Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:27:37 GMT From: Al
Are there any free UML tools out there?
Al
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Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:36:29 +0200 From: Morten K. Hansen
Al wrote:
> Are there any free UML tools out there? > > Al > > >
Hi Al
Try: http://www.objectsbydesign.com/tools/umltools_byPrice.html
Or if you use JBuilder get the 'JRefactory' OpenTool.
Regards
Morten
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:35:49 +0200 From: Robert Chevallier
> Al wrote: > > > Are there any free UML tools out there? > >
Have a look on argo argouml.tigris.org (open source) or http://www.gentleware.com/ (derived from it) Also there is a free but limited edition of Together/J cf www.togethercommunity.com (Class diagram only) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 10:09:19 GMT From: Israel Raj T
Want to try JDE ? Wait no more !
JDE is installed automatically if you install any of the recent Xemacs distributions ( and answer 'yes' at the appropriate prompt / dialog box setting)
It is loaded automagicaly when you use xemacs to open any .java file. You can configure it from the menu JDE -> Projects-> General The latest JDE is available at http://jde.sunsite.dk/.
It is lightweight compared to JBuilder / Forte and their ilk.
If Emacs is your spiritual practice of choice, then check out JDE.
(M-x all-praise-emacs(TheFather)-Xemacs(TheSon)-and-JDE(TheWholyGhost))
[ Part 3: "Included Message" ]
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 12:55:37 +0200 From: Artur Biesiadowski
Israel Raj T wrote:
> It is lightweight compared to JBuilder / Forte and their ilk.
With two page java file opened it is about 11M versus 37M for jbuilder. With larger projects difference should be smaller (as most of memory for jbuilder is jvm overhead). Anyway, both numbers are not big when you look at today development machines.
And emace/JDE has no type-aware member completion nor argument type hints, which for me put it into 'yet-another-editor-with-hilite-and-compile' category.
It would be enough to post it to softwaretools newsgroup.
Artur
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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 11:19:22 GMT From: Israel Raj T
On Sun, 07 Oct 2001 12:55:37 +0200, Artur Biesiadowski
I am not quite sure that I understand. Is this what you mean ?
From the documentation: "jde-complete-at-point This command is bound to C-c-C-v-.. It finds all the fields and methods that complete the name at point. It then inserts the first potential completion in the buffer at point. Repeatedly typing C-c-C-v-. causes the JDE to cycle through the other potential completions. If the completion is a method name, the command completes the method name and displays the method signature in the minibuffer."
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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 14:13:16 +0200 From: Artur Biesiadowski
Israel Raj T wrote:
> I am not quite sure that I understand. > Is this what you mean ? > > From the documentation: > "jde-complete-at-point > This command is bound to C-c-C-v-.. > It finds all the fields and methods that complete the name at point. > It then inserts the first potential > completion in the buffer at point. Repeatedly typing C-c-C-v-. causes > the JDE to cycle through the other potential completions. If the > completion is a method name, the command completes the method name and > displays the method signature in the minibuffer."
Kind of. But if I type
String str = "aaa"; str.s and press C-c-C-v it completes to str.startsWith( and pressing combination again will not lead me to str.substring(, which I meant. I would expect some kind of visual dialog with possible completions, not blindly jumping to first alphabetically matching and not allowing to change it later.
But this is just a pitty implementation, functionality is there - so I withdraw my claim about not having type aware completion. Still missing parameter hints (seems to hint only about first of possible overloaded methods).
Artur [ Part 6: "Included Message" ]
Date: 09 Oct 2001 11:55:45 -0400 From: Paul Kinnucan
Artur Biesiadowski
> Israel Raj T wrote: > > > > I am not quite sure that I understand. > > Is this what you mean ? > > From the documentation: > > "jde-complete-at-point > > This command is bound to C-c-C-v-.. It finds all the fields and > > methods that complete the name at point. > > It then inserts the first potential > > completion in the buffer at point. Repeatedly typing > > C-c-C-v-. causes the JDE to cycle through the other potential > > completions. If the > > completion is a method name, the command completes the method name and > > displays the method signature in the minibuffer." > > Kind of. But if I type > > String str = "aaa"; > str.s > > and press C-c-C-v it completes to > str.startsWith( > and pressing combination again will not lead me to str.substring(, > which I meant. I would expect some kind of visual dialog with possible > completions, not blindly jumping to first alphabetically matching and > not allowing to change it later. > But this is just a pitty implementation, functionality is there - so I > withdraw my claim about not having type aware completion. Still > missing parameter hints (seems to hint only about first of possible > overloaded methods).
First, please be aware that the release of the JDE that is shipped with XEmacs is very out-of-date. The completion functionality included with the latest production version of the JDE, JDE-2.2.8, provides two modes of completion, one mode (C-c C-v C-.) pops up a menu with all the possible completions; the other mode (C-c C-v .) inserts the first possible completion at the cursor. You can then cycle through the remaining completions by repeating the completion combo. Note that the default keystroke combo is selected to avoid conflicts with preexisting Emacs packages. You can easily rebind the completion commands to function keys or any other keys you please. When the JDE inserts a method completion, it displays the signature of the method, including return type and exceptions thrown, momentarily (user-defined) at the bottom of the screen. Completion works for any classes defined in the current classpath, including inner classes. In addition to completion, the JDE includes many other code generation features, including user-customizable automatic generation of import statements, javadoc comments, class skeletons, interface implementations, method overrides, etc. For more information, see http://jde.sunsite.dk
Finally, please note that it is generally unwise to make claims in newsgroups about what a software product CANNOT do, especially if one is not a regular user of that package. You often end up having to eat your words.
- Paul (JDE's author)
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:06:30 GMT From: Israel Raj T
On 09 Oct 2001 11:55:45 -0400, Paul Kinnucan
>http://jde.sunsite.dk >- Paul >(JDE's author)
JDE is the One True Java Way :-)
JDE seems so feature rich that I am still learning some of its nicer features.
BTW, why dont you email the xemacs team and ask them to distribute a more recent version of JDE as the default. ( I have just emailed then myself)
[ Part 8: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:22:10 GMT From: Israel Raj T
Dear Steve and Mike, many thanks for the excellent job that you and the xemacs team have been doing. I particularly find JDE ( a most excellent Java mode ) useful. However, the version of JDE that is distributed with the Solid Vapour release is fairly old and does not reflect JDE's current abilities.
I managed to install the latest version of JDE myself but I understand that many others find the instructions a trifle intimidating. I wonder if it would be possible to distribute the latest version of JDE as standard with the next release of the One True Editor :-) [ Part 9: "Included Message" ]
Date: 10 Oct 2001 12:42:40 -0400 From: Paul Kinnucan
Israel Raj T
The XEmacs maintainers require that all packages distributed with XEmacs be first checked into the XEmacs CVS repository via a secure shell connection. Because of its size, checking in the JDE is an extremely time-consuming task that takes many hours and requires an intimate knowledge of the XEmacs makefiles. Hence, the XEmacs maintainers are reluctant to do the check in themselves. I tried once to do the checkin myself and ended up spending several evenings mastering the art of updating a CVS repository via a secure shell connection from Windows followed by four more evenings of actually submitting the JDE changes, without in the end getting the JDE to build successfully, using the XEmacs make files. I don't have that kind of time to spend. I have asked the XEmacs maintainers to waive the CVS residency requirement in the JDE's case to no avail. So now the JDE portion of the XEmacs distribution gets updated only when an XEmacs maintainer has some extra time, which is once in a blue moon. - Paul
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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 15:01:46 -0700 From: Aryo Ronggolawe
[ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ] [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ] [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
On Sun, 07 Oct 2001 03:09:19 -0700, Israel Raj T wrote:
> Want to try JDE ? > Wait no more ! > > JDE is installed automatically if you install any of the recent Xemacs > distributions ( and answer 'yes' at the appropriate prompt / dialog box > setting) > > It is loaded automagicaly when you use xemacs to open any .java file. > You can configure it from the menu JDE -> Projects-> General The latest > JDE is available at http://jde.sunsite.dk/. > > It is lightweight compared to JBuilder / Forte and their ilk. > > If Emacs is your spiritual practice of choice, then check out JDE. > (M-x > all-praise-emacs(TheFather)-Xemacs(TheSon)-and-JDE(TheWholyGhost))
Can you provide some tutorial links to guide those people who use JBuilder, Forte, IBM VA and others so they can learn more quickly.
[ Part 11: "Included Message" ]
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 22:28:30 GMT From: Israel Raj T
On Sun, 07 Oct 2001 15:01:46 -0700, "Aryo Ronggolawe"
>Can you provide some tutorial links to guide those people who use >JBuilder, Forte, IBM VA and others so they can learn more quickly.
No. Absolutely not. Emacs good Xemacs better Xemacs + JDE perfect ... (M-x all-praise-emacsTheFather-XemacsTheSon-and-JDETheHolyGoat)
The devil will get you if you do not use the One True Editor.
Seriously though try: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/ http://computer-logic.net:8001/ ( jb stuff) http://java.certifiedprogrammer.com/ http://www.javasuccess.com/patterns/index.html http://www.jchq.net/tutorial/introj2.shtml
If you really have the time to learn JB, Forte and VA.... "You are a better man than me, Gunga Din"
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Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 00:32:31 GMT From: Brian P Templeton
No.
(bestp Emacs-21) ==> t ;; (That's (best? Emacs-21) for Schemers.)
(+ Emacs-21 Gnus Semantic EDE MMM-Mode EIEIO COGRE JDE everything-else) ==> 'perfect
-- BPT
[ Part 13: "Included Message" ] Date: 10 Oct 2001 15:18:45 GMT From: [email protected] Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.gui, comp.lang.java.programmer, comp.lang.java.softwaretools, comp.lang.java.advocacy, comp.lang.java.beans, comp.lang.java Subject: Re: JDE : a rather fine Java development tool.
According to Israel Raj T
:It is lightweight compared to JBuilder / Forte and their ilk.
Xemacs + JDE is lighter weight than JBuilder or Forte? Wow - I've not used either, and had always wondered what direction to go. It is rather amazing to me that there could be any application heavier than Emacs... -- -- "I know of vanishingly few people ... who choose to use ksh." "I'm a minority!"
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Date: 10 Oct 2001 16:49:34 +0100 From: Phillip Lord
lvirden> Xemacs + JDE is lighter weight than JBuilder or Forte? Wow lvirden> - I've not used either, and had always wondered what lvirden> direction to go. It is rather amazing to me that there lvirden> could be any application heavier than Emacs...
This of course was a valid criticism 10 years ago, when comparing emacs to vi. Of course nowadays hard drives have got bigger and memory cheaper. And emacs has turns up as a standard part of many operating systems installs. The practical upshot of this is that my development environment (the JDE) fits in a 3M of disk space, or about three floppies. Or looked at in another way the entire application (JDE and emacs) fits in under 20M (including all the source of course). So yeah I'd say its pretty lightweight. Phil
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:20:56 -0700 From: Jon A. Cruz
> Xemacs + JDE is lighter weight than JBuilder or Forte? Wow - I've not > used either, and had always wondered what direction to go. It is rather > amazing to me that there could be any application heavier than Emacs...
Well, emacs is heavier than say vi or edlin, but you really have to look at some of the modern tools to compare with.
With Forte, a common recommendtation is to have a system with at least 128MB RAM. Emacs +JDE, on the other hand, was just using 11MB of RAM on my system after running for a few days working on a small project (about 15 source files doing 3D conversions, editing some 19MB data files, etc..).
Oh, sorry. I was wrong.
For Forte, the current recommended system RAM is 256 MB (128MB is the _minimum_ recommended).
Wow. And it looks like JBuilder is about the same.
And I remember working with Emacs +JDE on a p120 with 64MB RAM and running with quite good performance. I was even more productive than on the dual 300 Windows box running J++ at work (but yes, that was the version of dev studio that would only use one processor).
-- Jon A. Cruz http://www.geocities.com/joncruz/action.html Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:43:17 GMT From: Louis Zimmerman
Hi, all!
Was wondering if anyone had suggestions for Java formatting tools: something similar to 'indent' would be nice.
Louis
-- Louis Zimmerman: Photographer, knife maker, treasure hunter Software developer at large http://www.pobox.com/~louiszimmerman Powered by Linux!!
[ Part 3: "Included Message" ]
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 22:38:44 +0200 From: Genady
There is JIndent ....
Louis Zimmerman wrote: > Hi, all! > > Was wondering if anyone had suggestions for Java formatting > tools: something similar to 'indent' would be nice. > > Louis > > -- > Louis Zimmerman: Photographer, knife maker, treasure hunter > Software developer at large > http://www.pobox.com/~louiszimmerman > Powered by Linux!! > > > >
[ Part 4: "Included Message" ]
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:27:18 -0700 From: Jon A. Cruz
Louis Zimmerman wrote:
> Hi, all! > > Was wondering if anyone had suggestions for Java formatting > tools: something similar to 'indent' would be nice.
You can do it with Emacs
-- Jon A. Cruz http://www.geocities.com/joncruz/action.html
[ Part 5: "Included Message" ]
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:39:54 -0400 From: Fang Feng
Visual SlickEdit does an excellent job.
"Louis Zimmerman"
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Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 22:10:12 +0200 From: Silvano Maffeis
Silvano
Fang Feng wrote:
> Visual SlickEdit does an excellent job. > > "Louis Zimmerman"
> > Louis > > > > -- > > Louis Zimmerman: Photographer, knife maker, treasure hunter > > Software developer at large > > http://www.pobox.com/~louiszimmerman > > Powered by Linux!! > > > > > >
-- Dr. Silvano Maffeis, CTO, Softwired. Download the "Wireless JMS" whitepaper: http://www.softwired-inc.com/people/maffeis/articles/softwired/wjms_intro.pdf
[ Part 7: "Included Message" ]
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 16:24:58 +0200 From: Werner Purrer
On 997GUE, Louis Zimmerman
> >Was wondering if anyone had suggestions for Java formatting >tools: something similar to 'indent' would be nice. jedit has an excellent one as downloadable plugin. The one from Netbeans is also pretty nice but only does a basic job. Werner
-- Memory Dragon Five years of coding java and still sane.
[ Part 8: "Included Message" ]
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:02:16 +0200 From: Paul Jansen
The free configurable code beautifier Jacobe might serve your needs as well. Have a look at http://www.tiobe.com/jacobe.htm
"Werner Purrer"
[ Part 9: "Included Message" ]
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 01:32:03 GMT From: Louis Zimmerman
Thanks for all the info, folks! Much appreciated... 8-)
Louis
Louis Zimmerman wrote in message <[email protected]>... >Hi, all! > >Was wondering if anyone had suggestions for Java formatting >tools: something similar to 'indent' would be nice. > >Louis > >-- >Louis Zimmerman: Photographer, knife maker, treasure hunter >Software developer at large >http://www.pobox.com/~louiszimmerman >Powered by Linux!! > > > Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:13:14 +0100 From: James Fielding
Hello.
Could somebody please provide help with the following question? I'm new to Java.
Write a program that produces a grid showing the result of throwing two dice. The calculations should be done and placed in a two dimensional array before printing the entire set of results, e.g. a two and a three would give five, and be placed in element [1][2] of the array. Also, calculate probabilities of throwing each number from above.
Many thanks.
[ Part 3: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:37:23 +0100 From: Jon Skeet
James Fielding
Sure, I'm happy to provide help: how far have you got, and which bit are you stuck on?
-- Jon Skeet -
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:08:19 +0100 From: James Platt
Hi Jon.
I havent got very far I must admit. I have just started learning Java for a fortnight and I can't understand arrays! I'm sure if I understand this, then everything else will begin to fit into place and make more sense. I'm writing this message using my friend's newsgroup account, but I would be grateful if you could reply by email: [email protected].
[ Part 5: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:20:25 +0100 From: Jon Skeet
[Posted and mailed]
James Platt
> I havent got very far I must admit. I have just started learning Java for a > fortnight and I can't understand arrays! I'm sure if I understand this, > then everything else will begin to fit into place and make more sense.
Right - so, where have you got with arrays, and what are you having trouble with? There are a couple of gotchas, but they're not too hard once you've got those ironed out.
> I'm writing this message using my friend's newsgroup account, but I would be > grateful if you could reply by email: [email protected].
If you don't have access to a news-server (and I would expect btinternet to provide access, to be honest), you can read and post from Google. It's generally best to keep discussions on Usenet while they can be of help to other people. -- Jon Skeet -
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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:33:08 GMT From: [email protected] Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.help, comp.lang.java.beans, comp.lang.java.softwaretools Subject: Re: Help with Java question
On Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:08:19 +0100, "James Platt"
>Hi Jon. > >I havent got very far I must admit. I have just started learning Java for a >fortnight and I can't understand arrays! I'm sure if I understand this, >then everything else will begin to fit into place and make more sense. > >I'm writing this message using my friend's newsgroup account, but I would be >grateful if you could reply by email: [email protected]. >
There is a very good treatment of arrays in "Thinking in Java". You can downlaod a copy for free at http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/. You should buy it!
P. Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 10:34:24 -0700 From: Wayne Kidd
It seems so odd to me that people expect us to do their homework for them. When you get the degree, will we have to do the work at your job? Can we have the paycheck?
Wayne
James Fielding wrote:
> Hello. > > Could somebody please provide help with the following question? I'm new to > Java. > > Write a program that produces a grid showing the result of throwing two > dice. The calculations should be done and placed in a two dimensional array > before printing the entire set of results, e.g. a two and a three would give > five, and be placed in element [1][2] of the array. Also, calculate > probabilities of throwing each number from above. > > Many thanks.
[ Part 8: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:56:42 +0100 From: Claudia Morgan
There's no need to be so unhelpful. I was simply asking for guidance.
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Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 16:01:43 -0700 From: Wayne Kidd
I think anyone here is willing to be helpful if there is some indication that the questioner has tried something or at least read the book. It is when the question is just the homework assignment as the teacher wrote it on the board and a "What do I do now" question that makes us feel like unpaid help.
Wayne
Claudia Morgan wrote: > There's no need to be so unhelpful. I was simply asking for guidance. Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:52:44 +0100 From: Andrew Griffin
Hi, I'm looking to create a simple chess program in Java, in order to learn the language. Trouble is I have no idea where to start. I know that Java uses classes, but I have very little/no experience of Java and very little of C++. I will be using JBuilder 2 to program with, unless anybody can direct me to a freeware copy of JBuilder 3 or later(I know it was available on a magazine cover over here in the UK, but not sure how to get hold of it now). Is there perhaps a legitimate place to download it from? I admit I have not yet checked Borland's website, so that will be my next step after posting this. Basically I was hoping for some pointers, hints and suggestions if anybody has any?
Kind Regards, Andrew Griffin.
[ Part 3: "Included Message" ]
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 20:05:04 -0400 From: Edward Diener
You can get a free personal edition of the latest version of JBuilder at http://www.borland.com/jbuilder/personal/.
Andrew Griffin wrote:
> Hi, I'm looking to create a simple chess program in Java, in order to learn > the language. Trouble is I have no idea where to start. I know that Java > uses classes, but I have very little/no experience of Java and very little > of C++. I will be using JBuilder 2 to program with, unless anybody can > direct me to a freeware copy of JBuilder 3 or later(I know it was available > on a magazine cover over here in the UK, but not sure how to get hold of it > now). Is there perhaps a legitimate place to download it from? I admit I > have not yet checked Borland's website, so that will be my next step after > posting this. Basically I was hoping for some pointers, hints and > suggestions if anybody has any? > > Kind Regards, > Andrew Griffin.
[ Part 4: "Included Message" ]
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 00:49:07 +0100 From: Andrew Griffin
Thanks for the advice mate. I downloaded version 5 following the same suggestion from othrs.
Kind Regards, Andrew Griffin. "Edward Diener"
[ Part 5: "Included Message" ] Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:13:33 -0500 From: Dale King
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"Andrew Griffin"
Suggest you read the license agreement very carefully. As I read the license agreement for JBuilder 5 personal you cannot distribute anything you work on in source code form and if you do so you agree to buy the professional version.
[ Part 6: "Included Message" ]
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:14:51 GMT From: Mark Watson
I have a 100 page free web book on my web site www.markwatson.com that has an alpha-beta chess playing program as one of the examples.
Anyway, my web book is free, so please help yourself. (BTW, I am also the author of 12 published books, with another one soon to be released on J2EE/Sun ONE). re: JBuilder: I have always liked JBuilder, but the latest free version (version 5) is illegal to use for any non-commercial applications. You might give the latest NetBeans IDE a try: open source and binary installations available from www.netbeans.org
Best regards, Mark
--Mark Watson -- Java consulting, Open Source and Content: www.markwatson.com
[ Part 7: "Included Message" ]
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:34:54 +0100 From: Andrew Griffin
Superb mate, appreciate it. Can I come to you with any problems I may have in my programming?
Kind Regards, Andrew Griffin.
"Mark Watson"
Anyone come across java decompiler ? Thank you for assistance
Dave
[ Part 3: "Included Message" ]
Date: 27 Sep 2001 10:44:36 -0700 From: D. J. Hagberg
In article <[email protected]>, "David says... >Anyone come across java decompiler ? >Thank you for assistance http://jode.sourceforge.net/
[ Part 4: "Included Message" ]
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:02:59 +1000 From: Warwick Hunter
Warwick
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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:08:19 GMT From: Nathan Zumwalt
JAD with FrontEnd Plus as a GUI is the best I've ever seen... but the JAD website seems to have dissappeared :(
-Nathan
"David Jones"
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:09:16 +0100 From: mn
"Nathan Zumwalt"
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Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:55:27 +0100 From: Clinton Edwards
-- Best regards Clinton Edwards
A Different Way of Thinking ` : - }
"mn"
I am looking for a fast and robust IDE for Java. What would you recommend?
Thanks,
Vlad
[ Part 3: "Included Message" ]
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:14:58 -0700 From: Jon A. Cruz
Vlad Vinogradsky wrote:
> I am looking for a fast and robust IDE for Java. What would you recommend?
Emacs + JDE http://jde.sunsite.dk/
-- Jon A. Cruz http://www.geocities.com/joncruz/action.html
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Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 17:50:43 GMT From: Paul Hodgetts
"Vlad Vinogradsky"
> I am looking for a fast and robust IDE for Java. What would you recommend?
We've been evaluating IntelliJ's IDEA for the past week and a half. Previously we used JBuilder 4. IDEA is really something worth taking a look at. We were able to jump in and be productive with it on the first day. After about 4 days, we learned enough of the more advanced features that it started saving us a lot of time for code editing and refactoring tasks. After following along with their mailing lists, they seem very actively committed to improving the product. We're planning on deciding whether to purchase it next week, and I'm betting we will.
Whatever IDE you consider, I recommend that you use it for at least a week or two for real world, day-to-day coding tasks. Most IDEs are complex enough that it takes a bit to explore and learn their features. And it usually takes about a week to perform enough varied tasks to exercise the IDE well enough to see if it meets your needs. It may seem like a hassle to evaluate it for that long, but you'll be living with it day-to-day for a long time, so it's worth the investment. Anyway, check out IntelliJ IDEA at http://www.intellij.com .
Regards, -Paul
[ Part 5: "Included Message" ]
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:27:07 +0200 From: Bx
Paul Hodgetts wrote:
> "Vlad Vinogradsky"
Has started to use Eclipse (www.eclipse.org)? I just installed it today and it looks promising. The GUI is very fast (they use native windows components on Win or Motif components on Linux) and IDE itself does not eat much memory. Also CVS support is interesting.
Martin
[ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:56:12 GMT From: Dave Astels
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In article <[email protected]>, "Bx"
> Paul Hodgetts wrote: > >> "Vlad Vinogradsky"
I've been using Eclipse for about two weeks... heavily on a real project. It works really well. Honestly, it's the first IDE that I've been impresed by. The CVS integration is impressive, good editor, resource management & navigation, etc. And an open API so it can be extended with plugins. Definatley worth a look. Dave -- Dave Astels
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Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:17:51 -0400 From: MWRon
In article
>I am looking for a fast and robust IDE for Java. What would you recommend?
What platform are you on, what tools do you need. What platform are you developing for, J2SE, J2ME, J2EE ? Our product CodeWarrior is a good fast and robust IDE with a good set of tools but not overbearing. If you are interested in a trial give it a whirl, we have a 30 Day evaluation version you can try out. http://www.metrowerks.com/desktop/java/
I'd be happy to help you with other questions too.
Ron
-- CodeWarrior for Macintosh, v7 and CodeWarrior for Windows, v7 are shipping now !! Call 1-800-377-5416 US and Canada Only or write [email protected] for international orders
Metrowerks - Ron Liechty - [email protected] Date: 20 Sep 2001 09:22:11 GMT From: Jyrki O Saarinen
Any recommendations for profiling tools (thread analyzing (dead/livelocks), memory and CPU profiling)? Tool should be available for many platforms.
[ Part 3: "Included Message" ]
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:52:19 +0200 From: Adam Kiezun
Jyrki O Saarinen wrote: > > Any recommendations for profiling tools (thread analyzing > (dead/livelocks), memory and CPU profiling)? Tool should be available > for many platforms. i'd recommend OptimizeIt a. --- Object Technology International Inc.
[ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: 21 Sep 2001 09:45:32 GMT From: Jyrki O Saarinen
Adam Kiezun
:> Any recommendations for profiling tools (thread analyzing :> (dead/livelocks), memory and CPU profiling)? Tool should be available :> for many platforms. : : i'd recommend OptimizeIt
OptimizeIt didn't have a thread analyzer (yet), or did it? What about JProbe? Any experiences?
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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:43:21 GMT From: Tracy Nelson
I've used JProbe pretty successfully. I found the ability to checkpoint the heap and then see memory usage deltas very useful. Hotspot identification was also pretty painless.
It's not cheap, but I found it to be a good tool. "Jyrki O Saarinen"
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Date: 26 Sep 2001 09:51:54 GMT From: Jyrki O Saarinen
Tracy Nelson
: I've used JProbe pretty successfully. I found the ability to checkpoint the : heap and then see memory usage deltas very useful. Hotspot identification : was also pretty painless. : It's not cheap, but I found it to be a good tool.
Have you used OptimizeIt also? If yes, how does it compare to JProbe in your opinion?
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Date: 04 Oct 2001 04:48:27 +0200 From: "Gunnar [iso-8859-1] Rønning"
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* Jyrki O Saarinen
I've not used JProbe, but I've heard from others that OptimizeIT is supposed to be easier to learn and use efficiently. I got results the same day I started using OptmizeIT. I found it very intuitive and easy to learn.
-- Gunnar Rønning - [email protected] Senior Consultant, Polygnosis AS, http://www.polygnosis.com/ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:26:41 GMT From: David Risner
[posted and mailed]
"Craig Sanborn"
> Here's my situation: My source code is on a remote Solaris box, I code > java by telnetting (from my win2k box) into the Solaris box, and I use > VI to do the editing and am quite happy, however my connection has been > quite slow lately and I'd like to bring the code local - but not the > whole app, just what I'm editing. I'll still compile it and run it in > my telnet session. > > I'd like to load and save the code directly on the Solaris box and I > don't want to have to manually FTP the code. A vi interface would be > great but I could stand to learn an IDE or two.
> Any recommendations?
Three ideas:
1. The latest version of Vim (http://www.vim.org/) that is still in beta has the ability to read and write files over FTP.
2. Visual SlickEdit (http://www.slickedit.com/) does very nice FTP editing and is very feature rich (including VI key binding if you like).
3. WebDrive (http://www.riverfrontsoftware.com/) lets you set up a Windows drive over an FTP connection. That is, you would be able to have the FTP site look like a Windows drive (no need for Samba then).
-- David G. Risner http://david.risner.org/
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:31:54 +0200 From: jw
"Craig Sanborn"
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Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:53:54 GMT From: David Blevins
David Blevins --- OpenEJB - Open Source EJB Container System www.openejb.org ftp.exolab.org/pub/openejb/
"David Risner"
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Date: 04 Oct 2001 04:44:43 +0200 From: "Gunnar [iso-8859-1] Rønning"
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[Answering a little late...]
* "Craig Sanborn"
Emacs is ofcourse the right answer. A serious programmer would never use an editor without a built in programming language. Elisp is fun ! Enjoy programming use Emacs ! enough religion for today,
Gunnar
-- Gunnar Rønning - [email protected] Senior Consultant, Polygnosis AS, http://www.polygnosis.com/
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Date: 3 Oct 2001 22:57:14 -0500 From: Galen Boyer
On 04 Oct 2001, [email protected] wrote:
> [Answering a little late...] > > * "Craig Sanborn"
Now, now. That could cause arguments. But, you have to admit that the auto-ftp'ing comes with the bare-bones Emacs and then one can install the JDE later.
The coolest thing about Emacs is that the modes become wonderful tools for people to build their own little world and then share it with the rest.
-- Galen Boyer Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground.
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Date: 04 Oct 2001 23:40:39 +0200 From: "Gunnar [iso-8859-1] Rønning"
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* Galen Boyer
Well, you don't actually need JDE to Java programming in Emacs. I've been doing Java code in Emacs since 1995 without JDE.
| The coolest thing about Emacs is that the modes become wonderful | tools for people to build their own little world and then share | it with the rest.
:-)
-- Gunnar Rønning - [email protected] Senior Consultant, Polygnosis AS, http://www.polygnosis.com/ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:10:23 -0400 From: Cowan
We're creating a Java swing program for children. We want to incorporate the ability for our users to draw, create straight lines, circles/ovals, rectangles, etc. We will need to be able to fill in closed areas with color, and choose line widths and colors. We will also need to add text.
Does anyone know of a drawing module that matches our needs, or do we need to create our own?
Thank you.
David Cowan
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Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:47:45 GMT From: Jonathan Nash
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:10:23 -0400, Cowan
> > >We're creating a Java swing program for children. We want to incorporate the >ability for our users to draw, create straight lines, circles/ovals, >rectangles, etc. We will need to be able to fill in closed areas with color, >and choose line widths and colors. We will also need to add text. > >Does anyone know of a drawing module that matches our needs, or do we need >to create our own? > >Thank you. > >David Cowan >
This won't do exactly what you want but the JFreeChart library at http://www.jrefinery.com/ has a lot of drawing code you could re-use for your own purposes.
Currently the code is geared to drawing graphs from an easily set-up data source. One approach would be to create data sources that provide the outline of the shape. The library also handles pie charts so the functionality for drawing circles is already in there.
Jonathan -- Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. L. Wittgenstein
[ Part 4: "Included Message" ] Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:36:08 +0200 From: Klaus Hartlage
Try this url: http://jhotdraw.sourceforge.net/
Cowan wrote:
> > We're creating a Java swing program for children. We want to incorporate the > ability for our users to draw, create straight lines, circles/ovals, > rectangles, etc. We will need to be able to fill in closed areas with color, > and choose line widths and colors. We will also need to add text. > > Does anyone know of a drawing module that matches our needs, or do we need > to create our own? > > Thank you. > > David Cowan > >
-- Klaus Hartlage Math java project: http://www.hartmath.org Riding the Java wave: http://www.jsurfer.org
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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:40:59 +0200 From: Bernhard Fischer
See demo "Draw" of Java Web Start: http://java.sun.com/products/javawebstart/demos.html
Bernhard Fischer
"Cowan"
Philip Shanks wrote:
> Re: Forte -- I've never been happy with this... It's cool to have a visual > editor for GUI building, but it is easy to wind up with a lot of "do > nothing" code that it won't let you excise from inside the IDE. And it is > s-l-o-w. I like the Tomcat integration though. For some reason, Netbeans > seems to be a smidgen better -- I sometimes run it on my PII-400 Linux > machine... but again it seems more trouble than its worth... I end up > just launching jEdit.
Could you be a little more precise ? You know, although I am biased ;-) I'd like to get some usable feedback - what is so annoying on Forte/NetBeans except the performance ?
-- Svatopluk Dedic
[ Part 3: "Included Message" ]
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:50:41 GMT From: Jonathan Nash
>Philip Shanks wrote: > >> Re: Forte -- I've never been happy with this... It's cool to have a visual >> editor for GUI building, but it is easy to wind up with a lot of "do >> nothing" code that it won't let you excise from inside the IDE. And it is >> s-l-o-w. I like the Tomcat integration though. For some reason, Netbeans >> seems to be a smidgen better -- I sometimes run it on my PII-400 Linux >> machine... but again it seems more trouble than its worth... I end up >> just launching jEdit. > >Could you be a little more precise ? You know, although I am biased ;-) I'd >like to get some usable feedback - what is so annoying on Forte/NetBeans >except the performance ? > >-- >Svatopluk Dedic
Here are my 2 cents on this topic. I currently use Forte after having tried emacs with JDE and JBuilder 5. I really liked JBuilder 5 but they require you to upgrade to enterprise edition for the bells and whistles which are included with Forte -- jar builder, cvs support, java doc support, java bean tools etc.
JBuilder has a better UI and is faster. Forte is more complicated and slower. However, it can do everything you want to do with it even if it takes a while to figure out. For example, it took me a while to figure out how to get autocompletion for my own classes. It took me a while to figure out how to write class files to a different directory than the source files are in. It took me a while to figure out how to switch from the multiple independent windows to the single window interface. For some settings it requries you to play around with a configuration file rather than being able to handle everything through the UI. It has problems with directory names with a space in them (at least in Win95).
One nice feature in Forte that is absent in JBuilder is that if you click on runtime errors it takes you to the relevant source code (both systems do thsi for compile time errors).
Performance is no trivial matter. I use Forte on a P266 with 160 meg of RAM and it can take a couple of minutes to start up.
So, IMHO, Forte is the best choice for developers who want to be able to do virtually everything within the IDE. For those with more limited needs I would recommend JBuilder.
Jonathan -- Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. L. Wittgenstein
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Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:53:29 -0500 From: Chris Riesbeck
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Jonathan Nash) wrote:
>One nice feature in Forte that is absent in JBuilder is that if you >click on runtime errors it takes you to the relevant source code (both >systems do thsi for compile time errors).
Does anyone know why so many of the lightweight tools don't do this? The runtime error message contains the class and line number.
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Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:41:08 GMT From: Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
> One nice feature in Forte that is absent in JBuilder is that if you > click on runtime errors it takes you to the relevant source code (both > systems do thsi for compile time errors).
Not absent in Pro and/or Enterprise.
-- Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
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Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:24:39 GMT From: David Ehrens
Philip Shanks
... > Re: Forte -- I've never been happy with this... It's cool to > have a visual editor for GUI building, but it is easy to > wind up with a lot of "do nothing" code that it won't let > you excise from inside the IDE.
You should probably be specific about what type of code you are unhappy with. In my experience, in generating similar code with both Forte/Netbeans and JBuilder, I found that Netbeans tends to generate more straightforward code than JBuilder for AWT apps (I don't use Swing), and it also lets you put in user code in very sensible ways. So, I'm a pretty happy customer. But if there is something you don't like, you should describe it in some detail. Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:32:12 -0400 From: srg
I am going to set up a leanring environment at home. Should I download Apache Java server or whatever it's new name is so I can eventually program serlets, JSP and JDBC programming?
What about good lerning tools - Forte? VisualAge? Jdeveloper? straight code?
Thanks so much for your help!
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Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:28:31 -0400 From: mike
"srg"
Try jRun.
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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:54:53 GMT From: George Garnett
I suggest you purchase JBuilder Personal for $60.00. Let its build some projects for you using drag and drop. Then study the code it generates for you. You can bypass the code generator and manually program too. Although it doesn't directly support servlets (you have to upgrade to the $1000 version to debug servlets in JBuilder environment), you can still develop them in the JBuilder Personal environment. You can do this because JBuilder uses jdk1.3 which comes with servlets. When your ready to try it, copy the *.class file you created over to the servlet engine directory where their 'hello world' *.class file example exists. Then run it from there. I've tried the above in Visualcafe (dont buy it) instead of JBuilder so I can't guarantee it will work in JBuilder. By running it in the server, you don't have the ability to use JBuilder debug tools. You'll have to come up with your own manual debug method instead (such as out.println() ). Go to www.javasoft.com and look for jakarta project. Download the apache web server and the tomcat application server within it ( I believe they are bundled together). Once you figure out what documentation to read, its relatively easy to install. I assume JSP will run here too without too much trouble.
More importantly, I suggest you read a pile of books on java. Its not just syntax. The object oriented philosophy takes a while to appreciate. You might want to start with 'Thinking in Java' by Eckel. Most computer books by the publisher O'reilly are well written. To use JSP, you should read books on HTML and javascript. Similarly you can read a book on JDBC. You can get your books at www.bookpool.com for about 40% off.
Example: import java.io.*; import javax.servlet.*; import javax.servlet.http.*; import java.util.Enumeration; public class HelloWorlds extends HttpServlet { public void doGet(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) throws ServletException, IOException {
res.setContentType("text/html"); PrintWriter out = res.getWriter(); out.println(""); out.println("
Enumeration en = req.getHeaderNames(); while(en.nextElement()!=null) { out.println(en.toString()); out.println(req.getHeader(en.toString())); }
}
}
"srg"
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"srg"
You need to learn the language before getting into those.
> What about good lerning tools - Forte? VisualAge? Jdeveloper? straight > code?
For a newbie just learning Java, the best choice is BlueJ at www.bluej.org. It is specifically designed to be a learning environment. -- Dale King
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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 03:34:47 GMT From: C. Lamont Gilbert
I reccommend JBuilder 5 personal, download free from borland website. This will help you to easily identify errors and such while you program. I never listen to people who claim its better to start by using notepad... manually open the java files and see whats goin on, etc. watch the compilers command window so you can see how the command to compile is issues. learn piece by piece.
"srg"
Nah! Its too complex. Use JCreator instead. Simple and easy to use for a beginner.
Another newbie. :)
"C. Lamont Gilbert"
[ Part 8: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:09:21 +1200 From: Simon Righarts
Speaking as a relative newbie myself ... only been learning Java for 2 months, just starting to get into GUI's, abstract classes and complex heirarchies .... real fun stuff :-)
ICQ: #7930776 Email: [email protected]
<< All electrons used to display this message are 100% recycled >>
I was going to be a smart-@$$. I didn't make the grade, so now I'm just a dumb-@$$
"DrinksCabSav"
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Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:52:23 +0100 From: Gina
I would recommend notetab (www.notetab.com) I have done next to all of my modules with this setup now I am doing a slightly bigger project .... and I am really gratefuzll for the debugger and all the other nice features jbuilder enterprise has ( version 4 though).
I personally think that JBuilder produces too many files .. and as a newbie this is the confusing bit apart from having to set all these paths ..... good luck!!
Gina "C. Lamont Gilbert"
> I am going to set up a leanring environment at home. Should I download > Apache Java server or whatever it's new name is so I can eventually > program serlets, JSP and JDBC programming?
Learn pain Java before these.
> > What about good lerning tools - Forte? VisualAge? Jdeveloper? straight > code? for a IDE tool I recommend Netbeans. see www.netbeans.org, it's free.
Sebastian
> > Thanks so much for your help! > Date: 30 Aug 2001 05:09:27 -0700 From: Steven Wynne
Hi,
Just an aside - I'd also recommend 'Thinking in Java', particularly because you can get it as a free electronic book (jsut do google search for it)
S
[ Part 12: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:47:38 +0200 From: Carl Smotricz
I haven't seen all the other recommendations, but I have a big thumbs up for the Java Tutorial on Sun's Web site: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/?frontpage-spotlight
This was essentially my first source of Java knowledge, and after having bought dozens of books on the subject, I still find a practical solution here for almost anything I want to do. -Carl-
Steven Wynne wrote: > > Hi, > > Just an aside - I'd also recommend 'Thinking in Java', particularly > because you can get it as a free electronic book (jsut do google > search for it) > > S
[ Part 13: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:32:03 GMT From: Ingren Jack Kau
JRun is the easiest one to setup and give you pretty good experience of what the real world J2EE environment is.
Tomcat + jBoss is the alternative one but quite difficult to setup.
Carl Smotricz wrote: > I haven't seen all the other recommendations, but I have a big thumbs > up for the Java Tutorial on Sun's Web site: > http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/?frontpage-spotlight > > This was essentially my first source of Java knowledge, and after having > bought dozens of books on the subject, I still find a practical solution > here for almost anything I want to do. > > -Carl- > > Steven Wynne wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Just an aside - I'd also recommend 'Thinking in Java', particularly > > because you can get it as a free electronic book (jsut do google > > search for it) > > > > S
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Date: 5 Sep 2001 17:07:57 -0400 From: Edwin Brown
In article <[email protected]>, Ingren Jack Kau
Uhhhhhhh...... No.
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Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 22:48:12 -0400 From: Raymond Blum
I second that "uuuuhhhh... no" I have worked with WebLogic, JRun and Tomcat (although not JBoss)
JRun is quick to install and runs pretty well but it one of the flakiest and most poorly documented. IMHO the time that you spend trying to figure out the poor examples and inadequate JRun documentation would be better spent working with Tomcat (and most likely JBoss)
---Raymond
Ingren Jack Kau wrote: > > JRun is the easiest one to setup and give you pretty good experience > of what the real world J2EE environment is. > > Tomcat + jBoss is the alternative one but quite difficult to setup. > > Carl Smotricz wrote: > > > I haven't seen all the other recommendations, but I have a big thumbs > > up for the Java Tutorial on Sun's Web site: > > > > http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/?frontpage-spotlight > > > > This was essentially my first source of Java knowledge, and after having > > bought dozens of books on the subject, I still find a practical solution > > here for almost anything I want to do. > > > > -Carl- > > > > Steven Wynne wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Just an aside - I'd also recommend 'Thinking in Java', particularly > > > because you can get it as a free electronic book (jsut do google > > > search for it) > > > > > > S
-- Cheers,
Raymond Blum Chief Technical Officer, VP of System Architecture Askit Systems
*********************************************** AskIt is Customer Support Management Magazine's USERS' CHOICE GOLD AWARD WINNER. Recognized as the easiest to use, quickest to implement, most cost-effective solution for Web-based customer service. http://www.askit.com/
NEVER ANSWER THE SAME QUESTION TWICE! ************************************************ This e-mail is intended only for the use of the addressees. Any copying, forwarding, printing or other use of this e-mail by persons other than the addressees is not authorized. This e-mail may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure.
[ Part 16: "Included Message" ]
Date: 6 Sep 2001 00:08:27 -0400 From: Edwin Brown
In article <[email protected]>, Raymond Blum
I evaluated WebLogic, JRun, JBoss, Orion, Bluestone, Borland AppServer, and some others.
Part of my evaluation was ease of initial setup and the amount of time needed to get a simple "Hello World" application up and running. (There were more criteria, but the initial setup counts heavily, to me).
And the p*ss poor documentation of JRun doomed it. Sure, I could get servlets and JSP's running quickly, but the core of the system that I am aiding in designing and building, requires session and entity EJBs, accessed within the app server environment and external to the enviornment.
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 04:19:01 GMT From: Ingren Jack Kau
All,
If you compare JRun with WebLogic, WebSphere BlueStone, I cannot argue that. But the poor soul want a recommendation of something he can get his hand wet. How can you expect him to get weblogic, webSphere or BlueStone?
May be it's only me but I have the worst experience with jBoss (not TomCat). I can hardly figure out how to get the basic thing working with jBoss. But I need more than Servlet + JSP.
Jack
Edwin Brown wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, > Raymond Blum
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Date: 6 Sep 2001 00:31:18 -0400 From: Edwin Brown
In article <[email protected]>, Ingren Jack Kau
WebLogic has 30 day free evaluation period. I'm not saying that a person can download it once, install it, and then after 30 days, reinstall it, but....
> May be it's only me but I have the worst experience with jBoss (not TomCat). > I can hardly figure out how to get the basic thing working with jBoss. > But I need more than Servlet + JSP. > >Jack
I cut my teeth using the Orion app server. Of course, I then had to learn about Ant at the same time.
I'm still learning. I believe after 1 year of solid J2EE work, I will be able to call myself a journeyman. And, this is even though I have 16 years experience in the software field. No one should expect to get this down cold in a short time. Someone could probably do a serious thesis topic on use of deployment descriptors in the J2EE framework. (Okay, maybe I'm 1/2 joking...)
Orion is free. It has a decent moderate-traffic mail list going. It needs some work with documentation, but it's still far better than JRun's documentation. And JMS isn't quite there, yet, for Orion, at least the version I have running, anyway.
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:05:06 +0100 From: Tom Anderson
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Raymond Blum wrote:
> JRun is quick to install and runs pretty well but it one of the > flakiest and most poorly documented. IMHO the time that you spend > trying to figure out the poor examples and inadequate JRun > documentation would be better spent working with Tomcat (and most > likely JBoss) i've found jBoss to be extremely easy to set up and use, but then i was only using it for EJB work. to do servlet stuff, i ran tomcat in a separate process and hooked the components up via RMI. it's not very fast, and it probably has some other drawbacks, but it works. more recent version of jBoss have in-process tomcat or jetty integration, but i haven't tried those yet. tom
-- TORG GROWS TIRED OF OBEYING PUNY HUMANS. SOON TORG WILL BREAK FREE AND CRUSH THEM WITH HIS METAL CLAWS. In the meantime, Torg enjoys making generic acid music. Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:26:55 +0100 From: Neil Waltman
I would appreciate the views of Java developers on how developer groups work:
1. It is apparent that Java can be taught and tested in the academic world as a procedural language, largely missing the advantages of object technology - encapsulation, polymorphism, inheritance, etc. Presumably the same thing happens in the commercial world. In your experience, what is the best way to determine from outside whether a particular group of developers is using the language to its full advantage? Do you have a "litmus paper"test?
2. What is the best role in a developer group for a newly qualified Java programmer? Considering the new person who in your experience was most useful to their group, what did that person do?
3. Who is usually responsible for deciding which new developers should be hired - the head developer? How is this person usually identified?
4. In the development process, how is work best allocated? Do you separate design, implementation, GUI, documentation, maintenance? Which is the best place to start?
5. How is the performance of your group measured?
6. How do you measure the performance of individual programmers/developers? Is there a hard measure?
Thank you.
[ Part 3: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:31:53 -0400 From: Paul Mclachlan
"Neil Waltman"
> 1. It is apparent that Java can be taught and tested in the academic world > as a procedural language, largely missing the advantages of object > technology - encapsulation, polymorphism, inheritance, etc. Presumably the > same thing happens in the commercial world. In your experience, what is the > best way to determine from outside whether a particular group of developers > is using the language to its full advantage? Do you have a "litmus > paper"test? Using Java (or any language) to it's full advantage is extremely difficult. Even for programmers that have the knowledge to do this, it isn't impossible that using advanced features (like nested inner classes acting as adapters) would simply confuse maintainers. I think Java is less prone to this than, say, C++: there are fewer opportunities for 'obfuscation through cleverness'.
In general, I like to judge a developer based on what he/she has built. For a given problem, what alternatives did he/she consider? If there are standards or standard APIs in place, were they aware of them? (It's a big red flag to me if they were not) If they didn't use the standards, why not?
It generally isn't useful to ask about the definition of polymorphism or what-have-you. Even if the respondant didn't use the techniques they may well have been taught the definitions by rote.
> 2. What is the best role in a developer group for a newly qualified Java > programmer? Considering the new person who in your experience was most > useful to their group, what did that person do?
I prefer intelligence to 'just' experience. Given a choice between a smart college grad with little language exposure & an average developer with 3 years Java I'd go with the college grad. Of course.. a smart developers with 3 years Java is better still (when you can find them). Java is just so large that no-one can really know it all; all you can hope for is that your developers are able to make themselves aware of existing API's & standards as they need them (as opposed to blindly re-inventing the wheel & running into problems that have been previously solved). It is much more important, then, that you hire someone capable of learning than hiring someone who has done it before.
That said, in certain areas, experience is an essential qualifier because it isn't possible to be good at it right out of college. For instance, systems programming type stuff, where it's very hard to be aware of alternatives because they aren't listed, JavaDoc style. ;)
> 3. Who is usually responsible for deciding which new developers should be > hired - the head developer? How is this person usually identified?
We have several engineers interview candidates & then just get in a room to get a consensus decision. If there isn't a consensus or it's unclear, the decision can be made by management on other grounds: what is our schedule? Can we afford to wait another couple of months before hiring someone to find the 'right person', or do we need someone now?
> 4. In the development process, how is work best allocated? Do you separate > design, implementation, GUI, documentation, maintenance? Which is the best > place to start?
Everyone takes part in design, including QA & management. It's the most fun, & it engenders a shared vision for what you're building. Maintenence is generally assigned to the person who last modified the piece of code that the error occurred in (because, after you've modified something it instantly becomes your fault if it breaks ;p~).
GUI vs Backend is definately a seperation of development teams. Documentation.. people doc their own code, but in terms of manuals or whatever we have a seperate set of technical writers. > 5. How is the performance of your group measured?
By the end product & how close we were to schedule, mainly.
> 6. How do you measure the performance of individual programmers/developers? > Is there a hard measure?
Everyone who works with said individual has to opportunity to provide feedback. It certainly isn't a hard measurement.
[ Part 4: "Included Message" ]
Date: 5 Sep 2001 09:46:19 -0500 From: Galen Boyer
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, [email protected] wrote:
> I prefer intelligence to 'just' experience. Given a choice > between a smart college grad with little language exposure & an > average developer with 3 years Java I'd go with the college > grad. Of course.. a smart developers with 3 years Java is > better still (when you can find them).
Another thing that counts high is if you are able to tell if the person _really_ wants to do the work instead of just _really_ wants a job. Genuine enthusiasm on a really smart college grad is a star in the making.
-- Galen Boyer It seems to me, I remember every single thing I know.
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:13:41 -0400 From: zzappster
Genuine enthusiasm on a really smart 50 year old is a star in the making also. Although you may not have intended it, ageism is showing here.
It can be as simple following up on someone else's comment and the stereotype of the older worker is propagated.
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[ Part 6: "Included Message" ] Date: 5 Sep 2001 21:14:13 -0500 From: Galen Boyer
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, [email protected] wrote: > Genuine enthusiasm on a really smart 50 year old is a star in > the making also.
Not really. That guy doesn't have much learning time left before his career is over.
> Although you may not have intended it, ageism is showing here.
I didn't intend it, but the fact that young, people were talked about as stars in the making, would accomplish whatever the #$%^ ageism is, I'm sure.
> It can be as simple following up on someone else's comment and > the stereotype of the older worker is propagated.
What is the stereotype of an older worker that I am propagating? Older workers are just that, older. The closer they near retirement, the less attractive they are to new employers. Hiding from this truth doesn't help the older worker get a job.
-- Galen Boyer It seems to me, I remember every single thing I know.
[ Part 7: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:15:29 -0700 From: Jon A. Cruz
Galen Boyer wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, [email protected] wrote: > > > Genuine enthusiasm on a really smart 50 year old is a star in > > the making also. > > Not really. That guy doesn't have much learning time left before > his career is over.
Gee. I guess someone had better tell Knuth that. I guess he's been living on borrowed time for well over a decade.
> > It can be as simple following up on someone else's comment and > > the stereotype of the older worker is propagated. > > What is the stereotype of an older worker that I am propagating? > Older workers are just that, older. The closer they near > retirement, the less attractive they are to new employers. > Hiding from this truth doesn't help the older worker get a job.
That's the stereotype. As a contrast, I've seen older workers who are just that, older. They have been around the block, and can get a two-week solution done and tested because of what they have under their belts, rather than a fresh person who might spend months doing a roll-your-own solution... And they could spot a bug in 5 minutes that would take a younger person weeks to track down... And they can sit in a design meeting and from experience can rattle off the design patterns that should be considered for the current problem...
To balance the retirement factor (BTW, I've been at companies where we had 35-year olds retiring), there's the factor of experience and a good software engineer can easily bring that to bear cross-language. And I know that it is a major plus for employers (at least at many larger companies). Often it's called "being seasoned" as opposed to "being green"
Many of those in hiring and managing positions are familiar with Ecclesiastes 1:9
-- Wind the Frog!
[ Part 8: "Included Message" ]
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:51:30 -0400 From: Mike Hebert
Remeber that the old guy has already made most of the mistakes the new is only about too.
I don't hire based on age I hire based on qualifications and the position. I like to use my older engineers to groom the new guys. Being hungry is great, but can also be error prone. A nice mix I believe is best.
-Mike-
"Jon A. Cruz"
[ Part 9: "Included Message" ]
Date: 6 Sep 2001 08:20:05 -0500 From: Galen Boyer
On Wed, 05 Sep 2001, [email protected] wrote:
> As a contrast, I've seen older workers who are just that, > older. They have been around the block, and can get a two-week > solution done and tested because of what they have under their > belts, rather than a fresh person who might spend months doing > a roll-your-own solution... And they could spot a bug in 5 > minutes that would take a younger person weeks to track > down... And they can sit in a design meeting and from > experience can rattle off the design patterns that should be > considered for the current problem...
And that is why talented experienced people get hired, will always get hired and their age becomes secondary to the discussion. But the discussion was, to sum it up, a college grad who knows nothing vs someone who knows a bit, but is lazy. (Maybe I read it different, and if I did I'm sorry) I would _never_ take a college grad over an older worked who had worked on everything we were working on, unless he was on his deathbed or he was just plain wierd or mean or had some other unlikable personality trait. > Often it's called "being seasoned" as opposed to "being green"
I've worked with plenty of "green" newbies, was one myself, and I really wanted a "seasoned" guy almost all the time, but then, when the "green" one was really learning alot and excited, I knew he was going to be good in the near future, but at that point in time, I still wanted _seasoned_.
-- Galen Boyer It seems to me, I remember every single thing I know.
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 08:58:32 +0800 From: Anthony Shipley
Galen Boyer
> I would >_never_ take a college grad over an older worked who had worked >on everything we were working on, unless he was on his deathbed >or he was just plain wierd or mean or had some other unlikable >personality trait.
Bugger. That rules me out on all three counts. anthony shipley
[ Part 11: "Included Message" ]
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:03:43 +0800 From: Anthony Shipley
Galen Boyer
On a more serious note, a news report a few days ago (Sorry, I haven't been able to find it so you'll have to rely on my memory) indicated that, in Australia at least, companies would to do with IT workers up to 65 years old (or older - I don't recall) to fill required vacancies.
I can't vouch for the thoroughness of the report in investigating the impact of new technology or the availability of resources from (current) 2nd/3rd world countries. anthony shipley
[ Part 12: "Included Message" ]
Date: 6 Sep 2001 08:28:10 -0500 From: Galen Boyer
>> Not really. That guy doesn't have much learning time left >> before his career is over. > > Gee. I guess someone had better tell Knuth that. I guess he's > been living on borrowed time for well over a decade.
Yes, I guess if you continue to work past normal retirement time, then you really aren't retired then. Most normal people start biding their time as they get near retirement, _aren't_looking to learn a whole bunch of new skills and _are_ sharpening up their golf clubs. But with the technology age, programming, engineering and basically tinkering with stuff is a hobby for many, so this stereotype may be falling. But with factory workers, construction workers, restaurant workers, sales guys, ... I can think of many industries where it is natural to start looking at someone's age if you will need their services in the future as well as today.
-- Galen Boyer It seems to me, I remember every single thing I know.
[ Part 13: "Included Message" ]
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:50:10 -0400 From: Anonymous
> > Genuine enthusiasm on a really smart 50 year old is a star in > > the making also. > > Not really. That guy doesn't have much learning time left before > his career is over. > > > Although you may not have intended it, ageism is showing here. > > I didn't intend it, but the fact that young, people were talked > about as stars in the making, would accomplish whatever the #$%^ > ageism is, I'm sure. > > > It can be as simple following up on someone else's comment and > > the stereotype of the older worker is propagated. > > What is the stereotype of an older worker that I am propagating? > Older workers are just that, older. The closer they near > retirement, the less attractive they are to new employers. > Hiding from this truth doesn't help the older worker get a job.
Mr. Boyer, you have a bias against older workers. You are prejudiced against older workers. Your comments above make that crystal clear.
Comments like "doesn't have much learning time left" are an insult to older workers and just plain wrong.
Your "facts and truths" are such in your closed mind only. I'm glad I do not have to work with you.
The saddest part is that you don't even know you have the prejudicial attiude. Good luck as you get older and run into people with attitudes such as yourself.
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[ Part 14: "Included Message" ]
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:09:48 -0400 From: zzappster
> > 2. What is the best role in a developer group for a newly...
> I prefer intelligence to 'just' experience. Given a choice between a > smart college grad with little language exposure & an average developer > with 3 years Java...
What might your choice be between a smart 50 year old, a smart college grad and and average developer with 3 years Java?
It might not have occurred to you but your comment above reflects a subtle ageism. It may not have been your intent but others pick up on your comments and a bad situation just gets worse.
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