Technical Assitant-And…rolling.

H-Lets-uh so PADRES gets organized after a lot of trouble and you know, a lot of set-you know issues, ‘Do we become only a Hispanic organization, do we just take PADRES for’-

P-Remember PADRES was a Mexican American organization-

H-That’s right.

P-My concern was ‘OK, we’re getting priests from the outside, we’re getting priests from

Mexico’.

H-That’s right.

P-‘Let’s get them to become auxiliaries’. We didn’t know what was the coming of the Cuban priest of Florida.

H-Yeah.

P-You had an auxiliary bishop there who was Cuban.

H-Yeah.

P-Ok. You had another one in the New England area, uh, also who was Mexican American, but I wanted them to start being together. You’re coming from the outside, this is our reality. Uh, so be auxiliary bishop, be auxiliary members.

H-Uh huh. And-

P-That was my concern, to get the bishop from the outside coming into the United States of

America, especially Mexican priests- H-Uh huh.

P-who were being asked to come alot in Texas and in California.

H-Yeah. And so you get the-

P-That was one of my main issues.

H-Yeah.

P-But my main issue was I still believe in power, to be used properly-

H-And how-

P-by us having bishops.

H-And how so-

P-And ultimately not only just auxiliary bishops, I wanted us to be in charge of-being head of diocese.

H-Uh huh. So what was do you think the primary goal?

P-What’s that?

H-The naming of Latino or Mexican American bishops.

P-Yes. But remember I wanted power for the people politically.

H-Uh huh.

P-I wanted them to vote. I wanted to be city-in the city council, county council, I wanted congressmen, I wanted Henry B. Gonzalez to be congressman here. H-Uh huh.

P-I was at St. Alfonso when we went to fight for him.

H-Uh huh.

P-‘Hola, raza’ you know, lets put some Mexican Americans up there in congress.

H-And you think that was the same rationale for getting Mexican American bishops?

P-Not the same-

H-The access to power.

P-Not access to power but different kind of power.

H-Uh huh.

P-Uh huh. A different kind of power. Once political power where you don’t have to be concerned about separation of church and state-

H-Yeah.

P-You are in the state and you have congress-you have power in congress.

H-Yeah.

P-You have power in voting, that’s the state. Now this is the teachings of the Church, the social justice.

H-Uh huh. P-The voice of the people have to be heard, whatever country it is, that was my concern-that was my idea.

H-And PADRES was successful in getting a handful of bishops right?

P-Right. We had Flores primero, Sanchez, and then others-

H-Yeah.

P-started coming in. Gilbert, an auxiliary in California, we wanted a bishop, an archbishop so badly there in California.

H-Yeah.

P-But we never got it.

H-What do you-were you happy with the folks that were named?

P-Yes.

H-Did they all-

P-Yes, very much so but I knew that they needed support from their priests.

H-Uh huh.

P-So I said ‘You know’ and we talked about it privately, a little bit at a time.

H-Uh huh.

P-A little bit at a time.

H-Do you uh- P-Remember that the-we’re in a country where I would say we have the separation of church and state and if you don’t-what would happen if people really realize the social teachings of the

Church?

H-Yeah.

P-Power to the people.

H-Do you think that the individuals who became bishops used their position for in order to push the social justice issues?

P-Uh huh, they did it different ways.

H-Uh huh.

P-You don’t ask the same thing from a-if there was a Cuban bishop in Florida.

H-Uh huh.

P-That he would address it the same way we would.

H-Uh huh.

P-Because you have people in the United States who are not-who aren’t citizens of this country becoming bishops, archbishops.

H-Yeah. What about the other goal that PADRES was very involved in, the creation of MACC?

P-Well lets say that-we went-we had a meeting. Uh at that time we were having comunidades ecesiales de base coming from Latin America-

H-Yeah. P-to here. So when we created MACC there was this real concern by auxiliary bishop, by an auxiliary bishop in relation for more Mexican Americans to be coming to the seminary.

H-Uh huh.

P-We talked about, should we have a seminary? Remember the seminary Montezuma in New

Mexico?

H-Yeah.

P-It was in New Mexico or in Arizona?

H-I think it was New Mexico.

P-Ok, that was a seminary for Mexican priests.

H-Right, right.

P-In fact, remember I uh-should we, should we form a seminary or should we encourage the

Mexican American to go into the seminaries that weren’t ready for them?

H-Uh huh.

P-I knew what I went through. Were the seminaries ready to say that I was still hoping young adults would come in like I did at my age?

H-Uh huh.

P-I didn’t want them to go through these things, a minor seminary.

H-Yeah, right. P-You know? Uh I say ‘well’. Then we talk about how about a center where we will influence all of the United States if they want to learn about the Mexican American-

H-Uh huh.

P-the Mexicano? Because most of your-at that time in this area, in this area-and you begin to see a lot of immigrants going to different places.

H-Uh huh.

P-And I knew about that because of the national involvement that I was in.

H-Yeah.

P-National Conference of uh-forty years now, National Conference of Catholic Priests, and the board of National Conference of Catholic Charities, etc, etc. More immigrants were coming in-

H-Uh, huh.

P-and not only from Mexico but from Central America and Latin and South America.

H-Uh huh.

P-Because of the wars they were having. We were having more immigrants coming and so I said

‘Well, how about a center so we can maybe influence all the Church in the United States of

America?’

H-Uh huh. Who else was in the planning stage at this point? Who were some of the pushers besides yourself?

P-Um- H-For that center

P-Umberto Benavidez-

H-Uh huh.

P-Virgilio.

H-Yeah.

P-David Garcia. We wanted it to be influential by the priests in San Antonio.

H-Uh, huh.

P-Ok? If I remember right those were the priests. They were young, David and Virgilio were young. They were pushers in San Antonio.

H-Uh huh.

P-We wanted the support of Archbishop Flores who was auxiliary here.

H-Uh huh.

P-And we wanted him to take a national stand on it because in 1970, May the fifth, he became a bishop.

H-A great day.

P-A great day.

H-Yeah.

P-That was not done by mistake you know? H-Yeah.

P-Haha, and so-

H-A little push and power there, haha, by PADRES, haha.

P-Very much so. And so uh we wanted to influence not-we wanted not a seminary just for us.

H-Uh huh.

P-That’s not good, just for ethnic groups, in the United States of America, no.

H-Uh huh.

P-How about getting our brothers, whether they’re African Americans or Asians or indigenous people go to the same seminary.

H-Uh huh.

P-We’re the people of God, we’re children of God, why should there be separation-

H-Uh huh.

P-or distinction of seminary just for certain ethnic groups?

H-One of the things that-one of the reasons people often give about PADRES sort of falling apart, the organization was that you got MACC created, you got a number of bishops named and so on, so-

P-We had La Raza Unida-

H-La Raza Unida- P-Uh huh. We had more people in congress.

H-That’s right.

P-So what do you need more when people take over instead of a priest? What do you need-what do you need PADRES for?

H-Yeah.

P-Now you have NASH right now, another organization of Hispanic priests.

H-Do you belong to that?

P-No-yes, I’m a member but I’ve never gone to any of their conferences, but I’m a paying member of it.

H-A member of it.

P-Every time they have their conference I can’t go.

H-Uh huh.

P-They had it Port Isabel, that’s so close to me but I couldn’t go.

H-Yeah.

P-And I wanted to go so badly.

H-Yeah. Who, uh, Father Alberto Benavidez died in an unfortunate accident in uh-

P-In Port Isabel.

H-In Port Isabel. P-Or Padre Island or something like that.

H-Yeah, and he was very much involved in-

P-COPS.

H-In COPS. Who-

P-Community Organization for Public Service.

H-Yeah, uh who besides Father Edmundo Rodriguez got involved in that, succeeding

Benavidez?

P-No, they were with Benavidez.

H-Uh huh.

P-They didn’t succeed Benavidez they-

H-They were with Benavidez already? Who else was involved with that besides-

P-With COPS?

H-Yeah.

P-Practically the ones that I mentioned.

H-Who were those? Lets see again.

P-If I remember Virgilio Elizondo-

H-Ok.

P-And Alberto, and, uh, very much Flores- H-That was uh MACC, rather-

P-No I’m talking about COPS.

H-Yeah right.

P-They were involved with COPS-

H-They were involved with COPS as well? Ok.

P-And we were going to-we were not-this man from Chicago, the one who was the founder of

Community Organization-

H-Right.

P-And I think when Obama talks about community organization in the area he lived in was the same fellow who gave the idea-

H-Alinsky

P-of community-what’s his name?

H-Alinsky.

P-Alinsky.

H-Sol Alinksy.

P-Solomon Alinsky. We were going to go to Quito, Ecuador for community organization. This man who you just mentioned uh talked about community organization and we wanted again power for the people. H-Yeah. Um-

P-Remember that-

H-You mentioned-

P-you had the boarder organization through the Valley-

H-Uh huh.

P-and Eagle Pass, Del Rio and all that.

H-So what did you do after you finished those two terms as chair or president of PADRES?

P-The provincial asked me to get to work in a parish, haha.

H-Laughs Where did you go after that?

P-Uh-

H-What parish was that?

P-I was sent to be a pastor at Our Lady of Refuge in Eagle Pass.

H-In Eagle Pass, uh, huh. And that’s where you’ve been since then or you worked elsewhere?

P-No, no, no, no, no I stayed there only six months.

H-Uh huh.

P-The pastor didn’t want to leave and I asked him why. He had a good reason for not leaving.

H-What was that, do you want to tell? P-Well, he was accused of something that was not true.

H-I see. And did you-

P-He did not burn a church to get a new church.

H-Oh and so he didn’t want to look like he was just moving on.

P-Running away from the situation.

H-Yeah. So you-it was a one priest parish and you were going to replace the pastor is that-

P-Yes, I was replacing-I was gonna be a pastor-

H-Yeah.

P-there and you had two missions, St. Joseph’s and Sacred Heart-

H-Yeah.

P-in Eagle Pass. And so-

H-So you were there for six months-

P-But he had to go and get renewed.

H-Uh huh.

P-At a program in Notre Dame, he went for renewal.

H-Uh huh.

P-He came back a different man. H-Oh.

P-And so my provincial asked me, Father….. ‘What do you want to do?’ I says ‘Well, let him stay, he’s got a very good reason for wanting to stay’.

H-Uh huh.

P-‘I wouldn’t want to leave a place people thinking that I did burn a church’.

H-Haha, yeah right, haha. So where did you go after that?

P-They sent me to Father Velasco, uh, in Del Rio.

H-Uh huh.

P-And he also went to Notre Dame and came back a different man. When I was in Del Rio they said ‘Well, we want you to pastor in Our Lady of Guadalupe in Laredo, but you cannot go until the pastor dies’ haha. I said ‘What?’ He says ‘You have to wait until he dies’. I said ‘When is he going to die?’ Haha.

H-Oh.

P-It was Father Martinez.

H-Uh huh.

P-And uh, so I went to Our Lady of Guadalupe in Laredo.

H-Uh huh. How long were you there?

P-About seventeen months. H-Uh huh. What did your work at Guadalupe in Laredo involve?

P-I was pastor.

H-Uh huh.

P-Oh what did I work? I brought in very much students from University of Texas-

H-Uh huh.

P-to come and make themselves known in the experience in the parish.

H-Uh huh.

P-Encouraging the young people that was in the barrio, Our Lady of Guadalupe was a very poor barrio.

H-Uh huh.

P-I didn’t see many of our parishioners going to college.

H-Uh huh.

P-But I wanted people from different colleges to come in and, uh, University of Texas Austin were the students who responded but they had to pay their own way.

H-Uh huh.

P-I didn’t want the parish to pay anybody who-I didn’t want the money to be taken out of the parish-

H-Yeah. P-for those students to come and talk about get more education, get more education.

H-Yeah.

P-So they came. Then I was dismissed after about seventeen or nineteen months. Then the five provinces of the Oblates-

H-Dismissed in the sense of relieved or in the sense of-

P-Relieved.

H-taken away?

P-Relieved. Relieved because the five provinces of the United States-missionary provinces of

Oblates of-

H-Right.

P-asked me to go all around the provinces to advise the provincials on how to better minority ministries.

H-Ah.

P-For three years.

H-Oh, wow, some kind of Hispanic ministry agency for the Oblates?

P-Hispanic, African Americans-

H-Uh, huh.

P-indigenous people, women as minorities. H-Uh, huh.

P-That’s how come we encouraged-we talked about Hermanas?

H-Yeah.

P-I wanted women to join us

H-Yeah.

P-Huh?

H-How did you-did you-how did you-did you see yourself succeeding in that?

P-Yes, very much so.

H-Uh huh.

P-To see-to see the brother priest accepting, some of them, and saying ‘How can we better this ministry?’

H-Uh huh.

P-‘We have experience’, but with the experience of social justice again.

H-Where did you get the best reception for all of this, in what province? Whose idea was this to create a Hispanic, or minority agency for the-

P-the five provinces.

H-Yeah.

P-You had a board of the provincials. H-Uh huh.

P-And they were seeing, you know, that we had a lot of minorities coming in.

H-Uh huh.

P-More African Americans becoming Catholic.

H-Uh huh.

P-Uh we began to have parishes in the New England area and in the western provinces-no that’s not-the eastern provinces having African American migrations.

H-Uh huh.

P-And Native Americans-

H-Uh huh.

P-having in parishes and in California a lot of-

H-Yeah.

P-Mexicanos, a lot of them and in Florida Cubans and I was very much involved with the first wave and second wave of Cubans. The first wave in the Valley when I was director there and nationwide-

H-Uh huh.

P-because I was in the board of the National Conference of Catholic Charities.

H-Uh huh. P-And when the Cubans would come by legally, they were very well accepted. But the ones who came illegally through Mexico-

H-Yeah.

P-who helped them out? I did-

H-Wow.

P-as director of Catholic Charities of the diocese of Brownsville.

H-Uh huh.

P-But I knew that they wanted to go and join their brothers in Florida.

H-Yeah.

P-That was the first wave. The second wave was very different. The second wave was not the people who left because of the government. The second wave were people who were poor and they wanted to get away from Cuba.

H-Yeah.

P-They weren’t accepted too well all over USA.

H-Uh huh.

P-I had experience with them.

H-Yeah.

P-So- H-Where did you, uh-where did you find the-where did you find the best reception for your efforts in the five provinces? Where did you find the most resistance?

P-I don’t call it resistance, not needing to attend to it, in our province here, in the southern province.

H-Uh huh.

P-Because they were involved in it.

H-I see.

P-They didn’t need more-the only advice they needed, I already had given it in accusation.

H-Yeah, right.

P-See. And the-where they needed it the most was: be open to immigrants.

H-Uh huh.

P-I knew about the Bracero Program, I knew about the undocumented in Houston.

H-Uh huh.

P-When the first amnesty came along, we opened up the parish in Immaculate Heart of Mary in

Houston. More than fifty percent-there were people at Immaculate Conception-Immaculate Heart of Mary in Houston were immigrants from Mexico.

H-Wow.

P-They weren’t registered with the national parish when they came to our parish. H-Wow. Did you get a number of them under the amnesty?

P-Oh, very many.

H-Uh huh.

P-They became our parishioners.

H-Yeah.

P-After they became citizens I wanted them as parishioners, haha.

H-Haha, yeah right.

P-And they stayed so.

H-Uh huh.

P-But then you had something that, uh, I’d say, we didn’t handle it right in the United States, especially where you have outside priests, and they come from Mexico, from Chile, from Cuba wherever.

H-Yeah.

P-Uh Kenya. They didn’t identify with our culture of the young people.

H-Yeah.

P-We have priests in the United States, they weren’t ready for our culture, the culture that we have in church.

H-Uh huh. P-It’s like for instance giving communion in the hand.

H-Right.

P-Simple things like that.

H-So yeah, right.

P-And allowing women to be communion ministers.

H-Yeah.

P-And girls to be in the altar service.

H-Yeah.

P-They were not used to that, you know?

H-It’s small stuff but it’s a big crisis for these immigrants-for these priests.

P-For our priests huh?

H-Yeah.

P-And when you go to-when you go to California, they had a wonderful priest there who got the young adults, African Americans, Hispanics, uh, Anglo Saxons together, to be together.

H-Uh huh.

P-That was beautiful, you know? They’re trying to be a, no matter what ethnic group or what race you are, we’re brothers.

H-Yeah. P-We got the best reception there in California.

H-Yeah California’s uh, it’s an incredible immigrant scene, you know.

P-Uh huh. And when I’d go to the meetings for the Indigenous people there in the central province-was it central or western? Central, and they would invite me, the Indigenous people, I was invited to go to their big conferences of the parishes we had, the African Americans and likewise, I was invited. I saw a beautiful change there.

H-Uh huh.

P-But still we need more being together as Catholics.

H-So after three years in this minorities facilitator kind of position-

P-Uh huh.

H-for the Oblates, what was your next assignment?

P-Where was my next assignment, pastor.

H-Where was this?

P-No, I was not a pastor. They asked me to go to Houston, at Immaculate Heart of Mary-

H-Uh huh.

P-and, uh, to go and work in that parish. The two priests who were there invited me to go there.

H-Uh huh. P-But I said ‘Well, if I come there it’s gonna be a team ministry. The parish, the Oblate parish, I don’t want it to be a pastor’. I says ‘Um, three of us get assigned to the parish as a team ministry, no pastor’-

H-Uh huh.

P-‘but someone is responsible for the administration, someone is responsible for religious education, and someone is responsible for public issues in relation to very much’-like I said by now you know my character and temperament is an extrovert.

H-I couldn’t have guessed.

Both Laugh

P-I’m an extrovert and very judgmental.

H-Uh huh.

P-I don’t let things wait till tomorrow.

H-Yeah.

P-Let’s do it right now.

H-And so did they agree to this team-

P-Yes

H-pastoral team?

P-Uh, huh. H-Who were the other-who were your colleagues there, who were your fellow priests?

P-Two Oblates.

H-Who were they, do you want to-

P-No.

H-Ok.

H-Oh yeah.

P-And we didn’t know it.

H-Yeah.

P-And uh he’s already died.

H-Yeah those are sad things within the church.

P-And um when-I couldn’t leave the parish until the trial was over. I couldn’t leave the parish.

And I went to a psychologist because I couldn’t embrace anyone anymore.

H-Yeah.

P-Uh, I’m a-I’m not afraid of carrying children.

H-Yeah.

P-I’m not afraid of embracing women, that was not me, you know? And so when they tell you you can’t do that, you can never be a-in your car you can never be alone with a young adult or a teenager- H-Yeah.

P-and you cannot have a child in your office and put him on your lap.

H-Yeah.

P-And at noontime, I was at Immaculate Heart of Mary, we had a Catholic school, I used to go out and play with the kids basketball-

H-Yeah.

P-or whatever they have, and jump rope with the girls. And we had fun and they’d come and embrace me, I never thought anything of it. But when you start thinking about carrying a child and you feel his little buttocks-

H-Yeah.

P-that’s not good for you. So I went to a psychologist and when the priest who remained there he said ‘Roberto’ he says ‘I want to be pastor again’. I said ‘Well, if you want to be pastor again I want to leave’.

H-Uh huh.

P-And my psychologist said ‘Move along’.

H-Uh huh.

P-‘You’ve had enough’.

H-So where’d you go from there?

P-To Del Rio. H-Uh huh.

P-And I was there eleven years.

H-Uh huh.

P-And from Del Rio I was-became a RAM, reduced active ministry, no administration-

H-Uh huh.

P-into Houston. From Houston to Eagle Pass.

H-Where in Houston did you go?

P-Uh, Blessed Sacrament Parish.

H-Uh huh.

P-Which was not at my time, when I was at Our Lady of Guadalupe of Mary, it was not for the

Hispanics.

H-Uh huh.

P-You could not speak Spanish there.

H-Were you comfortable?

P-Yes because uh I went with a priest from the United States, Father Garcia, Isidore Garcia.

H-Uh huh.

P-And we could-we celebrated-we had mass in English and Spanish.

H-Uh huh. P-And I was very happy there.

H-Oh good, good.

P-I could see a lot of things happening that I dreamed of.

H-Oh good. Like what?

P-Mixture of ethnic groups.

H-Yeah.

P-Racial groups.

H-Yeah.

P-And a lot of young people going to college and university.

H-Uh, huh.

P-And, uh, the city council making a difference.

H-Uh, huh.

P-Hispanics and all of that.

H-Yeah.

P-I could see the fruits of our labor.

H-Oh well that’s great.

P-So now I’m in Eagle Pass, and no administration, just celebrating the sacraments. H-Well good.

P-Uh, mass on Sunday, two of them, three or four during the week, counseling, confessions, visiting-celebrating mass in the missions and all of that.

H-Oh good.

P-And preaching in a way that I don’t have to be scared of anyone, haha.

H-Oh I’m sure that was the case all along, haha.

P-It’s the Holy Spirit guiding me.

H-Oh, good.

P-So-

H-Well, thank you so much for the interview.

P-Uh huh.

H-Would you know, do you think of anything else you’d like to tell us before uh-

P-Uh huh.

H-It seemed to be getting towards the end but-

P-You know, I say that-I say for any young person viewing this, God has a plan for you and you don’t know what that plan is.

H-Uh huh. P-You know ,coming from a big family and going to grammar school and high school where you feel segregation or discrimination, going to college and having to work so hard for it-

H-Uh huh.

P-although the government paid after World War II, and uh me very interested in international law-

H-Uh huh.

P-international relations and, uh, when I had to take the vow of celibacy I didn’t want it because

I wanted to get married and have children like mom and dad.

H-Uh huh.

P-Who would find a women now days wanting, haha, twelve children, haha?

H-Yeah right, haha.

P-Not even at that time, you know. If they accept two I think that’s a lot.

H-Yeah.

P-In the environment we live in, um. What I have to say is I wish that would say ‘Things don’t happen just accidently or because you want them’. God has a plan for you-

H-Uh huh.

P-to make it a better world for his people to live in and for us to be truly brothers and sisters whether we’re Christians or Muslims, whatever we are.

H-Uh huh. P-He’d still want us to love each other because the greatest commandment we have is he said to love him above all things and to love your neighbor as yourself and that’s not easy to do.

H-Would you do it all over again?

P-Yes, but in a different way.

H-Uh huh.

P-I don’t think I would take a lunch to the pulpit, haha.

H-Laughs

P-Hurt feelings you know-

H-Yeah.

P-where people are not to blame.

H-Yeah.

P-You know? But we’re human-

H-Yeah.

P-and-

H-Well that’s the least of it.

P-some are going to make more mistakes.

H-Yeah that’s the least of things you could’ve done wrong haha.

P-But other things I could have done wrong- H-Uh huh.

P-you have to be careful.

H-Yeah.

P-Mother said, she gave me advice, these girls in college or high school, I would bring them home. They’d say ‘Lets go, I want to go to your house’ so we went to my house and met my mother. This was a humble home and all these girls all of them had cars and they were beautiful-

H-Uh huh.

P-and I liked them. So mother would say ‘Which one?’ ‘Which one what mother?’ ‘Which one are you gonna marry?’ I said ‘Mother, I’m still in high school’. Haha, ‘I’m still in college’. She said ‘well don’t get too close to the fire because you might get burnt’.

H-Oh yeah haha.

P-In Spanish it’s different, ‘No te acerques a la lumber porque te quemas.’

H-Yeah.

P-If you know what I mean.

H-Yeah.

P-We’ve always remained human-

H-Yeah.

P-no matter who you are, single or married- H-Yeah.

P-priest or wife or teenagers or college students. Be careful.

H-Yeah.

P-You’re human, and as human beings we have to depend a lot on human-on God-

H-Uh huh.

P-so that we can be who He is-who He chooses to be who we are to make this world a better world to live in Amen.

H-Thank you so much, Father.

P-You’re welcome.