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1 Open Ninth: Conversations Beyond the Courtroom 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OPEN NINTH: 10 CONVERSATIONS BEYOND THE COURTROOM 11 WOMEN IN ROBES 12 EPISODE 21 13 APRIL 24, 2017 14 HOSTED BY: FREDERICK J. LAUTEN 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 1 (Music.) 2 >> Welcome to another episode of "Open Ninth: 3 Conversations Beyond the Courtroom" in the Ninth Judicial 4 Circuit Court of Florida. 5 And now here's your host, Chief Judge Frederick J. 6 Lauten. 7 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: Well, welcome to "Open Ninth." 8 I'm here today with my colleagues and good friends, Circuit 9 Judge Alice Blackwell and Orange County Judge Nancy Clark. 10 They are two of the 31 women judges who currently sit on the 11 bench in the Ninth Judicial Circuit. 12 So for our listeners, we have 65 judges in the Ninth 13 Circuit, and almost half of our bench is made up of women 14 judges. And I think we kind of -- or at least lead the state 15 in that. I don't know if we're alone. But I know that we're 16 one of the leading circuits, if not the leading circuit, in 17 terms of gender equality on the bench. 18 So first of all, welcome, both of you. I'm glad you're 19 here. 20 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: Thank you. 21 >> JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Great to be here. 22 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: And let me give our listeners 23 just a little bit of background on both of you, and then 24 we'll get into questioning. 25 So Judge Blackwell has been on the bench since 1991. 3 1 She received her law degree from the University of South 2 Carolina and her bachelor's degree from Furman. And, Judge 3 Blackwell, I guess when you took the bench, there were 38 4 judges, not 65. But five of those judges were women. 5 And Judge Clark has been on the bench since 2000, and 6 she and I worked together in the State Attorney's Office many 7 years ago, more years for me than you. And she received 8 her -- both her law degree and Bachelor's of Arts degree from 9 the University of Florida. 10 And when Judge Clark took the bench in 2000, there were 11 52 judges, so a few more than when Judge Blackwell started. 12 And then the number of women judges had grown from five to 13 11. And now we have 65 total judges, as I said, and 31 14 judges are women. So we'll talk about that growth in just a 15 moment. 16 And I could really spend the rest of the podcast telling 17 our listeners about the committee assignments and the 18 chair -- chairs that both of our judges have occupied, in all 19 kinds of judicial activities from conferences to educational 20 opportunities and the awards that they've received, including 21 Jurist of the Year and -- but I'd take up the whole broad -- 22 podcast for that. 23 But if you'll bear with me or forgive me, I'm gonna hold 24 off on that for just a bit, because I want to get into some 25 conversation with you. 4 1 So recently, I think the New York Times reported that 2 for the first time in U.S. history, about half of the -- no, 3 more than half of the law students in America are women. So 4 that they make up more than half and are now in the majority 5 of students in law school. 6 So what I'm curious about is how each of you decided on 7 a career in law, and let me start with you, Judge Blackwell, 8 and then we'll go to Judge Clark. 9 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: Well, I had an uncle who was a 10 judge, and he was my Uncle Joe, and his name was Joseph Moss, 11 and he was a judge in South Carolina. And when I went to my 12 family reunions as a child, he was the most interesting, 13 funny -- the -- just one that everybody loved to talk to. He 14 told great stories and I got to hear about the courtroom and 15 what he did. 16 And so I got intrigued with law at a very young age. So 17 when I was eight or nine years old, if you asked me -- in 18 South Carolina, I got called by two names. They'd say, Alice 19 Louise, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I said, 20 I want to be a judge. And that was because of Uncle Joe. 21 And he eventually became the chief justice of the South 22 Carolina Supreme Court. 23 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: Wow. That's -- congratulations. 24 That's very cool. 25 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: And -- it was very cool. And I 5 1 spent a lot of time, um, with him in York, South Carolina, 2 where he lived and practiced and got to see his, um -- the 3 way he lived and what he did with his life, and I thought 4 that was something I wanted to do. 5 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: Did he encourage you to consider 6 law or was it that there weren't women in law school at the 7 time, so he didn't even think in those terms? 8 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: He really didn't think in those 9 terms. I just as a kid just thought I like what he does, and 10 I'd like to do what he does. 11 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: Great. 12 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: It looks like great work and 13 interesting, and it looked compelling to me, and I thought 14 that was a great thing to do. 15 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: And so your Uncle Joe was kind 16 of the reason why you had an interest and a path towards law? 17 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: And he came -- 18 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: That's great. 19 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: -- and held the Bible for me when I 20 was sworn in as a judge here so it was just -- 21 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: That's fabulous. 22 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: -- the best. 23 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: Great. 24 Judge Clark, how about you? 25 >> JUDGE CLARK: Well, unlike Judge Blackwell, I did not 6 1 know in the eighth grade I wanted to go and be a lawyer, much 2 less a judge. Um, I started taking political science classes 3 at the University of Florida, and at that time, I wasn't 4 sure. And so I thought I wanted to go to veterinarian 5 school, so I took a couple of math classes and decided very 6 quickly that the prerequisite to doing so was probably not 7 best suited for me. 8 So I started talking to a guidance counselor and began, 9 then, looking more in -- career into law and also taking 10 those types of classes. So it took me a little while -- 11 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: Right. 12 >> JUDGE CLARK: -- but that was okay. It finally came 13 to fruition. 14 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: So in law school itself, do you 15 remember roughly the ratio of women to men in your class, 16 Judge Clark? Let me start there. 17 >> JUDGE CLARK: It definitely was not half. It was 18 probably about a third, I would say, that were -- that ratio. 19 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: How about you, Judge Blackwell? 20 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: Ten to 15 percent of the class were 21 women. We were an oddity at that point. 22 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: So -- yeah, we probably went to 23 law school around the same time, and it was a distinct 24 minority. There were women, and what I kept hearing from 25 professors when I was there is, wow, there's more women than 7 1 we've ever had, but really dominated -- dominated by men. 2 So looking back on your career practicing, did either of 3 you feel like you were breaking any glass ceilings? Were 4 there glass ceilings in the practice that you had to deal 5 with or not so much? 6 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: There were. I think -- one of the 7 reasons I chose to leave South Carolina and come to Florida 8 is because I perceived that Florida was more open and 9 available -- that leadership roles were more available to 10 women in Florida than in a more traditional, sort of -- 11 traditionally male-dominated state. 12 So it was part of what motivated me to come to Florida. 13 I came to a law firm where there had actually been a woman 14 there before, and -- 15 (Laughter.) 16 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: Okay. 17 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: -- that was really a cool thing. 18 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: Ground breaking. Okay. 19 (Laughter.) 20 >> JUDGE BLACKWELL: So, yes, were there glass ceilings? 21 Yes. But they were beginning to be broken in by many women 22 around the time that I started practicing, which was in the 23 1980s. 24 >> CHIEF JUDGE LAUTEN: And then I remember your first 25 day at work, but I still want you to talk about, did you 8 1 sense that there was -- there were glass ceilings at the 2 State Attorney's Office or -- 3 >> JUDGE CLARK: No, I didn't. And I was gonna make 4 that remark.
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