Tuesday Volume 542 13 March 2012 No. 278

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 13 March 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 119 13 MARCH 2012 120

Mr Clarke: As I have said, we are building on the House of Commons great work that is already being done, not least in my hon. Friend’s constituency. The purpose of prisons, it Tuesday 13 March 2012 seems to me, is first to punish for crime, and secondly to reform as many criminals as possible. The second aim has been neglected in recent years, but the kind of work The House met at half-past Two o’clock that my hon. Friend describes ought to be replicated as much as possible throughout the system, and that is the PRAYERS end towards which we are working. Richard Graham: I welcome the Secretary of State’s [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] comments. He knows about the existing business in Her Majesty’s prison Gloucester, where prisoners repair bicycles which a charity then sends to Africa. It is a not-for-profit BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS business. How does my right hon. and learned Friend think we could ensure that if the business were profitable TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL it would not undercut businesses outside the prison, PROVISIONS)BILL [LORDS](BY ORDER) bearing in mind that paying the minimum wage might Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday set a precedent in regard to other rights for prisoners? 20 March (Standing Order No. 20). Mr Clarke: One of the things about which we try to be scrupulous is ensuring that work in prisons does not Oral Answers to Questions undercut the work done by businesses employing honest employees outside. We would not be able to persuade organisations such as the CBI and our private sector partners to work with us if they thought that we were JUSTICE undercutting British competitors. We will not pay the minimum wage, because the taxpayer would find that he or she was footing the bill for it all. However, the The Secretary of State was asked— costs of running a business in prison are considerable because of the security that is imposed. We intend to Work in Prisons ensure, by means of a code of practice, that fair and proper competition is maintained and that we do not 1. Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): What undercut ordinary honest businesses. plans he has to promote work in prisons. [99255] Esther McVey: Given that, at present, 47% of offenders 4. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): What plans are receiving out-of-work benefits two years after their he has to promote work in prisons. [99258] release from prison, I fully support what the Secretary of State is doing. What plans has he to ensure that there 6. Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): What plans he is a smooth transition from work preparation in prison has to promote work in prisons. [99260] to actual work outside prison?

9. Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) Mr Clarke: Along with the Department for Work and (Con): What plans he has to promote work in prisons. Pensions, we have just embarked on a system whereby [99264] people who are released from prison go straight on to the Work programme. Their receipt of benefits is tied to 16. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What plans he a programme aimed at getting them back to work if has to promote work in prisons. [99272] that is at all possible, as it would be for anyone else. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend: all the evidence The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice shows that having a job is one of the main factors that (Mr Kenneth Clarke): We have ambitions to deliver a determine whether someone stops returning to crime, step change in the amount of work done in prisons. and it also stops the taxpayer having to pay benefits to By making use of the lessons learned from the prisons such a high proportion of ex-prisoners. that are already delivering full working weeks, we will work with the public and private sectors—including Mr Evennett: If my constituents are to have faith in commercial customers and partners—and through the work in prisons, it is vital that inmates not only learn to prison competition system to make our ambitions real. work, but learn to become used to the routine of work. How much time per week does my right hon. and Matthew Hancock: The Secretary of State will know learned Friend expect to be assigned to prisoners for of the great work being done in Her Majesty’s prison work? Highpoint, in my constituency, which is one of our biggest category C prisons. Enabling third sector, private Mr Clarke: Just the routine of working is very important. and other providers to work with prisoners before they I believe that 13% of prisoners have never had a paid are released has improved their chances of finding job in their lives, and about half have not been in a paid accommodation and work on release. What further job in the last month before they arrive in prison. We action is the Secretary of State taking to ensure that aim to have a 40-hour week whenever possible, consistent that is replicated throughout the country? with the other demands of the prison regime. Apart from 121 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 122 skills and training, just getting people used to the daily monitor whether they are taking their medicine at the routine of a working day is a good preparation for an appropriate time. What steps is the Department taking, honest life in the outside world. alongside the Department of Health, to ensure that appropriate medicines, including longer-lasting medicines Fiona Bruce: Many people hope that inmates will such as injections that last a month, are part of the take advantage of work in prison so that they can pay process, thereby helping people to have a smooth transition something back to society and victims. What levels of phase? compulsion will the work schemes involve, and what will happen if some prisoners choose to refuse to work? Mr Clarke: The hon. Lady has listed almost all the measures to which we are giving the highest priority in Mr Clarke: Although some very good work is being trying to make prisons reforming institutions. We have done in prisons at the moment, and although there addressed work and drugs. Alcohol has not yet arisen, always have been one or two prisons in which a fair but mental illness is also a very serious issue. We are amount is happening, we will not be able to provide well advanced, in co-operation with the Department of work for all prisoners for quite a long time. Our aim is Health, in making plans for diversion services for those to get a much higher proportion into work, and for that who ought to be diverted out of the criminal justice reason employees in prison will be volunteers. That is system and given secure treatment for mental illness welcomed by private sector partners who like to have a elsewhere. Through the Department of Health, we are say in their work force, and who want a properly motivated also greatly improving the treatment facilities for those work force consisting of people who are trying to get who have to stay in prison. Mental health must be themselves into a better state to go straight when they tackled, especially if it is the real root of the criminality leave. of someone in prison—and, indeed, some such prisoners should not be in prison at all. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Lord Chancellor will know that 51% of those who enter the prison Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Does system have a drug dependency. What programmes to the Secretary of State have any plans to adopt the assist them will he have in place to enable them to Policy Exchange report recommendation that prisoners undertake this work? should be paid, but in turn should use their wages to pay for perks such as televisions, Freeview boxes and Mr Clarke: Actually, an even higher proportion than gym equipment, just as the rest of us in the outside that have abused drugs in the month or two before they worldhavetodo? arrive in prison. We are currently opening the first drug rehabilitation wings in prisons, and we hope to have Mr Clarke: Prisoners pay for some of those things drug-free wings, too. We are upping the effort to deal already, although the innovation we are putting in place with the drugs problem, which is a very large cause of is to make provision from the earnings of prisoners for the criminality of many of the people in our prisons. payment to victim services and to dependants outside. I Obviously, it should be given a much higher priority agree that we are not just giving prisoners pocket money. than it has sometimes had in the past. We are giving them money from which they should, perfectly properly, make payment for those things for Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): How many companies which they ought to be paying, including some reparation on the outside does the Secretary of State expect to be to their victims. linked to prisons in the next 12 months, so that those companies, such as Timpson and some utilities companies, Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): We have that already have workshops and bases in prisons can only to look at the Order Paper to see how keen the help people through the door and into jobs on the Secretary of State is to talk about work in prison. It is a outside? shame that the Government are not more interested in the benefits of paid work for those who have not Mr Clarke: There is growing interest, and I join the committed a crime. right hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to those companies, such as Timpson and one or two utilities companies, There are merely two paragraphs on women offenders which have been pioneering this initiative for quite a in his “Making prisons work” report, and there is no long time. Shortly before Christmas, a letter was sent to detail whatever on how his initiative will make a difference the newspapers that was signed by companies including to them. Is it not true that this Government are showing National Grid, Cisco and Marks & Spencer, and the no leadership on women in the justice system, and that CBI helped organise a day for us with outside companies. there is a very real danger that all progress will be lost? We have not put a target on the number of companies we want to be involved, but many companies want to Mr Clarke: It is my Parliamentary Private Secretary’s demonstrate their corporate social responsibility by enthusiasm for the policy of work in prisons that is taking part in this programme, and some will find that it exemplified, in part, by the Order Paper, together with is a very useful way of recruiting and training staff for the enthusiasm of all my hon. Friends who have asked their businesses. questions on this extremely valuable policy, which is an innovation compared with the neglect of this subject by Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): The the previous Government. Secretary of State will know that many inmates have We are giving a high priority to the needs of women mental health problems, including schizophrenia, which in prison, and we will continue to address the matter. can make work in prison and, importantly, the transition The previous Government were doing quite good work out difficult, especially if they do not have anyone to on women in prison, and we have not reversed anything; 123 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 124 indeed, we are building on the Corston report. On work Helen Jones: Does the Minister accept that moving in prisons, we certainly intend that female prisoners from a national system of provision for victims to one should have the same opportunities of work and training of local commissioning, as he is suggesting, will have a as men, and we are thinking of what special arrangements particular effect on vulnerable victims of crime, who we should make to ensure that such facilities are available often have to move home? What does he intend to do to and suitable for female prisoners. protect them in the new system he is introducing?

Mr Speaker: We are immensely grateful to the Secretary Mr Blunt: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her of State. I call Priti Patel. question, because she raises an issue of considerable importance to Victim Support, the principal organisation Victims of Crime providing victims services at the moment. Of course it is the Government’s view that these services would be 2. Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): What plans he has to better commissioned locally by the new police and improve support services for victims of crime. [99256] crime commissioners. We are consulting on our proposals, and I will take her views into account as we consider the 13. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): What steps responses to that consultation. he is taking to promote and protect the rights of victims in the justice system. [99269] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): May we have a positive drive from the Ministry of Justice to ensure 15. Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): What that, for as many victims as possible, both victim impact recent progress he has made on his proposed changes statements are completed and compensation orders are to support for victims of crime; and if he will make a lodged with the court, so that victims can get the redress statement. [99271] due to them?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Mr Blunt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his (Mr Crispin Blunt): On 30 January, in a statement to the question. He will know that we have strengthened the House, the Justice Secretary launched a three-month duty on those sentencing to consider a compensation consultation, “Getting it right for victims and witnesses”, order as the first point of departure when they come to on our far-reaching proposals to improve the support sentence people. I have now forgotten the first point— provided to victims and witnesses of crime. In addition, as was enthusiastically pre-announced Mr Hollobone: Victim impact statements. by my hon. Friend the Minister for Equalities when responding to the debate on international women’s day, I can now formally announce the next five new rape Mr Blunt: We want victims’ personal statements to be support centres to be developed by the Ministry of living documents that will play a full role, particularly in Justice and the voluntary sector. Over the next 12 months, advising the courts on the sentence following the the MOJ will provide nearly £600,000 in funding to consequences of the crime. develop new centres in mid-Wales, Northumbria, Leeds, Southend and Suffolk. Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Once police commissioners are in place, we could have 41 different Priti Patel: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and standards of victim support across the country. The I welcome the focus that the Government are putting on service that someone living, working and travelling victims. Will he join me in paying tribute to the excellent across the midlands receives could depend on one of charities that help victims of crime and their families, four or more areas, depending on where the crime is including Victim Support, the National Victims Association committed. Given the real concerns being raised by and Support After Murder and Manslaughter Abroad? victims groups about the potential mess that could arise Importantly, will he ensure that their representations on as a result of the Justice Secretary’s policies, will there the victims strategy will be fully considered by his be an individual—[Interruption.] Perhaps the Minister Department? would care to listen to the question before deciding to heckle from the Front Bench. Given the real concerns Mr Blunt: Yes. being raised by victims groups about the potential mess, which he should be aware of, will an individual or an Bill Esterson: Government cuts have hit women and organisation be charged with enforcing a minimum children harder than any other group. Fiona Weir, the standard that victims of crime can expect, regardless of chief executive of Gingerbread, has warned the Government geography—a newly appointed victims commissioner that, as a result of their changes to legal aid: perhaps? “The majority of domestic violence victims will not be able to provide the evidence required to access legal aid.” Mr Blunt: The hon. Gentleman has pointed out the Will the Minister ensure that cuts to legal aid are not problems that can come with enfranchising people at a another cut that hurts vulnerable children and women local level, but the Government believe in localism and more than other groups? it is our view that police and crime commissioners will have the best appreciation of the victim services that are Mr Blunt: Far be it for me to suggest that the hon. required in their local area. We look forward to the hon. Gentleman might be leading the House in the wrong Gentleman’s contribution to the consultation to see direction, but all victims of domestic violence will remain precisely what his view is. We have noticed that he is entitled to legal aid in respect of the domestic violence. against a localist approach, but this Government are not. 125 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 126

Broadcasting Court Proceedings to the police and agencies, and we are strengthening them through the latest legislation, the Police Reform 3. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): What and Social Responsibility Act 2011, to allow local authorities his proposed timetable is for legislation to allow to attach the power of seizure to their byelaws. We want broadcasting of selected court proceedings. [99257] to ensure that the new powers are used effectively.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Legal Aid (Benefit Cases) (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): We are planning to legislate as soon as parliamentary time allows to permit broadcasting 7. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What of selected court proceedings as part of our commitment discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for to increasing transparency in public services. Initially, Work and Pensions on the effect of his proposed we will allow broadcasting of judgments in the Court of changes to legal aid on the number of cases concerning Appeal, and we expect to extend this to sentencing benefits requiring early stage legal advice. [99262] remarks in the Crown court in due course. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Mr Buckland: I thank the Minister for that answer. (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): No such discussions have been Will he confirm that information will be the watchword, held, as the withdrawal of legal aid would have no not sensationalism, and that any conditions imposed impact on the number of cases concerning benefits will have that very much in mind? requiring early stage legal advice. The need for advice will be determined by decision making at the Department Mr Djanogly: Yes, I can assure my hon. Friend that for Work and Pensions, not the availability or otherwise we will not allow our courts to become places of public of legal aid. Of course, I recognise that many people theatre. Victims, witnesses, defendants and jurors will find that the type of general advice concerned is useful not be filmed. in resolving their problems, which is why the Government have announced additional funding for the not-for-profit Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): The Minister sector. just said something very important when he said that witnesses will not be filmed. Will he repeat that guarantee, Jessica Morden: Two people a day will become homeless because a court appearance is a very traumatic process over the next few months according to Shelter. Does it for a witness or victim? We need a red line that cannot not now make sense to invest more in homeless advice, be crossed not only by current Ministers but by Ministers not less? in the future, so that witnesses are protected.

Mr Djanogly: As I said, that is our position. We will Mr Djanogly: As I said, there is a difference between be consulting—and are—with a wide range of stakeholders, legal advice and general advice. We are investing in including broadcasters, victims groups and others, to general advice. ensure that appropriate operational arrangements and safeguards are in place. Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): Charnwood citizens advice bureau works very closely with my office Illegal Encampments (Public Parks) in Loughborough on benefits matters. Will the Minister, when he has such discussions, tell the Department for 5. Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): How many Work and Pensions that it needs to simplify the benefits prosecutions have been brought in respect of illegal system as that would be of great assistance in helping to encampments involving vehicles on public parks in the keep some cases away from the legal system and last 12 months. [99259] administrative tribunals in the first place?

The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Mr Djanogly: I agree with my hon. Friend and can Herbert): In 2010, there were 38 prosecutions for offences confirm that we are working very closely with the under sections 61, 62B and 77 of the Criminal Justice Department for Work and Pensions as part of its wider and Public Order Act 1994. Figures for 2011 are not yet welfare reform programme to improve the quality and available and the data do not show what proportion of effectiveness of initial decision taking. these prosecutions related to unauthorised encampments in public parks or whether vehicles were involved in Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): Lord Newton of Braintree, each case. who was the Secretary of State for Social Security in a Conservative Government in the 1980s and early 1990s—in Mike Weatherley: Will the Minister consider a review the days when the Conservative party won elections in of the powers of local authorities to prosecute trespassers its own right—said last week that 81% of all cases heard effectively and/or to charge occupants fees so that there in the first-tier tribunals relating to benefits are to do is an effective deterrent against uninvited encampments with disability benefits. In 2009-10 an appellant at the and so that some of the costs associated with unwelcome first-tier tribunal who received advice before going to activity can be recouped? the tribunal was 78% more likely to win their appeal than an unadvised appellant. The advice that citizens Nick Herbert: I appreciate my hon. Friend’s concern, advice bureaux, law centres and advice agencies give to which is widely shared, about illegal encampments, their clients is very important. These are not fat-cat whether they are on private land, thereby attempting to lawyers or litigious clients. Will the Government now subvert the public planning process, or ruining people’s accept the votes passed in the House of Lords over the enjoyment of public parks. A range of powers are available past week, which will not only save taxpayers’ money in 127 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 128 the medium to long term but will also avoid unnecessary Mr Watts: I thank the Secretary of State for his misery and suffering for some of the most vulnerable in answer, but does he agree with the Lord Chief Justice our society? that the Government’s Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill will have a negative effect Mr Djanogly: I have to say that the Government are on the justice system—yes or no? disappointed by the position taken in the Lords and we will return to the issue when the Bill comes back to the Mr Clarke: Well, we have just discovered that the Commons. We remain of the view that these cases are Labour party’s policy is to make substantial cuts in primarily about financial entitlement and as such do criminal legal aid. If the Government had made that not raise the fundamental issues involved in cases concerning proposal, that would no doubt have led to amazing liberty or safety. I can say to the right hon. Gentleman attacks on our disregard for the principle that a person that the user-friendly nature of the tribunal means that is innocent until proven guilty and to comments about appellants can generally present their case without legal the high risk of injustice in criminal trials. On the assistance. savings we are making in the cases to which the hon. Gentleman refers, the fact is that courts already deal Sadiq Khan: If that is the case, why is the success rate with litigants in person. Any judge or tribunal knows 78% higher for those who do receive advice before they that they have to pay particular attention to make sure go to appeal? We have said from the outset that we agree that people are not disadvantaged by not having legal that savings need to be made to the legal aid budget. If representation, but as the Under-Secretary of State for we were in government, we would be making cuts as Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon well, but our values and connections with ordinary (Mr Djanogly), has just explained, we have tried to people mean that our priorities would be very different. identify cases in which the informality of the tribunals Figures from the Ministry of Justice say that by the end means that applicants should not be at any particular of this Parliament, criminal legal aid provided largely disadvantage if they do not have a lawyer there in any by well-paid QCs, barristers and solicitors will be cut by event. 6%, whereas family legal aid will be cut by 29%, but social welfare legal aid, which is delivered by CABs, law Heidi Alexander: What assessment has the Secretary centres and small voluntary organisations, at which of State made of the additional cost that will be incurred some of the lowest-paid advisers and lawyers work, will by the legal system overall as a result of the increased be cut by 53%. numbers of litigants in person?

Mr Speaker: The question mark is about to come Mr Clarke: We are not persuaded that that will give upon us, is it not? rise to any increase in costs. Everybody accepts that cuts need to be made to legal aid. It is just that the Labour Sadiq Khan: Will the Minister explain why the cuts party is against every single cut that we suggest in are being made to the most vulnerable instead of to particular. This cut is perfectly straightforward and will areas where cuts can be made more fairly? not give rise to the difficulties that the hon. Lady points out—[Interruption.] I can only say to the Opposition Mr Djanogly: We simply are not doing what the right spokesman that he is obviously so discommoded by hon. Gentleman suggests. Social welfare law will still realising that he nearly gave out a policy on the subject receive £50 million in legal aid and we are redirecting a moment ago that he is getting rather carried away. We the money we spend on legal aid towards helping the have carefully selected cuts in legal aid concerning less most vulnerable. When it comes to advice on benefits, serious cases where cuts can be made without any risk people do not currently receive legal aid for representation. to justice whatever. Before people go to appeal they will still be able to receive advice for many such cases from a general advice practitioner such as their local CAB. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The president of the family division gave evidence to the Legal Aid (Litigants in Person) Justice Committee and said that he did not think that when a parent was disappointed not to have got legal 8. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): What aid for a contact or residence case, the parent should discussions he has had with the Lord Chief Justice on just say, “Well, never mind. Let’s forget about the child. the potential effect of his planned changes to legal aid I’m not going forward.” That person will go to court on the number of litigants in person. [99263] alone, taking twice as much time as a person represented. That will waste the judge’s and everybody else’s time, it 10. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): What will be hurtful for all concerned and it will damage the discussions he has had with the Lord Chief Justice on children as well. the potential effect of his planned changes to legal aid on the number of litigants in person. [99266] Mr Clarke: In family justice we are placing much more emphasis on mediation, which should be much The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice more comfortable for all the clients and will lead to a (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Substantial numbers of cases much easier and less traumatic resolution of many already involve litigants in person, so the courts already disputes. We are putting more money into mediation deal with this situation. The Government recognise that and more money into training for mediation. We should the changes to legal aid are likely to increase the number remember that the purpose of this public service is to of litigants in person. The evidence appears to show resolve disputes with the minimum of cost and time and that some cases featuring litigants in person are resolved to take all the emotion out, so far as is possible, of these more quickly, whereas some cases take longer. difficult family cases. Access to justice is access to the 129 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 130 most civilised way of resolving disputes. Access to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice justice does not depend only on how many lawyers the (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Legal Aid, Sentencing taxpayer pays for to go into adversarial litigation on and Punishment of Offenders Bill is designed to protect every such issue. victims of domestic violence. It protects funding for advice and representation in private family matters for Domestic Violence victims of domestic violence, as well as public funding in respect of protection orders for victims of domestic violence. We will also continue to waive financial eligibility 11. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): limits in these cases. What recent representations he has received on the treatment of victims of domestic violence in the Kerry McCarthy: I thank the Minister for that response, criminal justice system. [99267] but he will be aware that when the matter was debated in another place, serious concerns were raised that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice genuine victims of domestic violence would not receive (Mr Crispin Blunt): Improving the treatment of victims the legal aid support and ability to take action that they of domestic violence is a high priority for the Government, need, because of the legislation that the Government and I encourage organisations providing support to are bringing through. Organisations such as Refuge victims of domestic violence to give us their views in have expressed similar concerns. Will the Minister assure response to our consultation document, “Getting it us that all victims of domestic violence will receive the right for victims and witnesses.” help and support they need?

Mr Cunningham: Does the Minister agree that victims Mr Djanogly: Again, the Government were disappointed of domestic violence need safe refuge, an effective non- by the position taken by the Lords and will return to the privatised police response and access to free legal aid matter when the Bill comes back to the Commons. We advice? Are not his Government failing on all three? are very concerned about the victims of domestic violence. Indeed, it was because we are removing legal aid for Mr Blunt: No, they are not. Victims of domestic private family law that we realised there will be certain violence will continue to receive civil legal aid in order categories, such as domestic violence, that will not be to apply for protective injunctions, and we will continue suitable for mediation, which is why we are concentrating to waive the financial eligibility limits in those cases. on that area.

Public Order Convictions (Havering) Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): It is widely recognised that specialist domestic violence courts 12. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): How many have been very successful, but 23 of them are due to people in the London borough of Havering have been close. Will the Minister assure me that the expertise and convicted of offences in connection with the public multi-agency working that have been a feature of their disorder in August 2011. [99268] success will continue in this changed landscape?

Nick Herbert: Data available on 1 February show Mr Djanogly: It is important to point out that those that six people from Havering were convicted for their specialist domestic violence courts are closing not because part in the public disorder of 6 to 9 August last year. of what they do, but because the courts in which they are based are closing. I am pleased to say that those specialist courts will be moving to other courts, so no Andrew Rosindell: As the Minister knows, many of specialist domestic violence courts will be lost. our courts worked extra long hours last August to ensure that many of those who engaged in the riots were dealt with very quickly.What lessons have the Government learned from that to ensure that our courts are more Libel Laws efficient in future? 17. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): What Nick Herbert: We certainly were impressed by the recent progress he has made on his plans to reform libel speed with which the criminal justice system responded laws; and if he will make a statement. [99273] to the disorder, and we are grateful for the efforts of those working in it. Cases were dealt with in a matter of The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice hours and days, rather than the routine, which can be (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Government’s response to weeks and months. We seek to learn the lessons from the report of the Joint Committee on the Draft Defamation that and we will shortly come forward with proposals Bill was published on 29 February. It set out the for how we can ensure that we have a justice system that Government’s position on all the key issues. A substantive is swifter and more sure. defamation Bill will be introduced as soon as parliamentary time allows. Legal Aid (Victims of Domestic Violence) Dr Huppert: I thank the Secretary of State for that 14. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What answer and hope that there will be time for the Bill in recent assessment he has made of the potential effect of the Queen’s Speech. The Joint Committee recommended the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of that qualified privilege should be extended to Offenders Bill on victims of domestic violence. [99270] “peer-reviewed articles in scientific or academic journals.” 131 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 132

Does he agree that it is in the public interest that mine. As usual, I am sticking firmly to the policy of the scientists and other academics should be able to publish Government of whom I am a serving member. The bona fide research results without fear and that, unless reasons why we are reforming the Court were set out their publication is maliciously false, they should be clearly in the terms of reference of the commission protected from defamation actions? looking at the matter and in the Prime Minister’s speech to the Council of Europe, which I think coincide with Mr Clarke: One of the main reasons for publishing my own views. the draft Bill and looking at the law in that area was the fear that genuine academic and scientific debate was Mr Speaker: We are grateful to the Secretary of State, being stifled by the use of the defamation laws. We as always, for telling us what he really thinks. propose that peer-reviewed research should be protected and are now considering the draft of the final Bill in the light of the Joint Committee’s report. I will not anticipate Prison Provision (Charities) the Queen’s Speech, but if we can include a defamation Bill, one of its principal objectives will be to deal with 19. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): What his policy the very serious problem that the hon. Gentleman has is on prisons being run by a charity; and if he will make identified. a statement. [99275] European Court of Human Rights The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice 18. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Mr Crispin Blunt): Charities can apply to qualify as (LD): What his policy is on reform of the European tenders in prisons competitions, but it is unlikely that Court of Human Rights; and if he will make a they will have the financial strength to take the legal and commercial risks of running a prison. None is on statement. [99274] our current list of framework providers. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice We are actively encouraging the participation of (Mr Kenneth Clarke): When the Prime Minister addressed subcontractors, small and medium-size enterprises and the Council of Europe in January, he set out our priorities voluntary and community sector organisations within for reform and how we intend to achieve them. We want the supply chain of custodial services. Fifteen such reform to allow the Court better to fulfil the purpose for organisations attended the launch of the current round which it was intended: upholding human rights under of prisons competitions. the European convention on human rights and tackling serious violations of human rights across Europe. Guy Opperman: I thank the Minister for his answer. Clearly, there are very good examples of charities working Simon Hughes: I declare an interest, as I used to work within prisons, and I urge him to work with some of for the Council of Europe and trained there. The coalition them to see whether it is possible for them to take over a Government are absolutely right to prioritise reform of community-run prison that provides a local setting and the Court’s procedures, because the backlog of cases a local response to offenders’ needs. and the skills of the Court need to be dealt with, but does the Secretary of State agree that we must continue to say that it is vital for this country, and all European Mr Blunt: I am obviously delighted to recognise the countries, that we have a strong Court which can ensure valuable work of charities and of the voluntary sector that the rights of all European citizens are upheld, and in supporting the rehabilitation of offenders. It is the upheld outside their own countries as well as within? area of our society in which, if we can engage the voluntary sector in such work, we will find that there is Mr Clarke: The convention applies, and the jurisdiction significant extra capacity for people who want to do the of the Court extends, to 47 member states, where we right thing to help some of the most damaged and want to entrench the principles of liberal democracy, damaging people in society to go straight. We have to and it is in all our interests that we do so. The aim of ensure that those links work and that people can do the our proposed reforms is to strengthen the Court and work. As I have said, there will be concerns about enable it to concentrate on the most serious cases requiring whether a charity has the financial resources to underwrite adjudication at international level. At the moment the the running of a prison, given the commercial and other Court is not functioning well because it has 150,000 risks concerned, but I welcome the general tenor of my cases in arrears, it take years to get a hearing and it has hon. Friend’s remarks. to deal with cases that are trivial, repetitive or have been properly dealt with at national level. Community Service Sentences Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I seem to remember promising the electorate that we would bring 20. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): in a Bill of Rights that would enable us to disregard What his policy is on the use of community service some of the more barmy decisions of the European sentences; and if he will make a statement. [99276] Court of Human Rights. Would the Secretary of State like to update us on our progress towards fulfilling that The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick important commitment? Herbert): It is for the court to determine whether an offence is serious enough to warrant the imposition of a Mr Clarke: Different Conservative candidates put community sentence. When a community sentence is forward the campaign in different terms at the last imposed, we want to ensure that it is effective in stopping election, and not for the first time, as you will know offending behaviour escalating to the point at which from your experience, Mr Speaker, and as I do from prison becomes the only option. 133 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 134

Diana Johnson: Hull Crown court recently found Lee Mr Speaker: Order. May I just very gently say to the Bates guilty of illegal moneylending, or loan sharking Secretary of State that he might have intended to group as most people call it. At least 17 victims and their it but that, I am afraid, he neglected to do so? I know families suffered from his exploitation, and he got 180 that the House will, however, enjoy hearing once again hours’ community service for pleading guilty, but surely his mellifluous tones. such criminals should go to prison, should they not? Mr Clarke: The courts already deal with litigants in person, and they are very used to dealing with that Nick Herbert: I cannot comment on that particular situation. We accept that the legal aid changes currently case, but in general we certainly believe that serious before the House of Lords will increase the number of offenders—those offenders who have committed repeat litigants in person, but the evidence on the issue is very offences—should be sent to prison, and that option mixed, indicating that some cases are dealt with more remains for the courts. We believe also, however, that quickly and others take longer. In fact, many such cases community sentences, when they are imposed, should do not require legal representation at all. be more rigorous and have a more punitive element, so that we can stop the escalation of offending which Mr Jones: The Justice Secretary is clear that the results in a custodial sentence. It is that escalation that number of litigants representing themselves will increase. we seek to avoid. In drawing up his cuts in legal aid, did his Department make any assessment of increased costs, given that the Lord Chief Justice is concerned that courts could be Metal Theft swamped and that the cost to the taxpayer could be higher as a result of those cuts? 21. Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): What Mr Clarke: We see no evidence at all that this would assessment he has made of the deterrent effect of sentencing give rise to increased costs. It is extremely difficult to on the incidence of metal theft. [99277] anticipate precisely the effect of there being more litigants in person because the evidence is so mixed. We are The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice concentrating, particularly in the family division, on (Mr Crispin Blunt): We have not concluded a specific dealing with more cases by way of mediation. Adversarial study on the deterrent effect of sentencing on the incidence litigation is not always the best way of resolving problems; of metal theft, but on Report in the other place we will there are many better alternative ways of resolving table amendments to the Legal Aid, Punishment and disputes in suitable cases. We are putting more money Sentencing of Offenders Bill which would see unlimited into mediation and less into taxpayers paying for lawyers. fines for the more serious metal-dealing offences and raise the maximum penalty for more minor offences Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): While I from level 1 to level 3. We also propose to prohibit cash would like to argue that my right hon. and learned payments for scrap metal. Friend owes a duty of care to our joint profession, does not experience tell us that people are not necessarily Mr Spencer: I hope that the Minister is aware of the happiest when in the hands of lawyers? intensive campaign being run by Nottinghamshire trading standards and Nottinghamshire police to clamp down Mr Clarke: I am sure that they are very happy when on metal theft, but can he reassure the House that he being advised by my hon. Friend or by me, but I have will take steps to ensure that the sentencing of those encountered examples of dissatisfaction in other cases. who deal in stolen metal is severe enough to put them Most people dread a dispute in which they are involved off and reduce the market? having to go to court through the full legal process. Most disputes are settled by negotiation, but if the parties cannot do that, mediation is a very good way of resolving Mr Blunt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the them, particularly in emotional family disputes. The advice on Nottinghamshire. I confess that I was not whole justice system should be seen as a public service. aware of that work, although I am aware of very good We are seeking to resolve disputes in the quickest possible practice in the north-east, for example, and elsewhere in way at the least possible cost to the parties involved. It is the country. But, of course, we do not propose those too often thought that access to justice means that the changes to the sentencing regime for that offence except taxpayer has to keep paying for more and more lawyers to send a very clear message that it is an offence that can to take part in longer and longer litigation. That is not do very serious damage indeed. always the best way of resolving many things. Broadcasting Court Proceedings Legal Aid (Litigants in Person) 23. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): When he plans to bring forward legislative proposals to allow television 22. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): What recording and broadcasting of court proceedings. discussions he has had with the Lord Chief Justice on [99279] the potential effect of his planned changes to legal aid on the number of litigants in person. [99278] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): As soon as parliamentary The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice time allows, the Government plan to legislate to remove (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I thought that I had already the ban on cameras in courts. We are working closely answered this question, which was grouped with Question with the Lord Chief Justice, the judiciary and the 10. I said that a substantial number of cases already— broadcasters on achieving this. 135 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 136

Henry Smith: I very much support the broadcasting justice system. The previous Administration began the of court proceedings because of the transparency that it process that led to the contract being awarded to ALS. will bring, but will my hon. Friend confirm whether a It is not a small company, because it is now backed by fee will be charged to broadcasters for the use of the Capita. There was a pilot over six to eight weeks in the material so that the cost does not fall on to the taxpayer? north-west, which gave no indication of the problems. Within two weeks of the national roll-out, when the Mr Djanogly: I can assure my hon. Friend that the problems became clear, the Ministry of Justice procurement negotiations that are being conducted with broadcasters people were across the problems at ALS and measures are taking place on the basis that they will be paying for were put in place to put right the problems. Some of the the service. problems, strangely enough, came from the interpreters who, on finding that under the new payment regime Topical Questions they could no longer earn six-figure salaries, as they could under the previous Administration, did not T1. [99280] Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental co-operate. They are now doing so. responsibilities. Mr Slaughter: In his staggering complacency, the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Minister fails to grapple with the fact that every day, (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Today is the fifth anniversary of when ALS interpreters fail to show up, defendants are the Corston report, which called for radical change in being remanded in custody or released with no consideration the way that women are treated throughout the criminal of the evidence, trials are collapsing or being postponed, justice system. I am sure that the hon. Member for and the potential for miscarriages of justice is huge, as Darlington (Mrs Chapman) will be pleased to hear me is the loss of public money, which dwarfs the alleged say that there have been real improvements in the five savings. Will he suspend the contract and order an years since the report, including significant investment immediate investigation into how this disaster happened in women’s community centres to address the underlying on his watch? causes of women’s offending, such as drug and alcohol addiction, mental health issues, and often long histories Mr Blunt: I would be slightly more inclined to take of abuse. We are fully committed to addressing women’s lessons from the hon. Gentleman if he was even vaguely offending, for their own good and that of the public. on the money. Within two weeks of the contract going The National Offender Management Service has committed nationwide, the Ministry of Justice was right across the to an additional £3.5 million each year to continue to problems and put in place an action plan to address fund 30 women’s community services. Women offenders them. The idea that we are not interested in the matter, will also be included in two payment-by-results pilot when we are making £18 million of savings in the areas to link productive work to reducing reoffending. provision of interpreters under a process that was commenced under the previous Administration and Mr Ellwood: In these tough economic times, more after interpreters had been grossly overpaid and had people are borrowing money, getting into debt and, taken advantage of the system that was in place under sadly, having to deal with the bailiffs, who are, on that Administration, is beyond belief. occasion, aggressive and intrusive. What is being done to ensure that creditors and debtors are aware of their T5. [99284] Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): rights and responsibilities? The Secretary of State will be aware that the Prime Minister said on 25 January of the European Court of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Human Rights that, (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Government are clear “we are hoping to get consensus on strengthening subsidiarity—the that aggressive bailiff activity is unacceptable, and we principle that where possible, final decisions should be made are committed to bringing forward effective proposals nationally.” that protect the public and ensure that such action is Does the Secretary of State agree with me that subsidiarity proportionate. We have made a start by publishing our should start and end with votes for prisoners in this updated national standards for enforcement agents, and country? we have followed that up with a consultation paper issued on 17 February on a new, legally binding regulatory Mr Kenneth Clarke: The statement that my hon. regime for bailiffs. Friend just read out is the basis on which we are Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Before negotiating with the other members of the Council of the contract with Applied Language Solutions for court Europe on reform of the Court in Strasbourg, which interpreting started this year, the Minister was warned everybody agrees needs reform urgently. The principle that it would fail by almost every qualified interpreter, of subsidiarity is very important. We are not negotiating by Labour Members, by Back Benchers of all parties in on existing judgments on any subject. Obviously, we are a debate here last November, by the Lord Chancellor’s trying to comply with the obligations of the European own constituents at his surgery—so they tell me—and convention on human rights in a more effective manner, even by ALS itself. The contract has failed, so why did which I think the courts in this country usually do in he decide to risk £300 million of public funds with an their judgments. untried, small-time company? Prisoner voting is an entirely separate matter, which the House has already considered. The latest stage is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice that the Attorney-General has been making representations (Mr Crispin Blunt): Even in the spendthrift days of the on behalf of the British Government in an Italian case previous Administration, it was noticed that there was on which we are awaiting a judgment. The issue is something wrong with the cost of interpreters in the therefore still under legal review. 137 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 138

T2. [99281] Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Will The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick the Justice Secretary say when decisions on the Green Herbert): We were concerned that there was a belief Paper on justice and security are likely to be taken? that it was not possible to name offenders on the run for Will he confirm that the devolved Administrations will reasons of, for instance, data protection or human be fully consulted on those decisions, particularly in rights. When offenders are unlawfully at large, it must respect of aspects that will affect devolved functions? make sense for there to be a presumption that they can be named by the authorities. The Government will take Mr Clarke: We will come forward with a Bill as soon steps to ensure that that is made clear and that there will as parliamentary time arises. We will, of course, respond be such naming unless there are specific operational to the consultation before that. We are liaising and reasons why that would not make sense. consulting closely with the devolved Administrations, because there will be implications for them. We will T4. [99283] Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): The make progress in the fairly near future. Office for Judicial Complaints has been investigating the poor performance of the Teesside coroner since August but, seven months on, we still have no indication T7. [99286] David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): There of when the investigation will conclude. Has the Minister are considerable concerns about the proposals for set a finish date for the investigation? When will matters elements of court hearings to be heard in private. Will improve? Has he merely kicked the subject into the long the Secretary of State reassure the House that one of grass? the reasons for that solution is that it will safeguard national security by protecting information that comes from our foreign allies? Mr Djanogly: I can assure you, Mr Speaker, that we have not kicked the matter into the long grass. It is a judicial investigation and it must take its course. Mr Clarke: Yes, I can. The aim is to combine that purpose with getting a proper judicial decision on disputed cases, in which allegations or claims are made or in T10. [99289] George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Last which matters have to be inquired into, that is better year, the Government found it necessary to close several than the conclusions that we get currently. There is no smaller courts because of low utilisation rates, particularly system in the world in which spies give evidence in open in rural areas such as Norfolk. Will the Minister update court, naming their sources, describing their techniques the House on the effect of those closures on court and giving the full facts that the intelligence service has efficiency in the remaining courts? at its command to the public at large. At the moment, all that happens when such evidence is relevant is that it Mr Djanogly: The efficiency of the courts is being is not given and no satisfactory conclusion is ever improved because of the closures. We have now closed reached. We have addressed that in the Green Paper 130 of the 142 that were on the closure list. In all cases, that we have published. the closures have gone very well and magistrates have all transferred to local, surrounding courts. Mr Speaker: Order. I ask the Secretary of State to face the House. T6. [99285] Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): It is clear that the ALS contract is a disaster, but I would like to question the Secretary of State and Ministers about T3. [99282] Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): the impact on the deaf community. The resulting poor The Lord Chancellor will know that the ALS employment conditions have forced British sign language interpreters’ contractor has been an unmitigated interpreters into other work, contributing to a trend of disaster, and I can provide specific examples of cases in recruiting BSL interpreters who may not be fully qualified, my constituency. If it is about saving money, will he tell which may lead to a miscarriage of justice. What safeguards us how many hearings have had to be adjourned or are in place to ensure that deaf people—a protected postponed due to the fiasco? group with protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010—and their officially recognised language, BSL, Mr Blunt: There will be a full presentation of all the are afforded proper regard, enabling them to have fair statistics and evidence relevant to the matter. I assure and proper access to justice? the hon. Gentleman that matters are in hand and that ALS’s performance is improving significantly. Particular Mr Blunt: The hon. Lady is absolutely right, and I problems remain with two nationality groups of interpreters, undertake to look into any actions that are happening who are causing difficulties, but plans are in hand for with regard to deaf people. However, there are not them, too. [Interruption.] I do not wish to name them necessarily comparisons and precise parallels to be drawn at the moment. The matter was in hand within two between ordinary language interpreters and translators weeks of the system’s going live. There are weekly for the deaf. I will consider her points and come back to reports to me and daily management oversight from the her. Ministry of Justice. The matter is improving. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): With T8. [99287] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Until now, a senior CIA official stating that there has been no drop prisoners who were on the run often managed to stay on in the intelligence exchange between the US and the the run because the authorities were unable to name UK, with the current inquest system providing greater them. That is an obvious barrier to their recapture, so certainty than the proposed alternative that families will the Minister outline his plans for improving that will find out why their loved ones died, and with closed state of affairs? material proceedings introducing, according to Lord Kerr, 139 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 140 untested evidence into court, will the Secretary of State closing things off from the public. The fact is that explain why we need the Green Paper on justice and military families, like everybody else, understand that security? military intelligence officers, for example, cannot always give full evidence in open hearing about all their activities. Mr Kenneth Clarke: When we share intelligence with However, the particular difficulties of inquests and other friendly countries, we do so on the basis that we other hearings are addressed in the Green Paper on will not disclose that intelligence to the outside world. which we are now consulting. We must strike the right The moment doubt is aroused about whether or not balance in the very rare cases in which intelligence that intelligence remains secure once it is given to the British puts national security and individual safety at risk is intelligence community, there is a damaging effect on involved. One part of that balance is the undoubted the willingness of other intelligence communities to needs of open justice, which should be done wherever it share information with us. I have no control over the is remotely possible. American intelligence service or any other, and we have to respond to reality in this extremely difficult world. As Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): This splendid I have already said, in the case of inquests or civil courts Secretary of State has always been open to novel ideas and sensitive material that cannot be given in public, to solve important problems. Has he looked at my Bill the alternative is that the evidence is not given at all, that would allow us to withdraw temporarily from the and everybody remains dissatisfied by the outcome. European Court of Human Rights to deport terrorists? Does he think it might have some merit? Several hon. Members rose— Mr Clarke: I am glad to know that my hon. Friend Mr Speaker: Order. It is always a pleasure to hear the is, as ever, on the side of moderation—he suggests Secretary of State, but on account of the level of not necessarily leaving or remaining, but temporarily demand, I am afraid that he has to be subject to withdrawing, which is obviously in his opinion the rationing. middle path. I am awaiting the advice of the independent commission that we have appointed, which I have not T9. [99288] Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I interfered with at all, and which is seeking to get to am sure I will not be the only Member of the House to some conclusions. I am also awaiting the results of have been dismayed by the Secretary of State’s last negotiations with 47 other countries that are signatories answer. Yet again the Government seem to think they to the European convention on human rights. know better than the Royal British Legion and service personnel on this matter. Service families want justice Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does done in the open for loved ones killed in action. Why the Justice Secretary agree that, no matter how much will he not listen to their rejection of the secret inquests sympathy we have for the personal suffering of our he has proposed in the justice and security Green fellow men and women, only Parliament can change the Paper, or will he answer again that the Government law of murder and permit someone to take their own know best? life by their own hand or to be assisted in doing so by doctors or others? Mr Clarke: I am sorry that the British Legion seems to be getting carried away with another campaign, this Mr Clarke: That is rather relevant to a case that is time based on “secret justice” conspiracy theories that currently being heard and I do not think I can possibly are being put around. I am not normally attacked by comment on it. I await with interest the judgment, as people for, or accused of having, an ill-regard for the the case has been allowed to be taken to the High Court principles of justice or for my reactionary views on of Justice. 141 13 MARCH 2012 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria) 142

Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria) the threat to UK nationals. Where terrorists are involved in kidnapping, payment of ransoms is illegal under UK law. 3.33 pm During Chris and Franco’s captivity the Government’s The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): emergency committee, Cobra, met regularly to review With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement progress and discuss steps to secure their safe release. about the attempted rescue of Chris McManus and his During their captivity the kidnappers made threats, colleague, the Italian national Franco Lamolinara, who through a video and by direct contact with Chris’s were, very sadly, killed by their kidnappers during the family, that they intended to kill Chris and Franco, but operation on Thursday 8 March. I will give the House at no time during their captivity did the kidnappers as much information as I can on the background, the make any coherent demands. events leading up to the rescue attempt and the operation Throughout the 10 months of Chris and Franco’s itself. However, the House will understand that I will captivity, we worked very closely with the Nigerian not be able to say anything that might compromise Government to track down their kidnappers and identify intelligence sources or jeopardise future operations. I the location where they were being held. The close should also inform the House that there will be a working over that period included preparation for the coroner’s inquest into the cause of death of Christopher possibility of a hostage rescue. The Prime Minister McManus, and my statement today must not in any discussed the case with President Jonathan during his way prejudice the course of the coroner’s inquiries. visit to Nigeria in July 2011, and as a result agreed a But first, Mr Speaker, I am sure the whole House package of UK support for Nigeria’s counter-terrorism would wish to join me in expressing utter condemnation efforts. As part of that package, a sustained operation of the murder of these two innocent people, and in was conducted to identify members of the group responsible offering my heartfelt condolences to the families of for the kidnapping. Earlier last week a number of them both Christopher McManus and Franco Lamolinara. were apprehended, and during debriefing late on 7 March, Chris McManus and his colleague were kidnapped credible intelligence was obtained identifying the probable by armed men from Birnin Kebbi, in north-west Nigeria, location of the hostages at a house or compound in on the night of 12 May 2011. In the early days of the Sokoto, northern Nigeria. kidnap, it was not clear who had taken them or what The Foreign Secretary briefed the Prime Minister their motives were, but as the days passed and no that evening, and at his request chaired a meeting of demands were received, and as the tempo of terrorist Cobra at 8.15 on the morning of 8 March to assess the activity in Nigeria increased, we concluded that, unlike situation. Following that meeting, the Prime Minister other kidnap cases in Nigeria, this was not a straightforward received a full briefing. In the hour or so that followed, criminal kidnap, and that Chris and Franco had most the location was confirmed, although we still did not probably been abducted by terrorist extremists linked to know if the kidnappers and their victims were inside. Boko Haram and calling themselves AQ in Nigeria. On the ground, the Nigerian army had secured a cordon Boko Haram was founded in the early 2000s. From some distance around the property and an assault group, 2010, the group launched an increasingly aggressive including UK support, was in place. campaign of violent attacks. The House will be aware The assessment on the ground was that there was a of the appalling toll that the group has inflicted on significant possibility that the kidnappers, if present, Nigeria over the past year or so—through attacks against were already aware that their security had been churches on Christmas day 2010, with over 30 deaths, compromised, and if not, that the level of military to the co-ordinated attacks in Kano on 20 January 2011 activity in the town meant that there was a real risk of that resulted in nearly 200 deaths. Boko Haram has them developing that awareness. The military judgment murdered hundreds of Nigerians over the past two was that the hostages were facing an imminent and years. Attacks have also been launched against international escalating threat and that, although an immediate rescue targets. In an attack on the UN building in Abuja on attempt would inevitably involve risk, it represented the 26 August 2010, 23 people were killed. Sadly, the violence best chance of securing the release of Chris and Franco continues. Attacks against a church in Jos and police alive. The Prime Minister was briefed by military and stations in Kano and Maiduguri over the weekend have national security advisers, and gave his authorisation added to the terrible toll. for an operation to release the hostages to go ahead Following the kidnap, cross-Government crisis with UK support. As soon as possible afterwards, our management teams were established in our high commission ambassador in Rome informed the Italian authorities in Abuja and in London. They began work to identify that an operation was getting under way. who had taken Chris and Franco, and to locate them. The Nigerian security forces, with UK support, launched The Nigerian Government have supported our efforts the assault on the compound last Thursday at 10.58 am throughout and worked closely with us. We also worked London time. UK personnel encountered and killed closely with the Italian Government throughout the one armed kidnapper almost immediately on entering period through intelligence and diplomatic channels in the compound. As the assault teams moved into the order to keep them abreast of developments and informed compound, UK personnel found the bodies of Chris of our efforts. and Franco, already dead, in a room at the rear of the From the outset of the effort to find Chris and compound. Early indications are clear that both men Franco, our objectives were clear and focused: to secure were murdered by their captors with automatic gunfire their safe release while continuing the long-standing before they could be rescued. Three further guards of policy of successive British Governments not to make the hostages were killed by Nigerian forces during an concessions to hostage takers or to pay ransoms to operation that lasted approximately an hour and a half terrorists. To do otherwise would only serve to increase in total. None were taken alive. 143 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria)13 MARCH 2012 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria) 144

Following the operation the Prime Minister called statement, the Defence Secretary gave little detail of the the McManus family to tell them how sorry he was that interaction with the Italian Government. Will he detail we had not been able to bring Chris home safely. He also his contacts with the Italian Government in advance of spoke to Prime Minister Monti to pass on his condolences, the operation? More widely, were assurances given to and to President Jonathan to express his thanks for the Italian Government that they would have the right Nigerian support. This was a difficult operation that it to sanction any rescue attempt of one of their citizens? was judged had to be carried out at speed, in view of the On the specifics of the rescue operation, the Ministry risk to the lives of Chris and Franco. One Nigerian of Defence has said that this was a Nigerian-led operation soldier was wounded in the rescue attempt. I wish him a with the UK Special Boat Service in support. Will the speedy recovery from his injuries, and I want to express Secretary of State share with the House as much our gratitude again to the members of the Nigerian information as he can about the rules of engagement forces, along with our UK personnel, who risked their that were agreed with the Nigerian authorities, bearing lives in the attempt to rescue Chris and Franco. in mind his earlier comments about the need to protect The deaths of Chris McManus and Franco Lamolinara intelligence? were a terrible tragedy. But let us be clear that the responsibility for their deaths lies squarely with the There have been various separate reports of ransoms people who kidnapped them, held them, threatened being paid in full or in part to the hostage takers. The them and then murdered them in cold blood. Terrorism UK Government have a clear policy on ransom payments, and kidnapping can never be justified. Many of the as the Secretary of State has reminded us today. The group responsible for the kidnapping and murder of reports claim that approximately £1 million was paid to Chris and Franco, including its senior leaders, are either the captors as a down payment on a potential £5 million dead or have been detained—an important achievement ransom. I would like to give the Secretary of State the in reducing the threat of future kidnapping. However, opportunity to confirm that no British official or Minister violent extremist Islamist groups remain active in Nigeria, had prior knowledge of, or agreed to, any payment and so long as they do, we will work with the Nigerians being made by a third party or foreign Government for and other allies to fight the scourge of terrorism wherever the release of a British national. it manifests itself. Turning to the wider context, Nigeria is one of the countries not mentioned in the Government’s strategic 3.42 pm defence and security review, but it is a nation that will require our collective attention. It is west Africa’s Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): I thank predominant power, Africa’s most populous country the Secretary of State for his statement, a copy of which and the world’s 11th largest producer of oil. The UK was handed to me as he started speaking, as he knows. has a positive diplomatic relationship with Nigeria, and Our thoughts are rightly with the families and friends of a vibrant diaspora community that enriches our country. Mr McManus and Mr Lamolinara. Both were killed in However, Nigeria is a country in which roughly two cold blood, and those responsible for their abduction thirds of the people live on less than £1 a day, and in and murder, as well as those who provide support for which one in five children die in infancy before the age them, must be pursued. of five and 12 million are not in school. Those are the The Defence Secretary rightly paid tribute to the vital conditions in which radicalisation can fester. role that British special forces play around the world, The hostage takers, Boko Haram, have been referred and the entire country agrees with that sentiment. They to as the Nigerian Taliban and are accused by the head are increasingly central to counter-terrorism operations. of Nigerian armed forces of having ties to al-Qaeda in We rely on their expertise, discretion and courage. It is the Islamic Maghreb. The group is particularly active right, therefore, that we maintain the sovereign operational in Saharan states and was responsible for the bombing autonomy of our special forces in future. In that light, of the UN headquarters. The US embassy recently and in the light of everything we know about the operation, warned staff about its activity, and the head of US we believe that the Government took the right course of military’s Africa command has said that Boko Haram action in seeking to rescue two innocent captives. might be expanding because of an alliance with al-Qaeda. It is, however, concerning that the Italian President—who What assessment have the UK Government made about is, by general agreement, a measured man—called Britain’s the links between Boko Haram and al-Qaeda? It has action “inexplicable”, while Prime Minister Monti has been reported that the National Security Committee asked the UK Government for a “detailed reconstruction discussed the hostage crisis on 20 separate occasions. If of the events”, and that the Italian Government have that is the case, it is a welcome reflection of just how demanded the “utmost clarity”. Such discord suits no fiercely the UK Government focused on this crisis, but one other than our enemies. In the interests of that will the Secretary of State share with the House his clarity, can the Secretary of State offer further details of assessment of the continuing threat to British nationals the contacts with the Italian Government? The Prime and interests in Nigeria and the wider region? Minister’s spokesman stated on 9 March: I look forward to hearing the Secretary of State’s “We contacted the Italians yesterday as the operation was getting under way,” response. This tragedy is another painful reminder that the UK must retain the ability to act across the globe. It while the Foreign Secretary has said that the Government is also a reflection of the vindictiveness of our opponents were and the valour of our forces. My final request today is “constrained how much we were able to consult others”. to ask the Defence Secretary to convey the appreciation Downing street also stated that a possible rescue attempt of Parliament as a whole to the commanders of the had been raised with the Italian Government beforehand Special Boat Service for their remarkable efforts and and no objections were raised. In what was a substantial bravery. 145 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria)13 MARCH 2012 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria) 146

Mr Hammond: First, may I apologise to the right The linkages between the organisations are somewhat hon. Gentleman for what turned out to be the non-delivery tenuous and not well understood by us, but it is absolutely of my statement prior to my standing up to deliver it? I clear that we should be concerned about this development. knew that he was going to get it late, but I did not know To answer the right hon. Gentleman’s other questions, that it was not going to arrive at all. I apologise to him Cobra—not the National Security Council—met 33 times for that. I am also extremely grateful to him for his during the period of captivity to discuss this particular support. He and most of his colleagues on the Front kidnapping. As for the threat to UK nationals, of Bench have been in government, and they understand course there is a threat to them and others from the the difficulty involved in making these fine judgments ongoing extremist terrorist activity in northern Nigeria. and decisions, often under extreme time pressure constraints. I would say this to the right hon. Gentleman, however. The right hon. Gentleman asked about the information While the action taken last Thursday did not, sadly, that had been given to the Italians, and about the nature have the outcome we all hoped for in the safe return of of the contact with them. He will understand that the Chris and Franco, it has undoubtedly reduced the threat contact was not conducted by me; it was conducted to UK nationals by demonstrating to would-be kidnappers through the Foreign Office. Throughout the process, a that the UK is willing and able to react robustly when regular dialogue was maintained between the security our nationals are put at risk. services and their Italian counterparts, on a day-to-day, business-as-usual basis. Last Thursday morning, Her Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): It is Majesty’s ambassador in Rome visited the Italian authorities the case, is it not, that the difference between success as soon as he was able to do so after the completion of and failure in these operations is often a very narrow the Cobra meeting to pass to the Italians the information one? While it is the Government’s responsibility to about the operation that was getting under way. ensure that those who may be asked to carry out such operations are properly trained and equipped, it is The right hon. Gentleman asked whether we had necessarily the case that when Government authority is agreed that the Italians would essentially have a power sought for these operations, the Government have to of veto over such an operation. I find that question rely on the advice, judgment and experience of those on slightly strange, in view of his earlier remarks about the the ground. importance of retaining the sovereign capability of our forces. I have to tell him that we did not agree that the Mr Hammond: My right hon. and learned Friend is Italians would have any power of veto over a rescue absolutely right. Throughout the critical period last operation involving a British citizen, but of course we week, we were being advised by UK personnel on the consulted them throughout the 10-month period. They ground and UK senior military personnel here in London. were well aware of the direction in which the operation The Prime Minister quite rightly challenged and questioned was moving. the advice he was given, but was of course strongly The right hon. Gentleman asked about the rules of guided by the professional judgments. engagement. Of course this was a Nigerian-led operation on Nigerian soil; the area was secured by Nigerian Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Having, like my forces, and was under the overall command of a Nigerian right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East commander. Appropriate arrangements had been agreed (Mr Ainsworth), had to make similar difficult and with the Nigerian authorities to ensure that any UK urgent decisions in such dire circumstances—sometimes personnel involved in lethal activity would be protected with equally unhappy consequences—may I fully endorse from any redress under Nigerian law. I am happy to be the decisions that the Foreign Secretary and the Prime able to reassure the right hon. Gentleman on that front. Minister had to make in this situation? May I just press I, too, have read the reports of ransom payments, to the right hon. Gentleman a little more on the position which the right hon. Gentleman referred. The UK’s of President Giorgio Napolitano? I happen to know policy is clear: we do not pay ransoms to terrorists; no him, and have done since he was the interior Minister UK officials or Ministers were involved in any discussions when I was Home Secretary 15 years ago. He is about the payment of ransoms to terrorists; and we are extraordinarily cautious and measured in his language. not aware of any ransom having been paid or indeed It is plain that he felt blind-sided. Will the Foreign any ransom having been demanded. Secretary say what high-level efforts are being made to assuage his concerns at this stage? The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the importance of Nigeria as a country. When the defence engagement Mr Hammond: I am sure that the Foreign Secretary strategy is published—it will not be too far in the future could, but as he is not here, I will have a go instead. I —he will see that Nigeria plays a very prominent part in assure the right hon. Gentleman that there have been that document and in the agenda going forward. We extensive contacts with the Italian Government and have a strong relationship with Nigeria—a strong military authorities since the expressions of unhappiness that we to military relationship—and we provide ongoing counter- heard on Thursday and Friday, and I think it fair to say terrorism support to the Nigerians; and we have one of that the situation has been clarified to the satisfaction the largest bilateral aid programmes with Nigeria, precisely of all parties. to address the underlying causes of discontent in the poverty to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): In these very difficult The right hon. Gentleman is, of course, right to be operations, surprise is vital. I have not yet seen the concerned about Boko Haram and its links to al-Qaeda. statement because it has not been distributed, but I Our understanding is that it is not directly linked to AQ believe that the operation began at 10.58 am, and that in the Islamic Maghreb, but that factions of Boko Haram the area was secured by the Nigerian army. I do not have started to refer to themselves as AQ in Nigeria. know whether my right hon. Friend is allowed to answer 147 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria)13 MARCH 2012 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria) 148 this question, but was the timing of the operation release—in conjunction with the Foreign Office, which was precipitated by the fact that security had been breached extremely helpful—not just in the most recent period, and we were forced to go in? Will he confirm that the but throughout nine or 10 nerve-racking months. timing was not of our choice? I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, but may I ask him to say a little more about the exact nature Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend is right. The judgment of the intelligence that was collected in the raid on Boko was that, first because of the apprehension of members Haram in Kaduna, which indicated that precipitate of the group earlier in the week and secondly because of action was necessary to save the hostages’ lives? May I the presence of significant numbers of Nigerian troops also ask why such expressly urgent action was needed not very far from the compound in question, it would that the Italian Government could not be consulted before be taking too great a risk to defer the operation. The a final decision was made, because the life of one of military judgment was that despite the risks involved, their citizens, as well as of Chris McManus, was at risk? there was a greater chance of rescuing the hostages alive by acting immediately. Mr Hammond: First, may I join the right hon. Gentleman Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): in paying tribute to the McManus family? I attended a These are always the most difficult decisions to take. significant number of the Cobra meetings that have Our condolences must go to the families of the two been held on this subject since October last year, and men, and our profound thanks must go to our special whenever there were reported contacts with the family, forces, who acquire and are then prepared to use skill comment was made on how engaged they had been with and bravery to carry out operations of this kind. We the process and how focused they were on getting the must be enormously grateful to them for doing so. result we all wanted. They were under tremendous May I return to the issue of the unfortunate discord pressure, but they conducted themselves with remarkable between us and the Italian Government? Is the Secretary dignity and co-operated very well with the authorities of State able or prepared to say anything that would throughout the process. explain some of the complexities that would arise from The right hon. Gentleman will understand that I a nation’s attempts to embed another in the kind of cannot go into the details of the intelligence that was decisions that would be necessary to keep them completely available, but what he has to understand is that there and absolutely as one in such circumstances? was a fast-evolving situation. On Tuesday evening, some people were arrested. During the course of their debriefing Mr Hammond: I think it fair to say that throughout on Wednesday, several of them provided information the long months of captivity there were very good and that gave us a credible fix on where the hostages might full discussions and exchanges of views with the Italians, be being held. Later, additional intelligence was available and that they understood very clearly our direction of to corroborate that. So the level of knowledge and travel and the way in which we sought to advance our understanding was ratcheting up, and at the same time understanding of the situation and then bring it to a the deployment of Nigerian forces into the area in close. The circumstances that arose on Wednesday evening question raised a significant risk that the hostage-takers and Thursday morning represented an accelerated closing would become aware that the operation was under way. of a time window which simply made it impossible to consult as fully as one might ideally have liked. I am Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): As chair of the British- assured that information was continually being transmitted Italian parliamentary group, I have been closely following between intelligence agencies, as is the norm between reports in the Italian press. Saturday’s La Stampa stated allied agencies, but that there was not enough time for that the Italian secret services had been informed in the the discussions at Government-to-Government level that morning, and Saturday’s Corriere reported that the two we might have had if a further day, or even 12 hours, countries’ secret services spoke to each other at 10.15 am had been available to us. on Thursday, when the operation was imminent. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we, and all our counterparts Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): As my right and friends in the Italian Parliament, should stand in hon. Friend and others have said, this was an extremely solidarity in facing threats from terrorism, hostage taking difficult operation, and one in which the odds were and piracy, and that rather than allowing critics to increasingly stacked against us. Does my right hon. divide us, we should continue to work together against Friend agree that while we commend the courage and terrorism and hostage taking? professionalism of our special forces, it is extremely important that any examination of the details of what took place does not in any way compromise the necessary Mr Hammond: I very much agree with my hon. secrecy of the methods that they employ? Friend’s sentiment, and I can assure him that that has been the nature of the relationship between the UK Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. authorities and the Italians throughout this process. We The operational security of our special forces remains have worked closely together and it has been a relationship paramount at all times, which is why we never comment of close collaboration and close understanding. On the on their operations and, indeed, never confirm or deny question of communication, I can only repeat what I their involvement in any particular operation. have already said: my understanding is that there was regular, day-to-day communication between the intelligence Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) agencies, including on the morning of last Thursday. (Lab): Christopher McManus was one of my constituents. I have been in touch with his family regularly both Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Mario Monti and before and after his untimely death, and I want to pay a his Government are doing a tremendous and very difficult very real tribute to their unceasing efforts to secure his job in repairing the damage done by the Berlusconi 149 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria)13 MARCH 2012 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria) 150

[Mr Ben Bradshaw] raised by the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs is crucial, not least because we have so many regime, and they are our natural allies on many issues, excellent Department for International Development not least in the European Union, so can the Secretary of officials and people from the voluntary sector working State assure the House that he, the Foreign Secretary in the sensitive area of education, particularly in the and the Prime Minister will make every effort to address volatile northern states. What hope can the Secretary of the apparent grievance felt at the highest level in the State give those officials that sufficiently robust security Italian Government about some elements of the way in arrangements are in place for those important workers? which this operation was handled? Mr Hammond: The Under-Secretary of State for Mr Hammond: I echo the right hon. Gentleman’s International Development, my hon. Friend the Member sentiments. We have extremely good relationships with for Eddisbury (Mr O’Brien) tells me that we have taken the Italians, including on military and defence matters. all necessary steps to protect UK personnel in Nigeria I repeat what I said earlier: I believe that the conversations who are working on aid programmes, and the Under- that have taken place over the weekend have very Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth substantially defused the situation. On Thursday, there Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North West will be an operational visit to brief the Italians on Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) tells me that we have taken military and intel channels, and I am told that the the appropriate steps to protect Foreign Office personnel, Foreign Secretary intends to visit Italy later in March. too.

Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): For the Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ reasons outlined by the Secretary of State, there can be Co-op): The right hon. Gentleman has talked about the no doubt in my mind that the Prime Minister took the security support being provided to President Jonathan right decision—the only question is whether that decision and the Government of Nigeria. Does he or the Foreign was communicated quickly enough to the Italians. Secretary have any plans to visit Nigeria to cement that According to what my hon. Friend the Member for relationship further and offer any further support that Banbury (Tony Baldry) cited from the Italian press, it the Nigerian Government may require? would appear that the decision was communicated quickly but that it perhaps did not then reach up into the Mr Hammond: The Under-Secretary of State for Government in Italy as quickly as it should have done. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend Will the Secretary of State confirm that we did convey the Member for North West Norfolk has just informed the information about the decision as quickly as we me that he will be in Nigeria next week. I am not aware could, and that there was no question of our deciding of the Foreign Secretary’s forward travel plans, but, as I not to do that because of doubts about the information said to the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire leaking, the Italians wanting to pay ransoms or anything (Mr Murphy) a few moments ago, when we publish our of that sort? defence engagement strategy shortly, Members will see that we are placing very great importance on the defence Mr Hammond: I can absolutely assure my hon. Friend relationship with Nigeria. Defence Ministers will be that there was no question of information being withheld. responding to that document by pursuing the deepening There were two clear, separate channels of information. and strengthening of those relationships. The intelligence agencies were communicating on a regular basis, and the British ambassador in Rome went Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I join colleagues as soon as he practically could to deliver the information in paying tribute to not only our special forces, but our to the Italian Government, once the operation had got intelligence services, for their professionalism and dedication, under way. and for the unique global security reach they give our country. In particular, I welcome the message that this Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): As the Secretary of operation sends—tragic though the final outcome was— State will know, a number of foreign nationals are still which is that in such a situation, the UK leaves no one being held as kidnap victims in Nigeria and many behind and leaves no stone unturned in looking after British citizens work in Nigeria. I hope that this is not the interests of our citizens abroad. seen as the end of support for the Nigerian Government. Will he confirm that if President Jonathan asks for Mr Hammond: I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments. more support to help with counter-terrorism, it will be That is absolutely our position: when a UK citizen is forthcoming from us? deprived of their liberty, wherever in the world, we will deploy all the resources available to us to seek their safe Mr Hammond: I thought that I had already said that return. the package of counter-terrorism support that we put in place after the Prime Minister’s visit this year will Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I continue. So long as the Nigerians are facing a threat worked as an engineer in Nigeria for several years, and I from extremist Islamist terrorists, we will support them, can only pay tribute to the courage of Mr McManus as we support other allies in the fight against terrorists. and his colleague in facing captivity for so long. I welcome the assurances about working with Nigeria to address Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Members of the challenge of terrorism, but many British engineers this House who serve on the all-party group on global do go abroad to work, partly because of a lack of education for all spent half-term week in Nigeria, and opportunities in this country, so will the Secretary of the spectre of the burnt-out United Nations building in State work with his colleagues across government to Abuja will stay in our minds for a long time. The question ensure that these people are well informed about the 151 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria)13 MARCH 2012 Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria) 152 threats they may face, and that we are well informed of the pace at which the operation developed, they were the numbers working abroad and the work they do? We informed as expeditiously as possible. As I have said must properly value their contribution. many times already this afternoon, the lines of communication between the intelligence agencies were Mr Hammond: The Foreign Office maintains travel pretty much continuously open. advice to UK travellers in respect of all countries and will, of course, update it, but I take on board the hon. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Lady’s comments about engineers and people working The House will recall the tragic cases of Kenneth Bigley in similar professions, who of course play a very important and Margaret Hassan, who were killed by their captors ambassadorial role for the UK as they go about their in Iraq some years ago, as well as the steps taken by my daily business. We seek to understand where people are right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) although, of course, we do not have formal registration to ensure that the families received adequate ongoing requirements in any sense. support. May I press the Secretary of State to say what ongoing support will be given to the family of Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): My right Mr McManus? hon. Friend suggested that the heightened level of military activity in Sokoto might have alerted the kidnappers Mr Hammond: The Foreign Office has a well-established that their security had been compromised. Was there way of dealing with those issues after such an event. I any way in which that military activity could have been know that Foreign Office officials have been in continuous reduced or was it absolutely essential to the conduct of contact with the family and will continue to provide the operation? support to them.

Mr Hammond: The control of the wider area was Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): Last year, the under the command of the Nigerian military authorities Economic Community of West African States warned and the approach that they determined was appropriate— the international community about the amount of former they, after all, are in the best position to judge—was Libyan weaponry that was crossing the border straight that a cordon at some distance needed to be placed into the hands of Boko Haram, al-Qaeda and al-Shabaab. around the area. Our concern was that a number of Given our financial interests in the area, what pressures events, starting with the arrest of members of the group are the Government putting on the international community on Tuesday evening through to the movements of Nigerian to address that in order to prevent further UK kidnappings? military into the area overnight on Wednesday, could have given the kidnappers an increasing awareness of Mr Hammond: I am not sure that I see a direct link. what was going on and therefore put at increasing levels There are two separate issues here. First, there is the of risk the lives of the hostages. lawlessness in Nigeria and the threat it represents in terms of the kidnapping of UK citizens, and I have Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May I associate outlined the support we are giving to the Nigerians to myself with what the Defence Secretary and the shadow maintain their counter-terrorism effort. Secondly, there Defence Secretary said about the operation itself? The is a real and serious concern about unaccounted-for Secretary of State gave us some detail about the timeline weapons, which tend to be heavier weapons such as of events, but he did not give us the exact time at which shoulder-launched ground-to-air missiles. The UK has our ambassador in Rome informed the Italian authorities been involved with the US in a major operation in that an operation was getting under way. What was that Libya since the end of the conflict there to try to time? identify, track down and secure weapons that have become unaccounted for. Mr Hammond: I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman the exact time, but the Cobra meeting broke up just before Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I want to associate 9 am and the responsible officials undertook to go away myself with hon. Members’ comments sending sympathies and contact the British ambassador in Rome immediately to the families of Christopher McManus and Franco and to ask him to go as soon as was practicable to the Lamolinara. I also thank our British forces for their Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Rome to provide the sterling efforts out on the field. Boko Haram is a information to them. ruthless, murderous terrorist organisation that kills at will—some 200 people have been killed, 400 churches Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): have been burned down and thousands have been displaced. Having established the absence of a power of veto in It is trying to create an Islamic state in northern Nigeria. this case, what could Mr Monti possibly have said had What military and financial assistance does the Minister he been consulted in advance, as apparently he wished feel that the British Government and their allies could to have been, that would materially have impacted on give to Nigerian authorities to rid Nigeria of Boko the decision matrix and, ultimately, the course of events? Haram once and for all and to enable Nigeria to be a stable influence in Africa? Mr Hammond: I do not think that the course of events would have been changed in any way. In fairness, Mr Hammond: As I have said, DFID is providing one if the boot was on the other foot, UK Ministers would of our largest packages of bilateral aid to the Nigerian undoubtedly feel the need to know what was going on Government. Following the Prime Minister’s visit last with an operation that would impact on the life of a year, we are providing a counter-terrorism support package UK citizen. I do not think that the Italians’ concern is and will continue to provide that support to the Government in any way unreasonable, I just think they need to of Nigeria in their struggle against Islamist extremism understand—I believe that they do, now—that, as regards in northern Nigeria. 153 13 MARCH 2012 154

Point of order Football (Financial Transparency) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 4.16 pm No. 23) Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The written version of the Minister’s 4.17 pm statement was not available to Members until 24 minutes into the statement. Is it possible, through your good Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I beg offices, to remind Ministers of the importance of providing to move, written versions of their statements to Back Benchers in That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require a football club a timely fashion? playing in the top four tiers of English and Scottish professional football to disclose the identity of its owner, the identity of the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for owner of its home playing ground, training ground, any intellectual his point of order. I do not think we need to labour this property associated with the club or a third party stake in its players and the identities of outstanding creditors; to require all point and I am sure that he would be the last Member creditors of a football club to be compensated equally should the of the House who would seek to take any opportunity club go into administration; and for connected purposes. to do so. The Secretary of State apologised for what I I want to introduce this Bill to give the House a think was an inadvertent error in failing to supply the chance to have its say on the wide issues associated with shadow Secretary of State with a copy of the statement the financial failure of many professional football clubs until after he had come into the Chamber. I think that in England and Scotland. The Bill proposes measures the general expectation that Ministers will do their best that would provide an early warning to the football is understood and I feel sure that the Secretary of State authorities to take action and stand up for the interests is as assiduous in discharging his responsibilities as of the communities that the clubs serve. Some might say anybody else. that that is all well and good but is surely a matter for football and not a concern for Parliament. I believe we should be concerned when communities have to stand by powerless when their club is stripped of its assets and left drowning in a sea of debt it can never hope to repay. I believe we should be concerned when taxpayers lose millions in unpaid taxes when clubs go into administration, and when local businesses are left out of pocket and at risk of financial failure as a result. I believe that we should be concerned when, in a global game, millions of pounds are passing in and out of this country to buy clubs and players and we cannot be sure of the source or destination of that money. I believe we should be concerned when players can effectively be trafficked around the world under the control of the third-party interests who control them. Let me say a little more about each of the areas of concern I have outlined and how the Bill is designed to help address them. First, fans should know who owns their club and that these people pass the fit and proper person test that has been designed by the football authorities. I have no problem with foreign ownership of clubs, but we need to know who the owners are. In the case of Leeds United, fans went six years without knowing, until Ken Bates assumed control of the club from the future sports fund trust, which was registered in Nevis in the West Indies and administered from Switzerland. We do not know how much he paid for it, or whom he paid, and if we believe his testimony, he did not know whom he had paid either. The sale of the club was not advertised—rather strange if one is selling an asset and trying to get the best price. Many people believe that the only way he could have pulled off this deal was if he or close associates or family members had effectively controlled the club all along. Last year I made inquiries with the Football League about the identity of the owners of Coventry City football club, and was told that it did not know who owned the club either. The letter that I received from Nick Craig, the director of legal affairs, went on to say: “We have for some time expressed our concerns as regards investment vehicles (often offshore) and the issue of the lack of 155 Football (Financial Transparency)13 MARCH 2012 Football (Financial Transparency) 156 transparency surrounding ownership of them. Indeed we have seemed to have been derived from illegal transactions, previously sought assistance from DCMS”— to complex international money laundering cases. The the Department for Culture, Media and Sport— report noted: “and HMRC”— “Football clubs are indeed seen by criminals as the perfect Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs— vehicles for money laundering.” “in that respect but to no avail. We are left in a position where we It went on to say that can regulate and seek to require clubs to comply but are reliant on “the targets are frequently clubs in financial trouble looking for self-declaration with no official means of independent verification. ‘lifesaving’ sponsors” The proliferation of offshore investment trusts means we will never always be 100% certain in all cases but we continually assess and that the appropriateness of our rules in a changing environment.” “the lack of regulation or control over legal structures and the How can we apply a fit and proper person test to ownership or control of football clubs means that they are easy to acquire.” football club ownership if we do not know who the ultimate owners are? We have to ensure that the measures proposed in this Bill can be enforced to restrict these practices and send On Friday last week the football authorities published a message out to the world that the owners of a club in their joint response to the Culture, Media and Sport England or Scotland cannot hide their identity or the Committee’s report on football governance. The report source of their funds. proposed the establishment of a Football Association regulatory authority. The role of the authority would be I shall touch briefly on third-party ownership of to co-ordinate the enforcement of rules between players and the football creditors’ rule. Third-party competitions and to step in if it feels that the Football ownership of footballers is banned in the UK, but not League or the premier league in particular are not in many other countries in Europe and around the following through on their duties. world. There is already an established practice of player This is a welcome step forward, and certainly the ownership funds buying the controlling interest in a premier league seems to have taken a tougher stance on player at a club in, say, South America, and moving him ownership issues than the Football League in the case on to a European club, with a view to a further transfer of Leeds. However, I believe we need to go further by to a top club at a time of the ownership fund’s choosing. requiring fuller declarations on behalf of club owners, Even if third-party ownership is banned in the final with the authorities having the right to check this destination country, this financial interest could be information with the club’s bankers. That is why the Bill hidden by agreements to pay agents, or for payback calls for a public declaration from anyone owning any clauses to the selling club and then back to the player stake in a football club and its major assets, such as its fund, depending on the number of appearances a player playing and training ground, and for the football authorities makes, or indeed whether he is ultimately sold on again. to have access to a full list of the creditors of the club. In a recent survey conducted among players in eastern The authorities should have the right to determine the Europe and the former USSR by FIFPro, 40% of source of funds, as well as the legal entity responsible footballers said that their salaries were not paid by the for them. club they played for. That is why the Bill calls for a Also, as part of the football club licensing scheme register to be available to the football authorities for any proposed by the Select Committee and accepted in financial ties third parties have to players in a club. That principle by the football authorities, there should be is also at the heart of one of the big problems in some oversight of a club’s financial performance to football: some people make money simply from the ensure that it has the funds it requires to complete the margin they take on buying and selling the assets they playing season. Early intervention should be normal control and the value they can get someone to pay. For when, for example, clubs fall behind with their tax those people, that is how they make money from the payments. This is now a requirement for clubs playing game and ownership of a club is simply a means of in the English premier league. It should have happened accessing and influencing the market. in the case of Rangers, a situation that should not have Finally, the Bill would provide for the abolition of the been able to get as bad as is it did. The double tragedy football creditors’ rule. The rule means that when a here is that Rangers’ financial failure may take down football club goes into administration, people in football other clubs, such as Dunfermline, which had entered to whom it owes money, such as players and other clubs, into agreements with Rangers in good faith and is left receive their money in full but other creditors, such as a being owed large sums. local printer who prints the match programmes, the St These are issues of concern not just for football fans, John Ambulance or a local builder who works on the but for the law enforcement authorities. A report published ground, receive just pence in the pound. In the case of in 2009 by the Financial Action Task Force, based on the administration of Leeds United, the club also left £6 research across 25 countries, including England, highlighted million in unpaid taxes. Even the chairman of the the fact that because football is an international cash Football League has admitted that he business with many assets controlled offshore, it is “cannot defend the morality of it”. vulnerable to approaches from criminal organisations. I believe that getting rid of the football creditors’ rule The desperate financial state of many clubs may also would encourage football clubs to have greater openness mean that an approach from a would-be sugar daddy in their dealings with each other, as there would be an could be too good to resist, and without too many element of shared risk. A club would really want to questions being asked. know if another club to whom it was selling a player The report indentified more than 20 cases of money could afford the transfer fees it was asking. Getting rid laundering through the football sector, ranging from of the rule would also give the football authorities an simple cases of smuggling large amounts of cash that even greater stake in ensuring that clubs do not go into 157 Football (Financial Transparency)13 MARCH 2012 Football (Financial Transparency) 158

[Damian Collins] Queen’s Speech. The Bill’s fundamental weakness is the fact that it would deal only with the top four leagues. I administration during the season, which compromises have another love in my life, another football club, and the competition as they are forced to sell players and the world’s fourth oldest: Worksop Town football club. severely weaken their squad. As a non-league club, Worksop Town would not be The issues I have touched on today affect English and covered by the Bill, yet the non-league clubs across Scottish football, but not exclusively; they affect football England and elsewhere have suffered far more than the right around the world. In the absence of firm leadership professional clubs as a result of the problems of opaqueness from FIFA on these important matters, I believe that it and the asset strippers who have come and taken the is important that we take a stand and do our bit to clean clubs away. Some 33 current English league teams of up football in our country and give our fans a proper the 92 have been in administration since 1992 and the say and stake in how their clubs are run. These are the Sky deal and the establishment of the premier league. reasons why we need the Bill, which I commend to the Far more non-league clubs have gone into administration, House. and a considerable number have been liquidated. Whether in Worksop, Halifax, York, Wrexham, Crawley, Salisbury, 4.27 pm Boston or Lincoln, non-league football across the country has been plagued by the problem of people buying John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I rise to point out clubs, asset-stripping and attempting to develop the briefly a fundamental flaw in the Bill, but I commend land. It is a fundamental problem. the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian I shall not push the Bill to a vote, but should the hon. Collins) for the work he has done in this field and Gentleman come back to the House with it after the through the Culture, Media and Sport Committee—its Queen’s Speech, I urge him to incorporate non-league reports are excellent and we look forward to the report clubs into what is a very worthy proposal. on racism in football. He identified a particular problem that is dear to my heart: the opaqueness of the ownership Question put and agreed to. of Leeds United football club, a club I have supported Ordered, throughout my life. Indeed, I have attended many hundreds That Damian Collins, Dr Thérèse Coffey, Philip Davies, of the club’s matches over the seasons—I appear to be Thomas Docherty, Paul Farrelly, Louise Mensch, Penny the only Member of the House who regularly attends. I Mordaunt, Steve Rotheram, Mr Adrian Sanders, Jim therefore have a great deal of sympathy for the principles Sheridan, Mr Gerry Sutcliffe and Mr John Whittingdale and detail of what he is putting forward. present the Bill. However, we are coming to the end of a parliamentary Damian Collins accordingly presented the Bill. Session and I know that the hon. Gentleman will be Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on considering resubmitting the Bill in some way after the Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 316) 159 13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 160

Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, Opposition Day but before we move beyond that point will he confirm that Dr Chand is an adviser to the Labour party, which [UN-ALLOTTED HALF DAY] inspired the petition? Further, given that Dr Chand has called on the British Medical Association to take strike action against the Bill, does the right hon. Gentleman Health and Social Care Bill share that view, or will he disown him?

Mr Speaker: We come now to the main business and Andy Burnham: Dr Chand is not an adviser to the to the Opposition motion in the name of the Leader of Labour party, and the Secretary of State, in seeking to the Opposition. It might be helpful if I inform the inject that party political note so early on in today’s House that I have selected the amendment in the name debate and to claim that the petition of 170,000 people of Mr Andrew George. is a political petition, continues, it suggests to me, to Just before I call the shadow Secretary of State to misread the mood of this country on his unnecessary move the motion, may I remind the House that in Bill. light of the extensive interest in this debate I have imposed a five-minute limit on individual Back Benchers’ The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon contributions? There is no formal limit on contributions Burns): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? from the Front Benchers, but I feel sure that the shadow Secretary of State and Secretary of State will tailor Andy Burnham: No, I will not. their contributions in order to facilitate their Back-Bench colleagues’ participation. We have arrived at a dangerous moment, not only for the NHS but for our democracy. To recap, this is a Bill for which nobody voted at the general election and 4.31 pm which does not have a mandate, a Bill ruled out by the Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): I beg to move, coalition agreement, and a Bill that has been so heavily That this House notes the e-petition signed by 170,000 people amended in another place that in effect the unelected calling on the Government to drop the Health and Social Care Chamber has written a new legal structure for the Bill; and declines to support the Bill in its current form. national health service that we are being asked to rubber- I do so on behalf of the 170,000 people who have signed stamp. Yet despite all that, it could be rammed through an e-petition calling on the Government to drop the this House in just seven days’ time, in defiance of an Health and Social Care Bill. outstanding legal ruling from the Information Tribunal and in the teeth of overwhelming professional and The petition was initiated by Dr Kailash Chand, a public opposition. distinguished general practitioner in the north-west of many years’ standing, and I pay tribute to him today. This is an intolerable situation, and it is no way to He has unified patients who depend on the NHS and treat our country’s most valued institution. Far-ranging professionals who have devoted their lives to it in this changes to the NHS of the kind proposed by the Secretary simple but sincere call on the Government: ″Drop the of State can be made only by public consent and Bill″. Today, their voice will be heard in this House, as it professional consensus, and it is plain for all to see that is entitled to be. We will not let them be silenced, even the Government have achieved neither of those things. though attempts were made to stop this debate taking place. Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): Will the right hon. That takes us— Gentleman give way?

Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): Will the right Andy Burnham: No, I will not. hon. Gentleman give way? To proceed as planned risks profound damage to the relationships of trust that underpin a successful health Andy Burnham: No. I have been listening to the service and risks a further erosion of trust in our strictures from the Chair, and I want to get into my democratic process that this House can ill afford. speech so that Back-Bench colleagues have a chance to Today there is one final chance for this House to ask contribute. the Government to step back from this dangerous course That takes us straight to the heart of the predicament and reflect the feeling that there is in every single in which we find ourselves. There is huge concern in the constituency in England. In introducing this debate, I country about the Bill, but the Government and have a bigger responsibility than speaking for Labour Parliament— Members. The call to drop the Bill is not a narrow Labour campaign, as was claimed just now and in The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): Gateshead at the weekend—it is a new coalition for the Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? NHS that has brought together patients, professionals and people of all political views, including, I dare say, some of those in the Secretary of State’s own party. Andy Burnham: I will in a moment. People who have signed the petition will be watching There is huge concern in the country about the Bill, our proceedings closely. They will be hoping against but the Government and Parliament are seen simply not hope that somehow we will put the NHS first, put aside to be listening. I give way to the Secretary of State, and the customary clash of party politics, and find common I hope that he might prove us wrong. ground that can help the NHS. 161 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 162

Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ diagnostics and devices, and the aspirations of modern Co-op): I have here a letter to the Prime Minister from patients demand reform? Did not the Labour party Dr Clare Highton and Dr Haren Patel, the chairs of used to be the party of reform? Is not the right hon. City and Hackney clinical commissioning group, who Gentleman’s partisan posturing simply an illustration say that they want that Labour is no longer fit for Government? “to add our voice to the call for the Bill to be withdrawn.” Does my right hon. Friend agree that that underlines his Andy Burnham: Those factors demand service reform. point about the wide range of people who want it to be I remind the hon. Gentleman that he stood at the dropped? election for a moratorium on such reform, which was a dishonest pledge that would have prevented the NHS Andy Burnham: I think that Government Members from making the changes that it needs. are misjudging the mood of the country, and particularly The NHS model that the hon. Gentleman and his of health professionals, who have not given a knee-jerk colleagues seek to break with the Bill is judged to be the political response to the Bill but have given it careful most efficient health care service in the world. The consideration since it began as a White Paper and then Secretary of State says today that that model is simply proceeded on its tortuous path through Parliament. unsustainable in this century, with the ageing society They have come to the conclusion that it is better, even and all the other pressures on it. I put it to the hon. now, to abandon it and work back through the existing Gentleman and the Secretary of State that that model is legal structures of the NHS rather than proceed with not the problem but the solution to the challenges of an the new legal structure and all the upheaval that that ageing society, because it is proven to be the most fair entails. and cost-effective way of delivering health care to the whole population. Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Yesterday I We need to be honest with ourselves today. I mentioned was at a meeting with people with diabetes who expressed the fact that it is just political pride and gut loyalty that grave concern that they do not know what services are driving the Bill towards the statute book. Those would be available if the Bill were to go ahead. Is not motivations, however understandable and human they that another good reason to take a pause and decide to are and however familiar to politicians of every stripe, drop the Bill until all these problems can be resolved? do not justify inflicting a sub-optimal legislative structure on our most cherished public service and making the Andy Burnham: I am aware of the concerns expressed already difficult job of health professionals even harder by Diabetes UK and, indeed, by many other organisations as they struggle to make sense of Parliament’s intentions. representing people with long-term conditions, who have not been given the clarity that they need in order to Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Does give their support to these changes. [Interruption.] The the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is ideology, not Secretary of State says “Rubbish”, but I am afraid that evidence-based policy, that is driving ever greater those questions have not been answered, and that is not competition in health care markets? Does he agree that good enough. the evidence suggests that that is the way to undermine our NHS, not to improve quality and equity? Sajid Javid rose— Andy Burnham: I agree with the hon. Lady. It is that Andy Burnham: I will not give way. ideology that the NHS and health professionals are As I said, we need to see whether we can find common rejecting. They want to work in an essentially collaborative ground and put the NHS before party politics. That is health service. They do not accept the vision that pits the test that I set for the debate, and it is the spirit in hospital against hospital and doctor against doctor. which I wish to frame it. Today is not just an Opposition Barely anybody has a good word to say about this day but Merseyside derby day. Usually both occasions busted flush of a Bill, which has lurched from one put me in a highly partisan mood, yet despite having disaster to another. The unprecedented pause did not double reason to be in tribal mode, I am going to take address the real concerns, but simply added bureaucracy the unusual step of urging Labour Members not to vote and complexity. The 1,000-plus amendments are not a for our motion but to consider the amendment tabled sign of improvement, but of confusion, complexity and by the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) and contradiction. They have left a mess of a Bill that even his Liberal Democrat colleagues. We will listen with the Health Secretary cannot recognise as his own. If interest to what he has to say. The amendment sets out a that was not bad enough, an unfolding communications sensible way forward that we can all unite around. It disaster has alienated the very people the Government sends out the simple message that the importance of the are depending on to implement their Bill. A Downing NHS to us all and to our constituents should trump any street summit was called to discuss the implementation tribal loyalty. It is important to say that, because I fear of a reform that is about clinical leadership, but doctors’ that sheer gut loyalty, political pride and the need to and nurses’ leaders were shut out of Downing street. It save face are the only forces driving a deeply defective was hard to see how the situation could get any worse, Bill towards the statute book. but it just has. First, on Friday, the Information Tribunal ruled against George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): I had the the Government and in favour of my right hon. Friend great privilege of working in biomedical research in and the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey). around the NHS for 15 years before coming to the I pay tribute to the assiduous way in which he has House. Is it not the case that the challenges of an ageing pursued his principled case. The tribunal ruled against population, the explosion of new biomedical treatments, the publication of the strategic risk register, but in favour 163 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 164 of the publication of the transition risk register, vindicating Andy Burnham: I am afraid that I cannot read all the our position and dismissing the Prime Minister’s claims intricate smoke signals of a Lib Dem conference, but to against my actions as Health Secretary. my simple mind, removing permission from the motion Let us be clear about what that ruling represents. It is for peers to endorse the Bill is a pretty clear signal that an incredible state of affairs for any Government to that permission has been withheld. suffer such a serious legal reversal at this stage of a Before I deal with the amendment that the hon. protracted parliamentary process. It is an indictment of Member for St Ives has tabled, I want to tackle directly the judgment, or lack of it, of the Minister of State, the charge of scaremongering that has been levelled at Department of Health, the right hon. Member for Labour Members, and draw the House’s attention to Chelmsford (Mr Burns) and others in the Department, evidence already emerging that supports our central in their handling of the Bill. Where is the Minister’s concerns about the effect of the reorganisation. We good grace in defeat? It is simple: my right hon. Friend have consistently said that it is the wrong time to the Member for Wentworth and Dearne won and the reorganise the NHS—indeed, it is the worst time imaginable. Government lost. What are they waiting for? They must The Government are asking the NHS to do too much. publish the risk register today and give Parliament the It is facing its toughest ever financial challenge. Combining courtesy of knowing all the relevant information on that with the biggest ever reorganisation was a catastrophic Ministers’ plans before they ask us to approve them. misjudgment. The Government dismantled the existing Instead, what do we get? Silence and playing for time. structures of the NHS before the new ones were in They are hoping to string it out until after 20 March. place, leading to a loss of grip and focus at local level That is simply not good enough. just when that was most needed. We have now had two lost years in the NHS. When Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My right hon. the system should have been getting to grips with the Friend is, as ever, making the case for the NHS, not for financial challenge, it has been distracted and destabilised the privatisation that the Tories and their Lib Dem by reorganisation. Information is now emerging that friends are pursuing. We are talking about the future of bears that out. The Nicholson challenge is a huge task the NHS, so let me quote Victoria Roberts, a student for the NHS, but after only six months, we hear that it is nurse from Merseyside, who starts her training in two already falling behind. New information provided from weeks. She says: the Department to the Health Service Journal in response to a freedom of information request reveals how two “I am a student nurse due to start my training in 2 weeks. This is not the NHS I want to serve or work in, but rather will help out of three—68%—non-foundation trust acute trusts only those who can pay the most.” missed their savings targets for the first six months of the Nicholson challenge. At least five have made less Does my right hon. Friend agree with that assessment than 20% of their planned savings for the year 2011-12. of where the Tories are taking the NHS? Overall, at the half-year point, the non-FT acute sector had a net deficit of £135 million. That is a real warning Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We sign, which suggests that the Government are storing must have shorter interventions. A lot of people want to up huge problems for the future. speak and we have got to get on with it. That is not conjecture. There is evidence that a destabilised NHS is losing its grip on finances and operational Andy Burnham: I wish the Government would listen standards. For the tenth week in a row, the NHS last to voices such as the student nurse that my hon. Friend week missed the Secretary of State’s lowered standard the Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) quoted— for accident and emergency, with fewer than 95% of people who want to dedicate their lives to the NHS. people seen within four hours. That is the main barometer Frankly, their views are brushed aside by an arrogant of pressure on NHS hospitals. The figures clearly tell us Government. that hospitals are not coping with the pressure that they It gets worse as the Bill enters a new crisis, with one of are under, and that job losses and staff shortages are the coalition parties formally withdrawing permission having a real impact. from its peers to support the Bill. It is not at all clear what happens now—whether Lib Dem peers will defy Sajid Javid: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? the wishes of their party or their leader. Given the developments of the last few days, it is simply inconceivable Andy Burnham: I will not. that the Government can continue on their current Rather than just reel off statistics about elective waiting course and present the discredited Bill here in seven times, I ask the Secretary of State today to address A days. The only responsible thing to do is listen to what and E performance. Why does he think the NHS is Lib Dem Members are saying and support what the missing his relaxed target and what steps is he taking to amendment tabled by the hon. Member for St Ives address that? seeks to do. I will deal with that shortly. Another of our central concerns—

Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Sajid Javid: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? (LD): Just so that the right hon. Gentleman is clear, the motion that the Liberal Democrats passed on Sunday Andy Burnham: Just one second. I have said that I did not tell the Lords that they should or should not want to give hon. Members a chance to comment in the support the Bill. It simply reserved our party members’ debate, and that is what I am going to do. judgment until we see the work that the Lords are continuing to do. That is our position. I think that that Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): Will the right is sensible and fair for the NHS and our party. hon. Gentleman give way? 165 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 166

Andy Burnham: No. honest about those plans at the beginning, and have The Opposition have said that the plans will bring openly extolled the competition argument only in more huge variation and a postcode lottery writ large, which recent weeks. That is why people are worried by the is what we are beginning to see, with random rationing hidden agenda they see behind the Bill. decisions across the system. Minor operations are being The amendment from the hon. Member for St Ives restricted, generic drugs are being prescribed, and offers a way forward that can bring politicians and procedures, for instance to remove varicose veins, are professionals back together, but, in urging the Opposition being withdrawn from patients. to support it, I wish to make something very clear: in More worryingly, we have seen the emergence of a supporting the amendment, the Opposition are offering new trend: trusts are restricting access to treatment and no endorsement of the health policies in the coalition surgery based on body mass index levels or lifestyle agreement. We are simply saying that if the Government factors such as smoking. Those have been dressed up as were to stick to the precise terms of the coalition initiatives to improve public health, but many people agreement, and specifically to the clear pledge of no see them as crude attempts to save money. It seems to top-down reorganisation, that would be a better position me that that is a straightforward breach of the NHS for the NHS and would represent real progress. constitution, and indeed of its founding values. Treatment The talks could take as a starting point the stability should be according to need, not according to judgmental plan proposed by the Faculty of Public Health. GP-led decisions by unaccountable health professionals. I put it commissioning could be delivered by the clinical to the House that that is a dangerous departure. Treatment commissioning groups that the Secretary of State has according to need must mean what it says. There is no created. Furthermore, to build confidence among clinicians, sign of Ministers intervening to say that that is unacceptable I offer to agree with him some principles by which and that they will reverse those decisions. That is a worrying important service change in the NHS could be introduced glimpse of the future, in which the NHS becomes a without every hospital being used as a political football huge postcode lottery and people have limited chance at a local level. That is because the NHS needs service to challenge decisions, and it takes us to one of people’s change, not structural reform. If we continue to play central worries about the Bill: that there is no longer a politics with hospital changes, we will do the NHS the duty on local commissioners to provide comprehensive ultimate disservice of condemning it to an outdated health services. service model. There is other evidence around the system of the concerns In conclusion, I am in politics to protect the things I that the Opposition have raised. There is evidence of care about, and the NHS comes top of that list. This is fragmentation, not integration, as clinical commissioning not about politics, as was claimed at the weekend. To be groups are ordered to run an “any qualified provider” honest, it suits our narrow political objectives for the tendering process on three community services; of damage Government simply to plough on. The great irony is to the doctor-patient relationship; and of hospitals, that dropping the Bill would be the right political such as St Helier, which is in the constituency of the decision for both coalition partners. Nevertheless, we Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. desperately want them to do that, because if they do Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), being not, the damage to the NHS will be profound and destabilised by the effects of the emerging market, as possibly irreparable. clinical commissioning groups begin to withdraw services. We have called this debate both to reflect the views of Those are not invented risks or scaremongering; they the e-petitioners and to try to find a way forward are there in black and white in local and regional risks around which people can coalesce. We are ready to play registers, which Opposition Members have highlighted. a constructive part in that process. But I need to be clear We are now seeing those risks begin to materialise on with the Secretary of State: it would be a constitutional the ground, which is why the difficult judgment that so outrage were he to bring his discredited Bill back to this many royal colleges have reached is that, even now, as House in seven days. Put simply, he does not have the difficult as it is, it is safer for the NHS to work back permission of the people of this country to proceed through the existing legal structures of the system than with his plans for the NHS. He is wrong to say that the to proceed with the introduction of a new one. NHS model we have known for 63 years is unsustainable I want to assure the House that “Drop the Bill” is not in the face of the challenges of this century. pure oppositional opportunism. I have always balanced The NHS is the solution to those challenges, not the the “Drop the Bill” call with the words, “And we will problem, having been judged the most efficient and fair work with the Government to introduce GP-led system in the world. Those are truly great strengths, and commissioning.” I have never had any objection to my plea to the Secretary of State is to build on them, doctors being more able to shape services, nor to more not throw them away. However, if he will not listen, the control and choice for patients, but the simple truth is House can still intervene. Time is running out for the that the Government did not need a new Bill to introduce NHS. Tonight we have a final chance to put the NHS those things. Indeed, the very fact that they have arrogantly first and party politics second. The country wants us to already introduced those changes in advance of the Bill do that. Let us rise to the occasion. I commend the makes the argument that the Bill is simply unnecessary. motion to the House. The Bill is a huge exercise in futility, but the reason we have one is that the Government want to go further 4.56 pm on a misguided mission to rewrite the entire legal structure of the NHS to facilitate more competition and a market- The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): based system. That, more than anything, is worrying As a learned man, Mr Deputy Speaker, you will recall people and why they are withholding support. That is that Plato said that the Government’s problem. They were not open and “empty vessels make the loudest sound”. 167 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 168

The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Front been a study in this: as his arguments have diminished, Benchers need to be a little calmer. A lot of Members so his tone has become more strident. By the end of his want to be called, and we want to hear the Secretary of speech, he was simply shouting slogans. I listened carefully State. to his speech, but in vain, for evidence of an argument, still less of an Opposition policy. Mr Lansley: Let me just say this to the hon. Member I ask the House to reject the motion, which is a for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), who is sitting on desperate ploy from a desperate party.The House scrutinised the Opposition Front Bench. There may be many things and approved the Bill, with amendments. following a that we can debate in this House, including the policies, substantial and highly constructive engagement right but I deeply resent any implication that I do not care across health and care services and with the independent about the national health service. I believe that I have NHS Future Forum. We accepted all their demonstrated that I do; and his hon. Friends—and, to recommendations. The chairman of the British Medical be fair, the right hon. Member for Leigh—have made Association Council said at the time that the that absolutely clear, time and again. Dr Clare Gerada, recommendations on behalf of the Royal College of General Practitioners, has said clearly that she recognises the Prime Minister’s “address many of the BMA’s key concerns”. and my passion and commitment and that of the Prime Dr Clare Gerada, the chair of the Royal College of Minister to support the national health service. General Practitioners, said that Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Secretary “we are reassured that things are moving in the right direction”. of State said some moments ago that the Bill had all Yes, things have moved in the right direction, including, been debated in this House, but of course it has not. apparently, Dr Gerada, encouraged by her council. Possibly the most damaging aspect financially to the NHS outside England is the increase in usage of the In the other place, things have moved in the right private sector in the NHS in England to 49%. That has direction, too. We have had hours of constructive debate never been debated in this House, has it? leading to further positive amendments, including amendments to put beyond doubt the Secretary of State’s responsibility and accountability with respect to Mr Lansley: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is a comprehensive health service, and a duty on the completely wrong. The private income cap for foundation Secretary of State to have regard to the NHS constitution; trusts was debated fully in Committee in this House, amendments to make it clear that Monitor will have the and it has been debated again in another place. The power to require health care providers to promote reason for the so-called 49% was simply that Members integration of NHS services, enabling Monitor to use in another House said that they wanted to be absolutely its powers to support integration and co-operation in clear that the principal legal purpose of foundation the interests of patients; and amendments conferring trusts is to provide services to the NHS, and therefore new responsibilities on the NHS Commissioning Board that, by definition, a foundation trust could not have and clinical commissioning groups to play an active role more of its activity securing private income than NHS in supporting education and training, and requiring income, hence the 49%. But in truth, the safeguards that providers to co-operate with the Secretary of State are built in make it absolutely clear that, whatever the when exercising his duty to secure an effective education circumstances and whatever their private income might and training system. All those amendments were positively be—from overseas activities or overseas patients coming accepted in the Lords. to this country—foundation trusts must always demonstrate that they are benefiting NHS patients. That is why, I remind the House again, the foundation trust with the Mr George Howarth: The Secretary of State quoted highest private income—27%—is the Royal Marsden, Plato earlier. Does he recall the advice that Cromwell which delivers consistently excellent care for NHS patients. gave to Members of the Long Parliament—that they had stayed in their place for too long and to no useful Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Does my right purpose? Is that not advice that he might take? hon. Friend share my absolute astonishment at Labour Members’ collective amnesia when it comes to the 13 years of mixed-sex wards and rising levels of methicillin-resistant Mr Lansley: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman Staphylococcus aureus and C. difficile that they presided should quote Cromwell to a Cambridgeshire MP; I over, along with a failed patient record system that has think I know more about Cromwell than he does. [HON. cost billions? MEMBERS: “Ooh!”] I might also tell him— Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): What do you will come to some of those points. However, I might know about the health service? just say that, in the space of the last few days, we have had an opportunity to demonstrate that Labour signed up to an enormous, centralised, top-down NHS IT Mr Lansley: What do I know about the health service? scheme that was never going to deliver, was failing to I have been at the Government and Opposition Dispatch deliver and was costing billions. Boxes for nearly nine years speaking on behalf of the national health service. Before that I was on the Select Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): Will Committee on Health, looking out for the interests of the Secretary of State give way? the health service, and before that my father was working— [Interruption.] Mr Lansley: No. 169 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 170

[Mr Lansley] They even oppose the policies on which Labour stood at the election. Labour’s manifesto stated that In the space of under two years, my right hon. and “to safeguard the NHS in tougher fiscal times, we need sustained hon. Friends at the Department and I have delivered a reform.” reduction approaching £2 billion in the cost of the NHS The trade unions have got hold of the Labour party in IT programme. That will enable us to empower services opposition, and it is now against reform. Its manifesto right across the country to be better users and deliver also stated that better IT systems. “we will deliver up to £20bn of efficiencies in the frontline NHS, ensuring that every pound is reinvested in frontline care”. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Further to the list of changes to the Bill that the Health Secretary has I remind Labour Members, who are all wandering outlined, will he confirm that it no longer imposes around their constituencies telling the public that there reviews by the Competition Commission on the NHS, are to be £20 billion of cuts to the NHS, that that therefore ensuring that it is not treated in the same way £20 billion was in their manifesto. Now they are talking as any private industry would be? about it as if it were cuts; it is not. We are the ones who are doing it, and they are the ones who are now opposing it. They scare people by talking of cuts—[Interruption.] Mr Lansley: That is indeed true, and my hon. Friend They do not like to hear this. Actually, this year, the will also be aware—the Future Forum was clear about NHS has an increased budget of £3 billion compared this—that the NHS benefits from the transfer of with last year, and in the financial year starting this competition powers. The Bill does not create any new April there will be another increase of £3 billion compared competition powers in the NHS; it transfers the exercise with this year. The Labour manifesto also stated: of competition powers from the Office of Fair Trading to Monitor, as a sector-specific regulator, as we agreed “Foundation Trusts will be given the freedom to expand their provision into primary and community care, and to increase their in the coalition agreement. That is what the Bill does, private services”. and that is a better protection for the NHS compared with what would otherwise be the application of competition rules, and before—[Interruption.] Labour John Pugh (Southport) (LD): The right hon. Gentleman Members mutter, but it has become apparent over recent has just mentioned reform. In 2009, he said in this weeks that in 2006, when the right hon. Member for place: Leigh was a Health Minister, it was their Government “Organisational upheaval and reform do not seem to correlate who received legal advice that demonstrated that their well.”—[Official Report, 19 November 2009; Vol. 501, c. 225.] changes had introduced the application of EU competition What did he mean by that? rules into the NHS. Mr Lansley: We know that it is necessary for us to Simon Hughes: Will the Health Secretary amplify his reform in order to deliver the improvements that the answer to our Scottish National party colleague, the NHS needs, as well as the sustainability that it needs. hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), and We are not even speculating about this; we can demonstrate make it quite clear that both Government policy and, that it is happening. This is in contrast to what the right now, the construction of the Bill not only prevent hon. Member for Leigh said. He said that he was not private sector activity from going out of the health scaremongering, then he got up and did just that. He service in terms of finance, but restrict the method of scaremongered all over again. He went to a completely expanding private sector activity? The controls are now different set of data on the four-hour A and E provision, in the Bill, even if they were not at the beginning. for example. He went to the faulty monitoring data, which are completely different from the ones that we Mr Lansley rose— have always used in the past—namely, the hospital episodes statistics data, which demonstrate that we are Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Interventions must be continuing to meet the 95% target. curtailed. When we look across the range of NHS performance measures, we can see that we have improved performance Mr Lansley: There is absolutely nothing in the Bill while maintaining financial control. The monitoring that promotes or permits the transfer of NHS activities data from the NHS make that absolutely clear, and that to the private sector. Of course, NHS trusts are technically is in contrast to what happened when the right hon. able to do any amount of private activity at the moment, Gentleman was a Minister in the Department, when with no constraint. The Bill will make absolutely clear Labour increased the NHS budget and lost financial the safeguard that foundation trusts’ governors must control. That happened when the hon. Member for consent if trusts are to increase their private income by Leicester West (Liz Kendall) was a special adviser in the more than 5% in the course of one year, and that they Department. Now, we have financial control across the must always demonstrate in their annual plan and their NHS and we have the NHS in financial surplus. annual reporting how that private activity supports Let me return to the Labour manifesto—[Interruption.] their principal legal purpose, which is to provide services Labour Members do not like to hear this. It stated: to NHS patients. “Patients requiring elective care will have the right, in law, to Labour sought to oppose the Bill in another place, but choose from any provider who meets NHS standards of quality at its motion was defeated by 134 votes. We have reached a NHS costs.” stage at which the Labour party, and the right hon. Member Yes—choiceand any qualified provider are in the Labour for Leigh in particular, having embraced opposition manifesto. We are doing what Labour said should be —for which they are well suited—now oppose everything. done in its manifesto—and it is now opposing it. 171 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 172

Let us find out what it is that the right hon. Member Andy Burnham: I made the Secretary of State an offer for Leigh opposes in the Bill. I did not find that out in in my opening remarks. I said I would work with him to his speech; I heard generalised distortions, but I genuinely introduce his vision of clinically led commissioning, but want to know. Let us take some examples. Is it the he seems strangely silent about that and is pursing a Secretary of State’s duty in clause 1 to promote a very partisan tone. Will he confirm that he could introduce comprehensive health service free of charge, as now? GP-led commissioning without any need for legislation— No, he cannot possibly be against that. Is it that the Bill and without all the upheaval that is coming with his incorporates for the first time a duty on the Secretary of reorganisation? State to act to secure continuous improvement in quality— not just access to an NHS service, but putting quality at Mr Lansley: The short answer to that is no. If one the heart of the NHS? Is he against that? No, surely not. wishes to arrive at a place where the clinical commissioning Anyway, that approach began with Ara Darzi, and we groups have responsibility for budgets and proper have strengthened it. accountability—including democratic accountability for what they do—legislation is required to get there. That Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) is why we are putting legislation in place to make it rose— happen. Dame Joan Ruddock rose— Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab) rose— Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con) rose— Mr Lansley: Let us try this one. For the first time the Bill introduces in clause 3 a duty that embeds the need Mr Lansley: I give way to my hon. Friend. to act to reduce inequalities firmly within the health system. After 13 years of widening health inequalities under Labour, surely he cannot be against that—or is Angie Bray: I thank my right hon. Friend for that, he? No. Well, what about clinically led commissioning, and I thank him, too, for coming to Acton last week with doctors and nurses who are responsible for our and spending a long evening in a room full of health care given the leadership role in designing services? We professionals—doctors, dentists and pharmacists. Does heard earlier about one CCG, but 75 leaders of clinical he agree that there was a real desire in that room to commissioning groups wrote to The Times a fortnight engage constructively in discussion on the reforms rather ago. Let me quote them, because it is instructive of than to turn their back on them, as the Labour party what is happening. They said: would? “Since the…Bill was announced, we have personally seen more Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her collaboration, enthusiasm and accepted responsibility from our GP colleagues, engaged patients and other NHS leaders than initiative in bringing doctors, dentists and nurses together through previous ‘NHS re-organisations’”. to have that conversation. I really appreciated it, and I thought that it illustrated exactly what I have found—that, They continued: although not everybody in the room agreed with the “Putting clinicians in control of commissioning has allowed us Bill—[Laughter.]—many did. Contrary to what I see to concentrate on outcomes through improving quality, innovation on the Labour Benches, they all wanted to design better and prevention”— services for patients. They cared about patients and precisely the things that the NHS needs for the future. engaged in a proper debate about how to achieve that. Now the right hon. Gentleman says, “Oh, yes, we can I am still trying to find out what it is in the Bill that do GP commissioning”, but let us recall that in 2005, the right hon. Member for Leigh is against. Is it the fact practice-based commissioning was in the Labour manifesto, that the Bill strengthens the NHS constitution? He and that in 2006, he said he was in favour of it. He said should be proud of that; he introduced it. For the first that he was time, however, the Bill requires the Secretary of State to “introducing practice-based commissioning. That change will put have regard to it and the NHS Commissioning Board power in the hands of local GPs to drive improvements in their and clinical commissioning groups to promote it. He is area”—[Official Report, 16 May 2006; Vol. 446, c. 861.] not against that, I presume. What about the fact that, for the first time, the NHS Andy Burnham rose— Commissioning Board and commissioners will have a duty to promote integration throughout health and Mr Lansley: I will give way in moment. The right social care? Is the right hon. Gentleman against integrated hon. Gentleman said he was in favour of practice-based care? I do not know. Let me try another question. What commissioning. In 2010, he was the Secretary of State about the prohibition in clauses 146, 22 and 61of and was in charge of the manifesto, yet practice-based discrimination in favour of private providers, which is commissioning disappeared out of the Labour manifesto in legislation for the first time? The right hon. Gentleman —it was not there at all. After the election, he pops up may be against that, because when his party was in and says, “Oh, we are in favour of it again”. The truth is office, that is what the Government did. They discriminated that practice-based commissioning was always the right in favour of private sector providers, and we ended up idea: the Labour Government did not do it; the primary with £250 million being spent on operations that never care trusts suppressed it. The Bill makes it possible for took place and the NHS being paid more for operations clinical commissioning groups to take responsibility when it was not even allowed to bid for the work. and for doctors and nurses to design and deliver better What about the creation of a strong statutory voice for services. Because of this Bill, it will happen—and it will patients through HealthWatch? The Labour Government not be suppressed by a top-down bureaucracy. destroyed the community health councils, they destroyed 173 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 174

[Mr Lansley] The Opposition talk about privatisation. As I said to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and patient forums, and they left local involvement networks Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), there is nothing in the neutered. When they were in office, they were pretty Bill that allows any privatisation of NHS services. There dismissive of a strong patient voice. Well, we on the is nothing in it that promotes such a privatisation. Government Benches are not, and the Bill will establish The left-leaning papers talk about privatisation at that patient voice. Is the right hon. Gentleman against Hinchingbrooke hospital because Circle is an independent all trusts becoming foundation trusts? The Bill will mutual organisation. That is interesting, because the make that happen, and will support it—oh, no, I forgot: process for the franchising out of the management of according to the Labour party manifesto, Labour wanted Hinchingbrooke was started by the right hon. Gentleman all trusts to become foundation trusts. when he was Secretary of State. So there we are: the Let us keep moving through the Bill. Is the right hon. only secret Tory plan that Labour can find turns out to Gentleman against directly engaging local government be a Labour plan. in the commissioning of health services, integrating health and social care, and leading population health— public health—improvement plans? I ask the question Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): The not least because Labour local authorities throughout real issue in the debate is between long-termism and England are in favour of that. They want to improve the short-termism. Is not the reality that the Labour health of the people whom they represent. Is the right Government went aggressively down the route towards hon. Gentleman against local democratic accountability? private finance initiatives, burdening so many of our The list could go on. Is he against the provision of a foundation trust hospitals with debt that was unnecessary? regulator—Monitor—whose duty is to protect the interests of patients by promoting quality, stopping anti-competitive practices that could harm patients, supporting the Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important integration of services, and securing the continuity of point. When Labour Members talk about the private services? Is he against that? It is in the coalition agreement, sector in the NHS, they leave out of account the fact but I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is that not only did they give the private sector a sweetheart against it or not, because he does not say. deal to get it into the independent sector treatment centres, but they have left us with 102 hospitals that Is the right hon. Gentleman against statutory backing were built by the private sector and £67 billion of debt for the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence to the NHS. They wandered around the country saying, to support its work on quality? I do not know; we have “Look how we’re spending all your money to build all not heard. Is he against developing the tariff so that it these new hospitals,” but they did not spend the money pays for quality and outcomes, not for activity? He to build the new hospitals. They have left the NHS to knows that that has to happen, and he knows that it has have to deal with it now, which is why I am having to been the right thing to do for the best part of a decade, support hospitals that have unsustainable private finance but we have no idea whether he is against it now. initiative debt that the right hon. Member for Leigh and I cannot discover what the right hon. Gentleman is his colleagues did not deal with. actually against. He sits there and says that he is against the Bill, but he is not against anything that is in the Bill. What do we have? We have policies that the right hon. He is against the Bill because he has literally made up Gentleman disowns, and we have nothing to replace what he claims it says. He says that it is about privatisation— them with. We have political opportunism, distortions dressed up as arguments, and a shameful campaign to Andy Burnham rose— scare people about a Bill that, in reality, is about strengthening the NHS for the benefit of patients. Mr Lansley: All right, I will give way to the right hon. Of course, if we want to see what Labour would do, Gentleman one more time. Come on, then: let us find we only have to look at the situation in Wales. I have to out what he is against. hand a Wales Audit Office bar chart; I shall hold it up so Opposition Members can see it. One bar shows rising Andy Burnham: I will tell the Secretary of State what real-terms expenditure on the NHS in England, and the I am against. I am against the rewriting of the entire blue bar shows rising real-terms expenditure on the legal structure of the national health service to plant NHS in Scotland, while the green bar shows the rate for market forces at the centre of the system, and to pit Northern Ireland, where the rise is lower. Another bar, doctor against doctor and hospital against hospital. however, shows a very large real-terms cut in NHS That is what I am against, it is what 170,000 people spending in Labour-run Wales. Labour in Wales did not signed a petition against, and it is what the overwhelming just agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it would consensus of health professionals is against. Would the be “irresponsible” to increase NHS spending; Labour in Secretary of State not do well to listen to them for once? Wales went further, and cut spending. Mr Lansley: So now we know, Mr Deputy Speaker. It In order to see the result of that, we must look at is sheer invention. There is nothing in the Bill that performance. In England, 91% of patients are seen and creates a free-for-all. There is nothing in it that creates a treated within 18 weeks, compared with just 68% in market of that kind. The Bill means competition for Wales. In England, only 1.4% of patients waited over quality, not price. It gives patients choice—and the six weeks for diagnostic tests; in Wales, 29% waited over Labour party’s manifesto was in favour of giving patients six weeks. In Wales, Labour says it wants to insulate the choice. Competition is not being introduced to the NHS against reform. It ought to adopt it, however, NHS by the Bill; it is being channelled in the interests of because all that is happening in Wales is that the Labour patients to support quality throughout the NHS. party are, once again, putting politics before patients. 175 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 176

It is patients who should be at the heart of the NHS Mr Lansley: I was right, was I not, that the weaker —patients and those who care for them. This Bill is simply the right hon. Gentleman’s argument, the stronger the the support to a far more important set of changes, tone? My noble Friend Earl Howe answered a private which make shared decision-making with patients the notice question in the other place yesterday, and the norm across the NHS, which bring clinical leadership position is absolutely as he described it: we were right to to the forefront of the design and delivery of health and go to appeal, as the appeal demonstrated, because the care services, which make local government central to tribunal agreed that we should not publish the strategic planning for health and care, which strengthen the patient risk register. The decision of the tribunal was that it voice, and under which the NHS is open about the results took the view that we should publish the transition risk we achieve and how to improve those results so we register, but it did not publish its reasons. Given the genuinely match the best in the world. We will continue simple fact that there is considerable overlap between to work with the royal colleges, and others with an interest the strategic register and the transition risk register, I in the future of the NHS, to implement our plans, so find it extremely difficult to know what the tribunal’s that we provide the best possible care for patients. The reasons are, so we will see what its reasons are. right hon. Gentleman’s motion and speech gave no credit to the NHS for what it is achieving, but I will. Several hon. Members rose— We are proud of the services we deliver for patients: the lowest ever number of patients waiting over six Mr Lansley: I will not give way. months for treatment—[Interruption.] Labour Members Let me just make it absolutely clear that reform is do not like to listen to this, but it is the reality. Average happening and it will be supported by the Bill: nearly time spent waiting for treatment is lower than at the last £7 billion has already been saved to reinvest in front-line election. The number of patients waiting over a year for care; we have 15,000 fewer non-clinical staff; we have treatment has more than halved since the election. 5,800 fewer managers and 4,100 more doctors—since MRSA and C. difficile are at their lowest ever levels. the election, we have had more qualified clinical staff; There are more diagnostic tests—up by 300,000 over a there are 890 more midwives since the election and a year. There is more planned care, and there are fewer record number in training; we have 240 clinical unplanned emergency admissions to hospital. Some commissioning groups covering England, leading on 11,800 patients have benefited from the cancer drugs commissioning from April on up to £60 billion-worth fund, and 990,000 more people have had access to NHS of services; and the ratio of nurses to beds in hospital dentistry, while mixed-sex accommodation is down by 95%. has gone up. Labour’s motion is politics masquerading as principle, Andy Burnham: Will the Secretary of State give way? and it is synthetic anger. I would take the right hon. Gentleman’s campaign more seriously if his own leader Mr Lansley: No, because I am going to tell the right could have been bothered to turn up to his NHS rally, hon. Gentleman what he did not admit. Reform is rather than taking a Rolls-Royce to a football game. going ahead. We are delivering efficiencies across the This is empty rhetoric from an empty vessel; this is no NHS. policy, only politics; and this is a leader who treats his party’s campaign with disdain. The House should have Andy Burnham: Will the Secretary of State give way? no truck with them, and I ask it to reject the Labour motion. Mr Lansley: All right, I will give way, but the right hon. Gentleman might like to explain why in the year 5.26 pm before the election the administration costs of the NHS rose by 23% and he added more than £320 million to David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): I rise today to the administration costs of primary care trusts and make a simple point to Ministers and their supporters: strategic health authorities, but in the year since, we however acute the embarrassment of giving up on the have cut those costs. Absolutely contrary to what he Health and Social Care Bill at this stage, it will pale into said—because he was completely wrong—we are on insignificance compared with the embarrassment, never track to deliver the Nicholson challenge. We delivered mind the trauma and cost, of ploughing ahead with this £2.5 billion in savings in the first six months of this year, health reform and making it the template for health having delivered £4.3 billion in savings during the course policy for the rest of this Parliament. of the last financial year. Come on: explain that one. The Bill has achieved a remarkable feat since we contributed to the Second Reading debate. First, it has Andy Burnham: I should just point out that the taken the Government hostage. It is the political equivalent Secretary of State is trading on the successful legacy he of the Stockholm syndrome: falling in love with your inherited from Labour: the lowest ever waiting lists; the captor. The Prime Minister insists, in one breath, that highest ever patient satisfaction. Let me leave that to he must have the Bill to save the NHS and, at the same one side, however. We on the Opposition Benches have time, at Prime Minister’s questions, he insists that 95% noticed that he has not once mentioned his tribunal of the country has already had the benefit of the defeat on the NHS risk register, and all the achievements reforms that he claims the Bill will put through. he just reeled off are at risk, are they not, because of Secondly, in the real world—many miles from the this misguided reorganisation? I ask him to answer this claims of Ministers that they wanted an unprecedented point today: will he now comply with the ruling of the consensus between politicians and professionals—this Information Tribunal, publish this risk register today, Bill is without friends. Even more remarkable, and and let the public know the full truth about what he is shocking to me, is that it is a Bill that has lost friends at doing to their national health service? each and every stage of its passage through Parliament. 177 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 178

[David Miliband] It is, of course, right. The story today that senior GPs are spending four days a week coping with reorganisation Every compromise, every “concession” and every retrofit rather than treating patients is, I predict, only the first has cost the Bill coherence, cost the Bill support and step on that road. raised levels of anxiety about the Bill. The third example is accountability. If there was a The reason for that is simple: the Prime Minister, the germ of an idea in the original Bill presented by the Secretary of State and the Deputy Prime Minister have Secretary of State, it was to align clinical and financial made it their calling card to say that the choice is responsibility. In May last year he said that the key between this Bill and inertia. I know that tactic, as I question was to have written those speeches and those articles, but in “put the right people in charge”. this case the problem is that that is not true. The Leader After a year, it is completely inexplicable who is in of the Opposition and the shadow Secretary of State charge: not GPs, because they are overseen by the for Health have put forward practical proposals to greatest behemoth of them all, the national NHS achieve some of these aims that are shared across the Commissioning Board; not hospital trusts, because they House. are answerable to Monitor and the competition authorities; The Secretary of State will recognise that more reform not the sectoral replacements for strategic health authorities, is going on in the English health service than in any because they are only temporary; not the managers, other health service in the world at the moment—that because they are being sacked just before they reapply is the product of what was done under the previous for their old jobs, which now have new names; and not Government. That is perhaps one reason why it is the clinical senates, because their purpose has not yet improving faster than those anywhere else. The choice been defined. is between good reform and bad reform, and this Bill is In truth, the new system hardly deserves the title of a bad reform: it gives reform a bad name. In fact, it system at all. It is not just that people do not support threatens to set back the cause of reform for a generation, what the Government are doing, but that they simply and I want to explain why. do not understand what the Government are doing. I As amendment has been piled on amendment, the warn the House that the real danger for the NHS is a Bill has gone from being wrong to being the most perfect storm of rising costs, rising demand and opaque half-baked, quarter-thought-out shambles that the NHS and inexplicable decision-taking structures. has ever seen. I want to give three examples that go to The Government promised clarity but have delivered the heart of the issues raised by the Secretary of State complexity. They promised devolution but have had to and the Prime Minister in their speeches to launch the create the biggest quango of them all. They promised Bill. The first and most important is managing service efficiency and they have delivered bureaucracy. The change. That is most important, because everyone agrees result is that at the end of this Parliament we will once that the health service has to change to deal with the again be back in a debate that I thought we had buried challenges of demography, drug costs and medical for ever, about whether a tax-funded health service free technology, and that means changing in the way in at the point of need could deliver for the whole population which services are organised. Yet in its hatred of planning of Britain. That is the last debate we should be having, and confusion about competition the Bill makes change but it will be the product of the shambles now being at a local level not more likely but less. Why? The levers created. of change have been neutered. Clinical commissioning I believe the Secretary of State when he says he groups are too small and weak as replacements for supports the NHS passionately, but by the end of this primary care trusts, the NHS Commissioning Board is Parliament, when the structural flaws of the plan are too remote and gargantuan and, as the Palmer study of clear, he will not be around to defend it. That is the true reorganisation in south-east London shows, market danger of this misconceived and unloved Bill, and that forces on their own will not reconfigure services in a is why this Secretary of State, in his last act of kindness coherent way. to the NHS, should kill the Bill.

Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): This weekend 5.33 pm I met 80 women from Walthamstow who are desperately concerned because we do not have a sexual health Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): It is a pleasure service there, so we have very high levels of teenage to follow the right hon. Member for South Shields pregnancy and repeat abortion, as there are doctors in (David Miliband) and it was notable that his hon. and the constituency who will not provide contraceptives. right hon. Friends were listening to his words, rapt, Does my right hon. Friend agree that the changes could possibly reflecting on what they had missed out on. The make dealing with such problems harder, not easier? kernel of his argument for this side of the House appeared to be the offering of advice to us about where our party advantage lay. He will forgive me if I say that I David Miliband: My hon. Friend makes an important think we should look elsewhere for advice about where point. Far from driving the health service towards a our party advantage lies. coherent vision of the future, the Bill promises frenetic gridlock as professionals try to make the best of the bad The right hon. Gentleman was raising a voice for job they have been left by the Health Secretary. Blairite reform of the NHS, and that is a theme to which I want to return. Some opponents of the Bill can The second example is promoting efficiency. The claim the virtue of consistency. Some opponents of the Select Committee on Health stated: Bill can claim that they always opposed the development “The reorganisation process continues to complicate the push of structures in the health services that encouraged for efficiency gains.” flexibility and encouraged a focus on the patient voice 179 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 180 and on general practitioners and the wider clinical health service patient to enjoy the benefits that have community as an effective voice for patients in the previously been available on too exclusive a basis to the health service. private sector patient. With a proper, open-minded Some can claim that they have always opposed having commissioner, those benefits ought to be available, as a health service open to private and independent sector the Blairite doctrine advocated when the Labour party provision alongside the national health service provision— believed in it, to all patients, including, pre-eminently, that they have always preferred a centrally planned, the vast majority of patients who rely on the national state-provided service. The right hon. Member for Holborn health service. and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), who is not in his place, It is claimed by the Bill’s opponents that it is in favour can claim the virtue of consistency on that argument, of privatisation, but as my right hon. Friend the Secretary but the shadow Health Secretary cannot claim that of State says, there is not a single provision in it that consistency because he, like the right hon. Member for promotes privatisation. It is said to be a Bill that promotes South Shields, was once a Blairite. As my right hon. fragmentation. The service already suffers too much Friend the Secretary of State has shown with the quotations fragmentation. The Bill writes into the law an obligation he gave from the shadow Health Secretary when he was to deliver integrated, more collaborative, joined-up services. at the Department, the shadow Health Secretary used That addresses the problem that has been identified, to be an advocate of the policies that underlie this Bill. which is attributed by its opponents to the Bill. It is said The Bill will deliver effective practice-based commissioning to be a Bill that promotes unbridled competition. That —a policy that the shadow Secretary of State used to is absurd. espouse. It is not only the shadow Secretary of State, the right Andy Burnham: If this Bill simply continues our hon. Member for Leigh, who can be quoted from the policy, why does it rewrite the entire legal structure of past. The hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), the national health service over 500 pages? who is seated alongside him, has said some very useful positive things in the past. I quote from the hon. Lady Mr Dorrell: The right hon. Gentleman knows that in 2010: there is room for more than one view about the extent “I’ve always believed that there needs to be some competition to which there is a need to rewrite the full statutory and challenge in the system...Iamalso a strong champion of basis of the Bill, but that is not the issue now. The giving patients more voice and a greater say, not only over which question is how, if we went down his route, had a hospital they go to but all aspects of their treatment and care.” summit and talked for another 12 months about what I am sure the hon. Lady was speaking on behalf of her the institutional structure of the health service should Front Bench. The whole Labour party used to believe in be, that would serve the policy objective that he seeks to that. We believe in that. That is what the Bill provides. It espouse, of greater clinical engagement in commissioning. builds on the policy that the right hon. Gentleman used How would it serve the policy objective of which he says to believe in and used to advocate. He should have the he is in favour, of engaging local authorities and the courage of those convictions. wider political community in decisions that shape the future of the health service? 5.40 pm One issue that the right hon. Gentleman did not mention in his speech is the shift of public health out of Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): It is always a the relatively narrow interpretation that is implicit when pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Charnwood it is located in the national health service. Instead, (Mr Dorrell), the Chair of the Select Committee. He public health can properly be understood as being part said that Members on our side were looking raptly at of the wider range of local government. Those changes my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields do not justify some of the more ambitious rhetoric (David Miliband). Members of the right hon. Gentleman’s being used in support of the Bill but they certainly do party were looking raptly at him, wishing he was the not come close justifying the rhetoric being used against Secretary of State for Health. it. If half the things being said about the Bill by It is an important day when both Houses are discussing Opposition Members were true, I and most of my right the Health and Social Care Bill, and the Prime Minister hon. and hon. Friends, and certainly my right hon. is in America. When they meet, President Obama will Friend the Secretary of State, would not support it. remind him that he said the NHS was “something that Brits take for granted—a health care system that Dame Joan Ruddock: In answer to a recent parliamentary ensures you don’t go bankrupt when you get sick”. question I asked about waiting lists, Ministers told me The President’s stepmother said that she owed her life that they had no information on waiting lists for private to the NHS, without which she would not have been patients. How does the right hon. Gentleman think it alive to see him become President. will be possible for NHS patients to believe that their waiting times are consistent with their need for treatment There is a kind of double-speak about the Bill. If the when there are no figures to indicate what happens in Bill was so good in the first place and so necessary, why the private sector? did we need to have a pause and a rethink, and why were there so many amendments—almost 2,000? The Secretary Mr Dorrell: One of the effects of the Bill will be to of State says that the GPs are in control. If the GPs are integrate the private sector more fully in the delivery of in control, why are there commissioning support groups? public sector services in order to meet better standards Who are they accountable to? Who voted for the GPs to for the national health service patient whose services are be in control of a business dealing with public funds? If commissioned by the NHS commissioner. I should have GPs are so happy about this, why did a GP in Walsall thought the right hon. Lady would welcome the fact tell me that they are demoralised, disengaged and that there was greater opportunity for the national uninspired? Maybe because they were not consulted. 181 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 182

Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Will my not a description of the Health and Social Care Bill. hon. Friend give way on that point? The pre-legislative scrutiny was in the Secretary of State’s head, not in a draft Bill. Valerie Vaz: No, I am sorry. [Interruption.] Okay. What about my constituent Stephen Wood, who went to his local GP’s surgery only to be told that doctors Robert Flello: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. would only refer him to a consultant privately, not on My persuasive charms work. Does my hon. Friend the NHS, as he had apparently used up his budget? share the concerns of my constituents? They often find it difficult already to get a GP appointment. With GPs Mr Lansley: Rubbish. spending so much time with commissioning boards and more to come, will that not make it even harder to get Valerie Vaz: It is true. This has become personal. The time in front of a GP? NHS is an organisation in which miracles sometimes happen, which is why people are fighting to protect and Valerie Vaz: My hon. Friend makes an important save the very essence of its existence. Those who have point. He should read the front page of the left-leaning paid their taxes do not want the Bill, and the health newspapers, and he will see how much money is being professionals do not want it. From all parties, professionals spent on locums. and patients in the NHS, we can say that we oppose the The GP in Walsall said that the pace of change is too Bill, and when the NHS unravels, as it is now beginning fast. GPs are being forced into larger organisations. to, we can say, “We told you so.” I support the motion. They have no experience of managing a business model. The Secretary of State says he wants to cut the numbers 5.46 pm of managers. If the number of managers has been cut, why are the management consultants crawling all over Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I beg to move an the NHS? A group of consultants including McKinsey, amendment, to leave out from “Bill;” to end and add: KPMG and PricewaterhouseCoopers sealed a £7.1 million “declines to support the Bill in its current form; and calls for an contract with 31 groups of GPs. Pulse found that four urgent summit of the Royal Colleges, professional bodies, patients’ organisations and the Government to plan health reforms based in 10 clinical commissioning groups across England on the Coalition Agreement.” have begun to enlist commissioning support from the private sector. That was the work that the PCTs did. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), a fellow member of the Health The Secretary of State says that change is happening Committee, who talks with great knowledge and, from anyway. So why have the Bill? The Secretary of State the manner in which she handles herself in the Committee, says that Monitor did not have a duty to promote is clearly very committed. The primary concern of us all competition. So why did the Government not approve in this debate is the future of the NHS; I do not the amendment tabled by Lord Clement-Jones that question anyone’s motives as far as that is concerned. sought to designate the health service as That is why I was particularly pleased when the right “a service of general economic interest”, hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) opened the taking it out of EU competition law? That was not debate by reassuring us that we would have a non-tribal, accepted. non-partisan debate, and that is also why I feel rather The Government said that the role of Monitor is like saddened that the debate so quickly degenerated once that of Ofgem, Ofwat and Ofcom. David Bennett said: again into tribalism, which I am sorry to say will seriously undermine our chances of coming forward “We did it in gas, we did it in power”. with a rational solution to the intractable problem of Who are the shareholders? Look at Centrica. Its what to do with the Bill. shareholders include Bank of New York Mellon, the Government of Singapore, the Government of Norway, Although the positions have become further entrenched the state of California, the Government of Saudi Arabia, by the debate, I am concerned about its outcome, because and Goldman Sachs. The shareholders of the NHS are ultimately we will not defeat the Bill. This is not Second the people of Britain—but for how long? Reading, when Members could independently make up their mind on the issue outside the tribal mix. We The Secretary of State says he wants integration, but should debate the matter in a manner that might assist the Bill will effectively repeal the integration that started the Government to reflect on where we are. I hope that with the Health and Social Care Act 2001. Torbay is a ultimately they will withdraw the Bill, which is what classic example of that. What about the cost, which is many of us want them to do. As far as I can see, the Bill £1.2 billion and counting? cannot be defeated by either House, so the power, and the fate of the Bill with it, lies pretty much entirely in Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Will the hands of the Government. the hon. Lady give way? Although I understand that the Secretary of State is obliged to advance the arguments in the way he did Valerie Vaz: I am sorry, but I have nearly finished my today, I am concerned. Therefore, if we are to advance speech and must press on. as I propose by withdrawing the Bill and, as set out in There was a chorus of disapproval from professionals the amendment, calling a summit of those who want to when the White Paper was published, as they wanted take forward a lot of what I think is good in the Bill and more information. As Rogers and Walters say in the in the coalition agreement, I am not sure how that could sixth edition of “How Parliament Works”, if there is be achieved on the basis of what we have heard so far. pre-legislative scrutiny, Ministers have less political capital Clare Gerada, the chair of the Royal College of General at stake and changes are not seen as defeats; the scrutiny Practitioners, this morning talked about withdrawing of a Bill in draft gives higher quality legislation. That is the Bill in order to stabilise the NHS and ensure that we 183 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 184 go forward without basing the future of the NHS on from the previous Government’s failings on letting private ideology, but we of course need to do that while ensuring sector contracts, and there are issues, which I shall take that everyone is working together. up with the Secretary of State, in that regard. I agree with the Secretary of State’s approach to the The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the issue, which is that no change is not an option and that debate calms down and becomes less tribal, so that change and reform are of course required in the NHS, people can speak more freely and the Government can but I think that it is better that we take this forward on a reflect on the fact that the Bill has less support than it more consensual basis than the Government have achieved did when it started. Support is ebbing away, and opposition so far. to it is increasing even at this stage. I already have only a little time left, so let me say something about the Secretary of State himself, because Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): Will my hon. his commitment to the NHS has been questioned in Friend give way? today’s debate. Let me make it clear to my right hon. Friend—in this regard—that, as I said on Second Reading, Andrew George: I cannot at this stage. I am sorry I believe that he approaches the issue with the very best about that. of intentions, and I would never question the sincerity of his commitment to the NHS over many years, which I urge the Government to reflect on this debate and I highly respect, along with his knowledge of the subject; on the opposition in the country, to withdraw the Bill our disagreement is on the judgment of the legislation. I and to allow such a summit to go ahead. do not know whether that metaphorical embrace will damage his reputation among his Conservative colleagues, but I hope that it will not. 5.53 pm There are many failings in the current legislation. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the hon. Member Andy Burnham: I am listening very carefully to the for St Ives (Andrew George), and the House would do hon. Gentleman, but may I push him a little? He says well to listen to what he says. The Secretary of State that the Bill cannot be defeated, because of parliamentary may feel that he can bluster his way through the debate, arithmetic, but what is his take on the points that his but people out there—our constituents—are listening. right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old When I became a Member almost 25 years ago to the Southwark (Simon Hughes) made? Is it not the hon. day, I made the point that the health of the people is the Gentleman’s understanding that the Lib Dem conference highest law, so even if we cannot deal with the Bill in withdrew its permission for his peers to vote for the this debate, we have three hours in which we can send a Bill? Does that not therefore take permission away from message. Although I came into the Chamber to support Liberal Democrat MPs to support it? the motion in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), I have listened to Andrew George: The right hon. Gentleman is aware what he has said and to what the hon. Member for that the conference was advisory on the issue. The St Ives has said, and I am quite content to back the motion before it actually congratulated our noble Friends amendment and to ask for an urgent summit—and for in the House of Lords on having achieved significant the trade unions to be involved as well. amendments to the Bill. They have made the Bill less bad but not good enough to make it acceptable to Mr Burrowes: Will the hon. Lady give way? myself—or indeed to many of my colleagues. The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that Liberal Joan Walley: No, I will not. Democrat Ministers and others cannot vote against the Government, so it is not very helpful of him to try to I agree with theright hon. Member for Charnwood tease out such a situation. The pressure on those who (Mr Dorrell), who chairs the Health Committee, that are not so constrained has, however, been lifted. some aspects of the Bill are very worthy, particularly those on public health, and we do not want to lose Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): For the purposes them, but four issues need urgent clarification, and I of clarification, would the summit that the hon. Gentleman’s hope the Minister will address them when he replies. amendment puts forward include the trade unions? If First, why are my constituents not entitled to know not, why not? what is on the risk register? What is there to hide? Why can we not have it laid before us when we are making Andrew George: The summit should be as inclusive as important decisions about the future of the NHS? I am possible—so that there is no sense of it being exclusive. quite content for there to be service changes, but not The professional bodies and patient organisations in structural, top-down reform, which the Prime Minister the amendment would be included as well, so I hope himself, in one of his commitments before the general that the hon. Gentleman is reassured on that point. election, said he was not going to introduce. I congratulate my colleagues in another place on The key issue for the House is whether the NHS will what they have achieved, but underlying that is a concern be subject to the full force of domestic and EU competition about the role of the private sector. Serco in Cornwall law, and that has not yet been clarified. The Government provides an important out-of-hours service, but there maintain that it will not, but the changes brought about are serious concerns about how the service is being run, by the Bill make certain that it will. In any event, it is and I have raised concerns about that over the past year. not in the Government’s gift to decide, because the issue The Secretary of State has pointed out that the contract will be decided in the courts, so I genuinely believe that was let under Labour, but even so we can learn lessons we are entitled to clarification on that issue—[Interruption.] 185 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 186

[Joan Walley] That is why we are reforming the NHS. Just as this Government are committed to dealing with the deficit I will not give way on that point. It is absolutely so that future generations will not be burdened with essential that the Government, not the law courts of debt racked up yesterday, we must be committed to this country, determine NHS policy. reforming the NHS so that future generations can enjoy Secondly, what safeguards are there against private an NHS free at the point of delivery regardless of the companies using loss leaders to replace NHS services ability to pay. I am sure that that is what everyone in this and then, once the NHS service has been eliminated, House is committed to. maximising profits by reducing quality? We have heard By placing GPs rather than management in control from the Secretary of State on that, but once the service of patient treatment, we will not only drive up standards is eliminated, the private companies that come in will of care, allowing patients access to more treatments surely have a free hand. The Government say that there under any qualified provider scheme, but ensure that will be no competition on price, but private companies recurrent cost savings are made to be reinvested in the will still be able to use loss-leader tactics by overloading NHS to cope with the rising demand. Above all, this is a bid with quality for the specified price, so we must an evolutionary measure. My right hon. Friend the have regard to the real concerns about that. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) touched on the Thirdly, how will the Government stop cherry-picking Blairite doctrine. It was a pleasure that we had Professor in practice? If they attempt to exclude private companies Julian Le Grand come to the Health Committee, where from bidding for a particular contract, will they not he said that if Tony Blair were still Prime Minister and face court action, and in those circumstances will not he were advising him, he would have urged him to services be put on hold while the courts deal with how undertake this measure. It is great to see the right hon. NHS care is to be provided? Member for South Shields (David Miliband) in his seat. Finally, again when the Minister replies— It would have been fascinating to see what would have happened if he had become leader of the Labour party. Mr Simon Burns: In 10 minutes? I am sure that we would not have seen the rank tribalism that we have seen from those on his Benches today. Joan Walley: Yes, in 10 minutes, because we need time to sort out the NHS. What will the Government do Andy Burnham: We are supporting the amendment. about foundation trusts once they become unsustainable— once they have been undermined by cherry-picking and Chris Skidmore: I am talking about the right hon. by loss leaders? Member for South Shields, not the hon. Member for There are huge issues, our constituents’ health is at St Ives (Andrew George). stake, and this is an important debate, one in which the Professor Julian Le Grand stated on 28 February: Government need to take account of what we are “With respect to the NHS bill, it is important that even those saying so that Parliament can have a say in how the who generally prefer to rely upon their intuitions should avoid NHS goes forward. muddying the waters by accusing the bill of doing things that it does not, like privatising the NHS; and that all those involved 5.58 pm should acknowledge the peer-reviewed evidence demonstrating that its provisions with respect to public competition…are likely Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): It is an honour to improve patient care.” to speak in this debate. More hours have been given to debating this Bill than I thought that I should set out the context of our any other during this Session. Despite Labour’s message, discussion. Various Members on both sides of the House which seems to be opposition for opposition’s sake, we have talked about demand, in particular, and it is important are gradually learning what its policy will be for the next to look at that question. Most importantly, we must general election. It is interesting that at a rally in Manchester admit that the NHS needs to adapt under new pressures. last week, the right hon. Member for Leigh stated, in In 2001 the NHS treated 12 million patients. Today that front of his union faithful, figure is 17 million, so in other words the number of “And I will make you a promise today—if I am the health people accessing the NHS has risen over the past decade secretary after the next general election I will repeal this bill.” from 101 per minute to 124 per minute, resulting in the According to the Opposition, this is the greatest cost of drugs and prescriptions rising by more than 65%. reorganisation in history. Yetthe Bill will save £4.5 billion straight away and then £1.5 billion recurrently, year on Mr Anderson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? year, thereafter. Chris Skidmore: No, I will not. The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) did not give way to me, I am Mr Burrowes: All our constituents will be listening afraid, so I am not feeling too charitable. intently to the debate and will hear that following the Despite the coalition Government’s added investment health inequalities that have grown under the previous of £12.5 billion over the course of this Parliament, Government, the Opposition will oppose and repeal demand will only rise further, with 1.6 million people legislation that imposes a duty to tackle those inequalities. turning 65 in the course of this Parliament and many What will they think of that? living into their 80s and beyond. The number of 85-year- olds will double by 2030. The NHS is facing a perfect Chris Skidmore: We have already heard one Labour storm—an ageing population combined with a rise in Member say that she welcomes the new measures on chronic conditions, including an increase in diabetes, health inequalities, so it is a shame that the legislation which will take up as much as 25% of the health budget. could be repealed in its entirety. 187 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 188

Last week, Labour Members committed themselves That is not surprising, I suppose, because, after all, to re-establishing primary care trusts and strategic health when Aneurin Bevan brought to this House the Bill to authorities—to reconstituting the NHS as if time stood create the national health service, the Conservatives still, with middle-level management holding the reins. It voted against the creation of the national health service. is remarkable that Labour is not the party of the NHS Ted Heath accepted it as part of the national consensus. patient but has become the party of the PCT, the SHA That consensus was breached by Margaret Thatcher, and, above all, the NHS manager. but even she never targeted the national health service. “The national health service is safe in my hands”, she Grahame M. Morris: On the hon. Gentleman’s point said. It is all the more shameful that the Government about efficiency, costs and so on, I draw his attention to are legislating in this way, because the Tory posters in an article in The Guardian today which says that the the 2010 election featuring the current Prime Minister cost of replacing with a locum GPs who are away on specifically featured the NHS—the Tories knew that clinical commissioning duties is £123,000 a year, while that was their vulnerable point. It is now even more so, one clinical commissioning group has reported that and it will destroy them. 15 local doctors are each spending two days a week This Government are the most right-wing Government away from their surgeries. How is that an efficient use of that the country has had for three quarters of a century. resources? They bring back the social neglect and the social damage of the era of Neville Chamberlain. They are creating mass Chris Skidmore: We are reinvesting the billions of unemployment, and particularly youth unemployment. pounds saved on managers into front-line care, and that They are harming our schools and destroying Sure is why we have already seen over 5,000 new doctors Start, whose creation, of course, they also opposed. working on front-line services this year. I understand They are taking the police off the streets and provoking where the hon. Gentleman is coming from in terms of crime on the streets. They are inflicting irreparable the political spectrum, but I believe that he is referring harm on the universities and on higher education. They to a TUC press release that The Guardian published in are harming pensioners, even down to the niggling theft full. from them of money from the winter fuel payment. In a previous debate, the right hon. Member for They are creating homelessness. They are doing damage Leigh said that he would put a cap on private practice in that it will take a generation to repair, even if they are “single figures”. That would take the NHS backwards thrown out at the next general election—and all without from its current position, and it is an arbitrary cap a mandate of any kind. based on ideology, not on what is in the best interests of All this damage to my constituency and to every NHS patients. Nor is it in the interests of some of our constituency in the country, including those of Government best-loved hospitals. Dr Jane Collins, the chief executive Members, is being done with the cynical complicity of of Great Ormond Street hospital, has said: the Liberal Democrats. Without them, none of this “The lifting of the private patient cap would allow us as a would be possible. Last night, I had the distasteful Foundation Trust to treat more patients, but also, through experience of refreshing my memory of their manifesto re-investment, to help more NHS patients.” by reading it again, and there is nothing in it to justify So Labour has set its face against Great Ormond Street what they are participating in today and will be as this hospital: well done! Bill proceeds through the House of Commons. We need a constructive debate about what needs to be The Liberal Democrats’ spring conference last weekend done for patients in the 21st century. The right hon. was a degrading spectacle. They even trundled on the Member for Leigh should stop using the shroud-waving nation’s favourite elder sister, Shirley Williams, to try to language that he used today in stating: convince people that this appalling Bill and their complicity in it are tolerable. What a contrast that is with their “Time is running out for the NHS.” facile promises in opposition, when they promised In December last year, he said that there were 72 hours everything because they knew that they would not have to save the NHS. What happened? He should beware, to deliver. Now they have to deliver and they are damaging above all, of becoming the boy who cried wolf. I believe everything that they touch. They could save the national that this Bill will improve the NHS. I sincerely urge him health service by their votes this evening. If they do not, to base his argument not on intuition but on facts, and, the nation will remember and the nation will never for the sake of patients, not to turn his back on reform forgive. that he once believed in and should go back to believing in.

6.10 pm 6.5 pm Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Like Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): If all Government Members, I am absolutely committed there are three letters in the English language that to the principles of the NHS: that it should be free at resonate in practically every household in this country, the point of need, irrespective of the ability to pay, and they are NHS. One need say no more than “Save the available to all those who need it. The NHS saved my NHS” for the people of this country to know what one life when I was 24-years-old. It was there for me and I is about. The NHS is this country’s most precious always intend to be there for it, for my constituents and national institutional asset. It is free at the point of use others who need it. I say to Opposition Members that and available to all. It has saved lives, it has prolonged on Saturday morning I spent two and a half hours in lives, it has improved the quality of lives, and it has Dunstable market talking to more than 400 of my done all those things by the million—and now this constituents on a wide range of issues, and not a single Government are in the process of destroying it. person raised concerns about the national health service. 189 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 190

Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Will the hon. To move on to mental health and other NHS services, my Gentleman give way? biggest town, Leighton Buzzard, has a 16-bed unit for mental health patients. Many of those beds are empty Andrew Selous: I will make a little progress. at the moment and could be used for step-up, step-down care or intermediate care. By giving commissioning I also say to Opposition Members that the GPs of powers to doctors and fully integrating mental health Bedfordshire are thoroughly behind these proposals. Dr with other NHS services, the Bill will open up the Paul Hassan, a long-standing Dunstable GP, will be the possibility of those beds being used for the people of leader of the clinical commissioning group in my area. Leighton Buzzard and the surrounding area. He is an excellent GP who has the interests of his If Opposition Members are serious about orthopaedics, patients at heart and he will do an extremely good job. which is a massive issue for the NHS, they will know that the standard of care varies widely and that we can Karl Turner: The hon. Gentleman says that he met do better. I have discussed this issue with the Chair of 400 people in his constituency, not one of whom mentioned the Health Committee and my right hon. Friend the their opposition to the Bill. Has he had any communication Minister of State. Professor Tim Briggs, who is the from any health service professional who has concerns about clinical director at the Royal National Orthopaedic the Bill? I and many Opposition Members have received hospital, and others have useful suggestions in this area numerous e-mails and a great deal of correspondence that the Government are prepared to listen to. from such people, as well as from constituents. I say to Opposition Members: look at the record so far. Ten thousand more people have had access to Andrew Selous: I am aware of one GP in my constituency cancer drugs. There are 4,000 more doctors and 900 more who has concerns about the reforms. The overwhelming midwives in the NHS. There are 15,000 fewer managers majority of GPs are thoroughly behind them. I find it and administrators, and all the savings from that are troubling that Opposition Members do not trust our going back to the front line, where they are needed by nation’s GPs, with their wisdom, good sense and the hard-working staff of the NHS. Opposition Members commitment to patients, to do the right thing by their should look at the money.The Government are committed patients. They will look at the powers in the Bill and use to spending £12.5 billion more on the NHS in England, them for the good of their patients where it is wise and unlike in Wales where, under Labour’s stewardship, the appropriate to do so. NHS is being starved of funds. I have to tell Opposition Members that the clinical We heard terrible stories about health inequalities commissioning group in Bedfordshire has already from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton established a new team to deal with emergency calls (Sir Gerald Kaufman), who spoke before me. I wonder from elderly people in care homes. That has resulted in whether he has looked at clauses 22 and 25 of the Bill, a 40% reduction in hospital admissions and has enabled which for the first time put in law the duty to deal with vulnerable elderly people to be treated at home. That is health inequalities. My goodness, that is needed, because just one example of the sort of thing that we will see under the previous Government health inequalities got when doctors make use of the powers that they are worse and were in a state comparable with Victorian given in the Bill. times. I will cite a few areas of the NHS in which, if Clause 116 will prevent discrimination in favour of Opposition Members think honestly, they will recognise the private sector. We have listened to a lot of concerns that there were problems when they left office. I will use about the private sector. Perhaps Opposition Members three brief examples from my constituency. As we heard have forgotten about the private sector treatment centres, from the Chairman of the Health Committee and others, which were paid £250 million for operations that they one of the important things that the Bill will do, under did not perform. Clause 116 will ensure that the higher part 1, is to integrate health and social care. I am tariffs that have been paid to private sector providers extremely grateful to the Minister of State, Department cannot happen in future. of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford The involvement of local authorities in public health (Mr Burns), who has been looking at the issue of is another vital thing that did not happen under the delayed transfers of care at Luton and Dunstable hospital. previous Government. If Opposition Members think The new structures that will be introduced under the honestly about what local authorities can do fully to Bill, with the full integration of health and social care, involve schools, children’s centres and care homes in the will be helpful in that area and will deal with the serious national health service, they will agree that there are issue of delayed transfers of care. real possibilities. My plea to Opposition Members is to look at the Mr Sanders: One of the problems that my constituents facts, to look at what is in the Bill, and to look at have is that they have experienced integrated health care the improvements that have happened already, such as in Torbay since 2003, but it is having to be dismantled the greater number of doctors and midwives and the because of the Bill. It is difficult to explain to my £12.5 billion extra that is going into the NHS, under constituents why what they have taken for granted and this Government. enjoyed under existing legislation requires this big Bill.

6.17 pm Andrew Selous: All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that in my area the current structures are not dealing Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): adequately with that issue. The powers in the Bill are I will speak in favour of the Government dropping this permissive and I am hopeful that they will help. truly awful piece of legislation. 191 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 192

Before I do so, I will say a few words about my every time the Government’s case has been knocked constituent, Dr Kailash Chand, who began the e-petition down. The King’s Fund, the respected health think-tank, against the Bill, which has reached 174,000 signatures. in its review of NHS performance since 1997, clearly Kailash has been a GP in my area for 27 years. He has showed dramatic falls in waiting times; lower infant been awarded an OBE for his work and in 2009 he was mortality; increased life expectancy across every social named north-west GP of the year. He has dedicated his group; cancer deaths steadily declining; infection rates life to public health. At times he has spoken out against down, and in mental health services, access to specialist Government policy, whoever has been in charge. His help, which is considered among the best in Europe. motivation in creating the e-petition was solely his love Again, I put it to the Government that they have no for and belief in the NHS. We should be grateful for justification for the revolution that the Bill brings about. such public servants. I am delighted that he is here to The Government’s other justification has been that listen to this debate. the NHS has too many managers, yet their reforms create a structure so confusing that, when an organogram Mr Simon Burns: So that everyone fully understands of the new structure was published, it became a viral hit the background, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that on the internet because it looked so ludicrous. What do this same doctor wants to be a Labour MP, has been the experts in the King’s Fund say about this? The appointed by the leader of the Labour party to review myths section about the Bill on its website says: Labour party policy on older people, and has worked “If anything, our analysis seems to suggest that the NHS, for the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne particularly given the complexity of health care, is under-rather (John Healey) in a research capacity? than over-managed”.

Jonathan Reynolds: The Government are just not Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): During the Bill’s passage, willing to listen to the people who will be affected by the it has struck me just how vulnerable my constituents Bill. Kailash is not alone in opposing it. If I read out the will be to doctors who are not as good as many of those name of every organisation that opposes the Bill, I who currently serve them well. One of our opportunities would run out of time. in Newham with a decent PCT was to deal with doctors who did not provide the right care. Is my hon. Friend , Mr Burns: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? like me, concerned about the vulnerability of many of our constituents if the Bill is passed? Jonathan Reynolds: No, sit down and listen for once. It is clear that the majority of non-biased, objective Jonathan Reynolds: I agree with my hon. Friend. If opinion is against the Bill proceeding. Never in the field the Bill is passed, perhaps one of the biggest changes of public policy have so many opposed so much and will be to the relationship between doctor and patient. been listened to so little. Every time a patient is not referred for some sort of specialist treatment, they will wonder whether that is on Should the Government not be asking themselves clinical grounds or because their GP has one eye on the this: if the Health Secretary cannot convince the people budget. Whatever the basis for those fears, GPs will be who he wants to devolve power to, and if the Deputy in a difficult position, and because NICE guidance will Prime Minister cannot convince his own party members no longer be compulsory, the problem will be compounded to support the Bill, maybe—just maybe—there is not when people compare their experience with that of that much going for it? The Health Secretary cannot even others, using the internet or other means. visit an NHS hospital, so low has his reputation sunk. However, the most worrying aspect derives from the As has been said, the people who oppose the Bill, stories that we hear from parts of the country where whether the royal colleges or Opposition Members, do individual GPs might have a financial interest in the not oppose all reform. Of course, NHS services will services that they now commission. Such a relationship have to change over time, particularly in the provision would not only destroy the trust at the heart of the of specialist services. The Labour Government introduced system, but provide perverse incentives for how it might reforms, which used the private sector to the advantage develop in future. of the NHS. The Bill does the opposite and uses the NHS for the benefit of the private sector. The problem Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): is not reform, but these reforms. To say that anyone who Government Members have said that the Government opposes the Bill is against all reform is crass and simplistic. will spend an extra £12.5 billion on the NHS. Yet Let us please put an end to the nonsense that the University hospital in Coventry must make further cuts reforms are just an evolutionary approach following of £28 million this year. The Government boast about what has happened in the past. If that were the case, the increase in the number of doctors, but it takes seven would there be an unprecedented groundswell of opinion years to train a doctor. Who, therefore, was responsible against them? Once the Bill is passed, the primary care for training those doctors? The Labour Government. trusts and the strategic health authorities will be gone, and clinical commissioning consortia will be responsible Jonathan Reynolds: My hon. Friend is, as ever, correct. for the whole NHS budget. Local authorities will take He knows that the problem that all parts of the health public health, and Monitor and the NHS Commissioning service face is that they have been given money to justify Board, not the Department of Health, will be responsible claims from Ministers to Parliament, but they must for the health system. That is a fundamental, top-down ring-fence some of it to pay for the reorganisation— restructuring of the NHS, and no one wants it. £16 million in the case of my PCT. To justify that revolution, the Government started by The story of the Bill is the story of British politics at rubbishing the success of the NHS. It began with the its absolute worst. We have a weak and unpopular cancer survival rates and carried on from there, and measure, opposed by nearly everyone, pushed through 193 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 194

[Jonathan Reynolds] The Bill also represents a significant generator of future over-regulation and, to some extent, a perpetuation by two out-of-touch party leaders because they are of micro-management. There is no essential difference worried that they will look weak if they perform a between a Government imposing AWP and telling everyone U-turn. Even worse, whatever Government Members what to commission and when, regardless of local might say, we all know that, had the Downing street circumstances, and instructing everyone to have a Darzi operation been up to speed from the beginning of this clinic, as the Labour party did. Government—if, for instance, they had had a policy We are considering a strange spectacle—a sort of team in the centre of Government—the Bill would paradox. We genuinely have gradual improvement of never have got through. After all, why, after spending so legislation, but simultaneously there is increasing much time and so much money convincing the public professional detachment and disillusionment. That is that they could trust the Tories on the NHS, and after possibly because people view the Bill as big government; making a commitment that there would not be a further as a centralising measure. The right hon. Member for top-down reorganisation of the NHS, have the Government South Shields (David Miliband) was right to point out embarked on a deeply unpopular and unwanted top-down that a huge quango had been set up— “the biggest reorganisation of the NHS? The Bill has confirmed quango in the land”, in the words of my hon. Friend the every swing voter’s nagging fear—you simply cannot Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who is trust the Tories on the NHS. now a Minister. We have the Bill for two reasons: the vanity of the There are alternatives. Life without the Bill is possible. Secretary of State for Health and the naivety of the However, with or without it, the gap between professional Prime Minister. Neither is a good enough reason for and political opinion is fatal. The gap between ideology proceeding. It is time to drop the Bill. and evidence is fatal. The gap between what the Prime Minister thinks he needs—not to look weak—and what 6.24 pm the NHS needs, which is a two-way dialogue, is also fatal. We must find some way of bridging those gaps. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I was cut off when My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) I previously spoke on the subject. Perhaps that was welcome, has tried to find a particular way. because I was quoting a strangely prophetic entry in Spin and propaganda will not get any of us out of Chris Mullin’s diary. It was a conversation with a Labour this. The reality will be played out in the next year and Member, whom he describes as a “mild-mannered” the subsequent year in hospitals, surgeries and homes. Yorkshireman—surely an oxymoron—who said in 2005: Spin will not help because, across the land, reality will “I think we will lose the next election. The Tories will come to kick in—and reality has a horrible habit of trumping spin. some sort of understanding with the Lib Dems and we’ll find we’ve opened the door to the market in health and in education. And when we protest they will reply, ‘But this is your policy; you 6.29 pm started it.’” Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I That is the story of our debate. want to speak in support of the motion, which notes the Critics of the Bill often fail to realise how far Labour e-petition and declines to support the Bill in its current had exposed the NHS to all sorts of market forces such form. As has been said but deserves repeating, the as EU competition law, encouraged and subsidised the Conservative-led Government have no democratic mandate private sector, and imposed “any willing provider” in all for the Bill; quite the opposite, given the Prime Minister’s sorts of places where it might not have been appropriate. promise that Essentially, Labour set up the building blocks for a “with the Conservatives there will be no more of the tiresome, market system. meddlesome, top-down re-structures” The Bill continues that process. To put it bluntly, no of the NHS. Yet this reckless and unnecessary top-down one in this House regards the Bill as anything but risky. reorganisation will cost £3.5 billion, which could be Even the Whips, who are normally the most cheerful spent on patient care. about legislation, can barely summon a smile when Already in my local area and many others, patients dragooning Members into voting for it. Why? There is a are losing services, waiting longer and receiving poorer simple explanation. It is the combination of the biggest treatment than before. Salford primary care trust has ever organisational upheaval and the biggest ever financial ended its active case management service for people pressure: the £20 billion Nicholson challenge. with long-term conditions—the service had been both The Bill is also considered risky because the confidence popular and effective. NHS budget cuts have meant that of staff and the public is low, concern is justifiably high, a community matron service was ended in a local area. and, to quote Donald Rumsfeld, there are too many The Select Committee on Health recently dealt with “known unknowns”—about the interaction with EU the impact of the NHS reorganisation in its report on law, how GPs can commission themselves legally, and public expenditure—my right hon. Friend the Member what the law actually means. Nigel Crisp, the former for South Shields (David Miliband) quoted it. The chief executive of the NHS, recently described the Bill report concluded: as “confused and confusing”. “The reorganisation process continues to complicate the push There is also a lack of trust. To some, the thrust of for efficiency gains...it more often creates disruption and distraction the Bill seems essentially unchanged. As the Secretary that hinders the ability of organisations to consider…effective of State warned us in 2009—I repeat his words in case ways of reforming service delivery and releasing savings.” people missed them in the earlier intervention: Cuts are having a direct effect on treatment. A staff “Organisational upheaval and reform do not seem to correlate member of the local branch of the Parkinson’s Disease well.”—[Official Report, 19 November 2009; Vol. 501, c. 225.] Society told me recently that NHS cuts mean that GPs 195 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 196 and pharmacists are switching to cheaper brands of to complain about the implementation issues they are drugs for patients with Parkinson’s, many of which are already finding. As I said, the GP I quoted supported much less effective. One person was admitted to hospital. the idea of GPs being more involved with decisions She became ill following a switch to a cheaper, less about patients, but he now thinks that the Bill is effective medicine. The hospital staff told her that she “simply a mask for a cost cutting exercise…a way to deal with the should be “firm with her GP” and insist on the more NHS on the cheap. A way of farming out support systems…e.g. expensive brand. clinical support, into the private sector.” The Bill brings competition into the NHS at a level He says: that is unhealthy and unwanted. The PIP breast implants “More money will be taken out of the NHS and put into the saga showed us the dangers for the NHS of a vast private sector.” increase in private provision when regulation of medical The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew products for use in surgery is so poor. In January, Selous) asked us to trust the wisdom of our GPs. That is 14 consultants, GPs and public health experts wrote a a damning indictment by a Salford GP, and one that I letter to The Times about the expansion of private believe is echoed by GPs up and down the country. provision and the issues arising from PIP implants. Trusting the wisdom of my local GP, I urge hon. They warned that the Health and Social Care Bill Members to support the motion. “provides much less protection for patients should their provider fail than is available to people booking package holidays”. 6.35 pm With PIP implants and private surgery, there was a Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): I rise tonight strong marketing sell to patients of the benefits of to oppose the motion and the amendment. The motion surgery but little information about risks, and little or is clear on the e-petition, on calling on the Government no interest in aftercare. That is an important warning. to drop the Health and Social Care Bill, and on declining We know that there are potential health issues with to support the Bill in its current form. I see no mention metal-on-metal hip implants, yet there will be pressure of the risk register, yet when we debated it several weeks on patients waiting for a hip or knee replacement to go ago the shadow Secretary of State did not want to talk for private surgery to avoid the waiting lists that we about it; he wanted to talk about the Bill. I shall come know are building up. to the very confused position of the Opposition on this The Bill risks creating a two-tier NHS and a return to issue. the long waiting lists experienced under Conservative I will obviously not support the amendment—that Governments in the 1990s—the Government have already will come as no great surprise to the hon. Member for watered down guarantees on NHS waiting times. I St Ives (Andrew George)—but I agree with his reference recall meeting a patient in 1997 who was waiting up to to patients’ organisations. Such references have been two years for vital heart surgery, yet more recently in my missing from the speeches of Opposition Members. I constituency I have met people whose lives have been would prefer a reference to patients and service users, saved in a matter of days by the rapid diagnosis and because my first point is that the voice of patients has treatment of cancers. not been heard. Those are not my words, but those of A number of local GPs have written to me calling on somebody who gave evidence to the all-party parliamentary the Government to drop the Bill because they feel it group on mental health last week. We have not heard undermines the bond of trust between doctor and patient. the voices of patients in the debate so far—[Interruption.] One GP told me: Opposition Members are welcome to stand to correct “The reforms are being made on the cheap. GPs are being me, but I have heard no mention from them of the asked to do the work of the PCTs with half of the funding and all words and views of patients. of the blame when problems arise. The Bill drives a wedge between primary and secondary care.” Karl Turner: I am obliged to the hon. Lady for giving That GP actually supports the theory of clinicians way. The mere fact that more than 170,000 people have being given more input and supports a reduction in signed the e-petition surely must speak volumes to her. bureaucracy, but says that the Bill “does the exact opposite”because it introduces new layers of bureaucracy Nicky Morgan: If the hon. Gentleman wants to talk such as the clinical senate. He says that people coming in about maths or numbers— “are doing so at different levels of understanding…leading to confusion.” Karl Turner: I am not talking about maths. He feels that, ultimately, Nicky Morgan: We could talk about the number of “it will be the patients who will suffer…no one has asked the people who have taken part in the Royal Colleges patients what they want.” petitions.

Bill Esterson: My hon. Friend describes a GP in her Karl Turner: I am talking about the 170,000 people constituency, but a GP in mine described his concern to who signed the petition. What are you talking about? me. He said that he is there to be a doctor and wants to care for patients, and that he does not have the expertise Nicky Morgan: Well, 175,000 have signed the petition, to be a manager. That is the overwhelming concern of but there are nigh on 60 million people in this country. his colleagues around the country. Does she agree that that is the danger of that part of the Bill? Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Mr Turner, do not shout over the Chamber. Either Barbara Keeley: I very much agree. Only quite recently intervene or listen to the points that are being made. have GPs expressed such concern. I have never known You do not have to agree with them; you just have to be GPs to come to their MPs in numbers, as they are doing, quiet. 197 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 198

Nicky Morgan: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The shadow Secretary of State talked about trying to After many, many weeks on the Health and Social Care be constructive. I am unclear whether he supports his Bill Committee, there is no danger of the hon. Gentleman own motion. Is he calling for the Bill to be dropped or agreeing with any of the points that I make, but that will for a conversation? This reflects the position of the not stop me making them. Royal College of General Practitioners, which says that My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire it now wants to work with the Government to implement talked about mental health. Those who spent time on the Bill, having previously opposed it. That is because the Public Bill Committee will know that I am particularly the people in the NHS are beginning to recognise that involved and interested in mental health, and I hope implementation is critical if we really care about patient that we will have a debate on mental health in the care and service users. There has been talk about how Chamber soon, but what has struck me in discussions people in the House have stopped listening. I suggest of the Bill is that mental health service users want to be that it is the Opposition who have stopped listening. I involved in decisions about the commissioning of their am fed up with receiving repeat e-mails. When I reply, services. They have that opportunity in the Bill through making this point and trying to engage in a debate, all I the health and wellbeing board, HealthWatch, the clinical get is another standard e-mail telling me about privatisation commissioning groups, the involvement of the voluntary and how the NHS will not exist in its current form. That sector, and, as hon. Members have said, the integration is not correct and not fair on the patients who rely on of health and social care services. The Secretary of the NHS. State talked about shared decision making. It is incredibly As my hon. Friend the Member for South West important that that is allowed to flourish under the Bill. Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) said, implementation is My next point—a damning and depressing one for a already happening in many parts of the country, and Member of Parliament to make—is the misinformation that is to be welcomed. In Leicestershire, I have three that has been perpetuated about the Bill. Tonight, we excellent clinical commissioning groups and a health heard the shadow Secretary of State say that time is running and wellbeing board being set up. I salute the public out for the NHS. An hon. Member said that the shadow health professionals in Leicestershire who are working Secretary of State spoke in December of our having hard on implementation, the secondary care providers, 72 hours to save the NHS, and another said that their the patient participation groups and everybody else constituents are worried about the services that will be who has taken part. The trouble is that implementation on offer. All of that is scaremongering, and it is unfair is being hampered by this ongoing political debate. I on those who do not have the time, capacity or inclination have a real feeling of groundhog day every time I come to read the Bill. We need to talk about the reality. in and speak on this. We are going round and round in circles, and I repeat that the people who are missing out Grahame M. Morris: On the charges of scaremongering, are the patients and service users. Loughborough has is the hon. Lady aware that the George Eliot hospital in taken the difficult decision to move our walk-in centre, Nuneaton is engaged in conversations with two private but the GPs have taken that decision, and although I sector providers—Serco and Circle—on taking over did not agree with it, they are clear that it will result in that provision? In my 30-odd years involved in the better urgent care services, and they are spending more NHS, I have never known that to happen. money on them. I am willing to trust their judgment. Members want to talk about the vote of the RCGP.It Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his is interesting to note that out of 97,000 professionals, point and the measured way in which he made it. That is only 4,700 have taken part in the debate on the Bill. welcome in the debate on the Bill. As a midlands MPs, I That should tell us something. We need to get on with am aware of what is happening in Nuneaton, but it is the Bill now. not my constituency so I will refrain from saying too much. I will say only that the hospital management have asked in other providers because they are concerned 6.42 pm and want to ensure the best possible care. Is that not John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): It is what we want? good to follow the hon. Member for Loughborough Grahame M. Morris: They are private providers. (Nicky Morgan). Hers was an heroically loyal attempt to fill time on the Government Benches. But she is Nicky Morgan: That could be the voluntary sector or wrong. The Government have lost the confidence of the the community sector. They are all private. If someone NHS to make further changes, and they have lost the has a physio appointment, it could be with a private trust of the British people to oversee those changes. provider. At the end of the day, we want the best care Why no apology from Ministers? Why no apology to for patients and constituents. That is what we all want. the 1.4 million NHS staff for the last wasted year of chaos, confusion and incompetence? Why no apology Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): The hon. to the millions of patients who are starting to see Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) will be services cut and waiting times get longer? And why no aware that the George Eliot hospital is on the edge of apology to the British people for breaking the promise my constituency and serves my constituents. There are in the coalition agreement to stop the top-down six people on the shortlist of people it is talking to—six reorganisations of the NHS that have got in the way of people who have asked to be spoken to. It is wrong to patient care? imply that the George Eliot has gone out and spoken to only two private providers. The rest are all NHS providers. Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I was contacted last week by a constituent of mine, Ruth Murphy, who Nicky Morgan: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for told me that she had waited more than 40 weeks for an clarifying that. operation that had then been cancelled four times. 199 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 200

She asked me if that was what we had to expect from a would lead to the collapse of the Government’s system Tory NHS. That is the kind of thing that my right hon. for managing risk. That did not happen when the Friend is referring to. Labour Government were forced to release the risk register for the third runway at Heathrow. Nor will it John Healey: Sadly, Ruth Murphy’s experience is lead to the routine disclosure of Government risk registers, more and more common. By the end of last year, the because the tribunal’s decision, like the Information number of people having to wait more than 18 weeks to Commissioner’s decision before it—both saw the transition get into hospital for the operation they needed was up risk register—was based on my argument that the scale 13% since the previous year. and speed of these changes was unprecedented, and therefore that the public interest in their being disclosed Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Like many in the was exceptional. House, the right hon. Gentleman will have received a lot The Government have dragged out their refusal to of correspondence from professional bodies, such as release this information for 15 months. That is wrong. the British Medical Association, the Royal College of They have now lost in law twice. This is not a political Midwives, the Royal College of Nursing, the Chartered argument but a legal and constitutional argument. It is Society of Physiotherapy and many, many others, and about the public’s right to know the risk that the they all say that these changes will lead to an unsafe Government are running with our NHS, and about foundation for the NHS. Does he feel that they all want Parliament’s right to know, as we are asked to legislate change, but the right change, and the right change is not for these changes. what will be delivered by the Government here? Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Will my John Healey: The hon. Gentleman is right. One of right hon. Friend give way? the great tragedies here is that the Government have squandered the good will and confidence of NHS staff John Healey: I will not, as I have less than a minute that is necessary to make the changes to the NHS that it left. must make. This health Bill will make making those changes more difficult, not easier. Release of the transition risk register is now urgent, in the last week before the Bill passes through Parliament. The Government could have built on the golden It will also be important in the two or three years ahead, legacy and the great improvements that patients saw as this reorganisation is forced through the NHS. I say under 13 years of Labour investment and reform: hundreds to Ministers this evening: do the right thing. Respect of new hospitals and health centres; thousands more the law, accept the court’s judgment and release the doctors, nurses and specialist staff; and millions of register immediately and in full, so that people and patients with the shortest ever waits for tests and treatments. Parliament can judge for themselves. Instead, we have a Tory-led Government, backed by its Lib Dem coalition partners, who have brought in the chaos of the biggest reorganisation in NHS history; 6.50 pm wasted billions of pounds on new bureaucracy; and betrayed our NHS with a health Bill that will, in the Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Let me follow on long run, break up the NHS as a national health service from what the previous speaker said about the legacy of and set it up as a full-blown market ruled, in time—for the Labour party by expressing to him my concern the first time—by the full force of competition law. about happened to the hospital in my constituency. “We went through the process of meeting patients’ needs.” Everything about this NHS reorganisation has been Well, one would think that if a Government were meeting rushed and reckless. This has been a master class in patients’ needs, they would speak to them to ask what misjudged and mishandled reform—implementing before they would actually like. That would be the normal legislating, and legislating before being forced to call a thing to do in meeting patients’ needs: one would want pause to listen and consult on the plans already in hand. to hear their views. Did the previous Secretary of State This health Bill was introduced last January. What was speak to the people of Burnley and ask what they a very bad Bill is still a bad Bill. Make no mistake: this wanted within that process? Not a one. Did the previous legislation will leave the NHS facing more complex Government, in their programme to “meet patients’ bureaucracy and more confusion about who decides needs”, ask the GPs what they would like? Not a one. what and who accounts for what, and mired in more cuts and wasted costs for years to come. What did “meeting patient’s needs” mean to the people of Burnley? It meant the closure of our accident Risk has been at the heart of the concern about these and emergency unit and our children’s ward, and their changes from the outset. There has been a lack of transfer 15 miles away to Blackburn. Hon. Members confidence and a lack of evidence, yet the Government will recognise from what happened that the strategic are ready to manage the risks of introducing the biggest-ever health authority and the primary care trust, which reorganisation in NHS history at the same time as the made those decisions after taking advice from a gentleman biggest financial squeeze since the 1950s. These risks called Sir George Alberti—hon. Members will also were the reason for the growing alarm among the recognise from the name that he is not well known in public, professionals and Parliament in the autumn of Burnley—did not understand what the people of Burnley 2010, when I made my freedom of information request wanted. The strategic health authority and primary for the release of the transition risk register. care trust transferred our A and E unit, which supported Last Friday the courts dismissed the Government’s 250,000 people, if we include Pendle and Rossendale, efforts to keep secret the risks of their NHS reforms. and a children’s ward supporting the same number of Apocalyptic arguments were made in court, in defence people to Blackburn, without one comment accepted of the Government, about how releasing the register from the people in my constituency. That was an outrage. 201 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 202

[Gordon Birtwistle] have seen real improvements locally and real successes in Tower Hamlets, with the highest childhood vaccination We campaigned vigorously to get that stopped. I held rates in London, improved health for those with chronic a march of more than 1,000 people through Burnley. diseases such as diabetes, and reduced mortality rates What happened? Our local MP at the time—hon. Members from cancer and heart disease, although there is much will probably notice that after 77 years, the colour of moretodo. the MP in Burnley has changed, and it has changed The Labour party has always been at the forefront of because of this—[Interruption.] A lot longer than you reform where it is needed and where it would benefit think. What happened then was that our MP was glad people on the ground. As my hon. Friends have already to support a change that meant taking a vital service pointed out, we are talking about the difference between from our town and relocating it 15 miles away. People good reform and bad reform. My party will always were having to travel 15 miles to Blackburn after having support reform that is good for patients, but the heart attacks or suffering major trauma in car crashes. Government’s plans do not offer that kind of reform. An example of a lady—[Interruption.] If the hon. I have had thousands of letters and e-mails from Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) constituents— wants to ask me a question and apologise for what Labour did, I am happy to take it. No? Fine. One lady Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): Thousands? had a car crash in the Burnley hospital car park—her foot slipped off the pedal and she crashed her car. She Rushanara Ali: Yes, thousands. I have had thousands was in sight of the urgent care centre that we have of letters and e-mails from constituents—members of now—an excuse for an A and E unit. What did they do? the public, as well as professionals—who oppose the They did not treat her within 100 yards of the accident; Bill. they brought an ambulance all the way from Blackburn to take her there and sort out her problem. Jim Shannon: Will the hon. Lady give way? Are Labour Members telling me that that is really good, when there is a chance that in future the people of Rushanara Ali: I am sorry, but I will not be able to our town will be able to have a say in what they want? give way. Decisions about the health service will be taken by the Those people are opposed to the Bill. They have been GPs and the people they represent. If I have a problem I campaigning and have joined the 170,000 people who will go and talk to my GP. I cannot talk to the PCT, and have signed up to oppose the Bill. They oppose it I certainly cannot talk to the SHA, which sits in its because they know that it will damage health care. This landed glory in the centre of Manchester, so what is Bill will damage life chances; it will destroy the NHS. wrong with the Bill? We cannot allow what has been happening to continue, so I disagree with my hon. In Tower Hamlets we had the first clinical commissioning Friends in down here on the Front Benches below the group calling on the Government to drop the Bill, led Gangway. We cannot delay; we need to get on with it. by the respected Dr Sam Everington, who said: We need to sort out the problems that we have. We “Your government has interpreted our commitment to our cannot continue with what we have now. patients as support for the Bill. It is not.” There is a young lady called Rachel living in my It is shameful that the Government carried on trying to constituency who suffers from myalgic encephalopathy, use his name in support of the Bill. Those in the clinical or ME. She has a friend in Blackburn who has the same commissioning group are concerned about the unnecessary problem. The friend in Blackburn was given treatment bureaucracy that the changes will create and about the by the PCT, because it was a decent PCT. When Rachel impact on patient care. They know that top-down reforms asked the PCT that represents Burnley for the same and restructuring will detract from their ability to care treatment to help her, she was turned down—for £3,000. for their patients. That is what they have said. I hope I went with her husband and her parents to speak to the that the Government will listen today, because in areas people at the PCT and beg them to fund her treatment—I such as my constituency, where child poverty is higher even had a letter from her doctor—yet the two ladies we than elsewhere—half the children in my constituency spoke to cruelly turned us down. Her doctor was keen live in poverty—and where there is an inextricable link to do it; he will still do it in Rachel’s case. I support the between poverty, health and life expectancy, it is vital Bill; let us get on with it. that we have a health service that delivers for people on the ground. This Bill will not do that—Ministers know that, so they should do something about it. [Interruption.] 6.55 pm Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): I Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I welcome today’s motion on the Health and Social Care do not need any help chairing this debate; what I need is Bill, because I know how precious the NHS is. We must for Members to listen. If they want to have a private do everything possible to protect it. I am proud of the conversation they can go outside and have it, and then fact that the Labour party founded the NHS. In 1997, come back in for the vote. when we took over from the previous Government, we had to rebuild a health service that was under-invested Rushanara Ali: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. in and turn it into a world-class health service, which is This Bill is effectively a form of backdoor privatisation what it is today. We reduced waiting times and invested of the NHS, with up to 49% of beds going to private in creating a health care system that delivered for patients. patients. That will hurt my constituents and ordinary On our watch, there were 33,000 fewer deaths from people up and down the country. That is why the heart disease each year, and we achieved the highest Government need to think again. The Bill undermines ever level of patient satisfaction. In my constituency we the very principle of the NHS and the inspiration 203 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 204 behind it. It highlights the fact that we cannot trust the having the courtesy to accept that his Labour Government Conservatives—or, now, some of the Liberals—with blew hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ cash the NHS. on paying private providers for treatments that they Waiting times are expected to go up. Already, between failed to carry out. [Interruption.] Opposition Members May 2010 and December 2011, they have increased by should put away their synthetic anger for a moment and 9%, and that will get worse. The Government need to accept that, thanks to the Bill, expensive private sector take these issues seriously and start listening to people. pay-offs will be a thing of the past. When they were in In the east end, inequality continues to be a major government, they were enriching the private sector and concern, and we need to work together to reduce it. I creating an army of fat-cat NHS managers while failing reiterate the shadow Health Secretary’s request that we to support patient care. work together on this. The Government should listen, and they should drop the Bill. Paul Uppal: Opposition Members often try to portray us as callous and uncaring about the NHS, but is not As my hon. Friends have done, I appeal to the reform absolutely essential if we want an NHS that is Government to think again, to think about the people free at the point of delivery for our children and of this country and to think about the people like those grandchildren? in my constituency who desperately need an NHS free at the point of delivery and free for those who need it. Those people do not need the marketisation and Priti Patel: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I competition that are going to damage the health service. mentioned front-line patient care in all our constituencies. I call on the Government to drop the Bill. This is about ensuring that resource goes to the front line, and that it is taken away from the back office, the bureaucracy and the managers. 7pm Labour’s opposition to the Bill is shallow. Every time Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): As in the many other we have these debates—[Interruption.] We have had debates that we have had on this Bill, there is a strong 13 years of Labour. Witham was once a Labour town, sense of déjà vu here today. Opposition Members grind but my constituents have all woken up to the fact that, out the same old arguments over and over again to under Labour, there was no resource going to the front attack the Government. They spin the same misleading, line of the NHS. Now, we are working across the parties scaremongering lines about privatisation. They proclaim to ensure that the Bill goes through Parliament, so that the end of the NHS and talk down the medical professionals we can bring that much-needed front-line care to my and patients who will be empowered by the Bill. They constituents in Witham town. Labour’s opposition to continue to support the bureaucracy that drains vital the Bill is completely shallow, and every time we have resources away from front-line care, certainly in my this debate, its arguments are exposed as being ever constituency. [Interruption.] As he did the last time we more synthetic and opportunistic, with little connection debated this, when I mentioned that my constituency to reality. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green and had very little front-line local NHS care, the hon. Member Bow (Rushanara Ali) talked about Labour’s commitment for Copeland (Mr Reed) arrogantly sneers— to the NHS. Just as history shows that Nye Bevan introduced the legislation to establish the NHS, it will Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): At you. show that this Secretary of State, through the Bill, has saved it for the patients who rely on it. Priti Patel: No, at my constituents, actually. The Bill will bring much-needed front-line NHS resources to my 7.5 pm constituency. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I want to pay We have heard the shadow Secretary of State recycle tribute to all the hard-working individuals who work in the same speech from the Dispatch Box like a broken the national health service, and to Dr Éoin Clarke and record stuck in the 1970s. The Opposition have nothing Dr Clive Peedell, who have been supportive of the sincere to say and, as in every other debate on the Bill, coalition, for highlighting the dangers of the Health my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has rebutted and Social Care Bill. I suspect that this will be my final all their opportunistic smears and given a robust account opportunity to speak up on the Bill. I understand that of the Bill and the benefits that it will bring. He has also there are only about seven days before its Third Reading ensured that the NHS budget is being increased. debate in the House of Lords. It terrifies me that the Opposition Members would have done well to engage Bill, which I have studied intently during its 40 Committee constructively on the Bill, instead of spending the past sittings, is going to become law. The Secretary of State two years siding with the smear campaigns run by the is introducing a new health system. It is a system that no left and its trade union paymasters that seek to misinform one voted for, and it will be unrecognisable in comparison the public, play with their emotions and frighten them. with the NHS that cared for an entire population from In particular, we hear the Opposition complain about the cradle to the grave. the involvement of the private sector in delivering health care, but it is this Government who are getting to grips Jim Shannon: Does the hon. Gentleman share the with the spiralling private finance initiative costs that concerns of many Members on the Opposition Benches— are crippling many NHS trusts in England, for which and, I suspect, many people outside the House—that the Labour Government were entirely to blame. the Government will create a two-tier health system I find it astonishing that the shadow Secretary of consisting of those who can afford to pay and those State can come to the Dispatch Box, week in and week who cannot? Does not that fly in the face of what the out, and bleat on about the private sector without NHS was originally set up to do? 205 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 206

Grahame M. Morris: That is precisely our fear, and I set out in the Bill. What we should be doing is talking hope to develop that argument in a moment. about how to create a national care service, which The national health service was established in 1948, would be the next and logical step for the NHS. On against the background of the devastation following a behalf of everyone in this country, my party, the Labour world war. Men and women with a vision for a better, party, created the NHS and is now fighting to save it. fairer society set in law the guiding principles and values We are building a coalition so to do. We will fight for of our NHS. Let us not forget that, during the post-war the values, principles and future of the NHS well beyond period, this country faced a bigger deficit as a proportion the passage of this Bill. of our national wealth than we are facing today. 7.11 pm Bill Esterson: Will my hon. Friend give way? Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab): The British public, as I think everyone here Grahame M. Morris: I am afraid not, as I have very acknowledges, has a great care and concern for the little time. national health service. That is not an idle superstition, Those people knew that the value of money would be as Conservative Members sometimes imply, but probably worthless if it did nothing for ordinary people. Nye arises because we all interact with the health service Bevan stated: when we are at our most vulnerable and at pivotal “No longer will wealth be an advantage, nor poverty a disadvantage. moments of our lives. Perhaps it happens when we are Healthcare will be provided free of charge, based upon clinical having our children or when a parent is dying or when need and not on ability to pay”. we are ill and frightened. It is therefore unfortunate, to In contrast, this Government seem to see any money put it mildly, that no Government Members have been spent by public sector providers as somehow wasteful prepared seriously to engage with the depth of public unless it is trickled through their friends in the private concern about this Bill. sector who can turn a profit. I am concerned that their Let me quote a joint editorial, written by the editors whole philosophy is antagonistic towards the public of the British Medical Journal, the Health Service Journal sector. I was outside the Lib Dem conference on Saturday, and Nursing Times—publications that originally supported lobbying the delegates. I hope that Lib Dem MPs will this Bill, to which fact I draw the Secretary of State’s support the motion tonight. attention. They describe the Bill as “poorly conceived, badly communicated, and a dangerous distraction Andrew Selous: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? at a time when the NHS is required to make unprecedented savings.” Grahame M. Morris: No, I will not. That is the consensus within the NHS. Ministers talk about the GPs involved in clinical commissioning groups. The Health Secretary’s problem is that no one voted Of course GPs are moving forward and trying to engage for these reforms. He has no mandate, and 24 organisations with the changes—because they want what is best for are ranged against them. He has cited Clare Gerada of their patients, not because most of them support the the Royal College of General Practitioners as his new Bill in principle. ally, but nothing could be further from the truth. She has said that, just because the GPs are being forced to I have spoken about opinion within the NHS. As man the lifeboats, it does not mean that they agree with some Members know, my mother was a woman who sinking the ship. They really have no alternative. gave her life to the NHS. She came to this country in the 1950s as a pupil nurse, and she ended her career working It has been suggested that Labour left the NHS in a in a mental hospital just outside Huddersfield in West dreadful state. Let us not forget that when the Labour Yorkshire. She was part of that generation of men and Government were elected in 1997 only 34% of those women who built our NHS in the years after the second surveyed in the British social attitudes survey said that world war. In preparing for this debate and thinking they were satisfied with the NHS. That was the lowest about how to cut through the bluster, allegations, counter- level since the survey was started under the Tories in allegations and politicking, I thought to myself, “Perhaps 1983. By 2009, however, public satisfaction in the NHS I should say what my mother would want me to say”. had more than doubled, to 64%. So, from that starting-point She was not a politician; she was not the head of a royal of cutting bureaucracy, decentralising powers and increasing college; she was not a manager; she did not work for a clinical commissioning, we now seem to have an end-point, glitzy Westminster think-tank: she was just an ordinary which is becoming clearer. It seems to be the NHS woman who was very proud indeed to say that she ripped asunder by competition and private provision. worked for the British NHS. My mother would have This Bill is about establishing competition and entry- wanted me to say that the NHS is special and that from points for the private sector at every level of the NHS. its earliest years it has been about change and adaptability. In essence, it is a Trojan horse for privatisation. She would have wanted me to say, too, that politicians [Interruption.] People are saying that this is not true, so should handle it with thoughtfulness, not engage in let us look at clause 163, as amended by the Lords, party political games, but give the debate the care and whereby for NHS hospitals and foundation trusts, up to thought that she always gave her patients. 49% of their treatments can be set aside for private I have to reinforce the point about the specialness of fee-paying patients. That must surely put NHS patients the NHS because part of the Secretary of State’s narrative, at the back of the queue. as this year has worn on, is that the NHS is somehow In conclusion, Labour Members are keen to form a broken, and only his Bill can fix it. Well, we have heard coalition with progressive Members who recognise the that the Commonwealth Fund says that the NHS is one damage that these so-called reforms are likely to do to of the world’s leading health care systems for quality our health service. We fervently oppose the reforms as and value for money, and we know that it had the 207 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 208 highest satisfaction ratings ever at 72%. Even the Secretary We are thus presented with a Bill that is based on a of State said on Second Reading that on a number of bizarre sort of life support—the arrogance of the coalition indicators, leadership. “including mortality rates from accidents and self-harm, equity Now we know that the doctors, the nurses, the midwives, and access to health care—NHS leads the world”.—[Official the health visitors, the paramedics, the cleaners, the Report, 1 February 2011; Vol. 522, c. 606.] porters, and the scientific and technical workers will do This is far from a health care system that is broken. their very best with this Bill if it becomes law. That is what Clare Gerada was saying this morning: if it becomes My Labour Front-Bench colleagues and I need no law, they will do their very best, but why should they reminding of how special the health service is and how have to see an already discredited Bill on the statute we should respect the people who work in it at every level. book? Why should they have to see more bureaucracy, We have spent the past year going up and down the which is what the Bill will mean, and why should they country, shadowing workers in the NHS. We have met have to see billions of pounds wasted at a time when the radiotherapists in Wirral, physiotherapists in Northumbria, health service is under unprecedented financial pressure? ambulance crew in Cambridge, mental health nurses in Government Members have sought to denigrate those Rochdale, cancer nurses in Birmingham, hospital porters who oppose the Bill by saying that their opposition is in Leeds, paediatricians in Bristol and midwives in merely party-political. Of course it is not: we are proud London. These were different people working at different to be part of a coalition of concern about the Bill. places at different levels, but from every visit, we heard the same abiding message—“Our NHS is not for sale.”. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (David Miliband), my hon. Friend the Member for The second point that I am sure my mother would Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), my right have wanted me to make is that from its earliest years hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton the NHS has always been open to change and improvement, (Sir Gerald Kaufman), my hon. Friends the Members as I said. Workers are not opposed to change. Why for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) and for Worsley would workers in the NHS be opposed to change? It is a and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), my right hon. Friend service where people and science interact. Of course the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) people are different first thing in the morning from how and my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and they are when they go to bed. Of course NHS workers Bow (Rushanara Ali) spelt out our concern about the are able to deal with change. No one needs to tell a Bill. It is extraordinary that we can proceed while the nurse’s daughter that there have always been things in Government are still refusing to reveal the risk register. the NHS that could have been improved. There is concern throughout the NHS about the The Labour party is not opposed to change. It was fragmentation that will result from the Bill. Government our willingness to change and reform that drove down Members say that we are scaremongering—[HON.MEMBERS: waiting times to unprecedentedly low levels. Some of “Youare.”]—but private sector companies such as Humana the things we tried were so radical that some of us could and Capita are already advertising their willingness to not vote for them, but it is no discredit to my right hon. take over GPs’ commissioning powers on their websites. and hon. Friends that they were willing to try every The NHS does not belong to the Secretary of State, lever they could to bring down waiting times and provide and it does not belong to the Deputy Prime Minister. It a service for the people who voted us here. belongs to the people of Britain who built it after the war. The NHS is not for sale, and I urge the House to Nicky Morgan: Will the hon. Lady give way? support the motion.

7.22 pm Ms Abbott: Time is against me, I am afraid. The final thing that ordinary health service workers The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon would wish me to say is that if anything has exemplified Burns): I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for the unfortunate practice of politicians of saying one Witham (Priti Patel), who observed in her vigorous and thing and doing another, it is the frequency and vehemence punchy speech that there was an element of déjà vu in with which the Government decried top-down the debate. reorganisations when they were in opposition. In 2006, I was delighted to listen to the speech of the right the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), then hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband). As I Leader of the Opposition said: listened to it, and to the speech of the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), I reflected on how “So I make this commitment to the NHS and all who work in it. No more pointless reorganisations.” odd changes in political fortunes are. Those two were the über-Blair reformers, but it was clear from their In 2007, the then shadow Health Secretary said: speeches—both thoughtful in their different ways—that “The NHS needs no more pointless organisational upheaval”. they had turned away from their reforming zeal. I can In 2009, still as Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. only put that down to “what a difference a leadership Member for Witney said: election makes”. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for “But first I want to tell you what we’re not going to do. There will be no more of those pointless re-organisations”. Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) on another good and compelling contribution. I also congratulate my hon. Friends the Then, the coalition agreement of 2010—I do not want Members for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), for South to touch on private grief here for Liberal Democrat West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), for Loughborough Members—said: (Nicky Morgan) and for Witham, as well as the hon. “We will stop the top-down reorganisations of the NHS that Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle). It seems that have got in the way of patient care.” in his part of the world they call a spade a spade. 209 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 210

[Mr Simon Burns] communities. Thirdly, they will reduce bureaucracy so that money—£4.5 billion of it between now and 2015—can I must also mention the speech of the hon. Member be saved and reinvested in front-line services. Those are for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), which was at times the basic premises and that is the basic ethos of the Bill. fanciful, that of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Not once during the speech of the shadow Secretary North (Joan Walley), that of the right hon. Member for of State, and not once during the speeches of any of his Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman), which was right hon. and hon. Friends, did we hear a single answer passionate but, I fear, misguided, and that of the hon. to the question of what they would do. I do not know Member for Stallybridge—[HON.MEMBERS: “Stalybridge!”] how many Members saw the right hon. Gentleman I mean the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde being interviewed on “Newsnight” by Jeremy Paxman (Jonathan Reynolds). I am afraid that I am from the two weeks ago. Some of us live in fear of that experience, south. while some of us come to enjoy it. Five times during I was disappointed that the hon. Gentleman did not that brief one-to-one interview, Mr Paxman asked the answer my question about the political allegiance of Dr right hon. Gentleman “What would you do?” and answer Chand, whom he prayed in aid, given that Dr Chand came there none. That was because the right hon. has had aspirations to become a Labour candidate. Gentleman is prepared to criticise and try to scare Indeed, I think he even had aspirations to fight the seat people in order to win votes, but he is not prepared to that the hon. Gentleman fought, so it was very generous confront, in a realistic and meaningful way, the challenges of the hon. Gentleman to mention him. facing the NHS and the way in which it must move Let me make clear to the House that no party has a forward. monopoly on caring for the NHS. We all care for the What we need is less carping, less criticism, and more NHS passionately, and I find it distressing when Opposition constructive engagement. When the right hon. Gentleman Members seek to misrepresent the position by accusing says in his flowery way that he is prepared to engage in us of trying to privatise it. Let me tell them that this all-party discussions there is a hollowness in his claim, party, my party—this Government, the coalition because he has no policies to discuss, and can identify Government—will never privatise the NHS, and let me no positive way in which to resolve the problems of the tell my hon. Friends to reinforce that message. Clause 1 NHS and enable it to evolve to meet the pressures to of the Bill gives the Secretary of State a duty to provide which it is subject. a comprehensive health service, and subsection (3) gives This Bill, which has been discussed at length in this a commitment—just as Nye Bevan did in his original House and in another place, is the Bill that will move Act—that it will be free at the point of use. the NHS forward and enable it to meet the challenges of Let me tell Opposition Members that what they are an ageing population and an escalating drugs spend. I saying is scaremongering, that it is unfair, and that it is a urge my hon. Friends to reject the motion and to reject gross distortion of the facts. Let me also tell them that the Liberal Democrats’ amendment if it is pressed to a shroud-waving does not do them any credit. Pulling out vote, because neither is in the interests of the health examples that have no basis for proof and are simply service or those of the country. intended to misguide and mislead the public is a disgrace— Question put, That the amendment be made. The House divided: Ayes 260, Noes 314. Andy Burnham: Will the Minister give way? Division No. 488] [7.29 pm Mr Burns: No, because I have no time. AYES I urge hon. Members to reflect— Abbott, Ms Diane Brown, rh Mr Gordon Abrahams, Debbie Brown, Lyn Andy Burnham: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Brown, Mr Russell Mr Burns: No, because I have no time. I have only Alexander, Heidi Bryant, Chris five minutes. Ali, Rushanara Buck, Ms Karen Allen, Mr Graham Burden, Richard The right hon. Gentleman was seductive in his speech. Anderson, Mr David Burnham, rh Andy He came across as trying to be eminently reasonable by Ashworth, Jonathan Campbell, Mr Alan saying that he did not want this to be a party political Austin, Ian Campbell, Mr Gregory football. I must say to him, however, that it is he and his Bailey, Mr Adrian Campbell, Mr Ronnie friends who have turned the NHS into a party political Bain, Mr William Caton, Martin football, and I must say to them that the NHS is too Balls, rh Ed Chapman, Mrs Jenny precious to be turned into a party political football Banks, Gordon Clark, Katy simply for the purpose of trying to gain votes. Barron, rh Mr Kevin Clarke, rh Mr Tom Bell, Sir Stuart Clwyd, rh Ann Our reforms will help to prepare the NHS for the Benn, rh Hilary Coaker, Vernon future, making it more balanced and better suited to the Berger, Luciana Connarty, Michael demands of the 21st century so that it has a long and Betts, Mr Clive Cooper, Rosie healthy life based on its founding principles. First, our Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cooper, rh Yvette reforms will give patients more choice, enabling them to Blears, rh Hazel Corbyn, Jeremy choose where to go, see who they want to see, and Blenkinsop, Tom Crausby, Mr David influence the kind of services that they want in their Blomfield, Paul Creagh, Mary communities. Secondly, they will give doctors more Blunkett, rh Mr David Creasy, Stella freedom to commission care for their patients, so that Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cruddas, Jon they can shape the NHS around the needs of their local Brennan, Kevin Cryer, John 211 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 212

Cunningham, Alex Huppert, Dr Julian Pearce, Teresa Spellar, rh Mr John Cunningham, Mr Jim Irranca-Davies, Huw Perkins, Toby Straw, rh Mr Jack Cunningham, Tony James, Mrs Siân C. Phillipson, Bridget Stringer, Graham Curran, Margaret Jamieson, Cathy Pound, Stephen Stuart, Ms Gisela Dakin, Nic Jarvis, Dan Pugh, John Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Danczuk, Simon Johnson, rh Alan Qureshi, Yasmin Tami, Mark Darling, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, Diana Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Thomas, Mr Gareth David, Mr Wayne Jones, Graham Reed, Mr Jamie Thornberry, Emily Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Helen Reeves, Rachel Timms, rh Stephen Davies, Geraint Jones, Mr Kevan Reynolds, Emma Trickett, Jon De Piero, Gloria Jones, Susan Elan Reynolds, Jonathan Turner, Karl Denham, rh Mr John Jowell, rh Tessa Riordan, Mrs Linda Twigg, Derek Dobbin, Jim Joyce, Eric Robertson, Angus Twigg, Stephen Docherty, Thomas Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robertson, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Keeley, Barbara Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Vaz, rh Keith Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Kendall, Liz Rotheram, Steve Vaz, Valerie Doran, Mr Frank Khan, rh Sadiq Roy, Mr Frank Walley, Joan Dowd, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Roy, Lindsay Watson, Mr Tom Doyle, Gemma Lavery, Ian Ruane, Chris Watts, Mr Dave Dromey, Jack Lazarowicz, Mark Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Weir, Mr Mike Dugher, Michael Leech, Mr John Sarwar, Anas Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Durkan, Mark Leslie, Chris Seabeck, Alison Whitehead, Dr Alan Eagle, Ms Angela Lewis, Mr Ivan Shannon, Jim Williamson, Chris Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Sharma, Mr Virendra Wilson, Phil Efford, Clive Long, Naomi Sheerman, Mr Barry Winnick, Mr David Elliott, Julie Love, Mr Andrew Sheridan, Jim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Ellman, Mrs Louise Lucas, Caroline Shuker, Gavin Wishart, Pete Engel, Natascha MacShane, rh Mr Denis Simpson, David Wood, Mike Esterson, Bill Mactaggart, Fiona Skinner, Mr Dennis Woodcock, John Evans, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Slaughter, Mr Andy Wright, David Farrelly, Paul Mahmood, Shabana Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wright, Mr Iain Field, rh Mr Frank Malhotra, Seema Smith, Angela Tellers for the Ayes: Fitzpatrick, Jim Mann, John Smith, Nick Greg Mulholland and Flello, Robert Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Owen Mr Adrian Sanders Flint, rh Caroline McCabe, Steve Flynn, Paul McCarthy, Kerry Fovargue, Yvonne McClymont, Gregg NOES Francis, Dr Hywel McCrea, Dr William Adams, Nigel Brine, Steve Gardiner, Barry McDonagh, Siobhain Afriyie, Adam Brokenshire, James George, Andrew McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Aldous, Peter Bruce, Fiona Gilmore, Sheila McDonnell, John Alexander, rh Danny Buckland, Mr Robert Glass, Pat McFadden, rh Mr Pat Amess, Mr David Burley, Mr Aidan Glindon, Mrs Mary McGovern, Alison Andrew, Stuart Burns, Conor Godsiff, Mr Roger McGovern, Jim Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burns, rh Mr Simon Goggins, rh Paul McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Bacon, Mr Richard Burrowes, Mr David Goodman, Helen McKechin, Ann Baker, Norman Burstow, Paul Green, Kate McKenzie, Mr Iain Baker, Steve Burt, Lorely Greenwood, Lilian McKinnell, Catherine Baldry, Tony Byles, Dan Griffith, Nia Meacher, rh Mr Michael Baldwin, Harriett Cable, rh Vince Gwynne, Andrew Meale, Sir Alan Barclay, Stephen Cairns, Alun Hain, rh Mr Peter Mearns, Ian Barker, Gregory Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hamilton, Mr David Michael, rh Alun Barwell, Gavin Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hamilton, Fabian Miliband, rh David Bebb, Guto Carmichael, Neil Hanson, rh Mr David Miliband, rh Edward Beith, rh Sir Alan Carswell, Mr Douglas Harman, rh Ms Harriet Miller, Andrew Benyon, Richard Cash, Mr William Harris, Mr Tom Mitchell, Austin Beresford, Sir Paul Chishti, Rehman Havard, Mr Dai Moon, Mrs Madeleine Berry, Jake Chope, Mr Christopher Healey, rh John Morden, Jessica Bingham, Andrew Clark, rh Greg Hendrick, Mark Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Binley, Mr Brian Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hepburn, Mr Stephen Morris, Grahame M. Birtwistle, Gordon Clegg, rh Mr Nick Heyes, David (Easington) Blackman, Bob Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hillier, Meg Mudie, Mr George Blackwood, Nicola Collins, Damian Hilling, Julie Munn, Meg Blunt, Mr Crispin Colvile, Oliver Hodge, rh Margaret Murphy, rh Mr Jim Boles, Nick Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Murphy, rh Paul Bone, Mr Peter Crabb, Stephen Hoey, Kate Murray, Ian Bottomley, Sir Peter Crockart, Mike Hood, Mr Jim Nandy, Lisa Bradley, Karen Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kelvin Nash, Pamela Brady, Mr Graham Davey, rh Mr Edward Horwood, Martin O’Donnell, Fiona Brake, rh Tom Davies, David T. C. Hosie, Stewart Onwurah, Chi Bray, Angie (Monmouth) Howarth, rh Mr George Osborne, Sandra Brazier, Mr Julian Davies, Glyn Hunt, Tristram Owen, Albert Bridgen, Andrew Davis, rh Mr David 213 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 214 de Bois, Nick Hunter, Mark Opperman, Guy Streeter, Mr Gary Dinenage, Caroline Hurd, Mr Nick Ottaway, Richard Stride, Mel Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Stuart, Mr Graham Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen James, Margot Patel, Priti Stunell, Andrew Dorries, Nadine Javid, Sajid Pawsey, Mark Sturdy, Julian Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike Swales, Ian Drax, Richard Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Joseph Percy, Andrew Swinson, Jo Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire Swire, rh Mr Hugo Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Phillips, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, Christopher Teather, Sarah Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel Thurso, John Elphicke, Charlie Kirby, Simon Pritchard, Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Eustice, George Knight, rh Mr Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Tomlinson, Justin Evans, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi Randall, rh Mr John Tredinnick, David Evans, Jonathan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Truss, Elizabeth Evennett, Mr David Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Turner, Mr Andrew Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tyrie, Mr Andrew Fallon, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Uppal, Paul Farron, Tim Leadsom, Andrea Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Vaizey, Mr Edward Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Field, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Hugh Vickers, Martin Foster, rh Mr Don Leigh, Mr Edward Rogerson, Dan Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Fox,rhDrLiam Leslie, Charlotte Rosindell, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles Francois, rh Mr Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rudd, Amber Walker, Mr Robin Freeman, George Lewis, Brandon Ruffley, Mr David Wallace, Mr Ben Freer, Mike Lewis, Dr Julian Russell, Sir Bob Watkinson, Angela Fullbrook, Lorraine Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rutley, David Weatherley, Mike Gale, Sir Roger Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura Webb, Steve Gauke, Mr David Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Wharton, James Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant Wheeler, Heather Glen, John Loughton, Tim Sharma, Alok White, Chris Goldsmith, Zac Luff, Peter Shelbrooke, Alec Whittaker, Craig Goodwill, Mr Robert Lumley, Karen Shepherd, Mr Richard Whittingdale, Mr John Gove, rh Michael Macleod, Mary Simmonds, Mark Wiggin, Bill Graham, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Willetts, rh Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Maude, rh Mr Francis Skidmore, Chris Williams, Mr Mark Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Miss Chloe Williams, Roger Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Williams, Stephen Green, Damian McCartney, Jason Smith, Julian Williamson, Gavin Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Karl Smith, Sir Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Soames, rh Nicholas Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soubry, Anna Wright, Jeremy Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wright, Simon Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Spencer, Mr Mark Yeo, Mr Tim Hames, Duncan Mensch, Louise Stanley, rh Sir John Young, rh Sir George Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Hammond, Stephen Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Hancock, Matthew Miller, Maria Stewart, Bob Tellers for the Noes: Hands, Greg Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain James Duddridge and Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Rory Jenny Willott Harris, Rebecca Mordaunt, Penny Hart, Simon Morgan, Nicky Question accordingly negatived. Harvey, Nick Morris, Anne Marie Hayes, Mr John Morris, David Main Question put. Heald, Oliver Morris, James The House divided: Ayes 258, Noes 314. Heath, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Division No. 489] [7.44 pm Hemming, John Munt, Tessa Henderson, Gordon Murray, Sheryll AYES Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Abbott, Ms Diane Bailey, Mr Adrian Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Abrahams, Debbie Bain, Mr William Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Balls, rh Ed Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Banks, Gordon Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Alexander, Heidi Barron, rh Mr Kevin Howarth, Mr Gerald Norman, Jesse Ali, Rushanara Bell, Sir Stuart Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Allen, Mr Graham Benn, rh Hilary Hughes, rh Simon O’Brien, Mr Stephen Anderson, Mr David Berger, Luciana Huhne, rh Chris Offord, Mr Matthew Ashworth, Jonathan Betts, Mr Clive Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Austin, Ian Blackman-Woods, Roberta 215 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 216

Blears, rh Hazel Gilmore, Sheila McGovern, Jim Sanders, Mr Adrian Blomfield, Paul Glass, Pat McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Sarwar, Anas Blunkett, rh Mr David Glindon, Mrs Mary McKechin, Ann Seabeck, Alison Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Godsiff, Mr Roger McKenzie, Mr Iain Shannon, Jim Brennan, Kevin Goggins, rh Paul McKinnell, Catherine Sharma, Mr Virendra Brown, Lyn Goodman, Helen Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sheridan, Jim Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Green, Kate Meale, Sir Alan Shuker, Gavin Brown, Mr Russell Greenwood, Lilian Mearns, Ian Simpson, David Bryant, Chris Griffith, Nia Michael, rh Alun Skinner, Mr Dennis Buck, Ms Karen Gwynne, Andrew Miliband, rh David Slaughter, Mr Andy Burden, Richard Hain, rh Mr Peter Miliband, rh Edward Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burnham, rh Andy Hamilton, Mr David Miller, Andrew Smith, Angela Campbell, Mr Alan Hamilton, Fabian Mitchell, Austin Smith, Nick Campbell, Mr Gregory Hanson, rh Mr David Moon, Mrs Madeleine Smith, Owen Campbell, Mr Ronnie Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morden, Jessica Spellar, rh Mr John Caton, Martin Harris, Mr Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Straw, rh Mr Jack Chapman, Mrs Jenny Havard, Mr Dai Morris, Grahame M. Stringer, Graham Clark, Katy Healey, rh John (Easington) Stuart, Ms Gisela Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hendrick, Mark Mudie, Mr George Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Clwyd, rh Ann Hepburn, Mr Stephen Mulholland, Greg Tami, Mark Coaker, Vernon Heyes, David Munn, Meg Thomas, Mr Gareth Coffey, Ann Hillier, Meg Murphy, rh Mr Jim Thornberry, Emily Connarty, Michael Hilling, Julie Murphy, rh Paul Timms, rh Stephen Cooper, Rosie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Murray, Ian Trickett, Jon Cooper, rh Yvette Hoey, Kate Nandy, Lisa Turner, Karl Corbyn, Jeremy Hood, Mr Jim Nash, Pamela Twigg, Derek Crausby, Mr David Hopkins, Kelvin O’Donnell, Fiona Twigg, Stephen Creagh, Mary Horwood, Martin Onwurah, Chi Umunna, Mr Chuka Creasy, Stella Hosie, Stewart Osborne, Sandra Vaz, rh Keith Cruddas, Jon Howarth, rh Mr George Owen, Albert Vaz, Valerie Cryer, John Hunt, Tristram Pearce, Teresa Walley, Joan Cunningham, Alex Huppert, Dr Julian Perkins, Toby Watson, Mr Tom Cunningham, Mr Jim Irranca-Davies, Huw Phillipson, Bridget Watts, Mr Dave Cunningham, Tony James, Mrs Siân C. Pound, Stephen Weir, Mr Mike Curran, Margaret Jamieson, Cathy Pugh, John Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Danczuk, Simon Jarvis, Dan Qureshi, Yasmin Whitehead, Dr Alan Darling, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, rh Alan Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Williams, Hywel David, Mr Wayne Johnson, Diana Reed, Mr Jamie Williamson, Chris Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Graham Reeves, Rachel Wilson, Phil Davies, Geraint Jones, Helen Reynolds, Emma Winnick, Mr David De Piero, Gloria Jones, Mr Kevan Reynolds, Jonathan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Denham, rh Mr John Jones, Susan Elan Riordan, Mrs Linda Wishart, Pete Dobbin, Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Robertson, Angus Wood, Mike Dobson, rh Frank Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robertson, John Woodcock, John Docherty, Thomas Keeley, Barbara Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wright, David Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Kendall, Liz Rotheram, Steve Wright, Mr Iain Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Khan, rh Sadiq Roy, Mr Frank Doran, Mr Frank Lavery, Ian Roy, Lindsay Tellers for the Ayes: Dowd, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Ruane, Chris Nic Dakin and Doyle, Gemma Leslie, Chris Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Tom Blenkinsop Dromey, Jack Lewis, Mr Ivan Dugher, Michael Lloyd, Tony NOES Durkan, Mark Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Eagle, Ms Angela Long, Naomi Adams, Nigel Berry, Jake Eagle, Maria Love, Mr Andrew Afriyie, Adam Bingham, Andrew Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline Aldous, Peter Binley, Mr Brian Efford, Clive MacShane, rh Mr Denis Alexander, rh Danny Birtwistle, Gordon Elliott, Julie Mactaggart, Fiona Amess, Mr David Blackman, Bob Ellman, Mrs Louise Mahmood, Mr Khalid Andrew, Stuart Blackwood, Nicola Engel, Natascha Mahmood, Shabana Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Blunt, Mr Crispin Esterson, Bill Malhotra, Seema Bacon, Mr Richard Boles, Nick Evans, Chris Mann, John Baker, Norman Bone, Mr Peter Farrelly, Paul Marsden, Mr Gordon Baker, Steve Bottomley, Sir Peter Field, rh Mr Frank McCabe, Steve Baldry, Tony Bradley, Karen Fitzpatrick, Jim McCarthy, Kerry Baldwin, Harriett Brady, Mr Graham Flello, Robert McClymont, Gregg Barclay, Stephen Brake, rh Tom Flint, rh Caroline McCrea, Dr William Barker, Gregory Bray, Angie Flynn, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Barwell, Gavin Brazier, Mr Julian Fovargue, Yvonne McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Bebb, Guto Bridgen, Andrew Francis, Dr Hywel McDonnell, John Beith, rh Sir Alan Brine, Steve Gardiner, Barry McFadden, rh Mr Pat Benyon, Richard Brokenshire, James George, Andrew McGovern, Alison Beresford, Sir Paul Bruce, Fiona 217 Health and Social Care Bill13 MARCH 2012 Health and Social Care Bill 218

Buckland, Mr Robert Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Burley, Mr Aidan Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Burns, Conor Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Burns, rh Mr Simon Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Burrowes, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Burstow, Paul Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Burt, Lorely Hames, Duncan McVey, Esther Smith, Sir Robert Byles, Dan Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mensch, Louise Soames, rh Nicholas Cable, rh Vince Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna Cairns, Alun Hancock, Matthew Mercer, Patrick Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hands, Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Miller, Maria Stanley, rh Sir John Carmichael, Neil Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Stephenson, Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Hart, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stevenson, John Cash, Mr William Harvey, Nick Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Bob Chishti, Rehman Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Iain Chope, Mr Christopher Heald, Oliver Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Rory Clark, rh Greg Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Streeter, Mr Gary Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, David Stride, Mel Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Morris, James Stuart, Mr Graham Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Stunell, Andrew Colvile, Oliver Herbert, rh Nick Mowat, David Sturdy, Julian Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Swales, Ian Crockart, Mike Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Swayne, rh Mr Crouch, Tracey Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert Desmond Davey, rh Mr Edward Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Swinson, Jo Davies, David T. C. Howarth, Mr Gerald Newton, Sarah Swire, rh Mr Hugo (Monmouth) Howell, John Nokes, Caroline Syms, Mr Robert Davies, Glyn Hughes, rh Simon Norman, Jesse Teather, Sarah Davis, rh Mr David Huhne, rh Chris Nuttall, Mr David Thurso, John de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy O’Brien, Mr Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Dinenage, Caroline Hunter, Mark Offord, Mr Matthew Tomlinson, Justin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Tredinnick, David Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jackson, Mr Stewart Opperman, Guy Truss, Elizabeth Dorries, Nadine James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Turner, Mr Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, Sajid Parish, Neil Tyrie, Mr Andrew Drax, Richard Jenkin, Mr Bernard Patel, Priti Uppal, Paul Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Vaizey, Mr Edward Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Joseph Penning, Mike Vara, Mr Shailesh Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Vickers, Martin Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Percy, Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Perry, Claire Walker, Mr Charles Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Phillips, Stephen Walker, Mr Robin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wallace, Mr Ben Elphicke, Charlie Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher Watkinson, Angela Eustice, George Knight, rh Mr Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Weatherley, Mike Evans, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi Pritchard, Mark Webb, Steve Evans, Jonathan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic Evennett, Mr David Lancaster, Mark Randall, rh Mr John Wharton, James Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reckless, Mark Wheeler, Heather Fallon, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John White, Chris Farron, Tim Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Whittaker, Craig Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Whittingdale, Mr John Field, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wiggin, Bill Foster, rh Mr Don Leech, Mr John Robathan, rh Mr Willetts, rh Mr David Fox,rhDrLiam Leigh, Mr Edward Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Hugh Williams, Roger Freeman, George Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Williams, Stephen Freer, Mike Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Williamson, Gavin Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Wilson, Mr Rob Gale, Sir Roger Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gauke, Mr David Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Sir Bob Wright, Jeremy Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Wright, Simon Gilbert, Stephen Lopresti, Jack Sandys, Laura Yeo, Mr Tim Scott, Mr Lee Glen, John Lord, Jonathan Young, rh Sir George Selous, Andrew Goldsmith, Zac Loughton, Tim Zahawi, Nadhim Goodwill, Mr Robert Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant Sharma, Alok Gove, rh Michael Lumley, Karen Tellers for the Noes: Shelbrooke, Alec Stephen Crabb and Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Jenny Willott Grant, Mrs Helen Main, Mrs Anne Gray, Mr James Maude, rh Mr Francis Grayling, rh Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Question accordingly negatived. 219 13 MARCH 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 220 [Lords] London Local Authorities Bill [Lords] to the private Member’s legislation that outlawed turnstiles in public lavatories right across the country? Why do we Third Reading now have a separate regime being introduced in London?” Debate resumed. I wonder what will happen when they are accused of Question (21 February) again proposed, That the Bill trying to sell their car on the internet and are deemed to be now read the Third time. be engaging in street trading by reason of a substantial extension of the definition of street trading. In fact, we Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I believe have been able to restrict that, through an amendment, that Mr Chope was speaking when we adjourned the so that it will not affect ordinary individual householders debate, and, if I can have his attention, perhaps he will as it would have originally affected such individuals in indicate whether he wishes to continue to speak. Westminster. People who try to sell their cars on the internet will be adversely affected by this legislation and 7.59 pm perhaps when they suffer significant penalties they will contact their local MP. Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I was in I still have significant concerns about the Bill, but mid-sentence, I think, when we finished last time at there have been many Bills before the House that I have 10 minutes past 10. On that occasion, as we know, we had concerns about, not all of which one has been able had in the Chamber the sponsor of the Bill, my hon. to amend. If one is fair-minded, one must accept that Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green progress has been made and that there has been a (Mike Freer). Since then, he has been unwell but he is willingness on the part of the promoters and particularly back today and we are delighted to see him in his place. on the part of my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley The Bill was first introduced in November 2007 and and Golders Green, who has taken the matter forward has since progressed through Parliament, although no on their behalf, to listen. That is an important lesson for one would suggest that that progress has been rapid. If people who want to bring forward private Bills. There is and when it gets its Third Reading it will go to the other a lot to be said for a bit of jaw-jaw and discussion and place so that the many amendments that have been for trying to reach a reasonable compromise. That is introduced, largely as a result of the broad-mindedness probably quite a long answer to the intervention of my and good sense of my hon. Friend, can be considered. right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire He is to be congratulated on having put pressure on the (Mr Knight), but I feel that after this length of time not Bill’s promoters—the local authorities behind it—to much more can be said either in summary or in detail. compromise on many of the issues on which they did That is why I am going to resume my place. not, at one stage, appear to be willing to compromise. First, though, let me say that I am very grateful to all The Bill is now in a significantly better state than when those colleagues who have participated in these debates, it first reached this House, because it has been amended not least my hon. Friend the Member for North East in Committee and during the three-hour sittings on Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who has made quite a Report, but it is still an unsatisfactory Bill for a number name for himself. In one debate he broke through the of reasons. one-hour barrier. That is not a novelty for my hon. I articulated in some detail my concerns about the Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), who I Bill during the nine hours of debate on a series of think will catch your eye shortly, Mr Deputy Speaker, amendments on Report, and I do not think I can add but for those of our colleagues who have not yet broken much to the arguments I deployed in those debates. We the one-hour barrier, this type of legislation is fertile are now left with what the Bill looks like after many of ground for doing so. I commend that process to my those amendments were rejected but others were accepted. hon. Friends. All I shall say tonight is that I am glad we have been able to have a full debate on this issue. I am disappointed Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Yes, but not on that there has not been wider participation among Third Reading, Mr Chope. Members who represent London constituencies and that we are introducing legislation that will affect one part of the country while ignoring other parts. There is 8.6 pm an issue of principle there that the Government need to Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): As always, it is address. Having said all that, I think the Bill is in a a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member better state than it was. for Christchurch (Mr Chope). I might well have gone through the one-hour barrier on one occasion or more, Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): We have all but it is not my intention to do so this evening. enjoyed my hon. Friend’s circumlocution on this matter, but can he distil his arguments to a couple of sentences? The Bill has been considered at some length over Is he saying that he now regards the Bill as reasonably several years and I congratulate my hon. Friend the acceptable, broadly acceptable or still unacceptable? Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) and the promoters of the Bill on their determination Mr Chope: It depends. It is unacceptable to me but it and perseverance in ensuring that it has finally reached is probably acceptable to the majority of Members of Third Reading. The finishing line is in sight, there is not the House if one has regard to the debates and votes much further to go and the end is nigh. that have taken place. As with much legislation, the I have to say that whatever spin is put on the Bill’s proof of the pudding will be in the eating. When people provisions, it will give more powers to the local authorities in London find that they cannot go to the public toilet within our capital city and will reduce the freedoms of they used to go to without going through a turnstile the city’s citizens and visitors. It will also increase the they might ask, “Where’s that come from? What happened burden of regulation on our capital’s businesses at a 221 London Local Authorities Bill 13 MARCH 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 222 [Lords] [Lords] [Mr David Nuttall] and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), and the hon. Members for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and for Gateshead (Ian time when they ought to be devoting all their time and Mearns) for their work in scrutinising the Bill? It is fair energies to improving levels of service, increasing sales also to thank our colleagues—for instance, our hon. and dealing with all the problems that businesses face. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope)—for They are going to have to sit down and tackle all the their principled and resilient scrutiny as the Bill proceeded new burdens, rules and regulations contained within the through the House. Bill. Let me raise a couple of fresh points. First, given that Bob Blackman: I thank my hon. Friend for that the Bill imposes new burdens on businesses, I have to intervention. I add my congratulations to the Members ask what has become of the one-in, one-out rule. The who served on the Committee and who have contributed promoters have not given any indication of the rules during this debate. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the and regulations that are being removed to make way for Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) the new ones in the Bill. for his stalwart work in piloting the Bill through this There is one other reason why the Bill, even at this place and making extremely rapid progress since we late stage, ought to be rejected. So much has happened were both elected in May 2010, considering the slow in the years since the Bill first surfaced that there must rate of progress that had been made up till then. be real doubt about whether it is warranted. My hon. I remind colleagues that the Bill may have entered the Friend the Member for Christchurch mentioned the House of Commons and the House of Lords in 2007, fact that the Bill made its first appearance in 2007. Since but its gestation began long before that as a wish list then, not only have a number of London local authorities from the 32 London boroughs and the City of London. changed their political composition and in some cases I well remember seeing a very long wish list prior to the their political control, but the Mayor of London has Bill being presented to the House. That list has been changed, and we are about to enter a further mayoral considerably reduced. election. It is important that we consider the wide range of ideas that emerged on Report. It was suggested that the Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): council officials who were to serve penalty notices should May I reassure my hon. Friend that the Bill is promoted wear a uniform, with a bowler hat, or that they should on behalf of London Councils, not the Mayor of London? wear a fine tabard properly approved by the College of Although over the preceding years the complexion of Arms. I trust we have accepted that that is not quite London Councils may have changed, the leadership of what we intended, and that it will not be implemented all three political parties and all 32 London boroughs across London. But many good ideas have been accepted and the City of London still wholeheartedly support and encapsulated within the Bill, as amended. My hon. the Bill, as amended. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green has acted in a coherent and co-operative way in order to Mr Nuttall: I am sure that is the case. take in the ideas of others, which have been welcomed Since the change in the mayoralty of London, a further across the piece. change has occurred—the passing into law of the Localism There can be no denying that there has been a huge Bill. Under the Localism Act 2011 there is a general amount of scrutiny of the Bill and the powers within it. power of competence for local authorities. Had the Among the topics raised on Third Reading was that of Localism Act been around a few years ago, provisions turnstiles on public toilets. The purpose is to do away in this Bill might not have found their way into it at all with the need for toilets to be staffed and for the and might now be rendered completely unnecessary. councils to retain the money that will come from the use As I said in opening my remarks, the Bill has been of the toilets by members of the public. There is nothing subjected to detailed analysis on consideration. Some new in that in many parts of London, but those toilets progress has been made and I am pleased to say that the are often operated by private companies, as opposed to promoters listened to the arguments. The requirement the public authorities. That will change, and it is important. that notices should be served by an accredited person Another issue was the sale of cars on the internet. We has been removed, which is one small victory for those dealt with that on Report, but it is important that we who highlighted the Bill’s deficiencies. As my hon. put on record now what it is all about. At present, if Friend the Member for Christchurch said, the Bill ought people sell cars on the public highway and put notices in not to have proceeded. I agree, but the House is broadly the cars, that is an offence and action can be taken. in favour of its content. For that reason I will draw my However, if unscrupulous individuals do not put notices remarks on this long-running measure to an end. in the cars but just park them on the public highway and advertise them on the internet, no action can be taken. The Bill allows council officers to clamp down 8.12 pm on that practice, which is a scourge on many London Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I support the streets. The measure will be widely welcomed across Third Reading of the Bill, which has been subjected to London. immense scrutiny. There have been opportunities for The Bill has been scrutinised on the Floor of the detailed discussion of all aspects, including every clause House, in Committee and in an Unopposed Bill Committee and every line of the Bill. in another place. It adds to the nine previous Bills that London authorities have put through in order to give Mike Freer: On the point about scrutiny, will my hon. London boroughs greater powers to take action on Friend join me in thanking our hon. Friends the Members issues that matter to Londoners. I am sure the Bill will for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) and for Chatham be welcomed by London residents. They will see it as 223 London Local Authorities Bill 13 MARCH 2012 224 [Lords] allowing action to be taken against those who disobey done to promote the Bill—I am delighted to see him the law. I trust that visitors from the constituencies of back in the Chamber in good health. I also congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch, for and thank all hon. Members on both sides of the House Bury North (Mr Nuttall), for Shipley (Philip Davies) who have contributed to the scrutiny of the Bill. I will and for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who certainly not detain the House for long. I have made it have all contributed to the debates, will not be upset by clear on previous occasions that the Government maintain the outcome. a neutral position on the Bill, as is consistent with the I thank the Minister and the hon. Member for Derby conventions and precedents relating to Bills of this North (Chris Williamson) in advance for their support kind. for the Bill, and all 32 London boroughs and the City of The issue that has been flagged up in the course of London for their support. I trust the House will give it the debates we have had is the need for balance between an unopposed Third Reading tonight. localism, which is of course part of the Government’s policy, and a proportionate approach to regulation. If it 8.18 pm is the will of the House that the Bill be passed, I hope that local authorities will exercise their new powers in a Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): I rise in support proportionate and considered fashion and am sure that of the Bill. It is has taken a long time to get to this stage they will do so responsibly. We want illegitimate behaviour and, I must say, has received an astonishing amount of to be dealt with but, at the same time, do not want the scrutiny. I am not sure that I would wish to thank the legitimate business activities of Londoners to be penalised. hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) for his In so far as an attempt to strike that balance has been contribution in the way the hon. Member for Finchley achieved, if the House considers that to be the case, the and Golders Green (Mike Freer) did, but he certainly Government do not object to the Bill. It has been left no stone unturned in his scrutiny of the Bill, and he improved considerably by amendments, as has been was ably assisted in that task by his hon. Friends the observed, and a number of clauses that the Government Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for North could not support were removed on Second Reading. If East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). it is the will of the House that the Bill be passed, subject The Bill is an important step. As the hon. Member to the aspiration that its provisions will be dealt with in for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) pointed out, it is a proportionate and responsible manner, as I am sure supported by every London borough and, indeed, every London Councils will, the Government do not object. Member of Parliament who represents a constituency Question put and agreed to. in the capital. For that reason, I hope that it will receive Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, with an unopposed Third Reading this evening. It is very amendments. much in line with the Government’s call for greater localism and for local authorities to have greater self- determination, which the Opposition support. Business without Debate The hon. Member for Harrow East dealt with a number of the clauses in his contribution. I think that there was a misunderstanding—if I may put it like DELEGATED LEGISLATION that—from the hon. Member for Christchurch, who Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing raised some concerns about the installation of turnstiles Order No.118(6)), in public toilets. He also suggested that cars being parked on highways and then sold over the internet SOCIAL SECURITY were not a major problem, but I know from the information That the draft Jobseeker’s Allowance (Domestic Violence) I have received that local residents have on many occasions (Amendment) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this been put out by unscrupulous traders who are getting House on 19 January, be approved.—(Mr Brooks Newmark.) around the law by using the internet inappropriately, so Question agreed to. I think that it is appropriate to enable local authorities to address the problem on behalf of the people who Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing elect them. Order No.118(6)), Some clauses in the Bill have been lost, which I think is regrettable. For example, I think that it would have EDUCATION been helpful if the Bill still included the additional That the draft Alternative Provision Academies (Consequential protections that were proposed for people living in Amendments to Acts) (England) Order 2012, which was laid houses in multiple occupation and the greater protections before this House on 1 February, be approved.—(Mr Brooks for restaurant users. Nevertheless, the Bill is worth Newmark.) supporting and, in view of the considerable scrutiny it Question agreed to. has already been subject to, I hope that we will not be Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing detained too long this evening and that it will be given Order No.118(6)), an unopposed Third Reading. GOVERNMENT RESOURCES AND ACCOUNTS 8.22 pm That the draft Government Resources and Accounts Act 2000 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for (Audit of Public Bodies) Order 2012, which was laid before this Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): I House on 1 February, be approved.—(Mr Brooks Newmark.) join all hon. Members who have spoken in the debate in Question agreed to. congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing and Golders Green (Mike Freer) on the work he has Order No.118(6)), 225 Business without Debate13 MARCH 2012 Business without Debate 226

IMMIGRATION Griffiths, Andrew Newmark, Mr Brooks That the draft Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations Gummer, Ben Newton, Sarah 2012, which were laid before this House on 9 February, be Hames, Duncan Norman, Jesse approved.—(Mr Brooks Newmark.) Hammond, rh Mr Philip Nuttall, Mr David Hammond, Stephen Question agreed to. O’Brien, Mr Stephen Hands, Greg Offord, Mr Matthew Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Harper, Mr Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Order No.118(6)), Harris, Rebecca Opperman, Guy Harvey, Nick Patel, Priti Heath, Mr David TAXES Pawsey, Mark Hemming, John That the draft Data-gathering Powers (Relevant Data) Regulations Penning, Mike Herbert, rh Nick 2012, which were laid before this House on 20 February, be Penrose, John Hinds, Damian approved.—(Mr Brooks Newmark.) Perry, Claire Hollingbery, George Question agreed to. Hollobone, Mr Philip Phillips, Stephen Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Hopkins, Kris Pickles, rh Mr Eric Order No.118(6)), Horwood, Martin Pincher, Christopher Howell, John Poulter, Dr Daniel Pugh, John TAX CREDITS Hughes, rh Simon Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Raab, Mr Dominic That the draft Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2012, which Hunter, Mark Randall, rh Mr John were laid before this House on 1 February, be approved.—(Mr Brooks Huppert, Dr Julian Reid, Mr Alan Newmark.) Hurd, Mr Nick Robathan, rh Mr Andrew The House divided: Ayes 238, Noes 67. James, Margot Robertson, Hugh Division No. 490] [8.25 pm Jenkin, Mr Bernard Rogerson, Dan Johnson, Gareth Rosindell, Andrew Johnson, Joseph AYES Rudd, Amber Jones, Andrew Russell, Sir Bob Adams, Nigel Clark, rh Greg Jones, Mr David Rutley, David Afriyie, Adam Collins, Damian Jones, Mr Marcus Sanders, Mr Adrian Aldous, Peter Colvile, Oliver Kawczynski, Daniel Sandys, Laura Amess, Mr David Crockart, Mike Kelly, Chris Scott, Mr Lee Andrew, Stuart Crouch, Tracey Kirby, Simon Selous, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davey, rh Mr Edward Knight, rh Mr Greg Sharma, Alok Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, David T. C. Kwarteng, Kwasi Shelbrooke, Alec Baker, Norman (Monmouth) Lamb, Norman Davies, Glyn Simmonds, Mark Baker, Steve Lancaster, Mark Dinenage, Caroline Skidmore, Chris Baldry, Tony Laws, rh Mr David Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Smith, Miss Chloe Baldwin, Harriett Lee, Jessica Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Smith, Henry Barclay, Stephen Lee, Dr Phillip Doyle-Price, Jackie Leech, Mr John Smith, Julian Barwell, Gavin Drax, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Smith, Sir Robert Bebb, Guto Duncan, rh Mr Alan Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Soames, rh Nicholas Beith, rh Sir Alan Dunne, Mr Philip Lewis, Brandon Soubry, Anna Benyon, Richard Ellis, Michael Lloyd, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Beresford, Sir Paul Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lopresti, Jack Spencer, Mr Mark Berry, Jake Eustice, George Lord, Jonathan Stanley, rh Sir John Bingham, Andrew Evans, Graham Loughton, Tim Stephenson, Andrew Blackman, Bob Evans, Jonathan Luff, Peter Stevenson, John Blackwood, Nicola Evennett, Mr David Lumley, Karen Stewart, Bob Boles, Nick Fabricant, Michael Macleod, Mary Stewart, Iain Bone, Mr Peter Farron, Tim May, rh Mrs Theresa Stewart, Rory Bradley, Karen Featherstone, Lynne Maynard, Paul Streeter, Mr Gary Brake, rh Tom Foster, rh Mr Don McCartney, Jason Stuart, Mr Graham Bray, Angie Fox,rhDrLiam McCartney, Karl Stunell, Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Sturdy, Julian Brine, Steve Freeman, George McPartland, Stephen Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Brokenshire, James Freer, Mike Mensch, Louise Fullbrook, Lorraine Mercer, Patrick Swinson, Jo Bruce, Fiona Gale, Sir Roger Metcalfe, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Buckland, Mr Robert Garnier, Mark Miller, Maria Thurso, John Burley, Mr Aidan Gauke, Mr David Mills, Nigel Timpson, Mr Edward Burns, Conor George, Andrew Moore, rh Michael Tomlinson, Justin Burns, rh Mr Simon Gilbert, Stephen Morgan, Nicky Truss, Elizabeth Burrowes, Mr David Glen, John Morris, Anne Marie Vaizey, Mr Edward Burt, Lorely Graham, Richard Morris, David Vara, Mr Shailesh Byles, Dan Grant, Mrs Helen Morris, James Vickers, Martin Cable, rh Vince Gray, Mr James Mowat, David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Grayling, rh Chris Munt, Tessa Walker, Mr Robin Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Green, Damian Murray, Sheryll Weatherley, Mike Carswell, Mr Douglas Greening, rh Justine Murrison, Dr Andrew Webb, Steve Chishti, Rehman Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Neill, Robert Wharton, James 227 Business without Debate13 MARCH 2012 Business without Debate 228

Wheeler, Heather Wollaston, Dr Question accordingly agreed to. White, Chris Sarah Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Whittaker, Craig Wright, Simon Young, rh Sir Order No. 118(6)), Wiggin, Bill George Williams, Mr Mark Zahawi, Nadhim SOCIAL SECURITY Williamson, Gavin Tellers for the Ayes: That the draft Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Order 2012, Willott, Jenny Stephen Crabb and which was laid before this House on 1 February, be approved.— Wilson, Mr Rob James Duddridge (Mr Newmark.) Question agreed to. NOES Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Abbott, Ms Diane MacShane, rh Mr Order No. 118(6)), Ashworth, Jonathan Denis Austin, Ian Mactaggart, Fiona SOCIAL SECURITY Bailey, Mr Adrian McCabe, Steve That the draft Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating (Northern Betts, Mr Clive McCrea, Dr William Ireland) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 1 February, Blackman-Woods, McDonnell, Dr be approved.—(Mr Newmark.) Roberta Alasdair Question agreed to. Blenkinsop, Tom McKechin, Ann Blomfield, Paul Michael, rh Alun Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Miller, Andrew DELEGATED LEGISLATION (COMMITTEES) Campbell, Mr Alan Moon, Mrs Madeleine Ordered, Campbell, Mr Gregory Morrice, Graeme Clark, Katy (Livingston) That the Motion in the name of Secretary Vince Cable relating to Financial Assistance to Industry shall be treated as if it related Connarty, Michael Mudie, Mr George to an instrument subject to the provisions of Standing Order Munn, Meg Cooper, Rosie No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of which Perkins, Toby Corbyn, Jeremy notice has been given that the instrument be approved.—(Mr Heath.) Crausby, Mr Raynsford, rh Mr David Nick Creasy, Stella Seabeck, Alison EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Cryer, John Shannon, Jim Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Simpson, David Danczuk, Simon Skinner, Mr Dennis Order No. 119(11)), David, Mr Wayne Slaughter, Mr Andy Davies, Geraint Smith, Owen IMPLEMENTATION OF THE COMMON COMMERCIAL De Piero, Gloria Spellar, rh Mr John POLICY Docherty, Thomas Stringer, Graham That this House takes note of European Union Document Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry No. 7455/11, relating to a draft regulation amending certain Dowd, Jim Tami, Mark Regulations relating to the common commercial policy as regards Dugher, Michael Thomas, Mr Gareth the procedures for the adoption of certain measures; supports Durkan, Mark Twigg, Derek the Government’s aim of enabling appropriate application of the Elliott, Julie Umunna, Mr Chuka new decision-making requirements established by Regulation Fitzpatrick, Jim Williamson, Chris (EU) 182/2011, as it applies to all Regulations to be amended by Glindon, Mrs Mary Wilson, Phil the draft regulation; and further supports the Government’s aim Hanson, rh Mr David Winterton, rh Ms of negotiating a draft regulation which both reflects the need, in anti-dumping and antisubsidy investigations, for effective consultation Hood, Mr Jim Rosie with Member States and other interested parties and maintains Wright, David Jones, Graham proportionate timelines, minimising uncertainty for business.— Jones, Mr Kevan Tellers for the Noes: (Mr Newmark.) Leslie, Chris Mr David Hamilton and Question agreed to. Long, Naomi Mark Hendrick 229 13 MARCH 2012 Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure) 230

Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure) now. The new network manager for Scotland, Ms Sally Buchanan, did not take the trouble to do that. In fact, Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House we had to search out her telephone number so that we do now adjourn.—(Mr Newmark.) could contact her. 8.37 pm Ms Buchanan had been contacted by Neil Findlay, the adept MSP for Lothian. He contacted the address in Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Edinburgh and received a reply on 21 November. The The reason why I have called for this Adjournment reply was interesting because it said that the Post Office debate is to warn all Members of the House that what had done modelling. I do not know when it had found happened to the sub-post office in the village of Torphichen the time to do that modelling between 2 and 8 November. could happen in every constituency in the UK, and is Having done the modelling, it had decided that the Post likely to do so, given the plans of the Post Office. Office Local option, which was mentioned when we I should like to draw a timeline for the House. At the debated the Postal Services Act 2011, would be best for time of the last review of the post office network there that property. was no proposal to close Torphichen sub-post office. In We discovered that, despite the fact that somebody in my constituency there were a number of closures in very the village had approached the owner of the post office small villages with very small numbers of post office building and offered to buy it, the Post Office had got users. However, Torphichen is a village of over 600 residents the key from the previous owner and stripped out all the living in over 300 dwellings. It is a very well-known security that a normal sub-post office has. For some heritage village where the priory of the Order of St John reason it drilled holes in the safe so that it could no was founded after the knights left the Holy Land, and it longer be used to store money. When I challenged the is visited a great deal by tourists passing through West Post Office on that matter, the reply was: Lothian on their way to Linlithgow palace, where Mary, Queen of Scots was born. The village’s natural attractiveness “That we removed the Post Office owned equipment, including makes it very popular with people who want to buy the computer system, from the premises is not indicative of future service arrangements; it is normal practice for us to recover our houses and commute into Edinburgh. It is not a village property where there is any doubt over our ability to have continued with a down-at-heel population who have very little use access to the premises.” for a post office. Moreover, it has many elderly residents. As I wrote to the Minister and the head of Post Office On 2 November 2011 the most recent postmaster, Ltd, Ms Vennells, it is quite clear that this was an act of who had not been a shopkeeper before and had been vandalism by the Post Office. I can see the point of renting the premises for some nine months, decided to taking out the computer, but not of ripping out all the give up the premises, stop being a shopkeeper and give security that a normal sub-post office uses. It is clear up the licence at the same time. The person who previously that the Post Office had taken the decision to downgrade ran the post office and very popular shop—the only the sub-post office without any consultation with the shop in the village—had done so for a long time. That is public. the crucial point. It is the post office that has sustained the village shop for many years, as do many post offices I have never had to put up with anything like that. I in communities across the shires of England and the do not think that any Member from any part of the counties of Scotland. House or from any party would find that acceptable. I On 8 November Post Office Ltd sent a letter under certainly would not have found it acceptable in the past the name of Brian Turnbull, the change manager, to and did not expect it to happen in this case. MPs, MSPs and local authorities saying that there had been a temporary closure. It put an apology for the Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): I congratulate temporary closure on the window of the shop. Interestingly, my hon. Friend on securing the debate. I am a neighbouring I believe that that is the same Brian Turnbull who used Member, representing Livingston in West Lothian, and to be the manager of the post office in Bathgate, who I am therefore well aware of the community to which he got me and my constituency party to campaign for refers. He said that there was no consultation with the some years to keep his post office open. When his community and little consultation with him as an elected Crown post office shut, all the people who worked there Member of Parliament. Is it not the case that the code got their books and were made redundant. Obviously of practice for the post office network requires full and he then got taken on to carry out the same task in other meaningful public consultation if any changes to particular areas. post offices and sub-post offices are to be made? The odd thing about the letter was that it was written from an address in St Albans. It referred to a couple of Michael Connarty: I thank my hon. Friend for his telephone numbers, but when I called them I heard intervention because I am about to come on to that things like, “Press 1 if you want this, press 2 if you want subject. The code of practice was attached to the original that, or press 3 if you want nothing.” The website that circular that was sent to MPs and MSPs. The Post the letter referred to was just a general website with Office apologised for the inconvenience of the temporary nothing at all about what was happening to Torphichen closure and attached to every circular its code of practice, post office. There was no way of communicating. which states: In the past, the network manager for Scotland would have had the courtesy to phone the Member of Parliament, “We’ll let you know about any change as soon as we possibly can. Sometimes, change is out of our control, but we’ll try to keep because this is a reserved matter. They would have spoken you as up-to-date about what’s happening as much as we can. We to the Member of Parliament and involved them in any try to make sure you have 4 weeks’ notice before anything difficulties, temporary closures, or proposals for changes happens. If we’re going to make big changes, there’ll be a ‘consultation or for a reopening. That has always been the case until period’ which lasts about 6 weeks.” 231 Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure)13 MARCH 2012 Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure) 232

I can verify that ripping out the equipment happened had in my constituency its forerunner, which was called within days of the Post Office finding out that the post office essentials. The shopkeeper who took that on closure had taken place. board eventually after six months decided that it was From then on, it was clear that the Post Office had not worth the trouble, because of a number of things. immediately been contacted by someone in the village The shopkeeper of a Post Office Local has to provide who wished to purchase the building and reopen the all financing out of their own pocket; no money comes post office—Miss Oonagh Shackleton and her partner from the Post Office in advance. The Post Office will tell Ian Jamieson, who run a very good manufacturing people that it might give them a loan in the interim to company in another village. They were keen to give the see them over to the point when they are viable, but in shop back to the village, and they talked to the Post reality, financing for a Post Office Local—or a post Office immediately. We also know that the shop’s previous office essential, as it was called—comes out of the owner, Mussarat Aziz, who had been the sub-postmistress pocket of the shopkeeper. and was also the sub-postmistress in Boghall in Bathgate Another problem for the shopkeeper was that people in another part of my constituency, was approached by could come in and say that he had kept their pension for the Post Office to ascertain whether she would take over five or six weeks and they would like to have it because the post office temporarily and run it as a sub-post they were going on holiday: they would be asking for office. On the one hand, the Post Office was saying that £500, £600, £700 or £800. Small shopkeepers do not it wanted to keep the sub-post office going, and on the keep that kind of money in their shop, so the shopkeeper other hand, it had been approached by someone who who ran the post office essential in Linlithgow Bridge in wanted to do a similar thing. my constituency told me that he had to say to people, At the public meeting that we held in the village, “I’m sorry. I can’t supply that kind of money. I can’t Oonagh Shackleton said that she had a business plan, shut the shop to go to the bank, so you’ll have to go to which included financing a sub-post office. In the agreement the main post office,” which was at the other end of that we had when the post office network review took town. Of course, people then started saying, “What place, the money that the Government gave the Post good are you?” and he started to lose customers. In fact, Office included money for running a sub-post office in he decided it was not worth the trouble to have a post Torphichen. The money had not been taken away or office essential. withdrawn, and it was therefore assumed that it would be available. However, for some mysterious reason that That was in a town environment, but if it happened was never confirmed to Oonagh Shackleton. She decided in Torphichen, and if people found that they were not that she wanted to open the shop in the village again using the shop because they were not getting the service, anyway, and she went ahead and purchased it. and that they had to go to the main post offices in other towns to get large sums of money, I believe the shop However, now that all the security has been torn out, would become unviable, close and be turned into a we are told that Mr Brian Turnbull says that if we want house. I have seen that happen again and again in a post office service of any kind in that shop in the villages that have lost their post office. village, we can have only a Post Office Local. I call that blackmail. All that stuff about removing the equipment The shop will be taken away from the village if the not meaning that the Post Office had changed its mind proposals do not succeed. The people who offered to is clearly a bluff. open the shop in the belief that they would get a sub-postmaster’s salary, get money delivered by the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I share the hon. Post Office securely, and have a safe, secure and insured Gentleman’s disappointment at what has happened to transit of money, find those things denied to them by his post office. In four locations in Northern Ireland— Post Office Local. It is a travesty that that has gone Ballyhalbert, Portavogie, Cloughey and Kircubbin—all ahead, and everything I have had from the Post Office, the changes were made with consultation and a time right up to Miss Vennells, and sadly from Ministers, scale for the changeover. Does the hon. Gentleman feel who have just copied letters coming from the Post that there should be a successful transition period before Office, does not stand up to scrutiny. the handover, so that everything runs smoothly, and to I want to end with a couple of things that make me stop debacles such as that in his constituency? think this is not just happening in this village. I wrote to Miss Paula Vennells, the chief executive of Post Office Michael Connarty: I totally agree. Every hon. Member Ltd, on 3 February, asking: would expect that. I am sure that the Minister would expect it in his constituency. We would expect the Post Office “Who took the decision to take out the Sub Post Office to say, “We have a closed shop and someone who might infrastructure?...Who decided not to re-open the Sub Post Office but to re-brand/re-offer a Post Office Local to the new owner of want to buy it. We’ll consult the public on what kind of the Torphichen Sub Post Office?” set-up they want, and support the shop on the basis that previously existed.” That would have been sensible. No reply has been heard from the Post Office since The Post Office’s precipitate action was driven presumably then. by a policy from above to drive down the level of We discover that the Post Office proposal, when we service—that is what happens with Post Office Local. discussed the Bill, was to have new operating models—that The Post Office probably now finds that action irreversible is what they are called—in 50% of its branch network. —or perhaps it acted deliberately to ensure that the Post Office Ltd’s own plans say that at least 2,000 action was irreversible. branches will be converted to the new local operating If people consult Hansard, they will find that when model. That is potentially four sub-post offices in the we debated the Postal Services Act 2011 and heard talk constituency of every Member in the House. This debate of Post Office Local, I informed the House that I had is about that happening in a precipitate manner. 233 Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure)13 MARCH 2012 Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure) 234

[Michael Connarty] commitments are particularly relevant to the situation at Torphichen. Over the course of this Parliament, we We have tabled early-day motion 2841 calling for a will provide £1.34 billion of funding to secure the moratorium on the use of the Post Office Local model. long-term and sustainable future of the post office As I have said, the post office essential model is not network. That will be achieved through investment to much different. Shopkeepers do not get parcels, and modernise about 6,000 post offices, improving them for there are limits on the amount of benefits that can be the future while continuing to provide funding to maintain drawn from the shops, because people draw them on the a network of at least 11,500 post office branches. resources of the person who is running the post-office Alongside that was the fundamental commitment local, or sub-post office. that there would be no programme of post office closures. I am asking the Minister to look again at what has That is important to this debate and the situation happened in Torphichen, and to say to the Post Office in Torphichen in particular. As I explained in my that it has not consulted properly or used its own correspondence with the hon. Gentleman, Torphichen agreement. It has not yet had a public meeting in the post office temporarily closed—he made that point—last village. We took letters to the community council because November, following the resignation of the previous sub- nothing has been written to people in the village. Post postmaster with immediate effect. That is really important. Office Ltd is secretly badgering the person who has Those two words—“immediate” and “temporary” —are bought the post office to take a Post Office Local. It is significant. Normally, when a sub-postmaster wishes to saying, “If you don’t take a local, the village will be resign, they are obliged under the terms of their contract most upset because they haven’t got post office services. to give Post Office Ltd three months’ notice to enable You’ll get no help or money from us, and you’ll get such the Post Office to identify a new sub-postmaster or a miserly sum for every transaction that it really won’t mistress and, if necessary, nearby premises from which be worth your while, but you’ll have to take it or the post office services can continue to be provided. village will blame you”—the person who rescues the I understand that the previous sub-postmaster at shop—rather than the Post Office, which deserves to be Torphichen resigned with immediate effect, so Post blamed. Office Ltd had no opportunity to ensure a proper and I hope the Minister will look seriously at this situation. timely transition of service in the community without a The Government might say, “We can’t interfere; this is a break in service. That was the point made by the hon. commercial matter,” but this is such a breach of the Post Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). Of course, ideally, Office’s own rules and practices. Will the Government we would seek to achieve a smooth transition from one say to their Back Benchers and to Opposition Members sub-postmaster or mistress to another, but that is simply that that new model is acceptable? I hope not. impossible where the sub-postmaster resigns with immediate effect.

8.54 pm Jim Shannon: In the light of what has happened—I am sure that there are many other examples across the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, United Kingdom—is it not time that post offices put in Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb): I congratulate place a system whereby they have someone on standby the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk who can fill in as a changeover takes place? Is that (Michael Connarty) on securing this debate. Adjournment something that the Minister would consider? debates are an important opportunity for Members to Norman Lamb: The problem is that we are dealing raise issues of importance to their own constituencies. with private businesses. Most sub-post offices are owned He has taken that opportunity, and I applaud him for individually as private businesses, so it would be difficult doing so. He has been passionate in pursuing this issue. to put in place a network of people who are immediately As a Member representing a rural constituency, I agree available perhaps to move into premises that are privately- with him about the importance of maintaining the rural owned and not accessible to a third party. The emphasis sub-post office network, and I welcome the opportunity is on trying to get as smooth a transition as possible, but to respond to the concerns reflected in a petition to obviously there are real difficulties when someone walks Parliament from the residents of Torphichen, which, I out without giving any notice. I absolutely sympathise am told, is a very beautiful village. with the concerns of the people of Torphichen, who The hon. Gentleman spoke passionately about the have been suddenly confronted with the loss of a really importance of the post office in Torphichen and about important service and who obviously fear for its future. its future. It is a matter he has written to me about, so I I completely understand that concern. have some understanding of his concerns. I think back, As a result, the post office in Torphichen has been however, to the extensive debates in the House, to which closed temporarily since 2 November last year. A temporary he referred, on the Postal Services Act 2011, which was closure is exactly that: temporary—closed for a limited passed last July. He will remember that he opposed the period while Post Office Ltd seeks to identify a new Act, not withstanding its clear objectives, which were to sub-postmaster to restore services. Where a temporary secure the future of the universal postal service and, closure occurs, it is obviously preferable that it lasts as critically in this context, to secure the future of the post short a time as possible. I understand that in the majority office network. As I said, I care passionately about of the 602 cases over the last nine months where a achieving that. sub-postmaster has chosen to leave the network—whether I shall briefly reiterate, for the record, the commitments because they are retiring or moving elsewhere, or for to the future of the post office network made by my other reasons—there has been a seamless transition predecessor postal affairs Minister, my right hon. Friend between the outgoing and incoming sub-postmasters, the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey). It with no break in service for the post office’s customers. is important to do so, because the Government’s However, that cannot necessarily happen in all cases. 235 Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure)13 MARCH 2012 Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure) 236

The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk strategy. It offers genuine benefits and opportunities for used the term “downgrade”. Let me address that concern. the sub-postmaster, for the company and also, critically, There was no decision to downgrade the Torphichen for customers. post office. He talked about the removal of security equipment, so let me deal with that. I have noted his Michael Connarty: Rubbish! concern, but I should explain that where a sub-post office temporarily closes, the temporary removal of Norman Lamb: The hon. Gentleman says, “Rubbish,” valuable Post Office-owned equipment for safe storage but let me develop my argument. The Post Office Local should not be misinterpreted, or otherwise misconstrued, model has been extensively piloted over the last year. It as suggesting that post office services will be permanently is now operational in more than 150 locations. Critically, removed or downgraded; rather, it is purely to ensure where it is being piloted, customers—the hon. Gentleman’s the safekeeping of equipment. It is standard practice constituents in Torphichen—are reporting high levels until such time as the equipment can be reinstalled. of satisfaction, and operators are seeing more sales and As the representative of a rural constituency, I fully are benefiting from greater flexibility. understand the considerable distress and inconvenience When we look in detail at the Post Office Local that the closure of any post office causes to a community. model and at the independent research that has been That is why I am so delighted to be in a position to say conducted, the reasons for high levels of customer that this Government are investing in the post office satisfaction become apparent. Not only are post offices network, not spending large sums of taxpayers’ money staying in communities, but they are offering access to closing it. I am well aware of the inconvenience that the the vast majority of post office services—95% of the temporary closure of Torphichen post office is causing transactions that typically account for customer visits the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, but I can give him across the network—during much longer opening hours. this reassurance. Post Office Ltd has not considered the That is really important. In the past, the service to permanent closure of Torphichen post office, and is customers has often been constrained by limited opening actively engaged in measures to re-establish the post hours. With the Post Office Local model, a post office office service there. can remain open for as long as the shop is open. That makes it much more convenient for people to obtain Michael Connarty: I hope that the Minister will accept those services in an evening, for example, if that suits what I said before, and what I will say again: the Post their working habits. That will mean that more people Office is badgering the person who has bought the shop will use the post office’s services in their local sub-post —they own it—to take only the Post Office Local option, office. So far, the evidence is that sales have gone up by which is all that it is offering. There is no equipment 9% in those Post Office Local models. Sub-postmasters going back in, no security going back in and no safe and sub-postmistresses are reporting their own satisfaction going back—it was taken out for scrap. The Post Office with the model. So customers and sub-postmasters had already made the decision when it wrote to the support the model in the vast majority of cases. MSP for Lothian on 21 November that it would offer only a Post Office Local—no consultation; no consideration Graeme Morrice: The Minister mentioned the discussions of keeping the sub-post office. How can that be justified that had taken place on the move to the Post Office Local by anyone? All the money that is being spent on the model. Presumably, those were internal discussions within Post Office will not be spent in Torphichen. the post office network. Has there been any public consultation involving local communities on the issue?

Norman Lamb: The hon. Gentleman uses the term Norman Lamb: Let me deal with the consultation and “badgering”. My understanding from the explanation I with the issue of compliance with the code of practice. I have received is that discussions are continuing and that know that the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East the owner of the shop is keen to provide post office Falkirk has expressed concern that the code has not services. There has not yet been a conclusion to those been complied with, and I note that concern. The code discussions, but I think there is optimism that a successful of practice that was agreed between Consumer Focus conclusion will be reached. and Post Office Ltd governs changes in the post office network, and it has to be followed. I see from the hon. Michael Connarty: A Post Office Local? Gentleman’s letters to me that Post Office Ltd wrote to him on 8 November to explain why the branch had Norman Lamb: I want to deal with this issue, because closed and to say that the company would it clearly concerns the hon. Gentleman, and I want to “work to find a solution that will provide a post office service to address his concerns properly. I have noted his comments the Torphichen community.” about the future of the post office, and in particular his The code of practice contains details of when and why concerns about the Post Office Local model. Given the a consultation will be held. In the case of a temporary importance of the post office network, both the closure—which this is—such as that caused by the Government and Post Office Ltd have invested a great sudden resignation of the previous sub-postmaster, the deal of time and energy to ensure that the future strategy code states: for the Post Office strikes a balance between providing a “We will aim to restore the service...as quickly as possible. As fair income for sub-postmasters and ensuring that Post such, and given the emphasis on speed of activity to ensure the Office Ltd is financially sustainable. Both elements of service interruption is as temporary as possible, this would not be the strategy are underpinned by the commitment to a matter for public consultation—rather it is an issue of effective maintain the network at its current size, with a focus on communication to keep customers informed.” providing improved service for the Post Office’s customers. That is why a letter was sent to the hon. Gentleman very The Post Office Local is an important element of the soon after the closure occurred. 237 Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure)13 MARCH 2012 Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure) 238

[Norman Lamb] I understand that the Post Office is holding the commercial discussions with the interested party in As I have made clear in my correspondence with the Torphichen, who is keen to provide post office services hon. Gentleman on this matter, the benefits of the local in the community. Crucially, a particular interest was model far outweigh the reduction in the availability of a expressed in the Post Office Local model—perhaps very small number of services. He might not take much because of the flexibility it offers and its popularity comfort from my words on this matter, but I hope that with customers. he will recognise that many sub-postmasters, old and The hon. Gentleman suggested that there should be a new—potentially including those in his constituency—see moratorium, but given that this model has been so the benefits of the Post Office Local model. Given what successful and so popular, it would surely be disastrous has happened in the 150 pilots that have been conducted to stop it. We all have a common goal in ensuring the over the past year, and given the very high levels of sustainability of the post office network. Given the customer satisfaction that have been reported, I ask him quite dramatic decline in footfall over the last decade, to keep an open mind and to reflect on the fact that, if things have to change; we have to find new ways of customers in other branches that have been piloted over attracting people into the shop. One attractive aspect of the past year have responded so enthusiastically, it the local model, as I have said, is the fact that opening might just be that his own constituents in Torphichen hours are so much longer. That is an attractive prospect would respond positively to a Post Office Local in that for customers in Torphichen, as elsewhere. community. My Department has received many letters from the Michael Connarty: But the Minister must accept that residents of Torphichen about the future of the post if the Post Office Local model does not provide an office, with many also signing the petition calling for its adequate income stream for the business model of the reopening, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned. I can person who has bought the shop, and if the shop closes tell him that that is very encouraging, because if everyone because of inadequate footfall in the village, it will be who signed the petition were to visit the new post office because there is inadequate supporting income, given on a weekly basis, its business would be increased by the miserly payments from Post Office Local to the over 50% on previous levels. If we can get agreement people who run them. If that were to happen, the with the shop owner and the post office service is Minister would be responsible for shutting that shop. resumed, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will do all He will see from the petition and the letters and notes he can to encourage customers in the local community sent by the people in the village that the village was to use the facility. dead during the period in which the shop was not open. Before I finish, let me reiterate the fact that the hon. No one was traversing the high street, and people were Gentleman’s assumption that this is all about downgrading not talking to each other as they had no place to meet. or closure is simply not the case. If we are confronted If that happens again, the Minister will be responsible. with someone walking out on a business, giving literally no notice, a temporary closure is inevitable, as I explained. Norman Lamb: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Everything is being done to try to make sure that the warning. I come back—[Interruption.] That sort of service is resumed as quickly as possible for the benefit abuse is surely unnecessary. of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. I thank him for Given that the pilots pursued over the last year have raising this issue and for presenting me with the opportunity proved so successful—both for sub-postmasters and for to reassure him and his constituents that steps to restore customers—I repeat that the hon. Gentleman should post office services in Torphichen are being actively have an open mind to the possibility that this might pursued as a matter of priority. work in his community. I absolutely understand the Question put and agreed to. hon. Gentleman’s point about footfall. That is why the discussions are continuing—to see whether this will work in that particular location. As I say, the pilots 9.12 pm elsewhere have proved to be highly successful, so it is important to be open-minded. House adjourned. 1WH 13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 2WH

action in 2011, the average was something like £221,000? Westminster Hall There has been a significant drop under the Government’s procurement rules. Tuesday 13 March 2012 Mr Slaughter: I cannot say that I will keep away entirely from party politics in what will be quite a long [MR GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] speech, but I will try to make a point with which I hope Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) all hon. Members agree. The hon. Members whom I shall refer to come from both sides of the House. I take Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting the hon. Gentleman’s point but would rather that he be now adjourned.—(Mr Newmark.) addressed his comments, and that the Cabinet and other Ministers would address themselves, to the current 9.30 am abuses, rather than playing some sort of tit-for-tat Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): It is a game. great pleasure to be here, Mr Howarth, with so many hon. Friends and hon. Members, for what I hope will be Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): an interesting, if somewhat controversial, debate. It is a On the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I look forward Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), will the hon. Gentleman to the Minister’s response to some of my specific points, at least acknowledge that rocketing salaries in some and to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member public sector jobs are not a recent phenomenon? That is for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson). something that mushroomed in the previous 13 years, To be clear about the topic, I intend to cover three under Labour. closely related issues, which I believe raise the question Mr Slaughter: I suspect that it goes back even beyond of financial, moral and, in some cases, legal abuses in then and that the tradition of public service and people the employment practices of public sector organisations. doing jobs not primarily for the remuneration changed Those issues are absolute levels of remuneration; the in the 1980s, when a lot of moral values went out of the use of consultants—sometimes called interims—and window in the era of Gordon Gekko and Margaret agency and other alternatives to employed staff; and the Thatcher. We could talk about that all night if we avoidance and sometimes evasion of tax by the improper wanted to, but I would rather talk about the current classification of employees as consultants. All three situation—and the issue is very contemporary. At 8 pm often occur together, although not always, and there are this evening on Radio 4, “File on 4” will cover tax often other related abuses. I shall give examples of how avoidance through personal service companies. I think—I that works and use one egregious example from my am never quite sure, with the BBC—that it will cover local authority that has wider implications. some of the same examples that I will give today. The Such practices would be offensive at any time, but brief for that programme begins: when the country is in recession, when many, if not all, “How strong is the government’s commitment to ending schemes workers in the public sector at a lower level are facing set up to minimise tax? A number of schemes have proved pay freezes and when there are hundreds of thousands popular in the private sector, including Employee Benefit Trusts. of redundancies, it is particularly offensive that what I These have been used by football clubs for tax planning purposes, but are now in the sights of HMRC as it attempts to recoup what can only describe as a new elite in the public sector it sees as unpaid tax. But how widespread are these trust schemes appears to be immune to the worries, fears and constraints and why are they so popular with companies that have large of ordinary working life and, in some respects, seems to government contracts? be more comparable with those at the top of the banking As the Treasury reviews tax avoidance by senior government or other private sector industries. The difference is, of employees, it has emerged that employees in other parts of the course, that everyone thinks of bankers—outside the public sector are using payment schemes that keep them off the Royal Bank of Scotland, perhaps—as being in the payroll. There is growing concern that paying public servants private sector and responsible to shareholders. The through personal service companies may be inappropriate.” people whom I am concerned about are responsible to I have received briefings in advance of the debate from us, the taxpayers or council tax payers. the TaxPayers Alliance and the Public and Commercial The issue is not only controversial, but very topical. Services Union. The concern that these issues cause The Daily Telegraph has an article today headed “Council across the political spectrum is such that I could read a chief executives enjoy pay rises as services are cut”. It paragraph from each briefing, seamlessly, without affecting reports: the flow of my argument. That is not something that “Town hall chief executives have seen their pay packets rise by can be said about every topic. as much as £17,000 while cutting front-line services, including The Treasury review, to which the “File on 4” blurb libraries, care for the elderly and bin collections.” refers, is the one announced in the main Chamber on It goes on to point out that the average council chief 2 February by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, in executive is still paid more than the Prime Minister, response to an urgent question from my right hon. with one in 20 earning more than £200,000 last year. At Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East a time of pay freezes in the public sector, the average (Mr Brown). That, in turn, was a response to the exposé relevant salaries in local authorities were £143,995 last of the funding of the head of the Student Loans year, with total pay packages averaging £146,957. Company. The investigation at the time was, I think, by “Newsnight”, but I am now referring to a report in The Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): The hon. Daily Telegraph. The investigation showed that the Gentleman may be right to point out that the average “chief executive of the Student Loans Company, was paid through salary in that category last year was £143,000 and that a private firm he had established rather than being paid direct—a the average remuneration was £146,000; but does he tax avoidance mechanism which could reduce his income tax accept that before 2010, or before the Government took liability by £40,000 a year. 3WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 4WH

[Mr Slaughter] applies in the hon. Gentleman’s case, and if we go down those avenues, we will not get far with this debate. I The disclosure threatens to undermine Coalition pledges to hope that he has not come here today to score points—or crack down on tax avoidance in the private sector and opens to fail to score points. ministers up to accusations of double standards.” Let me return to the urgent question on 2 February. I Heaven forbid! think that it is fair to say that the Chief Secretary was “Documents show the deal was signed off by David Willetts, struggling that day. I think that he was trying to come to the Universities minister, who said in a letter that it had been terms with what had effectively been exposed in the ‘agreed by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury’ Danny Alexander. media a couple of days before. Hon. Members from all Mr Alexander insisted he did not know that the arrangement parts of the House raised other examples. The hon. allowed him to avoid tax, and has ordered an urgent investigation Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) raised the case across Whitehall to see if the practice is widespread.” of the chief operating officer of rural payments. The I am sure that many hon. Members remember that innovation director of the Technology Strategy Board urgent question and that many took part in the debate. I has been referred to subsequently, as have at least could not be there, but I have of course looked at the 25 senior officials at the Department of Health and Hansard and will outline what the review was said to employees of health trusts. entail. After, rightly, quoting the Treasury’s “Managing Public Money” guidance, which states that Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I am “public sector organisations should avoid using tax advisers or sure that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the review that tax avoidance schemes as any apparent savings can only be made my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary announced. Is at the expense of other taxpayers or other parts of the public it not quite extensive in its scope, taking on board more sector” than 4,000 contracts across Whitehall? Moreover, it is and making the bold assertion that already having the effect of terminating some of the “There is no place for tax avoidance in Government”, arrangements that the hon. Gentleman is talking about. the Chief Secretary said in relation to his review: It is, therefore, a review that he should welcome. “I have asked the Treasury urgently to review the appropriateness of allowing public sector appointees to be paid through that Mr Slaughter: Oh, I do welcome the review. I think mechanism”— that the hon. Gentleman may be quoting from The the one used by the chief executive of the Student Guardian article in the debate pack. It said: Loans Company. After being interrupted, the Chief “Treasury review of the extent to which civil servants channel Secretary continued: salaries into tax-efficient private firms is to look at more than 4,000 postings across Whitehall and its quangos—and is expected “I have also asked the Treasury officer of accounts to write to to conclude that such schemes must end for full-time permanent all accounting officers across Whitehall to remind them that all staff, even if the arrangement led to a net financial gain for appointments should, in line with existing guidance, consider the government departments. wider cost of lost revenue to the Exchequer when considering value for money.”—[Official Report, 2 February 2012; Vol. 539, The Department of Health is deciding whether to cancel c. 1001.] contracts paid to at least 25 staff via private firms worth over £4m… The Guardian has been alerted to similar schemes operating Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Will my hon. in NHS trusts and primary care trusts. In one recent case, the Milton Keynes Hospital paid its acting chief executive Mark Friend not go further and say that anyone working Millar via a partnership called Millar Management Associates. directly for the public sector in any capacity should be There is nothing illegal in staff being employed as consultants, employed by, and accountable to, the public sector? especially if they are temporary.” There should be utter transparency about their employment, and we should not have these ludicrous schemes that are Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): While probably to do with tax avoidance and lack of my hon. Friend is on the subject of acting consultancies accountability. in the national health service, does he share my concern about the signal that was sent out by the Imperial Mr Slaughter: As always, my hon. Friend has summed College Healthcare NHS Trust last year when it appointed up my 40-minute speech in about 40 words. I agree with an interim chief executive allegedly on an arrangement him, but I will not sit down. of £2,000 a day for up to 200 days. Does he accept that, with a £35 million deficit, that sends out a very worrying Daniel Kawczynski: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman message to the public? Moreover, does he not think that is making this point about tax avoidance. How does he the fact that the chief executive has now been appointed regard the Labour mayoral candidate, Ken Livingstone, the permanent managing director—I welcome that move and the panoply of mechanisms that he set up to avoid and do not throw any doubts on his competence to do taxation? the job—implies that that consultancy arrangement was wrong? Mr Slaughter: My earlier imprecations clearly fell on deaf ears. If the hon. Gentleman wants to have a Mr Slaughter: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. debate on that subject, he is entitled to request one. This Our constituencies share the world-renowned Imperial debate is not on that subject. It is about people who health care trust. When I was first introduced to the are employed by the public sector—they are actually new chief executive, I assumed that he was just that—a employees—who are receiving, in many cases, high paid chief executive. It was only when I read the articles remuneration, but who are falsifying their employment in The Sunday Times that I understood that he was status not only to make more money for themselves and being paid £2,000 a day as a consultant. I do not know possibly for the organisation for which they work, but whether it was always the intention to regularise his effectively to defraud the taxman. None of those points position or whether it was The Sunday Times and 5WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 6WH perhaps my hon. Friend who acted as a prompt. I am, the unedifying experience of seeing the last chief executive however, pleased that the chief executive, Mark Davies, of Hammersmith and Fulham, which is one of the applied for the job and has now been appointed to the smallest unitary local authorities in the country, retire full-time position. If that is a precedent in removing on a salary of £281,000 a year. That salary had been such anomalies and abuses, I hope that it will be followed. increased by £11,000 in the last year of service—the Going back to the point made by the hon. Member salaries of everyone else in the organisation had been for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert), I do not frozen—in order, I suspect, to enable him to retire on object at all to the review. However, as he will have seen, the maximum pension. The authority would not divulge the issue goes wider than Departments and non- the details of that pension but the House of Commons departmental public bodies. It is my understanding—the Library calculated that it would be substantially in Minister may want to correct me when she responds or excess of £100,000 a year. In addition, he received a even now—that that is the limit of the review at the lump sum payment of a sum much larger than £250,000 moment. Even in the statement on 2 February, my hon. a year. To my mind, that is not where local government Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) should be. asked about local government—a topic to which I will I will return to the issue of consultants. I say again return—and the hon. Member for Warrington South that I am grateful to a number of organisations for their (David Mowat) asked about the BBC. Will the Minister help, particularly the PCS union, which takes an interest update us on whether the terms of reference of the in this subject. review have been extended to cover those areas, what progress has been made so far and when will we see a Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): report? I want to make a point before my hon. Friend moves on from consultants. Before I do so, Mr Howarth, I give The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe early apologies that I have to leave Westminster Hall Smith): To assist the debate in its early stage, I am early as I am on Select Committee business with the happy to confirm that the review extends to all bodies Culture, Media and Sport Committee this morning. that are covered by Her Majesty’s Treasury’s guidance Coincidentally, the Committee will be taking evidence on managing public money, with which Members will from the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, be familiar. That includes all central Government bodies, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage such as Departments and their arm’s length bodies. On (Mr Vaizey), who is the Minister at the Department for the subject of the BBC, I can confirm that the review Culture, Media and Sport who is closing libraries up will not cover arrangements in public corporations, and down the country. Can my hon. Friend just clarify public broadcasting authorities or the publicly owned his earlier comments about chief executives being awarded banks. I hope that that information is of assistance. something like a 17% pay increase? Is that accurate?

Mr Slaughter: That is disappointing. I wish that both Mr Slaughter: It must be accurate—it is in The Daily local government and councillors were covered. The Telegraph. leader of Kensington and Chelsea is paid a six-figure The PCS union quantifies the amount spent by salary. The days of councillors being volunteers or Government on consultants at more than £1 billion; I being paid small amounts have gone. The review should think that that amount is based on figures from the also cover health trusts, non-executive directors of health National Audit Office. Before Government Members trusts, the whole panoply of organisations that surround jump up and down, I accept that the figure paid to the public sector bodies, the Local Government Association consultants has been too high for too long, but that is and the Local Government Improvement and Development not any reason for not addressing the issue. board, because those are the organisations in which The PCS union says that, when hundreds of thousands abuses are likely to take place. We are talking about of jobs are being cut in the public sector and its members bodies that recruit people who have retired from the on low pay are being forced to take pay cuts, it is not public sector and who, because of restrictions on their right that, for example, the Ministry of Justice—an earnings thereafter—such earnings affect pension rights— organisation with which I am reasonably familiar—spent will be prone to adopt these devices to avoid being £43 million on consultants between May and November classed as employees. 2011. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of The figures for high pay in the public sector speak for Offenders Bill, or LASPO, is currently being mauled in themselves. The Chief Secretary conceded that he had the House of Lords, particularly about the issue of cognisance of more than 180 civil servants on packages social welfare legal aid. If that figure of £43 million in excess of £142,500. I commend the work of the were annualised, the cost of consultants to the MOJ TaxPayers Alliance—I have been doing that quite often would effectively pay for the entire cuts in social welfare recently—in publishing the “Town Hall Rich List”, legal aid. So, all the agonising about cuts to citizens which shows that the highest paid chief executives, who advice bureaux, law centres and to the funding for are, I think, in Wandsworth, are on around £350,000 a disabled people seeking advice on welfare benefits, housing year. That list of shame, which is regularly updated and or whatever would be unnecessary, if only the Lord published, is a great public service. Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice could Let me just say, though, that as someone who has address his habit for consultants. spent 20 years in local government, I have worked with some very fine public servants who did not do the job Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I thank the primarily for money. I even had a chief executive who hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene, and I capped his own salary, which is not something that we must say that I have a lot of sympathy with the general see much of at the moment. However, I have also had principle of some of the things that he has said this 7WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 8WH

[Glyn Davies] Minister, when she responds to the debate, will say the Government are taking very seriously. I hope that takes morning, but not with everything he has said. Is his seriously not only the issues about the levels of remuneration opposition to the public sector’s use of consultants and taxation problems but whether the public sector is completely based on principle, even if such use of getting good value for money for the number and type consultants adds to efficiency and does not cost any of consultants that are hired. more money? Even if those situations existed, which in I will give just one other little anecdote about consultants some cases I believe they do, would the hon. Gentleman and again it is an anecdote from my own backyard. My still oppose the use of consultants just on principle? local authority has got rid of 1,800 staff in the last five years—I think that is the figure—and that is a substantial Mr Slaughter: There is a definition of consultants proportion of its work force. A lot of that is related to that I will give—it is not the PCS definition, which I cuts and a lot of it has proved unwise. However, the think is plagiarised anyway: local authority has now cut so many staff that it is now “People who borrow your watch, tell you what time it is and “taking on”—to use the authority’s own words, which it then walk off with it.” uses to defend the number of consultants that it employs— The definition that I will use is: agency staff and consultants, simply because it has got “People who do a specific task, which is needed, usually for a rid of so many PAYE staff. That cannot be the right way short period of time, and which is a particular piece of expertise to run a public sector organisation. that is being bought in.” Let me give another example of what I think we all What we are talking about this morning is—in very know as IR35. Let me talk about a particular case in many cases—absolutely not that, and I will now give the Hammersmith and Fulham. It has received some media hon. Gentleman an example. I hope that it is not a attention, but I am not sure that the full horror of it has typical example, but it is certainly a very shocking been expounded. It relates to a particular gentleman. I example. am sorry to have to talk about individuals, but obviously I will give way once more. this issue is about individuals who have these consultancy contracts. That gentleman is called Nick Johnson. He Stephen Hammond: The hon. Gentleman is being used to be the chief executive of the London borough very kind in giving way. Just before he moves on from of Bexley, on a salary in excess of £200,000. His partner— this issue, I want to ask him a question. He has talked his common-law wife, if that phrase is still in use—is a about the £43 million spent by the MOJ on consultants. woman called Kate Davies, who is the chief executive of Can he tell the House exactly what that £43 million was Notting Hill housing trust, and she is also on a salary of for, and can he say whether there was a public sector about £200,000. They jointly set up a personal service evaluation of the cost if the work for which that money company, or PSC, called DaviesJohnson, to tender was paid had been carried out in-house? I think an for work. I should point out that Ms Davies is still the answer to that question would aid the debate. chief executive of the Notting Hill housing trust, but Mr Johnson is no longer the chief executive of Bexley. Mr Slaughter: I think answering that question would Rather than explaining their situation in my words, I take us off on a siding, albeit an interesting siding, and I will quote from a letter; although it is quite long, am not sure that the hon. Gentleman really wanted to reading from it will save time. It was written by Councillor come to Westminster Hall today to defend that spending Stephen Cowan, who is the leader of the opposition in by the MOJ. If he does, he is very brave, but there it is. the London borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, to the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Stephen Hammond: I just want to know what it is. Government on 16 December 2010, which is some time ago. As far as I am aware, Mr Cowan is still awaiting a Mr Slaughter: Of course, the MOJ pales into response to that letter. Mr Cowan wrote: insignificance beside the Ministry of Defence and what “I was interested to read your view that “Councils could cut are euphemistically—well, perhaps appropriately—known chief executive’s pay” as a means of saving money in these as FATS, which are framework agreements for technical difficult times. You will no doubt have seen this article in the Mail support, and beside the hundreds of millions of pounds on Sunday when it appeared on the 31st October 2010.” that have been spent through that route. The Department The letter goes on to talk about the contents of that for Work and Pensions is another major offender. According article. It continues: to the PCS, “business consultancy services” cost the DWP £18.2 million in 2010-11. At a time when the “I believe that the issue it raises warrants investigation by your Government could not find the money for the future Department and the loopholes that have allowed this to occur jobs fund, that seems to be wrong. I could give a lot need to be tightened. Such measures are likely to result in significant savings to the public purse. The Mail on Sunday reveals how Nick more examples in relation to Government Departments. Johnson ‘receives a total of £310,000 a year, making him what is believed to be the highest paid council-funded official in Britain.’ Daniel Kawczynski: Will the hon. Gentleman give However, this money is a combination of Dr Johnson’s ability to way? draw an alleged £50,000 local government pension as well as invoicing H&F Homes”— Mr Slaughter: I will not give way, if the hon. Gentleman that is, Hammersmith and Fulham Homes, which is the does not mind, because I want to press on and hopefully council’s ALMO, or arm’s length management finish by ten minutes past 10. organisation— As I was saying, I could give a lot more examples “over £260,000 a year. He is able to claim both these amounts about Government Departments, but I think that the because the ALMO’s money is paid to his private limited company point is made and I hope that it is a point that the (Davies Johnson Ltd) rather than directly to him. On the 24th of 9WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 10WH

June 2010, Nick Johnson gave evidence to the Borough’s Housing If this practice is common in other local authorities, I Health and Audit Social Care Select Committee to say that he urge the Minister to consider that this needs to be worked ‘full time’ for H&F Homes and now also LBHF”— looked at as surely as Government Departments are. that is, the London borough of Hammersmith and Following the complaints made by the leader of the Fulham. Mr Cowan went on: opposition, a report from Deloitte was commissioned “Nick Johnson worked as Bexley council’s chief executive. But to undertake an internal audit of the use of personal he retired earlier than normal pensionable age on 4th November service companies across the council and in Hammersmith 2007. This happened after he was deemed to be ‘permanently and Fulham Homes, and in particular the contracts unfit to discharge his duties or any comparable duties as defined between DaviesJohnson and Hammersmith and Fulham by the Local Government Pension Scheme regulations.’ In a note Homes and the council. In summary, the findings were: to Bexley Councillors, the current Chief Executive of that authority explained that an ‘Independent Occupational Health Consultant’ “There is currently no corporate policy covering the use of reached the conclusion about Dr. Johnson’s health and the decision consultants appointed to interim positions or as temporary staff, to retire him was made by ‘the Acting Chief Executive’…However, regardless if they are self employed consultants or operating as Dr. Johnson started work in Hammersmith and Fulham on Personal Service Companies (PSCs); 11th February 2008—fourteen weeks and one day after he retired. We were unable to obtain evidence of any formal, documented Since then he has billed Hammersmith and Fulham around selection and recruitment process being followed for the appointment £700,000…Bexley councillors have questioned why they are paying of any of the PSCs within our sample; a pension to an individual who appears to still be working full For the seven appointments examined that were procured by time… Many people have raised concerns about this.” the Council, we were only able to obtain one agreement; Mr Cowan goes on to quote newspaper articles and For the four PSC appointments within H&F Homes we identified adds that Conservative colleagues argue that Nick Johnson a number of issues including agreements not being available for is good value for money. I think that £260,000-plus is a the entire period of engagement; the absence of signed original lot of money to pay a local government official. I agreements; an agreement with a dissolved company and an question whether such payments have been correctly agreement between the ALMO and the individual rather than the company; monitored. Only recently, the chief executive officer wrote to inform me that Mr Johnson’s company is paid PSC invoices tested were found to be authorised in all instances tested; £950 a day, which equates to an annual salary of approximately £160,000. Departments are required to submit returns detailing all consultancies appointed; however this does not include individuals Mr Cowan then goes on to request action by the covering posts as interims. Therefore there is no complete, centralised Department for Communities and Local Government, listing of all PSCs currently in use by the Council; and which has not been forthcoming. We were unable to obtain evidence of formal performance monitoring of PSCs. 2.2 These findings have led to a ‘nil assurance’ in this area and Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Does my hon. seven recommendations have been made that are currently being Friend agree that what people find so shocking is not implemented. All the recommendations have been accepted by just the huge sums that are being paid out to these the council. Timeframes for implementation are given in the individuals, but the fact that many of the organisations report and range through to September 2011 for all recommendations in question do not even pay their lowest paid employees to have been implemented. the London living wage, and the discrepancy between 2.3 The internal audit identified three individuals in particular the pay at the bottom and the pay at the top is absolutely where the auditors thought that professional advice on tax status huge these days? should be sought, including the contracts in relation to Davies Johnson Ltd that the Audit and Pensions Committee had asked to be reviewed.” Mr Slaughter: My hon. Friend is right. If I have time, It separately looked at the issue of DaviesJohnson. I will comment on the wider trend towards the involvement Although the view of Deloitte is not necessarily that of such private sector companies in the public sector, Mr Johnson was an employee, in words that may come which seems to be something that the Government back to haunt the local authority, it states: intend to encourage. “the application of the tax and NIC regulations in such situations I have calculated, from documents supplied to me, is not clear cut and HMRC may form a different view. Therefore, the sum that Mr Johnson has been paid so far since to this end, we would strongly recommend that, if not done so 2007. As a consultant—as a PSC—to the London borough already, H&F Homes Ltd documents the services provided by Davies Johnson Ltd during this period, which will support the of Hammersmith and Fulham and its daughter tax/NIC application by H&F Homes Ltd and help counter any organisations, he has been paid £957,481, just shy of potential challenge from HMRC should it consider there might £1 million. That was for a series of contracts, but be a case to form a view that NJ was an officer holder and an principally for being chief executive of the arm’s length element of the payments made were solely linked to that of NJ management organisation running the council’s public holding the office of Chief Executive.” housing in the borough, and subsequently as the council’s He held that post for more than three years on a director of housing and regeneration. To my mind, that remuneration of approximately £1,000 a day. is a post of employment, not a post as a consultant. My next point deals with where the investigations are Following that letter 15 months ago in December going now. I urge the Minister to consider how unlikely 2010, the matter was not allowed to rest there, despite it is that organisations such as Hammersmith and Fulham the fact that the local authority wished that it would. will put their house in order. I am sorry to single out Eventually, audit reports were commissioned to look Hammersmith and Fulham, because it is my local authority. not only at Mr Johnson and DaviesJohnson, but at the I am sure that the same malpractices occur elsewhere. I wider trend for Hammersmith and Fulham council to pay tribute to local media—the Hammersmith & Fulham employ consultants. I want to put on record the shocking Chronicle, the Shepherd’s Bush blog and the Hammersmith findings about how that local authority conducted itself. Today website—which have highlighted these issues 11WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 12WH

[Mr Slaughter] audit committee asked whether the council should report the DaviesJohnson contract to HMRC, the director of constantly and have been the driving force, along with finance said that the opposition on the council, in getting any movement “given the high profile of the situation in the media, HMRC on the issues. The council remains stubbornly of the would be aware of the situation, and had not approached the view that it will not investigate these matters. It has now Council. If the Council approached them directly, a further instructed PricewaterhouseCoopers, following the Deloitte inquiry would take place, with further impact on officer time and report, to look at whether it is or is not complying with resources. Given the PWC findings, she did not propose to refer the law—in other words, whether it has or has not the matter to HMRC.” broken tax law. The opposition councillor Deloitte has revealed that, on June 30 last year, there “then proposed that the decision to refer or not to refer the matter were 69 consultants working at Hammersmith and Fulham to HMRC be put to the vote. The vote having been tied 2-2, it was agreed, on the Chairman’s casting vote, that the committee should council, 17 of them working via personal service limited not refer the matter to HMRC.” liability companies. It found that Hammersmith and Fulham council had broken all its own rules for hiring Stephen Gilbert: The hon. Gentleman has rightly consultants. There was no evidence of a formal documented given many examples of indefensible salaries and egregious selection recruitment process and no evidence of formal working arrangements, but does he accept that there are performance monitoring. The council had potentially 1.6 million freelancers throughout the country who wasted up to £12 million in this way, potentially operating contribute £21 billion? Is there not a danger of tarring outside UK tax laws with a possible £15 million in the entire sector with the same brush? back taxes, fines and other sanctions that could hit the borough’s finances. That was the reason for bringing in Mr Slaughter: I do not disagree with that point, but PricewaterhouseCoopers at the end of last year, but—this the hon. Gentleman seems to be somewhat in opposition is an important “but”— PricewaterhouseCoopers’ remit to his colleague sitting next to him, the hon. Member is simply to look at the future. It is to look at whether— for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), who this is in the response from the director of finance was tut-tutting earlier about a small business run by the to a member of the audit committee—contracts in former Mayor of London. I hope that they get their Hammersmith and Fulham will comply with tax legislation ducks in a row. in future. What it should be looking at is whether it has done that in the past. If it will not do that, HMRC However, I have moved on from that point; I will should. draw my remarks to a close in a moment. I am now dealing with a different point: public authorities had it There was a council meeting on 29 February. The drawn to their attention, if they did not know it at the motion put by the opposition stated: time, that they might be in breach of UK tax law, and “This council is committed to full cost transparency wherever are covering it up, refusing to engage with HMRC and possible to enable tax payers to hold us to account. This council making every attempt to suppress that information. notes that it has employed 540 agency workers over the past That must be wrong, and it must be a matter for the year—20% of the directly employed workforce. Government, and above all for the Treasury and HMRC. This council has also employed sixty-nine consultants, with almost twenty of those employees working via service limited I do not have time, although I wish I did, to discuss companies. The Local Government Pension Scheme forbids retired A4e and the role that it is playing in the public sector. local government employees from being re-employed in local That organisation has multi-million-pound contracts in government. However, a personal service limited company allows the public sector. It is taking huge sums of money and this rule to be side-stepped. paying its chief executive huge sums of money, and it is However, there are clear rules laid down by Her Majesty’s now under investigation on five separate counts of Revenue and Customs about what defines a consultant and there fraudulent activity. McKinsey, too, was exposed three is a likelihood that the London Borough of Hammersmith and or four weeks ago in The Mail on Sunday for the role Fulham may have breached those rules in directly employing that it is playing in promoting the private health care people to work in its management structure as “consultants” via industry.Again, to use an example from my own backyard, personal service companies. the Association Of British Insurers and the insurance This Council therefore resolves: industry have been pushing their own agenda with the 1. To inform HMRC of all cases where it has employed Ministry of Justice in the drafting of the legal aid Bill. individuals via personal service companies and ensure its tax Those are all more than warning signs; they are indications obligations are met and up to date that something is seriously wrong in public procurement, 2. To report to Cabinet and the Audit and Pensions Committee and the Treasury above all must handle it. full details of any back-taxes and fines issues by HMRC on IR35 The two most infamous names in local government in 3. To review its use of agency workers looking for more cost my lifetime were probably Poulson and Porter. What is effective means of employing individuals and to publish all details happening in my local authority has overtones of both. of agency workers employed by LBHF and/or its subsidiaries and details the salaries of all of those over £100,000 per year.” First, it involves a cabal of people who seem intent on feathering their own nests and earning huge sums of That was proposed by the opposition and voted down money from the public sector. Secondly, the project in by the administration. which Mr Johnson is engaged involves the sale of two The final and perhaps the most shocking matter is council estates for £100 million to a private developer so this. I have dealt in some detail with the DaviesJohnson that they can be demolished to make way for luxury contract, as it is such a significant contract—more than homes. The project will benefit the developer and £1 million was paid to a private company—and because Mr Johnson, but not the thousands of my constituents, it opened the door to the other abuses occurring in the mainly low-income, who live on those estates. Whether authority. However, when an opposition member of the or not it is legal is not the point, although I do hope that 13WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 14WH there will be a proper investigation into the issue of tax certain cases, to keep a roof over their heads and those law by HMRC, to which I have written; it is clearly quite of their family. All of us who work in the public sector wrong. must bear that in mind. I pay tribute to the media. For every issue that I have I am participating in this debate because I want to introduced in my speech, I have referred to a media raise something specifically with the Minister. I went to article. The campaign has been driven by papers from Pontesbury village hall in my constituency to meet first The Guardian to local newspapers, by blogs and by the responders, people in remote rural Shropshire villages BBC. They have done the job that the Government who respond to emergency cases before an ambulance should be doing. I thank all those in the media who arrives. In many cases, they save people’s lives. It is the have taken the trouble to investigate the matter, and I big society in action. I found out on Saturday that there urge people to listen to “File on 4” this evening. are 144 such responders in Shropshire, and I pay tribute I also pay particular tribute to the councillors in my to them. Someone said to me at that public meeting that borough—I am pleased to see that one of them has the chief executive of the west midlands ambulance attended this debate—including the leader of the opposition, trust earns £180,000 a year. I was absolutely staggered Councillor Cowan, whom I have quoted extensively. by that, bearing in mind that a lot of the work carried However, we cannot rely on volunteers and newspapers out by the first responders—as I have said, they are all alone to ensure probity, fairness and economy in the part of the big society in action—is charitable work. public sector. I hope that the examples that I have given They are on a shoestring budget and yet provide a vital today are sufficient to show that something is seriously service. wrong, not just in the one or two examples that have I telephoned the chief executive of the West Midlands been debated previously in the House and not just in Ambulance Service NHS Trust following the meeting central Government Departments and quangos but because of the concerns raised by that constituent at the throughout the public sector. I hope to hear from the public meeting in Pontesbury, who said to me, “We do Minister that she is serious about tackling it and will the work primarily from charity. Did you know that the talk to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury about extending chief executive of the ambulance trust is on £180,000?” the remit of the review to cover the matters that I have There was anger, frustration and bewilderment from my mentioned. constituents, who were all there in a voluntary capacity, undertaking a vital role in teaching people how to be Several hon. Members rose— first responders. Even I was taught how to resuscitate someone while I was there—not that I want to put it Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. Before I into practice, of course, for fear of hurting someone. I call the next speaker, it might be helpful if I make two was extremely impressed with what was going and comments. First, there are 44 minutes left, and quite a worried about my constituents feeling upset about the number of people wish to speak. If Members are disciplined high salary. about putting their arguments, we might be able to get everybody in, and I will certainly try to do so. Secondly, I telephoned Mr Marsh, the chief executive, to ask I should draw hon. Members’ attention to the title of him how he could possibly justify earning £180,000 this debate, which deals with excessive pay and the use a year, which is a staggering amount. His response was, of consultants in the public sector. Tempting though it “I do a very important job.” Of course he does an might be to introduce topical examples of people’s important job—managing the West Midlands ambulance income and tax arrangements, unless those people are service is an extraordinarily important job. However, I already working in the public sector, it is not within the tried to convey to him that it is no more important than terms of the debate. the job of the Prime Minister, a point that the hon. Member for Hammersmith alluded to at the beginning 10.17 am of his speech. Why should any public sector employee be paid more than the Prime Minister of the country, Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): who has a huge amount of responsibility on his plate? I congratulate the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) on securing this important and timely Police and crime commissioners will be elected in debate. I speak as somebody who has worked in both November. My understanding is that the police and the private and public sectors. I started my life after crime commissioner for our area in Shropshire will be university in the private sector. I spent a great deal of remunerated somewhere along the lines of £100,000 per time trying to secure as large a salary from my bosses as annum, which I am pleased about. That is a far more I could, always pushing for a better company car, health suitable salary for people in the public sector rather insurance, ever greater bonuses and shares in the company. than sky-high, rocketing salaries. I felt that that was fair and appropriate, as the company The issue is not just about mega-high salaries for was making a great deal of money, I was contributing individuals, but about how even small organisations to that wealth and the shareholders were happy to pay manage taxpayers’ money. One parish council in my that sort of remuneration. constituency, Bayston Hill parish council, manages to Having come into the public sector, I think that those spend £43,000 per annum on administration costs and of us who work in it should not be thinking about the salary of a clerk—this is just one parish council. We trying to make a lot of money. It has a lot to do with all have a responsibility to acknowledge and accept that mindset and with educating people about the different our wonderful country is on its knees financially, and responsibilities involved in working in the public rather we all have to take responsibility in ensuring that debts than the private sector. One must never forget in the are paid off and that salaries are reasonable. public sector that one’s salary comes, in the main, not I am conscious of the time, so I will end by talking from wealthy people but from extraordinarily hard-pressed briefly about my concerns about the pay of certain BBC families who are struggling to pay their bills and, in executives. My understanding is that Mark Thompson 15WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 16WH

[Daniel Kawczynski] article in The Guardian on 16 February states that many people who are being paid through private companies is on a salary of more than £600,000 per annum, which and who are avoiding paying tax at source I find—I will go as far as to say this—nauseating, “are listed as full-time legal, IT or human resources consultants. deeply distressing, worrying and troubling. At a time The department said many of them had been employed for a long when BBC Radio Shropshire is facing cuts—not a time, and appear on staff directories.” single person in that entire organisation is paid more Such people are, for all intents and purposes, full-time than £55,000 per annum, and it is a wonderful service employees—of the national health service, in this particular that provides many people in our rural county with vital case—and yet they are being paid through service services—the director-general of the BBC is earning companies that allow them to reduce their tax liabilities. more than £600,000. I fundamentally object to that. The article says that Departments are complicit in Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): We have just that. It states: heard the exposition of Kawczynski’s law—that one “The arrangement can be tax-efficient both for the individual squeezes as much from their employer as they possibly and for the Whitehall department, including arm’s-length bodies, can, including company cars. Surely the director-general since the department may not need to pay national insurance in of the BBC is merely following the sound and good addition to fees.” advice of the hon. Gentleman? My concern here is that Departments, which are paid for by tax and whose revenues are collected by the Daniel Kawczynski: There is an important distinction. Exchequer, seem to be colluding to reduce the amount I was working in the private sector, with shareholders as of money paid to the Exchequer. Will the Minister private individuals. Mr Thompson works for the BBC, respond to that, or at least look at the issue? When she which, by the way, forces millions of people up and conducts her review, will she specifically respond to down this country to pay for TV licences. I have applied that? Am I alone in thinking that there is something for a debate on the rationale and efficiency of the way in peculiar about a Whitehall Department seemingly colluding which that tax is collected. There is a fundamental with the private sector to reduce the amount of tax difference. payable? Is that practice acceptable? Should we be I am grateful for being called, and I end my speech encouraging such practice? now so that other hon. Members may speak. Stephen Pound: My hon. Friend came into the House 10.24 am the same time as I did. He will remember, as I do, the huge debate on IR35 at the time, which I thought had Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): This is the first time that addressed the issue. Is he as shocked as I am to hear I have participated in a debate under your chairmanship, today, and to read in the sheets of that august organ, Mr Howarth, so I am pleased to be here today. I Private Eye, that a golden carousel fuelled by avarice is congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith spinning chief executives from one fleshpot to another, (Mr Slaughter) on securing this important debate. letting them fill their boots on the public purse without In response to concerns about the time, I will make even pausing for breath? Does he agree that that should just two quick points to add to the forensic examination have been sorted years ago? I thought that it had been by my hon. Friend regarding public sector pay and the by IR35. use of consultants, and I would like the Minister to consider them. Clive Efford: My hon. Friend is tempting me along a When my hon. Friend opened the debate, he was path that I do not wish to go down because I have intervened on several times, and Members pointed out limited time. However, he has made his point and put it that some of the problems had existed under the previous on the record. Government. I fully accept that. A lot was made of the issue around the time of the general election, and the I will quote from another article in The Guardian then Opposition were right to do so. There were concerns dated 15 February to illustrate my point further. What in the public about the rates of pay that were paid is disturbing about that article is that the officers within through public funds—taxpayers’ money. That is a the Department—whether inadvertently or not—have legitimate issue to raise. Having raised the issue, even failed to give the full facts in answer to a Member going as far as to say in the coalition document that the asking questions specifically about the use of such Government would reduce public sector pay, that there vehicles for paying permanent members of staff in the would be a cap on pay and that a mechanism would be NHS. The confusion seems to rest around whether put in place for agreeing pay that is above the rate of the those people are classified as civil servants, or whether Prime Minister’s salary, it is legitimate to have a debate they are private sector consultants. such as today’s to examine what progress is being made. The series of e-mails that The Guardian quotes from What we have seems to be an approval of a mechanism in the article suggests that there are attempts within the for avoiding tax and paying higher salaries for the Department to facilitate that sort of arrangement. I performance of tasks and roles that are paid for out of find that alarming. The answer provided failed to give the public purse. There is a certain irony in that some the full facts to the House. The article states: of the mechanisms seem to allow payments that end up “The emails handed to the Guardian also show senior civil reducing the amount of tax that is available to pay for servants at the department discussing the possible reputational the services in the first place. We are talking about damage to the department and seeking to avoid ways of revealing people who are recognised to be on the payroll, but the nature of the payments sought in a written question last whose salaries are paid through private companies. An December by Gareth Thomas, the shadow Cabinet Office minister”. 17WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 18WH

The Guardian goes on to say that the answer to the vast majority of the public, the scandal has been that, at question from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow the time of entering austerity, a number of people in the West (Mr Thomas) stated: public sector were getting paid well beyond their perceived “It is not the department’s policy to permit payments to civil performance. Although I was chided for using this servants by ways of limited companies.” example, it is absolutely true that, since the Government That led to the belief that no civil servant was being have come to office, there has been downward pressure paid through such a mechanism. However, it transpires on the overall pay in local government. Again, I give the that there is an issue surrounding the definition of a example that, before 2010, £221,000 was the average civil servant. A civil servant is someone who is on salary for chief executives. It is now £143,000, which pay-as-you-earn, rather than someone who is being may well still be too high in terms of what is being paid through one of those mechanisms. Therefore, the delivered. None the less, there has been downward answer was entirely misleading. Whether that was deliberate pressure. The TaxPayers Alliance “Town Hall Rich or not, we need to have some answers to that practice. List” is a good touchstone for us all, but one should not Do the Government think that that is a satisfactory forget to put the matter into context. Under the previous definition? Alternatively, does it need clarification so Administration, we had to revise the definition of public that when hon. Members seek answers in the future sector productivity twice, because pay increased without about how people are being paid, we get accurate answers? a commensurate increase in performance. We can then be the scrutineers of what is going on with I want to put some balance into the debate because if public sector pay and how much public sector money is we are not careful, we will end up saying that all being used. With that, I conclude my speech. contractors and freelancers are bad value and try to evade tax. That is simply not true. The skills that some Several hon. Members rose— of those people provide contribute a huge amount to Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. It might not only the economy, but the public sector. That is be helpful if I say that I intend to call the Opposition clear. The public sector needs all sorts of skills in spokesperson at 10.40 am. I call Philip Hammond. addition to the work that dedicated, hard-working public servants and public sector workers provide. Some 1.6 million people in the UK work as freelancers. The idea that all 10.32 am those people are tax dodgers is simple nonsense. Oxford Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Thank you, Economics has made the point that, in 2009, the overall Mr Howarth. For the record, I am Stephen Hammond— benefit to the economy was around £21 billion. Philip is the tall, good-looking one. I listened carefully to your strictures and have therefore ditched my section I want to touch briefly on the review that the Chief on people seeking to re-enter public life and avoid tax. Secretary to the Treasury has set up. That review started At the outset, I remind hon. Members of and guide because of the Ed Lester case and the fact he was given them to my declared interest in the Register of Members’ special concessions. However, the idea that all those Financial Interests. concessions apply to every individual who is a freelancer in the public sector is simply wrong. We should not I have listened carefully to the debate. I only wish that forget—I say this to the Minister, as I hope she will I had known my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury address this point—that the reason why a number of and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) sooner, as I could freelancers put themselves into limited companies is have followed Kawczynski’s law when I was in the that the Government procure through agencies rather private sector, but I singly failed to do so. I also listened than directly. Those agencies require that the contract to the fascinating opening speech of the hon. Member goes to a limited company. The Government need to for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter). He chided us on address that in their review. party politics, but I say gently that it might have been helpful if some of the examples had not been exclusively I want to allow my hon. Friend the Member for from Hammersmith and Fulham. On that basis, we Hexham (Guy Opperman) time to speak, but I should might take his comments as a party political contribution. like to say that, although I support what the Chief I shall raise three points in my remarks. First, I shall Secretary is saying, I hope that the Treasury will ensure discuss the concept of value for money. I shall then talk that the review focuses on value for money. That is the briefly about excessive pay and contractors. Many of us key. The danger is that contracts will be delayed and feel that one of the big areas where problems arose with taken away and that it will become a witch hunt, rather value for money in relation to outside firms being used than a proper review of value. I hope that the Minister in the provision of public services was with the private can reassure us that that is what will finally happen. finance initiatives that were set up. The public sector I did not catch exactly what the hon. Member for should be the enabler. Sometimes, it will also be the Ealing North (Stephen Pound) said, but he mentioned facilitator, but it does not need to be so. The real IR35. The Government rightly set up a review of IR35, scandal of excessive pay and excessive failure to manage but I say to the Minister that there is real concern that arrangements was in the unitary payment scheme set up HMRC’s fairly simple business tests, which would have under PFI. That unitary payment allowed the capital allowed a relatively clear definition of someone who is a and the current payment to be collided for the deliberate freelancer or someone who is working full time, are obfuscation of what was being paid in current payments. going astray. I therefore urge the Treasury to get back That was a real scandal, and value for money was involved in that debate to ensure that the tests are clear, impossible to assess. because IR35 could be a good way to ensure that people On excessive public pay, the hon. Member for working in the public sector are true freelancers and Hammersmith is absolutely right: payment should be in contractors, not people who should be on the full-time line with performance. As reflected by the view of the books of the public sector. 19WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 20WH

10.39 am more than those at the top. The Minister will recall that Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I have 60 seconds I raised this issue last week at Treasury questions. I to change the world. In my respectful submission, no asked what the Government are doing to ensure that one should earn more than the Prime Minister, the lead they deliver on their promise that the lowest paid public general in Afghanistan, the Lord Chief Justice or my sector workers receive the £250 a year pay rise that they local chief constable. The issue of excessive pay is raised believed they were going to get. We also need to ensure on the doorstep in the north-east, and should, frankly, that we do not have a further expansion of excessive pay be addressed. at the opposite end. The Government are right to raise the tax threshold Perception is an issue. The public understand that to £10,000, but I would like to go further. No one—at people whose primary job is with a local authority or all—who earns the minimum wage and works a standard public body—whether nationally or locally—and who week should pay tax on their income. That would take it are being remunerated by it, should pay their fair share slightly beyond the £10,000 threshold. I support the and be involved in a proper, transparent arrangement. work of the TaxPayers Alliance, the High Pay Centre, The public become concerned when it looks like individuals the High Pay Commission and the campaign against or companies have set themselves up in a particular way excessive executive pay—organisations that I work with to benefit themselves financially, and are not paying regularly. their fair share. I finish my 60-second bid for glory on executive pay in the public sector by saying that, while I support a lot In response to points made by the hon. Members for of what the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) Shrewsbury and Atcham, for Wimbledon (Stephen said, it must be acknowledged that we are clearing up Hammond) and, in his brief contribution, for Hexham the mess of a light-touch regulation regime and the (Guy Opperman), I do not think that anyone is suggesting problems relating to Mr Thompson’s £600,000-plus salary, for a moment that everyone who is self-employed, works which not a single member of the BBC whom I have as a consultant or in such organisations, is “at it”, to use ever met could possibly justify. a term used on the streets of my constituency. There are many people who add value, who can offer very specialist 10.40 am knowledge and expertise and who can be paid through appropriate contracts in the public sector. However, Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- there is genuine concern about some of the arrangements, op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship which we heard about in the forensic contribution by once again, Mr Howarth. my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, whereby I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for it is clear that people are contracted to do a particular Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) on securing the debate job and, in any reasonable definition, would be seen as and on giving us an extensive and forensic tour around employed by the public sector. local and national concern. He said that his speech would be both interesting and controversial. Actually, it Some hon. Members mentioned IR35, which not has been helpful that there have not been too many only affects people in the public sector—I do not intend controversial issues. Perhaps there is more agreement to deviate from the subject of the debate other than to than disagreement, notwithstanding some party political mention the review of IR35—but many small businesses. points. My hon. Friend talked about the financial, the There many situations where people, who are either moral and the legal practices in relation to some contracts self-employed or in small businesses, find themselves at in the public sector and to absolute levels of remuneration. odds with HMRC when dealing with definitions of how They have been reflected in the contributions of various tax should be collected and paid. I hope that the Minister hon. Members. He was clear that he was most concerned will say a bit more about the progress on IR35, and how to focus on deliberate avoidance and evasion and the it will be modernised and changed. A quick look at the improper use of the rules, or attempts to use the rules Treasury website showed me that, far from the situation improperly, to benefit individuals. being simplified, there were about 40-plus—I lost count— I have worked in the public sector. It would never different guidance notes on IR35 that would have to be have occurred to me, when I worked in a senior post of interpreted to decide whether someone was an employee a local authority social work department, to set myself or not. That is not helpful and gives rise to speculation up as a company and contract my services to that local that such guidance is not necessarily there to help authority. I was brought up—this was mentioned by a people, but to help people avoid the payment of taxes. number of hon. Members—with a public sector ethos Many small businesses feel that they are currently being that recognised that working in the public sector made pressed, unlike some of the arrangements we have heard us accountable to the local taxpayers who paid our about this morning. wages. I am conscious of the time, so I will not go through, The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel point-by-point, everything that was raised. Clearly, there Kawczynski) made a distinction between the private have been situations over a number of years—I do not sector and the public sector. I hope that he feels that the think that anyone particularly wanted to make a party private sector ought to have a set of business ethics. political point—and the general public, understandably, Everyone operating in the private sector ought to take feel that they are taking the pressure to do their bit on account of that. It is not simply about squeezing as deficit reduction. I do not always feel that we are all in it much as possible out of employees because they happen together. It is not fair that those on the lowest pay are to be in the private sector. set to lose some of their benefits. As was pointed out, We heard that people are angry about such arrangements. those on the lowest pay are feeling the squeeze and do They are angry because they feel that low-paid workers, not have a living wage. We are not focusing on pay at the particularly in the public sector, are suffering the squeeze top or the ratio—the difference—between those on 21WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 22WH the lowest pay and those on the highest pay in the public The Government asked Will Hutton to review senior sector. We should do everything possible to ensure that pay in the public sector. The Government accepted his there is openness and transparency. recommendation that Departments publish a top-to-median There is a place—perhaps not all my colleagues agree— pay multiple each year, and Departments will include for using specialist expertise and consultants on a short-term that as part of their annual reports from this year. basis to add value to the public sector, but that must be Likewise, the Government are also clear that any done openly and transparently, with proper processes in consultancy arrangements in the public sector should place. We should never allow people to use the rules and provide good value for money.In May 2010, we announced regulations to avoid paying the appropriate tax or to that the Cabinet Office and the Treasury would join benefit themselves—that is not what the public expect. forces to drive out waste, through a new group called Finally, I have already mentioned IR35. Will the the Efficiency and Reform Group. One of that team’s Minister say what action has been taken to ensure that, first priorities, with immediate effect, was to freeze all across local authorities, there will be no other examples new consultancy spend unless it was an operational of the type of practices that give rise to public concern? necessity. Where such spending was proposed, ministerial What will the Government do to monitor them in the sign-off was required for £20,000 or above. This spending future? control remains in place. Because of that decision, in the 10 months from May 2010 to March 2011, £870 million was saved through a reduction in consultancy spending 10.49 am by central Government. I am sure that hon. Members welcome that. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe On tax avoidance by senior staff, which has been of Smith): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, interest to hon. Members throughout this debate, the Mr Howarth, in an important debate to which hon. Government have been clear that we are committed to Members have contributed with some thoughtfulness. I tackling all forms of tax avoidance. We do not believe should like to mention my entry in the Register of that tax avoidance is appropriate in the public sector. Members’ Financial Interests for 2009. Indeed, it is expressly forgiven—[Interruption.] It is Hon. Members are aware that we face a tough challenge expressly forbidden—I hope Hansard can hear this—in to repair the damage to our economy resulting from the a document entitled “Managing Public Money”, which recent crisis. Restoring the economy to prosperity requires I know hon. Members have as their bedside reading. restraint in many sectors of society. It is right that The hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) asked public sector pay restraint plays a part in that fiscal whether an NHS trust would be covered by that guidance consolidation. I shall start with general pay restraint and I confirm that that would be so. All bodies covered and then refer to various areas mentioned by hon. by that guidance are covered by the Chief Secretary’s Members. review, which has been mentioned in the debate. I am confident that all hon. Members agree that The review occurred after it came to light that a public servants do a crucial job delivering the high-quality senior public servant had been appointed in way that public services on which we all rely. It is right that we could be perceived as minimising his tax. The Chief continue to offer rewards to those who have skills that Secretary therefore announced a review of the tax would help and assist all our constituents who need arrangements of senior public sector appointees. This those services. At the same time, however, given the review will consider the extent to which use is made of pressures on public finances, public pay restraint can arrangements whereby the tax position of appointees help to protect jobs and services in the public sector. can be perceived to be minimised, and will make appropriate That is why, in the June 2010 Budget, the Chancellor recommendations. The review will include individuals announced that there would be a two-year pay freeze being paid through PSCs, to use an abbreviation relevant for public sector workers earning more than £21,000. At to this debate. the autumn statement, the Chancellor announced that, Several hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the for the two years following the freeze, public sector pay Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), have awards would average 1%. mentioned that there is much complexity here that the On senior pay restraint, it is particularly important, review should reasonably take into account. The review in a context of overall pay restraint, that senior managers is not intended to be a witch hunt. show leadership on pay. That is why, at the first meeting The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun of the coalition Cabinet, Ministers announced that they (Cathy Jamieson) asked specifically about IR35. She would take a 5% pay cut and that their pay would be will know that in the Budget last year, following a frozen for the rest of the Parliament. In May 2010, it review by the independent Office of Tax Simplification, was announced that the number of senior civil servants the Chancellor announced that IR35 would be maintained, receiving bonuses would be reduced by two thirds, but that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs will take which I am sure hon. Members welcome. At the same forward options for improving its administration. That time, it was also announced that the Chief Secretary to is a separate point, but I hope that that answers the hon. the Treasury would sign off any appointments for those Lady’s question. earning more than £142,500, in areas where Ministers control pay. Of course, much of what we are discussing today can only cover the areas where central Government Cathy Jamieson: I thank the Minister for that have control over pay. There is a certain amount of clarification, but I hope that she offers slightly more complexity in that landscape to which I may not have information in terms of how the administration will time to do justice, but I hope that hon. Members will be improved and whether any of the guidance will be understand what the Treasury could comment on today. changed. 23WH Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)13 MARCH 2012 Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) 24WH

Miss Smith: I had better write to the hon. Lady, not law to get such documentation. If councils are going to being able to cover that matter under the terms of abuse the position of trust, surely the Government and today’s debate. HMRC must act in this matter. The review is due to report to the Chief Secretary by Miss Smith: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman feels that the end of March, so hon. Members will understand the council was better off under his watch, when it was that I cannot comment further at this time. 363rd in respect of value for money out of 387 local authorities. Local government is outside of the scope of the review, although I hear the points made by the hon. Let me provide one example of ways in which local Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), including authorities are now more transparent. I have no doubt his wish for the review to go wider. He will know that that the good citizens of Hammersmith enjoy holding the Secretary of State for Communities and Local the pay practices of the council to account through Government has written to the Local Government measures under the 2011 Act. They can do that because Association to urge it to consider similar action. local authorities are obliged to publish their pay policy statements by the end of March. It is right that light should be shone upon practices in On the responsibilities that I am drawing attention the local government sector as well, albeit that central to, the Government believe that there should be public Government do not control pay in local government: it accountability in this regard, not only for employees but remains, rightly, a matter for local authorities. We have for elected councillors. The responsibility for meeting taken several steps to bring greater local accountability the transparency that we all demand of the public and transparency to pay in local government, which I sector rests not only with locally elected councillors think local taxpayers welcome strongly. They now have through some of the measures in the 2011 Act, but with the tools and information needed to hold their councils citizens who are now empowered to understand more and elected councillors to account, through the Localism about the choices that their councils take. Act 2011. It is right that, as we call time on a decade of ever-increasing centralisation, targets, levers and poor value for money, greater localism must come with greater Mr Slaughter: I hear what the Minister is saying and I transparency and accountability. Opening up the pay look forward to the review, but will she at least hold deals of top town hall jobs to public scrutiny will mean open the prospect of widening its ambit, because what that taxpayers know with certainty that their interests she has just said is not correct? In my experience, in my are being protected, complementing measures taken by local authority, the audit committee is not meeting—it central Government to control and cut consultancy is being made inquorate by the majority party—and spending under their areas of responsibility, while also documents are being refused, not only to me but to the freezing and tackling excessive pay elsewhere in the leader of the opposition, who has particular rights in sector. 25WH 13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 26WH

Work Experience Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is incumbent on Members of the House to support work experience and any tool that we can put into the toolbox 10.59 am to reduce the shocking number of young people who currently lack opportunity. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): It is a pleasure To return to our 1 million unemployed young people, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I am if we compare our situation with that in many European delighted to have been able to secure this important Union countries, we will probably see our figures compare debate on work experience. I am also delighted to see so reasonably favourably. We should, however, never be many hon. Friends and hon. Members from throughout satisfied or content to have one in four young people the House in the Chamber today, to debate a subject unemployed. For that matter, we should never be content that not only is topical and relevant to the recent to have any young people out of work. Recently, we newsfeed but has seen the concept of work experience have started to see policies put in place by the Government turned into a matter of political ideology, rather than of to increase opportunity for our young people. For example, pragmatism in how to help our young people and create places for apprenticeships have increased by 50% over opportunity for them. I bring the subject to the House the past year, to 440,000; my constituency, I am glad to in all seriousness, and out of concern for many of our say, has had a 56% increase in apprenticeship take-ups, young constituents whose future well-being could lie in more than half by young people. The youth contract, the debate around work experience. I therefore ask right starting in April, will also see many more opportunities, hon. and hon. Members to approach the debate in the including financial incentives for businesses to take on spirit of helping our young people into work from a young people, which I hope will mean the creation of pragmatic rather than what I might describe as an up to 160,000 opportunities—as quoted, I believe, by ideological standpoint. the Department for Work and Pensions, in particular I come to the debate as a parent with two young given the £2,275 wage subsidy to support young people. children. Despite their ages, I am not prevented from Under the youth contract, a number of opportunities being a little concerned about their future and what the are coming along in April, but we should also realise employment market will look like by the time that they that, although we have many opportunities and however step into the big, wide world of work, whether from many schemes we have, there is always a cohort of school, college or university. I suspect that many of my young people who struggle to take up such opportunities, thoughts are not far removed from those of most parents often because the education system has failed them and throughout the country, which is why I wish to consider sometimes because they have low self-esteem or no briefly what the Government are already doing to tackle experience or track record in employment. They might youth unemployment, and to put that into the context have previously experienced employment but had a of the importance of work experience, which will be the poor experience. focus of the majority of my comments. Guy Opperman: Does my hon. Friend agree that the Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate my advance of academies and free schools, such as the hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Does he enterprise school being set up in Newcastle, next to my agree, on pragmatism, that MPs can lead the way? I constituency, will provide greater skills and address employ an apprentice, as part of my team working in youth unemployment problems? the House of Commons, but we can also have work Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. For far experience in our constituency offices—we had 40 in too long a cohort of young people has been failed by the Hexham office over last summer. the education system in this country, and we need to ensure that such people have the maximum opportunity Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, MPs to gain a high-quality education. Hopefully, we will can certainly show the way practically and, as I will reduce the number of people who need work experience. come on to, by supporting people who are willing to Until that happens, however, it is incumbent on us all to give work experience opportunities to our young people. support the principle of work experience, because we Youth unemployment is not a new phenomenon in need to reach that cohort. Figures from the International this country, and it has been on an upward trend since Labour Organisation show that, of the young people 2004, when we were in a better economic position, out of work in this country, more than 50,000 have although getting young people into work should be a never had a formal job and 20,000 have poor or no priority for any Government regardless of the economic formal qualifications. If we are to reach out to that situation. Tomorrow we will see the latest unemployment cohort of young people and if we are serious about figures, and we wait to see the figures on youth getting them back into work and engaging them to unemployment with bated breath. The current figures become part of the mainstream work force, work experience indicate that we have more than 1 million young people is an essential tool to have in the toolbox. unemployed and out of work, which equates to 22% of Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Can the hon. young people in the country. Gentleman define the difference between work experience and an internship, because the two phrases are becoming Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): It is excellent that my increasingly blurred? There is definitely a difference and hon. Friend has initiated this debate but, given what he it is important to state it. What is it, in his view? has just said, is it not extraordinary that we are having to have what is a needless debate? It is extraordinary Mr Jones: I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. that anyone out there should be opposed to young There is a distinction. With work experience, we are people getting work experience. talking about a short-term opportunity for young people; 27WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 28WH

[Mr Marcus Jones] Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for being so generous with his time. To they can be given some short-term experience of work follow on from the point made by the hon. Member for to allow them to get into mainstream employment, Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), does he agree that a often with employers who are keen to take on a certain key reason why the scheme is so important and why number of those who have been on work experience and young people who have taken part speak so highly of it to put them into proper employment. There is a distinction is that the experience that they get and where they are from internships, which have traditionally been used as placed is based on the experience they want in an a method of giving people experience in this place, but industry that they are interested in going into? also in law firms and all sorts of other professions. There is a distinction, and we need to be alive to that. Mr Jones: My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. Over recent weeks, I have been pretty dismayed by Most of the placements that have been offered to the the response to the current Work Experience scheme cohort of young people are relevant to them, and it is offered by the Government in partnership with many of important to bear that in mind. our best companies in this country. I have been dismayed On the debate about the Work Experience scheme by the vitriol towards employers, who have not sought over the past few weeks, and the fact that there has been to create a free supply of labour but, on the contrary, a red herring, or an elephant in the room, about whether have shown a genuine will to give experience and a it is compulsory, we all know that it is voluntary, and chance to young people who, for whatever reason, have that the only sanctions relate to conduct, and willingness not been given that chance elsewhere. to see the placement through when someone has embarked Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I was open to on that route. That is not irrelevant, but it is not the the hon. Gentleman’s comments about not being ideological, most relevant issue. The most relevant issue is to give so I hoped that he would rebut some of the interventions young people, sometimes with what some people call that he has already had, which were extremely ideological. tough love, the opportunity to go out and get themselves On the specific question of the Work Experience scheme, into a position where they can compete in the labour does he agree that the work experience must be relevant market. to the needs and previous experience of the participants? In a moment, I shall discuss employers, but before doing so I want to tackle negativity and ideology, which Mr Jones: It does have to be experience, but I hope are damaging opportunities for our young people. Later, that the hon. Lady is not taking us down the route of I shall use the word “unskilled” with extreme caution. demeaning certain types of employment—I will come There is no doubt that there is a skill in doing any job on to this in a moment—or of being what I call a job properly. I am worried about the rhetoric from some snob. I am sure that she is not seeking to do that at all. people who seek to demean jobs such as shelf-stacking, Over recent weeks, however, we have seen a small cohort because there is no doubt that all jobs are important. of people who have been willing to show a great deal of We all need to start our career somewhere. For some, vitriol towards some of those companies which were that may be shelf-stacking. For some that may be their willing to give young people an opportunity. In the niche, but regardless of that we in the House should debate today and over the past few weeks, we have seen show that any job that is legal and above board should what I consider to be the huge red herring of whether be respected. We need to drive the job snobs out and to work experience is compulsory or voluntary, and that promote the fact that we support all people who work, has been a huge distraction from the real issue. whatever they choose to do or whatever they have to do to make a living and to achieve self-respect. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I associate myself with my hon. Friend’s disappointment at what Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South has happened in recent weeks. Does he condemn those Pembrokeshire) (Con): My intervention is now three or organisations that have sought to spread fear, and have four minutes out of date, but I will make it anyway. organised letter-writing campaigns, with no basis? They Does my hon. Friend agree that work experience is the have made the scheme, which should have been a great ultimate job interview for a job that might not exist success, questionable. Does he welcome the fact that we initially? I am a former employer of work experience seem to have dealt with the issue, that the argument people. Does he also agree that the great value is that seems to have turned around, and that the scheme is enthusiastic and willing people become part of the now being welcomed? team? Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and I agree absolutely. A small number of people—I Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend for his positive emphasise that it is a small number—have put their comment, and he is absolutely right. It is important that political ideology before the best interests of disadvantaged businesses seek to grow their own. Many receive a lot of young people, whom the Government and employers benefit from bringing young people on in that way. He who have taken part in the Work Experience scheme are makes the important point that work experience is often seeking to help. That is disgraceful, and an indictment a job interview. We are discussing people whose CV of the methods that some of the people in that extremist may arrive by post in a pile of 20 or 30 other CVs, and group use. I hope that today we will hear from the the employer may just put it into the filing cabinet, or shadow Front-Bench spokesman that the Opposition write back saying that perhaps they will contact the do not support such groups, and that they support the applicant if a suitable vacancy comes along, or it may Government’s scheme to give young people opportunities. end up in a filing cabinet on the floor, which is usually a It is incumbent on the House to provide as many routes bin. We must ensure that we provide opportunities to as possible for our young people. people who need a leg-up. 29WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 30WH

Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): I me in urging Ministers to ensure that opportunities for thank my colleague from Warwickshire for securing this work experience are offered to older people—particularly important debate. Since I have been a Member of women—who are an economic force to be reckoned with? Parliament, I have had 16 people doing work experience in my office, and I welcome Thomas Hart, who is in the Mr Jones: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. There Public Gallery today. Some employers ignored the protest is a cohort of people who have perhaps looked after activity. How can we encourage more employers to children but are willing, able and capable of returning ignore it, and to take on the scheme in greater numbers? to the labour market although they may lack confidence. In time, the Work Experience scheme could be widened Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend, who, as a fellow in the way that she suggests. Warwickshire MP, knows the importance of getting I also wish to focus on some of the ladies and young people in our area into work. He is absolutely gentlemen of Her Majesty’s press who have perhaps not right that we must encourage employers, and ensure given this issue the fairest of hearings. I appeal to them that they are not frightened of the vocal minority who to dismiss any rhetoric or old-fashioned and outdated seem to put political ideology before young people. views from the far left that they may have, and to think Hon. Members on both sides of the House should about young people and look to support this policy. By support the Work Experience programme. It is not a setting out to try to destroy work experience, all they panacea for the whole youth employment issue, and is will do is destroy a route to work and an opportunity probably applicable to only a small cohort of people for our young people. Work experience is not the be-all who are difficult to get into work. We should all support and end-all for young people, but it is a route into the programme, and back employers to the hilt in employment nevertheless, and Members of this House supporting it. should seek to provide as many such routes as practicable No matter how unskilled—I have said that I am to help our young people into work. worried about using that word —a role may be, new staff cannot be brought into a business, whether or not Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): As I they are doing work experience, without providing training. am sure my hon. Friend will agree, it is welcome that Some young people will pick up that training more many media outlets, notably the BBC, ITV and The quickly than others, but regardless of that, people must Guardian, offer work experience to young people. be trained. All employers will say that. So they must invest time, provide training, perhaps buy a uniform, Mr Jones: I think that is absolutely fantastic. It is a and generally invest in that young person, who may be a shame, however, that some of those who work for the member of staff for only a few weeks. publication to which my hon. Friend referred may not share the same view as that taken by their employer. George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): Does the That is sad, and I hope that people will think a little issue not go even deeper than that? The House should more carefully before making the sorts of comment that celebrate the fact that some companies are a force for may destroy the life chances of the most vulnerable social good. They do not just make profits for the young people in this country. shareholder, but provide an enormous amount of employment across the piece, and ensure that this country Safeguards must be in place and we must ensure that is put on a sound financial footing. We should celebrate we protect young people who may be vulnerable. No that. hon. Member would want any young person to be exploited, but that does not detract from the fact that Mr Jones: As ever, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. employers need positive support and encouragement to When I go out and speak to businesses in my constituency, be offered through the leadership of this House and its I detect that people are becoming alive to the issue of Members. It is, therefore, incumbent on Members of youth unemployment, and that there is a real will in Her Majesty’s Government and Opposition to do all businesses to try to give young people opportunities, they can to encourage employers to offer work experience, whether through the apprenticeship route, work experience and to fight against the small minority of people who or other parts of the Government’s Work programme. seem intent on putting their ideology before the needs We should embrace the good will in businesses throughout of the most vulnerable people in society who need a the country and ensure that we fully support them, not little extra help to get on the work ladder and into a job. demean them or try to make out to the public that they I will conclude by saying that we must move this are trying to get something for nothing. At the end of debate away from the discussions of the past couple of the day, we rely greatly on the good will out there, and weeks and towards the political centre ground and a we must not spoil or stymie that. If we start to go down sensible viewpoint that is shared by most people in this that route, we will defeat the object. Given some of the country. Most people are supportive of this policy, and ideologies expressed, however, it seems that some people I look forward to hearing from the Minister about how are willing to see that happen just because the current the Government intend to support it and ensure robustly Government may not be of the same colour as them, that we do not give in to that small minority. I also look and that seems pretty disgraceful. to the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman to back the policy to the hilt and do the right thing for young Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Will my hon. Friend people in our country. widen his thinking on the issue to women returning to work? I know from my experience of being a stay-at-home 11.24 am mum for seven years that it is unbelievably difficult to get the confidence to return to the workplace. For me, Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): It is a pleasure work experience was the best way to build up work to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I attachment and work habits. Will my hon. Friend join congratulate the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) 31WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 32WH

[Sheila Gilmore] Claire Perry: May I ask the hon. Lady a personal question? My first job was baking bread in a bakery on securing this debate, although despite his claims that at the age of 14. What was the hon. Lady’s first work he would not be ideological, I think that he was ideological experience? throughout. Last Friday, I met a young man in a local community Sheila Gilmore: My first work experience, which was café that is run entirely by volunteers and opens for two paid, was washing dishes in a department store in hours a week. It is quite new, but it has been very Coventry. We have all had such jobs. The point that successful. The young man started to volunteer in that I am trying to make is that, in the case to which I café through an arrangement with his school, as he was referred, it was not the young woman’s first job experience. soon to be a school leaver and had some learning She was not someone who had never worked and needed difficulties. He has since left school, although he has to get from that situation to another. Of course most of continued to volunteer. He told me that as a result of us have experience of different types of temporary that volunteering experience, Debenhams had offered work. him the opportunity for paid work in its city café for four hours a day. I thought that that was a great story Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): The hon. Lady and a wonderful example of what work experience can just said that the lady she was referring to was forced do. into work experience. It is a voluntary programme. Frankly, if the lady is doing work experience, it might When I served on Edinburgh council, we started a involve another skill that she can learn, but it is voluntary; scheme called JET—jobs, education and training—first she cannot have been compelled to do it. in one high school, although it was subsequently rolled out to others. It was for a cohort of pupils who were in Sheila Gilmore: I shall explain the issue as far as this their final year at school but who were likely to emerge young woman was concerned, and I think that this is with very little to show for it, probably because they where it comes down to conditionality. She was certainly hardly ever attended. The pupils and their families were put under, as she explained it, considerable pressure—as approached and asked to sign up for the scheme. They part of a general conditionality point—to do the work had a reduced school timetable; they spent one day a experience or her benefits would be put at risk. That week doing work experience and one day a week at a was how she perceived it. college doing training that was related to that work experience. There were about 20 of those pupils in each Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Is not part of the school, and although I cannot say that they all came out problem that the Minister has repeatedly said, as others with jobs at the end of the scheme—we discovered that have said today, that this is a voluntary scheme, but a lot of them had deep-rooted personal problems—it jobcentres sent out letters telling people that they would was a good programme that involved a period of work lose their benefit if they did not join the scheme? There experience and, importantly, was related to training. is, at the very least, huge confusion in Jobcentre Plus I therefore refute absolutely the allegations that Labour about what the terms of this arrangement are. Members are somehow against work experience or even— this is the allegation repeated by the hon. Member for Sheila Gilmore: That is the kind of information that I Nuneaton—that we are content to leave people stuck in have been getting from constituents. I am referring to unemployment. That is totally wrong. the rules on conditionality and the advice or information that they were getting from the local jobcentre. This Mr Marcus Jones: Will the hon. Lady say whether she point is different from the point about whether people supports the Government’s work experience programme are sanctioned when they leave the scheme; it is about that I spent about 20 minutes outlining? the conditionality regime. Sheila Gilmore: I was about to come on to that, but I Simon Hart: In the specific circumstances that the wanted to establish the importance of correctly managed hon. Lady outlines, what advice does she give her work experience. constituents when they come to her with that issue? What is wrong with the current scheme? To me, the most important thing is that work experience moves Sheila Gilmore: My advice to people in that situation— people away from their current situation and towards the young woman to whom I was referring had already employability, whether or not that involves a job right completed the period of work experience—would be to away. As Ministers and others have said, it is essential to question the relevance or appropriateness of the work get people away from lying in bed or watching daytime experience to their situation. The young lady to whom I TV—anyone who has been the parent of a teenager, was referring did not need to learn those skills; she particularly a teenage boy, will say amen to that. However, already had them. A different question might arise if we there is no one-size-fits-all solution. want to say about someone, “Should they apply for a The first, but by no means that last, example of the job of that nature?” That young woman would have scheme was related to me by a constituent. She was still been qualified for any vacancy that came up of that quite young and had worked in the past. She had nature. Some hon. Members present would no doubt qualifications and had done holiday jobs, but she had say that she should simply apply for such a job, but then become unemployed. Her complaint was that she anyone who has gone for such jobs when they are in that was expected to do eight-weeks’ work experience—the situation will find that they are likely to be turned down shelf stacking that everybody goes on about—and wondered as over-qualified, or employers might think that they how that related to moving her to where she wanted to would leave quite quickly. It is a different question from be or make her more employable. I do not think that whether work experience of that type is useful. They are that is being a job snob. We are mixing up two things. two completely separate issues. 33WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 34WH

Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): Surely, doing there may be a job that is part time and for fewer than the work experience would both display a can-do attitude 24 hours a week. Some people might therefore see such and place the lady in the shop window for the organisation, work experience as valueless, because the job at the end which could ultimately lead to a permanent role. might not pay as much as they would receive on the dole. Sheila Gilmore: I am not convinced, from the young woman’s description of her experience, that she was in Sheila Gilmore: My hon. Friend is correct. Someone the shop window of anything. I should like to quote the spoke previously about an elephant in the room. The chief executive of the Centre for Economic and Social job at the end is probably the biggest elephant in the Inclusion. His view is not that there should be no work room. It is not good enough to say that the whole experience, but that there should be problem is about people not having skills or training “a good ‘match’ between the nature of the work experience and and that, somehow, if we list all the schemes, work the young person”. programmes and other programmes, we have solved the He gives an example. He says that unemployment problem. There are two sides to the unemployment problem. There is the problem of “for someone with a law degree doing work experience at a legal firm would be a much better match than, say, the night shift at a the lack of jobs, which is very considerable in some pound shop. We have learned time and again that the better the areas of the country, and, yes, there are issues about match,” whether people have the proper skills and experience to the better the prospect of someone getting employment. take up opportunities. We need both. To say constantly that we are on top of this because we have programme Brandon Lewis: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way x, y, z and goodness knows what else will not solve the again and being so generous with her time. This scheme problem of the lack of jobs. is voluntary and the work experience that people do is One big issue that we face is that we do not know a lot based on an area and an industry in which they are about the outcomes of the scheme. We are told that it is interested. The hon. Lady is a member of the Select a wonderful scheme and is having great results. Will the Committee on Work and Pensions, but I suggest that Minister tell us when he will give us more detailed she look at what her constituent has brought her, because information about what is actually happening? Ministers she may be getting confused—mixed-up—between the and Back Benchers constantly recite the fact that half work experience scheme and other schemes such as the of those doing work experience are in jobs within a mandatory work scheme, the skills and training schemes short time. That is based on an initial pilot involving and even the Work programme. It seems as though she some 1,300 people between January and March 2011. is talking about a totally different scheme, which is part The more accurate statement—I accept that the Minister of the problem that the Socialist Workers party has had usually gives the more accurate statement, although in purposely trying to confuse the situation. others do not—is that one half or 51%, to be exact, were off benefits 13 weeks after the work experience Sheila Gilmore: I accept that there is a plethora of period. They may have come off benefits and gone into schemes and some confusion—the media have been a job or to college, or simply not have been claiming. confused—but I am absolutely certain that the mandatory For example, someone who has got to the end of their work experience scheme was not involved in this example. six months on jobseeker’s allowance and who has a It is not good enough to have the view that when people working partner may simply stop claiming. make the point about relevant work experience—relevant to people’s existing experience and skills—they should The Minister of State, Department for Work and simply be condemned as snooty job snobs and people Pensions (Chris Grayling): Will the hon. Lady confirm who are not willing to work. That is not the case. that the benchmark that we use to judge the success of the work experience programme is exactly the same Chris White: Does the hon. Lady not agree that benchmark that she and her colleagues used to judge relevant skills would include presentation, punctuality, what they claimed to be the success—it was at a much communication and being able to get on with one’s higher cost—of the future jobs fund? co-workers? Sheila Gilmore: I am not going to dispute— Sheila Gilmore: Absolutely, but we must ensure that [Interruption.] It is important to know a bit more about these schemes build on the experience and skills that what has been happening. All these assertions are made people already have. Of course, some people have not on the basis of a fairly small number. If the Minister worked for a very long time. Some young people have has other information to give us, that is all well and never held down a job. For them, some basic experiences good, but we are not hearing that at the moment. I will enable them to grow, develop and mature. asked him in a written question how many of those who had taken part in the scheme, either between 16 and Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East 18 years of age or between 18 and 25, had found Cleveland) (Lab): I come from a town with 14% employment with the firm with which they had done unemployment; indeed, it has a history of unemployment the work experience or with another employer. The over the past two or three decades. Most people will answer was that the Department does not hold that make any sacrifice, in any way, shape or form, for the information. The Government are not tracking that promise of a job. The problem at the moment is not information. I find that worrying, because assertions necessarily this policy in its totality; I think that it is and statements are being made about the success of a well meaning, although perhaps it has a few kinks in it. programme, but answers to the detailed questions that The problem is the change to tax credits. There may be anyone might reasonably want to ask about these no promise of a job at the end, or particularly in retail, programmes are simply not being given to us. 35WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 36WH

Tom Blenkinsop: May I give my hon. Friend an do work experience without payment is that they may example? The Government are changing the point at be reducing their other employees’ opportunities to do which an employee’s rights kick in and they become a paid work—through additional hours, for example. We full employee with full rights to 24 months. What is need reassurance that that is not happening, and if we there to say that a young person who has got work do not get it, we will have some queries. experience through this scheme and gets a job will not find that the workplace is subject to a short-time-working George Hollingbery: When I looked into the success agreement and that they are probably first in line for a of the future jobs fund, there was much trumpeting of LIFO—last in, first out—scheme, unofficially, by that 50% placements and costs per placement being reasonable. employer, because their employment rights do not kick However, the cost per placement was about £3,000 to in for another 12 months? £5,000, while the figure under the work experience scheme is £200 to £300. Does the hon. Lady not agree Sheila Gilmore: The situation might be even worse that it was somewhat perverse for 80% of the placements than that. At Treasury questions last week, my hon. under the future jobs fund to be in the public sector? Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins), Looking around the piece, that would hardly save the who is not here today, raised the case of two young Government money in the long run. people who had been given a job at the end of a work experience scheme, but who were paid off within two Sheila Gilmore: My understanding regarding those weeks, which is not particularly satisfactory. If we are public sector jobs is that there was, in part, a difficulty not tracking outcomes properly, we should be. If we are over whether the measures would constitute state aid if to judge the validity of schemes, we need the data. they were carried out in some other way. It is regrettable if that became an obstacle, because the future jobs fund Andrew Bingham: Is the hon. Lady aware that 51% of was a good model and gave people good-quality work the first 1,300 people who took part in the scheme were experience. I hope that the Government will consider off benefits after 13 weeks? returning to it in the future. It is not my position or that of any Opposition Sheila Gilmore: That is precisely what I said—that Member that work experience is simply not to be done. 51% of the first 1,300 people who took part in the However, we want people to have work experience that scheme between January and March 2011 were off genuinely improves their employability; if it does not, it benefits. That was the point where I came in. has to be questioned. We have to look not only at the quality of work experience, but at the fact that some firms may simply 11.44 am be using schemes to get people to do jobs they would Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): It is a pleasure otherwise have employed someone to do. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I On a slightly different matter—this does not relate to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton the work experience scheme pure and simple—I was (Mr Jones) on securing this important debate. astonished to read in no less a paper than The Sunday It is important to start off with why we are here. The Times, which is hardly a friend of the left, that McDonald’s scheme, which has worked successfully, has been in had, it seemed to me, reframed its trainee posts as place since January last year, and it is only in the past apprenticeships. It was taking Government money to few weeks that it has gained any publicity. It has been train people in the skills they would need if they got a working very nicely, the companies involved in it have job at McDonald’s, such as customer service and food been taking people on and more than 34,000 people hygiene. Many people, including students and others, have been through it. That tells us that something has have gone through the McDonald’s scheme over many happened in just the past few weeks to bring it to public years and they have gone on to work in McDonald’s. attention. However, people on the scheme are now being designated as apprentices, and I know of one case in which somebody Sheila Gilmore: I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept doing a Saturday job got a contract as an apprentice. that some of us did, in fact, raise questions considerably McDonald’s got the money from the Government and longer ago than the past few weeks, but we were put was quoted as saying that no additional jobs had been down with exactly the same suggestions that we were created. being over-fussy and supporting people who thought they were too good to work. Chris Grayling: Is the hon. Lady aware that she is describing the previous Labour Government’s policy of Brandon Lewis: I thank the hon. Lady for outlining allowing companies that developed in-work training that she supports the Socialist Workers party position places to designate them as apprenticeships? Does she on this. The reality is that the publicity came about a accept that what she is describing originated under the few weeks ago, when the Socialist Workers party started Labour Government and has been deemed—by that a campaign, having placed an advert that was wrong. Government and this one—to be an important part of the career development mix? Tony Baldry: Would my hon. Friend not pass on to the hon. Lady the advice that when one is in a hole, one Sheila Gilmore: Even if the Minister tells me that that should stop digging? is the case, I would not necessarily always accept everything previous Governments have done, because such provisions Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for that are not helping us in any respect to create additional helpful intervention. He has probably said everything jobs. The worry about firms taking successive people to that needs to be said. 37WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 38WH

Over the past couple of weeks, I have debated this offered me work experience, and that led to other issue a few times with people from Right to Work and opportunities. Other young people do not necessarily various other groups that are backed or supported by have those connections and opportunities. It is right the Socialist Workers party. What has been particularly and courageous of the Government to put the scheme noticeable, however, is that there has, until very recently, forward, to give a chance to people who may not have been a lack of Labour Members debating it. It was those contacts. That is hugely important. therefore somewhat surprising, if not frustrating, that We have all perhaps worked in jobs that we have seen when Labour Members started agreeing to come out as only the first step. My first paid job was in a warehouse. during the last couple of days of the real media coverage, I did not particularly want to spend my life working in a they quite openly said that they supported the scheme’s warehouse. I wanted to be a buyer, and move on from principle—I hope the shadow Minister, the right hon. there, but to get into a particular company I needed to Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), will do so take a job in the warehouse. It was step one on the again today—but then complained that the problem ladder. We must encourage the 34,000-plus young people was miscommunication. who have done the work experience programme to feel The miscommunication has come about, however, that they have done a good thing. They have shown purely because the Socialist Workers party and its motivation, and are inspired to go and do something representative protest groups have purposely confused different—to take a step on to the first rung of the things in every single debate. Before one debate I took ladder, and not to expect to jump on to rungs four, five part in, a member of the Socialist Workers party was or six, which too often is the case these days. We should chatting quite happily outside the studio. He understood really congratulate the young people who have had the exactly what the different programmes were and how motivation to get involved with the scheme, as much as they worked. When we went in to debate them, however, the companies that give them the opportunity. It is a he straight away confused the mandatory Work programme good scheme and we should support it. with work experience—he knew exactly what he was doing. It is a real shame that Labour Members did not 11.50 am come out with us, even if they do disagree with the programme, to clarify that work experience is a Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Thank straightforward and simple voluntary programme that you for calling me to speak, Mr Howarth, despite the gives people experience in an industry or field they have fact that I have an awful cold. I hope to get through my expressed an interest in going into. speech without coughing too much. We should remember to congratulate the companies I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton involved in the scheme, and it is great that hundreds (Mr Jones) on securing the debate. I asked for a debate more are joining, thanks to the publicity it has had—we on the same matter in business questions recently. It is should possibly thank the Socialist Workers party for important to use this opportunity to clarify the terminology, giving it that extra coverage. Those companies should which I shall do in the form of a media guide, as it were. be congratulated for doing young people a service by I hope the Minister will confirm my understanding of providing opportunities and experience of a range of the categories. The three that get most confused are issues. They are providing not just the skill sets that Work Experience programme, the Work programme people want, whether that is in engineering, technology, and workfare. retail or any other industry, but the interpersonal skills My experience of the media confusion came when, that Members mentioned and the skills that come with like my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth simply understanding what it means to get up and go to (Brandon Lewis), who is a colleague on the Select work. Last week, The Sunday Telegraph carried a story Committee on Work and Pensions, I was invited on to about people on the work experience programme of a “Newsnight”. The producer said to me, “We are going company in Kent. Those people said how much higher to have one young person with a good experience of their self-esteem was as a result of getting up in the work experience, and one with a bad experience, and we morning and having a project, and most of them were would like you to come and debate it.” I thought it going on to full-time jobs with the company. seemed sensible, but when I turned up there were three We must, however, be careful. The real shame is that people, one of whom was a young person who had had if we do not make it clear what a good scheme this is, a positive experience of work experience. However, organisations such as charities that run work experience there was also a 48-year-old gentleman who was clearly schemes could lose the benefit of them. Through the either in some form of the Work programme, or had Prince’s Trust, I have had people work in my office for a some other experience, and a 40-year-old gentleman. It couple of weeks. They have been excellent people, and did not help—I do not know whether it was deliberate they have used that experience on their CVs and gone or accidental—that the producer had accumulated three on to really productive ways of life, which was perhaps people with experience of different aspects of back-to-work not the case before. A range of charities could be activity. threatened if we are not careful. It would be helpful to use the debate to clarify the The most important people in all this, however, are fact, which does not seem to have got through loud and the young people who take part in the scheme. They clear to certain segments of the media, that the Work have voluntarily said they want to do something with Experience programme is a voluntary one for people their lives; they want to think out of the box and take a under 24. It changes the unfortunate situation that different path. As we have heard, many of us, and many existed under the previous rules. We have heard that the people who work in the media, have had work experience. BBC, ITV and The Guardian offer work experience, I was fortunate enough to do so when I was young often in four-week tranches. Under the previous rules, a because my father happened to know somebody who young person looking for work who was fortunate 39WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 40WH

[Harriett Baldwin] always a risk. The more it is possible to see the person in action, the more the risk is mitigated. An employer will enough to be offered work experience by one of those get some productive work out of a short-term work organisations would have to give up jobseeker’s allowance experience placement, but, to be honest, it is not nearly for taking work experience that lasted longer than two as much as some media commentators have suggested. I weeks. That is profoundly unfair, because we all know, suggest that, for employers, taking part in the programmes as my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth is far more to do with investing in the future and the said, that many perhaps more middle-class families can next generation. afford to subsidise their young person under the age of For the individual, the key advantage of work experience 24 to take that kind of work experience. It is extremely is proving oneself—first to the employer directly concerned, progressive that the Government have changed the rules, bearing in mind the possibility of a job at the end; but, so that now a young person whose family relies on their perhaps more importantly, to any employer, by jobseeker’s allowance can take the work experience demonstrating recent work experience, involving turning opportunities that have been largely the preserve of up on time and undergoing the discipline involved. sharp-elbowed middle-class people. Along the way, of course, people develop skills, and The Work programme is completely different. It is experience a business or occupation that may interest not age-dependent. The Government put out contracts, them. But most of all work experience is an in. It is an which became live last June. The Work and Pensions opportunity that people might not otherwise get. The Committee is looking forward to hearing from the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) said Minister next Monday some of the early indications of that people who apply for jobs in retail know how hard the results of the contracts. Obviously, there is regional it is to get them. Well, yes: one reason is that without variation in providers and who won the contracts. The recent work experience people are far less likely to be important thing about the Work programme is that, considered. Other things being equal, at the same rate rather than being prescriptive about the contracts, the of pay, the risk is lower and the odds of success are far Government have for the first time created a black box: higher if an employer employs someone who is already the providers can do what they find works to get people in a job or who has just left one, than if they take a back into work. It is a completely different kettle of fish punt, as they might see it, on someone who has been out from voluntary work experience for young people. Yes, of work for some time. I suggest that anyone who thinks participation in the Work programme comes about that great employers—great firms with consumer brands when someone has either spent a period on incapacity of huge value—are in the programme just to get cheap benefit or been out of work on jobseeker’s allowance for labour, has never held a supervisory position in a consumer- an extended time, and those activities do tend to be facing branded organisation. mandatory in many cases. That is the second thing that The Government Work Experience programme has gets confused when it is brought into the picture. generated controversy. I have had e-mails from bemused I would like to ask the Minister for clarification constituents about both the opposition and Her Majesty’s about workfare. My understanding is that the Department’s Opposition: the deafening silence from the Leader of use of workfare—having to work while on benefits—is the Opposition has done no credit to the great Labour quite limited, particularly where it is mandatory. However, movement, the party of work. it is a tool that jobcentre advisers have in their armoury. If they suspect, for example, that someone is working Tom Blenkinsop: We have yet to hear from the and claiming benefits, they can use workfare to identify Government Benches about how this policy rebalances those situations. It would be helpful to hear from the the economy and how work experience can be used in Minister whether that is the correct way to define workfare. manufacturing. We hear about employers in the retail I think that there has been media confusion. I hope sector, but I am interested to hear whether manufacturers that in my speech I have created a helpful media guide have taken on people in this work experience role and for any producers out there who may be doing programmes whether, if there have been long periods of such experience, on the subject, and I look forward to clarification of the greater numbers of people in the north-east have been definitions from the Minister. employed in manufacturing in the traditional sense.

11.56 am [MR DAVID CRAUSBY in the Chair] Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): It is a pleasure Damian Hinds: The hon. Gentleman makes a good to see you in the Chair, Mr Howarth. I congratulate my point. I shall leave it hanging, so that the Minister can hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) on pluck it at the appropriate moment. All I would say is securing this important debate, on behalf of the striving that the service industry is an enormous part of the majority for whom work experience is a great opportunity, economy. We all want to see growth in manufacturing, for themselves or their children—something to be celebrated but services are a huge part of the economy in many of and encouraged. our constituencies. Getting work experience in that area I want to broaden the debate slightly to talk about is absolutely valuable in its own right. work experience before children leave school, but before The bemused e-mails that I have been receiving from I do that I want to talk about the Government programme my constituents say something along these lines. “I that has caused some controversy: what it is, what it understand that the programme is voluntary. There are does, and for whom. From an employer’s point of view some advantages to the individual in taking part, but if, it is a fantastic extended job interview, and an opportunity after a period of time—not on the first day but after a to see someone in action. Anyone who has ever taken week or so—they just cease to turn up to work for no anyone on will know that giving someone a job is good reasons, there are adverse consequences.” It is 41WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 42WH called a work experience programme—I do not know appropriate. It may well be that there is a role for both. I about you, Mr Crausby, but that sounds an awful lot also hope that we can consider other ways of augmenting like an experience of work. I pay tribute to the firms and bolstering that work experience. Perhaps we can that have taken part in the programme, particularly have a more formal assessment of that young person’s those that have stood firm and not given in. However, I performance in work experience that can count towards also understand the nervousness of some of the firms their future job prospects. that have issued statements expressing concerns. We all welcome the new media campaigns with which Tom Blenkinsop: The hon. Gentleman makes an we are pleased to communicate on a regular basis. As interesting point. I suggest that we bring in that introduction politicians, we also know that they are not always all to work experience at the options stage, when children that they purport to be. I am probably unusual on the at 14 and 15 are choosing their options for GCSEs, Conservative Benches in being a Guardian reader. Perhaps which usually indicate what career they might be going I was the only Member present who was a little bemused, into. or amused, to read the helpful clarification in The Damian Hinds: I absolutely see that point. That is Guardian that this right to work campaign was not run why I said that there could be a role for both. Even at by a bunch of lefties because it contained not only the the options stage, there is only an opportunity to see Socialist Workers party, but members of UK Uncut one employer, so it will not give a full range of career and the Occupy protest movement. I understand the choices. We certainly need more firms to step up to the nervousness of firms with quarterly results to deliver plate for school-age work experience. There are many and daily revenues to monitor. We need a debate about myths about health and safety compliance and Criminal how some of these campaigning organisations work Records Bureau checks and so on. I hope the Government and about their proper role in society. will turn their attention to encouraging more and more quality employers to get on board with that programme Sheila Gilmore: I can say from my long political and offer more opportunities to young people. experience that if views that might be deemed extremist do not strike a chord with the public, they will simply There is a particular area in which school-age work sink. If some of the criticisms of this initiative, which experience can deliver huge benefits to our country. I have been raised in this House previously, had had no am talking about work in the public sector, particularly resonance with the public— in teaching. The Education Committee is currently conducting an inquiry into what makes a great teacher. Damian Hinds: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. All One of the recurring themes is that everybody knows credit to those organisations for creating a splash over what a great teacher is because they have had one. They the issue. However, I am afraid that they have done it by know it when they see it, but it is very difficult to predict misleading the public and saying that young people are in advance who is going to make a great teacher unless being forced into slave labour when that is absolutely they are seen teaching. I hope we can encourage young not the case. This relates to what I was saying about the people who are interested in teaching, particularly from Opposition—I do not include the small number of the sixth form, to do teaching placements of one or two Labour Members who have come here today. When weeks in a school. By working alongside a QTS teacher, their leader had an opportunity to debunk that theory they will be able to develop their skills and decide and to put the record straight, he failed to do so. It was whether teaching is right for them. Furthermore, qualified a great shame that we did not hear such a view from teachers will be able to assess whether they are well Labour, the party of work. suited to the job. I know that we are short of time, but I should like to Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Just this morning, broaden my contribution to include work experience at I visited the charity City Year, which enables young school. Whenever employers give evidence on the Education people to volunteer for one year to work, unpaid, in Committee, on which I sit, they predictably complain local schools—Hackney schools in this particular instance. about qualifications not doing what they say on the tin Some 86% of students who volunteer get a job after, and about young people not being work ready. Work largely as teachers. readiness is sometimes called employability skills, soft skills or, when the terminological obfuscation gets extreme, Damian Hinds: That is a fascinating scheme. I am not transferable non-cognitive skills. Essentially, what it familiar with it, but I will certainly look it up. As it means is all the stuff about dealing with other people— transpires, that was the end of my remarks, so I will turning up to work on time, knowing the right way to stop. dress, empathy with the customer, smiling and pride in a job well done. All those things can be partly developed Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): I want to call the through work experience. When we ask employers if the two Front-Benchers at 12.10 pm, so I would appreciate situation is getting worse, they often say that it is. We a very short contribution from Graham Evans. cannot demonstrate that it is getting worse. It may be just not getting better, but we are in the business of 12.7 pm economic growth. To achieve economic growth, we Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I will crack on need such things to be improving year on year. with my very short contribution. I am grateful for the We need a debate about the role and quality of work opportunity to contribute to this very interesting debate. experience in schools. It may be that the two-week block I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton in years 10 or 11 is an important part of that, but it does (Mr Jones) on securing it. He is a hard-working advocate not seem to be doing the full job. With the rise in the for his constituents and deserves considerable credit for participation age, I wonder whether moving the bulk of his work. Like his good self, I have a young family, so work experience into the sixth form might be more we both have a vested interest in this topic. I know first 43WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 44WH

[Graham Evans] Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): Order. I ask the Member to wind up quickly. hand the importance of experiencing the world of work. I grew up on a council estate in Poynton and left Graham Evans: I will finish quickly. A record 440,000 my local state school with few qualifications. My first apprenticeships have been created this year alone. There job was stacking shelves in the local Co-op. I went on to has been £150 million of capital spending to support get a job working on nimrods at BAE Systems at improved technical and vocational education. There are Woodford. I was able to study at night school and build ambitions for at least 24 new colleges by 2014 and, of a successful career in manufacturing. The hon. Member course, there are the fantastic education reforms. The for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom future competiveness of our economy depends on these Blenkinsop) talked about opportunities in manufacturing. initiatives. Under Labour, between 1997 and 2010, the number of people employed in manufacturing halved. In 1997, 12.11 pm manufacturing’s contribution to GDP was 22%. In 2010, it was 12%. Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I am grateful to you, Mr Crausby, for giving me this opportunity It is a great honour to represent the people of Weaver to speak. I also thank the hon. Member for Nuneaton Vale. That would not have been possible if I had not (Mr Jones), who has done us a great service by securing been able to get my first experience of work. We all a debate on this very important topic. know how vital work experience is for young people. The Government have got themselves into an The previous Labour Government acknowledged that extraordinary muddle over work experience. Labour and used it as part of their new deal. The evidence is supports work experience. It can be invaluable in even clearer now. Statistics from the Department for reconnecting people with the labour market; it has been Work and Pensions tell us that 50% of all participants a part of labour market intervention since the 1970s; on work experience schemes move off benefits within and it was a key feature of the success of the new deal. three months. Obviously, work experience schemes can Unfortunately, however, the Government have got be a key weapon in the fight against youth unemployment, themselves into a terrible mess. but why is that fight so important? On 29 February, the Minister—in an attempt to As I have said in recent debates on apprenticeships, extricate himself from that mess—announced a U-turn there is a significant correlation between the eastern and that the “Work Experience” scheme was to be fully expansion of the European Union and the increase in voluntary. Previously, he had said that it was a voluntary youth unemployment from 2004 onwards. Despite repeated scheme; I suppose that his announcement on 29 February warnings from the Conservative Opposition at that means that it really will be voluntary. However, his time, the Labour Government decided against having problem is that the letters that Jobcentre Plus staff sent transitional immigration controls. The impact on youth out to claimants said something quite different. He was unemployment has been dramatic. memorably confronted on “Channel 4 News” with a letter that had been sent out to somebody who was If someone wants to understand why youth being told about a placement on a “Work Experience” unemployment has become such a problem, they should scheme; the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon put themselves in the shoes of a prospective employer. Lewis) quite rightly said that there are other schemes, Are prospective employers going to pick a school leaver but in this case the placement was part of a “Work with zero work experience or training ahead of a Experience” scheme. The letter said: 30-something migrant who has extensive work experience? “You have been referred to the following Opportunity: retail Would they take on the risk, costs and effort to train assistant…If you cannot attend for any reason or if you stop young people who are lacking any sort of work experience, claiming Jobseekers Allowance please contact this Jobcentre and who therefore have no way of demonstrating that immediately. If without a good reason you fail to start, fail to go they are reliable, instead of older migrants who are when expected or stop going...any future payments of Jobseekers already trained and have a CV demonstrating a strong Allowance could cease to be payable or could be payable at a work ethic? So it is screamingly obvious why work lower rate.” experience schemes can help to tackle youth unemployment, There is no point in claiming that the scheme is voluntary and I am delighted that the Government recognise that if Jobcentre Plus staff—staff in the Minister’s job centres— and are spending £1 billion on the youth contract to are telling people precisely the opposite. create incentives for employers to create an extra 250,000 work experience places during the next three years. Chris Grayling: Has it crossed the right hon. Gentleman’s mind that nobody would receive a letter unless they had Given some of the utter nonsense that has been volunteered? spouted in recent weeks about these work experience schemes, it is important to remember that they are Stephen Timms: Let me tell him what I suspect is the voluntary. Furthermore, people have an opportunity to source of the confusion. It arises from the decision try out the scheme first before giving a commitment. In maker’s guide, which any Member of the House can addition, it is absolutely ridiculous to assert that businesses read on the website for the Department for Work and are exploiting young people and getting free labour. Pensions. That guide says: There are significant costs for businesses that are taking part: to arrange the placements, to train the people, to “JSA may not be payable or it may be payable at a reduced rate to claimants who are entitled to JSA and have...after being mentor them and to provide equipment and uniforms. notified by an Employment Officer of a place on a Work Experience Businesses that take part should be applauded, not scheme, refused without good cause or failed to apply for it or to attacked. So all Members should get behind the Work accept it when offered, or...neglected to avail themselves of a Experience scheme and the Government’s— reasonable opportunity of a place on Work Experience.” 45WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 46WH

A Jobcentre Plus adviser who is doing their job and muddle and confusion that the Government’s handling looking at the official guidance discovers that that is of the “Work Experience” scheme and the six other what the guidance is—a clear description of a mandatory similar schemes has created. scheme. On mandatory—[Interruption.] Time is running out It is no wonder, therefore, that Jobcentre Plus staff and I want to give the Minister every chance to respond have been so confused and have contradicted what the to these points, so let me just tell the House about one Minister has said. Of course, as we know, a number of of my constituents. She was put on to mandatory work businesses also lost confidence in the scheme. But the activity. She was not a long way from the labour market; muddle goes even further, because the DWP’s provider indeed, after I inquired about her, she received a phone guidance for the Work programme says: call to say that she should never have been put on “Where you are providing support for JSA participants, which mandatory work activity in the first place. The letter is work experience, you must mandate participants to this activity. that was sent to her initially was a classic of This is to avoid the National Minimum Wage Regulations, which incomprehensibility; I sent a copy of it to the Minister. will apply if JSA participants are not mandated”. It instructed her, a resident of east London, to go to an The DWP was saying that until a few weeks ago, but obscure Sheffield postcode, and it said that if she had that particular statement has now been deleted from the any queries she should ring telephone number 000. Her guidance on the website. placement was at a charity shop. When she arrived, Therefore I want to ask the Minister three specific there were 14 other people on mandatory work activity questions. First, now that there are no sanctions in who had also been sent to the same charity shop to help work experience other than for gross misconduct, will out. There was nowhere near enough work to go round, he amend the decision maker’s guide? Secondly, how although presumably all 15 of those people attracted a will he ensure that the policy is now implemented in line payment to the provider from the Minister’s Department. with what he has announced? Thirdly, what has changed Experiences such as that will not help anybody into in the legal position so that work experience no longer work. I ask the Minister: what checks is he making on has to be mandated to “avoid”—to quote the guidance placements to mandatory work activity? In fact, does he that was on his Department’s website—the national know if his Department is being ripped off on a large minimum wage rules? scale, as the example that I just gave suggests? Also, why The “Work Experience” scheme is too valuable to let does he insist on secrecy about all of this, when the this muddle continue. And as we have already heard in openness that is being promoted by the Cabinet Office the debate, there are other schemes apart from the would help to resolve all these problems? This Minister “Work Experience” scheme. In fact, Inclusion says that has some form on this. He has been officially rebuked there are seven different current work experience schemes, for misusing statistics—I think more than any other which may be part of the reason for the muddle. At the Member of the House—including on three separate time that some claimants are starting on the “Work occasions since he has been a Minister. That is a pretty Experience” scheme, others start on mandatory work extraordinary record. activity, which was the scheme referred to by the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth. That may well be another Chris Grayling: On a point of order, Mr Crausby. Is it source of the confusion. As the name of the mandatory in order to make allegations about another Member work activity scheme suggests, it is not voluntary. It is without giving details? I am certainly not aware of the designed for people who are a long way from the labour issues that the right hon. Gentleman has just raised. He market and who have no experience of work or the has made quite a serious comment about another Member. work ethic. Placements are for a similar period to those I have no knowledge of any such occasions since I have in the “Work Experience” scheme, and they are sourced become a Minister. through private welfare-to-work providers. The total value of the contracts for mandatory work activity is £32 million. I have repeatedly asked the Minister to tell Stephen Timms: I can tell the right hon. Gentleman the House what the average cost of such a placement is, that the three occasions are all on the UK Statistics and various other details. He has repeatedly refused to Authority’s website: first, data relating to the flexible answer those questions, claiming that it is “Commercial new deal; secondly, data relating to worklessness statistics; in Confidence” although heaven knows why. and thirdly, data about benefit claims on the part of immigrants. The first and third of those were widely Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): The right hon. publicised at the time. I have the letter on the second in Gentleman has talked a lot about “confusion”, but front of me. The Minister publishes statistics that he from where I sit in Westminster Hall today I am extremely thinks advance his partisan case, but he refuses to confused about the position of his party in relation to publish straightforward, routine data that certainly should the Government’s work experience programme. On the be in the public domain. one hand he says that he supports work experience, but on the other he seems to be coming up with all sorts of Chris Grayling: Further to that point of order, “confusion” in his argument to try to get away from Mr Crausby. Since becoming a Minister I have not supporting that programme. Does his party support the received, to the best of my knowledge, any communication current Government’s work experience programme and from the UK Statistics Authority questioning any statistics will he commit to supporting those employers that are that I have published. I want to place that on the record doing a fantastic job in giving our young people this and ask whether it is in order for a shadow Minister to type of opportunity? make an allegation of that kind. Stephen Timms: I very strongly support work experience and I strongly support the contribution of employers. Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): That is not a point However, what I regret and deprecate is the extraordinary of order. 47WH Work Experience13 MARCH 2012 Work Experience 48WH

Stephen Timms: I will gladly copy the letter from the company such as Tesco, there are a vast range of UK Statistics Authority website for the Minister. opportunities in IT, HR, logistics, or community outreach. Work experience should have been straightforward There was magnificent community work at Asda in my and uncontroversial. It is valuable and we need more of own constituency. There are all kinds of opportunities it. Instead, we have had U-turns, public relations fiascos for someone to go in at the bottom and work their way and even street protests. The Minister needs to clear up up. the confusion at Jobcentre Plus, level with us about Let me explain to the hon. Member for Edinburgh mandatory work activity and embrace at last the open East how the scheme works. Our advisers sit down with data initiative that was conceived by the Minister for the young people and talk about different career options. Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, the right hon. They ask them about the sectors that interest them, and Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), so that everybody find them—if we can—a placement in one of their can judge for themselves the effectiveness of the schemes. preferred sectors. It is their choice. We listen to them and try to find the opportunity. Unfortunately, we cannot find opportunities for all the young people, 12.21 pm because the scheme is over-subscribed. That is the nature The Minister of State, Department for Work and of what we are trying to do. We expect them to turn up, Pensions (Chris Grayling): We have just heard a clear if they have taken a placement from someone else; we example of why the Opposition have yet to adapt to expect them to fulfil the placement if they stay beyond opposition. In long years of opposition, we learned that the first week’s grace; and we expect them to behave there are times when one should simply accept that themselves. It is the lightest-touch conditionality anywhere what the Government are doing is right. I am sorry to in the welfare system. We have listened to the employers— hear the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen given all the brouhaha—and accepted that we would Timms), for whom I normally have a high regard, remove the attendance requirement. We still have misrepresenting the situation around any letters or sanctions in place for things such as racism in the communications that the Department has received from workplace, theft in the workplace and abusive behaviour the UK Statistics Authority. I am also sorry that he is towards customers or fellow co-workers. Only about dancing on a sixpence to try to oppose something that 200 out of 34,000 participants have been sanctioned. he should support. The scheme was and will continue to be a voluntary Mr Crausby, if you had told me three months ago scheme that is positive and beneficial. Some of the that we would be dealing with protests against the work coverage—particularly the BBC’s—and wilful attempts experience scheme, given all the difficult decisions that to mislead were disgraceful. My hon. Friend the Member we are taking in the Department for Work and Pensions, for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) is absolutely I would have thought you were mad. Among all those right. The way in which this was covered was nothing difficult decisions, this is a positive programme that is short of disgraceful. The scheme is aimed at the under-24s. designed to help. It is innocuous. It does what it says on Putting people in their 40s on the TV was nonsensical the tin. It started as a result of a complaint that I and extremely poor-quality journalism. However, a small personally received from the mother of a young woman number of older people do get work experience placements: who said, “My daughter has arranged a month’s work for example, long-term carers and people who have experience for herself and been told she will lose her been out of the workplace for long periods for whom benefits if she carries out that experience.” I regarded such experience is beneficial. that as unacceptable, so we started to use the teams of The right hon. Member for East Ham raised a variety people we have in Jobcentre Plus to look for opportunities of questions about letters and so forth. Of course, for young people to do work experience, precisely because someone does not get a letter about the scheme unless of the issues raised by my hon. Friend the Member for they have volunteered to be on it. It is as simple and Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis). It is all well and straightforward as that. I will tell the House a simple good if someone comes from a prosperous background, story, which was fed back to me by one of our Jobcentre but not everyone does. Helping young people find work Plus teams a couple of weeks ago. They were briefing a experience opportunities is enormously important. group of young people about the work experience scheme I will deal straight away with the issue raised by the and opportunities. One of them—a young woman—said, hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore). I “I don’t wanna do that. It’s slave labour.” Our staff said am afraid she needs to look herself in the mirror and that they did not have to do or say anything at all, ask the question about being a job snob. The row came because the rest of the group turned on her and told her about because of a computer error, which published an in no uncertain terms how important the opportunity internal bulletin about a work experience placement at was to them and how important it was that they all took Tesco. Had it been Airbus, this would never have been a part. By the time they had finished discussing it as a story, and the hon. Lady would not be complaining group, she was going to take part, too. There was no today. I commend Airbus for joining our scheme, along mandation from us, but mandation from her peers. with many other manufacturers. The scheme is positive. It is not about retailing. The About 12 months ago, I met an older, former unemployed tragic aspect to the debate is the absurd discussion worker at an Asda store in Birmingham. He said: “I about whether we should be helping young people get came here after years of unemployment. I got a job at work experience places—of course we should. There the bottom level of the scale. A few months later, I was should be no doubt about that. We are still not hearing, running a department with a staff of 20.” The job of especially from the right hon. Member for East Ham, running a high street retail branch—a big supermarket—can “This is a good scheme that we will back publicly. It is be a job that oversees a large staff in a business turning the right thing to do. We will continue it if we get back over tens of millions of pounds a year. In a large into Government.” All we hear is cavilling about this 49WH Work Experience 13 MARCH 2012 50WH and that detail. Let us stand up and say, “We have a Investigation of Suicides problem with youth unemployment. We need to do something about it. We will do something. We will all 12.30 pm work together.” Every single one of us in this House, Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): It is with whether it is the right hon. Gentleman, me or any other delight that I appear before you, Mr Crausby, as I know Member here, could do a power of good for this scheme, that you take a particular interest in this matter. This Mr Crausby. Indeed, you could yourself, sir, in your debate has been prompted by my role as chair of the constituency. We can talk to local employers and say, all-party parliamentary group on suicide and self-harm “Get involved.” This is a real way to help young people. prevention, and is based on the testimonies that I have It makes a difference. It is great. They go on into heard from families bereaved by suicide. I will raise two employment and many of them look back and say that key issues in the short time that I have. The first involves it is the best thing that ever happened to them. how police officers interact with bereaved families, and We do have mandatory programmes. The mandatory the second involves how suicides are investigated, most work activity programme gives our Jobcentre Plus advisers notably where the internet may be a factor. I will make the discretion to refer someone whom they believe is eight clear requests for change, which I ask the Minister struggling, not pulling their weight or having real difficulty to consider. in their work search to a month’s full-time activity. We Suicide is a tragedy for the individual who takes their do not mandate to go and work for private companies— own life, and it brings long-term distress for the family they would not take it even if we did. The same is true and friends left behind. For every suicide, six people of the Work programme. We cannot send people against close to the person who died—in England and Wales, their wishes to work for a big retailer. that means 30,000 people each year—will experience a deep sense of grief. Families bereaved by suicide inevitably Stephen Timms: Will the Minister give way? find themselves in direct contact with the authorities. In many cases, a knock at the door by a police officer Chris Grayling: I will not, because I have very little informs them of what has happened. time. Families touched by suicide can suffer a greater stigma Mandation in our system will apply to community than is attached to other forms of death, and they may benefit schemes and to nothing else. We are absolutely avoid reaching out for support. They are vulnerable. As clear about that. It is the same for the Work programme. the Government’s draft suicide prevention strategy notes, The work experience scheme is a good scheme, which family members are approximately two and a half times must and will continue. It will now grow, because more more likely to take their own life after the suicide of a people are coming forward to help—after all the publicity, close relative. ironically. The protesters are plain wrong. They are At a recent meeting of the all-party group, we considered misguided. It is a tragedy that they are supported by the bereavement. Many spoke about their initial contact unions and Labour MPs, but we will not listen to them. with the authorities. I will share one statement: We will listen to the young people who say, “This is the “The police who dealt with my son immediately following his best thing that could happen to us.” death were, as I would have expected, matter-of-fact but kind and sympathetic to the family. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be for them to have to deal with a family like ours who are expressing a mixture of utter shock, bewilderment, hysteria, and sheer terror when a family member takes their own life. It happened late in the evening, and by the time the police had left around midnight, it was dark and cold and trying to get children to sleep, let alone ourselves, was impossible. The following day, another policeman arrived to take statements. He again did his job well and with sympathy. However, I found the whole event very distressing, and it would have been very helpful if someone had been there—a trained counsellor—to help us through this process, to offer some comfort and attempt to give us some level of understanding as to what had just happened. As it was there was no one. No one gave us the ‘Help is at Hand’ booklet, no one gave us any numbers to call. Nothing.” I recommend that the Minister read the work of Dr Sharon McDonnell, or at least that one of his team read it. She is at the university of Manchester and has researched how health professionals and police officers interact with bereaved families. For her PhD, she interviewed bereaved families, finding that eight out of nine participants informed by the police reported feeling distressed, traumatised and angry at how they had been informed. Dr McDonnell is seeking funding for further research in the area. I urge the Minister to discuss not only the changes that she has identified as necessary but how we can move forward and ensure that we change families’ experience. None of the families with whom I have had contact ever received a copy of “Help is at Hand”. I would be interested to know whether the Minister is aware of the 51WH Investigation of Suicides13 MARCH 2012 Investigation of Suicides 52WH

[Mrs Madeleine Moon] Families have also suggested that, in the event of a suicide, an immediate response plan should be put in booklet to which I refer. It is a Department of Health place, bringing them into contact with someone with document offering advice for those bereaved by suicide professional training to help them through the first few or other traumatic deaths. It includes contacts for support days and weeks and to give practical advice. As the first groups and covers practical matters such as the inquest responders, the police often seem to be the trigger for procedure and methods for dealing with grief. Sadly, generating such support. In addition, families propose that invaluable resource is being wasted through patchy that, in the first few days after a suicide, local agencies distribution and a lack of awareness. should work together to share information, agree lines Last year, when I took part in the police service of communication and ensure that lessons are learned. I parliamentary scheme with South Wales police, I was can tell the Minister that it happens in my constituency, already aware of the expertise of officers across my where it works extremely well and is very effective. constituency on the issue, and I take this opportunity to Australia leads the world on police and media commend them. However, away from Bridgend, I was communications after suicide. The all-party group heard concerned by the lack of guidance that individual officers from Professor Jane Pirkis, a leading expert in suicide appeared to receive on how to deal with families and research from Australia, about a programme called media inquiries. It left me wondering whether standard Mindframe designed to equip police officers with the guidance and training for police officers exists, or whether necessary skills for dealing with the media. Officers are it is left to chance. issued with a small card to keep in their wallet offering In the first instance, investigations of a death are advice about appropriate language to use and how best steered by the murder investigation manual, which is to deal with media inquiries. It also highlights information employed for investigation into unexplained deaths. to be passed to families, localised to individual police After criminality has been ruled out, the manual no forces, about local and national support services. It is longer applies. Apparently, it is left to local forces to simple, but it ensures a high level of consistency, which produce their own guidance on investigating non-suspicious we also need to achieve. Will the Minister look at deaths. Mindframe, with a view to adapting something similar for use by police forces in England and Wales? Not only are the police often the first agency to be Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I involved in a suicide, but police officers are more likely congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate on to have contact with people who are distressed and may an important issue. On police investigations, is it not go on to take their own lives. It is estimated that as important that suicide should never be presumed but many people see a police officer in the three months that a finding must be based on evidence? For a family, before their death as see a mental health professional in suicide is a traumatic experience. Police must therefore the 12 months before their death. Police officers are eliminate all other possibilities in their investigations. often the authority figures with whom the suicidal are in contact before their death; they are in contact with Mrs Moon: It is vital that the police conduct a full them more often than with any other professional. Will inquiry, but they must be aware of the sensitivity of the the Minister consider how police training can be used to issue and the risks associated if the inquiry presses too build awareness of suicidal behaviour, so that officers much on possible family engagement or involvement in are better equipped to recognise those at risk? the death. I will address that later in my speech, but I Social media such as Bebo and Facebook create an thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. additional burden for bereaved families. Photographs Once a suicide has been determined, it is important posted on personal sites can often be accessed by journalists. that the police reconnect with families to ensure that I cannot begin to say how many families I have spoken they are not left feeling that they have caused or been to have been distressed when they saw photographs of implicated in their relative’s death. Families have expressed their relative—often photographs that they have never a feeling of being on trial, and that feeling can resurface, seen before—printed without their knowledge or particularly during the coronial process. They feel that permission, often on the front page of a local newspaper. they carry some guilt and responsibility for the death. A few years ago, I worked with the Home Office to That is the cause of the risk of trauma. provide a simple telephone contact for each social network The House of Commons Library undertook research provider for police media teams to use to close access to on my behalf into what guidance is available to police individual sites. Will the Minister look at that again to forces, but it drew a significant blank. Although I plan ensure that police forces are aware of the process and to meet the lead on the issue from the Association of that families can be advised of that service? Chief Police Officers, will the Minister examine how My second area of concern is about the investigation advice and guidance can be issued by the Home Office of suicides, in particular where the internet may have to bring consistency to the investigations carried out by been a factor. In the past year, I have been contacted by police forces after a death has been recognised as suicide? several bereaved families, the majority of them parents Will he examine the training provided to police officers who have lost a child. The communications follow a on the difficult role that they play in breaking the similar pattern. In the aftermath of a suicide, it becomes traumatic news of a death to families, the sensitivity of apparent that the individual may have used the internet gathering information to further their inquiries and the to access information on the means and methods to need to provide support and information to the bereaved? take their own life. They may also have been offered In particular, will he ensure that all front-line police encouragement to do so via internet sites. In all the officers are made aware of “Help is at Hand” and that cases brought to me, the police have decided not to families access it as a matter of course? investigate the individual’s computer. The reasons are 53WH Investigation of Suicides13 MARCH 2012 Investigation of Suicides 54WH varied, including the Regulation of Investigatory Powers measures to reduce the suicide rate, the draft strategy Act 2000, general privacy issues, time and money—the highlighted the need for continuing to support the latter becoming a growing issue as police forces face internet industry to remove content that encourages budget constraints. suicide and to provide ready access to suicide prevention Without investigation, what may amount to criminal services—a particular concern to the hon. Lady following incitement to suicide is going undetected and unchallenged. the deaths in Bridgend. Papyrus, a suicide prevention charity that works with The consultation ended on 11 October last year and bereaved families, is aware of 50 cases in which the received around 200 responses from a broad range of internet played a significant part in a suicide. If the organisations and individuals. We are now considering police do not routinely investigate websites explored by all the responses received and intend to publish the final individuals before their suicides, we will never know the strategy later this year, so the hon. Lady’s intervention real scale of the problem or what the most dangerous and list of suggestions are timely. websites are. If the police are unwilling to investigate, Turning to the role of the police, which is the specific surely the full facts are not being presented to the topic that the hon. Lady has raised, it is important to coroner. We need national guidelines for such investigations set out the different but complementary roles of the and we need police forces to investigate computers and police and coroners when there has been a sudden internet use as a matter of course where there is a death. The coroner is an independent judicial officer suspected or known suicide. Will the Minister examine who has a statutory duty to investigate every death the 2000 Act to see whether any aspect of the Act is seen where he or she has reason to suspect that it may have by police forces as a prevention to further investigation been violent, unnatural or of an unknown cause. The of computers? Will he issue clear guidance to police police have a duty to investigate all sudden deaths. They forces to ensure that, at the least, the history of internet also act as coroners’ officers and are required to collect use before death is examined and notified to the coroner? information and evidence that will enable the coroner to That is a small task, and for an expert it takes a matter determine accurately the cause of death. of minutes. However, most families cannot do that for themselves. The police also have a core duty to establish whether a crime has been committed. Even when a death becomes I wish to end by thanking the many police officers no longer suspicious and appears explainable, they have who have been given the awful task of investigating an ongoing duty to assist the coroner by collecting and suicides and who have been given the even worse task of recording all available evidence for an inquest. Both the notifying the families of those who have died. In securing coroner and the police share the view that a suicide this debate, I have aimed to bring greater clarity and must never just be presumed, and they are diligent in consistency for police officers and families alike. We ask their duty to establish unambiguous evidence that the a difficult task of our police officers: to be able to go on deceased had intended to take his or her own life and to dangerous streets, to tackle violent crime and drugs, rule out other possibilities. and to be able to deal with people in a high state of distress and trauma. It is important that they are given Training on how to deal with sudden deaths, including the guidance and training to do so, and I look forward suicide, is mandatory for all police officers. Suicide is to hearing from the Minister. covered in training given to officers in a range of areas, including missing persons, coroners’ investigations and inquests and domestic abuse. Some forces have developed 12.44 pm additional advice to police officers through local guidance The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick or protocols on the investigation of sudden or unexplained Herbert): First, I congratulate the hon. Member for death, including suicide. Bridgend (Mrs Moon) on securing the debate. I pay It is the responsibility of the chief officer of each tribute to her excellent work in the prevention of suicide force to take appropriate steps to ensure that their staff through her role as chair of the all-party group on receive appropriate training. They take that responsibility suicide and self-harm prevention. I am sure that her seriously and are alert to the need for their officers to efforts have helped to keep the issue at the forefront of behave with the utmost sensitivity and support when the political and public agenda. I am aware of her dealing with suicide. Nevertheless, I will certainly draw particular interest in such issues, following the spate of to the attention of the Association of Chief Police terrible deaths of young people in her constituency a Officers the hon. Lady’s comments about the need for few years ago. Every suicide is a tragic event, and it is some kind of national guidance; about the booklet, hard to imagine how traumatic an experience it must be “Help is at Hand”, distribution of which she said is for the bereaved family and friends. patchy; and about the Australian Mindframe programme The Government take the issue seriously, and we are that is issued to all police officers, about which I would committed to suicide prevention. Last July, we published certainly like to find out more. a consultation on preventing suicide in England, which We are in the process of setting up a professional set out a draft cross-departmental outcomes strategy to body for policing, and this area is exactly the kind that save lives. I understand that the Welsh Government that body would look at, because it is about standards have their own national action plan to reduce suicide in policing. We have to strike the right balance in and self-harm in Wales. deciding between what is appropriate to issue national A whole range of factors come together to increase a guidance on and what is a matter for the police themselves person’s vulnerability to self-harm or suicide. The to issue guidance on. That is consistent with our policy. Government are committed to ensuring that the right We want to hold the police accountable for the outcomes support is in place for individuals who find themselves that they achieve, but to be less prescriptive in terms of in such desperate situations. As part of a range of Government direction about what they are doing. Our 55WH Investigation of Suicides13 MARCH 2012 Investigation of Suicides 56WH

[Nick Herbert] under the Police Act 1997 or RIPA, which the hon. Lady mentioned. Both routes would be authorised by ambition is the same: to improve the service that the senior police officers on the basis that the action is public receive. These are clearly very sensitive matters, necessary and proportionate to detect a crime, including and although it might not be appropriate to issue national the crime of encouraging or assisting suicide. The 1997 Government guidance, that does not mean that it would Act authorisation would be necessary to open the computer be inappropriate for police guidance to be issued in the and the RIPA authorisation would be necessary to future by policing professional bodies. That is a matter examine the private information it contains. RIPA also that we can discuss and that I am open-minded about. I permits the police to authorise the access of data from a am conscious that we must be careful about adding to communication service provider, including internet service the burden of guidance. providers, on the same basis to determine what sort of The police coroner interface—the process by which a sites had been accessed or who had been in contact. death is deemed not suspicious and is passed to the The decisions to take those actions would be a matter coroner, and through which evidence is shared—is for the police. Neither the 1997 Act nor RIPA place any important, as is the role of the police and other partners restriction on investigations into the use of the internet and organisations in supporting bereaved relatives. We to encourage or assist suicide. In circumstances where accept that practice in those areas can vary across the police believe that a suicide and content on the forces. That is why these issues are currently subject to internet are linked, they might consider it appropriate discussion and review through a number of Government- to investigate the computer of the person who has led, cross-sector forums that want to improve the practice committed suicide. As the hon. Lady knows, that can and investigations of sudden deaths and the support include the investigation of activity on social network given to bereaved relatives. Representatives from ACPO sites, which have been thought to play a part in some are playing an active part in those discussions. incidents. In November last year, the Government announced Any decision to access the computer of a person who that they intend to proceed with the implementation of has died following a suicide, of course, rests with the the office of the chief coroner, which will provide leadership relevant police force. That must be done sensitively. If and oversight of the coroner system. Once the chief the bereaved family is not satisfied with the police’s coroner is in post, ACPO intends to meet him or her to actions, they can complain to the force directly. If they indentify and discuss these cross-cutting issues. In addition, remain dissatisfied, they should raise any concerns with the Ministry of Justice plans to publish its charter for the Independent Police Complaints Commission. coroner services shortly. For the first time in the 800 years since the office of coroner was established, that will set The hon. Lady raised a separate issue about the role out the standards of service that bereaved people can of social media following a suicide and the fact that it expect to receive and what they can do if they are not may be possible through social media for people to satisfied. access information, including photographs, in a way that distresses the family. She mentioned that some kind The other issue that the hon. Lady raised, which is of protocol to address that is already in existence. I am obviously very serious, is that concerns have been expressed very happy to consider that matter and examine whether that the police should routinely examine the computers that protocol is being used effectively. I can understand of suicide victims to determine whether they have received that a social website through which photographs are online encouragement to take their own lives. Any shared and available when somebody is alive and perhaps decision to access the computer of a person who has happy may take on an entirely different complexion to committed suicide rests with the relevant police force. I the family of that person if a suicide occurs. Therefore, will come back to that, but it may be helpful if I first it is desirable to be able to ensure that information that explain briefly the relevant provisions in law that have was publicly available in different circumstances cannot been simplified and modernised to reflect concerns be misused. I am happy to consider that matter and about the misuse of the internet to promote suicide. examine how we might work with the social media Under section 2(1) of the Suicide Act 1961, as amended providers to ensure effective action in such circumstances. by section 59 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, it is an offence to carry out an act capable of encouraging or I reiterate the Government’s commitment to preventing assisting the suicide or attempted suicide of another suicide, which requires co-ordination and contributions person with the intention of so doing. The person from public services and organisations, voluntary groups, committing the offence need not know the other person the private sector and individuals. The forthcoming or even be able to identify them. Therefore, the author Government strategy will play an important part in of a website promoting suicide and suicide methods helping to prevent vulnerable people from taking their may commit an offence if the website encourages or own lives and in supporting those who have been bereaved assists the suicide or attempted suicide of their readers following suicides. The Government are ensuring that and the author intends that the website will so encourage we have a support framework in place, so that the right or assist them. Crucially, the law also allows that person help is available to those who are at risk of suicide. to be prosecuted, irrespective of whether a suicide or Furthermore, the existing legal framework ensures that attempted suicide takes place. Similarly, any person the police have sufficient powers to investigate sudden making a posting to an online chat room or a social deaths and to support the work of the coroner. networking site that intentionally encourages another I will ensure that we study the hon. Lady’s speech person to commit or attempt to commit suicide may be carefully, so that all the issues that she has raised are guilty of offence. picked up, as we consider the publication of the strategy The police can investigate those suspected of encouraging and the responses to it. If necessary, I will write to her suicide by accessing the relevant computer and analysing to set out what more we think we might need to do. I the data on it after obtaining a warrant or an authorisation certainly do not want her to think that I am not taking 57WH Investigation of Suicides 13 MARCH 2012 58WH seriously her request that there should be national guidance Secondary Ticketing in this respect, but I am conscious of the background of the burden of national guidance that has been coming from the Home Office on a range of matters. That is 12.58 pm why the appropriate first step will be for me to discuss Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): It is an honour to these issues with ACPO and find out what it believes is serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I believe necessary by means of further doctrine and what it that the free market is by far and away the best method thinks the appropriate doctrine should be. The overall by which to allocate resources effectively. Provided the burden is something that concerns me; but equally, it is often-quoted five criteria regarding the definition of important to ensure proper practice. perfect markets—identical product, all firms are price Clearly, we will not prevent every tragedy. However, takers, all firms have a relatively small market share, we can assure ourselves that we have done everything in perfect knowledge, and no barriers to entry or exit—are our power, so that those with suicidal thoughts have mostly met, the market should be left alone to do what somewhere to turn for support and bereaved families it does best. are treated with sensitivity by the police, who will leave Consumers should have the ultimate say on how no stone unturned in their pursuit of answers. I hope products are delivered and at what price. However, with that that is an adequate response to the hon. Lady, live music and many other activities where a finite given the seriousness of her concern about the matter, amount of tickets are available, there is a major perfect which I recognise. market imperfection. Music and other forms of creative expression are vital to the British economy—from earnings to employment—and for quality of life as well. The performing arts and sport sustain employment and tax revenues that benefit all our citizens. Some 1.5 million people are employed in the creative industries or in creative roles in other industries. Exports of services from the creative industries accounted for 10.6% of the UK’s exports of services, and there were an estimated 106,700 businesses in the creative industries, which represents 5.1% of all companies. British musical talent earned £139.6 million from overseas earnings in 2008. The top three earners, in order, were the Police, Iron Maiden and Coldplay. The Performing Right Society for Music has said that Britain is the No. 1 home of musical talent in the world. In short, it is worth us all taking an interest in the continued prosperity of the creative industries. There is, however, a blight that creams off revenues by exploiting an imperfect market and contributes nothing to the creative copyright holders, or indeed the venues and staff who put on events. The blight consists of those who profiteer by exploiting excess demand. In rapidly changing times in the internet world, what was previously considered quaint and not much of a problem, or indeed a possible service, has now been overtaken by industrial-scale activities at the touch of a button. Government have not kept up with the rapid pace of change.

David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Does he agree that this is a drain not just on the musical industry, but on the Exchequer too?

Mike Weatherley: Absolutely. I agree—it is a drain on the Exchequer. Of course, some secondary ticketing organisations pay tax, but there is an amount of VAT and so on that is not necessarily reclaimed. The issue is recognised by some of the music and sports industries’ leading names. The list of those who joined me to meet with the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport last year reads like a “Who’s Who”: Melvin Benn, Festival Republic, who runs the Glastonbury and Reading festivals and is chairman of Wembley stadium; Harvey Goldsmith, legendary promoter of live events; Rod Smallwood, Phantom Music, manager of Iron Maiden; Ian McAndrew, Wildlife Entertainment, manager of the Arctic Monkeys; 59WH Secondary Ticketing13 MARCH 2012 Secondary Ticketing 60WH

[Mike Weatherley] however, falls down on three counts. First, there are many reasons why a business may wish to price at below Anthony Addis, Brontone Management, manager of full market value, such as market penetration and reward Muse and the Pogues; Emma Banks, Creative Artists for loyalty.There is differential pricing in football stadiums; Agency; John Jackson, K2 Agency and Sonisphere for example, in a young persons area where the club festival; Simon Davies, the Teenage Cancer Trust charity; wishes to build a fan base. They could sell at a much James MacDougall, Sport and Recreation Alliance; higher rate, but choose to price market segment. The Dan Fahey, Virtual Festivals; Neil Warnock and Geoff clubs would be disadvantaged if those young persons Meall, the Agency Group; Jeff Craft, X-ray Touring; simply sold on their tickets for a profit—that would Brian Message, ATC/Courtyard Management and Music defeat the intention of a lower-priced ticket. I will come Managers Forum; and Danny Newby, Big Green Coach. on to the Olympic example later. Those industry leaders have been joined by many others in recent months, including DJ Rob da Bank; Phil Secondly, another reason would be to control the McIntyre, Phil McIntyre Entertainments; James Sandom type of person attending; for example, crowd separation of Supervision Management, who look after the Kaiser at football matches. That argument is well established in Chiefs; and Steve Parker of Live UK. That group other areas, too. There are restrictions on who can buy cannot be called an isolated few—the industry is very certain properties, such as affordable housing units that concerned. cannot be bought by speculators and sold at an immediately higher value to someone not in the target housing Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): I was audience. In addition, a band may wish to have a young surprised by the number of e-mails I received on this crowd at the front of the stage, rather than people who issue. Having heard that list, perhaps I should not have can afford the premium pricing, which would not necessarily been. I received an e-mail from a constituent, create the same atmosphere. Mr Sunderland from Larkfield. He said that a typical Thirdly, there is criminality relating to ticket forgeries scenario is for tickets to go on sale on a Friday at 9 am, and organised crime, which I will come on to later. I and by 9.10 am they are sold out. They are then listed should point out at this point that I am not totally on other websites at triple the face value, or even more, against the on-selling of tickets. There must be a mechanism of the original tickets. Does my hon. Friend agree that that allows ticket buyers to recover the price of their we should be putting the fan, not the salesman, at the ticket, and maybe make a small profit for their troubles, centre of the ticketing process for live music and other if they cannot attend. That could be done via a fan-to-fan events? website. That is an essential safeguard, but it is the intention when buying the ticket that is the most important Mike Weatherley: I could not agree more. I will come consideration. We saw recently, with the debenture ticket on to that point in a moment—it is on an industrial holders story at the Royal Albert hall, that some were scale now. The intention of the person buying the ticket buying their debenture—or season ticket, if you prefer— is important. If the intention is to make a profit, I argue with no intention of going to the shows, but because that that is to the detriment of the industry. they were able to make a profit of 10 times the face It can be argued that there are occasions where value. intermediaries, such as agents, or, in this example, ticket touts, provide a supply and demand service. However, At the moment, with huge profits available for popular in the case of exceptional excess demand for a finite events, tickets are being purchased on an industrial product, supply cannot be increased to match demand. scale, with no intention of going to the event itself. With only a finite number of hours available to the People up and down the country are contracted by performers, the free market falls down due to a restriction ticket organisations—or are freelance themselves—that of supply. Ticket touts who take advantage of that make it their job to sit at banks of computers to buy the market imperfection do nothing to add to our creative maximum allocation of tickets at face value as soon as industries in terms of revenue and profits to those they go on sale. As we saw on the “Dispatches”programme putting on the shows. a few weeks ago, some companies are willing to use In addition to profit being driven into the hands of their staff, and credit cards obtained for this specific those who have done nothing to nurture and develop purpose, to buy tickets and resell for a profit. the product, there is the added consideration of who Before I move on, may I just address the issues owns the product being performed. I hope that everyone brought up in the “Dispatches” programme? A lot of listening to this debate will readily agree that a performance the focus of the programme was based on artists, promoters belongs to an artist, and that the artist has the right to or venues holding tickets back and using free market be in control of the terms of that performance. Indeed, mechanisms to sell tickets at an additional profit to the today the French Government have enacted a law stating benefit of those putting on the concert or event. I see specifically that. Any hon. Member who wishes to nothing wrong with that if it is done with the copyright explore further why the protection of intellectual property holder’s permission. It seems that that was given, since rights is so important may wish to check out my “Rock it would appear that the promoter ticket allocation, for the House” website, www.rockthehouse2012.com, which example, was in the contracts. That was known to all goes into that particular debate in some detail. The parties and is no different from premium pricing at the creative person should at all times be able to retain front end. It is simply a mechanism that reduces the risk control of how the end product is produced, marketed to the artist on pricing, and shares that with those and used. operating the system for them. Some artists grade their I am well aware of the argument that artists realise tickets from the outset at a higher premium value. We the full value of the ticket sales, so who are they to have heard about certain artists charging £1,000 for complain if others also make a profit? That argument, tickets in the front row. The mechanism on fan-to-fan 61WH Secondary Ticketing13 MARCH 2012 Secondary Ticketing 62WH websites is no different from that; it just uses the free up to handle, and there are obvious safety concerns—and market to set the price. What was wrong, as mentioned anyway, it adds to the Big Brother state, which surely earlier, was where the secondary ticket seller was buying, should be avoided if we can. via a network of intermediary operators, for the specific I am pleased that the ticket sales for the games have purpose of on-selling at a profit to them, not to the gone well. The Olympics are inspirational in so many artist. ways and I hope that the Minister will be inspired by the That brings me on to the Olympics. As is well known ticketing arrangements for the London games and use and accepted as a matter of principle, it is against the that inspiration to help all our creative industries and law to on-sell an Olympic ticket, whether at a profit or events that could benefit similarly from Government not—it must be sold back to the organiser. It strikes me and police assistance. as baffling that the Government accept this for a specific Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland sporting event and promote strong enforcement, but are West) (Lab): I know that the hon. Gentleman is probably reluctant to take action for the benefit of our creative just about to wind up, so I thank him for giving way. I industries. Some 6.6 million Olympic tickets have been wanted to listen to his speech in full and not interrupt sold to the public, raising £527 million. That figure along the way. He has made an excellent speech, as could have been much more, but the price was set and I would expect, because he is knowledgeable on this the Government seek to enforce it so it remains a subject. With everything that he has said, and taking “games for all”, and not just those who can pay the into account everything that he knows about what is premium. Some 25% of tickets have been held back for going on, which “Dispatches” highlighted, does he think other purposes, such as corporate sales and other premium that the time has come for the Government to consider pricing, but a decision was taken that 75% of the tickets legislation, and not just say that the industry has to try should go to enthusiastic fans at a specific price below to regulate itself? market value. The atmosphere inside the arena will benefit as a result, contributing to what I am sure will Mike Weatherley: I thank the hon. Lady for her be a fantastic games. intervention and I applaud her efforts in this field, The Home Secretary is so determined to crack down without which I would never have been alerted to the on touts, the fine was raised from £5,000 to £20,000. In issue. I thank her for that. I agree and France does, too. May 2011, she said: As I said, France has gone live today with a law specifically “The 2012 Games will be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to about this form of ticket touting, which is along the experience the Games on home soil. By increasing fines for lines of the hon. Lady’s private Member’s Bill, which touting we are sending a clear message to criminals…that it is not although introduced did not get past the next stage. worth their while and they are not welcome.” I am not advocating that every ticketed event be The police, under Operation Podium, have announced subject to additional legislative support. Many artists that every ticket tout caught will also be pursued to and events will be happy for the secondary market to recover their assets, with no maximum limit to the buy and sell their tickets, but those that wish to have amount that can be recovered. Additionally, internet protection should be able to apply for support under companies such as eBay and Gumtree could also face law, in the same way the Olympics did. If it is good action if they do not take immediate action, once enough for the world’s premier sporting event, it should notified of illegal activity. be good enough for our creative industry, which is worth protecting before we lose the world-beating position The worry about the effects of ticket touting goes Britain currently enjoys. further. Detective Chief Inspector Nick Downing, in charge of Operation Podium, said. Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): Does my hon. “we have already seen the demand for Olympic tickets which gives Friend agree that, whereas in days gone by people criminals greater opportunity to run scams, sell non-existent queued to buy tickets and paid cash, many tickets are tickets and even steal your personal and credit card details to use now bought online via different means and that is in other crimes…As soon as you allow things to go out of another example of how the internet and online control, opportunities for criminals grow. And I do not want communication are moving at a pace? We should move London to be associated with disappointment at finding out all to use that to help us to prevent the scenarios that he is the money paid out was to criminals and no tickets exist”. outlining. That last point could have been echoed by any bank manager, who I am sure would worry about exactly the Mike Weatherley: I agree. Some 20 years ago, ticket same thing. touting at events was a quaint issue, but now it is on an Although examples that I have given show that extensive industrial scale. We live in rapidly changing times. I action is, and can be, taken to prevent ticket touting at agree that the internet is a huge game changer. The UK the games, it only serves to highlight the lack of action Government need to catch up. taken against ticket touts at other events. Without legislation, It is worth noting, as I said earlier, that a secondary artists are forced to think of innovative ways to prevent ticketing law goes live in France today. The French are touts. Glastonbury, for example, uses a picture of every leading the way, the Olympics demanded it, the music ticket holder and other events have insisted that people industry is begging for action and the fans certainly bring with them the credit card used to purchase tickets. want it, but what is lacking is our Government’s grasp But this fails in a number of ways, from the father of the overwhelming evidence for action. wanting to give a present to his kids, to those who do not have a credit card or driving licence as proof of 1.14 pm identification. Such approaches can also create problems The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh with crowd surges before curtain-up: checking 10,000 IDs Robertson): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member will add to entrance delays, which venues are not geared for Hove (Mike Weatherley) and acknowledge, as other 63WH Secondary Ticketing13 MARCH 2012 Secondary Ticketing 64WH

[Hugh Robertson] through Operation Podium, to nail that down for the Olympics. However, the organisations that I mentioned hon. Members have done, his expertise on this subject do not feel—I really have asked them about this—that since he first came to Parliament and beforehand. Given there is sufficient evidence at the moment for them to that his speech was mainly about the music industry, I tell the Home Office, “Our legislative offer is deficient in apologise for not being my hon. Friend the Member for this regard; we want a ban across the piece.” The police Wantage (Mr Vaizey), who is normally the Minister have not said that and neither, yet, have the security responsible for matters musical. For some reason—I services. suspect because of the Olympics—the responsibility for I have asked the security services this specific question such matters lies in my portfolio. every time that we receive a briefing about intelligence I will deal with various points that my hon. Friend behind a large range of threats to the Olympic games. has made. First, I am aware that there has been a spike We always ask about Operation Podium and the influence of interest about secondary market issues, following the of large-scale criminal gangs, and the rest, on the games. recent edition of the “Dispatches” programme, which The security services are happy that the current fine is he mentioned. I take the points that he made. I gather sufficient to deter that activity. They are making good that the Office of Fair Trading has been asked to progress in targeting those who have offended and investigate a number of allegations made in that programme. taking down dummy websites that have sprung up all As a result, I am told that I am not in a position to around the place offering tickets that they cannot supply— comment further on those allegations at the moment. people send off money out of misguided enthusiasm, Secondly, my hon. Friend mentioned the Olympics. but find that the thing is a complete sham. Let us be clear that we did not introduce a ban on At no stage, however, has anyone said that the threat secondary ticketing because we in this country thought is sufficient to support a more general ban. I shall come that the Olympics needed such protection. To be brutally on to that in a minute, but I have an open mind. When honest with my hon. Friend, we did it because it was a that Rubicon is crossed, we will need to look at the requirement of the bid. The International Olympic matter very carefully, but I think that I have covered the Committee requires that. A country has to sign up to a Olympic-specific points, about the bid requirement and number of things in that regard, not all of which are last year’s London Olympic Games and Paralympic universally popular in this country—from Olympic-specific Games (Amendment) Act 2011 being a response to a lanes, onwards. The commitment to introduce the ban specific threat identified by the police and to a need for was made quite correctly by the previous Government, a higher penalty than the existing £5,000. precisely because it was a requirement of the bid. My hon. Friend the Member for Hove went through To be clear about the quote from the Home Secretary, the range of opportunities open to event organisers, but which my hon. Friend quoted correctly, the fine was I suspect that we are on slightly different sides of the raised to that level and not a great deal higher—the argument. The Government are keen for event organisers hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West to look at all the options currently available to them (Mrs Hodgson) was a member of the Committee that before we legislate, whether paperless tickets or photo dealt with this matter—although an amendment was IDs, although I recognise what he said about some of tabled to do just that, in response to specific police the shortcomings in given situations. advice about the appropriate fine and the seriousness of the threat. The Home Secretary did not dream it up for Mike Weatherley: I thank the Minister for a detailed policy reasons; she was responding to a recommendation reply. On that specific point, have the Government from the police. initiated any inquiries into alternatives, or are they Mrs Hodgson: As the Minister mentioned, I was a waiting for the industry to come back to them? member of the Committee that considered that matter. We took evidence from the Metropolitan Police Hugh Robertson: The short answer, following on from Commissioner, who, when I questioned him, said that the meeting that my hon. Friend had with the Secretary he had evidence that the criminal activity that he was of State a month or so ago, is that we are very much citing with regard to the fine having to be quadrupled to waiting for the industry to come back to us. It will not £20,000 also existed across the whole ticketing market. I surprise my hon. Friend or the hon. Member for pressed him to give his thoughts on whether the legislation Washington and Sunderland West, who are assiduous should be extended, but obviously he said that it was campaigners on the issue, to know that every time that not his place to do so. However, he gave evidence that they campaign there is a counterblast from the other this was rife across the whole ticketing world. side—the secondary ticketing organisations, which do not want legislation for a number of reasons. Every Hugh Robertson: After the hon. Lady’s private Member’s time the matter is highlighted, we inevitably get a blast Bill was introduced, I undertook some checks with both from the other side; but, as I say, we are keeping the Home Office and the wider security services. I have everything under review. We would like to explore the checked with both the Metropolitan Police and the point made by another of my hon. Friends about whether wider security services, and without going into too the internet can be used more effectively to provide much detail about the information that they have given extra protection before we move to legislation. me, I regret to say that those organisations have told me Where does all that leave us? Personally, I have an that they think that we have the balance about right. open mind, but it is worth recording that the previous They have said that this is a moving threat. Government asked the Select Committee on Culture, It is fair to say—it came across clearly in Assistant Media and Sport to conduct an inquiry. The Committee Commissioner Allison’s evidence to the Committee—that included a wide range of different views but concluded, this is a new and growing threat. It is reasonably easy, in about 2009, that there was no need for legislation at 65WH Secondary Ticketing13 MARCH 2012 Secondary Ticketing 66WH that stage. The previous Government also considered At the moment, I have an open mind and am happy the matter and came back to it a number of times, to grant the necessary exemptions if required by a bid, because I think that it was a manifesto commitment of but as a Government we are not yet ready to move the new Labour Government back in 1997, as beyond that. If the case can be proved and a particularly acknowledged by a number of my predecessors, with strong one can be made about criminality, we are open whom I have discussed the subject. They thought that to that. the argument could be cut either way and that extra evidence would be needed to prove that large-scale Mike Weatherley: Will the Minister commit the criminality was taking place as a result of secondary Government to look at the French example to see why it ticketing. was put into statute—going live today—and what the The current Government have agreed with that approach benefits or problems will be once it has gone live? until now, but I have an open mind. Purely in my own opinion, the moment that the security services or the Hugh Robertson: I most certainly give my hon. Friend police say that the activity is becoming a proxy for that undertaking. I had better tread carefully, but there large-scale criminal activity and that large amounts of are a lot of things that the French do differently throughout money are being laundered through the system, the case sport and the wider entertainment industry. For example, for legislation will become much easier to make. At the they have a betting law around image rights, so that moment, the Government are satisfied to follow the sports bodies can gain money from the betting industry recommendations of the Culture, Media and Sport that they can reinvest in grass-roots sports—many of Committee and the approach of the previous Government, the bodies are keen on that. Other things they do not and not to advocate a more general ban. do: they do not have a national lottery, which keeps many of our sports and arts events going. I will, absolutely, Mike Weatherley: I understand the point about look at the French example, although that is not to say criminality, but what about the ownership of the that, if it is a success, we will necessarily incorporate it performance? There has been no mention of that. Surely, directly into practice. performers owning their product is at the heart of our creative industries. Mrs Hodgson: I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way again, and I realise that we are operating a Hugh Robertson: Indeed it is, and intellectual property pincer movement on him at the moment. One of the and all the rest are a hot topic at the moment. There is responses that the Secretary of State gave at the meeting no point in my pretending that there is anything other the hon. Member for Hove and I had with him was that than a range of views. Both parties include people who the issue could be looked at again if market failure, and believe that secondary ticketing and exchange are a not only criminality, was demonstrated. The Minister perfectly reasonable way for individuals to buy tickets. mentioned the investigation by the OFT, which I wrote It is an open market and people should be allowed to do to following the “Dispatches” programme to ask it to that. There are a range of views; but, for myself, although look at market failure. He cannot go into such details I always have to defend the Government’s line, I have a perhaps, but I think that the OFT will find demonstrable very open mind. I am perfectly happy for us to give market failure, so would the Government then look at guarantees to events with such a bid requirement—I this again? have no ideological problem with that at all.

Mrs Hodgson: Following on from the point made by Hugh Robertson: Absolutely. Personally, as the Minister the hon. Member for Hove, I have had representations responsible, I have an open mind, as I said. The OFT is from people who consider that a ticket is nothing more another good example, because if its investigation were than a receipt for access to an event. Some very clever to demonstrate market failure, we would clearly have to people, including some studying law in university, are look at the market, to analyse the failure and to see researching whether there is a case in law to find that what can be done, if appropriate, to put things right. selling on such a receipt is illegal. It is a ticket, but it is That would most certainly change the debate, as would actually a receipt, to take part in an experience, and it is a firm police or security services commitment that large not something in and of itself. amounts of money were now being laundered through the secondary market and that not having legislation Hugh Robertson: I am dangerously close to being out was helping criminal gangs. of my depth. I studied a little law at university, getting I shall try to wrap up my comments, given the time. close to 30 years ago now, a bit more military law when The position remains that we have an open mind on I joined the Army and a little banking law 15 years or secondary ticketing. We are happy to legislate for events whatever ago, but I am not an expert. That is the first I with a bid requirement, but we do not think that there is have heard of that idea, but if someone is able to prove yet an absolutely sound case for a more general ban. We such a case legally, clearly the terms of the whole debate will keep an open mind, however, and look at the case as will be changed. the months progress. 67WH 13 MARCH 2012 Work Capability Assessment 68WH

Work Capability Assessment or trying to include more than one aspect on a single linear scale are part of the problem. Although that makes the assessment quicker and easier to carry out, it 1.29 pm fails to take account of the multiple features of impairment, Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): It is a pleasure, and how they interact. Mr Crausby, to serve under your chairmanship. I hope The document explains that the existing assessment that the Minister is not tired of hearing from me this does not take systematic and consistent account of the morning. During this debate on the employment and frequency of particular problems, or their severity. If a support allowance, and the independent review of the problem or difficulty is likely to occur infrequently, it work capability assessment, I want to concentrate on could have a very different effect on potential for the recommendations for new mental, intellectual and employment compared with the situation when the cognitive function descriptors, which is a fairly narrow problem occurs several times a day. part of the overall picture. Before the Minister jumps up How will the proposed new descriptors vary? First, to remind me, I am well aware that the work capability the Department for Work and Pensions has been asked assessment was introduced by the previous Government, to consider reversing the previous reduction in the and I hope that I would say exactly the same now if my number of descriptors from 10 to seven. That was done party were in power. in the internal review. The charities’ view is that by We must not forget that the issue is about people, doing that such as my constituent with mental health problems “Features which have been combined in this way represent who has twice scored nil points on a work capability separate impairments and…need to be considered separately to assessment, and who was twice placed in a support ensure a comprehensive assessment.” group after appeal, having waited seven months and Secondly, the proposed descriptors are multi-dimensional. nine months respectively for those appeals. He is currently Let me give a brief example: awaiting the outcome of his third assessment, and the “Michael experiences frequent spells of anxiety when he finds stress of that has affected his recovery. it…difficult to engage socially with almost all people. These The issue is a narrow one, but with 35% of the people episodes reoccur on average once a month, and tend to last for a going through work capability assessments being recorded few days at a time, after which Michael is usually able to bring as having a mental or behavioural condition as their them under control with some basic techniques from a short spell primary condition, it is the largest single group of of cognitive behavioural therapy which his family paid for.” employment and support allowance claimants, so it is It is considered that he is likely to score no points under of considerable significance. The Scottish Association the current descriptors, two of which relate to social for Mental Health, using Government data, says that contact. The first is: 43.9% of incapacity benefit claimants who are undergoing “Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to reassessment have mental health problems, and in Scotland difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the figure is 46% of claimants. Getting the assessment the individual”. right is critical. That covers engagement with anyone, and scores 15 points In his first review in November 2010, Professor on the current descriptors. The second is: Harrington acknowledged that inadequacies in the “Engagement in social contact”— descriptors for mental, intellectual and cognitive with someone unfamiliar to the claimant— function were likely to play a substantial role in the high “is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant rate of successful appeals. In September 2010, three distress”. organisations—Mind, Mencap and the National Autistic The word “always” appears in both those current Society—were asked to provide recommendations descriptors, and the report’s writers suggest that that is on refining the descriptors. They presented initial not taken into account in the complexity and difference recommendations to an independent scrutiny group in in that individual’s situation. December 2010, and both groups jointly submitted their report to the independent review in April 2011. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- Following two written parliamentary questions and op): Does my hon. Friend agree that the problems tend some initial reluctance to publish, the Minister was to be compounded when people have to appeal, particularly good enough to place a copy of the document in the as appeals require advocates who have some knowledge Library on 1 December 2011. Professor Harrington of mental health issues? They are few and far between, endorsed the report and its recommendations in his and services are stretched at the moment. second independent review, which was published in November 2011. Parallel with that, there was an internal Sheila Gilmore: They are indeed, and the issues involve review by the Department for Work and Pensions, and both the still considerable waiting times for appeal, and as a result the descriptors were changed in March 2011. the fact that appeals may be specialised. We know that In the report prepared for Professor Harrington, the those who are represented have a different outcome charities reaffirmed the importance of getting the descriptors from those who are not. right, and said: “Some of the problems...are probably attributable to procedural Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I am or training factors. However...it is inconceivable that the descriptors grateful to the hon. Lady not just for giving way, but for do not contribute substantially to this unacceptably high error her persistence in pressing the issue, particularly in rate in decisions.” parliamentary questions to obtain information. A key It concluded that the internal review had not resolved recommendation in the Harrington review that relates the concerns, and it noted specifically that measuring to this debate and particularly the point she is making is just one of the relevant aspects of an applicant’s condition, that each and every assessment centre should have a 69WH Work Capability Assessment13 MARCH 2012 Work Capability Assessment 70WH mental, cognitive and intellectual champion. Only two The charities have also expressed concern that a assessment centres in Scotland have one, although all number of civil servants on the employment and support centres were supposed to have champions by this time allowance team have recently moved on and have not last year. Does the hon. Lady share my concern about yet been replaced. As a result, the DWP claims to have that? insufficient staff to initiate the review. Will the Minister ensure that staff are allocated to the ESA team to carry Sheila Gilmore: I do share that concern, and the out the gold standard review? If the DWP is unable to recommendation, which the Government indicated initially provide staff to carry out that review, the charities have that they would accept, was that there would be such suggested that such work could be contracted out to an champions in all assessment centres. I appreciate that independent organisation. If that were to happen, would some centres are small and isolated, but two in the the Minister accept the findings of that review? whole of Scotland is low, and it will be difficult for them to make a significant impression on the system. The Government accepted a suggestion about revising the ESA50 questionnaire that people fill in when making Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): A distressing case an initial application, and the idea was to reconsider recently at my surgery was a constituent who was in and adapt, although not change substantially, the wording tears and crying hysterically because she believed that of the existing descriptors. Will the Minister tell us what she had been placed in the wrong work-related activity progress has been made on that? group. She is appealing, but the appeal process in More broadly, my fear is that the Minister might use Nottingham takes an average of 56 weeks. She is really the cover of the gold standard review to kick the struggling in that group—she is asked to carry out role proposals into the longish grass because looking at a play and interviews when she believes that she is in the better way of assessing mental, intellectual and cognitive wrong group. I thank my hon. Friend for raising the functions would shine a light on the whole work capability issue, and hope that she will press the Minister to assessment process. That was illustrated by the Minister’s address my constituent’s case. response to an oral question from my hon. Friend the Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for her helpful Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) on 24 October intervention. 2011. She asked whether the Government would be implementing the recommendations in the report and On the current descriptors, Michael would be unlikely the Minister replied: to score any points. Because of the multi-dimensional nature of the proposed descriptors different aspects are “The challenge facing us is that the recommendations will involve a complete change of the work capability assessment, not looked at, including the severity of an applicant’s difficulties simply for mental health issues, but for physical issues, and is with social engagement, the degree to which that varies therefore a multi-year project. We are considering whether we can between familiar and unfamiliar people, and how frequently incorporate elements of the recommendations into the current that occurs. Those separate factors are scored, and are approach much more quickly.”—[Official Report, 24 October then multiplied together, with final points being allocated 2011; Vol. 534, c. 8.] accordingly. The view in the report is that someone such Perhaps that is the crux of the matter. The Minister as Michael would be expected to be awarded around appears to be saying that a substantial change of approach nine points rather than none. is needed to the whole way that assessment is carried The purpose of the proposed descriptors is to account out for issues of physical as well as mental health. The better for fluctuations in impairment that are commonplace longer the process takes, however, the more people are in such illnesses, and the amount of support a person at risk of being wrongly assessed as fit for work, with all might need to overcome their impairment. They are the stress and emotional turmoil that that causes. That structured in such a way that they could be used as the is not a small matter for the DWP given the high rate of direct basis for the questions and would be better appeal and the cost and effort involved. understood by the claimant. In conclusion, I urge the Minister to press on with the Those were the recommendations in the report, but gold standard review for mental, intellectual and cognitive what about the Government’s response? As Professor function. In doing so, however, he should not shy away Harrington made clear when he passed his report to the from confronting the real issues that exist with other Government, he endorsed the proposals when writing aspects of the work capability assessment. his second review. To date, however, the Department for Work and Pensions has decided not to introduce the 1.44 pm new descriptors, arguing either that there is insufficient evidence that the current descriptors are not working—that The Minister of State, Department for Work and seems surprising given that that point was made in Pensions (Chris Grayling): I have a sense of déjà-vu Professor Harrington’s first review and was accepted by because the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila the Government—or that the new ones would work Gilmore) and I are continuing a debate, albeit on a better. In response, the Government said that the different subject, from an hour ago. Department would “consider” a gold standard review Let me start by saying that it is of paramount importance that would take place in the first half of 2012. to get right issues of mental health in the work capability The charities that are involved in these matters accept assessment process. That is the most difficult challenge, that more research is needed, but in the run-up to this because in many respects mental health can be the most debate they expressed their concern that no gold standard intangible of the various areas that we need to assess review has yet been initiated. Will the Minister confirm when we seek to understand what people can and whether such a review will take place, and if so, when? cannot do, and there are clearly many people with Have DWP officials met with Professor Harrington, mental health problems who cannot possibly be expected Mind, Mencap and the National Autistic Society regarding to work. I do not have detailed knowledge of the case the establishment of such a review? highlighted by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria 71WH Work Capability Assessment13 MARCH 2012 Work Capability Assessment 72WH

[Chris Grayling] Dr Whiteford: I should like to bring the Minister back to the first Harrington review, particularly De Piero), but people will appear in our surgeries saying recommendation 7. He has previously told Members, that something is not fair or right, or that they are in the including myself, that those recommendations have been wrong group. Some people will genuinely believe that taken on board and implemented, but why has they cannot return to work, but that will not always be recommendation 7 not been implemented in Scotland? the case. A few weeks ago, I sat with a woman in one of our Chris Grayling: In relation to mental health champions, Work programme centres. She had arrived having been let me explain some of the things that we have done mandated to the Work programme after 14 years off for mental health patients. We have a pool of about work with chronic depression, and she said that on the 60 specialists who provide advice within the Atos network, first day she was in tears, did not believe that she should and their skills are available to every centre, either in be there and that she was protesting bitterly. I met her person or by phone. Professor Harrington has looked at about eight weeks later, by which time she had started how we implemented that change, and he praised it doing voluntary work in a charity shop and had begun because he thinks that it was done well and effectively. to apply for jobs, and she said that that was the right We think that we have delivered that expertise, as does thing to do after all. We will not always get it right, but Professor Harrington who is an independent assessor we are taking some people down a path that can be and can say whether or not his recommendation has right for them, even if they are reluctant to follow it at been implemented properly, which in his view it has first. been. If I find evidence that we are not getting things right, Gloria De Piero: I accept what the Minister says, but we are open to change. As I have said from the start, does he agree that to decide whether someone is in the this programme does not have a financial target and is right group and has the right of appeal—which in itself about saving lives, not saving money. If we are successful acknowledges trial and error—56 weeks is too long? in moving people back into work it will, of course, reduce the cost to the welfare state, but it will do so in a Chris Grayling: I completely accept that, and we have right and positive way that will help people such as the started to reduce the backlog of cases. It is a big woman whom I described, whom I hope will return, challenge, and we have put extra resources into the step by step, to the workplace. The alternative is for her tribunal service for that. We have also tried to strengthen to spend the rest of her life on benefits suffering from the reconsideration process in Jobcentre Plus, so that depression at home, and no one benefits from that. new medical evidence seldom appears at appeal stage. That is the spirit in which we have approached all In his first report, Professor Harrington stated that one this. We tried very hard to ensure that we got it right key reason why so many decisions were being overturned with the internal review. There was no particular reason on appeal was that new evidence was appearing at for me to implement the internal review. It was set up by appeal stage. We have tried hard, both at the start of the the previous Government. The findings were put together assessment process and the reconsideration stage, to by the previous Government. It would have been easy ensure that such evidence is in place. just to say no, but the advice was that it would increase I ask the hon. Member for Edinburgh East to step the size of the support group, and that is what has back for a moment because it is tempting to take what happened. I regard that as a positive step. I always said, the charities say at face value. Charities do good work and said on a number of occasions in the House, that I and have long experience, but they do not always get it was happy to see the dividing line between the work-related right and the internal review was the clearest example of activity group and the support group move a bit in the that. I sat through meeting after meeting with the direction of caution, because we are trying to get this charities at which they said that we should not proceed right and I do not want people in the wrong place. with the internal review because it would lead to more There will never be a perfect system—I wish there people with mental health problems being found fit for would be—but we shall try to get this right. work and that all the evidence suggested that it was the I will move on to the recommendations of the work wrong thing to do. carried out by the charities. I commissioned that myself. Work had been done by the previous Government I asked the charities to come back with recommended using the approach that the Department always takes to changes to the descriptors. I very much wanted, and do such matters, which is to take a batch of cases, put them want, to get this right. The problem is straightforward: through a new methodology and see what difference they did not actually do what they were asked to do. that makes. Our team of officials advised that, although They were asked to make recommendations about further there were fewer descriptors, the changes would lead to ways to improve the descriptors that would allow us an increased number of mental health claimants in the further to ensure that the assessment process for people support group. The charities protested and said, “That with mental health challenges was accurate, effective won’t happen; you’re wrong. That is not the case and and reflected their needs and potential. That is not what you shouldn’t do it.” A few months later, however, that happened. internal review led to an increased number of mental The charities came back with a recommended system health patients in the support group. Indeed, the support that would have involved tearing up the whole work group as a whole has got bigger. It is easy for groups capability assessment for mental, fluctuating and physical that advocate change to existing systems to say, “We’ve conditions and starting again from scratch, redoing all got the experience; we’re right and you must do this,” our computer systems and all the training for every but that is not always the case. It was certainly not the member of staff in the entire network. That was not just case for the internal review. a tweak; it was a comprehensive change to the whole 73WH Work Capability Assessment13 MARCH 2012 Work Capability Assessment 74WH thing, based on no actual evidence. The charities did as well. Is there a reason why the Minister thinks that not come forward with tangible evidence. They simply the change in the descriptors has resulted in more said, “We think it would work better this way.” They people being put into the support group? may or may not be right, but that is quite a big step to take just on the basis of a set of recommendations from a group of charities that had been proved wrong in the Chris Grayling: The general view of the team who internal review process. worked on the internal review was that the assessors were better placed with a broader base and less specific descriptors in relation to mental health. People should Sheila Gilmore: The recommendations from the charities bear in mind that both the assessors and the subsequent were put to an independent scrutiny panel that had a tribunals and decision makers have to operate to a large number of people with considerable expertise, so pretty tight template around the descriptors as set in will the Minister agree that it is not true to say that they law. By creating additional flexibility within the descriptors, were simply the recommendations of a group of charities? we end up with more people being put into the support group than was previously the case, and that is indeed Chris Grayling: That is the case, but what we lack and what happened. what we intend now to get is hard evidence to determine whether this is right. Given that the charities were I thought that there was good and sensible thinking wrong the first time round, I am very reluctant to tear in the way that the charities brought forward their ideas. up the whole thing and redo all the computer systems—a We made some pretty rapid changes. We have continued vast amount of change; probably a two or three-year to adapt the ESA50. We have adapted our training, so project—only to discover that that does not make a that some of the issues that they have highlighted are difference. built more clearly into it. We have also invited all the charities—some have taken this up—to work with decision Alongside this, we have been doing work on fluctuating makers, to contribute to the training process for decision conditions. These are the two particularly challenging makers. areas. Fluctuating conditions can represent a real challenge in the assessment process, because someone who is fine Probably the biggest change that we made to the one day may not be fine the next. There are a range of whole process was to de-emphasise slightly the role of fluctuating conditions and, again, I want to be careful the assessment itself. One of the criticisms levelled at to ensure that we get this as right as we can. In a the whole WCA process before we took over was that it moment, I will touch on some of the changes that we was much too formulaic, with far too little flexibility. Of have made. I just want to explain first where the issue course, one of the reasons for the appeals issue was that arises with the new set of recommendations. a vast amount of new evidence came forward only at The working group on fluctuating conditions reported the appeal stage. As a result of Professor Harrington’s at the end of last year. We intend this year to do that report, we tried to create a more holistic process, so we gold standard work, which in effect involves applying actively ask people for evidence from their specialists up the new systems recommended by both groups to a set front. group of cases to understand what the difference would Our decision makers have the discretion to look for have been. If we discover that there is very little variation additional evidence at the point at which they reach between what they are recommending and the existing their view, based on the evidence that has been submitted system, there will be no point in changing it. If we by the individual themselves, the ESA50 and the outcome discover big changes, we will want to understand why. of the work capability assessment. Likewise, we now I am perfectly open to making changes in the future if I actively encourage people to supply new evidence at the think that that will make a significant difference. I will reconsideration stage. It is now almost universally the state again that we are not trying to force into work case that we see most if not all of the evidence before it people who should not be there. We are not trying to get leaves Jobcentre Plus. That has to be the right thing to this wrong, but at the same time this is not about a do. simple change. It is not about introducing mental health champions throughout the network, improving the quality We have tried to build the learning from the work of the telephony process, ensuring that our staff are done by the mental health group and by the fluctuating better trained or strengthening the reconsideration process. conditions group into the decision making that is already It is about tearing the whole thing up and starting happening. We have not parked this on the sidelines and again. That is quite a big step and a very long step to said that we will come back to it at a later date. I can take. explain my problem using the analogy that I used in the Select Committee. It is rather like taking one’s car in for We shall do the gold standard work. We have already a service. When we come back at the end of the day, it done the initial scoping work. It is very important that looks great. The people who did the service have done a that is completed. I am very open to making changes, brilliant job, but they have turned it into a boat. That is but I will not make changes on the hoof without clear not a lot of use if we have to drive it on the road. That, evidence that they will make a difference. The hard in a nutshell, is the position that I am in. The charities evidence that was there for the internal review, which I made a recommendation. If they had recommended based my judgment on, proved to be right, whereas the some tweaks to the descriptors, we would have done external advice, based on what the charities thought, that by now, but they did not; they recommended a proved to be wrong, so we have to be very careful. total transformation of the whole process, including redoing everything for physical health conditions as Sheila Gilmore: I thank the Minister for taking another well—all the descriptors for them—a new scoring system intervention. Obviously, there have been many changes and a new computer system. It would be and will be, if in the system and changes initiated after Harrington 1 we do it, a monumental task. 75WH Work Capability Assessment13 MARCH 2012 Work Capability Assessment 76WH

[Chris Grayling] appeal process. We are not talking about putting people into a position whereby they are doing an activity that is We are therefore putting together the mental health damaging to them. We are, step by step, helping people work and the fluctuating conditions work. We are looking to get back into a process whereby they can apply for at the consequences of the approach, through the gold jobs and get into work—sometimes quite gently. standard review, in a way that the previous Government did, and rightly so. It involves taking a selection of Sheila Gilmore: Will the Minister clarify, if the gold cases, applying the new methodology and understanding standard review has now started, whether he has any what the difference would be. However, we are not anticipated time scale for its concluding? sitting on our hands in the meantime. We are not just saying, “Well, that work has been done. Maybe we’ll get Chris Grayling: I have not instantly, but it is certainly round to it at some point in the future.” We have used my intention that we will complete it within the next few that as the basis for changes across the way that we months, as we said that we would. I think that it is interact with people through the assessment process, necessary to understand the impact. Above all, I want because we genuinely want to get it right. to get this right. Our objective has only ever been to find the right number of people we can help back to work, I have said on many occasions that this is about not any number of people. That is a human goal, not a helping people who are potentially able to return to financial one. work to do so. That is the right thing to do. We will not always get the decision making right, whatever we do. Question put and agreed to. Even if we implement everything that the charities are recommending, we still will not have a system that is 1.59 pm perfect in all circumstances. That is why we have the Sitting adjourned. 11WS Written Ministerial Statements13 MARCH 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS

In line with the Government’s 2010 emergency Budget, Written Ministerial which announced a two-year pay freeze for all public sector employees, the AFPRB basic military salary Statements recommendations are only for those personnel earning £21,000 or less where the recommendation is for an increase of £250. The AFPRB also recommended a Tuesday 13 March 2012 reduction in the qualifying interval between levels of longer separation allowance. There is also an increase to food and accommodation charges. These recommendations TREASURY will be effective from 1 April 2012. The Government have also accepted the AFPRB recommendation to harmonise the pay for graduate and non-graduate officers Anti-avoidance and this will be effective from Copies of the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body report The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David are available in the Vote Office. Gauke): The Government are committed to tackling tax avoidance to ensure the Exchequer is protected and fairness is maintained for the taxpayer. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER HMRC have recently become aware of an avoidance scheme that seeks to generate loss relief from a property business that holds an agricultural estate. It is intended Bill of Rights Commission (Membership) that this loss can then be set-off by users of the scheme against their other income. This scheme relies on arrangements that have a tax avoidance purpose. The The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Government do not accept that these arrangements Harper): The Government made a written ministerial have the effect that is sought, but to remove any doubt statement on 18 March 2011, Official Report, column prompt action is being taken to protect the Exchequer. 31WS, announcing the establishment of an independent I am today announcing that legislation will be introduced Commission to investigate the creation of a UK Bill of in the Finance Bill 2012 to prevent property business Rights. The membership of the Commission has now loss relief being given where allowable agricultural expenses changed. arise from arrangements entered into in which the main The Commission is chaired by Sir Leigh Lewis KCB, purpose, or one of the main purposes, is to obtain a tax a former permanent secretary at the Department for reduction. The legislation will have effect from today Work and Pensions with a long career in public service. and will protect significant amounts of revenue. Sir Leigh Lewis is joined on the Commission by: Jonathan We have acted quickly to prevent the use of this Fisher QC, Martin Howe QC, Baroness Kennedy of the particular scheme and we will not hesitate to close Shaws QC, Lord Lester of Herne Hill QC, Philippe down other schemes representing a significant risk to Sands QC, Anthony Speaight QC, Professor Sir David the Exchequer as we become aware of them. Edward QC and the recently appointed Lord Faulks QC. Since the scheme that HMRC has become aware of is the third avoidance scheme that has targeted trading The terms of reference for the Commission remain and property reliefs, there is a risk that further schemes unchanged. The Commission is investigating the creation may seek to exploit one or other of these reliefs. of a UK Bill of Rights that incorporates and builds I am therefore also announcing that the Government on all our obligations under the European Convention will introduce further legislation in the Finance Bill on Human Rights, ensures that these rights continue to 2012 to prevent post-cessation property relief being be enshrined in UK law, and protects and extends our given where a qualifying payment or qualifying event liberties. It is examining the operation and implementation arises from arrangements entered into in which the of these obligations, and considering ways to promote a main purpose, or one of the main purposes, is to obtain better understanding of the true scope of these obligations a tax reduction. This legislation will also have effect and liberties. The Commission reports jointly to the from today. Deputy Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Justice. The Commission is supported in its work by a Draft legislation and further details of this measure small secretariat of civil servants. are being published on HMRC’s website today.

DEFENCE EDUCATION

Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body Report Early Intervention Foundation

The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): The Minister of State, Department for Education The 2012 report of the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body (Sarah Teather): The Government recognise that early (AFPRB) has now been published. I wish to express my intervention is an important area. It makes sense, wherever thanks to the chairman and members of the review possible, to prevent problems or address them early on. body for their report. I am pleased to confirm that the Taking this preventive approach will support children AFPRB’s recommendations are to be accepted in full. to achieve their full potential, reducing costs to the state 13WS Written Ministerial Statements13 MARCH 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS of later educational failure and offering a wide range of the recommendation and expect to be in a position to associated benefits in participation, productivity, behaviour, make a decision by the end of the month. We will take health and social cohesion. Offering early help is central forward the suggested actions, which will help us continue to the Government’s commitment to unlock social mobility to improve our support for the DDRB’s important and tackle child poverty. work. On 27 February 2012, Official Report, column 11, in answer to a question from the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) I confirmed that the Government HOME DEPARTMENT plans to procure the early intervention foundation. The new foundation will have two key roles: providing advice and support to local commissioners on Transit Visa Requirements (Syrian, Libyan and evidence, social finance and payment by results relating to Egyptian Nationals) early intervention to assist their own procurement and evaluation; and building the evidence base on what works in early intervention The Secretary of State for the Home Department in the UK. (Mrs Theresa May): Today my right hon. Friend the The Department will issue a public notification shortly Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth in advance of an open and competitive procurement. Affairs and I will inform the Governments of Syria, Government have always been clear that an open and Libya and Egypt that we will be introducing a change to competitive tender process is the best way to ensure the transit visa regime for the citizens of Syria, Libya value for taxpayers’ money. and Egypt travelling to the United Kingdom. We see The Government have secured £3.5 million to fund this as a necessary measure to protect the security of the foundation for a two-year period. The contract will our borders. run for up to two years after which it will become Britain is a major hub for transit passengers travelling self-financing, and Government funding will cease. on long haul flights. The volume of traffic passing through the UK is increasing and poses new challenges. Since 2003 certain nationalities have been required to HEALTH obtain a visa before they travel, including if they are in transit to another destination and are arriving at and leaving from the same airport. This is known as a Direct NHS Pay Review Body Airside Transit Visa (DATV). Since the introduction of the DATV regime a number of countries have been The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): added to the list of those required to obtain a transit I am responding on behalf of my right hon. Friend the visa before transiting the UK. This has been done as a Prime Minister to the 26th report of the NHS Pay direct response to emerging security and immigration Review Body (NHSPRB). The report has been laid threats to the UK, and we will continue to monitor risks before Parliament today (Cm 8298). Copies of the and threats. report are available to hon. Members from the Vote The implementation of the DATV regime allows us Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper to run comprehensive checks on those transiting the Office. I am grateful to the chair and members of the UK, and prevents high harm individuals from travelling NHSPRB for their report. here. Since the original introduction of the DATV there We welcome the NHS Pay Review Body’s 26th report, has been a noticeable fall in transit passengers destroying note its observations and accept its recommendations in their travel documents before claiming asylum. The visa full. In the light of a tough economic climate, I am process means that we are able to collect pre-travel pleased to confirm that lower paid NHS staff earning information as part of the application process which £21,000 or less will receive a flat rate increase of £250 makes identification and checks more robust. from 1 April 2012. This will support continuing NHS The situation in Syria continues to pose a serious service improvements and the position of lower paid concern to us and the wider international community. NHS staff. Libya and Egypt are emerging from a period of instability. We therefore assess that requiring nationals of these Review Body on Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration countries to obtain a visa for transit through the UK is both a sensible and proportionate response to the threat posed to the UK’s national and border security. The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): I am responding on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the 40th report of the Review Body JUSTICE on Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration (DDRB). The report has been laid before Parliament today (Cm 8301). Copies of the report are available to hon. Members Prison Service Pay Review Body (11th Report) from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. I am grateful to the chair and members of the DDRB for their report. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice We welcome the 40th report of the Review Body on (Mr Crispin Blunt): The 11th report of the Prison Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration and note its Service Pay Review Body (PSPRB) (Cm 8300) has observations and recommendation to the Scottish been laid before Parliament today. The report makes Government. The Scottish Government are still considering recommendations for staff within the remit group who 15WS Written Ministerial Statements13 MARCH 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS earn the full-time equivalent of £21,000 and below, and Judiciary who are eligible for an increase in 2012-13 under the The Government note the review body’s comments Government’s announced pay policy for public sector about judicial remuneration and thanks it for its ongoing workforces. Copies have been placed in the Vote Office, work in this area. the Printed Paper Office and the Libraries of both Houses. I am grateful to the Chair and members of the The Government continue to consider the PSPRB for their hard work in producing these recommendations that the review body made last year recommendations. following its most recent major review of the judicial salaries structure, and in the context of the announcement The PSPRB key recommendations for 2012 are as in the autumn statement in November 2011, that public follows: sector pay awards will average 1% for the two years a consolidated increase of £250 to all pay points at or below following the implementation of the current two-year £21,000, including the first two points on the closed prison pay freeze. As such, the Government will respond to the officer scale; major review recommendations as a whole, rather than endorsement of the introduction of the new bands 2 and 3 as individually, when able to do so. It would not be right to part of the wide-scale reforms to pay systems being introduced implement new judicial pay increases during a period of across NOMS. Bands 2 and 3 will apply to new prison officer and OSG entrants and existing prison officer 2 and OSG pay freeze. staff who wish to opt into the new bands from 1 April 2012; Very Senior NHS Managers an increase of 5% to the hourly rate of the Operation The Government will consider the post pay freeze Tornado Emergency Response payment; principles set out by the review body in relation to very all other allowances and payments to be frozen. senior NHS managers. The PSPRB’s recommendations will be implemented Other Review Body reports for 2012-13 in full. The cost of the award will be met from within the delegated budget allocation for the National Offender My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Management Service. Justice, Health and Defence are making statements today on the reports of the Prison Service Pay Review Body, the Doctors’ and Dentists’ Review Body, the NHS Pay Review Body and the Armed Forces’ Pay PRIME MINISTER Review Body in respect of pay for the relevant workforces for 2012-13. The Government’s response to those reports Review Body on Senior Salaries (34th Report) is consistent with the need for senior staff in the public sector to show leadership in the exercise of pay restraint

The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): The 34th report of the Review Body on Senior Salaries (SSRB) is being published today. This makes recommendations TRANSPORT about the pay of the Senior Civil Service (SCS), Senior Military Personnel, the Judiciary and Very Senior NHS Managers. Copies have been laid in the Vote Office, the Street Works Overrun Penalties Printed Paper Office and the Libraries of both Houses. I am grateful to the chairman and members of the review body for their work. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport In the June 2010 Budget, the Government announced (Norman Baker): Today I am announcing the coalition a two-year pay freeze from 2011-12 for public sector Government’s plans to increase the penalties that local workforces, except for those earning a full-time equivalent authorities can impose where street works by utility salary of £21,000 or less, where the Government would companies and others overrun their agreed duration. seek increases of at least £250 per year. This policy is This follows a consultation launched by the previous helping us to protect jobs and the quality of public Government. services as we look to restore the public finances to a sustainable position. The maximum charge for the busiest streets will rise from £2,500 a day to £5,000 a day for the first three days At the same time, we are mindful of the need to of overrun and £10,000 a day thereafter, rather than the ensure that we are capable of recruiting, retaining and £25,000 per day planned by the previous administration. motivating public sector workers with the skills that are I consider that the new charge level will result in a needed. It is on this basis that the Government will decrease in the number of works which overrun their carefully consider the post pay freeze principles set out agreed period, and better reflect the congestion costs by the review body and any wider recommendations overrunning works impose on society. made by them in relation to recruitment, retention and other aspects of the affected workforces. I also intend to change the regulations such that works planned to be only of a short duration attract the Senior Civil Service same overrun charge as those of longer planned durations, The Government will consider the post pay freeze in recognition of the fact that all these works cause principles and any wider recommendations set out by equivalent disruption to the road user. the review body in relation to the SCS. These changes are in line with the Government’s Senior Military Personnel commitment to ensure regulatory proposals are The Government will consider the post pay freeze proportionate, our desire to see congestion caused by principles set out by the review body in relation to the roadworks reduce, and for utilities and others who work senior military personnel. in our streets to be held accountable for that congestion. 17WS Written Ministerial Statements13 MARCH 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

The full consultation response can be found on the need to turn their lives around. This strategy cements Department’s website. the principle that this support must be focused on To take forward these proposals, I will lay regulations recovery, independence, and life change, not simply on before this House in the summer. It is my intention that maintaining people in the circumstances they are in. the changes come into force in October of this year. This strategy also sets out a new approach to delivery, based on locally designed and delivered solutions. New, innovative approaches to service delivery are also integral WORK AND PENSIONS to the strategy, including the use of social investment, smarter commissioning and intensive key worker led Social Justice (Transforming Lives) support. This approach will not be delivered by Government The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr alone. It is essential that we harness the expertise and Iain Duncan Smith): When the Government came into dedication of local leaders, commissioners and delivery power, the Prime Minister set up the Social Justice organisations at all levels, including the voluntary and Cabinet Committee to look across Government at issues community sectors. relating to poverty, equality and social justice, and This strategy sets out an ambitious approach, but one improve the way that we deliver services to those in our that aspires to deliver lasting change. This strategy aims society that face the greatest and most complex to do more than simply increase family income, but disadvantages. address the root causes of poverty and deliver change I am pleased to announce that today this work has that will transform lives. taken a significant step forward with the launch of the Government’s social justice strategy. This strategy sets Social Security Advisory Committee (SSAC) out an ambitious new vision for supporting the most disadvantaged individuals and families in the UK, as well as outlining where the Government are already The Minister of State, Department for Work and making progress on this agenda. The strategy embeds Pensions (Chris Grayling): I have today launched a two key principles into the heart of Government policy review of the Social Security Advisory Committee (SSAC). delivery. As part of the Government’s continuing drive for efficiency First, a focus on prevention throughout a person’s and effectiveness, all Departments are required to review life, targeting the root causes rather than the symptoms their arm’s length bodies at least once every three years of social breakdown to stop people falling off track and to challenge whether the functions they perform are still into difficult circumstances. This starts with support for necessary and, if so, whether it is still appropriate for the most important building block in a child’s life—the them to be delivered in the same way. The review of the family—but also covers reform of the school and youth Social Security Advisory Committee will look at the justice systems, the welfare system, and beyond to look Committee’s functions and whether it needs to continue at how we can prevent damaging behaviours like substance to exist. If the review determines that the Committee abuse and offending. should continue, it will go on to examine its corporate Secondly, the strategy sets out the Government’s vision governance mechanisms. I will inform the House of the for a ‘second chance society’. When problems do arise, outcome of the review when it is completed and place a people must be able to access the help and support they copy of the outcome in the Library. 133W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 134W

Mr Robathan: The Future Accommodation Project is Written Answers to considering a range of options as part of the work on the New Employment Model (NEM). The NEM is Questions tasked with developing a future employment model that is affordable and balances the aspirations of service personnel with the demands that service life makes on Tuesday 13 March 2012 them. It is too early to speculate as to what savings may arise, as all NEM proposals are still in development. DEFENCE Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Air Training Corps: Disciplinary Proceedings Defence (1) what the budget for service married living quarters was in each year from 2000-01 to 2011-12; and Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the planned budget is for 2012-13; [99200] (1) pursuant to the answer of 27 February 2012, (2) what the armed forces housing budget was in Official Report, column 30W, on air training corps: each year from 2000-01 to 2011-12; and what it is disciplinary proceedings, how many of the outstanding planned to be in 2012-13. [99201] cases from (a) 2010 and (b) 2011 are awaiting (i) reports and (ii) the outcome of investigations by (A) Mr Robathan: Due to changed responsibilities between police forces and (B) auditors or accountants; and if he parts of the MOD over this period, information is only will make a statement; [98528] held on a consistent basis in respect of housing in Great (2) how many of the cases outstanding in 2010 and Britain. The budgets for service married living quarters 2011 are awaiting (a) reports and (b) the outcome of in Great Britain since 2001 are shown in the following investigations by (i) police forces and (ii) auditors and table: accountants; and if he will make a statement. [98780] £ million Mr Robathan: Of those personnel suspended in 2010, one individual is awaiting the outcome of a police 2001-02 307 investigation or court case and one is awaiting the 2002-03 288 outcome of internal administrative action. For those 2003-04 330 suspensions made in 2011, three individuals are awaiting 2004-05 318 the outcome of police investigations or court cases and 2005-06 350 six are awaiting the outcome of internal administrative 2006-07 371 action. None of these cases are subject to review by 2007-08 394 accountants or auditors. 2008-09 405 2009-10 422 Armed Forces 2010-11 429 2011-12 435 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many members of the armed forces were After taking account of income from service personnel (a) married, (b) cohabiting and (c) in a relationship for rent and contributions in lieu of council tax and when they joined the services in the latest period for certain other costs, the overall budgets allocated for which figures are available. [99228] armed forces housing have been as follows:

Mr Robathan [holding answer 12 March 2012]: A £ million personal status is recorded on the Joint Personnel Administration system on enlistment for the purposes 2001-02 193 of determining entitlement to some allowances and 2002-03 170 liability for dependent children, rather than the legal 2003-04 204 marital status of personnel. As these are private life 2004-05 189 matters there is no mandatory requirement for personnel 2005-06 220 to advise the Ministry of Defence if they are cohabiting 2006-07 240 or in a relationship. 2007-08 261 Any information which is held would be on manual 2008-09 270 records, and could be obtained only by undertaking a 2009-10 282 manual search of records on multiple sites. This information 2010-11 286 could therefore be provided only at disproportionate 2011-12 288 cost. The Department is in the process of finalising the Armed Forces: Housing Planning Round and final budgets for 2012-13 have not been set. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate the potential annual savings Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for to his Department if married couples in the armed Defence (1) how many couples in each year since 2000 services were required to leave married living quarters had lived in service married living quarters for a longer after eight years of residence. [99111] period than eight years; [99202] 135W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 136W

(2) how many people in each year since 2000 had Housing Region Location Total lived in service married living quarters for eight years; [99203] Grantham 59 (3) how many married couples were housed in Henlow 418 service married living quarters in each year since 2000. Honington 484 [99205] Loughborough 30 Mr Robathan: As at 7 March 2012, 42,581 service Marham 641 family accommodation (SFA) were occupied. 36,466 Melton Mowbray 39 families were in a marriage or civil partnership. North Luffenham 202 Information on the number of occupied SFA per Norwich 7 year (rounded to the nearest thousand) is shown in the Old Dalby 24 following table: Swanton Morley 237 Waterbeach 312 Number of occupied SFA Wattisham 541 2000 50,000 Wigston 5 2001 49,000 Wimbish 251 2002 46,000 Wittering 453 2003 45,000 2004 45,000 Woodbridge 257 2005 44,000 Total 6,463 2006 42,000 2007 41,000 Northern Area Bardney 16 2008 41,000 Catterick 1,753 2009 42,000 Coningsby 321 2010 42,000 Cranwell 360 2011 43,000 Brampton (Cumbria) 36 Currently over 12,000 families have resided in SFA Digby 211 continually for the last eight years. Dishforth 196 Further information is not available. Driffield 15 Fulford 144 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Harrogate 136 Defence how many service married living quarters there are in each (a) region, (b) local authority area Kirton in Lindsey 57 and (c) constituency. [99204] Leconfield 113 Leeming 442 Mr Robathan: A list of Service Family Accommodation Linton on Ouse 160 (SFA) in each housing region as of 8 March 2012 is shown in the table. RAF Boulmer 189 Ripon 277 Data on SFA in each local authority area or constituency is not held. Scampton 161 South Yorks 6 Housing Region Location Total Strensall 183 Central Area Abingdon 607 Topcliffe 175 Beaconsfield 86 Tyne Tees 185 Benson 599 Waddington 394 Bicester 288 West Yorks 3 Brize Norton 1,061 Whitby 28 Halton 395 Total 5,561 High Wycombe 796 Shrivenham 567 Scotland and Aldergrove 634 Total 4,399 Northern Ireland Area Ballykinler 199 East Area Bassingbourne 149 Brampton 481 Buchan 13 Chicks Ands 255 Craigehall 130 Chilwell 180 Dreghorn 167 Colchester 953 Glasgow 155 Coltishall 27 Helensburgh 595 Cottesmore 458 Holywood 370 137W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 138W

Housing Region Location Total Housing Region Location Total

Inverness 221 Ilchester 274 Kinloss 243 Lympstone 258 Leuchars 623 Lyneham 896 Lisburn 481 Plymouth 649 Lossiemouth 661 Plymstock 107 Polton 275 Poole 178 Redford 185 Salisbury Plain 3,227 Total 4,952 South Cerney 137 St Mawgan 159 South East Area Aldershot 675 Taunton 47 Arborfield 440 Warminster 146 Ash Vale 32 West Moors 59 Biggin Hill 184 Yeovil 202 Bordon 450 Total 10,632 Burghfield 74

Chatham 667 West Area Bramcote 206 Chichester 63 Brecon 184 Church Crookham 598 Castlemartin 5 Connaught 161 Chepstow 195 Dover 18 Chester 202 Farnborough 31 Cosford 384 Gosport 697 Donnington/Market Drayton 241 Hermitage 139 Haverfordwest 189 London Centre 348 Hereford 261 Marchwood 26 Innsworth 525 Middle Hill 513 Kineton 116 Northolt 403 Lichfield 162 Northwood 372 Malvern 41 Odiham 441 Shawbury/Shrewsbury 185 Pirbright 486 St Athan 335 Portsmouth 705 Stafford 226 Putney 329 Telford 105 Rowner 854 Ternhill 180 Sandhurst 798 Valley 165 Shornecliffe 944 Weeton 313 Stamshaw 620 Total 4,220 Stanmore 218 Uxbridge 290 Grand total 48,979 West Byfleet 340 Winchester 178 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Windsor 454 Defence what the average annual cost to the public Woolwich 204 purse of service married living quarters was in the Total 12,752 latest year for which figures are available. [99216]

Mr Robathan: The average annual cost to the public South West Area Blandford 782 purse of providing service married quarters for each Bovington 348 family occupying housing in Great Britain was some Bristol/Bath/Trowbridge 37 £7,400 in 2011-12. This cost does not, however, take Bulford/Tidworth 1,592 account of depreciation charges on properties owned Chivenor 292 by the Department in Scotland and some properties in England and Wales. Colerne 370 Corsham 267 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Crownhill 265 Defence what employment options for reform of the Culdrose 304 housing system for married couples are being Exeter 36 considered as part of his Department’s new employment model. [99229] 139W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 140W

Mr Robathan [holding answer 12 March 2012]: I will be very small and unlike claims for accidental refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my noble death, natural causes deaths will rarely be directly related Friend, Lord de Mauley, to the noble Lord, Lord to the location. Palmer of Childs Hill in another place on 1 March The Sterling Life Group has provided the following 2012, Official Report, House of Lords, column 1424. information: From 2007-11 Service Life Insurance (SLI), the Armed Forces: Life Insurance contracted MOD Life Insurance scheme, has paid 79 claims in total. Some 61 of these are considered operational Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for deaths. Defence (1) what the average compensation payment The total claims paid from 2007-11 is £12,709,000, was to bereaved service families from PAX life with the average claims payment to bereaved service insurance in (a) the last year, (b) the last five years families being £160,873. and (c) the last 10 years; [98766] (2) how many families have been paid compensation Armed Forces: Mental Health by PAX life insurance following the death of a family member serving in HM forces in (a) Iraq and (b) Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan in each of the last 12 years. [98767] Defence (1) if he will establish procedures of continuous assessment of the psychological health of Mr Robathan [holding answer 8 March 2012]: Personal service personnel and the provision of guidance and accident and life cover is voluntary and is separate from assistance to then as necessary; [98990] the benefits provided by the Ministry of Defence (MOD). (2) what proportion of service personnel in each We have a duty of care, however, to ensure that personal branch of the armed forces were undergoing accident and life insurance cover is available to those psychological (a) testing and (b) training in the latest service personnel who consider that they require it, and period for which information is available. [98995] the MOD does this through the PAX and Service Life Insurance (SLI) schemes provided through Aon for Mr Robathan: The UK armed forces do not currently PAX and the Sterling Insurance Group for SLI. have a programme of mandatory mental health screening, The following information has been provided by Aon. because no robust research-based evidence has been The personal accident section of the PAX Plan provides produced to show that it is effective in identifying those compensation for death or permanent disability following people who do have a problem. In fact, research undertaken an accident, on or off duty anywhere in the world. The at the King’s Centre for Mental Health Research (KCMHR) amount of claim paid will depend on the level of cover indicates that in some circumstances it can actually be purchased by the service person for themselves and, if harmful, by presenting significant numbers of both applicable, their family. The benefit payable in respect false positive and false negative results. However, we of accidental death varies with the level of cover purchased, have undertaken to commission new research into the from £10,000 for the minimum cover, up to £150,000 for question, and the major post-operational screening trial the maximum level of cover. (POST) being conducted at the King’s Centre for Mental Health Research (KCMHR) in conjunction with the Some 57 accidental death claims were paid in the last US Department of Defense, which is due to report in year, and 182 in the last five years. It is has not been 2015, is looking at the effectiveness of post-deployment possible in the time available to identify the number of testing and monitoring of personnel. accidental death claims in the last 10 years. We do of course already have a wide range of measures Of the 57 deaths during the 12 months to 31 December in place to provide advice, support and treatment to 2011, 39 were as a result of injuries sustained in Afghanistan; service personnel. We are ensuring that all routine medical there were none from Iraq. examinations contain a specific mental health assessment, Of the 182 accidental death claims over the past five including those carried out on recruits and those preparing years, 133 were from personnel serving in Afghanistan; to leave the services. More specific examinations will there were none from Iraq. also form a part of the medical treatment provided for Taking into account all claims paid for accidental those who have been diagnosed with a mental health death, the average payment was £102,982 during the disorder, either in unit medical centres, MOD departments past year and £92,991 in the past five years. of community mental health, or in specialist NHS If selected, the PAX Optional Life extension adds in-patient units. No overall figures are collated for all cover in respect of death due to natural causes. the various forms of assessments and examinations, and these could be obtained only at disproportionate The average compensation payment to bereaved service cost. families from PAX Life insurance is £111,667 in the last year to 31 December 2011, £68,548 for the last five Throughout their careers service personnel receive years, and £62,135 for the last 10 years. regular briefings and training on the identification and management of both operational and workplace stress, The figures are in respect of death from natural including recognising its signs in their colleagues. A key causes and are for armed forces personnel and insured factor in all briefings is reducing the stigma that can be family members (claims for children under 16-years attached to mental health disorders. The services maintain have been excluded). a confidential support line that provides a fully trained, The Optional Life Extension Insurers regret that it confidential, independent and non-judgmental listening has not been possible to identify natural causes and support service, and welfare officers, padres, and deaths that occurred in either Afghanistan or Iraq, as members of regimental organisations are all able to completed files have been archived. However the number provide advice and support. For those seeking help 141W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 142W online, the Defence internet website provides information Senior civil service—ethnicity breakdown for 1 January 2010, 2011 and 2012 on how to get advice and help urgently, and we are Headcount currently trialling access for service personnel to the As at January each year ’Big White Wall’ online early intervention service for Ethnicity 2010 2011 2012 people in psychological distress. Black and 555 In April 2010, the MOD set up the stress management Minority Ethnic training centre (SMTC) at the Defence academy to White 265 245 230 co-ordinate the provision of training on the identification Grand total 270 250 235 and management of both operational and workplace Source: stress. Its intention is to ensure that all service personnel DASA (Quad) will receive regular briefings and training, starting during Ethnicity proportion SCS and MOD core comparison their initial training and reinforced and developed during Percentage a range of career development and promotion courses. As at January each year Specific training is available for those going on operations, 2010 2011 2012 and this is provided before, during and after their deployment. Because of the wide variety of training SCS 2.6 2.8 2.6 Total MOD 3.2 3.3 3.6 provided, and the different organisations involved in its core delivery, it is not possible to provide a specific number Notes: of those receiving training for any given period. 1. All numbers have been rounded to the nearest five and may not sum precisely to totals. 2. All numbers exclude trading funds, Royal Fleet Auxiliary personnel and Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for locally engaged civilians. Defence if he will (a) release anonymised data on the 3. Percentage rates are calculated on raw unrounded numbers, listed SCS rates mental health of UK service personnel to research are compared to total MOD core, at each time point differences between SCS rates and total MOD core rates are not statistically significant. establishments and (b) commission research on 4. Information for March 2012 is not yet available so comparative figures for improving (i) the mental health of service personnel January have been provided. and (ii) the negative social effects of poor mental Although the numbers of Black and Minority Ethnic health of service personnel. [98991] (BME) senior civil service staff may be too low to show, they are within the expected range based on representation Mr Robathan: A large amount of personal data on in the Ministry of Defence in general. There is no the mental health of UK service personnel have been significant difference in the representation of Black and collected by researchers working for the King’s Centre Minority Ethnic personnel across grades. for Military Health Research (KCMHR), as part of its major independent study, sponsored by the Ministry of Defence (MOD), into the impact of deployment on the Libya: Armed Conflict overall health and well-being of military personnel deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of the findings from Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for this research have already been published in a range of Defence what the estimated cost per vehicle was of (a) peer-reviewed medical literature, and are available through fuel, (b) road tolls, (c) accommodation and (d) other the KCMHR website at: logistics of a return trip from the UK to each base in www.kcl.ac.uk/kcmhr/index.aspx Italy by logistical support provided by No. 2 Mechanical Transport squadron during Operation The MOD values this very important study and will Ellamy. [99102] ensure its findings inform future policy to enhance the health and well-being of military personnel during their Nick Harvey: The estimated cost of transporting service career and beyond. supplies and materials by road to Italy by military vehicles is in the region of £1.6 million. This was done Challenger Tanks by 2 Mechanical Transport Squadron and comprised around 400 vehicle moves to Trapani and Gioia Dell Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Colle. There were also additional road moves made by Defence what progress he has made with the Article 36 contracted commercial carriers. legal review of CHARM3; and if he will make a The costs for each trip were dependent upon the statement. [99568] destination in Italy and changes due to operational requirements. However, the typical cost per vehicle was Nick Harvey: The review is close to completion and around £2,000 for fuel, £650 for road tolls, around will report to MOD Ministers shortly.The review conclusion £300 for accommodation and other personal costs for will be published shortly. drivers and around £500 for Eurotunnel costs.

Departmental Ethnic Minority Staff Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many hire cars were rented for official use Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for by personnel deployed to Italy during Operation Defence how many and what proportion of senior civil Ellamy; and how many personnel on average used each servants in his Department were from an ethnic car. [99103] minority in March (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; and if he will make a statement. [98875] Nick Harvey: At the height of operations around 100 hire vehicles were rented for official use by personnel Mr Robathan: The information requested is provided deployed to Italy supporting Operation Ellamy. This in the following tables: was to support around 900 personnel. 143W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 144W

Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) when (a) he, (b) each Minister in his Defence what criteria were used when deciding where Department and (c) senior officials in his Department to accommodate personnel deployed to Italy during last had discussions concerning the Eurofighter Operation Ellamy. [99104] Typhoon with their counterparts in (i) Oman, (ii) UAE, (iii) Malaysia, (iv) Qatar, (v) Saudi Arabia and (vi) Nick Harvey: At the time of Operation Ellamy the India; [99069] Ministry of Defence assessed the most appropriate (3) when (a) he and (b) his senior civil servants last accommodation for personnel supporting the operation, visited (i) Oman, (ii) UAE, (iii) Malaysia, (iv) Qatar, (v) looking at a range of options from tented or prefabricated Saudi Arabia and (vi) India. [99578] units to apartments or hotel accommodation. These assessments included the value for money of each type Mr Gerald Howarth [holding answer 12 March 2012]: of accommodation, as well as security considerations The Ministry of Defence (MOD) recognises the benefit and took into account the impact on operations of, for Typhoon orders can have on our own Typhoon acquisition example, travel time to place of work and amenities programme. That is why Ministers and officials from available at the accommodation. Contracts were entered the MOD are engaged in an active and innovative into based on our best estimate of the duration and the defence diplomacy initiative to promote Typhoon and evolving nature of the operation. other British defence and security exports. As well as when meeting direct overseas counterparts, Ministers and officials are engaging in extensive consultation Middle East on Typhoon at all levels. The following table shows when each Minister and Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for senior official last held discussions with their direct Defence (1) when (a) he, (b) each Minister in his counterpart. In the case of the Defence Senior Advisor Department and (c) senior officials of his Department Middle East, who has no direct counterpart, his last last met their counterparts in (i) Oman, (ii) UAE, (iii) engagement with Ministers or officials from that country Malaysia, (iv) Qatar, (v) Saudi Arabia and (vi) India; are recorded. Discussions about exports, including Typhoon, [99068] form a routine part of such international engagements.

Oman UAE Malaysia Qatar Saudi Arabia India

Secretary of State for Defence No record of March 2012 No record of January 2012 December 2011 July 2012 meeting meeting counterpart counterpart Minister for Defence Equipment Support No record of No record of No record of No record of No record of July 2011 and Technology meeting meeting meeting meeting meeting counterpart counterpart counterpart counterpart counterpart Minister for International Security Strategy September February 2011 January 2012 November December 2010 February 2012 2011 2011 Under Secretary of State for Defence January 2012 No record of January 2012 December 2011 No record of No record of meeting meeting meeting counterpart counterpart counterpart Chief of Defence Staff December 2011 February 2012 No record of January 2012 April 2011 No record of meeting meeting counterpart counterpart Permanent Under-Secretary No record of No record of June 2011 No record of December 2011 February 2012 meeting meeting meeting counterpart counterpart counterpart Chief of Naval Staff February 2012 No record of May 2011 December 2011 No record of October 2011 meeting meeting counterpart counterpart Chief of General Staff December 2011 No record of November No record of December 2011 February 2012 meeting 2010 meeting counterpart counterpart Chief of Air Staff February 2012 November December 2011 February 12 September February 2012 2011 2011 Defence Senior Advisor Middle East February 2012 February 2012 Not March 2012 February 2012 Not appropriate appropriate

We do not have any records of discussions between Response, (b) Atlantis, (c) Joint Warrior, (d) NATO the Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Tiger Meet and (e) Oceanis in each of the last 5 years; Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), and the [96179] Minister for Defence Personnel Veterans and Welfare, (2) what assets and how many service personnel will my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire participate in NATO exercise (a) Cold Response, (b) (Mr Robathan), and their counterparts. Atlantis, (c) Joint Warrior, (d) NATO Tiger Meet and (e) Oceanis in 2012. [96180] NATO: Military Exercises

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Nick Harvey: Details of the known assets and numbers Defence (1) what assets and how many service of personnel involved in NATO exercises detailed for personnel were involved in NATO exercise (a) Cold 2012 and the previous five years are as follows: 145W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 146W

2012 Total number of Exercise Assets personnel

Cold Response Navy 1 x Landing Platform Dock ship, 1 x Landing Platform Helicopter ship, Royal Marine c.1,000 Commando Amphibious Forces Joint Helicopter Command—a tailored Air Group—not yet confirmed Atlantis No involvement

Joint Warrior 12-2 Not yet available

Joint Warrior 12-1 Not yet confirmed

Tiger Meet Not yet available

Oceanis No involvement

2011 Exercise Assets Total number of personnel

Cold Response No participation Atlantis No involvement Joint Warrior 11-2 Navy 1 x Landing Platform Helicopter Ship, 1 x Landing Platform Dock Ship, 2 x Type 23 Frigate, 1c.7,200 2 x Mine Counter Measures Vessel (Sandown Class), 3 x Mine Counter Measures Vessel (Hunt Class), 1 x Ship Submersible Nuclear (Submarine), 4 x Merlin helicopter, 1 x Lynx helicopter Army 16 Air Assault Brigade, 3 Battalion the Parachute Regiment Battle Gp, 12 Regiment Royal 1— Artillery, 7 Para Royal Horse Artillery, 2 Medical Brigade, Joint Air Picture Provision to the Land Environment, 1 Division/3 Division Forward Air Controller, Joint Ground Based Air Defence, Joint Helicopter Command—4 x Lynx helicopter, 2 x Sea King helicopter, 3 x Attack Helicopter RAF 4 x Tornado strike aircraft, 4 x Typhoon fast jet aircraft, 2 x Hawk trainer aircraft, 1 x E-3D 1— Surveillance/airborne command and aircraft, 1 x Sentinel Reconnaissance aircraft, 1 x VC10 transport/air-fuelling aircraft, 1 x TriStar long range transport aircraft, RAF Regiment Joint Warrior 11-1 Navy 1 x Type 45 Destroyer, 2 x Type 42 Destroyer, 4 x Type 23 Frigate, 3 x Mine Counter 1c.6,200 Measures vessel (S), 2 x Mine Counter Measures vessel (H), 1 x Landing Ship Dock, 1 x Auxiliary Fleet Supply Ship (Helicopter), 1 x Ship Submersible Nuclear (Submarine), 3 x Sea King Airborne Surveillance and Control helicopter , 4 x Merlin helicopter, 6 x Lynx helicopter, Fleet Protection Group Royal Marines Army 15 Psychological Operations Group, 3 (UK) Division, Joint Air Picture Provision to the 1— Land Environment, 16 Regiment Royal Artillery, UK Air Support Operations Centre, B Squadron Household Cavalry Regiment RAF 8 x Tornado strike aircraft, 4 x Typhoon fast jet, 4x Hawk trainer aircraft, 1 x E-3D 1— surveillance and airborne command and control aircraft, 1 x Sentinel reconnaissance aircraft Tiger Meet 1 x Merlin helicopter c.15 Oceanis No involvement 1 Indicates brace

2010 Exercise Assets Total number of personnel

Cold Response Navy 1 x Landing Platform Helicopter ship, 1 x Landing Platform Dock ship, Royal Marines c.2,000 Commando Amphibious Forces, Royal Marines Commando Sub Unit Joint Helicopter Command—2 x Chinook helicopter, 3 x Sea King helicopter, 3 x Lynx Helicopter Atlantis No involvement Joint Warrior 10-2 Navy 1 x Carrier Vertical Strike Ship, 1 x Type 42 Destroyer, 2 x Type 23 Frigate, 3 x Mine Counter 1c.6,200 Measures Vessel (S), 3 x Mine Counter Measures Vessel (H), 1 x Auxiliary Oil Replenishment (Helicopter) ship, 1 x Primary Casualty Reception Ship, 1 x Landing Ship Dock, 1 x Survey Ship, 1 x Patrol Boat, 2 x Ship Submersible Nuclear submarine, 1 x Merlin helicopter, 10 x Lynx helicopter, 1 x Sea King helicopter, 29 Commando Regiment Royal Artillery , Fleet Protection Group Royal Marines, 6 Assault Squadron Royal Marines Army 15 Psychological Operations Group, 17 Port and Maritime Regiment, 23 Pioneer Regt, 29 1— Regiment Royal Logistic Corps, 32 Battery Royal Artillery, 16 Regiment Royal Artillery, Joint Air Picture Provision to the Land Environment, UK Air Support Operations Centre, Spearhead Lead Element Company Joint Helicopter Command—2 x Puma helicopter, 2 x Merlin helicopter, 2 x Sea King helicopter RAF 9 x Tornado strike aircraft, 4 x Hawk trainer aircraft, 1 x E-3D surveillance and airborne 1— command and control aircraft, 1 x Sentinel reconnaissance aircraft, 2 x Puma helicopter, 2 (Motor Transport) Squadron, 85 Expeditionary Logistics Wing RAF Joint Warrior 10-1 Navy 1 x Carrier Vertical Strike2xType42Destroyer,4xType23Frigate,1xMineCounter 1c.6,180 Measures Vessel (S), 2 x Mine Counter Measures Vessel (H), 1 x Auxiliary Oil Replenishment Ship (Helicopter), 1 x Primary Casualty Reception Ship, 1 x Ship Submersible Nuclear submarine, 8 x Harrier jet, 5 x Merlin helicopter, 3 x Lynx helicopter, 2 x Sea King Airborne Surveillance and Control helicopter, 29 Commando Regiment Royal Artillery Army 2 Motor Transport Squadron, 148 Battery Royal Artillery, 16 Air Assault Brigade 1— RAF 8 x Tornado strike aircraft, 4 x Typhoon fast jet, 4 x Hawk trainer aircraft, 1 x E-3D 1— surveillance and airborne command and control aircraft, 1 x Sentinel reconnaissance aircraft Tiger Meet No participation Oceanis No involvement 1 Indicates brace 147W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 148W

2009 Exercise Assets Total number of personnel

Cold Response No participation Atlantis No involvement Joint Warrior 09-2 Navy 1 x Carrier Vertical Strike, 2 x Type 23 Frigate3xMineCounter Measures vessels (S), 2 x 1c.6,300 Ship Submersible Nuclear submarine, 3 x Merlin helicopter, 1 x Lynx helicopter, 2 x Sea King Airborne Surveillance and Control helicopter, 29 Commando Regiment Royal Artillery Army 1 Regiment Army Air Corps, Joint Air Picture Provision to the Land Environment, 16 Air 1— Assault Brigade, 16 Regiment Royal Artillery, 148 Battery Royal Artillery RAF 2 x Nimrod Intelligence Surveillance Targeting Acquisition Reconnaissance aircraft, 12 x 1— Tornado strike aircraft, 4 x Typhoon fast jet, 8 x Harrier Jet aircraft, 2 x Hawk trainer aircraft, 1 x E-3D surveillance and airborne command and control aircraft, 1 x Sentinel reconnaissance aircraft Joint Warrior 09-1 No records held c.6,400 Tiger Meet 1 x Merlin helicopter c.15 Oceanis No involvement 1 Indicates brace 2008 Exercise Assets Total number of personnel

Cold Response Navy 1 x Landing Platform Dock ship, 1 x Landing Platform ship Helicopter, 1 x Landing Ship c.2,000 Dock, 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines Joint Helicopter Command—info not held Atlantis No involvement Joint Warrior 08-2 No records held c.5,800 Joint Warrior 08-1 No records held c.5,400 Tiger Meet Navy 1 x Merlin helicopter 1c.15 RAF 230 Squadron no records held 1— Oceanis No involvement 1 Indicates brace

2007 Financial year Cost rounded to the nearest £1,000 Total number of 2009-10 972,000 Exercise Assets personnel 2010-11 918,000 Cold Navy No records held 2011-121 810,000 Response 1 For the period 1 April 2011 to 21 February 2012. RAF No records held Atlantis No involvement There are currently no children attending private day school in the UK or at Eton College. Joint No records held c.5,800 Warrior 07-2 In regard to financial years 2012-13, the MOD expects Joint No records held c.6,000 that the total cost spent on boarding school fees will Warrior 07-1 decrease slightly from the previous financial year. From Tiger Meet 1 x Merlin helicopter c.15 1 September 2010 where SCE schools exist in an overseas Oceanis No involvement area, civilian staff are expected to use them. There is no provision for sending the child to a boarding school/day school at departmental expense through choice or because Private Education of particular courses of study not covered by SCE overseas. In addition with the Department decreasing the number of civilian appointments overseas, it is Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for expected that the requirement for use of boarding or Defence how much his Department paid to send the day school allowances in the UK will continue to decrease. children of civil servants to (a) private boarding schools, (b) private day schools and (c) Eton College RAF Lossiemouth in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; how much he expects to allocate for such purposes in 2012-13; and if he will Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State make a statement. [96626] for Defence what plans he has for the future use of the Tornado Simulator at RAF Lossiemouth. [98777]

Mr Robathan: The civilian boarding school allowance Nick Harvey: Following decisions on the reduction of is only paid to Ministry of Defence (MOD) civil servants the Tornado fleet the future requirement for training appointed overseas. It ceases on return to the UK. simulators is under review. No decisions have yet been MOD assistance with school fees is restricted to 90% of taken on the future of the simulator at RAF Lossiemouth. the actual boarding or day fees subject to a maximum ceiling. From 1 September 2010, where service children’s Serco education (SCE) schools exist in an overseas area, employees John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for have been expected to use them. Defence what consultation process his Department Total costs for financial year (FY) 2009-10, 2010-11 undertook in relation to the announcement that Serco and 2011-12 paid to send the children of civil servants would become the new partner in his Department’s to private boarding schools in the UK were: Defence Business Services. [99897] 149W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 150W

Mr Robathan: Formal trade union consultation was Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for undertaken in relation to the creation of Defence Business Defence for what reason he approved the contract with Services (DBS) and the proposal to consider bringing in Serco for activities previously delivered by Defence commercial management to provide strategic management Business Services. [99923] of DBS. The trade unions have been regularly engaged throughout the project including during the procurement Mr Robathan: Defence Business Services (DBS) will process. continue to deliver the services they are delivering today, under the leadership of Serco who will provide a John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for management team to work with existing DBS staff to Defence what the terms and conditions are of the transform the organisation, building on private sector standstill period in relation to the recent bid from Serco best practice. for his Department’s Defence Business Services. [99898] Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan: The standstill period is a legal requirement Defence if he will meet trade unions representing staff that installs a waiting period of 10 calendar days between transferred to Serco from Defence Business Services. communicating the award decision to all tenderers and [99924] contract conclusion. Mr Robathan: Defence Business Services staff will Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for remain Ministry of Defence employees. Trade union Defence what level of business risk has been taken by engagement will continue via the normal channels. SERCO; and what has been retained by his Department in respect of the Defence Business Veterans: Suicide Services contract. [99920]

Mr Robathan: Business risk in relation to this contract Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for can be categorised as financial risk and operational Defence pursuant to the answer of 20 June 2011 to the risk. When the contract is signed, financial risk will be hon. Member for Midlothian, Official Report, column transferred to Serco, as the incentivised payments under 40W, on ex-servicemen: suicide, if he will publish the contract will not be made unless efficiencies are interim findings of the research on the causes of death delivered. Operational risk remains with the Ministry of of all serving members of the armed forces since 2003; Defence (MOD) to the extent that the MOD will carry and when he expects the final findings of the study to the consequences if corporate services are not delivered be published. [98993] to a satisfactory standard. However, an element of this risk will be transferred to Serco as failure to perform Mr Robathan: In 2003, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) against key performance indicators will be subject to a commissioned research into the health of military personnel financial penalty. deployed to Iraq. In 2006, the study was extended for three years and broadened to include all subsequent Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Iraq deployments as well as deployments to Afghanistan. Defence what assessment he has made of the level of This research programme now follows a cohort of over public accountability of Serco in respect of its contract 20,000 serving and former members of the armed forces. for Defence Business Services. [99921] The study was extended for a further three years to maintain the database and further explore the data Mr Robathan: The chief executive of Defence Business obtained in Phases 1 and 2. Key early findings are that: Services, who will be part of the Serco management The overall mental health of the Armed Forces is good and team, will be given financial delegations by the Ministry prevalence of disorders among Service personnel is generally in of Defence (MOD)’s Second Permanent Secretary, and line with the rest of the population. will be accountable to him. In discharging their financial Some 13% of respondents displayed evidence of alcohol and other management responsibilities, the Serco misuse, compared to a similar figure in the general management team will be required to comply with all population. Increased use is associated with operational relevant legislation and with all relevant Government deployment. and MOD policy, including Managing Public Money. Some 4% of respondents displayed symptoms of The MOD’s Permanent Secretary retains ultimate public post-traumatic stress disorder (compared with 3-7% in accountability. the general population). Common mental health disorders, such as anxiety Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for and depression, are more prevalent, with 19.7% of Defence what assessment he has made of the ability of service personnel studied experiencing them. Serco to deliver services better than civil servants at Defence Business Services. [99922] Deployment on operations was associated with a small increase in symptoms of post-traumatic stress Mr Robathan: The intent to award a contract to Serco disorder in reservists (5%). This should be viewed against was taken on the grounds of an assessment of a number the very low prevalence of symptoms for reservists of factors, including confidence in delivery. A thorough (1.8%) who did not deploy on operations. evaluation of the bid was undertaken by the Ministry of It is the MOD’s intention to publish the results of Defence’s subject matter experts. Serco will provide a this study in 2013. However, this is dependent upon the management team to work with existing Defence Business time required to process and analyse the data by Defence Services staff to transform the organisation, building Analytical Services and Advice and the National Health on private sector best practice. Service Information Centre. 151W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 152W

WALES Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 12 March 2012]: Remploy Regulations EC 15/2011, EC 2074/2005, EC853/2004 and EC854/2004 set out the relevant EU requirements. Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales The Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 allows (1) what recent discussions she has had with (a) the the use of the mouse bioassay (MBA) to detect and Welsh Government, (b) trade unions and (c) disability quantify marine biotoxins in shellfish. groups on the future of Remploy factories in Wales; During 2011 significant progress was made in the use and if she will make a statement; [99476] of non-animal methods and currently the majority of (2) what recent discussions she has had with the testing of shellfish for both paralytic shellfish (PSP) Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the recent toxins and lipophilic toxins, (otherwise known as DSP) announcement of proposed closures of Remploy is now carried out using non-animal methods. Alternative factories in Wales; and if she will make a statement. methods have now been validated and accepted by the [99478] competent authority for food hygiene, the Foods Standards Agency, for the species of shellfish that are tested most Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) frequently, which includes mussels, oysters and clams. what discussions she has made to the Secretary of State The small amount of residual use of the mouse for Work and Pensions on Remploy closures in Wales; bioassay is due to the alternative methods not having [99911] been validated for some types of samples, for example (2) what representations she has made to the non-bivalve molluscs. Testing of non-bivalve species is Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the only permissible, as an alternative, when bivalve molluscs closure of Remploy factories in Wales. [99912] cannot be used as a marker species. Over time the level Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my of such testing should reduce further as information right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham from these tests form part of the process of validating (Mrs Gillan), and I have discussed the future of Remploy the non-animal method. factories in Wales with both Welsh Government Ministers To protect human health and to meet food safety and ministerial colleagues at the Department for Work regulations the licence also covers the contingency of and Pensions as the lead Department, particularly in having to use the mouse bioassay should the sole world light of the Sayce review recommendations last July. provider of certain essential substances required for the The Secretary of State requested details from officials non-animal chemical methods be unable to provide of the Department for Work and Pensions on the Welsh them and also for the investigation of unexplained proposals. intoxication incidents. The Remploy Board will consider proposals for the exit of parts of businesses or contracts from those Appeals: Mohamed Ami factories proposed for closure along with other proposals for avoiding compulsory redundancies. Subject to the Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for outcome of the consultation process, all disabled employees the Home Department on what date the determination in every location will receive a comprehensive personalised of the successful appeal of Mohamed Amir, FCO package of support to help them into alternative number 14866, appeal number OA/63095/200, which employment. was allowed on 11 November 2010, was notified to the British embassy in Abu Dhabi. [98761]

HOME DEPARTMENT Damian Green [holding answer 8 March 2012]: This Police National Computer application was lodged in Pakistan and subsequently refused in October 2009. There is no record of the UK Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the Border Agency (UKBA) being notified of an appeal Home Department whether responsibility for being lodged. The appeal determination was, however, the police national computer will transfer from the promulgated on 11 November 2010. National Policing Improvement Agency to the Due to administrative errors, the visa section in Abu National Crime Agency; and on what date any such Dhabi did not receive a copy of this determination until transfer will take place. [97662] 7 March 2012. UKBA apologises for any inconvenience Mrs May [holding answer 1 March 2012]: I announced caused to the applicant. This case is now being finalised to Parliament in a written ministerial statement on 15 as a matter of priority. December 2011, Official Report, columns 125-7WS, plans to phase-out the National Policing Improvement Asylum: Lewisham Agency (NPIA), which currently operates the PNC. The Home Office is reviewing all of the NPIA’s functions Dame Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State to identify successor bodies for the critical national for the Home Department what estimate she has made services it provides. of the number of (a) refugees and (b) asylum seekers Animal Experiments without recourse to public funds in Lewisham, Deptford constituency; and how many such refugees Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for and asylum seekers are children. [99075] the Home Department what her policy is on licensing mouse bioassays to detect shellfish toxins; for which Damian Green: There are no refugees or asylum type of toxin and species of shellfish such licences are seekers without recourse to public funds living in Lewisham issued; and if she will make a statement. [99440] or any other part of the United Kingdom. 153W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 154W

Refugees who are granted leave to remain in the are not met may make a claim to an employment United Kingdom can access mainstream welfare benefits. tribunal, provided they do so within three months of Asylum seekers who are destitute cannot access these leaving the employment. benefits, but are supported by the UK Border Agency until their asylum claims are decided. Unaccompanied Human Trafficking asylum seeking children are supported by local authorities under the Children Act 1989. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether she has made an Crimes of Violence: Pedicabs assessment of the effect of appointing an independent national rapporteur on human trafficking on levels of Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for the information about human trafficking available to (a) Home Department how many (a) sexual assaults and the Government, (b) the UK Border Agency and (c) (b) other assaults by drivers of pedicabs and rickshaws police forces. [99097] plying for hire were reported to the police in the last year for which figures are available. [99161] Damian Green: The Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group on Human Trafficking will be the UK Government’s Lynne Featherstone: The information requested is not national rapporteur mechanism. It will assess trends in available from the police recorded crime statistics held human trafficking using data provided by the UK Human by the Home Office. Trafficking Centre as the central intelligence hub. Extradition: Christopher Tappin Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department in which countries (a) within Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) outside the European Union the Government the Home Department if she will assess the funds projects to tackle human trafficking. [99391] implications of the extradition of Christopher Tappin for her Department’s policies; and if she will bring Damian Green: The Department for International forward legislative proposals to amend the law on Development (DFID) currently funds the Malawi Anti- extradition. [99162] Child Trafficking project, run by the Salvation Army. This project aims to improve knowledge of and access Damian Green: The UK-US extradition treaty was to rights for children in Malawi who have been trafficked one of the areas considered by the independent extradition or are vulnerable to being trafficked. review, which took the implications of many extradition DFID is also currently designing a new South Asia cases into account in the course of their deliberations. regional programme which will focus especially on reducing The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my trafficking of women and girls in India, Bangladesh right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and Nepal, focusing on the garment and domestic work is currently giving the review panel’s recommendations sectors. careful consideration and the Government will announce what action they will take in due course. The UK Human Trafficking Centre (UKHTC), part of the Serious Organised Crime Agency, is working Food with others on, and partly funding, a UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) led project focused on Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Nigeria as a source country. for the Home Department what proportion of food procured by her Department (a) meets the Members: Correspondence Government Buying Standards for Food and Catering and (b) is from British sources. [99800] Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she plans to answer the Damian Green: The Home Office does not directly letter from the right hon. Member for Manchester, contract for food supplies but procures catering services Gorton of 2 February 2012 with regard to Mrs Nita through wider facilities management or operating service Malata. [99747] contracts. Suppliers have been made aware of the Government Buying Standard (GBS) criteria and will Damian Green: I refer the right hon. Member to my report against GBS criteria on the Home Office website. letter of 21 February 2012. Foreign Workers: Domestic Service National Crime Agency: UK Border Agency

Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how migrant domestic workers who Home Department what the relationship will be have experienced unlawful working conditions will be between the UK Border Force and the National Crime able to pursue employment claims against their Agency. [98135] employers under the changes to the domestic worker visa. [99933] Damian Green: Both the Border Force and the Border Policing Command (which is part of the National Crime Damian Green: Employers will be required, in accordance Agency), will be critical to delivering increased security with the Employment Rights Act 1996, to give the at the border. They will act collaboratively to tackle domestic worker a written statement of their particulars threats at the border through improved tasking of employment in the UK. Employees, including overseas arrangements; better intelligence gathering and sharing, domestic workers, who consider that those particulars and mutual sharing of assets. 155W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 156W

Naturalisation Passports

Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for the John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department how many applications for UK the Home Department what recent assessment she has naturalisation have been received in each of the last made of the acting profession as an appropriate three years; and how many have been successful. reference on passport applications. [99813] [99883] Damian Green: The Identity and Passport Service issues information to customers on the completion of application Damian Green: British citizenship can be granted as forms. This includes the use of countersignatories and either naturalisation or registration, Figures for grants guidance on possible occupations that may be considered of naturalisation and registration are given in the following suitable to verify the person’s application. This is to table. assist applicants and is meant as a guide rather than British citizenship applications and grants by general category being an exhaustive list of occupations. The occupation Of which: of the countersignatory is not a determining factor in Total decisions Grants of Grants of considering whether a passport should be issued. Applications takentogrant naturalisation registration Police: Court Orders 2009 193,810 203,789 152,101 51,688 2010 199,767 195,046 140,709 54,337 2011 205,210 177,878 130,352 47,526 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Notes: the Home Department whether she plans to review the 1. Derived from tables cz.01 and cz.02 of ’Immigration Statistics October-December annual data requirement of police forces in respect of 2011’. production orders. [98821] 2. Decisions (″Grants of naturalisation and Grants of registration″) may not relate to applications made in the same year. Source: Nick Herbert: We have no plans to carry out such a Home Office Statistics, Migration Statistics review. Figures of applications for naturalisation are not The annual data requirement is considered carefully published separately; however, figures for total applications with a view to reducing the bureaucratic burden on for British citizenship are published regularly and are police forces and, as an operational matter which is also shown in the table. subject to judicial oversight, we do not see the need to collect this information. The available statistics of British citizenship grants reflect decisions made in each year and so may not Regulation relate to applications made in the same year. The latest Home Office immigration statistics on Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for the persons applying for British citizenship and being granted Home Department how many regulations her naturalisation and registration as British citizens are Department has repealed between 1 June 2011 and given in tables ‘cz.01’ and ‘cz.02’ of the statistical release 31 January 2012; and if she will estimate the likely ‘Immigration Statistics October-December 2011’. This savings to the public purse in each case. [97671] publication is available from the Library of the House and from the Home Office Science website at: Damian Green: The Home Office revoked two sets of regulations between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ They are the Immigration (Procedure for Marriage) immigration-q4-2011 Regulations 2005 (S.I. 2005/15), and the Immigration (Procedure for Formation of Civil Partnerships) Regulations 2005 (S.I. 2005/2917). Organised Crime: Colombia The revocation of these regulations did not result in any quantifiable savings to the public purse. Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for the Youssef Boutros-Ghali Home Department what steps her Department is taking to prevent members of Columbian crime gangs Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the from entering the UK. [96095] Home Department (1) whether (a) Ministers and (b) officials of her Department have had discussions with Damian Green: Police forces across the UK, but (i) the United States Department of State, (ii) the US primarily in London and the home counties, are Ambassador to the UK, (iii) other American officials, investigating a series of burglaries that have resulted in (iv) the Egyptian Foreign Ministry, (v) the Egyptian the arrests of over 60 foreign nationals. Ambassador of the Arab Republic of Egypt to the UK The ACPO Criminal Records Office (ACRO) has and (vi) other Egyptian officials concerning Youssef UK-wide responsibility for making requests for criminal Boutros-Ghali; [99025] conviction information from other countries across the (2) whether she has received representations from world. In this case, ACRO has made requests to (a) the United States Department of State, (b) the the Colombian law enforcement authorities to check Ambassador of the United States of America to the the identities of all those who have currently come to UK, (c) other American officials, (d) the Egyptian the notice of the police. We are also working closely Foreign Ministry, (e) the Egyptian Ambassador to the with the UK Border Agency in Colombia in relation to UK and (f) other Egyptian officials concerning these individuals. Youssef Boutros-Ghali. [99026] 157W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 158W

Damian Green [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The Charles Hendry: The CCS Roadmap will be published Government do not comment on discussions or in the coming weeks alongside the launch of a streamlined representations in relation to particular individuals. selection process for future CCS projects.

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Energy and Climate Change when his Department plans to launch the carbon capture and storage Aviation: Exhaust Emissions competition request for proposals. [99591]

Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Charles Hendry: The Government remain firmly and Climate Change what assessment he has made of committed to supporting the commercialisation of CCS the potential effects of the prohibition by the United and there are a number of promising projects proposed States and China of their airlines taking part in the in the UK. We will launch a streamlined selection EU’s emission trading scheme. [99723] process for future CCS projects and a CCS roadmap in the coming weeks. Gregory Barker: We are aware that a number of countries have raised their concerns and we are working Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for with the Commission and other member states to find a Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has resolution. In particular we are actively engaged in the made of (1) the number of commercially-viable carbon recent work programme initiated in the International capture and storage plants that will be in operation in Civil Aviation Organization which is seeking to reach a the UK by 2015; [99593] global agreement to tackle aviation emissions. (2) the level of installed capacity associated with Carbon Sequestration carbon capture and storage that will be available in the UK by 2015. [99594] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will reconsider the Charles Hendry: Our intention is to launch in the decision not to proceed with the carbon capture and coming weeks a new competition for CCS projects that storage project at Longannet; and if he will make a will assist in achieving our goal of making CCS costs statement. [99166] competitive with other forms of low-carbon generation by the 2020s. Charles Hendry: The Government announced on The Government have already committed £l billion 19 October 2011 that a decision had been made not to in funding under the competition. Until we have launched proceed with the proposed CCS project at Longannet the competition and evaluated bids it is not possible to because it was not possible to conclude a deal within the give a view on the timelines for potential projects. £1 billion the Government have committed. There are no plans to reconsider that decision. Carbon Sequestration: Scotland The Government remains firmly committed to supporting the commercialisation of CCS and there are a number of promising projects proposed in the UK. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for We will launch a streamlined selection process for future Energy and Climate Change what information his CCS projects and a CCS Roadmap in the coming Department holds on whether the Scottish weeks. Government has committed to funding any carbon capture and storage projects in Scotland. [99529] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many full-time Charles Hendry: The Scottish Government have not equivalent staff in his Department are responsible for contributed financially to the development of a commercial carbon capture and storage. [99527] scale CCS project in Scotland. However, the Scottish Government have contributed to the funding of several Charles Hendry: The current number of full time offshore storage research projects to help inform CCS equivalent staff responsible for carbon capture and deployment in the future. storage in the Department of Energy and Climate Change is 31.3. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (1) when he last met a Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Minister of the Scottish Government to discuss carbon Energy and Climate Change when he expects to capture and storage; [99530] publish his Department’s carbon capture and storage baseline risk allocation. [99528] (2) on how many occasions he has met Ministers of the Scottish Government to discuss carbon capture and Charles Hendry: A proposed risk allocation for the storage. [99531] CCS project selection programme will be published when the programme is launched in the coming weeks. Charles Hendry: Ministers meet their counterparts in the devolved Administrations regularly to discuss a Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for range of energy and climate change issues. In addition, Energy and Climate Change when he intends to my officials hold regular detailed discussions with their publish the Government’s carbon capture and storage counterparts on specific issues relating to the development roadmap. [99590] of carbon capture and storage. 159W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 160W

Climate Change Energy

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what proportion of households and Climate Change what assessment he has made of switched energy provider in each region of the UK in changes to global temperatures since 2000. [99734] each of the last five years. [99164] Gregory Barker: The global temperature record shows Charles Hendry: DECC publish data on the total that the last decade (2001-10) was the warmest decade number of customers switching from one supplier to in the global surface temperature record (which began another in the UK in its Quarterly Energy Prices reports. in 1850). 2005 and 2010 were the two equal warmest However, we do not hold data that shows customer individual years. The Earth has warmed by about 0.8°C switching in each region. since around 1900. Both the geographical patterns and In Q3 of 2011 (latest information available) the trend of recent warming can only be explained by number of electricity customers switching was 396,000 taking account of human greenhouse gas emissions. and the number of gas customers switching was 318,000. Recently some individual years have not been quite as Energy: Prices warm as 2005 and 2010. This is because the long-term warming trend is taking place on top of natural variations. Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Over periods of up to a decade, natural phenomena, and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the such as Pacific EI Nino and La Nina events, cause year number of firms leaving the UK citing high energy to year variations in the global average temperature that costs. [99725] can temporarily mask longer term trends. We will always see such short-term fluctuations and to confirm climate Gregory Barker: There is currently no evidence to changes we need to rely on long-term trends of longer suggest that high energy costs alone are causing businesses than a decade. to relocate outside the UK. Furthermore, published research including Climate Strategies1, the Oko Institute2 and Cambridge Econometrics3 suggests that Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy the risk of UK industries moving to third countries as a and Climate Change what recent discussions he has result of increased costs of carbon in the EU, is limited had on his Department’s policy on anthropogenic to a small number of sectors. climate change. [99735] Nevertheless, the Government are keen to ensure that climate and energy policies do not lead to competitive Gregory Barker: All ministerial meetings with external distortions and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my organisations, including those involving discussions on right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), the Department’s policy on anthropogenic climate change, therefore announced in the autumn statement last year, are published on a quarterly basis and can be found on that Government will implement a package of measures, the Department’s website by clicking the following link: to reduce the impact of energy and climate change http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/accesstoinform/ policies on the costs of electricity, for those energy registers/ministermtgs/ministermtgs.aspx intensive industries whose international competitiveness is most affected by these policies. This week the Government launched a “Call For Evidence”to inform the development Electric Vehicles and targeting of such measures, available online at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/business-sectors/low-carbon- Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for business-opportunities/energy-intensive-industries Energy and Climate Change what assessment his 1 Climate Strategies (UK) Reports (2007-2009) on: Tackling Leakage Department has made of the potential role of plug-in in a world of unequal carbon prices: vehicles to support the development of a UK smart http://www.climatestrategies.org/research/our-reports/ grid. [99491] category/32.html Hourcade et al (2007) Differentiation and Dynamics of EU ETS Industrial Competitiveness Impacts, Climate Strategies: Charles Hendry: DECC’s Carbon Plan assessed that http://www.climatestrategies.org/research/our-reports/ 20% to 50% of new cars and vans could be battery category/6/37.html electric, range extended electric or plug-in hybrid in the 2 Oko-Institut (Germany), Fraunhofer ISI, DIW (September UK by 2030. Since they can be charged at any time of 2008) Impacts of the EU Emissions Trading Scheme on the the day, plug-in vehicles could help introduce flexibility industrial competitiveness in Germany: to the electricity system, allowing electricity demand to http://www.umweltdaten.de/publikationen/fpdf-l/3625.pdf be shifted to better match electricity supply and to 3 DECC commissioned Cambridge Econometrics report 2010: make more efficient use of network infrastructure. http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/What%20we%20do/ DECC set up and co-chairs with Ofgem the Smart Global%20climate%20change%20and%20energy/ Grid Forum, a cross-industry group to help develop a Tackling%20Climate%20Change/Emissions%20Trading/ smarter grid. A key output of this will be an evaluation eu_ets/news/471-carbon-leakage-ce-report.pdf framework to assess the costs and benefits of smart grid Green Deal Scheme technologies, including the role played by technologies such as electric vehicles. The work is based on DECC Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Carbon Plan assumptions of the future take-up of Energy and Climate Change whether he has had electric vehicles and will inform the investment plans of discussions with the Secretary of State for Work and distribution network companies. The framework will be Pensions on opportunities for long-term unemployed published later this month. people to re-skill as part of the Green Deal. [99892] 161W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 162W

Gregory Barker: The Department has been in close skills to be recognised and given credit, requiring them contact with the Department for Work and Pensions to undertake fewer additional learning hours than those and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills starting out from scratch. to ensure we maximise the economic benefits from the Green Deal. Renewable Energy: Scotland The Department recently announced £3.5 million to fund the training of up to 1,000 assessors and 1,000 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for solid wall insulation installers under the Green Deal, Energy and Climate Change how much generation Officials are working closely with the relevant Sector capacity from renewable sources from Scotland was Skills Councils to ensure as much of this money as installed in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011; and what the total possible can be directed at helping those currently value was of the renewables obligation certificate unemployed. allocated to Scotland in each of those years, both as (i) an overall figure and (ii) a percentage of the total UK renewables obligation certificate allocation. [99536] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many formal Charles Hendry: 544MW of new operational renewable expressions of interest his Department has received electricity was installed in Scotland in 2010. Between from people interested in becoming Green Deal January and September 2011, 220MW of new operational assessors. [99893] renewable electricity had been installed. Data for the full calendar year will be available in Energy Trends Q4, Gregory Barker: The Department has not sought any which will be published on 29 March 2012. formal expressions of interest from people interested in becoming Green Deal assessors. Officials continue to The information requested on renewable obligation discuss with a range of stakeholders the opportunities certificates (ROCs) for total renewable electricity generation for Green Deal assessors and developments in this area. in Scotland is given in the following table. The obligation period runs from April to March so the figures are given for 2009-10 and 2010-11. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for

Energy and Climate Change if he will publish a copy of 2009-10 2010-11 the guidelines and training materials which will be issued to (a) Green Deal assessors and (b) go-early Estimate of value of ROCs allocated to 404,575,823 454,273,056 Green Deal assessors. [99894] Scotland (£) Numbers of ROCs issued x ROC value 7,726,811 x 8,848,326 x Gregory Barker: The regulations, code of practice £52.36 £51.34 Percentage of the total UK ROCs 36.4 35.6 and standards will set out the expectations on all assessors allocated to generators in Scotland operating under the Green Deal. These will be published in due course, following the analysis of consultation responses. Responsibility for the publication and issue of training ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS materials rests with learning providers. Agriculture: Exports

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Department has made of the cost to the public purse of Department is taking to maintain (a) standards of training a (a) Green Deal assessor and (b) go-early animal welfare and (b) the competitiveness of the Green Deal assessor. [99895] farming industry in the exports market. [96353]

Gregory Barker: The qualification and training Mr Paice: This Government are committed to improving framework for Green Deal assessors will be finalised the welfare of farmed animals. But this need not be to shortly. Training providers will then use this to determine the disadvantage of our farming industry in terms of the training requirement for Green Deal assessors. their competitiveness in relation to our trading partners. Although it is for the market to deliver training for We want to see consistent enforcement of welfare legislation Green Deal advisers, Government have demonstrated within the EU and the adoption of equivalent welfare their commitment to helping the market gear up. We standards in countries outside Europe. We will continue recently announced the provision of £3 million in funding to work towards these twin goals to ensure the continued to train Green Deal assessors and installers. £1 million competitiveness of our exports of livestock and livestock of this will be invested in training up to 1,000 assessors products. in readiness for the Green Deal. On 27 January 2012, DEFRA, UK Trade and Investment (UKTI), together with industry representatives announced Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for “Driving Export Growth in the Farming, Food and Energy and Climate Change what the average number Drink Sector: a plan of action”. The Government and of training hours (a) go-early Green Deal assessors industry will work to open markets and remove trade and (b) Green Deal trainees will receive. [99896] barriers; help build a business mindset of exporting as a key route to growth; encourage more SMEs to explore Gregory Barker: The qualification and training overseas opportunities and support those already doing framework for Green Deal assessors will be finalised so; and shift the focus of the sector towards the shortly, including a final set of expected learning hours. opportunities of emerging economies where there is the We expect people with relevant experience and existing greatest future growth potential. 163W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 164W

One of the actions DEFRA will undertake will be to for future mitigation action on the use of HFCs. This develop a strategy in collaboration with industry to includes examining the technical options under existing remove barriers to trade for British animal and animal international proposals to phase down HFCs under the products into key overseas markets. This will focus on Montreal protocol to assess whether they could be identifying the key markets and then negotiating the realistic and achievable at a UK level. appropriate import conditions and associated guarantee The UK Government have not to date made any documentation such as export health certificates to specific representations to European institutions about access those markets. the future regulation of HFCs. Dogs: Tagging The European Commission has recently reviewed the EU regulatory regime that controls emissions of HFCs. Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Based on the findings of the review and a recent EU Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment stakeholder consultation, the Commission is assessing her Department has made of the merits of introducing the environmental, economic and social impacts of compulsory microchipping for dogs. [96281] potential options for further EU action to regulate HFCs, both with and without global action under the Mr Paice: The Government will make an announcement Montreal protocol. shortly on a package of proposals to tackle irresponsible ownership of dogs. In putting this package together, we have considered the benefits of compulsory microchipping Livestock: Waste Disposal of dogs. David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Hydrofluorocarbons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for her Department has issued to regulate major Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent excavation or reprofiling works where infected BSE assessment she has made of the potential effects on the carcasses are buried and where the exact location of the UK chemical industry of (a) specific use bans, (b) carcasses (a) is and (b) is not known. [96099] production caps and (c) consumption caps to regulate further the use of hydrofluorocarbons; [98837] Mr Paice: Some 6,117 BSE cattle were disposed of in (2) what recent assessment she has made of the landfill sites in Great Britain up to 1991 before incineration potential use of (a) specific use bans, (b) production capacity was sufficient to deal with the number of cases. caps and (c) consumption caps as methods to further No BSE suspects have been disposed of to landfill regulate the use of hydrofluorocarbons; and if she will since 1991. make a statement; [98838] The disposal of waste to landfill was then generally (3) what her Department’s policy is on the extension subject to control under the waste disposal licensing of the Montreal Protocol and the phasing down of system under Part I of the Control of Pollution Act 1974. hydrofluorocarbons; [98839] The then waste regulation authorities, principally county councils, were responsible for the administration of the (4) what representations she has made to European system and were required to maintain a public register institutions on the future regulation of which showed the general types of waste each landfill hydrofluorocarbons; and if she will make a statement. site was authorised to take and any limitations on the [98840] quantity. In many cases the carcases of BSE suspects Mr Paice: The UK Government welcome action on were not specifically identified. No central record was hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) to combat rising emissions kept of the type and quantities of waste each landfill of these powerful greenhouse gases through both the site took. Montreal protocol and the United Nations framework The then Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory convention on climate change (UNFCCC). We support Committee considered the issue of BSE and the “in principle” an international phase-down of HFCs environment in May 1996, including the question of under the Montreal protocol as one of a number of disposal to landfill sites. They concluded that it was potential measures because of the climate benefits that unlikely that leachate from landfill sites would present will be delivered. However, there are many technical significant risk and there was no justification for taking issues to be discussed before any formal negotiations on measures to excavate sites, including those which had a phase-down could take place. previously been used for material such as BSE-confirmed The Montreal protocol is considered to be the appropriate cattle. forum in which to take action to counter the growth of The Environment Agencies became responsible for HFCs, due to the expertise of the Montreal parties in the safe regulation of landfill sites in April 1996 under phasing out the production of ozone-depleting substances, Part II of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and the ability to set targets for developing as well as developed undertook qualitative assessments of all the sites concerned, countries and the existence of a ready-made, and very taking account of the number of carcases estimated to effective, mechanism to support implementation of new be buried at each site based on various records, the obligations being taken on by developing countries. degree of containment and the proximity to water sources. The UK Government have not undertaken any recent They also carried out more detailed quantitative assessments assessment of the use or impact of specific use bans, of a selection of sites which were judged to be typical of production caps or consumption caps. However, work is those sites that appeared most vulnerable. The results under way to ensure we have the appropriate evidence showed the potential risks to be very low, in line with to give us a better understanding of important emerging previous advice given to the then Government by the trends, and what potential policy options there might be Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee. 165W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 166W

Meat: Exports Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for asked the authority to reply. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assistance Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2012: is given to exporters of (a) pig meat, (b) lamb and (c) beef to countries (i) within the EU and (ii) As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions. internationally; what recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Foreign Commonwealth Table 1 provides the number of deaths in England and Wales where the date of death was between 1 January 2005 and 31 December Affairs on promoting such exports; and if she will 2005 and the waiting time between the date of death and the date make a statement. [98921] of death registration was greater than (a) 91 days, (b) 183 days, (c) 365 days and (d) 730 days. Mr Paice: On 27 January 2012 the Government published ‘Driving Export Growth in the Farming, Food and There were a total of 515,076 deaths registered in England and Wales where the date of death was between 1 January 2005 and Drink Sector’, a joint industry-Government plan of 31 December 2005. action. DEFRA, UKTI and FCO together with industry Annual figures on the number of deaths registered by sex, age will work to open markets and remove trade barriers; group and cause in England and Wales are available from the help build a business mindset of exporting as a key Office for National Statistics at: route to growth; encourage more SMEs to explore http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- overseas opportunities and support those already doing releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-27475 so; and shift the focus of the sector towards the Table 1. Number of deaths where death registration was delayed more than (a) opportunities of emerging economies where there is the 91 days, (b) 183 days, (c) 365 days and (d) 730 days, England and Wales, greatest future growth potential. 20051, 2 One of the actions DEFRA will undertake will be to Waiting time Deaths develop a strategy in collaboration with industry to Over 91 days 16,434 remove barriers to trade for British animal and animal Over 183 days 8,266 products into key overseas markets. This will focus on Over 365 days 2,133 identifying the key markets and then negotiating the Over 730 days 459 appropriate import conditions and associated guarantee 1 Figures are for deaths occurring in 2005 and include deaths of non-residents documentation such as export health certificates to 2 The date of death is not available for 11 deaths. These have been excluded from access those markets. this table. Source: The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Office for National Statistics Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), and her ministerial team regularly Departmental Contracts meet with the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), and other FCO Stephen Timms: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Ministers in the course of Government business and Office (1) what the monetary value is of Government (a) exports are a regular topic of discussion. contracts awarded to Prospects Services Limited and (b) associates of Prospects Services Limited (i) Pet Animals Act 1951 individually and (ii) in total since May 2010; [99056] (2) what the monetary value is of Government Jane Ellison: To ask the Secretary of State for contracts awarded to (a) Rehab Jobfit and (b) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment associates of Rehab Jobfit (i) individually and (ii) in she has made of the operation of the Pet Animals total since May 2010; [99057] Act 1951. [96805] (3) what the monetary value is of Government Mr Paice: I am satisfied that the Pet Animals Act 1951 contracts awarded to (a) JHP Group Limited and (b) provides local authorities with the necessary powers to associates of JHP Group Limited (i) individually and investigate allegations of poor welfare in pet shops (ii) in total since May 2010. [99058] while at the same time is not over burdensome to small businesses. Mr Maude [holding answer 12 March 2012]: As part of my Department’s transparency programme, details of contracts above the value of £10,000 are published CABINET OFFICE on Contracts Finder http://www.contractsfinder.co.uk Deaths

Patrick Mercer: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Departmental Ethnic Minority Staff Office (1) how many deaths were registered in England and Wales where the date of death was between Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 1 January 2005 and 31 December 2005 and the waiting Office how many and what proportion of senior civil time between the date of death and the date of servants in his Department were from an ethnic registration of death was longer than (a) 91 days, (b) minority in March (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; 183 days, (c) 365 days and (d) 730 days; [99739] and if he will make a statement. [98879]

(2) how many deaths were registered in England and Mr Maude: Civil servants are not required to declare Wales where the date of death was between 1 January their ethnicity. Diversity statistics are, however, published 2005 and 31 December 2005. [99740] on the Cabinet Office website and on data.gov.uk. 167W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 168W

Food New Businesses: York

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Minister for the Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Cabinet Office (1) what proportion of food procured Office how many new business start-ups there were in by No. 10 Downing street (a) meets the Government the City of York in each of the last 10 years. [99752] Buying Standards for Food and Catering and (b) is from British sources; [99795] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the (2) what proportion of food procured by the Cabinet responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Office (a) meets the Government Buying Standards for asked the authority to reply. Food and Catering and (b) is from British sources. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2012: [99796] As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answers I how many new business start-ups there were in the City of York gave on 1 December 2011, Official Report, column in each of the last 10 years. [99752] 1047W and 21 February 2012, Official Report, column Annual statistics on the number of enterprise births are available 595W. from 2002 onwards in the ONS release on Business Demography at Government Departments: Cost Effectiveness www.statistics.gov.uk The following table contains the latest statistics available, which Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet give the number of enterprise births for the constituency City of Office what steps his Department is taking to ensure York from 2002-2009 and York Central 2010. that Government Departments manage their property Count of enterprise births for the constituency of City of York 2002-09 and York Central 2010 efficiently to deliver value for money. [99300] Constituency Year Count

Mr Maude: My Department’s spending controls on City of York 2002 345 government property are reducing the cost and size of City of York 2003 410 the civil estate. The controls encourage Departments to City of York 2004 420 work more closely together in planning their future City of York 2005 435 estate needs, promote co-location and provide focus on City of York 2006 345 government’s core buildings. City of York 2007 390 Through these steps, the Government have exited City of York 2008 415 over 800 holdings and already achieved a reduction in City of York 2009 310 the central civil estate’s annual running costs by around York Central1 2010 355 £210 million since May 2010. 1 York Central is the new constituency which replaced the City of York and became operative on 6 May 2010. Government Departments: Public Consultation

Mark Reckless: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet NORTHERN IRELAND Office how many Government consultations were active during the last purdah period; and how many Ministerial Travel were launched within 14 days of the start of the last purdah period. [99415] Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) how many overseas visits Mr Maude: This information is not held centrally. Ministers in his Department have undertaken in each year since 2010; and what the (a) destination and (b) Mark Reckless: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet purpose was of each such visit; [99828] Office what guidance is issued to departments on holding consultations during a purdah period. [99772] (2) what information his Department holds on the dates, matters discussed at and people met during visits Mr Maude: In line with practice of previous undertaken by Ministers in his Department to each of Administrations, the Cabinet Office issues guidance to the constituencies in Northern Ireland. [99890] civil servants on their activities during the pre-election period which is different depending on the type of Mr Paterson: Details of ministerial overseas travel elections taking place. Previous versions of election and meetings with external organisations and individuals guidance for both general and local elections are available are published on a quarterly basis. These can be found on the Cabinet Office website and in the Library, of the at: House. http://www.nio.gov.uk/index/nio-publication/stats-and- research-publications.htm Morning Star Regulation Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many copies of the Morning Star Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for newspaper are regularly purchased for (a) 10 Downing Northern Ireland how many regulations his street and (b) the Cabinet Office. [99014] Department has repealed between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012; and if he will estimate the likely savings Mr Maude: None. to the public purse in each case. [97668] 169W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 170W

Mr Paterson: My Department has responsibilities The following table shows the amount the Commission chiefly on constitutional, electoral and national security spent with each public affairs consultancy firm in the matters. Since devolution the Northern Ireland Office last 36 months. The table also details the purpose of the has had no need for new regulations and therefore it has spend. not made or repealed any during this period. Supplier Total (£) Purpose Security News Direct UK Ltd 15,294 Parliamentary monitoring Randall’s Parliamentary 19,888 Parliamentary monitoring Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Service Ltd Northern Ireland with reference to the St Andrew’s Grayling Communications 13,918 Parliamentary monitoring Agreement of 2006, what assessment he has made of Ltd the application of national security arrangements to Stratagem (NI) Ltd 14,895 Parliamentary monitoring Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement. Dods Parliamentary 28,856 Parliamentary monitoring and Communications various publications [99031] Woodnewton Associates 35,879 Stakeholder perception audit Mr Paterson: I am confident that the national security arrangements are operating in line with the principles set out in Annex E to the St Andrew’s Agreement. As I CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT informed the House on 19 December 2011, Official Report, column 145WS, and in my recent written ministerial Broadband statement on the Northern Ireland Security Situation on 27 February 2012, Official Report, column 16WS, Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for my noble Friend Lord Carlile’s recent report on the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will take operation of arrangements for handling national security steps to ensure there is effective competition in matters in Northern Ireland expressed satisfaction that procurements for superfast broadband supported by there are no difficulties of any significance in the inter- his Department. [99759] operability between the PSNI and the Security Service. Mr Vaizey: I refer the right hon. Member to the He concluded that their sound working partnership answer I gave to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon should be commended. Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) on 7 February 2012, Official Report, column 162W. Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what justice and security matters that Data Protection: Internet affect Northern Ireland remain under the control of the UK Government. [99032] Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what Mr Paterson: Responsibility for policing and criminal representations he has received on the potential justice was devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly regulation of the collection and use of user data by in April 2010. National security remains an excepted internet companies. [97819] matter under the Northern Ireland Act 1998. In addition a number of other specific matters are excepted or Mr Vaizey: The Government believe that users should reserved, including drug classification, the Serious Organised have control over their data and it is important that Crime Agency, explosives security, extradition, and there are proper consequences for those who abuse the immigration. personal data of others online. Existing regulations require companies to get consent from users to process their data. DCMS is working with Ministry of Justice (MOJ) to ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ensure that the proposed EU Data Protection Regulation is balanced, proportionate and delivers real benefits to Departmental Consultants users without imposing undue burdens on business. The MOJ call for evidence seeking views on the proposed Jake Berry: To ask the hon. Member for South West regulation closed on 6 March. The Secretary of State Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the has received no representations from internet companies Electoral Commission, how much the Electoral on the potential regulation but such issues are raised by Commission spent on public affairs consultancy firms business stakeholders in the course of regular meetings in the last 36 months; on which firms; and for what with officials. reason in each such case. [99338] Libraries Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission has spent a total of £128,730 on public affairs consultancy companies Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for in the last 36 months. The Commission uses public Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment affairs consultancy firms to undertake parliamentary his Department has made of the socio-economic monitoring and for subscriptions to trade publications. profile of the users of library services. [99295] The Commission also used a public affairs consultancy Mr Vaizey: This Department’s Taking Part survey firm to undertake a stakeholder perception audit in provides information on the socio-economic profile of 2009. people who have visited a public library in the last The Commission has not used public affairs consultancy 12 months. The latest statistical release is available at: firms for any other purpose during this time. http://www.dcms.gov.uk/publications/8734.aspx 171W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 172W

Data from 2005-06 and a breakdown by socio-economic £ variables can be found at: Wastage at cost price http://www.dcms.gov.uk/images/research/ Venue Food Drink Total TP_Y7_Q2_Figures_Libraries.xls Moncrieffs 3,950 — 3,950 Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Debate 13,059 — 13,059 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what support he Bellamy’s 4,871 — 4,871 has given local authorities to strategically plan the Portcullis Cafeteria 6,794 — 6,794 future of library services for local communities. [99296] 6th Floor Cafe 68 — 68 Jubilee Cafe 5,531 99 5,630 Mr Vaizey: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave him on 1 March 2012, Official Report, column Table-service 405W Members’ and Strangers’ 4,937 51 4,988 Dining Rooms Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Churchill Room — 66 66 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether his Terrace Pavilion 266 — 266 Department has made an assessment of the adequacy Adjournment 540 — 630 of book stock levels in public libraries. [99297] Total 56,442 309 56,751 Mr Vaizey: Public library statistics are published by No information is held on the amount of food and the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, drink recorded as wastage. and reports that book stocks on 31 March 2011 stood at over 78 million volumes, or 1.5 books per person. Food and drink wastage is inevitable in any cafeteria or restaurant business and food production planning is VisitEngland particularly difficult for the House of Commons catering service due to the daily uncertainty about the numbers Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, of people attending the House, and the hour until Olympics, Media and Sport how much VisitEngland which certain outlets must remain open. Despite these spent on public affairs consultancy firms in the last 36 constraints, food and drink waste is below the industry months; to which firms such expenditure was made; norms for similar types of food businesses. This is and for what reason in each such case. [99345] achieved by making relatively little use of pre-made, packaged foods that have a limited shelf-life. Instead, John Penrose: The Department does not collate this food is where possible prepared in-house from fresh information. Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive ingredients. Ingredients or prepared dishes left over at of VisitEngland to write directly to my hon. Friend the end of the day are either transferred to another with this information. outlet for sale or conserved for future consumption, as long as it is safe to do so.

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Trees House of Commons: Catering Mrs Main: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Robert Halfon: To ask the hon. Member for Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing Commons Commission, what assessment he has made the House of Commons Commission, what the House of the effect that the removal of the fig trees in of Commons Commission’s most recent estimate is of Portcullis House would have on the acoustics of the (a) the volume and (b) the monetary value of food building. [99015] and drink thrown away at each of the House’s restaurants and cafeterias in the last year for which John Thurso: The removal of the trees would result in figures are available. [99150] higher ambient noise levels.

John Thurso: The estimated value of food and drink Mrs Main: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, recorded as wastage in each of the restaurants and Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of cafeterias operated by the House of Commons catering Commons Commission, whether the House of service over the past 11 months (April 2011 to February Commons Commission has given consideration to the 2012) is set out in the following table. Monthly figures use of the space previously occupied by the fig trees in are not available for previous periods. Food wastage is Portcullis House in the event that the trees are recorded at selling price, but the cost price (based on the removed. [99016] budgeted food cost percentage) has been estimated in order to answer this question. John Thurso: No. The Commission agreed on 27 February that the contract for the hire and upkeep of £ trees should be renegotiated at the earliest opportunity Wastage at cost price with the aim of reducing the cost significantly. Venue Food Drink Total Removal of the trees would lead to a noticeable Self-service increase in noise levels and reduced levels of shade (especially in summer, where the glass roof would probably Terrace Cafeteria 15,326 — 15,326 lead to a requirement for additional cooling). The trees Members’ Tea Room 1,100 3 1,103 also improve air quality. 173W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 174W

TREASURY SCS leavers Asset SCS leavers HM Protection Agency Child Tax Credit Treasury (APA)

June 2011 1 0 Ann Coffey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer July 2011 1 0 how many families with (a) one child, (b) two August 2011 1 0 children, (c) three children and (d) four children will September 2011 4 0 lose their entitlement to the family entitlement of child October 2011 0 1 [99604] tax credit in each constituency from April 2012. December 2011 2 0 Grand total 34 3 Mr Gauke: This information is not available.

The measure referred to in the question is the abolition SCS turnover table: May 2010 to January 2012 of the second threshold for child tax credit and is part Turnover as % Turnover as % all of a range of reforms to the tax credits system announced of SCS only current staff over at the spending review. All of the tax credits measures Departments SCS Leavers over 21 months 21 months interact with each other and isolating the impact of any HM Treasury 34 30.0 2.6 of these measures would not be representative of the APA 3 49.8 7.0 overall change in a family’s tax credit award. DMO 0 0.0 0.0 The Government published estimates of the distributional OBR from 1 0 0.0 0.0 impact of the packages of announced tax and benefit April 2011 measures which can be found at: Note: To calculate turnover we have used the average staff number over the 21 http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/junebudget_annexa.pdf month period (May 2010 to January 2012). http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/sr2010_annexb.pdf HM Treasury SCS turnover table: May 2008 to January 2010 (for comparison Departmental Consultants against May 2010 to January 2012) Turnover as % Turnover as % all of SCS only current staff over Jake Berry: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Departments SCS Leavers over 21 months 21 months how much the Financial Services Authority has spent HM Treasury 37 32.5 2.9 on public affairs consultancy firms in the last Note: 36 months; on which firms; and for what reason in each To calculate turnover we have used the average staff number over the 21 month case. [99041] period (May 2008 to January 2010). No names have been included as these personal data Mr Hoban: This is a matter for the Financial Services are protected by the Data Protection Act. Authority (FSA), whose day-to-day operations are independent from government control and influence. Income Tax This question has been passed on to the FSA, which will reply to you directly by letter. A copy of the Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer response will be placed in the Library of the House. what his most recent estimate is of the number of (a) underpayments and (b) overpayments of income tax in Departmental Senior Civil Servants each year from 2003-04 to 2009-10 which are (i) outstanding and (ii) written off; and if he will make a Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer statement. [42851] how many senior civil servants left his Department and its public bodies in each month since May 2010; what Mr Gauke: The information is not available. their names are; what the rate of turnover of senior Under and overpayments of income tax are normally civil servants in his Department was during this period; processed by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) as and if he will make a statement. [96242] soon as liability has been established. Miss Chloe Smith: The following tables show the Most PAYE overpayments are identified on the number of senior civil servants who have left since May reconciliation of a tax year and payable orders are 2010 to January 2012: issued shortly after the overpayment has been calculated. HMRC notifies customers when a PAYE underpayment SCS leavers Asset is identified on the reconciliation of a tax year. Actions SCS leavers HM Protection Agency are then taken to collect that underpayment. The majority Treasury (APA) are collected through a customer’s tax code for a later June 2010 3 0 tax year, customers may also make a voluntary payment. July 2010 2 0 Most underpayments are recovered through routine August 2010 3 0 processes and do not become established and enforceable September 2010 2 0 debts. However, where they do, HMRC collects almost October 2010 1 1 all established tax debt and write offs are relatively low. December 2010 2 0 I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to HMRC’s January 2011 2 1 published accounts which are available at: February 2011 2 0 www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/annual-report-accounts-1011.pdf March 2011 3 0 HMRC has done significant work to improve the April 2011 3 0 operation of dealing with under and overpayments in May 2011 2 0 PAYE through the introduction of the new national 175W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 176W insurance and PAYE system (NPS). For further Warrington North information, I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to Number (thousand) the answer I gave the hon. Member for Dundee East In-work CTC only 3.3 (Stewart Hosie) on 8 November 2011, Official Report, WTC Only 1.2 column 184W. All 9.7 Taxation: Loans This information is compiled using the December 2011 National Statistics dataset. The HMRC snapshot Steve Brine: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer publication “Personal Tax Credits: Provisional Statistics— (1) what information his Department holds on the Geographical Statistics” contains data on the number of employers that provide tax-free number of families in receipt of tax credits and the employment-related loans to employees; [99123] December 2011 publication can be found here: (2) what assessment he has made of the level of http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- uptake of employment-related loans by employees in dec2011.pdf the latest period for which figures are available; [99124] Table 4 has this information by Westminster (3) whether he has assessed the merits of raising the parliamentary constituency. £5,000 tax-free threshold of employment-related loans provided to employees under section 180(1) of the Working Tax Credit: Warrington Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003. [99125]

Mr Gauke: Employers are required to report annually Helen Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to HMRC, details of taxable benefits and expenses how many people in Warrington North constituency payments provided to employees. Included in this report who are in receipt of working tax credits are part of a are details of taxable zero or low interest ‘beneficial’ couple working for less than 24 hours per week. [99442] loans. Mr Gauke [holding answer 12 March 2012]: I refer There are certain exceptions which apply to prevent the hon. Member to my answer to the parliamentary an employment-related loan becoming a taxable and question answered on 10 January 2012, Official Report, therefore reportable, beneficial loan. These include the column 72W. situation where the combined outstanding value of all outstanding loans to an employee from the employment That answer gave the number of couples with children does not exceed £5,000 at any time in the tax year. and children benefiting from working tax credit and Because of this, HMRC does not hold data on the working between 16 and 24 hours as of December 2011. number of employers who provide or the number of We have reproduced this in the following table, with the employees who receive ‘tax free’ loans below this £5,000 addition of the number of people who are part of a threshold. couple working for less than 24 hours per week. HMRC publishes data annually on taxable benefits Warrington North and expenses. The June 2011 data for 2008-09 indicates Number around 130,000 individuals were in receipt of a taxable Number of households 275 beneficial loan. This data is publicly available on the Number of people 550 HMRC website in Table 4.5 (T4.5—taxable benefit in Number of children in those 495 kind and expenses payments). The £5,000 threshold is households intended to minimise the administration burden on employers of having to calculate the taxable value of the benefit of small loans made to employees. It can cover various types of loan, such as modest advances of WORK AND PENSIONS salary or expenses as well as loans for the purchase of travel season tickets. Increasing the threshold would be Access to Work Programme: Interpreters likely to have a material Exchequer cost at a time when the Government have a clear commitment to reducing the budget deficit. The Government have no plans to Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for raise the threshold. Work and Pensions what his policy is on the payment of the travel expenses of interpreters under the access Welfare Tax Credits: Warrington to work scheme. [98708]

Helen Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Maria Miller: Travel expenses for access to work how many families in Warrington North constituency support workers, including interpreters, will be paid by are in receipt of (a) working tax credit and (b) child the access to work scheme if they were included in the tax credit. [99443] quoted hourly rate that was agreed by officials.

Mr Gauke [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The Carer’s Allowance number of families in Warrington North in receipt of working tax credit and child tax credit are as follows: Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Warrington North and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number Number (thousand) of people who have claimed carer’s allowance in (a) England, (b) Cumbria and (c) Westmorland and Out-of-work 1.9 Lonsdale constituency in each of the last five years. WTC and CTC 3.3 [99429] 177W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 178W

Maria Miller: The information requested is given as Dilnot Report follows. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Recipients of carer’s allowance in England, Cumbria and Westmorland and Lonsdale parliamentary constituency: as at the dates shown and Pensions what steps his Department is taking to Westmorland and assess the implications of the Dilnot Report; and if he England Cumbria Lonsdale will make a statement. [99234] May 2011 482,670 4,430 430 Paul Burstow: I have been asked to reply on behalf of May 2010 454,110 4,290 420 the Department of Health. May 2009 428,350 4,160 420 Following the publication of the report of the May 2008 404,320 4,120 440 Commission on Funding of Care and Support, the May 2007 389,370 4,060 430 Government announced they would consult with a Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. range of people and organisations involved in care and 2. Figures show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and excludes support on their recommendations and social care people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if reform more broadly. “Caring for our future: Shared they are in hospital. 3. Constituencies used for May 2010 and 2011 are for the Westminster Parliament ambitions for care and support engagement” ran between of May 2010. Prior to this, the constituencies used are for May 2005. 15 September and 2 December 2011. 4. These figures are published on NOMIS at: www.nomisweb.co.uk. Source: The Government will publish their plans for social DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate Work and Pensions care reform in a care and support White Paper and Longitudinal Study 100 per cent data. progress report on funding in the spring. Employment Schemes Children: Day Care Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether a guide price or fee per Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for placement was suggested during the tendering process Work and Pensions what the budget was for (a) for the mandatory work activity scheme; and if he will childcare support and (b) other childcare-related make a statement. [99925] payments under the New Deal for Lone Parents in each of the last three years. [99455] Chris Grayling: The mandatory work activity (MWA) Invitation to Tender specification and supporting information set out the contract value per contract Maria Miller: The total amount spent on all child package area (CPA) and the minimum number of places care-related payments for the last three years of operation that providers would be expected to provide per year in of the New Deal for Lone Parents (NDLP) programme each CPA. As set out in the specification, this was based is shown in the following table. It is not possible to on a maximum cost of £800 per customer start. separately identify costs for child care support from other child care-related payments. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what data his Department holds on NDLP child care related payments (£ the mandatory work activity scheme. [99926] Financial year million) Chris Grayling: All published data concerning the 2010-11 5.7 mandatory work activity (MWA) scheme can be found 2009-10 6.4 on the Department’s statistics web page at the following 2008-09 5.3 link: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/pwp/mwa_feb12.pdf Departmental Ethnic Minority Staff Employment: Disability Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps his Department is taking to and Pensions how many and what proportion of senior reduce barriers to employment for disabled people civil servants in his Department were from an ethnic including (a) transport, (b) the physical environment minority in March (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; and (c) attitudes of employers. [98825] and if he will make a statement. [98862] Maria Miller: The Government spent over £105 million in 2010-11 on supporting disabled people in mainstream Chris Grayling: The answer is in the table: employment through its successful and popular Access DWP SCS by ethnicity to Work Programme. This programme helped in excess Number of SCS declared as Ethnic minority percentage of of 35,000 people in 2010-11. It includes help with ethnic minority total SCS declaring ethnicity transport—for example by funding the additional costs 31 March 10-4 1.9 of work related travel that some disabled people face, 2010 such as taxi fares or the cost of a travel buddy to help an 31 March 52.5individual learn how to use public transport. Access to 2011 Work also helps to reduce barriers within the physical 31 January 63.7environment by working with employers to negotiate 2 2012 and fund reasonable changes to the work environment. 1 It is civil service policy that where there are fewer than 5 people from any ethnic group identified in summaries, exact numbers will not be published. On 7 March 2012 the Government published their Instead, the summaries indicate that there are ’0-4’. response to the consultation on the recommendations 2 31 January 2012 is the latest published data. made in Liz Sayce’s independent review of specialist 179W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 180W disability employment provision, including an acceptance In accordance with data protection principles, the of all her recommendations with respect to Access to Independent Living Fund holds only the information Work and a commitment to work with disabled people necessary to administer awards to its users. This information on the further detail of this. We have also pledged an does not include details of the number of personal additional £15 million this spending review. assistants employed by users with monies provided by The Department works closely with employers through the fund. the employer-led Disability Employer Engagement Steering Group and Employers’ Forum on Disability. Both groups Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work work to improve employers’ knowledge and confidence and Pensions how many disabled people were in in dealing with disability issues and develop practical employment for each of the last five years for which tools for the recruitment and support of disabled workers. figures are available. [98830] The Department supports these organisations and their aims wherever it can. Maria Miller: The following table shows the number of working age people aged 16-64 in Great Britain, who Jobcentre Plus disability employment advisers also are disabled within the Equality Act definition, and in work with employers to help them explore job solutions employment in each of the last five years1: such as the restructuring of a job’s tasks/environment, or the provision/change of equipment. Number of disabled people in employment Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if his Department will conduct a review July 2006-June 2007 2,633,800 into the likely effects of the Government’s proposed July 2007-June 2008 2,714,400 welfare reforms on the employment of disabled people. July 2008-June 2009 2,686,400 [98826] July 2009-June 2010 2,874,300 July 2010-June 2011 3,132,500 Maria Miller: The Department has undertaken a 1 Figures on people who are considered disabled within the Equality Act definition, are the summed value of the rounded categories: “DDA Disabled series of equality impact assessments for the Welfare only” and “DDA disabled and work-limited disabled”, as published on the Reform Bill, which have assessed the likely effect of the NOMIS website. Government’s proposals on disabled people. These are Source: Annual Population Surveys (APS) 2006-11 (years ending June) available on the Department’s website. The Department will continue to fulfil its obligations under the public sector Equality Duty as we take forward our programme Flexible Working of reform. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number and Pensions how many disabled people were enabled of people from each socio-economic group with to enter and remain in paid employment as a result of flexible working hours in the latest period for which payments from the Independent Living Fund in the last figures are available. [98989] year for which figures are available. [98827] Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Maria Miller: In accordance with data protection Cabinet Office. principles, the Independent Living Fund only holds the The information requested falls within the responsibility information necessary to administer awards to its users. of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority This information does not include whether recipients of to reply. awards from the fund are in paid employment. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2012: Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking and Pensions how many people were employed as care what estimate has been made of the number of people from each and support workers either directly or indirectly socio-economic group with flexible working hours in the latest through agencies or as a result of payments through period for which figures are available. [98989] the Independent Living Fund in the latest period for The table provides the information requested for October to which figures are available. [98828] December 2011. The National Statistics Socio-Economic Classification is an occupationally based classification. Maria Miller: The Department for Work and Pensions The estimates are derived from the Labour Force Survey (LFS) does not hold information on the numbers of people and are not seasonally adjusted. As with any sample survey, employed as care and support workers. estimates from the LFS are subject to a margin of uncertainty.

People with flexible working hours by National Statistics Socio-economic Classification, October-December 2011. Not seasonally adjusted

Thousand and percentage

Level Rate1

Higher managerial and professional **528 15

Lower managerial and professional *842 13

Intermediate occupations **607 15

Small employers and own account workers **162 6 181W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 182W

People with flexible working hours by National Statistics Socio-economic Classification, October-December 2011. Not seasonally adjusted Thousand and percentage Level Rate1

Lower supervisory and technical ***67 6 Semi-routine occupations **164 5 Routine occupations ***88 3 1 Proportion working flexible hours within each socio-economic group. Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an indication of the quality of the estimates, as described below: Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise ** 5 = CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes CV = Coefficient of Variation Source: ONS Labour Force Survey (LFS)

Housing Benefit Maternity Pay

Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Work and Pensions what the value was of the highest the financial impact of the housing benefit cap on single payment of statutory maternity pay to date. homeless households in temporary accommodation. [99663] [99121] Maria Miller: The information requested is not collected. Steve Webb: Less than 2% of local housing allowance rates are affected by the caps. It is possible that a Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for number of tenants will need to find alternative Work and Pensions what the average total statutory accommodation, but there is no reason why anyone maternity pay was per claimant in the latest year for should be left without somewhere to live. which figures are available. [99664] Although the caps came in to effect in April 2011, existing claimants were given nine months transitional Maria Miller: It is estimated that the average female protection. It is too soon to know how landlords will who began a claim for statutory maternity pay in 2009-10 react to the caps. received the benefit for 33 weeks. The first six weeks of The Department has commissioned an independent her claim will have been paid at 90% of her average consortium of leading research organisations to evaluate weekly earnings. It is estimated that this payment would the effects of recent local housing allowance changes. have been around £370 per week. The final 27 weeks The evaluation team is led by Ian Cole of Sheffield will have been paid at the standard rate of £123.06 per Hallam university, includes Peter Kemp (Oxford university) week. Therefore, in total the average payment is estimated and members from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and to be approximately £5,500 in 2009-10. Ipsos Mori. Their wide remit includes providing information Source: on homelessness. Early findings are due to be published 1% sample of employer P14 returns for 2009-10. in May 2012. Additional information: Jobseeker’s Allowance Figures are consistent with the latest (autumn 2011) expenditure forecasts at: Rebecca Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/autumn_2011.xls Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the effect on the number of people claiming jobseeker’s Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for allowance of employment and support allowance Work and Pensions what number and proportion of claimants moving to jobseeker’s allowance. [97485] people in receipt of statutory maternity pay were earning in excess of £40,000 in the latest year for which Chris Grayling: It is not currently possible to provide figures are available. [99665] information on the number of people moving from employment support allowance to jobseeker’s allowance Maria Miller: The information requested is not collected. and to do so would incur disproportionate cost. However, the Department has recently published a Universal Credit survey on the ″Destinations of Jobseeker’s Allowance, Income Support and Employment and Support Allowance Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for leavers 2011″ that can be accessed from the following Work and Pensions if he will publish the Programme link. It shows that 41% of the ESA leavers included in Assurance Review of the universal credit programme the survey went on to claim another out of work that took place in November 2011. [99659] benefit, which would include those going on to claim jobseeker’s allowance: Chris Grayling: The report setting out the findings of http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/rports2011-2012/ the Major Project Authority’s Project Assurance Review rrep791.pdf is confidential to the senior responsible owner, and is 183W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 184W framed to ensure that he gets candid and direct advice. Table 1: Patients seen by an NHS dentist in England in the previous 24 months Publication of these reports might impact on the directness (including orthodontic patients) 24 month end date 31 December each and candour of the advice in future reports, and for this year Patients seen reason the report will not be published. 2007 27,263,754 Winter Fuel Payments 2008 27,272,083 2009 28,162,628 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 3 2010 28,917,934 Work and Pensions how many people in (a) 2011 29,452,413 Rutherglen and Hamilton West constituency and (b) South Lanarkshire received a winter fuel payment in (i) Table 2: Patients seen by an NHS dentist who holds a contract with Cumbria 2008, (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011. [99537] Teaching PCT in the previous 24 months (including orthodontic patients) 24 month end date 31 December each Steve Webb: The information requested is as follows. year Patients seen Number of people in receipt of winter fuel payment in the Rutherglen and Hamilton West constituency and South Lanarkshire local authority 2007 271,696 Rutherglen and Hamilton West South Lanarkshire 2008 270,218 2009 264,573 Winter 18,590 62,430 2010 259,214 2007-08 2011 268,559 Winter 18,980 63,820 2008-09 Winter 19,390 65,280 The number of patients seen by an NHS dentist in 2009-10 the previous 24 months, in England, is available in Winter 19,520 65,660 Annex 2 and Annex 4 of the “NHS Dental Statistics for 2010-11 England—2011-12, Second quarterly report” by PCT. Notes: Information at constituency level is not available. 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Parliamentary constituencies are assigned by matching postcodes against the Note that the patients seen measure shows the number relevant ONS postcode directory. 3. The latest figures for winter fuel payments are published at: of patients who received NHS dental care in the previous http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=wfp 24 months. An equivalent measure covering the 12 month Source: period is not available. DWP Information Directorate This report published on 16 February 2012 has been Work Capability Assessment placed in the Library, and is also available on the NHS Sandra Osborne: To ask the Secretary of State for Information Centre website at: Work and Pensions what percentage of appeals were www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats1112q2 successful by people contesting the withdrawal of employment and support allowance following a work Diabetes capability assessment in the latest period for which figures are available. [99047] Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Chris Grayling: The Department regularly publishes how many clinical commissioning groups have chosen official statistics on employment and support allowance to specialise in diabetes; and how many such groups his (ESA) and the work capability assessment (WCA). The Department estimates will choose to specialise in latest report was published in January 2012 and can be diabetes. [99007] found on the internet at the following link: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ Paul Burstow: Subject to the Health and Social Care index.php?page=esa_wca Bill, clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) will be Table 3 of the publication shows outcomes of appeals responsible for commissioning all appropriate services heard on Fit for Work decisions in initial functional to meet patients’ needs (except for those primary care assessment on a yearly, quarterly and monthly basis. and specialised services directly commissioned by the NHS Commissioning Board), including services for diabetes. CCGs will not specialise as such in particular HEALTH conditions, but will need to draw on the full range of appropriate expert advice in commissioning all services. Dental Services Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of patients with diabetes who were what estimate he has made of the number of patients offered foot-care checks did not take them up in the who have received dental treatment on the NHS in (a) latest period for which figures are available. [99398] England, (b) Cumbria and (c) Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency in each of the last five years. Paul Burstow: This information is not held centrally. [99952] The completion rates for foot-care checks as a proportion Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in of total patients in the National Diabetes Audit are the format requested. available on page 11 of the National Diabetes Audit The number of patients receiving NHS dental services Executive Summary 2009-10 at: (‘patients seen’) in England and Cumbria Teaching www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/Services/NCASP/Diabetes/ Primary Care Trust (PCT) over a 24 month period are 200910%20annual%20report%20documents/ displayed in the following tables. National_Diabetes_Audit_Executive_Summary_2009_2010.pdf 185W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 186W

The National Diabetes Audit 2009-10 showed that, in First Aid: Curriculum England, 82.33% of people with diabetes had a foot examination. This shows a significant improvement Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for compared to the 2004 -05 audit when 53.49% received a Health what discussions he has had with the Secretary foot examination. of State for Education on the potential public health The National Exception rates for Diabetic Foot indicators benefits that would result from introducing emergency DM09 and DM10 according to Quality Outcomes life support skills as part of the national curriculum; Framework data were between 5.8% and 5.9% respectively, and if he will make a statement. [99477] nationally. Anne Milton: We have not had any discussions about the potential health benefits that would result from the Diabetes: Leicester introduction of emergency life support skills as part of the national curriculum. Personal, Social and Health Education (PSHE), the subject through which emergency Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health life support skills is usually taught, is currently under what proportion of diabetes patients in Leicester City review. The Department for Education hope to be in a Primary Care Trust did not have a foot check in 2011. position to consult on the future of PSHE later this [99397] year. Paul Burstow: There are two sources of data for I have had a number of discussions about content of assessing the extent to which foot checks are provided: PHSE, both formally and informally, with the Department the National Diabetes Audit and the Quality and Outcomes for Education. Framework (QOF) achievement data. Food: Labelling The National Diabetes Audit shows that, from data received by 92.3% of practices, 18.3% of diabetics registered in Leicester City Primary Care Trust (PCT) did not Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for have a foot check. Health what assessment he has made of the effects of food labelling on the adoption of a healthy diet. The QOF indicators for diabetic foot care in 2009-10 [99321] were as follows: DM09: The percentage of patients with diabetes with a record Anne Milton: The Government keep international of the presence or absence of peripheral pulses in the previous evidence on the impact of nutritional labelling under 15 months; and review.Evidence from research demonstrates that consumers DM10: The percentage of patients with diabetes with a record value nutrition labelling and can use it to make healthier of neuropathy testing in the previous 15 months. food choices, but that regular use of it is limited. The According to Leicester City PCT’s QOF data for evidence also indicates that use of nutrition information 2009-10, for DM09 the average underlying achievement increases when it is put on front of pack in a consistent for practices in the PCT was 89.5% and for DM10 manner. The Department will shortly consult partners 89%. Underlying achievement means the percentage on ways of bringing more consistency to the provision of eligible patients (excluding those who were excepted of the front of pack labelling in the United Kingdom. from the indicator) who received the checks. This indicates that for DM09, 10.5% and for DM10, 10.6% Heart Diseases of patients (excluding those who were exception reported) did not receive the checks. The exception rate in Leicester City was reported as 5.5% for DM09 and 5.5% for Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for DM10. Health what steps he is taking to improve out-of- hospital cardiac arrest survival rates. [99291] The differences in results between the audit and QOF may be ascribable to variations in scope and data assessment Mr Simon Burns: It is for local national health service methodology. We are working with stakeholders to bodies to commission the provision of community understand the reasons for the differences and to identify resuscitation. what needs to be done as a result. The National Defibrillator Programme and the Heartstart scheme are two initiatives aimed at improving out-of-hospital cardiac arrest survival rates. Diseases The National Defibrillator Programme, which is the responsibility of ambulance trusts and is co-ordinated Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for by the British Heart Foundation (BHF), installs automatic Health when he plans to announce the launch of his external defibrillators where they are most needed. proposed public consultation into the UK Rare Through the Heartstart scheme, the St John Ambulance, Diseases Plan. [99010] the Red Cross and the BHF provide free emergency life support training in the community and schools. Most Mr Simon Burns: The consultation on the UK Plan ambulance trusts also provide training in cardio pulmonary for Rare Diseases was launched on 29 February 2012 resuscitation. Rare Disease Day. The consultation will run for 12 weeks and closes on 25 May 2012. Ambulance trusts now report on clinical outcomes of patients who suffer an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. It is available on the Department’s website at: The number of patients who have a return of spontaneous www.dh.gov.uk/health/2012/02/consultation-rare-diseases/ circulation at the point of arrival at hospital and the 187W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 188W number of patients who survive to discharge are recorded which includes the opportunity for companies to have and published on the Department’s website and on dialogue with the agency as to how they can most ambulance trust websites. effectively progress their intended applications under the traditional herbal registration scheme. Companies Herbal Medicine: EU Law had a seven-year transitional period ending on 30 April 2011 to adapt to the full implementation of the THMPD Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for and there is no provision for compensation in the Health (1) what (a) meetings and (b) correspondence implementing regulations. officials of (i) his Department and (ii) the Medicines Companies were not required to notify the MHRA and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency have had of unlicensed products marketed under section 12(2) of with (A) the Safer Herbal Medicines Campaign and the Medicines Act 1968, therefore no estimates are (B) Schwabe Pharma; and if he will place in the available of how many products will be withdrawn from Library reports of all such meetings and the United Kingdom market now that the THMPD is correspondence; [98078] fully in force. As now there will continue to be many (2) if he will pay compensation to small and herbal products that potentially can be placed on the medium-sized specialist manufacturers which cease to market either as medicinal products or under other trade as a result of the implementation of the product regulatory regimes depending on their presentation. The MHRA is presently investigating complaints about traditional herbal medicinal products directive; [98079] 21 companies selling some 148 herbal products which (3) what estimate he has made of the number of may fall within the definition of a medicine. The MHRA small and medium-sized specialist manufacturers of is currently considering how effective, proportionate herbal and botanical remedies who are likely to cease enforcement action can best ensure that the intended to trade as a result of the implementation of the benefits of the directive on traditional herbal medicinal traditional herbal medicinal products directive; [98080] products for consumers and for companies compliant (4) what assessment he has made of the effect of the with the legislation are achieved. enforcement of the traditional herbal medicinal products directive on small and medium-sized Hospices: Finance specialist manufacturers of herbal remedies. [98111]

Mr Simon Burns: Neither Ministers nor the Medicines Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) how much funding his Department allocated to have held a meeting with the Safer Herbal Medicines hospices in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will Campaign. The MHRA has held a number of meetings make a statement. [99610] with Schwabe Pharma and there has been correspondence with that company since the traditional herbal medicinal Paul Burstow: I refer the hon. Member to the written products directive (THMPD) was introduced, but the answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Great meetings and correspondence relate to the company’s Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), on 20 February 2012, Official specific products. Details of the meeting and correspondence Report, column 689W. are commercially confidential. The MHRA has periodic meetings with representative bodies, including trade Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health associations, from the herbal sector and such organisations which hospices received funding from his Department will sometimes be represented by individuals from specific in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a companies. Schwabe Pharma have submitted a number statement. [99611] of complaints to the MHRA about companies and products they believe to be in breach of medicines Paul Burstow: Hospices that received funding from legislation, but companies that are investigated by the the Department’s capital budget for hospices in 2010-11 MHRA are entitled to their privacy especially where, are listed at Annex C of the “End of Life Care Strategy following investigation, no subsequent enforcement action Third Annual Report”, which was published in September is taken against them. The MHRA considers that it 2011. A copy of the report has already been placed in would not be in the public interest to publish the the Library and is available on the Department’s website correspondence as this would reveal the names of companies at: who have not breached medicines legislation or who www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ have complied with regulatory requirements without documents/digitalasset/dh_130570.pdf the need for formal regulatory action; such an approach Children hospices received a one-off grant of £20 million could also have legal implications. for time-limited service projects during 2010-11. Details In its impact assessment on the THMPD, the MHRA of the hospices and projects can be found at: recognised that some businesses, including small and www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ medium-sized manufacturers, were likely to be significantly PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_124044 affected, and that the impact would vary widely depending The 40 children’s hospices in the following list also on the standards to which the businesses were currently received funding from the Department’s current annual operating. The assessment also suggested that some Children’s hospice and hospice-at-home grant in the restructuring in the herbal sector was likely. This view years 2010-11 and 2011-12. has not changed. The Better Regulation Executive review Acorns—Selly Oak of MHRA implementation of Hampton principles reported in 2009 that the agency had given extensive help to Acorns—Walsall industry in preparing to meet the requirements of the Acorns—Worcester directive. MHRA will continue to provide such support, Bluebell Wood Children’s Hospice 189W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 190W

Brian House Children’s Hospice In addition, there are also a number of National Butterwick House Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence quality standards CHASE (Children’s Hospice Association South East) that are either in place or are being developed for a Chestnut Tree House range of conditions and pathways affecting older people, including incontinence, nutrition support in adults, patient Children’s Hospice South West—Charlton Farm experience in adult NHS services, delirium, dementia, Children’s Hospice South West—Little Bridge House osteoarthritis and falls in a care setting. Claire House Children’s Hospice There is also renewed funding for National Audits Demelza Community—East Sussex relevant to older people’s care. Demelza House—Sittingbourne There are a number of indicators in the NHS Outcomes Derian House Children’s Hospice Framework to support better care for older people Donna Louise Children’s Hospice Trust around dementia care, hospital acquired infections, East Anglia’s Children’s Hospices—Ipswich emergency readmission rates, improving recovery from East Anglia’s Children’s Hospices—Milton fragility fractures and helping older people to recover East Anglia’s Children’s Hospices—Quidenham their independence after illness or injury. Eden House Children’s Hospice We have established the National Nursing and Care chYps/EllenorLions—Shining Lights Quality Forum to work with patients, carers and Francis House professionals to spread best practice to increase the quality of services to older people. Haven House Children’s Hospice Helen and Douglas House Mental Health Services: Hampshire Hope House Children’s Hospice Iain Rennie Grove House Hospice Care Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for James Hopkins Trust Health pursuant to the answer of 27 February 2012, Jessie May Trust Official Report, column 128W, on mental health Julia’s House services: Hampshire, if he will ask the Chairman of Keech Hospice Care Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust for what Little Havens reason the information on acute mental health beds has Martin House not been provided to the hon. Member for New Forest East; what assessment he has made of the degree of Naomi House Children’s Hospice (Wessex) complicity in compiling the number of such beds Rainbow’s Hospice for Children and Young People available within the trust’s directorate on any given Richard House Children’s Hospice day; and if he will make a statement. [99754] Shooting Star St Andrew’s Children’s Hospice Mr Simon Burns: We understand the Southern Health St Oswalds Children’s Services NHS Foundation Trust wrote to the hon. Member on 9 March 2012 addressing the points raised. A copy of the The Children’s Trust, Tadworth Trust’s letter has already been placed in the Library. Zoe’s Place Baby Hospice—Liverpool Zoe’s Place Baby Hospice—Middlesbrough Mental Health Services: Homelessness

Hospitals: Older People Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to improve David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for mental health outcomes for homeless people. [99339] Health what steps his Department is taking to ensure that all elderly people are treated with respect and Paul Burstow: People who are homeless have much dignity in hospitals; and if he will make a statement. higher rates of mental health problems than the general [99235] population and are less likely to be registered with a general practitioner and access health and other services. Paul Burstow: The Government are determined to The Government’s Mental Health Strategy “No Health root out poor quality care in the national health service. without Mental Health” describes how improving access We are taking action on a number of fronts, including to and take up of effective, integrated services can measures in the 2012-13 Operating framework, where promote a range of positive outcomes for homeless quality of care—particularly for older people—is established people with mental health problems. Later this year, we as one of the four key priorities for the service, giving it intend to publish an implementation framework for the equal billing with Operational Performance, the Quality, Mental Health Strategy. Innovation, Productivity and Prevention programme Within a broad strategy to tackle health inequalities and Reform. across the country, the Department is looking to address The Care Quality Commission will be building on the the needs of those who are most vulnerable to poor 100 Dignity and Nutrition inspections it undertook in health outcomes through the Inclusion Health programme. 2011 on behalf of the Department by undertaking a The early stage of this programme includes a focus on further 700 inspections this year. To improve on these the homeless. Inclusion Health seeks to drive improvements, inspections, the Prime Minister recently announced a mainly through system reform and clinical leadership, new patient-led inspection regime, looking at nutrition, to ensure everyone gets the care they need, regardless of privacy, cleanliness and dignity. their needs or circumstances. 191W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 192W

The Department is also a member of the Ministerial NHS: Reorganisation Working Group on Preventing and Tackling Homelessness (MWG). The MWG will release its second report this Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for summer on preventing homelessness, particularly focusing Health how many NHS authorities and trusts there on early intervention. were on 1 April 2011; and how many are proposed subject to the passage of legislation. [99074] Neurology: Health Services Mr Simon Burns: On 1 April 2011, there were 10 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health strategic health authorities, 152 primary care trusts, 120 what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the national health service trusts and 137 foundation trusts. National Service Framework for Neurology; and if he There were also 18 other national arm’s length bodies. will make a statement. [99609] Subject to the passage of the Health and Social Care Paul Burstow: We have made no assessment of the Bill, we have proposed that there will be a single NHS effectiveness of the National Framework for Long-term Commissioning Board. There will also be a number of neurological conditions. Responsibility for implementing clinical commissioning groups, though the final number the Framework lies with local health bodies. will depend on local circumstances, and the decisions Key developments aimed at improving services for made by the NHS Commissioning Board about the size those with long-term conditions, including neurological clinical commissioning groups are required to be to conditions, are the Quality, Innovation Productivity commission effectively. We are not pre-empting that and Prevention (QIPP) programme and the NHS Outcomes decision by announcing a pre-determined number of Framework. expected clinical commissioning groups. QIPP is a large scale transformational programme The Government are also committed to all NHS for the national health service, involving all NHS staff, trusts becoming foundation trusts. We expect the vast patients and the voluntary sector and will improve the majority of NHS trusts to become foundation trusts by quality of care the NHS. Local commissioners are 2014. currently configuring their work to drive the necessary The Department will also reduce the number of its changes and ensure that providers work together to other arm’s length bodies to 14. respond to the challenge. The NHS Outcomes Framework will provide the NHS: Standards framework for defining how the NHS will be accountable for outcomes. It encompasses five domains articulating Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the responsibilities of the NHS. how many people waited longer than 18 weeks for a Responsibility for ensuring that locally commissioned consultation in secondary services in (a) January 2010 neurological services meet the needs of patients lies and (b) January 2012. [97486] with primary care trusts. However, we recognise that there are still unacceptable local variations in the provision Mr Simon Burns: The Department’s Referral to of neurological services, as highlighted by the recent Treatment waiting times data for January 2012 are not National Audit Office report. We will be responding to published until 15 March 2012. the recommendations arising from the report, and 21,311 patients who started non-admitted treatment subsequent Public Accounts Committee hearing in due during December 2011 had waited more than 18 weeks course. from referral. 17,221 patients who started non-admitted treatment NHS: ICT during December 2009 had waited more than 18 weeks John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health from referral. (1) what effect payments made to Computer Sciences First and foremost, it should be clinical priority that Corporation for contracts under the Connecting for determines when a patient is treated, but no-one should Health Programme in the next three financial years will experience undue delay at any stage of their treatment. have on the declared savings made through the accelerated dismantling of the National Programme Ovarian Cancer for IT; [99036] (2) what the value is of payments to Computer Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Sciences Corporation through contracts under the Health what recent assessment he has made of the level Connecting for Health Programme in (a) 2011-12, (b) of (a) awareness and (b) detection of ovarian cancer 2012-13 and (c) 2013-14. [99037] symptoms. [99008] Mr Simon Burns: The Department could not comment Paul Burstow: We know from the national baseline on. the effects payments to Computer Sciences Corporation survey report, “Public awareness of cancer in Britain-Report (CSC) could have, over the next three financial years, on for the National Awareness and Early Diagnosis Initiative”, the declared savings made through the dismantling of published in 2009, that public awareness, of signs and. the National Programme for IT, as payments are made symptoms of cancer is low. We also know that certain once a product or service has been delivered. cancers, such as ovarian and pancreatic, present particular The CSC Contract Renegotiations are yet to complete, problems in terms of symptom awareness and detection. therefore the Department is not in the position to This is because the symptoms associated with these confirm monetary value for the contracts under National cancers, especially in the early stages of disease, are Health Service Connecting For Health in 2011-12, 2012-13 shared by other less serious conditions, such as irritable or 2013-14. bowel syndrome. 193W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 194W

To support earlier diagnosis of cancer we are providing Mr Simon Burns: The Department has made no more than £450 million over the spending review period. assessment of the cost to the national health service of This money is funding a range of activity, including prescription drug shortages. awareness campaigns and increasing general practitioner access to diagnostic tests such as non-obstetric ultrasound Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for to support the diagnosis of ovarian cancer. Health what discussions his Department has had with More recently, the International Cancer Benchmarking drug manufacturers and wholesalers to ensure that Partnership (ICBP) has conducted a survey of public there will be sufficient supply of prescription drugs awareness and beliefs within England and other countries during the London 2012 Olympic Games. [99040] in the partnership. The ICBP is an international collaboration seeking to understand how and why cancer Mr Simon Burns: Departmental officials have sought survival varies between countries and jurisdictions, focusing assurance from trade associations representing the supply on four tumour types, including ovarian. Included in chain that continuity of supply of prescription medicines the survey were questions on awareness and recognition will be maintained throughout the period of the 2012 of key cancer symptoms, many of which were relevant Olympic and Paralympic games. to ovarian cancer. The results will be published shortly. Regulation Patients: Transport Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health how many regulations his Department repealed if he will estimate how many patients in each primary between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012; and if he care trust area have received funding from the will estimate the likely savings to the public purse in Healthcare Travel Costs Scheme in each of the last five each case. [97672] years. [99953] Mr Simon Burns: The Department revoked 19 regulations Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not collect between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012. These are set information on the number of patients who have accessed out in a table that has been placed in the Library. funding through the Healthcare Travel Costs Scheme. Information on the likely savings to the public purse resulting from revoked regulations is not held centrally. Prescription Drugs This could be provided only at disproportionate cost to the Department. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Impact assessments in respect of the following revoked how many representations he has received from (a) regulations have been published: members of the public, (b) hon. Members, (c) pharmacists, (d) doctors, (e) nurses and (f) hospitals Health Service Branded Medicines (Control of Prices on prescription drug shortages in the latest period for and Supply of Information) which figures are available. [99038] Amendment Regulations 2011: www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/2955/contents/made Mr Simon Burns: In the six month period 1 September National Health Service (Charges to Overseas Visitors) 2011 to 29 February 2012, a number of written Regulations 2011: representations were identified as being received by the www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1556/memorandum/ Department in relation to medicines shortages. There contents were 23 written representations from the public, identified by the Department’s ministerial correspondence database. Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities) There were 65 written representations from hon. Members, (Amendment) Regulations 2011: identified by both the Department’s ministerial www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/2711/made correspondence and parliamentary questions databases. Tobacco Advertising and Promotion (Display) (England) There were 11 written representations from pharmacists, Regulations 2010: identified by the Department’s ministerial correspondence www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/445/memorandum/contents database. There were no written representations identified from either doctors or nurses, by the Department’s Social Services ministerial correspondence database. Finally, there were 49 written representations from hospitals, identified by Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State the Department’s commercial medicines unit, which for Health what proportion of the £648 million engages with the national health service when problems allocated for local authority spending on social care are encountered obtaining medicines for hospitals. that also benefits health in 2011-12 was spent by each These figures are approximate, representing minimum local authority in England on (a) prevention services, figures received by the Department. Where a correspondent (b) communicating equipment and adaptations, (c) has not specified a profession, this correspondence has telecare, (d) crisis response services, (e) maintaining been included in written representations from the public. eligibility criteria, (f) re-ablement and (g) mental Where a hon. Member has written on behalf of somebody health. [99736] else, regardless of profession, this has been included in representations from hon. Members. Paul Burstow: The Department does not hold the information in the exact form it has been requested. In Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health September 2011, the Department collected information what estimate he has made of the cost to the NHS of from primary care trusts to understand how the transfer prescription drug shortages. [99039] of national health service money was progressing and 195W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 196W on which services it was being used. A demonstrative Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State graph of all of the forms that the money is being spent for Health what plans his Department has to introduce on can be found in the NHS publication “The Quarter”, a national assessment framework for social care; and if a copy of which has been placed in the Library. he will make a statement. [99737] When the information was collected, the majority of money had yet to be transferred, but agreements had Paul Burstow: The Government will publish their been made which set out on which services the money plans for social care reform in a care and support White would be spent. Paper and progress report on funding in the spring. This will include responding to the recommendations The proportion of £648 million NHS transfer to made by the Law Commission and Commission on local authorities was spent on different services as follows: Funding of Care and Support on assessment. (a) Prevention (not including community equipment and adaptations)—10% Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (b) Community equipment and adaptations—5% how many people have received care packages (c) Telecare—4% following an assessment by social services in each local (d) Crisis response services—8% authority in each of the last five years. [99950] (e) Maintaining eligibility criteria—18% Paul Burstow: Data on the provision of care packages (f) Re-ablement—18% provided by Councils with Adult Social Services (g) Mental health—5% Responsibilities (CASSR) is collected and published by The remainder of the transfer was spent on the the Health and Social Care Information Centre via the following services: National Adult Social Care Intelligence Service. Integrated crisis and rapid response services—8% Data on local authority care package provision is provided in the following table for 2006-07; 2007-08; Bed-based intermediate care services—10% 2008-09; 2009-10 and 2010-11. The data for 2010-11 is Early supported hospital discharge schemes—8% provisional and subject to change. Final data for 2010-11 Other services—14% is due to be published late March 2012.

Total number of adult clients (all ages) receiving social care services following an assessment by each local authority area in the period 2006-07, 2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10, and 2010-11 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 (provisional)

Cumbria 20,210 18,585 19,000 19,920 19,210 Northumberland 16,065 17,675 16,995 16,815 13,360 Gateshead 7,660 8,015 7,875 7,210 5,545 Newcastle upon Tyne 11,040 9,430 9,400 9,615 9,780 North Tyneside 9,020 8,150 7,295 7,185 7,005 South Tyneside 6,370 6,410 6,460 6,605 6,640 Sunderland 12,515 12,750 11,375 10,685 7,575 Hartlepool 4,935 4,260 4,555 5,060 4,870 Middlesbrough 6,055 6,225 6,380 7,045 7,030 Redcar and Cleveland 5,605 5,795 6,100 7,005 6,660 Stockton-on-Tees 7,845 8,110 8,160 8,050 8,145 Durham 26,695 20,285 19,775 19,645 19,875 Darlington 3,885 4,015 3,860 3,855 3,890 Barnsley 11,340 11,735 10,545 6,635 6,715 Doncaster 6,025 7,715 8,815 9,465 8,610 Rotherham 8,060 7,660 8,100 8,050 8,395 Sheffield 17,715 16,610 18,050 16,630 15,130 Bradford 14,570 14,660 14,980 15,405 14,905 Calderdale 6,860 7,210 7,445 7,175 5,475 Kirklees 14,920 15,455 16,520 16,410 17,440 Leeds 19,765 19,425 18,890 17,620 17,245 Wakefield 8,855 9,540 9,045 9,280 9,465 East Riding of Yorkshire 13,345 16,200 15,910 15,330 11,845 Kingston upon Hull 11,390 11,410 10,935 10,130 9,510 North East Lincolnshire 6,820 7,085 7,390 7,465 6,640 North Lincolnshire 6,290 5,545 5,890 5,690 5,835 North Yorkshire 23,835 22,145 25,795 25,810 23,180 York 6,790 6,390 6,845 6,890 7,090 Bolton 10,165 9,910 10,245 9,040 9,310 Bury 6,980 6,595 6,610 6,410 6,530 Manchester 14,675 13,790 11,635 10,165 9,810 Oldham 8,045 7,495 8,000 7,530 5,950 Rochdale 7,755 7,885 7,560 6,925 7,345 Salford 10,520 9,905 9,420 9,040 9,240 Stockport 12,480 11,080 9,765 8,330 8,265 197W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 198W

Total number of adult clients (all ages) receiving social care services following an assessment by each local authority area in the period 2006-07, 2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10, and 2010-11 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 (provisional)

Tameside 9,770 10,250 10,910 11,455 10,890 Trafford 8,575 8,495 8,375 8,650 8,965 Wigan 10,165 10,200 10,100 10,875 9,705 Knowsley 5,535 5,685 5,655 5,495 5,185 Liverpool 16,375 17,575 15,465 15,690 14,710 Sefton 10,065 10,390 11,355 11,965 12,405 St Helens 7,785 7,955 7,960 6,155 6,585 Wirral 11,530 11,780 11,110 10,385 10,525 Cheshire 21,770 20,175 20,950 — — Halton 4,605 4,785 4,880 4,825 4,935 Warrington 7,850 7,780 7,360 7,490 7,530 Lancashire 36,730 36,250 37,575 37,285 36,735 Blackburn with Darwen 4,050 3,945 3,635 3,900 4,335 Blackpool 6,400 5,355 5,445 5,450 5,555 Cheshire East — — — 11,990 10,970 Cheshire West and Chester — — — 10,890 10,675 Warwickshire 14,975 16,290 20,415 15,115 11,645 Birmingham 28,665 28,590 27,990 28,855 27,180 Coventry 6,950 6,630 7,650 7,615 9,340 Dudley 12,700 12,410 12,235 12,120 14,085 Sandwell 11,285 11,020 12,050 11,630 8,705 Solihull 7,140 7,515 6,895 6,700 5,395 Walsall 7,750 7,980 8,305 8,445 5,580 Wolverhampton 8,325 7,915 7,585 6,535 5,795 Staffordshire 25,560 24,650 25,825 27,490 28,535 Stoke-on-Trent 8,885 9,415 10,370 10,645 10,205 Herefordshire 6,065 6,430 6,235 6,460 6,415 Worcestershire 18,360 17,760 17,775 16,875 10,460 Shropshire 12,050 11,950 11,650 11,980 12,040 Telford and the Wrekin 7,000 6,560 6,115 5,940 5,415 Lincolnshire 22,450 25,805 22,015 21,975 20,140 Northamptonshire 19,170 17,925 17,370 16,170 13,470 Derbyshire 28,815 28,900 29,665 27,090 23,740 Derby 10,450 9,765 9,525 7,865 7,815 Leicestershire 17,275 17,430 18,310 17,515 16,560 Leicester 7,905 8,095 7,820 7,895 8,065 Rutland 1,200 1,240 1,310 1,345 1,145 Nottinghamshire 26,900 26,910 28,845 27,595 22,780 Nottingham 8,880 8,340 9,625 9,490 9,295 Hertfordshire 27,345 29,340 29,840 28,835 26,515 Norfolk 34,585 32,005 33,415 31,530 21,335 Oxfordshire 17,000 18,285 17,485 17,545 12,690 Suffolk 24,575 20,850 18,100 18,020 18,075 Bedfordshire 11,795 12,130 11,700 — — Luton 4,520 4,290 3,965 4,480 4,805 Buckinghamshire 11,065 13,380 15,510 14,495 13,785 Milton Keynes 6,305 9,165 5,685 5,630 4,425 Bracknell Forest 3,340 3,740 3,760 3,655 3,295 West Berkshire 4,490 4,685 4,845 4,890 4,895 Reading 4,220 4,500 4,530 4,615 4,200 Slough 3,515 3,460 3,170 3,490 3,050 Windsor and Maidenhead 3,640 4,265 4,505 4,540 3,965 Wokingham 3,165 3,035 3,320 3,150 3,030 Essex 48,080 47,220 48,775 48,165 48,675 Southend-on-Sea 6,580 6,875 7,560 7,195 6,885 Thurrock 3,525 4,010 3,925 3,540 2,720 Cambridgeshire 14,995 16,355 15,130 15,845 15,285 Peterborough 5,560 6,345 5,445 5,900 5,935 Bedford — — — 4,805 3,995 Central Bedfordshire — — — 6,570 5,180 Camden 6,570 6,090 6,050 6,660 5,450 Greenwich 5,780 6,490 6,610 5,730 5,590 Hackney 6,190 5,845 5,650 5,575 5,390 Hammersmith and Fulham 5,635 5,200 4,880 4,740 4,215 199W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 200W

Total number of adult clients (all ages) receiving social care services following an assessment by each local authority area in the period 2006-07, 2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10, and 2010-11 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 (provisional)

Islington 5,255 5,485 5,645 5,380 4,845 Kensington and Chelsea 6,100 5,690 5,915 6,375 6,130 Lambeth 7,660 7,645 8,025 8,755 8,870 Lewisham 5,615 5,900 7,515 7,040 6,960 Southwark 7,870 7,425 7,115 5,215 5,270 Tower Hamlets 6,700 6,425 6,345 6,375 4,430 Wandsworth 7,145 7,020 7,845 5,455 4,840 Westminster 6,370 6,730 6,985 7,090 7,310 City of London 350 325 305 295 295 Barking and Dagenham 5,170 5,530 5,675 6,430 6,660 Barnet 7,630 7,360 7,410 7,365 7,395 Bexley 10,320 9,970 7,840 7,595 7,275 Brent 7,645 7,480 8,365 7,075 6,260 Bromley 10,350 10,445 8,590 8,480 8,260 Croydon 8,450 8,810 9,935 10,515 8,690 Ealing 8,850 8,705 10,135 10,020 9,555 Enfield 9,060 9,225 10,575 10,575 10,500 Haringey 6,695 6,380 6,185 5,745 5,375 Harrow 6,830 5,300 6,505 6,820 6,610 Havering 8,185 8,140 8,080 6,825 6,625 Hillingdon 6,210 6,050 5,840 5,770 6,050 Hounslow 6,095 6,465 6,465 6,355 5,960 Kingston upon Thames 4,395 4,220 4,160 3,410 2,795 Merton 5,550 5,095 5,020 4,950 4,835 Newham 6,845 6,645 6,770 6,070 4,905 Redbridge 8,545 10,360 8,230 7,790 7,500 Richmond upon Thames 5,315 4,800 4,645 4,630 2,825 Sutton 6,025 6,330 6,460 6,395 4,630 Waltham Forest 4,955 4,635 4,675 4,010 3,890 Isle of Wight 8,135 6,900 7,155 4,580 4,270 Surrey 24,940 25,990 28,710 31,095 29,030 West Sussex 27,620 27,865 26,005 22,025 24,460 Dorset 12,440 12,420 12,670 13,255 12,930 Bournemouth 5,755 6,560 6,420 6,265 4,810 Poole 6,540 7,330 6,945 7,020 4,995 Hampshire 94,050 88,635 90,275 45,510 44,290 Portsmouth 6,395 7,625 6,295 6,815 6,190 Southampton 8,730 8,955 8,850 9,850 10,160 East Sussex 16,665 17,075 17,985 18,525 17,745 Brighton and Hove 9,585 10,100 9,885 9,360 4,870 Wiltshire 16,635 15,285 15,335 16,670 15,560 Swindon 6,000 6,050 6,150 6,170 5,990 Kent 47,660 46,115 45,020 46,080 43,165 Medway Towns 8,170 9,515 9,525 8,665 8,165 Cornwall 29,025 31,180 28,340 18,910 20,445 Gloucestershire 20,340 21,230 23,030 25,775 21,660 Somerset 27,370 27,960 27,955 33,460 29,040 Isles of Scilly 85 75 60 55 65 Bath and North East Somerset 5,450 5,620 4,570 5,325 5,310 Bristol 12,425 13,975 14,990 14,550 13,720 North Somerset 5,885 6,855 7,160 6,575 5,935 South Gloucestershire 8,910 9,440 9,105 8,835 6,200 Devon 26,690 27,575 29,100 26,790 24,650 Plymouth 9,595 10,140 10,675 11,010 7,710 Torbay 5,575 5,715 6,230 6,485 5,870 Notes: 1. In 2009-10 the two councils Bedfordshire and Cheshire each split into two councils Bedford and Central Bedfordshire and Cheshire East and Cheshire West and Chester respectively. 2. All adult clients counted as receiving services must have had an assessment prior to the allocation of those services. 3. The information provided is derived from data collected annually on referrals, assessments and packages of care from CASSRs on the form proforma P1. The data contained within the table are rounded to the nearest five. Source: RAP P1 proforma 201W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 202W

Social Services: Disadvantaged Telemedicine Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for for Health (1) what assessment his Department has Health how much funding his Department has made of the effect of telehealth and telecare services on allocated to the troubled families initiative in (a) improving patient experience in the NHS and adult 2011-12, (b) 2012-13, (c) 2013-14 and (d) 2014-15. social services; and if he will make a statement; [99011] [99173] (2) what assessment his Department has made of the effect of telehealth and telecare services on delivering Paul Burstow: The Department is contributing funding efficiency savings in the NHS and adult social services; of £0 in 2011-12, £15 million in 2012-13, up to £20 million and if he will make a statement; [99012] in 2013-14, and up to £25 million in 2014-15 to the troubled families initiative. (3) what plans his Department has to support (a) primary care trusts, (b) clinical commissioning groups and (c) local authorities to commission telehealth and Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for telecare services for people with long-term care needs; Health how many civil servants in his Department are and if he will make a statement. [99098] working on the troubled families initiative. [99174] Paul Burstow: The Department has been trialling the Paul Burstow: Co-ordination of the Department’s effect of telehealth and telecare in the Whole System input to the troubled families programme is being carried Demonstrator programme, a large-scale randomised out by three civil servants, although they are not working control trial. Early headline findings published by the full-time on the troubled families initiative. Their total Department on 5 December 2011 have demonstrated resource input is estimated to be around one full-time that when used appropriately there is potential to reduce equivalent. emergency admissions and mortality. The Department estimates there are 3 million people with long term Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for conditions who could benefit from this approach, which Health how much funding the NHS will contribute is why the Department and leaders from industry signed from pre-allocated resources towards the troubled a concordat demonstrating a commitment to deliver families initiative in (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13, (c) telehealth and telecare to those who will benefit. This is 2013-14 and (d) 2014-15. [99175] the Three Million Lives initiative launched on 19 January 2012. Paul Burstow: The Department will contribute funding of £15 million in 2012-13, up to £20 million in 2013-14, and up to £25 million in 2014-15 to the troubled families FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE initiative. This funding is drawn from the Department’s Argentina central budgets. The national health service funding contributes, to a Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for wide range of health care services which are available to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment troubled families. Some of these services are universal his Department has made of the effect of Argentine (such as access to general practitioners) while others are trade restrictions of the UK economy. [98775] targeted on groups of people with specific needs (such Mr Jeremy Browne: The UK values its relationship as mental health services). It is not possible to identify with Argentina but was disappointed and concerned by exactly which NHS resources are used by people from the recent Argentine actions in respect of our trading troubled families. relationships. We have raised our concerns regarding Argentina’s Streptococcus: Pregnant Women actions with their Chargé in London, and made clear that actions against legitimate commercial activity are Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health unacceptable and a matter of concern not just for the (1) what consideration he has given to routinely UK, but for the EU as a whole. We will remain in close offering Enriched Culture Method tests to pregnant contact with UK businesses trading with Argentina, women to detect Group B Streptococcus infection; and will provide them all appropriate support. [99908] It is not yet clear what impact, if any, Argentina’s recent action will have on the UK economy. In 2011, (2) if he will make an assessment of the merits of Argentina had a trade surplus with the UK, exporting routinely assessing pregnant women for Group B £589 million in goods and importing £383 million. Streptococcus infection. [99909] Council of Europe Anne Milton: The UK National Screening Committee (UK NSC) advises Ministers and the national health Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for service in all four United Kingdom countries about all Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment aspects of screening policy, including, screening policy he has made of progress under the UK Chairmanship for Group B Streptococcus (GBS) carriage in pregnancy. of the Council of Europe’s Committee of Ministers in The UK NSC is currently reviewing the evidence for (a) developing practical measures to combat screening for GBS carriage in pregnancy using the discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation and enriched culture medium test against its criteria. A gender identity and (b) streamlining the Council of public consultation on the screening review will open in Europe’s activities in support of local and regional spring 2012. democracy. [99603] 203W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 204W

Mr Lidington: In January the Council of Europe Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for established a Committee on Equal Opportunities and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Non Discrimination. This new Committee has a remit he has had with his Iranian counterpart on the safety to progress broader equality issues, including Lesbian, of BBC Persia television staff and their families. Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGB&T) rights. The [99917] Council of Europe Secretariat has also, with the benefit of voluntary contributions, been able to establish a Alistair Burt: We remain deeply concerned about the Unit to promote LGB&T rights with certain partner unacceptable harassment of BBC Persia staff by the countries. To further this work the UK will host a Iranian authorities. Last month, BBC Director General conference to promote Council of Europe Mark Thompson revealed that the Iranian regime is Recommendations on combating discrimination on the intimidating the family members of their staff in order grounds of sexual orientation or gender identity in to put pressure on them, a truly deplorable tactic. In a Strasbourg on 27 March. statement on 2 February, I called on the Iranian authorities to cease immediately their harassment of all journalists, The UK is working to streamline the Council of including those working for BBC Persia. I have not Europe’s activities in support of local and regional discussed this issue with my Iranian counterpart, but we democracy. We hosted a High Level Meeting on will continue to raise our concerns about Iran’s appalling 13 February at Lancaster House where ideas to achieve human rights record, including at the UN Human better co-ordination and co-operation in order to deliver Rights Council in Geneva this month. better value for money and impact were discussed. The next step will be for the UK to come forward with Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for proposals that can command consensus. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he has Election Observers taken to secure visas for the families of BBC Persia staff following the closure of the UK embassy in Tehran. [99918] Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what criteria the Alistair Burt: Regrettably, the closure of our embassy Government applies when deciding to which countries in Tehran following the attack on our diplomatic that are holding elections to send electoral observers. compounds in November has meant that all applicants [98529] must now travel outside Iran to obtain a UK visa. However, the UK Border Agency (UKBA) does continue Mr Jeremy Browne: Supporting elections and electoral to offer a full visa service to Iranians through the processes is central to the UK’s work to advance democracy. United Arab Emirates and Turkey. As in all cases, We support election observation by providing UK observers UKBA must be satisfied that applicants meet the UK and financial assistance to international organisations Immigration Rules. that carry out election observation missions, in particular The families of BBC Persian staff who have reported the EU, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation being harassed by the Iranian authorities have our full in Europe (OSCE) and the Commonwealth. We encourage sympathy. I have called on the Iranian authorities to states to invite international observation missions; while cease this harassment immediately. not all states are obliged to, we welcome commitments, Serbia: Ghana such as those by OSCE participating states, to do so. We do not have set criteria in assessing which observation Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for missions to support. We support requests for international Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make an observation where the basic conditions for free and fair official protest to the government of Serbia on its elections are in place, and where practical conditions expulsion of the ambassador of Ghana following his allow for a successful observation mission. The decision country’s recognition of Kosovo. [98288] on whether to support would take into account a range of factors including UK foreign policy priorities, the Mr Lidington: Despite media reporting regarding the risk of instability, fraud or conflict around the election. absence of the Ghanaian ambassador to Serbia I am not aware of official statements from either Government Iran clarifying the situation. Turkey Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for representations he has made to the Iranian Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is Government concerning the sentence of 18 years taking to ensure a speedy resolution of Turkey’s imprisonment imposed on the human rights lawyer application to join the EU. [99194] Abdolfattah Soltani; and if he will make a statement. [99654] Mr Lidington: Her Majesty’s Government strongly supports Turkey’s accession to the EU. We believe this Alistair Burt: I was appalled to see reports of the would benefit EU security and prosperity in both the sentencing of lawyer Abdolfattah Soltani to 18 years in EU and Turkey. prison. It is shocking that the charges against him of We are disappointed by the slow progress of the co-operation with a non-governmental organisation and formal negotiations. We are encouraging Turkey to take of receiving an international human rights award should forward the opportunity presented by the European be considered offences at all. We will continue to urge Commission’s ’Positive Agenda’ for reinvigorating the Iran to address its human rights record, including at the broader EU/Turkey relationship, as a complement to UN Human Rights Council which meets this month. the formal accession process. 205W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 206W

Practically, we will continue to provide technical support for children aged 5-8 have to meet the requirements in to assist Turkey’s EU Accession, including projects the General Childcare Register (GCR). Ofsted inspects focusing on capacity building and human rights. We child minders on both of the registers to ensure that will also continue to support the efforts of the two childminders are meeting these standards. Cypriot leaders to reach a Cyprus settlement. The Government are reforming the EYFS, reducing Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for burdens on providers while continuing to drive Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent improvements in quality. Along with revisions to the discussions he has had with his German and French EYFS, we are making some changes to the requirements counterparts on Turkey’s application to join the EU. in the GCR to maintain the alignment between the two registers. The reforms will be implemented from [99195] September 2012. Mr Lidington: The UK remains the strongest supporter We are also working with the sector in other ways to of EU membership for Turkey. help child minders maintain and improve standards so In November 2011 I spoke to Dr Werner Hoyer, then they can continue to make a distinctive contribution to German Europe Minister, on the Cyprus Settlement early education and child care, delivered in a home negotiations and support for taking forward the EU’s environment. positive agenda for Turkey. I also had discussions with Ruprecht Polenz, (Chair of the Parliamentary Committee on Foreign Affairs in Germany). He emphasised that COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT there were many in the Bundestag who supported eventual Affordable Housing: Construction EU membership for Turkey. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), Communities and Local Government how many and his German counterpart co-signed an article in affordable homes have been (a) begun and (b) December outlining support for Turkey’s accession process. completed in each local authority in the north-west The Secretary of State and I have also had regular since May 2010. [98061] discussions with our French and German counterparts in the margins of Foreign Affairs and General Affairs Andrew Stunell [holding answer 5 March 2012]: The Council. While our opinions on Turkey’s EU accession following table shows the number of affordable homes may vary, we see the value of a strong EU/Turkey started and completed in each local authority in the relationship and we continue to work closely on deepening north-west between April 2010 and September 2011, foreign policy co-operation between Turkey and the EU. the latest period for which data are available, as reported in the Homes and Communities Agency’s six monthly National Housing Statistics. These statistics cover affordable WOMEN AND EQUALITIES housing that is delivered through the Homes and Communities Agency’s national Affordable Housing UN Security Council Resolution programme, and therefore exclude affordable housing Naomi Long: To ask the Minister for Women and that is delivered without this Homes and Communities Equalities what assessment she has made of the Agency grant funding. In the table housing starts cover implementation of UN Security Council Resolution new build homes only, while completions includes new 1325 in Northern Ireland. [99099] build and acquisitions. Lynne Featherstone: UN Security Council Resolution Starts Completions (UNSCR) 1325 makes provision for the protection of women in armed conflicts and to encourage their Allerdale 86 68 participation in conflict resolution and political and Barrow-in-Furness 19 68 Blackburn with 42 142 public life. Darwen The situation in Northern Ireland has never been Blackpool 57 205 considered to be an armed conflict, as defined in Bolton 70 246 international law. Nevertheless, some aspects of UNSCR Burnley 38 46 1325 such as participation in peace and political processes Bury 42 114 are relevant to all states and the Government will continue Carlisle 80 179 to work towards increasing the representation of women Cheshire East 96 162 in Northern Ireland in public and political life. Cheshire West and 123 355 Chester Chester 0 84 EDUCATION Chorley 88 131 Copeland 63 48 Child Minding Crewe and Nantwich 0 48 Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Eden 73 28 Education what steps the Government has taken to Fylde 28 122 maintain the standards which registered childminders Halton 183 193 are required to meet. [99231] Hyndburn 6 3 Knowsley 179 194 Sarah Teather: Child minders caring for children Lancaster 53 48 aged 0-5 have to meet the requirements set out in the Liverpool 428J 368 Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS) and those caring Macclesfield 13 77 207W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 208W

Homelessness is half the average rate under the previous Starts Completions Administration and it remains lower than in 28 of the Manchester 273 402 last 30 years. Oldham 99 133 Pendle 9 26 Preston 25 12 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Ribble Valley 62 34 Rochdale 119 194 Bilateral Aid Rossendale 30 37 Salford 200 233 Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for Sefton 247 207 International Development how many staff his South Lakeland 83 48 Department employs working on bilateral aid South Ribble 11 32 programmes. [99093] St. Helens 114 148 Stockport 159 102 Mr Duncan: The Department for International Tameside 72 99 Development employs 486 home civil servants and 843 Trafford 43 131 staff appointed in country all working overseas on Vale Royal 0 15 bilateral aid programmes. Warrington 67 272 West Lancashire 137 31 British Overseas Territories Wigan 66 193 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Wirral 128 247 International Development what steps his Department Wyre 55 60 is taking to improve broadband internet provision in North-west total 3,766 5,585 British Overseas Territories. [99208] Source: Homes and Communities Agency national Affordable Housing programme. Mr Duncan: Good connectivity is important for the Housing starts cover new build starts only while completions include new build and acquisitions. aided overseas territories, especially for those which are particularly isolated and cannot easily link to regional Homelessness: North West IT providers. There is currently no broadband connection in any aided overseas territory. The Government of St. Helena is exploring the feasibility John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for and potential costs of connecting St Helena with broadband Communities and Local Government what steps are suppliers. In the meantime, the Department for International being taken to reduce levels of homelessness in the Development has paid for recent increases in bandwidth north-west. [99048] of the satellite telecommunications link to St Helena. This is helping students to benefit from distance learning Grant Shapps: This Government are committed to opportunities and allows the hospital to connect to tackling homelessness. We have maintained funding for better health service information. Homelessness Grant at 2010-11 levels—with £400 million The Government of Montserrat has commissioned a over the next four years. A list of allocations for Preventing study on options to improve information communications Homelessness Grant to individual local authorities in technology. This is due to report later this month. 2011-12 can be obtained from the Department’s website at: Tristan da Cunha and Pitcairn also rely on satellite connections links, paid for through the budget aid http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ settlement. There are no plans to provide either territory localgovernmentfinance/supportgrant/ with broadband connections. In addition, Supporting People investment—at £6.5 billion over the spending review period—will protect Departmental Ethnic Minority Staff the preventative services that help the most vulnerable live independently and retain their tenancies. On top of Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for that the Government have announced an additional £70 International Development how many and what million investment this year: proportion of senior civil servants in his Department were from an ethnic minority in March (a) 2010, (b) £20 million—Homelessness Transition Fund to support the roll-out of ‘No Second Night Out’ and protect vital front line 2011 and (c) 2012; and if he will make a statement. services. [98869] £20 million—Preventing Repossessions Fund to enable local Mr Duncan: The latest figures on the number and authorities to intervene earlier and help people stay in their percentage of senior civil servants (SCS) in the Department homes. for International Development (DFID) from a black £20 million—Single Homelessness Prevention Fund to help and ethnic minority (BME) background were: ensure single homeless people get access to good housing advice. £5 million boost to the Homelessness Change Programme Number Percentage (bringing the total investment to £42.5 million) to deliver improved hostel provision and provide over 1,500 new and improved bed March 2010 8 11.3 spaces. March 2011 6 10 £5 million—Social Impact Bond—using a payment by results model to help persistent rough sleepers in London. This is the These are based on quarterly returns. The data for first Social Impact Bond set up to tackle homelessness in the March 2012 will not be available until after 31 March world. 2012. 209W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 210W

DFID has produced annual departmental staff reports Mr Duncan: The UK has made it clear to the Israeli containing this information for several years and these Government that more needs to be done to meet its have been available on request. commitments to ease restrictions on exports, as agreed with the Quartet Representative in February 2011. This Food Aid includes lifting restrictions on the transfer of goods to the West Bank and exports to Israel, which form Gaza’s Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for traditional markets. We continue to raise this issue International Development what recent assessment he regularly at both official and ministerial level, including has made of the costs and benefits of early intervention in recent visits to the region by the Secretary of State for in food crises. [98845] International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), and the Mr O’Brien: Our initial assessments show that early Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth intervention in a food crisis can provide significant Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East benefits, but more work is needed to develop and understand Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt). the evidence for this. The Department for International Development is currently funding a study to look at the Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for response to the food crisis in the Horn of Africa. By International Development what recent assessment he analysing data on the investments made by international has made of the level of unemployment in Gaza. agencies and their impacts, this study will help to identify [98797] early interventions which provide best value for money. Its results should lead to more effective early action Mr Duncan: According to the latest figures from the which will help to limit the impact of future crises. Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, overall unemployment in Gaza declined from 38% in 2010 to Israel 26% in the second quarter of 2011. Youthunemployment has declined over the same period, but remains very Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for high at 38% for 15 to 29-year-olds. We are concerned International Development what recent representations that this upward trend in employment is unsustainable. he has made to the Israeli Government over water Many of those now employed are working in short-term jobs created as a result of a construction boom fuelled supply policies in the Jordan Valley. [98794] by trade through the Hamas-controlled tunnels and a Mr Duncan: The fair and effective distribution of modest increase in international reconstruction projects. shared water resources across the middle east is of great Overall labour force participation remains very low at concern to the UK. We have regular discussions with less than 40%. the Israeli authorities on the issue of access to water in UK aid is supporting over 340 companies in Gaza to the occupied Palestinian Territories, including the Jordan generate jobs for over 1,900 unemployed Gazans. We Valley. I raised this issue in June 2011 during my visit to continue to urge the Israeli Government to ease movement the occupied Palestinian Territories and it was most and access restrictions on Gaza to support the rebuilding recently raised by the British embassy in January 2012. of the Gazan economy and improve access to work for ordinary Gazans. Palestinians Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent estimate he has International Development what representations he made of the number of Gazans dependent on food aid. has made to the Israeli government on the reduction in [98798] permitted fishing off the coast of Gaza. [98795] Mr Duncan: According to the latest figures from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Mr Duncan: The UK regularly makes representations Humanitarian Affairs (UN-OCHA), 66% of Gazans at both ministerial and official level to the Government depend either entirely or partly on food aid. Over the of Israel on the urgent need to ease restrictions on next four years, UK aid will provide food vouchers to Gaza. Most recently, the Secretary of State for International 5,750 poor households and temporary work opportunities Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for to 5,300 vulnerable refugees each year to enable them to Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), and the Minister for meet their basic food needs. We continue to call on the the Middle East, my hon. Friend the Member for North Israeli Government to ease movement and access restrictions East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), discussed these issues to enable the rebuilding of the Gazan economy and to during visits to the region in December 2011 and January reduce aid dependency. 2012. As part of our engagement with the Israeli authorities, Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for we frequently emphasise the impact restrictions have International Development what recent discussions he had on industry in Gaza. Alongside our EU colleagues, has had with the Egyptian authorities on the full we have urged Israel to extend the fishing zone from opening of the Rafah crossing into Gaza. [98799] three to twenty nautical miles, as stipulated in the Oslo Accords. Mr Duncan: During his visit to Egypt in May 2011, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond International Development what representations he (Yorks) (Mr Hague), discussed the relaxation of the has made to the Israeli government on ending Rafah crossing controls with the then Egyptian Foreign restrictions on exports from Gaza. [98796] Minister, Nabil al-Arabi. Following these discussions, 211W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 212W the UK welcomed the decision by Egypt on 27 May Mr Duncan: There are no plans to relocate the 2011 to partially ease restrictions on the movement of Department for International Development to people through the Rafah crossing. However, Rafah is Wellingborough. The Department plans to move its not suitable for commercial goods or large amounts of London headquarters to more cost-effective humanitarian aid. We are clear that the key to the accommodation in Whitehall and, as part of this move, economic regeneration of Gaza is the easing of restrictions will relocate some posts from its London headquarters at the Israeli crossings into Gaza, including for exports, to its second headquarters in East Kilbride near Glasgow, construction material imports and the movement of where around 500 people are currently located (some people. 40% of the UK-based work force). Regulation TRANSPORT Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many regulations his Cycling: Safety Department has repealed between 1 June 2011 and 31 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for January 2012; and if he will estimate the likely savings Transport what assessment she has made of the merits to the public purse in each case. [97670] of introducing a one metre rule for motorists overtaking cyclists; and if she will make a statement. Mr Duncan: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave on 21 June 2011, Official Report, column 199W. [99043] Sahel Norman Baker: All drivers have a duty of care and consideration to other road users. Rules 163 and 211 to 213 of the Highway Code advise drivers to give cyclists Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for at least as much room as a car when overtaking, and to International Development what presence (a) his give them plenty of room and pay attention to any Department and (b) the Government has in the Sahel. sudden change they may have to make. [98844] Although failure to comply with this advice will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, the Highway Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings Development has no presence in the Sahel, but we have under the Traffic Acts to establish liability. This includes a London-based humanitarian team that covers the rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should region. An official from the team visited Niger in February not’ or ‘do/do not’. 2012. To make a law that suggest any space less than one The UK Government have a Political Office in metre is illegal when overtaking cyclists would be difficult Mauritania (with a cross-accredited ambassador resident to enforce. in Morocco) and an embassy in Mali. Our ambassador to Mali is cross-accredited to Niger. Our regional counter- Driving under Influence: Rehabilitation terrorism adviser in Algiers provides thematic coverage and UK Defence Attaches in Morocco and Ghana Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for provide non-resident military coverage. Our posts in Transport pursuant to the answer of 20 February 2012, Mauritania and Mali have five or fewer members of Official Report, column 568W, on driving under staff. This includes UK-based civil servants and staff influence: rehabilitation, if she will list all the meetings employed locally. For operational and security reasons that her Department has had with AA Drivetech where we are unable to provide a further breakdown of the drink drive rehabilitation was (a) a scheduled agenda size of our posts. item and (b) was not scheduled as an agenda item but arose during the course of the meeting. [99755] Tanzania: Radar Mike Penning: Driving Standards Agency officials Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for have met with AA Drivetech only once, on 17 January International Development pursuant to the answer of 2011. The drink drive rehabilitation scheme was a scheduled 31 January 2012, Official Report, columns 588-9W, on agenda item. Tanzania: radar, what progress has been made in Pedicabs reaching an agreement on the oversight of the £29.5 million which BAe systems is required to pay to Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for the government of Tanzania; and when he expects the Transport (1) what insurance is required of owners or payment to be made. [98937] drivers of pedicabs and rickshaws plying for hire; [99157] Mr Andrew Mitchell: We expect all parties to sign the (2) what assessment she has made of the (a) Memorandum of Understanding governing the use of accessibility and (b) level of compliance with disability the payment from BAe to Tanzania this week. discrimination legislation of pedicabs and rickshaws The funds will then be transferred to Tanzania within plying for hire; [99158] 14 working days. (3) how many passengers of pedicabs and rickshaws plying for hire were injured in the last year for which Wellingborough figures are available. [99159] Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: Pedicabs outside London are regarded International Development if he will relocate his in law as “hackney carriages” (taxis) and local licensing Department to Wellingborough. [99951] authorities have the power to license them under the 213W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 214W existing legislation which applies to hackney carriages. Mike Penning: The sequence and provisional closure However, in London, pedicabs do not fall within the dates for the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centres legal classification of a hackney carriage and are therefore (MRCCs) which will close are outlined in the document not subject to formal licensing controls. ″Blueprint for Future Coastguard Organisation in the ″ There is no statutory requirement for insurance for UK ; this document supported my statement to the pedicabs in London—they are not licensed and they are House on 22 November 2011. A copy of this document on a par with ordinary cyclists who do not require is available in the Libraries of the House. insurance. Where pedicabs are licensed as hackney carriages It should be noted that where it is within the control outside London, the licensing authority will be able to of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, the dates and require insurance as part of the licensing process. sequence of closure will be driven by operational In London, pedicabs are the responsibility of the requirements during the implementation of the programme Mayor of London and Transport for London. As such, and, as such, are subject to ongoing review. the Secretary of State has not carried out any specific assessment of accessibility or compliance with disability Roads: Closures discrimination legislation. Similarly, the Secretary of State has not collated any information regarding pedicab Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for passenger injuries in London. Transport when she expects to commence the I do, however, recognise the concerns that have been consultation on the closed roads initiative. [99886] expressed from a number of quarters and I am pleased that the Law Commission, which at the Department’s Mike Penning: The Department for Transport is currently request is carrying out a review of legislation relating to considering the case for making it easier to hold on-road taxis and private hire vehicles, is including the position motor racing events and intends to consult in due in respect of pedicabs as part of that review. course.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation Traffic Regulation Orders

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if she will take steps to increase the Transport (1) what assessment she has made of the sustainability certification of palm biodiesel supplied effect that ending the requirement to advertise traffic under the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation. regulation orders in local print press would have on (a) [99820] the number of jobs at local and regional newspapers and (b) local and regional newspaper revenue; [99660] Norman Baker: The Renewable Transport Fuel (2) what steps her Department will take to ensure Obligations Order was amended in December 2011 to people without internet access are aware of temporary implement the sustainability criteria of the renewable and permanent traffic regulation orders if the energy directive. This means that certificates are only requirement to advertise them in local newspapers is awarded for the supply of sustainable biofuels that removed. [99661] deliver greenhouse gas savings and do not cause undesirable environmental impacts. Suppliers of palm biodiesel are Norman Baker: Following an undertaking in our therefore required to demonstrate compliance with these recent traffic signs policy review document ‘Signing the sustainability criteria to benefit from the incentives Way’, a consultation to review the requirements placed available under the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation. on traffic authorities when they propose and make temporary and permanent traffic orders was launched Rescue Services: Liverpool on 30 January 2012. Further information may be found on the Department for Transport website at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-06/ Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment she has made of the risk of With regard to the effect the proposals would have on local newspapers, I refer the hon. Member to the impact closing Liverpool Coastguard Station. [99768] assessment for the consultation which may be downloaded from the Department’s website at: Mike Penning: The decision I announced on 22 November 2011 included an assessment of the systemic http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-06/impact- assessment.pdf risks associated with the existing national coastguard structure, of which Liverpool Maritime Rescue It is the responsibility of the relevant highway authority Coordination Centre forms a part. to ensure that members of the public are aware of proposals to make temporary and permanent traffic The new ‘National Network’ will address these risks regulation orders. Alongside the consultation, I launched through the application of risk controls or mitigation. draft guidance which states that: This information can be found within the supporting “we consider that in most cases on-line publicity alone will not documentation to the Blueprint document that was provide the coverage required to publicise traffic orders adequately... published to support my announcement. A copy of this the authority will usually need to do something else to inform document is available in the Libraries of the House. people.” The draft guidance also lays out a range of alternative Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for methods of communication that the authority is asked Transport when Liverpool Coastguard Station will be to consider when deciding how to reach their target closed; and if she will make a statement. [99770] audience. 215W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 216W

JUSTICE (2) what the (a) minimum, (b) maximum and (c) average time is for a tribunal to complete a hearing into Cannabis: Convictions an employment and support allowance appeal. [99485]

Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Djanogly: The information is as follows: how many people were charged with possession of (1) During the period 1 April to 31 October 2011 (the cannabis in (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford latest period for which data has been published) the constituency and (b) London in each of the last five average time taken from receipt of an employment and years. [99309] support allowance (ESA) appeal by the Social Security and Child Support (SSCS) Tribunal until (a) the date Mr Blunt: The number of persons proceeded against of the first appeal hearing was 23.1 weeks and (b) a at magistrates courts for possession of cannabis in the decision being issued was 24 weeks. In most ESA appeal Greater London area (including the City of London hearings a decision notice is issued on the day of the and Metropolitan police force areas) from 2006 to 2010 hearing. (latest available) can be viewed in the table. (2) The SSCS Tribunal does not hold information on Charging data are not collated centrally and therefore the single shortest and longest period an appellant proceedings data have been provided in lieu. waited for a benefit appeal hearing. The information Court proceedings data are not available at parliamentary can be provided only at disproportionate cost by manually constituency level. checking each individual case file. However, during the Annual court proceedings data for 2011 are planned period 1 April to 31 October 2011, 119,500 ESA appeals for publication in May 2012. were disposed of. Of these 7% were disposed of within four weeks and 0.1% were more than two years old. An Persons proceeded against at magistrates courts for cannabis possession, Greater appeal may be disposed of without being heard, or be London1, 2006 to 20102,3 heard on more than one day, for example a hearing may Area 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 be adjourned for further evidence to be gathered. Greater 4,032 4,481 5,287 5,836 7,494 London1 HMCTS is working hard to increase the capacity of 1 Includes City of London and Metropolitan police force areas. the SSCS Tribunal and reduce waiting times. It has 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom implemented a range of measures including recruiting these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When more judges and medical panel members; increasing a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for administrative resources; securing additional estate; two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory increasing the number of cases listed in each session; maximum penalty is the most severe. running double shifts in its largest processing centre; 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted running Saturday sittings in some of the busiest venues; from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police and setting up a customer contact centre to deal with forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection telephone inquiries. processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. All of this is having a positive effect. The number of Source: disposals has increased significantly from 279,000 in Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice 2009-10 to 380,000 in 2010-11 and the tribunal will Drugs: Rehabilitation dispose of around 435,000 appeals this year, with the capacity for half a million disposals in 2012-13. Disposals outstripped receipts for the 10 months between January Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 and October 2011, and the number of cases waiting Justice (1) what the maximum number of crimes to be heard reduced by over 35,000 between April and someone has been convicted of whilst serving a drug October. The average waiting time has stabilised nationally, rehabilitation requirement in each of the last three and is beginning to fall in many venues. years; [99851] (2) how many convictions have been made in respect EU Justice and Home Affairs of crimes committed by people convicted whilst serving a drug rehabilitation requirement in each of the last three years. [99852] Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people worked for the Data Protection Mr Blunt: The information requested is not available; Secretariat established by EU Council Decision 2000/ this is because the police national computer data held 641/JHA of 17 October 2000 in each of the last by the Ministry of Justice, which covers offenders’ 10 years. [99913] criminal histories, does not enable us to identify convictions that took place while offenders were serving drug Mr Djanogly: As at 12 March 2012, there are three rehabilitation requirements. officials working for the Data Protection Secretariat. The total number of officials has been the same since Employment and Support Allowance: Appeals the Secretariat was established in 2001.

Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) what the average time is between the referral of whether the UK has enacted all of the provisions of employment and support allowance appeals to EU Council Framework Decision 2001/220/JHA; and tribunals and a (a) hearing date and (b) decision being what assessment his Department has made of its promulgated; [99484] effectiveness in safeguarding victims’ rights. [99915] 217W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 218W

Mr Blunt: The UK has implemented the Framework Regulation Decision through a combination of legislative and administrative measures. The requirements in the Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Framework Decision were a step towards enabling UK Justice how many regulations his Department has citizens to travel throughout the EU with the confidence repealed between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012; that, should they fall victim to crime in any member and if he will estimate the likely savings to the public state, their rights would be respected when participating purse in each case. [97669] in criminal proceedings and they would be able to Mr Djanogly: Between 1 June 2011 and 31 January access a minimum level of support. 2012, the Ministry of Justice did not repeal any regulation However, I share the European Commission’s view that has regulatory impact. that the objectives of the Framework Decision have not The Ministry of Justice will be considering its stock been fully realised. Last year the European Commission of regulation as part of the Red Tape Challenge later in published a proposal for a directive of the European the year. Parliament and of the Council establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of Reoffenders: Housing victims of crime. The UK has opted in to this directive. Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Legal Aid: Fees and Charges Justice if he proposes that housing outcomes will play a Tony Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice role in the payment by results programme to reduce what his policy is on the rate of interest charged on rates of reoffending. [99346] statutory charges for people who have used legal aid; Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice has no plans to pay and if he will make a statement. [99891] providers for achieving specific housing outcomes under Mr Djanogly: Payment of the statutory charge in its payment by results pilot programme. respect of the legal aid fund must normally be made For most of the pilots in the programme, providers immediately. Where the charge attaches to property will be paid by the Ministry of Justice according to their which is being used as the home of the person liable to success at achieving a reduction in reoffending. The pay it, or (in family proceedings) money which is to be remaining pilots are testing a justice reinvestment model, used to buy a home, enforcement of the charge may be targeting a reduction in demand on local justice services. postponed where it would be unreasonable for the client Providers will be given increased freedom to choose the to repay the relevant amount. In those circumstances rehabilitation services that are available to offenders simple interest is payable at the rate of 8% a year. within each pilot. Litter: Prosecutions Secure Accommodation Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people were (a) charged, (b) prosecuted what steps he is taking to improve the advice and and (c) convicted for dropping litter in each of the last assistance provided to young offenders to secure five years; and if he will make a statement. [98804] appropriate accommodation on release. [99249] Mr Blunt: The number of defendants proceeded against Mr Blunt: Youth Offending Teams advise and assist at magistrates court and found guilty at all courts for young offenders to find suitable accommodation on littering offences in England and Wales, 2006-10 can be release, where necessary securing the involvement of the found in the table. local Children’s Services and/or the housing authority Charging data are not collected by the Ministry of who have statutory responsibilities in respect of young Justice. people with accommodation and other needs. Annual court proceedings data for 2011 are planned The Youth Justice Board is working to encourage the for publication in May 2012. setting up and expansion of regional resettlement consortia to promote closer working between Youth Offending Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates court and found guilty at all courts for littering1, England and Wales, 2006-102,3 Teams, custodial establishments and their partners in Defendants the statutory and voluntary sectors to enhance joint 2006 2007 20084 2009 2010 planning and commissioning of resettlement services. Proceeded 2,031 3,066 3,571 4,483 4,548 Victims: EU Action against Found 1,349 2,304 2,715 3,489 3,573 guilty Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 1 An offence under s.87, 93, 94, 94(8)(9) Environmental Protection Act 1990, what assessment he has made of whether the 2011 as substituted by s.21 Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005. proposal for a Directive of the European Parliament 2 The figures given relate to persons for whom these offences were the and of the Council establishing minimum standards principal offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences, the offence selected is the one for which on the rights, support and protection of victims of the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or crime will improve the position of victims of crime in more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory the UK. [99916] maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted Mr Blunt: As negotiations on the directive are ongoing from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police it is not yet possible to fully assess its likely impact on forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection the position of victims of crime in the UK. However, we processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. are confident it will significantly improve the position 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court June, July and August 2008. of British victims of crime in other EU countries. 219W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 220W

Youth Custody recorded residential address or proxy in each local authority area in Wales who were held in predominant function male young offender institutions, predominant Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for function male local prisons and other prisons (including Justice how many young adult offenders aged 18 to 20 female prisons) on a set day in each month where data from each local authority area in Wales have been held are available since May 2009. in (a) young offender institutions, (b) local prisons and (c) other parts of the secure estate in each month These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording since May 2009. [98507] system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Mr Blunt: All young offenders sentenced to detention Information on offenders’ residences is provided by in a young offender institution (DYOI), which is the offenders on reception into prison and recorded on a most common custodial sentence for this age group, are central IT system. Addresses can include a home address, held in appropriately designated YOI accommodation an address to which offenders intend to return on within the prison estate. The majority of this discharge or next of kin address and these figures are accommodation is in dedicated YOIs, although some provided in the table. If no address is given, an offender’s establishments in the estate have a dual designation committal court address is used as a proxy for the area (designated both as a prison and a YOI) and hold both in which they are resident. These figures are also included adult prisoners and young offenders. in the table. No address has been recorded and no court The following table shows the number of offenders information is available for around 3% of all offenders, aged 18 to 20-years-old with a these figures are excluded from the table.

Number and location of male and female young adult offenders (aged 18-20) originating from each local authority area in Wales 2009 2010 2011 2012 Originating local authority area in Predominant Wales function May Sep Nov Jan Mar May Jul Sep Nov Jan

Anglesey (a) Male young —3221————— offender institutions (b) Male local ——223111—2 prisons (c) Other prisons ———————— 1 1 (including female prisons)

Blaenau Gwent (a) Male young —31111111— offender institutions (b) Male local 1—47671411813 prisons (c) Other prisons ——————— 1 2 1 (including female prisons)

Bridgend (a) Male young 2 1———— 1——— offender institutions (b) Male local 755971041168 prisons (c) Other prisons 323433221— (including female prisons)

Caerphilly (a) Male young 1 1———————— offender institutions (b) Male local 16 13 7 6 7 10 5 7 6 4 prisons (c) Other prisons ————211111 (including female prisons)

Cardiff (a) Male young 17 33 16 12 11 7 7 7 7 8 offender institutions (b) Male local 137 106 104 105 97 110 118 105 97 90 prisons (c) Other prisons 510117565535 (including female prisons) 221W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 222W

Number and location of male and female young adult offenders (aged 18-20) originating from each local authority area in Wales 2009 2010 2011 2012 Originating local authority area in Predominant Wales function May Sep Nov Jan Mar May Jul Sep Nov Jan

Carmarthenshire (b) Male local 686781210131011 prisons (c) Other prisons 1 2—— 1———— 1 (including female prisons)

Ceredigion (a) Male young —1111————— offender institutions (b) Male local 2——————— 1— prisons

Conwy (a) Male young 12744322813 offender institutions (b) Male local 44116577864 prisons (c) Other prisons 1—11211—32 (including female prisons)

Denbighshire (a) Male young 71175334532 offender institutions (b) Male local 124610453213 prisons (c) Other prisons ———— 1— 1 1 3 5 (including female prisons)

Flintshire (a) Male young 915117 81210138 6 offender institutions (b) Male local 1981015151015171611 prisons (c) Other prisons 1242453296 (including female prisons)

Gwynedd (a) Male young 1010965910654 offender institutions (b) Male local 89117644319 prisons (c) Other prisons —111231241 (including female prisons)

Isle of Anglesey (a) Male young 4————————— offender institutions

Merthyr Tydfil (a) Male young 21384144445 offender institutions (b) Male local 29 39 42 36 36 39 42 36 40 43 prisons (c) Other prisons —31—555326 (including female prisons)

Monmouthshire (b) Male local 2———112312 prisons

Neath Port Talbot (a) Male young —2122—1323 offender institutions (b) Male local 4576785788 prisons 223W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 224W

Number and location of male and female young adult offenders (aged 18-20) originating from each local authority area in Wales 2009 2010 2011 2012 Originating local authority area in Predominant Wales function May Sep Nov Jan Mar May Jul Sep Nov Jan

(c) Other prisons —223321233 (including female prisons)

Newport (a) Male young 6533533414 offender institutions (b) Male local 33 24 22 12 16 13 21 23 26 24 prisons (c) Other prisons 14332—1233 (including female prisons)

Pembrokeshire (a) Male young 1— 1——————— offender institutions (b) Male local 41—44541—5 prisons

Powys (a) Male young 6333221322 offender institutions (b) Male local 2—21332—14 prisons (c) Other prisons 1—11211141 (including female prisons)

Rhondda (a) Male young —666553333 offender institutions (b) Male local —118 9111011101815 prisons (c) Other prisons —22—1——122 (including female prisons)

Rhondda, Cynon, (a) Male young 3————————— Taff offender institutions (b) Male local 28————————— prisons (c) Other prisons 2————————— (including female prisons)

Swansea (a) Male young 6796785212 offender institutions (b) Male local 63 50 46 51 49 51 52 52 55 46 prisons (c) Other prisons 6866323364 (including female prisons)

The Vale of (a) Male young —221221112 Glamorgan offender institutions (b) Male local 381069103985 prisons (c) Other prisons —1213——111 (including female prisons)

Torfaen (a) Male young 112111111— offender institutions (b) Male local 3453451328 prisons 225W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 226W

Number and location of male and female young adult offenders (aged 18-20) originating from each local authority area in Wales 2009 2010 2011 2012 Originating local authority area in Predominant Wales function May Sep Nov Jan Mar May Jul Sep Nov Jan

(c) Other prisons —————— 1——— (including female prisons)

Wrexham (a) Male young 22 14 9 9 10 8 5 6 — 2 offender institutions (b) Male local 4456377567 prisons (c) Other prisons 1211224277 (including female prisons)

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Apprentices Action for Employment Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he Business, Innovation and Skills whether the tendering is taking to encourage apprentices to stay with the process for the OLASS4 contract was undertaken while companies which have trained them; and if he will A4e were under investigation by (a) the Department of make a statement. [99612] Work and Pensions, (b) the Serious Fraud Office, (c) the police and (d) other public bodies. [99565] Mr Hayes: Apprentices are employees, and will make Mr Hayes: Under the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children independent choices about their employment in a similar and Learning Act 2009, decisions about the awarding of way to all employees. contracts are for the chief executive of Skills Funding Evidence shows that Apprenticeships deliver economic to make. and social benefits to individuals in terms of higher In respect of the OLASS4 procurement process, the wages and improved employment prospects, to businesses chief executive is undertaking a procurement process in in the form of higher profits and increased competitiveness, line with the EU Procurement and EU Remedies Directives. and to the wider economy and society as a whole. That process is still under way and will not conclude Satisfaction rates for Apprenticeships are high, with until May 2012 at the earliest. individuals recognising that the impact of Apprenticeship As part of this procurement, the chief executive of training is significant and helps with career prospects. Skills Funding has made clear to A4e that he must have Apprentices and employers tell us that doing an the results of the independent review of audit and apprenticeship increases workforce morale and individuals’ control procedures A4e is undertaking into its own loyalty to their employer, particularly where employers operations, and the results of the Department for Work support individual apprentices to continue to progress and Pensions’ investigation, before any formal contract within their business. with A4e is entered into. The Government are working to improve the quality Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for of apprenticeships and to ensure individuals and employers Business, Innovation and Skills whether he is reviewing understand the benefits which apprenticeships bring. (a) his Department’s contract for the provision of We will continue to champion these benefits to encourage education of prisoners and (b) any other departmental employers to invest in Apprenticeships. contracts held by A4e. [99566] Apprentices: Agriculture Mr Hayes: The Department has no contracts with A4e. Contracts for the provision of education in prisons Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State and provision covering adult skills in England are made for Business, Innovation and Skills what measures the by the chief executive of Skills Funding, supported by Government has introduced since May 2010 to the Skills Funding Agency. encourage agricultural apprenticeships. [99783] The chief executive is currently undertaking a re-procurement exercise in respect of offender learning Mr Hayes: The Apprenticeship programme is our and contracts will be agreed in May, at the earliest. preferred vocational route. It is demand led, therefore The chief executive has a number of contracts with expanding and improving the apprenticeship offer depends A4e for adult skills. In the light of allegations, the chief on businesses taking the opportunity to employ apprentices. executive has sought assurance from A4e. As part of The National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) works this, he is sending in auditors, along with auditors from with employers and training providers to increase their the Department for Work and Pensions, to ensure there participation in apprenticeship delivery and are particularly is no risk to public funding and will take appropriate working with LANTRA, the sector skills council for action, including removal of contracts, if the audit land based and environmental industries, to increase findings give grounds for this. growth of apprenticeships in agricultural areas. 227W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 228W

Recent announcements on measures to expand Departmental Travel opportunities and boost the quality of apprenticeships apply across all sectors. In particular, up to 40,000 Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for incentive payments of £1,500 will be made available for Business, Innovation and Skills how many away days small employers who take on their first new young his Department has held since May 2010; what the apprentices. This may be particularly relevant to the location was of each such away day; how many staff agricultural sector. attended; and what the cost was of each such event. We have seen growth in the number of apprenticeship [93843] starts in agriculture, horticulture and animal care sector in the 2010/11 academic year (Table 1). Norman Lamb: The Department has held 64 away Table 1: Apprenticeship starts in the agriculture, horticulture and animal care days at a cost of £137,000 since May 2010. This includes sector subject area, 2008/09 to 2010/11 team and group events. The total number of attendees Apprenticeship starts was 2,815. The average cost per attendee was £48.66. Further details will be placed in the Libraries of the 2008/09 5,210 House. 2009/10 5,690 2010/11 7,380 Training, planning and performance improvement Notes: are essential for the long term success of any organisation, 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. and Government is no different. The change of environment 2. Information on the number of apprenticeship starts is published in a can help teams to focus on the objectives of the day, to quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 31 January 2012: ensure they are successful. http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current Officials at all levels of the Department make every 3. Information on apprenticeship starts by framework and sector subject areas are available in the SFR Supplementary Tables: effort to ensure that all such spending is clearly value for http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statisticalfirstrelease/ money for the taxpayer. sfr_supplementary_tables/Apprenticeship_sfr_supplementary_tables/ Source: Education: Prisoners Individualised Learner Record

Consumers: Protection Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what consultation he has held with stakeholders before the awarding of the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for contract for the education of prisoners. [99567] Business, Innovation and Skills how many full-time equivalent staff in his Department work on (a) Mr Hayes: All decisions relating to the funding of promoting fair markets, (b) promoting consumer individual training providers, including the award of protection and (c) preventing cartel behaviour; and if contracts for offender learning, are made by the chief he will make a statement. [97626] executive of Skills Funding, supported by the Skills Funding Agency. Norman Lamb: The Department for Business, Innovation The re-procurement of offender learning (which is and Skills (BIS) has 376 full-time equivalent staff working currently under way) is being supported by the National within its Market Frameworks Group. Market Frameworks Offender Management Service (NOMS), which is part Group is the part of BIS that is responsible for promoting of the Ministry of Justice. All decisions about the fair markets. Consumer protection and the prevention procurement process are being made in consultation of cartel behaviour is the responsibility of the Department’s and agreement with NOMS and Prison Governors. Consumer and Competition Policy Directorate (CCP). CCP has 78 full-time equivalent staff. Of these, 39 work Employment on consumer protection issues and 9.7 on competition. The remainder work across CCP on a range of different Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for issues. Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has In addition to the staff identified above, others in BIS made of the UK’s position in the OECD Employment spend some of their time working in or supporting the Protection Index; and what assessment he has made of work on fair markets, consumer protection and cartel the relationship between such rankings and growth behaviour (eg press officers, better regulation specialists, levels. [98914] Ministers’ private office staff). Norman Lamb: The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in its reassessment Copyright of its Jobs Strategy in 2006 identified the UK as a ‘successful’ employment performer. It also concluded Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for that Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has “there is no single combination of policies and institutions to had with the Secretary of State for Education on the achieve and maintain good labour market performance”. potential effects on educational material of any They also concluded that proposed changes to licensing schemes. [98859] “this allows scope to tailor policy packages to suit national preferences with respect to equity, risk-taking and other objectives.” Norman Lamb: There are regular discussions between The UK is a good example of this. The UK’s position in Government Departments interested in the Hargreaves the OECD Employment Protection Index indicates that agenda, which have included discussions between BIS it is a country with light employment protection legislation. and Department for Education officials. This is partly because social protection in the UK tends 229W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 230W to be delivered through the tax and benefit system Higher Education rather than employment regulation. For example, its benefit system tends to be more comprehensive but less Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for generous than in most other countries. Business, Innovation and Skills what the completion The UK has one of the highest employment rates in rate was for students enrolled on designated higher the world and its light employment regulation system is education courses in the latest period for which figures a contributory factor in this. Businesses and workers are available. [99049] have the freedom to devise the form of work that suits them. It enables work to be combined with their other Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency responsibilities and the rest of their lives. And this is (HESA) publishes information on non-continuation rates one of the reasons why, for example, female employment of undergraduate students, including projected outcomes rates are amongst the highest in the world as women (completion rates), through the HESA Performance can combine work with their family responsibilities. Indicators release. The latest available figures show that The light employment regulation regime also fits well 79.2% of full-time students starting first degree courses with other parts of the UK system. It helps to deliver at English higher education institutions in 2008-09 were the employment opportunities that the UK welfare to expected to complete their course and gain a degree work system can translate into jobs. This synergy between level qualification. Figures for the 2009-10 academic the employment regulation systems and the welfare to year will become available from 29 March 2012. work policies is one of the reasons why employment Further information on HESA performance indicators held up well during and since the recession—despite the can be found at: size of the fall in output. http://www.hesa.ac.uk/content/view/2072/141/ However, there is still more to do. The Employment Law Review and the welfare to work reforms both aim to make the system even more employment friendly. Higher Education Funding Council for England: And the combination these labour market reforms with Manpower the Government’s other structural and macroeconomic reforms have the objective of not just boosting employment John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, but also growth and incomes. Innovation and Skills how many staff were employed by the Higher Education and Funding Council for Employment Agencies: EU Law England in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; and how many he expects to be employed in (i) 2011-12 and (ii) Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012-13. [99364] Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has any plans to review the Agency Workers Directive before Mr Willetts [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The the end of its two year trial. [99314] Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) has confirmed their staffing level as 251 full-time equivalent Norman Lamb: The Government will monitor the staff in 2009-10, 247 full-time equivalent staff in 2010-11 impact of the Agency Workers Regulations on our and 247 full-time equivalent staff for 2011-12 which economy and contribute to the EU Commission’s review includes 23 vacancies. HEFCE are forecasting their of the directive in December 2013. staffing levels for 2012-13 will remain at the same level On 23 November 2011, as part of a package of as 2011-12 at 247 full-time equivalent. reforms to employment law, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend Higher Education Funding Council for England: the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), announced Operating Costs that the Government will review the paperwork obligations of the Agency Workers Regulations in 2013. John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the administration and Government Departments: Procurement running costs of the Higher Education and Funding Council for England were in 2010-11; and what he Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State expects those costs to be in 2011-12. [99365] for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to ensure that Government sub-contractors are Mr Willetts [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The excluded from further contracts if they fail to pay their Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) suppliers within an agreed time period. [99013] net total administration and running costs for 2010-11 was £17.243 million. This was reported in their published Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply on behalf of annual accounts. the Cabinet Office. HEFCE’s interim accounts for 2011-12 are forecasting The Government recognise that in the past a culture administration and running costs of £20.759 million. of late payment for work done made it harder for SMEs This figure includes an amount of £4.026 million which to do business with government and introduced in previous years was classified as programme costs. In complications for suppliers managing their cash flow. 2011-12 this was re-categorised following new government It is Government policy to pay 80% of undisputed guidance on the definition of administration costs. A invoices within five days and to pass 30 day payment direct comparison with 2010-11 figures (i.e. with costs terms down supply chains by including requirements categorised on the same basis) would show 2011-12 at a for suppliers to do so in contracts. forecast of £16.733 million. 231W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 232W

Higher Education: Admissions Mr Willetts: In 2010/11, the Student Loans Company provided a total of £42 million in grants and loans to Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for around 5,300 full time students attending privately funded Business, Innovation and Skills what progress he has institutions so as to help with their studies. made on removing the cap on higher education places. The same sum would in 2012/13 fund around 3,200 [99337] students attending institutions funded by the Higher Education Funding Council for England. Mr Willetts: The Higher Education White Paper “Students at the Heart of the System”, published in Insolvency: York June 2011, announced reforms to free up at least 85,000 higher education places in academic year 2012-13. Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Institutions are allowed to compete freely for students Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses in with AAB+ grades at A’ level or equivalent and have the City of York were declared bankrupt in each of the bid for a flexible margin of 20,000 places to support the last 10 years. [99751] expansion of good quality and value-for-money provision. Norman Lamb: Official statistics covering corporate We intend to liberalise higher education places further insolvencies for England and Wales are not currently over the course of this Parliament and will make an available at sub-national level. announcement on arrangements for 2013-14 in due Quarterly totals for corporate insolvencies in England course. and Wales are presented in the Quarterly Insolvency Statistics, the latest publication of which can be found Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for on the Insolvency Service website here: Business, Innovation and Skills how many places have been reallocated between higher educational http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/otherinformation/ statistics/insolvency-statistics.htm institutions as a result of tuition fee differentials; which institutions have (a) gained and (b) lost places as a Members: Correspondence result of such reallocation; and if he will publish the most recent figures for student retention for all of the Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, institutions concerned. [99655] Innovation and Skills when he intends to reply to the letter from the right hon. Member for Leicester East of Mr Willetts: In order to increase student choice and 7 February 2012 on the final dividend to BCCI support a more diverse higher education sector the creditors. [99034] Government introduced a flexible margin of 20,000 higher education places in 2012/13. This involved the Norman Lamb: The Secretary of State for Business, removal of places from all institutions so that they Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member could be redistributed based on price and quality criteria. for Twickenham (Vince Cable), has responded to the The Higher Education Funding Council for England right hon. Member on 13 March 2012. (HEFCE) announced the results of this exercise on 7 March 2012. The allocations to institutions are available Retail Trade: Competition on the HEFCE website: John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.hefce.ac.uk/news/hefce/2012/margin.htm Business, Innovation and Skills which organisations he HEFCE will publish figures for the overall effect of has met to discuss the draft Groceries Code student number controls on all institutions when it Adjudicator Bill in the last 12 months. [98822] announces provisional grant allocations on 29 March 2012. Norman Lamb: The Secretary of State for Business, The Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member publishes information on non-continuation rates of for Twickenham (Vince Cable), has not met any undergraduate students, including non-continuation organisations to discuss the Groceries Code Adjudicator following year of entry (retention rates), through the Bill over the last 12 months. HESA Performance Indicators release. The latest available Since my appointment earlier this year as the Minister figures show that 89.4% of full-time students starting responsible for the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill I first degree courses at English higher education institutions have met representatives of both suppliers and retailers in 2008/09 continued at the same institution the following to discuss the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill: specifically year. Figures for the 2009/10 academic year will become the Food and Drink Federation, the British Brands available from 29 March 2012. Group, the British Retail Consortium and ASDA. Further information on HESA performance indicators Students: Loans can be found at: http://www.hesa.ac.uk/content/view/2072/141/ Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the financial implications of not imposing Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make an charges for the early repayment of student loans. estimate of how many student places could be funded [99052] at higher education institutions if the loans drawn down by students enrolled on designated courses were Mr Willetts: Many borrowers choose to make voluntary instead accessed by students attending Higher early repayments at present. Early repayments of around Education and Funding Council for England funded £251 million were received in the financial year 2010-11. institutions. [99938] This reduces the long-term public cost of student loans. 233W Written Answers13 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 234W

The introduction of a charge for early repayments awarding powers are responsible for safeguarding the could have led to changes in borrower behaviour which quality of their teaching and the standards of their could affect the level of these repayments. academic awards, including the quality and standards If early repayments were to cease entirely, the resource of any privately funded provider whose awards they accounting and budgeting (RAB) charge (the cost of validate. The Quality Assurance Agency for Higher the loans to Government) could increase by around Education assesses the way in which universities manage 2 percentage points. the quality and standards of their partnership arrangements with private providers. Management of collaborative The extent to which charges for early repayment arrangements is assessed as part of institutional review, might offset these increased costs would be dependent or, where partnerships form a significant amount of on the level of the charge and the number of borrowers provision, through a separate review of partnerships, or who still chose to make early repayments. a hybrid of the two. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Courses leading a Higher National Diploma (HND) Business, Innovation and Skills what quality assurance or Higher National Certificate (HNC) can be designated measures his Department put in place for designated for student support and are regulated by Ofqual. Awarding higher education courses on which students may apply Organisations have to meet Ofqual’s formal “Recognition for higher education student loans from the Student Criteria” which provides assurance to learners about Loans Company. [99939] the quality of regulated qualifications, and they are then subject to compliance with Ofqual’s “General Mr Willetts: The quality assurance arrangements for Conditions of Recognition” which is monitored on an designated higher education courses depend on the ongoing basis. Providers offering HNDs and HNCs nature of the awarding body and of the qualification must satisfy criteria set out by the awarding body to being awarded. Universities and other bodies with degree demonstrate they are ‘fit and proper’ to offer them.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 13 March 2012

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 119 JUSTICE—continued Broadcasting Court Proceedings ...... 125 Legal Aid (Victims of Domestic Violence) ...... 129 Broadcasting Court Proceedings ...... 134 Libel Laws ...... 130 Community Service Sentences...... 132 Metal Theft...... 133 Domestic Violence ...... 129 Prison Provision (Charities) ...... 132 European Court of Human Rights ...... 131 Public Order Convictions (Havering) ...... 129 Illegal Encampments (Public Parks)...... 125 Topical Questions ...... 135 Legal Aid (Benefit Cases)...... 126 Victims of Crime...... 123 Legal Aid (Litigants in Person) ...... 127 Work in Prisons...... 119 Legal Aid (Litigants in Person) ...... 133 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 13 March 2012

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 11WS JUSTICE...... 14WS Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body Report...... 11WS Prison Service Pay Review Body (11th Report) ...... 14WS

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 12WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 15WS Bill of Rights Commission (Membership) ...... 12WS Review Body on Senior Salaries (34th Report)...... 15WS EDUCATION...... 12WS Early Intervention Foundation...... 12WS TRANSPORT ...... 16WS Street Works Overrun Penalties...... 16WS HEALTH...... 13WS NHS Pay Review Body ...... 13WS TREASURY ...... 11WS Review Body on Doctors’ and Dentists’ Anti-avoidance...... 11WS Remuneration ...... 13WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 14WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 17WS Transit Visa Requirements (Syrian, Libyan and Social Justice (Transforming Lives)...... 17WS Egyptian Nationals)...... 14WS Social Security Advisory Committee (SSAC)...... 18WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 13 March 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 225W CABINET OFFICE—continued Action for Employment ...... 225W Departmental Ethnic Minority Staff...... 166W Apprentices...... 226W Food ...... 167W Apprentices: Agriculture...... 226W Government Departments: Cost Effectiveness ...... 167W Consumers: Protection...... 227W Government Departments: Public Consultation .... 167W Copyright...... 227W Morning Star ...... 167W Departmental Travel ...... 228W New Businesses: York ...... 168W Education: Prisoners...... 228W Employment ...... 228W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 206W Employment Agencies: EU Law ...... 229W Affordable Housing: Construction...... 206W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 229W Homelessness: North West...... 207W Higher Education...... 230W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 231W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 170W Higher Education Funding Council for England: Broadband ...... 170W Manpower ...... 230W Data Protection: Internet ...... 170W Higher Education Funding Council for England: Libraries ...... 170W Operating Costs ...... 230W VisitEngland ...... 171W Insolvency: York ...... 232W Members: Correspondence ...... 232W DEFENCE...... 133W Retail Trade: Competition...... 232W Air Training Corps: Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 133W Students: Loans ...... 232W Armed Forces ...... 133W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 133W CABINET OFFICE...... 165W Armed Forces: Life Insurance...... 139W Deaths...... 165W Armed Forces: Mental Health ...... 140W Departmental Contracts ...... 166W Challenger Tanks ...... 141W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HOME DEPARTMENT...... 151W Departmental Ethnic Minority Staff...... 141W Animal Experiments ...... 151W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 142W Appeals: Mohamed Ami...... 152W Middle East ...... 143W Asylum: Lewisham...... 152W NATO: Military Exercises...... 143W Crimes of Violence: Pedicabs ...... 153W Private Education...... 147W Extradition: Christopher Tappin...... 153W RAF Lossiemouth ...... 148W Food ...... 153W Serco ...... 148W Foreign Workers: Domestic Service...... 153W Veterans: Suicide...... 150W Human Trafficking ...... 154W Members: Correspondence ...... 154W EDUCATION...... 205W National Crime Agency: UK Border Agency...... 154W Child Minding ...... 205W Naturalisation...... 155W Organised Crime: Colombia ...... 155W Passports...... 156W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 169W Police: Court Orders ...... 156W Departmental Consultants...... 169W Police National Computer ...... 151W Regulation ...... 156W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 157W Youssef Boutros-Ghali...... 156W Aviation: Exhaust Emissions...... 157W Carbon Sequestration ...... 157W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 171W Carbon Sequestration: Scotland...... 158W House of Commons: Catering ...... 171W Climate Change ...... 159W Trees ...... 172W Electric Vehicles ...... 159W Energy...... 160W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 208W Energy: Prices ...... 160W Bilateral Aid...... 208W Green Deal Scheme...... 160W British Overseas Territories...... 208W Renewable Energy: Scotland ...... 162W Departmental Ethnic Minority Staff...... 208W Food Aid...... 209W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Israel...... 209W AFFAIRS...... 162W Palestinians ...... 209W Agriculture: Exports ...... 162W Regulation ...... 211W Dogs: Tagging...... 163W Sahel ...... 211W Hydrofluorocarbons ...... 163W Tanzania: Radar ...... 211W Livestock: Waste Disposal ...... 164W Wellingborough...... 211W Meat: Exports ...... 165W Pet Animals Act 1951...... 165W JUSTICE...... 215W Cannabis: Convictions ...... 215W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 202W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 215W Argentina...... 202W Employment and Support Allowance: Appeals...... 215W Council of Europe ...... 202W EU Justice and Home Affairs...... 216W Election Observers ...... 203W Legal Aid: Fees and Charges...... 217W Iran...... 203W Litter: Prosecutions...... 217W Serbia: Ghana...... 204W Regulation ...... 218W Turkey...... 204W Reoffenders: Housing...... 218W Secure Accommodation ...... 218W Victims: EU Action...... 218W HEALTH...... 183W Youth Custody...... 219W Dental Services ...... 183W Diabetes ...... 184W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 168W Diabetes: Leicester ...... 185W Ministerial Travel ...... 168W Diseases ...... 185W Regulation ...... 168W First Aid: Curriculum ...... 186W Security...... 169W Food: Labelling...... 186W Heart Diseases ...... 186W Herbal Medicine: EU Law ...... 187W TRANSPORT ...... 212W Hospices: Finance...... 188W Cycling: Safety ...... 212W Hospitals: Older People ...... 189W Driving under Influence: Rehabilitation...... 212W Mental Health Services: Hampshire...... 190W Pedicabs ...... 212W Mental Health Services: Homelessness ...... 190W Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation...... 213W Neurology: Health Services...... 191W Rescue Services: Liverpool...... 213W NHS: ICT ...... 191W Roads: Closures ...... 214W NHS: Reorganisation...... 192W Traffic Regulation Orders...... 214W NHS: Standards...... 192W Ovarian Cancer...... 192W TREASURY ...... 173W Patients: Transport...... 193W Child Tax Credit ...... 173W Prescription Drugs...... 193W Departmental Consultants...... 173W Regulation ...... 194W Departmental Senior Civil Servants...... 173W Social Services...... 194W Income Tax ...... 174W Social Services: Disadvantaged ...... 201W Taxation: Loans ...... 175W Streptococcus: Pregnant Women...... 201W Welfare Tax Credits: Warrington ...... 175W Telemedicine ...... 202W Working Tax Credit: Warrington ...... 176W Col. No. Col. No. WALES...... 151W WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Remploy...... 151W Dilnot Report ...... 178W Employment: Disability ...... 178W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 205W Employment Schemes ...... 178W UN Security Council Resolution...... 205W Flexible Working...... 180W Housing Benefit ...... 181W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 176W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 181W Access to Work Programme: Interpreters...... 176W Maternity Pay ...... 182W Carer’s Allowance...... 176W Universal Credit...... 182W Children: Day Care ...... 177W Winter Fuel Payments...... 183W Departmental Ethnic Minority Staff...... 177W Work Capability Assessment...... 183W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 13 March 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 119] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

Hostage Rescue Operation (Nigeria) [Col. 141] Statement—(Mr Philip Hammond)

Football (Financial Transparency) [Col. 154] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Damian Collins)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [un-allotted half day] Health and Social Care Bill [Col. 159] Motion—(Andy Burnham) Amendment—(Andrew George)—on a Division, negatived Main Motion, on a Division, negatived

London Local Authorities Bill [Lords] [Col. 219] Resumption of adjourned debate on Third Reading Read the Third time and passed

Tax Credits [Col. 225] Motion—(Mr Newmark), on a Division, agreed to

Torphichen Sub-Post Office (Closure) [Col. 229] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Pay and Consultants (Public Sector) Hall [Col. 1WH] Work Experience [Col. 25WH] Investigation of Suicides [Col. 50WH] Secondary Ticketing [Col. 58WH] Work Capability Assessment [Col. 67WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 11WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 133W] [see index inside back page]