Thursday Volume 561 18 April 2013 No. 142

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 18 April 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 465 18 APRIL 2013 466

Mr Vaizey: I was in Chester only a few weeks ago, House of Commons and it certainly is a jewel in the crown in the north-west. May I take this opportunity to say how delighted I am that so many cities—and, indeed, regions—have applied Thursday 18 April 2013 to become the city of culture?

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Is the Minister aware that some local authorities, such as my own in Exeter, are doing their best to maintain the cultural and PRAYERS artistic life of their areas in spite of the massive Arts Council cuts, while others—neighbouring Somerset, for example—have cut support for the arts completely? [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Does he believe that such cuts are a false economy?

Mr Vaizey: The right hon. Gentleman could have cited the battle that we had with Newcastle, which Oral Answers to Questions initially planned to cut all its arts funding. I believe that local authorities should invest in the arts, as has the city of Liverpool, which, on the back of being the European capital of culture, is now a cultural and tourist destination CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT that is second to none.

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Kettering’s The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Alfred East art gallery is the oldest purpose-built gallery was asked— in Northamptonshire and, to celebrate its centenary this year, it recently put on display some 350 pictures, Regional Arts Funding filling the gallery. Will my hon. Friend encourage other art galleries around the country to get paintings out of 1. Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): their archives and to put them on display? What recent assessment she has made of the level of funding available to regional arts organisations. Mr Vaizey: I know that it is the Arts Council’s intention [151739] to pursue a policy of lending out paintings, and I would certainly encourage art galleries and museums to lend The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, paintings when it is possible to do so. Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): I am sure that the House will allow me briefly to pay tribute to Sir Colin Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Lottery funding is Davis, one of the world’s finest conductors, who died a crucial source of cash for regional arts organisations, last week. and I have repeatedly asked Camelot to provide a Over the life of this Parliament, we will invest almost constituency breakdown of the purchase of lottery £3 billion to help to create rich cultural experiences for tickets so that MPs on both sides of the House can see as many people as possible across the country. whether their constituents are getting their fair share of cash. Will the Minister urge Camelot to provide such a Tristram Hunt: I thank the Minister for his answer breakdown? and I echo his tribute to Sir Colin. Does the Minister share my real concern that the Mr Vaizey: I am well aware of the hon. Lady’s Arts Council appears ready to allocate a further £20 million campaign, and I will certainly look at that issue on her of taxpayers’ money to London’s South Bank when so behalf and write back to her about it. many arts organisations in the regions are crying out for funding? Given that our capital city is so wealthy and Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): The Minister has such deep pockets, surely a much greater proportion recently claimed that the Government’s funding cuts of private and charitable funds should be financing that had had no impact on new writing in regional theatre, otherwise very worthwhile endeavour. but the report “In Battalions” tells a very different story. Over the past 12 months, 62% of theatres have had to Mr Vaizey: That is a capital allocation for the further cancel one or more new plays, and 54% are commissioning redevelopment of the South Bank, and obviously some fewer of them. The Minister must surely agree that that of our major national arts institutions are based in the is significantly different from what he claimed. Does he capital, but something like £174 million is going to arts therefore accept that the Government’s policies are organisations outside the capital this year, and that level hitting regional theatre, and will he tell the House what of funding will continue. he is going to do about it?

Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Chester is Mr Vaizey: We have responded to the “In Battalions” the north-west’s flag-bearer in the bid to be the city of report. I note that, of the 20 or so theatres that took culture in 2017, and we are trying to build a coalition of part in the survey, about half had actually received an local and regional organisations to support our bid. increase in their funding. We continue to support new What support is the Department offering in relation to writing, and theatre cuts amount to less than about 3% city of culture 2017? Would my hon. Friend care to visit overall, so theatre has been well protected. The report Chester and see the jewel in the crown of the north-west? concentrated on a few theatres whose funding had been 467 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 468 impacted and did not concentrate on those that had will the Secretary of State seize hold of that opportunity, had their funding increased or had received new funding. because the situation is creating real difficulties for It ill behoves the hon. Gentleman, who supported businesses that want to relocate from London to south Newcastle’s arts cuts, to complain about arts cuts. Wales?

Broadband Maria Miller: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about the ability of business people—or anybody 2. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): What else—to do work when on trains, and I have spoken to progress her Department has made in improving broadband my colleagues in the Department for Transport about availability throughout the UK. [151740] it. Importantly, however, as I have said, two thirds of premises in this country now have access to superfast 8. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): broadband. The hon. Gentleman will also want to What progress she has made on broadband delivery. know that the internet contributes more than 8% to the [151746] UK economy, which is the highest proportion in any G8 country. We are impatient for more change, but we have The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport already made a great deal of progress. (Maria Miller): Two thirds of premises in the UK now have superfast broadband available. Some 100,000 more Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): homes and businesses are getting coverage every week First, may I join in what the Minister, the hon. Member and average speeds have increased from 5.2 megabits in for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), said about Sir Colin Davis? May 2010 to 12 megabits by November 2012. He was an enormous figure in music, who was admired and respected, and who inspired people, not only in this Alun Cairns: The Government have made excellent country, but around the world. He is a sad loss to the progress in rolling out broadband across the UK, and London Symphony Orchestra, this country and music the Secretary of State should be congratulated on that. generally. However, there are some rural communities where the Everyone knows that having access to decent-speed last mile remains a problem. What consideration has broadband is vital to businesses and people’s work and she given to reviewing the regulations to empower rural home life and it needs to be in all areas. When we were communities to take more control in assisting in the in government, we committed to everyone in the UK rolling out of broadband to their areas? getting decent-speed broadband—at least 2 megabits per second—by the end of last year. This Government Maria Miller: As my hon. Friend will know, the abandoned that target, and Ofcom says that 2.6 million Government have committed to 2 megabits on a universal households still have not got decent-speed broadband. basis throughout the country. We also have a £20 million Instead the Government promised superfast broadband rural community broadband fund to do the sorts of by the end of 2015, but there is growing concern that things he mentions, including working with the Welsh they will not meet that target. Can the Secretary of Assembly to make sure broadband reaches rural areas. State assure the House that those concerns are wrong Importantly, we are also always looking at ways to and that she is on track to meet the Government’s target remove barriers that are stopping that last mile, and I of 90% of premises getting superfast broadband by will continue to work with my hon. Friend and other 2015? colleagues on that. Maria Miller: The difference between the right hon. Andrew Selous: On 9 February last year I asked the and learned Lady and me is that she may put forward Secretary of State’s predecessor when broadband speeds warm words, but this Government are actually putting would improve in villages including Hockliffe, Tilsworth, forward practical interventions. Not only with our Stanbridge and Eggington in my constituency, where commitment to 2 megabits universally, but through our speeds continue to be about 1 megabit per minute, urban project and our rural broadband project, we are which makes watching video on the internet very difficult. actually delivering for the people of this country. More Will I be able to pass on some good news to my than two thirds of premises now have access to superfast constituents shortly? broadband, so perhaps it is little wonder that the people of this country bought so many goods and services Maria Miller: I understand my hon. Friend’s impatience, online in 2011—we bought more than any other major and the nine months’ delay we had in getting state aid economy. Broadband has a fantastic role to play, and approval for our broadband programme was certainly we are making sure it reaches more and more households. problematic. I am pleased to be able to tell him that the Indeed, it will reach 10 million more households by the programme in his Bedfordshire constituency is green-rated end of this Parliament. and that we are due to begin its procurement in the week of 7 May, with the contract to be agreed in Broadband August. That is good news for his constituents. 3. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): What assessment Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Government’s she has made of progress towards rolling out superfast complete and utter incompetence—[HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, broadband to 90% of premises by 2015. [151741] hear!”] Already I have support. The Government’s complete and utter incompetence in the Department for Transport’s 10. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): letting of the west coast main line franchise means What assessment she has made of progress towards delays that will result in the trains to Cardiff and rolling out superfast broadband to 90% of premises Swansea having no wi-fi or broadband until 2016. When by 2015. [151749] 469 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 470

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, broadband in Worcestershire. In addition, villages in Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): We are making my constituency such as Overbury, Little Witley and good progress. With the signing of the procurement for Martley have come up with innovative rural solutions. Northumberland this week, 20 projects should be under Will the Minister welcome an event that I am holding in way, representing more than 60% of the budget. All Pershore on 10 May to demonstrate those alternative procurements are scheduled to complete by the end of technologies to some of the rural communities that are summer 2013. in the last 10%?

Nic Dakin: Given that the Government’s intention is Mr Vaizey: I have worked closely with my hon. Friend to achieve 90% coverage by 2015, why are they signing on some of the community projects that she has contracts with delivery dates in 2016? championed in her constituency. If her constituents are watching this morning, I can tell them that they have no Mr Vaizey: I know that the hon. Gentleman will more doughty champion. She stops me at every possible welcome the contract that was signed on 8 March with occasion to raise these issues. She and I have worked Onlincolnshire, the brand for the delivery of broadband together to push through the bureaucracy and get these in Lincolnshire, with £14 million of investment from the innovative community projects up and running, so of Government and £8.5 million coming from BT. At the course I welcome them. end of that contract, the coverage will be not just 90% but 94.5%. Inland Waterways: Tourism

John Robertson: Following the supplementary question 4. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for What steps she is taking to promote tourism on inland Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) on Question waterways. [151742] 2, access to broadband and superfast broadband is one thing, but uptake is another. At a time when the The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media Government are trying to make people use broadband and Sport (Hugh Robertson): The Government, through to access benefits, what are they doing to ensure that VisitEngland, promote tourism on inland waterways in such people have access to broadband and that it is a number of ways. Inland waterways have benefited rolled out, considering that, as a written reply they gave from Government funding through the £25 million me demonstrates, they do not even know the numbers? rural growth fund and a £1 billion contribution to the Canal & River Trust. Mr Vaizey: I treat any question asked by the hon. Gentleman with great respect, given his long and Gavin Williamson: South Staffordshire has some of distinguished career with BT. [Interruption.] I would the finest canals in England, with the Staffordshire and like to answer the question, but I am being heckled by Worcestershire canal and the Shropshire Union canal. the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). Perhaps What more can my right hon. Friend do to encourage when he stops heckling me, I can get on with answering not only more domestic tourists, but more international that important question. The previous Government tourists to discover the delights of our canals, which appointed Martha Lane Fox to run the Race Online would bring much-needed business not just to rural 2012 campaign, which has become Go ON UK. She has communities, but to our towns and cities? brought together charities and businesses to encourage people to get online, which is very important. The Hugh Robertson: I have a very simple and, I hope, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills also positive answer for my hon. Friend. VisitBritain will has a campaign to encourage small businesses to get actively market all of Britain’s canals and waterways on online and learn to use e-commerce. its public-facing website. I hope that that will achieve the effect that he desires. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Small businesses in rural areas are desperate to access Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): The Nene runs superfast broadband and most of the not spots are in through my constituency, providing great leisure facilities rural areas of north Yorkshire. What are the Government for tourists and locals. However, when I visit places doing to penetrate the 10% of rural areas that have no such as Barnwell country park these days, it concerns prospect of superfast broadband by 2025? me to see such a reduction in resources, particularly from the local authorities. For example, the rangers are Mr Vaizey: I know that my hon. Friend, as the Chair gone and the hides that had been maintained have been of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, taken away. Will the Department for Culture, Media does a fantastic job in highlighting the need for access and Sport make representations to the Department for to superfast broadband in rural areas. I was delighted to Communities and Local Government on its budgets, visit north Yorkshire at the end of last year to open the given that they will be cut under the Chancellor’s recent first cabinet. The uptake of superfast broadband from Budget? the cabinet that I opened is 30% ahead of schedule and more than 15,000 homes in north Yorkshire have already Hugh Robertson: Clearly, my Department wants to been reached, thanks to that programme and the do everything it can to encourage tourism and the Government’s help. development of tourism facilities. Decisions made by local authorities in that regard are, of course, a matter Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): for them, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that for those Commercial firms and Worcestershire county council assets that lie within my control, everything will be done are making excellent progress in rolling out superfast to promote the inland waterways of this country. 471 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 472

First World War Centenary I would, of course, be delighted to hear more about the point she raises, particularly the role of women in 5. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): What medicine. The lottery will make available funding for plans she has to ensure a suitable commemoration of local community projects, and I am already working the centenary of the first world war. [151743] closely with Scotland and Scottish officials to ensure that we correctly mark this event in Scotland too. 9. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What plans she has to ensure a suitable commemoration of the centenary Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) of the first world war. [151747] (PC): The first world war was caused by a complete foreign policy malfunction based on the imperial ambitions The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport of the elites of the time. It resulted in the deaths of (Maria Miller): The Government will deliver a four-year 30 million soldiers and 7 million civilians. Surely the programme to mark the centenary, focused around the Secretary of State agrees that it would be more appropriate themes of remembrance, youth and education. We will to commemorate the end of the war, rather than to lead the nation in acts of remembrance, and a £50 million replicate in 2014 a jamboree reminiscent of the jingoistic fund will be made available to provide a framework for nonsense used to drum up support for the slaughter. learning and community-led projects. Maria Miller: I have to say that the tone of the hon. Penny Mordaunt: For Hampshire, investing in our Gentleman’s intervention is not quite what I would like heritage will also yield considerable sums in visitor to hear. We should ensure that we mark the entirety of revenue. I am delighted that Hampshire county council the first world war from its beginning to its end, as it has sought to invest in HMS Monitor M33, which will had a considerable impact on every community in this yield millions in heritage funds and tourism income. country. I recently had the honour of visiting many of Does the Secretary of State think that Hampshire Liberal the war graves of those who gave their lives throughout Democrats who opposed that measure should visit the war, and we need to ensure that we honour their Portsmouth dockyard to see what a good return on memory in full. investment looks like? 17. [151757] Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) Maria Miller: I thank my hon.—and maybe gallant?— (Con): On a recent visit to the war graves in Belgium, Friend for that question. I have visited Monitor M33 with all the emotions that everybody feels, it struck me and there are only two such battleships left in existence. how much we owe to thousands of soldiers from across Hampshire county council has had the foresight to the Indian subcontinent, the Caribbean, Africa, Nepal invest in something that would otherwise have been lost and, in one cemetery, even China. There is a real chance to the nation, and it should be applauded for doing so. in these commemorations to involve every British person, As my hon. Friend points out, that is not only good for regardless of race or religious background. the heritage of our country, but great for tourism in Portsmouth. Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right. I, too, have seen some of those graves. I can reassure him that our Henry Smith: What discussions has my right hon. noble Friend Baroness Warsi and I are working with me Friend had with broadcasters, particularly BBC local on that—she has a number of commemorative events in radio, to mark this important centenary? No community hand. in our country was left untouched by the impact of the first world war. Broadband Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right to say that every community—and, indeed, every individual—in 6. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What progress she this country can find their story with regards to the first has made in ensuring the future delivery of broadband world war. My officials have been talking to the BBC to rural areas. [151744] and other institutions that are already well developed in the ways they will be supporting this important event, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, which was probably one of the most defining in this Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Our analysis nation’s history. suggests that funding for the Cheshire project is in line with funding for other projects. Given the high level of Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): A huge European regional development funding plus contributions contribution was made by Dr Elsie Inglis and the from local authorities, fibre coverage is expected to medical teams of women who helped not just as nurses, reach 96% of premises in Cheshire at the end of the but as doctors. They felt that their contribution was to programme. We are hoping to sign the contract by the the whole of the UK, not merely to Scotland. Is the end of this month. I hope my hon. Friend will help me Secretary of State prepared to meet me and other to reach that goal. Edinburgh MPs to discuss how that contribution could be commemorated in London? I understand that some Fiona Bruce: I thank the Minister for that reply, difficulty has been placed in the way of an exhibition which rather pre-empts my supplementary question. on that. Perhaps I could cite some figures in support of my belief that Cheshire’s Broadband Delivery UK funding Maria Miller: The hon. Lady raises the important needs to be looked at again. In comparison with other issue of the role of women and the way in which the northern counties—Shropshire has £8 million, Lancashire first world war had an immeasurable impact on that. has £10 million and Cumbria has £17 million—Cheshire 473 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 474 has been provided with £4 million. Will the Minister new groups starting up. Theatre groups, literary groups meet me and representatives from Cheshire East council and groups across the piece are starved of resource. to discuss that? That is not good enough. What is he doing about it?

Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend was absolutely right: just Mr Vaizey: I bow to no one in my admiration for the like our rural broadband programme, my answer was hon. Gentleman—[Interruption]—apart from my Secretary well ahead of schedule. I simply echo what I said, but of State, as was said from a sedentary position. I say add that I will meet my hon. Friend at 4 o’clock this that particularly given his family connection with the afternoon to discuss the issue. Arts Council and the expertise that he is able to access across the dinner table on occasion. We are working Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): very hard. Most of the money that we use to fund arts The Minister has said in the House before that money organisations goes outside London, and we set up Creative has been allocated to the devolved Government in England to provide a national body to support creative Edinburgh. Has there been much discussion since the start-ups outside London, and that is doing a fine job. allocation of that funding on how broadband is rolling out in rural areas in Scotland? Mr Speaker: It sounds as though the Sheerman Mr Vaizey: We have allocated £100 million to the household is an improving environment. devolved Administration in Scotland. We have regular discussions, not just between the Minister responsible Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Will and me but among officials. We signed the highlands the Minister join me in the commending the excellent and islands enterprise agreement, which was one of the work of the Creative Foundation in Folkestone in most difficult to sign because of the extremely rural supporting start-up creative businesses? Does he agree nature of the area. I understand that roll-out plans that its work will make Folkestone and east Kent an continue apace, but I will certainly re-engage with the excellent choice for UK city of culture in 2017? Scottish Minister at the earliest opportunity. Mr Vaizey: I have visited Folkestone on many occasions. 14. [151754] David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I It not only has the adornment of my hon. Friend as its welcome the steps that the Government are taking Member of Parliament, but benefits from the extraordinary to improve broadband provision in rural areas, but will philanthropic work of Roger De Haan, who has invested my hon. Friend tell the House what steps the millions in Folkestone. He understands that investing in Government are taking to make available best practice culture is one of the key ways of ensuring regeneration. on community-led solutions to help our most isolated rural communities? Will he also tell the House whether BT and other service providers are involved in that important initiative? Gaming Machines

Mr Vaizey: We work closely with the Department for 11. Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): What Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the rural progress her Department has made on its review of B2 community broadband fund, which is designed to help gaming machines and other aspects of gaming machine communities that are not part of the local and national stake and prize limits. [151750] rural broadband roll-out to get access to superfast broadband. Of course, we also work closely with BT and other providers on that. The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson): The consultation period for the triennial review of gaming machine stakes and Small Companies: Arts prize limits closed on Tuesday 9 April, at which point my Department had received over 9,000 responses. Officials 7. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): are currently in the process of analysing them. What steps she is taking to ensure a cultural climate which encourages small companies and start-ups in the arts sector. [151745] Simon Wright: My constituent David Armstrong became addicted to B2 machines, losing more than £100,000 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, over four years. Real people are suffering real hardship Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The Government from these machines. Although the Government are are developing a wide range of initiatives through our seeking more evidence of the link, that will take time, so creative economy programme and Arts Council England may I urge the Minister to take a precautionary approach to support the establishment of small companies within in the meantime and limit the maximum stake to £2? the arts sector. In 2011, we launched Creative England, a national agency that invests in and supports creative Hugh Robertson: It goes without saying that I am companies. extremely sad to hear about the case my hon. Friend raises. I very much hope that he was able to respond as Mr Sheerman: This is supposed to be the Department part of the review and that his response is one of those of Culture, not the Department of Philistines. If the being analysed by my officials. If that review produces Minister goes to real parts of the country outside the sort of evidence that he has cited, I absolutely give London, he will see that there are so few grants and him the assurance both that we are very aware of the little money available for start-ups. The lifeblood of our problem and that we will not hesitate to act on the basis cultural heritage and our cultural future comes from of that evidence. 475 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 476

Telecommunications Market Mr Vaizey: I utterly reject that accusation. After the 3G auction, there was a National Audit Office inquiry, 12. Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): What her and it is entirely standard procedure to have the NAO policy is on competition in the telecommunications run the ruler over the 4G auction. I happen to believe market. [151752] that Ofcom did a fantastic job in running it. I went personally last night to congratulate the 92 men and women who worked on that auction and delivered a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, fantastic result. In the 3G auction, telecom companies Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Our telecoms paid far too much and it took too long to roll out 3G. market is one of the most open and competitive in the Now we are likely to get 4G by the end of 2015— world. Effective deregulation has set industry free to two years ahead of schedule and with 98% coverage. create new services and set international standards. Of course, the way we configured the 4G auction ensured that we remained a full-player marketplace in mobile. Tourism

Stephen Timms: The mobile operator 3 has a licence 13. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What steps she is because the previous Government wanted competition. taking to increase the contribution of tourism to the The Secretary of State and I were recently at a celebration British economy. [151753] of 3’s 10th anniversary. That competition has hugely benefited customers, so why has the entire rural superfast The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport broadband fund been handed to one company—to BT? (Maria Miller): The campaign launched by a partnership BT is now behaving like any monopolist that has everyone between the GREAT campaign and VisitBritain will over a barrel, and we have heard about the consequences deliver 4.6 million inbound visitors and more than from all sides this morning. Why has competition been £2 billion of spending by 2015. VisitEngland’s marketing, forgotten? including Holidays at home are GREAT, generated incremental spending of nearly £30 million last year, Mr Vaizey: Competition has not been forgotten. May and a new round will be launched in May. I say that I bow to no one in my respect for the right hon. Gentleman as a former telecoms Minister who did Mark Pawsey: My constituency benefits from being so much to promote competition. As a result of that, the only place to have given its name to a sport that is BT has just a 30% share of the broadband market, and played all over the world. My right hon. Friend was the market share of the historic incumbent in the copper kind enough to accept my invitation to visit Rugby and broadband market is one of the lowest in the world. see how we are preparing for the 2015 world cup. Does That is a testament to the right hon. Gentleman’s great she agree that my constituency’s link to the game provides work, but we are carrying it on. We made sure that our a fantastic opportunity for the boosting of local tourism process for rural broadband was competitive. It just so in our economy? happens that BT has won the contracts, and I reject the suggestion that it is behaving like a monopolist. We are getting value for money for our contracts, and BT is a Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right to draw our great British company doing a great job for Britain. attention to the historic link between international sporting events and tourism. All Members should think about how they can promote the efforts that their constituencies Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): On the subject are making to benefit from the tourism industry, which of rural broadband, I encourage my hon. Friend to now supports more than 2.5 million jobs and more than recognise that there is more competition in the market £100 billion in the economy. than some people understand. Companies such as Cotswold Satellite in my constituency have high-quality, high-speed Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Britain’s musical and low-cost satellite services that are available now, to heritage is one of the key drivers of tourism in this anyone who wants them. country. Liverpool is the most obvious example because of the Beatles, but we should also remember Manchester Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that during the heyday of Madchester and the Hacienda. there are a number of players in the marketplace. It is What is the Minister doing to bring such examples to fiercely competitive, not just in mobile but with Virgin the attention of tourists to the UK, and how does that in fixed-line and, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, fit into the Government’s strategy? there are many community players as well. Maria Miller: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I am sure Many of our cultural institutions are going abroad to the Minister will join me in welcoming the National present a positive image of this country’s cultural and Audit Office inquiry into why the 4G auction raised arts sector to potential visitors, but it is campaigns such £1 billion less than was forecast. In a time of austerity, it as the GREAT campaign that can pinpoint cultural is quite wrong for the mobile phone companies to be assets which reside not only in the south-east and given spectrum at prices below even what they were around our capital city but throughout the United prepared to pay. In his letter to me, the Comptroller and Kingdom, and can encourage more people to enjoy Auditor General said: more of our great country. “This differs from the earlier auction of 3G spectrum…where the generation of proceeds was at least one of the objectives of 15. [151755] Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): Given the auction.” that transport links are one of the Government’s Why was the Minister so casual with taxpayers’ assets? priorities for tourism, what discussions is the Secretary 477 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 478 of State having with those in other Departments about update us on discussions in which she has engaged with improving, in particular, rail links to our major tourism the aim of ensuring that that sporting event on Sunday hotspots? is what we remember?

Maria Miller: I know that the hon. Gentleman takes Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman is right to bring a keen interest in this subject. As he knows, we have that up. He will know from London 2012 that this launched an extensive programme to establish how we country has a great deal of experience of ensuring that can improve not just rail links but other transport links our sporting events go well and that security is at the throughout the country, and tourism has to be at the heart of the planning process. The London marathon is heart of those discussions because of its important role no different and I can tell him clearly that my right hon. in the UK economy. Friend the sports Minister met the Mayor yesterday to go through the plans again to reassure themselves and Topical Questions the Government that we have the right security procedures in place. We are reassured, as a result of our experience T1. [151760] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): If she not just with the marathon but with the Olympics, that will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. we have the right people in place to ensure that the event is a great success. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller): On behalf of the whole House, let me T5. [151764] Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): I commend put on record that our thoughts are with, and our the Minister on the work that is being done on rolling condolences go out to, all who have been affected by the out superfast broadband, but this week I have heard tragic events that took place at the Boston marathon. from some constituents who are concerned about possible I was pleased to learn that this weekend’s runners here delays in rolling out superfast broadband to rural Fylde. in London, a number of whom will be Members of May I have an assurance that the Minister will look into Parliament—including our own departmental Whip, this and that we will get some transparency from BT to my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky ensure that we have reassurances for rural areas? Morgan)—will be asked to wear a black ribbon as a sign of respect and solidarity, and that a period of Maria Miller: I can understand why my hon. Friend silence will be observed before the race begins. has raised that issue. As I said earlier, the role of superfast broadband and connectivity in our lives is Andrew Stephenson: I echo my right hon. Friend’s growing. It is one of the most important ways that comments about the Boston marathon. Our thoughts people can do business in this country. We are ensuring and prayers are with the families of those who were that it is a priority to get connectivity, whether it is injured. through 4G or superfast broadband, to all areas of the Back in February, I raised with the ministerial team country. I am pleased to consider specific examples, but the subject of Olympic legacy funding and the funding I can reassure my hon. Friend that the Under-Secretary of grass-roots sports clubs. I am delighted to say that of State for Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend since then another Pendle club, Burwain sailing club the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), is meeting BT and training centre, has benefited from funding. I have weekly to go through each of the procurement plans in recently been working with Colne football club, which detail. Indeed, 60% of our programme for rural areas will also be bidding for funds. What more can Ministers has been procured and it is going ahead at great speed. do to promote the funding that is available to grass-roots sports clubs in Pendle? T2. [151761] Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Has the Secretary of State had any luck in Maria Miller: As my hon. Friend will know, increasing breaking the logjam of appointments in Downing participation in sport is at the heart of our legacy street, or is the Prime Minister still blocking anyone programme, and we have a £1 billion fund to promote who is not a member of the Conservative party from it. In particular we have the Places People Play scheme, serving on trusts and boards? which relates directly to the legacy, the aim of which is to ensure that people continue to be inspired by London 2012 not just for the next 12 months, but for the next Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman is perhaps thinking decade. back to a bygone age, when that was an issue. I can reassure him that we want to have the best people in Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Everyone will want to place to do the job. What I will say directly to the hon. send condolences to those who have been affected by Gentleman is that we are trying to do a better job of the bombing that took place during the Boston marathon ensuring that we get more women involved in those on Monday. This Sunday 37,500 runners will take part appointments and that we have diversity on our boards, in the London marathon, and hundreds of thousands not just in business but in trusts. of people will line the streets to cheer them on. Some will be cheering on my hon. Friend the Member for T6. [151765] David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): The Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), and we wish him all Britain on Foot campaign, which will be launched the best. publicly in May, will help many more people to get Given that the London marathon is one of the active outdoors and will help boost tourism in rural greatest occasions in the annual sporting calendar for areas. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the the United Kingdom, may I invite the Secretary of Government back those aims and the campaign and State to deliver some words of reassurance, and to will she join me in welcoming the hard work that is 479 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 480 going on from the British Mountaineering Council, the Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): The Outdoor Industry Association and the Ramblers in decision to hold the FA cup final at 5.15 pm to allow taking this forward? more football fans to watch the game after their teams have played earlier in the day means that City and Maria Miller: I know that my hon. Friend takes a Wigan fans will struggle to get back by train. Does the deep interest in this subject and I absolutely agree with Minister agree that the solution for the future is to him about the importance of getting people out and reinstate the FA cup final as the showpiece game on the about so that they can enjoy the beautiful countryside last day of the season, the week after the last round of of our country. The initiative that he has undertaken is the league games? absolutely right, as it will not just improve people’s health but show tourism opportunities. The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media T3. [151762] Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): and Sport (Hugh Robertson): Everyone across the House The Minister wants councils to invest in the arts, yet the will have been appalled by the scenes that we saw at Department for Communities and Local Government Wembley last Saturday afternoon and early evening. has cut council budgets in such a draconian manner Both the FA and the police are looking very carefully that many of them are being forced to fund services into what happened and the causes behind it. Clearly, only when they are statutorily required to do so. Since kick-off times is one element of that. It would be wrong the arts are an important factor in economic regeneration, of anyone here to prejudge that investigation, not least when will we get some joined-up government so that his because I am almost sure there will be a criminal Department is not pulling in one direction while the element to it, but if any action needs to be taken, the DCLG pulls in another? hon. Gentleman has my assurance that that will take place. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): When will we get T7. [151766] Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) Labour councils that, instead of keeping money for (Lab): The BBC has committed to £300 million of their back offices, support money for the arts? When broadband funding from the digital dividend post-2015, will we get Labour spokesmen in this House condemning yet despite my repeated questions on the subject, the Labour councils that cut the arts budget? Minister has refused to say what will happen to that money or even if Broadband Delivery UK will continue T8. [151767] Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): to exist post-2015. Can he answer my question now or, Does the Secretary of State agree that if one believes if not, can he promise that the answer will be in the that the highest of British culture can be found in forthcoming communications White Paper? military music and pageantry, in the architecture of Sir Christopher Wren—about whom it was famously Mr Vaizey: I bow to no one in my respect for the said “Si monumentum requiris, circumspice”—and in hon. Lady, who did a fantastic job when she worked for the incomparable English of the King James version of Ofcom. We are actively looking at the options for the Bible, no finer example could be found than spending that £300 million for the last 10%. As soon as yesterday’s magnificent funeral for the late and great we have an answer, she will be among the first to know. Margaret Thatcher? Maria Miller: My hon. Friend raises an important Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I recently point. All of us will have felt that yesterday’s event was visited the excellent Neon Play studios to see at first superbly staged not only by St Paul’s cathedral, but by hand just how much potential there is in the video our military personnel. It was a fitting tribute to a great games industry. However, this is set to be hampered by leader and a woman who is an inspiration to many the EU Commission investigating UK games tax relief, of us. which has only just been secured after lobbying by the Minister and the industry representative, TIGA. Will T4. [151763] Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) the Minister stand up for our position? (Lab): Birmingham, historically the city of Pebble Mill, has great BBC traditions. Widespread concern has been Mr Vaizey: Yes. I am working closely with the European expressed that in Britain’s second city, much programme Commission on its investigation into video games tax making has been transferred, with the licence fee payer relief and I am confident of a good result. in the midlands no longer receiving value for money. Does the Minister agree that with dialogue now under way with the new director-general, our great national Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): This week we have broadcaster has an obligation to ensure that Birmingham seen the re-emergence of soccer violence in the UK. As does not suffer a disproportionate impact and remains a result, hooligans will be banned, if convicted, from a world-class centre of production and programme league grounds. They are now congregating in non-league making? grounds, where the banning orders do not apply. Will the Government look at extending banning orders to Mr Vaizey: The BBC is obviously independent of non-league grounds? politicians and it would be wrong of us to make decisions on its behalf. Under the previous Government the BBC Hugh Robertson: I say again that no one in any part began the move to Salford, which has been very important. of the House would do anything other than condemn I know that the new director-general recognises, as did the scenes that we saw both on Saturday and again on his predecessors, that the BBC has a duty to the whole Sunday. Incidentally, I do not think this marks a return country. May I also take this opportunity to welcome to the bad old days of the 1970s and 1980s. Huge the opening of the biggest library in Europe in Birmingham? progress has been made but clearly there is an issue 481 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 482 there and it is one that we need to address. We are Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): The Government’s awaiting the results of the investigations from the police report, “Think, Act, Report: one year on”, states that and the football authorities. As I said in answer to an 54 organisations have signed up to the Government’s earlier question, if action needs to be taken, this voluntary equality pay scheme. Given that there are Government will take it. 6,000 businesses in the UK that employ more than 250 people, does the Minister think that a 0.9% sign-up Several hon. Members rose— rate demonstrates sufficient voluntary progress on equal pay? Mr Speaker: I am afraid this question will have to be the last. Jo Swinson: Clearly, we want to increase the number of organisations signed up to “Think, Act, Report”, but Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Will we have also been focusing on those that employ the the Minister tell us what steps he is taking to ensure that largest number of workers. The current figures show consumers do not lose Freeview television reception as that more than 80 organisations and large-scale employers part of the 4G roll-out? have signed up, which represents 1.3 million employees. I think that is a key figure, because 1.3 million employees Mr Vaizey: An organisation has been established are now protected by companies that are ensuring that called at800, which is funded by the mobile operators to they not only consider what they need to do to tackle the tune of £180 million. It is the biggest programme of the pay gap, but act on it and, importantly, through its kind anywhere in the world. transparency, report on what they have been doing.

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Section 78 of WOMEN AND EQUALITIES the Equality Act 2010 requires businesses that employ more than 250 people to measure and publish their gender pay gap figures. Will the Government implement The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked— that and, if not, what is the problem with doing so? Earnings: Gender Jo Swinson: When the Government launched the “Think, Act, Report” initiative, we set out the fact that 1. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) we believed it would be helpful if companies took a (LD): What assessment she has made of the most voluntary approach in pursuing this matter. Of course, recent statistics on differential earnings for women and we have not ruled out commencing that part of the 2010 men in the (a) public and (b) private sector. [151729] Act at some future point, and we have also brought forward legislation—this measure is set out in the Enterprise The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Regulatory Reform Bill—that will force organisations and Equalities (Jo Swinson): The gender pay gap is found guilty of breaching equal pay laws to conduct falling and currently stands at 19% in the public sector equal pay audits. I think that there is a clear message to and 26% in the private sector. The causes of the gender be sent to employers: they should get their house in pay gap are varied: roughly a third can be attributed to order on equal pay, or the equal pay audits will be education and the types of jobs women do; about a coming down the track. third can be attributed to work patterns and the need to take time out of the labour market, for example for Workplace Potential caring; and the remaining third is unexplained, which could include discrimination. The Government are committed to tackling the gender pay gap and believe 2. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): What recent that we absolutely need to get it down. progress she has made on helping women achieve their potential in the workplace. [151730] Simon Hughes: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her commitment on this issue. More than one in five of The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller): the lowest paid full-time women workers earn under There are more women in work than ever before. Since £80 a week, and it is much worse for women in low pay the coalition Government came into office, 347,000 than it is for men. Will she indicate that the Government more women are in employment. We are supporting have that in their sights and have a strategy for dealing women to maintain their connection to the labour with inequality across the wage range, particularly for market, which will allow them to reach their potential those struggling at the very bottom end of the income in work. That is why we have announced the extension scale? of the right to request flexible working to all by 2014 and the introduction of shared parental leave by 2015. Jo Swinson: My right hon. Friend is right to raise that issue. Figures from the Office for National Statistics Margot James: In some workplaces women are show that the gender pay gap is lowest for those at the dramatically under represented. According to the Institution lowest end, with a 7% gap in the bottom 10%, compared of Engineering and Technology, just 6% of the engineering with a 23% gap in the top 10%, but there is absolutely work force is female. What more can the Government no room for complacency. This week, as he will know, do to influence the choices young girls make and to we announced a 1.9% increase in the national minimum open their minds to the potential of a career in engineering? wage, which is set against a 0.8% increase in wages, according to the most recent ONS statistics. Of course, Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right. It is about two thirds of the beneficiaries of that rise in the national choices, particularly the choices that young girls and minimum wage will be women. women make in school and in higher education. That is 483 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 484 why the National Careers Service has such an important an inquiry. Will my right hon. Friend be kind enough to role to play. We also need teachers to encourage young meet us to discuss some of things that we have raised—such girls to take those subjects that can help them go into as unconscious bias training, which leading companies engineering, as well as all the work we are doing to are giving as a matter of course to help more women get modernise the workplace in order to keep them there. up the pipeline?

Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): The Government’s Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to own equalities impact assessment on universal credit say that such work can make all the difference in admits that the policy might encourage many second changing that culture in the workplace. I am aware of earners, who are usually women, to leave work and stay the Conservative Women’s Forum’s work in the area, at home. Does the Minister agree that such a move and I applaud it. I would be delighted to meet her. would turn the clock back on women’s equality and undermine the role of women in the workplace? Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): The Secretary of Maria Miller: Absolutely not. Our work under universal State will know that the recent Cranfield report and the credit to increase access to child care for women working Davies progress report say that much more needs to be fewer than 16 hours represents the first time that such done. Does she agree with the Business Secretary, who support will be in place. We should be championing says that there is a lack of progress and that quotas are universal credit as a way of making sure that more a real possibility? women can stay connected to the labour market at a time when they also have caring responsibilities. Maria Miller: The Business Secretary and I helped to launch the most recent update on Lord Davies’s report. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Many Both of us noted how much progress had been made. working women lose out when they have a baby. Last However, the hon. Lady is right to say that there is still month, a survey by the lawyers Slater & Gordon showed much more to be done, whether in FTSE 100 or FTSE that more than one in seven women returning from 250 firms. However, the House should note that considerable maternity leave do not have a job to go back to, yet the progress has been made under the Government—progress Government are not even bothering to collect proper that was not forthcoming before. data on pregnancy-related redundancy. The Slater & Gordon research showed that two in five new mums Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): The message that were refused flexible hours and nearly half said that the we send from this place is important. Some 32 Ministers job they had gone back to was less good than the one are entitled to attend Cabinet meetings, but just five are they had left. What are the Government doing to get a women. Will the Secretary of State join me in urging the grip on pregnancy discrimination? Prime Minister to put the situation right?

Maria Miller: I am sure that the hon. Lady will be Maria Miller: The hon. Lady will know that the pleased to know that I recently met many of those who Government are absolutely committed to the importance are looking at the issue, which, like her, I take seriously. of equality and fairness and of getting more women I want women not to have a false choice between having involved, not just at the top of our organisations but a family and staying in employment; they need to be throughout them. What we and other parties are doing able to do both. That is why by changing the culture in is making sure that we develop that pipeline of great our workplaces so that businesses look at how they can women to take those positions in future. accommodate women—not just in respect of their statutory duties, but more fully than that—we can make sure that women can not only have their family responsibilities, Human Trafficking but continue in their jobs. 4. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Senior Business Posts What steps she is taking to prevent women from becoming victims of human trafficking. [151733] 3. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): What steps she is taking to increase the number of women in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women senior positions in business. [151732] and Equalities (Mrs Helen Grant): Raising awareness with potential victims in source countries and training The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller): front-line professionals in the UK are key to our work The Government are supporting Lord Davies’s voluntary, in identifying and preventing the exploitation of potential business-led approach to improve the number of women victims of all ages, genders and nationalities. on boards, which has resulted in an unprecedented increase to date. On top of that, our “Think, Act, Report” initiative encourages companies to take action Mr Burrowes: Given the shocking statistic that British and report on gender equality in the workplace, promoting girls trafficked for sexual exploitation make up nearly greater transparency. More than 80 leading companies half of all modern-day slavery victims in the UK, what are signed up so far, representing more than 1.3 million voice and help is the Minister giving those voiceless and employees. helpless girls?

Dr Coffey: I thank my right hon. Friend for that Mrs Grant: The Government recognise that, sadly, answer about an issue that we both believe to be important. trafficking can and does occur in the UK. The inter- A number of Government Members have undertaken departmental ministerial group on human trafficking 485 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 486 brings together all parts of the Government and raises The previous Government did not do it because they awareness of trafficking, which can affect boys and men did not want to put out incorrect information, and in addition to women and girls, across the UK. The neither do we. group also highlights the tailored support available through the Government’s contact with the Salvation Bill Esterson: Let me tell the Minister about a constituent Army. The police are also doing a great deal of very of mine. He was assessed as fit for work after being good work to tackle trafficking. disabled for 12 years as a result of a degenerative disease. While he appeals, he loses £25 a week in benefits. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will He has now lost a further £14.71 a week through the the Minister talk to the Chairman of the Home Affairs bedroom tax and £34 a month as a result of the council Committee about how women who are terrified of tax reduction scheme. That is over £200 a month in publicity could give evidence to Select Committees in total. Like thousands of people with disabilities— confidence that they will not be named and identified? Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but we are very Mrs Grant: I am very happy to have a conversation pressed for time. I need a quick question with a question about that with the hon. Gentleman and the Chairman mark at the end of it—a sentence. of the Select Committee. Bill Esterson: Does not my constituent’s example show that it is time the Government admitted they have Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I think the got it wrong about the impact on disabled people? Minister is being a little reticent. She perhaps forgot to say that on Monday the Prime Minister is opening an Esther McVey: I would like to refresh the hon. exhibition about human trafficking and the hidden Gentleman’s memory about a couple of points. The number of slaves in our constituencies. Will the Minister work capability assessment was brought in under the welcome the Prime Minister’s intervention? It would be previous Government, and we are trying to get it right. good if she did. Equally, the cumulative impact on housing under the previous Government shows that 1.8 million people Mrs Grant: I am very grateful for my hon. Friend’s were left on waiting lists, a quarter of a million people reminder of that. It is an excellent idea, I welcome it, were in overcrowded housing, and the housing bill and I will visit it. doubled. The intention of our cumulative impact is to get it right. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): The Minister will be aware that many women who are victims of Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): human trafficking, instead of being given the support Virtue is not found solely in the amount of money that they need, end up being prosecuted or having action is spent. Does the Minister agree that it is as important taken against them under immigration rules. What to enable disabled people to fulfil their aspirations and assessment have the Government made of the suggestion live fully in society as it is to focus on financial payments by the Centre for Social Justice in its report last month to a proportion of them? that there should be a modern slavery Act that outlines an obligation to investigate indicators of slavery so that Esther McVey: I completely agree with my hon. Friend, when there is a suggestion that there has been human who does so much in this area. This is about fulfilling trafficking, it is investigated rather than people being potential, protecting the most vulnerable, and helping prosecuted? those who would like to get into work. The budget remains at £50 billion, which is a fifth higher than Mrs Grant: It sounds like a very interesting report. I the average in Europe, over double that in America, and have not yet read it in detail, but I certainly will, and six times more than in Japan. We are world leaders I will look at what the hon. Lady said. Our aim, at the and I am proud of our record. end of the day, is to tackle this terrible issue at source. It is an abhorrent crime. We want to work smarter at our Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): The Minister’s borders, have better law enforcement, and make sure answer to the question illustrates why we need a cumulative that people do not become victims. impact assessment. She said that it is a dynamic, changing situation. A huge amount of reform is coming in, and Government Policy: Disabled People that is exactly why we must have a cumulative impact assessment.

5. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): What assessment Esther McVey: I agree on certain points, but I want to she has made of the cumulative effect of the Government’s ensure that correct and robust information is handed policies on disabled people. [151734] out and, for the reasons I have given, that is not possible. We do not want to trade in inaccurate information. Our The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work intention is to ensure that we support the most vulnerable and Pensions (Esther McVey): The Government provide people, and that is exactly what we are doing. equality analysis of policy changes routinely, as required by the Equality Act 2010. It is not possible to publish a Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) robust cumulative impact assessment separately for disabled (Lab): Two thirds of families hit by the bedroom tax are people because a number of overlapping reforms are disabled, according to the Minister’s own figures, and continuing until 2017-18. The caseload is dynamic, and, for many of them there is nowhere to move to. In as under the previous Government, the data are limited. Wakefield district, 5,600 households are being hit by the 487 Oral Answers18 APRIL 2013 Oral Answers 488 bedroom tax, there are fewer than 200 smaller homes Esther McVey: I listened carefully to the right hon. available, and Wakefield and District Housing estimates Lady. The discretionary payments, which we have trebled, that it will take seven years to re-house everyone. It is are going to the right people. We need to make sure that even more difficult for disabled families, because most local authorities are very clear in what they do. We have of the homes do not have disabled access. The discretionary also exempted pensioners, and if a disabled child cannot housing fund will not help all of those families. Why do sleep in the same room as another child, that room will not the Minister and all her colleagues stop hiding be exempted. Rather than making inaccurate comments behind the nonsense in their briefing papers and go out and perpetuating myths, the right hon. Lady should get and hear from the families who are being hit? They have her facts right and get behind the reforms that we are nowhere to go and no way to pay. What does she tell making to replace the mess that she left behind. them to do now? 489 18 APRIL 2013 Business of the House 490

Business of the House “until we see the proposals in black and white.”—[Official Report, 16 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 196.] 10.36 am Will the Leader of the House clarify what this mysterious concession might be, or cannot this incompetent Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of Government even organise a concession in a conservatory? the House give us the business for next week? Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): George will like that. The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley): The business for next week is as follows: Ms Eagle: I suspect that the Patronage Secretary has MONDAY 22 APRIL—Consideration of Lords amendments got a few conservatories of his own. to the Public Service Pensions Bill, followed by consideration of Lords amendments to the Crime and Courts Bill For 60 years, the Agricultural Wages Board has protected [Lords], followed by remaining stages of the Partnerships vulnerable rural workers from exploitation at the hands (Prosecution) (Scotland) Bill [Lords], followed by a of rich landowners, but on Tuesday, without so much as motion relating to section 5 of the European Communities a hint of debate or a vote on the Floor of the House, the (Amendment) Act 1993. Government abolished it. This transfers £240 million from workers in some of the toughest and lowest-paid TUESDAY 23 APRIL—If necessary, consideration of jobs in rural England directly into the back pockets of Lords amendments, followed by Opposition day [unallotted their employers. It is a disgrace that such a crucial half day]. There will be a debate on Northern Ireland. protection can be removed without so much as a vote or The debate will arise on an Opposition motion, followed even debate in the democratically elected House. It will by, if necessary, consideration of Lords amendments. take our Opposition day debate for the arguments to be WEDNESDAY 24 APRIL—If necessary, consideration of heard, but rural workers protections have already been Lords amendments, followed by Opposition day [unallotted destroyed. It is clear from the parliamentary timetable half day]. There will be a debate on the Agriculture that the Government could have made time for the issue Wages Board. The debate will arise on an Opposition to be debated properly. Anyone would think that the motion, followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords Prime Minister was trying to avoid business running on amendments. until Wednesdays. THURSDAY 25 APRIL—If necessary, consideration of In 28 of the 31 weeks that the Health Secretary has Lords amendments, followed by a motion to approve a been in the job, England’s major accident and emergency statutory instrument relating to banks and banking, units have missed the target for treating patients within followed by a motion to approve a European document four hours, but at the same time he has handed £2.2 billion relating to railways, followed by, if necessary, consideration of NHS funds back to the Treasury. Will the Leader of of Lords amendments. the House arrange for an urgent statement on how The date and time for the prorogation of Parliament Ministers will bring all accident and emergency departments will be set once the progress of business is certain. in England back up to the national standards they set? Despite being forced to backtrack once already, the Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for Health Secretary persists with his damaging section 75 announcing next week’s possibly full business timetable. regulations, which will effectively privatise the NHS by the back door. The Lords will debate them next Wednesday, Yesterday we marked the end of an era with the so will the Leader of the House tell us when we will funeral of Margaret Thatcher and our thoughts are debate them in the Commons? with those who knew and loved her. I rarely agreed with her, but she did break the existing political and economic Following the Budget, the International Monetary consensus and I think it is time that we did so again. Fund this week again slashed the UK growth forecast and agreed with us that the Chancellor needs to change We are now entering the final hectic days of this course. A year ago, it predicted growth of 2%, but that parliamentary Session—if necessary. Next Wednesday has now dropped to just 0.7%. Unemployment is rising, it will be five weeks since the Prime Minister was last real wages are falling and borrowing is shooting through held to account in this House. Given the likely timing of the roof, but the Chancellor’s only growth strategy Prorogation and the state opening on 8 May, it is seems to be to destroy rights at work. When will he get possible that he will have to be answerable here again real and admit that his plan is just not working? Our only twice before June. Does the Leader of the House downgraded Chancellor has been busy trying to be a agree that this is a completely unacceptable state of man of the people, attempting to distract attention affairs? What will he do to ensure that this House stops from his huge tax cut for millionaires by dropping his conveniently going into recess on Tuesdays, thereby aitches in a speech at Morrisons—and he was not even letting the Prime Minister off the PMQ hook? very good at that. With a failing economic strategy, a On Tuesday the Communities and Local Government faltering legislative programme and a Government adrift, Secretary got himself into a right old pickle with his will the Leader of the House tell the Chancellor that we chaotic plans for a free market free-for-all in conservatory need a change of course, not a change of accent? construction. With Labour, Liberal Democrats and Tories uniting against him, he was forced to hint at an unspecified Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the shadow Leader of concession, but in the damning words of the right hon. the House, particularly for her gracious good wishes to Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), his those of us who knew Margaret Thatcher well. Many of colleague around the Cabinet table for two years, us at her funeral service at St Paul’s cathedral yesterday “we will not believe what” were tempted to think it the end of an era, but we the Secretary of State for Communities and Local realised that that was not the case at all—it simply Government says marked her passing. It was a very personal event, a 491 Business of the House18 APRIL 2013 Business of the House 492

[Mr Lansley] Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): May we have a statement on the case of Mr Haroon Aswat? This man funeral service, and even with the national and international is a suspected terrorist whom the British courts have presence, it did not represent the end of an era. It was a decided must be deported, not to some war-torn failed reflection of the character of Margaret Thatcher. I state, but to the United States of America. Now the hope that that persists and that we all understand the European Court of Human Rights has decided that it is importance of values and principles and of seeing them apparently not safe to deport him to America. If America through to completion. is not considered a safe and suitable destination for The hon. Lady asked about the Prime Minister’s deportees, that raises the question: where on earth is response to questions in the House. The Prime Minister considered safe and suitable? is assiduous in his attendance in, and support for, the House and in responding to questions. The number of Mr Lansley: The House will have heard what my hon. statements made and questions he answers in response Friend has had to say. The Government are of course to them is unprecedented compared with his predecessors, disappointed that the European Court of Human Rights and of course she neglected to observe that on 8 May, found that extradition to America would breach Haroon on the state opening of Parliament, the Prime Minister Aswat’s human rights. That judgment does not become will open the debate on the Gracious Speech. final for three months. My colleagues at the Home Office are considering as a matter of urgency all the The hon. Lady talked about permitted development legal options that are available. They include whether rights. She would not expect me to anticipate at business we request a referral of the case to the Court’s Grand questions what will be a further debate in the other Chamber. Given that, I hope the House will understand place on the Growth and Infrastructure Bill, but under that I cannot comment further on the case at this time. the circumstances I thought my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government did what was right. We know how important it is, Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): As through the extension of permitted development rights, we are coming to the end of the Session and the end of to give people an opportunity—this carries through the the Session for this Backbench Business Committee, principle of localism—to develop their own homes. may I take this opportunity on behalf of every member This is not something we should disparage; it is something of the Committee to thank all Back Benchers who have we should support, and it will have the additional brought us ideas for debates, which have always been benefit of supporting growth in many communities. We interesting and frequently entertaining? just want to ensure, recognising the debate in the House, that we do so in a way that recognises where concerns Mr Lansley: I share the hon. Lady’s view. In these arise. seven months that I have had the privilege to be Leader of the House, I have had the opportunity to see the On forthcoming business, the Opposition have taken Backbench Business Committee at work. It has been a the opportunity to schedule a debate on the Agricultural positive reform in this Parliament and it continues to Wages Board next week and we will debate it then. improve and strengthen its position. I note that Andreas On A and E waiting times, the hon. Lady raises a Whittam Smith talked in The Independent this morning point that I have heard my right hon. Friend the Secretary about what he regarded as a revitalisation of Back-Bench of State for Health respond to, but I am sure he will power in this House. That is due not least to the work of take further opportunities to do so. She should look—and the Backbench Business Committee, and I am glad that perhaps talk to her hon. Friends in Scotland and Wales— we have had the opportunity to support it. and recognise that this has nothing to do with the character of the targets set. The targets were set at 95% Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): Next on clinical advice—quite appropriately—but A and E week, Keith and Frances Smith of Warwick Books will departments are coming under a range of pressures present a petition to Downing street on the amount of during the course of a very severe winter. The situation corporation tax paid by Amazon. They want to ensure in England is not different from that in Scotland and that there is a level playing field between multinational Wales; in fact, if anything, the pressures and resulting businesses and small businesses such as theirs. As part delays in treatment are greater in Wales and Scotland. of that, all businesses must pay their fair share of Although she is not here at the moment, her right hon. taxation. The petition has been signed by over 100,000 Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) will have an people. Will the Leader of the House consider allocating Adjournment debate next week precisely to raise these time for a debate to ensure a fair tax system for all UK issues. businesses? Finally, the shadow Leader of the House talked about the IMF. When she looks at what the IMF has Mr Lansley: Yes, I am grateful to my hon. Friend for had to say, she will see that it is clear that there is making those points. He will have noted that, in a considerable scope for optimism across the world, although debate yesterday, the general anti-abuse provision was there are substantial problems in Europe. We as a discussed, which is a very important provision. What I country are very exposed to those problems; none the would say reflects what the Chancellor of the Exchequer less, according to the IMF we are anticipated to have said earlier in the year. We are concerned to pursue a higher growth rates in the year ahead than Germany or twin track: to continue to reduce corporation tax, as the France. We also have employment levels that are Chancellor set out in the Budget, so that we are highly considerably better and unemployment rates that are competitive among international economies; and to considerably lower than the average across the eurozone. promote and support enterprise and growth. We recognise I think she should express support for that, rather than that one of the most important ways to make the seek to disparage this country’s economic performance. corporation tax reduction possible is to minimise evasion, 493 Business of the House18 APRIL 2013 Business of the House 494 reduce avoidance and tackle abuse. That is what the Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman should know that Government are doing. The more we can achieve that, matters of this kind are inappropriate for public debate, the more we can ensure that the tax take is what it ought but that does not mean that they are not the subject to be and reduce the rates of tax. of—[Interruption.] The preparations for future funerals are not a fit subject for public debate, but they are the Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): subject of detailed consideration, as were the arrangements Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 1199, for Baroness Thatcher’s funeral over a substantial period. in my name and those of other hon. Members? I do not recognise the figures he mentioned; I have no knowledge of any basis for figures of that kind. We [That this House expresses its disgust with and have made it clear that the figures will be substantially condemnation of Global Vision College, Manchester and below what he mentioned and they will of course be its staff member Sunny Gilani, for stealing £1,500 in fees published in due course. All the arrangements relating from an applicant who paid them this money, was unable to Baroness Thatcher’s funeral seemed to me entirely to obtain a visa to the UK to take up a place at the appropriate and fitting in the circumstances. college, asked for her money to be returned and has not received it despite several letters sent to the college by the Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Section 68 right hon. Member for Manchester,Gorton; warns prospective on page 21 of the General Medical Council’s “Good students to have nothing to do with these swindlers; calls Medical Practice” states: on Greater Manchester Police to investigate this larceny; and calls on the Home Secretary to investigate the validity “Youmust be honest and trustworthy in all your communication of this college in being able to recruit overseas students.] with patients and colleagues. This means you must make clear the limits of your knowledge and make reasonable checks to make Global Vision college has stolen £1,500 in advance sure any information you give is accurate.” fees from a niece of a most trusted constituent of mine Sir Bruce Keogh, the medical director of the NHS, who could not get a visa to come here from Pakistan. failed to abide by that duty in his decision to suspend Despite prolonged correspondence from me, the college children’s heart surgery at the Leeds general infirmary. has refused to return the money. Will the Leader of the When are we going to get a statement from the Secretary House be kind enough to warn all potential students to of State for Health that will finally announce a proper steer clear of these thieves and ask the Home Office to investigation into this fiasco? investigate whether such an institution should have the right to have overseas students? Mr Lansley: I do not agree with my hon. Friend in relation to Sir Bruce Keogh. I think that he acted as Mr Lansley: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman anybody, objectively, would believe he should have done will forgive me that, although I read the Order Paper when in receipt of that information, in order to take a assiduously, as he would expect, I have not particularly precautionary approach while trying to establish all the taken note of early-day motion 1199. I will of course facts and to put patient safety first. read it and bring it to the attention of Ministers at the On my hon. Friend’s question about a statement, I Home Office. I know that he is very careful in pursuit of know that he was here in his place when my right hon. his constituents’ interests, and I will encourage Home Friend the Secretary of State for Health responded to Office Ministers to investigate the matter further. an urgent question on Monday. My right hon. Friend answered questions at that point, as well as making it Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): Is my clear that he would be willing to do so again in the right hon. Friend aware of Brighton and Hove city future. council’s proposal to install safe drug consumption rooms in the city? Have the Government been consulted Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): by the council on the matter? May we have time for My constituent Richard Freeman has not seen his son either a statement or a debate on that important issue? in six years, since his ex-wife abducted him and went to live in America. Despite numerous British court orders Mr Lansley: We have not seen any detailed proposals. stating that his son should be returned to him, his It is important to say that the Government will not ex-wife has refused to comply. Government figures show support any actions that contravene the United Nations that instances of parental child abduction have risen drugs conventions or the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. by 88% over the past decade. May we have an urgent Permitting premises to be used for consuming or possessing debate on this rapidly growing problem? What steps can substances controlled under section 8 of the Act is be taken to ensure that parents can be reunited with illegal. As I say, we have not seen detailed proposals. their children? The establishment or operation of drug injection rooms risks encouraging illicit trafficking and carries a significant Mr Lansley: I know that Members across the House risk of harm in local communities. will have encountered cases similar to the one that the hon. Lady raises. They are very distressing and cause Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): May we immense harm to families. Ministers are well aware of have a debate in Government time on the future this issue, but I will of course ensure that my hon. arrangements for the funerals of ex-Prime Ministers, Friends respond to her on this case. I do not recall this given the fact that we have spent extravagantly— matter being debated recently, so she and colleagues £10 million or £20 million—on Mrs Thatcher’s funeral? across the House might like to ascertain whether a May we have a debate on future rules for future Prime suitable opportunity could be found for an Adjournment Ministers, and can the Government publish all the or Back-Bench debate, as I know many Members are detailed costs to aid that debate? concerned about it. 495 Business of the House18 APRIL 2013 Business of the House 496

John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Two of my constituents Mr Lansley: I am glad my hon. Friend raises that recently contacted me about a loophole that allowed the point, because I think it will be of concern to Members Bank of Ireland to raise the differential rate on their across the House. In all our constituencies we look to mortgage, leading to a 200% increase. The Financial local authorities to exercise their community responsibilities. Services Authority argued that it could do nothing about That is particularly the case at present, as local authorities it, as it had happened before 2004. Will the Leader of have growth incentives that they can use to support not the House make time for a statement from the Treasury only enterprise locally but important community facilities. so that we can find out what can be done about this? I therefore hope what my hon. Friend has said will be heard not only in this House but in the chamber of his Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend raises an important council. point. As he suggested, such cases are the responsibility of what is now the Financial Conduct Authority, and he Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I will know that Martin Wheatley, the chief executive of am sure both you, Mr Speaker, and the Leader of the the FCA, has exchanged correspondence on the matter House will agree that the future of our country depends with the Chair of the Treasury Select Committee, my greatly on entrepreneurs, entrepreneurship and business hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie). start-ups, and that many small businesses have been ill Those letters have been published on the parliamentary served by the banking sector in this country over a website. Mr Wheatley states: number of years. Is the Leader of the House aware that “We currently have no plans to treat this as a prima facie case many small business start-ups are now using crowd of mis-selling.” financing for funding? That is a new way of regenerating In the case of the constituent of my hon. Friend the our economies and communities, but is he also aware Member for Salisbury (John Glen), the FCA appears to that the Financial Conduct Authority will introduce a cite the fact that the mortgages originated before such regulation on that in about three weeks’ time—on 14 May, mortgages were included in the scope of regulation in I think? Only a very small number of people have been 2004, and that to address the issue would require consulted on it. People with crowd funding expertise in retrospective legislation. My hon. Friend will understand relation to start-up businesses have not been consulted, that we could consider that only in the most exceptional and neither has this House been consulted on a measure circumstances. However, I understand that the Bank of that is vital to the future of enterprise. Ireland has waived early repayment charges for customers affected by the changes. That might mean that his Mr Lansley: I completely endorse what the hon. constituents will be able to find a more competitive rate Gentleman says about the importance of start-ups, and elsewhere. in the last year for which figures are available more new Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): businesses were created in this country than in any of The new director-general of the BBC took up his post the previous 20 years. It is important that we continue at the beginning of April. The BBC is of course independent to support start-ups, however, and the availability of of the Government, but is it not time to have a debate in finance is central to the success of new businesses. I am Government time to remind the BBC of its regional aware that new businesses are increasingly using crowd responsibilities and of the fact that there should be financing and other innovative sources of funding, although some correlation between the licence fees raised in I was not aware of the details relating to any FCA certain regions and the amount of programmes regulation. I will ask my hon. Friends at the Treasury to commissioned in those regions? write to the hon. Gentleman about that, and to let us know about the processes for the scrutiny of any such Mr Lansley: The hon. Lady makes a point that I regulation. know is important to Members, and I do not know whether she had the chance to raise it with Ministers at Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Has my right hon. Culture, Media and Sport questions a few minutes ago. Friend seen my early-day motion 1282 on the rights of I cannot at this stage promise any business in this Tesco workers in Harlow? Session—we are looking at business in the next one—but [That this House notes that whilst Tesco has stated it would probably not be appropriate for the Government that it has no plans to re-open its Harlow site at a future to raise the matter that she mentions, save, further on, date, there is evidence from the USDAW trade union that as part of the debate leading to the renewal of the Tesco gave the same assurances when it shut the Feny BBC’s charter. However, she might find opportunities Lock plant, which was later reopened with workers on elsewhere in the House to debate the issue. lower pay; regrets therefore that many Harlow workers Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Very graciously, are now facing redundancy and, despite promises of support, you, Mr Speaker, came to my constituency last week to many are still without jobs to go to; further regrets that open the first London office of the Silver Star Appeal Tesco’s corporate pay protection policy appears only to diabetes trust, and later that week I handed over a apply to certain elements of salary rather than to total Ladbrokes cheque to St Luke’s hospice as a result of a compensation; therefore urges Tesco to explain why managers grand national bet I had placed. To my horror, I discovered from the closing Harlow plant will be able to move to the that mean-minded Harrow council has removed Dagenham plant with full terms and conditions, but that discretionary rate relief from all charities in Harrow, as this is being denied to Harlow workers; and further urges a result of which St Luke’s hospice alone will lose the company to allow its Harlow workers to move across £17,000 a year. May we have a debate on the operation to the Dagenham plant with their full existing level of pay.] of non-domestic rate relief by local authorities, as we My right hon. Friend will be aware that Tesco is try to build a big society in which charities can provide closing a distribution centre in Harlow, which will affect services that the public sector does not? 800 jobs in my constituency, including those of many 497 Business of the House18 APRIL 2013 Business of the House 498 members of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied important matter not only to churches, but, as I know Workers. Despite promises of pay protection, in reality from my constituency, to villages that have had their workers are facing losses of up to one third of their communications completely cut off, in some cases a income if they move to the new Dagenham site, and for number of times, because of the theft of metal from many that will be unaffordable. May we have an urgent the networks. We are taking action, not least with the debate on workers’ rights, so that Parliament can consider benefit of that private Member’s Bill. how to stop big corporations maltreating their workers? Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): May we have a debate Mr Lansley: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I know on the Chancellor’s policies and his failure to ensure he has been working very hard to support his constituents that banks support small and medium-sized businesses? who are affected by this. The centre is not far from my A company wrote to me recently, saying that constituency, so I know about what is happening, and “we keep hearing on the news that the government want to see other Members, including the hon. Member for Bolsover SMEs growing stronger. How can this happen if SMEs do not get (Mr Skinner), have concerns about similar issues. Jobcentre financial support from their banks.” Plus is supporting those at risk of redundancy at the centre. Given my hon. Friend’s views and the concerns Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman is an experienced of other Members and of this House on this important Member of the House and will no doubt have taken the matter, he might like to consider seeking, if not in this opportunity to raise those issues in the debate on the Session then early in the next one, a debate on the Finance Bill. I draw to his attention what my right hon. Adjournment. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills said recently about the launch of the business Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): The hon. Member bank, which will deliver billions of pounds of additional for Winchester (Steve Brine) introduced a welcome support through lending to businesses. debate in Westminster Hall yesterday on the impact of police cautions on young people in their later years, to Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): My which the Minister responded constructively. The debate right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will notice also threw up wider issues such as how Criminal Records that future business includes a motion on draft regulations Bureau disclosures of cautions and minor convictions under the Reservoirs Act 1975 that are to be considered are blighting people’s lives years and decades later—and shortly by the relevant Statutory Instrument Committee. there were similar impacts on candidates of all parties It is an integral and essential part of those regulations during the police and crime commissioner elections. that the safety guidance for reservoirs recommended by May we have an early debate to encourage Ministers to the Institution of Civil Engineers be approved and propose early action to put a stop to this unfair and released by the Department for Environment, Food and discriminatory practice? Rural Affairs. A number of projects that are in the pipeline, such as the reservoir project in my own Pickering Mr Lansley: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman area, are dependent on that advice, which has been has raised that matter and to hear that the Minister for awaited since 2010. May I make an urgent request for Policing and Criminal Justice gave a constructive and the Secretary of State to come to the Dispatch Box to positive response. If I may, I will check with my right give the reasons for that delay or to publish that guidance hon. and hon. Friends at the Home Office and my hon. forthwith? Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) about when there might be a further opportunity for Home Mr Lansley: I will, of course, ask my colleagues at Office Ministers to tell us more about their views on the DEFRA about the matter that my hon. Friend rightly matter. raises and seek a response for her as soon as possible.

Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): May we have a statement on the effectiveness of the BBC Radio Humberside reported this morning on fake amendments to the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 that internet job adverts that claim to be for companies such came into effect two months ago? The House will recall asB&Q.They ask for personal details, such as bank that the amendments made it a criminal offence for account details, and money for Criminal Records Bureau metal dealers to pay in cash for scrap. Initial figures checks up front. With people desperate for work in from Leicestershire police show a pleasing 47% decrease Hull, some may fall prey to such scams. Please may we in the incidence of metal theft across the county. That have a debate on how we can raise awareness of this will be a great relief to churches and others in my issue and go after these criminals who are preying on constituency who have been targeted repeatedly by metal my constituents? thieves. Mr Lansley: That is a very important point. I will talk Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and to my right hon. and hon. Friends, not least at the other Members, especially my hon. Friend the Member Department for Work and Pensions, who I hope are for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway). The Scrap Metal aware of what the hon. Lady has described through Dealers Act 2013 will create a robust new licensing their Jobcentre Plus network, to see what action they regime that will further restrict the market for stolen and local authorities can take. metals. My hon. Friend is right that we are making progress. The Association of Chief Police Officers estimates Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) that there has been a 38% reduction in recorded metal (Con): May I say how much I am looking forward to theft offences. Likewise, Network Rail and the Energy welcoming you to Plymouth tomorrow, Mr Speaker, to Networks Association report a big reduction. This is an meet HMS Heroes and members of the YouthParliament? 499 Business of the House18 APRIL 2013 Business of the House 500

[Oliver Colvile] with it—we were clear about instituting a moratorium on that so that we could proceed with more rational Does my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House proposals that would deliver more secure and sustainable agree that there is only one word to say about yesterday’s services for patients. That is what is happening in south-east funeral of Baroness Thatcher, and that that is “Britannia”? London as a consequence of the use of legislation passed by the previous Government but never used, to Mr Lansley: In St Paul’s cathedral, where so many institute a special administration regime. heroes of this country are memorialised, I thought yesterday that we were taking our leave not only of a Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The shadow woman who inspired many and achieved so much, but Leader of the House raised the frequency of Prime of the first woman Prime Minister. She will figure high Minister’s questions. My recollection is that it was Tony among great Britons in future. Blair who moved to holding it on one day a week rather than two. When she was here, Mrs Thatcher loved this Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Yet another place, this mother of Parliaments, and she would come deadline has come and gone for the award of the twice a week to answer Prime Minister’s questions. Thameslink rolling stock contract, and there have been Would it be a fitting tribute to her for the Leader of the at least 10 similar deadlines. The original decision to House to make a statement next week, reinstating Prime award the contract was made in June 2011. May we Minister’s questions twice a week? have a debate in Government time to discuss the failings of the Department for Transport and its inability to Mr Lansley: I am in favour of paying tribute to Mrs award this Thameslink contract? Thatcher in very many ways, but that is probably not one of them. Mr Lansley: I cannot promise time at the moment, but the hon. Gentleman will note that my hon. Friends Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The hon. Member for from the Department for Transport will answer questions Wellingborough (Mr Bone) is naughty because he knows on Thursday 25 April, which might be an appropriate perfectly well that this is not the mother of Parliaments. point. In the meantime I will check with them to see He is, however, right on one point: because of the whether there is anything on which they can further Government’s jiggery-pokery, the Prime Minister will update the hon. Gentleman. answer Prime Minister’s questions only four times in 12 weeks. Even worse, the Chancellor will probably not Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): The main rail answer Treasury questions until three whole months route into Cleethorpes has been closed since 9 February have passed since the Budget. The first Treasury questions following a landslip at Hatfield near Doncaster. In the is likely to be on 18 or 25 June. We could solve all that if short term, the most important thing is to restore the Government fulfilled their promise to bring in a services, but in the longer term there are concerns about House business committee by the third year of this the safety and monitoring of the spoil tips. Will the Parliament. We were generous and allowed that not to Leader of the House arrange for a statement outlining be by the beginning of the third year—that is what we the responsibilities of the various regulatory agencies all thought the logic meant—but we are now at the end and the frequencies of inspections? of the third year. I presume that we could use the week after next just to introduce that legislation. Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend because that is an important issue for those in north Lincolnshire. Mr Lansley: As far as I could see, the House was I reiterate my point about Transport questions next happy when I published a calendar for the year ahead Thursday because he will clearly want to raise that issue last October. Most of the issues the hon. Gentleman if possible. I will also contact my hon. Friends because raises are a simple consequence of that calendar. In so I know they will want to take action on this issue and far as they are not, they appear to be the consequence of provide reassurances as soon as they can. the hon. Gentleman engaging in speculation about the date of Prorogation. The date of Prorogation, of course, Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): May we have a debate has not been set. on the NHS in London in the light of the review of health services in London published by Imperial college Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Sheep farmers this week? In the foreword, Ruth Carnall—the former in upland areas of Britain have suffered unprecedented chief executive of the NHS in London—makes it clear disaster as a result of recent snowfalls. Today’s written that when the Leader of House was Secretary of State statement by the Minister with responsibility for agriculture, for Health he was wrong to halt the reforms in 2010, my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome including “A Picture of Health” in my area of south-east (Mr Heath) is welcome, and I have just learned that I London, and that there were consequences for patients have secured an Adjournment debate on this matter as a direct result of his decision. Such a debate would next Tuesday. Will the Leader of the House encourage give him an opportunity to apologise to my constituents hon. Members who want to represent the people who for the serious problems caused in south-east London are suffering in their communities to attend that debate, as a result of that decision. where their contributions will be very welcome.

Mr Lansley: I have not seen the foreword by Ruth Mr Lansley: Many people across the country, including Carnall, but it is clear that at the last election “A Picture those who live far from the upland areas where sheep of Health” was wholly opposed by very large parts of farming is pursued, will none the less have felt distressed the community in south-east London. People voted about what happened to hill farmers and their sheep. I against it and for a Government that would not put up declare an interest, as my sister-in-law is responsible for 501 Business of the House18 APRIL 2013 Business of the House 502 sheep farming in a part of north Wales. Many people Mr Lansley: I was Secretary of State for Health, so I living in my hon. Friend’s part of north Wales have understand the position. The NHS quite properly recorded been particularly hard hit, and I am glad that my hon. a surplus for the previous year, amounting to about Friend the agriculture Minister was able to announce £1.6 billion. However, there is a distinction to be drawn details of additional support today. I hope Members between the availability of resources within the NHS will support my hon. Friend’s Adjournment debate next and Government financial accounting for the Department week. This would demonstrate not only that practical of Health as a whole. What happened—and I think it is support will be available to those affected, but that a reflected in what has happened this year—was that a great deal of shared feeling exists about the circumstances surplus in the Department was not spent during the that have hit these people so hard. financial year and was therefore once more available to the Treasury; but that does not mean that the Department Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): We had a did not ensure that the NHS organisations with the Westminster Hall debate in March on the Foreign Office’s surpluses would continue to have access to them in report on its human rights work in 2011. It was frustrating future years. because we had only 90 minutes to discuss the report on all aspects of its human rights work. The 2012 report Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Next was published just this week. Will the Leader of the Thursday, theoretically, I shall initiate an end-of-day House look at whether we can have a full day’s debate debate about the appalling human rights situation in on that report on the Floor of the House? Will he talk Burma. It is particularly appalling for the Rohingya to the Select Committee Chair and the Government people, who are being slaughtered daily. The European about that, so that we do not end up discussing this Union will decide on Monday whether to end sanctions report in March 2014—with a two-year time lag? against Burma. May we have an early statement to confirm that, while approving of political reform, the Mr Lansley: I shall, if I may, talk to my colleagues in EU does not approve of ethnic cleansing in Burma? the Foreign Office and to the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. If I recall correctly, the debate Mr Lansley: I know that the issue raised by my hon. arose in Westminster Hall, following a Select Committee Friend is causing concern throughout the House. The report. This is more properly a matter for the Select British Government regularly raise our human rights Committee and the Liaison Committee first, and I shall concerns with the Burmese Government, and both the of course discuss it with them. Foreign Secretary and Baroness Warsi did so this week during meetings with members of a visiting Burmese Government delegation. We have always said that when Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Across the serious crimes have been committed, those who have nation, some 70,000 disabled wheelchair-bound children perpetrated them must be held accountable for their are awaiting the right wheelchair to enable them to lead actions. full and active childhoods with as much independence as possible. The Leader of the House will know that the If my hon. Friend were to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, charity Whizz-Kidz does much excellent work in providing he might have an opportunity to raise the issue during such wheelchairs to children in Kettering and across the Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions on Tuesday, country. May we have a statement from the Secretary of and, given the business that I have announced, I personally State for Health on how charities such as Whizz-Kidz imagine that he will have an opportunity to initiate his can take best advantage of the NHS reforms to get the debate on Thursday. right wheelchairs to the right children as quickly as Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): May we possible? have a debate on access to NHS data? On Tuesday, I was told in a written answer that information on A and Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I had E waiting times at Trafford general hospital was not the privilege of speaking at the reception for Whizz-Kidz available, but I have subsequently learnt that it is. On in the later part of last year. I saw how it takes the Tuesday, during health questions, the Under-Secretary opportunity to put children in the right wheelchair in a of State for Health, the hon. Member for Central day, bringing fantastic improvements in the availability Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), agreed to meet of the right wheelchair support for children. It is precisely me and parliamentary neighbours to discuss the situation. because of that sort of evidence of how charities, as Will the Leader of the House help to expedite that well as private sector organisations, can add value to the meeting? NHS that the section 75 regulations are going through as they are. They are not about privatising services; they Mr Lansley: I will of course contact Health Ministers do not do any privatisation: what they do is give those and ask whether they can expedite those discussions, responsible for commissioning these services the opportunity but I should add that in the NHS we are publishing not to look at how they can deliver the best possible service only more data but more relevant data than ever before. to their patients. That is particularly true of not just A and E waiting times, but the whole set of quality indicators on the A Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): North Cheshire and E dashboard. Much more relevant information is hospitals are set to lose hundreds of posts, yet the being provided, and is being provided at hospital level. I Department of Health is paying £2.2 billion back to the am surprised by what the hon. Lady has said, given that Treasury and is spending millions on a totally unnecessary we are now publishing more and better data. reorganisation. May we therefore have a debate on the competence of the Department of Health, which is Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): May we have a statement hitting front-line services while not spending its full from the Home Office on the Animals (Scientific budget? Procedures) Act 1986, in the light of revelations from 503 Business of the House18 APRIL 2013 Business of the House 504

[Henry Smith] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): This year in my constituency, Conservative-run Lancashire county council the British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection about has reduced its part of the council tax bill. Pendle serious cruelty during experimentation at Imperial College borough council, run by a coalition between the London? Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, has frozen its part of the council tax bill. Labour’s police and crime Mr Lansley: I know that my hon. Friend has secured commissioner for Lancashire has increased his part of a debate in Westminster Hall on 5 February on the the council tax bill. May we therefore have a debate on regulation of animal experiments and testing. He will how we can help hard-working families with the cost of be aware that the use of living animals in scientific living by keeping council tax low? procedures that may cause pain, suffering, distress or harm is strictly regulated under the Act. Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that I know from working with companies and with the suggestion and think it would be very helpful if we university in my constituency that we have what is, in found such an opportunity. Of course, the debate on the my view, the strongest regime in the world in this Gracious Speech at the start of the next Session might regard, but we must always be vigilant. Home Office well provide an opportunity to talk not just about inspectors are investigating the allegations of cruelty helping councils to fund a council tax freeze for the and bad practice at Imperial college’s Hammersmith third consecutive year but about addressing the issue of campus, and will make recommendations in regard to precepting authorities, too. In the debates on the Finance any action that needs to be taken as a matter of urgency. Bill, we can discuss the fact that we have cancelled However, I cannot prejudice what their investigations Labour’s planned fuel duty increase, which is saving a may lead to. typical motorist £40 a year. We have increased the personal income tax allowance, leading to a cash tax cut Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): My constituent of £267 in the tax year ahead. Those are a range of Louisa Nkang was granted indefinite leave to remain in changes with a direct impact on supporting people with this country in January 2011, but has been waiting for the cost of living during tough times. more than two years for the release of immigration status documents because the authorities say that they are still conducting security checks. The situation is Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): The Leader of the hugely distressing for her, and the UK Border Agency House suggests that we should wait until Foreign Office has given me an unsatisfactory response. What advice questions on Tuesday to raise the issue of Burma, but can the Leader of the House give me? that might be too late. Human Rights Watch’s report on crimes against humanity and against the Rohingya people Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman demonstrates good in Burma is out on Monday and the sanctions will be attendance in the House and he will have seen that a discussed on Monday, so Tuesday will be too late. Will number of Members on both sides have raised issues the Leader of the House urgently raise the subject of about the performance of the Border Agency during a the report with the Foreign Secretary before he goes number of business questions. Ministers at the Home into the debate on EU sanctions? Office are actively aware and engaged and they are reforming the agency. That is why the Home Secretary Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the hon. Lady and I will came to the Dispatch Box and made the announcements of course ask the Foreign Secretary or Foreign Office she did shortly before the Easter recess. I hope that the Ministers about that issue and, if appropriate, whether hon. Gentleman will support Home Office Ministers in there is any update that they can give the House when it seeing those changes through. sits on Monday. 505 18 APRIL 2013 506

Point of Order Finance (No. 2) Bill

11.26 am (Clauses 1, 3, 16, 183, 184 and 200 to 212, Schedules 3 Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): On a point and 41, and certain new Clauses and new Schedules) of order, Mr Speaker. I would welcome your advice and guidance on a matter relating to the answering of questions [2ND ALLOCATED DAY] by the Education Secretary. You will probably know that he has one of the poorest records in the House for Further considered in Committee doing so. I believe that he has been officially chastised for his poor failures, but sadly that appears to have had [DAWN PRIMAROLO in the Chair] little effect. I tabled a number of named day questions to the Secretary of State on 21 March with a named day of the 26th. I received four answers on the due day, but I Clause 1 note that the three Ministers concerned—the Under- Secretary of State responsible for further education, CHARGE FOR 2013-14 skills and lifelong learning, the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock); the Minister for children 11.30 am and families, the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson); Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) and the Minister for Schools—have demonstrated their (Lab): I beg to move amendment 1, page 1, line 7, at end ability to work as a team and collaborate on answers, as add— they all gave me exactly the same answer to four very ‘(1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, within three months different questions. They all said, “I will reply as soon of the passing of this Act, publish a report on the additional rate as possible.” It is now four weeks since I tabled the of income tax. questions and more than three since I received the (2) This report shall review the impact upon Exchequer holding replies. I received one answer today. I am sure receipts of setting the additional rate to 50 per cent. in tax year that you will agree that it is unacceptable for Ministers 2014-15. to ignore questions and I would be obliged if you (3) The report shall review what impact reducing the additional helped me in extracting some proper ones soon. rate for 2013-14 will have on the amount of income tax currently paid by those with taxable incomes of Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for (a) over £150,000 per year; and his point of order, in response to which I have a number (b) over £1,000,000 per year.’. of observations. First, the hon. Gentleman will know the importance that I, as Chair of our proceedings, The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means attach to the delivery by Ministers of timely and substantive (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to replies to parliamentary questions. The Leader of the discuss the following: House and the Deputy Leader of the House are present on the Treasury Bench and I hope that one or other of Clause stand part. them will be good enough to make contact with the Clause 16 stand part. Minister, in the best tradition of Leaders of the House, That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill. to exhort rather faster progress in delivering replies generally and in replying to the hon. Gentleman in Catherine McKinnell: It is a pleasure, Ms Primarolo, particular. to serve under your chairmanship this morning. I shall Secondly, I alert the hon. Gentleman to the fact that speak to the Opposition amendment to clause 1 and the Procedure Committee is monitoring the performance about clause 16, which relate to income tax rates and of Government Departments on this front, and the reliefs. hon. Gentleman might wish to share with the Committee The Opposition believe that politics is about priorities— the evidence he has just reported to the House. about providing support to those who need it most, Lastly, I simply mention to the hon. Gentleman that I rather than to those with the broadest shoulders. This know that the Procedure Committee has been watching has never been more the case than in the country’s particularly closely of late the performance of the current economic climate—a parlous economic climate Department for Education in these matters. I hope that which, let us remind ourselves, has seen just 0.8% growth that is helpful. since autumn 2010, compared with the 5.3% that was forecast at the time. The economy continues to stagnate under this Government, leading to the independent Office for Budget Responsibility halving its predictions for 2013 and anticipating growth of only 0.6% this year, compared with the 1.2% forecast just four months ago. We have surely now reached the stage where we must ask ourselves what further evidence the Chancellor needs before he accepts that his economic plan is catastrophically failing. Once again, I note the lack of Conservative Members on the Government Benches. Perhaps Back Benchers are demonstrating their lack of confidence in the Chancellor’s plan which, I am sure they would agree, is far from acceptable. 507 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 508

[Catherine McKinnell] bank bonuses to fund a guaranteed job—a real job—for every young person who has been out of work for a year The latest criticism of this failure came on Tuesday, or more. I am not sure whether Government Members with the International Monetary Fund downgrading its have had a chance to analyse the long-term unemployment forecast for UK economic growth to 0.7%, in contrast figures published yesterday, but I can tell them that in to its view a month ago, when the IMF said that growth March this year 167,345 adults over the age of 25 had of 1% could be expected. Having subjected the UK to been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for more than the biggest downgrade of any developed country for 24 months. Let me repeat that figure: 167,345 adults 2013 and 2014, the IMF commented: had been out of work for more than two years, compared “In the United Kingdom, the recovery is progressing slowly, with 84,765 in February 2012 and 52,895 in February notably in the context of weak external demand and ongoing 2011. That is a disturbing rise of 97% since February fiscal consolidation.” 2012 and 216% since February 2011. It went on to say: Targeted and urgent action is required if the “Greater near-term flexibility in the path of fiscal adjustment unemployment situation is not to become dangerously should be considered in the light of lacklustre private demand”. entrenched. We believe that it is a totally unacceptable In simple terms, it is time for plan B. state of affairs and that action is needed now to stop people being put on the scrap heap and left there, as Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I am grateful they were under the previous Conservative Government— to my hon. Friend and fellow north-east MP for giving and, of course, so that we do not continue building up way.Does she share my view that yesterday’s unemployment long-term costs for the taxpayer. figures showing an increase of 70,000 were disgraceful? The north-east of England has suffered a disproportionate What we needed from the Budget was a reversal of increase in unemployment, and 12,000 of those 70,000 the Government’s decision to stop tax relief on pension are from the region that she and I both represent. Does contributions for people earning over £150,000 being she agree that this is further evidence of the need for limited to 20% to fund Labour’s compulsory jobs guarantee change, particularly in regions such as the one we share? for long-term unemployed adults. Catherine McKinnell: I very much share the deep Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): Perhaps the concern expressed by my hon. Friend about the figures hon. Lady will remind us of the maximum amount of published yesterday. I hope the Chancellor will start to pension relief an individual could get right up to April pay attention to the effect that his economic plan is 2010, or perhaps a little later. In case she does not know, having on people throughout the country but, I agree, someone could put just over a quarter of a million particularly in the north-east, where unemployment is pounds a year into their pension fund and get higher-rate above 10%, which is a shocking figure and spells deep tax relief, including at 50%. This Government have trouble for the long-term entrenchment of unemployment. lowered that figure to £40,000. I will come to that shortly. As we have heard so often from this out-of-touch Catherine McKinnell: I said that the Budget needed Chancellor, he is not for turning, despite the fact that to be about priorities and that we need to look now at the consequence of his economic failure means that how to help people struggling on the lowest incomes Government borrowing is rising, not falling, with the and ensure that those with the broadest shoulders bear Tory-led coalition set to borrow £245 billon more than the greatest burden. In government, Labour took steps it forecast in autumn 2010. His promise to balance the to ensure that its pension reliefs were fair to those at the books by 2015 will not be met and the national debt will bottom as well as those at the top. This Government not fall until 2017-18 at the earliest. Who knows how have reversed that decision to limit the relief to 20%, many times that will need to be pushed back before the and we have seen the result: the impact across the board Chancellor realises that his plan is not working? is being unfairly borne by those at the bottom. When Of course, that dire situation has led to the downgrading times are as tough as they are now, it cannot be right to of Britain’s triple A rating by Moody’s and the more subsidise the pension contributions of the top 2% of recent decision by Fitch to place the UK on rating earners at more than double the rate for people on watch negative, both of which had been prized by the average incomes who pay the basic rate of tax. However, Chancellor and used as cover for the austerity measures the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats clearly believe he introduced back in 2010. that the time is right to prioritise those earning more At a time when living standards are being squeezed, than £150,000. average earnings are rising at their lowest rate since What we got in this year’s Budget, and in the very the end of 2009, Government borrowing is up, growth first clause of the Finance Bill, is the coalition’s unjustifiable forecasts have been downgraded again, the public services and grossly unfair decision to reduce the top rate of on which people rely are being cut or threatened up and income tax from 50p to 45p, a cut that benefits just down the country, and ordinary people are being asked 267,000 people earning more than £150,000, 13,000 of to pay the price for the Chancellor’s economic failure, whom are lucky enough to earn more than £1 million. what we needed was a Budget that was on the side of Indeed, those lucky few are receiving an average tax cut ordinary, hard-working people and families, increasing of a whopping £107,000 according to HMRC figures. numbers of whom are clearly struggling to make ends Who wants to bung a millionaire indeed? meet. I have no doubt that at this juncture Liberal Democrat As my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North Members will want to trumpet the increase in the (Alex Cunningham) noted, unemployment is rising again. personal allowance—to pipe up and explain that they What we needed was a Budget that would back Labour’s are not prioritising the richest in society over those who jobs guarantee, using money raised from the tax on genuinely need support, but unfortunately for them the 509 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 510 facts state otherwise. Let us remind ourselves of the The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. May I remind analysis of figures published by the independent Institute hon. Members that they are not asking the Chair of this for Fiscal Studies. It shows that taking into account all Committee to answer questions or accusing the Chair the changes to tax credits and benefits introduced since of anything? The use of the word “you” addresses the 2010, households in the UK will, on average, be a Chair directly. It would be good practice to refer to staggering £891, or £17 a week, worse off this financial “hon. Members” or “my hon. Friend” rather than using year. the word “you”, which makes things difficult.

Stephen Williams indicated dissent. Catherine McKinnell: Even some mild empathy from the Chancellor for those bearing the brunt of his catastrophically failing economic plan would be Catherine McKinnell: The hon. Gentleman is chuntering welcome to people up and down the country, who feel from a sedentary position. Does he wish to intervene? that he is extremely out of touch with the reality that they face. Stephen Williams: If you are going to quote from To put the issue into context for Government Members, independent reports, you should not quote— who have willingly voted through this year’s changes, I should say that a two-earner couple with children are The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means losing on average £1,869. The average single parent in (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I am not quoting anything. work will lose £1,226. A two-earner couple with no children will be £672 worse off, while a one-earner family with children will lose an average of £4,000 in Stephen Williams: The hon. Lady should not quote 2013-14. Even worse, this is happening at the same time from reports selectively. Perhaps she should go on to say as 13,000 millionaires are getting a tax cut from this that the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that the top Government worth an average of £107,000. Worst of decile of income earners has been hit hardest by the all, but not surprising given this Government’s shocking combination of Government tax changes. attitude towards women, is research showing that 94% of the cuts to household budgets will directly hit Catherine McKinnell: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman women, while 85% of those on incomes over £150,000—so is quoting selectively in leaving out the fact that the 85% of those who are benefiting from the Government’s greatest impact is on the bottom decile of earners. tax cut—are men. When you take the cuts and changes overall, those at the bottom bear the greatest proportional brunt. 11.45 am That sums up the coalition’s warped sense of priorities Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) in a nutshell—looking after those at the very top while (Lab): I want to support what my hon. Friend has said. making everybody else pay the price for its economic The Chancellor’s own distributional analysis shows that failure. It is made all the more galling by the Chancellor’s the cumulative impact of tax, tax credit and benefit previous promise that we are “all in this together”— measures mean net reductions in income for the poorest although, admittedly, it is a phrase that we hear uttered 4% of households. That is not selective analysis—your from his lips a lot less these days. The Government may own Chancellor’s analysis shows that 40% of the poorest believe that the way to motivate people on low incomes households will be affected. is to pay them less and the way to motivate those on high incomes is to pay them more, but we think that Catherine McKinnell: It is the hon. Gentleman’s own that approach is misguided, at best. In these challenging Chancellor who is quoting selectively from the figures. economic times, our focus should be placed firmly on I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. those who need our support the most. Our amendment therefore calls on the Government to look again at their The facts are clear, and beyond the facts is the reality decision to cut the top rate of income tax. We believe facing households up and down the country. We see that that decision by the Conservatives and Liberal people from those households coming into our constituency Democrats is completely indefensible, and that it is the surgeries week in, week out. We hear stories every day wrong priority at the worst possible time. from families who are clearly struggling to make ends meet. In order for the Chancellor to make a properly informed decision on this vital issue next year, we need a proper The reality of the Chancellor’s failing plan is bearing assessment of the impact of the cut, as well as an out, not just in the statistics but in the reality of people’s analysis of how much the Treasury would gain if the day-to-day lives. The cuts to tax credits and child benefit, additional rate were returned to 50% in 2014-15. The the granny tax, the mummy tax, the appalling bedroom Chancellor, who claims to find tax avoidance “morally tax and the huge hike in VAT, which disproportionately repugnant”, announced his millionaires’ tax cut in Budget impacts on the poorest, hugely outweigh any small 2012 on the grounds that the behavioural response to benefit from the rise in the personal allowance. the 50p rate introduced by Labour was larger than expected. In other words, because some wealthy people Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): My hon. found neat ways to avoid paying the top rate, the Friend is making an excellent case about all the various Chancellor has, in effect, rewarded them with a tax cut. cuts and how they are hitting the most vulnerable in our It would be interesting to see his assessment of the society. Do you think that the Government should be behavioural response to his announcement in view of shedding tears for all those people who will be suffering the extensive media coverage of bankers deferring their from all the cuts? bonuses until this financial year in order to gain from 511 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 512 the lower top rate, but given his apparent continued “The costs and benefits of reducing the additional tax rate to determination to fight European plans to cut bankers’ 45p are both highly uncertain, and could be significantly more or bonuses, I will not hold my breath. less than the cost included in the Budget. We recommend that HMRC publish in due course a comprehensive assessment of the effect on the Exchequer of the new 45p rate.” Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): The hon. Lady is asking for an analysis of what the change in tax rate We agree. We need a full and proper assessment of would do to the Government’s revenues. That is exactly what effect the top rate tax cut has had on tax receipts what the previous Labour Government failed to deliver and we need to be sure that the Government continue to when they made their change. Does she not regret the estimate what the gain would be if the additional rate fact that the Labour Government, in their 13 years in were returned to 50%. We need, as the IFS has previously power, continued to levy a top rate of 40% and then suggested, to get a clear understanding of whether the made their change to the top rate so late in the day that short-run response to this tax cut has been symmetric to it failed to raise any additional revenue either under the introduction of the 50p rate. Will people continue their Government or, because they had not undertaken to use the avoidance techniques that the Government such a behavioural study of what might happen, under clearly believe they employed to avoid the 50p rate, or the Government who followed? will some or all of that activity come to an end as a result of the new 45p rate? The Government should commit to our amendment’s request for such a review, if Catherine McKinnell: I do not follow the hon. they genuinely seek to maximise revenue to the Exchequer Gentleman’s logic that that justifies a non-assessment at and not to give a tax break to their millionaire friends. this stage. He knows very well that there has been a huge intake from the 50p tax rate which this Government fail to acknowledge. He also knows that we suffered a Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The hon. Lady catastrophic international financial crisis in 2008 to is making a good case, particularly on the uncertainty which the Labour Government responded by ensuring about the reduced revenue yield, but even if the Government that those who could bear it most would take the and the Red Book are correct and the loss of yield will highest burden, therefore introducing the 50p tax rate. be only £540 million over the next five years, I am sure This Government took the first opportunity to abolish she will agree that if £540 million is going spare it would it, without even allowing enough time for proper analysis be better to invest it in productive capacity for the of its effect to take place. future, rather than simply give it away in a tax cut that proves that we are not all in this together. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke): The hon. Lady says that there was a huge Catherine McKinnell: The hon. Gentleman makes an intake from the 50p rate of income tax. What is her extremely strong point, and one that I have made repeatedly. evidence for that? This might seem like small change to the Chancellor, but it could make a very big difference to some of the Catherine McKinnell: HMRC’s report, “The Exchequer people affected by his failing economic plan. effect of the 50 per cent additional rate of income tax”, but I will go into that in more detail in due course. I am sure, given the concerns recently expressed by apparently senior Liberal Democrats, that Lib Dem The Prime Minister went on record and said in this Members will join us in calling for a commitment from Chamber that the 50p tax rate was cut because it did their Conservative colleagues in the Government. Indeed, not raise any money—the Minister seems to have just only last month a member of the Liberal Democrat tax made the same assertion—but page 39 of HMRC’s working group stated: report makes it clear that it resulted in a yield of about £1.1 billion, which is hardly a sum to ignore in these “While the Treasury’s own figures about the 50p are highly straitened financial times. However, what stands out questionable, the politics of cutting tax for the very rich make no sense; there is no reason why a 50p rate shouldn’t be part of a most from HMRC’s assessment—this point was also solution for tough times.” raised when we debated last year’s Finance Bill—is the number of times that the words “uncertain” and “uncertainty” appear; I nearly lost count, but it is a Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) staggering 30 times. The Chancellor decided to give a (PC): I agree with many of the hon. Lady’s points. Plaid tax cut to his millionaire pals before we had a clear Cymru will fight the next Westminster election on a picture of the impact of the 50p rate. pledge to reintroduce the 50p rate. Will the Labour That is not just the view of the Opposition. Robert party do the same? Chote, chairman of the Office for Budget Responsibility, stated: Catherine McKinnell: We have made it perfectly clear “This is a judgement based on not even a full year’s data, based from day one that we do not support the cut to the 50p in terms of how people have responded to the 50p rate, in rate now, and we call on the Government to analyse the particular in terms of those self assessment tax-payers.” impact of the introduction and premature removal of The Institute for Fiscal Studies said: the 50p rate. When we come to publish our next manifesto, “By giving out £3 billion to well-off people who pay 50p we will review the state of the economy and whether a tax…the Government is banking on a very, very uncertain amount 50p rate would be the right response. I hope that Members of people changing their behaviour and paying more tax as a of other Opposition parties, as well as Liberal Democrats, result of the fact that you’re taxing them…There is a lot of will support our amendment, because it would help to uncertainty, a lot of risk on this estimate.” establish whether the 50p rate would bring in the additional In its report on the 2012 Budget, the Treasury Committee Exchequer revenue that was anticipated—but if the concluded: Government refuse to back it today, we will never know. 513 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 514

The President of the Liberal Democrats, the hon. and saying that Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), “it gives the wrong message to entrepreneurs thinking of setting said: up a business. The net effect could be to reduce the tax take rather “Cutting the top rate was a stupid thing to do. It probably than increase it.” raised up to £3bn a year. We should pledge to restore the 50p rate It has drawn particular attention to concerns that the at the next election. It’s not enough to be fair, you have to be seen cap will catch owners of genuine commercial businesses to be fair.” who happen to incur a loss, instead of a profit—for example, Their current, or former, Treasury spokesman—I can where a new business is being established; where a never work out which he is—Lord Oakeshott— business is weathering economic conditions and concentrating on simply surviving until the climate has Stephen Williams: He’s never been Treasury spokesman. improved; and where there has been an exceptional level of business expenditure, such as on the purchase of a Catherine McKinnell: Okay. I am pleased that that major item of machinery or the recruitment of additional has been clarified for the record. Other hon. Members staff in anticipation of expansion. will feel the same. The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England Lord Oakeshott said: and Wales has said that the measure “In such hard times, we should never have rolled over when the “will hit small businesses by restricting loss relief for commercial Tories wanted to cut the 50p rate unless we got a mansion tax in losses. The measure will reduce cashflow, hamper business growth return. At the next election, both the mansion tax and a 50p rate and could lead to small businesses that are experiencing difficulty should be at the forefront of Lib Dem tax policy.” in the current economic climate going bust”. I have news for him. Liberal Democrats have had the Surely even this Government would not want that outcome opportunity to vote for the mansion tax, and today they as a result of a Budget measure. I would therefore have the chance to vote for their 50p rate. They do not greatly welcome hearing from the Minister that the need to wait for the next manifesto. They can make it Chancellor might just be for turning on this issue. happen today. Lord Oakeshott’s is an interesting view, however, given the Liberal Democrats’ decision to vote against their own mansion tax policy twice in as many 12 pm months. I would join him, however, in urging his party Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): It is a pleasure colleagues not to roll over for the Tories on this issue, to serve under your chairmanship this morning, but to support our amendment. Ms Primarolo—[Interruption]. We have just made it We are obviously disappointed that our amendment into the afternoon. It is also a pleasure to follow my to clause 16 was not selected for debate. The clause hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne introduces schedule 3, which provides for the cap on North (Catherine McKinnell), who made such a strong 11 named income tax reliefs for amounts greater than case for the Opposition’s amendment to clause 1. It £50,000 or 25% of an individual’s income. This policy is to clause 1 in the main that I wish to address my was first announced in 2012. Like many others, the remarks. Opposition are pleased that this provision no longer This week and in the days leading up to the funeral of includes the original proposal to limit tax relief on Baroness Thatcher, Government Members have been charitable giving. In one of the several U-turns on last proud to proclaim themselves as Thatcherites—no more year’s omnishambles, the Chancellor was forced to back talk of one nation Conservatives or how “We’re all in down on this ill-thought-through policy, which threatened it together”. I was pleased that my hon. Friend spoke the charitable sector with a cut of up to £500 million in about the impact of this Government’s choices. That is income per year. A powerful campaign backed by more what we are talking about today: their choices and than 1,000 charities was given the very simple title, priorities. Proportionately, they are hitting women so “Give it Back, George.” much harder than men, while the benefits they are Several concerns about clause 16 remain, however, seeking to give—reducing the 50p tax rate to 45p—will particularly about its potential impact on entrepreneurialism disproportionately benefit men. and small businesses. The Association of Accounting That was certainly my experience as a woman at Technicians believes that the restriction of small reliefs home caring for my children through the Thatcher on losses runs counter to the Government’s apparent years. I find it almost incomprehensible when I hear commitment to encourage new business start-ups. It people talk about how much she did for women, because stated: that was not my experience, as I genuinely struggled to “In the current economic climate, start-up businesses are likely put food on the table for my children and keep a roof to operate at a loss in their early years, therefore our view is that over their heads. For me, the difference we saw in 1997, an imposition of an arbitrary cap will be a further obstacle to entrepreneurship… Furthermore, existing legislation already prohibits with the birth of a new Labour Government—new in relief for ‘artificial losses’”. every way—was predominantly in the increase in child benefit. That is what changed my ability as a mother to That means that any genuine losses sustained in starting care for my children—to provide for them and give or developing a business should be relievable, in accordance them a better life than I had had. This Government with existing legislation, in a way that enables the have chosen to freeze child benefit, while at the same entrepreneur to recover tax previously suffered as quickly time giving a tax break to 13,000 millionaires and as possible in order to help to fund their new venture. 267,000 people earning more than £150,000. I would be The Chartered Institute of Taxation shares similar interested to hear from the Minister—or from other concerns, describing the cap as a “blunt instrument” Government Members, if it is not just the Minister who that could have an is going to speak on this issue—how many people “adverse effect on genuine businesses and the UK economy” earning more than £150,000 have come to his surgery or 515 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 516

[Fiona O’Donnell] office network is also being put at risk as such small village shops are unable to make a profit. Therefore, we contacted his office to say that times are so tough that risk losing post office services. We are facing that now in they need a tax break. How many people have contacted East Lothian. Post office closures may not be planned, the Treasury to say that? but that may be a consequence of the Government’s economic choices. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): During this It seems almost too simplistic to make this point, but week, from Second Reading onwards, we have seen a Government Members have boasted about the fact that dearth of speakers from the Government Benches, yet the Government are hurting the richest 10% the most. we have also seen a rise in unemployment figures and However, if the Government choose to take £25 a week clear signs that on average people are facing real cuts in from a rich family, it will have a lot less impact than their earnings. Is it not extraordinary that Government taking £17 a week from a hard-working family. Taking Back Benchers seem not to want to speak? that from the richest will not mean they will present themselves at food banks looking for assistance to put Fiona O’Donnell: As ever, my hon. Friend makes food on the table, but that is what the Government are such a reasonable and forceful contribution to the debate. forcing working families increasingly to do. We look This is shocking complacency from Government forward—look forward is perhaps the wrong term—to Members—their constituents and mine will be watching hearing the Trussell Trust’s latest figures on the number them—as unemployment rises and as families face an of people it has fed over the past year. All the indications average cut of £17 a week as a result of all the changes are that the number has increased significantly; it may they have made since 2010. be over 500,000. That is a matter of real concern.

Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I might be Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I am pre-empting what my hon. Friend is about to say, but enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech immensely. On that with these measures are we not seeing a return to the point, just last Thursday, the food bank in Fenton in my discredited policy of trickle-down economics, whereby constituency had its highest number of visitors yet— the Government think that if we give more money to 19 people turned up, whereas normally about eight or the wealthy, they will spend it and boost the economy? nine do so. That is a growing trend on top of a growing However, we know that they are less likely to spend the trend. extra money going into their accounts, whereas people at the bottom, who are really struggling to get by, will Fiona O’Donnell: I am sure that Members on both spend the money we give them. If we are looking at the sides of the House are seeing that in their constituencies. economic impact, it is better to give that money to I hope that Government Members will visit food banks the poorer people. in their communities to understand the causes of food insecurity. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle Fiona O’Donnell: Absolutely, and I thank my hon. upon Tyne North said, it is about the choices the Friend. I was not about to turn to that issue, but I will Government are making and their priorities. Earlier we develop that point as it affects the local economy in heard the most uncomfortable and distorted logic: when East Lothian. the economy was growing, unemployment was falling, East Lothian has a number of small towns, some we were investing in health and helping young people of them market towns. Often, it is the poorest in those into employment, the Labour Government should have communities who spend their money in local shops in taken more money from the rich through a 50p tax rate, the high street; they are not able to take advantage of just for the sake of it; but when the economy is flat-lining, out-of-town supermarkets. Those high streets are struggling. unemployment has just risen again, poverty and the gap The Government are taking money out of local between rich and poor are increasing, it is the right time economies—out of small high streets in East Lothian— for this Government to give a tax break to people which is having a negative effect. One group of businesses earning over £150,000. I cannot follow that logic. is, however, growing in our high streets: pawnbrokers The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has estimated that and high street lenders, which will not improve the lot almost 2.5 million families on low incomes will pay of the most vulnerable in my constituency. £130 more in council tax this year, adding further to the squeeze that working families are suffering. This Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): That point about our Government have made their choice, and I think that, high streets is incredibly important. It is not simply high as they drive towards the next general election, if they streets in Labour constituencies that are suffering. Anyone glance in the rear-view mirror, two hazards will make who attends the meetings of the all-party group for them fail the electoral test. The first is their decision to town centres will know that, even in leafy Conservative scrap the 50p rate of tax. The second is their choice to and, dare I say it, Liberal Democrat seats, high streets introduce a bedroom tax at the same time. There is a are struggling. What evidence is there that the windfall family in Wallyford in my constituency, the Anderson for the richest people in our society will contribute in family. Mr Anderson is a full-time carer for his wife, any way to income in our high streets and in our who has a severe form of epilepsy. He is saving this economy? The money is more likely to be spent in country a small fortune by caring for his wife, but he Bermuda than in Birmingham. does it because he wants to, not because he has to. There are times when he needs not to sleep in the same Fiona O’Donnell: My hon. Friend makes an excellent room as his wife—I have his permission to discuss his point. The problem is not restricted to high streets. In case in this amount of detail—and he needs to be able small rural constituencies, there may be one village to make that choice. He also has a son with spina bifida, shop, where the local post office is located. The post who is now enjoying a degree of independence and 517 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 518 living away from his family, but he can maintain that 12.15 pm independence only by returning home for about three Sheila Gilmore: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the days a week when the weather is bad. Recently, he has debate, as we have been lacking a challenge up to now been at home for longer—so that bedroom is needed for and it is always good to be challenged. He makes an Mark and his equipment. argument about the Laffer curve. I am sure he would I feel ashamed that Mr Anderson should have to agree that if tax rates are zero, you do not get anything, come to see me to ask why the Government are choosing and that if tax rates are 100%, you would probably not to give money to people who are not even asking for it, get anything either. However, the question of where it is when he is going to be taxed for having that bedroom. right to draw the line in between, in any given economic And it is a tax; when the Government take money out situation, is surely a matter for debate. You cannot of people’s pockets, that is a tax. This Government are simply say, “Oh, the Laffer curve says we can’t put tax choosing to make life much more difficult for a man rates up.” who has given up work to care for his wife and to support his disabled son and enable him to live as The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means independent a life as possible. That says a lot about the (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I remind the Committee that Government’s approach, and it does not surprise me the guidance on conventions and courtesies is quite that Government Members are not seeking to contribute clear on the language to be used in the Chamber. Hon. to the debate today. Members will know that “you” refers to the Chair as all remarks are made through the Chair. I would therefore Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Lady will be aware that be grateful if hon. Members would refer to each other the tax cut for people earning more than £3,000 a week by their constituency names, or as “the hon. Member”, was introduced in the last Finance Bill. Members of the “my hon. Friend” or “the Minister”. They should desist parliamentary Labour party abstained in the vote on from saying “you”; otherwise, I might feel the need to that Bill. She has made some pretty strong comments answer the debate as well, and then we would have today. Is she now saying that that abstention was a disorder. We do not want that, do we, Mr Rees-Mogg? catastrophic political mistake? Jacob Rees-Mogg: Ms Primarolo, your answer to the Fiona O’Donnell: No, I am not. I would say that the debate would be so fine that it would hold the rest of us catastrophic political mistakes are most often made on silent. the nationalist Benches. We are stating clearly that, if The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) we were in government today, we would not be scrapping is absolutely right. It is difficult to say at exactly what the 50p rate. There is no ambivalence or doubt about point on the Laffer curve revenue is maximised. As I that. That is the position of Labour Members in the understand it, however, the latest academic studies suggest Chamber. that around 37% is the level at which income tax revenues I appeal to Liberal Democrat Members to remember would be maximised. That is why I would favour the their Lib Dem values, and to all Government Members Government going further and reducing the rate of to think about the people who are contacting them. Are income tax to the level at which it was kept by the they the people who earn more than £150,000 a year, or Labour party when it was in office. are they the families and pensioners who are struggling with the cost of daily living? I urge Government Members Fiona O’Donnell: I did not think that I had spurred to vote according to the representations that they are the hon. Gentleman to speak; given his posture during receiving. my speech, I thought that I had woken him from his slumbers. Do we have another split in the coalition Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): It is here? Lib Dem Members have been criticising the previous a particular pleasure to serve under your chairmanship Labour Government for not having the 50p rate for today, Ms Primarolo. I welcome you back, and I am longer. glad to see you in fine health. I have been spurred on by the hon. Member for East Jacob Rees-Mogg: The coalition is, I am sure, united Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) to speak in the debate and at the highest level, but that does not mean that Back to defend the Government’s policy, which is wise and Benchers do not sometimes disagree. My hon. Friend right and good—[Interruption.] I do not often cheer up the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and the Whips, but if I do so, that will be an added advantage. I often discuss these matters, and we do not invariably The amendment tabled by Her Majesty’s official Opposition agree on every aspect of them. The Lib Dems have their is completely unnecessary and wrong-headed. own particular policies, which they will no doubt put forward in an election campaign, but the coalition at Ian Lucas: The hon. Gentleman said that the large is committed to a single policy. Government’s policy was wise. He is a moral man, so I want to come back to the amendment, which is will he tell me how it can be right for the richest people about getting back to the 50p rate. We already have a in our society to have their income boosted while disabled situation in which the top 1% of taxpayers pay nearly constituents of mine are having theirs reduced? 28% of the total income tax receipts—that is, £50 billion. If the rate of tax is put up to too high a level, people will Jacob Rees-Mogg: Because it does not actually work change their behaviour to alter the amount of tax they like that. We know from experience that high rates of pay. That is very straightforward, and they can do a tax reduce the amount of taxation that is received. The number of things. Some people leave the country, so Laffer curve is not a myth. If you put rates up, tax that their tax is paid overseas. Some work less hard, revenues decline. reducing their earnings to reduce their tax payments. 519 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 520

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] £1 billion. It is therefore difficult to argue that we should get rid of this tax rate, especially as we do not Some use pension funds or legitimate forms of tax yet have all the evidence. We are only beginning to get avoidance to minimise their income. That is all perfectly the evidence now, because people are paying that rate well known by those on the Opposition Front Bench, now. who are a fine and intelligent group of people, yet they try to make political points on the argument about Jacob Rees-Mogg: In fact, HMRC came out with fairness. Fairness seems to me to be about doing what figures showing the tax paid by the highest taxpayers is right. declined; there was a loss in revenue of £6 billion, I think. I would prefer to take the actual figures that Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): It seems to me that come in. I may be disloyal on this point—for which I the argument is not that we should reduce tax so that hope those on the Treasury Bench will forgive me—but people will be kind enough to pay it; rather, we should I think that forecasts from Her Majesty’s Treasury are be looking into closing down tax avoidance schemes. absolutely useless. We do not want to go on economic We should be presenting the moral case that everyone forecasts; we want to follow facts, and the facts on the should be paying in according to their ability to pay, revenue that has historically come in make it clear that particularly in these difficult times. lower rates increase the tax take. Jacob Rees-Mogg: However much we tackle tax Julie Hilling: It is my understanding that, although avoidance, if we set tax rates at so high a level that tax takes went down in the first year when people could people decide not to work, no legislation can force them pre-pay and will definitely go down in this year when to work to earn more. Unless we want to be like the people will post-pay, they rose in the middle year, which Russia of the 1980s, we cannot pass a law to prevent is the one full year when the rate has applied, and for people from leaving the country to work elsewhere if which people are now paying their taxes. the taxes are too high here.

Sheila Gilmore: The point is constantly made that the Jacob Rees-Mogg: The problem with that argument top 1% pay a very high proportion of income tax and is that we have facts that show that the amount of that that makes this measure okay, but presumably they revenue has gone down. Over a three-year period it has pay that because their income is high. The gap in this gone down very substantially, because the rate was country between low-income people and high-income high. The hon. Lady’s comments also serve to illustrate people has widened considerably. That happened under the following point on my behalf, for which I am the Government of the late Baroness Thatcher, but, grateful: when tax rates are raised, people change their admittedly, not enough was done to address it under the behaviour so that the tax they pay is reduced. That is subsequent Labour Government. The point, however, is where the Laffer curve comes in. Income is reduced that if people are paying so much, it is because they when tax rates are too high. have the income to do so. Kerry McCarthy: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady almost makes my is a student of behavioural psychology, as he is of so argument for me. In 1979, that hallowed year in which many other subjects, so can he explain why the Government the great lady to whom she referred came to office, the believe that if we give more money to wealthy people highest rate of income tax was 98%, and the proportion that encourages them to work harder, whereas the lower of income tax revenues paid by the top 1% was about paid are encouraged to work harder if we give them less 10%. When the rate fell, the proportion paid by the top money? 1% went up, so more money came from the richest in society when rates were lower. Lower rates of taxation Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady—my near neighbour, therefore resulted in the advantage of an increase in as she represents a Bristol constituency—is very wise revenue for the Government and the ability to spend and does, I am sure, understand this point. The answer more on the services deemed necessary. is that the question being asked differs between benefits This argument was proved in 1979 when the rate went and earnings, although the argument is essentially the down from 98% to about 60% and again in 1988 when it same. Inevitably, where there is a level of benefits that went down from 60% to 40%. On both occasions, the discourages people from working, if that increases more amount of tax revenue increased because people were slowly, it encourages people to work. It is an identical willing to work harder and people were attracted to argument to the one that says people keep more of the work in this country—so the burden was, indeed, put money they earn if taxes are set lower. on to the shoulders of those best able to bear it. An argument is made about fairness. We say it is Sheila Gilmore: The problem for many people at fairer to have a high rate of tax. We say that that is present is that the jobs simply are not out there. In my symbolically right—that we should have it so that people speech on Monday I explained that I had used the know they are doing something difficult and we are all Government’s new universal job match. When I put in in this together—but what is the symbolism of saying to “shop assistant” on behalf of a constituent of mine, people we will take less tax from them, and what is the I discovered there were 76 entries, which sounds good, symbolism of having lower revenue for the Government? but 57 of them were for vacancies all over the region, not just in my city, and involved going around delivering Julie Hilling: Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs catalogues and trying to sell things to people. Those are says that in the one year when the 50% tax rate applied, the kinds of so-called “jobs” that are out there, and that revenues went up—the figure it is currently giving is explains why people cannot find work. 521 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 522

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am always doubtful when people my outgoings; I cannot afford to live”, because of the are sniffy about jobs that people take. I and others in low level of their income and the apparent inability of the Conservative party voluntarily go around knocking the benefits system now to support them? on people’s doors trying to sell them party policies. That is known as canvassing, and I wish I got paid for Jacob Rees-Mogg: I obviously do not know about the that activity, but I do it out of the goodness of my individual cases that come to the hon. Gentleman’s heart. I do not think one should be sniffy about jobs surgery, but with a benefits bill for this country of that people might apply for; they are all welcome and all £220 billion a year, there really ought to be— valuable. Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): And Fiona O’Donnell: The hon. Gentleman is completely rising. out of touch on this point. The point is not that people are being sniffy, picky or choosy about jobs. The point Jacob Rees-Mogg: It is rising, as the hon. Gentleman is that someone might live in Edinburgh East while the says. There is a huge amount of money in the benefits job is in Fife, and we do not all have drivers and system. If it is not going to the right people, that will be chauffeurs to take us to Fife to do the job. rectified by the reforms being pushed through by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Jacob Rees-Mogg: I wish I was in this fortunate Pensions, which are some of the Government’s most position of having a chauffeur or driver to take me to ambitious and important changes. Fife to get a job. When I tried for a job in Fife in 1997, I was distinctly unsuccessful, and came back to a job in 12.30 pm London, but that is slightly beside the point. To go back to morality, I believe that it is immoral to The overall point is that income at whatever levels take more than half of somebody’s earnings in taxation. has a determinant effect on the employment people seek and the work they are willing to do. That applies to I will finish on the point that has been raised about benefits— paying benefits at too high a level can create the economic benefit of money depending on where it a benefit trap that makes it not worthwhile for people to goes, and whether it is better going into the pocket of apply for jobs—and it applies very clearly to high tax somebody on benefit who will spend it immediately or rates when people decide not to earn. going into the pocket of somebody on £150,000 a year. That economic argument has been taken to an extreme point that ignores many other aspects of the movement Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): There is some of money. There is a basic economic principle that research that counters part of the hon. Gentleman’s money must find a home. Unless the person who earns argument. In the 1980s in Germany they found that if £150,000 a year stuffs his mattress with £5 notes, their the income of people on very high salaries is increased, money goes into the economy—[Interruption.] they want to take more time off to enjoy it. There comes a point when they have so much income that what they want is time, not more money. The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. I ask hon. Members to desist from commentary during the contributions of other hon. Members. Jacob Rees-Mogg: As always, the hon. Gentleman makes a very interesting point, but if we aggregate across society at large, the determining factor will be Jacob Rees-Mogg: Unless such money is put in a that people want to earn more money. Although some mattress, it has an effect, because it goes into the banks. individuals may prefer leisure, of course, many will As hon. Members know, the banks have been short of want to continue earning to increase their standard of capital to lend out and short of deposits. living or to provide for future generations. We are slightly moving away from the point, however, and there Kelvin Hopkins: My study of economics, which I also are some key aspects to which I wish to return. used to teach, always showed that the rich have a lower marginal propensity to consume than the poor. If we I mentioned fairness. It is a bizarre definition of want to drive economic growth, we should give money fairness to say that it is fair to set tax rates at a level that to poor people because they spend it immediately in the raises less tax. That is an argument that makes PR and domestic economy, rather than hiding their surplus spin and the like much more important than the realities cash in tax havens abroad. of economics, and it is bad politics as well as dreadful economics. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman I also want to tackle the question of the morality of for that intervention, because it demonstrates an unduly taxation. Is it morally right that people should pay half simplistic approach. Indeed, poorer people may have a their earnings over to the Government? I think it is higher propensity to spend than richer people, but that morally wrong. I think there is a moral case for low is not the end point of the economic cycle. There need taxation and allowing people to keep the fruits of their to be deposits in banks so that money can be lent to labours, and when the rate gets to 50% that is simply too businesses—small businesses as well as large—and so high in a moral sense, even if it is economically successful, that people can take out mortgages. There is a cycle and which it is not. I do not believe the state has the right to a flow of money. take half of somebody’s earnings. Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Will the Robert Flello: Is it morally right that time and again hon. Gentleman explain why, when I speak to banks—I constituents come to my surgery with the figures in had a conversation with Barclays bank not many weeks front of them, saying, “This is my income and these are ago—they say that they do have deposits and the ability 523 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 524

[Andy McDonald] I said earlier, some studies show would be the perfect rate to maximise revenue, encourage people to work to lend, but that money is not flowing out because hard and continue us on our path to success. people are not approaching them? Is that the reason or is it that the terms on which they propose to lend money Andy McDonald: It is a pleasure to serve under your are so onerous that the transactions do not proceed? chairmanship, Mr Hood. Whichever it is, my understanding is that the banks do I will address the amendment directly. The lowering have the funds. of the top rate of income tax to 45p will benefit 267,000 people who earn more than £150,000. In my view, it Jacob Rees-Mogg: One of the major flaws that led to cannot be right that those who earn more than £1 million the banking crisis was that loan-to-deposit ratios across a year will receive a tax cut of more than £100,000. the banking sector were out of kilter. Banks were lending Families across the country will be £891 worse off on more than they had on deposit and were therefore average as a result of the Chancellor’s changes to tax, entirely dependent on the wholesale market. The wholesale tax credits and benefits since 2010. I am at a loss as to market dried up, which led to a huge calling in of loans. how that fits with the concept that we are all in it That was at the heart of the financial crisis. together. The 1% cap on tax credits and working-age The banks may be saying that they are more comfortable benefits means a cut in real terms. At the bottom, with their loan-to-deposit ratios, but if one looks at the inflation outstrips increases in earnings, whereas at the figures, even HSBC’s loan-to-deposit ratio—for its UK top, earnings outstrip inflation. business, rather than its international business—is about Acres of copy have been written about Baroness 100%. Historically, banks have been more comfortable Thatcher over the past week, but one of her utterances in the 70% to 80% range. We therefore do need more that has not received the attention that it deserves is her savings in the economy and those come from the better-off expression of disappointment that, despite having made saving some of the income that they earn. it possible for a small minority of people to gain control of the majority of the wealth of this country, that has Kelvin Hopkins: The hon. Gentleman seems to be not given rise to a greater degree of charity or generosity. making a powerful case for the reintroduction of exchange Interestingly, it is often those who have the least who controls, so that money made in the domestic economy give the most. Two examples of such generosity are goes into the domestic banks and helps us all. imprinted on my mind. The first was in 1984, when people from my community made regular trips up to Jacob Rees-Mogg: I do not agree with the hon. Easington colliery with bags and boxes of food to assist Gentleman on that at all, because this country attracts a families in County Durham who were finding life such huge amount of foreign investment. Sticking to the a struggle. example of the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking The second example is from recent weeks, when I Corporation, that company was able to ease its way visited one of the five food banks in my constituency through the financial crisis because it could lend its run by the Trussell Trust. It was heartbreaking to hear overseas deposits to its British business. It was on the from the local director of the trust, Nigel Perrott, that backs of savers in Hong Kong and China that HSBC food parcels were being sent to my town of Middlesbrough was secure during that period. from places such as York and Thirsk. He hails from the Rich people saving their income is a good thing home counties and credits people in that part of the economically because it boosts the pool of saving that is country with tremendous generosity. However, he said available for productive investment, such as loans to that he had been surprised and overwhelmed by the businesses and individuals. Even if the argument were generosity of the people of Middlesbrough. When they right that this policy is a great boondoggle for the come out of the supermarkets, they do not donate the wealthy, which it is not, it would be beneficial because it occasional tin of beans or packet of rice, but bags and would help the economy get back on to a path to bags of food. It seems that everything changes, but growth by providing the capital that is needed for the nothing changes. It is perhaps no coincidence that such banks to lend. desperate need arises when the Conservative party is in In summary, it is clear that putting rates up leads to power. less tax. That is not a sensible thing to do when the We used to hear a lot from the Prime Minister about Government are short of money. It is not fair, indeed it the big society, although a lot less so recently. The is unfair, because it puts a greater burden on other genuine big society is, as it ever was, ordinary people members of society who have less ability to pay. It is not looking after each other. morally defensible because high rates of tax are not a moral good and low rates a moral evil; in fact, it is the Robert Flello: I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s other way round. People have a right to keep the money contribution, albeit that it is tinged with quite a lot of that they earn, unless the state can show that it is despair. To reinforce his point, last Saturday a trolley essential to take it. That is economically beneficial push organised by the Trussell Trust gathered more because one of the great problems of our economy is a than 325 kilos of food from the people of Stoke-on-Trent lack of saving. We are not in the paradox of thrift for the people of Stoke-on-Trent. circumstance, in which excess savings deflate the economy. For all those reasons, the amendment should be Andy McDonald: My hon. Friend makes a telling rejected and Her Majesty’s Government should be proud point and I would not want to diminish the importance of what they have done. Indeed, they should go further of what I am saying by qualifying what he said about and look to get the higher rate of tax down to 40% and despair. As in his constituency, this Friday we will have perhaps even to that magic figure of 37%, which, as a wonderful demonstration of generosity in my constituency 525 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 526 with the same sort of event—a trolley push. My point, are talking about hundreds of millions of pounds, and however, which I wish to reinforce, is that there is such a that is further evidence of the Government’s direction spirit of determination and people are so resilient that of travel that punishes and penalises those in greatest they will not be beaten by this situation. However, they need. This is not about lottery wins but much-needed will come through it not because of this Government capital and income streams that pay for vital and lifelong but despite them. care and support for physiotherapy, speech therapy, While tax cuts are being handed out to millionaires, transport and accommodation. 40% of children in my constituency are living in poverty. Without the ability to secure those services from such I cannot see how fairness and the apparent principles of funds, those with traumatic brain injuries and spinal a big society are influencing or informing this Government’s cord injuries will have to look to the statutory services policies one iota. I do not wish to dwell too much on the as there is nowhere else for them to go. As everyone in negativity, but it is unavoidable given that my constituency this Committee is aware, those services are under incredible is the second worst in the country for long-term pressure, and the Bill means that those innocent people unemployment. We are asking for fair treatment. North-east will not be able to go out and purchase the services that England is the only net exporting region in the country; they need. Somebody suffering from a spinal cord injury our contribution to the national economy is massive but must rely on when the district nurse can get to their the people see little of the benefits. It is about fairness. home to attend to their intimate and personal needs, The Prime Minister and Chancellor have repeatedly rather than use funds that would otherwise be available said that those with the broadest shoulders should bear to get on with their lives. the largest load. They claim that the 45p tax rate raises Not only does the Bill remove significant sums of more revenue, but one data point is totally unreliable, as money from the economy, it delivers a windfall to has been exposed in the Chamber today. It is also clear insurance companies. They will be rubbing their hands that the richest will arrange their affairs, especially while innocent victims are left without redress. To add when such a reduction was so well telegraphed. The insult to injury, the compensation recovery unit will be richest have benefited most from our society, and the deprived of millions of pounds through this system. We amount of tax they pay is proportionately more than are kissing goodbye to the recovery of benefits, the their numbers, but proportionately less than their wealth. disability living allowance, jobseeker’s allowance and so Relative to their income, the Chancellor’s biggest tax on. That money will stop flowing into the nation’s rise—that on VAT—hurts those at the bottom most. coffers. I wonder whether the Treasury realises that it is The rich still do very well, with company directors cutting off its nose to spite its face. getting inflation-busting pay increases, and bank executives getting huge bonuses, which the Prime Minister went to Geraint Davies: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Brussels to defend. his enormous generosity in giving way. I have a schedule from a constituent that details his personal means. Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): The Until the beginning of this month he had £21.25 a week Committee may already know, and people will be interested left for food and clothing after paying his utility bills to hear that, in the past two years, pay increases for the and allowing £6 for bus fares. After the introduction of top 10% were on average 5.5% in both years. The top the empty bedroom tax, which will cost £10.31, he will 10% have increased their pay by 11%. The Government end up with under £11 a week for food. Some problem claim that the rich are making a greater contribution, could happen along the lines mentioned by my hon. but they have very thick wallets to start with and, Friend, but assuming that nothing else is needed, he will frankly, are sitting comfortably. have just £11 a week. We would not want that desperate situation to happen in a developing country, let alone in Andy McDonald: That is exactly right. I was going to Britain. How can we justify giving money to the richest make that point another way and say that company when people are in despair and poverty? directors of the FTSE 100 received on average a 50% pay rise in 2011—Income Data Service provided that Andy McDonald: I absolutely agree. People are getting information. The well-off enjoy the benefits of many down to the pennies, not the pounds, yet this month interesting incentive schemes that are not available multimillionaires will get an extra £2,000 a week. We to ordinary working people such as Mrs O’Reilly or should be thoroughly ashamed of delivering that to our Mr Hussain in my constituency, where the average people. I sometimes wonder what on earth we mean by income for a full-time employee is less than £500. patriotism in our land. We can wave our flags and hold the necessary ceremonial events, but where do the people come in? For my money, patriotism must be about our 12.45 pm people. We sometimes lose sight of that and get confused With your indulgence, Mr Hood, I would like to by the panoply and array of colourful images of patriotism mention another area where I perceive there to be that do not go to the heart of the living and working immense financial irresponsibility. A measure has gone conditions of our people. through the House this week that has deprived the Treasury of significant funds that could be much more Geraint Davies: My hon. Friend mentions patriotism, wisely invested and directed. The Enterprise and Regulatory which reminds me of yesterday’s great spectacle of Reform Bill was discussed in the Chamber some days Baroness Thatcher’s funeral, which many people would ago, and I asked myself whether any conversation had have enjoyed watching on television. However, let us taken place between the Treasury and other ministerial not forget that that £10 million would have kept my colleagues. As a result of that Bill, many people who constituent going on his previous income for 10,000 years, have sustained catastrophic injuries will not be able to and on his new income for 20,000 years. Is that not a secure the compensation that they deserve or need. We disgrace? 527 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 528

Andy McDonald: My hon. Friend’s point is well made The economic argument that my hon. Friend the —he expresses it well. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) advanced about I shall conclude by highlighting the lack, as I perceive money going back into local economies is extremely it, of any conversion among Departments. There is a strong. People on the lowest incomes tend to spend desire to offer assistance to the insurance industry, money immediately, so it goes immediately back into which will no doubt be delighted that it will no longer the local economy and helps the local high street. Local have to pay compensation to people in the circumstances businesses are going bust because people simply do not I have described. I strongly suspect that the measure have the money to spend. They are struggling. They are will not help our industries one jot—I do not foresee turning to food banks—they are unable to buy food, any massive reduction in the employers’ liability premiums never mind Christmas presents, clothes and the rest that will be charged as a result of the measure—and, of it. frankly, the insurance industry is laughing all the way to Local economies are struggling enormously. We have the bank. I do not know whether it is laughing with or heard from many wise sources that the Chancellor at the Government, but in any event, it is has received needs to get his act together on stimulating the economy, a fabulous return at the country’s expense. and putting the money in the pockets of people who All that is happening in the run-up to workers memorial have the lowest incomes, who will then use it immediately day. It saddens me immensely that we will commemorate in the local economy, is one way of doing so. That is not the dead and fight for the living on that day when happening, which is why the Opposition are so angry employers know that the regulations we have fought so about the cut in tax from 50% to 45% when there is an hard to introduce to our workplaces to promote a safety enormous squeeze on those on lower incomes. culture have no teeth whatever. As a result of the One of the most insidious changes is the change to measures, there will be an increase in deaths and serious tax credits. They are difficult to explain because they injuries in the workplace. That, too, will be visited on have been designed to suit each individual household, the statutory services. We are compounding error on which makes it more difficult to speak about them in a error. I urge the Government to think carefully about more general sense. Nevertheless, let us look at the the impact of those policies. changes. First, there has been an increase in the tax The point is well made that the Treasury is defending credit clawback. The whole point of tax credits is that the rich and powerful against ordinary working people. they are an incentive for people to work if they can find The reflex of Government Members is to protect the it. Many who are on low incomes cannot get more powerful against the powerless; those with a voice against hours, and the maximum amount that many can be the voiceless; and those who control the wealth of this paid for the hours they work in a full-time week still nation against those who build it. qualifies them for tax credit. Any reduction in that tax credit is therefore counter-productive—it does not help Several hon. Members rose— people at all. The child care tax credit has also been reduced. That The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. Before is another seemingly mad policy. The money is desperately I call the next speaker, I should say that I am mindful needed to help people to work. The family element of to call the Minister at 1.15 pm. Hon. Members should tax credit has been abolished, as has the 50-plus element, therefore bear that in mind when they make their and the working tax credit has been frozen. Given contributions. current inflation, the proposed cap of 1% on increases in working tax credit and child tax credit is effectively Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I rise to support the another cut—it is a cut in what lower-income families proposals in the names of my hon. Friends. can buy with the money they have, with the catastrophic On the one hand, Government Members accuse Labour effect that all hon. Members see in our local economies Members of always wanting to clobber the rich, but on and high streets. the other they accuse us of not introducing the 50p rate In Wales alone, the tax credit measures will suck early enough. We had a vibrant economy, but everything some £794 million—much-needed money for lower-income changed with the enormous banking crisis in 2008. In families—out of the economy. The whole point of tax response, we had to introduce a deficit reduction plan, credits was that they were calculated on what it was part of which was the perfectly logical introduction of reasonable for a family to live on, which helped those the 50p tax rate. whose earnings did not meet that rate to keep going. I make no apology for Labour’s firm commitment to the redistribution of wealth through the taxation system. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): In communities The majority of citizens in western European democracies such as mine and that of my hon. Friend, the poor share that view. The taxation system is not the only spend money—they have no saving capability. Does she redistribution mechanism. Other mechanisms include agree that the measures therefore have a double impact the minimum wage, which the Labour Government on local shops and economies? introduced. I hope the Government retain the minimum wage and increase it year on year in line with inflation. Nia Griffith: My hon. Friend makes a good point. It worries me that it is going up by only 1.9% this year, That is the iniquity of the cut from 50% to 45%. while inflation races ahead. It is important that we have Effectively, a cut in one place unfortunately means that such mechanisms, but taxation is an important mechanism people suffer in other places. Those on the highest in the redistribution of wealth. The vast majority of incomes can afford to cushion themselves and do not people in this country recognise the need for all to need to spend money straight away. Even someone who contribute to the many public services we enjoy, and the earns just £10,000 above the £150,000 mark will benefit need for some redistribution through the taxation system. significantly. Instead of paying £5,000 in tax, they will 529 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 530 pay £4,500. They will have a gain after tax of £500. the gap between the haves and the have-nots is narrow Most people do not see anything like that increase in and in which we protect and look after our most vulnerable their income—incomes are frozen. If someone earning people. I believe that to be intuitively right and just, and £50,000 has even a 1% increase, they will not get that there is also significant evidence to show that a fairer £500 because it would be taxed. With all the different society benefits everybody in respect not only of life changes that are being imposed on them, families are expectancy improvements and mental health benefits, losing far more—they are losing, on average, £895 per but of educational attainments, improvements in social year. mobility and in rates of offending. All of us benefit from having a fairer society. Unfortunately, the measures Geraint Davies: My hon. Friend will know that the in this Bill contribute not one jot to such a society. Government’s alleged strategy is that the private sector As I said in my speech on the Budget a week or so will move in and generate growth as the public sector is ago, this Government absolutely fail the anti-poverty pulled back. In Wales, there is a higher proportion of test. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon public sector employment and, as she has said, £790 million Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) mentioned the analysis will be taken out of demand, and savings rates among by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, but there are also people in work are increasing because of insecurity. The those of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, the Child whole concoction is pushing Wales and similar regions Poverty Action Group, the Resolution Foundation, the into negative growth. Does she agree that we should New Economics Foundation—and the list goes on. stimulate growth by giving more money to people who They all reached the same conclusion: the poorer people are poor, because they spend it? are, the worse off they are. Nia Griffith: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Raising the personal allowance does little for the We should get more stimulus into the economy and get lowest-paid workers, many of whom do not pay tax more people into work doing useful things, such as anyway. Over 682,000 working families receiving child through infrastructure projects, which he has championed tax credit earn less than £6,420, so I am afraid that they in our local area. It certainly does not help to have more will not benefit at all from the increase in the tax people thrown out of work. It will obviously lower their threshold. Taken in conjunction with the welfare cuts incomes immediately, but it will also have a direct effect they are now facing, the lowest earning taxpayers will on the local economy. receive an income boost of 32p a week or £16.80 a year as compared with those not claiming housing benefit or 1pm council tax benefit of up to £112 a year. That does not What I find most worrying is the amount of destitution. take into account the impact of the 20% VAT hike back We all know that benefit rates have never really been set in 2011, the additional 26% rise in food prices since at rates that are entirely able to cover people’s needs. We 2009 or the 20% increase in energy costs that households know that there has always been a compromise. This face on their household bills. Nearly 8,000 households year’s decision to raise benefits only by 1%—less than in my Oldham East and Saddleworth constituency—nearly the rate of inflation—is absolutely unprecedented. Not one in four—already live in fuel poverty. How are they even in Thatcher’s time was that done. We are now meant to cope? As other Members have said, our seeing as a result that people simply cannot make ends constituency surgeries are crammed with families that meet. are desperate about how they are going to cope in the The bedroom tax affects 46% of the working age coming weeks and months. My constituency now has a families in social housing who get housing benefit in food bank—the first ever in modern Oldham—and the Wales—40,000 homes. It is actually a cut, as there is number of recipients of food bank support has trebled nowhere else for them go; they have no alternative. The over the last quarter. I am deeply concerned about that. housing stock has already been allocated and some people on the waiting list do not qualify. With two Geraint Davies: I visited the food bank in my own adults and two children under 10—or two children of constituency only last Monday, and the key issue put to the same sex under 16—families do not qualify for a me was that food banks were designed as places of crisis three-bedroom house. As I say, it is just a cut. People are able to give two or three parcels to people in the consequently unable to buy food and now have to go to moment of crisis—for instance, when benefits had been food banks. They are unable to pay their fuel bills and delayed or something had gone wrong. They were not unable to pay their rent bills. designed to sustain life over time. I mentioned earlier a All that seems to me to be mad. The cost of it all to constituent whose money available for food had gone the public purse will escalate in the long term. To get it down from £21 to £11; he just cannot cope on an right, we should keep a redistributive taxation system ongoing basis. If the food banks do not save him, he is and keep the 50p rate of tax for the top earners. That on the way out. would allow us more flexibility in dealing with those on the lowest incomes. That would be much fairer, and I Debbie Abrahams: My hon. Friend makes an excellent think that the majority of people in this country firmly point. We are not talking only about people on out-of-work believe in fairness—and that is what they would like benefits either, as many of the families affected are to see. working families that are struggling to survive. As I have mentioned, the Chancellor’s own distributional Debbie Abrahams: It is a pleasure to serve under your analysis shows that the cumulative impact of tax, tax chairmanship, Mr Hood. credit and benefit measures means net reductions in I came to this House just over two years ago, and the income for the poorest 40% of households in the country. main reason I got into politics was my belief in making Although there is strong evidence to show, as other Britain a fairer society—a more equal society in which countries have shown, that increasing the spending 531 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 532

[Debbie Abrahams] Geraint Davies: Every week during Prime Minister’s Question Time the Leader of the Opposition asks why, power of the poorest families helps to boost economies, at a time when there is so much poverty and a need for the Chancellor has done nothing to help them or the austerity, the richest in society are benefiting from a cut economy. in the 50p income tax rate, and the Prime Minister In the short term, the Child Poverty Action Group replies, “We will raise more money from the 45p rate has estimated that between 2010 and 2015 absolute than from the 50p rate.” We all know why that is, and child poverty will have increased by 600,000 as a result the Minister knows why it is. It is because rich people of the Government’s spending plans. Two wards in my are able to manage their affairs and can move their constituency have child poverty levels affecting nearly income between tax years, and in this instance they will one in two households. That is absolutely unacceptable simply move it into the 45p year. The Minister knows in a society such as ours. It leads one to question what that, and he also knows that if we retained the 50p rate the Government mean when they say they are committed on a sustained basis, we would gather more money. to child poverty, let alone how they are fulfilling their The Minister shakes his head with a smug expression, obligations under the Child Poverty Act 2010. but he knows that, and he also knows that many people I also have deep concerns about the impact, particularly already pay 52p in the pound. Those with incomes of of the new benefit changes, on people with disabilities. £32,000 or £42,000 are paying 40% in tax plus 12% in One in four disabled people already live in poverty, and national insurance. The Minister’s claim that we could with the recent welfare changes that is set to increase. I not possibly have a 50p rate because all those rich fear that this could be enough to drive people over the people would get on their yachts and leave Britain is edge. absolute rubbish. Many of us have already said that these measures are ideologically driven. In tandem with the downgrading Mr Gauke: Let me make two points. First, I do not of equality and human rights in the Enterprise and know whether the hon. Gentleman has read the HMRC Regulatory Reform Bill, which we debated on Tuesday, report on the 50p rate, but if he has, he will have seen it is clear that this coalition Government have no that a large element of the loss is due to a reduction in commitment to a fairer society. As we have heard before, economic activity, and has nothing to do with tax this is all about choices, and it is quite clear where this avoidance. Secondly, I am afraid that he has got his Government’s priorities lie. Their response to their failing facts wrong: people stop paying 12% in national insurance economic policies is to give tax breaks to the wealthiest contributions as soon as they reach the higher-rate in society—£3 billion to more than 300,000 people threshold. earning over £150,000 a year, with an average gain of £10,000. What is there for people on low pay? Absolutely Geraint Davies: That is not my understanding. According nothing. When we take the tax and tax credit benefits to the Minister’s own analysis of economic activity, into account, we realise that it is not just the poor who which he mentioned, the yield from a 50p rate would are being hit. We know that the average loss to households be greater over a period. The analysis factors in the for this coming financial year is £891. behavioural change to which I have referred, namely The Chancellor said in last year’s autumn statement rich people moving their incomes around. It is also that we needed a welfare system that we could afford. the case that people are paying the rates to which I Tax credits and benefits form part of the “automatic referred. I have commissioned research from the House stabilisers” that help dampen economies in booms and of Commons Library. It is all very well for the Minister boost it in recession. That is what we have seen. In spite to sit there nodding away, but that is the fact of the of the disappointing employment figures yesterday, the matter. It is completely unjustifiable that, at a time effect on unemployment has been less during this recession when the incomes of some of my constituents are being and in the past because of these stabilisers. reduced to about £11 a week and they are on a starvation The choices the Government make are underpinned diet, his rich friends should be enabled to have this extra by their ideology—to create an “us and them” culture money. with power and wealth retained by the wealthy and powerful. By attacking universal benefits such as child The Minister continues to resist calls for a bankers’ benefit, they hope people will start to see our welfare bonus tax. At one moment he claims that bankers system as irrelevant—and then quietly dismantle it. I should be taxed in that way, and at the next moment he am proud of our model of social welfare, born out of gives them 5p back. It is absolutely preposterous. The the second world war when we literally were “all in it Minister hopes that the food banks that are now emerging together”. I want to retain this model with its principles in their thousands will help to cope with the Dickensian of inclusion, support and security for all, protecting any circumstances that he is causing, in which people are one of us, should we fall on hard times, assuring our starving in their own homes, but, as I have already dignity and the basics of life, and helping us all back on pointed out, unless a supplement to the social security our feet. It is often said that the mark of a civilised system is introduced such people will not be able to society is how we care for our most vulnerable. It is a survive. mark of this Government, their ideological priorities The Minister is pushing us into a situation in which and their economic incompetence that they are singularly the state is withdrawing in the hope that the charitable failing to do that. Fortunately, as recent opinion polls sector will help to sustain certain very poor communities. have shown, the British public are seeing through this It is absolutely appalling. We have a dementor Government Government. They are exposing and seeing through the who are sucking the lifeblood out of our poorest myths peddled by this Government. I shall leave it there communities. Those people want to spend their money, to allow more hon. Members to participate in the and would otherwise be reviving our local economies. debate. All that they want is a chance to work, and to do a job. 533 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 534

We should be investing in infrastructure, skills and income tax and containing no acknowledgment that it connectivity. We should be marketing local areas and was an anti-growth measure which was not helping the helping businesses to succeed and create jobs, rather United Kingdom to grow, which was sending a signal than taking away the demand in those local areas. We that the UK was not open for business, and which was should also be promoting spending. At present everyone higher than the rates imposed by many of our competitors. is saving instead of spending because they are scared of The third part of her speech set out her opposition to the future, but we do not want a future of fear; we want the cap on reliefs contained in clause 16 and schedule 3. a future of hope. We do not want a future of division; [Interruption.] The hon. Lady says that concern is not we want a future that cares and a future that works. We opposition, but what she said sounded an awful lot like want a “one nation” Britain, rather than a divided and opposition to me. weak society moving forward under the Tories. I hope that the Minister will think again about the Kelvin Hopkins: As the Minister may know, in Denmark need for those with the broadest shoulders to make the standard rate of income tax is about 30% and the the highest contribution, rather than just smirking with higher rate is about 60%. Denmark has a very successful his colleagues. I would guess that they—in their richer economy. High tax rates do not equal poor economic communities in the divided Britain whose divisions they performance. are accentuating—will not have to deal with the number of people who approach our surgeries in despair, asking Mr Gauke: The fact remains that the 50p rate was what they can do with the very limited amount of higher than the rates imposed by many of our competitors. money that they have. It was also considerably higher than the rate imposed by the hon. Gentleman’s party, a rate that stood at 40p Some of the changes in the Budget are completely for 155 of the 156 or so months during which his party unnecessary. The bedroom tax was originally expected was in office. I appreciate that he has always been very to raise £490 million. The figure has just been revised to consistent in this regard, and I assume that he considers £400 million, but in fact the tax will raise no money at even the 50p rate to be too low. all. It was supposedly intended to confront the problem of rising housing benefit costs, which have doubled over Kelvin Hopkins indicated assent. the last 10 years, but we know that 70% of that rise was due to the fact that not enough houses were being built Mr Gauke: I thank the hon. Gentleman for confirming and private-sector rents were going up. The displacement that. However, I am not entirely clear about the principled into the private sector of people who are being punished position of those on his party’s Front Bench. I do not because their children have grown up will simply increase know whether they think that 50p, 60p, 45p or 40p is housing benefit costs further. the right rate. The Minister knows in his heart, and from the analysis, that such changes are unnecessary. They will not raise Catherine McKinnell rose— money, so why make them? Why not let the rich pay a little bit more towards the public good? Even if the Mr Gauke: I will give way to the hon. Lady, who may bedroom tax does raise £400 million, the Minister is provide me with an answer. spending £12 billion on ever-increasing tax thresholds. While that in itself is welcome, the fact remains that Catherine McKinnell: Is the Minister seriously blaming these changes are about choices. If the Minister’s choice the 50p tax rate for stagnating growth? If so, can he is to give the richest more and hand a bit from the very explain why, although the Government removed the poorest to the squeezed middle, he is taking the wrong 50p rate in this year’s Budget, the Office for Budget direction in terms of the prosperous and united Britain Responsibility has downgraded its growth forecast for that I believe we all want to see. each of the next three years?

1.15 pm Mr Gauke: We know what the big issues are with growth. We are having to deal with the aftermath of the Mr Gauke: Let me say something about clauses 1 and financial crisis, with the eurozone crisis, with high 16. Clause 1 deals with the income tax charge for commodity prices and with the terrible fiscal situation 2013-14, which requires legislation every year. I assume we inherited from Labour. Having an uncompetitive that Labour Members will not oppose the clause, given top rate of income tax does not help, a point that that the legislation raises £154 billion a year. However, a previous Labour Governments recognised until we got few weeks ago they did oppose the income tax charge in to the fag end of the previous Government when, as a the Budget resolutions. If they had been successful, the political ploy, the then Prime Minister put the rate up to deficit would have increased by more than £150 billion a 50p. It is striking how the Opposition will not confirm year. Moreover, whereas the Government have taken that they will return to a 50p rate. some 2.7 million people out of income tax, Labour would have taken about 30 million people out of it, Geraint Davies: I am grateful to the Minister for his including millionaires. generosity in giving way.Does he agree with the trickle-down I understood the hon. Member for Newcastle upon theory, which is that if we give the rich more money the Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) to be opposed to poor will eventually get a bit more? Or does he believe clause 16. I shall say more about that shortly, but let me that it is more of a trickle-up and that if one crushes the first comment on the three main parts of her interesting poor, like the dementors I mentioned, one can take their speech. She began by calling for greater economic growth money and give it to the rich, so that we have the in the economy. That section of her speech was followed bloated group of people whom he represents side by by a part opposing the abolition of the 50p rate of side with people in massive poverty? 535 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 536

Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman refers to dementors, parties would agree that it is wrong for us to have a and I am afraid that he is living in the world of fairy system whereby people can drive down their tax bill tales and Harry Potter with his economics. It is this year after year to very low rates despite being high Government who are taking people out of income tax earners. That is exactly what this measure is about. and this Government who are providing support to low The measure demonstrates that as a Government we earners. The fact is that a 50p rate was not effective. are doing more to raise money from the wealthy. In We heard many speeches about a tax cut for millionaires Budget 2010, we increased higher rate capital gains tax; and so on. The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne in Budget 2011, we tackled avoidance through disguised North made it pretty clear that she disliked clause 16 remuneration, which was opposed by the Opposition; and schedule 3, which introduce a cap on reliefs. Such in Budget 2012, we raised stamp duty on high-value reliefs exist for good reasons and can encourage certain homes; in the autumn statement 2012, we took action activities and behaviours that benefit both our economy to reduce the cost of pensions tax relief; and in Budget and wider society, such as entrepreneurship and investment, 2013 we announced further measures to tackle offshore which help to drive growth. We are committed to supporting tax evasion by high earners. Under this Government, such activity, but that support should not be limitless, the richest now pay more in income tax than in any year especially at a time when the priority is to balance the under Labour. public finances. In the past, some individuals have been Amendment 1 requests a review, and HMRC published able to offset unlimited reliefs against their income to a thorough and very well-researched report at Budget reduce their income tax bills to zero. Those are often 2012 that showed the effect of the additional rate of very wealthy individuals who can end up paying a lower income tax. Those matters were debated at considerable tax rate than the people they employ to clean their length last year and the report shows that the rate was offices. That is simply not right and some individuals not raising the money that the previous Government have been able to do that year after year. intended it to raise. It is illogical to maintain a tax rate It is right and fair that we should seek to prevent such that is not effective at raising revenue from high earners activity by limiting uncapped reliefs. That is what clause and that risks damaging growth. We have found better 16 and schedule 3 do: they cap the use of previously ways of raising money from the wealthy that raise more unlimited income tax reliefs at £50,000 or 25% of an money but do less damage to the economy. individual’s income, whichever is the greater. The cap We always keep tax rates under review, but I note the came into effect on 6 April this year. The changes will inclusion of a request for a review in the amendment. It affect only around 7,500 individuals and more than seems to me that the purpose of the amendment is not 90% of the revenue will come from those with an just to enable us to have another debate on the 50p rate income of more than £150,000—that is, those who pay today but to enable the Labour party to find an escape the additional rate of income tax. The limit is expected route from its policy. Until a few days ago, it was to raise about £200 million a year, significantly more against getting rid of the 50p rate. Labour will not than the cost of reducing the 50% rate down to 45%. answer the question, however, of what it will do at the One question that has been asked is whether the next election. Its holding position is clearly that it will provision will hurt start-ups and SMEs. Some 90% of have a review. The Labour party knows that to go into trading losses set against general income in a tax year the next election campaigning for an increase to the 50p are less than £15,000 a year, well below the threshold for rate would simply underline that it is anti-enterprise. It the cap. Business loss reliefs are not intended to subsidise knows such an increase would damage the economy businesses that have no chance of success. We have a and is trying to find an escape route. Despite all the generous regime, but we do not believe that it should be bluster in all the speeches we have heard today, Labour without limit. Unlimited reliefs mean that some people, will not confirm that that is the policy it supports. It is often with high incomes, can pay little or no income tax all about posturing, not about practicality. That is why year on year. We do not believe that that is fair. There they did not have a 50p rate when they were in government will be no limit on trade or property losses set against and why they are trying to slip away from it now, hoping profits from the same trade or property business in that no one will notice. I recommend that clauses 1 and another year and business loss reliefs are not intended 16 and schedule three stand part of the Bill and we hope to subsidise established businesses that make losses year that they will have all-party support. after year.

Catherine McKinnell: Can the Minister provide Catherine McKinnell: I thank the Minister for his reassurance that he has taken on board the concerns response and the completely fictional rewriting of HMRC’s raised by a number of accountancy organisations, whose report on the impact of the 50p rate of tax, which opinions are very reputable, that the change will not showed very clearly that it brought in additional revenue only counteract the clamping down that the Government of about £1.1 billion. Who knows how much more it are correctly introducing but hamper the growth of might have brought in had the Government not abolished genuine small businesses that are struggling? I would it at such an early stage, before there was even the say that those businesses are struggling because of the opportunity to collect the data that would have given a Chancellor’s failing economic plan. picture of the longer-term impact? We will press amendment 1 to a vote, and we are Mr Gauke: Of course, we have consulted on this asking for a proper review of the impact of the 50p rate policy and have listened very carefully to the representations of tax so that members of the public can know the truth we have received. If we are serious about raising revenue about the amount of revenue it would have brought in in a way that does not damage the economy, the cap on had this Government not opted to give a tax cut to reliefs is a sensible approach. It is a matter of fairness millionaires while letting ordinary people bear the brunt and I would have thought that hon. Members from all of the Chancellor’s utterly failing economic plan. 537 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 538

Question put, That the amendment be made. McGovern, Alison Seabeck, Alison McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Sharma, Mr Virendra The Committee divided: Ayes 203, Noes 264. McKechin, Ann Sheerman, Mr Barry Division No. 215] [1.29 pm McKenzie, Mr Iain Sheridan, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Shuker, Gavin AYES Meacher, rh Mr Michael Skinner, Mr Dennis Mearns, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Abrahams, Debbie Farrelly, Paul Mitchell, Austin Smith, Angela Alexander, Heidi Field, rh Mr Frank Moon, Mrs Madeleine Smith, Nick Ali, Rushanara Fitzpatrick, Jim Morden, Jessica Smith, Owen Allen, Mr Graham Flello, Robert Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Spellar, rh Mr John Ashworth, Jonathan Flint, rh Caroline Morris, Grahame M. Stuart, Ms Gisela Austin, Ian Flynn, Paul (Easington) Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bailey, Mr Adrian Fovargue, Yvonne Mudie, Mr George Tami, Mark Bain, Mr William Gapes, Mike Munn, Meg Thornberry, Emily Banks, Gordon Gardiner, Barry Murphy, rh Paul Timms, rh Stephen Barron, rh Mr Kevin Gilmore, Sheila Murray, Ian Trickett, Jon Bayley, Hugh Glass, Pat Nandy, Lisa Twigg, Derek Benton, Mr Joe Glindon, Mrs Mary Nash, Pamela Umunna, Mr Chuka Berger, Luciana Godsiff, Mr Roger O’Donnell, Fiona Vaz, rh Keith Betts, Mr Clive Goggins, rh Paul Onwurah, Chi Vaz, Valerie Blackman-Woods, Roberta Goodman, Helen Osborne, Sandra Watts, Mr Dave Blears, rh Hazel Green, Kate Owen, Albert Weir, Mr Mike Blenkinsop, Tom Greenwood, Lilian Pearce, Teresa Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Blomfield, Paul Griffith, Nia Perkins, Toby Whitehead, Dr Alan Blunkett, rh Mr David Gwynne, Andrew Powell, Lucy Williams, Hywel Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hamilton, Mr David Qureshi, Yasmin Williamson, Chris Brown, Lyn Hamilton, Fabian Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hanson, rh Mr David Winnick, Mr David Reed, Mr Jamie Brown, Mr Russell Harris, Mr Tom Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Reed, Mr Steve Bryant, Chris Havard, Mr Dai Wishart, Pete Reynolds, Emma Buck, Ms Karen Hendrick, Mark Woodcock, John Riordan, Mrs Linda Burden, Richard Hillier, Meg Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Robertson, Angus Burnham, rh Andy Hodge, rh Margaret Wright, David Robertson, John Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Wright, Mr Iain Roy, Mr Frank Campbell, Mr Alan Hopkins, Kelvin Ruane, Chris Tellers for the Ayes: Caton, Martin Hosie, Stewart Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Phil Wilson and Champion, Sarah Howarth, rh Mr George Sawford, Andy Julie Hilling Clark, Katy Hunt, Tristram Clarke, rh Mr Tom Irranca-Davies, Huw Coaker, Vernon Jackson, Glenda NOES Coffey, Ann Jamieson, Cathy Adams, Nigel Bruce, Fiona Cooper, Rosie Jarvis, Dan Afriyie, Adam Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, rh Alan Aldous, Peter Buckland, Mr Robert Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana Andrew, Stuart Burns, Conor Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burns, rh Mr Simon Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Bacon, Mr Richard Burrowes, Mr David Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Baker, Steve Burstow, rh Paul Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Baldry, Sir Tony Burt, Alistair Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Baldwin, Harriett Burt, Lorely Cunningham, Sir Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Barclay, Stephen Byles, Dan Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Barker, rh Gregory Cairns, Alun David, Wayne Khan, rh Sadiq Baron, Mr John Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Barwell, Gavin Carmichael, Neil Davies, Geraint Lazarowicz, Mark Bebb, Guto Carswell, Mr Douglas De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris Beith, rh Sir Alan Cash, Mr William Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Bellingham, Mr Henry Chishti, Rehman Dobson, rh Frank Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Beresford, Sir Paul Chope, Mr Christopher Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Ian Berry, Jake Clappison, Mr James Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Blackman, Bob Clark, rh Greg Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Blackwood, Nicola Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Doughty, Stephen Mahmood, Shabana Blunt, Mr Crispin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Dowd, Jim Malhotra, Seema Doyle, Gemma Mann, John Bone, Mr Peter Collins, Damian Dromey, Jack Marsden, Mr Gordon Bottomley, Sir Peter Cox, Mr Geoffrey Dugher, Michael McCabe, Steve Bradley, Karen Crouch, Tracey Eagle, Ms Angela McCann, Mr Michael Brady, Mr Graham Davies, Glyn Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Brake, rh Tom Davis, rh Mr David Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg Bray, Angie de Bois, Nick Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Brazier, Mr Julian Dinenage, Caroline Engel, Natascha McDonald, Andy Bridgen, Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John Brine, Steve Duddridge, James Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Brokenshire, James Duncan, rh Mr Alan 539 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 540

Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Leech, Mr John Scott, Mr Lee Tyrie, Mr Andrew Ellis, Michael Leigh, Mr Edward Sharma, Alok Uppal, Paul Ellison, Jane Leslie, Charlotte Shelbrooke, Alec Vaizey, Mr Edward Ellwood, Mr Tobias Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Shepherd, Sir Richard Vara, Mr Shailesh Elphicke, Charlie Lewis, Brandon Simpson, Mr Keith Vickers, Martin Eustice, George Lewis, Dr Julian Skidmore, Chris Walker, Mr Charles Evans, Graham Lilley, rh Mr Peter Smith, Miss Chloe Walker, Mr Robin Fabricant, Michael Lloyd, Stephen Smith, Henry Wallace, Mr Ben Featherstone, Lynne Lord, Jonathan Smith, Julian Watkinson, Dame Angela Field, Mark Loughton, Tim Smith, Sir Robert Weatherley, Mike Fox,rhDrLiam Luff, Peter Soubry, Anna Webb, Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Lumley, Karen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wharton, James Freer, Mike Main, Mrs Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Whittaker, Craig Fuller, Richard Maude, rh Mr Francis Stanley, rh Sir John Whittingdale, Mr John Garnier, Sir Edward Maynard, Paul Stephenson, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Garnier, Mark McIntosh, Miss Anne Stewart, Bob Willetts, rh Mr David Gauke, Mr David McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Iain Williams, Mr Mark George, Andrew McVey, Esther Streeter, Mr Gary Williams, Roger Gibb, Mr Nick Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel Williams, Stephen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Mercer, Patrick Stunell, rh Andrew Williamson, Gavin Glen, John Metcalfe, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Wilson, Mr Rob Goodwill, Mr Robert Miller, rh Maria Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gove, rh Michael Mills, Nigel Swinson, Jo Wright, Jeremy Graham, Richard Milton, Anne Syms, Mr Robert Wright, Simon Grant, Mrs Helen Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Teather, Sarah Yeo, Mr Tim Gray, Mr James Mordaunt, Penny Thornton, Mike Young, rh Sir George Griffiths, Andrew Morgan, Nicky Thurso, John Zahawi, Nadhim Gummer, Ben Morris, Anne Marie Timpson, Mr Edward Gyimah, Mr Sam Morris, David Tomlinson, Justin Tellers for the Noes: Halfon, Robert Mosley, Stephen Truss, Elizabeth Mark Lancaster and Hammond, Stephen Mowat, David Turner, Mr Andrew Mr David Evennett Hancock, Matthew Mulholland, Greg Hands, Greg Murray, Sheryll Question accordingly negatived. Harrington, Richard Newmark, Mr Brooks Harris, Rebecca Newton, Sarah Harvey, Sir Nick Nokes, Caroline 1.42 pm Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Norman, Jesse More than two hours having elapsed since the Hayes, rh Mr John Nuttall, Mr David commencement of proceedings, the proceedings were Heald, Oliver Ollerenshaw, Eric interrupted (Programme Order, 15 April). Heaton-Harris, Chris Ottaway, Richard The Chair put forthwith the Question necessary for the Hemming, John Paice, rh Sir James disposal of the business to be concluded at that time Henderson, Gordon Paisley, Ian (Standing Order No. 83D). Herbert, rh Nick Parish, Neil Hinds, Damian Patel, Priti Clauses 1 and 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Hoban, Mr Mark Paterson, rh Mr Owen Schedule 3 agreed to. Hollingbery, George Pawsey, Mark Hollobone, Mr Philip Penning, Mike Howarth, Sir Gerald Penrose, John New Clause 2 Howell, John Percy, Andrew Hughes, rh Simon Perry, Claire RATE OF VAT Hunter, Mark Phillips, Stephen ‘(1) In section 2(1) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 (Rate of Huppert, Dr Julian Pincher, Christopher VAT) for “20 per cent” substitute “17.5 per cent”. Hurd, Mr Nick Prisk, Mr Mark (2) Subsection (1) shall have effect from Royal Assent and shall Jackson, Mr Stewart Pugh, John expire at such time as the Government presents to Parliament a James, Margot Raab, Mr Dominic report stating that the UK economy has returned to strong Javid, Sajid Randall, rh Mr John growth.’.—(Cathy Jamieson.) Jenkin, Mr Bernard Reckless, Mark Johnson, Gareth Redwood, rh Mr John Brought up, and read the First time. Johnson, Joseph Rees-Mogg, Jacob Jones, Andrew Reevell, Simon The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): I call Catherine Jones, Mr Marcus Reid, Mr Alan Jamieson to move the motion. Kawczynski, Daniel Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- Kelly, Chris Robertson, rh Hugh op): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second Kirby, Simon Robertson, Mr Laurence time. Knight, rh Mr Greg Rogerson, Dan Kwarteng, Kwasi Rosindell, Andrew Thank you, Mr Hood, for using my full name. My Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rudd, Amber mother will be most impressed, as she is the only other Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Ruffley, Mr David person on the planet who addresses me as “Catherine”, Latham, Pauline Russell, Sir Bob rather than Cathy. She will be delighted. Leadsom, Andrea Rutley, David I am sure that many Government Members are interested Lee, Jessica Sanders, Mr Adrian in the rate of VAT and perhaps rather relieved that they Lee, Dr Phillip Sandys, Laura are not in the same frenzy over it that they were when 541 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 542 we debated the Finance Bill this time last year. I see Stewart Hosie: I am broadly sympathetic to the proposal, some hon. Members agreeing, because I think that we which could stimulate the economy significantly, but all learned far more than we ever wanted to about VAT brings in about £100 billion a year, so the question ambient temperatures, pasties and the impact of the the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) VAT proposals on not only hot food, but caravans, asks is valid. Does “strong growth” mean consistently churches, sports nutrition products and so on. Perhaps positive growth and, if so, at what level and for how Government Members will be more relieved to talk long, or would it require a return to trend growth of about our VAT proposals. about 2.5% and, if so, for how long, or would it require We have tabled new clause 2 because, as has been said above-trend growth and, if so, for how long? To have an in earlier debates, we have concerns about the rising open-ended commitment to lose potentially £10 million cost of living and its impact on ordinary people. In the a year for some years would be quite a serious and last debate we heard many passionate speeches from significant thing, irrespective of the positive impact it Opposition Members, particularly on how the rising might have. cost of living is impacting on their constituents, and I was struck by the number of Members who referred to The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. I say to constituents having to rely more and more on food the hon. Gentleman, in case he is going to make any banks. Having moved on from the debate on hot food, it further interventions, that he should make them a bit is sad that we are now talking about more people having shorter and get straight to the point. to rely on food handouts. Those handouts, of course, show the generosity of many people in our local Cathy Jamieson: I am interested to hear that the hon. communities, and I applaud them for the work they are Gentleman has some sympathy with our proposal—I doing, but surely in this day and age people should not suspect that we might not have the same agreement over have to rely on such initiatives. some of the other issues up for debate today. He raises important issues. That is why, through new clause 2, we 1.45 pm want to ensure that a report would be produced. We are Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Can the hon. calling on the Government to do that now, rather than Lady tell me her definition of the “strong growth” that put it off into the future. The Government could put in her new clause says would trigger VAT being put up place monitoring measures now; that would allow for a again? temporary VAT cut, which would help stimulate the economy. Cathy Jamieson: I thank the right hon. Gentleman Borrowing to pay for the cost of economic failure has for his intervention. Given that I have not really got risen—it is now forecast to be £245 billion more than under way with all the details of the new clause, I will planned at the time of the spending review. That, of come to those points later. However, I will say that one course, excludes the one-off transfers of the Royal Mail thing we know is that the Office for Budget Responsibility pension fund and asset purchase facilities. The Government has halved the growth forecast for this year and downgraded are not going to balance the books by 2015 as the Prime it again for next year, so we are not in a situation of Minister promised. National debt as a percentage of strong growth. The Government really have to take GDP is not now forecast to start falling until 2017-18. It responsibility for that, because since the Chancellor’s is important to remember that, as it breaks one of the spending review in 2010 the UK economy has grown by Government’s own fiscal rules. just 0.7%, compared with the 5.3% forecast at the time. As this week’s labour market statistics show, halfway I do not think that anyone could suggest that that was through a Parliament, Britain is still being scarred by particularly successful. Last year, of course, the UK rising unemployment, an issue raised in earlier debates went through a double-dip recession and the economy by many hon. Members, who brought attention to shrank by 0.3% in the last quarter. what was happening in their constituencies in the real Mr Redwood: The hon. Lady is quite right that growth world. has been very disappointing and that the forecasts have Not only are more people unemployed than at the been revised downwards, but we are debating her policy, election, but the number is rising. Earlier, my hon. which is that VAT should go up again when the UK Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North economy returns to “strong growth.” It is a very simple referred to the rising numbers: 70,000 more people are question: can she tell us what strong growth would on the dole now than last month; long-term unemployment trigger an increase in VAT? has risen yet again; and, most damagingly of all, the next generation is paying the brutal price, with youth Cathy Jamieson: As I have indicated to the right hon. unemployment up yet again, by 20,000. Gentleman, whose views I listen to and who always raises pertinent questions, I will come to that, but the People are no longer giving the Chancellor the benefit Government must also take responsibility for, as we of the doubt. I think I said that about this time during heard in the previous debate, trying to give all sorts of last year’s debate; I felt that at that stage the public were reasons why the economy has not recovered. As my beginning to lose confidence in the Chancellor’s economic hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne strategy. This week, we have to take note of what the North (Catherine McKinnell) suggested, we were surprised International Monetary Fund’s chief economist said: to hear that the latest reason given seems to be the issue “In the face of very weak private demand, it may be time to of the 50p tax rate, rather than looking at the situation consider adjusting the original fiscal consolidation plan”. in the round. I want to talk a little more about some of the issues that the economy currently faces and why we Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I am think our proposal is one way of stimulating the economy following the hon. Lady’s speech with interest and read and looking to the future in order to help local businesses. the new clause with greater interest. She really has not 543 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 544

[Mr Stewart Jackson] Cathy Jamieson: I intended to say £1,700; if I said £17,000, I apologise. Obviously, Mr Hood, I need to put addressed the issue raised by the hon. Member for my spectacles on when I read the numbers. I am glad Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). The new clause represents that the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton a spending commitment. Given that she is not able to (Neil Parish) is accepting my apology. specify what “strong growth” means, how will she fill the fiscal gap? Will she increase another tax, and if so Neil Parish indicated assent. which one? Alternatively, which departmental budget would be cut to pay for the measure? Mr Jackson rose—

Cathy Jamieson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Cathy Jamieson: I want to make a bit more progress. I intervention. We argue that the new clause would be come back to the point raised by the hon. Member for part of a package of measures. We have heard about Tiverton and Honiton about times being hard and the other initiatives that could be brought forward, and it is idea that somehow the problem is to clear up the mess important to recognise that others in industry and left behind, as the hon. Gentleman described it. People business are also saying that one way to stimulate the out there in the real world are getting tired of hearing economy would be to introduce at least a temporary cut that same old mantra. The Government have responsibility in VAT. There are serious questions to be asked about for what is happening now. They have to take responsibility the other issues, but if we could get unanimity about for policy decisions taken in Budgets that impact on the this issue, it might be possible for the Government to lives of ordinary people. consider it and bring forward further proposals. I go back to the research from the TUC. Some In the Budget, the Government had the opportunity Government Members may look sceptical about it, but to change course, make the necessary changes and I assure them that many ordinary people in my constituency kick-start the economy. Sadly, however, more and more and those of my hon. Friends recognise the value of the commentators are reflecting that all we got was more of work that the TUC and trade unions are doing in the same from the downgraded Chancellor. As a result, standing up for those finding that their individual and the cost of living for people up and down the country is collective incomes are being affected. rising day by day. The economy is flatlining, inflation The TUC research considers the impact of direct and remains high and food bills are rising. Energy bills are indirect tax changes over the Parliament. It shows that a soaring, thanks to the Government’s failure to break household with an average weekly income of £195.92, the stranglehold of the big six energy companies. The the lowest income band for working people, will gain Office for Budget Responsibility’s most recent figures £1.09 a week—that figure is underlined, so I have not show that people will be worse off in 2015 than when made an error—from the above-inflation rise in the the Government came to office. personal allowance by 2015. However, and importantly, The reality for people is that real wages are now the same family will lose £4.26 a week through the £17,000 a year smaller than they were in 2010. To add increase in VAT, which went up in January 2011, leaving to that hardship, any benefit that hard-working people them with a total annual loss of £164.84 as a result of might have received from the Government’s much the Government’s tax policy. trumpeted rise in the personal allowance has been Many on the Government Benches may say, “Well, uniformly swept aside by the raft of tax and benefit that is not a huge amount.” I repeat what I have said in changes that the Government have made since 2010. previous debates: it may not be a huge amount for Those changes mean that families will be an average of someone with a decent job and income—I include all of £891 worse off in the new financial year, according us here in that—but it is a huge amount for those trying to the analysis of figures made by the independent to have a reasonable standard of living and ensure that Institute for Fiscal Studies—even more money out of their families have food on the table and that their kids the pockets of hard-working people up and down the have clothes. country. The truth is that even if those tax and benefit changes Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) rose— had never happened, any benefit from the rise of the personal allowance would have been wiped out by the Mr Jackson rose— Government’s 2011 VAT rise from 17.5% to 20% alone. Research from the TUC confirms that by the time of Cathy Jamieson: I give way first to the hon. Gentleman the next election, families of all incomes will lose more and then to my hon. Friend. from the VAT rise than they will gain from the increase in the personal allowance and the changes to national Mr Jackson: The hon. Lady is being most generous in insurance, with low paid workers losing up to four times giving way. Surely it is churlish of her not to concede more per year from the Government’s increase in VAT that most independent specialists, such as the Institute than they will gain from the raising of the personal tax for Fiscal Studies, have said that as a result of the fiscal allowance to £10,000. changes since 2010 the biggest impact has been felt among the richest 10% of earners in the country. Is it Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I understand not fair to put that on the record, too? that times are tough, partly because we have to try to bring the economy together after the last Labour Cathy Jamieson: I hope I am not being churlish in Government. The hon. Lady said that individuals are hoping that the hon. Gentleman will understand that £17,000 worse off than they were. I cannot understand most of those independent commentators also point to that. Has she added on too many noughts, or what? what is happening to those on the lowest incomes. 545 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 546

Opposition Members feel strongly that those people are Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): My hon. Friend taking a disproportionate share. It is not a case of, has noted a number of ways in which people are suffering “We’re all in it together.” When ordinary people see up and down the country. Does she agree that society millionaires and those on the highest incomes getting a suffers the most when the gap widens between rich and tax break or a tax cut, it seems unfair to them that their poor, that we are now seeing it stretched to the absolute wages or incomes are hit hard by the Government’s limit, and that the Government either do not recognise policies. that or choose not to do so?

Andrew Gwynne rose— Cathy Jamieson: My hon. Friend is a powerful advocate for the people in his constituency who are bearing the Cathy Jamieson: I will take my hon. Friend’s intervention brunt of the Government’s policies, and he is absolutely before I forget about him. right. It is important that there is no further widening of that gap. This is not just about the money in people’s Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right pockets, important though that is, but the fabric of to call for an assessment of the cost of living. Does she society and the relationships that people build in their accept, though, that it should not be restricted to the local communities. impact of the fiscal changes announced in the Budget It is important to consider the impact on our high but should look more widely at the effect on families of streets. For generations, local businesses have offered expenses such as increasing fuel prices, increasing transport jobs and the convenience of shopping in the local high costs, and interest payments on payday loans? street, and have been involved in providing services there. They are now under pressure from the flatlining 2pm economy. Consumer spending has been constrained by high inflation and stagnant wages, leading to a 6% fall Cathy Jamieson: My hon. Friend makes a valuable in real disposable income in 2008, with a devastating point. So that I cannot be accused of being churlish, let impact on our local high streets. Shops are lying empty, me say that we did welcome the action taken on fuel with a threefold increase in that trend since 2008. Household duty, but if VAT were reduced, as we are suggesting, names such as HMV, JJB Sports, Blockbusters and that would provide a further reduction in fuel costs, Comet have been forced to close a large number of which would make a difference to families. stores or to shut up shop completely. It is estimated that My hon. Friend mentioned payday loans. Many people last year 1,800 shops were forced to close—a staggering will be hard hit, with not only those out of work but tenfold increase on the year before. We have heard those in work now finding it much more difficult to about the impact on the pub industry, and there has manage from month to month. The worry is that many been a call for the VAT rate to be considered in that more might feel the need to try to get such loans, context. believing that they will help but finding themselves Not only is retail suffering, but businesses of all kinds further caught in a downward spiral. This is a very up and down the country are feeling the impact of the serious problem. In my constituency in the past couple Government’s failed economic policies and the flatlining of weeks, I have heard about people in that situation, economy. That has led, and is still leading, to a lack of which will be very familiar to other hon. Members. confidence, particularly in the construction sector, with Perhaps equally worryingly, I have heard people say many arguing that more must be done to get people that they fear the impact of the bedroom tax will mean back to work and to get projects under way. Sadly, that, for the very first time, they might have to rely on Project Merlin did not deliver the new era of loans that food banks. The saddest aspect is that many of them it was supposed to. We learned this week that lending to will not be able to do that over an extended period UK businesses fell by £2 billion in December alone, and because food banks are supposed to deal with the crisis it is down by £18.6 billion over the past year, while points rather than sustaining people, and perhaps folk businesses continue to suffer. The Business Secretary have not yet fully understood that. They are clutching seems perhaps finally to be recognising this failure. He at any hope to try to maintain their standard of living. boasted at his party conference that he would set up a James Plunkett, the director of policy at the Resolution Government-backed bank to get billions of pounds to Foundation, has stated: businesses that need it, but we are still awaiting the fine “The squeeze will look worse over the next few years than detail of what that bank will do and when and how previously feared”. businesses will be helped. They may well have to wait With all that going on, it is no wonder that working some time for it to be up and running. people feel that their lives are going backwards, because I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion because I they are. want to give other hon. Members the opportunity to All this has had an undeniable and damaging knock-on raise issues on behalf of their constituents and put the impact on our economy and on our high streets and case to the Government. There are things we can do to businesses up and down the country. That is why, for help businesses and individuals through these tough over a year and a half, Labour has been calling on the times. We could reform the funding for lending scheme Government temporarily to reverse VAT back down to so that banks can access the lowest rates of funding 17.5%. That would put about £450 back into the pockets only if they increase lending to businesses as well as of a couple with children, help to ease the squeeze on overall lending, and extend it beyond the end of 2013, our constituents, and give our economy a much-needed as currently envisaged by the Government, to the end of stimulus. That is why we are calling for it again today. 2014. Let us do what every other G8 economy has done When consumers have less cash in their pockets, our and set up a state-backed investment institution to high streets, local businesses and economy suffer. These provide credit to small businesses where others will not are tough times for businesses. by establishing a proper British investment bank. As we 547 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 548

[Cathy Jamieson] the things that really make a difference to the economy. I submit that the main reason why our economy is not have argued, that could be done through a new network growing rapidly is that the banks, led by RBS and of regional banks like the German Sparkassen. That abetted by HBOS, have been on a very sharp slimming would also help to return SMEs to a local relationship programme. It is true that some of those assets were with banking, with managers who know what is needed foreign and a lot of them were derivatives and so on, on the ground and have the discretion to make local but overall, this massive slimming programme has clearly lending decisions. Regional banks are committed to placed enormous pressure on the UK economy. their regions and in touch with local business. We have In addition, this place, as part of the political debate, called for, and will continue to call for, the Government has discovered that bankers are even more unpopular to bring forward these measures to help boost our than politicians, so it has taken great delight in trying to businesses and get our economy moving again. do as much damage as possible to the banking industry. Even if the Government accepted all those proposals I understand that the banking industry did not do well and they were acted on today, the benefits would take for itself—I am enough of a politician to realise the some time to come to the fore and to be felt. However, politics of all this—but if we target one of our biggest the one step we could take now that would immediately and most successful industries of the previous decade make a difference would be for the Government to and force it into slimming down measures and tax it agree to reduce VAT to 17.5% to put money back into more, we should expect a drop in output, and that is the pockets of hard-working people and give a stimulus what has happened. One of the reasons why we do not to local economies. That would put something back have much growth in this country is that our lead sector into the pot to help the local businesses we have talked of the previous decade has taken such a big hit and is about, whether by reducing fuel costs or stimulating the now so politically unpopular that pressures remain to economy such that people feel that they are able to prevent it from growing and recovering as some of us spend again. We need to get consumers back out there would like. spending their money, supporting our high streets and A third area that has caused considerable problems is businesses, and helping our economy to grow again. It oil and gas. We cannot legislate to change the age profile is for the Government to explain to the people of the of our reservoirs, many of which have aged a lot recently UK why they will not listen to the arguments that have in terms of the amount of oil and gas left to exploit. been advanced and are not prepared to take this action There are arguments about other tax policies we could as a stimulus to the economy and to help to get things pursue to stimulate more finds and exploitation, but moving again. some of the big, successful reservoirs of previous years are now ageing, so whoever was running the country Mr Redwood: The proposed new clause is designed to was going to experience a reduction in output from stimulate strong growth, which I suspect everyone in another of our high-value-added sectors—oil and gas—and this House would welcome. I trust that the Government that was bound to hit the growth rate. are in the market for ideas that would stimulate strong What more can we do to overcome those difficulties growth, but my sad conclusion is that a sudden cut in in two of our lead sectors? Tax measures proposed by VAT of undefined duration is neither a sufficient condition other clauses that we will discuss later could be helpful. for stimulating strong growth in the economy nor even a Broadly speaking, the lower the tax rate, the better from necessary precondition of such stimulation. the point of view of stimulating growth, and there have We have to ask what the alternative is to the Opposition’s been some measures in the right direction. recommendation, which we all agree is well-intended The problem with the proposed new clause’s VAT because they wish to see strong growth. I submit that measure is that it is so expensive and I do not think we the prime thing the Government need to do to raise the would get a big enough return for the colossal loss of growth rate and get over this period of extremely revenue that it would cause. We have already heard an disappointing performance is mend the banks. It is estimate of about £10 billion, but the Labour Opposition surprising that the official forecasters at the Office for have given us no figures whatsoever. They have not told Budget Responsibility thought there would be strong us how much it would cost, how long it would be a growth over the past three years, because they knew concessionary rate and on what conditions they would that the official policy on the Royal Bank of Scotland, return to the new rate. That weakens their case, because which is largely state owned, was to push the bank if they wish to make this a serious policy, they need to through the most enormous slim-down, a continuation cost it and explain by how much the deficit would rise in of the policy begun in 2008 when it was largely acquired the early stages and at what point the growth would by the state under the previous Government. accelerate enough to start to generate serious revenues So far, £900 billion of assets and liabilities have been from increased activity. removed from RBS’s £2.2 trillion balance sheet since The evidence seems to be that, whereas it is possible the state foolishly took them on. How can we expect the to do serious damage to the revenues generated by British economy to grow rapidly when its leading bank income tax and capital gains tax if the rates are put up is going through a forced slimming programme of too much—I fear that that is what has happened under £900 billion? This is big money, even for a £1.5 trillion the Labour and coalition Governments in recent years—it economy. We spend most of our time in this place is more difficult to depress the revenues of VAT. Indeed, discussing the odd £5 billion or £10 billion—we are now the increase from 17.5% to 20% actually produced some billionaires in our discussions rather than millionaires— increase in revenue, despite the poor performance of the but these figures have very little overall impact on a economy, so the argument that cutting the rate generates £1.5 trillion economy, whereas £900 billion is eye-poppingly more revenue—economists call it the Laffer curve large. We have to deal in trillions now if we want to see argument—does not apply in the same way as it does to 549 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 550 taxes geared towards gains and income, whereby more Mr Redwood: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair criticism realistic rates would do two good things, namely generate of my remarks, but to stay in order I did not mention more growth and, therefore, more tax revenue. I fear the changes to energy policy necessary to have cheaper that the problem with the VAT proposal is that this energy or the changes to other taxes that I would like short-term measure would definitely increase the deficit implemented to boost to the economy. and that the stimulus from VAT would not be sufficient to replace the lost revenue in any serious period of time Albert Owen: As a member of the Energy and Climate over which this experiment might be tried. Change Committee, I understand the difficulties. I realise 2.15 pm that one of the major problems—the price of crude oil and gas—is external and that we could have a wider Meanwhile, the banks would still underperform, unless debate about that, but I am talking specifically about we changed regulatory policy towards them, and we the need to boost the domestic economy. would still be under-banked, because I do not believe there is enough banking capacity to fuel a proper domestic Small businesses tell me that high street names are recovery and we do not have enough competition in the folding, first, because they have tight margins, and banking sector so we do not have choice or good value secondly because, although footfall might be steady, offers. People still tell me that if they try to get certain people are spending less money. The 2.5% increase in kinds of lending for business or for property, the answer VAT is making a real difference and taking money out is either no, or yes, but at an incredibly high cost with of people’s pockets. I support raising personal income all sorts of restrictions and difficulties that make it tax thresholds as a way of helping the low-paid, but it unattractive. can have no impact if cancelled out by a VAT increase. That is what business tells us. A small business leader in If we tried to promote growth against the background my area makes a little joke about the Chancellor: every of some of our primary export markets on the continent time that that business leader goes out with his wife, collapsing as a result of the foolish euro policy and daughter and son-in-law, he has to take the Chancellor the extreme austerity policies that are doing so much with him, because one-fifth of the bill is shared with damage to the continent, we would need to be extremely him. That is not a good state of affairs. If business clever in offsetting the additional headwind caused by people are starting to think like that, it means that that collapse. If we tried to promote growth against confidence has been eroded. One way of providing the the background of major difficulties in our banking necessary boost to confidence in the domestic market sector, we would need to ask ourselves how we can would be to reduce VAT temporarily. mend that sector, first to finance a better recovery and secondly because one of the main reasons why the Those are not just my words; they were also the output figures are so poor is that the banking sector words of the Prime Minister before the general election, itself—one of our best performing sectors—is now doing when he said that VAT was a regressive tax, which it is. I so badly. am in full agreement with him. The Deputy Prime I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Minister—there are not many Liberal Democrats here Bench to turn their attention to the central issue that today—said that putting up VAT during a recession the Opposition have rightly highlighted. I know that the would be a bombshell for the economy, yet that is Government are doing that, but I want them to look at exactly what the Government have done. I have argued splitting up RBS and creating banking competition in consistently for keeping VAT, which is a regressive tax, the market so that we can finance a better recovery and as low as possible in order to stimulate the economy. get some growth in output from the banking sector at the same time. They need to focus on tax rate cuts that Mr Robin Walker: I admire the hon. Gentleman’s would produce more revenue rather than those that consistency, but does he accept that this was a matter of would produce less. Although we would like lower debate during the general election because the then taxes, we cannot afford less revenue and the Opposition Labour Chancellor was clearly preparing to raise VAT have hit upon the one tax reduction that would produce to 20%, as he has subsequently admitted? It is wrong to less revenue, as I think all forecasts would rightly show. imply that his party has been as consistent as him. I trust that the Opposition’s good intentions will be welcomed, but that their proposal will be dismissed, Albert Owen: That argument is completely wrong. It because I simply do not think that it would trigger the might be Conservative central office’s take on it. The fast growth that they want and that they have not even previous Chancellor suggested a VAT rise, but was bothered to define. outvoted by the Cabinet. He was just one individual. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I always listen with The current Prime Minister, however, was clear that he interest to what the right hon. Member for Wokingham would not put it up, but then did. The hon. Gentleman (Mr Redwood) has to say in these debates and he has cannot accuse the previous Chancellor of making an been very consistent about low taxation over a number argument and then blame the last Government for not of years. I agree with him that external factors such as listening to him. It was the leader of the Conservative banking and energy costs are suppressing growth in our party, now the Prime Minister, who turned circles on country, but I also think that the domestic economy this issue. needs a boost and he did not offer any solutions. Small This regressive taxation hits the most vulnerable in businesses on our high streets are all asking for help our society. According to the Office for National Statistics, from the Government and I believe that the proposed 9.7% of the money the poorest 20% spend goes on VAT, new clause would help them. Money is being taken out and they spend more on VATable goods than the richest of the economy at a time when we need to be putting 20%, for whom that figure is 5.8%. It is an unfair tax, as money back into it. well as one that takes money out of the economy. 551 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 552

[Albert Owen] flexible measure. We can exempt certain goods from it. Yes, there are the European directives, but we could do The Conservatives have been consistent in shifting this immediately and in doing so send out a positive from direct to indirect personal taxation. It was Anthony message to the country and the business community Barber who introduced VAT, at 10% I think, and a later and increase footfall in our shops and high streets. Chancellor, in 1979, who raised it from 8% to 15%, The argument about reducing tax and increasing which had a negative effect for many years. In 1984, it yields is perfectly legitimate. Some say that reducing went up to 17.5%. As I said, in opposition, the Conservatives corporation tax automatically boosts business, but it said that they would not do this, yet it was one of the also results in a drop-off in the money that the Treasury first things they did. They are not getting the revenue takes. Nevertheless, it seems to be a favourite of the yield they expected, because the economy is in such dire Conservatives, and I, too, support it. I support having a straits—it is stagnating, in many ways. My hon. Friend low-tax economy and reducing many of these taxes, but the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy we should be consistent and do the same with VAT. The Jamieson) talked about wage freezes and other impacts increase in it was supposed to raise several billions of of Government policy. With a policy of reducing VAT, pounds, but it has failed to do so because spending has the Government could actually do something, instead fallen. of blaming the previous Government, the European I support the proposal to reduce VAT. Action is need Union or other external factors. Here is an opportunity and needed now. The Chancellor could do it, and if he for them to use one of the levers of power at their wanted to, he could do it straightaway. I accept that the disposal. poorest in the country, on the lowest wages, will benefit I hope that the Liberal Democrats will support us. from the change to income tax thresholds, but they will They have made such a big issue of it in the past. There lose out overall. The TUC is not alone in making this is only one Liberal Democrat here today, the hon. point. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that the Member for Eastleigh (Mike Thornton), but I would be combined tax increases, of which there have been several, happy to take an intervention from him, if he feels as both direct and indirect, will make the average family strongly as his party did—not him personally—before £900 worse off. If families are worse off in this country, the general election. It is a big issue. I talk to small spending is reduced and the economy is bound to businesses, and they tell me that the rate of VAT is having contract. That is basic economics. We need to stimulate a negative impact on their businesses. Everyone in the the economy, and one way of doing it correctly is to House wants to stimulate the economy, and here is a reduce VAT temporarily from 20% to 17.5%. Let us get way of doing it relatively quickly. the economy moving. The Chancellor has the power to There is evidence that along with other measures—it do it, and he should support the new clause. cannot be seen in isolation—the previous Government’s VAT reduction from 17.5% to 15% actually helped the Mr Stewart Jackson: It is always a pleasure to follow economy at a difficult time. The car scrappage and the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). I am other short-term schemes were also introduced to boost not sure that it is necessarily a pleasure for the Whips, the economy. The Government should be considering because the Committee will know that in the last Budget those sorts of things, rather than just blaming others. I was not exactly that supportive of my party on VAT, The economy is at a difficult juncture. Unemployment having opposed VAT on caravans and, by virtue of my is rising again, after temporarily falling: 2.54 million being the Member of Parliament for Peterborough, on people are on the dole—that is mass unemployment—and ecclesiastical buildings. are not spending. Helping them, with their small incomes, by reducing VAT would have a big impact on the 2.30 pm economy. The way forward is to create more jobs and I would like to develop some of the points made by get them back to work. my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham The Government have said—I am sure that the Minister (Mr Redwood), although I am hesitant to do so, given will clarify this matter—that it is not possible to reduce his expertise. We are debating an Opposition amendment, VAT, but that is not the case. I have heard them mention which I had hoped would be a coherent alternative to on numerous occasions a mechanism by which Europe the Government’s Budget and this Finance Bill. However, can prevent them from reducing VAT, but it could be we do not see that clear and coherent alternative, not done as a temporary measure. There are also many least because those on the Opposition Front Bench have variations, zero-rating exemptions and concessions that not really taken into account the externalities that my could be applied to VAT. right hon. Friend touched on. He has forgotten more than I will ever know about the banking crisis, but he Mr Gauke: I want to help the hon. Gentleman on this touched briefly on the effect on business confidence of point. There is flexibility when it comes to reducing the the disastrous market conditions in the European Union. rate, but the difficulty is that if one plucks a particular Hon. Members will know that I have consistently taken item, such as petrol, and reduces VAT on that alone, as a robust line on the euro and the ongoing bail-out his party advocated, it would need to be consistent with efforts for southern European countries such as Greece the VAT directives and that would require a derogation, and Portugal. Business confidence is suffering, not least which would take some years. The concerns we raised because, in the name of German economic policy, we related to the ill-thought-out specific proposal that those are inflicting destitution and poverty on thousands of on his party’s Front Bench put forward a year or so ago. working people across southern Europe. That is an issue. My right hon. Friend also talked about the availability Albert Owen: I am grateful for that clarification. I and adequacy of capital. That, too, is an issue that will recall that Labour Front Benchers said at the time that not necessarily be addressed or ameliorated by changes the proposal was specific to one thing, but this is a in VAT. 553 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 554

Sheila Gilmore: Would the hon. Gentleman like to view—that just pumping money into the economy will comment on the numerous observations and reports deliver growth, jobs and prosperity, which seemed to suggesting that, in fact, capital is available? Many businesses inform the argument that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock have capital available; the reason it is not being used to and Loudoun made—we should accept that it has not invest is because there is low demand in our economy. worked so far through quantitative easing, with the balances that are available. The issue is business confidence. Mr Jackson: The hon. Lady anticipates my next In the wider context—wider even than that—between point. By any respectable indicators over the past few 2000 and 2010, public expenditure rose from roughly years, the cash reserves that British business has for £450 billion to more than £700 billion. That is the investment are enormous. The issue is business confidence. context in which we should look at these fiscal changes. To develop that point, parts of the economy are doing It is not as if we have starved the economy of money in significantly better than others and have not been affected the public sector. The difficulty for the hon. Member for by this cyclical change, which has lasted since the onset Ynys Môn in arguing in defence of the Government at of the Northern Rock crisis of 2007-08 and the wider that time is that the economy was so unbalanced. It was banking crisis. focused disproportionately on the housing market, public I am a Conservative, so of course I am in favour of expenditure and financial services. Part of our challenge tax cuts. Would that we were in a position to have a tax as a Government is to try to rebalance the economy, so cut by virtue of the Opposition’s new clause 2, but let us that it can make people prosperous and create jobs make no bones about it: it is an unfunded tax cut—if it across wider economic activities, which is happening walks like a duck and swims like a duck, it is a duck. I organically on its own. always thought that Labour’s credo in recent times was Those on the Opposition Front Bench also fail to not to support unfunded tax cuts. With all due respect take into account the other, bigger policies that the to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun Government have embarked on. I will not pretend that (Cathy Jamieson), who is a very competent, proficient things such as the national insurance holidays or the performer at the Dispatch Box, she failed to answer the regional growth fund have been an enormous success. I points raised by me and the hon. Member for Dundee serve on the Public Accounts Committee and we have East (Stewart Hosie) and say where the money would been critical of things that the Government have pursued come from. We are talking about £100 billion of indicative in some areas. Nevertheless—the hon. Gentleman alluded funding, which has to be found from somewhere. It is all to this—the Government are looking at tariffs for utility very well saying, “We’re going to have a progress report bills, the beer duty escalator and the fuel duty escalator. at the end of this Parliament to see how things are We are looking at substantial changes that will have a going,” but once we put in place that tax cut, we would fiscal impact on welfare, through the universal credit cut off that income stream. We would then have to find and so on making work pay, rather than paying for other ways to fund core expenditure. idleness and allowing people’s talents to be wasted. We are also putting money into the mortgage market and Albert Owen: I hear what the hon. Gentleman is assisting new house building. Some 42,000 of my saying, but he referred to a figure of £100 billion, which constituents had a tax cut last week as a result of the is the total VAT take. We will not lose all of it: there will massive fiscal changes that this Government have made, be a 2.5% reduction. with 2,000 of my constituents paying no tax at all and 24 million people affected. It seems rather unfair not to Stewart Hosie: A 10% reduction. take that on board. I also alluded earlier to the progressive nature of our Albert Owen: Yes, a 10% reduction. The hon. Gentleman tax changes. Whatever we say about them, it cannot be is talking about losing that, but unemployment is going argued that we have not looked at the top 5% or 10% of up—these are the factors—and we will be paying more income earners in this country to ensure that they are out of the Treasury for those things. We are talking paying a significantly higher share than others. They are about stimulating the economy, which I understand is the people who will specifically be more worse off than difficult to quantify, but it would be positive. anyone else, whether the hon. Gentleman likes it or not.

Mr Jackson: The hon. Gentleman might say that, but Mr Redwood: It is unfair to say that VAT is a very it is incumbent on Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition to regressive tax. If it were applied across everything, it specify the amounts and where the cuts would be made would be, but because it does not apply to food and in other ways. It is not acceptable to dodge the issue, some other items that figure much more highly in and that goes even for the simple question of what is low-income budgets, it is not nearly as regressive as has “strong growth”. At what stage would that be measured? been suggested. How would we quantify “strong growth”? It is rather mealy-mouthed. Let us look at the wider context. Interest rates are Mr Jackson: Exactly. We could argue at length about historically low. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not old the progressiveness of various taxes—no doubt others enough—or maybe he is—to know that in 1975 they would want to—but my right hon. Friend makes an were 27%, under a Labour Government. Inflation was astute point. substantially higher through most of the ’70s and ’80s. The final example is council tax. That depends on the We now have big cash balances, lower interest rates, local authority, but in general, most councils have frozen relatively low inflation, lots of money in the economy council tax. Therefore, the suite or portfolio of the and quantitative easing, which has been in place for Government’s fiscal changes that have helped working many years. Even if we accept the traditional Keynesian people is quite significant. 555 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 556

[Mr Stewart Jackson] The Chancellor once spoke of the liberal credentials of his public school, so he could change and understand Let me say in finishing that we expect more from an a bit more about the people out there. At the time, The Opposition two and a half years into a Parliament. We Guardian quoted him talking about St Paul’s. He suggested expect them to come up with policies that are credible. that everyone was treated the same and said: We expect them to move on from policies that just tick “It didn’t matter who your parents were. Your mother could be the box of opposition. No doubt the hon. Member for the head of a giant corporation—or a solicitor in Kew”. Kilmarnock and Loudoun, who is well connected in the I have news for the Chancellor. Contrary to his blinkered Labour party, will have read the comments of Tony view, solicitors and captains of industry do not encompass Blair, a three-time election winner, in the 100th anniversary the full imaginable spectrum of socio-economic status. edition of the New Statesman. He cautions the Labour Not everyone out there can absorb VAT increases and party not to fall back into the comfort zone, not to be a not notice the difference. One has to add teachers, repository of anger, but to be an outward-looking, police, social workers, canteen cleaners, domestic staff, forward-looking progressive party. I am sure that the joiners, bricklayers, call centre staff, health care assistants Labour Whip on the Front Bench, the hon. Member for and so many more to one’s list of acquaintances if one Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), would agree with his predecessor is really to understand the impact of his policies on and say that that is sage and intelligent advice. It is so people. because we expect proper, costed policies. What we have The statistics speak for themselves. The impact of the had today is an unfunded tax cut that does not help the VAT increase will cost the lowest-paid workers four people I believe the Labour party genuinely wants to times more than any gain from the £10,000 personal assist to have a better life. I would caution the hon. allowance, when it is introduced in 2014. Like other Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun to come back Labour Members, I approve of the allowance being at with more coherent, more intelligent and more credible that level. It is good that hard-working families can get policies. That is why I will not support new clause 2. extra money, but when the Government take it away with the other hand and people end up paying more, Alex Cunningham: Some Members have chosen to that is not a good thing. talk about billions of pounds. I will speak about the Food prices are also up. I know it has probably been a odd pound and the odd penny, because that is what long time since the Chancellor has nipped around the makes the difference to many of the people I represent. supermarket to do his weekly shop, if he ever has done The cost of living is one of the defining issues of this so, but if he did so regularly he would see that food and Parliament not only because of what the Government other grocery shop prices are somewhat higher than he are doing but because of what they are not doing. imagined and, for many items, way ahead of what his Following the announcement yesterday of a huge increase inflation figures are suggesting. Whether it is the price in unemployment—12,000 in the north-east of England—in of caulies or a budget chicken, my constituents tell me the last hour, we have learnt that another 160 jobs are they are having to pay more, or sadly just do without. going at SABIC, a pharmaceuticals company on Teesside. Families at the bottom of the income scale—on average, That is not good news. on £53.81 a week—will suffer a 6.3% drop in their The Chancellor’s VAT hike has been shown to be a overall income following the VAT rise, personal allowance mistake and it is hitting the vulnerable and those on the increase and other minor tax changes. lower end of the income scale the hardest. Yes, one of the millionaires who uses his £100,000 tax cut under 2.45 pm this Government will pay more VAT than the vast I am unsure why the Government would oppose majority of other people when he buys himself a luxury reducing this regressive burden, and I very much support car, but that will not make the difference to whether my Front-Bench colleagues in arguing for a temporary or not he can buy an extra loaf of bread or a pound cut, which would put extra pounds and pennies in of mince for his family’s evening meal. A cut in VAT of people’s pockets, which they would spend in our economy. 2.5% may just buy some extra peanuts when the banker However, it is not just VAT that is making life more buys his champagne to celebrate his latest million-pound expensive for those without well paid jobs, investment bonus, but it is the people earning peanuts for working portfolios, or savings to support them, like the Chancellor’s hard to support their families who can put the extra solicitor friends in Kew. pound or two from a cut to good use. The National Housing Federation estimates that, The previous Labour Government showed that that across Stockton borough, there are 2,806 losers from works when they temporarily reduced VAT to 15%. The the imposition of the bedroom tax. There is a shortage reduced tax on sales provided an effective stimulus to of one-bedroom properties for tenants to move to, so the economy. Likewise, a VAT hike was always going they have nowhere to go. Why are the Government to suppress consumption, and hit ordinary families in penalising my constituents for choosing not to move to places such as my Stockton North constituency hard. properties that do not exist? How can that be fair? Any reduction in VAT, if not used to put a better meal on the table, could at least contribute a little to that extra rent Jonathan Edwards: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, burden. the rise came in the emergency Budget in 2010. There Again, I say that it is not only VAT and the bedroom was a vote on the rise and the Labour party abstained. tax. Changes to council tax benefit are adding yet more Can he explain the voting record of the Labour party? to the cost of living in areas such as my own. Hundreds of my constituents will see their council tax rise by Alex Cunningham: That is a very difficult question to around £3 per week, or £156 a year—money taken away answer but easy enough to ask. I regret that that happened. by the Government. 557 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 558

One man who suffers from a degenerative condition failure to take any meaningful action on soaring energy came to my advice surgery to tell me that he had a bills has not only cancelled out the council’s good work choice: either he paid the council tax contribution, or he but reversed any progress that has been made. bought his prescription certificate, which provided best The same goes for vehicle fuel. The Chancellor has value for money for his medication. As he buys medicine, repeatedly made great play in his Budgets of freezing food and little else, I know that any cut in VAT would fuel duty, but he has increased the cost with the increase put only a few extra pence in his pocket, but he is simply in VAT. A temporary cut would put money in the desperate. Ministers—I nearly said monsters—will be pockets of motorists and help to stimulate our economy, delighted that he blamed the local council for that new making it easier for people in rural areas and commuter expense, but rest assured that he is now in no doubt towns to get to and from work. More than that, it about who is responsible for taking the very medicine would reduce costs for haulage companies who would out of his mouth, and I am looking across the Chamber charge less for transporting the goods that we need in at them. our shops, again helping to cut prices. We are also feeling the impact of the 1% increase in I urge all Members to support the amendment to annual benefit rates, which as hon. Members will know reduce VAT, which would put more cash into the pockets is a real-terms cut. There are 7,900 people in my constituency of the people most likely to spend it on the essentials in claiming working tax credit, and 15,000 across Stockton life. Such a measure would make life easier for everyone borough as a whole. Each of those people will see a in this country, stimulate much-needed economic growth, real-terms cut thanks to higher inflation, which has reduce unavoidable costs such as fuel costs and provide been caused, in part, by the VAT rise. much-needed respite for my constituents and for people The same goes for the minimum wage. Although the across the country. Government have talked about an increase, this is a real cut in the value of the wage of some of the hardest Mr McKenzie: It is a pleasure to serve under your working and poorest paid in our society. Cutting VAT chairmanship, Sir Roger. would allow us to increase the spending power of those on the minimum wage, although I for one would rather It is blatantly obvious that families up and down the see the wage index-linked at least as we move towards a country are paying the price of the Government’s failure real living wage. to come to terms with the economy and to create growth and prosperity for all. The cost of living has In my constituency, people on very low incomes will never been higher. I speak as someone who brought up be asked to pay sums of money they simply cannot a family in the 1980s, and I thought that times were afford. Like the VAT rise, these policies impact on those hard then. I am now seeing those circumstances repeated least able to bear the burden of their weight, and in my constituency.My constituents, especially the working combine to place near unbearable pressure on them. I families, are finding it extremely hard. support the new clause because I recognise the immense One of the indicators is the rise in unemployment, yet strain that the sky-rocketing cost of living is imposing again, across the country. That illustrates that times are on people across the country. doubly hard for those who can least afford it and who A lower VAT rate would not just ease the strain on are struggling to get employment. In my constituency, families and individuals buckling under the weight of we have been fortunate in keeping unemployment down. the cost of living; it would also help to lower the cost Before Government Members jump to their feet saying, of those things that contribute to that weight. I know “We did it for Inverclyde”, however, let me advise them VAT is at a lower rate on domestic fuel bills, but I return that they did not. The reason that we have been so yet again to the fact that a cut in VAT for everything successful in reducing youth unemployment is that my else, including petrol and diesel, would make life easier Labour-led council has put its money where its mouth for energy customers who have never needed it more is and continued with the future jobs fund for the past than they do now. Everyone is aware of the rocketing two years, to ensure that our young people have a cost of energy. Electricity and gas bills have risen by future. It has ensured that they have employment not 145% over the past decade, and at £1,653 a year they just for a few weeks or months, and it has gone back to account for almost one fifth of household costs the employers and the young people to ensure that their and represent the second biggest share of household employment is sustainable for years. Now, 80% of those expenses, having overtaken council tax. Yet even this given employment places have remained in them for week, we read in The Observer that the big six energy more than a year, and we are glad that that success is companies are making more profit per household than doing something to alleviate unemployment among young ever before. people in Inverclyde. A recent survey by uSwitch found that 14% of households Unfortunately, however, there has been little impact were in debt to their energy supplier, with the average on those who have been unemployed for more than two amount owed standing at 4% higher than last year at years, and the Government have offered them no assistance £131. This is pushing people into fuel poverty. Department other than shipping them off to a private firm to be of Energy and Climate Change projections for 2012 placed in employment somewhere for a week or two. It show that the number of people in fuel poverty across is clear that only Labour can guarantee those people a the country is likely to rise to 3.9 million, a situation job with a living wage. that is fuelled by increases in energy prices. Prices are rising faster than wages. The Office for In Stockton borough, my local council has pioneered Budget Responsibility has confirmed that, by 2015, a unique external cladding and insulation project that people will be worse off than they were in 2010. That has focused on private sector homes and helped to illustrates the result of this Government’s policies. Most bring energy bills down. Unfortunately, the Government’s people in my constituency feel that, while Ministers 559 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 560

[Mr McKenzie] the Olympic games, and in Scotland I am sure we will have great success with the Commonwealth games—but might have read economics at university, it is they who the smaller projects in and around our communities are actually living the economics, day in, day out. The need to happen as well, to stimulate local economies cost of living has never been higher, and that is partly and get things moving. We all know of shovel-ready due to increased food prices. I encourage any Member projects in our areas that need to go ahead, but they are to go round their local supermarket and do their weekly not progressing. shopping, as I do. I see less and less going into the Last year, the Government gave additional funds to trolley, and more and more going into the till at the end the Scottish Government for shovel-ready projects. Where of my shopping trip. Even those families who are thrifty that money has gone remains to be discovered, as to and who shop around and buy own-brand items are date only £10 million has seen the light of day in projects seeing a dramatic increase in their food bills. They are across Scotland. being pushed into using food banks, which is another indicator that times are indeed hard. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ In my constituency, we have the i58 project, in which Co-op): What my hon. Friend says highlights one of one of the local churches has been running a food bank the advantages of the proposal to cut VAT. Even with since last September. I was staggered when I visited it at the best will in the world, investment in infrastructure Christmas. It thought that the numbers of people being can take a long time to get through all the resistance, referred to it had peaked at 1,000—mine is not a large which is why even now, after up to three years of trying, constituency, after all—but the figure has continued to we are still not seeing the full benefits of that, whereas a increase in the new year. It is deeply regrettable that we cut in VAT would have an immediate effect on the high are not seeing any reduction in those numbers. Ever street, and on construction and many other sectors of more families, including working families, have been our economy. That highlights why it is so important referred to food banks. that the VAT cut should go ahead. Even with the steps we have taken in my area to insulate homes to try to keep energy bills as low as Mr McKenzie: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I possible, there have been dramatic increases in households’ visited some of the employers in my area in the Easter energy costs. That seems to happen year in, year out. recess. Time and again they told me they needed a There seems to be no stopping the price rises introduced stimulus to the local economy from a VAT cut, to get by the energy companies. These ever-increasing bills people spending and buying things. My local construction spread fear, particularly among the elderly and those on firms in particular said they needed a reduction in VAT low incomes. People are struggling to pay to heat their to get people to consider going ahead with smaller own homes. In my area of Scotland, investment in projects such as house improvements, thus creating home insulation has been in place for four or five years, employment locally. They felt a VAT cut would serve to yet people are still struggling to pay their energy bills. stimulate that local growth and get things moving; otherwise, they could see only a bleak future, if any Rents have increased recently, too. Not enough homes future at all, for the construction industry. They also are being built, so increasing numbers of people are brought up the continuing difficulty of being closed unable to find social rented accommodation. They are out of local and national Government contracts. The pushed into the private sector, which has taken full procurement process still seems to be far too complex advantage by pushing up rents time and again. That, and to exclude the small and medium-sized businesses too, is having a dramatic impact, particularly on those that could stimulate the local economy. who can least afford to pay. We have already heard about the high fuel prices. Those who are fortunate enough still to be able to 3pm afford to run a vehicle find that the price of petrol at the The problem, as we all know, is that there is no pump increases year after year. A number of approaches growth in the economy. It has flatlined. There has been to the Government have been needed to get them to halt no demand for the products that businesses say would the increases in prices, but we continue to ask for VAT allow them to grow and create employment, and thereby to be removed from fuel. That has one of the biggest help the economy. I support the new clause and think impacts on fuel prices, as was pointed out in an earlier that it would stimulate growth in the economy. intervention. It was also pointed out that we can drop VAT, on an individual basis, from fuel. Mr Gauke: It is a great pleasure to serve under your There is more evidence of hard times to be seen on chairmanship, Sir Roger. the high streets, with shop after shop closing, and brand I will deal with new clause 2 in a moment, but what name after brand name disappearing. The shops that has driven this debate, initiated by the Opposition, is are replacing them are loan shops, bookmakers and the cost of living. That is an important matter for our pawnbrokers, which shows that those on low incomes constituents and the Government recognise the pressures are increasingly having to make visits—perhaps on a that households face. We are taking action to support weekly basis—to such shops in order to bridge the gap households with the cost of living, within the fiscal between what they are receiving and what they are constraints that exist. having to spend on the bare essentials. A key part of that has been to increase the personal The way to deal with the increasing costs of living is allowance. Clause 3 will ensure that the benefits of that through employment. All wealth comes from employment increase are shared fairly. In 2010, when the coalition and we must make sure there are as many jobs as was formed, individuals could earn just £6,475 before possible. We must create jobs by stimulating the introduction they began to pay income tax. Thanks to the actions of of projects throughout the country. We welcome the this Government, from April next year, the figure will large projects, of course—we had great success with be £10,000. That is an increase of £3,525, which means 561 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 562 that the personal allowance will have risen by more than Secondly, the cost of this measure will be £12 billion 50% in just four years, thereby helping our constituents to £13 billion a year. How will that be paid for—that with the cost of living. Our priority has been to help issue was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for those on low and middle incomes, and we have. The Peterborough (Mr Jackson)? Will it be through higher changes in clause 2 mean that a typical basic rate taxes, a reduction in spending or—as we believe—an taxpayer is already nearly £600 better off in cash terms increase in borrowing? What consideration has been under this Government. From next year, that figure will given to the impact on the cost of borrowing? A 1% rise to more than £700. increase in Government bond yields would add around That is not the only action that we are taking to help £8 billion to annual debt interest payments by 2017-18 households with the cost of living. The fuel duty increase and result in an increase of £12 billion in households’ that was planned for September will be cancelled. The mortgage interest payments—the equivalent of £1,000 Finance Bill keeps fuel duty frozen at current levels, for a household with an average mortgage in its first maintaining the longest freeze in fuel duty for 20 years. year. Has the Labour party considered the consequences That is helping households and businesses with the cost of that discretionary fiscal stimulus? of motoring. Fuel duty is 13p per litre lower than it What is Labour’s view on the profile of deficit reduction? would have been had we implemented the Labour party’s We believe that over the whole deficit reduction period, planned increases. We have also taken action to help local 80% should be achieved through spending cuts and 20% authorities in England to freeze their council tax for the through tax increases. The Darling plan had two thirds third year in a row and to cap rail fares for commuters. on spending cuts and one third on tax increases. What is the view of the Labour party, given that it has put in Albert Owen: The Minister and his Front-Bench front of the Committee a proposal for a £12 billion or colleagues are always talking about the freeze in fuel £13 billion tax cut? Does it suggest that the ratio should duty, which I welcome and for which I campaigned. lean more towards public spending cuts rather than tax However, has the Treasury made any calculations on rises? What assessment has Labour made of the impact the extra 2.5p in each pound that ordinary hard-working of different taxes on the economy? My right hon. families spend on their petrol at the pump because of Friend the Member for Wokingham mentioned the fact their measures? that VAT is, as many economists would argue, less harmful to growth than other taxes. Is that the view of Mr Gauke: Of course, that has been far outweighed the Labour party? Why has VAT been picked as a by the steps that we have taken to reduce fuel duty. The particular issue? net effect has been a substantial reduction in the amount of tax collected for every litre of petrol. The Labour party does not come forward with policies often, but I am pleased that it has done so today so that New clause 2 returns us to the big, fundamental Labour Members have the opportunity to tell the economic argument that we have been having for some Committee exactly what their policy is. They can explain years on deficit reduction. I could deliver the standard that policy, and if they would care to answer those speech that we give in such circumstances about how it questions the Committee will be able to judge whether it is a strange way to deal with a debt crisis to try to should support new clause 2. My advice to my right increase borrowing. However, this is one of those rare hon. and hon. Friends is that this is just more of the occasions when the Opposition have put forward a same from the Labour party. It is more borrowing and policy and we have an opportunity to ask questions more debt, and it fails to get to grips with the fiscal about it. I know that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock situation and the mess in which the Labour party left and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) will be keen to enlighten this country and which we, the coalition Government, the House on the policy she has set out in new clause 2, are addressing. and if I may, I will ask a number of questions— [Interruption.] I am sorry; there seems to be some objection from the Labour party. New clause 2 is being Cathy Jamieson: It is an interesting experience to see proposed by the Labour party. I want to ask questions Ministers ask a whole range of questions without addressing about the policy behind it, so let me ask those questions. why we introduced the proposal. The Minister failed to First—this is the point raised by my right hon. Friend recognise work that shows how VAT hits those on lower the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood)—new clause 2 incomes disproportionately hard. He shakes his head states that VAT will be reduced until “strong growth” is but we can point to research which backs that up and achieved. What is strong growth? businesses that say—I have spoken to people personally as I am sure have other hon. Members—that a temporary Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I cannot cut in VAT would help to stimulate the economy and believe he said that. growth. The Minister asks what the definition of strong growth would be. It certainly is not what this Government Mr Gauke: That term is used in a new clause tabled have provided. by the Labour party. Mr Gauke: The Opposition propose a new clause that Chris Leslie rose— depends on the definition of “strong growth” but do not tell us what that means. They object to questions Mr Gauke: I would give way to the hon. Gentleman, being asked about what the new clause means. It is the but he was not here for the early part of the debate. He hon. Lady’s new clause, so will she tell the Committee may not have read the new clause, but the policy depends what she is getting at, why she has chosen VAT, what the on the definition of “strong growth” and the Labour fiscal implications will be, and what will happen if party has not provided a definition of that. borrowing goes up by £12 billion or £13 billion? 563 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 564

Cathy Jamieson: I am sure the Minister has heard Jarvis, Dan Pearce, Teresa what I have said. We believe that the new clause is one Johnson, rh Alan Perkins, Toby measure that can be introduced now to ensure that Johnson, Diana Pound, Stephen there is a stimulus in the economy. Jones, Graham Powell, Lucy Jones, Helen Qureshi, Yasmin The Government believe that consistently high rates Jones, Mr Kevan Raynsford, rh Mr Nick of VAT are helpful to the economy. The Opposition Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Reed, Mr Jamie disagree and believe there is an alternative. I find it Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reed, Mr Steve interesting that the Minister constantly presses Opposition Lammy, rh Mr David Reynolds, Emma Members to define “strong growth” when it is clear that Lavery, Ian Riordan, Mrs Linda the Government’s policies are introducing something Lazarowicz, Mark Robertson, Angus that is far from strong growth. It is important to recognise Leslie, Chris Robertson, John that, once again, the Opposition are standing up for the Lewis, Mr Ivan Rotheram, Steve people whose incomes are being squeezed and who are Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Roy, Mr Frank being hit hard by the Government’s policies. The Minister Love, Mr Andrew Ruddock, rh Dame Joan can shake his head as much as he likes, but he knows in Lucas, Caroline Sawford, Andy his heart of hearts that the Opposition are speaking out Lucas, Ian Seabeck, Alison MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Sharma, Mr Virendra for the people who are hit hardest by the Government’s Mactaggart, Fiona Sheridan, Jim policies. That is why I intend to press new clause 2 to a Mahmood, Shabana Shuker, Gavin Division. Malhotra, Seema Skinner, Mr Dennis Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Mann, John Slaughter, Mr Andy Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Angela The Committee divided: Ayes 193, Noes 244. McCann, Mr Michael Smith, Nick Division No. 216] [3.11 pm McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Owen McClymont, Gregg Spellar, rh Mr John AYES McDonagh, Siobhain Stuart, Ms Gisela McDonald, Andy Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Abrahams, Debbie Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McDonnell, John Tami, Mark Ali, Rushanara Doran, Mr Frank McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thomas, Mr Gareth Allen, Mr Graham Doughty, Stephen McGovern, Alison Thornberry, Emily Ashworth, Jonathan Dowd, Jim McGovern, Jim Trickett, Jon Austin, Ian Doyle, Gemma McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Twigg, Derek Bailey, Mr Adrian Dromey, Jack McKechin, Ann Umunna, Mr Chuka Bain, Mr William Dugher, Michael McKenzie, Mr Iain Vaz, Valerie Bayley, Hugh Eagle, Ms Angela McKinnell, Catherine Watson, Mr Tom Benton, Mr Joe Edwards, Jonathan Meacher, rh Mr Michael Watts, Mr Dave Berger, Luciana Efford, Clive Mearns, Ian Weir, Mr Mike Betts, Mr Clive Esterson, Bill Mitchell, Austin Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Blackman-Woods, Roberta Farrelly, Paul Morden, Jessica Whitehead, Dr Alan Blears, rh Hazel Fitzpatrick, Jim Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Williams, Hywel Blenkinsop, Tom Flello, Robert Morris, Grahame M. Williamson, Chris Blunkett, rh Mr David Flint, rh Caroline (Easington) Brown, Lyn Flynn, Paul Wilson, Phil Mudie, Mr George Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Fovargue, Yvonne Winnick, Mr David Munn, Meg Brown, Mr Russell Gapes, Mike Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Murphy, rh Paul Bryant, Chris Gardiner, Barry Wishart, Pete Murray, Ian Buck, Ms Karen Gilmore, Sheila Woodcock, John Nandy, Lisa Burden, Richard Glass, Pat Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Nash, Pamela Burnham, rh Andy Glindon, Mrs Mary Wright, David O’Donnell, Fiona Byrne, rh Mr Liam Godsiff, Mr Roger Wright, Mr Iain Onwurah, Chi Campbell, Mr Alan Goodman, Helen Osborne, Sandra Tellers for the Ayes: Caton, Martin Green, Kate Owen, Albert Heidi Alexander and Champion, Sarah Griffith, Nia Paisley, Ian Susan Elan Jones Clark, Katy Gwynne, Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hamilton, Mr David Coaker, Vernon Hamilton, Fabian NOES Cooper, Rosie Hanson, rh Mr David Adams, Nigel Beresford, Sir Paul Cooper, rh Yvette Harman, rh Ms Harriet Afriyie, Adam Berry, Jake Corbyn, Jeremy Harris, Mr Tom Aldous, Peter Blackman, Bob Creasy, Stella Hendrick, Mark Andrew, Stuart Blackwood, Nicola Cruddas, Jon Hillier, Meg Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Blunt, Mr Crispin Cryer, John Hilling, Julie Bacon, Mr Richard Bone, Mr Peter Cunningham, Alex Hodge, rh Margaret Baker, Steve Bottomley, Sir Peter Cunningham, Mr Jim Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Baldry, Sir Tony Bradley, Karen Dakin, Nic Hoey, Kate David, Wayne Hopkins, Kelvin Baldwin, Harriett Brady, Mr Graham Davidson, Mr Ian Hosie, Stewart Barclay, Stephen Brake, rh Tom De Piero, Gloria Howarth, rh Mr George Barker, rh Gregory Bray, Angie Denham, rh Mr John Hunt, Tristram Baron, Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Dobbin, Jim Irranca-Davies, Huw Barwell, Gavin Bridgen, Andrew Dobson, rh Frank Jackson, Glenda Beith, rh Sir Alan Brine, Steve Docherty, Thomas Jamieson, Cathy Bellingham, Mr Henry Bruce, Fiona 565 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 566

Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hoban, Mr Mark Randall, rh Mr John Syms, Mr Robert Buckland, Mr Robert Hollingbery, George Reckless, Mark Teather, Sarah Burns, Conor Hollobone, Mr Philip Redwood, rh Mr John Thornton, Mike Burns, rh Mr Simon Howarth, Sir Gerald Rees-Mogg, Jacob Thurso, John Burstow, rh Paul Howell, John Reevell, Simon Timpson, Mr Edward Burt, Alistair Hughes, rh Simon Reid, Mr Alan Tomlinson, Justin Burt, Lorely Huppert, Dr Julian Robertson, rh Hugh Turner, Mr Andrew Byles, Dan Hurd, Mr Nick Robertson, Mr Laurence Tyrie, Mr Andrew Cairns, Alun Jackson, Mr Stewart Rogerson, Dan Uppal, Paul Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair James, Margot Rosindell, Andrew Vaizey, Mr Edward Carmichael, Neil Javid, Sajid Rudd, Amber Vara, Mr Shailesh Cash, Mr William Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ruffley, Mr David Vickers, Martin Chishti, Rehman Johnson, Gareth Russell, Sir Bob Walker, Mr Charles Chope, Mr Christopher Johnson, Joseph Rutley, David Walker, Mr Robin Clappison, Mr James Jones, Mr Marcus Sandys, Laura Wallace, Mr Ben Clark, rh Greg Kelly, Chris Scott, Mr Lee Watkinson, Dame Angela Coffey, Dr Thérèse Kirby, Simon Selous, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Collins, Damian Knight, rh Mr Greg Sharma, Alok Webb, Steve Cox, Mr Geoffrey Kwarteng, Kwasi Simpson, Mr Keith Wharton, James Crouch, Tracey Laing, Mrs Eleanor Skidmore, Chris White, Chris Davies, Glyn Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Smith, Miss Chloe Whittaker, Craig de Bois, Nick Latham, Pauline Smith, Henry Whittingdale, Mr John Dinenage, Caroline Laws, rh Mr David Smith, Julian Wiggin, Bill Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Leadsom, Andrea Smith, Sir Robert Willetts, rh Mr David Doyle-Price, Jackie Lee, Jessica Soames, rh Nicholas Williams, Mr Mark Duddridge, James Lee, Dr Phillip Soubry, Anna Williams, Roger Duncan, rh Mr Alan Leech, Mr John Spencer, Mr Mark Williams, Stephen Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Leigh, Mr Edward Stanley, rh Sir John Williamson, Gavin Ellis, Michael Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Stephenson, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Ellison, Jane Lewis, Brandon Stewart, Bob Wright, Simon Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lilley, rh Mr Peter Stewart, Iain Yeo, Mr Tim Elphicke, Charlie Lloyd, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Young, rh Sir George Eustice, George Lord, Jonathan Stride, Mel Zahawi, Nadhim Evans, Graham Loughton, Tim Stunell, rh Andrew Evennett, Mr David Luff, Peter Sturdy, Julian Tellers for the Noes: Fabricant, Michael Lumley, Karen Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Mark Lancaster and Featherstone, Lynne Main, Mrs Anne Swinson, Jo Mark Hunter Field, Mark Maude, rh Mr Francis Fox,rhDrLiam Maynard, Paul Question accordingly negatived. Francois, rh Mr Mark McIntosh, Miss Anne Freer, Mike McVey, Esther Fuller, Richard Menzies, Mark Garnier, Sir Edward Mercer, Patrick Clause 3 Garnier, Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Gauke, Mr David Miller, rh Maria BASIC RATE LIMIT FOR 2013-14 George, Andrew Mills, Nigel Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Milton, Anne Glen, John Mordaunt, Penny Cathy Jamieson: I beg to move amendment 10, page 2, Goldsmith, Zac Morgan, Nicky line 11, at end add— Goodwill, Mr Robert Morris, Anne Marie ‘(3) The Chancellor shall produce a report on subsection (1) Graham, Richard Mosley, Stephen which shall include an assessment of the impact of changes to Grant, Mrs Helen Mowat, David taxation on the living standards of basic rate taxpayers which Gray, Mr James Mulholland, Greg shall be placed in the House of Commons Library within three Green, rh Damian Newton, Sarah months of Royal Assent.’. Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Nokes, Caroline Griffiths, Andrew Nuttall, Mr David The Temporary Chairman (Sir Roger Gale): With this Gummer, Ben Ollerenshaw, Eric it will be convenient to discuss clause 3 stand part. Gyimah, Mr Sam Ottaway, Richard Halfon, Robert Paice, rh Sir James Cathy Jamieson: It is a pleasure to be back at the Hancock, Matthew Parish, Neil Dispatch Box. Had amendment 4 been selected for Hands, Greg Patel, Priti debate, we could have engaged in further discussion Harrington, Richard Paterson, rh Mr Owen about the mansion tax and the 10p income tax rate. Harris, Rebecca Pawsey, Mark However, I think that some of the broader issues that I Harvey, Sir Nick Penning, Mike shall raise in relation to clause 3 are relevant to that Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Penrose, John subject. Hayes, rh Mr John Percy, Andrew Heald, Oliver Perry, Claire Clause 3 sets the 2013-14 basic rate limit for income Heaton-Harris, Chris Phillips, Stephen tax at £32,010. In doing so, it overrides the indexed Hemming, John Pincher, Christopher amount, which would otherwise have been set at £35,300 Henderson, Gordon Prisk, Mr Mark as announced in the 2012 autumn statement. The Herbert, rh Nick Pugh, John explanatory notes on the clause state that it is Hinds, Damian Raab, Mr Dominic “part of a package of measures”. 567 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 568

[Cathy Jamieson] families. Those are real-terms cuts that will affect 9.7 million households, of which 7.3 million, or 75%, are working I shall say something further about the implications of households, according to the IFS. that package of measures as we go on. Effectively, the If we take into account all of the tax and benefit rise in the personal allowance from £8,105 to £9,440 for changes introduced since 2010, including the personal this year and the rise to £10,000 from 2014, however allowance package of which the Government are so welcome they are and regardless of the difficulties raised proud, analysis of figures published by the independent concerning those who will not necessarily benefit, will IFS shows that families will be £891 worse off on in part be clawed back by the measures implemented in average in the new financial year. If the Government do this clause and a further reduction in the basic rate limit not want to listen to independent figures, how about next year to £31,865. looking at their own figures? According to the distributional We have heard a lot of warm words from the Government analysis issued by the Treasury after the Budget, the about the package. The Chancellor called the rise in the cumulative impact in cash terms for the bottom 10% of personal allowance an households from tax, tax credit and benefit measures in “historic achievement for this Government and for hard-working 2013-14 would result in a £200 reduction in incomes for families across the country.”—[Official Report, 20 March 2013; the poorest group in society. What the Government are Vol. 560, c. 944.] giving with one hand, they are taking away, and more, However, as we heard in the previous debate, there is with the other. Perhaps the most shameful and the most not that much celebration going on at the moment concerning of all are the Government’s own figures among most ordinary hard-working families across the revealing that the changes to support, including in-work country who are seeing their incomes squeezed. There is support for basic rate taxpayers, will push a further concern that the announcement and the clause are just 200,000 children into poverty. That is the real package smoke and mirrors. that we should be concerned about. I do not want to repeat the points we made in the The Government have an opportunity here to take earlier debate, but extensive mention has been made of that on board, carry out the assessment and provide the fact that the Opposition will welcome any steps that the report. That would be important for both parts will help families and hard-working people through of the coalition. Some people have chosen to characterise these tough economic times. However, we do not believe the changes that the Government have made as marking that these measures go nearly far enough to make up for the return of the nasty party. Perhaps we would not be what many basic rate taxpayers have already lost thanks entirely surprised at the steps that the Conservatives to the tax and benefit changes made by this Government. have taken, but many supporters of the other part of Those measures have indisputably taken money out of the coalition, the Liberal Democrats, who voted in the pockets of people who need it. these measures, will be surprised, and I hope Liberal It is important that we consider the changes in the Democrat Members will consider supporting us to round rather than focusing on individual measures. ensure—I see heads shaking so I can only assume they That is why we, through a fairly mild-mannered amendment, are supporting the Conservative cuts and the measures are calling on the Government to produce a report that that the Conservative part of the coalition is taking. I would comprehensively assess the impact of changes to am disappointed that they would not even support the taxation on the living standards of basic rate taxpayers. production of the report that the amendment calls for. As we all know, times are incredibly tough for families If the Government are confident of their actions, up and down the country, for pensioners and for hard- if they have nothing to hide, and if members of the working people who are paying taxes. coalition, including the Liberal Democrats, honestly Basic rate taxpayers, who work hard and try to do believe that all the changes they are making are for the the right thing, are the ones who are hurting. That has best and that Labour has got it wrong—as they consistently been backed up by various external organisations and try to portray in the face of evidence and despite the commentators, including Citizens Advice, which said opinion of independent commentators—and if they about the rise in the personal allowance for basic rate honestly believe that the changes will help basic rate taxpayers: taxpayers, will make work pay and will help boost the “This is obviously helpful to all basic rate taxpayers. A single economy, then why do they not agree to commission a person with earnings of £30,000 a year will for example, gain report, which would look straightforwardly at how the £5.12 a week in April and will have gained the full £11.37 from the changes will impact on the living standards of basic rate rise in the personal allowance…However”— taxpayers? With regard to the impact on those brought and this is the important point— into the higher rate of tax, I hope the Minister will be “this does not mean that families on low or even middle earnings able to clarify the number of people affected. will see an actual gain of this much: any rise in net earnings leads We in the Opposition do not believe that the measures to a reduction in housing benefit and council tax benefit.” in the package proposed by the Government go far We feel that the assessment and report are important enough. We have outlined other elements that could be because, in reality, 2.4 million families on low incomes included to help those who are suffering as a result of will pay on average £138 more in council tax in the year the failed economic policies. As I said in an earlier 2013-14 as a result of cuts to council tax benefit, debate, we do not accept the Government’s mantra that according to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation; 660,000 we are all in it together—not while cuts to tax credits, people will lose an average of £728 a year or £14 a week in-work support, council tax and housing benefit, maternity as a result of the “bedroom tax”, according to figures pay, sick pay and a range of other benefits are impacting from the IFS; and child benefit will be frozen for a third on people who are hard at work. Those changes are year, while tax credits and other working age benefits being made in the very same month as 267,000 people will increase by just 1%, causing problems for many earning over £150,000 will benefit from a cut in the top 569 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 570 rate of tax, including 13,000 people earning over £1 million, that people can keep more of the money they earn, we who will each receive an average tax cut of £100,000. will stimulate the economy, reward work and alter the Again, I am using the Government’s own figures to balance between dependency and opportunity. make those comparisons. I am delighted that Ministers have been able to bring People throughout the country are saying that that forward planned changes to the income tax threshold simply is not fair and it is not good enough to get the by a year so that workers at the lower end of the wage economy working and growth moving again. People spectrum will not have to wait until 2015 to pay less tax. believe it is not fair that while some of the wealthiest in As a result of the changes announced in the Budget, our society are receiving £100,000 back from the more than 34,000 people in Worcester will receive a tax Government, those at the other end of the scale, those cut and 3,370 people who would have been paying least able to do so, have been asked to shoulder a bigger income tax in 2010 will pay none at all. That will not burden. only reward those people, but directly stimulate our I am conscious of the time. Other hon. Members local economy—we have heard from Labour Members want to speak and we want to hear the Minister’s about the importance of people having money in their response. I ask the Minister and those on the Government pockets to spend in the shops. In four years, the threshold Benches to recognise the amendment as a straightforward at which people have to pay tax will have been raised by request for a report to be provided. If the Government 50%, which is good news for millions of part-time are confident about what they are doing and if they workers who have been taken out of the tax system have nothing to hide or to fear and they want to altogether and full-time workers on average earnings produce such a report, we of course will work with who benefit from a reduced burden of income tax. them on that. Sadly, I have my doubts whether that The Opposition have downplayed those changes and offer will be accepted but I am always open to being focused on changes to tax credits to argue that some surprised by the Minister, and I look forward to hearing working families will be worse off. In doing so, they that, for once, he will accept our mild-mannered, show a profound misunderstanding of the pride people straightforward amendment and commit to producing take in the money they earn and their desire to support the report. themselves. It is far better for the individual and their family to earn their money, keep the fruits of their Mr Robin Walker: It is a pleasure to take part in this labour and be able to spend it as they see fit than for it debate and to speak about one of the most important to be taken away and for the individual to be dependent and beneficial changes announced in the Budget. In on the faceless benignity of an all-knowing state that dealing with the clause stand part element of the debate, might choose to hand a proportion of it back—might—but I intend to talk about the level of the basic rate of that, if Labour ever gets control of the Treasury again, income tax and, more importantly, the increase in the might find itself without the means to do so. threshold, which, as the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) said, are directly linked. To listen to some of the speeches we have heard from I would first like to clarify one point, having been the Opposition over the past few weeks, one might be contacted by a very concerned constituent who had forgiven for believing that the tax credits system, as it heard that the basic rate for the top level of tax was currently stands, was a vital part of Attlee’s welfare being reduced to £32,000 and, as she earns £35,000, was state and a bastion of the post-war consensus; it is not worried that she will suddenly become a 40% taxpayer. and it was not. In its current form, it is the creation It is important to clarify that the basic rate thresholds not of a Beveridge or a Bevan, but of the right hon. are set on top of the threshold for paying income tax Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), and that no one is being asked to pay the 40p higher rate who so rarely graces the House with his presence. I am until they earn £41,450. glad that that complex system, which takes money away from working people to feed it through the Government sausage machine and re-allocate some of it, is to be Stewart Hosie: Of course, that is only part of the rolled into universal credit and reformed to ensure that story, because the threshold before one pays 40% has work will always pay. gone down from £37,500 to £32,000, a reduction of over £5,000, while the 20% threshold has gone from It is far better to remove the tax from thousands of £6,500 to £10,000, which is an increase of only £3,500. hard-working people in my constituency, and millions In fact, 670,000 more people are now paying the 40p across the country, so that they can keep the money rate than were doing so three years ago, so many more they have earned for their needs, their homes and their people now fall within a tax band that used to be only families. If we are to support families, it is far better, as for the rich. the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) has argued, to use public money to invest in early intervention Mr Walker: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. I had than to use it to prop up a complex system of credits thought that his party was in favour of progressive that fails properly to support work and has always taxation. Certainly, I believe that raising the income tax failed to reach millions of the people who, in theory, are threshold and taking many people out of tax is one of eligible for it. the coalition Government’s great achievements. It was a The fact that the Government are increasing the tax Liberal Democrat policy at the general election, and on threshold shows that we are rewarding work at the same this occasion I will admit that they had an excellent time as simplifying the tax system. The fact that we have idea. been able to bring forward those changes shows that The coalition Government are right to recognise that there is a sense of urgency about delivering an unalloyed it is vital to make work pay and that that cannot be public benefit, which many Labour Members have done through welfare reforms alone. By also ensuring supported today. 571 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 572

[Mr Robin Walker] of that valuable change and do even more to make work pay. I urge Ministers to consider it for the future I would argue that the same sense of urgency should and commend them on the difficult job that they are be brought to the issue of child care support for working doing well. families. The Prime Minister set out exciting policies on that before the Budget but my constituents are being Sheila Gilmore: The hon. Member for Worcester asked to wait until 2015 for the support. I have heard (Mr Walker) has perpetuated some of the myths about from many constituents who are delighted to hear that some of the last Government’s policies. For example, it will be available through the tax system but are then he suggested that it would be better to put money into devastated to realise that by the time it is implemented, early intervention—presumably, that would involve paying their children will have grown out of the eligibility things such as tax credits. Of course, it was not an criteria. either/or. If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing now. I urge Anyone looking at the setting up of Sure Start and all the bright and brilliant men and women of the Treasury the reports that were done on the importance of early to bend their backs to the task of bringing those valuable intervention would see that we did not think, as is initiatives forward in the shortest possible time. While sometimes suggested, that the only solution to deprivation, they are at it, I urge them to consider a proper transferable child poverty and so on was simply to put money in. married person’s tax allowance to support the family. Money is part of the issue, but we certainly did not see I welcome many initiatives in the Budget and I hope things in terms of either/or. All the people up and down that the Chair will not rule me out of order if I touch the country who have seen reductions in Sure Start briefly on a few of the others that will make a real services, for example, see that now it is not only not difference to people in Worcester. Freezing once again either/or—in many cases, it is neither/nor. the duty on fuel is more than welcome and much It is all very well for the Government to say, “We’re appreciated. Removing the much loathed beer duty leaving you your own money so that is fine,” but the escalator will raise a toast in many of Worcester’s pubs. bottom line is that people have less money in their The employment allowance will help more small businesses pockets. What has been suggested is a give-away in to create vitally needed jobs. income tax is more than balanced, for many low-paid workers, by the reduction in tax credits and other Returning to my opening remarks and the matter provision. What matters to those people is how much under consideration, I make one suggestion for the they have to spend. Saying, “Oh, it’s wonderful that future, and I sincerely hope that Treasury Ministers can you’re getting to keep your own money” is no use. They take it on board. Raising the income tax threshold is cannot necessarily buy the things that they need. and has been the right thing to do, and it remains so. It is wonderful that we have brought forward to 2014 the The situation with child care is similar. The hon. date at which the threshold will reach the magic number Member for Worcester was right to say that the Government of £10,000. However, today we should open a debate measure on that is not coming in right now; moreover, about that number. The figure of £10,000 was not many people have already seen a cut in help. Child care worked out by economists or in careful consultation tax credits were cut by the Government for many low-paid with employers and workers, nor was it based on any working families, so it has already happened. reflection of financial reality; it was drawn up as a The tax credits system was particularly beneficial for manifesto promise in a party conference on the eve of single parents, over 350,000 of whom went into employment an election. as a direct result. There are serious concerns about In my view, the Conservative party missed out by not universal credit as the answer to all this, particularly for making that promise ourselves. Today we should start single parents. Gingerbread and other organisations to consider the level at which the threshold for income representing single parents have pointed out that their tax should be set in the future. I believe that it should be position could be worse under universal credit. the same as the earnings of a full-time worker on the minimum wage. 3.45 pm Not only that, but there are changes to the restrictions Stephen Williams: I was hoping that my hon. Friend and conditions put on to single parents when they go would make that point. He has already acknowledged back into work. Under the previous Government, they the Liberal Democrat pledge on the £10,000 threshold had real flexibility and an understanding that the kind at the last election. We have already decided that at the of work they could do had to tie in with their family next general election we are going to link the income tax and caring responsibilities. Those flexibilities are going threshold to the national minimum wage, which is currently to be swept aside under universal credit. The regulations £12,071. If my hon. Friend is about to say that he endorses now contain only one from a whole group of flexibilities. the Liberal Democrat position at the next general election, For that group in particular, and possibly for others, I will welcome that. this system, far from being better, may well be worse. In other respects, strangely, the Government are not Mr Walker: I will certainly urge my party to adopt a so keen on people keeping their own money. Some similar position. Raising the threshold to £11,500 or changes have actually punished people for saving and £12,000 in future Budgets would help millions more being careful. One of those was the restriction on the people and provide further stimulus. That, along with receipt of employment and support allowance to a year. other policies that my party supports, and which the That means that at the end of that year, people who Liberal Democrats do not always support, such as have savings, or have an early retirement pension because keeping a freeze on council tax, could make a real they retired sick, or have a partner in work but often difference. Raising the threshold would extend the legacy only part-time work, no longer receive the benefit, so 573 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 574 suddenly their income is reduced by as much as £91 a should be shared with higher rate taxpayers. This supports week. The argument we were given was that people growth by increasing the rewards to work for a wide should use up their own savings first before the state range of individuals. helps them. The £1,335 increase from April 2013 was announced Under universal credit, somebody in employment in two parts. For the increase of £1,100 announced at who has capital over the level of £6,000 will begin to Budget 2012, rather than pass on the full benefit of the have any benefit they get reduced as a result, and if they personal allowance to higher rate taxpayers, an equivalent have more than £16,000, they will lose it altogether. amount of funding was provided to assist in the fair People who may have been saving for their retirement or implementation of the child benefit reforms. However, saving with a view to being able to buy a house, will find gains from the additional £235 increase announced at that they have to use that money up, because that is autumn statement 2012 have been passed on equally. what the Government are saying. Not all these policies At that time the Government also decided that the are even coherent. Let us look properly at the effects of higher rate tax threshold—the point above which the tax rates on all income groups, because it would be very higher rate tax starts to be paid—will increase by 1% in helpful to everyone if we did so. both 2014-15 and 2015-16. These will be cash increases, the first in this Parliament, and they will ensure that Mr Gauke: Clause 3 sets the basic rate limit for higher rate taxpayers will gain equally from future income tax for the 2013-14 tax year. Let me make it increases to the personal allowance. The Government clear at the outset, as I did in the previous debate, that recognise that these are below-inflation increases, so we understand the financial pressures faced by households. they also raise about £1 billion in revenue to support As a Government, we have taken action to reward our efforts to deal with the large deficit we inherited employment and to support hard-working families. That from the Labour party. We make no attempts to conceal is why we have increased the personal allowance. I that and have been very open and up front about it. endorse the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Opposition amendment 10 calls for a report on the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) in support of the cost of living for basic rate taxpayers. As I have said, we policy we have pursued. Budget 2013 announced that recognise the pressures that households face and we are we will go further, with the personal allowance increasing taking action to support them with the cost of living. by a further £560 to reach £10,000 in 2014-15, meeting Indeed, in our debate earlier this afternoon I set out the Government’s commitment a whole year early. These some of the policies. I have touched in this speech on changes will benefit 25 million individuals and will take the personal allowance and one could also point to our 2.7 million people out of income tax altogether by April policies on fuel duty and beer duty, which were announced 2014. in the recent Budget, and on council tax, which are all Clause 3 reduces the basic rate limit by £2,360 to intended to relive households from some of the pressures £32,010 in 2013-14. When combined with the £1,335 they face. increase in the personal allowance provided for by The Government have taken unprecedented steps to clause 2, the higher rate tax threshold for 2013-14 will publish a distributional analysis alongside each Budget be reduced to £41,450. This allowance increase will and autumn statement document. Such analysis shows benefit all taxpayers with incomes below £116,000 by the impact of all the Government’s policies on household £200 a year on average in real terms. About 30% of the incomes and separates the impact of tax measures from gains from the personal allowance increase for 2013-14 their other policies. It is important to consider all the will be shared with most higher-rate taxpayers. The Government’s policies, not just their taxation measures. national insurance upper earnings and profits limits The distributional analysis published at the Budget remain aligned with the higher rate tax threshold. shows that the top 20% of households continue to make It might be helpful if I set out the reasons for this the greatest contribution towards reducing the deficit, change. I have explained that this coalition Government both as a percentage of their income and in cash terms. are committed to creating a fairer tax system that We believe that producing a further report to supplement rewards work, with real-terms progress every year towards that would be unnecessary and a waste of money. increasing the personal allowance to £10,000. We are We have debated the wider point of the cost of living meeting that target one year ahead of schedule and the in two debates this afternoon, although admittedly final step towards it will be legislated on in next year’s this second debate has been short. As I made clear, Finance Bill. For now, the £1,335 increase in the personal the Government recognise the considerable pressures, allowance, introduced by clause 2, represents a major consequent on rising commodity, food and fuel prices, milestone on the journey to £10,000. The changes that that our constituents have felt strongly in recent years. we are making for the 2013-14 tax year will lift an The Government have taken difficult decisions to try additional 1.1 million individuals out of income tax to reduce the deficit, and undeniably that has had an altogether and give 24 million taxpayers an average impact on people, but we ought to be straight with the real-terms gain of more than £200 a year. For the British public: whoever is in government will have to typical basic rate taxpayer, that will mean an extra take measures to reduce the deficit. Anyone in a position £267 of cash in their pocket for 2013-14, which is an of responsibility has to recognise that we cannot continue extra £5 a week since the start of the new tax year. borrowing 11% or 12% of our economy. [HON.MEMBERS: On the specific issue of gains for higher rate taxpayers, “But you are!”] While in office, we have reduced the when increasing the personal allowance by £10,000 in deficit by a third. 2011-12 we also had to make sure it was consistent with Having listened to Opposition speeches this afternoon, bringing the public finances under control. Therefore, I do not for one moment doubt their sincerity, but there higher rate taxpayers did not benefit from that increase. has been the temptation to ignore the fact that there is a However, we decided that the benefits of later increases very large deficit that has to be dealt with by raising 575 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 576

[Mr Gauke] Brown, Lyn Jackson, Glenda Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Jamieson, Cathy taxes, cutting spending or a combination of the two, Brown, Mr Russell Jarvis, Dan and to pretend otherwise is to not be straight with the Bryant, Chris Johnson, rh Alan British public. Some of this afternoon’s speeches have Buck, Ms Karen Johnson, Diana given every indication that Labour is content with being Burden, Richard Jones, Graham Burnham, rh Andy Jones, Helen a repository for people’s anger. To use even stronger Byrne, rh Mr Liam Jones, Mr Kevan language, Labour often gives every indication of being Campbell, Mr Alan Jowell, rh Dame Tessa simple fellow-travellers in sympathy, but not leaders. Caton, Martin Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald That is Labour’s approach. Champion, Sarah Lammy, rh Mr David Clark, Katy Lavery, Ian Sheila Gilmore: Would the Minister not rather be Clarke, rh Mr Tom Lazarowicz, Mark understanding of people’s very real anger than just Coaker, Vernon Leslie, Chris ignore it? [Interruption.] Cooper, Rosie Lewis, Mr Ivan Cooper, rh Yvette Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Mr Gauke: As the Financial Secretary to the Treasury Corbyn, Jeremy Love, Mr Andrew points out, people should be angry about the state of Creasy, Stella Lucas, Caroline the public finances left to us by the Labour party. I Cryer, John Lucas, Ian described Labour as the “repository for people’s anger” Cunningham, Alex MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Cunningham, Mr Jim Mactaggart, Fiona and as a “simply fellow-traveller in sympathy”, not Dakin, Nic Mahmood, Shabana leaders, because those were the words of the last successful David, Wayne Malhotra, Seema leader of the Labour party, Tony Blair. I am afraid that Davidson, Mr Ian Mann, John Labour is too often in its comfort zone. We know that De Piero, Gloria Marsden, Mr Gordon there are pressures on living standards, but ignoring the Denham, rh Mr John McCann, Mr Michael deficit is no way to deal with them. The Government Dobbin, Jim McCarthy, Kerry are prepared to take those difficult decisions, while Dobson, rh Frank McClymont, Gregg Labour is failing to address them. Docherty, Thomas McDonald, Andy Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McDonnell, John Cathy Jamieson: I am disappointed to hear the Minister Doran, Mr Frank McFadden, rh Mr Pat resort once again to the same tired, old mantra. Doughty, Stephen McGovern, Alison Dowd, Jim McGovern, Jim We have listened this afternoon to some passionate Doyle, Gemma McGuire, rh Mrs Anne speeches from Opposition Members talking about the Dugher, Michael McKechin, Ann very real experiences of their constituents, and it is Eagle, Ms Angela McKenzie, Mr Iain disappointing that once again the Government choose Edwards, Jonathan McKinnell, Catherine not to recognise them. They do not seem to recognise Efford, Clive Meacher, rh Mr Michael their responsibility for the deficit and debt now—for Engel, Natascha Mearns, Ian the fact that they have to borrow more, for the lack of Esterson, Bill Mitchell, Austin growth, for the fact that people are not getting back Field, rh Mr Frank Morden, Jessica into work in the way we would want and for the Fitzpatrick, Jim Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) problems with living standards. Flello, Robert Morris, Grahame M. Flint, rh Caroline (Easington) Sadly, we saw some crocodile tears from the Minister, Flynn, Paul Munn, Meg who on the one hand wants to say, “Yes, we understand Fovargue, Yvonne Murphy, rh Paul the impact on people”, but on the other is not prepared Gapes, Mike Murray, Ian to do anything about it. Opposition Members are rightly Gardiner, Barry Nandy, Lisa angry on behalf of their constituents. They are angry Gilmore, Sheila Nash, Pamela about the bedroom tax and about the fact that the Glass, Pat O’Donnell, Fiona Government have chosen today not to do something on Glindon, Mrs Mary Onwurah, Chi VAT that would have made a difference to people in our Godsiff, Mr Roger Osborne, Sandra communities who will also be angry that the Government Goggins, rh Paul Owen, Albert will not even accept a mild-mannered request, as I Goodman, Helen Paisley, Ian described it earlier, for a report on the impact of the Green, Kate Pearce, Teresa Griffith, Nia Perkins, Toby Government’s policies on basic rate taxpayers. For that Gwynne, Andrew Pound, Stephen reason, I intend to press the amendment to a vote. Hamilton, Mr David Powell, Lucy Question put, That the amendment be made. Hamilton, Fabian Qureshi, Yasmin Hanson, rh Mr David Raynsford, rh Mr Nick The Committee divided: Ayes 192, Noes 248. Harman, rh Ms Harriet Reed, Mr Jamie Division No. 217] [3.59 pm Harris, Mr Tom Reed, Mr Steve Hendrick, Mark Reynolds, Emma AYES Hillier, Meg Riordan, Mrs Linda Abrahams, Debbie Benton, Mr Joe Hilling, Julie Robertson, Angus Ali, Rushanara Berger, Luciana Hodge, rh Margaret Robertson, John Allen, Mr Graham Betts, Mr Clive Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Rotheram, Steve Ashworth, Jonathan Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hoey, Kate Roy, Mr Frank Austin, Ian Blears, rh Hazel Hopkins, Kelvin Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Bailey, Mr Adrian Blenkinsop, Tom Hosie, Stewart Sawford, Andy Bain, Mr William Blunkett, rh Mr David Howarth, rh Mr George Seabeck, Alison Bayley, Hugh Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Irranca-Davies, Huw Sharma, Mr Virendra 577 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 578

Sheridan, Jim Watson, Mr Tom Hollobone, Mr Philip Pugh, John Shuker, Gavin Watts, Mr Dave Howarth, Sir Gerald Raab, Mr Dominic Skinner, Mr Dennis Weir, Mr Mike Howell, John Randall, rh Mr John Slaughter, Mr Andy Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Hughes, rh Simon Reckless, Mark Smith, Angela Whitehead, Dr Alan Huppert, Dr Julian Redwood, rh Mr John Smith, Nick Williams, Hywel Hurd, Mr Nick Rees-Mogg, Jacob Smith, Owen Williamson, Chris Jackson, Mr Stewart Reevell, Simon Spellar, rh Mr John Wilson, Phil James, Margot Reid, Mr Alan Stuart, Ms Gisela Winnick, Mr David Javid, Sajid Robertson, rh Hugh Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Robertson, Mr Laurence Tami, Mark Wishart, Pete Johnson, Gareth Rogerson, Dan Thomas, Mr Gareth Woodcock, John Johnson, Joseph Rosindell, Andrew Thornberry, Emily Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Jones, Andrew Rudd, Amber Timms, rh Stephen Wright, David Jones, Mr Marcus Ruffley, Mr David Trickett, Jon Wright, Mr Iain Kawczynski, Daniel Russell, Sir Bob Twigg, Derek Tellers for the Ayes: Kelly, Chris Rutley, David Umunna, Mr Chuka Heidi Alexander and Kirby, Simon Sanders, Mr Adrian Vaz, Valerie Susan Elan Jones Knight, rh Mr Greg Sandys, Laura Kwarteng, Kwasi Scott, Mr Lee Laing, Mrs Eleanor Selous, Andrew NOES Lancaster, Mark Sharma, Alok Adams, Nigel Crouch, Tracey Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Simpson, Mr Keith Afriyie, Adam Davies, Glyn Latham, Pauline Skidmore, Chris Aldous, Peter de Bois, Nick Laws, rh Mr David Smith, Miss Chloe Andrew, Stuart Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Leadsom, Andrea Smith, Henry Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Doyle-Price, Jackie Lee, Jessica Smith, Julian Bacon, Mr Richard Duddridge, James Lee, Dr Phillip Smith, Sir Robert Baker, Steve Duncan, rh Mr Alan Leech, Mr John Soames, rh Nicholas Baldry, Sir Tony Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Leigh, Mr Edward Soubry, Anna Baldwin, Harriett Ellis, Michael Leslie, Charlotte Spencer, Mr Mark Barclay, Stephen Ellison, Jane Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Stanley, rh Sir John Barker, rh Gregory Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lewis, Brandon Stephenson, Andrew Baron, Mr John Elphicke, Charlie Lilley, rh Mr Peter Stewart, Bob Barwell, Gavin Eustice, George Lloyd, Stephen Stewart, Iain Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Lord, Jonathan Streeter, Mr Gary Bellingham, Mr Henry Evennett, Mr David Loughton, Tim Stride, Mel Beresford, Sir Paul Fabricant, Michael Lumley, Karen Stunell, rh Andrew Berry, Jake Featherstone, Lynne Main, Mrs Anne Sturdy, Julian Blackman, Bob Field, Mark Maude, rh Mr Francis Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Blackwood, Nicola Fox,rhDrLiam Maynard, Paul Swinson, Jo Blunt, Mr Crispin Francois, rh Mr Mark McIntosh, Miss Anne Syms, Mr Robert Bone, Mr Peter Freer, Mike Menzies, Mark Teather, Sarah Bradley, Karen Fuller, Richard Mercer, Patrick Thornton, Mike Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Sir Edward Metcalfe, Stephen Thurso, John Brake, rh Tom Garnier, Mark Miller, rh Maria Timpson, Mr Edward Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Mills, Nigel Tomlinson, Justin Truss, Elizabeth Brazier, Mr Julian Gibb, Mr Nick Milton, Anne Turner, Mr Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Mordaunt, Penny Brine, Steve Glen, John Tyrie, Mr Andrew Morris, Anne Marie Brokenshire, James Goodwill, Mr Robert Uppal, Paul Mosley, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Gove, rh Michael Vaizey, Mr Edward Mowat, David Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Graham, Richard Vara, Mr Shailesh Mulholland, Greg Buckland, Mr Robert Grant, Mrs Helen Vickers, Martin Burns, Conor Gray, Mr James Newton, Sarah Walker, Mr Charles Burns, rh Mr Simon Green, rh Damian Nokes, Caroline Walker, Mr Robin Burrowes, Mr David Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Norman, Jesse Wallace, Mr Ben Burstow, rh Paul Griffiths, Andrew Nuttall, Mr David Watkinson, Dame Angela Burt, Alistair Gummer, Ben Ollerenshaw, Eric Weatherley, Mike Burt, Lorely Halfon, Robert Ottaway, Richard Webb, Steve Byles, Dan Hancock, Matthew Paice, rh Sir James Wharton, James Cairns, Alun Hands, Greg Parish, Neil White, Chris Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harrington, Richard Patel, Priti Whittaker, Craig Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harris, Rebecca Paterson, rh Mr Owen Whittingdale, Mr John Carmichael, Neil Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Pawsey, Mark Wiggin, Bill Cash, Mr William Heald, Oliver Penning, Mike Willetts, rh Mr David Chishti, Rehman Heaton-Harris, Chris Penrose, John Williams, Mr Mark Chope, Mr Christopher Hemming, John Percy, Andrew Williams, Roger Clappison, Mr James Henderson, Gordon Perry, Claire Williams, Stephen Clark, rh Greg Herbert, rh Nick Phillips, Stephen Williamson, Gavin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian Pincher, Christopher Wilson, Mr Rob Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Wollaston, Dr Sarah Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Pritchard, Mark Wright, Simon 579 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 580

Yeo, Mr Tim Tellers for the Noes: (8) Any rate set must not exceed the rate which would apply if Young, rh Sir George Nicky Morgan and this section were not in force. Zahawi, Nadhim Mark Hunter (9) Subsections (5) to (7) and (10) to (12) of section 30 apply for the purposes of this section as they apply for the purposes of Question accordingly negatived. that section. (10) “The relevant day” means the day appointed as such by an 4.10 pm order. More than four and a half hours having elapsed since (11) Section 42(4) and (5) does not apply to any order under subsection (10). the commencement of proceedings, the proceedings were interrupted (Programme Order, 15 April). (12) An Act of the Scottish Parliament means an Act passed under section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998.”.’.—(Mr MacNeil.) The Chair put forthwith the Question necessary for the Brought up, and read the First time. disposal of business at that time (Standing Order No. 83D). Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second New Clause 3 time. The Temporary Chairman (Sir Roger Gale): With this LONG HAUL RATES OF DUTY (SCOTLAND) it will be convenient to discuss the following: ‘After section 30A of the Finance act 1994 there shall be inserted— New clause 4—Air passenger duty: Wales “30B Scotland long haul rates of duty ‘Schedule (Air Passenger Duty: Wales) has effect’. (1) This section applies to the carriage of a chargeable New schedule 1—‘AirPassenger Duty: Wales passenger if— (a) the carriage begins on or after the relevant day, ‘A IR PASSENGER DUTY:WALES (b) the only flight, or the first flight, of the passenger’s journey begins at an airport or aerodrome in Scotland, PART 1 (c) the passenger’s journey does not end at an airport or aerodrome in the United Kingdom or a territory RATES OF DUTY FROM 1APRIL 2013 specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A, and 1 Section 30 of FA 1994 (air passenger duty: rates of duty) is (d) if the passenger’s journey has more than one flight, the amended as follows. first flight is not followed by a connected flight beginning at an airport or aerodrome in the United Kingdom or After subsection 4D insert— a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5a. “(4DA) Subsection (4DA) applies if— (2) Air passenger duty is chargeable on the carriage of the (a) the passenger’s journey is a relevant Wales journey, and chargeable passenger at the rate determined as follows. (b) apart from subsection (4C), subsection (2) would not (3) If the passenger’s journey ends at an airport or aerodrome apply to the journey. in a territory specified in Part 2 of Schedule 5A— (4DB) The applicable rate in subsection (2) applies to the (a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for journey instead of the applicable rate in subsection (3), (4) or standard class travel in relation to every flight on the (4A) (as the case may be). passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act (4DC) A passenger’s journey is a “relevant Wales journey”— of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this (a) in the case of a journey which has only one flight, if paragraph, and the flight begins in Wales, and (b) in any other case the rate if the rate set by an Act of (b) in any other case, if the first flight of the journey— the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this (i) begins in Wales, and paragraph. (ii) is not followed by a connected flight beginning at a (4) If the passenger’s journey ends at an airport or aerodrome place in the United Kingdom or a territory in a territory specified in Part 3 of Schedule 5A— specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A.” (a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for The amendments made by this Part of this Schedule have standard class travel in relation to every flight on the effect in relation to the carriage of passengers passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act beginning on or after 1 April 2013. of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this paragraph, and PART 2 (b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this paragraph. DEVOLUTION OF WALES LONG HAUL RATES OF DUTY 2 Chapter 4 of Part 1 of FA 1994 (air passenger duty) is amended (5) If the passenger’s journey ends at any other airport or as follows. aerodrome— (a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for 3 (1) Section 30 (rates of duty) is amended as follows. standard class travel in relation to every flight on the (2) After subsection (1) insert— passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act “(1B) Subsection (1) does not apply to the carriage of a of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this chargeable passenger to which section 30B below (Wales long paragraph, and haul rates of duty) applies.” (b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of (3) Omit subsections (4DA) to (4DC) (as inserted by paragraph 1 the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this above). paragraph. (4) The amendments made by this paragraph have effect in (6) The rate of £0 may be set for the purposes of any paragraph. relation to the carriage of passengers beginning on or after the (7) The same rate may be set for the purposes of two or more relevant day as defined in section 30B of FA 1994 (as inserted by paragraphs. paragraph 4 below). 581 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 582

4 After section 30A insert— 5 (1) Section 33 (registration of aircraft operators) is amended 30B Wales long haul rates of duty as follows. “(1) This section applies to the carriage of a chargeable (2) After subsection (2A) insert— passenger if— “(2B) If the Commissioners decide to keep a register under (a) the carriage begins on or after the relevant day, section 33B below, an operator of a chargeable aircraft does not become liable to be registered under this section just because the (b) the only flight, or the first flight, of the passenger’s aircraft is used for the carriage of chargeable passengers to which journey begins at a place in Wales, section 30B above applies.” (c) the passenger’s journey does not end at a place in the (3) In subsection (3)(b) after “applies” insert “or, if the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Commissioners have decided to keep a register under section 33B Schedule 5A, and below, that no chargeable aircraft which he operates will be used (d) if the passenger’s journey has more than one flight, the for the carriage of chargeable passengers apart from the carriage first flight is not followed by a connected flight of chargeable passengers to which section 30B above applies. beginning at a place in the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A. (4) In subsection (7) after “section 33A” insert “or section 33B below. (2) Air passenger duty is chargeable on the carriage of the chargeable passenger at the rate determined as follows. 6 After section 33A insert— (3) If the passenger’s journey ends at a place in a territory 33B (1) The Commissioners may under this section keep a specified in Part 2 of Schedule 5A— register of aircraft operators. (a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for (2) If the Commissioners decide to keep a register under this standard class travel in relation to every flight on the section, the operator of a chargeable aircraft becomes liable to be passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act registered under this section if the aircraft is used for the carriage of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of chargeable passengers to which section 30B above applies. of this paragraph, and (3) A person who has become liable to be registered under this (b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of section ceases to be so liable if the Commissioners are satisfied at the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of any time— this paragraph. (a) the he no longer operates any chargeable aircraft, or (4) If the passenger’s journey ends at a place in a territory (b) that no chargeable aircraft which he operates will be specified in Part 3 of Schedule 5A— used for the carriage of chargeable passengers to which section 30B above applies. (a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the (4) A person who is not registered under this section and has passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act not given notice under this subsection shall, if he becomes liable of the National Assembly for Wales with the purposes to be registered under this section at any time, give written notice of this paragraph, and of that fact to the Commissioners not later than the end of the (b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of prescribed period beginning with that time. the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of (5) Notice under subsection (4) above shall be in such form, be this paragraph. given in such manner and contain such information as the Commissioners may direct.” (5) If the passenger’s journey ends at any other place— (a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for 7 In section 34 (fiscal representatives) in subsection (5)— standard class travel in relation to every flight on the (a) in paragraph (a) after “33A” insert “or 33B”. passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act 8 After section 41B insert— of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes 41C (1) An officer of Revenue and Customs may disclose to of this paragraph, and the Secretary of State, the Treasury or the Department of (b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of Finance in Wales any information for purposes connected with the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of the setting of rates of duty under section 30B above, including (in this paragraph. particular) to enable the setting of rates under that section to be (6) The rate of £0 may be set for the purposes of any paragraph. taken into account (payments by Secretary of State into Consolidated Fund of Wales). (7) The same rate may be set for the purposes of two or more paragraphs. (2) Information disclosed under subsection (1) above may not be further disclosed without the consent of the Commissioners (8) Subsections (5) to (7) and (10) to (12) of section 30 apply (which may be general or specific). for the purposes of this section as they apply for the purposes of that section. (3) In section 19 of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 (wrongful disclosure) references to section 18(1) (9) “The relevant day” means the day appointed as such by an of that Act are to be read as including a reference to subsection (2) order. above.” (10) Section 42(4) and (5) does not apply to an order under 9 In section 44 of CRCA 2005 (payment into Consolidated subsection (9). Fund) after subsection (2)(cb) insert— (11) A Bill containing provision authorised by this section (cc) sums required by section 30A(15) of the may not be passed by the National Wales Assembly except in Finance Act 1994 (air passenger duty: Wales pursuance of a recommendation which— long haul rates of duty) to be paid into the (a) is made by the Minister of Finance, and Consolidated Fund of Wales,”. (b) is signified to the Assembly by the Minister or on the 10 In column 2 of the Table in paragraph 1 of Schedule 41 to FA Minister’s behalf. 2008 (penalties for failure to notify), in the entry relating to air (12) “Passed”, in relation to a Bill, means passed at the final passenger duty, after “33A(4) “insert “or 33B(4)”. stage (at which the Bill can be passed or rejected but not 11 The amendments made by this Part of the Schedule have amended). effect in relation to the carriage of passengers beginning on or (13) Duty paid to the Commissioners in respect of the carriage after 1 April 2013. of chargeable passengers to which this section applies must be 12 The rate of duty in force under this Schedule shall not be paid by the Commissioners into the Consolidated Fund of greater than the rate which would be in force if the Schedule had Wales.” not been enacted.’. 583 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 584

Clause 183 stand part. 4.15 pm Clause 184 stand part. Mr MacNeil: My hon. Friend is right—[Interruption.] Yes, there is, of course, a Scottish Labour Member on Mr MacNeil: I shall speak to new clause 3 and the Front Bench, but the hon. Member for Kilmarnock against clause 183 stand part. and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) is present because of Air passenger duty is fast becoming one of the most duty, rather than will, which is why the hon. Member damaging interventions by the Westminster Government for Central Ayrshire is here. in the Scottish economy, which over the past 30 years has provided more tax per person per year than across Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD) rose— the United Kingdom as a whole. The chairman of VisitScotland, Mike Cantlay, says he is “extremely fearful” Mr MacNeil: If the hon. Gentleman will be patient, of the long-term impact of air passenger duty levies on I will make some progress before giving way to him. the long haul market to Scotland, which have left the country at a competitive disadvantage compared with Mr Reid rose— countries such as Ireland. He added: “To say to a potential visitor to Scotland from Australia, for Mr MacNeil: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be example, that before you even book you will be paying hundreds patient. He is usually a patient man, and I am sure he of pounds extra for the sake of coming here, because the UK has can display some patience now. a deficit to fund, is not an easy sell. It is lunacy for our industry.” The chief executive of the UK Airport Operators Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): How Association, Darren Caplan, recently said: many journeys would be affected by the new clause? “Our eye-wateringly high levels of APD already mean we pay the highest passenger tax on flying in the world—and this is not disputed by anyone in Government.” Mr MacNeil: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows the answer to that question better than I do. It The truth is that APD rates are having a devastating will affect thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of effect on the UK, and especially on Scotland. Let me journeys. It is estimated that the present arrangements pass on the views of some key people in Scotland. Jim have cost Scotland about 2.1 million visitors since the O’Sullivan, managing director of Edinburgh airport, introduction of air passenger duty a few years ago, and said on the BBC news on 6 December 2011: the effect of that on the Scottish economy is mammoth. “APD is already costing Scotland passengers and having an impact on tourism revenues. We know from discussions with our airline partners that it is a major factor in their decision to Mr Donohoe: May I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention connect further routes to Scotland. We would urge the Westminster to the wording of new clause 3? Does it not in fact cover Government to see Scotland as it does Northern Ireland and only long-haul flights? It does not cover connecting understand the need to both reduce and devolve this unfair and flights through Heathrow or any other airports. How damaging tax.” many actual journeys will it therefore cover? I understand Amanda McMillan, managing director of Glasgow that there are only two such long-haul journeys per airport, said: week to Northern Ireland, for example. “On the question of devolution of APD, Glasgow Airport has always been supportive of this proposal given the Scottish Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman will understand Government’s more progressive approach to aviation and its that this covers all aspects of journeys feeding into greater appreciation of the role the industry plays in supporting Scotland, and he will know full well that air passenger the growth of the Scottish economy.” duty is adversely affecting the Scottish economy. Does Scottish Government Transport Minister, Keith Brown, he take a contrary view? said: “We need to be able to deal with the competitive and connectivity Mr Donohoe: As the chairman of the all-party disadvantages that Scotland faces and if APD were devolved now parliamentary aviation group, may I remind the hon. we could provide the means to incentivise airlines to provide new direct international connections to Scotland, benefiting our aviation Gentleman that we have reported on this matter? The industry and our passengers and supporting the growth of the duty has a great effect on everyone in the United Scottish economy. The UK Government needs to listen to the Kingdom, not just those in Scotland. many voices in Scotland who clearly want to see full devolution of the policy on APD.” Mr MacNeil: I do not dispute that it has a great effect on everyone in the United Kingdom, but Scotland is Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): Is it not true that currently in the United Kingdom and it therefore affects APD was devolved to Northern Ireland because of the Scotland. I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman’s flights that would have left Belfast airport and gone speech. I am sure that the points he raises will be very instead to Dublin? The specific APD problem for Northern welcome. Ireland is that there is an international border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): My hon. Friend referred to numbers, and I am sure that Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is making my he, like me, will have noted that the hon. Member for case. Airports are joined by air, not by land or sea. I am Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) is the only Scottish sure Prestwick is about as far from Belfast airport as Labour Member who has bothered to turn up for this Dublin and Shannon are, so if this is good enough for debate, such is their concern about the issue we are Belfast and Northern Ireland, it is good enough for addressing. Scottish airports. 585 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 586

Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman forgets one point: at the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid). We Northern Ireland is attached by land to the Irish Republic look forward—if that is the right expression—to hearing and Scotland is attached by land to England but is not the latest excuse from the Government. attached by land to Ireland. The difference here is that people were driving from Belfast to Dublin to catch Pete Wishart: My hon. Friend is correct that the connecting flights, whereas, obviously, people cannot Calman commission recommended the devolution of drive from Glasgow to Dublin to catch connecting APD, but so does the jam-tomorrow Labour commission. flights. At its conference in Inverness this weekend, Scottish Labour will be discussing the devolution of APD. I Mr MacNeil: That is a very strange argument for a would be interested to hear whether the two Scottish Member who, like me, represents islands to advance. It Labour Members present will boycott that conference. also could be argued that a passenger travelling from Stranraer would have a far shorter journey to Northern Mr MacNeil: I am sure that the hon. Member for Ireland than a person travelling overland from Cork to Central Ayrshire will be on his feet presently to confirm Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman may not be his attendance in Inverness. aware that aircraft travel through the air, not overland or across the sea. Mr Donohoe: That has nothing to do with this debate. The hon. Gentleman should know that his proposal, Mr Reid: On the question of islands, the hon. Gentleman which is what we are discussing, does not constitute the knows the following information as well as I do, but it is devolution of APD. What he is talking about is the important that the Committee be given it: flights from equivalent of what happens in Northern Ireland, which the islands in our constituencies are exempt from APD. affects one flight a day. What I and the all-party aviation group are suggesting is that APD be taken away completely. Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is right about that If he proposed that, I would support him. Is the SNP to an extent. For some flights, however, APD is paid on likely to consider that? one of the legs going into the islands, so he is not entirely correct, and the flights that are exempt are Mr MacNeil: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has those capable of carrying under 20 passengers with a investigated the level of APD on flights from London take-off load of less than 10 tonnes. The hon. Gentleman airports to Inverness. Doubtless, he will be flying to the should know the details of what he is talking about. happy band that is the Labour conference this weekend. [Interruption.] As my hon. Friend the Member for May I ask the UK Government a simple question? Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) says, he will Why are they not devolving APD to Scotland? Is it no doubt do so with enthusiasm. because the UK Government do not want to see Scotland doing better? Is it because the UK Government care Not only does APD receive a lot of criticism in only about collecting revenues from Scotland? Or is it Scotland and the UK; it has attracted international that they think that once one tax goes, all taxes will derision. Two days ago, at a conference in Trinidad and go—and that the often peddled myth that Scotland Tobago, it was not only criticised by Caribbean countries receives extra money from the indebted UK will be seen as discriminating against the region, but was described for the lie it is? Is there a fear of APD today, oil revenue as tomorrow, so the mantra is that it is better to keep taxes “a clear market distortion and barrier” together at Westminster? to tourism worldwide by a senior UN tourism official, The Government refuse to listen to sensible voices in Carlos Vogeler, the UN World Tourism Organisation’s Scotland. Robert Kerr, the chairman of French Duncan regional director for the Americas. He added that APD and the Scottish accountant of the year, said: “can actually produce a net damage to the economy, particularly “More helpful would be a reduction in the rate of air passenger in those destinations which are so dependent on air travel, such as duty (instead, the Chancellor announced in his Budget that it the Caribbean”. would increase at the highest level of inflation for two years)”. Surely, on a social union basis, we should treat other He continued: Commonwealth countries, such as the beautiful Bahamas, on a fairer basis. At £332 for a family of four flying “Scotland is preparing to welcome the world in 2014, when it hosts the second Year of Homecoming, the Commonwealth economy, its air tax is higher than the £268 in tax when Games and the Ryder Cup. If we are to maximise the economic flying to Hawaii. opportunities such events present, then we need more help from I will give four reasons why APD should be devolved our governments rather than hindrance.” to Scotland. First, APD is making Scottish airports I would add that when the referendum is won, Scotland uncompetitive in their efforts to attract new direct will be in the world’s focus and many more people will international routes. It is needlessly restricting Scotland’s want to travel to it. We do not want them to be penalised ability to realise the economic and business benefits that by the outgoing UK Government in Scotland. direct air connections bring. APD should clearly be devolved. The UK Government Secondly, APD is designed for the circumstances in have had enough time to think about the matter. Even the south-east of England, not the rest of the UK. It is, the Calman commission, which was set up by the Tory- at best, a demand-management tool for Heathrow—a Labour tag team and their Liberal friends, recommended stretched airport that will have no further runways until the devolution of APD. The UK Government’s response one is built in a panic in a few years’ time, as Ryanair’s was to refuse to devolve it on the grounds that they were Michael O’Leary predicts. Heathrow needs demand to exploring whether to replace it with a per-plane tax. be limited because it is at capacity and the Chancellor That decision has been made and the per-plane tax has therefore has a coincidental fiscal cash cow. Scottish been rejected, so what is the excuse now? I say that looking airports have the capacity for growth and this tax 587 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 588

[Mr MacNeil] Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman should look to opportunities rather than scaring and fear-mongering. I blocks it. Independent control over APD through devolved imagine the opportunity that cheaper flights might afford powers would give Scotland the ability to meet its own his constituents would be welcomed, but he can answer needs rather than Heathrow’s. My view of demand to them on that. While Scottish GDP grew by 0.5%, management is supported by the chief executive of the that of the UK fell by 0.3% in the last quarter of 2012. Scottish Chambers of Commerce, Liz Cameron, who said: Debt levels in Scotland are lower than in the UK as a “Current rates of APD seem more suited to controlling capacity whole, and just yesterday new figures revealed the largest constraints at Heathrow than they do with the needs of regional rise in employment for 12 years, with unemployment airports, and devolution of this tax would afford the Scottish below 200,000 for the first time since 2009. Unemployment Government the opportunity to create an air transport package in Scotland is 7.3% versus 7.9% in the UK. for Scotland designed to improve our direct international connectivity.” Recent figures also show a new record that is very Thirdly, a Scottish aviation tax regime would incentivise different from the UK Government’s record on APD. the introduction of new direct international services, Ours is a record of the participation of young people in which is important for business connectivity and in-bound higher education—a rate that is considerably higher tourism. We could do that by reducing the rate of duty, than in England thanks to a policy based on the ability or indeed exempting it, in the early years of a new to learn rather than the ability to pay. There is a service—the most challenging financial period—until a different philosophy in Scotland. However, we do not route is established. measure ourselves against the rest of the UK; after Fourthly, the Treasury said that it is devolving “aspects” independence we look to have a society and economy of APD in Northern Ireland, making great play of the that in many aspects matches Norway, Switzerland, “unique”commercial challenges it faces—that was perhaps Iceland and Denmark, among many others. We know mentioned earlier by the hon. Member for Argyll and that we can do even better, but we must listen and do Bute. Scotland’s aviation sector also has specific and what industry is telling us. The message is clear: APD is long-running competitive disadvantages that need to be too high and must be devolved so that the Scottish addressed, and only the devolution of APD will do Government can deliver a better connected Scotland. that. It is unacceptable that the UK Government are The UK Government have been ignoring industry, still not prepared to commit to the devolution of APD the people and the Scottish Government for far too to Scotland, and I warn that such intransigence angers long. That is why support for independence will grow, people at first, but when they calm and look rationally as more come to understand the continuing damage at the situation, they see the need for independence, that Westminster does, whether by omission or commission. which will be voted for a year next autumn. What is at the root of all the wrong-headedness? The According to a report published in October 2012 by fact is that the UK Government are caught in a trap York Aviation, with their devotion to the cult of austerity. That is seen “by 2016 Scotland’s airports will be handling around 2.1 million in the bedroom tax, which will make matters worse passengers per annum fewer than they might have been if the pulling by pulling £1.6 billion from the Scottish economy, APD changes since 2007 had not been implemented.” according to an article that I read, I think, in the It concludes: Financial Times. “Constraining the growth of Scotland’s airports via APD can The focus is wrongly on austerity; the focus should be ultimately only have a negative impact from this perspective. APD on growth and, as I have laid out, this tax is the enemy makes it harder for airports to attract new routes or improved levels of service. Over time this will impact on Scotland’s attractiveness of growth. What matters is not debt itself, but debt to as a place to invest and its competitiveness in international GDP ratio. There is then the issue of servicing that markets. This in turn will negatively impact on Scotland’s international debt—the interest obligation, as Professor Robert Pollin economy, including key sectors such as banking and finance, oil said this morning on the “Today” programme when and gas, creative industries, technology businesses and advanced challenging the underpinning philosophy of austerity. manufacturing”. With interest rates low, not only is the Government’s By establishing the highest passenger tax on flying in focus wrong, their understanding is wrong, and with the the world, the UK Government have finally managed cost of borrowing low, the underpinning arithmetic is to become the best in the world at something: unfair wrong. This tax is part of the wrong philosophy that the taxation. They are blocking growth with a gatekeeper Government are following at Westminster and to which tax. Labour bind us with the Better Together campaign. The SNP Government are building a better Scotland. I understand that the Labour party leader in Scotland, Scottish GDP grew by 0.5% during the fourth quarter Johann Lamont, who is the boss of all Labour MPs in of 2012—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Sedgefield the Chamber, including the hon. Member for Central (Phil Wilson) from north-east England might laugh, Ayrshire, is presenting a paper to the Labour conference but I am sure a successful Scotland on his border would in Inverness that, it is reported, includes the devolution benefit north-east England as well. Would he rather of APD so that it is independently controlled in Scotland. have an independent successful Norway on his border My goodness! Labour is coming round to the independence or a Scotland that at the moment is in hock to whatever agenda. Scottish National party Members are delighted decisions are made by the Tories at Westminster? “Better with those steps. Surely Labour Members will come Together with the Tories” is the Labour mantra. through the Lobby with SNP Members this evening rather than deliver a slap in the face to their leader by Phil Wilson: If air passenger duty is devolved to not attending the conference en masse, or by sitting on Scotland that will impact on the airports at Newcastle their hands today, now that they have lately left what and Durham Tees Valley. To go further and say that has been known as the Bain principle, whereby Labour independence will help north-east England is ridiculous. Members refuse to support anything the SNP does 589 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 590 simply because it is done by the SNP. They could come about £50—there would also be a car park charge—but through the Lobby with us this evening and display not the APD for that international flight from Northern only sound thinking, but their loyalty to, and support Ireland was £150. The duty in the Republic of Ireland for, their leader and boss, Johann Lamont. was ¤3. The difference would have ruined that business. I extend the hand of welcome to the hon. Member for It was essential on those terms that we got rid of APD Central Ayrshire. I am sure Labour will not want to give for that international flight. My position is that I want anybody in the Committee the impression that Labour the duty removed for the whole UK. That is what the in Scotland is not a happy band. debate is about. The measure is about internal flights in the UK, including, of course, our glorious and noble Scotland. 4.30 pm I am concerned that there is an element, or even a Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): huge big bit, of fudge, which we should avoid. The What about a Miliband? policy, which should be set out loud and clear, should be the scrapping of APD for all of the UK. Mr MacNeil: Mr Miliband will not be there long—do not worry about him. Jonathan Edwards: It is with pleasure that I introduce Surely the SNP and Plaid Cymru will not be the only my new clause 4 and new schedule 1; I hope to press the champions of economic growth and the travelling public, new clause to the vote at the appropriate time. and particularly the less wealthy travelling public of The UK Government’s Commission on Devolution Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England. The in Wales, headed by Sir Paul Silk, published the first phase travelling public seem to have no champions other than of its report in November 2012. This phase concentrated the SNP and Plaid Cymru for their businesses and solely on fiscal powers. Here we are, five months later, holidays. I encourage other hon. Members to support still waiting for the UK Government response, which the cut of the poll tax on our skies: businesses want it, was originally said to be due this spring. In a matter of hard-working families want it, and economic growth a few weeks, the cricket season will be upon us and it needs it. will be summer, yet we are none the wiser about the intentions of the UK Government. Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): When I arrived In short, the Silk commission recommended that in the Chamber and listened to the speech of the hon. powers over stamp duty land tax, the aggregates levy, Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), I had air passenger duty for long haul, landfill tax and business to check that the debate was on the Bill and not on rates be devolved in their entirety and as soon as possible. Scottish independence. It also advocated a sharing arrangement for income I am opposed to airport duty tax. It is a regressive tax tax. In addition, it argued—importantly—that should and it is wrong. It is a tax on business and tourism, and corporation tax be devolved to Northern Ireland, Wales on our skies and travel. It is wrong not just for little should not be left behind. I reiterate the point that I Northern Ireland and little Scotland; it is wrong for made on the closing day of the Budget debate—that we every citizen of the UK. I am certainly not taking the are very interested to see the strong lobby, led by the position that we should scrap it in parts of the UK. It CBI, coming from Northern Ireland. In total, the fiscal should be scrapped for all of the UK—the UK Government powers advocated by Silk for immediate devolution—the need to get that message loud and clear. minor taxes—together account for about £1.2 billion of the Welsh Government’s budget. Mr MacNeil: Given what the hon. Gentleman says, I assume he will support SNP Members in the Lobby Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Does my hon. Friend when we try to strike down clause 183. find it strange, as I do, that no one representing the Labour party in Wales is present to back the policy of Ian Paisley: I will come to that in a wee minute. The the Labour Government down in Cardiff? hon. Gentleman will have to bide his time and be patient, or, as we would say, houl yer whisht. Perhaps he Jonathan Edwards: I am extremely grateful for my knows what I mean by that. hon. Friend’s intervention, as we had a debate in the It is important to put on the record that Northern Welsh Grand Committee on this issue, and Labour Ireland has an international connection and an international speaker after Labour speaker lined up to say that they carrier from Aldergrove airport to Newark airport, not only were in favour of the Silk recommendations on which is just outside New York. It flies every day in minor taxes, but wanted them devolved immediately. peak season—one flight a day in, one flight a day out. They went even further, saying that the Finance Bill was We have no other international carrier. However, the the appropriate vehicle for achieving that. same carrier operates from Dublin, which is 90 miles down the road, to Newark. In the last number of years, Mr MacNeil: I have a certain understanding of the the business in Northern Ireland was put under threat word “immediately”, and I am sure that my hon. Friend for one reason only: the airport authority and the carrier does, too. Does he think that that understanding of the had to subsidise one another to the tune of £1.5 million. word is shared by Labour in Wales? Had they not done so, the business would not exist, and people would be forced to travel 90 miles down the road Jonathan Edwards: That is the exact point. This was and pay a lesser tax. said to be the appropriate legislative vehicle for devolving The price difference was staggering—it meant that it airport duty to Northern Ireland, and if it is good was possible to travel 90 miles down the road. Filling a enough for Northern Ireland, it is certainly good enough car with petrol or diesel and driving to Dublin costs for Scotland and Wales. 591 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 592

[Jonathan Edwards] some way towards filling the gap, enabling the Welsh Government to invest in infrastructure projects and Needless to say, the proposed powers fell far short of generate economic momentum. what Plaid Cymru was advocating as a party. We wanted a more comprehensive list of job-creating and economy- Hywel Williams: I thank my hon. Friend for giving boosting powers, including VAT, corporation tax, resource way again; he is being very generous. Does he agree that taxes and capital gains tax. In the interest of compromise, the term “minor taxes” is a misnomer, given that those however, and not second-guessing Silk, we are happy to taxes constitute a key that could unlock substantial proceed as the commission recommended—not least moneys which the Welsh Government could invest in because the fiscal powers recommended by Paul Silk dealing with our economic difficulties? and his team in the commission’s report are desperately needed for the sake of the Welsh economy. The minor tax powers, the income tax sharing arrangement and Jonathan Edwards: That is exactly the point. We have the borrowing powers that would be triggered as a experienced twin processes in Wales. We have had the result would enable us in Wales better to deliver job-creating Silk commission, but there has also been a bilateral and economy-boosting measures and policies to help negotiation between the United Kingdom and Welsh turn around the continuing dire state of the economy. Governments. The consequence of that negotiation was that the Welsh Government would be given borrowing Yesterday’s unemployment figures showed a small powers if it had an independent fiscal stream. That is drop in unemployment in Wales, but the number of why my new clause is so vital for the Welsh economy. economically inactive people went up by 7,000. The rate is still 0.4% higher than in the UK, and there are still In January, the Welsh Grand Committee debated the nearly 50,000 more people unemployed in Wales than commission’s part II recommendations. Although there there were before the recession began, and another was a difference of views over the proposals for income 50,000 more people who are under-employed. That is tax-sharing arrangements, it was broadly accepted on on top of the extra 50,000 public sector jobs we expect all sides that the minor taxes recommendations should to be lost in the coming years on top of the 24,000 that be implemented as soon as possible. I must confess that have already been lost. during that debate I became slightly confused. Unionist politicians were in favour of full devolution of some Last week’s research by Sheffield Hallam university taxes, but opposed to a sharing arrangement between and the Financial Times, to which my hon. Friend the the UK and Welsh Governments in relation to income Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) referred, tax. My natural conclusion following the debate was highlighted that more than £1 billion is due to be taken that as there was a consensus at least in relation to the out of the Welsh economy over the next year by cuts to minor taxes, we ought to get on with devolving them social security. This will have a devastating human cost, swiftly rather than waiting for what could be years for a which is becoming all too clear. new Government of Wales Act. The private sector is already on its knees in Wales due to the depression caused by the disastrous economic The most prominent of the minor taxes is covered by policies pursued by both Labour and Conservative the air passenger duty recommendation. It is difficult Westminster Governments, which have destroyed the for us to table amendments relating to the other minor productive economies within the British state. It will taxes at this stage because consideration in Committee deteriorate further as money is sucked out of local is in the hands of the usual channels, from which my economies through further austerity. We are yet to see party is excluded, but we are at least able to consider any realistic plan of how jobs and growth will come the devolution of air passenger duty. I suggest that that about in these depressed areas or any effort to should serve as a spur for the implementation of the counterbalance the austerity cuts, despite the high rhetoric other minor tax powers recommended by the commission. of geographical rebalancing. There are three important reasons why the Welsh Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Does the hon. Government should be empowered with fiscal powers Gentleman acknowledge that the Silk commission said as advocated by the Silk commission and as proposed in that his package should be viewed as such—as a package? my new clause. First, it would make the Welsh Government I share the hon. Gentleman’s impatience as we wait more accountable. Secondly, it would incentivise the for the Government to respond to part I of the Silk Welsh Government to concentrate on developing the recommendations, but we should nevertheless see them economy to raise the necessary revenue to invest in public in that light. services. Lastly, an independent fiscal stream would enable the Welsh Government to access the borrowing Jonathan Edwards: I think that the question for the powers they have agreed with the UK Government. hon. Gentleman is this: if he favours the devolution of Labour’s proposals for substantial cuts in Welsh capital fiscal powers to Wales, should he not walk through the spending in the last Budget that it presented before Lobby with us rather than waiting for another Government losing office were supported in the Conservative-Liberal of Wales Bill? When will that Bill come before the Democrat comprehensive spending review in October House? When will the legislative gap arise? If he is 2010, which cut the Welsh capital budget by 42%. promising me that the Bill will be in the Queen’s Speech, Announcements in subsequent UK Budgets or autumn we may consider whether or not to press new clause 3 to statements have meant that the final cut is about 39%. a vote. Although that is admittedly a smaller reduction than If the Committee supports the new clause, I shall the one planned by Labour, it represents a huge hit for expect the Treasury to include the other minor taxes economic activity in Wales. The devolution of minor and business rates as the Bill proceeds, and to implement taxes and the triggering of borrowing powers would go fully this aspect of the Silk recommendations. 593 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 594

Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): My It is clear that the Bill is the appropriate legislative hon. Friend is making a powerful case. Is it not strange vehicle to move this issue forward. There is a clear that no Welsh Labour Members are present to debate precedent and, as I said, I believe the Treasury should air passenger duty, given that the Labour First Minister accept the amendment, as it includes all the minor taxes of Wales has spent many millions of pounds of Welsh recommended by Silk. money on buying an airport in Cardiff? The Labour Welsh Government have recently acquired Jonathan Edwards: My right hon. Friend makes an Cardiff airport, and the ability to attract long-haul excellent point, to which I shall return. Fifty million flights to Cardiff would significantly improve the airport’s pounds of Welsh taxpayers’ money has been spent on competitiveness. Cardiff airport has 1.5 million people buying an airport, and no Labour Member from Wales in its catchment area and long-haul flights could attract is present this evening to vote for a proposal that would people from even further afield. The development of enable the Welsh Government to make the most of that Cardiff airport could act as a spur to growth in the asset. It is a disgrace, and I hope that the Welsh media south Wales economy, bringing in greater foreign direct are listening to the debate and will report on it fully. investment through better business links, in turn bringing jobs and growth. Mr MacNeil: Is the hon. Gentleman actually informing Quite frankly, I am amazed that the Labour party has the House that Labour at Westminster does not want not tabled its own amendment. That goes to show that to give powers to Labour in Wales because it wants to the First Minister has absolutely no influence over his leave those powers with the Tories in Westminster? Is bosses down here. On Tuesday of this week, he stood in that the situation with which we are dealing? Does the National Assembly telling the Members and the Labour prefer to put power in the hands of the Tories people of Wales that rather than in the hands of Labour? Does Labour trust “the most important thing is to ensure that Silk part 1 is progressed”. the Tories more than Labour trusts Labour? This is bizarre. I would expect Labour MPs to file through the Aye Jonathan Edwards: I believe that that is indeed the Lobby when we vote, or his authority will be fatally case. undermined—but as the Labour Whips have sent them Admittedly the revenue gathered from the minor home, that will not be the case. taxes, although not insignificant, is relatively small in The fact that the Treasury has not used the Finance comparison with the revenue that would be available Bill to implement Silk also shows once again that Wales through the income tax-sharing arrangement recommended is an afterthought in the machinations of the British by the Silk commission. That would make the Welsh state. Those powers should be devolved, yet there is Government responsible for 10p in every pound of delay even though it is apparent that there is broad income tax raised in Wales. It would enable the Welsh consensus among the main parties who represent Welsh Government to increase their borrowing capacity constituencies, as evidenced in the Grand Committee substantially, and would strengthen the accountability debate and despite the fact that the commission received test. My intention is to return to that at a later stage of representations from all parties. Each month that passes the Bill’s progress. It would also undoubtedly incentivise by without these powers being devolved, the Welsh the Welsh Government to grow the economy in Wales economy further deteriorates with job and economic and provide responsibility for its expenditure. It is also prospects diminished, hopes and dreams shattered and clear that fair funding and the proper resolution of the lives ruined. blatant inadequacies of the Barnett formula, whereby we estimate that Wales loses out on an average of £500 million Over Easter, I attended a major forum meeting organised a year, are desperately needed, but that resolution must by Carmarthenshire county council to move the proposed not be used to block the partial devolution of income Llandeilo bypass project forward. Despite being high tax or the minor taxes. up the Welsh Government’s priority list as a transport infrastructure project, it is being held up as a result of 4.45 pm the savage cuts to capital budgets in Wales. If the amendment is successful, it will enable the Welsh Non-domestic rates, or business rates, are another Government to access borrowing powers to move the minor tax that it would have been ideal to devolve to scheme and many others like it forward. In Carmarthenshire Wales in this Finance Bill, thereby incentivising local there is cross-party support for the project, and I would authorities in Wales to expand their economic bases. like to close by kindly informing my political opponents Long-haul air passenger duty was devolved to Northern that should they fail to support the amendment their Ireland in last year’s Finance Bill and the Silk commission grandstanding in supporting projects such as the Llandeilo has recommended the devolution of long-haul APD to bypass will be exposed and there will be a heavy political Wales. price to pay in my constituency—a constituency I believe Ian Paisley: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is the Labour party view as a target seat come the next clarifying the matter. The power has been devolved but Westminster election. it has not yet been implemented and, like him, I would urge our Executive to implement it. It will help business Pete Wishart: No chance, not with you there. and the whole of the United Kingdom could benefit, including Wales, Scotland and England, if they get on Jonathan Edwards: Well, I am grateful for that comment. with it. Plaid Cymru has made jobs and the economy its Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman makes a absolute priority.That is why we have tabled this amendment powerful point. That is especially the case in Wales, as on air passenger duty. We want to create a modern and the Welsh Government own our national airport. prosperous Wales, and unlike our political opponents 595 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 596

[Jonathan Edwards] the lower taxation. That situation clearly does not apply in the case of Scotland and Wales. People would not we have little faith in London Governments of whatever save money by travelling from Scotland to the Irish colour achieving that ambition. That is why we want the Republic in order to take a long-haul flight. tools to get on with the job ourselves without delay. Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman conduct a Mr Reid: It is important to set out first of all what little thought experiment? Imagine that the Irish Republic the debate is not about. It is not about whether air had the same level of air passenger duty as the United passenger duty is a sensible tax; it is about whether we Kingdom. What would the net effect be? It would be should be devolving air passenger duty on long-haul fewer people flying, which would dampen our economic flights to Scotland and Wales. I must admit that I was growth. The point of having APD devolved is to enable disappointed by the lack of preparedness of the hon. economic growth. I hope the hon. Gentleman can grasp Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) for that fundamental point. I also hope that if the Liberal the debate, as he was not able to answer a simple Democrats have a policy of devolution of APD, it is to question from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire devolve it to Scotland. If they do not have a policy, I (Mr Donohoe). It must be remembered that the SNP would be very pleased to provide the SNP’s policy, has the whole Scottish civil service machine to back it which they can adopt free of charge. up. I am extremely surprised that the hon. Gentleman did not come armed with an impact assessment produced Mr Reid: As the hon. Gentleman perfectly well knows, by the Scottish Government to show the benefits of the SNP policy is clearly for independence, not for devolving the tax to Scotland. He had no impact assessment devolving particular taxes. He may put forward a good whatever. case for not having APD at all, but that is not what we are debating today. There are perfectly good arguments Mr MacNeil: Is the hon. Gentleman for or against for abolishing APD or for a lesser rate of APD outside the devolution of APD to Scotland? London and a higher rate of APD for the likes of Heathrow. The Heathrow tax was mentioned. Good arguments could be advanced but that is not the debate Mr Reid: I am waiting for somebody to advance the today. The debate today is on the specific proposal to case for that. The Scotland Act 2012 contains provisions devolve APD on long-haul flights from Scotland and whereby, if the Scottish Government make the case to Wales. I am disappointed that with all the back-up the UK Government for any tax to be devolved, that that the SNP has from the full Scottish civil service tax can be devolved. I am waiting for the Scottish machine, it was not able to present a proper impact Government to make the case. analysis today. As I was saying, the Scotland Act contains provisions Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is a politician, a that allow the Scottish Government to request that Member of Parliament elected to Westminster. Is he extra taxes be devolved, so there is a system for doing unable to advance the case himself to devolve APD to that. I suggest that the way forward for the SNP is to Scotland? That is a shocking state of affairs. request that the UK Government, under that Act, consider that. We could then have a proper, detailed debate with Mr Reid: It is the hon. Gentleman who tabled the new all the facts and figures at our disposal. clause and spoke to it today. It is incumbent upon him to make the case. I do not have the benefit of the entire Mr MacNeil: One of the quotes I gave earlier mentioned Scottish civil service machine at my beck and call, which the fear of the loss to Scotland of 2.1 million passengers the SNP has. before 2016. Would that information not at least encourage the hon. Gentleman, if he is going to develop a policy, Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Could the hon. to develop one in favour of the devolution of APD? Gentleman please tell the Committee what is the policy of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the party he represents? Mr Reid: Well, that is something the Scottish Government What is his party’s policy? could put forward to the UK Government as an argument for devolving the tax. I will take an intervention from Mr Reid: What we are debating today is a proposal any SNP Member who can— from the SNP and Plaid Cymru to devolve certain aspects of APD relating to long-haul flights from Scotland Angus Robertson: I will ask the hon. Gentleman my and Wales. I was expecting an analysis to be presented, question a second time: what is the policy of the Scottish but hon. Members could not even tell us the number of Liberal Democrats? flights that would be affected. When the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar moves amendments in future, Mr Reid: I gave way to the hon. Gentleman on the he should present detailed analysis of the benefits and assumption that he would answer my question, rather everything else that would be affected. than coming up with another one himself. I think that To compare the situation of Scotland with that of we have exhausted this debate. In conclusion, the SNP Northern Ireland is not accurate. As I said in an earlier and Plaid Cymru have not made the case today, so I will intervention, the justification for devolving air passenger not be following them into the Lobby. duty to Northern Ireland was the land border with the Irish Republic, which means that people from Northern Cathy Jamieson: It is always entertaining to hear the Ireland would be attracted to travel to airports in the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), Irish Republic for long-haul flights to take advantage of who moved new clause 3 on behalf of the SNP. I have 597 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 598 shared a few flights with him, both short-haul and The issue of the perceived anomalies around the long-haul, and know how passionately he speaks on Caribbean destinations was raised as something that these matters. I hope to take a flight to Inverness in the ought to be investigated further. The Caribbean Council not-too-distant future—[Interruption.] It is great to has raised a number of issues; I believe that it has made hear that SNP Members are so keen for me to get to the direct representations to the Minister, as have some of Labour conference, along with the other Scottish Labour my Labour colleagues, I understand, in the hope that MPs who will be playing a full part in proceedings. something could be done. I am also aware of the “A Fair Tax on Flying” Angus Robertson: Will the hon. Lady give the Committee campaign, as part of which more than 200,000 e-mails a sneak preview and explain to Members on both sides were sent. Many MPs received hundreds of e-mails of the Committee whether she will be voting in favour during that time from constituents concerned about the of the Scottish Labour party adopting a policy of issue. devolving APD, and will she be joining the SNP in the Lobby later? Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Obviously, my hon. Friend will know that there were special circumstances Cathy Jamieson: I will not be joining the SNP in the for Northern Ireland; the Northern Ireland Committee, Lobby, and I will explain why shortly. I will first take of which I am a member, made that clear. Does she not this opportunity to remind hon. Members who have accept that the United Kingdom has the highest air chosen to portray in a slightly different way the consultation passenger duty of any part of Europe and that we exercise that the Scottish Labour party conducted that should be moving towards taking the duty completely there is going to be a consultation process. I suppose it away? In the meantime, does she not feel that devolving would be too much to hope that the SNP will contribute the matter to Wales and Scotland might be a way forward? constructively to that process. I am sure that we will continue to have interesting debates and discussions. Cathy Jamieson: I thank my hon. Friend for that Let me deal with the arguments relating to new clause intervention. I know how much of an interest she has 3 and new schedule 1. I think that my hon. Friend the taken in the issue. My concern is to look at the matter Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who speaks sensibly in the round. The problem is that, if the with some authority on these matters, and the hon. amendments were implemented, we would once again Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) have made clear have a piecemeal arrangement in which something might the limitations of the new clause and the new schedule happen for Scotland and Wales, but nothing would proposed today. They would not address all the issues happen across the wider UK. on APD, which have been well rehearsed in a number of As SNP Members reminded us, we are a United debates on the Floor of the House. In the Back-Bench Kingdom and we want to ensure that we have the business debate held in November last year, hon. Members benefits of the United Kingdom and continue to do so. on both sides of the House raised real concerns about The comments from the SNP suggesting that somehow how APD was operating. There was a suggestion that the 2014 referendum was a done deal and that Scotland the Government should produce a report, a point I will would be independent are far from the reality on the return to later. ground when we speak to the people of Scotland. Without wishing to open up earlier debates, I should Phil Wilson: We should set aside the selfish approach say that I have absolutely no difficulty in arguing for a shown today by the SNP, because APD is an issue not strong United Kingdom. That does not mean that I just for Scotland and Northern Ireland, but for many would support everything that the Government would UK regions, including the north-east of England. Durham do, as some suggested. I am sure that the Minister and Tees Valley airport, in my constituency, is under capacity. others know that that is far from being the case. One way to ensure that we fill such airports to capacity is to have a regional variation in APD. Would that Mr Llwyd: How closely has the hon. Lady monitored approach not satisfy the whole UK and not just Scotland? the views of Welsh Members on this issue? The right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), the former Secretary 5pm of State for Wales, said: Cathy Jamieson: My hon. Friend makes an important “Given the Secretary of State’s admission that this measure and interesting point. In that debate in November, a could be included in a Finance Bill, it could be in the Finance number of hon. Members from different parts of the Bill”— UK acknowledged that there were concerns and there this one— needed to be a fresh look at the issue of APD, not only “in a few months’ time. Then we could get on with it.”—[Official to tackle congestion in the south-east, but to recognise Report, Welsh Grand Committee, 23 January 2013; c. 30.] some of the representations made not only by Scottish The shadow Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. and Welsh airports, but by those in the north-east— Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), said: specifically, Newcastle and Manchester airports. “Why on earth are we waiting and not pressing ahead? The At that stage, the general view of those representations people of Wales need growth in the economy.”—[Official Report, was that the issue did not affect only Scotland and Welsh Grand Committee, 23 January 2013; c. 17.] Wales; it affected the wider UK. Air passenger duty puts a significant amount of funding into the Treasury Cathy Jamieson: The right hon. Gentleman asks how so it is important to consider the issue in the round. A closely I have been monitoring the situation. I have not number of airlines as well as airports have made only been doing that; I have had discussions with a representations and different business and tourism concerns number of Members, including those from Wales. My have been raised. hon. Friends from Wales, and from Scotland, appear to 599 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 600

[Cathy Jamieson] not make the case for it. There has been no proper impact assessment. There are mechanisms by which the be able to distinguish between what has been put on case could be made, but SNP Members have not done today’s Order Paper as a political fix or stunt in order to so today. grandstand and make some wider arguments, and having a sensible debate about the real issues, which is entirely Cathy Jamieson: I thank the hon. Gentleman. He has different. put his position firmly on the record in exactly the way I would anticipate, because I know from the work that he Jonathan Edwards: On a point of order, Mr Evans. has done on the Scottish Affairs Committee and elsewhere Since when has an amendment agreed by the Clerks of that he takes this issue extremely seriously and is not this House been a political stunt? This is what the slow to make points that are often not entirely in line Labour party is saying in the media. It is a disgrace and with his Government colleagues if he feels that that is it brings dishonour on this Chamber. [Interruption.] the right thing to do. His comments are very important. I want to finish by probing the Minister further to see The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means where the Government intend to go with this. Although (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Everything that is being debated representations have been made, the Government have today is in order; otherwise it would not have been not committed to anything other than looking at the selected. It sounds to me like part of the current debate. rates for this year and the year ahead. It is unclear whether they intend to address any anomalies and conduct Cathy Jamieson: Thank you, Mr Evans. further work—perhaps building on various independent reports and the work of the Transport Committee—in I have no concern about whether what is on the Order order to consider the issue in more detail. Paper is in order; of course, if the Clerks have accepted it, it is indeed in order. I recall some of the Members Those who tabled the amendments will not be surprised who are bickering and heckling from the Back Benches to hear—I suspect they expected me to say this—that making similar remarks about perfectly legitimate we will not support them. I look forward to hearing amendments that Labour Members have tabled in the what the Minister has to say about how we might past, and perhaps making similar suggestions. I am usefully take this issue forward, not just for the benefit criticising not what is on the Order Paper but the fact of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, which are that hon. Members apparently wish to widen this debate very important, but for the benefit of the various regions to the whole question of breaking off certain parts of and areas of England where hon. Members are making the United Kingdom instead of focusing on the specific a case on behalf of their constituents. issue. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): This is a very serious matter, as was highlighted I thank all hon. Members who have taken part in this during the Back-Bench debate that we had back in energetic debate, which has aroused strong passions in November. At that time, we as a House came to an some parties. agreement that the issue should be looked at in more detail. I would be interested to hear from the Minister Clause 183 sets the air passenger duty rates for 2013-14. what action has been taken. Prior to the election, the These rates were first announced at Budget 2012 and Conservatives gave a commitment to look at the per-plane took effect from 1 April 2013. The rates have increased duty. The resulting report was not taken forward for by inflation only. Because of rounding, band A has very good reasons; certainly, the industry did not support remained the same, so about 80% of passengers have it. Following all the representations that have been seen no cash-terms increase in the rates they pay. made and the Back-Bench debate that took place, is the Clause 184 gives Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs Minister now in a position to respond to some of the the power to require payments on account in relation to issues that have been raised today and to say whether a the APD annual accounting scheme, which was introduced further report is necessary? to minimise administrative burdens for the extension of APD to business jets and will improve the fairness Pete Wishart: We do not have a clue what the Liberal of the tax overall. The clause also updates the list of position on APD is, and the hon. Member for Argyll territories in band B of APD to include the new nation and Bute (Mr Reid) does not have a clue himself. We of South Sudan. have the “jam tomorrow” commission looking at this, It is important to recognise the need for the aviation but what is the view of the hon. Lady and the Labour sector to make a fair contribution to the public finances. party on APD? I remind hon. Members that no tax is levied on the fuel used in international and almost all domestic flights. Cathy Jamieson: Our view is that we will not support Moreover, no VAT is levied on international flights and, the new clause because we do not believe it is the correct unlike many other countries, the UK does not charge way forward. The Labour party’s position, as already VAT on domestic flights. outlined by the leader of the Scottish Labour party, is It was in recognition of the fact that aviation was to put forward some points for consultation. That is the under-taxed compared with other sectors of the economy right and proper thing to do. It is of course for the that APD was first introduced in 1994. It was introduced Liberal Democrats to answer for themselves rather than purely as a revenue-raising tax and it remains a vital for Labour to do it for them. revenue-raiser today. However, despite the challenge of the budget deficit that we inherited, this Government Mr Reid: Let me put it on record that I will not have limited increases in APD to inflation only in the support the new clause because, as I said, the hon. period since 2010-11. During this period, rates have Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) did increased by only £1 for the vast majority of passengers. 601 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 602

Furthermore, recognising the sector’s need to plan ahead, and Bute, passengers who might go to Belfast have the we have provided greater clarity on future rates. Budget opportunity to travel to Dublin by car. Clearly, that 2013 set out that the rates for 2014 and 2015 will rise in opportunity does not exist in Scotland. line with inflation only. The real burden of APD will We are working closely with the Northern Ireland remain unchanged for a further year. Executive to consider options for rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy, and we are carefully considering the Phil Wilson: On the effect of APD on regional airports recommendations of the Silk commission in Wales. Any such as Durham Tees Valley airport in my constituency devolution of APD, however, must take into account and Newcastle airport a few miles from the Scottish the broad range of views on this subject. In response to border, will the Government consider regional APD the 2011 consultation on APD, a substantial number of variations that might incentivise airliners to fly from stakeholders raised concerns about devolution complicating airports other than Heathrow and Gatwick? the APD system and creating distortions in the markets for flights. This concern was reinforced in a recent report Sajid Javid: As the hon. Gentleman will know, the by HMRC suggesting that the devolution of APD could Government have looked at that in the past and have lead to market distortion as a result of passenger ruled it out thus far, because the evidence shows that it redistributions between UK airports, without substantially would lead to significant distortions in the UK market. increasing demand for aviation overall. He will also know, however, that we keep all taxes and duties under review to see whether improvements can In considering whether to devolve APD, hon. Members be made. will surely agree that we must assess the risk of replicating the same problems that Northern Ireland faced from Before I move on to the proposed devolution of lower aviation taxes in the Republic of Ireland. There is taxes, I want to touch on the extension of APD to clearly a concern about an immediate cut in APD rates business jets. A new higher rate has been introduced for for direct long-haul flights from Wales. The Government passengers travelling on planes offering an enhanced therefore believe that the devolution of APD is a subject level of comfort. APD on these flights is double the that requires continued and careful evaluation, if we are prevailing standard rates for business and first class. to be confident about its potential effects across the These changes improve the fairness of the tax overall. country as a whole. In undertaking this evaluation, we New clause 3 proposes devolving to the Scottish should take note of recent data showing that passenger Parliament and the Welsh Assembly the power to set numbers are growing at Scottish airports. Between 2010 APD rates on direct long-haul flights from Scotland and 2011, numbers grew by 5.5% and continued to grow and Wales. New clause 4 and new schedule 1 also last year as well. In fact, Glasgow airport achieved propose cutting the rates for direct long-haul flights growth of 4% in 2012, Aberdeen airport recently achieved from Wales to the short-haul rate in advance of devolution 24 months of consecutive growth and Edinburgh airport from 1 April 2013. The issue of APD devolution is a will provide more choice to passengers in 2013 than ever complex one. As we have heard, it was considered in the before. 2011 consultation and has been debated several times since then, including here today. Hywel Williams: Will the Minister tell the House what happened to passenger numbers from Cardiff 5.15 pm airport over the same period? One of the questions raised is, “Why have the Government devolved elements of APD to Northern Sajid Javid: I do not have the numbers to hand for Ireland, but not to Scotland and Wales?” The Finance Cardiff airport, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman Act 2012 devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly knows the answer. If he wants me to find out for him, the power to set rates on direct long-haul flights. The however, I shall write to him with the numbers, if they rate on short-haul flights remains the same as for those are available. from the rest of the UK. The decision to devolve direct Talking about Wales, we are considering the Silk long-haul rates to Northern Ireland was a reflection of commission’s recommendations, as I have said, but we the unique challenges faced there. As we heard from the must also take note of the concerns of Bristol airport, hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) and which has expressed deep concerns to me that devolution my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute to Wales would have a significantly detrimental impact (Mr Reid), Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK on its business. In presenting his amendments, the hon. to share a land border with another EU member state Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan with a lower rate of aviation tax. The UK Government Edwards) referred to the report by the CBI in Wales. are committed to devolving tax powers where it is to the However, I have an extract from—I believe—the same benefit of the UK as a whole. This is evident from the report he referred to, which says that devolution to Scotland of the stamp duty land tax and “high mobility between Wales and the UK…is a reason for the the landfill tax, which amounts to the biggest transfer rate to remain consistent between the countries.” of fiscal powers from London to Scotland in 300 years. Our analysis needs to be based on a full examination of Mr MacNeil: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that there the evidence. We will not be rushed or pushed into is a competitive disadvantage from APD only where making premature judgments. On that basis, I ask hon. there is a land border with another country or member Members not to press their new clauses. state? Is that the position of the UK Government? Briefly, the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) raised the issue of APD rates to the Sajid Javid: The hon. Gentleman knows the answer, Caribbean. As she rightly said, I recently met a delegation but I shall provide it anyway. As he knows and as we of hon. Members to discuss that important topic. I am heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll the first to accept the valuable contribution that British 603 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 604

[Sajid Javid] Cardiff and the Tories in London, with their wee pals in Westminster, the Liberals, giving them a hand. He reminded people of Caribbean heritage make to our country. I my colleagues just how fortunate we are to have the have promised to reflect on the important points raised SNP Government in Scotland, led by luminaries such by that delegation and many others that have brought as Michael Russell, Kenny MacAskill, Nicola Sturgeon, up the same issue. Alex Neil, John Swinney and, of course, Alex Salmond, We have a plan to cut the deficit and we have already the First Minister. cut it by a third. Our country’s credibility comes from The hon. Gentleman reminded us that the Westminster delivering that plan. APD revenues make an important branch of the Labour party does not want to give contribution to the public finances and this year’s inflation- powers to the Labour Cardiff branch. Clearly, the Labour rate increase is necessary. The extension of APD to brothers in Wales are as happy a band as those in business jets makes the tax fairer overall. I therefore Scotland. We wonder whether they will send an ambassador urge that both clauses in this group stand part of the to Inverness this weekend—I doubt it. They are probably Bill and ask hon. Members kindly to consider withdrawing having a punch-up, one with the other, in Cardiff. their proposed new clauses. Talking of punch-ups, that brings me to the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), who offered Mr MacNeil: I can tell the Minister straight away that himself to the Chamber as a punch bag and was taken we will not be withdrawing our new clauses; we will be up on that offer. My hon. Friend the Member for Moray pressing them to a vote. (Angus Robertson) repeatedly asked him what his policy This has been an enjoyable debate. I certainly enjoyed was and he repeatedly failed to answer the question. He the contribution from the hon. Member for Central was even offered the policy free by the SNP, but he Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who is not in his place at the would not adopt it, just in case, such was the level of moment. [Interruption.] I am told he is on a plane to uncertainty. He is a nice fellow but his politics are sadly Inverness. I wonder. I have found an exchange in Hansard lacking. The arms are open—if he wants to cross the between him and me from March this year, when I Floor and join the SNP, he will be welcome. It is his pointed out to him in an intervention that the UK’s tax politics he has to change. “is reputed to be the world’s most onerous tax on air travel, and I The hon. Gentleman said that the SNP had not made am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is damaging the case. Hang about. Any daft case the Conservatives Scottish airports terribly.” make and the Liberals happily wander through the From everything that he said today, we might be under Lobbies, be it on tuition fees, the bedroom tax—whatever the impression that a certain answer was given, but no. it is, it is yes, yes, yes from the Liberals. He seems to The answer he gave was: be unable to make the case himself for APD to be “I do agree with the hon. Gentleman on this occasion; it is not devolved to Scotland—that was sadly lacking. Will he very often I can say that. The Government are doing absolutely vote tonight for clause 183? Will he come through with nothing for air passengers, the aviation industry and those who us on clause 183? Will he vote against the increase or work in it. They continue with this tax, while our competitors will he vote for it? throughout the world are laughing at us.”—[Official Report, 25 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 1332.] Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman was asked a simple I just wish the hon. Gentleman was here now, to come question by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire through the Lobby with us and put some meaning into (Mr Donohoe): how many flights will be affected? In his words. the half hour since then, has he managed to find out? The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) made a very good speech when, as I see it, he described Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman has not said whether air passenger duty as a win-win situation. I welcome the he is voting with us in the Lobby or voting for an fact that air passenger duty was devolved to Northern increase in APD. On the fourth time of asking, he is still Ireland and I wish those in Northern Ireland well. I unable to tell us what the Liberal Democrat position in hope it succeeds and I hope the economy there grows Scotland is on devolution of APD. from strength to strength. The devolution of air passenger The hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) made duty to Northern Ireland will benefit us all, whether we me pause and think for a while. He wants to bring in live in Scotland, England, the Republic of Ireland or differences in the UK, which I welcome, but sadly he Wales. We have nothing to fear, only fear itself. In years carped at the SNP. I think he took the wrong approach to come, when the Northern Ireland economy—hopefully there. I would be happy to see economic growth in the —develops with that, we will see the wisdom of devolving north-east of England. I would not feel diminished in that power and the folly of not devolving it to other any way if the economy of the north-east of England parts. were to improve, and he should not feel diminished My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East either by Scotland advancing. I suggested to the hon. and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) made a very strong Member for North Antrim earlier that it is a win-win speech—a star speech, in fact. He mentioned the Silk situation. The view of the hon. Member for Sedgefield commission and Labour’s immediate need to devolve is that it is a lose-lose situation. I am pleased to say that APD—it was the other week, but of course there is no that view was not shared by the hon. Member for sign of Welsh Labour in this place today. The word Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), who could see the benefit of “immediate” has a different meaning for Labour Welsh devolving APD to Scotland and Northern Ireland. Members from its meaning for the rest of the English- The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun speaking world. The hon. Gentleman certainly gave us (Cathy Jamieson) certainly understands the need to a scary update of the economic situation in Wales, devolve APD, but then argued against it. She said the where people face the double whammy of Labour in proposal was piecemeal, but did not want to make a 605 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 606 start on it anywhere. Cannot she see that with or without Cairns, Alun Jenkin, Mr Bernard independence more growth in Scotland benefits us all, Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Johnson, Gareth as more growth in the Republic of Ireland and France Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, Joseph surely benefits us all? We should be moving with a big Carmichael, Neil Jones, Andrew heart to ensure that that can happen everywhere and Cash, Mr William Jones, Mr Marcus not be stifling growth. The hon. Lady is a sensible Chishti, Rehman Kawczynski, Daniel Chope, Mr Christopher Kelly, Chris woman and in her heart of hearts she knows the wisdom Clark, rh Greg Kirby, Simon of the proposal. Of course she strayed a little far and Coffey, Dr Thérèse Knight, rh Mr Greg upset my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East Collins, Damian Kwarteng, Kwasi and Dinefwr, but I am sure that she will reflect that she Cox, Mr Geoffrey Laing, Mrs Eleanor possibly went too far. Crouch, Tracey Lancaster, Mark Labour unfortunately is employing again the Bain Davies, Glyn Lansley, rh Mr Andrew principle: no matter what the SNP does, no matter how de Bois, Nick Latham, Pauline sensible or wise, Labour will not vote for it. If Labour Dinenage, Caroline Laws, rh Mr David has one other principle, it is the Kilbrandon principle, Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Leadsom, Andrea which it established in 1970, whereby it prefers a Tory Doyle-Price, Jackie Lee, Jessica Duddridge, James Lee, Dr Phillip Government to independence for Scotland. We have Duncan, rh Mr Alan Leech, Mr John seen that time after time, particularly through the damaging Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Leigh, Mr Edward 1980s. Ellis, Michael Leslie, Charlotte The Minister mentioned inflation, but the Government Ellison, Jane Lewis, Brandon have decided increase the duty at the highest level Ellwood, Mr Tobias Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian possible. I am glad that he is looking at what is happening Elphicke, Charlie Lloyd, Stephen to our friends in the Commonwealth and in the Caribbean Eustice, George Lord, Jonathan in particular. Disappointingly, he was unable to say Evans, Graham Loughton, Tim whether the duty caused a competitive disadvantage to Evennett, Mr David Lumley, Karen Fabricant, Michael Maude, rh Mr Francis the UK compared with other countries that we do not Featherstone, Lynne Maynard, Paul share a land border with. I hope that the finest minds in Fox,rhDrLiam McIntosh, Miss Anne the Treasury can go and research that and perhaps in Francois, rh Mr Mark McVey, Esther years to come we will have an answer. For Wales there Freer, Mike Menzies, Mark were no figures. Fuller, Richard Mercer, Patrick The upshot of this is that the UK Government are Garnier, Sir Edward Metcalfe, Stephen continuing to hamper Scotland. At first, it was a policy Garnier, Mark Miller, rh Maria of omission, but we can now see that they are clearly Gauke, Mr David Mills, Nigel hampering Scotland by commission. That is why we Gibb, Mr Nick Milton, Anne must vote for independence in the autumn of 2014. Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Mordaunt, Penny Glen, John Morris, Anne Marie Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Goldsmith, Zac Mosley, Stephen The Committee divided: Ayes 10, Noes 237. Goodwill, Mr Robert Mowat, David Gove, rh Michael Mulholland, Greg Division No. 218] [5.29 pm Graham, Richard Newmark, Mr Brooks Grant, Mrs Helen Newton, Sarah AYES Gray, Mr James Nokes, Caroline Edwards, Jonathan Skinner, Mr Dennis Green, rh Damian Norman, Jesse Hosie, Stewart Weir, Mr Mike Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Nuttall, Mr David Griffiths, Andrew Ollerenshaw, Eric Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Lucas, Caroline Gummer, Ben Ottaway, Richard MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Tellers for the Ayes: Gyimah, Mr Sam Paice, rh Sir James Paisley, Ian Pete Wishart and Halfon, Robert Parish, Neil Robertson, Angus Hywel Williams Hammond, Stephen Patel, Priti Hancock, Matthew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Hands, Greg Pawsey, Mark NOES Harris, Rebecca Penning, Mike Afriyie, Adam Bottomley, Sir Peter Hayes, rh Mr John Penrose, John Aldous, Peter Bradley, Karen Heaton-Harris, Chris Percy, Andrew Andrew, Stuart Brady, Mr Graham Hemming, John Perry, Claire Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bray, Angie Henderson, Gordon Phillips, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Brazier, Mr Julian Herbert, rh Nick Pincher, Christopher Baker, Norman Bridgen, Andrew Hinds, Damian Prisk, Mr Mark Baker, Steve Brine, Steve Hoban, Mr Mark Pritchard, Mark Baldry, Sir Tony Brokenshire, James Hollingbery, George Pugh, John Baldwin, Harriett Bruce, Fiona Hollobone, Mr Philip Raab, Mr Dominic Barclay, Stephen Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Howarth, Sir Gerald Randall, rh Mr John Barker, rh Gregory Buckland, Mr Robert Howell, John Reckless, Mark Beith, rh Sir Alan Burns, Conor Hughes, rh Simon Redwood, rh Mr John Beresford, Sir Paul Burns, rh Mr Simon Huppert, Dr Julian Rees-Mogg, Jacob Berry, Jake Burrowes, Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick Reevell, Simon Blackman, Bob Burt, Alistair Jackson, Mr Stewart Reid, Mr Alan Blunt, Mr Crispin Burt, Lorely James, Margot Robertson, rh Hugh Bone, Mr Peter Byles, Dan Javid, Sajid Robertson, Mr Laurence 607 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 608

Rogerson, Dan Timpson, Mr Edward Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Howarth, Sir Gerald Rosindell, Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Buckland, Mr Robert Howell, John Rudd, Amber Truss, Elizabeth Burns, Conor Hughes, rh Simon Ruffley, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Burns, rh Mr Simon Huppert, Dr Julian Russell, Sir Bob Tyrie, Mr Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick Rutley, David Vaizey, Mr Edward Burt, Alistair James, Margot Sandys, Laura Vara, Mr Shailesh Burt, Lorely Javid, Sajid Scott, Mr Lee Vickers, Martin Byles, Dan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles Cairns, Alun Johnson, Gareth Simpson, Mr Keith Walker, Mr Robin Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Johnson, Joseph Skidmore, Chris Wallace, Mr Ben Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Andrew Smith, Miss Chloe Watkinson, Dame Angela Carmichael, Neil Jones, Mr Marcus Smith, Henry Weatherley, Mike Cash, Mr William Kawczynski, Daniel Smith, Julian Webb, Steve Chishti, Rehman Kelly, Chris Smith, Sir Robert Wharton, James Chope, Mr Christopher Kirby, Simon Soames, rh Nicholas White, Chris Clark, rh Greg Knight, rh Mr Greg Soubry, Anna Whittaker, Craig Coffey, Dr Thérèse Kwarteng, Kwasi Spencer, Mr Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Collins, Damian Laing, Mrs Eleanor Stanley, rh Sir John Wiggin, Bill Cox, Mr Geoffrey Lancaster, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Crouch, Tracey Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Bob Williams, Stephen Davies, Glyn Latham, Pauline Stewart, Iain Williamson, Gavin de Bois, Nick Laws, rh Mr David Streeter, Mr Gary Wilson, Mr Rob Dinenage, Caroline Leadsom, Andrea Stride, Mel Wollaston, Dr Sarah Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Lee, Jessica Stunell, rh Andrew Wright, Simon Doyle-Price, Jackie Lee, Dr Phillip Sturdy, Julian Yeo, Mr Tim Duddridge, James Leech, Mr John Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Young, rh Sir George Duncan, rh Mr Alan Leigh, Mr Edward Swinson, Jo Zahawi, Nadhim Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Leslie, Charlotte Syms, Mr Robert Tellers for the Noes: Ellis, Michael Lewis, Brandon Thornton, Mike Nicky Morgan and Ellison, Jane Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Thurso, John Mark Hunter Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lloyd, Stephen Elphicke, Charlie Lord, Jonathan Eustice, George Loughton, Tim Question accordingly negatived. Evans, Graham Lumley, Karen Evennett, Mr David Maude, rh Mr Francis New Clause 4 Fabricant, Michael Maynard, Paul Featherstone, Lynne McIntosh, Miss Anne Fox,rhDrLiam McVey, Esther AIR PASSENGER DUTY:WALES Francois, rh Mr Mark Menzies, Mark ‘Schedule (Air Passenger Duty: Wales) has effect’.—(Jonathan Freer, Mike Mercer, Patrick Edwards.) Fuller, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Brought up, and read the First time. Garnier, Sir Edward Miller, rh Maria Garnier, Mark Mills, Nigel Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Gauke, Mr David Milton, Anne The Committee divided: Ayes 11, Noes 233. Gibb, Mr Nick Mordaunt, Penny Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Morris, Anne Marie Division No. 219] [5.40 pm Glen, John Mosley, Stephen Goldsmith, Zac Mowat, David AYES Goodwill, Mr Robert Mulholland, Greg Edwards, Jonathan Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Gove, rh Michael Newmark, Mr Brooks Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Williams, Hywel Graham, Richard Newton, Sarah MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Williams, Mr Mark Grant, Mrs Helen Nokes, Caroline Paisley, Ian Wishart, Pete Gray, Mr James Norman, Jesse Robertson, Angus Tellers for the Ayes: Green, rh Damian Nuttall, Mr David Skinner, Mr Dennis Stewart Hosie and Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Ollerenshaw, Eric Weir, Mr Mike Caroline Lucas Griffiths, Andrew Ottaway, Richard Gummer, Ben Paice, rh Sir James Gyimah, Mr Sam Parish, Neil NOES Halfon, Robert Patel, Priti Afriyie, Adam Berry, Jake Hammond, Stephen Paterson, rh Mr Owen Aldous, Peter Blackman, Bob Hancock, Matthew Pawsey, Mark Andrew, Stuart Blunt, Mr Crispin Hands, Greg Penning, Mike Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bone, Mr Peter Harris, Rebecca Penrose, John Bacon, Mr Richard Bottomley, Sir Peter Hayes, rh Mr John Percy, Andrew Baker, Norman Bradley, Karen Heaton-Harris, Chris Perry, Claire Baker, Steve Brady, Mr Graham Hemming, John Phillips, Stephen Baldry, Sir Tony Bray, Angie Henderson, Gordon Pincher, Christopher Baldwin, Harriett Brazier, Mr Julian Herbert, rh Nick Prisk, Mr Mark Barclay, Stephen Bridgen, Andrew Hinds, Damian Pritchard, Mark Barker, rh Gregory Brine, Steve Hoban, Mr Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Beith, rh Sir Alan Brokenshire, James Hollingbery, George Randall, rh Mr John Beresford, Sir Paul Bruce, Fiona Hollobone, Mr Philip Reckless, Mark 609 Finance (No. 2) Bill18 APRIL 2013 Finance (No. 2) Bill 610

Redwood, rh Mr John Syms, Mr Robert Davies, Glyn Latham, Pauline Rees-Mogg, Jacob Thornton, Mike de Bois, Nick Leadsom, Andrea Reevell, Simon Thurso, John Dinenage, Caroline Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Timpson, Mr Edward Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, rh Hugh Tomlinson, Justin Doyle-Price, Jackie Leech, Mr John Robertson, Mr Laurence Truss, Elizabeth Duddridge, James Leigh, Mr Edward Rogerson, Dan Turner, Mr Andrew Duncan, rh Mr Alan Leslie, Charlotte Rosindell, Andrew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Vaizey, Mr Edward Ellis, Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Vara, Mr Shailesh Ellison, Jane Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Sir Bob Vickers, Martin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Walker, Mr Charles Elphicke, Charlie Lord, Jonathan Sandys, Laura Walker, Mr Robin Eustice, George Loughton, Tim Scott, Mr Lee Watkinson, Dame Angela Evans, Graham Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Evennett, Mr David Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith Webb, Steve Fabricant, Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Skidmore, Chris Wharton, James Featherstone, Lynne McVey, Esther Smith, Miss Chloe White, Chris Field, Mark Menzies, Mark Smith, Henry Whittaker, Craig Fox,rhDrLiam Mercer, Patrick Smith, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Francois, rh Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Wiggin, Bill Freer, Mike Miller, rh Maria Soames, rh Nicholas Willetts, rh Mr David Fuller, Richard Mills, Nigel Soubry, Anna Williams, Stephen Garnier, Sir Edward Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Williamson, Gavin Garnier, Mark Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Gauke, Mr David Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Bob Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gibb, Mr Nick Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Iain Wright, Simon Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Mosley, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Yeo, Mr Tim Glen, John Mowat, David Stride, Mel Young, rh Sir George Goldsmith, Zac Mulholland, Greg Stunell, rh Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Goodwill, Mr Robert Newmark, Mr Brooks Sturdy, Julian Tellers for the Noes: Gove, rh Michael Newton, Sarah Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Mark Hunter and Graham, Richard Nokes, Caroline Swinson, Jo Nicky Morgan Grant, Mrs Helen Norman, Jesse Gray, Mr James Nuttall, Mr David Green, rh Damian Ollerenshaw, Eric Question accordingly negatived. Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Ottaway, Richard Griffiths, Andrew Paice, rh Sir James Clause 183 Gummer, Ben Parish, Neil Gyimah, Mr Sam Patel, Priti Halfon, Robert Paterson, rh Mr Owen AIR PASSENGER DUTY: RATES OF DUTY FROM 1APRIL Hammond, Stephen Pawsey, Mark 2013 Hancock, Matthew Penning, Mike Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Hands, Greg Penrose, John Harris, Rebecca Percy, Andrew The Committee divided: Ayes 237, Noes 9. Hayes, rh Mr John Perry, Claire Division No. 220] [5.51 pm Heaton-Harris, Chris Phillips, Stephen Hemming, John Pincher, Christopher AYES Henderson, Gordon Prisk, Mr Mark Herbert, rh Nick Pritchard, Mark Adams, Nigel Brine, Steve Hinds, Damian Raab, Mr Dominic Afriyie, Adam Brokenshire, James Hoban, Mr Mark Randall, rh Mr John Aldous, Peter Bruce, Fiona Hollingbery, George Reckless, Mark Andrew, Stuart Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hollobone, Mr Philip Redwood, rh Mr John Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Buckland, Mr Robert Howarth, Sir Gerald Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bacon, Mr Richard Burns, Conor Howell, John Reevell, Simon Baker, Norman Burns, rh Mr Simon Hughes, rh Simon Reid, Mr Alan Baker, Steve Burrowes, Mr David Huppert, Dr Julian Robertson, rh Hugh Baldry, Sir Tony Burt, Alistair Hurd, Mr Nick Robertson, Mr Laurence Baldwin, Harriett Burt, Lorely James, Margot Rogerson, Dan Barclay, Stephen Byles, Dan Javid, Sajid Rosindell, Andrew Barker, rh Gregory Cairns, Alun Jenkin, Mr Bernard Rudd, Amber Beith, rh Sir Alan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Johnson, Gareth Ruffley, Mr David Beresford, Sir Paul Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, Joseph Russell, Sir Bob Berry, Jake Carmichael, Neil Blackman, Bob Cash, Mr William Jones, Andrew Rutley, David Blunt, Mr Crispin Chishti, Rehman Jones, Mr Marcus Sandys, Laura Bone, Mr Peter Chope, Mr Christopher Kawczynski, Daniel Scott, Mr Lee Bradley, Karen Clark, rh Greg Kelly, Chris Selous, Andrew Brady, Mr Graham Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Kirby, Simon Simpson, Mr Keith Brake, rh Tom Coffey, Dr Thérèse Knight, rh Mr Greg Skidmore, Chris Bray, Angie Collins, Damian Kwarteng, Kwasi Smith, Miss Chloe Brazier, Mr Julian Cox, Mr Geoffrey Laing, Mrs Eleanor Smith, Henry Bridgen, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Smith, Julian 611 Finance (No. 2) Bill 18 APRIL 2013 612

Smith, Sir Robert Walker, Mr Charles Obstetric and Paediatric Services Soames, rh Nicholas Walker, Mr Robin Soubry, Anna Watkinson, Dame Angela (East Sussex) Spencer, Mr Mark Weatherley, Mike Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Stanley, rh Sir John Webb, Steve do now adjourn.—(Anne Milton.) Stephenson, Andrew Wharton, James Stewart, Bob White, Chris Stewart, Iain Whittaker, Craig 6.3 pm Streeter, Mr Gary Whittingdale, Mr John Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Let me begin by Stride, Mel Wiggin, Bill thanking Mr. Speaker for allowing the debate, and by Stunell, rh Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David welcoming the Minister. Sturdy, Julian Williams, Mr Mark Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Williams, Roger Unfortunately, it is an extremely challenging situation Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Stephen for my constituency that brings me here today: the Thornton, Mike Williamson, Gavin imminent downgrading of the obstetrics and maternity Thurso, John Wilson, Mr Rob department and the ending of in-patient paediatric Timpson, Mr Edward Wollaston, Dr Sarah services at my local hospital, Eastbourne district general Tomlinson, Justin Wright, Simon hospital, which is managed by East Sussex Healthcare Truss, Elizabeth Yeo, Mr Tim NHS Trust. Young, rh Sir George Turner, Mr Andrew ESHT, as I will now call it, attempted to downgrade Tyrie, Mr Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim maternity services once before, in 2007, but East Sussex Vaizey, Mr Edward Tellers for the Ayes: county council’s health overview and scrutiny committee, Vara, Mr Shailesh Mark Lancaster and Vickers, Martin Hywel Williams or HOSC, had severe reservations and duly referred the plans to the then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan NOES Johnson), who referred the proposals to the independent Hosie, Stewart Weir, Mr Mike reconfiguration panel, or IRP. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Whiteford, Dr Eilidh As the Minister will be all too aware, the IRP is the Wishart, Pete MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan independent expert on NHS service change and advises Paisley, Ian Tellers for the Noes: the Secretary of State for Health on contested Robertson, Angus Mark Hunter and reconfiguration proposals in England. In 2008, it finally Skinner, Mr Dennis Jonathan Edwards published its recommendations, which were that consultant-led maternity, special care baby, in-patient Question accordingly agreed to. gynaecology and related services must be retained on both sites—at Eastbourne district general hospital and 6.2 pm Conquest hospital at Hastings. More than six hours having elapsed since the The IRP felt that the trust did not make a clear case commencement of proceedings, the proceedings were for safer and more sustainable services for the people of interrupted (Programme Order, 15 April). East Sussex and specifically that the proposals reduced The Chair put forthwith the Question necessary for the accessibility compared with current service provision disposal of business at that time (Standing Order No. 83D). and that the journey from the DGH to the Conquest Clause 184 ordered to stand part of the Bill. hospital posed a risk of incidents for women, especially during unexpected transfers. The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Despite clear guidance from the IRP on how the Bill (Clauses 1, 3, 16, 183, 184 and 200 to 212 and hospital trust must remedy the problem, four years later Schedules 3 and 41) reported, without amendment (Standing a report from the national clinical advisory team, or Order No. 83D(6), and ordered to lie on the Table. NCAT, has deemed maternity services in East Sussex unsafe. That has given ESHT the opportunity to downgrade Eastbourne’s maternity from a consultant-led department to a midwife-led department almost immediately and, because safety is involved, without consultation. The trust managers have achieved exactly what they failed to achieve all those years ago. Is that a coincidence? I think not. Let me be clear that I do not contest the findings of that report. How can I? I am not a clinician. However, I am extremely angry that we have found ourselves back where we were, with my hospital losing its consultant-led maternity services. We are back to the point at which we fought and won all those years ago, only now it seems it was a pyrrhic victory and that in fact we have lost. Eastbourne is to forgo its consultant-led maternity after all. Frankly, I think that is outrageous—absolutely outrageous. Eastbourne is the fastest growing town in East Sussex. Our fastest growing demographic is 25 to 45, the age at which most people have children. The road connections 613 Obstetric and Paediatric Services 18 APRIL 2013 Obstetric and Paediatric Services 614 (East Sussex) (East Sussex) between Eastbourne DGH and the Conquest hospital This is not the first time I have taken issue with the in Hastings are appalling—that was highlighted by the Department. Immediately before the maternity and IRP report five years ago and they are still dreadful. paediatric downgrade, the hospital trust also removed Where does the responsibility for that grotesque shambles emergency orthopaedics and emergency and highest lie? In the opinion of the cross-party “Save the DGH” risk elective general surgery from Eastbourne district campaign team, of the Under-Secretary of State for general hospital. I and colleagues from the Save the Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman DGH team were eventually able to meet the Secretary Baker)—I am delighted to welcome his support today of State. We made it clear to him that the proposals and although I know he cannot speak in the debate, I to remove orthopaedics and general surgery from appreciate his presence in the Chamber—and of many Eastbourne DGH did not meet all the Government’s tens of thousands of people across Eastbourne and the four reconfiguration tests. I showed him the meeting surrounding area, as well as in my opinion, the responsibility papers which clearly state that our local GP commissioners lies squarely with the current leadership of the trust did not support the move. The Minister then agreed to and, specifically, at the feet of the chief executive, write to NHS South of England to investigate this Mr Grayson, and the chairman, Mr Welling. further, and I received a reply from the Secretary of State a month later, in which he states: It has been made clear to me by many employees of the trust over a number of years that the trust was “NHS South of England...issatisfied the proposals to reconfigure health services in East Sussex meet the requirements determined to push through these downgrades, regardless under the four tests.” of the recommendations of the IRP. That was obvious for all to see when the chief executive, Mr Grayson, In the view of Eastbourne, Hailsham and Seaford clinical who, when he was asked about the reconfiguration at a commissioning group, emergency general surgery and HOSC meeting only last month, stated: emergency orthopaedics should be sited at Eastbourne DGH, so clearly those two views contradict each other. “I think it is fair to say the health and social care system in East I find that extraordinary. Sussex failed women and babies in East Sussex when it failed to deliver a change to services in 2008 which, I feel, would have made Added to this, we conducted surveys of local GPs them safer…we could have done something safer in 2007/08...we and consultants which showed that more than 90% of need to keep that at the front of our minds as we move into the DGH consultants and 42 local GPs were opposed to next period.” the plans, and more than 36,000 people signed a petition These words do not sound like a senior manager dedicated against the proposals in only 18 days, which gives a to implementing a solution that the IRP said was not strong indication of the strength of local feeling. only sustainable, had the recommendations been properly Alarmingly, the Secretary of State also informed me followed, but in the best interests of the safety of local at our meeting that the issue had not even come on to mums and babies. Or does the Minister disagree with his radar, despite his office confirming some weeks my proposition? previously that it had received 5,506 letters in three Let me move to the current proposals. The main months from people in Eastbourne and the surrounding incidents that led to the safety issues, according to the area. These were individually enveloped letters, yet the NCAT report, were problems related to staffing. For Secretary of State was not made aware of them or of instance, emergency measures were required in September the issue. I find that extraordinary. 2012 owing to the vacancies for middle-grade doctors That brings me to my next key point. I would like to and the absence of two consultants, as well as midwifery know who in the management structure of the health absences running at about 13%. However, on drilling service or at the Department, both now and prior to the down into the data, I discovered that the absence of one recent changes, is responsible for ensuring that trusts of the two consultants was due to retirement, and properly implement IRP recommendations, as it is clear approximately half the midwifery absences were due to in my view and that of others that the trust never maternity leave, all of which, obviously, would have been sincerely implemented the series of recommendations known in advance. Importantly, other than that, the made by the IRP, which were to maintain two sustainable turnover of midwives was reported as low. This clearly and consultant-led maternity units. This obvious lack shows an acute lack of planning and poor senior leadership. of commitment properly to implement the IRP Staff pregnancy is not a secret, and retirement tends, in recommendations was made crystal clear, as I said earlier my experience, to have a pretty clear lead-in period. in my speech, by the trust’s chief executive, Mr Grayson, I have brought up these very concerns and others when he gave evidence to HOSC only last month. with the Care Quality Commission, having met one of Consequently, I would like the Minister to arrange its directors only this week in Westminster. I can safely for me and the cross-party Save the DGH campaign say that the CQC will in future pay even closer attention team, which is ably led by the tenacious campaigner for to the trust and in particular to the district general our local hospital, Liz Walke, to meet his officials hospital. because we need to establish clear lines of communication It is with regret that I also have to tell the House that with the Department. The people of Eastbourne are I have not been hugely impressed with the Department being failed, and to address that we need to ensure of Health over the issue of my local hospital. The co-operation at the highest level. Department has been slow to reply to my letters on Let me explain how the people of Eastbourne are what are, naturally, incredibly important concerns to being failed and what those failings will mean for local my constituents. For instance, I wrote to the Secretary mums and babies. First, the proposed changes mean of State twice on 15 March when the shock news about Eastbourne will be the largest discrete town in the UK consultant-led maternity services being switched to without essential core services. Secondly, Eastbourne Conquest was announced. That will be five weeks ago will have the worst population access factor in the UK. tomorrow, and I have yet to receive a reply. The PAF has been validated as a measure of the access 615 Obstetric and Paediatric Services 18 APRIL 2013 Obstetric and Paediatric Services 616 (East Sussex) (East Sussex) [Stephen Lloyd] private regeneration investment and we have some of the best performing schools in Sussex. Simply put, to nearest facilities according to the size of population—as Eastbourne is a wonderful place to live and bring up a I am sure the Minister knows, it is the distance in miles family, yet—this beggars belief—it seems that our hospital multiplied by the population in thousands. is being salami-sliced, with downgrade after downgrade. Thirdly, the NCAT report confirmed that 36% of It is just plain wrong. I urge the Minister to intervene first-time mothers and 20% of mothers having a second before it is too late. or subsequent baby are referred to a doctor during their It is not only the downgrade of our maternity services pregnancy. Although I accept that expectant mothers that angers me; there is also the decision to close will be screened and those found to be at increased risk in-patient paediatrics at the DGH. By bundling everything will be directed to have their babies at a consultant-led under the “safety” umbrella, the trust has been able to unit in Hastings or Brighton, the original IRP report bypass due process on the basis that NCAT recommends concluded that the risk to mothers was unquantifiable, that maternity and paediatric services be co-located. In and the very nature of birth means that there will be fact, horrifyingly, the NCAT report also states that all examples of mothers who have been screened with no core services should be co-located on one site. Will the problems detected going on to experience complications. trust be able to bypass everything in future and downgrade With around 2,000 births in Eastbourne last year, that is the entire DGH to a cottage hospital at NCAT’s say so? an awful lot of pregnant mothers having to be shipped, It is absolutely absurd. by blue-light services, across to Conquest hospital. Lastly, I have issues about whether staff really can go The South East Coast ambulance service, which gives public with their concerns; frankly, under the current an outstanding service, gave a range of travel times regime they fear for their jobs. I have been contacted by between 23 and 52 minutes. However, the total transfer staff from all the different levels in the hospital. All are time from Eastbourne’s freestanding midwifery-led unit courageously keeping me informed but, equally, they to Hastings consultant obstetric unit is over 60 minutes, are profoundly fearful about going public. That puts and one study showed averages of 90 minutes. The me, their elected representative, in a very difficult position. Minister will know that the total transfer time is the I will not breach their confidentiality without permission important one, rather than the blue-light travel time. It and they do not give their identities for fear of the is the total time from the decision to transfer from the consequences, but the trust management is then able to FMU to arrival in the receiving bed at the obstetrics pooh-pooh my concerns and public statements as not unit, incorporating the time for the ambulance to arrive, being based on fact. In fact, the contract of one of my park, load, travel and unload. Most importantly, it is NHS constituents states: the total “down time” during which a patient with an “If he or she discusses items under consideration by the Trust obstetric problem will not have access to skilled medical that he or she becomes aware of with ‘unauthorised persons’, this obstetric assistance. will result in disciplinary action which may involve dismissal”. Fourthly, even the NHS pregnancy book advises: Minister, that not only prevents staff members from “You should also be aware that if something goes seriously bringing their concerns to their democratically elected wrong during your labour… it could be worse for you and your Member of Parliament, whom the trust determines to baby than if you were in hospital with access to specialised care.” be an “unauthorised person”, but they are not even Let me give the Minister a scenario. A mother in her supposed to discuss concerns with their colleagues. third pregnancy, which has been uncomplicated, arrives Surely to God the Minister agrees that the position is at the midwifery-led unit in Eastbourne, where she had completely unacceptable! planned to deliver. On arrival, she is found to be in early The Secretary of State said recently, and very publicly, labour, her blood pressure is low and the baby’s heart that a culture of “openness and transparency” will be at rate is slow. The patient is transferred urgently by the heart of trying to drive up NHS standards, by ambulance 20 miles east to the consultant-led unit at encouraging NHS staff to speak up when they have Hastings for delivery. We should remember that the concerns. Well, we do not have a culture of openness average total transfer time from when that decision is and transparency within ESHT and the DGH. That is taken to arrival is upwards of 90 minutes. worrying. The baby is born in a frail condition and needs to be Due to the failings of the local trust and the resuscitated by neonatal paediatric staff and helped to mismanagement of the situation that has led us to breathe on a ventilator. The baby will then need to be where we are, I, along with my hon. Friend the Member retrieved by the neonatal transfer team to the neonatal for Lewes (Norman Baker), whose constituents are also intensive care unit in Brighton, which is more than served by the hospital, have called for the resignation of 30 miles to the west, bypassing the DGH. The mother the chief executive, Mr Grayson, and the chair, Mr Welling. will also require transfer to the post-natal unit in Brighton Again, and in Parliament, I reiterate that call and ask in order to be with her baby, and what about her family, that they step down in the interests of the people of husband or partner and the other children and Eastbourne and the surrounding area, so that they can grandparents? I look forward to the Minister telling me be replaced with a more capable leadership team. The how that can possibly offer the mother or the baby a issue does not affect only Eastbourne, but the surrounding better or safer service. area. Last Saturday there was a march in Seaford, I find this situation absolutely foolhardy and almost which is in my hon. Friend’s constituency.It was supported, beyond belief. Eastbourne is a growing town that pulls across parties, by many local residents. together. We have rolled up our sleeves in the teeth of I also take this opportunity to thank my hon. Friend the financial economic downturn and we are bucking the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), who cannot the economic trend: unemployment is down from this be here today as he is elsewhere representing the Prime time last year, our town centre has secured a £70 million Minister as his trade envoy. His constituents are equally 617 Obstetric and Paediatric Services 18 APRIL 2013 Obstetric and Paediatric Services 618 (East Sussex) (East Sussex) served by the DGH. He contacted me to give his express I am told that the trust has been experiencing challenges permission to relay to the House that he, too, wants to in recruiting doctors for the specialties associated with know how we reached a situation where these services obstetric and paediatric services. This has been followed were deemed to be unsafe. He is also keen for the full by advice the trust has recently received from local range of maternity services to be restored to the DGH clinicians and the national clinical advisory team. That as soon as possible. advice, I am told, indicates that the trust’s current In wrapping up, I take the opportunity to thank two maternity and paediatric services cannot continue as local mums in particular. Selene Edwards and Amelia they are. I am told that the current arrangements are West, alongside the Save the DGH campaign group, are unsustainable in terms of delivering a safe service to working hard to protect local services and in a matter patients. I am sure that my hon. Friend has at heart a of weeks have both set up Facebook groups with over desire to ensure that all his constituents receive safe 8,500 members between them. Such community treatments and the safe delivery of their babies. That involvement is bringing the town together to fight the must be his, and indeed everybody’s, priority. changes. I am told that it is because of those factors—the I shall now conclude. The Minister is, of course, free shortage in recruitment and the safety of patients—that to address any of the points I have raised, but I am the trust has had to take urgent action, primarily on the particularly keen for her to address four key points. grounds of patient safety. As my hon. Friend knows, First, how have maternity services at the DGH been the trust met in March and made a temporary decision— allowed to get to the current “unsafe” position despite this is not a permanent decision. the 2008 IRP recommendations being utterly emphatic that consultant-led maternity must remain on both Stephen Lloyd: Will the Minister give way? sites? Secondly, were the 2008 IRP recommendations Anna Soubry: In one moment, if I may, because the ever properly implemented by ESHT? My constituents clock is against me and it is really important that I place and I have lost so much trust as a result of this sorry on the record a proper and full response to my hon. episode that we would insist, reasonably, that the whole Friend’s speech. process should be independently audited by medical experts. Was the 2008 IRP-recommended report ever I am told that this is a temporary measure whereby properly implemented? the consultant-led obstetric service, neonatal services, Thirdly, how do the chief executive and chair of the including a special care baby unit, and in-patient paediatric trust still remain in post when they have presided over and emergency gynaecology services will, in order to this debacle? Finally, I would like to request a meeting make sure that they are safe, be provided by Conquest with the relevant senior Department of Health officials, hospital alone. so that clear lines of communication can be established Stephen Lloyd: Will the Minister give way on that with the Department to fix the problem for my local particular issue? hospital before it is too late. Anna Soubry: Briefly, yes. 6.24 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Stephen Lloyd: I appreciate that. The Minister will be (Anna Soubry): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member interested to know that I went to an extraordinary for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) on securing this debate. general meeting where the chair said that the measure Given that no doubt many people in his constituency would be temporary. I got a commitment that it would will, I hope, read all my speech and all the comments I last for 18 months. I then publicised that and three days make, it is very important that I make a number of matters later I got a clarifying letter saying, “No, Mr Lloyd, we very clear. As I am confident that he knows extremely are saying that in 18 months we will consult on whether well, this decision does not lie with the Department of it is temporary.” I do not believe that it is temporary, Health. When he asks me a series of questions, which of and having the Minister support the idea that it will be course I am more than happy to answer, he must know, temporary means that it is more likely to stay as such. and those reading or listening to this speech must know, that these decisions are local decisions. Anna Soubry: I get the point, but it is not a question The coalition Government have taken the view that it of me supporting or believing in anything. I have been is only right and proper that decisions of this nature given information and am placing it before the House regarding the provision of NHS services are made to ensure that the good people whom my hon. Friend locally. My hon. Friend, quite properly, comes to this represents have the full picture. It would be a serious place to raise these matters on behalf of his constituents. allegation to suggest that the information with which I I make no complaint at all about any Member of this have been provided is false. I can say only what I have place doing that, because, in many ways, it is our been told, which is that it is a temporary decision. primary job. However, it is also absolutely imperative That is combined with the establishment of a stand-alone, that when hon. Members, like my hon. Friend, come midwifery-led maternity unit, alongside a short-stay here and put forward a complaint on their constituents’ paediatric assessment unit at Eastbourne district general behalf, it is made clear where the decision-making process hospital. This means that if a paediatric patient requires lies and where the responsibility lies—and it lies at a in-patient admission, they will be transferred to Hastings local level. That is why, in replying to his speech, I rely under the interim change. on information provided to me not by my officials in the As yet, no woman or child has been transferred to Department, because they are not party to this decision, Conquest hospital. I understand that the project plans but by the various trusts, knowing the processes and are in place for the delivery of the interim configuration understanding that this, as he must know, is a local of maternity and paediatric services, providing a single-site matter. service at the Conquest hospital from 7 May. 619 Obstetric and Paediatric Services 18 APRIL 2013 Obstetric and Paediatric Services 620 (East Sussex) (East Sussex) [Anna Soubry] Anna Soubry: No, I am afraid that I cannot take any more interventions, because I am keen to place the My hon. Friend is fully aware that the trust has following on the record. The trust’s latest decision has confirmed, as I have said, that this is a temporary been taken on urgent safety grounds as a temporary change and, indeed, that a strategic and long-term solution, and CCGs—clinicians, doctors and nurses—hope solution will need to be agreed within 18 months. It is to and will find the long-term solution to the problem. also important to remind hon. Members that I am told In arriving at that solution, CCGs will want to assess that the process will be led by local general practitioners proposals against the four tests that have already been and what we now call local clinical commissioning outlined. Adhering to those tests and continuing to groups. focus on the needs of the local population will ensure I am conscious that the clock is against me, but there that proposed changes to services are locally led, not is much I wish to say. I press on my hon. Friend that, as Government-driven or directed by Whitehall. I have said, there are no specific proposals at the moment. We hope that everyone will work together, including I am informed that in order to develop a solution, the the local authority’s health and wellbeing board. Moreover, future of maternity and paediatric services is being the health overview and scrutiny committee is a very considered as part of a separate, countywide programme important organisation that can refer proposals to the called Sussex Together, which will bring together doctors, Secretary of State. It comprises democratically elected nurses and health professionals, in conjunction with members and professionals, all of whom can ensure local authority colleagues from across the county, so that the right thing is done. there is a real opportunity to improve health services and outcomes across organisational boundaries. Stephen Lloyd: Will the Minister give way? I will, of course, write to my hon. Friend to try to answer all his questions. I wish I had been given notice Anna Soubry: No, I only have 10 seconds left. The of them, because I could have answered them today, but committee has the power to refer proposals for changes I am precluded from doing so. At the moment there is to services to the Secretary of State— no point in my meeting any of his good constituents who are leading the campaign, because there is nothing that we in the Department can do. As I have said, this is a local decision and it is temporary. 6.33 pm Stephen Lloyd: Will the Minister give way on that House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order point? No. 9(7)). 141WH 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 142WH Climate Change was necessary and hoped to see progress on that at Doha. Westminster Hall The outcome was a number of changes to the MRV framework to improve transparency and accountability. Energy efficiency is a subject close to the heart of my Thursday 18 April 2013 Committee in a number of contexts, and we recommended that the Government prioritise it as a mitigation strategy, using EU cohesion funds and EU emissions trading [MR ANDREW TURNER in the Chair] scheme credits to drive energy efficiency policies. The Government agreed with those recommendations, although they noted the need for a stricter cap or for structural UN Framework Convention on Climate reforms to achieve that with the EU ETS. I shall return Change to emissions trading in a moment. [Relevant documents: The road to UNFCCC COP 18 On the role of the UNFCCC, the Committee considers and beyond, Second Report of the Energy and Climate it the leading multilateral forum through which to combat Change Committee, HC 88, and the Government Response, climate change. The Government share that view. We HC 633.] should not allow the rather tortuous progress to be a Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting reason to despair. Alongside the international process, be now adjourned.—(Gregory Barker.) the bottom-up process should be give every possible encouragement. We increasingly see individual countries making national commitments. 1.45 pm Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con): I warmly welcome Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): The hon. Gentleman the opportunity to debate the UN framework convention has already mentioned GLOBE, but does he not agree on climate change process—a subject in which the Select that if GLOBE had not existed, the progress that has Committee on Energy and Climate Change takes a been made in countries such as Mexico and China close interest, and will go on doing so during 2014. Our might not have been achieved and that it is vital that we previous report on the subject was published in July continue to work at that level? He makes exactly point: 2012, and I will run through some of the recommendations. international co-ordination is important as a driver, but without national input we simply would not get In general terms, we attach importance to the UNFCCC international agreement. process. It is the international route for trying to reach agreement on how to tackle climate change. It is clearly— evidence shows this—a tortuous route, so while we Mr Yeo: I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. affirm our belief in its vital importance, we should not I am pleased that the Foreign and Commonwealth feel dismayed or frustrated by the lack of progress. Office is supporting GLOBE; it should continue to do There is a danger in thinking that unless we reach a so, because of the beneficial impact it has had. Interestingly, global agreement, nothing much will have come out of there is also some correlation between the location of this. I believe that the existence of the UNFCCC process the conference of the parties meetings and progress by is a valuable spur to countries doing things individually. individual countries. The progress made in Mexico and Many of the commitments that have been made on South Africa was encouraged by the fact that they emissions targets and the progress on achieving climate hosted COP meetings, and the selection of venues for change legislation around the world have resulted, at future COPs will have a bearing on further progress. least in part, from the fact that we have the parallel When South Korea was in the frame to host the COP process taking place—international negotiations—which last year, I was disappointed that it was not chosen. focuses the minds of individual Governments. South Korea is another high energy user with a rapidly growing economy, and it has shown a lot of interest in In that context, I commend the work of GLOBE wanting to address the need for low-carbon technology. International, with which many members of my Committee and several hon. Members present are closely engaged, We received evidence on emissions trading and the in helping to spread awareness of the benefits of climate desirability of a global cap-and-trade system, and I change legislation. As we speak, the Chinese version of think that the Government broadly share our view, but the latest GLOBE legislative study is being unveiled in we are all aware of the enormous practical obstacles. Beijing by some of our colleagues. Does my right hon. Nevertheless, I hope that we face something of a critical Friend the Minister want to intervene? moment in emissions trading, particularly after this week’s vote in the European Parliament. It is much to The Minister of State, Department of Energy and be regretted that the enormous impact of the recession Climate Change (Gregory Barker): No. on emissions in the EU—reducing them to well below the pathway that would have been realistically forecast five years ago—is not in any way recognised through Mr Yeo: I am sorry; the Minister was paying such tightening of the limits in phase 3. We have seen the close attention that I thought some gem—some pearl—must effect of that on the carbon price. Alongside that, be about to drop from his lips, but that will come later. however, we can take encouragement from the Let me deal with some of the key recommendations commencement of emissions trading in California at and the responses to and outcomes of the report—first, the start of this year, where there seems to be real on monitoring, reporting and verification. We recommended commitment from the state, and the governor in particular, that the Department of Energy and Climate Change to making it work, and from the emissions trading push for a single accounting regime to ensure effective pilots under way in China, which we will focus on in the MRV.DECC agreed that a common accounting framework second of the afternoon’s debates. 143WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 144WH Climate Change Climate Change [Mr Yeo] was £1 above EU ETS prices with respect to what was originally proposed in the consultative document on It is the view of the Committee, and my very strong which the new rates are based; was put into place at view, that what happened this week in the European £5 above EU ETS prices; and now, with the projections Parliament underlines the damage that the UK Treasury’s to 2015-16, is £12 above EU ETS prices? Does he have unilateral imposition of a floor price for carbon could any thoughts on that trajectory and the way it was laid do to some sections of British industry. That should out? now be seen and acknowledged for what it is: a straightforward tax, introduced by the Treasury for Mr Yeo: The hon. Gentleman makes a telling point. revenue-raising purposes. It will do nothing to reduce It is clear that, even in the Treasury, the floor price is carbon emissions; it might divert some emissions from simply seen as a way to extract revenue, but it has this country to the rest of the EU, and it might put chosen to do that in a way that is particularly damaging British business at a competitive disadvantage compared to some sections of British business. Incidentally, his with the EU, just for the Treasury to collect another few thoughtful intervention has given me time to remember billion pounds a year. If the Treasury says, “We’re going that, in opening, I should have drawn attention to my to have a tax,” that is fine, but do not dress it up as an entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests environmental measure, which, I am afraid, tends simply and declared an interest in a number of energy businesses. to discredit the concept of carbon pricing. I reiterate, as I have on previous occasions, that those interests were acquired long after my views on these Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I pay tribute to subjects were formed 20 years ago, when I had some the hon. Gentleman for the way has steered the Committee ministerial responsibly for the matter. in producing the two reports and for his remarks so far. I shall touch briefly on one or two other Does he agree that what has happened with the carbon recommendations. The Government agree with the price and the announcement in the Finance Bill about Committee that we should work with industrial sectors raising the carbon floor price will act as a direct subsidy and stakeholders to develop a sectoral trading scheme to nuclear production companies in this country, such between developed and developing nations. The Government as EDF, in a way that will distort the market? Like him, also accepted the Committee’s recommendation that the I support nuclear, but we must recognise that the market second commitment period of the Kyoto protocol should will be distorted by giving nuclear a substantial subsidy last eight years and include a review clause to allow for at the very time when the Government are attempting more ambitious emissions targets, if necessary. They the difficult process of negotiating a strike price with also agree that efforts should be focused on developing EDF over the future of energy costs in this country. the Durban platform, because countries such as Canada, Russia and Japan were unlikely to sign up to a second Mr Yeo: I certainly do not dissent from the hon. Kyoto period. Gentleman’s analysis of the effects. We are at a sensitive stage in the nuclear negotiations and this may be another I share the concern of some commentators that more unhelpful dimension. I would like to see a rational progress has not been made towards closing the emissions approach. There is an important role for nuclear, alongside gap. Without wishing to provoke my right hon. Friend a lot of other low-carbon technologies, but we need to the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) get it at the best value for money for electricity consumers into too much anger, I will quote Lord Stern, whose and the competitive position of British business. comments on it were apt. He said that “there has been, yet again, a very big mismatch between the scale David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I wish to and urgency of action required to effectively manage the huge follow up on the point made by the hon. Member for risks of climate change, and the political will and ambition that Brent North (Barry Gardiner). A subsidy for new nuclear has been displayed in Doha. Current commitments and pledges would be more defensible, but the issue is that it is a by countries to reduce emissions by 2020 are clearly not consistent with the goal of giving the world a reasonable chance of avoiding subsidy for existing nuclear, which makes no sense global warming of more than 2 centigrade degrees. We are headed whatever. I reiterate the point made by the Chairman of on current plans for likely increases of 3 centigrade degrees or the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for more”. South Suffolk (Mr Yeo): such a differential between us He has more to say, but I think I have perhaps said and the rest of the EU could wipe out large parts of the enough on that point. process industry in the north of England. It is not The Government also supported the Committee’s tenable—not at all. view that a target of a 30% emissions reduction by 2020 Mr Yeo: My hon. Friend is right about the difference should be set at EU level, and the view that that would between new and old nuclear, and I take his point. I be in the UK’s long-term economic, as well as reiterate that my Committee and I are wholly opposed environmental, interest. to the floor price for carbon, which is a tax. It is not a I will leave other members of the Committee to green measure, although it was introduced as one, and it address some of the report’s other recommendations, was never going to have that effect. I am a great supporter because I want to allow a little more time, if possible, of the concept of emissions trading and a great advocate for the second debate, which is on low-carbon links with of more urgent action to accelerate the introduction of China. The process that we consider in the report and low-carbon technology. The floor price for carbon will are debating this afternoon remains important, and, not do anything to achieve those objectives. frustrating though it is, I am glad that the Government continue to participate fully and constructively in it. Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Will the Chairman of the Committee reflect on the fact that David Mowat: My hon. Friend makes a point that I not only was a substantial floor price escalator effectively have been reflecting on. He says that his Committee is announced in the Finance Bill, but that that escalator of the view that a 30% cap is in the UK’s long-term 145WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 146WH Climate Change Climate Change economic interest. For my own education, will he tell We would not have done much for our competitive me the main thrust of the argument on how that long- position if we landed up completely dependent on fossil term interest will be met by that? fuel imports, the price of which would be completely outside our control, and even the supply of which might Mr Yeo: Gladly. I am pleased that my hon. Friend has not be wholly reliable. I point to the views of all sorts of raised that point. I was suggesting a 30% target for the businesses that are not green-dreaming tree huggers—some EU, rather than for just the UK. I believe it is highly are not even connected with the energy industry—but probable that global concern about climate change will which clearly feel that an energy mix involving a variety intensify substantially in the next 15 to 20 years, and of technologies is a better bet than complete reliance on that by the mid-2020s large areas of the globe will be fossil fuels. covered by emissions trading and have carbon pricing mechanisms. It is also likely that that will be supplemented, Dr Whitehead: Might the Chairman of the Committee in many countries, by carbon taxes. If that turns out to wish to consider a distinction between internal domestic be the case—of course, I cannot be sure it will—I prices in the US and its export prices? Might he also believe that countries that have moved more quickly reflect on the price of the most recent cargo of liquefied towards low-carbon transport systems and electricity natural gas from the US, and the extent to which it was generation, and energy-efficient low-carbon buildings or was not related to the overriding price of shale gas of all kinds, will have an economic advantage, as well as within the US? The extent to which the competitive their having done the right thing environmentally. The advantage of the UK may be exported is very much in probability is that in that situation the costs attached to doubt, and it is likely that world prices, not US domestic fossil fuel consumption will become very high. prices, will prevail. I entirely accept that if my expectation is wrong, and if concern about climate change decreases rather than Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): Order. Will Members increases, with the world being quite happy to burn on both sides of the Chamber ensure that interventions huge quantities of coal and gas, my judgment will turn are brief? out to have been wrong and a fairly small competitive disadvantage will have been suffered by countries that chose to diversify their energy mix in the way I suggest. Mr Yeo: The hon. Gentleman makes another telling point, which is that a US exporter of shale gas, or any There are also energy security reasons for not saying, other form of gas via LNG, will sell it in the market in “Let’s bet the farm on gas.” I look at what has happened which it can get the best price. It is likely, in my view, to gas prices in the past five or six years, the International that we will see regional gas pricing, with the US, and Energy Agency projections for gas consumption, perhaps north America generally, enjoying a very low particularly in Asia, and the possibility of planning price, western Europe enjoying perhaps a middle price difficulties with the uncontrolled roll-out of shale gas and Asia possibly an even higher price, depending on developments in this country, and I think that in policy how discoveries go. At any rate, there is absolutely no terms it is rash to believe, “We have a secure energy reason why the US should not sell its gas to the highest future by saying it’s all going to come from gas.” I bidder. Therefore, it will enjoy an even greater competitive strongly favour a diverse mix, with nuclear, low-carbon advantage if the rest of the world says, “Okay, let’s renewables and much more emphasis on energy all just rely on gas,” because the demand for gas will efficiency—a true “no regrets” policy. Countries adopting become greater and greater. that model are likely to be in a better position in the 2020s and might have a big competitive advantage. I will conclude my remarks rather than take any more interventions, because I am keen to hear what my David Mowat: I agree with what I think is the point colleagues have to say. that the Chairman of the Select Committee is making, which is that if the world continues to show great concern about climate change the first movers might 2.6 pm have an advantage. Does it not give him pause for thought, though, that the EU in particular now appears John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): It is a to be showing some reluctance on building in a persistent pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. competitive disadvantage to the United States? That I do not intend to take up too much time, but I was would be one interpretation of the vote this week. If fortunate to be the representative of the Select Committee that were to become more pervasive, it would create on Energy and Climate Change at COP 18, and I thank some issues with respect to my hon. Friend’s analysis. my colleagues for allowing me to do that. COP 18 was an interesting event, and I met the Mr Yeo: I do not want to get too distracted by that, Minister there, but for the next conference of the parties, but the terms of trade in the debate have clearly shifted his Department could look into the fact that I did not a lot in the past year or so. The two big factors are, first, have delegate status—I was just a visitor. I believe that I that the recession seems to be longer and worse that we was excluded from meetings that might have been of had thought—not just in this country, but across the some advantage to the Committee and of help to the EU, although perhaps for slightly different reasons, Government. I believe that the current Committee and and, secondly, the extent of the competitive advantage the one during the previous Parliament have been helpful that shale gas now gives the US. Despite all that, if we to both Governments. We might discuss and occasionally say, “Okay, that’s fine. Let’s not bother with nuclear or argue points, but in general terms there is no political low-carbon renewables, it’s all going to be gas,” we bias and we are all, as we and the Prime Minister would might find that we are buying gas expensively from a say, in it together. We should therefore point out the variety of places, which might even include America. problems. 147WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 148WH Climate Change Climate Change Barry Gardiner: That point is important. Many national GLOBE hopes that countries such as Mexico and delegations include legislators who are not bearers of Brazil will sign up to more on climate change; I think ministerial office or part of the Executive. I believe that that Mexico will—it has done so—and I hope that civil society representatives from the UK were given other countries will, too. The one country not mentioned delegate status at Doha. The Government have, in principle, by the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) was recognised the importance of reaching out and of there the United States. It has not signed up to anything, but I being other avenues and channels of communication at must say that some of the work done there is way the COP.Certainly from the point of view of GLOBE— beyond much that we have done. The Select Committee recently went to California, which is still ahead of us in Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): Order. That is this kind of thing. People there tell us that we are doing enough, Mr Gardiner. a great job, and they look to us; yet what they are doing on efficiency levels and such matters is way beyond John Robertson: I totally agree with my hon. Friend’s what we have done until now. We will get better, however, point. What he says would have been helpful on occasion. and we will do it. Some of the delegations that I met had made an assumption I believe that, with the support of the Select Committee that I would be at a subsequent meeting, believing that and my party—I look forward to the speech of my hon. it was important that Britain took a lead, but I could Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana not be there. Not only would my being there have been Berger)—we can ensure that this country is still one of helpful for the Select Committee; it would have been the leaders. In years to come, we will think of Tony helpful for Parliament, in effect, to be represented by a Blair as the man who started it all off in relation to member of the Committee. That is something to consider bringing energy and climate change into the political for the future. arena. Mexico has been mentioned. Along with some of the other countries, Mexico is really taking on board the 2.13 pm leadership that has been shown by this country. I met a Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): It is number of Mexican delegates and people who told me a great pleasure to participate in this debate under your that they were trying to emulate what we did here some chairmanship, Mr Turner. Like the Chair of the Energy years ago, going down the route of a Bill that would and Climate Change Committee, my hon. Friend the give them an energy and climate change policy written Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), I must draw in statute. They were impressed by what we had done, to the Chamber’s attention to my entry in the Register such an extent that I have since met more of them, with of Members’ Financial Interests—not that I am aware my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy of any way in which the outcome of this debate or the Corbyn), who is well known in Mexican circles. I met issues raised in it could affect my well-being through their energy and climate change MPs when they were those interests. here, and saw how important the subject was to them. I admit that I was not a member of the Select If a country such as Mexico, which is an emerging Committee when it drew up the two reports that we are nation, can take that subject on board, perhaps there is considering, so I cannot claim credit for them or share hope for some of the countries—Brazil, and even China in any blame. I put myself forward for the Committee for that matter—that we might say have not been helpful precisely because I was concerned about the rather in promoting climate change properly. However, we are over-cosy relationship between it and the Government, all talking, which is a good thing, but talk is cheap and which has allowed them both, and the whole intellectual we must ensure that we get some kind of development establishment in this country, to live in a dream world from it. on energy and climate change issues. Mercifully, through I have noticed that some countries—particularly the operation of a secret ballot, I was elected to the developing nations, although not Mexico in this case—still Committee. harbour ill will towards us, the Americans and any Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make others who have done the things that we are telling them mad. One of the early signs of madness is an indulgence not to do. I have pointed out to them that it is important in compulsive displacement activity, which could not be to look at history, from which we can learn for the a better description of the whole COP process. Tens of future. There has always been a nation or some kind of thousands of people are displaced across the globe to empire leading the way in development. In the UK, that an environment where they are cut off from reality and happened during the industrial revolution, which I do the rest of the world, where they can indulge themselves not think we should apologise for, because it was an in demonstrating their lack of realism and reality, and evolutionary step between what went before and what where the original objective of obtaining a legally binding came after. We have moved on from there, and the next agreement between nations to reduce worldwide emissions evolutionary step is to start to look after our climate. I has itself been displaced by the alternative objective of believe that, with the work that can be done and with reaching an agreement to meet again—and to agree to cross-Bench co-operation, we can do that and go forwards. reach an agreement at some distant future time. That is GLOBE was very helpful, as was my hon. Friend the displacement activity on a massive scale, and it involves Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), in setting it a massive degree of hypocrisy, given the huge emissions up for me to go to COP 18, because I had never been to incurred by these eco-warriors as they swan across the anything like it. What should also be taken on board globe in jets and hire fleets of limousines, so emitting before we send someone else is the need to ensure that more CO2 than a small African country. they know what will happen when they get there and The aim of displacement activity is of course to avoid who to contact. Being a delegate would of course make facing up to reality, so I will just point out a few facts a big difference. that have not found their way into the report or into 149WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 150WH Climate Change Climate Change discussions of such matters, but seem to me to be rather expensive, as is the case with solar, but more like 20 times pertinent. The original aim of the Kyoto protocol and as expensive if it is stored in batteries. If someone could the agreement in 1992 was to reduce emissions by the develop storage for renewables, that would be wonderful; contracting parties by 5% by now—or by last year, but I would be grateful to him and he would be a great world emissions have actually gone up by nearer 50%. benefactor to humanity. However, I do not think that By happy chance, the rise in the world temperature over my right hon. Friend knows of such an invention. that period was much less than anticipated, despite the fact that the supposed cause of that rise in temperature Gregory Barker: My right hon. Friend is comparing was even greater and more powerful than anticipated. two completely different things. He is talking about Since the Kyoto agreement was signed, Canada, Japan industrial-scale storage. As the hon. Member for Liverpool, and Russia have resiled from it. Far from making progress Wavertree (Luciana Berger) said, the reality in the in getting countries to sign up, we have lost three very developing world is that most people require very small important world players. The US will not sign up to amounts of energy. Typically, they need it to use a Kyoto or its successor, or to any legally binding agreement, laptop, a phone and possibly a refrigerator. Battery as long as developing countries are allowed to continue storage is not only viable, but happening at scale. There to increase their emissions unconstrained. It was not are nearly 500 million people in India off the grid, and President Bush who prevented America signing up, but hundreds of millions of people in Africa. the Senate. Senators refused to sign up to Kyoto by 98 votes to zero. Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): Order. I have two That situation has not changed since President Obama’s points. First, the intervention was too long. Secondly, election: there is no chance of America signing up to Mr Lilley needs to bring his remarks closer to the legally binding restraints on its emissions as long as subject. developing countries are not also bound by them. But the developing countries want to grow, and I want them Mr Lilley: I am merely explaining why the COP to grow. I do not like seeing hundreds of millions of my process is completely ridiculous and will not result in fellow human beings wallowing in misery and living any agreement. We have this unrealistic agreement between lives that are stunted relative to what their material the two Front-Bench speakers that the matter will be living standards might be if they achieved economic solved by installing a few wind turbines and solar growth. But growth requires energy—it is almost panels in villages in Tanzania. India and China, in synonymous with the rise in the use of energy—and the which effectively half the world’s population live, are growth in energy use needed to raise their living standards industrialising. They are industrialising not by building will absorb much of their capacity to invest and much a few windmills and solar panels, but by building nuclear— of the capital available for them to invest in future sometimes, but that is very expensive—coal above all decades. and gas where they have it. Of course they will sometimes use renewables where it is appropriate and where an Fossil fuels are the cheapest form of energy. Renewables area is a long way from the grid, but let us not kid cost two or more times as much as fossil fuels to ourselves that because we have seen one windmill in produce a given amount of energy. If developing countries Africa, the whole developing world will develop by are forced to use renewables, they could only afford less means of renewables. If the two Front-Bench speakers, than half as much energy as they would otherwise be who are united in their lunacy, would like to tell me that able to bring on stream. That means they will not use that is seriously their belief and that they think the renewables; they will continue to develop by exploiting developing countries will grow primarily by harnessing the use of fossil fuels. renewables, I will give way to them.

Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Gregory Barker rose— I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has had the chance to go to any developing countries, but I Dr Whitehead rose— had the opportunity to go to Tanzania last year and saw for myself at first hand how communities, which do not Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): Mr Lilley, it is your have access to any gas or electricity on grid, were choice as to who is to speak. Who do you wish to speak? successfully harnessing the power of the sun via solar panels to provide whole villages with energy. Mr Lilley: The Minister.

Mr Lilley: The hon. Lady may seriously believe in the Gregory Barker: I thank my right hon. Friend. The use of renewables in places where it is sensible to use key point here is that we are not comparing shale gas in them. If an area is a long way from the grid, it may be America with the opportunity for development in the sensible to use a windmill or a solar panel, even though developing world. We are comparing the marginal cost it will not provide light at night or electricity when the of a diesel generator for hundreds of millions of people wind is not blowing. in the developing world with a renewable alternative. In most cases, it is viable without any form of subsidy. Gregory Barker: Batteries. Mr Lilley: Well, that is fine. Let it go ahead. Mr Lilley: If my right hon. Friend, who is a Minister of this Government, thinks that it is economic at present David Mowat: I just wanted to put my tuppence-worth to store electricity in batteries, he is living in a dream into the example from Tanzania. If that were the way world. That means that it will be not two times as forward at scale, China would not be building 50 unabated expensive, as is the case with wind, or eight times as coal stations every year. That is what is happening, but 151WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 152WH Climate Change Climate Change [David Mowat] generate hydroelectric power and China has a huge investment programme in renewable energy. They know it does not mean that solar power cannot power laptops that they have a mix. The right hon. Gentleman seems in Tanzania. The proof is in the pudding. I want to go to be arguing that there should be no mix. back to the remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley). Where Mr Lilley: The Chinese, whom we will come on to in does he see nuclear? the next debate, are planning to produce, by 2030, 11% of their energy from renewables. The bulk of it will be Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): Order. Interventions hydroelectric, which is a conventional source of electricity; are too long. no one would argue against that. Where countries have hydro power and they can harness it, they should go Mr Lilley: I am grateful to hear that there is another ahead and do so. That has always been happening and voice of common sense in this Chamber. Where do I see it will happen anyway. It is happening regardless of nuclear? Unfortunately, it has become extremely expensive whether CO2 is a serious problem for them. Hon. Members but it is, none the less, a source of major power that is must recognise that the world is developing using fossil not dependent on the vagaries of the weather or the fact fuels. We can wish that that was not the case. We can that the sun goes in at night. finance great jamborees every year or two. We can all get together and pretend to ignore it, but as long as Dr Whitehead: For completeness, will the right hon. those in the developing world are free to exploit fossil Gentleman put on the record the extent to which he fuels and any renewables they find economic or choose accepts any externalities in the extraction, transportation to inflict on themselves, America will not sign up either. and use of fossil fuels, or does he think that they could If America, China, India, Canada, Russia and Japan be made even cheaper by having 12-year-olds dig them will not sign up, it seems slightly perverse of us to out of the ground with no safety rules whatever, no assume that by gathering together we are somehow transportation and no concerns? What are his particular going to overcome that resistance; we will not. parameters in terms of the comparisons he is making? Mr Yeo: For the sake of accuracy—I may have misheard my right hon. Friend—let me say that the target in Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry China is for 11.4% of its energy mix to come from but we must have brief interventions. That will get us non-fossil sources by 2015. That is in less than three back on to a swifter speech. years from now. I might have misheard my right hon. Friend, but I think that he mentioned a later date. May I Mr Lilley: I do not know why the hon. Gentleman also put it on the record that China’s explicit goal is to raises the issue of 12-year-olds being employed in any reduce substantially the use of coal as a proportion of particular industry; I am not in favour of that. Do I its total energy mix over the next two decades, and it is accept that there are externalities involved in the activities? already the world’s largest investor in renewable energy Yes I do, and, for the sake of argument, I will accept all sources? the externalities that are attributed to CO2. I am simply pointing to the reality that India and China, with half Mr Lilley: I take all those points, and I probably did the population of the world, Africa, with a further give the wrong date for the Chinese. However, I remember major share of the world, and Latin America are going also seeing their figure for further ahead, which was not to develop by harnessing fossil fuels. We will not prevent much higher. There would be a large increase in the them from doing so unless we ourselves are prepared to amount of renewables, but not in the percentage of subsidise the difference between fossil fuels and the cost renewables, and still the vast bulk of their energy will of renewable alternatives. come from conventional sources. We can make ourselves feel better by bigging up in Mr Yeo rose— our mind the amount of renewables and by getting warm feelings about the sight of solar panels bringing Sir Malcolm Bruce: Will the right hon. Gentleman light to small villages in isolated parts of Africa. However, give way? if we seriously imagine that these great jamborees will result in an agreement by the countries in the developing Mr Lilley: I will do so in a moment. I do not believe world to constrain significantly their ability to grow by that this country, or Europe as a whole, can afford constraining their ability to use fossil fuels, we are living simultaneously to bear the costs of cutting its own in a dream world, and everything that has happened in emissions by 80% and the cost of the developing world’s this debate suggests that the majority of Members developing at the speed and pace they want to while we present for it are part of that dream. absorb the additional costs we would force them to David Mowat: I will make a quick intervention to incur if they did so using renewables instead of fossil point out that we are saying that fossil fuel usage is a fuels. It just will not happen. It cannot happen, and the developing world phenomenon—it is not. The EU is Government would not get re-elected if they proposed increasing its use of coal. Last year, the increase of coal to the British electorate that we should incur that burden. use in the EU was significant. For example, it is one of the reasons why Germany has much higher carbon Sir Malcolm Bruce: May I suggest that the right hon. usage than we do, both per head and per unit of GDP. Gentleman is advancing a false prospectus? No one is suggesting that developing countries should not use Mr Lilley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of fossil fuels. We are saying that they should use a sensible course, Germany is moving away from renewables, if mix, and be encouraged to have access to renewables. one counts nuclear as a renewable. It is moving away That is why, for example, Ethiopia is building dams to from nuclear. It is planning to close down all its nuclear 153WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 154WH Climate Change Climate Change plants, and by and large that will mean replacing them extinctions. That is higher than in any other period in with fossil fuel plants instead. [Interruption.] Does the the whole of the fossil record. We are living in the midst hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) of that, and sometimes when living in the midst of want to intervene? things it is difficult to see the wood for the trees; but that is what is going on. The rate of extinctions that we are Dr Whitehead: I was just pointing out that the right experiencing is really quite remarkable. hon. Gentleman said that nuclear is a renewable. I recall the process of getting uranium out of the ground in Mr Lilley: Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that order to fuel nuclear reactors, and once it is out of the although extinctions are taking place, particularly localised ground it cannot be put back in again. Nuclear is not a extinctions, they are almost exclusively due to change in renewable. habitat as a result of economic development, not as a result of change in temperature? I believe that only one Mr Lilley: Okay. I take the hon. Gentleman’s pedantry species is known to have been rendered extinct by a in good heart, since I am a pedant myself. I should not change in temperature. have said “renewable”; I should have said “non-fossil fuel”. Nevertheless, Germany is moving away from its Barry Gardiner: No, I do not accept that at all—not dependence on nuclear, which is a non-fossil fuel, and it at all—because if the right hon. Gentleman looks at will rely more on fossil fuels, despite its already large marine life in the oceans, he will see what is happening commitment to solar and wind. in tropical coral reefs because of the changes in temperature At this point, Mr Turner, to avoid yet more interventions, in the oceans. Whole ecosystems are quite simply being which might incur your wrath, and further replies to destroyed by the changes in temperature in the oceans. them from me, which might be too long, I will leave Westminster Hall to those who wish to indulge their Mr Lilley: The hon. Gentleman said that we were fantasies in public, so that they can have their say. living through the biggest extinction since perhaps the Palaeozoic era, and he implied that that was through climate change, but he has been unable to cite a single 2.32 pm species that has been rendered extinct through climate change. I invite him to do so, or to give me a source Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Mr Turner, it is where I could find that information. a great pleasure to speak in this debate under your chairmanship. I should declare my interests, such as Luciana Berger rose— they are. They are non-pecuniary, but I am the chairman of the board of GLOBE International, which has already Barry Gardiner: I give way to my hon. Friend. been referenced in this debate. There is one thing at least on which I agree with the Luciana Berger: I thank my hon. Friend for giving right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), way. I was able to do some research on my iPad during and that is that those whom the gods wish to destroy those interventions, and I was able to identify just one they first make mad. I wonder whether he would agree such species—the Ecuadorian harlequin frog. with me on another epithet, or epigram: that just as the stone age did not end because of a lack of stone, so the Mr Lilley: That is the one that I was referring to—I oil age will not end because of a shortage of oil. But said there was one. while we have many fossil fuel resources left in the world that we are able to mine and access, and which countries Luciana Berger: Forgive me. Well, I just found that are seeking ever more to discover the resources to dig or first one; I will endeavour to find some more species pump up and use, none the less there will be a time, I during the course of our debate. That was the first one think, when we realise that the effects of doing so are that came up in my Google search. such that we have to desist. I will focus my remarks more clearly on the UNFCCC Barry Gardiner: I think that the right hon. Member itself and the process of the UNFCCC. I begin by for Hitchin and Harpenden will not dispute the fact outlining why a change in climate should matter at that we are living through the greatest period of extinctions all. The UNFCCC is the United Nations framework that has been known in the fossil record; he has not convention on climate change and the world has occupied disputed that. What he has sought to dispute is whether itself with this problem of climate change for a very it is in any way linked to a change in climate, and long time now; why should we? It is certainly the most therefore whether it is in any way linked to the rise in the complex and intractable question of justice that the use of fossil fuels. I think that if he looks at the way in world has ever seen, in that it is not simply about justice which species are migrating—he talked about a loss of between peoples separated by geography and wealth habitat, but the reason that there is a loss of habitat in but about justice between peoples separated in time, many parts of the world is, of course, because of the across the generations. It has proved a singularly intractable change in climate, which has actually destroyed the problem to reconcile those competing interests. habitat that used to be there. So I do not think that he Why does a change in climate matter? In and of itself can separate out, in the way that he seeks to, the effects it should not, were it not for the fact that species— of climate change from the effects of habitat destruction. biodiversity—find it difficult to keep pace with the rate To do so is precisely to ignore what is going on. of climate change. What we have seen is a change in the We have to understand that 50% of the GDP of the rate of extinctions in the modern era that has gathered poorest people in the world is dependent upon their pace to such an extent that we now have, in comparison immediate environment, and it is that immediate with the fossil record, a 1,000% increase in the rate of environment that is under such significant threat. In 155WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 156WH Climate Change Climate Change [Barry Gardiner] understand that this is genuinely a boat in which we all either sink or float, we will not arrive at a resolution parts of Africa, we have seen whole habitats destroyed. that is fair and has any chance of success. I sometimes wonder why we spend millions of pounds protecting our vessels as they pass the coasts of Ethiopia David Mowat: I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s and Somalia but never give a thought as to why the analysis, particularly in respect of the national point pirates that we are protecting them from are there in the and Russia. Some countries—how can I put this?—might first place. Of course, they are there in large part because benefit from climate change, including Russia, because of the desertification that has taken place in that part of there is a lot of tundra there. I wonder whether COP Africa—because of the loss of agriculture and of economic might look at the possibility of globally taking advantage opportunities there. Not to link what is happening with of that phenomenon, given that my right hon. Friend climate change to the sustainable development goals the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) would be a serious error indeed. may be right in saying that we are not going to stop coal Let us consider the Durban platform for enhanced being burned at the present rate. action that has been established, and let us look at the way in which, by 2015, we are to try and arrive at an Barry Gardiner: The hon. Gentleman makes an agreement between countries as to what will happen in important point. I do point out that he has conceded 2020 in respect of the commitments made there. Many that climate change is real, and that it will have a hon. Members have talked of the difficulty in securing differential effect in different parts of the globe. It is those commitments and the difficulty of some countries difficult to predict what that differential effect will be, agreeing their programme of action without certainty but one of the core predictions is that there is every and knowledge of what other countries are prepared to expectation that parts of Russia that are now tundra do. Russia, Canada and Japan have been mentioned as and unfarmable will gradually be released as good examples. These are extremely difficult negotiations agricultural land. Therefore, from the Russian point of because, as the Committee’s report acknowledges, every view, climate change, if and when it happens, will not be country will act in its own national interest. During the a significant problem. However, the problem is that negotiations, we have been true to form and have very with the release of that land into farmable condition, a often acted in our national interest as well. lot of methane will be released into the atmosphere, I would challenge the Minister on some of the positions which will turbo-charge the process. But the hon. Gentleman that our country has adopted in the negotiations. Let us is right to mention that. consider the position that we have adopted with respect The international negotiations must take on board to Russia. We have been saying, “With all the hot air the fact that although there are real downsides for some that they had after the demise of the Soviet Union, they economies—indeed, small island states are in danger have arrived in a much more fortunate position, and we not just of their economy, but their whole territory want now to discount that.” But in that negotiation any going down the pan—countries such as Canada and Russian with common sense would say simply, “Look, Russia may make substantial economic gains through our economy suffered an enormous transition—an this process. That is why we cannot simply go into the enormous hit on our domestic economy. We’ve paid the negotiations with the viewpoint that climate change is a price for being in the position that we are now in, with universal disaster and we must stop it at all costs. We that hot air, with those emissions credits.” have to understand that some people expect to gain and The original intention of Kyoto was simply that we some expect to lose. That makes these negotiations all should see the reduction below 1990 levels. Perhaps due the more intractable, and makes it more difficult to get a to the collapse of the old Soviet economy, Russia has just resolution. I absolutely endorse the hon. Gentleman’s achieved that reduction, but it has not achieved it point. without substantial cost. That is just one example of the way in which the negotiations that we believe we are David Mowat: It might be a more fertile route for the entering into in good faith may be perceived by the world to look at that interaction between those that are other side as negotiations that are not being conducted gaining and losing, rather than trying to stop what in good faith. Sometimes we have to look much more would appear to be the unstoppable, in terms of coal carefully at the principles of equity when we consider burning at scale. how one reaches a just settlement in this area. For example, in discussions that are often entered Barry Gardiner: The negotiations absolutely have to into about what is happening in China and India—we consider where the balance of costs and benefit lies and will debate China more specifically later—we often say, take that into account. Without doing that, we will not “These are the emerging economies and emerging powers get anywhere; I agree. and, of course, China is building so many more coal-fired The funding of the climate negotiations process is power stations and its emissions are growing at a critical. I congratulate the Government on the way in tremendous rate.” Yet somebody in India will say, “Yes, which our country has stepped up to the plate with the but let’s look at our population and let’s see what our short-term funding committed in 2009 through to 2012. emissions per capita are.” They will say that, in India, They have delivered that, if not 100%—it may be 100%— the emissions are approximately 2 tonnes per capita, then pretty damn close to 99%. They have not just whereas in this country they are well into double figures committed and delivered the funding, but ensured that and in America it is probably 10 times that which the 50% of it went to adaptation. Many countries that average Indian would expend. promised such start-up funding committed themselves We have all entered into the negotiations at the UNFCCC to the principle of at least 50% going to adaptation but from a position of national self-interest. Unless we then did not deliver. It is absolutely vital that such 157WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 158WH Climate Change Climate Change commitments are honoured, because they are the ones will be enabled, as part of the international negotiations, that build trust into the negotiation. When countries see to reduce really effectively the emissions from that most other nations commit funds and then deliver them in important sector. the way that has been promised, it builds trust into the Colleagues are keen to move on to the second part of whole process. our debate, so I will draw my remarks on the UNFCCC to a close. I believe that the process is worth while, but I When Christiana Figueres, the executive secretary of recognise that it is not simply the international negotiations the UNFCCC, came to London in January and spoke process, in which thousands of people come together in the Locarno suite of the Foreign and Commonwealth every year, that will resolve the matter; it is by detailed Office, she made it clear that the only way in which we work at national level, open to scrutiny by national would achieve success on the Durban platform and see Parliaments and enacted through national legislation, a resolution and a conclusion to the negotiations in that we shall build the trust in the international community 2015 was to build trust at national level. She made it that will enable the executives, through the UNFCCC, clear that any agreement in 2015 would as much reflect what was going on at the national level—the legislation to arrive at a negotiated agreement, we hope, in 2015. that was being passed and the regulations and policies that were being enacted by Governments—as it would [MR CLIVE BETTS in the Chair] define climate legislation into the future. 2.57 pm For many years, Governments across the world appeared to think that all we needed to do to solve the problem of Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I, climate was to get together and reach a legally binding too, will try to be brief, because I know that an important agreement. Well, that was always a chimera; it was debate on China and the low-carbon economy will never going to be the case because, no matter what follow. That debate may shed light on some of our Governments agree to, it must be brought back and interesting diversions in this debate. legislated on in their Parliaments. That legislation must Fundamentally, we have been invited this afternoon then be implemented. Funds have to be voted to ensure to justify why the COP process is important. There are that the legislation is implemented properly and fully, those who say that it is all a complete waste of time—we and the implementation must be monitored, audited will burn all the fossil fuel that we can get our hands and carried out. on—and ask why we are concerning ourselves with the process. Most simply, the Earth is very good at storing That is why I refer to the study launched by Christiana stuff and does not need over million of years to balance Figueres in the Locarno suite—the GLOBE International how it works as a planet. Humans, with the great gift of climate legislation study—which focuses on climate consciousness, are also very good at finding all that legislation enacted in 33 countries. The study sets out stuff, digging it up and burning it within a few hundred the progress that each country is making on enacting its years, compared with the millions of years that the own legislation and regulation, and that builds trust Earth has taken to store and balance it in the first place. into the whole system. Often countries ask, “Why should I assume that the right hon. Member for Hitchin and we act to the detriment of our own industry by enacting Harpenden (Mr Lilley) also agrees with this, but if, over climate legislation? It will put us at a disadvantage to the next 100 years or so, clever humans find and burn everyone else.” But actually, countries are not acting all the fossil fuel, the outlook for the world would be alone. Countries throughout the world are taking positive very poor indeed. steps to enact legislation on climate because they perceive The world simply cannot do that over the next 100 or the problem. Such a study is perhaps the best way 150 years. That seems to me to be a fairly self-evident to show the sceptics that their country is not alone, to fact, assuming that people agree that there is some build trust and enable the negotiations to proceed in relation between what we do—burning fossil fuels in the way alluded to by Christiana Figueres. particular, and human activity in general—and the state of the world’s atmosphere and the extent to which the Finally, since the Bali conference, REDD—reducing Earth will warm up as result. Someone who thinks that emissions from deforestation and forest degradation—and there is no connection whatever would presumably not REDD+ have been one of the most important ways of be concerned about finding all the fossil fuel in the advancing our aspirations for reducing emissions into world and burning it all. Someone who thinks that there the atmosphere. Emissions from deforestation and forest is a connection, and an urgent one, would presumably degradation amount to about 17% to 20% of emissions wish to do something about it fairly urgently. Since produced each year. I pay tribute to legislators in Brazil climate change and, in particular, the results of the for the work that they have recently concluded on the burning of fossil fuels know no boundaries, the only forest code, and for reducing their own emissions so way that we can do something about the situation over substantially over the past three years. I pay particular the medium term is through interaction and discussion tribute to legislators in Mexico, who passed important between states throughout the world about achieving an REDD+ legislation to enable REDD funding to come outcome that is not as disastrous as it would be if every through. country went its own way individually. We often find that, in countries that are major forested That seems to be the basic point about the COP domains, property rights are very difficult to establish process, and although I shall come to a caveat in a because there are different layers and levels of rights, moment, that cannot be replicated by people doing such as customary use rights, that sometimes make it what they feel like individually in different countries impossible to disentangle who has the right to operate, around the world, partly for the reasons that have been to log or to use a piece of land in a particular way. By rehearsed this afternoon: people want to go their own teasing those out and codifying all the issues, REDD+ way in how to develop their economies. Realising the 159WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 160WH Climate Change Climate Change [Dr Alan Whitehead] what it did, as a result of an instrument in one country alone. That is my point, not how EDF will use the extent to which that is not an option for any of us over money. the next 100 years or so is part of the process of That is why the international COP process and, recognition that international agreements are important. contributing to it, joint targets backed up by individual Indeed, under certain circumstances some consequences country targets are important. My hon. Friend the have been turned back by international agreements. The Member for Brent North mentioned the extent to which, Montreal protocol and the action on chlorofluorocarbons almost under the radar internationally, countries are was a global agreement to the disadvantage of certain beginning to take the sort of action that we in this places resulting in a substantial change; what would country have already taken with climate change legislation. otherwise have been a difficult outcome for at least One of the ongoing processes recorded in the Select parts of our climate has apparently been substantially Committee report is that countries, even those that mitigated and possibly reversed. The COP process is might be advantaged by global warming, are undertaking important in that respect. their own climate change legislation. For the record, one of the immediate consequences It is vital the UK does everything that it can over the of deciding to go off in a different direction can be seen next few years to support countries to develop their in the 2013 Budget: the carbon floor price is a unilateral own climate change targets and to join us in ours, so tax introduced in the UK, the operation of which does that progress towards a level playing field can be not directly save a single tonne of carbon. It was supposed considerably advantaged as the negotiations take place. to be introduced on the basis of a £1 rider on the EU One thing that we should resolve today not to do is to ETS—an inter-country co-operation on carbon cap indulge in any tinkering with our climate change targets, and trade—but that turned into a £4.94 rider on the as we try to move towards international agreement on ETS when it comes in this year. From next year, it will other people’s climate change targets, given that that be £9.55 on top and, in 2015, £18.08 on top, compared would send a very bad signal indeed to other countries, with what would have been £7.28 and £9.86, respectively, some of which are beginning to take their climate under the original proposals. That is not mission creep change legislation directly from what we have done in but mission gallop, and often in an entirely different the UK. direction. The result is an £18 differential between a power station introducing energy to the UK from the That is a call not for action, but for us to defend what Netherlands and a power station producing energy this country has done. Our actions have not just made a within the UK. A power station developer might now contribution to what will subsequently be the international think, “I will go and put one up in The Hague now level playing field, but are a beacon that shows how because, for my power station developments, that will these things can be done. Our duty now is not just to save me £18 per tonne of CO2 over the next few years.” say, “We’ve done it, so you should do it, too,” but to As my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North stick with what we have done and to ensure that the (Barry Gardiner) outlined, the free money—not for process that we are working to is not revised way, new nuclear, but for existing nuclear—turns out to be wished away, downgraded or put in a cupboard by not only for all the nuclear power stations in place, but others, while some take what we consider a more appropriate for the two extensions agreed last year and this year. direction on international agreements. Calculations based on what the carbon floor price Of course, there is a whole range of other issues would have been when it was first introduced make that regarding COP 18 and beyond, but what I have just £44 billion over the life of the extensions for the four described is among the important emerging issues; indeed, power stations; the new figures are about 30% more. it featured substantially at the Doha discussions. It may Frankly, I will be surprised if EDF does not go ahead be a mark of our contribution over future years that the with a new power station on the back of that free steps that I have described are among those that we take money, although I know those are two slightly different to move discussions forward in a way that produces things. My point is about the distorting effects of a international agreements, which are vital to any hope of one-country go at such a scheme, even if that was the ensuring that our planet lasts in a fit state for the next intention, rather than its being a dash for money by few hundred years. Of course, it will last, but perhaps the Treasury. That illustrates, as other things might not not in a fit state for us, although it might be in a fit state immediately, how important it is to go ahead with for somebody else. Whether our planet will be in a fit international negotiations and to get collective action. state for us over the next few hundred years, however, Every one would then be in the same place and on the will be very much determined by whether people from same level playing field. around the world gather to discuss these issues. The issue is whether we make the planet fit for purpose, fit David Mowat: The hon. Gentleman makes the argument for us and fit for the future; that is what we have to for the money being used as a cross-subsidy.Unfortunately, concentrate our minds on. EDF will not look at it that way; I would be happier if it did, because that would mean getting Hinkley Point, but I am concerned that that will not happen. 3.9 pm Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Dr Whitehead: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, right. EDF will probably use the money to shore up its Mr Betts. I thank the Chair of the Committee, the hon. dodgy international finances, rather than to develop Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), for the way he new nuclear power stations. Nevertheless, the effect is introduced the debate and congratulate the Committee there: a substantial subsidy, merely for continuing to do on producing its report. 161WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 162WH Climate Change Climate Change We have heard some insightful speeches from my that as well, yet proposals to introduce a 30% target hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow North West have come before the EU Parliament twice in the past (John Robertson), for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) two years, and have twice been defeated because and for Brent North (Barry Gardiner). Members will Conservative MEPs voted against them. I hope that the not be surprised to hear that I do not necessarily share Minister might share with us his thoughts on why they the views of the right hon. Member for Hitchin and did that, or, more to the point, why the Prime Minster Harpenden (Mr Lilley). did not do anything to stop them. As the Chair of the Committee said, events have Will the Minister also tell us why this week moved on somewhat since the report was produced, not 21 Conservative MEPs voted against attempts to rescue least because COP 18 has taken place. During the the EU ETS by back-loading 900 million carbon allowances conference, four Gulf states—Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain that were due to be auctioned later this year? That was and the United Arab Emirates—announced that they despite the fact that the Secretary of State told the were ready to submit emission reduction plans to the Select Committee: UNFCCC. I listened to what the right hon. Gentleman “We have the proposal for back-loading on the table. We do said about the developing world, but I am not sure not think it is ambitious enough. We think we want to see both whether he knows that, last month, the group of 49 back-loading and cancelling, because that could make a significant least developed countries also announced they are now difference to increasing EU ambition almost in one leap.” prepared to commit themselves to binding cuts in their Given that the Secretary of State clearly stated that the greenhouse gas emissions. Government support back-loading, why did Conservative While some progress has been made, many challenges MEPs actively scupper the proposals? remain. Canada, Japan and Russia have all said they The UK is responsible for 2% of the world’s carbon will not be part of the extension of the Kyoto protocol, emissions. We have a responsibility to reduce them, for and yesterday the International Energy Agency warned all manner of reasons, but on our own we cannot solve that the continued global reliance on coal and the rapid the problem of global climate change. Part of the development of emerging economies meant that despite leadership role that we can play in international climate “a boom in renewable energy over the last decade, the average negotiations will be as part of an EU bloc, so why are unit of energy produced today is basically as dirty as it was the Minister and the Prime Minister allowing the UK’s 20 years ago.” credibility to be undermined by Conservative MEPs? I In some ways, that is depressingly familiar, but it reinforces know from previous exchanges on such matters that the the point that any solution to climate change requires a Minister has a habit of dismissing anything that he does global agreement that limits carbon emissions, as well not want to hear, or that highlights the shortcomings of as a rapid expansion of low-carbon energy generation. the Government, as partisan rhetoric, but it is not In that context, the main consensus on the proceedings partisan to point out that the view of the UK as a at Doha was that they were a modest step forward. climate change leader on the international stage is diminishing. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. North West said during the Committee’s hearing following Doha, the message that he heard from our European 3.22 pm partners was that they felt the UK was backing off from the leadership it had shown in the past. On resuming— In an ideal world, between now and 2015 the Prime Luciana Berger: During the Committee’s special evidence Minster would go around Europe and the rest of the sitting following the conference, my hon. Friend the world championing Britain’s low-carbon progress, but Member for Glasgow North West commented: we know that he cannot do that. He can try, and I hope “If it was a road map, the car is still on the road”. he will. He can go to China, the United States and our European neighbours, and I am sure they will listen There was not the forward movement we hoped for. politely to his spiel about how the Government are the Only one country—the Dominican Republic—signed greenest Government ever, and nod as he tells them how up to new carbon emission targets. Although I welcome personally committed he is to combating climate change. the fact that four Gulf states made a commitment to I am equally sure that they will then disregard what he submit reduction plans, that has yet to happen. The says, because they read newspapers, too, and they know most important thing was that the conference agreed an the Government’s record as well as we do. They know extension of the Kyoto protocol and re-established a that under this Government investment in renewable timetable for agreeing a global deal in 2015. energy has halved, and that the Prime Minister barely As to the substance of the report, Labour Front Benchers talks about climate change any more—he has not yet support many of the Committee’s recommendations. attended an international conference on the matter, and We have supported and will continue to support the cannot get his own MEPs to support an increase in Government’s efforts to secure a global, legally binding carbon reduction, let alone ask them to do more. No framework to cut CO2 emissions. We agree with the matter what the Prime Minster says, he cannot change Committee and the Government that the UNFCCC is the reality. the forum that offers the best opportunity for securing Things do not have to stay that way, however. The such an agreement, and that there is a need for a single Government should act now to improve their record transparent accounting regime, but this is the point at and give the UK a stronger negotiating position in the which I want to hold the Government to account. run-up to 2015. We also support an EU target of a 30% reduction in carbon emissions by 2020. Anyone reading the David Mowat: From the tone of the hon. Lady’s Government’s response to the Committee’s report would remarks it would seem as if the UK were among the be led to believe that the Conservative party supports higher producers of carbon in the EU, whereas, according 163WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 164WH Climate Change Climate Change [David Mowat] Secondly, the Prime Minister should get a grip on his MEPs and force them to vote in the European Parliament to EU figures, we produce 8.8 tonnes per capita. That is in accordance with the UK Government’s position. among the lowest in the EU and 30% lower than That is the only way to regain our lost credibility in the countries such as Germany, Holland, Ireland and Poland. eyes of our EU neighbours. Thirdly, the UK should I find her remarks odd in that context. renew its role as an international political leader on climate change. Luciana Berger: I am not sure how that point relates to mine about our responsibility to continue in our David Mowat: The hon. Lady refers to lack of credibility leadership role on the international stage—a role for with our EU neighbours. I could accept that if our which, in the past, we have been held in high esteem and carbon emissions were higher than those of our EU taken seriously—and about remarks recorded in the neighbours, but, with the exception of France, they are report that show a diminishing in our standing, and significantly lower. Surely actions drive the issue, not therefore our effectiveness, on that international stage. words. As I said, 2% of global emissions come from the UK. We have a responsibility, domestically, to reduce them, Luciana Berger: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his but we cannot solve the problem alone. intervention. I referred first and foremost to the actions John Robertson: Does my hon. Friend agree that of Conservative MEPs in the European Parliament who leadership from this country is important in the international have twice contradicted and been in conflict with British arena, mainly because we were the country that set the Government policy. There has been a reduction in our pace, with the first ever Bill that had climate change emissions, but we must ensure that we meet our ambitious in it? emissions reduction target in the long term. We have made significant progress in the short term, but we must Luciana Berger: We were, proudly, the first country in make significant investment in the short and medium the world to do that, when we passed the Climate term to ensure that we meet the long-term targets. Change Act 2008, with a view to reducing our emissions This month, Lord Stern, author of the world famous by 2015 in relation to 1990 levels. The Act is held in high Stern report, said that the only thing missing in the regard in countries that I have visited, but legislation is efforts to tackle climate change “is the political will”. not enough if it is not acted on and if the Government’s There are signs that that is beginning to change. In his actions do not match it. That is why it is important that second inaugural address, President Obama reaffirmed the Government do all they can to live up to their his commitment to tackling climate change. Even emerging ambition to be the greenest Government ever, and not economies such as China—we will discuss this in more slip behind. Then they would be held in high esteem on detail in our next debate—are making progress. the international stage. We must seize this opportunity for our planet and for Mr Lilley: The hon. Lady’s party has abandoned the jobs and growth that it will create. It is time for unilateralism in nuclear weapons on the ground that Minsters, especially the Prime Minister, to stop talking setting an example would not stop other countries about showing leadership and get on and do it. I hope following a policy of obtaining nuclear weapons, so the Minister will take note of my suggestions, and I why does she favour unilateralism in this sphere and look forward to hearing his explanation of the vote by argue that inflicting pain and damage on the British his party’s MEPs this week. economy will encourage other countries to do likewise? Luciana Berger: I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman’s 3.33 pm comment. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Mr Lilley: It was a question, not a comment. Climate Change (Gregory Barker): I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden Luciana Berger: We were the first country to introduce (Mr Lilley) because I thought this might be a slightly a climate change Act, but other countries, such as dry debate with the usual suspects in violent agreement, Mexico, have followed suit, and many others are considering but it has been much more rigorous, thoughtful and how to reduce their carbon emissions. I agree with the lively. The real thanks for the debate must go to my hon. Chancellor’s comments back in 2007, when he said that Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), Chair investment in low carbon could go hand in hand with of the Select Committee. I thought at the outset that growth and support our economy. We have seen global this is a strange time in the calendar for a debate on the trade in low carbon surpass growth in all other fields. United Nations framework convention on climate change, Without domestic investment in low carbon in the UK, because the reality of seasonality in such matters is that our national growth figures last year would have been negotiators do not start to clear their throats and focus much worse. I believe the two go hand in hand. on COP until the second half of the year. The debate What should the Government do? First, they should has shown that there is a great deal to discuss, and some back the cross-party amendment proposed by the Chair important points have come out. of the Select Committee and my hon. Friend the Member I do not share all the analysis of my hon. Friend the for Brent North, which would put an explicit target for Member for South Suffolk, particularly of the carbon decarbonising the UK energy sector by 2030 in the floor price, but I share his view and take on board some Energy Bill. That would give businesses the confidence of the criticism from the shadow Minister about the and certainty they are crying out for to invest in low-carbon need for a strong emissions trading scheme and a uniform and renewable generation, and would signal to other price signal on carbon throughout the European Union. nations that we were serious about meeting our climate It would negate the need for a carbon floor price here change targets and moving to a low-carbon economy. in the UK and for a unilateral policy. We consider the 165WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 166WH Climate Change Climate Change impact on British industry’s competitiveness in every in the short term and not listening to the crowd can policy. We take that extremely seriously, and that is why often not only be the sensible and right thing to do, but the Government broke with previous policy and introduced pay dividends in the long term. a substantial package of measures to help energy-intensive On the issue of Lady Thatcher, perhaps because of industries to deal with the cost impact on their businesses the week of that extraordinary and very moving funeral, of supporting renewables. it is worth remembering that it was Mrs Thatcher, as she The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John was then—a scientist by training and a Conservative by Robertson) made a sensible speech, and I listened carefully conviction—who more than any other world leader to his points about members of the Select Committee acted to put climate change on the international agenda. and GLOBE attending COP last year and before then. At the Royal Society, of which she was a fellow—one of When I first attended as a Minister, I was struck by the the very small band of Conservative MP scientists—she lack of support, hospitality and information-sharing said: with parliamentarians at those important negotiations. “For generations, we have assumed that the efforts of mankind In the past couple of years, I have tried to go out of my would leave the fundamental equilibrium of the world’s systems way to make parliamentarians feel more part of team and atmosphere stable. But it is possible that with all these GB and certainly to make available more of the facilities. enormous changes—population, agricultural, use of fossil fuels— However, we can go further, and the hon. Gentleman is concentrated into such a short period of time, we have unwittingly right that we should co-ordinate more closely. I am begun a massive experiment with the system of this planet itself.” happy to consider whether there is a possibility of That was said in 1988, which shows extraordinary foresight. including them in the delegation. Pursuing that line of inquiry—Lady Thatcher did I am not making a commitment, because clearly not just make one speech on climate change, but several there is a difference between the Executive, who speak for important interventions—she went to the United Nations Her Majesty’s Government, and the House of Commons, the following year, in 1989, and crystallised her thinking. which challenges and scrutinises the Government. We More than 20 years later, what she said then is relevant would not expect it to have the Government’s role, but to this debate today, which was that the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Brent “the problem of global climate change is one that affects us all North (Barry Gardiner) are absolutely right that, because and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international of the reputation of GLOBE UK and Parliament, they level.” can bring a lot to the party. The issue does not involve Lady Thatcher’s actions led, in large part, to the Rio partisan politics, but there may be some subtleties about Earth summit of 1992 and to the UNFCCC process the legislature and the Executive. I will look at the that continues today. example that the hon. Members raised, and perhaps The process continues with all its imperfections. There return to it at a meeting here or in the Department. have been huge setbacks to date, not least at Copenhagen Perhaps the liveliest part of the debate was the speech in 2009. Having participated on behalf of the Government and interventions from my right hon. Friend the Member in three COPs now and their subsidiary meetings, I am for Hitchin and Harpenden. However, I fear that his under no illusions about the difficulty of negotiating a whole thesis was to drag us down into the climate and global treaty. However, I must tell the Chamber that energy politics of either/or when we are trying to develop, having returned last week from the Major Economies both here and globally, a pluralistic approach to energy. Forum on Energy and Climate, which meets during the We do not want either/or—fossil fuels or renewables—but year to consider action in the UNFCCC, I detect gas and wind. There will be a need for coal, but also for movements of the tectonic plates. I am not suggesting biomass. We want solar and hydro. We want large-scale that we are back to where we were in 2008, when we solutions deployed, as well as distributed generation. were all expecting global cap and trade, but we are We want industrial-scale generation and consumer seeing significant policy shifts—or at least the consideration generation. The 21st century calls for plurality of energy of policy shifts—between what is now termed the G2, supply, sources and technology, as opposed to a monolithic, or the key players, which are China and the USA. That one-size, fossil-fits-all model at home and abroad. That will not come overnight. A lot more is still to be will be good for security as well as value and climate. delivered, but we are seeing the signs of a recognition that they have to deal with the problem. It cannot be Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I am particularly ducked. interested in plurality and retaining public support. As Part of the reason why we are seeing politicians show, a political institution, Parliament can act only with at national leadership level, a willingness to return to public support. Does the Minister accept that, whatever the subject from which President Obama and the Chinese avenue the Government go down that impacts on our leadership were severely scorched—from the experience climate change policy, public support is important? We of Copenhagen in 2009—is that they are driven not have a disconnect growing between the people and only by the science, but by the economic reality of the the Government. Eventually, the Government’s policy imperative of diversifying energy sources away from will fail. fossil fuels and the recognition that the low-carbon goods and services sector globally is now worth more Gregory Barker: There is an important balance to be than $3 trillion, and is growing. struck. Of course, we are here to listen to and represent As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana our constituents, but we also have a leadership role. If Berger) pointed out, here in the UK, that is a sizable ever we were reminded of the importance of not bending factor in our growth, not only in terms of the narrow to public opinion in the short term, but aiming for the subsection of wind or subsidised renewable energy, as right long-term solution, it was this week, with the funeral the low-carbon sector runs much more broadly than of Lady Thatcher, who understood that being unpopular that and includes energy efficiency and a range of 167WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 168WH Climate Change Climate Change [Gregory Barker] of renewables is coming down. That is why India has launched its national solar mission and why it is investing innovation of products and services. That is why, this in wind. It is using the subsidy not simply to subsidise year, in recommitting the coalition to being the greenest consumers for a product that they cannot afford, but as Government ever, our Prime Minister said that not only an investment to bring down the cost to the point that are we in a global race, but the countries and economies they can afford it. When the counterfactual is distributed that will win the global race are those that are most diesel generators, often no subsidy at all is needed. efficient, and the most efficient will be those that drive Small-scale generation is not some piffling irrelevance, after energy efficiency and renewable energy. as my right hon. Friend seemed to imply, but it is the The Government’s clear ambition is to be a leader, reality for hundreds of millions of people in the developing not because we are on a moral mission at the expense of world. Hundreds of millions in Africa and about 400 million our national prospects, but because we recognise that it in India do not have access to the grid and are not likely is a massive economic opportunity. That is why we to get it any time soon. That is not just an economic think that we can seek not to disadvantage industry, but imperative; it is a moral one as well. They are not sitting to obtain a first-mover advantage. My right hon. Friend there wanting American-style fridge-freezers and huge the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden is out of step cars; for them, a luxury is a light at night or a laptop, so with the CBI and with a whole range of smaller businesses, that their kids can have an education or the most which make that argument strongly to the Government. rudimentary internet access. My right hon. Friend seems to think that the American Barry Gardiner: I wholeheartedly agree with the point economic model for shale gas is easily replicable in the that the Minister is making. Is he aware of research now rest of the world. It is not. If there is cheap gas to be being conducted that seems to suggest that countries had, we want it here, but it is not a binary world of that have legislated on climate are attracting most of the black and white choices between renewables and fossil international investment in this area? fuels. Gregory Barker: There is certainly a strong correlation Mr Lilley: I am overwhelmed by my right hon. Friend’s between regulatory certainty and investor certainty, and eloquence and verbosity. If he is saying that renewables lower cost of capital and the flowing of funds into those are more economic than fossil fuels, that is wonderful—let high-growth sectors. However, another canard that I us leave it to the market, and they will be adopted—but have to shoot down is the idea that we live in an era of he cannot simultaneously say that we ought to be cheap fossil fuels and expensive renewables. Certainly, subsidising them and that they are already as cheap as in the developing world, that is not true. I simply draw or cheaper than fossil fuels. the attention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden to the fact that, between 2011 and 2014, India will spend $14.267 billion subsidising Gregory Barker: Let me explain it one more time. kerosene, LPG and natural gas. That is one of the Fossil fuels have been around for centuries. They have largest elements in its national budget; it is largely had plenty of time to develop, as I think my right hon. responsible for the massive calls for structural reform in Friend will agree. I think that he may have worked, as I India, and it is seen as a brake on growth, because the have, in the oil and gas industry before coming into country is subsidising not renewables, but fossil fuels. It politics. The fact is that continuing to supply oil and is simply wrong to argue anything other, but nor is it an gas, LPG, petroleum and kerosene at scale to the Indian either/or choice. population requires a structural subsidy. We are not proposing a structural subsidy for renewables; subsidy Mr Lilley: The Minister is making an ineffective is justifiable only in any circumstance if there is a debating point. The Indians want their consumers to chance of getting to a non-subsidised point. We should have cheap fuel at the point of purchase. That may be a not subsidise any technology, whether renewable or misguided policy; it would not be one of the British fossil fuel, if all we are doing is pouring good money Government’s, but they choose to subsidise the products after bad. Subsidy for renewables can only be a short-term that are already the cheapest, not those that are initially or at best a medium-term strategy. the most expensive. If wind and sun were cheaper, perhaps they would subsidise them, but the Minister Barry Gardiner: Perhaps a common point of agreement cannot really pretend that wind is therefore cheaper, between the Minister, the right hon. Member for Hitchin because they are subsidising other things. and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) and myself is that any subsidy should be in place only because of a market Gregory Barker: No, but my right hon. Friend will failure. It is almost impossible to justify a subsidy on know that last year, the wholesale cost of gas rose by that basis to fossil fuels, which have had more than 35%. The cost of renewables is consistently coming enough time to establish themselves, whereas there is a down. He will know that the cost of solar crashed in the failure in the renewables market. We need to get renewables past two years, and that in many cases, with high to the point where they become a full-scale technology irradiation, such as in the developing world— and are able to operate at only marginal cost. I presume that the Minister, the right hon. Gentleman and I would Mr Lilley: The Minister is changing his argument. all agree that, at that point, subsidies should be withdrawn from them also. Gregory Barker: No, I am not. I am responding to my right hon. Friend’s point. The cost of fossil fuels in the Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman makes that developing world in the past two years has largely point far better than I did. I am not in favour of increased—in some cases, very substantially. The cost subsidies. They are a short-term means to an end, and 169WH UN Framework Convention on 18 APRIL 2013 UN Framework Convention on 170WH Climate Change Climate Change they certainly should not be in place if there is no in Russia might become usable as a result of climate prospect of getting rid of them in the longer term. I change. Should we not be thinking about that globally have tried hon. Members too much with my tirade on as well? that. Gregory Barker: We absolutely need to draw on such Let me turn to the COP negotiations, particularly the issues. One thing that we know for certain is that there is UK Government’s position and our priorities in respect no silver bullet for the agenda, and we cannot afford to of getting a global deal. Before I do so, I remind the ignore any strand. This week, I had hoped to be in House what we agreed in Doha. The 17th COP in Delhi for the clean energy ministerial, which considers a Durban in 2011 was another step in the development of range of technological solutions outside the constraints the UNFCCC, as was the Cancun conference the year of the UNFCCC negotiating process and, to my mind, before, but it was also a significant turning point. At is becoming an increasingly important forum for driving that point, all the countries committed to agree a new the technological innovation that we need and giving global deal by 2015 and increase efforts to reduce the agenda much more positive spin—forgive the word. emissions. Last year’s conference in Doha was the next People can see tangible things to invest in that are step to make progress on both those issues. themselves a natural good. Abatement falls into the The annual conferences should be seen not as major category of things that we need to do more to consider. breakthrough points, but as steps forward. Even the I do not suggest for a moment that the UNFCCC is a annual conference in 2015, where we hope to agree the universal panacea, nor that risks do not attach to it, but new global deal, will also include ongoing implementation it is our best hope of getting an overarching international decisions and perhaps further steps in the period to framework, which in turn is our best hope of driving 2020 on how the new global deal will be implemented in progress at a global level. detail. In that regard, our objectives at the Doha conference I said that the UK is an internationally renowned last year were largely achieved. We agreed a high-level leader in climate finance. In Doha, the UK demonstrated work plan to negotiate the new agreement by 2015, and that it was on track to deliver our £1.5 billion fast-start we rationalised the negotiation process to give space to pledge by the end of 2012, and as the hon. Member for deliver the work plan and take forward work to increase Brent North (Barry Gardiner) said, we have delivered the emissions reduction effort in the meantime. Hon. it. We also set out for our developing country partners Members might think that that sounds like process. It is. what the UK climate finance contribution will be in the To negotiate a new global deal with 194 countries in period to 2015. three years, the process must be right. It is a challenge, However, the key thing—we are good at this globally, but it is what we are doing. and we have a strong representation—is to make the We also made progress in further building and point that public finance can only go so far. We cannot implementing the key elements of the UNFCCC regime, push British taxpayers—or, come to that, any other including on climate finance. I must say to the hon. taxpayers—to keep increasing the amount of public Member for Liverpool, Wavertree that, far from trailing, contribution. Public finance, like subsidy, is there to the UK has a strong reputation on climate change, and catalyse private sector interventions. We are seeing increasing our international reputation as a leader is rising, particularly private sector interest in scaling up investments, so I in relation to private sector finance and investment, think there is a realistic possibility of meeting the adaptation, technology and the rules set to measure, pledge made at Copenhagen to mobilise the $100 billion report and verify countries’ emissions. Getting the process a year from developed economies into climate measures right and continually building elements are vital to in developing economies, not principally from the public tackling a global problem of the scale of climate change, sector or the pockets of taxpayers in developed economies, which is why each annual conference is a step forward. but from mobilised private sector sources that see the opportunity to make returns on attractive clean energy and climate mitigation solutions. On that point, I bring David Mowat: I am listening carefully to what the my speech to a close and thank the Committee for its Minister is saying about the COP process. One of my report. thoughts is that some of the time would be better spent considering abatement, as well as deals. We talked earlier 3.59 pm about the fact that many millions of square kilometres Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. 171WH 18 APRIL 2013 Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) 172WH

Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) If Britain is to capitalise on China’s low-carbon ambitions, we need to maintain our own commitment [Relevant documents: Low-Carbon Growth Links with to low-carbon growth, so that our companies can continue China, Third Report of the Energy and Climate Change to develop expertise and remain competitive internationally. Committee, HC 529, and the Government Response, HC 748.] We on the Committee were encouraged by the work 4.9 pm already being carried out by our officials in China, but we were disappointed that the intention is to cut the Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con): It is a great rather limited project funding there. The UK Government pleasure to introduce the debate under your chairmanship, need to set high-level objectives for co-operation with Mr Betts. The Committee welcomes the opportunity to China on low carbon. Decisions about the design and debate the report, and indeed the Government’s response. delivery of programmes are best made by staff on the The Committee has closely engaged with China over ground with an understanding of the Chinese context. I the past two or three years, and not only in writing the commend the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for report. We invited staff from the Guangdong province continuing its commitment in several Chinese cities, development and reform commission back to the UK notably Beijing, Guangzhou, Chongqing and Shanghai. and Europe to discuss the design of their emissions We have had contact with them all about climate change. trading pilot scheme. They visited the UK in May and I The Committee concluded that there is scope for followed up the Committee’s visit to China with two better alignment of funding opportunities and joint further visits of my own, in October and earlier this research ventures. We hope the Government will maximise month. their resources by looking for opportunities to provide The Committee believes that China’s response to the match funding alongside other organisations, including challenge of climate change is crucial for the whole research organisations. It is important that the UK world. Having been a regular visitor to China over the delivers on the promises it has already made, in particular past few years, I am extremely impressed and encouraged on carbon capture and storage. British expertise is not by the greater engagement it has shown over climate perhaps as widely recognised as it might be and I hope change and the efforts it is making to transform its that the Government will take a strategic approach to economy to a low-carbon one, though we all understand such projects. that it has a long way to go. The 12th five-year plan, In general terms, I am concerned that Britain risks which is soon to be at its midpoint, contains a wide losing out to other countries in its general efforts in range of measures designed to accelerate the introduction China. It is noticeable that Germany has made a strong of low-carbon technology. commitment of time and to visits at the highest possible With regard to the Committee’s key recommendations, level. Although there is a temporary obstacle to ministerial we argued that low-carbon leadership in the UK would visits from this country, I hope that it will be lifted encourage major emitters, such as China, to move down before long, because it is extremely important that they the low-carbon pathway. We also believe that low-carbon resume as quickly as possible. growth in China provides new markets and business It is noticeable how regular contact with key individuals opportunities for Britain. Every assistance should be is the route to closer relationships and greater influence offered to the Chinese to develop their emissions trading in China, perhaps to a greater extent than in other scheme. The type of system they are choosing is rather countries. It is not enough to go once or twice; we need more complex than the EU one, but they start with the to be seen on the ground regularly. I commend the work benefit of fewer, and perhaps less accurate, data than we of GLOBE International. Its engagement with the and most EU countries enjoyed at the outset of our EU-UK-China agenda is admirable, and I am glad to schemes, which are reasons to be more helpful, rather have had the opportunity from time to time to take than less. part. The UK should offer assistance on the measurement There are more detailed aspects of our report, but I of data and the design of a legal infrastructure for will not go into them all. We recommended that UK emissions trading—areas in which the UK has a lot of Trade & Investment co-ordinate a British sustainable expertise. That is applicable to China nationally and at buildings project, as a platform for engagement between a provincial and city level. UK companies and Chinese developers working on It is also possible to assist with the integration of low-carbon cities. The urbanisation programme in China, pilot emissions trading systems with broader national which is the biggest the world has ever seen, provides systems. Emissions trading will face a crisis as a result opportunities on that score. partly of the vote in the European Parliament, which The Committee was glad that the Government response was referred to in the previous debate, and partly of the agreed with our assessment that the Chinese low-carbon collapse of the price in the EU ETS, so it is worth growth model is central to the success of global efforts mentioning at this point the fact that the concept has to tackle climate change and that the UK should be an traction around the world. Not only is China seriously active and strategic leader of climate change policy piloting such schemes, but California’s state ETS started internationally, offering the chance to punch above operating in January this year, and it is clear that the our weight in influencing China. We were also glad to governor, his staff and the state are committed to its have the Government’s agreement that a successful success. and compatible ETS in China is key for global For the benefit of those readers of Hansard who will efforts. We welcome the Government’s support for our not read the previous debate, I once again draw attention recommendation that the UK should help China with to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial the design of its emissions trading systems, including Interests and declare an interest in a number of energy the detailed aspects. We have an opportunity in China and transport companies. that would enable us to punch well above our weight. 173WH Low-Carbon Growth Links (China)18 APRIL 2013 Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) 174WH

Expertise in the UK can be deployed usefully in a only about the prospect of setting an absolute target for country that is addressing low-carbon issues as urgently carbon emissions by 2020, but about expecting it to be a as China. declining target as soon as possible thereafter. I do not There were areas of disagreement between the think that advisers would have been heard making such Government and the Committee over our recommendations four or five years ago. recommendations. I shall not dwell on those in too The pilot emissions trading system is clearly still in its much detail because I want to allow my colleagues the infancy. During the next three years, we expect to see chance to take part in the debate. The Committee is the pilots operating on a small scale, with the first one particularly concerned about CCS. That technology is probably in Shenzhen. Their scope is significant; they vital the world over, but particularly in China. Despite cover about a quarter of China’s GDP across six energy- the fact that coal will represent a declining proportion intensive industries and some of the country’s most of China’s energy mix, it will remain substantial in important provinces and cities. There is potentially a absolute terms, so, without CCS, it is difficult to see big prize—not just for Britain, but for the world—if we how progress towards the long-term emissions reductions can encourage China’s engagement in the low-carbon targets can be achieved. We recommended that CCS be agenda. I am confident that the new Chinese leadership added to the list of UKTI high-value opportunities, will be at least as committed to progress as its predecessors. and I think that that Committee would want me to China does not, perhaps, have the same obstacles to reiterate that recommendation. land use planning decisions that occur in democracies, We also recommended a dialogue on the development particularly in crowded countries such as the UK. The of gas and highlighted the opportunity for us presented Chinese decide to do something and can get on and do by shale gas. I hope that Britain will exploit its shale gas it in a way that we might sometimes envy. The energy resources and develop its expertise, which could be and transport infrastructure roll-out in China is sometimes shared with the Chinese in due course. There is a breathtaking in its scope and speed, and we might have conscious desire in China for collaboration with us on a some lessons to learn there. number of renewable technologies, including offshore In the interests of allowing my colleagues to take part wind and other marine technologies. There are great in the debate, I shall finish by commending the report to opportunities in that. the House. The process is not entirely one way, and we should look at the progress China is making on the introduction Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): The debate can go on of smart grids. I was talking only last week to the state until 5.6 pm. I will call the Front-Bench spokespeople at grid in China, the customer base of which is a small 4.46 pm, and I think that three other hon. Members matter of 1 billion people—twice the number of people want to speak, so that gives them about seven minutes in the European Union. Some of the work that it is each if they split the time. undertaking, which will produce greater efficiency in the use of energy through smart grids, is worthy of 4.24 pm examination. Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I am delighted I hope, too, that we can consider developing common to speak on this important matter under your chairmanship, standards, whether in the building industry, the vehicle Mr Betts, and I heartily endorse all that the Chair of the industry or other appliance industries. If there were a Select Committee, the hon. Member for South Suffolk common standard between Britain, or preferably the (Mr Yeo), has said, particularly about the very positive EU, and China, which would cover almost a third of the engagement between our Foreign and Commonwealth world’s population and a substantial proportion of Office and China. GDP, that might give businesses in the EU, and in Britain in particular, a head start, and set an example I address my remarks to the Minister in particular, as that the Americans felt the need to follow. this is an area in which the Government need to do more. The Government now have a strong link and There is great concern in China about pollution—in positive engagement with India, and they need to step particular, air quality. China looks with interest at the up to the mark in the same way in China, reinforcing progress that London has made in improving air quality their commitment there. That would prove tremendously and wishes to share our experiences. I think that the positive, not just for climate change and climate change new Chinese leadership will be extremely focused on negotiations, but for our own productive economy, including that. One of its officials was recently quoted as saying our exports. that At the GLOBE summit of legislators that took place “pollution is so serious, if we don’t do something about it, the a month before COP 15 in Copenhagen, Chairman public won’t agree and heaven won’t accept it”. Wang Guangtao and Congressman Ed Markey put On the question of progress in China, emissions are their heads together. That was an extraordinary engagement, obviously rising because of the growth in the economy, in that legislators from the two countries that have been but the goal that it has set to reduce the carbon intensity seen, in some respects, as the key blockers to an international of its economy is having an impact in slowing down the agreement came together and agreed a set of legislative growth of emissions. In 2012, the growth was down to principles upon which climate negotiations could advance. only 3.2%, compared with 9.3% in the previous year. It is really in my capacity as chairman of the board of Last year, the carbon intensity of the Chinese economy GLOBE International that I want to cast my perspective appeared to decline by at least 4%. The 12th five-year on the Select Committee report, and I should declare plan has a target to reduce carbon intensity by 17%, and my entry in that regard in the Register of Members’ during my recent visit it was interesting to find senior Financial Interests, even though it is a non-pecuniary advisers to the Chinese Government talking openly not interest. 175WH Low-Carbon Growth Links (China)18 APRIL 2013 Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) 176WH

[Barry Gardiner] 4.31 pm Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): The International Energy Agency estimates that China Criminologists have observed that the victims of confidence will account for half of the growth in energy-related tricksters are often willing—indeed, eager—to believe emissions to 2030. For almost a decade, that is the sort the story to which they fall victim, and the more absurd, of fact that has been used to vilify China, painting it as fantastic or fabulous the story, the more willing they are the villain of the piece, and politicians have sometimes to believe it. The report is an example of a confidence used it as an excuse for inaction. Indeed, the fact that trick that has been willingly absorbed by the Government China produces so many emissions is one of the most and members of the Committee. It contains all the trenchant arguments used, as we heard earlier, in the characteristics necessary for the sort of fairy tale in US Senate for taking no action on climate change. The which one wants to believe: it has a faraway country, Chinese economy will, of course, remain one of the mysterious powers that we attribute to ourselves, and most powerful engines of climate change for the next pots of gold—green gold—at the end of the rainbow. two decades, but at the same time the scale of its own ambition for decarbonisation will, I think, be a turning The first delusion affirmed by the report is the delusion point in global efforts to halt the pace of climate of power. It is a strange hangover from liberal imperialism change. China’s approach, although much of it based that the British intellectual classes believe that they can on domestic political reasons, because of the problems still dominate the world—that the world is anxious to with pollution in its own cities, is driving China to take hear from them, and will jump to attention at their really positive steps to increase not the decarbonisation every word and follow their every command. Take the but the carbon productivity of its economy, at the same opening words of the report: time as making great advances on renewables. “China is central to global efforts to tackle climate change”— true, but it continues, and I ask Members to savour The International Energy Agency’s “World Energy these words— Outlook 2012” estimates that by 2035 China will have “and should be at the heart of HMG’s climate change mitigation increased its windpower capacity to 330 GW. That is strategy.” 40% greater than the global wind capacity in 2011, What imperialist arrogance and what delusions of grandeur which gives some sense of the scale at which China is that the United Kingdom, a nation of 65 million people moving. I have mentioned Chairman Wang Guangtao. off the coast of Europe, could somehow direct, guide or He became the first president of GLOBE China when it in any substantive way influence the policies of the was formed, but the relationship with China goes much largest nation in the world, with 1.3 billion people, on deeper than that. The relationship is also with Minister the other side of the globe. Xie Zhenhua, who has, despite the recent changes in China, been reconfirmed, I am pleased to say, in his How are we to achieve that remarkable feat? The position as Minister for the next period—there was a summary refers to question mark over what position he would end up “our leadership role in China”. with. The engagement that international legislators have Members should also savour those words. I read about been able to have with the Minister, and with Su Wei, the change of leadership in China last year, but I did who is one of the central figures under the Minister as not realise that that involved the replacement of Xi Jin the key negotiator and formulator of China’s policy in Ping by “Greg Bar Ker”and “Ed Da Vey”—they apparently this area, has been extraordinary. now have a leadership role in China to which the Chinese are now anxious to respond. The report states In October 2011, Minister Xie came to London as that, sadly, our part of a delegation hosted by GLOBE. He met senior “leadership role in China is being undermined by our ‘image’…The political figures from all three major UK parties—including UK’s image is also tarnished by the reputation of being ‘all talk Cabinet Office Ministers, the then Secretary of State for and no action’.” Energy and Climate Change and the Leader of the I wish it were all talk and no action in this country. Opposition—as well as senior Members of the European When people who do not like windmills—I quite like Parliament, and it was agreed that a regular second them—look across our countryside and find that they track to negotiations should be established. blight the horizon, they wish there was more talk and In Venice in September 2012, that second track took less action. When people pay their household bills, they off when the Chinese delegation—led by Su Wei, wish there was more talk and less action. Abroad, the director general of the Department of Climate however, the word has apparently got out that we do Change in the National Development and Reform not really mean what we say. I do not know how that Commission—agreed the approach now being carried has happened, but it will apparently be made worse if forward by China and GLOBE in Europe. As we speak, we do not inflict more problems on ourselves, because the unlikely team of Lord Prescott and Lord Deben is the report states: in China with a delegation of legislators from France “Slowing the pace of decarbonisation at home could and other parts of Europe to negotiate with the Chinese undermine…the credibility of UK leadership on climate change.” on an initiative about how the UK and China can work The second delusion is about China’s decarbonisation together to reduce carbon emissions through product policy. The British intelligentsia has always been capable standards. of convincing itself that China is a paragon of whatever is the current fashionable virtue. When I was at Cambridge, My time is at an end, so I will sit down, although I Professor Joan Robinson used to dress in a Mao suit could say much more on this subject. I believe that and teach us that China had shown us a new economic engagement with China is critical for the Government model that we could all follow. Now it is doing the same and the future of the negotiations. on climate change. The report states: 177WH Low-Carbon Growth Links (China)18 APRIL 2013 Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) 178WH

“China has set out some of the most ambitious decarbonisation “UK skills in the emerging market for unconventional ‘shale’ plans in the world.” gas could help China to diversify its energy mix away from coal.” Yet, it also states that, Anything further from reality than the suggestion that “half the growth in energy-related emissions from now until 2030 we, who have held back shale gas development in this will come from China.” country and who—as we are told by the Committee, Half of that growth will come from the country that is which has carried out an investigation—lack the expertise pursuing the most ambitious decarbonisation policy in and will take a long time to develop our own resources, the world, and by 2030 if they are there, can nevertheless help the Chinese to do “China could account for half of the world’s emissions.” so and then count that as a green export, would seem to I submit that those two views are incompatible. Either me to be pretty bizarre. China is pursuing the most ambitious decarbonisation The second sector is low-carbon buildings, primarily policy in the world, in which case one assumes that it their design. That is fair enough. Let us send a few will decarbonise—or at least match our skills in reducing, designers and architects over there and get the Chinese or preventing the growth in, carbon emissions—or it to pay their fees, but it will not revolutionise the British will not. economy. Why is that rosy view of China’s emissions policies Interestingly, the third sector is carbon capture and peddled? The British public have to be convinced that storage. We are actually paying the Chinese to help China’s emissions are under control. The report admits: them to develop the technology, and the report says that “The UK’s emissions reduction efforts are negligible compared they already have a plant up and running. The idea that with emissions increases elsewhere.” somehow the result is going to be us exporting carbon In 2011, the increase in emissions from China exceeded capture and storage technology to them when we are the UK’s total emissions by 200 million tonnes. The helping them develop a technology in which they are device used in the report to convince us all that the already further ahead than we are is bizarre. Chinese are pursuing an ambitious decarbonisation policy is, first, to glide from talking about reducing Barry Gardiner: Am I right in thinking that the right emissions to talking about reducing emissions growth, hon. Gentleman genuinely believes that the expertise which is not quite the same thing, and secondly, to that this country has built up both from the North sea equate reduction in carbon intensity with cutting carbon oilfields and in drilling in that technology is not something emissions, which is not the same thing at all. that we can export to China in helping them to develop Like any sensible country, China of course wants shale gas? more economic output from every tonne of fuel or joule of energy used. It enjoyed steady reductions in carbon Mr Lilley: We can certainly export to China the intensity until the beginning of this century—not that it technical expertise that we have in the North sea, and had any particular plan for CO2 reductions; it just used we are doing so. energy more efficiently each year—but for some reason that stopped early in this century, and it now has plans Barry Gardiner: What is wrong with the Select Committee to return to the same path of increasing energy efficiency report, then? each year. Despite such increasing energy efficiency, however, it will experience major rises in energy use and carbon emissions. Mr Lilley: What is wrong with it is that such expertise has nothing to do with green exports. It is a delusion, The third delusion is the prospect of green jobs in the and a deliberate delusion, to portray exports of expertise UK resulting from exports to China. That prospect in oil and gas development as a green export. If the hon. depends on the UK inflicting on itself severe and ambitious Gentleman cannot see that, it takes my breath away. measures to decarbonise the UK economy. The report states: Have we got the expertise in shale gas? We have not “Slowing the pace of decarbonisation at home could undermine developed any shale gas in this country, onshore or our low-carbon businesses and the export opportunities for this offshore. So if we have expertise, it comes from operating sector”. in other countries and we may be able to transfer that to What are the opportunities? The report states that the China, but again, it would not be a green export—although “inquiry identified three sectors where…the UK has an established I can see that the Minister is about to tell me otherwise. lead”. What are they? The first is the oil and gas sector. It is The Minister of State, Department of Energy and true that we have expertise in oil and gas, but I would Climate Change (Gregory Barker): My right hon. Friend not have thought of it as a typical green sector. Indeed, must take great credit for the fact that he presided over the report states that, one of the largest single factors in Britain’s being able to “British expertise could help to ensure that” meet its decarbonising targets, because he was in the Chinese resources are used Government during the dash for gas, and I would say that the single biggest factor that we could hope for in “in the most sustainable way possible. The UK’s own emissions profile has been improved by the ‘switch to gas’ and…a similar shifting China from its current carbon intensity is to switch could be achieved in China, reducing emissions between shift it off coal and on to more gas. That would have a 50% and 70%. Significant potential for gas development lies in transformational impact in the way that the Government the exploitation of unconventional resources.” of which he was such an important part did here in the The report mentions shale gas in China, but not UK in the ’90s—[Interruption.] And it is a green export. much encouragement has been given to that in this country, where we have had an 18-month moratorium Mr Lilley: In following the previous Chairman’s and no drilling so far. None the less, the Committee’s admonition to us to keep interventions short, I have cut report, which the Government have endorsed, believes: short the Minister’s intervention. The suggestion that 179WH Low-Carbon Growth Links (China)18 APRIL 2013 Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) 180WH

[Mr Lilley] he said that instruments will be included in the Shanghai carbon trading market that will take credits off the we need to pursue at home policies to decarbonise our market when supplies are too high and prices are too industry, in order to persuade the Chinese to use our low. He said that China would learn from the difficulties expertise in oil and gas, defies all logic and I find it that are taking place in Europe and that it was committed completely breathtaking. The argument seems to be to the development of a carbon trading market. In the that if we are to get these green jobs—the Minister has 11th five-year plan, China had attempted to reach some now reclassified exporting oil and gas expertise as a targets. Among other things, it closed down factories green job—we have to discourage the use of oil and gas for a number of weeks towards the end of the five-year at home. The mind boggles. The sheer, passionate desire period for each region to reach its target. of the Minister and, I am afraid, of some members of China understands the situation now and has developed the Committee, not to face up to reality but to come up its way of doing things enormously, so that its measures with every kind of spurious defence for a policy that on carbon trading arrangements begin to coincide with simply does not hold water, baffles me. other countries around the world. Therefore, there could The truth is that we are, by imposing on our business be international co-operation on these matters, built on high energy costs in the UK, driving business abroad, the basis of everyone following similar practices. We some of it to China. By subsidising the investment in should not dismiss that on the grounds that the UK has solar panels and wind turbines, we are creating opportunities a population of 65 million or 70 million and that China for China to export to the UK and we are probably has a population of many billions, thus making us creating green jobs in China. But let us not pretend that insignificant. Actually, we have a role to play in this we are creating any green jobs for ourselves, or any matter and in a dialogue with China, along with other opportunities to export to China, that would not exist if countries in the EU and across the world. That takes us we simply abandoned all our climate change commitments back to that multilateral discussion that we were concerned in this country. about in the previous debate. This is not about Britain being imperialistic and trying to tell China what to do; Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): Do the Front-Bench it is a question of the UK’s contribution to a country speakers think that eight minutes is sufficient time that appears to be changing many of its assumptions for their winding-up speeches? [Interruption.] Okay. about its own growth and how it goes forward. Dr Whitehead has four minutes. Whatever we may think about elements of the political and economic situation in China and how they are dealt 4.44 pm with, it is worth while collaborating with China to a far Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I do greater extent for the greater good, not only of China or not want to detain hon. Members for long; indeed, I this country but of the wider world. If the Committee’s cannot, because I only have four minutes. Just as an report has been able to emphasise and underpin that aside, I draw hon. Members’ attention to an Asterix process, it has achieved a good purpose. However, hon. comic of a long time ago, entitled “La Zizanie”, which Members should not read into the report something was about a person who went into Asterix’s camp and that is not there. It is an honest attempt to consider how annoyed everyone so much, setting people against each UK advances and UK positions may be aligned more other, that they lost track of what it was they were closely with other countries and with China in particular. trying to talk about. I merely want to leave that on the China is indeed changing its stance on climate change—it table. is not a delusion to say that—and for its own purposes, as well as for international purposes, beginning to make The Select Committee report is not about whether substantial changes in how it goes about its economic Britain has an imperialistic relationship with China and activity, and it is important that we do likewise— wishes to influence the whole of Chinese development. It is a modest effort to look at how the UK’s climate change and energy considerations might be attached to Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): Order. relations with the largest emitter of CO2 in the world. I am talking about a country that is developing rapidly 4.50 pm economically, and changing equally rapidly its position as regards its stance on climate change. The report tried Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): to consider how those two things might be matched. This afternoon’s debate has been very lively and informative. Unless we do not believe that there is any merit whatever Once again, I commend the hon. Member for South in having any sort of international dialogue with anybody, Suffolk (Mr Yeo),the Chairman of the Select Committee, we should take that Select Committee view at face value for how he introduced the debate, and I thank all the and welcome it for what it is. members of the Committee for the work that they have The report is not a view that all is rosy in the world of done in producing another excellent report. China, but a timely reminder that China is changing its As many hon. Members have noted in their contributions, view on climate change. A number of things are happening China is key to the fight against climate change. China’s in China that underline that view. Indeed, just yesterday, carbon emissions have risen rapidly during the past the Minister in charge of climate policies, Xie Zhenhua, decade; they are up by more than 171% since the year indicated that the aim for the Chinese economy now is a 2000, growing to be 48% larger than the USA’s output reduction in the 2011 levels of carbon intensity by 40% of carbon emissions. As China is now responsible for to 45% by 2020. It also wants to boost its non-fossil fuel 29% of the world’s carbon emissions and, on current use to 15% of energy consumption by 2020. He talked trajectories, is predicted to become responsible for 50% about the beginning of the carbon market in Shenzhen of global emissions by 2030, so it is clear that no effort in June and then later in the year in Shanghai. Significantly, to tackle climate change will be successful without its 181WH Low-Carbon Growth Links (China)18 APRIL 2013 Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) 182WH engagement. Therefore, as the Chairman of the Select that the UKTI arm of BIS is currently focusing on the Committee alluded to, it is welcome that China’s latest right areas to deliver high-value opportunities for British five-year plan is the greenest yet. business. The report’s summary says: My hon. Friends the Members for Brent North (Barry “There are too many projects, focusing on too many different Gardiner) and for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) areas, rather than a coordinated effort to achieve key objectives.” gave a number of examples that showed the investment The report says that the UK Government should instead and support that China is extending to its wind power focus on a smaller number of “strategic interventions” sector, as well as its general commitment to increase and that renewable generation, which is happening alongside “Projects should be tailored to appeal to Chinese priorities and to plans to draft a new climate law and to trial a carbon build on UK strengths. For policy, this means a focus on…carbon trading scheme. pricing and accounting, where the UK has experience to offer.” The Committee’s report highlights the huge opportunities The Committee calls on the Government to undertake that this Chinese low-carbon transition could provide a systematic assessment of the sectors where the UK for British business. According to the latest report from could have such an advantage. One of the ways that the the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on report suggests the Government’s focus could be improved this sector, “Low Carbon and Environmental Goods is to and Services”, UK exports to China are currently worth “adopt a clearer set of high-level objectives”— £795 million, which makes China by far our largest high-level cross-Whitehall objectives and actions— export market in this sector; it can be compared with “with regard to low-carbon cooperation with China”. our next largest export market in the sector, Hong Kong, which is currently worth £595 million. That was recommendation 9 of the report. On that, the Government said: I do not know whether the Minister has had an opportunity to read the Committee’s report in full. It “We agree with the committee that strategic coordination across Whitehall is important”, argues that there is a huge opportunity to increase trade links, but says that that opportunity could be missed but then they go on to reject the Committee’s because of the Government’s current inaction. One of recommendation that a formal cross-departmental the major criticisms that the report made was that a Committee should be set up to develop this strategy. lack of progress on the low-carbon agenda here at home The impression that I took from that was that, in effect, was damaging our reputation abroad. The exact phrase nothing will change. Will the Minster tell us in detail that the Chairman of the Select Committee used at the what action has been taken since the Committee’s report time of the report’s publication was that to develop cross-Whitehall objectives for low-carbon co-operation with China? “The UK’s image is unfortunately in danger of becoming tarnished by a reputation of being more talk than action when it comes to I will draw my remarks to a close. The Committee’s climate change.” report underlines the key strategic importance of China We know from independent analysis by Bloomberg in efforts to reduce global carbon emissions. It reminds New Energy Finance that investment in renewable energy us of the importance of China as Britain’s largest has fallen by half since this Government came to power, overseas market for low-carbon goods and services, and and figures published in November 2012 by Ernst and it highlights the numerous opportunities that China’s Young on attractiveness for investment in renewable low-carbon transition presents for the UK to develop energy showed that the UK has fallen to sixth place, these links further. However, the report warns that, as a slipping below France, which, as has been pointed out result of the Government’s lack of progress in securing in the two debates this afternoon, is a country that investment in this country and in progressing towards generates nearly 80% of its electricity from nuclear. our carbon reduction commitments, these opportunities may slip away from us. The Committee recommends In the earlier debate, I spoke about the incredible that to prevent that from happening the Government’s frustration that is felt about the fact that the Government work in China needs to improve its strategic focus, as are refusing to include an explicit commitment in the well as shifting its attention to areas where Britain has current Energy Bill to decarbonise our power sector by experience to offer, such as carbon capture and storage 2030 that would provide businesses with the certainty and carbon pricing and accounting. The report makes and confidence in the Government’s green agenda that sensible and practical suggestions that I hope the they are crying out for. That reluctance to commit Government will act on, and I look forward to hearing resources and support at home is, as the report identifies, the Minister’s response to the debate. damaging our reputation abroad. The report notes: “The UK’s ability to influence policy in China and to compete 4.57 pm for business in low-carbon development depends on the reputation of the UK as a credible leader… However, the UK has not been The Minister of State, Department of Energy and as effective as other countries at showing China what the UK has Climate Change (Gregory Barker): This has been a to offer.” much shorter debate than the previous one. Nevertheless, So, while it is welcome to note in the Government’s it has been extremely useful and I thank my hon. Friend response to the Committee’s report that the UK’s presence the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) and the rest of in China has increased, those efforts will be undermined the Energy and Climate Change Committee for producing if the Government do not rapidly improve their performance this important report, following the Committee’s inquiry at home. on co-operation with China on low-carbon development. The report also raised concerns that the UK Trade & I welcome the report and this debate, like the earlier Investment team’s efforts on the ground in China could one, has been enlivened and made much more dynamic be better targeted. The Committee was not convinced by the challenging interventions of my right hon. Friend 183WH Low-Carbon Growth Links (China)18 APRIL 2013 Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) 184WH

[Gregory Barker] of those people, who appreciate the role that we play. As the Committee’s report observed, China is central to the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley). global efforts to tackle climate change. The challenge is He began with rather a theatrical flourish, almost using huge. We believe that, working with our Chinese colleagues, pantomime language, but I am afraid that his attack we can accelerate both our own and their transition to a slightly faltered and became less Dandini and rather low-carbon growth pattern, however modestly. more Wishy Washy as he progressed, because the fact of the matter is that the UK, as the hon. Member for I draw attention to our shared interests in energy, Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) suggested, is not including security of supply, energy pricing and energy seeking to make some bold post-imperial or neo-imperial efficiency, as well as development of low-carbon energy play in China. We have a modest role to play in China, technologies. We have a bilateral energy dialogue, supported but there is a role for us and we can leverage our by a memorandum of understanding between DECC influence to some effect. Given the extraordinary and China’s national energy administration. As the transformations that are going on in China, even a Committee has flagged up—I am afraid that I disagree modest impact from our modest interventions can have with my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and a profound effect and, as a result, mitigate the net Harpenden—gas exploitation is an important element amounts of carbon being produced. to consider and is likely to be discussed at the next energy dialogue, which we hope will take place later this Fundamentally, the real drive behind China’s emissions year. growth is urbanisation, which is continuing apace. It will reach a peak, however, and there will inevitably be Our embassy is working closely with the Chinese emissions growth while that extraordinary—indeed, national energy administration on gas pricing and unprecedented—urbanisation happens. However, the key regulations, including funding a new project to identify point is that China can put in place the policies that will necessary policies and regulations to enable timely yet enable its emissions to peak and fall, and our technical responsible development of shale gas in China. policy co-operation, however modest, is playing a part, The Committee, like hon. Members in the debate, even if it is small, in helping that process in areas such recognises the importance of carbon capture and storage as emissions trading, gas market regulation, low-carbon as a technology that is critical to meeting our climate product policy standards and so on. change goals, particularly in the longer term. Although I am constantly reminded by colleagues in this place, the technology faces significant challenges in China quite rightly, that the UK accounts for a tiny proportion around cost and energy penalties, there are encouraging of global emissions. It is right that we remember that, signs that China may be taking a more proactive stance. but we can, by our example, play an important role, and For example, the Ministry of Science and Technology by sharing our expertise and skill sets—particularly has recently issued its 12th five-year plan, which lays technical expertise of the terrific, cutting edge British out its priorities for research, development and companies—we can make a modest impact on that demonstration of CCS use and storage. The UK will important country. continue to share its experience with China and to use We can help build, as the report makes clear, a greater our influential climate financing to advance that agenda, share for the UK of the market for low-carbon goods given how critical it is for the delivery of our climate and services in China, which is the second biggest UK change objectives. market for those things and getting closer to a value of The International Climate Fund is giving £35 million £1 billion a year. That involves not only services. I am to support an Asian Development Bank programme, reminded that among the successful contracts won by developing CCS in countries including China. In addition, UK firms is one for the David Brown company, a Research Councils UK has put £3 million of co-funding distinguished engineering company, which has won a into joint CCS research, and a Foreign and Commonwealth contract for the design and production of wind turbine Office-funded study stimulating interest in taking forward gear boxes and marine tidal devices. This is not just CCS in the Guangdong region may result in new offshore about a small suite of service companies. Real high-tech demonstration programmes. We will not fund those manufacturing and engineering jobs increasingly depend programmes or projects, but we must not undervalue on that important market. the long-term commercial benefit of being associated I want to mention the low-carbon challenge, the with their early development. That is a sensible use of UK’s action to address the challenge and the future of taxpayers’ seedcorn in a global industry that could, in a UK co-operation on low carbon. The low-carbon challenge, very few years, be worth billions of pounds and where as we heard in the earlier debate, is a significant challenge the UK will be seen to have a leadership role. to deliver an ambitious 2015 global agreement and We appreciate that there is a lot more that we can do. additional emissions reductions before 2020. Achieving I take on board the Committee’s urging a more coherent that is critical to meeting the goal of limiting global approach across Whitehall, as the hon. Member for temperature increase and keeping below 2° C, and the Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) also said. I confirm UK is playing its part in that. Our strategy to achieve that a review is under way, looking at how we can do this includes working across Whitehall and through our that more effectively. We expect that review to finish in global network of climate and energy attachés to help the summer. to encourage greater ambition, and collaborating and sharing our experience to encourage low-carbon development. 5.6 pm I get positive feedback when I engage with members Mr Yeo: With the leave of the House, I thank all my of the Chinese Government, as I did last week in colleagues for contributing so constructively to this Washington, when I had a good conversation with some brief but important debate. There were moments when 185WH Low-Carbon Growth Links (China)18 APRIL 2013 Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) 186WH

I wondered whether my right hon. Friend the Member making any effort at all to try to capture a tiny segment for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) had been reading of the business in the largest and one of the most the Committee’s report. I do not want to suggest— rapidly growing markets in the world. I deplore that pessimism and do not share it, and I am delighted that Mr Lilley: Can I intervene? the rest of the Committee actually visited China. I would be interested to know when my right hon. Friend Mr Yeo: Sadly, I do not have time. last went there, because if he had visited in the past year or two he would have seen a picture very different from Mr Lilley: All my quotes were direct from the report. that which he painted. I am grateful to everyone for taking part in the debate Mr Yeo: I will check Hansard in detail. My right hon. and I am sure we will return to the subject. We should Friend also said that, at Cambridge university in the vigorously pursue opportunities for sharing our expertise, 1960s, China was held up as a model that Britain should including in the important area of emissions trading, follow. I also attended Cambridge university in the where we are among the leaders in the world. I welcome 1960s, but I do not recall anyone at the university the support for that aim from those on both Front suggesting that at any time. Benches. I deeply regret my right hon. Friend’s low opinion of Question put and agreed to. the expertise of British business. He obviously assumes—I am sad to hear this from a former Trade and Industry Secretary—that German, French and Italian business is 5.7 pm so superior to British business that it is not worth our Sitting adjourned.

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the UK is bound by the stability and growth pact, by Written Ministerial virtue of its protocol to the treaty opting out of the euro, it is only required to “endeavour to avoid” excessive Statements deficits. Unlike the euro area member states, the UK is not subject to sanctions at any stage of the European semester process. Thursday 18 April 2013 Subject to the progress of Parliamentary business, debates will be held on 22 April for the House of Commons and 25 April for the House of Lords in order for both Houses to approve this assessment before the BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS convergence programme is submitted to the Commission. While the convergence programme itself is not subject Land Registry to parliamentary approval or amendment, I will deposit advanced copies of the document on 19 April that will be made available to Members through the Vote Office The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Printed Paper Office. and Skills (Michael Fallon): I can announce that today I The Budget report and the Office for Budget have appointed Ed Lester as the Land Registry chief Responsibility’s economic and fiscal outlook were laid executive. His appointment concludes a three-month in Parliament on 20 March 2013. All of the information open and transparent competition, overseen by the the convergence programme will contain has therefore Civil Service Commission. already been published and made available to Members. From day one he will be on payroll and his salary will The UK’s convergence programme will be published be £135,000. He will also be eligible for a performance- in late April and will be available electronically via HM related award package of up to 20% of base salary. This Treasury’s website after publication. It will be submitted would be awarded for excellent performance against a to the EU by 30 April as required by the European clear set of specific objectives aligned with delivering Commission. Land Registry’s strategy. Ed Lester’s previous role was chief executive of Student Loans Company where he led the organisation through a period of major transformation and where it became ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS an early model of the Government’s “digital by default” programme. This experience will be invaluable to the Land Registry Sheep Industry (Severe Weather) as it moves into the implementation phase of its own transformation to become an exemplar of a highly efficient, digital and data-centric organisation. This includes The Minister of State, Department for Environment, digitising its core registration processes and developing Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): I am today a more strategic approach to data to support wider announcing details of additional support for those sheep economic growth. farmers in England who have suffered devastating losses as a result of the severe weather last month. Up to £250,000 will be available to reimburse farmers TREASURY for the very specific problem of removing animals that have died on-farm through asphyxiation, starvation or hypothermia as a direct result of the March snowfall. UK Convergence Programme (2012-13) This level of funding reflects the latest information on stock losses identified by the National Farmers Union. We will now be working with the NFU, the National The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark): Fallen Stock Company and other industry representatives Section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) to finalise arrangements for funding and to ensure that Act 1993 requires the Government to report to Parliament it is well targeted. for its approval an assessment of the UK’s medium-term This funding will build on the programme of support economic and budgetary position. This assessment, which which we have already put in place to help affected has been prepared annually since 1994, currently comprises farmers. DEFRA has permitted the burial or burning the Budget report and the Office for Budget Responsibility’s of livestock on site if the conditions are too difficult to (OBR’s) economic and fiscal outlook. get carcases to a collection vehicle. We have relaxed the This then forms the basis of the UK’s convergence rules on drivers’ hours to allow extra time for essential programme, which is therefore based entirely on information deliveries of animal feed. Natural England has temporarily already presented to Parliament. The UK is obliged to lifted some of the land management requirements that submit a convergence programme annually to the European normally apply to environmental stewardship agreements, Commission under article 121 of the treaty on the so that farmers and growers have more flexibility to functioning of the European Union. deal with the impact of this extreme and unseasonable Article 121, along with article 126, is the legal basis weather. for the stability and growth pact, which is the co-ordination DEFRA has worked closely with the National Fallen mechanism for EU fiscal policies and requires member Stock Company to encourage collectors to offer discounted states to avoid excessive Government deficits. Although rates for removing more than 10 sheep at a time. Farmers 35WS Written Ministerial Statements18 APRIL 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS who have suffered heavy losses will be reimbursed in the public be able to access FCO travel advice online at line with these discounted rates for the sheep they have any time but those who want to will be alerted when paid to remove. there are major updates. More specifically, the strategy We also need to consider the longer term. In May, the will see: Secretary of State will host a meeting of industry Improvements to our services, so that we achieve consistently representatives, farming charities and banks to highlight excellent standards, with our efforts focused more on helping the financial impact this exceptional weather is having the people who need it the most, and doing less where we can on farm businesses and to see what more can be done to deliver a service differently or it is reasonable to ask people support farmers who are struggling financially. to help themselves. Improvements to the customer experience, giving British As I saw on my recent visit to Cumbria and listening nationals greater choice in how they access our services and to those involved, the loss of sheep during some of the how they can reach us. As a result, four contact centres will worst snow in living memory has taken a terrible emotional be created, offering a streamlined route to consular services. and financial toll on those farmers affected, which is Digital transformation, with more services available online why I am happy to announce this additional measure and more use of technology to help us deliver services. today. I am grateful to all those who have offered and Engagement with customers and partners, improving our provided assistance to them at a very difficult time. I processes for gathering feedback and for carrying out call upon the public and food businesses to help our consultations with special interest groups and British nationals. farmers by buying British lamb. Support for our networks and development of our people, helping to maintain and build greater professionalism amongst our staff and ensure that we have resilient structures in place FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE to enable proper service delivery. Improvements to our crisis response, embedding the major Consular Strategy 2013-16 changes to our processes since the Arab spring, continuing regular exercising of our posts overseas and increasing engagement with other interested parties. In effect, the FCO The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth is moving from a system where British nationals are encouraged Affairs (Mr William Hague): I have today launched a to register when they travel in case there is a crisis, to one new consular strategy for 2013 to 2016 entitled “Consular where we are using a number of channels to give British Excellence”. This strategy will deliver better service for nationals the latest information and advice on what they should do if they need our help in a crisis. This faster and British people over the next three years. more practical system supersedes the locate system, which Millions of British people travel abroad every year. had been used by less than 1% of British nationals overseas, Most have a journey free from trouble and do not need which did not offer what FCO needs to help support British consular services. However sometimes things go wrong nationals in a crisis. Those who have already registered with and British nationals can be victims of serious crime, the FCO on locate will be contacted directly to make sure require hospitalisation or be caught up in a major crisis. they are aware of how to stay informed and also how to communicate with FCO if they need help. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has staff in 146 cities around the world able and ready to Transferring overseas passport production to the Identity and Passport Service in the UK, establishing a more consistent, provide assistance when necessary, often in tragic secure, efficient and cost-effective service. circumstances. The FCO is committed to doing its utmost to assist British nationals in serious difficulties I am committed to ensuring FCO has the best crisis abroad. IT system in the world. The FCO will also continue to encourage the British public to take sensible precautions, I am proud of the great work the FCO’s consular read FCO travel advice and take responsibility for their service does but it can be better; under this new strategy own safety first, particularly if they are travelling to or the FCO aims to have the best consular service in the living in high-risk locations. world by 2016. The FCO will build on significant improvements made in the last six years, including The new consular strategy is available on GOV.UK greater investment in staff, better crisis response, building at: regional structures and the start of transferring passport www.gov.uk/government/publications/consular- work. By 2016, the FCO will have a modern, efficient strategy service supporting British nationals overseas. We will in accordance with Government digital by default principles. do more to help those who need it most; those who are I have placed a copy of the strategy in the Libraries of most at risk because of who they are, where they are or both Houses. what has happened to them. We will deliver more services through expert partners, and where it is reasonable, ask people to help themselves. The FCO will also introduce General Affairs, Foreign Affairs, and Defence Foreign a modern and streamlined notarial and documentary Affairs Councils service. All these changes will help us respond better to changing needs and react faster to crisis situations. The FCO is also responding to British nationals The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My needs to be best informed about crisis and security right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and situations when overseas. We are updating its systems to Commonwealth Affairs will attend the Foreign Affairs offer a wide array of ways to stay in touch on these Council (FAC) and I will attend the General Affairs issues, including email updates of the FCO’s country-specific Council (GAC) on 22 April. My right hon. Friend the travel advice or by following FCO on social media. Minister for International Security Strategy will attend Around 125 of our overseas posts have Facebook pages the Defence Foreign Affairs Council and the European and over 100 posts have Twitter accounts that are used Defence Agency steering board on 22 and 23 April. to communicate changes to travel advice. Not only will These meetings will be held in Luxembourg. The General 37WS Written Ministerial Statements18 APRIL 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

Affairs Council will be chaired by the Irish presidency, corridor, bringing Caspian gas to Europe via Turkey. and the Foreign Affairs Council and Defence Foreign The increasingly interconnected nature of the EU gas Affairs Council will be chaired by the High Representative market means there will be indirect benefits to the UK of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security of additional gas supplies to Europe, and a more stable Policy, Baroness Ashton of Upholland. and diverse European gas market. Serbia and Kosovo GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL The GAC will focus on enlargement, preparation of Baroness Ashton is likely to update Ministers on the May European Council and EU fundamental values, progress on the EU-facilitated Serbia and Kosovo dialogue. specifically democracy and the rule of law. The Irish The UK welcomes the leadership of Baroness Ashton presidency will update the Council on the multiannual on this and is keen to see further improvement in the financial framework: no discussion of this is expected. relations between the two sides. However we are clear Enlargement reports for Serbia, Kosovo and Macedonia that we must see progress on all of the Kosovo-related conditionality set out at the December GAC if we are There will be discussion of Serbia, Kosovo and to agree to open accession negotiations with Serbia at Macedonia, on the basis of reports from the European the June GAC. external action service and European Commission, released ahead of the GAC, on those countries’ progress on the Bosnia and Herzegovina issues set out in the December GAC conclusions. On Ministers may also consider progress made by Bosnia Serbia and Kosovo the focus will be on latest developments and Herzegovina’s (BiH) leaders on agreeing changes to in the EU-facilitated dialogue between the Prime Ministers the constitution to bring it into line with the European of Serbia and Kosovo: the UK welcomes the leadership Court of Human Rights judgment on Sejdic and Finci. of Baroness Ashton and is keen to see further improvement We will reaffirm our continued commitment to BiH’s in the relations between the two sides. As for Macedonia, EU perspective but are clear that existing conditionality the focus will be on that country’s reform efforts, good must be met and that continued inaction will not go neighbourly relations, and progress on resolving the unnoticed. The onus is on BiH’s leaders to demonstrate name dispute with Greece. I expect any conclusions on their commitment and willingness to work together so the reports to be largely procedural, with more detailed as to make progress on the EU agenda in the interests of discussion at the June GAC. its citizens. May European Council Iran E3+3 The 22 May European Council will discuss the energy aspects of the single market; discuss tax policy focusing Baroness Ashton will update Ministers on the latest on improving tax collection and tackling tax evasion round of E3+3 nuclear talks with Iran, which took and fraud; will take stock of the deepening of economic place in Almaty, Kazakhstan, 5 and 6 April. Iran showed and monetary union (EMU); and will consider foreign some willingness to engage on the substance, but its policy issues. I will take this opportunity to highlight current position falls far short of what is needed for a the importance of making further progress on the single diplomatic breakthrough. As a result, the E3+3 did not market and the need to improve tax policy and transparency immediately agree to a further meeting but returned to in support of the priorities for the G8 summit in June. capitals to consider how to move forward. EU fundamental rights Eastern partnership Denmark, the Netherlands, Finland and Germany Ministers will have a discussion on the eastern jointly sent a letter to President Barroso on 6 March partnership, looking ahead to November’s eastern 2013, emphasising the importance of the rule of law, partnership summit in Vilnius. We expect the discussion human rights and democracy; the fundamental values to focus in particular on Ukraine and Belarus. The UK of the Union. The letter called for an EU mechanism to remains committed to a closer relationship between the protect these fundamental values, and suggested that EU and Ukraine, and we will continue to make clear the European Commission should play a greater role in that progress is dependent on Ukraine making necessary this area. At the request of the signatories this issue will reforms. On Belarus, we welcome the news that Sweden be discussed at the GAC. I will underline the importance can re-establish a diplomatic presence in Minsk. We will of safeguarding the rule of law, human rights and continue to make clear that development of the relationship democracy within the Union. I will also acknowledge with Belarus is conditional upon improvements in human the link between effective justice systems and economic rights, democracy and the rule of law, including the growth, as identified in the letter. I will highlight the release and rehabilitation of political prisoners. important role already played by the Council of Europe Southern neighbourhood in relation to fundamental values and encourage the Council to bear this valuable contribution in mind. The On Syria, Ministers will discuss the deteriorating letter did not go into detail on how any EU mechanism situation on the ground, including the humanitarian would work, therefore I will not be commenting on the aspects and the EU response to it, and the need to specifics of any proposal at this stage. The UK remains provide support to the Syrian National Coalition. We keen to see that any future mechanism respects areas of will emphasise the need to consider amending the EU member state competence. sanctions package. On Lebanon, following the recent resignation of Prime FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL Minister Mikati and the appointment of Mr Tamam Energy Salara as Prime Minister designate, the discussion is Ministers will discuss EU external relations on energy likely to focus on the need to encourage the swift and the southern corridor pipeline. We welcome this formation of a cabinet; for consensus over a new elections discussion and support the development of a southern law; and for timely parliamentary elections. Ministers 39WS Written Ministerial Statements18 APRIL 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS are also likely to discuss the effects of the conflict in DEFENCE FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL Syria, with Lebanon now host to nearly 400,000 refugees, EU training mission Mali impacting on its security, stability and economy. Ministers will discuss current EU CSDP operations, Baroness Ashton will report back from her recent focusing on EU training mission (EUTM) Mali, over visit to Egypt. The UK will voice backing for ongoing dinner on Monday 22 April. General Lecointre, head of EU support of Egyptian political and economic reform, mission EUTM Mali, will provide an update on progress but emphasise also the importance of the “more for on training the Malian armed forces. Discussion is more” principle in EU engagement with Egypt. likely to cover developments on the future of the African-led Mali international support mission to Mali, AFISMA, the provision of equipment for the Malian armed forces, The discussion on Mali will focus on the need for and a possible UN peacekeeping role. The chair of the further progress to be made on national dialogue and EU Military Committee will provide an update on reconciliation, leading to elections scheduled for July. other military missions. We will reiterate ongoing UK Ministers will take stock of developments in New York, support for the EU CSDP missions and operations. following the UN Security Council’s negotiations on a December European Council resolution authorising a UN operation in Mali. They will also consider the EU’s overall common security Ministers will discuss preparations for the December and defence policy (CSDP) response to Mali and the 2013 European Council on defence. We will set out the Sahel region, in the context of the EU’s strategy for UK aims, which are to ensure that there is a focus on security and development in the Sahel. the comprehensive approach and complementarity with NATO; to improve cost-effectiveness and operational Burma delivery; to enhance capabilities that benefit both NATO Ministers will discuss the situation in Burma in the and the EU; and for this to be underpinned by a context of reviewing EU restrictive measures, which are strengthened defence industrial base that will help boost currently suspended apart from the arms embargo and longer-term competitiveness and economic growth. restrictions on the supply of equipment which could be Battlegroups used for internal repression. We expect conclusions to The UK will lead the EU battlegroup (EUBG) in the welcome the significant reforms and highlight the challenges second half of 2013 with Lithuania, Latvia, Sweden that remain, including the situation in Rakhine state and the Netherlands. Preparing for this role not only and the plight of the Rohingya; the need to reach a demonstrates our commitment to the concept but also ceasefire with the Kachin, and move towards political provides training and transformational benefits, including dialogue with all Burma’s ethnic groups; and to release for our partners. We will set out our view on the remaining political prisoners. We will emphasise the possible closer integration of the battlegroup into the importance of a more comprehensive approach to future EU’s wider tools and strategies, making it clear that we EU engagement with Burma in the run up to and are not looking to alter the level of ambition, nor to beyond national elections in 2015. reopen the battlegroup concept. We will continue to European Defence Agency steering board push for the battlegroup to be a more credible, usable and deployable entity, working closely with civilian The European Defence Agency (EDA) steering board actors, to make a positive contribution to international on 23 April will focus on preparations for the agency’s crisis management. Future UK offers to act as a framework input to the December 2013 European Council on nation for the EUBG will be kept under review. defence, concentrating on increasing the effectiveness, visibility and impact of the common security and defence policy (CSDP); enhancing the development of defence capabilities; and strengthening Europe’s defence industry. JUSTICE The steering board will consider the EDA’s proposals to explore possibilities to expand pooling demand to cover the whole life-cycle; to intensify its efforts to support Courts and Tribunals (Fee Remissions) battlegroups and EU operations; and identify with member states co-operative projects to improve the pooling demand concept. To enhance the development of defence The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice capabilities, the EDA will invite the steering board to (Mrs Helen Grant): I am today publishing a consultation endorse actions to increase co-operation between member on the system of fee remissions for courts and tribunals. states. The proposals in this consultation paper (Cm 8608) will ensure that access to justice is maintained for those who The EDA will invite the steering board to endorse cannot afford a court or tribunal fee. They will also proposals to launch “pioneer projects” in remote piloted provide a better targeted system of fee remissions so aircraft systems, cyber defence and secure telecom by that those who can afford to pay a fee do so. satellite. The board will note the progress made in the air-to-air refuelling project and will be invited to endorse The proposals set out in this consultation paper the establishment of a category A programme on the represent a wide-ranging reform of the fee remissions military implementation of single European sky ATM system. A fee remission is a full or partial waiver of the research (SESAR). The UK is supportive of the EDA’s fees that become payable when an individual uses certain air-to-air refuelling project, and has offered unallocated court or tribunal services. UK Voyager flying hours to interested nations on a The remission system ensures that access to justice is “pool and charge” basis. We will invite member states maintained for those individuals on lower incomes who interested in clearing aircraft to declare their interest in would otherwise have difficulty paying a fee by providing the UK project with the EDA as soon as possible. access to that service free of charge or at a reduced rate. 41WS Written Ministerial Statements18 APRIL 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

Our aim is to produce a remissions system which is targeted towards those who need it most. The proposals better targeted, fairer, easy for users to understand and also ensure that the system of remissions takes into more coherent. To achieve this, the consultation paper account the introduction of universal credit which replaces proposes three key changes: several benefits that currently determine eligibility for a The introduction of a unified system of remissions across remission. courts and tribunals. The consultation will be open for a period of four The introduction of a disposable capital test to assess eligibility weeks. We plan to implement an amended remissions for a remission. system for the start of October 2013, in time for the The introduction of a simplified income test, with a greater level of contribution required from those who receive a introduction of the universal credit. partial remission. The consultation will be available in the Vote Office, Implementation of these proposals will mean that the the Printed Paper Office and on the Ministry of Justice taxpayer contribution towards fee remissions will be website.

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(2) whether clinical commissioning groups have a Written Answers to responsibility to deliver improvements in the recognition of, and response to, victims of domestic Questions violence and abuse; [150554] (3) what funding is provided by his Department for (a) staff, (b) training and (c) resources to deliver Thursday 18 April 2013 strategies to improve recognition and response to victims of domestic violence and abuse by healthcare providers. [150555] HEALTH Anna Soubry: Information on domestic violence is Anaemia not collected centrally. We are unable to reply for Wales as health is a devolved matter. Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Victims of domestic abuse use a variety of national Health how many cases of aplastic anaemia there were health service services such as general practitioner surgeries in each NHS hospital trust in each year since 2002. and walk-in clinics in primary care as well as accident [151897] and emergency departments for treatment of an injury. Anna Soubry: The information requested has been They do not always disclose to these services that an placed in the Library. injury occurred because of domestic abuse. As members of Health and Wellbeing Boards, Clinical Continuing Care Commissioning Groups (CCGs) are responsible for developing and implementing improvements for victims Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for of domestic violence and abuse as part of their Health how many continuing healthcare cases are commissioning plans, based on local need. CCGs will outstanding which (a) require assessment involving agree priorities with their local partners which will be current continuing healthcare patients and (b) involve reflected in joint health and wellbeing strategies, based retrospective cases to review deceased patients. [151864] on joint strategic need assessments. CCGs will have due regard for, and seek to comply with the Public Sector Norman Lamb: The Department does not collect Equality Duty to reduce health inequalities. The Public information on the numbers of NHS Continuing Sector Duty in the Equality Act 2010 means CCGs will Healthcare cases awaiting assessment. be responsible for assessing the equality implications of their work on people with protected characteristics, Dementia which includes the sex of a person. NHS England will assess how well CCGs achieve their commissioning Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for plans in relation to these duties. Health what recent assessment he has made of the (a) cost effectiveness and (b) effectiveness in comparison Information regarding funding provided by the with anti-psychotic medication of the use of cognitive Department to improve recognition and response to stimulation therapy for the treatment of dementia; and victims of violence is not held centrally. On 1 April 2013, Health Education England (HEE) assumed a key if he will make a statement. [151972] role as the new leadership organisation responsible for Norman Lamb: We have not made any assessment of. ensuring that education, training, and workforce cognitive stimulation therapy. Guidance on treatments development drives the highest quality public health and therapies are issued by the National Institute for and patient outcomes. HEE will oversee strategic planning Health and Care Excellence (NICE). In its guidance on and development of the health and public health workforce, dementia, supporting people with dementia and their and allocate education and training resources. This is carers in health and social care (2006), NICE identified set out in ‘Liberating the NHS: Developing the Healthcare cognitive stimulation as an area where more research is Workforce from Design to Delivery’, a copy of which needed. Cognitive Stimulation Therapy is one of a has already been placed in the Library and is available number of treatments and therapies available for dementia. by visiting: Clinicians can, and do, decide which course of treatment www.gov.uk to prescribe to individual patients with dementia, based and searching the document title in the publication on each individual’s specific needs. section. Antipsychotic drugs should only be prescribed for people with dementia when appropriate and when other Fertility non-pharmacological treatments have been considered. The national audit of antipsychotic prescribing for Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for people with dementia (published in July 2012) showed a Health pursuant to the answer of 7 March 2013, 52% reduction in the level of prescribing. Official Report, columns 1155-6W, on fertility, who in the NHS Commissioning Board is responsible for Domestic Violence overseeing infertility service provision across England. [151973] Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many admissions to hospitals in Anna Soubry: NHS England has informed us that England and Wales related to incidents of domestic oversight of the commissioning of NHS fertility services violence and abuse in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10, (c) will be the responsibility of its Medical Directorate 2010-11 and (d) 2011-12; [150553] headed by Professor Sir Bruce Keogh. 497W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 498W

General Medical Council Nanotoxicologies Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health with reference to the High Court ruling on what assessment his Department has made of the Cohen v General Medical Council in 2008, what potential use of analytical electron microscopy in progress his Department is making in reviewing the studies of orphan diseases which may be a consequence General Medical Council’s fitness to practice of nanotoxicologies; and what representations his procedures. [151852] Department has received on the regulation of Dr Poulter: The Department is aware of the Cohen nanotoxicologies. [150584] case. The Department has not carried out a formal review as a direct result of the case, but the following Norman Lamb: The Department has not made any work in relation to the General Medical Council’s fitness assessment of the potential use of analytical electron to practise procedures is being undertaken. microscopy in studies of orphan diseases which may be The Department has commissioned a review of the a consequence of nanotoxicologies. regulation of health care professionals, by the Law The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Commission. This programme of work will advise on Agency (MHRA) believes that current European legislation to modernise the legal framework under Union regulations for medicines and medical devices which the regulatory bodies operate, and provide flexibility are sufficiently stringent and broad in scope to cover to allow them to discharge their statutory duties efficiently. risks associated with nanotechnologies. The MHRA The Commission has considered relevant case law and will keep nanotechnology developments under review the test for impairment of fitness to practise within this. and will work with the European Commission, European The Law Commission’s findings and recommendations Medicines Agency and the European Medical Devices are expected to be finalised in early 2014. Expert Working Group to assess the relevant existing In addition, the General Medical Council has consulted regulations with regard to nanotechnologies. on proposals to improve and modernise its fitness to practise adjudication processes, to enhance the independence NHS: Disclosure of Information of adjudication while continuing to protect patients and the public. The Department is currently working with Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for the General Medical Council towards draft legislation Health pursuant to the answer of 26 March 2013, for consultation to facilitate changes to achieve these Official Report, column 1092W, on NHS: disclosure of objectives. Relevant case law will also be taken into information, what progress the Department has made account within this work. in communicating with former employees who may Housing: Disability have been party to a compromise agreement that may have included a confidentiality clause. [151856] David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the estimated cost to the NHS was of Dr Poulter: A letter, on behalf of the Secretary of adapting the homes of people who have difficulties State for Health, was sent to professional regulators with mobility in the last five years. [151657] and trade unions on 17 April 2013. Norman Lamb: Most housing adaptations are funded The purpose of the letter is to help ensure that as by local authorities and not the national health service, many staff as possible who may have signed a compromise therefore information on the cost to the NHS is not agreement (including agreements reached as a result of collected centrally. judicial mediation) since the introduction of the Public The Disabled Facilities Grant (DFG), which is Interest Disclosure Act (PIDA) in 1999, receive the administered by the Department for Communities and message that regardless of what the agreement they Local Government (DCLG) and distributed by local signed says, they are still able to make a protected authorities (LA), helps people to remain independent in disclosure if they decide to do so. their own homes by providing extra support, devices National health service organisations do not hold and adaptations. Adaptations could range from stair up-to-date contact details for ex-employees and so the lifts and grab rails through to substantial reconfigurations task of writing to every individual through their former to make homes more accessible. In recognition of the employer is not practicable. By enlisting the support of impact of suitable housing on individual wellbeing, the the professional regulators and trade unions to engage Department of Heath topped up the DFG by £40 in with their registrants and members to reinforce the 2012-13. This was in addition to the £745 million already message in the letter, it should be possible to reach those announced for 2010-11 to 2014-15, bringing the total to staff who have signed agreements and then moved £785 million. either to another NHS organisation or to a job within Central Government funding and local authority the wider public or voluntary sector. contributions for the DFG since 2008-09 are shown in the following table. Social Services

£ million 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Total Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many (a) registered managers and (b) DFG 146 157 167 200 670 employees of Care Quality Commissioned-registered (DCLG) companies have been served official warning notices in LA 131 139 137 97 504 contribution each of the last five years; and how many such people have received later warnings or a dismissal. [150960] 499W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 500W

Norman Lamb: The Care Quality Commission (CQC) Confiscation Orders is the independent regulator of health and adult social care providers in England. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home The CQC has regulatory powers in relation to providers Department how many unenforced confiscation orders of regulated activities and registered managers. Other under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 relate to assets than registered managers, it does not have any powers worth over (a) £100,000 and (b) £1 million. [151486] in relation to individual employees of registered providers, but is required to work with other bodies if it has Damian Green: Between the coming into force of the concerns about their competence. Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 and 31 March 2013, confiscation orders not completed are as follows: The CQC has provided the following information. (a) Over £100,000—739 The CQC is unable to provide the information in the (b) Over £1 million—87 format requested because its recording system currently does not distinguish between warning notices that are Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home served to providers and those that are provided to Department how many confiscation orders under the registered managers. A manual search of the records Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 remain unenforced. would incur disproportionate cost. [151656] The total number of warning notices that the CQC has issued under the Health and Social Care Act 2008 is Damian Green: Between the coming into force of the shown in the following table: Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 and 31 March 2012, there were 35,071 confiscation orders issued of which 29,731 Warning notices were completed and 5,340 were not completed.

2010-11 17 Human Trafficking 2011-12 634 2012-13 1,178 Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Total 1,829 Home Department what proportion of the money confiscated by the police relating to brothels, Six providers have been served with enforcement prostitution, pornography and pimps related to measures, excluding warning notices, after being served trafficking; and where information on the amount of a warning notice for a particular outcome. These measures compensation made available to victims of trafficking included one cancellation of registration and five notices is recorded. [151895] of proposal to impose conditions on the providers’ registration to provide services. Damian Green: It is not possible to identify the proportion of money confiscated by the police through brothels, Typhoid prostitution, pornography and pimps related to trafficking. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Joint Asset Recovery Database contains records what steps his Department is taking to ensure that of some compensation payments made to victims of national supplies of typhoid vaccine are adequate. trafficking. Only compensation payments made from [151896] money recovered under a confiscation order are recorded. Anna Soubry: Typhoid is rare in this country and is Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for usually associated with travel to countries where sanitation the Home Department with reference to the answer of is inadequate. 5 July 2010, Official Report, column 77W, on National We understand from manufacturers that vaccine is Referral Mechanism, whether any record has been kept available to order and that they are continuing to take as to the whereabouts and situation of the 358 actions to ensure that supplies are maintained. individuals referred to the National Referral Mechanism between 1 April 2009 and 31 March 2010. [151933]

HOME DEPARTMENT Mr Harper: Routine records of the whereabouts and situation of victims referred into the National Referral Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe Mechanism, once they leave Government-funded support, are not held centrally. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if any of the 60 individuals named on the Immigration list published by the Commission on Security and Co-operation in Europe, individuals involved in the tax Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the fraud against Hermitage and the torture and death of Home Department who will sit on the strategic Sergei Magnitsky, published in June 2012 have visited oversight board overseeing all immigration commands the UK in the last year; and if she will disclose the alongside her Department’s Permanent Secretary. details of any such visits. [151470] [151297] Mr Harper: It is long-standing policy not to disclose Mr Harper [holding answer 17 April 2013]:Weare details of records which may be held in relation to creating a strategic oversight board for all the constituent arrivals in the United Kingdom. The Home Office parts of the immigration system which will be chaired Special Cases Directorate is already aware of the individuals by the Home Office permanent secretary. Membership on the list and has taken the necessary measures to will include representatives from the new UK Visas and prevent them being issued visas for travel to the UK. Immigration and Immigration Enforcement and also 501W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 502W from Border Force, immigration policy, the Identity Among other things, the review will examine whether and Passport Service, operational systems management, there are some offences for which the use of simple and finance and corporate services group. cautions is generally inappropriate, the reasons why multiple cautions are given to some criminals and the Julian Assange difference in the use of cautions by police force areas. The review is a significant step to ensuring that cautions Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the are used correctly, in the interests of justice, and command Home Department what the cost of police actions the confidence of the public. The review will be completed against Mr Julian Assange has been to date. [151210] by the end of May 2013. The figures used to answer the PQ are based on Damian Green: The Home Office does not hold this counts of caution occasions. An individual may have information. This is a matter for the commissioner of more than one caution occasion within each year. Where the Metropolitan Police Service. there is more than one offence on the same occasion only the primary offence is counted for which a caution Members: Correspondence is given. In addition please note that the police force information only relates to the most recent caution and Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for the police forces for previous cautions/convictions may differ. Home Department when she intends to reply to the Table 1 (part i) and table 2 (part ii) show the number letters of 3 January 2013 and 11 February 2013 from of previous cautions for offenders committing an offence the hon. Member for Cardiff West relating to a and receiving a caution in each year from 2002 to June constituent, Mr Robert Kay. [151840] 2012, for England and Wales. I have placed a copy of the tables in the House Library. Mr Harper: I replied to the hon. Member on 16 April 2013. Recall of Parliament

Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will arrange for the hon. Home Department what estimate she has made of Member for Walsall North to receive a reply to her the additional cost of police and security as a result of letter of 4 March 2013 to the chief executive of the UK the recall of Parliament on 10 April 2013. [151777] Border Agency, CTS ref B6777/13. [151841] Damian Green: This information is not collected centrally. Mr Harper: The Home Office replied to the hon. The cost of security services on the parliamentary estate Member on 16 April 2013. is a matter for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Passports: Gender Recognition Authority (IPSA). Seasonal Agricultural Workers’ Scheme Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if her Department will estimate the John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the cost of allowing a non-gender option on passports. Home Department how many inspections of the [151697] accommodation provided for workers on the seasonal agricultural workers scheme took place in 2012. Mr Harper: A detailed costing exercise has not been [151502] undertaken as the Government will not be seeking to change the current male (M) and female (F) markings Mr Harper: In 2012, the Home Office undertook 64 on British passports. inspections of Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme (SAWS) farms with accommodation. The Home Office’s Police Cautions monitoring of operators includes visiting farms that employ SAWS workers to monitor work and Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for the accommodation conditions. Home Department how many people issued with a Employers must provide accommodation for workers caution had (a) no previous cautions, (b) one to five under SAWS but workers do not have to accept it and previous cautions, (c) six to 10 previous cautions, (d) can find their own accommodation if they choose to 11 to 20 previous cautions and (e) over 20 previous do so. cautions in each year from 2002 to 2012 (i) in England and Wales and (ii) by each police authority area. UK Border Agency [140269] Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for the Jeremy Wright: I have been asked to reply on behalf Home Department what steps her Department is of the Ministry of Justice. taking to maximise the efficiency and effectiveness of The use of cautions is at its lowest level for more than the UK Border Agency and its operations. [151485] five years, as is the number of cautions issued to those who have a previous criminal record. However, the Mr Harper: On 26 March the Secretary of State for public and victims have a right to expect that people the Home Department announced that the UK Border who commit serious crimes should be brought before a Agency would be replaced by two new operational court. On 3 April 2013 we launched a review into the commands sitting within the Home Office. UK Visas use of cautions which will focus on the use of cautions and Immigration will be a high-volume service that for serious offences and persistent offenders. makes high-quality decisions about who comes here, 503W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 504W with a culture of customer satisfaction for business fossil fuel subsidies that encourage wasteful consumption’ travellers and visitors who want to come here legally. at the February 2013 Finance Ministers’ meeting. This Immigration Enforcement will have law enforcement at work is currently being taken forward at expert level its heart and get tough on those who break our immigration through theG20 Energy Sustainability working group, laws. Together with the creation of a new strategic which will feed back on progress to Ministers. oversight board to ensure all component parts of the system are working together effectively, this reorganisation Sri Lanka will maximise the efficiency and effectiveness of our immigration system with each command having strong leadership and a distinct culture and focus. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Visits Abroad he has made of the BBC World Service’s decision to suspend broadcasts in Sri Lanka; and what discussions Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the he has had with the government of Sri Lanka about Home Department what her Department’s budget was interference with that service. [151213] for overseas travel for officials and Ministers in 2012-13. [151360] Alistair Burt: The British Government is aware of the BBC’s decision to suspend broadcasts on the Sri Lankan James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not allocate Broadcasting Corporation (SLBC). According to the budgets to this level of detail and therefore does not BBC statement made on 26 March, this decision followed hold this information. ’continued interruption and interference of BBC Tamil programming on SLBC’. We are concerned at reports of interference with FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE programming, and consider the provision of impartial news to be very important as do many people who Burma listened to the service. We continue to have serious concerns about human Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for rights in Sri Lanka, including in regards to freedom of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has opinion and expression, and in light of recent attacks discussed with his Burmese counterpart the issue of on a number of journalists. During Sri Lanka’s Universal withdrawal by the Burmese Army from ethnic states of Periodic Review in November 2012, we recommended Burma. [151406] that Sri Lanka should ensure that Mr Swire: We continue to emphasise to all sides ’all citizens are able to freely express their opinions and beliefs involved in Burma’s ethnic conflicts that only comprehensive without fear of reprisal or retribution, and to invite the Special Rapporteur on freedom of opinion and expression to visit’. political negotiation will lead to a sustainable peace across Burma. The role of the military in that process is The recommendation was rejected by the Sri Lankan an important part of those discussions. We acknowledge Government. the progress the Burmese Government has made in Officials at our high commission in Colombo regularly signing 10 ceasefire agreements with ethnic armed groups. make representations to the Sri Lankan Government We continue to encourage the Burmese authorities and about our human rights concerns in Sri Lanka, including the Kachin Independence Organisation to move towards on freedom of expression. The UK co-sponsored the securing the last outstanding ceasefire agreement in Sri Lanka resolution passed in the Human Rights Kachin State. Council on 21 March, and we welcome its adoption As part of our support to the peace process, we are with the support of a majority of Council members. We working with experts with experience of inter-communal look to the Sri Lankan Government to implement the trust- and peace-building in Northern Ireland to support recommendations contained in the resolution and comply the peace process in Burma and to encourage Burma’s with their obligations under international human rights own reconciliation efforts. The Senior Minister of State, law and international humanitarian law, which include my noble Friend the right hon. Baroness Warsi, met the protection of the safety of journalists. with a delegation of Burmese Ministers, including the lead negotiator for the peace process for the Government, Tibet Aung Min, on 15 April to discuss the peace process and how the UK can best support it. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Fossil Fuels: Subsidies Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his (a) EU, (b) UN and Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) US counterparts about Tibet and promotion of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has dialogue with the Chinese authorities. [151278] to discuss fossil fuel subsidy reform at (a) G8 and (b) G20 meetings in 2013. [151566] Mr Swire: We regularly discuss a range of human rights issues, including Tibet, at official levels with the Sajid Javid: I have been asked to reply on behalf of EU, UN and US. We raised the issue of Tibet through the Treasury. the EU at the UN Human Rights Council in September The UK continues to support global efforts to phase 2012 and we will continue to raise our concerns about out fossil fuel subsidies. G20 Finance Ministers reaffirmed the situation in Tibet through multilateral fora and by their long-standing commitment to phase out ‘inefficient working with our like-minded partners. 505W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 506W

Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ministerial- Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent quarterly-returns-hospitality-gifts-overseas-travel-and- representations he has made to the government of meetings-with-external-organisations China regarding self-immolations in Tibet; and what reports he has received on the criminalisation of self-immolations and the arrest of relatives and friends TRANSPORT on charges of incitement. [151279] Aviation Mr Swire: We regularly raise our concerns about self-immolations in Tibet with the Chinese authorities. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for I made a statement on 17 December 2012 where I Transport what estimate he has made of the cost to the urged both sides to exercise restraint and called for the public purse attributable to delayed commercial resumption of meaningful dialogue: passenger flights in each of the last five years. [152010] http://tinyurl.com/amc4gjw Mr Simon Burns: The Department for Transport has The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth made no estimate of the cost to the public purse attributable Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond to delayed commercial passenger flights in each of the (Yorks) (Mr Hague), responded to a question in the last five years. House of Commons on 5 March 2013, Official Report, column 817, on the issue of Tibet. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) officials Transport by how many hours commercial passenger raised their concerns over self-immolations with the flights were delayed in each of the last five years. Chinese embassy on 12 April 2013. The annual FCO [152011] Human Rights Report, published on Monday 15 April, outlines our concerns regarding the situation in Tibet. Mr Simon Burns: The Civil Aviation Authority collects We receive regular reports on the situation in Tibet and publishes data on delays at 10 UK airports. Estimates from non-governmental organisations. We are concerned of the total number of hours by which commercial about reports referring to the criminalisation of self- passenger flights were delayed in the last five years, immolations and we are seeking further information based on the CAA punctuality statistics, are given in the about this issue. following table. We will continue to raise our concerns with the Estimated number of hours by which commercial passenger flights Chinese authorities, including at the next UK-China were delayed at the 10 UK airports for which data are available, Human Rights Dialogue. 2008-12 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Birmingham 25,600 18,100 23,800 14,400 14,300 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what requests Edinburgh 25,600 18,300 23,400 16,600 15,500 have been made to China for (a) British officials and Gatwick 82,400 60,100 88,100 51,000 53,400 (b) non-governmental organisations to visit Tibet in Glasgow 23,300 14,600 18,500 12,700 12,900 the last 12 months for which figures are available; and Heathrow 134,800 93,200 121,700 94,800 103,700 [151280] what response was received. London 18,200 8,700 9,800 7,800 7,300 City Mr Swire: In 2012 we made two official requests to Luton 22,400 17,100 23,900 14,800 13,800 visit the Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR) both of Manchester 58,500 38,100 51,500 37,600 38,400 which were refused by the Chinese authorities. Newcastle 12,700 8,500 13,000 7,500 7,600 However, during the last 12 months, British diplomats Stansted 36,200 28,200 34,200 18,100 19,000 have made regular visits to Tibetan areas of China Total (10 439,800 304,900 407,900 275,300 285,900 outside the TAR. We do not keep records of non- airports) governmental organisations who have requested access to travel to Tibet. Dementia

Visits Abroad Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether his Department has a dementia Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for strategy. [151834] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what details of (a) itineraries, (b) costs and (c) other aspects of Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has overseas visits in support of trade and investment by no specific strategy for dementia. However, the Department Ministers in his Department are published (i) routinely recognises the importance of helping people live well and (ii) on request. [150611] with dementia. The Accessibility Action Plan identifies the importance Mr Swire: Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) of working with transport operators on staff training Ministers have a varied programme when they travel and best practice regarding support for disabled passengers, overseas, with trade and investment a priority on all for example travel training schemes, including those bilateral visits. with dementia. Details of all overseas visits undertaken by Ministers The plan can be found at the following website: are published on a quarterly basis on the GOV.UK https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/accessibility- website. action-plan 507W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 508W

High Speed 2 Railway Line Mr Simon Burns: The Government remains committed to seeking to implement an appropriate form of rail Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for decentralisation in those parts of England where it is Transport if he will publish the most recent research sensible to do so. The Department for Transport is commissioned by his Department into the value of continuing informal discussions with those bodies who time used for transport appraisals and High Speed 2 submitted expressions of interest in response to the (HS2) business time savings; which research body consultation carried out on rail decentralisation in 2012. produced that research and under what remit; and Railways: Bus Services whether he proposes that the findings of that research will be incorporated into the assessment of HS2 to be deposited with the hybrid bill. [151934] Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proportion of passenger rail journeys Mr Simon Burns: The Department has commissioned involved (a) planned and (b) unplanned bus the Institute for Transport Studies, Leeds and its associated replacement services for each of the last five years for subcontractors to undertake research into the business which figures are available. [150916] value of time used for transport appraisals. The remit of this research project is to investigate the feasibility of Norman Baker: This information requested is not different approaches to valuing business travel time held by the Department for Transport. The Office of savings. Rail Regulation has published the total number of rail replacement bus service hours for the years 2009-10 to The Department plans to publish the output of this 2011-12, which are as follows: research and where relevant the findings will be incorporated into the next iteration of the HS2 Economic Case. 2009-10: 154531 2010-11: 129662 Highways Agency: Cumbria 2011-12: 121901 I continue to encourage train operators to reduce John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for wherever practicable the use of buses in place of rail Transport how many staff the Highways Agency services. I announced last year that we intend removing employs at its sites in Cumbria; and what proportion of - from October 2013 - the entitlement for those operating those are paid at or above the relevant level of the rail replacement bus services to claim Bus Service Operator living wage. [152033] Grant, to ensure that such services are no longer subsidised by the taxpayer. Stephen Hammond: The Highways Agency has 17 staff based in Cumbria. They are all paid more than the Railways: Franchises living wage threshold. Motorcycles Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many train operating companies have taken legal action against his Department following the Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for cancellation of rail franchise competitions. [151010] Transport what recent assessment he has made of the contribution of roadworthiness problems to Mr Simon Burns: Following the decision to cancel the motorcycle accidents. [151815] Great Western franchise competition in January 2013, each of the four shortlisted bidders commenced legal Stephen Hammond: While no specific assessment has proceedings to recover their bid costs. However, these been made 1% of all motorcycles involved in accidents proceedings have since been dismissed by consent with in GB in 2011 had at least one vehicle defect recorded as no order as to costs. a contributory factor. Legal proceedings were brought by one of the shortlisted Perry Barr Station bidders on the Intercity West Coast refranchising competition prior to the decision to cancel that competition Mr Khalid Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State in October 2012. Once the competition under challenge for Transport whether any central Government funding was cancelled, these proceedings became irrelevant. has been allocated to the improvement or However, the proceedings remain stayed while the parties redevelopment of Perry Barr railway station; and reach agreement as to costs. whether his Department has received any applications for such funding. [151301] Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what his most recent estimate is of the cost Norman Baker: No central Government funding has to his Department of each cancelled rail franchise been allocated to the improvement or redevelopment of competition. [151019] Perry Barr railway station. Nor has any application for such funding been made to the Department for Transport. Mr Simon Burns: The most recent estimate of costs for the two cancelled rail franchising competitions are: Railways West Coast: £3.725 million; Great Western: £1.397 million. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what his policy is on the devolution of Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for responsibility for regional rail services; and if he will Transport with reference to his Department’s press make a statement. [151018] notice published on 25 March 2013, whether the 509W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 510W statement that a full franchise timetable has not Pay previously been published is correct. [151051] Mr Simon Burns: The press notice refers to publishing Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales a “detailed transparent timetable”. Although a high what criteria are used in (a) his Department and (b) level timetable has previously been published at: each public body for which he is responsible to determine which officials receive bonus payments. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/4020/rail-franchising-timetable.pdf [151142] the 26 March 2013 announcement provided detailed Stephen Crabb: The key criterion for senior civil dates for every franchise competition (namely publication servants to be paid a bonus is that their performance of OJEU notice, ITT and contract award dates) in must have exceeded agreed delivery objectives during addition to the start date for each franchise as part of the previous performance year. In the Wales Office, the Prior Information Notice. these objectives are set in order to deliver the Wales Railways: Greater London Office Business Plan. The Wales Office is not an employer in its own right. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Our permanent staff are employees of the Ministry of Transport what his policy is on devolution of the Justice (MOJ), with other staff members on loan from remaining former Network South East rail services to the Welsh Government or other Government Transport for London. [151016] Departments. MOJ staff below the senior civil service Mr Simon Burns: The Government is currently in can be paid in-year and end-of-year non-consolidated discussion with the Mayor of London and Transport performance related payments to award exceptional for London regarding the Mayor’s proposals to take performance, as set out in the MOJ’s performance over responsibility for the inner suburban parts of the management system and Reward and Recognition Southeastern and Greater Anglia (West Anglia) franchises. policy. The policy states that exceptional performance A decision on whether to proceed with further devolution should further the aims and objectives of the is expected later in the spring. Department or should meet an exceptional shorter term operational challenge. Railways: Standards Those members of staff on loan to the Wales Office from the Welsh Government or other Government Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Departments are subject to the bonus policies and Transport what estimate he has made of the cost to the criteria of their home Department. public purse of delayed passenger rail services in each of the last five years. [152009] Recruitment Norman Baker: Any such costs are not identifiable from the financial information held by the Department. Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for We do however regard as important good performance Wales how much his Department spent on advertising by the rail industry in terms of punctuality and reliability. job vacancies in (a) 2005, (b) 2006, (c) 2007, (d) 2008 Shipping: Training and (e) 2009. [151087]

Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Crabb: In 2006, the Wales Office spent Transport what assessment he has made of the effects £3,950 on advertising job vacancies. on the workboat industry of the lack of an The Wales Office spent nothing on advertising job internationally recognised Standards of Training vacancies in 2005, 2007, 2008 and 2009. Certification and Watchkeeping certificate of competency for officers on workboats under 500 gross Staff tonnage issued by the UK. [152200] Stephen Hammond: Further to my answer of 19 March Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 2013, Official Report, column 576W, the Maritime and how many days of work were carried out by officials in Coastguard Agency has prepared an Impact Assessment his Department on average in each of the last five which is currently progressing through the required years; and what the total salary cost was of officials in regulatory procedures. each year. [151116] Stephen Crabb: The Wales Office is not an employer WALES in its own right. Our permanent staff are employees of the Ministry of Justice (MOJ), with other staff Domestic Visits members on loan from the Welsh Government or other Government Departments. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for The Wales Office became a separate Government Wales pursuant to the answer of 19 March 2013, Department on 1 April 2011. Prior to this it was part of Official Report, column 668W, on domestic visits, the MOJ, and form part of the MOJ figures. which constituencies in Wales he has not visited since taking up his post. [149923] The average total number of days that should be worked by each member of staff in the Wales Office is Stephen Crabb: I refer the hon. Member to my 225. This takes into account weekends, bank holidays written ministerial statement of 15 April 2013, Official and privilege days, and assumes 25 days of annual Report, columns 22-4WS. leave. 511W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 512W

We calculate the total number of days worked by intends that this evidence will be placed in the public Wales Office staff in 2011-12 as 14,490, and the total domain; and when he intends to publish the (i) fiscal salary cost as £3,002,000. and (ii) other economic parts of the Scotland Analysis Data for 2012-13 are not yet available. Information series. [151669] on staff numbers and costs will be published in the 2012-13 Wales Office Annual Report. Copies of the Michael Moore: The Scotland Office, HM Treasury report will be laid in the Library of the House when and several other UK Government Departments are published. drawing on a variety of sources and consulting expert stakeholders as part of the Scotland analysis programme. Papers in the Scotland analysis series will SCOTLAND be published throughout 2013 and 2014. Computers Government Procurement Card Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many (a) desktop computers, (b) laptop Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for computers and (c) tablet devices his Department has Scotland with reference to the Freedom of Information purchased in the last two years. [151345] request responded to by his Department on 23 January David Mundell: The Scotland Office has not 2013 and published on 3 April 2013, on Government purchased any (a) desktop computers or (c) tablet Procurement Cards, what the purpose was of the stay devices in the last two years. at the Holiday Inn, Milton Keynes in July 2011. [151299] The Scotland Office did not purchase any (b) laptop computers in 2011. In 2012, to assist with business David Mundell: The purpose of the stay at the continuity and to allow for more flexible working, the Holiday Inn Milton Keynes in July 2011 was for the Scotland Office replaced 15 out-of-date desktop special adviser to the Secretary of State to accompany computers and one out-of-date laptop computer with the Secretary of State on official business at the British 16 laptop computers. Grand Prix from early on Sunday 10 July. Dementia Public Expenditure Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his Department has a dementia Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State strategy. [151833] for Scotland what assessment he has made of (a) the David Mundell: All Scotland Office staff are on criteria by which the future financial settlement and secondment from other Government bodies, constitutional arrangements for Scotland should be principally the Scottish Government and the Ministry determined and (b) the desirability or otherwise of of Justice, who remain their employers. All staff in the replacing the funding arrangement determined by the Office are covered by their parent bodies’ health Barnett Formula by a needs-based allocation of strategies. Staff also have access to an independent government finances. [151650] health care provider. Devolution David Mundell: The Government is committed to devolving powers to the most appropriate level within Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State a strong United Kingdom. The Scotland Act 2012 for Scotland if the Government will give consideration delivers the greatest transfer of financial powers from to negotiating a stronger devolution settlement with Westminster to Holyrood in 300 years. The Act delivers the Scottish Government; and which (a) fiscal and (b) the recommendations of the Caiman Commission other economic powers the Government would which were based on evidence and consensus. consider devolving as part of such a settlement. Implementation of the Act will continue to 2016 [151667] when the new Scottish rate of income tax is introduced. The Government will report annually on the David Mundell: The Scotland Act 2012 delivers the implementation of the Act. greatest transfer of financial powers in 300 years from Westminster to Holyrood. The measures include the The Government’s position on the Barnett Formula creation of a Scottish rate of income tax, devolution of is clear: at this time the priority must be to reduce the stamp duty land tax and landfill tax and increased deficit and any change to the current system of funding borrowing powers for the Scottish Government. The must await the stabilisation of the public finances. Scotland Act 2012 also created a power to devolve Staff further tax raising powers to the Scottish Parliament in the future, if the criteria set out in the Command Paper No 7973 published alongside the Scotland Bill at Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for introduction are met. Implementation of the Scotland Scotland how many days of work were carried out by Act 2012 will continue to 2016 when the new Scottish officials in his Department on average in each of the rate of income tax is introduced. The Government will last five years; and what the total salary cost was of report annually on the implementation of the Act. officials in each year. [151113] Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not employ for Scotland from which sources the Government is staff directly. All staff that join the Office do so on an taking evidence to inform its view on the best (a) fiscal assignment, secondment or loan agreement from other and (b) other economic options for Scotland; when he Government bodies but principally from the Scottish 513W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 514W

Government or the Ministry of Justice, Consequently, to claim travel and subsistence expenses for visiting staff working in the Scotland Office have different offices of their organisation and that evidence is terms and conditions, depending on their parent required to support any expenditure incurred. Whether bodies. The information is not available in the form expenses paid to an individual who is home-based are requested. taxable or not must be considered on a case by case Salary costs are published in the Annual Reports of basis depending on the duties performed. the Scotland Office and Office of the Advocate Ivory General, copies of which are held in the House Library. Transport Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for priorities for the G8 Summit in Northern Ireland are Scotland what steps he is taking to improve transport on tackling elephant poaching and the illegal sale of links between Scotland, Northern Ireland and ivory. [150412] England. [150901] Richard Benyon: The UK is committed to tackling David Mundell: Scotland Office Ministers are in the illegal trade in ivory and elephant poaching, most close and regular contact with the Department for notably through wide-ranging action being taken under Transport regarding those transport routes for which the convention on international trade in endangered the UK Government has responsibility. species (CITES). At a recent Conference of Parties to Visits Abroad CITES, a package of measures was agreed to combat illegal ivory trade, including the development of Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for national ivory action plans for countries that are Scotland what his Department’s budget was for significantly implicated in illegal trade and the overseas travel for officials and Ministers in 2012-13. establishment of an Ivory Enforcement Task Force. [151364] The UK strongly supports these initiatives and will continue to play an active role in strengthening the David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not set a advice, assistance and tools provided to help elephant specific budget for overseas travel for officials and range states enforce CITES controls and combat illegal Ministers. wildlife trade. In addition to the concerted action taking place through CITES, we continue to raise these matters PRIME MINISTER through a variety of international forums. Short Money Phenylbutazone

Jim Shannon: To ask the Prime Minister if he will Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for cease the provision of short money to hon. Members Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will publish and members of the House of Lords who refuse to take the names and addresses of each of the owners of the their seats. [150900] 12 phenylbutazone contaminated horses believed to Mr Lansley: I have been asked to reply. have entered the human food chain since 1 January 2012. [148515] “Short money” as provided for Opposition parties in the House of Commons under the terms of the Mr Heath: The information requested has been resolution of the House first introduced in 1975, is not withheld under section 40(2) of the Freedom of available to parties whose Members have not taken the Information Act as the information constitutes Oath. “Representative money” as provided for under personal data relating to third parties which they would the terms of the House resolution of 8 February 2006 not expect to be made public. is provided. Such provision is a matter for the House Disclosure of this information is also likely to breach itself to determine. The payment of allowances to Peers the first data protection principle in schedule 1 to the is a matter for the House of Lords. Data Protection Act, which relates to the fair and lawful processing of personal data. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Summaries of the outcomes of follow-up inspections into non-compliant results under the UK’s statutory Allowances residues surveillance programme, operated under Council Directive 96/23/EC, are published in papers Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for considered by the independent Veterinary Residues Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance is Committee (VRC). These can be seen at: given to senior officials in each of the arm’s length http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/vrc/reports/surveillance.html bodies of his Department who have their home address as their main place of employment, on the use of travel These are available in the Library of the House, as and subsistence expenses for visiting offices of those mentioned in the answer I gave on 18 March 2013, Official Report, column 530W. bodies. [149328] These inspections revealed a number of different Richard Benyon: Guidance provided to senior staff reasons for the presence of phenylbutazone in the who are home based by the Food and Environment carcases, including lack of awareness of the rules by Research Agency (FERA), Environment Agency (EA), some owners, not being able to trace ownership Marine Management Organisation (MMO) and sufficiently far back to establish who may have Natural England (NE) confirms that they are entitled administered phenylbutazone and veterinary error in 515W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 516W not signing the horse out of the food chain after Timber: EU Law administration. There have also been cases where the non-compliance has arisen through that horse having Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for unintended access to feed containing phenylbutazone Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he prescribed for another horse. Inspections have not has taken to make UK companies aware of the revealed deliberate or sufficiently serious shortcomings implementation of the EU Illegal Timber (Due to consider prosecutions. Those interviewed have been Diligence) Regulation. [151214] reminded of the rules that require horses treated with phenylbutazone to be signed out of the food chain. Richard Benyon: DEFRA officials have engaged The chief veterinary officer and the Food Standards closely with UK companies and trade organisations Agency CEO wrote a joint letter to the Veterinary throughout the development of the EU timber Record reminding veterinarians of their responsibilities regulation and its implementation in the UK, raising in this area, which can be viewed at: awareness through regular stakeholder meetings and www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/letter-from-defra-and-fsa- consultation. The National Measurement Office is ref-horse-passports responsible for enforcing the EU timber regulation in and has been placed in the Library of the House. the UK and a key part of its remit is to raise awareness among the industry. To date the National Summaries of the results of follow-up inspections of Measurement Office has: non-compliant results from the Food Standards Agency’s 100% testing programme, introduced from Set up a website and provided updates to the 2,700 individuals and companies that have signed up to its mailing list; 30 January 2013, will also be considered by the VRC and published. Information from these inspections Worked with journalists to ensure the right message is put out in key trade publications; added to previous ones will provide more evidence on the most common reasons for these horses being Established and maintained regular contact with trade and business associations; presented for human consumption which can help target information campaigns to owners and their Organised, attended and presented at sector-specific seminars; veterinarians. Attended trade shows and numerous meetings with individual companies and wider working groups; Recruitment Answered phone and e-mail enquiries from hundreds of individuals, companies and organisations. Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for Stakeholder engagement and awareness raising Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much his activities are a priority for the National Measurement Department spent on advertising job vacancies in (a) Office over the next 12 months. It will be exploring all 2005, (b) 2006, (c) 2007, (d) 2008 and (e) 2009. possible avenues for making UK industry aware of the [151084] EU timber regulation, and supporting UK companies in meeting their obligations. Richard Benyon: This information is not held centrally and could be provided only by incurring disproportionate cost. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Staff Burma Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many days Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for of work were carried out by officials in (a) his International Development what support her Department and (b) each of its agencies and Department provides to those affected by land non-departmental public bodies on average in each of confiscation in Burma. [151149] the last five years; and what the total salary cost was of officials in each year. [151106] Mr Duncan: DFID is working with civil society organisations to help establish procedures for access to Richard Benyon: All civil and public servants legal aid over land disputes. DFID is also working employed by core DEFRA, its executive agencies and through the Livelihoods and Food Security Trust Fund the majority of NDPBs (except those listed here) are with United Nations Habitat to pilot mapping expected, on average, to attend for 220.5 working days technology, linked to the registration and digitisation per year. of land ownership records, and to help formulate a Public servants employed by Royal Botanic Gardens, prioritised land reform agenda including land tenure, Kew are expected, on average, to attend for development and administration. 221.5 working days per year. Public servants employed by the Environment Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency are expected, on average, to attend for 222 International Development what estimate she has working days per year. made of the proportion of people made homeless by Cyclone Nargis in Burma who have now been The total salary costs for core DEFRA, executive rehoused. [151248] agencies and NDPBs are shown on page 113 of the annual report and accounts which can be viewed at: Mr Duncan: DFID does not hold recent data on this https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-report- issue. The fourth and final report prepared by the and-accounts-2011-to-2012--6 Tripartite Core Group in July 2010 assessed the status The costs in the annual accounts will also include of repairs to dwellings for households who continued additional work carried out through overtime costs. to live in the same compound as before Cyclone Nargis. 517W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 518W

Of those households reviewed that were living in the Sajid Javid: HM Treasury receives their IT services same compound, 63% of shelters were fully repaired; under a contract signed in 2009. The contract is for five 13% were almost fully repaired; 21% were partially years duration and provides a fully managed shared repaired and 4% were not repaired. ICT service, called off from the “Public Sector Flex” framework agreement. Recruitment The managed service includes the provision and Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for maintenance of desktop computers and laptop International Development what amount her computers necessary for the Flex service. In addition Department spent on advertising job vacancies in each the Department has purchased seven specialist desktop year from 2005 to 2009. [150682] computers. Staff can be provided with a tablet device when there Mr Duncan: In 2009 DFID upgraded the financial is an appropriate business need. The Department has management system used to record all expenditure. purchased two tablet devices for departmental use. Between 2005 and 2007 the financial management system did not record advertising expenditure as a specific item. The totals for 2008 and 2009 were Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks £143,500 and £133,500. Syria Dan Rogerson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 21 January 2013, Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 100W, on excise duties: International Development if her Department will take alcoholic drinks, (1) if he will provide a breakdown of steps to address lack of access to medicines, vaccines the types of alcohol duty repaid under the drawback and other aspects of healthcare in the south-western duty regime in (a) 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011; and parts of Aleppo City in Syria. [151317] what estimate his Department has made of the level of drawback duty regime fraud in (i) 2009, (ii) 2010 and Justine Greening: The UK continues to support the (iii) 2011; [151853] provision of medical services and supplies inside Syria, (2) what methodology his Department uses to including contested and opposition-held areas, estimate the level of drawback duty regime fraud. although due to the nature of the security situation we [151854] are unable to name our partners or the geographical area in which they work. Our funding has provided over 147,000 medical consultations. We will continue to Sajid Javid: The drawback paid by alcohol tax type monitor the need for greater access to medicines, for the requested periods is as follows: vaccines and other health care supplies in Aleppo. £ million

Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 International Development what recent reports she has received on the provision of assistance to Lebanese Beer 54.6 families hosting Syrian refugees; and what steps her Wine/cider 13.8 Department is taking to improve infrastructure in Spirit 5 places in Lebanon where there is a high concentration of refugees to help them integrate into their host 2009-10 communities. [151319] Beer 57.6 Wine/cider 23.9 Justine Greening: The UK is providing £19,436,818 to Lebanon for support with the Syrian refugee Spirit 3.2 response. UK-funded humanitarian partners are also delivering clean water, undertaking upgrades to 2010-11 sanitation infrastructure and providing schooling Beer 56.7 among Lebanese host communities. This support is Wine/cider 48.5 benefiting thousands of Syrian refugees and Lebanese Spirit 5.1 people alike. The UK has also funded British technical assistance to the Lebanese Government to support 2011-12 their work in responding to the humanitarian situation hosting Syrian and Palestinian refugees from Syria and Beer 49 Lebanese returnees. Wine/cider 40 Spirit 4.2

The most recent estimate of the level of drawback- TREASURY related fraud available is 2009. In 2009 HMRC Computers estimated the level to be approximately £25 million per annum. HMRC have a number of policies, and Mr Redwood: To ask the Chancellor of the undertake enforcement and compliance activity, to Exchequer how many (a) desktop computers, (b) tackle drawback-related fraud. laptop computers and (c) tablet devices his The methodology for estimating the level of Department has purchased in the last two years. drawback related fraud was published in HMRC’s [151347] Impact Assessment on “withdrawing warehousing for 519W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 520W export for claimants of drawback” dated 22 April 2009 Mr Gauke: The number of estates paying inheritance published alongside the Budget that year. It is available tax left on death in 2009-10 by Government Office at: Region (GOR) is published in National Statistics http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukia/2009/110 Table 12.10, available from the HMRC website at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/inheritance/table12-10.pdf Financial Services: Cyprus For the 2008-09 ’year of death’, the numbers are Dr McCrea: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer given in the following table: what estimate he has made of the potential cost to the public purse of any UK financial assistance to Cyprus. Area codes Region IHT (£ million) [150947] UKC North East 43 (England) John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer UKD North West 141 what estimate he has made of the potential cost to the (England) public purse of any UK financial assistance to Cyprus. UKE Yorkshire and The 105 [150139] Humber UKF East Midlands 126 Greg Clark: Cyprus has officially requested financial (England) assistance from euro area member states through the UKG West Midlands 123 European Stability Mechanism (ESM) and from the (England) International Monetary Fund (IMF). Cyprus reached UKH East of England 210 agreement with the IMF, European Commission and UKI London 501 European Central Bank on the key elements of a ¤10 UKJ South East 558 billion financial assistance programme on 25 March (England) 2013. UKK South West 283 As part of that programme, the IMF has reached (England) staff level agreement for a ¤1 billion Extended Fund UKL Wales 53 Facility agreement with Cyprus. As a member of the UKM Scotland 231 IMF, the UK will be involved in any IMF contribution UKN Northern Ireland 42 to the programme. The decision to provide IMF United Kingdom 2,416 funding still has to be agreed by the IMF Board, on which the UK has a seat. The UK lends to the IMF as This information is not available by region (GOR) an institution and not to particular programmes; for earlier years. therefore it is not possible to provide an exact estimate Data for future years will be published to the of the UK’s contribution to individual IMF publication schedule which is available from the programmes. HMRC website at The programme has yet to be formally approved by http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/updates/annual-plan.pdf the euro area-only ESM. The UK is not a member of the ESM and therefore has no exposure to financial For Scotland, receipts of inheritance tax since 1998 assistance provided by it, either directly or indirectly are published in the Government Expenditure and through the EU budget. Revenue Scotland publications and are available on the Scottish Government’s website: Gift Aid: Kilmarnock http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/ Economy/GERS/Publications Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the For Northern Ireland, the data is also published in Exchequer how many charities registered in its Net Fiscal Balance Report, available at : Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency applied for http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/northern-ireland-net-fiscal-balance- Gift Aid in each of the last five years; and how much report-09-10-10-11.pdf Gift Aid was received by such charities in each of those years. [151789] This holds IHT receipts data going back to 2002/03 (table 4.3). Sajid Javid: HM Revenue and Customs does not Note that in both the Scottish and NI publications separately identify Gift Aid claims by regions of the year refers to the year of receipt rather than the the UK. year of death. This means that the data will not match Amounts of tax repaid to charities in the UK on that from table 12.10 in the National Statistics. For donations under Gift Aid are published in Table 10.1 years prior to those appearing in these reports the on the HMRC website at: published receipts, net of repayments are as follows: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/charity.htm In 2011-12 a total of £1,076 million (provisional £ million figure) was repaid to UK charities under Gift Aid. Receipts Scotland Northern Ireland Inheritance Tax 1997-98 137 29 1998-99 153 28 Pamela Nash: To ask the Chancellor of the 1999-2000 158 30 Exchequer how much revenue was raised from 2000-01 149 37 inheritance tax in (a) each Government office region, 2001-02 169 28 (b) Wales, (c) Scotland and (d) Northern Ireland in 2002-03 142 31 each of the last 30 financial years. [151847] 521W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 522W

Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties £ million Receipts Scotland Northern Ireland Simon Hart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his Department will review the date at which cars 2003-04 155 26 become exempt from vehicle excise duty to ensure that 2004-05 164 28 classic cars are not lost as a result of falling outside the 2005-06 198 33 40-year age requirement. [151308] 2006-07 224 29 2007-08 265 51 Sajid Javid: Budget 2013 announced that the 2008-09 173 43 Government will extend the cut-off date from which 2009-10 144 32 classic vehicles are exempt from vehicle excise duty 2010-11 159 39 (VED) by one year. From 1 April 2014 a vehicle manufactured before 1 January 1974 will be exempt Separate data for England and Wales and from paying VED. information for earlier years is not available. The Government keep all taxes under review. Minimum Wage Pay John Woodcock: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many prosecutions were brought Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer against companies in each sector of the economy for what criteria are used in (a) his Department and (b) breaches of minimum wage legislation in each of the each public body for which he is responsible to last three years. [152032] determine which officials receive bonus payments. [151141] Mr Gauke: There have been two prosecutions in the last three years. Further details are in the following Sajid Javid: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I table: gave her on 19 March 2013, Official Report, column 600W, which set out the criteria for bonus payments at Standard Industry HM Treasury and its agencies. Date Employer Classification Revenue and Customs 23 June 2010 Benjamin Gains Human Health and (trading as BG Social Work Activities Optical) John Woodcock: To ask the Chancellor of the 26 February 2013 Kenneth Nnaemeka Administrative and Exchequer how many people were in the HM Revenue Ikerunanwa (trading Support Service as Widescope Security Activities and Customs national minimum wage team Services) monitoring the North West in each of the last five years. [152031] Mobile Phones Mr Gauke: The following table contains the number Jenny Chapman: To ask the Chancellor of the of staff based in the north-west at the end of March for Exchequer which company holds the largest contract to each year requested: provide mobile telephony services to his Department; how much was paid under the contract in the last year Financial year Number of staff for which figures are available; how many individual services are covered by the contract; when the contract 2008/09 16 was awarded; when the contract will next be renewed; 2009/10 14 2010/11 14 and for how long. [151709] 2011/12 14 Sajid Javid: Vodafone Corporate Ltd provides 2012/13 15 mobile telephony services to HM Treasury. The spend in the financial year 2012-13 was £225,000 (excluding Staff VAT). The contract covers mobile, 3G and Blackberry services. The contract was awarded in January 2009 Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and will expire in April 2015. Plans to replace the how many days of work were carried out by officials in current contract will be finalised in 2014. (a) his Department and (b) each of its agencies and non-departmental public bodies on average in each of Mortgages: Government Assistance the last five years; and what the total salary cost was of officials in each year. [151115] Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 10 April 2013, Sajid Javid: The number of days worked by officials Official Report, column 1177W, whether there will be a in the HM Treasury and its agencies could be provided maximum number of concurrent mortgages that can be only at disproportionate costs. covered by the proposed mortgage indemnity Total salary costs for the Treasury Group are guarantee or mortgage subsidy schemes for individuals published annually in departmental annual report and residing together in the same household at the time of accounts which are available on the following website, application. [151960] http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/dep_perf_reports_index.htm Sajid Javid: I refer the hon. Member to the answer and for 2011-12 the salary figures appear in Chapter 9, given on 10 April 2013, Official Report, column 1177W. Section 6, Table 6.1. 523W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 524W

Salary figures for the last five years are available as Sajid Javid: The rates of both general betting duty follows: and bingo duty were set by the previous Government. HMT Group permanent staff salary costs Bingo duty is charged at 20% of gross profits and £000 general betting duty is charged at 15% of gross profits. At Budget 2013 the Government left rates unchanged. 2011-12 100,742 All taxes, including general betting duty and bingo 2010-11 80,032 duty, are kept under review. 2009-10 91,392 2008-09 79,501 Telephone Services 2007-08 83,554 Richard Burden: To ask the Chancellor of the The increase in total salary costs between 2010-11 to Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 19 March 2013, 2011-12 can largely be attributed to the Treasury Official Report, column 602W, on telephone services, Group expanding to include staff from the Financial whether a UK landline number beginning with 01, 02 Services Compensation Scheme and Money Advice or 03 is publicly available as an alternative to the 0845 Service. number in use by his Department and the agencies for Figures for 2012-13 will be published in due course. which he is responsible. [151631] Tax Allowances Sajid Javid: The answer of 19 March 2013, Official Report, column 602W, on telephone services, stated that, while HM Treasury used 020 as the advertised Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the number, the UK Debt Management Office (DMO), an Exchequer what steps he is taking to provide support executive agency of HM Treasury, had 10 0845 contact for families through the tax system. [151842] numbers on its website. The DMO has recently updated its website to provide an 02 number for all Sajid Javid: This Government has increased the 10 contact points within the agency for which income tax personal allowance to £10,000, helping telephone numbers are provided. For the six contact 25 million people, and by April 2014 will have taken a points listed on the “contact us” page of the website, total of 2.7 million low-paid individuals out of tax non-geographic 0845 numbers continue to be provided altogether. alongside the geographic (02) alternatives, because of The Government has cut fuel duty. It now costs the key business continuity advantage of continuous £7 less for a typical motorist to fill their tank, and it access to 0845 numbers in the event of an interruption will cost £10 less by the end of the Parliament. The to geographic telephone numbers. Government has also made funding available to help local authorities in England freeze their council tax for Tonnage Tax a third year in a row. John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Additionally, at Budget 2013 the Government Exchequer how many officials in (a) HM Revenue and announced a new tax-free child care scheme to support Customs and (b) its predecessor departments worked working families. The new scheme will be phased in on administration of the tonnage tax scheme in each from autumn 2015, providing 20% of working families’ year since 2000-01. [151508] child care costs, up to £1,200 per child each year. In the first year the scheme will be available to children under Sajid Javid: In 2012-13 we estimate that HMRC had five, but will build up over time to include children 5.5 staff units employed on tonnage tax under 12. administration. We do not hold this information for earlier years. Taxation: Bingo Welfare Tax Credits Mr Amess: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary Rushanara Ali: To ask the Chancellor of the of State for Culture, Media and Sport on taxation of Exchequer how many people employed on zero hours bingo. [151175] contracts received an incorrect payment of tax credits in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13. [151400] Sajid Javid: Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide variety of organisations in the Sajid Javid: HM Revenue and Customs does not public and private sectors as part of the process of collect information on the type of work contract an policy development and delivery. individual claiming tax credits is under. It is the actual average hours worked that are material to entitlement. The Treasury publishes a list of ministerial meetings This information is therefore unavailable. with external organisations, available at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm

Mr Amess: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer DEFENCE (1) what recent estimate he has made of the rate of 16 Air Assault Brigade gross profit tax levied on (a) bingo clubs and (b) bookmakers; and for what reasons the two rates are Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence different; [151473] what proportion of those trained parachutists (2) what recent consideration he has given to currently serving within 16 Air Assault Brigade are reducing the rate of bingo duty to 15%. [151475] classified as in-date. [151920] 525W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 526W

Mr Robathan: The most recent figures show that Improved interactive, scenario-based training, delivered by 88% of trained parachutists currently serving within 16 professional experts from outside the Army who are prepared to Air Assault Brigade are classified as in-date. challenge their attitudes and perception. The training was doubled in 2012, and the Army are doubling this training again this year. Armed Forces: Recruitment The introduction of a confidential Bullying, Harassment and Discrimination helpline in 2011, which enables our people to Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for raise any concerns about their treatment directly with a dedicated Defence how many visits the armed forces made to (a) team outside the chain of command. state secondary schools, (b) independent schools and Increased use of mediation to tackle and resolve concerns as (c) colleges in (i) Scotland, (ii) Wales, (iii) England and early as possible. (iv) Northern Ireland in 2011-12. [145626] The expansion of employee support networks. Improved leadership and engagement from commanding Mr Francois: This information is not held in the officers based on greater understanding and awareness of their format requested. A breakdown of visits by soldiers’ perceptions. geographical area is being compiled, but will take some This approach is kept under constant review and is time. I will write to the hon. Member once the informed by feedback from a wide range of sources, information has been collated. both internal and external, including representations Substantive answer from Mark Francois to Cathy from the chain of command. Jamieson: All commanding officers are also made fully aware Further to my response to your Parliamentary Question of 7 of their responsibility to protect others from the March (Official Report, column 1127W) I promised to write to differing forms of harassment, physical and mental you with further details to your question about the breakdown, intimidation and discrimination. by UK Country, of the number of Armed Forces visits to schools and colleges in 2011-12. It is not possible to break this down by All those who are found to fall short of the Army’s type of teaching establishment, but the number of visits have high standards or who are found to have committed an been broken down by Service and UK Country is detailed in the offence under the armed forces Act are dealt with following table: administratively (up to and including dismissal) or through the disciplinary process, as applicable. Number of visits by the Royal Number of visits Number of visits by Army: Snow and Ice Country Navy by the Army the Royal Air Force Scotland 304 491 416 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 146 476 91 Defence what steps his Department has taken to ensure England 1,821 4,534 2,094 that the Army maintains preparedness for conflict in Northern 188 153 110 Arctic conditions. [151998] Ireland These visits can comprise presentations, citizenship talks, Mr Robathan: Arctic warfare is a Royal Marines meetings with staff, participation in career events, practice capability which is supported by Army personnel. interviews and activities with the students. Activities with students can comprise science and maths challenges, and other The Royal Marines continue to train in mountain indoor or outdoor exercises. and cold weather warfare annually in Norway in The Armed Forces do not visit schools for recruitment preparation for contingent operations as part of the purposes and would only ever visit a school after being invited by Royal Navy’s response force task group which can be a teacher to support school activities. Similar contributions to called upon to react to an emerging threat anywhere in schools are made by the Police, Fire, Ambulance and other the world. In addition, every two years the Royal Navy emergency Services. The Armed Forces get numerous requests and Royal Marines come together with their NATO from schools each year and the three Services take these counterparts to exercise in the coastal regions of opportunities to explain to children their role to protect the Norway as part of a bigger multinational force in order nation and pass on valuable skills such as leadership, teamwork and citizenship. to practise the procedures and protocols required for the UK to operate with their coalition partners. The skills and lessons learned in the extreme conditions Armed Forces: Sexual Harassment offered in the mountains and fjords of Norway can be applied to any environment in which the Royal Navy Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and Royal Marines may have to operate in the future. what steps he has taken to address the findings of assessments of experiences of equality and diversity Burma conducted in 3 Division in 2012 with respect to sexual harassment; and if he will make a statement. [151474] Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the role of the new defence attaché to Mr Francois: The British Army is committed to Burma includes responsibility for meeting non-state being fair and free from harassment, with a culture that military forces in that country. [151147] supports diversity, where commanders at every level lead by example, and where all personnel feel valued Dr Murrison: UK officials in Rangoon meet and able to realise their full potential. regularly with both Government Ministers and The Army are making tangible progress in delivering representatives of a range of ethnic minority groups to a more inclusive environment through a programme of discuss the peace process. The defence attaché may initiatives that reflect best practice gleaned from the meet a similar range of interlocutors in the course of public and private sector. These include: his duties. 527W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 528W

Military Exercises report for the Army’s review of unmanned aerial systems training. The outcome of the Army’s review Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for coincided with the publication of the Hermes 450 Defence what assets are taking part in (a) Bersama ZK515 Service Inquiry. The outcome of the service Shield and (b) Exercise Real Thaw 13; how many inquiry superseded the Army’s review and work is personnel were deployed on each such operation; and under way to improve training in line with the what estimate he has made of the cost to the public recommendations. A copy of the service inquiry report purse of each operation. [150094] can be found at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/service-inquiry- Mr Robathan: RAF assets involved in the Langkawi investigating-the-accident-involving-unmanned-air-system- International Maritime Aerospace (LIMA) exhibition uas-hermes-450-zk515-on-02-oct-11 and the Five Power Defence Arrangements’ Exercise Bersama Shield 13 (which ran from 8 April to 18 April) totalled four Typhoon aircraft and some 130 personnel. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The estimated extra costs to the Defence budget of Computers participation are about £2 million. Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for There was no UK participation in the Portuguese-led Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) desktop Exercise Real Thaw 13. computers, (b) laptop computers and (c) tablet Radioactive Materials devices his Department has purchased in the last two years. [151326] Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Jo Swinson: This information is not held centrally what steps his Department is taking to ensure that and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. private contractors with whom it has partnership However, records held by the IT directorate within the agreements adhere to the requirements of the Department are as follows: Radioactive Substances Act 1993. [151894] (a) The majority of our desktops are leased from our infrastructure provider, Fujitsu. However, we did purchase in 2012/13 five Mr Dunne: All Ministry of Defence (MOD) standalone desktop PCs for specialist use. contractors are required to comply with applicable (b) In the last two years we have purchased approximately 354 legislation. laptops. Majority of these were purchased to replace existing laptops. Regulation of radioactive substances is in part a (c) In the last two years we have purchased approximately 44 devolved issue. tablets. The majority of these were purchased to run pilots to trial In Scotland, the application of the Radioactive new ways of working and will be re-used within the Department. Substances Act 1993 (RSA93) depends on the activity Others were purchased for specialist areas. and the nature of any partnership between the All purchases were supported by robust business contractor and the MOD. Generally, RSA93 applies to cases. civilian defence contractors in Scotland and activities Credit are regulated by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (SEPA). Where the MOD is in control of the Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for activities, SEPA nevertheless regulates as if the Business, Innovation and Skills what the average legislation applied, by administrative agreement with waiting time is for a consumer credit licence to be MOD. issued from the date of application to the date of issue. RSA93 has been superseded in England and Wales [151698] by the Environmental Permitting England and Wales Regulations 2010 (EPR10). These apply to defence Jo Swinson: The annual figures for 2010 to 2012 show contractors in England and Wales. Where those a range between a mean average of 23 days in 2012 to a contractors are in control, the Environment Agency mean average of 29 in 2011. (EA) regulates activities in England, while Natural Total cases (applications Mean average processing time Resources Wales carries out the same function in for a credit licence) (working days) Wales. Similar to the case in Scotland where the MOD is in control of activities, the statutory regulator is 2010 7,641 25 responsible as if the legislation applied, by 2011 7,409 29 administrative agreement with MOD. 2012 6,977 23 Unmanned Air Vehicles Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many applications Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for for a consumer credit licence are currently awaiting a Defence pursuant to the answer of 24 October 2012, decision. [151699] Official Report, column 878W, on unmanned air Jo Swinson: There were 782 open (no decision made) vehicles, if he will place in the Library the results of the new consumer credit licence applications with the Office review undertaken on army unmanned aerial systems of Fair Trading at close of play on 15 April 2013. training. [144045] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Business, Innovation and Skills what the average I gave on 24 October 2012, Official Report, column waiting time was for applications for a consumer credit 878W. The review referred to did not result in a formal licence in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. [151700] 529W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 530W

Jo Swinson: The following table gives details of the Mr Willetts [holding answer 17 April 2013]: The field average processing time for applications for a consumer trial of wheat with a genetic modification to repel credit licence in 2010, 2011 and 2012. aphids is being undertaken at Rothamsted Research under a grant from the Biotechnology and Biological Total cases (applications Mean average processing Sciences Research Council (BBSRC). It is part of a for a credit licence) time (working days) wider programme of research aimed at making agriculture 2010 7,641 25 more sustainable, for example less reliant on insecticides 2011 7,409 29 and other inputs. Rothamsted has made an application 2012 6,977 23 to DEFRA for an additional autumn sown trial. Electric Motors: Industry The field trial is part of a five BBSRC-funded project with a total value of £732,000. BBSRC has separately provided funding to Rothamsted for additional security Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for measures for the trial after threats to destroy the experiment Business, Innovation and Skills what support his last summer. Costs to date of this are currently over Department is providing for the electric motor £180,000. industry; and how much support is available to small and medium-sized enterprises. [151800] Accurate figures for the autumn sown trial cannot be provided at this time as the application to DEFRA has Mr Willetts: Government has made a £400 million not been approved and is subject to independent review commitment over the lifetime of this Parliament to and public consultation. make the UK a leading market for ultra-low carbon vehicles; which includes electric vehicles. This includes providing support for collaborative research and Graduates: Employment development (R&D), consumer incentives, support for charging infrastructure and demonstration projects. The Office for Low Emission Vehicles (OLEV) is a team Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, working across Government with staff and funding Innovation and Skills how many graduates obtained a from the Department for Business, Innovation and job within a year of leaving university in each year Skills (BIS), the Department for Transport and the since 2000; and what proportion of the total number of Department of Energy and Climate Change and is graduates this represented for each such year. [151433] leading this work to support the early market for ultra-low emission vehicles (ULEV). Mr Willetts [holding answer 17 April 2013]: The BIS is also putting £9 million into the new Advanced Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) collects Battery Centre at the High Value Manufacturing Catapult data on the destinations of UK and EU domiciled at Warwick. graduates six months after qualifying through their There is no support specifically aimed at small and Destinations of Leavers from Higher Education (DLHE) medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) in this area. However, survey. they can benefit from Government support for the In 2010/11, 224,045 full-time first degree qualifiers automotive industry generally. In particular, many of responded to the survey with a known destination from the interventions under the Technology Strategy Board’s a target population of 284,980, which amounts to an Low Carbon Vehicles Innovation Platform are aimed at overall return rate of 79%. the supply chain which does include SMEs. SMEs will also benefit from our work with the automotive industry Statistics on the number and proportion of full-time to develop a long-term industrial strategy which will be first degree graduates from UK Higher Education published later this year. OLEV will also be publishing Institutions who were in employment six months after an ultra-low emission vehicle strategy later this year. graduating from their course are provided in the table. This data does not include part-time students or those Employee Ownership at other levels of study whose rates may be different. Other graduate destinations surveys existed prior to the Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for DLHE survey, but it is not possible to provide employment Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer rates from these on a consistent basis. of 4 March 2013, Official Report, column 877W, on Information for the 2011/12 academic year will become employee ownership, by what date he plans to publish available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency an updated impact assessment on the new employee in June 2013. shareholder status. [152038] Other than obtaining a job, there are other positive Jo Swinson: It is our intention to publish an updated outcomes six months after graduating Higher Education impact assessment before the employment status comes such as further study, internships/work experience or into law in September 2013. travel. The 2010/11 Higher Education Performance Indicators showed that 90.3% of full time first degree Genetically Modified Organisms: Wheat leavers were in employment or further study six months after graduating. Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the cost of the Further information on employment indicators is additional autumn sown trial of GM wheat at available from the HESA Performance Indicators Rothamsted Research will be; and how this cost will be publication. funded. [151722] http://www.hesa.ac.uk/content/view/2072/141/ 531W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 532W

Full-time first degree qualifiers by employment activity, UK Higher Education proportion of people who have studied (a) science- Institutions, six months after graduating academic years 2002/03 to 2010/11 based and (b) non-science-based subjects at university Academic Total with known Proportion employed year Employed1 employment activity2 (percentage of known) were unemployed after (i) a year, (ii) two years and (iii) three years in the most recent period for which figures 2002/03 128,940 182,320 70.7 are available. [151092] 2003/04 134,175 187,840 71.4 2004/05 134,825 188,775 71.4 Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency 2005/06 135,255 188,330 71.8 (HESA) collects data on the destinations of graduates 2006/07 137,905 190,385 72.4 six months after qualifying through the Destinations of 2007/08 139,310 200,070 69.6 Leavers from Higher Education (DLHE) survey. This is 2008/09 137,725 205,340 67.1 then followed up three and a half years after graduation 2009/10 149,445 213,390 70.0 through the Longitudinal DLHE survey. 2010/11 158,440 224,045 70.7 1 Covers HE leavers employed in full-time, part-time and voluntary work HESA define science-based subjects with the Joint including those in a combination of both work and study. Academic Coding System (JACS) as Science, Technology, 2 This excludes those who explicitly refused to answer as well as non respondents to the survey. Engineering and Mathematics (STEM) subjects. Note: The proportions of UK domiciled full-time first degree Numbers are rounded up or down to the nearest multiple of five, so components may not sum to totals. graduates from UK higher education institutions not in Source: work or further study by subject area of study for the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Destinations of Leavers from Higher Education (DLHE) Survey latest years of data that are available have been provided Graduates: Unemployment in the following table. Information for the 2011/12 academic year will become Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency State for Business, Innovation and Skills what in June 2013.

Destinations of UK domiciled1 full-time first degree qualifiers by employment activity2 and subject area of study3: UK higher education institutions Percentage Not in employment or further study 2010/11 qualifiers 2006/07 qualifiers Subject area of study 6 months after graduation 3.5 years after graduation4

Science-based subjects (STEM) 12.2 5.4 Non-science-based subjects (non-STEM) 14.6 7.2 1 Domicile refers to a student’s permanent or home address prior to entry to their course 2 Statistics exclude those who explicitly refused to answer as well as non respondents to the survey. 3 Subject information is shown as Full Person Equivalents (FPEs) in the table. FPEs are derived by splitting student instances between the different subjects that make up their course aim. 4 Figures estimated using base figures from table 7 of the 2006/07 Longitudinal DLHE report. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Destinations of Leavers in Higher Education (DLHE) survey

Higher Education Information for the 2012/13 academic year will become available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, in January 2014. Innovation and Skills how many people have (a) enrolled at and (b) graduated from universities in the Prior to the academic year 1998/99 the HESA Standard UK in each year since 1997. [151431] Registered Population (SRP) is not available, therefore for the academic years 1997/98 to 1999/2000 the student Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency population at 1 December has been provided as a (HESA) collects and publishes data on student enrolments comparison. at UK higher education institutions (HEIs). Information on the number of enrolments and qualifiers at UK Enrolments include students across all years of study HEIs for the academic years 1997/98 to 2011/12 is and therefore most students will appear as an enrolment provided in the tables. in more than one year.

Total enrolments1 and qualifiers, UK higher education institutions, academic years 1997/98 to 2011/12 Academic year Enrolments (SRP)2 Enrolments (snapshot)3 Qualifiers (SRP)

1997/98 n/a 1,759,555 437,130 1998/99 1,882,100 1,806,075 446,940 1999/2000 1,907,055 1,816,365 460,260 2000/01 1,948,135 n/a 504,410 2001/02 2,042,585 n/a 521,500 2002/03 2,131,110 n/a 557,790 2003/04 2,200,180 n/a 595,640 2004/05 2,236,270 n/a 633,045 2005/06 2,281,240 n/a 640,850 2006/07 2,304,705 n/a 651,060 2007/08 2,306,105 n/a 676,460 533W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 534W

Total enrolments1 and qualifiers, UK higher education institutions, academic years 1997/98 to 2011/12 Academic year Enrolments (SRP)2 Enrolments (snapshot)3 Qualifiers (SRP)

2008/09 2,396,055 n/a 674,415 2009/10 2,493,420 n/a 716,940 2010/11 2,501,295 n/a 762,540 2011/12 2,496,645 n/a 787,205 1 Covers students in all years of study. 2 Coverage for the HESA Standard Registration Population (SRP) is available at the following link: http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php/content/view/1902/ 3 Student population at 1 December of the reporting academic year. Note: Figures have been rounded up or down to the nearest five, so components may not sum to totals. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record.

Higher Education: Finance Spend (£ Number of Average support million) students (£ ) Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Full-time 58 17,000 3,400 Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what adjustments maintenance have been made and savings assumed in departmental loans expenditure for new regime UK-domiciled part-time Full-time grants 30 13,000 2,200 undergraduate students entering higher education Part-time tuition 1 500 1,300 courses for the first time in 2012-13 at institutions fee loans which are not Higher Education Funding Council for Part-time grants 0.1 200 500 England-fundable; and what assumption he has made of the number of part-time students who will be These are not final figures for 2012/13 and are likely applying for fee loans; [151396] to change by the end of the year. The grants category includes both maintenance grants and targeted support (2) what adjustments have been made and what such as the disabled students allowance. savings have been assumed in respect of Government expenditure for new regime UK-domiciled full-time We are in the process of reviewing our medium-term undergraduate students entering higher education forecasts for expenditure on student finance for students courses for the first time in 2012-13 at institutions at non-HEFCE fundable institutions to reflect the 2012-13 which are not Higher Education Funding Council for data. England-fundable following the decline in participation in 2012-13; and on what number of full-time students Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for those revised assumptions are based for (a) fee loans, Business, Innovation and Skills what the departmental (b) maintenance grants and (c) maintenance loans; expenditure was for new regime UK-domiciled full- [151639] time undergraduate students entering higher education courses for the first time in 2012-13 at institutions (3) what estimate he has made of Government which are Higher Education Funding Council for expenditure on new regime UK-domiciled part-time England-fundable; and on what number of (a) undergraduate students entering higher education full-time and (b) part-time students and at what courses for the first time in 2012-13 at institutions average fee level assumptions were based for (i) fee which are not Higher Education Funding Council for loans, (ii) maintenance grants and (iii) maintenance England-fundable; and on what number of part-time loans. [151430] students and at what average fee level those assumptions were based for fee loans; [151640] Mr Willetts: Robust expenditure data for the 2012/13 (4) what estimate he has made of Government academic year is not yet available and therefore we are expenditure for new regime UK-domiciled full-time not able to provide firm data on either the number of undergraduate students entering higher education students supported or how the average levels of grant courses for the first time in 2012-13 at institutions and loan compare to our assumptions. Provisional data which are non-Higher Education Funding Council for on student numbers and average rates of support for the England-fundable; and on what number of full-time 2012/13 academic year can be found in the Student students and at what average fee level those Loans Company’s Statistical First Release of 29 November assumptions were based for (a) fee loans, (b) 2012. maintenance grants and (c) maintenance loans. [151655] A summary of estimated expenditure for the 2012-13 financial year-based on actual spend to end February Mr Willetts: Student Loans Company (SLC) data on and estimates for March—is shown as follows. This student finance for students at non-HEFCE fundable covers English students at UK institutions, EU students institutions, for academic year 2012/13, up to 31 March at institutions in England and both HEFCE-fundable 2013, show the following expenditure, number of students and non-HEFCE-fundable institutions. and average support: Student finance expenditure by type of support for financial year 2012-13 £ million Spend (£ Number of Average support million) students (£ ) Maintenance Loans, cash outlay to 830 2012-13 full-time entrants Full-time tuition 35 16,000 2,100 Fee Loans, cash outlay to 2012-13 full- 1,210 fee loans time entrants 535W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 536W

Student finance expenditure by type of support for financial year pulmonary disease, (v) idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis, 2012-13 £ million (vi) mesothelioma and (vii) childhood wheezing and Fee Loans, cash outlay to 2012-13 part- 30 childhood respiratory infection in each of the last three time entrants years. [151228] Maintenance Grants, expenditure on 1,460 both new and continuing students Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) through programmes under the Technology Higher Education: Part-time Education Strategy Board, has allocated funding to projects with spend in the years as specified as follows: Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what adjustments have £ been made and what savings have been assumed in 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 respect of Government expenditure for new regime Lung Cancer — 47,158 930,405 UK-domiciled part-time students entering higher Adult asthma — — 29,005 education courses for the first time in 2012-13 at Pneumonia — — — institutions which are Higher Education Funding Chronic obstructive — 100,405 732,720 Council for England-fundable following the decline in pulmonary disease participation in 2012-13; and on what number of Idiopathic pulmonary ——— part-time students those revised assumptions are based fibrosis for fee loans. [151638] Mesothelioma — — — Childhood wheezing and ——— respiratory infection Mr Willetts: Data from the Higher Education Statistics Total 0 147,563 1,692,129 Agency suggests that part-time entrant numbers at HEFCE-fundable providers have declined by 25% in The Medical Research Councils (MRC’s) expenditure 2012/13. We have updated our student finance forecasts for respiratory disease and lung cancer can be found in to account for this and have assumed no change in the following table: entrant numbers in subsequent years. We are still monitoring the take-up rate of loans as the academic year continues. £ million While it appears the take-up rate could be much lower Respiratory Lung Cancer than our assumption of 90% we have not yet revised 1 our forecasts to account for that factor. The change in 2009/10 39.3 6.7 2 our forecasts caused by the decline in participation is as 2010/11 32.5 n/a 2 follows: 2011/12 33.0 n/a 1 Actual expenditure. Cash outlay on fee loans to part-time students by financial year 2 Forecasted expenditure. £ million When breaking out expenditure on cancer the MRC 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 looks at research by site, therefore the information Original forecasts 120 320 480 requested on mesothelioma is included in the data Estimated outturn based on end 30 — — provided above for lung cancer. Adult asthma, pneumonia, February 2013 expenditure chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, idiopathic Forecasts updated for decline in — 240 360 pulmonary fibrosis, and childhood wheezing and childhood entrants but not take-up rate respiratory infection are all constituent parts of the respiratory portfolio and the MRC does not normally Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for break this information down to this level. However, Business, Innovation and Skills how many students data is available on expenditure relating to pulmonary started part-time undergraduate degree courses at each fibrosis as follows (note this excludes expenditure on university in England in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and research relating to cystic fibrosis): (c) 2012-13 (i) in total and (ii) by university; and if he Pulmonary fibrosis (£ million) will make a statement. [151855] 2009/101 2.1 Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency 2010/112 n/a (HESA) collects and publishes data on students at UK 2011/122 n/a higher education institutions (HEIs). A table showing 1 Actual expenditure. the number of part-time entrants to undergraduate 2 Forecasted expenditure. degree courses for individual HEIs in England in the MRC-funded research on pulmonary fibrosis ranges academic years 2009/10 to 2011/12 has been placed in from fundamental research on the mechanisms of the Libraries of the House. pulmonary fibrosis to clinical studies to inform new HESA figures for the 2012/13 academic year will be treatments. The portfolio includes research on idiopathic available from January 2014. pulmonary fibrosis (IPF) and pulmonary fibrosis resulting from exposure to toxic substances or where it is secondary Lung Diseases: Research to another disease or condition. The majority of MRC’s research in this area either relates directly to IPF or to Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for fundamental mechanisms of pulmonary fibrosis which Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding (a) will inform IPF. his Department and (b) the Medical Research Council I have provided the information that the MRC currently allocated to research into (i) lung cancer, (ii) adult has available. The lung cancer portfolio is due to be asthma, (iii) pneumonia, (iv) chronic obstructive updated later in the year. The portfolio for pulmonary 537W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 538W fibrosis is not routinely identified from the wider respiratory the Research Councils will invest £340 million in portfolio, and is not due to be updated. Information for postgraduate research provision, which includes provision the 2012/13 financial year will not be available until the for stipends for postgraduate research students. annual report and accounts have been published. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) also supports professional and career development Nuclear Power loans (PCDLs) provided by Barclays and the Co-operative Bank. PCDLs are deferred-repayment bank loans of up Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for to £10,000 for up to two years’ study, usually repaid Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to his over a period of one to five years. Postgraduate taught Department’s announcement of 26 March 2013 of courses account for almost 90% of the 8,000 loans each £31 million of funding for new nuclear technology, year. In addition, BIS and the Northern Ireland whether the 36 funding awards from the £31 million for Administration are providing support for up to 500 nuclear research, development and training will be students to undertake specific aerospace related MSc subject to full cost recovery in cases where the funded programmes at UK universities for academic year 2013/14 project benefit companies involved in nuclear new through to 2015/16. £3 million funding from Government build. [151616] will be matched by industry. BIS continues to work with HEFCE who are gathering Mr Willetts: The 36 projects being supported are evidence on the role and nature of postgraduate provision, already part funded by business with at least £13 million and the potential impact of higher education funding of the £31 million being invested by the businesses changes on graduate choices for postgraduate study. involved. The Government funding has been awarded in order to stimulate innovation and growth for UK Telephone Services business in the nuclear sector and is awarded to businesses, universities and research and technology organisations Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for to develop innovative technologies. Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer It is hoped that these research and development of 18 March 2013, Official Report, columns 515-7W, (R&D) projects, which are still some way from market, on telephone services, whether a UK landline number will ultimately become commercialised after the end of beginning with 01, 02 or 03 is publicly available as an the projects, hence creating new jobs, increasing business alternative to the 0800, 0844, 0845 and 0870 numbers profitability and contributing to growth. Under these in use by his Department and the agencies for which he circumstances, Government grants for R&D are not is responsible. [151629] usually subject to recovery. Jo Swinson: There are no alternative UK landline Postgraduate Education numbers to the 0800, 0844, 0845 and 0870 numbers in use by the Department. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State I have approached the chief executives of the for Business, Innovation and Skills what Department’s agencies and they will respond to the representations he has received on concerns that hon. Member directly. postgraduate students are turning to high-interest rate Letter from David Parker, dated 16 April 2013: loans and credit cards. [150914] Thank you for your question addressed to the Secretary of State for the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills Mr Willetts: Postgraduate research and taught training asking whether a UK landline number beginning with 01, 02 or is important both to individuals and to developing 03 is publicly available as an alternative to the 0800, 0844, 0845 higher level skills for the economy. Ministers have received and 0870 numbers in use by his Department and the agencies for a range of representations about support and funding which he is responsible. for postgraduate students, including mention of prospective The UK Space Agency does have a UK landline number postgraduate students considering (high-interest rate) beginning with 02 in use for the public however this is not an loans and other means to fund their studies. Ministers alternative to any 0800, 0808, 0844, 0845 and 0870 telephone are also aware that the National Union of Students has numbers. published two reports “Broke and Broken” and “Steps Letter from Nick Jobling, dated 16 April 2013: towards a fairer system of postgraduate taught funding I am replying on behalf of the Chief Executive of the Met in England” which have both highlighted that over 15% Office to your Parliamentary Question tabled on 10 April 2013, of the postgraduate taught students they surveyed (in UIN 151629 to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation 2010) had claimed to be funding at least part of their and Skills. study through credit card and overdraft debt. The public can access the Met Office Weather Desk with weather related enquiries, any time of the day or night, by The Government provides funding to support eligible telephone, fax, email, and social media. To contact the Weather individuals undertaking postgraduate qualifications. The Desk by telephone, the public can choose to call either 01392 Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) 885680 or 0870 900 0100. provides funding to higher education institutions (HEIs) I hope this helps. in England to meet some of the costs incurred by HEIs of teaching students on taught postgraduate courses Letter from Kim Thorneywork, dated 16 April 2013: and of supervising students in the first three years of a Thank you for your question in asking the Secretary of State postgraduate research degree programme. In 2012-13, for Business, Innovation and Skills, pursuant to the Answer of 18 March 2013, Official Report, columns 515-7W, on telephone HEFCE has maintained the allocation for taught services, whether a UK landline number beginning with 01, 02 or postgraduate provision at £135 million, similar to levels 03 is publicly available as an alternative to the 0800, 0844, 0845 for 2011-12. HEFCE has increased support for postgraduate and 0870 numbers in use by his Department and the agencies for research degree supervision to £240 million. In addition which he is responsible. 539W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 540W

Please be advised that the non geographic telephone numbers I can confirm that we do not have any UK landline telephone in use by the Skills Funding Agency do not have an alternative numbers beginning with 01, 02, or 03 available as alternatives to UK landline number beginning with 01, 02 or 03. the 0800 or 0844 numbers which are used by Land Registry. Letter from John Alty, dated 16 April 2013: I hope you find this information useful. I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office to your Parliamentary Question tabled 10th April 2013, to the Visits Abroad Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. A new 0300 phone number replaced the 0845 number in June Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010. The 0845 number sits in the background and isn’t advertised Business, Innovation and Skills what his Department’s to customers. Around 10% of customers continue to contact us budget was for overseas travel for officials and on this number. A standard 01 number is also available for Ministers in 2012-13. [151350] customers to use. Letter from Dr Vanessa Lawrence CB, dated 17 April Jo Swinson: The Department does not have an individual 2013: budget for overseas travel as such costs form part of the As Director General and Chief Executive of Ordnance Survey, overall travel budget allocations made to individual I have been asked to respond to your Parliamentary Question departmental business areas which cover both UK and asking the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, overseas travel. However, our procurement records show “whether a UK landline number beginning with 01, 02 or 03 is publicly available as an alternative to the 0800, 0844, 0845 and that in the 2012-13 financial year a total of £2,872,973 0870 numbers in use by his Department and the agencies for was spent on overseas air fares, overseas rail fares and which he is responsible”. overseas hotels with the Department’s corporate travel Ordnance Survey does not generally offer alternatives to the provider. 0845 numbers available to the public. The one exception is the textphone service used by deaf and hard-of-hearing customers, which uses an 02-prefix number. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT I hope this information is helpful. Freeview Letter from Tim Moss, dated 17 April 2013: I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary 16. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Question tabled 10 April 2013, to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what steps she is taking to Business, Innovation and Skills, (JIN 151629. ensure that consumers do not lose Freeview TV Companies House’s principal number, that of its Contact reception as part of the roll-out of 4G. [151756] Centre, is a UK landline number, 0303 1234500. This can be used instead of the 0845 number it also uses for one of its services. Mr Vaizey: Government requires the winners of the Letter from Dr Richard Judge, dated 17 April 2013: 800 MHz spectrum licences to make sure that viewers The Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills has who could suffer interference from 4G mobile services asked me to reply to your question pursuant to the Answer of 18 receive the help they need to enable them to continue March 2013, Official Report, columns 515-7W, on telephone watching TV. The mobile network operators are doing services, whether a UK landline number beginning with 01, 02 or this through at800, a company they have set up with 03 is publicly available as an alternative to the 0800, 0844, 0845 £180 million of their own funding. and 0870 numbers in use by his Department and the agencies for which he is responsible. Broadband In addition to the two 0845 numbers quoted in my earlier letter, The Insolvency Service makes the following numbers available Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for on its website: Culture, Media and Sport what assessment she has 1. A redundancy enquiry line on number 0330 331 0020; made of the outcome of the 4G spectrum auction. 2. Numbers for individual official receiver’s offices and our [151751] estate accounting function which give their telephone area code. Letter from Peter Mason, dated 16 April 2013: Mr Vaizey: I was delighted that the auction of 800 MHz and 2.6 GHz spectrum conducted by Ofcom in I am responding in respect of the National Measurement Office (NMO) to your Parliamentary Question tabled on 10 April January and February delivered results that represent a 2013, asking the Secretary of State, Department for Business, significant achievement for the future of mobile Innovation and Skills (BIS) about publicly available UK landline communications in the UK. numbers. The mobile network operators’ investment in networks NMO uses UK landline numbers beginning with 02. These are and most of all from use of the spectrum will provide a publicly available on the NMO website under the following significant economic boost to the UK. contact web links: The operators will quickly start to roll out competitive http://www.bis.gov.uk/nmo/contact-us high speed mobile broadband services across the country http://www.bis.gov.uk/nmo/contact-us/staff-contacts which will be a major contributor to the UK digital NMO does not use any UK landline numbers beginning with growth strategy. 01 or 03 (nor any 0800, 0844, 0845 and 0870 numbers). Letter from Malcolm Dawson, dated 17 April 2013: Entertainments: Licensing I write on behalf of Land Registry in response to Parliamentary Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Question 151629 tabled on 10 April 2013 which asked the following: Media and Sport pursuant to the written ministerial To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and statement of 7 January 2013, Official Report, Skills, pursuant to the Answer of 18 March 2013, Official Report, columns 515-7W, on telephone services, whether a UK landline columns5-6WS, on entertainment licensing reform, number beginning with 01, 02 or 03 is publicly available as an when she plans to bring forward legislative proposals to alternative to the 0800, 0844, 0345 and 0870 numbers in use by his bring into effect the Government’s policy on Department and the agencies for which he is responsible. deregulation of entertainment licensing. [151966] 541W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 542W

Hugh Robertson: In the coming weeks, we will lay an law-abiding lives. The paper invites views and outline Order before Parliament that will free up most performances proposals from a wide range of stakeholders and providers of plays, exhibitions of dance and indoor sport from describing how they would implement the Government’s the unnecessary bureaucracy and cost imposed by the vision for secure colleges. The consultation closes on Licensing Act 2003. With the will of both Houses, we 30 April 2013 and plans will be developed as a result, aim to bring this Order into force as quickly as possible, culminating in a Government response to the consultation so that thousands of community organisations and responses it receives. charities across England and Wales can benefit from licence-free performances, starting this summer. Further Email measures, announced on 7 January, require changes to primary legislation and will be brought before Parliament Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for later this year. Education whether he or his special advisers currently Television: Licensing use private email accounts for the purposes of conducting official Government business; and what David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for steps he is taking to ensure that any such accounts can Culture, Media and Sport how many pensioners be searched in response to requests submitted under claimed the over 75 free television licence (a) in the Freedom of Information Act 2000. [142999] Morecambe and Lunesdale constituency, (b) in Lancashire and (c) nationally in the latest period for Elizabeth Truss: The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath which figures are available. [151846] (Michael Gove), and his special advisers use equipment Mr Vaizey: The BBC does not hold a breakdown of and systems provided by the Department and their own how many ‘Over 75 licences’ have been claimed for any IT equipment as appropriate, depending on their location area smaller than the UK. However, the total number of and circumstances. Where information is generated in ‘Over 75 licences’ in force nationally as at the end of the course of conducting Government business, it is financial year 2011-12 was 3,908,306. stored on Departmental systems. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for EDUCATION Education which Minister in his Department applied exemptions 36(2)(b)(ii) and (2)(c) to the request Children: Day Care submitted by the hon. Member for West Bromwich East under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 on Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for private email accounts (reference 2013/0001056). Education whether he will publish any responses to the [143001] More Great Childcare consultation which reject the premise of the questions posed. [151035] Elizabeth Truss: Information is exempt under section Elizabeth Truss: The Government will publish full 36 (2) if, in the reasonable opinion of a qualified person, reports on all consultations resulting from the publication disclosure of the information would be likely to have of More Great Childcare, in line with usual practice. the effects set out in the Act. In this case the qualified person was myself. Education: Secure Accommodation Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether (a) he or (b) his special advisers (i) Education what steps his Department is taking to sent or (ii) received emails relating to the Building address low educational attainment for those in the Schools for the Future programme in Sandwell through secure youth estate. [148445] non-departmental (A) email accounts or (B) social Mr Timpson: To ensure that young people receive networking sites; and if he will make a statement. effective education while they are in custody, establishments [143425] should be conducting initial assessments of young people’s Elizabeth Truss: The Secretary of State for Education, literacy, numeracy and any particular learning needs. my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath Such assessments should happen as soon as possible (Michael Gove), and his special advisers use equipment after the young person’s arrival in custody and should and systems provided by the Department and their own take account of information from the organisations and IT equipment as appropriate, depending on their location professionals that have worked with the young person and circumstances. Where information is generated in previously. The custodial provider should then develop the course of conducting Government business, it is a learning plan to ensure that, while the young person is stored on departmental systems. Neither the Secretary in custody, he or she benefits from education and training of State nor his special advisers use social networking designed to meet individual needs. sites for Government business. On 14 February 2013 the Government launched a consultation on ‘Transforming Youth Custody: Putting Faith Schools Education at the Heart of Detention’. It describes the Government’s plans for placing high quality education Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for at the centre of youth custody. Education what proportion of (a) primary and (b) Plans to reform youth custody will see young people secondary schools are designated as faith schools; and appropriately punished while at the same time learning how many such schools are (i) Catholic, (ii) Protestant, to take responsibility for their actions and gaining the (iii) Muslim, (iv) Jewish, (v) Hindu, (vi) Sikh and (vii) skills and qualifications they need to lead productive, other faiths. [147885] 543W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 544W

Elizabeth Truss: Data held by the Department records Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 26 March 2013]: The the religious character declared by the school. requested information, for the academic years 2007/08 (a) As of 8 March 2013, there were 16,783 state-funded to 2011/12, has been placed in the House Libraries. mainstream primary schools in England, of which 37% Information for earlier years could be provided only at (6,194) were recorded as faith schools. Of these: 4,386 disproportionate cost. were recorded as Church of England; 1,662 were recorded Ministers: Codes of Practice as Roman Catholic; six were recorded as Muslim; 33 were recorded as Jewish; three were recorded as Hindu; Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for three were recorded as Sikh; and 101 were recorded as Education what arrangements are in place to ensure other faiths (other Christian, mixed types, Quaker, and that Ministers in his Department comply with clauses Methodist). 1.2(b) and 1.2(d) of the Ministerial Code. [150166] (b) As of 8 March 2013, there were 3,281 state-funded mainstream secondary schools in England, of which Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 26 March 2013]: All 19% (628) were recorded as faith schools. Of these: 207 DFE Ministers comply with the Ministerial Code. were recorded as Church of England; 323 were recorded Pre-school Education: Special Educational Needs as Roman Catholic; eight were recorded as Muslim; ten were recorded as Jewish; three were recorded Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for as Hindu; one was recorded as Sikh; and 77 were Education what guidance he provides to local recorded as other faiths (other Christian, mixed types, authorities on the employment of early years area and Quaker). special educational needs co-ordinators. [151036] Source: Edubase Elizabeth Truss: The Department last issued guidance http://www.education.gov.uk/edubase/home.xhtml to local authorities on the employment of early years area Special Educational Needs Co-ordinators (SENCOs) GCE AS-level in 2002. Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for We are in the process of revising the statutory Special Education pursuant to the answer of 12 March 2013, Educational Needs (SEN) “Code of Practice” for the Official Report, column 142W, on GCE: AS level, how first time since 2001, to reflect the reforms set out in the many universities have made representations to him Children and Families Bill. We will take this opportunity (a) in support of abolishing AS levels, (b) in support to review whether, and if so how, good practice on the of separating AS levels from A levels and (c) against area SENCO role can be reflected in the “Code of making such changes to the status of AS levels. Practice” as part of the overall approach to providing [149664] for children with special educational needs. Pupil Exclusions: Yorkshire and the Humber Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 25 March 2013]: Since the publication of the White Paper, ‘The Importance Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for of Teaching’, in November 2010, discussions of our Education how many children between the ages of four plans for A level reform, including the changes to the and 11 years were (a) suspended and (b) suspended AS qualification, have taken place with a wide range more than once from school in (i) Brigg and Goole individuals from universities and organisations, including constituency and (ii) Yorkshire and the Humber in the the Russell Group and Universities UK. Ofqual also latest period for which figures are available. [150159] consulted on A level reform earlier in the year. It is for individuals and groups to decide whether to make their Elizabeth Truss [holding answer Tuesday 16 March views public, including any responses to Ofqual’s 2013]: Information on the number of pupil enrolments consultation on A levels. aged between four and 11 receiving one or more, or two GCSE or more fixed period exclusions in Brigg and Goole constituency and Yorkshire and the Humber in 2010/11 Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for is shown in the table. Education how many and what proportion of pupils The latest published information on permanent and who did not have a statement of special educational fixed period exclusions is available in the “Permanent needs (a) nationally and (b) in each local authority and Fixed Period Exclusions from Schools in England achieved an A* to C grade in both English and 2010/11” Statistical First Release at: mathematics GCSE but excluding equivalents in each http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/ year since 1997. [150169] a00211337/

State-funded primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1,2,3,4: Number of pupil enrolments aged between four and 11 receiving one or more fixed period exclusions5,6, Yorkshire and the Humber region and Brigg and Goole constituency, 2010/11 Number of pupil enrolments receiving one or more fixed period exclusions State-funded secondary State-funded primary schools1,2 schools1,3 Special schools4 Total1,2,3,4 Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of school school school school Number population7 Number population7 Number population7 Number population7

Yorkshire and 1,910 0.48 1,710 2.96 80 2.65 3,690 0.81 the Humber region 545W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 546W

State-funded primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1,2,3,4: Number of pupil enrolments aged between four and 11 receiving one or more fixed period exclusions5,6, Yorkshire and the Humber region and Brigg and Goole constituency, 2010/11 Number of pupil enrolments receiving one or more fixed period exclusions State-funded secondary State-funded primary schools1,2 schools1,3 Special schools4 Total1,2,3,4 Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of school school school school Number population7 Number population7 Number population7 Number population7

Brigg and Goole 13 0.21 25 2.52 0 0.00 38 0.53 constituency

Number of pupil enrolments receiving two or more fixed period exclusions State-funded secondary State-funded primary schools1,2 schools1,3 Special schools4 Total1,2,3,4 Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of school school school school Number population7 Number population7 Number population7 Number population7

Yorkshire and the 720 0.18 700 1.22 50 1.57 1,470 0.32 Humber region Brigg and Goole 5 0.08 9 0.15 0 0.00 14 0.20 constituency 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies (including all-through academies). 4 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 5 Pupils may be counted more than once if they moved schools during the year, or are registered at more than one school. 6 Age as at 31 August 2010. 7 The number of pupil enrolments expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount) of pupils aged between four and 11 (excluding dually registered pupils)asat January 2011. Note: Regional totals have been rounded to the nearest 10. Totals may not appear to equal the sum of constituent parts. Source: School Census.

Pupils: Travellers granting of a residence order. The following table gives the regional breakdown of looked after children who Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for have ceased to be looked after due to the granting of a Education how many school attendance orders were residence order for these years. This information covers served on the parents of Traveller and Gypsy children England only; information relating to Wales can be in each local education authority area in each of the found on the Welsh Government website. last five years. [148735] However, it is not possible to identify how many of these children were subject to a residence order which Mr Laws: Local authorities are required to serve names a non-parent. school attendance orders where a parent cannot Children who ceased to be looked after during the years ending 31 March due to demonstrate that their child of compulsory school age the granting of a residence order1,2,3,4; years ending 31 March 2006 to 2012, is receiving suitable education and in the opinion of the coverage: England local authority it is expedient that the child should Number of children who ceased to be looked after due to the attend a school. The Department does not collect granting of a residence order information on how many school attendance orders are 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 issued by local authorities. England 930 1030 910 930 1010 1190 1290 Residence Orders North East 90 70 80 70 80 120 120 North 120 200 170 160 200 240 230 Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for West Education (a) how many residence orders have been Yorkshire 110 120 100 100 140 140 170 made to a non-parent in relation to a child and (b) and The how many such children were previously in the care Humber system in (i) 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012 and (ii) East 40 80 70 70 50 100 90 each of the last 10 years in (A) England and Wales and Midlands West 120 140 120 120 140 170 150 (B) each region. [150148] Midlands East of 80 50 80 90 80 100 110 Mr Timpson [holding answer 26 March 2013]: The England current family court data collection system has a facility London 200 160 120 100 130 120 180 to collect data on the applicant and the respondent’s South East 80 130 100 140 100 110 120 relationship to the child in residence cases, but the South West 100 70 70 80 90 100 110 system does not record information on who is named in 1 Only the last occasion on which a child ceased to be looked after in the year the resulting court order. It is therefore not possible to has been counted. 2 Figures exclude children who were looked after under an agreed series of tell how many residence orders in relation to children short term placements. have been made which name a non-parent. 3 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 4 Information on residence orders was collected for the first time in 2006. In England, a total of 7,290 children have ceased to Source: be looked after between 2006 and 2012 due to the SSDA903 547W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 548W

Schools: Repairs and Maintenance Maria Miller: As the Prime Minister has made clear, Government Departments do not need to do equality Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for impact assessments. Equality is far more than simply a Education what the total estimate provided by local tick box exercise. All Departments, including the Treasury, authorities is for the backlog of school repairs from consider equality during policy making as a matter of Priority 1 to 4; and if he will place a list of local course. For example, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury authorities along with the repair backlog for each local hosted a roundtable in March with a range of equality authority in the Library. [150690] stakeholders ahead of the spending review in June. Mr Laws: At this time it is not possible to provide an Working Mothers estimate of the backlog of school repairs ranging from Priority 1 to 4. Karl Turner: To ask the Minister for Women and The Department has not collected any data on school Equalities what steps she is taking to support working condition since 2005. The Department is now in the mothers. [151737] process of collecting data on school condition by means of actual property data surveys. When these surveys Jo Swinson: Working mothers make a huge contribution have been completed the information collected, along to the economy and the Government continues to support with the validated local authority data, will be used to them in a number of ways. provide an estimate of the outstanding costs of school We have already put in place a number of measures repairs. to help with the cost of child care and announced It is expected this process will be completed by the further support to be introduced in 2015. end of October 2013. In addition we have extended support for child care The results of the school surveys and the validated costs to those who work less than 16 hours a week; local authority information will be made available through increased Government-funded early education places an appropriate dissemination process currently being for three and 4-year-olds to 15 hours a week; and finalised by the Education Funding Agency. extended this so that 260,000 two-year-olds from lower Secondment income families can also access a place from September 2014. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Our radical reforms to parental leave will allow working Education (1) pursuant to the answer of 1 March 2013, mothers and working fathers to choose how best to Official Report, column 754W, on secondment, what share caring responsibilities, allowing them to balance the lengths are of the secondments of those civil their work and caring responsibilities and progress their servants to organisations which sponsor academies; careers. [148633] (2) what the names are of the organisations to which the civil servants have been seconded. [148634] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Elizabeth Truss: The Department has four members of staff on secondment to organisations which sponsor Telephone Services academies: two at United Learning Trust, one at REach2 and one at The David Ross Educational Trust. All four Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for members of staff are on secondment for a period of two Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of years. In each case their salaries are reimbursed to the 18 March 2013, Official Report, column 380W, on Department. telephone services, whether a UK landline number beginning with 01, 02 or 03 is publicly available as an alternative to the 0800 and 0845 number in use by his WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Department and the agencies for which he is responsible. [151626] Women’s Business Council 6. Nick de Bois: To ask the Minister for Women and Gregory Barker: The Departments HQ in Westminster Equalities what assessment she has made of the work does provide an 02 and an 03 number for public inquiries. of the Women’s Business Council; and when the DECC has four agencies: Council intends to publish its recommendations. Committee on Climate Change—which provides an 02 number. [151735] Nuclear Decommissioning Authority—which provides an 01 number. Jo Swinson: The Women’s Business Council, chaired Coal Authority—which provides an 01 number. by Ruby McGregor Smith, has made excellent progress since being set up in May 2012. Civil Nuclear Police Authority—which also provides an 01 number. It has been exploring how we can maximise women’s Visits Abroad contribution to our economy and I look forward to their report and recommendations this summer. Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Equality Impact Assessments Energy and Climate Change what his Department’s budget was for overseas travel for officials and 7. Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Minister for Women Ministers in 2012-13. [151356] and Equalities what discussions she had with ministerial colleagues prior to Budget 2013 on equality Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and impact assessments; and if she will make a statement. Climate Change’s expenditure on overseas travel in [151738] 2012-13 is £490,000. 549W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 550W

NORTHERN IRELAND disproportionate cost. In addition, figures from before 12 April 2010 would not be comparable with any subsequent Bill of Rights to that date.

Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Security Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has made of progress on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for [151725] Northern Ireland how many booby-trap bombs were discovered under cars in Northern Ireland in (a) Mike Penning: It remains clear that there is currently 2012-13 and (b) 2011-12. [150643] no consensus among the political parties in Northern Ireland around a Bill of Rights, despite substantial Mrs Villiers: The information requested by the hon. efforts to resolve the issue. Member is held by the Police Service of Northern I remain happy to discuss the issue with the political Ireland. The hon. Member may wish to write to the parties if they wish to do so. Chief Constable about his query. Devolution Staff

Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for for Northern Ireland (1) if the Government will give Northern Ireland how many days of work were carried consideration to negotiating a stronger devolution out by officials in (a) her Department and (b) each of settlement with the Northern Ireland Executive; and its non-departmental public bodies on average in each which (a) fiscal and (b) other economic powers the of the last five years; and what the total salary cost was Government would consider devolving as part of such of officials in each year. [151112] a settlement; [151666] (2) what assessment she has made of (a) the criteria Mike Penning: The NIO does not hold information by which the future financial settlement and on the number of days of work carried out by officials constitutional arrangements for Northern Ireland in the Department or its non-departmental public bodies should be determined and (b) the desirability or (NDPBs). otherwise of replacing the funding arrangements The salary costs for my Department were disclosed in determined by the Barnett formula by a needs-based the annual report and accounts for each of the last five allocation of government finances. [151668] years, copies of which are available in the Library of the House. The 2012-13 accounts are not yet complete, but Mike Penning: The Government is committed to will be published in due course. The annual report and devolving powers to the most appropriate level within a accounts also contains summary information on staff strong United Kingdom. numbers. The Northern Ireland Act 1998 makes provision for As an advisory NDPB, the costs related to the Boundary reserved matters to be transferred, providing that there Commission for Northern Ireland are included in those is cross-community support in the Assembly for doing of my Department. Since devolution of policing and so. The Government has also conducted a recent public justice in April 2010, the number of executive NDPBs consultation on adjustments to institutions in Northern has been reduced to two—the Northern Ireland Human Ireland and will bring forward a number of measures in Rights Commission and the Parades Commission for this area when legislative time allows. Northern Ireland. As such bodies are independent of In the context of wider discussions on rebalancing Government, my hon. Friend may wish to write to the the economy and building a shared society in Northern commissions direct on these matters—contact details Ireland, we will examine the potential for the further are set out in the following table: devolution of fiscal and economic powers in consultation with the Northern Ireland Executive. We have also ALB Status Contact details committed to taking a decision on the potential devolution Parades Commission for Executive NDPB [email protected] of corporation tax powers to the Northern Ireland Northern Ireland Assembly no later than the autumn statement 2014. Northern Ireland Human Executive NDPB [email protected] Rights Commission The Northern Ireland Office has made no assessment of the desirability of replacing the funding arrangements Visits Abroad determined by the Barnett formula. Recruitment Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what details of (a) itineraries, (b) Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for costs and (c) other aspects of overseas visits in support Northern Ireland how much her Department spent on of trade and investment by Ministers in her advertising job vacancies in (a) 2005, (b) 2006, (c) Department are published (i) routinely and (ii) on 2007, (d) 2008 and (e) 2009. [151086] request. [150612]

Mike Penning: Following the devolution of policing Mrs Villiers: Details of overseas visits by Ministers in and justice functions on 12 April 2010, and the the Northern Ireland Office are published on a quarterly reconfiguration of the Northern Ireland Office, my basis. This includes date, destination, purpose and cost Department does not hold complete figures for these of each overseas visit. These details can be found at: periods. Attempting to obtain them would incur www.gov.uk/government/publications 551W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 552W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Agency will be eligible to use the Help to Buy scheme for those new build homes which have been completed Fire Services in the last five years and have not been occupied. This would include barns and offices which have been converted Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for for first residential use. Communities and Local Government what his plans In relation to the New Homes Bonus, a hereditament are for the future of fire and rescue services in England; that was converted from business use into a residential and if he will make a statement. [151692] dwelling would count as a new property for the purposes of the bonus. The New Homes Bonus also recognises Brandon Lewis [holding answer 17 April 2013]: As I long-term empty dwellings being brought back into announced on 14 December 2012, Sir Ken Knight is residential use and occupation. undertaking a review into the operational efficiency of On the basis of his previous questions, the hon. the services delivered by fire and rescue authorities in Member may be asking about Community Infrastructure England. The review will seek to identify ways fire and Levy.On 15 April, my Department published a consultation rescue authorities can pinpoint sensible savings and paper which outlines plans to exempt self-build from improvements without reducing the quality life-saving the levy. It also proposes removing the current vacancy services that the country’s fire firefighters are known test meaning the levy will not generally be payable on for. I look forward to Sir Ken Knight’s forthcoming buildings that have been vacant for a certain amount of report; after considering his findings, and hearing views time but are being refurbished or redeveloped to bring from the sector, the Government will publish a formal them back into productive use; the levy would still be response. payable on abandoned buildings or vacant buildings Fire Services: Private Sector being redeveloped with an increase in floorspace. A copy of the document is in the Library of the House. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his policy is Local Government on the future involvement of for-profit private sector companies in service delivery of fire services. [151932] Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will give Brandon Lewis: It remains the responsibility of individual consideration to promoting a new localism settlement fire and rescue authorities to deliver in the way that best to give councils and local authorities greater financial meets the needs of their communities. powers and responsibility. [151720] I refer the hon. Member to my answer of 5 March 2013, Official Report, column 931W,on the outsourcing Mr Foster: The Government continues to devolve provisions introduced by the last Administration. powers and responsibilities to local authorities. They must also exploit the considerable opportunities available Government Procurement Card to them. The Localism Act 2011 allows local communities to decide how best to meet their needs while the General Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Power of Competence gives local authorities power to Communities and Local Government pursuant to the do anything an individual might. The Local Government answer of 25 February 2013, Official Report, column Finance Act 2012 provides a direct financial incentive 75W, on Government Procurement Card, which for local authorities to drive economic growth in their authorised Government Procurement Card area. I look to local authorities to exercise these powers, transactions from the Office of the Deputy Prime act independently and be bold to support their areas. Minister in 2004-05 were made by an authorised cardholder who was then based in the private office of Right to Buy Scheme the Deputy Prime Minister. [150839]

Brandon Lewis: A copy of all Government Procurement Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Card transactions made by the Ministerial Group as a Communities and Local Government how much his whole from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister for Department has spent on marketing and advertising the period in 2004-05 has been deposited in the Library right-to-buy discounts in each region of England in of the House. each year since 2010-11. [150543] Housing: Construction Mr Prisk [holding answer 15 April 2013]: I refer the hon. Member to my answers of 30 January 2013, Official John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, columns 854-5W, on the local and national Communities and Local Government (1) whether his spending. The advertising has not been based around definition of new build includes converted barns and the defunct Government office regions. offices; [R] [149839] (2) whether his definition of new build includes Social Rented Housing: Empty Property properties built in the last five years and never occupied. [R] [149840] Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Mr Prisk: In relation to my Department’s schemes to public-sector homes in (a) England and (b) each support home ownership, I can confirm that developers Government office region in England were empty in who have registered with the Homes and Communities each month in 2012-13. [151426] 553W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 554W

Mr Prisk: As outlined in the written ministerial statement WORK AND PENSIONS of 18 September 2012, Official Report, columns 32-33WS, my Department no longer publishes statistics by Apprentices Government office region. Statistics on vacant dwellings in England and in each Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for local authority district are published in the Department’s Work and Pensions whether he has made a recent live table 615 which is available at the following link. assessment of the value for money of the This table shows the annual number of empty homes in apprenticeship clauses in his Department’s standard the local authority, housing association and other public contract introduced in 2011; and if he will make a sector tenures: statement. [151715] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- tables-on-dwelling-stock-including-vacants Mr Hoban: In order to improve the number of This table brings together figures on vacant dwellings apprenticeships and wider skills opportunities created in England drawn from several separately published through procurement, the Department for Work and sources. Monthly figures are not collected centrally. Pensions introduced a contract schedule to its terms I refer the hon. Member to the answer of 11 December and conditions from April 2010 for all new contracts. 2012, Official Report, House of Lords, column 218-19WA, Although now firmly embedded into the model for on our comprehensive package of policies to get empty all new contracts, no formal assessment has taken place homes back into use. to evaluate the impact of this requirement. Consideration is currently being given to the use and potential cost of Social Rented Housing: EU Nationals a pan-government single supplier registration and data gathering tool, which would support the monitoring Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for and evaluation of this schedule. Communities and Local Government for what reasons an EEA national exercising their right to freedom of Children: Maintenance movement as a self-sufficient person may (a) need and (b) be entitled to social housing. [151293] Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on how many occasions the Child Mr Prisk [holding answer 17 April 2013]: There is no Support Agency made use of its powers under entitlement to social housing. Regulation 4(2)(i) of the Child Support Information European economic area nationals who have a right Regulations 2008 to request information regarding a to reside in the UK on the basis that they are self-sufficient non-resident parent’s address from his or her bank or are eligible for social housing if they are habitually building society in the last year. [151221] resident in the common travel area (the UK, Channel Islands, Isle of Man and Republic of Ireland). To be Steve Webb: The Child Support Agency (the Agency) considered self-sufficient, a person must have (i) sufficient can approach banks and building societies to request resources not to become a burden on the social assistance any information needed to enable: system of the UK and (ii) comprehensive sickness insurance (a) a non-resident parent to be identified or traced (where that cover in the UK. is necessary); To be allocated social housing an eligible applicant (b) the amount of child support maintenance payable by the must also meet the local authority’s own qualification non-resident parent to be calculated; or criteria and have sufficient priority under the local (c) the amount to be recovered from the non-resident parent. authority’s allocation scheme. One area where these provisions are used is where the An allocation scheme must be framed to ensure that agency considers imposing a deduction order. certain categories of people are given ‘reasonable preference’ for social housing, because they have an identified Deduction orders are where the agency instructs deposit housing need, including people who are homeless, holders to deduct maintenance directly from a non overcrowded households, and people who need to move resident parent’s bank/building society account, following on medical or welfare grounds. non payment of maintenance. Disclosure requests are sent to banks and building societies to obtain financial The Government wants to tackle the widespread information and contact details, including the most perception that the way social housing is allocated is recent address. unfair and favours foreign migrants over local people and the armed forces. The following table shows the number of disclosure requests made in the last three years.

Social Rented Housing: Overcrowding Number of cases where disclosure Financial year requests sent

Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for April 2009 to March 2010 1,795 Communities and Local Government how many April 2010 to March 2011 4,355 people are living in housing association or local April 2011 to March 2012 3,980 authority housing classified as overcrowded in the most recent period for which figures are available. [151068] There may be other scenarios where an address is requested from a bank or building society, for example, Mr Prisk: I refer the hon. Member to my answer of during criminal investigations. However, these numbers 12 February 2013, Official Report, columns 612-3W. are not recorded for management purposes. 555W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 556W

Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hoban: The Construction (Head Protection) Work and Pensions in how many live Child Support Regulations 1989 (CHPR) are believed to have had a Agency (CSA) cases no action can currently be taken significant initial impact on serious and fatal head to (a) process an application and put a payment injuries on construction sites. Since that time, the wearing schedule into operation, (b) collect a maintenance of head protection has become largely culturally embedded liability and (c) take enforcement action because the in the industry and other regulations continue to provide CSA does not hold a confident address for the for an equivalent level of protection to be maintained. non-resident parent. [151320] Courts: Fines

Steve Webb: The information requested is not available Paul Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work as we do not routinely record this information for and Pensions if he will make an assessment of the management purposes. In order to source this information relationship between court-imposed fines and (a) it would involve checking each individual case, which reliance on payday loans, (b) homelessness and (c) would exceed the appropriate cost limit to provide. child poverty. [150080] However, the following information may provide some context: Mrs Grant: I have been asked to reply on behalf of (a) Where a valid application is made and the Child Support the Ministry of Justice. Agency (the agency) is able to trace details for a non-resident Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) parent, a payment schedule would always be put in place. If a does not have any way of identifying offenders who fall confident address could not be traced for the non-resident parent, into the groups mentioned. we would continue to pursue information such as referrals to HM HMCTS takes the issue of fine enforcement very Revenue and Customs, credit reference agencies and contact with the parent with care. seriously and as part of the future strategy, HMCTS will be considering numerous ways in which performance (b) There are a number of scenarios where the agency is unable to collect a maintenance liability or arrears. These include can be improved, which could include offender profiling. cases where the parent is untraceable, the parent is abroad, or the The information HMCTS holds on offenders is provided debt has been suspended. by the prosecuting authorities, the offenders themselves (c) Where a case is managed by our legal enforcement teams and by using the tracing tools HMCTS has at its and they are unable to trace a non-resident parent’s address the disposal such as the Experian credit reference agency case is moved into “case surveillance”. This involves using credit and the Department for Work and Pensions customer reference agencies to monitor changes in a non-resident parent’s information system. The means form, which defendants address or financial circumstances. If any changes occur, a report are asked to complete, requests details of income and is provided to support further negotiation or action. outgoings, including loan amounts they are repaying As of December 2012 there were 52,000 cases subject and how many dependant children they have, but as to case surveillance. many defendants do not provide financial means information to the court, HMCTS does not know what Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for other financial commitments they have. Work and Pensions how much the Child Support Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing Agency has spent on tracing the whereabouts of non-resident parents in each of the last four years. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work [151322] and Pensions what consideration his Department took of the household adaptation requirements of disabled Steve Webb: Information on the costs of tracing people in developing its plans for the under-occupancy non-resident parents and the internal costs of using penalty. [152138] external data sources is not available, as we do not record this level of detail. Additionally, “trace” is a task Steve Webb: We have recognised that there will be that is applicable to both the parent with care and certain circumstances where it makes no sense to move non-resident parent. someone from a property which has already been adapted The information provided in the following table shows into a different one and spend more on adaptations. the direct trace costs for using external data sources This is why the Discretionary Housing Payment Scheme (notably HM Revenue and Customs) in each of the last has been increased by £25 million from 2013-14, specifically four years. aimed at supporting those living in significantly adapted properties. Direct trace costs (£ million) We considered the arguments for exempting certain categories of claimants but do not believe that a blanket 2009-10 2.08 exemption appropriate. Such an exemption would not 2010-11 1.86 take account of the extent or costs of any adaptations 2011-12 1.19 and we believe DHPs offer a more flexible and cost-effective 2012-13 1.02 approach. Pay Construction (Head Protection) Regulations 1989 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what criteria are used in (a) his Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Department and (b) each public body for which he is Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of responsible to determine which officials receive bonus the effect of the Construction (Head Protection) payments. [151143] Regulations 1989 on the number of (a) fatalities and (b) injuries in workplaces. [151886] Mr Hoban: The information requested is as follows: 557W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 558W

Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) A higher percentage award will be made to those with The DWP operates two pay-related employee reward an ‘Outstanding’ end of year rating, than to those schemes. They comprise end of year non-consolidated ‘Exceeding Expectations’. payments and in-year non-consolidated payments. The Awards are pro-rated by the number of months employed Department uses these payments to motivate and engage in the reporting year. employees and ensure added value to business performance. Pensions Ombudsman/Pension Protection Fund Ombudsman End of year non-consolidated payments The Office of the Pensions Ombudsman pays annual End of year non-consolidated payments paid to non-consolidated performance bonuses which are awarded employees from administrative grades to Grade 6 during according to a performance ranking given at the year 2012-13, were made to those receiving a ‘consistently ending 31 March. Performance rankings range from ‘6’ good’ or ‘wholly exceptional’ end of year performance being equivalent to outstanding and ‘1’ being equivalent marking. to unsatisfactory.To receive an individual non-consolidated In the senior civil service the top 25% of senior civil performance bonus staff had to achieve a ranking of ‘4’ servants (SCS) receive an award, based on the achievement or above. of agreed objectives and how those objectives were Pension Protection Fund (PPF) achieved, in accordance with Cabinet Office guidance, which is available on: All Pension Protection Fund employees are eligible http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/recruitment/working/pay-and- to be considered for an annual bonus, determined by reward/scs-pay individual achievement in the previous financial year. End of year non-consolidated payments paid in one Each staff member is assessed against strict criteria set financial year are based on performance in the previous out in their balanced score card for objectives, and in performance year, e.g. payments made in 2012-13 relate their individual development plans for progress in to performance in the 12-month period from April 2011 competency levels. to March 2012. The Pensions Advisory Service In-year non-consolidated payments The Pensions Advisory Service makes performance DWP employees up to Grade 6 are eligible to be awards based on the outcome of the annual reviews for nominated for an in-year performance award. These are the period ending 31 August. The structure of the one-off payments, made to recognise exceptional award is that the team needs to exceed its objectives, achievements and/or contributions to business performance. and the team member needs to have at least met their In-year awards can be made at any time during the personal objectives and contributed to the team exceeding performance year and are paid either as retail vouchers its objectives for the period. between £25 and £50 or cash payments above £50. SCS The Pensions Regulator (TPR) are not eligible to receive these payments. TPR operates an annual discretionary non-consolidated The criteria used in DWP’s public bodies for officials bonus scheme which is designed to reward performance to receive bonuses are as follows: over and above the requirements of the job. Bonuses are Health and Safety Executive (HSE) a reward for past performance. SCS performance in HSE is assessed against the civil Bonus awards fall into two categories: strong and service wide guidance on performance management exceptional. A strong performance is considered to issued by Cabinet Office (see link above). significantly exceed expectations for this or similar roles, The performance of staff below SCS is assessed as detailed in the relevant role description, relevant annually against agreed work objectives. Top performing competencies and achievement of objectives. staff receive an additional non-consolidated and non- An exceptional performance is considered to be pensionable bonus. exceptional relative to expectations for this or similar Since HSE’s two-year pay freeze was introduced from roles, as detailed in the role description, relevant 1 October 2011, no bonus payments have been made to competencies and achievement of objectives. staff below SCS other than for a small group of staff Remploy Ltd with reserved rights from their previous Government Department. The payment of performance incentive payments to Independent Living Fund Remploy employees is subject to individuals meeting agreed business and individual targets. The business For Grade 7 and above, the chief executive officer targets include achieving and improving budgeted Operating makes recommendations to the Trustees Remuneration Result; job entry targets and achieving costs reductions. Committee on any bonus payments to be received. Individual targets relate to personal performance set Payment will be dependent of performance and against a number of objectives agreed with managers at achievements throughout the year up to a maximum of the start of the financial year. 5% of salary. For grades SEO and below, an organisational Personal Independence Payment discretionary bonus scheme is available. The bonus is based on organisational performance during a financial John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for year, i.e. April to March, To be eligible, employees must Work and Pensions what steps he will take to monitor meet relevant performance criteria. Capita and Atos in the approach they take with National Employment Savings Trust (NEST) Corporation personal independence payments applicants. [151227] NEST Corporation operates a robust performance management framework, including competencies which Esther McVey: The contracts with Atos and Capita capture the skills and behaviours rewarded as well as include service level agreements setting out the Department’s measuring achievement against objectives. expectations, including quality of assessments, number 559W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 560W of days to provide advice to the Department and evidence the decision and the evidence considered. Claimants of claimant satisfaction. These service level agreements will at this point be able to request a copy of their will be monitored and where appropriate financial remedies assessment report if they wish to do so. will be applied. John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will take steps to ensure that Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of personal independence payment applicants are 21 March 2013, Official Report, columns 751-2W, on reminded to provide additional evidence if they are personal independence payment, if he will estimate the particularly vulnerable, have difficulties self-reporting number of potential personal independence payment their condition or if their conditions fluctuate. [151598] applicants who do not have a landline telephone in (a) Glasgow North West constituency, (b) Glasgow, (c) Esther McVey: Questions during the claim stage identify Scotland and (d) the UK. [151324] those claimants with additional support needs and this information remains visible throughout the journey. Esther McVey: The Department has no plans to Once a claimant has submitted their claim we will send estimate the number of potential claimants to personal them a form on which they will be able to provide independence payment who do not have a landline. additional details in support of their claim. The form We will offer freephone lines for people to make a will ask claimants to describe, in their own words, how personal independence payment claim. Calls to the their disability or impairment affects them. It also 0800 numbers are free from BT landlines and most recommends that any further medical evidence is returned mobiles and will only take a short time. We can call along with the form. This might include information claimants back on request. from the family members. Claimants will also be encouraged to bring someone Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for with them to any face-to-face consultations to support Work and Pensions whether Atos will perform health them and, where appropriate, help the health professional assessments for the personal independence payment; understand the claimant’s circumstances. and if he will make a statement. [151399] John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Esther McVey: Atos will be carrying out assessments Work and Pensions what recent discussions he has had in Scotland, North West and North East England, and with Atos on personal independence payment in London and Southern England. Capita Business applicants and (a) their choice of location for Services will be carrying out assessments in Wales and assessment and (b) their choice of times and dates for central England. assessment. [151599] Atos and Capita were selected following the usual Esther McVey: Atos will be working with physiotherapy procedures for open and fair competition and assessed clinics, local hospitals and medical centres to offer PIP against established and published selection criteria. claimants familiar surroundings and experienced health professionals. All consultation centres will meet accessibility John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for standards as defined in the Equality Act 2010. If a Work and Pensions what plans he has to ensure audio face-to-face consultation is required, claimants will be recording is available for all personal independence invited to the most convenient location but will be able payment assessments. [151518] to request a different time or location if necessary.

Esther McVey: Audio recording of PIP assessments Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for will not be offered by Atos or Capita. The DWP has not Work and Pensions how a deaf person will be informed seen evidence from other disability assessments that this of any decision on their application for personal would improve the quality of assessments. If claimants independence payments. [151611] wish to record their assessment they must inform the assessor in advance and provide the assessor with a Esther McVey: All claimants for personal independence copy of the recording. payment will be notified in writing of the outcome of their application including the reasons for the decision. John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for number of days there will be between a personal Work and Pensions if he will take steps to ensure that independence payment assessment and the claimant all potential applicants for the personal independence receiving a copy of the assessor’s report. [151519] payment will be aware that they can request a paper form if they do not use a telephone. [151613] Esther McVey: Decisions on benefit entitlement will rest with a departmental decision maker. The assessor’s Esther McVey: In exceptional circumstances, where a report forms just one part of the evidence for a claim. claimant is unable to deal with the Department for We do not routinely provide the report to claimants Work and Pensions (DWP) by phone, or needs extra following assessment as this could give a false impression help, they can request a paper version of the personal to the claimant on the outcome of their claim. The independence payment (PIP) initial claim form. This length of time taken to make a formal decision on captures the same basic information that DWP take entitlement will vary depending on the nature of each over the phone. The forms will be personalised to the claim. Claimants will receive a letter from the decision individual who requested them, and should not be maker including a summary explaining the reasons for copied or used for other claimants. 561W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 562W

DWP Communications will appropriately publicise Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for the availability of this facility in its public information Work and Pensions whether ATOS will be required to about PIP. match claimants with the most appropriate assessor wherever possible during the personal independence Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for payment assessment process. [151969] Work and Pensions what steps he has taken to ensure that the claim process for personal independence Esther McVey: Both Atos and Capita are required to payment will be accessible to deaf people. [151614] ensure that the health professionals carrying out assessments have knowledge of the clinical aspects and likely functional Esther McVey: DWP is committed to enabling effects of a wide range of health conditions and communication with claimants who are deaf, hard of impairments. The Department does not believe that it is hearing or speech impaired. We have standard processes necessary for providers to deploy health professionals in place across all of DWP to support deaf people. To who are specialists in the specific conditions or impairments enable people to make their own claim, a third party of the individuals they are assessing. Instead the focus can act as interpreter and “be their voice” as long as the is on ensuring that the health professionals are experts claimant is present during that call. DWP staff have in disability analysis, focusing on the effects of health guidance to help them understand the help required conditions and impairments on the individual claimant’s and support available via alternative formats. daily life.

Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Universal Credit Work and Pensions what arrangements will be made for the accountability of assessors during the personal independence payment assessment process. [151967] John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Esther McVey: All personal independence payment the effect of freezing the minimum wage on the number health professionals must go through a comprehensive of people claiming universal credit. [151494] training programme and pass an assessment of competence before they can carry out assessments. In addition, they Mr Hoban: No such assessment has been made within must be approved by the Department’s Chief Medical universal credit. From 1 October 2013 the following Advisor. A programme of audit will confirm that individual changes will be made to national minimum wage (NMW) health professionals continue to meet these standards. rates. Where a health professional’s advice is of poor quality From October 2013: and could result in an incorrect decision, the case will The adult rate will increase by 12p to £6.31 an hour fail the audit activity. Where assessors fall below the The rate for 18 to 20-year-olds will increase by 5p to £5.03 an required standards and do not improve, processes are in hour place to revoke their approval to carry out assessments. The rate for 16 to 17-year-olds will increase by 4p to £3.72 an Assessment providers must conform to a rigorous set of hour performance measures regarding the quality of advice. The rate for apprentices will increase by 3p to £2.68 an hour If the provider fails to deliver against these measures, and agreed service credits will be applied. The accommodation offset will increase by 9p to £4.91 per day. Ultimately the Department has the right to terminate The Government is committed to the NMW because the contract if there is sustained underperformance in a of the protection it provides to low paid workers and range of areas. the incentives it provides to work. Around 2 million of Britain’s lowest-paid workers will gain from these changes. Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Updated forecasts of welfare spending, taking account Work and Pensions whether ATOS is to be required to of this and other relevant factors, will be published with offer claimants a choice of a home visit or centre based the autumn statement. assessment as part of the personal independence payment assessment process as in the case with Capita. [151968] John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what plans he has to keep universal Esther McVey: Atos is not required to offer claimants credit disregards in line with tax allowance decisions. the choice of a home visit. The contracts between the [151600] Department for Work and Pensions and Atos, and Capita, set out the circumstances in which face-to-face Mr Hoban: The universal credit work allowance means consultations will take place in the claimant’s home. that people’s earnings up to a certain level are ignored These are: when calculating how much universal credit a person at the claimant’s request, if the assessor agrees that their health should receive. This means people with earnings below condition or disability means they are unable to travel; that level will keep the full value of their award and they will see a cash reward straight away for moving into when the claimant provides confirmation, through the professional providing evidence to support their claim, that indicates they are work. The work allowances are more generous than the unable to travel on health grounds; or disregards in the current benefit system, which is one at the DWP’s request, although these will be exceptional reason why people will see a clearer reward from working circumstances. when universal credit is introduced. Capita has chosen to develop a business model which In addition, we announced in the autumn statement offers claimants the choice of a home visit although this 5 December 2012, Official Report, columns 871-882: is not a contractual requirement. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/as2012_index.htm 563W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 564W that we will increase the universal credit work allowances Mrs Grant: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service by 1% in 2014-15 and 2015-16. This is more generous (HMCTS) does not have access to offender profile again than the current system, where disregards have information which shows the reasons why offenders fail not been uprated routinely in recent years. to comply with payment terms. People in receipt of universal credit will see a smaller HMCTS takes the issue of fine enforcement very increase to their income following the personal allowance seriously and is working to ensure that clamping down increase than those who do not receive benefits. However, on fine defaulters is a continued priority nationwide. the Government believes that increasing the personal HMCTS are always looking at ways to improve the allowance is the most effective way to support those on collection of fines. As a part of the future strategy low and middle incomes, because it enables people to HMCTS will be considering numerous ways in which keep more of the money they earn. performance can be improved, which could include offender profiling. John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether the April 2013 tax The information HMCTS holds on offenders is provided allowance increase was taken into account when the by the prosecuting authorities, the offenders themselves, and by using the tracing tools HMCTS has at its disregards for universal credit were designed. [151641] disposal such as the Experian credit reference agency Mr Hoban: The universal credit work allowance means and the Department for Work and Pensions customer that people’s earnings up to a certain level are ignored information system. Payment plans are agreed based on when calculating how much universal credit a person the financial information provided by the offenders to should receive. This means people with earnings below enable those who are unable to pay in full at once to that level will keep the full value of their award and they complete the payments of their fines over a reasonable will see a cash reward straight away for moving into period of time. work. The work allowances are more generous than the The information obtained from these sources does disregards in out-of-work benefits, which is one reason not provide any indication why certain groups of offenders why people will see a clearer reward from, working fail to follow the agreed payment plans. when universal credit is introduced. People in receipt of universal credit will see a smaller Paul Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for increase to their income following the personal allowance Justice if he will make an assessment of the increase than those who do not receive benefits. However, relationship between (a) illness, (b) debt and (c) the Government believes that increasing the personal family breakdown and the late payment of court fines. allowance is the most effective way to support those on [150081] low and middle incomes, because it enables people to keep more of the money they earn. Mrs Grant: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service Work Experience Programme: Scotland (HMCTS) does not have any way of identifying offenders who fall into the groups mentioned. Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for HMCTS takes the issue of fine enforcement very Work and Pensions how many people in Scotland were seriously and as part of the future strategy, HMCTS involved in work experience under the Work will be considering numerous ways in which performance Programme benefit scheme in each of the last five years can be improved, which could include offender profiling. for which figures are available; and what the average The information HMCTS holds on offenders is provided number of working days worked was. [151795] by the prosecuting authorities, the offenders themselves and by using the tracing tools HMCTS has at its Mr Hoban: Official statistics on Work Programme disposal such as the Experian credit reference agency participants involved in work experience are not available. and the Department for Work and Pensions customer information system. The means form, which defendants are asked to complete, requests details of income and JUSTICE outgoings, including loan amounts they are repaying Legal Aid Scheme and how many dependant children they have, but as many defendants do not provide financial means Dr McCrea: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice information to the court, HMCTS does not know what what recent discussions he has had with the devolved other financial commitments they have. Administrations on legal aid. [150263] Jeremy Wright: Legal aid policy is devolved to Scotland Police Cautions and Northern Ireland. Legal aid issues are an occasional feature of ministerial discussions with colleagues in the Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice devolved Administrations. Ministry of Justice officials (1) what the average number of previous convictions are also in contact with their counterparts in the devolved was of those issued with a caution in each year from Administrations. 2002 to 2012 (a) in England and Wales and (b) by Offenders: Fines police authority area; [140270] (2) how many people issued with a caution had (a) Paul Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for no previous convictions, (b) one to five previous Justice what steps he is taking to improve offender convictions, (c) six to 10 previous convictions, (d) 11 profile information; and what analysis is made of the to 20 previous convictions and (e) over 20 previous reasons why some offenders fail to comply with their convictions (i) in England and Wales and (ii) by police payment plans for fines. [150076] authority area in each year from 2002 to 2012. [140271] 565W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 566W

Jeremy Wright: The use of cautions is at its lowest need to affordable within the context of the Ministry of level for more than five years, as is the number of Justice’s commitment to deliver annual savings of over cautions issued to those who have a previous criminal £2 billion by 2014-15. We will bring forward detailed record. However, the public and victims have a right to plans in due course. expect that people who commit serious crimes should be brought before a court. On 3 April 2013 we launched Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice a review into the use of cautions which will focus on the what arrangements his Department plans to put in use of cautions for serious offences and persistent offenders. place to deal with complaints against private Among other things, the review will examine whether companies and the voluntary sector as part of his plans there are some offences for which the use of simple for transforming rehabilitation. [150372] cautions is generally inappropriate, the reasons why multiple cautions are given to some criminals and the Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice’s consultation difference in the use of cautions by police force areas. on plans for reforming the way in which offenders are The review is a significant step to ensuring that cautions rehabilitated in the community closed on 22 February. are used correctly, in the interests of justice, and command We are committed to maintaining high professional the confidence of the public. The review will be completed standards across the probation service and are drawing by the end of May 2013. on the responses to the consultation to develop an appropriate approach to maintaining these standards. The figures used to answer the PQs are based on We will bring forward detailed plans in due course. counts of caution occasions. An individual may have more than one caution occasion within each year. Where there is more than one offence on the same occasion Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice only the primary offence is counted for which a caution (1) what the 12-month reoffending rates were for those is given. In addition please note that the police force under supervision by each probation trust in each year information only relates to the most recent caution and since 1997; [150378] police forces for previous cautions/convictions may differ. (2) what the 12-month reoffending rates were for In response to PQ 140270 Table 3 shows the average people under supervision by the probation service in number of previous convictions committed by offenders each year since 1997. [150379] receiving a caution in each year from 2002 to June 2012, for England and Wales. Jeremy Wright: The information is as follows: In response to PQ 140271 Table 4 (part i) and table 5 PQ150378 (part ii) show the number of previous convictions for These figures are published quarterly and can be offenders committing an offence and receiving a caution found in table 24 (adult offenders starting court orders) in each year from 2002 to June 2012, England and and 25 (adult offenders released from prison on licence) Wales. in the publication ‘Proven re-offending Statistics Quarterly The use of cautions fell dramatically with the change Bulletin’ and available via this link: in emphasis of the Offences Bought to Justice target in http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/reoffending/proven-re- 2008, and the final removal of the Offences Brought to offending Justice measure in 2010. PQ150379 These figures have been drawn from the police’s These figures are published quarterly and can be administrative IT system, the police national computer, found in table 18a (for adult offenders starting court which, as with any large scale recording system, is orders) and Table 25 (adult offenders released from subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. prison on licence) in the publication ‘Proven re-offending The figures are provisional and subject to change as Statistics Quarterly Bulletin’ and available via this link: more information is recorded by the police. http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/reoffending/proven-re- I have placed copies of these tables in the House offending Library. Sexual Offences: Police Cautions Probation Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for Justice how many people in each police force area (1) what estimate his Department has made of the have received (a) one and (b) more than one caution investment needed in IT systems in order to implement for sexual offences in the last year. [146965] the proposals in the consultation paper Transforming Rehabilitation, published in January 2013; [150367] Jeremy Wright: The use of cautions is at its lowest (2) what assessment his Department has made of the level for more than five years, as is the number of ability of its IT systems to implement his plans for cautions issued to those who have a previous criminal transforming rehabilitation. [150370] record. However, the public and victims have a right to expect that people who commit serious crimes should Jeremy Wright: The Department’s current ICT be brought before a court. On 3 April 2013 we launched infrastructure and some of its systems will be modified a review into the use of cautions which will focus on the to support the transforming rehabilitation proposals, use of cautions for serious offences and persistent offenders. including facilitating the sharing of information with a Among other things, the review will examine whether number of different providers. Providers will develop there are some offences for which the use of simple their own ICT systems to support their business processes. cautions is generally inappropriate, the reasons why Any changes to the ICT infrastructure and systems multiple cautions are given to some criminals and the 567W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 568W difference in the use of cautions by police force areas. Table 1: Number of offenders given a caution for a sexual offence, split by police force area and number of cautions given, in England and Wales 12 months The review is a significant step to ensuring that cautions ending September 2012 are used correctly, in the interests of justice, and command Number of cautions1 the confidence of the public. The review will be completed Police force One More than one by the end of May 2013. Wiltshire 14 0 The table shows the number of people given one, and 1 The data in Table 1 includes caution occasions and the primary offence more than one, caution for a sexual offence in England committed for each caution occasion is the one used to determine the offence type. Where an individual has more than one caution within the year, the police and Wales in the 12 months ending September 2012 (the force of the most recent caution has been used. latest data available). Source: Ministry of Justice The decision whether to offer a caution is an operational These figures have been drawn from the police’s matter for the police and in some circumstances the administrative IT system, the police national computer, CPS depending on the circumstances of the offence and which, as with any large scale recording system, is offender. Court will always be the right place for serious subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. and contested cases and those involving prolific offenders. The figures are provisional and subject to change as However, there will always be exceptional cases in which more information is recorded by the police. a prosecution for what appears to be a relatively serious offence is not in the public or the victim’s interest. Telephone Services Table 1: Number of offenders given a caution for a sexual offence, split by police John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice force area and number of cautions given, in England and Wales 12 months ending September 2012 (1) for each of the principal access numbers operated Number of cautions1 by (a) his Department and (b) the agencies for which Police force One More than one he is responsible, what revenue has been retained by (i) the telephone provider for that line and (ii) his Avon and Somerset 55 0 Department in each of the last three years; [149999] Bedfordshire 14 0 (2) which telephone lines are operated by (a) his British Transport Police 18 0 Department and (b) the agencies for which he is Cambridgeshire 26 0 responsible for public enquiries or other services; what Cheshire 14 0 the (i) principal access number and (ii) telephone City of London 1 0 service provider is for each number; and which such Cleveland 20 0 lines (A) are free to the caller and (B) may incur a Cumbria 8 0 charge to the caller. [150022] Derbyshire 18 0 Devon and Cornwall 60 0 Mrs Grant: For the purposes of this answer, ’principal Dorset 13 0 access numbers’ have been interpreted as being the Durham 26 0 main public inquiry lines which the Department is Dyfed-Powys 26 0 responsible for supplying. These are listed as follows, Essex 46 0 together with their relevant service suppliers. Gloucestershire 13 0 Ministry of Justice: 020 3334 3555—Colt; Greater Manchester 53 0 National Offender Management Service (including HM Prison Gwent 18 0 Service): 0300 047 6325—Level 3; Hampshire 41 0 Judicial Appointments and Conduct Ombudsman: 020 3334 Hertfordshire 24 0 2900—Colt Humberside 35 0 Law Commission: 020 3334 0200—Colt Kent 69 0 Office of the Public Guardian: 0300 456 0300—TalkTalk; Lancashire 66 0 Official Solicitor: 020 7911 7127—Level 3; Leicestershire 45 0 The Parole Board: 0300 047 4600—Level 3; Lincolnshire 23 0 Youth Justice Board: 020 3334 5300—Colt. Merseyside 14 0 Metropolitan Police 146 0 Calls to these numbers may incur a charge to the Norfolk 32 0 caller. The Ministry does not hold information on what North Wales 15 0 revenue has been obtained by the telephone provider for North Yorkshire 12 0 these lines in each of the last three years. No revenue Northamptonshire 5 0 has been retained by the Department for these lines in Northumbria 50 0 each of the last three years. Nottinghamshire 49 0 South Wales 17 0 CHURCH COMMISSIONERS South Yorkshire 30 0 Staffordshire 43 0 Bishops: Females Suffolk 20 0 Miss McIntosh: To ask the hon. Member for Surrey 18 0 Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, Sussex 37 0 what recent progress the Church Commissioners have Thames Valley 50 0 made on legislation relating to women bishops. [152199] Warwickshire 11 0 West Mercia 36 2 Sir Tony Baldry: As I reported to the House on the West Midlands 65 0 7 March 2013, in my answer to the hon. Member for West Yorkshire 57 0 Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), Official 569W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 570W

Report, column 1122, the consultation document issued Miss Chloe Smith: As part of the move to individual on 8 February generated 376 responses by the closing electoral registration (IER), the Government has taken date of 28 February. Of these, 10 were from organisations into account those with no fixed address and will continue and, three from bishops. Of the remaining 363 submissions, to provide a facility for these individuals to register to 154 were from General Synod members and 209 from vote by allowing them to complete a ‘Declaration of others. Local Connection’ as at present. Such electors include The Working Group has had three further meetings residents on boats/house boats and people of no fixed since the end of February, the last of them involving residence. further facilitated discussions with those who had met Under IER, such applicants will be required to provide with the group for two days in February. as part of the declaration, the same personal identifiers At its next meeting the group will conclude its report as other categories of applicants, and an exceptions to the House of Bishops. It will be for the House to process will be available for applicants who do not have decide at its meeting on 20-21 May what legislative a national insurance number. proposals to bring to the next General Synod meeting A boat, houseboat or other residence which has a in July. permanent mooring is treated by registration officers as a permanent dwelling in which an elector may be resident for registration purposes, and residents can be registered DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER as electors in the standard way. If the boat or other Commission on the Consequences of Devolution for the residence does not have a permanent mooring, then it is House of Commons open to the resident(s) to make a Declaration of Local Connection. The residents should register at a place Mr Frank Field: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister where they spend the most time or where they have when he expects to respond to the Report of the some connection, such as the area where they were last Commission on the Consequences of Devolution for permanently registered or any boatyard they may use the House of Commons. [151378] for maintenance. Miss Chloe Smith: The Government established the Lobbying McKay Commission to consider how the House of Commons might deal with legislation which affects Chi Onwurah: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister only part of the UK. when the Government will respond to the Second The Government is grateful to the Commission for its Report of the Political and Constitutional Reform work. This is a very important issue, which is why the Committee, Introducing a statutory register of Government asked this expert Commission to consider lobbyists, HC 153, published on 10 July 2012. [151812] it. We are giving the report serious consideration before Miss Chloe Smith: The Government is grateful to the we respond. Political and Constitutional Reform Committee for its Dementia inquiry into our consultation on initial proposals for a statutory register of lobbyists and for its subsequent Oliver Colvile: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister report. whether his Office has a dementia strategy. [151823] Given the volume and substance of the evidence The Deputy Prime Minister: I consider dementia and submitted both to the consultation and the Committee, mental health to be a priority for Government. That is the Government is taking the time to give the matter why the Cabinet Office and the Department of Health sufficiently detailed consideration. We will publish our are supporting the Dementia Friends Campaign with a response to the Committee in due course. grant of £2.4 million. This is being delivered in partnership with the Alzheimer’s society. The Dementia Friends campaign aims to train over CABINET OFFICE 6,000 dementia friends’ champions who will each recruit and train at least 150 people, resulting in 1 million Big Lottery Fund: North Lanarkshire dementia friends by 2015. More information can be found here: Pamela Nash: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet http://www.dementiafriends.org.uk/ Office how many (a) successful and (b) unsuccessful applications for Big Lottery funding were received This campaign compliments the Prime Minister’s from (i) Airdrie and Shotts constituency and (ii) North challenge to create more ‘Dementia Friendly Communities’, Lanarkshire local authority area in each of the last five which is part of the Alzheimer’s Society’s five-year years. [150569] strategy, ‘Delivering on Dementia’. More information can be found at: Mr Hurd: The following tables provide information http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/ on the number of awards made by the Big Lottery documents_info.php?documentID=1843 Fund and the number of unsuccessful applications Electoral Register received between 1 April 2007 and 31 March 2012. The figures relate only to full applications, includes Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister applications that were withdrawn by the applicant. The what consideration he gave to assisting (a) narrow- criteria applied is whether the address of our main boat tenants and (b) other people with no fixed postal contact is in the specific location—this does not necessarily address to register to vote under his plans for mean the beneficiaries of the funding are in the same individual voter registration. [151928] location. 571W Written Answers18 APRIL 2013 Written Answers 572W

Airdrie and Shotts constituency North Lanarkshire local authority area Number of Number of Financial year applications Number of awards Financial year applications Number of awards

2007-08 46 28 2007-08 199 117 2008-09 44 30 2008-09 188 113 2009-10 71 47 2009-10 243 168 2010-11 60 32 2010-11 233 133 2011-12 59 36 2011-12 226 142 Grand total 280 173 Grand total 1,089 673 Total value: £3,695,556 Total value: £14,549,265

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 18 April 2013

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 465 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 481 Broadband ...... 467 (Clauses 1, 3, 16, 183, 184 and 200 to 212, Broadband ...... 468 Schedules 3 and 41, and certain new Clauses Broadband ...... 472 and new Schedules)...... 506 First World War Centenary...... 471 Earnings: Gender...... 481 Gaming Machines...... 474 Government Policy: Disabled People ...... 485 Inland Waterways: Tourism ...... 470 Human Trafficking ...... 484 Regional Arts Funding ...... 465 Senior Business Posts ...... 483 Small Companies: Arts ...... 473 Workplace Potential...... 482 Telecommunications Market...... 475 Topical Questions ...... 477 Tourism...... 476 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 18 April 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 33WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Land Registry ...... 33WS continued General Affairs, Foreign Affairs, and Defence ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Foreign Affairs Councils...... 36WS AFFAIRS...... 34WS JUSTICE...... 40WS Sheep Industry (Severe Weather)...... 34WS Courts and Tribunals (Fee Remissions)...... 40WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 35WS TREASURY ...... 33WS Consular Strategy 2013-16 ...... 35WS UK Convergence Programme (2012-13)...... 33WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 18 April 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 528W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Computers ...... 528W continued Credit...... 528W Social Rented Housing: Empty Property...... 552W Electric Motors: Industry...... 529W Social Rented Housing: EU Nationals ...... 553W Employee Ownership ...... 529W Social Rented Housing: Overcrowding...... 553W Genetically Modified Organisms: Wheat...... 529W Graduates: Employment ...... 530W Graduates: Unemployment...... 531W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 540W Higher Education...... 531W Broadband ...... 540W Higher Education: Finance ...... 533W Entertainments: Licensing ...... 540W Higher Education: Part-time Education...... 535W Freeview...... 540W Lung Diseases: Research...... 535W Television: Licensing ...... 541W Nuclear Power...... 537W Postgraduate Education ...... 537W Telephone Services...... 538W DEFENCE...... 524W Visits Abroad ...... 540W 16 Air Assault Brigade ...... 524W Armed Forces: Recruitment...... 525W Armed Forces: Sexual Harassment...... 525W CABINET OFFICE...... 570W Army: Snow and Ice...... 526W Big Lottery Fund: North Lanarkshire ...... 570W Burma...... 526W Military Exercises ...... 527W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 568W Radioactive Materials...... 527W Bishops: Females ...... 568W Unmanned Air Vehicles...... 527W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 551W Fire Services...... 551W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 569W Fire Services: Private Sector...... 551W Commission on the Consequences of Devolution Government Procurement Card ...... 551W for the House of Commons ...... 569W Housing: Construction...... 551W Dementia ...... 569W Local Government ...... 552W Electoral Register...... 569W Right to Buy Scheme ...... 552W Lobbying...... 570W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 541W JUSTICE—continued Children: Day Care ...... 541W Police Cautions ...... 564W Education: Secure Accommodation ...... 541W Probation ...... 565W Email ...... 542W Sexual Offences: Police Cautions ...... 566W Faith Schools ...... 542W Telephone Services...... 568W GCE AS-level ...... 543W GCSE ...... 543W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 549W Ministers: Codes of Practice ...... 544W Bill of Rights ...... 549W Pre-school Education: Special Educational Needs . 544W Devolution...... 549W Pupil Exclusions: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 544W Recruitment ...... 549W Pupils: Travellers ...... 545W Security...... 550W Residence Orders ...... 545W Staff ...... 550W Schools: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 547W Visits Abroad ...... 550W Secondment ...... 547W PRIME MINISTER...... 513W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 548W Short Money...... 513W Telephone Services...... 548W Visits Abroad ...... 548W SCOTLAND...... 511W Computers ...... 511W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Dementia ...... 511W AFFAIRS...... 513W Devolution...... 511W Allowances...... 513W Government Procurement Card...... 512W Ivory ...... 514W Public Expenditure ...... 512W Phenylbutazone...... 514W Staff ...... 512W Recruitment ...... 515W Transport ...... 513W Staff ...... 515W Visits Abroad...... 513W Timber: EU Law...... 516W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 503W TRANSPORT ...... 506W Burma...... 503W Aviation ...... 506W Fossil Fuels: Subsidies...... 503W Dementia ...... 506W Sri Lanka ...... 504W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 507W Tibet ...... 504W Highways Agency: Cumbria...... 507W Visits Abroad ...... 505W Motorcycles ...... 507W Perry Barr Station...... 507W Railways...... 507W HEALTH...... 495W Railways: Bus Services ...... 508W Anaemia ...... 495W Railways: Franchises ...... 508W Continuing Care ...... 495W Railways: Greater London ...... 509W Dementia ...... 495W Railways: Standards...... 509W Domestic Violence ...... 495W Shipping: Training ...... 509W Fertility ...... 496W General Medical Council ...... 497W Housing: Disability ...... 497W TREASURY ...... 517W Nanotoxicologies ...... 498W Computers ...... 517W NHS: Disclosure of Information ...... 498W Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks...... 518W Social Services...... 498W Financial Services: Cyprus...... 519W Typhoid ...... 499W Gift Aid: Kilmarnock ...... 519W Inheritance Tax...... 519W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 499W Minimum Wage ...... 521W Commission on Security and Cooperation in Mobile Phones...... 521W Europe ...... 499W Mortgages: Government Assistance ...... 521W Confiscation Orders ...... 500W Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties ...... 522W Human Trafficking ...... 500W Pay...... 522W Immigration...... 500W Revenue and Customs...... 522W Julian Assange ...... 501W Staff ...... 522W Members: Correspondence ...... 501W Tax Allowances...... 523W Passports: Gender Recognition ...... 501W Taxation: Bingo ...... 523W Police Cautions ...... 501W Telephone Services...... 524W Recall of Parliament ...... 502W Tonnage Tax ...... 524W Seasonal Agricultural Workers’ Scheme...... 502W Welfare Tax Credits ...... 524W UK Border Agency ...... 502W Visits Abroad ...... 503W WALES...... 509W Domestic Visits...... 509W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 516W Pay...... 510W Burma...... 516W Recruitment ...... 510W Recruitment ...... 517W Staff ...... 510W Syria...... 517W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 547W JUSTICE...... 563W Equality Impact Assessments...... 547W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 563W Women’s Business Council ...... 547W Offenders: Fines...... 563W Working Mothers...... 548W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 554W WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Apprentices...... 554W Pay...... 556W Children: Maintenance ...... 554W Personal Independence Payment...... 558W Construction (Head Protection) Regulations 1989. 555W Universal Credit...... 562W Courts: Fines ...... 556W Work Experience Programme: Scotland...... 563W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 556W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 25 April 2013

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CONTENTS

Thursday 18 April 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 465] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Minister for Women and Equalities

Business of the House [Col. 489] Statement—(Mr Lansley)

Finance (No. 2) Bill [Col. 506] Further considered in Committee

Obstetric and Paediatric Services (East Sussex) [Col. 612] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall UN Framework Convention on Climate Change [Col. 141WH] Low-Carbon Growth Links (China) [Col. 171WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 33WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 495W] [see index inside back page]