Houston Asian American Archive (HAAA) Chao Center for Asian Studies, Rice University

Interviewee: Maria Chan Interviewer: Ann Shi Date of Interview: 7/29/2020 Transcribed by: Ann Shi, Sonia He Edited by: Kelly Liao Audio Track Time: 1:18:28

Background: Maria Chan was born in Hong Kong to a businessman father and a homemaker mother. She has two brothers, and they grew up in the Mid-Levels in Hong Kong Island. She studied in MaryKnoll Sisters School, which was run by American nuns of Dominican order. Influenced by her favorite teacher in Geography, she went onto studying Geography and Geology in University of Hong Kong from 1960-63; and after that, obtained a Diploma of Education for teaching senior high school. During these times, she represented Hong Kong in the Uber Cup competition, which is the Women’s International Badminton Competition back then, which is equivalent to World Cup today, in three games: - 1956 Hong Kong vs. Malaya (now Malaysia) - 1959 Hong Kong vs. Malaya - 1962 Hong Kong vs. India In university, she continued to participate in Inter-Varsity competition against Singapore and Malaysia, and was the Sports Captain of Duchess of Kent Hall of Hong Kong University; she was also a member of the Legion of Mary.

After obtaining her BA degree and Diploma of Education in 1964, she taught for three years in St Paul’s Co-educational College as a senior high school geography teacher. She fondly spoke of how many students of hers back then still kept in touch and are friends with her till today. In 1967, she got married to the page boy at a wedding where she was the flower girl during their childhood, in London, Ontario, Canada. After marriage and the immigration, she became a homemaker devoted to her new family; her busy husband developed his career to become an internal medicine resident physician. The couple moved from London, Ontario to St. Louis, Missouri, to Nashville Tennessee, and finally, Houston, TX, where they’ve been living till now. They have one daughter and one son, both Ivy League graduates.

Setting: The interview was taken over the telephone during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Key: MC: Maria Chan AS: Ann Shi —: speech cuts off; abrupt stop …: speech trails off; pause Italics: emphasis (?): preceding word may not be accurate [Brackets]: actions (laughs, sighs, etc.)

Interview transcript:

AS: Today's July 29, 2020. My name is Ann Shi and I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. Here with us today is Maria Chan, who's originally from Hong Kong. And thank you so much, Ms. Chan, for letting us take your oral history interview.

MC: You're welcome.

1

AS: So to start, can you tell us when and where were you born?

MC: I was born in Hong Kong. Mm hmm.

AS: And what was like the favorite childhood memory of yours?

MC: My childhood memory... Just playing on the streets with marbles. I didn’t remember much about that. That was really young. [AS: Yeah.] Play with my brothers. Yeah.

AS: Great. How–how many siblings do you have?

MC: I have two brothers, one older brother, one younger brother.

AS: And are they both in–in the United States or they're still in Hong Kong?

MC: I—they are both in United States. One is a retired engineer in San Francisco area. And the other one is a professor at MIT.

AS: Oh, wow. That's very impressing. And what kind of neighborhood was your childhood, if you remember?

MC: We were, we were at mid-level Hong Kong on the mountain, we're at the Mid-Levels. So it's a quiet area. So we really had a good environment.

AS: I see. Do you mind asking me asking? What–what your parents' occupations were?

MC: Oh, wow, my–my father is a businessman. And my mother is a housewife.

AS: I see. And what was the, say, favorite game that you and your brothers play together?

MC: Oh, like I say. We played badminton. Yeah, we belonged to a club. And my parents also played. That's why we–we followed. so my older brother and I, and the younger brother, he played soccer. So, yeah, we participated. We were deeply involved in badminton.

AS: That's great. Yeah, I read your very impressing resume that you had like, yeah, very great level of achievement in badminton. Can you share a little bit about that?

MC: I started badminton when I was in the teens and I competed in the Hong Kong Badminton Association Competitions. So gradually I won the Trivia1 Cup, and then the Senior Cup. Because I'm tiny, I'm not tall. I participated mainly in doubles and mixed doubles. So like I got [the Hong Kong] championship. And then like, I got selected to represent Hong Kong in the Uber Cup, which is the all England ladies Cup. It is equivalent to the World Cup nowadays. And we played, I have participated in three World Cups competitions. One is in 1950...1952? No, 1956! One is in 1959. And the other time is 1962. ‘56 is Hong Kong against Malaysia; and then ‘59 is Hong Kong against Singapore, we went over there. And then 1962 was vs. India.

AS: Wow. That's amazing. Do you still get excited when you remember those experiences being, yeah, a competitive athlete?

1 The interviewee indicates this should be the Junior Cup instead.

2

MC: Um, I enjoyed it until the pressure was too great. [AS: Hmm.] So when I went to college when I went to university, I only, only play in the university. I only play singles there because there was not too much competition there. So it was just for fun. But because of too much pressure, and my parents are like, my stage parents, they analyze every game after I came back, and it became too much pressure for me, so I dropped it. Yeah.

AS: I see. Yeah, I can definitely understand. So back in the day when you were in school, what's your favorite subject?

MC: Oh, geography. That's why I went to... especially I love the teacher. I don't know this is a good reason to major in it but I really love the teacher.

AS: I see. And which junior high and high school did you go to?

MC: Ah junior... Elementary, I went to a school named Ying Wa Girls School. All girls. And then in high school I went to Maryknoll Sisters School, which is an American nun school, Dominican nun from New York, run by them.

AS: I see. Were they religious schools?

MC: Yes, yeah. Catholic. Yeah. And yeah, so I got–I got baptized. Yeah. And I got my name there because I don't have an American name. So they cannot say my Chinese name. So they let me choose— Maria, Marie, Mary. Yeah, so, I chose Maria. [AS: Yeah. Wow. And—] [I was baptized there too.]

AS: Yeah, I forgot to ask, what is your Chinese name? [MC: Yuen Yue.] Does it have, like a meaning behind the name?

MC: I think beautiful, beautiful jade or something I... yeah, something beautiful. I don't know what it is.

AS: So do you still write and speak Cantonese?

MC: Yes, I do. Writing I tend to forget now. Nowadays we don't write, we just call. Yeah, of course I read all of them, but sometimes I forget how to write the words. And I understand some Mandarin.

AS: That's great. [MC: Yeah.] So in your college experience in University of Hong Kong, what kind of clubs or activities, or your memorable experiences you had?

MC: Oh, well, of course I joined the badminton club. And also I was the sports captain of Duchess of Kent Hall, which is a dorm. And then I also joined the Legion of Mary, which is a Catholic prayer, prayer group and visitation too.

AS: That's great. And did you immediately move to the US after you graduated? Or did you start a career in Hong Kong as well?

MC: No, I taught school for three years. And then, and then I moved to Canada. I was going to pursue my Masters in town planning in University of Toronto, where I was supposed to be a, a teaching assistant. [AS: Right.] And then my–my husband was in London, Ontario. So then I thought about it. I said, "Well, it's difficult running between two cities." So I quit my master's degree and went to London after I married.

AS: Great. And did you and your husband meet in Hong Kong?

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MC: Yes. Actually, a long story. We met when we were kids. We were... he was a page boy and I was a flower girl in a wedding. [AS: Oh, wow. That was so... so cute.] Yeah. And then later on that he was in the same school, Jesuit School with my younger brother. So he was my younger brother's godfather. So when we were in college, I met him again in Legion of Mary. He also belonged to Legion of Mary. So we, we met again.

AS: That's great. So your parents know each other's parents. [MC: Yeah.] I see. [MC: Yeah.] Great. And so after you moved to London, Ontario first, what did you do? And what was the experiences like first moving to a different country and being away from like parents and all the familiarity?

MC: Okay, I went to London and then and then I said, “Okay, I'll find myself a job,” and I worked in the library temporarily, doing a, tracing lost books, and stacked some books. And then, I think because Hong Kong is British, so there's not too much cultural shock and we are used to English but with the housework and everything. I never do housework. I have to learn how to cook, and finance and everything 'cause everything is new to me. And I have to learn driving later on.

AS: Do you still remember your daily routines?

MC: Over there?

AS: Yeah. Like what was the weather like, like, or things that—

MC: Oh in London, Ontario? [AS: Yeah.] Oh, it was in a, that city is [in] a snow belt. So in the winter, it's very, very cold. This is one part I'm not used to. And then we didn't have a car. There he was...my husband was an intern. We had no car, and really rely on friend's car and go shopping. So it's really inconvenient. Yeah, so he came home every other day. At first I didn't know how to cook. He cooked for me for a whole year. I really didn't know how to cook. And then I learned gradually. Yeah.

AS: That's great. And what kind of job did he had first when he was an intern? [MC: What kind of job?] Yeah. [MC: Did I have?] Did your husband have? [MC: Uh...] If you remember.

MC: In Hong Kong?

AS: In... when you guys first moved to London, Ontario,

MC: He was an intern. He started, repeating his intern [AS: Yeah.] in Canada.

AS: Okay.

MC: Yeah. Intern in Medicine. I'm sorry.

AS: I see, got it. Yeah. And yeah, must be—Next, I was just wondering what, like, did you have any friends? Did you start meeting people when you work at the library?

MC: Yeah. I have friends from Hong Kong, who were colleagues in high school, I taught high school. So they were there and they gave us lots of advice. So we have friends, they, they were doing Ph.D. there and we had fun during the weekend. Yeah, it was a lot of fun because to me, when I first come over, I'm very excited. I want to learn new things. And yeah, everything is new to me. And also, I guess a little bit of...Well in Canada, we'll talk about that when we are in America because the terms are different. Like the truck, it's a...they call it "lorry" over there, torch they call it fla—flash, and then they call chips—mainly

4 I'd like potato chip. The thing is, it's those chips that you have for the hamburger chips. It's not potato chips. Don't we call them—when you say chips, I didn't think of potato chips. [AS: Yeah.] Yeah. So all those terms, the elevator, and then we call it “lift” in England. So all these term we have to adjust.

AS: Yeah. So you started speaking English back in school like junior and early?

MC: Yeah. Well, starting from elementary school and then of course Maryknolls is American. Then back to University of Hong Kong is British, the–the accent. I mean, the people, the teachers. And then back in London is British accent; and then America is American accent. So but it's all the same. And then like the school I taught in high school, I taught in English. So, but the situation is funny. We can talk in English, I can teach a... I can—I could teach a lesson in English. But after school, we all speak Chinese. [AS: Right.] Yeah, it's different.

AS: That's great. Do you remember what kind of, did you have any culture shock?

MC: Ah, when I come to America, yes. Because in–in my college literature we studied Shakespeare, Jane Austen, and the Bronte sisters. And when I first came to America, I said I would acquaint myself with some American literature. And I guess I got the wrong book. I got Catcher in the Rye, which is a culture shock to me. They use a lot of profanity words, dirty words. So I say, “Is this American literature?” But this is a famous one, all the students have to study that. But probably if I read now, I don't feel anything at all. I'm desensitized.

AS: I guess in the school system. It's pretty... it's a big taboo, right?

MC: Yeah, right. Right. But... But then later on, I read the other American writers like Hemingway and you know, Michener, they don't have these. I think this one is special. This one is, I don't know. Catcher in the Rye is special.

AS: Cool. And in the library, were you able to, like make friends or did you also make friends mostly outside of the library?

MC: Outside where?

AS: Outside of the library or the work environment?

MC: Oh, it's only for one year. [AS: Yeah, I see.] Yeah, yeah, I make one or two friends, but it's just one year and then we move to- And then I got pregnant. And then I moved to St. Louis. So I make, I only make two or three friends.

AS: Yeah, that's great. So that's your first child. [MC: Pardon?] So that's your first child that you were pregnant with, your daughter, right?

MC: Yes, yes. In St. Louis. Yeah, she was born in St. Louis.

AS: I see. And can you tell us a little bit about your move to St. Louis, like did you experience another shock of culture impacts?

MC: Not much by then. You know? I am, I'm pretty used to the American culture. Yeah, my, my, my husband had to go to St. Louis for his residency. So I was busy and attempting, adapting to my pregnancy and all the surrounding, get grocery and then [to] my life. Learn how to drive. So just have to learn to be independent without him.

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AS: That's great. Yeah. And when did your second child arrived?

MC: That's... the first one was born in 1968. The second was 1990. [AS: Oh, wow.] Yeah, very close. So I really had nice neighbors. One of the guy who was doing his masters there was my neighbor, he had to take me to my gynecologist. Not my husband, my husband didn’t have time. So the neighbors are really nice, some helped babysitting my older daughter. So they were very nice.

AS: I see. Sorry. You said your daughter was born in 1968. And your son was born in 1990?

MC: Yes,

AS: That was 20... I mean, 32 years apart.

MC: Yeah, they are very close. Both in diapers.

AS: I mean, the year they were born, they had a big year, age gap. You said your son was born in 1990?

MC: They have a big... No?

AS: Like a big age gap.

MC: 1968 in November. The other is 1990 in April. It's very close.

AS: Oh, but there's 32 years apart. No?

MC: No! What do you mean?

AS: Yes, your son was born in 1990?

MC: I'm sorry. 1970... 1970.

AS: Oh, okay, Got it. I see two years apart. [MC: Yes. Yeah.] Okay. No problem. [MC: I'm sorry.] Great. So they both were born in St. Louis. [MC: Ah, yeah.] Great. And did you start—I saw on your consent form that you are, you would identify yourself as a homemaker. Did you start becoming a homemaker since you moved to St. Louis?

MC: Yes. By that time, I was pretty much adjusted. Not a very good cook, but at least a cook.

AS: That's great. And how was ...? How was it like being like, home with two children when your husband was busy at work? I guess because...

MC: It's tiring. Because both of them were so young. So, what, I hardly had any sleep at all? [AS: Wow.] Yeah.

AS: Can you share some memories about that?

MC: Oh, because once my son was sleeping. I think I had better sleep. And then I–I just put a mattress in a room with nothing in the room, and close the door and put some toys and let my daughter just play around me. [AS: I see.] By then I can, I could take some sleep. [AS: Wow.] So this is. Yeah, this is my way of getting some sleep in the daytime.

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AS: And what what's your husband's career like back then? Was he like a doctor?

MC: Yeah, he [was] a resident in internal medicine. [AS: I see.] Yeah, we were in St. Louis for four years, he get his Biochemistry research for two years. Two years of residency. Yeah.

AS: And I guess he has very little time to sleep as well, given his career must be very occupying.

MC: Yeah. That's why, you know, I had a hard time when I had to be because all his friends say, "Don't take–don't take your vacation.” Because so he didn't take his vacation. So I came home and, you know, after–after birth, I came home all by myself. And then had to take care of the, to take care of the new baby. Yeah, it's difficult.

AS: Wow. Do your son and daughter now live in the US as well?

MC: Yes, my daughter is in San Jose. She is a doctor, teaching residency in Stanford [and] in San Jose, Santa Clara Valley Hospital. So right now, you know, she's on the frontline with the COVID, because intern–internal medicine. And then my son is a pediatrician in Andover, Massachusetts. Yeah, [AS: That's great.] Yeah. I have six grandchildren, three from each. Yeah.

AS: Wow. Sounds very...Yeah, amazing. And I saw that in 1972, you moved again to Nashville, Tennessee, when they were also pretty little.

MC: Um, to Nashville, right? Yeah. Nashville was only for eight months because he went to Vanderbilt, I think. Yeah, yeah. And then he found out his boss was going to move to Baylor Houston. So after eight months and we moved with him, so naturally, I'm a little bit miserable because I like big cities because I'm from Hong Kong. And it is very pretty city wise. Very quiet. And the nice people, are very nice, Southern people very friendly, but I don't have anywhere to go. So, so I was coming from Hong Kong. I like big cities. [AS: Yeah.] So I'm happy. I'm happy in Houston.

AS: That's great. I guess in 1972 in Nashville is still like the scene of country music and all the club scene.

MC: Yeah. Grand Ole Opry, Opry. Grand Ole Opry. Yeah, right. Well, I don't know how to appreciate country music at that time. Because it was not that popular in Hong Kong, I only know the oldies but not the country music. Now I'm more and more acquainted with it. Yeah.

AS: And so after that you moved here to Houston. And you said you liked it. What do you like about Houston most?

MC: First of all, is the cost of living is low. And they have, I'm surprised that all the arts are very good. You know, like a symphony, opera, the museum. They are really inexpensive and they are really good. You know, like, world class quality. So we join every single one of them. Yeah. Right. So then there's lots and lots of ethnic food. Many different types. And then, of course, Chinese restaurant has a lot of various type of ethnic Chinese food. But besides that, different types of food from different countries, we like to try them with friends.

AS: So, do you still cook after you move to Houston or you've been going out?

MC: Oh, yes, no, no, no, no, I cook; once or twice a week and we go out. Yeah, I learned some good recipes. But still, I have lots of cookbooks, but I don't have, don't use them. Yeah, I can cook pretty well

7 nowadays but not, not a lot of dishes. [AS: Mm hmm.] Just some, some good dishes. That's all. Yeah, yeah.

AS: And how about your favorite or your kids’ favorite dish that you can share with us about? Like, what, what do your children come home to, like, to your cooking?

MC: Oh, they love chicken. They like stir fried chicken. And they like steam fish. [AS: Mm hmm.] Yeah. And then they like crab. [AS: Mm hmm.] Yeah. So various things.

AS: No, that's great. And yeah, if you're interested, we have a cookbook project as well.

MC: Yes, I was in it. I gave a recipe. [AS: Oh wow. That's amazing. Thank you.] Yeah, yeah.

AS: And you mentioned the vibrant art scene here in Houston, and very affordable. And I saw that you are very active in the like Museum of Fine Arts. And you were, you've been a docent. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

MC: Yeah, I–I have taken some classes. They're excellent classes, their Impressionism, some Chinese art [courses]. They have excellent courses. And then once, and I like to go to museums all over the world. My husband traveled around the world. So everywhere I collect museum books and things like that, I'm very interested. So I said, "Well, let me try to be a docent in Museum of Fine Arts." So I was interviewed and admitted, and then was trained one time, and then they asked, they asked us, they say, "If you want to be continue, you need to be at docent, once a week, you know, to, to explain to the children or any visitors, you know, at least one day a week. And if you can’t do it, you have to find a substitute." But then at that time I travel all the time. So I don't know anybody who can substitute me and then it’s a favor constantly you ask people to substitute. So I said I couldn't do it. So I quit. But if I stay on, I will learn a lot. They train every Monday. They train the docents. Yeah.

AS: Yeah, that's great. One of our volunteers at the Houston Asian American Archive, is also a docent at the Bayou Bend. I remember.

MC: And, now I don't volunteer anymore. Sometimes I don't have enough sleep, you know, sometimes I cannot have enough sleep and I cannot commit a certain day if I don't feel well. I wish I–I wish I could, I'd like to volunteer in the hospital too. But again, you know, I cannot do that now.

AS: Yeah, so after I guess your son and daughter went to college, you probably had a bit of free time for yourself. Yeah, like what, what hobbies or what kind of activities do you do after ...

MC: Oh, I have a lot a lot a lot. Okay, first of all, I–I took cooking lessons from Central Market. They have different chefs, you know, from England from everywhere. They have different chefs. And then I also took some cooking [lessons] in the French [cooking] school. And then I took financial and music classes from Rice University in the evening. You know, how to appreciate symphony and you know how to invest and all that courses. And then I also took a flower arrangement from Ikebana. And then I also buy a lot of tapes called "A Great Course". They have various topics like the beginning of the earth, you know, like ageing, how to invest, how to enjoy symphony, how to appreciate art. So I like to watch them. And then lately, I pick up piano lessons. So I have a lot of fun.

AS: That's great. That's wonderful to hear that. And what is your favorite composer for...?

8 MC: My favorite composer. I like Tschaikowsky. And I like Mozart. And... what was the name, I forgot that one. It's a romantic one. It'll come back to me. Yeah. [AS: Chopin?] Chopin I like too. No, that one is a romantic one. Um.. I forget, it'll come back. Yeah, it’ll come back to me.

AS: I'm also just wondering as, I guess, questions for a lot of female peers, as well. As a homemaker, how do you embrace your femininity? [MC: How do I what?] How do you embrace your femininity with what you do at home? Like taking care of husband and making sure the kids are taken care of, and they go to school and they have, they come home to very...Yeah, a well managed home.

MC: First, I really miss my teaching. Oh, when I, when I went–went home and went back to Hong Kong, I see the students lined up. And then I'm very sad. [AS: Yeah.] Yeah. And, and, and of course, I put all my effort in raising my kids because my husband is not there. I practically have to do everything. For example, my–my son was in Boy Scout. [AS: Cool.] And when I went to the meeting with him, everybody was a daddy. [AS: I see.] And I was the–I was the only woman. So and then we had to work for badges for the Scout. And I didn't do it for him. Poor thing he just have nothing on the sleeves. [AS: Oh wow.] So I said, I said let's quit, because my husband was not there with him to do the badge. But then they are in soccer, they are in swimming; they are in piano. So I am the—chauffeuring around. Yeah. And also because of my husband's position, I had to do a lot of things for him, for Baylor. Like at Christmas, I had to do Christmas party for the division, the people, and then I had to do a party for his lab. Then also at the—and sometimes people leave and then I have to do farewell party; I have to do wedding shower, welcome party. So I was pretty [busy]. Yeah, now he's retired. I was pretty busy at that time, yeah.

AS: That’s great.

MC: And then of course, I travel a lot which is—which is, I like—I like traveling. I'm usually study up. I studied really well, you know, how to go and what station, when to eat, where to eat. So I really enjoy it.

AS: That's wonderful. And I'm sure your husband appreciate a lot of the work—the amount of work you put in to his career as well. And the family.

MC: I hope so. But now he's retired, and we can travel. Usually when he travels, and when he gives a talk and I'm going out to walk around by myself and enjoy myself. So he called it sometimes, he called it a "work-shop". And he tell people, "I work and my wife shop. That's why it's called work-shop." [AS: I see.] Yeah. Yeah, but now the travel is not to the places where he used to lecture, to some exotic places like Morocco, Iceland, where he wouldn't go at that time for lecture. Yeah. So he used, he used to go to Europe, eight times, eight times a year. So, so I didn't travel until my son went to college, then I start traveling with him.

AS: I see. [MC: Mm hmm.] So what were like the key moments that you remember in your children's upbringing that you could share with us? For example, he—like they went from probably elementary school to like secondary school and then to college. Like what kind of steps of the way that you're there to help them grow up in their experiences? Today... [MC: I can't hear your question. What, what is what?] What are the key moments in your children's development that you felt that it's like very memorable that you would like to share with us?

MC: Oh, oh. Oh, the moment is when they were young, and went to Catholic school elementary school, I was a room mother. So, so I did a lot for them, cook, bake cake, cupcakes and things like that. But when they're older, they don't want me around. You know, they feel ashamed when the mother is hanging around. And then, of course, they went on to high school. And then my daughter plays piano very well. And she won the second in the Houston(?) Concerto. [AS: Wow.] Yeah. And he—she got to play with

9 Hous-Houston, Houston University here. The group. She performed there with them. So that is the highlight.

And then another moment is when they went to college. When my, when my daughter went to college, then she was the one to cry. You know, we were—she went to Harvard and we were outside, living outside. And she called us—she lined up and call us at 12—12 o'clock. And cry, and I just say, "What are you doing? You go back to sleep." I should have talked to her. And then, and then she will—she adjusted in one week. And then we don't hear from her. And then my son now. When he went to Cornell, he cried and we just turned and we started crying too. But I think the children adjusted very well, yeah. And so, yeah, we have our moments ups and downs. But I am the bad guy. My husband is never home. So I was the one to discipline them.

AS: Right. [MC: Yeah.] Can you share with us some of the like the moments that you had to discipline but... discipline them but...?

MC: Ah, discipline them. My son doesn't like to study. So, so I make him stay, stay in his room, take away all the jam boxes and everything. So I thought this will work. And later, I went in, he was sitting there, he was very good, sitting there, daydreaming. [AS: Daydreaming? Like?] Yeah, he was very good. I took away all of his entertainment. So I said you'd better study. He would, he would sit and sleep and daydreaming. [AS: Wow, that's funny.] And then like, my son is very easy to teach. He won't argue with you. But he will do the opposite. You know, you don't know. He won't argue with you. My daughter is the one who will argue with you. And then he won't do—she won't do it. She will, she will win the argument. So we have a lot of argument at that time. Yeah.

AS: I see. I guess that's called passive aggressive?

MC: I don't know. No, I don't think so. She just want to argue but if she didn't win the argument, she won't do it. My son won't, won't argue with you. He would do it at the back anyway. So I don't know which is better. Luckily they end up really well, you know? Both kids.

AS: Yeah. So you must be proud. You and your husband must be very proud of them.

MC: Yeah, we are very proud of them. Yeah, yeah.

AS: Did you think your experience in teachers’ training helped with your upbringing? I mean, your—their upbringing in your—

MC: In some way. Yes. But American education is a little bit different from Hong Kong education. American education is more round—all rounded. Yeah. Hong Kong you just study, study, study. And the American you have to go out and play sports and things like that. The only regret. My only regret is not to teach them finance. They don't know how to handle money. I should let them handle money when they are younger. Yeah.

AS: So I guess one of this, like, when their spouses would be good at money, then that will also solve the problem, right?

MC: Yeah, well, at least they know some basics. But again, I didn't know. I have to learn it myself. Yeah. Gradually, I just started learning about 15 years ago. But by then, I don't have any—I didn't have any, at that time, I didn't [have] money to manage anyway. All the money goes to the children's education and college, you know. But since they left and I have to, I learned, I took a lot of courses. Yeah, I listened to the, you know, to TV, all those MSNBC business hours and things like that, so I learned quite a lot.

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AS: That's great. So you're very motivated to learn new things, even though you're at home?

MC: Yeah, I wish I have more time and energy. I just don't have it. But I really enjoy my piano lessons. My teacher is really good. She's from Rice. And she knows. I say I don't want to play classics because it's too hard for my age. I just want to play pop. She just let me get away with murder. She'll do whatever. She is so nice so I really enjoyed my piano. [AS: That's great.] Yeah.

AS: What kind of pop songs do you play?

MC: Oh, all these oldies. [AS: Like Broadway?] No, the first song is that, you know it, "The moon represent my heart." 月亮代表我的心. [AS: Oh right right!] Yeah, and then and the other one "Edelweiss," and then the other one is "One day when we were young," that is not your age. [AS: Oh, I know that song.] You know that?

AS: Yeah, 'cause I'm a kind of amateur singer. I sang that song before too.

MC: Yeah yeah yeah yeah, so those popular music.

AS: Yeah that's cool. Great. And in your... You said your daughter plays the piano. Do you kind of study? I mean you learn it with her. Do or do you play after—?

MC: No. After she was gone. I just pick up two years ago. [AS: Yeah.] Yeah, yeah, but her son is very good. He compete and then [unintelligible] he won the position to play at Carnegie Hall. Too bad because of the COVID, we could not go. [AS: Oh, wow.] Yeah, yeah so it's, so he get the talent from the mother I think.

AS: That's wonderful. Are you proud for the contribution you've made for your family as a homemaker? [MC: What do you say?] Are you proud of your achievements to your family as a homemaker?

MC: Ah, no. [AS: Oh, why not?] I wish I would [be] appreciate—I could be appreciated MORE. [AS: Oh I see.] [Both laugh.] I know they appreciate it. They don't say it. [AS: Yeah, I'm sure.] Yeah. So but–but my husband did, really did appreciate me for my help because he really could not help the family you know.

MC: Yes, yeah that's one part I leave out about my teaching in, in high school. I really had a very good high school, excellent, the top ones in Hong Kong [AS: Wow.] and the students—the students were very bright, I don't, you don't even have to teach. They really excel, but I—the children that—and me are really good friends. So it stay until today, you know, sometimes they visit me and I visit them and some I don't eve—I even go to Europe with them. So I really feel fulfilled with–with my students.

AS: Is there any tips on how you get to be so close to the students?

MC: Well, I think because I graduated and then taught them senior high. It's not much age difference. And I treat them—I treated them like a friend. And I was their class teacher. And then I think the children like to, like, young teachers, do you think so? Yeah, [AS: Yeah.] Yeah, they like, yeah, young teachers. So So, you know, they mail me their photos and they email me, they come and visit me. So it was really, I really miss my teaching.

11 AS: That's great. So you taught geography, right?

MC: Yeah, I taught geography because I majored in geography and geology. Yeah.

AS: I see, what was your kind of aspired job when you're studying geography back then?

MC: Well, in Hong Kong, there's no other choice. You know, except teaching. That's why I was planning to go to Canada to take town planning. [AS: I see.] So I guess you can do other administration [work] in education, [executive] administration, and all that. Yeah.

AS: Great. Do you still remember your favorite student's name?

MC: Oh, sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Some of them email me, they treat me like a mother when I—Mother's Day and they “Happy Mother's Day” and things like that. I still call long distance and talk to them, they call me, tell them “Boys and girls.”

AS: It's really sweet. You are like, yeah, a friend and then a godmother to the students.

MC: Yeah, but the thing is the student over there is different from teaching their children. [AS: Mm hmm.] They were so obedient. [Both laugh] In Hong Kong, they were very very obedient. [AS: Right.] But in the United States you cannot do that. Yeah, just like you know, my daughter she—around 13 or 14 all of her friends drop off—drop out of piano, and she wanted to drop out. So I said, "No. You don't-you don't drop out." And she said "You have tied them up." So, but luckily I insisted, and she enjoyed it later on. Yeah, it's different, it's different way of teaching here. You have to reason with them here. Over there, you just say and then they do it.

AS: Yep. Very different mindset.

MC: No, it's good. It's good to let them reason out, but I'm just not used to it. Now, I'm used to it. [AS: I see.] So now I let my grandchildren, grandchildren do whatever they want. I don't say anything. [laughs]

AS: [laughs] What do you think is the better way? Like the–I guess the carrot and the stick? Which do you think works better in children of all ages?

MC: I think carrots. [AS: Carrots. Yeah. [laughs]] Yeah, but I didn't think about that. I think at that time, it was stick. [Both laugh] Yeah.

AS: Right. What's your view on like, kind of physical punishment for kids? [MC: What? Physical—] Physical parents—like beating kids? Do you–do you know, like, [MC: Physical what?] physical punishment for the kids. Like a lot of Asian parents. I felt like...

MC: I didn't hit them. I only hit my son once, now it was—tell you one funny story. He's (interviewee’s son) a pediatrician, and the parents often ask him, "How, how do you—teach me how do you discipline kids?" And he said, "Get one pair of chopsticks." [AS: Oh.] That's how my mother did it to me. I say "I only use my chopsticks on your hand once because when I hit him, my hand bruised, so I used a chopstick and hit him—now he told everybody he use chopsticks.

AS: I see.

MC: Yeah, but I don't hit them much. Yeah.

12 AS: When you grew up, did you experience any like when your–your parents didn't hit you when you were growing up?

MC: No, no, no, we were so obedient. You don't need any discipline. Yeah.

AS: Great. Do you feel that you're...you mentioned your mother was also a homemaker. Did she and the kind of her relationship with your father also influenced the way that you become a homemaker and the relationship with your husband?

MC: We are different because at home he doesn't—she doesn't cook [AS: I see.] we have, we have one servant cooking and, and three servants taking each—taking care of each child. So that's why I don't know I don't I don't even know how to cook, and she doesn't cook either. She didn't cook either. So... so it's different.

AS: I see. Do you think cooking as a mother, like changes the dynamic with you and your children like your children having their mother's cooking, does that kind of bring them closer as a family?

MC: Ah, now she—my daughter's beginning, is beginning to, to learn from Chinese cooking, but I think at first they like baking, you know, the American children, when they first learn how to cook, they like to bake. Her baking is very good, and–and now she's very quick, she excelled me. [AS: Mmm.] Yeah, I mean not Chinese recipe but American recipe. [AS: Mmm.] He’s a good cook but—and they do it so, so fast. You know I have to learn from them. I say, "Oh, teach me some quick cooking." And my son also learns how to cook very fast. And one thing I'm surprised, nowadays all the men share part of the cooking, not just the wife, the husband cook too.

AS: Yeah definitely, the society's kind of presumption in the role in the family is changing a lot.

MC: Right. Right. Right. I think it's fair. Depends on who is busier. You know? So, it was so different from our time. [AS: Yeah. Definitely.] For me, I have no choice because my husband's never home. But now we're, after he retire, he takes over part of the cooking too. Simple, simple cooking.

AS: That's great.

MC: Yeah. [Both laugh]

AS: I guess to shift gears a little bit towards our identity as Asian Americans in the US. Have you kind of experienced kind of different treatment of you and your children, say, when they were in school, given given they're Asians in a kind of a society that's predominantly white?

MC: Ah, no major, no major incidents, but I guess as Asian, they have to work harder to make themselves known, you know, to, like, you know, like in college, you have to do extra well to get in. [AS: I see.] Yeah, like, I think is sort of discrimination too because like to go, for example to go to a certain college, they give priorities to the blacks, and Hispanics, you know, not priority but some help. And then the Chinese have to compete with the Jewish, the Caucasians. But yet, they have a quota in some colleges to only admit maybe 10%, 15% Asian. So I think this is type of—one type of discrimination. I don't know whether you, how to call it.

AS: Yeah, definitely. I think Harvard was sued one year for...

MC: Yeah. Yeah, they don't admit it, but they don't say it, but there is a certain quota. So this is not quite right. You know, it should be equal competition. But that's why I say, as Asian, you have to work extra

13 hard. And being a Chinese American, one thing I'm really really, I remind myself all the time. I sort of represent Chinese myself, you know, when I go out, so I try to be extra polite. Because somehow I feel that I represent Chinese. People look at me, "Oh, she's Chinese." So I try to put my better foot forward. Because I represent a country.

AS: That's great. And do you instill that value in your son and daughter as well?

MC: Ah, I don't think, I don't think they think themselves as Chinese anymore. They are totally assimilated. When I say "Oh, Chinese." She said, "Mom, I'm American." So I think they are totally assimilated.

AS: So they must have worked extra, extra hard to get into Harvard and Cornell.

MC: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they do. Yeah. Work out lucky too. So, yeah. So I have no complaints.

AS: Do you have any advice for I guess other parents like yourself to kind of educate their children and like, send them very good education and schools?

MC: Well, even if they don't—I feel that even if they don't go to Harvard, U of H, UT, all these—if you you become to the top student, you can go anywhere. It doesn't have to be Harvard. You do well, in that in school, in the university. I see lots of people are doing well. So yeah.

AS: Yeah, definitely a more and more I guess welcomed idea as well that not just Ivy League schools decide the success of children.

MC: Yeah, yeah, you just do well, do excellent well in college. [AS: Yeah.] Of course, being in Harvard you have the name, you have the edge, but I've seen lots of successful people from smaller school. And also, EQ is very important too. [AS: Yeah.] Yeah.

AS: How do you educate your children with EQ?

MC: I don't know, I never thought about—I never thought it. Yeah, well, I just I just take them to different places, expose them to different things, you know, join different activities. So, yeah. My son went to Strake Jesuit and that was a good education. Yeah, the Jesuit taught him very well. And my daughter went to Bellaire, which is a big school, you have to fend for yourself.

AS: Have you heard of them speaking about any type of difficulty to assimilate given they're Asian kids?

MC: No, my–my only complaint, my daughter when she was in high school, she said "Oh the Chinese are so competitive." [Both laugh.] She said "All my friends are so competitive." That's her only complaint.

AS: I see. Great. Um and next to shift gears a little bit, we're going to ask some questions for the special collection on COVID-19 and how it impacted your life. So to start, how do you find this pandemic impacted your life?

MC: Oh, it's a lot because I like to go out and meet my friends. I like to travel. This-this kills me. I like to travel, I want to visit my children and my grandchildren. So this affect me a lot. And then I get very bored. And now I find out that if I set a routine, that will be better. That will make the days go faster and more satisfactory. But, and I find out that days go by so quickly. And my daughter told me, “This is prisoner mentality.” You know, the prisoner were confined. And they find that they compact the time; they find out—they find that the days go by so quickly. So I found out the same thing. Yeah. We tried to

14 go out for a walk. Now the weather is too hot. We cannot walk, and then maybe in the evening and then we–we go, we go to the pool to swim. And then the bad thing is to watch television. Nothing to do, watching the television. We like to watch all the old–old movies, oldies, and–and also we don't have cleaning help, so we have to do the cleaning ourselves. And then we do the curbside grocery shopping and every now and then, once a week, I went for a takeout for food. Takeout for food. That's about it. But we try to read. I thought this would be the end. But then apparently there's no end to the tunnel now. So probably [we] will be confined at least two or three more months. If it doesn't occur again, the second wave. [AS: Mmm.] Yeah.

AS: What do you think is like the kind of different mindsets of, say the Asian countries who have a little bit more collective mindset than the Americans who have a moral kind of individualistic and kind of free, like they're very protective to their rights and freedom in this?

MC: I can't hear you. I can't hear—your voice broke out. I can't hear you.

AS: Oh, sorry. Yeah, I was just saying to compare, would you mind sharing your views about the Asian population having a bit more collective mindset than the–the Americans having a more individualistic mindset and very protective towards individual freedom?

MC: Um, yes, I think the Asians are more—some, like, they follow the rules more, and the Americans thinks that is freedom. Yes, it's your freedom, but you are hurting other people. If you don't hurt other people, you just don't—if you don't spread it, you know, to other people, that's fine. But but if you don't wear masks, you–you–you are, you are hurting other people, then it shouldn't be—you shouldn't be like that. That's what I think. That's why you know, Vancouver with all the Asians and like Hong Kong, they can, they can control the COVID easier. Yeah, if only people think, not just think of themself, but affecting other people. Then if, if they can just hunker down for two weeks and it will get a lot better, I think.

AS: Yeah, we've still seen so many protests against mask wearing.

MC: I know. And then it's and all these political conferences, they're shoulder to shoulder, so I don't know how it goes from now on.

AS: Yeah, definitely. Um, so how has the pandemic changed the relationship between you and your loved one since that we are kind of locked down together?

MC: Yeah. Well, I'm surprised my daughter calls every night. [AS: Oh, nice.] Which is good. And then my son even, my son usually doesn't call that much. But he calls every three days, which is good too. So we are sort of closer. Yeah. And for me and my husband, we just look into each other's eyes. [Both laugh.] Nothing to do. [AS: Wow.] But that we need...We—I tell him we need separate activities. You know, sometimes I say, "Why don't go out and walk, it's too hot for me. You do it by yourself." You know, we need to do separate, separate things. We don't have to do things together. We watch TV together already. So, yeah, but I'm, I'm hoping that one of these days we can travel again.

AS: That's great. Yeah, we're looking forward to that too. And just to, to do you mind sharing what is your like daily routine that you would take during this pandemic?

MC: Um, we–we are getting spoiled. We watched TV until 12 o'clock, we shouldn’t, we usually sleep around 10 or 10:30, we watch until 12, and then we got up at 9 or 9:30 and then breakfast, and then each check, check this, check the email, I check the stock market, and then then it is noon time, for lunch. And then we read. He reads, and I'm trying to throw a lot—throw away a lot of my junk at home. This is a

15 good time to clean house. So I have done that and then then it's time to cook dinner. Sometimes I watch Chinese soap opera around noon time; my husband doesn't watch it. So I watch it by myself. At night, I always spend time with him to watch American movies. Yeah. Time goes by fast but I don't know how much I can do. It could be half a more year, I'll go crazy. [Both laugh] [AS: Yeah.] Yeah, I need to do something. I think cleaning is very good. It clears your mind and you feel good throwing away things.

AS: Great. And I was just wondering, with the technology being more kind of taking over our lives, especially during this pandemic, and we were trying to figure out Zoom the other day and you mentioned that you're gonna meet friends over Zoom. How do you—has this pandemic help you learn more technology?

MC: Oh, no. [AS: No. Okay.] [Both laugh.] I'm very bad at technology. [AS: I see.] Yeah, I Zoom once a week, I Zoom with 10 different friends all together, but they they hook up everything and all we do is just to press. [AS: Mmm.] So at least we get to see our friends, ten friends together and we talk for two hours. [AS: Mmm.] And then I FaceTime with my grandkids, so that's about it. And then yeah, we call long distance with friends and things like that. I tend to call–call friends more. Those friends who I haven't contacted for a long time. [AS: Mmm.] So now I recollect with them—connect with them. Yeah, yeah, that is what the, what I do in the pandemic, get–get more email with friends. Call them more.

AS: That's great. Yeah. And next, I was just wondering on a positive note, what's the first thing you would do after we get out of this lockdown and when we have all the vaccines and the lockdown is over?

MC: Oh, first thing is to go over to visit my grandchildren. I just miss them so much. [AS: Yeah.] Because my daughter wants us to go over I say, "No, it's too soon." By August, I say, "I don't I don't want to ride on the plane." You know, even [if] we get through the plane, we don't eat, we don't drink, we go to the toilet. But still even we get through that, when we go there she works in a hospital. Maybe she is infected I don't know. I say, "To you, if you get it, you might get sick. For us, that means death." You know for us old people. So I say "I can't I can't come." She says, "Otherwise you won't see us for a whole year.' I say "What can I do?" So the first thing is I'm going to visit them. Then I want to go–go to, go to trips. We were going to Egypt, and then we cancelled in January. [AS: Oh, oh. I see.] So we had to cancel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I hope by then, I don't know Egypt is clear or not. Even if we are willing to go, they may not allow Americans to go.

AS: Yeah. Wow, great, I didn't think of that.

MC: And I would like to go back to Hong Kong. I still—my mother—my father still living, 107. I haven't seen him since last May. [AS: Mmm.] Oh, no, no, I haven't seen him... No, last November. So I can't go back now because I will be quarantined for 14 days and come back more 14 days. So, yeah.

AS: I see. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I was just wondering, did you, do you visit Hong Kong frequently or do you still feel close and connected with the city?

MC: Yes, because my, my father still living. I go there once a year. and–and yeah, I feel very nostalgic. Like I say when I first come, I'm like, "Oh, I'm so excited with new culture,” and–and–and gradually when I get older, I feel very nostalgic. I want to learn more more about Chinese things, Chinese cooking, and my husband like—and I like to walk around Hong Kong by ourselves, all by walking, just to see the culture. This is when we were young, we didn't care. And now we are very nostalgic. Yeah. [AS: That's great. Um...] Yeah. And every time we leave them, we feel sad. So we were ready to go. But now because of pandemic we say, "We have to stay there one month, one time and see, visit everywhere." Yeah.

16 AS: And next, I was just wondering, this might be a little sensitive question and you can choose not to answer if you want. Has your family been impacted by the Hong Kong protests since last March?

MC: My family? [AS: Yeah.] No, because my father is hundred seven.

AS: Yeah.

MC: He cannot go out, he's housebound. So that's the only relative I have. And my husband has a sister there. And she said, "It was not bad. Just just don't go out in the nighttime."

AS: Yeah.

MC: And that's it. We don't have any family there.

AS: And um, what is your opinion on the protests?

MC: Well, I hope both side give-give way, you know. The protest, I was sympathetic at the beginning because that extradition-extradition law, and then it became violent. [AS: Yeah.] I didn't, I didn't appreciate that why did they, you know, burned all the shops, and the subways, and everything. And then they protest about the national anthem, but it was like that when they changed to 1997, they didn’t protest that, and now they start protesting. I think they overdid it. And now China, you know, sort of clamped down, and they–they overdid it too, it's too strict. So I hope both side give way, give some way you know. [AS: Yeah.] I hope I hope they come to a happy settlement. But it's sad. When we go—if we go back, I learned a lot of restaurant, sort of like get bankrupt. And a lot of places close down. It is very sad. Yeah.

AS: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I was just also wondering with the kind of similar circumstances on the death of George Floyd causing the protests to start peacefully and now also become violent and there are still places there have been, like violent protests. Can you share with us your opinion about the Black Lives Matter movement?

MC: Um, I-I'm sympathetic with the blacks because George Floyd didn't deserve his death like that. [AS: Yeah.] He died like that. But I-I'm all for peaceful demonstration. Not to, not violent you know, those people who make use of the situation and burn, again burn and loot. This is not the right way. I mean peaceful demonstration, yes.

AS: Yeah. And what do you think as some Asian Americans we can do in this country to help with racial division in this country, especially leading up to like the election, what can we do as Asian Americans?

MC: Well, [laughs] I'm not telling, I'm not saying which one, you know Democrat or Republican, but I will go with one that is, that is more peaceful with the—and–and–and who will work on discrimination. I will vote for that person. I'm not going to say names [laughs.]

AS: Okay, no problem. [laughs.] Thank you so much.

MC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, probably you guess what I-who am I going to vote? [Both laugh.] [AS: Great.] Yeah. Because I'm not going to vote, to vote for a racist. That's what I'm sure, I'm going to vote for somebody who will want [to] work on discrimination. Yeah.

AS: Yeah, I guess that's all of my questions. Do you have anything else you'd like to share?

MC: No, that's all thank you so much.

17

AS: Yeah. Thank you. That's a wonderful interview and really inspiring to see you having contributed so much to your family and your children and bringing up to become really amazing people. Thank you.

MC: Yeah, I think one more thing. One more thing I want to add. Everybody has to, to be grateful for whatever they have, bad or good. You have to be grateful. I try [to pray] every night, I'm grateful. So you'll be happier person. I think that's all I can do. [AS: That's great.] Yeah. Okay. Bye-bye. Thank you.

AS: Thank you.

MC: Thank you, Ann. Bye.

AS: Bye.

[Interview ends.]

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