Moonshining in Franklin County, Virginia
Interviewer: Ashley Alexander
Interviewee: Cecil Love
Instructor: Amanda Freeman
February 10, 2016
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Table of Contents
Statement of Purpose 3
Interviewee Release Form 4
Interviewer Release Form 5
Biography 6
“Moonshine in Rural Virginia” 8
Interview Transcription 16
Interview Analysis 51
Works Consulted 56
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Statement of Purpose
The purpose of this oral history project and interview with Cecil Love is to create a primary source document on Moonshining in Franklin County, Virginia. By reading this oral history project, an individual will learn about a piece of the Southern culture of Virginia and the aspect of the illegal economy that was underground.
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Interviewee Release Form
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Interviewer Release Form
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Biography
Mr. Cecil Love was born on February 11, 1928 near Briar Mountain in Franklin County.
He was born to Emmett and Ellen Love. Cecil had 11 siblings; one sister died at an early age and two brothers were killed in World War II. Cecil’s father, who came from West Virginia to
Virginia, worked in the lumber business doing sawmilling, etc. His mother was a strong
Christian woman. He and his family lived in a small frame house. Mr. Love attended school, but his education stopped after the seventh grade at Briar Mountain School. It was at this time that he began his moonshining “career”. He started as a blackberry picker and “dropping fertilizer”. He really got noticed when he took a huge load of wood across a creek to a man’s still. He earned
$100 and “got hooked.” He took a break from moonshining and entered the Korean War in 1952 until 1953. He received a Purple Heart after being shot in the right leg. Mr. Love continued to be heavily involved in the moonshine trade when he returned home. He made it, transported it, and sold it. He never was caught moonshining until June 13, 2011, at the age of 83. Prior to this, he Alexander 7 had never even had a traffic ticket! He was placed on probation and fined $250. Mr. Love currently lives in Rocky Mount, Virginia with his wife, Geraldine. They have been married over
60 years and have two children. He has been featured on Discovery Channel’s “Moonshiners” series and is known as the “King of Moonshiners”.
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Moonshining in Rural Virginia
Did you know that NASCAR started after moonshiners modified their cars so they could outrun the law during their midnight transportation of moonshine (NASCAR)? Moonshining started during the Prohibition Era when alcohol was illegal to drink. The illegal manufacturing and sale of liquor went on throughout the decade, along with the operation of smuggling of alcohol across state lines and the informal production of liquor (“moonshine” or “bathtub gin”) in private homes (“Prohibition”). Moonshine caused many problems in society, especially violence. Therefore, in order to understand the perspective of someone who participated in making moonshine, it is important to first examine the history of alcohol, Prohibition, and the resulting problems such as bootlegging and gang violence.
Before Prohibition occurred the problem with alcohol became more serious. Americans were drinking alcohol, more so than in any other period of history. In the years between 1800 and 1830, Americans drank more hard liquor than any type of alcohol. With people ingesting this amount of alcohol came the problem of drunkenness, which caused “hardships in families being affected by their father’s drinking” (Blumenthal 18-19). Abraham Lincoln said, “ Many were greatly injured by it… but most problems were caused not “from the use of bad things, but from the abuse of a very good thing” (Blumenthal, 19). Excess alcohol consumption also increased the level of violence. As a result, many people began to look for ways to reduce or stop people from drinking alcohol because the problem was increasing, and families were being torn apart.
Another problem emerged with the consumption of alcohol when the government decided to tax alcohol as a way of raising revenue for the government. Alexander Hamilton,
Secretary of the Treasury, asserted, “ For a man trying to raise money necessary to run a Alexander 9 government, that made alcohol the very model of a taxable item” (Okrent 53). Hamilton also found the social value in taxing alcohol as doing so might curb drinking. Even before the temperance movement gained popularity, many people supported Hamilton’s belief that a tax on alcohol was justified. However, there were many people who opposed the tax. To the rye farmers of Western Pennsylvania, alcohol was a “ portable cash crop” (Okrent 54). The excess tax on whiskey led to the Whiskey Rebellion of 1794. George Washington raised a small army who put down the rebels. However, the Whiskey Rebellion, just like Shay’s Rebellion before it, had a major impact on government. Shay’s rebellion showed the weaknesses of the Articles of
Confederation and the need for a national army (Okrent 55). The Whiskey Rebellion showed how the government became stronger and was able to put down the rebellion. The Whiskey
Rebellion also led to the formation of political parties because many people felt the whiskey tax interfered with states’ rights. The tax on alcohol continued to remain a problem. The tax was suspended in 1802 but was reinstated under James Madison to pay for the War of 1812, suspended in 1817, and then brought back by Abraham Lincoln in 1862 to finance the Civil War
(Okrent 54). The tax remained after the Civil War, and for most of the next 30 years the tax on alcohol “annually provided at least 20% of all federal revenue, and in some years more then
40%” (Okrent 54). By the end of the first decade the 29th century, the tax’s continuation was “ the most intensely debated issue in American public life” (Okrent 55). However, government deemed the tax necessary to finance the American government.
Concerns about excessive drinking led to the growth of temperance societies. The temperance movement was “a pledge to not drink at all, totally abstinence from all liquor including beer, cider, and wine” (Blumenthal 19). Alexander 10
The Women Christian Temperance Union played a major role in this movement because one of its primary functions was to protect women and children from the abuse related to alcohol use.
(Women’s Christian Temperance Union). The group met in churches to pray and marched to different saloons to ask them to close their businesses. The group became the first national female political powerhouse (Behr 37). This organization would forever change the way generations looked at drinking alcohol and the influence of women. The WTCU gained the support of schools and religious adults with its motto: “God gives us the only drink- tis pure, cold water” (Behr 39). The WTCU and other temperance groups handed out a pledge for those at the saloon to sign. People who agreed to sign a pledge of total abstinence were written in a ledger and a “T” was placed in front of their name, indicating their “total” commitment. That is where the term “teetotalers” came from (Blumenthal 19). Due to the pressure from these organizations and from the leadership of such women as Mary Hunt, who got schools to place a primer educating students on the effects of alcohol“, states began to adopt the notion of ‘going dry”(Blumenthal 19). By 1906, more than thirty states had adopted laws that gave towns or counties the right to vote themselves dry, and hundreds have done so” (Blumenthal 45).
Temperance also created a divided society, those who indulged in drinking and those who fought to stop the drinking. By 1908, one third of the U.S population- some 33 million people were living under so called prohibition laws” (Blumenthal 45). Gaining widespread attention, the issue of alcohol became a major issue in politics.
The Anti- Saloon League also continued to fight for Prohibition. The League used its publishing company, “American Issue”, to produce magazines, posters, and flyers in order to bring the anti- alcohol message to the American public (“The Fight for Demon Rum”). Anti- alcohol organizations, Protestant ministers, and other supporters believed that Prohibition would Alexander 11 increase worker productivity and create more stable lives for families. By 1916, 23 of 48 states passed anti-saloon legislation (“18th and 21st Amendments”). Then, after the senate elections of
1916, two-thirds of the newly elected senators were “ dry members” (“18th and 21st
Amendments”). Finally, in 1919, Prohibition became the 18th amendment of the Constitution.
The ratification of Prohibition had a major social and economic impact in America. In
1919, when the 18th amendment became the law of the land, ““the manufacture, sale and disputation were banned” (“Prohibition”). People could no longer drink alcohol in their homes, and any violation of this ban was punishable by up to 6 months in jail, and a fine up to $1,000 dollars (“Prohibition”). The accompanying Volstead Act outlined the specifics of the 18th amendments. Representative Andrew Volstead was the key component of this act, which stated
“any beverage of an alcohol content of more than ½ of 1% was considered intoxicating”
(Blumenthal 55). Wilson vetoed the act, but “ 3 hours after the president vetoed prohibition enforcement bill, the House passed it over his veto by a vote of 176 to 56. The following day, the
Senate did the same thing by a vote of 65 to 20, more than was needed (Hayti Herald
Newspaper).
Prohibition was supposed to lower crime and raised taxes that were needed to support social programs and programs for the poor, but instead, Prohibition transformed American’s attitudes toward authority figures, such as law officers and politicians. Crime and corruption exploded in America. During Prohibition, “ Chicago gangsters, crooked cops, and corrupted politicians and the booze- consuming public all conspired to keep the drinks coming” (Cross-
Chicago Tribune). The breaking of laws became widespread and showed the disrespect
Americans had toward authority figures, many of who were corrupt. This attitude spread through society, making many people feel that responsible authority figures could not do Alexander 12 anything to stop the corruption. The ironic factor is that gangsters welcomed Prohibition as it provided them with a lucrative undercover business. “Prohibition was a time hooch, moonshine, they called it was made” (The Great Depression, Hossain Oral History). Underground speakeasies became commonplace, especially throughout big cities like Chicago and New York.
Customers would enter these establishments by giving a code: “Joe sent me” (Cross – Chicago
Tribune). Women, who had previously been looked down upon if they frequented saloons, entered the speakeasies as often as men, without their reputation suffering (Cross- Chicago
Tribune). In Chicago alone “ by 1924 there were 15 breweries in the cities going full steam and estimated 20,000 saloons (Cross- Chicago- Tribune).
The Bootlegging industry divided cities like Chicago and New York into different territories run by gangsters like Alphanze Capone. Gang Violence broke out between rival bosses. The gangster Johnny Torrio brought in Al Capone to help open a number of “ vice and booze roadhouses” (Cross). Gangsters made a fortune: “federal authorities estimated that
Capone- Torrio mob pulled in $70 million a year” (Cross). As Al Capone became more important in the gang world, gang-style murders became common, such as the Valentine’s Day massacre in 1929 on the North Side of Chicago when men dressed as policemen gunned down 7 men. (Blumenthal1). Authorities thought the attack was ordered by Capone, but it was never proved.
Founded in 1786, Franklin County Virginia served as a major area for the production of alcohol (“Moonshine Built on Long History”). The mountainous and rugged region of Franklin
County made it a perfect sport for moonshiners who were trying to avoid the law enforcement.
Most of the residents of Franklin County made moonshine for their own use or as a side business, but almost everyone in the county took some part in the industry. Then during Alexander 13
Prohibition, moonshining industry became more profitable and increased in Franklin County,
Virginia, which became known as “The Moonshine Capital of the World” (Stephenson Prolog).
The county earned its nickname for the immense volume of whiskey produced and for the legacy of moonshiners. (“Moonshine Reputation Built on Long History”). Moonshine is liquor made from corn mash, like other forms of whiskey, but the difference is the aging process. Common whiskey like Jack Daniels can take ten years or more before it is ready while moonshine can be ready to bottle in days (Caviness). Generations of Franklin County Bootleggers passed down their techniques to their children. These bootleggers, unlike the organized crime gang leaders, were ordinary citizens who were making moonshine to earn a little money on the side to support their low income. Government statistics reported that between 1930 and 1935, “a total of 37 tons of yeast, 16,920 tons of sugar and thousands of tons of malt meal used to make the whiskey were shipped to Franklin County” (“Moonshine Built on Long History”).
When the government made the decision to tax whiskey, moonshiners went underground.
They built stills in the deep mountainous areas and made whiskey at night. Many local police, who knew about the local moonshining, accepted bribes to ignore the activity. However, illegal moonshining became more profitable and government investigation increased. In one case, a federal grand jury indicted 34 in one conspiracy case that defrauded the federal government out of the estimated 5.5 million dollars in whiskey taxes (“Moonshine Built on Long History”).
As time progressed, more and more organizations wanted to repeal Prohibition. In 1932
President Roosevelt ran on the platform to repeal Prohibition (Behr). Mabel Willebrandt, deputy general in charge of prohibition enforcement, made this statement in 1929:” No political economic, or moral issue has so engrossed and divided the people of American as the prohibition Alexander 14 problem” (Behr 162). Prohibition finally ended on December 5, 1933 with the 21st amendment
(Prohibition).
Although Prohibition failed, most historians believe that Prohibition was a natural result of the temperance movements that occurred during the middle and late 1800’s and the increasing reforms of the progressives. Supporters of Prohibition wanted to improve society, and they believed alcohol was an evil that was beginning to pervade society. Most historians claim that
Prohibition was only repealed because of the terrible economic conditions brought on by the
Great Depression. Many historians claim that Prohibition basically shut down industry in the
United States. Historians believe that the motives behind Prohibition were valid as society was suffering from the abuses of alcohol. Yet, in the end, the health of the American economy was more important then the heath of the American people.
However there are historians who look on this period with a little humor and indifference until it brought on gang-like violence like the mafia and notorious criminals like Al Capone.
Walter Lippmann, the famous columnist and critic denounced Prohibition as the “ circle of impotence of which we outlaw intolerantly the satisfaction of certain persistent human desires and then tolerate what we have prohibited” (Behr 239). Lippman is referring to what many people felt was the uselessness of Prohibition in that it turned over these vices “to the exploitation of the underworld” (Behr 239). Organized crime, bootleggers, and corrupt officials got rich while society suffered the negative effects of increasing crime and murders. Historians realize that legislation alone cannot solve most of society’s major problems. People make up government so for real change to take place the majority of people have to support the changes.
The effects of alcohol and Prohibition have made a big impact on society throughout history.
It has been a very divisive topic, one that places the government against the people it represents. Alexander 15
From small time moonshiners to Chicago gangsters, alcohol has caused many to rebel against the law and lawmakers have been reluctant to step in to change laws with regards to alcohol. Even though Prohibition is over, the issue of alcohol and its effect on our lives still continues today.
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Interview Transcription Interviewee/Narrator: Cecil Love Interviewer: Ashley Alexander Location: Dairy Queen, Franklin County VA Date: December 29, 2015 Translated by Melchora Alexander
Ashley Alexander: This is Ashley Alexander and I am interviewing Mr. Cecil Love on the topic of Moonshining as part of the American Century Oral History Project. The interview took place on December 29, 2015 at 9 am located in Franklin County Virginia. This interview was recorded using a Laptop.
Ashley Alexander: Okay Mr. Love, My first question is what was it like growing up in Franklin
County during the Prohibition?
Cecil Love: Well the Prohibition had kind of got old. I was born in 28, 1928 and I wasn’t quite old enough for that so after that it was tough. I mean trying to make a living in Franklin County.
There were no jobs…. Dropped fertilizer all day for 50 cents, cut wood, anything to make a quarter at you worked at and it was tough. We had 12 in my family, 12 kids.
AA: Yea, tell me about your family. I want to know about your family.
Cecil Love: What?
AA: How many siblings do you have? Alexander 17
CL: 2
AA: 2 siblings?
CL: One boy and one girl.
AA: Where did you grow up?
CL: I grew up in Briar Mountain, what’s called Briar Mountain back up in the country. Weren’t any running water, no trucks. No____. You lived on the land. But I got a daughter up in Bent
Mountain (Door slam in background)____+++. She is in the title business and worked up in the
Courthouse and all that.
AA: Ok. What was your father’s line of work? What did your father do?
CL: Well, he grew up in them tough days and more or less got in the lumber business, cutting lumber, saw milling, the hand mills. We had a few head of cattle and cut wheat and rye, but cradled… We didn’t have machines like what we have today. They hand cradled it. So we always enjoyed life. They got together once a year come Christmas: the neighborhood, family played music, danced, sung (laughter) all kinds of…
AA: Wow! That’s awesome. And tell me about your schooling. When did you stop school? Alexander 18
CL: When did I stop?
AA: Or when did you… tell me about your schooling.
CL: I stopped in 1936 going to school. The old school teacher rode a horse. She didn’t ride a buggy. There was no way. We had to take the water in and heat it. Took the firewood in. Didn’t have no electricity. When I first went to school, she said lay my hand on that desk and I knew her good but I thought she was going to have a ruler in her hand, but she said there were 6 things at my school you’re going to learn_____ trust the Lord, that’s number 1, read, write, ‘rithmetic, spelling, and respect. If you use them 6 items you’re making us all right, by God. And I thought then at school, I had a brother who had gone through school ahead of me three years and a first cousin and a neighbor, all them. All them got killed in World War 2. They went to Germany all 4 of them did.
AA: Wow!
CL: Then I come along and I’m going to Korea.
AA: Oh yeah… (Slamming of front door)
CL: (Slamming of door) ____ + I almost got killed over there I got shot up over there. That’s the reason I can’t walk. Alexander 19
AA: Wow! Didn’t you earn an award, a Purple Heart award or something?
CL: Oh yeah! It’s sitting in that truck right there.
(Crowd Noise)
AA: That’s so cool that you won an award! Ok my next question’s about moonshining. How did your family get into moonshining?
CL: Well, that’s a curious thing. When I was probably 13 years old and there was some big people they had a big distillery down where we was at, where we was living at on the people’s property. The people had died and they put a big one there. And I got to going up there when I was thirteen years old to drop fertilizer____, picking blackberries, you know you’d get a bottle and a half a day, you’d thought… I’d go sneaking out where they were. at They had a big pile of firewood at the distillery (dishes rattling) and I would tote that wood for them across the creek.
He had a man come up there and say, “ Who toted all that wood?” and they said, “ That boy over there did!” He picked up a big stick and said “Come over”.
AA: Wow!
CL: And he gave me a $20 bill. I thought I was the richest thing in the country (laughing from
AA) $20! Alexander 20
AA: That’s when you started - - after you saw that?
CL: You couldn’t keep me away! My daddy said you better stay but_____+ everyday. From then on everyday we got into the business where we could make money and______in the pasture and Bald Knob [Landmark in Rocky Mount] right here in town and different places and get 4 something an hour and that’s all you got and I’m makin’ (noise from the background) sometimes $50 an hour in the whiskey business and you could hire out to a man at a big distillery for working 3-4 hours. So that’s what drove me into the whiskey business.
AA: (5:19) Ok. So you were you 12 years old when you got into the business?
CL: I was 13 years old and I kept going back and going back and got into the big time whiskey hauling and making. I worked in 62 distilleries in Franklin County in my life. They wasn’t legal.
(Laughter from AA). They were illegal. And sometimes a man would come up through the woods and you just run, jump over fences, and get away from them (laughter from AA) I never been caught till that deal______(interrupted by AA)
AA: Yeah… when you got arrested…
CL: I tell you when I go before the court (noise in the background) I go before the
Commonwealth…
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AA: Uh- huh?
CL: The Commonwealth wrote down what I do in the Court. I paid no time. I paid no fine (door slam) I had a suspended sentence. Bill Alexander {Now retired Judge of Rocky Mount] was sitting on the bench. He came up to me the other day and said “ You making a little brandy?” I said, “Bill, I’m too old. I’ll take you and I’m going to let you make it”. He said, “ I’m too old!”
But anyway he’s the only man in my court who tried himself. I tried myself. In his court.
AA: Oh my gosh!
CL: He said, “ We got good lawyers but you charge more than most lawyers we got there.”(Door slams). We’re not dumb people here in Franklin County (laughter by AA)
AA: Wow! Was your mother worried that you were involved?
CL: Oh she was a strong and Christian and preached to us day to day. “ You don’t need to be doing this. I know you’re going to do what you want, but stay out of it.” You know, anything your mother tells you, you forget about it. But we weren’t trying to break no law. But everybody, everybody was connected. Some of them sold apples; some of them sold corn, wheat, rye. They were all bootleggers they got money out of it.
AA: Um-hmm. Yeah. Ok. Why were ….Why were Alcohol Beverage Control officers always going after moonshiners? The revenuers? Alexander 22
CL: That was taxes. Moonshiners weren’t paying taxes. If you paid taxes, you might get paid.
They get one there. They got one there out in town now. (Talking about new release of legal moonshine in town). They’re paying taxes. (Door slamming, people talking in background).
That’s what the state wanted…taxes. The government brought in men______+ all of it’s big tax money. Like the Internal Revenue, you don’t pay no taxes, you ain’t going to be last for long.
AA: Yeah. What’s the scariest part of moonshining for you?
CL: The scariest?
AA: The scariest. Were there any scary moments?
CL: Well, I wasn’t really anything scared by except by hauling whiskey in these fast cars. We had them cars fixed up in 1939, the ‘40s Ford, you know, with them big powerful engines and you’d go down the road a hundred and forty mile an hour ______+ . (Laughter in the background)
AA: Wow!
CL: And if you had the thing loaded with the whiskey and if you wrecked it, supposedly you wouldn’t survive because all that weight was behind you (laughter in background) but that’s about the scariest for me______+ 40 mile an hour ______+ 100 miles an hour. Alexander 23
AA: Whew! Did anybody get hurt?
CL: Do what?
AA: Did anybody get hurt?
CL: I never did get hurt in the whiskey business, but I got hurt sawmilling. I got in the lumber business. Got my legs broke (door slamming) and crippled up in Korea. Fell down in my basement a couple years ago and got crippled up. I’m 87 years old! That makes a difference.
AA: Big difference!
CL: ______+ riding these dirt roads when Dr. Hagy [interviewer’s grandfather] first came here. Most all of these roads were gravel or dirt roads. I’d see a man crack to put his feet down when he got out of his vehicle______+ When he {Hagy} first came, there was a rough bunch in Rocky Mount. I didn’t know it. He came up in Tazewell. (door slamming)
CL: Dr. Hagy, you from Tazewell? (addressing interviewers grandfather). You know what them old days is. He knew about the whiskey business. I went to him many times as a doctor. He’d check something out. He’d laugh at you, grin at you. We had a lot of fun. Dr. Collin, Dr. Wolfe
[Old doctors from Rocky Mount] They’re all dead and gone except Dr. Hagy. You know Mark Alexander 24
[interviewer’s uncle]. Me and Mark are great friends, married with a little girl down in
Sydnorsville. We eat up at Bowling’s (a local diner). A little ole country boy. Mark.
AA: (10:12) Ok. Now, what do you think of the TV series “Moonshiners”?
CL: What do I think?
AA: Yeah. Are you on it or….
CL: Well, I’m on but they didn’t put what I wanted on there______+ I wanted to go back and see what’s happened back in the day when the brothers got killed and everybody got sad. I wanted to show an ole timey chimney where we had built near my home. We still own it. Ole chimney made out of mud, and rock. Not____ of brick. The people out of New York with the cameras fell in love with that chimney. They said “ We’ve never seen nothin’ like it. Who makes it? “I said “ Them ole mountain people made it.” (Clears throat and beeping in the background).
So he said “Bobby, we’d like to buy this place. I said, “ It ain’t for sale”. I said, “ You don’t like it as good as I do.” He said, “ What do you like?” That was our Santa Claus chimney. Santa
Claus would come round here back in the, 40’s, the 30’s (talking in the background) Santa Claus would be with him. Well an uncle of mine, he’d have a big bag of candy. Santa Claus, by the time he came round after taking a big beatin’ on him, we’d go to cryin’ and pointin’, 12 kids round there. Snow would be about knee deep! My uncle would take that whole bag of candy like he’s feedin’ chickens and throw it out in the snow and we’d be down there digging that candy out of the snow. That’s the day we had a Christmas! Alexander 25
AA: Wow!
CL: Not bringing presents, but throwing that candy out…
AA: yea!
CL: and everyone digging (someone coughing) Maybe____+ apple in the mornin’ and a big plate and go on and have a little party. If you got to eat at home, the old people eat before you did.
You didn’t get to eat when they did. The chicken for the most part was gone before you got into it. They done eat the best. (laughter) (Door slamming)
AA: So, have you been arrested for moonshining?
CL: Just one time.
AA: One time? Can you tell me about it? What happened? (Laughter in background) Explain that day.
CL: Well, I was really (talking in background), I was trying to make, I was trying to experiment like Mrs. Hagy [interviewer’s grandmother]. She’s always asking me about how to make cornbread. I made cornbread for years like my mother’s take a piece, put it in big and thick ya know. I always (music in background) wanted to experiment with something in my life. The Alexander 26 women who cooked years ago,like Mrs. Hagy or whoever. They always wanted the last meal they wanted to cook in life, they wanted it better than the first.. You want to get it better, you do it. So that’s the kind of the way it was. So this time, I wanted to make a little brandy. The best that ever came out of the country. So I go to the extreme. Wife was always, “ You don’t need to do it.” I was like “ I’m not doin’ it for money. I just wanna experiment. “ So I go way up to
Meadows of Dan [in Patrick County, VA] (dishes clanking) +______new outfit and paid you $3000 to build it. ______+ Little grove people had up to in [Calloway]
(background noise) had some wine so I barreled it+______storage and coolin’ it (?). You don’t want to bother it+______underground peaches. (Background noise). They had a saw kind of built like a building that’s where they kept the +______at to keep’em from getting rotten so I’d take ‘em out of the freezer, the juice would run out of ‘em and I wanted to make the best brandy. But anyway, the mornin’ I was there, it was already produced. I had my little distillery filled up with apples, I had my fire goin’ and the man yelled “ Put your damn hands up “ like I was a robber and 2 ABC men with guns drawed on me.” I said “ What in the hell is wrong with y’all”? I can’t walk no way!”+______But they come down there what we call “lipJune”?______But I thought there was a robber, bank robber I couldn’t get up.
My mind went back to the day I was in Korea when I got shot up (talking in background). My mind went back. I never had a gun in my face in my time ya’ know. And I thought______and I hit the ground if they’re firing well I was looking for a weapon, but I couldn’t find one. So anyway, they made a big to -do out of it! Then a lot of people, got a laugh out of it and had a great time readin’ about it, and I had people in the courts up here.[Pete Foster][local business man-deceased] you remember him. You remember Pete Foster? (addressing interviewer’s mother) His wife Peggy was in that Court. LD Hodges, he was in the court. Everybody___ might Alexander 27 have been sittin in there Bill Alexander sad” What all y’all doin in here? ”They said, “We’re making sure you’re not gonna put him in jail. “ Like we had a big time over it! But them days are over (slamming of door in background) The ole mountain people are all gone (slamming of door) and I’m tellin these things. You think I’m lyin’. I don’t (slamming of door) tell you nothing. I’m doin’ and see.(Door slams)
AA:(15:34) How old are you? Oh uh, how old were you?
CL: How old was I then?
AA: Yea, when you got arrested?
CL: 86,85! (laughter) Now I’m 87!
AA+ group: Wow!
CL: Never had a ticket in my life, never been to court.
AA: Ever?
CL: I had friends who were doctors, lawyers. I had doctors who drank a little brandy at
Christmas but I don’t think Dr. Hagy ever got any. Dr. Dudley got him a little bottle, Dr. Wolfe and the judge got a little but I didn’t go over and give it to the judge. I had a good lawyer and Alexander 28 he’d give it out. I got caught one time down in the town with a hundred gallons mashed brandy.
Fellow Woody from up in Wirtz worked for town police. Hugh Cundiff was there from
Revenue______+ something real estate taxes, poured it out. Hugh built this place
(indicating Dairy Queen). He built this building Hugh Cundiff did. And he bought 3 cases of whiskey behind Angle’s Market for Christmas. I poured them out and Mark Woody came driving by and I handed him a case. He went down in the basement and Mark put me under arrest. And he come up said “ Mr. Love what you got a case of? “ Oh whiskey. It’s your
Christmas brandy, Mark .”and Mark said, “Oh I didn’t know that!” (laughter) So that’s how we operated. We had no enemies. We had a lot of fun at it. Made a lot of friends.
AA: Ok. My next question is how is moonshine made? How do you make it?
CL: Well it’s that a few thoughts on how you make it, you know. (coughing) You got to get out there and get the outfit set up and go on back in the mountain where no one lives_____+ and get up and get your grain, your corn, your malt, your mill, your rye, ever what you needed. You had to cook that stuff, you couldn’t cook it like on a stove. You had to cook it in a big wooden box and boiler, scald it in boiling water and that is what cooked it you know. Got it all worked out that to cook it down to a temperature about 98 degrees or 88 whatever and it’s 3 days it was and it sets there so it could ferment. Worked 3 days and then you worked it so you could get ready to make the alcohol out of it. Make alcohol, bootleg, moonshine get ready to and what.___+ You had to line up people who had been there and done it.______How do you know how to proof it after you done it all of that? It’s like writin’. When you go to school, your momma wants to learn how to write. You go to school and you still don it know how to write, not as good as some of Alexander 29 the rest of ‘em. (laughter) But as long as you have common sense, I don’t care what you do. We had a lot of fun and my mother’s and dad, she got married in 1913, they had no money. Weren’t nobody had no money. One of the few old ones down there. My mother, when they got married, lived with his mother. My dad when he first…. he lived in West VA. and worked in the coal mines and married a lady from West. VA and bought a 90 acre tract of land and put a little wooden house weatherboard, a little farm. We still own it. Dad ______+ he said,” I’m not gonna stay here. I’m goin’ on back to West Virginia”, and he was either gonna leave her or go with her so my dad says,” I’ll sell you this lot 90 acres of land for $300.”
AA: Wow!
CL: That was a lot of money in them days!
AA: Yea.
CL: She asked my daddy “ I ain’t gonna pay for it.” But anyway he had a little cooper still a little bitty____. Oh he made 30-40 gallons most time like that it’d be Fall, but these 2 men came out of Martinsville and they asked him about filling 2 bottles of whiskey up. They’d give $1000 if he’d fill up two 50gallon barrels up full of whiskey (laughter or sneezing) $1000!
AA: (20:05) Wow!
Alexander 30
CL: So he goes down to the old man down on Jessup Creek [Place in Franklin County] he always longed to make a little money. He told my dad… My dad told him,” I want $300”. He said “Yea ,I’ll let you have it. But you got to have 10 people sign the note. 10 co- signers.” So he had to go around and get people to sign the note and come back. These 2 people are from
Martinsville (coughing) ______+ bottles of whiskey. So he had laid the money on the table and my mother… The living room was about as big as this (indicates size with hands) the money covered the whole floor! In $5s and 10s. So my daddy went back and paid the old man off. He said, “, “you ain’t supposed to pay that off. You got a monthly payment. ”He said, “I want to pay it off”!______“Why do you want to know?” The old man said, “ How’d you’d get that money that fast? “ (Recording interrupted)
CL: Did it go off?
AA: No I don’t think so. (background noise) Another question I want to know is what’s the most popular moonshine made?
CL: The most popular?
AA: The most popular.
CL: Well Most all the people in my part of the country cause they’re made out of peach brandy, cherry brandy, Grape brandy (beeping noise), corn whiskey, but most of ‘em was corn whiskey because that’s what the old people were raised with: corn. They didn’t use..they didn’t sugar much back in them days. Pure corn whiskey. That’s what they sold for $10 a gallon. 100 gallons Alexander 31 would bring you $1000 or you could be broke in a week______+ (beeping) $5 dollars and you go down get a case (door slamming) and come back with $100 in your pocket. You and come back with $100 in your pocket. You could make money at it. But none of them people left today though. Always_____. Over 100 whiskey haulers in Franklin County, you take the (talking in background) ______+. His sister was in that business hauling whiskey from over here. (laughter)
They all had a connection. You go over here and these big ole white houses up in town here real wood houses(?). Those houses were built in the bootleggin’ times. Today people will say “Where did you get “bootlegger”? Well the moonshiners, before my daddy was born in 1892, they called it moonshine because they travelled at night in the shine of the moon.
AA: Ah!
CL: They didn’t have light. That’s the reason they named it moonshine. So then what the men pour in the bucket some of them drank a lot and some bootleggers drank a lot and had what they called d. t’s. That’s what you called them and they’d go crazy (beeping) and the judge give ‘em time- 3 years. (beeping and slamming of door) till they dry out for a while then they_____+ I seem them that man…. What are you gonna do about it? He had pints of whiskey taped to his leg.
AA: Oh my.
CL: He said,” Don it take it away.” _____+ And that’s the reason they named it bootlegging.
Alexander 32
AA: Ohhh!
CL: He had 2 pints of Whiskey taped to his leg and that’s bootlegging.
AA: (laughter)
CL: Another thing ya’ll probably learned about.
AA: That’s creative (door shuts) And another question I was wondering, how did people purchase moonshine since it was illegal?
CL: Do what?
AA: How do people purchase moonshine since it was illegal? How do they get it?
CL: You mean now?
AA: Yea or like yea...
CL: Well, they got the legal; they’re making the legal right there in town. You can buy it at the store, but when I was doing it every one knew each other. You had a whiskey haul to
Martinsville, Danville, wherever. You had a deal with them. You’d take all the whiskey you’d make. You make 100 cases of whiskey, you’d get 100 cases of whiskey (beeping) Deals made Alexander 33 and he’d pay you for every load in____ I’ve been a million times to go to Danville or
Martinsville or Cascades. ______$15- 20,000 dollars and come back with $20,000 in a paper bag. But they was honest. They done what they told you and their wives. all of them were married. Their wives knew everything that went on. (Background AA: Ok we’ll get back to that)
CL: (25:00) (sees a picture of a still) now that’s a distillery that’s for I was never around, low grade whiskey. That’s dangerous, that type. Them’s old black pots. They put ‘em all and they spinned them things and never cleaned’ em out.
AA: Never?
CL: Never washed them out. That had all kinds of acid in them. That’s dangerous, but you could make a lot of it.
AA: How much moonshine could you make? Like in a day?
CL: Well ______+ I could produce 600 gallons per day. 600 gallons.
AA: Oh my goodness.
CL: That’s a lot of whiskey. Most of ‘em run 90 gallons a day. Most of ‘em run 90 gallons a day,
15-20 cases a day. If you could run 100 cases a day that’s 600 and it took a lot of work to do all that! We stayed in them woods though. We built us a little ___ in the woods and stayed there Alexander 34 night and day. We didn’t leave it. Long cooking on the whiskey still. Cooked the beans, potatoes, anything you wanted to (beeping) cook up. ____ + They knew whose plates those were cause there was plenty to eat. (laughter)
AA: How did you hide your stills from being found? From the law?
CL: Well, you tried to get yourself a place back in the mountains, deep holler, with lots of ivy, bushes, whatever. You tried to keep it covered good, you know. You put sheds up ___ +
(background talking) Them old days had the holler hide them. Most all the people that makes some of them seen them paid them to tell them where they’d seen them and they got the information you know.
AA: How’d you transport your moonshine? Like how’d you deliver it to someone? How’d you do it?
CL: Well we had different type cars, different cars. Buicks, Chryslers, __+ (door slam) sometimes it’d take 25 days to carry it down to Miami. I owe one man 2000 cases, 2000!
AA: 2000???
CL: Over a period of 10 years.
AA: Wow, that’s a lot! Alexander 35
CL: Yea, every night, every night we’d start about 4:00 in the evening with a load go thru
Martinsville, Sydnorsville, Martinsville. I tried to get to the Dupont factory, Bassett where all the furniture people are and I waited to get in that big line of traffic, you know and you’re going down there by yourself and the state troopers he gonna kill ya riding with those people, drank a co-cola. Trooper Mike didn’t prevent me from goin’ on down the road (laughing). You had to take friends with you.
AA: They had friends with them?
CL: Some people said they’d go crazy____+ I didn’t do it.
AA: Did you ever give money to law enforcement?
CL: No, I never did. One of ‘em asked me and ___ he done waited too late ____+ but I didn’t know it you know. Oh we had friends (beeping in background). We’d give ‘em firewood. They’d come around and get wood. We didn’t charge ‘em nothin’ (background noise)___+ We’d give them a favor you know.
AA: Ok. Can moonshining be a violent business? Is it violent?
CL: Well years ago people a lot of people in Endicott [area in Franklin County], it were Shootin
Creek, Running Bag, all Floyd [county]. Moonshiners would fall out with each other. They’d kill Alexander 36 someone,ya know .In the Ferrum/Endicott someone would get killed every month up bootleggers. One time there was a grudge against a man who told on this one, you know.
Someone was always tellin’ on somebody and they’d find out about it and go kill’em. Tattlin’ and all that..You wouldn’t be involved in that. We didn’t have much of ….my dad over there where we grew up, his uncle___+ everyday you’d see him and had a ____strapped on like John
Wayne, an ole bow tie and a black hat (laughter). They believed in shootin’ people it if you mistreated ‘em. They had a shootout in Bedford [VA]. My uncle and all of ‘em.___ a man and got to shootin and they said there was a woman down there, but ___they got to shootin and my dad’s first cousin killed one of them and one of his boys shot him and killed him. It was a shootout!
AA:(30:45) Shootout, Wow!
CL: I talked to his wife before she died. I even went to see her. They’d get mad and shoot the bedknobs off the bed. You know the knobs, the wooden knobs. He’d get mad and shoot those wooden knobs off while she laid in bed.
AA: Wow, that’s insane!
(Interruption by patron: “You’re a hero right there buddy!”
CL: Do what?
Patron: “You’re a hero!” (Shakes CL’s hand) Alexander 37
CL: You know all these people? (Laughter)
Patron: No, I don’t, but I know you!
CL: You know Dr. Hagy?
Patron: This his family?
CL: That’s his daughter right there.
Patron: My mother ran the Longview restaurant for a long, long time. (Background “yea I love that place!”
CL: Say they’re tryin to get a little write up about the moonshinin’ business, about my life history and what not.
Patron: You better have a lot of paper and a big book.
(Background: “Yes she does. We’re recording here.”)
Patron: Just laugh at a lot of his stories. They’re true but they’re so funny. It’s part of life..part of life. (“It is, it is-background patron.) Have a nice New Year!
Alexander 38
CL: I’ll tell you about my little outfit but first I’ll tell you ___. I had an older brother who never married never (door slams) and he had someone buy him a brand new truck to carry him around in and my mother gave him a life time home, never had a kid, never had a car, never went anywhere ____but anyways he had an old mountain bear we called him Bear. He would put bacon in the plate for him. Well, my older brother died so I go up there with my truck and the little bear would be walking behind and I go to this little place and sit down (beeping and noise) the bear would come out and balance on his haunches or whatever. He didn’t talk to ya. He’d stand there and look at you. I’d say “Don’t get no closer!” and then he’d leave. One mornin’ I went down there ____+ and I heard “Woo, Woo!” I told that boy of mine…
“Hey” (Addressing patron)
CL: I don’t know if he was drunk or if he had the stomachache. He’d gotten into half a barrel of my apples; half a barrel. The day they did the raid, he had been there before. The officers came and I talked to them. He went on down into the woods (door slamming)___He probably would’ve set on both of them because he would’ve gotten in between us; you know. (Door slamming) +______Anyways, same time I was sittin’ on an ole stool and I looked up and I looked at the sky and asked the good Lord if I was doin’ wrong and should I put a stop to it and that’s about the time the man said “Put your hands up”. He acted pretty quick on me. My mother said the Lord would forgive you___+ I said that’s how fast He acted on me.By the way they acted, I may have gotten some of that brandy. But anyway, we had a lot of fun. Old Bear got scared for 3-4 months and we didn’t see him. We thought he might have gotten killed by that blast, but he’s back over there now. I’ll go down there and he’ll come behind me +____ kind of Alexander 39 like a pet. I’m kind of like Grizzly Adams of T.V. Remember ole Grizzly Adams? I made pets of everything: squirrels, birds, hawks, chickens (laughs) There was a squirrel out there he’d come out to the house. I’d give him anything to eat and if I didn’t crack it for him, he’d bring it back and put it back at my feet. That’s a squirrel. ___I said “What’s wrong with ya?” ___He was tickled to death if I cracked that walnut. He’d bring it back every time I put it out there unless I put a hammer to it (laughter) So I learned ‘em . trained ‘em. like a dog, you beat ‘em and they’s bite you. You pet’em, you break’em ____+ (door slamming).
AA: Ok, how do you tell moonshine is safe to drink?
CL: Well, I don’t really. It’s hard but you can tell by looking at it. It’s nice, scrubbed, got a crystal bead on it, take the top off of it and the smell, but you know, its….lotta people. If the old mountain bootleggers sell you somethin’ gotta bring you a sample___+. Some of these people don’t pay no attention __+ put fluoride or whatever they want in it. But if you’ve got those old mountain people kind of like a restaurant they’d put a meal (door slams) they’d put a meal out there that you could eat. You know a good restaurant, they’re gonna put good food out there. A good bootlegger, he’s gonna (door slam) have a good whiskey. You’re like get anything off of him. (Slapping sound)
AA: Ok. What obstacles did you face while moonshining?
CL: What options?
Alexander 40
AA: Obstacles.
CL: Probably the weather: snow, sleet, rain,____water’d come up ____+ came right through ’em
___+lot of ‘em waves(? )We had a lot of things: freeze fallin’, ice (slamming door) storms.
You’d get out in the woods and with the ice storms, limbs fallin’ and breakin’ on ya. It was a rough life, but we lived in the woods and were used to it. You survived. You learned everything you could eat out of them woods. We used to live for weeks in the woods on stuff. You could eat any type vines, grapes, or fruits. Peanuts, wild peanuts grow in the woods. You could get ‘em out, and roast ‘em and eat ‘em. But nobody knows that today. We could survive in the woods on pears, peanuts, paw paws and stuff we knew was good. Stuff you knew you couldn’t eat, you didn’t fool with. (door slamming)
AA: How much…did. How much moonshine have you made in your whole lifetime?
CL: Oh, I wouldn’t have the least idea. I guess (laughter and talking in background) Thousands and thousands of gallons for 30-40 years. Lost a lot of it and made a lot of money. But I didn’t know you were supposed to keep the money, I thought you were supposed to spend it. Buy some land for $3 an acre back in them days, but I’d go around in my vehicle. Fast cars, big rolls of money. I had to gamble, I had to go running around and blow the money.
AA: Oh wow (laughing)
CL: Didn’t think you were supposed to keep it!(laughter)
Alexander 41
AA: How much do you sell your moonshine for?
CL: Well back when I first started $50 per case that’s 6 gallons that’s what it sold for then and then it kept going up over the years. Now if you got it any good which I know some of the few people with stills ___+ $40 they sellin them for $300 that’s how the time has changed per case for apple brandy. You go to West Virginia out of the coal mines ____+ brandy making and they charge you for $50 (door slamming) a quart for apple brandy in West Virginia. That’s $100 and a half for a gallon. That’s $600 for a case. And people were buyin’ it.
AA: Wow!
CL: So them in the mines are makin more money than in the coal business. So they’re out of coal mining and now they’re bootleggin’. But when you’re bootlegging (coughing) you can make ‘bout what you want.
AA (40:06): And what do you think about the legalization of moonshining today?
CL : Well, if you went back to the days, I mean every generation of bootleggers, they’re all together different ____ take over distilleries and they dump it ____+ they been grindin up over old barrels. You can’t do that. You got to get the best grade corn meal you can get. Called white corn, not this hybrid corn. Get it ground real fine, get the barley malt, rye and get all that grain.
You got to put that in a big mash box barrel or whatever you’re usin, you got to use scaldin hot water. Say you’re gonna put 4 bushels of meal all in that bucket takes 8 #2 __ you know the big Alexander 42 tubs, 8 tubs of that water to go there and cook that meal and then you got to get big bags for ‘em.
___+ like makin good cornbread. You can’t make good cornbread unless you get all the cornmeal out of it. And you do all that and it’s a lot of work. You get hot weather and I mean that’s a real rough job. It won’t be cool down. You gotta have a temperature. You cannot put that stuff in it if you don’t have the right temperature to do it. It can’t be too hot or too cold. You gotta know what temperature to leave it at.. It’ll sour and what temperature you leave it at. It’s a lot of understanding to it. I cant’ tell you how to do it unless I carried you down (beeping, door slams) and you’d say “Its too rough for me!’ Like a woman came to me the other day and asked me about ….I always cooked. I learned how to cook from my mother from watching her, you know. Cooked salads, lima beans, _____, pinto beans, corn bread so I’d lay them out at the end of the week. I think I can cook a kettle of salad (laughter)! “So can you tell me how you can cook it?” Yea, I can tell ya. First thing, you got to go pick it, then you got to wash it 3 or 4 times, then you got to grate it then you take on and boil it, drain the water, then put it back in the boiler”.
“Do you know how long it’ll take?” Well I’m talking about 5 hours. “I thought it’d be about 30 minutes.” I said..” No, you aint gonna do it in 30 minutes.” That’s how the old people do it. You can’t make good whiskey in 4 hours, 2 hours. We be up about 2 weeks before we had good whiskey. Just to get everything set up. We to line up, set it up right. It’s a lot of work but we enjoyed it.
AA: Why are you called “King of Moonshiners”?
CL: Well, that’s Morris Stephenson [newspaper reporter]. I was in it with the big wheels and the little wheels. I got acquaintanced with all the people from Florida to Kentucky. I dealt with Alexander 43 people out of Kentucky, I dealt with Washington, Maryland, and I knew everybody just about in the business. Florida, Kentucky. Dealt with them, I mean, so I told a bunch of the people about making whiskey, how to do it. _____ from North Carolina he got into it. Popcorn Sutton on TV,
Wendell Scott, the race car driver from Danville, grew up with that crowd. I’m glad several generations…
AA: Ok…and here I want to show you a picture. And I want you to tell me what you think of this picture.
CL: Do what?
AA: What do you think of that picture?
CL: I don’t know what kind of ____+. I ain’t in that picture.
AA: No, no, no! It’s not of you (beeping). It’s a picture of law enforcement destroying a still. Alexander 44
CL: ____ a barrel. He’s got an axe. Well, they didn’t use that when they come up there. You’d have to be crazy. They used dynamite.
AA: Dynamite?
CL: Yea! They would come with 30-40 sticks of dynamite on the mash box, barrels. They blew half the country down, but now they got a chemical that don’t make a big explosion. Them old barrels, them old black barrels, you can it cut them things with an axe no way.
AA: Can you tell me about Operation Lighting Strike?
CL: What?
AA: Operation Lighting Strike? It was a moonshine raid in Franklin County.
CL: What? (45:00)
AA: It was a moonshine raid in Franklin County.
CL: Oh you mean… raid
AA: Operation Lighting Strike. Alexander 45
CL: That’s when they came in here and changed everything. Dr. Hagy knew when it was. They sold all the bottles, materials, and cans.______a big deal. Worked on it for years and then they made a raid on a restaurant and the______boys and ______and all of them they about broke up the whiskey business up and all of it. They took houses, took the money, the bank came and took the money. The bank came and took the money which I could never figure that out ,I mean. But the government of the State can do anything. They took the bank____+ had about $500,00. They took that. Nobody knows where it went. All these state investigators that took it , they were worse than the bootleggers were. But they could do anything, see? Take your money and do what they want. Raphael and Scott____+ took his house and land and put his wife and kids out in the holler, No house to live in. So in my book, that’s a bad thing. Not all the bootleggers were like that when we grew up. They might catch you and tell you when to come to court and drop the ladies off, but they didn’t mistreat you (beeping), but now___+ they treat you like out laws. The old people would shake your hand and talk to ya (beeping). They would catch you know. It’s all because it was different days. It’s like doctor. You ain’t got no doctors like Dr.
Hagy or Dr. Wolfe or Dr. Collie, them ole doctors. Now you got one that’s all together different.
They used to spend time with you, talking to you. Like Dr. Hagy said,You can tell more about a man when you talk to him than____+ than you can talking to him. Dr. Collie said to me, “
What’d you come up here for or? “____+ cut my arm. He said, “ You look fine. What’d you come up here for? What’d you come see me for? “ I’d spend 5 weeks up in the doctor’s office.
That’s when he was working in Wolfe Medical Group.
Alexander 46
AA: When people say Franklin County is the “ Moonshine Capitol of the World”, do you agree with this statement?
CL: It was at the time. Kentucky was pretty good and Ohip, but this was, this was outrageous_____+ part of it was Franklin and Pittsylvania County. Blue Thunder(? )was more or less had the same kind. Bootlegging on every corner! _____ from Ferrum College down 40___+ late on in the night there’d be an average of every 5 cars come down Ferrum, every 4 of them loaded with whiskey.____+ and for years that’s the way it run. It wasn’t much street travel in automobiles.____+ state troppers. Down on’ 40’s, we only had one State trooper here, 3 deputies, no ABC officers. The bootleggers had to spread it all out, they had to move it out of there.____+ pitiful how they’ve treated a lot of people, isn’t it? Well some ABC officers came in and beat some people up in____+ put them away. A lot of them old WWII veterans come back and don’t understand. They been overseas, Japan and they got mistreated and they come back and got to drinking and got to making whiskey, officers raid’ em and beat them with black jacks or whatever. You know ole fellas already been punished.
AA: How many moonshiners are in Franklin County? That you’re friends with? (radio playing)
CL: Now? Well I guess I can’t name ‘em because most of ‘em…. Boggs, Seymours, Ramseys,
Sneads, Radfords, I can name over a thousand still______+ I grew up with the older generation.
The Seymours, the Sneads, the Corns, the Ramseys, I can keep namin’ them up in Ferrum,
Endicott…. Bowlings, Shivelys, Quinns, Everybody was involved, (door slams) I mean you know, somewhat. I had a lady over in Briar Mountain, where I lived, she was getting’ whiskey Alexander 47
______+ getting’ barrels of cider ( talking in background) brought it from one of my brothers who was makin’ it and she came down the path way. She had a basket on her arm. She took some biscuits out of that basket.______+ She’d get money out of it y, you see. There was money involved
AA: (51:20) Money….
CL: We’re getting’ about out of time.here, Doc (addressing patron)
AA: Ok…. Would you change anything about moonshining?
CL: If I had to go back, I probably would live the same life I did. I know what that was. I know the goods days we had and the bad ones (background noise) If you tried to live in a different life, you don’t know what you’d be into. The wife when we first came back here and got married in
’51, I was in the business then. She said “ I’m gonna leave you if you don’t quit. “ I told her the other day I was gonna keep makin’ it. (laughter) I was just playin’ with her. You know we’ve been married, 61, I believe or 62 years.
AA: Wow! What’s your wife’s name?
CL: Geraldine. I got a daughter______+ up at Dupont. She goes up there and she’s free labor and I got a boy. She never gave him as much as she did…. never gave her as much as she did the boy.______+ talkin’ and help him out. That’s fine (beeping nosie). I used to cook at home, but Alexander 48 now she won’t let me cook no more. She’s afraid I’ll turn on the boilin’ water and get scalded. I get to staggerin’ you know (beeping noise). I can’t stand up too good. But it’s like your mother, she wants me to learn her how to cook cornbread. You know she wants to make that thin cornbread. Real thin.
AA: Is there anything I missed that would help me better understand moonshining?
CL: (beeping in background) Well, it’s like______+ what kind of water you want, what kind of water is in the woods (door slams) and you can make good whiskey. It’s all in the water. You can’t use river water or water from here in town. You got to go up in the hills ____+ springs comin ‘up from in the ground, The water’s white, I mean the rock ‘s white and the water’s clear.
You can dip yourself up some and drink it. That’s where you wanna go and it’s twice during the year that you should make better whiskey or brandy
; Fall of the year and Spring of the year. Leaves fall and they fall. Its got a certain kind of chemical in it and it builds up in the water. When the buds start budding out, water gets better so its twice a year (beeping) That you make better whiskey and brandy but people don’t understand that. They all go down here and get their water from Coles Creek [Community in Franklin Co].
Well that’s comin’ from farms and has fertilizer in it. You’ve got to ______+ (talking in background)___+ from State Street. He’s getting’ city water. Well you can’t use that city water unless you ____ in it to drink it. If you got that flavor in that brandy or whiskey, that’s not a good taste (door slams). So I look at a jar of whiskey and I can tell ____+ I’ve never drank none in my life!
Alexander 49
AA: You never drank moonshine? Not once?
CL: Well I always sampled it.
AA: You sampled it.
CL: ___+ if I made good brandy whiskey, I did like my mother cooked,____+ I’d take a little bowl ( door slams) ___+ I’m not puttin’ my mother’s name. “ They read that article and they said, “ That’s just great about my mother’s cooking. ”It’s all learnin’ and an education for anyone learnin’ how to do it (chairs scaping) Can’t just pick it up over night. Even in 25 years you can still learn somethin’!
AA: My last question is how did you know the revenuers were around your still?
CL: Well, that’s a good thing that a lot of people didn’t do that I did. We had a place up here in town called Joe’s Grocery store. They sold co-colas, different things, you know, But anyway officers met up _____+ and they had meetin’s. We was eyein ‘them especially the new ones.
Lookin’ at their shoes. What type shoes, how big a foot he had, if he walked slew footed or pigeon- toed and we watched all that and we went in the woods and we seen their tracks and we knew knew were somebody else’s. That is the reason I kept alert all the time. I could be driving down an old dirt road at 50 mile an hour and I could see a man’s tracks 50 feet from where I was at and I was ridin’ along. But I kept my eyes.______+ (door slamming)
Alexander 50
AA: Ok! Thank you so much for sharing your reflections with me.
CL: You can have this book. I fixed it all up for you too!
AA: Oh, I love this book! Thank you! There you are.
CL: Bout all of my life, ___+ I’ll tell you about an uncle I had he was like Andy Griffith. He was judge, squire, he was everything. Everything he told us we… He was King of the
Mountains! I went there in 1938 with my dad______+ the old man was a judge. He came out of a field. He had old raggedy clothes on ______+ tried someone in court. I seen him when he went in. He came out of there with a black hat and bowtie. I thought he was Satan. I wanted to run. A man who was raggedy and he came out like that! That ole man was somethin’. Everybody believed in him. It’d be nice if we had someone who was King of the Mountain today! My neighborhood was about 40 families and he was over everyone. (laughter)
CL: We got it all on paper today, Clyde! (Addressing patron)
[Interview ended at this point, when patron interrupted. Mr. Love was thanked for his time again.]
Alexander 51
Interview Analysis
History is the retelling of past and present events that are recorded through the writing of historians. The historian and his facts are key to each other because “the historian without his facts is rootless and futile; the facts without the historian are dead and meaningless” (Carr). The facts of past events are history no matter how they are interpreted. Carr sums up his definition of history as “ the continuous process of interaction between the historian and his facts, an unending dialogue between the present and the past” (Carr).
Oral history is the collection of historical information using sound recordings of interviews with people who have personal knowledge of past events. Ritchie defines oral history as “ memories and personal commentaries of historical significance through recorded interviews”(Richie 3). After the interview is recorded, the recordings are organized and put in a library to be used for research or other forms of presentation. Oral history is different because you are interviewing people who actually lived through the event. Oral history may also be biased as it is told from one person’s point of view. Ritchie claims that many experts consider oral history “ too subjective, shoddy memories told from a biased point of view” (Ritchie 5).
There also may be information left out if the interviewee does not know the information. If an interviewee’s memory is not as sharp as it once was, this may also play a role in inaccurate information. It, however, does give an up close and personal look at the era you are researching and you may learn new details about the event that you may not find in a textbook. Oral history has true value in that it’s the first person observations of past and present events. Alexander 52
My oral history interview was of Mr. Cecil Love. Interviewing Mr. Love, a moonshiner from Franklin County, Virginia gave me a very good look at Prohibition, which was a period of time in the United States which banned the sale of alcohol from 1920 to 1933 and a little about the Korean War. Mr. Love was asked how Prohibition affected him and his family. He was honest and replied that he was too young to really know since he was 5 years old when
Prohibition ended. He did say however “ trying to make a living in Franklin County was tough.
There were no jobs… dropped fertilizer all day for 50 cents, cut wood, anything to make a quarter at… “ It was tough!” His father had 12 kids to take care of during this time. The
Prohibition was a major reason moonshining became a big business. People were poor and needed money. This was one way that they could make a lot of money. It continued even after
Prohibition ended. It became illegal mainly because moonshiners weren’t paying any taxes on the moonshine they sold. The other historical reference that Mr. Love made in this interview was discussing his brief tour in the Korean War in 1952-1953. He was 23 years old. He had already had a brother and 2 cousins killed in World War II. He discussed the Korean War briefly saying,
“ I almost got killed over there. I got shot up over there. That’s the reason I can’t walk”. He also said that when he was arrested and the ABC officer drew their guns on him, “ My mind went back to the day I was in Korea when I got shot up”. He revealed that he was shot in the right leg and flown to Japan until he was able to get back to the U.S. He was awarded the Purple Heart.
He keeps it in his pick up truck and also has it displayed on his license plate.
There were several things in this interesting interview that surprised me. First was where the terms “moonshine” and bootlegger” came from. Mr. Love stated that “moonshine” was Alexander 53 named that before 1842. He said the men making it “travelled at night in the shine of the moon”.
They didn’t have light. That’s the reason it is called moonshine. “Bootleggers” referred to people hiding illegal “likker” by hiding it by taping pints of it to their legs.
Violence in the moonshining business isn’t nearly as common as I thought. When asked what the scariest part of moonshining was, I expected Mr. Love to answer with some sort of violent story. Instead, he answered, “ I wasn’t really scared except by hauling whiskey in these fast cars. “ If the cars were loaded with too much whiskey and the car was going too fast, they could flip over. He did tell a story about an uncle being involved in a shoot out so there was some violence, but not like television and movies make you believe it to be.
Another surprise: it has taken until December of 2015 to legalize moonshine in Franklin
County! The first legal moonshine, “ Franklin County’s Finest!” was sold at the ABC stores in
Rocky Mount on December 23, 2015. When asked about this, Mr. Love didn’t answer the question directly, but you could tell that he thinks it’s better made “his way”, the old timey way
“because it takes time to make.“ It’s too bad legalization didn’t happen in 2011 before Mr. Love got arrested at age 84 for running a still. He had been making moonshine since he was 13 years old and this was the first time he had ever been arrested. That was a big surprise!
Although Prohibition is mentioned briefly in the textbook, The United States: A Brief
Narrative History, it is a very small part of Mr. Love’s interview and the information can’t really be compared. In the textbook, they discuss Prohibition and its relationship to gangsters in the city. Mr. Love was a rural moonshiner and he was a small child when Prohibition ended.
Moonshining was definitely a bigger business during this time period. Alexander 54
The American Century Oral History Project is one of the largest in the country. There are approximately 1000 oral histories in the archives at St. Andrew’s. Out of those 1000 histories, there is not one other one about moonshining. When I researched my topic, there were only two oral histories that discussed Prohibition or moonshining, but very little information that I could use. I could not compare my to others.
Prohibition was a very important part of American history. It was a time of a lot of poverty because people were having a hard time finding jobs, both in the city and in rural areas.
People needed to find a way to make money to survive. Moonshining was one way to do this. It was important to see how Mr. Love helped his family survive. Reviewing my sources, there was some times when details did not match. One source would say “ Mr. Love was born in 1929,” but for our interview he told me 1928. Otherwise, all the research I did on moonshining matches up to all the information Mr. Love gave me when I interviewed him at Dairy Queen in Rocky
Mount, Virginia on December 29,2015.
The Oral History project was a very valuable one. There were a few things that I learned from this process. First of all, pick a subject who is interesting to you! Mr. Love was a very unique man with an interesting story to tell. I loved the fact that no one interviewed a moonshiner before. The hardest thing about my interview was understanding Mr. Love’s accent.
He had a thick country accent and I had to get my mother to help translate some of his words for me. I would tell the future historians to be aware of that but not let it stop you from choosing Alexander 55 certain subjects. I learned so much from Mr. Love and I would like to go back to discuss more about his experiences with him.
Alexander 56
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