EAST AFRICAN COMMUNITY ______

EAST AFRICAN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Official Report of the Proceedings of the East African Legislative Assembly

5TH SITTING – SECOND ASSEMBLY: SECOND MEETING – FIRST SESSION

Thursday, 21 June 2007

The East African Legislative Assembly met at 9.58 a.m. in Parliament House, Kampala.

P R A Y E R

[The Speaker, Mr Haithar Abdirahin Abdi, in the Chair]

The Assembly was called to Order ______

BILLS MOTION First Reading That the Assembly do resolve The Chairperson, Council of itself into: Ministers (Mr Eriya Kategaya) (Ex- Officio, Uganda): Mr Speaker, I beg to a) A Committee of Ways move that the following Bills be read a and Means to consider First Time: and approve the Financial Statement; i) The Lake Victoria Basin Commission Bill, 2007 b) A Committee of Supply ii) The East Africa Community to consider and approve Customs Management the revised estimates of (Amendment) Bill, 2007. expenditure for the year 2006/2007 and estimates Bills read a First Time. for expenditure for the Financial Year The Speaker: The Bills stand 2007/2008. committed to the relevant committees of the House.

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Mr John Koech (Ex-Officio, Kenya): Mr Speaker, I believe that our coming to Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would Uganda for the summit and also being in like to give my thanks and appreciation this Parliament is going to send some to the Speaker of the Ugandan very positive signals to the people of Parliament for giving the East African Uganda that indeed the East African Legislative Assembly the opportunity to Community is in existence. I think this is have their deliberations in their a very good gesture, and I hope that even Chamber. I would also like to thank the as we continue in this session we shall Chairperson of the Council for working move to the other capitals like Nairobi, with the Speaker to ensure that we meet Dar-es-Salaam, Bujumbura and Kigali in this august House of the Ugandan so that we are known as the people of Parliament. East Africa. I don’t think there are better ways we can encourage and make the Mr Speaker, we have been talking a lot people know about the East African about the East African Community and Community other than through our we want to see that the people of East travels. Africa understand and know the existence of the East African I want to congratulate the Members of Community as well as its implication on the first EALA because I know that they their lives. This is because when the East travelled all over East Africa...I can see African Community was accepted after that hon. Lydia Wanyoto is happy, but its collapse, the leaders - our presidents - some of us have not travelled anywhere. were very concerned about the I am happy I have travelled in integration process in East Africa. Now Uganda...in fact I have travelled more in we have come back to the Community as Uganda than I have in my own country it was before. When the East African and I have travelled very little in Community collapsed, I think it was the Tanzania. But I think that as Ministers in feeling of the people of East Africa that charge of the East African Community, we should revive the Community. we should also follow their example. We really need to go to the various parts of I do remember, Mr Speaker, in 1982 East Africa so that the people of East when I led a delegation of Kenyan Africa feel that we are there, that we are Members of Parliament to Uganda, we doing a good job for them and that what had a chance to visit a good part of this we want to do is to upgrade their lives country, and when we were in Gulu we and reduce poverty in the region. So, this met some people from there and they stay here is of extreme significance, and were asking us “when are you going to I thank you, Mr Chairman, because you revive the East African Community; it made sure that we came here. We shall was good for us!” I believe these also make sure that you come to Nairobi. sentiments were the same all over East Africa. And now that the East African Secondly, I want to congratulate Community has been formed, I think it is Members of EALA that finally they have extremely important that the people of been sworn in and I want to thank them this region know of its existence and the for their patience. At times of course benefits we can derive from working they approached us, especially me in together as the people of East Africa. Kenya, because the problems were in

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Kenya and I was frequently asked, how they started the process of “When are we going to move?” I felt integration, what they told us was, “We like running away from them at times, moved slowly by slowly but we took a but I thank them for their patience pragmatic approach towards because they have been patient for integration”. I think we in East Africa almost one year and I found that they also need to take a pragmatic approach never lost hope. Congratulations for towards integration. There could be fears being sworn in and for being patient – but let us move. Some of the things that (Applause). we feel are real problems to us can be left aside. As we move, we shall gain Mr Speaker, EALA plays a very crucial more confidence, get to new horizons role in the integration process. As I said and begin to understand that our fears before, the previous Members of EALA may not be necessary at all. travelled all over the region. I believe that this group that has come in is quite Some of the fears that have been enthusiastic, highly motivated and I outlined about fast-tracking the political believe that they will also be able to federation include the fear by some travel all over East Africa and preach the countries that if we pursue right of gospel of integration; even political residence and free movement of persons integration. This is because we need to there will be unemployment problems tell our people the benefits. In some and their land will be taken away. I think areas some people have a lot of fear that we shall be able to address these fears if we continue integrating there will be and make sure that nobody takes domination by others. I think this is anybody’s land or job. We have got to something that is not based on work in such a way that every country information, and I think that when our benefits from the integration process. people eat and they meet together, they And the people of East Africa, especially begin to see each other as brothers and the Members of EALA, will play a very sisters, so the fears that we have will not crucial role in this. be there. I repeatedly told the members of the Mr Speaker, I do remember that when First EALA that they were more East we came up with the Customs Union African than we were, and this is true there was a lot of fear that there was because they played a big role. Even going to be some loss of revenue by when it came to the Wako Report on some countries, but when the Customs fast-tracking the political federations, Union came, there was no loss of they played a very crucial role because revenue. Every country in fact registered they were always in Arusha and they an increase in revenue collection. So as always looked at East Africa on a we move, even some of the fears that we regional basis. The problem with us, have will not be there. even as ministers, is that we still have a heart for our own national governments Mr Chairman you will remember when and we may not look at East Africa on a we went to Europe and we talked to the regional basis. We need to change that, European Union - especially when we and I believe that as we travel and move were in Germany - and we asked them in this region, we shall also be able to

3 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates change our attitudes and see that we divided the lake into the Ugandan work on an East African basis with an portion, the Tanzanian portion and the East African perspective. I think we can Kenyan portion. However, the lake is an achieve that. entity and it is very difficult to utilise it when you are looking at it on a national I am happy that the chairperson has been basis. It is good that now we are going to saying that we should move, and I know utilise it on a regional basis and that we that he is going to make arrangements are going to conserve it on a regional for us to move. Mr Chairman, I believe basis, which is natural. I think that is that I will join you. My biggest problem what God wanted us to do because when of course is that we are almost going for He created this Lake, He didn’t intend elections – (Laughter) – but I will steal a for it to be dismembered by the three bit of time occasionally to campaign for countries. East Africa besides campaigning for my constituency, because we must create We shall beg God to forgive us for that time for some of these things and we because we are now cleverer; we are should have fears. I hope that we will be now going to utilise the lake on a able to move. regional basis. And if this is going to be done, I think even this question of the Mr Speaker, the previous Assembly also receding levels of the lake is going to be passed quite a good number of Bills, and a thing of the past. This is because we I am happy that I was associated with the will look into the conservation of Lake passing of these Bills like the Customs Victoria; take care of the water Management Act and the catchments areas and also the utilisation Standardisation, Quality Assurance, of the lake itself. And this is very Metrology and Testing Bill, which are important. now acts of the East African Community, and I can see that there are I do understand that the mapping of quite a good number of Bills that are Lake Victoria took place a long time also coming, like the Bill on Lake ago, and that is why some ships have Victoria Basin Commission. As we been having accidents. Now with the know, last week the President of the acquisition of the MV Jumuiya, which Republic of Kenya, as the Chairman of was given by the DFID, I think it will do the Summit then, inaugurated the Lake a lot of work. It will do research on the Victoria Basin Commission, and we lake and at the same time it will be used have a Bill to make sure that we to map out the routes on the lake so that operationalise the activities of the Lake we shall have very clear routes for the Victoria Basin Commission. I am now ships. I am anticipating a situation where very happy that this house has started we are going to have dala dalas and sitting because we can now pass that Bill matatus on Lake Victoria. That is of to enable the full operation of the Lake course matatus, which move on the Victoria Basin Commission. water.

Lake Victoria is a resource that has been Our people will be moving from Kisumu made by God for the people in this to Entebbe and from Entebbe to region, but because man is selfish, he Musoma, and these are some of the

4 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates economic aspects regarding the use of Parliament we will get jobs” but how the lake. And if the lake is going to be many jobs can be created by any mapped, then it is going to be safe to government in East Africa? In Uganda travel on those routes. I also hope that it you cannot take all the young men from will be cheaper to travel along the lake Makerere University, leave alone other rather than on land, because honestly the universities. In Kenya it is the same, people travelling from Kisumu to Homa because the opportunities in government Bay were making a long detour, but are very few. when they begin using the lake, it will be much easier for them. The only challenge now is creating an environment for the private sector to We also have a lot of tourist potential on develop. The private sector will then Lake Victoria and if we harmonise all create more employment and business the activities on the lake, then there will opportunities for the young people. I be an increase in economic activities and think it is good to advise our people that also employment opportunities for our instead of looking for jobs they should young people. I know that in East also start businesses like the Asian Africa, with the great growth in community. I commend the Asian population, the number of young men community because they do a lot of who are leaving high school, colleges business and they are very serious. They and universities have become so many. do business 24 hours! But I think our What are we going to do with these people have not yet got into that spirit. If young people? There is an our young people leaving the unemployment problem. I understand universities can start in a small way, they that in Uganda you call it “streetology”; can also be very big business people in that is the science of walking on the future. streets when you are not employed. In Kenya we call it “tarmacking” or I remember going to one factory in “tarmackers”. Those who don’t have Kenya that belongs to some Asians and I jobs “tarmac”; they are always on the really got challenged. I found out that tarmac, they don’t have an office. those people are selling mabati in New York. The make the mabati in Mombasa I think in order to reduce this problem of and sell it in New York; they sell “tarmacking” and “streetology” we need sufurias in France! So I think we should to be proactive: start with all these change our attitude, especially our young activities on the Lake, the tourist generation. We should make sure that attractions as well as a good amount of we create business opportunities so that the infrastructure as was illustrated by they can be able to get some source of the chairman very well in the Budget. In livelihood and not only look for jobs. So, this way, we shall be able to engage a the East African Community being a good number of our young people in region of more than 120 million people gainful employment. It is important of provides the opportunity for greater course for the people of East Africa not investments and greater investment to look at employment per se, because opportunities. sometimes people struggle and say, “If our own man is in State House or in

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Mr Speaker, we have seen that our East Africa. This is why they have budget has increased because of the appointed us and given us only one coming in of Rwanda and Burundi. I job...to be in charge of East Africa. want to urge the Secretariat that some of the programmes that we have already Sometimes people think that this job of earmarked for development be being a Minister for the East African implemented, because it is very Community is something small. I find important that we implement these that there are so many things to do if we programs because you might find at the are really to meet the challenge of being end of the year that you have not the ministers in charge of the implemented them. community. The coordination of all the activities of all the ministries is not a Just before I end my speech, Mr small job. It is also something that Speaker, because I don’t think I am allows you to know more about the East going to speak for a long time as African Community as well as the everything has been explained very well business activities in this region and to by the chairman, on the question of be able to advise the people on what can political federation I think we have be done. So, the challenge is big, and it undertaken sensitisation programmes depends on the way we are going to and our people have made some very conduct ourselves. Otherwise, the positive comments. They have also ministries are very strong and they are given us some challenges that we need very important for this region. to address. I believe members of EALA will be able to explain to the people of I am happy and I want to thank our East Africa how we can continue in Heads of State for seeing to it that we political federations. have ministers in charge of the East African Community only. In fact it was Mr Speaker, honourable members can this House that recommended that there see that we are having a different should be ministers in charge of the East Assembly. For those of you who were African Community. So I congratulate not here and for the Members of EALA those who were here before and I believe who were, the ministers were always that even those that have just come see a absent but you can now see that there is need for having ministers who are solely no absence of ministers. Dr Msabaha in charge of the East African had a commitment; he was to come but Community. he was going to vote in his own Parliament. He said, “Give my apologies Mr Speaker, I would like to commend to the Members”. I know that he will be the chairman, and I believe we shall be with us in future. However, we are more saying more. I beg to support – than a quorum; we are two instead of (Applause). three so we have about 70 percent presence of the ministers – (Applause). Mr Dan Kidega (Uganda): Thank you, This has been made possible of course Mr Speaker. Allow me to thank you and because our presidents have found out the House Business Committee of this that the East African Community is Assembly for standing very tall and firm extremely important for the people of to make sure we have this Budget and

6 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates this sitting in Uganda. I would also like Mr Speaker, without hurting or to thank the Parliament of Uganda for breaching the provisions of sub-rule (5) creating space for us to sit in their of Rule 43 of our Rules of Procedure, chambers – (Applause). allow me to comment on three issues that came out very prominently in the Mr Speaker, I was further humbled by Budget Speech, of course not forgetting the presence of the Speaker of the to salute the able leadership of the Parliament of Uganda and his Members Council of Ministers that made a very in the gallery who attended the people centred presentation of the presentation of our budget. I was budget. Mr Chairman of the Council, I humbled because they got the feeling of really salute you. The budget that you how voters feel when they sit in the have read is really people centred and it gallery. I think that was great humility has touched on so many issues that are and I must really commend them for serious to the people of East Africa. that. I would like to further salute the good stewardship of the Summit of the Mr Speaker, first, on the Lake Victoria East African Community for the good Basin Commission, from the bottom of work they have been doing since last my heart I would like to thank and salute year in November to bring on board the able leadership of the Commission. I Rwanda and Burundi – (Applause). It was privileged to have been part of the has given us strength in all dimensions delegation from this Assembly that went and it has made the Community more to Kisumu for the launching of the visible. I must therefore repeat that we Commission. I would like to thank in are very grateful -I am personally very detail the Executive Director for the grateful for that good leadership. wonderful organisation that he presented to the East Africans. It was a very Mr Speaker, turning to the budget, this beautiful function. I would like to also Parliament has the responsibility to pass give a very big thank you to the the budget, but I think it is not only just Government of Kenya for providing land passing the budget. I would like to for the Commission. The Government of address myself to the process of building Kenya has given five acres of land on this budget. This one-off work of which the Commission is going to have passing the budget is good, but how the a permanent residence – (Applause). The budget is developed to this level is more Government of Kenya needs to be crucial than just pronouncing ourselves applauded for this, and this will give the on it. I am not yet so sure of how much Commission prominence and good input the Assembly brings on board in working capacity. the process of developing these budgets. It is my humble plea and request that this However, Mr Speaker, I interacted with Assembly be part and parcel of the a few members of staff of the process of developing the budget of the Commission, and I found out that the EAC right from the beginning – Commission is very skeletal in terms of (Applause) - not just to come and staffing. They have I think about twelve pronounce ourselves on figures. to fifteen people working yet if you look at the responsibility put upon this Commission I think there is grave need

7 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates for manpower to be brought on board in introduce a private vessel that can move this Commission if they are to undertake from Kisumu to Port Bell and several and perform the tasks required of them. other points along the lake, but his main concern was that unless there was a The other thing that I observed about the comprehensive programme to clear the Commission is that most people perceive water hyacinth, his private venture might the Commission’s visibility and not operate well. So I think the operations more or less like an NGO that Commission must work very hard to continuously siphons resources from make sure that the water hyacinth is some donor community to have its dealt with. Also, the other activities that operations moving. I would like to are going on around the lake...the implore the Council of Ministers and the majority of our people living in the lake Secretariat that for this Commission to basin are very ignorant of the danger do its work well, it needs to be given a they are causing to the lake. So I think lot of resources right from finances to there is need for massive sensitisation of the human resources the fishermen and the people doing agriculture around the lake, in order to Still on the Lake Victoria Basin ensure that the lake is preserved. Commission, Mr Speaker, everyone praises Lake Victoria as the biggest Mr Speaker, the second issue I want to resource that we all share and need, but I comment on is the issue of the education really need to be informed about the sector. We were also lucky to have dangers there are right now on the lake. I visited the Inter-University Council of went to one of the landing sites from East Africa. I would like to thank the Kisumu when I was trying to interface executive secretary of this institution. I with some of the fishermen there. The was personally very impressed and thing they expressed to me, which they humbled when he told us that since the think is a big threat to them, is the collapse of the Community in 1977, they presence of the water hyacinth that has have kept the Council alive. I want to become very prominent on the lake. I thank them very much for keeping this think the Commission and the institution alive. Community as a whole must address itself in detail to the water hyacinth on He further detailed to us that they have the lake. The fishermen told me that made savings out of the contributions even transport on the lake has become they have had. I found this very unique, very difficult because of the water Mr Speaker; amidst a growing culture of hyacinth. corruption in this region, you find an institution saving money! I think the I think that the Community and executive secretary needs to be everybody in East Africa must look at applauded for this good culture - this problem as a serious issue because if (Applause). Apart from that bad culture the water hyacinth is not dealt with soon, of corruption, you know most of us are a lot of things are going to happen, one not very good at saving. So I really want of them being that our people who are to thank the executive secretary and the interested in investing in water entire staff of the Inter-University transport...I found a man who wanted to

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Council for that good attitude and good universities so that they can come within spirit of work. the ambit of control and monitoring of the Inter-University Council of East Mr Speaker, the executive secretary Africa. Some universities continue to presented to us the request of the admit students who have been rejected institution that based on the savings they by other universities that attach great have made, they are looking forward to importance to standards. So I think the breaking ground on which to build their issue of standardising admission and own permanent home in Uganda. They curricula in the universities of East further said that they would like the Africa must be taken on very seriously if Government of Uganda to give them we are to get well-trained human land to build their home. I hope Uganda resources that can serve in the global is not going to shy away; I am sure we economy. are going to follow the example of Kenya. I am sure the Chairperson of the Mr Speaker related to education still, Council of Ministers, who is also a one time when I was still a member- minister in this country which has a elect, I was invited to go and talk to good policy of supporting investment by some students at Makerere University giving land, and with a very industrious from Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, Rwanda mayor we have in this city, I do not think and Burundi. They were gathered at that this request will land on dry rock. I, Makerere and one of the issues that therefore, implore the Government of came up was the extra levy being put on Uganda to heed to the request of the “foreign” students. East Africans Inter-University Council of East Africa originating from Kenya coming to study and provide them adequate land to build in Uganda are charged an extra fee. I a permanent home such that East was intrigued, and I think these are the Africans can enjoy the services from this issues that if dealt with, the local East institution – (Applause). African would feel the presence of the Community. I can give you an example, Mr Speaker, still on the education sector, Mr. Speaker. one thing that intrigued me very much was the issue of standards, which we If you are a student from say Tanzania or raised with the institution. We have a Kenya and you want to come and study problem, particularly with the private at Makerere University to do your universities. The borders have become Masters, say, in Law, your tuition fees very porous in terms of movement of will be US $7,500, while the East students. We have so many private African of Ugandan origin will only pay universities but most of these US $3,125. This kind of sectarian universities are not conforming to the charging of students does not promote standards required of a university. The the spirit of the East African executive secretary told us that within Community. I think here the Council his realm of control, he deals with both should help us to look into such kind of public and private universities that have segregation so that all students are already been chartered. I think it is treated equally. There are even permits important for the member governments required of these students that go for to work faster to charter private almost US $1,000. Mr Speaker, I think

9 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates through our able leadership of the critically seen in the budget speech, or council these issues should be addressed maybe the project document which I such that the ordinary East African can have not yet studied, how the East feel the importance of this Community African Legislative Assembly is on and the federation to come. board in that project, in terms of reaching out to the people. It is my Mr Speaker, the fourth issue concerns humble appeal, that the process – the East African Community re-branding (Interjection) project. To me this project is a very serious project and the most important Mr Bernard Mulengani (Uganda): project. The re-branding project is Thank you hon. Kidega for giving way. supposed to revamp the visibility, the Mr Speaker, on that particular point I publicity and the outreach programme of want to give information on the issue he the Community to the East Africans. For is raising. Given the fact that we were those of you who have been keen in given documents on short notice, he is listening to FM stations, reading right. He has the ability to peruse newspapers and hearing comments from through the documents but possibly he the public of Uganda, the public outside did not have enough time to peruse there is complaining and saying that through all of them. what is going on now is a preserve of the politicians, and that it is the political I want to refer hon. Kidega to the MTEF class that is enjoying this Community of the East African Community for the and federation. They say, they are doing financial year 2007/2008. On page 61, it for their own interests. amongst other activities that are highlighted is political federation. On I must commend the process of fast- page 63, in the justification for the tracking. They have lent a lot of synergy budgetary proposals for political to the process of reaching out to the federation, the programmes are population. I would like to thank the able entrenched. If I were allowed I would leadership of our fast tracking committee read it, but in the interest of time I will of Uganda, which has managed to reach just quote the last paragraph: “The almost all parts of this country. programmes in the form of one-day However, there is still a huge problem in workshops will be presided over by the terms of reaching out to the people. The Secretary General (or the Deputy people out there think that the politicians Secretary General in charge of Political - we, the Council and the Summit - are Federation) and the Ministers of the just in a club of politicians creating a East African Community Affairs in the situation of enjoying ourselves in power. respective Partner States.” This project is supposed to work so hard to make sure that information is taken I want to inform hon. Kidega that this is down to the community. I would think the document we are here to debate - the that this institution of the East African report by the Chairman of the Council - Legislative Assembly is the people’s but it is not portraying anywhere, voice and is in the best position to be the regarding the issues of political vehicle to deliver the publicity message federation, the role of the East African to the East Africans. I have not yet Legislative Assembly - (Applause). This

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Medium Term Expenditure Framework are going to sell your rice in Kenya at a has left some activities without higher price and you will have more attachment of responsible persons, but money.” The man was really happy. specifically that particular item has been However, such simple messages are not entrenched and attached to people. Why? being taken down to the population. (Interjection) So, it is my humble plea that this The Speaker: Your contribution will be Assembly is given very good capacity in a bit later on. all forms to ensure that it reaches out to the population because, short of that, we Mr Kidega: Thank you, hon. will start looking for funding from Mulengani, for your information or mini outside, and we will water down the contribution – (Laughter). Of course institution of the Parliament. The these are the issues, Mr Speaker. The institution of Parliament is not supposed people outside there are not happy. They to go begging for money from some are strangling us in the public court that donor organisations or NGOs to perform we are creating a class of enjoyment and its function. I thank you very much Mr of making our lives comfortable as Speaker – (Applause). politicians. So this project...I think actually if there is one issue that is Mr Clarkson Karan (Kenya): Mr supposed to be fast-tracked in the Speaker, it – (Interjection) Community, this is the one. Also, in the fast-tracking process, relevant organs The Speaker: Honourable member, like like the Assembly must be given a I said yesterday, please introduce critical role. The fast-tracking yourself; give your name and your committees have a life span, which is constituency. collapsing around 30th of June, but the sensitisation of and delivery of messages Mr Karan: Mr Speaker, in compliance to the population is a continuous with your ruling of yesterday, I want to process, and I think the people’s voice is say that my name is Otieno Karan. I best suited to do so. represent the constituency of Kenya in the East African Legislative Assembly. Yesterday I was walking around a place and people swamped me because the Mr Speaker, let me also take this East African issue is a big debate right opportunity to sincerely thank the now in Uganda because of the presence Government of Uganda. When we were of all the organs here. They said, “You coming here, we did not know that we tell us how we are going to benefit.” So I would be welcomed. But now that we looked around, and I picked one man are sitting in this National Assembly and whom I knew was a farmer and I said to the Speaker was here yesterday, it gives him, “I know you so well. You grow a us hope because the original conception lot of rice and with the coming on board was that we were not welcome to come of the common market you are not going and make this presentation of the budget to sell your rice only in Uganda. The here. Thank you for accepting us. We Kenyan people eat more rice than us now know that some information may because we eat more of matooke. You not be in the interest of the East African

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Community, and we will always lake. It was removed just two or three disregard them. years ago, and it is back. I think there must have been something wrong Let me also take this opportunity to somewhere. I have had an opportunity to thank the Council of Ministers for their see the Uganda side of the lake and it is able stewardship, and also to thank the not there. What mechanism was used to Minister, the Chairman of the Council, remove the water hyacinth on the who ably presented the budget speech Ugandan side that could not have been yesterday. Let me also take this used on the Kenyan side? opportunity to thank my colleagues for being patient during the last seven Surely, with the presence of the water months of persecution. Now that we are hyacinth on Lake Victoria no economic here, we look forward to working for the activity can be undertaken. We are people of East Africa because that is talking of transport on the lake, what we were elected to come and do. improving fishing, and a number of activities that should be carried out on Mr Speaker, the budget speech touched Lake Victoria, but unless the East Africa on a number of things and they are Community and its organs take the pertinent issues, but what is left to be removal of the water hyacinth out of seen is whether the Council of Ministers Lake Victoria seriously, we are just in will live up to the budget speech because the usual game of getting money and that is what will bring about the success using it for other activities, and at the of this Assembly and the success of the end of the day we will remain with the East African Community. same lake on which we are not able to do business. Mr Speaker, I want to thank the people of Rwanda and the people of Burundi for Mr Speaker, I had the opportunity to be joining the East African Community the Mayor of Kisumu at one time, and I because it has given us a wider scope of am happy that there is now LVEMP II operation and it will make the East coming in terms of what was read in the African Community more vibrant. Let budget. I made some input when I was me also take this opportunity to thank the Mayor in Kisumu. Mr Speaker, we the Council of Ministers and the want this job to be done well because if Members of the First East African it is not properly handled, the Legislative Assembly for ensuring that environmental degradation will pollute we were able to launch the Lake Victoria that lake and we will never be able to Basin Commission in Kisumu last week derive benefit from it. but one, because this commission will be responsible for the development of Lake The other issue, which must be Victoria, which is the common shared addressed, is the pollution of Lake resource. I want to say that LVEMP I, Victoria. I feel ashamed that most of our which worked on Lake Victoria in terms cities are still polluting this lake, and I of removing the water hyacinth, did think if the East African Community has some good work but there were so many not reached a stage of properly things lacking, because the water controlling that one, it must be able to hyacinth is back on the Kenya side of the tell the parent government to ensure that

12 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates pollution is eradicated from their sides Community so that we have the right through the local authorities. I want to education for the operation of this say that Kisumu City Council was one of community. Otherwise, we would be in a the polluters of Lake Victoria but that business that we cannot be able to justify pollution is outside the scope of the local to other people. authority. It must be tackled together with the parent government so as to Mr Speaker, let me also say that make sure that pollution is not a sight whatever was not done by the First when we take our visitors around Lake Legislative Assembly was because it Victoria. Mr Speaker, once the Lake was an institution, which was just Victoria Basin Commission is starting and there were teething operationalised, it will be on the spot and problems. But I want to say to the will have a lot of work to do for the Council of Ministers that for the East people of East Africa. Therefore, it must African Legislative Members to be able be properly funded and properly staffed to do their work well, they must have so that we do not have problems in its some offices where they can be able to operations because it is the livelihood of operate from. We cannot be seen to be the people of East Africa. carrying these big books everyday back to our hotels and back to the nini. We Mr Speaker, I also want to add my voice will not be effective. to those of the Members who have talked about the Inter-University For us to be effective there must be these Council, which we had the opportunity facilities for us to operate because we do to visit. I do agree that there are not want you to say at the end of our five protocols which actually have been years that the Members of the East controlling the operations of these African Legislative Assembly never did institutions from the time they were put any work beneficial to the East Africa in place, but the scope of a protocol is so Community. So, the issue of offices for narrow that it cannot allow an Members must be properly addressed. organisation to operate and be able to Even if there are not enough offices for take care of the problems we have in the all Members, there must be a number of East African Community. offices to accommodate the members so that they can be able to discharge their I was a bit amazed when among the list duties. of the Bills I did not see a Bill to be enacted to take care of the operations of Well, I know the Council of Ministers the Inter-University Council. In the also needs offices, but the speed with Budget Speech, Mr Speaker, I do not which they got their offices was know whether it is there or not, but I did amazing. They should also use the same not see it. I do not know whether it was speed to be able to allocate a few offices an oversight. But if it is there, it is one of for the Members. (Applause) I am not the Bills, which must come to the Floor saying that they are not looking at the of this House as a matter of urgency welfare of the Members; I am saying because we need human resource and we that their actions should portray so. need to be able to control the education standard within the East African

13 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Mr Speaker, I want to say that – be in a position to be able to arrange (Interjection). programmes for the fishermen to be taught how to use the modern methods Mr Koech: I wanted to tell the of fishing. honourable member that the ministers in charge of the East African Community There is a problem at the moment. When have already been given offices in the fishermen cross the imaginary Arusha -[Mr Karan: “Honourable borders in the lake, they end up being Minister”]- I was just giving that arrested. Why is this issue there up to information, but of course he has talked now? If you want to talk to the about the Members’ offices. You know community residents about the East we are building new headquarters for the Africa Community, I think we must be East African Community. There should able to address this issue, even through be a possibility. the Summit. This issue of arresting fishermen because they have crossed the Mr Karan: Mr Speaker, the information borders must be made a thing of the past. given makes it even worse – How do we go to speak about East (Interruption) - African Community to the fishermen who were arrested the other day because The Speaker: Honourable Minister, the they had crossed into Tanzania or Member was saying that the Members Uganda? should also get offices with the same speed you got your offices. (Laughter) This is an issue that the Summit must That is what he said. address as a matter of urgency because we want to do away with those borders Mr Karan: The information that the and the goodwill must be seen. It is an Council of Ministers has been given issue we cannot keep on singing about. offices makes it worse. I know they are The First Legislative Assembly talked Members, but they are there not quite about it and we are now coming to talk regularly. It is the Members of the about it. This issue must be addressed Parliament of EALA who should be with speed, Mr Speaker. considered for those offices and I hope the Chairman of the Council of Ministers The other issue is that at the borders will address this issue and ensure that there are still a lot of problems. Now, if before we go through this year there will the honourable members themselves are be offices at least to accommodate 10, experiencing these problems, what about three, four or five so that we can be able ordinary East Africans crossing these to discharge our business. borders? So, when you want to address the people about the East Africa Mr Speaker, fishing is something that we Community, what facts do you have to cannot overlook, because that is the convince them that being members of livelihood of about 30 percent of the the East African Community and being members of the East African one entity will be something good if just community. We must try to improve the the day before they had just crossed the life of the fishermen around Lake border and they had to spend about one Victoria and to be able to do so we must

14 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates hour trying to complete the board to be able to live up to the reality. documentation? In the absence of that we will not be able to work. Mr Speaker, maybe because you are ministers when you pass there they just I want to assure you that the second let you pass; you do not experience those Parliament will live up to the things. But we as Members of expectations but it needs support from Parliament go through those all the organs of EAC, and anybody who experiences. Sometimes you have to stay tries to undermine the East African there for over 45 minutes. If a Member Legislative Assembly will be of EALA takes 45 minutes at the border undermining the people of the East and he is talking about East African African Community. These people have Community, what justification do you been brought here to work for the have to give your people? interest of the East Africans, and every organ or individual put in position to Mr Speaker, on the federation, I think work for the East Africans must ensure something must be done. If this matter is that whatever he or she does to be addressed only by the Council of compliments the work of each organ of Ministers and the Secretariat, then we the East African Community. will not reach anywhere. There must be full involvement of Members of the East Mr Speaker, I do not want to talk about African Legislative Assembly to talk to what we are supposed to do about the the people, their constituencies. budget because I know the problems we have had, but next year we will want the We must also bring on board the budget to be done in a manner that we Members of our parent national can be able to justify, that, “Yes, we parliaments to talk to our people to be talked about the budget and passed it.” able to sell the East African Community However, because of the constraints of as a matter of urgency. Otherwise, if we time and the problems we have had, we leave it to the technocrats who go on may not be as effective as we are talking - and you know that the ordinary supposed to be in this budget, but we wananchi have their own feelings about hope the Council of Ministers has the the Executive, so when you go there they interest of the EAC and the job that they will think it is the usual business. But if have done is in the interest of the East this matter is handled by Members of the Africans, and we will be able to work in East African Legislative Assembly and harmony. With those few remarks, I beg the Members of Parliament from the to support the budget – (Applause). parent parliaments, you will see the speed with which the people of our Dr Francis Nangale: Mr Speaker, I countries will accept this federation. would like to congratulate you upon However, if you want to continue to the being elected the Speaker of this House extent that it is not clearly shown in the – (Applause). I had the privilege of budget - as the information has been working with you very closely during given - that there is no role for the the First Assembly. We worked together honourable Members, then I must tell in the Committee on Trade and you, you must go back to the drawing Investment, in which you always acted

15 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates as my “unofficial” co-chair. Your achievements and face the challenges readiness to devote most of your time ahead more aggressively with zeal and and energy to legislative activities speed. despite your other business interests made all of us proud of you - The people of East Africa are looking (Applause). I want to assure East forward to the output; they want to see Africans that we have got an asset in you outputs. The good news is that this and an inspirational agent to the cause of budget represents 76.6 percent increase the regional integration process. in Partner States’ contribution, which to me reflects both the commitment and the Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate political will of our governments to this fellow Members upon being elected, and cause. However, the activities have some of us re-elected, to the second increased and we need to explore more Assembly. I take this opportunity thank means and sources of funding. In the my party Chama Cha Mapinduzi for First Assembly we mentioned a number nominating me once again and the of sources, which we suggested should Tanzania Parliament for re-electing me be used. I call upon the East African to represent the people of Tanzania in Community to explore these sources: this Assembly. As I serve my last term, I things like levies, like getting some hope this Assembly will consolidate and percentage of the customs collections take us from where the first Assembly and many others. left. Mr Speaker, I would also like to talk Mr Speaker, the Assembly will miss the about what happened in April 2002 here expertise and charm of our dear Hansard in Kampala. The Summit of the East Reporter, Sam Chesire, who died at the African Community directed that in beginning of this week. May God rest matters related to the World Trade his soul in peace! Organisation (WTO) and the ACP/EU trade negotiations, all Partner States Mr Speaker, I would like to commend should negotiate as a block, but instead the Chairperson of the Council of the Partner States decided to configure Ministers, the Rt. hon. Eriya Kategaya themselves into different groups. for his detailed and well balanced budget Consequently, the First Assembly, speech yesterday. It covered all aspects through a Private Members’ Bill of the budget, which we are being asked demanded an adherence to this directive. to debate this morning. I will dwell on However, the Council of Ministers asked four aspects as I contribute to this the Members to withdraw the Bill for it debate. to be reintroduced to the House by the Council. Unfortunately, that did not One, it is clear that the Community has happen. come a long way in terms of negotiating towards the Customs Union, in terms of Just two days ago, the summit, again preparing for the Common Market and here in Kampala, noted in principle that in terms of the accession of Rwanda and there are benefits for the EAC to Burundi to the Community. The way negotiate as a block in Economic forward therefore is to consolidate the Partnership Agreements (EPA) in the

16 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates interest of consolidating the EAC African Legislative Assembly in a big Customs Union. To my surprise, none of way. the planned legislative programme which was pronounced yesterday Mr Speaker, looking into the future, included the introduction of the infrastructure development has been particular Bill on negotiation as a block. emphasised in the budget speech. This is I demand that the Bill be reintroduced fundamental in improving the regional for consideration as a matter of urgency, economic and social status of the people Mr Speaker. of East Africa. However, one thing I would like to mention is that we need to Thirdly, besides its legislative and explore other areas of promoting oversight functions, the Assembly infrastructural development, and one represents about 115 million people of area is networking the region in terms of East Africa. It has the duty to go back to petroleum pipelines. Already Kenya has the people and report what is happening a pipeline running from Mombasa, at the East African Community and get through Nairobi to Kisumu. I would like the views of the masses on the to see plans to connect the other towns integration programme. And here I am and other areas such as the regional referring to the outreach function. areas of Lake Victoria like Mwanza, Musoma, Bukoba and others. This will Without saying many words, Mr help to improve the living conditions of Speaker, I want to see the funds that are the people in those areas. As we expect allocated for outreach re-allocated to the petroleum drilling to start in Uganda in EALA budget rather the different the next few years, plans to have organs. The Secretariat’s core function is pipelines networked throughout the to facilitate the East African Community region should be put in place as soon as administration and to coordinate drilling starts. management of the protocols and laws, including the Customs Union and the Mr Speaker, taking into consideration Common Market. the matters that I have raised, I support the motion. Asante sana – (Applause). The Lake Victoria Basin Commission’s core function is to coordinate and Mr Augustine Chemonges Lotodo manage Lake Victoria development (Kenya): I would like to say that the programmes, which activities I am sure importance of the federation cannot be the current management of the underestimated given the fact that we Commission is well vested to do. The know the benefits of United Nations, Court of Justice’s core function, as we WTO and all regional bodies in the have seen recently, is to interpret and world. Therefore, I really want to thank settle disputes arising out of the the presidents of the three countries, and operationalisation of the Treaty. The re- also Burundi and Rwanda for joining the branding project, for example, is a federation because the federation will project designed to sensitise the people actually put our resources together, and of East Africa, and it is basically an working from the economies of scale, outreach programme. I would request we will be able to better our living this particular project to involve the East standards within East Africa.

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to understand why they are quarrelling One issue that I would like to stress is or fighting. Sending the army is not a that we can never have a good solution. We have achieved the same in environment or progress in a state of Southern Sudan and all over in the insecurity. I was really happy when the world. So, I would like to appeal that we Chairperson of Council of Ministers in should try and change tactics rather than the budget speech said that the issue of bombing our own people as if it is the peace and reconciliation is a very only means to understand them or important item in the federation process. communicate with them.

I come from a region that has problems, Another issue is to do with the Lake and I thank the Government of Kenya Victoria Basin. I would like to say that because for the first time we got one of the major failures of the first members from the minority parts of the Commission was that they failed to country where we have problems. address the problems of Lake Victoria. I Therefore I want to say that this will can assure you right here that the give us an opportunity to talk to our catchments area of Lake Victoria Basin people, and maybe make peace, because is depleting. There is deforestation going for whatever we are doing, if we do not on. If you look at the Chereng`anyi have peace in East Africa, we will not areas, in the part of the catchments area achieve anything. of Lake Victoria where I come from, trees are being cut day in and day out. I was very happy to hear the President of So, I would like to say that as think Burundi, H.E. Nkurunziza, talking of about Lake the Victoria basin, we should having been in Dar-es-Salaam trying to think of the ways to sustain the make peace with the opposition leader. I catchments areas. Let us send experts think that is a step forward in realising there, plant more trees and conserve the our dream of East Africa because in an source because without the source which environment of war there can never be will bring rain to the lake, we will be progress in economics. So, I want to say doing zero work. that peace should be an important issue. As much as we talk of everything else, Therefore, it is my appeal that we pass let us ensure that we have peace in this Budget we should emphasise going Northern Uganda, in Burundi, in to the source of the entire Lake Victoria Rwanda and in Northern Kenya, such basin and try to protect those sources by that we are able to move in the same planting trees and by ensuring that process. So, it is my concern that we nobody interferes with the catchments address those issues. areas so that we can have sustainable water flow into the lake so that we can Another thing about people who are harness the benefits therein. always in conflict is that we have been using systems or tactics that are not Talking about the budget, I concur with result oriented. We cannot continue what my colleagues have said. I agree bombing our residence of East Africa as that because we have just been given this if that is the solution. We have to change budget, we have not had enough time to strategies. Let us talk to them. Let us try go deeply into the issues. However, the

18 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates next time we should be given well mobilised. I felt we would have opportunity to interact with the relevant done more if we had seen so many committees that deal with the budget people in the streets of Uganda first so that by the time it comes to the following us. I am sure it would have House, we are quite aware of what we sent a clear message to the Western are talking about. world that actually we are together in addressing the issue of federation. But I also want to address the issue of we were only there with school children. resources in the budget which will be I think the next time we should perhaps sent out to the other organs of the change the strategy, and maybe give the Community. I would like to appeal that legislators a chance so that East Africans the resources sent out should be well can have a chance. utilised. Nowadays we have a common concept of rapid results initiative. We With those few remarks, Mr Speaker, I also have performance contracts. I would beg to support the motion. like to see that the money or the taxes collected from East Africans are well The Speaker: Honourable members, utilised. So we should subject all those before I call on the next speaker, I would organs that are going to receive this like to recognise the presence of money to be on performance contracts Members of the Uganda Parliament; such that the East Africans get value for hon. Kiyingi, hon. Kasasa, hon. Godi their money. and hon. Wasike – (Applause).

Another issue is about the publication of Ms Catherine Kimura (Kenya): Mr the East African Community journal. We Speaker, sir, I wish to join my have realised that other organs are not colleagues in paying tribute and even reflected in the journal. When we thanking the Ugandan Parliament for have a publication on the East African allowing us to hold our meetings in this Community, we should have articles on August Chamber. I also thank our all the organs highlighting and Uganda Chapter for arranging our stay explaining what they are doing. Many here and playing hosts to us. times the emphasis is only on the Secretariat issues, or issues of visitors, Mr Speaker, I congratulate the and what other organs are doing is not Chairperson of the Council of Ministers captured. Anybody reading the journal for his budget speech, which enumerated should be made to get a clear picture the various activities that the across the board on what East African Community will undertake during this Community is doing. financial year. I specifically want to turn to the area that he mentioned and spent a To wind up, I would like to say that - as lot of time on: this is the area of my colleague has said - I thank the industrialisation for our countries. This process of the national coordinating is a golden opportunity for the countries committee on the fast-tracking process of East Africa to rethink the bedrock of for the job well done. However, I would their economies. also like to say that we had a walk the other day, which was good but it was not

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For many years, our countries have industrialised region? We no longer can prided themselves in being say that we do not have the market. We agriculturalists; they export major have a market of 115 million people and, commodities like coffee, tea and others, therefore, producing goods for 115 including maybe even our fish, but we million people is not the same when are being overtaken by some of the Kenya would have thought of producing newly emerging countries who believe only for 30 million, and then you say, that they can compete with us in the area even if an investor comes, there is no of agriculture. way you will say there is no market for those goods. We cannot talk about that Our tea is under siege from Vietnam, any more. It is in the past. The way which is now producing tea, and I cannot forward is now to take advantage of this underestimate the Western world in enlarged market and produce goods for producing even synthetic coffee to these countries rather than continuing to compete with ours. So, Mr Speaker, it is import and spending the scanty foreign time that we emphasised exchange to bring in some of these industrialisation in our countries. I goods. So to me, it is an important area believe that it is industrialisation that that the Community with the enlarged will combat the sickness of “streetology” market will have to focus on and move and “tarmacking” for our youth. I, our countries and be like the Asian therefore, commend the minister that in Tigers who can talk today about having his speech he did talk about a budget that industrialised. will focus on employment creation, which employment will benefit our Mr Speaker, I want to talk a little about youth. Lake Victoria. I am encouraged that today the Bill on the Lake Victoria Basin However, Mr Speaker, I have not had has been tabled in this August House. the opportunity to really go through the We had the opportunity to visit Port budget documents and to analyse the Portal the other day and we are Medium Term Expenditure Framework discouraged. We were discouraged by activities to see how this particular the pathetic situation of transportation on strategy has been entrenched in the our lake. There is only one working budget. One would expect that if this is vessel on that lake. I want to challenge going to be our focus, that indeed if we our Council of Ministers and our are going to emphasise the area of governments to see how transportation industrialisation and investment in order on the lake can be enhanced - to alleviate poverty and enhance the (Applause). It is an important area, standards of living of our people, we particularly now when we are talking would need to entrench these activities about three land-locked countries: in our budget. As I said, I have perused Rwanda, Burundi and Uganda. it in a hurried manner, and I have not seen that area covered very well. The importance of transportation on that lake cannot be over emphasised. I am I have seen a little bit on consultancies aware of course that the vessel that is regarding investment, but how are we there has been concessioned as part of going to move this region forward as an the railways, but I hope that even though

20 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates we have concessioned it, there will be Mr Speaker, I wish to commend our opportunities for investors to invest in Partner States for seeing the necessity of new vessels whether cargo or passenger putting aside money from their national types that will be used for the benefit of assemblies and from their national our people. I hope that as we talk about budgets to support the work of the East synergies and how to exploit this lake African Community. It is gratifying to this will be one of the major areas that see that the major part of the budget will will be exploited. be funded by the Partner States. Our countries are moving away from donor Mr Speaker, let me turn now to the dependency; some of them only taking budget and revisit an issue that my two in about five to ten percent. I am colleagues from Uganda mentioned and encouraged that this year Tanzania said that the issue of provision of offices for that they are not taking in a donor the members of the East African component. Likewise we must move Legislative Assembly. I have seen in the away from donor dependency. I am also budget that allocations have been made gratified that our Partner States have for the expansion of the chamber, for seen the importance of supporting the refurbishment of the committee rooms, activities of the Community from their and also for the lounge. Nothing has own resources. This is something that been mentioned about offices for should continue. The donors can come in Members. but let them ride on the money that has been voted by our countries to support Looking at allocation for equipment, for this work. Members there is no mention of this. You are aware that we have about three Mr Speaker, as I finish, let me say that computers in the Members’ lounge and we need to be involved in the budget those are very inadequate for the 27 process. Even in the case of a budget members and the incoming Members hearing, we should at least be made from Rwanda and Burundi. Mr Speaker, aware of what the budget will entail and this is an area that I hoped would receive what it will be composed of. We cannot attention. However, I hope that in the do justice, even in commenting on this revised budget we shall see this area of budget, in a matter of two days having offices and equipment for Members only read the documents in the last 12 being taken care of. We cannot afford to hours. I hope that as we go on and as we wait until the end of the year. We have continue, mechanisms will be found documents to read and our hotel rooms where at least we are given the are for sleeping not for reading: they are opportunity to hear or to interrogate the not conducive for serious reading or process before it is finalised. We are not analysis of the documents that we get. I saying that it is our duty to prepare it but would therefore urge the Secretariat, or we are saying that we should be given an those who are concerned with the opportunity to interrogate the budget budget, to look into this area before the process before we come to the final end of the year so that this House can document. With those few remarks, I look at a revised budget that beg to support the motion. Thank you. accommodates that particular item.

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Dr John Didas Masaburi: Thank you, programmes, are not well featured in the Mr Speaker. First of all I would like to budget estimates. In the outgoing join my colleagues in thanking all those financial year, the speech says under who are supposed to be thanked and in paragraph 17 that, “Several instruments congratulating all those who are for agriculture and food security have supposed to be congratulated. been developed.” Now my question is, Mr Speaker, I am concerned with three “Are these documents helping the or four areas in the budget speech ordinary people of the EAC”? In this together with the budget estimates. The year’s budget, I have noted on pages 58 first area is on the programs that are and 59 of Volume II of the budget related to the Third Strategic Plan of the estimates that the agricultural EAC; the second is on the cost reduction development budget has been allocated strategies; the third is on the functions of US $60,000 but if you go through the EALA and the fourth is a concern on the tables in the same document, the US cost of administration and consultancy $60,000 is earmarked for regional services. workshops. This is surprising!

In the first area, the Budget Speech says Also surprising is the fact that civil that there are some major plans of the aviation has been allocated US EAC development strategy that include $800,000, leaving the so-called other the Agricultural and Rural Development major planks with zero development Program, Private Sector Development budget. Now if we want to see the Program, industrialisation including Jua milestones for this year in regard to the Kali and the Nguvu Kazi programme, agricultural and rural development and the last one is infrastructure programmes, which milestone are we development. The budget went on to going to be at, at the end of this financial specify that these should be promoted year, taking into consideration the focusing on job creation. programme for Jua Kali and Nguvu Kazi, which we think might assist in To this end, I would like to commend creating jobs for the ordinary people? specifically paragraph 46 of the speech, which talks about the formation of the My second concern is on the cost Ministerial Forum for Labour and reduction strategies. Mr Speaker, if we Employment and the establishment of a go through the budget estimates for this department at the EAC Secretariat financial year, particularly on the pillars responsible for labour and employment. on which the budget is said to be resting, That paragraph also insists on the scaling there are three important points here to up of the Jua Kali, micro finance and be noted. The first one is the anticipation savings and credit schemes, the of increase in costs, the second is the generation of wealth and employment need for cost saving and lowering of the creation. running costs, and the last is the realisation of efficiency and My concern is that most of these plans, effectiveness of the regional programs. especially those that are concerned with These requirements would mean the agriculture, rural development and job need to formulate a very clear strategy of creation, that is, the Jua Kali cost reduction. The listed actions to be

22 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates taken by the Secretariat, to me, are not Secretariat has concentrated on outreach concrete strategies for cost saving or activities and is planning to use about reduction with the ultimate goal of US $408,888. That is in table 8, page 36 achieving efficiency and effectiveness. of Volume II (a). On page 77 of Volume For example, the institution of a zero II, the Political Federation Department growth budget on certain budget items has been allocated US $420,000 and this may imply that the previous budget was has been justified on page 62, Volume I extravagant or may mean ineffective with plans for the outreach programmes implementation, resulting in poor as my colleagues have said. We would outputs. like the Secretariat to implement the Treaty by giving the East African It is claimed that the development Legislative Assembly its mandate – partners’ contribution to the consultant’s (Applause). works led to a saving of about US $300,000, yet the actual payment is US My fourth and last concern is on the $1.8 million. This is actually fooling this financial statements. Here, the total august House. The budget has indicated administration costs, including that there is a cost saving of US consultancy, is 53 percent of the $300,000 but the consultants have been recurrent expenditure of the year paid from the funding by external donors 2005/2006. Recruitment expenses are at about US $1.8 million, and in the very high and consultancy services, same document it is indicated that the which are funded by the donors is US contribution from outside donors or $1.87 million while contributions are US development partners was US $1.5 $1.5 million as I have already said. million. So I don’t know how the US There are a lot of pre-payments in the $300,000 has been put as a saving. financial statements for that year. Therefore, we would like a clear cost reduction strategy and we would like the To this end, unlike my fellow colleagues Secretariat not to cheat this House. in this House, I do not know how I can force the Secretariat that these My third point has been mentioned by workshops, both for the East African some of my colleagues and this is in Legislative Assembly and the Secretariat regard to the functions of the East should be reduced, and that the budget African Legislative Assembly. Page 83 feature on development of agriculture, of Volume I has left out the outreach, rural development as well as ensuring oversight and representation functions of employment, are taken on board as per the Assembly, and these have been the speech and as per the strategy for the replaced with workshops and seminars. Financial Year 2006-2010, taking in On that page the Secretariat has put mind that this is the second year of the some plans for us as the East African strategy to be implemented. I am afraid I Legislative Assembly to attend several might withdraw my US $1 to ensure that workshops and seminars. I don’t know these are taken on board. whether these are important for us as compared to the outreach function, I am not saying that the overall budget - which is now left for the Secretariat to the revenue and the expenditure - is bad, implement. In that respect, the but the reallocations within the

23 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates departments should be taken on board. an integrating process on the entire Thank you, Mr Speaker – (Applause). African continent. That was indeed something to write home about in terms Mr Mike Sebalu (Uganda): Thank you of what has been achieved, the plans very much, Mr Speaker. Allow me to ahead and the structures in place of the begin by congratulating you upon your East African Community. So, the election to that very important office and challenge we have in that respect, having all indications are that you are doing a been recognised at that level, is to build good job already – (Applause). Mr on the successes so far registered and be Speaker, allow me to also thank the able to move much faster. The best way Ugandan Speaker and the Ugandan we can do that is by ensuring that we Parliament for having given us this invest a lot in institutional development - opportunity to carry out our first giving institutions their rightful mandate, business in this august House, and for funding them appropriately to deliver on the facilitation that they have given their mandate and giving them enough through the support staff to ensure that space to operate and fulfil their mandate. we enjoy our deliberations. I would like to thank them very much for that. In that regard, the East African Legislative Assembly is no exception. I I would like, in the same vein, to believe that the institution and the congratulate and welcome the Republics Members of the East African Legislative of Rwanda and Burundi upon their Assembly are willing to play their part in signing of the accession treaties thereby terms of contributing to the process of formally entering into the community of ensuring that East Africa is one, and that East Africans. They are welcome on it develops to a level that will enhance board and we look forward to seeing the quality of life and way of living of their Members of Parliament join us as our people. We are ready to do that and we deliberate for the people of East we are ready to do it in tandem, in Africa. harmony and in collaboration with the other existing organs of the East African I would like to salute the Chairman and Community. the Council of Ministers for the budget that was presented to us yesterday, The new integration process is based on which largely includes and reflects the the operating principle of being people- aspirations of the East African people if centred, private sector-led and market- what is included in it is implemented to driven. These are very important aspects the letter. of the activities regarding the integration process. The people; how are the people I would also like to congratulate the factored within the processes? The Council of Ministers, the Secretariat and private sector; how enhanced is the the first East African Legislative private sector and how visible has it Assembly for the achievements that been made so that it can play its rightful were registered in the Financial Year role? Then the market and the market 2006/2007. Among them was the forces; how are they enhanced in order categorisation of the East African to supplement the other activities? Community as the best representation of

24 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Now when you are talking about the people of East Africa at the level of the When you go to all capitals, it is clear East African Community and Arusha, that unemployment is biting. Therefore, the Members of the East African if this is implemented and people begin Legislative Assembly represent that seeing results in this direction, then it aspect of people-centeredness because makes it very relevant and it motivates their views, aspirations and future can be the young people to support and best pronounced within the Legislative appreciate it as it alleviates their Assembly. Therefore, the Members of problems. That aspect, therefore, needs the Legislative Assembly and the to be commended. We pray that those Assembly as an institution is very that are entrusted with the responsibility important in terms of bringing people on of implementing it do so to a level of board. For that matter, it is important to satisfaction that will bring a lot of good empower and allow the Legislative to our people. Assembly to interact more with the people on matters to do with East Africa, As regards the private sector, because in terms of advocacy and in terms of the Community is private sector-led, I mobilising the populations to appreciate also see a linkage within the budget with and be aware of the on-goings in the the private sector regarding integration process. Therefore, the issue infrastructural development. When you of informing, educating, sensitising and handle the road systems, when you link mobilising the public towards a the region with railway connections and convergence of ideas in terms of where when you sort out the issue of power - we want to go as a region becomes power in Uganda is a problem; I am critical, and at the institutional level, the made to understand that the same goes Assembly can play a good role in this for Tanzania and I do not think Kenya’s respect. is sufficient. It may be slightly better, but I do not think they have got the Allow me to appreciate the structure of amounts of power that they need for the the budget as was presented by the drive of industrialisation. Chairman, Council of Ministers, Rt. Hon. Eriya Kategaya, in terms of feeding Therefore, I would like to recommend the three aspects that I have just talked that - because all our industrialists and about. When you look at people- the private sector use and need stable centeredness, you look at certain and reliable power supplies - the interventions that have been brought on industrialisation process should be board which answer the call of the enhanced. So I find it very relevant to ordinary people. This is because the link the private sector to the process, to process and the regional community get benefits from the process and to be should be relevant to the needs and the able to contribute to the process as well. aspirations of the people. So I would like The implementation will be the to applaud the Council of Ministers for challenge, but the planning has been bringing onboard the issue of brought out very well. employment. I think that is very critical especially when it comes to the young Concerning the market-driven aspect, generation of East Africa. definitely when you get all these

25 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates operating and you build a synergy, then aspects that need to be improved upon in the market is definitely enhanced. Where order to make it smoothly operational. people are employed and can have surplus funds for spending, where the There are still some taxes...Some industries are in full production and Ugandan businessmen complain that products are available, then the market when they cross over to, say, Tanzania, definitely operates, and at the end of the they are charged US$ 100. That US$ 100 day you get all those three aspects taken aspect needs to be harmonised so that it care of. The budget largely took those allows convergence in a uniform into account, and definitely I must manner. There has been that complaint, commend it and as a Parliament we are and I believe that the Council of going to play our role in terms of Ministers needs to intervene in this legislation so that we allow these aspects respect in order to encourage and ensure to move on, even as regards oversight. that the Customs Union operates and is This is where the issue of oversight beneficial to all. becomes critical, because these have been put forward, who is going to ensure Something that we must really take that the implementation is on course? I seriously in this financial year as believe the Parliament ought to come in Members of the East African Legislative at the level of oversight to ensure that Assembly is the negotiation and some of these aspects are on course. So implementation of the Common Market. we have a serious duty to perform in Our people really want us to come this. together. They are very interested in having one East Africa, but they want to I would also like to register the start seeing tangible benefits out of this successes so far registered in the process. That is: what is on the ground; implementation of the Customs Union. what is it in terms of tangible benefits? I Definitely, this was a touchy issue when think the Common Market can easily it was started, as our people had bring on board this aspect so that the reservations in terms of destabilising people begin to appreciate the process their economic activities. However, better. If they start moving freely, if they experience has proved that it has can enjoy the right of establishment and improved economic activities: The cost residence, if they can cross the borders of doing business is getting lower and freely, if they can sell their labour freely, bureaucracies are being eliminated, and I then we do not need to belabour with the think that the most important aspect to process since people will be able to see appreciate in this process is the fact that for themselves the benefits accruing unlike what was anticipated, that the from these arrangements. revenues from the individual Partner States would go down, thereby creating So the common market needs to be some problems has been proved wrong. enhanced because it provides the best On the contrary, all the Partner States’ opportunity for the ordinary people to revenue authorities have instead see the benefits of integration. I am glad registered improved revenue collection. I that provisions have already been made think that is something to write home and beginning 1st of July or thereabouts, about, however, there are still a few we are going to see negotiations

26 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates beginning, and it is anticipated that it informed, educated and sensitised in a will even take a shorter time than was deeper way and up to the grassroots earlier anticipated. So, I think that will level. I believe that the Council of be very useful in terms of getting our Ministers will consider more activities people to appreciate the process. and be able to take appropriate action.

When you look at the re-branding One thing that I would like the project, like one colleague did say, re- Chairperson of the Council of Ministers branding East Africa is the best thing to take note of and see how it can be that can happen, and I would like to handled is the process and programme of applaud that arrangement where the East reporting. This report is supposed to be Africans went to Europe and held a joint given to Cabinet to debate after which it tourism exhibition. I think that is a very is then taken to Parliament to debate good development. The re-branding at a before it is taken to the Secretariat for technical level is a good aspect and onward presentation to the Summit after funds have already been provided in the Council has considered it. However, budget to do that. It is to be supervised along the way you do not see the East by the Secretariat. However, I believe African Legislative Assembly featuring. this should be a shared responsibility My plea is that the Members of EALA at between all the players. I believe the a regional level should be afforded an East African Legislative Assembly can opportunity to debate this report and play a good role in this because after you make an input at a regional level, so that have re-branded, you get the legislators we allow all stakeholders to be part of to interact with the people across the this process. Definitely, the East African region so as to get them to appreciate the Legislative Assembly at the regional new interventions that are being made. I level is a serious stakeholder as the think that is something that we can do people’s representatives. I believe that together to ensure that our collective this would go a long way to ensure that effort is geared towards a common good, all stakeholders have made a and that the whole of East Africa is on contribution to the process. board. Our people also want to see joint Mr Speaker, the issue of the fast- activities; they would wish to see tracking of the East African political mobilisation where the Ugandans, federation is on. I happen to be a Kenyans and Tanzanians are together member on the Ugandan team, and the telling them about the East African people are quite interested in this federation. These are ideas we need to process. However, they really want look at for the future so that people get further consultations and so we need to to own the processes. If we went to go deeper. The six months that we were Kenya and all the members from given were definitely not sufficient for member states were available, then even deep consultations or even to go to the these questions of suspicions or fears lowest levels, and yet if people are going would definitely be eliminated. It would to get involved in a referendum and help in confidence building and ensure other processes like constitutional that the process is successful. Of course, processes, then we need to get them I have talked about translating the

27 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates strategic objectives into reality; people opportunity to follow the procedures as want to see tangible results coming. they are supposed to be due to the problems that we had as a Parliament, Finally Mr Speaker, I would like to given that we could not assume our thank the governments for increasing responsibilities in time. In future, we their levels of funding. I think that must will have an opportunity to make our be commended. When we were input to the budget process and be able attending the Summit, we were told from to inform the process before even our the report of the Secretary General that national budgets are made. But overall, all Partner States were up-to-date. I think we expect to see a higher level of we need to applaud our Partner State integration in the East African governments on that – (Applause) Community, given the indications in the because in such matters as integration budget and the provisions that have been where voluntarism is part of the game, made, and assuming that all the players you find that issues of subscription do their part to ensure that the collective normally create problems in terms of effort and outcome is of a higher level of funding, in terms of projections and even integration for the East African in terms of cohesion. To see that our Community. countries are up-to-date is something that we should really applaud and pray Mr Speaker, once again I thank you for that it is maintained and sustained. the opportunity you have afforded me to make my contribution to this budget In terms of funding, I would like to debate – (Applause). implore the Council of Ministers that we could also look at the ECOWAS funding Dr F. Lwanyantika Masha arrangement. You know, we have looked (Tanzania): Mr Speaker, this being my at different regional economic maiden speech in this House, let me also communities, but in terms of funding, take this opportunity to say how pleased the ECOWAS arrangement is seen as I am that you were elected, unopposed, being quite superior. It is sustainable to be the Speaker of this Assembly – because it is a question of taxing (Applause) - and in the few days I have anything coming into the customs union, known you, I am very pleased that a paltry one percent, but from the indeed you earned that job. interaction we had with some of them in some fora, we found out that they fund Let me also take this opportunity to say all their activities and even have a how pleased I am to know that the surplus. So, on top of the funding from members of the Summit have admitted our governments, I think we need to look Rwanda and Burundi, and as somebody at such arrangements. We are different has also said, I look forward to Members regional economic communities but we of EALA from Burundi and Rwanda need to inter-link in order to pick the being among us, hopefully very soon. best practices and apply them and perfect our co-operation. I also wish to thank the distinguished Chairman of the Council of Ministers for At the end of the day, I think that this the wonderful, very thorough statement budget is a good one. We have not had you gave us and the many documents

28 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates which we were given yesterday, some of which I have had an opportunity to go In addition to the little things that we through. will be adding to the work programmes that we are doing, we should see Mr Speaker, I see our period as an ourselves as setting up systems and Assembly and all the other organs and establishing mechanisms for the future institutions as being transitional to federal government. In that vein, I wish something much higher. The Treaty to suggest one area, probably- and I will looks not at the Community as an end in have a number of other suggestions here itself but as a road to a political - which perhaps is easier to accept. federation, which we all expect to have. A political federation then should be the We have been having people appointed central focus of whatever we do and to different jobs, and I have been reading whatever is provided in the budget. about job descriptions, but I do not know who actually finally hires a person to be It is very easy for us to pass a Bill employed in the Community. Who establishing a commission here, like the reviews the job descriptions to see that commission on Kiswahili, the Inter- they fit what they purport to do? I University Council, and have a budget understand the Council of Ministers ends for a road from Namanga to somewhere up appointing people; but who does the else; we can do all these little things and interviewing? I do not know. We need to think we are doing a wonderful job, but establish a lasting system for that kind of they will be meaningless unless they job. That kind of lasting system, to me, have a central focus. To me that central would be a re-creation of what we used focus is the political federation, which to have in the previous Community - a we aspire to, so all these commissions recreation of the East African Civil should be set up bearing in mind this Service Commission - (Applause). I political federation that we expect to think thought should be given to this have. Therefore, in terms of systems, I very urgently as we expand, as we have see us as a transitional arrangement more people being hired to do the towards that federal government that we various functions of the Community. will eventually have, and whatever we establish should hopefully fit into what We need to establish a civil service then will become the design of a federal commission whose membership, of structure that we ultimately must have. course, will be from among all the members, with proper directives to If we have an inter-university council ensure equitable representation of our and leave it as it is, it will not fit into that members in the Secretariat in the various focus. If we have a Kiswahili council, jobs. It should be a civil service where does it fit in that central focus? commission, which will also remove the All this must be established bearing in consideration of little things like the mind this central focus, creating, emoluments of staff, from the Council of hopefully, what in my mind would Ministers. Let a technical independent ultimately become either departments or commission do that job rather than ministries of a federal structure. This is having members of staff or Members of how I see it – (Applause). EALA, or members of the Court of

29 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Justice each lobbying the ministers to systems of legislation, all of them legal increase their emoluments and all that. I according to the Treaty. They could very think it is a little vain – (Laughter). We well bypass the Assembly and go to the should leave that function to a technical Summit through the Council of commission with proper directives. So, I Ministers and pass the budget, and it am asking that we establish a civil would still be very legal. After all, the service commission for the Community. money will be put in by the governments, so it is not a problem as it With the focus of what would become a would be for the national governments federal Parliament, and as new where they must go and raise taxes. The institutions become activated, we ought money is already in there. also to review either the Treaty or the Rules of Procedure, or any other We need to look at that procedure to mechanism that we have, to ensure that ensure that each organ, as it is we are not doing parallel things at the reactivated or activated, is not doing same time. For example, I realise that parallel work with another organ or other before the Legislative Assembly came, organs which existed before it. the Community was already established: Therefore, there is a need, in my the departments were there, the judgment, to review the parts of the Secretary General was in operation and Treaty, or that element which was giving so forth, and people had to operate. So, legislative authority to a system there was a mechanism for getting things bypassing what would then become done, including legislative actions, in the Parliament or the Assembly. We need to absence of an assembly, which was not review that area so that, hopefully, yet there. You had sectoral committees, nothing would go to the Summit as long which are put together by functionaries as we have a Council of Ministers. from ministries in the member states. Before it goes to the Summit, it would You have all these other co-ordinating have to come to EALA and from EALA, committees, and you have the Secretariat it can go back to the Summit for final sending recommendations to the Council authority. There is need to review that of Ministers, and the Council of part. Ministers of course recommends to the Summit, which has overall authority In the concept of this picture, this focus over the system. When the Summit of the federal system, I was reading the approves something, then it is final. documents and I see there is a department which deals with federation Then in comes the Legislative Assembly affairs; there is another department which, according to the Treaty and its dealing with Political Federation and own rules of procedure, has final there is the Legal, Rules and Privileges authority at least for the budget and Committee of the Assembly, which is other programmes. When the Assembly allowed to look at the Treaty and make was activated, the previous legislative recommendations to review the Treaty. I function that existed was not changed. was reading in the papers that the Court So within the Community we have two of Justice also has seen somewhere a parallel systems - unless I have misread need to review some of the elements in the documentation; we have two parallel the Treaty. However, all this is being

30 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates done in disparate areas without any I am going to say. There has been coordinated role. Then we have the fast- missing guidance from governments as tracking instruments, which will also to what the nature of the federation we inevitably end up in what will have to be are talking about shall be. This is what a review of the Treaty. the people of East Africa should have I think there is a need to put all these been addressing.. Those who are saying things together somehow; maybe get this “We do not want a federation”, what political affairs department and whatever federation do they not want: the others, involving the EALA, as some of American type; the Nigerian type; the my colleagues have requested, to ensure South African type; the Indian type? that we are involved in what ultimately The Wako Report mentions about 25 will become the final instrument of the different federations. And those who are federal government, the constitution. I saying that they want a federation, what am, therefore, hoping that EALA will be type of federation do they want? involved, - although it does not appear in (Interjection) - Fast-tracking is not a the documents – in the preparations and federation - (Laughter). drafting of a federal constitution, which ultimately is our goal. It is because there has been missing guidance from governments, from the On this question of the federal focus, Council of Ministers and from the including these fast-tracking committees Summit...that is why I begged your that have been set up, I must plead either indulgence in saying this; there has been ignorance or deficiency in thinking, but missing guidance as to what kind of there is something basically wrong federation. We should have waited until somewhere in the process. I have been we had that kind of guidance. Either following very closely what is taking there should have been what in place in Tanzania; I do not know what is parliamentary language is called a taking place in the other member states, “White Paper”, indicating some of the and from what I have read, these parameters of what it should be, so that committees are expected to ask people people would be saying “No, we do not whether they accept the fast-tracking to a want that kind of federation’; “we do not federation. And because this is the first want a president with these kinds of opportunity the people have had to powers”; “we do not want so many discuss the concept of federation at all, ministries”, or “we want this and that”! most are not answering the question At the moment they are talking in the whether we should fast-track it on the air. In the absence of a “White Paper,” lines of the recommendations of the maybe there should have been a draft Wako Committee. Most of them are constitution, that people can the address answering the question, “Should we very specifically. have the federation or not?” But from the documentation, the idea of the The Wako Committee suggests the federation is already signed on. establishment of a constitutional commission. To me that is an area where Something went wrong somewhere in if that kind of document is available and establishing these committees, and I beg somebody is making comments, you the indulgence of the ministers for what make comments that make sense. But to

31 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates say, “I accept federation” or “I do not least these people who have lived like federation”, which one is it? alongside the lake for years so that they (Applause) Nobody is even there to continue getting their fish for their defend anything. So, the poor fellows in meals. these committees, when they face some of the questions that are being asked I wish to say a word also about the Inter- they have no answer – (Laughter). To University Council. If there is any single me this is a gap, which I hope the element which has made East Africans ministers will address. feel they are all one, it is the fact that most of our leaders - our former leaders Let me say something very minor about especially - went through Makerere this Lake Victoria Basin Commission. I University, which was the only like the commission and I like the way it university available at that time. They is constituted, but because of some of the met, mingled and made friends. It was things which I have started seeing - I not difficult for them to talk with come from the lake area myself - on the empathy about the other leaders whom ground, there is something that makes they met at Makerere. Even for those me a little uneasy. Some people have who studied under the University of East been living, maybe 20 yards from the Africa in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salaam, it lakeshores for years and years and years. is the same thing. The educational When the rains go, they grow viazi and exchange programmes established other things, and they get their food. lasting relationships, which will help our That is where they live and that is where federation to be real. they draw water from. Those who are fishermen, leave alone the commercial The way we are going about it, the Inter- fishermen, but those who fish just for University Council of course has been daily food; they like fish and all they established; I am not sure what its role want is to send in a net and get a catch is. Are we seeing it as a nucleus of a for their meal for the day. What is future university of East Africa? I do not happening on the ground is that they are know. Is it a nucleus of a department of being told that they should all leave the higher education in the federation? I do shore area and they should stop getting not know - (Laughter). It is doing some any fish from there. I think this is not work; yes, wonderful work. We need to right. either refocus the Inter-University Council or to have a department within We will be developing people who will the Secretariat, which will look at hate the federation and the Commission, education for the purpose of bringing not because they do not want it, but together the people of East Africa because there has been no sensitisation through their education systems - on their means of livelihood over the (Applause). years, and now they do not know how to do anything else. Moreover, they are not We need to have a focus that will look at being given any alternative for their something that was said by one of the livelihood. So, hopefully, this members here, the exchange Commission will have consideration, not programmes - going to another for the commercial fishermen, but at university, looking into the costs that are

32 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates being established that discriminate those branding, and you come and brag about who are not from the same member it and ask for more money! Yes, what states. We should look at this was done was good but I am not sure educational programme as a major way that it is as big as it now sounds. Maybe of bringing our people together. there is something more to it than I have Let me commend the media for the way seen. I would appreciate it if I got the they have tried to cover the activities of document which explains how this thing the Community, especially in the last will work. I was reading the papers and I few months. This sensitisation, this did not get it out of the papers, which I people-centred approach which we are got yesterday. However, I insist that we talking about, will not work unless we must have a very strong publicity involve the media. The media must be mechanism in the Secretariat. If any area brought aboard to do that work with us. needs to be beefed up, it is this Yes, EALA must be involved as well, department. I do not know how big it is but if the media is not sympathetic or at the moment and how it works, but in understanding towards what we are principle I think that is where we need to doing, they will misquote us and they put our money...if we want this people- will not publish the things we say. We centred sensitisation to work. may think we are doing a wonderful job going around saying big things, but if the Maybe finally, Mr Speaker, let me say media is not with us, things will not something about what hon. Masaburi work. So we must have a very strong mentioned. I was reading in the budget information department in the papers about savings just as he did. You Secretariat, which does this work with have so much money that you are the media. The media must be brought spending on a programme or a project, on board. That is why I commend the then you go to development partners and effort, which has been made in the last get money to do the same job. You are two three months to bring the media on still doing the same thing with the same board. amount of money or more - as he has found out - and then you say you have I keep hearing about this re-branding made savings. I am not a budget expert project. I must say, if there is anything or an economist, but I am not sure about which I can claim to know from a that concept of savings. If there are any technical point of view, it is information. savings, I would see them as a surplus I have been reading about this re- item and then I would understand them branding and everybody is praising it, as savings. Otherwise, this is just but you will be surprised if I said I do budgeting gymnastics – (Laughter). not understand it - (Laughter). It is just another word for “publicity” which has Mr Speaker, I realise, as others have been made to appear so big, especially if said, that we do not have much time to you call it “corporate branding”; it debate the budget. It is unfortunate that it makes it become so big. Essentially, it is has been brought to us in the way it has. public relations, publicity and all that. I think it should be registered with the That is what it is. The fact that you go to Secretariat and the Council of Ministers a trade fare and you are all seen as East that while we understand the Africans, that is part of corporate circumstances which have made it this

33 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates way this time, it would be unfortunate if Mr Speaker, to achieve what the minister we had to go through the same thing has raised in this report, I believe that next year. A budget document with all the institutions and the organs of this these other documents that you receive a Community should go ahead to respect day before, and we are expected to each other. They should avoid the discuss them in one day and pass them tendencies of hegemony; trying to be on the third day! People of East Africa seen and wanting to make it look like will have good reason to think we are one institution is bigger than the other. useless. But, I understand the In so doing, we shall be avoiding the circumstances under which we have parallel structures that hon. Dr Masha been brought to this situation. In the talked about, and therefore duplication future, please involve us early enough in of functions. In this way, we shall the process and allow us enough time to achieve what the minister mentioned in actually discuss it and debate it. the report as cost saving ventures. But even then, in this process I wonder why With that, I will have to grudgingly we would talk about cost savings or accept the budget as presented; but savings. The Community as it is today is please take note, in the future I will be a very young. I would rather that if they little harder – (Laughter). Thank you are saving from one function that money very much, Mr Speaker – (Applause). is reallocated to other areas that need financing. Mr Bernard Mulengani (Uganda): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to On page 5, the Minister mentions the join the rest of my colleagues who have positive impact of increased intra-East risen up to congratulate you upon your African Community trade and growth of attainment of the “Speakership”. I would revenue, which was felt. I want to also like to congratulate my fellow recommend this particular idea as an colleagues for having eventually been advantage of integration. On a positive sworn in. Mr Speaker, I would like to note, I wonder whether the Secretariat focus on the budget report. I will not get has gone ahead to analyse whether the into the figures because the time that current situation of the appreciation of was given to us to look into the figures the East African currencies is as a result was not enough. of intra-trade, and therefore the common external tariff that is being put in place. On page 3 of the report, the Chairman of We are looking forward to getting a the Council of Ministers raised very substantive explanation as the Assembly, pertinent issues in paragraph three. The to see whether what the Minister is only thing I want to emphasize, as has raising is true, that the trade creation already been mentioned, is that all of us effect in the Community is surpassing are aware that the Treaty establishes the possibilities of trade diversion. institutions of the Community and their functions are clearly described in Mr Speaker, on page 6, as we move to Chapter 3, Article 9 through to Chapter start on the common market, there are 10, Article 73. various macroeconomic policies that need to be harmonised or converged. Whereas my colleagues have risen to say

34 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates that all indications show that we are and into greater conformity with the ready to transcend to the Common WTO provisions. Market, but today as we talk I think we are aware that we shall only attain the Mr Speaker, on page 9, the Minister full Customs Union by 2010, when the raised a very important issue about the segregate tariffs from Tanzania and Rift Valley Railways Company, which Uganda that were levied to attain the has done business with Uganda and zero tariff after the five or six years are Kenya in isolation of Tanzania. Tanzania fully implemented. has decided to go on with India and the Chinese study team to concessionaire the What I am trying to raise, Mr Speaker, is Tazara Railway line. One of the that we still have a lot of overlapping advantages, we believe, in coming problems, like multiple memberships of together is to enhance our bargaining our countries of the East African power. The fact that we have left one of Community. As we talk today, Uganda, our own member states to negotiate Kenya and Rwanda are members of alone shows that we are trying to COMESA and IGAD, and Tanzania is a jeopardise the Community and we are member of SADC. We are now talking also trying to leave them on a weaker of the economic partnership agreement bargaining side. Because if we agreed to as a Community. We really need to discuss or negotiate as a Community to harmonise if we have to successfully concessionaire the railway line, we transcend to the Common Market. It is would have had a better deal than true that the Customs Union Protocol is possibly what exists today (Interjection) in place and the East African Customs Management Act was passed, but we are Mr Sebalu: Mr Speaker, the information not implementing these things on the I would like to give regarding that ground. It is high time - as some of my subject is to do with the railway group colleagues suggested - that we started that was concessioned to take up the being seen building institutions that Kenyan and the Ugandan railways. propel themselves around the ultimate There are issues of their capacity goal of s political federation. financially, which are coming up. Even in our local Parliament here, these issues In paragraph 10 of page 7, I am came up when they had to be assisted to personally happy to learn that we, as the get some loans. So how are they dealing East African Community, participated in with these issues at a regional level, the WTO trade policy meetings last because when we are doing business, we October. These meetings provide an really need to look out for people who opportunity for us to address what we will bring their money and add value to consider as imbalances in the WTO the process? (Interruption) Agreement, and to even improve access conditions for our exports into other The Speaker: Are you informing or markets. However, Mr Speaker, there is asking a question? one question that we need to answer; this is the question regarding formulating Mr Sebalu: It is information by way of legislations that will bring the East a question – (Laughter). African trade regimes more up-to-date

35 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Mr Mulengani: Thank you very much, Ministers that, let what belongs to hon. Sebalu. I will redirect the Caesar go to us and what belongs to the “information by way of question” to the technical people go to them. Chairman of the Council of Ministers. Now, what this brings to my mind is that I would like to raise another issue on it is caused by the fact that member page 34. From the budget, which I states are in multiple groupings...because perused through briefly, one of the eventually the railway line mandates of Parliament is oversight role concessioneering for Tanzania is being and supervision. I do not know what that done by Zambia. Really, we need to be means to those that wrote the Treaty; seen to be moving towards the does it mean sitting in the office and attainment of the vision of the calling for documents, reading them Community. satisfactorily and then supervising? Or is there also an element of supervision The issue on page 21 has already been through observation? The budget as it raised and I would not want to discuss it stands today monitoring and evaluation again. It regards sensitisation on the have been left in the hands of the programmes of fast-tracking the Secretariat. Possibly it is true, as hon. Dr federation and outreach programmes, Masha put it, that it is because of the and leaving out the legislature. I would existence of parallel structures, which not want to go into that again because will require amendment of the Treaty. almost every member that spoken has Perhaps that is why some of these things hinted on this particular area, but one are still as they are. thing I would like to raise on this is that we need to know whether what we are Mr Speaker, there must be a provision doing as members of the East African that allows the bringing on board of new Legislative Assembly, and therefore the organs within the Community. If a Community, is consistent with our function has been handled by an existing domestic way of doing things. organ and the right organ is put in place, the old organ should hand over the role For example, if in Uganda Parliament is to the rightful organ. It is very important involved in the budget process and for the smooth working of the members are obliged to handle the Community. I would also request that political issues, in Uganda I have not what we are doing in the Community seen any Commissioner or Permanent should portray the image of the region. Secretary coming out in public and We should not be seen fighting for telling Ugandans to vote NRM. That authority and grumbling for what is not alone would tantamount to dismissal due to us. If what we are talking about is from the job. Likewise, the Treaty itself correct, Mr Speaker, then I would tells us how EALA can interface with request the necessary bodies to take the nationals. It prohibits the staff from, action. in any way, dealing with the nationals. That would be seen to be biasing the Our colleagues in the previous Assembly decisions that the technical people would raised many issues. I am only two weeks be taking in their daily routine work. So old in the Community, but I have got a it is our humble appeal to the Council of lot on my brain regarding what the First

36 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Assembly had to go through to reach the okay. So, is it possible to reallocate level the Community and EALA are some of these savings to other areas that today. I would not like us in the Second still lack funds? If it is possible, then Assembly to go through the same. I want why don’t we do it? us to have a smooth working relationship with the Secretariat. The other question I want to ask is, if I want to tell you that, for instance, in this budget comes to the Assembly, do the Parliament of Uganda, Members of we have the mandate to reallocate the Parliament are not restricted entry to any resources therein? If not, then what is premises; not even in the ministries. I am our role in this budget process, Mr surprised that when I was in Arusha, I Speaker? (Applause) I would rather the took time off and wanted to go and look budget does not come to the Assembly, at the buildings, only to reach the door and the Assembly is merely told that this that demanded for an access card. Now, is the budget and we move on, because how will I interface with the statistics this is just putting icing on the cake! I department if I want to take decisions or usually want to be party to a position to debate using figures? How will I that I will add value to. If my position is access the planning section of the just to talk and then things go on, it is Secretariat? If I wanted to know like them saying, “They have talked and something very fast without going things are over. They like talking and we through my Speaker but needed to just have pleased them. They have talked but liaise with the Secretary General, why we are going to do what we want”, I will should I have restrictions on access? not be party to that, Mr Speaker.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, as I was reading The Auditor-General’s report has briefly through the documents, and as the highlighted certain issues, but I think Chairman of Council of Ministers that will be handled at an appropriate presented in paragraph 48, I observed time. that there are various savings that have been made. Saving is a good culture, but Mr Speaker, I would like to lastly at this particular moment the emphasize the issue that the MTEF Community is just growing. So my (Medium Term Expenditure Framework) question is, why should we go in for raised. To me it was very serious and I savings programmes, or go for items that do not know whether it was equally look for savings in the Community’s serious to other honourable members, budget whereas we have a lot of things where they had to entrench a particular to handle that need financing? We would office on a certain function. We would rather go for value for money, other than like to see that issue handled because going for a programme for saving costs. other programmes in the MTEF have not been entrenched by particular sections For example, one of the programmes for that are meant to handle them. saving costs would be to reduce staff, but we still want staff and need to recruit With those few remarks, Mr Speaker, I more. One of the savings would be want to support the motion and the looking at emoluments’ reduction, but budget. I thank you. we are still saying the position is not

37 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Mr Christopher Nakuleu (Kenya): Mr Speaker, I would also wish to say Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to that last time we had the Summit of the start by congratulating you on having Heads of State we were taken through a been elected the Speaker of this programme that we did not follow Assembly. My contribution will be very strictly. Initially we were told that there brief. was the issue of the East African Anthem. Up to this time, I do not know I want to first comment on publicity and which song was selected to be adopted the marketing of the East African by the Assembly. Now, as one way of Community as a tool. I wish to publicising East Africa, I am suggesting commend the Secretariat for the good that the East African National Anthem job that it has done in making sure that should be sung alongside those national the East African Community is known anthems of the respective Partner States. by every citizen of East Africa. However, in as much as I commend that, Also, as a matter of publicity, I would I would wish to say that not much has wish to commend the East African Court been done. You may not have known of Justice for the landmark ruling it this but some pastoral communities in made in East Africa late last year. It Northern Kenya did not know that the might have been a very painful ruling, East African Community had been in but it was one way in which the East existence for the last five years, until African Court of Justice made sure that hon. Lotodo and I were elected as East Africa exists. For us the Kenyans, Members of this Assembly – (Applause). we were in pain as a result of the ruling, but I have realised that it really I would also wish to say that the publicised East Africa in a better way. Speaker, alongside other members who are here for the second term, visited I also want to talk about regional conflict Lodwar and other parts of the northern and peace. One of the components of districts of Kenya, namely: Karamoja, East Africa is to enhance peace in the Isiolo, Samburu and Pokot, but it was a region, and we will have failed in our one day’s event. Immediately you left, objectives if insecurity still exists. I want there was no reinforcement of ideas. to quote a scenario. In November last What am I saying? Mr Speaker, I would year when we were just about to report like to say that for East African issues to here, the Uganda People’s Defence be highly realised, a lot of publicity has Forces (UPDF) bombed the pastoral to be done and the Secretariat has to communities on the Kenyan side and allocate sufficient funds for this in either about 15 people lost their lives and the media or through the local 10,000 livestock were killed. As a institutions, such as the local person who comes from that place, I am governments of each of the partner states at pains to explain to those people the and ministries of social services. This concept of East Africa. I am really at will ensure that the ideas and whims of pains. I therefore urge the Partner States the East African Community are highly that should such a thing happen, let them institutionalised. sit together at the highest level before a decision is made that may result in the loss of lives of East Africans.

38 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

I want to concur with hon. Lotodo that each other and we should be supporting we come from warring communities each other. where the issue of conflict resolution has to be addressed. I want to say that our Mr Speaker, sir, I say this because my committee chairman is here and we will very brief association with the East work hand in hand with the Partner African Legislative Assembly and the States of East Africa to make sure that Community tends to portray a picture there is no more bombing. where there is friction. We as the East Mr Speaker, I want to be brief because I African Legislative Assembly, we do stood several times but I think I did not not want to be at war with the catch your eye. On the budget, I have Secretariat, nor do we want to be at war very little to comment. I am an with any other organ or institution of the economist and it is against my principle Community. We would request that the to comment on an issue that I have not other organs of the Community accept been party to and something that I have this position from EALA and reciprocate not gone through. So I may only support accordingly. this budget basing on the things that happened in Kenya. Mr Speaker, sir, the importance of this Community cannot be gainsaid. The The Council of Ministers may say, “We advantages that we as East Africans are had no time to bring you on board likely to derive from an effectively because of the problems you had and working Community cannot be gainsaid; you were not legitimate to the process by they are enormous. We, East Africans, then”. Due to the time factor, we will are not coming together to pull together pass this budget but in future we will not our poverty. We are not coming together accept to be rubber stamps. so that we may remain poor. We are coming together in this Community so With those few remarks, I want to that we can pull together our resources support the budget – (Applause). for the benefit of the people of East Africa. In this respect, it is therefore Mr Gervase Akhaabi (Kenya): Thank very important, while preparing our you very much, Mr Speaker. My programmes, to ensure that each comments are going to be very brief. programme that we have prepared is Unlike a national assembly where you geared towards maximisation of results. may have government and opposition parties, at the East African Legislative In this case, therefore, I am extremely Assembly we do not have that. The roles thrilled to note, from the policy of the various organs of the Community statement by the Chairman of the have been clearly spelt out in the treaty Council, the information regarding establishing this Community. If we play infrastructure in this region. We are not our roles properly, these roles are going to make any progress in terms of supposed to be complementary to each trade, investments or in any other respect other. As organs of the Community, we unless we develop efficient should not be seen to be jostling for infrastructures for the people of this power. We should be complementing Community. There are sections of this region that have historically been

39 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates disadvantaged. Regrettably, we do not Mr Speaker, sir, with regard to the issue seem to be paying any attention or to be of fast-tracking the political federation, I addressing the plights of these areas at totally agree with Dr Masha. I do not all either in this policy statement or in even know why we are talking about it. the budget. The people of East Africa are already Mr Speaker, in this particular respect, I together. I was born in Busia and it assume that when this budget was being really hurts that when I come from my prepared, Rwanda and Burundi’s home in Busia, Kenya, and I want to go admission into the Community was to Busia, Uganda, or Tororo or Bugiri already a foregone conclusion because where my friend, hon. Mulengani, comes they had already been admitted in from for a drink, somebody asks me for November last year. Rwanda and a passport; a passport to visit my Burundi have special needs that I have relatives in Uganda! It makes no sense. not seen addressed in this policy or in We have intermarried and we do not the budget. need a federation to interact. The people of this region will support the Mr Speaker, sir, the northern parts of Community and the political federation Kenya, for example, have not been if they can see the benefits of that addressed in this. The problems of federation. insecurity in the Northern parts of Kenya and Uganda are essentially economic Mr Speaker, to do all this, we will need problems. It is because of lack of certain to remove obstacles or things that resources in these areas that we have separate people, and we have to explain these perennial conflicts, but we are not to the people. Mr Speaker, in my very, addressing this. As we move forward as very respectful view, technocrats cannot a community that aims at bringing explain to the people of East Africa the benefits to the people of East Africa, we benefits of the East African Community, ought not to make any person in this of the Common Market, of the Customs region or area feel that they have been Union, or even of a political federation. left behind. They are not in a position to explain this to the people of East Africa. Consequently, Mr Speaker, I really plead with the Council of Ministers to Mr Speaker, sir, may I also address a seriously consider the special needs of very sensitive issue that has been partly the peoples of Rwanda and Burundi, touched on by reference to the Inter- northern Kenya and northern Uganda University Council for Eastern Africa? and the development of infrastructure in Honourable Dr Masha raised a question, those areas so that they too can transport and it is a relevant one. In East Africa their animals for export, slaughter or for today, we do not have any established marketing. The fact that they are credit transfer system for the students pastoralists, like in northern Kenya, does that are accessing higher education. In not make them economically unviable. East Africa today, we do not have Indeed, pastoralism should be developed common standards of entry, for example, in this region to make it a viable to higher education. That is why we have economic undertaking. in some instances a person with a “D plus” from Kenya being admitted to one

40 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates university when the next university India has not made the strides that it has cannot admit such a person. because it has chosen to remain in poverty. They had to invest heavily in Mr Speaker, I see the Inter-University technological development. Why are we Council for East Africa as a standards not doing that? Why are we not and quality assurance mechanism for exploring the opportunities offered to this region, to ensure that the standards this region by the jua kali and the nguvu of education in this region are kazi enterprises? Why don’t we find a comparable to any other in the world. I way to harness them and use them as see the Inter-University Council for East incubators for technological Africa as an institution that emphasises development in this region? (Applause) relevance. We have a number of degree programmes in this region which when Mr Speaker, I come from the Lake you examine are totally irrelevant for our Victoria basin and the kind of present needs for development. So we environmental degradation that has been need a body that is going to ensure that witnessed in the basin in the past 30 or we have high standards of education and so years is amazing. Those of us who that the education is relevant. grew up in that region knew of fish species in rivers that flow into Lake Mr Speaker, there was, in the chairman’s Victoria that have now died out. We policy statement, very little, if any, knew of crops and other plants that have emphasis or policy direction on the issue died out, all because of environmental of scientific and technological training. degradation in the area. And it is all the As I said earlier, we are not coming way from the catchments areas for the together to pool our poverty so that we Lake Victoria basin - Mt Elgon, the remain in poverty, and we are not going Cherengani - right up to the Rift Valley. to industrialise without technical How are we addressing this? What are education and training. I would really we doing about these issues? have wanted to see, in the budget and in the policy statement, a direction that we Therefore, Mr Speaker, I would really want to develop to and encourage urge that as we talk of allocation of technological training in this resources, the issue of environmental community, and that technological degradation in the Lake Victoria basin is training would be co-ordinated and given serious attention. I have no doubt correlated with the Inter-University that it is indeed because of the Council for East Africa in terms of environmental degradation in the area research as well as the Lake Victoria that we are having this menace of the Basin Commission and other water hyacinth that my friend, hon. institutions. I have not seen that. Karan, was referring to.

Mr Speaker, these, in my very honest Mr Speaker, there is hardly any view, are matters that we should communication or transport on Lake emphasize. We should encourage our Victoria and yet if properly developed, respective Partner States to allocate this is an area or mass that could be used money for research for development of to interlink the people of East Africa in science and technology in this region. such a way that it eases their

41 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates communication. A lot has been said by Treaty, to come and sit in Kampala. It my colleagues and I do not wish to has given an opportunity to our people to repeat what they have said in detail, but I hear and therefore know more about the believe that if Members of this issues and affairs of the East African Assembly, or the members of the Community. I want to thank the Rt. Hon. relevant committee of this Assembly had Speaker of the Parliament of Uganda and been involved in the preparations or at the Parliamentary Commission for some stage of the preparations of this allowing us to be in this Chamber, and budget, they would have made a great for all the support they have accorded us. difference. Mr Speaker, in fact I was of Let me also thank all the departments, the mind to oppose this budget, but the which have assisted us by way of greater interest of the East African enabling the Assembly to sit in this Community dictates that I should Chamber. support it. I, therefore, reluctantly support it - (Applause) More importantly, as we are looking towards the debate of the budget, I thank The Speaker: Honourable members, the hon. Minister, the Chairperson of the before I suspend the House, I would like Council of Ministers, for a budget to recognise in the gallery Members of which, from the outlook, is balanced, the Ugandan Parliament, and the Clerk comprehensive, and touched on many of to Parliament - (Applause) I now the issues which are within the suspend the proceedings of the House framework of the integration process, until 3.00 p.m. and subsequently the political federation.

Proceedings suspended at 1.10 p.m. Mr Speaker, when we had the On resumption at 2.58 p.m., the Speaker, opportunity to join the National Mr Haithar Abdi Abdirahim, presiding Consultative Council charity walk on Saturday last week, we had the Mrs Margaret Zziwa (Uganda): Thank opportunity to hear very good speeches, you very much, Mr Speaker. I start by and one of the issues raised was on the also echoing what my colleagues have aspect of communication amongst our said this morning to congratulate you people. It is true we are one people, but most heartily upon your election to this it is very embarrassing that we cannot very important office. We shall accord effectively communicate with each other you the necessary support, and we are leave alone transact official and behind you. In the same breath, let me unofficial business together. The issue of also congratulate my colleagues, the language is very important. Therefore, honourable Members of the East African please allow me to salute the Minister’s Legislative Assembly, upon their budget because in section 41, the elections and swearing in this second establishment of the East African Assembly of the East African Kiswahili Commission is a move in the Legislative Assembly. right direction. I want to reiterate the words of the honourable Minister that Mr Speaker, I do not want to miss the we are at different capacities of knowing opportunity of thanking you for and speaking Kiswahili. Uganda was accepting, under Article 55(1) of our acknowledged to have some capacity,

42 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates although of course limited in some other who spoke earlier on thought that areas. perhaps Uganda has overcome this menace, but I want to say that the Let me take this opportunity to say that I menace is still there and we look am looking forward to this Commission towards the Lake Victoria Basin working hand in hand with the ministries Commission - and maybe also other of education to enhance the capacities of initiatives which were started earlier – to schools and of teachers so that the help address this problem. language is taught in our schools, and also to relate and liaise with the One of the officers whom we found at ministries of gender, culture and the landing site mentioned that when the community development so that, for water hyacinth harvester goes in to instance, cultural institutions, which are harvest the hyacinth, the hyacinth comes very fundamental when it comes to with a lot of fish and other animals in the attitudes of people, are properly lake. This means that if the harvesting of sensitised about appreciating this the hyacinth is done irregularly, many of language. You will acknowledge that the fish species and the aqua-culture will Uganda has had historical quagmire be lost. So, we think that an effort should where, for instance, the Kiswahili be made to find a better way of handling language was used by people who went this problem so that the weed does not terrorising others. So it created a go into the fish sanctuaries, or end up dissenting attitude towards Kiswahili. I even suffocating our fishermen and want to request that when the many other aqua culture resources. Commission goes into place, it should relate with the relevant ministries to Mr Speaker, in the same breath the issue reach out to the cultural institutions to be of security on the lake was mentioned. able to make them appreciate the Many of our fishermen, because of the Kiswahili language so that they can be competition for the resources in the lake, able to reach out to the population. Let do not have adequate security. Many of us have the religious leaders also them are attacked, and at times they are brought on board for purposes of not in position even to mention who are popularising this language. I am sure exactly attacking them. One of the with the Kiswahili language many of our requests which they made, which I think people will be able to relate and to should be handled by both the ministries integrate, and the political federation responsible for transport in the Partner will be achieved even faster. States and also by the Lake Victoria Basin Commission, is the issue of Mr Speaker, sir, I want to comment on provision of security on the waters of the Lake Victoria Basin Commission, Lake Victoria. which also has appeared in section 41 of the budget. We had an opportunity last I want also to mention that I had an Saturday to visit Port Bell at Luzira, opportunity to interact in the Great which is the port in Uganda where ships Lakes Region Conference. One of the land. I want to mention that one of the concerns raised in this conference was landing sites was quite untidy due to the the lack of standardised policies, cultures heavy water hyacinth. One honourable and practices. On the issue of fishing,

43 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates you will find that Uganda is quoted to into Kampala, all the rails are almost at have fishing nets of 20 inches, while the verge of collapsing, and there seems Tanzania and Kenya have nets of 16 to be no programme to rehabilitate some inches. This means that many of the of those lines, leave alone the fact that Ugandan fishermen are not able to catch even the port itself is now in the hands fish less than the 20 inches that they are of the Rift Valley Authority. As hon. allowed. And while they preserve it, Kimura mentioned, in addition to having their colleagues in Kenya and Tanzania only one ship operating, even the ones harvest it. I think this is an anomaly, which are there seem to have no which many local governments have programme of being rehabilitated. pointed out and have called for a standardisation of the disparity. I think it Mr Speaker, this area is very vital for the is a responsibility of this august House integration of our people: People of to address that anomaly, because I Bukoba and Mwanza would be able to believe it is for the betterment of all our reach Luzira within two hours if the ship people that we have similar practices and was in operation. So I call upon this Rift cultures in order to preserve the Valley Authority - and government to resources of Lake Victoria. give them support so that our people can relate, integrate and support themselves Mr Speaker, in section 12, the in terms of trade. honourable minister in his speech talked about transport. I appreciate that As part of the re-branding effort, Mr transport is a key aspect in integration Speaker, I want to propose that all the and especially with regard to movement sector ministries and departments within of our people. Certainly road transport our national governments should take up seems to be relatively cared for: I think it the issue of the East African Community is comprehensively addressed, but I as a cross-cutting issue. Let us not wait think railway transport needs a lot more for the Minister in charge of the East thought. When it comes to specific African Community to be the only one sections, which are important, they look to talk about the issues of the East towards the privatised arrangements. It is African Community. If the Ministry for good that the Rift Valley Railways Agriculture, in its policy statement gave Corporation has come to take on the accountability on how it is fairing on the Kenya Railways Corporation and the East African Community agenda, it Uganda Railways Corporation, but the would send very important signals to the capacity of this private sector should be people in each of the countries. critically looked into. If the governments think that this private sector needs to be Likewise, let us also see to it that during supported financially, I think they also the budgeting process in the Partner need to express the interests of the areas States, other than budgeting only for the which need to be attended to first. activities which are exclusive to the national agendas, activities which can When we visited Luzira, which I will enhance areas of integration are also keep on referring to, we realised that, the budgeted for. In the Ministry of Local railway line which comes from Port Bell Government, for instance, the local to transport many of the heavy cargo governments or authorities in the border

44 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates areas should be assisted to improve on transacting business, and so that there is the facilities that they share across the effective political supervision of the borders. I think that would help in re- organs of the Community. branding or popularising this Community, and people would own the It is true that they are only three Community as their own. ministers, but even then, if the three are effectively in Arusha, then there will be Mr Speaker, issues of immigration touch accountability, particularly from the very seriously on the movement of our Secretariat to the Council of Ministers, people. Freedom of movement is vital if and we shall have some of the we are talking about integrating and programmes which would have federating. I want to commend the otherwise gone at a slow pace take the efforts being made at the Jomo Kenyatta impetus of the political direction. I had International Airport and the Dar-es- the opportunity to visit the offices of the Salaam International Airport now. For a ministers, which are located within the long time they had remained with those AICC complex in Arusha. I think it is an immigration cards which were anomaly to have the ministers on the specifically designed for Kenya and side of the Assembly when the Tanzania. Uganda took the lead, and Executive, the Secretariat and the now, going in and out of those two Judiciary are on the other side. Even the countries, the forms you fill have an East facilities looked so meagre; they did not African design. I want to say that we look comprehensive enough. If we want should give the people of East Africa the our ministers to live and operate in opportunity to identify themselves as the Arusha, let us also improve on the East African people. facilities that they will be using while in Arusha. Of course that is not to Similarly, when issues of sovereignty are underestimate our needs as Members of being dealt with, our East African Parliament: We need offices and places passport should be expanded to ensure of operation. that our people are not inconvenienced, and also so that the people do not just Mr Speaker, sir, I would also like to carry the passports as a by the way. Let appreciate the minister for talking about them be confident in carrying the the gender community development plan passport knowing that it will give them in section 41, which has been legitimate passage even farther than the inaugurated. It is true that issues of borders of East Africa. gender, youth and HIV AIDS, among others, are cross cutting. In every Mr Speaker, sir, I want to salute the development programme, we should Summit for appointing ministers for the have these issues appear. However, you East African Community. I congratulate find that when the resources are the ministers who have been appointed. I inadequate, these are the issues which want to add my voice to the rest of the are relegated to the side and not taken on honourable Members who have called board. I want also to mention that the for them to be real and for their presence responsible department should work to be felt in Arusha, particularly when closely with our national governments to the East African Legislative Assembly is ensure that these agendas are also given

45 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates priority. You find that some countries I call upon the Council of Ministers to are doing better than others, and that in- give us the opportunity and allocate the equilibrium brings in a doubt whether money so that we are able to go out and we are committed to the same cause. I share this vision with our people and get would like to see my sisters in Kenya, their views so that we move towards Tanzania, Burundi, Rwanda and Uganda having a political federation as is the know that within the Community there is aspiration of by our people. I thank you, a definite programme to improve the Mr Speaker – (Applause). woman gender representation and issues, which directly affect or concern the Ms Lydia Wanyoto-Mutende woman gender and to see that the issues (Uganda): I thank you, hon. Speaker. It which regard, for instance, HIV/AIDS, is an honour for me to also give my which have a gender connotation are maiden speech in the second Assembly addressed directly. of the East African Legislative Assembly. Before I get into the details, Mr Speaker, you will appreciate that as with your permission, I will begin with a the second East African Legislative condolence message. Assembly comes in, many of the issues which the first Assembly touched on Hon. Speaker, I join you and my were not concluded. We have an colleagues to add my condolences to the obligation to push forward many of family of one of our former staff, Mr those issues. I want to salute the efforts Sammy Chesire, and to the people of of the first Assembly in the Nanyuki I, II Marakwet whom he was very fond of in and of course the Nanyuki III. We look Eldoret. Mr Chesire was not only a towards the commitment of joint member of the team of the Hansard negotiations in the WTO. We look Reporters in our Assembly, but he was towards joint efforts in the transport also our Media Relations Officer, an sector and in all these organs which have assignment he had taken with been listed. enthusiasm. At the time of his death I was aware like other Members who As I wind up, I want to say that if we knew him, that he was pursuing a continue to live in our sovereign Masters Degree in the same field of identities it is only beneficial to the Media Relations and Marketing. individual states, but not to us as the peoples of East Africa. Let us live the As the East African Legislative commitment the leaders in the summit Assembly, we will miss Chesire because have expressed. Let us take on the he worked so hard to give the Assembly opportunity which the leaders in the visibility through the media. And I will summit have put forward and more miss him personally because we worked importantly, let us have the opportunity together - I was part of the team of to let our peoples appreciate that united honourable members in the ad hoc we stand and divided we shall fall. Let Committee on Media Relations in the them appreciate the benefits of the last Assembly. Mr Speaker, I hope that integration. And I think the East African at an appropriate time you will be able, Legislative Assembly is a very important using your office, to put in place another partner and a stakeholder in this venture. team and officer to quickly fill the gap of

46 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates media relations that we need badly as a agenda when within the Community we legislative assembly. As you know, our are very un-African. media relations are still wanting and we need somebody that will link us to the At a funeral of this nature, how many of press. Honourable members, during our us will be in Eldoret on Saturday; and swearing in ceremony in Arusha, the how many of us were in Sironko? How media that you saw and the publicity that many of us were in North Eastern Kenya we got was partly the contribution of the when hon. Aden passed on? These are late Chesire; may his soul rest in peace! the things I really want to request you, Mr Speaker, as part of the leadership of Secondly, during our difficult last six the Community, to reach out to other months, some of us got to know that our leaders of the Community to enable a Secretary-General, Ambassador Juma minimum representation to show the Mwapachu lost a mother. I want to take East Africaness at funerals as well as at this opportunity, in my maiden speech, occasions of this nature. We cannot talk to relay my condolence message to his about the East African Community and family and to himself. Although he is not integration and yet when the wananchi with us, but as a member of the House, I are in trouble we are absent: we are in thought it was important for me to pass Arusha; we are in workshops; we are on on this condolence message. radio programmes; we are in Parliament; we are in the Summit, but we are absent While on the same matter, hon. Speaker, at funerals. I thought I should make that I hope that occasions of this nature will passionate appeal to the administrators not be left to the whims of individuals to and the people who manage the welfare decide. In the last Assembly we had a of the Community. very difficult time to reach our colleagues who had lost relatives, or to Mr Speaker, I would also like to take an reach relatives of those who had passed early opportunity to congratulate Dr away. We lost two members of the Rotich, the newly appointed Secretary- Assembly: we lost a minister and a General of the East African Community. colleague, and we had to find our ways I want to welcome him to the family of for the funerals. We had to buy our own the East African Community and wish tickets and we had to travel across the him all the best during his term of office borders to attend these funerals...we also at the East African Community lost a member of staff in the Court...So, I Secretariat. In the same vein, hon. hope that there will be some minimal Speaker, before I congratulate you, I administrative arrangement to enable a would like to congratulate our other representation of those who are in the colleagues who constitute the Second service of the Community to attend East African Parliament for having won funerals and occasions of this nature elections in their respective countries to when we lose one of our own, because it represent the rest of the East Africans in is very expensive. The Community has the Assembly. grown and we are now going to Rwanda and Burundi, so we cannot claim to be And as I conclude my congratulatory propagating an East African integration messages, Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate you upon being elected the

47 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Speaker of the Second East African First Assembly: He was not a Legislative Assembly to serve your five chairperson of any committee, he was years. I also want to thank the not even a country chairperson, but he honourable Members of the Assembly was at the centre of all activities. Hon. because it is very difficult to elect Nangale will bear me witness, because somebody one has not worked with for a he says that hon. Abdi was a co- long time. It takes a lot of confidence chairperson for the Committee on and trust, and I would like to thank you Investment. Hon. Abdi would look for and thank the members from the Kenyan funding and fill in the funding gaps for chapter for fielding only one candidate. every committee, even for my own It was easy for us to rally behind and committee where he was not even a beside hon. Abdi as Speaker, because member. I ran three workshops in Kenya you could have chosen to be the nine of as the Chairperson of the Committee on you: the nine of you pick forms, come Agriculture and Natural Resources, and before us, campaign and whoever gets hon. Abdi was able to always get me the majority vote becomes our Speaker. accommodation for members for the first night or the last night, and free Although democracy is good for all of us conference rooms, so we were able to do and elections are a way of democracy, our work as a committee. So I am happy the results normally cause a lot of that our colleagues from Kenya have divisions and the healing process takes chosen hon. Abdi because I think we are long. So I would like to salute the supporting someone who is hard Kenyan chapter for making it easy for all working and who will help us to move as of us to rally around and besides one a legislative assembly. person for a leader for the next five years. I am sure that we are a much The second reason I supported - and happier and a more solid team now than many of us did support - Abdi, was if it had been the other arrangement like because he has a very high sense of I have explained of the nine of you humour. When we began the First coming up and us having to elect from Assembly, there was a lot of tension among the nine. So I would like to thank because of the conditions you have heard you very much for taking us through a of: we did not have any offices, but we neat and clean process of electing a had to do a lot of work. We would sit in Speaker. the Speaker’s guest room...it is not even a boardroom for members, but we had to I would like to take a second and talk serve East Africans. So, during the about the pride of having someone that I course of a lot of work, we had tensions, served with in the First Assembly as the and sometimes we would raise our Speaker. When I found out that hon. voices. Now, in the middle of that, hon. Abdi was standing for Speaker, I told Abdi would step out into the corridors him that when he won the election, I and send a joke on all our phones then would say out the things that made me everybody would check their messages support him, so that if later power and start laughing, and that would ease entered his head I would be exonerated, the tension in many of our meetings. So because I thought he was a hardworking we thought that if hon. Abdi would be person. Abdi worked very hard in the our Speaker in the Second Assembly, he

48 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates would help us ease tensions during the I have said many things about people difficult times. who take new offices and when they get into the offices they develop difficult I have said one or two things about the issues and people come to me and say, virtues that hon. Abdi has and that a “Would you say the same thing you said leader must have. Hon. Abdi was not in about so and so on the Floor of the leadership of the East African House?” and I say, “Yes, because as Legislative Assembly but he was at the human beings we must open our hearts centre of everything that happened in and support everybody. When they Arusha. All of us liked him: we went to change, we get exonerated, but we him for support, and he was fast and tall would have done our bit as human in everything he did. We really liked beings”. So, hon. Abdi, I wish you all him, and he brought us together as the best as our Speaker, and may God Members of the First East African bless you. Legislative Assembly. As such, I would like to wish him a successful term of I would now like to turn to the issues of office as our Speaker and request him to the budget. I have been honoured, in this remain what he was in the First Assembly, to chair the committee that Assembly because what normally will be dealing with matters of the happens is that when people get into budget. That is why the whole of leadership, sometimes they change. yesterday and this morning I have been However, I do not expect hon. Abdi to listening carefully to issues and matters change. of concern that members have been raising. By way of contributing to Normally I would not say much about matters of the budget, I want to make an people who take up new offices although appeal to honourable Members and to they deserve to be told the good about the honourable minister to support our them, but speaking on this very Floor of committee when we want to revive and the House, a very respectable minister introduce the East African Community said, when a respectable citizen of our Budget Bill. I served in the First country died, that when we are in Assembly, and I was on this committee leadership, we should do good things so for five years. Since I have a that when we die people do not have to background, among others, of budget, I go to the Hansard or to other documents have an interest in budget issues. to look for something about us so that they can say good things in paying As Members of the Assembly, we tribute to us. For our Speaker, where he developed a draft East African comes from, as soon as somebody dies Community Budget Bill. We brought it they rush to bury that person, so you to the House and it was taken by the may never get the chance to say good Council of Ministers. I do not want to things about the Speaker. Therefore we say they sat on it; I want to say that they need to support him while he is still alive are still consulting on it. I hope that at an and serving us so that his term of office appropriate time they can bring that is filled with joy and a lot of support. Budget Bill to this Assembly so that we do not just lament about figures in the documents and policy issues; and so that

49 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates there is a law that helps the honourable language and addressing the same issues, Members of this Assembly to legislate in and the only difference was in how they their own right on matters of budget. were each enriching the debate. The What we are doing today is that we are mandate and activities of the different only pleading; there is no enabling organs of the Community over time is legislation that gives us a right, as a something the Council of Ministers legislative Assembly, to make a cannot run away from. The Treaty is contribution or even change anything in clear but the practice is different. the budget. We are on the whims of the Council of Ministers. You may want to The reasons are clear: Arusha began kneel, you may want to say very nice putting organs in place at different times. words on a microphone, but if the Although the Treaty is clear, the Minister is not willing...he has to be Secretariat was the first organ in the willing to change anything. So I would Community. While they existed, they like to plead with the honourable were able to play all the roles linking to Members and the Council that we should the Partner States. Five years or ten have an enabling law, the East African years later, the Legislative Assembly is Community Budget Act that will give us in place and the Court is in place, but the space as a legislative Assembly to make Sectoral Committees still exist and the a contribution to the budget. Secretariat is even stronger than before. So we want to request that now that we As we speak now, the budget as you all have the Council of Ministers present know is the mandate of the Executive. with us full time, it should sit down and So you cannot do much; you are in the revisit the actual practice in the legislature. We can only support, make Community in terms of mandates and requests, plead, those of you who can activities. Otherwise, if you read the quarrel, can quarrel, those of you who budget and if you read the minister’s can shout can shout, but there is no speech - I was looking at the minister’s enabling law to give you space and the speech, and from page 1 up to page 23, right to change anything. So when we he talks about the major sectoral thrust constitute ourselves into the Committee of what has been happening in what they on General Purpose and negotiate with call the “Community”. the Council, we would like to have in place this Bill, and then we can speak at Then on page 23 in paragraph 34 he a certain level such that everybody will talks about organs and institutions of the be able to appreciate the needs of the rest Community, and that is where the of the organs of the Community. Assembly has been lumped with the Court and all the other organs. So I was The other issue I wanted to raise also wondering, in the first 24 pages, who relates to the Council of Ministers - the was he talking about? Which organ is in Chairman is just here listening to all of the first 24 pages of the speech if the us: this streamlining of the mandate and Assembly and other organs are in only activities of the different organs of the two or three paragraphs, and the actual Community. I listened carefully to Dr budget summary is in the last paragraph Masha, hon. Mulengani and Dr of the statement? Masaburi. They were speaking the same

50 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

This tells you about the mindset on what is not enough to just run the advert it in is transpiring in the Community, it also The New Vision! We must tag our says a lot about the things that have not outreach programmes to tangible actually changed in the practice, and that benefits of why a student should is why you hear members talking about participate in an essay competition; space, about being involved and all these leaving it in the newspapers is hanging. other things. So we hope that now that But, people do not see those we have ministers, they will take off relationships. Because it is a Secretariat time and involve the different organs to activity, a member of the Assembly participate in the different work of the cannot participate in it; you are not Community. Otherwise, honourable supposed to be there. Why? members, you are lucky that you have had minister to listen to you, because in This essay competition is going to take the First Assembly we used to talk to part in Uganda and I come from Uganda. ourselves. I think we have mileage since Why would a Member of the East we now have ministers. All we need to African Legislative Assembly not go do as a legislative Assembly is to sit around to popularise an essay down and put down the priorities of the competition that has been advertised in Assembly, the priorities of the Court and the newspapers and we raise awareness insist that these priorities be funded using that angle of an activity, so that all within the budget of the Community. Ugandan children can compete? That is Nobody is going to speak for us! one example that I have given to anybody who thinks we should not have The way the Community is now is such outreach activities and that we cannot that each organ must present its issues to package them properly. We can do that the Council. That is how I look at things, and there are many more. We will be and that is how I think we are going to going to the East next week and move. Otherwise, everybody is now Members will be seeing the wealth of struggling to see how much he or she the things our people want us to go can pick from the basket. This is the around and talk about the East African nature of budgeting. You cannot sit back Community issues. and wait to be told what you can get. You must present what you want to do. Finally, Mr Speaker, for anybody to debate this budget substantively, the Before the Assembly opened, the following documents should have been minister was asking me what we were the minimum each one of us should have going to do in outreach. I want to give read. So you can guess how many days just one quick example; the East African you would have needed to be able to Community Essay Competition. This contribute properly to this budget. week I have seen the advert in the Number one, each one of us should have newspapers. I have a responsibility as a read the reports of the Council of Member of the East African Legislative Ministers and the Summit meetings held Assembly to go around Uganda and talk in November 2006. Those were to secondary school children about the mandatory, and you should definitely beauty of participating in this have read them. The other documents competition. That is part of outreach! It you should have read are the reports of

51 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates the Fifth Extraordinary Meeting of the and listened. Then one put up a hand and Council and the one of the Summit - the asked, “Where are you going to build one of this week. The other documents this market?” You see, among the you should have read to be useful in this wananchi, a market is a built structure budget are the budget documents for with maybe stalls for people to sell 2006/2007 Budget, including the MTEF things, or the other aspect of a market is documents, and also the current maybe a one-day place where people sell estimates and budget framework. The things. But the common market that we other document that could be useful to talk about in the Community has to be all members is the East African explained in the right language so that Community Development Strategy of people understand the market of the 90 2001-2005 and that of 2006-2010, or 120 million people that we are now because it is these development talking about. We need to change our strategies that will help us explain the language so that it is relevant and brings monies and the activities. Of course the out the technical documents in Arusha other document that we need is the and is meaningful to the people. Treaty for the Establishment of the East African Community. This is an average Another example I want to give is about of 10 documents. Now, for a Member of a presentation I made in the Media Parliament who does not have an office Summit about the organs of the or even a computer or a cabinet, how do Community. I was saying some organs you contribute to this type of budget work, others do not work, and others are debate without even reading the behind because they began late. People minimum documents I have been able to were passing notes and fidgeting - share with you here? “Hawo watu wa Arusha wakonaluga kwa kweli; Sasa “organ”; organ ndio I have read the audit report and there are nini?” So, the other thing that we need issues there, and I just want to plead, as I to do is either to define them as conclude, Mr Speaker, that the institutions or language. However, the honourable minister should give us time language we use in the Community to summarise the issues of this budget, sometimes has different meanings to the and that there should be flexibility for us people we are serving. I thank you, Mr to do reallocations in the budget so that Speaker. I have taken some time but I each one of us has space and a hope that I have made my contribution – contribution to make in the next (Applause). financial year, not to mention the media. Mr Daniel Wandera Ogalo (Uganda): I do not know about the re-branding, but Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me I want to talk about the media. We need this opportunity to contribute to the to use language that is useful and motion for the House to resolve itself relevant to the Community. We had an into a Committee of Supply to consider opportunity to go to the borders of the minister’s statement. In making my Mombasa and Tanzania and when we contribution, I am mindful of the fact were addressing the wananchi about the that the present Chairman of the Council Common Market, “Soko la pamoja” in of Ministers has just taken office, so my Kiswahili, the wananchi looked at us contribution is in relation to the

52 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates institution of the Council of Ministers as many things we promised the people of it is. East Africa, like construction of roads and provision of energy. There is a Mr Speaker and honourable members, matrix in that strategic plan...so many the budget as I understand it is simply things we promised the people of East trying to answer what the Community Africa. We failed them; it was a disaster. has set for itself in the Strategic Plan of It was a disaster because we did not 2006-2010. There are certain things, revisit the process of the budget in order which we have said in that plan and the to make provisions for what we had Executive has committed itself to those promised. At the end of the day, is this targets, and this year we hope to achieve really the Minister’s budget? those targets. So in looking at this budget, there must be a relationship I know that under the Treaty the power between what the Minister said to us in to determine the budget is vested in the his statement yesterday and what Council and in the Assembly, but do we provisions he is making to achieve those do that? Is it not a fact that the budget is targets. Unfortunately, I find a lot of determined by technocrats from the disconnect between the Minister’s Partner States who come to Arusha and speech and the set targets for East Africa decide that “this is what we are going to over the next four years. If we proceed provide?” Is it not a fact that at the end with the budget the way it is, I do not of the day the Council of Ministers will think that we will be able to achieve have little to change because the ceilings those targets. So, much of what I am are set by the Partner States and the going to say is going to be more of an Council of Ministers have no authority appeal on how we should try to move to try and go beyond that; that they can towards achieving the targets we only plead? Therefore, in my humble ourselves have set and the targets the view, the budgetary process must be presidents of the Community have set. changed to reflect what the budget And at the end of the day, the question process should be. will be, “What is the legacy, what are the achievements of the Council, the We must move away from equal Assembly and the Court to the people of contributions as a method of raising East Africa?” That is why I agree with revenue. Revenue should be raised the statement by Mheshimiwa Akhaabi, through taxation or through other means that in this we must complement each other than equal contribution. If you other - the Executive, the Legislature look at this year’s budget, what is each and the Judiciary - in order to achieve country giving? Only US$4 million; the targets we have told the people of what is that in Ugandan money? About 6 East Africa we are going to achieve. billion Shillings! The Minister cannot even make a road from here to Jinja with One of the fundamental problems and that money! So how do you expect this the reasons why we will not be able to Assembly and the Council of Ministers achieve these targets is because of the to deliver what has been promised? I budgetary process. There is need to would therefore propose - and the revisit the budgetary process. There was makers of the strategic plan saw it, a strategic plan for 2001–2005 with very unfortunately the Minister did not

53 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates comment on it in his speech – that we $1.5 million in our pockets, find us land must find alternative funding for the so that we can build our headquarters Community. In fact the strategic plan of and look after these 150,000 students”, 2006-2010 specifically says that we like those in the gallery – (Applause). So should place a percentage on the I am sure that as we speak now, the customs revenue of each country. They students in the gallery are looking at the propose 1.5 percent, and using the Minister and they are sure that the figures of 2004 they come up with a Minister is going to provide land – budget of US $22 million. In order to do (Laughter). Uganda has been known to so then, it will now be in the power of be very generous with land to investors the Assembly and the Council of and so on. If you can give land to Ministers to raise the money, not to someone to build a hotel, how much depend on contributions from Partner more should you give to these 150,000 States – (Applause). children of ours? I would appeal to the Minister to move fast to get land so that I would therefore request the Minister to the council can build its headquarters. take up this matter, which has been on for a long time and which the strategic The other aspect of the council is plan emphasises, that we must have research. The future for East Africa lies other methods of funding the primarily in research. Foreign Community. Other parliaments have the investment is secondary, in my humble power to raise revenue through taxation, view. It is research on how we are going that is where the real power of the to deal with agriculture, research in budget is, but we cannot raise taxes! technology, research on what kind of When the other parliaments are passing a houses can be afforded by the people of Finance Bill into an Act, they are East Africa, and research into which is authorising government to raise revenue, the way forward for East Africa. And we but we do not, and that is where the were given an example by the Inter- problem is. So, Mr Speaker, sir, I would University Council. They said that if appeal to the Minister to revisit the there was authority to tax at least US budgetary process and make it a process $100 for every student just once, for that is realistic. Without that, it will not 150,000 students that will be US $15 be possible to meet the targets that we million that the council would be able to have set ourselves. We will end up with raise which it would be able to push into what happened in the strategic plan of research. Mr Speaker, sir, that authority 2001-2005. can be given by the Council of Ministers as this is an institution under the The second point I wish to raise, Mr Community. Speaker, while students are still in the gallery, is about the Inter-University This is sufficient money to go into Council for East Africa. This Assembly research and transform East Africa. I has visited that council and the council repeat I believe foreign investment is has informed us that there are 150,000 secondary to technology and research students in universities in East Africa, because, even if you have, for example, and they have pleaded with us and said, foreign investments and you get the “Please, you politicians, we have got US money and end up building a house

54 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates worth US $20,000 for an ordinary negotiate as a bloc. They said that in person, how many people will afford matters of world trade with WTO, EU that house? On the other hand, if there is and the ACP countries, henceforth East research on the materials that we have Africa should go as one body. That was here and an ordinary person is able to in April 2002. Almost two years later, build a house using US $1,000 that is a the Council of Ministers had taken no way forward! I appeal to the Council of step whatsoever to do anything about Ministers to look into the possibility of that directive of the Summit. The First authorising the Inter-University Council East African Legislative Assembly in its for East Africa to raise money to be able own wisdom thought that a directive to fund research. from the Summit was an important thing, so they drafted a Private Mr Speaker, sir, the third point that I Members’ Bill, which they called the wish to talk about is one that was raised East African Joint Trade Negotiations in the speech of the Minister. He stated Bill, to implement the decision of the on page 7 that, “On the whole, relations Summit. Mr Speaker, that Bill was given with the development partners were a first reading and it was referred to the elevated to their highest level and the Committee on Trade. East African Community Partner States sustained the efforts to negotiate as a You will recall, Mr Speaker - because bloc in the international fora.” On page you were a member of that committee - 28, the Minister states, “Activities are which the Members who sponsored that also anticipated under the Trade Bill came before your committee and Directorate, notably the co-ordination of your committee thought that more work international trade, development of needed to be done on the Bill. As a mechanism for promotion of intra- result, the committee requested for funds regional trade…” to improve the Bill to implement the decision of the Summit. The Assembly As I have said, I am in cognisance of the was told that there was no money for fact that the Minister is new in this office that. As a result, Mr Speaker, you will and that there are certain things that took recall that you personally went from one place in the past that may not strictly be non-governmental organisation to reflected in what we are reading here. another, begging for money to Mr Speaker, in relation to negotiating as implement the decision of the Summit. a bloc in international fora, which you Eventually, you were able to get funding have referred to here, there is a from Frederick Ebert Foundation, which background; allow me to give this not only sponsored the committee but background. even hired consultants to come up and assist the committee in matters of In April 2002, President Yoweri international trade, among others. Museveni, President Benjamin Mkapa and the then President of Kenya, Daniel Thereafter, the committee redid the Bill, Arap Moi sat here in Kampala and it was even reprinted, and it was at a issued a directive to the Council of stage when hon. George Nangale, the Ministers that they should forthwith put then chairman of the committee, was at in place mechanisms for East Africa to the Second Reading that the Council of

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Ministers stepped in and put a stop to it. Minister has covered this in his speech That necessitated three Members of the when he says, “The ongoing Assembly, hon. Calist Mwatela, hon. implementation of the new Isaac Sepetu and hon. Wanyoto, to go to Organisational Structure and Terms and the East African Court of Justice to find Conditions of Service of the out whether the Council of Ministers Community…” I fully agree with the could just come and remove things from Minister that without a loyal, efficient the Assembly and kill them. The East and hardworking civil service, it is not African Court of Justice said that that possible for us to deliver to the people of was not proper but illegal, and that the East Africa what we promised them. I Bill was still properly before the House. therefore welcome the implementation of the new terms and conditions of My appeal to you, Mr Minister, is to service for our civil servants as revive this Bill - (Applause). Whether it determined by the Council of Ministers. comes from private members or from the It was time that our civil service terms Council of Ministers really does not and conditions were revised. However, matter. What matters is that we do my concern is in two areas. something which will deepen the integration process. The Council of First of all, there is a need to narrow the Ministers can bring it; all of us are gap in terms of emoluments. If the gap working towards something for the between the highest paid civil servant betterment of the people of East Africa. and the lowest paid is too big, then it can It will also look very awkward when the tend not to motivate others and lead to East African Court of Justice has said less work and less output. The second that this Bill is properly before the issue is that we should strive to treat House and should be proceeded with, civil servants of the Community equally; only for us to appear to undermine the and I want to demonstrate these two decisions of the Court. It will not give points. the region a good picture in the outside world. If you look at the new emoluments, for example of the Secretary-General, he has Mr Speaker, sir, before leaving that point an annual salary of US $82,151, a I should pay tribute to the Judges of the housing allowance of US $36,000, an East African Court of Justice who made entertainment allowance of US $4,200 that landmark decision, the honourable and a spouse allowance of US $1,200. Members of the Assembly who went to So annually you are looking at a that Court and the advocates who Secretary-General’s emoluments being handled the case for free, who included US $123,551. For the Deputy Secretary- some members of the Assembly, notably General, it goes lower to US $ 106,473 hon. Medi Kaggwa, hon. Sarah annually. Now when you come to the Bagalaaliwo, hon. Mabele Marando and Director in the Civil Service, there is a hon. Jared Kangwana. big fall. The director’s annual salary is US $52,298, housing allowance US The third matter that I want to comment $16,800 and spouse allowance US on is the question of the organisational $1,200, giving a director a total of US structure of the Community. The $70,298 annually. That falls further for

56 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates officers at principal level who get US Still continuing on the question of the $60,000 a year, then senior officer level organisational structure, you will find who get US $56,000 a year. The general that the East African Legislative staff fall to US $22,000 a year. The Assembly, the Court, the Secretariat are secretaries and cashiers come to US all organs of the Community. They are $15,000; receptionists, telephone all at par as organs of the Community operators, US $10,000; drivers, US yet when you look at the administration $4,000 and the rest US $3,000 a year. So and how they carry out their activities, if you look at the difference between US the East African Legislative Assembly is $3,000 for the lowest and US $123,000 not autonomous, the Court is not for the highest, it appears too wide. So I autonomous but the Secretariat, the civil appeal to the Chairman, Council of service, is autonomous. These are Ministers, that it is necessary in future to distinct arms of government - try and lessen the gap between these. Parliament, Court and the Executive - but when you come to granting power, The second point on treating staff you put the other arms under you! unequally can be seen in the emoluments, for example, of the During the last Assembly the honourable Director General of Customs. He has a Members pleaded for a long a time, and salary of US $72,000 and housing I plead with you, Mr Minister over this, allowance of US $30,000. His total is please grant the Court and East African US $110,000 per year. When you go on Legislative Assembly at least the status to the other side of the Legislature and of semi autonomy; to at least have sub- the Court, then you find a very different accountants - (Applause). If I am stuck picture. This is really what I mean by with a voucher of US $50, I will not get treating civil servants differently, paid because the Clerk has no authority. because when you go to the other side of I will have to wait until Mr Onen is the Assembly, you will find that the around - (Applause). Both the Court and highest - that is our Clerk - earns US the Assembly have got accountants. The $52,298 as his salary, housing allowance reasons which were given originally of US $16,000, transport of US $3,000. were that, “You know you do not have The Clerk gets about US $70,000 accountants so we cannot give you annually, but then the Clerk should be at autonomy to manage these accounts of the same level as the Deputy Secretary- yours.” Now we have those accountants, General – (Applause). The Clerk and the but still we see problems, Mr Minister - Registrar should be at the same level (Interruption). with the Deputy Secretary-General. So, while the Deputy Secretary-General is Ms Wanyoto: I thank you very much for getting US $100,000 the Clerk is getting giving way. I would like to give only US $70,000. Now that is not information to the honourable Member treating officers equally, because the on the Floor that, in the first Assembly Clerk is heading a whole arm; the whole we were able to see the new institution Legislative Assembly is under the Clerk; of the Lake Victoria Basin Commission the Registrar is heading the whole Court! come into place, and that institution is So these differences, I request, should be self-accounting. It is one of the addressed. institutions of the East African

57 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Community and it is based in Kisumu. September. During that time, the office But, the other organs of the Community of the Speaker is closed. If you want are not self-accounting. These are really him, you have to use your mobile phone the contradictions that we are talking to find him somewhere in Mandela or about. somewhere else and tell him, “Bwana there is this problem like this”. Mr Wandera Ogalo: I thank the Ordinarily, there must be a political head Member for the information especially of the Assembly at all times in Arusha; the bit about Kisumu – (Interruption) – somebody who will attend to the matters Mr Speaker I was just checking to see if of the Assembly. There are certain the Executive Secretary was around. things the Clerk cannot do. In national But, I am certain that the heads of these parliaments when the Members go on institutions would be the first to support recess, the Speaker is there full time; the that the Assembly and the Court should office is open. The members of staff of really be self-accounting. These are his personal staff are also there to attend small matters. Even if it was felt that the to the matters of the legislature. For us, Clerk and the Registrar should not be we close and all of us go away and we near the Deputy Secretary General, then only meet when we are returning - “Oh! at least you put them on the same level Mheshimiwa Speaker, how was the with the Director General of Customs - recess? Umekuaje?” That is not good. (Applause) – so that we can then look at the Community as a whole and say we So, I am appealing to the Minister, are one family, working together. But again, through you Mr Speaker, that the with these kinds of disparities, we are time has come to make the Speaker of not likely to have harmony and optimum the East African Legislative Assembly motivation. So I appeal to you, Mr. resident in Arusha – (Applause) - a Minister to address – (Interjection) - political head who will be able to assist through the Speaker - (Laughter). But it the Council of Ministers in matters is important to say, “Mr Minister, relating to the legislature at any time the through the Speaker”, because at the end Council of Ministers want advice from of the day, we are going to rely on the the Legislature. The Chairman of the Council of Ministers to effect these Council of Ministers need not start changes. looking for the telephone numbers of the Speaker to consult him on certain Mr Speaker, sir, honourable members, matters of legislature. It will not cost the the East African Legislative Assembly is Assembly, Mr Speaker, and that is why I the only Parliament I know of where am appealing directly to the Chairman of when it comes to recess, Members plus the Council of Ministers. their Speaker lock their offices and go away; all of them, and appear together During the last six months, from with the Speaker on the same day, and December to May, Members of the East the difference between the meetings may African Legislative Assembly did not even be from May to September. So, earn any salary. There is therefore a when we leave after the budget session saving. The salary of - (Interruption) - in May, as we are supposed to, it is yes, there is a saving! The salary of likely that we shall convene in Members was US $2,200 a month. If

58 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates you multiply that with the six months for Mr Speaker, sir, and honourable the 27 Members, in the pocket of the members, another appeal - because I am Chairman, Council of Ministers, there is just making appeals - I want to make to US $356,400. My appeal to the Minister the Council of Ministers is that there is is not to send this money on the float but necessity for political supervision in to remove some of that money. I must Arusha - (Applause). There is a political emphasise this; between December and vacuum when the Council of Ministers is May, there was no Assembly meeting. In not there and when the Assembly is not the last Assembly, we had budgeted for there. Because we only leave the civil salaries for Members of the Assembly, servants in Arusha, and I think that we and that was not used. So, the $356,400 are not being fair to them because now is there. we expect them to do political work. If they do it badly, the mistake is ours. I I have looked at the Secretary-General’s would therefore appeal that time has emoluments in respect to residence, and come for the Ministers to pack up their he is paid $36,000 annually, and for bags from their capitals and take security and domestic help, US $2,400. residence in Arusha - (Applause) - So annually, all we would need, if the because I am convinced that with honourable members would agree that political supervision, things will move the Speaker can take this one at the level faster. of the Secretary-General, which I do recommend -(Applause)- annually what I would also like to request that we move is required for our Speaker to be resident away from this amorphous arrangement in Arusha is US $38,400. It means, where we just keep on referring to the therefore, that what was saved in terms Council of Ministers. I request that the of what should have been the salaries of five ministers allocate themselves Members of the Assembly can cater for responsibilities among themselves, the residence of the Speaker for almost because the Treaty sets out all the areas ten years -(Applause). So I appeal, Mr which must be addressed by the Council Speaker, to the Council of Ministers that of Ministers: agriculture, health, energy, in July this year – in July there will be a roads and education. All those are there meeting of the Summit, and I am in the Treaty. mindful of the fact that the terms and conditions of service of Members of the I would like to hear, for example, that Assembly can only be changed by the the Chairman of the Council of Ministers Summit. So my appeal to the Council is is going to be responsible for the that since there is a Summit in July this environment, natural resources, tourism year, please put the recommendation and wildlife, free movement of persons, before the Summit to revise the terms labour and services. That is his docket, and conditions of service for the Speaker and if something goes wrong, we know to provide for residence - (Applause). I who to look for; we know whom to am looking forward to seeing the approach, we know whom to Speaker’s residence with effect from 1st recommend to, and we know whom to August. give information. Then another minister would also take up another docket. You divide up the responsibilities and the

59 Thursday, 21 June 2007 East African Legislative Assembly Debates powers, which have been vested to you profit. Housing finance banks are not by the Treaty. evenly distributed. You may find one in Tanzania, two in Kenya and only one in You would therefore not only have Uganda. So the East African collective supervision in Arusha, but Development Bank should be geared also specific departments to take care of towards providing funds to institutions in Arusha. With that supervision, I in the Partner States, which directly believe that we will push the integration address matters such as mortgage. Then, process forward. But if members are you can say that a civil servant in East going to be tourists in Arusha, and the Africa, because of the low interest rate Council of Ministers is also not there, which would be imposed by virtue of then how can we start dreaming of fast- controlling the East African tracking? Fast-tracking is essentially a Development Bank, would be able to political decision; it is a political matter. access funding, not only for housing but It is not a civil service matter! The also for many other areas. Apart from Department of Fast-Tracking in Arusha that, even many businesses have requires the Council of Ministers to give collapsed because of high interest rates. direction and guidance. The East African Development Bank should be the financial vehicle for the Mr Speaker, I would like to comment on East Africans. It should be able to just one other institution of the channel money, with some conditions, to Community, that is the East African commercial banks or housing finance Development Bank. From the speech of banks. the Minister, I notice that it is said that the bank has made profits. However, Lastly, Mr Speaker, I submit that one of those profits are only for the the biggest problems blocking the shareholders. I humbly submit that this integration process is the Treaty. The bank should be for the people of East Treaty requires review to enable the Africa; the ordinary persons in East integration process to move forward. Africa. They should be the ones to gain There are many booby traps in the from this bank. Efforts should be made Treaty, which clog the integration towards making sure that the ordinary process. Since now amendment of the persons in East Africa benefit directly Treaty has been opened by the provision from this bank. How? for an Appellate Court, I think that there has been a realisation that the Treaty Mr Speaker, in all our countries we have requires some fine-tuning. I am commercial banks, which are charging particularly disturbed with chapters 6 very high interest rates. This makes it and 7, namely the Coordination impossible for an ordinary civil servant Committee and the sectoral committees. to take on a mortgage arrangement, These are the biggest impediments to the because he or she will not be able to East African integration process and I meet the repayments. At the end of the will say why they are. day, the bank will end up selling his house. This is because there is a They are an impediment because you are monopoly of these banks in these sharing powers, which ordinarily should countries, and for them it is all about be shared between the Executive, the

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Legislature and Judiciary, between the Ministers and this Assembly, and we Council of Ministers with the shall forge forward. Mr Speaker, I thank Coordination Committee and the sectoral you – (Applause). committees. Why would any constitution of a country include how power is The Speaker: Honourable members, we shared between politicians and civil now adjourn until tomorrow morning at servants? I think both the coordination 10.00 O’clock. and sectoral committees can continue to operate but under the Council of (The Assembly rose at 4.37 p.m. and Ministers somewhere, and not under the adjourned until Friday, 22 June 2007 at Treaty. They should remain 10.00 a.m.) administrative.

What has happened is that they have imported national fears and national consciences - being too conscious - into Arusha. That is what I mean by clogging the integration process. They are reaching there with a Ugandan position, with a Kenyan position and with a Tanzanian position. And then after that they are the very people to make recommendations to the Council of Ministers. So we must move away from national to regional consciousness - (Applause) - and the Council of Ministers will determine by itself what kind of civil service it requires. It may decide that it only requires the Secretariat, and that it does not require people from Partner States. If that is so, so be it. What the Council requires is a secretariat; a civil service. So if it determines it can do with only a secretariat and that is sufficient, so be it!

The other area, lastly, Mr Speaker, is Article 132; the budget. As I indicated earlier, because of the provision in the budget on how the Community will be funded, it becomes difficult for us to revisit the budgetary process with those impediments in Article 132. If we amend and remove those impediments, the real power of the budget, the raising of revenue, will lie with the Council of

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