The French Revolution

VS. The Russian Revolution

A Radio Discussion by HERMAN FINER LOUIS GOTTSCHALK and JULIAN TOWSTER

718TH BROADCAST IN COOPERATION WITH THE NATIONAL BROADCASTING COMPANY

NUMBER 507 * * * DECEMBER 7, 19.47 Around the Round Table . ..

HERMAN FINER, professor of political science at the University of Chicago, studied at the City of London College, the London School of Economics, and the University of London; and he has received his B.Sc., M.Sc., and D.Sc. degrees. In I924 and from 1932 to I933 he studied in the United States under the Rockefeller Foundation. From 1920 to 1942 he was associated with the London School of Economics; and he served as examiner for the University of London. He was also director of research for study of the Tennessee Valley Authority. He is the author of many books, among which are: Foreign Governments at Work (I922); Representative Government and a Parliament of Industry (1924); British Civil Service (I927 and I937); The Theory and Practice of Modern Government(I932); Mussolini's Italy (I935); The TVA (1944); The Road to Reaction (1945); and America's Destiny (I947).

Louis GoTTSCHALK, professor of modern history at the University of Chi­ cago, received his A.B., M.A., and Ph.D. degrees from Cornell University and later was associated with the department of history there. He has taught at the University of Illinois and the University of Louisville and since 1925 has been associated with the University of Chicago. Professor Gottschalk is the author of Jean Paul Marat: A Study in Radicalism (I937), which has also appeared in French translation; The Era of the French Revolution (I929); Lafayette Comes to America (1935); Lafayette Joins the American Army (1937); Lady-in-Waiting: The Romance of Lafayette and Aglae de Hunolstein (1939); Lafayette and the Close of the American Revolution (I942); and The Letters of Lafayette to Washington (I945).

JuLIAN TowsTER, professor of political science at the University of Chi­ cago, studied at the University of Chicago, where he received his Ph.B., J.D., and Ph.D. degrees. From I942 to I943 he was a political analyst for the United States Department of Justice. He became associated with the Office of Strategic Services, where he served as a social science analyst during I944 and 1945· Before joining the faculty of the University of Chicago this fall, he was a section chief of the Department of State. Mr. Towster has traveled and studied widely abroad, in­ cluding eastern Europe, Russia, the Near East, and Great Britain. He is the author of the forthcoming book, Political Power in the U.S.S.R. (in press).

The opinion of each RoUND TABLE speaker is his own and in no way involves the responsibility of either the University of Chicago or theNational Broadcasting Company. The supplementary information in this pamphlet has been developed by staff research and is not to be considered as representing the opinions of the RoUND TABLE speakers. The University of Chicago RoUND TABLE. Published weekly. IO cents a copy; full-year subscriPtion, 52 is­ sues, three dollars. Published by the University of Chicago, Chicago 37, Illinois. Entered as second-class matter January 3, I939, at the post office at Chicago, Illinois, under the Act of March 3, I879. COPYRIGHT, THE UNIVERSITY OF CIDCAGO, 1947 The French Revolution vs. The Russian Revolution * MR. FINER: As Tom Paine said, What is this tremendous convul­ when the world seemed to be crashing sion which puts France on the rack, around his head, "These are the lashes all Europe, pulls the whole times that try men's souls." world into its deep and terrible vor­ Now, brothers, you can shut your tex, and threatens to leave no nation eyes to the newspaper headlines some and no man a neutral? of the time, but you cannot shut out It is the clash between the prin­ the great political storm which is ciples of the French Revolution sweeping over the world all the time. against the principles of the Russian If you open your eyes, you read, here, Revolution of 1917. Today, we pro­ "Communists in France Halt the As­ pose to examine this clash. Two giant sembly"; there, "Strikes Imperil specters, two outbursts of elemental French Recovery." Again you hear, human nature, are struggling for the "Communist Paper Seized"; "Com­ soul and government of man. The munist Deputy Ejected for Inciting . spirit of the French Revolution, Army to Mutiny." which saw the dawn in 1789, is ex­ Look at this from Humanite, the claiming, "Liberty, equality, and fra­ Communist newspaper: "They wish ternity!" And there is the impetus of to assassinate the Republic." Or, the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917 Leon Blum says, "The Schuman gov­ asking: Is it, or is it not, liberty, ernment represents a third force, a equality, and fraternity? At any barrier to both the extreme Left, the rate, the classless state? Communists, and the extreme Right One hundred and fifty years bridge of De Gaulle." Another look at the the two; and here they are with us to­ papers tells us that the Communists day-two revolutions at war within are pledged to destroy the Marshall the bosom of a single world. Can they Plan. And, finally, Genera] De Gaulle merge, or must they fight it out? calls for a government with a strong Gottschalk, what does the scene look executive which is above all political like to you? parties and again declares himself on MR. GoTTSCHALK: I would like to the side of Western civilization underline the point which you have against the Soviet Union. made that one cannot understand the

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Frenchman of today unless one takes hood of man and the golden rule. On into account that the tradition of the the other hand, they had behind French Revolution is sti11 a living them a long list of historical docu­ force in France. ments like Magna Charta and the The Socialists stand largely for the writings of many philosophers. program that in the French Revolu­ But religious authority and histor­ tion used to be called the "J aco­ ical tradition too often supported the bins." The Right Republicans and the absolute and the aristocratic state, Republican Popular Movement are and so the French revolutionaries Catholics and Moderates, and they tried to find a better and a more uni­ stand to a considerable extent for the versal basis for these ideas. They ap­ moderate tradition and even the pealed to reason, and they looked counterrevolutionary tradition of the both to the "laws of nature and to French Revolution. The Communists nature's God," to use the phrase from are partly, at least, descended from the Declaration of Independence. that element in the French Revolu­ They found that it was nature that tion which used to be called the had given to man certain "inalien­ "enrage"-the equivalent of what we able rights." The American Declara­ would call the lunatic fringe. tion of Independence listed these MR. FINER: Pretty smart! rights. "AU men are created equal," it said, "and they are endowed by MR. GoTTSCHALK: And the their Creator ... with life, liberty, De Gaullists have behind them the and the pursuit of happiness." The Bonapartist legend-the tradition of French declaration of 1789 listed the strong man on horseback. them, too.1 MR. TowsTER: I would say that z The Declaration of the Rights of one cannot really understand the Man and of the Citizen of 1789 (and at­ clash between these revolutions un­ tached to . the constitution of 1790-91) less one knows the attitude which the declared: Russian leaders are taking toward the "The representatives of the French French Revolution and also the ap­ people, constituted as a National Assem­ bly, considering that plication which they ignorance, forget­ have made of fulness, or contempt of the rights of man the ideas of Marx and Engels. are the sole causes of public misfortunes MR. FINER: Gottschalk, you have and the corruption of governments, have spent a whole lifetime studying the resolved to set forth in a solemn declara­ French Revolution. Tell us about it. tion the natural, inalienable, and sacred rights of man, in order that this declara­ MR. GoTTSCHALK: The principles tion, constantly before all members of the of the French Revolution, and, for social body, may recall to them at all that matter, of the Russian Revolu­ times their rights and duties; in order that tion, do not seem to me to be very the acts of the legislative power and of the executive power, new. They were not new even in the being at each instant open to comparison with the aims of all eighteenth century. They had come, political institutions, may be more re­ on the one hand, from biblical roots spected; and in order that the demands of and the Christian tradition-the citizens, founded henceforth on simple ideas, for example, of the brother- and incontestable principles, shall tend THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE 3 MR. FINER: Almost copied them, very important. And these rights, did it not? they said, were liberty, property· MR. GoTTSCHALK: No, there are (which the Declaration of Independ­ some differences which are quite im­ ence omitted), security, and resist­ portant, I think. Men are born free, ance to oppression. Eventually these the French declaration said, and ideas were reduced to a slogan, and equal in rights. That seems to me the slogan went around the world always to the maintenance of the consti­ without other distinctions than those of tution and the happiness of all. their virtues and talents. "Accordingly, the National Assembly "VII. No man can be accused, ar­ accepts and declares, in the presence and rested, or detained except in cases deter­ under the auspices of the Supreme Being, mined by the law, and according to the the following rights of man and of the forms that it has prescribed. Those who citizen: solicit, expedite, or execute arbitrary or­ "ARTICLE I. Men are born and remain ders, or have them executed, should be free and equal in rights. Social distinc­ punished; but every citizen, summoned or tions can be founded only upon common seized by virtue of the law, ought to obey utility. instantly. He renders himself culpable by "II. The purpose of all political associ­ resistance. ation is the safeguarding of the natural "VIII. The law should establish only and imprescriptible rights of man. These those punishments which are strictly and rights are liberty, property, security, and evidently necessary; and no one can be resistance to oppression. punished except by virtue of a law estab­ "III. The principle of all sovereignty lished and promulgated previous to the resides essentially in the nation. No body, offense and legally applied. no individual, can exercise any authority "IX. As every man is presumed in­ which does not expressly emanate from it. nocent until he has been declared guilty, "IV. Liberty consists in freedom to do when it is deemed indispensable to make all that does not harm others. Thus the an arrest, all severity not necessary for exercise of the natural rights of each man making sure of the person should be has no other limits than those which as­ rigorously repressed by law. sure other members of society the enjoy­ "X. No one should be disturbed on ment of these same rights. These limits account of his opinions, even in regard to can be determined only by law. religion, provided their manifestation does "V. The law has the right to forbid not disturb the public order established only those actions which are harmful to by law. society. All that is not forbidden by law "XI. The free communication of cannot be prevented; and no one can be thought and opinion is one of the most constrained to do what it does not com­ precious rights of man. Every citizen can mand. then speak, write, and publish freely; but "VI. The law is the expression of the he shall be responsible for the abuse of this general will. All citizens have the right to liberty in cases determined by law. assist personally, or through their repre­ "XII. The guaranteeing of the rights sentatives, in its formation. It ought to of man and of the citizen necessitates a be the same for all, whether it protects or public force. This force is, then, instituted whether it punishes. All citizens, being for the advantage of all, and not for the equal in its eyes, are equally admissible special use of those to whom it is confided. to all dignities, places, and public posi­ "XIII. For the maintenance of the tions according to their capacity, and public force and for the expenses of the 4 THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE with the French armies and with and these ideas have a dynamic of French agents. "Liberty, equality, their own. and fraternity," the slogan said. MR. GoTTSCHALK: Besides, I would Now, that slogan has had its ef­ like to point out, principles once fect on the Russian Revolution, too. enunciated have a tendency to be­ MR. TowsTER: The interesting come more and more radical. In the thing is that the leaders of the Rus­ French Revolution, for example, the sian Revolution have never quarreled principles became, as time went on, with these ideals of the French Revo­ considerably more radical. The con­ lution. They have claimed, however, stitution of 1793, which came after that liberty, equality, and fraternity the king had been executed and are­ were not realized by the French Revo­ public had been established, gave a lution and that, despite the Declara~ great deal more stress to economic tion of the Rights of Man and of the rights than we find in the constitu­ Citizen, it was not the broad popular tion of 1791. Specifically, it stated, in masses but the upper middle class Article XXII: "Public relief is a which became the beneficiary of this sacred debt. Society owes mainte­ revolution. nance to unfortunate citizens, either MR. FINER: Yes, but do not forget in procuring work for them or in prO­ that what the Russian leaders forget viding the means of existence for is that, once ideas have been put for­ those who are unable to work." ward, society does not recede from That constitution of 1793, how­ them. The first beneficiaries are not ever, was never actually put into the last, because it is passed down, operation. Revolutions and wars have always brought about terroristic gov­ administration, a common contribution is ernment, and the terroristic govern­ indispensable. It ought to be equally dis­ ment disregarded liberty and consent tributed among all citizens, according to of the governed. And, finally, Napo­ their means. leon Bonaparte became master of "XIV. All citizens have the right of France as a result of the fears and the verifying, themselves or by their repre­ sentatives, the necessity of the public con­ aggressions which war and revolu­ tribution, of consenting to it without com­ tion bring about; and the rights of pulsion, of seeing how it is employed, and man gradually disappeared from his of determining the quota, assessment, constitutions and even from his gov­ payment, and duration. ernmental practice.2 "XV. Society has the right to demand 2 from every public agent an account of his The Declaration of the Rights from administration. the constitution of 1793 said: "XVI. A society in which a guarantee "ARTICLE I. The end of society is com­ of rights is not assured, nor the separation mon happiness. Government is instituted of powers set forth, has no constitution. to secure to man the enjoyment of his "XVII. Property being a sacred and natural and imprescriptible rights. inviolable right, no one can be deprived of "II. These rights are equality, liberty, it, except when public necessity, lawfully safety, and property. ascertained, evidently demands it, and "III. All men are equal by nature, and then only after a previous and just in­ before the law. demnity has been awarded." "IV. The law is the free and solemn THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE 5 Nevertheless, the slogans per­ about popular solidarity and nation­ sisted. The slogan of liberty and alism, and the idea of social responsi­ equality did much to mold the sub­ bility for the general welfare led to­ sequent quest for democracy. The ward early nineteenth-century so­ slogan of fraternity helped to bring cialism.

expression of the general will. It ought to apply, and in which its forms are not be the same for all, whether it protects or observed, is arbitrary and tyrannical. Re­ punishes. It cannot order but what is just spect for the law forbids him to submit to and useful to society. It cannot forbid but such acts; and if attempts are made to what is hurtful. execute them by violence, he has a right "V. All citizens are equally admissible to repel force by force. to public employments. Free people avow "XIII. Those who shall solicit, dis­ no other motives of preference in their patch, sign, execute, or cause to be exe­ elections than virtues and talents. cuted, arbitrary acts, are culpable, and "VI. Liberty is that power which be­ ought to be punished. longs to a man of doing everything that "XIV. Every man being supposed in­ does not hurt the rights of another: its nocent until he has been declared guilty, principle is nature; its rule is justice; its if it is judged indispensable to arrest him, protection the law; and its moral limits all severity not necessary to secure his are defined by the maxim, 'Do not to an­ person ought to be strictly repressed by other what you would not wish done to law. yourself.' "VII. The right of manifesting one's "XV. No one ought to be tried and thoughts and opinions, either by the press, punished until he has been legally sum­ or in any other manner; the right of as­ moned, and in virtue of a law published sembling peaceably; and the free exercise previous to the commission of the crime. of religious worship cannot be forbidden. A law which should punish crimes com­ The necessity of announcing these rights mitted before it existed would be tyranni­ supposes either the presence or the recent cal. The retroactive effect given to a law remembrance of despotism. would be a crime. "VIII. Whatever is not forbidden by "XVI. The law ought not to decree law cannot be prevented. No one can be· any punishments but such as are strictly forced to do what it does not order. and evidently necessary; punishment "IX. Safety consists in the protection ought to be proportioned to the crime, and granted by society to each citizen for the useful to society. preservation of his person, his rights, and "XVII. The right of property is that his property. right which belongs to every citizen to "X. The law avenges public and indi­ enjoy and dispose of according to his vidual liberty of the abuses committed pleasure his property, revenues, labor, and against them by power. industry. "XI. No person can be accused, ar­ "XVIII. No kind of labor, culture, or rested, or confined but in cases determined commerce can be forbidden to the indus­ by the law, and according to the forms trious citizen. which it prescribes. Every citizen sum­ "XIX. Every man may engage his moned or seized by the authority of the services and his time, but he cannot sell law ought immediately to obey; he ren­ himself-his person is not alienable prop­ ders himself culpable by resistance. erty. The law does not acknowledge servi­ "XII. Every act exercised against a tude-there can exist only an engagement man to which the cases in the law do not of care and acknowledgment between the 6 THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE

MR. FINER: The point is that the authority and sovereignty belonged beneficiaries may have been the to the people; that the people are the bourgeoisie; but consider what was masters of their government by vot­ carried on down and what was useful ing it in and out of office; that there to all society and, I believe we can shall be no censorship of ideas in even say today, to all mankind. whatever form, no arbitrary arrest There was sustained by the French and imprisonment, no lettres de Revolution for all the idea that all cachet, no Bastilles; and that the

man who labors and the man who em­ exercise the power of the whole, but each ploys him. section of the sovereign assembled ought "XX. No one can be deprived of the to enjoy the right of expressing its will in smallest portion of his property without perfect liberty. Every individual who ar-­ his consent, except when the public neces­ rogates to himself the sovereignty, or who sity ,legally ascertained, evidently requires usurps the exercise of it, ought to be put it, and on condition of a just and previous to death by free men. indemnification. "XXVIII. A people have always the "XXI. No contribution can be estab­ right of revising, amending, and changing lished but for general utility, and to re­ their constitution. One generation cannot lieve the public wants. Every citizen has subject to its laws future generations. the right to concur in the establishment of "XXIX. Every citizen has an equal contributions, to watch over the use made right of concurring in the formation of the of them, and to call for a statement of law, and in the nominatjon of his; manda­ their expenditure. tories or agents. "XXII. Public aids are a sacred debt. "XXX. Public functions cannot be Society is obliged to provide for the sub­ considered as distinctions or rewards, but sistence of the unfortunate, either by pro­ as duties. curing them work, or by securing the "XXXI. Crimes committed by the means of existence to those who are unable mandatories of the people and their agents to labor. ought never to remain unpunished. No "XXIII. Instruction is the want of all, one has a right to pretend to be more in­ and society ought to favor, with all its violable than other citizens. power, the progress of public reason; and "XXXII. The right of presenting peti­ to place instruction within the reach of tions to the depositories of public author­ every citizen. ity belongs to every individual. The exer­ "XXIV. The social guarantee consists cise of this right cannot, in any case, be in the actions of all to secure to each the forbidden, suspended, or limited. enjoyment and preservation of his rights. "XXXIII. Resistance to oppression is This guarantee rests on the national theconsequenceof the other rights of man. sovereignty. "XXXIV. Oppression is exercised "XXV. The social guarantee cannot against the social body when even one of exist if the limits of public functions are its members is oppressed. Oppression is not clearly defined by the law, and if the exercised against each member when. the responsibility of all public functionaries is social body is oppressed. not secured. "XXXV. When the gover.nment viO­ "XXVI. The sovereignty resides in the lates the rights of the people, insurrec­ people. It is one and indivisible, im­ tion becomes to the people and to every prescriptible and inalienable. portion of the people, the most sacred, and "XXVII. No portion of the people can the most indispensable of duties." THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE 7 right of all men to associate freely ty, and fraternity which, m his should be guaranteed. opinion at that time, the French In short, what it gave men was a Revolution had never really carried guarantee to work out their own po­ out. Therefore, he hit upon the idea tentialities. It gave them the guaran­ that class-class government-was tee of evolution and growth and then in the way of the free potentialities left it to the individuals in society to of man. Do not forget what it was decide where they should grow. And, that Marx said in the Communist of course, they grew into partly an Manifesto. He wanted an association economically egalitarian society, as in which the free development of each they found, degree by degree, they is the condition of the free develop­ could afford to go along in that line. ment of all, and therein he saw that Towster, tell us about the Russian the class state was the obstruction to Revolution. that. MR. TowsTER: I would say that MR. TowSTER: But with Marx it the chief difference from the French was just an idea. It was the Russian Revolution is that, like its teacher, leaders who insisted that his idea Marx, the leaders of the Russian must be carried into practice. For in­ Revolution therein laid chief stress on stance, following Lenin, Stalin, when the welfare of the masses rather than he took power in I924, carried out on the rights of the individual. Lenin several five-year plans to industrial­ claimed that only the establishment ize the country, to collectivize agri­ of social ownership of the means of culture, and to advance the cultural production can ultimately lead to the level of the populace. The Russian elimination of exploitation of men by leaders now claim that they have ac­ men, to material abundance and cul­ tually established socialism, though ture for all. And, in line with Marxist not yet communism, in Russia. That teachings, the Bolsheviks seized pow­ is to say, the people get paid for their er in I9I7 and established what they work according to their performance called a "dictatorship of the pro­ rather than according to their need, letariat." They proclaimed a pro­ which is the ultimate principle of gram of socialization of the economy, commumsm. which was expected (at least in their own minds) eventually to lead to a MR. GoTTSCHALK: That, to some classless socialist society and even to French revolutionaries, would be the withering-away of the state al­ bunk. together. MR. TowsTER: Bunk or not, the MR. FINER: Let us look at Marx Russian leaders believe in it, and one and at what Marx's contribution was. should remember that. They think Marx himself was a son of the French that the classless society is almost in Revolution. As you know, he was sight in Russia and that the USSR is born in I 8 I 8, and he began his po­ a valuable example of a multinational litical life looking for political liberty. fraternity of peoples. The idea of the In the course of that he had to find withering-away of the state, however, an instrument whereby he could per­ we must point out, is now pushed off suade people toward a liberty, equali- into the dim and distant future. 8 THE UNIVERSITY. OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE

MR. FINER: With a lot of subter­ ciple of liberty out by specifying cer­ fuges. tain civil rights, among them free­ MR. GoTTSCHALK: The thing which dom from arbitrary arrest, as you interests me about these ideas which pointed out, freedom of speech, opin­ you attribute to the Russians, and ion, worship, press, and free consent which I know are true of the Rus­ to the laws. The constitution of I79I, sians, is that they are not new ideas. as you also pointed out, Finer, The idea of a classless society was granted freedom of assembly. Any verbiage, I think, even in the eight­ society, said the 1789 declaration, in eenth century to a considerable ex­ which the guarantee of the rights of tent. You find it in Rousseau's idea of man is not sure, or the separation of the social contract, where each man governmental powers is not deter­ · is both a subject and a ruler at the mined, has no constitution at all. In same time because he is a member of other words, they meant to protect the sovereign people. The idea of the the individual in his natural rights withering-away of the state is an idea against arbitrary action from the which the philosophical anarchists of government by making clear to ev­ the eighteenth century had; and, in erybody what his rights were and by the economic sphere, the laissez checking and balancing the separate faire school of the eighteenth century parts of the government each by the had it. The idea of general sacrifice others. for public utility is found in nearly There are no checks and balances all eighteenth-century writers. in the Russian system, are there? MR. FINER: That is very interest­ MR. TowsTER: No, there are not, ing, for we have these three central but I would say that, so far as the concepts-liberty, equality, and fra­ fundamental theory of the Soviet ternity. Let us go into these, one by state is concerned, liberty is as much one, for a while. Let us compare and an ideal of the Russian Revolution as argue these two revolutions in terms of the French Revolution. When con­ of these central propositions. What sidering liberty from the standpoint is the meaning of liberty to a French of Russian practice, however, one revolutionist? must say that the balance between MR. GoTTSCHALK: Liberty was the liberty and authority in the USSR is keynote to the men of 1789. To them heavily weighted in favor of au­ it meant the power to do anything thority and that the scope of govern­ that does not injure others. Limits to ment is total and all-embracing. individual liberty could be set only The Soviet constitution of 1936 by law, and the law could prohibit provides for such civil rights as free­ only such actions as are injurious to dom of speech, press, and assembly, society. In the more radical Declara­ the right to unite in public organiza­ tion of the Rights, of I793, liberty tions, and also such novel social eco­ was based directly on the golden nomic rights as the right to work, to rule-"do not do to another," Ar­ leisure, to social security, and to edu­ ticle VI says, "what you do not wish cation. But, in practice, the civil to have done to you." rights have remained largely on pa­ Both documents spell the prin- per. Let us take, for instance, free- THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE 9

dom of speech. In such methods as ture and education and in the theater the business-like operation, let us say, do not have much initiative. But the of municipal services, discussion and physical scientists do. There is a cer­ criticism are not only permitted but tain distinction. encouraged. But on such important And I would also like to stress at problems as foreign policy, the ex­ this point an entirely different mat­ pression of public opinion must be ter. While we always hear talk about guided, while no criticism whatever is the limitations of Russian liberties, I permitted of Soviet fundamentals, want to point out that the cherished such as the principles of the economy liberties of the West are not really or the position of the party and of the craved so much by the Russian leaders. people as we may think they are. It MR. FINER: In other words, what is probably true to say that they do the Soviet really does, right at the not labor under any undue sense of top, by its notion of liberty is to turn privation, because there has never all individuals into political eunuchs. been any tradition of the Western It permits them to have something to kind of liberties in Russia. Also, such say on the minor things but nothing groups as, let us say, the backward on the major things. nationalities or the women have not I would like to say two things on enjoyed, under the previous regime, this question. To me the French any rights to speak of. Therefore, Revolution set up the idea, and its they too cannot possibly feel the main idea was that men should gov­ exact lack of Western types of liber­ ern themselves. That is the funda­ ties when they do have certain rights mental thing about it. Marx took for the first time. this as the dictatorship of the pro­ MR. FINER: Exactly! The critics letariat, all the proletariat, all the of Lenin always told him that if he people, and then it would be no dic­ moved along in the way that he was tatorship. Lenin perverted Marx on doing, the Russian people them­ this and made the dictatorship of the selves would never get the oppor­ proletariat into the dictatorship of a tunity even of experimenting or of party and of a vanguard of that learning how to govern themselves. party, which is nothing more or less And that has come about. than a despotism. Those are the main MR. GoTTSCHALK: I would like to consequences in terms of liberty of indicate that we cannot talk about these two revolutions. liberty altogether without telling MR. TowsTER: I think that you about equality. I indicated that the go a bit too far on that. The Russian French emphasized liberty rather system, I believe, does permit a cer­ than equality, but they had a very tain degree of initiative, at least on definite idea of equality, too. To the some scores. For instance, you may French revolutionaries it was not have noticed that during the recent exactly the naive notion of Jefferson's war both soldiers and generals dis­ Declaration that all men are created played a great deal of initiative. One equal or the Marxian idea of a class­ might say that social scientists do not less society achieved through a pro­ have much initiative. People in cul- letarian dictatorship. What they said 10 THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE is that men are equal in rights. What groups. So far as the nationalities they meant is that the old privileged of Russia are concerned, complete classes-kings, noble, clergy-should equality of rights has been both pro­ be abolished and that all qualified claimed and practiced in the USSR. men are citizens and have the right to So far as the social groups are con­ take a personal part, or to be repre­ cerned, they began with the concept sented, in making the laws, which of inequality. The Russian Revolu­ must be equal for everybody. All citi­ tion originally discriminated against zens are equally eligible for public all other groups except the workers. office. They would all be given equal­ But in the constitution of I936, one ly fair consideration in the law courts. must point out, all inequalities have Taxes would be equally apportioned been eliminated. Suffrage is equal among all citizens according to their now for all citizens. All enjoy the means. There is no longer for any same rights, regardless of race, na­ part of the nation, or for any individ­ tionality, creed, sex, or previous so­ ual, the constitution of I79I says, cial condition. They all have a right any privilege or any exception to the to elect or to be elected or to stand law, and the law must be common to for public office. all Frenchmen. Of course, some might say that Even a set of economic rights, as I this kind of approach is partly used said before, was sketched out in the for psychological political purposes­ Revolution in the constitution of I793, to promote unity through constant giving public relief and work to the reiteration of unit-but, neverthe­ individuals who could work and sub­ less, one must not deny that there is sistence to those who could not. a certain degree of substance to this. It is true that these principles were MR. FINER: Yes, that is so, but I not fully implemented, but, then, would like to make a comment on they are not implemented in the Rus­ this question of equality. The point sian Revolution any better either. is that society does not know how MR. FINER: No, no! Towster, much equality it can really stand. what do you think of equality? What Neither the French Revolution nor does that mean to a Russian revolu­ the Russian Revolution can give a tionary? final statement on that. The great MR. TowsTER: In a positive sense, merit of the French Revolution was at this time, I would say that the one that it made a framework and the aspect of equality in Russia is the open way for individuals themselves, chance of Soviet citizens to grow freely, election by election, genera­ through education, which has reached tion by generation, and by their ex­ enormous proportions in the country perience to decide how much equali­ and has really unchained a good deal ty they could stand and how much of talent in the vast masses of the equality they could put into the laws. populace. Perhaps we might go on to a con­ There are two aspects to this ques­ sideration of the other point-frater­ tion of equality in the Russian Revo­ nity. What about that? lution: one in regard to the nation­ MR. GoTTSCHALK: The slogan of alities and one in regard to the social fraternity was intended to convey THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE I I in 1789 the idea of the brotherhood same time the Soviet leaders are of all citizens. It was derived from the fighting against nationalist tenden­ general interest of the eighteenth cen­ cies in these republics and are looking tury in humanity. Early in the forward to integrating influences of French Revolution it became cus­ the one common party ideology (as tomary to commemorate the an­ well as the Russian language and niversary of great revolutionary Russian culture) for all groups and events with magnificent popular nationalities, as cementing media celebrations, and great leaders like which will eventually create a solid Lafayette became great popular mass of all the nationalities. idols. The new oath of allegiance, MR. FINER: You can see that which the nation was required to there are three points in this develop­ take, was an oath first to the nation ment of fraternity, especially in the and then only to the law and to the French Revolution. One was social king. This revolutionary national fraternity at home-how much solidarity was at first pacific. The groups in society were prepared to constitution of 1791 pledged that give to the others; the establishment the French nation renounced all wars of the open way politically led to so­ of conquest and would never employ ciety, generation by generation, to its forces against the liberty of any settle that. Secondly, there was this people. It eventually became ag­ nationalism-the corporate strength, gressive, I think, by a perversion. the corporate unity of the state, the MR. TowSTER: Is that not the republic, one and indivisible. It has nationalism, about which you are wonderful results in terms of pa­ speaking now, which has made for so triotism, and, at the same time, it much difficulty in the modern world? stimulates all the other oppressed MR. GoTTSCHALK: Yes. nationalities to want to stand for MR. TowsTER: If so, I would like their own self-government as a na­ to say that, so far as the Soviet lead­ tional corporation. But, thirdly, it ers are concerned, nationalism per se has this missionary element, which cut no figure with them, at least at was shown very well and which all the inception of the regime. Lenin revolutions seem to show in the pro­ stated in 1921 that Marxism cannot portion that they are sanguine about be reconciled with an1 nationalism, this-the spirit with which they want even the most "just,"' pure," refined, to infuse the institutions, with which or civilized. The ideal of the Bolsheviks they want to go outside and give was internationalism. Nevertheless, other peoples the benefits. they became the foremost advocates For example, at the end of 1792, of the rights of national self-deter­ the generals of the French Republic mination, even to the point of seces­ were instructed that, wherever they sion. They implemented this recog­ occupied a country, the generals nition by establishing an elaborate should announce the abolition of all system of national republics, regions, existing authorities-of nobility, of and areas, with separate constitu­ serfdom, of every feudal right and tions and governments for numerous every monopoly-and proclaim the nationalities of the USSR. At the sovereignty of the people; that the I 2 THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE

French nation would treat as ene­ lectual and his moral qualities to the mies any people which, refusing liber­ point where he can differentiate ty and equality, desired to preserve between right and wrong. its prince and privileged castes or to That may be a staff of doubtful make any accommodation with them. strength to lean upon, but I confess Now there is the meaning of fra­ that it gives me greater warmth and ternity in the two senses, at home and appears to me to be more dependable abroad. than the assumption that a cold, sci­ MR. GoTTSCHALK: I would like to entific, unalterable historical dialectic point out that I consider this spread­ has determined that man will, by a ing of the revolution abroad, this series of class struggles, achieve the missionary spirit, something in the dictatorship of the proletariat which nature of a perversion, particularly wilJ in turn achieve the withering­ when it takes the form of Bonapart­ away of the state and the classless ism in the effort to inflict nationalism society. upon other countries. The French Revolution is not MR. FINER: I would like to have finished, and it may never be fin­ your summary of the whole discus­ ished, but the struggle to finish it sion, Gottschalk. promises a greater and greater use of MR. GoTTSCHALK: The point liberty and of the dignity of the indi­ which I want to conclude with is that vidual. the principles of the French Revolu­ Liberty, equality, and fraternity tion at their best were a set of moral -these three-but the greatest of principles. They were derived from these is liberty! religious and philosophical roots long MR. FINER: Hear! Hear! before the eighteenth century. They What do you think about it, Tow­ were essentially a common layman's ster? faith-the reduction of biblical ideals MR. TowsTER: I would say that and philosophical tradition to the the greatest political problem which level of good citizenship. It makes faces the Russian Revolution is pre­ little difference to believers that cisely the issue which divides most the there may be inconsistencies or ques­ Soviet Union from the democracies tionable facts in their creeds. It does of the West. Indeed, it is the issue of not discourage them that their re­ our time-whether political liberty ligion has not yet achieved its full can be squared with economic democ­ promise. Believers in the principles of racy and whether both can be nur­ the rights of man feel that incon­ tured and strengthened side by side sistencies can be ironed out and dis­ in all policies. couragements surmounted if their Now two nations are facing each faith does not falter. other across the shrunken space of The rights of men are based upon the earth-the Soviet and the non­ the assumption that man will ulti­ Soviet worlds. Whether they will mately follow the right, that man progress in peace depends upon will follow the right if he is free to whether their conception of political know the right, and that he can power and economic welfare can be eventually improve both his intel- reconciled in time, ultimately leading THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO ROUND TABLE I 3 to international unity and world ises. Only the Western form of de­ order. In essence, as I see it, it is a mocracy carries within it, as its living reconciliation of the French and Rus­ principle, the free creativeness of mil­ sian revolutions-a sort of synthesis lions of individuals, the power to on the rights of men and of the inter­ progress to equality and fraternity ests of society. by the free votes of free men them­ The choice is between this recon­ selves deciding how much of these ciliation and ultimate mutual de­ things their nature can tolerate; struction. Upon this choice, which de­ while the Russian principle today pends to no small degree on the Rus­ takes choice out of the hands of free sians of the Russian Revolution and men, enslaves them, and deliberately their readiness for compromise, the destroys their minds, putting their fate of the world hangs. good outside them and outside their MR. FINER: I am convinced that own hearts and minds in to the hands the only reconciliation between what of a governing group, outside into the lies in the spirit of the Russian Revo­ hands of a few men who may be lution and the French Revolution lies capricious or may be good but cer­ in the triumph ofWestern democracy tainly have every reason to be and in the carrying-out of its prom- tyrants. More on This Topic

BECKER, CARL. The Declaration of Independence. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1942. A study in the history of political ideas. BROGAN, D. W. France under the Republic. New York: Harper & Bros., 1940. CaAMBERL1N, w_. H. The Russian Revolution, I9I7-I92I. New York: Macmil­ lan Co., 1935. EASTMAN, MAx (ed.). Capital and Other Writings. New York: Modern Library, 1932. Selections from the works of Karl Marx, including "The Communist Manifesto." FAY, BERNARD. The Revolutionary Spirit in France and America. New York: Harcourt, Brace & Co., 1927. FINER, HERMAN. America's Destiny. New York: Macmillan Co., 1947. GoTTSCHALK, Louis. "Causes of Revolution," American 'Journal of Sociology, L (July, 1940), I-8. ---. The Era of the French Revolution. Boston: Hough ton Mifflin Co., I 929. HARPER, S. N. The Government of the Soviet Union. New York: Van Nostrand & Son, 1938. KoHN, HANS. The Idea of Nationalism. New York: Macmillan Co., 1944. ---. Nationalism in the Soviet Union. New York: Columbia University Press, 1933. LENIN, NICOLAI. The State and Revolution. New York: Vanguard Press, 1927. MARTIN, KINGSLEY. French Liberal Thought in the Eighteenth Century Philoso­ phers. London: E. Benn, Ltd., I929. PARES, BERNARD. The Fall of the Russian Monarchy. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, I939· ---.Russia. New York: Penguin Books, I943· RITCHIE, DAVID G. Natural Rights. London: George Allen & Unwin, I9I6. An important study of the philosophy of natural rights. SHAPIRO, J. S. Liberalism in England and France in the Nineteenth Century. New York: McGraw-Hill Book Co., I947· STALIN, JosEPH V. Marxism and the National and Colonial ff<.uestions. London: International Publishers, I936. ---. The Problems of Leninism. London: International Publishers, I928 and I932. THOMPSON, J. M. The French Revolution. New York: Oxford University Press, I945· THOMSON, DAVID. Democracy in France: The Third Republic. New York: Oxford University Press, 1946.

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