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Scc Day 274 Transcript Dd 2020-10-02 COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER 158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN 01 OCTOBER 2020 DAY 274 22 Woodlands Drive Irene Woods, Centurion TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088 MOBILE: 066 513 1757 [email protected] CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER 158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN DATE OF HEARING: 01 OCTOBER 2020 TRANSCRIBERS: B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH Page 2 of 310 01 OCTOBER 2020 – DAY 274 PROCEEDINGS RESUME ON 1 OCTOBER 2020 CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Ms Hofmeyr, good morning everybody. ADV HOFMEYR: Good morning Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready? ADV HOFMEYR: We are indeed Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV HOFMEYR: If I may just indicate we have scheduled for today two witnesses. The first is Professor Mokgoro 10 who is currently the Premier of the North West Province and after him we will be receiving the evidence of Ms Mamela. Ms Mamela is a witness who is returning today she gave evidence originally in February. Professor Mokgoro has not given evidence previously. I would just like if I may to locate Professor Mokgoro’s evidence because it has been some time since we actually have received evidence in relation to the matters that we will be traversing with Professor Mokgoro today. 20 Chair you may recall back in the middle of 2018 in fact it was – sorry 2019 it was we received evidence in a session of the first aviation evidence about a contract that had been entered into between South African Express Airways and the North West Government and it related to certain routes that were going to be established between Page 3 of 310 01 OCTOBER 2020 – DAY 274 Cape Town and Johannesburg airports and then the Mafikeng and Pilanesberg airports. And we received evidence Ms Babadi Tlatsana who was one of the directors of a company Koroneka that had been appointed to as a management company in relation to these air services that were going to be provided to the North West Province. We also received the evidence Ms Phatudi who was the CFO at the relevant time in the Department of 10 Community, Safety and Transport Development and in the course of her evidence she made reference to the fact that the first payment that was made from the North West Government to South African Express Airways was a payment in the amount of R50 million and that had been authorised out of the Premier’s office by the then acting Director General and that was at the time Professor Mokgoro. So Professor Mokgoro provided us with a sworn statement in response to Ms Phatudi’s evidence and 20 subsequent to that a determination was made that it would useful to have him appear today he gave an undertaking and an offer at the end of his sworn statement to be available to the commission. And so we have taken him up on that offer and today we will be questioning him about matters related to Page 4 of 310 01 OCTOBER 2020 – DAY 274 that payment. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON: No thank you. ADV HOFMEYR: Chair if I may just ask for the lawyers for Prof Mokgoro to place themselves on record. CHAIRPERSON: To place themselves on record yes. They can do from where they are. ADV MOKOTE: Yes. Thank you very much Chairperson I am Mogera Mokote Advocate. With me I have my attorney Mr Mahlangu Nhlanhla, my pupil Ms Dipalisa Dukele and on 10 this ride she is not a legal representative but is a [00:03:21] spokesperson Mr Vuyiso Lengese. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you. Okay please administer the oath or affirmation. REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record. PROF MOKGORO: My name is Tebogo Job Mokgoro. REGISTRAR: Do you have any objections to taking the prescribed oath? PROF MOKGORO: Not at all. 20 REGISTRAR: Do you consider the oath to be binding on your conscience? PROF MOKGORO: Certainly, I do. REGISTRAR: Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth; the whole truth and nothing else but the truth; if so please raise your right hand and say, so help Page 5 of 310 01 OCTOBER 2020 – DAY 274 me God. PROF MOKGORO: So help me God. REGISTRAR: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much; you may be seated Mr Premier. PROF MOKGORO: Thank you. ADV HOFMEYR: Chair just in relation to logistics for today Professor Mokgoro’s two sworn statements have been placed in a file that we have numbered DD32. I 10 understand that we are entering them now for the purposes of a file number and then if I can just indicate what is contained in that file and Professor Mokgoro you should have a copy in front of you. PROF MOKGORO: What is the number? ADV HOFMEYR: It is – on the spine it is DD32. That is just the name of the file. But I – when I need to refer you to a particular page I will refer to the page number in the top right hand corner. Chair the file comprises the first sworn statement of Professor Mokgoro. That is a 20 statement which was deposed to on the 22 July 2019. It is followed by the annexures to that first sworn statement and you find that under Tab 2 in the file. Then under Tab 3 was the second sworn statement deposed to on the 17 September 2019 and its annexures. Just so that we can understand what had happened was Professor Mokgoro Page 6 of 310 01 OCTOBER 2020 – DAY 274 provided his fist sworn statement – there were certain documents that were missing from it. We requested that they be provided. The second sworn statement purports to provide them but as I will deal with in Ms – in Professor Mokgoro’s evidence there are actually still some documents outstanding but we will address that in the course of the evidence. And then the last document in the file is simply a 10 copy of the speech that the then Premier of the North West gave in the first session of Fifth Legislature in June 2014. That is a document that I will make reference to in the course of the evidence. And so those are the documents which comprise file DD32. If we may just enter the file name into the record and then I will make reference to the specific documents when we go to them if I may? CHAIRPERSON: Should we say it is Bundle DD32 and then various documents… 20 ADV HOFMEYR: Indeed. CHAIRPERSON: Will be Exhibit something. ADV HOFMEYR: Indeed. CHAIRPERSON: So that – so we will say it is Bundle DD32. ADV HOFMEYR: Correct Chair thank you. Page 7 of 310 01 OCTOBER 2020 – DAY 274 CHAIRPERSON: I am just changing here. ADV HOFMEYR: Right. CHAIRPERSON: On the spine. Bundle DD32 yes. And then with regard to the specific documents you will ask me to admit them as and when… ADV HOFMEYR: Indeed. CHAIRPERSON: We come to them. ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay. 10 ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you Chair we are indebted. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. ADV HOFMEYR: Professor Mokgoro if we could then commence. I understand that you are currently the Premier of the North West Province, is that correct? PROF MOKGORO: Yes that is correct Chair. ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. And what position did you hold in 2014/2015 period in the Province? PROF MOKGORO: I was the acting Director General in the office of the Premier. 20 ADV HOFMEYR: And when – can you recall what particular period that covered? When did you seize to be the acting DG in the office? PROF MOKGORO: I think it was sometime in 2015 once the Premier had appointed a substantive Director General. ADV HOFMEYR: But for the matters that we are concerned Page 8 of 310 01 OCTOBER 2020 – DAY 274 with today which take us up to March 2015 you were still the acting Director General, is that correct? PROF MOKGORO: That is correct. ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. And what qualifications do you hold Professor Mokgoro? PROF MOKGORO: I – I have a BSC Degree, an Honours Degree, a Master’s Degree and I am also an Honorary Doctorate. ADV HOFMEYR: Of which institution is that; that you hold 10 the Honorary Doctorate? PROF MOKGORO: Toledo University in Ohio in the United States. ADV HOFMEYR: And Professor Mokgoro when you were in the position of acting Director General within the office of the Premier you then held the position of Accounting Officer as that position is understood in the PFMA, is that correct? PROF MOKGORO: Yes that is true. Accounting Officer in the office of the Premier. 20 ADV HOFMEYR: in the office of the Premier. And did you have an understanding at the time of what the legal obligations were of the Accounting Officer under the PFMA? PROF MOKGORO: Yes certainly. During the first administration 2014 to – no 1994 up to 1999 I was the first Page 9 of 310 01 OCTOBER 2020 – DAY 274 Director General in the office of the Premier. ADV HOFMEYR: Right so from that far back. PROF MOKGORO: Yes. ADV HOFMEYR: You were familiar with the responsibilities. PROF MOKGORO: Yes.
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