments can only be used to gyllidebau personol. Dim ond i brynu gofal purchase care or employ a personal assistant, neu gyflogi cynorthwyydd personol y gall whereas personal budgets are more flexible taliadau uniongyrchol gael eu defnyddio, tra and allow individuals to buy equipment or bod cyllidebau personol yn fwy hyblyg ac yn other services that they need. Personal caniatáu i unigolion brynu cyfarpar neu budgets have been introduced in England and wasanaethau eraill sydd eu hangen arnynt. Scotland, but not in Wales. Since direct Cyflwynwyd cyllidebau personol yn Lloegr payments cannot be used to buy services, a’r Alban, ond nid yng Nghymru. Gan na ellir such as NHS services, or equipment, for defnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol i brynu which the local authorities are not gwasanaethau, megis gwasanaethau’r GIG, responsible, this limits the level of choice, neu gyfarpar, nad yw’r awdurdodau lleol yn freedom and control that disabled people gyfrifol amdanynt, mae hyn yn cyfyngu ar y have over their own lives. I urge the Deputy dewis, y rhyddid a’r rheolaeth sydd gan bobl Minister to look again at this issue. The anabl dros eu bywydau eu hunain. Anogaf y Scottish Government is seeking to give every Dirprwy Weinidog i edrych eto ar y mater social care recipient a personal budget. Its hwn. Mae Llywodraeth yr Alban yn ceisio Social Care (Self-directed Support) sicrhau bod pob unigolyn sy’n cael gofal (Scotland) Bill provides disabled people with cymdeithasol yn cael cyllideb bersonol. Mae a range of options, not just direct payments, ei Bil Gofal Cymdeithasol (Cymorth empowering them to decide how their care is Hunangyfeirio) (Yr Alban) yn rhoi ystod o

104 28/11/2012 delivered and giving them control over their opsiynau i bobl anabl, nid taliadau own support arrangements. I call on the uniongyrchol yn unig, gan eu galluogi i Welsh Government to use the social services benderfynu sut y caiff eu gofal ei ddarparu a and wellbeing Bill to reflect and support rhoi rheolaeth iddynt dros eu trefniadau these principles for the benefit of disabled cymorth eu hunain. Galwaf ar Lywodraeth people in Wales. Cymru i ddefnyddio’r Bil gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a lles i adlewyrchu a chefnogi’r egwyddorion hyn er budd pobl anabl yng Nghymru.

Lindsay Whittle: We all recognise that the Lindsay Whittle: Mae pob un ohonom yn Welsh Government must ensure new and cydnabod bod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru integrated cross-boundary arrangements for sicrhau trefniadau trawsffiniol newydd ac the commissioning, procurement and delivery integredig ar gyfer y gwaith o gomisiynu, of social services care. We believe in caffael a darparu gofal gwasanaethau corporate accountability for the standard of cymdeithasol. Credwn mewn atebolrwydd service provided, and that must, of course, be corfforaethol ar gyfer safon y gwasanaeth a based on outcomes. ddarperir, ac, wrth gwrs, mae’n rhaid i hynny fod yn seiliedig ar ganlyniadau.

There are many methods for the delivery of Mae sawl dull o ddarparu gofal cymdeithasol. social care. One size does not fit all. On the Nid yw pob dull yn addas i bawb. Mewn issue of payments, it is important that every perthynas â thaliadau, mae’n bwysig yr individual who receives such support is fully ymgynghorir yn llawn â phob unigolyn sy’n consulted and given choice. I fully support cael cymorth o’r fath a’i fod yn cael dewis. any proposal that allows the individual to Rwy’n llwyr gefnogi unrhyw gynnig sy’n receive a sum of money, which is their caniatáu i’r unigolyn gael swm o arian, sef money, and their personal budget, to choose arian a chyllideb bersonol yr unigolyn, i their care package. The advantages are ddewis ei becyn gofal. Mae’r manteision yn enormous. It gives individuals the self- enfawr. Mae’n rhoi emosiwn hunangyflawnol fulfilling emotion of taking direct i unigolion am eu bod yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb responsibility for their own care, and that uniongyrchol am eu gofal eu hunain, ac mae leads to an improvement in their quality of hynny’n arwain at welliant yn ansawdd eu life. That is particularly relevant to younger bywyd. Mae hynny’n arbennig o berthnasol i people. The main disadvantage is that it is a bobl iau. Y brif anfantais yw ei fod yn very lightly regulated industry, and the ddiwydiant sydd ond yn cael ei reoleiddio’n people employed may not be suitable. I ysgafn iawn, ac efallai na fydd y bobl a believe that competence and qualifications gyflogir yn addas. Credaf y dylai should not only be checked, but should be cymhwysedd a chymwysterau gael eu regulated by legislation. This is a golden rheoleiddio gan ddeddfwriaeth, yn ogystal â opportunity for a carers co-operative to be chael eu gwirio. Mae hwn yn gyfle euraidd i established, so that we can move away from sefydlu cydweithrediaeth o ofalwyr, fel y profit-based agencies. Where would this gallwn symud oddi wrth asiantaethau sy’n country be without our carers, and where seiliedig ar elw. Ble fyddai’r wlad hon heb would we be without our volunteers? ein gofalwyr, a ble fyddem ni heb ein gwirfoddolwyr?

While it is important to encourage people to Er ei bod yn bwysig annog pobl i brynu eu purchase their own care, we have to protect, gofal eu hunain, fel y dywedodd Plaid as Plaid Cymru has said, those vulnerable Cymru, mae’n rhaid inni warchod y bobl people who cannot cope with their own hynny sy’n agored i niwed na allant ymdopi budgets. Otherwise, all we will do is add to â’u cyllidebau eu hunain. Fel arall, y cyfan y their stress. National Government here in byddwn yn ei wneud yw ychwanegu at eu Cardiff has a duty to work side by side with straen. Mae gan y Llywodraeth genedlaethol good public sector provision, which already yma yng Nghaerdydd ddyletswydd i weithio

105 28/11/2012 has the local knowledge and expertise to help ochr yn ochr â darpariaeth dda yn y sector people in all of our communities. This is not, cyhoeddus, sydd eisoes â’r wybodaeth a’r and never should be, a charter for the private arbenigedd lleol i helpu pobl ym mhob sector to make a profit. People must be given cymuned. Nid yw hyn, ac ni ddylai fyth fod, the choice. yn siarter i’r sector preifat wneud elw. Rhaid i bobl gael y dewis.

This debate has rightly centred on three Mae’r ddadl hon wedi canolbwyntio yn gywir issues: choice, control and independence. ar dri mater: dewis, rheolaeth ac Wales is a very proud nation, and it is, and annibyniaeth. Mae Cymru yn genedl falch will continue to be, shaped by the ambition iawn, sy’n cael, ac a fydd yn parhau i gael, ei and compassion of its people for their llywio gan uchelgais a thrugaredd ei phobl ar families. We are aware that drastic cuts to gyfer eu teuluoedd. Rydym yn ymwybodol y benefits will target the poorest and the most bydd toriadau llym i fudd-daliadau yn vulnerable in our society, which is judged by targedu’r bobl dlotaf a mwyaf agored i niwed the respect that we give, and the way that we yn ein cymdeithas, sy’n cael ei farnu gan y treat, our most vulnerable. Disabled people parch a roddwn, a’r ffordd yr ydym yn trin, fall into that most vulnerable group, and the ein pobl sydd fwyaf agored i niwed. Mae forthcoming Bill must treat those people with pobl anabl yn rhan o’r grŵp hwnnw o bobl the honour that they deserve. sydd fwyaf agored i niwed, a rhaid i’r Bil arfaethedig drin y bobl hynny â’r anrhydedd y maent yn ei haeddu.

Darren Millar: I am pleased to participate in Darren Millar: Rwy’n falch o gymryd rhan this important debate. I pay tribute to the yn y ddadl bwysig hon. Talaf deyrnged i work of Mark Isherwood in drawing attention waith Mark Isherwood yn tynnu sylw at y to this issue. The previous Labour mater hwn. Ni wnaeth y Llywodraeth Lafur Government did not do many decent things at flaenorol lawer o bethau da ar lefel y DU, UK level, but one decent thing that it did was ond un peth da a wnaeth oedd cyflwyno to introduce direct payments, and to innovate taliadau uniongyrchol, ac arloesi yn hynny o in that way. Therefore, I am disappointed to beth. Felly, rwy’n siomedig i weld bod yna see that there are still some people who rai pobl sy’n credu o hyd mai gwladwriaeth believe that the nanny state is the best way warchodol yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen. Dylai forward. Joyce Watson ought to have listened Joyce Watson fod wedi gwrando ar Brif to the previous Prime Ministers of this Weinidogion blaenorol y wlad hon, gan country, including those from her own party, gynnwys rhai o’i phlaid ei hun, a gafodd y who came up with this fantastic idea, because syniad gwych hwn, oherwydd mae hyn yn this is all about choice and empowerment for ymwneud â rhoi dewis a grym i’r bobl hynny those people who ought to have their care y dylai eu hanghenion gofal sylfaenol gael eu needs fundamentally met. diwallu yn y bôn.

I am pleased that the Welsh Government, to Rwy’n falch bod Llywodraeth Cymru, a bod be fair, has said that it wants to increase the yn deg, wedi dweud ei bod yn awyddus i number of people in receipt of direct gynyddu nifer y bobl sy’n cael taliadau payments, and I can see the Deputy Minister uniongyrchol, a gallaf weld y Dirprwy for Children and Social Services nodding. Weinidog Plant a Gwasanaethau We have a golden opportunity in the Cymdeithasol yn nodio’i phen. Mae gennym forthcoming social services and wellbeing gyfle euraidd yn y Bil gwasanaethau Bill to do just that. I want to encourage the cymdeithasol a lles i wneud hynny. Rwyf am Deputy Minister today to take that golden annog y Dirprwy Weinidog heddiw i gymryd opportunity and to make the very best y cyfle euraidd hwnnw ac i wneud y defnydd possible use of it, because we have good gorau posibl ohono, oherwydd mae gennym examples across the United Kingdom, esiamplau da ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig, yn particularly in Scotland—a number of people enwedig yn yr Alban—mae nifer o bobl wedi have mentioned the so-called Scottish model crybwyll model yr Alban fel y’i gelwir

106 28/11/2012 today—of this sort of innovation delivering heddiw—o’r math hwn o arloesi yn arwain at real benefits. We have plenty of evidence to fanteision go iawn. Mae gennym ddigon o say that people feel empowered when they dystiolaeth i ddweud bod pobl yn teimlo eu can determine who provides what care to bod wedi’u grymuso pan fyddant yn gallu them, where and at what time of day. It also penderfynu pwy sy’n darparu pa ofal iddynt, gives us an opportunity to look at the lle ac ar ba adeg o’r dydd. Mae hefyd yn rhoi artificial barriers that sometimes exist cyfle inni edrych ar y rhwystrau artiffisial between health and social care, and perhaps, sydd weithiau’n bodoli rhwng iechyd a gofal Deputy Minister, in your response to the cymdeithasol, ac efallai, Ddirprwy Weinidog, debate today, you may be able to touch on yn eich ymateb i’r ddadl heddiw, y byddwch what you might be considering in terms of yn gallu crybwyll yr hyn y gallech fod yn ei personal budgets and whether that might be ystyried o ran cyllidebau personol a ph’un a within the thinking of the Welsh Government fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried hynny in terms of driving up the direct payments mewn perthynas â chynyddu’r taliadau that might be available in Wales in the future. uniongyrchol a allai fod ar gael yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol.

5.00 p.m.

I do not want to go on much longer, but I Nid wyf am siarad am lawer hirach, ond rwyf want to touch on the issue of advocacy. I can am grybwyll eiriolaeth. Gallaf glywed Plaid hear Plaid Cymru barracking. Of course, its Cymru yn gwawdio. Wrth gwrs, nid yw ei Members have not talked about direct Haelodau wedi siarad am daliadau payments today; they have done more talking uniongyrchol heddiw; maent wedi siarad about the benefits system and some of the mwy am y system budd-daliadau a rhai o’r changes being made to that system. This is newidiadau a wneir i’r system honno. Codi the usual red herring that they throw in, and sgwarnogod y maent yn ôl eu harfer, a there have also been flippant comments about chafwyd sylwadau gwamal hefyd yn nodi this all being about the private sector. It is bod a wnelo hyn â’r sector preifat. Nid yw not; it is about empowering individuals, and hynny’n wir; mae a wnelo â grymuso you ought to listen to what we have to say unigolion, a dylech wrando ar yr hyn sydd instead of barracking across the Chamber. gennym i’w ddweud yn hytrach na gwawdio ar draws y Siambr.

In terms of the point that I want to make O ran y pwynt yr wyf am ei wneud cyn imi before I sit down, the issue of advocacy is eistedd i lawr, mae eiriolaeth yn hanfodol critically important. Clearly, those in receipt bwysig. Yn amlwg, nid yw’r rheini sy’n cael of social services and care services at the gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a gwasanaethau moment are not in receipt of sufficient gofal ar hyn o bryd yn cael digon o information about the availability of direct wybodaeth am argaeledd taliadau payments. That situation has to change, and I uniongyrchol. Mae’n rhaid i’r sefyllfa honno know that the Deputy Minister is committed newid, a gwn fod y Dirprwy Weinidog wedi to delivering some change on that front. ymrwymo i sicrhau rhai newidiadau yn hyn o However, there also has to be adequate beth. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid cael provision of advocacy services. A few people darpariaeth ddigonol o wasanaethau have mentioned this today. The Deputy eiriolaeth hefyd. Mae rhai wedi sôn am hyn Minister will be aware that the Health and heddiw. Bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog yn Social Services Committee has heard time ymwybodol bod y Pwyllgor Iechyd a and again the concerns raised by people like Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi clywed the Commissioner for Older People in Wales, dro ar ôl tro am y pryderon a godwyd gan Age Cymru and many others about the bobl fel Comisiynydd Pobl Hŷn Cymru, Age unavailability of independent advocacy Cymru a sawl un arall am y ffaith nad oes services across Wales for people who might gwasanaethau eiriolaeth annibynnol ar gael be trying to fathom out the social care system ledled Cymru ar gyfer pobl a allai fod yn for the first time in their lives and who are ceisio dirnad y system gofal cymdeithasol am

107 28/11/2012 suddenly presented with an opportunity to y tro cyntaf yn eu bywydau ac sy’n cael cyfle access what is very often high-quality care. yn sydyn i gael gafael ar yr hyn sydd yn aml However, if they are to be able to do that iawn yn ofal o ansawdd uchel. Fodd bynnag, with direct payments, they may well need the os gallant wneud hynny gyda thaliadau support that only an independent advocate uniongyrchol, efallai y bydd angen iddynt can bring. I will happily take an intervention gael y cymorth na all ond eiriolwr annibynnol from Joyce Watson. ei roi. Rwy’n fodlon derbyn ymyriad gan Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson: I am very pleased that you Joyce Watson: Rwy’n falch iawn eich bod have taken my intervention, and I thank you wedi derbyn fy ymyriad, a diolch ichi am for doing so. I want to know whether you wneud hynny. Rwyf am wybod a fyddech yn would like to look at advocacy for those fodlon edrych ar eiriolaeth i’r bobl hynny people who, for the very first time, will be sydd, am y tro cyntaf, yn elwa—gan benefitting—that was your word—from the ddefnyddio eich geiriau chi—ar y taliad sengl single payment and facing the axe that will ac yn wynebu’r fwyell a fydd yn eu hwynebu come down on them and wondering how they ac yn meddwl sut y byddant yn ymdopi â will cope with that. Therefore, I hope that hynny. Felly, gobeithiaf y byddwch yn annog you will push forward the idea that there are y syniad bod yna bobl a fydd yn egluro people who will explain that to them, and that hynny iddynt, ac y byddant yn cael eiriolwyr they will have some advocates so that they fel y byddant yn wir yn gwybod beth rydych will really know what you are doing in yn ei wneud yn y Llywodraeth. A sôn am Government. Talking about red herrings— godi sgwarnogod—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. This Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Mae hon yn ail is a second speech. That is enough. araith. Dyna ddigon.

Darren Millar: I love interventions from Darren Millar: Rwyf wrth fy modd ag Joyce Watson, because she continues to dig ymyriadau gan Joyce Watson, oherwydd mae herself into an ever bigger hole as she has hi’n parhau i balu twll dyfnach eto iddi’i hun misinterpreted what we are talking about. We gan ei bod wedi camddehongli’r hyn rydym are talking here, Joyce, about direct payments yn sôn amdano. Siarad ydym ni yma, Joyce, for those people who are in receipt of social am daliadau uniongyrchol ar gyfer y bobl care. There is agreement across the Chamber, hynny sydd yn cael gofal cymdeithasol. Mae but unfortunately there does not appear to be cytundeb ar draws y Siambr, ond yn anffodus agreement within the Labour Party about nid yw’n ymddangos bod cytundeb o fewn y whether direct payments are a good or a bad Blaid Lafur ynghylch p’un a yw taliadau thing. Perhaps you can have a chat with the uniongyrchol yn beth da neu ddrwg. Efallai y Deputy Minister afterwards, as she might be gallwch gael sgwrs gyda’r Dirprwy Weinidog able to point you in the right direction. I look wedyn, fel y gall hi eich rhoi ar y trywydd forward to the Deputy Minister’s response to cywir. Edrychaf ymlaen at ymateb y Dirprwy the debate in due course. Weinidog i’r ddadl maes o law.

The Deputy Minister for Children and Y Dirprwy Weinidog Plant a Social Services (Gwenda Thomas): I Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Gwenda welcome the opportunity for a debate on the Thomas): Croesawaf y cyfle i gael dadl ar y important issue of extending the use, where mater pwysig o ymestyn y defnydd a wneir o appropriate, of direct payments. I support daliadau uniongyrchol lle y bo’n briodol. many of the aims of this motion, but I do not Rwy’n cefnogi llawer o nodau’r cynnig hwn, believe that we are yet in a position to tie ond ni chredaf ein bod mewn sefyllfa eto i ourselves to a particular model to take glymu ein hunain i fodel penodol er mwyn forward our ambitions for direct payments. bwrw ymlaen â’n huchelgeisiau ar gyfer The amendments we have proposed to the taliadau uniongyrchol. Mae’r gwelliannau a motion reflect our desire to continue the gynigiwyd gennym i’r cynnig yn adlewyrchu wider public debate that we have begun in the ein dymuniad i barhau â’r ddadl gyhoeddus

108 28/11/2012 context of our draft social services and ehangach rydym wedi ei dechrau yng nghyd- wellbeing (Wales) Bill. Giving people a destun ein Bil gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a strong voice and real control over services lles (Cymru) drafft. Bydd rhoi llais cryf i will be at the heart of the Bill to be published bobl a rheolaeth wirioneddol dros in January, and I take on board Lindsay wasanaethau wrth wraidd y Bil a gyhoeddir Whittle’s points on that. ym mis Ionawr, a derbyniaf bwyntiau Lindsay Whittle ar hynny.

It is indeed true that the number of disabled Mae’n wir bod nifer y bobl anabl a phobl hŷn and older people using direct payments in sy’n defnyddio taliadau uniongyrchol yng Wales is relatively low. As Mark Isherwood Nghymru yn gymharol isel. Fel y dywedodd said, social services support around 150,000 Mark Isherwood, mae’r gwasanaethau people in Wales each year, but only 3,000 of cymdeithasol yn cynorthwyo tua 150,000 o these receive direct payments at the moment. bobl yng Nghymru bob blwyddyn, ond dim There is clearly more we can do to promote a ond 3,000 o’r rhain sy’n cael taliadau greater understanding of the real difference uniongyrchol ar hyn o bryd. Mae’n amlwg these payments can make, so that people can bod mwy y gallwn ei wneud i hyrwyddo make informed decisions as to whether a gwell dealltwriaeth o’r gwahaniaeth go iawn direct payment arrangement is right for them. y gall y taliadau hyn ei wneud, fel y gall pobl wneud penderfyniadau hyddysg ynghylch a yw trefniant taliadau uniongyrchol yn briodol iddynt hwy.

The overall aim of direct payments to Mae nod cyffredinol taliadau uniongyrchol, increase independence and choice, by giving sef cynyddu annibyniaeth a dewis, drwy roi individuals control over the way the available rheolaeth i unigolion dros y ffordd y resources are used, clearly fits with the defnyddir yr adnoddau sydd ar gael, yn principle of wellbeing, which is central to the amlwg yn cyd-fynd â’r egwyddor o les, sy’n social services and wellbeing (Wales) Bill. I ganolog i’r Bil gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a take the examples that Kirsty Williams gave, lles (Cymru). Derbyniaf yr enghreifftiau a and I think that that is an explanation for you, roddodd Kirsty Williams, a chredaf fod Kirsty, on that. Our working definition of hynny’n esboniad ichi ar hynny, Kirsty. Mae wellbeing, which I announced in a statement ein diffiniad gweithredol o les, a gyhoeddais on 21 October, includes that an adult should mewn datganiad ar 21 Hydref, yn cynnwys y have control over their day-to-day life. I dylai oedolyn gael rheolaeth dros ei fywyd believe that this represents a fundamental bob dydd. Credaf fod hyn yn cynrychioli shift in the way in which we will deliver newid sylfaenol yn y ffordd y byddwn yn social services in the future. darparu gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn y dyfodol.

However, direct payments will not be for Fodd bynnag, ni fydd taliadau uniongyrchol everyone, as we have heard. Some users, yn addas i bawb, fel yr ydym wedi ei glywed. especially many older people, simply do not Nid yw rhai defnyddwyr, yn enwedig llawer want the responsibility of direct payments, o bobl hŷn, am gael y cyfrifoldeb a ddaw even if these are managed on their behalf. We gyda thaliadau uniongyrchol, hyd yn oed os believe that direct payments are an option cânt eu rheoli ar eu rhan. Credwn fod taliadau that users must be made aware of, but their uniongyrchol yn opsiwn y mae’n rhaid i needs and choice must dictate take-up. For ddefnyddwyr fod yn ymwybodol ohono, ond this reason, I am happy to support eu hanghenion a’u dewisiadau fydd yn amendment 6 tabled in the name of Aled pennu’r niferoedd sy’n eu cael. Am y rheswm Roberts. hwn, rwy’n hapus i gefnogi gwelliant 6 yn enw Aled Roberts.

We are committed to making direct payments Rydym wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod taliadau easier for individuals to use, and uniongyrchol yn haws i unigolion eu

109 28/11/2012 strengthening the support arrangements defnyddio, ac mae atgyfnerthu’r trefniadau available is a central feature of that cymorth sydd ar gael yn nodwedd ganolog commitment. As I have said, the social o’r ymrwymiad hwnnw. Fel y dywedais, services and wellbeing (Wales) Bill will bydd y Bil gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a lles place service users at the heart of decision (Cymru) yn gosod defnyddwyr gwasanaethau making. It will be from that foundation that wrth wraidd y broses o wneud we will work with stakeholders, including penderfyniadau. Ar sail hyn y byddwn yn citizens themselves, to ensure that we have gweithio gyda rhanddeiliaid, gan gynnwys models of care and support that reflect that dinasyddion eu hunain, er mwyn sicrhau bod principle. I can assure Darren Millar on that. I gennym fodelau o ofal a chymorth sy’n can also say, in response to the points on adlewyrchu’r egwyddor honno. Gallaf advocacy, that I am already committed within sicrhau Darren Millar bod hynny’n wir. that Bill to build a business case for Gallaf hefyd ddweud, mewn ymateb i’r advocacy. pwyntiau ar eiriolaeth, fy mod wedi ymrwymo eisoes o fewn y Bil hwnnw i lunio achos busnes ar gyfer eiriolaeth.

I am a little surprised at the thrust of the Rwy’n synnu braidd o glywed byrdwn y motion, as I have made clear that our cynnig, gan fy mod wedi egluro na fydd ein approach will not be that taken in England. dull ni yn dilyn yr un a ddefnyddir yn Lloegr. The Welsh approach is driven by a genuine Mae’r dull Cymreig yn cael ei yrru gan wish to enable people to achieve their goals ddymuniad gwirioneddol i alluogi pobl i and live their lives in the way that they gyflawni eu nodau a byw eu bywydau yn y choose for themselves. Much work has been ffordd y maent yn ei dewis drostynt eu done in Wales to engage people in hunain. Gwnaed llawer o waith yng Nghymru discussions about our approach. I will take up i gynnwys pobl mewn trafodaethau am ein the point about the group that has not met this dull o weithredu. Af ar drywydd y pwynt am year; I will investigate and come back on y grŵp nad yw wedi cwrdd eleni; byddaf yn that. However, it is about our approach to ymchwilio ac yn adrodd yn ôl ar hynny. Fodd direct payments and other models of support. bynnag, mae a wnelo â’n dull gweithredu ni mewn perthynas â thaliadau uniongyrchol a modelau cymorth eraill.

We will also wish to consider and learn from Byddwn hefyd am ystyried a dysgu oddi wrth innovative approaches being taken elsewhere. ddulliau arloesol a ddefnyddir mewn mannau The Scottish model of self-directed support, eraill. Mae model yr Alban o gymorth centred as it is upon an expanded concept of hunangyfeiriedig, sy’n canolbwyntio fel y direct payments, is a model that we will look mae ar gysyniad ehangach o daliadau at. However, I do not think that it would be uniongyrchol, yn fodel y byddwn yn edrych wise at this stage to pre-empt that wider arno. Fodd bynnag, ni chredaf y byddai’n debate on ensuring that we are developing a ddoeth ar hyn o bryd i ragdybio canlyniad y model that is right for Wales. That is why we ddadl ehangach honno ar sicrhau ein bod yn have tabled an amendment to point 2(a) of datblygu model sy’n addas ar gyfer Cymru. the motion. Dyna pam ein bod wedi cyflwyno gwelliant i bwynt 2 (a) o’r cynnig.

The amendments that have been tabled in the Mae’r gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd yn enw name of Jocelyn Davies are consistent with Jocelyn Davies yn cyd-fynd â’n safbwynt our policy position for direct payments, and I polisi ar gyfer taliadau uniongyrchol, ac felly am therefore happy to accept and support rwy’n fodlon eu derbyn a’u cefnogi. them.

With regard to registering personal assistants, O ran cofrestru cynorthwywyr personol, nid I am not convinced that it would be desirable wyf yn argyhoeddedig y byddai’n ddymunol to set up a voluntary national register. sefydlu cofrestr genedlaethol wirfoddol. Mae

110 28/11/2012

Voluntary registers give a confusing message cofrestri gwirfoddol yn cyfleu neges ddryslyd to citizens. There is a wider issue here around i ddinasyddion. Mae mater ehangach yma o the proper boundaries of the duty of care ran ffiniau priodol dyletswydd gofal y owed by the state, service users’ wladwriaeth, cyfrifoldebau’r defnyddwyr responsibilities as employers, support for gwasanaeth fel cyflogwyr, cymorth i service users, and the implications for ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau, a’r goblygiadau safeguarding. There is a balance to be struck ar gyfer diogelwch. Mae angen sicrhau between a system of provision that is so free cydbwysedd rhwng system o ddarpariaeth that there are unacceptable risks to service sydd mor rhydd fel bod risgiau annerbyniol i users, and a system that is so fettered by ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau, a system sydd regulation and other interventions that the wedi’i llyffetheirio gymaint gan reoliadau ac choice and flexibility offered by direct ymyriadau eraill fel bod y dewis a’r payments are fundamentally compromised. hyblygrwydd a gynigir gan daliadau uniongyrchol yn cael eu cyfaddawdu yn y bôn.

Nick Ramsay: I am grateful to the Deputy Nick Ramsay: Rwy’n ddiolchgar i’r Dirprwy Minister for giving way. I hear what you say Weinidog am ildio. Clywaf yr hyn a about not wanting a voluntary national ddywedwch am fod yn erbyn cofrestr register of personal assistants. However, a genedlaethol wirfoddol o gynorthwywyr similar system is used for child minding, is it personol. Fodd bynnag, oni ddefnyddir not? If it is good enough for providing choice system debyg ar gyfer gwarchod plant? Os within that sector, why on earth can we not yw’n ddigon da i roi dewis o fewn y sector think outside the box and provide this sort of hwnnw, pam yn y byd na allwn feddwl yn service for people who would benefit from agored a darparu’r math hwn o wasanaeth i direct payments? bobl a fyddai’n elwa o daliadau uniongyrchol?

Gwenda Thomas: I think that my next Gwenda Thomas: Credaf y bydd fy comments will show you the opportunity that sylwadau nesaf yn dangos y cyfle a gawn i we will have to elaborate on this. ymhelaethu ar hyn.

It is my conviction that a wider public debate Rwy’n argyhoeddedig bod angen dadl is needed to help inform the appropriate gyhoeddus ehangach er mwyn helpu i balance, and the White Paper on regulation sicrhau’r cydbwysedd priodol, a bydd y and inspection that I am committed to, which Papur Gwyn ar reoleiddio ac arolygu yr wyf we will publish next year, will provide an wedi ymrwymo iddo, ac y byddwn yn ei opportunity for this to be considered. Again, I gyhoeddi'r flwyddyn nesaf, yn rhoi cyfle i do not wish to pre-judge the outcome of that hyn gael ei ystyried. Unwaith eto, nid wyf yn debate, and we have therefore tabled an am ragdybio canlyniad y ddadl honno, ac amendment to the motion to reflect this. felly, rydym wedi cyflwyno gwelliant i’r cynnig i adlewyrchu hyn.

In conclusion, I think that today’s debate has I gloi, credaf fod y ddadl heddiw wedi made a useful contribution to the ongoing gwneud cyfraniad defnyddiol at y drafodaeth public discussion about direct payments and gyhoeddus barhaus am daliadau uniongyrchol other models of direct support that we want a modelau eraill o gymorth uniongyrchol yr to see developed in Wales. I think that we all ydym am eu gweld yn cael eu datblygu yng agree on the fundamental principles Nghymru. Credaf fod pob un ohonom yn underpinning such a model. Take the points cytuno ar yr egwyddorion sylfaenol sy’n sail made on social enterprise. This debate has i fodel o’r fath. Cymerwch y pwyntiau a shown that there is much common ground for wnaed ar fenter gymdeithasol. Mae’r ddadl a thoughtful and progressive extension of hon wedi dangos bod llawer o dir cyffredin ar direct payments that meets the needs of gyfer ehangu taliadau uniongyrchol mewn Wales and that does not include any modd ystyrlon a blaengar sy’n diwallu

111 28/11/2012 imposition on service users, but is focused on anghenion Cymru, ac nad yw’n cynnwys meeting their needs and giving them control gosod unrhyw faich ar ddefnyddwyr of their services. gwasanaeth, ond sydd, yn hytrach, yn canolbwyntio ar ddiwallu eu hanghenion a rhoi rheolaeth iddynt dros eu gwasanaethau.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I welcome the Andrew R.T. Davies: Croesawaf y cyfle i opportunity to respond to the debate. I thank ymateb i’r ddadl. Diolchaf i’r holl Aelodau all Members who have contributed to this sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl hon, a agorodd debate, which Mark Isherwood opened so Mark Isherwood mor fedrus. Talaf deyrnged i ably. I pay tribute to the commitment and ymrwymiad Mark a’r sylw y mae wedi’i roi focus Mark has given to this issue and his i’r mater hwn a’i lwyddiant yn ennill y success in winning the ballot last week, bleidlais yr wythnos ddiwethaf, y gobeithiwn which we hope will mean further progress in fydd yn golygu cynnydd pellach o ran supporting people who require assistance cefnogi pobl sydd angen cymorth gyda’u with their payments and social care. Mark taliadau a gofal cymdeithasol. Crybwyllodd touched on the fact that it is not the position Mark y ffaith nad yw’r grŵp Ceidwadol yma of the Conservative group here that everyone o’r farn y dylai pawb gael eu gorfodi i gael should be forced to take direct payments. taliadau uniongyrchol. Mae hyn yn golygu This is supporting a model that would assist cefnogi model a fyddai’n cynorthwyo pobl people who feel able to use direct payments sy’n teimlo y gallant ddefnyddio taliadau to create individual care arrangements. The uniongyrchol i greu trefniadau gofal unigol. need for that was expressed in contributions Lleisiwyd yr angen am hynny mewn across the Chamber. Lindsay Whittle cyfraniadau ar draws y Siambr. Mae’n debyg probably summed it up best in talking about mai Lindsay Whittle grisialodd hyn orau yn the way in which direct payments empower ei sylw am y ffordd y mae taliadau people. uniongyrchol yn grymuso pobl.

What has happened here this afternoon Mae’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd yma y indicates quite a subtle change. I led a debate prynhawn yma yn dangos newid cymharol on direct payments here in 2009. It is gynnil. Arweiniais ddadl ar daliadau interesting that, at the time, Plaid Cymru, uniongyrchol yma yn 2009. Mae’n ddiddorol then a coalition Government partner, spoke bod Plaid Cymru, partner yng nghlymblaid y vehemently against direct payments through Llywodraeth ar y pryd, wedi siarad yn gryf their spokesperson Helen Mary Jones. yn erbyn taliadau uniongyrchol drwy eu Therefore, to hear the leader and Lindsay llefarydd Helen Mary Jones. Felly, mae Whittle speak in support of direct payments clywed yr arweinydd a Lindsay Whittle yn today represents a shift from the position that siarad o blaid taliadau uniongyrchol heddiw the party endorsed three years ago. I also yn newid o’r safbwynt yr oedd y blaid yn ei remember the Deputy Minister saying at the chefnogi dair blynedd yn ôl. Cofiaf hefyd y time that it would not be the Government’s Dirprwy Weinidog yn dweud ar y pryd na position to actively promote direct payments fyddai’r Llywodraeth yn hyrwyddo taliadau at that time. She said that, although direct uniongyrchol yn weithredol ar y pryd. payments were available and the Government Dywedodd, er bod taliadau uniongyrchol ar acknowledged them, there was little or no gael a bod y Llywodraeth yn eu cydnabod, political backing to push them out in Wales. nad oedd llawer o gefnogaeth wleidyddol os At that time, only 1,900 people were in o gwbwl ar gyfer eu hyrwyddo yng receipt of direct payments in Wales. Some Nghymru. Ar y pryd, dim ond 1,900 o bobl three years later, the figure is still only about oedd yn cael taliadau uniongyrchol yng 3,000, from a pool of about 150,000. Nghymru. Tua thair blynedd yn ddiweddarach, dim ond tua 3,000 yw’r ffigur hwnnw o hyd, o gronfa o tua 150,000.

After the debate, we went upstairs, where Ar ôl y ddadl, aethom i fyny’r grisiau, lle'r there was a multiple sclerosis event at which oedd digwyddiad sglerosis ymledol lle

112 28/11/2012 the Deputy Minister openly supported direct gwnaeth y Dirprwy Weinidog gefnogi payments. Therefore, I hope that the Deputy taliadau uniongyrchol yn agored. Felly, Minister now gets behind some of the gobeithiaf y bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog rhetoric she has used here today. Above all, bellach yn cefnogi rhywfaint o’r rhethreg a there is the example that the leader of the ddefnyddiwyd ganddi yma heddiw. Yn anad Welsh Liberal Democrats highlighted of the dim, yr enghraifft a amlygodd arweinydd working group that the Deputy Minister set Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru o’r up to look into the availability and support of gweithgor a sefydlwyd gan y Dirprwy direct payments in the Welsh system. It is Weinidog i edrych ar argaeledd taliadau somewhat troubling that the Deputy Minister uniongyrchol yn y system yng Nghymru a’r could not give a more compelling or gefnogaeth a geir tuag ati. Mae’n peri pryder comprehensive answer to the point made this braidd na allai’r Dirprwy Weinidog roi ateb afternoon that the group has not met this mwy gymhellol neu gynhwysfawr i’r pwynt a year. Regrettably, Deputy Minister, you are wnaed y prynhawn yma nad yw’r grŵp wedi not even in a position to confirm whether or cwrdd eleni. Yn anffodus, Ddirprwy not that is the case. It is your working group, Weinidog, nid ydych hyd yn oed mewn so that causes me and, I am sure, other sefyllfa i gadarnhau a yw hynny’n wir ai Members in this Chamber great concern peidio. Eich gweithgor chi ydyw, ac felly about whether you have your finger on the mae’n peri pryder i mi, ac Aelodau eraill yn y pulse with this issue. Siambr rwy’n siŵr, a ydych yn cadw golwg ar y mater hwn.

In their contributions to the debate, William Yn eu cyfraniadau i’r ddadl, cododd William Graham and Mohammad Asghar also made Graham a Mohammad Asghar hefyd y pwynt the point about advocacy and supporting am eiriolaeth a chynorthwyo aelodau o’r members of the public who wish to use direct cyhoedd sy’n dymuno defnyddio taliadau payments. The establishment of co- uniongyrchol. Crybwyllodd Mark Isherwood, operatives, such as the Italian model, was Darren Millar, William Graham a touched on by Mark Isherwood, Darren Mohammad Asghar fater sefydlu cwmnïau Millar, William Graham and Mohammad cydweithredol, megis y model yn yr Eidal. Asghar. In Italy, £1.3 billion-worth of social Yn yr Eidal, darperir gwerth £1.3 biliwn o support is delivered via the co-operative gymorth cymdeithasol drwy gyfrwng y model and there are some 3,000 co- model cydweithredol ac mae tua 3,000 o operatives supporting social care in Italy, gwmnïau cydweithredol yn cefnogi gofal empowering individuals to make the choices cymdeithasol yn yr Eidal, gan rymuso that best suit their lives. Deputy Minister, I unigolion i wneud y dewisiadau sy’n gweddu really hope that, ultimately, you will grab this orau i’w bywydau. Ddirprwy Weinidog, and run with it. Although we heard about gobeithiaf yn fawr y byddwch, yn y pen consultation and the social care Bill in your draw, yn bwrw ati yn hyn o beth. Er ichi sôn response, we seem to have been waiting an am ymgynghori a’r Bil gofal cymdeithasol yn eternity here in Wales for the Welsh eich ymateb, ymddengys ein bod wedi bod yn Government to start empowering people to aros am oes yma yng Nghymru i Lywodraeth take control of the difficult and challenging Cymru ddechrau grymuso pobl i gymryd environment they find themselves in when rheolaeth o’r amgylchedd anodd a heriol sy’n they get a diagnosis that could mean their eu hwynebu pan fyddant yn cael diagnosis a ability to lead a full and active life will be allai olygu bod eu gallu i fyw bywyd llawn a limited. gweithgar yn cael ei gyfyngu.

I want to make a special reference to the Rwyf am wneud cyfeiriad arbennig at y point that Darren Millar and others made on pwynt a wnaed gan Darren Millar ac eraill ar the issue of advocacy. Time and again in this eiriolaeth. Dro ar ôl tro yn y Siambr hon, mae Chamber, the issue of advocacy is raised with eiriolaeth yn cael ei godi mewn perthynas â regard to a whole host of matters, and, time llu o faterion, a thro ar ôl tro, mae and again, Ministers say they are addressing Gweinidogion yn dweud eu bod yn mynd i’r the issue, but, regrettably, we do not seem to afael â’r mater, ond, yn anffodus, nid yw’n

113 28/11/2012 move any further forward. The motion before ymddangos ein bod yn symud ymlaen o us is a simple one, so I hope that it can gain gwbl. Mae’r cynnig ger ein bron yn un syml, support around the Chamber. I urge Members felly gobeithiaf y gall ennyn cefnogaeth o to support the motion on the agenda this amgylch y Siambr. Anogaf yr Aelodau i afternoon. gefnogi’r cynnig ar yr agenda y prynhawn yma.

5.15 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar proposal is to agree the motion without y cynnig heb ei wella. A oes unrhyw amendment. Are there any objections? I see wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiad. that there are. Therefore, I defer voting on Felly, gohiriaf y bleidlais ar yr eitem hon tan this item until voting time. y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Before we proceed to voting time, are there Cyn symud i’r cyfnod pleidleisio, a oes tri three Members who wish for the bell to be Aelod sy’n dymuno i’r gloch gael ei chanu? rung? I see that there are not. Gwelaf nad oes.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio. Voting deferred until voting time. Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

Cynnig NDM5105: O blaid 19, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 30. Motion NDM5105: For 19, Abstain 0, Against 30.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad Andrews, Leighton Davies, Andrew R.T. Antoniw, Mick Davies, Byron Black, Peter Davies, Jocelyn Chapman, Christine Davies, Paul Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Suzy Drakeford, Mark Finch-Saunders, Janet Evans, Rebecca George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Griffiths, John Isherwood, Mark Griffiths, Lesley Jones, Alun Ffred Hart, Edwina Jones, Elin Hedges, Mike Jones, Ieuan Wyn Hutt, Jane Millar, Darren Jones, Ann Ramsay, Nick Lewis, Huw Sandbach, Antoinette Mewies, Sandy Whittle, Lindsay Morgan, Julie Wood, Leanne Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Williams, Kirsty

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Gwrthodwyd y cynnig. Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM5105: O blaid 25, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 24. Amendment 1 to NDM5105: For 25, Abstain 0, Against 24.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Asghar, Mohammad Antoniw, Mick Black, Peter Chapman, Christine Davies, Andrew R.T. Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Byron Drakeford, Mark Davies, Jocelyn Evans, Rebecca Davies, Paul Gething, Vaughan Davies, Suzy Gregory, Janice Finch-Saunders, Janet Griffiths, John George, Russell Griffiths, Lesley Graham, William Hart, Edwina Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hedges, Mike Isherwood, Mark Hutt, Jane Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Elin Lewis, Huw Jones, Ieuan Wyn Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Parrott, Eluned Neagle, Lynne Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Roberts, Aled Rees, David Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Whittle, Lindsay Skates, Kenneth Williams, Kirsty Thomas, Gwenda Wood, Leanne Watson, Joyce

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM5105: O blaid 24, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 25. Amendment 2 to NDM5105: For 24, Abstain 0, Against 25.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad Andrews, Leighton Black, Peter Antoniw, Mick Davies, Andrew R.T. Chapman, Christine Davies, Byron Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Jocelyn Drakeford, Mark Davies, Paul Evans, Rebecca Davies, Suzy Gething, Vaughan Finch-Saunders, Janet Gregory, Janice George, Russell Griffiths, John Graham, William Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hart, Edwina Isherwood, Mark Hedges, Mike Jones, Alun Ffred Hutt, Jane Jones, Elin Jones, Ann Jones, Ieuan Wyn Lewis, Huw Millar, Darren Mewies, Sandy Parrott, Eluned Morgan, Julie Powell, William Neagle, Lynne Ramsay, Nick Price, Gwyn R. Roberts, Aled Rathbone, Jenny

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Sandbach, Antoinette Rees, David Whittle, Lindsay Sargeant, Carl Williams, Kirsty Skates, Kenneth Wood, Leanne Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant. Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM5105: O blaid 24, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 25. Amendment 3 to NDM5105: For 24, Abstain 0, Against 25.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant. Amendment not agreed.

Cynnig NDM5105 fel y’i diwygiwyd: Motion NDM5105 as amended:

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i: Calls on the Welsh Government to: a) cyhoeddi datganiadau rheolaidd yn a) issue regular statements outlining actions amlinellu’r camau a gymerir i reoli grantiau taken to improve grants management in yn well yng Nghymru; a Wales; and b) gweithredu mesurau sy’n gwella’r b) implement measures which enhances tryloywder sydd ynghlwm wrth wario arian transparency associated with the spending of cyhoeddus. public money.

Cynnig NDM5105 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 49, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Motion NDM5105 as amended: For 49, Abstain 0, Against 0.

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Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Davies, Suzy Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y cynnig NDM5105 fel y’i diwygiwyd. Motion NDM5105 as amended agreed.

Cynnig NDM5106: O blaid 12, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 37. Motion NDM5106: For 12, Abstain 0, Against 37.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad Andrews, Leighton Davies, Andrew R.T. Antoniw, Mick

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Davies, Byron Black, Peter Davies, Paul Chapman, Christine Davies, Suzy Cuthbert, Jeff Finch-Saunders, Janet Davies, Jocelyn George, Russell Drakeford, Mark Graham, William Evans, Rebecca Isherwood, Mark Gething, Vaughan Millar, Darren Gregory, Janice Ramsay, Nick Griffiths, John Sandbach, Antoinette Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig. Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM5106: O blaid 49, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 1 to NDM5106: For 49, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

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Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM5106: O blaid 32, Ymatal 5, Yn erbyn 12. Amendment 2 to NDM5106: For 32, Abstain 5, Against 12.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Asghar, Mohammad Antoniw, Mick Davies, Andrew R.T. Chapman, Christine Davies, Byron Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Paul Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Suzy Drakeford, Mark Finch-Saunders, Janet Evans, Rebecca George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Isherwood, Mark Griffiths, John Millar, Darren Griffiths, Lesley Ramsay, Nick Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Sandbach, Antoinette Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David

119 28/11/2012

Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Wood, Leanne

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol: The following Members abstained:

Black, Peter Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Roberts, Aled Williams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM5106: O blaid 49, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 3 to NDM5106: For 49, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

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Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 4 i NDM5106: O blaid 25, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 24. Amendment 4 to NDM5106: For 25, Abstain 0, Against 24.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 5 i NDM5106: O blaid 32, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 17. Amendment 5 to NDM5106: For 32, Abstain 0, Against 17.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Asghar, Mohammad Antoniw, Mick Black, Peter Chapman, Christine Davies, Andrew R.T. Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Byron Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Drakeford, Mark Davies, Suzy Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet Gething, Vaughan George, Russell Gregory, Janice Graham, William Griffiths, John Isherwood, Mark

121 28/11/2012

Griffiths, Lesley Millar, Darren Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Parrott, Eluned Hart, Edwina Powell, William Hedges, Mike Ramsay, Nick Hutt, Jane Roberts, Aled Jones, Alun Ffred Sandbach, Antoinette Jones, Ann Williams, Kirsty Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 6 i NDM5106: O blaid 49, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 6 to NDM5106: For 49, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

122 28/11/2012

Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 7 i NDM5106: O blaid 49, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0. Amendment 7 to NDM5106: For 49, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:

123 28/11/2012

Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Cynnig NDM5106 fel y’i diwygiwyd: Motion NDM5106 as amended:

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru: To propose that National Assembly for Wales:

2. Yn cydnabod nad yw Taliadau 2. Recognises that Direct Payments are not Uniongyrchol yn briodol ar gyfer pob person appropriate for all disabled people. anabl.

3. Yn cydnabod na fyddai rhagor o ddefnydd 3. Recognises that more use of Direct o Daliadau Unigol yn digolledu pobl anabl Payments would not compensate disabled am golli’r lwfans byw i’r anabl. people for the loss of disability living allowance.

4. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i: 4. Calls for the Welsh Government to: a) cynnal gofal cymdeithasol a gyllidir yn a) maintain directly funded social care uniongyrchol ochr yn ochr â Thaliadau alongside Direct Payments;’ Uniongyrchol; b) defnyddio'r Bil Gwasanaethau b) use the Social Services and Wellbeing Bill Cymdeithasol a Llesiant i sicrhau bod to ensure that social care users can control defnyddwyr gofal cymdeithasol yn gallu their care and support packages through rheoli eu pecynnau gofal a chymorth drwy direct payments and third-party managed daliadau uniongyrchol a chyfrifon a reolir accounts; gan drydydd partïon;

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c) gweithio i sicrhau gan gynorthwywyr c) work to ensure personal assistants have personol y gefnogaeth a’r hyfforddiant the appropriate support and training to equip priodol i’w harfogi â’r sgiliau i ymdrin ag them with the skills to deal with a range of ystod o gyflyrau; conditions; d) annog cynorthwywyr personol i ddarparu d) encourage personal assistants to provide a rhwydwaith o gefnogaeth i ddefnyddwyr network of support for service users in the gwasanaeth os bydd amgylchiadau’n codi event of unforeseen circumstances; nad oedd modd eu rhagweld; e) cydnabod nad yw Taliadau Uniongyrchol e) recognise that Direct Payments are not yn addas i bawb, ac i gynnal darpariaeth suitable for everyone and to maintain addas ar gyfer y rheini y bydd angen darparu suitable provision for those who will continue gofal cymdeithasol ar eu rhan o hyd; a to need social care provided on their behalf; and f) sicrhau bod pobl anabl yn cael gwybodaeth f) ensure disabled people are provided with a chyngor am eu hawliau, a bod information and advice concerning their gwasanaethau cynghori’n gymwys i entitlements, and that advisory services are gynorthwyo pobl anabl i lywio eu ffordd drwy equipped to assist disabled people in system annheg a diffygiol yr asesiadau gallu i navigating the unfair and flawed system of weithio. work capability assessments.

Cynnig NDM5106 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 37, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 12. Motion NDM5106 as amended: For 37, Abstain 0, Against 12.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton Asghar, Mohammad Antoniw, Mick Davies, Andrew R.T. Black, Peter Davies, Byron Chapman, Christine Davies, Paul Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Suzy Davies, Jocelyn Finch-Saunders, Janet Drakeford, Mark George, Russell Evans, Rebecca Graham, William Gething, Vaughan Isherwood, Mark Gregory, Janice Millar, Darren Griffiths, John Ramsay, Nick Griffiths, Lesley Sandbach, Antoinette Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Ann Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sargeant, Carl

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Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y cynnig NDM5106 fel y’i diwygiwyd. Motion NDM5106 as amended agreed.

Dadl Fer Short Debate

Rail Cymru—Rheilffordd y Bobl i Gymru Rail Cymru—A People’s Railway for Wales

Vaughan Gething: The title for today’s Vaughan Gething: Mae’r teitl ar gyfer y debate is based on the Co-operative Party ddadl heddiw yn seiliedig ar adroddiad y report launched today, and I have agreed that Blaid Gydweithredol a lansiwyd heddiw, ac Eluned Parrott and Mick Antoniw can have a rwyf wedi cytuno y gall Eluned Parrott a minute of my time in which to speak in this Mick Antoniw gael munud o’m hamser i debate. This week, an independent review siarad yn y ddadl hon. Yr wythnos hon, caiff into the West Coast rail franchise debacle adolygiad annibynnol i lanastr masnachfraint will be delivered to Whitehall. The initial rheilffyrdd West Coast ei gyflwyno i findings report found ‘significant technical Whitehall. Canfu’r adroddiad canfyddiadau flaws’ in the franchise process, amounting to cychwynnol ddiffygion technegol sylweddol ‘an accumulation of significant errors’ that ym mhroses y fasnachfraint, a oedd yn ‘resulted in a flawed process’. Initially, much cyfateb i gasgliad o wallau sylweddol a has been, and will be, said about whether arweiniodd at broses ddiffygiol. I ddechrau, FirstGroup overestimated or inflated its bid. roedd cryn dipyn o drafod o ran pa un a What has been a further worry is the report’s wnaeth FirstGroup oramcangyfrif ei gynnig suggestion that the franchise process itself neu gyflwyno cynnig chwyddedig, a bydd y drafodaeth honno yn parhau. Pryder arall yw awgrym yr adroddiad bod y broses ei hun ar gyfer y fasnachfraint

‘was developed late, in a hurry and without wedi’i datblygu’n hwyr, ar frys ac heb proper planning and preparation’ unrhyw waith cynllunio a pharatoi priodol and that led to the oversight of the potential a bod hynny wedi arwain at fethiant i nodi’r riskiness of the group and the revenue risgiau posibl a oedd yn gysylltiedig â’r grŵp assumptions in the bid. a’r rhagdybiaethau refeniw yn y cynnig.

What this fiasco should really call into Dylai’r methiant hwn—y tu hwnt i question—beyond the revenue estimates of a amcangyfrifon refeniw cwmni preifat sy’n private company bidding for a franchise, the gwneud cynnig am fasnachfraint, gwaith y work of the suspended civil servants or the gweision sifil a waharddwyd neu fanylion y specifics of this particular bidding process— broses cynigion benodol hon—fwrw is the future of the current franchising model. amheuon ynghylch dyfodol y model The experience of rail franchising in the UK masnachfraint presennol. O ystyried ein is that this is no way to run a railway. profiad o fasnachfreintiau rheilffordd yn y Franchising, regardless of its suitability for DU, nid dyma’r ffordd i redeg rheilffordd. other commercial activities, is simply not a fit Nid yw masnachfreintiau, pa un a ydynt yn model to provide improving quality and value addas ar gyfer gweithgareddau masnachol for money for rail passenger services. That eraill ai peidio, yn fodel addas o ran darparu requires long-term stability, combined with a gwell ansawdd a gwerth am arian i

126 28/11/2012 high degree of public accountability. The wasanaethau teithwyr rheilffordd. Mae franchising process usually results in the hynny’n gofyn am sefydlogrwydd hirdymor, highest bidder winning, regardless of quality, wedi’i gyfuno â lefel uchel o atebolrwydd value for money or, indeed, business cyhoeddus. O fewn proses masnachfraint, fel sustainability. arfer y cynnig uchaf fydd yn fuddugol, heb ystyried ansawdd, gwerth am arian nac, yn wir, gynaliadwyedd y busnes.

Longer term, this farce could have an even Yn y tymor hwy, gallai’r ffars hwn gael greater impact on the taxpayer, because, if effaith fwy byth ar y trethdalwr, oherwydd, winning franchise bids now become much os bydd cynigion buddugol ar gyfer lower, the Department for Transport—or, masnachfraint yn awr yn dod yn llawer is, more likely, the fare-paying passenger—will mae’n debyg y bydd yn rhaid i’r Adran probably have to bridge a funding gap. Drafnidiaeth—neu, yn fwy tebygol, y Recent research confirms that about 73% of teithwyr sy’n talu am eu tocynnau—bontio regular rail users in the UK would like to bwlch ariannol. Mae gwaith ymchwil have a greater say in the rail company that diweddar yn cadarnhau y byddai tua 73% o they use most frequently, and 63% of adults bobl sy’n defnyddio’r rheilffordd yn believe that passengers should have a greater rheolaidd yn y DU yn hoffi cael mwy o lais stake in train operating companies. Sadly, yn y cwmni rheilffordd y maent yn ei rather than focusing on a greater sense of ddefnyddio amlaf, a bod 63% o oedolion o’r public accountability, and a stronger voice farn y dylai teithwyr chwarae rhan fwy for passengers and staff, it is the passengers’ amlwg mewn cwmnïau gweithredu trenau. purse that is likely to receive the greatest Yn anffodus, yn hytrach na chanolbwyntio ar amount of attention and demand under the fwy o ymdeimlad o atebolrwydd cyhoeddus, current franchise model. a llais cryfach i deithwyr a staff, pwrs y teithwyr sy’n debygol o gael y sylw mwyaf a’r galw mwyaf arno o dan y model masnachfraint presennol.

Over the past 15 years, Britain’s railways Dros y 15 mlynedd diwethaf, bu rheilffyrdd have been the subject of a completely unique Prydain yn destun arbrawf cwbl unigryw. experiment. They were broken up and Fe’u rhannwyd a’u preifateiddio mewn privatised in a model more radical and model mwy radical a gwahanol i unrhyw beth different to anything else that existed in the a fodolai yn y byd ar y pryd nac sydd wedi world at the time or that has existed since. bodoli ers hynny. Cafodd pob rhan o Every part of a fragmented industry was sold ddiwydiant rhanedig ei gwerthu neu ei or passed on to the private sector. The result throsglwyddo i’r sector preifat. O ganlyniad, is that running a rail network is now three to mae rhedeg rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd dair i four times more expensive than it was when bedair gwaith yn ddrutach nag yr oedd o dan it was in public ownership, and you cannot berchenogaeth gyhoeddus, ac ni ellir honni say that quality has risen to match the bod ansawdd wedi gwella i adlewyrchu’r increase in cost. The higher cost equates to cynnydd mewn cost. Mae’r gost uwch yn about £1.2 billion a year. The current cyfateb i tua £1.2 biliwn y flwyddyn. Nid franchise model does not protect the public yw’r model masnachfraint presennol yn purse or effectively shift risk onto the gwarchod arian y cyhoedd nac yn franchisee. There is a good example of this in trosglwyddo’r risg i ddeiliad y fasnachfraint. Wales. We are all aware that FirstGroup is Mae Cymru yn enghraifft dda o hyn. Rydym returning the Great Western main line oll yn ymwybodol bod FirstGroup yn franchise early, and that Stagecoach returned dychwelyd masnachfraint prif reilffordd one of its franchises early because it could Great Western yn gynnar, a bod Stagecoach not operate the franchise without an even wedi dychwelyd un o’i fasnachfreintiau yn greater level of public subsidy. The profit had gynnar am na allai weithredu’r fasnachfraint been taken out and given to shareholders— heb lefel uwch byth o gymhorthdal the company had been rewarded earlier in the cyhoeddus. Tynnwyd yr elw a’i roi i

127 28/11/2012 life of the franchise—but the franchise was gyfranddalwyr—gwobrwywyd y cwmni yn then returned to the public and the taxpayer gynharach yn ystod oes y fasnachfraint—ond when the company no longer believed that wedyn dychwelwyd y fasnachfraint i’r there was enough shareholder return in it. cyhoedd ac i’r trethdalwr pan nad oedd y That really is no way to run a rail service. cwmni bellach o’r farn bod digon o elw i gyfranddalwyr. Nid dyna’r ffordd i redeg gwasanaeth rheilffordd, wir.

Looking closer to home, the Wales and the Gan edrych yn agosach gartref, bydd Borders franchise, which we all know, for masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau, a gaiff ei our sins, is currently run by Arriva Trains redeg ar hyn o bryd, fel y gŵyr pob un Wales, comes up for renewal in 2018. That ohonom, er ein gwaethaf, gan Arriva Trains provides a unique opportunity to set new Cymru, yn cael ei adnewyddu yn 2018. Mae objectives for how a high-quality railway can hynny’n rhoi cyfle unigryw i bennu amcanion be achieved in the UK and to completely newydd o ran sut y gellir sicrhau rheilffordd rethink the way that rail passenger services o ansawdd uchel yn y DU ac i ailfeddwl yn are delivered. In other words, the question for llwyr am y ffordd y caiff gwasanaethau me is: how can we introduce cooperative rheilffordd eu darparu i deithwyr. Hynny yw, values into a modern rail service? The y cwestiwn i mi yw: sut y gallwn gyflwyno Cooperative Party report, ‘Rail Cymru—A gwerthoedd cydweithredol i wasanaeth People’s Railway for Wales’, was launched rheilffordd modern? Lansiwyd adroddiad y today in Tŷ Hywel. I am grateful to a range Blaid Gydweithredol, ‘Rail Cymru— of Assembly Members and their staff for Rheilffordd y Bobl i Gymru’, heddiw yn Nhŷ attending, and I thank ASLEF, Cooperatives Hywel. Rwy’n ddiolchgar i amryw o and Mutuals Wales, Cooperatives UK, and Aelodau’r Cynulliad a’u staff am ddod, a the Socialist Environment and Resources diolch i ASLEF, Cwmnïau Cydweithredol a Association for their support. I am especially Chydfuddiannol Cymru, Cooperatives UK a’r pleased that the report’s author was Professor Gymdeithas Amgylchedd ac Adnoddau Paul Salveson. He is not just a co-operator. Sosialaidd am eu cefnogaeth. Rwy’n hynod He is a man with significant rail industry falch mai’r Athro Paul Salveson oedd awdur expertise, having been a senior manager in yr adroddiad. Nid dim ond cydweithredwr Northern Rail. ydyw. Mae’n ddyn ag arbenigedd sylweddol o ran y diwydiant rheilffyrdd, gan iddo weithio fel uwch reolwr yn Northern Rail.

Welsh Labour pledged in our Assembly Addawodd Llafur Cymru yn ein maniffesto election manifesto that we would examine the ar gyfer etholiadau’r Cynulliad y byddem yn feasibility of running the next franchise, if we ystyried dichonoldeb rhedeg y fasnachfraint are able to do so, on a not-for-dividend basis. nesaf, os gallwn wneud hynny, ar sail nid-er- That obviously provides an opportunity for a difidend. Mae hynny’n amlwg yn galluogi cooperative or mutual model. For a not-for- model cydweithredol neu gydfuddiannol. Er divided company at arm’s-length from the mwyn i gwmni nid-er-difidend hyd braich ar Government to succeed, it has to marry a y Llywodraeth lwyddo, rhaid iddo gyfuno high-quality public service ethos with ethos gwasanaeth cyhoeddus o ansawdd commercial discipline. Glas Cymru uchel â disgyblaeth fasnachol. Mae Glas demonstrates that successful large-scale Cymru yn enghraifft o’r ffordd y gall public utilities are possible in Wales: it is a cyfleustodau cyhoeddus mawr lwyddo yng business that has substantial risks and Nghymru: mae’n fusnes â risgiau sylweddol a potential liabilities, but it is nevertheless rhwymedigaethau posibl, ond serch hynny, successful. mae’n llwyddiannus.

The benefits of not-for-dividend, co- Mae buddiannau strwythurau cydweithredol operative or mutual structures are obvious neu gydfuddiannol nid-er-difidend yn amlwg and they include having voluntary and open ac maent yn cynnwys y ffaith bod ganddynt membership, with some democratic member aelodaeth wirfoddol ac agored, gyda

128 28/11/2012 control and economic participation. The John rhywfaint o reolaeth gan aelodau Lewis Partnership has found that that democrataidd a chyfranogiad economaidd. provides a greater sense of collective ethos in Canfu Partneriaeth John Lewis fod hynny’n relation to public service and lower staff arwain at ymdeimlad gwell o ethos cyfun absence. I hope that it would also eradicate a mewn perthynas â gwasanaeth cyhoeddus a ‘them versus us’ perception, with railway lefelau absenoldeb staff is. Gobeithio y users feeling that they are there only to have byddai hefyd yn cael gwared ar y syniad o money taken off them in revenue and are not ‘nhw yn erbyn ni’, lle mae defnyddwyr necessarily receiving a quality product, and rheilffordd yn teimlo mai eu hunig bwrpas that profits are always delivered into yw talu refeniw ac nad ydynt o reidrwydd yn shareholder dividends. I also hope that it cael cynnyrch o ansawdd, ac nad yw’r elw would restore a public service ethos, in which bob amser yn cael ei drosglwyddo i rail workers would buy in to creating the very ddifidendau cyfranddalwyr. Gobeithio hefyd best possible railway for users in Wales. y byddai’n adfer ethos gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, lle y byddai gweithwyr rheilffordd yn ymrwymo i greu’r rheilffordd gorau posibl i ddefnyddwyr yng Nghymru.

There is, of course, the challenge of getting Wrth gwrs, mae sicrhau’r cydbwysedd cywir the balance right between passenger and rhwng anghenion teithwyr a gweithwyr, employee needs, local government and llywodraeth leol a rhanddeiliaid, a stakeholders, and the interests of the Welsh buddiannau Llywodraeth Cymru yn her. Mae Government. That is a crucial factor, but it is hynny’n ffactor hollbwysig, ond nid yw, not, in itself, an insurmountable obstacle. ynddo’i hun, yn rhwystr anorchfygol. O Given the large public subsidy, and the ystyried y lefel uchel o gymhorthdal operating control that should exist within the cyhoeddus, a’r rheolaeth weithredol a ddylai Welsh Government, this model should have fodoli o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru, dylai’r an advantage over an alternative co-operative model hwn fod yn fwy buddiol na model model, under which the risk is largely taken cydweithredol amgen, gyda’r perchenogion on by the owners themselves. Having that eu hunain yn cymryd y risg, i raddau helaeth. arm’s-length model means that there is real Mae sefydlu’r model hyd braich hwnnw yn scope for enterprise and a degree of sensible golygu bod cyfleoedd gwirioneddol i fod yn commercial risk-taking. That could be flaengar a chymryd lefelau synhwyrol o risg delivered by a not-for-dividend company fasnachol. Gallai cwmni nid-er-difidend limited by guarantee, providing an ethos that cyfyngedig drwy warant gyflawni hynny, gan is entirely in keeping with co-operative ddarparu ethos sy’n cydymffurfio’n llwyr â values. gwerthoedd cydweithredol.

5.30 p.m.

The vision for Rail Cymru is to be a leading Y weledigaeth ar gyfer Rail Cymru yw bod enterprise in Wales that provides excellent yn fenter flaenllaw yng Nghymru sy’n service to customers, value for money to the darparu gwasanaeth rhagorol i gwsmeriaid, taxpayer, and high levels of employee and gwerth am arian i’r trethdalwr, a lefelau uchel community engagement. That vision goes o ymgysylltu â chyflogeion a’r gymuned. beyond the normal expectations of what a Mae’r weledigaeth honno yn mynd y tu hwnt private sector company would promote, and i ddisgwyliadau arferol o ran yr hyn y byddai should provide a really strong commitment to cwmni sector preifat yn ei hyrwyddo, a dylai social responsibility. As set out in the report, ddarparu ymrwymiad cryf iawn i gyfrifoldeb it should provide the potential to work with cymdeithasol. Fel y nodir yn yr adroddiad, schools and young people to improve the dylai ddarparu’r potensial i weithio gydag employability of hard-to-reach groups. It ysgolion a phobl ifanc i wella cyflogadwyedd should help to tackle climate change and grwpiau anodd eu cyrraedd. Dylai helpu i improve the efficiency of Welsh fynd i’r afael â newid yn yr hinsawdd a businesses—and we all know how vital gwella effeithlonrwydd busnesau yng

129 28/11/2012 transport is to our own economic futures. It Nghymru—ac rydym oll yn ymwybodol o should develop a healthy and skilled bwysigrwydd trafnidiaeth i’n dyfodol workforce, seeing profits re-invested into economaidd ni ein hunain. Dylai ddatblygu workers and the quality product that they gweithlu iach a medrus, a fydd yn gweld bod produce, and it should improve commercial elw yn cael ei ail-fuddsoddi mewn gweithwyr operations and, in particular, place more a’r cynnyrch o ansawdd a gynhyrchir emphasis on a local supply chain that could ganddynt, a dylai wella gweithrediadau have a positive and fair commercial masnachol ac, yn benodol, roi mwy o relationship with businesses, including social bwyslais ar gadwyn gyflenwi leol a allai enterprises. feithrin cydberthynas fasnachol gadarnhaol a theg gyda busnesau, gan gynnwys mentrau cymdeithasol.

Rail Cymru should be in a strong position to Dylai Network Cymru fod mewn sefyllfa gref take advantage of the Welshness of its brand. i fanteisio ar Gymreictod ei frand. Os If we look at regions of England, we see that edrychwn ar ranbarthau Lloegr, gwelwn fod Merseyrail and Transport for London are Merseyrail a Transport for London yn good examples of strong identifiable brands enghreifftiau da o frandiau cryf sy’n hawdd allowing and encouraging local populations eu hadnabod sy’n rhoi cyfle i boblogaethau to have buy-in, and to feel that they have a lleol gyfrannu atynt ac yn eu hannog i wneud stake in the success and continued operation hynny, ac i deimlo bod ganddynt ran i’w of that company. The aspiration is that Rail chwarae yn llwyddiant a gweithrediad Cymru could itself become a mark of quality parhaus y cwmni hwnnw. Y dyhead yw y and reliability. gallai Rail Cymru ei hun ddod yn nod o ansawdd a dibynadwyedd.

The current subsidy given to Arriva Trains Rhoddir cymhorthdal o tua £140 miliwn y Wales is approximately £140 million a year, flwyddyn i Trenau Arriva Cymru ar hyn o together with substantial investment in bryd, ynghyd â buddsoddiad sylweddol infrastructure, from the Welsh Government. mewn seilwaith, gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Ni The proposed not-for-profit operating fyddai’r cwmni gweithredu nid-er-elw company would not alter that current arfaethedig yn newid y trefniant presennol arrangement, and certainly would not cost hwnnw, ac yn sicr, ni fyddai’n gofyn am fwy any more public funding. There would be o arian cyhoeddus. Byddai rhai costau some up-front costs in setting up a not-for- sefydlu o ran rhoi gweithrediad nid-er- dividend operation, but these are likely to be difidend ar waith, ond maent yn debygol o lower than the current costs of franchise fod yn is na chostau presennol rheoli’r management and arrangements in any event. fasnachfraint a’r trefniadau cysylltiedig beth To put this into perspective, public subsidy bynnag. Er mwyn rhoi’r sefyllfa yn ei gyd- towards the Wales and Borders franchise has destun, rhoddwyd cymhorthdal cyhoeddus o been approximately £1.02 billion since 2003, tua £1.02 biliwn i fasnachfraint Cymru a’r with fare box revenue being over £440 Gororau ers 2003, gyda refeniw blychau million. Arriva Trains Wales has invested tocynnau dros £440 miliwn. Mae Trenau £30 million. To put that another way, Arriva Arriva Cymru wedi buddsoddi £30 miliwn. Trains Wales has provided around 2% of all Mewn geiriau eraill, mae Trenau Arriva investment to date. Cymru wedu darparu tua dau y cant o gyfanswm y buddsoddiad hyd yn hyn.

Instead of leaking profits to shareholders, any Yn hytrach na rhoi’r elw i gyfranddalwyr, surplus could and would be returned into the gellid dychwelyd unrhyw warged i’r busnes, business to improve the trains themselves— a dyna fyddai’n digwydd, er mwyn gwella’r and we all know the problems of trenau eu hunain—ac rydym oll yn overcrowding and poor rolling stock on some ymwybodol o broblemau gorlenwi a lines, especially the heaviest used commuter cherbydau gwael ar rai llinellau, yn enwedig lines—to improve facilities for passengers at y llinellau a ddefnyddir fwyaf gan

130 28/11/2012 stations, particularly those with disabilities, gymudwyr—er mwyn gwella cyfleusterau i such as parking, to provide additional space deithwyr mewn gorsafoedd, yn enwedig y for luggage and bikes, and also to provide rhai ag anableddau, megis parcio, er mwyn money for the maintenance of the current darparu lle ychwanegol ar gyfer bagiau a diesel fleet and for the future electric fleet. beiciau, a hefyd er mwyn darparu arian ar gyfer cynnal a chadw’r fflyd diesel presennol a’r fflyd trydan yn y dyfodol.

Ensuring the right governance structure of Byddai sicrhau’r strwythur llywodraethu Rail Cymru would also be vital. The proposal priodol i Rail Cymru yn hollbwysig hefyd. set out in the report is a three-tier structure Mae’r cynnig a nodir yn yr adroddiad yn with balanced representation across Wales cyflwyno strwythur tair haen â and the Borders, and a practical senior chynrychiolaeth gytbwys ledled Cymru a’r management structure. This would mean a Gororau, a strwythur uwch reolwyr national board, involving a range of interests, ymarferol. Byddai hyn yn golygu bwrdd a national stakeholder forum and area cenedlaethol, yn cynnwys ystod o stakeholder fora, to make sure that everyone fuddiannau, fforwm rhanddeiliaid has a direct link to the management and cenedlaethol a fforymau ardal i randdeiliaid, operation of the company. er mwyn sicrhau bod gan bawb gyswllt uniongyrchol â’r broses o reoli a gweithredu’r cwmni.

Much, of course, will depend on political Bydd llawer, wrth gwrs, yn dibynnu ar factors. The legislative framework is ffactorau gwleidyddol. Mae’r fframwaith important. Since 2006, the Welsh deddfwriaethol yn bwysig. Ers 2006, bu Government has had responsibility for the Llywodraeth Cymru yn gyfrifol am fanyleb y specification and primary management of the fasnachfraint a’r broses sylfaenol o’i rheoli, franchise, with funding largely coming from gyda’r arian yn dod yn bennaf gan yr Adran the Department for Transport. However, the Drafnidiaeth. Fodd bynnag, yr Adran main power to let the franchise is still, Drafnidiaeth, ar y cyfan, sydd â’r prif bŵer i primarily, with the Department for Transport. roi’r fasnachfraint o hyd.

It is possible that there may need to be an Mae’n bosibl y bydd angen diwygio adran 25 amendment of section 25 of the Railways Act o Ddeddf Rheilffyrdd 2005. Fodd bynnag, 2005. However, that will not happen with the nid yw Llywodraeth bresennol y DU yn current UK Government, allowing what looks debygol o adael i gwmni sy’n edrych fel like a publicly owned company to operate a cwmni eiddo cyhoeddus weithredu franchise. We should be alive to that masnachfraint. Dylem fod yn barod i challenge and we should look to work with wynebu’r her honno a dylem geisio gweithio the proposals that we already have to ensure gyda’r cynigion a gyflwynwyd eisoes er that we are not put off by a practical mwyn sicrhau na fydd her ymarferol yn ein challenge to deliver a real, co-operative or hatal rhag cyflwyno model cydweithredol mutual model for running a railway. neu gydfuddiannol gwirioneddol ar gyfer rhedeg rheilffordd.

The Welsh Government would still be the Llywodraeth Cymru fyddai’r prif ariannwr o main funder and specifier of the services hyd a hi fyddai’n dynodi’r gwasanaethau i’w provided by Rail Cymru, as well as having darparu gan Rail Cymru, yn ogystal â bod yn responsibility for funding large capital gyfrifol am ariannu prosiectau cyfalaf mawr. projects. It would not be a branch of Welsh Ni fyddai’n gweithredu fel un o ganghennau Government, but it would have a close and Llywodraeth Cymru, ond byddai meaningful working relationship. I hope that cydberthynas waith agos ac ystyrlon the Welsh Government will consider doing rhyngddynt. Gobeithio y gwnaiff what it did previously in developing the Llywodraeth Cymru ystyried gwneud yr hyn model of Rail Cymru and think back to what a wnaeth yn flaenorol wrth ddatblygu model

131 28/11/2012 happened with the fourth option for council Rail Cymru a chofio beth a ddigwyddodd housing. There, the Government helped and gyda’r pedwerydd opsiwn ar gyfer tai cyngor. assisted with the creation of a potential Bryd hynny, aeth y Llywodraeth ati i helpu a model, without tying itself in by actually chynorthwyo i greu model posibl, heb saying, ‘This is a model that will happen’. I ymrwymo ei hun drwy ddatgan, ‘Caiff y appreciate that the Minister does not want to model hwn ei roi ar waith’. Rwy’n predetermine his position before a bidding gwerthfawrogi nad yw’r Gweinidog yn process. awyddus i lunio ei farn cyn proses cynigion.

Rail Cymru could be a radical and innovative Gallai Rail Cymru fod yn gam radical ac move. I believe that it marks a once-in-a- arloesol. Credaf ei fod yn gyfle unigryw i generation opportunity to change for the newid ein gwasanaeth rheilffordd yng better our rail service in Wales. No-one can Nghymru er gwell. Ni all unrhyw un honni pretend that the current franchise model bod y model masnachfraint presennol yn serves the passenger well in either cost or llwyddo i wasanaethu teithwyr o ran cost nac quality. If we do not demand a better service, ansawdd. Oni fynnwn wasanaeth gwell, yr un we will get more of the same. This is an fydd y sefyllfa. Mae hwn yn gyfle inni gael y opportunity to get for ourselves and for the math o wasanaeth y mae pob un ohonom am fare-paying passengers in Wales the sort of ei gael ac yn ei haeddu i ni ein hunain ac i service that we all want and deserve. deithwyr sy’n talu am docynnau yng Nghymru.

Eluned Parrott: I thank the Member for this Eluned Parrott: Diolch i’r Aelod am y ddadl debate and for allowing me to speak in it. hon ac am ganiatáu imi siarad. Fodd bynnag, However, I find myself a little underprepared teimlaf nad wyf wedi paratoi’n ddigonol, ar for it, having made the assumption, based on ôl cymryd yn ganiataol, yn seiliedig ar y teitl, the title, that we were going to talk about y byddem yn trafod modelau cydfuddiannol mutual models for rail operating companies, ar gyfer cwmnïau gweithredu rheilffyrdd, yn rather than a critique of the history of hytrach na beirniadu penderfyniadau privatisation. I will therefore keep my preifateiddio’r gorffennol. Felly, gwnaf rai comments short. sylwadau cryno.

I thank the authors of this report for their Diolch i awduron yr adroddiad hwn am input into the debate. I was not a big gyfrannu at y ddadl. Nid oeddwn wir o blaid supporter of rail privatisation, nor am I a big y penderfyniad i breifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd, fan of the current model. I would welcome a ac nid wyf ychwaith yn gadarn o blaid y co-operative operator entering the market, but model presennol. Byddwn yn croesawu I believe that the primary considerations for ymgais gan weithredwr cydweithredol i choosing a rail operator should be its viability ymuno â’r farchnad, ond credaf mai’r prif in delivering services that meet passengers’ ystyriaethau wrth ddewis gweithredwr needs and value for money for taxpayers and rheilffyrdd yw ei hyfywedd o ran darparu passengers. I thank the Member again for gwasanaethau sy’n diwallu anghenion bringing this debate today. teithwyr a gwerth am arian i drethdalwyr a theithwyr. Diolch i’r Aelod unwaith eto am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon heddiw.

The Minister for Local Government and Y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Communities (Carl Sargeant): I certainly Chymunedau (Carl Sargeant): Diolch yn thank Vaughan Gething for this debate. I wir i Vaughan Gething am y ddadl hon. Rwyf want to see a modern and more effective rail am weld system reilffyrdd fodern a mwy system in Wales. My vision is to make it effeithiol yng Nghymru. Fy ngweledigaeth more accessible so that more of our yw sicrhau ei bod yn fwy hygyrch fel y gall communities have the choice of accessing a mwy o’n cymunedau ddewis defnyddio high-quality yet affordable rail system. system reilffyrdd sydd o ansawdd uchel ond yn fforddiadwy.

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If we are to have a rail system that meets the Er mwyn cael system reilffyrdd sy’n diwallu needs of Wales, our first step must be to anghenion Cymru, yn gyntaf, rhaid inni fod establish clarity on what it is that we want to yn eglur o ran yr hyn rydym am ei wneud â do with it. We know that it serves different system o’r fath. Gwyddom ei bod yn people and different purposes, and we need to gwasanaethu gwahanol bobl a gwahanol make sure that adequate provision is in place ddibenion, ac mae angen inni sicrhau bod to meet all the demands made of it by the darpariaeth ddigonol ar waith i fodloni’r holl society that it serves and to support the ofynion arni gan y gymdeithas a wasanaethir economy. ganddi ac i gefnogi’r economi.

Currently, as the Member quite rightly Ar hyn o bryd, fel y nododd yr Aelod, a pointed out, the Welsh Government is a joint hynny’n gwbl briodol, mae Llywodraeth signatory with the Secretary of State for Cymru a’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Transport to the current Wales and Borders Drafnidiaeth wedi cyd-lofnodi masnachfraint franchise. A new franchise is due in 2018, by bresennol Cymru a’r Gororau. Disgwylir which time a significant proportion of our rail masnachfraint newydd yn 2018, ac erbyn network will have been electrified. Again, hynny bydd cyfran sylweddol o’n many Members in the Chamber have been rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd wedi’i thrydaneiddio. involved in the drive to electrify the network, Unwaith eto, mae sawl Aelod yn y Siambr and I pay tribute to them, too. wedi bod yn rhan o’r ymgyrch i drydaneiddio’r rhwydwaith, a thalaf deyrnged iddynt hwy, hefyd.

As a Government, we are increasingly Fel Llywodraeth, rydym yn dylanwadu’n influencing the future of rail in Wales, and gynyddol ar ddyfodol y rheilffyrdd yng we are working to secure more direct Nghymru, ac yn ceisio sicrhau cyfranogiad involvement in the planning and delivery of a mwy uniongyrchol wrth gynllunio a modern rail network. Members will be aware chyflwyno rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd modern. from previous debates that key decision- Bydd yr Aelodau yn ymwybodol, yn sgîl making powers lie with the UK Government. dadleuon blaenorol, mai Llywodraeth y DU However, we will use the levers that are sy’n meddu ar y pwerau i wneud currently at our disposal to influence the rail penderfyniadau allweddol. Fodd bynnag, network and services in Wales as we begin byddwn yn defnyddio’r dulliau ysgogi sydd the detailed work in advance of 2018. In line ar gael inni ar hyn o bryd i ddylanwadu ar y with our manifesto commitment, we will rhwydwaith a gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd yng examine the case for additional powers to Nghymru wrth inni ddechrau ar y gwaith enable Wales to shape the future of rail here. manwl cyn 2018. Yn unol â’r ymrwymiad yn ein maniffesto, byddwn yn ystyried yr achos dros bwerau ychwanegol i alluogi Cymru i lunio dyfodol ei rheilffyrdd.

We need to consider the options for change Mae angen inni ystyried yr opsiynau ar gyfer very carefully. The legal and funding newid yn ofalus iawn. Mae’r strwythurau structures underpinning the railway industry cyfreithiol a’r strwythurau ariannu sy’n sail have developed in such a way that they are i’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd wedi datblygu yn y very complex in how they relate to each other fath fodd fel eu bod yn gymhleth iawn o ran with regard to funding arrangements, and sut maent yn cysylltu â’i gilydd o ran there are significant issues of risk trefniadau ariannu, ac mae problemau apportionment. I have made it clear to my arwyddocaol o ran dosrannu risg. Rwyf wedi officials that we must get to the root of this datgan yn glir wrth fy swyddogion fod yn complexity and fully understand all the risks rhaid inni fynd at wraidd y cymhlethdod hwn and costs involved. We can be under no a deall yn llawn yr holl risgiau a chostau dan illusion, as changing from the status quo is sylw. Rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol o’r likely to lead to new risks and other costs, ffeithiau, gan fod newid o’r sefyllfa

133 28/11/2012 and we must identify upfront how the risks bresennol yn debygol o arwain at risgiau can be managed and the costs met before we newydd a chostau eraill, a rhaid inni nodi make any new decisions. ymlaen llaw sut y gellir rheoli’r risgiau a thalu’r costau cyn inni wneud unrhyw benderfyniadau newydd.

On Monday, 1 October, I began my call for Ddydd Llun, 1 Hydref, dechreuais alw am evidence on the future of the railways in dystiolaeth ar ddyfodol y rheilffyrdd yng Wales, bringing together rail industry leaders Nghymru, gan ddwyn ynghyd arweinwyr y and experts in a forum where they could diwydiant rheilffyrdd ac arbenigwyr mewn share their expertise with the Government. I fforwm lle y gallent rannu eu harbenigedd will now examine the options for the next gyda’r Llywodraeth. Byddaf yn bwrw ati yn Wales and Borders franchise, including awr i ystyried yr opsiynau ar gyfer profit-seeking and the not-for-dividend masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau, gan models alluded to by my colleague. gynnwys y modelau gwneud elw ac nid-er- difidend y cyfeiriodd fy nghyd-Aelod atynt.

Mick Antoniw: As part of the process, will Mick Antoniw: Fel rhan o’r broses, a gaiff y account be taken of what is probably a fairly newid cymharol sylweddol, credaf, ym marn substantial change in public thinking over the y cyhoedd dros y blynyddoedd ei ystyried, years, namely that the current model is not sef yr ymdeimlad nad yw’r model presennol right, and that some form of not-for-profit yn briodol, a’r ffaith bod rhyw fath o ownership is very much in the public mind? drefniant perchenogaeth nid-er-elw yn It is no longer a left/right sort of issue, but flaenllaw ym meddyliau’r cyhoedd? Nid one that, in the public mind, is of trains and mater chwith/dde mohono mwyach, ond, o transport being a public service again, rather du’r cyhoedd, maent yn awyddus i drenau a than a profit-making business. thrafnidiaeth ddod yn wasanaeth cyhoeddus unwaith eto, yn hytrach na busnes gwneud elw.

Carl Sargeant: I have complied with the Carl Sargeant: Rwyf wedi cydymffurfio â’r manifesto commitment to explore the issue ymrwymiad yn y maniffesto i ystyried y around the not-for-dividend programme. Of rhaglen nid-er-difidend. Wrth gwrs, ni allaf course I cannot prejudge any particular ragfarnu unrhyw fasnachfraint neu fodel franchise or model at this stage, and it is open penodol ar hyn o bryd, a gall unrhyw un to all people to put forward a franchise. I gyflwyno masnachfraint. Rwyf eisoes wedi have already raised with the Department for codi’r ffaith bod angen sicrhau chwarae teg i Transport the issue of a fair level playing bob un sy’n cyflwyno masnachfraint gyda’r field for all franchisees, whether they be not- Adran Drafnidiaeth, boed yn gynnig nid-er- for-dividend or profit seeking. There should difidend neu’n gynnig gwneud elw. Dylid be a fair opportunity for people to bid, rhoi cyfle teg i bobl gyflwyno cynigion, gan because the upfront costs are sometimes fod y costau cychwynnol weithiau’n atal prohibitive for organisations to create the sefydliadau rhag creu’r achos busnes priodol right business case to move forward. I have er mwyn symud ymlaen. Rwyf eisoes wedi already raised that with the Secretary of State codi hynny gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol for Transport. dros Drafnidiaeth.

I am also keen to see Network Rail Rwy’n awyddus hefyd i Network Rail barhau continuing to improve its management of the i wella ei drefniadau ar gyfer rheoli’r infrastructure in Wales, which is another seilwaith yng Nghymru, sy’n rhan bwysig important part. I welcomed the establishment arall. Croesawaf y ffaith bod swydd rheolwr of the Network Rail Wales route manager in llwybr newydd wedi’i chreu gan Network November 2011, and my challenge to the Rail ym mis Tachwedd 2011, a’r her gennyf i managing director of the Wales route since reolwr-gyfarwyddwr llwybr Cymru ers hynny then has been to continue to push for further fu parhau i wthio am fwy o arian a sicrhau

134 28/11/2012 funding and appropriate accountability to the atebolrwydd priodol i Lywodraeth Cymru. Welsh Government. We have a strong Mae gennym gydberthynas gref a gobeithio y relationship and I hope that that will gwnaiff hynny barhau. continue.

We need to build on a long-term plan for rail Mae angen inni adeiladu ar gynllun hirdymor infrastructure in Wales. The current round for ar gyfer seilwaith rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. strategic planning by Network Rail will Bydd y cylch cynllunio strategol presennol dovetail with our refresh of the Wales policy gan Network Rail yn cydweddu â’n planning framework and the new transport hymdrechion i adnewyddu fframwaith plan, which will cover the period beyond cynllunio polisi Cymru a’r cynllun 2015. That will set out the new priorities for trafnidiaeth newydd, a fydd yn cwmpasu’r rail investment across Wales and will inform cyfnod y tu hwnt i 2015. Bydd y cynllun yn our priorities for the integrated transport nodi’r blaenoriaethau newydd ar gyfer services that we aspire to have. buddsoddi mewn rheilffyrdd ledled Cymru a bydd yn llywio ein blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y gwasanaethau trafnidiaeth integredig rydym yn anelu atynt.

There are significant opportunities ahead if Mae cyfleoedd sylweddol ar y gorwel os we consider franchising, electrification, the byddwn yn ystyried rhyddfreinio, securing of new rolling stock, and redefining trydaneiddio, sicrhau cerbydau newydd, ac the Welsh Government’s role in the rail ailddiffinio rôl Llywodraeth Cymru yn y decision-making process. The Member broses o wneud penderfyniadau am y alluded to the many benefits at local or rheilffyrdd. Cyfeiriodd yr Aelod at y community level within that environment in buddiannau niferus ar lefel leol neu Wales, and I am interested to learn more gymunedol o fewn yr amgylchedd hwnnw about that. I am sure that the Member will yng Nghymru, a hoffwn wybod mwy am continue to lobby in that way. We are hynny. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd yr Aelod yn planning for the next rail control period, and I parhau i lobïo yn y ffordd honno. Rydym yn have made it clear that I want to see north cynllunio ar gyfer cyfnod rheoli nesaf y Wales being properly connected to north- rheilffyrdd, ac rwyf wedi datgan yn glir fy west England. I have already met with the mod am weld cyswllt priodol rhwng y Secretary of State for Transport to discuss gogledd a gogledd-orllewin Lloegr. Rwyf that. eisoes wedi cyfarfod â’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Drafnidiaeth i drafod hynny.

There are major challenges in taking this Mae heriau mawr wrth fwrw ymlaen. Fel y forward. As I mentioned earlier, the majority soniais yn gynharach, mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r of the decision making remains with the UK gallu i wneud penderfyniadau yn parhau gyda Government, and any procurement process Llywodraeth y DU o hyd, a rhaid i unrhyw must be fair and must comply with the broses gaffael fod yn deg a chydymffurfio â requirements of European law. I have gofynion cyfraith Ewrop. Rwyf wedi llunio established a programme for work in my rhaglen waith yn fy adran sy’n dwyn ynghyd department that brings together our rail ein hymrwymiadau o ran y rheilffyrdd mewn commitments in a way that is consistent with ffordd sy’n gyson â rhoi’r rhaglen the delivery of the wider programme for lywodraethu ehangach ar waith. Bydd y government. That programme will look at the rhaglen honno yn ystyried y rheilffordd yn ei issues of rail as a whole. For instance, further chyfanrwydd. Er enghraifft, gallai mwy o electrification in Wales could impact on the waith trydaneiddio yng Nghymru effeithio ar cost of the next Wales and Border franchise, gost masnachfraint nesaf Cymru a’r Gororau, and the greater accountability of Network a gallai lefelau atebolrwydd uwch i Network Rail could play a significant part in how Rail chwarae rhan arwyddocaol yn y ffordd y future rail infrastructure investment decisions caiff penderfyniadau buddsoddi yn y are made and affect the appropriate time for seilwaith rheilffyrdd eu gwneud yn y dyfodol

135 28/11/2012 investment and funding opportunities. We ac effeithio ar yr adeg briodol o ran cyfleoedd need to examine the feasibility of innovative buddsoddi ac ariannu. Mae angen inni franchise solutions. We may discover further ystyried dichonoldeb atebion masnachfraint opportunities, such as around the provision of arloesol. Mae’n bosibl y daw cyfleoedd rolling stock. Rolling stock opportunities are pellach i law, er enghraifft o ran darparu another offshoot of any new franchise. cerbydau. Mae cyfleoedd i ddarparu cerbydau yn rhan arall o unrhyw fasnachfraint newydd.

Next year, I intend to consult on the policy Y flwyddyn nesaf, rwy’n bwriadu objectives for rail in Wales so that we start ymgynghori ar yr amcanion polisi ar gyfer y from the right position. Over the coming rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru fel ein bod yn months, there will be further opportunities to dechrau o’r sail gywir. Dros y misoedd nesaf, contribute to our position on the future of rail bydd cyfleoedd pellach i gyfrannu at ein as it develops, and I hope that today safbwynt ar ddyfodol y rheilffyrdd wrth iddo demonstrates our commitment to, and ddatblygu, a gobeithio bod heddiw yn dangos consensus on, establishing a rail industry in ein hymrwymiad a’n consensws o ran sefydlu Wales that is fit for the future and that is, as diwydiant rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru sy’n the Member alludes to in his title, a service addas ar gyfer y dyfodol ac sydd, fel yr for the people of Wales. awgryma’r Aelod yn ei deitl, yn wasanaeth i bobl Cymru.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â today’s proceedings to a close. thrafodion heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.45 p.m. The meeting ended at 5.45 p.m.

Aelodau a’u Pleidiau Members and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour) Antoniw, Mick (Llafur – Labour) Asghar, Mohammad (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour) Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour) Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour) Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour) Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Davies, Byron (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Davies, Keith (Llafur – Labour) Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Davies, Suzy (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Drakeford, Mark (Llafur – Labour) Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Evans, Rebecca (Llafur – Labour) Finch-Saunders, Janet (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) George, Russell (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Gething, Vaughan (Llafur – Labour) Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour) Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour) Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour) Gruffydd, Llyr Huws (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour) Hedges, Mike (Llafur – Labour) Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour) Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)

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James, Julie (Llafur – Labour) Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru Annibynnol – Independent Plaid Cymru) Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour) Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour) Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour) Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour) Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Morgan, Julie (Llafur – Labour) Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour) Parrott, Eluned (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Powell, William (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Price, Gwyn R. (Llafur – Labour) Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Rathbone, Jenny (Llafur – Labour) Rees, David (Llafur – Labour) Roberts, Aled (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Sandbach, Antoinette (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour) Skates, Kenneth (Llafur – Labour) Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour) Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Thomas, Simon (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour) Whittle, Lindsay (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales) Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats) Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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