there on Wednesday nights and listen On a brisk March morning, I while Dunnigan lectured on what games visited noted game designer were all about and how you designed them. Quite frankly, that was really Mark Herman in his office in where I got started. Ultimately, when I got out of college, I was working as a Crystal City, a high-tech tree expert in the summer of 1976 and I called Howie Barasch, who told me the corporate district in Northern receptionist job at SPI had just become available. Which, by the way, was a Virginia. From his llth floor $5200 a year salary. The reason I took the job was because if you sold games office, he commands a view of over the counter, you had to be knowl- edgeable about games. And the way the Potomac River, as well as they (SPI) were organized, the reception- ist in reality was the lowest job on the many of the monuments R&D staff. The agreement was that I could go to R&D meetings on Tuesday, which make up the and I took the job. These were the days Washington, D.C. skyline. We of the monster games, and Highway to the Reich (SPI, 1977) was going belly up. spent the next hour discussing playtesting sessions. 'After we get to It was late, it wasn't happening, and Jay know you, maybe you'll write some Nelson - the other guy who was laugh- Mark's background in game articles for Moves magazine, and that's ing back at the SPI booth at Origins - also how you start the process.' I started had all these S&T games to design on design and his thoughts on the showing up on Friday nights, and the schedule. Now the S&T games were on first thing I tested was Howie's a very strict production timeline, because present and future of Huertgen Forest (SPI, 1976). of the magazine schedule, so I volun- teered to help Jay out, and that's how I wargaming. Herewith the got the October War (SPI, 1977) project JJV: That was one of the games from (Mark's first design credit). Within SPI's Westwall quad, wasn't it? results of that discussion. another month I was no longer the receptionist -1 was on the R&D staff full MH: Yeah, and it didn't work. Howie time. JJV: Mark, let's start with the basic didn't know how to fix it, so I sat down, interview question for all designers. played it out, suggested what he needed JJV: Every so often, in someone's How did you get your start in wargame to do to fix it, wrote out about four rules, reminiscences, one hears of an amor- design? and those rules went verbatim into the phous "SPI Experience" - the atmo- game. That told the guys at SPI that sphere of working there. Do you have MH: I've been gaming since I was maybe I had my head plugged in, and any particularly vivid memories? twelve, but my real start came at the first then I was invited to come to training Origins national game convention sessions for the Research & Development (Baltimore, Maryland 1975). I went up to staff. (Jim) Dunnigan, (Redmond) MH: In a nutshell, the SPI experience was Jim Dunnigan's philosophy. That's the SPI (Simulations Publications, Inc.) Simonsen, and Irad Hardy, who was the all it was. Jim's a very good friend and a booth and asked how I could become a head of R&D then, would basically great designer, but he did something that game designer, which got me a big lecture the staff on their views on how to no other company president ever did. chuckle from all the people there. I design games. They actually charged - He believed in the concept of apprentice- remember Kevin Zucker was one of people could pay money to come to ship. He acknowledged that the them, and he said to talk to this guy these. I was there for nothing, and Rich economics of the company revolved named Howie Barasch. Howie told me Berg and Greg Costikyan were the only around cheap labor. Jim realized the fact the way to start was to show up on people paying to attend. We would sit Friday nights for the big, open

that it was going to be very hard for was really telling me. I learned how to MH: Right, it may mess me up that way. someone to stay here for his career. This explode old myths by taking that I look to see what's going on in a battle, was a place where you came in, you did approach. To carry this forward to GMT, and I draw flow charts to understand the your thing, and at some point you in The Great Battles of Alexander game, situation. From that analysis, I can see f moved on to another job. Jim expected when I looked at the situation, I decided the dynamics coming out of the data. ; that. And I'll tell you, when I did Battle that command was a key factor that had That's where I feel I keep a fresh for Jerusalem (SPI, 1977) with him - I did been missed in earlier designs. Plus the perspective. The other thing I do is try to a lot of games with him, and they were tactical systems. The reason the push the state of the art. I look at the all learning experiences - but in this one, Macedonians were beating everyone - mechanics of game design and keep he taught me what the word 'deadline' fighting larger armies and consistently asking myself if there is a better way to meant. He said, "If you don't cross this winning - is that they had a true present a situation. That comes across in line with this product on this date, combined arms view of the world. They some small ways, too. I may use a you're dead." He would fire people. had the tactical system to beat the other different Combat Results Table to Dunnigan had this process where he guy's tactical system, and they had the present different dynamics of a style of brought in very young people to work command system to effectively employ combat. on the games, he would bring in the their tactics. Alexander is a classic public to test the games, but he insisted example of how I employed Dunnigan's • that the designers had to be in touch philosophy. with their games. He viewed it very JJV: My favorite design of yours is still much as an art. We had a lot of people JJV: Obviously, Jim Dunnigan had a Gulf Strike (Victory Games, 1983). Did there, working very cheap, but there was major impact on you during the you see that as pushing the state of the always the dynamic interaction going on. formative years. Did anyone else have art at the time? We had a lot of talented people there. nearly so strong an influence on your Rich Berg, Kevin Zucker, Irad Hardy, design style? MH: It certainly did at the time. When I Brad Hessel, Frank Davis - the list goes looked at the dynamics of modern on. That creative interchange made for a MH: The only other big influence has warfare for that design, I found that really neat environment. So that was the been the experience of being a father. other games showing land, air and sea SPI Experience for me. With the change in my lifestyle, I now combat portrayed them all as discrete design games differently. I set a time events. You'd have a land phase, and an JJV: You talk about Dunnigan's limit on how long the game is going to air phase, and a naval phase, along with philosophy of game design as an art. take to play. In a sense, I'm trying to a mechanism to link them all together. On the flip side, the design-as-science design so that people who have real lives But what I saw in the dynamics of side, did he also infuse a lot of the can sit down and play these games. But modern warfare is that the combinations statistics-heavy operational research to go back to your original question, no are important. I may want to use a into the design process and apprentice other individual springs to mind. certain sequencing of air or naval strikes, training back then? Collectively, everybody at SPI had some or some combination that couldn't be impact on me. I'd look at a designer and represented in an existing game system. MH: No question about it. The thing I borrow some techniques; from the So, in the sequence of play for Gulf got from Jim - which I think he did negative aspect, I'd also see something Strike, I allowed the player to move any better than anybody else, and I always and say to myself, "I'm never going to piece on the board at any time in any try to emulate this - is how he would work like that!" order, and that was the trick. I think it look at a situation and analyze it for its succeeded, given that Gulf Strike is underlying dynamics. That was part of JJV: We won't mention any names probably one of my best sellers. the Operational Research number- here. Let's move on. You decide on a crunching. He would focus on two or conflict as a topic for a simulation, then JJV: It was received well enough to three elements that he thought were key you distill it to its essence of two or support two update kits. dynamics of the situation, and every- three key elements. Then what? thing would be made to work within MH: Right, and I'd like to do something those dynamics. Every numerical part MH: Actually, before I decide on those else along those lines someday. Overall, had to work within that framework, and elements, I read and try to accumulate it was a really satisfying design. he had a way of keeping the messages raw data. But one thing I never do is clear. His games didn't tend to wander look at another game on the same topic JJV: While we're on the subject of your off into lots of minutia - detail for at any time during the design process. It personal preferences, what would you detail's sake was not there. Everything screws up my thinking. consider your favorite, or most satisfy- was made to work within a very ing design? coherent design, and that's something I JJV: You try to block out any precon- definitely learned from him. I learned ceived notions of how it's been done MH: I'm very satisfied with Mechwar 2 how to look at the data, and see what it before? (SPI, 1979) from my pre-Victory days - that was from the time when I was really hitting my stride. They used to have a

saying at SPI that it took you six games pubs, doctrine, what have you. In the members played each other's games. to figure out how to do it, but you had to space of a month, I knew more about the That in-house testing was critical in our be good enough to survive the first six. subject than anyone else on the staff. So quality control process. I felt that the I've always liked October War (SPI, it came to be that my two niches were designers needed to play other games, 1977). I had a bad spate then working the ancient and the modern eras. And, and we got a lot more out of that testing with Frank Davis. A lot of those games over the past sixteen years, I've done than from bringing in outsiders. didn't really come out well. After SPI, I everything in between. The Pacific War was very satisfied with Gulf Strike, and was always something I've been inter- JJV: How did you hook up with GMT? particularly so with Pacific War (Vic- ested in, and now I'll be getting more tory, 1985). It's the first game in my into the American Civil War for GMT. MH: Blame it on Rich Berg. We're very whole life that really came together just I've always wanted to do a strategic Civil good friends, our wives even get along, the way I wanted it to. And I've been War game, and now I'll get the chance. but we never worked together much very satisfied with the three most recent professionally. Back when he started up games I've done - Flashpoint: Golan JJV: Let's fast-forward from SPI into Simulations Design Inc., he mentioned to (Victory), Peloponnesian War (TAHGC), the Victory days. me that he wanted a Great Battles of the and The Great Battles of Alexander for American Civil War for the ancient period. GMT Games. They've really made me MH: It was a fantastic experience! For I always wanted to fix Phalanx (SPI, happy. once in my life, I really was where I 1971), and I wanted to do Alexander the wanted to be. Long-term economics and Great, so I agreed to do it for SDI, and JJV: It appears you've been doing a lot having a family made me realize it signed a contract to do the game. Well, of ancients work lately. Is this just a wasn't going to last forever, but it was when SDI hooked up with GMT, he in phase, or do you have some long- great while it lasted. Just think about the essence sold my contract to Gene standing interest in the area? talent that walked in the door when SPI Billingsley. At the time, I didn't know shut down and we started Victory. It Gene Billingsley. So Rich Berg basically MH: Actually, my degree from college was like having an elite unit, and I was sold me to GMT like an indentured was in Ancient History. honored to be able to lead those guys. servant! But I still work with Rich a lot, We tried to learn from what SPI had and I'm really looking forward to this JJV: Which is why you can pronounce done wrong, and also to go beyond. One strategic ACW venture. It looks like a all those obscure names better than big problem at SPI was that they didn't collaborative venture involving me, Rich, anyone else. pay attention to the business side once Gene and Rodger. Dunnigan was gone. Dunnigan was MH: I'm not sure if I do, but nobody plugged into the business side, and he JJV: And you don't foresee any seems to know any better, so no one calls was always working it. problems with the long-distance design me on my pronunciation. But back when coordination? I got to SPI, everybody seemed to have JJV: That much should have been clear an area of expertise, and at that time, it to anyone who read "Outgoing Mail" in MH: Not at all. Look at Alexander. We was very chic to be a Napoleonic Strategy & Tactics on a regular basis. had the designer in Washington, the designer. If you were doing Napoleonic developer in New York, the map artist in designs, you were somebody. There was MH: After Jim left, they brought in a Florida, the publisher in Hanford, and a distinct pecking order of what was business consultant who was better in the art director in Santa Monica, Califor- important. When I got there, I definitely theory than in practice, and the place nia. We did it all electronically, and the had a feel for ancients. In fact, the first went to hell in a hand basket in a hurry. first time I saw the game was when it thing I ever put my hands on was The So, learning from the SPI experience, I was released at Origins. And I was very Conquerors (SPI, 1977) with Rich Berg. was determined to pay close attention to pleased with the way it came out. The It's kind of funny, given that he and I are the business aspects. Regardless of what only time any of us were collocated was teamed up on these ancients games for people think of me as a game designer, I when I was in New York for business, GMT. I did some playtesting and tried know for a fact that I am one of the best and Rich and I got together to play a few to help him; I guess if I had helped him business game designers around. I was scenarios. Other than that, it was an less, the game would have been more trained in a business family, and learned amazing long distance electronic successful (chuckle of self-effacing a lot from my father. So gaming was just experience. laughter). But when I got there, I another business. What I really brought identified early on that modern games to Victory was this business sense, the JJV: You've mentioned the strategic were just coming on line, and only ideas on how to make sure we sold the Civil War game several times so far. Dunnigan was doing them. I came to the stuff and stayed in business. Another Can you tell us what other game conclusion that you can only do Napo- plus at Victory was that I had the most projects you have in the hopper, both leon so many times, at least in terms of a amazing editorial and art staff. One last firm plans as well as ideas off on the career. I read everything in the SPI thing I did at Victory was an insistence horizon? library on modern warfare - technical that, on every Wednesday, all the staff

MH: I've always wanted to do an own desire. cations. I think that, eventually, two American Revolution game and a Punic humans will still play the game, but it Wars game, and I'll do those at some JJV: But are boardgames a dying will be played out over time, using the point. In fact, I've got the Punic War medium, to be replaced by computers? computer as a referee through phone game on the Victory production sched- lines and modems. That's my guess on ule, and it will be based on the MH: So far, boardgames have done a how wargames will evolve. Peloponnesian War system. I would like few things that computers are incapable to do a whole series on the evolution of of doing. Computer games are lousy JJV: Even now, as you lambaste the tactical systems - following up on opponents, always have been. In a capabilities of computer games, aren't Alexander and SPQR to the Crusades game, you may have 32 or 64 or even you working on a computer version of and Byzantium. I want to work on more 100K worth of computerized enemy Peloponnesian War? Is that essentially strategic games, with the Civil War being reactions to the human moves. By a computer version of your Victory the first. comparison, the human brain is Games title from last year? probably working with a couple billion JJV: This tactical series sounds some- kilobytes of capability, so I sort of feel MH: Yes, and where I think it will be thing like a 1990's version of the old sorry for people who can't beat the different as a computer game is that, in PRESTAGS (SPI, 1975), showing a computer. Unless, of course, the game the board game, you actually play both progression of warfare over a multi- is rigged or the human player faces such sides, and that aspect will carry over into game series. Is that fairly accurate? a numerical disadvantage that it would the computer format. So the Artificial keep him from winning. Otherwise, all Intelligence function is the human MH: Yes, in that sense. I have always other things being equal, a human player, not computer code. I'm not been very interested in the evolution of should be able to hose the computer relying on this fairly stupid box to tactics and strategy, and I'm fascinated in time after time. Another element is the handle those functions. Another thing the things that have changed and the progress we're seeing in telecommuni- computers don't do very well is handle things that have stayed constant. So this the Input-Output functions. If you look game series will really let me explore at a game board with the pieces laid out, that. Hopefully the public will want to assuming you're not a klutz, you can explore it with me. pick up your pieces and move them, and combat is a brief process. For example, JJV: Last question. Everyone has an in Alexander, once you've got the game opinion here, so let me get yours. system down, it takes about 15 seconds What's your outlook for the wargame to figure out a shock combat. Move your hobby: decline, equilibrium, or pieces, roll the die, and look up the growth? result. With a computer, the interface is a much more tedious process. The MH: I thought the original decline interface with manual games is still occurred because of the inadequacies of much better, although I expect that will our educational system and the declining change with time. The last point I want ability to read in the late 70s and early to make here is that strategy games on 80s. We had a massive brain drain then. the computer are really just vertical Secondarily, we had new media coming board games. They even have squares or into play - computers, primarily. I think hexes for moving around the board. we're in a period now where kids of Why can't they use arrows, for instance, people who play games will pick up the or other symbols? Because they're hobby. We're going to get fresh blood relying so heavily on board games, that's not from people who are totally unac- why. So computer games are slower, quainted with games, but from a they don't play as well, and they're not generation-to-generation passing of the as pretty. Until those things change, baton. board wargames will have an advantage. Over time, I think we'll grow and JJV: Your kids, my kids... prosper, but with a changing medium.

MH: Exactly. My daughter plays JJV: On that note, I'll close my ques- ^ wargames. She's eight years old and she tioning. Thanks for your time, Mark. asks me, on her own, if we can play a game. I guess I brainwashed her before MH: It's been fun. Thanks, John. she knew she was being brainwashed, but now she wants to play out of her