Thursday Volume 684 19 November 2020 No. 138

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 19 November 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 441 19 NOVEMBER 2020 442

Greg Hands: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. House of Commons Placing the Trade and Agriculture Commission on a statutory footing will ensure that public and industry Thursday 19 November 2020 interests are advanced and protected in Britain’sagriculture and trade policy. As the National Farmers’ Union said: “This significant commitment to primary legislation on food The House met at half-past Nine o’clock standards, both in the Agriculture Bill and the Trade Bill, is exactly what we have been calling for.” PRAYERS Anthony Browne: The farmers of South Cambridgeshire are some of the most efficient and environmentally [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] friendly in the country, but they have concerns that they The House entered into hybrid scrutiny proceedings might be undermined in any trade deal by imports that (Order, 4 June). are produced to lower animal welfare or environmental [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] standards. They strongly welcome the Government’s decision to put the Trade and Agriculture Commission on a statutory footing—a move also welcomed by farming and environmental groups across the country. Will my Oral Answers to Questions right hon. Friend tell the House what role the commission will play during trade negotiations, to ensure that standards are maintained? INTERNATIONAL TRADE Greg Hands: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. He is a reliable supporter of farmers in his constituency. The Secretary of State was asked— The Agri-food trade and agriculture group will feed in during the negotiations. He also asked about the TAC, Trade Agreements: Food and Farming Standards and I wish to use this occasion to praise its chairman, Tim Smith, for the excellent work that he has done so James Grundy (Leigh) (Con): What steps the Government far, and in very good time. are taking to maintain food and farming standards in future trade agreements. [908984] Damian Hinds: Colleagues across the House welcome the news about the Trade and Agriculture Commission’s Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): What statutory footing. It will be a strong voice for our steps the Government are taking to maintain food and farmers, and it will also provide expert independent farming standards in future trade agreements. [908990] advice for this House as we consider the impact of each trade deal on agriculture. When does the Minister expect Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): What steps those amendments to be tabled, and for the Trade Bill the Government are taking to maintain food and farming to resume its progress? standards in future trade agreements. [908991] Greg Hands: We plan to table that amendment to the Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): What steps Trade Bill on Report in the House of Lords. The the Government are taking to maintain food and farming scheduling of business is obviously a matter for business standards in future trade agreements. [908997] managers, but we intend the Bill to be completed by the Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): What steps the end of the transition period. Government are taking to maintain food and farming Duncan Baker: I represent a rural constituency, North standards in future trade agreements. [908999] Norfolk, where farming is the lifeblood for so many. My Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con): What steps the farmers are delighted about the Trade and Agriculture Government are taking to maintain food and farming Commission’s statutory footing, and that move has also standards in future trade agreements. [909005] been applauded by the National Farmers Union. Will the Minister reassure my constituents that the commission Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con): What will protect animal welfare and farming standards, and steps the Government are taking to maintain food and help to allow the farming sector to assess the deals that farming standards in future trade agreements. [909009] come forward for that important sector? The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands): The Greg Hands: I know from my right hon. Friend the Government are firmly committed to our manifesto Secretary of State how important farming is in Norfolk, pledges to uphold our high environmental, food safety, in both her constituency and that of my hon. Friend. and animal welfare standards. Under the European Farming has a strong voice on the Trade and Agriculture Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, our current standards Commission, and the NFU,NFU Scotland, NFU Cymru, are taken into UK law, and the Secretary of State has the Farmers Union of Wales, and the Ulster Farmers now placed the Trade and Agriculture Commission on Union are on it. It puts UK farming at the heart of our a statutory footing. trade agenda, and allows the sector to help advise on our future trade deals. James Grundy: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Government’s actions in strengthening the Trade Virginia Crosbie: I thank the Minister for his answer. and Agriculture Commission firmly dismiss the rumours The extension of the Trade and Agriculture Commission that UK food standards would be compromised as a has been incredibly welcomed by farmers across Ynys result of Brexit? Môn, and it shows this Government’s commitment to 443 Oral Answers 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 444 upholding our high food standards. What feedback has trade partners’ domestic production standards. That the Minister received from Welsh farmers regarding would have killed off a huge amount of our trade with that move? the developing world. He mentions NFU Scotland. I thought I would go directly to the source. I am reading Greg Hands: My hon. Friend is a strong and passionate here from The Scottish Farmer, which I recommend he voice for Ynys Môn farmers, and the feedback has been reads. NFU Scotland president, Andrew McCornick, extremely positive. Putting the Trade and Agriculture said in The Scottish Farmer only last week, on putting Commission on a statutory footing has been welcomed the TAC on a statutory footing: by NFU Cymru. Indeed, its president, John Davies, “This is a huge step forward.” said that this “is a milestone moment and one that should be welcomed by all Stewart Hosie: Putting an organisation on a statutory those who care about our food, environment and high standards footing is one thing, but protecting food standards is of production.” something different. I think the Minister’s answer is what Americans call doubling down on a previous Robbie Moore: Latest figures show that the UK’s mistake. Let me give an example. UK egg producers agrifood sector is now worth £122 billion to the UK’s simply cannot compete with imported eggs produced economy, and there is plenty of room for growth. As we where the density of laying hens may be twice that set out into the world as an independent global trading permitted in the United Kingdom. The only way they nation, will my right hon. Friend confirm that, even could do that would be to massively lower food production though we have the weight of the Trade and Agriculture and animal welfare standards, something we know from Commission in place, UK agriculture will be at the the recent Which? survey the public are implacably forefront of his mind as we go forward in future trade opposed to. Is it really the Government’s intention to be negotiations? on the wrong side of food standards, the wrong side of Greg Hands: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, animal welfare, the wrong side of the farming industry and—crucially—we would never want UK agriculture and the wrong side of public opinion? to be sidelined from our trade agenda. We need and have UK agriculture fully on board, to take advantage Greg Hands: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that of selling our fantastic British food and drink produce question. He mentions the Which? survey.I was delighted to foreign markets. Already, for the first time in many to be the guest speaker at the launch of the Which? years, we are selling beef to the US, pork to Taiwan, survey, “The National Trade Conversation”, where we and we have secured better agrifood protection in our discussed many of these aspects. To be absolutely clear recent UK-Japan trade deal. to him again, our commitment that there will be no lowering of standards on animal welfare, food safety Mrs Drummond: According to blind tasting, French and the environment is absolute. I urge him again to get champagne has nothing on sparkling wine from the with the trade agenda and listen to NFU Scotland, south downs. Hambledon, Wickham, and Exton Park which says it will are vineyards that produce brilliant wine in the Meon “strive to ensure that the best interests of farming, food and the Valley, and we have some of the best produce in the drink and the public continue to be front and centre of any trade UK. Will our free trade agreement support that burgeoning deals.” industry? That is exactly the right approach being taken by NFU Scotland. I urge him and the SNP to get on board with Greg Hands: I look forward to tasting some of this that positive approach for the first time, please. Meon Valley wine, although I have to say that 9.39 in the morning might feel a little early. Our commitment Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Government to promoting British wines is very strong. Among the say that they want to join the Comprehensive and potential 70 geographical indicators in the UK-Japan Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, comprehensive economic partnership agreement deal but some of its members allow growth hormones,genetically are: English wine, English regional wine, Welsh wine modified food in animal foodstuffs and insanitary and Welsh regional wine. We are in regular contact with conditions for animals. The CPTPP is already in operation, WineGB and the Wine and Spirit Trade Association to of course, and trade is permitted between its members help to promote this vital industry. on the basis of lower animal welfare and food production standards. How does the Minister plan to renegotiate Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): After listening the CPTPP to exclude the lower animal welfare and to these Whips’ questions, I think I would like some food production standards it contains, given that existing English wine as well, Mr Speaker. members of CPTPP say that they will not allow new I had a long and detailed discussion with NFU members to change the agreement? Scotland on Monday. In its words, it is “really worried” about future trade deals. Fundamentally, the UK is a Greg Hands: The Secretary of State and I have told high cost, high food standard regime. It argues that it the hon. Gentleman time and again at the Dispatch Box simply cannot compete with low-cost competition with that nothing in any trade agreement prevents this country lower food standards elsewhere. Is it not now time for from carrying out its own domestic regulation. We have the Government to change tack, and include chapters been absolutely clear that a lot of the production methods on food, animal welfare and standards in trade agreements? and food standards he describes will remain illegal in this country after 1 January. He mentions CPTPP.I urge Greg Hands: I studied very carefully the hon. Gentleman’s him to get on board with a positive agenda. Joining amendment during the passage of the Trade Bill. In CPTPP, a trading group of 11 countries, including many ways, he had an even more extreme amendment Canada, Singapore and Japan, will be a fantastic than the Labour party in terms of trying to dictate our opportunity. I am not expecting him to support it, 445 Oral Answers 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 446 because of course he never supported trade deals with goods worth £380 million to Japan. We have agreed an those countries in the first place, but I might hope he SME chapter that will make it easier for SMEs to cut could reconsider now. the red tape on customs and ensure they have access to a dedicated website of opportunities. Mr Speaker: Let us head to the Chair of the International Trade Committee up in Scotland, Angus Brendan MacNeil. Antony Higginbotham: Burnley has a significant engineering sector, creating highly specialised parts for Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) aircraft and cars, so will my right hon. Friend tell us [V]: A very good morning to you, Mr Speaker, on the what impact the UK-Japan deal will have on those day you have been waiting for: the day of the first report businesses in Burnley? on the UK-Japan comprehensive economic partnership agreement from my Committee. I am sure that you are Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right looking forward to reading it. Indeed, we are hoping to that the aerospace and automotive industry is incredibly have a debate in your Chamber, Sir, before the end of important for Burnley. That is why it was important the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act process— that we saw all the tariff benefits that were previously just to let you know. negotiated retained in the new deal, as well as additional On food and farm standards, yesterday we heard benefits, such as a new data and digital chapter that from Tony Abbott, the former Australian Prime Minister goes far beyond what the EU has agreed and really and now adviser to the Board of Trade, who said that helps to support our advanced manufacturing sector. when he had an important deal to do with China, he took the state premiers of Australia with him. I wonder Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) whether the Ministers at the Department for International (Lab): The Secretary of State has repeatedly claimed Trade will consider doing the same for important trade that the deal that she signed with Japan goes far beyond agreements, taking the Welsh Minister, Jeremy Miles, the original EU-Japan deal, so I return to the question the Northern Irish Minister, Diane Dodds, and the that I asked her two months ago: will she tell us, in high-flying Scottish Minister, Ivan McKee, who might billions of pounds and percentages of growth, what the indeed be leader of the Scottish National party and forecast benefits are for UK exports in GDP from her First Minister one day. We need that to happen given deal, compared with the forecast benefits of retaining that the UK Government are ready to burn particular the existing EU-Japan deal? sheep farming in Wales and Scotland by being outside the 45% tariffs. It is not just our standards, but the Elizabeth Truss: It is interesting that the right hon. standards of our neighbours that are really going to Lady is interested in the difference, because the Labour matter for farming. party did not support the original deal with Japan. If it was down to Labour, we would not even have this deal Greg Hands: I thank the Chairman of the Select in the first place. We have been very clear about the Committee for that, and I look forward to reading his additional benefits that we have secured: better provisions report. When it comes to the devolved Administrations, on digital and data, better provisions on business mobility, we all need to respect the devolution settlement, which a better position on intellectual property,better protection is that trade policy is a reserved matter and the UK of British geographical indicators—[Interruption.] The Government carry out their negotiations on behalf of hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) is shouting, the whole United Kingdom. It is also right, however, “How much is it worth?” from a sedentary position? that we consult the devolved Administrations, which is Why, when we have left the EU, do Labour Members why, since May, when I took over the role of interaction constantly seek to compare us with the existing EU with the devolved Administrations in this Department, provisions? It is almost like the Labour party never I have had six meetings with Minister Ivan McKee. We wanted us to leave in the first place. have the quarterly ministerial forum for trade. I have already described how NFU Scotland, two farming Emily Thornberry: What is going on? The Secretary unions of Wales and the Ulster Farmers Union are on of State claims that the UK-Japan deal goes far beyond the Trade and Agriculture Commission. We also make the EU-Japan deal but will not quantify the difference. sure that our trade advisory groups include representatives Why not? If she will not publish the exact figures at this from the devolved Administrations. Our commitment is point, will she at least do one basic thing and simply clear to negotiating the best possible deals for the whole state on the parliamentary record whether the growth in United Kingdom, while making sure that voices from our exports and GDP is forecast to be higher as a result Scotland and the other devolved Administrations are of the UK-Japan deal than it was under the EU-Japan very much included. deal? UK-Japan Comprehensive Economic Elizabeth Truss: I think it is extraordinary that the Partnership Agreement right hon. Lady is asking me to carry out economic analysis on behalf of the EU. She has not asked me Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): What steps about the Australia-Japan deal and whether that is better her Department has taken to ensure that small and or about the deal that China has with Japan or any medium-sized enterprises in the north-west of England other deals. Why is she me asking me about the EU? We can benefit from the UK-Japan comprehensive economic have left the EU, and it is no longer our responsibility partnership agreement. [908985] to do economic calculations for it. I have been clear, however, that this deal goes further and faster and The Secretary of State for International Trade (Elizabeth brings in additional economic benefits. Truss): Our deal with Japan secures opportunities for businesses in the north-west, which currently export Emily Thornberry: Is it higher? 447 Oral Answers 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 448

Elizabeth Truss: Yes, it is higher. The Financial Times FDI report highlights that last year the UK had more greenfield FDI projects than any Emily Thornberry: It is higher—at last! other country in Europe at 1,271; by comparison, Germany had 702 and Spain 658. We are looking to go even Mr Speaker: There we are. further to improve our high value investment offer, which is why the Prime Minister launched the Office for Free Trade Agreement: Canada Investment just last week.

Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): What recent progress Mark Eastwood: I congratulate the Minister on the she has made on concluding a free trade agreement with impressive inward investment results so far. What is he Canada; and if she will make a statement. [908986] doing to boost investment and broader trading relationships between the UK and the Asia-Pacific region and, in The Secretary of State for International Trade (Elizabeth particular, those with Pakistan, which is of interest to a Truss): We are determined to reach a deal with Canada number of businesses in my constituency? before the end of the year. It is a fellow G7 member and Graham Stuart: There can be no greater or more one of the top 10 economies in the world. It will help persistent champion of UK-Pakistan relations than my our trade, from cars to beef, fish and whisky, in a hon. Friend. The Government remain committed to trading relationship already worth £20 billion. increasing trade and investment with the Asia-Pacific region. We have signed a free trade agreement with Mr Baker: I was glad to see the good news on Japan, are negotiating FTAs with Australia and New Bloomberg that there is great hope that we will conclude Zealand and hope to be able to apply for formal accession that deal. Does the Secretary of State share my hope to the comprehensive and progressive agreement for that Canada, like Japan, will go further with us in trans-Pacific partnership, as already discussed. At the agreeing free trade than it has with the European Union? end of the transition period, the UK will put in place its own generalised scheme of preferences, and my hon. Elizabeth Truss: What we are negotiating at the moment Friend will be delighted to learn that Pakistan will is the vital continuity agreement, but I do hope that, in continue to receive the same market access to the UK the future, as Canada is a member of the trans-Pacific next year. The scheme will help British and Pakistani partnership that has advanced chapters in areas such as businesses to continue trading seamlessly after we end data and digital, we will be able to go much further and the transition period. build a much deeper relationship. UK Trade Policy: US Presidential Election Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): With just days to go, and with not just this continuity agreement Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): What still to be completed, British exporters such as our car assessment she has made of the potential effect on UK manufacturers simply do not know whether they will trade policy of the outcome of the 2020 US presidential face tariffs potentially as high as 20% in markets as election. [908988] diverse as Mexico and Vietnam and beyond. Is it not the truth that the Secretary of State has focused too Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): What much of her time chasing new deals with the Trump assessment she has made of the potential effect on UK Administration and others and taken her eye off protecting trade policy of the outcome of the 2020 US presidential the free trade that we already have? election. [908992]

Elizabeth Truss: The Government have completed Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): trade deals with 52 different countries covering What assessment she has made of the potential effect £146 billion-worth of trade. That is a massive achievement. on UK trade policy of the outcome of the 2020 US Unlike the Labour party, we are not prepared to agree presidential election. [908994] to any deal put on the table; we will work hard to get a deal that is in Britain’s interests. There are deals ready Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): What to go with the countries the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, assessment she has made of the potential effect on UK but I am not prepared to do a bad deal to push things trade policy of the outcome of the 2020 US presidential forward. We are pushing all those deals forward, and we election. [909017] are making good progress. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) Inward Investment: UK and other European Countries (Lab): What assessment she has made of the potential effect on UK trade policy of the outcome of the 2020 US presidential election. [909024] Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con): What comparative assessment she has made of the level of inward investment Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): What into (a) the UK and (b) other European countries. assessment she has made of the potential effect on UK [908987] trade policy of the outcome of the 2020 US presidential election. [909027] TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforInternational Trade (Graham Stuart): Latest Office for National Statistics The Secretary of State for International Trade (Elizabeth figuresreportthattheUK’sinwardforeigndirectinvestment Truss): We have made good progress on our US deal, stockreached£1.5trillionin2018—anewrecord.According agreeing the majority of text and the majority of chapters. totheUnitedNationsconferenceontradeanddevelopment, We are working with both sides of the House in the US the UK held the highest FDI stock in Europe in 2019. for a deal that benefits both our two nations. 449 Oral Answers 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 450

Andrew Gwynne [V]: But if the Secretary of State’s endeavours by guaranteeing to put climate change global Britain is to mean anything, we must not put all co-operation and green technology at the heart of any our eggs in one basket. I think it fair to say that, in US-UK trade deal? recent times, the Secretary of State has bet everything on securing a trade deal with the Trump Administration. Elizabeth Truss: I am absolutely delighted to hear She might want to conclude a deal with Canada, but the somebody on the Labour Benches being in favour of a Prime Minister there said that the Secretary of State trade deal. That is a real step forward. Of course we will had lacked the “bandwidth” to focus on getting a deal have strong environmental provisions at the heart of with his country. Does she intend to ignore that criticism our trade deal with the United States. I remember that and continue making a deal with the US her dominant Labour Members did not support a trade deal with priority? If so, what confidence does she have that the President Obama, and they do not support a trade deal Biden Administration will feel the same way in terms of with the current Administration, but I am delighted to their own priorities for trade? hear that they are supporting a trade deal with the new Administration. I look forward to working with them Elizabeth Truss: We have now secured trade deals to ensure that the climate change provisions are excellent. with 52 countries. We have secured a deal with Japan that goes beyond and above the EU’s agreements, we Sir Mark Hendrick [V]: A new US President and are working on accession to the trans-Pacific partnership Congress will not ratify a trade deal if we scupper the and we are negotiating with Australia and New Zealand, Good Friday agreement; our banning of Huawei so we are by no means entirely focused on the US, but it infrastructure has angered China, and now this Government is our largest single country trading partner. I am are prepared to break international law in the way we always struck by the anti-Americanism among Opposition leave the European Union. How many major global Members. They simply do not understand that these trading partners are this Government prepared to upset deals are incredibly important for British business. As before they do more harm to our economy than covid-19 for the comments from overseas Governments on our has done already? trade negotiations, it is interesting that Labour Members Elizabeth Truss: We have already done trade deals simply like to repeat their “lines to take”. Maybe they with 52 countries and we are on course to do many need to think of some of their own ideas. more, and we are absolutely committed to the Good Friday agreement. Mr Dhesi: We are all aware, sadly, that the Prime Minister has a litany of racist, sexist and homophobic Dame Diana Johnson [V]: As one of the MPs for the remarks, but to the detriment of our national interest, it Humber energy estuary, where we are doing pioneering seems that some of his foul-mouthedness has now caught work in areas such as carbon capture, it is heartwarming up with him. In particular, his derogatory remarks on to hear American President-elect Biden talking about President— the global climate crisis and the action needed to address it, and seeing this as a way of generating the jobs of the Mr Speaker: Order. Unfortunately, this has to be future. Will the Secretary of State expand a little on linked to the question that has been asked. what she thinks can be put into any trade deals in terms of this country’s green technology and making sure this Mr Dhesi: It is, Mr Speaker. creates the jobs needed on both this side of the Atlantic and the other? Mr Speaker: Right, well the hon. Gentleman had better get there quickly, please. Elizabeth Truss: In the new UK global tariff we have reduced the tariffs on 100 green goods, and we want to Mr Dhesi: It seems that the Prime Minister’s foul- encourage more other countries to support that. Of mouthedness has now caught up with him. In particular, course we are committed to working with the US, and his derogatory description of President Obama being next year we will have the presidency of the G7. That is part-Kenyan with an ancestral dislike of the British a really good opportunity for us to pursue that agenda empire— of tackling climate change, alongside our COP26 commitments, and of course we will be looking at Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry, this has to be linked putting these in all our trade deals. to the trade question. This is completely off beam. I am sorry, but we have got to stick to the question. As Matt Western: Although we would all want a successful important as this matter is, and the hon. Gentleman outcome to any trade negotiations with the US, will the quite rightly wishes to get it in, this is not the question Secretary of State confirm that, according to the to do so— Government’s own best-case scenario, any US deal with the UK will account for growth of only 0.16% over Mr Dhesi: It definitely is, Mr Speaker. 15 years? Will she confirm what this will translate into if we do not get a deal with the EU? What loss in growth Mr Speaker: I am going to make that judgment, and will we sustain? the judgment so far is that it is not. We are wasting time for other Members. Elizabeth Truss: Our assessment suggests that a £15 billion increase in trade will result from a US deal Helen Hayes: One of many sources of hope at the US and also that we will see tariffs of half a billion pounds election result is that after four years of climate change taken off fantastic British companies, be they in ceramics denial, President-elect Biden is talking about the global or the car industry, which will help to boost that growth. climate crisis and the action we must take to address But the EU deal and the US deal are not in contradiction it. Will the Secretary of State support him in those to each other; we should be aiming to do both. The problem 451 Oral Answers 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 452 is that the Labour party seems willing to agree any deal relentless pursuit of Scottish independence, rather than with the EU and willing to agree no deal with the US. the support for Scottish business, that they find the What Conservative Members want is a good deal for concern. I want to ensure, by using the power of the Britain. Union and our global reach, that we can boost Scottish business; otherwise, if follow the path of independence, Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) we know that would lead to a shrinking of Scottish (Lab): President-elect Biden has spoken powerfully about business and a loss of opportunity for Scottish people. the need to end support for the war in Yemen and to stop selling arms that Saudi uses, in his words, for Martyn Day: Rod McKenzie, the Road Haulage “murdering children”. Will the Secretary of State revisit Association’s policy director, gave evidence to the Scottish her policy on arms sales in the light of the new President’s Parliament in which he highlighted a no-deal Brexit statement or will she choose to remain in lockstep with scenario in which lorry drivers would be forced to rely the blood prince bin Salman instead? on European Conference of Ministers of Transport permits, of which the UK has been allocated around Elizabeth Truss: I am proud that we have one of the 4,000, despite more than 40,000 being required. In most rigorous defence export regimes in the world, and effect, that would stop the best part of 90% of companies those are decisions we make on the basis of our values trading with Europe. What assurances can the Minister in this country. give today that traders and hauliers will experience minimal disruption? Business Exports: Administrative Burden Graham Stuart: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and West Fife) (SNP): have been working flat out to engage with businesses, to What discussions she has had with (a) business provide easements on the customs regime up to July representatives and (b) Cabinet colleagues on reducing next year and to make sure that we minimise the challenges the administrative burden on businesses seeking to (i) as we end the transition period. Of course, the issue that export for the first time and (ii) increase their volume of Scottish businesses raise with me is that the biggest exports. [908989] threat to their trade is not any friction as we move to the new settlement on the EU border, but the fact that Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP): 60% of all Scottish exports go to England, Wales and What discussions she has had with (a) business Northern Ireland—more than to the rest of the world representatives and (b) Cabinet colleagues on reducing combined. It is that, and the threat that the hon. Gentleman the administrative burden on businesses seeking to (i) poses to Scottish business in that way, that really worries export for the first time and (ii) increase their volume of them for the long term. exports. [909004] Trade Policy: Consultation with Unions TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforInternational Trade (Graham Stuart): I talk regularly with businesses, Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con): What steps her business representatives, and ministerial colleagues about Department is taking to consult (a) trade unions and how we can make exporting easier for businesses across (b) civil society organisations on the development of the country. That is why I was delighted to announce trade policy. [908993] our new Scottish trade hub in September, which is staffed by expert trade advisers and dedicated to helping TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforInternational Scottish firms to grow internationally. I am pleased to Trade (Mr Ranil Jayawardena): We are committed to say that our work to reduce barriers to trade and increase making sure that our ambitious global trade policy exports is paying off; the UK overtook France in 2019 works for every corner of our United Kingdom. Trade to become the world’s fifth-largest exporting nation. All unions and civil society are crucial to that, so I am nine of the other 10 largest exporting nations in the delighted to have expanded our engagement to include a worldsawtheirexportsfalllastyear,accordingtoUNCTAD, dedicated trade union advisory group and a series of theUnitedNationsConferenceonTradeandDevelopment— civil society and think-tank roundtables from across the the exception was the UK. political spectrum, which I will chair. Douglas Chapman [V]: Around 250,000 businesses Edward Timpson: I recently had a meeting with Jonty export to the EU and not to the rest of the world. Many Cliffe and Claudia Bayley, the chairs of the Cheshire of them are small, not VAT-registered and difficult to Young Farmers Club, and they were concerned to make reach, and to continue to trade they will need to go sure that the views and priorities of all young people through a long and tedious process to acquire an economic who work in agriculture and affiliated industries were operator registration and identification number. As the fully integrated and taken into account by the work of party that wants to reduce red tape, what action are the the Trade and Agriculture Commission. I have raised Government taking to reduce the administrative burden this issue with the commission’s chair, Tim Smith, but to ensure that SMEs can continue, or start, to export will my hon. Friend also discuss it with the commission into Europe but do not suffer disproportionately from a to make sure that those views and priorities are taken madcap Brexit? into account, because those young people are the future of British farming? Graham Stuart: We are working to engage with businesses, and I recommend that all businesses that Mr Jayawardena: That is a great and typically thoughtful have not done so go to gov.uk/transition and look at the question. The TAC includes representative bodies from practical steps they need to take to prepare for the end the length and breadth of Britain, so I encourage young of the transition period. From my engagements with farmers and others to continue to share their views with Scottish businesses, though, it is clear to me that it is the those bodies, which work proactively to provide insight 453 Oral Answers 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 454 to us and the TAC. Indeed, as my hon. Friend says, he reassure me that those products will be respected and many young farmers—such as Jonty and Claudia in the protected in future trade deals, particularly with the US Cheshire Young Farmers Club in my hon. Friend’s and Australia? county and Tom Janaway in the National Farmers Union in mine—are already actively involved in sharing Greg Hands: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. their views. There is the potential inclusion of around 70 geographic indicators, 12 of which are from Wales—she is quite Japan Trade Agreement: Climate Change Commitments right—including Welsh beef, Welsh lamb, Welsh wine, cider, perry, Caerphilly cheese, Carmarthen ham and Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): What others. One of our key objectives is to be able to sell assessment she made of the potential effect of the free Welsh lamb into the United States—British lamb overall trade agreement with Japan on the UK’s progress on is not currently allowed into the United States—but we meeting its climate change commitments. [908995] will be fighting to get an improvement in Welsh lamb exports around the globe. The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands): The UK-Japan agreement locks in the benefits of the EU-Japan EU Trade Agreements: Rollover with non-EU Countries deal, including provisions on climate change such as those that reaffirm our respective commitments to the LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): UN framework convention on climate change and the What recent progress she has made in securing the Paris agreement; those that promote trade in low-carbon rollover of EU trade agreements with non-EU countries. goods and services; and those that support co-operation [909000] on trade and climate. The Secretary of State for International Trade (Elizabeth Christine Jardine [V]: Although I am disappointed Truss): We have made good progress. In under two with some aspects of the Japan trade agreement, such years, we have agreed trade deals with 52 countries, as the provisions on data, I am heartened that there is covering £146 billion of trade, accounting for 74% of no investor-state dispute settlement clause in the new the value of total trade with non-EU countries that we UK-Japan FTA, as ISDS has been used by large set out to secure agreements with. corporations to sue Governments over environmental Lloyd Russell-Moyle: We learn from The Telegraph regulations on issues such as water pollution, deforestation that the Minister has rejected the Ghana deal because it and fracking. Will the Minister confirm that, to protect was a “a substantial departure” from the EU deal, but our natural environment, the UK will not seek such an she says that the Japan deal goes far beyond the EU arrangement with either Japan or any other new trading deal. What is it? Are the Government exercising new partners after Brexit? British sovereignty to produce far-reaching new deals, Greg Hands: I thank the hon. Lady for that question. or are they just rolling over and accepting the same I ought to add first of all that we really welcomed the deals that we already had? announcement that Japan made on Monday, in advance Elizabeth Truss: The answer to the hon. Gentleman is of COP26, that it will be seeking to become carbon that we are seeking to roll over the Ghana deal, as we neutral by 2050. On her question about ISDS, I will be are other deals, but with Japan, we have gone through frank. This country is already party to ISDS with the process of producing a scoping assessments. dozens of agreements, but let us recognise that the UK [Interruption.] No, we were very clear that Japan was a has never lost a case brought against it in ISDS. It is deal that would go further and faster than the EU deal, something that is there as much to protect British alongside the new deals that we are negotiating with the businesses trading abroad as it is for foreign investors in US, Australia and New Zealand. There is a deal on this country, so her alarmism about ISDS is misplaced. the table for Ghana to agree to. It has already agreed to UK-Japan Comprehensive Economic Partnership the same deal with the EU. There should be no block on Agreement Ghana being able to get tariff-free, quota-free access to the UK, and we are very happy to talk to its representatives Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): What at any time of the day or night. steps her Department has taken to ensure that (a) Trade Deals: Human Rights Provisions farmers and (b) food producers in Wales can benefit from the UK-Japan comprehensive economic partnership Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): What agreement. [908996] recent discussions she has had with UK trade partners on including provisions on human rights in future trade The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands): The deals. [909001] UK-Japan CEPAwill benefit farmers and food producers in Wales through lower tariffs than would have been the The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands): This case without an agreement. It also allows more UK Government have a strong history of promoting our goodstoaccesspreferentialtariffsthanundertheEU-Japan values globally,including human rights.While our approach agreement, thanks to new rules of origin. New protections to agreements will vary between partners, our strong for more iconic Welsh food products may also be possible, economic relationships allow us to have open discussions including for Welsh lamb and coracle-caught sewin. on a range of issues, including on human rights. We will not compromise our high standards in trade agreements. Fay Jones: Twelve Welsh geographic indicator products have been protected in the UK-Japan deal on which I Cat Smith: In September, the UN said that the Saudi warmly congratulate the Department. I am particularly airstrikes in Yemen had led to pleased to hear the Minister mention Welsh lamb. Can “a consistent pattern of harms to civilians” 455 Oral Answers 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 456 unlike our own Government who said in July that there We remain firmly committed to the principle that trade was no such pattern and therefore it was lawful to helps to lift the poorest out of poverty, and early next resume arms exports. Can the Minister tell me how his year we will be launching a consultation on how we can Government have looked at the same evidence as the improve the preference scheme and help to use trade as UN and arrived at such vastly different conclusions? a tool for development. We will aim to have the new scheme finalised by the end of 2021. Greg Hands: May I remind the hon. Lady, as the Secretary of State said earlier in response to a question Greg Smith: With all our minds on both the health from the right hon. Member for Islington South and and economic recovery from the covid pandemic, Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), that the UK has one of may I ask my right hon. Friend what discussions she has the most rigorous arms control regimes in the world? had with her Israeli counterpart to further trade We follow the consolidated criteria at all times. On co-operation beyond the continuity deal, not least given trade agreements, I ask her to judge us on our deeds and the incredible and ground-breaking Israeli innovations not always on our words. In terms of the trade agreements to combat covid-19, such as through remote monitoring that we have rolled over, there has been no diminution of patients and thermal scanning? of human rights clauses in any of those agreements. Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is right. It is vital Exporting and Transporting UK Goods that we use trade as a way of motoring growth post this Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): What terrible covid crisis. We are working on negotiating a steps she is taking to simplify the process of (a) exporting cat’s cradle of trade deals around the world to support and (b) transporting UK goods around the world. British business. Of course, Israel is one of those priorities. It is very advanced in areas such as data and digital. [909002] There is strong scope for a world-leading agreement, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for and we are in discussions about that. International Trade (Graham Stuart): The Department for International Trade is working closely with Her Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab) [V]: From 1 Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and others to ensure January, the Secretary of State will be responsible for that businesses are prepared for 1 January. We have our trading relationship with other European countries. delivered specialist webinars and support tools to ensure With or without a deal, the services sector is concerned that industry understands the changes required to keep that its interests have been marginalised throughout the trading effectively with the EU as well as to start negotiations with the EU. This does not just affect trading under preferential conditions, such as those financial and legal services, but engineers, technicians with Japan. Looking forward, we are aiming to produce and others. Will the Secretary of State commit to the world’s most effective border by 2025, simplifying securing—as a start—mutual recognition of qualifications and digitising border processes so that exporters across to enable all these crucial sectors to work across Europe? the country will be able to sell their products around the world more easily once our free trade agreements are Elizabeth Truss: I am committed to having a positive agreed and in place. relationship with the European Union. I speak to my counterpart, Valdis Dombrovskis, about issues concerning Joanna Cherry [V]: A report published this month by global trade. Of course, we want with every part of the the National Audit Office estimates that the number of world good trade deals that uphold our standards and HM Revenue and Customs declarations that will need facilitate increased trade in areas such as services, data to be processed from 1 January will increase from the and digital, but the important principle is that we current annual volume of 55 million to 270 million. cannot do that at the expense of the UK’s sovereignty. That is a huge increase.What discussions is the Department Those are the negotiations that are currently being having with other Departments to ensure that this huge conducted by Lord Frost. increase in the administrative burden does not discourage exports to Europe and the world? [908956] Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con) [V]: I welcome all the work that my right hon. Graham Stuart: The hon. and learned Lady is quite Friend the Secretary of State is doing for post-Brexit right; there are a lot of challenges. That is why, across Britain. What assessment has she and her Department Government, we have been making such an effort to made of the advantages of our United Kingdom for work with other Departments to make sure that we do exporters and inward investment in the devolved everything possible to inform business and to facilitate Administrations? the border, including investing hundreds of millions of pounds in improving customs processes and others. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforInternational Topical Questions Trade (Graham Stuart): What an excellent question. It is the reach, power and financial heft of this United Kingdom [908955] Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): If she will that has allowed us to be the only top 10 global exporter make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. to increase exports last year and allowed us to attract more foreign direct investment than any other country The Secretary of State for International Trade (Elizabeth in Europe. Shorn of the UK’s assets, businesses—and, Truss): Last week, we announced that the UK will be more importantly,workers—in places like Scotland would continuing our trade preferences scheme for developing be impoverished as a result. We seek to ensure that we countries in 2021. It is important that developing countries use every part of the power of this United Kingdom to continue to receive the same market access under our support jobs and investment in Scotland, Wales, Northern unilateral trade preferences as they do at the moment. Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. 457 Oral Answers 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 458

[908959] Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) the EU was not prepared to sign up to but which (Lab): Can the Minister tell us how many trade provide so much value for advanced manufacturers in agreements due to take effect on 1 January 2021 being able to sell their products around the world. contain explicit human rights clauses? [908970] Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP): Can the The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands): I can tell Secretary of State assure me that the farming and agri the hon. Gentleman that there is no change in the effect sector in Northern Ireland can take part in and take the of the existing EU trade deals when it comes to human advantages of any trade deals that are made on rights and the role there of the UK agreements. I would the same terms and conditions as any other part of the urge him to look at those agreements and study the United Kingdom? reports that have been produced comparing the agreements Elizabeth Truss: I can absolutely assure the hon. with the original. Gentleman of that. I was delighted that the first cargo of British beef to leave for the United States of America [908957] James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): May I for 24 years left from Northern Ireland. simply ask my right hon. Friend for reassurance that our overseas territories will be fully factored into all [908961] Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con) future trade deals and continuity agreements? [V]: Businesses in Morley and Outwood are keen to reap the rewards of our independent policy once we Greg Hands: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. end the transition period. What is my right hon. In fact, I am meeting the overseas territories on this Friend’s assessment of the new regional comprehensive very subject next week. You in particular, Mr Speaker, economic partnership, and how are the Government will be impressed by the Secretary of State meeting planning to extend Britain’s influence in this specific Fabian Picardo, the Chief Minister of Gibraltar, only region for the benefit of all small and medium-sized last month on this. Getting our overseas territories enterprises around the country? participating in the UK independent trade agenda is very important. We recognise fully the constitutional Greg Hands: We follow RCEP quite closely, but we responsibilities we have for the OTs and we work closely are looking forward to making our application to join with them to ensure that their interests are represented. the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans- Pacific partnership, or TPP-11, trading group in the [908968] Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The average new year.This is an excellent trading group. Its 11 countries sheep pregnancy lasts 152 days, so tupping for next are a mix of like-minded western trading nations such spring’s flocks in Wales has already happened in the as Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, as well autumn. The Minister referred earlier to Welsh lamb as more developing nations such as Vietnam and Peru. being protected in Japan, but 50% of Welsh lamb goes There are great opportunities for all of us, including my to the European Union, so the big issue is knowing hon. Friend’s Morley and Outwood businesses. what will happen on 1 January for Welsh lamb. I do not want to have a go at the Government, but I do just [908974] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab) [V]: There want them to get a deal so that Welsh lamb will not be are reports that the Government plan to remove anti- priced out of its single biggest market across the whole dumping duties on imported bicycles at the end of of the European Union. transition, leading to a flood of cheap imports from China, which would be devastating for UK bike Elizabeth Truss: We are working very hard to secure a manufacturers. Can the Minister tell me what proportion good deal with the European Union and negotiations of the domestic market consists of bikes made in the are ongoing. However, it is important that our farmers UK and confirm that if it is more than 1%, anti-dumping have as many markets as possible. That is why we have duties should remain? worked hard to get the lamb market open in Japan in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 2019, we are working hard to get lamb into the US, International Trade (Mr Ranil Jayawardena): I thank which is the second-largest importer of lamb in the the hon. Lady for that question, which is important, world, and we are working hard to get more lamb into because we must apply anti-dumping measures in a the middle east too. clear and accurate way. The Department has assessed which of the existing anti-dumping trade remedies should [908958] Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): The be transitioned, and evidence has been provided by Government are moving at full steam to secure trade British producers of bicycles, which thus far has indicated deals around the world, and it is very welcome news that there are not sufficient British sales to transition that a deal with Canada is imminent. Could the the measure, but we will review any further information. Secretary of State reassure me, though, that when That information would need to demonstrate that the negotiating these deals we will focus not only on tariff British market share of British-based producers of the barriers but on non-tariff barriers, which are incredibly product in question was above 1%. important for our advanced manufacturers in Burnley? [908962] Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con): With the Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is correct. That is help of my right hon. Friend’s Department, McMenon why we want to join trade areas such as the trans-Pacific Engineering in my Workington constituency has recently partnership with very strong provisions reducing the opened a manufacturing facility in Dammam, Saudi level of bureaucracy required, and liberal rules of origin Arabia. Will she join me in paying tribute to its commitment that help our manufacturers. That is also what we are to exporting Workington’s talent and look to bring looking to negotiate with the United States. It is important the Board of Trade to its Workington facility for a that we get the advanced digital and data chapters that future meeting? 459 Oral Answers 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 460

Elizabeth Truss: I thank my hon. Friend for his invitation for freight and logistics in recent years, and must surely to the Board of Trade. It is likely that our next meeting be at the heart of our plans to make the most of our will be held in Northern Ireland, but I will certainly be global trade. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it looking to Workington for a future meeting to see the would be a brilliant site for an inland freeport? Will she fantastic work being done in advanced manufacturing. put a word in with the Chancellor?

[908982] Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): Despite Elizabeth Truss: I thank my hon. Friend for his the right hon. Lady’s bluster earlier, we all know that assiduous bidding on behalf of the east midlands. The the Prime Minister’s preferred candidate has decisively bidding for freeports opened on Tuesday, and bids need lost the US presidential election. Give that the Obama to be submitted by 5 February 2021. I point out to him Administration’s position was that Brexit would put the that these trade deals we are negotiating will just mean UK at the back of the queue for a US trade deal, where more and more trade coming into the freight hub, with does she think the UK stands in that queue now? or without freeport status, but I will of course mention what he said to the Chancellor. Elizabeth Truss: Given that the Scottish National party voted for even fewer trade deals than the Labour party,and are even more anti-trade than the Labour party, Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. I am delighted to hear that there seems to be some kind Members participating in this item of business and the of turnaround and that under a Biden Administration, safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am the hon. Gentleman will back a US trade deal. suspending the House for a few minutes.

Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): East Midlands airport is the UK’s biggest pure cargo airport. It has lots of 10.28 am potential for growth. It has become a hub of investment Sitting suspended. 461 19 NOVEMBER 2020 DHSC Answers to Written Questions 462

DHSC Answers to Written Questions To conclude, written parliamentary questions will continue to be a top priority on which I am briefed weekly. I thank you, Mr Speaker, and hon. Members 10.32 am for your and their patience and recognition of the Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con) (Urgent exceptional circumstances of recent months. In the Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Health and weeks and months ahead, we will work hard to restore Social Care if he will make a statement on his Department’s our leading performance, which hon. Members have a performance in answering written questions from right right to expect. hon. and hon. Members. Sir Christopher Chope: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this urgent question, which was born of extreme The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): Parliamentary exasperation. I thank my hon. Friend for his response, questions are a key element of Parliament’s ability to his contrition and his apology, and for his offer to do scrutinise Government on behalf of the people of the better in the future. United Kingdom. As the House would expect, we take them very seriously, and as you, Mr Speaker, and hon. If other Departments can answer 90% of named day Members will know, I take seriously all aspects of my questions on time, why cannot the Minister’s? Will he and the Government’s accountability to this House. set a date for the clearance of the backlog to which he Prior to the pandemic, my Department had an exemplary referred and guarantee future compliance with the rules record of providing accurate and timely answers. In the and the spirit of the rules? This is not just about last full parliamentary Session, despite receiving more timeliness; it is about the quality of the answers. Since PQs than any other Department, we had the highest this is the week of resets, will the Minister now tell his response rate in Whitehall. However, as hon. Members ministerial colleagues and officials to abandon their will be aware, DHSC, its Ministers and officials have tactic of, basically, dumb insolence towards those of us been at the forefront of responding to this pandemic, who ask challenging questions? with the attendant additional workload that has brought. Does my hon. Friend accept that these questions and As such, it is a matter of regret that we have been answers increase public trust in our democracy, and unable to sustain previous PQ performance, for which I should be a catalyst for improving public policy? If his rightly apologise to you and the House. However, it is Department is in the lead in suppressing liberty in this explicable in the face of a trio of concurrent challenges. country, is it surprising that there are more questions to The first is volume: between March and October this his Department than to others? Because issues of liberty year,we received over 8,000 written parliamentary questions are at stake, surely it is all the more important that these across both Houses. This compares with 4,000 for the questions are answered quickly. equivalent period last year. The second challenge is Edward Argar: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As he timeliness: we have met a rapidly, almost daily, changing will be aware, other Departments, while they have heavy situation, and answers drafted by officials are sometimes workloads, are not leading the response to the pandemic. out of date shortly after they are drafted. We have been In response to his final point, he will not be surprised prioritising accuracy of response to Members over speed, that I do not characterise it in that way. Instead, I would but this can mean that responses have to be redrafted, characterise it as the Department of Health being in the with attendant delays. lead in saving lives and protecting the NHS in this The third challenge is policy input: despite increasing country. the administrative resources to respond to parliamentary My hon. Friend asked two other substantive questions. questions, it remains the same policy officials who are I think his language was a little intemperate in respect responding to the pandemic operationally and drafting of the serious efforts that officials undertake every day regulations and are the only people with the requisite to try to provide accurate and timely answers. There is policy expertise to input into parliamentary questions no suggestion that they seek to stonewall or to avoid and responses. responding. They do their best, but it is difficult and the That said, Mr Speaker, although we continue to field situation changes day by day. Where answers are deemed exceptional volumes of parliamentary questions, I want to be inadequate, hon. Members often revert to me to reassure you and the House that we are not making directly or table their questions again, and we endeavour excuses in providing these explanations, and are taking to fulfil our obligation to provide accurate answers. every possible step to recover our performance. We have On my hon. Friend’s question about recovery, we instituted a parliamentary questions performance recovery have set a trajectory for each month in order to recover plan and are delivering against it by increasing resource performance over the coming months. Of course, that where we can and clearing the backlog, focusing on the depends to a degree on the workload of officials in oldest parliamentary questions first. responding to the pandemic, as well as in providing More broadly, throughout this challenging time the answers, but I do not see it as an either/or; we intend to Secretary of State and Ministers have sought to make recover performance in parallel with tackling the pandemic. themselves regularly available in the House to be questioned and held to account. Between March and October, the Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I Secretary of State made 18 statements and answered thank the Minister for his response and for the hard seven urgent questions. We have also seen seven general work he and his Department put in. However, as he debates on covid since March, and that is not including acknowledges, the performance here, like in so many junior Ministers’ appearances in the Chamber. This is other areas, is just not good enough. We know it is not an alternative to written parliamentary questions, tough, but there comes a point when it begins to look but it is an important reflection of our accountability to like departmental scrutiny is being used as a cover for this House. evading giving answers. 463 DHSC Answers to Written Questions19 NOVEMBER 2020 DHSC Answers to Written Questions 464

[Justin Madders] may, sadly, not live up to his expectations. I know that he will hold me and other Ministers to account when This morning, I looked at the Department’s response that is the case. times to my own written questions over the past six months. In answer to another of the hon. Gentleman’s question, I have had to wait over one month for an answer yes, I and other Ministers read not only the answers and 29 times, over two months 11 times and over three the questions, but the background to those questions. If months four times. I was actually thinking of putting in we do not, we will quite rightly end up at the Dispatch a question asking for the average response times to Box, being asked those questions again and being challenged questions, but then I thought I would just be waiting a on the Floor of the House. In view of that, and in view long time for that answer as well. I have even had to of our obligations to the public and under the ministerial wait five months for the answer to what I thought was a code, it is absolutely right that we take the answering of pretty simple question asking what tests for covid-19 written parliamentary questions very seriously. had been used. One hundred and sixty-eight days later, I On the hon. Gentleman’s final point about NHS received the utterly unrevealing answer: Digital and the publication of data and so on, I am “A large number of different tests have been used throughout happy to take that away and look at it for him. the programme.” I was lucky; my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss) waited 18 weeks thank my hon. Friend for his answer to my hon. Friend for an answer to a question on tests, only to be told: the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope), “The information is not held in the format requested.” who is a fellow member of the Procedure Committee. I Why did it take so long just to say that? Do Ministers was pleased to hear the Minister say that the Department even read the answers that they sign off? takes the answering of questions seriously, because the This is not just about the time; the quality of the answering and the monitoring of written questions and answers that we get back also needs improving. On correspondence from MPs will help Ministers to identify dozens of occasions, I have been told that the Department problems in the implementation and roll-out of does not hold the data, or no real attempt is made to their policies. answer the question that was asked. I accept that sometimes The Procedure Committee, which I chair, has shown that information may not be easily acquired, but too some leeway to the Department in recognition of the often it looks as though the Department wants to keep pressures that it faces, but I invite my hon. Friend to us in the dark. I remind the House that the ministerial come to the Committee in the next few weeks to explain code requires Ministers to be how he is going to address the backlog. “as open as possible with Parliament”, Edward Argar: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. even when that may be inconvenient to them. In the As a former member of the Procedure Committee, I spirit of openness, will the Minister also look at restarting recall when she kindly appeared before the Committee NHS England and NHS Digital publications? to answer questions on parliamentary questions at the In conclusion, we all understand that the Department Home Office. I look forward to the reversal of the is dealing with many pressing issues, but scrutiny is position in the coming weeks. important. Accountability matters, and if the pandemic is used too often as an excuse for standards to slip, that Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Was she any good? is how we go from questions not being answered to major policy changes being announced by media leaks, Edward Argar: I would say that she gave exemplary until we end up with the shameful spectacle of spivs and answers, which fully satisfied the Committee. I have cronies pocketing millions from PPE contracts.Government received the letter that she recently sent to my right hon. must do better. Friend the Secretary of State. We are grateful for the pragmatic and reasonable approach that her Committee Edward Argar: I was going to say that, as ever, I was has adopted. She will, quite rightly, want to scrutinise grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his tone, right up to performance, and I look forward to appearing before almost the end of his remarks. On his substantive her Committee to answer detailed questions on the matter. points, when it comes to accountability to this House, he will know from our regular double acts at this Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP): I Dispatch Box and in Committee that I and fellow am grateful for the Minister’s answer at the beginning of Ministers do not shy away from our accountability to the debate. I initially thought that it was perhaps a tad this House in all its forms. unfair to single out his Department in the circumstances. In my experience, others have been worse—I hope his On volume, as I have said, during the same period Treasury colleagues are listening. However, I will confine last year we received 4,000 written questions; this year, my remarks to his Department. My hon. Friend the the figure has been 8,000. That cannot be addressed by Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), the SNP increasing administrative resource alone, because the health spokesperson, was delighted yesterday to receive technical expertise of policy experts is required to provide an answer to a named day question that she tabled on accuracy in the answers that the hon. Gentleman and 22 June.It referred her to a table of data that, unfortunately, other hon. Members seek. The same policy officials are was absent from the answer. Perhaps the Minister could dealing, day to day, with all aspects of the response to ask his colleagues to get that table over to her, rather the pandemic. than her having to wait six months for a response. The hon. Gentleman talked about accuracy, and he is right about the importance of accurate and timely Edward Argar: I am again grateful for the tone that answers. Given that we have answered 8,000 parliamentary the hon. Gentleman adopts. We have adopted in our questions between March and, I believe, October, some recovery plan an attempt to deal with the oldest questions 465 DHSC Answers to Written Questions19 NOVEMBER 2020 DHSC Answers to Written Questions 466 first, to try to get as up to date as we can. If he or the Edward Argar: My hon. Friend highlights that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) lets workload from constituents has increased for all Members. me know the detail of that question, I will be happy to I recognise that. It is important that we do our bit in look into what he raises and to get that table to her. trying to answer questions in as timely a fashion as possible, to assist colleagues in the House with responses Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con): No one to constituents. In response to his second point, he is could underestimate the challenges that the Department absolutely right. As I alluded to, it is not only through of Health and Social Care faces at the moment. I thank attending the House and through its mechanisms that my hon. Friend for the way in which he has engaged Ministers have been accountable; as a Department, we with me and other colleagues during this time. However, have sought to use multiple channels—briefings to there are clearly operational challenges as a result of colleagues, WhatsApp and a whole range of newsletters this pandemic. My hon. Friend talked about the review and other mechanisms—to get messages out and to that the Department is undertaking. Will he ensure that communicate with colleagues and answer their questions. he shares the lessons learned from that not only with Members but across Government? We will have to look Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister at being diverse in our operational structures, particularly for his departmental response to covid-19 and many within Government, to ensure that we expediently answer issues.As one of the Department’smost prolific questioners, Members’ questions. I am aware of the pressure on the Minister’s Department to respond to a vast array of complex medical and Edward Argar: I am happy to give my hon. Friend social issues. Perhaps to assist the Minister, his team that assurance. Perhaps the best mechanism by which could work closely with the health trusts to provide lessons learned can be shared will be through my written up-to-date data in a timely manner. response—in due course—to and my appearance before the Procedure Committee, chaired by my right hon. Edward Argar: The hon. Gentleman is indeed a prolific Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen questioner, but his questions are always welcome and to Bradley). If appropriate, Mr Speaker, I will of course the point. He highlights an important aspect that affects share that response with you and with the Leader and the response of the Department, which is that a significant shadow Leader of the House. number of questions, and the information required to answer them, is not held within the Department but by Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On the plus side, various health trusts, NHS England or other external because I have the Minister’s and the Secretary of bodies, which can occasionally introduce additional State’s mobile numbers, when I really want an answer, I slight delays in the system. We are working closely with just text them. To be fair to them, they have been them to minimise that and get answers as quickly as we phenomenally helpful at key moments. I think many can to hon. Members. hon. Members feel that. At the same time, to be honest, the comms strategy this year has been a complete mess Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): I thank and a disaster. I urge the Minister to go back to the my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch Department and say that Parliament should not be used (Sir Christopher Chope) for raising this matter and I only for accountability but to try to speak to the people recognise the importance of parliamentary questions of this country and to get across clear messages in a for their role in parliamentary scrutiny, but it is only timely fashion. In that regard, will he tell us when he right that we recognise the substantial weight on the will publish the national cancer recovery plan, because shoulders of the Department of Health and Social Care lots of people have major anxiety at the moment about as it leads the charge against this pandemic. I personally when their cancer will be treated? have been blown away by the readiness and willingness of Ministers to engage through a whole range of Edward Argar: I am always pleased to receive messages communications, including Zoom, email and WhatsApp. and inquiries from the hon. Gentleman. He raises two I am grateful, in particular, for their engagement when important points. The Under-Secretary of State for it looked as though Bishop Auckland residents might Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member have been teetering on the edge of tier 3 over the for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill) is working on the summer, which we thankfully avoided. Can my hon. national cancer recovery plan at pace. I am happy to Friend confirm that efforts are being made to clear the revert to the hon. Gentleman when I have had an PQ backlog, but that other communication channels opportunity to speak to her. On his broader point, he is will remain open for MPs and their engagement? right that it is important that we in this House recognise that, in our democracy, people consent and comply Edward Argar: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I because they are persuaded. It is important that we use pay tribute to the officials in the Department, who are this House and all the mechanisms within it to persuade working hard to clear the backlog and do take this very and bring the public with us. seriously. As I say, we are trying to clear the older PQs first, and then get back up to the performance we had Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con) [V]: We have all before. She is absolutely right to highlight the other had enormous increases in constituency correspondence methods of communication. I may not be the most during the pandemic, so I can only imagine what it must technological Minister in this House, but we have been be like at the Minister’s Department. However, in looking seeking to use every means we can to try to answer at how his Department responds to MPs’ questions, will colleagues’ questions and to give them the information my hon. Friend reassure the House that any changes they need. will not come at the expense of his Department’s excellent parliamentary engagement and briefings for Members Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): In my with Ministers and scientific experts that allow us to time in this House, I have campaigned alongside women question advisers on detailed scientific and medical matters? and families affected by sodium valproate. Many of the 467 DHSC Answers to Written Questions19 NOVEMBER 2020 DHSC Answers to Written Questions 468

[Cat Smith] means to scrutinise, secure detailed information and hold the Government to account. Over a third of replies victims of this scandal have felt for decades that to my questions have been delayed for more than a Governments have tried to push it under the carpet, so month, and the longest delay was 190 days. I have had can the Minister understand the frustration and suspicion replies to letters outstanding for up to five months. Do that these victims feel when written parliamentary questions my constituents have any less of a right to a response? about the Cumberlege review, which was published on Does the Minister have any advice for me as an Opposition 8 July, continue to take a long time to answer—and spokesperson about how I can get more timely and when those answers come, they are very poor—and detailed information? their frustration that since July there has been no progress, beyond the apology in this House, in implementing that Mr Speaker: Mr Bryant might have the mobile number review? Can the Minister update the tens of thousands for you. of victims of the Primodos, surgical mesh and sodium valproate scandals and assure them that their campaigns Edward Argar: I am a little bit surprised by the hon. for justice remain high on his Department’s agenda? Lady’s tone, because she and I regularly speak, and she has very easy access to me around the House, which she Edward Argar: Again, I am grateful to the hon. Lady regularly uses, as do all Members. She has been on for the tone she adopts on what is actually a very various briefing calls and other calls where we answer sensitive and very important issue. I can reassure her data questions and any question that Members wish to that that issue does remain very high on the Department’s ask, and this House is for that purpose. Her constituents agenda. At risk of tempting fate, if she wishes either to have exactly the same right to answers as anyone else, write to me or to table a question to me, I will endeavour and they get exactly the same response as those of any to get it answered very quickly so she has something on other Member. Although this urgent question is about the record on that. written parliamentary questions, I would flag that the Department has received more than 63,500 pieces of Mr Speaker: Let us head up to Harrow East with Bob correspondence so far this year, compared with just Blackman and see if his replies have landed. 30,000 in the entirety of 2019. Wehave increased resourcing for that team, as we have for the PQ teams, and we are Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: Thank you, getting through the backlog as swiftly as possible. Mr Speaker. Can my hon. Friend also look at the quality and at the repeat questions that have to be asked Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) [V]: I refer Members to clarify the answers that are given to written parliamentary to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial questions? In my case, I have had to submit often Interests in terms of support for my local party association. detailed letters to Ministers because WPQs basically do I have recently tabled written questions on suicide prevention not supply the information required. Some that are now on the railways; earlier in November, a person in my coming back after six months of waiting have been constituency sadly died after being hit by a train. Will about, for example, offers to supply PPE to the national my hon. Friend paytribute to Land Sheriffs,a Harlow-based health service and people who have had tests but not security company which, through its railway security actually got the results—and I could go further. The programme, has intervened and prevented close to 300 reality is that the quality of the answers to WPQs as suicides on the railways across England? well as the quantity have not been good enough, so will he look at those two aspects, please? Edward Argar: As my right hon. Friend mentioned, he has recently tabled a number of written questions on Edward Argar: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who this issue, which I look forward to responding to in a landed his question very effectively. He is absolutely timely fashion. I am happy to pay tribute to Land right to talk about the balance between speed and Sheriffs in his constituency for its impressive work in accuracy. In some cases where the issue is complex, a helping to tackle and prevent suicide on the railways. I letter may be more appropriate for getting detailed know that the Minister for Patient Safety, Mental Health information, rather than the short factual response to a and Suicide Prevention will be very interested to hear parliamentary question. Sometimes the delay can be about its work. because Ministers—this goes to the point made by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: I and Neston (Justin Madders)—on reading the question thank the Minister for his answers today. I understand and the answer, and looking at it as a constituency MP the pressure on his Department—I really do—but of as well, may realise that they want to send it back for the 28 questions that I have tabled to the Department of redraft because it does not answer an hon. Member’s Health and Social Care, 86% were answered late, and if question. That can cause delays, but we endeavour to those due today are not answered, that figure will rise to provide accurate answers as swiftly as we can. 88%. I have to say that the quality of some of the responses is pretty poor too. Will he consider starting Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): I absolutely up the NHS England and NHS Digital statistical understand and appreciate the pressures on the Minister’s publications that were paused during the pandemic, so Department. However, it does grate that I regularly that we can get some of the information ourselves? hear, in debates in this Chamber, Conservative Members saying how quickly and easily they can get direct responses Edward Argar: I think the hon. Gentleman has four from Ministers. He himself referred to a WhatsApp parliamentary questions outstanding. By his timely group a few moments ago, and I suspect that that is for intervention, he may find that when I get back to the Conservative Members. For those of us on the Opposition Department this afternoon, I will ensure that the figure Benches, written questions and letters are often the only does not rise to 88% overdue. His substantive point is 469 DHSC Answers to Written Questions19 NOVEMBER 2020 DHSC Answers to Written Questions 470 the same one made by the hon. Member for Ellesmere Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) [V]: Port and Neston, which I said I will take away and Does the Minister accept that questions are sometimes look at. tabled to Departments in response to issues raised by our constituents, and that by failing to engage with Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): I understand Members in this way—I understand all the reasons why that since the start of the pandemic the Secretary of it is taking longer—it is ultimately the public who suffer State has made 16 oral statements in the House on the consequences? coronavirus and there have been seven urgent questions and five general debates on the topic. It is, of course, Edward Argar: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her important that Members receive timely responses to question. I refer her to the answer I gave to my hon. inquiries, but does my hon. Friend agree that there have Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood). been significant opportunities for Members to raise We recognise both the increased workload on hon. concerns on the Floor of the House and to seek answers Members from their constituents and the importance of from Ministers? timely answers to written questions in helping them to discharge that obligation to them. Edward Argar: I think it is fair to say that no one could accuse Ministers in the Department or the Secretary Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]: I thank of State of not being willing to be accountable to the excellent Minister for his response, but may I suggest Members in a multitude of ways. But of course, it is not that the covid situation is allowing the Government to an either/or, so we will endeavour to continue to perform dodge issues they do not want to answer? On the Floor well in attending this House and also to improve of the House, I asked the Secretary of State how many performance on written parliamentary questions. tests with false positives and false negatives there are. He dodged that question, so I tabled a named day Mr Speaker: Some might argue that it is the number question on 21 October, asking for his estimate of how of urgent questions we have allowed in order for debate. many tests with false positives and false negatives there are. Yesterday, I received a response saying that they Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP) [V]: Openness had no idea. They must have known they had no idea and transparency around the sharing of data is key to on 21 October, so it seems to me that that delay had ensuring that the public and the business community more to do with not wanting to put that information buy into the draconian measures that we have introduced out than any other reason. Can we have accurate and in the fight against covid. I genuinely thank the Minister timely answers, not politically motivated delays? for his and the Department’s efforts in ensuring that we get timely information, but on 21 October, I asked the Edward Argar: It is always a pleasure to see my hon. Health Secretary for data relating to positive cases Friend and to be questioned by him, both at this among those who had not been in the UK 72 hours Dispatch Box and in other forums. I have to say to him before their test, and I still have had no answer. Will the that I do not think it is a fair reflection to suggest that Minister agree to provide that data, which will be key to the Government or others are dodging answers. We are informing the full reopening of our airports, getting our at this Dispatch Box regularly. We do answer questions airlines flying again and kickstarting our aviation sector regularly. I will look into the particular question he and its supply chain? raises, but often to answer we require information from external bodies or other NHS bodies, which can take Edward Argar: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her time. question. My understanding is that there are, I think, five outstanding written answers due to her, dating from Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): November. She mentions one from October, so I will The Minister emphasises other means of engagement to check whether that has been answered overnight. If not, written questions, delays to which I too have experienced I will go back to the Department and look into that far too often. In April, I wrote to the Minister for Care, particular written question. the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately) with the concerns of a constituent of mine Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con): May I over personal protective equipment for care homes. I thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing so many urgent received a response in October. Will the Minister questions and statements, which allow so many Back acknowledge that those kinds of delays undermine the Benchers to ask questions? I am very grateful for that. confidence of my constituents in the Government’s All Departments have had a higher volume of questions, public health measures? Will he commit, which I do not not least the Department of Health and Social Care, think he has done so far, to putting in place the capacity because of the health pandemic. What assessment has and resources to respond to constituents’ concerns in a my hon. Friend made of the uptake of other forms of timely manner, in whichever format they are expressed? communications that have been made available? Edward Argar: I hear what the hon. Lady says, but we Edward Argar: My hon. Friend rightly raises the have already put in place that capacity. We have doubled other methods of communication with right hon. and the capacity for parliamentary questions and I have hon. Members and the other ways they can access significantly increased capacity for correspondence. The information—not as an alternative to written questions only thing I would say on correspondence, which she and scrutiny in this Chamber— which appear to have alluded to, is that at any normal time we have 850 pieces been extremely popular with Members on both sides of of correspondence open. Reflecting the volume that the House. We intend to continue to make such briefings comes in at the moment, that is about 10,000. We have and access available to all right hon. and hon. Members. increased the capacity in the Department, but, of course, 471 DHSC Answers to Written Questions 19 NOVEMBER 2020 472

[Edward Argar] Business of the House as long as volume remains high it will always be a 11.9 am challenge to keep up with that demand. We are doing our very best. Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Will the Leader of the House please give us the forthcoming business? Mr Speaker: I thank the Minister, because he has been courteous in the way that he has dealt with this The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob matter. He certainly has had the short straw. Rees-Mogg): The business for the week commencing In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members 23 November will include: participating in this item of business and the safe arrival MONDAY 23 NOVEMBER—Motion to approve the draft of those participating in the next, I am suspending the Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 1) (Amendment) House for a few minutes. Order 2020 and the Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 2) (Amendment) Order 2020, followed by a 11.4 am motion to approve the draft Common Organisation of Sitting suspended. the Markets in Agricultural Products (Miscellaneous Amendments) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 and the draft Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural Products (Miscellaneous Amendments) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2020, followed by a motion to approve the draft European Union Withdrawal (Consequential Modifications) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. TUESDAY 24 NOVEMBER—Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Bill, followed by a motion to approve the draft Prohibition on Quantitative Restrictions (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, followed by motion to approve a money resolution relating to the Prisons (Substance Testing) Bill, followed by a motion relating to the appointment of members to the independent expert panel, followed by a motion relating to the Committee on Standards 11th report of Session 2019-21. WEDNESDAY 25 NOVEMBER—The Chancellor of the Exchequer will deliver the 2020 spending review alongside the Office for Budget Responsibility’s latest economic and fiscal forecast, followed by a general debate on the UK-Japan comprehensive economic partnership agreement. THURSDAY 26 NOVEMBER—Debate on a motion relating to the final report from the Climate Assembly UK on the path to net zero, followed by debate on a motion relating to the Work and Pensions Select Committee report on the DWP’s response to the coronavirus outbreak. The subjects for these debates were recommended by the Liaison Committee on behalf of the Backbench Business Committee. FRIDAY 27 NOVEMBER—The House will not be sitting.

Valerie Vaz: I thank the Leader of the House for the business for next week and note that the motion on virtual participation was objected to last night following the urgent question that you granted, Mr Speaker. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept the amendment and, if he finds time for a debate in the House, that there will be a free vote—no proxies—and that all Members can take part equally. That is just a small step, but what we need is the giant leap to return to where we were. Yesterday, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister did exactly what you did not want—we had Prime Minister’s questions by Zoom. When the Leader of the Opposition had to isolate, we had the deputies taking part. Perhaps the First Secretary of State and the Prime Minister are scared of our deputy leader, but worryingly, Paul Waugh of The Huffington Post tweeted that the Prime Minister would be taking part in a debate virtually next week. I am not quite sure what the debate is. I am assuming it is the Climate 473 Business of the House19 NOVEMBER 2020 Business of the House 474

Assembly UK debate, which is listed for Thursday—he this ahead of the spending review. My constituent’s definitely did that—so I am not quite sure whether the daughter, who is an A&E nurse, contracted covid on the Prime Minister is designated as clinically extremely second occasion she was working, saving our lives, and vulnerable, or maybe he is just politically extremely she says she has to stump up £300 a year to park—to vulnerable. pay to park to save our lives. Our colleagues have important issues to raise. We I want to ask about Nazanin, Anoosheh, Kylie and now have two classes of MPs and, as the Leader of the Luke Symons. We must keep their names alive and House said in response to the urgent question, we have absolutely in the public domain. Iran is in the middle of privacy issues around that. The Chair of the Joint a horrendous pandemic. More importantly, they need Committee on Human Rights, the right hon. and learned consular access, so will the Leader of the House please Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), ensure that they get that? Will he also ensure that the has received advice that the Leader of the House is in Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office makes breach of article 10, on free speech, of the Human a complaint on behalf of Nazanin? She was used in a Rights Act 1998—article 14 gives effect to that. I know game of name that spy. That is a horrendous thing to do that the Government do not like the words “Human when it is not true. Rights Act” but if the Leader of the House looks very Finally, there is some good news. I congratulate Lewis carefully, he can trace exactly all those human rights via Hamilton—Lewis Hamilton the seventh. I also congratulate the convention back to Magna Carta of 1215. Marcus Rashford on his new book club initiative with I wish the Leader of the House would look at the Macmillan Children’sBooks. Wealso celebrate UNICEF’s issue of interventions, because hon. Members have been World Children’s Day. Let us all work to make the to Westminster Hall to sit in on the debate, and they world a better place for all our children. were told that they could not take part, or even sit there or intervene, because they were not on the call list. Mr Rees-Mogg: Before I come to the right hon. Please could he look at that? Will he look again at Lady’s specific questions, I have been asked to make restoring a hybrid Parliament now that we are in the right hon. and hon. Members aware that the 18-month middle of a pandemic—with 52,000 deaths—complete review of the independent complaints and grievance with remote voting? service is under way, and it is important that as many Could we have a statement on the EU negotiations? I people as possible take the opportunity to give their understand that they are proceeding at a rapid pace. views about the scheme. Alison Stanley recently launched Will he look at establishing a new protocol on the press an online survey, and I encourage every member of the conferences that will come from No. 10? I am sure you parliamentary community to take part. The deadline will agree, Mr Speaker, that it is important that we hear for giving views is 4 December. Please do take part in from the Prime Minister here first on issues and matters the survey and send any contributions to Alison Stanley arising in the House, rather than elsewhere, because we directly. have to hold Ministers to account, as the Leader of the May I of course join the right hon. Lady in celebrating House has frequently said. World Children’s Day? As I have six of them, I do my Accountability and transparency are so important. best to promote children as far as I possibly can. It is a Exercise Cygnus took place in 2016. The report was cause that I think I can show the House I am fully in only published on 18 October and, as Lord Sedwill said, favour of. I am grateful for her once again raising the some recommendations were implemented, but we do issue of people illegally detained and the difficulties in not know. Will the Leader of the House make time for a getting access to consular representation. Every week debate so that we can look at the recommendations and after business questions, I write to Ministers highlighting where we are? Many people throughout the country the issues that have been raised, which obviously includes have made sacrifices, and we need to know whether we that on a weekly basis. We are therefore ensuring that it are implementing those important recommendations. is kept at the forefront of Ministers’ inboxes, and they Last week, I asked about the procurement process, are doing what they can, though it is not easy with and the Leader of the House said that the Government regimes such as Iran. will have turned out to have behaved impeccably. Has he I turn to the various questions that the hon. Lady read the National Audit Office report, “Investigation raises about a range of issues. I would like to make it into government procurement during the COVID-19 clear that during the pandemic funding is being provided pandemic”? It found that the Government were not for NHS staff to get free hospital parking. I understand transparent about suppliers of services when they awarded that London’s King’s College Hospital said that it was £18 billion-worth of contracts. It said there were two going to have to increase charges, but it will not now lanes, with a super-highway for those with special political implement that until after the pandemic. It is important contacts. Again, I reference “My Little Crony”, the that people are treated fairly, and the Government have excellent graphic by Sophie Hill. The NAO also said provided the funding for that. that decisions should be “properly documented” and As regards procurement, the issue is that a great deal made transparent if taxpayers’ money is being spent had to be done and procured extremely quickly. The appropriately and fairly but that standards of transparency Government would have been much more criticised had in documentation were not consistently met. May we we not ensured that the equipment needed was provided. have a debate in Government time on that report? So 32 billion pieces of PPE have been provided since the Twenty-one million pounds goes to a middle man, beginning of the pandemic. It is important to recognise rather than to our frontline staff. The NAO report that the normal time for a tender is three months, and found that £350 million went to PestFix on false PPE, often it runs to six months. Had these normal procedures when our teachers and frontline staff were desperate for been followed, we would not have been getting any that PPE. Perhaps the Leader of the House can look at additional equipment until October. So are right hon. 475 Business of the House19 NOVEMBER 2020 Business of the House 476

[Mr Rees-Mogg] so much more than they can currently provide, including covid vaccinations. May we have a debate about expanding and hon. Members who are complaining about the role of community pharmacies and ensuring that procurement saying that the Nightingale hospitals should they have the funding model that reflects the work not have been opened until October? It is a ridiculous they do? proposition. Speed was of the essence and speed is what was provided. [Interruption.] The speed that was provided Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend raises an important was what was necessary, and it is worth pointing out point. Pharmacies have shown themselves a bedrock of that the vast majority of contracts of more than £120,000 in local communities this year. Their doors have remained value have been published. This is important because open and the pharmacists within welcoming and wise. transparency will ensure and will show that things are They have been a model of public service, and I commend handled properly. community pharmacies for the essential work that they The right hon. Lady raises questions once again have done throughout the pandemic. The drive to vaccinate about virtual participation. She said that there should the nation will require a great national effort, and my be a vote with no proxies. That would make it very hon. Friend makes an important point about the role of difficult for Members. The reason for having so many pharmacists in distributing and administering the vaccine. proxies is to ensure that the Division Lobbies are not He is right to raise it, and I will pass his suggestion on to overcrowded and that the estate remains as covid-secure the Secretary of State. as possible. That has been the fundamental principle of what we have been doing. The House has gone to great Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP) [V]: The efforts, Mr Speaker, particularly under your leadership, Leader of the House confuses matters with references to be a covid-secure workplace, not just for Members to MPs as key workers. Of course our democracy but crucially for those employed directly by the House cannot be compromised by covid. Members must represent and for members of staff at the point when they were their constituents and hold the Government to account, coming in. but we do not need to be in this place to do that. His Virtual participation is allowed in a number of areas continual references to “coming to work” show that he such as Select Committees and interrogative proceedings, does not understand the distinction between work and but it is not allowed in other areas, except—we hope, if place of work. It seems that he is unable to grasp that certain people do not object to it—in debates, for people many Members are working remotely. We should help who are extremely clinically vulnerable. The question them to do that. Indeed, that is precisely what we are we have to face is whether we should be treated in the exhorting every other employer in the land to do. A same way as our constituents. The Government advice majority of Members want to participate in debates is that those who are extremely clinically vulnerable without putting themselves and the public at risk, and should not go to work, but that if people need to go to they should not have to divulge confidential medical work, they should. We are in that position. We need to information to do so. When will he listen to his own come into work to do our job fully. People have to ask Back Benchers, the Procedure Committee and the Liaison themselves whether they feel they do their job fully Committee and switch the virtual technology back on? when they are entirely remote. I think that they will feel Let me turn to another matter. Does the Leader of that they do not. They cannot attend Public Bill the House agree with the Prime Minister that devolution Committees; they cannot attend Delegated Legislation north of the border has been a disaster, and that it was Committees— Tony Blair’s biggest mistake? Does he understand the insult that this is to the Scottish public? The Prime Valerie Vaz: You’re not letting them! Minister may claim that he is referring to the SNP Government, but that Government only exist because Mr Rees-Mogg: That is not true. There are not the the people of Scotland have voted for them—not once, resources to do it across all these various forums. The not twice, but three times. The truth is that the Prime resources are limited, and it is a question of how they Minister is attacking the democratic decision of the are shared out. We are ensuring that the bits that need people. Donald Trump would indeed be proud. The to be done physically are, and that MPs are here to meet exposure of this level of disrespect from a British other MPs, to see Ministers, to go to Westminster Hall, Prime Minister presents us with a grave constitutional to do the great variety of things that amount to the problem. Weneed to have an urgent debate on devolution, fullness of the role of the Member of Parliament. not just, as I have argued for the past six months, to Fundamentally, we should be in the same boat as our review its efficacy in the light of covid, but to clarify constituents. MPs do themselves and their reputation whether the British Government respect their own harm when they argue that they should have special constitution. In May, the Scottish electorate will vote treatment, as if we were some priestly caste. again. Now that the Prime Minister’s contempt for With regard to the right hon. Lady’s point about devolution is clear, a great many people will realise that human rights and freedom of speech, pull the other one the only way to protect the limited powers we have is to it’s got bells on. We have freedom of speech in this grasp the political power and capacity that comes with Chamber. It is protected by the Bill of Rights. It is independence. fundamental, and that is one of the reasons for coming together in this Chamber. Mr Rees-Mogg: As I have set out before, I and the whole House have the greatest sympathy for people who Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): are extremely clinically vulnerable and are advised not Pharmacists have remained open during this pandemic, to come into work and for making provisions for them not only in Carshalton and Wallington but across the to participate. I have sympathy with people who are in country. Pharmacists tell me that they are ready to do difficult circumstances that do not fall into that category, 477 Business of the House19 NOVEMBER 2020 Business of the House 478 even if the guidelines do not actually provide them with Formula 1 driver in history and it puts him among the the security that they may be asking for. I have much greatest sportsmen that this nation has ever had. I must less sympathy for members of the Scottish National confess: is there not a little bit of all of us, when we are party who do not actually like coming to Parliament in driving, who rather wish that we were Lewis Hamilton? the first place. When we are stuck at a red traffic light and the M4 As regards what the Prime Minister said about stretches out for miles in front of us, we think, “If only devolution, let us look at the SNP Government’s record, we could put our foot down a little and go a bit faster.” because it is a tragic record of failure. Schools were So I admire him, I congratulate him and I am even a once the pride of Scotland, but schooling in Scotland little bit jealous of him. has gone down under the SNP’s reign. Scotland has fallen to 15th in reading, from sixth in 2000. For maths, Mr Speaker: He might have to convert to electric as it is 31st—nine places lower than England—and down well. Let us go to the Chair of the Backbench Business from 17th in 2006 and fifth in 2000. They have therefore Committee. failed in terms of schools. They have also failed in terms Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) [V]: I am not sure of the economy; before the pandemic, Scotland’seconomy where the Leader of the House would put his six was forecast to trail the UK for the foreseeable future. children in a Formula One car. They have failed in terms of policing; crime is on the rise, and most areas of Scotland have fewer police Next Thursday, we have two debates suggested by the officers on the frontline since the SNP forced the police Liaison Committee, and the Leader of the House has merger through. been kind enough to tell us what they are. I will just explain to the House that this is a time swap for estimates Before the crisis, the SNP was causing the NHS to day debates, which are chosen by the Backbench Business suffer. The £850 million waiting times improvement Committee on behalf of the Liaison Committee. Although plan was a failure; Scotland’s public sector watchdog we are slowly but surely getting through the backlog of said that the NHS was under increasing pressure in applications since the reopening of Westminster Hall, 2019; and the SNP has failed to tackle Scotland’s chronic we still have a queue of about 20 as yet unallocated shortage of GPs. After years and years of SNP debates, so we hope that the recent flow of time for grandstanding on welfare, the party is failing to deliver Backbench Business continues for the remainder of on its own welfare promises, and SNP Ministers even this Session. had to hand back responsibility for one benefit to the Department for Work and Pensions. Before coming to this House, I was for 27 years a member of Gateshead Council. I care deeply about the The failure of devolution is the failure of the Scottish welfare of Gateshead Council, its staff and all the National party, and—just to add to the fun of it—its people that it serves. We keep hearing from Ministers members are also mired in some discussion about who about how much money has been allocated to local can remember who sent texts to whom, but it might be authorities in response to the pandemic. In Gateshead ungracious of me to delve into the inner workings of we have received, I understand, something like £22 million, the relationship between very fishy Scottish figures. but the expenditure on managing the pandemic is something like £70 million, a shortfall of £50 million or so. Can we Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): As was referenced do something about redressing this imbalance of earlier, lifting our spirits from the gloom of lockdown, expenditure over income as a result of the pandemic for on Sunday, Lewis Hamilton secured his seventh Formula local authorities around the country? 1 world championship, having smashed through all the other records, with 94 race wins—seven of which were Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman here at home, at Silverstone—and 97 pole positions. He for reminding the House about the swap for estimates is without doubt the most successful British sportsman. days with the Liaison Committee. As he won the Turkish Grand Prix, he said: On council funding, I just remind the hon. Gentleman “That’s for all the kids out there that dream the impossible. that, so far, £7.2 billion has been provided to local You can do it too”. councils in additional expenditure, plus £24 billion for With that in mind, will my right hon. Friend join me in local businesses, and another £3 billion included in that sending the congratulations of this House to Lewis sum was announced recently, so there is a very large Hamilton for all that he has achieved, agree that it is flow of funds going through to councils to support high time that he was honoured with a knighthood and them in this very difficult period, which means that schedule a debate on ensuring that children are encouraged councils are getting the money that they need. to take up science, technology, engineering and maths subjects to become the engineers of the future and take Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) [V]: In addition to up motorsport in Lewis Hamilton’s tyre tracks? previous generous support, the Government have recently granted Crawley Borough Council a further £5.6 million Mr Speaker: May I just say that knighthoods are not in funding for the latest period of covid-19 restrictions, a matter for the Leader of the House? He has many yet this local authority, which unfortunately has a record duties, but that is not one of them. of financial mismanagement and reserves of well over £20 million, is complaining that it is not enough. Can Mr Rees-Mogg: One of my children thinks that Mr Ben we have a statement from the Secretary of State for Stokes ought to have a knighthood, too, and I point out Housing, Communities and Local Government about to him that this is also not a matter for me. ensuring that such irresponsible councils are audited? The right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) also wanted to congratulate Lewis Hamilton. What Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend raises a really important a fantastic performer he has proved to be, and what a point. I have just set out the very large amounts of model for the nation. He is, statistically,the most successful money that are being made available, but some incompetent 479 Business of the House19 NOVEMBER 2020 Business of the House 480

[Mr Rees-Mogg] Mr Rees-Mogg: The magical Big Top toy shop sounds like a wonderful place to visit, full of treats. I wish I councils are not spending that money well. It is noticeable were going to be in Glasgow in the run-up to Christmas that they are often socialist-run councils that are not and have the opportunity to visit it, but I fear that will doing things properly, and he is right to ensure that they not be possible on a number of counts. The hon. Lady are held to account. Last year, the Government raises a matter of concern to Members from all parties commissioned Sir Tony Redmond to undertake a and throughout the various parts of the United Kingdom. comprehensive review into the quality of external audit, A great deal of support has been given to businesses— and the Government are considering its findings and overall, there has been £100 billion in business support will respond in due course. via bounce back loans, grants, rate reliefs and VAT deferrals—but the current level of closures is very difficult, Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab) [V]: The Leader particularly for small businesses. If the Chairman of the of the House, being a father to six children himself, will Backbench Business Committee, the hon. Member for hopefully be aware that on Tuesday we marked World Gateshead (Ian Mearns), is still on the line, he will Prematurity Day. He may not, though, be aware of the understand that many Members would like to debate specific struggles that thousands of families up and this important subject. down the country who have incredibly poorly babies in neonatal care are currently going through. I can truly Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con): It is National Lorry say from my own experience that those days, weeks and Week, and there are very few people in this country who months spent worrying about your neonate are truly have not relied on the transport industry’s keeping calm some of the most agonising you will ever go through as and carrying on doing the pandemic. Whether it is a parent. Parents with children in neonatal care should food, goods, machinery or medicine, if we need it, the clearly be able to take specific leave from their jobs and transport industry delivers it, often while we are sleeping. should not be financially out of pocket because of In the Stroud constituency, companies such as Cullimore, doing so. Will the Leader of the House therefore please Smiths, Howard Tenens and many more employ thousands commit to a debate in Government time to address this of people in Gloucestershire, and they have my thanks. issue and ultimately give hope to parents in their time of Will the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State absolute desperation? for Transport to make a statement on this vital industry— which is dealing with covid, drivers’ facilities and Brexit Mr Rees-Mogg: I have the greatest sympathy for what planning, and doing so much to reduce its carbon the hon. Lady has set out, and I have some direct footprint—and to celebrate the Road Haulage Association’s knowledge of the issue—not with my own children but “HGV Heroes”? from children who are closely connected to me. It is a very difficult and troubling time for parents and they Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is right to raise the deserve support. In the first place, I urge the hon. Lady fantastic work that lorry drivers do. “HGV Heroes” is a to seek an Adjournment debate, but I think the sympathy great title for them, because they have continued to of the whole House is with the argument she has made. work throughout the pandemic and have been absolutely Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): The Guardian essential in ensuring that we are supplied with the newspaper has applied for the release to the media of necessities of life. National Lorry Week is a good thing character references that were provided to a judge solely to celebrate. Although when one is stuck behind a to assist in sentencing during a criminal trial. If allowed, convoy of lorries on the M4 thinking that one wants to this would be a fundamental change of practice, with be Lewis Hamilton, one may not be as sympathetic as far-reaching consequences for the criminal justice system. one ought to be, they are actually essential to the Will my right hon. Friend allow time for an urgent lifeblood of our nation: they keep the wheels of the debate on this vital matter? economy turning and the engine of growth functioning. Mr Rees-Mogg: It would obviously be wrong for me Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): May I also congratulate to comment on a specific case, but my hon. Friend Lewis Hamilton on his extraordinary achievement, but raises a concerning point. If people have, in a generality, since the Leader of the House and I enjoy disagreeing, I given evidence to a trial on the understanding that is have to say I absolutely do not feel tempted to speed confidential, it risks people not being willing to give when I sit behind my wheel. Speeding belongs to the such evidence in future if what is believed to be confidential racetrack, not on our roads. turns out not to be. A just system requires certainty, Last week marked the 25th anniversary of the Disability whatever degree of certainty that is. In individual cases, Discrimination Act 1995, and we have made a lot of I understand that it is a matter for the trial judge, under progress since towards equality for people living with a rule 5 of the criminal procedure rules, but I will of disability.However,the pandemic has greatly disadvantaged course refer this matter to my right hon. and learned people living with a disability,and we risk going backwards Friends the Lord Chancellor and the Attorney General. on the progress we have made, so can we have a debate in Government time about disability discrimination since Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): As we the pandemic started? head into phase 4 lockdown in Glasgow on Friday, this is a really difficult time for small businesses such the Mr Rees-Mogg: I am delighted that the hon. Lady Velvet Moon gift shop in Finnieston, the magical Big wants to celebrate the great achievement of my noble Top toy shop in Charing Cross, independent cafés such Friend Lord Hague, who was the Minister who piloted as Canary Girl Coffee Co, and the brand-new Cùrlach the Disability Discrimination Act through Parliament hairdressers in Govanhill, so may we have a debate on 25 years ago. It was a landmark piece of, it has to be what we can all do to support small businesses and their said, Conservative legislation. It would be a good thing owners as we head towards the festive period? to debate the success of this legislation and the 481 Business of the House19 NOVEMBER 2020 Business of the House 482

Conservatives’commitment over 25 years to end disability Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. discrimination—I think that is something all parties Paeans of praise should be prepared for our Prime wish to see. I cannot promise a debate in Government Minister in celebration of his achievement in getting us time, but the hon. Lady knows how to go about applying out of the European Union and delivering on what was for debates in other ways. promised to the British people and what they voted for, but my hon. Friend asks me to guarantee something Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con) [V]: Last based on something that is theoretical, and a guarantee week, our nation came together to give our thanks and based on something that is theoretical is not really a to honour the extraordinary sacrifices of those who guarantee, so I cannot give it. gave their today for our tomorrow. Rutland and Melton is home to a great number of our armed forces and a John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Surely, in reality, the thriving veteran community, and it is a deep privilege to most important issue facing the country and this House represent them every single day. Does my right hon. is the renewal or otherwise of the lockdown, so I am Friend share my concerns around a sinister anti-poppy surprised and slightly concerned that it is not clear campaign that offensively seeks to recast poppies as a when that will be debated. Many MPs on all sides want sign of nationalism and warmongering when, in fact, to move on from risk avoidance to evidence-based risk poppies are a sign of our gratitude for our safety and management. Many sporting and leisure venues have security and a universal symbol of human virtue and loss? invested in helpful and costly improvements, and whether they are football and rugby clubs, racecourses, betting Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. shops, bingo halls, casinos, airports, shops, gyms, pubs, The growing popularity of the poppy appeal in the past clubs, restaurants or cafés, they all need some degree of 20 years has been a wonderful expression not only of change, help and actual opportunity. Can we have an popular patriotism, but of an understanding that the urgent focused debate and a vote on proper alternatives, first world war was the war to end all wars. The poppy rather than the usual all-or-nothing, take-it-or-leave-it was the symbol of regrowth after disaster. It was not approach? there to be something to be jingoistic about. People who think that it is are misunderstanding it and are joining Mr Rees-Mogg: One of the things the right hon. in a rather unpleasant anti-British culture that sees the Gentleman asks for is not possible, because statutory sacrifice made by our ancestors as being jingoistic, instruments are introduced on the basis of take it or rather than as something actually to safeguard liberty, leave it. The law has to be clear, and it has never been freedom and hope. possible to amend statutory instruments. On his broader point, I am glad to say we have the most freedom-loving Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) Prime Minister that we could have. In at least 100 years, (Lab) [V]: Last week, the all-party parliamentary group there has been no other Prime Minister who is more on haemophilia and contaminated blood published our freedom loving, and therefore the desire to get back to report on access to treatment for people with bleeding ordinary ways of living is very strong, assuming that it disorders. Sadly, we found that many patients were not can be done in a way that is safe for the nation at large. I included in decisions about their treatment, and we can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government found a lack of diagnosis and access to treatment for have made a commitment that any matters of national girls and women. As the Leader of the House knows, significance will be brought before this House before this group was at the centre of the scandal that is they are introduced. I cannot give the timings on that, currently the subject of the NHS infected blood inquiry. because the decisions have not been made, but the basic Improvements to treatment need not wait for the outcome choice of the House is that any new statutory instruments of Sir Brian Langstaff’s inquiry, though, so can we will come before this House for a vote if they are of please have a debate on how the Government might national significance. take forward the 19 recommendations in our report? Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con): My right hon. Friend Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady has campaigned on is justly and naturally proud of the county of Somerset—it this issue so effectively for a long time and has been is, after all, the cheese capital of the south-west—but he enormously successful in her campaign, and rightly so, will know that while his half-naked ancestors were because the contaminated blood issue is one of great sitting about watching what happens when you leave seriousness and difficulty for the people who were affected. milk out for a very long time, the men and women of I cannot promise her a debate, but as I have said to her Wiltshire were building some of the wonders of the before, if there are specific issues she would like taken ancient world, such as Avebury, Stonehenge and Silbury up with Ministers from these sessions, I will unquestionably Hill. Does he agree that, for the sake of both our do so on her behalf. counties, the Great West Way, which is the tourist trail between London and Bristol following ancient routes— Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]: I hope including the Kennet and Avon canal, where the speed the Leader of the House will agree with me that the limit is only 4 mph—deserves all our support? Does he greatest achievement so far of the Prime Minister, among share my hope that next week’s spending review will many achievements, is to implement the decision of the include a commitment to fund new tourism zones, of British people to leave the EU. This Tuesday, Lord Frost which the Great West Way should be the first and the indicated that the trade deal may well be landed. If that greatest? is the case, will the Leader of the House guarantee a statement on that day and, later in the week, a debate Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is right to say that on the trade deal or, if there is not a trade deal, on what Wiltshire is a great county, because in 878 it was on the will come next? Let us be able to celebrate what is a right side of the battle of Edington, where Alfred fantastic achievement by our Prime Minister. defeated the Danes and where the good people of 483 Business of the House19 NOVEMBER 2020 Business of the House 484

[Mr Rees-Mogg] Backbench Business debate on the regulation and prevention of online harms, and I am sure there will be Somerset, Wiltshire and Hampshire came together for other opportunities in due course. that historic victory on which this country is essentially founded. He is wrong, however, to highlight the ancient Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): The Leader of monuments of Wiltshire, because there is a much better the House will be aware of the National Audit Office one in Stanton Drew. It is of greater antiquity, greater report on government procurement during the pandemic, beauty and greater interest, and I would suggest that which, although acknowledging the exceptional people go to Stanton Drew rather than to Stonehenge circumstances that did apply, identified many problems so that they do not have to worry about the A303. with the processes that had been undertaken and highlighted However, the Great West Way is a fantastic route—you the need to maintain public trust in the process. I accept can make a detour off it to go and visit Edington, where that there are regular general debates on covid-19 in the the battle may have taken place. The Government are Chamber, but this report surely merits a more detailed supporting it via the £45 million Discover England exploration by Members. Will he therefore make time, fund, so let Somerset, Wiltshire and Hampshire rejoice in early course, to allow a full debate in this Chamber in our shared and distinguished history. on that report and its content? Mr Rees-Mogg: I refer to what I said earlier: there Mr Speaker: Just for the record, the hon. Member for has been an extraordinary success in procurement, which Devizes (Danny Kruger) might want to know that the had to be done quickly and everybody wanted it done Leader of the House last week said how important it quickly. For example, the vaccine taskforce has secured was to see Stonehenge, as he travels past in on the A303. agreements for 350 million doses of seven leading vaccines; 300,000 people have signed up to the vaccine registry to Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab) [V]: As accelerate this development; and, through Test and you know, Mr Speaker,we have a public health emergency Trace, nearly 36 million tests have been completed and in Hull, with the highest covid infection rate in the we have the capacity to test half a million a day. I country, but my city is being left in the dark with no believe that 80% of contracts over £120,000 have been contact from Ministers and we are being hung out to published so far, so that there is transparency. There is dry without any additional financial support. Could we always a choice; everyone knows that if they have a leak please have a statement as to why no Government at 2 o’clock in the morning and call the plumber out, it Minister has picked up the phone to our council leader, costs more than if they book the plumber to come in Councillor Stephen Brady? three months’ time. We were in the situation of having a leak at 2 in the morning, so it was inevitably expensive. Mr Rees-Mogg: I know this matter came up in the debate yesterday and that the Paymaster General, my Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con) [V]: Does the right hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North Leader of the House agree that given the nature of our (Penny Mordaunt), responded to say that role, MPs who can attend Parliament in person should “during the course of the debate I arranged for the covid-19 do so and that any motion to extend remote participation taskforce—who, through the Cabinet Office and my office, will to debates should be based on clinical vulnerability, in co-ordinate this—to have a meeting with the hon. Lady”— accordance with the Government guidance, rather than the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame personal choice? Our fantastic broadcast team, Parliament’s Diana Johnson)— house staff, teachers, postmen, supermarket workers, “ and any other people, whether colleagues in this place or the delivery drivers and our NHS workers leave home to go local resilience forum.”—[Official Report, 18 November 2020; to work, and so should we. Vol. 684, c. 430.] Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is absolutely right So I believe that this is in hand, as of yesterday. about that. Members of Parliament are key workers and should not be treated any differently from other key Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): May we have an workers, many of whom have been continuing to come early debate, in Government time, on the regulation and into work since the start of the pandemic. It is the prevention of online harms? This afternoon’s Backbench Government’s strong view that Parliament best serves Business debate, which was already the amalgamation the UK public when MPs are present in Westminster of two approved Backbench Business Committee debates carrying out their essential functions. Just as hospitals on the subject, has had its time substantially truncated and schools provide essential services in health and by Government business on the Order Paper today. This education, Parliament performs an essential constitutional is a matter of considerable concern to colleagues in the role, making and changing legislation, debating key House—the debate was heavily subscribed—and to people issues and scrutinising the work of government. The outside it, and of course the Government’s online harms House authorities have made every effort to ensure that Bill is still long-awaited. the physical proceedings in operation are in line with Public Health England guidance and safe for Members Mr Rees-Mogg: Online harms continue to be a priority and the staff of the House. Our approach has evolved of the Government, and we are firmly committed to as the pandemic has evolved, and we are pleased that making the UK the safest place to be online. My right this latest change, if it is accepted by the House, will hon. and hon. Friends in the Department for Digital, allow those who are clinically extremely vulnerable to Culture, Media and Sport and the Home Office are participate. working to introduce legislation next year. We will also be publishing our full response to the online harms LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): White Paper consultation. My hon. Friend will have I have a number of constituents whose landlords have further opportunity to raise this issue again during the backtracked on their word, having said that they would 485 Business of the House19 NOVEMBER 2020 Business of the House 486 give rent relief but now saying that it is only a rent 12 million testing kits going to 14 million care homes deferral. They have even been taken to court because and £200 billion of taxpayers’ money spent to support the law is weak and the advice is unclear. Can we have a the economy. There is an amazing record of hard work proper debate about housing and whether the Government being done to help us through this difficult period, and will fulfil their manifesto commitment of bringing forward advice is welcome from all sources, however eccentric a renters’ rights Bill that will ban section 8 and section 21 they may be, including the hon. Gentleman. evictions once and for all? Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con): My right hon. Friend Mr Rees-Mogg: It is worth setting out what the will know that the east midlands has amazing economic Government have done. During the first wave, evictions potential, and one way in which we can fulfil that were banned for six months, protecting 8.6 million potential is the building of a freeport alongside East households. We then doubled the eviction notice period Midlands airport. That will bring skilled jobs to our from three to six months, meaning that if someone is region and major investment, and it is supported by served notice today, they can stay in their home until Conservative colleagues across the region. Can we have May in all but the most serious cases. Tenants are being a debate in Government time on the strength of the protected, but obviously there needs to be a balance application that the east midlands is putting forward? between landlord and tenant. Mr Rees-Mogg: I am tempted, but I am limited by Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): I understand what I am allowed to say.The Government have published that the housing target standard methodology is being a bidding prospectus for freeports in England, setting tweaked, but does my right hon. Friend agree that in out how ports can apply for freeport status and further central London, it needs to be not only tweaked but details on our proposals for the policy. The bidding radically changed? In my local authority, the housing period will close on 5 February, but I wish my hon. target goes from 450 to almost 3,300—a sevenfold Friend’s application for a freeport every success. It is a increase. Will he make time for a debate about how we really exciting policy development. Mr Speaker, you are can get more housing, which we urgently need, in a way a kindly gentleman, and I am sure you will look favourably that is achievable and practical? on an application for an Adjournment debate, so that my hon. Friend can praise his area at greater length. Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful that my hon. Friend agrees that we must increase housing supply, so that a new generation of young people have the opportunity David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): Mr Speaker, I to buy their own home. The current formula for local am sure that you, like me, are an avid reader of Martin housing need is inconsistent with our aim to deliver Lewis’s Money Saving Expert website. Will the Leader 300,000 homes annually by the mid-2020s, and we are of the House join me in commending to our constituents committed to reviewing it at this year’s Budget. We will the availability of tax relief for those working from amend planning rules so that infrastructure, roads, schools home? Can we have a statement or something else from and GP surgeries come before people move into their the Government encouraging our constituents to apply new homes. We want to get the balance right when for that tax relief, as many of them are working from determining local housing need between meeting our home and could do with a bit more money in their target of building 300,000 homes, tackling affordability pockets? challenges in the places people most want to live and renewing and levelling up our towns and cities. Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that important point. It is the job of Her Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): We have heard a Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to raise the right amount lot from the Prime Minister about Captain Hindsight, of tax—neither too much nor too little—and therefore but whether it is the economic response and the risk of it has a duty to help people to claim any reliefs that are a cliff edge, testing or the crisis in schools, the Opposition available to them. The lack of people claiming pensioner have actually shown a degree of foresight and provided credits was raised with me the week before last, and the good advice to Government. Will the Government now hon. Gentleman’s point about people claiming their engage constructively with advice to solve problems, or entitlements to tax relief is also important and deserves do we have to resort during our debates and exchanges wider publicity. to calling the Prime Minister General Chaos and the Health Secretary Major Blunder? Mr Speaker: In order to allow for the safe exit of Members participating in this item of business and the Mr Rees-Mogg: That was very funny; we do all split safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am our sides with laughter. It is worth pointing out the suspending the House for a few minutes. amazing amount that Her Majesty’s Government have done—seven Nightingale hospitals built, the number of ventilators up to 30,000 from 9,000 in March, 32 billion 11.59 am pieces of PPE provided, 500,000 virus tests on 15 November, Sitting suspended. 487 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Integrated Review 488

Integrated Review sharing the burden and bringing our expertise to bear on the world’s toughest problems. To achieve this, we 12.3 pm need to upgrade our capabilities across the board. We have already united our international effort into a new The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson) [V]: With permission, Department combining aid and diplomacy, led with Mr Speaker, I will update the House on the Government’s grip and purpose by my right hon. Friend the Foreign, integrated review of foreign, defence, security and Commonwealth and Development Secretary. Next year development policy. will be a year of British leadership when we preside over Our review will conclude early next year and set out the G7, host COP26 in Glasgow, and celebrate the the UK’s international agenda, but I want to inform the 75th anniversary of the first United Nations General House of its first outcome. For decades, British Assembly in London. We are leading the world towards Governments have trimmed and cheese-pared our defence net zero with our 10-point plan for a green industrial budget. If we go on like this, we risk waking up to revolution. Weare campaigning for our values, particularly discover that our armed forces—the pride of Britain—have freedom of religion and the media, and giving every girl fallen below the minimum threshold of viability, and, in the world access to 12 years of quality education. once lost, they can never be regained. That outcome would not only be craven; it would jeopardise the security But extending British influence requires a once-in-a- of the British people, amounting to a dereliction of generation modernisation of our armed forces, and duty for any Prime Minister. now is the right time to press ahead, because emerging I refuse to vindicate any pessimistic forecasters there technologies, visible on the horizon, will make the returns may have been by taking up the scalpel yet again. Based from defence investment infinitely greater. We have a on our assessment of the international situation and chance to break free from the vicious circle whereby we our foreign policy goals, I have decided that the era of ordered ever decreasing numbers of ever more expensive cutting our defence budget must end, and it ends now. I items of military hardware, squandering billions along am increasing defence spending by £24.1 billion over the way. The latest advances will multiply the fighting the next four years. That is £16.5 billion more than our power of every warship, aircraft and infantry unit many manifesto commitment, raising it as a share of GDP to times over, and the prizes will go to the swiftest and at least 2.2%, exceeding our NATO pledge, and investing most agile nations, not necessarily the biggest. We can £190 billion over the next four years—more than any achieve as much as British ingenuity and expertise other European country and more than any other NATO allow. ally except the United States. We will need to act speedily to remove or reduce less The Ministry of Defence has received a multi-year relevant capabilities. This will allow our new investment settlement because equipping our armed forces requires to be focused on the technologies that will revolutionise long-term investment, and our national security in 20 years’ warfare, forging our military assets into a single network time will depend on decisions we take today. I have done designed to overcome the enemy. A soldier in hostile this in the teeth of the pandemic, amid every other territory will be alerted to a distant ambush by sensors demand on our resources, because the defence of the on satellites or drones, instantly transmitting a warning, realm and the safety of the British people must come using artificial intelligence to devise the optimal response first. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friends the Chancellor and offering an array of options, from summoning an and the Defence Secretary, who believe in this as fervently airstrike to ordering a swarm attack by drones, or as I do. Reviving our armed forces is one pillar of the paralysing the enemy with cyber-weapons. New advances Government’s ambition to safeguard Britain’s interests will surmount the old limits of logistics. Our warships and values by strengthening our global influence and and combat vehicles will carry “directed energy weapons”, reinforcing our ability to join the United States and our destroying targets with inexhaustible lasers. For them, other allies to defend free and open societies. the phrase “out of ammunition” will become redundant. The international situation is now more perilous and intensely competitive than at any time since the cold Nations are racing to master this new doctrine of war. Everything we do in this country—every job, every warfare, and our investment is designed to place Britain business, even how we shop and what we eat—depends among the winners. The returns will go far beyond our on a basic minimum of global security, with a web of armed forces, and from aerospace to autonomous vehicles, feed pipes, of oxygen pipes, that must be kept open: these technologies have a vast array of civilian applications, shipping lanes, a functioning internet, safe air corridors, opening up new vistas of economic progress, creating reliable undersea cables, and tranquillity in distant straits. 10,000 jobs every year—40,000 in total—levelling up This pandemic has offered a taste of what happens across our country, and reinforcing our Union. We are when our most fundamental needs are suddenly in going to use our extra defence spending to restore question. We could take all this for granted, ignore the Britain’s position as the foremost naval power in Europe, threat of terrorism and the ambitions of hostile states, taking forward our plans for eight Type 26 and five hope for the best, and we might get away with it for a Type 31 frigates, and support ships to supply our carriers. while, before calamity strikes, as it surely would. Or we Weare going to develop the next generation of warships, could accept that our lifelines must be protected but we including multi-role research vessels and Type 32 frigates. are content to curl up in our island and leave the task to This will spur a renaissance of British shipbuilding our friends. across the UK, in Glasgow and Rosyth, Belfast, Appledore My starting point is that either of those options and Birkenhead, guaranteeing jobs and illuminating the would be an abdication of the first duty of Government: benefits of the Union in the white light of the arc to defend our people. My choice—and I hope it will welder’s torch. If there is one policy that strengthens the carry every Member of the House—is that Britain must UK in every possible sense, it is building more ships for be true to our history and stand alongside our allies, the Royal Navy.Once both of our carriers are operational 489 Integrated Review 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Integrated Review 490 in 2023, the UK will have a carrier strike group permanently question of money. How will this announcement be available, routinely deployed globally, and always ready paid for? Such is the Government’s handling of the to fight alongside NATO and other allies. pandemic that the UK has had the sharpest economic Next year, Queen Elizabeth will lead a British and downturn of any G7 country. Next week, the Chancellor allied task group on our most ambitious deployment will have to come here and set out the consequences of for two decades, encompassing the Mediterranean, the that. Can the Prime Minister tell us today: will the Indian ocean, and East Asia. We shall deploy more of commitments that he has made require additional our naval assets in the world’s most important regions, borrowing and tax rises—if so, which ones?—or will the protecting the shipping lanes that supply our nation, money have to come from other departmental budgets? and we shall press on with renewing our nuclear deterrent. In particular, at the election last year, there was a very We will reshape our Army for the age of networked clear Conservative party manifesto commitment warfare, allowing better equipped soldiers to deploy “to spend 0.7 per cent of GNI” more quickly, and strengthening the ability of our special on international development. A straight question, Prime forces to operate covertly against our most sophisticated Minister: are the Government going to keep to that adversaries. manifesto commitment? He must know that if he breaks The security and intelligence agencies will continue it, that will not only undermine public trust, but hugely to protect us around the clock from terrorism and new weaken us on the global stage. and evolving threats. We will invest another £1.5 billion in military research and development, designed to master The Prime Minister spoke of an “era of retreat”—a the new technologies of warfare. We will establish a new really interesting phrase, after a decade of Conservative centre dedicated to artificial intelligence, and a new government and under-investment in our armed forces. RAF space command, launching British satellites and I remind the House that defence spending has fallen by our first rocket from Scotland in 2022. I can announce more than £8 billion in real terms over the past 10 years. that we have established a National Cyber Force,combining Over the same period, UK regular forces have decreased our intelligence agencies and service personnel, which is by a quarter, and on top of that, the National Audit already operating in cyberspace against terrorism, organised Office estimates that there is a black hole of up to crime and hostile state activity. And the RAF will receive £13 billion in the MOD equipment plan. The additional a new fighter system, harnessing artificial intelligence funding announced today is on foundations that have and drone technology to defeat any adversary in air-to-air been seriously weakened over the past 10 years. combat. Let me come to a point that is very important to our Our plans will safeguard hundreds of thousands of armed forces personnel. Can the Prime Minister tell us jobs in the defence industry, protecting livelihoods across whether there will be any further cuts to the size of our the UK and keeping the British people safe. The defence armed forces over the period of this spending review? of the realm is above party politics, and we all take There are a number of other holes in the Prime pride in how British resolve saved democracy in 1940, Minister’s plan. With less than six weeks to go until the and in how British internationalism, directed by Clement end of the transition period, there is still no clarity Attlee, helped to create NATO and preserve peace about the direction of our post-Brexit foreign or trade through the cold war. The wisdom and pragmatism of policy. The Government have not yet rolled over existing Margaret Thatcher found a path out of confrontation trade agreements with 15 countries—deals worth up to when she met Mikhail Gorbachev in 1984. In each case, £80 billion of trade a year. The Prime Minister speaks Britain tipped the scales of history and did immense of tackling global security threats and improving cyber good for the world. Now we have a chance to follow in capability—that is all welcome, and we welcome it—but this great tradition, end the era of retreat, transform four months after the Intelligence and Security Committee our armed forces, bolster our global influence, unite published its report concluding that Russia posed, in its and level up across our country, protect our people and words, defend the free societies in which we fervently believe. I “an immediate and urgent threat to our national security”, commend this statement to the House. can the Prime Minister tell us why he has still not acted 12.14 pm on that or followed through on the Committee’s recommendations? When will he do so? Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I There was very little beyond warm words about how thank the Prime Minister for advance sight of his the UK will lead the global efforts against the biggest statement. threat we face: the international climate emergency. The Under my leadership, national security will always be COP26 conference is a once-in-a-generation opportunity, Labour’s top priority. Britain must once again show but the Committee on Climate Change says that the global leadership and be a moral force for good in the UK’s domestic measures world, both in how we tackle present and emerging security threats, and in how we build a fairer, greener “are not making adequate progress in preparing for climate change.” and more secure world. So we welcome this additional funding for our defence and security forces, and we Yesterday’sannouncement—another press release without agree that it is vital to end what the Prime Minister a strategy—will do nothing to address that. calls—with, I have to say, a complete lack of self- This is a time of huge global uncertainty. It is time for awareness—an “era of retreat”. Britain to emerge from a decade of decline. I know that This is, however, a spending announcement without a the Prime Minister is always keen to talk about the bits strategy. The Government have yet again pushed back of government that he enjoys—big announcements, vital parts of the integrated review, but there is no space programmes, moonshots—but this statement shows clarity over their strategic priorities. Then there is the that the Government still lack a clear strategy, a coherent 491 Integrated Review 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Integrated Review 492

[Keir Starmer] Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that, as we take on the presidency of the G7, we will work vision for Britain in the world or any idea of how the closely with the new US Administration in boosting promises that the Prime Minister makes will actually be western resolve to confront a growing number of hostile delivered. competitors, including China, who have for too long been allowed to pursue their own destabilising and The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): Of all the humbug competing agendas? that I have heard from the right hon. and learned Gentleman, that really takes the cake. This is a man The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend; he who campaigned until December last year to install in is completely right. This package will encourage and government a Prime Minister who wanted to scrap our bolster our friends and alliances around the world and armed services and pull out of NATO, and his own record enable the UK to project global influence into the of support for our armed services is very thin indeed. future. That is why it is a multi-year package. I do not I am glad that the right hon. and learned Gentleman think that anybody around the world will doubt, after now welcomes this package, although his comments this announcement, our commitment to NATO, to the scarcely do it justice. This is the biggest package of transatlantic alliance and to the security of our friends support for our armed services since the end of the cold and allies around the world. war. It bears absolutely no relation to discussions about overseas aid. This House and this country should be Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I incredibly proud of what Britain does to support people call the leader of the Scottish National party. around the world. Under any view, this country is, has been and will remain one of the biggest contributors to Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): I aid of any country on earth. I am proud of that, and I thank the Prime Minister for advance sight of his am proud that this package will help to deliver 40,000 jobs statement. around the UK. In the SNP,we support a refocusing on the contemporary The Conservative party fundamentally believes in threats that we face. We need to readjust our defence defence of the realm, supporting our armed forces and capabilities for the modern world and it is especially ensuring that the country as a whole is strong and able important that a focus is given to issues such as cyber- to project our strength around the world. It is notable security, but what we do not accept are the priorities of that, in government, we have instituted such extra this Government and the threat of the disbanding of protections for the armed services as wraparound childcare historic regiments such as the Black Watch. Disbanding for armed services families and, by the way, protection the Black Watch would show that the promises made to for our veterans and their families from the misery of Scotland during the Scottish independence campaign continual vexatious prosecution by well-paid lawyers have been broken, buried and forgotten by this Government. long after the alleged crimes were committed and with Wewere promised 12,500 personnel stationed permanently no new evidence provided. The Opposition, under the in Scotland; the number remains well below 10,000. Such leadership of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, broken promises not only mean fewer jobs in Scotland, refused to vote in favour of the Overseas Operations but undermine Scotland’s security interests. Billions of (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill, which will give pounds of taxpayers’ money are still being spent on veterans that protection and reassurance. Trident nuclear weapons.Scotland remains overwhelmingly opposed to weapons of mass destruction on the Clyde. I do not think I have heard so much phoney stuff We need to respond to today’s challenges rather than on from the right hon. and learned Gentleman in all the vanity projects. time that we have faced each other. This is a guy who campaigned actively to install in government somebody The SNP also has serious reservations regarding such who wanted to break up our armed forces and pull out a windfall to defence spending during these unprecedented of NATO. I do not know what he was thinking. He times of hardship for so many.This review will reportedly never mentioned his support for the armed services see the UK as Europe’s biggest defence spender, when then, and frankly I do not attach much credence to just three weeks ago this Government refused to provide it now. free school meals for children during the holidays. We have learned that the UK Government are considering Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I cutting the overseas aid budget by billions of pounds. call the Chair of the Defence Committee. The Prime Minister may use the term “global Britain”, but on these Benches we believe the Prime Minister has Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I his priorities all wrong. The Tories have closed the welcome the commitment to significantly upgrade our Department for International Development, one of the defence posture, for which the Prime Minister knows I, most successful Departments of Government, in order the Defence Committee and others in this House have to politicise instead of focusing it on sustainable been calling for some time. I also welcome his honesty development goals. in recognising that the UK, and indeed the west, has In our submission to the integrated defence review, become too risk-averse in standing up to some of the we have put forward sensible suggestions on how to threats we face. I recall my frustration as a Foreign meet the modern-day threat picture, but not to the Office and Defence Minister in wanting Britain to play detriment of our historic regiments in Scotland. I ask a more assertive and proactive role on the international the Prime Minister today: will he rule out scrapping the stage, not only with our hard and soft power but Black Watch—[Interruption]—and cuts to international with our thought leadership. However, there was ever aid spending? [Interruption.] It is an absolute disgrace, less appetite to do so, so I very much welcome this in the face of the threats, that we get contempt yet again statement today. from the Defence Secretary and his colleagues on the 493 Integrated Review 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Integrated Review 494

Tory Benches. It is shameful, and he really ought to The Prime Minister: We will make sure that we have grow up and show some respect to the regiments of all the co-operation. I thank the right hon. Gentleman Scotland. for his point, which is a very important one, and I agree With independence, Scotland can have a foreign policy with him on what he says about GCHQ and that reflects our values and interests and a defence Cheltenham. I am assured that we will be able to capability that matches capabilities to threats. With our maintain all the co-operation and collaboration we submission to this review, we are looking to play a need to protect our people and our citizens, not just constructive role in informing UK policy, but we will be with our European friends and partners, but with Five setting out how Scotland can play a full role as a Eyes and other allies and friends around the world. normal, law-abiding and values-driven independent country on the world stage. Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): My right hon. Friend has delivered for our armed forces The Prime Minister: I can certainly give the right hon. today and he deserves the support of the whole House, Gentleman that guarantee. Once again, he seems to be a particularly as he seeks to improve the procurement veritable geyser of confected indignation. Of course we mechanisms of the Ministry of Defence. Will he bear in are going to guarantee the Black Watch. DFID will mind the wise words of General Mattis, the former US remain in East Kilbride, as long as he does not Defence Secretary, who told Donald Trump that the continue with his ambitions to break up the United more you cut aid, the more I have to spend on Kingdom; and even if he does, DFID will remain in ammunition? Britain’s development leadership— East Kilbride. standing by our promise to the poorest by keeping the It is preposterous to listen to the Scottish National 0.7%, which was a manifesto commitment—will stand party talking about its desire to support defence spending my right hon. Friend in very good stead as he assumes when everybody knows fine well that it is thanks to the chairmanship of the G7 on 1 January and UK-wide investments that we are able to deliver not just promotes the important values of global Britain. the Black Watch and DFID in East Kilbride, but a fantastic programme of shipbuilding in Govan and The Prime Minister: I am grateful for my right hon. Rosyth. Under his plans, it is not just that there will be Friend’s points. He has done extraordinary work to no deterrent; there will be no shipbuilding and there champion the poorest and neediest around the world. will be no Black Watch in the land of the SNP. That is This country, as I say, can be very proud of our record the reality. on overseas aid. We will continue to lead the world on that under this Government. What I can say is that this Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): May I say to statement is about our defence and security, and there my right hon. Friend that this statement smacks not is no read-across to any other issue. This is driven by only of promises kept, but of promises exceeded? I our need to protect the British public and keep the congratulate him on that. Does he accept that in an era world as safe as we possibly can, and to unite and level when global cyber-attacks threaten our entire way of up across our Union with 40,000 more jobs. life—from the economy to the NHS—we need to spend more of our defence budget on assets that we cannot see Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Prime as well as on updating our core assets, and that that Minister for his commitment to the whole of the United needs to be clearly explained to the British people? In Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Will this war of the invisible enemy, does he believe that he confirm that while the goal is speed, readiness and cyber doctrine has evolved to match our capabilities, resilience, as opposed to mass mobilisation, for the British especially on existential threats, in order to provide armed forces to remain the best in the world the training adequate deterrence? of personnel must be a top priority to ensure that while we are ready for technological warfare, we also remain The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is an ready for physical forms of war? How will the review of expert on what he is talking about. I can tell him that recruitment procedures secure that very goal? the National Cyber Force is working on doctrine that is currently evolving, but we will deploy our cyber The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a capabilities, as I am sure he and the House would very important point. The defence review will ensure expect, in accordance with international law to protect that we remain full spectrum capable. I think that is the the British public and our citizens. phrase the House should use: full spectrum capable. Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD) [V]: We all Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con) owe an enormous debt to the brave men and women of [V]: I strongly welcome and support my right hon. our armed forces and security services for their work in Friend’s statement. We live in difficult times, but, as he keeping our country safe. We will give the review the states, the defence of the realm must always remain a study it merits, but I immediately welcome the extra top priority.The announcement will be warmly welcomed investment in cyber-security so that Cheltenham’s by so many British businesses who rely heavily on our GCHQ and the amazing people who work there can defence industry. Will my right hon. Friend confirm continue to ensure the UK remains a world leader in that this will safeguard jobs, helping us to build back this crucial aspect of modern defence. With data and and level up opportunity across our nation? cyber so important to modern defence, the Prime Minister will know that access for our security services The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is completely and police to European crime databases is vital to right. We will use this defence package and spending keeping the British people safe. Can the Prime Minister review not just to modernise and update our armed guarantee that we will retain direct, real-time access to forces in a truly revolutionary way but to drive jobs across all European databases after 1 January? the whole of the UK. It is a very exciting prospect. 495 Integrated Review 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Integrated Review 496

John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): If this boost for defence around the world. I have often found, when travelling spending is the first fruits of the departure of Dominic around the world to countries in real distress, that the Cummings, it is most welcome, especially in ensuring single export they crave the most is the help, reassurance that we can continue to work effectively alongside our and security that comes from the British armed services. long-term allies and partners including the United States— That is one of the reasons why helping to keep our even more so with the welcome arrival of President world safe is a huge part of this agenda. Biden. Will the Prime Minister ensure that, wherever possible, spending is directed to firms in the UK and Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): Our armed that orders are pulled forward to get British industry forces have played a crucial role in our response to the moving? He can start with the fleet solid support ships pandemic, not least in setting up and scaling the mega by telling the Ministry of Defence to send out the lab in Milton Keynes. Looking beyond Milton Keynes invitations to bid not in some ill-defined spring as the to the world, does the Prime Minister agree that this MOD says, but early in 2021. That would be a welcome investment sends a huge message to our friends and Christmas present and new year message not only for allies around the world that Britain is serious about our shipyards but for our engineering and steel industries security, and to those who would do us harm and and their communities. threaten the security of our people and our nation that Britain is serious about defending our people,our businesses, The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman speaks our economy and our values? for many in what he says about the fleet solid support ships—he certainly speaks for me. This is a great moment The Prime Minister: That is exactly the purpose of for shipbuilding in this country. Be in no doubt of the this announcement. It is a long-term plan that allows us ambition of my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary, to reform our defences. They must be reformed and the shipbuilding tsar who is now leading a renaissance they must be improved, while allowing us to project in shipbuilding. I am sure he heard the right hon. force and stability around the world. That is what it is Gentleman’s points loud and clear. designed to do. It simultaneously creates tens of thousands of jobs across the whole of the United Kingdom. So it Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): I welcome has a big economic benefit as well. in the strongest possible terms the incredible announcement from the Prime Minister. Before joining this place, I Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]: I welcome worked for a County Durham start-up in research and the commitment to additional future funding, but we development and saw at first hand the incredible value should not forget that British boots are on the ground that R&D brings to society, particularly when tech is in Afghanistan today. A consequence of President developed that can be applied to other uses. I have no Trump’s threat to reduce troop numbers would be that doubt that investing in military R&D will lead to the UK needed to play a greater role in building peace, advancements for civilian applications in areas such as security and resilience. So does the UK stand ready to aviation and autonomous vehicles. Indeed, the technology meet that challenge and ensure that the people of that allows us to see the Prime Minister beamed on to Afghanistan are afforded the opportunity of a more our screens today first came from a military communication peaceful and prosperous future? innovation. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that this package of funding will be underpinned by a strong The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman and commitment to military research and development? I recognise and admire the service that he has given to this country in our armed forces. He is completely right The Prime Minister: I can indeed. There is big, big to point to the issue of a proposed potential American chunk of this package specifically dedicated to research draw-down in those areas. We are watching it very and development in cyber, AI and drone warfare—all closely, and we will be working with our American the warfare of the future. The victors of the future will friends in the new Administration to do whatever we be those who are able to master data and new technology can to protect the stability and security of those troubled in the way that this package supports. countries.

Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab) [V]: I really welcome Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind) [V]: Thankfully, this commitment to our armed forces. The Prime Minister the Prime Minister is fulfilling his leadership election spoke in his statement about defending our people and promise on defence spending. Given that the National keeping the world safe, which I would argue are Cyber Force formally announced today involves offensive development objectives, thinking specifically about climate cyber operations, I welcome the fact that the ISC will change, food security, creating stable Governments and provide oversight of this joint MOD-GCHQ venture. Is investing to end violence against women and girls. How my right hon. Friend fully satisfied that the ISC is now will he ensure that development remains front and properly constituted to conduct this scrutiny impartially centre of the UK’s new international policy following and independently? the integrated review? Will he please quash rumours and confirm his manifesto commitment to the 0.7% both The Prime Minister: Yes. I believe that the Intelligence now and going forwards? and Security Committee is well equipped to provide exactly that further layer of scrutiny of cyber operations. The Prime Minister: As I have said several times to the House, we can all be proud of our record on Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP) [V]: The Prime overseas aid, and that will continue, but it is also by Minister has outlined his ambition for a space control investing in our armed services that we can do some of to secure space launch capability from the UK, but the greatest things for the poorest and neediest people concerns have been raised by some in the UK-based 497 Integrated Review 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Integrated Review 498 space industry about the recently published US- there with the TV screen here. What I can say is that I UK technology safeguards agreement, which has not will keep very closely in mind the hon. Gentleman’s yet been scrutinised by this place. What guarantee can invitation to come to Inverness for a Cabinet meeting the Prime Minister give the UK-based industry that it next year. We will study that with interest. will be central to any space programme, and will he meet me to discuss this in more detail? Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]: It was a great pleasure in the previous business to praise the The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises an Prime Minister for his leadership in delivering Brexit. It important and interesting issue. I will do my best to is also great to be able to praise the Prime Minister’s ensure that his concerns are addressed and that the leadership in delivering this multi-year settlement for House is able to look at all the technology safeguard our wonderful men and women of our armed forces. measures that we are putting in place. That is obviously Would he like to thank all those officials and civil right. servants in the Ministry of Defence and all the armed forces who have worked many hours to help deliver this Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): First, multi-year settlement? In particular, would he like to may I hugely welcome this announcement? It is a fantastic thank the Secretary of State for Defence whose robust statement of resolve for the UK at home and abroad. It work on this has helped to ensure that we have come to does more than guarantee the future of the Black this point and delivered for our armed forces? Watch. It invests in businesses from Arbroath all the way to Abergavenny. It is a fantastic statement of the The Prime Minister: It is always a pleasure to thank defence capability of our nation—of a whole United my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence Kingdom. It also raises questions. This spending package whom I have known for many, many years and is a good is enormously important because it allows the planners friend of mine. He is supported, as my hon. Friend to think about the future confident in the money that rightly said, by thousands of brilliant officials, to say they will have to spend. Will my right hon. Friend nothing of the members of our wonderful armed services commit to bringing forward as soon as possible the who have helped to make this package what it is. I integrated review so that we have a strategic approach believe that it will deliver for our people and deliver for to that spending? This time, we cannot outspend the our country for years and years to come. communists; we have to out-think them. LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is spot on. What In the mid-‘90s, the UK was one of the largest contributors this package does is set out much of the basic structure to UN peacekeeping missions in terms of troops and of the integrated review. We can start to see the tools personnel. Now we have only 600 personnel worldwide that we will be using, but we will shortly be completing whom we contribute. Will this budget turn that around the review. He is absolutely right in his fundamental and take us back to our proud tradition of peacekeeping point that this is about having smarter forces to outwit troops, and will the Prime Minister commit to ensuring our foes. Every time the UK has been asked to do that, that the 0.7% is not devalued at all in this wider review? we have always historically risen to that challenge. This The Prime Minister: One reason why I am so excited will give us the tools to do it. about going up to 2.2% of our spending on defence, as the hon. Gentleman points out, is that it will allow us to Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) do more on peacekeeping. By the way, he is right to (LD) [V]: As a Scottish MP, I have no doubt as to the draw attention to the fact that the UK could do more vital role that Scotland plays in the defence of the on peacekeeping. I am proud of what we are doing, for realm. When we think about the recruitment of personnel, instance, in Mali, but this programme, this investment, as the Prime Minister mentioned, establishments such gives us the scope to do even more. as Rosyth and RAF Lossiemouth are great examples. On 7 September 1921, the Cabinet met outside London Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con) [V]: This is a for the very first time in history. This was to consider hugely important announcement, which, as a member the Irish crisis and it met in the Town House in Inverness. of the Armed Forces Parliamentary Trust, I know will May I suggest that the UK Cabinet meet again in the be much welcomed by our armed forces. Will my right Inverness Town House on 7 September next year? This hon. Friend confirm that it will in fact strengthen our would be to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the 1921 global influence and secure jobs across a range of meeting and to enable the Prime Minister and the supply chain industries, some of which are located Cabinet to review the defence of the UK by visiting across the Dudley borough and the Black Country? places such as RAF Lossiemouth, and perhaps also to learn about the great role that our armed forces played, The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. This will be big for and play right now, in beating the covid pandemic? the Black Country. The west midlands, once again, is at the cutting edge of technological change and the new The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an industrial revolution. The technologies that we will incredibly important point about the role of our armed need and that are foreseen in this spending package will services in beating the covid pandemic, which I should certainly drive jobs in the west midlands and around the have made earlier on myself. I was up in Scotland—actually whole UK. in Lossiemouth—talking to members of our armed services who are doing the testing and helping to fly Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab): Britain is the patients from remote islands to hospitals. It was wonderful penholder for Yemen at the UN Security Council, with to see the way that the UK armed services have helped the responsibility to support the peace process and a during this pandemic, Mr Speaker/Madam Deputy real opportunity to show global Britain at its best, but Speaker—I am sorry but I can hardly see you down will the Prime Minister tell us why his Government have 499 Integrated Review 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Integrated Review 500

[Navendu Mishra] Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Co-op): There is much to welcome about the investment resumed indefensible arms sales to Saudi Arabia, which in our armed forces in this statement. The Prime Minister has credibly been accused of human rights violations will be aware that in the last month, we have seen that may amount to war crimes? atrocities against civilians in Nigeria, jihadis on the rise in the Sahel and Mozambique, attacks on democracy in The Prime Minister: Under the consolidated guidance, Uganda and Tanzania and now a spiralling conflict in we have some of the strictest rules about exports of Ethiopia, with huge refugee flows, attacks on civilians weapons to any country in the world. Everything is and the destabilising of the region. On that specific closely overseen and scrutinised by our lawyers, and, issue, will the Prime Minister say what he is doing now indeed, judicially reviewed. I am content that we are to seek an urgent de-escalation in Ethiopia and doing everything in accordance with the law and in humanitarian access? More widely, given his statement accordance with humanitarian law. today, what role does he see for us as a partner for peace, development and security in Africa, not least Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I given the crucial role that the 0.7% commitment has very much welcome this increased commitment to invest played, as the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield in our armed forces, though to pay for it by reducing the (Mr Mitchell) set out so clearly? commitment to global peace, which our overseas aid budget represents, would be a mistake. How is the The Prime Minister: We have made representations to Prime Minister going to ensure that jobs are created the Government in Addis Ababa to de-escalate in Ethiopia. across the country through this investment? Innovative, We continue to make our points with them. This package high-tech businesses in Newcastle tell me that it is easier will help us to step up our commitment to Africa and, to secure a contract with the American Department of as the hon. Gentleman may recall, when I was Foreign Defence than with the British Ministry of Defence, so Secretary and now under my right hon. Friend the what is he doing to improve procurement opportunities Foreign Secretary, we are opening up embassies, opening for small businesses? up UK representation across Africa, and this package will help us to support that. The Prime Minister: I am interested that the hon. Member says that, because, as I recall, one cannot even Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (Con): sell rulers or paperclips to the US military under the I thank both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor for Pentagon’s procurement policies; but I may be in error. finding a way to provide this long-term financial stability The hon. Member makes an important point about the for defence, despite the huge financial pressures that need to source as much as we can from the UK. That is covid has brought upon us this year. Getting our defence obviously what we are going to do. It is a big opportunity funding on a sound footing affords us the chance to to buy British, to stimulate jobs and technology, and to ensure that it can be genuinely resilient, so does the drive jobs across the UK, and I have no doubt that Prime Minister agree that ensuring that we get going at Newcastle and the north-east will be big beneficiaries. pace on the shipbuilding commitments he has set out is critical not only for the next generation of Royal Navy Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con) ships to be in service as soon as possible, but because [V]: May I say to the Prime Minister that this is the best the UK, in building ships and boats across the four and most intelligent defence statement that I have heard nations of the Union that they defend, can lead the in a quarter of a century in the House of Commons? world in adapting to green maritime technologies? Will he assuage, however, two concerns that I have? The first is that it appears that the numerical size of the The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is completely armed forces is still on a downward trend. The evidence right because not only are we massively expanding of recent wars—most recently in Nagorno-Karabakh—is shipbuilding with the two frigate production lines that I that the route to success is through both novel technology have described, the five Type 31s at Rosyth and the six and conventional forces. How are we going to cope Type 26s in Govan, and we are also committed to the with that? Secondly, since the era of the Duke of Type 32, but we want to be in the lead globally—as she Wellington, the MOD has not been very good at managing and I have discussed, and I thank her for all the work big, expensive projects. What are we going to do about she has done to champion shipbuilding and the Royal that? Navy—in clean, green marine technologies so that our ships are also emitting less carbon. That is perfectly feasible. The Prime Minister: First of all, it is important to understand that there are no redundancies in this package. Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) [V]: The Prime Minister My right hon. Friend is right about the need to maintain has announced an additional increase of just over £4 billion full spectrum, and that is what this does. We also have a year in the defence budget. Meanwhile, the Ministry to fight the wars of the future—to adapt and change. of Defence admits that it already has a £6 billion budget That is what this package allows us to do; it permits us shortfall in its equipment plan. That shortfall could rise to modernise. My right hon. Friend’s final point is a to as much as £13 billion over the lifetime of the plan, very important one. We are going to be following this so will the Prime Minister tell us what he thinks the with a very beady eye. There have been historic over- MOD’s equipment budget shortfall will be at the end of spends and historic mistakes in procurement—some the four-year period covered by his statement today? painful episodes that we do not need to go into, in which investments have not turned out well. We are The Prime Minister: As I say, this is the biggest setting up a unit to ensure that we get value out of this increase in defence spending since the cold war. It gives massive package. us a long-term ability to reform, but it also delivers 501 Integrated Review 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Integrated Review 502 more ships, cyber, artificial intelligence, drone technology the European Union—procurement rules, but we will and the future combat air system, which will be absolutely make sure that we procure all this in the UK in so far as vital to this country—all of it creating 40,000 jobs we possibly can and use it to drive jobs and growth, and across the UK, so this is a big step forward for our that means spending it wisely. whole country. Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): With the Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): I warmly Conservatives having been in power for over a decade, it welcome this statement from the Prime Minister and his is ironic that the Prime Minister has just referred to continuing commitment to strengthening our defence coming out of an era of retreat and decline, since he has capabilities. I am sure he will agree that is vital that helped to facilitate huge cuts to spending on defence other NATO members also fulfil their obligations with and our brave armed forces. The Government rightly regard to spending 2% of their GDP on defence by sanctioned Russia for its annexation of Crimea and the 2024. What steps are the Government taking to ensure appalling chemical weapons attack in Salisbury, so why that other members of the alliance fulfil their obligations has the Prime Minister failed to address the deep systemic to increase their defence spending? failings in dealing with threats to our national security identified by the Russia report? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is completely right, and we never tire of telling other NATO colleagues that they need to increase their defence spending for the The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman good of the whole alliance. We will continue to make is pretty indistinct from here because of the size of the that case, but we are doing the most powerful thing—that screen, but I think that that was a question from the is, setting a fantastic example ourselves with 2.2%. This Labour Benches. It seems extraordinary that complaints is something that will not only help to drive jobs and about not being tough enough on Russia are being prosperity in the UK and protect the people of the UK, directed at the Government from Labour, which was led but help to make the world safer. until only a year ago by somebody who regularly appeared on Russian TV and took Russia’s side in the Salisbury Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab): In June this poisonings. We remain absolutely determined to protect year, the Prime Minister abolished the Department for this country from threats from all quarters, particularly International Development, telling me and the House from those who wish us ill. That is why we are investing that there had been in cyber and our security in the way we are today. “massive consultation over a long period”—[Official Report, 16 June 2020; Vol. 677, c. 678]— Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con) [V]: This is a with aid organisations prior to making the decision. fantastic announcement. The Prime Minister will remember Since then, around 200 aid organisations and his own that in the leadership campaign last year, I said that we Secretary of State have contradicted that. Can the should move towards spending 3% of our GDP on Prime Minister provide evidence that this consultation defence, so we think exactly the same on this. May I took place prior to making the decision, or will he urge him not to listen to any voices in his ear that say finally apologise for misleading the House? the way to fund this is a temporary cut in the 0.7% aid commitment? We spent a decade winning the argument The Prime Minister: We are in daily contact and for that, and even a temporary cut will create an enormous communication with the aid organisations that have clamour of people who say that we should not go back benefited from the many billions of pounds that the to it. In a year when 100 million more people have gone UK contributes to international development—more into extreme poverty, I know that he would not want to than virtually any other country. We will continue to do send the wrong signal out to the world about our values that, and we will continue to work with those organisations as a country. on the ground. The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend and I think Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I alike on so many of these issues, and we think alike on am sure the hon. Lady meant “inadvertently” misleading this, too. This country can be immensely proud, and he the House. can be immensely proud of the leadership he showed as Mary Kelly Foy indicated assent. Foreign Secretary on aid and development and in championing the needs of the underprivileged around Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) [V]: I welcome this the world. The UK, under any view, continues to do statement and the increased investment. The Prime that. Look at what we just did with the GAVI summit Minister has rightly set out the importance of spending for global vaccines, raising $8 billion or $9 billion to this money wisely and efficiently and buying as much spread vaccines around the world. We lead the world in from British suppliers as we can. Can he bring forward investing in epidemic preparedness and in so many revised public sector procurement rules that apply right other ways. We will continue to do so, and the people of across public spending, so that we can achieve both this country will continue to be world leaders in giving those welcome objectives? aid. I remember my right hon. Friend’s campaign to increase defence funding—I listened to it very carefully. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an interesting I thought he was right at the time, and I am glad that we suggestion. As I said in answer to my right hon. Friend have been able to fulfil his expectations now. the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), we want to make sure that this money is well spent. We Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): When the are going to scrutinise it very carefully.Normally, defence major threat is terrorism, largely homegrown and driven spending is outwith most OJEU—Official Journal of by inequality and prejudice, and with other budgets 503 Integrated Review 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Integrated Review 504

[Kenny MacAskill] The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for that question, because he is right to highlight the importance being cut, inequality rising and prejudice increasing, of soft power. Studies have shown that we are among how will all the king’s soldiers and all the king’s weaponry the biggest wielders of soft power in the world—we are put further victims together again? a soft-power superpower. That soft power has many components, of which the British Council is one, but a The Prime Minister: I could not quite hear that robust, self-confident defence policy that allows us to question, Madam Deputy Speaker,but the hon. Gentleman project strength around the world is also hugely valuable. seemed to be saying that terrorism is somehow caused Hard power leads to soft power. by injustice in this country. I do not believe that to Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): I thank the Prime be true. Minister for his statement. Like many people throughout Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) [V]: I very warmly Newport West, I welcome the election of Joe Biden as welcome this material increase in the defence budget President of the United States and Kamala Harris as and, in particular, the multi-year nature of the settlement. the first woman Vice-President. Will the Prime Minister A significant challenge in defence budgeting is the tell us how he explained, in his first phone call with stop-start nature of political decision making on multi-year President-elect Biden, the actions of his Government’s projects, so this statement will help to modernise the undermining of the Good Friday agreement? equipment plan and get it back on track, which is The Prime Minister: What I said to President-elect welcome. Does the Prime Minister agree that the United Biden was how much I congratulated him and Kamala Kingdom can now fully take into account the UK Harris on their election and how much we look forward prosperity impact of defence procurement, and will he to working together on a number of issues. On Northern do what he can to ensure that state aid issues and the Ireland, I made the point that we both share the strong opportunity cost of making in the UK are fully recognised desire to uphold the Good Friday agreement and the by the Treasury? stability of Northern Ireland and that that was the purpose of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend makes a but more importantly we talked about what we were really important point. This is a big moment for us, going to do not only to advance the cause of free trade, because we can ensure that that these colossal investments international democracy around the world and human do drive jobs and growth in this country, and that is rights, but to tackle climate change. It was a very good what they are going to do. That is why I am so thrilled phone call. about the announcements for shipbuilding in particular, but this is not just about shipbuilding; it means new Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) [V]: In welcoming the jobs in new technology in all kinds of ways across the statement and strongly supporting the central purpose whole country. of the integrated review of defence, diplomacy and development to better defend free societies, I trust that Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP) my right hon. Friend’s Government will continue to [V]: I can only assume that Conservative Members are show global leadership in supporting the rights of all awfully punch drunk on the numbers, because what the people to that most fundamental freedom to be themselves Prime Minister has effectively done is to rip up the and to live their lives as they wish. Does the opportunity integrated review by announcing the spending before of the integrated review enable my right hon. Friend to the review. Surely, the review is supposed to inform the make real the rhetorical commitment to LGBT+ people spending. Let me ask him a specific question about a globally, with the relatively modest sums needed from specific promise. At the last independence referendum, the integrated budgets to deliver British leadership in his party promised 12,500 armed forces personnel programmes that can make a massive difference to the permanently based in Scotland. Will that promise be lives of hundreds of millions of people around the met by the time of the next independence referendum? world, so that they can enjoy the freedom to be themselves that Britons have? I wrote to the Foreign Secretary on The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman asks a very this issue on 4 September and 12 October; does the interesting question about a hypothetical political event review now enable him to say yes to that request? that is at least a generation away. What I can say is that there is absolutely no threat to the Black Watch, to The Prime Minister: Yes, it does. My hon. Friend DFID in East Kilbride or to any of the other fantastic raises a very important point that is close to my heart. I investments that this package brings to Scotland. It is a argue with countries around the world that repress fantastic thing for our country and for our Union. LGBT rights and do not see things the way that we do in this country that they are making not just a profound Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con) [V]: social and moral mistake but an economic mistake. Our This announcement is extremely welcome and one that attitude to those issues and the way we have advanced I know, as an ex-soldier, will be well received by our LGBT rights in this country is of huge value to the lives superb armed forces. My right hon. Friend will know of people in this country—to people’s happiness and that the integrated review offers the opportunity to their willingness to come to live here, invest here and consider Britain’s foreign policy assets in the round, make their lives here. It makes a huge difference. That is including its world-class soft power capabilities. Will the point that I make to friends and partners around the he therefore confirm that when the review is published, world, and we will continue to do so under this review—that it will reflect the recommendations of the recent is certainly part of it. I seem to remember that when I British Council all-party parliamentary group report was Foreign Secretary, one of the first things I did was and include a soft power strategy at its core, with a to make sure that all our embassies around the world central role for Britain’s primary soft power assets, felt able to fly the multicoloured LGBT flag wherever including the British Council? they wanted to. 505 Integrated Review 19 NOVEMBER 2020 506

Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) Sport Sector: Financial Support (Lab) [V]: I am really pleased to hear the Prime Minister recognise the excellent work that the armed forces have been doing throughout this pandemic. I am hoping that 1.19 pm the Prime Minister will make some of those excellent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, armed forces personnel available to Hull and East Riding Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston): For millions to assistance us during the awful time we are facing of people up and down the country, sport is so much right now with our health emergency. more than a pastime. Sports clubs, large and small, enrich lives both on and off the pitches, the courts and The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. The hon. Lady the grounds, and they play a vital role in their communities. makes a really good point and a good request, because The value that sports clubs bring to their communities we are looking at what we can do with our armed has been clearer than ever during this pandemic, and it services to ramp up and roll out the lateral flow mass is right that we support them. testing—the rapid turnaround test that people, I hope, Earlier this year, in May, we announced a £16 million are starting to be aware of. We are looking for places to emergency bail-out for rugby league to prevent the trial that in addition to what we have done in Liverpool, sport’s collapse, and the Treasury’s multi-billion-pound and the armed services will certainly be playing a part support packages, including the furlough and loan schemes, in that. have been a lifeline for countless sports clubs and organisations across the country, helping them to stay Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con) [V]: I afloat when their doors remained closed. Sport England wholeheartedly welcome not only the Prime Minister’s has announced separate emergency funding of £220 million commitment to increasing defence spending but the for grassroots clubs, and we recently announced a investment in new military technology. I have companies £100 million scheme for leisure centres. Together, that in my constituency such as Drone Defence in Retford support has acted as a significant buffer to the pain. who specialise in innovative drone technology. May I invite the Prime Minister to visit Drone Defence and However, we know that the decision taken in late show our commitment that British companies such as September not to re-open the stadiums from 1 October this will be at the forefront of this investment? Does he has had major consequences for sports clubs large and agree that this is not just an investment in our nation’s small. It was the right decision, given the rate at which defence but also in local high-skilled jobs? coronavirus was spreading across the country, but clearly, not being able to generate gate receipts deprives many The Prime Minister: I am absolutely thrilled to hear organisations of a major source of income. The vast about the company my hon. Friend raises, Drone Defence. majority of those sports operate on tight financial I understand that it has also been able to take on some margins and have been forced to make serious cost new young employees through the kickstart scheme, reductions such as locking down grounds, furloughing and that is great. These are exactly the kinds of cutting-edge their staff, cutting wages, and halting excess payment. It companies that we are going to be supporting, but also was clear that if we did not act, a number of clubs many, many other types of industry and business across would go to the wall, with real consequences for the the country. I certainly look forward to coming to see grassroots game. That is why, over the past few weeks, him in Bassetlaw, where I think we have good news on we have been working tirelessly with the sports sector to the hospital as well. understand the real pressures it is facing. We promised to stand by the sports sector when we Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): We made the decision to postpone the return of fans, and will have a three-minute suspension to allow safe exit today I am pleased to announce a £300 million sports and entry of hon. and right hon. Members. winter survival package to see major spectator sports through this difficult period. The majority of that funding 1.16 pm will be given through low-interest loans, with flexible Sitting suspended. repayment terms and grants where organisations are unable to repay loans. The package will focus on those sports that have been severely impacted by the restrictions announced in September, and it is the largest package announced by any Government for its domestic sport sector in the world. I stress that these are provisional allocations of funding. They were made on a needs-based assessment process, and reflect the submissions made by the individual sports. Recipients will still need to apply, and the funding process will be overseen by an independent decision-making board, and supported by Sport England. That funding will include a top-up for rugby league of up to £12 million, as well as cash injections of up to £28 million for national league football and women’s football, up to £135 million for rugby union, and up to £40 million for horseracing. There is also up to £6 million for motorsport, up to £4 million each for netball, basketball, and ice hockey, up to £1 million for greyhound racing, up to £5 million for tennis, and up to £1.6 million for badminton. 507 Sport Sector: Financial Support19 NOVEMBER 2020 Sport Sector: Financial Support 508

[Nigel Huddleston] Next, we need to know that the money the Minister has announced just now will reach sports quickly. The Today’s provisional allocations are not the end of the cultural recovery fund did not reach cultural organisations story. The door is open for any sport to apply where quickly enough, so can we ensure that we have no repeat there is a need. That includes cricket and other sports of that experience? Will he commit to coming back to that are not on the initial list of allocations. Full details the House next month to explain the detail of the effect of the application process will shortly be announced by of this funding? Will it reach disability sport effectively, Sport England, with the first tranche of support expected and will it support women’s and men’s sport absolutely to be distributed to clubs and bodies before the end of equally, by penny piece? What measures will he put in the year. In the meantime, if any individual club is place to ensure that that happens? facing imminent collapse, we will work with it through its national governing body. Based on the information We live in uncertain times, and the once predictable that sports have given us, this package will help them to sporting calendar has been shifted all over the shop, so survive until the spring. will the Minister commit to keeping the situation under Of course, we would all prefer to see fans back in the review? I think I heard him say that he had an open stadiums. Spectator sports need spectators, and with door for anyone who needed help. That is a good thing, the real progress that we are making on vaccines and and I welcome it. In relation to that, he has explained testing, that goal is now firmly within our sight. Until that these funds are in response to the cancellation of then, we have stepped in to protect not just individual the very slow piloted return of spectators that we were clubs and organisations, but entire sports and the expecting from 1 October. We had an extensive debate communities they serve. I commend this statement to on this only last week in Westminster Hall, so can the the House. Minister bring us up to date on that? What is the truth of the rumours that spectators will return, but only in line with the as yet unannounced tier system? There are 1.23 pm also rumours concerning the number of spectators. Is it Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I thank the true that the cap will be 1,000 people? While we are on Minister for sight of his statement, and for the accepting the subject of Members’ concerns, we have another manner in which he has dealt with the pestering from Westminster Hall debate coming up next week on the me and from other Members on this subject. Through governance of football, and I expect to see many Members you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I also thank all the civil there. If the Minister cannot give us full details of the servants at the Treasury and the Department for Digital, fan-led review of football at the Dispatch Box today, I Culture, Media and Sport for their hard work on this suggest that he does so next Wednesday. support package for sport. That work is not unnoticed, and we thank them for it. However, as I mentioned, Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, I know it will not getting to this point has taken cross-party pestering, have escaped your notice that the Government started and meanwhile, sports are hanging by a thread. this crisis accusing premier league footballers of not I know that, for the Treasury, sport in the context of doing their share, and ended the summer U-turning on the UK Government’s spending is almost a rounding child poverty in response to the heroic campaigning of error. It is a comparatively small commitment on the a premier league footballer. That should be a lesson to very, very big Treasury spreadsheet, but that fact is the Government. Sports people have been messed about irrelevant to how important sport is to families in all month after month, and the British people want better. our constituencies. It plays a huge role in the life of our My final question to the Minister is this: in the face country and, given its place in keeping us healthy, we of a deadly virus, nothing matters more than public needed a swifter response than this. That is particularly health, so where is the comprehensive plan for wellbeing the case when we see how sport has been messed about. right across the UK? This funding announcement In August, with eat out to help out and the Prime today is a panicked response to a bad situation made Minister saying that he wanted to see “bustle”, sports worse by Government incompetence, and the country were told that it was full speed ahead towards the deserves better. reopening in October until No. 10 executed a sharp about-turn, and since then the pace has been slow to Nigel Huddleston: I thank the hon. Lady for the glacial. So in order to speed things up, I would like to gracious tone that she adopted—at the beginning of her help the Minister with some questions that will hopefully speech at least—and she has also given me the opportunity prompt action. to express my thanks to the Treasury team, DCMS In two weeks’time, the current lockdown arrangements officials and all those involved, including the sports, the will come to an end, and we hear rumours of a return to governing bodies and the individual clubs who have the tier system. Can the Minister please clearly explain worked tirelessly to get us to this point. That is perhaps what that means for grassroots sport? There are so an indication of why this has taken so long. It has taken many people who rely on swimming, their football several weeks to gather the necessary amount of information team, their rugby game, their running club or their in the forensic detail required, but that was right because round of golf for their mental and physical health, and it is the disbursal of public money that we are talking the lack of sport is doing our country damage. It about. In terms of the total amount, the Treasury estimates cannot go on for much longer, and that is especially true that around £1.5 billion, perhaps more, of public money when it comes to our nation’s children, so will the has gone into sports, because we are talking not just Minister please tell us when children can return to about this fund but about the £200 million from Sport training? Robbie Savage speaks for the nation when he England and all the additional money that has gone counts down the days in frustration to when we can play into the various support schemes such as furlough, sport, and we need answers. grants and reliefs over a period of many months. 509 Sport Sector: Financial Support19 NOVEMBER 2020 Sport Sector: Financial Support 510

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to highlight the the megabucks TV deal that the English game enjoys priority in terms of reopening. It is a shared goal across and is almost three times more reliant than most European the Chamber to open as soon as it is safe to do so. That football on ticket sales as a share of revenue, with gate goes for grassroots and elite sport. As the Secretary of receipts making up nearly half of all revenue. Does the State has said, he wants to ensure that grassroots sport Minister recognise that even if a small number of fans is at the front of the queue when it comes to reopening. can return to stadiums, financial support is still needed I can confirm, as I mentioned in my statement, that for these clubs? we hope for the money to be going out within weeks, If the Government pursue a reopening strategy at and certainly for some of it to be disbursed before any future point allowing the return of fans in low Christmas. There will be an appropriate proportion for infection areas, what provision will be made to devolved women’s sport, and of course the total package will also nations that have different lockdown rules and permissions support women’s sport. The hon. Lady has heard me for fan return? Will the other UK nations be forced to say again and again—I will repeat it today—that with follow in England’s footsteps, or will support for the anybody receiving Government money, I expect an industry from the UK Government respect devolved appropriate level to go to women’s sport. There is decision making? specific money for netball, as well as women’s basketball In September, I asked the Minister to commit to full and women’s football, in the package. engagement with the Scottish Minister for sport, Joe Governance is not necessarily the major topic of FitzPatrick. Will the Minister confirm that he has spoken today, but we will come to it again and again, and it is a to his counterpart in Edinburgh to explain the ramifications priority.I am very happy about the hon. Lady mentioning of this announcement for the Scottish Government’s that she effectively supports the Conservative party finances? The Minister will be aware that the Scottish manifesto, which of course had a commitment to a Government have still not received clarity on the Barnett grassroots review of football. We will continue that, and consequentials from previous announcements. He should I welcome her joining us in that effort. also be aware that the Scottish Government do not have the powers to borrow to finance a similar loan scheme Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con) [V]: This announcement in Scotland—an aberration that the Treasury could and is very welcome. Rugby league, rugby union and the should fix. national league have all expressed to me their concerns To conclude, will the Minister please provide about their survival during the latest lockdown period. clarity to this House and to Scottish Ministers about Will the Minister explain whether the apportioning of what Barnett consequentials will flow from today’s money to individual sports clubs will be on the basis of announcements, so that the Scottish Government can lost ticket sales, revenue, or a combination of lost ticket provide similar support in Scotland and Scottish sport sales, revenue and hospitality? The Minister has mentioned is not disadvantaged? need. How will “need” be defined? How long will it take? Furthermore, this is not a one-for-one replacement Nigel Huddleston: The mix of loans and grants will of for lost revenues, so what proportion of revenues across course be driven by need and the ability to repay. Of the the major sports contained in the package does the £300 million package, we estimate at this moment that Minister envisage will be covered? £250 million will be loans and £50 million will be grants. Nigel Huddleston: I thank the Chair of the Select However, the loans will be on preferential terms and Committee for his comments and look forward to working will therefore have features of a grant in the early stages, with him over the coming weeks. In terms of the allocation such as payment holidays, so immediate repayment will of money, it is in the name: this is a winter survival not necessarily be expected. We all have skin in the package. It is not meant to be a full pound-for-pound game here, and the incentive is to get sport back up and compensation for lost revenue. The focus is from the running and on its feet and paying back some of those point at which we were unable to open sports stadiums loans, because then we all benefit. on 1 October through to spring. Therefore, while there I can confirm that there are Barnett consequentials to may be hopes of and aspirations for a greater package, this, as there are for other support packages. I cannot we needed to focus on what was needed to ensure that provide the hon. Gentleman with the details at the sports clubs can survive, and that is the focus of this moment. I actually talked to Minister FitzPatrick this effort. We are confident the package will do that. It is a week, and I am sure we will do so again. How the substantial sum of £300 million and will make a huge money is spent is a decision for the devolved effort in that direction. Administrations; sport is a devolved matter.

Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con) [V]: I (SNP): I thank the Minister for advance sight of his congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this excellent statement. I have spoken many times in this place about package of financial support for some core professional the power of sport and the crucial role that sports clubs, sports. I particularly welcome the settlement for national be they amateur, semi-pro or professional, play in our football, and I hope he will ensure that its distribution is local communities. The Minister was absolutely right to based on gate receipts rather than league position. lead with that point. I will focus specifically on rugby union. The Minister I am disappointed that the Government have decided will be aware that, while the professional game has to go down the loans route, rather than having 100% resumed, grassroots rugby has not, thus putting many grant funding. While I welcome his commitment to the clubs,which are small businesses themselves,in a challenging national league and to women’s football, the continuing position. We have healthy, well-supported rugby club omission of support for the senior professional men’s rivalries across Kent, but I fear that we are losing game is disappointing. Scottish football does not have players and potential talent as a consequence of their 511 Sport Sector: Financial Support19 NOVEMBER 2020 Sport Sector: Financial Support 512

[Tracey Crouch] first lockdown, the one thing that we were able to do consistently—not every country did this—was exercise not being able to play for most of this year, which outdoors. It is really important that people do that, to threatens the viability of clubs due to the lack of supporters. keep activity levels up. That is an absolute priority of Will he therefore tell the House what conversations he the Government, as demonstrated in the latest lockdown has had with the Rugby Football Union about the restrictions. trickling down of that money to local rugby clubs and about the safe resumption of rugby at grassroots level, Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): I, too, thank the so that clubs can sustain themselves for the future? Government for the support package that has been announced today, but no matter how much financial Nigel Huddleston: It is great to see my hon. Friend support there is, we need our supporters back into our and I wish her well in her recovery. On the rugby union stadiums. Bath’s local football and rugby clubs have package, we are in constant dialogue with Bill Sweeney worked a great deal over the summer to make sure that about the entire package and about both the grassroots spectators can be safely brought back to matches. I and professional game. The money announced today know the Government are also keen to see that, but we will have trickle-down effects and will benefit the grassroots need a clear road map from them on how our fans can game. Any professional club that is helped and saved return. Will the Minister therefore meet me to discuss with this package will often share facilities with the the plans of Bath Rugby club and Bath City football grassroots game, so it will help. As my hon. Friend club to get spectators back at the earliest possibility? knows, Sport England has provided £220 million of support, and we share the goal of getting grassroots Nigel Huddleston: I would be delighted to meet the sport up and running as soon as possible. Dialogue will hon. Lady and I am sure we can arrange that soon. She continue on rugby union, and I look forward to talking is right to say that clubs have gone to great efforts, and to my hon. Friend about it further. great expense in many cases, to make sure they are secure and have followed the hygiene and coronavirus Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Lots of love, procedures to a great degree. Recently, we had to press Tracey. the pause button on the reopening plans. We have not stopped those plans—we have just pressed the pause button—and we want to get back to reopening as soon Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: I as it is safe to do so. very much welcome this statement, as will sports clubs locally. Will this new package be backdated for sports Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con) [V]: As a lifelong clubs that faced regional lockdowns? I also highlight Mansfield Town supporter, I want to get back into the the important role that broadcasters played during the One Call Stadium as soon as possible to cheer on the pandemic, and could continue to play, with more sports mighty Stags. Having 1,000 fans inside football grounds fixtures universally available, free to air. Has this not is not enough to cover clubs’ costs, and we need our shown the importance of the listed events regime? clubs to survive. Will my hon. Friend look at having a sliding scale attendance figure for each Football League Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman raises a range club, based on its current capacity, which will allow fans of issues. We have encouraged free-to-air broadcasting, to support their teams safely and give clubs a financial and we are pleased that sports that have never been boost, which they need to survive? broadcast before, such as Premier League football on the BBC, were broadcast during lockdown, and we are Nigel Huddleston: It is amazing what people can get pleased with the various moves by the Premier League away with on video link, isn’t it, Mr Deputy Speaker? I and others to make sure that their games are more do not think you would allow that scarf to be worn in accessible. This package runs from 1 October through the House. to the spring, and that is the focus of the package. My hon. Friend raises valid points about when we will get back, and what the criteria and process will be. Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I welcome the All of those are live issues and I would be happy to talk Minister’s statement. He mentions leisure centres. I also to him further about his proposals. put in a plea for the great outdoors, because many of our open spaces—parks and the like—are supported Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I will have and maintained by community groups and councils, words with you, Mr Anderson, when you come back to and they need funding to provide that. I also welcome Parliament. Get well soon. his continued efforts to allow spectators to watch sports. League Two Grimsby Town play their home games in Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab) [V]: I my constituency, and we fans are desperately keen to see thank the Minister for his statement. Three weeks ago, at least one or two games before the end of the season. a number of MPs met Rick Parry, the chair of the English Football League, to discuss the crisis facing Nigel Huddleston: It is not a question from the hon. EFL clubs. He told us that 10 clubs were unlikely to be Gentleman without his mentioning Grimsby Town. He able to pay their wages this month, and if substantial never fails me on that. As I said, the goal is to open up financial assistance was not available soon a number and get fans back into stadiums as soon as it is safe to would go out of business. I have not heard anything in do so. We are working on the detail of the disbursement the statement today that would give reassurance to the of the £100 million leisure facility package and will EFL and the clubs. provide that information in due course. He is also right I am sure the Minister recognises that clubs are not to point out the importance of our great outdoors. like any other business; if one closes, fans cannot go Throughout the coronavirus crisis, including during the down the road and simply buy their football from 513 Sport Sector: Financial Support19 NOVEMBER 2020 Sport Sector: Financial Support 514 another club. Fans give a lifetime of support to their Nigel Huddleston: May I add my congratulations on club and clubs are at the heart of their community. So Scotland’s performance? As I have said, there are Barnett will the Minister now respond to the letter that I sent consequentials to this package, as indeed there have him, along with the hon. Member for Folkestone and been to others, but how that is spent is up to the Hythe (Damian Collins), on behalf of the all-party devolved Administrations. group on football? Will the Minister agree to meet us to discuss the problem of the EFL and meet Rick Parry, Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I its chair, to have a look again at the financial assistance welcome the package. I take note of what the Minister that is going to be needed to ensure that when spectators said about the football league, but, as he knows, there is go back to football they will actually have a team no financial package in place for community clubs in to support? the football league. People may wonder why it is that, for example, the Exeter Chiefs—the premiership rugby Mr Deputy Speaker: Before the Minister answers that, team and European champions—will benefit along with may I ask everyone to focus on short questions and premiership rugby from Government support but Exeter short answers, as we are really under time pressure City football club, with its lower income and lower fan today? attendance, has so far got nothing at all. There needs to be more of a focus on those community clubs in the football league. After the end of the lockdown on Nigel Huddleston: I can confirm to the hon. Gentleman 2 December, will communities in tier 3 not see grassroots that I regularly meet Rick Parry and Richard Masters sport return? There is concern about that, and I would from the Premier League; we met this week, along with be grateful for his reassurance, even if only to say that other stakeholders. As the hon. Gentleman will know, no decision has yet been made. the Premier League has made a commitment that it will not allow any EFL club to go under. At the elite end we Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend for those have that commitment that no club will go under, and comments. I know what a great champion he is of sport the package we have announced today for football will and football in particular. Indeed, I cannot commit to make sure that the National League does not go under. exactly what the tiering system will be—no surprise Therefore, across the whole pyramid we now have this there—but I repeat the commitment of the Secretary of security, but it is up to the Premier League and the EFL State, who said that we want to ensure that grassroots is to come to a conclusion to those discussions. I encourage at the front of the queue. As I said, we all have an them to do so on a regular basis. incentive to ensure that sport opens up and we get stadiums open as soon as possible. Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): I In terms of EFL support, I refer my hon. Friend to really welcome the Minister’s announcement that national the comments I made earlier about the Premier League league clubs up to level 7 will get extra support. and EFL needing to come to an arrangement. On the Unfortunately, Northern league clubs including Consett, grassroots, we are very reliant on, and grateful for, the Tow Law Town, Crook Town and Willington in my work Sport England has done with its £220 million of constituency, along with Northallerton Town in the support for the grassroots game. constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Rishi Sunak), are not quite there at Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab) [V]: I have been the right level yet. We have had support from Sport contacted by sports clubs in my constituency, many of England and the Football Foundation, but will he hear which, including Bedford Town and Kempston Rovers, representations for support from the Northern league? are still unclear about what support, if any, they will get to help them through the crisis.While today’sannouncement Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend for those may be a relief to many rugby clubs, I am not confident comments. We have talked about football many times, that it will be enough to save those with a sustainable and I appreciate his support. The support announced model such as Bedford Blues. Will the Minister guarantee today is for national league steps 1 to 2 to the tune of up that all clubs will be better off under today’sannouncement to £11 million and national league steps 3 to 6 of up to than they were under the furlough scheme? £14 million. The more grassroots level is not supported in this package, but, as he mentioned, the route to get Nigel Huddleston: Perhaps I should it make clear that support is through Sport England and other packages we encourage all clubs to take advantage of whatever such as the Football Foundation’s grants, which have Government support measures may be out there, including helped clubs get back up to speed and ready for reopening. the existing scheme. This scheme and announcement is I am happy to continue those conversations with him. on top of existing schemes.I therefore encourage everybody and anybody to apply for everything they are eligible Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): Football for. Of course, we are talking about a £300 million gives hope and joy to millions, just as we saw last week package, with over £100 million going to rugby union. when big Davie Marshall dived to his left-hand side to Therefore, by definition, they will be better off than send Scotland to our first European championships they would have been. since 1996. For that hope and joy to persist, we need our football clubs in Scotland to exist. Will the Minister Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con) [V]: I welcome explain why £97 million-worth of cultural funding the news that the Government have agreed further has been made available to Scotland through Barnett financial support for rugby league clubs, which recognises consequentials but we have yet to see a single penny the really important work that clubs such as Warrington of direct funding to support Scottish professional Wolves do in our communities. Will my hon. Friend set football clubs? out more details about that assistance for rugby league 515 Sport Sector: Financial Support19 NOVEMBER 2020 Sport Sector: Financial Support 516

[Andy Carter] due to the financial impact of the pandemic, despite the area facing some of the worst health inequalities. This clubs? What contribution can his Department give to cannot happen, so will the Minister commit to ensuring underwrite the world cup, which, as he knows, is due to today that funding will be given for community leisure be played here next year? facilities post pandemic to ensure that sport remains genuinely accessible for all? Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend. Indeed, we are announcing today an additional £12 million for Nigel Huddleston: I thank the hon. Lady. Of course, rugby league, and that is on top of the £16 million that community facilities and leisure facilities are the was announced earlier in the year. We will be working responsibility of both central and local government. I with the Rugby Football League to distribute that additional know how important they are for local government, money. Actually, it has done a pretty good job so far, and as I say, information on the application process for and therefore we will continue with the existing scheme, this £100 million package will be coming very soon. The but topping it up with the £12 million. Like him, I am hon. Lady is absolutely right to mention the importance very much looking forward to having my first visit to a of making sure that Government money is spread right game in an official capacity as sports Minister, and across the country. The very first sport package we gave maybe rugby might be one such game, but I hope that is out in order to help was for rugby league, and today’s before the world cup. announcement will help clubs right across the country. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): There are many volunteer- Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP) [V]: I welcome the led, grassroots sports clubs that are really struggling at £6 million announcement for motorsport in particular. this moment in time, and equally there are probably a There is currently no certainty about the future of next number of would-be developers that are looking at year’s world rally championship in the United Kingdom. developing their assets. They are in a vulnerable situation, Can any of the resource that has been announced today and we need to make sure that this funding gets to the be released to facilitate the bid, which is being supported grassroots so that we do not lose the vital sports fields by racers and by Motorsport UK, for Northern Ireland in all our constituencies. What is the Minister doing to to host the WRC in 2021? This is not a devolved issue; ensure that that does not happen? this is a UK-wide issue. I hope that the Minister can help us, and help Elfyn Evans in what I hope will be his Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman raises an world championship year to race it in Ulster? important point about the availability of spaces and fields on which to play a game or, in fact, all sports. As I Nigel Huddleston: I know what a fan the hon. Gentleman have said, the Sport England package of £220 million is of motorsports. What he proposes is not the purpose to help clubs of all sports through coronavirus is important, of this package. As I said, this is a sports winter survival and today’s package will trickle down and help the package for the specific purpose I outlined earlier, but I grassroots. In particular, it will help sustain clubs where, am happy to have conversations with him about what of course, grassroots as well as professional and league he proposes. games are played. Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I am delighted Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): The Minister that the Chancellor’s money tree continues to bear rich knows I care passionately about the sports clubs in my fruit, but while the premier league is cash-rich, lower constituency, particularly the rugby clubs. I very much league clubs such as Southend United have been suffering welcome this announcement and his efforts to get stadiums during the pandemic as a result, dare I say, of poor back open again, so that I might be able to go back to results and finances. Will my hon. Friend write to me to Gwernyfed rugby club very soon. He has already mentioned let me know precisely how much of this money Southend that this decision generates some funding for the Welsh United will get? Will he also look at golf clubs and Government. Can he tell me what can be done to make bowls clubs? sure that the Welsh Government actually get the money to sports clubs in Wales? Nigel Huddleston: Tobe very clear,we are not announcing today, club-by-club, what will be allocated. That is Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend, and indeed subject to the next stage of the process, working with it is not the first time we have talked rugby in this Sport England and governing bodies to make sure the Chamber. To appeal to the common sense and good money is disbursed to individual clubs, but I am happy will of our colleagues in Wales is the most important to follow up with my hon. Friend as that process thing we can do. There will be Barnett consequentials, evolves. In terms of other sports, the criteria we are but I respect the fact that sport is a devolved matter, and talking about is the financial challenge caused by the I am sure that they will be listening to this debate. As I decision not to open on 1 October and what is required have said, there will be Barnett consequentials, and by sports to enable them to survive through to spring. therefore I hope that they will use this money appropriately. Therefore, for any entity that believes it fits that criteria and deserves some money, while the allocations I have Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) announced are provisional, the door is open to other (Lab): Community leisure facilities are the most accessible bids. way for people to get fit and active, yet we face the real prospect of sports facilities in clubs in more affluent Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): I thank the Minister areas of the country enjoying reopening post pandemic, for this welcome announcement for England. I am sure whereas those in the more deprived and disadvantaged he will join me in congratulating the Welsh Labour communities remaining unviable. In Newcastle, we are Government on their £14 million funding package for very concerned that the West Denton swimming pool, Wales’s sport and leisure sector, which was made in for example, is at risk of remaining permanently closed advance of his announcement today.What conversations 517 Sport Sector: Financial Support19 NOVEMBER 2020 Sport Sector: Financial Support 518 has the Minister had with the Welsh Government and Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): May I ask my hon. what funding will flow to the devolved nations after this Friend—my very good friend—to look at why UK announcement today? Athletics and England Athletics seem to be allowed to self-assess what they do with the money given to them, Nigel Huddleston: As the hon. Lady may have heard, especially with regard to the results they achieve? Perhaps I can confirm that there are Barnett consequentials to we could have a meeting on the matter, to which I could the announcement today, and it is up to Wales how it bring some of the affected athletes from my constituency, chooses to spend any money. I congratulate the Welsh who feel most aggrieved. Government on prioritising sport and leisure. As sports Minister, she would not expect me to say anything else. Nigel Huddleston: I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend for a whole host of reasons, but in particular Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): I welcome this package of to talk sport. I note the concerns he raises and would be support. I am keen to get fans back into Portman Road happy to discuss them with him. To be fair, I think we as soon as possible in a safe way. have made huge progress with British athletics. Think back My particular point is about the Landseer Park BMX to 1996, which is not so long ago, when we got one gold track, which lies at the heart of the Gainsborough medal and were 36th in the medal table at the Olympics. community. It is unique and has been there for a very We were second, with 25-plus medals, at Rio. We have long time. It is in a deprived area and it gives young made progress, but perhaps we can make even more. people there something positive to do. The track is deteriorating and there is a campaign to raise money to Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP) [V]: Scottish football resurface it, but it is around £60,000 short at the moment. clubs, such as Forfar Athletic, Brechin City, Montrose Will the Minister work with me, Tracey from the BMX and Arbroath in my Angus constituency, are almost track and British Cycling to, one way or another, make three times more reliant on ticket sales, with gate receipts sure it gets that financial support, so that that unique making up approximately 43% of club revenues. The BMX track can remain at the heart of the Gainsborough Minister advised my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley community? and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) that Barnett consequentials will be a feature of this package, but he Nigel Huddleston: My hon. Friend raises an important was unable to say how much it would be or when it point about making sure we have sports facilities of all would be available. Can the Minister at least advise us sorts and ranges available for our constituents. Sport when this detail will be made available to Scottish England is the body most appropriate to approach to Government colleagues, so that they can, together with seek funding. Of course, it has prioritised its coronavirus clubs, plan how to invest it? response recently, but I am sure it will get back to business as usual in allocations as soon as possible. I Nigel Huddleston: As I have said, I can confirm that, would be happy to have further conversations about as with other support packages, there are Barnett this with my hon. Friend. consequentials. I am not able to give the hon. Gentleman the details he seeks today, but I will work with Treasury Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): Today’s officials and others to make sure that information is announcement is very welcome for premiership rugby forthcoming. clubs such as Harlequins, as well as national league south football clubs such as Hampton and Richmond, John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I welcome this package both of which are in my constituency. The Minister is and congratulate the Minister on securing it from the aware that Quins ran the largest pilot event to date with Treasury. However, we all recognise that it cannot last spectators: 3,500 attended a match earlier this year forever, so does he accept that we need a change of which was proved to be very safe and very secure. We approach for sports participation, with its huge benefits will naturally return, in time, to spectators in stands, for both physical and mental health? which will be a graduated process, so can the Minister Does the Minister also accept that we need help for provide some assurances to clubs such as Quins and the huge ecosystem of the sport and leisure industries, Hampton and Richmond that support will not be and their army of employees? They have spent considerable withdrawn immediately, because ticket revenues will sums on making things safe, and they need the public cover only a small proportion of their costs? Will he see back through their doors and gates. That includes sports to it that we will not have the perverse situation whereby clubs, racecourses and gyms, as well as pubs, clubs, people are allowed into hospitality suites to watch matches, betting shops and casinos. Can the Minister now persuade but not outdoors in the stands where it is an awful lot the Department of Health and Social Care and the safer? Cabinet Office to abandon their risk avoidance and risk aversion strategy, and to adopt an evidence-based risk Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Lady and I have spoken a management approach? couple of times about some of the points she raises. I can give her the reassurance that the pilots that took Nigel Huddleston: The right hon. Gentleman makes a place earlier this year in her constituency and across the pertinent point about the importance of the mental country were not a waste of time. They were fantastic health benefits of sport, as well as its physical benefits. learning experiences and proved very well that we could The conversations about what we can open and when open stadiums safely, but of course there is a bigger are always ongoing, and all opinions are welcome, but issue in terms of transport to and from stadiums and all we will take an evidence-based approach to those decisions. sorts of other matters that we need to consider in the context of the current coronavirus environment. I would Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): Smaller sports be happy to follow up on some of the other issues teams such as Radcliffe and Prestwich Heys in my she raises. constituency sit at the heart of their communities and 519 Sport Sector: Financial Support 19 NOVEMBER 2020 520

[Christian Wakeford] Virtual Participation in Debate are a source of local pride. I look forward to being able to get back to the Neuven Stadium soon. Will my hon. PROCEDURE COMMITTEE Friend confirm that the winter survival package will Select Committee statement support sports teams in Britain’s towns, and not just in big cities? Will he commit to looking further at what Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We now come support can be given to grassroots football? to the Select Committee statement. Karen Bradley will speak initially about the report for up to 10 minutes, Nigel Huddleston: It is always good to talk football during which no interventions may be taken. At the with my hon. Friend—it is not for the first time. I know conclusion of her statement, I will call Members to put his passion for the subject. As I have said, it is really questions on the subject of the statement as on the call important that we get grassroots football up and running list, and call Karen Bradley to respond to them in turn. again as soon as possible. We made great strides in the Members can expect to be called only once and questions summer and we want to get back as soon as we can. The should be brief. I call the Chair of the Procedure package announced today will benefit areas across the Committee. country—towns, cities and rural areas will benefit. 2.8 pm Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab) [V]: I thank the Sports Minister for meeting me to Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I discuss Castleford Tigers, and for listening to us and the rise to speak to the report issued by the Procedure thousands of rugby league supporters who have signed Committee last night about virtual participation in the petitions and called for this urgent help. The funding he debates of this House for those who cannot participate has announced is really important to get clubs through physically. It is the sixth report of the Committee in this the winter, but as we do not yet know what next year Session, and the fourth we have produced on House will bring, will he undertake to keep working with procedure under coronavirus restrictions. rugby league, with grants as well as loans where needed, I must start by thanking the Chair and members of to guarantee that none of our vital rugby league clubs the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time go under because of covid? in the Chamber for this statement, and the sponsors and contributors to this afternoon’s debate for their Nigel Huddleston: Yes, I would of course be happy to understanding. My final thank you is to the very many continue the dialogue. This package is intended to right hon. and hon. Members from all parties who have provide help through to the spring. We do not know given evidence both publicly and privately to my Committee what the circumstances will be next year—none of us on this matter. It is that evidence that has informed the has a crystal ball—but we are all extremely hopeful that Committee and on which our recommendations are vaccines and other measures will enable us to have a based. Those recommendations go much further than much brighter future. We will address the circumstances the Government’s position on this matter. as they arise. I am a great fan of my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House. He Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Minister, thank is a most courteous parliamentarian and, as a Back you for your statement and for responding to questions. Bencher, was one of the greatest champions of the We will now suspend for three minutes. independence of Parliament from the Executive. But his failure to schedule any debate on this subject and his 2.4 pm refusal to listen to the views of the House, expressed so Sitting suspended. fervently on Monday in response to the urgent question secured by my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), when tabling the motion to extend virtual participation in debates is indefensible. The Procedure Committee was unanimous in its view that virtual participation in debates should be extended to all Members who cannot, for whatever reason, participate in person due to the pandemic. There should not be different tests for those who can participate virtually in debates, those who can enjoy virtual participation in our scrutiny proceedings and those who decide to use a proxy vote. It should not take the image of my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) being denied the right to participate in a debate on the very disease that is keeping her from Parliament to make the Government move. The Leader of the House was right to say that nobody could fail to be moved by that image. It is my view that he should have seen the possibility of that image, demonstrating the complete contradiction in his position on this matter, and never have let it happen. The public will be baffled by a situation in which the Prime Minister can answer Prime Minister’s questions virtually yesterday and make 521 Virtual Participation in Debate19 NOVEMBER 2020 Virtual Participation in Debate 522 a statement to the House virtually today but cannot commend her and her Committee for this report, which take part in a debate until he has finished self-isolating. is based on the principle that, despite this awful pandemic, This is an utterly farcical situation. all Members should be able to participate in our debates, I am sure that the Leader of the House, being a whether in person or remotely, and I strongly support traditionalist, does not want to change our procedures that principle. I agree with her that it is the role of the too much because of a fear that those changes will Leader of the House to support MPs to do their job become permanent. I have enormous sympathy with and to speak in debates and that it is not for him to set that view, but we must acknowledge that things are not up exclusions. as they were. This hybrid House is, to coin a phrase, Is the right hon. Lady aware that the number of MPs sub-optimal. We must try to make this House work as who are exercising proxy votes and therefore excluded best we can for the situation we find ourselves in now from debates is 62%? That means that 62% of us are not and ensure that all Members can do their job today. able to speak in our debates; that cannot be right. Is she That requires us to look at the issue strategically, with also aware that the figure for Scottish Members of easy-to-understand and clear rules about participation Parliament is 78%? Imagine having a situation during that reflect today’s reality, as set out in the four reports this pandemic where 78% of Scottish MPs are excluded published by my Committee on this matter. from debates. We want and need to hear from them and I must tell the House how much the Committee from our colleagues in Wales and from the regions appreciates the work being done on the House’s behalf outside Westminster as well. We do not want a situation by all those across the House service and our digital and where half of the Chairs of Select Committees are not audiovisual services to support the work we come here able to speak in debates, even those debates that are on to do. Our corridors are eerily quiet at the moment, for the subject on which they have done inquiries and reasons we all appreciate, but I know that the staff reports. involved will have been working non-stop to get the We might be essential workers, but we can work broadcasting systems ready for virtual participation in remotely. I strongly back the amendment of the hon. debate as soon as there was a prospect of the Government Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and allowing it to happen. my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) to the motion of the Leader of the House. I urge the Under Mr Speaker’s leadership, we have a House right hon. Lady to back that amendment—I am sure service that is well placed to take a strategic view of our that she will—and to urge all other Members to do the circumstances. If there had been a little more strategic same, so that we can override the Leader of the House thinking in certain other quarters about how best to and ensure that all Members are able to speak in equip the House to meet the challenges of the pandemic debates on equal terms at this crucial time. once it was clear that the restrictions were to be extended well into the new year, perhaps the necessary political Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I gave the right signals enabling work on virtual participation to commence hon. and learned Lady some leeway, as Members may could have been sent rather earlier than last weekend. have noticed, but please can people just ask questions Not for the first time, the Government have looked for now? tactical fixes rather than strategic solutions that would Karen Bradley: I thank the right hon. and learned increase the House’s capacity for resilience now and in Lady for her comments. It is important that I make it the future. clear that the Government moved their position on The House must be allowed to have its say on how proxy votes, so that those who have a proxy vote can best we represent our constituents in this place. We are now take part in proceedings in the Chamber and I give all accountable to our constituents, and they will challenge credit to the Government for doing that. None the less, us if they do not believe that we are representing them she is right to say that there is a large number of properly. Around one quarter of Members are using the Members who cannot participate in the Chamber; around ability to participate virtually in scrutiny proceedings. one quarter of Members are exercising the ability to With pandemic restrictions likely to be in place until the participate virtually in scrutiny proceedings because spring at least, I ask the Government to stop using they do not feel that they are able to come to the short-term tactics that require constant U-turns, and Chamber. It is that quarter of Members whom my instead let that quarter of MPs take part in debates. Committee is incredibly keen to see taking part in Nobody—not even my right hon. Friend the Leader debates. By the time we get to the end of March, it will of the House—has a monopoly on being right. It is have been nearly 12 months that a quarter of Members possible that the majority of the House agrees with him, will not have been able to take part in debates. That is not my Committee, but the only way to find that out is simply not acceptable. to schedule a debate on the matter and allow a free vote, Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con) as I think he would have demanded if our roles were [V]: I completely agree with everything that my right reversed. As a Back-Bench Member of this House, hon. Friend has said. I also agree with the Mother of there are two ways that I can represent my constituents: the House. It is absolutely unacceptable that Members by speaking in this Chamber on their behalf and by are still unable to fulfil their jobs properly in our Parliament. casting my vote. We are in danger of removing both We have this superficial sense that we are all taking those rights from far too many Members. I commend part: we are able to ask questions and to ballot for my Committee’s report and this statement to the House. absolutely everything, but we cannot bob, we can barely intervene and far too many people cannot even speak in Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab) debates. Will my right hon. Friend please continue to [V]: May I thank the right hon. Member for Staffordshire press very firmly that we get some normality back into Moorlands (Karen Bradley) for her statement and say our Parliament so that we can hold the Government to that I agreed with absolutely every single word of it? I account properly? 523 Virtual Participation in Debate19 NOVEMBER 2020 Virtual Participation in Debate 524

Karen Bradley: I thank my right hon. Friend, who that he has now requested the capacity be improved was an esteemed Leader of the House in her day and when the Clerk argues that the capacity is there. Does knows these issues incredibly well. The point that the the right hon. Lady agree that if the Standing Orders Committee wanted to get across was that we cannot could be changed to allow for full participation, another continue having a situation where so many Members Standing Order could be changed to say that those are unable to take part in our debates. As I have said, by taking part in the hybrid proceedings on the screens the end of March, this will have been going on for could not do things such as intervene, but that, as was nearly 12 months. I urge the Government to give time so eloquently put last week, that is a small price to pay for that debate and to give the House the chance to have for allowing Members to take part in all debates, including its say. The House may well agree with the Government, on Armistice services, when Members were excluded but we will never know unless we have that opportunity. from what should have been truly cross-House debate that brought the House together and showed it at Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) its best? (LD) [V]: I am my wife’s carer, which I think is well known in the House. If I come down from the north of Karen Bradley: I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is Scotland to London, catch the virus and have to self-isolate another esteemed member of the Committee; it is very for two weeks, what good is that to my wife? I have to gracious of him to make those comments. His experience make a choice between my constituents and my wife. as a member of the previous Committee certainly helped Surely the situation that we have at present is extremely me coming back on to the Committee, as I did in dangerous and corrosive to our precious democracy— January this year as the new Chair. He makes some something that should be an example to the world, but incredibly important points. The Armistice Day debate which right now is not. was so powerful and did show the House at its best, but Karen Bradley: The hon. Gentleman is right about by excluding a quarter of Members, who simply could the way in which our democracy is being portrayed. not take part because their own health or the health of When we introduced our hybrid proceedings in April, their loved ones would be put at risk, simply demonstrates we were actually held up around the world as a fantastic to me, once again, the need for this provision. There is example of ensuring full participation for all Members. capacity; we have heard evidence time and again that We all accept that there will be differences in ability the House service can deliver this. I urge my right hon. between those who participate virtually, and those who Friend the Leader of the House to give the House a are here in the Chamber and can therefore interact in a chance to have its say on the matter. different way, but that does not mean that we should Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con) [V]: I also extend my preclude people who wish to participate virtually from appreciation to my right hon. Friend for her statement. all our proceedings. I know that the House services can I understand the strong desire to have MPs appearing in make it work, and I want the Government to allow the Chamber in so far as it is possible for them to do so, them the chance to do so. but would it not be sensible for there to be a system Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) [V]: Does my right whereby Members who are self-isolating, either because hon. Friend agree that if we have to find a balance of age, health or pregnancy—or indeed, because of a between spontaneity and interactivity in debates, and member of their household having equivalent concerns— allowing all Members to take part in those debates, the could verify their status via a doctor’s note? I know that choice should be easy and clear—we should choose to there has been some reticence to have Members disclosing have as many Members taking part as we possibly can, their health conditions, but it strikes me that that would and not restrict a quarter of them? draw parity with employees in any other workplace, who would have to explain the reason for their absence, Karen Bradley: I thank my hon. Friend, a fellow and would create a justifiable basis for allowing Members Committee member, who has made such a contribution to participate remotely. to the report. I agree wholeheartedly with what he says. Karen Bradley: My hon. Friend made a very important Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I pay tribute to the point on Monday when she raised the issue of pregnant right hon. Lady for the leadership that she has shown women. The fact that those women do not fall into the since taking over the chairmanship of the Committee. definition of clinically extremely vulnerable means that, It must feel like a decade ago, but it has not even been a as things stand, the Government propose that they will year. She has shown enormous leadership in ensuring have to come into the House if they wish to take part in that the reports have all been on a cross-party basis. As debates. I know that the Leader of the House has a member of the Procedure Committee for the last concerns about that; he has said so to me privately. I four years, I think that we have covered more ground in hope that he would listen and make sure that he does nine months than we did in two whole previous Parliaments. allow for pregnant women to be able to take part in Let me take her to paragraph 33 on page 11 of the debates. My hon. Friend makes an interesting comment report, where we talk about the issues of hybrid procedures about the analogy between other workplaces and this and a mixed debating system. We state in that paragraph workplace. She will know that for other workplaces the that the Clerk of the House has confirmed that we have Government’s advice is, “If you can work from home, made significant progress in relation to the availability you should.” Perhaps the Leader of the House should of the Chamber to be fully hybrid for all debates, but listen to that piece of advice as well. that the Standing Orders for this have not been progressed because there has been no request from the House to do Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): It would be a so. To me, this confirms that the House is ready and good thing if the Leader of the House would actually there is enough capacity. As I said on Monday, it is listen to the statements that are happening at the moment. disappointing that the Leader of the House has suggested I add my congratulations to the right hon. Lady on the 525 Virtual Participation in Debate19 NOVEMBER 2020 Virtual Participation in Debate 526 superb work she is doing on the Procedure Committee the day and the Leader of the House. He remains firm in these very difficult times in which we find ourselves. I in his conviction that unless Members are physically note that the first questions on this statement came present in this Chamber, they are somehow not truly at from two very well-liked and effective Leaders of the work. Why does the right hon. Lady think the Leader of House—the Leader of the House’s esteemed predecessors the House is so firm in his view and so resistant to the to whom he should listen. Does the right hon. Lady deployment of technology to allow Members to work agree that the situation we have now has created two remotely and fully? different classes of MP? Behind each MP, there are the constituents that they represent, and they have the Karen Bradley: I am not going to try to answer that right, having been elected to this House, to represent question on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Leader them in the same way as any other Member of the of the House. I am sure he will answer it for himself. I House. The Leader of the House appears to think that say again that the House wants to have its say on this, he can dispense with that principle because he does not and I hope that he will listen to that point. want spontaneity in debates to disappear. He must Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I place on record not—does she agree?—let the perfect get in the way of my thanks to the Chair of the Procedure Committee the good. He must recognise that these are temporary and all its members, who have been absolutely assiduous issues in a pandemic, and that we all wish to return to in their work. With so many reports, the workload has this place being the lively,crowded, interesting, challenging been incredible, and the Committee has informed a very place that it is when the green Benches are completely important debate. full. I also place on record my thanks to the Broadcasting Unit, which has been absolutely superb. As has been said, Karen Bradley: I thank the hon. Lady—another esteemed we are world leaders in a virtual Parliament, and people member of the Committee. It is much easier answering are looking at how we do our work. In paragraph 28 of questions on a statement from here on the Back Benches this excellent report, Matthew Hamlyn, the strategic than it is from the Dispatch Box where I used to answer director for the Chamber Business Team, confirms that questions. It is a much more pleasurable experience. She the resilience of the broadcasting hub has been substantially makes exactly the right points. I think that all of us were improved. At paragraph 33, the Clerk of the House able to accept that this was a short-term measure and confirms that the infrastructure necessary to support that maybe we could allow for a little change in our mixed physical and virtual contributions is ready to roll. procedures because of that. However, it is not short-term. At paragraph 58, the important point is made about It is going on until at least the end of March—that is hon. Members’ eligibility. We are all equal, and we all what the Government’s procedures say—and we cannot have to play our part in democracy. continue to exclude so many Members from our debates. I agree with what she said. There is a mention of Mr Speaker reporting by 14 December. There is such important legislation coming James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): As another member through at the beginning of December, not least because of the Procedure Committee, I commend my right hon. it is the most dramatic time for the United Kingdom, as Friend for her leadership, for her statement and for the we leave the EU. Important pieces of legislation need to report that she published last night. It is absolutely the be put through Parliament, and our colleagues will not right thing to do to bring in this motion and to extend be able to take part. Is there any way that the Chair of virtual and remote participation for our Members. May the Procedure Committee can look at that? We stand I urge her to consider the fact that this can only be ready to work with her and with the Leader of the temporary and that we must of course return to normality House to ensure that these measures are put in place so and a fully operating Chamber as soon as possible? that all colleagues can take part in those debates. Karen Bradley: The right hon. Lady is right when she Karen Bradley: You will spot, Mr Deputy Speaker, says that we are a world leader. As we discussed earlier that Procedure Committee members are very active in in this statement, the rest of the world looked on in awe the Chamber, and it is great to have a contribution from at what we in this House were able to achieve so quickly. another member. I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. The other place is using so many of the facilities and I want to be clear to the Government: anything that procedures that we developed and then disregarded. We they have written in this report is about how we conduct decided that we did not want to use them; we wanted to our business today and for the foreseeable future until return to some form of normality that simply cannot be we can get back to normal, but the Committee is achieved at the moment. unanimous in wanting to get back to normal, returning to our procedures as they were, as soon as we possibly I have not yet paid tribute to the Clerk of the Procedure can. It will then of course be for the Procedure Committee Committee, Martyn Atkins, and I must do so. He is, and future Committees to consider the way that procedure sadly, moving on. His time with us has been and gone happens in this House and things that they may want to several times over, and he is finally being dragged from change in the future, but the measures we are asking for us—kicking and screaming, as far as we are concerned. today are only for the period of the pandemic, not He has turned around reports and dealt with these beyond that. matters in a way that no one could have anticipated. We may have thought that we had finished with procedural Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP) [V]: I also novelties when we left the European Union, but it turns welcome this report and commend the Chair and her out that covid has introduced more procedural novelties colleagues on the work they have done and are continuing than we could ever have imagined. to do on this matter. As she rightly observes, for these The right hon. Lady asks what mechanisms we can proposals to be implemented, they will require the use to bring these measures in. The first, of course, is to acquiescence, if not the support, of the Government of implore the Government to listen and give time for a 527 Virtual Participation in Debate 19 NOVEMBER 2020 528 [Karen Bradley] Backbench Business debate. If that is not possible, I will speak to the Backbench Business Committee and see whether there Online Harms is any way we can find time for a debate on the matter to [Relevant Documents: Online abuse and the experience give the House an opportunity to have its say, even if of disabled people, Petitions Committee, First Report of that is not on a binding measure, as it would be if the Session 2017-19, HC 759 and the Government response, Government tabled a motion. HC 2122; and Oral evidence taken before the Petitions Committee on 21 May and 2 July 2020, on Tackling Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the Online Abuse, HC 364.] Chair of the Procedure Committee for her statement and for responding to the questions. I, too, would like 2.38 pm to put on record my thanks to the Broadcasting Unit for performing miracles on a daily basis while the Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): I House is sitting. It is quite remarkable what has been beg to move, achieved in such a short space of time. That this House recognises the need to take urgent action to We will now suspend briefly in order to sanitise the reduce and prevent online harms; and urges the Government to bring forward the Online Harms Bill as soon as possible. Dispatch Boxes and to allow Members to leave safely. The motion stands in my name and those of the hon. Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana 4 June). Johnson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce). I begin by thanking the Backbench 2.34 pm Business Committee for finding time for what I hope Sitting suspended. the House will agree is an important and urgent debate. I am conscious that a great number of colleagues wish to speak and that they have limited time in which to do so, so I will be brief as I can. I know also that there are right hon. and hon. Members who wished to be here to support the motion but could not be. I mention, in particular, my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight), the Chair of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee, who is chairing the Committee as we speak. I hope that today’sdebate will largely be about solutions, but perhaps we should begin with the scale of the problem. The term “online harms” covers many things, from child sexual exploitation to the promotion of suicide, hate speech and intimidation, disinformation perpetrated by individuals, groups and even nation states, and many other things. Those problems have increased with the growth of the internet, and they have grown even faster over recent months as the global pandemic has led to us all spending more time online. Let me offer just two examples. First, between January and April this year, as we were all starting to learn about the covid-19 virus, there were around 80 million interactions on Facebook with websites known to promulgate disinformation on that subject. By contrast, the websites of the World Health Organisation and the US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention each had around 6 million interactions. Secondly, during roughly the same period, online sex crimes recorded against children were running at more than 100 a day. The online platforms have taken some action to combat the harms I have mentioned, and I welcome that, but it is not enough, as the platforms themselves mostly recognise.

Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con): You may have noticed, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I am ostentatiously wearing purple. I have been missioned to do so because it is World Pancreatic Cancer Day. We have been asked to emphasise it, because raising awareness of that disease is important. My right hon. and learned Friend is right to highlight the horror of degrading and corrupting pornography. Indeed, the Government have no excuse for not doing more, because the Digital Economy Act 2017 obliges 529 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 530 them to do so. Why do we not have age verification, as I recognise that what I am talking about is not the was promised in that Act and in our manifesto? It is a answer to every question in this area, but it would be a straightforward measure that the Government could big step towards a safer online world if designed with introduce to save lives in the way my right hon. and sufficient ambition and implemented with sufficient learned Friend describes. determination. The duty of care should ask nothing unreasonable of the digital platforms. It would be Jeremy Wright: I agree with my right hon. Friend, but unreasonable, for example, to suggest that every example I will be careful, Mr Deputy Speaker, in what I say of harmful content reaching a vulnerable user would about age verification, because I am conscious that a automatically be a breach of the duty of care. Platforms judicial review case is in progress on that subject. However, should be obliged to put in place systems to protect I agree that that is something that we could and should their users that are as effective as they can be, not that do, and not necessarily in direct conjunction with an achieve the impossible. online harms Bill. However, meeting that duty of care must mean doing Digital platforms should also recognise that a safer more than is being done now. It should mean proactively internet is, in the end, good for business. Their business scanning the horizon for those emerging harms that the model requires us to spend more and more time online, platforms are best placed to see and designing mitigation and we will do that only if we feel safe there. The for them, not waiting for terrible cases and news headlines platforms should recognise that Governments must act to prompt action retrospectively.The duty of care should in that space, and that people of every country with mean changing algorithms that prioritise the harmful internet access quite properly expect them to. We have and the hateful because they keep our attention longer operated for some time on the principle that what is and cause us to see more adverts. When a search engine unacceptable offline is unacceptable online. How can it asked about suicide shows a how-to guide on taking be right that actions and behaviours that cause real one’s own life long before it shows the number for the harm and would be controlled and restricted in every Samaritans, that is a design choice. The duty of care other environment, whether broadcast media, print media needs to require a different design choice to be made. or out on the street, are not restricted at all online? When it comes to factual inquiries, the duty of care should expect the prioritisation of authoritative sources I accept that freedom of speech online is important, over scurrilous ones. but I cannot accept that the online world is somehow It is reasonable to expect these things of the online sacred space where regulation has no place regardless of platforms. Doing what is reasonable to keep us safe what goes on there. Given the centrality of social media must surely be the least we expect of those who create to modern political debate, should we rely on the platforms the world in which we now spend so much of our time. alone to decide which comments are acceptable and We should legislate to say so, and we should legislate to which are unacceptable, especially during election make sure that it happens. That means regulation, and campaigns? I think not, and for me the case for online as the hon. Gentleman suggests, it means a regulator—one regulation is clear. However, it must be the right kind of that has the independence, the resources and the personnel regulation—regulation that gives innovation and invention to set and investigate our expectations of the online room to grow, that allows developing enterprises to platforms. For the avoidance of doubt, our expectations offer us life-enhancing services and create good jobs, should be higher than the platforms’ own terms and but that requires those enterprises to take proper conditions. However, if the regulator we create is to be responsibility for their products and services, and for taken seriously by these huge multinational companies, the consequences of their use. I believe that that balance it must also have the power to enforce our expectations. is to be found in the proposed duty of care for online That means that it must have teeth and a range of platforms, as set out in the Government’s White Paper sanctions, including individual director liability and site of April last year. blocking in extreme cases. I declare an interest as one of the Ministers who Weneed an enforceable duty of care for online platforms brought forward that White Paper at the time, and I pay to begin making the internet a safer place. Here is the tribute to all those in government and beyond, including good news for the Minister, who I know understands the talented civil servants at the Department for Digital, this agenda well. So often, such debates are intended to Culture, Media and Sport, who worked so hard to persuade the Government to change direction, to follow complete it. This duty of care is for all online companies a different policy path. I am not asking the Government that deal with user-generated content to keep those who to do that, but rather to continue following the policy use their platforms as safe as they reasonably can. path they are already on—I just want them to move faster along that path. I am not pretending that it is an Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): We have covered easy path. There will be complex and difficult judgments some important information. Does the right hon. and to be made and significant controversy in what will be learned Gentleman agree that there needs to be a new groundbreaking and challenging legislation, but we have social media regulator with the power to audit and shied away from this challenge for far too long. impact social media algorithms to ensure that they do The reason for urgency is not only that, while we not cause harm? Such a regulator would enable that to delay, lives continue to be ruined by online harms, happen. sufficient though that is. It is also because we have a real opportunity and the obligation of global leadership Jeremy Wright: I agree that we need a regulator and here. The world has looked with interest at the prospectus will come on to exactly that point. The hon. Gentleman we have set out on online harms regulation, and it now is entirely right, for reasons that I will outline in just needs to see us follow through with action so that we a moment. can leverage our country’s well-deserved reputation for 531 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 532

[Jeremy Wright] 2.53 pm respecting innovation and the rule of law to set a global Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I standard in a balanced and effective regulatory approach. congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the We can only do that when the Government bring forward Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) the online harms Bill for Parliament to consider and, on his excellent speech introducing this debate. We need yes, perhaps even to improve. We owe it to every preyed- to be clear that the online harms White Paper response upon child, every frightened parent and everyone abused, from the Government is urgently needed, as is the draft intimidated or deliberately misled online to act, and to Bill. We have been discussing this for several years now. act now. When I was Chair of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee, we published a report in the summer Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): There is a of 2018 asking for intervention on online harms and three-minute limit on speeches. calling for a regulatory system based on a duty of care placed on the social media companies to act against 2.50 pm harmful content. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) There are difficult decisions to be made in assessing (Lab): I pay tribute to the right hon. and learned what harmful content is and assessing what needs to be Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) done, but I do not believe those decisions should be and the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) for made solely by the chief executives of the social media securing this debate. Today is World Children’s Day, companies. There should be a legal framework that they when we are asked to imagine a better future for every have to work within, just as people in so many other child, and I will focus my remarks on an online harm industries do. It is not enough to have an online harms that the Government could act on quickly to protect regulatory system based just on the terms and conditions our children. Commercial pornography websites are of the companies themselves, in which all Parliament profiteering from exposing children in the UK to hardcore and the regulator can do is observe whether those violent pornography—pornography that it would be companies are administering their own policies. illegal to sell to children offline and that it would be illegal to sell even to adults, unless purchased in a We must have a regulatory body that has an auditing licensed sex shop. function and can look at what is going on inside these companies and the decisions they make to try to remove Three years ago, Parliament passed legislation to and eliminate harmful hate speech, medical conspiracy close this disastrous regulation gap. Three years on, the theories and other more extreme forms of harmful or Government have still not implemented it. Assurances violent content. Companies such as Facebook say that that the regulation gap will be filled by the forthcoming they remove 95% of harmful content. How do we online harms legislation do not stand up to objective know? Because Facebook tells us. Has anyone checked? scrutiny. This is a child protection disaster happening No. Can anyone check? No; we are not allowed to now, and the Government could and, I hope, will act check. Those companies have constantly refused to now. allow independent academic bodies to go in and scrutinise Children are being exposed to online pornography at what goes on within them. That is simply not good enough. an alarming scale, and during the covid-19 pandemic, there is no doubt that the figures will have increased We should be clear that we are not talking about even more with children more often having unsupervised regulating speech. We are talking about regulating a online access. The issue is the widespread availability business model. It is a business model that prioritises and severity of online pornography accessible at home. the amplification of content that engages people, and it It is no longer about adult magazines on the top shelf in does not care whether or not that content is harmful. the newsagent. Contemporary pornography is also All it cares about is the engagement. So people who overwhelmingly violent and misogynistic, and it feeds engage in medical conspiracy theories will see more and fuels the toxic attitudes that we see particularly medical conspiracy theories. A young person who engages towards women and girls. with images of self-harm will see more images of self-harm. No one is stepping in to prevent that. How do we know Back in 2017, Parliament passed part 3 of the Digital that Facebook did all it could to stop the live broadcast Economy Act. Enacted, it would prohibit commercial of a terrorist attack in Christchurch, New Zealand? No pornography websites from making their content available one knows. We have only Facebook’s word for it, and to anyone under the age of 18 and create a regulator the scale of that problem could have been a lot worse. and an enforcement mechanism. It was backed by the leading children’s charities, including the National Society The tools and systems of these companies are actively for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and Barnardo’s, directing people to harmful content. People often talk as well as the majority of parents. However, in 2019, the about how easy it is to search for this material. Companies Government announced that they would not be such as Facebook will say, “We downgrade this material implementing part 3 of the 2017 Act. In the online on our site to make it hard to find,” but they direct harms White Paper in February, the Government said people to it. People are not searching for it—it is being that any verification pushed at them. Some 70% of what people watch on “will only apply to companies that provide services or use functionality YouTube is selected for them by YouTube, not searched on their websites which facilitate the sharing of user generated for by them. An internal study done by Facebook in content or user interactions”. Germany in 2016, which the company suppressed and That is not good enough. Parliament has already spoken. was leaked to the media this year, showed that 60% of We have said what we want to happen. I expect the people who joined Facebook groups that shared extremist Government to build on part 3 of the 2017 Act. It is set material did so at the recommendation of Facebook, out and is ready to go to. They should act on it now. because they had engaged with material like that before. 533 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 534

That is what we are trying to regulate—a business and deserve to be kept much safer from online harm, so model that is broken—and we desperately need to move I urge the Government not to let the best be the enemy on with online harms. of the good. They committed to producing an online harms Bill to comprehensively address online harms 2.56 pm and acknowledged that such a Bill was critically urgent, Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I thank the right hon. but they have failed to do so expeditiously. Specifically, and learned Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy the Government have failed to implement age verification, Wright) for securing the debate with the hon. Member legislation on which was actually passed in part 3 of the for Congleton (Fiona Bruce). I pay particular tribute to Digital Economy Act 2017. I urge the Government to him, because when he was Culture Secretary, he and implement age verification, and join colleagues in doing Margot James, who is no longer in this place, spearheaded so today. We will never make the internet safe, but we this legislation. They are a credit to the House for can make it safer by implementing measures quickly to ensuring that this was a priority for the Government give children some protection from commercial then. I know how important the Under-Secretary of pornography sites, pending the introduction of a more State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. comprehensive Bill. Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman), We need to do so much more to protect children from thinks this is, but some of us—me included—have been being drawn into producing material themselves. There talking about this issue for more than three and a half is growing concern about self-generated indecent images years, and this Bill needs to come forward. The delays of children, made when a child is tricked or coerced into just are not acceptable, and too many people are at risk. sending sexual material of themselves. I commend the I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Folkestone and work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove Hythe (Damian Collins) for not only his speech but his (Sajid Javid), who, with the Centre for Social Justice, chairmanship of the DCMS Committee, which he did has launched an investigation into child sexual abuse, without fear or favour. He took on the platforms, and and I commend his op-ed in The Sun on Sunday last they did not like it. All credit to him for standing up for week. It is not often that I commend something in what he believes in and trying to take on these giants. The Sun, but in his op-ed he highlighted the increase in In the two minutes I have left, I want to talk about the livestreamed abuse in which sex offenders hire traffickers inquiry of my all-party parliamentary group on social in countries such as the Philippines to find children for media in relation to child harm, which the right hon. them to violate via a video link. I also thank the and learned Member for Kenilworth and Southam touched International Justice Mission for its effective work in on. The Internet Watch Foundation is a charity that highlighting this despicable trade and consumption, in works with tech industries and is partly funded by respect of which the UK is the world’s third largest them. It also works with law enforcement agencies and offender. As the IJM says, we need to do more than is funded by the Government and currently by the highlight this; the Government need to improve prevention, European Union. It removes self-generated images of detection and prosecution. child abuse. It removes URLs of children who have Yes, we have made great strides as a country in been coerced and groomed into taking images of themselves detecting and removing child sexual abuse material in a way that anyone in this House would find utterly from UK-hosted websites, but livestreamed abuse is not disgusting and immoral. That is its sole, core purpose. being detected or reported and much more needs to be The problem is extremely complex. The IWF has seen done by tech companies and social media platforms to a 50% increase in public reports of suspected child rectify the situation. Legislation must require them to abuse over the past year, but the take-down rate of act. For example, they could adopt a safety-by-design URLs has dropped by 89%. I have pressed DCMS approach so that a camera cannot be flipped to face a Ministers and Cabinet Office Ministers to ensure that child. Regulation of the online space is needed to ensure IWF funding will continue, to address the fact that that companies take swift and meaningful action to these URLs are not being taken down and to put more detect the online sexual exploitation of children, and resources into purposefully tackling this abhorrent problem there must be more accountability for offenders who of self-generated harm, whether the children are groomed commit this abuse. We should not distinguish the actions through platforms, live streaming or gaming. of those offenders from the actions of those who prey The platforms have not gone far enough. They are on children in person. Every image depicts a real child not acknowledging the problem in front of them. I being hurt in the real world. Communities of online honestly believe that if a future Bill provides the power offenders often ask for original videos and images as for the platforms to decide what is appropriate and for their price of admission, prompting further targeting Ofcom to make recommendations or fine them on that and grooming of vulnerable children. basis, it is a flawed system. It is self-regulation with a The Government need to act urgently to help better regulator—it does not make any sense. The platforms to protect vulnerable children—indeed, all children—and themselves say that it does not work. to promote greater awareness, including through education. In closing, will the Minister please—please—get a Children need to know that it is not their fault and that grip on the issues that the IWF is raising, continue its they can talk to someone about it, so that they do not funding, and do all that he can to protect children from feel, as so many teachers who have talked to Childline the harm that many of them face in their bedrooms have said, “I can’t deal with this anymore. I want and homes across the UK? to die.” 2.59 pm 3.2 pm Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): The Prime Minister Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ reminded us today that the first duty of Government is Co-op): Many of us took part in a debate on these to protect their citizens from harm. Our children need issues in Westminster Hall recently. I do not want to 535 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 536

[Stephen Doughty] harassment, engagement algorithms, the effect on our politics and public discourse, the growth in people repeat all the comments I made then, but I have seen the gambling on their own, scammers and chancers, and at wide range of online harms in my constituency of the very worst end, radicalisation and, as we have heard Cardiff South and Penarth, and the online harms leading from many colleagues, sexual exploitation. I am grateful to real-world harms, violence and hatred on our streets. to the Backbench Business Committee for granting In that Westminster Hall debate, I spoke about the time for the debate, but this is not one subject for debate range of less well-known platforms that the Government but about a dozen, and it needs a lot more time at these must get to grips with—the likes of Telegram, Parler, formative stages, which I hope the Government will BitChute and various other platforms that are used by provide. My brief comments will be specifically about extremist organisations. I pay tribute to the work that children. HOPE not Hate and other organisations are doing. I When I was at the Department for Education, I heard declare an interest as a parliamentary friend of HOPE repeatedly from teenagers who were worried about the not Hate and commend to the Minister and the effect on their peers’ mental health of the experience of Government its excellent report on online regulation these curated perfect lives, with the constant scoring of that was released just this week. young people’s popularity and attractiveness and the I wish to give one example of why it is so crucial that bullying that no longer stops when a young person the Government act, and act now, and it relates to the comes through their parents’ front door but stays with behaviour of some of the well-known platforms. In the them overnight. I heard from teachers about the effect past couple of weeks, I have spoken to one of those of technology on sleep and concentration and on taking platforms: YouTube—Google. It is not the first time too much time from other things that young people that I have spoken to YouTube; I have previously raised should be doing in their growing up. I take a lot of what concerns about its content on many occasions as a will be in this legislation as read, so what I will say is not members of the Home Affairs Committee. It was ironic an exclusive list, but I have three big asks of what the to be asked to take part in a programme to support legislation and secondary legislation should cover for local schools on internet safety and being safe online, children. By children, I mean anybody up to the age of when at the same time YouTube, despite my personally 16 or 18. Let us not have any idea that there is a separate having reported instances of far-right extremism, gang concept of a digital age of consent that is in some way violence and other issues that specifically affect my different. constituency,has refused to remove that content. YouTube First, the legislation will of course tackle the promotion has not removed it, despite my reporting it. of harms such as self-harm and eating disorders, but we I am talking about examples of gang videos involving need to go further and tackle the prevalence and convicted drug dealers in my constituency; videos of normalisation of content related to those topics so that young people dripping in simulated blood after simulated fewer young people come across it in the first place. stabbings; videos encouraging drug dealing and violence Secondly,on compulsive design techniques such as autoplay, and involving young people as actors in a local park, infinite scroll and streak rewards, I do not suggest that just hundreds of metres from my own house—but they the Government should get in the business of designing have not been removed, on grounds of legitimate artistic applications, but there need to be natural breaks, just as expression. There are examples of extremist right-wing there always were when children’s telly came to an end organisations promoting hatred against Jews, black people or in running out of coins at the amusement arcade, to and the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community go and do something else. Actually, we need to go that I have repeatedly reported, but they were still on further, with demetrification—an ugly word but an there at the start of this debate. The only conclusion I important concept—because children should not be can draw is that these companies simply do not give a worrying about their follower-to-following ratio or how damn about what the public think, what parents think, many likes they get when they post a photograph. Bear what teachers think, what all sides of the House think, what in mind that Facebook managed to survive without Governments think or what the police think, because likes up to 2009. they are failing to act, having been repeatedly warned. Thirdly, we need to have a restoration of reality, That is why the Government must come in and regulate, discouraging and, at the very least, clearly marking and they must do it sooner rather than later. doctored photos and disclosing influencers’ product We need to see action taken on content relating to placements and not allowing the marketing of selfie proscribed organisations—I cannot understand how facial enhancements to young children. It is not only that content is online when those organisations are about digital literacy and resilience, though that plays a proscribed by the Government—where there are clear part. The new material in schools from this term is an examples of extremism, hate speech and criminality. I important step, but it will need to be developed further. cannot understand why age verification is not used even It has always been hard growing up, but it is a lot as a minimum standard on some of these gang videos harder to do it live in the glare of social media. This and violent videos, which perhaps could be justified in generation will not get another chance at their youth. some parallel world, when age verification is used for That is why, yes, it is important that we get it right, but it other content. Some people talk about free speech. The is also important that we get it done and we move reality is that these failures are leading to a decline in forward now. freedom online and in safety for our young people. 3.6 pm 3.9 pm Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): There are so Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) many aspects to this, including misinformation on the (Lab): This vital work is indeed taking far too long, and pandemic, disinformation and foreign influence operations, so much so that the Petitions Committee has launched a 537 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 538 new inquiry on tackling online abuse following up our this debate. But the internet can be used for harm. In report in the last Parliament and looking at potential the limited time I have I want to make just two points. solutions for reducing crime and preventing it. Although One is about the impact on children and the other is the Government’s response to our previous report was about advertising online. positive, regrettably its online harms White Paper failed When I was the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, to address most of our concerns in relation to the Media and Sport, I initially took the idea to the then impact on disabled people. The new inquiry will therefore Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member continue to scrutinise the Government’s response to for Maidenhead (Mrs May), that we should have an online abuse and press Ministers on the action that internet safety strategy. That is what has become the needs to be taken. We would welcome evidence to our online harms strategy. The internet safety strategy was inquiry from campaigners, legal professionals, social born out of my work in the Home Office when I was media companies and members of the public. the Minister for Preventing Abuse, Exploitation and I want to address as well some of the most troubling Crime. It was so clear to me through the work that I did material available online—material that has too often in particular on protecting children that the internet spilled over into the offline world with tragic consequences. was being used to harm children. We have some From your internet browser today you could access great successes. The WePROTECT initiative, for video that shows graphic footage of real-event stabbings example, which has had a real impact on removing before alleging that the attack was, in fact, a Jewish pornographic images of children and child abuse online, plot. If you were so inclined, you could watch a five- is a great success, but we must never rest on our laurels. hour-long video that alleges a Jewish conspiracy to I ask my hon. Friend the Minister, who knows full well introduce communism around the world—10,000 people about all this, because he was with me when lots of this already have. I could go on. These videos and others work was happening in the Department, to deal with like it are easily discoverable on some of the so-called the issue of age verification on pornography. I know alternative platforms that have become safe havens for that it does not resolve every issue. It is not going to terrorist propaganda, hate material and covid-19 solve every problem, but there was a message given to disinformation, so it is crucial that when the Government me by children time and again. If there was one thing finally bring their online harms Bill forward, it has to they wanted to see stopped, it was access to pornography have teeth. because that was what was fuelling the harm that they The White Paper proposes establishing a new duty of faced. care for users, overseen by an independent regulator, Turning to advertising, I will share with the House making it clear that fulfilling a duty of care means that this weekend I will be cooking a beef brisket that I following codes of practice. The Government have rightly will be purchasing from Meakins butchers in Leek, and proposed two statutory codes—on sexual exploitation I will be putting on it a beef rub. Hon. Members may and abuse and on terrorism. Will the Minister now ask why I am telling them that. I am telling them that commit to bringing forward another code of practice because I have been mithered for weeks by my 15 year-old on hate crime and wider harms? Without such a code, son, who has seen such a beef rub on Instagram. He is any duty of care for users will be limited to what the not getting his advertising from broadcast media. He is site’s terms and conditions allow. Terms and conditions getting his advertising from the internet and he is desperate are insufficient, as the Government acknowledge; they to try a beef rub on beef brisket, and I will therefore can be patchy and poorly applied. make sure he does so over the weekend. The Antisemitism Policy Trust, which provides the We have to have a level playing field on advertising. secretariat to the all-party parliamentary group against Our broadcast media is about to face real restrictions antisemitism, which I co-chair, has produced evidence on the way that certain products can be advertised. This outlining how hateful online materials can lead to violent will impact on our public service broadcasters in particular, hate crime offline. A code of practice on hate crime, but we do not see the same level of regulation applied to with systems-level advice to start-ups and minimum the internet, and I know for one that the place my standards for companies will go some way towards children are seeing advertising is on the internet. It is, creating a safer world. There is much more in the Bill sadly, not on broadcast media in the way I picked up my that needs serious consideration, but as a minimum we advertising. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to make need to see a code of practice for hate crime brought sure he does something on that matter as well. forward and given the same status as that for child sexual exploitation and abuse and terrorism, and I hope 3.15 pm today that the Minister can give us some reassurance Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I want to raise just that this will be taken seriously. two points: first, the current epidemic of online frauds; and, secondly, the online sale of the illegal weapons 3.12 pm used on our streets in gang violence. Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I First, the Pension Scams Industry Group has told the congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the current Work and Pensions Committee inquiry that Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) 40,000 people have suffered the devastation of being on securing this debate and I thank the Backbench scammed out of their pension in five years. Much of Business Committee for granting time for it. that is online. Mark Taber told us he has reported to the There is no doubt that the internet can be a force for Financial Conduct Authority this year 380 scam adverts good. Over the past few months, we have all enjoyed the on Google. It is a crime, but after weeks or months the fact that we can keep in touch with family and friends. FCA just issues a warning. The Transparency Task Wecan work from home. Even some people can participate Force told us of in certain parts of our proceedings, although clearly not “high-profile, known crooks…running rings around the regulators”, 539 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 540

[Stephen Timms] She was a victim of revenge porn, a really dark and sinister crime. Her frustration and her powerlessness at and-: not being able to bring down images that directed “Paid keyword search is a highly efficient means for pensions people from across the country to find her and rape & savings scammers to target their victims.” her—and how the law did not reach her—was just Another witness told us that there is something extraordinary to me. I therefore hope that that distinction is very much gone. We need a levelling “a big increase in social media scams”. up in our online and offline worlds Which? said that I want to focus on children. I applaud the work done “we need to look at what sort of responsibilities should be given to date and I welcome the online harms Bill to come, to those online platforms to protect their users from scams.” but unfinished business is my point in this debate. We A director at Aviva told us that it made a commitment to introduce statutory age verification “had to take down 27 fake domains linked to our brand... It is on porn websites. We supported that in 2016 and we very difficult and it takes a very long time to engage the web supported it in 2017. It is still supported now. The most domain providers to get it down.” recent survey suggested that 83% of parents urged it as He called big technology companies “key enablers of mission critical to protect their children. We know that fraud”, and he made a call early exposure to porn is harmful. I understand that “to extend the Online Harms Bill to include the advertising of there are technical issues, but surely these can be overcome. fraudulent investments”. Other countries have shown the way, when we I think that should be done, and I want to ask the were previously world leading—France, for example, Minister if it will be in the legislation. most recently. Secondly, the Criminal Justice Act 1988 bans the sale More must be expected of our social media giants to and import of a list of weapons: disguised knives, maintain safe online environments, but I urge the Minister: butterfly knives, flick knives, gravity knives, stealth we have the legislation, let us use it. knives,zombie knives,sword sticks,push daggers,blowpipes, telescopic truncheons and batons. But all of them are 3.21 pm available online for delivery in the post. That is how Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): most weapons used on the streets in London are obtained. The huge rise in online scams, hate speech and conspiracy As we debated in the Offensive Weapons Bill Committee theories has highlighted why the Government have to in 2018, companies should not sell in the UK products take action urgently, not just by passing legislation but that it is illegal to purchase here. having a counter-narrative to challenge the fake stories The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, we hear about. the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Looking at online hate speech at a recent Home Atkins), said in Committee that the Home Office was Affairs Committee session, we heard that Facebook working with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media had deleted a staggering 9.6 million hate speech posts in and Sport on these online harms, and looking at the first quarter of this year. Much of that hate was “what more we can do to ensure…companies act responsibly and directed towards south and east Asian communities, do not facilitate sales of ‘articles with a blade or point’ or fuelled in part by President Trump using his position of ‘corrosive products’ in their platforms.”––[Official Report, Offensive power to fan the flames of hate by calling covid-19 the Weapons Public Bill Committee, 11 September 2018; c. 280.] China virus. However, those 9.6 million posts are only What I want to ask the Minister is: will that promise be the tip of the iceberg. There is still hate speech that has fulfilled in the coming legislation? not been taken down, where it falls short of being hate speech. This is an area that must concern us greatly. It is not just the south and east Asian communities 3.18 pm who have been targeted. Before lockdown, the blame Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con): Through this for coronavirus was already being directed at the Muslim, pandemic, we have seen what a saving grace the online Jewish, Gypsy,Roma, Traveller and LGBT+ communities. world has proved to be to us. It is a window, and it has Chinese and east Asian people in the UK endured connected us to family and friends, and it has provided physical and verbal attacks, while Muslims were accused important information and services. In fact, I have of ignoring lockdown and spreading the virus by visiting worked hard to bring together different providers and mosques. Conspiracy theories were abundant, and falsely trainers to close the digital divide that so disadvantages linking those groups to the spread of the virus allowed those who are not online. However, at the same time as those conspiracy theories to flourish. being a saving grace, it is also a serious threat to our That leads me to disinformation and conspiracy theories. health and wellbeing, our security and our democracy—all The anti-vaccine conspiracy theories are particularly of these things. I hope that, through this experience, we insidious, because casting doubt in people’s minds will have now come to a place where we recognise that there result in people choosing not to be vaccinated, which in is no longer this distinction between the offline and the turn could lead to them catching the virus and passing online worlds. it on to others. I will not give credence to any absurd That question was very much put at the trial of the anti-vaccine conspiracy theories by repeating them, but man who threatened to kill me in 2017. I can assure unchecked they could be damaging to the health of the hon. Members and all watching that it was real and it nation. hurt. The same pain, the same suffering and the same Last year, I had the pleasure of visiting Ethiopia with frustration was felt by one of my constituents in 2016, the charity RESULTS UK to see how it has almost where again the same question was posed: is there a eradicated tuberculosis by vaccinating the majority of difference between our online and offline experiences? the country over the past decade, so I have seen the 541 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 542 impact that a well-administered programme of vaccination When I worked in financial services, we always had to can have. There needs to be a strong counter-narrative carry out extensive “know your client” checks, as part from the Government. That has been missing in countering of an effort to prevent fraud and money laundering. both hate speech and anti-vaccination theories. The same concept should apply to the online world. In conclusion, the Government have been dragging Firm penalties should be in place for companies breaching their heels on the online harms Bill, which has been the duty of care—a modest fine will barely affect those talked about for the past three years. Urgent action is companies—and there has to be individual liability for needed to counter hate speech, extremism and conspiracy senior management in extreme cases. Again, that is not theories to keep our communities and those who need a new concept, as it already exists in financial services protection safe. We need a counter-narrative to challenge and in health and safety. those threats and we need legislative protection. We need action and we need it now, because people’s lives 3.26 pm could be depending on it. Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): 3.23 pm In my short contribution, I wish to focus on two areas: Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): The internet has the need for this legislation to have sufficient teeth and changed the world. In the past, typical hate crime took for clear definitions of what constitutes an online harm, place on the street and involved a small number of which many of my constituents have been in touch with people: the perpetrator, the victim and perhaps a handful me about. I hear the criticism and concern that an of witnesses. The internet has changed all that. Now, online harms Bill could be overreaching and damage when hate crime takes place online, it is seen and shared freedom of expression, but that should not stop the by thousands within minutes. The hatred is amplified Government going ahead and trying to make the internet and echoed in a toxic spiral that incites others to go a safer place. further and further, sometimes spilling over into real life One of the best ways the Government could do that with devastating consequences. We are seeing the impact is by providing a clearer steer as to what constitutes the amplification of hate is having in real numbers. In “harm”. As we have heard, and as I think we are all the first six months of this year, the Community Security agreed on in this House, high on the agenda must be a Trust recorded 789 antisemitic incidents across the UK. robust set of actions and consequences in place when In 2019, it recorded a record annual total of 1,813. That content relating to terrorism, child abuse and equally is just one particular kind of hate directed at one tiny abhorrent crimes is not taken down by social media minority community. companies. We can safely say that we, as Members of I have seen this at first hand, for reasons I can never Parliament, know full well what a vile place the internet quite fathom. Last year, one then Labour councillor can be, given that we are sometimes on the receiving end decided to start bombarding me with abusive messages of the most vile and horrific abuse. I was subjected to over several months, accusing me of eating babies, homophobic abuse during the election campaign in claiming I was linked to Benjamin Netanyahu, repeatedly December last year. sending me messages with images of the crucifixion and Any online harms Bill must therefore be sufficiently images of pigs, songs referring to the Wandering Jew, defined and powerful enough to consider how we can photos of himself dressed in orthodox Jewish clothing, protect people against some of the harmful content and repeatedly changing my name to Herr Largaman or available online. I wish to go through some examples Herr Larganberg. These incidents are relatively minor that have been raised with me by constituents. They compared with what others have had to face, particularly include the fact that almost a quarter of children and women and many Members of this House. I pay tribute young people who sadly lost their lives to suicide had to the Community Security Trust for the amazing work previously searched the internet for suicide-related content; it does, as well as to the Jewish Leadership Council and that one in five children had reported being victims of the Antisemitism Policy Trust, but the fact that such cyber-bullying; that social media companies were not groups have to exist underlines why this Bill is so just ignoring but refusing to take down content from important. so-called “conversion therapy”organisations, which leads We need to grasp the nettle and update our laws to so many lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people reflect the new reality of the online world, and to make to consider self-harm or even suicide; that one in 14 adults certain that this legislation is sufficiently strong and were experiencing threats to share intimate images of effective. In particular, I urge the Government to carefully themselves; that one in 10 women were being threatened consider the issue of anonymity. Many extremists hide by an ex-partner and going on to feel suicidal; that there behind a keyboard, masking their true identity to unleash was a higher prevalence of abuse among those with abuse and spread false information. That has been protected characteristics, be they women, religious facilitated by the growth of alternative social media minorities, LGBT+, black and minority ethnic or disabled platforms that anyone can access and post on anonymously. people; that there was the issue of distorted body image As a result, we have seen them turn into hotbeds of among girls; and so much more. incitement and radicalisation. Some platforms even allowed Wehave seen the unwillingness of social media companies the live-streaming of atrocities such as the murder of to act, which is why further regulation is necessary in 51 worshippers at two mosques by white supremacists this area, but it must be backed up not only by a in New Zealand. It is important that we recognise that regulator that has the teeth to act, but by proper education there is a place for anonymity, particularly for on safe and proper internet use, as regulation alone will whistleblowers, victims of domestic abuse and people not solve the problem. If the Government do get this living under authoritarian regimes, but that there is a right, they have the opportunity, probably a once-in-a- sensible compromise, which I hope the Government generation one, to make the internet a safer but no less include in the Bill. free place to be. 543 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 544

3.29 pm 3.32 pm

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): I congratulate right hon. and learned Member for Kenilworth and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southam (Jeremy Wright) on his introduction and on Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), my hon. all that he said. In my intervention I referred to the need Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and for a social media regulator, and, as the hon. Member the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) has just (Dame Diana Johnson) on securing this important debate. said, we need a regulator with teeth. We need a regulator As my right hon. and learned Friend said, there needs that actually does what it says it is going to do. That is to be parity between online and real-world abuse. Just important. because hate is fuelled online, it does not make it any The Conservative manifesto of 2015 was very clear less real or any less hurtful, so there really should be that it pertained not to social media platforms but to parity. We are taking this seriously and that needs to be pornographic websites, and it committed to protecting reflected in the law.People cannot hide behind a keyboard children from them through the provision of statutory and expect to get away with it. age verification. Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act 2017 In the brief time I have, I want to tell two stories. The made provision for that and it should have been first involves a Conservative Member of this House who implemented over a year ago. I respectfully express my was in Germany some years ago, where they happened dismay and concern that that has not happened. upon a far-right rally. The Member confronted the The non-implementation of part 3 of the Act is a neo-Nazi group and was told to read a book about how disaster for children as it needlessly exposes them to Hitler was,in fact, a British spy—a preposterous conspiracy. commercial pornographic websites, when this House has made provision for their protection from some sites. The second story is about a man named Joseph Hallett, Perhaps the Minister could give us an explanation as to who for some time has asserted his right to the throne of why the Government’s detailed defence in the judicial the United Kingdom, claiming he was cheated of his review for not proceeding with the implementation seems birth right by the illegitimate conception of King George to relate to the protection under paragraph 19, which V, a claim with no basis. He is known online as King states: John III, and his story has gained popularity among the QAnon movement, a conspiratorial group claiming special “US-based browser companies were planning on implementing knowledge of satanic paedophile rings at the heart of DNS-over-HTTPS…a new internet standard”. government. Hallett, the fake king, thinks that the royal I have great concerns about that. family is in hock to the Rothschilds, and anyone with an understanding of antisemitism will know where I am I am also troubled by the way in which the Government headed with this. He is an author, known by his second have moved from the language of requiring age verification name, Greg, and he has written about his mad theories. for pornographic websites, as referred to in their manifesto, His tome “Gifting the United Nations to Stalin” blames to the very different language of expectation. The the Jews for 9/11. What else did he write? The book Government have said: about Hitler being a British spy, recommended in person “This includes age verification tools and we expect them to by a neo-Nazi to a Member of this House. Hallett has continue to play a key role in protecting children online.” interacted with the QAnon community online. This conspiracy network captures the imagination of the They also said: unsuspecting, the naive or the bored, and drags them “Our proposals will introduce higher levels of protection for into worlds of hate. children. We will expect companies to use a proportionate range of tools including age assurance and age verification technologies The hatred is not limited to online spaces. QAnon to prevent children from accessing age-inappropriate or harmful accounts inspired the German faction known as content.” Reichsbürger—citizens of the Reich—to storm the German Parliament in August. Perhaps it was one of its members In their initial response to the online harms White that our colleague spoke to. More than 50 5G masts were Paper consultation, the Government also said: burned down in Britain following another Q conspiracy. “we expect companies to use a proportionate range of tools, In spite of this, some elected representatives in the including age assurance and age verification technologies to United States are voicing support for Q. Dealing with prevent children accessing age-inappropriate content such as the type of legal but harmful content that Q represents online pornography and to protect them from harms.” is just one of the steps that will need to be taken Quite simply, that is not enough. That should not be an through the online harms Bill. expectation; it should be a requirement. We have to have that in place. In closing, I call on my hon. Friend the Minister to assure me that the proposed duty of care will not simply The NSPCC has highlighted some worrying statistics. consist of a requirement for terms and conditions, Instagram removed 75% fewer suicide and self-harm images which the White Paper professed to be insufficient. Will between July and September 2020, industry compliance the Government consider giving a code of practice on to take down child abuse images fell by 89%, and hate crime equal status to the two proposed statutory 50% of recorded online grooming cases between April codes on terrorism and child sexual exploitation and and June this year took place on Facebook platforms. abuse, as the Antisemitism Policy Trust, the Community What conversations have the Government had to ensure Security Trust, the Jewish Leadership Council and the that Facebook and others design and deliver platforms that Board of Deputies have called for? And can the Minister put child protection services front and centre, as they confirm that the Government will ensure that all elements should be? of platforms with user-generated content will be covered? 545 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 546

3.35 pm Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) and the hon. Member for Congleton Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con): This is an incredibly (Fiona Bruce) for securing it and the Backbench Business important issue, and I agree with my hon. Friend the Committee for facilitating it. I do not have time to Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) that we should discuss and praise the various speeches that we have waste no time in introducing age verification as soon as had, but I particularly praise the right hon. and learned possible to ensure that our children can use the internet Member for Kenilworth and Southam, who opened the in a safe way and not come across content that would debate. I thought his speech was fantastic and immensely expose them to material that they are far too young to powerful; nobody could ignore what he said. Take note, see. Not only would that uphold the law, which is clear Minister: if an SNP Member and a Tory Member can in setting out the illegality of under-18s viewing such agree so wholeheartedly, actions surely must follow. content, but it would ensure that our young people’s development is not threatened and that children are We spend more and more of our time online, whether allowed to be children. we are interacting with others or are passive consumers Furthermore, we Conservatives should not forget of content—the growth of Netflix is testament to the that a year ago, we stood on a manifesto commitment latter. As we spend more time online, the harms that to introduce statutory age verification checks for were historically the preserve of the physical world are pornographic websites. This really matters and the public shifting to the online world. We have seen the growth in seem to believe so as well. Research carried out for the online financial scams and their increasing sophistication. British Board of Film Classification in 2019 concluded I have a number of constituents, as I am sure do other that 83% of parents believe there should be robust age hon. Members, who have been scammed out of tens of verification controls in place to stop children seeing thousands of pounds and lost everything, in part because commercial pornography online. If we are to respect the the scammers were able to manipulate Google keywords views of the public and uphold the public’s trust in this advertising to drive traffic to their site and begin the place, the Government must commit to enacting this scamming process. The pandemic and lockdown have policy.Statutory age verification checks for pornographic seen an increase in those scams, as the perpetrators websites is what we promised and there should be no know people are spending more time online than normal. doubt that, as Conservatives, that is what we must deliver. Equally, it is crucial that this subject is not broadened Since the start of the pandemic, the level of out by the Government to include other issues such as disinformation around vaccination and healthcare has access to pornography on social media. Having read the grown exponentially. Anti-vaxxers have already targeted debate on 7 October, I think that it is really important the newly developed vaccines that we all hope will get us that today the Minister does not try to change the out of this situation. Such disinformation campaigns subject to accessing pornographyon social media. Although have always been dangerous, particularly for young that is an important issue, it is not what was referred to people who are usually the main recipients of vaccines, in our manifesto commitment in 2019. Of course, while but now present an even bigger danger to public health. I would be more than happy if the Department also These lies—that is what they are—are propagated via brought something forward to protect children from the platforms of social media companies, which should pornography on Twitter, we must press ahead and look have a responsibility to tackle such anti-science, anti-reason at that specific issue later. There is no reason not to and anti-fact campaigns quickly and directly. It is not press ahead and deliver part 3 as soon as possible. good enough for Mark Zuckerberg and the like to In business questions last month, the Leader of the parrot free speech as if it were a “get out of jail free” House laid out the Government’sreasons not to implement card. Free speech comes with responsibilities; it does part 3, yet while I appreciated his time in answering my not give people the right to place others at risk of illness question, I did not wholly buy into his argument. I and death. therefore appeal to the Government to give the matter more thought after this debate. This is, after all, in the Just as children were most at risk from the anti-vaxxers interests of protecting children from pornography between until the pandemic hit, it is children who are most at now and the implementation of any online harms Bill. risk from online harassment and abuse, in particular As that is likely to be several years away, it is crucial that young women and girls. A recent report by Plan the Government reconsider their decision and act on International on girls’ rights in the digital world makes the wishes of the electorate. extremely depressing reading. More than a fifth of girls have received abuse on a photo or status they have Having spoken to stakeholders, I am told that the posted, and nearly a quarter have felt harassed by Government could redesignate the regulator and bring someone contacting them regularly on social media. forward an implementation date at any time and that we The net result of the abuse, harassment and pressure is could move to full-blown implementation of part 3 within that nearly half of all girls are afraid to give their a matter of months. As a family man and a committed opinions on social media, for fear of the response, and Christian, I urge the Government to enact part 3. This 13% have stopped going on social media completely to will protect our children and ensure that the Government avoid negative responses. Less than a week before the hold true to their election promise. international day for the elimination of violence against women and girls, those figures are shocking. 3.38 pm A toxic environment is stopping women and girls Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) participating in the online world on the same basis as (SNP): We have had another excellent, if curtailed, debate boys and men. It feeds into a dangerous and violent today. I thank the right hon. and learned Member for misogyny that is on the rise on social media, again Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), the hon. largely unchecked by the big tech companies until it 547 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 548

[Gavin Newlands] consumers, leaving growing numbers of people increasingly exposed to significant harms, but it did not have to be becomes a big PR issue. It is no surprise that so many this way. executive positions in those companies are occupied by In 2010, the then Labour Government saw the growth men and so few by women. of new communications technologies and undertook a For most households, online communication is now a comprehensive forward-looking review. The result was fundamental part of daily life, whether it is streaming the Communications Act 2003 and a new regulator, content or keeping in touch with family and friends on Ofcom, with the power to ensure that these issues were social media, but too often the regulation of online resolved in the public interest. That regulatory framework activities that cause harm seems to be stuck in the last had a 10-year lifespan—I know because I was head of century, when the internet was something we read about technology at Ofcom at the time. In 2012, the Conservative- in newspapers or heard about on one of our four TV led Government saw the growth of our online lives—social channels. The world has moved on dramatically in the media and big data—and did nothing. The 2012 review past two decades, but the legislative framework has not. of online harms may be the most important review that It is especially important that the victims of online we never had. It was not until April 2019 that they harms, whether it be abuse, harassment or financial finally began a consultation since which legislation has scams, feel able to report their experiences to the police been promised repeatedly and yet it comes not, leaving or other relevant authorities. If big tech will not act, it big tech in control of our online lives. falls to the Government to protect our citizens. I consider myself a tech evangelist. I believe that tech I understand that the pressures on the Government at is an engine of progress like no other. I believe that it the moment are absolutely huge, but so are the risks for can improve the lives of my constituents and enable a individuals and for society the longer these harms are more equal, more productive and more sustainable allowed to proliferate. I urge the Government to heed skills-based economy through a fourth industrial revolution, the contributions of Members right across the House but people need to be protected and empowered to take and bring forward concrete plans to introduce the Bill control of their lives online. The Government need to as soon as possible. be on the side of the people and not tech lobbyists. This 3.43 pm Government have failed us to a degree that is historically negligent, as this debate shows. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I thank the Backbench Business Committee, the right hon. Members have highlighted how Government are failing and learned Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy in their duty to safeguard children from child abuse. Wright), the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) Other Members have focused on the economic harms and my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon and the existing tech giants business model, which Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) for stepping in means that Google and Facebook have control of the where the Government have failed by bringing forward online high street, even as Amazon unfairly competes this debate and for the excellent opening contributions. the high street in our real-world towns out of existence. Indeed, we have heard excellent remarks from all parts Ninety seven per cent of UK consumers consult reviews of the House in this debate, and I am sorry that I do not when buying products online, yet investigations by Which? have time to do justice to them all—I have just noted have repeatedly exposed fake and misleading reviews. how much time I have. How will the Government address these online harms in economic terms and enable real competition? We As a chartered engineer, I spent 20 years building out have also heard about online advertising, which is the the networks that have become the internet. I am proud driver of the business model. It is unregulated, leaving of that work and of what it has become. As we have television companies at a disadvantage and driving heard, we are increasingly living our lives online, and more and more extreme content in front of viewers. My the ongoing pandemic has accelerated that. For those understanding is that the Government plan to ban all who are not digitally excluded, social media platforms advertising of unhealthy foods on the internet. Is that such as Facebook, Google, YouTube, Instagram and the case, and why will the Government not act more Twitter are all now woven into the fabric of our lives broadly to address the failings of the advertising model? and, together with the vast array of online apps for everything from video conferencing to healthy eating, As a constructive Opposition, we have proposals as they are a critical enabler of an active life for citizen, well as criticisms. Self-regulation has failed—this debate consumer and economic contributor. None the less, as has made that clear—but, robust, reasonable, rational, Members have shown so acutely, the internet can be a forward-looking and principles-based regulation can dark, challenging and inhospitable place. Content is succeed. It is shocking that in all this time, the Government curated by tech platforms that allow the spread of have not established what those principles should be. disinformation, sexual exploitation, fake news, extremism, Our ability to build back from covid depends on a hatred and other harmful content. September saw the successful vaccine, and we have had fantastic news highest number of public reports of suspected child about that recently, but, as we have heard, misinformation sexual abuse material ever received in a single month on vaccines as well as on 5G, the holocaust and so on is by the Internet Watch Foundation. On TikTok, the freely available. That is why Labour is calling for emergency #vaccinesaredangerous has had almost 800,000 views, legislation on anti-vax disinformation. Will the Government with almost no misinformation warnings. Incredibly, we commit to that? have yet to have a debate in Government time on online Labour has made it clear that we need a digital bill of harms. Hon. and right hon. Members have expressed rights and a legal duty of care to give more powers and many concerns in this place in written and oral questions protection. We need a statutory regulator for online over the years, but Government have done nothing. platforms to crack down on the harm, the hate and the Regulation has not kept pace with technology, crime or fake. We also need a public debate on what our online 549 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 550 future should look like, and that is why we launched the codes of practice on terrorist content and child sexual consultation “Our Digital Future” to build consensus exploitation and abuse. The full Government response on the underlying principles. We are now analysing the will be followed by legislation, which will be ready early over 600 responses that we have received, and we will next year. I know that there is huge concern about the publish our report soon. We are committed to eradicating time that this is taking, but we also know that it is the digital divide—indeed, the many new digital divides—as critical that we get this right, and we will do that early in a result of which marginalised peoples have become the new year. Covid emphasises the need to get on with increasingly excluded from the online world. this. We want to introduce effective legislation that Many bodies, including the NSPCC, Big Brother makes platforms more responsible for the safety of their Watch, the Carnegie UK Trust, Which? and the Institute users and underpins the continued growth of the digital of Alcohol Studies have contacted me and asked me to sector, because, as he said, responsible business is good raise their concerns. I cannot do them all justice or for business. spend time talking about algorithms, artificial intelligence, The White Paper also set out the prevalence of illegal the internet of things and all the other emerging potential content and activity online, with a particular focus on harms. Government must set out a clear plan to address the most serious of those offences, namely child sexual these online harms and give people back control of exploitation and abuse. Protecting children online from their online lives, if our lives are to flourish online CSEA is crucial. Alongside the full Government response, without fear or favour. we will publish interim codes on tackling the use of the internet by terrorists and those engaged in child sexual 3.50 pm exploitation and abuse. Wewant to ensure that companies take action now to tackle content that threatens our The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, national security and the physical safety of children, Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman): I thank my and that is what we will do. right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth I am sure that many Members here today have been and Southam (Jeremy Wright) and the hon. Member the target of online abuse or know someone who has. for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) We have heard powerful stories. Close to half of adults for securing this debate. [Interruption.] Wait for it; I in the UK say that they have seen hateful content online entirely sympathise with the point made by my hon. in the past year. I want to make it clear today that Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) in online abuse targeted towards anyone is unacceptable; business questions. The little time that the House has as with so many other areas, what is illegal offline is also spent on this enormous subject today could never have illegal online. done it justice, and it certainly does not reflect the huge importance that the Government ascribe to better protecting Online abuse can have a huge impact on people’s children and adults from online harm, while, of course, lives, and is often targeted at the most vulnerable in our balancing that against the precious freedom of expression society. Our approach to tackling online harms will that we all hold so dear. support more users to participate in online discussions by reducing the risk of bullying or being attacked on the We know that we can and must do more in this vital basis of their identity. All in-scope companies will be area. Covid-19 has emphasised how much we rely on the expected to tackle illegal content and activity, including web and on social media, and how vital it is for firms to offences targeted at users on the basis of their sex, and apply to their users as soon as possible the duty of care to have effective systems in place to deal with such that has been discussed this afternoon. Platforms can and content. My Department is working closely with the must do more to protect those users, and particularly Law Commission, which is leading a review of the law children, from the worst of the internet, which is sadly all related to abusive and offensive online communications. too common today. The Government will ensure that The commission will issue final recommendations in firms set out clearly what legal content is acceptable on 2021 that we will carefully consider. their platforms and ensure, via a powerful and independent It is important, though, to note that the aim of this regulator,that they enforce that consistently and effectively. regime is not to tackle individual pieces of content. We Codes of practice will set out what is acceptable, on will not prevent adults from accessing or posting legal topics from hate crime to eating disorders, so that the content, nor require companies to remove specific pieces networks themselves no longer make the rules. of legal content. Instead, the regulatory regime will be I pay tribute to the many fine contributions that we focused on the systems and processes implemented by have heard today, and I pay particular tribute to the companies to address harmful content. That is why it work of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member will have the extensive effect that so many Members for Kenilworth and Southam, the former Secretary of have called for today. State responsible for the White Paper. I reassure him I will deal briefly with anti-vaccination content. As that the Government’sforthcoming online harms legislation we have heard today, many Members are concerned about will establish that new duty of care; that platforms will this issue. As the Prime Minister made clear in the be held to account for the content that appears on their House yesterday, as we move into the next phase of services; and that legislation will establish a systemic vaccine roll-out, we have secured a major commitment approach that is resilient in the face of a host of from Facebook, Twitter and Google to the principle challenges, from online bullying to predatory behaviour. that no company should profit from or promote any Earlier this year, as my right hon. and learned Friend anti-vaccine disinformation, and that they will respond mentioned, we published the initial response, making to flagged content more swiftly. The platforms have also clear the direction of travel. We will publish the full agreed to work with health authorities to promote Government response to the online harms White Paper scientifically accurate messages, and we will continue to this year. We will set out further detail of our proposals, engage with them. We know that anti-vaccination content and alongside that we will publish interim voluntary could cost lives and we will not do anything that could 551 Online Harms 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Harms 552

[Matt Warman] have come together this afternoon to send a clear message about how much support there is across the Chamber allow it to proliferate. We will also continue work on the for identifying not just the problem of online harms, media literacy strategy to allow people better to understand but also the solutions. what they see online. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for what Let me briefly address a few points that were raised in he has said this afternoon. I am even more grateful for the debate. On product safety,the Office for Product Safety what I know he is going to say after this debate to his and Standards has a clear remit to lead the Government’s colleagues in government. I do not doubt for a moment efforts to tackle the sale of unsafe goods online, and my his personal commitment to this agenda, but I hope officials are working with their counterparts in other that he will be able to say to others in government that Departments to deliver a coherent pro-innovation approach there has probably never been a piece of legislation to governing digital technologies, and they will continue more eagerly anticipated by everyone, on both sides of to do so. The Home Office is engaging with the IWF, this House. Although the Government will not get a including on funding. On age verification, the Government blank cheque on this legislation—no Government could are committed to ensuring that children are protected and no Government should—they will, I think, get a from accessing inappropriate harmful content online, commitment from all parties to a proper analysis and a including online pornography. The judicial review proper supporting examination of how we might do mentioned by my right hon. and learned Friend the this effectively. With that encouragement, I hope that Member for Kenilworth and Southam prevents me from the Minister will make sure that this happens very soon. saying more, but the Queen’s Speech on 19 December Question put and agreed to. included a commitment to improve internet safety for all and to make the UK the safest place in the world to Resolved, go online. That this House recognises the need to take urgent action to reduce and prevent online harms; and urges the Government to Tackling online harms is a key priority for this bring forward the Online Harms Bill as soon as possible. Government in order to make the internet a safer place for us all. I close by reiterating how vital it is that we get this legislation right. This Government will not shy away Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Moving from ensuring that we do, and that we do so quickly. very swiftly on, I am going to suspend the House for two minutes in order to do the necessary—only 3.58 pm two minutes, because time is of the essence. Jeremy Wright: I warmly thank all Members who have contributed to this debate, and congratulate all of 4 pm them on saying so much in so little time. I hope that we Sitting suspended. 553 19 NOVEMBER 2020 International Men’s Day 554

International Men’s Day programmes to support boys into higher education? I am not keen on discriminating by gender or any other physical characteristic, but given that the Act pushes for 4.2 pm positive action based on these characteristics in order to Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): I beg to move, level the playing field, where is the support for those That this House has considered International Men’s Day. who are struggling? The figures clearly show that girls It is right that the House should consider the challenges are already outperforming boys, so why are we allowing faced by men and boys across our United Kingdom this misuse of our equalities law to exacerbate gender today,on International Men’s Day.I thank the Backbench inequality,rather than fixing it, with countless programmes Business Committee for its consideration in allocating to support girls into HE and none for boys? the time to consider this in the House on the day itself—19 November. I also thank my hon. Friend the Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con): Will my hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) for his work in Friend join me in looking forward to the exciting prospect co-sponsoring the debate, as well as those across the of the holiday activities and food programme? We House who have supported it. I have drastically shortened must do all within our power to encourage maximum my speech because our three hours have become one. participation from working-class boys in particular. That is perhaps indicative of the problem of men’s issues being pushed off the end of the agenda: it nicely Ben Bradley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. typifies the problem. I also want to give as much time to Representing a constituency and community like mine, colleagues as I can. where these lads are really struggling, taught me about the need for face-to-face contact and support for the In these challenging times, it is hugely important that most disadvantaged children. That is hugely important, we have this conversation. We face a difficult situation and I thank her for raising that. because of covid and particularly because of the economic impact. We know that there were huge spikes in male What is the point of the Equality Act 2010 if its usage suicide and depression following the 2008 economic crash is based only on what seems popular or politically due to losing employment, struggling to provide for correct, rather than on reality in order to help those families,and struggling to find purpose.It is also challenging most in need? The reality and the figures tell us that because of the general discourse that so often seems to boys need help getting into higher education, more so pervade our society that talks of male privilege, of toxic than girls, so are these interventions actually making masculinity, and of men as oppressors rather than this inequality worse? Possibly so. To be absolutely clear, positive contributors or role models. Men are talked that is not to say that we should not help girls, but about, all too often, as a problem that must be rectified. simply that selecting who to help based on physical Too often, the constant drive for equality and diversity characteristics alone is the very definition of discrimination; seeks to drag others down rather than lift everyone up. that the need for this help should be evidenced if it is to Just a few weeks ago, I spoke in Westminster Hall about comply with the law; and that boys need help too. the impact of equalities legislation, which sometimes Boys seem consistently left behind by this kind of seems to provide additional help for everyone except politically correct agenda. So long as the Equality Act men and boys.One of my great passions in the campaigning continues to be so wilfully and regularly misapplied I most regularly return to in this place is that of working- across gender, race and every other characteristic, it can class boys in areas like Mansfield and in other parts do more harm than good. We need to make clear in this of the country where there is deep and entrenched place that we should help people based on their actual disadvantage. Figures from education show that these need, and that the Act applies equally to everybody. lads are least likely of any group to do well at school, to Would it not be nice to try to help those most in need improve their lot in life, to get to university, or ever to —based not on their physical characteristics but on have the opportunity to spread their wings further what they need? Or at least to recognise that we all have afield and aspire beyond the borders of the place they equal protection under this law? Whether gay, black grew up in. Working-class white boys often seem to sit and minority ethnic, female or a straight white man, at the bottom of the pile. those are all protected characteristics. Across the board in our education system, the Men face countless challenges in our society. Three advancement of girls has been noticeable. It should be times as many men as women die by suicide, with men celebrated and recognised that girls are doing much aged 40 to 49 having the highest rates. Men report lower better in recent years. That is brilliant news, and it is the levels of life satisfaction, according to the Government’s result of countless interventions and programmes of national wellbeing survey, but are less likely to access support. However, it also needs to be recognised that, psychological therapies. Nearly three quarters of adults more often than not, boys do not have the same who go missing are men. Eighty-seven per cent. of rough encouragement. No matter the race, geography or social sleepers are men. Men are three times as likely to become class involved, girls now outperform boys throughout dependent on alcohol or drugs, are more likely to be the education system. For example, in GCSE attainment, sectioned under the Mental Health Act and are more three quarters of girls’ grades in 2019 were passes, likely to be a victim of violent crime. Of course, men compared with two thirds for boys. We have had reports also make up the vast majority of the prison population. of record-high gender gaps in university places, with These figures really put that male privilege in perspective. girls a third more likely than boys to access higher In recent years, it seems like more and more phrases education. coming into use are designed to undermine the role and That brings me back to the Equality Act 2010, which confidence of men in our society. I mentioned a few is so often misinterpreted and misunderstood. If we before—male privilege, toxic masculinity, mansplaining, know that boys are now hugely under-represented at manterrupting, the trend of spelling “woman” with an university—a growing problem—where are all the x to remove the undesirable “man”part. That is wonderfully 555 International Men’s Day19 NOVEMBER 2020 International Men’s Day 556

[Ben Bradley] Let me move on a little from the gloom and doom and speak about some positive things and actions we empowering for some, I am sure, but as I said at the can take. I particularly want to play tribute to dads, and beginning of this speech, somebody seeking equality of to all those dads who are putting their families first and fairness does not need to mean they drag down everyone doing the right thing, I say this: thank you. That is often around them. I am fairly sure that bad behaviour is not taken for granted, but it is so important. I know myself limited solely to the male of the species, nor is rudeness how difficult it is in this job to balance being a dad with gender specific. work, and try to keep myself on a level and live up to expectations. It is not easy. The outcome of this discourse and this language for many men is serious, particularly in the most disadvantaged There are countless thousands of dads out there who communities. There is such a thing as working-class have a much tougher task than me—dads who might be values—values that have lasted for many decades that struggling financially or be battling things like trying to might be considered old hat or even sexist by the see their kids, or fighting in the family courts to do the modern establishment. They include holding the door right thing. They are trying to be a role model for their open for a lady and expecting a man to stick around kids, although truthfully, we are all making it up as we and provide for his family. The idea that a man being a go along. Some dads might be trying to overcome their worker and breadwinner is a positive role model for his own challenges with mental health, work or stress, and children is still entrenched and well taught. That is not they might feel as if they have to hide that away for the to the detriment of women or to limit their ambition, sake of their families and children. but about the promotion of family, of tradition, of strong male role models. These things are important. I want to say a big thank you to good dads, and to those who are trying their best to be good dads and Having been brought up with those values, a lot of good men. That can make all the difference for our kids, men from those communities will feel lost if they are for families, and for our society. There are places and unable to find work due to our economic situation. people that dads can go to if they need help. Those are They might feel helpless, or like failures. They are far places such as the Samaritans, Rethink, the Campaign from it, but they need our support. We might also find Against Living Miserably—CALM—helpline, Safeline, that young men looking ahead and seeking their purpose or a friend or relative. It is good to talk, as they say, in life might struggle to find it when they are told that rather than sweep things under the carpet. those things they thought were virtues—their good manners, wanting to provide for their family, wanting to What more can we in this place do? For starters, we be a man’s man, wanting to go down to the football at can change the discourse here. Can we look again at the weekend and have some banter with the lads—are in equalities legislation? If we are to hold Departments fact not virtuous but toxic and doing down the women across Whitehall to account, with people dedicated to around them; those manners and the way they were ensuring—quite rightly so—that women are considered, taught to respect the women in their life are now sexist; why not do the same for men? Why have a Minister for that banter is now bullying. Women, but not one for men? Why single out one On family, rather than promoting strong male role characteristic for a special mention? Can we ensure that models, we often encourage dads to be more like mums, equality means just that, rather than positive discrimination trying to break down tradition, teaching them the opposite at the expense of certain groups, and ensure that the of what they were always told growing up and that they male is as equally protected as the female? We could do have been doing it wrong. We talk of “deadbeat” dads. worse in this place to confirm how the Equality Act We have a legal system in the family courts that seems to 2010 should be properly used. assume the guilt of many men in a relationship. We have Can we promote the role of fatherhood, and stop men being alienated from their kids. We talk more and shying away from its importance? Yes, families come in more about how desirable it is to have different kinds of all shapes and sizes. I do not wish to detract from families, with the implication that we do not need those anyone who wants to do things differently, but the strong male role models. Is it any wonder that so many positive role to be played by an active father cannot, are struggling to figure all this out? and should not, be ignored. Modern families are all It is right that people should live by their own choices, different, but you can guarantee that every one of them and be who they want to be, however they are comfortable. has involved a dad in one way or another. The vast That is true whether someone is gay or straight, black majority of families still look like a mum, dad, and kids or white, male or female, and it is equally true if what and we should not shy away from that. they want is to fulfil the traditional role of a strong Can we push forward an action plan to look at male father, provider and breadwinner—to be, for want of a suicide? We know the figures are awful, and we should better word, a bloke. I fear that we are building up huge have someone in Government accountable for delivering problems for the future when we forget the traditional that plan, including better access to mental health support. role of men—indeed, sometimes we do not just forget it; Can we review our legal system, which is not always we try to eradicate it from our society. balanced, and our family courts, which too often seem With few of life’s advantages on their side in such an to consider dads guilty until proven innocent? Parental environment, and when society seems insistent on ripping alienation seems to be increasing, and more and more the heart out of things that they experienced growing dads feel that they have been let down by the system. Can up and the things they were taught, it is no wonder that we reform the Child Maintenance Service—the bane of so many young men tragically cut their lives short. We every MP’s life, by the way—so that it is fairer to all cannot continue to talk down the role and purpose of parties and works in the interests of families? Can we young men when we should be building them up. have a long-term plan to improve available alcohol addiction 557 International Men’s Day19 NOVEMBER 2020 International Men’s Day 558 services, as those who need them are overwhelmingly male? Parliament. I hope the Government will continue to Can we boost support for new fathers, as well as mothers, look at ways to prevent this, as it would make a huge at a time when men can often feel totally helpless? positive difference to so many if it could be stamped out. Although, as the name suggests, the Prime Minister’s Finally, that leads me on to suicide. Men’s suicide has Race Disparity Unit focuses particularly on race, I am been a common theme of all the past debates on pleased that it includes looking at education, attainment International Men’s Day, and rightly so. Suicide rates and support for white working-class boys. There are among men are three times higher than for women in regional, cultural and gender-based inequalities, and the UK. The connection between relationship breakdown the challenge faced by boys in education cannot be and suicide risk in western countries has been studied, denied. The figures show a clear picture of increasing and the data from those studies indicates that, numbers of left-behind boys who grow into troubled unsurprisingly, relationship breakdown elevates suicide young men seeking purpose. That is a huge challenge risk in both sexes, and more so for men. None of the for our wider society, and I hope we can build on that studies apparently investigated the specific effect on the work and consider it in more detail. I will end with that, likelihood of suicide of fathers’ separation from their Madam Deputy Speaker, so as to give colleagues as children, despite charities reporting that it is the much time as I can. I thank the Minister for her overwhelming source of distress. It is quite clear to me consideration today, and I look forward to listening to that we need to do a lot more to ensure that fathers are the thoughts of colleagues across the House. not stopped from seeing their children, to save lives. In these covid lockdown times, it is too easy to imagine Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): We how this will be causing even more mental health problems will have to rush into this with a time limit of three and, unfortunately, more suicides. minutes for Back-Bench speeches, and there will not be much time for Front-Bench speeches either. 4.17 pm Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): 4.14 pm As someone who used to work in the national health service, I would like to focus on the health challenges Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): As I have said before, faced by men, and I will look at three primary areas in there are many areas where men are disproportionately the short time available to me. affected that do not get enough focus in the House. This The first is in relation to the coronavirus pandemic. debate should be about highlighting those areas.I commend Public Health England’sreview demonstrated that, despite my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) making up only 46% of diagnosed cases, 60% of deaths for his speech. Unsurprisingly, I completely agree with are among men, 70% of admissions to intensive care are him, particularly with regard to the points he made men and working-age males diagnosed with covid-19 about the disadvantage and poor outcomes, especially are twice as likely to die. The Minister is doing cross- in education, of white working-class boys—something departmental work to understand the risk factors associated that the politically correct lobby has brushed under the with this disease, so I hope she will continue to look carpet for too long. into the reasons why that disparity exists. Just this week, Bradford Council has consulted on its The second health risk I would like to focus on is latest equality plan. It has set targets for people in jobs, cancer. Prostate cancer is the most common cancer including one for 65% of its top 5% of employees to be among men in the UK and the second most common female. I do not believe in quotas and targets. I believe cause of death, with around 12,000 deaths in 2017. In that each job should be awarded on merit and merit addition, since the early 1990s, testicular cancer incidence alone, but even if we go along with all this so-called rates have risen by nearly 24% among men in the UK. equality, where on earth is the equality in that target? Great strides have been made in this area, including in The leader of Bradford Council represents a ward in my survival rates—particularly for prostate cancer, which constituency with a high proportion of white working-class has gone from 76% of people dying within 10 years in people in it, yet she is completely silent about that in her the ’70s to just 16% now—but there is still a lot more to so-called equality plan, despite the fact that she must do. The NHS long-term plan has an ambitious cancer know the disadvantage they face. screening commitment, but that must be coupled with My hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield brilliantly work to tackle the stigma around men’shealth, particularly defended good dads, and I want to echo that message. I male cancers, and too many men leaving it too late know of men who have had their lives ruined because of before they seek help. a relationship breakdown, which has needlessly led to a As Members have already outlined, one of the most whole family breakdown and, in some cases, a mental chilling statistics comes in the form of mental health breakdown, too. I have talked about parental alienation and suicide, because it truly is a terrible thing that the before and do not apologise for mentioning it again. It single biggest cause of death in men under 45 in the is quite simply abuse, and the many people who have United Kingdom is men taking their own lives. Men written to me with heartbreaking personal stories show account for about three quarters of suicide deaths registered how this happens all too often. It is abuse against the in England and Wales. Middle-aged men in the UK alienated parent—not just men—and against the sons have the highest average suicide rate of any age group. and daughters of the parent. It also affects a whole host I again draw attention to the good work of the NHS of people in the wider family. long-term plan, which is working to design a new mental I am pleased that the Government have taken some health strategy and improvement programme, which of my points on board and included parental alienation will focus on suicide prevention. Ministers say that as an example of abuse in the draft statutory guidance reducing suicides remains an NHS priority, and I urge for the Domestic Abuse Bill, which is going through them to ensure that is the case, because it cannot be 559 International Men’s Day19 NOVEMBER 2020 International Men’s Day 560

[Elliot Colburn] 4.23 pm right for the most common cause of death for anyone of Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): First, I thank my hon. any age, gender, sexuality, race, religion or creed to be Friend the Member for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) for from them taking their own life. I urge the Government securing this vital debate. I agree with his comments to do all they can to ensure that these terrible health about the underperformance of white boys from statistics are consigned to the dustbin of history as soon underprivileged backgrounds in the school system. The as possible. facts speak for themselves and they cannot be disputed. I think it right that the Education Committee, on which I serve, is currently looking at that issue in depth. That 4.20 pm is not to say we are not going to look at other issues, but Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con): It is a why should we not look at that one issue as well? pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for I want to talk about men’s mental health, which is Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn), who made getting more attention now than it ever has. The simple a very informative speech. He has touched on many of fact is that many men who struggle with their mental the points that I wish to raise, but in beginning my health do not feel comfortable talking about it. They comments, I, too, commend my hon. Friend the Member might think deep down it is a sign of weakness—of for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) for highlighting these issues. course they are wrong, it is not—but they should feel He has been an ardent campaigner on this area since he comfortable to talk about it. Awareness of mental health was elected to the House and beforehand. These are is greater than it has ever been, because there is not a issues that we just have to talk about. single person in this country whose mental health has I want to focus my comments on three areas in not been impacted to some extent. I think even about particular: domestic abuse,mental health and the attainment my own father. If I had spoken to him a year or two ago gap, which my hon. Friend articulated so well. I pay about mental health, he probably would have said, tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for the Home “Man up—stiff upper lip,” and taken a very masculine Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Louth approach to it, whereas he is 75 years old and has had to and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins) for piloting through shield himself, and when I talked to him about this very the Domestic Abuse Bill, which is currently awaiting issue not long ago, I never thought that I would hear it Second Reading in the other place. It will ensure that all but my dad was talking about his mental health. That is victims have the confidence to report their experiences a good thing, and we should encourage more of it. of domestic abuse. There are great challenges, and the pandemic has We know that 786,000 men have reported being victims brought this issue to light more than ever. Many of the of domestic abuse. Looking at the numbers, we find things that men rely on, such as going to watch the that only just over half of men will report domestic football, fishing and golf, have not been possible,particularly abuse, whereas 88% of women are prepared to do so. during this second lockdown. I wish, though, to highlight There are 37 refuges and safe houses with 204 spaces. something brilliant that is happening in Chantry in Of those 204 available spaces, only 40 are dedicated for Ipswich. Over the summer, the local landlady, Penny, men. In Greater London, there are no spaces for men spoke to me about the problem of men’s mental health needing refuge from domestic abuse. The Respect Men’s and how she wanted to do something about it. After Advice Line has said that some male victims of domestic a small period—two to three months—she now has abuse have reported sleeping in cars, in tents or in the 33 members of her men’s mental health support group gardens of their relatives to seek refuge from their in Chantry, including Rex Manning, a professionally abusers. trained chef from the local area. They have secured an As someone who has seen domestic abuse at first allotment at the Robin Drive allotments, and all the hand, the ability to escape is fundamental to ensuring men go down there, become members and talk. Even if that people survive. We need to be doing more to ensure they do not feel comfortable talking about their mental that there is provision, because there is clearly a gap, health directly, engaging in something like that, which is although I pay tribute to those organisations supporting so good for their wellbeing, really brings people and the the victims and survivors of domestic abuse. whole community together. They make produce with My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and the vegetables, and Rex collects it all together and they Wallington articulated the mental health issues perfectly. all eat it together in the local pub. Some 75% of suicide deaths in England and Wales are Men’s mental health is a very challenging issue, and it men. We need to tackle that, and we must do so across is right that we have this debate, but there is a great the board. It is not right. We need to look at the opportunity here. The pandemic has highlighted mental fundamental underlying issues that lead to these deaths. health more than ever before, but talking about our I do not want to repeat the stats that my hon. Friend mental health is not a sign of weakness; it is something read out, but I round off my comments by saying this: that should be encouraged. It is right that we have this ultimately, this is about ensuring that we all have access debate today, and I commend my hon. Friend the to the services and support that we need. We should Member for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) for securing it. value everyone as an individual—as the person they are at their core, irrespective of gender, what they look like or where they come from. This debate highlights that, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): An and my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield has hon. Gentleman has, unusually, withdrawn from the drawn that out once again. I pay tribute to him, and I debate, which gives us a tiny bit of extra time. I am pay tribute to the fantastic work being done to support therefore going to raise the limit on Back-Bench speeches men in the areas I have highlighted. to four minutes. 561 International Men’s Day19 NOVEMBER 2020 International Men’s Day 562

4.26 pm 4.29 pm Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): Thank you James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): International for the good news, Madam Deputy Speaker. Men’s Day has been an annual event since 2010, and the I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield UK has the most events of its kind anywhere in the (Ben Bradley) for securing this very important debate. world. It is overseen by the Men and Boys Coalition, a Weboth understand the acute disadvantages and difficulties registered charity including over 100 organisations, —ranging from health and education to incarceration academics and professionals who believe in a society and suicide—experienced by men in our region of the that values the wellbeing of men and boys. UK. I welcome the opportunity to draw the House’s There are some positive themes: it makes a positive attention to this unacceptable inequality and to stand difference to wellbeing, it raises awareness and funds for up for men and boys in my constituency. charities supporting men and boys and it promotes a We do not talk about men’s mental health enough, positive conversation about men, manhood and masculinity, and toxic masculinity is a severe problem. Tragically, all of which is a good thing. There are some serious suicide remains the biggest killer for men under the age themes,too.In 1998, my very closest friend sadly committed of 45. Research suggests that men who are less well-off suicide. It was a devastating event for me, his family and and living in the most deprived areas are up to 10 times all of his friends. I am well versed in the mess left more likely to die by suicide than more well-off men in behind. We must end the stigma around men’s mental affluent areas—a grim statistic that is relevant to areas health and commend the truth that it is okay not to feel of high deprivation such as mine in Rother Valley, with okay. The simple answer is: please seek help. the likes of Maltby and Dinnington. This must be International Men’s Day is also about the challenges addressed. faced by men and boys at all stages of education, Beyond the realms of health, many men suffer from shorter life expectancies, infertility and workplace death. low attainment and reduced opportunities at every stage It is about the challenges faced by the most marginalised of life. This is of particular concern to me in Rother men in society and homeless boys in care. It is about Valley.At school, there is an old adage that girls consistently inner cities and black and white working-class males. It outperform boys at GCSE level, and they have done so is also about male victims of violence, the challenges for the past 30 years. At higher education level, more than faced by men as parents, and survivors of sexual abuse, 67,000 fewer men than women accept places at university—a rape and domestic abuse. That is all relevant. huge gap of 35%. After 10 years of Government reforms, In this era of identity politics, it is becoming increasingly standards are increasing, but for areas such as mine in popular to ridicule men who display traits of traditional Rother Valley, this cannot come soon enough. We must masculinity such as self-reliance, personal responsibility, continue to put pressure on schools, universities and discipline and courage—even fatherhood. Guess what? companies to do more for working-class boys and men. I do not subscribe to that, because all men matter. Only this week, I read that in 2016 SOAS did not accept Indeed, the UK prides itself on being among the top any white working-class boys into the university. That is meritocracies in the world. Equality of opportunity is a disgrace. something we absolutely must strive for, so it is about It is worth noting that women in Rother Valley are in black and white, gay and straight, male and female. full support of empowering our local men. They see the Everyone has a role, and no one should feel ashamed of everyday struggles of their fathers, brothers, sons, uncles, who they are. It is not about men as a comparative grandfathers and friends. They do not have the reductive species; it is simply about drawing attention to particular mindset—pushed by many in the liberal metropolitan issues affecting men. elite of the Labour party—in which men as a whole Lastly, I have some quick stats. In 2018, almost 5,000 species are blamed for gender inequality. Instead, they men took their own lives at a rate of 13 a day—17.2 per recognise that while women still face substantial social 100,000—which is the highest rate since 2013. Men also inequality—and they absolutely do—so do many of make up 75% of suicides. Girls are now 14% more likely our men. For example, 79,000 people are in prison, and than boys to pass exams in English and maths, while 96% of them are male—a shocking statistic. These men boys are permanently excluded more than three times cannot be blamed for having privilege that they simply as often, with 6,000 permanent exclusions. I think much do not possess. of that is down to attention deficit hyperactivity disorder I am in full agreement with my hon. Friend the and to autism spectrum disorder, which is a separate Member for Mansfield on this point: I want to lift up issue in itself but one we need to look at closely. Of the everyone, men and women, rather than dragging them 79,000 people in prison, 96% are male. So we have got down. This fits with my persistent campaign for Rother work to do. Valley to be levelled up across the board, in all areas and all sectors, but especially for all people. Growing up 4.33 pm in Maltby or Dinnington should not mean that a person has a lesser chance of succeeding professionally, and it Dean Russell (Watford) (Con): It is estimated by the should not mean that they lack access to high-quality World Health Organisation that globally 800,000 people services and facilities. Unfortunately, too many men die every year due to suicide. In the UK, three quarters and boys in Rother Valley tell me exactly this: they feel of suicides are of men. I question why it is that men abandoned, left behind and forgotten. It is in everybody’s suffer the most with suicide and think it is often down interests that we raise our men’s aspirations and help to the challenges in society and how we, as a male them to use their inherent talents to reach their full species, do not ask for help. potential. I firmly believe that this Government are During my maiden speech, I spoke about the concept doing so for men, boys and everyone, and especially for of HOPE being an acronym standing for Help One Person those in Rother Valley. Everyday.Sometimes, that one person has to be ourselves, 563 International Men’s Day19 NOVEMBER 2020 International Men’s Day 564

[Dean Russell] Clearly, the covid-19 pandemic has hugely impacted everyone’s lives. Many of our constituents now face but it so hard to ask for help when that is seen as a insecurity of employment and financial hardship alongside weakness. I say to anyone out there right now who is having to deal with restrictions on seeing loved ones. suffering that it is not a weakness to ask for help and Never before in our lifetimes have we experienced a support; it is a strength. When I look at the social media pandemic that effectively shut down society, closed narrative and the often divisive debate around masculinity businesses and required us all to stay at home. I worry and men, I draw on my belief that we cannot heal about everyone’s mental health at the moment. I know divisions by being divisive, we cannot tackle hatred by that continued lockdowns and restrictions can be incredibly being hateful and we cannot show our strength only by tough, especially as we are now heading towards the belittling those who show weakness. The debate that we winter months, full of colder days and darker evenings. have in this Chamber today should not be limited to the Today’s debate is a good opportunity to focus on men’s time we have here. It should be a societal debate about mental health. We know, as others have said, that men how we tackle these big challenges in society. How do are typically less likely to reach out for help with their we look at tackling the stigma, not just through medical mental health. Just over three out of four suicides are and NHS support but through the narrative that we by men, and suicide is the biggest cause of death among provide as politicians and members of the public. men under 35. Men are nearly three times more likely We need to listen to each other. Sometimes when than women to become alcohol dependent and men are I look at the world, especially through the lens of social less likely to access psychological therapies than women. media, the web and the media, I feel as if we are in a Indeed, only 36% of referrals to psychological therapies world full of those shouting and it makes me ask who are for men. are those who are listening. Let us all listen to what I know from personal experience that conversations people are saying. Let us not consider men to be the about mental health can be tough, sensitive, private and enemy. We are all part of the important fabric of society. awkward, but they are so important especially at the We all have differences. To anyone who is struggling moment. With further restrictions and lockdowns, we right now, who is thinking the worst thoughts, remember are all more isolated than ever. A survey in April showed that you are unique. You are one of 7 billion on this that one in four UK adults had feelings of loneliness planet and you are the only version of you. You need to compared with just one in 10 before the pandemic. continue your story. You need to be here for one more Young people aged between 18 and 24 were most likely day; just give it another few minutes, another hour. Just to experience loneliness since lockdown began; indeed, give yourself a bit more time to find out why you are before lockdown one in six said that they felt lonely. really here. The power of your story, of overcoming it, Since lockdown, young people are almost three times will make a difference to others and to those around more likely to experience loneliness, with almost half you and, by God, it will make a difference to your feeling that way. At a time when more of us are feeling family and friends. If they do not have you here tomorrow, isolated and lonely, it is important to reach out to loved if they do not have the stories of the difficult times as ones. A simple text, phone call or FaceTime can make a well as the joyful times, we all lack because of that. world of difference. So I ask all of us: please ask for help if you need it In terms of men’s mental health, there still exists that and ask others if they need help. Remember it is okay stigma around acknowledging that you are struggling not to be okay, as my hon. Friends have said. It is also and seeking the help we need. For example, in 2016 a okay to ask others if they are okay. It is okay to say to survey conducted by opinion leader Men’s Health Forum them, “Are you really okay?” Ask them more than once. found that 34% of men were ashamed to take time off That second or third time might be the chance for them work for mental health concerns, compared with 13% for to open up in a way that they never have before. I am so a physical injury. Some 38% of men were concerned pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield that their employer would think badly of them if they (Ben Bradley) organised the debate today because without took time off work for a mental health concern, compared it we may not have these voices. Today we might change with 26% for a physical injury. The hon. Member for someone’s life. If, off the back of today, we stop just one Mansfield touched on this, but phrases like “man up” person from committing suicide, even if it is over the and “toughen up” only reinforce the stereotypes that next hundred years, that will have made this debate men should be stoic and face such problems alone. That worth while. is dangerous rhetoric and it prevents men from pursuing help. I am really glad that all hon. Members who have 4.37 pm spoken today have put that on the record. David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): It is a pleasure It is important that men come together and support to follow the hon. Member for Watford (Dean Russell). one another. That is why I am such a passionate supporter I have always thought since he arrived in the House that of Men’s Sheds, as well as the Menself group in my he was an incredibly thoughtful person, as that speech constituency led by Jim Malcolmson. Weshould encourage typified. Thank you. men to acknowledge that the stresses of this unprecedented I am grateful to the hon. Member for Mansfield public health crisis will naturally have an impact on our (Ben Bradley) for securing today’s debate. I take this mental health. Whether due to a loss of employment, opportunity to welcome to the Dispatch Box my hon. financial insecurity or just missing our loved ones, I Friend the Member for Warrington North (Charlotte think we would all agree that this is a very tough time Nichols). I understand that it is her debut at the Dispatch for everyone. My message to everyone, not just to men Box. She is a fellow member of the armed forces but men in particular, is please reach out to your loved parliamentary scheme, so when I finally shut up and sit ones. Let them know that you are always there to listen down I will certainly be cheering her on. and take care of one another, because this too will pass. 565 International Men’s Day19 NOVEMBER 2020 International Men’s Day 566

4.41 pm models or closer support and attention to alternative Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab): It is a teaching methods, it is a real concern. The literacy gap pleasure to respond to this debate on behalf of Her between boys and girls peaks at 16, when children are Majesty’s Opposition. As shadow Minister for Women beginning to consider their choices for life after school. and Equalities, I am conscious that we should seek not Men are still more likely to be victims of violent to pit the problems of men and women against each crime in the UK—men are nearly twice as likely as other but to aspire to raise outcomes where one is below women to be a victim of violent crime—and among the other. children, boys are more likely than girls to be victims of We have heard a number of important contributions violence, while more than two thirds of murder victims in this debate. First, I congratulate the hon. Members are male. It is worth mentioning the male victims of for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) domestic violence, and the statistics show that they are on securing the debate through the Backbench Business less likely to speak out or confide in somebody about it. Committee. We see that it is now truly an annual They must not be forgotten, as was mentioned in a occasion after a year’s absence, as it fell during the powerful contribution to the debate by the hon. Member election campaign last year.Having read, through Hansard, for West Bromwich West (Shaun Bailey). previous iterations of this debate, I am reassured that As the days and nights get colder and wetter, it is we are continuing to emphasise these important issues, sombre to think of the thousands of rough sleepers on but concerned to note that they still need to be raised. our streets. The Government’s actions earlier in the year showed that it is possible to eliminate rough sleeping, The ongoing tragedy of male suicides has continued, but now, once again, there are huge numbers of people with the rate in England and Wales of 16.9 deaths per forced to choose between a cold winter on the streets of 100,000, the highest since 2000. That remains in line our country or the threat of catching covid in an with the rate in 2018, and makes up about three quarters overcrowded shelter. Government statistics state that of suicides. Males aged 45 to 49 still have the highest 86% of rough sleepers in England are male. I hope the age-specific suicide rate. A number of colleagues have Minister can say what will be done to end this awful mentioned charities that work hard in this field, so I situation. commend the work of CALM, the Campaign Against Living Miserably, Rethink, Mind and the other Finally, it is worth remembering that today is organisations that have been highlighted. I would also International Men’s Day, and we should consider the like to remind all Members that the Samaritans can be problems that men and boys face around the world, where phoned at any time, day or night, on 116 123. they die on average six years before women, thousands are forced into becoming child soldiers, and gay men in The same messages are given every year and are ever particular are all too often oppressed with threats of more relevant in 2020, with all its stress and fear. Men violent death. Once again, I thank all of the speakers, should feel able to talk about their problems with and I hope that in next year’s debate we will be able to friends or professionals. They do not have to do it in report on progress in these many important areas. public like hon. Members have today, but society must accept and embrace a more open understanding of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Before men’s feelings and concerns. I include in that men who the Minister starts, I must commend the House. I said may be gay, bisexual or transgender who feel alone or we would have to rush through this and I was expecting scared about their very identities. They must be more the Minister to be on her feet with only five minutes to supportive of each other. I note the news today that the spare, but the House has been so disciplined, speeches Government are ending the £4 million funding for have been so to the point, precise, moving and clever, that anti-LGBT bullying in our schools. That is a real step I hope other people will learn that brevity is indeed the backwards that will prolong harm for too many young soul of wit. I am not going to mention the fact that very boys. few women have taken part in the debate this afternoon. I cannot join Movember, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I praise the Members who are doing it this year and 4.47 pm hope that they may continue to brighten the spotlight The Minister for Equalities (Kemi Badenoch): I am on men’s health. Most obviously, covid has had a pleased to be standing at the Dispatch Box on International disproportionate fatal impact on men. As further research Men’s Day. I thank the Backbench Business Committee unearths more about what is still a very new virus, we for granting a debate on this important subject, and I may find out why. On prostate cancer, the second-biggest thank all the hon. and right hon. Members who have killer of men worldwide, I encourage men to discuss it made heartfelt contributions. I also welcome the hon. with their doctors at age 50, and black men or men with Member for Warrington North (Charlotte Nichols) to a family history of prostate cancer should discuss it her position as shadow Minister. at 45. On testicular cancer, men should know how to International Men’s Day is an opportunity to celebrate test themselves. It is not taboo to look these things up. men and boys in all their diversity and to shine a Men are more likely to die prematurely than women, spotlight on the issues that affect men—from shared including of diseases that are considered preventable. parenting to health and wellbeing. I think it is sad that, Please do not be too scared to ask questions for fear of on a day like this, it seems to be mainly Members on the some toxic male expectations or image. I thank the hon. Government side of the House who felt interested enough Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) to speak. I recognise that the shadow spokespeople have for raising these health issues. been here, but it does highlight the fact that this is We have rightly heard today about the challenges of an issue that many people believe is not important boys’ educational attainment and the need for schools enough to speak on. I hope that next time the hon. and the Department for Education to address this. Lady will speak to her colleagues across the House for Whether this means more male teachers, more male role this reason. 567 International Men’s Day19 NOVEMBER 2020 International Men’s Day 568

David Linden: I just put it on the record that the very understandable during these uncertain and unusual restrictions on virtual participation may be why there times to be experiencing distress or anxiety,or to be feeling are fewer Members taking part in this debate. low, and we know that this affects many men. Those are common reactions to the difficult situation we all face. Kemi Badenoch: I understand that, but this is not the Anyone experiencing distress, anxiety or feeling low can only debate that has taken place today, and others have visit the Every Mind Matters website and gov.uk for been very well attended. I am afraid I do not accept that advice and tailored, practical steps to support wellbeing position and, like I said, I hope that at the next International and manage mental health during this pandemic. Men’s Day debate we will see many more Members participating. Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): Will the Government This Government are committed to levelling up also consider research by the Samaritans that talks very opportunity and ensuring fairness for all. As Minister much about middle-aged men who are often missed by for Equalities, I want to ensure no one is left behind, community-based support when facing a mental health regardless of their sex or background. Both men and crisis, which can often lead to suicide? Perhaps the women in the UK benefit from our having some of the Government could factor that in, so that those people, strongest equality legislation in the world. The equality who are not as visible as those most at risk, can also be hub will consider sex, along with factors such as race, supported at times of crisis. sexual orientation, geography and socioeconomic background, so we can ensure we are levelling up across Kemi Badenoch: I completely agree with the hon the country. This will support data-driven policy to Gentleman on that. We know that some men are less reduce disparity across the Union and make the UK the likely than women to seek help with their mental health best place to live, work and grow a business. Levelling and that some can be reluctant to engage with health up is the mission of this Government, and every one of and other support services, and it is right that he us should be free and able to fulfil our potential. highlights that. That is why I say to every man that the My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and NHS is open for business—we really want to stress that. Wallington (Elliot Colburn) mentioned the coronavirus, I urge any man, whatever their age or background, who which, as we all know, is the biggest challenge the UK is struggling to speak to a GP to seek out mental health has faced in decades, and we are not alone. All over the support delivered by charities or the NHS. Services are world we are seeing the devastating impact of this still operating and it is better to get help early. disease. We know that men have been disproportionately This week, the NHS launched its “Help us help you” impacted by covid and that, after age, sex is the second campaign, which is relevant to the point the hon. Gentleman largest single risk factor. However, not all men are the just raised. It is a major campaign to encourage people same and not all men will be affected in the same way. who may be struggling with common mental health My report on covid disparities showed, for example, illnesses to come forward for help through NHS talking that the job someone does, where they live, who they therapies, also known as improving access to psychological live with and their underlying health all make a huge therapies, which are a confidential service run by fully difference to their risk of covid-19. We recognise how trained experts. I am sure the Minister for Patient important it is that each individual understands how Safety,Mental Health and Suicide Prevention will consider different factors and characteristics combine to influence his point and the request made by my hon. Friend the their personal risk. The chief medical officer commissioned Member for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) for an action plan an expert group to develop a risk model to do just that, on men’s mental health and suicide. I also wish to remind and the Department of Health and Social Care is people that the “Help us help you”campaigns have sought working at pace on how to apply the model. to increase the number of people coming forward if As well as its impact on lives, covid has had a huge they are worried about cancer symptoms, including impact on Britain’s livelihoods, which give us pride and those for testicular and prostate cancer. My hon. Friend a way to support our families. Of course, men and the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland) spoke women do not exist separately and in isolation; we are movingly about his friend who tragically lost his life and part of families, businesses and our communities, which urged men to seek the help they need, as did the hon. is why the Government’s support is targeted at those Member for Glasgow East (David Linden). The current most in need and looks at how issues are impacting on campaign will run throughout the winter to ensure that individuals, not homogenous groups, so that we ensure men feel able to come forward to get tested and treated a fair recovery for everyone. As a Treasury Minister, I earlier. am particularly proud of our comprehensive package The hon. Member for Warrington North asked about to protect jobs, which the International Monetary Fund rough sleeping, and I want to answer her question on highlighted as one of the best examples of co-ordinated what the Government are doing. On 18 July, we launched action globally. As this House has heard time and the Next Steps accommodation Programme, which makes again, we have given unprecedented support through funding available to support local authorities and their the coronavirus job retention scheme and the self- partners to prevent previous rough sleepers returning to employment income support scheme to ensure that the streets. The programme comprises £161 million to people can get the support they need, especially those in deliver 3,300 units of longer-term move-on accommodation sectors most affected by covid-19. in 2020-21 and £105 million to pay for immediate support My hon. Friends the Members for Watford to ensure that people do not return to the streets. (Dean Russell), for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) and for West On 17 September, we announced local authority Bromwich West (Shaun Bailey) spoke passionately about allocations for the short-term funding aspect of this mental health. The challenges this year have no doubt programme. Some £91.5 million was allocated to taken their toll on many people’s mental wellbeing. It is 274 councils in England to help vulnerable people housed 569 International Men’s Day19 NOVEMBER 2020 International Men’s Day 570 during the pandemic, and recently, on 29 October, we Friend that the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, announced allocations to local partners to deliver longer- which I sponsor, is currently studying how we will term move-on accommodation. More than 3,300 new improve outcomes for these boys in the towns and long-term homes for rough sleepers across the country regions of our country. have been approved, and that is backed by Government I also paytribute to the equalities Whip—the Comptroller investment of more than £150 million. As the House of Her Majesty’s Household, my hon. Friend the Member can see, quite a lot is being done on this issue, which we for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer), who, as a take very seriously. Whip, rarely gets chance to speak these days—for his I would like to close by taking a moment to celebrate successful campaign to get the HPV cancer jab given to the contribution that men and boys make to our society.My men and boys. We are very proud of the work that he hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Alexander has done. Stafford) talked about men and boys in his constituency In conclusion, I am honoured to have taken part in feeling like they have been forgotten. It therefore seems today’s debate on International Men’s Day to mark the opportune to celebrate our fathers and our sons, our progress that we have made and to highlight what more brothers and our friends, and, indeed, our colleagues needs to be done. this week and the progress we have made in supporting them under this Government. 4.58 pm For example, since 2010, we have seen the introduction of shared parental leave, allowing mothers and fathers Ben Bradley: I thank the Minister for her response to share the highs and, indeed, the lows of caring for and for the work that she is doing to get the equalities their new babies. The Government are also committed agenda right, and particularly the hub that she mentioned, to making it easier for fathers to take paternity leave, which includes socioeconomic and geographical factors as set out in our 2019 manifesto. Subject to further for the first time—I raised this in Westminster Hall a consultation, we are committed to introducing measures few weeks ago, and I am very pleased about that. I to make flexible working the default for men and women welcome the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for unless employers have a good reason not to. As someone Warrington North (Charlotte Nichols), to her place who came back from maternity leave only this year, I and I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David can tell you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that my husband Linden) for talking about reaching out to our loved was able to take paternity leave and it made my return ones at this very difficult time. to work much easier,having two ministerial responsibilities I say a huge thank you to my hon. Friend the Member as well as my work as a constituency MP, so this is a for Shipley (Philip Davies). I am very sorry that he got policy that I am very passionate about. only three minutes to speak, because he is as responsible as I am for securing this debate. It is a great shame. He Philip Davies: That is all very well, but will the gets half the credit at least that colleagues have paid to Minister also look at making it easier for absent fathers me in the Chamber. I thank all colleagues for their to have access to their children and speed up the process thoughtful contributions. I do not have time to go through the family courts, which is often a tortuous one through them all but others have, and there were some that causes so much heartache for so many fathers? very moving, heartfelt ones. International Men’s Day is one day that we celebrate Kemi Badenoch: My hon. Friend is right and, yes, annually, but this is not a conversation just for one that is something we can look into. I recognise the work day. It is a chance to raise great role models and huge that he has done to raise awareness of fathers who feel a challenges—things that we can do every day in this sense of alienation from losing access to their children. House in the very privileged position that we hold. The He will be pleased to see that the draft statutory guidance public discourse—the negative attitudes—that I mentioned to be issued under the Domestic Abuse Bill currently pervades every day. The support that men and boys recognises parental alienation as an example of coercive need is needed every day and is available every day. We or controlling behaviour, no doubt in part due to his should all be helping men to reach out and seek help, representations on this issue. I thank him and my hon. and continuing to raise the issues that we have discussed Friend the Member for Mansfield again for their tireless today—many of which are around mental health, suicide work on these issues and for securing this debate. and our services—at every opportunity in this House, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for not just on International Men’s Day, but when this day Mansfield for his vigorous campaign to support boys has long gone. from white working-class backgrounds. He raised many Question put and agreed to. issues about the way the Equality Act is interpreted— protecting groups when, actually, what it protects is Resolved, characteristics, which we all have. Some of his questions, That this House has considered International Men’s Day. especially about whether we should have a Minister for men, are above my pay grade, but I will definitely raise Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): What this with the Minister for Women and Equalities and an excellent debate—and accomplished in less than the Prime Minister on his behalf. I assure my hon. one hour. 571 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Independent Reconfiguration Panel 572

Independent Reconfiguration Panel of time to their journey makes no sense, and that community-led care is essential and should be kept in Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House the community? do now adjourn.—(David Duguid.) Siobhain McDonagh: I agree with the hon. Member. 5 pm In the plan, it is assumed that mothers in my area want home births. That is a discriminatory assumption Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I that is completely against their right to choose. It takes have lost count of the number of times that I have maternity services away from the mothers who are most spoken in this House about the future of St Helier likely to deliver a low-weight baby and mothers who are Hospital. Time and again, the hospital has been hurled less likely to want a home birth. It also breaks up the head first into turbulence, with countless consultations continuity of care, with pre and post-natal services coated in fancy branding repeatedly asking my constituents being delivered at one hospital and the birth at another. whether they want their hospital to keep its A&E, The programme ignores the intrinsic link between old critical care and maternity services. The latest plan— age and life expectancy in pointing to the higher number almost laughably named “Improving Healthcare Together” of elderly people in Belmont when deciding where need proposes to downgrade both Epsom Hospital and St Helier is greatest. The sobering reality is that Mitcham has a Hospital, moving all acute services south to leafy, wealthy far lower life expectancy than Belmont—nine years Belmont. The purpose of this debate is to look at lower, in fact. There are more elderly residents in Belmont whether the Independent Reconfiguration Panel was because, quite simply, its residents live longer. To experts, actually independent when it came to a decision not to it is yet another example of the Tudor Hart law, or the look into these proposals. inverse care law as it is also known: the understanding The panel is a little known but hugely important in health academia that the areas in greatest health body that provides checks and balances to the plans of receive the most health investment. Or as my mum, one of the most powerful institutions in our country: herself a nurse, would say, “Much gets more.” the NHS. The NHS employs as many people as the red The reality is that the Minister and his Department army, and some would argue that it is built around the are being asked to commit £500 million of scarce NHS same command and control principles—that is, decisions resources to move acute services to one of the richest are made and everyone is expected to row in behind and healthiest areas in London, at the expense of one of them. Communities are hugely affected by proposed the most deprived. Surely the Minister can see that that NHS changes. As such, their representatives in local is wrong, if not from a health perspective, then from a government have the power to consider whether they financial one. The plans require 22% more capital than agree with a hospital reorganisation. If they do not, the option of rebuilding where health needs are greatest. they can refer it to the Secretary of State, who has the Improving St Helier would have a higher return on power to refer it to an independent panel of experts. investment, posing far less risk with a significantly In the case of the “Improving Healthcare Together” lower capital requirement. Our economy is being decimated programme, my argument is not that the chair of the by the virus. Can the Minister not see that this proposal panel, Professor Sir Norman Williams, is not a man goes completely against Treasury guidance and value with a hugely important and successful medical career for money? who has brought benefits to thousands, or that he has This was a devastating decision before the pandemic, not made a huge contribution to the NHS. My argument but have we learned nothing from coronavirus? How is simply that he could not be regarded as independent, can it possibly make sense for south-west London to and that through his involvement as a member of the come out with fewer acute beds and fewer intensive care board of St George’s Hospital—which will be profoundly units than before? Surely the decision to place the only affected by these changes—he should have recused himself. intensive care unit on the same site as a cancer hub now We know that in public life not only do we have to do has to be questioned. I do not dispute the extraordinary the right thing; we have to be seen to do the right thing. work of the Royal Marsden or challenge whether it I will argue that Sir Norman could not be regarded as requires an intensive care unit, but these plans were independent because his connection is far from “tangential”. formed long before the pandemic was known about and Let me turn first to the plans themselves.The programme have to be reassessed in the light of it. proposes to turn St Helier Hospital into a glorified The programme’s own impact assessment in walk-in centre, removing its A&E, maternity services, January warned that any unplanned event such as a children’s beds and critical care. Some 62% of beds pandemic could challenge the resilience of the proposed would be lost from the area where health is poorest and reconfiguration. It described this situation as “unlikely” life expectancy shortest. The programme’s own analysis and yet, astonishingly, just five pages of analysis have unsurprisingly reveals the indisputable link between been produced on the pandemic’s impact on the plans. deprivation and the need for acute services, but ignores It is the wild west, where everything proceeds full steam the fact that 42 of the 51 deprived areas in the catchment ahead, no matter the evidence presented—evidence that are nearest to St Helier. It is a slap in the face for cannot be dismissed. expectant mums in my community. We now know that people from black and ethnic groups are most likely to be diagnosed with coronavirus, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the more likely to require admission to an intensive care hon. Lady on securing this debate. Does she agree that unit once in hospital, and up to twice as likely to die although moving beds to a nearby hospital may make than those from white British backgrounds. We know sense on paper, to ask expectant mothers to add a lump that black women are five times more likely to die in 573 Independent Reconfiguration Panel19 NOVEMBER 2020 Independent Reconfiguration Panel 574 childbirth than white women, and more likely to require that the chair of the board, Gillian Norton, wrote to the neonatal or specialist care baby units. We also know programme directly on behalf of her board, including that 64 of the 66 areas with the highest proportion of Sir Norman: BAME residents are nearest to St Helier, and that half “Senior staff within St George’s have spent significant amounts of those are in the bottom two quintiles of deprivation, of time over the last 3 months engaging with both the programme increasing their likely reliance on acute services. team and colleagues in other providers to work through the … It is indisputable: these proposals would negatively impact on providers of the shortlisted options The board agreed that I need to write to you now, formally, to set out these and disproportionately impact BAME residents, deprived concerns…I understand that a key principle of how programme communities and expectant mums in my constituency. process has been agreed is that there is no formal requirement to It is no wonder that when they were put out to public take account of the impact on other providers. I find this difficult consultation, tens of thousands of residents voiced to understand in any event given we are a health system but their disapproval, with overwhelming opposition to the particularly so in the context of the SWL Health and Care downgrading of St Helier. It was also clear from the Partnership and the expectation that we will work collaboratively.” public response that if these plans went ahead, many I found this letter so extraordinary, after fighting this residents would not travel to inaccessible Belmont, but reorganisation for 23 years, that I wrote back to the would head instead to St George’s—a hospital that is board and the chair. Naturally, this issue rightly remained already under immense pressure, with an A&E in the high on the board’s agenda. The papers for the board bottom quartile for safe standards. meeting of December 2018 show concerns from St George’s Why does Sir Norman have a conflict of interest? finance and investment committee about the lack of Because this is a reorganisation of a neighbouring trust options explored by Epsom and St Helier, and agreement that will have a profound impact on St George’s. That is that the trust should feed this back to the programme. a case that the board of St George’s has rightly and By January 2019, the chief executive spelled out to Sir successfully fought, very publicly, so much so that in a Norman and the board: letter in March this year,the chief executive of St George’s “Any changes to the current configuration of services at Epsom made it clear that support for the plans was contingent and St Helier are likely to impact St George’s, and it is important on her hospital receiving capital investment for a new these are factored into any future proposals.” emergency floor to take account of the increased number She again used her notes at the February board meeting of emergency care patients that it would receive. That is to state: the kind of change that requires the full consideration, “While the location of the new facility is yet to be decided, it’s scrutiny and involvement of the board and the most clear that there are significant estate issues at both Trusts that senior staff. I can think of a number of words to need to be addressed through capital investment.” describe that relationship: conditional, connected and Time and again, the programme was brought to Sir Norman dependent, but certainly not “tangential”. and the board’s attention—in April, in May and in In July this year, Merton Council saw these plans for June. This would be a landmark decision for St George’s what they are and used its power to call them in for Hospital. It is completely understandable that it had review by the Department of Health and Social Care their full attention. Independent Reconfiguration Panel. By its name and In July 2019, the programme released the impact nature, it is an independent panel of health experts who assessment on St George’s. It is utterly inconceivable can cast a fresh, impartial eye for the Secretary of State. that someone as diligent and respected as Sir Norman The chair of the panel is Professor Sir Norman Williams, would not have been aware of this, particularly as who until 30 September 2019 was a long-standing board senior staff at his trust had helped produce it—a document member at St George’s Hospital. Naturally, I presumed released just months before he became chair of the that that conflict of interest would be recognised and he Independent Reconfiguration Panel. That Sir Norman would step aside from judging this proposal. Unfortunately, was so heavily involved in these proposals is no criticism. he did not, with his connection to the plans described as He was rightly fulfilling his responsibility as board “tangential” and member of a hospital that would be heavily impacted “not relevant to his role in independently formulating a response”. by these proposals. He declared his role to the other This evening, I ask the Minister to consider just how Independent Reconfiguration Panel members, explaining tangential that connection is. In April 2016, Sir Norman that he had even had recent discussions with senior became a board member at St George’s, and board consultants at Epsom and St Helier through his role as meeting minutes and papers reveal that the reorganisation chair of the national clinical improvement programme. was debated time and time again. The papers from one All public office holders are subject to the seven principles of his first board meetings in June highlighted the of public life, one of which is objectivity. But how could requirement for service change and reconfiguration in Sir Norman be objective? How could he even appear to south-west London. In March 2017, the chair discussed be so? In public life, it is important not only to be the upcoming board-to-board meeting with Epsom and objective, but to be seen to be objective. St Helier, which would provide an opportunity to discuss My community has fought tirelessly for St Helier, and the development of joint renal services. Fast forward to the least we expect is transparency,honesty and objectivity October, and the board’s attention was on a joint letter from the top. Astonishingly, the panel instead considered signed by the CEO of St George’s about the importance that there was nothing more than tangential connections, of considering the future of their hospitals with any irrelevant to Sir Norman’srole in independently formulating reconfiguration at St Helier. a response for the Secretary of State. Tangential! If The issue came to the board again in December, there is any doubt over how interconnected the hospitals following Epsom and St Helier’s indication that it needed are, then be aware that the chair of St George’s also to change its clinical model. By the following November, became chair of Epsom and St Helier in 2019. Conveniently, the impact of the proposals on St George’s was so clear it was on the very same day that Sir Norman became 575 Independent Reconfiguration Panel19 NOVEMBER 2020 Independent Reconfiguration Panel 576

[Siobhain McDonagh] Without recounting all the background that the hon. Lady has set out for the House this evening and on previous chair of the Independent Reconfiguration Panel. Surely occasions, in December 2017, the “Improving Healthcare the Minister can see that there is nothing tangential in Together 2020-2030” programme was established to the evidence that I have laid out today. Not only did Sir address the significant estate quality and finance challenges Norman already know about the proposals before he that Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals NHS was asked independently to judge them, he must have Trust is currently facing. NHS Surrey Heartlands and known them inside out, having faced them repeatedly at NHS South-West London clinical commissioning groups board level and in conjunction with a whole host of the are the organisations responsible for making decisions key personnel involved. It was tangential to the tune of about local healthcare. They led the development of millions of pounds of investment on which his former proposals for any potential service changes, and it is hospital’s support is contingent. right that they did so at that local level, including We must not underestimate the importance of a fresh appropriate consultation. As she set out, following a eye. One of the leaders of these plans, Daniel Elkeles, period of sustained engagement and options development, formerly led the infamous “Shaping a Healthier Future” on 3 July 2020 local NHS leaders approved plans that plan, which proposed similar hospital downgrades in will see a brand new state-of-the-art hospital built in north-west London, wasting £76 million over eight Sutton to treat the sickest patients and most services years before the Treasury finally put a stop to it. staying put in modernised buildings at Epsom and St Helier hospitals. I draw to a close now. I must say that I respect the Minister. He found time to meet me in the summer The hon. Lady raised a number of concerns about when his time must have been so scarce. I explained my this decision—in particular, around transport and travel, reasoning for calling this debate to his office last week bed numbers, acute services, and the impact on more so that he could come prepared. I am not trying to catch deprived communities and health inequalities. As she him off guard. I am asking that he steps away from said, she also raised these issues at our meeting in July, party politics and recognises that this connection is which it was a pleasure to undertake with her. When the indisputable rather than tangential. If an independent decision was made, measures to address these issues panel was asked to review the plans, the panel must be were also set out, including extending the H1 Epsom independent. I am asking that he consults his Treasury and St Helier hospital bus route into Merton and colleagues on why the most expensive option is being further south into Surrey, beyond Epsom, and increasing chosen at a time of such economic turmoil. I am asking the frequency of travel between the three hospital sites; that he reflects on the powerful shoes he is in and the reviewing car parking on all three sites; increased bed unique opportunity he has to help to close health capacity to care for an extra 1,300 in-patients a year; inequalities in an area where they are so stark. Surely advances in technology and treatment; closer working that would make any Health Minister proud of his with community services so that fewer patients will need work, and maybe then we really could improve health an overnight stay and will be able to get home sooner; together. exploring further opportunities for primary care services at Epsom and St Helier hospitals; and expanding child and adolescent mental health services on the St Helier 5.20 pm site. Under the proposals, about 85% of current services The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): I congratulate would stay put at Epsom and St Helier, with six major the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain services being brought together in the new specialist McDonagh) on securing this important debate. I recognise emergency care hospital, including A&E, critical care, her continued interest in local health matters and her and emergency surgery. The capital investment for those championing of her constituents’ interests. She knows proposals is not only to fund the new hospital but to that I have considerable respect for her and her work in invest in and improve the current sites at both Epsom this House on behalf of her constituents. However, she and St Helier, including funding for the A&Es. will perhaps not be surprised that I cannot fully agree I can reassure the hon. Lady that the Treasury is and with the picture that she painted to the House today. will remain fully engaged with not only this proposal Before I get into the meat of the debate, let me pay but all 40 of the Government’s hospital proposals. As tribute to all the staff at the trust and across our entire she would expect and know from her long career in the NHS for the amazing work they do day in, day out, House, the Treasury takes a close interest in any proposals particularly at this time. I know that is a sentiment that that entail the spending of significant amounts of public the hon. Lady would share. money. This is a significant investment in improving healthcare across the communities served by these hospitals, As the hon. Lady said, all proposed service changes which is why my hon. Friends the Members for Carshalton should be based on clear evidence that they will deliver and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) and for Wimbledon better outcomes for patients and should meet the four (Stephen Hammond) have recently set out their and tests for service change: they should have support from their communities’ strong support for these proposals. GP commissioners, be based on clinical evidence, demonstrate patient and public engagement, and consider The Independent Reconfiguration Panel was at the patient choice. It is right that these matters are addressed crux of the case made by the hon. Member for Mitcham at a level where the local healthcare needs are best and Morden. As she set out, the IRP is the non- understood, rather than emanating from Whitehall. I departmental public body set up in 2003 to provide the should point out that in cases where these proposals are Secretary of State with expert independent advice on referred to Ministers, they are considered impartially contested NHS service changes and reconfiguration. and on their merits, and that is what has happened in There are currently 15 panel members who review referral this case. cases.They have a mix of clinical, lay,patient representative 577 Independent Reconfiguration Panel19 NOVEMBER 2020 Independent Reconfiguration Panel 578 or engagement, specialist and managerial backgrounds. a matter of public record: that between May 2016 and The IRP has provided independent advice more than September 2019, he had been a non-executive director 80 times since it was established. With reconfigurations of St George’s University Hospitals NHS Foundation referred to the IRP, there is an open and transparent Trust, which neighbours the Epsom and St Helier University process, which people expect to be carried out to the Hospitals NHS Trust, and he made it clear to the panel most rigorous standards of integrity, honesty and that that was a linkage. However, Sir Norman clearly impartiality. We must adhere visibly to those standards, left some time before the proposals were considered by and I believe, on the evidence I have seen, that those the panel and, indeed, before the March date of this standards were met in this case. year that the hon. Lady referred to.As she said, independent As the hon. Lady will know, local authorities have a panel members considered that matter and the issues power to refer certain proposals to the Secretary of that she had raised, and confirmed that in their view the State where they consider that there has been inadequate historic connections with the case did not represent a consultation, where reasons given for non-consultation conflict of interest and agreed that they were not relevant are inadequate or where they believe that the proposal is to Sir Norman’s role in chairing the formulation of the not in the interests of their area and communities. The advice. Secretary of State can then choose whether to commission I have to say that I think it would be wrong to advice from the IRP, which is normally provided in question in any way the integrity, impartiality or 20 working days, and Ministers are clear about the need independence of the panel or the chair, who I believe is for that advice to be swiftly and efficiently given. Following more than capable, rightly fulfilled his previous role to collection of evidence, the IRP submits its report either the best of his ability and fulfils his current role entirely with advice not to proceed or containing recommendations to the best of his ability, recognising and fulfilling the to the Secretary of State on specific proposals. I emphasise requirement to be independent in the view he takes. that the IRP’s role is advisory, and the Secretary of I have seen no reason—or no compelling reason—to State ultimately makes the decision. suggest that his behaviour has in any way contradicted In July—at roughly the same time as my meeting with that need for independence and objective guidance. the hon. Lady, which slightly limited the conversation It is of course right that all reconfiguration decisions we were able to have—Merton Council referred the are taken in the best interests of patients and the local scheme to the Secretary of State, who referred it to the population, following due process. The people affected IRP, which provided its advice on 28 October. Following by the changes need to be involved in making the key thorough consideration of that advice, the Secretary of decisions, and the IRP advice concluded: State accepted the IRP’s impartial advice, which was “Patients and the public will need to be engaged in shaping and that there was no reason to contradict the proposed understanding the new landscape of services to gain maximum choice of Sutton—Belmont—as the location for the benefit from them.” new specialist emergency care hospital. I know that I believe that they will be. there have been some noises locally about the possibility I know that the hon. Lady’s constituents are and will of subsequent legal review or legal action, so I will not continue to be strongly represented by her. I recognise dwell on that aspect. I do not believe that any judicial the strength of her views, but I do believe that the review has been tabled at this point, so I feel that I can process has been carried out fairly, independently and comment a little further on the issues she raised. I must appropriately, in seeking to reach the best decision for emphasise that the IRP provides impartial, independent the people who use the hospitals. advice. I turn to the specific points that the hon. Lady made Question put and agreed to. about Sir Norman. It is up front and totally clear in the IRP report that Sir Norman Williams, the chair of the 5.30 pm IRP, declared openly to IRP members what was already House adjourned.

219WH 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps 220WH

The targets set for the 2019 Act are that by 2040 no Westminster Hall more than 5% of households should be in fuel poverty, no more than 1% of households should be in extreme Thursday 19 November 2020 fuel poverty,and the median fuel poverty gap of households in fuel poverty is to be no more than £250 in 2015 prices [CHRISTINA REES in the Chair] before adding inflation. Each of those 2040 targets must be achieved not only in Scotland as a whole, but Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps within each of the 32 local authority areas to ensure that no part of the country is left behind in tackling the 1.30 pm root causes of fuel poverty. In my opinion, and I am sure others here will agree, not even one home ought to Christina Rees (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members be caught in the misery of fuel poverty. One home is one that there have been some changes to normal practice in too many, but if we can achieve those targets it will at order to support the new call list system and ensure that least be a step in the right direction. social distancing can be respected. Members should sanitise their microphones with the cleaning materials The 2019 Act also established a new two-part definition provided before they use them and then dispose of the whereby it is determined that a household is fuel poor materials as they leave the room. Members are also if, after housing costs have been deducted, more than asked to respect the one-way system around the room. 10% of net income is required to pay for reasonable fuel They should speak only from the horseshoe and can needs, and, after further adjustments are made to deduct speak only if they are on the call list. That applies even childcare costs and any benefits received for disability if debates are undersubscribed. Members cannot join or care need, the remaining income is insufficient to the debate if they are not on the call list. maintain an acceptable standard of living, defined as 90% of the UK minimum income standard, which is the 1.30 pm minimum amount required to meet material needs and participate in society. A household is considered to be Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP): I in extreme fuel poverty if, after housing costs have been beg to move, deducted, more than 20% of net income is required to That this House has considered fuel poverty and energy price pay for reasonable fuel needs. caps. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship No doubt there are nuances in how other devolved today,Ms Rees.I thank the Backbench Business Committee nations refine their own definitions, but we all use the for granting my application, for two reasons. First, the 10% criteria. A household in Wales is described as fuel issues to be discussed are important ones that affect poor if it needs to spend more than 10% of its net millions of households across the United Kingdom. income on energy costs while in Northern Ireland a Secondly, despite the statutory requirement to debate household is considered fuel poor if it needs to spend in fuel poverty annually, it was not met last year. I am also excess of 10% of its household income on all fuel use. grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick The UK Government, however, moved away from using and Cumnock (Allan Dorans) for agreeing to co-sponsor the 10% benchmark in 2013 when they adopted the today’s debate so that it could go ahead if I had not low-income, high-cost approach. This categorises a been able to attend in person. I certainly echo the household as fuel poor if the cost of keeping the home Minister’s closing remarks in the previous debate in at a reasonable temperature is above the national median December 2018 in so far as I also hope that a cross-party level and if it were to spend that amount, its residual consensus can be reached to eradicate fuel poverty, income would be below the official poverty line. which, unfortunately, continues to be a scourge across On the other devolved issue of energy efficiency, it is the whole of the UK. worth mentioning that energy efficiency does not only Fuel poverty and energy efficiency are of course go a long way to keeping household bills down; it also devolved matters, yet it is recognised that fuel poverty is helps devolved nations play their part in tackling the impacted not only by a home’s energy efficiency, but by global climate crisis, but that is a debate for another day. household income and the cost of energy. That therefore Indeed, the Scottish Government have classified energy leaves the devolved nations exposed to Westminster efficiency as a national infrastructure priority and they policies when trying to tackle fuel poverty. We are have been praised by the Business, Energy and Industrial fighting it with one hand tied behind our backs. As a Strategy Committee for doing so. In its report “Energy devolved policy area, fuel poverty is defined and measured efficiency: building towards net zero” it recognised: differently in different parts of the UK. For that reason, “Scotland has made much faster progress in improving the it cannot be directly compared because of the differences energy efficiency of its fuel poor homes than England”. in methodology. The same report also recommended that the UK In Scotland last year, with unanimous cross-party Government support, the Scottish Parliament passed the Fuel Poverty “follows the example of the devolved nations by supplementing (Targets, Definition and Strategy) (Scotland) Act 2019, ECO with central Government funding for fuel poverty.” which sets statutory targets for reducing fuel poverty, introduces a new definition that aligns fuel poverty For the sake of clarity, I should make it clear that ECO more closely with relative income poverty, and requires is the energy company obligation. Scottish Ministers to produce a comprehensive strategy I expected Members from the other devolved nations to show how they intend to meet the targets. The final to share their experiences, but given covid-19 lockdowns fuel poverty strategy was due to be published in September, and other business in the House, Members from other but, like many other important issues, the covid-19 parts of the UK are not present. Therefore, I will outbreak has delayed it and it is now expected next year. highlight some of the achievements of the Scottish 221WH Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps19 NOVEMBER 2020 Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps 222WH

[Martyn Day] Citizens Advice, an organisation that welcomed it as some semblance of protection for households on default Government in this regard. They have spent four times tariffs, simultaneously warned that customers could still as much as the UK Government on household energy get a better deal by switching supplier or investing in efficiency—the highest average annual per capita investment energy efficiency. in the UK. In the periods from 2013-14 up to 2018-19, It was evident—in fact, it was pointed out in the last their total investment in domestic energy efficiency was fuel poverty debate, which took place nearly two years £636 million. The schemes helped more than ago, before the Domestic Gas and Electricity (Tariff 150,000 households throughout Scotland to benefit from Cap) Act 2018 came into force on 1 January 2019—that energy efficiency measures and, by the end of 2021, the energy price caps would be set at a sustainably they will have allocated more than £1 billion since 2009 higher level than the cheapest available tariffs. Therefore, through energy efficiency programmes to make homes the intention behind the price caps—to protect consumers warmer and cheaper to heat. Over the lifetime of the in England, Wales and Scotland who were on default measures installed, Scottish households will cumulatively tariffs—was questionable from the get-go. Additionally, have saved more than £854 million on fuel bills. research carried out in 2018 by the consumer group Furthermore, for the next Parliament, the Scottish Which? found that the energy price cap would not help Government will invest nearly £1.6 billion in transforming customers who were on some of the priciest deals on the our buildings to ensure that emissions from heating are market. For example, 30% of customers who were on eliminated by 2040 and to remove poor energy efficiency fixed tariffs, rather than default tariffs, were not able to as a driver of fuel poverty. This uplifts heat and energy benefit. efficiency spend from £112 million in 2019-20 to There is also the issue of some energy customers £398 million per annum in 2025-26 and will include an having access only to certain tariffs due to having a additional £55 million to support the scale-up of energy prepayment meter. The Competition and Markets efficiency programmes. Authority’s report recommended the first price cap for Our progress in this area is encouraging. However, customers on prepayment meters because they had continuing to improve the energy efficiency of Scotland’s fewer options, which resulted in less competition and a buildings—both domestic and non-domestic—and over higher likelihood of being overcharged. Ofgem introduced time decarbonising the heat supply to those buildings, that recommendation as a temporary cap in April 2017. providing warmer homes and better outcomes for our Furthermore, there are customers across the country consumers, remains a major challenge. It is a challenge who are subjected to unaffordable tie-in tariffs because that we are determined to meet. That is why on of the type of heating system and meter that are installed 16 December, despite the challenges posed by covid-19, in their home. Indeed, I presented a public petition the Scottish Government provided a further £16 million earlier this year on behalf of Falkirk’s Forgotten Villages, investment to improve energy efficiency in fuel-poor a group made up of some of my constituents, whose households. The money will be used to improve insulation experience of the THERMAflow wet electric heating and install energy-efficient heating systems, including system and its related ScottishPower’s Economy 2000 those using renewable technology, thereby contributing tie-in tariff is not only fuel poverty, but food poverty to Scotland’s net zero targets and helping to meet a key and physical and mental health issues. programme for Government commitment. This new I pay tribute to the work done by the Falkirk’s investment will help to improve the lives of fuel-poor Forgotten Villages group, and I recognise the significant people in Scotland by enabling them to live in warm, investment that Falkirk Council has made in agreeing comfortable homes and pay less on their fuel bills by to install a new mains gas system in 86% of the affected living in a greener and more sustainable way.Importantly, properties. That is a great example of partnership working, in the current, climate, it is expected to help to secure up and it shows what can be achieved. I am looking forward to 200 jobs. to seeing continued progress with the project and to learning what renewable technologies will be engaged Yet we have not lost sight of the fact that energy for properties where gas installation is not available. remains unaffordable for far too many in Scotland, Falkirk Councillor Laura Murtagh, who has also been creating hardship for individuals and families. Energy working on the replacement of wet electric heating prices and market failures play an obvious part in that, systems in her area, says: but the building stock in parts of Scotland is old and, “These residents are particularly vulnerable to fuel poverty due all too often, profoundly wasteful in energy. However, to the double whammy of high heating tariffs and inefficient as I have said, fuel poverty is driven by more than systems, which cause eye-wateringly high bills for residents, who energy efficiency and, collectively, we need to do more, are often in a position to least afford this.” because thousands of people die from it every year. As Councillor Murtagh has been assisting residents in winter approaches, we have a responsibility to be mindful her ward with energy-efficiency measures for some time. that temperature-related excess winter mortality remains However, the rise in the tariff, which was introduced last strongly evident. We must also take heed of the growing year by ScottishPower, highlighted the breadth and body of evidence that shows links between indoor depth of the issue and galvanised council officials to temperatures and excess winter mortality. work at pace over the past year to find solutions for the The reason that I applied for a debate on energy price affected areas. Hopefully, I will hear about progress caps is because it is a UK Government fuel poverty being made in these areas over the coming months. policy that relates to energy costs—one of the reserved Having no access to mains gas affects another group key drivers of fuel poverty that the devolved nations of households, who I understand are generally unable have no control over. Moreover, like the energy company to benefit from the Domestic Gas and Electricity (Tariff obligation, this UK Government policy is not the panacea Cap) Act 2018, as they have little choice in their heating for fuel poverty that was anticipated. Indeed, even source, pay more for their fuel and are thereby more at 223WH Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps19 NOVEMBER 2020 Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps 224WH risk of fuel poverty. We must not underestimate the earlier, about energy price caps being set at a level economic and social implications of living in a fuel-poor substantially higher than the cheapest available tariff household, and we must do everything in our power to and proves customers can get a better deal by switching. end the dilemma of whether people heat their home or It is relevant to point out that ScottishPower is the feed their family, because being in that situation causes energy provider in the cases I have talked about and that distress and ill health, both physical and mental. these are just a few of my constituents who have approached Earlier this year, the SNP called for a package of me since the start of the year. These cases do not cover measures to help households get through the crisis, and all the constituents who have experienced problems I urge the UK Government to heed the calls and to look with unaffordable energy costs, because there simply is urgently at introducing an emergency coronavirus energy not time to cover them all. Even with as few speakers we grant to support households struggling to pay their have today, I would be here until next week going energy bills, and to prevent them from accruing through the cases. I am fairly certain that not everyone unmanageable debts. For example, I saw evidence from has come forward for help since I was first elected one of my constituents, who lives in accommodation five years ago. within the boundaries of Falkirk’s forgotten villages To summarise, it is deeply regrettable that the UK and uses the THERMAflow heating system, that they Government have not met their statutory requirement pay an average of £170 per month for their home energy. to debate fuel poverty annually.Additionally,the situations Members will not be surprised to hear that after their I have highlighted indicate that the energy price cap is housing costs were paid, they were not left with £1,700 not having the desired effect. Indeed, in his statement to of net income to make that energy affordable. That was Parliament on 20 October, the Business Secretary said not the worst that this area of my constituency experienced, that when the price cap on standard variable and default nor are high energy costs unique to those using the energy tariffs ends there will be THERMAflow system. I have heard about bills far in “more to do to ensure consumers will not face unfair prices”.—[Official excess of that being received in those remote villages. Report, 20 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 38WS.] Other constituents, who live in a three-bedroom semi Although extending the price cap to next year may with the THERMAflow wet electric heating system and provide some protection for some customers, that does the domestic Economy 2000 meter tariff, had an average not go far enough. It is just more of the same. Instead, I monthly energy bill of £270. When they raised an urge the Government to prioritise the faster switching inquiry,they were advised by a ScottishPower representative initiatives and consumer engagement schemes that the that THERMAflow wet heating systems can be notoriously Secretary of State referred to in his statement, and to expensive to run. That had not been brought to their replace the price cap with a scheme that will ensure all attention before installation, nor were they given any customers are protected from the energy inefficiency guidance about how to effectively use the system after it and high tariffs imposed by energy providers, which was installed. target the least wealthy in our society. ScottishPower is not linked to THERMAflow systems in any way and my reference to it is as the local provider. 1.49 pm There are currently 60 or so alternative energy suppliers Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (SNP): in the UK who could offer a cheaper tariff but do not. The difficulty with following the hon. Member for There is no cost-benefit for constituents to switch, Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) is that he which is why we need Government action on energy policy. makes such a comprehensive case. As we prepared our It is unacceptable that constituents could not access speeches individually, there is some repetition in the cheapest payment method, just because they do not our remarks. However, as he was speaking, I took the pay by direct debit, in common with many others across opportunity to take out some of the repetition, as it is the country. Such draconian measures target the least such a short debate, rather than take up too much time. advantaged and most vulnerable in our society. Energy Fuel poverty rates vary significantly across the United companies must end that discrimination voluntarily or Kingdom and cannot be directly compared, owing to legislation should be introduced to ensure that they do. differences in methodology.However, the latest estimates Another constituent, who paid ScottishPower for show that around 11% of households in England are their electricity by direct debit, contacted me in distress classed as fuel-poor. The figure is 12% in Wales, 18% in in June this year after receiving an outstanding statement Northern Ireland and 25% in Scotland. That is a remarkable for over £1,500, despite making the regular requested difference, and one that needs to be addressed. payments. That constituent is a vulnerable pensioner In Scotland, fuel poverty is generally measured on who lives alone in accommodation that does not have the basis that, in order to maintain a satisfactory heat the THERMAflow system. In fact, their home has no regime, a household would be required to spend more central heating at all. All the distress was down to than 10% of their disposable household income on fuel. billing errors because a new meter had to be installed Some of the areas of the worst fuel poverty in Scotland when my constituent did not want to be a victim of an are in my constituency of Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock. expensive pay-as-you-go tariff. There is deep injustice in that, as many of those areas That is a prime example of someone trying to be are in communities still living above the great Ayrshire prudent, yet still being caught out by a system that lets coalfields that powered the economy and the industrial people down. Fortunately, that constituent was lucky to revolution for centuries and they are home to many have the support of their family, who stepped in and wind farms, which power the economy today. Adding to found the best available option was to change supplier. that sense of injustice, those wind farms now play a That is a bad enough situation, but it begs the question major part in the transfer of electricity from Scotland of how a pensioner living alone on a fixed income copes to other parts of the United Kingdom. As of April 2020, with such a dilemma if they do not have support from that transfer stands at 25,000 gigawatt-hours annually— their family or others. It exemplifies what I mentioned enough to heat 700,000 homes. 225WH Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps19 NOVEMBER 2020 Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps 226WH

[Allan Dorans] bills per year and significantly reduced admission rates for respiratory and cardiovascular-related conditions in Parts of East Ayrshire in my constituency have some those areas. That project is an impressive example of of the highest levels of fuel poverty in Scotland—a what can be done, despite the limitations of the devolution staggering 32% of households—while neighbouring South settlement, by the Scottish Government in partnership Ayrshire, also in my constituency, has one of the lower with local authorities to make a real improvement to levels in Scotland, at 22%. Both figures are much higher lives by reducing fuel poverty. than the English average of about 11%. Most shockingly, Despite the fact that Scotland’s energy generation, 13% of households in East Ayrshire suffer from extreme produced by oil, gas and renewables, is way beyond its fuel poverty and need to spend at least 20% of their domestic demand, energy prices for consumers in Scotland disposable income on fuel. remain high. According to Age Scotland, price capping Fuel poverty and the ability to properly heat homes has made little difference to them. really matters for health outcomes. According to research Fuel poverty is a major issue across all nations of the published in June 2020, cold temperatures are strongly United Kingdom, but it is particularly serious in Scotland. related to cardiovascular and respiratory diseases and It has also been brought into sharp relief recently by the they double the risk of respiratory problems in children. number of people working from home or on furlough Cold also suppresses the immune system, increasing the due to covid-19, and the significant increase in their risk of infections and minor illnesses such as cold and home fuel bills, by as much as 37%. They have generally flu. Living in poverty exacerbates existing conditions not been compensated by employers. The reality of fuel such as arthritis and rheumatism and negatively affects poverty is that today, as winter approaches and we the mental health of the population by increasing the gather here in the relative warmth of Westminster Hall, financial stress on households. in all our communities there are families with young We know that 91 per cent of those who have died children who, through no fault of their own, are out of from the effects of covid-19 had a pre-existing medical work; people on benefits; working families on the minimum condition—commonly, chronic lower respiratory disease. wage or zero-hours contracts; elderly people alone and The End Fuel Poverty Coalition has warned that fuel isolated; the long-term sick and disabled, and many poverty puts households more at risk from the worst others, including those who have been excluded by the effects of covid-19. Reducing preventable ill health arising Chancellor from receiving grants, loans or any other from cold homes will be vital in protecting the national benefits in our society, who have to make the difficult health service and care services this winter. decision daily whether to heat or eat. Although the Scottish Government have made progress Without any doubt, the major contributor to the on tackling fuel poverty and improving energy efficiency, existence of fuel poverty is the overall level of poverty the constraints of the devolution settlement, under in this country. The Scottish Government have already which 85% of expenditure and income-replacement benefits implemented a number of specific actions to reduce are reserved to Westminster,prevents the kind of structural household poverty by increasing disposable household change and investment required in a country that has a income, which have been widely praised by the United harsher climate and, ironically, generates far more power Nations and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. than it requires. The immediate impacts on levels of fuel The actions include the Scottish child payment, which poverty are directly related to general poverty and are will commence in February 2021. It will provide families the direct result of the austerity policies of the United on low incomes with a payment of £10 per week for Kingdom Government over the past 10 years. each child under six, which the Joseph Rowntree Foundation To effect meaningful change in levels of fuel poverty, has said will Scotland needs powers on welfare, the ability to cap energy “make a significant contribution to tackling child poverty in prices to affordable levels, and the control of economic Scotland.” levers, and not only in respect of fuel poverty and overall There are also community care grants, where £25 million poverty. That would best be achieved by an independent has been paid out to help with one-off cost purchases, Scotland or, in the short term, by powers being devolved to allow those on low incomes to purchase essential to the Scottish Parliament as a matter of urgency. household items. Since 2013, an annual package of 1.58 pm more than £125 million has been paid to mitigate the impact of the UK Government’s welfare cuts, including Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): It is the bedroom tax, the two-child benefit cap, the five-week a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. I wait for universal credit and the sanctions regime. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) and my constituency The Scottish Government aim to reduce fuel poverty neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick to no more than 5% and extreme fuel poverty to no and Cumnock (Allan Dorans), on securing this debate. more than 1% by 2040, but they are constrained by their I thank the Backbench Business Committee. This is a partial controls over benefits and the levers of the very important subject, and it is a shame that there are economy. They have also recently introduced a child not more hon. Members here to debate it, but obviously, winter heating assistance programme—a new payment between covid and the fact that it is a Thursday afternoon, of £200 to help families with severely disabled children. it is understandable that the Chamber is not as full as it Using Scottish Government funding and advice, East would normally be. Ayrshire Council and South Ayrshire Council have had My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East external wall insulation fitted to improve energy efficiency, Falkirk set out the issues really well. He highlighted the lower costs and improve health outcomes. In South need to work on a cross-party basis. It was interesting to Ayrshire alone, a programme to fit external wall insulation hear about the work undertaken with Falkirk’s forgotten to 1,900 properties saved more than £400,000 on fuel villages. I am sure many of us have villages that claim to 227WH Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps19 NOVEMBER 2020 Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps 228WH be forgotten villages. It is great to see them working I welcome the action taken by the Scottish Government together to secure a successful outcome and a gas grid to deliver their new child winter heating allowance. connection. Hon. Members can tell how steeped my Those payments of £200 a year for those eligible start hon. Friend is in his constituency and the work that he next month and are automatically paid, rather than does for his constituents by bringing forward those people having to claim for them, so everybody will get examples, defending his constituents and trying to effect them in full. The UK Government could look at that, change, as highlighted today. My neighbour, my hon. along with the request from my hon. Friend the Member Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock, for Linlithgow and East Falkirk for an emergency reiterated Scotland’s contribution to the generation of coronavirus energy grant, to which I hope the Minister the UK’s energy supply and fuel over the years. He also will respond. highlighted how East Ayrshire Council, which is my We also need the UK Government to commit to local authority as well, suffers from fuel poverty and keeping the £20 uplift for universal credit. That additional poverty in general, which we would like to be addressed. money has been a lifeline to many, but those on legacy On that point, I welcome the fact that the UK benefits need a similar increase.That is not the responsibility Government, the Scottish Government and the three of the Minister’s Department, but I hope he can speak Ayrshire councils today signed off the Ayrshire growth to the Chancellor about that. deal. One of the proposals of that deal is for a national As was highlighted, the Scottish Government have energy research demonstrator project at Cumnock. The brought forward groundbreaking legislation to tackle leader of East Ayrshire Council today highlighted the fuel poverty.We need to know when the UK Government need to tackle fuel poverty, and hopefully that will make will bring forward their fuel poverty legislation and a difference in our area. strategy. We wait with bated breath for the energy White I am lucky that I have never had the dilemma of not Paper. The Minister said recently, in a written answer, being able to turn on the heating, or faced the awful that he is still planning to publish it in the autumn, but I choice of what to cut out to turn it on, but as my hon. suggest that in Scotland it is already winter, rather than Friends have demonstrated, too many people do face autumn, so hopefully we will see it soon. the awful choice of heating or eating, which is simply One of the most important factors, apart from income not good enough. I am sure that all hon. Members and alleviating fuel poverty, is clearly energy efficiency present have dealt with constituents who are in that measures. As we have heard, the Scottish Government predicament, or who try to get by by heating only a have led the way on that. I want to focus a wee bit more couple of rooms. Heating only a couple of rooms on the details of energy efficiency—hopefully without invariably leads to dampness in the rooms that are not repeating too much of what my colleagues have said. being heated, which obviously exacerbates health problems, Obviously, it is a no-brainer that greater energy efficiency including mental health problems, as my hon. Friend measures can assist in reducing carbon emissions at the the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk highlighted. point of use, as well as the demand in energy generation, That has a personal cost as well as a cost to the NHS, so that also has an effect on reducing emissions further. which has been estimated at between £1.4 billion and Clearly, it will assist in reducing fuel poverty levels and £2.2 billion a year in England. If we tackle the problem, it can be part of a green industrial revolution. we will improve people’s health and wellbeing and cut I welcome the 10-point plan and the commitment to costs to the NHS. Sadly,National Energy Action estimates making £1 billion available next year to make new, and that 10,000 people a year die earlier than they should existing, homes and public buildings more efficient. owing to fuel poverty, so we need to tackle that scourge However, while I welcome that, it does feel like a wee bit of society. of a rehash of previous announcements. We remind the As has been pointed out, the four nations measure Minister that the Conservative manifesto gave a figure fuel poverty slightly differently, but there is no doubt of £9.2 billion, so we actually need to see plans for the that Scotland appears to have a higher rate. Some rest of that money. I also ask the Minister to consider 24% of Scotland’s population are classed as fuel-poor. asking the Chancellor to remove VAT on energy efficiency That is partly due to the fact that about 15% of homes home improvements, because that makes it more cost- are off the gas grid and have to pay more to heat their effective for those that can only just about afford to homes. install such measures. Within that cohort, in the highlands of Scotland, Back to the 10-point plan: I welcome the proposals many customers pay about £400 a year more to heat for installing 600,000 heat pumps every year by 2028. their homes because they are on restricted meters. They Obviously, we need to see how that is going to come pay a surcharge of between 2p and 4p per unit of forward in terms of an action plan and delivery programme. electricity used. I highlight that to the Minister. Does he I request the Minister to look at tackling first those that think it is fair that people in the highlands have to pay a are off the gas grid, and to make the heat pumps more surcharge while exporting electricity to the rest of the efficient. To transform people’s lives, the plan needs to UK? I hope that that can be addressed. We need a better align with the installation of energy efficiency measures. regulatory framework for off-grid heating, to control Hopefully the programme will be co-ordinated in that pricing for people who have to buy oil and gas. I hope way—providing energy efficiency and the installation of that he will take that away and look at it. new heat pumps. It has also been highlighted that covid-19 has had an I do welcome those proposals, but I still think that we impact. People losing their jobs or working at home is need more direct UK Government investment in energy exacerbating fuel poverty.Energy Action Scotland estimates efficiency; again, that comes back to following the lead that fuel poverty in Scotland could increase by 5% owing of the Scottish Government. It is not just the SNP that to the pandemic. Again, that illustrates the need for has said that, but energy companies, third sector action. organisations and the cross-party Business, Energy and 229WH Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps19 NOVEMBER 2020 Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps 230WH

[Alan Brown] helping them. I know that the Minister has acknowledged that appeals for mis-selling by Home Energy and Lifestyle Industrial Strategy Committee in its 2019 report, “Energy Management have taken too long, but his Department efficiency: building towards net zero”. A key point from needs to look at and resolve that matter. that report was: Our net zero commitments will be built in to the next “We note that Scotland’s investment of four times more than investment period for the transmission grid upgrades. England cannot be explained by a less efficient dwelling stock: the ECO and smart meter costs are all being added to latest housing survey data demonstrates that homes in Scotland consumer bills. What will that mean for energy users of actually have greater insulation levels than in England. For example, in 2017, 49 per cent of homes in England had insulated walls, the future? Will the Government start to consider general compared to 60 per cent of homes in Scotland.” taxation as a way to create some of that investment in Also, our energy system? “that Scotland has made much faster progress in improving the Everybody will be pleased to hear that I am going to energy efficiency of its fuel poor homes than England, where in conclude my remarks, but I have a few comments from some bands, progress has stalled.” the BEIS Committee report. The Committee stated that On that, statistics show relative success—44% of Scottish the UK Government must not only match Scottish levels homes were rated as Energy Performance Certificate of funding but create a joined-up strategy, and that the Band C or better in 2018, compared with just 34% in “weight of stakeholder evidence suggests that Scotland designating England and 28% in Wales. In Scotland, the proportion energy efficiency as a national infrastructure priority has helped of properties in the lowest EPC bands of E,F or G has to improve its policy impact, making energy efficiency policy more than halved since 2010, reducing from 27% to better designed and funded, longer-term, as well as more 12%. In England the figure is still at 16%, and unfortunately comprehensively governed and targeted, than in England.” in Wales it is even higher, at 20%, although there is a I ask the Minister to reflect on that and, I hope, to bring caveat that the Scottish figures are measured slightly forward similar plans for the rest of the UK. differently. No wonder the BEIS Committee concluded: “The Government appears indifferent towards how public per 2.12 pm capita spend in household energy efficiency in England compares to other parts of the UK” Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): and It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Rees. I “the governments of the devolved nations treat energy efficiency congratulate the hon. Members for Linlithgow and as a much higher priority than the UK Government.” East Falkirk (Martyn Day) and for Ayr, Carrick and That “indifferent” comment is particularly damning. I Cumnock (Allan Dorans) on securing the debate,and thank would like to hear what the Minister has to say about the Backbench Business Committee for granting it. that. I know that £1 billion has been announced, but we As all hon. Members have said, the scale of fuel need to see the rest of that £9 billion commitment. poverty, which is present in every part of the UK, is The Committee on Climate Change first confirmed staggering. I say that as a Member representing a that policies were not in place to deliver the UK’s constituency less than 10 miles away in which ambitions in energy efficiency to improve homes to at 5,500 households are in fuel poverty—this problem least EPC band C. The CCC stated that regulations for affects every part of the UK. The point about methodology the private rented sector prioritise costs for landlords and the consequent difficulties in making comparisons over the costs for renters, and that minimum standards across the four nations was made, but the headline for social housing were required. By contrast, it observed estimated rates show approximately one in 10 households that the Scottish Government were demonstrating how an in England and Wales are fuel poor, one in five in effective policy package for energy efficiency improvements Northern Ireland, and one in four in Scotland. Those in buildings might be delivered. They have actually set figures should be a source of shame for each nation. We out a comprehensive framework of standards, backed have heard about the negative impacts that fuel poverty by legislation. When will the UK Government put in has on health, mental health, and morbidity. place a proper framework that covers the private rented The debate is timely as this issue affects millions sector, social housing minimum standards and owner- across the country. Older people bear the brunt of it, occupiers, as the Scottish Government have done? but families—particularly single-parent families—and Weknow our long-term energy efficiency and investment increasing numbers of younger people are also affected, programme will create jobs that allow the programme and the issue has been exacerbated by the coronavirus to deliver the best value, avoiding spikes in cost, as part pandemic. The impact has been felt not just because of of a green industrial revolution. Some 27 million homes sharp reductions in income, job losses, and people being need their heating systems decarbonised, so it is critical furloughed or having to manage on some form of that they are as energy efficient as possible. That is why financial support from the state,but, as has been mentioned, it would be good to see a long-term Government because more time at home as the weather turns colder programme that looked at energy efficiency as a national means much higher bills. In the context of the near infrastructure project. Maybe that could be addressed standstill on the installation of smart meters and of the when the national infrastructure plan is published. distinct lack of progress on energy efficiency, there is My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East concern that this winter could see even higher numbers Falkirk mentioned the energy company obligation scheme. of deaths linked to cold homes. The committee on fuel poverty states that those measures That more can and should be done to address fuel do not actually help those who most need help, which poverty is, in my view, beyond dispute. A number of confirms the need for direct, targeted investment. We do schemes already aim to tackle the problem, but they not want another failure like the green deal scheme, operate with varying degrees of effectiveness, and more which has put more people into fuel poverty rather than attention needs to be paid to making them work better 231WH Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps19 NOVEMBER 2020 Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps 232WH and over a long time. In the short term, we really need vulnerable in the population. There is no doubt in my clarity on how those schemes will operate in the months mind that the price cap has saved the poorest households and years ahead. considerable sums of money. It is estimated that the The warm home discount scheme was rightly extended amount is in the order of £75 to £100 for those households by the Government last month, but we still have no idea on the default price tariffs. about what that means for the amount of the discount However, as hon. Members will know, and as has or whether coverage will be extended to customers who been mentioned, the cap was introduced only as a sign up with smaller energy providers, for example. We temporary measure until such time as it could be proven need urgent clarity on how that scheme will work going that conditions for effective competition in the market forward. existed. Those conditions clearly still do not yet exist. In its last iteration, the energy companies obligation, We were pleased that the cap has been extended for a which the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk further year after Ofgem reported as much to the referred to, focused almost exclusively on low-income Government, but issues of concern remain. The hon. and vulnerable households. We know that it can make a Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk spoke about contribution to reducing fuel poverty through energy the really important one of pre-payment meters. efficiency measures, and hence lower bills for at-risk We know that people on pre-payment meters are households. However, the ECO is now scheduled to run often fuel-poor customers. The energy price cap has only to 2022. We need urgent confirmation from the folded into it the previously existing pre-payment meter Government that it will be extended beyond that date, price cap, which will lapse at the end of this year. and that the cuts made to its overall funding at the time Although protection for those who access their energy when its focus was revised will be restored. in that way will continue to some extent through the Beyond the targeted schemes that exist, the best way default tariff price cap, I hope the Minister agrees that in the long term to combat fuel poverty is to design it we have to ensure that they are afforded long-term out—to systematically insulate and make more energy- protection when the cap as a whole is lifted, as it efficient the homes in which those in fuel poverty live, inevitably will be. which are largely, it has to be said, in the private and This has been a good and important debate, albeit an social rented sectors. In most European countries, not under-subscribed one for the reasons that the SNP just those with more temperate climates, the concept of spokesperson mentioned. There is a huge amount of fuel poverty is largely alien because the underlying interest in this problem, as there should be given its efficiency of their housing stock is such that bills are scale. The Opposition urge the Government to devise a entirely manageable by the vast majority of households. more comprehensive strategy on fuel poverty—one that That is not the case across the UK, where we still have addresses price, efficiency and problems of coverage some of the worst insulated and least energy-efficient and access, as well as the root causes. I hope that the housing stock in Europe. Minister can provide the House with some reassurance As the Scottish National party spokesperson mentioned, that his Department is at least thinking along those the manifesto on which Conservative Members stood in lines. the last general election contained a commitment to spend more than £9 billion on uprating energy efficiency 2.19 pm in homes, including a £2.5 billion home upgrade grant scheme and a £3.8 billion social housing discount fund. The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth We have yet to see any sign of either measure or, I would (Kwasi Kwarteng): It is a pleasure to speak under your argue, any real commitment to rapidly overhauling and chairmanship, Ms Rees, in this excellent debate on a upgrading the UK’s housing stock. really important issue. I cannot think of a more important Although the amount allocated to the recent green issue that the House could debate; very few are more homes grant is welcome, as an emergency measure important and more relevant to people’s lives than fuel lasting only for this financial year, and with some real poverty. I congratulate the hon. Member for Linlithgow questions about how effectively it can be delivered over and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) on securing this important that period, there is a real risk that it will ultimately debate. have very little effect. Current statutory energy efficiency The challenges of fuel poverty and the affordability commitments require all fuel-poor homes in England to of energy for households are a huge concern for be levelled up to the energy efficiency standards of a everybody—not just for members of Opposition parties, current new-build home. At present, the Government but for the Government. I particularly share the concerns are a very long way away from meeting those commitments, about fuel poverty relating to health issues, both physical and we need urgent action to get us back on track. and mental, and the difficulties people are experiencing So far I have focused on general issues relating to fuel now because of the coronavirus pandemic. Obviously, poverty, but the title of the debate invites us to pay my view of what the Government have been doing and particular attention to the role of the energy price cap. of the importance with which we regard these issues will The Opposition very much welcomed the price cap be slightly different from that of Opposition Members, when it was introduced in January last year. After all, it but I can assure the House that the Government take was an idea—as the Minister may recall, labelled a the issue of fuel poverty extremely seriously. semi-Marxist proposal by his party—that we put forward As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, fuel poverty is a in our prospectus in the 2015 general election. devolved matter, with England, Wales, Northern Ireland There was a clear need for a cap to address the issue and Scotland all having their own fuel poverty targets, of companies overcharging consumers, manipulating their own policies and in many cases their own definitions. the goodwill of loyal customers and exploiting so-called However, we all absolutely share the view that fuel sticky customers, many of whom are among the most poverty is a critical issue. 233WH Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps19 NOVEMBER 2020 Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps 234WH

[Kwasi Kwarteng] also a local authority delivery element that considers households of all tenors and of all descriptions within a It is not a new issue. In 2015, we published a fuel household income of under £30,000. Local authorities poverty strategy for England, which set out the will shortly set out detailed eligibility criteria for that. Government’s approach to tackling fuel poverty then. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich The hon. Gentleman is quite right to say that we should (Matthew Pennycook) suggested that there would not publish a new fuel poverty strategy. We had wanted to be time to fully implement the green homes grant. We publish it at the end of this year, but we are very hopeful are looking at that, and there is some flexibility in the that we can get it out early next year, and it is absolutely system. I look forward to making the case that we critical that we do so. should perhaps extend it, and there may already have We are also committed to ensuring that there is been an announcement in that respect. appropriate scrutiny, so I am very happy to spend some time dealing with some of the issues raised in the [SIOBHAIN MCDONAGH in the Chair] debate. Obviously, I cannot deal with every single issue that has been touched on. We have talked about power Alan Brown: The Minister will be aware some hon. generation, fuel poverty and the nature of the devolved Members have also raised concerns that people in many settlement—it has been a wide-ranging debate—and I constituencies have been unable to get the free quotes will try to deal with some of the issues. It is vital that we required from approved suppliers to progress. Will the work together to tackle this really important problem. Government address that as well? The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich Kwasi Kwarteng: Absolutely. I suggested that there (Matthew Pennycook) was good enough to mention the was flexibility in the scheme. One of the reasons that warm home discount, which was not referred to in any there would be flexibility is that we are trying to increase of the speeches by SNP Members. Of course, the warm the number of installers who have the trust mark home discount that he was good enough to mention is a accreditation, so that they can do the work. It is a good critical part of the Government’s fight against fuel scheme, and it goes some way towards meeting the poverty. It provides financial assistance to more than manifesto commitment mentioned with respect to the 3 million low-income and vulnerable households each £9.2 billion. There is clearly more work to be done and I winter, and each one of those households benefits to the fully accept that, but we have made a start. It would be tune of £140 a year roughly, which represents £3.5 billion irresponsible to say that the Government are “indifferent” 1 of public money and is a significant contribution. It to the problem, as was suggested by the Business, Energy does not abolish the problem but it is a significant and Industrial Strategy Committee.Weare not “indifferent” contribution, and I think that any fair-minded participant to this important issue, though there may be disagreements in this debate would have acknowledged that. I am as to how best to tackle it. It would be wrong to suggest grateful to the hon. Gentleman for doing so. that we are “indifferent” to that critical and hugely We have already consulted on extending the scheme important problem. until March 2022, recognising that it offers vital support The energy price cap was mentioned, and that opens to people in this country, and we are considering how a up a whole new avenue of debate. Clearly that has had a version of the scheme, or even the scheme itself, can role in not only helping people in straitened circumstances, perhaps be extended beyond 2022. These are matters of but in helping industry. It has meant that the industry grave consideration. can, overall, be more productive and efficient. That Members mentioned the energy company obligation obviously has the effect of driving down costs and and that, too, is a scheme that has helped people in fuel thereby driving down prices.Weare committed to ensuring poverty to improve the energy efficiency of their homes. fair energy prices for consumers, and that is why we It is another great GB-wide scheme, which is worth introduced the price cap on default energy tariffs in £640 million a year, and it has made an impact in 2019. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich improving the energy efficiency of homes across the mentioned that it was part of the Labour manifesto country. Since it began in 2013, under—dare I say many years ago before he even got into the House. I it?—this Government, nearly 2.8 million energy efficiency think it was in 2013—the election was in 2015. Clearly, measures have been installed in over 2.1 million homes. however,there was an issue and the Government accepted Again, that is making an impact. The ECO has always that.Weintroducedtherequisitelegislation.Itisextraordinary been focused on supporting low-income and vulnerable that we are being criticised for adopting the policy households, providing improvements to give a long-term suggested by the Opposition with which we have, over benefit to those households. Again, we are planning to time, agreed. That shows that the Government do listen consult on proposed changes to the scheme in 2021; we to ideas, from whichever quarter those ideas may arise. want to see how any future scheme can contribute to The default price cap today protects around 11 million meeting actual targets. consumers, and a further 4 million households are Another form of assistance and another scheme, which protected by the prepayment meter price cap from 2021 Members were good enough to refer to, is the green when that is introduced. It is a big intervention in the homes grant. It was launched only in September and is a way the energy market works and shows that we have a £2 billion programme to improve the energy efficiency non-ideological approach to the issue. It also shows the of homes in England. Other attendant fuel poverty Government’s determination to support hard-pressed schemes are available in Scotland, Wales and Northern energy consumers. Ireland. I remind the House that the green homes grant In my concluding remarks, I will talk specifically offers low-income, vulnerable and fuel-poor households about the covid-19 response. I and the Government are up to £10,000 for the installation of energy-efficient and fully aware that the covid-19 pandemic poses unprecedented low-carbon heating measures in their homes. There is and unusual problems with respect to fuel poverty. I was 1.[Official Report, 16 December 2020, Vol. 686, c. 2MC.] 235WH Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps 19 NOVEMBER 2020 236WH struck by the suggestion from the hon. Member for The Future of Work Kilmarnock and Loudon that fuel bills had risen by 37% or maybe it was his colleague the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk. I fully accept that it is a 3 pm huge increase. Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): I beg to From the outset of the crisis the Government recognised move, that the covid-19 pandemic would have a huge impact That this House has considered the future of work. on household incomes and would lead to more straitened circumstances. That is why the Department for Business, It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Energy and Industrial Strategy acted swiftly to secure Ms McDonagh. I am grateful to the Backbench Business an agreement with energy suppliers to support consumers Committee for granting the time for this debate. impacted by coronavirus. In fact, one of the first calls It is troubling that we are having this debate against that I made was to try to organise a response, and the the background of a continuing pandemic, which greatly suppliers understood the difficult circumstances that we affects how we can engage with the issue. Unfortunately, were in. We managed to reach an agreement as early as this House itself is a case study of how the world of March, which provided real support for those who work has not kept pace with events and technological needed help the most. advantages that could have allowed much wider The energy companies have responded reasonably participation in this debate. I have had to travel all the well. There is a broad understanding in the sector about way from East Renfrewshire to speak here, despite the the nature of the problems. We have done a huge existence of perfectly good digital options. That is amount. People talked about poverty in general, and nonsensical in the middle of a pandemic. the Government have spent unprecedented amounts to As a member of the Chartered Institute of Personnel protect jobs and incomes.Wehave extended the coronavirus and Development, I have a particular interest in the terms job retention scheme until the end of March, which has and the subject of this debate. I thank the CIPD for its been welcomed across the country.Wehave also increased work on this issue, as well as the Institute for the Future the third self-employed grant and provided an uplift to of Work, Scope, the disability charity, the City & Guilds universal credit, which was mentioned. I am happy to Group, the Chartered Management Institute, the Scottish say that we have responded to the concerns by providing Trades Union Congress, trade unions, local authorities an uplift to universal credit. and many others that are contributing to this debate. It We have also increased the upfront guarantee of is clear to them all and to workers all over Scotland and funding for the devolved Administrations from £14 billion beyond that we cannot and must not go back to the to £16 billion on top of the spring Budget 2020 funding. same old same old. The status quo was not right before, Despite all of the support and the unprecedented level and it is certainly not right for the future. of intervention, it is a sad fact that many households We need to ask ourselves searching questions about will struggle with their energy bills this winter. We are the way work should look, including about hybrid or absolutely focused on that and I speak to energy suppliers remote working and the prospect of a shorter working all the time about how best we can meet the challenges. week, and the fundamental question about what value From 15 December this year, new rules will require we place on the jobs of those who keep us, our countries energy companies to identify self-disconnecting prepayment and our families functioning and safe. We need to tackle meter customers, people who are confronted often with head-on the fact that structural inequality is inbuilt in the very harsh dilemma that was pointed out and choose the fabric and systems of work, and use technology to take themselves out of the prepayment meter scheme. more wisely in the future to ensure that bias on grounds We require energy companies to offer them support to of race, sex and disability, to name a few, is stripped out stay on supply and to offer emergency and family-friendly of recruitment and promotion decisions. We need to do hours and credit to all prepayment meter customers. better, and this is the time to take that reality forward. That is a world where we are driving change to meet the very problem that the hon. Member for Linlithgow and I have spent much of my professional life looking at East Falkirk so ably identified. work from the perspective of the employer-employee In the spirit of cross-party co-operation, I hope I relationship. However, working in further education, I have always extended a warm hand to Members to also contributed to preparing young people for work, discuss the issues. We have had an excellent debate. Like and increasingly helping older people move to the next the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk, I phase of a multifaceted working life. regret the fact that more right hon. and hon. Members The world of work, and with it the education and could not participate today, but I am sure the question skills sector, changed significantly long before covid, will be revisited soon. I will be very happy to attend a but this crisis means that we must take stock and further debate if that is what Members want and also to re-examine what the future of work should look like. A meet individual Members on a face-to-face basis to recent report by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s discuss these really important issues. Task Force on the Work of the Future mirrors the Question put and agreed to. findings of the UK’s Future of Work Commission. Resolved, Both reports highlight that technological change is not That this House has considered fuel poverty and energy price eliminating work; it is replacing existing work and creating caps. new work. More importantly, it is changing the quality of jobs and access to them, driving new forms of Siobhain McDonagh (in the Chair): I will suspend the polarisation and work inequality. It is estimated that sitting until 3 pm. 60% of the jobs being done today in America did not 2.33 pm exist in 1940; the figures for Scotland and the UK may Sitting suspended. not differ greatly. 237WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 238WH

[Kirsten Oswald] indicate if that call has been heard. The Scottish Government have announced a £60 million young person’s Change in the world of work is constant, but too guarantee, to ensure that everyone aged between 16 and often the process has been poorly handled, and many 24 has the opportunity of work, education or training. parts of the UK bear the scars. As we move beyond this Scotland will also have a £25 million national training pandemic, we have to learn from past mistakes. The transition fund, to help up to 10,000 people aged 25 or effect of previous Conservative Governments can be over to develop the skills required to move into sectors seen in too many areas of deep-rooted deprivation with the greatest potential for growth. across the UK, where existing jobs were closed down More needs to be done, but with major economic and before investment in new jobs and skills could build an fiscal powers resting with the Treasury, the Scottish alternative future. Government need Treasury backing to go further. Rather The brutality of this transition at its worst was recalled than bypassing them, as the UK Government shamefully in Scotland just last month. The Scottish Government plan to do, the Scottish Government need the Treasury are recommending that hundreds of Scottish miners be to work with them to address Scotland’s needs in a way pardoned for offences that they were convicted of 35 years that meets Scotland’s aspirations. Scotland does not ago as they struggled to defend their jobs, their industry want another Dido Harding or Rupert Soames to be and the wellbeing of their communities against an parachuted in to tell us what we need and what we have onslaught from Margaret Thatcher’s Government. As to do. the Chancellor has acknowledged, although it would be We must look at creating a real baseline of fairness better if he also acted on this, a decent society should below which people do not fall, whether they are in not leave people behind. work, education or employment, or are temporarily or The issue we are talking about today are profound permanently displaced from the workforce. As an and long term. Changes that fundamentally shift the alternative, we in the SNP are calling for changes in world of work include developments in technology, the approach, raising the basic floor of protection and reality of climate change and catastrophes such as wars; welfare, and for a proper examination of alternatives, and clearly this pandemic is having a huge impact on such as a universal basic income that recognises and employment. The situation is not helped by a blundering, supports people as individuals. It is support for people, blustering Prime Minister and a dithering UK Government, for workers and for transition between jobs, firms and who leave announcements of support until they are too sectors that needs urgent attention from the Government, late to stop firms folding and jobs being lost. Andy not just protecting the status quo of businesses that are Haldane, chief economist at the Bank of England, has not required to maintain fair work standards or reduce said that we are at risk of returning to 1980s levels of executive pay or shareholder pay-outs. unemployment—truly a return to the Thatcher years. Through their flagship Fair Work First policy, the Recovery from the pandemic will not be helped by Scottish Government lead the way. They are rewarding the Prime Minister delivering a half-baked Brexit that and encouraging employers to adopt fair work practices will undermine many sectors of the economy. According by attaching fair work criteria to grants and other to the latest employer survey by the Chartered Institute funding and to contracts awarded by and across the of Personnel and Development, the rise in unemployment public sector. They ask employers to commit to paying will be accompanied by a reduction in training investment, the real living wage, making no inappropriate use of reinforcing a long-standing trend of declining investment zero-hours contracts, and providing channels for an in UK workplace training. Just as George Osborne’s effective voice for workers, such as trade union recognition. austerity agenda held back recovery post-2008, the UK I was pleased to back the Independent Workers Union cannot reshape its economy on the back of slashed of Great Britain in its fight for equal protection between training budgets. those who work in the gig economy and those on Kirstie Donnelly, the chief executive of the City & standard employment contracts. Shamefully, some Guilds Group, has warned that businesses that rely on workers in the gig economy have continued to operate during the pandemic but have not “mass unemployment…left unchecked, will scar the futures of a accepted responsibility for the health and safety of their generation”. workforce. We cannot build a resilient and flexible City & Guilds has highlighted the difficulty in accessing labour market by disadvantaging even further the most work for those who were already disadvantaged, with disadvantaged in our society, or by stripping workers of lower use of personal contacts, previous employers or the rights that we all used to take for granted. That is recruitment consultants. Although working from home why my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and can be valuable, it is not a panacea. A recent survey Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) is working across found that those with the lowest household income parties on his Employment (Dismissal and Re-employment) were six times less likely to be able to work from home. (No. 2) Bill, which has the backing of major trade Also, the sectors most impacted by covid include those unions including Unite,the British Airline Pilots Association with the highest share of workers from black, Asian and GMB Scotland. It is a response to disgraceful and minority ethnic communities, and with its evident actions by companies including Centrica and British effect on those with disabilities or underlying health Airways, which tried to use the cover of the pandemic conditions, the economic impact of this pandemic will to lay off thousands of workers, only to rehire them on be projected into the future unless there is conscious diminished terms. mitigation. The UK Government have said that they will not use Kirstie Donnelly is calling on the Government to Brexit to erode workers’ rights. Those are two real redirect funding to support skills development that opportunities for them to prove it. Will the Minister promotes social mobility; perhaps the Minister can make it clear that the Government accept the ruling of 239WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 240WH the High Court, and take the action needed to implement The growth of home working has also led to a it? Will she also commit to backing my hon. Friend’s growing interest in, and growing concern about, such Bill, or to bringing forward similar provisions in the techniques as keyboard and camera monitoring. In a Government’s own employment Bill to protect and recent survey, the trade union Prospect found that only enhance workers’ rights, as was promised in the Queen’s a third of workers had even heard of such techniques. Speech? If the UK Government will not act, they That should be of concern to us all. should devolve the necessary powers and let the Scottish We need to look across this complex subject as a Government continue to match or exceed EU standards. matter of urgency.We need a dedicated work 5.0 strategy, After all, that is what was promised, and Scotland never and it needs to be produced jointly with civil society, voted to leave the EU in the first place. It is no wonder trade unions and academics, as well as with businesses, that people increasingly see a better independent future. to ensure that we can find a fair, inclusive and forward- The pandemic has accelerated existing trends in the looking approach to work. We need the UK Government world of work. How we build on the technologies and to do what the Scottish Social Justice and Fairness the sectors that have expanded since March this year Commission is already doing. As we approach Brexit, may mark the pandemic as a tipping point for changes that has never been more important. in the world of work and the economy. If we want to In conclusion, I reflect on the comment by David build back fairer and stronger, we need to be clear about Autor, co-chair of the MIT future of work report, what we want to achieve. The Future of Work Commission which was published yesterday. He said: argues that the purpose of work is to support health “The sky is not falling, but it is…lowering.” and wellbeing, and to enable individuals to flourish. This UK Government need to reprioritise future good Economic policy should reflect that goal. A member of work as a cross-cutting role and they need to act now. the commission, Professor Michael Sandel, said: “The pandemic has highlighted a familiar problem: The best-paying Siobhain McDonagh (in the Chair): We have five jobs are not necessarily the ones that contribute most to the speakers in the debate before we go to the Front-Bench common good, and some low-paying jobs have greater social speakers, so I ask people to consider an informal time value than their market value would suggest.” limit of seven minutes. We can either reflect and act, or allow ourselves to be driven headlong by those keen to capitalise on the 3.15 pm position that they have gained over this unique period Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con): It is a pleasure to and hang the human consequences. serve under your chairmanship, Ms McDonagh. I The economic movement from high streets and retail congratulate the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire centres to digital platforms and delivery vans has without (Kirsten Oswald) on securing the debate. I recognise doubt pushed existing legislative and regulatory frameworks that there could be no more important subject to discuss to the limit. The court victory by the IWGB last week in this place. I am pleased that we are able to have this should just be a start in bringing them into alignment. discussion. I will range more widely than our immediate It is not acceptable for the operators of new technologies situation, but I will end with a word on where we are to prosper by stripping workers of their rights and and what Government might do. protections. They are misusing legislation designed to I will start with a quick scan of what has happened create flexibility to underpin a new dominance for the since the last recession. We may be entering a different interests of capital. The UK Government must recognise recession that is happening because demand is being that and act. choked off in the economy. The 2008 recession was The CIPD is working with the Institute for the Future caused because credit was suddenly cut off and that of Work and the Carnegie Trust to develop guidance to recession ended quite quickly because the Government ensure that investment in new technology optimises and the Bank of England pumped credit into economy. returns not only in organisational performance, but in That kept the banks afloat, and through them businesses job quality. The findings from that work must help to were able to borrow and stagger on. identify areas where legislative change is needed. It is The crucial issue is that the great bulk of the money one thing to have Jeff Bezos planning to use drones for that entered the economy after 2008 fed not into people’s deliveries, but the operators of global platforms must incomes, but into their assets, or the assets of those not be allowed to treat their workforce as drones, stripped people who had them. We had 10 years of growth until of basic levels of sick pay, never mind the enhanced this year, which is a modern record, but we also had the level that they should have during a pandemic to make lowest wage growth for 200 years. Median incomes sure that they can comfortably self-isolate when required. before covid were still lower than in 2008. Case studies and analysis by the Institute for the We have had a jobs miracle over the last decade, but Future of Work highlight imbalances in information, these were not jobs as we used to think of them. Two wealth and power that come from emerging global thirds were precarious. I do not mean to criticise the platforms. They demonstrate that our legal framework Governments since 2008 that took these steps because has not kept pace with the new automated technologies, things would have been far worse if those steps had not with their use of algorithmic and artificial intelligence-based been taken, but we need a different way out of this decision-assisting tools. The UK Government’s hands-off recession, if we can find one. Most of all, we need to approach to the issue is negligent and flies in the face of build a better economy that is fit for the times. commitments to address structural inequalities at work. The future of work is in large part a debate about We need a fresh approach if we are to ensure that automation. I recognise the truth of the claim, that in historical inequalities are not projected into the future. past times technology has not destroyed jobs but That is why I support the call for a new accountability created them, but I do not think that is going to for algorithms Act. happen this time around to any significant degree. For a 241WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 242WH

[Danny Kruger] Government to provide all the income for all the people, so that they do not have to work—which is, of course, start, the new industries that tech is creating are not the end result of the proposal for universal basic income. labour intensive. Some 50 years ago the world’s most valuable company, the telecom firm AT&T, employed Grahame Morris: No, it is not. 750,000 people. Today’s telecom giant, Google, which is worth about the same as AT&T in today’s money, Danny Kruger: I think it is dangerous to suggest that employs only 55,000 people—less than a tenth of AT&T’s it is possible for Government to subsidise all the incomes workforce. of all the people. We are fundamentally producers, not Crucially, previous tech revolutions replaced manual consumers. I also think that UBI would lead to inflation, labour,which allowed human beings to build new cognitive as the income that was passed to people would simply innovations that created jobs. This time we are seeing lead into higher costs, so we would need a better cognitive tasks taken over by the machines, not just management than that. with clerical work but with projects from design to law I have spoken of a dystopian future, but there is also and others. a positive vision. The lockdown has given us a glimpse There is a dystopian future, which the hon. Member of that different future for some people. In the future for East Renfrewshire helped to paint. In that future, more people will work from home. Fewer people will inequalities of wealth will get greater. People with assets work at all, in the common sense of the word, for a will get richer and those with the right skills will get remote boss in a big corporation or organisation. More more successful. Those without those skills and assets of our time will be spent with our families and helping will fight over the low-paid jobs that remain. As Daniel our neighbours, and new resources of care and creativity Susskind has shown in his book, “A World Without will be summoned from each of us. The Government Work,” many people will find themselves locked out of might directly subsidise some incomes, but in the future those jobs by their skills, their attitude or their location. that we want that will not be money for nothing; it will As the hon. Lady said, this year has accelerated be linked to productive, pro-social creative activity. Of trends that were already under way.The principal victims course, that is what we saw for some people during the economically of lockdown have been those in the insecure lockdown. We need it for everyone. jobs that have boomed in recent years. As the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire said, there Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is a benign scenario in which automation frees up human is making some important points, but would he accept beings to serve each other, while the machines serve the that there is no inevitability about this, and there is a machine. Let the robots manage the logistics, and we can role for Government? Yes, we need to identify potential do what human beings are uniquely capable of, because growth areas that offer high-skill and high-wage jobs, if there is really nothing in the ordinary way of human but we should not simply abdicate from those areas work that machines could not do, what is the point of where traditionally we have had a lead, for example in humans? What shall we do in the future? Happily, the highly-skilled engineering at Rolls-Royce in Derby, and answer is obvious. Humans should do what humans are allow those jobs to be offshored, so we lose that potential good at—namely the activities of care and creativity. forever more. We are good at looking after each other. Everyone Danny Kruger: I agree that there is an important role knows from their own lives the foundational need for for Government, both in cushioning the effects of change and value of human help when we are weak, at the start and in helping to nudge change in the direction where it and end of life and at moments of illness or trauma in will be the most beneficial for us all. We cannot stand in between. That giving of care might possibly be physically the way of what technology is doing to the world of possible for some automation of the near future, but it is work, but we can definitely make it a more comfortable unthinkable that we would ever want our children to be experience for our people. I agree with that. I shall come nursed by a machine, or a robot to hold our hand as we to what the Government might do in a moment. die. In the new age that we are entering, care will be Although there has been an acceleration of many of demanded more than ever, because our societies are the dangerous and destructive trends of recent years ageing. McKinsey reports that by 2030 there will be at least through the lockdown, we have also had a glimpse of a 300 million more people aged 65 and over than there are different future. I was going to say that the danger is now. Globally, the number of jobs related to healthcare having millions of people in forced unemployment, and social care could grow by 50 million by 2030. with all the harm that entails. The hon. Member for Automation is helping that trend. The duties of East Renfrewshire raised the prospect of universal basic hospitality,in retail, cafés, shops, banks and hotels—those income, but I do not believe that we as a species are are the jobs that human beings are good at. We notice ready for permanent idleness. that automation is helping that. Richard Sargeant has written that after the introduction of ATMs—cash Kirsten Oswald: I gently point out that universal machines—the number of bank tellers in the economy basic income is not in any way, shape or form about rose, because ATMs made the banks more efficient and enforced idleness. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to allowed the tellers, the human staff, to focus on the look around the subject and see what potential there is more complex human role of customer support. If we for better work, and more equal and fair work, under a are good at care, hospitality and customer service, we universal basic income system. are also good at creativity. I am talking about art and Danny Kruger: It may be that we are quibbling over design, digital innovation, horticulture, philosophy, place terms, and I recognise and accept that there is a role for making, sport, entertainment and education. We have Government in subsidising some wages. My concern is to use the emergence from the shadow of covid to build that there is danger in the idea that it is possible for back better.That means consciously orienting our economy 243WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 244WH and our education and skills systems towards those source: a 2013 article by Carl Frey and Michael Osborne functions of care and creativity. That will require and that suggested that nearly half of all jobs classified by help to create, as we saw in the lockdown, a more local, the US Bureau of Labor are vulnerable to automation. family-friendly and environmentally responsible society. This has been used to suggest the demise of many Let me finish on where we are now and the immediate millions of blue-collar jobs. Alongside that, in “The priorities. We recently had a great bust-up in the House Future of the Professions”, Richard and Daniel Susskind on the issue of children in families on low incomes and suggest that technological forces will dramatically rework how they are to be fed in the holidays. We finally white-collar jobs—lawyers, consultants, accountants and reached the right place on that, but I do not deny the health professionals. Reading these pieces makes one role that pressure from Parliament and the media played feel that almost no job is safe, but can we be so certain? in getting us there. We got the right result, which is a The approach to automation also corresponds, as has system whereby alongside more cash for families, which been said, with renewed interest in universal basic income. will be delivered in a targeted way through councils, we On the right, Milton Friedman, Hayek, Charles Murray are enabling more support to be provided through and Richard Nixon have all embraced it to roll back the communities. That is the model that we need overall. welfare state and replace it with an individualised transaction Yes, people need more cash, and we should consider between state and consumer. The left-wing case tends to whether the universal credit uplift should be continued focus on the basic human right to a level of subsistence or more flexibly targeted. However, more than money, to shield against work poverty or job loss. Historically, what we all need is people around us, and that is why I Tom Paine, Bertrand Russell, JK Galbraith and Lyndon am so passionate about civil society and its role. On Johnson and many others have supported it. The policy welfare, yes to generous universal credit, but I want to is also embraced by many silicon valley titans, presumably put in a word for universal support. The original corollary to offset their personal responsibilities for structural in the design of universal credit was civil society unemployment. We have seen an upsurge in interest in organisations getting alongside people who were basic income initiatives such as the Alaskan oil dividend unemployed to support them and their families. and the UBI pilots in Finland, Scotland, Canada, Oakland, Kickstart is a tremendous programme that the the Netherlands and New Zealand. Government have introduced to help young people get Much of this appears to be fuelled by the belief that into employment at this time. Already 20,000 new the robots are coming soon. Work is ending with the placements have been created and 300,000 are due over wholesale replacement of humans by machines. That the coming year. What it enables is more than just a job, begs the obvious question: what do we really know which might only be temporary anyway. Crucially, it about the future of work? How reliable is the data? My provides the real social support that young people need basic point is that technology is not destiny. Assertions to develop the skills, care and creativity that they and of technological disruption have always been around. the economy need. I urge employers—not just small In the 1930s, Keynes argued that by 2030 the average ones, but large ones as well—to make use of the gateway working week would be 15 hours long as new methods arrangement, which helps employers to recruit and of economising on labour exceeded its use. train young people and to develop the skills that will make them prosper. The future jobs fund, which was a similar programme introduced in 2008, had quite a high [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair.] drop-out rate, and we need to prevent that. We should be cautious about headlines on the future The activity holiday programme, universal support to of work that often derive from a single contested source. help people with employment and beyond, and the The Frey and Osborne analysis estimated that up to gateway system for the kickstart programme are a vision half of British jobs were threatened by automation. for a better future, so I will end on that point. That was famously used by the Bank of England two years later to assert that 15 million jobs were at risk. How 3.26 pm confident should we be about such assertions, not least because wildly different estimates co-exist? For instance, Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Rainham) (Lab): I welcome McKinsey Global has suggested that only 5% of jobs today’s debate and the recent establishment of an all-party are candidates for full automation. Clearly, as has been group on the future of work, which will be helped by mentioned, jobs will be created by automation, not just the Institute for the Future of Work. destroyed. For example, Frey and Osborne’s projections I want to emphasise a couple of points that have do not consider new jobs created in health and social already been made and talk about some of the assumptions care, the creative industries, leisure, in sectors that require that form much of the debate about the future of work. interpersonal human skills, and in the technology and Even before the pandemic took grip, the future of work telecommunications sectors. Moreover, many of these was attracting widespread attention, reflecting a widespread studies on the effects of automation do not contain any belief that the robots were coming. McAfee and timelines. I read this morning about a McKinsey report Brynjolfsson of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology based on an analysis of 800 occupations, which estimated have suggested that automation and artificial intelligence that half of all work activities could be automated by are powering a second machine age that is equivalent to 2055, but then said the first industrial revolution. Writers such as Martin Ford have confirmed these technological shifts, and “this could happen up to 20 years earlier or later”. such books shape a narrative of epic technological So the data is pretty unreliable. change, often described as the fourth industrial revolution. Many of these studies also underplay patterns of Numerous tabloid headlines have reported the likely labour regulation that can help or hinder automation. displaced jobs through automation. Many of the most The classic example is one of de-automation, literally, threatening estimates can be traced back to a single through the resurgence of thousands of hand car washes 245WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 246WH

[Jon Cruddas] planning ahead for the world of work. Perhaps the subtitle for this debate on the future of work should be and the disappearance of the automated alternative, “Building Back Better”. I am firmly convinced that driven by the exploitation of migrant labour in the there must be a role for Government in building back deregulated British labour market. These are questions better; it cannot simply be left to the markets or a of politics, not technological destiny. matter of nudging. When it comes to many of the To return to the statistics briefly, the Organisation for employment practices that we have seen arising from Economic Co-operation and Development estimates the pandemic, notably fire-and-rehire, the Government that 9% of jobs are automatable, yet it also suggests that must intervene and stop that happening. that is an overestimate, given the likely political and I am sure that everyone in this room would agree that social constraints, redeployment and future job generation. whatever the future of work looks like, trade unionism It concludes that must be at the heart of it if we are to see well-paid, “automation and digitalisation are unlikely to destroy large numbers highly skilled and secure jobs not just for ourselves, but of jobs.” for our children and our children’s children. I have been A TUC paper estimates between 10% and 30% of jobs a member of a trade union, and indeed of the Labour to be at risk, yet concludes that the likelihood is that party, since I was 16, so an awfully long time now. In those jobs could be replaced by new occupations and fact, I think it is since I was 15—I may have lied about professions. The evidence is at best inconclusive. The my age. UK Government do not appear excessively worried. It would be remiss of me, as chair of Unite the Their industrial strategy White Paper suggests a growing union’s parliamentary group—[Interruption.] Thank demand for high-skilled jobs and anticipates an extra you, comrades. It would be remiss of me not to refer to 1.8 million new jobs in the next 10 years. That was the strike action that Unite members are being forced to before the pandemic, obviously. take at the Barnoldswick factory, birthplace of the jet In a thorough review of the literature, Phil Brown engine, where Rolls-Royce is cutting 350 highly skilled and his colleagues at Cardiff University concluded that jobs and moving the work offshore. It is fair to say that technology is not destiny and that human decisions will workers at Barnoldswick are cutting-edge, world-beating— determine the future of work. Their study states: quite simply, the best in the business. Those are surely exactly the sorts of jobs that we need to keep, create and “Most studies focus on the potential for automation, without incorporating into their models economic and social factors that encourage, yet Rolls-Royce—sadly, the Government seem may stimulate or deter the replacement of workers by technology.” to be standing idly by—is sending them abroad, to In other words, politics. So the future is far from certain; Singapore, and ironically to a factory that the Barnoldswick it depends on the policy and political choices that we workforce helped to set up. They had been given promises make. that doing so would never put the home site at risk, but that has turned out to be a gross betrayal of loyal staff In recent years, UK labour markets have seen a by Rolls-Royce management. significant increase in atypical work, including elements It is no wonder that Rolls-Royce workers are striking of the gig economy. Prior to the pandemic there were to save the jobs. They are doing so not just for themselves some 5 million self-employed, 1 million workers on and their families, but for future generations and for zero-hours contracts and 800,000 agency workers—since their community. The strike, which was completely 2008, there have been rises of 24%, 450% and 46% avoidable, is now set to continue until Christmas eve respectively. Those comparatively high numbers are the and quite possibly beyond that. It is not a pleasant product of our labour law and policy choices, resulting experience to be on the picket line at this time of year, in work that is less regulated and protected and contributes when it is cold and dark, but their cause is just. to sluggish wage and productivity growth. The workers will not back down, and neither will I will conclude with a few points. First, there is little their union. The jobs are simply too valuable, not just consensus about future technological disruption. Secondly, for the workers and their community but for the whole the research is contested and, at best, unclear. Thirdly, it economy.It is a battle—the battle for Barnoldswick—and is prone to speculation and contains serious methodological they must not lose it, because let us be clear that once flaws. This suggests that a more cautious approach is the jobs go, they will be gone for good. It is an open required, with an emphasis on our political choices secret that these 350 redundancies, on top of the 500 rather than reverting to conjecture fuelled by technological that have already taken place over the last two years, determinism. There is nothing inevitable about the future would almost certainly spell the end of that historic site. of work. There are political choices about creating and With only about 150 workers left, the site will simply rewarding good work and in upholding the dignity of become unviable. It is not overstating the case to say labour, cruelly exposed by the pandemic. That is why it that that would be nothing less than ripping the heart is so good that we are discussing the subject in Parliament out of the community. It would be an appalling legacy this afternoon. I congratulate the hon. Member for for the iconic Rolls-Royce brand. East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) on securing the The Government should not be sitting on their hands. debate. People should bear it in mind that Rolls-Royce is doing all that while benefiting from billions of pounds of 3.34 pm taxpayer support—support that is meant to be keeping Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): It is an absolute jobs in industry going during the pandemic. It gets pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. worse, because specifically the company is set to receive I congratulate the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire another £50 million of Government funding for producing (Kirsten Oswald) on securing this important debate, a new component for the world-beating UltraFan engine, and I compliment her on her speech and for acknowledging Rolls-Royce’s next generation of green jet engines. But the important role that the trade unions must play in that must be completed by Christmas for the company 247WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 248WH to get the money. I am told that Rolls-Royce is currently We have to decide what kind of economy we want to lobbying the Government to give it an extension to that build. There have obviously been advances in technology deadline, and Rolls-Royce is blaming covid for the and automation, but the word “growth” was mentioned delay, but that simply is not the case; it is the strike that again in this debate, and we have to understand what it is preventing Rolls-Royce from meeting the deadline. means. Does it mean depth, or does it mean forever The workers of Barnoldswick assure me that if the chasing profits for those at the top of organisations at dispute were resolved tomorrow or even today, they the expense of workers? could produce that part by Christmas, and only the I want the Minister to comment on how her Government Barnoldswick workers can make the component, so let view economic thinking such as that of Kate Raworth, us be absolutely clear about that. No other factory and who is looking at things such as doughnut economics no other workforce in the world have the skills to do and the value being put in, and Julian Richer, whose that, because if it were possible elsewhere, believe me, work on the good business charter looks at how work we can be absolutely certain that Rolls-Royce would be can have a more ethical base, including a real living sending that work there. It is ultra-high-end engineering, wage, environmental responsibility, fairer hours, paying and it needs the world-beating engineers at Barnoldswick fair tax, employee wellbeing, a commitment to customers, to deliver the goods. employee representation through a trade union, diversity, The Government have a very easy way to end this inclusion, timely payments to suppliers and ethical sourcing. dispute. The have the power to end it tomorrow if they That would reshape the economy for the future in a far want to. They can simply refuse to extend the deadline better, qualitative way. for Rolls-Royce, which would mean that it had to get Before I talk about my constituency, which is due to back to the negotiations, take the job cuts off the table be the worst-hit area in the country from the current and commit to a viable future for Barnoldswick. economic crisis—we could see unemployment rise from In my capacity of the chair of the Unite the union 2.8% last year to 27% next year, because the recovery parliamentary group, I have written to the Rolls-Royce from the last economic crisis was built on insecure chief executive, Mr Warren East, asking him to take a jobs—I want to highlight three areas where we could leaf out of the book of the Barnoldswick workers and see real movement in reshaping the economy. First, we show some loyalty to Barnoldswick, the community should build sectoral councils. The fragmentation of and the iconic Rolls-Royce brand itself. If Rolls-Royce the economy is not helping our response, so we need the cares about its bottom line—we can all be sure that it economy to come together. Establishing sectoral councils does—that should force it back to the table, but time is will provide a framework for employers, workers, trade running out. I want to take this opportunity to express unions, academics and industrial leaders to come together, my solidarity with the Rolls-Royce strikers. I once again build back better, institute a skills analysis and look at offer my full support to them in this historic battle for the economic opportunities of those sectors. The that historic site, and I hope that other Members will fragmentation is preventing that from happening, but offer their support and solidarity too. linking with local and devolved authorities and local enterprise partnerships would be a real opportunity to focus on the future and ensure that the big issues such 3.40 pm as climate mitigation are at the heart of the discussions. It is also about building a base for sectoral negotiations Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is a to determine things such as pay, pensions terms and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. workers’ conditions in those sectors. I thank the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) for introducing the debate. Secondly, I want to look at the university and further education sector. I have to say that I was disappointed It is always a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the by the debate earlier this week on the union learning Member for Easington (Grahame Morris). He is absolutely fund and the opportunity it brings. Education is at the right to speak up for the Rolls-Royce workers. We are heart of growth: if we enable people to reach their seeing that the opportunities for employers come on the potential and the extent of their skills, we can do so back of working people when they offshore jobs. That much more in local economies. is one of the biggest threats to our economy, and I We see real under-employment in the city of York in support Unite in its battles against employers who have my constituency. The two universities have now come done such things. together with the two further education colleges to form The reason why the people of Barnoldswick have Higher York in order to shape the economy, but we come to our attention is very much at the heart of my need the education sector to have a more central role in speech. Work defines us; it gives us dignity. It is where establishing the future of the economy, looking at things we spend most of our waking hours, build our security such as the skills gap and inequality, and at the wider and friendships, display our skills, and contribute to community interest—not just from the perspective of society. Without work, we lose our identity, purpose education alone, and not just looking at higher-end and self-worth. skills. In my city, 30,000 people work in areas such as Tragically, for many, work has been hardly an edifying retail, tourism and hospitality. Those jobs will not be experience in recent times. Slavery conditions, poverty there next week, next month and possibly next year, and wages, insecurity and uncertainty have framed the working we therefore need the university and further education experience for too many. Recently, we have seen a sharp sector to intervene and to address the many challenges increase in zero-hours contracts, on which many people that we face. languish at the behest of their employers. Many jobs, Perhaps the most difficult conversation that any of us good and bad, hang in the balance as we face a catastrophic have had over the past eight months has been with small tsunami of job losses. We have to build back better. employers and the self-employed, who have poured 249WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 250WH

[Rachael Maskell] time that I have followed the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) in Westminster Hall. I do everything into their businesses—their money, their time, not know whether we are a pair—one speaks and then their resources and their lives—only to see them melt the other speaks—but I have always followed her. That away without Government support. In building back may be how life is, but there we are. for the future, we need to build more resilience into It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. These are business by building collective support and looking at incredibly worrying times for the nation—for those more social models of business support, to ensure that with vulnerable family and loved ones, for those with businesses are more sustainable in the future as they small businesses, and for those with jobs in various move forward—looking at the co-operative models and industries. The minimum wage is really a minimum for social enterprises that have good reach into their those who have had their hours reduced; they cannot communities and real roots, which can address some of even pay their bills. We do not have all the answers in the real challenges around employment, too. this place, and we do not know what tomorrow will I turn briefly to my constituency of York Central. bring, but we know that we need to work to give Already the high street is the worst impacted in the opportunities no matter what comes with the new days. We country—we have lost around 60 businesses to date, look with expectation to the Minister in relation to that. and I daresay there will be many more to come. As Unison has given me a briefing, and I want to use some those businesses have been struggling, Government grants of those facts in my speech. We are facing the worst jobs have been slipping through their fingers into the hands crisis in a generation. Up to 1 million people on furlough of leaseholders who live offshore and do not pay their are in jobs that will not return after covid-19. Those people taxes in our country. The taxpayer is subsidising that are significantly less likely to have qualifications than lifestyle, and hard-working people in our local businesses the general population, which will have an impact on and shops do not see any of the benefits. There has to the jobs that will be available to them. Some 130,000 of be responsibility when the Government hand out resources. those people do not have an equivalent to a level-2 Although they are saying they are supporting these qualification, and a further 250,000 do not have a times, we have to look where that money is ending level-3, so the ability to support people who lose jobs in up—it is certainly not ending up supporting business. I such sectors depends on the support available to them. call on the Minister to look at how we can have proper investment and a responsibility put on property tycoons We always look to the Government and the Minister to ensure that the money is not just invested in their tax for help because that is their job. They have been voted havens. in by the people and tasked with providing support, and I believe that they have a responsibility to do so, so how On a green new deal, the BioYorkshire project is can we help people in those sectors? The number of incredible.It will create 4,000 jobs and retrain 25,000 people young people experiencing long-term unemployment to have the skills to bring about a real revolution in the has tripled over the last quarter—some 33,000 of 18 to bio-economy, putting York at the heart of that—not 24-year-olds. A further 65,000 have been out of work just in the UK, but globally. The Government are tying between one and two years, with the risk of long-term this to a devolution deal that could be two and a half unemployment should the job climate persist. years away, but we need investment in those jobs and skills in York now. Before next Wednesday, can the That is all very concerning given that we know the Minister have words in order to bring that forward, so scarring related to long-term unemployment for young that we can start the work in creating the jobs that we people. It may impact their future job opportunities, are losing hand over fist at the moment? earning potential, and physical and mental health. Take the effect of coronavirus in my own area. The Library’s Finally, and most importantly, if we are to have a provision of constituency claimants shows, using what strong future of work, we need to protect workers’ they refer to as the alternative account, that there were rights and to think about the real challenges that workers 3,035 unemployed claimants in Strangford in August face in the workplace today. After 50 years of looking at 2020, which is some 1,400 higher than in August 2019. health and safety, it is timely that we now have a health, That trend is worrying—even more so when we realise safety and wellbeing commission to look at the wellbeing that those who are on furlough will potentially be of workers. We know that issues such as mental health, added to it. It is 5.4% of the population aged 16 to 64. bullying in the workplace and even the fallout of That was what it was when I came to this House in occupational health services were not discussed 50 years 2010, and we are back there today, unfortunately. It is ago. We do not have a legislative framework to protect deeply disturbing. workers, particularly those who experience issues such as stress, poor mental health and bullying. We need to The furlough scheme extension is welcome. We thank ensure that such a framework is introduced. Finally, we the Government for all that they have done. We will not need to introduce a right to learn and to ensure that the be churlish about it because many people are in jobs union learning fund is invested in, because this is the today because of the commitment that the Government opportunity to rebuild our economy. made, but we must do more to ensure that people have jobs to come back to. Small and medium-sized businesses Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): A Westminster in particular have vulnerable staff who are so stressed Hall debate would not be complete without Jim Shannon. about going back to work that they are unable to return. Again, I believe that the Minister and the 3.49 pm Government must take steps to invest in job protection Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): You are very kind, and in future jobs. Mr Hollobone. I thank the hon. Member for East I am thinking of the plethora of small, independent Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) for setting the scene, shops and businesses. I will give one example, because it and everyone who has contributed. This is the second comes to mind: a small kelp shop. Kelp is basically 251WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 252WH seaweed. This person has found a market for it, made a required to bear that in mind. There are huge challenges, business out of it, and then came a cropper due to that I will come on to, but equally, we have seen how covid-19. There were many one-person starters that Zoom has transformed with our very own eyes in these were full of hope for the future. I believe that those last few months. workers are on universal credit while applying for a New jobs have come about, but sadly, far too many new job. jobs have been lost. Therefore, the first target has to be We need more support for the backbone of our tackling unemployment. History tells us the dangers workforce: the small and medium-sized enterprises that that all societies—and especially our own—can face cannot allow people to work flexibly from home, and from the challenges of mass unemployment coming depend on the office block buying their sandwiches and around once again. It is not just the difficulties that can coffee. I understand that we cannot tell the future. Oh be faced in the body politic in the world of politics and boy, what if we could? We would all pick the six numbers governance, but the challenges that individuals face for Saturday night. We would do many other things, of when we see our jobs go, and then heroin and alcohol course, but we would do that if we had the opportunity. flood in, so we require to tackle unemployment with a However, that does not mean that we do not have to will and with vigour. future-proof. That must begin with support for owners That comes back to the basic premise: we need to of SMEs, to give them confidence that their business minimise the challenges and we need to maximise the will survive, that they will come out the other end, and opportunities. It can be done, because things do need to that we will be here to support them. be done. We do need to upskill our people, as the buzzword goes; we do need to deliver that green new Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): We now come to deal to tackle climate warming; we do need to ensure the Front-Bench speeches. The guideline limits are that society allows access for all, especially the disabled 10 minutes for the Scottish National party, 10 minutes and most especially, the young. for Her Majesty’s Opposition and 10 minutes for the Minister. Then Kirsten Oswald will have three minutes Kirsten Oswald: I am particularly troubled by the at the end to sum up the debate. story that a young friend of mine told me. My young friend has a learning disability, but has held down a job 3.54 pm and done very well at that job for a significant number of years. He recently lost that job because of the challenges Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): It is a pleasure of covid, and I am particularly concerned by what this to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I pay will mean for people such as him in the future. We tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire cannot build that inequality into the future. What does (Kirsten Oswald) for bringing this debate to the Chamber. my hon. Friend think about that? What we have to do—and many Members have already done so—is set out the context, both past and present. Kenny MacAskill: That is why we have to ensure that Change is inevitable. It is coming, and it may just be an we tighten employment legislation that has been loosened age factor, but I realise we cannot roll back time and it is over recent years. Other speakers mentioned that, but not all bad. There are challenges, but there are also this is about ensuring rights for all and, as I say, especially huge opportunities. I do not believe that the future need the disabled. It also comes on to the point about workplace be either dystopian, or indeed, apocalyptic. The future changes. I have mentioned the nature of the jobs that we can be bright if we fight and deliver a fair and just have lost, but there was one benefit that came from society for all, and that is what we need do. them, and that was unionisation. It was and remains I also think we need to remember the past, because it important that workers have rights. I always remember was not all halcyon days. My hon. Friend the Member reading that the largest single site employer in the United for East Renfrewshire was right to praise the Scottish States is not Boeing; it is not even the Pentagon. It is Government for pardoning minors for convictions in Disney World. I recall that my grandfather started his the industrial struggle back in the 1980s, but let us not training as a carpenter at Parkhead Forge. It was the have any rosy picture about the nature of the jobs: the largest single site employer in Scotland—up to work in the pits, the work in the yards, the work 40,000 people—and is now a retail shopping centre. The offshore and the work on fishing boats. It was hard. It problem is that it has brought about the gig economy, was dirty. It was dangerous. I do not think any of us andmadeitdifficultforpeopletocometogethertoorganise. regret that our children are not required to serve in that. We must have a balance between capital and labour. So let us remember with pride, but let us also remember Mention has been made about the IWGB. I have been that in some ways, the change—in the automation and involved with it on foster parents while others have moving away from those jobs—has been a good thing. worked with it on the gig economy, but we need to The same can occur in a society if we mould it in the ensure employment rights. That is fundamental. We manner that we want. must address the nature of the work that is taking place, Change is inevitable, as has been mentioned by all because the gig economy is grinding people down. I am speakers. Pre- and post-covid, there were changes. Before fortunate enough to be a good friend of Paul Laverty, covid, in IT automation, the pace, the number of jobs; who, along with Ken Loach, wrote the movie “Sorry that was referred to by others, and we spoke about the We Missed You”. That is fiction, but it is based in fact: union learning fund. The number of jobs that youngsters the story could have been written in 101 different ways, entering into the labour market are required to carry all about the exploitation of individuals who are low out will be significantly greater than in the days of my paid, hired and fired, and used and abused. They are grandfather, who almost got a gold watch for going into human beings, not battery hens. As political bodies, we the same place day in, day out for most of his life. Post and the Government must ensure that we provide covid, the changes have simply accelerated, and we are protections for them. That is most certainly necessary. 253WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 254WH

[Kenny MacAskill] 4.4 pm Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): We must also remember the challenges that are coming It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Hollobone. around because of covid and those that existed before, I join colleagues in congratulating the hon. Member for such as the gig economy, which the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) on securing this York Central (Rachael Maskell) mentioned. During my debate on the future of work, and on her speech. The brief time-out from politics, I went away and wrote range of contributions that we have heard from hon. books. I wrote one about the dispute in Glasgow in Members, and the thought that has gone into each, 1919, when, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim show that the issue should, increasingly, be on the Shannon) will know, there was also a huge strike in parliamentary radar. Belfast, as well as in areas of England. What people forget is that that was not just a battle in George Square The hon. Member for East Renfrewshire was right: between the forces of law and order and our industrial the status quo is not good enough, and we cannot go workers, but a strike for a 40-hour week. back to the past. Many issues have been raised. The hon. Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger) talked about If we went out in the streets today and spoke to the importance of effective employment programmes. people, they would say, “Give me a 40-hour week. I’d be My hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham and Rainham grateful if I had a 40-hour week and could live on what (Jon Cruddas) rightly said that technology is not destiny I earn.” More than a century on, it is shameful that and that the future is far from certain. My hon. Friend people cannot get a living wage. That movement was the Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) talked driven because men were coming back after being about how building back better cannot be left to the demobilised from the first world war and there were market, talking about a role for Government, communities going to be challenges. Before they went on strike for a and the unions. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim 40-hour week, they had argued for a 32-hour week. Shannon)—it is always a pleasure to speak in a debate We need to start looking at a four-day week, but with him—talked about worrying times for the nation. ensuring that people can pay their way. Countries such He is absolutely right. This is an issue that we must all as Sweden have shown that working for four days face together, with the concerns of our constituents means the same—or increased—productivity as working very much at the forefront of our minds. My hon. for five. Far too many people in our country are not Friend the Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) working for 40 hours a week, but for far longer. We talked effectively about dignity, identity, self-worth, and need to address that because, frankly, it is shameful and the need to reshape our economy and to look at sector there is a better way. councils. This is not just about the gig economy, but about the I want to build on some of those themes. The issue type of work that needs to be done. The hon. Member has many dimensions. Technological change is creating for Devizes (Danny Kruger) was quite right: social the future. To some extent, it might replace work but in care is absolutely essential, but it cannot be used and truth it might also not replace work—it might create abused. It was hard enough to be on a fishing boat or those new jobs. How we embrace and shape the technology in the pits, but working for hour upon hour on your and changes of the future is down to the choices that we feet as a social care worker is miserable. We need to make. Past mistakes cannot be allowed to continue. We ensure that those jobs are properly recompensed and should not come out of this period with greater division protected, which comes back to the point about balance than we saw not just going into the crisis but before, and between capital and labour, the need for unionisation, with a deeper digital divide creating those who are in and the need for a living wage and not simply a minimum and those who are out of prosperity in future. wage. The imperative that a decent society does not leave Society can be better, but there is work to do. We people behind must be our priority. Employment will be must build and retrofit houses, and do the same for one of the key themes of 2021. What has to be critical is schools, hospitals and other buildings that will be necessary not just how we create good work and jobs for the to meet the climate change challenges that we face. We future, but access to those jobs and fair and decent pay can choose a better way. There are significant challenges; to go with them. Why is that? Because more than we cannot turn back time, but if the Government are 1 million jobs have been lost during the crisis. Vacancies prepared, willing and able to ensure that the rights of remain 30% below pre-crisis levels, and forecasts suggest workers are protected and that the excesses of individual that unemployment will remain substantially above its employers are reined in—there are good employers out pre-pandemic level well into 2022. there, but some are deeply exploitative—we can get that Too many entered the pandemic in an already precarious balance. position. More than 12 million households began the Countries such as Germany,which has a right-of-centre year with less than £1,500 in savings. They have been hit Government whom I would not necessarily support, hard as jobs and income have been reduced. Jobs are have found that better productivity, better quality of becoming less resilient, not more. The latest ONS figures life, and higher standards of living can be and are better show that more than 1 million people are on zero-hours delivered by respecting trade unions and even having contracts, almost double the number in 2013. Ethnic them on boards of directors—not just in public companies, minorities, young people, single mothers and the lowest but in private ones. Will the Minister ensure that adequate paid have seen their employment hit the hardest, with a workers’ rights and protections are provided? If we double hit on BAME communities disproportionately provide them, the future can be bright and we can build affected by the health crisis. As has been said, they are back better, but the Government must ensure that they the least likely to be able to work at home and those take charge to protect workers’rights, rather than allowing who will struggle for access to the new jobs of the a race to the bottom. future. 255WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 256WH

Yesterday, the Government announced an additional Many employers have sought to do the right thing by £8 billion for green funding for the future. That is employees in the uncertain period in which we live, and welcome, but it does not remotely meet the scale of unions have been working closely with many of them. what is needed to tackle the climate emergency and is Other employers have sought to take advantage of the far smaller than the ¤27 billion pledged by France or pandemic to erode workers’pay and terms and conditions, the ¤38 billion by Germany. That is why Labour has as discussed in the “fire and rehire” debates in the launched its own jobs-rich green recovery action plan, House. That has exposed the need to strengthen our which includes action to recover jobs, and investment offer to workers and to enhance the protection afforded and co-ordination to secure up to 400,000 good, green them. It also raises how vital it is that we listen to additional jobs; to retrain workers by equipping them workers and include their views in how we shape the with the skills needed; to deploy the green technologies future of work. of the future; and to rebuild business with a stronger According to research by the Fabian Society, some social contract between Government and businesses to 58% of workers say that they are given no opportunity tackle the climate crisis and ecological deterioration, to influence how technology is used in their workplace. while promoting prosperity and employment. Emerging technological change in workplace practices I will also make mention of co-operative strategies, must look at improved transparency, accountability raised by my hon. Friend the Member for York Central. and involvement: that should be at the centre of any A co-operative strategy for recovery that builds from Government plan. That plan could include how the the bottom up, looking at community resilience in our Government will work shoulder to shoulder with trade recovery, is an important part of our future. Indeed, unions to stand up for working people, as well as those are themes to be discussed at the West London tackling insecure work and low pay, and transforming Business conference tomorrow on the future of aviation the training opportunities available to people at every and communities. stage of their lives, with schools, further education and The future of work must mean fair work, and a social higher education all part of that. security system fit for purpose. Too many workers have That is why it is so important to reconsider and had inadequate employment rights and precious little rethink the proposed cuts to the union learning fund, bargaining power. The pandemic has highlighted that which is so effective and vital to adult education. It is the social security system that should underpin those also important to take tough action to raise standards workers’ autonomy in the labour market is woefully and root out exploitation in lower paid under-regulated inadequate. sectors. An ambitious vision for how technology can be It is also important for the Government urgently to used to open up and improve opportunities for all conduct and publish an assessment of the financial workers should be core and part of a commitment to barriers to self-isolation, including the level of statutory ensuring that the future of work is resilient and inclusive. sick pay. If such gaps are not filled, a cohort of people Alongside that, we should also be looking to explore will continue into the next period having to make an and review rights such as the right to disconnect, giving impossible choice between self-isolating and putting remote and electronically connected workers the tools food on the table. We need to support people back into to disconnect to ensure that their mental health and work, so I hope that the Minister will reconsider the work-life balance are protected and respected. That punitive culture behind benefit sanctions, brought back issue was highlighted effectively by the union Prospect. by the Government in July. We must look at effective employment support. People The future of work—a resilient, inclusive future, with must have access to work for the future. Opportunities good work for all—is critical as we think about how we for access must come through effective Government build back better. The theme is now international, schemes; the latest figures show that the Government’s reflected in recent reports on the future of work published Kickstart scheme has so far created opportunities for by the World Economic Forum, the International Labour around 3% of the 600,000 unemployed young people. Organisation, the OECD, the RSA and, of course, the We also need to make sure that these are high-quality Institute for the Future of Work, which I thank for its placements with built-in training opportunities for young work supporting the APPG and its briefing in advance people that provide a transition into longer-lasting of this debate. Many of these debates look at the employment, so that around the country opportunities acceleration of changes in workforce practices, including for young people are sustained into a long-term future. the advent of automation and AI. That is important because effective support in work and As change comes, however, we must lead rather than out of work—including an effective social security system lag. There is a need to review concerns around workers’ that supports workers—is vital. People will be looking rights and protections as labour market structures change, to switch jobs following changes in the labour market and issues around the future of good work and of perhaps 11 times, on average, in their lifetime. That is workplaces post-covid must be matters for debate and very different from the world in which past generations policy. It is not a new area: 30 November marks the grew up. fourth anniversary of the launch of the Taylor review, In conclusion, future generations will judge us by the which looked at insecure and exploitative work, the choices we make today to support livelihoods and quality of work, and modern workplace values. It is businesses, tackle the unemployment crisis, and face up time to refresh that: the Government have only passed to the realities of the climate emergency. An economic legislation on seven of the 53 recommendations to date, plan needs a jobs plan, and a jobs plan needs a skills despite accepting much of that report. Furthermore, in plan. A credible green recovery with sustainable jobs— an answer to a parliamentary question today Ministers something that people across the world are looking were still not able to define when the Employment Bill to—requires co-ordinated action across Government, will be coming to Parliament. harnessing investment and regulation, working alongside 257WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 258WH

[Seema Malhotra] taskforce which met for the first time last week, which will bring together the views of businesses and employers, local government and the private and voluntary sectors as we heard today, and key stakeholders including the to deliver system-wide change right across our country. skills sector. The taskforce will focus on the immediate We cannot let the failure to address pre-covid inequalities, and longer term challenges of delivering workers with laid bare by this crisis, now be an injustice that we allow the right skills for the UK’s transition to net zero, to be passported into the future. including dealing with the issue of building back greener, as we heard this afternoon, and developing a long-term 4.15 pm plan that charts out those key skills. It will also focus on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work the good-quality jobs that we need, a diverse workforce and Pensions (Mims Davies): It is a pleasure to serve and supporting workers in high-carbon areas transitioning under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and to respond into sectors such as green technologies. to the debate. I look forward to further debates on this We heard about the 10-point plan this week from the issue. I greatly thank the hon. Member for East Prime Minister and his blue-print to focus on jobs and Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) for securing this important opportunities in the areas where the UK’s industrial debate on a critical topic for the UK. It has been interesting heartlands need that support—be they in Yorkshire, the and thoughtful, and the introductory speech was exactly north-east, the Humber, the west midlands, Scotland or that—as were those from Front-Bench colleagues. I Wales. It is important that we drive through a green particularly welcome the new APPG on the future of industrial revolution to support the industries of the future. work, which will look at work going forward and the role the Government take. I will try to pick up on some Rachael Maskell: Will the Minister specifically look of the points hon. Members have made. at the BioYorkshire project, which has been driven by Reflecting on what Members have said, we recognise the University of York and others to kickstart York’s that the labour market is fluid. We will have to continue economy in the light of the crisis, and look to bring it to adapt to the forthcoming challenges, emerging forward, because we need new jobs now? technologies and the changing nature of available employment, and the skill sets that are required to MimsDavies:Itisanabsolutefocusforustodriveforward remain agile enough for this change in the world in local needs and support where they can change the local work. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Danny labour market and local opportunities. Earlier, the hon. Kruger) reflected on the jobs miracle, the barriers and Lady also mentioned working with local mayors and local impacts of where we are now compared to where we enterprise partnerships,which this Government encourage. were, and the inequality challenge. I absolutely recognise On automation, we know that the increase in productivity, the points that my hon. Friend made. progression and wages that it can bring if we get it right We also heard from the hon. Member for Strangford will be really important as we head into this fourth (Jim Shannon) who has the art of being in two places at industrial revolution. It is very difficult, as we know, to once—brilliantly done today. I failed at that earlier, and predict with any kind of precision what automation will I apologise. The hon. Gentleman pointed out, rightly, do to the labour market, but it is important that we that for many families this is an incredibly worrying understand new technology, including the enablement time. The Department for Work and Pensions has stepped of smart robotics and artificial intelligence, grab it and up in this pandemic so that we are supporting as widely put it in place as part of our process of change. We as possible, but I fully recognise the impact on SMEs know that 60% of the jobs in 2014 simply did not exist and our local independents. in 1990, so we know that things will change imminently. We heard from the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) who highlighted the social care Jim Shannon: In my contribution—perhaps the Minister challenge—it is absolutely important. We have had a was about to come on to it—I said that the indications care academy in Scotland through the DWP that has are that about 1 million people will lose their jobs after been brilliant, and has highlighted the variety of roles, covid comes to its end, and those are generally people and impacts, that can be made by those who are part of with low educational achievement. I gave two figures that amazing world making a daily difference to people’s that together almost come to 400,000 of that million lives. It is important that we sell and point out that people—those who have two GCSEs or equivalent, and opportunity in the world of work. thosewhodonotevenhavealevel3education.So,although I want to pick up briefly on UBI. I believe,fundamentally, I know that it is not the Minister’s direct responsibility, it is the wrong approach for the UK. As we heard from is it possible for her to look at those people who do not my hon. friend the Member for Devizes, it does not have many qualifications but need extra help? incentivise work. More importantly— and the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire mentioned disability—it Mims Davies: I was coming on to the interventions does not target people with additional costs and needs that we need to make. At DWP, I have introduced a new when it comes to the challenges that they face, whether sub-brand for our jobcentres: “jobs, community, it is disability or childcare responsibilities. We should be progression”. It feeds into my passion to shape the careful how we approach that. future of the labour market, to deal with its structural We recognise at the DWP that we need to be looking problems and to reflect the breadth of what we do in strongly and widely at the labour market. We have an our jobcentres, so that people understand that they are excellent team, which I work with closely, who give me a there for the reskilling and upskilling of individuals. daily understanding of the labour market so that we That is a key priority for us in the next decade and it can try to take advantage of the opportunities of is applicable not only to individuals displaced by the automation—this emerging technology—and what it pandemic. As the hon. Gentleman suggested, it is also may bring. We heard already about the green jobs to deal with a structural problem in the labour market, 259WH The Future of Work 19 NOVEMBER 2020 The Future of Work 260WH to make sure that the occupational skills base matches mentioned HSE, safety at work and other areas for what is needed in the labour market, so that people are which I am responsible, which were important points. not left behind and we match businesses’ needs. We She also mentioned wellbeing at work, which was our recognise that this approach cuts across Government absolute priority before the pandemic hit, and will departmental boundaries, but we also recognise that continue to be. collective action is vital when it comes to jobseekers I am determined that those who were struggling to being able to adapt to changes in the workplace. progress before the pandemic hit—who were perhaps locked out of the labour market before that, despite the Grahame Morris: Will the Minister give way? record employment—are not left behind. Our focus as a Mims Davies: No; if I may, I will make some progress. Department and a Government is to build back greener and stronger. That will be powered by technology and My Department is leading a cross-Government steering skills; by matching retraining with new jobs to secure a group, with key responsibilities in terms of gathering better future; and vitally, as we have heard, by connecting evidence to inform the right decision making. We have communities with all opportunities so that we can level touched on the issue of skills this afternoon. There will up our economy by ensuring that our labour market be £3 billion, when the skills fund is Barnettised, to have thrives throughout the UK. a national skills fund to help adults to get the key skills for the economy of the future. 4.26 pm Also, as a part of wider Government work, I am Kirsten Oswald: I again thank the Backbench Business working with the Department for Education and the Committee for allowing us to have this debate. It has Department for Business,Enterprise and Industrial Strategy been an important discussion and the speeches have to ensure that all our DWP claimants have the skills been excellent, thoughtful and wide-ranging. I acknowledge sought by local employers, so that there is a clear link the breadth of topics covered and the importance of between the local labour market and employers. covering all those topics. Undoubtedly change will come The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema in this area, so we need to look to the future, but we also Malhotra), the Opposition spokesperson, asked for a need to look to action. plan for jobs. We have one—a £30 billion plan for jobs Covid-19 is clearly accelerating changes in work, as for every part of the country, and for every business, so well as a number of significant employment challenges. thatbusinessescanhavetheconfidencethroughthefurlough We have to look to the future in that context. We have to scheme to retain and retrain staff, and also to be able to consider artificial intelligence and technology, and how hire people by working with DWP and across Government. to use it well and positively.Some Scottish local authorities We are doing that through the Kickstart scheme, are looking at how to innovate there; in fact, many which my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes referred organisations are looking at technology in the context to. This is an incredibly important job creation scheme. of work. Perhaps the Leader of the House, if he is It is a £2 billion project that runs through to December watching the debate or reading the transcript, might next year, so that our young people have the opportunity reflect on that. We also need to look at the issue in the to get on the employment ladder. context of equality. We have to build in equality as we Wehave our expanded youth offer,including new youth move forward. Wecannot allow the pandemic or technology hubs that will bring together all the options that our to ever be an excuse to perpetuate inequality at work. youngpeopleneed;sector-basedworkacademyprogrammes; As we go forward, we need to consider the issue of Job Entry Targeted Support, which will also launch in fairness at the heart of all we do. The work of the Social Scotland in January, is a brand new and targeted support Justice and Fairness Commission is worth looking at; scheme that is already rolling out in England and Wales; the importance of sustainable and fair work cannot be we will boost our flexible support fund; and our work underestimated. Dignity should sit in the middle of coaches are paramount. Conditionality was mentioned everything. We should consider how work needs to earlier. Our work coaches are more empowered than look: do we have to have a five-day week or could we ever to focus on a claimant’s needs and on the challenges move to a four-day week? We should look at the way they face, to ensure that we have a clear link between our that collaboration at work makes things possible. The claimants and our work coaches, so that we can support trade unions, such as the Scottish Trades Union Congress, our claimants. We have tailored programmes to help are doing excellent work on that. people’s individual circumstances more than ever to Different organisations are considering the future of make sure that they can get a job and, more importantly, work, including the new all-party parliamentary group progress in the labour market. The economic outcome on the future of work. We need to consider that along will be difficult, but as it becomes clearer, we are targeting with the employees, who are central to it all. There is our support at the right people and the right areas. nothing inevitable about the discussion that we have had today, or about what is coming down the track in Kirsten Oswald: Before the Minister concludes, could terms of the future of work, except for one thing, which she put her mind to the specific things that I asked her to is that the good political decisions and good judgments consider? In particular, can she can tell us whether the that we make today can make work better and fairer for Government will accept the ruling of the High Court? tomorrow. Will they take forward the fire and rehire provisions, or similar ones, that my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley Question put and agreed to, andRenfrewshireNorth(GavinNewlands)hasputforward? Resolved, That this House has considered the future of work. Mims Davies: Those are matters for the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, but I can 4.29 pm write to the hon. Lady about them. I also note that she Sitting adjourned.

15WS Written Statements 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Written Statements 16WS Written Statements HOME DEPARTMENT

Thursday 19 November 2020 Applications for British Citizenship: War Crimes Screening

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the FOREIGN, COMMONWEALTH AND Home Department (Kevin Foster): I have made the Equality DEVELOPMENT OFFICE (War Crimes etc.) Arrangements 2020 and the Race Relations (Northern Ireland) (War Crimes etc.) Arrangements 2020 to enable a Home Office Minister to subject applications from certain nationalities for Gibraltar: Covid-19 Response British citizenship to more rigorous scrutiny than others for the purposes of determining whether the applicant has committed, been complicit in the commission of, or otherwise been associated with the commission of war The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide. and Development Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): The covid-19 pandemic has had a The Equality (War Crimes etc.) Arrangements 2020 are major impact on all of the overseas territories, including made under paragraph (1)(1)(d) of schedule 23 to the Gibraltar, where it has impacted on around 60% of its Equality Act 2010, and replace the Equality (War Crimes economy. The Government of Gibraltar also instituted etc.) Arrangements 2013. The corresponding Race Relations a lockdown and financial support package broadly (Northern Ireland) (War Crimes etc.) Arrangements similar to that in the UK. The cost of maintaining this 2020 are made under article 40 paragraph 2(c) Race support and related measures, combined with the loss Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 and replace of revenue from its key sectors, has put a significant the Race Relations (Northern Ireland) (War Crimes etc.) strain on the Government of Gibraltar’s finances. Arrangements 2013. Consequently, the Chief Minister of Gibraltar sought The condition for subjecting these applications to financial support from the UK Government (HMG), as more rigorous scrutiny is that the applicant is a national the sovereign power. of a state specified on a list approved personally by a Home Office Minister for the purpose of the arrangements. The UK Government were clear at the outset of the covid-19 pandemic that they were looking to overseas I have reviewed and approved this list and I am territories to make full use of their financial resources satisfied the conditions set out in the arrangements are in order to address the needs of their people: we also met in respect of the countries on the list. indicated that we would consider requests for further The arrangements will be reviewed on an annual support on a case-by-case basis, to complement basis and will remain in force until revoked. I will comprehensive local responses. Following discussions update Parliament when new arrangements are made. with the Chief Minister, it was agreed that HMG would Copies of the arrangements will be placed in the provide a loan guarantee for a lending facility of up to Libraries of both Houses. £500 million. This will provide resilience to the Government [HCWS589] of Gibraltar’s finances by enabling them to borrow at more favourable rates, by leveraging HMG’shigh sovereign credit rating as the guarantor,confirming the Government PRIME MINISTER of Gibraltar’s capacity to repay the principal loan, providing HMG with the reassurance regarding their liability under the guarantee. Cabinet Committees A contingent liability checklist has been approved by HMT and FCDO Ministers.The Government of Gibraltar The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): Today I am have identified a bank prepared to open the requested publishing an updated Cabinet Committee list. I have drawdown facility, under acceptable terms, and contracts placed a copy of the new list in the Libraries of both are being prepared for signature. The Government of Houses. Gibraltar have made commitments on transparency and information sharing and have ensured compliance [HCWS590] with all relevant international standards in this respect. The serious impact of covid-19 on Gibraltar’s economy GCHQ Accommodation Procurement: Intelligence and means that it is important that these contracts are Security Committee Reports signed at the earliest opportunity. I have written to the Foreign Affairs Committee and the Public Accounts Committee explaining that it has not been possible to The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): The Intelligence consult Parliament in advance on this occasion. and Security Committee of Parliament (ISC) has today laid before Parliament a report of the former Committee A departmental minute has been laid in the House of on GCHQ accommodation procurement: a case study, Commons providing further detail on this contingent examining the procurement process for the National liability. I will keep the House informed of further Cyber Security Centre’s (NCSC) London headquarters significant developments in the case. and the decision of the (then) Government in 2016 to [HCWS588] approve Nova South as the location. 17WS Written Statements 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Written Statements 18WS

We welcome the scrutiny that the Committee and the authority on cyber-security,the NCSC required a workspace National Audit Office provide in order to ensure that which balanced the need for accessibility and operational the taxpayer receives the best value for money from capability to defend the UK against cyber-threats effectively. investments made by the security and intelligence agencies. Nova South met all the key criteria required by the The procurement of Nova South as the headquarters of Government, including proximity to Whitehall and other the NCSC was a unique challenge, undertaken within a stakeholders within the Government secure zone. A demanding timeframe and as a result, the Government further contributing factor to its selection was its availability acknowledge there are lessons that can be learned from which allowed the NCSC to be established at pace, the procurement process. We have noted the Committee’s within a year, providing a centre at time when there was recommendations and will respond to them in full in an urgent need for the Government to increase their due course. defensive cyber capabilities and respond to global cyber incidents like Wannacry. The UK has never been better defended from cyber- Nova South has provided a much needed central threats than it is today. The NCSC offers unprecedented focus for UK cyber-security since its procurement, hosting analysis, response and reduction techniques to the growing a wide range of Government and industry partners as cyber-threat. well as contributing to our global commitment to cyber- The Government accept that this report does not security and the UK’s ranking as number one by the scrutinise the overall success of NCSC. However, as the Global Cybersecurity Index. public-facing part of GCHQ and the UK’s lead technical [HCWS587] 5P Petitions 19 NOVEMBER 2020 Petitions 6P

And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Petition Chi Onwurah, Official Report, 9 September 2020; Vol. 679, c. 736.]

Thursday 19 November 2020 [P002596]

OBSERVATIONS Observations from the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Oliver Dowden): Football clubs form an integral part of local communities DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT up and down the country. Throughout the pandemic football clubs have been playing their part and providing Premier League transparency vital support to their local area. The petition of residents of Newcastle upon Tyne Central, It is crucial that fans’ views and perspectives are Declares that football is an important part of a city’s listened to. The Government’s Expert Working Group cultural identity and economy; further declares that on football supporter ownership and engagement in football fans have little say in their club owners; notes 2016 set out a number of recommendations to encourage that football ownership is determined by the Premier greater engagement between supporters and those that League’s Owners & Directors Tests; further notes that run their club, while also helping to remove barriers to the Premier League do not provide updates to supporters supporter ownership. The Premier League and English about the progress of takeover bids; further declares Football League now require clubs to meet with supporters that Premier League due process is opaque; further at least twice a year to discuss strategic issues, giving declares that the Premier League are not accountable to fans the opportunity to shape the direction of the club. football supporters; further declares that the Premier The Premier League is responsible for the Owners’ League have failed to engage with fans; and further and Directors’ Test which was used to assess the proposed notes concerns that Premier League inactivity led to the takeover of Newcastle United. The Government have collapse of the recent Newcastle United takeover. no role in this. The sale of the club has always been a The petitioners therefore request that the House of matter for the parties concerned, and for the Premier Commons urges the Government to take action to League to assess under its Owners’ and Directors’ Test. review the way in which the Premier League assessed the recent Newcastle United takeover bid, to provide The Government will undertake a fan-led review of accountability to fans and local communities of clubs football governance, which will include consideration of subject to takeover bids, with particular reference to the Owners’ and Directors’ test. Fans should be at the Newcastle United, and to commit to a timescale for a heart of future plans to reshape football governance. fan-led review of football, as promised in the Government’s We will announce the scope and structure of the review manifesto. in due course.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 19 November 2020

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL TRADE ...... 441 INTERNATIONAL TRADE—continued Business Exports: Administrative Burden ...... 451 Topical Questions ...... 455 EU Trade Agreements: Rollover with non-EU Trade Agreements: Food and Farming Standards.. 441 Countries ...... 454 Trade Deals: Human Rights Provisions ...... 454 Exporting and Transporting UK Goods ...... 455 Trade Policy: Consultation with Unions ...... 452 Free Trade Agreement: Canada ...... 447 UK Trade Policy: US Presidential Election...... 448 Inward Investment: UK and other European UK-Japan Comprehensive Economic Partnership Countries ...... 447 Agreement ...... 445 Japan Trade Agreement: Climate Change UK-Japan Comprehensive Economic Partnership Commitments ...... 453 Agreement ...... 453 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Thursday 19 November 2020

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN, COMMONWEALTH AND PRIME MINISTER ...... 16WS DEVELOPMENT OFFICE...... 15WS Cabinet Committees...... 16WS Gibraltar: Covid-19 Response...... 15WS GCHQ Accommodation Procurement: Intelligence and Security Committee Reports .... 16WS HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 16WS Applications for British Citizenship: War Crimes Screening...... 16WS PETITION

Thursday 19 November 2020

Col. No. DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 5P Premier League transparency...... 5P No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 26 November 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 684 Thursday No. 138 19 November 2020

CONTENTS

Thursday 19 November 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 441] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Trade

DHSC Answers to Written Questions [Col. 461] Answer to urgent question—(Edward Argar)

Business of the House [Col. 472] Statement—(Mr Rees-Mogg)

Integrated Review [Col. 487] Statement—(The Prime Minister)

Sport Sector: Financial Support [Col. 506] Statement—(Nigel Huddleston)

Virtual Participation in Debate [Col. 520] Select Committee Statement—(Karen Bradley)

Backbench Business Online Harms [Col. 528] Motion—(Jeremy Wright)—agreed to International Men’s Day [Col. 553] Motion—(Ben Bradley)—agreed to

Independent Reconfiguration Panel [Col. 571] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Fuel Poverty and Energy Price Caps [Col. 219WH] The Future of Work [Col. 236WH] Backbench Business Debates

Written Statements [Col. 15WS]

Petition [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]