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DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COISTE UM CHUNTAIS PHOIBLÍ COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS Déardaoin, 19 Meán Fómhair 2019 Thursday, 19 September 2019 The Committee met at 9 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy Bobby Aylward, Deputy Alan Farrell, Deputy Peter Burke, Deputy Alan Kelly, Deputy Shane Cassells, Deputy Imelda Munster, Deputy Catherine Connolly, Deputy Catherine Murphy, Deputy David Cullinane, Deputy Kate O’Connell. DEPUTY SEAN FLEMING IN THE CHAIR. Mr. Seamus McCarthy (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined. 1 PAC Business of Committee Chairman: We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, as a permanent witness to the committee, and he is joined by Ms Orla Duane, deputy director of audit. I would like to welcome the Comptroller and Auditor General and all the members back after what I hope was a good break. I also welcome a new member of the committee, Deputy Imelda Munster. We look forward to her input while working with us. I thank Deputy Jonathan O’Brien, whom Deputy Munster is replacing, for all his work on the committee. The first item is the minutes of the meeting of 11 July 2019. Are they agreed? Agreed. We will move onto correspondence received. Because of the summer break, we have a substantial amount of correspondence in front of us. We will go through as much of it as we can but we might not get it all dealt with today. We can come back next week to deal with anything not dealt with today. There will be no voting session in the Dáil today. We will commence with Bord na gCon at 11 a.m. and we will be able to follow the timetable. Deputy David Cullinane: We have lengthy correspondence and I have a letter about the public services card, PSC. There is a hearing about it next week and I wondered whether there was a chance to have a discussion, at some point, about that meeting, particularly in the context of some of the issues that have been raised since the publication of the report. I have in mind a quick couple of minutes on the matter. Chairman: We will spend a couple of minutes on the work programme before we deal with Bord na gCon and accounts received and part of the work programme is next week’s schedule. The first items of correspondence are category A correspondence, which are briefing documents and opening statements for today’s meeting. Category B, which is Nos. 2387A and 2388A, dated 17 September, from Bord na gCon, includes the opening statement and briefing docu- ments for today’s meeting. Is it agreed that we will note and publish those? Agreed. Deputy Alan Kelly: Is this going up on the screen as on previous occasions? Chairman: Not the opening statements but the correspondence. Deputy Alan Kelly: I mean as the Chairman is going through the correspondence. Chairman: I hope to, yes. For the benefit of people watching the meeting, the layout looks a bit different. There are extra items showing the names of people closer to where----- Deputy Alan Kelly: No. I was just wondering about the screen in front of us. It is easier to see it on the screen in front of us. Chairman: We will work on that in the next couple of minutes----- Deputy Alan Kelly: No bother. Chairman: -----and we will see how we get on. No. 2389A dated 17 September 2019 from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is a briefing note for today’s meeting on the financial position of Bord na gCon in 2018. Category B is correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow up to PAC meetings, and other items for publishing. The first item under this category is No. 2301B, 2 19 SEPTEMBER 2019 held over from our meeting on 11 July 2019, from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, dated 5 July 2019, providing clarification requested by the committee on information previously provided by the Department regarding the Protected Disclosures Act 2014. Is it agreed that we will note and publish that? Agreed. No. 2318B is from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General, Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, dated 10 July 2019, responding to the committee’s recommendation in Periodic Report No. 4 for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to make arrangements for a liaison or monitoring capability in respect of property acquisitions above a certain value. This arose from two third level institutions in Cork city essentially competing for the same project and driving the price up against each other, which may have resulted in extra costs to the tax- payer. Mr. Watt’s reply acknowledges the point. He says there are potential risks in trying to influence bodies that are statutorily independent. However, he understands the Department will consult the Higher Education Authority, HEA, on this matter with a view to issuing a communi- cation to all higher education institutes in due course on potential measures that can reasonably be taken by them to minimise the risk of this occurring. The Department will update the com- mittee on developments in this matter. Deputy Alan Kelly: I originally raised this issue. It is bizarre. We have got University College Cork and Cork Institute of Technology, CIT, competing against one another and costing the taxpayer money. I understand the point being made by the Secretary General but can we also ask the Department of Education and Skills to send us a copy of the circular it will issue, according to this letter, as soon as possible? Chairman: That is agreed, but the correspondence----- Deputy Alan Kelly: Can we write to the Department of Education and Skills asking for a copy of it? Chairman: Of the----- Deputy Alan Kelly: The guidelines that will be issued. Chairman: I think he called it a communication. We will see the format of that and ask for a copy of it when it is received from the Department or the HEA. That is agreed. There is an issue that we want this dealt with across the public sector generally but the specific issue we highlighted was third level education, so we will stick to that rather than broaden it across every Department and State agency. It is something we will watch in future but we will deal with the specifics of third level education, which is where this arose. No. 2319B from Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General, Department of Health, dated 11 July 2019, is a response to matters raised at our meeting on 27 June in respect of the scoping inquiry being undertaken by Dr. Gabriel Scally and the delay in publishing the supplementary report. The July reply was addressed to Deputy Alan Kelly because he had raised the issue but it was also an issue for the Committee of Public Accounts, PAC. Is the Deputy happy for this letter to be published? Deputy Alan Kelly: I am very happy to publish it. I have had an amount of correspon- dence with the Department of Health on this matter. I am not satisfied with the responses I have received. I received further information on this issue at the health committee yesterday. The jigsaw is coming together gradually but I am happy to publish the letter. 3 PAC Chairman: We will publish it, and the Deputy is free to come back on it again. Deputy Alan Kelly: I will; the Chairman need not worry. Chairman: I do not have to suggest that to the Deputy. That is agreed. Next is No. 2320B from Mr. Fergal Lynch, Secretary General, Department of Children and Youth Affairs, dated 11 July 2019, providing a further note as requested by the committee relating to our meeting on 19 June 2019. It includes details of funding family resource centres and childcare facilities under the national childcare investment programme. We will note and publish that correspondence. It gives a breakdown of all the family resource centres by county and also details of the funding provided to each of those under the various funding categories. It con- tains quite a bit of information. We have not received one item. The first one we asked for was to do with pending claims for the Department being managed by the State Claims Agency. In the reply Mr. Lynch states: The State Claims Agency (SCA) has been requested to provide this information. The information is still being collated by the SCA and will be forwarded to the PAC [as soon as it is received]. We will ask for an update on that because this letter is more than two months old. We want the balance of that information, if it has not been received, to be forwarded to us as quickly as possible. We will note and publish that. No. 2321B from Mr. Paddy O’Keeffe, Tax Appeals Commission, dated 11 July 2019, is an update on the large cases on its files because we were concerned about very large cases. No. 2376B, also from Mr. Paddy O’Keeffe, dated 9 September 2019, gives us an update regarding tax appeals in hand. We will publish both of those. Can I see that last one on the screen? I read the earlier one for 11 July in detail. This is the most recent one and it gives a detailed list. It is good to publish them. Most of them relate to corporation tax where major disputes arise. Some individual cases are in excess of €100 million. They give a brief note, which we will publish. It is not possible to give a timeline in respect of some of them.