Barber, Frank Interviewer

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Interviewee: Barber, Frank

Interviewer: Mohammed, Liz

Date: October 20, 1983

LM: This is an interview with Frank Barber. Okay, please give us a brief biographical sketch to include your date of birth, place of birth, and schools attended. FB: Well, I was born April 2, 1929, in Hot Springs, Garland Co., Arkansas. My mother was born in Hattiesburg, Mississippi in 1902 and we happened to be in Hot Springs because my mother had moved there five years before my birth for her health. My father had to sell his business and relocate in Hot Springs. But apparently, my mother recovered sufficiently to have me in 1929. I only lived in Hot Springs about three years and I grew up in Hattiesburg, Forrest Co. Mississippi. And, received my elementary education there, and was graduated from High School there, in Hattiesburg, in 1947. I attended the University of Mississippi, I went to the U.S. Army, I was graduated with a BA Degree from the University of Southern Mississippi, then Mississippi Southern College, Hattiesburg. I attended the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss School of Law one year, and was graduated after two years at the George Washington University School of Law in Washington D.C. I'm a lawyer, I am_____to the D.C. or District of Columbia Bar in '57, the Mississippi Bar in '58, I was in the private practice of law from '58 to '64. I received most of my legal education in Washington because in 1955 I went to work for Senator Eastland as a member of the staff of his Judiciary Committee. After returning to Mississippi, I served one year as Special Council to the General Legislative Investigating Committee. In 1959 I was elected to the Mississippi State Senate, I served one term, I did not offer for re-election. I served as chairman of the Corporation's Committee, chairman of the Constitution Committee, my second two years, the secretary of the General Legislative Investigating Committee, as a member of the Judiciary Finance Committee. Following my service in the Senate I participated in the campaign of, the successful campaign of Governor Paul Johnson, and served as one of his three executive assistants. Following that service I was going to turn in, Industrial Representative for the Mississippi Agricultural Industrial Board. Where I was exposed to some of the problems of economic development in the state, including bond issues, industrial and general revenue bond issues. It was a very interesting experience during the Governor John Bell Williams administration. In 1972, I went back to Washington and served seven years as a legislative assistant to United States Senator James O. Eastland who was chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee and President Pro-Tempore of the United States Senate. I'm married I have five, I have a total of six children and I am very proud of my service in the U.S. Army. On two occasions, the latter part of the, the latter service being overseas service during the Korean War in Europe. I am a member of a number of organizations including: the American Legion, the Veteran for Foreign Wars, Mississippi State Bar Association, the American Bar Association, the Federal Bar Association, the Mississippi

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Trial Lawyers Association, the American Association of Trial Lawyers, the Alumni Associations of Ole Miss and the University of Southern Mississippi, I'm a Master Mason member of the York-Right and the Scottish-Right bodies.

LM: Okay, how, when, and why did you get involved in Mississippi politics? FB: Well that's not an easy question and unfortunately for you Liz, it won't be a brief answer. But, my first recollection of exposure to politics was probably before I was ten years old. My father had come to Mississippi from the north, my father had come from, first Pennsylvania then he came to Mississippi to Camp Shelby with the Indiana National Guard, 38th Infantry Division. His political orientation, then and most of the time until his death was Republican, I sometimes say I took my mothers politics and my fathers religion. But, nevertheless I can, I can vaguely recall the 1936 election for President, Franklin Roosevelt and Alf Landen, and my father was one of the few people in Hattiesburg, MS who favored Landen. Everybody else favored Roosevelt that I knew of... and of course over the tremendous landslide for Franklin Roosevelt that year. I had no sentimental attachment at age 7 to either candidate. The next thing I recall, I do recall this, between '36 and'39 that I began to go to the Hattiesburg Public Library very assiduously, very faithfully and I began to read books and I graduated from Dick and Jane, or the very elementary, elementary school books, to simple biographies, and I remember reading the biography of Washington, and Lincoln, Lincoln particularly impressed me and somewhere along the line I determined that I would like a career in either law or politics or both. The more biographies I read the more, at that time, the more politicians I learned about, they were both lawyers and public officials, or lawyers and government officials. Jefferson was a lawyer, and so on through history, Theodore Roosevelt was a lawyer, Franklin Roosevelt was a lawyer, now lawyers aren't so much involved in politics now. I might point out that when I was a member of the Legislature almost half of the membership were lawyers, that's not true anymore. Less than a third are members are members of legal profession now. But anyhow it set in my mind that to be a successful politician, and I've never backed up from the use of that word, I think that, I think politics is a noble profession, that the best preparation was probably a career or a degree in law. Now, a funny thing happened around 1938, '37 or '38, '38, my parents were divorced, and in the course of the divorce I met the attorney for my mother and the attorney was Paul B. Johnson Sr., who had been a Judge, a Circuit Judge, and a Congressman from our district, and had run for Governor twice before nineteen thirty, before his third and successful race in 1939. And I remember being in the court room and seeing that tall and handsome and very distinguished future Governor, Paul B. Johnson, and I said I want to be like him. And in '39 I had a chance to help him, I was ten years old and his law office was in Hattiesburg, and on my way from the library one day I went by Governor John..., Judge Johnson's office. And I asked, he wasn't there, he was out campaigning, but I asked if there was anything I can do and this lady, I will never for get her name, her name was Miss Mead, gave me a bunch of circulars. So the first, no compensation, but a bunch of circulars, and let me

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give them out, put them on cars, in the downtown Hattiesburg area. And that's the first, my first exposure to political work. And then I went to, then he was elected and I was, I was there the next day in his office when he was elected and I will never forget the Governor took me in his chair and put me on his lap and thanked me for what I had done. And when he was Governor I used to, I couldn't go to the Inaugural or anything I was just ten, but I kept up with him through the newspapers and I would write him a letter every once in a while and, or a post card, and he would write me a letter. And this connection with the Johnson family probably explains my entire involvement in Mississippi politics. It was Governor Johnson who appointed James O. Eastland to the United States Senate in 1942 on the death of Senator Harrison, Senator Pan Harrison. A year later, he did not run in the special election, but in a year later Senator Eastland ran against Senator Ball Doxie, and had only served a year, and defeated him. And I recall having written, I have the letter, which incidentally is in the Archives of the University of Southern Mississippi Library, where I expressed to Governor Johnson my support and interest in Senator Eastland, although I had never seen the man. And although I was something like thirteen years old, but these things all came to merge later in my, my career. Cut it (tape off). Part of that question why was I involved, well when you are very young and you are very idealistic and you don't know exactly the why's and wherefore's of what you do, but having read all these biographies, having seen these people at a distance and wanting to immolate them, essentially you feel that you want to do something for the people. You might not know what you want to do for the people, or what the best interests of the people are, but you have this general idealistic bent. (Tape off). (Whispering not audible)

LM: You were exposed to politics at a very early age, did you continue this interest, and what lead you to become a legislature? FB: All right, there's a, yes I continued my interest, I can remember I told you that Governor Johnson was elected in '39. In 1940 Senator Bilbo came op for re-election, and his opponent was former Governor Hugh White, and Bilbo had backed Johnson for Governor, and Johnson, Governor Johnson Sr. backed Bilbo for his, in his reelection campaign. I first saw Bilbo on the courthouse lawn at Hattiesburg, I was eleven years old, Bilbo spoke for two hours. I remember when he finished he was completely emersed in perspiration his age put a raincoat over him, something like a London fog it was. The amazing thing was I stood there entranced, he was a spellbinder. He was a tremendous orator, tremendous speaker. And was very flattered that Governor Johnson recognized me in the crowd, and winked at me several times during the speech. But, I learned later, he didn't really love Bilbo that much, but he felt a political obligation to him. I might point out that I don't recall a single racial reference in the 1940 speech. But, so, but I was for Bilbo because I was against Hugh White, because Hugh White had beat Governor Johnson in 1935. In 1941, '40 or'41, we also had a Mayors race in Hattiesburg and I gave out cards for a candidate for Mayor named D.W. Holmes. That was the first dollar I earned in politics, and that was exactly the sum I earned, it was

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one dollar, for giving out cards for D.W. Holmes. He was defeated, but later he was elected Mayor of Hattiesburg. Then in'43, I gave out cards for various candidates I was sort of a campaign worker for hire. I would give out cards for candidates for sheriff, State Senator, anybody that would engage my services. Also at very minimal, very minimal wages. Then in, then I graduated from, well before I graduated from high school in first semester in 1946, I entered the vocational education program of Hattiesburg High School, which was pretty good. I mean they had, you went to school half a day, and you worked a half a day, but I went to school 'til two o'clock in the afternoon and then worked, because I had a speech class that I took there. The vocational teacher asked me what kind of work I liked to do and I said I'd like to work in a law office, in a law office and so, and so what lawyer would you like to work for, and I said Paul Johnson Jr. I had just read that he had returned from the marine corp. and opened a law office where Governor Johnson Sr.'s office was. I had never met Paul Johnson Jr. he was thirty years old at the time. But it was an amazing coincidence, I went to work in his office at no wages what so ever and I had learned the previous summer the rudiments of abstracting or tracing land titles and I spent the, that first semester in the afternoons in the Forrest Co. Court House abstracting the Johnson Estate. Which was considerable, the land interest were considerable. And through that unremunerated, employment I became very, I became close to Paul Johnson Jr. who in 1947, at age 31, became a candidate for the Governor of Mississippi. And probably the most poorly financed campaign, I think the Governor later told me that they spent a total of fifteen thousand dollars in the race, and so I was, I didn't get any pay particularly. My job was to ride the sound truck and to announce in the various towns when the candidate Paul Johnson Jr. was to speak. And they were so short of funds there were a lot of weeks that I couldn't go cause they couldn't feed and house me. And I was eighteen and I was very slim and I didn't think I ate that much, but apparently, they felt that it was expensive to feed and house me. And I don't know if you're, well I know you're not Liz but hotels, and motels, well the hotels there were very few motels, ______but they were for a lot and I'm sure the average nightly rate was about a dollar and a half or a dollar, something like that. Well don't laugh Liz because when I came to the Legislature, we had a special Legislative rate at the King Edward Hotel that was four dollars plus tax that was 1960. Average rate in this town, major hotel now is, motel is somewhere around forty dollars, but that is beside the point. To get to the, further on, we lost but Governor Johnson did run second, there was no second primary, however, because Governor Fielding Wright the sitting Governor. Who had succeeded his Governorship on the death of Thomas L. Bailey was the Governor and the principal opponent and he was re-elected without any problem. Well in '51 when the Governor's race, I was, I went back to, I mean I had entered college at Ole Miss, and then went to the Army. And in '51, I was in the Army again by reason of the outbreak of the Korean War. And I missed most of the '51 campaign, Governor Johnson made against Hugh White but sparking, I mean emphasizing my interest in politics was the second pri..., I was in the United States when the first primary was held, I was in Mississippi. When Paul Johnson lead the ticket, went into the second primary with Hugh White and we left the United States, went to Europe and was confident he was going to win the election. The day after the election we went all over Germany trying to find some election returns, and finally, I will never forget this a man named, a officer named Ray Lee, who's, who is now with the State Tax Commission,

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now called Beverage Control Division in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, got a jeep and we drove to Frankfort, Germany and we found a news organization, that no longer exists, called the North American Newspaper Alliance and they had the election returns. Johnson had lost again. Okay, in 1955, I was, found me as a student at the, well it was my determination, that Paul Johnson Jr. was going to be, become Governor of Mississippi. In 1955 I was in, had finished Southern, I was in my first year at, finished my first year of Law School at Ole Miss, we organized a student, Students for Johnson campaign. If you ever, Liz, eat at the Round Table, there's a picture of that group, in Ms. Stillisa's Restaurant, in Fred Morgan's Mendenhall Hotel, Round Table. And the staff of that campaign largely was composed of Ole Miss law students Brad Dye was the driver for the candidate, I was the advance man, and various other students had, Dean McRoberts, who is a prominent attorney here in Jackson now was the office manager, the campaign manager was a lawyer named _____ Callon, who's of Natchez, his family has founded the Callon Oil Company, which is one of the biggest oil companies in the state. It was an instant race and the candidates were Fielding Wright again, J.P. Coleman, the Attorney General, Ross Barnett. Ross Barnett ran forth in '55 as he had in '51, Fielding Wright ran third former Governor, J.P. Coleman ran second, and Paul Johnson lead the ticket in the First Primary. Course, does Coleman prevail in the Second Primary and for the third time, Paul B. Johnson Jr. had been defeated for Governor of Mississippi. Incidentally, in the fall of 1947, Paul Johnson Jr. was also candidate for the United State Senate, Senate. When Judge Stennis was elected. Paul Johnson ran third in that race.

LM: That was in 1947?

FB: November 1947. So, in 1955, that leaves Paul Johnson Jr. with four consecutive statewide defeats. It looked like he was through in politics. Well, in 1959, he did not offer for the Governorship, but he did offer as a candidate for Lieutenant Governor, and he was handedly elected in the First Primary. Now this was probably the most significant thing that ever happened to Paul Johnson Jr. in his career because one of the main obstacles to his ever becoming elected to Governor of Mississippi, was the fact that he had not had one days experience in state Government. And also that there were serious questions as to whether he was a trustworthy person. They had been such a back biting campaign, particularly in '51, that it left some scars, probably undeserved scars on him. And there were certain elements in the state, principally the business community that felt they can not trust Paul Johnson as Governor. But when he was elected Lieutenant Governor, in the four years that he served there and showed these people that he was indeed trustworthy, that he was indeed qualified, that he was indeed experienced in the ways of the government. The previous legislatures had not, the previous members of the legislature, legislators, did not feel close to him, but they worked with him four years as Lieutenant Governor. He brought a lot of new people to his side and coupling those with the obvious strong following he had in the state in 1963 he was elected. What about_____, well I did not participate in the Lieutenant Governors campaign, I was running myself, I ran in '59 and I was elected.

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LM: For State Senator.

FB: State Senator______. But it was fortuitous again this coincidence of life that when I got to the State Senate, the providing officer of the State Senate, was my friend, former employer, Paul B. Johnson Jr. And I was a committee chairman the day I took the oath. So be it a small committee, but later I headed a very strong committee, the Constitution Committee, because the Supreme Court had made its first decision on legislative redistricting. And we set up the first legislative redistricting since the Constitution of 1890. So it became a very significant committee. So just, I was very close to Governor Johnson, I was one of his floor leaders, I was the chair head of most______, I generally presented it. It was a, I was not the only one, only Senator close to the Lieutenant Governor, but was, I did the Yomen service, the whatever the chair to the Secretary of the Senate required. I provided in way of parliamentary (mumbles - not audible). Where were we?

LM: Well you were telling me about Paul Johnson and I know you were close to him, and who else in your opinion were some of the more influential Governors during, well your career in politics? FB: During my lifetime, of course if you go back through out my long life, I was alive but certainly not knowledgeable during the Bilbo administration and the only thing I know about Bilbo's successor, Martin Senate Connor, Mike Connor was that he brought some order out of chaos. So far as the, it was during that administration in that the sales tax was passed and which and which has provided Mississippi a balanced budget ever since. This years kind of close but, but its still technically balanced.

LM: He brought order out of chaos was the chaos caused from Bilbo? FB: Yes, I think so, well not only Bilbo, but it was the National economy the depression, the you know the stock market, what happened to the stock market in October 1929, and when the crash came, it effected Mississippi. And I think that, I don't think Bilbo can get all of the blame but, Bilbo had a, also had a legislature that wouldn't do anything as far as taxes were concerned. And I can't name all of the big four against, but I do know who the little three were, the little three was Bilbo's floor leaders, the little three was Jim Eastland, of Scott Co., Kelly Hammond, of Marion Co., and Courtney Pace, of Bolivar Co. All to come to some fame in the future, the big four who opposed Bilbo, Eastland, Hammond, and Pace were the Bilbo floor leaders, and they were opposed by the big four, Walter Sillers, Tom Bailey, later to be Governor, Lawrence Kennedy, of Copiah Co., and a fourth whose name always escapes me but you've got to understand these gentlemen were in office '28 - '32. I was three years old and went out.

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LM: Uh, huh.

FB: But the point was Bilbo advocated the sales tax before Connor did. We couldn't get it through the legislature... I mean every remedy Bilbo offered, to solve the state financial problems were successfully bought by the big four and their following in the Mississippi House of Representatives. LM: Sillers, they said that he ran the state.

FB: Well he was not speaker at that time, he didn't become speaker until '44, but he came to the legislature in'16. So he had already been there, "Red" Sillers, he was redheaded before he was a white headed man, was tremendously, not only tremendously powerful but extremely intelligent. I mean he had a complete mastery of the rules, he, and he was dedicated and he worked hard. I was a great admirer, when I later knew him, I hadn't gotten to that yet, but I was a great admirer of Sillers. But he worked at this day and night and I think he, he had a, he had a good idea, he had an idea of what he thought was good for the state. And he felt that state government had about three functions only that first it was education, secondly health, public health, and third a balanced fiscal financial budget. And he had a little concern for welfare programs things of that nature, I say poor Sillers is probably jumping over in his grave if he knew what was happening now. But, he felt that the legislature should meet, balance the budget, provide for educational funds and health funds, and go home. He was for the preservation of the... Pardon me is this cigarette bothering you?

LM: No.

FB: Okay. ...of the present order. He was a conservative, he was a, but he was always a gentleman. Although they tell me back in his younger days he was a fierce fighter and a seething debater. But I always knew him as a very courteous gentleman in the highest sense of the delta planet class (??). LM: You knew him mostly when he was speaker? FB: Yeah, I knew him entirely when he was speaker. LM: Not yeah right, knew of him when he was in the legislature. FB: I knew him, through his career mostly. LM: Right. FB: I had history and oral history, people that talk around (mumbling - not audible) LM: Right. FB: One of his, well maybe I ought to, you got a question on the Sillers later on don't you?

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LM: Right, well just whenever. FB: The thing I think he, what kept him in power was his, his, he always renewed his strength when the young numbers came he cultivated them, he talked to them, he flattered them, I mean he got to know them, he knew more about them then they knew about themselves. He studied them, Sillers has no children and I think sometimes he considered members of the legislature that he cultivated and nurtured and educated as his sons. And to a certain extent that's true.

LM: Right. FB: I'd say Newman (?) is a product of Sillers. LM: Definitely. FB: Newman is a very good friend of mine. LM: Newman, they say is coming the closest to being another Walter Sillers.

FB: Newman's got his picture up there. LM: It seems that it wasn't necessary for the Governor...

FB: I have got to read the contracts here again (?). LM: Say what ever you want to say. It's in the archives. FB: Well, I think the strategy and tactics that Speaker Newman uses are very similar to those of Speaker Sillers. They are quite different personalities and people. Of course, I mean no two people are exactly alike. But Speaker Newman is courteous, gracious, an all over gentleman, and in that respect they are very similar. LM: There was really no need for a Governor in Sillers time, do you think its getting that way for Newman's time? FB: Well, let me talk about that cut it off for just a second. LM: Which other Governors in your lifetime have you considered to be some of the most influential?

FB: I think after Governor, Senate Mike Conner, who restored fiscal stability to the state, I mentioned, the next Governor, Governor Hugh White, I was in the opposite camp, but his first term was very productive. Of course, he was getting a lot of help from New Deal Washington. It was Hugh White, White's administration that built the major highways in the state. We had practically none until he was Governor. There are a great number of progressor's accomplishments

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and Hugh White was a good man. I later got to know him in the Johnson administration. We had him; he was the founder of the Balance Agriculture with Industry program. When we reached a peak in, I guess 1965,'64 or'65, is when we had more people in manufacturing jobs, and agricultural pursuits in the state, Governor Johnson brought up his old opponent Hugh White to the Governor's office, and they had quite a picture taking celebration and tribute to Governor White for his foresighted role in industrial and economic wealth. Then I think Governor Johnson Sr. was a great Governor he was, now he was handicapped, by reason of the fact that WWII broke out. One year after he was inaugurated and there was not much building going on, no civilian building, but there was some good legislation passed. And one of them is the severance tax on timber, where by the timber owners pay taxes, when their timber is cut and goes to market, rather that paying______taxes on it while its growing. And it made possible the creation of our forestry commission, which I believe has a very good job. Then, you've got the, well the board of trustees, Institutions of Higher Learning was enacted in the, constitutional amendment was passed during the Johnson administration with his support and of course that's the constitutional board that governs our eight (quote) universities (end quote). The next Governor was Fielding Wright and he had the great task of the transition. from wartime, it was Thomas Bailey who died in office, and both of them had the task of transition from WWII to civilian economy. I was, I am just casually acquainted with Governor Wright not with, I was not acquainted with Governor Bailey at all. Then Governor Hugh White came back again, and I think, conducted himself admirably. Here's what I liked about Governor Hugh White in his second term, he was a Democrat, and I am a Democrat, I am a strong fervent, national Democrat, and he insured that this state voted for Alice Stevenson for President in 1952. And he had been acquainted with Governor Stevenson from Illinois, and the Governors conference and he kept Mississippi in line, and Mississippi was one of seven states to vote Democratic in '52, against Dwight D. Eisenhower. We had, Governor White and I had that in common, and incidentally I attended the 1952 convention which nominated Stevenson in Chicago, I had just come back from service, went up on my own, with out any auspices, and got to see most of the sessions. But Governor, lets see, Governor J.P. Coleman comes next. If I had any comment I think there were some credible things done, there was some building projects which were completed, or initiated, probably the, a better name for the Ross Barnett Reservoir would probably be the J.P. Coleman Reservoir or better, the man in Jackson who conceived the idea W.P. Bridges, Parham Bridges Reservoir. But it was named next administration for Ross Barnett because he appointed the members of the Reservoir Board of Supply district who named it, or the building commission, one or the other. But the coliseum here in Jackson, was a product of the Coleman administration. But generally if I had a criticism of the Coleman administration it would be the fact that he was, well the only word for it is niggardly, n i g g a r d 1 y, and it has nothing to do with race. By niggardly I mean he was very close with the states dollar, he did not raise taxes and the salaries of the state employees were adsimally bad, the,

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there was not a great, really I mean there was some development in industrial growth, but not much. And he proposed a constitutional convention, which failed, and J.P. Coleman is a great historian... LM: This is continuing the interview with James, Frank Barber, talking about J.P. Coleman.

FB: J.P. Coleman as I said was a, is a great historian, he's a great lawyer, and undoubtedly a great jurist. I think probably though if history would really examine his administration, I think that you would find that he was a less able administrator or executive. Ross Barnett is a Governor I served under, whom I knew whom I know real well; I like him I don't think there is anybody that doesn't like Ross Barnett. I generally attribute these attributes to the Barnett administration. In the strict internal activities of the state of Mississippi, I think he's got an excellent record. I think the legislature of the 19.., legislatures of 1960 and 1962 ushered in a new era of economic development, I think the economic progress of Mississippi really dates from the early 1960s in the Barnett administration. It was during this period that we really began to get some major industries in this state, and I just sight to you the Standard Oil refinery in Pascagula which was the first big break through we had. Ross ran on the platform of getting a major refinery to the state and he did it, they could have gone to Florida or Alabama. But they came to Mississippi. The executives came down here and said, now Governor we've got one problem to come to Mississippi, we've got a constitutional, you've got a constitutional division with_____sixteenth section land, which our lawyers tell us is going to prevent us from building our plant on the bayou side area, and we'd have to have an amendment to that and Ross said well we'll get an amendment. He called the legislative leadership, they called a special session of legislature, the committees met in two or three days, and with in the constitutional period, when the people could vote on it, I think it was something like six weeks from the conversation to the constitutional amendment, it was passed. I mean he had an aggressive and positive approach to industrial development and it still renown's to the great benefit of this state. Well that, that's Standard Oil refinery has just had a one hundred and three million-dollar expansion, five thousand people have met work on its construction. So I think Ross Barnett was a good Governor internally, I think when he left the borders of the state of Mississippi and relations with the federal government, his, certainly his image bogged down, but certainly his, I think this was a field in which he was completely inexperienced and I think probably listened to the wrong advice. But in Ross's defense, the Meredith, I am speaking primarily the Meredith incident in 1962, let me tell you something, there were a lot of mistakes made, not only by the state of Mississippi, there were a lot of mistakes made by the federal government. The principle mistake made by the federal government in my judgement was on the Sunday before the man was to be admitted on Monday was surrounding the lyceum building with armed, masked, gas masked guards. There was no need for that; there is no need for a show of force until Monday morning. LM: Right.

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FB: And the students hopefully would have been in class on Monday morning and the outsiders, and there were many, many outsiders non-students who contributed to the, to the violence that was there. I mean that occurred, would have had no focal point to gather, they could have been successfully turned away by the, by the highway patrol. But there was a, there was a breakdown in communications on both sides and both sides, I think were at fault, and unfortunately two people lost their lives. But fortunately, I mean there could have been a great number of people, no students lost their lives, there could have been a tremendous loss of life there. But for some cooler heads that prevailed, one of which was the Lieutenant Governor Paul B. Johnson we finally got there. When Governor Barnett finally sent him there. But if you want to read an authentic account of what happened there refer to our general legislative investigative committee, investigation of the, of the incident. General legislative investigative committee, investigation of federal tyranny at Ole Miss, I think that's the title. If I could find that thing, I'd give you one, if I had more than one. Apparently I don't, they are hard to find, there should be one at the Delta State Library. LM: It could be, there probably is.

FB: Okay. I think in the internal administration, of his office, I think probably Ross could also, Ross Barnett could also be said, be somewhat weak in that, in his immediate office he had very little staff assistance, and staff help. Of course, any Governor can draw assistance from the entire executive branch. But as I recall, he ended up, his administration with one man and I think three women in his office. Now Governor Johnson Sr. was not much better off because the legislature only authorized funds, I think he had, I know he had three men and four women. We, we were, we did not hesitate to draw upon the resources of the state government if it were, if it were necessary. And Paul Johnson proved himself to be an extremely able administrator. And he built upon the Economic Development Foundation that Ross through legislation had set up. And the crowning achievement of his administration as far as economic development was the Litten (tape off - he received a call). At the conclusion of Governor Johnson's administration I wrote a summary and a copy of which should be in the Delta State Library, but... cut it (tape off). Find Liz a copy of that summary, a loan of that summary, very rare. Which would constitute my extended answer on the Johnson administration, I think Paul Johnson was an excellent Governor under very difficult circumstances. Particularly the Civil Rights difficulties of '64. He preserved law and order, he was instrumental in getting J. Edgar Hoover down here to set up the FBI office, first FBI office Mississippi ever had. And prior to that there was a Presidential election year and President Johnson sent former CIA director Alan Dellis down here to investigate whether or not we were able to preserve law and order in this state. And we met with Alan Dellis and then Johnson showed him what plans he did have in place and he had been a Marine officer in WWII and he was, he did command the Mississippi Highway Patrol and forged it into a not a military unit but a strong law enforcement unit during that period with the help of the legislature who provided the funds. And the only request that he made for assistance from the federal government was that we do have an

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FBI office and the President did provide that. J. Edgar Hoover himself came down to open it and after that, the troubles were minimal. Even during this period, we carried on an extensive economic development program. Johnson and getting the, going back to Litton there were special sessions of the legislature necessary there. Called the session in one week, enacted the necessary legislation, and we had a multi-million dollar shipyard, the most modern in the world, built in Pascagula. Which employs now between 12 and 20 thousand people, depending on demands of Navy for ships. But the R and D Center, Research and Development Center was a product of the Johnson administration. Governor John Bell Williams followed Johnson and was a, was generally a progressive Governor, a much more progressive Governor than most people thought he would be. There were no great innovations, however, and it was a, I would say he, again he built upon the Barnett and Johnson administrations and sort of carried out their policies. He was a very honest man and not extremely aggressive Governor, but had good relations with the legislature, and generally, he was governor in prosperous times. And no financial problems particularly. Okay, Governor William Waller, I was absent fortunately during most of the Waller administration. You can cut it off. (Tape off). I was in Washington most of the time William Waller was Governor. I got the definite impression that Governor Waller never ceased being candidate Waller. As a lawyer, I have a great deal of respect for Bill Waller as a Governor I have less regard for him. His principal accomplishment, probably historical ______, probably the restoration of Natchez Trace, his wife did a superb job, supervising that operation. But there may be other virtues to his administration but having been gone, I don't know of them. Governor Cliff Finch was something else, he (interruption) but he, incidentally Mrs. Shock will be late, my client, I mean, no she's always late hours late, she was late for lunch but where were we? LM: Finch.

FB: Again, we have another candidate who can not stop running. I think Cliff had the best intentions in the world, as I'm sure did Governor Waller. But his administration would have to be generally described as a major disaster. He was, his tenure however was_____, his administration was aided by a tremendous infusion of federal funds into the state. A great portion of which have been eliminated by the Reagan administration. In his favor, I will say that he was not hesitant to ask, to seek federal funds. I remember____staff, I helped him seek and find those federal funds. If I had to point out a shining example of good administration in Finch's administration, it would simply be his willingness to experiment and to solve a very serious problem involving the so-called Bankers Trust Reorganization. If Bankers Trust had failed it would have had a domino effect upon not only of the savings and loan institutes of the state, but all financial institutions in Mississippi. I worked with him, as did other members of Senator Eastlands staff in getting the assistance of the principal federal agencies involved. The treasury department, the federal reserve board, the federal savings and loan, insurance corporation, federal deposit insurance corporation, a team from each of these agencies were formed and flown down to Mississippi over a weekend. The following week a special session was called new S and L Legislation passed and the problem, the conference (?) was

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stored in state savings and loan associations. (Mumbling - not audible) Governor Winter has had a generally progressive administration certainly an honest one. It was however on in the last years of his administration that he began to have enacted the educational reform package he had advocated through out. Because of his scholarly approach to the office, his contrast with he two previous governors, he probably stands out as a certainly high type of governor of Mississippi. And history will probably be kind to him and not necessarily because of his dual position as the president of the Mississippi Department of Archives, and of the Board of Archives and History. What else? Ask some...

LM: Okay, these are just some general questions.

FB: Okay.

LM: Up to date questions. FB: Try to ask them fast.

LM: Okay. Since you've had so many dealings with the government, what is your forecast for the 1984 legislature session with the deficit and the new faces?

FB: Well in the first place there are not going to be that many new faces, there are going to be a great number of new faces, and there always is. We are going to be missing some of the stellar members, of course Sandra______, been a fixture here for thirty years and through out the House and the Senate there will be very able, capable people. Most of them didn't run, that was how we lost them. But the, I think that the legislature will survive, there will be new leaders to come up and its amazing sometimes you have a man that's been around here eight, twelve years and he hadn't had any particular responsibility before, and hadn't really demonstrated any great ability, but given a task, given a job, he excels. So, its hard, its hard to predict what will happen, with the new legislature, I think you can safely say that Speaker Newman is going to be re-elected. I think its safe, well I don't know, I think it's fairly safe to say that the Lieutenant Governor will again be Brad Dye. That's something that happens in the next two weeks, we don't know about, the polls certainly show that he will be re-elected. I don't think you are going to have to different a situation. I think what's important is, who's going to be Governor? Now it's a funny thing, and a historian should know, notice this that up until 1944, the Governors in Mississippi have a great deal to say about who is going to be the Speaker. For example, when Paul Johnson Sr. was Governor, he more or less named his forces in the house, elected Sam Watkins, from Tupelo Speaker. When Mr. Sillers was elected, you've got to remember that Tom Bailey and his former colleague in the big four was Governor. Probably had a great deal with Red Sullivan being elected Speaker. Then his big buddy Fielding Wright, whom he served in the legislature with, was Governor, was Governor,

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and undoubtedly acquiesced in Sillers' election in '48. In '52, Hugh White had served in the House of Representatives after he was Governor the first time and knew Sillers, and had no philosophical difference with him. Now when Coleman became Governor and he beat Fielding Wright, you see and Paul Johnson, and there was a, there was a great deal of sentiment for Coleman to oppose Sillers. And to replace Sillers with who, with whom, Representative William Winter, of Grenada Co. And Sill... and Winters went out on a limb and solicited votes, but in the mean time Coleman and Sillers made a deal and there was really no contest. No I mean Winter was thrown to the wolves. After that Sillers had no trouble under Paul Johnson Jr., under, Sillers had backed Johnson against Coleman. And no problem with Ross before Johnson, and had no, well then died during the Johnson administration. It is significant that Governors Waller and Finch, and Winter, have not fooled with the legislative prerogatives of electing the Speaker. Now what, what will be a case in the next administration? I don't know.

LM: The same thing probably. FB: Probably the same thing. Because I would say the same thing, because, lets say the favorite at the moment, Alain, is elected he's got a lot of fence mending to do as a legislature, because of (Mumbling - not audible) commissioned litigation and therefore, he'll probably adjust to the unity. No Governor can survive without the, without at least a bare majority of the legislature.

LM: What about if we get a ... FB: Bramlette, Bramlette would I think not fool us. And I think whoever's Governor, the first year they are going to give them pretty much 100 of it. So they better have their ducks in a row. And the way they run now all this time see, they spend the whole year running, they've got very little time to think about what they are going to do as Governor. It used to not be that way. You get it all over with, the Democratic, Second Democratic primary; you have from August 'til January to formulate your program. Now, did that answer the question?

LM: Uh, huh.

FB: Okay what else? LM: Well, I've got a basic question, over all question on, about lobbying groups, which ones do you feel are the strongest and most effective? FB: I really believe the most effective lobbying group, its, is probably the Mississippi Medical Association. Although they don't take stands that are generally familiar to the public, I mean the issues that they, but they're very effective for two reasons: one, they have a big pack, they give contributions, so that's half the battle, and two, this would be true of any, any group dong the same

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thing but I know they do this, and they have very capable people lobbying for them. I don't have one really full time, but he's there year round, I mean he's, and they're in form, and every legislator has got a doctor. Or his family's got a doctor, and they just got a good healthy finger on the pulse of the legislative community. This is an article about it, they've got me listed down here as the third top twenty lobbyists in total expenditures, and I don't believe that.

LM: Must be true, couldn't print it if it isn't true.

FB: No, I'm seventh, I'm sorry.

LM: Oh, okay. FB: But that's, that includes our retainer fee. Let's see, I make, yeah mine is only, my fee is six thousand dollars a year, five hundred dollars a month, that's my retainers fee. This says, eighteen thousand eighty but there is a regional person, who diverts, I mean______the amount of money you make involving the Mississippi office, that must be twelve thousand, eighty dollars. We spent five thousand, nine hundred, and forty-eight dollars on entertainment, and that's strict. And that makes us number four. I just don't believe I spent more than the Mississippi Power and Light Co., or South Central Bell, particularly South Central Bell. LM: What is your vote? FB: Minnesota Mining and manufacturing company, we don't, we didn't even have a bill, in 182. Did that answer your question on lobbying? LM: Think that's about it. Do you have any general comments to summarize it, to put in the archives? Be there forever.

FB: Well, I don't believe that the academic community or the public in general, either understand or appreciate the political process particularly at the state government level. I have the press, as primary, the hard work, the work today, routine of the legislature has never been subject to much press observation of comment. The few and very few are compared to the few scandals that have occurred have received reams and reams of paper and gallons and gallons of ink. I think the membership of the legislature are hard working and for the most part dedicated individuals who serve for very little compensation. I served four years practically of full time member of the legislature because of my committee assignments particularly this General Legislative Investigative Committee. And I was an attorney for the, before I was a member of the legislature, I was an attorney for them, and I got four hundred dollars a month. Now this is back in the sixties when I was a member of that committee, I got twenty dollars a day period. For, that was my fee and my and my perdium. I mean that's how that I ate and stayed in a hotel and hell we traveled

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all over the state, we stayed in Oxford for a week. And the reason, one of the principal reasons, there were several reasons why I didn't run for the legislature but the principal reason is I couldn't afford it. And, but I'd love to serve now its been a, great pleasure. So there are just a lot of things involved with that people don't understand. But I think we've got us, probably a superior group to most state legislatures, in this state. And I've met legislators from all over the country, when I was a legislature, I don't know what the caliber is now, because I don't have that access or opportunity. That'd be my final statement. LM: Thanks a lot. This has been an interview with lawyer Frank Barber a former state senator. This tape will be submitted in the Delta State Archives. Student submitting this is Liz Mohammed a senior at Delta State majoring in teacher education. The professor of this course is Dr. Cranford. I am turning this paper in November 29, 1983 and I am submitting with this paper a brief summary of the tape, a copy of the paper of lobbying groups in which Barber was a part of this, and Barber ____ certificate tapes, and also a brief biographical data on Frank Barber.

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