Announcer: Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. a Podcast Where Therapists Freely Speak Their

Episode 11: Announcer: Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. A podcast where therapists freely speak their minds about real life matters.

Patty: Hi. I’m Patty Olwell, I’m here with my co-host, Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott, and with the election going on right now we thought it would be a great time to talk about power and influence. So, join us and listen.

Ann: It is such a timely thing to talk about power and influence. People get so caught up with the concept of power and there is this plethora research in the idea of power and politics. There is just power in every relationship that we have, power in influence whether it is with our spouse or children like how do you….

Patty: Or our employees or bosses…

Sue: Yeah. Or our presidential candidates (laughing).

Ann: The interesting thing is I’ve been dying to talk about this with regard to relationships. A parent-child, couples, etc. because there is such a concept of how do you maintain personal power inside yourself in any relationship you have and how is power related to influence. If you look at research on power, it is often.. it’s actually defined, interestingly enough, in research as the ability to influence with while resisting the influence of the other.

Patty: Wow.

Ann: If you think about that, let that sink in, the power to influence while being able to resist the influence of others.

Sue: Well that’s interesting because I think of…like again when you specifically get just political but like I think of Obama, our world leader currently who is seen as, and has a very high approval rating and is seen as very powerful but I don’t perceive him necessarily as not as like resisting the influence of other people or…

Ann: Exactly because that is what I think it is really important for us to talk about. What is the difference between power in and of itself and power as an influencer as to be able to influence somebody and you can have power and yet exert a really wonderful aspect of influence. So that’s why I wanted to talk about the difference. Let me clarify the difference of what I’m speaking of when I talk about power vs being able to be influential with somebody while in a relationship. So really core definition of power, and one that you can see played out and in relationships in different ways even if you don’t mean for it to is the one person is able, because they hold a resources, basically to change somebody’s behavior because there is a threat of withdrawal of resources. So, in other words, I want to feel powerful, and I don’t have trust that I actually can influence you so instead I’m going to exert the sense of power over you whether it’s because I have the authority to fire you, to coerce you, to remove, if we get more relational, to withdraw from you, remove my affection from you. So therefore you end up getting the person who feels less powerful in the relationship to comply, but it’s not voluntary, it not a voluntary compliance, it’s I’m complying out of fear and as opposed to an influence, power through influence and a power through influence would be more like thinking about “I want to influence somebody” and it’s a voluntary change, it’s a change that you are going to give. I’m going to be able to ask you for something, but I am going to ask you in such a way that you feel valuable and that I’m working on helping you change the way you perceive things or maybe behave but it’s voluntary, it’s given to me instead of taken.

Patty: You know and the word that comes up for me when you describe that is it’s negotiated.

Ann: Yes. It’s worked through and it involves trust and so..

Patty: Not a one way street.

Ann: Exactly. And I think sometimes we can unintentionally get involved in a power struggle in all sorts of relationships…with our children if we fear that we can’t influence them without exerting our power or our partner, our siblings…

Patty: You know John Gottman talks about it a lot, he calls it resisting influence and his analogy or his image that he calls up is sort of somebody lobs a suggestion at you and you batted away right, and he lobbed another suggestion and you batted away and you know this is a dynamic that shows up in some couples a lot.

Sue: Right and I think you know power isn’t bad. Like there is somebody in any dyad that has to take a support of position and it’s a valuable position to take, but I think what you are saying is if it’s like Patty said, if it’s negotiated and if it’s valued that you are being supportive so I think about…

Ann: And it’s given…

Sue: And it is shared and given right so…

Ann: You can’t give your power away you feel trust and you feel a wanting to give it rather than it being invoked out of fear.

Sue: Right so I think about in many couples there is one person of the couple that will typically control the remote control and interrupt a little more and be the decision maker and things like that. Not and that same person maybe at work is more in the support position perhaps and so there is this very subtle power dynamics that happen that are related to the perception of power in the relationship whether that often be related to income or perceived status and the relationship, it’s not always gender, can be gender.

Patty: You know I also think that in some couples it is flipped based on subject matter… Sue: Right.

Patty: That you know one person has more power around finances maybe and then other person has more power around how the kids are raised…

Ann: Right.

Patty: And other person really cares about what the house looks like and how it’s decorated and where they live so I don’t…a lot of couple I think flips back and forth…

Ann: I think that’s really natural in a relationship. You need to share, you can’t have when we talk about influence, we are not trying to talk about equality that everything is divided fairly, that we have 50% decision making on how every child decision is made or it’s the perception that you are valued in your opinion and your thoughts about that you feel valued and you are willingly giving that up instead of that you have no voice I think. If you really stopped to think about it ,I might really giving up the financial flowing the financial decisions just because I have trust and I feel valued.

Sue: But dig a little deeper about what the problem is here, is this all sounds nice and sweet. However, you know when the rubber hits the road there are times when I don’t want to give up power.

Ann: Exactly.

Sue: And as a matter of fact to let you influence me feels quite threatening like I’m giving up something quite vital. And I think some of that we are seeing on the national level you know on a number of levels. You know really whatever the demographic you know the police officer concerned about their own safety, the person pulled over very concerned about their own safety.

Ann: Right. When you don’t have trust….

Sue: Absolutely there is a safety thing but so compassion looking at the person who is there is someone bidding to have influence and if the person who is in power feels threatened and I’m not saying there is actual threat, but if there is ..it that amygdala is firing and jaws music playing, it is going to be very hard getting into this free flowing sweet state that we are talking about of negotiating influence.

Patty: Right

Sue: And I think somewhat you are getting at is you know that’s when it gets a little dark.

Ann: Well I think it can get dark on lots of different ways you made a really good point Sue and I invite the listeners to think about … whether you feel safety, and that can be evoked inside you, it’s not always evoked by somebody else.

Sue: Right. Ann: It could be you might be afraid to have power because you don’t trust yourself when you willing give it away..

Sue: It’s a great point…

Ann: And then we can willingly give away our power ..

Sue : Here take the wheel,

Ann: And then find ourselves voiceless and a little resentful

Sue: I can’t believe you are driving that way, “here take the wheel” “why are we going there” “this restaurant is terrible” (laughing)

Patty: I was thinking of restaurant example, we all know people who want to go eat, “How about this?” “No” “How about this?” “No”.

Sue: “This service is terrible” “This food is terrible”

Ann: So I think idea of…and I don’t think it’s all one way or the other…I think very few relationships, of course, there are some where one person exponentially dominates the other person and that’s a really important topic but we are talking about how does power go back and forth in any kind of relationship. And so, sometimes we willingly give it up and then we don’t even realize we do it because we are used to maintaining more submissive role or maybe we have fear of our own authority. Sometimes we take power because we are afraid, if we don’t we have trust that somebody is going to take care of our own interests. And I think that I can see that happening a lot like the fear of being controlled is a big concept. If I give up my power and I don’t state it then I am going to lose something and that creates…

Patty: Rigidity…

Ann: Rigidity in a sense of fear.

Patty: I was also thinking couples who have been together for a long time, people have trained their partner to treat them in a certain way and then at some point it’s kind of like unacceptable…they have changed, their circumstances have changed and then it’s really hard because they have got sort of frozen in this position and it’s you know they really want to take back control of certain things and they can’t.

Ann: Exactly. And then I think it’s easy to feel resentment that you gave it up in the first place. And I think sometimes tuning into whether you feel a sense of resentment in your body and any relationship that you are having whether it is with your mother or that is likely an indication you are giving something up. And it is either going to touch back in to what is it that you are giving up. You know the interesting thing about some research on power as well is that you know we don’t want to give it up because there is a lot of self stimulation in the feeling of power. And some research out of Berkley, UC Berkley makes the point that actually inducing in having a great deal power and a feeling of power brings out a reaction in your left frontal lobe that it really activates and stimulates almost brain damage the interesting thing is the frontal lobe damage it because of the production of dopamine and it actually induces this feeling that it’s similar to frontal or damage that somebody has very little impulse control, less care for another person and so in some ways if we are giving up our power, and not holding our own authority and giving it to somebody important to us, we actually kind of evoke something in them that’s not that healthy maybe not even want it because if you give up your power and other person starts to feel powerful and sometimes induces something in that person that actually is not loving inside them.

Sue: Totally got what you are saying. You know some people are really, again I don’t want to be too esoteric like...let’ just bring it down the real right? If I feel a vacuum of power, I almost cannot help it, it feels like Hover vacuum. I will suck it up and will take up that space and it’s not that I’m trying to control the situation, it’s just I don’t know it’s the caretaker in me or what have you, but I will take charge and you are right, it’s not that I’m trying to drive, it’s just that I see swerving on the road and I will do it…

Ann: You will absorb it…

Sue: I will absorb it and there is something another language for this is like an under- functioner or over-functioner. This is something that I thought a lot about and like I don’t want to over 6 function in a sense be in that control position but if I do that even a little bit and then somebody is little intimidated and I am like “Oh I can’t do it” like if I come behind you and redo the dishes out of the dishwasher like “here let me do a little better than you” which is just really means my way, not actually any better…

Ann: (laughs) Not actually any better…

Sue: Then you are going to be a little inhibited to do the dishes and so you might hang back and so I see you hanging back and so I’m going to do the dishes and be a little upset about it but I’m going to do it and then you are really going to hang back because I’m a little grumpy about it and then you see that now we got this little thing going and then you are hanging back drinking an umbrella drink while I’m doing the dishes and the kitchen and the floor and then you are really going to be scared of me because I’m like this whirlwind in the kitchen, right? And all I see is this under-functioning and all you see is tornado and it is very hard for me to see what I’m going to contribute to them their functioning and what my perception of what was going on is I need nothing and you are the needy person that isn’t doing anything and in a way I can even make you feel that too like I don’t need anything as my, as a matter of fact, you’d just get in the way if you get in the kitchen…

Patty: It’s sort of interesting because I almost see a flip of that though which is that we focus somuch on other people’s needs that we don’t recognize our own needs.. Sue: Oh that’s what I’m saying…

Patty: Right but you are saying is you are taking power, I’m seeing there is a side of that with some people that they are giving up their power…

Sue: Oh absolutely…like I’m not aware, I totally agree. It’s just another lens on it but I’m saying the exact thing, it’s a defense against me feeling my own needs.

Patty: Right.

Sue: And it’s aggressive. So caretaking, like that kind of over-functioning which, on one hand is controlling, which it is…. And I got excited about it because it is this idea of feeling a vacuum and how the under-functioner can create this sucking sound, they can involuntarily pull us into the space.

Patty: What I also love is, if you think about this in a relationship where somebody is overfunctioning and not paying attention to their own needs and the other person starts to not pay attention to that person’s needs either.

Ann: Right…

Patty: And not being very emphatic or compassionate which is what you were talking about with the impact on the prefrontal cortex…

Ann: Once it gets activated and there is this feeling of and it is in the feeling, when you feel power, you feel powerful, it’s inducing there is something very seductive…

Sue: It is brain damaging (laughs)

Ann: It is something very seductive…

Patty: You start to believe that your needs are the first and the most important and that everyone should be helping you fulfill them.

Sue: Well its tricky or you don’t have needs which is kind of what you are saying. In other words you don’t feel your needs to be helped, you don’t feel your need that you are tired….

Patty: Right but that person I don’t think is getting the dopamine rushed to the prefrontal cortex. I think it’s the other half of that couple.

Ann: Yes I would agree.

Sue: I’m talking about the over-functioner.

Sue: Right. Ann: The person with…and to think about it too, the person if you happen to find yourself in that role or that position where you feel like you keep kind of accommodating somebody else and often times we can see that, we are accommodating, we have to accommodate. If not, the person is going to get angry or frustrated or feel horrible like there is some negative consequence. So now I have to accommodate because I got to avoid that negative feeling coming at me. So I’m letting myself give up my sense of power and influence just to avoid that negative aspect. So we are giving up our power, it’s not just being taken and I think it’s really an important thing to remember that it feels like it is being taken because it makes so much sense. I got to avoid my partner being angry or being critical of me and so I think it would be nice to move in just for a moment about what do we do about that? What are we thinking about our partnership and you think about I feel I accommodate all the time and I feel like I have to accommodate otherwise I’m going to get this negative fearful thing coming towards me. Really want to encourage people to stop and really think about their own experience of accommodation instead of just you know like they are being bullied and that being what would be so bad if I experience criticism, how do I come to the table because you can be either under the table and be like “Oh I’m so scared my partner is about to criticize my dishwasher and I have to move away” or I can get on the table and start screaming at you and “You are so controlling and I can’t take it!” and either way we are responding in a way that is more about trying to get your power or give it rather than how to be influential to each other and how do you sit at the table and go. “Hey, when you do this…” and it can’t always be the fluff talk, I know we kind of get there the fluff talk but what I’m also saying as listeners also how do you get in touch with what you are giving up and what you are scared of…

Sue: I love your…I love the table right because under the table is either eggshells ,which is your devaluing your own power and making the other person bigger than they really are…

Ann: Or sometimes feeling victimized like the whole dynamic is like you are dominating me…

Sue: Right you are not a victim, right? Just tell the truth people…

Ann: (Crosstalk) Although, at times you might be. Let..that’s another dialogue..there might be a time where you are under the table because…

Sue: And another reminder, we are not just talking about partnership, we are taking about bosses, we are talking about mothers, we are talking about children, whoever but and going back to the debate makes me think of the challenge in that situation where there really was active aggressive intimidation techniques that were being used and the challenge was sitting at the table and not being on eggshells and not standing on top of the table. So even in situations like that I still think the challenge is to stay in the middle and sit at the table and negotiate and hold yourself steady…

Patty: Yeah I mean most of the people we are talking about are not you know particularly in romantic relationships aren’t bullies and so they are mad at you.

Sue: Right. Because we are not talking about actual domestic violence in trauma situations in this particular episode…we might get to that in another episode…

Patty: We are talking about subtler negotiation that goes on and so…

Sue: So, sit at the table!

Patty: Sit at the table and yeah maybe your partner gets mad at you…they have the right to their feelings the same way you do and then you talk. And the other thing is if you , a lot of what you see is sort of passive-aggressive you know somebody who doesn’t want to have sex this often or somebody who stops…

Sue: They are going to pay for one way or the other right? (laughs)

Patty: Right.

Ann: It’s interesting, some of the research on affairs around this is somebody is in relationship where they feel generally dominated, quite often and somebody exerts basically their voice through more power and not very relationality, the other person does kind of disappears. They kind of emotionally, physically become smaller because in that sense if you are complying out of fear rather than true value, you kind of shrink away and the person that is being able to get you to behave because of the fear of dominance you kind of know that you kind of know that you are not actually getting a love, trusted response, you are getting a fearful response and so they all listen when you control through domination and your partner saying oh I have no passion, I have no passion and you can justify leaving the relationship because there is no passion and you are not looking at your own capability in it…

Sue: Exactly so if we get back to the table for a second, we have talked about the person who is not in the kitchen needing to sit at the table and not leave that vacuum and kind of step up but also the person, the whirlwind who is over-functioning in the kitchen that is them standing on top of the table right? That is their part, is they have filled the vacuum and so then they end up being dominatrics, the control person so they can get them off the table and this example that I was using get myself off the table and hold the space of the vacuum and let the kitchen be messy or sit at the table and say you know what I need and my feelings about needing help in the kitchen and not eggshelling like oh is going to make this person feel really bad or you know the busy person’s version of eggshelling. So no eggshelling, no under the table, no above the table so now we have two people that are sitting at the table and if either one is not the best way to get the other person to the table is to sit at the table, right?

Sue: Right

Sue: Because if one person is on the top, the other person is going to go under and vice versa. So if you really want the other person to get off from under the table or from on top of the table, you sit on the table.

Patty: So much this goes back to things we have talked about in other podcast and it’s really about slowing down.

Sue: Slowing down and getting our frontal cortex back on line and having the pause and installing the pause button and connecting and recreating safety within ourselves and recreating in our close relationships.

Ann: Okay, so to sum up, so power inherently is not bad. Power is a wonderful thing and we need personal power , we need power in a relationship but if we are taking our power or giving it because we are taking it without influence or giving it without holding ourselves ,then that’s where power actually creates an inequity in a relationship, it ends up creating rigidity and lack of trust..

Sue: And brain damage..(laughs)

Ann: And brain damage…and power and influence in a relationship shared in an equal way where we are giving up decision making in one area and giving in the other but it’s through respect and we are changing our own thoughts because voluntary that evokes compassion that is now I’m wanting to give something to you because it is really important to you. And I can really feel that that evokes compassion and connection. And I think that’s the valuable thing to think about, the concept of being able to maintain your power and be influenced. So often we are scared of the influence and you know we have talked about lot of other podcast about why we might be afraid of influence and we can continue to talk about that at another time.

Patty: So, comeback and join us soon, subscribe to our email list and subscribe on iTunes and if you want to, rate our podcast. We would love to hear from you also if you want to send us suggestions on topics. Take care.

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