[7 SEPEMBER, 1932.] 429 at a lower rate than obtains at pretl- ployees fire still contracting arsenical pois- eut. This would mean more business for th2, cifing and dermatitis, and suffering acutely coal mine,, more freight for the railway,. therefrom? 2, Bearing this in mind, will and would be of advantage all round. the Government have further investigations have plea~ure in Supporting the motion. made to see if anything else can be done 0 Oin motion bv Hon. *J. M. Macfarlane, (It- prevent the employees from contracting those lbate adjourned. afflictions, 3, If nothing further can be done, and the Government consider that hot~"-c Stjo urnd ot S..7 pa. everything flat could have been done has been done, will they give consideration to the advisability of introducing legislation to prevent the opera'ken of this plant? The MINISTER FOR HEALTH re- plied: 1, Yes. 2. The Commissioner of Public Hlealth is in close touch with the mana~a. mcdn in endeavouring to reduce the risk of arsenical poisoninz and dermlatitis to a mini- Wednesday, 7th September, 1932. mum. 3, This cannot be done.

PAC.. Qarstions 3fMining, Wilmna irmenic plant 420 Financial emsergeincy, ptnmloiis and overseas interest ...... 420 QUESTION-FINANCIAL EMER- Nortb.West ports, cargo coat...... 429 GENCY. U.pernee, -beat handling .. .. 430 Personal explanation :Mr. Withers and tle Runwsay Departmnto . . . . . 430 Pensions and Overseas Interest. Assent to Bill ...... 430 Address-in-reply, ninth day, condelulon .. .. 430 Mr. MAkRSHALL asked the Premier: Hills :Balk Hanndling of Wheat, leoae to introduce, i. a...... 487 Is it the intention of the Government to State Tradingc Concens Act Amendment, In. 493 Main Roads, Act Amendment, In...... 403 endeavour to convene another meeting of Road bleiricts Act Amendment. ... 493 State Premiers (a) to deal with the reduc- Factorles and Shops Act Amendment, It. .. 493 Special License (Waroona Irrigation District), Is. 493 tion or cessation of overseas interest until Mletropolitan Whole Ifil1k. Ia...... 403 Fruit Cas Act Amendment, 1R...... 493 such time as our own people are properly Lcd Dairy Cattle Imprnveinent Act Amendment, Is. 4044 and clothed: (h) to demand the abolition of Financial Emergency Act C'ontiosuance, 1R5... 494 Mntaes lhtsfi nestrietion Act Continuance, Federal control in departmental spheres 1I5...... 404 Constitution Acts Amendent Act (1931i). Con- where the various States could act on behalf tisa,Is...... 494 Farmers' Debts Adjustment Act Amendment, of the Federal Government, thus economnis- IR...... 404 ing and making it possible for the Federal Reduction of Dents Act, Continuance, Is. 494 East Perth Cemeteries, In...... 404 Government to pay more instead of less to Land Art Consolidxtion, IS...... 404 S .nn Land n Ietial...... 494 old age and invalid pensioners of the Com- Closed Bands Alienation. 1R...... 404 Public Service Appeal Hoard .4ct Amendment, monwealth? Is...... Criminal Code Ame~unent (N.t, 1).' ... 4044q4 The PREMIER replied: (a) The que3- tinina Code Armndment (No' 2), 1Is. .. 494 L.and ad Income Tax Ase,sment Further tion of a reduction in the interest rate has Amendment, Is...... 404 been discussed and is now receiving atten- Aged Sailors and Soldiers' Relief Fund, In... 404 Timbier Workers, IRa...... 494 tion at the hands of the Federal Govern- Tenants, Purchasrs, and Mortgsacrs nelief Act Atnsndinent. In...... *i01 ment; (b) the elimination of overlapping has been considered by both Federal and State Governments and is now being dealt with. The State Government exercises no The SPEAKEFR took the Chair at 4.31) p.m., and read prayers. control over the payment of old age and in- valid pensions.

QUESTION-MINING, WILUNA ARSENIC PLANT. QUESTION-NORTH-WEST PORTS, CARGO COSTS. Mr. 'MARSHALL asked the 'Minister for Health: 1, Is he aware that although thes Mr. COVERLEY asked the Minister for advice and recommendations of the Commis- Lands: For the year ended 30th June, sioner of Public Health are being enforced 1932. what was the average cost per ton on the arsenic plant at Wiluna, the em- for handling cargo at the following 480 [ASSEMBLY.] wharves or jetties respectively, calculating lajilwa ' Department was iii no way to casual labour only':-Carnarvon, Onslow, blame. So I wish to retract and apologise Cossack, Broome, Derby? to the department. The MTNISTER FOR LANDS replied: Carnarvon, Is. 0 ,d. per toil; Onslow, ASSENT TO BILL. Is. 7%4d. per ton; Cossack, lighterage port, Message from the Lieut.-Governor received cost not available; Broome, 2s. 5%/d. per notifying assent to the Supply Bill (No. 1), toii; Derby, Is. ld, per ton. £12,250,000.

QUESTION-ESPERANCE, WHEAT- ADDRESS-IN-REPLY. HANDLING. N inth Day-Conclusion. Mr,. NUL1SEN asked the Minister for Debate resumed from the previous day. Lanrds: 1. Is he aware that the British ship.. owner is not prepared to go to Esperane HON. W. D. JOHNSON (Guildford- for the rate of freighlt set out in the Ails- Midlarnd) [4.37]: Last evening the Minister trat Charter Party as one of any two port fur Railways defended the rights and priv- at which the vessel is to be loaded in West- ileges of members in regard to the Address- ern Australia, owing to its being declared in-reply. Hie rery properly pointed out that unsafe; the in iimum extra charge will be it was quite wrong to allege that the Ad- 2s. 6d. per toii, a ad the maximum amont dress-in-reply debate was a waste of time, of produce th t. can lie renmovedi is about or. thot members indulged in speeches for 15,500 tons in the one season? 2, Will he the purpose of westing time. He remarked give an assulrance that the farmers of th that it was virtually tile oniy opportunity malice will not be penalised the extra 2.' afforded to umember., to ventilate matters Od. or morne per to,,, and aliso that they will which they felt required ventilating, matters op public policy generally and Government not have to pay the extra that will be in- policy in particular. The Address-in-reply curred if the tonnage is too high to be re- debate gives mnembers an opportunity to deal ,moved in the one season by the British with all matters, and if members do not ship o wiers in a ceo ida nec with their avail themselves of that opportunity they1 warning? are then limited to questions brought down The MINISTER FOR LANDOS replied: by the Government; and subjects which they 1, The Harbour and Light Department is thiemselves bring forward by direct motion. not aware that British ship owners have Sc' once a Year it is the recognised right of declared the port of Esperance to be un- members to deal wvith all mlatters affecting safe, nor hats the Marine Underwriters' the general welfare of the State. It is sig- Association any knowledge of the maitter. nificant that none of the authorities on con- 2, Answered by 1. stitutional matters, the privileges of members and the general Parliamentary practice, attempts to define the extent of the Address- debate. The reason is, there is no PERSONAL EXPLANATION. in-rcpiy limit, that the Address-in-reply is a general Mr. Withers and the Railway Department. review. not limited either as to time or as to subject matter. So when wre read and MR. WITHERS (Bunbury) [4.341: 1 hear so nuchl from the critics of Parliament, wish to make a l)erson1l explanation. When it is just as well to make it clear that this speaking to the Address-in-reply I made a is tile one ocasioni when members have so statement connected with railway manage- wide all opportunity iii debate. There is one ment which I find was not quite true. It was matter T wish to have put right in "Han- in regard to the transport of a concert party sard." To leave it where it is at present to Bunutrv for the purpose of assisting the would be distinctly unfair to Prof. Fox of unemployed. I made the statement in alt the W.A. University. The professor de- good faith, for I thought nl 'y information livered an address to an organisation easo- was correct, but I see that the chairmnan of ciated with the Methlodist Church. Evi- the relief committee at Bunbury has witten dently the member for North Perth (Mr. J. to the Bunbn'y newspaper, stating that the Mac~alum Smith) took exception to the sub- [7 SEI'TMwsn, 1932.] 431 ject matter of thle address, for yesterday lie is uinlovelv anid antiliman. Jt gives a stand- ,asked the Premier certain questions as to ing invitatdion to the methods of 'push' and gi-ab. ' Because the main factor in industry the published report of the professor's ad.~ is Ma,,u, its justification is its contribution to dress. I regret to say that the Premier in his general welkeing, and its efficiency de- reply referred to 'violent views." He said, pends upon the evocation of his loy'alty to it." "It is undesirable that persons holding. viol- Professor Fox quoted from the 191a census ent views should direct the education of our figures which, lie said, showed that 90 per cent. University students." If we were to take of the income earners who furnished returns the question submitted by the member for in A ustralia received less than £200 a year Yorth Perth and the reply by the and that 77 per centt. of assets were held byv Premier, 9 per cent, of all the holders. ''These figures,;' without recording in 'Hansard" the views hie coat inued, ' can 1-c itatched by these ob- actually exilressed by the professor, we tainable fiom, other countries. 1low can it would, in the minds of readers of "Han- be said that a systeni which distributes its sard" in time to come, create quite a wrong products in this uneven war is to call forth ilupressicil. So in just ice to Prof. Fox I loyal support from the great maiss of those engaged in it-of the 910 per cent, Of Austra- propos e to read what he said, in order that lians ? There are other grounds upon which we shall have recorded exactly what the capitalism, far from evoking loyalty, arouses question and the answer related to. The supco and even contempt, to wit, the newspaper heading is, in my opinion, mis- methods of armanient firms and of soe news- leading. I do not know whether it was papers aid banks.'' ]laviug demonstrated how the Nfarxian interpretatioins were misleading, Irritten by the professor himself or by somne- Professor Fox said that commun ismn need not one in the newspaper office, but when we mean a~luhte eqlualit v of status and rewards. read the address, we see that the headline is This was pierhaps the commonest of all mis- rnot in keeping with the contents of the undestandings. The present discontent with address. Here is the newspaper report of class distinction was ,,ot so much because that address- sonme persons had high status and rewards, but b eause the many had a degrading status and A Challenge of Commnnnismi. reward, and beca;use of a conviction that the differences (lid not correspond to differences in Professor Fox's Analysis. human capacity. There was plenty of evidence "Christ and Communism"' was the subject that high pay need not commuand the highest of anl address delivered hy Professor A. C. capacity. A communistic order Must not be Fox, of the University of Wvestern Australia, confused with anarchismi. It was commonly At thle Methodist Chur-ch Probationers ' and supposed th, with the removal of private em- Home M issioners' sev entlh annual convention plovers, a premium wvould be set on idleness at Wesle~y Church, Fremantle, an Tuesday. anld insolence. Commu~nisnm dlid not propose to A fter intimating- that hie was going to inter- remove masters in the sense of overseers and pret '"'Communism ' rat her widely, Professor controllers of work any more than a civil ser- F'ox slid tha t Communism receivedi its driving vice proposed to remove them. For the re- force mainly in reacting strongly against the calcitrant there would still be discipline, since present iequitable distribuition of prYoperty, it was not proposed] to abolish law and regula- and of consequent control over and benefit tioni. ITnrder the present systen there was no from industr y. It Ibelieved this was not, as thle guarantee that work would give more than a Conservatives affirmned, a reflection of the re. hare sufficiency, while under communism there lative mierits of thle owners, but rather of their was a legitiniate prospect that it would yield degree of power and( ruthlessness. 'More speci- ain amiple sufficiency. As compared with pre- ficnlv it said flint the present distribution was sent conditions there wiould be a surplus of c]lue to the operation of competition, aid that both time and money, and this doable surplus competition "'as open to severe criticism. Comn- might lie spent in obtaining the means of nmunism would Abolish competition for the living well and of giving time to their enjoy- capital whirlt controlled industry, by placing it input. Communnismn did not mean the abolition in the hands of the community. Monopolistic of personal property either in time or material. euterpriscs already showved some degree of abolition of competition, and these could be The only objection T have to the professor's Lake,, over )v ilhe community, and other morn- lecture is that lie is genmerous towards Coin- opolies ecatedI. Private monopolies, however, munismn as we know it to-day. H1e was deal- were defective because they were private; they Ing with the matter as, it is represented by represented power divorced from public re- sponsibihitv. A communistic monopoly was the University and University text-hooks, no0r power modlified by responsibility, or directed as it is r-epresen ted by the newspaphers, wh ich for the general good. interpret Conmmnismi so that the; can utilise ''It must be adlnitted," pursued Professor Pox, "~that there is much validity in this comn- so-called eonmnunistic utterances iii a speeial numnistic indictment and proposal. TIndividual. wa' in special circumstances. Conmmunmism isnmstands condemned for breeding much that iclosely associated with socialism. It is .432 432ASSEMBLY.]

-diffieult to distinguish between true Coin- take more notice of the fact that the world mnnisns and socialism. I have studied both. and the people of thle world arc being ex- I have been associated with the socialistic ploited by a section which possesses undue movemient all mx-. life. The Only differenice power, and that all those who lore humanity I canl see between the two is that communism and the rights of humanity should he en- -ainus at the control of property, as mentioned couraged and helped by thie churches to by the professor, by the whole community, bring about the necessary- reformn. The whereas socialism may inl sIpecial circum- member for North Perth is associated stances direct that it be controlled by sec- with banks. Possibly lho understands tions of the commnunlity in their interests;. mnore about banking tlhan I do, but Since I saw the headlines of this ]ecture, I possibly hie does not study the people's have looked op various dictioiiaries and welfa-e as much as I do. He has not the authorities to see if there be a great differ- same 0o)portolnit , to do it as I have, because ence between the two things but so far as I his time is Occupied iii other- dii-ections. Whenm canl learn there is little difference between a professor wvas loaned by the 'University to the two "imfThe eormninisni with which protect and assist in getting out the props- people are trying- to associate Professor Iganda of the banks, in order that their posi- Pox's lecture is the communism we read of tion might be strengthened, 110 protest was to-day. Socialism and communism ai-e made by the mnember for North Perth. It is Chistian doctrines. The conmunism we 1)0 given read of and understand to-day is not, hlow- quite right that protection should ever, altogether a Christian doctrine. The to the 9 per cent. of the community, bat it is communism preached, featured and used b.y' not right that any help should be afforrlnd the Press to-dav is more akin to anarchism the remainder- of thle community, which is be- than socialism and true conmnunism, It is iug exploited to the detriment of humanity. wrong for- thle P.1remier to interpret Pr ofessor It was finite sight th at Professor Fox-, Pox's lecture as being associated with violent should have gone to a church organisation views on communistic ambitions. He was to explain the injustice of it all. Good ser- dealing with thle question in such) a way that vice has been rendered by the professor. It stdnscould understand it. The Pi-emier is reasonalble that hie should be Applauded by would conve ,y the idea that the Professor those who share his v-iewvs, and it is also right was doing something that would injure the that our schools should devote some timie to students. I have children at the University, this kind of thing and less to propagating and would bie sorry if their education in this reg-ard were ne.-lected. All children should capitalistic ideas. My own children are au- understand the i-iglits of thle communlity in thorities on all matters relative to capitalism. rega rd to community production. They They are thoroughly educated along those should understand that the world is being lines fromi the moment they attend thle prim- exploited by false prophets, and that the ary schools, and they k-now all about the whole comunity' is not getting that just rights and privileges of prnoperty- They mi- share of distribution that was originally in- derstand 'te rights of banking institutions tended, and was practised in the early clay's to control currency. They are given les5sons of Christianity. The whole thing has got onl these subje cts. Very seldom, how'ever, do they receive any education concerning the out of joint. As the professor points out, the control is in the hands of 9 per cent., and rights of the people. I hope no limit will be 91 per- cent. aire subservient to the 9 per cent. put upon our lprofessors in the matter of The difficulties of the world are due to the educating University students in thle cause fact that p-ivate ownership and capitalism of humanity. During the debate fr-equent have, with the assistance of propaganda and references have beets wade to the depr-ession, the help of unfair laws and other privilegres, the financial situation and the economnic out- secured contr-ol, and are using that controJ look generally. I have been unable to gather to the detriment of mankind. I congratu- what the views of mnembers are upon the late the professor uponx his lecture and' effect of the economic situation and tie do- realisation of thle necessity for inculcating pression upon the Parliaments of Australia. that kind of education. I am, pleased to know Recently we have hear-d quite a lot regarding- lie w-eat to the churches to deliver his ad- the need for review of the comlStittioml Of dres -. Thle churt-hes to-day need a lot of Paliameata. We have heard something as to edtu-alion upon the subject. They should payment of members of Parliament, andl so) [7 SS.PTEmBER, 1932.] 4333 forth. But the quiestion is not one that can the next Assembly. Parliament is essenti- lie wholly reviewed by one Parliament of one ally a people's organisation. If we reduce State. The great question occupying the the power and the representation of theA mind of every thoughtful Australian elector people's organisation, we automatically in- to-day is whether Australia can continue to crease the power of those who exploit the maintain seven Parliamnents, equivalent to people. For instance, there are no pub tie about 13 Houses of Parliament; whether it organisations which are not anxious to in- i;- economically possible for 6,500,000 people fluence Parliament in one way or another. to1maintain all these parliamentary organisa- The Labour Party are anxious to increase tions. And the further question arises their representation and to use Parliament whether the time is not opportune for a gen- for the furtherance of their policy. The eral review of that niost uneeononical her- National Party work in the same direction. den, the financial load associated with the Country members are anxious for the politi- cal welfare of their maintenance of all these Parliamueuts. party. whether it is not time to take a serious flew The Minister for Lands: You believ; in of the economic effect of' the Australian par- nion-party gov'ernmaent, then? liamientary system. Undoubtedly, reform i Hon. W. D. JONSON: Take a football being forced upon us. That reform should club, even. In some measure sporting bodies he stnrlied carefully by hun. members-. We are at timies anxious to use Parliament for llave to ensure that any reformn which takes the furtherance of their particular 'welfare, place as a result of the economnic pressure A football club may want a Class A reserve beingv experienced shall be a, kind that wvill made available to it, to have the exclusive give the people greater control, instead of right of playing on it and using it for the less control. The tendency of the Press to- particular advantage of its members. Agri- cultural societies are anxious to influence day is to strengthen vested interests, to Parliament streng-then the control exercised by the 9 per so that railwvay freight for stock travelling to shows may be reduced. And cent. to whomn I have already referred-neg- so on ;one could multiply similar illustra- leetiug, or reducing, or' minimising thle power tions. Organisations formed for all kinds Of the mass of the community. For exam- of purposes are still all anxious more or pie, Cte resolution fathered by the llunburv' less to use Parliament for the benefit of those Municipal Council was enthusiastically dis- associated with the organisations There- tributed among, and in some eases enthus- fore, just as Parliament is weakened, the insticalir received by, various local govern- strengthi of those who try to use Parliament ing lbodies. Somec local governing bodies, is increased. The more representative a Par- realising that the mnatter was beyond their lianment is, the more it can give representa- seol)C, appreciating that their organisation tion to the body of People within a given represented only a section of the community-, area, and can take into consideration the the rate-paying section, decided-and in My physical possibility of a given area being represented by one member, the more we do opinion very wisely-to take no action -but towards distributing representation so ais to the fact remains that numerous local govern- mnake Parliament a true reflex of the opinions ing- bodies agreed that some curtailment in the of the people, the more do we strengthen that number of members oC Parliament, or somec Parliament, the more do we at the same reduction of parliaiueintary salaries, or somec time weaken the organisations that try to re-organisation or reform. of our own State use Parliament. But if we do the reverse, We Parliament, must take place. I wish to weaken Parliament, and arrive at a position point out that the Parliaments of Australia even more vicious than that existing to-day, arc really the only people's organisationa that as outlined in the lecture of Professo' we have. Let us deal with our own Parliament Fox. I declare emp~hatically that I am in p~articullar. This Assembly is the people's not prepared to reduce in any way tbe organisation. It is created on a basis of efficiency of Parliament and the representat- absolute equality of opiportunity; evryod tion of the people as9 existing to-day. Those votes in the same way, and everybody is things have been reviewed on various occa- brought down or raised to the same level. sions, and the conclusion has been reached After every third year the citizens of that in view of the enormnous areas members adult age are called upon to mnark ballot have to represent, in view of the gigantic papers and thuls decide the constitution of extent of the State and the widely-scattered [171 434 [ASSEMBLY.] nature of its population, it is not possible of this have been placed onl record by to have a truly representative Assembly with various members, but I want to draw atten- mtsmaller number of members than the pre- tion to the State's submission to the inroads sent. Ag-ain, there is the question of redue- grradually being maide onl State powvers by ing the payment to members. My own view the Federal Government. I know perfectly is that the payment now obtaining is alto- wvell that members are influenced by party gether too small. If we reduce a member's considerations; one can never get away from income below tile capacity to maintain him- that position. self and his family decently, we again limit The Minister for Lands: You except your- the number of'persons available as parlia- self, of course. mentary representatives. In that way we Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: If Mr. Seullin might exclude some of the most caipable had done what Mr. Lyons has been doing of members. It is possible that some members recent times in connection with State Con- are experiencing difficulties to-day. I can stitutions and State rights, the hon. member quite appreciate that, having regard to the interjecting would be loud in his prlotests; expenses associated with parliamentary but because it is done by Mr. Lyons, of duties, there may even now be difficulty iii course it has a different aslpect. The Min- maintaining the position of a member of ister might not like it, but his protest would Parliament in such a war as to command not be of that vigour which carries convic- respect from his constituents, in conduicting tion. I know Perfectly well that we are all oneself in such a way as to gain the respect more or less tarred wvith the same brush; of those who look to Parliament foT a lead that the political complexion of the Govern- in most matters. Therefore I am not one mient; doing certain things does influence uts of those whbo subscribe to any attack of to a certain extent. But, allowing for all that description. My view is thtat the only this, I ami still disappointed in regard to the reform which could' be made in this Par'- attitude of this State onl what I describe as lianient as now constituted, from a State anl aggression upon State rights by the p)oint of view, is to reduce, as I have already present Federal Government. In my opinion, emphasised, the rights and privileges of the members have been most inefficient in ex- P per, cent. wvho have a special Chamnber of posing p~revious extensions of centralised their own in the Legislative Council. On authority,. The silence of an allegedly fear- this matter I have been voicing my opinion less secession movement is most significant. for- time las .3O years, and I do not wish to That movement is supposed to be active in take up timne with it this afternoon. How- p)rotecting the tights of the State, and in ex- ever, members who bear in mind the rights tending the powers of the State. That miove- Of thle people must appireciate that it is mnt is supposed to be ultimiately desirous wrong to give a section of the community of bringing- Western Australia outside thle a special Chamber, with the special privi- centralised control altogether, leaving to this lege of interfering with thle rights of the State the full power of government within people. No Parliament should be consti- the State. When the Lyons Government toted so as to be otherwise than truly re- assailed the righits of the Nrew South Wales presentative of the people. Where there Parliament, assailed tile very Constitution of is a second Chamber representing vested New South Wales, I heard nothing from interests, gross injustice is being dlone, secessionists on the subject of that encroach- to the people, and it is not to be ex- - inent. ]in that instance wve see a definite pected that the people will be satis- move by the Government of the da 'y for the fied, v-ill discontinue expressing their purpose of p)reventing the State functioning opposition and discontent, while they as its Government desired. It is true that are represented in one House only, tile other the Premier of this State voiced a kind of House being representative inet-ely' of vested objection, but he took no active part in interests. While we have been speaking of assisting New South Wales aqgainst the en- wvhat we shoulld do from a State poi nt of eroachinent of the Federal Government. It view. the Federal Government have been most is onl record that Tasmania did take up the active in intensifyving their centralised con- cudgels onl behalf of New South WYales to trol. I think it cain fairlyv be said prevent the injustice being done, hblt here in that the present Federal Government Western Austr-alia, the only State in the hanve become aigg'resiive. and especi- Conmnouwealth that possesses anl organisa- ally so during recent months. Details tion w~ewere led to believe was ready to pro- [7 SEPTEMBEnR, 1932.] 4353 test agaiinst Federal encroachments and had Mr. Griffiths: Have not protests been spent time and money in eudeavouring, to miade by the score, and no notice taken of educate the people regarding the aldvantagtes them? of extending State rights, it is signilicant Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: The hon. mnem- that nothing was heard from the Dominion ber may have written and spoken on the LeaguLe, an organisation supposed to be fear- subject but, as far as I know, there has less and militant in its activities. Not a never been any public discussion or organ- word was heard from that organisation in iced attempt by the so-called Domninion condemnation of the drastic action taken hr League on a scale likely to impress the the Federal authorities against the Govern- public. I do not know of any special effort mecnt of New South Wales. Then quite re. being- malde with regard to the attack upon cently control was taken by the Federal Cor- NeIw South Wales nor yet the encroach- ernient with rcegard to the expenditure of ittent upon the control of expenditure in money within Western Australia. I do WVesterni Australia by the movement that not remember the representaitives of tile member for Avon (11r. Griffiths) is so thle secession movemnt protesting against anxious to defend. that further encroachiment, I read manyv Mr. Sampson: A public mteetinor waz letters regarding secession, lbut in not held] at His MAajesty's Theatre at which one of them was either of llme~e 92.000 people attended, and resolutions two instances of Federal encroachment were carried affirining the desirability of upon thle Constitution and the rights of secession. thu States, ever mentioned. I ask, in all Hon. %V. D. JOHNSON: That is so, but seriousness, whether the secession miovemlent while people carry resolutions affirming in this State-we miust remember that that the desirability of secession, unification i- organisatiomi posed as one functioning to graduially hecoming an accomplished fact. protect the State, leading- people to believe Instead of emnphasising Federal encroach- that all was well, and that the league relotre- mients upon our Constitutional rights, the sented at body capable of regularly anti con- Dominion League discusses impracticable sisteutly attending to Miatters affecting the matters, when practical services could be welfare of time State-Es content to allow renidered in the direction I have indicated. activities of that description to go un- Mr. Sampson: Then let us pass a Bill challeng-ed? Yet all the time there bas been giving the people the Tight to vote on this gradual eiicroachinent upon our consti- secession. You can help us. tutionial righlts, to which reference was made by the Lender of the Opposition. Hlon. W. D. JOHNSON: The hon. mem- ber will see what The Mlinister for Agriculture: Do you not I am driving at directlyr. know that the object of the League is to The Federal Glorerninent are gradually bring about secession? picking the State's pockets, and extracting our revenue. As a kind of sop they arc Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: If time secesziun- retuirning some of the mnoney they take, as ists are p~repared] to allow the preseint comupensation in regard to the impossible policy to continue, with its gradual but task the State is endeavouring to accom- sure absorption of the rights of the State, plish in balancing the Budget. While it is not secession that they will get, but Weste;rn Australia secured an increased rather uinification. disabilities grant, we still cannot balance The Minister for Agriculture: 'Would the Budget. Despite the increased amiount not all these matters constituite good argu- returned to the State, we cannot make ments in favour of secession at the right both ends meet. We are still in the finan- time?7 cial difliculty that has confronted the Gov- Hon. W, D. JOHNSON: I am inclined erment ever since they took office. All to think it -will be too late to mnake use of the encroachmients of th Federal Govern- these arguments in view of the gradual nient are in the direction of depressing absorption of our rights with the concert' State finances, curtailing the income of -I say that advisedly-of the secession the State, and, at the same time,, leaving movement. It is useless closing the stable its with all the burden of expenditure. I door after the horse has gone. The seeen suggest the time has arrived when we sion movement should fight vigorously should review the Constitution. I believe against the extension of Federal powers. some organisation is necessary to review [ASSEMBLY.] unification train the State point of view. people, to attempt to continue as we are Unification is gradually being forced upon doing to-day. There are increasing deficits, us. Speaking on that subject some time in each State, with variations here and there,. ago, I said that T objected to piecemeal uni'- but year in, year out, they conitinue to in- fication because it was an unfair wvay of crease enormou sly. The financial. situation approaching the subject. It is wrong for thtu must be steadied. I cannot see hlow it can Federal authority to perpetually extend lie limited or the financial difficulties reduced their powers of control. I became alarmned- with State Parliaments constituted as they wh'Ien thex' made their attack upon New aire to-day. T want Western Australia to as- South Wales. If it is right, constitutional sume the initiative, review the position and and desirable that the Federal Government ascertain what can be put in shape ready for should attack a State, as New South Wales submiss9ion to the Federal authorities, who was attacked, there can he no limit to what will then be forced by pressure to refrain the Federal authority can do. We should front further encroaching upon State activi- take olhicial notice of this gradual absorp- ties. Following- up the economic situation, *tion of State powers, Instead of allowing we were led to believe that we would secure- the Federal Government to take piecemeal some appreciable resufts from the Ottawa control of our revenue, which makes it more Conference. difficult for us to carnv out our work of de- The Minister for Lands: We have not Yet velOlpnient and of straightening" out the fill- had time to benefit. ances, we should appoint at special comnmis- Hon. W. 1). JOT-I SON :In anticipation sion to review the situation from the State of practical results, we sent an excessively point of view, and to issue a declaration in- exlpensive delegation. In my opinion, too. dlicating, if onr rights are to 'be gradually many delegates and officials were sent to Ot- encroached upon in the fnture as in the pas t tawa, and I suppose we shall ultiumately he with unification as the iiltiniate result, just presented ith the bill for expenses, which what kind of unification the State desires. will cover aii amount more than Austrhlia I do not say I amn in favour of unification, can afford to pay and much more than wvas hut I amn not blind to the fact that it is necessary,. I question whether the results being forced upon us. I do not desire to fromt Ottawia will justify the expenditure. wake up one morning and find that the Fed- The Minister for bands: What abouit the eral authorit y has been extended so much 2d1. per bushel on wheat-? that -we must go cap in hand to make term-i, Hon, W. D. JOHNSON, I will come to at a time when our position is weakened. that. It ii; difficuilt to juldge' what the results, On the contrary, we should go into the if any, will be. Mr. Bruce is constantly mak- matter and declare what the State desires ing speeches that are broadcast or cabled at this juncture, rather than wait until our to Australia telling us that we can expect powers have been whittled away from us;. something, but it is significant that the 01)- We should not lie silent onl that matter. The tiumistic references to Ottawa achievements Press is spreading a kind of fear amongst comue from the delegates themselves. Out- public men indicating that if they say-, any- side the delegates and the organisation that thing regarding- unification, they aire not sent them, no opinion has emphasised that loyal to the State. I want to be loyal to my an v actual results will ensue. State, hut I1 do not want outsidt'ra to en- The Minister for Lands : There has not croaclh upon my rights as a citizen of the been time to learn what was done at Ottawma. Sta to, without tiabulat ing those ieeroaechmeacts Hon. WN.D. JOHNSON: We ought to. and ascertaining to what extent they prcveiit know something. the possibility of the State continuing to The Minister [or Lands: We shall know function. If we find we cannot continue to inl a wek~ time. function as a State, then let us state defin- lHon. W. 1). JOHNSON: I am speaking itely along our own lines what unified svs- of what I can judge [tom the reports piii)- tern we suggest must be introduced. I em- lished to (late. I have been watching for phasise the economic inipossibilit 'v of main- some indication that Australia w'ill benefit, taining all the Parliaments wve are endear- hut so far I have not been able to discover ouring to retain in Australia to-day. The economnic situation will1 compel us to review 'Mr, Kenneall y: The Prime Minister's state- the position. It is, impossible, with 6,500,000 went in Parliament yesterday was sufficient. [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.] 437

Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: There has been The Attorney General: It was being prac- an improvement in thle prices of Austral ia's tised at the time of which you are speaking. two main staple commodities. Wheat is Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: To a limited ex- gradually but surely firming. tent only. Had it been speeded up a little, The Minister for Lands: And so are out- the pos ition to-day wvould have been better. stocks. I wish to convince the 'Minister for Lands Hon. AV. ). JOHNSON: Ottawa has had that im'y pessimism regarding the results of no effect on the fing (if wvhea t. Let us the Ottawa conference is justified. We get hope that the upward tendency ill be mrain- a concession on frozen meat, but chilled meat tained. Wool, fortunuately, has also fi rmned. is left free. In other words, Britain grants As to those two commodities, we shall not a concession on frozen meat, but no restric- lenefit from the Ottawa conference. The tion is to be placed upon chilled meat. That is easily explained. We cannot send froze,) increase is due purel'y to inflation.Amnerica meat to England. has made enormous sumis of money available The M1inister for Lands: We send all for circulation in that country. Because frozen meat to England. monoy has been wade cheaper and distri- lion. W. 1). JOHNSON: We send frozen buted more liberally, conmmod ity prices have mnutton and frozen lambs. increased . People are buying more because there is more money wvith which to buy it. In The M1inister for Lands: And frozen beef. to-day's paper references aire made by thc Hion. W. D). JOHNSON: A very small Stahilisation Board that owing to the amount quantity of frozen beef. Britain gets all or money available, they are able to do her meat chilled from the Argentine. Argen- certain things regarding- the stored wheat tine can send chilled meat to Britain.: we and cotton. The Bank of England has ad- cannot because the distance is too great. opted a similar policy of making ioney Consequently we may get a minimum result cheaper and freer. During the last few from this concession, but the advantage held weeks Mr. Montague 'Norman, head of thn by the Argentine to-day will continue. Ar- Bank of England, has been to America, and gentine is financed mainly by British capi- coinciding with his visit we find money be- tal, and the existing controlI will be con- coming easier and credits being extended. tinned by England's importing chilled meat Consequvently the prices of those two corn- in compe tition with our less favoured frozen modities have firmed. What has happened is meat. exactly what Mr. Theodore suggested to the The MVinister for Lands interjected- Attorney General at the conference he Hon. WV. D. JOHNSON: I know that attended. Mr. Theodore suggested that chilled beef is quite a different proposition money should be made a little easier in Aus- fronm frozen. Australia exports butter under Indian as a result of inflation. wihat is known as the Paterson scheme, and The Attorney General: Why pick mie? the (luestioll arises whether any advantage to be derived from the preference will neces- lion. AV. D. JOINSON: I understood sitate a review of the Paterson schemne. It the Attorney General was present when Mr. 'nay be impossible for uts to maintain the Theodore outlined his policy originally for Paterson scheme, and comply with prefer- the extension of credit by C1S,000,0OO. ence conditions. Then the question wvill arise The M1inister for Lands: He also said he whether we will get any advantage. I do did not believe in inflation. not say that the Paterson scheme is econo- Hon. W. D). JOHNSON: He did not be- mically, sound, but we have organised the lieve in the kind of inflation that the Mlinis- butter export business on that basis, and ter construed his remarks to imply. Every- we may) interfere with the established prac- one appreciates that inflation must be con- tice and do more harm than good under the trolled. Otherwise, it would get out of hand, new arrangement. Already the Federal as it did in European countries. What 'Mr. Government have anticipated the advantage Theodore spoke of and what is now being accruing to wine export by reducing the practised in America and England was con- bounty on Australian wine. trolled inflation as advocated by the Scullin The Minister for Lands: That is charged Government. anntthe wine people. The Attorniey General: And being prac- Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: It is really dif- tised in Australia to-day. ficult to size tip the position and arrive at Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: Yes. a conclusion as to the advantages to be 438 (ASSEMBLY.] derived by Australia from the conference. gretting, the results that should be obtained We may get an adlvautage in one way and because of the attitude of the Legislative lose 'it in another way. Certain it is Council in limiting tile operqtions of the thabf we shall he disorganising established measure from year to year. The board that customs and markets by thle alteration. is controlling thle miarketing of the com- I wish to eniphasise that all the efforts moditv cannot interfere with a member of towards improved I arketing will be the existing marketing organisationi, because of no avail until we realise the importance there is no guarantee that the Act will be of marketing from a producer's point of extended beyond the limit placed upon it by view. We want some better organisation for the Legislative Council, What we want is the marketing of our exportable surplus. an, extension of the pet iod for a number of Whether it be fruit, wine or any other comn- years, so as to give the board--not the same mnodity, the export business must be organ- board, because it is subject to election every ised in such a wvay as to conunand the atten- vear-power of control over the conmnodity, tion of the public. To do this the article and in that way give the organisation some must be presented in the most attractive degree of stability. form, but we are not doing that because too The Minister for Lands: When does the man 'y people are tikrn wt h business. Act expire? Hon. one organisation, ''This has to lie put onl the W. 1). JOHNSO-N: Its operations were limited to three years, and what we world's market in the most attractive wa. want cannot InI Western Australia a number of orgallisa- lie done in that period. Hon. tions are competing, but none of them is miembers will appreciate tta t what is re- concentrating onl the question of presenting quired is security, so that the organisation the article in the most attractive wvay. W e may get the maximum results for the lpro- need an org anisation that canl ensure uniform ducers. I should like to tell the House what packing and labelling and a proper stand- has happened in connection with the export ardisation of weighit nad quality. Other of butter. ]last -year the co-operative butter countries that are not surpassing us for the factories of this State exported about 25,000 cases of butter; in ether words the pro- quality of their produce are defeating us by presenting anl inferior article in1 a More ducers, through their own organisation, at- attractive form, So long. as we tinker wvith, tended to the export of their surplus butter. marketing as we are doing, so long shall wre InI order to meet thle requirements of the be in difficulties. We have heard of too British market, the moisture content of the many cooks spoilinig the broth. The troulble butter here had to be reduced, roughly speak- is that too many exporters are spoiling thle ing, to about 16 per cent. That "'as the limit market. The outstanding need in the market- that could pass tile test for export. But wvhile the co-operative-owned factories were ing of our produce is Organisation, and thus limiting the moisture content, the organisation wvithout legislation has proved] pro- prietary concerns werec coming along and impossible. Where a portion of our produc- marketing butter with a moisture content tion has to be marketed locally, and the sur- of upl to 20 per cent. The pr-oprietary plus exported, legislative control of the comnpanlies were thlus exploiting the co- whole of the commodity is necessary to operati'-e concerns. They- were getting handle it ecoliomicallv and' market it inl thle their returns from butter that had 20 per best form. Eighty per cent, of our dried cent. of water as comnparecd with thle better fruits are exported. For years we tried to that hadl to be exported and also sold control the local market and the export locally containing 16 pe cent. The market by voluntary organisation. Numier- proprietaiy concerns then gave the pro- ous voluntary organisations were formed. ducers a slight increase, and succeeded I took 1part in quite a number of it eneoul-agng some producers to leave them and we tried to regulate mnat- the co-operative concerns and supp~ly ters ,by attending to the export of the privatel y-owned factories. The latter the surplus, and at the same time the were able to pay a little more for the butter marketing of our local needs. But we failed fat, because thle product they were turning time and again until afterwards Par1liament out contained more water. Hfon. members passed anl Act giving tile grape growvers con- will thus see how the co-operatively con- tirel of their commodities. They al-c not trolled factories were penalised during the functioninig as they should do, and are not last export season. The proprietary fae- [7 SEPTEMBER, 19.32.] 439

tories inade the most of the opportunit, ill that way avoid double or perhaps treble and in sonie cases made a real welter of it. handling. I have pointed out over and I know that the Minister and his officers over again in the House that we are losing woke up to the injustice and declared that anl enormous amount of money because of they were going to put a stop to it. M1any our inefficiency regarding the marketing of years ago Parliament wisely passed a Dairy our products. We are likewise suffering Act, a very fine piece of legislation indeed. because of our wvant of control. I urge The Act gives the Minister absolute control uponl the Minister, at the earliest possible over dairy factories of every description, date, to introduce legislation on the lines and he has power to see that they are con- of that enforced in New South Wales and ducted onl a uniforn basis, producing, the Queensland so that we max- organise in the best type of butter with a uniform oistur direction of assisting the producers. We content. The -Minister for Agriculture has would not in any way interfere with the promised to do quite ia lot, and I .'ppeai local consumers, huit we should get rid of to him to go even a little further. He maly our surplus products on the world's markets be surprised to know that during the last and obtain hotter prices. Before I conclude, fewv weeks butter has been coming down with let me give one illustration. I shall take a 19 per cent, moisture content, and it has the export of eggs. One of the biggest been sold under the eyes of the officers of distributors in London is a mnn named the department. Muore. He is buying from two or three The Minister for Agriculture: There was organisations in W"estern Australia. One a flaw in the regulations, but now that is man sends eggs to Muniro in London. an- being put right. other mann is doing the same, and very likely so is a third Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: I am glad to iman, the hear that, because grave injustice was being result being that Mfunro has three inflicted on other butter producers. It is competitors supplying Western Austra- satisfactory to know that the weakness in lian eggs. We know what human nature the regulation that permitted that kind of is. If there were only one seller, as there thing to take place has beeu discovered. should be in a State like ours, there would aend that it is to be remedied. I hope now not be competition in selling, and the one that the officers of the department will huyevr in London would have to make his vigorously enforce the provisions of the Act. purchasesq from the one seller. To-day in I vant the 'Minister also to realise that just regard to all our commodities we have a multiplicity of sellers, and a limited number as control is required with regard to dairy- ing, so is it needed in respect of dried fruits. of buyers. It should be the other way I realise that there is no need to control about. That is done in Queensland and commuoditics that are marketed locally, but New South Wales to a g-reat extent. if we produce commnodies of an export qual- We could do it better in Western Aus- ity in excess of local requirements, then you traliia, because generally speaking we have cannot possibly re-pulate the marketing of better commodities, and it only requires that commodity' othr than by legislation. the appreciation of Parliament as to what Look at the mess we are making with the is takingr place to give the producers an lamb) trade to-day. It is wonderfull what organisation for marketing similar to that we in this State are able to produce. but which exists for the mairketing of wheat. we are not marketing our products as they Ilaxv already placed onl record what has should he marketed, and neither are wyeexer- been done by the wvheat pool. For many cising that control wvhich is necessary'. We years there was no direct control, but after have not authority to say' that the export the establishment of the pool. the position quality of lambs shall he of a certain stand- was revolutionised. We have for the pro- ardi, and that ainyone who has fat lamubs duncers a seat on the Baltic Exchiange where shall take his share of the export responsi- the advantages and the superiority of bility, leaving sufficient for the State's needs. Western Australian wheat are constantly, To-day' there is nobody' with authority. Any- broUdult under the notice of the greatest one can go to a saleyard and buy what he organ sation in the world. That could considers suitable for export. Nobody has never haive been done without sonic kind of any light to saly, "That is an exportable compulsory organisation. The wheat pool, sheep or lamb, and can be sent direct to all the same, is not organised as one would the central killing and freezing place," and wvish. It is 60 per cent, efficient, and if we 440 [ASSEMBLY.] had 100 per cent, efficiency we can imiagine ists. And the control of gold is a great dis what the result would be, especially when turbing factor, possibly the greatest after we remember thle success that has followed the wvar debts. If tile control of gold were the 60 per cent, efficiency. We believe we in the hands of one strong representative are suffering from World economic difficul- international bank of reserve, the gold could ties. It is agreed that we cannot adjust be used to stabilise the various countries of economics in Western Australia unless the world, helping those in distress and somiething he done throughout the world. gradually stabilising commiodity prices. But But we can do a good deal in regard to the sad side of it is that just at the tinie our export commodities if we tackle the When Wveare all gettin~g optimlistic, thle in- problem in the right way. I believe that formation conies that America is going to while a little consideration was given to limit the consideration of economic matters credit and currency at Ottawa, that con- at the London conference, that shte is going, sideration was limited to the percentage of to bar all discussion of wvar debts. Should toll put upon production hy invested capital. that happen, I do not know that much re- I was pleased to see that the economists sult from the conference canl be looked for. that attended the Ottawa Conference im- It is very sad that, just when there is op- pressed on the delegation that the toll of poitunitv to do something for thle sulfering invested capital upon the valueo of proiduc- humllanlity of the world, one nation, thne one tioni was getting altogether out of propor- (hat could contribute most to the re-estalb- tion, and that that toll was largely con- lishnient of economic conditions, is taking, tributing to the present difficulty. As far uip ai hostile attitude. f want to differ from as I canl see, the consideration given to the statement made last inight by the Min- credit and to currency at the Ottawa Con- ister for Unemployment Relief that tile pre- ference "'as really to gather detailed know- sent system of part-ti me and partial can- ledge in regard to the toll upon production ploymnent is the best method of overcoming by, invested capital, so that the inrmaintioin the existing uinemplloyment diIfficulty. In th', Would bie available at the great Economic discussion oil the Supply Bill I said, andL Conference to be held in London. Those want to repeat it now, that what is neccssan of uts w~ho have been studying this ques- is to re-establish men in industry onl the full tion have been waiting patiently for the purchasing powver of the wvages earned. In' London conference. We did expect that other wvords, we require to increase the unl- the League of Nations would he able to her of consumers.. To-day the great mass accomplish something, but owing to the of the working po(pulation aic really) on a fact that America is not associated With bread-and-jamn basis. The 'y aire not buying the League, the League's operations have the needs of their families and their homes; been limited. The Leage has (lone a con- thle.%, are not able to get their clothing. This siderable amount of educational work, but hats lbeen emiphasised over and o'er again. apart from that its actual accomplishment is So what is the use of perpetuating that, of limited because the League is not truly tile Government saying, "We have at little representative. The forthcoming london money and we aire going to expend it oil pi rt conference will be truly international. All time so far ats it will go"? If the Minister or the nations of the world are expected to the Government would reverse that policy and send delegates for the purpose of try'ing to say, 'qVe are going- to Put as nmany men Oil arrive at economic reconstniction. In my full-tinme work onl the basic wag e as the opinion, if w.e could but overcome three money w~ill permnit." the Governmsent would outstanding needs, we would make con- then be making the workers consumers it siderable prog-ress towvards re-establish- the full sense, tile money would start to mient. I refer to the complete suspension tNowv, andt we should havec rehabilitated in.- or cancellation of war debts, a review of .iustry to the extent of thne expenditure of reparations, and the creation of anl inter- thle money available. Bitt to-dlay we arc not national bank of reserve. I believe thle war doing that. The wvorkers are not consuniers debts must ultimately go, and the sooner in the full[ sense of the word, but are on at the bettor for all thle nations of the world. bread-and-jam basis, instead of being able Again, we can see that we shall always have to buy, all the commodities required for their discontent and possibly revolution while homes and theirin families. In mly own' elee - the injustice of the reparation pa,,ieits ex- lorate recently 70 or P0 men were re-em- [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.] 441 ployed at the Midland Junction Workshops like those other organisations that lbecalme a on full time. A fair proportion of those bit windy and started to curtail. Another men live in Midland Junction. Somne of th,_t outstanding, illustration is the WVest Austra- business men of the town have told me that lian Newspapers Ltd. The-e is anl organisa- they could see a definite improvement in tion that has maintained the price of 2d. for business in consequence of the employment its daily newvspaper. When fir-st the price of of those men on full time, and that there that pnjpcr w-as raised from Id. to 2d., the was a b~etter tone discernible throughout the newsprint was costing the coimlany about Mlidland district. The point of it wasi that £80 per tonr. To-day the price of newsprint the re-emiployed men, being on full time, is £D0 per torl, notwithstanding which that were consumers oiice more, anid as a result company refuses to r-estore tire origintal price business became more buoyant. I believe of thre newspapjer, namely., one penny. Ce- that is thle way in which we shall have to tainly that corny1 is not oil part timte. overcome our difficuilties. I am no believer The~cMinister for Lands: You know that in this part-time employment. It is not to their prices for adv-ertisemnents have been tire advantage of the State, nor do I think r-ornside,-hlv i-educed. it is of much use to the unemployed. 0r Hon. W. 1). JO1HNSON: i kniow thatt the course we must maintain sustennce pay- service rendered by the newvspaper to the

ments, bitt I wvant the Minister to try to et public has been reduced - an expert investigation into this matter, for I think it would ultimately be found Sitting suespenrded from 6.1I- to 7.30 p.m. that by' giving full-time employment we would reach stability much faster than we Hon. W. 1). JOHNSON: 1 wish to stress are likely to do under existing conditions. the fact that the "West Australian" News- Frequently has the Premier said that work papers Ltd. have maintained the price of begets wvork. That is quite right. The more their product, although the raw material is mna we put onl at futll timc, the greater will costing to-day roughly £30 instead of £80 I be the cumnulative result, for those men in havec seen no announcement of a proposal to turn will influence the employment of other reduce the advertising rates. Tis organisa- men, and so the good work will extend. But tion has ma intainred its p~rice, but has taken while we have partial employment we shall adv-antage of the i-edution tin wages pro- never get very far. If wve review those in- vided by the Financial Emne-gency Act. dustries and businesses and activities that Under the pr1esent econonmic situation the have niot taken any notice of the depression, conipan ]lhave been able to earr for their but have gone ahead as usual, it will he seen shareholders a very substantial profit. it is that they have taken every advantage of impossible frorn the p)ublished figuires; to say wvhat the the Financial Emergency Act in point of p rofits have been, but we k-now tlrat the capital is £4717,000, wages, but have maintained their prices and and that in a short space of time a reserve amounting to charges just as before the depression. Those about £130,000 has been built up. The are thre concerns that arc flourishing andi profit moade this year was £961,000 paying big dividends, while those that got compared with £57,000 last year. A dividend onl the share scared and started to cut rates and prices and seurices hnve been losing ground. An caplital has been declared at the rate of about outstanding illustration wvill be found in the 13 per cent. This is anr indication that wvhen one maintains banks. The emergency legislation has not one's activity at the price set interfered with the banks, for they were deli- down-, previous to the depression, one gets better results than would be the case if a nitely excluded from it. cheescpaning policy was adopted, and tbere The Minister for Lands: Their profits have was a general reduction in wages. I would been consideraibly' re~duced. ,apply that lprinciple to my contention that Hon. W. D. JOHN*SON: That may be so, wveshould give thle worker an opportunity but still their profits are grecater than the to re-establish himnself, get back to his original pi-ofits of those other concerns that cut down price, and once mor-e be put upon a paying everything from the beginning. Certainly basis. Thib newsp~aper, which makes a sub the branksolhave not been penalised to the ex-_ stantial profit for its shareholders, is to-day tent that other firms and companies have. supporting one of the most cruel cuts that has Because the banks maintained their business ever beeni made. A certain saving is to he as usual, they have not suiffered anything effected by the Federal Governient by 442 [ASSEMBLY.]

taking, from old age pensioners a matter of Hou. W. fl. JOHNSON: When the Bud- £1,000,000, as their contribution towards the ti buh dow I shall want an epana- economic situation. The "West Australian"l tion of what it is p~roposed to do with the believes that is just. I appeal to the paper land t hat is to be cleared at F ankiand River to think a little deeper, and ask if it is by the uniemployed. When, the -Minister for reasonable that the company should be pay'- La~nds proposed to clear land at Nornalup, ing dividends to the extent they are doing, the Chamber limited his activities in a ccr- and yet claim that it is impossible tain direction. to maintain a payment of 17s. 6d. a The Minister for Lands : The Chamber week to old age pensioners. I take strong did not do so. exc-eption to the action of the Federal Go- Hon. W. fl. JOHNSON: We influenced cinnient in penalising the pensioner beyond his action. %%hat he has already been penalised.: I The Minister for Lands: You did not. used all my influence against the previous cut, and joined with others in the effort to Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: He dlid not go have the amount reinstated at the curliest to tile extent originally suggested. If lie has possible moment. I also took p~art in the gone as far as that, lie has not indicated it last Federal election campaign. All the can- to the House. The Minister for Lands : I said we were didates I listened to endorsed the 1)roposal that one of the first p~aymnents that should limiting the scheme to 100 persons, and we be reinstated to the original figure was the have done so. £1 a week to old age pensioners. There Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: At the outset were no indications by the supporters of the more than that number was talked of. There Lyons Government that they proposed to are hundreds of thousands of acres of high- endorse further cuts in these pensions. Had class laud, as good as, if not better than, anyv- they made the slightest announcement to thing else in the South-WNest, lying close to that effect, it is questionable whether the existinlg railways, and held( in an unimproved Lyons party would heave been returned. The condition. party which either endorsed or condoned the The Minister for Lands: Where? cut of 2s. 6id. a wveek certainly suffered. The Hoin. WV.D. JOIINSON-: There are tens supporters of the Lyons party received a of thousands of acres between Bunbury and certain amount of support beca use it was Bridgetown. One can travel for miles assumed they were opposed to that cut. Had thtrough beautiful country, some of it ring- they strongly' supported it on the hnstings, barked and a good deal of it in its virgin and conveyed the idea that thev would agr-ee state, but all of it is privately owned. to a further reduction, I do not think there The Minister for Lands: it is available, would have been, anFy Ly'ons Government in but at a price we coulId not afford to par. Australia. It is wrong to place suech a bun- Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: No individual den upon those least able to bear it. There should be allowed to penalise the State in should be a public outcry' against this uni- that way. position. We should be afforded an oppor- The Minister for Lands: Things were tunity to discuss the matter in this Chamn- worse when you were Minister for Lands. ber, and make representations for the pro- Hon. WV. D. JOHNSON: This land has tection of aged persons within our orwn bor- been nonopolised for years. ders. I believe the Returned Soldiers' The Minister for Lands: And it was when League, many of wvhose members enjoy' pen- von were Minister. sions, would take an active part in prevent- Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: At that time ing the singling-out of aged persons for a other activities were going- on, although I penalty of this description. I trust the peo- may not have done all I should have done. ple of the State will endorse the protest al- Thme Minister for Lands: You could not do ready made, and that the community will it then. raise one voice unnimously in support of Hon. WV.D. JOHNSON: I was Minister that protest. for Lands during the war period when we Air. Marshall : Otie section of the comi- had other problems to tackle. Even if I was inanity has been reduced 22 . per cent., but lax, it is an onista nding ie)Voflcl against it is now proposed to take 25 per cenit. off all Governments that this land should be left the old age pensioners. un improved, and that we should be goi rig [7 SEIThMvBES, 1932.] 4-fl miles away from it in order to put lpeople poliiaii area. The member for Nedlands, on the land. Before any of this new Ianad (Hon. N. IKeenan) while Chief Secretary canl profitably be utilised, it must be liniked ignored that hionourable understanding, and tip with railway comnmunicat ion. The pri- made other arrangemients. Although I pro- vately-owned areas tire close to a railway, test against that., the point I wish to make and close to butter factories, sawmills andc is that fire fighting is a metropolitan activity, other activities that are necessary for c-on- and not at district activity. Fremantle fire- comlie production. It is within tile power of fighters call reach Perth in very quick the Government to declare that they no long-er time to assist the fire fighters here. It is quite a simple matter to mobi- intend to have areas of unimproved land( l'- ing, idle alongside existing railways, and be lise all those activities inl and around the mectropolitan area. District forced to go to remote parts of the State divisions are not necessary- The matter of to bring about land settlement. I am) fire fighting could 'be centralised, br it opposed to the clearing operations that are could be confined to two or three organisa- going on now. I warn the Minister that tions. The continuance of the obsolete if lie clears land ai, does not ininindiarely settle it, under-growvth will become stronger mnultiplicity' of organisations is unduly ex- than ever, and the clearing costs will be pensive. [it my own electorate, the Fire greater than the original costs. We went Brigades Board proposed to build] another fire station at Bassendean. I inn through that experience at Denmark. Many glad the tens of thousands of pounds were wasted local road board protested against that at Denmark because we cleared the area course. There is no need for fire stations and then had difficult 'y in settling it. We so close together when transport has been shall experience graver difficulties as rec revolutionised to such an extent in fire gards tlhe land niow being cleared. I yen- fighting appliances. Therefore I trust the ture the opinion that that laud will have to Government will appreciate the need for be recleared, and that the new growth will be economising in this regard. The Fire iacre difficult to cope with than the original Brigades Board is too expensive an insti- growth was. I wish to refer to just tution to-day; its administration is out of twvo or three local matters. I appeal to the (late; and great economies could be ef- Government to realise that something is fected by an amendment of the Act and a wanted as regards the administration of fire review of the board's activities. In con- brigade matters. The Fire Brigadles Board clusion, let me express my hope that in is altogether too expensive to-day. The levy the Budget the Government will make some Pilt upon property holders and ratepayers is Pronouncement as to relief for the primary beyond the needs of to-day. The Act which producers. A special Royal Commission the board administers is 20 or 25 years old, investigated the position of the wheat- an utterly obsolete measure. We know that growers in particular, and made recom- fire fighting in the metropolitan area is die- miendations. So far as I know, few if any finitely associated with transport. of those 'recomnmendations have been Mr. H. W. Mann: Do you suggest the adopted. volunteer system? The Minister for Lands: You have not Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: I suggest a coin- read the report. raonsense system. I recognise that we can- Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: I read it most not have two system~s in one area. If it has carefully. proved to be essential to have permanently The Minister for Lands: Tell us some paid firemen to fight fire in most parts of the recommendations that have not been metropolitan area, that system should be adopted. made general throughout the area. The Hon. W. D). JOHNSON: I have miatter was reviewed some years ago, and the no authorities recognised a permanently paid hesitation in saying that the Minister fire brigade to be essential for the protection Would have great difficulty in mentioning of property in the metropolitan area. For one recommendation that has been adopted special reasons, one or two exceptions were in its entirety. mnade: but it was definitely agreed, and an The -Minister for Lands: I will tell you hionourable understanding was arrived at, all about that. that no extension of the utilisation of volun- Honl. W. fl. JOHNSON: The Govern- teer firemen would be made within the metro- ment have tinkered with some of the re- 444 444[ASSEMBLY.] commendations, adopting portions of them; crease. They see the interest burden con- but generally speaking tlhe Government tinuing to pile up. The women and child- have ignored the Conunission 's vital recom- ren, iii particular, are beginning- to wonder mendations. Those recommenadations which whether they will ever see brighter tines would prove of assistance to the primary again. I ask the Government to do a little producers have been ignored, and the pri- more than appoint Royal Commissions. We mary producers have been allowed to toil have had a Royal Commission on wheat- on under impossible conditions, I have re- growing; and nothing has resulted from ferred to the fact that the State is strug- that, so far as I am aware. We have had gling under impossible conditions. The case a Royal Conmmission on dairying and group of the primary producers is similar. They settlement. I do not know what is going are saddled with debt to such an extent to be done with regard to the recommnenda- that now they have to make compound in- tions of that Royal Conmnission. I have terest payments. That could be avoided not seen any active move on the part of if only the Government would provide the G3overnment to carry them into effect. means for funding the liabilities. I do not Above all, I consider that wvhen Royal Coin- suggest that we should at this stage write missions -are, appointed, Parliament should the liabilities off, bitt they should be funded have an opportunity of discussing their re- so as to protect the producers against de- ports. mnands fnr comnpond interest. The existing The Minister for Lands.: So Parliament position is impossible. The Minister for iias. Agriculture knows that what I say is true. Hon. W. D. J OHYSON-\: The Govern- Whcatgrowers and woolgrowers are abso- inent should suggest the period for a dis- lutely afraid of commodity prices rising, cussion. The idea of private members hav- for they know perfectly well that those to whonm ing to move for consideration of the reports they owe mnoney will then lie most exact- of Royal Commissions, appointed liy the ing in their demands for paymient. To-day Government is, in myv Opinion, wrong. the creditors are giving the farmer a rest; The Minister for Lands: You know that lint the liabilities are his, and interest is no other Royal Commission report has ever being charged uip. As soon as ever he gets bieen investigated by this House as the a little return over the cost of what he House investigated thiat last report. produces, efforts wvill he made to collect from him the interest burden he has ac- Hon. W. fl. JOHNSON: I do not know cumulated. In other words, he will be that there was any close iuvestigation by the kept right down to the level on which he House of that Royal Commission's report. is struggling to-day. His standard of liv- Certain members did draw attention to it, ing has become deplorably low. The dan- and did advance a plea for consideration t" ger can be avoided if only the Minister the farmners as outlined by the Royal Com- will take action to fund some of the lia- mission. But Parliament itself did little or bilities which have accumulated during the niothing, as a Parliament, to give considera- last two or three years, and to spread their tion to the report. We make a plea for the paynient over a number of years to be de- unemployed, hut at the same time let us not cided ini accordance with the farmers' posi- forget those producers throughout Western tion, thus preventing the liabilities fromi Australia who have heen brought dtown in producing further interest burdens. It income because of the fall in commodity could be done by declaring a moratorium i prices, because of the fact that they arc regard to those debts. Bly that means the selling below cost of production and have whole position could have been relieved been doing so for two or three years, until in a practical way which would have given to-day their standard of living is a disgrace new heart to our primary producers. To for any Parliament to tolerate. I ]ave a!- me it is extraordinary that representatives ready, contributed my share to the considera- of country constituencies, influentially tion of the unemployed problem, and I amn situated so far as the Government are con- not unmindful of the fact that another large cerned, allow this question to drift. That section of the comimunity has the right to is quite wrong. Every day the farmers are look to Parliament for help, and to expect getting worse and worse off. They are be- from Parliament greater consideration than coining more depressed as their debts in- the Government have extended up to date. [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.]

HON. A. MeCALLUM (South Fremantle) dion promises, the Premier possibly think., f(7.58j: 1 rise to oppose the motion, or at that the Lieut-Governor might be included -all events that part of it which expresses ti any consequent adverse comment. We thanks to His Excellency the Licut.-Gover- Eloust regard the Speech as disappointing. nor for the Speech. I qee nothing in tie It is not an indication to the public or to Speech to thank anyone for. Comparing- Parliament as to what the legislative pro- thle Speech with the Notice Paper1 we see gramme is to be. The Opposition have been that the Government, through the Lieut.- charged with having stonewalled the passage Governor, have made no attempt whatever of' the Supply Bill, which was introduced to advise the Hmise as to the likely pro- earlier in the session. Those who make such g4raminei for this session. 'Members usually an accusation against the Opposition have a look, and the public usually look, to the very poor opinion of our capacity. If that contents of the Governor's Speech for indi- really, was our best-effort at stonewalling, my cations of the parliamentary programme for opiMion Of Opposition members must be the session. But the two or three items; materially altered. I do not think any speech which the Speech mentions are- altogether extended vecry couch over one hour, and to ,overslhadowed already-before the adoption suggest that that was our best effort at hold- of the Address-in-reply-by the notices ing up the business of the House, is not which Ministers have given of BiIls they much of a comp~lim~ent to those on the Op-. position side of the House. Parliament had propose to introduce. This fact conjures tip) in my mind two or three questions. I been in recess for eight months, during which do not know whether we arc to treat the! the affairs of the State had drifted front bad to worse. Tens of thousands of Lieutt. -Governor's Speech as a promise ol! our people were hungry. Men and women ,certain legislation to be brought down. That throughout the State did not know where ig the way in which the Speech is usually their next meal was to conme from, or whether regarded. From the fact that on this occa- they wonild have a shelter over their heads sion the Premier has caused only three items that nighit. The Government introduced U to be mentioned, it may be inferred that lie Supply Bill, and because we held up that has learned the lesson not to promise so ine-tsure, asked for information and pro- much. tesited againist what had been happening duir- The Minister for Lands: There might be ing the previous eight months, we were more items. accused of stonewalling. Jf ever the timu lion. A. MeCALLUM: The results of arrives when it wvill be necessary for Oppo- the promises which the Premier made to the sition members to stonewall, those people people of this country at the time of the who levelled that charge against uts will have last election, and also his efforts to fulfil their eyes opened. If they regard the de- those promises, hare so disappointed the bate on the Supply Bill as stonewalling, it people, and so discounted his influence on simply' shows that they do not know what the public mind of Western Australia, that stonewalling is. It was merely at protest seemingly the hion. gentleman has determined voiced by Opposition members in the exer- not to niake any more promises. cise of their rights and duties as representa- 'Mr. Marshall: Not until the next election, tives of the people. at any rate. Hon. P. Collier: And voiced with great Hon. A. MeRCALLUM: If we on this side moderation, too. could be assured that that result had been Ron. A. MeCALLUM: With extreme mod- achieved, we would probably he satisfied eration, considering what had been happen- that our time here had not been mis-spent ing.- Onl the other hand, the meaning may he 'Mr. Marshall: Many members did not something else. The promises that the Pre- speak at all. mlier made to the electors at the last general Hon. A. McCALLTIM: During the history election produced such a storm of protest of this State-IT do not know that I cannot that it may mean that the Premier is not in- include Parliaments in other parts as well- clined to involve the Lieut.-Governor in any there has never before been a Government storm that may now break over his own head. with so small a majority as the present that lHad the Premier included a long list of received such considerate treatment from the BWlls in the Speech and failed to introduce Opposition, as we have extended to the pre- them, as he failed to keep his general cc- sent Government. 446 446[ASSEMBLY.]

The Minister for Lands: You are giving two outstanding points of the debate so far, us what we gave you. and both were maide by members sitting on Hon. A. MeCALLUM1: As I proceed, I the Opposition side of the House. Thus, il' will endeavour to indicate what attitude was it is a, matter of furnishing ideas and sug- adopted by Government members when they gestions as to wvhat should be done, members sat in Opposition. I wvilt indicate how they on the Oppo-sition side of the House have have reciprocated. Complaints have been been responisible for the two outstandingr made by Government members that our points raised so far. It is true that the memn- criticism has been entirely destructive. ber for Willianis-Narrogin (MAr. floney) did The 'Minister for Lands:- We did not com- ma~ke the suggestion that the Government plain about the stonewalling. should write down the liabilities of the farni- Hon. A. MeCALLUM: One or two mem- ers, but I invite him to lie a little more ex- bers on the Government side of the House plicit and say just what he meant. It will did make that complaint, hut the Press was be agreed that this touchies on an outstand- mainly responsible. ing feature of the economiic situation of the Hon. P. Collier: No case could be put up State. We realise that Western Australia without speaking. depends mainly upon01her primary products. Hon. A. MeG ALLUM: If it depended If we cannot produce wheat and wool ait a upon Government members to state their profit, there is not much ahead of the State. case, it would not have much effect upon the public. As a, matter of fact, the Govern- So when the memiber for Williamis-Narrog in Suggested that the Government should write ment do not put up their ease, but rely upon clown the liabilities, other people to do so for them. While we did he refer only to the are accused of being entirely destructive in farmers' liabilities to the Government, or did our criticism, and complaints are made that he include all the liabilities, embracing money we have not offered any suggestions for the owed to merchants as well? If hie suggested guidance of Parliament, it would appear that the writing-down of the total liabilities, who an endeavour is being mnade to assign the does he consider should carry the "write- Opposition a new role. For how long has off"?9 It is useless suggesting the Govern- it been the responsibility or duty of the ment should write down liabilities if it is Opposition to provide the Government with merely those owed to the Government that a legislative programme? Is it our duty to are to be dealt 'with. The pressing liabilities direct the affairs of the country, and not of tho farmers are those owing to merchants. the duty of those holdin.- M-inisterial offie? Hon. J. C. Willcock: And to the banks. When we sat on the Government side of the Hon.' A. Mc1(CALLJVtI: Yes, to outside House and a simuilatr point Was raised, the private institutions, floes the member for present Premier, speaking as Leader of the Will iams-Narrogin suggest covering those Opposition, replied that the people of the State paid us to do the work. Now that he liabilities as well? How does he p~ropose is on the Government side of the House, hie writing off the liabilities, and who is to carry and those with himn want us to submit the extra financial burden? Merely to make a proeranme for them! If -we consider vague proposals of this description without the discussion on the Address-in-reply suggesting- how they can hie accomiplishedl so far as it has proceeded, we way look for does not take us very far towards a solution. thme points that can he regarded as outstand- it is an important point, and I invite the ing, points that have commanded miost atten- member for W\illiams-Narogrin to enlarge tion and require somec examination by the upon it. When lie gets his necxt opportunity Government. In my opinion two points have on the Estimates, I trust lie will let us know lbeen outstanding. The first referred to the exactly what he means. Even since thie in- overlapping of Commonwealth and State ac- itiation of the debate in this House, further t~vities; with the consequent increased costs encvroachmntts by the Commonwealth on heaped on, the country, and the second was State interests, particularly as affecting re- the need for a changed monetary- policy. venue, have been noticed. Last year a Bill The Mfinister for Lands: You will adniit was introduced in this Parliament to impose that the latter is not in the hands of the a tax on winning bets. Already one or two State. ,States have legislation along those lines, but Hon. A. MeGcALLUM: I will show von nlow I notice that the Commonwealth Gov- the position directly. Those have been the ernment propose to explore that field of tax- [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.1 444-47 ation. I am amazed to notice that no po te-de ,v if he had not had to pay that ex- tests have been lodged by State Treasurers. chne? He is advocating not only a re- I thought the discussion on the Supply Bill tention of the lpresent rate but an increase would have awakened the Premier to a little otf it. If hie had not the exchange be would activity. i-I ivas assured of the unanimous be in a far worse position. The money supjport of members of this Chamber. The that be is paying -by way of exchange Leader of the Opposition made it perfectly is coming back to him in maily ways. If the clear where he stood, and the Premier knows prices of wool and wheat were reduced by where the Opposition stand. We suggested 25 per cent.-the exchange mealns anl in- a united protezst to the Commonwealth Gov- crease of 25 per cent. on the prices of those ernment against the continual encroachment comnmod ities-where would he be? What upon State spheres of action. But the Pre- would become of his finance% then? Though muier sat dumbly by. He has made no pro- he puts the exchange forward as an excuse test and lets the matter go by default. It for his deficit, lie is getting the money back tin Many ways. I agree with him inl is left to members of the Opposition to drawv advocating a retention of the exchange. The pmublic attention to the position and endeav- cost of exchange to the State he is getting our to have some action takeni. The Com- not only in taxation bat in freights. There monwealth Government have talked about the is an impression abroad that we had very economies they have effected, I shall have much more loan money to spend than the something, to say about it. They propose present Government have had. The Minister to cut down the old-age and invalid pensions for Railways repeated it last night by say- by 25 per cent. The poor old man or womanl ing, in reply to an interjection by the Leader who is an invalid, blind, crippled, sick, or of the 'Opposition, "You had £4,000,000 to infirm, drawing the munificent incomne of £1 spend in one year and from present indica- a week, has to suffer a reduction of 25 per tions we shall not hare £4,000,000 to spend cent., while High Court juidges in receipt of during- mar termi." One construction that £60 a week decline to give uip one shilling may be placed upon his remnark is he expects and the Common wealIth Government allow anl early demise of the Government. them to persist in that attitude. Mr. Raphael: And it will come. Member: That is patriotism! Hon. A. MNcCALLnlM: I wish to put thle Hon. A. MeCALLUM: And the Common- other side and let thu House and, I hope, the wealth Gov-ernment talk about equality of country know the facts. In our last year sacri flee. of office the loan inoney totalled roughly MN-r.Marshall: Think of the Postmaster £3,600,000. [ will add th e deficit that the General on £3,000 a year. My God, it is all pi-esetnt Premier showed three months later. right! Every mtember will agree that, had we re- Hon. A. McCALLUM: The judge of the mained in office, the deficit would not have High Court who imposed the 22 per cent. been so large. The Premier raked in every reduction on the workers has declined to give account so that every possible penny was one shilling out of his salary to help the paid out, and he pushed hack receipts until Goverpment in the crisis through which they the following financial year. are passing. That man, in addition to his The Minister for Lands: You know that £60 a week, is drawing a pension fromi thle is hardly fair. Queensland Government, When, in face of Hon). P. Coliher: It is true. that, the Government cut the pension from The Minister for Lands: The book., £1 to 15is. per week, it is time a strong pro- were closed on the 30th June and what you test was made from one end of the country say was not done. to the other. While the Treasurer here is heaping up huge deficits, he is allowing the Hon. A. MeCALLUM: The MNinister will Commonwealth to encroach upon-what should not deny that the deficit would have been be sources of income to the State and is sit- considerably less had we remained in office. ting idly by. He and other members hare Hon. P. Collier: The bigger the deficit urged that, had it not been for exchange and that year, the better it was for their first unemployment relief, he would practically rear of office. have balanced the Budget. He has wade a Hon. A. MeCALLUNT: That was the ob- great song about the amount he had to pay ject. All Governments do that. The pre- by way of exchange. Where would he be sent Government are not exceptions. 448 [ASSEMBLY.]

The Minister for Lands: We were the at Harvey, and he has been twitted by first Government to close the year on the members opposite and by writers in the 30th June, both revenue and expenditure. Press with having handed the other side Hon, A. MeNCALLUM: By doing so the an argument to use against him when Government were mnerely carrying out an hulk handling comes up for consideration. arrangement mnade by All the Pyrmiers at Hon. P, Collier: Childish! the conference. We are not denying that, Hon. A. MceCALLUM:- I do not know but it does not affect the issue. what attitude the Leader of the Opposition lion. P. Collier; It does not apply to will take towards bulk handling. It is not a. this point. party issue; every member on this side is Hon. A. MeCALLIJM: T am prepared free to express his opinion. But whatever to allo-w the half-million deficit. That view the Leader of the Opposition takes would bring the amount of money we had of hulk handling, it cannot be influenced to spend during our last year of office to by his attitude on the question of exca- £4,100,000. The present Government had rating the drains at Harvey. He pointed loan money in their first year totalling out that the Government had the mnachines, £1,750,000, and their deficit was £1,460,000 that they were lying idle, and that interest which brought the total to £3,210,000. and other charges on the borrowed money The Minister for Lands:. Do not forget had to be mnet. If there was a given your revenue. Mumi of money for the construction of Hon. A. MeCALLTJM: The whole argu- drains and the machines were used, a ment hinged on loan expenditure. Little greater chainage could be done with of the mioney for employment is paid out the machines than with barrow labour. of revenue. Additional taxation was ima- If members opposite considered that the posed by the preesnt Government. includ- machines would have to be purchased, and ing sales tax, hospital tax, two additional that those charges would not have stamnp duties, totalisator tax, entertainment been incurred if the work were car- tax, parliamentary allowances reduction, ried on by barrow, they were ar- income and dividend duties increases. Tak- guing on -wrong premises. The intro- ing the Treasurer's figures, which can be duction of machinery does not necessarily -regarded as conservative, those taxes re- mean cheapness. During my world tour I presented nothing tinder £400,000 for the noticed, particularly in the United States, year. a country that is over-mechanised, that the Honi. P. Collier: Was it not part of the cheapest method of handling bricks was for present Governmnent's policy to reduce humnan beings to take them in twos and hand taxation?7 them on. In Sydney T saw bricks at a kilni Hon. A. MeCALLUAT: I am not dealing loaded into the body of a dray, the body put with that point. I admit that they did not on a punt, the punt towved. to Sydney, the collect the new taxes over the whole year, body lifted on to wheels and driven to a hut they enforced a wag-e reduction, and building and then hoisted to the level where district allowances were cut out. When we the bricklayers were working. Still those ,were in office it was reckoned that Is. re- bricks had to be removed twvo at a tithe by duction for the railway men amounted to human hands and. passed along. Nowhere £60,000 or £70,000 a year to the depart- has a cheaper method of handling bricks inent, but the railway men, in some in- been found. So it cannot be taken for stances, have been reduced by as much as granted that the mere facet of using machin- 3 0s. a week. Anyhow, wve canl say that the ery will cut down costs. The point made present Government had £3,610,000 against by the Leader of the Opposition was that our £4,100,000, so the difference between the machines were in the possession of the our last year and their first year was only Government, that the interest charges were half a million. That does not take into going on, and that the Government, instead account the wages reduction, and it is ap- of using them to earn the money, had the parent how badly the present Government work done by obsolete methods. I hare compare with the previous Government. noticed this session that two members on the The Leader of the Opposition, in the course Government side have changed their allegi- of his speech, advocated the use of the ance from the party they represented last drag-line excavator for work on the drains year. There was a time when such an ac- [7 SEPTEMBER, 1032.]49 449

tion was regarded as being of sonic signifi- Hon. A. MeCCALLUMN: It makes a cold cance. In all Parliaments it is considered shiver run down the bon. member's spine to that when niembers change their party, thow think. of the result. ought, from a sense of honour, return to The Minister for Lands: I asked you what their electors and seek re-endorsenient. the result had been in the other ease. Mr. Raphael: It is becoming a habit with Hon. A. MfeCALLUM: He is not taking them. any a ask. Hon. A. 31eCALLUM:- Regarding the Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think the hun. member for Katanning. I do not think there member is referred to in the Governor's is anything serious. He endeavoared to Speech. secure the endorsement of the Country' Party Hon. A. MeCALLUM: It should have been ait the last election, and T think it is doubt- mentioned there. I ami protesting against ful now whlere hie stands:. We do not know the omission, I ami opposing the motion be- whether hie is in the Country Party or not. cauise the Speech is incomplete. It should have advised us about le may be or hie may not he. He miay have many more qunestions than it did. been there last Year and may not be there M\r. Raphael: That would come under the now. With th member for Swan (Mir. beading of elections. Sampson) it is an entirel 'y different matter. He entered the House as a member of the Hon. A. MeUCALLUM11: The Governor shutd have Country Party and changed over to the Na- demanded an explanation of the lion. meniber. Perhaps tionalist Party. There "-as some little plumi we aire judging himl too harshly. of offce held out. The Mfinister for Lands: Of course yout Mr. Marshall: lie hadl a feed of the aye. plums, too. Hon. A. MfeCALLU: Perhaps the true Hon. A. MeCALLUMt: He was refused explanation is that there is no difference endorsemient by tihe Country Party. He was between the two parties sitting opposite, not consideredi a good Country Party man. that it does not mater a snap of the He was expelled from the Contry Party. lingers to which a mail belongs, for they Later another Government was fonued, but aeidentical. How has the Country there were no plums for the hon. member. Party slipped from its original status? In Hon. P. Collier: Much to his disappoint- the first place it was a breaka-way from the mien t. jNationalists. We remember the statements Hon. A. 'MeCALLUMI: Now he has de- that were made, that members were domin- serted the Nationalist Party, and gone back ated by St. George's Ten-ace interests, that. to the old one. There may be some plumsw the country members could not get a fair associated with the Country Party. deal, and that the Country Party must have independent representation. Where is all Hon. P. Collier: A man who in the course that now! of one revolving moon was poet, fiddler, Mr. Panton: Back to the Terrace. statesman and buffoon. Hon., P. Collier: They are mild sucking MY. Sam pson: The Leader of the Oppo- dloves. sition can do his little bit in that way. Hon. A. McCALLUMI: There is so little Hon. A. 'MeCALI'UTjM: I do not know hov difference between the partie-s that even the the hon. memnber regards it. Even in the electors do not know to which party their short time that I have been in the House representatives belong. there has been more than one main who has Mr. Brown: What makes tyon afraid of found he could niot agree -with the party to [he Country Party? which he was elected.. and went hack to his electorate. Hon. A. McCALLUh: It is oniyv when I hoolcat the hon. member that I become afraid. The Minister for Lands: With -what result?1 I am not afraid of the party to which he Hon. A. MeCALLUMN: Is it the result belongs. I am only frightened by his ex- that frightens the hon. member? It is not pressions. In his reply to the Leader of the a question of hionour or duty, hut it is the Opposition the Premier gave us a lot of result he is afraid of. This is what we learn information and figures to indicate the from his Leader. economies his Government had effected. He The Mlinister for Lands: Nothing of the went down the list of departments, to show this. What I am going to refer to is a small' .450 [ASSEMBLY.]

item, but it is the feather which shows the The M'inister for Lands: You will have to way the wind is blowing. We have an in- give us some better example than that. stance in front of us of how far the Gov- Hon. A. McCALLIUM: I give that as an erniment have looked to effect economies. I outstanding instance of the failure of the hope what I am going to say wvill not be Government to effect economies. The people taken in a personal sense, because it is not of the State haive to pay for the silk suits, -meant in that light. When the position of silk stockings, patent leather shoes and but- Sergeant-at-Arms became vacant, every tons and to have a full-grown man marchin~g member had it in mind that it would not be around here in knickerbockers. Of what filled. If ever there was a useless office that use is thle positionI I understand that is one. What useful purpose is served by the holder of the office is the official having, a Sergeant-at-Arms in this Chamber? chucker-out. If any trouble arises, and It may he very nice to have such tiny member gets over the odds theve is an1 officer, hut it is altogether un- always a policeman handy to do what is re- (lignified and humiliating to have a quired. I now we,,t to deal with the point full grown manl, a Brigadier General which thle Leader of the Opposition raised at that, walking around the Chamber in concerning- statements made by the Chamber knickerbockers, silk stockings and with bows of Commerce, and the attitude of the Gov- onl his shoes. He is wearing a uniformn einent towards the suggestions advanced which had to be boughlt by the people of the by that organisation. I have stated inl the country when other mfea are unable to find House before that .1 usually prefer to accept clothes for themelves or their children. It the ideas and opinions of hard-headed men is a jperfectly useless office. There has nlever of affairs rather than those of theorists and b.een one shilling's worth of work associated persons who have been academically trained. with the position it' all the years that I have When we have the President of that Chint- been in Parliament. her talking as lie did the other day, one Mr. Sampson: It has been maintained by hesitates about attaching much weight to eeyGovernment. opinions coining from that source. I ani Hon. A. McCALLIJM: Why was it not relieved that the Chiamber has recently changed its president. Perhaps cut out in these times? Every member will we may now hope for .agree that it was not desired to dispense with better things. Referring to the Financial Emergenc -y Act thle thle services of the former occupant of the other day Mr. des Rose made the statement that it would position, but when the office became vacant have been, a splendid measure -we did not think it would be filled. had its effect in arbitration matters been, made mandatory M\f. Sampson: There are duties attached instead of industry being made the catspaw to the office outside this Chamber. of the courts. Such a condition, hie said, was Hon. J. C. Willceck: You do not under- diametrically opp)osed to fostering that feel- position. istand the ing of confidence which was so necessary, Hion. A. McCALLUIN: What are they? and he impressed upon the Government the There are no duties outside the Chamber, necessity for taking measures to amiend this znd there are none within it. paricuarl ofenive portion of the Act at ,Mm. Sampson: in eonnection with thie the earliest moment. That meant that in- libraryv. stead of the Arbitration Court dealing with Ho,,. A. McCALtAM.%: Nso duties are per- wvage adjustments, this Parliament should formed that could not be carried out by any- inandatorily reduce wages. That may suit one who is here. The position is neither the Chamber of Commerce, but it shows ]how ornamental ,,or useful. It is one of the old shallow and short-sighted the views of these traditions that has been handed down to us, gentleman can be. It may suit Mr. dc Rose, -,and should have been stopped now that the while he has his own political colour onl the ,country' is passing through so serious a Government bench, to have this policy car- crisis. To have filled it does not show a very ried out, but if he approves of that policy, keen desire on the part of the Government thle moment time Government is changed, will to effect savings. he still agree tlhat wages should be fixed by The Minister for Lands: You are going Parliament, and that increases should be to judge them onl this one office. voted here? We made our position clear Hon. A. MeCALLUM: I have not finished when the Bills were before us last session. I hope the Government will take no notice [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.] -ilr of this representation. I do not Know what .- tsitas soon ats the worker beg-ins to make big is proposed in the Bills that are coming down, mloney' . Further. in A merica a p~ieceworker to renew these various measures, but if the and a daY worik er ari- not permitted to work oOverunent intend to adopt the suggestion side in- side; lbnt in England and A ustralia of the Chamber of Comnmerce, they may ex- Jpieeeworkers and da~wre. are put side pect serious trouble from this side of the In- side, which, fact Inargely accounts for the House. failure of the pieceework systemi here. Oh- The Minister for Lands: lFroni the titles viotmslY, to deal wvitm the local case, there of the Bills it does not seem as if there would was no reasonable examminatiomn made before be any ma termi alteration. fixing prices- I don rot know whether the Hon. A. McCALLLM: We do not know lPiess rep~orts are correcct, but they have not that yet. been denied, and they state that at Frank- 'Mr. KEurteally : We have to he suspicious. land River the price first was £2, and suhse- The M1inister for Lands: If you were not quently £2 odd, and later still £6 odd. That suspicious it wvould be most unusual. fact proves that there wais no prloper in itial examination, that the men were set an im- Hon. A. MeCALLUM : I want to get some possible task wvhen they started; and no information regarding thle Gnveranent's idila wonder there has been trouble. At lindalIup of piecework and the dispute which has oc- curred at tile Frank-land River. We do not the single mei wvere given blocks to clea-, know what the scheme is. Nothing has yet blocks of at certain size; and when they received the approval of Parliament. We stopped work an p11lrotested, the areas were have passed no vote approving of what is doubhled. How can it lie exp~ected, then, that going on down there. No information has piecework will be a success, with this kind been vouchisafed to us and no member knows of thing going onl? The 'Minister for Works what is in the mind of the Government. We was emphatic in his recent declarationi, that aire told that land settlement is being j)1o- the statements made by the meii to the Pr e- inoited 40 to 50 miles from a railway. What nlier rega rdling the position at Northam wvere is the idea of the Government in arrant-ing wrong. 1 slia II now do wha t I would not settlemlent there, about which the coun try have done-namecly, read at certain letter to knows nothing,? The Government say the ir the House-if the -Minister- had not taken picis for lpiece work and that they are the extraordinary action lie dlid take, that of going to insist upon01it. If they want to mentioning namues, of replying onl the floor make piee work the success they) aire a iming of tile House to a deputation which had not at, they must adopt different measures. it received any reply from the Premier, to seems that throughout the British dominions whom the deputation's represenitations were piece work is not the success the Americans made. Such a course as that adopted by the make of it. That is largely becautse b)oth iii Minister for Works wais nlever before fol- England and the Colonies the employ-ers will lowed in this Parliament. I sent a copy of not pay piece workers the same fair wage the speech of the 'Minister for Works to the that is given in America. I remember read- secretary of the union, and this is a part of ig- the full report of the Moseley Coraniis- thme secretary's reply- sioli which went through America and the T note that Lindsay contends the work oec'- later Commission which was financed iby the pied 3% day s, but the real facts are that "Daily Mi,"and which followed on nmlh their week ends onl Thursday, but Alen incas- tired these nuen up on Friday at 3 p.m., and the samue lines as the other. The reasons in sonme cases anticipated what the men would why piece work was such a success in Am- have cut that night at knock off time, and they erica and such a failure in England were ex- wero paid for that day, which was included in outnined. The reports were the same. The thke anmounts mioned by Lindsay. I note moment the piece worker in England, it wvas also thiat he did not mention Itzstein, Wilkins, or- Scott in his address. Scott started on piece- found, lbegan to make a decent wage, his pay work, bu]t was eventually paid on a day-work was cut, but the American emlloyer for tile basis. Wilkins started at 1.15 p.m. on the monst part did not care hlow much his work- 26th July, and was measured up on Friday, men made, for hie set the figure at one that the 30th, at 3 p.m. Hfe secured 1s. Od., and for Saturday morning he earned 6s. 3d.; so paid him, and allowed the employees to go0 lie earned 25s. in four days. The statements ,ahead stil make what they liked. But in in regard to Lyons and the tinme he worked England and Australia the piecework rate is on the job are a pack of lies. During that 452 452[ASSEMBLY.]

week hte wvent out on thre truck with the othler against a difficult problem. He will not mn and started at 7.30, and finished at knock- face the problem. lug-off time, coming )ioic an the truck at 1knock-off time. In fact, the only statentt The MAiniister for Railways: I faced this 1o made that is ankywhere near correct is in one, at any rate. regard to Thomipson, who earned £2, 10s. iii Hon. A. MeCALLUM: Instead of facing three days and six lienis; not half a day, as the problem and answering the questions mnationed by the -Minister. You will note by looking up the payslieets thiat I' forwarded put to him, hie creates Aunt Stllies that he to you, that Uiblett ea.rned: first Pay, £2 Is. himself can knock over. He has always !3d.; second pay, £E117s. 65d. To earn this done that. During the 25 years I havn aiont lie worked seven days-about 11s. Id. known him, he0 has not altered inl that re- per day. in regard to Forward, hie started gard. His speech last night was typical of nfter luach on Monday, 25th July, and was Measured UP1)0on Friday at 3 p.m. He earned him. I shall give one or two instances to X2 19s. :5d., anid uts T said before, the foreman prove that. Ho set out by stating that he anticipated wsbat they would hiave done in soe had been accused of saying certain things- canac. You will note in the second pay thiat things that nobody had ever accused him Forward only earnied 7s. 6d. of saying. He set out by asserting that hie That is altogether a different tale from that was so accused, because hie wanted to dodge told here by the Minister for Works. I uin- the actual issues which he was asked to of answering them, he derstand that the Premier- mnet the majorik- ase. Instead of these men at Nornalup, and was satisfied selected something easy to answer-in fact, something invented by himself, something that their statements wvere correct, because hie would be able to knock down. He re- he has taken the great bulk, if not the whole, peated hoary old platitudes that have grown of them off piecework, and put them on dayv inouldy wit age. work. The statement made here by the The Minister for ]Railways: Who got that Minister for Works cannot have represented for yen? the full facts; otherwise there would not Hon. A. M7eOALLTJM: He set up eases have been that alteration. Last night I wi ih no one onl this side of the House listened attentively to the iNnister for Rail- had ever mentioned. Then he turned round was I have kniown the hon. member for and said that no one could allege that party a good many years. It is over a quarter of- polities were considered so far as he was at century since lie and I first met. I must concerned. But if it is correct that party say that during that period he has not politics do not enter into the minds of hen. altered, at least not in point of tactics. A inembers opposite in dealing with the situ- good many of the Government supporters ation facing this country at the moment, do not know the gentleman as we know hiulL. there must have been at mighty change of -Mr. lienneally: 'They will get to know recent times, because everybody knows that himl directly. at the last election tile party opposite made Hon. A. MeNCALLUM: His speech last unemployment the issue. That was the issue night was characteristic of him. on which members opposite fought the elec- The Minister for Works: A very fine tion. Their own leader made that the issue speech. before the people, as wve have reminded him Hon. A. MeCALLIUM: That is the often enough. He use the unemployed as .opinion of the Minister for Works. We in the sole issue of the election. Similarly, the Labour movement know the Minister for all the time the party opposite were on this Railways. We know his eharacteristic . side of the Chamber, they used their party One of his muain characteristics is that if, politics against us-the whole of the time- when mnaking a speech, he realises that hie Mr. Ken nealy: And now they tell us the trouble has a difficult ease to answer, is up againist is world-wide. a knotty problem, he immediately createsi Hon. A. MeCALLIUM: During the elec- Aunt Sallies, and knocks them over him- tion the present Premier said unemployment self. Then he will net face the real Issues. was purely a local issue, which he could deal That is a characteristic of the hon. member. with. He said that not only would he find Work for everyone, bat that he had done it The Minister for Railways: I have better before. When the present Leader of the characteristics than you have, anyhow. Opposition put it to him that that was ini- Hon. A. MeCALLIUM: That is a eharac- possible, because if be did find work for tCeristie of his when he finds himself up al! the unemployed in Western Australia, [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.J 453 the unemployed in the -Eastern States would Hon. A. ATeCALLUAM: There is no doubt immnediately rush over here, and that if he ill the world as to whose interests he lef ab~sorbed thle unemployed from the Easterna the Labour Party for. The Minister would S tates, the unemployed from the rest of have beeni well advised to let sleeping- dogs the world would rush here, and that there- lie. fore hie could not keel) his promise locally, The Mlinister for Railways : We canl have nll the reply made b)y the present Premnier that out any time you like, you know. was that unemployment w'as a purely local Hion. A. McCALLUMl: I am prepared to unatter, and that hie could manage it because have it out with him. I think the hon. ment- lie had managed it before. Undoubtedly the her should be downrighlt ashamed of himself. other side made uemlplo vment the issue of The \miister for Ruailwavs: I tm not. the election. Nowv they are faced with a Hon. A. MeCALLUM: He Should never p roblemi concerninig which they had ample attempt to bring that matter wvarningl before the last Pqrliament was dis- up for public discussion, particularly not with those who solved, and aple warning- from the public know hint platform throughlout the election contest. The M1inister for Railways: 1 am pre- Warnings were repeatedly given to them by pared to debate it with you at sany time. our own leader. Now, when they are III office and are faced with the unemployment Hon. A. MeCALLUM: Prepared to de- blate it now, when it is long p)ast and gone! problem, they say' that they want party The Minister for Railways: All the facts politics dropped, and that party politics .should not enter into the question. The are still there. truth is that the on~ly party politics our Beon. A. MeCALLUAI: Yes; but this fact friends opposite want dropped are the Lab- stands out, that you sooled other men to go our Party's politics. Our friends opposite to the war and stopped here yourself, while never drop their own politics. The Minister of military age. You wvould not go to the for Railways talked about being accused of war yourself. not having any of the milk of human kind- The Minister for Railway*s: I did, in coin- nes-I think that "-as the phrase lie used- pany with your Leader. and hie asked whether it should be measured Hon. A. MeCALILUMI: You concealed a out by a pint mleasure. INO one Onl this lot. side of the Chamber ever used that phrase. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I ask lion. inns- The Minister for Railways: Oh, vas! hers to keep order. Hlon. A. 1MeCALLUM1: No matter how Air. Panton: Any-how, I think the Minister rch lie may possess of the milk of human showed good sense there, seeing the way sol- kindness, as%he himself puts it, no matter diers are being treated now. how deeply he malr be imbued with the ideal Hon. A. MCCALLUM: He said he left of helping- the diown-and-out, those asso- this party for the good of the country. diated with hil w'ill not allow him to do it; The Minister for Railways: I did not say and therefore lie cannot do it. He cannlot that. do it because of the forces that control the Hon. A. MeCALLUMl: We know what lie Government, forces outside the party, forces left this party for; where he has lbeen ever that find the sinews of war for that party's sicclal indicates it. The hon. member campaign and control the Organisation. He has been putting up~ h)0ge35 and knocking cannot do it as long as he remains with them down all his life. But hie has not anis- those who are now his associates. I co%- ivered the two main issues affecting his own aider that the Minister showed bad taste In department, the two big points put to him resurrecting his attitude relatively1 to this in: the speech of the member for Geraldtoa party' at the time of the war. He said that (Hon. J. C. Willeock), as to ol(1 age pen- he left the Labour Party for the interests sioners. There is the case of the two old age of his country. There is no doubt as to pensioners with an income of 35s. jper week the interests for which he left the Labour between the two of themi. If some of their 1Pa rtv. family are out of wvork, those two old age The Minister for Railway's: That is wrong. pensioners are compelled to keep three of Hron. A. McCALLUM1: The Minister said their dependants before ally of their depend- that last night. ants are permiitted to get any sustenance. The Mlinister for Railways: No. Five of them have to be financed out of ol(1 d54 [ASSEMBLY.]

age pensions for two! Did the Minister to accuse the Minister of not having any answer that question? No! On the other sympathy with the miners. He would be aii hand, he put up 'len of straw and knocked inhunian monster if hie (lid not have sym- them down. He refused to face the issue. pathy With them, considering his faniily There was the instance I mentioned. I read history. But no member of the House has a letter disclosing howv a married man with levelled that accusation agalinst lim. Hie four children, two under 14 years of age, accused himself, and answered the accusa- and two over that age, was placed in all un- tion. He ade ulse of that Supposed ac- enviable position. Because the two boys over cusation in order to evade answering other 14 years of age were earning about £2 2s. a points put to him by niembers sitting on the week between them, they 'werc forced to keep) Opposition side of the House. That wvas the father and mother, the two younger child- simply in accordance with his usual prac- ren and themselves on that small amount. tices. We know the Minister; the members The father was not allowed to have his name sittiiig on the Government side do not knowv onl the sustenance list, and was denied tile hlini as we do. I have known him for a right of the pick-up. What kind of treat- quarter of a century. These are the tactics moent is that to mete out to huiian heings? lie indulges in; they have always been his And then the Premier gr~owls about young tactics. The Minister claimed to have been men not getting niarried. That is the treat- responsible for the passage of the Minerst mient lie inflicts upon them. Why dlid not Phithisis Act. I do not want to rob the the Minister give us information regarding Minister of any kudos applicable to him for such instances? Why does he deny such peo- having placed the measure on the statute- ple the right to sustenance or work? Why' book. He put it there in 1922 and remained does he compel young boys to keep) their in office until 192-4. The Act remained whole family? He would not answer that onl the Statute-book until we took office qluestion. On the other hand, he went round in 1925. It was then that we brought the subject and said lie had been accused of thec Act to light. It wits a corpse; all sorts of things that none of us knew any- it: was dlead. We breathed life into it. We th inig about. He (lodged answering the main found money necessary for that purpose. issues by methods of that description. We had to pass anl amending Act because a Moreover, lie singled out a new member of section was included in the main Act that the House for special attack and cheaply made it possible, if at mail was taken out of sneered at him when he suggested that thel the mines and could not fulfil the job offered meniber for Brown Hfill-Ivanhoe (Mr. F. C. him elsewhe-e in consequence of which hie L. Smith) should -himself finance the erection had to leave it, for- the State's obligation to of a battery at Ralgoorlie for £10,000. What cease for all time. We altered that section kind of cheap-jack politics is that? That aiid provided complensation. We made it a was the kind of answer hie gave to that holi. living statute and proclaimed it. Until then member. the Act had remained a dead letter, and it The Minister for Railways: Cannot you remained in that condition all the time the look pleasant sometimes? Minister was in office. The Minister is en- titled to what credit there is in placing the Hon. A. 2IeCALLt'M: I will please my- Act on the statute-hook and leaving it a self how I look; I wvill not study the feelings dead letter. Then again the main Act dealt, of the 'Minlister. The member for Brown with tuberculosis only, not with moiners' Hill-Ivanhoe made no accusation-I have diseases. It affected the man who was suf- onl taken the trouble to look up "Hansard" fering from tuberculosis and it was the the point-against the Minister that he had Workers' Compensation Act that the La- no sympathy with the miners. That suggecs- bour Government introduced that dealt with tion was a clear invention of the Minister. miners' diseases. We have cleaned the mines The Miiiister for Railways: The member hut not thoroughly even 11ow. for Brown Hill-Ivanhoe is pr-esent; lie can The Minister for Railways: You paid the deny it if he likes. premiumsq under the Third Schedule of the Mir. F. C. L. Smith: I (lid deny it. WVorkers' Compensation Act for the mining Hon. A. McCALLUM: Of course he companies. denied it, and told the Minister that he was Hon. A. MeCALLUM: Yes, to assist the putting np an Aunt Sally. I am not going induistry. [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.]45 455

The Minister for Railways: Under the The M3inister for Railways : When was Mines Development Act. that Paid ? Hon. A. 'MeCALLUM: Ye;, out of the Hon. A. MeCALLUM: When the Minister money provided by the Commonwealth loan took offie. for die assistance of the miners. By those The Minister for Railways: You know two Acts we bave largely, although not com- that your colleague announced publicly that pletely, cleaned the mines of that deadly lie would not continue to pay that susten- disease. -No longer can men go down the ance. mines conglhing out the deadly germs and flon, A. McCAILLM:; It "-as paid whomi ,spreading the disease amiong their fellow the Minister took office. workers. The 'Minister for Railwayvs: That is only Part of the story. The Minister for Railways: I wvish that Hon. A, 'MrCALLU21: I do not know wals correct. wrheni it was stopped, but you stopp)ed it. It Hon. A. 'MeCALLUIMI: I stated that die was being paid when we left office. It is work lies not been completely effected. Con- only during the last few months that you ditions are much better now than they were. have agreed to pay 7s. a wveek. Once men are taken out of the mines now, The -Minister for Railways: N.\o. they hare something better to look forward Hon. A. MNcCALLCMN: to. The Minister can deny it as much as You. reduced the cartage subsidy from is. a mile for fire miles lie likes, but his Government did apply the to Ud., so you halved thmat subsidy. You '21/ per cent. cut to workers' compensation abolished the rebate on low-gi-ade ore; you p~aymenits. Meetings of protest followed, abolished the free trial crushing of five tons and it was only after members of the Op- from a newr district:.o abolished the sub- position had added their protests that the sidy onl railway carting, and also the subsidy Government altered their decision and re- onl water sup)ply. That was not confined to frained from making the cuts. Kalgoorlie alone, but ap~plied to Uwalia, The Minister for Railways: I think . M1eekatham-ra, Wiluna and other mining dis- said that. tricts. The -Minister took those concesisions Hon. A. MeCALLUIN: No, you did not. away from the industry. You said that the cut had not been applied The Minister for Railwayvs: Time tr-ouble and we interjected that it had been. Your was we Could not continue to pay them. answer was that it had been done by the Hion. A. M1cCALLUIM: That is how the officers without your knowledge. Minister helped the industr-y. The Minister for Railways: The matter The Minister fom Railways: 1 am not was reconsidered and the decision not to denying what you sa.v apply the cut was made retrospective, su Hon. A. MeCALLUM : The Minister- that the men lost nothing. boasted of what he did; the few instances Hon. A. MeN~CALLUM_%: Yes, but it was I hare quoted also show what hie did. After protest had been made by representa- The MXinister for Railways: I am not tives of the inining electorates. The Min- ashamed of what I had to do, in view of the ister boasted of what lie had done for the circumstances. I could not do anything else. miining industry not only while he was a Hon. A. MeCALLLTM1: I am not conerned member of the La.bour Government but as a as to whether the Minister is ashamed or Nationalist Minister as well. The only defi- not; but I want the House to he clear on the nite instance he gave showing that he had attitude of the Government towards the assisted the mining industry was in corne- mining industry. I know that in this, as in tion with the erection of a State battery. other matters, the Minister has not been a In view of the enormous increase in tonnage free agent. The history of latter-day polities to be treated, it would have been astounding and of the Premier himiself show that he has had he not provided the battery. The Mimn- never been in sympathy with the mining in- ister has boasted of what be has done; I dustry, and has never given it any help. He want to tell him a few of the things he has insisted upon these coucessions being taken taken away from the mining industry. away from the industry. 'When he assumed office the sustenance paid The M1inister for Railways: Do you sug- to prospectors varied from Li to £1 17s. 6id. gest that you would bare continued the con- according to locality- cessions had you been here?~ Would you 456 456[ASSEMBLY. }

have done it, in view of latter-day circumi- time Minister endeavoured to mislead mem- stances? bers. 'Not once during his speech did he Hon, A. McCALL UM: 1 (10 not know Attemllt to offer a suggestion for helping what we would have done. I have often read the State out of the crisis confronting it. statements by the Mlinister in which hie re- AMllihe could say was tliat we would haIve ferred to the State as bein g in the same posi- to muddle through the best way we could. tion as an individual. He has said that the It is trute that he cited the offence of people business affairs of the State should be con- Jiumping off the trais nid dodging the pay- ducted in the ,anie waly as he would conduct 4 icnt of their 3d. fares. He took strong his private affairs. If at this itomient 1 had exception to that. mioney to invest, I would spend that money 'fhc Minister for Railways: I did not in some direction that -would give mne an say it in the way you suggest. assnlred and quick return. There is no other field of investmnent that wvould give the Gov'- lion, A. McCALLUMA: You adopted a erment a more qtueck or surer return thani miore violent attitude. You waved your the mnining industr 'y. There is nothing else armes about, wagged your head, and pointed to -omnpare with it. Yet that is the induistry your finger. You were much more em- from which the Governument have taken these lbhiitiC than I am. The House will agree Concessions! with that. He was in a bath of perspiration The Mlinister for Works: Who g-ave the all the while, with his emphasis. He came concessions ill the first lplace? back to it and repeated it during his speech. That was his contribution to the solving of Ron. A. MeCALTAfM: The Labour Goy- the world's problems. And last night we ernmenct did. had what I think wa~s the second contribul- Th'e Minister for Railways: You lose sight tion fromt the meciber for North-East Fm'- of the fact that other businesses are starving. malntle (Mlr. Parker) ;I think it was only Thle Mlinister for Works: Thle ec.ioesionls the second occasion on which he has fa;'- were given in 1.923 when the then Minister oured us wvith an expression of his views. for Mlines was Mlr. Seaddanl. T He, too, set out to solve this world'9 pro- Hon. A. 'McCATJ-t : Whiat aire von 10- blei, which lie said the Premier and the ferring to? The Minister for Works: The subsidy on Minister for Mlines had emphasised as being water supplies. ai world's problem to he faced from a -world- wide viewpoint, that it affected civilisation Hon. A, McCALLUi'I: It was when wre took office. 'We gave the indlustry that assist- the world ovler and so must be recognised as ance at the time the Workers' Compensation being world-wide. The lion, member sub- Act was proclaimed. I was at a eol'teience initted his solutions of this world-wide when that agreemnent was effected. The economic problem under three heads. First Minister cannot liut that over me. Trhere of all lie said we should saick all the girls may have been some suhsidy, hut not to the employed in Government offices. Then he extent. to which it was Operating after we contended tlint we should prohibit car took office. watchers, and in the third place. he declared Thle Mlinister for lRailways: I think v.on that parking areas should be arranged at are wrlong. railway stations. Those propositions were Hon. A. Me,1CALLUM_): During the whole the sumn and substance of his speech, and of the Mlinister's speech last igh-t, he dealt they represen ted his solutions of the world's with momny niatters that no one had raised, problems. and answered questions that he himself had Hon. P. Collier: That will make the pro- put, or framed in his own imagination. Not fessors sit up. once did hie offer any suggestion for dealing Hon. A. McCAIILLiIM Yes;, what a pity with the crisis confronting us at present. he was not at Ottawa! We should then The Minister for Railways: I seem to have had some results from that conference. have given you a lot of worr 'y. I think weC are losing the services of a Hon. A. MeG ALbUM: I am not WOry genius when the hon. member gets up only ing about the Minister at all. He -need not twice during his terni in Parliament. plume himself by thinking that he has wor- Mr. Kenneally: And presently we shall be ried me. I have made it my little job for losing him altogether. a minute or two to answer some of the Hon. A. MeCALLUMI: That was all Il points;, so as to putl the House right where could find in the hon. member's speech. [7 SEI'TEIDER, 1932.]47 457

Thle Minister for Railways: Even so, you knows, the value of his own currency. He need not attack himi personally. None of cannot trade with any confidence uinless lie its is iperfeet. knows what is likely to be the position. I M-on. A. MeCALLUM: I am not attack- am aware that it is possible to provide for ireg himnPersonally: I am merely referring exchange in some countries; hut it is not to the speech lie made and the three head- possible inl all Countries, and it is difficult ings unuder wich lie proposed to solve the enough for traders to do business in foreign world's problems. countries in enormal times. When we have The MAinister for Railways: I understood ain unstable exchain it frequently mneans you were going to solv-e the world's problems thle differenlce between profit and loss. Yes- by attacking the Sergeant-at-Armns. terday morning ELtable erussage froin London lion. A. MAeCALLUM: I amn not g-oing to showed how anxiously the situation is viewed subscribe to the idea that we should not dlis- by traders at that end, and how unstable is cuiss in the Houge the questions of Inonetary the present position of this continent. This policy- and excehange rates because it might cablegram, referring to an article in thle be held that wve leave no power5 to remiedy thle "inncial News,' in .London, says- mnonetary system and so shuld not atteliLpi rjij, Commonwealths Bank can be relied upoie, to discuss it. But wve certainly liare power wherons, the tradling banks could not, as re- to influence the policy, since the Preinier veint experiec has shoss-, to maintain a rate goes quite frequently to the Premiers' Coni- reasonably parallel to the market conditions. ference, where lie is reported to have put up So lonig as the outside banks take no arbitrary a fight in favour of thle exchainge being1 action, a. rise in thle rate is extremely unlikely; indeed the next move will probably be in the mnaintained at its present level. That eon- downiward direction, but thec change is not ference has to framec a polic 'y whichi is c~x- likely until the export season is well under lpeeted to put this continent back onl its eici- wax. libreuni, and submit to us for our endorse- The primanry producers, the Country Party, !nent or rejection thle lproposals and plans should be giigcareful attentioa to this. Is and schemes that it puts uip. So it will be umens 25 per cent. onl all agricultural peo- seent that we have power to influ~ence the ducts, Yet so filr no declaration has been) policy, for the head of this Government goes mnade in that regard. If the Governentu over there and should, while thee, speak goave an assuernce, if the tradig people for the State. The exchiange affects uts in of this community had ant assurance that every wvay, in every activity of trade and there would be no fall below a certaini fig- commerce is its influence felt. We can ure, it would give great heart to trade aid 110 longer say that the~c matters should lie stimulate business abroad. left to expertq, for they are brought more eloseely to thle people to-clayI than ever beforev. Hont. J. C. Willeock: Even if were ol Ever 'houly teas to think of them and discuss for three moniths. them, because the question of exchange is Hon. A. M~eCAJLU_1: Yes, it would let felt, not only by every individual in trade theem know something; the country wvants a beet iii every hocus, at every meal table, anid decla ration. whether the neal be served in a humble Cut- Time Minister for Works: Front wlionO tage or in a banqueting hall, thle exchange Hon. A. MeCALLUM: There is only one cannot he escaped. So this Parliament source. The Premier will he going over to should consider the suebject, and a polir-v another conference any dmsx now, aind a de- should be set out. Since the countryv has a claration should coime from that conference, right to know where tie Goverenment stand, speaking for tile Governmlents Of the coun- it would bie a great thing for trade and comi- try. It is a very dangerous p)ositioni we are melree if we could have a clear declaration iii. For the mioment noney is pretty cheap, in Parliament. Whatever we may think of hut amongst the money available is a lot of a maeiaged currency, whether wve like it or had mioney, hr which I enean enoney that may not ive in Australia have a mnanaged cur- be withdrawn at very' short notice. It is renecy to-day, and] as we are largely a print- liere onl account of the lhigh exchange, but nr producing State. anl exporting Stats, it the mioment the exchange fallIs that mioney affect usmre than it does most of thle otheer will be exported overseas. What will lie States. it is imlpjossilble for a trader saii- thle position in this continent when, that fae-torily to do buesiness overseas unless he happens? There is such an insecurity, 458 [ASSEMBLY.] such a lack of confidence here that the Talking of making laws to deal with cur- traders do not know where they are. They rency, I notice that in ancient times Aristotle cannot plan ahead. It is impossible for any exp~ressed anl opinion on it. lie said that plan to be made ahead unless we know the money existed, mot by nature, but by law. value of our currency, and what the exchange Those people who think that mnoney is likely to be. Why, the very tariff maybe cannot and should not be controlled, upset overnight by an alteration in the ex- Chat lawvs should not be imposed to change. No one can Say where he is. The regulate it, have an idea that nature exchange is the very foundation of any haes created money and currency, and scheme that may be set out. And whether that they should not be interfered with. we like it or not, we have a managed cur- It is the law that gives money its efficacy, rency to-day and( so, too, haes England. It and it is the law that says what shall be is not our batlance of trade that causes the legal tender. Aristotle further said that the exchange to be 25 per ceat, against uts, be- value of money depended upon the quantit~y cause the balance was £30,000,000 in our available. That opinion holds good to-day. favour last year, and indeed we have heaped Vrery few people wvho study the Situation uip such a surplus of money in England that will (lisagree that the price levels are con- it is questionable whether the Commonwealth trolled by monetary policies, and whatever Bank will be able to go onl buying it. And theo price level of the future may be will there is always the risk that something may' depend upon the monetary policy adopted happen. That England is managing her ex- by the great countries of the world. No change is proved by the fact that shte has longer will it be held that Parliament has created at fund of £150,000,000 to equalise no right to interfere. Professor Cassel, pro- the exchainge. But what is Australia doing - fessor of economics to the League of Nations, When first the suggestion was made tha t wve Geneva, when addressing the Londonu should have a managed currency, it was pre- bankers, impressed upon them the import- dicted that if that happened there wvould be ance of something being done and added-- chaos everywhere. But now, in order to give No further time should be wasted in listen- a sense of security and Stability, even con- ing to those false prophets whose resistanice serva tive England is determni dto manage to efforts to gain control of the monetary sys- twot has helped to cause, intensify and pro- her owii currency. Our- exchange is pegged long a most dlisastrous economic catastrophe. at 25. But who haes authority to peg iti At It is time the leading central baniks agreed to the moment the Commonwealth Bank is peg- remiedy the depression by declaring their in- ging it, hut there is nothing to prevent any tention heceforward to Supply the world SO one of thme private baniks from breaking abundantly with means of paynment that a folr- away. The ther fall in pric" would be impossible. As Commonwealth Bank has no legal long as the central banks refuse the responsi- authority' to fix the exchange. The bank has bility for the purchasing power of their money, assumed it nder the pooling arrangemnents, hunmaity wvill he ill the sanie situation as the but a private hank could break away at any passengers of ;v.liner of whicm the captain lias moment, and one bank, probably the most in- lost control. fluemiti bank in the country, is advocating It is no idea of recent date or of political and pressing for all alteration in the ex- colouring that advocates the control of cur- exchange rate. meat-v. The most important Commission The Minister for Works: For anl increase. that T suppose ever inquired into the mone- I-on. A. AfeCALLUM: Yes, they wvant anl tary policy recently reported to the Hous.e increase. Stability is the mai n thing, but of Commons. It was the MacMillan Comn- there certainly should be a declaration that mission, comprised of the most experienced the exchange will not fall below a certain Rnaranciers of the -world, and they advised figure, and that declaration should come urgent action. The report is worth quot- from those with powver to mia nage the ex- change, to fix it, which can be done only by To allow prices to be stabilised at approSi- the Grovernnments of the country. I know matcly the present level would be a serious dis- that certain people regard those who talk aster for all countries of the world alike, and] about managing currencies as theorists. the avoidance of suchm anl event should be the Those critics do not regard these things as prine olneet of international statesmanship. Our ob'jective should he so far as it lies within practicable, and they say it is something tile power of this contry to influence the in- ne'v. Hut of course it is not new. It has ternational pric le%4el first of all to raise been going onl all down through history. prcsa long wily above the present level and] (7 SEPTEBER, 1032.]45 459

then maintain them at the level thus reached faulted. The Premier said that America with such stability as canl be maiuiged. We had left the gold standard. That is not rtewnnieatl that this objective be accepted as the guiding afin of the mionetary policy of tis correct. Amierica still guarantees to pay in tountr. gold for all her paper currency, hut it is correct that Amierica, has established cu r- That has gone forth as the policy of the reiner with national scrtasits hacking. 'British nation, and I do not think many She has created hundreds of millions of people would disagree with it, But Aus- currency byv the backing of national security tralia has made no declaration. Yet the and shte has done for several hundred matter meqns everything to uts. Australia's illIiion, what MrT. Theodore suggested should overseas debt is exercising the winds of all lie done for £20,000,000. When Mr. Theo- O'n'erumncnts and all thinking people. Tt dore made his suggestion, critics character- is largely paid by our exports, and it ised it as unsound and said that chaos would measured by the price of exports, it has assuredly follow. Yet a huge nation like more than doubled during the last few yeairs Amnerica has done it and, so far as we can wVithout our having borrowed a singli shi]- learn, in the few weukis it has been in force, ling. There must be a solution of the pro- it has had sonic effect on the raising- of' blew mand -we must find it. This Parliament price levels. We seem to be afr-aid of such -shan10 play its part. The Premier, when attending the conferences at which these proposals. Much depends onl where they come fromn. If they come from our side of iproblems are discussed, should go there with a knowledge of the ideas held by members politics, they are condemned. WVhen they of this House. Because the power to remedy come from ether sources, they' are suipported. does rot rest with uts is no reason why w e T1'he report of the 'Mac'Millan Commission is, should not discuss the question. One thing in substance and priniciple, the same as wvas that the discussion has brought out i., thqF, given out by the Interstate Laibour Confer- declaration front the Premier that he is stil ence iii Sydney 12 months ago, with the pro- an adherent to the goold standard. He is poGsal1that it should be the financial policy' not alone in that, but it is patent to every- of this country. But we are decried aurl one that had Australia remained on the denounced; we are told that we a-re advo- gold standard, it would have defaulted long eating something fanitastical and unsoundJ. ago0. W~hat is the virtue of gold as the basis of Hon. J1. C. Willeock: And that was a currency? The Premier refuses to depart nations] calamity to be avoided at all costs. front it, thoughI most nations of the earthi are away fromt it for the nmomnent. The H~on. A. 'McCALJU'M: The theorists said teaching of history shows that gold as a that a National Government was necessary basis for currency is a failure, and has been in England to keep that country on the gold responsible for the crises that hlave occurr-ed standard. A INational Oovernment was from time to time. If we insist upon our formed, amid England could not be kept on currency being basied upon the amount of the gold standard. Within three weeks she those crises will recur ant1 was off the gold standard, and now we have goldh we possess, the report of the important Commission the lpeople will have to suiffer. Sir Archi- Allison, in his history of Europe, goes I have quoted saying that England should hbald so far as to say that the fall of the ]Ionian not return to the gold standard. Empire was due to insistence Upon a gold1 Hon. P. Collier: Winston Churehill sai standard for the country. That Empire she should not bare returned to the gold used to rely On the specie from the mines o' standard when she (lid in 1925. Spain and Greece, but the raines gave Ouit T Hon. A. AMcCALLL M1: Yes, lie said he and a crisis ensued. The effects on the was wrongly advised. He took the Roman Empire described hr' Sir Archibald advice of men whom he thought were Allison are similar to those we are experi- competent to advise, and he admits that encing. Members Of the Country Party whu a grosq error was made. Although the claim that they mtainly represent primlary Premier still sutbscribes to the gold standard, industry should be interested in what hap-_ it is patent that had Australia remained om' poled at the time of the fall of that grent it we would have defaulted, and had Dig-~ Empire and should endeavour to deviseP land remained on it, we would have de- wars and mieanls to prievenit a similar hap- 460 [ASSEMBLY.] pening to our Empire or civilisation. Sir globe -? Had there been no gold, would Archibald Allison Said- civilisation snot have existed? Rome, Saved in its utmost neced by an ex- lion. J. C. Willeock: Should we all die if pansion, sank in the end under a still greater gold were abolished? contraction of national currency. The supply Hell. A. MeCALLIM: It is absurd, but of currency for the old world liecanne inade- quate to the increasing wants of the popula. it is becoming a dangerous and a deadly tion. The mines of Spain and Greece front absitrdity. it the situation is allowed to which rthe chief supplies w-ere obtained at that di-ift, the collapse of civilisation is possible. period, were worked out, mnd so great was the Country Party tmenmbers should renietmber dearth of the precious metal that the currency that the primiaty producing countries wvere in circulation in the Empire at the time of Augustus, atnounting to £3180,000,000 had sunk thle fit-at to feel thie crisis, and are feeling it in that of Justiniani to £80,000,000 sterling. tmost. ThteY will continue to feel it mlost. As a consequence of so prodigious a contrac- Their ittdustries mre most seriously affected, tion of currency, debts and taxes which were and they siuffer niost. Agricultur-e has goite measured under the old standard became SO r-ight out. If we exempt thle muemlber for overwirning that tire na~itional industries were Beverley (Mr. J. 1. Mann) what ideas have rutined. Agriculture disappeared and -was suc- ceded by pastutrage in the filds. The great country miembers given to its onl the subject? cities were all fed front Egypt and the rev- Mr. Marshall: Did you expect aity? ealle became irrecoverable. Hon. A. McCALLIM: I congratulate the He said the national industries were ruined. hont. member upon thle ideas lie advanced, his Our two gt-eat national industries, v-heat independence and originality of thought. It and wool, are iii a very precarious position. wvas quite refreshing- to hear hini. I hope he He said agriculture disappeared. No one will develop his ideas. wvill deny that our agriculturall industry can- 31r. Browrn: Perhaps he got his ideas fronm not carry on much longer under present conl- the same source as you dlid yotiis. ditions. We are facing conditions almost -Mr. Marshtall : It would be interestiung to Similar to those lie outlined. Following knoxv the source front which you got your throughi history we can see hlow the dis- ideas. covery of gold has affected nations. Thle Mr. Bruown : Giv-e us Somnethting original. long depression that followed the Napoleonic Hon. A. McCALLUM: It is held that we wars was largely due to the inadequatc sup- cannot influence overses, prices. No one can ply of currency. There was insufficient to deny it is possible to itnfluence internal meet the requirements of industry cotise- prices. Mlembers opposite will say, as they quent on the industrial revolution, and not did last night, that our internal trade is until the gold discoveries in California and small, and the export trade of our secondary Australia from 1849 onwards (lid relief come. industries is also too small to count. it a pp ears to inc the wrouig- viewpoint is taken of thle gold discoveries in 1 As a result of the na tter. I asked the Comtnonwealth Califorttia and Australia, the world for 30 Statistician to Suplyl ale with figures idla- years enjoyed conmpat-ative prosperity. Then tive to the cotisunuition of Australian lpro- another depiresion arrived. That was re- duction within the Commonwvealth. I asked lieved by the chance discover 'y of gold in how mtuch of our prodnuction, was consunied South Africa, wshen there was again a rev-ival. hiete and how imtch was exported. These Must we sit (townt and wait for a notlier gold are the flgttres; for 1930-31. Our production discovery? Is that to he the only' solutiotn wvas £01.A701,000. Australian produce ex- of thle crisis? Cold as the basis for our por-ted was valted at £99,920,000, currency has definitely failed, and in failing and our consumption was valued at £49,780,671. The has indlicted untold hairdship upon millions petrcentage of the ]ionic consumiption was of people. Thle teachtings of i ndrtstr dle- mand that thete Shall be a change, although therefore 68.7. The value of gold exported, tile Pretuier is still plcdging hitnseif to gold w-hich is included in the above figutres, was as the basis. I hope lie wvillI alter his mind £12,185,6545, which was £8,622,049 more than mid rise his p~ositiotn at the next conference the arioltnt produced during the previotus to effect some alteratiotn in our outlook. At-c year. The total consumptioti, therefore, was we to udersta nd that hutman civilisation and £228,402,720, or 71.4 p~et cenit. society generally' would have been impossible Holt. Wv.D. Johntson: I doubt the analysis if noe gold hand existed in the tmake-up of the of the figures. [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.] 4616

The Mlinister for Lands: You should take The Premier tells me he may be called awaty out the value of the secondary industries. to a conference at any moment. I urge You know these are artiliciallv-inade prices. him to press for a declara tion, and to have Hon. A, MeCALLUM.: Everything around some legal stand taken to give authority to, us to-day is artificial. The only thing that the system that is adopted. The Common- is natural is that we, are alive. wealth Batik are in control, lint have no The Minister for Railway s - I question that legal -rght to control. They can be defied too. ait any moment. They have merely drifted Hon. A. MfeCALLUM1: This is our pro- into their present posit-ion. It has not been ductions and our consumption in all our in- given to thenm by anyone. No one should dustries. I admit that the moment we raise I)e left in that position. A few mna have our internal price level, the cost of produc- the right to say, "We think the amount of tion for our primary industries increases. Australian gold heaped up in PRnglalnd is But there are means of making that up. If endangering the Commnonweailth Bank; that 71 per cent. of our production is consuimed we should not buy Australian money that is locally, there is our- biggest narket. If we available in London; that we refuse to (10 can increase the price level for 71 per enrt.. it any longer, and that we intend to force of our production it wilt pay us handsomely the exchange back to normal?' Where would to complensate the export trade. our industries be? Their first policy would The Mfinister for Lands: There is a danger be to look after the Commontwealth Batik. in iniflating, prices. The financing of our industries is the re- Hlon. A. MeCALLUAT: The only' thing, sponsibility of Governments. The Govern- that will save the world, as the -Mac-Aillaip ment of Great Britain hare put through their report put it, will be an increase in pric Bill. They have created an enormous sn levels. to equalise exchange. Our Governments The Minister for Lands: What aire vou have no policy. They have made no declara- to do with the cuport articles where you tion and this country wvants one. Until have a preponderance to export? we get one there can be no confidence in our irade and commerce, and stagnation will Hon. A. MAeCALLUM1: When it comecs to continue. It will be impossible to trade or benefiting 71 per cent. of our production, 4cek business with any confidence such is we we would have to give compensation to our would otherwise be able to enjoy. export trade. That is done in many cases. Are -we going to drift on and do nothing. MR. WELLS (Canning) [9.55] : I have and] merelyv subscribe to the idea that because listened to the able address of the mem- gold is accepted as a basis for our currency for South Fremnantle (Hon. A. it cannot be altered? Why should we judge her the wrealth of the country by the amount -IeCalluni) and envy him his ability and of its gold reserv-! Gold has shown that his knowledge of public affairs in various it is; an easy commodity to corner. It can parts of the world. I am not going to let no longer he taken as the standard. The this opportunity pass. without entering a wealth of a country should be judged by strong and emphiatic protest against his re- the amount of the requirements for the marks concerning the Sergeant-at-Arms. humankind that it is capable of producing. Those remarks were absolutely unwar- The bank vauilts of a nation should not be ranted, uncalled-for, and out of place. accepted as indicating the wealth of that Hon. A. McCallumn: There was no per- nation. The happiness and contentment of sonal referenice in them. its people should he the basis, the deciding The Minister for Lainds: You gave the point as to the prosperity and the sound- rank of the officer. ness of the nation. I put that forward as Mr. WELLS: What 1 objeted to was an opinion that could be discussed, as it is the dirty inuendoes, contained in the re- being discussed the world over. I am marks thlat were made. anxious for a declaration as to the policy Hon. A. -MeCalliuin: Have it that way if of the country-n o the value of the currency. you, like. Somne authoritative statement should be mAn Mr. WELLS: I am not going to listen that action will be taken to prevent the fall to such remarks without entering an emn- of our exchange below a given figutre. That phatic protest on behalf of the returned would stahilise trade and industry, and give soldiers on this side of the House. The our traders heart that nothing else could do. hon. member talked about the silk suit, 462 462ASSEMBLY.1

knickerbockers and patent shoes worn by the people concerned. The sudden col- a gentleman who has rendered great ser- lapse in the price of our primary products vice to the State, the Commonwealth and soon after the Government took office the British Empire. The hon. member is 'brought about the present position. Of not fit to polish the shoes worn by the course the depression is world-wide and Sergeant-at-Arins. It was the most con- we are suffering as other countries are suf- temptible and cowardly attack I have ever fering. All the channels of commerce have listened to. becomle stagnated. We as a Parliament Hon. A. McCallum: Take it as you like; call do very little to alter the position. I explained there was nothing personal There are some things which this Parlia- about it. meat and the Conmmonwealth Parliament M1r. WEULS: I know the hon. member could do and that arc within the scope of explained that. our ability to (10, and to those things we Hon. A. McCallumi: The office is a use- should devote our attention. The larger less one. questions of exchange, the monetary sys- Mr. A'llLLS : That was merely a veneer tem, and the commercial and in-dustrial In cover the inuendoes. welfare of the Commonwealth and the Emnpire should be left to the larger Hon. A. 'MeCallui: You can blow your mlinds in the political arena. That was bag as much as you like; there was nothing so in connection with the great war. personal in what I said. The artillery had often to be brought to Mr. WELLS: If I blew my bag as hard break through the barbed wire entangl- as the hon. member blows his, I should inents and clear away impediments, so that .soon be a balloon. the rank and file could advance later. I fed4 The M-inister for BRailways- He cannot that the conferences recently held at Ottawa discuss any subject without being per- and elsewhere rep resent a gesture of the sonal1. righlt kind, indicating that the intellects of Mir. WELLS: The hon. member uin- the eivilised world realise that it is their -doubtedix' launched a personal attack. I duty to try inl some way to bring about the do not object to his discussing the expen- salvation of the Empire and of the rest of diture involved, bitt when he absolutely the world. I feel it is their duty to effect belittles a mani, and speaks of the occu- the reorganiisationi required. I believe that pant of this position as a full-sized man they are proceeding on right lines, and that wnlking about 'this House, I mnust enter ere long the results of the various confer- my protest. ences will he felt thr-oughout the Emipire Hon. A. McCallum: I belittled the and the remainder of the civilised world. office, not the man. Meantime T think we should apply oiuy Mr, WELS: He spoke of the office as energies in other avenues which will assist being neither useful nor ornamental. We us to get out of our troubles probably a can imagine the feelings of the officer in little earlier than is at present anticipated. qunestion while this was going on. I amIIglald to know that the Government in- Mr. J. 1. Mann: And( one who had not toad to re-enact the emergency legislation achancee to reply. which has been iII olperation during the last M r. WELLjS: It was a dirty and most rear or two. The Farmers' Debts Adjust- coutenmptible action, and ], join with other merit Act has proved itself an excellent mnea- members on this side of the House in sure, saving hundreds of Western Australian making niy sincere and earnest protest. I1 farmners froni having to walk off their hold- realise we cannot in this House talk our- ings, giving them an opportunity to go on thereby most pro1'- selves out of our troubles. T, too, must from year to year, and exPreIss mly regret A'ta wve are passing aly en-iabling themi, when the price of wheat through so great a depression, that we have recovers a little, to retain properties whicht in our midst honest toilers looking for otherwise they would have lost. work and unable to find it. It is a deplor- Hon. WN.D. Jobhnsonl: All this is macrely able condition of affairs. I am sure we all staving off the evil day. feel that we want to do our- utmost with Mr. WELLS: For Western Australia, at the means at our disposal to improve the any rate, the farming and pastoral indus- position of and nmake life more tolerable for tries are undoubtedly paramount. When the [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.146 463'

farming- and pastoral communities are pros- folhws, and had a pig- in the sty. Altogether perous, the effect is reflected on the ind-us- hie was dloing reinarkahly well. trial centres more quickly than it is from Mr. Wnsbrough: He is a lucky one, the prosperity of any other industries. If Mfr. Raphael: The only lucky one. only we can get the fanning and pastoral 11r. WELLS: ft is quite possible the"t industries on a sound and payable basis, all inny men placed onl small holdings in the the rest of the people in Western Australia outer suburban area would be enabled by will reap substantial benefits. It should be this means largely to augment their incomes the desire of the Government of this State T am strongly of opinion that the Premuier. to help as far as possible to reduce the when attending another conference in the charges levied upon those two industries, near future, should impress upon the other and in every possible way to lower tuxntio!i Uremiers, and onl all those engaged in di;- and tariff charges which for years past have cussing the affairs of Australin, the need for hampered them. Tf commodity prices do making a definite move to obtain a reduc- not lift (luring the next few months, T cer- tioa of our overseas interesit. The people tainly think the Cormmonwealth Government of the Common weath htIave done remarkably should continue the wheat bonus and tha~t well in their conversion loan, thus pointing- the State Government should continue to the war to the nations of thre world in that allow the carting bonuis to settlers far re- respect. The Australian people should now moved from railway comnmunication. make a dlemand that their overseas creditors Mir. Raphael: Are yvon speaking as a should also grant sonic relief in that direc- cockey, or as a politician? tion, It is no use to talk merely of giving Mr. WELLS: Four years ago I invested relief to people onl the land;.. wemust also pretty well the whole of my savings since get relief from our overseas creditors as re- the war in a 3,000-acre block at N\ewvdegate, gards interest rates. There is a good deal and I fear I shall have but little to show to he said about the secondlary indus- for it. Therefore I am not without experi- tries of Western Australia. I. am leased ence of coekeving. The Government should to know that dluring the last year or two endeavour to pursue as far as possible a the resources of the Souith-West have been policy which has been enunciated by nmem- materially developed. Butter factories are bers on both sides of the Chamber. The g-oing up; throughout the South-West, and member for South Fremantle (Hon. A. Me- are emiploy'ing a good deal of labour. Mo0re- Callum) mentioned it dluring last session, ovr, they are. now ill a p~osition to s51pply and( I think it was also mentioned by the a good deal of the butter requiremnents which member for Swan (Mr. Sampson)-the en. -were formerly net by importation trour the couragement of our Workers to settle on sub- Eastern States. urban blocks. This would be a good move. M.Nr.Raphael : All thiat will soonlbc and would afford considerable relief to nien stopped wthen Mr. Bruce conies home. onl part-time work. On days on which they Mfr. WVELLS: -MUCth might be uccoin- ,were not employed in industrial avenues, lplishcd in the way of secondary industries they could improve their holdings. They here if We could conitrol our- own destinies. could grow their own vegetables, and keep Not many Years ago-before Federation got pigs. and cows, thus largely improving their such a grip onl this ]lnd-we had butter face- Conditions and lessening their drafts on State tories, boot factories, and white-clothing fac- finnjes.z Alany' complants have been made tories empjloying considerable numbers of as to the conditions under which men have men and wvomen. To-day factories have van- been workung at Harvey and elsewhere. ished: they have gone to the centres of in- However, oniy a few weeks ago I was visited dustrial activity in? thie Eastern States:. I by a man who had gone with his, wife and agree with thre miany members who have children from South Perth to Harvey; and spoken oin the over-reaiching effects of the hie told me that hie hand no desire to lire in Federal Government upon the States.. We the city again;- that hie was in a far better should make the strongest possible effort to position at Harvey than when living in the regain our- status as at sovereigni State. Our eity and drawing sustenance. Be had a sovereignty has been filched from ia . It quarter of an acre at Harvey, on which he is time we took a definite stand to get onl ,was growing vegetables. He had plenty of ouir feet again, as reg-ards. political 464 -464[ASSEMBLY.]

independence. Hundreds of thousands Mr. M.NeLart-v: They are not to be eon- of pounds' worth of Eastern States pelled to do so. goods are still coining to Western 21r. WVELLS: f ann told that milk froml Australia everv vear. There are hiige imi- thle group settlemients. and elsewhere is being ports of clothing anid boots from the East. sold at 5d. or 6id. a gallon. Dairymen in I have no fault to find wvith the buyers of nay electorate say it is impossible to make the l-arge city emporiums for buying in thle dairYi ug pay if miilk is sold at under is. East, but the fact that they tire so buy-ing. or Is. 2d. a gallon. The reasonable objec- shows that 'Western Australia needs some10 tion they' take is against thle comnpetition protection againsit the transaction of its bus- a infrom milk produced by group set- iness in that manner. They frequently buty tlers woeefforts have been subsidised fromi a few thousand pounds' -worth of goods atl public funds, whereas the dairymen in my' reduced rates and clump them in the State. district have bad to build ill) their herds and As a consequence our workers are deprived develop theft, businesses out of their pri- vte funds. of employment. Quite apart from clothin,, boots and so forth.' I find now that beer is The Minister for Agriculture: You do not. suggest they -should have a mtonopoly of being brought across froml thle Eastern States thep trade? and put onl the inarket here. I thought the ITrI W UlLS : No. I a m putting f orwardl beer manufactured in Kal-goorlie or in their views oii the question and they con- Perth was good enough for our people. I sider the competition is unfair, in view of was astounded to learn thle amount of money the circumnstances I have outlined. I hope spent onl liquor here. I find that £E8,000 is the Minister will gi-ve their views considera- spent daily onl intoxicating liquor. I ain tion and that the legislation will prove satis- tnt posing as a prohibitionist or a temper- factory to all concerned. With reference aie- advocate, but to think that such an to local matters, T wanit to commnent on the amount is being spent daily at a tunie when inladequacey of the ferry service between mnen arc walking about thle streets ill-fed, Barrack-street and 11-ends-street. Particu- ill-clothed, and out of work, seems to mne a larly during the winter months is thle pre'- reflection upon the good sense of thle citizens. sent service unsatisfactory. The steam~er We should endeavour to encourage the use "Perth" is not suitable for thle service andl of local products. Frequently exhibitions it is tiame that better p~rovision was made,. arc held and demonstrations are given of the I understand the Labour Government bought use of locally manufactured articles. -M'v ex- a Diesel eng-ine for £C4,800. perience is that they fall flat after a week. The Minister for Works: We had to pay I know it is difficult to persuade our women- £2.000 duty oil it. folk to buy locally manufactured goods if Mr. WELLS: We have been payinig in- Eastern States articles can he bought at a terest on the amount involved for a nnmbeu ceapnler rate. Under suich conditions, it is of years, totalling about £1,500. If th- difficuilt to mnake people patriotic. If we cngine wer sold, tile Govrnment could ,could control our own Customs and protect construct two s9maller boats that would be far mnore suitable for the our secondary indlustries, it would be of bene- service. They should have a carrying capacity of about fit to the general community. Recently there 1R0 passengers and, with the extra was much trou~ble in the metropolitan urea boats, a satisfactory service could he maintained. regarding the whole-milk supply. I am I an]a lelsedi that the Government have at pleased that the Minister for Agriculture last decided to improve thle Causeway. I intends to introduce leg-islation dealing with realise that there is no p~ossible chance, in the industry. I am at a loss to know how view of the financial situation, of the orig- hie will improve thme position because comn- inal elaborate schemne being carried out, and petition enters into all industry and all bis- I think the work that is beingr undertaken mness, and it is extremnely difficult to control at present will meet all requirements for that element. It is hard to tell the milk meally years to come. It will provide a two- producer at 1-arvey or~ lWaroona that h1w way track along:side thle tramljine. I would mlust not send his milk to the metropolitan like the Minister to consider the extension mariket. It will be difficult to frame a incas- of the tramway loop to make it possible -ure that will eomply with the wishes of the for a double line to run righit across the iik producvers in tile inetropolitan area. Causeway. Thle l00o) in the centre of the [7 SEPTrEMBSR, 1932.]46 465

bridge occasions unreasonable delays. The diture Western Australia has derived little double line at the Victoria Park end carries or no benefit. The loss on the Common- an enormous traffic and at times two or wealth steamships was £8,000,000, Canberra three tramns have been hung up on the loop has cost nearly £13,000,000, the Federal in the centre of the Causeway. That in- Parliament House, exclusive of interest and vokves much delay. Last night, for instance, furniture, cost £670,000. a passenger travelling from the city to Hon. S. W. Munsie: And that is only a South Perth was held up for 12 minutes temporary building. on ioops during the journey, If the em- Mr. WELLS: That is so. Then we have bankjnent could be extended on the north- eastern side, it would provide a thorough- a Governor General with a salary of £10,000 Care that would meet all requirements for per annum, and yet the Commonwealth Gov- the next 25 or 30 yeard. T do not desire ermnent propose to reduce the pensions to to criticise the Government regarding the old people and invalids. manner in which they have dealt with the Hon. M. F. Troy: Well, you voted for tble unemployment difficulty because I realise Government. You voted for Nairn and for they have Jour their beat in the circuin- Pearce. stances, -with the funds at their disposal. Mr. WELLS: f admire the stand that T1here is one feature, however, that I con- 31r. Maimn has taken. But it does not mat- sider unfair. The man who has been thrifty ter whom I voted for, I sin speaking of the and saved a little money during his employ- Federal expenditure and the cutting down ment, is debarred fromt securing assistance of pensions. It is a despicable thing to re- -until the whole of his money is spent. That duce the pensions of aged and invalid per- means that the man has to become a pauper sons. In view of that) it is unfair and un- before he can secure work. The thrifty just that wve should pay enormous salaries man should be encouraged now as he was to people in high places. One of the judges before the depression. The man who has of the Federal couit has refused to have hisi squandered his money is assisted, but the salary reduced by so much as a shilling. The thrifty man is penalised under exist- Prime Ministers Lodge at Canberra cost ing conditions, and that should not be. £17,800, and the renovations to Govern- I want to support the remarks of soime ment House, before the present Governor members whbo hanve touehed upon the cost General occupied it, cost E74,971. Then of administration of Government depart -- they have a swimming pool which cost some -meats. I think this Government and the thousands, and they are now erecting a golf Governments of the various States could do house at a cost of somec thousands more. a great deal towards reducing the expendi- And we, the taxpayers in Western Australia tare of Commonwealth and State deparr- who have derived no benefit whatever from ments. I do not know that very much could these extravagances, arc called upon to pay be done in our State departments, but I our Federal taxes. The Federal Govern- think the cost of administration of the ment have been wildly reckless, and it is Federal Government is out of all reason. time a. definite stand was taken by the States I have here some figures which give an idea and an emphatic protest made against the of the lavishness of the expenditure of the enormons expenditure. Comnmonwealth Government. They hold no Mr. 'Marshall: I hope your Leader is tak- territory, and they derive all their revenue ing notice of you. from the States. When, 30 years ago, Mr. WELLS: I hope so too. At Can- Federation was established wve were told it berra. there is a staff of 93 gardeners, draw- would cost about £750,000 per annum. In ing- amongst them £24,237 per annum. 1912 the liabilities of the Federal Govern- When first the sales tax was imposed, tho ment totalled £6,351,000, the result largely Prime Minister said no extra staff wouild be of the building of the Trans railway arnd the required to collect it. Yet to-day the collec- Northern Territory railway. That was be- tion of that tax is costing £53,000 per an- tore they embarked upon the orgy of spenet> numn. Then we have Federal duplication of ing, when the cost of adminstration went up all thc departments. There is the Federil by leaps and bounds until to-day we have a Health Department, costing £290,000 per Federal Public Service representing £9,600, annum, the Federal Public Works Depart- 000 per annum. From this enormous erpen- ment costing £10,000 per annum, while in 1181 466 466ASSEMBLY.] the Forests Depart ment-actually they have the needs of reconstruction resuilted in tile per no forests at all-the Conservator is paid capita taxation being doubled. £,2,000 per annum. There is the Federil The same thing applies to the United Arbitration Court and the Federal Electoral States- and many other Federal depart- Department The demand for reform and retrenchment in meats, all maintained at great cost, whereas Federal administration and expenditure has the work could be done quite as well by the latterly become insistent in the United States. State departments. The Commonwealth During last session a Congressman for Indiana Parliament has encroached upon the Statels of 25 years' standing stated in the House, "Diuring time last two decades bureaucratic in every way. It collects about, £C60,000,000 power has grownm by leaps and bounds until in revenue from the States and pays thew Washington now dominates, regulates and con- back approximately £11,000,000. The Comn- trols tile nation, even in the most intimate mnonwealth collects in taxation from this eoncerns of its citizens. Local self-government State £3,32.5,000 and returns to us £774,000. is vanishing in the rush to let Washington do it. 'Priceless rights and privileges, which ear a stop to all this over- The sooner wve put f orefathers initended to lie exercised locally, lappaing, the better it will he for the State!s 4inc being surrendered without a struggle into and for all Australian taxpayers. Thea time vortex of federal authority. Every dniy this State and the other States are placed government is being removed farther and far- in an invidious position when they have to ther front the homle and fireside into the ten- tacl;es of the already overwhelming federal go to the Loan Council cap in hland fo: bureaucracy." every shilling required. Ion. M. F. Troy: This Government have Thant applies equally to the Commonwealth just lied from the Loan Council £500,000 of Australia. I commend those remarks to as a free gift. mnembers and sincerely hope that during the next few monthls we shall have a brighter Mr. WELLS; Y es, after the Common- and better time, not only in this State but wealth Government have collected £8,325,000 from us they give us back £500,000. And throughout the Commonwealth and the Em- not only do we have to go to the Loan Coun- pi-c. I feel sure that great things bare to cil for necessary mioney, but the Federal be done onl the other side of the world, but Government now tell us how we shall spend legislators in Western Australia and Aus- ft-olin can in some small degree assist those that money and are even dictating to us as who cannot help themselves. I congratulate to hlow we shall spend our own money. It has come to a fine pass when a sovereign the Government on thle work they have done during the last two years with the State has to submit to conditions laid down means at their disposal. I believe that by a Federal Government. It is absolutely right-thinking people of Western Australia humiliating. We have sold our birthright realise that every effort has been put forth to the Commonwealth, and the sooner Ave by the Government to alleviate the trouble better. Our commner- g-et relief from it, the and distress that exists and find enmployment cial houses and even our daily newspapers under the best conditions possible with the airc all controlled fromn the East. We have mneans: at their command. not a say in anything at all, for vested interests are dictating our policy. Federa- tion has never been a success, either in the THE MINISTER FOR WORKS (Hon. Commonwealth or in any of the other coun- . Lindsay-Mt. Marshall) [10.32] : At this tries of the world. Both in Canada and in late stage I wish to reply to some reninrk.-5 the United States the people complain about made by members opposite. I have listened F ederation. I have here a letter written for necarly, three weeks to learn something by a man in a high position in Canada. froi n members opposite to aidl thle country Ile is a native horn Australian, but has ill its present trouible, and there have been been resident in Canada for many years. three' sugg-estions, one from the member for After tabulating the figures showing the in- Mft. Hawthorn (Mfr. 'Millin-ton) to change creased burden of federation on the people the Government, o)ne from the mnember for of Canada, he summed uip with this state- Gmildfoid-Mlidland (H-on. W. f). Johnson) met- to put all the in wve ean on full time, and another from thle memher fur South Fre- This table is instructive inl showing that A. even allowing for the inerease in population mantle (Hon. MeNfCallum) to peg, the ex- aind pronduction, the demand of the people of c-ag.I do not agree with any oif the Can:rla fur national servics has in addition to si-gestions, but I wvigh to reply to some of' [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932. 46740 tile tteeits mnade br the nmenmher for South children. We arc doingf more than is any% Fitinantle to-niL~it. The Premier is in his other State, not only in Proriding relief work -"Vat lnd I ititt'titl to repeat whlit the member but in thle amount of sutstenance paid. When fotr South Frematntle said, Dealing with we look at the problem fairly, which it is pie-cework, lie read a lettci- fron a unioni impossible for sonic members to do, there calt soeretary at Northaim. who wvas a memiber of lie no dotuht that the Government have done l-eptattion~, denying certain statements that miore thani aniv other 0ov*etninent in Ails- I mrde here. Ile inecitioned that the Premier tralia acnd ciore, I helieve, than any' other had ,ince been to Xorthamn, hadI met the men, fiorernitoent in the world. 'What we bare anmd had. taken thema oflf piecework and put done, too, has beent done under the most tr 'y- thein on (lay abou r. Time Pr'emier is in his ing_ financial circumstances. The mencher for, -eri, allmidlhe denties hav1icir lne itm r stieli South W'erntle gave some figures. He said the Premnier had stated that last Ilion. A. Met allum: :lTe letter said that ryear we had A£1,750,000 of loan money and liv hcad done1it. [lint the deficit for the year was £1,500,000. 1ThC. A1 NI'-;TER FOR WAVltKS : Y'es, and The total of tlte two, lie said, meant that the that i.s time kind orfl' (1)twbiehI f stronly Presecnt Grovernment had received more loana idijecct. Memnbvr- opposzite areclt ex-plre moneyv tihan the Collier Government had had Stateiints hr' an N, individual tiid then ,tatv in theiir last rear. Of course tlce deficit was themn to the Ilouse as facts. not loan taociex- it wa,,s money provided in iron. A. 3k-Caflmi: Titer have -oine oi Io order to mneet the shortage of revenue. Be- dav work righit enioueh. ctuse of those statements I intend to give Thle IN ISTER FOR WORKS : Another somie figures. Thle net loan expenditure onl ,tatement mnade wasi a serious reletion onl ptmhlie wvucds, a-olrdinr to thle "cStatistical mccccmchia onl this a~de of thle [lou1se. The Abstract." has hoell as follows:- A-i nister for Ril war's was claiming, titat £ 1928 4,654,610 msembers on this side were not devoid of the 11 1920l 4.372,269 Jil of human kitidness, ats hadl been ,tllt'getl 190 31,693.051 hrN ielilers opposite. Thc e nei for- 8ut F'remmantle said it, h-believed the Alin- The -averagze for- the three years wras b-teri did possess sonmc ol' [1e miilk of huitami C.240,000. in thle n~ext two years the kinkdness, It that lit courld ntot exervise his, anlioutits were- ,ymipatty while lie was witit the par-ties onl £ 1931 1,750,263 this, side of thle Rfouse. T[lhe insinuation wvas 1932 thot metmbers otc this side, with the excep- tion of tile Minister for Railwrays, were not Ti the three years 1928-30 the Labour Govern- doimv_ a fair thingo Ity thle workiers of tile moeit had( t average- of £2..680,000 more of tte Duriing this Ses.S In akPrevious loan itoicer to Spend tlian we hare had inl debiate, I p-are certain figures. and thce- hare time hcIst two rears. not been replied to. Yet tmisleading state- Mr.x lennemmllrv : Lack of i-cnihtle-. fnents; and lies hare been inditiged in. 1.took The AiINIS-TEU FOR WORKS: It i-i noct thle information fromt "The Australian 'I 1it. ti aic r lack of con1fidem tce. Tice ILabIonr Worker'." copies of which I have before tiie. (lovm mmmcwtt spent tile moner, but the ,y dlit) T do not intend to reIply to those statements nlow bco-row it. It wtas takenr troic trti-t auii . Thle member for South Fremnantlc funds. I t wras to ice borrowed in future actd s;aid I did not allow for tile child endowmtent restored, 1)11t it ha4 not livnei hborrowedl r et. ,elieie in New South Wiales, that a man re- That has, been onze of the irreat diieultics. ceictid Ilayinidft for a child iiii to 21 years at (lorerntecit hare hadm fte rate of 5s. a week. If any memnber turns with which the pcresetr to contend, that the trust fluid.- were not utp the Comnmonwealthl Year Book for 1931, only%depleted lint werec it rtrears and have lie can see just what tite child endownient provision is. The Act iwas passed ill 1-929 to be bucilt upt. The average revetnue during-_ amid ])rovided for is. a week after the first [lie last three rears oh' thIe Ltbuim- Govern- chlId, not before. 'otwithstandinug that, the nient was X9,8312,61O a rear, while for the1 Gonvernmuent of Western Australia are pro- pt-enetlt Gorertnimect it has- been £8..341h,640. vidinw more work than are the New South In other worc. we have hcadi £4,161,500) a Wmlrs Govern1ment. event including child enl- cear hes,, to speind Oil tile People of time dowmetit. except for at mail who has six State-, lesto six-ridl itt findlicig work forl the 468 468[ASSEMBLY.]J people and assisting to inet the requtests of work, but they look the fees out of his fort-- People requiring work. The story does not iigls pay. finish there. In 1931 the present Govern- Ron. J. Cunningham: You know that is mieat paid by way of sustenance £436,139, not right. You reduced the rate on water and in 1932 £C643,996, a total for the two supply per acre,. and you knew when youi years of over £1,080,000. InI addition, we have made the reduction thatl you could nlog get had exchange lpaynwnts to meet intoves the nectessary revenue to pay for the wvory. amiounting- to £951,000 which the other Gov- YOU khaV you could not pay the annual ernment did not have to meet. We have interest o" the capital outlay for 12 months. had less money to handle than rtme previousi Honu. IL. F. Troy: Spoik to the victors! Government had for three years, amiount- The M,%INISTER FOR WORKS: Wher- ing to £5,171,000 p)eI annum., WhTlen onle ever pbssi-ble the Goerrnent, have reduced anavises the position and looks at it fairly% tie charges on primary pj~rdueers. awl squarely, one can only admit that the Non. J. Cunningham: .Inst a momtent. Government have done their job wvell. You know what you (lid. HRon. M.LF. Troy: You have a great retord rho 14INISTEIt FALR WORKS:- We have with 6,000 imien d]own and out. done everyihing we could to reduce the cost The %1INiSTEl1 FOR WORKS,: When to ordinary producer;, and we reduced the we came into offic e there wvere thou~sanuls of kvater rates. men walking round the country with swus lIon. .1. Cunningham: What about Alwils tthe victors? on their hacksz, and single men could not get any sustenance. We have provided sus- The MHINISTER FOR WORKS: We re- tenance for single men, and yet members op'- (laced tie mauxinmum rate from is. iii the posite say wmeare grinding down the ;vorker, pounnd to 6d. tn 1927-28 the wheat yield of thme State wvas 1Hon. J1. Cunningham:t. You did nothing ralued ait £9,921,039, and in 1930-31 it wvas of the kind. valued at £5,973,001). InI the former y ear The MTINITSTER FOR WORKS: In eon- wool was valued at £5,520,077, and last vest' neetion with the scheme the bon. mnember it was valued at only £2,516,62.1 In other is talking about, if the 6d. an ace had been, words, in wheat and wool the averagre incomeI paid a lprofit of about £C2,000 a year would of the people dropped by £6,773,000 per have resuilted. annumi. Compare that with 1927-28 ! T hat lion. J1. Cunningham: What stout the ex- is thle problem we have to fae. it is 11n tensions of the goldields water supply? Youn k-now what yoii have clone; given spoils a question of anything this Government can do, for we are doing all that is humanly pos- to the victors. M1r, SPEAKER: Order! The boa. mealj- sible. her can reply when the Minister has sat Mr. 1Cennealhy : A very poor poib)ile. d*own-. The 'MINISTER FOR. WORKS: What The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I did the lhon. membher's Government do ? asked for certain information that I might They want us to put all the men on full give it to the House. The water rates were time. What would lie dlone with the re- reduc-ed in 1923. inainder? They speak of onl 'y £600,000 Hon. J. Cunningham: And you put thorn spent on sustenance. Let us make it a mul- LIP. lion, and put everybody into aI job. Why di The -MINISTER FOR WORKS: They members opposite want men] employved 1,11ll u-err reduped hr the Minister who now holds the position of Minister for Mines. That time? They ;vant to keep the unions to- continued in operation until July 12 months gether. That is all. They want to get the later. 'Where was the money taken fromi? union fees out of the men that are on full The suim of £45,000 to £47.000 was taken time, seeing that they cannot get the fees out of loan funds. and put into revenue, and to-day. What happened before we earne into so inflated revenue. office? If a man wanted a job in Govern- Bon. JI. Cunningham: The money is now incnt employment he had( to hie a umeumber being taken to make up the deficiency. You of "our party," a muernher of a trade union arc charging per acre for the extensin,, with his dues frilly paid up. They did go rates ranging froin 10d. to 6d. I san refer- so far as to give a manl a otizt rin!Z to the whole of the extensions. [7 SEP'TEMBER, 1932.3]0 469

The INISTER FOR WORKS: The Government there are giving 9,000 single figures show that if Gd. per acre was paid mn who are out of work 6s. for rations ini by everyone there would be a reasonable one week, and i the following week one profit. day's work at 15s. 4d.,. making a total of Ron. J. Cunningham: But von are not 21s. 4d. upon whicvhi they are expected to getting it. live for two weeks. The MINISTER FOR, WORKS: In the Miss Hlolman: That was a big increase on case of the goldfields water supply the Gov- what the 'Moore Government did. It applied erment had no option but to do what they to 13,000 men at one swoop. did. The concession was rightfully made. Mr. Kenucalir: 'I the tine of the The mining industry was languishing and Moon' B;overnnment. mprn had to travel re-mircd encouragement. All Governments about 20 miles to get any, sustenance. have given such concessions. To-day the The 3NINSTER FOR WORKS: In price of gold has enormously increased. We Queensland. with a Labour Government in could not under any conditions take the oico. 13.000 single mnen receive Cis. in money out of loan funds, because the Lonn rations for one week and I6s, 4(d. for a Council definitely stated that loan funds had day's work in the ensuing week, or a total. to be used on wvorks that would return inter- of 21.-. 4d1. for two weeks. In this State, al- est and sinking fund. though Ae have not (lone all we would have Hou. J. Cunningham: Why did you make liked to do, we have dlone all we can do. the reduction; you are not getting rev- Mliss. Holmnan: Our single men get only enue. IS. Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask the hon. The -MINISTER FOR WORKS: We are member to cease interjecting. not working under the same conditions as The MINISTER FOR WORKS:- Not- ap ply in Queensland. withstanding what members opposite have Mr. Wansbroulgh: Half of the men are said, we on this side of the House have Just not getting either sustenance or work. as much of the milk of human kindness as The 3IIYISTER FOR WORKS: I am they have. not aware of that. Mr. Kenneally: You hare a strange way Mr. Kenneally: You close your eyes to of showing it. that. The MINISTER FOR WORKS: We Hon. . Cunningham: The single men in are doing all we can. No one would be more pleased than I if we could put the right IKalgoorlie get nothing. men on full time. Owing to the fact that The MIfniSTER FOR WORKS: The so many men 4ire on sustenance, and this Mlinister in charge of unemployment has accounts for a big proportion of the de- replied to all those points. ficit, it is both the policy and the duty of Mr. Corhoy: It is the old Yankee game the Government to take as many men off of passing the buck. sustenance as possible and give them real The MNINISTER, FOR WORKS: I work to do. That is what we are trying think I have dealt with all the questions to bring about. The other night I referred that have been raised. During the debate to the number of men being employed on members were very reasonable in their at- part time. I have had a return prepared titude. Indeed, they rather surprised me showing what married men receive in emn by not finding more grounds for criticisug ployment on public works. The average re- the Government. All I have done is to inunemation they get is £2 4s. l.1d, per week. reply to the few questions put up which Mr. Kennealvy: A magnificent sum. concern my department. The N7INISTER FOR WORKS: No Mr. SLEEMAN: I move- other State in Australia pays that amount That thie d~ebate be adjourned. in such circumstances. Mr. Corboy: Surely you are not proud Motion pat, and a division taken with of that. the following result: The MINISTER FOR WORKS: No, Ayes But we have only to compare this with N oes 22 Queensland, to stand out well. There was a change of Government in that State a Majority against "3 little wbile azn. and T have read that, 4he 470 470[ASSEMBLY.]

Arics. had not earned anything for many rnunths Mr. Collier Mir. Nulsen Mr. Corboy Mr. Raphael prior to getting the one small job. Another Mr. Coverley ,%Ir,Sleeman Mr. Cunningham Mr. FP.C. L. S 1i11th ease is that of a man receiving 14s., and I Miss Honman Mr. Troy consider this lail to be thle worst treated off Mr. Kettoeally Mr, WFansbnonigh all. Tine unfortunate mian was able to get M r. Marshall %Ir.Willeoch Mr. MceCallum Air. Withers a job working on coal at the Fremantle gas- Mr. Millngton Mr. Wilsonl Mr. hMunsie (Teller.) works. Ile earned 25s. at that work. Al- though lie hadl earnied nlothing for thle pre- Noes S. Mir. Angelo Mr. North rious 12 months, the departmentl stoppceI Mr. Brown Mr. Parker the 14s. for that week. .1 have been to the Mr. Church N1r. Patrick Mr. Davy M~r.Plesse officials several times, but so far thle mnatter Mr. Doney Mr. Richards Mr. Ferguson Mr. SanipsortIl has not lbeen rectified. Therefore tine LPre- Mr- Latham Alr. Se:atdaii or syic- Mr. TLindssy Mr. .1. 74. S rnith inier's. assertions as to satisfaction Mr. H. W. Mann Mr. wells with pathetic treatment f.ire of no use. Then there Mr. J. I. Mann Mr. Barnard Msr. INicLarty (Turilr.) is thle ease Of a manl With a wife and nline Sir James Mitchell children, three of tine children being, over 14 Motion thus negatived. years of age. In respect of tlhese3 three the department do not recognise any respotisi- MR. SLEEMAN (Fremantie) [10.56] -bility. There are six children under tine age Since this rlebate its been proee ding, the of 14 years. The father is anl invalid pen- Press have shown anxiety that it should he sioner, and as suich hie is likely to he getting finished, presumably in order that thle loy- I.5s. in a few weeks from now; ait preseint erninent mlight proceed with the o'ther bus- lie is receiving. 17s. 6d. I claim that the pen- mness of the session. That would I)c a good sion is giveni to the mail for his own keelp, idea if' one could find in the Govemlinents ;ind not for thle benefit of the State Covernl- programmie anything likely to bienefit the ucent, not to enable them to reduce susten- counltry. If that were so, I would sit down mice payments For the rest of the family. without saying another word. H O .vl ) I Six of thle children are unieriployed. Up to have perused time Speech, and have ide all two days ago the ian had been able to obltain possible inquiries, and] cannot see any, good only 2&s. per week for the keep of his that is likely to result from the Govern- wife and their six young children. I was re lildit's proposals. 11t would have been bet- sponsible for obtaining 7s. additional for the ter had the financial emiergencyv Iegislation nin During thle current week I have done not been p~assed at all, and I ho1)e that it Inv est for him with the department, and will not hle re-enacted. Thle most im portant haemaged to get the other 7s. This means question now facing Parliament isu inemplor- that instead of 28s. hie will receive 35.3. for mient. Last night the Minister cvino is con the keep of his wife and of six children. erned questioned one(, or twos tateients For children under the care of thle Child made from this side of the House; i Fact, lie WXelfare Department, 9s. per head per week described them as mnere hearsay, or asin sr supposed to be allowed. However, our hsim ne srpig hes-prn reet. Now I wish to bring befor Government are or two eases which are not fron hearsay hielping- to starve these children, because it ~'is impossible for thle family to live oni tle but for which I can vouch. On tI le Sppl amouint of sustenance granted. t do not Bill I mentioned two cases in wht ice hadre think any Minister, or any hon. mnenmber op- been nnable to effect anything. Thel'e-posite, will sin- that 28s, per week is a tf ioir, during the course of that de batesaid ficient ainonnt for six children and their that I had never brought before either the mother to lire ont. Onl top) of that, there are Child WVelfare Department or thi eUnenl- the three children over 14 years of age. T ployment Board any ease that had not 'X thin is done for them. been satisfactorily settled or symnpa nthetieallv considered, I returned to the officials Mr. Kenneally: They are not supposed with the two cases, hut uip to date nothing to eat at all. has been done. One was the ease of a manl Mr. SLEEMAN: No. Now there is a receiving- 21s. Because lie earned a few shil- stew departure. A few weeks ago represen- lings outside, a deduction was made front his tatives of the Unemployment Relief Board sustenance, notwithstanding the fmet that lnr* visited Fremantle and suggested to the [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.] 471

Single Men's Relief Committee that where The -Minister for Lands: I did nothing families were drawing the maximum of of the sort. I will speak for myself. £:2 9sa week, the committee should re- Mr. SLEEM1AN: Then there is the posi- train from giving further assistance to chit- tion of single girls. I know of an instance dren belonging to such families. They in which a widow is drawing the old age claimed that £2 Os. was the maximunm that pension. Her child, 18 years of age, ap- should he paid to any family. To the proached the department and asked for the credit of the Single Men's Relief Commit- single girl's allowance. She was asked why tee, it must hie stated that theyN turned the she did not get work. We know that no request down flat. and said theyw~ouldideal work is available. We also know that the with each application on its merits and de- old age pension drawn by the old lady is cide whether or not they would grant fur- insufficient to maintain herself and a jrl ther assistance. Apparently the t'nut- 18 years of age. The pension was never ployecl Relief Board say, that if they c-an- intended to he used to maintain a family, not get it 0110 way, they wvill get it an- hut was mierely' to provide for the pen- other way. They have adopted the atti- sioner alone. f am satisfied that it the tude that as the Single Men's Relief Com- girl could get a position, she would inot at- mnittee will not refrain from giving addi- tional sustenance to children over 14 years tempt to get sustenance fromt the (Jovern- of age, they themselves will deduct the as- ment. The premier says that the single sistance granted to children under 14 years men, shoulId mari-v t heiv girls andu-o ob- of age. T have a letter sent by the board viate the necessity for sustenance. Not- to a man who was drawing the maximumi withstanding the heroics of the Minister and whose children had received a little for Works to-night, the Gjovernment have relief rroin thle eonan'ttee, consistingr of a been sending men out of the country on smaill quantity of rations. The letter in- starvation rates and men have returned cluded the following:- fromi 1'indalnp "'ho have earned 10s. lid. for a week's work. How can a man earn- I hare to in forml yol. that your sustenanfle ing that meagre amount enter the matri- gran~t fromx this diepartmnent will be a5 s. a from the 20th Augus~t, f032, owing to children monial market? over 14 %ears of age drawing . . . . from the Mr. Kenneally: There is a big oppor- iaiunigrant homne. One over 14 years of age tunity for the display of that milk of hu- onI ' is allowed. man kindness that was spoken about last That is tile HCeV scheme. Because the com- night. mnittee would not agree to the boa rd's su- .Nr. SLEEMAN: 1f there is ainy milk -it gestions, the latter are prepared to starve Iinan kinidness ii' Ninisters, they have an the younger children. Does the Minister ohplortun i t y to do somethinzg, now thatI for Lands sanction that sort of thing? The have drawn attention to these instances- Minister does not answer? Silence gives The Attorney General said that Opposition consent! memibm's claimed to be the only possessors of The Minister for Lands: T tell you that the milk of liininan kindness, but the first we are doing more than your Government suggestion of that c-nme from the Govern- ever did. mnent side of the House. There is another Mr. SI.FEMAN For ins pairt, [ tell the section of the community that is suffering. Minister that what the Government tire I refcr to children who, perhapq unfortun- doing is a dastardly ithing. All that the ately for themselves, have been able to save F'remnantle Single MAen's Relief Committee a few shillingsa. I know of one instance in have supplied to the children over 14 years which a child had to open his money box of age has been .5s. worth of rations. The and spend his little savings before his par- relief board say, ''if the Fremnantle come- ents could secure sustenance. Does the mnittee will not starve the older children. Minister agree with that sort of thing? I then, by God, we will starve the younger hope the instances I have cited will be in- ones.'' It is a standing disgrace to the vestigated. I have not been able to get any'- Gotvernment to allow that sort of thing to thing done so far. If the position is not be done. The Minister must know of it. rectified, I shalt have to make another at- Mir. TKennecally: The M1inister admits hie tempt when the Estimates are before us. does. Mr. Kenneally: You are an optimist. 472 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. SLEEMAN: The Minister for Rail- have to come. I have approached the Pre- ways said last night that definite instruc- mier and the Chief' Secretary' onl a. certain tions had been given that where the father matter, but have failed to get satisfaction. was suffering from ill-health or inflirmity his In my opinion, it is a case of repudiation. son would be allowed to work out the sus- On a certain date in 1905 two men joined tenance on his parents' behalf. When the the Public Service. When they retire, one is sewerage wvork was commenced at Fremantle, granted a pension, but the other is told hie I was successful in securing the ernploynseiit cannot have one. Both men were made per- of a son to work out the sustenance for his maneiit onl the same day, but they are treated father, but lately when I made a similar differently when they leave the service. I .application, I was told there was no chance approached the Chief Secretary, who in- of a boy being placed on the job because formed meclhe could not get past the Public such a practice would become the rule and Service Commissioner, who had ruled that would become too prevalent. I do not doubt one manl was not entitled to a pension. the Minister's statement as to his intentions, The Minister for Lands: I suppose they but what he indicated wvas to he done is not were in different branches of the service. being carried out. Now the Mlinister i, Mr. SLiEEMAN: No, they were in exactly aware of the facts, I hope that lie will see the same branch and the sameo department, that effect is given to his instructions. Last and both were made permanent on the same night the member for North-East Fremnantle day; yet one ets at pension and the other (Mr. Parker) complained that the amount is refused. of the dole, as he called it, was too great, The Minister for Lands: J suppose one because some in receipt of it had indulged was a departmental officer andl thle other was in tickets in crossword puzzles. I have been onl the wages staff. wonidering whether lie is the nigger in the woodpile with regard to the latest develop- Mr. SLEEMNAN: No, they were both in ment. We now find that instructions have the same class. Here is the reply I got from been issued that local governing bodies ar3 the Public Service Commissioner- niot to take any fresh registrations and that Dear Sir,-Re Ex-Warder J, J. O'Connor. men are to be put onl the ration ticket. Thle Chief Secretary's Department has w.onder whether thle member for North-East handed to ale for at tent ion your letter dated Fremnantle whispered in someone's ear and(. 97th Jafluar addressed to the Hon. Minister contrll1Ing ga0l5, Whm-em you request onl be- whether, because he knew that someone hadt half of Ex-Warder O'Connor that lis aclaim indulged in a few crossword puzzle tickets, for superannuation, whirl, was dealt wi4th and the 'Government deteninined to find at disallowed by the Governor in Council in Sep- teinber, 1930, be again reconsidered with a way out of the difficulty by not allowing view to obtaining another decision in favour men to work on sustenance and by r e- of Ex-Warder O'onr quiring them to be put on the ration ticket. For your information 1. may state that the Time and time again have women come to matter of Ex-Warder 0'Conor' claim for tie and told mie that if thex*' had the equiva- superannuation was dealt with and finalised by my predecessor some considerable time before lent of the ration order they could do better I assumed may present office, and that tile re- with it than by having the order itself. Th'ley cords disclose the following facts, viz.:- tell me that if they go to soale shops with a1 (a) That in the first instance the claim wast ration order they are charg-ed if]. or 2d. considered by thc Pensions Board, more than they would] be charged if they which was of the opinion that in light Then, with the ration order of admitted facts the claim was not went with cash. maintainable. there is no chance of their getting any (b) That after the Governor in Council had clothes at all. Even with the sustenance they disallowed the claim the Civil Service have to starve themselves in order to get the Association and 'Mr. A. Mc~allum, clothes they require. It seems to mie that M.L.A., separately took up the matter unless something be done to allow these peo- with iny predecessor. ple to handle a little money, the next thing- (e.) That !in compliance with the request of "e shall have will be the unemployed joining the Association niy predecessor again that new sect, the Nudists, because they' will saibmitted the claimi to the Pensions Board for its further consideration in not be able to get any clothes. I do not think the light of contentions and argu- the Minister would like to see a branch of ments put forward by the Associa- that sect started here, but T am afraid it w~ill tion. [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.]

(d) That the Pensions Board, after giving That was the opinion of Mfr. Justice Draper the mnatter such further consideration when he was a member of this House. It original ais requested, adhered to its has been the fauilt of Governments that when opinion. a mail of a pen- (ej That thereafter, in view of thre dis- they saw a chance to deprive allowance of his claim, Es-Warder sion they did not hesitate to seize it. 1 have O'Connor was granted and, accepted been to the Premier, the Chief Secretary and Sireial] retiring allowance, and did the Public Service Commissioner without not proceed any further with his claim any satisfaction, and I hope it will not be for superannuation. necessary for me to move in the House a I1 do not know if I bare any authority in mnotion atirmning the desirability of grant- the matter, but assuming that I have, I think that in the circumstances above-mentioned it ing" this itniti his 1.enlsion. 1I understand the would not oaly he improper bitt alsu would be Public Set-vice Commissioner is a servant of unreasonable and ttnjustifable for me now to the House, not of the Governruent, and in. reopen a intitter which, after very careful con- order that I mnay get juistice for this man I sideration, had already been dealt with and mnay have to miove a motion, although I hope finalised by mny predecssor. it will not he necessary. Quite a lot has The Chief Secretary will admit that this is a been said as to how to get over our economic most extraordinary case- Certainly the troubles. All will agree that we are not Premier has admitted that it is a remarkable going to get rid of unemployment by the ease, and when I asked himl what could be lengthening of hours. 'When the Government done about it, lie practically said nothing came into offi ce, one of their first actions was to scrap the 44-hour week and get back to could he done. Proof that thiese two muen thle 4$-hour week. I cannot understand how joined the service on the same day will be any body of mnen, let alone Cabinet Ministers, found in the Blue Book for 1905, where could thiink that by increasing hours of it is shown that they were both mnade per- labour they are going to abolish uneinploy- manent officials on the 1st January of inent. They will never do it by those means. that year. The reason given for the Even Mr. WVillianm Morris Hughes has anomaly is that the one was properly wakened li) to the position and is now advo- employed, whereas the Other was not. It is cating the shottening of hours in order to claimed that the appointment of one went mneet the unemployment position. Inl these through Executive Council, but that by some days of labour-saving, devices, with men omission on the part of the then Minister being thrown onl the labour market as a result thei appointment of the other never went of the new machinery, the only thing0 to rio is to reduce the numiber of hours a man before Executive Council. And now after wvorks. If that he not dlone, we shall always all these years of service this man finds that: have the unemployed with us. The Govern- through no fault of his own he is debarred muent take a very queer view of the matter. from receiving a pension. The best way I At the elections they said they' were going to can sum uip tile case is to quote from~ a find work for all, and make everybody speech delivered by Mfr. Justice Draper when prosp~erous. Yet their first action was to ex- lie was a member of this House in 1910 in tend the 4-4-hour week to 48 hours, which mouving for certain papers relating to pen- they said would reduce the number of un- sions. The lhon, member made this state- emp~loyed. Only to-night the 'Minister for ment- Works wvas te~lling us about something If they refused to give him a pension Merely being dlone in Queenasland. Even on the because he is not able to enforce it in a court Ministers own figures it works out bet- of law they are not following the principle of ter than obtains in this State where justiee which should prevail in a British corn- only Ts. a week is given to a single miunity. I could well understand some South man, and that only in certain districts. We Alimerican Republic desiring to repudiate a lia- have heard that 7s. is paid in Perth; 5is. is bility; but it is difficult to believe that in Western Australia. we should fiud a. Govern- paid in Fremantle;, in Bunbury I am told the ment seeking to evade their liability upon the amiount is lesq, and in other parts of thle mnere pretext that, although a man is entitled State I believe nothing at all is paid. Tile to a pension, yet as he cannot bring an action Minister and enforce it in a conrt of law they will not for Works, by quoting Queensland, give him one. I think brought himself out on the wrong side of the ledger. There is somethingv that [The Deputy Speaker took Mhe Chair.) should have been dlone years ago, though It 474 [ASSEMBLY.]

adilit it is useless to cry about its not hay- ence to i nquaairie whethier sone riefci antn ilig I)Cef done before. When the Premier lie oIbtained. If a mani is practically hank- attends the next conference in the Eastern I Iit, lie does riot allow his children to starvec. States, he should try to get the (Joinnion1- [it explains his cnse lo his creditors. He wealth and the other States to agree to the tells tlacin that hie cannot pay, hilt t hat Mi-ra~ inauguration of a s~ystem of national insur- hie is in atposition to) pnyA lac will do0so. WVe itnee. Much timne and money have been spent die iii that position. We should tell our in Australia iii inveA igaitinBg the question. ued iiors that we are not preparBell to allow T]here is a1 i-eeaaid (i rniiaissioils hiaviaig sat our people to starve ii' order that overseas over five years ago and of' having- reeoii- interest maly he paid. WVe aife not :anaxious mended national insurance. Althoughb we to default, hid( we are naoxious tliat )iar pea- have been rather late in starting, it is better le should be fed and clothed. To en- late than never. If national insurance conuld able us to ensure that, it should not be established the Government wvould exper-- 1)e necessary for uts to pay interest ience some relief. I believe that everyone, for a1 time. Action along these lines vDn attaining the age of 55 or 60, should be re- should( ha'-e been takea bef~ore. Not tlng, tired and be enabled to live comfortably and ago. when an yone siigge ed fil 'y action oI so make room for the younger people. At the kind, he "'as set dlown as a repudiationist present a man has to keep his niose to the and ever yth i g that was had. Other people, grindstone in order to get the wherewithal how ever, afire coming ariond to tiat way,v£l a to live. If a national insurance scheme were thinking, atad I 110110soaiething wviil In- done adopted, the workers would] not hie auiited in that direction. I was aniiase-1 the utli'r by the fear of unemployment or the fear of ercailiag to hear the uenlihirl fon NothB PercthI hbeinig mniseralle and probabl)1y livinig in ai (11r. J. _1acCal] urn Smith) askiig, abhinm. a st1ate of. semni-starvation during their dclin- statement made by Professot-Fox. Last year big years. A few meii could lbe aIbsorlbed whenl Professor Shati i was a!llowed to ga0 onl the Peel Pstate. I know the estateh fairly.N to the Eastern States to witoer Inoalla him well. There aire men at Freinitle wiho for the Bank of -New Sonuth \Vales, the nlocai- would be prepared to take upl block., there her for North 1Perth niade it.) miention of' the provided they were ,anted at ai nil i fee. fact. asked questiomis about Pro I'esso, At present the land is reverting- to bash, anad Shann, the conditions under which be had if ncglccted naucli long-er, not only will thev gOne to the Bank of' -New South NVa les, the hush have grown u l) but posts al wires wvill satlaa v lie was to acacive and the tliie Ilt he gone and everything, will hie lost. If the was to spend wvith the bank. Quite a little blocks were made available at a1nomlinal fee stornaof in di guta tion arose that I shouldI havye people would take tlhem~ iip. file imp~udencc to put such questionis. 1 dlid The Minister for Lands: All onl our hands not get much iiiformation. have been takeni up. The Attorney General: You got the same answer as did the member for North Perth. Mr. SLEEMAN: F' believe the charge is Mr. SLEFAJAN: The nmmer for Noith about £12 per half year. Perth w'as not anxious to make inquiries oil The Minister for Lands: Less than that. that occasion, but he hais hop ped in niow tnit Mr. SLEEMAN: I do not think it is pos- the occasion suits hin'. I do nrt know sible to get them for less. I know there whether the member for Nelson is giving are a number of blocks which mien in Fie- secrets away, but he told the House that at mantle would willingly take in hand pro- a meeting he had attended he was informed vided the fee was nominal and that rations that tenders were not to be called for the were continued for a time. They would biM sale of the State Sawmills. I am glad to only too glad to get away froam the labour hear it, and to that I say, "Hear, hear! market and secure a home of their own. It The Minister for Lands: He did not say would be far better to place people on those that. blocks, even if the land were given away. ft Mr. SLEEMAN: I-To did. would pay the Government to write down, The Minister for Lands: He said tenders the values even more, rather than leave the weore not to lie called that day. holdings unoccupied. Considerable reference Mr. SLEEMNAN: We are led to believe has been made to the overseas debt. The that tenders are not to be called for the time is opportune for the Premiers' Confer- sile of the State ships, and to that again (7 SEPTrEMBER, 1932.)

1 say, 'Hear, hear!1" However, a Bill Lz in' establishing these works. WVhen the Gov- to be brought down for closing the State L-rnlment came into office they brought down I mplennent 'Works as an implement-making a hospital tax, 'It was proposed that a factory. The Government profess to wish maunied manl earning under £230 a year to help the farmers; they cry out about the and binglc men earning tunder £150 a year tariff, and yet they would close the imnple- should he exempt. That wa~i the first leg inent works, which should be made a pay- in. The following session these benefit ing, concern by manufacturing implements were cut out, and no one knows now who is fur the farmers. The Government intend entitled to free treatment. The Government to introduce a measure to authorise bulk aire evadling a responsibility that is legally handling, as they say, to help the farmer. If theirsi by pushing on to the local authori- they are sincere in the one thling, they ought ties thet payments for infectious disease to be siiee iii the other. I cannot under- caises. stand why they should he anxious to intro- The Minister for Lands: You know no- duce bulk handling, and itt the same timet thing about the Health Act -when you say should wish to close a factory which should th. t. be of assistance to the farmiers. The Gy Mr. SLEEMAN: The Minister had no crment cry out about the tariff but they right to shelter behind that Act in, order refuse to do anything regarding their own to ev'ade his rightful responsibilities. We tariff. I observe that the Attorney General are told that all indigent persons are treated is scratching his head. I refer to the sur- free, but that is not so. The Minister has charge onl the Fremantle harbour dues. This no intention of treating them free. Many is not the first occasion onl which I have infectious cases are sent from Fremantle to. mentioned that matter. As the party in the West Subinco hospital. The Fremantle- power profess so much solicitude for the council should not be asked to bear any of farmers, they might help a little by lifting the expense, but now have to pay half the the surcharge so that the people of the uncollected fees, because of some section country will not be penalised as they are in the Health Act that is many years old. penalised to-day by a surcharge that No charge should be made for indigent was imposed as a ivar-time measure, children. They should be provided for Some time ago I asked a question in under the hospital tax. the House when the member for Nedlands The 'Minister for Lands: We did not was a M1inister in charge of the Freniantle bring it into use. Harbour Trust. He said hie was not pre- Mr. SLEEMAN: Of course the Minis- pared to have the surcharge lifted. It shou-ld ter did, but hie amended it later. be taken off. It w~as only put on as a war- The Minister for Lands: I am refer- time measure and there is no necessity for ring to that section of the Health Act. it. It is certainly a means of collecting Mr. SIiEEMNAN: It is of no use to any- revenue, which the Government does not one now. want to relinquish. I hope the unfairness The Minister for Lands: We will change ol the charge -will be realised and that it it from, the property owner to the worker. will be removed in the interests of the Mir. SF4EEMAN: The Minister should country. A lot has been said about Ottawa, change it to the rightful people, those who but not much about State-owned concerns. are collecting the hospital tax from the It would seem that the State Sawmills are workers. not going to do much business as a result The Minister for Lands: We are charg- of that conference, neither are we going to ing the landholder under the Health .Act- do much with the Wyndham Meat Works. Mr. SLEEMAN: Not at all. How many It seems to be a fly in the ointment that we big landowners are there in the industrial should have these two State-o-wned concerns community? Workers in the towns are not to deal with. Some of the -works in the paying their rates to keep indigent child- Eastern States may get sonic benefit,' but ren at the infectious diseases hospital, but because we have two State-owned concerns for the establishment of roads and foot- of this nature it seems -we are to be ex- paths. emupted from any of the benefits. I shall The Minister for Lands: Under the anxiously await results of the Ottawa Con- Health Act? ferenee to see whether we are going to be Mr. SLEEIMAN: When the hospital tax: penalised, although we did the right thing was brought in it was never intended th&.. 476 [ASSEMBLY.]

the Government should shelter behind the Mr. SLEBMAN: I~f I were taking mloney Health Act, and evade their rightful re- from the Attorney General on the pretest sponsibilities. of doing something for him, and when .E The Attorney General: The Health Act got the money I said, ''Go to the devil, is an old one, and it contains provisions von can pay for yourself,'' would he say which put the onus on the local authority that was wicked or justifiable? for the treatment of indigent patients. The Attorney General: If you took the Mr. SLEEMAN: When the Hospital money on the pretext of having broken an Bill was broug-ht down the Health Act arm and- should have been amended to ensure that Mr. SLEEMAN: The tax was originally the local authority should not be saddled intended to apply to peopie earning more with that cost. than £230. The Governmient now. say that The Attorney General: That was the such people can afford to pay for them- law. selves. When the Hospital Bill went Mr'. SLEEM1AN: It should be altered. through it was never thought for a moment Thne Government are collecting money illeg- that the Government would take shelter ally from the people, and then are refusing behind the Health Act. to pay these expenses for the people. The Minister for Lands: The Act wvas The Minister for Lands: Mind you do in force long before that. not get into deep water. The Attorney General: The question of Mr. SLEEMAN: The tax was brought in infectious diseases, has constituted a to assist the sick, and certain exemptions running argument between local authori- were provided. The Government were not ties and the Government for many years. satisfied with the £100,000 they had bush- Mr~. SLEEMAN: The hospital tax was ranged from the Estimates, but decided to brought in to help indigent people. I hope withdraw the exemptions. They wanted lbefore the session is over the Health Act to be the sole judges of the position. If will be amended and the Government made the Government thought people had no to stand up to their responsibilities. money, and might not know where they The Attorney G eneral: Piling it on to thme were going to et their next feed, they Government! might have the decency to treat those Mr. SLEEMAN: Are not the Gtovern- People for nothing. IfCit was found there mient piling it on to the people? The memn- was a chance of gettingl anything- out of lber for South Fremnantle (lHon. A. %,ICal- them, the 0 olernnient lplitSilCd them to the Int) mentioned man 'y taxation cases, too last ditch. man v for me to rem embe,'. Yet the The Minister for Lands: You know that Premier recently stated that there would is not so. have to be extra taxation-i do not Air. SLEEMAN: The tax is collected know who will hear it. The G overn- to keep the hosp'itals going. ment should not fool the people any Mr. Kenneally: The term hospital tax longer, but should stand up to their obliga- is a misnomer. tions under the hospital tax legislation. We Mr. SLEEMAN: The Government are intend to see that those obligations are oh- not standing up to their obligations con- .scrved fully. I am sure the Minister in his erning the infectious diseases hospital. If heart believes that that is the proper course, an indigent boy breaks an arm, lie is and I hope that in the near future it will hW treated free at the public hospital, but if hie followed. 'Now I wish to ask what the Min,- contracts diphtheria he is sent to West ister for Education intends to do, regarding Subiaco and is charged for. the cleaners in his department, who were The Minister for Lands: He is treated lately the subject of a deputation. During free of charge at both places. You can put the most recent vacation their wages were that over Fremantle but not over this withheld from them. The same thing hap- House. peiied in connection with the Christmas va- Mr. SLEEMAN: The Government do cation. As the Federal Government attack not pay the cost; they tell the local au- old age pensioners, so the State Government thority that it is their job to pay. are attacking about the hardest-up inein- The Attorney General: Why is that so hers of the Public Service. Most of wickedI the cleaners are widows wvith families to [ASSEMBLY.]

$11 Iport. It is a shame that at Christmas such anl appointment, if possible. The sul). ther aualeanio,. houdfie withheld tromi .ject. is one on which I shall have somlething them. At Christmas there is, in fact, extra to say (luring the consideration of the Es-i- work to be done in the way of cleaning up miates. I have nothing- to say against th.2 in preparaition for re-opening. The fact Governors whom I have known; they were that these cleaners are not permanenitly em- ver'y nice gentlemen indeed. But ther' i~s ployed should not debar them f rota receiv- 11o reason for bringing- such gentlemeni here ing the ordinary panyment. 'No Government to fill the office of Governor 1when the Chief would dare to treat a body of school teachers Justice carries out the duties as well as -ay in the way these school cleaners are being Governor froml H-omc. As to the social treated. Thlese poor women are told, "Thec functions associated with Government House, Christmas vacation is here, and the Govern- there is no occasion for tlieni in these hara ment arc very sorry lint you cannot get anv times. I hope I have clone some good by wag-es for the next three weeks." I believe raising my lprotest against certain things that the Minister for Education will see that As for the Press and its comments, if I the practice is altered. I believe be will see think a matter important enough to ventilate that the cleaners receive their wagoes for- thle in this Chamber, the Press is not going to Christmas vacation and also for the vacatiou- tell me other-wise. I hope the Government which has just ended. Now as regards a will take note of the representations I have bridge for Fremantle. Bridges are being made. proposed all over the Swan River, but with every respect to other localities I hold that [The Speaker resiomed the Chair.] no place wants a new bridge more than F'%-- mantle does. The existing structure hasi THE MINISTER FOR LANDS (H-on. been an eyesore for a long time. I believe C.0. Lathain-Xcork-) [11.48] 1 have n Ministers realise that fact, and also realise wvish tit wear v the Hiue at this late hour. that the bridge is not the safest in the world. hut mnay I it the outset take the opportunity If it should go great inconvenience will be of this, mny first speech durinot the current caused to a multitude of people for the session, to tong'ratulate the new mnemlbers oil Causeway and ('allni ug lri dcn eouli their election to this Chamber. Probaly not carry the traffic. There is tie they have conic into thle House with pre- old proposal to build the bridge withi conceived ideas-I dlid when a new mnemhor- mnoney obtained front bonds. I still be- as to chnrgthe system of government and lieve there is somlethling ill that. ] in tile correcting all tile ev-ils that people outside first session of this Parliament tile ex-M1in- declare they suflfer fromn. Dirng the re- ister for Works mentioned the suggestion of inainder of thle ses-sion thle new miembers will building the bridge on the bond system. The have ain opponrtunity of deciding whether it erection of the bridge would certainly give is wise to aittempit stdiAltraios or whether a considerable amount of work. The build- it is- just as Ivell to carrY on1 Under the old sv-steiro. -Now I wish to ing of the bridge on the bond system should rely to some of the remarks, made by the mnember for Ircmnntle be highly acceptable to the Treasurer, and 0f,%SI~enian), particularly as regards pay- I hope that the present Government, befor-, lipit for treatment of infc'et-'ou- disease - going out of office-as I believe they will whecthe(r tile local governing bodies should do shortly-ill make a name for them- payv, or ti e Government should. The hon. selves by building the new Fremantle bridge. mniher a ~pareiitly forg-ets that nohodly. the member for Forrest On a recent evening neither a local governing body nor the Gov- (M1iss Holman) pleaded for a new school erimlnent, eai pay for services without taking- for girls. I know the very place that would thle maone 'y from the pockects of thle people. be most suitable for such anl establishment Does it really matter-I wonld like the hon. -Government House. There is no need for zuoQniber's opinion albont this-whether we Government House as such any longer, al- take the money from thle landholders of this though the Premier is credited with having State as a contribution assistiar those who stated, when last in thle East, that he still ,.annot pay for treatment when suffering favoured the bringing--out of Governors front infectious disease, or take it out of tile from the Old Country. I do not think a pockets. of all the people? Governor from the Old Country will be seen "Kr. Sleenian: You take it out of the in Western Australia again. I shall prevent pockets of all the people by the hosprtal tax. 478 48[7SEPTEMB13E, 1932.]

The -MINISTER FOR LAN1)S: Then I N!r. Sleenran : Faincy the Minister telling t list the horn. miembler is iI) favour of inereas- tme what is inj thre interests of the work~ers I iuig tlie tax so as to pay for- these services. The M11INISTER1 FOR LANDS: I pointed Mr. Sleernan: You should pay tire cost ot that out to the hon. member because, if the of the £100,000 already taken. Government have to hear the cost, then we The MINISTER FOR LANKDS: 'The hoir. murst increas e the hospital tax, and that will mnember shows that lie does not understand :1ilert the workers. But for the imposition where the money coires frorn. It isi a matter of the hospital tax, we could not have rein- of indifference to inc at the mioment -whethecr dered benefits to the Fremnantle people in we get it from the hospital tax or- take it ecmuikeetion with their hos5pital. Thie hospital out of thle pockets of tile people by Other fund enabled us to open a wvard that badl mneans. The fact is that to-clav we ha1lve riot been closed because foods were not avail- grot the money to enable us to do it. If' that iible to mnaintain it. Dulring the few years is the only reason, then surely it justifies 1. have been in puhlic life, there has niever matters being- left as they tire. It rosy interest been a 'Minister for Health who has not harn, member's to know that the mavin purpose dlone his very best in the interests of our of the applicable section of the Health Act hospitals, hut every Minister has had to go was to mnake local authorities dIOtheir best to tile Treasurer for funds, It has always to preventt the spread of infectious diseases. ber-i difficult to get money to provide for Mr. Sleenian : Do you think the local the sick poor- of tire State, and during the bodies would ceourage the spread ot the term oifolee of my predecessor, he found it diseases q? impossible to get all the money he desired. The MI1NISTER FORt LANDS: No, hot Inkconsequence of wvhich wards had t.o be they could contribute to the spread by in- rlcsed. The hospital tax has beep, the meanis difference. of enabling us to open hospital wards and Mr. Sleernan : They would not do that. c-rrv out necessary renovations. The mein- ber The IftNIST ER. FOR LANXDS: ] can for- Fremantle knows that within the nivxt few weeks we shall ijuote, one local authority that :sked us to commience the b)uild- ing of an out-patients' department, abolish the cart s 'ystem and allow people to which is necessary at Fremantle. interests bury the uightsoil in their backyards. There In the are sonic local authorities that must he kept of the people who receive benefits at our hospitals, the tax is worth while. There up to the mark, hence the inclusion of the is- wore ralk in this House about the hospital section in the Health Act. I wvant to inform tax than is ever heard outside. The people the moenber for Fremantle (Mr. Sleman) who derive the benefit desire the tax and that the local. authorities do not pay the they have no complaints to make about whole of the money involved. it. Mr. Corboy: Our grievance is that you Mr. Sleeman:- I did not say they did. slpead The MINISTER FOR LANDS : The lion. it in Perth and Fremnantle and the people in mnember led the House to believe that they the country get nothing, did. Mr. Patrickj: It is a godsend to the people Alr. Sleenuin: By way of explanation, Mr. in the country. Speaker, I will not allow the M1inister The MINISTER FOR LANDS: The to put words into my mouth that I did member for Tilgarn-Coolgardie (Air. Cor- nrot utter. I said that the local authorities boy) is unfortunate in that he has one hos- paid half the amount owing on account of pital in his district that is leased, and there the treatment of infectious diseases. has been no claim from them. We pay for The MINISTER FOR LANDS: So long all the indigent patients at hospitals, with as tire lion. menmber says that now, I am that one exception. Even so, I believe that content. The local authoritiVS dIO ]lot pAty many11of I he Patients from that part of the more than one half of the amount owing. Sqtate go to the Northarn hospital, or some If the local authorities do not pay their other hospital. to receive treatment. I do proportion, then the( Perth Hospital is not think there is one hospital in respect responsible for the payment. It is not a or which those in control will not admit tharge against the Government, because the that they benefit appreciably as a result Infectious Diseases Hospital is a branch of of the hospital fund. There are one or two the Perth Hospital, which is -responsible. ether points raised hy the member for Bun- In the interests of the workers, we may a-3k bury (Mr. Withers) and the member for 'he landholders to pay a little extri. Al'bany (Mr. Wansbrough) that I wish to (7 SEPTEMBER, 1932. 474-0 clear up. I know those hon. members had only for the pactient.,, and, in sonic instanes, no intention deliberately to mislead the for the staff. House with regard to the £15 paid to the 11r. Withers: But the staffs are at rvsp''c- tiosatt01 ALthe Government hospitals they sibilitv of thle Government. referred to for Christmas cheer. The money Tile MINSISTER Full LANDS: And was used for the purpose indicated. ,,oncetiines we give themn Christmas ceer out M1r. Wansbroughi: Do you say that money of comforts fund. was not called up? MN.r.Withers : Not out of the charity funds $ T'he MINISTER FOR LANDS: I say de- The MI-NISTERt FOR LANDS: 6r' ronro i flinitely it was not paid into revenue. In it was Paid out of' the c-harity funds. It is order to comply with the requirements of simply a matter of opinion. At one hospital thle Auditor General, that money has to be where thicre were only two patients there was paid into it trust fund and drawn from it. the £15 to spend. Does the honi. wencher sug- Thle payment of £15 was available to each gest that it should have beeni spent entirel 'Y matron provided she gave proof that the on 1wo patients? The trouble is that inem- mney was used for the purpose indicated. ber, get holtd of infourmation whiech theY Mr. Wansheough: Why were the cheques could alwa 'ys cave cleared tip at time depart- called up? MUct Without referring it to the I louse. The The M3INISTER3 FOR LANDS: Because inecuher for V'ictoria Park (Mr. Raphael) they were paid into the trust fuind. It said that the £900 subsid *y paid to the dental would he very difficult for any Minister to hospital had been suIbjec-tecl to a 224 per ecent. anwer some questions immediately respecting any amount of £15 allotted to a specific bos- cut under the emierg-ency legislation. 'I deC- iic1teh' say that1 WAS omit of tile institultions 1tl.I am sure that if the bon. members were to ask the matrons at the Albany and imcrespect of which no cut was mnade. Thetc Bunbury hospitals, whether the money was was- so many of the unemployed requiring spent on Christmas cheer, they would say dental treatment that I could not justify thle that it had been spent in that direction. imposition of the cut. And( not only did we Mr. Wansbrongh: But after the meoney aillow themn to draw the fill[ amount of! their had been spent, they received instructions to susdy ut we gave them £12. per month pay it into revenue. extra to meet somle of their special require- The MiTNISTE'R FOR LANDS: The nilecuts. matrons are not expected to lie experts in Mr. COrbov : They would awed inure thain fitai mie. that. Mr. Waqnsbrough: But after they hadl The -MINISTER FOR LANDS: There is s5pent the Christmas checer cheqne that they no institution that does not nierd more tlnan hcad received, they were askedl to Psay it into it is geCtting to-day. Stil the hou. mnember revenue. had no right to come to the House and give The MIN'ITER FOR LANDS:. ff the incorrect information. He was certainly not imatron had indicated that the money had4 speaking on behalf of the institution, else Pusi Icren spent, the matter' would have been information would have been correct. Geni- cleared' up. erally speaikinig the debate has been very fair, M1r. Wansbroigh: But why should she he to niembers of the Government. 'Muchl has .ked~ to return it? been attempted to he made out against the THE MINISTER FOR LANDS: Be- Glovernmoint, but there is a definite reply to eftisi' the money had to be paid into a everything put up by members of the Op- trust fund, and the Auditor-General insists, position. To-dayI , not only outside the Chain- onl the requirements of the Act being- carriedl her hut inside it also, sonic people make a out. -What does it matter? Sonie Iinspitalz paradise for criticism. Not only do they have committees that provide comfort.;, and not appreciate the difficulties with whicht other have not. Goverunments are confronted, but thley, Ore Mr. Withers : WhY should not the maitron verv harsh iii their criticism. Those who re- as Bunhuri' have had a share of that ftund? gard this as a paradise are treading on vet-v The MVINISTER FOR LAND)S: Theyv tender ground. It is nio pleasure to any Gov- -niv not hare had at comforts fund. F am erment to find their people on short pay. afraid the hon. members mnade out n weak But what arc we going to do? If we were ease. but I am suare thje - had no intention of to carry out the suggestion that wve should misleading the Houize. Time £1 was4 used pay away all our money in full wagres to the [ASSEMNBLY.] men for a short period, we should have to let cause it is possible for somebody else to them starve for the remainder of the rime. come along and release credits. If we could get the whole of our loan funds lon. A. McCallunm: But it is pegged ait one time, it -would not be so had, for now,- we could then see at the end of six The M1INISTER FOR LANDS: That is months what the postiion would he. But so, but even now there are sonic people sell- unfortunately we get our money spread over ]ng exchange for less than 25 per cent. We the whiole of the year, and so if we were must have somec optimism. In this State So: to provide foil-time employment on full much depends upon primary production, wages, a large number of people would be and if we do not have optimism with which left to starve. Certainly unless members can to encourage our primary producers there show us how to get money in a way at pre- is nothing but collapse ahead of us- There sent unkouwn to us, the experime nt would can be no permanent solution of our unem- end in starvation for somec people. The ployment troubles except the putting of the member for Mt. Magnet (Ron. MN.F. Troy) maca on to primary production. They can criticised the Premier for his optimistic be put on to road work, and at the cad of spirit. I am glad to know there are still the period they are back on oar hands not some optimists amongst us when there are a penny better off. The permanent solution so many Dismal .Johnnies. Despite wvhmt is to put them on the land and let them the Leader of the Opposition said, I believe produce commodities for export. there was a slight optimistic strain running Mr. Withers: But you are putting off a through his speech. He certainly said wev bigger percentage than you are pattig on. had not turned the corner, but judging by The MINISTER FOR LANDS: That the tonec of his remarks he does not think statement is not right. It is true that to-day the corner is far away, because finance is -so difficult many men Mr. Corboy: We shall reach it at the next who in the past have been able to make a election, when there will be a change-over. living on the land are unable to do it now, The IMINISTER FOR LANDS: If there and neither the Coveramenut nor the is to be a change-over, I hope the difficulties financial institutions are able to extend toi we have been experiencing will not be them the big advances that they received in lpassed on to our successors. There is cer- the past. Members, when they ask for big tainly justification for a little optimism to- Government expenditure, are apt to forget day, for there is a distinctly better tone in the reason why we cannot give it. I wish to both the wheat market and the wool market. make a comparison so that members may ap- The member for South Fremantle (Hon. A. preciate the position of thme present Govern- McCallum) remarked upon how little of the mnent with that of the last Government. tremendous wealth of Australia is exported. Duriiig the last year of the Labour Govern- In Western Australia we are different from mient, 1929-30, the national income was the Eastern States, where they have big £42,50.5,000, whereas last year it -was manufacturing centres. In this State our £32,635,000. So practically there was a money comes very' largely from wool and drop of £E10,000,000. That is £10,000,000 wheat. We use 7 per cent. of the wheat we we hat-c not in circulation, but it was grow, and we export the rest. I doubt in circulation in 1030, It works out at £25 whether we use so much as 1/2 per cent. of per head of men, -women and children in the our wool. So it will be seen that we depend State. During the last full year of revenue entirely on thec overseas pneces. It is true of the Labour Government, they received the exchange has benefited our primiary £9,750,000. Last year our revenue was producers, prohably more than it has bene- £89,035,000, or a decline of £1,715,000, or a fited the primary producers of the Eastern total of £611,715,000 less than our predeces- States; but whether it is possihie definitely sors had. Then during the lest year of the to fix the period over which the present ex- Labour Government they spent from loan change is going to last is outside my know- f unds £2,312,000 more than we had to spend. ledge at the moment, and can be dealt with Those three items total £C14,027,000. The only by the Associated Banks and the Comn- Commionwealth Government spent loan moonwealth and State Governments getting funds to the extent of £7,000,000 a year in together and making a decision. Even then Australia for a number of years. Last year it would be difficult to peg the exchange, he- they did not spend £2,000,000 in the whole (7 Szrn~mBEa, 1932.1 491S of Australia. That difference, added to The MINISTER FO1B LANDS: In nor- the Z14,000,000, mnakes a tremendous sum mal conditions we were justified in making less in circulation and the result is that in- them. When the promises were made,. dustry has had to dispense with the ser- wheat was 4s. 8d. a bushel and wool 10!kd. vices of employees and the responsibility a lb. Certainly overseas borrowing had for their maintenance has been thrown on stopped, but the statement was justified onl the Glovernmnent. The total of those figures the amount of money that we considered represents M3'per head of the population was available. of the State, which is a big sumn of money. Hon. J. Cunningham: You were warned.. If we had it in circulation now, we would be Mr. Withers: We refuted the statement a very happy community and there would from every platform. be little for us to worryv about, To show The MINISTER FOR LANDS: WVhen the fall of commodity prices, in the last the Oovernment took olie, we found the year of the Labour Government wheat Treasury empty. No one will dispute that. averaged 4s. 8d. a. bushel and] wool 101 d. However, we faced the position as any other a lb. Last year wheat brought 2s. 6d. and Government would have done. We had to wool 8d. Members can see what thpt fall- steer the ship of State through anl un- ifng Off meant. Any man would have known sea of depression, the like of wvhich needed a great deal of foresight to foretell had never before been experienced. The such a collapse in prices. deficit is excusable on the ground that we Mr. Slecznan: Did the 2s. 6Id. a bushel had to find £620,000 for exchange and include the bonus? £643,000 for unemployment relief. Find we The MNIKSTER FOR LANDS: The had the revenue that the Labour Govern- we would have bonus applied to last season's wheat, the mnent received in 1929-30, been able to meet that expenditure and sales of which have not been completed, show but the price will he 2s. 10d. to 3s. a bushel. a surplus. Those figures should be kept in mind. No Hon. S. W. Mfuncie: Provided you had one could foresee the utter collapse in the made the eats in wages. price of export commodities. Had we had The MINISTER FOR LANDS: Yes. I the amount of revenue that the TLabour told the House that we could not increase. Government received in their last year of commodity prices and consequently we had office, we would have bad no deficit at all, to reduce expenditure. That was the only but could have carried the liability of course open to us. It is true that the ex- £600,000 for exchange and £600,000 for change rate has benefited the primary pro- unemployment relief. We could have miet ducers. With the Deputy Leader of the both those outlays and still shown a sur- Opposition, I do not know what would have plus. happened without the help of the exchange last year. It assisted the farmners to bridge, Hon. J. Cunningham: We made it pos- sible for you to do that. slightly the difference between the cost of production and the returns received. It Mr. Withers: Von might have been more has not bridged the whole distance but it extravagant. has materially assisted. Without it I The MINISTER FOR LANDS: I will do not know what relief the farmers could tell the hon. member something of extrava- have looked for. The Government cannot gance presently. We could not increase expect any -relief until there is an incease commodity prices, but we did the next best in commnodity prices. which will justify the thing and that was to reduce expenditure. removal of the exchange rate. There are We started with what we considered was only three ways I know of in which we cam extravagant expenditure. The member for assist. We c!an hammer away to get a reduc- Mt. Magnet (Hon. M. F. Troy) said the tion of interest rates. M1oney must he made Scullin Government camne into office at a cheaper. time when it had to take the consequences. Hon. J. Cunningham: How are you going That very argument could be put up in de- to do that? fence of the State Government. We came The MI11NISTER FOR LANDS: A good in just at a time to take the consequences. deal has been done in the last year. We are Hon. J. Cunningham: You made so many go inw to discourage the paymlent of high extravagant promises. rates of interest and make it unprofitable for 482 [ASSEMBLY.] ition ,ieved,n to keel) their funRds locked up Wvould provide cite of tle solutionis of our- in bank,. We are going to encourage difficulties. Last year the prohibitive tariff, checaper money. The main tinRg is to get restricted our markets. Germany, France, clown the rate of interest so that it will be Italy and Egypt were almost closed against unprofitable to loek nmoney u p. It wvill be uts as a primary producing country. The more more profitable to circutlate it ini inidustry. markets we have the more competition will Ini this State there is no question about work there be for our goads. But far China anti to be done. There is plenty of work. The Japan last year, and the year before, I (1o quLestionl is to get the wherewithal to pay' for itot kngow what we woudiihave (lone withI our the work. We are doing our best to deal wheat. It is a question nf the law of sup- with the interest quest ion. The Government Ill' andl demanid, because thle Carry-over is of' this State led the wvar in that matter. We so grea t.. it is renmarkable that the Mae DoI- ,educed the Agricultu~ral ]Ban~k interest to 6 ald Labour Government should have allowed per cent, ont the 1st January of last year, R3ussian wheat to enter Great Britain when sit flow%it is dlown to 51/2 per venit. Russia had repudiated her debts, knowing I-Ion. .1. Cunningham: How are you going that the wvleat was grown underi slave condi- to thawv a way out of the frozen interest tions anid p)aid for in Riussinucurrene y . Not bill,? only d]id thlit Governtment allowv that, lbut The MlINIS'Ikli FOR LANDS: It must Ibought the wvheat with good British cur- lie remembered that the banks aire still hold- But.]ritaina then expected the Doininjons inig a good deal of moRney on fixed deposit at to pay their interest account, although they 5 '4 per cent., anRd until those con tracts have knew wye would have to pay with the goods expired, they wil[ pay that rate of interest. we sent, the prices of which were at a low As soon ais that rate of interest comes (Iow,, figure. I hope we may get some relief the rate to borrowers will be lowered. The tram that position. We have to get the rate .security of tile banks depends eniti Rely 01vo of interest reduced, and see that tariffs are tile success of the priinafl' producer. The brought dIowa, so that we canl trade wvith City of Perth securities w ill decline with countries that wi4ll trade with us. Until this t hose of the primary producers. it the is brought about it is vitally necessary to interests oif the bank securities it is necessarv% conti nue the exchange rate. Tha t will asiist for them to make money available ats cheaply its to bridge the gap between the cost or pro- as possible. That is onec way in wvhich relief d irtioti anad the p rie of our goods. wvill be provided. A second form of relief Hon. J4. Crunningha: You have an al- wiill be amialteration in the tariffs, which must come. I remind the member for East thority over that. Perth (Mr. Rentieall v) that there must he The 'MINISTER FOR LANDS : Accord- a reduction. We have to makeadvailable for ing to members opposite we have all the the primnary producer every possible markt authority. Undoubtedly it is an Australia- liTon. J. Cunningham i: You as the Goven wide question. Ours has been an unpleasant inent have no) rCsjionsi bility for the tariffs. task. We have had to introduce salvage leg- The Minister for Lands: We have no islation, as the Leader of the Opposition responlsibilitv for finance because it was put it. That wvas a Rmost fitting expressioln. given to the Loan Council long ago. We were trying to prevent the State fromt Hon. J. Cunningham: Why not be fair? going to piees. We had to dto things that The MINISTER FOR LANDS: We have proved unpopular, such as muake cuts in a responsibility- Rmenmbers' salaries, in civil servants' salaries I-Ion. J. Cunningham: )-ou have not. .and reductions in wages. I would point out The MINISTER FOR LANDS: Indivi- that the coalition Government have done their dually and collectively' we have the responsi- job, and] that there has been no split in the bility of telling thme people that in a State ranks. T caninot mention any Labour Gay- like ours we cannot afford to have tariff erment in A ustralia in which there has not harriers built uip that prevent us from Ibeen a split in the ranks. Rmarketing our products abroad. Hon. J. Cunningham: Are you foreshad- Hon. I. CunlninghamLI: As it State Govern- owing a further reduction in members' sal- ment yot, have no responsibhili ty. aries91 The MINISTER FOR LANDS: All we Thle MINISTER FOR LANDS: I have can do is to tialk about it when thie Pieniis not heard of it. The only place where there meet and] that has beeni donme. I believe tht was no split in the Government was in New [7 SEPTEMBER, 1932.] 4S3

Sonut Wi\ales :i d wvhat a di es dfl necss they whfere the sidings wvill be and what the road ni(e of things ! Complaint, have becen inde system will be. The hon. member accused about the henavy taxation. The tuher for the Premier of bringing new people into the Mft. 'Magnet (lon. M. F. Troy) referred too State whenever a silver lining appeared. gunl licenses. We do impose a tax of 5s. tom Those we have helped most have been Aus- cover the cost of printing, and tire regi ran- tralian-born. Mlany have come from the tion of firearm-,, but any subsequent tax is goldfields and have settled in the South- Is. a year. One registration covers the whole West. family. Most of tile taxes have been ini- Hon. J. Cunningham: They are good posed onl people who cannot pass themn onl. people. I refer particularly to the entertaiinents tax The MINISTER FOR LANDS: Yes. at and the tax oil lbooknmnakers. -plendid type. I [onl. S. W. Munsie: They pass it .. The Premier: Somte of them are even in Tie- MINISTER FOR LANDS: Yes. Wet P'arliamnent. have given relict to anmindustry that we Tfle MINISTER FORl LANDS: The knew could not Possi bl' itteet its presenmt ox- membier for M.Vt.Magnet said there wvas nothing being done in the penditure. I refer to prlimary lprodct oll. Lands Depart- We abolishted the land tax, and assisted ment. Hie boasted of the tremendous activ- ity Of that department when he was in pr itary pro (dlcers by' relievinig th em' 0of lcal office. I am Uovernmen t taxes. We assisted the pen ple sorry he is not present to-night. For the three years that he tip North with a slight reduction in their was in charge hie cost thle State a lot rentals. TIhis inzdicated that thle Gcovernment of money, and broke the hearts of numbers of people he appreciated their dilliculties and were offer- put on the land. I refer particularly to the 8,500 ing the people some induemtent to carry onl. farms scheme, which should never have been The hospital tax has beeni in the interests started. of the workers. I know the di Ilicultics Cx- lion. J. Cunningham: That camne about eienced in good tunes by MNinis- uinder the migration scheme. ters for Health. When my sue- The MINISTER FOR LANDS: People cessor takes over fromn tie lie will were Put out there before the Government Ile pleased to know that lie ca n were ready for them, and we have had to lay his hands upon a certain sum of money, take theni off.' The first thing I did was amitd make up the deficiency onl hospital to issue instrucetions that no one else war, accounts. The member for Mt. 3Magtiet to. go there an til wve knew what ift,. rail waq- cottinlined that nothing had been done in -Y'ste,,il "as to le. tile Lands Department. W'e have donme as Hon. J. Cunningham: much as it was possible to do with the mnoney The £82,000,000- tad evaporated long before you came into available. We have put at number of small office. farmers onl homestead blocks, built shiacks for themn, aitr given them £2 -it week as sits- The MINTSTER FOR LANDS: In some tenrance. That is a charge upon the land. of the honl. member's water supply schemes. Ioit. J. Counninghamr: Why not build Don. J. Cunningham: You had it spent workers' home in lKulgoorlioq in your district. The The MINISTER FOR LANDS: Kallgoor- MINISTER FOR LANDS: The lie is well looked after-. I agree with the Preliminary investigations for the 3,500 memarks of the member for Geraldton (Hon. farms scheme cost £105,000, and prior to) .1. C. Willeock) with regard to the fine belt taking possession of their blocks thle settlers of counttry suitable for settlement in his were promised a railway. They went out, hl eletraite. No doubt the umoney that has and nlow their position isprlus .already been spent at the port of Oeraldton not say that there is not a considerable area wvill be tnde the fullest use of when funds of first-class land in that district, but the are available for the development of the fact remains that some of the settlers were hinterland. If the Government thought wye placed 70 miles from a railway. It was no could find sufficient settlers with capital to use Putting People out 60 or 70 miles from tcke up this huge territory, the surveyed a railwayv, especially at that time, if one holdings would be thrown open to-morrow. knew what was ahead of this State. We should decide our railway policy before Hon. J. Cunningham: You are condemn- we open new land, so that we inay know ing the land now. 484 [ASSEMBLY.]

'The MNINISTER FOR LANDS: No. So that during the last two years wve have Money was not available to give the neces- obtained more bushels to tile acre. This sary transport facilities. State must turn its attention to that aspect. Hon. J. Cunningham: That is all right. Ila my opinion, we have got our settlement tar enough advanced to turn our attention The MINISTER FOR LANDS: The towards getting a higher production per' State will nlot get out with a loss of iess acre. than £600,000 or £700,000. Holl. S. W. Mansie: What about the six lion. P. Collier: Who started that policy? millions iii thle group settlements? The MINISTER FOR LANDS: We did The MINISTER FOR LANDS: I have not get much result from the bar. member's some interesting figures about group settle- policy. mnents. I will inform the House who was Holl. P. Collier: But we made fallowing responsible for the loss. I would not have comp~ulsory, and what you have quoted is referred to the q~uestioni had not the member the result of that fallowing. for Mt. Magnet (Elon. M. F. Troy) raised The 'MINISTER FOR LANDS: I would it, and had he refrained from certain inter- not say that altogether. jections last night. The loss incurred by the Agricultural Bank will amount to between Hon. P. Collier: It is so. £600,000 and £E700,000, and £320,000 will be The MINISTER FOR LANDS: This required to remove thle settlers closer to last year we have done very little fallow- railwayv communication. Thus we are in in-g. The trouble is. that we cannot get the deep water irrespectivc of wvhat we do. money for fallowing. Every one of those settlers sent there was onl first-class land. Hon. P. Collier: During the last year or two you have obtained the results of our Holl. P. Collier: Those settlers were not fullowving policy. .- cnt there. The MINISTER FOR LANDS: This The 'MINISTER FOR LANDS: They were promised ain advance of £1.500 per last year we have been able to exercise a fari-m. certain measure of control. The question has been one ot' fertiliser. Instvad of Holl. P. Collier: They went there of their spread- -o'vn volition. ing thle fertiliser over large areas, the farm- ers have had to confine it to small areas; The MINISTER FOR LANDS: I am and the result is a speaking inl general terms. We still have better return per acre. land available there, but we do not allow The member for Mt. Mngnet is always tell. aonyone to go there. ing- the House what happens onl the group settlements. Because of his interjections Hon. P. Collier: Still, those settlers who are there went there of their own volition. last night I wvill now give certain figures. To the 31st March, 1924, this State had ad- FOR LANDS: They The MINISTER vanced £940,789 for group settlement in a went there, and this State agreed to advance period of a little over twvo years. During £1,500 for each of those settlers. While we thle first 15 months of the Labour Govern- have not put many additional men on the nient £C1,280,219 was spent, and in the next land, particularly iii the wheat areas,. the 12 months £1,195,770. In the next year proposition being too unattractive, we have time expenditure was £1,260,883 and in the set ourselves to produce more bushels to the following year 911,339. The member for Mt. acre, as these statistics prove:- -Magnet, wvho had so much control andc Year. Acreage. Bushels. wvho claiins to have done so muich 192.9-30 .3,.568,225 29,081,133 more work than 1 have been doing,' 1930-31 3,955,763 53,504,149 took control in 19)27, and finished upl 1931-32 3,158,888 41,360,698 in 1930. During those four years he spent 'The following figures show how the State £1,260,000, £911,000, £630,000, and £668,000, :Overate has been increased:- this last being the amount on the Estimates. For the period of two years just closed, Year. Bushels. amounts of £209,000 arid £67,000 have been 19N9-30 1030-31 '13.52 spent, respectively. During the whole term 19.31-39 13.09 no less than £C4,600,000 was written off group [7 SEPTErR.M , 1932.] 4858 settlement. It is no0 15e lblaming the Kitchell The Miinister for Agiiultr i: And we ex- Government for the expenditure, because ported a large quaiititv. the expenditure took place during the time The 11INISTER FOR LANDS: Yes, wv. the member for Aft. Magnet was )finiste4 exported 25,000 boxes, which I did not allowv or his predecessor was Minister. for. We have but recently commenced to Hon. P. Collier: Of course, we had to manufacture cheese in this State, and during the period uinder review imports increased sJpend that money onl stock. by £3,343. For some reason, the iniporta- The MIINISTER FOR LANDS: Thle lion of eggs in the shell inc-reased by £1,140, amount of £1,280,219 would have stocked but I think that must have been onl account the whole of the South-West. of eggs imported from Sonuth Australia to HOn. P. Collier: Those figures prove no- the goldfivhhk. When we come to eggs in thiing. liquid, we find that the imiportations were reduced to the extent of £C2,863. Fish in tins The MINISTER FOR LANDS: They increased by £964, hut onl the other hand the The showv the money that was spent there. importation of mneat, poultry, baron and member for 'Mt. Magnet also referred to the hams decreased by £410,122. Concentrated mnanner in which this State was going back and potted meats, and meats preserved in in importing foodstuffs. May I tell hint tins showed a reduction in imports to the that that is not the case at all. The imports value of £C31,014. Dried iljk or milk in for 1929-30 were £13,781,000, those for powdered form show-ed a decreased importa- 1930-31 wvere £10,881,000, and those for tion of £3,991, and the importation of con- 1931-32 were £10,879,000. So that there densed mnilk was reduced] by £26,379. Thus has been no increase in imports. The ex- the net reduction of foodstuffs imported re- ports were-For 1929-30, £E17,709,529; for presented a value of £143,553 and not an in- 1930-31, £:17,026,654; for 1931-32, £16,287, crease of £700,000, as indicated by the menu- 191. So that wie keel) up our exports fairly her for Mt. Magnet. He took into considera- well, while the drop in inmports has amounted tion man - lilies that aire not produced in the to £7,901,000. And most of the stuff we iiL- group1 settlement areas. One large item in ported, as hon. members arc aware, was the list of imp~ortations is tinned fish. Surely produced in the Eastern States. The m1cm- the lion, member would not suggest that we ber for Aft. 'Magnet went onl about the imi- should apply to the South-West, the slogan portation of foodstuffs, and took the figures "Grow more fish!"' That would be absolute for the 12 months ended 30th June, 1931. stupidity. The imports for the period in question Hon. A. McCallunm: They tell me they are amounted to £6,810,000. The_ imports for good nt using dynamite for fishing purposes the 12 months ended on the 30th June, 1932. down there. amounted to £7,532,000, or about £700,000 Tme -MINISTER FOR LANDS: I do not in excess of those for the preceding year. piopose to detain the House munch longer,' On going- through the figures, however, I but I would like to lpoint out to the member fRnd that those imports included ag-ricul- for 'Mt. Hawthorn (Mr. Millington) the tural machinery, drugs, fertilisers, points, position regarding the Fnirbridge Farm surgical instruments, jewellery, paper, sta- School. le complained about the number of tionery, rubber, and so forth. None children migrating fromt England to that of those lines is produced onl the group scbool. As a matter of fact, the numiber has settlements. The importation of paper and been reduced by 18. The dificultyv is that stationery increased by £64,000 during the those in authority enter into contracts in year andf the member for Mft. Magnet (Hon. Eng-land to take a certain nutmber of ehil- ,%I.F. Troy) could not have givenl considera- dren. I understanad the latest con traet is to tion to that phase when he gave the total as take 140 children. E700,000. I do not think the lhon, member Hon. P. Collier: Who entered into the could have dissected his figures, or he would contract ? not have misled the House. I propose to The MIN ISTER FORl LANDS: The Child give particulars regarding thle imports of Emigration Society at Home, who run the goods that are produced on the group settle- institution. We have pointed out to them ments. For instance, the importation of that they cannot enter into any further butter decreased in 1931-32 as compared ag-reemen ts without consulting the State with 1930-31 by £64,856. Government because of thme di~fficulties that 486 86[[ASSSMBLY.]

exist here. At the sameo time I would like ziie for thiem to mieet the interesit onl their hion. members to understand that we do not Caipitail expenditure. PAY for any children over 14 years of age. Herr1. 11. Collier: We do0 not cut down the'ir lion. P. Collier: Of course not. The MINISTER FOR LANDS :The The -MINISTER FOR LANDS: We do, average age of the children cotiing out n1ow in cltea. We have told them they moust not is 10 years, so that they wilt not be released bigany more children here -without eon- from the }'airbridgc Farmn School until they miltillog thle Governmenlt. aire 14 years of age. It would he dillicult ion. 1'. Collier: They canl bring as many to sax, what the position oF Western Aus- athe-y like so long as they maintain themn. tralia will be four years hence. It cost the TFhe M[.NISTER FOR LANDS: We area State Government £2,845 in 1930, and in -illowiig [hen 3s. 6d. ai week for each child 3931 it cost us £2,305. At the outset we until it reaches the age of 14 years. were paying 4s..3d. per head in respect of H-on. P, Collier: Lots of Our children woud the children at the school, but that is nlow he glad to have 3s. Od. a week now. reduced to 3s. Gd. per head. Thle balance or The MINISTER FOR LANDS: I sup- the money is mrade up by contributions by pose so, but at the same time it is rather- the Conmmoniwealth Government, wrho in 1.93i0 difficult Wilen] we allow Such ca1pital expent- miade available £2,824, and for the year ended diture to be involved in the creation of an the 30th June, 1931, £2,320. On the Other institution in] Our State- hland the British people provided much more lion. P. Collier: It was not a question than that. ]ia 1930 the Child Emnigr-ation oft allowing it. They undertook thle work. Society aind the Overseas Settlemient Comn- Thre MINISTER FOR LANDS: Yes, buit inittee contributed £7,397, and for the finan- We gave them encouragement, and wve paid cial year ended the 30th Janie, 1931, £6,035. So that the people at Home are bearing the themn a little more somec time ago. than we largest proportion of the expenditure. FIn aire njow coritrilmuting. .addition the English people subscribed £6,600 Mr. Marshall: Did I understand you to for the erection of a church at the(. school. It say that tire GJovernment hand nlotified the is not desirable at the mioment that we should farm school anthrorities that wye did riot want biring any mloire children into Western Auis- anly inure children brought out frorn Eng- tralin lccetansc of thle difficulty of placing our lanld?1 own young p~eople, At thle same1 timeI we The MiNISTE!R FOR LANDIS: No, hut must reinenmber that ai large am11ount Of etil- that before they comrplete any further, agree- ital expenditure is involved, and those in ineats at Hfome, they must consult [110 Gov'- authority have to pay £6,000 a year in in- errnment. terest. If wve do niot allow them to keep lHon. IP. Collier: How long has the latest uip their numbers they will not. hove the Igrecmient to run? benefit of the Overseas Settlement Comumit- Thle MINISTER FOR LANDS: It all de- tee's subsidy. After all, we contribute a lperds onl how long- it takes to bring the smnall. amount towards the maintenance of' an children out. I think the agreement covers institution that all members are ag-reed is 140 children, and about 70 have been) a very worthy one. brought out so far. I think it spreads over- Hon. P. Collier: It is not a muatter of a period of two years. There is accommoda- keeping up their numbers, but of our contri- tion at thle school for 800, hut only 200 are bution. being paid for now, The member for- Guild- The MINISTER FOR LANDS: Our con- ford-Mlidland (Hion. NV. D. Johnson) re- tribution for the financial year ended the ferred to the report of the Farmers' Dis- 31st June, 1.93.1, was £2,305, and we had in abilities Royal Conmmission, I will give the circulation in this State, apart from our hon. member an opportunity to informn the contribution, not less than £9,800. In addi- House just what be knows, and the effect tion to that, there was private money sent thle Government have given to the commis- out from the Old Country that circulated as sion 's findings. I do not think any other well1. When we allow such an institution to Royal Commission's report has been so fully be huilt up in our State, we must consider dealt with as the one referred to hy the hon. the position very fully before we commence meomber. The Government did riot desire to reducing tble numbers and making it imupos- burke discussion when the report was he- [7 SEPTETMBER, 1932.1 4873

fore the House, but effect has been given work for them once we have bulk hand- to many of their findinigs before the repii ling. As for the bag-sewers to be thrown was received. it ii thle desire of the Governt- out of work, we have some 10,000 farmers, inent to do everything possible to assist the and no doubt it would not be unfair to es- tannling commlunity, who have ren dered won- tinutte one hing sewer for each farmer. So derf'ul serviie to the State, and alMo to as;sist there will be 10,000 of those men thrown those People -who, for thle first time inl their out of work. The Premier, when this was lies find thlsl.CVesi out ofi etnifploytueit. -state([ to lhim, said it would prove thle ease for hulk handling. But that is a very Que~tion put and passed;, the Addiess,-jin- superficial view to take. MLoney paid out reply adopted. in wages to-day may have to he paid out in other ways. Aks to the unemployment to follow bulk handling, it is inevitable. BILL-BULK HANDLING Or WHEAT. toi Canada in inquiry wVns held, and the Leave: lo introduc-e. comnmittee of investigation said that the labour employed in bulk handling was 12 THE MINISTER FOR WORKS (Hon. per cent. of that requtired for bag ]land- I. Lindsay--Mt. "Marshall) (12.57] 1ling, mov- The MUinister for Works: You are not That leave be given to introdnee a Bill fer very much concerned about the wheat- an Act to provide for the handling of wheat growers. in bulk, and for the establishing and financing of a huilk handling system. Hon. A. MeCALLUMN: I think I grow ais much wheat as the bon. member, prob- HON. A. McCAI&UM (Souith Fremantle) ably more, but just now I am giving rea- [12.58]: If the Bill is what I expect it is, sons why I want thle leave to introduce al- I propose to submit certain amendments tered so that the title of the Bill can be iii Committee. T am afraid that if the amended. Not only does bulk handling leave to introduce remains as it has been mean the throwing out of work of men on moved, my amendments will he ruled out the wharves, hut they in turn will throw of order. In order that I might have anl out hundreds of others. I am positive that opportunity to move those amendments in bulk handling will mean the throwing out Committee, it will he necessary to amend of work of thousands of men. I saw the thle order of leave, so that my amendments system at both ends, watched it in Man- shall come within the Standing Orders. chester, Glasgow and Hull, and again in Not only do T want to move my proposed Montreal, 'Winnipeg, and Vancouver. amendments at the proper time, but I want The Minister for Lands: And you said to know now how many men the Bill is kind( things about it. I have here some going to displace. Bulk handling will Press cuttings. throw thousands of men out of work in this State, so while we are making the Hon. A. MeCALLUM: I said nothing the find- change we might Just as well make pro- about it. From what I have scent vision for finding employment for those ing of the Canadian committee of investi- men. I want that embodied in the Bill. gation was about right, and where we have At Freltantle there will be fromn 350 to 500 100 men employed now in the wheat in- men permanently thrown out of work, That dustry we shall have only 12 men tinder will mean that there will he from £2.500 to the bulk handling system. It is going £E3.000 les" per week paid in wages and to muake a marked difference. It may mean circulated at the Port. Every buisines that the wheatg-rower will not derive any benefit, which mnay be absorbed by the other manl in ]Fremantle will be affected. It wifl expenses. We hare carried on for genera- pairaly'se High-street, Fremantle. Mfore- tions improving the mechanism of industry over, this new unemployment will extend in a lopsided way. Shortly after the in- to Bunburv, Geraldton and Albany in a dustrial revolution operatives set about lesser deg-ree, for men at those ports will smashing- thle machinery. he sacrificed on the altar of bulk handlinz. I amn told there are 2.000) men employed The Attorney General: Did you ever read wheat lumiping at the various railway sid- "John Halifax, Gentleman"? 'iiies. Of course there will be no further Hon. .\. MceCALLT'Mf: Yes. 488 488(ASSEMBLY.]

The Attorney General: Those people hon. A. MeCALLU.M: It will have an talked as you are talking now. effect on values and the whole outlook of I-en. A. IMcCAILUMN: I am beginningF tie port will be altered. We have no right to think they were long-sighted. Provision to pass a Bill that will add thousands to was made for cheap production to displace the men already out of work. Their wives niany of those men, h1ut no provision was and children should not be thrown on the made to absorb them. For years trade cold world and required to live on Is. per unions have advocated shorter hours. of dlay under the dole system. 'We must tackle labour. the problem now. I have amendments to The Attorney General: I consider that is imove in Committee and I am submitting utterly fallacious and a policy of despair, this amendment. now in order that my amend- because our wrants are increasing all the nments in Committee shall not be ruled out Lime. or' order. The inister for Lands: Fancy using a rickshaw when a motor car is available! THE MINISTER FOR WORKS (Hon. Hon. A. -N-eCALLUMI: No one wants to J. Lindsay-Mft. Marshall-on amendment) do that. Sixteen thousand men are at pre- [1.10]:- I shall oppose the amendment. I am11surprised that the Deputy Leader the sent receiving help from the State and are of we going to add thousands to the number l Opposition should take such action at this It is our duty to provide now for the em- hour of the night. ployiuent of the men who will be displaced, lion. P. Collier: it is not a question of so that we shall stop the lopsided mnethods the hour of the night. of the past. This is the place to do it. The MINISTER. FOR WORI : It is the first time anything of the The Minister for Works: Well, let -as sort h been have it,. cle in my recollection. Hon. A. MeCALLUMA: The Minister Hlon. P. Collier: It is not. should not be impatient. I move an amend- The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The ment- member for South Fremantle (Hon, A. That the following words be added:-"'and McCallum) talks of thousands of men being to prov ide for the securing and financing in put ouit of work. WN-hy should we not pro- employment of those who lose their positions vide that the wheat farmlersishall foot the through the establiammnent of such system.'' bill? Surely the whole question can be dealt The amendment asks nothing unreasonable irith later. Let the bon. member wait until and is log-ical, particularly in view of the lie finds. out what the Bill contains. The unemployment difficulty now existing. Any wheat farmers of this State are providing system of- bulk handlin'g will throw men out between £400,000 and £C500,000 for people in of work. India for the bags that are imported into The MTinister for Works: I agree. the State. All this money would be saved Hoa. A. 'MeCALL'UM1: Then what does under the bulk handling system, and the the Minister propose to do? A-re the lumpers mioney kept -within the State. to be thrown on to the dole straight away? Mr. Wansbrough: It is all within the It is claimed that the scheme will save the British Empire. farmers 2d. per bushel. The MAhISTER FOR WORKS:I The Minister for Workis: I hope it wrill have heard the hon. member's party talk save them a lot more than that. about black labour. This is an important Hon. A. IeCALLUM: It might pay the Bill. The principal problem for our 'wheat State to retain the present system and sub- industry to-day is to reduce the cost of sidise the farmers to the extent of 2d. a production. The member for South Fre- bushel, rather than adopt bulk handling. mantle spoke of the saving of 2d. a bushel. I do not know that the possible effect of I am of opinion it would be much greater the scheme on the State has ever been in- than that. We are a great wheat-producing vestigated. The introduction of bulk hand- State, and I visualise the day when we shall ling will hare a ReaL effect on the business be producing 100,000,000 bushels. This pro- of Fremantle. p osal would help to bring that day nearer. The Minister for Works:- And India, I hope the amendment will be rejeeted. Hon. A. MeCALLUM3: I represent a Fre- mantle constituency. HON. P. dOLLIER (Boulder) (1.121:- Mr. Withers: Is not India part of the The Minister has not touched the point British Empire? embodiedl in the amendment. He is [7 SEEBE, 1932.] 489 surprised that it should be brought down Thle Attorney General: You would not like at this hour of the night. Must an amend- to see any Hill of this nature containing a went he judged according to the hour at clause providing for the employment of which ib is submitted ? The hon. member people who may be displaced? has not uttered a word ill oppositionL to bulk Thle M1inister for Railways: It would he hiandling. The talk about keeping people in like the pelican's, bill, all bill. work in India is beside the point. What the Hon, 1P. COLLIER: The Rouse mig-ht bion. meniber asks is that an opportunity decide upon the matter. We only ask for should be afforded in Committee to protect the opportunity to move amendments which those men who will be displaced from their could not be moved if this amendment were occupations. To secure that opportunity it not carried. is necessary to amend the order of leave. The Minister himself admits that a number Hon. S. WN.MNunsie: Within the last 18 of men will be thrown out of employment. months the Federal Parliament made special The Minister for Works: I agree. prvso for some 4,000 men who were to be Hon. P. COLLIER: We want the oppor- prit out of emiploymnent in the coanmining inidustry%in New South Wales. tunity to deal with the men who will be dis- placed. This is not the first time such anl Hon. P. COLLIER: It is not an oil- amendment has been moved. common occurrence. In the past when The Minister for Works: It is the first We have brought dowVn legislation time in mny experience. dealing wvith the examination of men Hon. P. COLLIER : Amendments have fre- required to hold certificates for jobs, in which certificates were not pre- quently been moved to a motion such as vionsly required, special provision was this. Our Standing Orders will not permit made for the men concerned. Provision was of amendments, which are outside the order made in those case., for meon who would or of leave, being made to atBill. We want to might be displaced. I consider that is the broaden the order of leave so that amend- mnents may be submitted. The Minister is proper place to dismiss such a matter. The Minister for 'Works seems to have asmd not committed to accept one or any of the and others wvill no doubt assumue. that the amendments. attitude of the member for South Flrenmantle The Minister for Works: That has nothing is one of opposition to bulk handling. It is to do with bulk handling. nothing of the kind. Hon. P. CO LLIFR: It is entirely wrapped The 'Minister for Works: It call only be up in the question, and a most important construed in that way. aspect of it. If Parliament favours the principle, anl obligation is east upon us to Hon. P. COLLIER : Thle Minister has no say what is going to be done with the men warrant whatever for sayinig that. It will who are put out of employment. depend onl the mnerits of thie suggestion. Part The Mfinister for Works: Put it into the of the demerits of the Bill may be time dis- Bill that the farmers shall keep them. placement of thousands of men. Although Hon. P. COLLIER : That is absurd. one might conclude that in the interests of The Minister for Works: That is what the wheat-growing industry and of the State, you are asking for. hulk handling is advisable and essential, what is it g-oing to cost the State? It iuay be a Honl. P. COLLIER: That is a ridiculous for the wheatgrowers. and a stupid statement. That go od thing is the kind The Minister for Lands: What is good for of talk the M~inister will use around the the farmer is good for the State. country. The Minister for Railways: Could not the Hon. P. COLLIER: Although good for matter be discussed under a Bill brought the wheatgrower, it mnay be bad for the State. clown byv the hon. member? We are not opposed to bulk handling. Per- Bon. P. COLLIER: The appropriate time sonallyv I am in favour of it if a case can be to discuss it is on this Bill. made out for it. The Attorney (lencral: You will not be Thle Minister for Works: You supported prevented from doinz so. hulk handling previously. Hon. P. COLLTER: The matter eon be Hron. P. COLLIER : I will support it discussed. butl we can move nothimw, with re- again if the Minister can make out a case. gard to it. We can take no definite action Ten years ago I may have said things in to lprotect the men. favour of bulk handling that I would not 490 [ASSE-MBLY.] say Lo-ditY. All thnt is aked for is oppor- The PREMIER: I dTo lot think ma. If lmty in tile direction of providing for the amendment were agreed to, it would :ie men who "jay be displaced. n long time before bulk handling would be- conic an acconiplished fact. THE PREMIER (Hon. Sir James Mr. Keuneally: No. Mitchell (Nortliam) [1.25]: It might rea- Hon. P. Collier: Why so? sonal l be nired that the introduction oif The PREMNIER : No proposal of a similar builk 1handlinlg will increase employment il nature would he advanced. Why have a the State, because it wvill ini myuease save it dredge , a drag line or any labour-saving good part of tile U600,000 sent out of tile machinery if we would lie better off regard- State last year foi' bags. We call employ ing emiplo -yment without it?9 All these nien on! y if we have filie mioney 'vi L which modern appliaiices niust miean improvement. 10 employ themn. I believe that bulk hland- Iknow it lot canl be said regarding the effee: ling will increase the amount of money of the advent of machinery, and with regard available for emiploymvient .A deputa boat to some it may be said that few have bene- told uts that £C73,000 was paid for the handi- Cted and many haive suffered. But that has l ing of whea t in a Y'ea r. That amount 1 not been so in maily instances. Surely i wo ]- j11iol tIOii :Lvlarge nunmber of men- - clannot be said that will be the position im probaiblY about 2501. If we wvent to thle regard to the proposal now before the Lake View and Star -Mine. we would see liouse. It. must not lie forgotten that 'ye autoimatic ma chintes wvhieli were not there a have to send £600,000 out of the State each jew years ago. But for the imnprov'ements year for bags. iii the methods of handling the ore, the mine lon. 1'. Collier: Let 'is stop that if we would not be working and men would not call. be employed. The same argument call be The PREIEIR : Yes. I assure thle used in favour of agriculture as is used it Leader of the Opposition and the mnember favou r of mining. The question which has for South Premantle that there is no inten- been raised will receive the fullest considera- tion, nor wish, to burke the fullest possible l ion, aid any1 inuquiries that lion. members discussion and inquiry' into the whole ques- think reasonable canll made. The subject tion. I do not agree that the amendment calls for very' faill inquiry indeed. Howvever. will facil itaste any such inquiry or achieve we must not confuse th~e issue Just now. I the object the lion, member wishes. Let uts agree that it would( not be good for thle discuss the matter on its merits. The full!- Slate it at saiving of 3d. per bushel mieanit est opportunity' will be given to consider the throwing, out of work of 10,000 men, every ashpect. hut I think it ran be shown that the adop- tion or the Rv,'eni will lead to greater em- MR. SLEEMAN (F'remantle) [1.32] ThIe I reluier's rehtlv ik iuisitisfaetoi'v. On lion. P. Collier: It is quite possible. svetrl oicasioiis sillee I have beenir into'l- The PREMlfIER : Onl the discussion of the ber. I hiaym cndea'ourcmd to itjnc vamrious proposal, ever 'y aspect of the question will Bills. hut I have been told by you, Air. be considered. I think .sucrh anl ameudnie, Speaker,' or b)'ythe ( linimmuan ul Cotmmit- as that of the member for South Fremantle fees. that, illtV aimemuinlts iveta otit of, order. has never been moved before. I had to aicept that ve-rdict. There ii notm- lion. S. W. Mnunsic: I dTonot remember 11W- umimeaioillble in thle atnieulmilemut pro- one in this House, hut in another place it poised by the nmimber formSouth Freimantle is (lone every (ayd of the week. (Hon. A. McCallum). If, at the end of the The PREMIER: If so, it is donie with .e(:id readinw debate, or dulln g the Coin. the object of defeating a Bill without tak- mnittee stage, the majority disagree with an ing a vote against it. alneadileict that it]he meniber for Souith Fie- lion. 1'. Collier: After all, the amend- matitle mnav desire, the Governient hioitl' nient only provides opportunity for discus- remember that they have a majority. Why, sing every aspect of the subject. then, hold (lie [-ouuse ill, il this early lioit The PREMIER : We can discuss every imce lv because of a harmless amueiidiitt phaise later on. tmoved by the member for South Freinantle 7 Hon. P. Collier: But Your hands are tied; Thme displeiiiz of meii from etiijlo 'vlieiit is a you cannot move. serious muater tiot only for the waterside (7 SEPEMBER, 1932.]19 491,

workers but for all sections of the corn- not the alindient be agreed to so, that if it mnunity. in my opinion there is no harm in iq dei red. i mend illeuts can he mloved labiour-savinPg devices prov'idedl that those en- to the Bill to provide for the ill- gaed in nd ustrv derive some lbenefit. What tercsts of other thlan the wlientgrowers. provision is maode in the Dill for we rkets If the G overnmient do not agree with any who niaM 10 (dislaiced it-oi their present ameiidiment moved, thley have the numbers etupitivinent i The micmber for South F~re- to vote it out. It is nto new thing for pro- manllte desire-, to mankec sure that something vision to he made for the absorption of willI e ilone. Surely the Premnier doe. not labour displaced by some change. When want another 8,000 or 12,000 unemployed the Great Southern railway was taken over, people onl his hands. It may be better for provision was made for the absorption of the Got-erment to grant a bonus of 2d. or the labour displaced. So, too, in making 3d. a lbisliel to the farmers aad keep, our- this propos.ed ehangeC, it is only ight that p)eople in wvork. wte should provide for those wvho will be 'fhe Mlinister for Railwavs : You wait to thrown out of work by the new system. send il(he oney to India. When dealing with tile Operautions at lar- vey the other night, the Minister sought Air. SLE EMAN :I want to keep our. pt, to justify' the use of obsolete machinery piec at wvork. Su rely the -Miiiister dioes ma:: on the score that it provided additional wanuthlousa nds more nien onl Ilks hands. work. The AMinister for- Railwavs : That i,, noti The Mfinister for Lands: The one is the point: you suggested at bonius ii, the tem'porary and the other permanent. ,farmuers. Mr. ICENNEALLY: But now when we 11r. SL[EEM1AN :I said it might be better propose to give the House anl opportunity for I-lie State. I hanve not gone into the fig- to discuss the question of providing fo~r tires but the suggestion may be Worthy of tile men to be thrown out of work byv thle consd cml ion. Because of Ik amnudmient. thc bulk handling system, the Minister does memluer for- South Fremnantle is atiset of not approve. If the 2l1inister is not going holdingz upl the proreedinzS. We have had 1 to discuss this question, he will antago- samples of labour-savinlg m hinellltr. 0 1' nise many now in favour of the bulk hand- have beenl installed for Work onl super h~l ling system. We onl this side do not ag-ree an o hoaoats. Who reeived mnvxi beli. with the M1inister's inclination to let the systeml? Certaiiilv the woikr fiont that men thrown oiit of employment go to hell, did not benefit. Probalyl the middlemenu as hie virtually said. That attitude will not were 1he only 'v(,ineswho scured allyi benlefit. help him get the Bill through. TChe prob- The Governmnt caninot have a1 strong vause lem of providing for the meni who will be inl faviour or bulk handlin if theY are not thrown outl of work is capable of being prepa:'red to al low tlie aneme1(1en t to be solved. and if it is to be solved this is the piassedi. stage at which wve shonld begin to consider it. It is%claimed that the proposed system MR. KENIQTALLY (East Perth) [1.36]: wvill result in a saving to the farmer of 3d. It will b e admitted that the in troduaction of per bushel, or approximately £500,000 per the pro posed B ill ile meani the i naugui-a - ann thu. Bn t that is not the whole of the tion of a niew- erat in wheat handinbg. It i story, for if it is going to put out of work introduced in altogether at wrongl- atm''.- ol 1.000 mcli, who w-ill have to look to phere. seeing that the Alinisi or sa vs he w-ill the Government for assistance, and if it give attention to olie phase only. the hand- means, say. £2 per wveek for each of those ling of wheat. Surely others besides farm- nlen, we hlave in that one itemt alone a de- ers are interested. The people of the State duetion of £104,000 per annum. If this ale vonoerned. Iii the rircii istau'-es. we measure is to be discussed, the House must should give close attention to the effect Ill' take into consideration the interests of all legislation wrill have onl the people'. !1 ; sections ivorkinig in the wheat industry, useleqs for the Premier to sayv that we will not oly tho~e who grow the wheat, hut have even'y opportunity' to eon~idler all ja also those who handle it. I am prepared 1)ects fif the problem. It will lie 'your dut v, to (1is'-us, the Bill onl its merits, be- Alr. Speaker, to say, whlethier discussioii zan lieving as T do that we should ad- preterit aIoIg certainl lines. \hiY sh1ould vance with the times and accept eve" 402 [ASSEMBLY.) bejielit that improved machinery brings to producing wheat. If the bulk handling sys- the human race. But we are not going to tem were installed, I believe those men could do that, if our consideration is to be re- produce wheat profitably. stricted to sectional interests alone.. Alr. Withers: You would not reduce the importation of bags by £500,000? THE MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE The MINISTER FOR, AGRICULTURE: (Hon. P. D. Ferguson-Irwin-Moore) [1.40] A farner who produces 10,000 bags of I oppose the amendment. The subject of wheat told me that he would never buy bulk handling has no relation to the question another bag after bulk handling was intro- of providing employment. The Bill is to duced. provide for a scheme of bulk handling, and Hon. A. _McCallum: Your figures include that should be dealt with on its merits and superphosphate bags. not camiouflaged by introducing the subject The MIINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: of employment. No, they present the bags for an ordinary Mr. SleeinanI: You do not call that camou- harvest of 40,000,000 to 50,000,000 bushels. flage, (10 you? The farmer who buys super in bags The MINISTER FOR AGRICLTURE: will wash them carefully and put into Yes, there is a. right place to discuss iunein- them the wheat he has to bag, pendin~g ploynient. This is the time to deal with hulk carting to the siding. I do not expect to buy handling. another bag and I think that wvill apply to Mr. Kenneallv: And create more unein- many farmers. Of the amount at present lploynlellt. sent overseas for bags there will be enough The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: money saved to put every man now employed We hiave it onl thle authority' of those handling iii handling wheat on to a farm, if necessary. the wheat that £73,000 per ainnumins spent Mr. Sleemian: This is the place to make on that work, If we allow that those hand- provision for it. ling it receive an average of £4 a week, 365 The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: mn arc engaged in handling- it. 'No, this is not the time to discuss unemnploy- Mr. Sleeman: Where? mient. Possibly it could be discussed when The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: the Estimates of the Minister dealing with At the ports and sidings of this State. unemploymient are being considered. The ll. A. Ve~allun,: I was given 2,000 memiber for South Fremantle (Hon. A. Mc- as the number of mien employed at the sid- Callum) is endeav-ouring to camouflage the proposal and throw dust in the eyes of mem- ings. That was the figure of the merchants. bers of this House. The -MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: Hon. P. Collier: The Minister is not justi- I am giving the equivalent of full-tine eiu- fled in saying that. ployees. At the sidings men airc employed Thle -MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: for about one month in the year. I am. Hon. A. McCallumn: No. Hon. P. Collier: I ask for a withdrawal The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: of the statement that the member for South If the mell engaged in handling wheiat were Fremantle is throwing dust in the eyes of employed the whole yea, round at £4 a week, members of this House. 365 men would be engaged. Mr. Sleeinan: Are they employed oly.% one The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: month per year? Should I withdraw it, Mr. Speaker? It is so palpably hrue. The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: Hon. P. Collier: I ask for an unqualified At the sidings. withdrawal. Mr. Sleejuan: No, four months. The AfJNISTER FOR AGRICU'LTURE: The 'MINISTER FORl AGRICULTURE: I withdraw. At the average siding the men get four, five or perhaps six wveeks of full-time work. In MR. COVERLEY (Kimberley) [1.45]: anl average year we send out of Western Aus- I do not intend to delay the House. tralia £C500,000 for hags. If we divide that The Minister for Lands: You have no bulk amongst the 365 men, it would amount to handling of wheat up your way. £1,888 per man, which amount would be Air. COVERLEY: No, but I appreciate sufficient to establish everyone who is work- the attitude of Ministers. We have never ing full time on a farm where he could go on had such a ready response on the part of [7 SEPT~EES, 1932.] 4493,

Ministers as we have had on this Subject. NlOES. Mr. Angelo Mr. MeLarry The Premnier and two other Ministers have Mr. Barnard Sir James Mitchell spoken in the course of half an hour, al- Mr. Brown Mr. Parker Mr. Church Mr. Patrick though they had sat for three weeks and Mr. Davy Mr. Fiasso Mr. Donsy .Mr. Richardson said nothing. Mr. Ferguson Mr. Sampson The Minister for Works: That is not Mr. Latham Mr. Scaddan M r. Lindsay Mr. Wells right. M r. H. W. Mann Mr. North The Minister for Lands: Next time we will Mr. J. I. Mann (Teller.) keep you here until 4 o'clock in the morn- Amendment thus negatived. ing. Hon. P. Collier: That does not matter, *Question put and passed. WVe can stay as well as you. First Reading. Mr. COVERLET: The attitude of the Minister for Works and the Minister for Bill introduced and read a first time. Agriculture is very unfair. There has been no intimation from this side of the House that we intended to oppose bulk handling. BILL-STATE TRADING CONCERNS All we ask is to be allowed to amend the ACT AMENDMENT (No. 1). order of leave so that further discussion First Reading. may Lake place, if necessary. The Minister spoke of camnouflage, inferring that we were THE MINISTER FOR WORKS (Hon. deliberately opposed to bulk handling. That J. Lindsay-Mt. Marshall) 12.3] : 1 move- may he A right in the House, but it will That ]eave be given to introduce the Bill. not go down with the farmers. The Minister for Works: You are de- MR. SLEEMAN (Fremnantle) [2.4]: liberately opposing the introduction of the I do not know that we would be in order Bill. in permitting this motion to be passed. The Mr. COVERLET: Nothing of the kind. time of the House should not be wasted onl Hon. P. Collier: Not at all. We are not putting a Bill of this sort through all its opposing it. stages. Were the Government sincere in 11r. COVERLEY: 'Members on this side wvanting to assist the farmers, they would of the House believe in co-operation . and make these works what they should be for bulk handling represents co-operation on the the manufacture of agricultural implements. part of those engaged in the wheat industry. We do not want to see money continually 1 have realised for a long time that logic flowing to the Eastern States and Canada does, not count in this Chamber. 1 remem- that ought to be spent in Western Australia. ber when sitting on the other side of the One member of the Government admitted House sonic ansendmnent was moved and di- that we had the tradesmen and the material agreed with, and the present Ministerfo in this country. 'What is to prevent the Agriculture for one twitted us about using works being established on a proper basis in a brutal majority. We might direct that order that our farmers might be supplied same criticism at him to-night. It is not with locally-made machinery? I intend to correct to say that we are opposed to bulk rote against the motion. handling. Question put and passed; Bill introduced Amendment put and division taken with and read a first time, the following result: Ayes 16 Noes 21 BILLS (22)-FIRST READING. 1, M-%ain Roads Act Amendment. Majority against . . 5 2, Road Districts Act Amendment. AYES. 3, Factories and Shops Act Amendment. 'Mr. Colier Mr. Munale 4, Special License (Waroona Irrigation M~kr.Corhay Mr, Nelsen r.Coverley Mr. Raphael District). Miss Holman Mr. Sleeman Mr. Ken neally Mr. Wansbrough Introduced by the Minister for Works. Mr. Marshall Mr. Willcock I..r. MeICailum Mr. withers 5, Metropolitan Whole Milk. Mr. Millington Mr. Wilson (Teller.) 6, Fnuit Cases Act Amendment. 494 494[ASSEMBLY.]

7, Dairy Cattle Improvement Act Amend- lioni. A. MeCALLUAI: The discussion will ment. be confined to the continuing clause? Introduced by the Minister for Agricul- The Attorney General: Yes; hot that, of ture. course, is subject to -Mr. Speaker's ruling. 8, Financial Emergency Act Continuance. Mr. SPEAKER: I hare not seen the Bill, 9, Mortgagees' Rights Restriction Act Honi. Ak. McCALLflI: If the section is Continuance. to be amended. we shall hav-c the right to 10, Constitution Acts Amendment Act, discuss it. (1931), Continuance. The Attorney General : This is a caution- 11, Farmers' Debts Adjustment Act in Bill. Amendment. Hon,. P. Collier: The Title does not say-so. 12, Reduction of Rents Act Continuance. Introduced by the Attorney Genera!. The Attorneyv General : No. Probabtly\ thle draftsman has slipped a bit there. He ought 13, East Perth Cemeteries. to have made this Bill similair to thle 'itliers. 14, Land Act Consolidation. it has exactly thle same effect a1s the ,,tlcrz 15, Swan Land Revesting. have. 16, Closed Roads Alienation. Hon, A. M\cCA1.LUM1: TIht odrh ore Introduced by thle Minister for Lands. aunendiuig Bills. 17, Public Service Appeal Board Act The Attorney General : NO ; VonltintioNb Amendment. Bills, Introduced by Mr. Richardson. Honu. A. MeCALLUMf: We shiall he ale-, 18, Criminal Code Amendment (No. 1). to move amendments, too. 19, Criminal Code Amendment (No. 2). Thle Attorney GFeneral: I do not think so. 20, Land and Income Tax Assessment Fur- Hon. A. MeCALLUM--: In this ease, then, ther Amendment. only one section comes up for discussion. If fIntroduced by Mr. H. W. Mann. we wsant to review the measure, the Attorney Generhi ought to give us an opportunity to 21, Aged Sailors and Soldiers' Relief discuss it. He shoold not restrict us to dis- Fund. cussing whether or not thre Act is to he coni- Introduced by Mr. Parker. tinned. 22, Timbcr Workers. The Attorney General: My view is that Introduced by Miss Holman. you can discuss the merits of continuing or not, but that the House will not be iii a posi- tion to amend other sections. BILLI,-TENANTS, PURCHASERS AND Hon. P. Collier: Except those in the Bill. MORTGAGORS' RELIEF ACT Hon. A. M1eCALLU'M: It rests with you, AMENDMENT. Mr. Speaker, to say whether the order of leave will allow uts to amend other parts of Leave to introduce. the Act. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Honl. The Attorney General: I do not agree with TV. A. L. Davy-West Perth) 12.25]: 1 roil1. move- Han. A. McCALIJUM:. We will argue that That leave he given to introduce a 13111for later on. The order of leave hlas not been an Act to amend Section 29 of the Tenants, confined to one section where the Bills to Purchasers and Mortgagors' Relief Act, 1930. amend other Acts are concerned. 'Mr. Richardson : This Bill will apply to HON. A. MeCALLUM (South Fremnantle) one section only. (2.26]: This Bill is merely a proposal to Hon. P. Collier: It will not r-estrict diseas3- amend one seetion? sian, but will confine us to the one section. The Attorney General: That is the con- The Attorney General: That is the inten]- tinuation. tion. t Hon. A. McCALLU M: Does the Bill Haon. A. McCALLUM: I think the Attor- allow opportunity to discuss all the licy General wrill agree that this Act in par- sections 7 ticular -requires amendment in the interests The Attorney General: No. of both landlord and tenant, I urge him to [8 SEPTEMBER, 1932.] 495 arrve tile mnotion in sulch t total that xvi! I The ATTOWtNEY GENERAL: Yes. &liable ius to deal with other section., or the Subject to Your ruling, Mr. Speaker, T Act. consider the short title of the Bill is ex- actly equivalent to the short title in other THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. orders of leave already obtained from the T. A. L. Davy-West Perth-in reply Hfouse. I dto not think it will li mit di, [2.30] : The same point was raised cussion any more thau will the other last year when the Government intro- orders. We desire the Act to be continued duced a Bill designed to continue the and that is all it means. If menmbers de- operations of the parent Act. The ob- sire to effect other amendments, they canl jection was raised that it should he openl t. introduce separate Bills and they will be Parliament to amend every section, but the givemi every facility. answver given then was that if anyone desiredl to move other amendments, they could in - HON. A. MeCALLUM (South Fremantle) troduce a sep~arate measure. The mnember [2:15] : 1 move anm iinett~- for Fremantle (Mr. S leemran) did i ntroilue That the words ''Section 2 off btrtek a Bill to amend other sections of the Act wuit if the order of leave. and the measure was discussed. That wvill give us an opportunity to move Mr. Sleman : I did not get failr with it. other amendments. As it is. the Attorney The ATTORNEY GENERAL; -Because General's proposal means the introduction the House disagreed with you. of two or mnore Bills where one could effect Mr. Sleeman: And that was bail luck the desired end. Why make two bites at for a lot of the tenants. the one cherry? The ATTORNEY GENERAL: That may Ansendinen t put and negatived. be0 so, but the point now is whether this Bill will enable members to amend ariy section Questionl Pust and passed. of the Bill other than Section 29. Mr. Sleemian: We should be allowed to lirsi Readivy. dIiscuss any part of the Act. Bill introduced and read a rs.t time. The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The hon. member wvill be able to do so. lo use ad o irn ed (it 2.40 a. a. (Thursday). Mr. Sleemnan : But it is useless discuss- ing other sections if we cannot ameond them. The ATTORNEY GENERAL: This is a Government measure and] we desire that the Act shall be continued for another year. Mr. Sleenian: Do you not think we Ilcgillative C-ouncil, shouild be allowed to improve it. Mr. Renneally: As that is the inten- Thursday, 8th Septembs er, 1932. tion of the Government cannot we move for the continuance in some other way!~ PAGE The ATTORNEY GENERAL: There is eave of Absence ...... 405 day ...... 408 no wicked sinister design behind the Gov- Address-in-rcply, seventh ernment 's intention. lMr. Kenneally: T.am not assuming that there is. The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.30 The ATTORNEY GENERAL; I think pin., and read prayers. that the probable explanation of the fact that the motion in this instance differs from those relating to the other Bills we LEAVE Or ABSENCE. have dealt with is that another draftsman On motion by Hor. H. Seddon, leave of framed the short title of the Bill. absence for six consecutive sittings granted Hon. P. Collier: Does Section 29 deal to Hon. F. W. Allsop on the round of ill- with the continuance of the Acts health.