Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 24 OCTOBER 1890

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy i096 Nortkern Separation. [ASSEMBLY.] Supreme Court Act AmenilmentBiit.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. F1·iday, 24 October, 1890. Petition-proposed reduction of endowments to schools of art.-Justices Prevention Bill-second reading­ resumption of debate.-Local Works By-Laws Act Amendment Bill-first reading.- Supreme Court Act Amendment Bill-committee.-Party Proces­ sions Act Repeal Bill- second reading. -Ivory Estate Enabling Dill-committee.-Establishment of District Legislatures. -Married Women's Pro­ perty Bill-consideration in committee of Legisla­ tive Council's message of 21st October.-Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks (Amendment) Bill-com­ mittee.-Local Works Loans Act of 1890 Amend­ ment Bill-second reading.-Adjournment. The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock. PETITION. PROPOSED REDUCTION OF ENDOWMENTS TO SCHOOLS OF ART. Mr. GOLDRING presented a petition from the School of Arts at Hughenden against the proposed reduction of the endowment to schools of art; and moved that it be received. Question put and passed..

JUSTICES PREVENTION BILL. SECOND READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE. On this Order of the Day being called, Mr. GANNONsaid: Mr. Speaker,-With the permission of the House, I wish to postpone this Order of the Day till this day fortnight. Question put and passed.

LOCAL WORKS BY-LAWS ACT AMEND­ MENTBILL. On the motion of Mr. POWERS, the House, in committee, affirmed the desirableness of intro­ ducing a Bill to limit the powers of local authori­ ties with respect to imposing license fees, tolls, rates, and dues, and for other purposes. The House resumed ; the CHAIR~IAN reported the resolution to the House, and the report was adopted. FIRST READING. On the motion of Mr. POWERS, the Bill was read a first time, and the second reading made an Order of the Day for Thursday next.

SUPREME COURT ACT AMENDMENT BILL. COMMITTEE. On the Ora er of the Day being called for the further consideration of this Bill in committee, Mr. POWERS said: Mr. Speaker,-I have had an assurance from the Government that it is their intention to proceed this session with a PaTty PTocessions Act (24 OCTOBER.: Repeal Bill. 1097

Bill dealing with Supreme Court costs. This not only to meetings in public places and street Order of the Day also deals with Supreme Court processions, but to meetings held in any place in costs, and I understand that the clauses in this Bill Queensland. It provides that :- can be moved as amendments in the Government " Any body of persons who shall meet and parade to­ Bill. Under those circumstances I beg to move gether, or join in :procession, or who shall assemble in that this Order of the Day be discharged from any public hou~e, tavern, or other place within the colony for the purpose of celebrating or commemorating the paper. - any festival, anni.versary, or political event, relating to The PREMIER (Hon. Sir S. W. Griftith) : or connected with any religious or political distinctions You had better postpone it. or differences, between any classes of Her Majesty's subjects, or of demonstrating any such religious or Mr. POWERS : Then I will move, Mr. political distinction or difference, and who shall bear, wear, or have among them any firearms or other offensive Speaker, that the further consideration of the weapons, or shall have publicly exhibited any banner, Bill be postponed until Thursday, October 30. emblem, flag, or symbol, the display whereof 1nay be calculated to provoke animosity between Her ~iajesty•s The PREMIER said: Mr. Speaker,-When subjects of different religious persuasions, or who shall the second reading of this Bill was under con­ be accompanied by any music of a like nature or sideration I mentioned that the Government tendency, shall be and may be deemed to be an un­ intended, if they could, to partially deal with the, lawful assembly, and every person present thereat shall subject of Supreme Court costs this session, and be and be deemed to be guilty of a misdemeanour, and we have brought in a Bill, the second reading of shall upon conviction thereof be liable to be punished which stands an Order of the Day for Thursday accordingly.'' next. I do not know whether that Bill will Now, I believe this Act is a dead letter on our commend itself to the House, but I hope it will, st:.tute book. At any rate I am informed that because we have not very much time. There is processions have taken place which could have not much time to devote to a subject of this been brought within the meaning of this nature, but we hope to .be able to deal with it Act, although it is exceedingly vague, and the briefly. authorities have taken no action in the matter. I would point out that to enforce the law Question put and passed. would give rise to two evils. The first would be that a person might go to a meeting held to com­ PARTY PROCESSIONS ACT REPEAL memorate some event without any de~ire of BILL. giving offence to any other person or to any other class in the community. There are some SECOND READING. events which some people believe to have been Mr. SALKELD said: Mr. Speaker,-In of great importance, whilst other people believe moving the second reading of this Bill, I wish the contrary. Any person who went to a public to state that I hope nothing will be said in the tea meeting, or a public meeting, without debate which will in any way give rise to any taking either firearms or a banner or any­ unpleasant feelings. I have been told that I thing else with him, would legally do so, but shall stir up strife and animosity, but I can if anyone went to that meeting with any assure hon. members that that is the last kind of emblem or banner, every person who thought I have. Although I have my own was present would be liable to be punished views upon these matters, I have always en­ for a misdemeanour. And it is not necessary deavoured to allow people to think for themselves. that a justice of the peace should command I am taking this step because I am firmly the assembly to disperse within fifteen minutes. persuaded that it is not wise legislation to create All that is necessary to be liable to punishment offences by Act of Parliament. I have always is to be !?resent at that meeting. I have been expressed in a public manner my disapproval of to meetmgs which, according to the strict letter coercive measures of that kind, which constitute of the law, would have made me liable under certain things offences against the law, which this Act. I did not know that such a law was really are not offences in themsel ve'!. I maintain upon our statute book until it was pointed out· to that the object of good legislation is to repress only me. That is one evil-making persons commit acts which are offences in themselves, but not to an offence they have no intention or desire to create offences, as I have said, by Act of Parlia­ commit, but which is committed quite unwit­ ment. Having said that, I shall just mention that tingly. The other evil is that the Act is so this Bill will repeal two Acts. One of them was vague that it depends upon the views of the passed in1846inNewSouth Wales. Sofarasi can persons concerned; but no Government would learn, the cause of the passing of that Act was a put it in force, because they would be sure to lay disturbance which took place in the Port Phillip themsel ve~ open to the charges of partizanship district in 1846-that was, of course, before the and unfairness. For instance, how can you tell discovery of gold, and before they had the Con­ what kind of banner, emblem, or music stitution in New South Wales which they now will give offence to some other person? Some have. They passed this Act for three years, persons like one kind of music and some another. and it was then renewed for another term, and I know that the bagpipes are a source of great ultimately in 1857 they passed an Act making it pleasure to Scotchmen. I enjoy them myself; perpetual, although, I believe, the original but I have heard people say they cannot endure intention was only to extend its operation for the bagpipes. another term of years; but it was made per­ Mr. LITTLE : The French did not like to petual instead, so that we inherited it from hear them at Waterloo. New South Wales at the time of separa­ tion from the mother colony. It is not an Mr. SALKEI.D : Some people say that the Act which was, passed by the Parliament of man who plays the bagpipes should be punished. Queensland, but was adopted together with the Mr. ARCHER : I think the man who said other laws then in force. As far as I can learn, that ought to be punished. this was the first Act of the kind that was passed Mr. SALKELD : I am only showing how in Australia. In 1850 a similar Act was passed difficult it is to know what is offensive to any in the Imperial Parliament, although it was not person. I saw a report in the papers a few days so stringent as the one at present in force. It ago where a certain person in a public place applied to Ireland; and differed from our present objected to a certain distinguished gentleman law in this respect, that it applied only to meet­ swinging his arms whilst walking, because he ings in public places, and to parades and pro­ said it was wrong to swing the arms. I suppose cessions in the public streets, but not to meetings that gentleman had no intention of giving offence held in buildings and in houses, Our Act applies by swinging his arms, 1098 [.ASSEMBLY.] Repeal Bill.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. Mr. SALKELD : I may speak loudly occ::t­ T. 0. Unmack): But the. man who objected sionally, but I do not think I lose my temper was out of his mind. even at election times. At any rate, I try t~ k.eep my temper. But I say that if there is any Mr. SAL~ELD : I say it is difficult to tell time when there would be justification for Y'h!'-t w:ll gn:e offence to people,. and I think enforcing such an Act as that which I wish ~t IS qmte wide of the mark to provide that to see repealed it is during an election If a person does what gives offence to and . such occasions are expressly exempted: another that he should be liable to punishment. I beheve that, as a rule, coercive measures are un­ In New South Wales a Bill was broug.ht in wise, especially when they have ::t tendency to during the present year to repeal these Acts. It cre::tte offences and make things offences which was supported by the Premier, and was passed are not _really such until ~eclared illegal by Act by the. Legishtive Assembly without division. of Parliament, and I thmk such legislation is When It went to the Upper House a division b~d. I have often, though many of my friends was taken upon it, but as there ~as not a differ from me, expressed an opinion adverse majority of members present when the division to coercive legislation against Ireland. I do not was taken it wa9 counted out. Generally, how­ know that it is wise to introduce the Irish ever, the feeling of the New South Wales f]Uestion into the colonies, but if I were in Great Parliament appeared to be that the Act should Britain I should certainly protest against coercion. be repealed. The Imperial Act was in force for I do not belong to any societv that this Bill twenty-two years-namely, from 1850 to 1872. wm:ld affe.ct in any yHouse of Lords, said :- exempts them, but I have seen persons of various "~or _a long time past he had entertained a strong political and religions opinions marching in such conviCtiOn that the effect of this Act remaining on the processions on public occasions, and. carrying ~tatute book was very different from the effect it was banners, etc., and this Act has not been enforced !nten~ed to have had by its promoters. Instead of n;npos1_ng equal restrictions upon all party demonstra­ ~g!"inst them. I hope the House will see that twn~ Ill Ireland, and operating impartially against all rt IS unnecessary to retain the Act on our statute sectwns of th_e community, it had, through circum­ book, because an Act that gives offence to stances pecuhar to the country and over which the a considerable nu m her of people in the colony Government had no control, only reached one party, and does no good, has no business to be there. and had consequently come to be regarded as one-sided I feel quite sure that if this Act were removed vexati?us, and unj11:st. It had, therefore, lost on~ essentml characteristiC which Acts of this kind should from the statute book, order would still be pre­ posse~s." served, as the local authorities have the power to Further on a noble lord said:- regulate processions. _ Only the other day, I saw HIt was sufficient to state that, with no inconsidera­ that the mayor of Brisbane thought it desirable able exuerience, and with only too accurate a sensa of to. refuse permis~ion for a procession. Then, the_ difficulties with which they had to contend, Her with regard to th1s matter of carrying firearms MaJesty's present Executive in Ireland had come to the I do n'?t think it is right for people to carry fire: conclusion that the common law provided powers arms. I?- a procession, wh~ther it is a party amply sufficient to prevent a breach of the peace. processiOn or any other kmd of procession. Mor~ than o_nce thfl'y had had occasion to take pre­ I have often thought the volunteers and mem­ cautlDns a~a1nst contingencies arising out of these demonstratwns, and on every one of those occasions bers of the Defence }force are very careless they had found the powers conferred upon them by the in carrying firearms. They often carry them common law sufficient for their purpose. Not only had ?n their shoulders, pointing towards- people they found they never had any occasion to resort to the m the streets. I do not mean to say that they powers conferred upon them by thi8 Act, but they also carry their firearms loaded, but persons towards h~d occaswn to obse~ve that this Act itself was regarded With t~e ~reatest disfavour by a coDsidm·able portion whom the rifle,; are pointed do not know whether of Her MaJesty's subjects in Ireland." they are loaded or not. The volunteers should I think, adopt the plan of sportsmen at home' He.did not make a long speech, but the purport A thoroughly trained sportsman there neve~ of It '-':as that the Act w::ts not necess::try, that carries his firearms pointing at anyone but the ordmary or common law was quite sufficient either pointing in the air or towards the g;ound. and that it was desirable that the Act should b~ ~t is not right that timid persons should be sub­ removed from the statute bo0k. Several other Jected to the annoyance of having firearms noblemen followed in the sam~ strain Lord pointed at them as they walk along the streets Cairns said that any Government that attempted and many persons do not care to have firearm~ to put the ~et in force _would lay themselves of any kind pointed at them, even thou"h they open to su.~pwron of partiality • they could not have reason to believe they are not loaded I avoid it, as ~'!e ~ide or the ?the'r would suspect think it is highly objectionable to permit firea~ms them of paruahty. The Brll was passed with­ to be . carried in any procession. Then as to out division in the House of Lords, every m~rch:ng to music, who is to decide that music is speaker who took part in the debate admitting ob]ectwnab!e ?. I know that under the Imperial that the Act was unnecess.ary and ought to be Act proc_esswmsts were !lot :;llowed to sing songs. repealed. The Act in force in this colony is There might be somethmg m that and possibly very loosely worded, and if for no other reason the objection to music comes fr~m that also it ought to be repealed on that account alone because there could be no objection to certai~ ~ny per~o!' might, without the slightest inten: tunes were it not for the associations connected twn of g1vmg offence or breakinu the law bring with them through songs. It is clear that music himself within the scope of the Act. That o'1ght could. ot:lY b~ offensive to people by reason of the not to be the case. The Act is however inopera­ !'"S?Ciatwns 1t recalls, and it cannot be offensive t!ve in some !nstances. It ~xpressly' exempts I!' Itself. In this community we have learned to t1mes _of parliamentary elections. If there is live and let other people live, and to think any time when rec-tricti ve measures would be and let other peop~e think; and it is justified, it is when perwns are excited and party only a very small-mmded man who will feeling rm;s h~gh, and we know very well that object to a number of people marching party feelmg IS very strong at election times. alo~g a &treet, because he does not approve of Mr. LITTLE : You told me that you never their particular views or opinion>'. I do not see lost you temper at an election. that anyone has any right to be offended at a. Party Processions Act [24 OcTOBER.] Repeal Bill. i099 procession of people because' they do not think · in the same way, they are liable to be pounced upon certain matters as he does. If any person upon for breaking the law. When the late wishes to be offensive, he can be offensive with­ Colonial Secretary, the Hon. J. M. Macrossan, out going into a procession, and public opinion was in power, I was very glad to hear that will correct that kind of thing. As I have when the party against whom the Act is directed said, the Imperial Act was in force from 1850 to applied to him for permission to parade the 1872, and it was then repealed. I remember JJtreets, he granted the [Jermission. I think being in Ireland once while the Act was in that since that has been done, there is noth­ force, and most disgraceful party processions ing else for us to do but repeal the Act, had taken place at the time. That was in 1863, and put all societies on the same footing. when the Act had been in force for thirteen or There is no occasion to make a long speech on fourteen years, and it was powerless to deal with the subject. I think it will be pretty generally the matter. There were party processions at admitted that this is a Bill that ought to be that time which resulted in disgmceful doings, passed. The existing Acts are doing no good ; with which I could have no sympathy. I remem­ they are simply held up as a terror against a ber that in one part of Ireland at that time certain class, because they happen to be a religious troops had to be sent to a place where something class. We have no right to make special laws of this kind occurred. I have not £gnres to for special people; our duty is to legislate for prove the statement, but I believe I am justi£ed the community as a whole. I shall support in saying that there have been less disturbances in with great pleasure the second reading of the Ireland of the kind dealt with in the Imperial Bill. Act, since its repeal in 1872, than there were from The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN said: Mr. 1850 to 1872, when the Act was in force. The Speaker,-I think the Government are shirking troubles that have occurrad in Ireland since 1872 their duty in not expressing their in<-ention with have not been caused, in my opinion, by religious regard to the Bill before the Hous,'. It is a or political differences, but have arisen from plain duty the Government owe to t:~e House agrarian differences and tronble connected with that some member of the Government~,,hould the land. They have not been the outcome of have stated their intentions with regard to it. matters dealt with in this Act which I propose to I rise chiefly for the purpose of correcting a repeal. I have read something of the history of statement made by the hon. member for Ipswich, Ireland of late years, and the difficulties there, I to the effect that I gave permission to an Orange believe, have arisen, during the last sixteen or procession. I did not give permission. I could not seventeen years, from causes which would not be give them permission to have a proces~ion, because affected by this Party Processions Act had it been it was beyond my power to give any such per­ in force during the time, and which the Act was mission. What I did was this: I told the never intended to apply to. Some hon. members authorities of the Orange Association who con­ may not agree with me on these points, but I sulted with me that I would not instruct the think that if legislation in Ireland was less re­ police to prevent the procession if they agreed to strictive in character, and if there were less coer­ the condition I imposed, and that was, that they cion, there would be very little of the pro­ should walk without party banners and without ceedings that have been so objectionable. That party music. I think they can walk on every is my view of the case. In these colonies there 12th July if they will do it in that style. It is is less religious and political animosity than in the party banners and the party music that are other places I could mention. I do not mean chiefly forbidden. Men belonging to Orange religious or political differences; there may be societies in this colony have before now walked plenty of that without harm, but I refer to ani­ to their churches on Sundays, and nobody has mosity and bitter feeling. There is not, I attempted to interfere with them. It is only think, the slightest fear of this community being when they carry party banners and play party endan&'ered in any way by the passage of a Bill music that such processions become illegal. I like thrs for the repeal of the Party Processions do not think the Act should be repealed. If Act, and with that firm conviction I beg to move repealed it would only have the effect of creating the second reading of the Bill. disturbance, and that is a thing to be avoided. Mr. MACFARLANE said: Mr. Speaker,-I ·we ought to do nothing that will in any way intend to support the second reading of this Bill, lead to a breach of the peace. \Ve all know not only because I approve of the Bill myself, what has happened in other countries, and also but because it is the opinion of the con­ in Australia, where processions of this kind have stituents I represent that the Party Processions been allowed. It was because processions of Act should be repealed. During the last that kind led to disturbances in New South general election one of the questions put to the "\Vales that the Act was passed. Firearms candidates in Ipswich was, "Are you in favour were used there, and also in Melbourne; of the repeal of the Party Processions Act?" I and in consequence of the passing of the stated that I was in favour of its repeal, and Act there has been nothing of the kind now that I have the opportunity given me I since. In the colonies, Orangemen and Catholics shall support this Bill to repeal that Act. I do live in harmony and peace together. From my not think the Act was ever required in Queens­ intercourse with Orangemen I do not think land ; and to my know ledge there has never been many of them are extremely anxious to walk in an occasion in this colony when it was necessary procession. There is only a very small section to put that Act in force. The party the Act is of them in Brisbane who really do want to.walk in directed against has always been a law-abiding procession, and there is a very large section who are party in this colony. I look upon the Act as obso­ ashamed to w:;,lk, and who say that such walking lete, and of no use in this colony. I do not think it will very likely lead to a disturbance of the peace. wise to have an Act in this colony directed to a I gave those instructions to the police because I particular party in the community, and they found that the smaller but the more deter­ naturally feel aggrieved n,t the existence of such mined section were determined to walk, and an Act. I am a member of various bene£t I did not wish to compel the police to societies, but I am not a member of any break their heads, which I could have done, of Orange society. I never was, and never will course, if I bad given instructions to the police be, a member of an Orange society; but I to do so. They walked, and the walk satis£ed say it is strange that members of benefit them. They wanted to walk in procession, not societies may go upon the streets and parade because it was an ordinary anniversary, but without any notice being taken of them, while if because it was the bi-centenary of the first 12th the members of another society parade the streets July, 1690. I do not know that they have ever llOO Party Processions Act [ASSEMBLY.] Repeal Bilt.

displayed any anxiety to walk on any previous stance, of the Hibernian Society it does not 12th July. I do nut think the majority produce any ill-feeling in me, nor any feel­ of the Orangemen desire the repeal of the ing except that of admiration for a beauti­ Act, and I fear that if it is repealed the peace ful work of aro; and on the other hand, the will be in danger of being broken. If the embler!'ls of the Protestant Alliance Friendly Act could be so altered as to allow certain Society, which are almost identical with the processions without party banners and party emblems of the Orange Society, do not cause music, I for one should have no objection to it. any such feeling in me. There can, I think, be No doubt friendly societies march in procession little danger in repealing this Act, in trying to with banners and music, but the emblems are not forget a state of things which we all deplore. party emblems, and the music is not party music; We desire no party here but that of United therefore there is no disturbance. I hope the Australia. United Australia is the only party House will have the good sense not to allow the which I desire to see, and I only wish to die as I Act to be repealed in the bald way the hon. have lived, under the banner of the Southern Cross. member asks, and I trust the Governm~nt will tell The HoN. P. PERKINS said: Mr. Sr;eaker,­ us what they mean to do with regard to the Bill. I think it is very unfortunate that this matter The PREMIER said: Mr. Speaker,-! did should be dragged up in the House. There is not rise when the hon. member for Fassifprn sat more important business to transact here. I may down for two reasons. First, because I do not preface my remarks by saying that I do not know that the Government collectively have any belong to any society-secret, clandestine, or any opinion on the subject; I do not know the other name you like to call them. I once joined opinions of my colleagues upon it; and, secondly, the Oddfellow", but I was so ashamed of the because I thou((ht it just as well to hear some· transaction that I cleared out-did not attend the thing in opposit10n to the Bill before I expressed next meeting. What has led up to this is the my own opinion with regard to it. My opinion action of the late Colonial Secretary, Mr. is in favour of the Bill. I think the Act is JVIacrossan, receiving a depntation on the subject. out of date altogether ; it is a dead letter. It does not redound much to his honour, con­ I have not the slighte>t fear of the in­ sidering the distinguished career he has had. He troduction mto Queensland of party warfare said the Orangemen had as good a right to walk in the streets. There has been none hitherto, as the Hibernians. and the repeal of the Act would not make the The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN : I said no slightest difference. It is like one of tho~e penal such thing. laws made in days quite different from the pre­ The HoN. P. PERKINS : It was so reported sent. I believe people of all sorts in Queensland in the newspapers. can live peaceably side by side. I happened to be driving near the procession on the 12th July The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN: I know it last, and I did not see any sign of irritation or was; but it was untrue. excitement, or of any great enthusiasm on the The HoN. P. PERKINS: Of course we can part of tha procession. I confess I think deny anything afterwards. I know means were the Act is a useless Act as it stands ; taken to throw the responsibility on to the it does no good, and all Acts of that kind ought police to keep the peace in the streets. I to be removed. Those are thA reasons why I am know what would have happened if some going to vote for the Bill. I do not anticipate drunken Irishman had thrown "' stone into that any disturbance, and if people are determined crowd. We can picture what would have followed. to have a quarrel, I do not think the existence For my own part, I do not care about the of this Act on the statute book would have any fanatics, or maniacs, or lunatics. They may effect in preventing it. keep marching all day long if they will only give me passage in the street to walk or drive along. Mr. BARLOWsaid: Mr. Speaker,-Thisisone I look upon them all as lunatics. I never of the very few subjects upon which my consti­ felt more insulted than when Father Henne­ tuents requested me to pledge myself. As my hon. berry marched my countrymen and women colleague has said, one question which wa" put to around Toowoomba with badges and banners, us at the general election was whether we would wa.Jking in the dust and dirt. I heard vote for the repeal of the Act which the hon. tl1Py presented the candles to him afterwards. member for Fassifern is endeavouring to bring I was perfectly ashamed of the transaction, and about, I am sure that this House, and I am I feel ashamed of this transaction. It is only sure that I myself can approach this question in lunatics or men without sense, or like the rogues a perfect spirit of impartiality anrl coolness. The who lead the labour movement, who go in for grounds upon which I advocate the repeal of the this marching order. Will any reasonable man Act, and upon which I carry out the pledge I do so? Great capital was made out of the con­ made, are these: I think we should endeavour ce"sion the hon. gentleman gave. Then it in a new country like this to get rid of those was Raid that it was no conceosion. Then statutes which, as hon. members have said, are they said they defied him, and had a aimed at particular bodies, and which are in ri~.rht to march. It would be better to themselves perpetual monuments of a state of let them all march, and march as often as things which we wish to forget. I have never in they like, and with whatever banner they like the course of my somewhat long life ever said to hold up. I don't cara. I assure you that onewor,I disrespectful of the religious observances one thing rs just as agreeable to me as the other, or the religious belief of any section of the people. the green or the yellow. If they are foolish Therefore I think that in a case like this, where enough to indulge in those practices ; if they get an Act is eminently and visibly applicable to only .any amusement or profit out of it, I don't care. one organisation-to which I take this opportunity I should let them all go to hell their own way. I of saying I do not belong and never have would not trouble them, or arrest them on the belonged, therefore I am free to speak as I march. I think it is a great pity the hon. member think on the subject-we may very well sweep it away. There is another aspect of the case, and for Fassifern has introduced this disturbing that is with rega,rd to friendly societies. I have element into the Honse. not been able to trace up the law to see how it is HONOURABLE :MEMBERS: No, no! Soothing that friendly societies are allowed to mar,ch with element. emblems, some of which are as distinctly party The HoN. P. PERKINS: We have quite emblems as anything that is prohibited by this enough other business to transact, which we Act. When I see the beautiful banner, fo~ in· should look straight in the face. If the House Paroty Prooaessions A.at [24 OoroBER.] Repeal Bill. 1101

is willing to repeal the Act, I am agreeable. Mr. DONALDSON: I am entitled to my But I would point out that in New South Wales opinion on that subject, and I think if it had they must have seen good reasons for passing it. not been for that Act a feeling would have We have nothing to do with the feuds and grown up year by:year that should not be en­ fights of the old country here. I do not want couraged-a similar state of feeling to that to see them imported here. I desire to forget which exists in Ireland and in Canada. At the them, and if any one wants the old country present time a very strong feeling exists in feuds and fights let him go there. Consequently, Canada. I should advise the hon. member to withdraw the Bill. Mr. BARLOW: It is a coercive Act. Mr. DONALDSON: It is an Act to try to The COLONIAL TREASURER {Hon. Sir prevent the breach of the peace, and that is not T. Mcilwraith) said: Mr. Speaker,-It seems to coercive. All Acts are more or less coercive. be assumed by some hon. members who have Acts . that prevent people from stealing are spoken that were it not for this Act being on the coerCive. statute book, party processions would take place. If the Act had not been in force; would The HoN. P. PERKINS: Not at all. the deputation have waited on the late Colonial Mr. DONALDSON: Yes; because they say Secretary for the purpose of getting ieave to persons who wish to steal, that they will be to march on the last 12th July? Why, punished for so doing. Of course I do not wish to the matter would have been referred make any comparison between party processions to the traffic board, and they would have and stealing. I trust that in a colony like this, taken very good care that no such procession and in Australia generally, we shall put down would take place. It is a matter for the traffic these things and give them no encouragement. board, not for responsible Ministers. I have no Let us grow up here side by side, and not hesitation in saying that a mistake was com­ know what these differences are. The rPligious nlitted in allowing the procession to take place denomination to which he belongs is one of the on the last 12th ,July. We do not know what very last things I know of my friend.s or might have resulted. I do not think the hon. acquaintances, and if the feeling of religious gentleman himself believed it was the proper thing antagonism is encouraged here I am afraid to do. It was a" very dangerous thing to do. But there will be bitternass on both sides, even will anyone reading that statute not see in the other colonies. I have heard of that that it is a relic of barbarism? Have we not state of things existing, but I am pleased trust in our own citizens, and in the traffic to say that I know very little of the ques­ board? I say, refer the matter to the traffic tion beyond what I have beard. Whilst I board. should be willing on all occasions to give the greatest liberty to persons of 2ll opinions in the Mr. MURPHY: There is not a traffic board community, I am not prepared to vote for the in every town. second reading of this Bill, which I fear will not The COLONIAL TREASURER : I say the have the effect that the hon. member who has traffic board and the mayor have a great deal to introduced it anticipates. do with the matter. I have the greatest faith in Mr. McMASTER said: Mr. Speaker,-It is them, that they would not allow anything of my intention to support the second reading of the the sort. Why should any party representing Bill, and I may say that no speech has been made any political section demand the use of the since the hon. membPr f'Jr Fassifern spoke, that streets for a certain time? They belong to the is more in favour of the repeal of the Act than the public, and it is only on very exceptional speech of the hon. the leader of the Opposition. occasions that any party should be allowed to He says let us grow up together not knowing to process. I do not believe in the streets being what religious denomination each of us belongs. If interrupted for any such purpose. On some that is the desire of the hon. gentleman, why not great national occasion a procession might be repeal this Act? The Act is a standing disgrace, allowed, but party processions ought to be put because it declares that there is a division down, and I have not the slightest doubt the between us-between the Protestant and Roman traffic board will put them down far more Catholic portions of the community. Such is effectually than responsible Ministers. not the case, I am glad to say, in Queensland. A great deal of capital has been made out of Mr. DONALDSON said: Mr. Speaker,-The the supposed permission that the Colonial Secre­ hon. gentleman who has just spoken, and his tary gave to the Orangemen on the last 12th colleague, the Chief Secretary, have changed July. I may state that application was made their opinions since this question was last before to me, as mayor of the city, a month before the the House. It is a long while ago; but on that 12th of July, for permission to hwe a procession occasion they voted against a similar proposal. of Orangemen, and I refused to give permission, The HoN. SIR T. MciLWRAITH: I don't knowing that this Act was on our statute book. remember ever voting on the question. A deputation waited on me, but they did not move me. To my astonishment one morning a Mr. DONALDSON: Both hon. gentlemen deputation again waited on me and presented voted on the occasion, and both voted against me with a letter, and also informed me the proposal. The best proof that there is no that they had the permission of the Colonial necer;sity for repealing this Act, is that up to the Secretary to march in procession through present day there has been no necessity for re­ Queen street. Before I looked at the document pea,ling it, nor any public demand for doing so. I said the Colonial Secretary had no power to It is a matter I know very little about, I am glad give permission, and that if he had given it it was to say, because I do not belong to any society, beyond his power, because that authority was and as an Australian I feel it to be my duty to vested in the municipal council, and any proces­ assist in keeping down anything of a party nature. sion which took place, except under the authority We belong to a new country, and we have of the mayor, was illegal. They produced the no business to introduce here any old traditions. application to the Colonial Secretary for permis­ We shoald leave them behind because they do sion to have a procession up Queen street, and the not concern us. The fact of this statute being hon. gentleman wrote across it, as far as I can so long in force I believe has had considerable remember, these words- effect in preventing disturbances. " The Government have no objection to your pro­ cession. The police will be instructed not to interfere. HONOURABLE MEMl3ERS : No, no I H J. MA.CROSSAN." 1102 Party Processions A.ct [ASSEMBLY.] Repeal Bill.

They handed me thn,t, with a verbal message from Mr. McMASTER : They informed me that the Colonial Secretary to the effect that they had that was the only restriction that the Colonial bettershowitto the mayor. I said, "Yes, I can see Secretary had placed upon their actions-that that Mr. Macr.ossan has told you he has no objection for ~he sake of peace they should not play party to the processiOn, but he has no right to give the music. They had party banners and they had permission, and, notwithstanding the Govern­ music, but not party music. There are party ment doing this, I object to it." I objected on the tunes which are very offensive. ground that ~here was that Act on the statute book. Mr. BARLOW: I do not know them when I The processwn took placP. The police did inter­ hear them. f~re. There were some forty foot police, and eight or ten horsemen. There were horsemen in Mr. McMASTER: I know only two. So far front of the procession, and there were four or as ·the local authorities are concerned, we have five behind, and a policeman every ten or twenty the sole power of allowing processions in the yar.ds on each side. I saw the procession, but no streets. The only procession we cannot prevent actiOn .was taken-although it was against the is a military procession. The Parliament has authonty of the mayor-and for this reason : It given us power to make by-laws, and those by­ would be very difficult to know whether those men laws are submitted to the Executive Council '':'ere Orangemen or Protestant Alliance Associa­ and signed by the Minister in charge of th~ tiOn men. As a matter offactthosemenaremarch­ department-the Colonial Secretary. Those by­ ing every year in procession. The Protestant Alli­ laws then have the force of law, and the Govern­ ance Society is a friendly society re"istered under ment has no right to interfere. The other day I the Friendly Societies Act, and the Hibernian stopped a procession, and I was very much ~ocietyis t?e same. They generally have a proces­ blamed for it. I forbade the procession but sion on hohdays, and the mayor never refuses per­ soll'!e m.en I>'!arched in spite of me, and the mission: They walk with music, banners, and pohce did their duty, and some of those men paid sashes, 111 exactly the same manner as the men did the penalty. I am very pleased to think that on the 12th July. The sashes worn by the Orange­ the Colonial Secretary upheld the authority of the me!' a:re the same as those worn by the friendly mayor upon that occasion. We never prevent the somet1es ; they have bands of music, and so procession on Eight Hours celebration day and we have the friendly societies. Now I say what is allow all friendly societies and Sunday schools to the use of keeping an Act on our statute book to march through the streets, and we regulate the p_revent these processions when we give permis­ traffic accordingly. We do not object to them siOn to the very men whom this statute is sup­ but we did object to a torchlight procession on ~ posed to prevent marching in pr0cession to do night when the moon was full ; but that was a so.? . If these men came to me and ask for per­ very different sort of procession. What is the miSSIOn to walk as the Protestant Alliance use of keeping this Act upon the statute book? Society or the Hibernian Society I should We shall find that the Orangemen and the Hiber­ probably grant it; but if they co~e to me nians will march, even if the Act remains on the !IS .Orangemen, .and knowing that this Act statute book, so why should we have it staring us in the face? The parties at the head of the :s 111 force, I will not give them permission m face of the law on the subject. The Orange societies are not anxious to have it men ar:e nothing more than the very people repealed. I do not belong to any society. t~at this Act tries to prevent marching in praces­ Mr. SALKELD : You are an alderman. swn-one lot consists of Protestants and Orange­ Mr. McMASTER: That is quite enough. I men, the other of Roman Catholics and Hiber­ know that on several occasions I have been nian~. There is J?O di_fference, and we have had asked to support the repeal of that Act and I no disturbances With either society; but the very have said that I look upon it as worthlesd. The fact of Orangemen walking in procession under Orangemen, as a rule, look upon that as an Act the na:ne of Orangemen is objectionable to the o!her side. I am perfectly satisfied there was no specially to prevent their marching in the disturbance on the last 12th Julv buttheremiaht streets, and so long as that Act is on the statute boo~ they will consider it an Act specially have been. I considered at t"h'e time that the agamst them. When the mayors think it is Colonial Secretary had no right to interfere and desirable to stop a procession they will do so · and say that the Government had no objection. He it is desirable that they should have the m~tter ought to have told those men that he had no in their hands, backed up by the police. The power, and that it was in the local authorities' police have backed up their authority in the past hands; l~ut the very fact of the Colonial Secre­ tary tellmg them that the Government had no and will do so in the future. I suppose the Orange~ objection, and that the police would not interfere, men will march again on the next 12th July. was tantamount to a permit, and whether the The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. H. hon. gentleman used the remarks attributed to Tozer): They ought to have more sense. him or not-that they had as much right Mr. McMASTER : Those men who wanted to to walk in procession as the Hibernians-I hold a torchlight procession on a moonlight night can assure him that the deputation came straight ought to have had more sense ; but there are from his office t,, mine, and repeated those numbers of men who have not so much sense as words to me before they appeared in the Press. the Colonial Secretary. They bring some feel­ They said the Colonial Secretary had stated ings from home with them that they ought not to that they had as much right to walk in the bring. Theyoughttohaveleft those feelings behind streets as the Hibernian Society. I said that them; but while we keep an Act on our statute might be, but it did not alter my decision. I book to keep separate from each other those two said, "You wish to walk through the streets as bodies, that is the very thing that will keep them Orangemen, and not as the Protestant Alliance separate Society; the Hibernians have walked through the streets as a friendly sooiety ; but you wish The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN said: Mr. to I>'!arch as a society that there is an Act of ~peaker,-I wish to make a personal explanation Parliament to prohibit." I say that this Act is m answer to what fell from the hon. member who not worth the paper it is written upon. Those has just sat down, and from the hon. member for men all belonged to the Protestant Alliance Cambooya. They both said that it was reported Society, and they could walk with the same that I had stated to a deputation that waited upon banners and the same party music. me that the Orangemen had as much right to The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN : They walk through the streets as the Hibernians. had no party music, Mr. McMASTER : They said so to me, Pa'l'ty P'l'oaessions .Aat [24 OCTOBER.] Repeal Bill. 1103

The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN : I saw it Mr. MURPHY: The hon. member said they reported in one of the evening papers. Now, if were guarded by something like forty policemen, I said that, I must have been confessing to a and he also said that there was a danger of an great ignorance of the law. I have read the outbreak. Party Processions Act more than once. The Mr. MeMASTER: I did not say so. statement was absurd upon the face of it, because I knew the law. I said that per­ Mr. MURPHY: I think the hon. member IIDnally I had no more objection to the Orange­ said there was a danger of an outbreak if they men walking through the streets than I had were allowed to march through the streets as to the Hibernians. That was what I stated; and Orangemen. when I Raw how I was reported in one of the Mr. McMASTER: No, I did not say so. evening papers I made it my business to see one of Mr. MURPHY : Well, there may be a the reporters, and had the mistake corrected, and danger. I do not say there is, or that there is the report was contradicted in the next morn­ likely to be-l hope there is not-but I am sure ing's CoUJ·ier. That report made it look as if I was ignorant of a law that I knew very well. I all that feeling is becoming more and more knew the Hibernians and Protestant Alliance attenuated in this country. Societies had a right to wa.Jk, but without party Mr. BARLOW : And this Act keeps it alive. banners or music. Mr. MURPHY : It will gradually die out. Mr. MURPHY said: Mr. Speaker,-! feel I am only speaking as a disinterested individual, like the leader of the Opposition. I have no and I can say that if the Act is repealed we feeling in this matter at all. I am an Australian, shall be running the risk of a collision, and if and know nothing whatever about Orangemen or a collision once occurred anywhere in the colony, any other society of the kind. When I saw this that feeling would bubble up at once. We know Bill I asked myself, why do certain persons it is here pretty strongly, more especially in some require this law to be repealed? I have never parts of the colony. vV e know that in Ipswich, felt that this Bill in any way interfered with for instance, the Orange feeling is very strong, me. and we know that in Ch:uters Towers it is also Mr. McMASTER: Then why keep it on the very strong, and if party processions take place statute book? there it may cause trouble. If they do not want party processions, and if those processions Mr. MURPHY : I do not know that it inter­ can be prevented by the local authorities, there feres with the liberty of any person in the com­ is no necessity for repealing this Act ; but the munity, and therefore I do not know what is the object in repealing this Act, in my opinion, object in repealing it. The object in having it is that they wish to have thes: party proces­ repealed must be that certain persons may hold sions. If they do, then instead of allowing this these party processions and stir up that old world feeling to die out, they will only increase the ran­ strife in this new colony. I have read the Party cour between the parti

Mr. DALRYMPLE said: Mr. Speaker,-I wishes in the manner they would like. I was do not agree with the hon. member who has last rather surprised to hear the Colonial Secretary spoken. If my reading of the Act is carrect, it say that he viewed the procession that has been does not in the least degree interfere with the mentioned from a balcony, and thought "what right of people to walk in procession, whether fools these people must be. " I have no doubt they are members of religious bodies or not. It that the gentlemen forming that procession will simply interferes with people, according to the think what a fool the Colonial Secretary must be terms of the Act, doing those things which are to hold such an opinion of them. \V e ·all of us calculated to provoke a breach of the P''ace. do things at times which, in the eyes of other And as there is a law which prevents a people, n,ppear foolish. I am sure. that even the solitary individual doing anything- of the sort, Premier of the colony does things at times and visits him with severe penalties if he which even a,n humble individual like myself does, hon. members who wish to repeal the thinks very foolish; but for all that I should Party Processions Act should aho repeal the not like to c:

Mr. BUCKLAND said: Mr. Sp2aker,­ actual riot, and some unfortunate men got into Whatever may have been the reason for placing gaol. The sole rPason for repeating the lecture this Party Processions Act on the statute book of W•IS because it gave offence to a certain section the colony, l fail to see any reason why it of the community. vVe do not want this sort of should remain there. I believe in the repeal of thing in Queensland, and the retention of the that Act, and shall vote for the second reading Act will prevent any such rows taking place. of this Bill. It is evident to me that the Act is Mr. Mo:v!:ASTER : The Act only refers to a dead letter, as processions take place con­ party processions. stantly, and for the purposes which are sup­ posed to be suppressed under this Act. A lYir. GANNO:c;r: There was no procession on number of societies constantly march with flags this occasion; it was a lecture. · and banners, and they exist for just the same Mr. BARLO\V : Delivered in a hall the purposes as the two bodies which the Act was lecturer had himself hired and paid for. passed to suppress. I think the time has arrived when the Act should be repealed. \V e Mr. GANNON: I recollect that when Pastor know that any bodies such as the Salvation Chiniquy lectured at Ipswich, and Father Army or the Blue Ribbon people are amenable Henneberry lectured in opposition to him, it to the law if they commit a breach of the peace. eau ,ed a vast amount of ill-feeling. I am certain that if this Act is repPaled, Mr. SALKELD : That has nothing to do with and the Orange or Hibernian societies walk this Bill. in procession they will also be amenable to the law if they provoke a breach of the peace. That Mr. GANNON: If it had not been for the being so, I comider the Act is a dead letter, and existence of the Act, those lectures would have that it will remain so. I sh,tll in consequence vote given rise to a great many processions which for the second reading of this Bill, and I hope would have caused no end of rows. The hrm. that the good sense of the House will show that member for Fassifern has been very ill-advised the time has arrived when the Party Proces0ions in endeavouring to bring about a repeal of the Act should be repealed. Act. Everyone seems agreed that the Act has never done any harm, and I am afraid that if it Mr. LISSNER said : Mr. Speaker,-1 do not is repealed it may cause a vast amount of mis­ see that there is any particular reason for re­ chief. These rows should not occur in ohis pealing this Act. It is vgry well where it is. colony, and I, as an Australian, will do my I do not think there is a majority of people utmost to keep out anything of the kind. I trust in Australia who take much interest in the Battle the Act will not be repealed. of the Boyne-an event that happened about 200 years ago. I do not see why people should Mr. LITTLE said : Mr. Speaker,-I have be allowed to march in procession in order to listened with great pleasure to the speech of the annoy anybody ehe. I have no religious feelings hon. member for Toornbul. He is an Australian in the matter, as I belong to a country where native ; so am I; and as natives we say that people are allowed to go either road, so long as we do not want the quarrels and feuds of the they do not break the peace of the country, old world introduced here und0r the Southern Prevention is better than cure, and the Act being Cross. We want to work hand in hand, men of on the statute book, it will always be a restric- · all creeds; and to bring about that result the Aus­ tion on those who wish to create disorder, and tralian natives will stand together as one man. evade the necessity of reading the Riot Act. For vV e are glad to meet people from the old these reasons I shall vote against the Bill. world who make this the land of their adoption, but we say to them, "Leave your feuds on the Mr. GANNON said: Mr. Speaker,-I cer­ other side of the line." Those unfortunate tainly think the Act should be allowed to remain feuds havo not yet made their appearance in the on the statute book. Speaking as an Australian new world, and the hon. member for Fassifern who has every desire to see old world quarrels is trying to revive animosities and to rouse left out of these colonies, I am very much afraid passions which should be buried a hundred that if the Act is re])ealed it will lead before thousand fathoms deep. I shall vote against the long to rows from whlch the colony has hitherto second reading of the Bill. been free. I speak with a certain amount of knowledge, and more as a bushman than Question-That the Bill be now read a second a city man. vVe all know that bushmen have time-put. very little religion, and I am afraid I am The House divided :­ unfortunately like most of them; still I have a AYEs, 19. great objection to seeing religious disturbances Sir S. W. Griffith, Messrs. Cowley, Unmack, Drake, introduced into the colony. This Bill, intro­ Aland, Salkeld, Annear, Smyth, Barlo..-, Grimes, Hyne, duced by the hon. member for Fassifern, has Isambert, :llacfarlane, Archer, Buckland, Perkins, ::\lorry, been suvported by the Ipswich members, and we Mc211aster, and W. Stephens. all know that Ipswich is a very hotbed of NoEs, 18. religious dissensions. l\fessrs. Donaldson, 3-iacrossan, Pattison, Li.ssner, Mr. BARLOW: No. Hamilton, Little, Dalrymple Corfield, Palmer, Murray, Agnew, Gannon, Jessop, \Vatson, Hodgkinson, Tozer, Mr. GANNON: I know what I am speaking Dunsmure, and Callan. about, and if necessary I could give many Question resolved in the affirmative. instances to prove my words. On the motion of Mr. SALKELD, the com­ Mr. SALKELD: I think the hon. member mittal of the Bill was made an Order of the Day ought not to go into that subject ; it is very for this day fortnight. ill-advised. Mr, GANNON: I recollect many years ago IVORY ESTATE ENABLING BILL. coming down from Dalby after delivering a flock CmnrrTTEE. of sheep, and arriving at Ipswich on my road to Brisbane I saw a placard at the school of arts On the motion of Mr. ANNEAR, the House announcing that a certain lecture was going to went into committee to consider this Bill in be delivered. vVandering about and not knowing detail. what to do with myself, I heard the lecture; and Preamble postponed. the lecture gave such great offence to a certain Clause 1-"Power for trustees to mortgage section of the community that it was repeated. and renew mortgages "-having been amended There was a great row ; in fact there was an verbally, was pub and passed. Establishment of [24 OcTOBER.] District Legislatures. 1107

The PREMIER asked the Chairman to put also take the opportunity, without introducing, the clause again in order to make a further I hope, any contentious matter at the present am~ndment. time, to state what were the reasons that actuated Mr. DONALDSON said he had not the the Government in proposing this amendment. slightest objection to the Bill, nor to the clause ; The Government have had, of course, under con­ but he thought the course suggested might sideration for a considerable time the claims of establish a very dangProus precedent in other theNorth to a separate Government, and also the cases. claims of the Central district. They have also considered the present position of the federation The PREMIER said the amendment was movement in Australia, and recognising as they omitted inadvertently. do, the desirableness of giving to the J'\ orthern The clause having been again put, was amended and Centr~tl as well as the Southern districts of by the insertion of " from time to time " in the the colony separate powers to regulate their own 47th line, and agreed to. local affairs, they believed that it was p03sible On clause 2-" Application of moneys"- at the present time, or within a very short period, to propose a scheme that would give the Mr. ANNEAR moved the omission of the Northern and Central portions of the colony all words '' and personal." that they desire to have when a federation is Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, established, and at the same time avoid the put and passed. difficulty that might be placed in the way of a Clause 3-" Completion of mortgage "-passed federation of Australia generally by the estab­ with a verbal amendment. lishment of new and independent colonies, the Clauses 4 and 5 passed as printed. assent of each of which would be required to the federation scheme. The proposal the On clause 6-" Short title"- Government make in effect is this : that the Mr. P ALMER said it was extraordinary that Northern and Centml districts of Quee.nsland such an amount of work was necessary to rectify should be now, or as soon as possible-not this a very slight error in the original will. If the year, of course, but next yea.r I hope- consti­ word " mortgage '' had been inserted in the will tuted separate self·governing States to the same there would have been no need for a select extent as they would be if a federation were committee to bring up a report, and no need for established. the Bill ; and a great deal of expense would have The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN : An Austra­ been saved. He was surprised that some simpli­ lian federation? fication could not be made in the law, whereby such a little work could be done without an The PREMIER : Yes ; an Australian fede­ extraordinary amount of expense. lt was a pro­ ration. They would then be in the po,.ition that blem for the coming man to solve. they claim to be in if a federation were estab­ lished ; and in the meantime no additional The PREMIER said it was not the fault of difficulties would be thrown in the way of Aus­ the law. The testator probably did not in­ tralian federation. Now, for those who are tend the trustees to mortgage his land ; hut sincerely in favour of federation, and sin­ now they had to choose between giving effect to cerely in favour of local autonomy, that proposal the wishes of the testator and ruining the bene· ought to be satisfactory, became it gives them ficiaries. all that they desire from either point of view, Clause put and passed. whereas any other scheme is certainly bound Schedule 1 passed with a verbal amendment. to be objectionable from one point of view or the Schedule 2 passed as printed. other. I did not on a former occasion enter into details as to what should be the powers of the new Preamble put and passed. States, because I spoke very briefly. I am sorry I The House resumed; and the CHAIR:IIAN reported did speak so briefly on the point. But it is a the Bill with amendments. matter un which I could not make any powitive The report was adopted, and the third reading statements, because it will have to be discussed of the Bill made an Order of the Day for at the convention which will m0et next year. Tuesday next. The Government expect that they will be in a position next segsion to report the result of the ESTABLISHMENT OF DISTRICT convention. If so, the immediate effect, so far as LEGISLATURES. these two proposed new States are concerned, will be that we shall be able at once to give them all On the Order of the Day being read for the the power;, they say they desire to have after the resumption ofthe debate on the question-" That establishment of federation to the indefinite it would be to the advantage of the colony to future, but that we shall not, in the meantime, establish in the Southern, Central, and Northern give them any larger power which might be districts separate legislative andexecutiveauthori­ prejudicial to the interests of the rest of Aus­ ties with full powers of legi~lation and govern­ tralia. The Government recognise also, that ment, so far as regards matters of local concern ; at the present time United Queensland stands but that matters of general concern, including as a trustee for the whole of Australia .. of the the administration of the public debt, should Northern part of the eastern seaboard, and that remain under the control of one legislature and they owe duties to the rest of Australia in that re­ one executive, having jurisdiction over the whole spect. I should be very sorry indeed, and I think of the present colony of Queensland until the most of us would be, to do anything that may in establi8hment of an Australian Federation, when future cause a fight between the North and their functions should pass to the legislative and South of Australia. There is no present reason executive authorities of the federation"-- existing for it, and no present difficulty; but such The PREMIER said: Mr. Speaker,-l am a difficulty may easily occur. At any rate, it going to move that this Order of the Day stand is a difficulty that ought not to be lost sight an Order of the Day for Tuesday next, to take of by those who take a statesmanlike view its place amongst Government business, and in of the position. Holding these views, the doing so I wish to make a l'vlinisterial statement. Government have brought forwarcl this proposal. Last evening I was asked to state what were the The matter has not yet been properly discussed, intentions of the Government with respect to nor am I prepared to say in detail what is the this matter. I take this opportunity of stating best scheme that can be adopted ; but the general the intentions of the Government; and I will nature D,nd objects of what we have proposed I 1108 Establishment of [ASSEMBLY.] District Legislatures. have endeavoured a little more fully to indicate. not be defined now - to come to an under­ What I wish to add, Mr. Speaker, is this : that standing which will give to the Northern and the Government desire, to the fullest extent, Central and Southern portiom of the colony to assist in the development of the Northern powers of autonomous government, which will be portion of the colony, and the Central portion all they would claim for the future, after federa­ .also, npon the line:> that the peopln of thof·e parts tion. In the mnntime we shall avoid placing of thecolonydc·"ire for themselves. But in so doing any additional difficulties in the way of federa­ we wish to work with them in a friendly manner ; tion, and make friends of old enemies, and also, I do not mean that the representatives of those por­ I am sure, advance to a very great extent the tions should support any Government sitting on general interests of the colony. I have made these benches. This is a matter entirely apart this statement now because, as I said here last from what may be called party politics. I say that night, I will not bring this matter on until I have we de wire that, whatever Government may be sit­ "rranged with hon. gentlemen oppc"'ite and a ting here, we may work with the members repre­ convenient time has arriverl. If we cannot senting the people of those parts of the colony, in a agree upon a convenient time I will 1:1ot friendly way, desiring to give effect to the wishes bring it on at all. I have made this state­ of the people in those parts. That cn,nnot be ment now in order that hon. members of this done unless we wcrk together in a friendly way. House, a.nd the people generally, may consider If, Sir, it is to be in future, and as long during the present session how far it is possible as we remain a united Queensland, as it for ns to work together in friendship to achieve has been in the past, that every effort that is results that have nothing to do with party poli· made by the Government to meet the views of tics as treated inside this House. I now move the Northern people is to be regarded, not as a that the Order of the Day be postponed until friendly act, but as a fresh act of hostility and Tuesday next. animosity, then there is no hope. I have frequently said to myself that I was becoming The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN said : Mr. tired of trying to help the people of the North Speaker,-I recogni'~·e the importance of the when every fre,,h effort of mine was regarded statement just made by the Premier. At the as a fresh act of hostility. That has been the same time I must say that I think the hon. case in the past undoubtedly, and I ask gentleman is slightly mistaken, not in the fact that that may cease- that the representa· but in the inference, when he states that every tives of the Northern part of the colony will proposition which he has made has been met by recognise and accept as honest the statement of a feeling of hostility on this side, meaning, the Government, that they do desire to of course, by the members representing Northern work with them and help them to give constituencies. Now, there is some truth in effect so far as we possibly can to the that statement. The statement itself is correct; wishes of the people. I ask them once but the inference is untrue, because the proposi­ more to do it, and if they will not, if they will tions made by the hon. gentleman have always persist in regarding the Government for the come too late. The hon. gentleman knows that in time being in this House as a natural enemy, and the history of politics in e' ary country the proper regarding all their efforts, however well meant, time should be struck for making any proposi­ as being simply acts of hostility towards them­ tion whateHr. He knows that if it is made too then I say that I will give np the task of attempt­ soon, or if it is made too late, it falls barren to the ing to meet them. I will not Wf

The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN: However, I leader of the Government-and the hon; member am quite prepared, on behalf of the Northern . for Townsville has acquiesced in them-that the members representing the separation party, to whole sub} et will be discussed when the matter give the fullest consideration to the di"cussion of comes on again. the question at some time convenient for this House. Mr. BLACK: Mr. Speaker,-I shall not continue my remarks, but I would again ask the HoNOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! Premier if he will positively arrange that some Mr. ARCHER said: Mr. Speaker,-I shall day this session-or two days if necessary-shall not detain the House for more than a single be set apart for this discussion to be fully gone into. moment. Of course when we come to discuss That is a reasonable request to make. At auy this question it will be of great ad vantage to us rate, the proposal emanated from the Government to know more intimately than the resolution itself, and not from our side of the House, itself sets forth what are the concessions because the Northern party-and I believe the which the Premier thinks can be made to Central party also, judging from what the hon. the different districts. It would be of great member for Rockhampton said-are quite pre­ ad vantage to us in discussing the question pared to discuss this question as laid down by the if the Premier would open the debate, and Premier in all its bearings ; but we d~sire that enlarge more particularly on the scheme in his it should come off this session, and not be. mind, because this is a matter that cannot be postponed indefinitely until next session, in order devuloped in a single day. 'When the debate that the home Government will be led to think comes on it will be of advantage if the hon. there is something fresh intended which will lead gentleman can tell us what will be the powers to a settlement of this matter. The Northern given to the different districts-for example, in party are quite prepared to discuss it at any time regard to the land ; and we shall then be better the Premier likes, but they desire that a promise able to discue~ it than with the bare resolution should be given that the· discu·-sion should take before us. place this session, and not be left over until next year. Mr. BLACK said: Mr. Speaker,-I am verv pleased with the remarks made by the Premier, Mr. DONALDSONsaid: Mr. Speaker,-! do but I would like him to give some assmance that not desire to offer many remarks at this time, this debate is likely to take place this session. but I was certainly very pleased to hear the speech of the Premier this evening. I can only The PREMIER: I have said that it depends give this assnrance-that anything I can do to entirely on the other side. \Ve shall consult as."ist him to arrive at a fair nnder,tanding upon them. this matter, and to have it fairly discussed in Mr. BLACK : It is all very well to say that. this House, I certainly shall do. I shall give All I can say is to repeat the assurance given by him every assistance I can. More than that, the leader of the Northern party-the hon. of course, I cannot say at the present member for Townsville-that theNorthern party moment. I know it is a very big subject will only be too glad to have the debate as soon as -one of the biggest subjects this House possible; but there is no doubt that in the can have to discuss, because it goes one better opinion of a great many Northerners, after the than the proposal we had before the House last remarks made by the Premier, and after the night, inasmuch as it deals with the Central very significant division we had last night, it separation as well as J'\ orthern separation. I looks like a peace-at-any-price policy. ' can see, as I have seen all along, that there are The MINIST.F:R FOR RAILWAYS : That many difficulties in the way of the proposal of is too bad. That is very untair. the hon. gentleman, but there may be a way of getting over those difficulties, and of assisting Mr. BLACK : I am not making that remark in putting the different portions of the colony in a in an offensive way at all, but I think the better pm;ition than they are at the present time. division last night was a most significant division. I am not goiflg to disguise this fact, that when The PREMIER: If we put our heads together the speeches and the division go home to the we can do it right enough. Imperial Government they will have a very Mr. DONALDSON: I can assm·e the hon. marked effect indeed. gentleman that I am not, because I am sitting The PREMIER : Hear, hear ! on this side of the House, always criticising the action of the Government. '\\Thenever I think Mr. BLACK: Well, I am not going to refer they are doing what is fair and reasonable, I am to any particular speaker on the other side ; but I always prepared to give them credit for it, and know that the debate that took place last night I am willing to give them all the a'\·dstance in and on the previous day, when we discussed the my power, and I shall do so on this occasion. same subject, was certainly very strongly in favour of the formation of a new colony in the Question put and pas3ed. North of Queensland. MARRIED WO::Y1EN'S PROPERTY BILL. The MINISTJm FOR RAILWAYS : It COKSIDERATION JN COli!;IIITTEE OF LEGISL.I.TIVE was all on one side last night. \Ve were asked COUKCIL'S MESSAGE OF 21ST OCTOBER. not to speak. Mr. BLACK: I do not know who asked the On the motion of the PREMIER, the Speaker hon. gentleman not to speak, but I know that left the chair, and the House wemt into com­ several leading members of the Government did mittee to consider the me" -age of the Legislative speak, and one of the l1i1ost prominent-the Council. Minister for l\Iines-avowed himself a deter­ On clause 12-"lVIarried \Voman as an exe­ mined separationist. He said he alwayd had cutrix or trustee"- been; but he would not come under the present ThP PREMIER said the Committee had pro· flag. \Vill any hon. gentleman read that posed to make variou~ amendments in that BilL speech-- The first important amendment was a new clause The SPEAKER said: The hon. gentleman is which nmv stood as clanse 12. That clause, as debating the whole question again. The ques­ they proposed it, was a transcript of the clause tion before the House at present is-That this in the English Act. He was not aware at the Order of the Day be postponed till Tuesday time he had charge of the Bill before that there had next, I understood from the remarks of the been serious criticism in some text books written 1110 Ma'Prierl Women's P'Pope'Pty Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Patents, Designs, Etc., Bilt. in England on the meaning of the clause. The was not worth while quarrelling about it, and he Legislative Council proposed to amend the clause, move~ that they do not insist upon their amend­ so as to get rid of the difficulty raised by those ment m clause 17. criticisms, and it now read as follows :- Question put and passed. "A married woman who is an executrix or adminis­ tratrix, alone or jointly with any persons or person, On clause 22-"JYiaintenance of children"­ other than her husband, of the estate of anv deceased person, ora trustee, alone or jointly as afore::laid, of any The PREMIER said the only other clause on investments or property subject to any trust. shall and which there was an important difference of may in that character, without her husband, have and opinion was clause 20, now 22. The Legislative exercise all rights and execute and perform all powers Council disagreed to the amendment of the Com­ and functions, and be subject to all liabilities, as if 8-he were unmarried.'' mittee in that clause, "because there was no liability for the maintenance of grandchildren He moved that the amendments of the Legis­ under the law of Queensland." He was not pre­ lative Council in the clause be agreed to. pared to dispute that; he knew nothing whatever Question put and passed. about it, and hadnothad time to find out. But that didnotbyanymeans cover the whole of the amend­ On clause 14-" Moneys payable under policy ment. The Committee proposed that a married of assurance not to form part of the estate of the woman having separate property should be subject 'insured"- to the same liability for the maintenance of her The PRE1YIIER said the next important children as the husband was subject to for the amendment was in clause 12, now printed as maintenance of her children. That might clause 14. The Legislative Council were of perhaps be taken to mean that if she had separate opinion that the clause was inconsistent with property, the liability of maintenance should be the provisions of the Life Insurance Act of 1871J, transferred from her husband to her, and they had and they proposed to amend it first by inserting therefore added the words "but nothing in this the words "the 3rd sectiun of the Life Insu­ Act shall relieve her husband from any liability rance Act of 1879 is hereby repealed." They imposed upon him by law to maintain her chil­ further proJ;osed to omit from the 1st paragr:;cph dren or grandchildren," which was disagreed the words "by virtue of the power of making to by the Legi.glative Council. The only reason contracts hereinbefore contained," and also to given was that there was no liability for the say that "policy" should mean a policy of life maintenance of grandchildren under the law of assurance. He did not know that a policy upon Queensland. Of course that did not touch the a life could be any other than a life assurance point. He therefore proposed that the Com­ policy, but it was not worth quarrelling about. mittee insist upon their amendment so far as it Then they proposed to insert the words "or any was contained in the words "but nothing in this other life in which she has an insurable interest, Act shall relieve her husband from any liability or enter into a contract for future endowments imposed upon him by law to maintain her by way of annuity or otherwise." Some people children," and do not insist upon the remainder might say that that was not strictly a life policy. of their amendments in that clause. Then they added the words "Provided that the protection of the second section of the Life Question put and passed. Insurance Act of 1879 shall extend to any policy On the motion of the PREMIER, the House bona fide effected by a married woman upon her resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported that the own life. " There was no reason why a married Committee insi8t upon one amendment to which woman should not stand in the same position as the Legislative Council have disagreed; do not any other insurer when she effected a policy insist upon the other amendment to which upon her own life. The Council also proposed the Legislative Council have disagreed; and agree that the paragraph entitling creditors in any ca'e to the Legislative Council's amendments in the where a policy was effected with intent to amendment of the Legislative Assembly to which defraud them to receive out of the moneys pay­ they hstd agreed with amendments. able under the policy a sum equal to certain pre­ miums, should be amended by adding the words The PREMIER moved that the Bill be re­ " with simple interest thereon at the rate of turned to the Legislative Council, with a mes­ six per cent. per annum." He saw no objection sage intimating that the Legislative Assembly- to that; and he moved that the Legislative " Insist on so much of the amendment in clause 20 Council's amendments in that clause be agreed (22 as now printed) as is contained in the words 'but to. nothing in this Act shall relieve her husband from any liability imposed upon him by law to maintain her Question put and passed. children.' On clause 15-" Remedies of married women "Because those words appear to be necessary to re­ for protection and security of separate pro­ move doubts whether the clause would not otherwise relieve a husband altogether from the liability to main­ perty"- tain his wife's children in the cases specified.

The PREMIER said that in clause 13, or, as H Do not. insist upon the remainder of their amend .. it now stood, 15, the Legislative Council had ments in that clause. ~ retaliated on the Committee. The Committee had "Do not 1nsist on the othel' amendments to which changed the words "feme sole" "into "unmarried the Legislative Council have disagreed. woman," and the Legislative Council now pro­ H And agree to the Legsilative Council's amendmeitts posed to substitute the word " wrong" for in the amendments of the Legislative Assembly to which "turt." He recognised that it was a very they have agreed with amendments/' proper rebuke for the Committee, who, while professing to be purists, had not carried out Question put and passed. their own doctrine.' He moved that the amend­ PATENTS, DESIGNS, AND TRADE ments in that clause be agreed to. MARKS (AMENDMENT) BILL. Question put and passed. On the Order of the Day being read for the On clause 17-"Husband and wife competent consider,tion of this Bill in committee, witnesses in criminal proceedings"- The PREMIER said there was an amendment The COLONIAL SECRETARY said: Mr. in clause 15, now 17. There was a question of Speaker,-I beg to move that you do now leave grammatical construction in that clause. He the chair. still thought their own grammar the best, but it Question put and passed. Local Works Loans Act [24 OcTOBER.] o/1880 Amendment Bill. 1111

COMMITTEE. about a fortnight ago, announced to the House The preamble was postponed. that to meet thP financial position of munici­ Clauses 1 to 23, inclusive, passed as printed. palities and divisional boards there would be some concessions made with regard to existing loans On clause 24-" Additions to trade marks"­ to local authorities. vVe have examined the Mr. MORRY said he should like to know existing loans and have come to certain con­ whether there was any provision in the Bill by clusions which are embodied in the Bill now which a person who wished to obtain a patent before the House. The ~Teat bulk of the loans which was not in use in the colony, and which could not be touched, because the relief that could the owner of the patent was unwilling should be be given would be very little. Hon. members used unless he was paid a very exorbitant pri~e understand that by the Local \Vorks Loans Act for it, could obtain it without being compelled to of 1880 provision is made for payment of the pay such exorbitant price. Recently he had interest every year, and the payment of a certain occasion to make an application for the use of a proportion of the principal. The principle upon patent, patented in the colony, but which was which we have gone in order to relieve the not at present in use in the colony, and the sum local authorities, i" to extend the period o£ the he was asked for the use of the patent was quite loans existing at the present time. vYe found prohibitive. It could not be used in the colony that we can g·i ve a good deal of relief with regard unless the exorbitant terms of the owner were to loans for works of the fourth, fifth, and complied with. sixth classes ; but not for those of the first, The COLONIAL SECRETARY •aid that second, or third classes. To extend a loan was provided for in section 25 of the principal from forty to fifty years would give very little Act, which stated- relief, only about 7s. per cent. in the course of " If on the petition of any person interested it is a ye'1r. \Vhat we have done is this: Loans proved to the Governor in Council that by reason of the which have been granted for five years shall be default of a patentee to grant licenses on reasonable extended to ten years, and those granted for ten terms- and fourteen years shall be extended to twenty­ ( a) The patent is not being worked in the colony; one years. That grants relief in the l'ayment of or principal equal to, speaking from memory, about (b) The reasonable requirements of the public with £20,000. It does not embarrass the Trf'asury at respect to the invention cannot be supplied; or all, because we have only to look to the security (c) Any person is prevented fr01n working or using for the loans. vVe have provided for the pay­ to the best advantage an invention of which he is possessed; ment of the interest, and simply extend the period for repayment of the principal. All the the Governor in Council may ordel' the patentee to grant licenses on such terms as to the amount of loans granted for five yc: .. trs will be sup­ royalties, security for payment, or otherwise, as the posed to have been granted for ten years, Governor in Council, having rcgn,rd to the nature of the and all those granted for ten and fourteen invention and the circumsta.nces of the case, may deem years will be supposed to have been granted just, and any such order may be enfo1·ct~d by mandam,us. '' for twenty-one yettrs, and the balance of the Clause passed as printed. loan r0maining unpairl, 1 necessary, it would onlv we have gone on; there is no other in the Bill. lead to confusion. " The hon. member for :B'ortilude Valley, the mayor Mr. POWERS said that before the Bill of Brisbane, has, I believe, objected that he passed through Committee, he had one remark has not seen the Bill, but it has been talked to make. Anyone rer"ding Hansa1·d to-morrow about enough, and it has not taken me five might imagine that ther8 was no Opposition minutes to explain the whole thing. It is simply present-that they had all gone to the theatre, the result of what the Chief Secretary said the perhaps. But, as the Colonial Secretary stated other night, in order to relieve the local authori­ on the second reading, the Bill was the work of ties, and it will not in any way effect the consoli­ the late Government, and it had been intro­ dated revenue. I move that the Bill be now duced in another place where great attention read a second time. had been paid to it. Both the late and the present Ministry were satisfied with the Bill, :Mr. POWERS said: Mr. Speaker,-The Bill and that accounted for the very short time it had has not been long in the hands of hon. members, taken to pass through Committee. He approved but it has been mentioned before, and the only of the amendment proJ;osed in clause 33. thing I am surprised at is that it does not go further than loang of the fourth, fifth, and sixth Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, classes. Of course it is almost impossible to put and passed. benefit municipalities by extending forty years' Preamble passed as printed. loans beyond that time. They only pay £5 The House resumed, and theCHArmrA~ reported 1Gs. Sd. per cent., and any extension would be the Bill with amendments. no great benefit to them, unless you lowered the The report was adopted, and the third reading interest to 4 per cent. Of course that would be of the Bill made an Order o£ the Day for Tues­ a great concession. day next. The COLO~IAL TREASURER: Quite so. LOCAL WORKS LOANS ACT OF 1880 Y on mi6 ht relieve them from payments alto­ gether. AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. POWERS : That is a different thing alto­ SECOND READING. gether, :Mr. Spettker. The large loans consist The COLO~IAL TREASURER said: Mr. chiefly of the first, second, and third classes ; Speaker,-This is a very short Bill. Hon. mem­ but they are not dealt with by the Bill. The bers will remember that the Chief Secretary, first class consists of waterworks, wharves, jetties, il12 Local Works Loans Act [ASSEMBLY.] ofl880 Amendment Bill.

and other permanent and reprodnctiYe under­ ten years loans should be extended to thirty takings, constructed of stone, brick, concrete, years. The Colonial Treasurer must bear in or iron, or a combination of the whole or any of mind that the local authorities here have no these materials. They are not altered. The second power to borrow outside of the Government, and I class consists of permanent works for drainage hope he will never sanction borrowing outside vr sanitary purposes; if constructed of stone, the Government. I was very much pleased brick, concrete, or iron, or a combination of the when I read the account of a discussion in whole or any of these materials. They are not this House which took place in my absence to altered. The third consists of tramways, bridges, find that the leader of the Opposition also culverts, fords, or crossings, if constructed has an objection to local authoritiP;; being allowed in the way already mentioned, and perma­ to go to the London money market. I was nent works for drainage or sanitary pur­ a] ways opposed to that, and I always shall be poses other than those before mentioned. until I am convinced that my opinion is wrong. They are not altered; so that municipctli­ I say that the money market for local authorities ties will not benefit to any great extent by the should be the Government, and the Government extension. The fourth class consists of buildings alone. As far as the Brisbane municipality is constructed of stone, brick, concrete, or iron, or a concerned, our short-period loans amount to combination of these materials; the fifth, of about £10,000, but this Bill will apply to only roads properly cleared, drained, graded, and about half that amount, because the terms in formed not less than half a chain wide at forma­ some instances have nearly expired. I am not tion level, bridges, wharves, jetties, culverts, prepared with the figures, because I had no idea fords, and buildings substantially constructed that the Bill was coming on to-day. of hardwood timber; and the sixth, of roads Mr. DONALDSON: The amount is £27,000. newly cleared, drained, graded and formed, but not metalled, and all log or plank roads, Mr.lVIcMASTER: I think that is the amount. and 0ther works of a temporary character. I say that if you allow the local authorities to So that really, when the local authorities CDme go to the London money market you will no to make calculations, they will find that, instead longer know the amount of the national debt, of being greatly benefited, they will not be bene­ and I was surprised that the hon. member fited to any great extent, but will have to pro­ for South Brisbane said, the other night, that vide almost as mu~h money every year as the the money borrowed by local authorities in the leader of the Opposition stated. As far as I am London market did not increase the indebtedness concerned, I do not object to the Bill on account per head of the population. of the loans dealt with, but on account of those Mr. MORRY : I said that the money bor­ not dealt with, and I hope that when we con­ rowed in that way by the local authorities in sider the Bill in committee the Government will Victoria did not appear in the general debt of see their way to give some assistance in respect the colony. to some other loans on account of which heavy payments have to be made. Mr. McMASTER: I say that none of the money borrowed in that way is reckoned in the Mr. McMASTER said: Mr. Speaker,-! sug­ national debt, and consequently they do not show gested to the Colonial Treasurer before he moved so much indebtedne8• per head. Our national the second reading that it was rather hasty to debt shows the amount the whole colony owes, take the second reading to-day. The Bill was but it is not so in the other colonies. In those only placed on the table yesterday, and it was colonies there are some millions borrowed by local by a n1ere accident that I got a copy from the authorities, and that money is not reckoned in Postmaster-General last night. It did not come the money borrowed by the Government; and among my papers this morning. that is why our indebtedness shows more per Mr. DONALDSON: It came with mine. head than theirs. I noticed the other day that a corporation in New Zealand failed to pay Mr. McMASTER: I know some hon. mem· interest on their loans. bers got copies, but I did not get one among my papers. I looked among them for the Bill this An HONOURABLE ME;\IBER : That is a harbour morning, because I wanted to take it to the trmt. town hall and consult the municipal officers Mr. McMASTER : At any rate they failed with respect to its provisions. I may say that to pay interest, and the bondholders requested the Brisbane municipality is the largest bor­ the Government to step in and secure them. rower of any local authority in the colony. And that is what would occur here. If a local authority borrowed in the London market and An HONOURABLE MEMBER: Hear, hear ! failed to pay the interest, the bondholders would Mr. MoMASTER : And we pay for our bor­ apply to the Government here to step in and secure rowing; and so far as I can see it is the best them. Now, why I should like the term extended investment the Government have in the colony. to thirty years is because the Government make a It is a better investment than railway construc­ very good thing out of the local authorities by tion. This is a Bill of great importance to local lending them money. I believe during the last authorities. \Ve were told last week, when our ten years the corporation of Brisbane have paid system of rating was altered, that this Bill back nearly £37,000 to the redemption fund. would give such relief that the local authorities The Government have the use of that money, would not be in any way harassed. There and can relend it at 5 per cent. They have is a thin House now, the only local authorities borrowed money for thirty or forty years. They represented being those of Bri'"'bane, South should not make a profit out of the local authori­ Brisbane, Ipswich, and Toowoomba, and I think ties. They should certainly cover expenses on the the question ought to be discussed in a full money borrowed in London, but the local authori­ House when the various local authorities are ties should beableto borrow at cost price. \Vepay well represented. This Bill deals with short 1?, per cent. more for the money than the Go­ loans ; but it will scarcely touch any of the vernment do ; and I think, therefore, the Go­ loans of the Brisbane municipality, because our vernment make a very good bargain out of short loans have nearly all run out. \Ve local authorities. I spoke to the Chief Secretary have £140,000 borrowe'd from the Govern­ of the late Government on the same subject; ment, and, as far as I can remember, this and I have consulted every local authority in the Bill touches loans amounting to £·10, 000. I colony, and, with two exceptions, we agree that do not wish to touch the long-period loans­ we should ask the Government to reduce the rate those of thirty or forty years-but I think the of interest on future loans. I believethat~per cent, Zocal Works Loans Act [24 OcToBER.] of 1880 Amendment Bill. 1113 ought to cover all expenses, and that reduction Mr. ALAND said: Mr. Speaker,-I almost would be a great relief to many local authorities, think that a Bill ought to be passed preventing andcertainlytoBrisbaue. I thinkaddingfiveyears the mayor of Brisbane from being a member of on to the term of the loan is a mere bHgatelle, this House. and it should be extended further. On ten-year loans we get ten years additional, and in the Mr. McMASTER: It would take more than other cases six and five years. Some of the you to prevent it. loans of thei!e local authorities are half paid back, Mr. ALAND : I do not intend to try and and they therefore will get very little benefit. prevent it; but really for the last fortnight we So far as the Brisbane corporation is concerned, have heard so much about Brisbane that I am it will benefit us to the extent of about £1,700 quite sure the House is sick of the subject. a year, but this Bill does not deal with the loans Listening to the hon. member for Fortitude we shall get in the future. V alley, one would think there was no other The COLONIAL TREASURER : It only place under heaven than Brisbane. It is deals with the balances clue now to the Govern­ Brisbane this, Brisbane that, and Brisbane ment. everything. No wonder m embel'S are really tired of these local authority Bills. The hon. member Mr. McMASTER : If we got a new loan next seems afraid that this Bill will go through corn­ week, we could only get it on the old terms? mitteeto-night. I presume the Government do not The COLONIAL TREASURER: Quite so. intend anything of the sort. There will be ample timefortherepresentatives ofthe North and South Mr. McMASTER: Well, I think that will be Brisbane Councils and even the representatives very little benefit to the local authorities, and oftheToowoomba Councilto wellstudythematter especially the municipalitie,. At all event,, I before the Bill gets into committee. I am not confes,; I am disappointed with this Bill, because altogether satisfied with the amount of relief it only deals with the past and not with the which the Bill is supposed to give. Still I see future. thoroughly that it give< a large amount of relief. The COLONIAL TREASURER: That was Now I am spe&king merely of the municipality all that was promised. of Toowoomba. Our chief loan is for waterworks Mr. McMASTER : vV e were promised that a purposes, and extends over forty years. I could Bill would be brought in to extend the term of hardly have the impertinence to ask the Govern­ repayment of loans. ment to extend that term, especially as waterworks The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Present ar<;> enabled to pay their way from the revenue loans. received. Even the extension of the fourth and fifth classes to twenty-one years I find on looking Mr. McMASTER : I would not contradict through the Act is a great relief. The payment the Colonial Secretary, but the way it struck me under one head will he £10 a year, and on was that it would deal with all loans. What the other £7. There is a considerable difference benefit will that be to the municipality of Brisbane between £7 and £10 a year when you are dealing five years hence? None whatever. Our loans with the repayment of a large loan. That will have run out. will be some relief in regard to future loans. Mr. DONALDSON: You will have £1,500 a I am not prepared to state whether it is a good year less to pay at present. thing that the Government should restrict this Mr. ::\lcMASTER : That soon runs out. I Bill to existing loans. Speaking now, I think it am speaking of Brisbane, because I know most is a good idea that the Government should about Brisbane. There are representatives of restrict it to the present loans, as I do not local authoritie" who can defend themselves. · think it is wise that municipalities should have too great a facility for borrowing money. An HoNOURABLE MEMBER : vVhat about South There is a sort of a feeling in the minds Brisbane? of pe1)ple living in these colonies, that if they Mr. McMASTER: The Treasurer will watch can get into debt they are doing a good South Brisbane in the future, mark my words. thing. Unfortunately, that has been the feeling 'l'here is no necessity for watching North Bris­ that I have had, and I thought that if I could bane ; out I am quite sure the Colonial Treasurer get into dn swept away, the The present Bill, I consider, does not give the municipalities may have a right to come down relief that the local authorities expFcted when a upon the Government ; and then if I can assist Relief Bill was promised. I myself expected the hon. member for Fortitude Valley to squeeze more, and I am quite certain other representatives the Government and make them a little more of loeal authorities also expected longer terms, liberal I will do so. and that the Bill would be extended to future as Mr. BARLOW said: Mr. Speaker,-I do not well as to present loans. find that this Bill gives the relief that was 1114 Local Works "loans Act [ASSEMBLY.] of 1880 Amendment Biil. expected, but I will submit it to the mayor of and has said that what applies to private Ipswich, and hear what he has to say about it. individuals applies to public bodies. In fact, I I trust that the terms may be consolidated in think public bodies are more likely to exercise such a W;ty as to afford more relief. I expected their borrowing powers than private individuals to find considerably more relief in the Bill than are, and when a number of people are together they I do. will not always be discreet. They say, "We will Mr. DONALDSON said: Mr. Speaker,-! have this work done, it only means so much a have a word to say upon this matter. I can year upon our rates," and they are tempted quite understand that ;;ome local authorities to borrow. But the time always comes round for will feel a little dis~ppointed in this measure, the repayment of the loan, and the interest upon it although I am glad that the Government have is a heavy item. Local authorities must be very not been more liberal, because I think if there is careful to see that they do not get into such a one mistake greater than another that the Govern­ condition that they will find their loans too great ment could make it is in giving too great facilities a burden upon them. In speaking some time for borrowing. That liberty is detrimental ago, I pointed out, frmn memory, how the local to the best inter·ests of the municipalities of the authorities about Brisbane would be affected by colony, because insten.d of relying upon the theextraamountofrates that woul<;l be necessary to rates they can levy, there is generally too grPat makeupfor what they were losing in endowments. a desire to borrow. If the Government had I know that some hon. members, and more been more liberal, I am certain that the local particularly the hon. member for Fortitude authorities would find themselves in a worse V alley, were strongly under the impression position than they are in now. My experience of at the time the promise was made to bring the Treasury is that some municipalities in the in this Bill that there would not be such colony are too heavily in debt. I will not name a vast amount to be raid back on these loans. them ; but they borrowed when times were good The hon. member's statement to-night proves and their rates were coming in freely. But their to me that he honestly believed that a very rates have fallen off, and they find they have great relief would be afforded to the muni­ borrowed too much. If the Government had cipality of North Brisbane-I speak subject to been too liberal, it would not have acted correction-and I thought, from the interjection in the best intere,,ts of the rtttepayers, of the hon. member for \Voolloongabba, that he who would have their properties mortgaged also thought the same thing. for the repayment of this money in future. Mr. STEP HENS : No ; only the short loans. \Vhen the hon. member for Fortitude V alley was speaking, I said that the benefit that would be Mr. DONALDSON: I think the hon. member received by North Brisbane would amount to was under that impression, that even on the £1,370 a yeur ; but I find it would be a little short loans the amount of relief would amount over £1,100, and I make the correction now. to a much larger sum than it will be under this North Brisbane has £117,!145 borrowed on the Bill. I do not wish to do the hon. gentleman longer period, which will not be affected by the Bill any injustice, but that was certainly my im­ now before the.House, and only £27,744 borrowed pression. I dare say this matter will receive on the shorter period; and it is of course on the fullest consideration in committee. While that that the benefit will be received. The we are fair and liberal and just to the local benefit that will be received by Maryborough authorities, however, I think that it will be to will be only £425. I have had no time to their best interests if we do not err on the side of make up the figures for South Brisbane, but liberality. I find that they have borrowed £9,670 on Mr. STEPHENS said: Mr. Speaker,-! shall the longer period, and £37,748 on the shorter not refer in the remarks I am about to make to period. Of course there is a good deal to Suuth Brisbane, or North Brisbane, or to any be said on both sides of the question ; but particular municipulity. I shall rather refer to at the same time, I think Parliament should the general principles of the Bill and to the effect not be too liberal towards local authorities. it will have on the loans to the local authorities. They should extend to them such liberality as The money lent to the various local bodies is may be for their own good, but to go beyond lent under certain schedules. The Government that would be detrimental to the best interests of have different schedules for the time and the those municipalities, because they might be particular class of work for which the money tempted, iu prosperous times, to borrow money, is lent. They have also a schedule s~owing and the repayment would become a very heavy the amount of repayments for the different item by-and-by. The experience of Colonhil classes of loans, and for the different terms, and Treasurers will teach them to be more cautious in on looking at these schedules for a moment it future. Some loans have been granted upon what will be seen that on the long loans there will be was estimated to be excellent security; but I scarcely any saving. For instance, if a loan doubt very much whether the repayments will is for thirty years, and that period were ex­ be so punctual in future as they have been in the tended to forty years, the saving in the annual past, and I only hope that whatever Treasurer repayments would be only about 13s. 4d. may be in power he will not have to exercise his per annum on every £100, so that it would powers to recover the debts. Up to the present really be nothing at all. The only real time the repayments have come out of the endow­ saving will be on the loans for shorter periods. ments, but these endowments have been con­ The great bulk of the loans to divisional boards siderably reduced this year, and there is no are for five and ten years, the majority being for certainty that they wiil be extended for a ten years. According to my reading of the Bill, much longer period. I have said before, and I the ten years' loans will have the time for repay­ say it again, that I believe the first time the ment extended to twenty-one years. That is, if Colonial Tr<'::tsurer finds himself in an impecu­ a loan is granted for ten years, five of which nious condition, he will withdraw those endow­ have already expired, the remainmg payments ments altogether. Whilst it has been au easy will be extended over sixteen years. The remain­ matter in the past to secure the repayment ing portion of the loan will be divided by sixteen of the loans, it will not be FO easy in the future, in order tn get at the annual payments, and put and this House should look very carefully into down in the schedule for twenty-one year loans. the proposals made now. It is not, of course, At present for a ten years' loan the annual re­ desirable to give too much liberty to borrow. payment is £12 19s. per £100, but if the term is The hon. member for Toowoomba has spoken extended to twenty-one years the annual pay­ about the facilities for getting into debt, ments will only be £7 16s., thus effecting a Zocal Works Loans Act Amendment Bill. [24 OcTOBER.] AdJournment. 1115 saving of £5 3s. per annum on every £100 to future loans, and with that exception I can of the loan, and that is a very considerable gladly agree with the Bill. The relief granted saving. It will be seen from the list tbat to the electorate I represent will be very con­ the bulk of the loans to municipalities are siderable, but at the same time I must say for the longer term, on which the extension there are a great many very important works of time wili only effect a yearly saving, as I which are absolutely necessary, and which have said, of about 13s. 4d. on every £100. must be c-trried out in order that the health There are only a few loans for five years, and of the community may be protected. I want they are to divisional boards, and on those loans to know how these works are to be carried there will be a yearly saving of .£10 6s. on every out, unleHs we are able to go to the Government £100, which is a very large saving. Many of to obtain the money. Hon. members say that we the loans to municipalities are for water­ should not be allowed to go to the London works, and do not really come under the market and borrow for ourselves, but that we local authoritie8 so much; but looking through should borrow from the Government. We have the matter carefully, and through the schedules, asked, as I have said, for £68,000 for South Bris­ I am persuaded that the Government have bane in order to carry out works which we granted all the relief they reasonably can give. believe are absolutely necessary, and which the I understood the hon. member for Burrum to Central Board of Health will carry out for us if state that the twenty-one years should have been we do not get the money for that purpose. In extended to thirty years; 'but the Government that connection, therefore, I think the pro­ do not propose to touch the twenty-one year loans, posal of the Government does not go far the extension of which would give but little relief, enough. It is a very serious thins- to limit as it would only amount to £1 6s. per annum on the borrowing powers of municipalities like the every £100 borrowed. There are very few loans, city of Brisbane, South Brisbane, and other however, for twenty-one years. I am thoroughly large towns. I quite admit that there are muni­ opposed to the local authorities going to the cipalities in the colony not so populous and far London market and borrowing for themselves. I away from large centres of population, over consider they should borrow from the Govern­ which it is necessarv for the Government to ment, because the credit of the colony is really exercise complete control, but I do think th11t at stake. large centres of population which are progressing Mr. MORRY said: Mr. Speaker,-My prin­ very rapidly should have extended power granted cipal objection to this Bill, and my only objec­ to them. tion to it, in fact, is that the proposal of the Mr. GRIMES said: Mr. Speaker,--I was Government does not extend to future loans. I surprised to hear the two hon. members repre­ think that this will greatly curtail the borrowing senting the municipalities of North Brisbane powers of local authorities. and South Brisbane express disappointment at the provisions of this Bill. They are the largest The COLONIAL TREASURER: You mean borrowers from the Government among. all their borrowing propensities. the municipalities in the colony, and as they Mr. MORRY: It will curtail their borrowing have mostly borrowed on long terms, they propensities and their borrowing powers as well. do not of course participate in the benefits I 'cannot help remembering that we in South conferred by this Bill in the same way as those Brisbane have made an application to the Trea­ local authorities, which have borrowed on shorter surer for a loan of .£68,000, and, of course, we terms. This Bill will afford considerable relief expect that before long he will comply with our to divisional boards, as it extends the five-year request, and we are, therefore, anxious for an loans to ten years, and the ten-year loans to extension of time for future loans as well as for twenty-one years. Divisional boards have not existing loans. I think, with the hon. member done much of the durable work for which the for W oolloongabba, that the proposal of the longer term loans can be obtained, and I think Government, in so far as it affects loans for five this measure will be regarded with satisfaction and ten years, is just about as liberal as we could by many of the boards. I am glad that there is reasonably expect. So far as my constituency is no provision in the Bill with regard to loans concerned, we shall save something like £3,000 which may be obtained in future. I do not see per annum under the present proposal. I do why there should be. The Bill is introduced in not wish in any way to refer to the borough of order to make up for the reduction of the South Brisbane, but I must say that that endowment to local authorities, and I cannot see borough has been dragged very much in the mire any necessity for extending the period for the recently iu this House. During my absence, I am repayment of future loans. If that were done, it sorry to say, the hon. member for J!'ortitude would encourage boards to borrow to a greater V alley, especially, has spoken in very disparaging extent than they do now, and, as a rule, they terms of South Brisbane. borrow quite enough. I certainly do not approve of the large debts some municipalities and divi­ Mr. McMASTER: What did you say in your sions are accumulating. maiden speech about North Brisbane? Question-That the Bill be now read a second Mr. MORRY: I very much regret that a time-put and passed. public body of men, of which I have the honour at the present time to be the head, should have The committal of the Bill was made an Order been spoken of in the terms in which that body of the Day for Tuesday next. was spoken of by the hon. member. That hon. member has been a member of a local authority ADJOURNMENT. for a number of years, and he ought to have had The PREMIER s11id : Mr. Speaker,-I move more consideration for a number of gentlemen that this House do now adjourn. On Tuesday occupying similar positions in a neighbouring we propose to deal with the second reading of authority. the Bills introduced yesterday. I expect that Mr. McMASTER : 'What consideration had the discussion on them will be very brief ; !'-nd you for us when I was absent? not later than 7 o'clock we propose to go mto Committee of Supply. Mr. MORRY: I think I said nothing but what was correct, and I can justify what I said. Question put and passed. The only objection I have to the Government The House adjourned at five minutes to 9 proposal is, as I have said, that it does not extend o'clock.