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Legislative Assembly of Alberta The Speaker: Hon. Member for Edmonton-Castle Downs, do you have another one? Title: Wednesday, March 8, 2006 1:30 p.m. Date: 06/03/08 Mr. Lukaszuk: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. On behalf of our [The Speaker in the chair] Minister of Advanced Education and MLA for Edmonton-Whitemud it’s my pleasure today to introduce to you and through you to head: Prayers members of this Assembly 26 enthusiastic grade 6 students along with their teacher, Ms Colette Coumont, and parent helper Ms Renée The Speaker: Good afternoon. Brown from Archbishop Joseph MacNeil school in the constituency Let us pray. Grant that we the members of our province’s of Edmonton-Whitemud. They’re here today to observe and learn Legislature fulfill our office with honesty and integrity. May our with interest about our government. They are seated in the public first concern be for the good of all our people. Let us be guided by our deliberations this day. Amen. gallery, and I’d ask them all to rise and accept our traditional warm Please be seated. welcome. head: Introduction of Visitors The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. Mr. VanderBurg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a pleasure to rise and introduce to you and through you to everyone here in the Mr. Renner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to introduce to Assembly today 20 special guests from my constituency. The you and through you to all Members of the Legislative Assembly ECHO Society, which stands for Empowering Citizens for Health four individuals who are contributing in a very significant way to and Opportunity, is a wonderful organization that provides rehabili- municipalities in Alberta. These individuals are members of the tation services to Albertans in the communities of Whitecourt, newly established Minister’s Council on Municipal Sustainability. Mayerthorpe, and Fox Creek that have developmental and physical The sustainability of municipalities is a major priority for this disabilities as well as those caused by brain injury. Along with the government. To that end I look forward to continuing our work Minister of Restructuring and Government Efficiency I had the together. pleasure of joining this very vibrant group of Albertans for a photo I want to thank these representatives for coming to the Legislature earlier this afternoon. I’d ask my guests to stand and receive the today. Accompanying the individuals that I will be introducing are traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. several of their key staff members who also are contributing in a significant way to the minister’s council. They’re seated in the Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, it’s a distinct pleasure and honour today to members’ gallery, and I will ask them to rise and accept the warm introduce some dignitaries from the Aga Khan University Hospital welcome of the Assembly after I’ve introduced them. From the city in Nairobi, a nondenominational institution. The education provided of Edmonton Mayor Stephen Mandel; former Member of the at this university hospital is second to none in recognizing men, Legislative Assembly and president of the Alberta Urban Municipal- women, and people of all different ethnic groups and persuasions. ities Association, AUMA, Mr. Bob Hawkesworth; the president of They are meeting today with three of our public organizations – the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Mr. Capital Health, the Alberta Cancer Board, the University of Alberta Don Johnson. And please recognize the mayor of Calgary, Mr. Dave – to create a partnership and relationship to deliver health services Bronconnier. I don’t see him there, although he might be hiding in Nairobi, Kenya. around the podium. I know he’s joining us for meetings later on this In the gallery are Dr. Mushtaq Ahmed, the chief physician at Aga afternoon. Khan University Hospital and the associate dean of Aga Khan University; Galeb Gulam, a senior executive and the chief financial The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Castle Downs. officer at Aga Khan University Hospital in Nairobi; Dr. Farrok Karsan, who is based at the Aga Khan University Hospital in Mr. Lukaszuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, it’s a pleasure for me to introduce a person who is very familiar to most members of Karachi, Pakistan, and is also assisting the Nairobi hospital. It’s this Assembly. I’m sure you hold him in memory as well, Mr. wonderful to go on the web and see what they are doing in Pakistan Speaker. He has made many of our debates in this Chamber very as well. From Capital Health in Edmonton very familiar faces: colourful. He was my seatmate and officemate and sat in this Allaudin Merali, the executive vice-president and chief financial Chamber from 2001 to 2004. That’s Mr. Brent Rathgeber, former officer; and one of my personal favourites, vice-president Brian MLA for Edmonton-Calder. I would ask him to rise and receive the Hlus. Would our guests please rise and receive the warm welcome traditional warm welcome of our Assembly. of the House. head: Introduction of Guests The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East.

The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Ms Pastoor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to introduce my guest, and I have to assume that he might be sitting behind me because I Mr. Stevens: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of the Minister of can’t see him, so I’ll go ahead. I’d like to introduce to you and Education it’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to through you an Albertan who has cared very deeply and has spent members of the Assembly some of the very best and brightest inordinate amounts of his personal time working on the plight of students in all of Edmonton, 64 grade 6 students from Blessed Kateri those in continuing care, and I’d ask for the traditional warm elementary school, located in Edmonton-Mill Creek, who are welcome of this home – House. I’ve been here too long. My guest accompanied by their teachers Ray Brooks, Robert Burghardt, and is Robert Warden. Darlene Payne. I’d ask them to please now rise and receive the Thank you. traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. 284 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. immense significance of today. Expressing this importance is a quote often attributed to a great Chinese leader, who said, “Women Mrs. Mather: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a pleasure to rise and hold up half the sky.” It is a call for us to respect and value women introduce to you and through you to all hon. Members of this here and around the globe. Legislative Assembly a group of concerned daycare owners. They In Alberta a number of events will honour this special occasion: are with us today in the gallery to show their support for the national a candle-lighting ceremony in Banff, a documentary film presenta- daycare program. I would like to ask them to please rise as I tion in Calgary, an International Women’s Day round-table at the introduce them: Suzanne Vokurka, Gillian Jobs, Edda Hunter, University of Alberta women’s centre, a celebration dinner hosted Connie Nye, Zsolt Maraitar, Tammy Adams, Ellie McEvoy, and Liz by the Edson and District Community Learning Society, and a Barker. Please join me in extending the traditional warm welcome discussion on international perspectives on women and leadership in of the Assembly. Lethbridge. Mr. Speaker, there are many more events around the province and more going on than simple celebrations. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Canadians will mark the 25th anniversary of the United Nations convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against Mr. Chase: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is a pleasure to women. This international treaty pledges equal rights, opportunities, rise and introduce to you and through you to all hon. Members of and responsibilities for men and women. Alberta will join other this Legislative Assembly a group of concerned daycare owners. Canadian governments in New Brunswick this September for a They are with us today in the gallery to show their support for the national meeting to discuss women’s issues, including the United national daycare program. I would like to ask them to rise as I Nations treaty. This will be the 25th anniversary of our national collaboration. introduce them: Janet Albury from Wee Care Family Day Homes in Mr. Speaker, on this International Women’s Day I ask members Fort Saskatchewan, Lovena Satdeo from Edmonton Family Day of this House to join me and communities around the province in Homes, Debbie Pageé of the North Edmonton Family Day Home celebrating, acknowledging, and supporting the achievements of Agency, Natasha McCartney from the town of Beaumont, Natalie women in Alberta and around the world. Wezler, also from the town of Beaumont, Charlene Ellison of Thank you, sir. Northalta Family Day Homes out of Edmonton, and another person from the family day homes, Barbara Raliszur. Please join me in The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre on behalf of extending the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. the Official Opposition. 1:40 The Speaker: The hon. leader of the third party. Ms Blakeman: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to respond to the ministerial statement on Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’m delighted International Women’s Day. I’ve reviewed some of the statements I’ve made in this House about March 8. I’ve talked about the status today to introduce to you and through you to this Assembly Kelly of aboriginal women, violence against women, child care, women in Sloan. Kelly is the executive director of the YWCA. Along with poverty, funding for women’s shelters, operational funding for other important work, the YWCA Edmonton supports the YWCA of sexual assault centres. Today in the paper I read about the Two Guyana with resources and expertise. Locally the YWCA Edmonton Steps Forward, One Step Back movement, in which women seem runs the nonpartisan one woman, one vote program, that encourages perennially locked. All that seems a bit grim. women to run for office, to vote, and to work on political campaigns. I notice that in a newsletter from the peer program at the Women’s We are pleased to have Kelly join us today, on International Centre of Calgary in Bridgeland in their most recent article they talk Women’s Day, and I commend the work that she and her organiza- about International Women’s Day: people recognize the day to tion do to empower and aid women in all facets of their lives. I demonstrate their intention to keep fighting. And, I would add, to would now ask that she rise and receive the traditional warm celebrate, which the minister did so nicely. welcome of this Assembly. As the minister noted, the United Nations convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women was The Speaker: Hon. members, as a footnote today with the presence ratified by Canada 25 years ago. From this flowed legal and human of the mayor of the city of Edmonton, this canopy that surrounds the rights foundations like the Canada Human Rights Act and the Speaker’s podium was a gift from the people of Edmonton to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Both have been integral to Legislative Assembly of Alberta and the province of Alberta on the improving the status of women in Canada and in Alberta. As we 75th anniversary of the province of Alberta in 1980. We’re now have learned, a gain in status for one group like a rising tide lifts all arriving at the 100th anniversary of the Legislative Assembly of boats. So, for example, maternity provisions protecting job security Alberta, and I’m pleased to advise all members that His Worship is for women evolve into parental leave, which benefits all of us. I working with us on another project that will enhance the quality of believe these far-sighted legal tools have protected and empowered this room and this Chamber as we go through 2006. women. I’m delighted when a young woman looks blankly at me when I talk about a time before the maintenance enforcement head: Ministerial Statements program or having no protection from harassment in the workplace or losing one’s job because a woman got married or was pregnant. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Community Development. The Official Opposition continues to work on issues of economic equality and opportunity. I note that the recent StatsCan report talks International Women’s Day about women continuing to be clustered in lower paying, pink ghetto Mr. Mar: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For the past 28 years Canada jobs, making 71 per cent of what their male counterparts do even has joined the world on March 8 to commemorate International though – and this is a success story – women are exceeding men in Women’s Day. As we all in this Assembly consider the impact that literary skills and continuing to increase in achieving university women have had on our lives, we should come to understand the degrees. March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 285

I look around this Assembly, Mr. Speaker, and I note that the 1:50 numbers of women here are going down, not up. What a comment The Speaker: For the hon. Member for Cardston-Taber-Warner to that Rwanda, Mozambique, and Lesotho have a better percentage of participate, we’ll need unanimous consent. elected women than we do. Much to celebrate. Much to do. Happy International Women’s [Unanimous consent granted] Day. The Speaker: The hon. member. The Speaker: Will hon. members allow the hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona to participate on behalf of the third party? Mr. Hinman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Every year citizens around the world commemorate International Women’s Day. It is one day [Unanimous consent granted] a year that we recognize the contribution of our women to our society as a whole. Dr. Pannu: Mr. Speaker, thank you, and I want to thank my As an Albertan I am proud that our province was one of the first colleagues for this opportunity for me to respond on behalf of my in the British Commonwealth to give suffrage to women. But even caucus and our leader to the minister’s excellent statement today. before that women led the fight that men seemed to shy away from. For over 30 years we have been observing and celebrating Interna- Our women in the 1800s and early 1900s were leaders in the fight to tional Women’s Day. Over that time women have taken important clean up society across Canada. Their moral character and social steps forward. Yesterday Statistics Canada released a report conscience helped to define a generation. showing that women are closing the gap in postsecondary education During both World War I and II women went into the workforce and workplace participation. Unfortunately, the report also points to help contribute to the war effort in Canada. Without these great to a continuing pattern of women earning lower wages than men and individuals sacrificing their time and talent, we would not have been having a high risk of living in poverty. This discrepancy is particu- able to rise up and continue the fight. After World War II their larly clear for visible minority women. Yesterday the report found strength continued to grow in the face of societal changes. As that minority women, although they have on the average better women across the world began to evaluate their place in society, education, are earning somewhat less than their nonvisible counter- they once again made great changes to how our world works. Let parts. me give you some examples of some amazing Alberta women. Women face more immediate threats to their well-being, Mr. Annie Gale first got politically active when she realized that Speaker. Last year women’s shelters in Alberta accommodated people were forced to buy inferior vegetables from grocers who had close to 6,000 women and close to 5,500 children who were contracted with B.C. and did not sell Alberta products. Her escaping violent home lives. Sadly, shelters were unable to annoyance over this single issue grew into a life of service in public. accommodate another 5,150 woman and their 3,710 children Her activism in Calgary society would eventually lead to her running because they were full. and winning a spot on the Calgary city council. Elected in 1917, Like for too many Albertans, domestic violence is a particularly Annie would be the first woman elected as a municipal councillor in personal issue for me. This year marks the 20th anniversary of the the British Empire and the first woman to serve as an acting mayor. murder of my youngest sister at the hands of her husband here in Ethel Knight Wilson was one who changed Alberta. Ethel was the Edmonton. How many of us are trying to help loved ones, friends, second woman named to the provincial cabinet. As a Social Credit families to escape abusive and terrifying family relationships? How MLA and minister of labour she did a great deal to help workers in many more women and children suffer violence anonymously? We our province. Ethel also brought forward the legislation which would be remiss if we didn’t also pause on this day to remember the created the Women’s Bureau of Culture and Information. She was Edmonton women who were murdered because their work in certainly a great woman in Alberta. prostitution made them easy targets. Beyond the more public roles are women as the keystones to our I’m also deeply troubled by the growing problem of early families. Their contribution to creating and maintaining families is sexualization of young girls in our province and in our country. A just as important as any other contribution they gave. In my own life culture that equates youth with beauty and pressures girls to act as women, especially my mother, have played a strong role in shaping women exposes those girls to serious psychological problems down and forming my life. My mother is one of my biggest fans, and her the road. I applaud the courage and contribution of Léa Clermont contribution to my success in politics and life is immeasurable. Dion, a high school student in Quebec, for initiating a public debate In closing, I would like to thank our women. I know they’ll on this issue. continue to lead, shape, and help our society grow into one that I began my statement by praising the accomplishments women brings respect and tolerance through their unique caring and loving have made, and I want to emphasize the importance of these gains. nature. But major challenges still lie ahead. Lower wages and violence Thank you. against women and girls are symptoms of a larger problem, Mr. Speaker. As long as women are not full and equal participants in the head: Oral Question Period workplace, in boardrooms, and in Legislative Assemblies, we will only be able to bandage over serious problems. Let’s pledge to work The Speaker: First Official Opposition main question. The hon. together as members of this Assembly to remove the barriers that Leader of the Official Opposition. still exist to women’s full and equal participation in social, eco- nomic, and political lives. Health Care Reform Public Consultation To conclude, Mr. Speaker, I invite all Albertans to join us in Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the 1990s this government celebrating International Women’s Day, celebrating past advances, pushed through electricity deregulation without proper consultation, and committing to fighting for justice and equality for all women. and we all know the results of that. We know how the public feels. Thank you very much. Now this same government is pushing through a policy on health 286 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006 care with only a 30-day consultation process, in which there are now The Speaker: Second Official Opposition question. The hon. just 23 days remaining. My questions are to the Premier. Will the Member for Calgary-Mountain View. Premier agree to an all-party televised debate focusing on his health care reforms? [some applause] Coal-bed Methane Drilling Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday at town hall Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I didn’t know they were applauding for me. meetings in Camrose and Pigeon Lake several hundred rural [interjections] Albertans spoke out about the impact on their lives of coal-bed An Hon. Member: We will if you agree. methane, and the Official Opposition listened. These hardworking Albertans are experiencing water contamination and water shortage, The Speaker: If everybody would speak through the chair, it would and many are forced to choose between safe water and income from really work. oil companies. Without adequate regulations oil companies and landowners are increasingly being pitted against each other. To the Mr. Klein: Well, I do agree. In fact, not only are we debating the Premier: with some reputable hydrogeologists and industry situation before the television cameras during question period, if – expressing uncertainty about the impacts of shallow coal-bed if – the proposals are brought forward, there will be ample time to methane fracturing on groundwater, is it not prudent to pause to debate this situation in front of all the television cameras. I don’t consult with scientists, companies, and citizens until we know the know if they’ll be on or not. I think that they were for the Bill 11 extent of the damage to our vital groundwater? debate. I stand to be corrected. I think I’m right, because it was of such public interest. I would hope that the Speaker would indulge Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it – and I’ll have the hon. the hon. Leader of the Official Opposition and keep the television Minister of Energy elaborate – we just announced two initiatives cameras on during debate, if it in fact takes place, of the appropriate critical to protecting the precious resource of water. The first is legislation that will be brought forward. But right now we’re mandatory baseline testing of well water before drilling for coal-bed debating in front of the television cameras. methane. This will help us monitor water quality accurately. The second is the mapping of Alberta’s groundwater so that we know The Speaker: The hon. leader. exactly where our groundwater is located. Thirdly – I would add a third – is that there is a complete review of any coal-bed methane Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the Premier: will the extraction process or application by the Alberta Energy and Utilities Premier attend a town hall meeting organized by the Liberal Board. The hon. member and any other citizen, of course, is invited opposition to fit his schedule – any time, any place – to hear what to intervene if he or she feels that their water is being compromised. Albertans are saying about health care? Will he come out and meet Mr. Speaker, I don’t have the letter, but I’d be glad to table it at the public? some future date, from one of the companies, MGV, I believe, very active in coal-bed methane extraction, saying that one of the Mr. Klein: As much as I wouldn’t like to attend, Mr. Speaker, the individuals to whom the hon. member alluded has been spoken to by hon. Minister of Health and Wellness has laid out a public consulta- the company and seems to be satisfied. The letter also indicates that tion process. It is a government process. We’re responsible for the situation relative to contamination of his water supply occurred fulfilling our duties in the best way we see fit. The process that has a long time before coal-bed methane was extracted. been tabled and outlined by the hon. minister is the process that we 2:00 are going to follow. Now, there are a lot of suggestions relative to the process for public consultation. I’m sorry, and I apologize to the The Speaker: The hon. member. hon. Leader of the Official Opposition, but I’m going to stick with the process laid out by my minister. Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given that the coal-bed methane has been going on for five years, Mr. Premier, will you The Speaker: The hon. leader. acknowledge the rural concerns and honour your commitment to halt new coal-bed methane development in the Horseshoe Canyon Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then to the minister: will the formation? minister herself or will she urge her colleagues to attend health care town hall meetings organized by the Liberal opposition – we’ll Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I have never given a commitment to halt organize just a few for you – and report back to her caucus what she coal-bed methane. I have given a commitment that if the Minister or they hear? Will you attend a town hall meeting? of Environment discovers that coal-bed methane is indeed contributing to contamination of water supplies, then that activity Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker. I will certainly report back to our will be suspended pending a complete resolution of the problem. caucus what we hear. We have actually booked a fairly full schedule right now. I know some MLAs have individually booked meetings The Speaker: The hon. member. in their particular constituencies. I have meetings this Saturday in St. Paul and in Bonnyville. I am arranging a meeting in Hinton. Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Lacking any scientific There are other centres that we’re planning to go to in all corners of investigation, it’s going to be impossible to prove that now after five the province. So I could not make a definite commitment, looking years. at my own schedule and meetings we’re arranging. To the Minister of Energy. Until now the EUB has been relying So, Mr. Speaker, although it’s a kind and generous offer, I would on industry to do baseline water testing before drilling. How can urge the opposition to bring those views from those meetings Albertans be satisfied that the EUB is protecting the public interest? forward, and they will constitute part of the material we’re gathering from the public. Mr. Melchin: Mr. Speaker, the Energy and Utilities Board is the March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 287 one that’s been setting a very rigorous standard for the industry for The Speaker: Well, I think you’ve had a question, hon. member. decades. I’ve got to still clarify that we try and typify coal-bed methane as if it’s a new activity when it’s not. This drilling activity Ms Pastoor: . . . when will that be considered? in shallow wells occurs in thousands of wells if not hundreds of thousands of wells across the province, with decades of experience Mrs. Fritz: Well, Mr. Speaker, we’ve had this discussion, the hon. in managing water – saline, aquifers, fresh, potable water – member across the way and myself, as recently as two weeks ago. fracturing techniques, all of those issues. The industry has a I was looking forward to the bill being here in the Assembly. I substantive amount of evidence, information, baseline information, apologize; I’ve been very busy. I haven’t had an opportunity to read and the like. It’s not in the absence of a very solid foundation with the bill yet, but I am looking forward to that as well. which this activity is going forward. That is the first In our discussions the member knows that what she has put misrepresentation of what’s happening with this coal-bed methane. forward in regard to having a commissioner in the Assembly, Mr. Secondly, each of these individual applications – and he mentions Speaker, reporting through you for long-term care is one approach. Horseshoe Canyon. That’s in a seam where there’s virtually no We’ve had other approaches in that regard, and I’m going to water. So even in that it isn’t a matter that there is even a water evaluate all of them, and I would involve that member at that time extraction issue. As to whether it’s affecting other zones or aquifers, even in making that type of decision. the evidence thus far does not suggest anything of the like. The Speaker: The hon. member. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. Ms Pastoor: Thank you. I think that my point is: could we look at this as being actually legislated? Would that be looked at or just as Continuing Care Standards a regulation? Ms Pastoor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Albertans have been tirelessly advocating for improvements in the long-term care system. Mrs. Fritz: Mr. Speaker, I am looking forward to that debate when Jean Warden died last year of malnutrition, dehydration, and the member’s bill comes forward. infection in a for-profit facility. This highlights the current crisis in long-term care and the desperate need to legislate standards of care Health Care Reform Public Consultation and ensure that enforcement mechanisms are in place. My questions (continued) would be to the Premier. Mr. Premier, why isn’t this government legislating clear, enforceable provincial standards of care since the Mr. Mason: The Alberta Liberal leader thinks the Premier is a great Auditor General and the MLA task force have submitted their man, a colossus even. We in the NDP opposition have a different reports? view, Mr. Speaker. We see a Premier who wants to ram through the most far-reaching changes to our medicare system in 40 years Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, that is under review. I’ll have the hon. without a mandate to do so and without properly consulting minister responsible for seniors respond. I don’t know if it’s the Albertans. My question is to the Premier. Why is the government minister of health or the Minister of Seniors and Community acting in such a high-handed and undemocratic manner by denying Supports. I think it’s Seniors and Community Supports. Albertans the opportunity to present their views at a set of public hearings around the province, not just milk and cookies with the The Speaker: The hon. minister. minister?

Mrs. Fritz: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to respond Mr. Klein: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to first of all thank the to this question. You know that over the past year we have worked hon. Leader of the Official Opposition for his very kind words. very hard on this issue of long-term care following the Auditor’s Mr. Speaker, there is a public consultation process laid out, as I report, and especially the member asking this question knows that mentioned. In fact, I understand that the hon. Minister of Health and because she was a part of the continuing care report along with two Wellness went out on the steps of the Legislature today when one of of my colleagues that reported just recently with 45 the ND members was about to speak and invited members in for a recommendations. The Minister of Health and Wellness and I consultation, then went back out and invited another 15 back in. responded very quickly through the third quarter, which we had here Now, that to me shows that the minister is willing to listen to all in the Assembly just this past week. In the third quarter there was sides, even sides orchestrated by the NDs and the Liberals. an allocation of $36 million to meet the urgent needs that were identified in these 45 recommendations: $26 million to Health and Mr. Mason: Mr. Speaker, why does the Premier believe that the Wellness, $10 million within my ministry. minister inviting some protesters in for milk and cookies is a Mr. Speaker, I can tell you this. With the budget coming up in the substitute for a real consultation process that actually goes out to next few weeks, we can look forward to a continuation in long-term where people live in this province – in Mayerthorpe, in Medicine care in meeting the needs. Hat, in St. Paul, and in Wainwright – and hold public, open, and transparent hearings? That’s the point: no more closed-door The Speaker: The hon. member. meetings.

Ms Pastoor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do appreciate that answer, Mr. Klein: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, I don’t know but I would also like to suggest that this government take this issue specifically if the hon. minister is going to go to the locations so seriously that they would commit to establishing an independent indicated by the hon. member, but certainly she plans to go on the office, like in my Bill 205, which is calling for a continuing care road and meet with constituencies throughout Alberta. commissioner to solve the problems with enforcement and I’ll have the hon. member respond. accountability. My question would be . . . 288 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006

The Speaker: Perhaps we’ll get it in the third one. The Speaker: The hon. member. The hon. leader. Mr. Hinman: Thank you. To the Minister of Energy: will you Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Well, given that protect Alberta groundwater and aquifers by extending the no- many Albertans, including a number of contenders for the Tory drilling or fracking zone to one mile within water aquifers until the leadership, have told this government that they need to take the time baseline hydrogeological investigations and reports are in? to properly consult Albertans in open public hearings, why has the Premier decided to short-circuit the democratic process instead? Mr. Melchin: Mr. Speaker, you know, the Energy and Utilities 2:10 Board has already looked at this issue. They came out with a directive to ensure the protection of the aquifers, as so mentioned. Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I take exception to the suggestion that Yes, there is a great interest by industry, by the regulator, and by we’re short-circuiting the situation and the public hearing process. everybody to ensure that that happens. They have already put out We promised that there would be public consultations. Those directives that there are certain procedures that must occur if it’s consultations are taking place. We don’t want this, please forbid, to within the shallow – so it’s 200 meters that is suggested. Those are become a circus. We want the hearings and the public consultation the ones that have the right degree of expertise to measure and process to be as impartial and nonpolitical as possible, quantify those kinds of questions, and they’ve appropriately said. notwithstanding the attempt by the Liberals and the NDs to make it very political, and we want to hear from Albertans as to what their The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul, ideas might be to, one, improve accessibility and choice in health followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. care for Albertans, and two, bring health care costs in line with the rate of inflation. Police and Peace Officer College The Speaker: The hon. Member for Cardston-Taber-Warner, Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In October followed by the hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. Alberta Solicitor General and Public Security issued a request for proposal to build a centralized training centre for police and peace Energy and Utilities Board officers. I understand that 30 communities, including two from my constituency, submitted proposals to the department in December Mr. Hinman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Two of the most important things in our life are our health and our environment. Through and now are anxiously awaiting word on the successful bid. My recklessness both are easily compromised, and it is often difficult if questions are to the Solicitor General and Minister of Public not impossible to repair the damage. The fastest way to progress is Security. Can the minister provide us with an update on the status through learning from the mistakes we and others make. Over the of this project? past years we have allowed the separation of mineral and surface rights to the detriment of landowners. To the Premier: in order to The Speaker: The hon. minister. protect and treat landowners fairly, will you allow elected representation on the EUB board to make them more accountable to Mr. Cenaiko: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As the hon. the citizens of this province? member mentioned, our department is looking to develop a single- site facility in the province of Alberta as Alberta is one of the only Mr. Klein: On the AEUB that is a very interesting suggestion. I’ve provinces left in Canada without a facility of this nature. We’re often said publicly to the media: for every good suggestion there is looking at a facility to try to improve the quality of training, ensuring a bad suggestion. In other words, for every action there is an equal that the standards are superior and, of course, that it would provide and opposite and often negative reaction. If the hon. member will training for the roughly 8,000 police and peace officers in the send over his suggestion, we’ll consider it, but also we’ll consider province. the cons. I don’t know what they might be at this particular time, Our department did receive an overwhelming response to the RFP but I’m sure that as we discuss a policy change around the caucus that was due in the middle of this past December. We received 30 table, there will be plenty of concerns raised. tremendous proposals with 42 different land parcel considerations within them. Due to the high number of submissions, Mr. Speaker, The Speaker: The hon. member. we need the opportunity to analyze each one in great detail, and we’ll not be able to shortlist in the time period that was specified in Mr. Hinman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the Premier: the RFP. We did send out a letter to those 30 municipalities would you consider equal representation before the EUB board and requesting an extension on the proposal till May 15, and we’re review the compensation that landowners are entitled to when they hoping that we should have the decision made before the middle of go before the EUB board and who they can hire and pay to represent May. their interest? The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Klein: I really don’t know. I understand that the Minister of Human Resources and Employment is working on that particular Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Again to the situation, and maybe I’ll have him respond. same minister: can the minister please tell us what the communities can expect to happen between this time and May 15? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Cenaiko: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, first of all, I want to Mr. Cardinal: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I did attend a thank those communities for their interest and their support in this number of meetings with that particular concern, and it’s under project as we move forward. The review committee will continue to discussion right now. analyze and review all of the proposals to evaluate them against the March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 289 criteria that were identified in the RFP. The short list will then be The Speaker: The hon. member. developed, and the review committee will begin interviewing and going out and actually doing physical site assessments in the Ms Blakeman: Thank you. Again to the minister of health: can the communities. Again, as I mentioned, the expected deadline for the minister explain how introducing private insurance for some surgical site to be selected is May 15, and obviously we hope to have that procedures will increase access for the average Albertan when those done prior to then. There still is a lot of work to be done. Each one who have been on waiting lists of hip and knee surgeries for months has to be measured on its own merits, yet using the same or years will not even be able to purchase insurance for their measurement criteria to be fair to all of those 30 communities. procedure?

The Speaker: The hon. member? The Speaker: The hon. minister. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre, followed by the hon. 2:20 Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, when we first talked about this health Health Care Reform policy framework, we didn’t talk about Alberta introducing private insurance. We talked, rather, about reducing or removing the Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are just 23 days left prohibition on private insurance that exists here in Alberta and in in this government’s proposed consultation period on the health four other provinces. We note that our neighbours to the east, policy framework, yet they are asking Albertans to react to a Saskatchewan, do not have a prohibition against private insurance. proposal with very little substance and around which the minister Simply put, in this document we are not talking about instituting or has admitted, and I quote: the detailed discussion is not there. End changing the mix of any insurance program or any other kind of quote. The public needs solid information, and the government is funding mechanism. We are talking about policies for delivery of not providing any detail or evidence. My questions are to the care and looking at some options. Minister of Health and Wellness. Is the minister ever releasing the detailed discussion of the health plan so Albertans can react to The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne, followed something of substance? by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning.

Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, last July we put on the Alberta Health web Highway 43 page 13 initiatives that were health policy directives that we’ve been following through on, everything from looking at how we spend Mr. VanderBurg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Highway 43 runs money on drugs to health policies and looking at enhancement of through my constituency, and traffic volumes, especially truck goods and services: a variety of strategies. We indicated and have traffic, continue to increase. Some sections of highway 43 are yet to received Albertans’ responses to that. We also visited last summer be twinned and are in a poor state of repair, and some sections are all the health regions and gathered information about things that very dangerous. My questions are all for the Minister of would constitute worthy policy directions to advance new health Infrastructure and Transportation. When will these sections of this strategies. Putting patients first: there are several ways that that can highway through my constituency of Whitecourt-Ste. Anne be be done. In the context of this framework we hope regional health finally completed? authorities respond, and we’re looking for Albertans’ responses so that we know what their thoughts are about the broad principles that The Speaker: The hon. minister. we’ve provided. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The very quick, The Speaker: The hon. member. short answer is that we are looking at the fall of 2007. There have been 376 kilometres of this road twinned. We’re moving ahead with Ms Blakeman: Thank you. Again to the same minister: can the this. Over the past five to six years there has been a huge amount minister explain how keeping public costs to the rate of inflation twinned. We currently are expecting to have 19 kilometres more without taking into consideration the growth in population will result twinned this upcoming year, leaving 37 kilometres yet to be twinned in anything other than reduced services? in the year 2007, and we truly hope that it will be done in the fall of 2007. Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, I think that the hon. member opposite has hit upon one of the very difficult problems that governments, I The Speaker: The hon. member. would say not only nationally but internationally, are wrestling with. We have been very fortunate in Alberta to have sufficient funds to Mr. VanderBurg: Well, thank you. Again to the same minister. advance our health policies and our health strategies beyond what The year 2007 is two construction periods away, two complete we’ve seen in any other part of Canada, but we recognize that to seasons. Is there anything that could be done to speed up this keep health care sustainable, we have to look at other ways of process? controlling the costs that we have in place for health care, whether that is the kind of initiatives that we’re looking at in consolidating The Speaker: The hon. minister. drug purchases or whether we make choices that are different in terms of new technologies that come on board. These policies talk Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s a very about a variety of principles where people could look at whether interesting issue that we have here. Unfortunately or fortunately, choice and access could be delivered in other ways and get depending on how you look at it, part of highway 43 goes through Albertans’ responses before we go into further work on some of a First Nations reserve. We are having a very difficult time them that just may not be acceptable. We’re hoping, however, that negotiating that particular amount of land so that we can have the they will be. twinned road through that part of the reserve. Normally what would 290 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006 occur in any other place in Alberta is that we would have the ability Mr. Backs: The WCB does report to the minister. to use the Expropriation Act, but because it is on reserve lands, we A second question to the Minister of Human Resources and do not have the ability to expropriate that land, and therefore we Employment. When will the minister direct the WCB to settle the have to negotiate. tens of thousands of long-standing, contentious claims so that these In essence, Mr. Speaker, what we’re left with is the ability to injured workers do not continue to be a huge drain on our public either (a) come up with a negotiation or (b) plan a whole new route health care? around the reserve. We would much sooner go with the existing route, which is through the reserve. It makes much more sense, Mr. Cardinal: Mr. Speaker, that particular area, of course, has been would be much more beneficial for the people living on the reserve dealt with in this House for a long, long period of time. Working as well as for everyone else. with the workers’ compensation, of course, we’ve tried to improve But through to the hon. member, Mr. Speaker, it is a critically the existing appeals process that is in place and being used. The important issue, and we will do what is needed to ensure that process that’s in place will allow that for any applicant or any file highway 43 is completely twinned. that’s in existence, any time you have new information, you can bring that file forward, and we’ll deal with it. The Speaker: The hon. member. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. VanderBurg: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given that soaring construction costs and lack of labour for contractors are Mr. Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary to the causing many disruptions in projects throughout northern Alberta, minister of health. Has the ministry of health estimated the cost to what impact does this have on the completion of this route? public health care caused by WCB not dealing with unsolved, unfunded, long-standing claims by these tens of thousands of injured The Speaker: The hon. minister. workers, all of whom access the public system?

Dr. Oberg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last year we saw an Ms Evans: No. unprecedented 25 per cent increase in the costs of our projects. That obviously has been taken into great consideration in what projects The Speaker: Hon. Minister of Health and Wellness, did you want we do, what we’re able to do. to respond? In specific respect to highway 43 the biggest single issue we have is quite simply enabling us to receive the land from the negotiations. Ms Evans: I did. I said no. The price certainly is an issue, but that’s not the biggest issue here. As I alluded to, it’s obtaining the land that we need to build that The Speaker: Oh, you did. Sorry. That was very quick. Brevity is road, and we will do it. There’s a preferential way to do it, but there good. is another way that we could do it as well. The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Fort. Land Expropriation Mr. Cao: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. A constituent of mine Workers’ Compensation brought to my attention the following facts. The government of Mr. Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Workers’ Compensation Alberta expropriated good farmland north of Calgary. The Board contracts for private health care services outside of medicare. landowner was given $45,000 per acre, which included a sizable This is a costly system, and it does not give injured workers choice home, a dive pool, three garages, and a western wear business and of treatment or doctors. My question is to the Minister of Human barn. In comparison, the Calgary regional health authority Resources and Employment. With planned health care reforms will purchased empty, raw land for the new hospital for $85,000 per acre. the WCB maintain its expensive private contracts or will it return to My question is to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure and the public health care system or will there be some new WCB third Transportation. How does he explain the difference in price of those way allowing choice? two parcels?

Mr. Cardinal: Mr. Speaker, there are about three questions in that The Speaker: The hon. minister. question. To start with, I think we need some clarification because one of the things with workers’ compensation is that we do have Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Quite simply, what legislation that there is to be workers’ compensation in Alberta, and we do is do the fair market appraised value any time land that’s good. The other part we need to know is that the workers’ expropriation is undertaken. There is a difference in what occurred compensation program is funded 100 per cent by the employers and for the south Calgary hospital. That land was not expropriated. It also administered 100 per cent by the employers. We do participate was involved in a deal with the old Bow Valley site. The city took in one area of the appeals process, and even that particular process over the Bow Valley site, and they subsequently turned over some is funded by the workers’ compensation with their private dollars. of the land in south Calgary to us for the site of the hospital. The workers’ compensation legislation has been in place since 1918, So, Mr. Speaker, quite simply, the land was not expropriated. We way, way before the Canada Health Act was introduced; therefore, have a policy in my department that it is always fair market value that process was always exempt for a number of reasons. One of that is what is being paid to the particular person when land is them is to ensure that when an employee is injured, access to expropriated. doctors’ facilities is as quick as possible so they can go back to work. The Speaker: The hon. member. March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 291

Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My first supplemental question supposed to know whether it makes good budgetary sense to build goes to the same minister. Why, my constituent asks, was the land the northeast Calgary ring road as a P3 when the minister is refusing for the hospital not expropriated based on the expropriated price of to disclose the comparative cost of using conventional public the land in the north? financing to build this section of the road?

The Speaker: The hon. minister. The Speaker: The hon. minister.

Dr. Oberg: Thank you, again, Mr. Speaker. Obviously, in whatever Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I really feel that I community we have in Alberta, there is a significant difference must address the hon. member’s preamble. The difference between between where the land is situated. Land that is situated on the west the $300 million and the $478 million public-sector comparator on of the city is not necessarily worth the same as what is located on the the Anthony Henday was a change in scope. The public-sector east of the city. Therefore, we undertake fair market value, which comparator was $478 million, with the bid coming in at $493 is an assessment through the estimators, through the real estate million. I will also draw the Assembly’s attention to my previous agents of what the value of that land actually is. We subsequently, answer, when I stated that the cost of construction went up 25 per then, expropriate it according to the value of the land. cent last year. By us doing the Anthony Henday as a P3, we saved Quite simply, Mr. Speaker, through to the hon. member, the value the taxpayers of Alberta 25 per cent, or roughly $125 million. of the two parcels of land, where they sat and physical location, was In direct response to the hon. member’s question, the reason that significantly different, which accounted for the difference in price. the public comparator is not being brought forward until one month before the bids are opened is so that no one can say that we have The Speaker: The hon. member. been gerrymandering the bids, that no one can say that we were gerrymandering the price. That bid on the public-sector comparator Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My last supplemental question will be given to the Department of Justice, and they will all be is to the same minister. What factual assurance can the minister opened at the same time. The three bids that will be from the private provide that the owner of the land parcel in the north of Calgary was sector as well as our public-sector comparator will be opened at fairly treated and our public money was not overspent for the land exactly the same time. in the south of Calgary? Mr. Martin: Mr. Speaker, to come back: won’t the minister admit The Speaker: The hon. minister. that the real reason for keeping secret – it is very unusual to do this 2:30 – the comparative costs of public financing to build the northeast Calgary road is because the minister knows full well that this will be Dr. Oberg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, it’s a very interesting more expensive, just as the Henday was? That’s why he’s keeping tale that occurred in the land in north Calgary. We were trying to quiet. He got burned last time. negotiate with the particular owner of the land for two years, and we could not come to a negotiated price. Subsequently, we went and Dr. Oberg: Actually, Mr. Speaker, that’s absolutely false. That is expropriated the land, and a price was established. That price was not true. Quite simply, everyone in this Assembly knows that if we roughly $45,000 an acre. What then occurred is that this particular went out and said that a project is going to be worth $500 million, I case was taken to court. In the court case the judge actually stated will guarantee to you that we will not get a bid under $500 million. that the value was a fair market value, but he then ordered us to pay We are going to bring out that public-sector comparator, which is above the fair market value for the movement of the houses and going to be our comparator on the work that is being done, a month some of the inconvenience. In general, what that person actually before. We will have it sealed, and it will be opened at the same received was very close to right around a million dollars for the land time. The other key component here is that if the private-sector bids that was in northern Calgary. This was determined to be the fair are not competitive with the public-sector comparator, then they will actual price by a judge when it came to the expropriation. not be accepted. I really must stress, Mr. Speaker, that we try to give fair market value. I think that when it comes to the beneficiary of that price, it’s Mr. Martin: Mr. Speaker, the minister, as we know from the important that we have a transparent process to ensure that they get Henday, was totally off base on his estimates on Anthony Henday. the proper price for their land. In this particular case I have no Won’t he admit to this Assembly that that’s the real reason we’re not hesitation in saying that that is exactly what happened with your looking at the public-sector comparator right now? That’s the real constituent. reason.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview, Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, I’ll reiterate. We were off base. If we followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. would have done it by conventional financing, it would have been $125 million higher. Northeast Calgary Ring Road Mr. Martin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Conservative govern- The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, followed ment recently announced that the northeast leg of Calgary’s ring by the hon. Member for Calgary-McCall. road would be built as a so-called P3. This government never learns. The southeast Edmonton ring road was first announced as a $300 Royalty Revenues million project; 16 months later the cost of building the road as a P3 Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Albertans demand a fair had ballooned to almost half a billion dollars, the triumph of share for their resources through proper royalty rates. The Crown ideology over common sense. My question is, of course, to the revenue share, the portion of industry’s annual net operating revenue Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation. How are Albertans that is paid to the Crown as royalty, has decreased 4 per cent since 292 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006

2001, meaning that millions of dollars have not been collected that fourth largest aboriginal population in Canada, and my constituency should have been collected for the Alberta treasury. My first of Calgary-McCall has the second largest aboriginal population in question is to the Minister of Energy. When oil and gas companies Calgary. As I discuss quality-of-life matters with my constituents, are posting millions of dollars in record profits, why is it necessary I am appalled at a number of issues affecting the well-being of for this government to continue to provide more than $100 million aboriginal people in Calgary. Furthermore, I’m surprised there isn’t annually in financial assistance through tax credits? Even the a clear understanding of the Calgary urban aboriginal strategy. My Auditor General reports this in his latest report. first question is to the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. What is the Calgary urban aboriginal strategy, and Mr. Melchin: Mr. Speaker, on the first issue, with respect to the how is the policy impacting aboriginal people of Calgary? percentage rate of return, that’s a general, overall averaged rate given all the different royalty structures we have for oil sands, for Ms Calahasen: Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all, the urban aboriginal conventional, and the like. That has been impacted by the substan- strategy is actually a federal government strategy. Alberta signed on tive increase in the oil sands activity. As you know, our generic just so that we can make sure that we would implement it with the royalty regime is 1 per cent until payout, so because those projects municipalities as well as with aboriginal communities. There are a are coming on in greater quantity and production, it’s lowering the number of reasons to do that. We wanted to make sure we establish overall average rate today, but it’s going to substantively help the process to effectively address the needs of the aboriginal people increase the royalties in the future. That rate was all designed to of Calgary, in this case, and other cities but also to make sure that help us attract the investment so that we could have that long-term we built on what was already there, what was needed, and why some viability. of those programs were not working. On the second issue, Mr. Speaker, there have been some real Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, to the same minister – and this has projects that have come out as a result of the urban aboriginal got nothing to do with the oil sands royalty program – why is it strategy. Just to give you an idea, I’ll just list off some of the litany necessary to continue to reduce royalties by over a half a billion of programs that I do have, and I think it’s really important to see dollars annually through 10 different oil and gas royalty reduction this. First of all, I would say the Centre for Suicide Prevention, and programs when these resources are being sold at record prices? that’s to make sure the development and implementation of the aboriginal suicide prevention workshops in Calgary occurred; Mr. Melchin: Mr. Speaker, I might speak to one in particular; for secondly, the Alexandra health centre, where lunch and learn, the example, the deep gas royalty holiday that was put in place to help aboriginal cultural awareness training for health professionals and us ensure that we get at the hard-to-find, difficult areas, very other professionals in Calgary, is occurring; and of course the Awo marginal, substantially high-cost exploration wells that haven’t been Taan Native Women’s Shelter, where we have the pediatric health found. Our royalty structures are put in place to help ensure that we initiative to support the shelter, of course, and their clinic in get value and find and recover any and all of those resources. providing community liaison health services to residents of the shelter. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Shariff: My first supplemental is also to the same minister. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My third question is to Given that the urban aboriginal population is young, mobile, and the Minister of Finance. How can this government continue to growing in numbers in cities, what initiative is the minister working underfund long-term care when millions of dollars in royalty on to help these young people transition into city life? revenue are being left uncollected by this government? Ms Calahasen: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think this is really important Mrs. McClellan: Well, first of all, Mr. Speaker, I would unequivo- when we’re talking about the aboriginal community. I just want to cally disagree with this hon. member that we are leaving royalty give a plug for the AUMA and the AAMD and C in wanting to build revenue uncollected. The energy industry has a long and important better relationships with the aboriginal community. They’ve done history of contributing to the economic well-being of this province, an excellent job, of course, through the AWPI, which we’re now and everybody in this Assembly knows that. However, there have working on with the various municipalities. Thirdly, we have a been a number of programs that have been put in place over the number of programs that we’ve been working with, and I want to be years for a particular situation, one of which the minister just able to talk about those. explained now. There are many different royalty structures. There First of all, the NAPI ambassador program connects aboriginal are challenges in securing some pools of gas or oil, and some of youth currently in junior and senior high school with aboriginal these structures were put in place at that time. These are negotiated ambassadors to provide accurate information in accessing higher over a period of time in good faith to serve a purpose. education. Of course, the Boys and Girls Club of Calgary also I would say to the hon. member that the amount of revenue that focuses on creating cultural development programs for aboriginal we collect from the oil and gas industry in this province speaks to youth in the Bowness and Forest Lawn areas. the success of the programs that we have, unlike some provinces that have the same energy source that we do but have not contributed to Mr. Shariff: Mr. Speaker, not wanting to make this the puffball it by reducing taxes, improving royalty programs, and encouraging question, I would ask the minister if she wants to add any additional economic activity. information to what she has already answered.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-McCall, followed by The Speaker: Go ahead. Thirty seconds. the hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Ms Calahasen: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think this is really important. 2:40 Urban Aboriginal Strategy First of all, we also have what we call the business etiquette and job finding skills. The Urban Society for Aboriginal Youth will conduct Mr. Shariff: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The city of Calgary has the March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 293 workshops on business etiquette, job finding, and of course résumé related deaths on the farm in Alberta. On average four of those writing for aboriginal youth. The Chinook Lodge, through SAIT, yearly deaths involved children under 18 years old, 87 per cent were provides academic learner services to aboriginal students. There are male, and 70 per cent of the incidents involved farm machinery. a whole litany of areas that we’ve been working on, and I’ll file One of the most powerful teaching tools that exists is leading by those at some point in time if you would like. example, Mr. Speaker, and that applies to ag and farm safety too. Management, not labour, shapes everyone’s attitude towards safety. Vignettes from the Assembly’s History Proper training, identifying hazards, and managing risk are vital to The Speaker: Hon. members, in the election of 1921 Irene Parlby today’s agriculture industry. Remaining vigilant is an ongoing was elected as a member of the United Farmers of Alberta in the process and an important element in workplace and agricultural constituency of Lacombe. She was to be re-elected in the elections safety. of 1926 and 1930 and served to 1935. In 1921 Irene Parlby was I’d like to congratulate the organizers, the Canadian Federation of appointed minister without portfolio and served in that capacity until Agriculture and the Farm Credit Corporation, for choosing Alberta 1935. She was the first woman to be appointed to an Alberta cabinet for their western launch, held on March 6 in Olds at Olds College position. farm shop. I also want to congratulate the organizers and sponsors It was not until 1973 that the first woman cabinet minister was on their focus this year on 15- to 25-year-old individuals. Youth appointed with a full portfolio. Helen Hunley was elected as a makes up a significant portion of new farm workers, and with the Progressive Conservative in 1971 in the constituency of Rocky least experience they are most at risk, Mr. Speaker. It is farm safety Mountain House and in 1973 was appointed Solicitor General. She for the sake of the future. won re-election in 1975 and served to 1979. Canadian Agricultural Safety Week, March 8 to 14: I hope Irene Parlby was to play a leading role in the Persons Case. Helen everyone is aware and safe. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hunley was appointed Alberta’s 12th Lieutenant Governor in 1985, the first woman appointed to that position in Alberta, and served The Speaker: The hon. Member for Leduc-Beaumont-Devon. until 1991. Irene Parlby died on July 12, 1965. Helen Hunley lives in semiretirement in Alberta. First-aid Assistance at St. Benedict School In 30 seconds I’ll call upon the first of several members. Hon. members, might we revert briefly to Introduction of Guests? Mr. Rogers: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m honoured to rise today to recognize a group of heroes in my constituency. On February 24 [Unanimous consent granted] of this year during a dance and silent auction at St. Benedict elementary school in the city of Leduc a parent attending the event head: Introduction of Guests suddenly collapsed. His breathing was laboured, and it was apparent (reversion) that he was in need of medical attention. Mr. Ouellette: Mr. Speaker, it’s a little bit unfortunate; I think my 2:50 guests did have to leave, but for the record they’re still in the Four people present – Audrey Hochhausen, Amanda Garneau, building somewhere. It’s a great pleasure for me to introduce to you Susan Yacyna, and Karen Bibaud – came to his aid. All four are and through you to all members of the Assembly a group of students proud members of the nursing profession, and they immediately from my constituency of Innisfail-Sylvan Lake. Visiting the Leg. recognized the serious nature of his condition. Without hesitation today from Sylvan Lake was a bright group of 58 students in grade they put their skills to use, providing first aid until emergency 6 from Fox Run school along with their teachers John Fielder and response staff arrived to transport this gentleman to the hospital. Karen Adair and teacher assistant Renee Deacon. Within that group During this critical time the teaching staff at St. Ben’s also per- I would also like to give a special welcome to parent helpers Lorie formed admirably, maintaining control of the youth and parents Johanson, Frank McLean, Tina Thiel, Karen McCartney, Deb present, keeping everyone calm, and giving these ladies the room Schultz, and Lynne Breton. Lynne is the daughter of Louise they needed to work. Kamuchik, Clerk Assistant here in the Legislature. Her grandson Mr. Speaker, without the intervention of everyone involved, this Dillon was here also. Well, I think they’ve left, Mr. Speaker, so gentleman would not have survived. He remains in hospital but is thank you. expected to be discharged fairly soon. I would ask the members of the House to join me in recognizing and congratulating not only The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Bow. these four women for their quick action that saved the life of a stranger but also the staff of St. Benedict school who helped to Ms DeLong: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Similarly, my visitors have control the situation and provide support. Together they averted already left, but I did recognize up in the gallery someone who I met what could have been a tragedy. quite a while back at Climate Change Central. It was Scott Fleming from Teletrips, and he was accompanied by Gord Olsen. It was just good to see them here. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. head: Members’ Statements Amanda Ammar Canadian Agricultural Safety Week Mr. VanderBurg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to recognize a young lady from Onoway, Amanda Ammar, who Mr. Griffiths: Mr. Speaker, today until March 14 is Canadian represented our country at the 2006 Olympics in Italy. Amanda was Agricultural Safety Week. The theme this year, Farm Safety is My born on February 6, 1986, in St. Albert and soon moved to Business, reflects the attitude that farm safety is a personal responsi- Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. She was only three years old when she first bility and starts with each and every one of us on the farm. took up cross-country skiing and was the youngest member ever to Mr. Speaker, from 1985 to 2004 there was an average of 18 farm- train with the Onoway Jackrabbits. Skiing distances of 15 and 55 294 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006 kilometers as an 11-year-old, this “racing rabbit” showed great mentioned many times, youth are the future of this province, and promise and joined the Edmonton nordic club. their input is very valuable. Amanda made herself well known as a rising star with outstanding Mr. Speaker, a youth network is a committee of youth who have abilities during her next years, becoming an Alberta provincial met often to identify social, health, community, and economic issues champion and earning the honour of representing the Canadian affecting youth. These networks provide our youth with a chance to junior national team. When Amanda’s positive attitude, hard work, work with local and provincial authorities in finding solutions to and outstanding skills led to a magical call telling her she would be address different issues and challenges that youth face. They also representing Canada on the cross-country Olympic ski team in allow Alberta’s young people to give feedback on the services Torino, Italy, a dream had truly been realized. provided to youth in their own communities. Back in grade 1 Amanda drew a picture of herself beside a These youth networks have been very successful to date. In mountain embedded with the five Olympic rings, and now, as a 20- region 1 the southern youth network advisory panel hosted a youth year-old, she is the youngest person ever to represent the Canadian forum to aid their children and family services authority in its cross-country Olympic ski team. Of course, Amanda’s family has business planning process. This gave the authority a chance to hear supported her every step of the way, and we can only imagine the directly from the youth in the region and to use their comments in pride they all felt when they watched her dream come true in Italy. any upcoming regional initiatives. Amanda now trains at the world-class facilities of Canmore In region 6 the coalition of street youth have been working to Nordic Centre, where she also receives world-class coaching and is come up with a magazine targeted at high-risk youth. aiming for the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver and beyond. This Another group, Mr. Speaker, the Alberta prevention of bullying dedicated Albertan truly has a remarkable future ahead of her, and youth committee, is working hard to address the challenging issue the town of Onoway, the constituency of Whitecourt-Ste. Anne, the of bullying. They have taken action by working on an antibullying province of Alberta, and all of Canada should be very proud of her. awareness campaign for youth. On behalf of all my colleagues congratulations and best of luck, These are just examples of the great work that these individuals in Amanda. We’ll be watching in four years. our youth network do for our communities. Through these youth networks our youth are becoming involved in their communities and The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. are able to support their future growth and success. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Mr. Speaker. National Child Care Program The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Mrs. Mather: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate this opportu- nity to once again speak to this House about the importance of a Health Care Reform Public Consultation strong, well-supported child care sector in Alberta. Today child care workers and concerned parents have organized a rally in Calgary and Mr. Chase: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. This government one that will take place outside the House this evening. Some of confuses the term “communication” with‘con-munication.’ For a them are our visitors here today. number of years this government has dabbled and doublespoken Albertans recognize the threat that Prime Minister Harper’s new about the importance of preserving the Canada Health Act while program represents to our own child care program in Alberta. That undermining the public system. It has spoken about delisting plan would have several negative impacts on these workers. Most services, reconsidering what is medically necessary for coverage, obviously, it would result in an end to the provincial funding that and, most recently, to what extent it can offload its public responsi- helped raise child care workers’ wages to more respectable levels. bility onto private insurance companies. To aid in its public health Many families will no longer be able to afford child care. This will betrayal, it hired the private insurance company Aon at a cost of over result in closure of some child care facilities and in some parents 1 million taxpayer dollars to help the government disassemble their leaving the workforce. I, for one, am willing to voice my support for public system. the child care sector in Alberta in demanding that this provincial Six years ago this government, after two previous attempts, used government remain committed to the principles that guided the five- closure to finally ram through Bill 11 legislation. On the Legislature point plan. grounds thousands of Albertans protested the government’s refusal The Premier has already stated that he is in support of Mr. Harper, to listen. Approximately 10,000 protestors gathered at the AgriCom in support of ending provincial supports to the child care sector. The in Edmonton while between 4,000 to 5,000 gathered at the Corral in hon. Minister of Children’s Services has not yet stated her position. Calgary. I’m asking the hon. minister to respect the commitments that this This people’s parliament, the Legislature, was turned into a lock- government made to the child care sector in Alberta. There are down mode reminiscent of the storming of the Bastille. Perhaps this thousands of Albertans, thousands of families in this province, that is why the Conservative king, who barely escaped with his life, will be negatively impacted by the federal Conservative plan. confuses public consultation with confrontation. Three times this In closing, I encourage all of the members of this House to voice week he has crowed his reluctance to attend public forums as support for the child care sector in Alberta and in doing so show meetings with peasants and plebeians, Marthas and Henrys can be Ottawa that we value the wonderful work that they do in our rather raucous affairs. If this government truly wanted to hear from province. Thank you. Albertans on its proposed third-way plans, it would leave the security of its legislative castle and mix with the masses. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. head: Notices of Motions Youth Networks The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is my on a Standing Order 40 application. pleasure to rise today to discuss Alberta’s youth networks. As I have March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 295

Mr. Martin: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to move Standing Order 40 Member for Edmonton-Rutherford regarding consultant contracts. on the Order Paper for debate later on. I am pleased to table today five copies of that additional information. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. head: Tabling Returns and Reports The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Mrs. Mather: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table the appro- priate number of copies of six of the many letters I’ve received from Mr. Agnihotri: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to table the concerned parents, daycare owners and staff, and other concerned appropriate number of copies of six of the many letters we have citizens. These letters voice serious concerns surrounding the received from concerned parents, daycare owners and staff, and cancellation of the national daycare program. The letters I am other concerned citizens. These letters voice serious concerns tabling today are from Aliya Ashraf, Stacie Nikolyuk,* Gina Del surrounding the cancellation of the national daycare program. The Brocco, Cindy Stork, Monique Allen, and Terry Yahnke. letters I am tabling today are from M. Golberg, George Bruseker, Christa Gilroy, Bill Gilroy, Lonnie Varze, Ella McEvoy. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. Thank you. 3:00 Mr. Tougas: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table the The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Decore. appropriate number of copies of letters we received concerning the cancellation of the national daycare program. They are from Rae- Mr. Bonko: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to table the Anne Richard, Kayla Herman, Arash Riahi, Laura Fulmer, Gracy appropriate number of copies of seven of the many letters I have Cysouvic,* and Laurie Ethier. received from concerned parents, daycare owners and staff, and Thank you. other concerned citizens. These letters voice serious concerns surrounding the cancellation of the national daycare program. The The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. letters I am tabling today are from Amanda Rintisch, Bozena Kurzatkowski, Michele Yankowski, C.P. Whyayazski,* Donna Ms Pastoor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings today. Alexander, Lana Sinclair, and Evelyn Blain. The first is from the Warden family, a very disappointed response to Thank you, Mr. Speaker. the protection for persons in care report. I have the requisite five copies for the House. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-McClung. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Mr. Elsalhy: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today on behalf of my hon. colleague from Edmonton-Mill Woods to table the appropriate Ms Pastoor: I have another one. Sorry. number of copies of seven of the many letters that she received from concerned parents, daycare owners and staff, and other concerned The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. citizens. These letters voice serious concerns surrounding Prime Minister Harper’s rash decision to cancel the national daycare Ms Pastoor: Thank you. My second one is a letter to the Premier agreement. The letters are from Jody Matwichuk, Lori Engman, from the Alberta Association of Rehabilitation Centres, in which James Grant, Connie Bowie, Candace Diker,* Fiona McLellan, and their contention is that “community services to people with develop- Dr. Isabelle Chapados. mental disabilities are in crisis.” I have the five requisite copies. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie.

Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Three tablings today. The Mr. Agnihotri: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have another tabling, first is on behalf of my colleague from Edmonton-Riverview, the from my constituent Mr. Jim Sexsmith, who is a veteran and retired, Leader of the Official Opposition, which is a copy of the letter sent living on a very low income. He is concerned about affordable, low- to the Premier requesting a public, televised, all-party debate on the income housing for veterans. He’s urging the government to take government’s third-way plans. action and help find an affordable place for retired veterans like The second tabling is from Marc Brisbourne, who is a constituent himself. in my riding, with concerns around particularly item 9 in the government’s health policy framework: paying for choice and The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. access. He feels that this will lead to better care for higher incomes and that the ability to pay for treatment should not be a criteria, how Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m tabling five copies of a much you can pay. document called The Daily, published every day by Stats Canada. The final one is from Denis Arrowchaser, who believes that the This one is dated March 7. It’s a summary of the findings of a report “private section medical care will produce longer waits in the public called Women in Canada, which finds that while women are closing section . . . . We should just continue to fix the current system.” the education gap with men, they still tend to earn less and be at Thank you, Mr. Speaker. higher risk of living in poverty. These disparities are especially predominant for women who come from visible minority groups. Mrs. McClellan: Mr. Speaker, during question period on Monday, Thank you, Mr. Speaker. March 4, I undertook to provide a further response to the hon.

*These spellings could not be verified at the time of publication. 296 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006 head: Motions under Standing Order 40 Albertans in their own communities to provide input with respect to this, I consider it a most urgent matter, that the Assembly should The Speaker: Hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview, you deal with this motion and establish an all-party committee of the gave notice of a motion that I gather wants to be introduced by the Legislature to hold public hearings around the province and submit leader of the third party. Is that correct? its report to this Assembly and to the government prior to legislation being introduced which will dramatically and radically transform our Mr. Martin: That’s correct. public health care system. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: Okay. This is a Standing Order 40 application, so I would ask the hon. leader of the third party to read the motion into [Unanimous consent denied] the record and explain briefly the condition. Then I intend on calling the question. head: 3:10 Committee of Supply Health Reform Public Consultation [Mr. Shariff in the chair] Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The motion is: The Deputy Chair: Hon. members, we’ll call the committee to Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly urge the government to immediately establish a committee for the purposes of holding order. public hearings in all regions of the province on the government’s health policy framework, February 2006, and, further, that the head: Interim Supply Estimates 2006-07 committee should General Revenue Fund and Lottery Fund (a) include committee members from each of the parties repre- The Deputy Chair: We shall begin with the hon. Minister of sented in the Legislature, (b) have the authority to hold public meetings and establish other Infrastructure and Transportation. parameters for an open and transparent public hearing process, and (c) report on its findings at the fall 2006 session of the Legislative Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It gives me great Assembly pleasure to rise today to speak to the interim supply estimates for the and, further, that no legislation implementing the government’s so- Department of Infrastructure and Transportation. What we are called third way in health reform is introduced to the Legislative asking for today is $832,400,000 for operating expenses as well as Assembly until the committee’s work is completed. another $207 million, which end up being for capital expenses. Mr. Speaker, I believe that the motion is extremely urgent. I won’t take a lot of time today. Quite simply, the first number, Albertans have consistently told us that health care is the issue that the $835 million, is broken down as follows. There are $400 million they care most about. It is the largest expenditure item in the annual for the municipal partnership grants. These are grants that will be budgets of the province, and people’s lives depend on it. There is going out in the first two months, prior to the budget being passed. obviously a great deal at stake. Public opinion polls have shown There are $25 million more for capital and accommodation projects. repeatedly that the public wishes to retain the single-payer public These are for rent. These are for upgrading. The capital amount, in health care system that we have in this province. short, is for doing what the Department of Infrastructure and Mr. Speaker, the government’s health care agenda seems to have Transportation does each and every day. The rest of the $835 a timeline of its own. There are very dramatic reforms, so-called million is simply two-twelfths of my operating budget, which allows reforms, being proposed which will undermine, in our view, the me to actually pay my staff and, again, to do the things that we need public health care system in this country that has served us very well to do in Infrastructure and Transportation. for 40 years. Yet Albertans are entirely shut out of the process. There are also $207.8 million in capital investment. This is for I’m asking that the Assembly debate this motion immediately road projects that are presently being done. As the hon. member because the consultation process introduced by the government will knows, under conventional financing we do have to pay for these as not provide opportunities for public input prior to the legislation they are being done, and we do not want to nor wish to delay any being introduced. The government has indicated that they wish to road projects for two months in our very short construction season introduce the legislation sometime early in April, Mr. Speaker. while the budget is being passed. They’ve indicated that there is a four-week window for what they Mr. Chair, that’s what the dollars are being used for. If there are call consultation, of which three weeks are left, yet most Albertans any questions, I’d be more than happy to take them. are as yet unfamiliar with the government’s proposals. So the timelines are very short before this legislation is going to be The Deputy Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. introduced. Mr. Speaker, I think that it is critical that before the government Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It’s introduces this legislation for what they’ve indicated is going to be a pleasure to get an opportunity to participate in debate this after- essentially a two-tier health care system, that the public has an noon on the interim supply estimates for 2006-07. Certainly, when opportunity, as the government has promised, to find out about the we look at this and the hon. minister innocently states that this is details of the government’s proposals and to provide comment to the one-sixth, or two-twelfths, of the annual budget, well, then you government. The process that has been set in place by the govern- would think that there shouldn’t be any problems. ment does not allow this. In fact, it has been largely used as an However, one looks at the spending habits of this particular opportunity or as an excuse to avoid answering detailed questions government now and what they used to be, what they were at one from Albertans and from the opposition on the question. time. When the current Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview Given that the government had been unwilling to debate health was first a representative in this Legislative Assembly, this govern- care during the last election, promised consultations, those consulta- ment had a very, very bad spending habit. Then they had a curious tions have not occurred, the legislation is being drafted as we speak, habit of reducing significant expenditures in core areas, which today and there is no meaningful public consultation process that allows we are still facing the consequences of. Because of this overspend- March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 297 ing and this notion that we could have special warrants and the fact Board, some of the increases that would have occurred there and for that perhaps money did grow on trees – everyone but the govern- what reasons, because the Alberta Gazette is really a snapshot into ment seemed to know that this wasn’t true – we had to have dramatic how this government operates and how this government spends cuts in government expenditure. No one denied that that should money. I would not be surprised to see in the Alberta Gazette where occur, but how it should occur was a significant topic for debate. some of the contract budget increases and extensions have been for Now, I said before that we’ve cut the health care budget. We cut less than that 25 per cent figure, and many would be over that 25 per the budget towards public education. Certainly, the infrastructure cent figure. budget was reduced. We’re still playing catch-up on that. How much catch-up? Well, even the hon. minister was just in the last Dr. Oberg: That’s why 25 is an average. fiscal year talking about borrowing money. Yes, borrowing money. I don’t know if he had your permission or not, Minister of Finance, Mr. MacDonald: A 25 per cent increase is now an average, Mr. but he was talking about it. I don’t know if the hon. Minister of Chairman. Finance had been consulted on this borrowing that was anticipated The high cost of steel is used as an excuse. I was astonished when or thought about by the minister, but the infrastructure deficit was I was doing some research on this outfit called Shanghai Construc- first reported to be $3 billion, then it went to $4 billion, and then it tion, that is being used to import temporary foreign workers to this went up past $7 billion. So that is yet another example of some of province. This outfit, Shanghai Construction: not only are they busy the previous planning that has occurred with this Progressive doing construction projects, but they’re also a manufacturer of steel Conservative government. and steel products. I was astonished to read on the Internet that their Now, how concerned should we be about that, and how concerned profit margin had changed because the price of steel had decreased. should we be about this whenever we’re discussing the interim I keep hearing from many different sectors in this hot economy in supply amounts to be voted, Mr. Chairman? Well, we only have to Alberta that the price of steel is going very high, and I found that have a look at the Order Paper from last week. This is the Order contradictory, that this outfit was complaining that their profit Paper from day 3, Monday, February 27. We can just review some margins had to be readjusted because the price of steel was going of the motions here, but certainly Motion 514 has caught my eye and down. So if there are any buyers out there of steel and steel caught the eye of a lot of different Albertans. The hon. Member for products, I would urge them to perhaps contact this outfit and see Battle River-Wainwright has obviously some concerns about what their prices are. government spending and government spending habits. This motion Now, that shouldn’t be used as an excuse. Steel prices should not reads: be used as an excuse for increased construction costs. I find it Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly urge the Government astonishing that it would be. Even if it’s an average of 25 per cent, to introduce legislation to ensure that all budget surpluses or I think our construction companies and our construction managers unbudgeted revenue from a given fiscal year be held in a holding are much more able and capable of making decisions on and off the account until its allocation is debated by the Legislative Assembly site, and I don’t think that is necessary. the following fiscal year. Mr. Chairman, when we look at the interim supply budget under Motion 514 indicates to me that there is concern on the government Infrastructure and Transportation, we think of the bridges. We think side of the House as to how this whole process of budgeting is of the roads that need repair. Certainly, this hon. member is quite working. satisfied with the explanation from the hon. minister in regard to Now, when we discuss interim supply for Infrastructure and looking after his staff. That’s one place where I think we need to Transportation, how confident can we be that next fall, for instance, ensure that people are well compensated. we’re not going to be looking for more money for this department? Government employees: there are certainly significant pressures Infrastructure repairs and infrastructure construction are certainly to attract them to the private sector. If we have design engineers and necessary. It is a vital, vital department. In light of the poor we have planners working in the department, I think we should make planning that’s gone on, how much extra we are paying now for sure that they are well looked after financially, or the minister will infrastructure is the question. be working there past midnight by himself. They’d all be gone to The hon. minister talked earlier about the allocations and also the oil and gas sector. These are competent, able people, and we talked earlier in question period about the 25 per cent increase in have to make sure that their compensation is adequate. I have some construction costs. Well, I haven’t got, in my view, an adequate questions about some of the deputy ministers and people like that, answer yet from the minister in regard to the $40 million-plus cost Mr. Chairman – don’t get me wrong – about some of their bonuses overruns on the flyway intersecting the Queen Elizabeth II highway, and whatnot, but we have to make sure that Alberta government the old highway 2, and the Anthony Henday Drive project. The hon. employees are well looked after financially and that they are minister was certainly forthwith – and I appreciate this – with the satisfied with their workload and their employment conditions. information in regard to the inappropriate rumble strips that We talked earlier about the budget process and the fact that we are appeared below the overpass on highway 2, where it was considered now looking at this interim supply, of course, until the budget is by myself and many other motorists to be unsafe and unacceptable introduced. I assumed, like everyone else, that the whole budget on a relatively new road. I appreciate the minister’s clarification on process started in November, but much to my surprise when I that matter, but I’m still after the details on why that cost overrun received a leak – and I was grateful for receiving the leak – on the was so significant. It could not all be attributed to the increases in Department of Energy’s budget, I saw that the budget documents the cost of cement. were going before private, government-members-only standing 3:20 policy committees in October. I thought this whole process started Now, earlier today the minister talked in question period, as I said, after Remembrance Day, but certainly I was wrong. about the 25 per cent increase in construction costs. I had an urge to go down – and I just haven’t had an opportunity – to the library and Dr. Oberg: We’ll make sure you get your leaks. get the Alberta Gazette and see what percentage increase there is in the private-sector contracts that have been approved by the Treasury Mr. MacDonald: I appreciate that. 298 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006

If this process is starting in October, it’s much sooner than I have to go 400 metres east of here to see the rusting rebar poking thought. There shouldn’t be any reason at all why the budget could through the concrete from the bridge over the North Saskatchewan not come much sooner. It would not be necessary to have this River. There is significant pressure to have not only that bridge but debate this afternoon on interim supply. other bridges repaired. We need to get on with a lot of things. Other That goes back, Mr. Chairman, to the concern that I had earlier parts of the country may look with envy at the budget surplus, but about the long-term planning of this government and the worry we need to continue to build this province through the Department that’s reflected in Motion 514, the worry that government spending of Infrastructure and Transportation. is out of control. I know that the size of the government has Thank you. increased – and we’ve talked about this before – but we need to make sure that we’re satisfying all interested parties: taxpayers, the The Deputy Chair: The hon. minister. Taxpayers Federation, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the opposition parties, everyone. If we had better long- Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I would just like to term planning by this government, I think we would have better address a couple of the points that were brought up by the hon. confidence in the entire process, and we would see that confidence member. First of all, I thank the hon. member for alluding to the expressed by the citizens. amount that we pay our civil servants. I, too, concur that we are in Now, this money is simply to carry the government through until a very hot economy. My deputy minister, for example, is a struc- its budget. It’s an allowance, if we could call it that. Whenever tural bridge engineer, and structural bridge engineers are very highly your children, Mr. Chairman, are quite free with their allowance, one sought after in the private sector. Therefore, we do have to ensure has a tendency to watch it more closely. This is the same with this that they are compensated well enough so that we can take their full government. It has to be watched very, very closely to ensure that attributes within the government system. this money is being spent when and where it is needed. A couple of other comments I would make though. I know that We’re having this debate on the sustainability of health care. it’s probably for no reason other than that the hon. member has never Public health care, according to government cabinet ministers, is no been in the government, but we actually start our process in about longer sustainable. I would beg to differ. Certainly, we’re going to June or July of the year prior to the budget. I start my business see in this budget for this respective ministry some money being planning process in June where we go through complete discussions spent on public health care facilities for the public good. But when with the department about the business plan. That starts in June and we look back at how some of this money has been spent in the past, moves through to July and August. We do not necessarily receive one has to wonder. our final dollar amounts until later on in October, November. I would like to have my copy of the public accounts before me to The whole budget process is a lot more than simply receiving a see if, for instance, IBM has been getting any money for supplies dollar amount from Treasury Board. It does take a lot of planning; and services from the Department of Infrastructure and Transporta- it takes a lot of time. Quite simply, it’s usually around an eight- or tion. I certainly know they’re getting money from the department of nine-month process. Then ultimately what has to happen – and I’m health. In fact, we looked at the third-quarter update, and there was sure the Finance minister can speak for herself – is that it has to be a significant increase in the third-quarter update on the amount of printed. It has to be made sure that there are no mistakes. money we’re spending on the electronic health records. I wonder The hon. member was talking about the interim supply. Quite what part of that budget, if any, is going to be directed toward IBM. simply, Mr. Chair, if the budget were announced – and it’s my Maybe I will get the answer to that question through the course of understanding that the budget has been announced for the end of debate. I would appreciate it. March – and if the opposition were to simply say, “We agree with 3:30 the budget, and we don’t need to debate it,” so that we can get it in by April 1 and get it done, then the hon. member is absolutely Certainly, Mr. Chairman, this interim supply budget is an example correct: we wouldn’t have to do interim supply. We could simply of a government that needs to spend a little bit more time on long- say: yes, thank you very much, and thank you for recognizing our term planning. Now, last week I believe I compared this govern- very comprehensive budgeting process. It would simply be passed, ment to what I considered a hockey team where everybody wants to and we would be able to get on with business. But this side believes be the captain. The current captain is slowing down a bit, not on the in full democracy, and we’re going to debate the bill. We’re going power play as often as he used to be. He certainly still scores, but to take a look at each specific department, which is going to take the 50-goal seasons are past. There are a couple of people, some of around 24 or 25 days, a day for each department or a session for them playing on the same line, some of them I would consider good each department. That is the reason, quite simply, why we need the right-wingers, some of them more to the centre, and some of them interim supply. As the hon. member correctly stated, we have to to the left with their spending habits, you know, but they all have keep on building the infrastructure. We have to keep on with what their eye on the C, on the captaincy. I think that may be one of the is happening in Alberta. reasons, Mr. Chairman, why we are seeing this obvious lack of The only other comment that I would make is about the issue of attention to detail in budget planning. This is why we are having the 25 per cent cost increase. Over the past nine or 10 years the this discussion, this debate, this afternoon on the interim supply construction costs have been averaging around 3 or 4 per cent. All estimates for fiscal year 2006-07. of a sudden last year it went up 25 per cent, and that was for a The team needs an allowance. They certainly do. But how much? combination of reasons. What you saw – and I apologize for the The minister’s reasons earlier in debate certainly were valid. I think allusion – was a perfect storm coming together. You had a shortage it is good that the overall department is essentially going to be of labour, and the labour prices were going up significantly. You looked after. Now, whether one-sixth of the budget is enough for had a shortage of steel, and the steel prices were going up as well. the year for the department itself, that’s hard to say, but certainly we The third thing which happened is that we actually ran out of cement can’t say no when we look at the infrastructure deficit that has in this province, and the shortage of cement actually also led to the occurred in this province because of long-term planning. increase in costs. So you had this whole vortex of three or four I said in the Assembly here before, Mr. Chairman, that we only different things that all hit at once, which led to this inflationary March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 299 pressure of 25 per cent. That is something that was in both the There’s no doubt about that. So now we’re playing catch-up, and public sector as well as the private sector, and those numbers are it’s a matter of how much you can do in any given year. That’s certainly recognized. where we’re at. I would hope that in the future we would recognize The hon. member made another interesting comment about the that we can’t put all the eggs in the one basket. price of steel. I, too, have seen that the price of steel may well be It’s had an impact on health care and education, and I’d think that coming down. This was not expected by our industry; it was not a previous Minister of Education would recognize that. So, expected by us. There are so many factors that deal with what is hopefully, we’ve learned from that situation that there has to be a happening in China and what is happening with the steel manufac- balance. turers of the world that it was very difficult to perceive. It’s difficult I want to just follow up with P3s though. The minister is an to perceive that this is going to be a long-term trend and we’ll ardent advocate of P3s, even though I think that even he would actually get back down to the prices that we were paying four or five admit that the history has not been very promising. In Nova Scotia years ago. Or is it simply a downturn because economies around the a Conservative government got rid of them after a Liberal govern- world have become so overheated that they have bought the steel, ment brought them in. In Britain they’ve been a disaster. We’ve and simply they are not buying more right now? So it’s very even had some experiences here with the Calgary courthouse and so difficult to establish what exactly the reason and rationale are. forth. I have heard rumours that the country of China last year utilized I want to go to what I was trying to get at in question period about roughly 200,000 metric tonnes of steel and that, in fact, that may rise Anthony Henday. The figures that we have now come to the 25 per to 400,000 metric tonnes. I don’t know if that is true or not. The cent. Admittedly, when the P3 was announced on the 22nd – the issue is that it’s a supply-and-demand market, and my understanding reason I’m reviewing this is because I think it has implications for is that the supply of steel in the world has actually increased to the the Calgary ring road and any other P3s we may look at – it was point where we are seeing a bit of a decline in price. As I stated $300 million for the 11-kilometre stretch of road connecting earlier, Mr. Chair, I don’t know if this is going to continue. I don’t highways 2 and 14. Now, 16 months later the cost is $493 million, know if we’re going to continue to see this. a 60 per cent increase. I know that the minister said – and it’s What I will suggest, though, and what our industry counterparts correct – that there were changes that occurred in there. As I are telling us is that the 25 per cent is not going to be the norm. understand it: two additional bridges, additional kilometres, six lanes We’re not going to be seeing 25 per cent inflationary pressures over instead of four lanes, maintenance, and so forth. the next year. As a matter of fact, we’re in the process of budgeting around 6 per cent, so we hope that we are over. We hope that it will I guess the only question I would have there is that if the people be under that, but we are budgeting for a 6 per cent inflationary in his department thought that $300 million was the cost, are we trend. getting the cadillac version or not? I think that’s an important point, Mr. Chair, the hon. member has hit exactly what the issues are. but I’m more interested in the later figures. On January 27, 2005, We’re asking for this money simply to keep our department running you’ll recall, the government news release said that it would have for the next two months as well as for the grants to other organiza- cost up to – up to; that was an interesting way to put it: up to – $497 tions such as municipalities. That’s why we’re asking for the million to build the southeast ring road using conventional public dollars. For us to lose two months in April and May would be financing. They said that the P3 was only $4 million less costly absolutely catastrophic for the road building industry as well as the compared to the original government claim of a $30 million savings. infrastructure construction industry in Alberta. Therefore, we do So $493 million. As I recollect it, the drift of that particular release have to continue. We do need the interim supply. I thank the was: boy, we’re going to save $4 million because it could have cost member for his comments. us up to $497 million. Then we had that internal report around here – the public-sector The Deputy Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly- comparator was an internal government document, and the minister Clareview. is aware of it – that showed that the southeast ring road would have cost between $452 million and $497 million using conventional Mr. Martin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we all admit that financing. In other words, instead of costing $4 million less as a P3, we have in this province right now an infrastructure deficit, but I the project was just as likely to cost $41 million more. Now, that think the blame, frankly, has to go back to when we got preoccupied. was not on the original release. So you see the skepticism starting To me there are three sorts of deficits you always have to balance off here, Mr. Minister. in government: the social deficit, and we’re talking about the human Then on May 19, as I recollect, the day after the Legislature services; the bottom-line deficit, which we got preoccupied with in closed down, we got the actual public-sector comparator done by the ’93, ’94, ’95 period; and of course the infrastructure deficit. PricewaterhouseCoopers. They told the government that building There has to be a balance there. I would suggest that we lost that the road using public financing could cost as little as $422.3 million balance and concentrated only on one area at that time. or as much as $487.3 million. So you see the scepticism. That’s The problem that that created – and I think the minister would very different than the conventional spin that it would cost $497 agree – is that now we are facing a massive infrastructure deficit, so million. All that’s lower when we get the results of the public-sector we’re playing catch-up. Unfortunately, when you do that, the catch- comparator. up becomes more expensive because now we’re into the boom I know that the minister says – and I’ll come to some of the economy. The minister alluded to it. We’re into the boom – questions on the Calgary ring road – that it’s not a debt if you’re shortages of labour, steel, and cement, I think, are things that he paying $32 million a year. Well, I understand the old saying: when talked about – but certainly when you’re in a boom, the costs go up. it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. It’s still We know that. money coming out of funding for the government in the 30 years 3:40 hence. We’d be paying $32 million on that Henday project over that It would have been much better to have at least balanced that off period of time. So in actual result that’s about a billion dollars that during the times early on in the ’90s. Some of these needed we’re going to be paying over a 30-year period. Now, I know that infrastructure projects would have come in much lower at that time. it’s convenient because it’s not going to be put on the government 300 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006 books as a debt, but the fact is that we’ll have to pay that every year until after construction is completed. These would be budgeted as for 30 years. operating expenses over the 30 year period.” The point is that we’re You know, I don’t tend to be a structural engineer, but it does still paying out of the taxpayers’ pockets there, Mr. Chairman. Just seem like a lot to build 11 kilometres and maintain 25 kilometres of to call that not a debt – maybe it’s not a debt on your books, and road. I contrast that, Mr. Chair, with the 14-kilometre southwest that’s probably what looks good, especially when you’re going for portion of the ring road which will open in 2006, and that cost $245 the leadership, you know, but it is a debt that we’ll have to pay over million using public financing. Now, admittedly, the southwest that period of time. portion won’t be built to the same level as this portion, but I think We have to look at those projects. The Henday is a billion-dollar there’s some comparison there. It doesn’t include crossing of the project because it’s a 30-year project. I really stress that I think the North Saskatchewan River and three major ravine crossings, and that private-sector people that get into these P3s know what they’re doing was done for the $245 million. Then, of course, we know that on and they’re going to make a lot of money on it. I still have never December 5 there was a report in the Edmonton Journal about some seen the advantage yet. I say, with all due respect to the minister, problem with the bridges, some changes to the bridges. I know that that with the figures we got from Henday and the differences that the minister will say that that’s going to be covered, but that is I’ve talked about, it leads to some skepticism. I think we have to do worrisome when that starts to happen right at the beginning of the better to lay it out so we can begin to understand the Calgary ring project. road. Certainly, it needs to be done, but I’ve never seen a case yet That’s my point, Mr. Chair: it’s hard to get a handle in terms of where P3s are the best way. these P3s. I’ve learned, having worked in the private sector, to Let me just conclude there. I just have one other question. We’re respect their expertise. I don’t think they’re going to P3s because getting a lot of ache about it from all over – and I know he is – about they want to do a favour for the taxpayers of Alberta, that they’re roads and because of the infrastructure deficit. The one is highways going to do it for less somehow. The profit motive is there. 63 and 28. I mean, this is a road that I think has special circum- I’d just like to go, then, very quickly, Mr. Chair, into the more stances because of the tar sands, and that seems to be our main thrust recent announcement flowing from that about the Calgary ring road. of our economic development. I think we should be speeding it up. I have here the news release, and it has questions and answers. One Now, I know we’ve announced some. I guess I’m trying to get a question is: “Why is a P3 being considered for this project?” Partly handle for people on how soon we could see the twinning between it says: “The project’s scope and lack of environmental and those two roads. What’s the time frame now, the latest time frame? geotechnical issues are other factors that favour the P3 process.” I’ve heard various estimates. Certainly, it’s being pushed by people Now, nobody knows what that means particularly. It probably in Fort McMurray for sure, that they would like this moved as means that it’s easier to build. That’s what I would think. quickly as possible because there’s going to be a lot of traffic on there. Dr. Oberg: It means that it’s flat land. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Martin: Yeah. Easier to build. Right. We wouldn’t want the The Deputy Chair: The hon. minister. private sector to have to do anything that’s more difficult. “What are the advantages of using a P3?” “One is the project Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I assume that could be built and in service two years earlier.” Second, it “would you will give me the same leeway to talk about things that are not in be completely free-flow” and so forth. What I don’t understand my interim supply that you just gave the hon. member to talk about about that is: if we put out a bid and said that this is what we want when it comes to P3s. and this is the time frame that we want, as we do in most other areas, why couldn’t you bid that and then build the conventional way? Just Mr. Martin: It’s in the department. put that as part of the bid system. It’s been done before. I don’t see why a P3 necessarily – if you put the same criteria there, why can’t Dr. Oberg: Actually, in all fairness it is not part of the interim you do it in the conventional way? – somehow you can do earlier. supply because the P3 has not been finalized in Calgary; therefore, If the companies want to bid on it and you have a certain time frame, it is not included in this budgetary item, but I will still talk about it. that’s the way it should be. Mr. Chair, a couple of things. The hon. member had talked about The other – and I know I got the answer in question period today the potential of the boom and the paying off of the deficit and debt. about the project cost – is: “Government will not release cost Absolutely, paying off the deficit and debt was the thing that we estimates until proposals are submitted to ensure a fair, competitive were elected for as government in this province. It was the thing bidding.” Well, this is a new way of doing it. that people wanted us to do in this province. It did result in, though, 3:50 some capital projects being put on the back burner. Subsequently, with the paying off of the deficit and the debt, we were able to start I’d sure like to know what sort of cost we’re looking at ahead of doing a lot of the projects that were out there. I think every hon. time rather than a month before. We may have, then, three hand- member in the Legislature has seen what projects are being done out picked groups bidding on it, but that’s very different than even the there right now. previous P3s that were advocated. I think one of the reasons we One of the things that we did not anticipate, though – and I could see for the Calgary courthouse and the rest of it is because we challenge anyone in this Assembly to say that they anticipated it – had some idea ahead of time. I really question that process. I think was the huge amount of growth in the oil sands that took place over that to be more transparent is always important, that we should see the last four to five years. The number of projects that have been that public-sector comparator ahead of time. announced, up to $130 billion, realistically was beyond the grasp of Then, I’ll come back to just this last. I’ve said it before. “Isn’t a anyone within the last 10 years. This is something that came out of P3 just another term for debt? No. The government is simply the blue. It’s a great news story. It’s wonderful. It’s a very positive paying for the project over a 30-year period rather than all at once. thing for the province of Alberta, but it’s not something that was The Alberta government would not start making annual payments anticipated five or six years ago, Mr. Chair. We are working hard to March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 301 recover. We are working hard to get the infrastructure and the have to take that accordion type of road out of there and they would transportation projects that are desperately needed in this province. have to fix it properly. The other issue, and one of the things that you really have to There’s also the reference made to the girders. Yeah, the girders remember, is that construction on infrastructure is about 7 to 8 per were not to our specifications. What they actually were was higher. cent of what is happening in the province as a whole. As a govern- They had actually put in higher specification girders. Our people ment we do not control the prices. It is the private sector and the picked it up and subsequently looked at it and gave them the huge private-sector projects that are out there that actually control opportunity to prove that they were higher, and yes, indeed, they the prices. Unfortunately, we have to follow along because we have actually were a higher specification. The rationale for that was to compete with these prices as well. because the contractors felt that it would lead to less maintenance The hon. member went on about the cost of the Anthony Henday, down the road if they built it to a higher quality than what our and I will give him an example. He was wondering about the specifications and standards actually were. We tend to see that on massive cost of $493 million. The city of Edmonton is looking at P3s as well. doing an interchange on highway 2 and 23rd Avenue. As the hon. 4:00 member may or may not know, the price of that interchange is now up very close to $140 million for one interchange on highway 2 and The other issue: highway 63. Again, this is a very good example 23rd Avenue. It’s absolutely massive what has happened to the because with highway 63 I am having to take money out of my amounts of these projects. It’s $120 million to $140 million, so it’s budget. I’m potentially having to reprofile it. Hopefully, I won’t. very huge. It’s very significant. When you take into consideration Hopefully, the Finance minister will have mercy on me and not that on the 20 or so kilometres of lane on the Anthony Henday we make me reprofile it. Ultimately, I may have to reprofile it. The key have 24 bridges that are in place on that road at $493 million, it puts is that I have to do all of these things because I have to come up with it into context, Mr. Chair. Obviously, it’s a lot of money; $493 the money in the three or four years. I have to come up with the million is a lot of money. cash dollars in three or four years to ensure that that road gets done. The other issue that occurred when it came to the P3 and the It is a very high priority for the citizens of Alberta, not just the Anthony Henday – and this ties into the P3 in the Calgary project – citizens of Fort McMurray, so I am attempting to do it in whatever is quite simply that the public-sector comparator, the $300 million, fashion I can. If it was a P3 – and it’s not a P3 for some specific was put out before the scope of the project was actually finalized. reasons – then I would be paying for that over 30 years, and I would It was put out about a year to two years before, and it was purely an not have to come up with all of that money. I would not have to estimation at that time of what the costs would be to build that road. reprofile it all at once. It was an estimation. What then occurred over the next 14 to 16 The other issue – and I’ll use the Anthony Henday as an example months, in which case the private companies went out and actually – is that because we’re paying for that over 30 years, because the put in the bids, is that we upgraded the scope of the project. We $500 million is spaced out over the 30 years, it gives me the ability upgraded the potential for appreciation in the project, and we built to deal with the rest of the infrastructure deficit that is occurring in that in. The public-sector comparator states that we typically build Alberta. Quite simply, if I had to take $500 million and pay that in a 10 per cent contingency, and that 10 per cent contingency would cash up front, which is a conventional form of financing, we would be on top of the roughly $478 million, $475 million public-sector not be able to do it. We have felt, and I certainly feel and I certainly comparator. agree, that the P3 proposal, the risk assumption, the maintenance, the We’re not going to make that mistake this time, Mr. Chair. We’re higher standards: all of this is a very positive way to do it. But I do going to come forward at exactly the same time in exactly the same not have blinders on. That’s why we’re doing a public-sector market conditions as what the private sector is going to do, and comparator. That’s why we’re looking at the process. That’s why we’re going to compare the bids. When you enter into a P3 – and I we’re looking at the bids. We will determine if it is indeed a good don’t want to leave the impression here that we are philosophically deal for the taxpayers of Alberta. or ideologically driven by a P3. Quite simply, if it is a good deal, we Just for your information as well, this is exactly what the Auditor will do it; if it is not a good deal, we won’t do it. We don’t have General stated when he looked at our budget. He said that P3s have blinders on that say that a P3 is the only way we’re going to do it. to be considered, that they should be considered, that the process We are conventionally financing many more projects than we are should be so that it’s a real public-sector comparator so that the doing as the P3s. So I think that is a significant issue. public-sector comparator comes out at the same time that the bids There’s one other response that I think people really have to think are open. So we are quite simply following the process and the about, and that is: when we conventionally finance, it is the private recommendations of the Auditor General. sector that builds the roads. It is the private sector that builds in The hon. member makes an excellent point when it comes to what profit into that particular contract as well. There is profit in the happened in Nova Scotia, and one of the things that I am attempting private sector when they build our roads, when we get the tenders in to ensure is that that absolutely will not happen here. We have seen for our roads. On a P3 one of the advantages that we have quite what occurred in Nova Scotia. We have seen what befell some of simply is that the risk assumption is all on the private sector. For the P3s before, and we’re attempting to go around that. But, again, example, if a bridge collapses – hopefully, it would never collapse, if it is not in line with our public-sector comparator, quite simply, we but if there is something wrong with the bridge, in the next 30 years will conventionally finance it. It will take longer because I will not it is the responsibility of that consortium to ensure that it’s fixed. be able to take X number of dollars out of my budget and simply They have the liability if something happens to that road over the build that road. It’s going to take a longer time. It may not be a next 30 years. road that is completely finished, with all the interchanges, because In a conventional financing method we typically get a guarantee we will be scrimping and saving and potentially using that inter- of one to two years. The hon. member prior to this talked about the change money somewhere else. roughness in the road on highway 2 under the interchange. Well, I don’t think anyone here, especially those members who are from because we conventionally financed it, we have a year to two years Calgary, wants another road such as the Stoney Trail NW, where of a guarantee. If this was on a P3 project, for 30 years they would there are going to be some lights. We want it free-flowing; we want 302 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006 to keep the traffic moving. For anyone who has been in Calgary in Of course, part of the infrastructure deficit has been exasperated, the last while, you know what it’s like not to have free-flowing or exacerbated – exasperated if you’re stuck in traffic on the traffic on the Deerfoot Trail, where in essence, in many ways you’re Deerfoot – by the fact that we’ve had so much economic growth and sitting there for a period of time, 15 minutes to half an hour to three- so much population growth in this province over the last dozen quarters of an hour, in absolute gridlock. years. I wonder if the minister on behalf of both departments could give me an indication with each budget here, with each interim An Hon. Member: A slow-moving parking lot. estimate: how much is for the kinds of once-per-year expenditures that the Finance minister was talking about in the house earlier this Dr. Oberg: Yeah, a slow-moving parking lot. Absolutely. week, and how much is for ongoing expenses? So it’s imperative for the citizens of Calgary that we get that road Then I’d like a sense of why it is that we can’t bring those done as quickly, as quickly as possible, and that’s what we’re numbers more in line with the fiscal year. I mean, budget day is endeavouring to do with this. going to be, as the Finance minister announced I think yesterday, Just in my final comment I would ask the hon. members, when Wednesday, March 22. Yes, there is a set period of time to debate they’re driving to and fro on highway 2, to take a look at the huge the budget. Nevertheless, we’re not far off the beginning of the next amount of progress that has been done on the Anthony Henday fiscal year, I would think, before we’ve completed debate on the because of the winter. We may well be significantly ahead of budget. The question that always nags at my mind – and maybe I schedule when it comes to opening that road because of this winter. should be directing this to the Finance minister as well – is why it is The roadway, the overpasses are looking absolutely excellent, and that her department can’t get an earlier start on the budget and have I think it’s going to be a great deal. it ready in time for us to debate and vote on, carry through the Lastly, the other key component to this is that I can tell you and process, and have it in place with or without amendments in time for I can tell this Assembly when that road is going to be done. That the beginning of the new fiscal year. road will be done in October of 2007 because, quite simply, if it is Back to the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation for a not, on November 1, 2007, there will be a million dollar penalty. On moment, if I can, I wonder if within the context of the $362 million December 1, 2007, there will be a million dollar penalty. And so on in interim supply estimates for Advanced Education he can tell me and so on. if any of that money and, if so, how much of it is going towards So I believe it is a good deal, and I believe it’s something that we actual infrastructure issues within the Ministry of Advanced need to continue on, but we will take a very close look and ensure Education. According to the throne speech I think that there were 47 that it is in the range with the public-sector comparator, Mr. capital projects in Advanced Education planned or under way. I’d Chairman. like some sense of what those are and how those are proceeding. The Deputy Chair: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. 4:10 I think I’ll leave it at that because I know that the minister wants Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m going to combine a to respond; perhaps the Finance minister does too. I know that we couple of different departments here, if I could, and direct my have other speakers, and time is always of the essence. questions to the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation Thank you, Mr. Chairman. because I know that he has also today graciously agreed to answer questions as he can on the interim estimates for Advanced Educa- The Deputy Chair: The hon. minister. tion. So if I can kill two birds with one stone and ask a couple of questions in both of those areas. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Very briefly, I’ll I see that we’re looking at $1,040,000,000 for Infrastructure and reiterate. The hon. member may not have heard what I initially said Transportation to get us through the next two months and some- about Infrastructure and Transportation and the initial breakdown. where less, $362 million, for Advanced Education to get us through In essence, there is $400 million which is for the municipal partner- from the beginning of April to the end of May. As always, because ship grants. So $400 million out of this slightly over $1 billion is the document that we’re provided with, of course, the 2006-2007 grants that go out at the beginning of the year. These are not grants Interim Supply Estimates, is just a series of line items in a budget, that are prorated on a monthly basis. They’re grants that go out I’m always curious as to what we’re actually spending the money specifically at the beginning of the year. There’s another $25 on, cognizant of the fact that as the Finance minister said in the million there for capital and accommodation projects. These are, in House the other day, this is not a straightforward one-sixth of the essence, leases and lease upgrades that we are on the hook for, that budget for each department, that there are certain expenditures that we have to follow through with. There’s no way around that. have to be undertaken at this time that cover you off for year-end Mr. Chair, the other $400 million on the operating side is for the and so on and so forth. How much of this in both departments really running of the department. It’s for wages. It’s for salaries. It’s for constitutes this sort of once-per-year expenditures, and how much is equipment. It’s for all the things that it takes to keep my department ongoing funding to keep the lights on and the employees paid and so running. on and so forth for the next two months? You have to recognize that for my particular department these are The numbers, of course, are huge, and they do cover one-sixth of probably the busiest two months of the year. April and May are the operating fiscal year for both departments. Infrastructure and probably the busiest two months purely because it’s the start of the Transportation, obviously, is a special case these days because we construction season, and we are working very hard on that. There’s are trying to address the considerable infrastructure deficit that has $207.4 million, Mr. Chair, that is there for capital projects. This is been built up in this province over the last 13 years, an infrastructure quite simply paying for the work that is being done. deficit caused in part by the government’s decision to make paying So that is what is included in my departmental estimates. off the debt the priority. I know that the government feels that that On the Advanced Education side there is roughly $344 million in was the direction it was given from the people of Alberta. Neverthe- operating expenses. If I may, I’ll just break it down for you here. less, we ended up with the mortgage paid off on a house with a leaky The ministry support services is around $3.4 million; the program roof. March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 303 delivery support is about $6.6 million. These first two are actually time this was discussed, there was going to be, at least at this point, staffing. Program delivery and ministry support are staffing, so in the possibility of a single access via 90th. The people of the essence these are salaries paid to people for those two months. communities were concerned about a double access. I know There’s assistance to the postsecondary institutions. These are the Alderman Erskine did his best in terms of sending out a series of grants that go to the institutions so that they can pay their staff and surveys and holding a number of public meetings about these so that they can do the things that they do, and that’s $266 million. concerns. I hope that that gets resolved. In direct response to the hon. member’s question, there’s 45 and a I agree very much with planners from both the province and the half million dollars for the infrastructure capital for postsecondary city that in order to be able to decide on future routes, we have to institutions. acquire the land now. There’s no doubt about that. The city would There’s also another $17.7 million for support to postsecondary completely be frozen if we didn’t have the land for those alterna- learners. What that is is student loans as well as scholarships and tives. Again, this sort of relates because a little further down that bursaries. There are scholarships and bursaries that are determined road to the north is the Tsuu T’ina Nation, and they have a large say. and paid out during that time frame. There’s also another $17.4 I’m very concerned as the critic not only for Infrastructure and million that is nonbudgetary disbursements, and this has to do with Transportation but in my role as the critic for parks and protected the student loan component of it. These are nonbudgetary disburse- areas. I’m hoping that the details for the crossing of the Elbow ments that must go out to students. These are for people that are River will be forthcoming. I’ve talked about the wonderful bridge receiving their student loan payments. The apprenticeship delivery: we have across the Bow on that particular stretch of the ring road. 4 and a half million dollars. I’ve indicated that from a passage of animals, birds, people, et Again, as I say, that is simply paying the wages of the people that cetera, and from a noise level, I’d rather have the noise sort of above are there and paying the wages of the department. and beyond than concentrated. I’ve also indicated that for move- So, Mr. Chair, I feel that although I am reading what the hon. ments I don’t want a low bridge which impedes the transition of Minister of Advanced Education – I do have a slight bit of knowl- animals and humans within the Weaselhead park wildlife conserva- edge of what occurs in Advanced Education, and I really have tion area. So if you have any details, Mr. Minister, with regard to absolutely no problems with this. We have to keep our advanced the bridge and its construction, that would be very much appreciated. education institutions running. We have to keep the learning system I know that there are a number of people in Calgary who are running. Quite simply, if we went for two months before we concerned about the preserving of that wildlife area. received the budget and shut down, it would be catastrophic indeed. The other part. Possibly the minister will discuss this. It seems I know that it is not the intent of the hon. opposition to shut down that the Premier does not want the surplus dollars to be debated in the postsecondary system. this House. In his belief the surplus, for whatever reason, is solely So that’s the breakdown. I’d be more than happy to answer any the responsibility of the government to decide how it should be other questions on it, Mr. Chair. expended. The government has talked about a three-part plan. Please, Minister of Finance or minister of infrastructure, correct me The Deputy Chair: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. if I’m wrong, but it seemed to me that the gist of that plan was that one-third of it was supposed to go into savings. What has happened Mr. Chase: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. A series of questions. is that we put $1 billion in, and then we took $2 billion out, so I’m I asked earlier in the House as to where our infrastructure debt or not clear about how the surplus can go to resolving the infrastructure deficit stood, and the minister responded, I believe, that it was problem. somewhere around $7.2 billion or $7.4 billion. So it’s an extremely 4:20 large deficit. At one point the minister suggested what I was a little bit concerned about, trading one sort of debt for another, and that Again, possibly I misinterpreted, but I thought the second third of was the possibility of borrowing to eliminate this current deficit. the whole would be to pay down infrastructure. My understanding Like the minister I very much wanted to see this deficit removed, but is that approximately $2.2 billion or thereabouts would be put into since that initial thought I’m just wondering if he could share other paying down the infrastructure debt or financing future infrastructure solutions in terms of a year-by-year payoff, a percentage of the projects. Then the third, that I have the most degree of difficulty surplus or whatever, that may have come up. with – and I’m sure there are members opposite who have difficulty The minister is well aware that I see P3s as a gamble, and I think as well – is that there seems to be the third which the Premier has he does in a sense as well. We’re basically gambling with P3s that granted to himself as whatever he sees fit. Last year, in his wisdom, our short-term gain, the money we save up front in cost overruns, he saw fit to go with $1.4 billion in terms of $400 one-time rebates. will not be cancelled by the long-term pain of 30 years of fluctuating An area that I praise him for seeing fit – I just would like to have interest rates that we have no control over. My feeling is that we been a part of the discussion – is the $1 billion in terms of support- should be paying for things with the money we currently have and ing cancer. The last I heard was that that $1 billion is now a half not putting our future, our children and grandchildren, further into billion, and I’m not sure how that billion translates directly into debt. infrastructure support; for example, the Tom Baker cancer institute I would like to get an update, if it’s possible, on how we’re and whether it’s going to be relocated, added to, or just what the coming along with the Tsuu T’ina land acquisitions. I’m wondering possibilities are. specifically: will we ever know – or when will we know, not will we The Liberals have put out and stuck to recommending a plan for ever. I hope we’ll know at a defined time. When will we know how the surplus which would see 35 per cent of all future surpluses put much we’re paying provincially for land acquisition for the Tsuu into a postsecondary endowment fund so that we would have steady T’ina land to run the ring road through? funding in addition to general revenue. We also recommended the There’s been a lot of discussion held at the city of Calgary, which idea of 25 per cent into infrastructure projects, and ideally there is is where it should happen because this is going to be impacting the the balance between paying down our current infrastructure debt and city, as to whether we should have two entrances to the reserve via allowing for future growth. I tend to be, in this case, somewhat Southland Drive and 90th Avenue. My understanding is that the last fiscally conservative because I would like to see that infrastructure 304 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006 debt dealt with, but I’m very aware of the demand for a whole amended the act so that it could be tax free. That’s the other one that variety of areas: the 60,000 new spaces at the postsecondary by needs to be corrected. 2020; the 15,000 by 2008. Obviously, if we’re going to create those So all I ask is that we get the facts right and that we use them in spaces, which are great investments, we have to balance the paying the right manner. I try to be straightforward. I try to give you the off of the infrastructure debt and the creating of the new spaces. answers. When I go out and about, which I do, and I’m told that This is extremely important. these things are being said, I say: well, they must have misunder- Calgary is without 40 schools in its suburban areas, and the flawed stood. You know what? I’m not going to say that anymore because formula is causing inner-city schools and programs to be closed, but we’re having the conversation. These are the facts. there’s no payoff in the sense that very few new schools are You can criticize the fact that we may make a decision to sprouting up in suburban areas. So I have concern about paying for recommend that the Foothills hospital, the Rockyview hospital, the those schools and, again, balancing the debt and the need for the new Peter Lougheed hospital, and the Children’s hospital or whatever growth. other institution gets X number of dollars of funding between budget We have recommended that 35 per cent of all future surpluses be cycles, but until that supplementary estimate is debated in this saved, and that’s a pretty clear statement. Basically, whatever our Legislature and passed, that, in fact, does not happen. As I say – let surplus is from here on into the future, one-third of it would be me make it clear – if this House decided not to approve that saved. It wouldn’t be an in-out process. It would stay in. Endow- estimate, that project would not proceed. So I want to make that ment funds would be created. clear. Lastly, because we have a concern and, unfortunately, we have no The other one that I wanted to just clarify for the hon. member is ministry for arts and culture, we would see 5 per cent of all future on the heritage fund and the $1 billion investment and why we just surpluses expended for arts and culture. Our idea is to build up a take the money out. I did explain at the time that it was necessary $500 million endowment fund, which would support a variety of because it would require a change in the legislation, and we wanted activities: dance, theatre, enticing individuals to expend their money to put those dollars in the fund. We have the option of making an on filming in this province. What it would do is provide a set amendment to that legislation and not flowing the funds. The amount of money that people could depend upon. All they would difficulty that I have with doing that at this point is that we count on have to do is look at their portions of general revenue and then top that some 1 billion dollars of revenue from the fund for program- it up by the amount in the endowment funds that would be set. As ming spending. If you didn’t have that money in a year, if your soon as we had a surplus figure, you’d know that these groups were surpluses were not there, I would have to find $1.2 billion or $1.1 able to participate in this endowment fund. billion or $950 million, whatever it was in that particular year of the I look forward to whatever answers the hon. Minister of Infra- investment, out of program. Well, Health, Education, and Advanced structure and Transportation can provide. A lot of this money is Education take well over 60 per cent of our budget. You know hopefully going to be expended in the Calgary area. As well, we’re where you’d have to go because the small departments simply don’t having the problems with the water treatment plants. I know it’s a have it. balance act, and I very much appreciate that you and your caucus are So until we can be sure that we have a reliable revenue stream to making hard decisions. How do you pay down the deficit? How do satisfy our program expenditures that have to occur for needed you maintain the growth? services, I would be somewhat reluctant to make that change yet. I Thank you. I look forward to your answers. am not reluctant to put the billion dollars of monies that are surplus to our needs into that heritage fund. That stays as a permanent part The Deputy Chair: Hon. Minister of Finance, did you want to of the fund, and we will realize the investment off that fund. Those supplement answers? dollars, again, can be used for well-needed projects. I’m open to the idea, but it’s a little like health premiums and Mrs. McClellan: Can I just clarify – the hon. member may not have education property taxes. You have to replace the money. You heard my comments at supplementary estimates – on two points know, you just simply do. And that’s a tough question to answer. only? On the unbudgeted surplus, hon. members, please do not say We want sustainability. I’ve been here when we had to reduce that these are not debated by the Legislature. They are. No money budgets. It is not a pleasant experience. It is not easy to ask our is expended until it is passed through this Legislature. This is, in public service, as we did, to take a 5 per cent reduction, to have to fact, a fact. In fact, a fact. I have been quite quiet about correcting lay off valued employees in all of those services. So we want to this, but I won’t be in the future. The fact is that while you may say make sure that we can sustain those needed expenditures. I look that we are going to put out $1.3 billion in health projects in a forward to that debate in the budget as to how we could spend those quarter, which nobody, I think, would deny were needed, particu- dollars better. I’m always looking for ways to do that. But I did larly the MLAs in Calgary as I think four hospitals were affected by want to make that comment. that announcement, and they know they need the space, and they 4:30 want them done. But, in fact, until that supplementary estimate came into this House and was approved by this House, those dollars We did not make a definitive decision on surpluses as to a did not flow. Frankly, if the House turned it down, the project percentage. I’ve said that while there’s a fair amount of value in would not go. I want to make that clear. looking at a third/a third/a third – maybe that’s the right number. So please understand that while we may make a decision on a Maybe it’s 20-40-40. Maybe it’s 25-50-25. I don’t know. We can project’s recommendation . . . debate that. But for the past year, because of the infrastructure needs that we had with the capital requirements with the heavy growth Mr. MacDonald: What about the prosperity bonus? we’re experiencing, we did not want to tie ourselves to that, understanding that there were some very high capital needs out there Mrs. McClellan: That was in the House. In fact, I had to amend the that had to be looked at. But we did make the commitment that the act. The member is asking about the prosperity bonus, as he called unbudgeted surplus, or the monies that are surplus to our ongoing it. If you were in the House, you were part of the debate where I operating needs, would be spent in three ways: smart spending – March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 305 that’s what we consider capital investment, as an example; giving The hon. member also asked about the bridge. I don’t have the back – that can be a rebate cheque, it could be a tax reduction, it exact structural details of the bridge, but we are very cognizant of could be a number of ways that you give back to the citizens; and, the Weaselhead, and we’re doing everything we can to ensure that of course, endowments and savings. the Weaselhead is protected. We will be having full environmental I’m very proud of the fact that this year we’ve been able to put impact studies over that area to ensure that there is no or at least $750 million into our access to the future endowment – that’s great; very, very minimal environmental impact. Any time you have a I’ll be even more thrilled when that’s fully funded – that we were freeway going through an area, realistically there is going to be some able to add funding to our tremendously successful Alberta Heritage environmental impact. We wanted to keep to a managed environ- Foundation for Medical Research to raise that, to add dollars to our mental impact, and we want to ensure that it is done for the better- scholarship fund and, of course, to the ingenuity fund or the science ment of the citizens of Calgary. and engineering fund. So those are great investments. I look The other comments that the hon. member made were about P3s, forward to our being able to add to those and fully fund them in the and I really believe that much of the comments – you can probably future. read in Hansard – were to deal with my comments prior to this. I just wanted to clarify those two points for the hon. member So with that, I would sit down. Madam Chair, I understand that because I think he asked the questions with an actual interest in I am also doing the estimates for the Department of Health and knowing the answers. So thank you very much. Wellness, so with your concurrence, I would start there, if that’s okay with the opposition. The Deputy Chair: The hon. Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation. The Acting Chair: I’m sorry, but I also still have Edmonton-Gold Bar on my list. Would the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. First, just to very like to speak on this before we move on? quickly deal with some of the questions that were just raised. The land for the Tsuu T’ina, the cost of land: our appraiser will be in Mr. MacDonald: Madam Chairperson, no. If the hon. member, in somewhere between April 15 and May 15, somewhere in that time light of the time, would like to get started, that’s fine. frame. The advantage that we’ve had in dealing with the Tsuu T’ina Thank you. is that we were able to agree actually on one appraiser, which has shortened up the time frame quite considerably because typically The Acting Chair: Okay. The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. what occurred in the past is that we would pick an appraiser, the Tsuu T’ina would pick an appraiser, and then there would be a third Ms Pastoor: Thank you. I’ll be very quick. I just wanted to have appraiser who would take those two appraisals and decide which one a small conversation. We’ve all heard how you’re juggling the is actually correct. We were able to agree on the same appraiser, so money, but I happen to come from outside of the magic corridor of we hope to have that between April 15 and May 15. There were Calgary-Edmonton and the other magic city of Fort McMurray, and some delays in doing that, in getting the actual assessed value and I’m worried about highway 3. I’m not sure that putting passing the assessed amount, but I met with the chief last week and I lanes is the answer, and I’m just hoping that you haven’t juggled understand that everything is under control on that now. money out of that project, which probably isn’t good to begin with We are working as fast as we can on the Tsuu T’ina. We’re – it really needs to be twinned – to help the other part of the attempting to get all of the details in place. There still are some province. Yeah, we seem to be out of that loop, and I want to make details that are outstanding, but we’re fully confident that everything sure that we stay in it. is moving forward as opposed to moving back. One of the big kickers in all of this, though, is that whatever we do, whatever we Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much. Madam Chair, I just want to decide on does have to be taken to the federal government because assure the hon. member that Lethbridge is always in our hearts in any time you get a change in the reserve land, it has to be taken to this government, especially considering that the newest city in the federal government. It does have to have their approval. It has Alberta, Brooks, is very close to Lethbridge as well. So it’s always to have full environmental impacts as well. So all of these things in our thoughts, it’s always on our minds, and it’s always in our have to occur prior to this project moving ahead. hearts. But I can stand here today and say that I’m very confident that we In saying that, though, Madam Chair, there are a couple of things will get this done. I’m very confident that this will be seen through that are very interesting on highway 3. The hon. member is to its conclusion, and I have nothing but praise for what the members absolutely right: we’re going to be putting in roughly 24 kilometres of the Tsuu T’ina band have done. They have been excellent to deal of passing lanes, which is going to alleviate the problem. It is not with, and I have absolutely no issues with how things are being going to solve the problem. done. We’re working together as fast as we can to get this in place, There are several issues when it comes to highway 3. First and and we hope to have it done very, very soon. foremost, when it comes to the actual transportation down highway However, as I stated, it still is very much in the federal govern- 3, the biggest bottleneck is in the Crowsnest Pass. That’s why we’re ment’s hands as to what does or does not occur, but I’m very concentrating on doing that first and foremost in Crowsnest Pass, to confident that if Tsuu T’ina and if myself and the government of get a satisfactory route through the Crowsnest Pass. There have Alberta go forward to the federal government, they won’t say no. been a lot of representations made to us about the south side of the Failing that, I’ve just heard that the Prime Minister is actually from valley and how that is not – I stress: is not – a route that we should Calgary, and I don’t really think that he would want all the people be undertaking because of the watershed and all sorts of other issues. from Calgary writing him a letter stating that they did not want this So we’re currently doing the engineering on going through widening ring road. So it certainly, I believe, is going to go full tilt and should the existing road, making it four lanes, trying to get the speed limit be there. up to around 80 kilometres. Because of the location of the road I don’t believe that we can get it up to 100, 110, 130 kilometres. I [Mrs. Ady in the chair] think, quite simply, that it would take too many houses if we were 306 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006 to do that, and there is not a wide enough valley; there’s not room Infrastructure and Transportation enough to do that with the road. Agreed to: 4:40 Expense and Equipment/Inventory Purchases $832,400,000 Capital Investment $207,800,000 The second area that needs to be addressed on highway 3 is actually the bypass around Fort Macleod. I think that for the people The Acting Chair: Shall the vote be reported? who live in Fort Macleod, this is a critical issue because Fort Macleod is one of the few communities in Alberta that has actually Hon. Members: Agreed. seen a decline in its population. Subsequently, one of the issues that has been brought to my attention is that people are not planning The Acting Chair: Opposed? Carried. businesses there because they are afraid that the traffic is all going So we’ll now turn it over to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure and to route around, and they want to see ultimately where that routing Transportation on Health and Wellness estimates. will take place and when that routing will take place. So I feel that this is certainly a priority as well. Dr. Oberg: If I may just add a point of clarification: it was my Travelling east, there are significant other priorities on highway understanding that we had also done the Advanced Education 3 also. Probably the next biggest one is right around Medicine Hat. estimates. What we have around Medicine Hat is highway 3 that kind of weaves around the airport, which limits the length of runway of the The Acting Chair: So we need to vote on those? Okay. airport in Medicine Hat. It also causes a great deal of consternation because all the traffic that goes through highway 3, which, by the Advanced Education way, is our number one route for transportation to the west coast, Agreed to: now goes right through Medicine Hat as opposed to a bypass. So Expense and Equipment/Inventory Purchases $344,700,000 we’re currently looking at how we can bypass Medicine Hat. This Nonbudgetary Disbursements $17,400,000 is with the direct concurrence of the mayor and the MLAs with respect to Medicine Hat, and everyone is in favour of this. The Acting Chair: Shall the vote be reported? So those tend to be our priorities on highway 3. As the hon. member, I’m hoping, can tell, we have actually spent a fair amount Hon. Members: Agreed. of time on designing highway 3, and it is not out of our thoughts. It is a very important, critical transportation corridor and part of the The Acting Chair: Opposed? Carried. supply chain. The route out to Vancouver is an essential component for businesses in Alberta. Health and Wellness

The Acting Chair: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. The Acting Chair: The hon. Minister of Infrastructure and Trans- portation. Ms Pastoor: Thank you. If I might have a supplemental. You didn’t give me a time frame on that. I realize that a lot of work has Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. It’s my been done on it. pleasure on behalf of the Minister of Health and Wellness to present The other thing: is not the land already gazetted for the Canamex the estimates for interim supply. highway? How does that affect around Fort Macleod? I believe that Madam Chairman, what you have before you is just a huge land is already gazetted. amount of dollars. It’s $2.2917 billion – and I said billion – that we’re dealing with today. This is roughly 39 per cent of all the total The Acting Chair: Time. interim supply estimates that are before us today. This is very similar to my department, the Department of Infrastructure and Dr. Oberg: If I may, Madam Chair. The land is gazetted. We know Transportation. It’s quite simply to keep the departments going, to where it is. But what is happening in Fort Macleod is: quite simply, keep the physicians being paid, to keep the regional health authori- they want to know when it is going to occur. What I’m attempting ties being paid, to keep the health authorities as well as the Health to do is move up these projects. I gave you the priorities of how I and Wellness staff being paid, to keep the drug supplies being given see the projects unfolding on highway 3, and I think there’s a fair out to patients. amount of rationale for that. There’s no point in making a good Madam Chair, I would be more than happy to take any questions trade corridor and then have it bottleneck in the Crowsnest Pass. from the hon. members. Any questions that I cannot answer, I will So that tends to be the direction we’re going. It is contingent on certainly pass on to the Minister of Health and Wellness. But this is budgetary constraints. The budget will be occurring within the next a very critical issue. I don’t think anyone – anyone – in this couple of weeks, and we’ll be able to talk more about it at that time. Assembly would want to see the Department of Health and Wellness But these are certainly our high priorities in the government of not have any money for two months, and therefore I would urge all Alberta and, I’m sure, with all citizens of Alberta, especially those of us to pass this in a very expeditious fashion. citizens in the southern part of the province, although because of the incredible importance of the supply chain, it should be of incredible The Acting Chair: The hon. Member for Calgary-Mountain View. importance to everyone in Alberta. Dr. Swann: Thank you, Madam Chairman. It’s a pleasure to rise on The Acting Chair: Okay. Seeing no other speakers, does the interim supply estimates for 2006-07 in relation to Health. I committee wish to vote on the estimates for Infrastructure and appreciate that this is the number one concern of Albertans and that Transportation before we proceed to the estimates on Health and it’s important that there be no glitch, no holdup in the ongoing Wellness? Seeing no one standing, I will go ahead then. functioning of a very complex system, for which we are accountable. March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 307

I would like to ask a few questions around where we are spending on patients and listening to them are aghast when there are so many the dollars and how well we are spending the dollars, again with MRIs that are ordered today. However, medicine must move on, specific focus on new technology, on how well we’re assessing the and technology must move on, but I certainly hope that the art of importance of new technology, and whether it’s appropriately used. medicine also continues to move on and also continues to be a viable I’ve heard stories among my colleagues where, for example, full focus. body MRI scans are being given at office parties as a gift or at an The key point here, though, when we talk about new technologies auction sale. It’s clear to me that in some areas our technology is and when we talk about – and I believe the hon. member used the not being used appropriately, and while there may be relatively few term – medical evidence and oversight, is that that is the college of risks associated with the use of MRIs, there are certainly those that physicians’ role and responsibility. It is not for anyone in this are constrained in their appropriate use by not being able to access Legislative Assembly, it is not for anyone in the bureaucracy of the private MRI system. If we have that kind of promotion of an health care to determine whether or not a medical procedure is a MRI scan, and indeed some of the inappropriate private use of MRIs viable procedure. It is up to the College of Physicians and Surgeons just because people can afford to pay it, it suggests to me, then, that and the medical fraternity to determine if, indeed, it is a viable we are not serving Albertans in terms of setting standards and procedure. ensuring that the technology, first of all, is needed and then, Subsequently the college – for example, on total body MRI scans, secondly, is used only in appropriate settings. I know that we have as was brought up – certainly has the ability to say that that is not a the technology assessment program, and I just wonder whether there medically safe procedure and to cause charges to be brought against is sufficient medical evidence and oversight to allow us to make a particular physician who advocates for that. They have chosen not good, long-term decisions about the new technology. to. I am not specifically up on the research on total body MRIs, but We’re also concerned on this side about the continued lack of there is a body of evidence that is showing that the risk of a total investment of our health budget in prevention. We continue to body MRI and the potential of finding something that is wrong, such spend over 95 per cent of our dollars in health care in identifying and as a cancer, may or may not weigh each other out, may or may not treating disease and injury. I was gratified to see some of the new count each other out. I think that in the next five to 10 to 15 to 20 investment in mental health, and hopefully this can be directed at years you may well see a complete change in philosophy when it some of the determinants of mental health, at the preventive side of comes to things like total body MRIs, but I’m only speaking today mental health, especially our disadvantaged population, and the with respect to that. increased risk of addictions, of mental health problems, and how Lack of investment in prevention: what we do have to remember much we could by early intervention in childhood and family issues is that 5 to 10 per cent of the budget is being spent on prevention reduce the demands on the health care system. That continues to be today, and it’s a huge amount of dollars. Mental health work: a lot an issue that will plague the ongoing increases in health care budgets of that work is in prevention. A lot of the community health services if we fail to invest appropriately in prevention and keep it under 5 are in prevention. Wouldn’t it be a wonderful world if we didn’t per cent of most health authorities’ budgets, as it is today. have any disease at all, if it was all preventable? Absolutely. 4:50 There’s no question about that, but we do have to treat acute cases. When someone comes in with a broken arm, we can’t simply say: It’s also clear that the public are expressing a commitment to well, sorry; you should have prevented it. It has to be fixed. It has publicly funded health care. We are deluged by phone calls and to be set. It has to have the procedures done on it. So we do have letters on this side about the proposed privatization option that will to be realistic when it comes to health care. We can’t simply say suck resources and staffing, suck physicians out of rural areas, that all diseases could have been prevented because, in all fairness potentially, into more lucrative practices in the cities. People are and honesty, many of them could not have been prevented, could not very concerned about this, and if government members are not have been identified, and subsequently their course changed. hearing these same messages, I hope they’re actively soliciting The other comment that I will make is very simply with respect to feedback from constituents who are concerned about the importance the physicians in rural areas. I am probably the most qualified of uniform access and the clear direction for medically necessary person in this Assembly to talk about physicians in rural areas, for services that we’re all looking for. reasons that shall remain anonymous. I will simply say that when it Those are the essence of my concerns, Madam Chairman, and I’ll comes to the potential for privatization, the potential for a different wait to see if there are some offered answers. payment system, those physicians that are in rural Alberta make significantly more money than those physicians in urban Alberta. I The Acting Chair: The hon. Minister of Infrastructure and Trans- think that that is something that you have to remember and recognize portation. and the difference is very, very significant. The issue when it comes down to physicians in the rural areas is Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. It’s not very not a monetary issue; it is a lifestyle issue. Because you’re on call often that I actually get to answer these questions, so I will take a significant amount of time, because you’re on call for large some delight in answering these today. amounts of time, that tends to be what the issue is. It is not a Madam Chair, the hon. member has a very good point when he remuneration issue. talks about assessing new technologies. One of the huge costs in Madam Chair, with that, I believe I’ve answered the majority of health care right now and right today is new technology. Much of questions that have been put forward by the hon. member, and I’d be it, in all fairness to the people who have brought forward technology, pleased to answer more. is of dubious benefit. It may well have some benefit, but it is not necessarily the be-all and end-all, and I will use MRIs as an The Acting Chair: Thank you. example. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. What we have to keep remembering and have to keep focusing on is that the MRI is a diagnostic tool. It is simply a diagnostic tool. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m pleased to rise and make Those of us who actually used to diagnose things by putting hands a few observations on the interim supply estimates for the Depart- 308 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006 ment of Health and Wellness. I have a few questions that I would have in medicine today, and there really does need to be an adequate like to ask the minister of infrastructure, who happens to be, luckily evaluation of the cost-effectiveness of some of these procedures. It’s for us today, also a physician. very difficult to do, but there does need to be a push in that direction. Madam Chair, the comments made here on the use and abuse of I had already reminisced about the art of medicine. It’s probably technology: it’s an important issue. Technology, new technologies long gone from my body at this particular point in time, but I have – you know, that just because they’re there, therefore they should be reminisced about that. Technology is something that we have to be used – I think is an important issue when we are talking about constantly aware of, and we have to be constantly vigilant to ensure controlling costs and preventing harm from the excessive use, that the technology is actually an improvement and is improving the unnecessary use of some of the diagnostic technologies. I think both health of Albertans as opposed to just technology for technology’s seem to suggest that we need to pay more attention than we may sake. I think the hon. member is absolutely correct in that. have to this point to the very question of the appropriate use of When it comes to the $250 million increase over this time last medical technologies both in diagnostic practices that prevail across year, that represents a roughly 8 to 10 per cent increase in the cost, the province and in some other ways. which is what we’re seeing in health care today, an 8 to 10 per cent So I think it’s a very good point. I think we need to pay more increase in both utilization and the cost of such items as drugs, attention. My sense is – and I heard the minister of infrastructure technology, procedures. That’s why the $250 million is there over also suggesting that – that there is money to be saved without last year. It’s the natural growth in the amount that we’re paying. causing any inconvenience or damage to the health of our patients There are a little bit of dollars built in there just on the outside that come to our medical institutions that provide service. I want to chance that something did not go through properly by the end of add my voice to that concern that’s expressed across the foyer here May, in case there is some needed and it isn’t getting there right on that issue, and I think we need to pay attention to it. away. This is not the type of system that we can simply stop for a I notice here, Madam Chair, that this year’s supplementary day and say: okay, we’re not going to have any health care in estimates for expense and equipment/inventory purchases are Alberta for one day. There is a little bit of leeway built into that, but $2,291,700,000. Last year the amount was $2,044,200,000. There’s in general what it is is the inflationary pressures, the access pres- a difference of about $250 million here; $250 million more is being sures, the amount of pressures from the increased utilization of the asked this year. I wonder if the minister will have something to say health care system that has occurred over the past year. on that to explain what this difference reflects, what the increase is Capital investment, that $5.4 million, simply means that in this about, where these particular $250 million may be expected to go or next two months there are fewer capital dollars that have been are projected to go. utilized, that have needed to be utilized. My assumption on this is On the other hand, I also notice that under capital investment that this has to do with a lot of the planning procedures that are there’s a slight decrease of $2 million in what’s being asked for this taking place. There are a lot of hospitals that are under construction, year – that is, the coming fiscal year, 2007 – compared to the fiscal that are starting, and this $5.4 million is, quite simply, the amount of year 2005-2006. So there are some variations here from last year. planning dollars that are going forward on that. The smaller I think that they simply tickle my curiosity, and I’m sure Albertans amounts, the equipment purchases, would be included in the $2.2 would like to perhaps know why are there variations between last billion. year and the coming year. I hope that has answered the hon. member’s questions and that I understand that these supplementary estimates are meant to tide that satisfies him. us over the next two months, the month of April and the month of May. We have been debating interim supply estimates for the Dr. Pannu: Madam Chair, may I follow up with a question? current year. 5:00 The Acting Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona.

Dr. Oberg: Those were supplementary estimates. Dr. Pannu: Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. I apologize for forgetting to ask a question. I thought I’d better ask it while we still Dr. Pannu: Yes, supplementary estimates. You’ll notice that there have it. has been quite a bit of discrepancy between the budgeted estimates You had mentioned drugs, and we know that drugs are the most and then the supplementaries that are asked for. I’m curious to know worrisome driver of costs within the health care system. You talked how close these interim estimates are to what we’ll actually need to about a 10 per cent increase anticipated. Drugs are a very, very spend over the next two months. Are they wildly off base or likely important part of the increase in costs, a really serious driver. Is to be off base, or have we learned something from previous years, there anything reflected here which would suggest that drug costs are doing the same work, and has the government developed a more being targeted as an item where we need to seek ways to reduce precise way of estimating what it’s asking for? those costs? Once I’ve heard answers to my questions and I’m satisfied that we I went to a pharmacist to get a prescription filled a couple of are targeting to become more precise in how we budget, what we ask weeks ago, and I was pleasantly surprised. This wasn’t covered by for as part of interim estimates – and supplementary estimates, I’d Blue Cross, you know, that we all have. I was told last year when I suggest – then I’ll be happy to make up my mind to vote for them or was getting this prescription filled that it was a standard drug, you not. know, under patent. Now, this time I went there, and automatically the pharmacist told me that I will get the generic form of it. I said: The Acting Chair: The hon. Minister of Infrastructure and Trans- I’m delighted; we’ve been trying to tell the government to do the portation. same. Is there anything built in here to suggest that the government, in Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. First of all, fact, is now asking hospitals, for example, or health authorities to I would just like to agree with the hon. member when it comes to look at the use of generic drugs where the health outcomes are technology. Technology is one of the highest cost items that we similar, if not identical, as compared with the more expensive March 8, 2006 Alberta Hansard 309 patented drugs? That certainly is, I think, an issue on which than some of the government departments’ total budgets, for Albertans would like to hear from us, hear from the government as instance. to what action they’re proposing to take. I wonder if some of those 5:10 considerations are built in in these interim estimates. If not, why not? There is a lot of money spent on providing public health care. I would certainly urge this government to stick to delivering health The Acting Chair: The hon. Minister of Infrastructure and Trans- care to the citizens of this province through the public model, the portation. single-payer user system. I can’t imagine how much of this budget is going to be spent on public relations. We know some of the Dr. Oberg: Thank you, Madam Chairman. First of all, in the elaborate public relations plans that this government has imple- interim supply estimates it’s almost impossible to build in a decrease mented at taxpayers’ expense, of course, in convincing citizens that in costs for drugs. In a two-month time frame you are not going to they need the choice of where to go to acquire needed health services. see that decrease in the medications. To decrease the amount of Now, it was put to me the other day that these choices will be expenditures on drugs is going to have to be a longer term process. dependent upon the size of your wallet. I would agree with that. What the hon. member was talking about, quite simply, is that There is no need to go this way. The hon. Member for Edmonton- when a patent protection comes off a drug, it subsequently goes to Riverview, the Leader of the Opposition, advised and tried to generic. We do have mandatory generic substitution in Alberta. The convince this government of the folly of more private health care drug that you’re talking about – and I don’t know which drug it is – delivery. The hon. member was right in advising this government typically has I believe a 20-year patent. Recognizing that it takes an of their folly with electricity deregulation and reminded the Premier average of 13 years for a drug to get into the actual pharmacies, about when Albertans were told that, oh, they need choice when they before it is brought to market, there’s an average of seven years. purchase electricity. Choice is what they wanted. Well, the choice What I think happened with the hon. member and why his drug was that Albertans have been left with as a result of that government changed is that a generic did come on the market because the patent policy is: “Which bill should I pay first? My high electricity bill or had expired, so that’s why. But there is generic substitution. The my high natural gas bill?” That was the choice they were left with. hospitals look very much at the generics, and they utilize generics The same will apply if this government goes through with imple- where they are applicable. menting their private health care scheme. The people will certainly I will take it one step further at my own risk and peril and say that have choice all right, but it will be: which medical bill do we pay I think it’s something that has to be looked at. There are a huge first? number of very similar drugs that are coming on the market, and Now, if we’re to proceed with this, we’re going to have some when they are put on the formulary, there’s not necessarily another doctors who in the forenoon will be working in their private clinic, drug taken off. It is an issue that we do have to look at. The price and in the afternoon they’ll be going to the public system. We heard of drugs is something that we have to be very cognizant of and earlier about the scarcity of qualified doctors, the difficulty in vigilant in. recruiting them. This idea that you can work in the forenoon in a The unfortunate part or fortunate, depending on where you’re at, private clinic and in the afternoon in the public hospital is not to the is that a lot of the new drugs that come on are very, very expensive, benefit of the public health care system nor the people who rely on but a lot of the new drugs that come on are very, very good as well, it. and they do have a very beneficial effect on the health outcomes of The people who also rely on our public health care system are Albertans, so we have to be careful. I think the bottom line in what members of the business community. I can’t understand why the I’m saying is that we have to be extremely cognizant, we have to be Calgary Chamber of Commerce is so anxious to see privatization of extremely vigilant, and we have to make sure that the drugs are our health care system. The single-payer user system is an economic performing to what they are said to perform and that they do have a advantage for all economic sectors, whether it’s manufacturing, place in our formulary. whether it’s the service industry, or whether it’s people who are That’s the long answer. The short answer is: no, there is no involved in heavy industrial . . . specific indication in these two months. I know that the hon. minister is doing her utmost to keep drug costs down, but that is not The Acting Chair: I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Member for something that can be done in a two-month time period. It has to be Edmonton-Gold Bar, but pursuant to Standing Order 58(1), which done in a full-year budget or even more than a one-year budget. provides for not less than two hours of consideration of estimates, I would invite the Deputy Government House Leader to move that the The Acting Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, committee rise and report progress. please. Mr. Stevens: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I move that the Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. When we look Committee of Supply rise and report the interim supply votes that at this interim supply budget for Health and Wellness, we see that were taken this afternoon and request leave to sit again. there is in excess of $2 billion requested. We see expense and equipment/inventory purchases, a much smaller amount for capital [Motion carried] investment. When the hon. minister indicates that this is necessary to keep our public health care system operating, everyone is [Mrs. Ady in the chair] certainly cognizant of that and supports that. But this is an opportu- nity to discuss not only this portion of the Health and Wellness Mr. Shariff: Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has had budget but what is yet to be allocated. We know the budget process under consideration certain resolutions and reports as follows. The that has been dealt with in the past. We know that sometimes the following resolutions relating to the 2006-2007 interim supply regional health authorities’ individual budgets, specifically Calgary estimates for the general revenue fund and lottery fund have been and Edmonton, those huge urban health authorities, are much larger approved. 310 Alberta Hansard March 8, 2006

Infrastructure and Transportation: expense and Hon. Members: Concur. equipment/inventory purchases, $832,400,000; capital investment, $207,800,000. The Acting Speaker: Opposed? Carried. Advanced Education: expense and equipment/inventory pur- The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. chases, $344,700,000; nonbudgetary disbursements, $17,400,000. Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply also reports progress Mr. Stevens: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to move on Health and Wellness and requests leave to sit again. that we call it 5:30 and adjourn until 8 this evening, at which time I Madam Speaker, I wish to table a list of those resolutions voted would ask that we reconvene in Committee of Supply. upon by the Committee of Supply pursuant to Standing Orders. [Motion carried; the Assembly adjourned at 5:17 p.m.] The Acting Speaker: Does the Assembly concur in the report?