[25 SEPTaun, 1928. 87871 themselves than they had in the past. Hither- makers? 3, Is there any officer empowered to they have not known what period of time to report on wine being of a proper stand- would be allowed them, or when they would ard, and if so, has such officer power to be put off their blocks. The sooner this condemn under-standardJ wine? 4, How matter is attended to, the better, As I said many wine licenses are there in the Perth in opening, it i3Snot necessary to make long metropolitan district? 5, HOW Muany gal-L speeches on this short amending Bill. Ions of Western Australian wines are sold Question put and passed. annually through existing wine licenses? 6, How muany gallons of Eastern States' wvines Bill read a second timke. are sold annually by virtue of existing wine licenses? 7, Are there any restric- Housge adjourned at 9.53 p.m. tions uinder these licenses upon sales of Western Australian wines, as against im- ported wines, or vice versa?9 8, Do the Gov- ernment recognise that there are insuffi- cient wine licenses in central positions to eope with the requirements of the business? 9, Do the Oovernmnjt realise that Eastero States wine producers are financing licensees in this State, and insisting on preference being given to the sale of their Eastern pro- ductions? If so, does not this constitute a breach of the Commonwealth Constitui- tion Act? 10, A5 the grading of wvine licenses here is this State's prerogative, are the Government prepared to restrict the 1.cgiolattne CounciL. sales in such a way that neither this State nor the Eastern. States can obtain by this, Tuesday, 25th September, 1028. or any other means, preference in the trade in respect of wvine licenses? pinE Question: Wine Industry ...... 871 The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: 1, Motion: Food and Drugs, to disallowr regulation 872 Bills:! Education, s...... 872 Mlanyv statements have already been made Navigation Act Amiend meat, SR. .. 872 announcing the Governmient'2s policy and Forests Ael, Amendmnent 2FL 872 laduatzles Assistance Aot Cotlanance,-is. 870 frequent conferences have been held to en- Electoral Act Amendment, 2R. 870 'Whalings, 2R. .. M8 deavour to find ways and means of Fertilaers, 21...... 89 Dried Fruits Act Amendment, 2R. 891 assisting the industry. 2, Whatever re- strictions are placed on the sale of Western Australian wine are imposed by the licen- sees. 3, Yes, both uinder the Licensing Act The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.94.i and the Health Act. Liquor not comnplying p.m., and -read prayers. with the proper standard is subject to the order of the court. 4, 46. 5 and 6, We hare no information as to country of origin. QUESTION-WINE INDUSTRY. Although we have no figures as to the quank- Interstate Competition. tities of wines sold annually by mectropoli- Hon. C. F. BAXTER asked the Chief Sec- tan wine licensees, the value approximately is-Western Australian wines, £7,360; im- retary: 1, Are the Government desirous of ported wines, E.18,090. The figures also dis- fostering the local wine industry, seeing close that in the majority of cases the wine that it is an important adjunct to the opera- licensees are selling a'proportiou of We~tern tions of settlers who grow grapes mainly Australian wines. 7, No, the license is for for purposes other than wine-making '32, sale of Australian wvine. 8, This is a matter Are the Government aware that the ad- for the Licensing Magistrates- 9), Yes; but vances made to settlers on vineyards are this is not a hregeh of the Commonwealth imperilled through the refusal to grant Constitution Act. 10, The matter is now wine licenses to Western Australian wvine- being considered. [32] [COUNCIL)

MOTION-FOOD AND DRUGS. when the Forests Act of 11118 was passed To Disallow Regulation. to provide an adequate fund in order to place our forests on a sound basis. It i: Debate resumed from the 12th September realised in forestr~y circles that it is advis on the following motion by Hon. J. Nichol- able to hasten slowly regarding forest plans son (Metropolitan)-. As time passes, the demand for funds tx That Regulation No. 72 of the Food and ctarry on such a policy steadily increases Drug ]Regulations, 1929, made on the advice and in consequence a provision that is ade of rho Food Standards Advisory Committee, quate in the fl et place, becomes insufficieni published in the ''Government Gazette" of in the course of time to carry out thosu the 17th August, 1928, and laid on the Table of this House on the 4th instant, is hereby plans to maturity. A forest policy is essen, disallowed. tinlly one that miust be spread over a lent period, and for that reason, it is desirablf THE: HONORARY MINISTER Hon. that funds raised in the early part of thE W. H. Kitson-West) [4.35]: Since the p~eriod by means of forest revenue, shall bE last discussion on this motion, conferences conserved in order that later on that money have taken place between representatives may hie made available for earrying out thE of the department and other parties Conl- plan to completion. Consequently, I think cerned. I do not now propose to offer an3 the wi ~er policy' to adopt would have been, opposition to the disallowance of Regula- instead of diverting the money to Consoli- Lion No. 72. The parties have comoe to an dated -Revenue, to provide that it should be agreement, and I propose to substitute an- p~laced in a trust fund to accumulate, and to other regulation as soon as possible alter earn interest, and so provide mioney Inter on Regulatim No. 7*2 has been disallowed. to tarry out the forest plan. Had that course been adopted, the money would still Question put and passed. have been available to the Government for the carrying out of such work as loan funds BILLS (2)-THIRD READING. c-an he devoted to, and the Government would have received the benefit of the money 1. Education. in that way without taking the funds for 2. Navigation Act Amendement. revenue purposes. There is the further Transmitted to the Assembly. .rgumcnt to be advanced that we have to recognise that the large revenue received Fromn sandalwood wa,; more or less in the BmIL-FORESTS ACT AMENDMENT. natuire of a windfall1. When the 1919 Act wais passed, it was never contemplated that Second Reading. we would receive such a large suni of money Debate resumed from the 20th September. fron) the sandalwood trade. It was only when the sandalwood regulations -were put RON. H. SEDDON (North-East) [4.38]: into opera tion and the trade developed, that Regarding the Bill before us, I consider the the large revenue was available. Conse- innovation that has been introduced this year clnently that argument can be applied in merits the very, serious consideration of the this instance. We should conserve our House. During previous years, when the funds ini the intere--ts of the industry, by Bill has been considered, this House has phwn~ing the money in trust instcad of allow- rightly considered that each year its pro- ing it to go into Consolidated Revenue. I vi-nons should conic up for revision. would like to deal boriefly with the progress Hon. H. Eltewart: It is time that it of the reforestation of sandalwood, which stopped. was referred to by the Mfinister in the Hon. H. SEDDON: This year there has course of his remiarks. When the propaga- been introduced into the Bill, an amendment tion of sandalwood was first considered, it by whichi, instead of providing ;C5,000 to be was recognised by the forest officers that we set aside for the reforestation of sandal- were breaking new ground. So far as T wood, the three-fifths of the revenue derived know, no steps were previously taken any- from sandalwood are to be taken into Con- where to provide for the growth of sandal- solidated Revenue. I am inclined to think wood by artificial means. The departmental that when the Bill was lb-st introduced in officials wisely recognised that they had to 1924, the departure then made was unwise. embark upon a lot of research work, And We mnust recognise that it wai the intention results have disclosed difficulties that were [25 SEPTEmmBER, 1028.]88 873 not contemplated. Ideas that they thought the amount added to the forestry fund will at the outset would lead to success have re- be mote than equalled by the amount ex- sailted, more or less, in lack of success. Now pended. For that meason there is need for the officials. are reconsidering' their precon- caution and certainly need for maintaining ceived ideas regarding the planting of san- the principle that this House has adopted daiwood, in order to assure that there shalt of reserving to the forestry fund the grant he successful germiination. For instance, the of £5,000 to be devoted to the extension of first plantations onl the goldfields were laid sandalwood planting. Another problom has in the gullies where there was heavier soil. arisen in connection with the goldfields The opinion was held that if the. seeds were p~lant;. It has been found that not only the planted in the gullies, the amjount of mois- sandalwood but other shrub life on the gold- ture available would be gpreater than if the fields, has suffered severely from the attacks plantations had been laid out in more ex- of rabbits. ft ba% been said that there has posed positions. Unfortunately the seasons been practically no new growth of such on the goldfields for some years past have plants for the Inst 20 years, that the whole been such that anticipations were not real- of the top feed available is onl old plants, ised, and it was found that the germination and that the problem in future will be a of the seeds in. the gullies was very had in- severe one because there are no young plants deced. On the other hand, experiments made to take the place of the older ones, owing on the lig-hter clasi of country proved more to the rabbits eating off the young growth sucessful, and now thle idea is held that as soon as it comes out of the ground. That better results will bie achiieved by planting i.- a serious state of affairs. on the more open, lighter class of land than IHon. J. R. Brown: I think it is exag- in the gullies. The ques tion was, raised as gecrated. to the life of sandalwood, and the time a. lIon. H. SEDDON: I have taken the sandalwood tree takes to arrive at maturity. opinion of forestry officers and they suppori After consulting with the departmental offi- rhat view. It is a question that should bt caI find that they hold the opinion that investigated, and it should he borne ini mind the district in which the sandalwood is when we are estimnating the finance required growing has a great deal to do with the time by the Forests Department. It certainly it takes to reach maturity. For instance, it indicates the need for an extensive pro- is held that in the eontatl districts the san- grane of netting-which seems to be ou( dalwnod shrub ;houldI becomle a inmatured of the best mueans for keeping the rabbit tree in 25 years. mienace more or less tinder control-sup- Hon. J1. R, Brown: But the sandalwood plemented by fumigation and extermination grown there is not so good. It has not the Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoota: At the eui oil in it. of 100 years, would it pay for the expensE Hon. A. SEDDON: That is; so;, the oil of production? sandalwood is not so content of the coastal Honi. H. SEDD)ON: The problem will concentrated as; in that grown in the dry arise in another 30 or 40 years; when th( areas. Tt is held that in thle wheat districts present top feed bhas been exhausted, it takes 40 years, for sandalwood to come to ant there is no young stuff to take its place maturity-, while on the goldfields it is esti- That will be a serious problem for the pas. mated that 100 years, is not too lonug in which toralist, and it should be considered by to expect. the tree to attain maturity. From the Forests Department. the standpoint of the rezrowth of ;andal- wood it will he readily' recoenised that once Hon. Sir Edward Wittenooni: I was re- the question of striking, the shrubs has been ferring to sandalwood. solved, it will be necessary to undertake Eon, H. SEDDON: Sandalwood is natur. planting on a very large scale. There is ally a parasite plant, and its existence L, also the question of the ratio between the controlled by the fact that the hosts or expenditure and the revenlue of the forestry which it lives are being exterminated. Con. fund to be considered . Accor ding to the sequently any probability of sandalwood suir. report, last year £861129 was added to the viving will be out of the question becausc foreitry fund while an amount of £72,645 sandalwood can live only as a parasite or was expended. We have not before us the the host plants. and those host plants an( report for the presenT year, but T under- beingv exterminated by the depredations oJ stand that from the cxperiencce of the past rabbits. T understand from the remarks ol we arc rapidly appraaching the time when the Minister that 3102,000 acres have beer [COUNCIL.]

to, and that three-fifths of the nest revenue for sandalwood reserved on thle goldfields derived from forestry, whether from sandal- evidence placed before purposes. From the wood or anything else, be made available there is urgent need us by the department for the development of forestry within the of netting those for an extensive programme State. 1 have every reason to believe that the younger reserves, and of protecting such a policy would pay. There is the of rabbits. growth from the depredations question of unemployment that has to move an vexed It is my intention, in Committee, been tackled in various places, but here it that the conditions amendmient to provide has been, tackled only in theory. What has under the 1924 and 1927 Acts arranged for been done to deal with the increased number stun of be continued, and that a further of pople out of wvork in the various sandalwood fund in £;5,000 beaadded to the States during the winter period? In be continued. order that the programme may Victoria thle country rond boards have re- the second With that reservation , I support lieved the situation definitely by adopting a readling of the Bill. policy of road constructionl, establishilng: camps and maoking sp)ecial arrangements for (South-East) [4.50]: HON. ff. STEWART the employment of additional labour onl road Part Of I am opposed to this effort oil tile work during the winter season. The Migra- under the Forests the Government to obtain tion and Developnient Commission has re- for general pur-poses, andi Act more revenue ported onl the problem, but what has it done accord with the view ex- 1 am heartily in beyond appealing to all sections of the action to main- pressed b'y Mr. Seddon. His exhibit a comimunity spirit and Act people to tain, the position under the amending do what they can?9 New Zealand has gone That of 1924 will receive my,- support. in extensively, not for experimiental plant- at my alteration in the forest Policy, made ing, but for the planting of softwoods on con- instance in the first place, has been the basis of 1,000-nce plots per year. This tinued from year to year, and the proposal wvork provides seasonal employment after was to make it permanent. ';ome of. us took the agricultural work has been finished. It exception to its being ma'de p)ermnlent, and would provide work in this State wvhen un- it has been renewved froml year to year. employment was at its worst, wvhen clearing Hon. G, W. Miles; WhI -Y shot"(d it be was no longer available, when seediiig had renewved from year to yenr? Why not make.o been finished and when there was a surplus it definitely available for forestry purpossS? of labour offering.- This money would be Hon. H. STEWAIT: T sinai' deal with, available arid, wvit[hout imposing any drain any appeal that question. T have it onl the authority on the community or requiring to of delegates to the Emnpire Forestry' Con- to mull icipali ities antd Private employers ferenice, which started its sessions in this relieve the position, could be utilised to em- at planting out seedlinks in the ,State and is now sittinig in the Eastern ploy men That; would be definitely useful States, that the experiments of planting p)lantationls. work that in tlhe end could not fail to be Koftwvoods in Western Australia have been profitable. New Zealand has followed this so satisfactory that there is no reaszon why policy over a period of years onl the recoin- should not be greatly extended. the work mnendation of its former Conservator of that the supplies of forest It is well known, Forests, and the authorities there are per- buildingc and prod nets, not on!ly timlber for fectly satisfied with the results. It took hut also mnaterial for the other punposes sonic time to convince the Minister that the pulp industry, will be greatly in demanId ill policy should hie inaugurated, but after a1 givecs caus future. The forestry Position short space of timie it was necessary to hold alarm1. in New Zealand for considerable the _Minister back, because lie desired to go has been carried out with mnuch afforestation in extensively for the work. Thus employ- having lbeen shown satisfactory results. ft nient is provided luring the period when in this State that the planting of softWoods there is a shiortagec of work. Different rates results, it is gives promise, of successful are paid to single men :ad married mi, the the revenue avail- emlinently desirable that single men, receiving 9sa. and the married be utilised to able to tine department should men 12s. per day. Some niembers may take like to go proceed with the work. T should exception to my mentioning those figures. suggested. I further than 'Mr. Seddon higas The actual amounts have nothing to do with shouild like at this stage to issue a warning mly contention. If we call afford to Pay wishes to the Government that this House more, it is a matter for arrangement. I to see the status quoe prior to 1924 reverted 125 SEPTmnER, 1928.]87 875 merely quote the figures to illustrate the gard to the one-year period. We see k-day point. the value of having done that because when The Honorary Minister: It has not over- one reads the report famished by the Con- come the problem of unemployment in Yew servator of Forests-which I have no doubt Zealand. is in the hands of hon. members, a report Hon. H. STEWART: But it must have that was prepared for the British Empire Forestry relieved the difficulty considerably1 as a Conference-and in which we find number of men have been absorbed in the references made to sandalwood. I might he work. I fail to see that the Minister's inter- permitted to quote this paragraph- jection carries much weight. If the pro- There are two, true sandalwoods found in vision of such work here had the effect of Western Australia. In the North, santalumn reducing the number of unemployed, surely lanceolatum grows as a scattered tree in small it would be of benefit to the State. I am quantities over a very wide habitat. Its use has been restricted by regulation for oil dis- given to understand that if plans were tillation purposes within the State only. The formulated, plantations of 1,000 acres in oil baa been used for blending with that of area could be laid down. The pinus, pinaster the southern sandalwood in order to bring the has proved itself eminently suitable for optical rotation of the blended oil to British coastal sands, and the pinus insignia, and pharmacopoeia standard, The difficulty which has been experienced in secu ring a few hun- other varieties are suitable on inland areas. dred tens annually is an indlication of the A high authority has informed me that the comparative scarcity of the species in country growth of the pines in the Mundaring area accessible to the coast. has been simply 'wonderful, and it can be I am informed that that particular anticipated if plantations of that kind were type of sandalwood is of great value indeed, established that revenue would be derived and it is a means of giving from them within 16 years and they would employment to people in our State. be profitable within 20 years. When we re- view the position, we must realise that the Hon. J. ft. Brown:- Where does it grow? establishment of such plantations would Hon. J. NICHOLSON: In the North, build up a capital interest of increasing Hon. J. R. Brown: The North Poleo? v-nine, while the clearing of and caring for Hon. J. NICHOLSON: I do not believe those areas would provide work for the un- our jurisdiction as yet extends to 'the Nort employed. In the circumstances I hope that Pole. Probably Mr. Brown will find an instead of this money going into Consoli- opportunity later on to appeal to the Com- dated Revenue, efforts will be made during monwealth Government to see that the Corn- the ensuing year largely to increase the mioiwenlth flag is established there. planting, thus providing employment at a lion. J. ft. Brown: On a sandalwood time when other industries cannot absorb heap. surplus labour and building up a valuable Hon. J. NICHOLSON: At present our asset for the State. utmiost, limit north should be known to the lion. HON. 3. NICHOLSON (Metropolitan) member beenause we do not go beyond [5.03:- The two speakers who have preceded the confines of Australia. There is another me have expressed a view which I feel sure clause in the report which reads- will appeal to many members of this House, The principal sandalwood (santaluin epic- and what they have said serves to emphasise atamn) whiich has provided a valuable export commodity reserves for very many years, is found the importance and value of making through the southern portion of the State, such as we have wisely created under the from the 25-iaeh rsainfall belt within 60 miles amending Act of 1924, and under which a of Perth to the 8-inch rainfall region of the certain portion of the revenue derived from dry interior. There is some confusion among sandalwood shall be set aside for the pur- botanists as to its proper classification, but evidence in favour regeneration in connection with that of its acceptance as a true pose of santalumi, with the specific name of S. epic- timber. The Bill will have the effect of atum, is accumulating. practically wiping out that and placing the whole amount to the credit of Consolidated The report goes on to point out that whilst; ]Revenue. in earlier years some of the trees were found The Honorary Minister : For one year to reach a height oC 25 ft. with a diameter of only. 18 inches, these Tir no0 longer obtainable. Hon. J. NICHOLSON: It is -wise indeed Hon. 3. Rt. Brown: They weighed a ton a that we did make the stipulation with re- stick. 876 [GOUNOIL]1

Hon. J. NICHOLSON: That would actly in the form in which we had it on pre- wholly depend upon the size of the tree. It vious occasions. Certain clauses have been is also pointed out that the tree is becoming deleted, chiefly those to which members of more difficult to obtain and wve are aware this House took eception in 1927. Clause. of that by reason of the long distance many were previously inserted, as is done when a of the sandalwood pullers have to travel to matter is taken to the Arbitration Court in find supplies to 'mable them to get a decent connection with t claim that is lodged, and return for their labour. If we can (10 any- when many thing,. are asked for that it is thing to advance either the regeneration or known will not be granted. Thus, when a cultivation of thi.s very important and valu- tight coruner is reached, one can afford to able tree, then ev.ery effort possible should give away something that does not matter. be made in that dhiection. So that that may In the Bill before us, most of the objection- be done effectively, money is required, and able things have been eliminated, and it will I contend that nmore money will be needed not be possihle now for the Government to in the future as the areas available at the give away much more. Formerly it was present time are cut over. The difficulty in proposed to give extensive powers to the maintaining our supplies and maintaining Minister. These powers it is now proposed the market we have establshed over a long to give to the Chief Electoral Officer. Such number of years will be affected if we can- po"wers as the enrolment of boundary riders not continue to supply this particular and others who would not have to comply article. As Mr. Stewvart has pointed out, wvith the Act have been. deleted, whilst trouble arises at certain seasons of the year persons dependent on relief from the Staic in connection with unemployment. Much and those subject to be sentenced and could be done to overcome that difficulty by as wvell as those who are recipients of (livertinig the money obtained from sandal- State charity, are not referred to in the wood instead of taking it into Consolidated Bill before us. The very basis of our Revenue. When presenting the Bill, the political existence is that we shall have Chief Secretary expressed the belief, shared clean rolls, and it behoves every member of by his colleagues, that much more has been the legislature to look closely into the Ekec- received from this aource by way of revenue oral Act. I am surprised to find that so fewv than was ever anticipated, but that does not members have given this subject attention lessen the need for greater effort being made with a view of safeguarding their interests to prevent the loss of an industry that has as regards enrolment. The greater number been of such great value to the State. I of the amendments proposed in the Bill are hope the Minister will see his way to restore not applicable to the members of the Legis- the clause as suggested by Mr. Seddon. Sub- lative Council. As the Chief Secretary has ject to that, I shall support the second read- said, this is a non-party measure. I rather ing of the Hill. severely criticised the Bill that was before On motion by1 lion. J1. Ewing, debate ad- us on the previous occasion, big any criti- journed. cism I may have to offer at the present time will not be alongl similar lines. I am in perfect accord with thc principle of one BILL-IMDUSTRIES ASSISTANCE ACT roll, if it is practicable. When the Bill CONTINUANCE. was before us last, I went to some pains to show that with the boundaries as Reeeived from the Assembly and read a at present existing between the Federal and first time. State Departments, it would be impractio. able to put a joint roll into operation. It was realised also that it would not be prac- ACT AMENDMENT. EILL-ELETORA.L ticable when the Chief Secretary made his Second Reading. speech in reply. Then, when the Pill wvent Debate resumed from the 20th September. into Committee, hon. member-s will recollect what took place. It was then emphasised HON. E. H. HARRIS (North-East) that it was impracticable to put the pro- [5.10] :For the third time an Electoral posals into operation. Certainly the pro- Act Amendment Bill to make provision for posals applied to 36 of the 50 electorates, a joint roll, is before us, though not ex- but they could not be made to apply to the [26 SEPT2mBEU, 19284.7 877

others. Speaking in another plaee the Mfih Bill before us to a-mend the Conlstitu- ister in charge of the Bill there said that tion. It was practically copied front our system of joint rolls would be almost the South Australian Acet, and was ineffective if the Federal and State boun- defeated by an overwhelming majority daries were not co-tenninons. T agree with in this House. But there they have the that statement and I ask, how js it to be province area covering the three or five effected? The .11 mister went on to say- members of the Assembly, and that is, the exact area that covers the boun- It is provided that in regard to any place which is a subdivision of a division time Gov- dary of the Commonwealth division. In ernor General may issue an Ordcr-in-Couneii Tasmania there are five divisions, each rendering the boundaries co-terminus where returning six members. So it is quite a they are within atFhdcral division. sinple matter to have joint rolls in that That is so. By a proclamation, that could State. It has been suggested that we shall he done to-day. But we- have the divisional have a redistribution of seats in Western boundary between, sm ' , the Perth amid the Australia. Here T mighit ask, is it the in- Fremiantle division, in which a person may tention of the Government to take our pre- sent five Federal divisions and allocate 10 live, and the whole of it is in the Subiaco Assembly inembers for each, which would electorate. To complyv with the Bill before make .50? 'That would reduce the 'Kal- uts, 1. cannot see how it is Practicable to puit goorlie division, which now has 24 State it into operation aintil such time as we have members, to ten, and it would Con- a redistribution of seats and the Federal siderably increase the members representing Government have taken a census and made the metropolitan area, which would also an alteration of their boundaries. That have ten. Of course the Government have will take us until 1932 before the overlap- not indicated what their proposals are in ping of the 14 electorates that we now have that direction. But they have pointed out Cani be corrected. We certainly t-ould limit how easy it would be to alter the boundaries the scope of the Bill, provided the State so as to make them coincide with those of and Commnonwealth G"overnments. were the Federal Electoral Department, and I agreeable, to about JO electoral districts. suggest that this may be one of the methods But I question very much whether, even that would fauiltate that being done. One if the State Government agreed, the Corn- of the clauses of the Bill makes provision mnonwealth would maintain the rolls of the for deleting from the principal Act the sec- State, taking only a portion of them- It tion providing for the submission of claims has been said by the Chief Secretary that for enrolment. WVhen this was discussed in joint rolls are in oper-ation in South Aus- Committee on a former occasion, it was tralia, Victoria and Tasmania. That is so. pointed out that the provision was vital to But the difficulties dlid not confront them all concerned. The Chief Secretary stressed that are before us to-mlay. South Australia the point in his second reading speech, and has a1group system under which there is in Committee he declared it was vital that returned to the Asse-mbly from an area it should remain. As our Act is drawn at three or five members, and that area fits ii' present, we have 14 clear days after a claim w-ith the Commonwealth (livision of the has been lodged, during which any person State. Then the divisional returning officer mnay lodge an objection to the enrolment. is also the rcgistrar for precisely the same In other words, the claim. card is in suspense area. That would not apply in Western for that period. But not so with the Comn- Australia. We have 16 areas which arc monwealth. The provision is made that alike, leaving 14 that are not. The Federal unnipdiately a claim is lodged, if the regis- district retorning officers for Fremnantle and trar is; satisfied, he shall enrol the claimant. Perth both have a portion of the Suhiaco Although that was defeated in this House State electorate in the territories under by 13 votes to five, the same provision ap- their supervision. Subdivide it as we pears in the Bill before us. But on recom- may, there w ill have to be two re- mittal in another place the Minister amended gistrars coverinz the one area. Tn South it somewhat. It still deletes the provision Australia the Legislative Council qualifi- for the 14 days during which one has a right cation is termned "household franchise."* to object to the enrolment of another, thus Members will remenmber when we hadl the leaving the two clauses that were formerly (COUNCIL.] in the Bill, and making a provision by be added to the rol. Then the objector may Ulause 36a, which reads- object, and if the objection is sustained, the Subject as hereinafter provided any objet- name objected to is not taken off the roll, Lion to any name on the roil may be made but is merely starred as a mnark of recog- under the provision of Sections 2 and 3 of nition that it is not properly onl the roll. So, Division 4 of Part MI. of this Act. therefore, if an uinqualified person puts in a claim card and is added to the roll, on being 1 wish to draw attention particularly to this sueessfullY objected to his namue is not provision because in our parent Act under Division 4, that has been deleted, but was struck off the roll, but is starred, as showing that it is not properly there. reinstated by the amendment. The pro- lion. A. Lovekin: What happens to thle to enrolment and to the visions relating 5s.? are still retained as powers of a magistrate Hon. E. H. HARRIS: If the objection is Notwithstanding applicable to the Assembly. sustained, the s. is returned, but if the ob- that, we also have in the Bill a provision, jection is deemed to be frivolous the objector extending over Clauses 30 to 35, relating to forfeits the 5s. and has to pay sonic costs, objections. Members will see that provision to ho determined by the departmental officer is made. for lodging an objection to an en- or thle mageistrate. rolment. With that objection there must be Hon. G. Fraser: How does the elector under Sec- deposited the sumi of s. Then, get on if objected to under the State Act? 35, thle divisional returning officeer shall tion Nion. E. H. ]HARMIS: His claim is the objection forthwith. Whilst determine lodg-ed, and then one has 14 day.. in which area asked to pass that, provision is we to object. Bat under the proposed system parent Act that one may already made in the he will be Put on the roll, and objection can for lodge an objection with the registrar be taken afterwards. the sum of halt-a-crown, and that the mnagis- Hon. Co.Fraser: Under the State trate shall determine the objection after the system claim is lodged. I think perhaps this was thie objection is heard before the expiration of the 14 dlays? an oversight when the amendment was effec ted in another place. The position now Hon. E. H. 'HARRIS- It happened in is that one canl lodge a 5s. objection or lodge tie Tilgarn electorate at the last election, a half-crown objection, and shall hare it when 17 men 'were objected to as not having determined by the divisional returning officer been in the electorate the specified period. for the Commonwealth, or by a magistrate, The person who lint their namecs onl thle roll This clause, should the provision be deleted said lie thought the prescribed month was a front the pareiit Act, lays itself open for hlumar ,,ionth, not a calendar month. The the grossest corruption iii regard to enrol- miagistrate, under the Act, which provides mnent. At present one may object to a per- that after the issue of the writ no names son's namne going on the roll, but the Com- shall be taken otT the roll, instrueted thle mnonwealth systemn provides that a person remistram to have the iatnes so niorked that presenting aL claim card shall ba enrolled the men would have to make declarations. forthwith and that thle objector may Take anl illustration: The roll closes and You have 18,000 electors in the Canning object to his enrolment afterwards, and electorate will he asked to pay 5s., -where for- and 12,000 in the Leederville elec- torate. There are 50 rolls to he prepared, nierly the fee -was 2s. fid. We know so they cannot aMIcome out on the one day. what has happened onl previous oeca- Probably there will lbe a period of two or sionse, and what may happen again. three weeks between thc issue of the lait Onl the day onl which the roll closes, somec roll and polling day. If a large number of agent will lodge 200 or 3100 claimi political Claimis are lodged on the last day, aud the the right to in- cards. At present one has ntames are put on the roll, the opposing spect them and, if desired, to object to any paroes hare no opportunity to investigate of them. In future there will be no oppor- thema to see whether they arc valid or not. tunitv for that. If ire pass this Bill, the Legislative Council Hon. J. Nicholson: One will be debarred will not he affected one iota, but a boom- fron doing that? crane effect will he evidenced later on. We Hon. E. HI. HARRIS: Yes. The Corn- are asked to bring our legislation into con- nionweallb Act-and our own iso to formnity with the Federal law, so that they he brought into conformity with it-takes may ope.rate together. We then create an away that safecruard, and the claimant will anomaly. The ob~jector for the Legislative (25 SEPTEMBER, 1928.] 879

A'SezIdbY is to lie charged 5s., and that for Hon. E. H. HARRIS: I canl be objected the Council is to be charged 2s. 6d. Four- to after I on on the roll, the objection may teen days will be allowed to a person to be sustained, and my name may be taken off. objeet in the case of the Legislative Council, On the other baud, I may get past the ob- but that wvill not be so in the case of the jection. That happened at Milgarn. If the Assembly. Is it not reasonable to assume, magistrate does not hear the objection up to if we agree to that, that we shall be asked the day when the writ is issued; a star is to bring the paraphernalia of the legislation put against my name. I may then have rehlin to enrolments for the Council into goane to a postal vote oflicer, and put my vonltorinity with that for the Assemnbly? I postal vote in. A postal vote call be chal- could qluote for an hour bad cases that have lenged until doomsday. The person will be hap-pened onl the g1oldilelds. In 1918 when on the roll and the postal vote is taken as Mr. Cornell was at the war, and I rail a bona fide evidence, and the vote is recorded. campaign for both him and Mr. Ardagh, a One may have all the courts of disputed re- number of prosecutions were launched. As turns afterwards one may like to get. So a insult of the investigations, sonmc 500 long as one's vote is in the box, it is all names were removed from one roll and 600 light. A candidate may be defeated by six from another. Persons were induced to sign postal votes, and thus nmeet his downfall by claim cards as freeholders for blocks, that means. I wish to shlow members the when they were only squatting- onl mining necessity for safeguarding the position by leases. We have 1-4 days in which to object the section that has been taken out of the to any names. I suggest if we pass the Bill, priniicipal Act. and we are afterward, asked to make the Hon. G. Fraser; In the Federal Act it Legislative Council machinery,- conform to works all right. the Assembly machinery, there will be no lion. E. H. HARRIS: If thme hall. mem- argument why we should not (10 so. Our ber would look up the poll at the last elec- safguads ill be gone complletely. When tions hie would find that in the case of six you. Mr. President. and( I were candidates electorates there was not a difference of 50 for the Council in 1.920, about 300 objections votes. In one of the boxes in my division were lodged on the last dlay relative to edee- there was a difference of seven votes. There tors in thie South Province. We had to get are five divisions in Western Australia for to work, combat these, and prove that the the House of Representatives. The electors persons had the necessary' qualifications. If therefore speak in thousands, whereas in we amend the legislation in the direction in- sonmc of the State electorates they speak dicalted, the safegruards we now hold will be only in at few hundreds. There are 50 elec- gone. I id from the electoral roll that the torates for the Legislative Assembly, and Chief Secretary' is onl it as a freeholder for thus it becomes an entirely different pro- some land at Geraldton, and as a house- position. If people make inquiries at the holder for a place in the metropolitan area. Commonwealth electoral office concerning Honl. A. J. H. Saw: He is better off than ctlaim cards they will be confronted with a the Minister for Works. section in the Electoral Act that was em- H~on. G. Fraser: He is all right now. bodied in the Bill brought down in 1927 in another place. This declares that the validity Hon. E. H. HARRIS: I am pleased to of any.% enrolment shall not he questioned. hear he is all riwht now. If the offlicials get into anl argument with lion. W. J1. Ifinn: Is he oil the Toll for any person, they point to that section, and two places also 7 that is the end of thme matter. An attempt Ron. E. H. HARRIS: I do not know. was made in another place to insert that Under the altered system, if I put in a section into the local legislation, but the claim card that I was a freeholder where Government wisely took it omit. In the case the Chief Secretary- lives, and a freeholder of the Commonwealth wve are dealing with for the place where he does not live, any- five divisions. but in the case of the Assem- one interested in that roll would have 14 bly we are dealing with 50 electorates. nlays in which to see whether I was quali- Hon. G. Fraser: The principle is the same. fled or not to be put on the roll. If we alt'er Honl. E. H. HARRIS: In practice it is the system, nothing- can prevent me from entirely different, as the hon. member would being put on the roll. know if he had conducted many campaignsi. Hon. J1.Nicholson: And an election may Ron. G. Fraser: I have been in as many take placee. elections as the haln. member, 880 [COUNCIL]

Hon. E. H. HARRIS: The hon. member be issued for his guidance, the registrar may have forgotten that point. will be under the immediate control of the Hon. G. Fraser: No. divisional returning officer, from whom he will receive his supplies, and to whom he Hon. E. H. HARRIS: The Common- -hall refer in all cases of doubt." Say we wealth officials would rather deal with five make an agreement with the Commonwealth. members who wanted information about en- Their officerI who receives a salary from rolments than they would want to deal with the Coimnonwealth Government, takces his 50. The Chief Secretary said that the ad- instructions from his superior officer, whilst vantage of a Commonwealth and State that officer will take instructions or dire- electoral system would be that all the essen- tions fronm the State Chief Electoral tials would be fully preserved. This means Officer- that the State chief electoral officer and the Hon. C. F. Baxter: How does that work Commonwealth electoral officer would be out? acting in conjunction and do all that was Hon. E. H. HARRIS: The hon. member requisite. I submit that under the arrange- mia v work it out for himself. We may find wnent the State chief electoral officer will that the Commonwealth will prevail. That not have nearly sufficient power vested in brings me to a point that crossed my mind him, especially if we pass this Bill. Under yesterday wvith reference to the industrial Clause 38 every registrar shall act and be laws of the Commonwealth. A little while under the control of the Chief Electoral ago the High Court gave a decision in which Officer of the State. The State Chief Elec- it pointed out that where there was a State tor-al Officer may inspect all rolls, books, and Federal award, and they were incon- and documents kept by any registrar for sistent with one another, to the extent of the the purpose of the Act, and satisfy himself inconsistency the Federal award prevailed. that the duties imposed upon the registrar It impressed itself upon my mind in con- arc being properly carried out. That sounds nection with the Commonwealth Electoral all right. We now want to look carefully at Act sad the State Electoral Act working in the Act and the agreement. Uinder the Fed- conjunction. Would not the same question eral Act the Chief Electoral Officer for the arise, if the two Acts were in conflict? Commonwealth is in full control. There is Would not the Federal Act prevaitl a chief electoral officer for each State, divi- sional returning officers for the respective Hon. A. Lovekin: Section 109 of the Con- divisions, and registrars who will he the stitution provides that it shall. men appointed as State officrs under the Hon. E. H. HARRIS: I do not know which section joint agreement. Under Section 9 of the it is, but it has been quoted Commonwealth Electoral Act, 1fll8-28, the in a court case with which I happened to be asssistant State returning officers are"sb associated. When the point was raised, we jeet to the control of the divisional return- discovered thot we were out of court. If sonic ig officer." Wherever we look in this Act elector took a case into court, declaring we find the words, "Subject to the control that he was on the roll and that this was of the divisional returning officer.' That prints fadie eviden,:e of his being entitled to is the Federal officer. All our officers record a vote, this; section of the Constitu- would act tinder the direction of the Chief tion Act might be raised as a technical point, Electoral Officer. I am indebted to the and then we might discover that we did not Commonwealth officer for a copy of the possessR the power we thought we had. joint instructions relative to the Common- Hon. A. Lovekin: It is perfectly clear wvealth and the South Australian House uinder the Consti'ution. Those are the very of Assembly electoral registrars appointed words. to keep special divisional rolls. That is Hon. E. H. HA1RRIS: The Chief Secre- in accordance with the ag reement made tary said- between the Commonwealth Government Everything appertaining to the preparation and South Australia. These state that, of the rolls shall be done by the Common- "Elubject to the provisions of the Com- wealth. T say that the conduct of an election monwealth Electoral Act, the Electoral shall he by the State officials. Acts of South Australia, the Common- That would be all right, but if a case arose wealth electoral regulations, and regulations involving the validity of an enrolment, the relating to joint electoral roll% these instruc- Federal law, I venture to believe, would tions, or such amendments thereof as may prevail. (25 SEPTEMER, 1928.] 881

Hon. J. Cornell: It could not be other- ruinous. We could get over some of our 'vise. difliculties if the districts were subdivided Ron. E. H. HARRIS: Hon. members into subdistriets so named as to fit in with can see for themselves where that would Federal subdivisions. I have looked into the lead us. I wish to refer to some anomalies matter closely, andl for the life of me can- existing even now. Our penalties are not not ascertain why the provision is there and uniform with those of the Federal law. The what it meanis. [ hope the Chief Secretary Bill alters thenm so as to bring them into will be able to exlain the matter. Clause line, but in doing so creates an anomaly as 38 seelk, to amend the principal Act. Now, regards the Legislative Council. In con- the interpretation clause defines "sub- nection with the Assembly, the penalty for div~ision" as "subdivision of a iiAtnict." any breach is to be £10, whereas our prin- Therefore anl electoral district may be divided cipal Act provides a penalty of £200 or im- into subdistricts alld subdivisions. A sub- prisonment for 12 months. Thus the reg- district includes a subdivision, add a sub- istrar keeping the Legislative Council roll division includes a subdistrict. What is the reason for the amnendmenit? What is it is liable to a fine of £200 or 12 months' fin- intended to convey" I am utterly unable to prisonment if hie does not attend to his discover. When the corresponding Bill was wyork, whereas the same person for a breach in Committee last session, 1 drew attention of the Jaw relating to the Legislative Assem- to certain cases inI which the measure could bly roll can only he fined £10. Another not possibly wvori. One registrar is sull- anomaly is created by the proposed amend- posed to register a man upon receipt of a mnent in the electoral lawv requiring a de- claim, and then the man is enrolled for the posit of 5s., whereas it was formerly 2s. 6d. Assembly and for the Federal Parliament. I should like to dlirect the attention of lion. 'Where a boundary runs through the centre members to Clause .38, which reads- of one of our district electorates and a man The principal Act is hereby amended as lives in a portion apjpearing on either side follows:- of a bonndary, it is not practicable to give (1) Section 4 is amended by inserting thle effect to the interpretation, at ell events following words:-'' ' Subdistrict' includes a until 1032, when possibly effect may lie subdivision of a district, and 'subdivision' in- given to it. I will quote anl instance or two. cludes a subdistrict.'' The last one that came under my notice Our parent Act has the following definition is a place called ]3allidui, which is in the of a district:- State districts of Irivin, Moore and 'food- 'Distriet'' means ain electoral district for yny. Federally, it is iii the division of Kal- the election of a memaber of the Assembly. goorlie and the division of Swan. If a Juan lives for half a month on one side of the There is the following definition of a sub- road and then crosses district:- over to the other side, thereby changing from the Federal A portion of a district the boundaries of district of, say, Swan to Kalgoorlie, or from which have been defined under the provisions of Section 090 the State district of, say, Irwin to Tood- yaly, any claim that he submits would be out And Section 99 provides that the Minister of order. may by notice in the "Government Gazette" Hon. J. Cornell: He would have a vote establish sub-districts and fix their boun- for both. daries and so forth. This Bill contains the Hon. E. H. HARRIS: No. It might following definition of a subdivision, on happen that his name would be inserted onl page 2:- the Commonwealth roll under the section '"Subdivision"s means subdivision of a dis- which declares that no claim shall be chal- trict. lenged, or he might he enrolled and have Let me here explain that whilst Western his name starred. When I was conferring Australia has 50 ,!eetoral districts and the wvith the Commonwealth Chief Eleetomal Minister has power to divide them into sub- Officer, 'Mr. Way, that gentleman was good' districts, that has never yet been done. The enough to give me a copy of the instrnc- matter was look-ed into closely before, when tions; and from a South Australian legis- we were considering the measure under which lator I obtained a copy of the claim cards the boundaries could not be made co-ter- used in South Australia for Commonwealth [COUNCIL.) and State. I hare the card before me, and If soine person lodged 100 claim cards 13 it reads- (lays before the issue of the writ, all those To the Electoral Registrar for the Sub- 16U names would go on the Federal eec- division of ...... Commonwealth Div- toral roll, nil being starred as not on the ision of...... , State Assembly district of State roll. In the case of every one of those ...... (1) 1 Din an inhabitant of Aus- tralia, and have lived continuously (a) in1 names it would he necessary to lodge a Australia for six months, and (b) in South fresh claim card in respect of the State roll. Australia f or at least three months. (If the I do not see howv that obstacle can be over- elainitiit Inns not lived for at least three come. I have digressed somnewh at, hut I months continuously in South Australia, he must strike out paragraph b).) wanted to adduce those illustrations, in or- der to show that it would be impracticable Our card under this measure must be almost to put his arrangement into operation. A a relicae of the South Australian card. The perSiln residing in 1101-6i11 of the Federal Person I have in mind, who lives in an elec- division of Fremantle, say in, the vicinity torate and remnoves within a month, miust, of the Shenton Park hotel in NYicholson- under both State and Federal legislation. road, which is in the Subiaco State elec- put in a claim card within three weeks. Buit torate, and who decided to move to Derby- if he hans not lived for a full month in the road nearby, would discover himself to havei place for which he claims, lie is not entitled moved into the Federal division of Perth. if to enrolment there. The Comm-onwealthi he lived a fortnight or three week,. official;, however, will put such an applicant in one place and then removed to the on the roll, and this notwithstanding that other, and thereupon lodged a, claim card, the applicant strikes out the portion relating the whole of the area in question being to Western Australia, showing that he does within the State electorate of Subiaco, he not claim in respect of the State roll. The would be entitled to enrolment for Subiaco, consequence will be that his name will ap- but not for any Federal subdivision, because pear on the Federal roll, but not on the he would not have resided there for the State roll until he submits another claim specified period. Let me give another in- card. In nil those instances the claimant stance to show the difficulties that arise. will have to lodge two cords, Portion of the boundary line between the THon. J. Cornell: lit leads to confusion. Guildford and Canning Assembly districts Hon. E. H. HARRIS: Our idea is to runs along Caledonian-avenue, Maylands. A remove the confusion that exists in the pub- person who, having lived on the north side lie mind owingw to the lpresent need for two of the avenue for a period of less than a claim cards. Everybody flow knows that month, then removed to the opposite side for the remainder of the month, would not two cam-ds have to be put in. In the circnum- he entitled to enrolment for either the stances I hare mentioned, a number-true, Ouildford or the Canning electorate. Ap- a limited number-will hinve to put in two pare ntly, however, he could be enrolled for claimt cards;. the 'Maylands subdivision of the Federal The Honorary Minister: How many do division of Perth, because this embraces vou think that will affect? both sides of Caledonian-avenue. Hon. E. H. HARRS: I cannt gauge Hotn. J. Cornell: The effect of Clause 22a the percentage. would he that no Assembly roll would be The Honorary Minister: It may affec:t published until after the issue of the writ. only half a dozen. Hon. E. H. HARR] S : That is so. It Hon. E. -H. HARRIS: Let me direct the means that any person who is on the roll Hoiiorary Minister's attention to a new has to remain on the roll. It alters facili- clause which hias been inserted in the Bill ties so that persons need not go to the since it wvas last before us, Clause 2 2 a- polling booth and make declarations: they can make declarations by way of postal The naines of all persons enrolled on the rolt votes. The declaration made in the booth, for ny district pursuant to claims for carol- meat or tranlsfer of enrolment received Within. however, is the one that can be challenged as 14 days prior to the date of tine issue of a to the right to vote. On the other hand, if writ for -n Assemibly election shall, on the an elector puts in a postal vote, it is counted. iqsue of a writ, bepmarked on the roll for the That is the difference. I could recapitulate district ini the prescribied manner, and for the purpose of the election such persons shall some further cases which I enumerated last he deemed not to lbe enrolled. year, relating to the district of Leederville. [25 SEPTEMPER, 1928.] 883

That district is part and parcel of the Fed- enrolments in abeyance for that period be- era! Perth and Fr-emantle divisions. I shall fore inserting names on the roll ? I not enumerate further cases, but mention have had a talk with the Common- the matter in order that the Chief Secen- wvealth Chief Electoral Officer, and I doubt tary, when reply'ing, may endeavour to if that can be done. It has been suggested answer them. Personally, I do not think that if we refer the Bill to a select com- he can do so; I do not think there is any mittee, we may elucidate seone of the matters answer to them. Perhaps the Chief Secre- that were before us on a former occasion. I tary will be able to show that it is q4uestion whether, apart from the Chief Elec- practicable to put that provision into opera- toral Officers for the Commonwealth and the tion. Although T realise that it would not State and, perhaps, one or two other officials, be in confor-mity with the Title of the Bill we could gather any information from wit- as it stands nowv, I wish the Government, nesses, further than that we have in our when they set out to provide a Bill to possession now. There is one other thing authorise the compilation of joint rolls, had only to do. If the Chief Secretary finds he included another amendment that would cannot meet the requirements of this Chamr- have enabled electors to record their votes ber, havimng regard to what was done and in other than the districts for which they the divisions taken last year-I say that were enrolled, as is clone under tile Com- with due regard to what happened in this monwealth legislation. If that were done, Chamber, because I do not think members will stultify themselves in view of the voting it would save electors from having to incur last year when the divisions on important considerable expense on account of trans- matters were 13 or 15 to five-then I suggest port and under other headings, in order that to him that he withdraw the Bill. I shall they might travel to a centre where they reserve my decision as to whether I shall were entitled to vote. Had the State fol- support the second reading of the Bill or lowed the Commonwealth in that regard, the vote against it, until I have had an oppor- change would have been a. vast improve- tunity of hearing the Chief Secretary speak ment, and wvould have been munch appreciated iii reply to the debate. by many electors. Hon. V. Hamersley: Is iso provision made On motion by Hon. J. Cornell, debate for that? adjourned. Hon. E. Ht. HARRIS: No. There are many amendments that should he made to the Electoral Act, lint owing- to the Title of BILL-WHALING. the Bill, members are not given an oppor- Second Reading. tunity to move them. The amendments I Debate resumed from the 4th September. have in mind are not conti-oversial, but are such that all members would willingly sup- HON. G. W. MILES (North) [6.5]:L port. The question arises as to what will wish to thank the Honorary Minister for happen with the Bill. Should it meet with having postponed the further consideration the same fate as a somewhat similar measure of the Bill to enable mne to discuss it with did on the last occasion, I hope, as the Chief those interested in the whaling industry. Secretary said at the end of the debate last I also thank him for the proposed amend- session, we shall not lose two or three weeks ments he intends to place upon tbe Notice of valuable time in going over the whole Paper. At the outset. I am doubtful as to ground as we formerly did. No good pur- the necessity for the Bill being introduced pose will be sei-ved by repeating that experi- at this stage. In my opinion, the Title of ence this session. Unless the Chief Secre- the Bill is hardly in order, for the Bill tary can show us that the difficulties con- should be 'termed "a Bill for an Act to fronting us can be overcome, no good will amend the Fisheries Act, 1905-2J1.' accrue from a lengthy debate. One of the principal difficulties, in my opinion, is the Hon. J. Cornell :Or "for an Act to vital clause relating to the period within operate outside territorial waters." which objection can be taken to enrolment. Hon. G. W. MILES: I understand it was We should have 14 days within which to suggested in 1921 that a similar Bill should take that action, but should we insert an be introduced. It would be interesting to amendment to that effect, will the Common- know the reason why such a measure was wealth Government undertake to hold the not brought forward at a much earlier [COUNCIL.] stage. .1 hae reason to believe that the license, hut such a clause as that which I (iovernment in power in 1.921 thought it have read should find no place in the Bill. w-'se not to interfere with the whaling in- Companies that have operated in the past dustry. As the Honorary 'Minister pointed bare mostly failed, and the last company out, whaling has been carried on off the to fail lost £24,000. The existing company shores of Western Australia since the early took over that company's rights, and dur- days. Of recent years, several companies ing the first two years no profits were made have been Operating, and most of them have baring the last two years, the company failed. I think that furnishes the explana- made enlough to pay off the liabilities 'of tion why no legislation was introduced in the old company. There are 250 odd share- 1921. We must be careful when passing holders who subscribed over £50,000 in legislation that will interfere with the in- rash and invested the money in the whaling dustry. The Honorary Minister indicated industry, and if anything should happen to that it was proposed to impose a royalty disturb the arrangements they have -with in respect of all whales fished off the coast, the present company, those people will not whether within the three mile limit or out- receive the return they have been expecting side of it. I have no hesitation in saying to get at last from the industry. I am that if restrictive legislation of that type given to understand that if the Bill is is passed, there is a very good chance of agreed to, there is a good chance of the the whaling industry here ceasing to exist. cornpany ceasing to operate. The Honorary Clause .3, including the amendment suggested Minister has given us his assurance that the by the Honorary Minister, provides that legislation will not hamper the present com- the Minister may grant a whaling license pany, and I believe he is sincere when he that will give a general right to engage in says he 'does not desire the legislation to whaling and whaling business within a pre- have that effect. At the same time, we must scribed area in Western Australia and the consider the position carefully before we territorial waters of the State, and, further, agree to pass the Bill. that no person shall so engage in Western The Honorary Minister: Clause 4 will Australia or in the territorial -waters re- not affect the license held by the company. ferred to except pursuant to a license auth- Hon. G. W. MI1LES: No, hut the com- orising him so to do granted under this pany's license expires in 1930. It is legislation, or under Section 30 of the Fish- necessary to get freslh capital to enable the eries Act, 195l.Up to the present, company to Carry On, and it is essential that whaling here has been carried on under a renewal of the lienise be granted. The licenses issued uinder the Fisheries Act and comlpanly could not wait uintil the last year one of the terums of the license is the right of the currency of the license before it was of the Gnavernnment to grant licenses up to knowni that the license would be renewed. a period of 14 years. Clause 4 of the Bill, Security of tenure is essential. however, reads- Ron. J. J. Holmcs: A license for one Every application for a license undjer this year is no good to thet coorpanly. Act shall be mnade dunring the currency of the The Honorary 'Minister: The amendment calendar vcar in which the license is to hare 1 have indlicatedl to You will deal with that effect. or iv~ the month of December preceding point. that yea-r. and everyr such ]icenoe which sanl Ion. G. AV. MILES: I do not know that hr g~rantpid phall hare effect for and clueing that year or the unexpired portioii thereof, the amendment will cover that position; I and nio ]onger. dio not think it does. The Government will Tf Clause 4 is passed, it will kill the whaling still have the power that I refer to, and industry. It is necessary to incur an ex- even with the Honorary Minister's amend- mnent, the license granted will be one from penditu~re of fromn C50,000 to £100,000 in year to year. In view of the provision in order to enzage, in whaling operations off thie FisheriC; Act for the granting of a the coast. 'No company or number of per- license fur a period of 14 years, the strong- sons will put nionev into an industry if we Pst exception to the clause in the Bill is are to give the CIoverznnent the right to taken by those engaged in the whaling in- cancel, a license by giving a year's notice. duasi ry. While that clause remains and Of course, if a company does not carry out licenses have to be renewed each year, it is the conditions of its license, the Govern- maintained by those interested in the corn- ment have the power now to cancel the pniiy that noa person would agree to invest [25 SEPTEMBCER, .1928.] 885

capital in ire whading induitry in the ab- and transhipping charges4 amounted to 3 senve of security of teniure. £36 s. 8d. To operate the industry success- Hon. A. Lovekin: fully, it is necessary to have bulk steamers the Bill-revenue, or the control of the in- in which the oil can be exlported direct from dustry? the whaling grounds to the markets of the Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoom: There is world. Clause 10 provides that the Govern- no industry yet. meat may make regulations for the purposes Hon. A. Lovekin: I cannot see what thP of the Act. Parag-raph (e) provides for "such rules as the Bill iN wanted for. Governor may think or proper to he observed in and Ron. Sir Edward Witteitoom: They are necessary of whaling- and trvin, t-,Iestaliih the industry. for the conduct and control wvhaling busimes in all respects, or for Hon 0. W. '.%[[[.ES: The Norwegians keeping any vessels, boats, or premises used re reeognise'l as the best fishers engaged in connection with whaling- or whaling bus- in the 1, Im i ',Z ivdiiqf-V i the ie days. imass in a sanitary and cleanly condition." Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 730 p.m. Thre people interested in whaling take strong exception to empowering any fisheries in- Hlon. 0. W. MILES: To Clause 5 of the spector to board their ships and decide Hill the Minister proposes to submit an whether they are in a sanitary condition. amendment giving pow~er to transfer a license Hon. J. Nicholson: Does that apply to to the liquidator of a whaling- company. any one of the big steamers calling at Fre- That will meet the request of a deputation mantle? that waited onl him. Clause 8 provides for The Honorary Minister: The mail strum- royalty onl whales and the Minister said it ers are not trading onl the coast. was proposed to fix the royalty by regula- Hon. J. Nicholson: Well, one of our tion. Time and again the opinion has been coastal steainers? expressed in this House, and by a majority Hon. J. J. Holmes : Would it apply to a of the mnembers, I believe, that we do not want any further legislation by regulation. If the State steamer? Government wish to obtain revenue from the Hon. . W. M1ILES: I object to whaling industry, a schedule should be attached to vessels being brought under that provision. the Bill setting out exactly what royalty it The Honorary 3linister: What are you is proposed to charge. The suggestion of afraid of?7 tire Minister that the royalty should be E1 Hon. G. W. MILES: It is not necessary per whale is unscientific. Whales differ in to have an inspector to go onl board those size just as trees differ in height and girth. vessels and tell the captain whether the ship The Forests Department fixes the royalty is kept in a sanitary condition. Under the oen the cubical contents of the tree, and I Factories Act there is power to inspect think the Minister should agree to fix the shore structures, and further provision to royalty onl whales at so much per barrel of that effect is made in the licenses under oil obtained. There would be no difficulty which a. whaling company operates, but I in checking the quantity of oil obtained do not see why the authorities should want during the season becatuse the quantity for to interfere with the conditions% onl board export has to be declared. I understand that ship. 40-gallon barrels are used for whale oil, and a royalty of 8d. per barrel on last season's Hon. J. Nicholson: Under what flag do take would give the Government a revenue those vessels ply? of £1,000, which was the amount indicated Hon. J. Cornell: The Jolly Roger! by the Minister. I suggest that a schedule he Hon. G. W. MILES: The Norwegian added to the Bill fixing the royalty at 8d. flag, I believe. Such restrictions are likely per barrel. To show the disabilities under to interfere with the business and we must which whaling companies operate, there was be careful not to pass legislation that will 80 tons of oil on hand when the liquidator injure the industry. Reverting to the took over. That was taken from Point amount of royalty, there was a proposal re- Clontes to Carnarvon, transhipped to Fre- cently to start the shark fishing industry mantle, and transhipped again to Liverpool. on the North-West coast, and I believe the On arrival there it realised £1I,658; the Government are anxious that it should he charges amounted to £C1,165, leaving a net done, but as soon as people put their money profit of £498. The Fremantle harbour into an industry and provide work, the Gov- 886 [COUNCIL.] erment wish to tax it. I suppose there If we submit to this sort of legislation we will be a tax on sharks if that industry is shall presently be asked to pass a law to started. pi-ohibit thle killing of ewes or of cows onl Ron. J. Cornell: They should apply the the ground that the killing of females will tax to St. George's-terrace sharks. interfere with the increase of stock. It is absurd to introduce such restrictions. It Hall. G. W. M1ILES: Yes. Such indus- is an interesting fact that the whalers do tries involve the Government in no expense not kill the females, except perhaps at the and I certainly think the sharks and the end of the season. It may be that the op- whales belong as much to the people of the erations have entailed an outlay of £100,000 world as to us. Regarding the value of the for the season, and if there has been a poor whaling industry to the State, the one eaom- catch they might kill a few femnales to make pany is paying about £30,000 a year '111 up the quantity. Whalers the world over wages. Of the 150 men employed ashore recogniise the importance of refraining front and on the boats 100 are Australians work- killing the female whales. In other parts ing under Australian conditions according of the world there is no such legislation. to an arrangement with the Australian Tfhe Minister spoke of the conditions in the Workers' Union. I should like to quote at R~oss Sea whbaling industry. He said the paragraph in the license to sllow bow the royalty charged was 2s. 6d. per gallon after workers have been protected. Paragraph S 20,000 barrels had been obtained. I think read-- that was anl error; it should have been 2s. No wage less than tine ruininiunm wage pay- 6d. per barrel. The total value of tile corn- able under any arbitration court awvard (Fed- eral or State) or any industrial award applic- miodity is 2s. lid. per- gallon. The whalers, able to Government employees i,, the district operating in the Ross Sea have to pay no within which the license is operative, or the license fee, no income tax, no Customs nearest district thereto wvithin which Govern- ment employees are engaged, shall be paid to ditties and no harbour dues. On this coast employees; employed in pursuance of the all these charges have to be met. The one license within any portion of the area covered company opei-ating- here has paid as much by the license wvich is subject to the laws of as £1l,600 in income tax; it has to pay bar- the State of Western Australia. hour dues, and it pays £30,000 a year in Other clauses read- wages. We do not want to injure opera- Similar conditions shall be observed in con- tions of that kind. Of the 150 mien em- nection with employees employed upon any ployed 40 are Norwvegians, and they are vessel used in connection with the business of employed in manning the whaling steamner. the licensees, and such other conditions stipui- It is recognised that Norwegians understand lated by tile said industrial awards, otherwise agreed to by the industrial unionuinless or whaling better tha~n the men of any other union whose mienmbers are employed, shall race. Onl the Eng-lish coast Norwegians arc apply. employed to mail the ships. Australians Should there hie any dispute as to wages nid conditions of enmploymient, such dispute alre engaged under agreement with the Aun- shall b submitted to the registrar of the tralian Workers' Union and are paid the court of arlbitration, whose decision shall be basic wage luts tropical alhlow~il&J fixed un- fine] iii binding on the parties. der the Arbitration Act, in addition to which Should the registrar of the court of arbi- each 'nan receives a bonus on the production tration be unable to deal with such dispute, the parties concerned shall appoint an arbi- of oil and guano. The bonus last year trator, and shoald)( these parties fail to agree amounted to £47 per nman. Unfortunately to an arbitrator, the Government shall[ appoint tile immediate effect of the Bill has been the arbitrator, ,vlis decision shall be final that the manager of the company, Captain .and hincdin1g. Bull, wvho is regar-ded as a leading expert Olt Thus the workers arc well protected. An- practical whaling, has reconmended his other clause in the Bill deals with the kill- company to cease operations this year. That ing of femnale, whales. information has been suipplied to inc. We Hon. J. B. Brown: How can the whalers must not do anything to drive the industry tell whether- they are females? off the coast. If we pass hampering legis- lation the company may employ factory Holl. G. WV.MILES: In the interests of ships such as arc employed in the Ross Sea the industry the whalers do not kill the that can handle the whales outside the 3-mile females unless they are compelled to do so. limit and thlus the State would run the risk [25 SEPTEMBSR, 1928.] 887 of losing the whole industry. I oppose the something specific, something that would second reading of the Hill. give members an idea of the extent of the taxation intended? Of course we knowv that RON. J. CORNELL (South) [7.451: This this Rouse has not the power to initiate such is a Bill the Council call well reject. If I legislation, but it is suggested that we should understand the position correctly, the people tax all industry that has brought capital to who are now engaged in the whaling in- the State, an industry that is employing our dustry, have put a considerable amount of own people and conforming to all our laws, capital into it and the individuals who hare andl we are asked to give the Governor embarked onl the enterprise are the type that power by regulation to tax the company's we could with profit attract to our shores, products. I am against that. I am against not only to conduct the business of whaling the impostion of taxation of any descrip- onl our coast, but to migrate to Australia tion by regulation, and I oppose it just as and become part and parcel of the corn- I would oppose any suggestion made to im- mnunity. The people who have invested their pose anl income tax by means of a regula- capital in the business have made whaling tion. It the Government consider that the an industry on the coast Others wvho pre- product of the whaling industry should be ceded thenm tailed to do that. The people taxed, the House should be given an oppor- now engaged in whaling are conforming to tunity to consider the incidence of that tax. the laws and customs of the State, are pay- If Parliament fixed a royalty, then that roy- ing income tax, paying Australian work- alty should only be altered by Parliament. men, paying Customs duties on the goods The Honorary Minister: Any regulation they use, and paying harbour dues and all framed will have to be laid on the Table of the other legitimate charges associated with the House. their work. Now it is suggested we should Hon. J. CORNELL :And as it would pais a Bill to give the Government power conme within the purview of the Tnterpreta- by regulation to tax what? To tax some- tion Act it could be disallowed. Assume, thing that belongs to the waters of the for the sake of argument, that the Bill is world, not necessarily the territorial waters passed and a regulation fixing the royalty is of Western Australia. laid on the Table of the House on the Ross The Honorary Minister: To which tax the Sea basis of 2s. 6d. per harrel, the House, company have no objection. having considered all the circumstances, con- Hon. J. CORNELL: We propose to tax cludes that the tax is not fair and is a something that is not a product of this burden on the industry. What becomes then country or of any other country. The whale of the royalty imposed by regulation? We is a migratory mammal that is the property would have an Act to restrict the industry of all, and it will be safe to say that not in certain respects, hut there would he no ten per cent. of the whales caught by the machinery by which to impose a royalty. company operating on our coast are caught Hoen. G. V. Miles: I did not advocate a in our territorial waters. It is suggested ta onl the Ross Sea basis. we should tax this company on the product Honi. J. CORNELL : No; I used that that it catchies outside our territorial wvaters merely as an argument. It is futile for the and which is brought into the territorial Minister to say that the regulations would waters for commercial purposes. It is quite he laid on the Table because if the House feasible to assume that if the company chose, considered the regulation unfair, it would they could evade our laws and do the neces- promptly disallow the regulation. If the sary work onl some island or on a vessel Government desire to tax the industry, there anchored outside the territorial limits of is only one way in which that should he Western Australia. Thus it would not be done and that is to ask Parliament to fix possible to tax them. Immediately indivi- a tax, just as Parliament is asked to impose duals display enterprise, foresight and a tax on incomes. To impose a royalty by brains in the establishment of an industry, meanis of a regulation is not right. I in- where others have failed, Governments tend to vote against the second reading of proceed at once to impose taxation. That the Bill1 because I think the little revenue is not reasonable. There is a limit to these that this suggested tax will bring in will not things and now we propose to go to the save the State from bankruptcy. Moreover, dizzy limit. It is a retrograde step to sug- the tax is liable to have a. far-reaching gest legislation of this kind. Moreover, why effect onl enterprising people in other parts does not the Minister propose in the Bill of the world who might be prepared to come [COUNCIL.]

here to establish industries. As Mr. Miles reference whatever to the Bill itself, Ife has pointed out a company was formed gave us the history of whaling from time recently to engage in shark fishing. As- immemorial to the present day. If "Han- sume again that that industry becomes an sard" could be produced, it would be found established fact and a paying concern, the that the M1inister did not make a, single Government will very probably proceed reference to the Bill except in reply to an straight away to tax themu. We should en- interjection from an bon. member who asked courage people from other countries to in- what the royalty would be and the Minister vest their capital in the establishment of replied that it would be £1. There was no industries in Western Australia, and so long reference to the ncessity for the Bill, in as they conformn to our conditions, pay the fact no reference to the Bill whntever. correct rate of wvages, pay inconme tax and 'rue Honorary 'Minister: Are you sure all legitimate charges associated with the you are correct? work on which they are engaged, we should Hon. J. J. HOLMES: Yes: I listened be satisfied. Tt would be just as logical if carefully. wve taxed a particular brand of chocolate The Honorary M1inister: You had better made by Plaistowes. That is how T view it. read1 "Hanlsard(" again. I am totally agrainst a royalty tax being im- Hon. J. J. HOL~fES: The Minister told posed on any industry and particularly an us all the elassesi of' whales and related industry that is dealing with a product, an What lhappented to the whaling industryoi inherent right to which wve can not lay claim our coast 40 odd years ago. He might also any more than can the mafn from Tinnbuctoo. have told its about John Boyle O'Reilly, I intend to vote against the second reading wrho was smnugled away fromn this of the Bill, State to .Vulerica in at whaling ship, and HON. H. A. STEPHENSON G1iletro- allso about thle whaling& ship "Ralalpha" politani-Suburban) [7.53]: To my mind the that took the convicts, awo y. There whaling industry in Australian waters was nothing in the Minister's Speech should be encouraged rather than discour- ais to thle necessity for the Bill. aged by imtposing taxation in this su- What is thle Bill pout up for? I should say gested formi. Hon. nmembers are aware that it is puDt tip merely to fill in. The Goverrn for a number of years attempts have been inpunt appear to hanve mnet Parliament this niade in Western Australia to form comi- session without lnariti any business ready. panies to carry on whaling operations, bit so they have rim wtound and fixed up a few without success. Seine little time ago I Billk, including- thi. Whaling Bill, which is happened to he speaking to a gentleman just put ini to fill uip. I do not think we who bad put a considerable amuount of capi- ought to waste time over Bills, like this. Why tal into one of these comnpanies and he in- is this industry attacked? Because there is formied me that there was absolutely no a possibility of its mneeting with some Sue- money in it. He said that the trouble was cess1. I have a report here -which T believe to that the boats went out and harpooned be authentic and which shows that one man whales and that by the time the whales hans floated three whaling companies. One reached the works, the sharks had eaten two- wats floated in 191.2 and suhsequently with- thirdsz of them. Later on the land sharks drawn. The seconid had its head station at got the other third and there was nothing Albany, and the shareholders managed to That sort of thing left for the sh'hreholders. get hack 51 per cent. of their capital. The has been going- on for some time. Several third company had a capitol of £C100,000. companies have attempted to carry onl opera- and finished up in debt to the tune of tions but the shareholders4 lost everything. £24,000. I understand the present company I put £500 into one of these concerns, hut have taken over what was left by that third very soon afterwards I got bold of some company, and that out of their profits they information that led me to withdraw it again are trying to get hack the money immediately. I intend to vote against the for the Western Australian shareholders second reading of the 'Bill. who put the capital into the earlier venture. Then HON. J. J. HOLMES (North) [7.55]: T why the Bill? We are told that the com- intend to oppose the second reading of the pany get 1,000 whbales per annum. That Hill. I listened to the Minister when he means £E1,000 in royalty. I can see in the introduced the Bill, but I heard from him no BilT some nice little billets for about six [25 SEPTEMBERt, 1928.] 8 met]. I do not know anything about as that. If one conipany canl get a 1 4-year their political views. But I can see lease, another company should be granted these boats coming in at night with the same. Under the F'isheries Act the in- whales that have to be counted and spectors are permanently employed, but if inspected. There will require to be at we are to start appointing inspectors for least three inspectors, for not any one of every job in the whaling industry, 1 do them will work frir more than eight hours not think £1,000 Will go far towards paying a day. There wsill be three inspectors to their salaries. However, the Bill will have count the whales and attend to other duties, the effect of harawiingp those in the industry. to say nothing about an inspector to go on Then I find that somebody is going to de- boarthshp. 'he mail who counts the cide how many boats are to be employed. whales, probably will bealong to the clerk's Thus it is Provided in the Bill that the Gov- union, while the inan who inspects the ship ei nor may by regulat ion limit the number of will belong to antilher union. It will be his vessels or boats to be employed. Surely duty to go on board the ship and examine these whales, as Mr. Cornell said, belong to her and see that she is clean. How is it anybody and evervhody. If there is on our, whaling ship to be kept clean? Could any- coast a company ongaged in the capture of thing more unreasonable be imagined.9 That whales, surely thle question of how many is an interference with the Merchants' Ship- they are to catch in a year should be left to ping. Act, where all these things are set forth. their discretion. If they ean catch 2,000 in- The Bill, so far a, I can see, is attacking at stead of 1,000, why should they not be aJ- company that is trying to get on to its feet. ]owed to do so? yet it is proposed to limit The only object [. can discover in the Bill is the number of boats they are to use. Every- to provi de billets for the unemployed. One thing is to be done by regulation. Nothing of these inspeetor9 will have to go onl board is in the Bill. The royalty, the number of the ship and make himself objectionable to boats and the numiber of inspectors, all are the captain-thih, possibly, by a person who to be fixed by regulationl. As I have said, does not know one end of a ship from an- I think the Bill is Put Up merely to fill in, other. It is all going to harass and annoy and T will vote against it. those people trying to work up the industry. On motion by Hon. IT. I understand the h'nse has two years to run. Seddon, debate The Bill provides that in future the lease ,adjourned. shall be from year to year. The Honorary Minister: No. BILL-FERTIUISERS. Hon. J. J. BOD_.IES: The Minister, when speaking, Should have told us all about Second Reading. it. Debate resumed from, the 18th Septem- The Honorary Minister: Certain provi- ber. sions of the Fisheries Act have beea sug. gested in conjunction with this. HON. H. A. STEPHENSON (Metro- Hon. J. J1. HOLMES: Then you pro- politan-Suburban) f.8-I.01: I have been in pose to give them a lease of 14 years? touch with those people who are directly The Honorary Minister; We never had concerned in the Bill, and I am pleased to any desire to do other. say that with very few exceptions they are Hon. J. J. HOLMES: Then why have satisfied with the measure and regard it as we a Bill that provides for a lease of only a good thing. The Bill provides for the one year? registration of all fertilisers, including the Thei Honorary Minister: I am referring name, brand and composition thereof, and it to the people concerned, and they are Provides, further, that the contents of the quite satisfied with our intention. fertiliser shall be clearly stated and shown Hon. J1. J. HOLMES: Then are you on the invoice given to die purchaser. That going to give a monopoly to this company I is really the crux of the whole Bill. There If this company is to get a 14-year lease. is nothing wrong with that. The Bill pro. why should any ofl'er company have to be teets the primary Producer against fraud content with a lease of only one year's and the unscrupulous sellers of inferior fer- duration? I can iluite understand this com- tilisers. It is in the interests, not only of pany being satisfied with such a proposition the printery Producer, but of the State as (COUNCIL.) a A;hole. It provides for the registration measure, firstly from the point of view of of all. fertiliser and also for an annual fee. farmers and primary producers generally, Some objection has been taken to the Z&. secondly from the point of view of mer- fee for each registration up to the first 20. chants and distributors, and thirdly as one and 5s. fee for each registration above 2&- who is at present engaged in the manu- That appears to me to be rather a higt facture of fertilisers. rate. Ta South Australia the registration fee is 5is. for each registration, with a mini- HON. H. J. YELLAND (East) [8.17], mum charge of £:5-a very different proposi- I support the Bill. The necessity for this tion from that iii the Bill, which is alto- measure has for a long time been recog- gether too high. .1 hope that when in Com- muised. It has been associated with the food- mittee the Chief Secretary will agree to stuffs Bill, and the dual legislation has led a reduction in those fees. Clause 19 makes to a certain amount of confusion. The dis- it an offence for a person to sell a. fertiliser tribution of fertilisers has become so im- not in conformity with the prescribed stand- portant that there is necessity for a Bill of ard. The Minister that moved the second this kind so that we may know where we reading in another place said it wats not stand. Tbe measure is clear and concise, intended to fix standards. I trust that he and meets the ease. It shows that there was was right, for if an attempt is made to fi-x an able mind behind it. I wish to refer to standards, it will interfere considerably one or two minor points, hut before doing so with the manufacturing companies. would remark that it is essential that Aums- Rion. H. J. Yelland: That refers to the tralia should jealously guard its fertilisers standard which the manufadturer fixes him- by legislation. In Australia we have in our self when he registers the brand. phosphatie manures the highest standard in the world, In some parts of America the ion. H. A. STEPHENSON: It does not standard is down to about 17 per cent. It do anything of the kind. Under Clause 37, may be wrise for me to describe the reason.s the Governor is to have power to make re- for the differentiation in percentages. In gulations and fix standards. I agree with Western Australia our standard is 22 per the hon. member insofar as the composition cent. In South Australia it is about 48 per of the fertiliser when registered having to cent., and yet they are one and the same be given. The Bill does to a certain extent superphosphate. The same thing applies as provide for a standard, bitt that is not what between the United States and Great Britain. is meant by Clause 10), or paragraph (g) Great Britain describes her percentages on of Clause 37. In Committee I wilt endeavour the same lines as South Australia does. to have the word "standard" deleted, andl Western Australia and Victoria describe sompe other word substituted. If -we sub- theirs on lines similar to those of the United stituted the words "minimum grade" for States, that is, on the smaller percentages. the word "standard" in Clause 19, they The reason for that is that when the per- would fit the Bill, and if the same thing centage of basic phiosphate' is made the "nit were done in paragraph (g) of Clause 37 of percentage, we have a greater percentage it would bring them both into line. Al of that substance than when the measure- present there is a conflict between the two ment is made in formsq of phosphoric acid clauses. I do not think standards are ne- contents in the basic phosphate. The two cessary. The effect of the provision that are easily adjusted by multiplying the per- those whIo register have to give the full centage of phosphoric acid content by 2JlS particulars of each registration is to a cer- which gives us the percentage of basic phos- tain extent creating a standard. In addition phate. Our phosphates here, 22 per cent., to giving the composition in each ease, will correspond with the phosphates in every seller of a fertiliser has to specify on South Australia and in Great Britain, 48 the invoice the composition of the ingredi- per cent. In the United States the per- ents contained in the particular fertiliser. centage of phosphates is sometimes as low Tf we substituted the words "minimum as 17 per cent., and in some cases lower grade," this would overcome the difficulty. still. I hare read of phosphates on the That would prevent anything, below that higher method of calculation being down minimum grade from being sold. If I can to 37 per cent. in Great Britain, this being- get these amendments thr6ngh, I think the equivalent to 17 per cent. of phosphoric BI will meet the position. I support the acid. When we have in Australia such a [25 SEPrTEnnai, 1928.] 891

high percentage, one of the finest samples vides for the fertiliser being true to name. of superphosphates distributed amongst I regret to say there have been cases in the farmers in the world, it is well which rock phosphate has been substituted for us jealously to guard that standard and for bone phosphate. Any measure that pre- to maintain it in its entirety. One or two vents that demands our support. I congrat- points in the Bill I am particularly glad ulate the Governmient upon bringing for- to see. One is contained in Clause 23, which ward this Bill, and upon the high standard provides that the inspectors may have the exhibited in assembling the various matters right to take samples in transit. Clause 28 dealt with. says that any sample which may be taken except one taken in course of transit shall Question put and passed. be drawn from at least 10 per cent, of the Bill read a second time. packages of the total quantity of fertiliser from which it is drawn. In all cases where the sample has to be taken, it must be taken BILL-DRIED FRUITS ACT AMEND- from 10 per cent. of the packages of the MENT. hulk from which the samples were taken, except in the case of those in transit. Second Reading. Hon. H. A. Stephenson: And not from THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. J. Mt. the factory? Drew-Central) [8.30) in moving the Hon. H. J. YELLAND: It may be taken second reading said: In 1926 this House in the factory where the fertiliser is held pasy'ed a Dried Fruits Bill. Experience has for sale, or where it is bagged and kept proved that additional powers are needed ready for sale. to make the measure effective, and amend- Hon. G. W. Miles: Would it not be bet- ments are introduced in this measure to ter for the producer if a higher grade of remedy the defects. The position of the fertiliser were sold? dried fruits industry is such that the price Ron. H-. J. YELLAND: Certainly. If obtainable for export will not enable those we could introduce a till higher grade, it engaged in the industry to obtain sufficient would reduce freights, and make for remuneration to maintain the Australian cheaper distribution and handling. There standard of living. This is due to the fact, is, however, a certain percentage of foreign I am informed, that much of the dried fruit matter required to keep down the execs- on the world's market is produced with low- sive moisture. A higher grade of fertiliser priced labour, Tn some years the price ob- may contain too much moisture, may clog tained in London leaves a very small margin the machinery and create difficulty in dis- of profit above the cost of production; in tribution. There are chemical conditions other years, this margin disappears. This will which are against these high percentages. probably be the case dluring the present season. To get a high percentage of water soluble The Californian growers are this year placing on the London market between phosphate, it is necessary to treat the whole 300,000 and 400,000 tons of sultanas which of it with sulphuric acid. That means a cer- arc being sold at 39s. 6d. per cwt. The tain amount of liquid being added to it, price does not give the grower quite half which creates difficulty in drying, and fur- the cost of production. As against this, ther difficulty in running through the mach- even the lowest grade of Australian sultanas inery. need to be sold at 50s. per ewt. to realise Hon. H. A. Stephenson: We cannot go the cost of prodluction, while the higher too high. grades reqjuire to obtain from 55s. to 65s. Hon. H. J. YELLAND: There is a limit to make them pay. The dumping of such beyond which we cannot go. In the Bili, huge quantities on the British market by there is provision, in Clause 22, for an in- Americans is due to a price-cutting war be- spector to go on a farm and take samples. tween the co-operative and proprietary I do not think any trouble is likely to arise packing sheds of California, each trying to in that connection, for the farmers would force their own particular product on the give the inspector every assistance. I ques- market. One of the reasons why the Cali- tion the wisdom of taking samples there fornian sultana packers can sell the product when the superphosphate has been held of their growers at such low figures as they upon the farm. Another wise precaution do in Canada and Britain, is the fact that has been placed in the Bill in that it pro- they go in largely for mass production, em- [COUNCIL.]

ploying a quantity of low-priced labour, 'jizhee the ninis of the different States were mostly Armenians. That control of the in- thwarted by a grower and agent named dustry in Western Australia is essential, is .James, resident in Berri, South Australia. shown by the figures denoting production Mr. ,amnes refused to comply with the orders and consumption. Western Australia pro- of the board, and this resulted in litigation duces 1,600 tons, but can only consume 810 in the High Court. To a certain extent tons, per annum, Practically half of the the court upheld the action of this agent. yearly crop. The excess half necessarily The majority decision of members of the has to he exported; there is nothing else Highl Court was%that no State authority- to do with it. If this proportion of the i.e., no State board-could prevent a dealer cropi were acquired by dried fruit dealers in dried fruits from sending fruit from one olf the State at even a nomrinal price, it State to another, according to Section 02 of would be a bad business speculation. Neces- the Commonwealth 'Constitution. They also wiry insuirance, cost of storage, and loss by conic to the conclusion that 'Mr. James had deterioration would change the asset into a not definitely proved that the fruit seized liabilityv. Prior to control it was the cus- by the South Australian Board was the tom for some growers more inclined to be identifiable fruit which was the subject of ruthless than others. to gather their crop his contract with certain firms in New South before it was really ripe, force on the dry- Wales. The judgment was in favour of ing process, and rush to Perth with samples Janmes, but it was a victory in which the and dispose of the whole of their year's victor suffered as much as, if not more than, product in the Stale market. The other the vanquished. James established the fact growers who allowed their frutit to mature, that a State board could not prevent inter- and who dried it properly, came much later state trade in dried fruits, but he did not into the State market, and in many cases secure a farthing damages. He had to pay found the market fully supplied, and con- heavy law costs, and accept for the fruit sequently were unable to sell their product. seized the price which the South Australian There was no alternative then, but for thent hoard thought fit to accept when selling his to export the whole of their crop, necessarily fruit. The action, however, had the effect receiving much lower financial returns, It of causing the boards to realise the impera- was recognised generally that the position tive necessity of the Federal Parliament was inequitable and unfair. It could not, passing a Dried Fruits Bill which would however, he altered, because there was no enable that Parliament to delegate to State power to compel every grower to bear his boards the power which the High Court held fair share of the burden of export. Hence the Federal Government possessed; i.e., of arose, here as in other States, an agitation reg-ulating, not Preventing, interstate trade, under Section 92 of the Commonwealth Con- for compulsory control of the industry, stitution. As the result of strong repre- which fortunately for the growers ended in sentations made, the Federal Dried Fruits the passage of a Dried Fruits Hill through Act camie into existence. The Hligh Court lioth Houses of Parliament. It is admitted having held that this trade between the that the price obtained for local consump- various States could not be prevented but tion is a remunerative one and if each of could be regulated, the Federal Government, the growers secured his share of the local in accordance with that decision, introduced market the position would not he discour- a Bill which ultimately became law, and a9eing. Without organisation and without which will prove helpful to all engaged in control it would be impossible for all en- the dried fruit industry. The Federal Act gvaged in thec industry to obtain a fair share provides, biter alIm- of the local market. With the object of bringing about this condition of affairs the (a) That these dried fruits shall not be Dried Fruits Act was introduced. It gives carried froin a place in one State into or throughi another State to a place iii Australia to prowers control of this industry and ean- be-yond the State in whlich carriage begins un- sures that each grower shall have his pro- less a license has beni issued under thie Act portionate share of the whole market. permitting such carriage. Similar measures were introduced in the (b) For the license to be issued subject to States of Victoria and South Australia, and conditions. last year in New South Wales3. Experience (c) For the imposition of a penalty of £100o or imiprisoanent for six mionths for infringe- has proved that the powers given to theni mient of the sectioa of the Act providing for were not explicit enough, and in conse- the issue of a license. [25 SEnnnnnm, 1928.] 893

(d For dtried fruits which ]lave been or in process of drying. This is not provided ate ini process of being carriedl in contraven- for now. In a few instances it happened that tion of the Act to be forfeited to the King. when grapes were just about ripe, though (e) For certain regulations to be made wider the Act inehiding-1, The conditions not properly ripe, they were sold. They (which may include conditions as to the ex- had not become dried, and consequently they looft from Australia of dried fruits by or on did not come under the provisions of the behalf of the person applying for o license) Act.' This proposed amendment will remedy upon, which licenses may lie issued. 2, Penal- ties for any offence against or contravention that defect. Paragraph (e) has for its of time regttlatimiis, or :1.1%,conditions of the object to cover the operations of barter. license. Some growers endeavour to defeat the Act The Federal Parliament, in agreeing that by einaing extensively in barter, instead licenses should be granted for interstate of selling in the ordinary way; and by that trade, insisted that the Federal Minister means they have got over the Act. So Ion- should be the final arbiter as to the amount as they exchanged their product for any; of hank guarantee or forn of security which class of goods, it wars all right. Paragraph the owner-licensee should provide, in order (e) is intended to meet that evasion. Clause to obtain licence. Prior to the passing of 3 makes the hoard a body corporate. The the Federal Act, Clause 17 of the Dried Minister, I may mention, has only the power Fruits Act of this State was non-effective, of veto. The object of Clause 3 is to give as was shown in the James case. It is now perpetuity of succession to the ])oard, the effective, and the amendments of our legis- same as in the ease of road hoards. At lation here proposed are really machinery present, if an election takes place, an en- clauses designed to facilitate the better tirely new set of mcii may be selected, and working of the Act. It is now effective be- they may appoint a new secretary, who may cause of the action taken by the Common- he entirely new to the work of the hoard; wealth Government There is now in exist- and even then they are not bound by the ence machinery, provided by the Common- acts of their predecessors. Clause 3 pro- wealth, to enable the Acts of the various vides perpetual action under a common seal, States to be effectively administered, con- the actions of the board to bind their suc- ditionally upon their being amended to bring cessors. Clause 4 is designed only to give them into harniony with Commonwealth to act on the provision legislation. I shall now explain the various the Board power clauses of the Bill. By Clause 2, paragraphs made in the Commonwealth Act as it at (a), (b) and (c), the definition of "dealer" present exists, or may be amended later on. has been widened to cover "buyer." It has Clause 5 adds a sub-section to the principal been found that some gr-owers are also Act. The Federal Act, as recently passei, dealers and it seems unreasonable to pro- has given power to Dried Fruits Boards to hibit these people from carrying out what regulate interstate trade, and the provision has always been their means of living. The here is to prevent any interference with in- inclusion of buying as well as selling facili- terstate trade except as provided by the tates the working of the Act as it is some- Commonwealth Act. Clause 6 amends Sec- times easier to prove buying front other tion 18 of the principal Act. This refers to than shopkeepers than to prove selling only. the returns, wvhich bare to be filled in by In the existing Act a person is not regarded the growers. The amendment is imperative as a dealer unless he sells more that) two in order that the Board may obtain infor- tons of dried fruit in a year. In order to mation that wiligive it powver to decide the evade the Act it has been the practice of quota of dried fruit that is to be exported sonic buyers to divide up the parcel of two from the State, and also the quantity that tons or more, into one ton lots or lesser quantities than two tons, thereby avoiding is to be sold locally. The returns, under this the need to register as a dealer; and it is amendment, will show what the grower esti- therefore considered advisable that the, mates to produce in the then current year. quantity should be one ton. as wvell as the quantity produced in the year Hon. J. Nicholson: I remember there was immediately preceding. Clause 7 is comple- a good deal of discussion over that clause, mentary to the previous one. The Act is as to the two tons. now defective in that respect. Additional The CHIEF SECRETARY: I think there provisions have been inserted that will was. Paragraph (d) of Clause 2 gives tighten up the operation of that clause. power to prevent the sale of grapes that are Regarding Clause 8, the old Act gave any- [COUNCIL.]

one power to trade for one month without that Section 25 of the old Act was not the necessity of registering, and unscrup- clear, and in order to prevent any further ulous persons could thus nullify the decision action at law, it isi proposed to delete cer- of Parliament. The new clause is designied tamn words. With reference to Clause 13, to prevent this by reducing the period dur- Section 26 of the old A&ct has also been ing which any dealer may trade without re- proved in practice to be amibiguous, and it gistering, and insisting that such trading is proposed to delete certain words and add without registering is illegal unless the other. It has bemi found that the Board is dealer does register within two week. likely to incur serious losses, unless it is de- Hon. J. Nicholson: You attach a fairly finitely stated when the price to be paid the heavy penalty to Ehe clause-500. grower is to he lelrlnined. This obviously Hon. J, R. Rrov.ni: The lawyer& will cut should be when the fruit is sold and not into that! when the fruit is first acquired. There is The CHIEF SECRETARY: With re- sometimes a difffrence in the price when spedt to Clause 9, the section of the old thle fruit is acquired and when it is sold, Act dealing with this matter-Section 21- and when it is greater at the time of ae- wazs not clear, andl consequently there was quisition, the Board is likely to receive litigation and a decision was, given against claims for the price at that date and, in the Board as the Court considered that the eon sequen ce, to suffer serious toss. section was ambiguous. It is therefore pro- Hon. J. Nichols4on: Will you not require posed to amzend tile section by deleting cer- to make that i-estropectie9 tain words and adding others. Under Clause The CHIEF SECRETARY: I do not 10, Section 22 of the Act has been rc- think it is initendesd to make it retrospective. modelled by the Parliamientary Draftsman Hion, members will realise that very often to make the purpouse of the Act clearer. In there is a differenee between the price at the addition to the remodelling, there is a pro- time the dried fruit was taken over and the vision that "the Jird mnay in its discretion price paid when the fruit was offered for refuse or grant any application for regis- sale. This alteration embodied in Clause 14 tration."1 That is rather a drastic provision, is consequential iiponi Clause 3, which has but it is considered necessary. This has for its object the manking of the Board a been inserted in order to get over the posi- corporate body. Clause 15 deals with mnach- tion in the past, xhich compelled the hoard inery provisions, giving further power to automatically to register dealers whether inake regulations in order to ensu~re effi- they considered them suitable or not. The cienev. Board has had experience with persons whc Hon. J1. NicholLon: Is there no safe- defied the Board and ref used to carry out its guarding clause against personal liability policy and consequently the administration such as Is in the- old Act? of the Act has been very difficult in certain The CHIEF Sc,'CRETARY: I caninot instances. A ease occurred where a per-son say; I have the Act here. Regarding Clause obtained thle signatures of a number of 16, at the present time the power of the growers on a form, by which he purported Board to take pm'ceedins to purchase the wbiole of the crop of each against an of- Jut-is.- grower, and to export it to the Easternl fender is limited tinder the Summiary diction Act to sir months after the dlate of States, to be sold in the Australian market. the offence. It has been found, The dates placed onl the contracts showed in connection with dealing in that they were ostensibly made two days be- *lried frits, that many fore the Act came into existence, and when months may elapse before the offence is dis- it was practically certain it would become covered and thus thle object of the Act may law. A ease occurred later where a packer be nullified. In order to give the Board advertised in the daily Press a. means of some necessary and greater latitude, it is evadingr a regulation issued by the Board proposed to increase the time from six to and invited growers5 to take advantage of the twelve months during which the Board may method he proposed, stating they could find take proceedings. I move- out particulars by ringing up 'Phone That the Bill be now read a second time. No. -. On motion by lion. H. J. Yelland, debate Hon. J. Nicholson: Was he a lawyer? adjourned. The CHIEF SECRETARY* No. Re- gardling Clause 12, litigation has proved House adjourned at 8.53 p.m.