Tuesday Volume 676 19 May 2020 No. 60

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 19 May 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 469 19 MAY 2020 470

closer to normal and they can reopen normally—hopefully House of Commons later this summer—that will not give them all the trade they previously had. Tuesday 19 May 2020 Shaun Bailey [V]: I am encouraged by my right hon. Friend’s response. Our pubs are at the heart of the The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock communities I represent in Wednesbury, Oldbury and Tipton. What work will he be undertaking alongside his colleagues across Government and, more importantly, PRAYERS on a regional level with our West Midlands Mayor, Andy Street, to ensure that pubs in the Black Country [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] have all the means necessary to survive and thrive again The House entered into hybrid scrutiny proceedings once the crisis is over? (Order, 21 April). George Eustice: My hon. Friend makes an important [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] point. Pubs are at the heart of our community, and the fact that they have been forced to close has caused difficulty for many of them. As the Prime Minister has Oral Answers to Questions outlined, we intend that the hospitality sector, including pubs, will be able to tentatively start gradually opening, hopefully during the month of July, subject to the epidemiology supporting such a move. We are already ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS working with the hospitality and pub sector to identify what social distancing measures they might be able to put in place to make that work properly. The Secretary of State was asked— Pubs as Takeaway Restaurants Supermarket Supply Chains David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) David Johnston (Wantage) (Con): Whether he plans (Con): What steps he is taking to ensure the maintenance to promote pubs as takeaway restaurants during the of supermarket supply chains during the covid-19 outbreak. covid-19 outbreak. [902733] [902734]

Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con): Whether The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural he plans to promote pubs as takeaway restaurants during Affairs (George Eustice): We have worked closely with the covid-19 outbreak. [902747] retailers and suppliers to ensure the security of supply chains, while also protecting staff safety. I would like to The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural put on record again my thanks to the sector for Affairs (George Eustice): The Government welcome the demonstrating such resilience and flexibility in the face reopening of food-to-go businesses in line with social of the crisis. Staff have worked around the clock to distancing measures and have relaxed planning rules so ensure that people have the food they need. To support that pubs and restaurants can operate as hot food industry,we have introduced temporary measures,including takeaways. Wepublished guidance for restaurants offering temporary relaxations to competition law, and extended takeaway or delivery services, which has been widely delivery hour regulations, and we have published guidance welcomed by the sector. The UK Government, along to help to ensure that workplaces and retail spaces are with the devolved Administrations, are working closely as safe as possible. with the food and drink and hospitality sectors to support their gradual reopening and continued operations. David Simmonds [V]: To support the resilience of the supermarkets and food shops on which my constituents David Johnston [V]: I thank my right hon. Friend for in Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner depend, what steps is that answer. Pubs like the Fleur De Lys in East Hagbourne my right hon. Friend taking to ensure that people who have been doing a great job, with takeaway pints of beer work in food supply and food retail are able to access and food three nights a week, from fish and chips to priority testing for covid-19, so that they can get back roasts. Can he confirm that he actively encourages that to work? but knows that it is not a substitute for being properly open and that the Government will work with pubs to George Eustice: I can reassure my hon. Friend that all guide them on how they can do so safely as soon as essential workers, including all those involved in the possible? food supply chain, are eligible for testing. We are working with the food sector to ensure that employees who are George Eustice: We were very clear when we imposed either self-isolating with symptoms of the coronavirus the original restrictions at the point of lockdown that or who have a symptomatic household member are able those did not extend to takeaway food outlets. We were to access those tests. Eligible workers who are self-isolating clear that we wanted to support those pubs and restaurants can apply for a test directly online or can be referred for that wanted to remain open, offering takeaway food. a test by their employer. Those that have done have made an important contribution to our food supply at this difficult time, and we very Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): The resilience of much welcome the steps they have taken. Of course, we the food supply chains has been impressive, and we also recognise that until things return to something thank all those who work on our farms and in processing 471 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 472 factories and the pickers, delivery drivers and, of course, George Eustice: This Government have a very clear shop workers who have kept the food flowing to our manifesto commitment that we will protect our food supermarkets. The foolish dismantling of the seasonal standards in all our trade negotiations. Certain practices, agricultural workers scheme, now made worse by the such as chlorine washes on chicken or hormones in covid crisis, means that we face an alarming shortfall in beef, are subject to a prohibition on sale in the UK, and the 70,000 experienced people needed to pick our crops. that law remains in place. It is also the case that, as we The laudable “Pick for Britain” campaign may help, but advance trade negotiations with all third countries, it was reported only a few weeks ago that of the 50,000 animal welfare is one of the issues that we will be seeking applicants, only 112 had made it into the field. Can the to promote. Secretary of State tell us what those figures are today and what is his plan B? Supermarkets: Good Hygiene and Social Distancing

George Eustice: We estimate that only about a third Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con): What steps he is taking of the east European workforce who would usually to promote (a) good hygiene and (b) social distancing in come to work on our farms are here or have continued supermarkets. [902739] to come. That means that we will need a British workforce to step up and assist in getting the harvest in this year, Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): and we are very encouraged by the results so far. The What steps he is taking to promote (a) good hygiene hon. Gentleman is right that a few weeks ago, when it and (b) social distancing in supermarkets. [902744] was early in the season, there were not many jobs. But we are now approaching the peak season in June, and The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural employers are starting to recruit more and more British Affairs (George Eustice): From the outset, we have workers. For instance, G’s salads currently has more worked extensively with retailers and Public Health than 400 British people working on its farms today England to establish best practice and publish guidance on social distancing and hygiene, to keep staff and Food Supply customers safe.Industry has adapted effectively and quickly, and measures introduced include signage and floor Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What assessment markings to help customers maintain distance, screens he has made of the adequacy of the supply of food at tills and limits on the number of customers in store. during the covid-19 outbreak. [902738]

The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Ian Levy [V]: On a recent visit to my local supermarket Affairs (George Eustice): The food industry has responded in Blyth, I was pleased to see that the supermarkets are quickly and impressively to the significant changes in taking all the necessary precautions to try to protect the demand that we have seen over the past month. That public while they are out shopping. Those include cleaning has ensured supply into stores and people’s homes stations, markings on the floor and regular announcements across the country, and has demonstrated that the supply to tell people to maintain social distance. Does my right chain remains resilient. The Government have supported hon. Friend agree that, as measures are relaxed and we the industry with proportionate and temporary relaxations move forward, we must all be aware and mindful while of competition law and drivers’ hours and extended out shopping, to protect not only ourselves but the delivery hours. staff, who have been providing an invaluable service during this pandemic? Mr Bone: The Secretary of State is absolutely right: British farmers have been brilliant in getting food on George Eustice: On the latter point, I take the opportunity the table. Does he agree, therefore, that there is no need to pay tribute to all those key workers working throughout for US-style industrial factory farming of poultry in our food supply chain, from those working on farms this country, and will he look into the rotten proposal to those working in logistics and food manufacturing, from my constituency, which I wrote to him about on and of course those working in our supermarkets. They 15 April? have helped to ensure that the nation has remained fed, and the work that they have done has been truly George Eustice: I am aware, as it has been drawn to phenomenal. my attention, following my hon. Friend’s question, that I also agree with my hon. Friend that as we seek to there is a letter that I have yet to respond to; I will evolve the current restrictions and move back to something respond to that. Obviously, the issues that he has raised closer to life as normal, we all have a great deal that we are predominantly issues for the environment agencies can learn from the measures that have been put in place that carry out such environmental assessments.He mentions by supermarkets—and also in factory environments by US-style poultry. Obviously, some approaches to poultry our food processors. farming in the US will not be lawful in the United Kingdom, so I can reassure him on that. Sir David Evennett [V]: I congratulate my local Sainsbury’s stores in Erith Road, Barnehurst, and in Crayford on Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP) their good organisation and friendly staff. Does my [V]: The adequacy of the food supply includes the right hon. Friend agree that other businesses will be nutritional values and the production standards. The able to learn lessons from the actions taken by supermarkets Government whipped their Back Benchers to vote against to ensure good hygiene and social distancing? maintaining food standards for imports in the Agriculture Bill, and now we are hearing that it is a fire sale in the George Eustice: My right hon. Friend is absolutely US trade deal. How can the public ensure that the food right: our supermarket retailers acted within hours— in our shops remains of the same quality as it is now? certainly within 24 hours—to implement social distancing 473 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 474 when lockdown occurred. They acted swiftly, and we UK Food Producers have learned a lot along the way, in conjunction with Public Health England. I can tell my right hon. Friend Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): What that the experiences of our supermarkets and food recent steps he has taken to promote UK food producers. manufacturers have been shared extensively with the [902746] Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, as it has developed safer-working protocols for other The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural parts of the economy, because we can—absolutely—learn Affairs (George Eustice): Our food and farming industry from the steps that supermarkets and others have taken. plays a crucial role in challenging times, and we are co-funding a £1 million campaign to promote milk, Food Security alongside industry and devolved Government partners. We are also supporting the fishing industry by promoting Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): What assessment a wide variety of seafood species from UK waters. A he has made of the risk to food security from the further campaign is promoting beef across the devolved covid-19 outbreak. [902743] nations, and our Food is GREAT campaign, which showcases internationally products from across our four The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural nations, has delivered successful trade and consumer Affairs (George Eustice): The coronavirus response has focused marketing activities. exemplified the resilience of the UK food supply chain. Mr Bacon [V]: Given that there is already mandatory Industry has responded quickly to significant changes country of origin labelling for fish, fruit, vegetables, in demand to ensure that people have the food they eggs, wine, honey, olive oil and beef, does the Secretary need. In the initial few weeks, when there was an episode of State agree that now is the right time for mandatory of panic buying, our food manufacturers increased country of origin labelling for all meat, so that consumers output by some 50%. can never be misled by dodgy imports produced in Althoughourfoodsecuritydependsonbothinternational conditions that would be unlawful here and which are trade and domestic production, this crisis has brought sold as if they were British? home the crucial importance of domestic food production. We are fortunate to have some of the most innovative George Eustice: As my hon. Friend has pointed out, food manufacturers and producers in the world, and I there has been a long-standing legal provision for mandatory pay tribute to all they have done in recent months. country of origin labelling on beef, in which, to claim that the country of origin is the UK, the animal must be Anna McMorrin [V]: Between April and September born, reared and slaughtered in the UK. Those regulations last year, the Trussell Trust reported a 23% rise in the on mandatory country of origin labelling were extended number of food parcels provided across the UK. As of several years ago to cover all principal meat species. April this year, the figure has doubled. Given the World They do not yet extend to processed goods that might Bank’s recent warning of a covid-19 worldwide food contain multiple goods, but there have been significant price spike, as well as the alarming rise in unemployment steps forward in broadening the scope of mandatory we have seen today, what steps is the Secretary of State country of origin labelling. taking to alleviate the shameful growth in food poverty? Financial Support for Food Producers George Eustice: We recognise that, as a result of the coronavirus crisis, the financial vulnerability of households John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP): What additional has also increased. That is why,last week, the Government financial support he plans to provide to food producers announced a new £16 million fund to support food to mitigate the effect of the covid-19 outbreak. [902760] charities, including refuges and homeless hostels. The food will be distributed by our existing partners in Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): What FareShare. additional financial support he plans to provide to food producers to mitigate the effect of the covid-19 outbreak. Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/ [902766] Co-op): Food bank demand is surging, up on average The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural by between 60% and 80% from pre-virus levels. Now, Affairs (George Eustice): We are working closely with unemployment is soaring, up by nearly 70% last month. the agriculture and fishing industries to manage the It is clear that we need measures that match the scale of negative impacts of covid-19. In addition to HM Treasury’s the crisis. Last week, the Secretary of State whipped his financial support packages, the Department for MPs to reject Labour’ssensible proposals for an emergency Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has announced coronavirus food plan. With The Times reporting that support schemes for the dairy and fishing industries, the Prime Minister is now keen on a food plan of his and we continue to monitor other sectors. own, dealing with obesity and coronavirus, will the Secretary of State confirm that the Government’s urgently John Mc Nally [V]: Will DEFRA Ministers go further needed food strategy, which must include a coronavirus and insist with their counterparts in the Department for focus, will be published before the recession bites? International Trade on high standards for animal welfare, phytosanitary and food production imports to protect George Eustice: The food strategy that is being developed our domestic food producers? by Henry Dimbleby, one of our non-executive directors, will involve an initial report in the autumn setting out George Eustice: The Government are very clear—and the approach and the nature of the challenges, and the it was set out in our manifesto—that we will not final report is expected in the early part of next year. compromise on our high food and animal welfare standards 475 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 476 as we approach trade agreements. Specifically, that means by car, and also to cycle and walk. I thank the hon. that the UK will determine its own domestic standards Gentleman very much for his question, because he when it comes to the so-called SPS chapter—those strikes a good note. He will know that the uptake of sanitary and phytosanitary issues—relating in particular cycling has surged during this time, especially where to food safety. Those will be set at a UK level and we businesses are providing a scheme so that their employees will not abandon or change those standards in response can have bikes. He will also know that the Prime Minister to demands from other countries. has announced that we are phasing out new petrol and diesel vehicles by 2035—earlier, if possible. Lessons will Tommy Sheppard [V]: I note that today’s announcement be learnt. The Air Quality Expert Group has been by the Department for International Trade does not conducting a big survey, and I know that the hon. change agricultural tariffs, so how will DEFRA Ministers Gentleman will be interested in the results when they are ensure that the new tariff regimes after Brexit continue revealed. to favour our long-established and profitable trade in that sector with member states of the European Union? Mr Speaker: Before I bring in the shadow Minister, How will they ensure that the tariffs prevent our marketplace may I just ask Ministers to speed up the answers? from being flooded with low-quality products from We have to get through some more Members. elsewhere in the world? LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): George Eustice: The new UK global tariff that has It is my first time appearing opposite the Minister; been announced today does retain tariffs for most key hopefully we will have many fruitful discussions. agricultural products, including those sensitive agricultural There is growing evidence that deaths due to covid products that are often discussed in this House. The are higher in areas of bad air quality, but lockdown answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that we means that right now we are breathing the cleanest air would seek to grant tariff-free access to EU trading that we have had in generations. We need to do all we partners in future through a free trade agreement, and can to ensure that many of the survivors of covid, who we have set out clearly the legal text of an acceptable will have weakened lungs, are protected. Air pollution free trade agreement should our partners wish to enter currently kills 40,000 people each year, with 40 of our into such an agreement. Maintaining those agricultural towns breaking the World Health Organisation limit. tariffs also ensures that we do not expose our market in The Government and the Minister dismissed putting the short term to lower-standard products from other targets in the Environment Bill, but surely covid has countries. changed all that. Will the Minister sit down with us and agree a form of wording that will require Ministers to Covid-19 Lockdown: Air Quality set targets on air quality in order to reach the WHO standard by 2030 and help save British lives? Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the effect on air quality of Rebecca Pow: As the hon. Gentleman alludes to, the the reduction in the use of motor vehicles during the Environment Bill delivers key parts of the clean air covid-19 lockdown. [902740] strategy and introduces a duty to set an ambitious, legally binding target on PM concentrations of pollutants TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, of greatest harm. I know that he will also be interested Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow) [V]: It is an in the independent Air Quality Expert Group, which absolute pleasure to be taking part today, Mr Speaker, has been analysing the situation so that we can learn although nothing really makes up for being there in person lessons from coronavirus, and from air quality and its with you. potential impact on human lives. Air quality is a serious issue for human health. DEFRA’s roadside air quality monitoring stations continuously monitor air quality. Between 23 March Commercial and Household Waste Collection and 5 May, nitrogen dioxide concentrations were, on average, 46% lower than this time last year,with reductions Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con): ranging from 9% to 65% at individual locations. That is What steps he is taking to ensure that (a) commercial largely due to the substantial reduction in traffic levels, and (b) household waste continues to be collected during although other factors such as weather may also have the covid-19 outbreak. [902742] had some impact. Interestingly, concentrations of other air pollutants, such as fine particulate matter, have not TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, shown similar trends. Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow) [V]: DEFRA officials are working with local authorities and industry Jeff Smith [V]: I thank the Minister for her answer. to ensure that commercial and household waste can That is some small good news, I guess, out of lockdown. continue to be collected safely during the coronavirus In Manchester’s sister city of Wuhan in China, private outbreak. I pay tribute to and thank all those working in car use nearly doubled when the lockdown ended, with local authorities and the waste sector who have ensured the obvious effects on air quality.Is the Minister concerned that nearly all household waste collections in England that the Prime Minister’s statement of 10 May encouraged are operating as normal. On 5 May, DEFRA published the use of cars? guidance to help local authorities to reopen household waste and recycling centres. Rebecca Pow: It has been made very clear in all the guidance and by the Prime Minister that, first and Mr Mohindra: Does my hon. Friend agree that waste foremost, if people can work from home, they should collection is an integral part of ensuring health and do so. Those who have to go to work were advised to go wellbeing during this global pandemic? I know that she 477 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 478 has thanked key workers, but would she particularly Lilian Greenwood [V]: Tens of thousands of lives cut thank key workers in South West Herts? I am sure that short every year—that was the UK’s air quality health they would appreciate her comments. emergency long before we had even heard of coronavirus. As my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West Rebecca Pow: Of course, I would be delighted to (Geraint Davies) said, we now know that there is a thank those key workers. We must not forget that those strong correlation between long-term exposure to air who work in the waste sector are key workers, and they pollution and covid-19 deaths, so clean air zones are have done a tremendous job in keeping our waste needed more than ever. However, Nottingham’s taxi systems flowing, with a terrific record of 91% maintaining drivers tell me they are worried about their ability to normal collection services from our households during invest in new clean electric vehicles as a result of lost this difficult period. Many are now working in the waste income, and other businesses face similar pressures. As and recycling centres that I am pleased to say have we come out of lockdown, how will the Government opened, and that are working efficiently in almost every support local councils and small businesses to go even area—albeit with strict guidance and slightly different faster to protect the public from toxic air? services from those that they were operating before. Rebecca Pow: As the hon. Lady will know, we have Covid-19 Death and Infection Rate: Air Quality supported Nottingham City Council to tackle its nitrogen dioxide exceedance through a £1 million investment to Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): What support the uptake of e-taxis and £1.7 million to retrofit discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for 171 buses, which means that there is not a need for a Health and Social Care on the relationship between air clean air zone. Nottingham is also one of the Go Ultra quality and the rate of (a) death and (b) infection from Low cities. My officials will be working closely with and covid-19. [902749] will be very interested to speak to Nottingham City Council to see how the impacts of coronavirus are Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): What affecting its plans. They are doing that with all local discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for authorities across the country, just to keep a weather Health and Social Care on the link between air quality eye on how coronavirus will impact our new clean air and the exacerbation of covid-19 symptoms. [902765] zones and our drive to reduce air pollution, which of course is all important. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow) [V]: DEFRA has had extensive discussions with the Department of Health HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION and Social Care on the relationship between air quality and health, recently considering the specific relationship The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, between covid-19 deaths and air quality. DEFRA is representing the House of Commons Commission, was actively working with Public Health England and the asked— OfficeforNationalStatisticstoassessfurthertherelationship for the UK, and DEFRA’s chief scientific adviser is Isolation of House Staff: Gemma White QC working with relevant experts in health, disease and air Recommendations quality to assess the relationship between air quality and the risk of infection, based on the emerging scientific Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP): With reference research into covid-19. to the July 2019 recommendations of Gemma White QC on tackling the isolation of House staff, what plans the Geraint Davies [V]: Research from Harvard University Commission has to implement those recommendations suggests that a change of 1 microgram per cubic metre while staff are working from home during the covid-19 of PM2.5 leads to a 15% reduction in covid deaths, and outbreak. [902786] Queen Mary University of London has shown that Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) [V]: Good short-term pollution gives rise to more infection. Will day to you, Mr Speaker. In February this year, the House the Minister and the Secretary of State meet me and the of Commons Commission agreed to establish the Member academics from Harvard and Queen Mary on 29 May Services Team, which will deliver the recommendations at the all-party parliamentary group on air pollution to of Gemma White QC, including on the isolation felt by discuss this, with a view to introducing World Health MPs’ staff. I understand that the team is already working Organisation air quality standards into the Environment with Members’ staff to see how their ideas for greater Bill? mental health support can be delivered. The MST is also currently recruiting two MPs’ staff advisers to tackle Rebecca Pow: I know that the hon. Gentleman works the issues raised around isolation. very hard in this area. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Public Health England and the Hannah Bardell [V]: I thank my hon. Friend for his ONS are working together to assess whether there is answer. I know, Mr Speaker, that you are well aware of evidence of association between exposure to particulates— the excellent cross-party work that members of my team the PM2.5 that he refers to—and covid-19 mortality in —Stephanie McTighe and Chloe Mclellan—have done the UK. The clean air strategy sets out the comprehensive on the issue of staff wellness and support, including by action required across all parts of Government to improve giving vital evidence to the board of the Independent air quality for everyone, and it includes measures to Parliamentary Standards Authority. The Gemma White reduce key sources that contribute to fine particulate report highlighted that constituency staff often deal with matter. Because of the lockdown, I think joining the vulnerable constituents, many of whom can be suicidal APPG would be difficult, but I would be very interested and in deep distress. Those existing challenges are now to have some feedback from that meeting. compounded by the fact that staff are working from 479 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 480 home. Will my hon. Friend meet my team and I to discuss and ends with our obligations and service to the staff of their work and how staff wellbeing can be made a priority, the House. I note her concerns, and she may wish to and to ensure that the Commission does all it can to take them to the Procedure Committee. There are likely support staff in our constituencies so that we can continue to be further announcements about the operation of the to serve our constituents in a safe and supportive way? hybrid virtual proceedings in the course of the next couple of days, and I encourage her to engage fully with Pete Wishart: I thank my hon. Friend very sincerely all debates and discussions concerning them. and commend her for the work she has been doing across the House. I also thank her staff, who have inputted Dr Huq: I echo what has been said, and I thank you, greatly into the work on this terrain. I draw attention to Mr Speaker, for making hybridisation happen in a the fact that £4,000 has been made available from the Parliament where just getting TV cameras in took centuries. Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority to help Given that social distancing is here to stay, it will take with those very issues, and I encourage her to use that 40 minutes of votes to incorporate it into our jobs. We resource as much as possible to ensure that her staff are are told, on issues from ending air pollution to destroying assisted. The employee assistance programme is already capitalism, that we cannot go on with what was happening available to MPs’ staff for counselling and support. I before. Is there any reason why the Government seem in encourage all Members from across the House to access such indecent haste to rush back to the bad old days? Is those services and that resource, and do everything possible it to disguise the drubbings that the PM is getting every to ensure that their staff are kept safe and secure. Wednesday from our new leader by having a few more of his own around him to cheer him on? Hybrid Proceedings in Parliament Pete Wishart: Unfortunately, the answer is going to Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): be pretty much the same as the previous one. That is What assessment the Commission has made of the amatterfortheGovernment;itisnotwithintheresponsibilities effectiveness of the implementation of hybrid proceedings and obligations of the House of Commons Commission. in Parliament. [902789] All I can say to the hon. Lady is that I note her concerns. We have obligations and responsibilities to the staff of Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): thisHouse.Thestaff unionshavebeenmakingrepresentations Whether the Commission plans to bring forward proposals totheCommissiononbehalf of theirmembers.Iencourage for the continuation of hybrid proceedings after the end her to take up these issues with the relevant Ministers. of the covid-19 lockdown. [902799] Covid-19: Parliamentary Estate Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) [V]: The Commission has made no formal assessment of the Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): What effectiveness of the implementation of hybrid proceedings steps the Commission is taking on the parliamentary in the House. I should like to put on the record—on estate to help tackle the spread of covid-19. [902790] your behalf, too, Mr Speaker, as you have led on these Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) [V]: The issues—our appreciation of the broadcasting service House Service is currently working in conjunction with and the digital service for delivering the hybrid functions Public Health England to ensure that we meet the and services at breakneck speed. It is quite extraordinary Government guidelines to become a covid-19-secure work- that they have done it under these circumstances. place and to build on our existing measures to ensure TheCommissionhasnoresponsibilityformakingchanges that all those working on the estate can do so safely. to the House’s procedures. That is a matter for the House That is underpinned by the completion of a covid-19 itself. The hon. Lady may wish to make a submission to risk assessment, which will be shared by all those working the Procedure Committee’s current inquiry into the on the estate if the House returns after the Whitsun operationof proceedings.TheCommissionhasresponsibility recess. The successful introduction of those measures for the staff of the House and the provision of services will help to reduce the spread of covid-19, and they to Members and their staff on the estate. It is currently have been supported by those on the estate. working to ensure that the House meets the Government guidelines to become a covid-19-secure workplace. Carol Monaghan [V]: I thank the Commission and, indeed, the staff in Parliament for the work they have Chi Onwurah [V]: Thanks to you, Mr Speaker, the done in enabling Members to participate virtually while parliamentary digital service, the Clerks, the Commission, complying with Government guidelines to stay at home. the House authorities, broadcasting and other staff in Of course, returning to normal proceedings would involve the House, the digital Parliament has been a huge not just 650 Members but several thousand staff on the success, but now the Leader of the House wants to estate, many of whom are currently shielding. As my abandon it and instead insists that 650 MPs—potential hon. Friend will know, it is almost impossible to travel super-spreaders—should travel from across the country more than about 10 metres in Parliament without touching to cram into Westminster, putting constituents and staff a door handle. So what work is the Commission doing at risk. Why would the Government choose to ignore to ensure that both staff and Members stay safe and do their own advice that those who can work from home not become super-spreaders? should, unless it is to cast a protective cloak around their floundering Prime Minister? Pete Wishart: The House is doing everything possible to ensure that we do become a covid-19-secure workplace. Pete Wishart: I thank the hon. Lady for that question, But my hon. Friend is right to note that if we do and I note her long-term interest in this issue.Unfortunately, abandon these virtual proceedings tomorrow, it will be it is a matter not for the Commission, but for the necessary for 650 Members to travel from all corners of Government. The Commission’s responsibility begins the United Kingdom to participate in proceedings in an 481 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 482 environment that will be very, very challenging in order Christian Matheson (City of Chester): In accordance to ensure that we can maintain social distancing with its functions under the Political Parties, Elections requirements. All I can say, again, is that this not a and Referendums Act 2000, the Speaker’s Committee matter for the Commission—it is a matter for Government, met on 24 March to examine the Electoral Commission’s who are driving the “return to this House” agenda. I main supply estimates for 2020-21 and its five-year encourage her to take this up with Ministers to ensure plan. In doing so, the Committee had regard to the that we do have a safe environment and that we do nothing advice from the Treasury and the latest report made to further to put our constituents at risk. it by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Committee was satisfied that both the estimate and the plan were consistent with the economic, efficient and effective PARLIAMENTARY WORKS SPONSOR BODY discharge by the Commission of its functions. The right hon. Member for East Hampshire, Mr Bone: May I congratulate the hon. Member on representing the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body, his new responsibilities? But this is not about figures— was asked— it is about the way that the Electoral Commission Parliamentary Works Programme: Cost has hounded leave campaigners. There have been 34 investigations, eight court cases, and at least four Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): What assessment people referred to the police for criminal investigation—and the sponsor body has made of the potential merits of it has all come to nowt. Would the hon. Member support reducing the cost of the parliamentary works programme a review by the Public Administration and Constitutional as a result of the covid-19 outbreak; and if he will make Affairs Committee? a statement. [902788] Christian Matheson: I hope that the hon. Gentleman Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) [V]: I am sure that feels that the Speaker’s Committee is doing a decent job covid-19 is going to cause all of us to think afresh about in maintaining scrutiny of the Electoral Commission. many things. For the restoration and renewal project, It is entirely appropriate, from time to time, for Select value for money is clearly vital—indeed, it is a statutory Committees to look into public bodies that fall under obligation. With the Sponsor Body and the Delivery their competence, and I suggest that he write to the Authority now substantive, we will conduct a strategic Chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional review that will consider the trade-offs and compromises Affairs Committee making that suggestion. that could be available. But of course, any such decisions Boundary Review in England would be for Parliament to make. Michael Fabricant [V]: May I associate myself with Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): To ask the hon. the comments made earlier about 650 super-spreaders Member for City of Chester, representing the Speaker’s returning to Parliament? Committee on the Electoral Commission, what recent progress has been made on the boundary review in We are currently spending in the order of several England. [902810] million pounds to repair the roofs and the brickwork, and to stop fire damage to that marvellous building, the Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): The Local Palace of Westminster. That is all correct. However, as Government Boundary Commission for England continues my right hon. Friend said, there is perhaps some doubt to recommend fair electoral and boundary arrangements as to whether R&R will go ahead, so I may I ask him to for local authorities in England. Last week, it published ensure that huge amounts of money are not now spent final recommendations for Westminster and Richmond on a project that would cost between £4 billion and upon Thames.These local government boundaries generally £8 billion to complete, if it is ever done at all? become the building blocks for parliamentary boundaries, which are, of course, a matter for the four Boundary Damian Hinds: I think it is rather more than several Commissions, reporting through the Cabinet Office. million pounds that has had to be spent by Parliament just to keep its own operation going. However, I want to Nick Smith: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. reassure my hon. Friend that the business case would The covid-19 virus has, of course, had an impact on have come before Parliament for decision anyway. It every facet of our lives at the moment. Will he tell us was always envisaged that once the Sponsor Body was more about its impact on the commission’s boundary set up in law, there would be a review of certain aspects work and whether it has been able to co-ordinate its of the programme. But in these current circumstances, work with other Boundary Commissions, such as those and with what we know now, it is right that that review working on the parliamentary boundaries? will now be broader and deeper. Christian Matheson: When coronavirus-related restrictions were introduced, the commission shifted entirely ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE to home working. It took forward work on reviews where further external information or input was not The hon. Member for City of Chester, representing the required, such as those for Westminster and Richmond. Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, was The commission aims to deliver external reviews informed asked— by local needs, views and circumstances.It therefore paused Electoral Commission: Effectiveness some reviews that were part way through the review process while it considered how to proceed. It has now Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What recent developed new ways of working, and commissioners assessment the Committee has made of the effectiveness are meeting today to agree how and when to restart of the Electoral Commission. [902796] paused reviews and begin others. On the wider issue of 483 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 484 parliamentary boundaries using these building blocks, Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) [V]: The National because that is a rolling programme, many of those Audit Office’s work programme is ultimately determined building blocks will already be in place and other reviews by the Comptroller and Auditor General, and it is perhaps would never have been ready in time for the regularly reviewed to ensure that it reflects current particular parliamentary reviews. issues. Dealing with covid-19 is, of course, a major task of the Departments, on which the NAO will report. The Digital Election Campaigning: Transparency hon. Lady may be interested to know that later this week the NAO will be publishing a report summarising Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): To ask the hon. the Government’s actions on covid-19 to date, which Member for City of Chester, representing the Speaker’s will provide the basis for further work. This first report Committee on the Electoral Commission, what recent will set out the main measures adopted under the discussions the Committee has had with the Commission Government response, including the coronavirus job on improving transparency in digital election campaigning. retention scheme. [902811] Kerry McCarthy [V]: I thank the hon. Gentleman for Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): At its that response, which may well have answered my meeting on 24 March, the committee approved the question—that is unusual. The point I wanted to flag commission’s interim corporate plan, which includes up with him is that although the Government coronavirus plans to address voter concerns about digital campaigning. support packages have helped a great many people, far The commission’s recent report on the 2019 general too many have fallen through the gaps and, for one election highlighted significant public concerns about reason or another, are not getting the help they need. I the transparency of digital election campaigns, which therefore ask him to bring this issue to the attention of risk overshadowing their benefits. The commission has the Comptroller and Auditor General, so that the NAO set out actions that parties, campaigners, Governments could look into the operation of these schemes to see and social media companies should take to support whether they represented the best use of public money trust and confidence at future elections. The actions or whether lessons could be learned as to how we would include extending the imprint rules for printed materials approach an issue such as this if, God forbid, we ended to digital campaign materials so that voters know who up with another situation as serious as the current is trying to influence them. pandemic. Kevin Brennan [V]: This follows on from what the hon. Mr Bacon: I would hate to be thought of as responsible Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) asked earlier. for starting a new trend by actually answering the Last week, he said the Electoral Commission, which, as question, but as I mentioned in my initial response, the my hon. Friend said, is asked to do this important work NAO is soon to publish this report, which will be just on digital campaigning, was “arrogant”, “incompetent”and the first in a programme of work supporting Parliament “politically corrupt, totally biased and morally bankrupt”.—[Official in its scrutiny of covid-19. I am certainly happy to draw Report, 13 May 2020; Vol. 676, c. 246.] the hon. Lady’sconcerns to the attention of the Comptroller This was because it had the nerve to enforce the law and and Auditor General. The future work programme will fine Vote Leave £61,000. Would the committee agree include how the large sums that have been committed to that to try to intimidate an independent electoral body the health and social care response, and indeed, to in this way is more in the tradition of the politicians of mitigating the economic impact, will be being spent, Zimbabwe than of Britain? and the quality of that spending. It will be important for the NAO to review whether the money is achieving Christian Matheson: The Electoral Commission has a the intended impact, as well as how the risks of fraud regulatory role and regulatory authority which are the and error are being managed. same as those of many regulators throughout the United Kingdom. I suggest that the track record of the Electoral Commission is one that perhaps does not bear some of Church Commissioners the description that has just been repeated. In the past five years,it has carried out approximately 500 investigations into a variety of electoral offences. Only five of those The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, have been challenged in the courts and only one challenge representing the Church Commissioners, was asked— has been upheld. Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): What steps the Church of England is taking to support family life during the covid-19 lockdown. [902783] PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION TheSecondChurchEstatesCommissioner(AndrewSelous): The hon. Member for South Norfolk, the Chairman of With no access to our church buildings, considerable the Public Accounts Commission was asked— innovation by the clergy has seen the creation of virtual prayer services, school assemblies, study groups, fellowship Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme: Date of Eligibility meetings and craft workshops. That is in addition to online church services, bereavement counselling, marriage Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): To ask the preparation and marriage support. Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission, if the NAO will estimate the cost to the public purse of Miriam Cates [V]: In normal times, churches engage changing the date of eligibility for the coronavirus job with thousands of parents and children each week retention scheme to 19 March 2020. [902800] through playgroups, coffee mornings, church services 485 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 486 and youth groups, providing support to families across TheSecondChurchEstatesCommissioner(AndrewSelous): all sections of society. In my constituency, groups such The House of Bishops guidance issued on 5 May shows as these have been a lifeline to many families, including that the Church of England is committed to reopening my own. During this crisis, what steps are churches buildings in a phased and measured manner,in accordance taking to remain in contact with these families, particularly withthelegalposition.WeareworkingwiththeGovernment to support parents as they continue to raise children in and representatives of the heritage planning sector to very difficult circumstances? assess the need for building adaptations related to public health. Andrew Selous: I am so pleased to hear how the work of the church benefits my hon. Friend’s family and the Fiona Bruce [V]: Polling shows that during the current families of many of her Penistone and Stocksbridge crisis, one in four adults, and one in three of 16 to constituents. I also recommend that families check out 30-year-olds, have joined a religious service remotely. the Faith at Home video resources of the Church of Does my hon. Friend welcome that, and what is the England, which nurture a growing faith and this month Church doing to ensure that this continues more widely, focus on hope, courage, love and humility—all qualities even after lockdown? that we need at work and in the community, as well as at home. Andrew Selous: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing those figures to the House’s attention and I Clergy’s Access to Churches welcome them very warmly, particularly the large viewing figures among younger people. She is absolutely right that the Church will need to keep up a significant online Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): What assessment presence well after lockdown has finished. the Commissioners have made of the implications for the access of clergy to their churches of the most recent Support for People in Need Government advice on covid-19. [902784] Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew (Con): To ask the hon. Member for South West Selous): Clergy can now return to their churches to pray Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners, and live-stream services. For the time being, churches what steps the Church of England is taking with (a) the must remain closed for public worship, as set out in law. Government and (b) other faith groups to support people The Government set out their ambition to reopen places in need. [902787] of worship from 4 July, subject to further scientific advice. No place of worship will be able to reopen TheSecondChurchEstatesCommissioner(AndrewSelous): before a final decision by the Government, the necessary The priority for the Church has been to continue its vital changes to the legal position in the published regulations service to those in material and spiritual need in all and the accompanying decision by the diocesan bishop, communities despite the restrictions imposed. Bishops which will take into account local circumstances. and the Church are in regular contact with Ministers, and to this end the Church is represented on two Cabinet Jerome Mayhew [V]: During this national crisis, there Office taskforces. has been a vital role for the established Church to represent the concerns and fears of the whole nation. Mr Speaker: With a fantastic collection of Wisden cricket Does my hon. Friend agree that the physical presence of books, we go to Sir John Hayes. a parish church, open for prayer and attended by its Sir John Hayes [V]: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have priests, is an important signal that we are not alone in many interests, including cricket, as you do I know. our struggle? Health workers, care workers, bin collectors, posties and now all those who are unable to undertake The smaller charities are struggling because of their work from home have been asked to accept additional fundraising difficulties in the current crisis. Will my hon. personal risk to carry out their important work for the Friend look at how the Church can work with those health and wellbeing of the nation. Should our clergy charities? It is true that our churches have closed, but not be allowed to provide the same level of service to the Church has many buildings—church halls and so their—[Inaudible.] on—that might be made available. Fellowship and faith are so important at this time, as is our charitable work. Mr Speaker: Whatever you can answer of that. I wonder if he can help. Andrew Selous: All food bank work in churches continues. Andrew Selous: I very much agree with my hon. Friend For example, Christ Church in Eastbourne is feeding about the physical presence of churches, but while our 200 people breakfast in its car park; churches in Alston buildings may be closed, the Church is very much alive Moor are delivering groceries in a refrigerated van; and and has been astonishingly present in the midst of St Luke’s in Buckfastleigh has delivered 18 sets of hearing suffering and need, providing comfort, inspiration and aids among other items. There are wonderful examples a great deal of practical help. Those who allege that we of what the Church is doing, and no doubt that is have done nothing or vacated the field are not correct. happening in South Holland and the Deepings as well. Buildings, Liturgy and Worship: Adaptation Clergy Discipline Process

Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What representations Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con): Toask the hon. Member the Church of England has received on the adaptation for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church of its buildings, liturgy and worship prior to their Commissioners, what steps the Commissioners are taking reopening after the covid-19 lockdown. [902785] to review the clergy discipline process. [902791] 487 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 488

TheSecondChurchEstatesCommissioner(AndrewSelous): Support for Hospital Chaplains I recognise my hon. Friend’s experience in dealing with these difficult issues. The operation of the clergy discipline Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): measure is currently being reviewed, and it is hoped that What support the Church of England provides to hospital less serious complaints could be referred initially to chaplains in the course of their ministry to the sick mediation or alternative dispute resolution, which would during the covid-19 outbreak. [902794] allow complaints to be dealt with more expediently and effectively. Andrew Selous: I thank my hon. Friend for his interest in and concern for our hospital chaplains, who have Peter Gibson [V]: Research has shown that the clergy done such amazing work in recent months. The Church discipline process leaves many members of our clergy works closely with the College of Healthcare Chaplains vulnerable and, in some deeply saddening cases, has to ensure support for our chaplains. Anglican chaplains, driven them to take their lives. What steps are the while being required to hold a bishop’s licence, are Church Commissioners taking to review these processes actually employees of the trusts they serve, not the Church and to provide the right mental health support to those of England. clergy subject to discipline, particularly where such discipline arises from a spurious or malicious allegation? Andrew Griffith [V]: I thank my hon. Friend for his Will my hon. Friend reassure the House that the Church comments. Sadly, I was touched by the virus with the Commissioners will provide our clergy with the support loss of my father, and Father John Diver of St Lawrence’s they need during the process? parish in Sidcup was a source of great comfort to him and my family at a difficult time. Would the Church Andrew Selous: Our hope is that the proposals under Commissioner join me in recording our gratitude to consideration, which I have just outlined, will mitigate hospital chaplains and to the clergy of all faiths? the possible detriment to respondents from complaints that may be unfounded. Freeing bishops from direct Andrew Selous: I know that the whole House would judicial involvement in disciplinary matters would enable want to extend our deepest condolences to my hon. them more easily to offer the pastoral support my hon. Friend for the very sad loss of his father. What he says Friend refers to. We are also exploring how to supplement about all chaplains is absolutely right, and the Archbishop ecclesiastical legal aid to support those responding to of Canterbury has himself been volunteering as a chaplain complaints. at St Thomas’s Hospital. I thank him very much for his Remote Access to Church Services kind comments, which will be deeply appreciated.

Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): To ask the Church of England Schools: Support for Children hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing and Parents the Church Commissioners, what steps the Church of England is taking to maintain remote access to church Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): What services during the covid-19 outbreak. [902793] steps Church of England schools have taken to support children and parents during the covid-19 lockdown. TheSecondChurchEstatesCommissioner(AndrewSelous): [902795] I can tell my right hon. Friend that the Archbishop of Canterbury’s Easter day sermon was listened to by 5 million people and that the Alexa Church app has had Andrew Selous: I would like to thank very warmly a 70% increase in usage in the last month. Perhaps most and pay tribute to all the teachers and staff in Church notably, “The UK Blessing”, co-ordinated by Gas Street schools who are providing teaching and care for Church, Birmingham, has been downloaded 2.6 million children at this difficult time. They have moved rapidly times, and according to the Prime Minister is a sensational to provide online lessons and resources, and are singing masterpiece to which he has awarded a point looking after children of key workers and overseeing of light. the distribution of free school meal vouchers. The Church is also delighted to have partnered with the Oak National Theresa Villiers: I warmly welcome the huge efforts Academy to provide assemblies and weekly collective going into ensuring that people have remote access to worship. church services, but there are some situations when that is not a substitute for meeting in places of worship with Tim Farron [V]: Here in Cumbria and the South one’s family, so can I urge the Church Commissioners Lakes, headteachers of Church schools—in fact, of all and my hon. Friend to speed up the introduction of schools—do want to return on 1 June, but of course small-scale funerals within churches, with social distancing they see protecting the safety of their school community observed, because of the comfort they can bring to as their first and primary responsibility. Will the hon. people bereaved by this terrible crisis? Gentleman make strong representations to the Department for Education about supporting those schools that decide Andrew Selous: I know what a deeply difficult issue to stay closed for the time being for safety reasons, this is. The Church will work with the Government on especially given new Government guidance against schools these issues to do safely what my right hon. Friend asks. using flexible approaches for returning pupils? She will be aware that cleaning in many of our churches is done by volunteers, some of whom are elderly and Andrew Selous: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his may have difficulty coming in between funerals, but the question. In addition to being Second Church Estates point she makes is very valid and has absolutely been Commissioner, I am a governor myself of a Church noted. school, and I actually attended a governors meeting by 489 Oral Answers 19 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 490

Zoom early this morning looking at exactly these issues. Department for Education is taking these issues very I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, and I will make seriously and will proceed cautiously,as we would all expect sure that his comments are fed in. I know that the it to do. 491 19 MAY 2020 492

Speaker’s Statement Coronavirus and Care Homes

12.32 pm 12.33 pm Mr Speaker: Before the first urgent question, I have a Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab) (Urgent Question): short statement to make. The Government have called To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Social for Parliament to set an example as to how business can Care if he will make a statement on coronavirus and continue in this new normal. The Government should care homes. also set an example themselves. It is unacceptable that the business of answering written questions in a timely and substantive way has not continued. The Government Mr Speaker: I call Matt Hancock to answer the simply must do better. The Departments that do not urgent question. The Secretary of State should not improve soon can expect to be called to answer an urgent speak for more than three minutes. question on this matter. The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Matt Hancock): One of the first things we knew about coronavirus as it began its dismal spread across the world was that it reserves its greatest impact for those who are physically weakest, especially the old. In the UK, 89% of all deaths have been of those aged above 65. From the start, we have worked hard to protect those in social care. In early March, we put £3.2 billion into social care—half through the NHS and half through local authorities—and we have repeatedly set out and strengthened guidance for infection control and support. For anyone who has a loved one living in a care home and for all the residents and staff, I understand what a worrying time this has been. I am glad that we have been able to protect the majority of homes, and we will keep working to strengthen the protective ring that we have cast around all our care homes. As I said in the House yesterday, last week we set out a further £600 million to strengthen infection control, and this comes on top of a substantial programme of support. First, on testing, from the start we have tested symptomatic residents of care homes, even when testing capacity was much lower, and this has always been a top priority. We are now testing all care home residents and staff in England—those with symptoms and those without—and this is being done according to clinical advice, starting with the most vulnerable, and extending to working-age residents, too. Secondly, we have strengthened the NHS support available to social care. We are putting in place a named clinical lead for every care home in England and have brought NHS infection-control expertise to the sector. Thirdly, we are making sure that local authorities play their part. Councils are conducting daily reviews of the situation on the ground in local care homes, so that every care home gets the support that it needs need every day. Fourthly, we are supporting care homes to get the PPE that they need. Fifthly, we have increased the social care workforce during this crisis and provided more support. Altogether, this is an unprecedented level of support for the social care system. I thank colleagues across social care for their hard work.1 We have also broken down some of the long-standing barriers, including between health and social care, and we have learned the importance of making sure that money for social care is ring-fenced specifically for social care, as the £600 million agreed last Friday has been. On top of that, we are requiring much better data from social care, because partial data has bedevilled the management of social care for many years and made 1.[Official Report, 20 May 2020, Vol. 676, c. 2MC.] 493 Coronavirus and Care Homes19 MAY 2020 Coronavirus and Care Homes 494 policy making more difficult. Regular information returns social care and guarantee that no provider will collapse are required in return for the latest funding, and we are because of this virus? No one denies how difficult this looking to change the regulations to require data returns is, but instead of denying problems and delays, Ministers from every care provider, so that we can better prepare should learn from their mistakes so that they can put and support social care. the right measures in place in future and keep all elderly Our elderly care homes provide for people towards and disabled people safe. the end of their life. They do an amazing job and deserve the praise that they have received from the public during Matt Hancock: I welcome the hon. Lady to her post this crisis. Residents are looked after when they need and to her first question in this new role. I know that she care the most: their hands are held, their brows are enjoys a good working relationship with the Minister mopped and they are made comfortable. As a collective for Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham result of our efforts—especially the efforts of care colleagues and Mid Kent (Helen Whately), and that cross-party throughout the country—62% of care homes have had working during this crisis has gone on throughout. I no reported cases of coronavirus. thank her for that and for the approach that she is The figures released today by the Office for National taking. She is right and perfectly reasonable to ask Statistics show that the number of deaths in care homes questions about how we can further improve the support has fallen significantly and is down by a third in just the that we are giving to the care sector, and, as I have said past week, from 2,423 to 1,666. This morning’s statistics from this Dispatch Box before, and before her appointment, confirmed that 27% of coronavirus deaths in England we have made social care a priority from the start. The have taken place in care homes, compared with a European first guidance went out to social care in February. She average of around half, but whatever the figures say, we referred to the 13 March guidance. That was only a will not rest in doing whatever is humanly possible to matter of days immediately after the risk to the public protect our care homes from this appalling virus, to was raised on medical advice. The guidance that was in make sure that residents and care colleagues have the place until then, as she probably knows, explicitly stated safety and security they deserve. that that guidance was in place while community transmission was low and that it would be updated as Mr Speaker: In welcoming the hon. Member for soon as community transmission went broader. That is Leicester West (Liz Kendall) to the Front Bench, I asked exactly what we did. her to speak for no more than two minutes. More importantly, the hon. Lady raised the question of discharges, and I understand the questions that have Liz Kendall: Over 23,000 more people have died in been asked about discharges into care. It is important to care homes in the first four months of this year compared remember that hospital can be a dangerous place for with last year. This virus is the biggest health challenge people. As well as saving lives, it can also carry risks, of our lives, but Ministers have been too slow to tackle and does so, so it is an appropriate clinical decision in the problem in care homes, social care has not had the many cases for people to be discharged from hospital, same priority as the NHS, and these services have not and safer for them to go to a care home. What is been treated as inextricably linked. important is that infection control procedures are in Will the Secretary of State explain why guidance saying place in that care home, and those infection control that care homes were “very unlikely” to be infected was procedures were put in place at the start of this crisis not withdrawn until 12 March, given that the chief and have been strengthened, exactly as she says, as we medical officer warned about community transmission have learned more and more about the virus all the way and the risks to the elderly on 4 March? NHS England along. As the clinical understanding of coronavirus has rightly asked hospitals to free up at least 30,000 beds to strengthened, so too have we updated and strengthened cope with the virus, but will the Secretary of State explain our guidance. whythere was no requirement to test those being discharged The hon. Lady asked about PPE. As she and every to care homes—the very group most at risk—until Member of the House knows, there has been an enormous 15 April? Care providers had serious problems getting global challenge with the global shortage of PPE and personal protective equipment, as their normal supply the need to get PPE distribution out to tens of thousands was requisitioned by the NHS, when both are equally of settings. The guidance that we have put out again, important. Why did that happen? which is guided by clinical expertise, states the level of It took until mid-April for the Government to produce PPE that is required, and we are now delivering against a social care plan, until the end of April for them to say those standards. We have processes in place so that all that all residents and staff should be tested, and until care homes that have shortages—the numbers are coming 11 May for them to set a deadline for achieving this—and down, I am glad to say—can get in contact with their that deadline still is not until 6 June. Will the Secretary local resilience forum and make sure that they can get of State explain how he squares all that with his claim that PPE. Those processes are in place. It has been a that Government have thrown a “protective cloak” huge challenge. It was called the biggest logistical exercise around care homes right from the start? Despite all the of the last 40 years by the head of the Army, and I think warnings, care homes in my constituency told me over he was right. the weekend that they cannot access the Government’s The hon. Lady also asked about resources. Of course, new online testing portal, that tests are not being picked if more resources are needed, we are open to those up and that it is often weeks until they get results back. discussions. The fact that we put through £600 million When will this be sorted out? more that will go directly to social care—it will not be Finally, the Government have said that the NHS will able to be held by councils; rather, it will go directly into get whatever resources it takes to deal with this virus. social care—is right, but we have also learned some Will the Minister now make the same commitment to really big things about social care, confirming some of 495 Coronavirus and Care Homes19 MAY 2020 Coronavirus and Care Homes 496

[Matt Hancock] Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): In Harrogate and Knaresborough, and across North the things many of us thought before. For instance, it is Yorkshire, the county council has established a step-down true that we need to have a more co-ordinated policy facility for patients being discharged from hospital, using between health and social care. These social care reforms, care homes with segregated spaces, and in Boroughbridge which are long overdue and have not been put in place an entire care home, effectively as a form of quarantine by Governments of all colours, absolutely must happen. facility. That is in addition to the testing and protective arrangements, not as a replacement. I view this as a Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con) welcome and valuable addition to the tools available for [V]: Clearly, tackling this virus in care homes is a very keeping some of the most vulnerable people in our difficult thing, but the chief executive of Hertfordshire community safe. Does my right hon. Friend agree, and Care Providers Association is on record as saying that can the idea of this facility be replicated further across care providers in the county feel well supported during the country? the pandemic. Does the Secretary of State agree that what is required to achieve this, as in Hertfordshire, is a Matt Hancock: Yes. I pay tribute to those working very close working relationship—a partnership—between across Harrogate to improve services in exactly the way care homes, the councils, the Care Quality Commission in which my hon. Friend describes. He is quite right to, and, of course, the clinical commissioning groups? and I would love to look into more details.

Matt Hancock: I entirely agree. We have seen much Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab) [V]: The Select better partnership working in most parts of the country Committee on Health and Social Care has just heard during this crisis.The partnerships between local authorities, evidence that there has been not one single care home with their statutory responsibilities, and, as my right hon. death in Hong Kong or South Korea, despite their and learned Friend mentioned, all parts of the NHS, proximity to China and shorter time to prepare for this with its statutory responsibilities—clinical commissioning crisis. In comparison, the UK has now tragically seen groups, trusts and the integrated care systems—is very over 10,000 deaths of loved ones in care homes. How important. They have worked much better over the last can Government describe this as a success? Is it not few months than they had hitherto. We need to make time now to learn from other countries that have genuinely sure that that coming together—in a very difficult put a protective ring round their care homes? circumstance, which has broken down boundaries— continues. I look forward to working with him and Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely it is important to others in making sure that the boundaries that exist in learn from everywhere around the world. This epidemic social care can be brought to the ground. has had a different shape in different parts of the world and, as the hon. Lady knows, a significant impact throughout Europe. Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]: The London School of Economics reported that there Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con) [V]: It were over 23,000 excess deaths in care homes in England is good to see my right hon. Friend bearing up so well and Wales, but only 12,000 were put down as due to under the considerable burdens of his office. Can he covid. How does the Secretary of State explain the reassure me that the PPE supply into the UK and other 10,000? Testing of care home staff is critical to within the UK is now flowing into all care homes in a reduce the spread, but how will he improve the return of timely and comprehensive manner? I am concerned that results to local GPs and public health teams? Concerns those who are running our care homes so well in Sutton have been raised that a quarter of tests are false negatives, Coldfield should have the security of knowing that they which could send staff with the virus back into care can rely on continuous supply. homes and hospitals. It is a difficult sample to take, so is any comparison being made between self-administered tests and those carried out by healthcare staff? Finally, Matt Hancock: Yes, I can reassure my right hon. where is the Green Paper that was promised in 2017? Friend—I thank him for what he said about the work we are doing in the Department—first, that supplies of PPE into the country and buying around the world have Matt Hancock: On the point about tests, absolutely, improved significantly, and we have put huge amounts work was done to assess the difference in efficacy between of effort into improving that. Secondly, the supply, once professionally administered and self-administered tests, the equipment is in the country, out into the care homes and it found that their efficacy was very similar and not and where it needs to be is improving all the time. The significantly different. That is why across England and number of care homes reporting that they are within Scotland, and indeed the whole UK, we use home tests, 48 hours of a stock out, which is the measure we use, which are an important part of our testing regime. has been falling and is less than half what it was a The hon. Lady asks about the increased number of month ago, but we of course keep working to get that deaths, sadly, that there have been in care homes. She is number down. When a care home is within two days of absolutely right that there has been an increase. We a stock out, we immediately work to get it the PPE that analyse the causes of all the different factors that may it needs. have had an impact, which is something our clinical advisers are looking at. The same is true in Scotland, Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD) [V]: At this morning’s and I am sure that the Scottish medical advisers are Health and Social Care Committee, Care England said looking into the same. When it comes to a Green Paper, that care staff were suffering a constant cycle of at the moment we are working on crisis response, and bereavement. With so many deaths in care homes, staff I think that is the appropriate thing to do. are not only caring for, but comforting those they know 497 Coronavirus and Care Homes19 MAY 2020 Coronavirus and Care Homes 498 well who are dying alone. So will the Secretary of State Matt Hancock: I am a massive supporter of the living take steps this week to provide a 24-hour mental health wage and, of course, the increase in the living wage that phone line for all care staff, as well as fast-track access we have seen since its introduction in 2015 has had a to professional mental health services, as is the case for very positive impact on the pay of the lowest paid the military? people in our country right across the board, including many in care homes. I think it is an excellent policy and Matt Hancock: I will absolutely look into the proposal I am delighted that we have brought it in. that the hon. Member puts forward. Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con) [V]: The £600 million Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con) [V]: presented by the Secretary of State for infection control The Secretary of State is doing a phenomenal job. It is a is very welcome, and having a named clinician to help huge crisis and a huge thing to mobilise everything that support care home staff is particularly important. That has needed mobilising. came out in the Health and Social Care Committee I have spoken to most of my care homes and most of when Professor Lum talked about what happens in them are doing very well, but one, Milford Care, is Hong Kong. One of the lessons they learned several having a problem with getting test kits. Six people in the years ago was to have a named person in a care home, home have died recently. The home requested test kits but also to do yearly, effectively, virus drills, like a fire on 12 May through the Government portal, but they drill. Would the Secretary of State consider putting that were told there was a very limited supply. They may get in place to help to deal with the impact of possible second them on Wednesday this week, if they are lucky, but if waves? not they will have to re-register for them. Staff and residents may be infected, but they are not aware. They Matt Hancock: Yes, we are doing a huge amount of have had somebody who was tested and seven days later work now to ensure that there is protection in the future was told they were positive, even though they had no should there be a further increase, and in particular in symptoms, so clearly, the virus is spreading. What can advance of winter in case there is strong seasonality to my right hon. Friend suggest that they do? this disease. As a clinician himself, my hon. Friend understands the importance of these areas and we will Matt Hancock: I think the best thing they can do is absolutely take the idea he put forward and run with it. raise it with their very effective local MP, who can bring it to my attention, and that is exactly what they have Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab) [V]: Brent Council done. I will get right on to it, straight after this session was at the epicentre of the initial covid outbreak, with in the House of Commons. We have the testing capability. one of the highest hospital death rates in the country, Of course, making sure you get exactly the right test to but back in February it spent £1.5 million to purchase exactly the right place and the right care home at the PPE, which it made available to its care homes. In right time is itself a huge logistical challenge, but I will March, it established a separate care facility to provide look into this immediately. 14 days’ isolation for any patients discharged from hospital back into the care system, whether or not they Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) [V]: CQC had tested positive for coronavirus. Now Brent has one data revealed a 175% increase in deaths of people with of the lowest number of care home deaths in London. I autism and learning difficulties last month, yet the new know the right hon. Gentleman will want to congratulate care home testing portal is only available to homes Brent, which actually did put in place a protective ring whose residents are aged 65 and over. What is the around its care homes, but what he must answer is: if Minister doing to ensure that all care homes are able to Brent Council had the good sense and foresight to get access tests? Will the Government conduct a review of this right, why didn’t he? why there has been such a sharp increase in deaths among these groups? Matt Hancock: The hon. Gentleman makes a really important point and it comes to the nub of the challenge Matt Hancock: I addressed this point in my opening around care home policy. I do want to congratulate response to the urgent question. We will roll out testing Brent. I think that the work it did was important, but, to care homes of all ages. This is an area that I take very of course, formally and in the law responsibility for care seriously indeed. We are looking into the statistics that homes is for local councils and some local councils, like have been mentioned in the public domain. Some of the Brent and others, have done a magnificent job. However, statistics are not quite as they first seem. We will make I also understand that it is a reality of political life and sure that we publish accurate and full statistics, because our constitution that I as Secretary of State for Health transparency is absolutely vital in this area. and Social Care am also responsible, and I take that responsibility very seriously. However, when it comes Mr Speaker: Sara Britcliffe has withdrawn, so we go to longer-term reform, this does bring a conundrum to Stephen Flynn. because the policy levers that I have as Secretary of State are only through councils, which themselves have Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP) [V]: Thank to then act. you, Mr Speaker. The Resolution Foundation has detailed On the funding side we have seen this challenge. We that 61% of frontline careworkers in England are paid put in £1.6 billion at the start of this crisis through less than the real living wage. The Scottish Government councils without a ring fence, and there are questions introduced a real living wage for carers in 2017. Will the being raised about how much of that has got to the Secretary of State therefore follow their lead and instead frontline, so for the £600 million we put through on of a badge or round of applause finally give frontline Friday we have put in a very firm ring fence, so it must careworkers in England a real living wage? be paid in a timely manner through to care providers. 499 Coronavirus and Care Homes19 MAY 2020 Coronavirus and Care Homes 500

[Matt Hancock] which were “full of people with underlying health conditions”. I think this actually raises a question not just for the Ministers, however, have said that fewer care home crisis but for the longer term. When I am held accountable residents were discharged into care homes in March at this Dispatch Box for the actions of local authorities, than in previous months this year. Will the Secretary of I can give support, but we do not have the direct levers. State commit to publishing those figures and the figures We have not even had the direct data flows through to of how many people were discharged from hospital the centre, and we are putting that right too. with covid-19 into care homes? Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): On behalf Matt Hancock: I am happy to look into that. Martin of the care homes in Worcestershire, I thank the Secretary Green also said: of State for the extra £7 million that will be reaching them to help them to tackle infection control. Can he “It has become clear that in such a crisis we need further confirm that that money will also be available to support direction from Central Government.” the domiciliary careworkers, who regularly visit homes That is what we have tried to put in place by working of individuals who need that care? with colleagues in local authorities to try to make sure that we get the best infection control procedures across Matt Hancock: Yes. the board.

Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab) [V]: My constituent Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con) [V]: Will Sonya Kaygan lost her life to coronavirus. She was a the Secretary of State join me in praising the work of highly skilled and committed careworker, but worked in the Hampshire and Isle of Wight local resilience forum, a low-pay sector, caused by the near £8 billion cut to its which has meant that no care home has been without funding in the past decade. Will the Secretary of State personal protective equipment during the pandemic? commit to ending the scandal of low pay in the care Will he also join me in thanking the resilience and hard sector and reverse a decade of cuts to social care work of all the careworkers in Meon Valley? budgets, in honour of my constituent and others who As the Secretary of State has already mentioned, the have died doing their job, so that all careworkers are coronavirus crisis has highlighted the importance of the paid a fair wage and have the equipment to do their job joined-up approach between the NHS and the social safely? care sector. He has assured me that we will continue to build a more cohesive structure. Will he also consider Matt Hancock: We have put an unprecedented amount appointing a social care commissioner to lead that work of funding into social care during the crisis. There is the and be the voice of the social care sector? important challenge of ensuring that that reaches the frontline through local councils. We have also increased, through the increase in the living wage, the pay of the Matt Hancock: Yes. I join my hon. Friend in paying lowest paid across society and in social care. I am proud tribute to Hampshire and I am interested in talking to to have supported that. her more about her idea.

Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con) [V]: The Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) Secretary of State is doing an extraordinary job in the (Lab) [V]: A resident contacted me whose mum is most challenging of times. He will be aware that we classified as clinically extremely vulnerable and is in a have a testing centre down in Bexhill that is available to care home.The care home has interpreted the Government’s care home workers for testing, but if they follow the guidance to mean that her mum must be kept in solitary Government advice and go on the website, they will be confinement for three months for her own protection. directed further afield to Brighton or Gatwick. Will he In 2011, the United Nations concluded that solitary help me to ensure that that testing centre is made confinement beyond 15 days constituted a cruel and available to care workers so that they have more protection inhumane punishment. The resident is heartbroken. locally? Her mum is deteriorating and has no quality of life. We believe that the care home has the best of intentions, Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely. My hon. Friend texted but can the Secretary of State urgently give clear and me about that last week. I should have fixed it by now, unequivocal advice on exactly how care homes should then I would not have had the question. It absolutely treat residents listed as needing shielding? needs to be sorted. We are working on it. We rolled out the testing centres at an unbelievable pace during April, Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady is right to raise that so I hope he will forgive me and allow me to take a heart-rending case. I would be happy to look into the couple more days to fix the problem. specifics if she writes to me with the details. Of course, the shielding programme is there for the protection of Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab) [V]: The Secretary the shielded. If somebody who is being shielded would of State may be aware of the comments of Martin prefer to do things differently, that is not clinically Green, the chief executive of Care England, to the Health recommended, but so long as it is within the broader and Social Care Committee. He said: social distancing guidelines, of course we understand “We should have been focusing on care homes from the start of why that might be the case. In particular, people coming this...What we saw at the start was a focus on the NHS”. to the end of their life may want to consider ensuring He also criticised the discharge of patients from hospitals that they enjoy their last few weeks and months as much into care homes and said that there were, as they can. A proportionate approach is required here, “people who either didn’t have a covid-19 status or were symptomatic and one that is guided by the individual clinical who were discharged into care homes”, circumstances of that person. I very much hope that the 501 Coronavirus and Care Homes19 MAY 2020 Coronavirus and Care Homes 502 care home will take a proportionate approach. I am lives due to covid-19. Can the Secretary of State confirm sure, as the hon. Lady says, that it has the best intentions that acceptance of that payment precludes subsequent at heart, and I would be happy to take up that individual legal action if that death is thought to be due to case. negligence, and will he outline the thinking behind that?

Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): Matt Hancock: I will write to the hon. Member with Testing for my constituents in care homes has begun, the full details. but can the Secretary of State tell me when all care home staff and residents will be tested? Secondly, it has Mr Speaker: Wenow go to birthday boy Sir Christopher become apparent that some residents of care homes are Chope. refusing tests due to a fear of what the results could mean. Can he reassure them that getting tested will not Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con) [V]: Will affect their treatment and is the right thing to do, in the my right hon. Friend pay tribute to the owners and best health interests of everyone? managers of care homes who put the safety of their residents first and refused to admit any of the 15,000 Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely—being tested is the hospital patients who had been exposed to covid-19, right thing to do if that is what you are asked to do. It is whom the Government were forcing to be discharged really important. We are rolling out testing both for from hospitals at the end of March? people with symptoms and asymptomatic people, to try to find all the coronavirus in our care homes, to be able Matt Hancock: I say happy birthday to my hon. Friend to trace it and then end this epidemic. and pass on the best wishes, no doubt, of the whole House. The question he raises is a difficult one, because Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) in many cases, the best place for somebody is not in a [V]: This being Mental Health Awareness Week, can we hospital. Indeed, people can catch diseases in hospital, spend some time considering and reflecting on the so it needs to be done on a clinical basis. That is why we mental health impact that the coronavirus pandemic have put in place the testing, isolation procedures and will have on the frontline health and social care workers infection control of people who are leaving hospital to charged with tackling it? In particular, would it not be go into care homes. a great example of the good working of our four Governments if an action plan on mental health was James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: At constructed with the support of all four Governments? the Health and Social Care Committee on 5 May, the Government chief scientific adviser told me: Matt Hancock: The right hon. Gentleman is right to “We need to get on top of it in care homes. We have been clear raise that. This is Mental Health Awareness Week, and about that.” I have front of mind the mental health impacts of He added: coronavirus, particularly on staff but across the board. “What SAGE does is try to distil the scientific advice into a We work closely through the chief medical officers of form that then others need to operationalise and take accountability the four nations of the UK and between Ministers to for”. try to ensure that clinical advice is co-ordinated. After Will the Secretary of State commit to publishing all the all, it is based on the science. I am happy to look at the SAGE advice that his Department has received throughout proposals and discuss them with the CMO. this outbreak about infection control in care homes?

Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con) Matt Hancock: We do regularly publish SAGE advice. [V]: [Inaudible.] Mr Speaker: We now go back to Jane Stevenson. Mr Speaker: We will have to move on to Alyn Smith. Jane Stevenson [V]: [Inaudible.] Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) [V]: We welcome the announcement by the UK Government of a £60,000 Mr Speaker: We tried. Sorry about that. payment for care home workers who sadly lose their 503 19 MAY 2020 Future Relationship with the EU: 504 Negotiations Future Relationship with the EU: it clear that they are sticking to it and we need them to Negotiations get it right. The Government have promised an ambitious, broad, deep and flexible partnership with no tariffs, fees or charges; the safeguarding of workers’ rights; consumer 1.10 pm and environmental protections; and a comprehensive Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab) (Urgent Question): security partnership. Let me push the Minister on those To ask the Minister for the Cabinet office, if he will issues. make a statement on the third round of the negotiations First, on the economy, will the Minister tell the House on the UK’s future relationship with the EU. what concrete progress was made last week on ensuring that British businesses will face no tariffs, fees or quotas The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister on any goods exported to the EU? What assurances can for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): I am grateful for he give to workers with regards to maintaining and this opportunity to update the House on the progress of improving existing labour standards? our negotiations with the European Union. I have today laid a written ministerial statement before the Secondly, on our regulatory framework, leaving the House, which provides a comprehensive update on the European Medicines Agency, the Chemicals Agency and third round of our negotiations with the EU on our the Aviation Safety Agency means new regulatory bodies future relationship. We have also today made public the will need to take on this work. Can the Minister guarantee UK’s draft legal texts. My right hon. Friend the Secretary that they will be up and running by the start of January? of State for International Trade has also published the Thirdly, on research, international collaboration on new tariff schedule that we will operate at the end of scientific research has never been as important as it is the transition period for those countries with which we today. What assurances can the Minister give on our do not have a free trade agreement. future participation in the Horizon research programme? Negotiators from the UK and the EU held full and Fourthly, peace in Northern Ireland was hard won. constructive discussions last week via video conference. We must not jeopardise it. In January, the Prime Minister The talks covered trading goods and services, fisheries, guaranteed unfettered access for goods moving between law enforcement and criminal justice, and other issues, Britain and Northern Ireland. Last week, it was revealed with both sides discussing full legal texts. The discussion that the Government would implement checks on some underlined that a standard comprehensive free trade products crossing the Irish sea and that there would be agreement, alongside other key agreements on issues new infrastructure at ports coming from mainland Britain such as law enforcement, civil nuclear and aviation, all to Northern Ireland. Can the Minister confirm whether in line with the political declaration, could be agreed those additional checks are being planned for when the without major difficulties in the time available. There road map for implementing the protocol will be published? remain, however, some areas where we have significant To conclude, we must not add to the uncertainty difference of principle, notably on fisheries, governance already being experienced right now. We need answers arrangements and the so-called level playing field. The to the questions I have put today. I urge the Minister to EU, essentially, wants us to obey the rules of its club, act in the national interest to get a deal that is good for even though we are no longer members, and it wants the jobs, workers’ rights and scientific co-operation. same access to our fishing grounds as it currently enjoys while restricting our access to its markets. Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her It remains difficult to reach a mutually beneficial questions, which touch on critical issues in these agreement while the EU maintains such an ideological negotiations. We believe that a zero-tariff, zero-quota approach, but we believe that agreement is possible if deal is available; indeed, that is the explicit aim of the flexibility is shown. The agreements that we seek are, of political declaration to which the EU has said it will apply course, built on the precedents of the agreements that its best endeavours. the EU has reached with other sovereign nations. To On working standards, we are confident that we will help facilitate discussions in the fourth round and beyond, continue to remain a leader, in not just Europe but the the Government have today published the full draft world, in workplace protection and the support we give legal text that we have already shared with the Commission to all our citizens. It has been the case all the time we and which, together with the EU’s draft agreement, have been in the EU that we have maintained higher have formed the basis of all discussions. The UK texts standards than other European countries.Indeed, countries are fully in line with the Government’s document entitled, outside the EU, such as Norway, also lead the world in “The Future Relationship with the EU: The UK’sApproach this way. to Negotiations” which was published on 27 February. Copies of the legal text have been placed in the House New regulatory bodies are in the process of being of Commons Library and are also available online at set out to ensure that all businesses have the certainty gov.uk. they need. When it comes to scientific research, we are The Government remain committed to a deal with a committed to collaborating with European and other free trade agreement at its core and we look forward to partners. As the hon. Lady knows, there are countries the fourth round of negotiations beginning on 1 June, outside the EU that take part in the Horizon programme, but success depends on the EU recognising that the UK including, of course, our friends in Israel. is a sovereign equal. The hon. Lady is absolutely right that peace in Northern Ireland is critical, and we will shortly publish a framework Rachel Reeves: We left the European Union at the document on how we intend to implement the protocol end of January and we now have seven months to agree to ensure that we have unfettered access for goods from new arrangements with our nearest neighbours. It was Northern Ireland into Great Britain and that we preserve always a tight timetable, but the Government have made the gains of the peace process. 505 Future Relationship with the EU: 19 MAY 2020 Future Relationship with the EU: 506 Negotiations Negotiations The final point the hon. Lady asked about was certainty. ruled that the European Central Bank had overstepped She said uncertainty was a problem, and indeed it its legitimate competence with its £2 trillion rescue is—uncertainty over Labour’s position. On 2 January, policy. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is now the leader of the Labour party called for a two-year even more essential that we press ahead with negotiations extension to our transition period. In April, he said and end the transition period by the end of this year, so once again that we should extend if necessary. But, then, that we can regain complete control over our money, earlier this month, he turned turtle and said: our borders and our laws and therefore have the flexibility “I’ve not called for a pause”. and the nimbleness in this country to chart our own path Then, on Sunday, the hon. Lady said we “mustn’t rush to recovery post covid-19? this” and that, if the Government need to, they should come back and expand the timetable. So which is it? Is Michael Gove: Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. the Labour party committed to making sure that we Were we to extend the transition period, as some have leave the transition period on the 31st? argued for,including the SNP and, in a previous incarnation, the Leader of the Opposition, we would find ourselves Mr Speaker: Order. Come, come, this is about your paying additional sums to be part of the EU subject to policy, not the Labour policy. You are much better than new laws over which we have no say and without the that. Mr Gove, you have a great future—don’t waste it freedom to regulate our economy in a way to ensure that here. Right, let us move on. We now call William Wragg. our recovery works. LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con): Thank you, Under the single-use plastics directive,the EU is introducing Mr Speaker. Negotiations of this nature are always a range of bands, labelling and extended producer complex, but their resolution tends to be a matter of responsibility on single-use plastics, as the Minister, political will. Will my right hon. Friend tell the House who worked in this area, well knows, which will lead to how much of the apparent impasse is due to practical increased recycling and producers covering the costs. impediments and how much is due to a lack of political In developing our own world-leading environment will? Is he satisfied that his good offices have the capacity, management system, what discussions are we having currently, to make a success of these negotiations? with the EU on its schemes, and when will we inform industry if we plan to align with the EU or to produce Michael Gove: Yes, absolutely.Webelieve that flexibility our own betterment plans, because they need to know on the part of the European Union is in the interests of soon? all, and provided that it moves away from its current ideological fastness, we can secure the progress we need. Michael Gove: Yes, during the happy years that I spent at the Department for Environment, Food and Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) [V]: Rural Affairs, we made strides, as indeed did European What a petit déjeuner de chien! The Government are nations, on improving recycling and reducing the use of wilfully piling a second hammer blow on to an economy single-use plastic. We pay close attention to what is already shattered by covid, in their obsessive pursuit of happening in Europe and elsewhere as we develop our a hard-Brexit agenda and the self-inflicted economic plans, but, in significant areas, our plans are ahead of misery that that will bring on top of a pandemic. Is it where the EU is now. None the less, we want to work not the case that the Government are doing nothing co-operatively because, even though we may be in different other than playing political games with the futures of jurisdictions, we all share one planet. millions of people by pursuing this anti-EU agenda at all costs? As countries in the rest of the world get round Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con) [V]: I congratulate to putting in place their various recoveries, this Government the Prime Minister, the Cabinet Office Minister and will still be blaming Barnier as the good ship Britannia everyone in the negotiating team for robustly resisting hits that Brexit iceberg. Even the Euro dogs on the attempts by the EU to set our laws via its playing-field street know that this Government are making a pig’s ear clauses? Those clauses are not present in any other of the negotiations with their petulant demands and comparable EU trade agreement and are not wanted by their rewriting of agreements, yet it is still all the EU’s the people of Dudley and beyond. May I ask my right fault. For goodness’ sake, for the good of all our hon. Friend to be equally robust in ensuring that the constituents, will the Minister just stop, seek that extension Prime Minister’s commitment to allow goods to flow and engage in these negotiations like a grown-up? freely from Great Britain into Northern Ireland in any future trade agreement with the EU is fulfilled, and, Michael Gove: I am grateful for that intervention. above all, that we shall be ending the transition period The hon. Gentleman read it beautifully; it could almost without extension and on WTO rules if an acceptable have been set to music. However, the point that both of agreement cannot be reached? us have to accept is that we are democrats: we voted democratically to have one United Kingdom, we voted Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right on democratically for that United Kingdom to leave the both areas. We will not be extending the transition European Union and we are honouring both those period and we will be outlining, very shortly,our approach referendum results. I am sure that, on reflection, he would towards a Northern Ireland protocol to make sure that wish to as well. the UK, as a single customs territory, can take advantage of its new freedoms. Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): Over recent weeks, we have seen how the European Union’s response to the Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab) [V]: The Minister unprecedented covid-19 pandemic has been fraught will be aware that an earlier version of the European with internal divisions, as the German Federal Court Union withdrawal Act contained provisions that ring-fenced 507 Future Relationship with the EU: 19 MAY 2020 Future Relationship with the EU: 508 Negotiations Negotiations [Bell Ribeiro-Addy] will he intervene with Her Majesty’sRevenue and Customs to stop it making preparations for new physical inspections workers’ rights, namely a lock on EU-derived workers’ and infrastructure at Northern Ireland ports? rights.That would have meant that, before the Government changed workers’ rights, they would rightly have had to MichaelGove:Myrighthon.Friendmakesaveryimportant consult employer bodies and trade unions. Those measures point. We are one customs territory—the protocol makes were removed and we were told to expect them in an that clear—and we will shortly be publishing further upcoming employment Bill, the details of which we are details about how we intend to ensure that Northern yet to see. Given that the decision made in the UK-EU Ireland benefits from that. trade talks will have a huge impact on UK workers, what is the Minister doing to ensure that there is no Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab) [V]: We know period of time during which workers are left without that county lines—and the exploitation and grooming sufficient rights in law? Very importantly,what discussions of our young people and the knife crime that goes with is he having with trade unions and the TUC to ensure it—is driven by serious organised crime across our that workers are protected? national borders. When I spoke to the National Crime Agency, it was clear that the tools available to it—the European arrest warrant, Europol and other things— Michael Gove: The hon. Lady raises a very important are crucial in its fight against crime. Will the Secretary point. EU law will continue until we choose to alter it, of State clarify what he meant when he told the Lords but it has always been the case, as I mentioned briefly European Union Committee that we may not necessarily earlier, that we have had higher standards of worker have concluded everything on internal security by protection than some other European countries. I enjoy 31 December? Will he reassure the House that we will my discussions with the TUC in order to ensure that be able to continue to fight crime by co-operating this country can continue, as great socialists such as with our colleagues in the EU without interruption after Tony Benn have always proclaimed that we should, 31 December? leading the world, whether inside or outside the EU, in protecting workers’ rights. Michael Gove: Yes, it is the case that we want to have access to all the crime fighting, law enforcement and Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con) [V]: I criminal justice tools that the EU has in order to be able thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and warmly to deal with crime. It is also the case that we cannot welcome the stance that the Government are taking in accept the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice these negotiations, but can he confirm that, whatever as a precondition for so doing. the outcome of these negotiations, we will have control of our own waters? It will be we who decides who has Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con) [V]: The UK access to them, which will mean that fishermen of places is a world leader in workers’ rights and environmental such as Mevagissey and Newquay can look forward to a standards. Does my right hon. Friend agree that they much fairer share of the fish available in UK waters? should be maintained in any future trading relationship with the EU, and in fact with the rest of the world? Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Access to our waters will be on our terms, and the Michael Gove: You betcha—100% correct. beneficiaries of that will be our fisherman in Cornwall and elsewhere. Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) [V]: Following the point well made by the hon. Member for Croydon Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) Central (Sarah Jones), it is not just the wants of our [V]: This morning’s figures for the claimant count show economy but the needs of our society that depend on an alarming rise in the number of people in receipt of these negotiations. As she said, our membership of out-of-work benefits, and we expect that future figures Europol and our access to the European arrest warrant will be still worse. What estimates have the Government are due to lapse unless new arrangements are agreed. made of the likely further rise in those figures if at the Does the Secretary of State agree that it is not enough end of this year we are tackling not just covid-19 but a to bring in migrant flights for critical areas of our no-deal Brexit? economy, but that we need to ensure the safety and security of our society? Will he guarantee that there will be some arrangement that will allow law enforcement in Michael Gove: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman Scotland to access the European arrest warrant and for his question. As he knows, it is a source of sadness Europol? to all of us to see people who want to be at work, not at work. Of course, we need to protect the fragile economy Michael Gove: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, of the island communities that he represents, and we do the distinguished former Cabinet Secretary for Justice so strongly through the power of the Exchequer across in the Scottish Government. We want to co-operate this United Kingdom. We believe that, outside the with all our neighbours on law enforcement, but we European Union, we will have more freedom to protect cannot submit to the jurisdiction of the European Court people in employment, and we will also save some of of Justice. the money that we would have spent on EU membership. Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con) [V]: Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): I believe Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is imperative that the Secretary of State, like me, thinks that the that we leave on 31 December? On 1 January, new customs compliance obligations under the protocol can financial arrangements are coming into the EU. A be implemented without new physical inspections or massive net contribution would already come from the infrastructure at Northern Ireland ports. In that case, UK, but with the rejection of corona bonds and bigger 509 Future Relationship with the EU: 19 MAY 2020 Future Relationship with the EU: 510 Negotiations Negotiations EU budgets, our net contribution would be much bigger, boost to confidence in the global trading system for the and that would hamper our efforts to get our own economy EU and the United Kingdom to reach a trading agreement back on track. in the time available, and is there not an increased responsibility on us to do so, given the covid crisis? Michael Gove: I am very grateful for the question from my hon. Friend. He is absolutely right, and that is Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend is absolutely one of the very important reasons why we need to right. There is a very powerful incentive for the European extricate ourselves from any further payments. I also Union to put the interests of its members and citizens congratulate him on looking so well. I thought for a ahead of ideology. The EU—as, I would hope, a body second that he had become the Member of Parliament that takes its internationalist credentials seriously—would for High Barnet. recognise that it would be a boost not just to its own economy and our economy, but to the world economy Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab) [V]: The and the global trading system if we were to conclude aerospace, shipping, haulage and freight industries a deal. have repeatedly pleaded with the Government to seek arrangements based on evidence, not ideology—in Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) particular, through the Government delivering on their (SNP) [V]: The International Monetary Fund and business commitments to continue participation in the EU’s leaders want the Government to reduce economic aviation safety regulator, and in security and safety uncertainty amid the coronavirus pandemic. Recent polling zones. These sectors have managed under the incredible found that two thirds of the public want an extension to pressure of coronavirus, but clearly they cannot take the transition period. I know that the Minister is not any more strain than they are already under. Will the always fond of expert opinion, but will he heed their Minister listen to the experts and keep the Government’s warnings and buy business precious time to adapt to the promises on the EU’s aviation safety regulator, and on economic headwinds that Brexit will bring? security and safety zones, rather than putting these vital industries at unnecessary risk? Michael Gove: I am very fond of expert opinion, and the universal view of experts is that Scotland operates Michael Gove: The hon. Lady makes a very good the largest deficit of any country in Europe. Were point. We are working with the aviation sector and Scotland to become independent, it would be perilous others to ensure that we can have as seamless a transition for the people of the country that I love, and that is why as possible. the Union that works—the United Kingdom—should endure. Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con) [V]: As I have said previously, I am honoured to represent the Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con) [V]: Does workshop of the United Kingdom, in the communities my right hon. Friend agree that we can only proceed to of Wednesbury, Oldbury and Tipton, but businesses in negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU if the EU my communities are increasingly frustrated by the European recognises that our basic approach to the negotiations is Union’s standoffish approach to the negotiations. Does formed on the mandate of the British people—the same my right hon. Friend share the analysis of business mandate that the people of Stoke-on-Trent Central owners in my constituency that the UK’s ask is a simple gave me and voted for in December? May I also thank one—namely, a free trade agreement in line with the him and the Government for the positive support that agreements that the EU has with other countries—and we have had for the ceramics industry in all the international the EU’s refusal to recognise that is holding up progress trade negotiations? in the talks? Perhaps he could give a message to businesses in my constituency, which are growing increasingly Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. frustrated by the EU’s standoffish approach. The people of Stoke-on-Trent, whom she represents so ably, have consistently voted to leave the European Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He Union and for politicians who have argued that we stands up for the people of West Bromwich and Tipton should leave the European Union, the customs union brilliantly.He and those businesses are right that we need and the single market. In so doing, there will be new to move to a new, precedent-based relationship. opportunities for the ceramics sector, which does so much for our economy. Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab) [V]: Our relationship with the European Union will have significant Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): In economic effects on our country. The Minister will have February this year, the Chancellor of the Duchy of done modelling of the impacts; how many people in the Lancaster admitted that border checks would be inevitable, country will be pushed into poverty as a result of us yet the Prime Minister promised voters that frictionless leaving the European Union? trade with the EU would continue after Brexit. What guarantees—not meaningless assurances—can the Minister Michael Gove: As we leave the European Union, we give, based on negotiations so far, that British businesses have a saving in the amount of money that we currently will be able to export to the EU without any tariffs, fees remit to the EU. That money can be deployed here in and charges when the transition period comes to an the UK, on our NHS and to support the vulnerable. end?

Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): My right hon. Michael Gove: That is the agreement to which the EU Friend will be aware that global trade was contracting committed itself in the political declaration, so I expect before the covid crisis struck. Would it not be a major to hold it to it. 511 Future Relationship with the EU: 19 MAY 2020 Future Relationship with the EU: 512 Negotiations Negotiations Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con) [V]: Does my Michael Gove: When we think of workers’ rights, we right hon. Friend agree that UK control of its own state need to recognise that the fragility of certain sectors of aid regime will be essential as we seek to rebuild our our economy has been exposed by covid-19. I think one economy in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak? Is of the things that we will all want to do is ensure that not this another good reason to ensure that we leave the employers exercise a greater degree of social responsibility. transitional arrangements completely on 31 December? One thing I have been struck by is that of course a flexible labour market can often be a way of providing people with easy access into jobs, but we have productivity Michael Gove: Yes and yes. As a distinguished former problems in this country.Investment in skills and training, Minister in the Department for Exiting the European done in collaboration with the unions and with employers, Union, my right hon. Friend knows whereof he speaks, is something that we should be thinking about for the and he speaks the truth. future, and I think there could be a political consensus behind that across Labour and the Conservatives. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab) [V]: Will the Minister give a guarantee that he will succeed Mr Speaker: That concludes the proceedings on the in protecting vital supply chains, such as those relied on urgent question. I suspend the House for 15 minutes, by Cadbury in my constituency and by Jaguar Land until 1.52 pm. Rover, not least in the light of gloomy economic forecasts and today’s unemployment figures? 1.37 pm Sitting suspended. Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman is a consistent and strong voice for UK manufacturing, and I agree 1.52 pm with him that we need to ensure that supply chains are On resuming, the House entered into hybrid substantive protected. They have taken a battering because of covid-19, proceedings (Order, 22 April). but it is instructive that some automobile manufacturers are talking about reshoring production into the UK BILL PRESENTED because of the advantages of so doing.

PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES BILL Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con) [V]: The Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) rural economy in Brecon and Radnorshire has been hit Minister Chloe Smith, supported by the Prime Minister, hard by covid-19 and the resulting lockdown. Does my the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Priti Patel, right hon. Friend agree that any extension to the transition Michael Gove, Secretary Robert Jenrick, Jesse Norman period would not only cause more uncertainty for rural and Amanda Milling, presented a Bill to make provision businesses but hold the UK economy back further at a about reports of the Boundary Commissions under the time when vital recovery is needed? Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986; to make provision about the number of parliamentary constituencies and Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is a brilliant advocate other rules for the distribution of seats; and for connected for our farmers in the beautiful part of Wales that she is purposes. so lucky to represent, and she is absolutely right that Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time the uncertainty over whether or not we will leave on tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 127) with explanatory 31 December is deeply damaging. I am afraid that the notes (EN-127). uncertainty generated by the Labour party is a problem, because they cannot have their date and eat it. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Three items of business today are designated for remote Division. Mr Speaker’s provisional determination is that remote Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What concrete Divisions will not take place on the motion on human proposals to improve workers’ rights will the Minister tissue, the motion on constitutional law, and the Finance take to these negotiations, which he has just said is his Bill (Ways and Means) motion. ambition? 513 19 MAY 2020 Human Tissue 514

Human Tissue human life is, and we know that the fight against it will continue for some time, while thousands of people will Mr Deputy Speaker: I call the Minister to move the still be waiting for a transplant. I therefore believe very motion. She is asked to speak for no more than 20 minutes. strongly that we have a duty now, more than ever, to push ahead with measures that will reduce human suffering and help people to improve their quality of life. That is 1.53 pm exactly what this law does. The Minister for Care (Helen Whately): I beg to move, We are of course fully aware that public confidence is That the draft Human Tissue (Permitted Material: Exceptions) important. The deemed consent legislation was first (England) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House introduced to the House in July 2017, and became law in on 25 February, be approved. March 2019, so it has had a long process of parliamentary Before I explain the draft regulations, I would like to scrutiny,alongsidethreepublicconsultations.TheGovernment say a few words about why we are changing the law on have been raising awareness of the law and the choices organ donation. Today more than 5,000 people in England available for over a year, and the 20 May implementation are waiting for a transplant, but, sadly, by the time a date has been used actively in communications since late suitable organ is found some people will have become February.Putting this legislation on hold would increase too ill to receive one. Tragically,last year alone 777 patients the anxiety of thousands of people, who see this law as were removed from the transplant list and 400 died waiting their only hope to get a new lease of life, and would for a transplant. There is no option but to take decisive confuse the communications that have already been in action to address the acute shortage of organs and save the public domain for some time. the lives of those waiting for a transplant. That is why From the outset, we have been clear that deemed consent we passed the Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Act would apply only for routine transplants, to increase the 2019, which amends the Human Tissue Act 2004 and number of organs and tissues available and help those sets up the new system of consent for organ and tissue that are on a waiting list. Examples of routine transplants donation in England, which is known as “deemed consent” are heart, kidneys or lungs. Novel transplants will still or “opt-out”. require express consent. The organs and tissues specified I wish to thank the hon. Member for Barnsley Central in the regulations are included because they could be (Dan Jarvis), my hon. Friend the Member for South used for non-routine transplants, such as a face transplant. Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe), my Such transplants are outside the scope of what we want right hon. Friends the Members for Maidenhead to achieve. Demand for novel transplants is very low, (Mrs May) and for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), a and people would not normally identify organ donation previous Member of this House, Geoffrey Robinson, with them. and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath for their work and During formal scrutiny of the regulations, the Joint support, which has got us to where we are today. They Committee on Statutory Instruments cleared the regulations all started this journey for us showing immense leadership, with no comments. Meanwhile, the Secondary Legislation and they continue to show their strong commitment to Scrutiny Committee drew the regulations to the attention this cause. of the House, and this is testimony to how integral the Subject to approval of these regulations, we aim for regulations are for making the new system of consent deemed consent to become legal on 20 May. While not work, and how important the law change will be when it many transplants are taking place earlier, during the is introduced. peak of covid-19, NHS Blood and Transplant has already Let me now discuss the detail of the regulations. The started the recovery process to get transplant units up Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Act 2019 sets out and running as much as possible. Guidance on how best that deemed consent to transplant activities in England to restart or extend the transplant service was sent by will apply only to permitted material. The Secretary of NHSBT to all transplant units on 26 April. A letter was State has a delegated power to specify in regulations then sent on 1 May to all trusts with transplant units, what relevant material—meaning, what organs, tissue asking them to actively review the situation where transplant and cells—will be excluded from the system of deemed units have reduced their services. consent. To clarify, the organs, tissues and specific cells To illustrate the progress that is being made to get the that are listed in the draft statutory instrument are transplant system up and running again, on a normal organs, tissues and cells that cannot be transplanted day NHS Blood and Transplant would have received without express consent being in place, as that would be about 55 referrals of a potential donor and would aim a novel transplant. for five actual donors, and it would carry out about Regulation 2(2) sets out the detailed list of organs 70 transplants a week. During the peak of the pandemic, and tissues that will require express consent in order to there were days when there were no referrals, many days be transplanted under all circumstances—such as the when there were no donors, and many days when there brain, spinal cord and face. As a result of our consultation, were no transplants. As of last week, there have been we expanded the list of reproductive organs and tissues 167 referrals, 11 donors and 38 transplants. Continuing in this regulation, to provide clarity and put it beyond the tremendous effort to restore all transplant services doubt that removing any parts of a reproductive organ will enable us to reap the benefits of the deemed consent will require express consent in all cases. This is to ensure legislation as soon as possible; by “benefits” I mean save that if and when such transplants are carried out in the lives of people waiting for transplants. future in the UK, they will be outside the scope of I understand that some have disagreed with the timing deemed consent. of going ahead with this law, but we assessed the impact Regulation 2(3) sets out that some relevant material—for of going ahead with deemed consent very carefully. example, skin or bone—will require express consent if This horrific pandemic taught us a lot about how precious used for a novel transplant, but not if used for a routine 515 Human Tissue 19 MAY 2020 Human Tissue 516

[Helen Whately] Mr Deputy Speaker: Just before I call Alex Norris, I advise those waiting to take part in the debate that there transplant. This is to ensure that current practices for is a 10-minute limit on contributions, so could they please tissue donation, under which tissue from a leg, for have a timing device available? example, is removed routinely, are not disrupted by deemed consent. So, although a leg transplant would 2.3 pm require express consent, if only the skin from a leg is Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): I have taken, deemed consent may apply; however, if tissue is to say that I am used to clearing rooms when I start required from reproductive organs, this will always require speaking, but this is quite impressive even by my own express consent. That addresses the feedback from our standards. Nevertheless, it is a privilege to make my consultation. debut at the Dispatch Box as shadow public health Regulation 2(4) allows for the trachea to be removed Minister on a topic as important as this one. Currently, under deemed consent when it is attached to the lungs. everything we are addressing is a matter of life and This is to allow routine heart and lung transplants, death, but when we are talking about critical transplants, which also require the trachea to be removed with the that could never be clearer. heart and lungs, to continue under deemed consent. I thank the Minister for everything she is doing However, the trachea is also listed in regulation 2(2), as during this crisis, not only on this particular issue but trachea transplants by themselves are novel and therefore on everything related to protecting us from the coronavirus. excluded from deemed consent. She and her ministerial colleagues are working around Regulation 2(5) excludes the removal of certain cells the clock and have been doing so for weeks; we appreciate if they are to be used for advanced therapy medicinal that. products—also known as ATMPs—which are therapies This is my first opportunity to express publicly in this made from tissue cells or genes after manipulation in a place my thanks to our NHS and social care staff for all laboratory. They are used for treatment of a disease or the wonderful things that they are doing in my community injury, and often use human tissues and cells as starting and communities up and down the country to keep us materials. For example, an ATMP can treat knee damage as safe as possible. by taking cartilage cells from a living patient, growing We clap with you on a Thursday, but we think about and modifying them in a lab, and re-injecting them into you always and we are really grateful for everything you the patient’s knee. are doing. ATMPs are an exciting technology, and new therapies The transplant of organs and human tissue changes are being developed all the time. Current ATMPs are and saves lives. It brings hope, it can bring happiness being developed using tissue and cells taken from living and it is the ultimate altruistic act. The Organ Donation donors, but it is also possible to use material from (Deemed Consent) Act 2019 promises a significant deceased donors to develop novel ATMPs. As such breakthrough in the ability to save and change lives. ATMPs are novel, we want to make sure that the Those who campaigned for it spotted the public mood donation of such cells cannot happen without express and understood the British people on this issue. However, consent being in place. Our consultation raised questions a key part of understanding that fundamental desire of about the public’sunderstanding of such novel technologies, the British people to do well by each other is to understand so we want to ensure that express consent is required. that this change has to hold within reasonable limits. It is therefore right that we are completing the process Now that I have set out the detail of the regulations, I today and setting out clearly the sort of tissue that goes must highlight that before deciding whether a change to beyond routine transplantation. That is a critical part the regulations would be needed in future, the Government of maintaining public confidence in the process. would need to consider evidence, public acceptability The Opposition supported the Act during its progress and clinical need, guided by recommendations from and we support the regulations before us today. We have NHSBT’s advisory group research and innovation in many people to thank for last year’s Act. I will start by transplants. Any changes would need to be approved by thanking Geoffrey Robinson, the former MP for Coventry Parliament, following the same procedure as we are North West, for introducing the Bill. His legacy in this now, so Parliament would have full oversight. The place is significant on a number of issues, and this regulations restrict deemed consent to routine transplants, legislation will certainly have long-lasting and far-reaching so they continue current practice, under which express implications. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member consent needs to be in place for non-routine transplants. for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) for taking up the There is no additional cost to the health system, so no baton in 2019 and getting the legislation over the finishing impact assessment has been prepared. line—he continues to be an excellent champion of the In conclusion, I am glad that I am able to present Act, and I think we will hear from him shortly—and, in these regulations to the House today. They are an the other place, the noble Lord Hunt for his stewardship important part of the implementation of the 2019 Act, of the legislation. as they prevent deemed consent from applying to novel Of course, I also pay tribute to Max Johnson and transplants. The new system of consent will help to save Keira Ball, after whom the Bill was known. Keira and improve the lives of many people waiting for a tragically died in a road accident, but her heart saved transplant. Donating organs is one of the greatest gifts Max’s life at age nine, after an eight-month wait. They a person can give. I urge everybody to talk to their are truly inspirational and a huge part of why we are families and their loved ones about their wishes. I am here today, as indeed is everyone who supported the proud that all of us present are playing a part in making campaign, not least the Daily Mirror and its readers. something positive happen in these very challenging Each and every supporter has helped to bring us here times. I commend the draft regulations to the House. today to do this important job. 517 Human Tissue 19 MAY 2020 Human Tissue 518

It is impossible to talk about anything, especially something specifically different to reach those communities anything health related, without referencing the coronavirus experiencing the most unequal outcomes. For that reason, outbreak and its effect on all aspects of our lives. I would like to press the Minister on something her However, it is particularly pertinent when we talk about colleague in the other place said yesterday. He said that transplants, so I will touch on it now before getting into the Government would be following up with an awareness the substance of the regulations. From 1 April to 10 May, campaign aimed at BAME audiences. Can the Minister 155 transplants took place in the UK from deceased give a firm commitment today that this will take place, donors. In the previous year, that figure was 404, a drop tell us when it might happen and critically—I had this of more than 60%. There have been no transplants at all conversation frequently during my time in local from living donors, which usually make up close to a government—confirm that it will be developed by BAME fifth of the total, and current waiting list figures will not communities, rather than on their behalf? If it is to be accurately reflect the need that may have been created effective, it will have to be different from how it has been for organ transplant due to the pandemic, which will in the past. only cause greater strain in future months. A key aim of the 2019 Act, which the regulations will, I do not say these things to criticise the Government. I hope, supplement today, was to reach an 80% consent Kidney transplants are the most common form of rate in England. This will take time but certainly seems transplants, and in answer to a written question, the possible. In Wales, where the opt-out mechanism was Minister for Care shared with me the fact that the early implemented by the Welsh Labour Government in 2015, data show that both dialysis patients and those who are the consent rate has risen from 58% to 77%. In England, immunosuppressed through a transplant are more we start from a base line of 67%, so we are better vulnerable to covid-19. The fact that transplants have placed, and if we reach the target, we are talking about been taking place at all therefore suggests that decisions as many as 700 more transplants a year—700 lives that are being made on the balance of need and on a can be extended, transformed or saved. The Minister case-by-case basis, an approach that I think we would has been challenged on the timing of the regulations—I all support. However, we know that, as the Minister have reflected on that question myself—but that number said, patients were dying on the transplant waiting list seems a strong reason to push on. As she says, the even before the outbreak because the supply of donor recent weeks and months have shown us how precious organs failed to meet the demand. Fewer transplants human life is and that we should not waste moments if quite simply means that the mortality rate will increase. we can improve lives. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact Yesterday, the noble Lord Bethell told the other place of covid-19 on the mortality of patients waiting for that the restoration of all transplant services would transplants, and what plans do the Government have to include training nurses on the new law as soon as deal with the increasing backlog? I have raised this issue possible after they return. I would be keen to know a bit with her colleague, the Minister for primary care and more about that. It was not something we had heard of public health, in relation to cancer and have not yet before, and we would want a sense of the scale of that heard clear answers. We need to know what efforts the and the precise timeline the Government are expecting. Government will be making to deal with the bubble As I said, the Opposition are happy with the regulations challenges that will be coming through the system in as laid, but I seek to make three points. First and future weeks and months. The Minister in the other foremost, we agree that deemed consent should only place talked yesterday about a tremendous effort to apply to routine transplants. This is a matter of ensuring restore transplant services. Will this Minister take the that public policy going forward matches the public’s opportunity today to outline what the recovery plan is expectation. I share the Government’s view that this likely to look like and what the timeframes will be? would not reflect rare or novel procedures, including to At the beginning of the coronavirus crisis we all create advanced therapy medicinal products, taking place talked of it as a great leveller and said that the virus without explicit consent. I will reflect on those ATMPs would not recognise our differences, but we have seen in in a couple of seconds. the weeks and months since just how much that is not Secondly, I welcome the Government’s response to the case. The coronavirus has exposed what many the consultation on the statutory instrument. Following Opposition Members have said for many years. Britain the responses received, they have rightly revised the is an unequal country, across regions, across gender and regulations with additional clarifications on tissues from across protected characteristics. These inequalities are sexual and reproductive organs, which will not be subject terrible for our nation’s health, and tackling them must to deemed consent. That is particularly welcome. It is be a post-covid priority. nice—I dare say even novel—to see a Government The black, Asian or minority ethnic community suffers consultation leading to such concrete changes. It is a particularly when it comes to transplants. In 2018, good thing and long may it continue. 21% of those who died waiting for transplants were Thirdly, the Government indicated in their response from a black, Asian or minority ethnic group. There is a to the consultation that they do not expect the list of higher chance of a successful transplant if the organ accepted tissue to need regular updates, and I agree comes from an individual of the same ethnic background, with that in principle. The Minister mentioned how a but that means that those from black or Asian backgrounds process might happen if things were to be revised later, currently wait six to 11 months longer for an organ but I would like to understand a bit more about what match. This inequality will not do, and there have to be would have to change for her to start such a process. practical things to change it, starting immediately. The On those rare and novel transplants, it is important culture change that the Minister talked about is at the that public policy matches what people expect from the heart of that—us all having those conversations with legislation, but we should be proud that the UK leads our loved ones—but we know that we have to be doing the world on such transplants. It is a good sign of the 519 Human Tissue 19 MAY 2020 Human Tissue 520

[Alex Norris] a new heart, whose story touched so many of us. Keira and Max’s story showed the many human sides of the health of our country in this regard. They are not campaign to bring about the change in the law. currently included under deemed consent, but developing The NHS estimates that 3,544 people are awaiting a these new technologies and techniques enables us to transplant in the UK today, and in the last month, save more lives. We lead the way in both development 186 have received a transplant. Too many lives have and implementation. Wehave pioneered the OCS—organ been tragically cut short because donors were not available, care service—heart system, a portable device that can or the transplant was not received in time. However, we preserve a donor heart in a near-normothermic beating are lucky that science has allowed organ transplantation state until it is transplanted, which is currently being to overcome technical limitations and become the life-saving used in three heart transplant centres in the NHS and is success it is today. being introduced in a fourth. We have also shown that From tomorrow, the new opt-out system in England abdominal organs can be assessed and their function will provide a lifeline for hundreds of people desperately improved using normothermic regional perfusion in need of a transplant. Indeed, with this change, more technology. As is the aim with this legislation, these people will receive a vital organ to reunite them with developments can save lives, and we should be proud of their loved ones and allow them, in most cases, to lead that, but we should not rest on our laurels, so could an ordinary life. Of course, there are legitimate concerns the Minister reaffirm the Government’s commitment about the timing of this change, patient safety and to continuing the UK as a leader in this regard and to whether we should allow an opt-out in the midst of an providing the necessary funding to transplant units to epidemic. It is fair to say that no one saw this coming, at ensure they can take advantage? least not to this extent. But for many patients who have I turn now to resources, because what we are agreeing been on the waiting lists for a kidney or another vital today, though very important, will have resource organ, the change could not come any sooner. implications for us to pick up. An increase in the number of transplants will necessitate increased support for As the Minister said, and as my hon. Friend the families who lose loved-ones. It is a difficult and emotional Member for Nottingham North (Alex Norris) emphasised, experience for them, and they will require high-skilled patient safety must come first. Those with symptoms of care and support, so what extra support will be available coronavirus or any other life-threatening impediment for them as these numbers increase? will need to be sifted out. I seek further reassurances from the Minister that extra precautions are in place to Similarly, we will need specialist nurses for donation, reassure my constituents that any organ transplant not just for the direct care but for the implementation, conducted during this time will be appropriately screened. providing advice and support to families and playing If confidence is lost in this new system, vital donors the vital role of determining what the deceased’s last from a wide range of groups may be lost because they known decision was, so that no procedures take place do not feel safe. without the appropriate consent. As I say, the Minister in the other place yesterday mentioned specialist training. We must understand that some communities are Could the Minister here today expand further on that? apprehensive about the donation of their organs, which I welcome the Government’s commitment to ensure can be due to cultural and religious sensitivities around that there are enough staff to do this. Will the Minister the displacement of organs from the body. There is also also commit to providing the additional funding required a low uptake among ethnic minorities with particular to ensure that the required increase in specialist nurses blood types. The NHS estimates that over 1,800 black, continues in line with the increase in transplants, so that Asian and ethnic minorities are currently on the waiting they are not having to be begged or borrowed from list for a transplant. Last year, 900 ethnic minorities other parts of the service? received a donation from a deceased donor, and only 114 ethnic minorities donated their organs after they We support these regulations. This is the next staging had passed away. The sad truth is that ethnic minorities point in a really important journey. It will make a tend to wait significantly longer for a successful match difference to hundreds and hundreds of lives—lives of than other patients. In the light of tomorrow’s change people who are completely unaware that these discussions in the law, more awareness building needs to be done, to are even taking place today, not knowing that they will emphasise the importance of organ donation within need this. This is the right thing to do and the right time ethnic minority communities. Although those numbers to do it, and we support the regulations. will naturally rise, it is important that the Government 2.15 pm do more to encourage vital donors to stay on the list. Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab) [V]: I Tomorrow’s change in the law is a welcome and long- would first like to pay tribute to my predecessor, the overdue step. It was a hard-fought campaign and an former Member for Coventry North West, Geoffrey example of the House coming together,and I will continue Robinson, whose life-saving private Member’s Bill will to champion this issue, like my predecessor. Overall, this lead to significant changes in the way we approach organ is for the hundreds of people awaiting transplants across donation. Geoffrey has said that it was one of his proudest England who will receive a life-changing and life-saving achievements, and I am sure that Members across the transplant that will allow them to live their lives. House will join me in wishing him well in his retirement. Through the hard work and determination of 2.19 pm campaigners and Members from across the House and Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]:[Inaudible.] the support of the Government, the Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Act is now law. I commend the Daily Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We have no Mirror for its awareness campaign and for raising support audio, so we will go to Jim Shannon while we check for Max Johnson, a young boy who desperately needed that out. 521 Human Tissue 19 MAY 2020 Human Tissue 522

2.20 pm Northern Ireland Assembly will follow the lead of this Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) [V]: Thank you, place on the opt-out issue. The figures for transplants in Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to raise a few Northern Ireland were way above and beyond what thoughts. The House may not be aware that my nephew, they normally are, so again this shows the good that can Peter, had a kidney replacement when he was a child, happen as a result of where we are. and that is one of the main reasons I have avidly We are pleased to see this legislation, but is clear that supported organ donation. My family would have been there must not be an end to the duty of care. We must devastated had that organ not been donated to save also be sure to invest in new technology. There are new Peter’s life. I also absolutely believe that there must be machines which, I am told, have shown great promise the ability for someone to opt out if they have their own in preserving or even reconditioning donated organs. reasons for doing so, whether those are religious or That must be investigated by the Department. Will the otherwise. Minister, in her summing up, give the House some I commend the hon. Member for Barnsley Central indication of how that will work and an update on (Dan Jarvis) for what he has done—we look forward to those new machines and any other innovations in medicines his contribution—and I commend the former Member, for the future? Geoffrey Robinson; I was very happy to support and It is also imperative to ensure that regular monitoring sign his Bill and we will see some of that become law is carried out and that the impact of the new law is tomorrow. I thank the Minister for her contribution reported back to the House. Again I look to the Minister and for bringing this statutory instrument forward—we for those assurances, because we will doing this from are really pleased to see it. I also thank the shadow tomorrow, and the House will need to know how it is Minister for his contribution, which was very ably put progressing and whether we are achieving the figures together. and stats that we should be achieving. It is also essential that we have education for healthcare staff and the I will focus on one aspect of this draft legislation for public. Increasing transplantation requires appropriately organ donation. Three million people in the UK have trained staff working with families, who will still need chronic kidney disease, including some 1,000 children, to allow a donation to take place. This will require and 65,000 people are being treated for kidney failure comprehensive, consistent and continuous education by dialysis or transplant. In the UK, 6,044 people are for members of the public and healthcare staff, and on the transplant list, and 4,737 are awaiting kidneys. these things need to happen as soon as is practicable. That was data from the end of 2019, as the transplant Previously agreed funding for NHS Blood and Transplant’s programme is currently part-suspended. At least one work should be made available for this work, and I ask person a day will die because they have waited too long. the Minister for an update on where we are in relation Eight out of 10 people waiting are hoping for a kidney. to that. NHS Blood and Transplant estimated that this change in the law has the potential to lead to 700 more transplants Adequate system capacity is needed to permit transplant each year by 2030—700 lives that can be changed, and procedures, as well as a culture that sees organ donation 700 lives that can be saved. This may have to be extended as the norm. I would love to see that happening. Perhaps by a year because of the pandemic. after tomorrow we will see some of that taking place. There were already concerns, prior to covid-19, about When kidneys fail, three things happen: dialysis, a pressure on theatre space, equipment and staff to cope transplant or death. Dialysis is distressing and demanding, with an increase in organ availability, including specialist with four to five-hour sessions three days a week and organ donation nurses to support bereaved families. dietary and fluid restrictions. Many of my constituents Modelling for the estimated additional transplants has have had to go through this, as my nephew did for a been done, and NHS trusts have been asked to plan period of time. People are often unable to continue to accordingly. That will need to be revisited as trusts work. Families and relationships are strained and depression emerge from the current crisis, and I am sure that the is common. It has been reported that the levels of pain Minister will be all over that. In order for organ donation are equivalent to those of people with terminal cancer. to be able to continue in the covid-19 age, support and Patients are exhausted, with aching bones, reduced mobility discussion with bereaved families must be facilitated and constant itching. A transplant is transformational more than ever. We welcome the strengthened role for in restoring quality and quantity of life, and we recognise families in the code of practice, and we thank the the selfless generosity of organ donors, both living and Minister for bringing that forward. Technology must be deceased. We commend NHS Blood and Transplant on harnessed to aid those vital conversations. its achievements; more than 50,000 people are alive with I concur with the shadow Minister’s comments about transplants in the UK. BAME communities. Covid-19 has brought the need to Kidney transplantation is also economically beneficial. address the health inequalities faced by BAME communities I know that it is not always a good thing to look at the into sharp relief. There is too much inequality in transplant economics and the financial aspect, but a transplant has deaths. In 2018, 21% of the people who died waiting for a cost of £5,000 per annum, compared with a cost of a transplant were from black, Asian or minority ethnic £30,800 per annum for dialysis, so there is a financial groups. People from BAME communities wait six months factor that we need to bear in mind. for an organ despite being more at risk of kidney I am so pleased that this SI means that even during failure, because fewer organs are available from donors this crisis we are continuing and prioritising the ability in those communities. There is a higher chance of a to donate kidneys and other organs. I congratulate the successful transplant if the organ comes from an individual Government, the Minister and the Opposition on pushing from the same ethnic background, and it is important this issue. There were 28 transplants in Northern Ireland that those groups are the particular focus of awareness last month, so I pay tribute to the team there. This campaigns. Will the Minister give us her thoughts on legislation is tremendous news and I hope that the that as well? 523 Human Tissue 19 MAY 2020 Human Tissue 524

[Jim Shannon] Most of all, though, I would like to thank Max Johnson, his mother Emma, and the family of Keira Ball. For We welcome the revised codes of practice having a those who may not be familiar with it, as stories go greater focus on faiths and beliefs. We believe that that there are few more powerful than Max and Keira’s. will support better conversations and give greater assurances Keira Ball was nine years old when, tragically, she died. to families when a potential donor’s faith or belief is an Despite the unimaginable grief, Keira’s parents bravely important part of that decision making. It is important and selflessly chose to donate her organs, including her that we have that, and we thank the Government for heart, to a young boy, Max Johnson, who was in urgent putting it into the code of practice. need of a transplant. Max recovered from his operation I was pleased by the outcome of the consultation on and has been a tireless champion of the new opt-out the organs—[Inaudible.]—that deemed consent should system for organ donation. Tomorrow will be a very special apply to so-called routine transplants only, and that any day for many people, but for Max it will be especially rare or novel transplants should be subject to explicit poignant. consent. The statutory instrument is therefore limited. I am extremely proud to have worked with Geoffrey What we are talking about are routine transplants for and with others to take Max and Keira’s law through heart, lung, liver, kidney, intestinal organs, small bowel, Parliament. I would like briefly to reflect on the reasons stomach, abdominal wall, colon, spleen or cornea. I believe that it is so important. First and foremost, this This SI is important. I absolutely agree with Kidney law is about saving lives. We are all, I know, extremely Care UK when it says that our NHS staff will be grateful for the outstanding job that NHS Blood and exhausted and that resources have been stretched by the Transplant does. In the year to this April, there were pandemic and are likely to be for some time. However, 3,763 organ transplants from deceased donors, in addition we urge efforts to take forward implementation at the to 970 living donations. Yet despite the incredible efforts appropriate time to give renewed hope to patients waiting made, demand for organs heavily outweighs supply. Last for a life-transforming transplant. We say thank you so year, as the Minister reflected on, more than 400 people much and well done to the Minister, her team and died while waiting for a transplant and hundreds more everyone concerned. were suspended from the waiting list after becoming too ill to undergo the operation they so desperately Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Thank you, needed. There are currently about 5,000 people in the Jim Shannon. Wewill now try again with Dan Jarvis—can UK who, just like Max was, are living under a cloud of we hear you? uncertainty, waiting and hoping for an operation that will save their life. 2.29 pm One of the many devastating knock-on consequences of the coronavirus crisis is the impact it has had on Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): Thank you, those in need of an organ transplant. Operations have Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to be called in this been postponed and the number of people dying while debate—and hopefully to be heard. waiting for a transplant has sharply risen. The coronavirus From tomorrow, as we have heard, changes to the is putting huge extra strain on a system already under organ donation system following the implementation of pressure. the Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Act 2019, more As well as offering hope to families, I believe that commonly known as Max and Keira’s law, come into Max and Keira’s law will also benefit society by helping effect. This means that every adult in England will be to bring people together. The decision that Keira’s considered to be a donor unless they opt out or are parents took was an act of compassion that represents excluded. This new law has the potential to save hundreds the best of humanity—a lesson in solidarity from which of lives every year. For all those desperately waiting for we can all learn. We must be mindful, however, that the a transplant, the efficacy of these changes is literally a new organ donation system will not in itself be a silver- matter of life and death. We owe it to them to ensure bullet solution. We all still need to play our part. We that it is a success. know that this law will improve the consent rate. The I would like briefly to pay tribute to the constructive devolved Government in Wales introduced their opt-out spirit in which the Government approached the Bill system in December 2015. The result was stark: Wales from the outset, and to all those without whom the now has the highest consent rate of any UK nation at campaign to change the law would not have succeeded. 77%, up from 58% five years ago. First and foremost, my friend and former colleague However, if we are going to make a success of the Geoffrey Robinson, formerly of this parish, showed new system, NHS Blood and Transplant will require real leadership in promoting the Bill from the outset. additional capacity to deal with an increase in donors. The former Health Minister, the hon. Member for That means that the Government must ensure that our Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), was brilliant throughout NHS trusts have the resources they need to perform the the passage of the Bill, as were the right hon. Members operations, to support the donors and their families, for Maidenhead (Mrs May) and for South West Surrey and to care for the patients after their transplants. (Jeremy Hunt), my right hon. Friend the Member for This also includes the medical staff, so they understand Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), the current Secretary the new system and encourage bereaved families to talk, of State, and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. Alison Phillips, understand and support their loved one’s wishes. The the editor of the Daily Mirror, and her fantastic team Government must also maintain their support for the also championed this cause and very helpfully raised public awareness campaign, so that the changes are public awareness. Kidney Care UK provided outstanding widely understood and everybody knows that the choice support during the campaign and continues to provide to donate is still yours to make. Donors should know outstanding support to ensure that Max and Keira’s law that they will be treated with dignity and respect, and will be a success. the family of the deceased will still be involved. 525 Human Tissue 19 MAY 2020 Human Tissue 526

I am very aware of the Department of Health and happened during the pandemic. We are determined to Social Care’s work, including with the National Black, see transplant units become fully operational as soon as Asian and Minority Ethnic Transplant Alliance and the possible. Most transplant units are working on their launch of the community investment scheme, but it is plans to reopen or to increase services if they have stayed essential that we continue to direct our efforts into open, and I expect to see a rapid ramping up of their BAME communities, which are often most affected. activity. Nearly a third of those on the active transplant list are The hon. Gentleman asked about specialist nurses, from black, Asian or ethnic minority backgrounds, and and I can confirm that specialist nurses have indeed it is members of that community who also wait longer been recruited and have training ongoing in, for instance, for operations. Improving education and raising awareness the principles of this legislation and in practical sessions is important so that everyone has an equal chance, on the conversations and approaches to families. I am regardless of their ethnicity, of having a life-saving happy to come back to him separately with some further transplant. detail about that work. We also all have a responsibility to record our choice The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Members for on the NHS’s organ donor register and, crucially, to tell Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Coventry North our loved ones what our intentions are. The coronavirus West (Taiwo Owatemi) made very important points has left thousands of families in mourning, shattered about BAME communities. It is clearly of great concern our economy and upended our entire way of life. Good that there is reduced access to organs for transplant, news is in short supply, but the implementation of Max with a shortage particularly of donor organs for some and Keira’s law affords us a rare glimmer of hope—the people in BAME communities. We really want this law hope that more lives will be saved and the hope that we, to address some of those very concerning health inequalities. too, can act with decency and empathy, even in the Specifically, black and Asian people wait on average worst of times. Thank you to all those who made it about 11 months and six months longer, respectively, happen. for an organ match than the rest of the population. That is absolutely something that this legislation should Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Thank you, and must address. Dan Jarvis. We were the better for hearing, as well as seeing you. Please send our very best wishes for a long The hon. Member for Nottingham North asked about and healthy future to Max. communications to BAME communities, because that is crucial for the success of this change. I should say to him that there has been specific funding to BAME and 2.36 pm faith groups to raise awareness within their communities, Helen Whately: May I welcome the hon. Member for but I agree that more must be done to make sure that Nottingham North (Alex Norris) to his place on the this is successful. Front Bench and say how very good it is to see him The hon. Member for Coventry North West asked about there? I thank him for his kind words at the beginning screening for covid-19. There are two sides to this. First, of his speech and for his constructive tone in this a registry has been set up to monitor covid cases among debate. I look forward to that in our future conversations. those waiting for a transplant, and, secondly, I have I also welcome all the helpful and constructive comments been assured that the organs of those who have covid we have heard from those who have been able to contribute would not be donated and used for transplant. to the debate today remotely and the work of all of those who have been involved in getting this legislation I was also asked about the resources to fund this, and on to the statute book. I can say that of course we will make sure that the NHS has the resources it needs to be able to carry out these As I said in opening the debate, thousands of people crucial transplants. up and down the country are in desperate need of a transplant. While covid-19 has completely stopped It is important that this legislation is approved to transplant services in some countries, we have been able provide legal certainty that deemed consent will apply to continue with very urgent transplants, and that is only to the routine transplants that so many people in testament to the great work of NHS Blood and Transplant this country need. I want to thank everyone who has and NHS England. We now want to go further, and we spoken and contributed to the work on these regulations. must increase the availability of organs for transplant, The regulations are an integral part of making the new which this important legislation will allow us to do, system of consent work, and I would urge all my fellow especially at a time when covid-19 has taught us so parliamentarians to approve them. We owe it to everyone much about how fragile life is. waiting for a transplant to make sure that Max and Keira’s law comes into force and makes a difference to I should say that patient safety and the involvement all those who are waiting for a transplant. of the family in discussions about organ donation will remain absolutely a paramount consideration, and we will keep raising awareness of the importance of organ Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I announced donation. The communication campaign from NHS Blood to the House earlier this afternoon my provisional and Transplant has seen awareness as high as 62% of determination that a remote Division would not take the population at the height of the campaign, and that place on the question now before the House. This is also must go further. We must continue tackling some of the my final determination. myths about organ donation. Question put and agreed to. Coming to some specific questions and points made Resolved, by other Members, the hon. Member for Nottingham That the draft Human Tissue (Permitted Material: Exceptions) North asked about the recovery plan following covid-19 (England) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House and the unavoidable reduction in transplants that has on 25 February, be approved. 527 19 MAY 2020 Constitutional Law 528

Constitutional Law police officers can be compelled to contribute towards the cost of support services for such victims. In the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We come now event of a non-payment of a restitution order, the to the motion on constitutional law. I call Douglas Ross Scottish Government were to enforce payment through to move the motion. The Minister is asked to speak for a deduction in sums from benefits where appropriate. no more than 20 minutes. However, social security schemes for making deductions from benefits are not within the executive competence of Scottish Ministers. 2.43 pm The Criminal Justice Act 1991 introduces a process The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland whereby fines can be collected through certain benefits. (Douglas Ross): I beg to move, This order therefore amends Section 24 of the 1991 Act That the draft Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Act 2014 by referencing the restitution order and indicating that (Consequential Modification) Order 2020, which was laid before it should be treated in the same way as a fine for the this House on 25 March, be approved. purposes of that section. This facilitates the Scottish I start by reminding the House that my wife is a Government’s aim by allowing the recovery of the penalty serving police officer in Scotland—a police sergeant in via deduction from an offender’s benefits. Moray—which clearly relates to the business in front of The process for collecting the restitution order from us today. an offender’s benefits will follow the same process as May I take the opportunity, for the first time at the for other fines or compensation orders. These are Dispatch Box, to welcome the hon. Member for Edinburgh predominantly means-tested benefits such as income South (Ian Murray) to his role as shadow Scottish support and universal credit. The 1991 Act gives the Secretary, and the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Secretary of State the power to introduce a process Elmore) as the shadow Under-Secretary of State for whereby courts can apply for a deduction from an Scotland? I look forward to working with them both in offender’s benefits to pay for a fine or compensation the weeks and months ahead. order through what is called a deduction from benefits May I also send our best wishes to the shadow order. Scottish Secretary’s predecessor, the hon. Member for Once the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service has Rochdale (Tony Lloyd)? All of us in this House were secured a deduction from benefits order, the Department extremely concerned when he spent 25 days in Manchester for Work and Pensions will recover the restitution order Royal Infirmary. He is a great servant to this House and on behalf of the courts in Scotland by direct deduction his community, and we wish him continued success as from an offender’s benefits. The funds collected will be he recovers from coronavirus. transferred to the restitution fund, which will be held I am grateful for the opportunity to debate this order. and managed by the Scottish Government, although Police officers and staff are on the frontline each and functions can be delegated to a third party. every day protecting the public. Members will likely The fund will directly benefit police officers and have seen some media reports showing that, in the first police staff by securing the provision of any type of three weeks of the current restrictions, police in Scotland treatment which is intended to benefit the physical or recorded more than 100 coronavirus-related attacks mental wellbeing of the victim. Examples of this include and threats aimed at officers. These included officers the police treatment centres in Auchterarder and Harrogate, being spat at or deliberately coughed on. Attacks against where treatment ranges from physiotherapy to psychological our officers and staff are deplorable and completely wellbeing, unacceptable, and this order facilitates police officers in Scotland in receiving the support they need should that The territorial extent and application of this instrument ever happen. This will be quite a technical speech about is England, Wales and Scotland. The territorial application the orders and the legislation in front of us, but we is required as the courts in Scotland need to be able to should always remember that behind this important make the deduction from benefits order, and agencies in order are our police officers and staff who are unacceptably England, Scotland and Wales may need to carry out the being attacked in Scotland, and we must do everything processes to ensure that the deductions are made. In we can to prevent that. addition, it provides for the collection of the restitution This order is part of the Government’s ongoing orders imposed on offenders who move from Scotland commitment to devolution and is made in consequence to one of the other two territories after conviction, and of the Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Act 2014, it also provides for those who reside in England and which I shall refer to as the 2014 Act, and has been Wales but committed the offence in Scotland and were requested by the Scottish Government. This order is therefore tried by a Scottish court. made under section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, To summarise, this instrument facilitates the recovery which allows for necessary or expedient legislative provision of the Scottish restitution order by deductions from an in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. In offender’s benefits in appropriate cases. The order only this case, provision is required in consequence of the gives Scottish Ministers the necessary powers to apply aforementioned 2014 Act. to the Secretary of State for a deductions from benefit Through the 2014 Act, the Scottish Government order; it does not set the policy. That is, of course, a sought to increase the support available to victims and matter for the Scottish Government, under the scrutiny witnesses of crime in Scotland. In doing so, the Scottish of the Scottish Parliament. Government made provision for the creation of a new The UK Government remain committed to strengthening pathway called the restitution order to be imposed on the devolution settlement, and this order demonstrates offenders who assault a police officer or certain other the two Governments working together to deliver for prescribed persons. That will mean that those who assault the people of Scotland. It also reiterates our support 529 Constitutional Law 19 MAY 2020 Constitutional Law 530 and respect for police officers and staff across the country. I have big questions to ask the Minister with regard These police officers and staff do so much to protect us; to that. How will he ensure the affordability of those with these orders we are supporting them. I commend orders for benefit claimants, particularly when people the order to the House. are stretched, so that they will not be made destitute by them? Figures released by the Department for Work Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call and Pensions last year revealed that a quarter of a million Ian Murray, I remind those taking part in the debate people across the UK had been sanctioned on universal who are not in the Chamber that they have a 10-minute credit, and 5% of those had been sanctioned for longer limit, so they should have a timing device made available than six months. to them. Can we be sure that any deductions from benefits will be taken into account if someone is sanctioned, in order 2.49 pm for them and their families not to be put into destitution? Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I thank the That does not in any way dilute the seriousness of why Minister for his warm welcome at the Dispatch Box. I they were given a retribution order, but it is important would rather that we were debating the debacle of that it does not put families into destitution. How can Scottish football today, given his experience, which I am the Minister and the Secretary of State ensure that any sure would be more amenable to our constituents. Perhaps changes in legislation at the Scottish Government level we will get to one of those debates in future when we are are analysed and assessed on the basis of how the order back to normal. will now work, if people are having deductions from My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris their benefits and pay? Elmore) and I appreciate the Minister’s warm welcome As I said, we do not disagree with the order. Ultimately, and his words about my hon. Friend the Member for compensation for the victims of any crime goes further Rochdale (Tony Lloyd), who had a very serious bout of than its simple monetary value, particularly for crimes coronavirus. He is now out of hospital and I have of assault on police officers. It can be of great significance spoken to him. You will be pleased to hear, Mr Deputy as a real recognition of the crime that has been committed Speaker, that he has not lost any of his dry wit and against the victim, as well as acknowledging the suffering sense of humour. We look forward to him being back in as a result of any offence. Therefore, this is a necessary this place as quickly as possible. statutory instrument that will allow the justice system to work for victims by allowing them to see that the I also thank the Minister’s wife. I had not realised perpetrator’s actions have serious consequences, and that she was a serving police officer. I thank her and her will play an important role in victims’ recovery. We are colleagues for all that they are doing to keep us safe therefore happy to support the order. during the crisis, and not just during the crisis; police and other support staff keep us safe at all times, across 2.54 pm not just Scotland but the rest of the UK. David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and We will work constructively with the Minister, his team Tweeddale) (Con) [V]: May I add my congratulations to and the Secretary of State when they agree with us and the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) we will be a ferocious Opposition when they do not. We on his return to the role of shadow Secretary of State will work genuinely constructively when it is in the for Scotland after his sabbatical? One of the great interest of the people of Scotland, but we will certainly disappointments to me in my time as Secretary of State scrutinise and hold both Governments to account for was the announcement, following his departure from their decisions, because that is what they get paid for. that role, and in the absence of a Front-Bench spokesman, There is no disagreement this afternoon with regard that either the Leader of the Opposition himself or to the order, which facilitates the retribution orders that the shadow Chancellor would participate in Scottish the Scottish Government have put in place. It is questions. Perhaps not unsurprisingly, immediately before disappointing that it has taken a bit of time to get here, the first such occasion, a shadow Scottish Secretary was but there is no better time than now to reassess how we appointed. punish those who assault our police officers physically, This process is important. It is unusual not just mentally or, as the Minister said in his opening remarks, because we are participating in a virtual Chamber but by spitting during the coronavirus pandemic. It is time because we are in the Chamber more generally. Usually, to get the legislation in place. section 104 orders and others that flow from the original Retribution orders are useful tools for punishment Scotland Act are transacted on the Committee corridor and deterrence, and the fund that is developed is there and get very little attention, but, as the Minister said, for victims in the police service, and other associated they are in many ways the backbone of the devolution people within the police, to seek retribution and have settlement and the relationship between the two support. It is right for them to get that. We wish only Governments and Parliaments. It is very easy, particularly that we did not have to have that kind of support for given some of the headlines and media reports that we our police personnel, but we do, and we hope that it will have seen in recent weeks, to think that the devolution reduce over the years. settlement is not working, but this order and all the It is also important, at this time, to look at the others that go through Parliament are actually a people who might be given a retribution order and how manifestation of the fact that it is working. Behind the the legislation might affect them. There has been a scenes, officials in the UK Government and Scottish massive increase in the uptake of universal credit. The Government work closely together to ensure that these unemployment figures released today are not a surprise, orders and the things that really matter to people in but will be a concern to us all. For people in receipt of a Scotland—the provision of a police service and a criminal retribution order, this order will allow the retribution justice system—go ahead in a way that relates to the order to be deducted from their benefits. whole of the United Kingdom. As the Minister said, 531 Constitutional Law 19 MAY 2020 Constitutional Law 532

[David Mundell] This is not, Mr Deputy Speaker, the place to rehearse arguments that are rightly had in the Scottish Parliament, this order ensures that, if people are in England or Wales, but it would be wrong for me not to ensure that the such orders still apply and the benefits system recognises House is aware that my Scottish Conservative colleagues that. in the Scottish Parliament are concerned about the It is very important, when we see the flare-ups that Scottish National party Government’s approach to the sometimes happen between politicians north and south police and justice system in Scotland, particularly in of the border, that we understand that, in the day to relation to the ongoing issue of police funding and the day, the devolution settlement is working and has been ability of the police to do the job that is important to tested through these systems. There were many times them. Indeed, my colleague Liam Kerr MSP has brought when I had to put through orders on matters of substance forward legislation in the Scottish Parliament which with which I did not agree, but I did agree that the would give police officers even further protection. The Scottish Parliament had made that decision, in terms of events to which I have just referred, which have happened the devolution settlement, and therefore it was appropriate to police officers on at least 100 occasions, demonstrate that the Westminster Parliament and the UK Government that it is appropriate to have additional measures in ensured that that legislation was fully enacted. place. Conservative colleagues in the Scottish Parliament will continue to advocate for that, and to call the SNP I want to give my thanks and praise to the police in Government to account on their approach to policing Scotland for the job they do more generally and what and justice in Scotland. they have done specifically during the coronavirus crisis. I particularly commend the chief constable of Police The order, however late in the day, is to be welcomed. Scotland, Iain Livingstone,for his calm, measured approach It is important that, wherever people who have been to these matters. He said right at the start that it was asked to make such an order are in the United Kingdom, important that he continued on the basis of policing by the orders can be effectively approached. I therefore consent. From my experience, and from feedback I have hope that the House will take the view that the order received from constituents, I think that has been achieved. should be passed. That is very important. He underpinned that by setting I have one specific query that I want to raise with the out three key roles for Police Scotland: ensuring that Minister, which is in relation to the Department for social distancing is enforced to reduce the mortality rate Work and Pensions and its ability to deal with such during the spread of the virus; ensuring that the relationship things at this time or in the immediate future. As we of trust between the public in Scotland and the police is know, and as the shadow Secretary said, there has been maintained; and, of course, ensuring the welfare and an increase in the existing claimant count, so that is an safety of not just police officers but their families. increasing workload, but it has also obviously prioritised within its workload. I hope the Minister, in his closing I also commend the chief constable on his very remarks, will confirm that the DWP will in due course reasoned approach. When there were some differences have the capacity to deal with these orders. We all want in the guidance between England and Scotland and we to see a minimal amount of these orders, because the heard some unhelpful suggestions, from my point of optimum situation would be— view, that we should have border patrols, Iain Livingstone was clear that that would be a wholly inappropriate use Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. We gave of policeresources.Thatwasveryhelpfulformyconstituents, you a bit of injury time to get the question out and I many of whom cross the border regularly. know the Minister heard it. Thank you very much for The Minister and the shadow Secretary of State for your contribution. I call Kenny MacAskill. Scotland have already alluded to the shocking report that in the first few weeks of the lockdown 100 officers 3.4 pm had been attacked or the subject of abuse. As the Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) [V]: The right deputy chief constable Fiona Taylor said, that is outrageous hon. Member for Dumfriesshire,Clydesdale and Tweeddale and disrespectful. Abuse and assault are simply not (David Mundell) has pre-empted some of the comments part of the job of police officers and can never be that I was going to make. This legislation does go back tolerated. I think that that is at the heart of the legislation to my time in office in a different Chamber—indeed, in in the Scottish Parliament and this subsequent order to a different lifetime. It has taken a considerable period of ensure that we do not in any way accept that the abuse time for it to come through, and I do not know the or assault of police officers is regarded as routine or reason for that. The right hon. Member was correct to tolerated. In the event of such behaviour they must be say that the situation is likewise with the victim surcharge. supported in every way. However, I think we all know that in dealing with I do not think that we waited six years for this subordinate legislation—with very technical not only subordinate legislation to come through just so that the cross-border, but multi-departmental legislation—the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), devil is in the detail. who in 2014 was the Justice Secretary in Scotland and I have no doubt that Ministers, especially those involved brought forward that Act, could speak in this debate. I in drafting the legislation, would have found it very complex, am sure he must be disappointed, given the passion that as they would have had to engage across multiple I know he has for this matter and for an effective jurisdictions and agencies, including the Department criminal justice system, that it has taken quite so long for Work and Pensions, never mind the police authorities for the legislation to be fully enacted and this order and everything else. But we are where we are, and it is to put in place, just as I am sure he was disappointed be welcomed. It is rather regrettable that this matter that it took until 2019 for the victim surcharge fund, should have been slightly politicised by the right hon. which was also announced in 2014, to get up and Member, as it should be welcomed and perhaps even running in Scotland. considered south of the border. 533 Constitutional Law 19 MAY 2020 Constitutional Law 534

It may be appropriate for me to mention the genesis the service. They currently do so through their pay of this legislation. The Minister pointed out some of packet. This measure can provide some alleviation of the dreadful treatment experienced by officers during that and further support for it. I simply ask the Minister this time of crisis. As others have said, that should not to consider whether, as well as ensuring that we have the be a matter of routine. It can never be accepted that it is relevant restitution order, other support can come from just part of the job. No one’s job—a prison officer, a Governments north and, indeed, south of the border to police officer, somebody working in the health service, support not just the institution in Auchterarder but the or someone working in any other public or private one in Harrogate, Yorkshire. sector organisation—should mean that they routinely have to put up with abuse and violence. It is simply 3.10 pm unacceptable. Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD) [V]: It is That said, we are aware that the police are required to delightful to take part in this debate on something that, go to incidents and deal with people who can be threatening as has already been alluded to, may not appear as and violent, and on occasions they do suffer injuries. important or groundbreaking as some of the legislation Ultimately, it has to be for the court to decide on the we discuss but is vital to the everyday lives of our sentence to impose, and it is appropriate that it has as constituents. Let me take the opportunity to welcome many options available to it as possible. It can deal with back to the Front Bench the hon. Member for Edinburgh such behaviour with imprisonment, which will often be South (Ian Murray) and associate myself with his remarks the case for very serious offences, but it can also issue a about Scottish football—although perhaps the less said fine or compensation order. about the most recent decisions, the better for us all. There is one other area that comes to mind, and that It is also an honour to follow the hon. Member for is the ability for police officers to receive treatment. The East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), who, as he said, real genesis of this legislation came from a visit to the introduced the Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill to police treatment centre that is supported and sustained the Scottish Parliament. I, together with my Liberal by individual officers. I believe that almost every officer Democrat colleagues, welcome the opportunity to enable in Scotland contributes voluntarily from their income the Act to be fully enacted through this order. It was to the upholding of the centre.There is one in Auchterarder, fascinating to hear the hon. Gentleman’s account of the of which many Scottish Members may be aware. I genesis of the Bill, which is now coming to fruition no understand that there is also one south of the border in less than seven years after he introduced it at Holyrood. Harrogate. Police officers can go to these centres to get treatment: to get them fit and well, to try to get them None of us dispute that, currently, Police Scotland, in back to work, and to get their life on as even a course as common with police and other emergency services up possible. As I said, the centre is paid for by police and down this country,is working in extremely challenging contributions, and the cost is not insignificant. I do not circumstances. It has to balance its daily responsibilities think that a huge amount of public funds—if any—are of maintaining order with its extended role of protecting put into it, because it is run on a charitable basis. the public in the context of the pandemic. Police Scotland The service at the centre is professional. There are deftly responds to its emergency powers and protects treatments available that may be available in some towns the public by ensuring that we observe lockdown and or communities, but certainly not to the same level of social distancing, but, as the Minister mentioned, that expertise. Indeed, hearing about my visit to the centre has come at a price, with no fewer than 100 direct would put the Minister in mind of a football team, coronavirus-related attacks on our police service. because it has professional support staff such as osteopaths Until recently, safe working was something which and other experts, and it has its own swimming pool. many of us were lucky enough to be able to take for Officers come to the centre in Scotland not just from granted. But the police service as a profession never Scotland but from south of the border. It is sometimes can, and its daily routine is not without significant risk easier for officers from south of the border to get taken of abuse or assault. In fact, over the past five years in there or to access it, depending on where they are based Scotland, while we have been coming to this point with in the north of England. the Bill, there has been a gradual but sustained increase In summary, that is why we are here. This measure is in the number of reported assaults on police officers. not meant to take away from the right of a court to More than 3,000 police officers were assaulted—that is impose a prison sentence, a fine or a compensation an average of almost 20 a day— between March and order, but it is an opportunity for the court to impose a September last year. To assault a police office is of restitution order that would see some benefit. It would course already a crime under Scots law, but, as we have not simply—I do not mean to be disparaging in any heard, this legislation allows for restitution orders to way—be a penalty fine that might go into the public finally be brought forward into law. For those convicted coffers, but one which can tangibly be put to use for the of impeding or assaulting a police officer, a court will police service, and that can go to the benefit of the be able to impose this new financial penalty.This significant individual officer and of those more widely, because it step ensures that police officers who are victims of will be used, in the main, to support the police treatment crime receive support for their individual needs so that centres north of the border for officers from Scotland they continue their duty serving and protecting the or elsewhere. public. It is perhaps fitting that this week is Mental As I said, although it has taken a long time, we Health Awareness Week as many victims of crime—police welcome this measure. It should not be routine, but officers and others—suffer mental health issues as a officers who are injured are entitled to receive the best consequence. possible service. They cannot and should not always Victims of crime engage with support services whose have to do so by going to their own private physiotherapist funding will come as a direct result of restitution orders, or whatever; they should be able to obtain it as part of something whose day has finally arrived in Parliament. 535 Constitutional Law 19 MAY 2020 Constitutional Law 536

[Christine Jardine] Luckily for us, colleagues came quickly, and both people were arrested. The man, in particular, struggled That perhaps brings me to a slight difference of opinion violently throughout the arrest and attempted to spit at with colleagues I am following in this debate. Like many all the officers, claiming that he was HIV-positive. It others, I am extremely disappointed that it has taken then transpired that he had been responsible for an so long for this legislation to reach this point—the length assault and robbery nearby earlier that evening. Other of delay by the Scottish Government in what was a than bruising, my colleague and I were unharmed, but flagshippolicyfortheSNP.Itwentthroughtheparliamentary it was a salutary lesson to me in being prepared for any process as the Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill in eventuality and in being responsive to events. 2013 and was given Royal Assent in 2014. Police officers, like other key workers during the Police restitution orders which require this change current covid-19 pandemic, are leaving their homes and were a vital part of that legislation, and just in case families every day to carry out vital work and without there is any doubt, this delay has not been in any way, knowing what that day will bring them. Restitution shape or form the fault of the UK Government or orders are not simply about a financial penalty for those Parliament. It is, however, reassuring that we can, at this who assault officers in the course of their duties, but final stage of the Bill, work together to make sure that about showing police officers that the work they do for our police officers in Scotland receive the restitution us on behalf of society is valued. Now more than ever, they deserve. I hope that none of us will use this as a we are relying on the police, who are doing a very political opportunity either to bash or to congratulate difficult job in strange times. They are enforcing new the Scottish Government. It is simply a fact that we emergency laws and keeping us safe from coronavirus, have now come—finally—to the point where restitution alongside tackling other types of crime. Other crimes, orders can be put in place. I will take great pleasure in such as domestic abuse, are now more difficult to prevent supporting this order. and detect, and the police are therefore working on more innovative ways to encourage reporting of offending. 3.15 pm I pay tribute to my former colleagues in the Police Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD) [V]: I Service for doing so much to get us through this crisis. I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues welcome this welcome the positive impact that the restitution orders legislation, which will finally allow police restitution will have on support for police officers. However—I do orders to be brought forward in Scotland. As other not believe that this is politicising; it is asking legitimate Members have said, this is long overdue. questions—while the end result of restitution orders is As other Members have explained, restitution orders indeed positive, I am incredibly disappointed that these will make a fine payable if somebody is convicted of measures are being introduced far later than was ever abusing or assaulting a police officer. The fines will envisaged. It is a matter of regret that this order is being finance an expansion of the support that officers receive, brought forward nearly seven years after it was initially by helping to finance specialist non-NHS support for announced by the Scottish Government. The Victims injured police officers. Today’s debate relates to the fact and Witnesses (Scotland) Act 2014 was passed by the that Westminster approval is required to permit such Scottish Parliament in 2013 and received Royal Assent restitution orders to be claimed from benefits payable. in January 2014. The legislation was brought forward This is unequivocally a positive step forward for police by the then Cabinet Secretary for Justice in Scotland, officers and adds to the victim surcharge, which was now the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), finally introduced last year. who has already spoken in the debate. The measures were welcomed at the time by the Scottish Police Federation, It is a sad fact that many police officers are injured on yet for a very long time two of the flagship features of duty, and assaults on police officers are often the cause the Act were missing. of those injuries. Members will know that I come from a family of police officers; I, my father and my husband All that was needed was a minor statutory instrument have all served, and I have other family members currently to be passed in the UK Parliament—in other words, serving in Police Scotland. All of us were assaulted what we are debating today—but for whatever reason during our police careers. My husband was knocked the Scottish Government have chosen not to bring unconscious during the policing of a football match. plans forward to make these features operational until My father was head-butted by a prisoner in the police this time. cells and required stitches. The victim surcharge was finally established last year My own most vivid memory is from early in my and now, almost seven years on, restitution orders are police career—within months of leaving initial training being brought before this Parliament. This is a flagship at the police college in Tulliallan in fact. It relates to policy of the Scottish Government, yet, despite legislating, attending a call about a report of a domestic dispute in police officers are still waiting for support. There is a high-rise block of flats in Edinburgh. On arrival at the clearly an unanswered question about why this has landing in question, my tutor and I could hear a loud taken such a huge amount of time. As I mentioned, this argument and decided to call for additional officers to proposal won the backing of the Scottish Parliament in make their way to support us in case they were required. the days of the tenure of the hon. Member for East I am glad we did so. The door was answered by a man Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) as the Scottish Cabinet who, after telling us where to go, was then attacked by Secretary for Justice. At that time, Police Scotland, the his girlfriend, but from behind with a knife. A toddler amalgamation of the previous eight Scottish forces, was was visible at the back of the flat hallway. My colleague just a few months old. Sir Stephen House was the chief managed to baton the knife from the women’s grasp, constable and Vic Emery chair of the SPA. Since then, and in anger both of them then turned on us, and a we have had another two Justice Secretaries in Scotland, violent struggle ensued. two more chief constables and three more SPA chairs. 537 Constitutional Law 19 MAY 2020 Constitutional Law 538

Clearly, these have been challenging times, and I note for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David the turmoil of the SPA in particular. When the most Mundell). Those points were rightly made across the recent chair, Susan Deacon, resigned in 2019, she stated board, from Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat that governance and accountability arrangements for Members. I think the hon. Member for East Lothian the police service in Scotland were fundamentally flawed. (Kenny MacAskill) also acknowledged that the pace of A permanent replacement for the role of chair has yet introducing this order has been far too slow. I agree to be appointed. But that does not excuse the extraordinary with every speaker who has suggested that this should length of this delay. Someone who was undertaking have been done far quicker, because members of our their initial training at the Scottish Police College when police force across Scotland should have been benefiting the then Justice Secretary was championing the scheme from this for years. and heard the promises made will now be in the seventh I want to pick up on a number of points that have year of their police service. been made. The hon. Member for Edinburgh South There are huge questions to be answered by the (Ian Murray), the shadow Scottish Secretary, briefly Scottish Government as to why this delay has occurred. mentioned football. I thought long and hard about Indeed, my Scottish Liberal Democrat colleagues at mentioning football, but I thought that this week of all Holyrood have been asking this question consistently weeks, with the sad demise of his club to the championship since the Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Act 2014 next season, it was perhaps not the right time to mention was passed. Each time they were assured that preparatory it. Clearly, that wound will be open for some time and work was ongoing. It gives a sense of an idea, very we will bear that in mind as we go along with our laudable, but with no thought or plan on how best to proceedings throughout this Parliament. implement it and no real impetus to prioritise it, despite The hon. Gentleman raised an important point on the complexities that other Members have referred to. I the affordability of these orders and any sanctions hope that the passing of this legislation will be swiftly imposed. It is important to note that the court has followed by the introduction of the scheme. discretion over whether to impose a deduction from Where will the money raised by the orders go to benefits order and the amount imposed. Under section exactly? At the time, the then Justice Secretary said the 253E of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, Police Benevolent Fund as well as the Scottish police the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service must take treatment centre, Auchterarder, which has previously into consideration the means of the offender in determining benefited members of my own family—yes, I did contribute the amount of any fine. In addition, the Department for to it myself financially—were going to benefit. Is that Work and Pensions must take into consideration the still the case? How much are restitution orders estimated ability to pay when deducting benefits, and this will to raise every year, so that we can establish potentially apply to the restitution order. The offender can appeal how much money the police support services have missed against the imposition of the restitution order and the out on over the past six years? amount imposed, as well as appeal to the Department As other Members have referred to, there were more for Work and Pensions if they feel there is insufficient than 1,600 assaults on police officers between April and benefit for the payment deduction to be made. It was an June 2019, a five-year high. These orders might go some important point, but I hope the clarification reassures way to acting as a deterrent, so we have to ask: how the hon. Gentleman. many officers would have benefited from additional I now wish to deal with the points raised by my right special support if restitution orders had been in place? hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale There has been a human cost, sadly, to this delay, but and Tweeddale. It was clearly an important question, this is about not just individual officers, but the public because it took him nine minutes and 40 seconds to get as well. How many officers have been forced to retire to it! However, I genuinely enjoyed his contribution. It due to ill health as a consequence of an assault on duty? was a well-thought-out and passionate speech in defence We are losing good people from the police service. How of our police officers across Scotland. He was right to can we quantify the effect of this lack of prioritisation commend the chief constable of Police Scotland, Iain on police wellbeing and morale? These are questions Livingstone, for his approach and the guidance he is that I wholly expect my Scottish Parliament colleagues giving to officers the length and breadth of Scotland, to be pressing the Scottish Government on. who police by consent. I also thought it was important The significance of the support that the orders will that my right hon. Friend considered in great detail the provide to injured police officers has been overshadowed, effects of this order across borders,because his constituency, sadly, by the seven-year wait for the scheme. I hope the like those of my right hon. Friend the Scottish Secretary Minister will agree that it is imperative that the Scottish and my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Government now implement the restitution orders as Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont), is along the border quickly as possible. I thank all Members for their positive between Scotland and England. As I said, the collection contributions and say that police officers cannot afford of the restitution order imposed on offenders who move to wait any longer. from Scotland to England and Wales is covered in the order,which also provides for those who reside in England 3.22 pm or Wales but commit an offence in Scotland and are Douglas Ross: This has been a largely consensual tried in Scottish courts. That is important. debate, although I have to say that it is rather strange My right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, that I am not the most political speaker in debates on Clydesdale and Tweeddale also asked about the DWP’s Scottish matters now.It seems that some of our colleagues capacity to deal with these restitution orders. I have when they were in the Scottish Parliament had a newfound raised this issue and been in discussions with the zest for political points, as has the former Secretary of Department about it. There has been a steady increase State for Scotland, my right hon. Friend the Member in recovery applications, from 17,581 in 2010-11 to 539 Constitutional Law 19 MAY 2020 Constitutional Law 540

[Douglas Ross] The hon. Lady was right to highlight her family’s involvement in the police and, sadly, how each and every 24,362 in 2016-17, but the Department is content that it member of her family has suffered assault or abuse in has the capacity to deal with any increase in work arising their duties as police officers. Whether it was her husband from this order. being knocked unconscious at football, or in her own The hon. Member for East Lothian brought his case attending the scene at someone’s house, she put experience as the Cabinet Secretary for Justice in the into sharp focus what this debate and the order is all Scottish Parliament to this debate. He spoke of his about. visits to Auchterarder, which were doubtless made in I wish to highlight the example the hon. Lady gave that role. I have not visited the treatment centre at about her father, who she said suffered an assault in Auchterarder,but I have spoken to many people throughout police cells. It is important that she put that on record Scotland who are unanimously in praise of the work because, as I said in my opening remarks, the order is that happens at Auchterarder—I am sure it happens at imposed on offenders who assault police officers or Harrogate, too. I know police officers who have tried to certain other prescribed persons—and such a prescribed get professional and private help, who have had long- person could be someone working in police custody. running injuries and who thought there was nowhere They are not police officers, but the civilian staff in else to turn, but when they have gone to Auchterarder police custody also unfortunately suffer the abuse and they have, almost by a miracle, received the treatment assaults that we are discussing today, and they are also that has allowed them to get back to work, doing full covered by the order. It is important that we discuss duties, and has improved their private and personal their involvement in respect of the order and policing in lives. As well as highlighting the outstanding work of Scotland. our police officers and staff across Scotland, we should The hon. Lady asked about the potential number also take the opportunity today to thank those who of applications for restitution orders. It is obviously work at Auchterarder to get our police officers back on difficult to put a precise figure on it, but the Scottish to the frontline on duty across Scotland. As is suggested Government estimate that there will be in the region of by everyone I have spoken to and by the speech today 250 to 500 restitution orders a year, with an average from the hon. Gentleman, they clearly do excellent value of around £350, giving a total somewhere between work and should be recognised for that. £87,500 and £175,000. Those are clearly rough figures I also wanted to pick up on one other point the hon. based on the advice and best estimate of the Scottish Gentleman raised. He was right to say that no one in Government, but I think the hon. Lady was right to seek the police or any of our emergency services, or indeed in that figure to show how much money could have gone any job in public or private life, should expect that part towards supporting our police officers and staff across of their job is to put up, in whatever way, with abuse or Scotland had restitution orders been available earlier. violence. I do not always agree with him, but we can all I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their agree that no one in society, including police officers, contributions. It has been a largely consensual debate of should have to put up with that type of abuse in their a type we do not often see on the Floor of the House of working life. Commons; as others have stated, such proceedings would The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine normally be held in a Committee Room. Although public Jardine) spoke about us working together, and it is right and available online, such proceedings do not get the that across parties and across this House we are working attention that proceedings in this place get. It is right on this issue to get this order through to ensure that the that our police officers and staff the length and breadth restitution orders are in place as quickly as possible of Scotland can see their Parliament uniting in a common now. She was also right to talk about the length of time goal to support them in the terrible circumstances where it has taken to get to this stage, which others have also they face assault or abuse at work. We have heard an mentioned. The Scottish Government have stated that unequivocally clear message from both sides of the the initial work to set up the victims’ surcharge model House and from all parties representing Scotland that proved more complex than was initially anticipated we are behind our officers and behind our police staff. and this had a knock-on effect on the impact and We thank them for everything they do, not only in these implementation of the restitution orders, but that should challenging times to deal with covid-19, but at all times, not have meant it has taken seven years, since the because they are on the frontline protecting us. With this legislation was first passed, to get to this stage. order, we can help to protect them. I therefore commend That means there have been a lot of missed opportunities the draft order to the House. for police officers and staff across Scotland, which is extremely unfortunate. I do not want to dwell too much Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I announced on the past, though, and we now look at the positives of to the House earlier this afternoon Mr Speaker’sprovisional getting this legislation through, but it was a point well determination that a remote division would not take place made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West while on the question now before the House. That is also the outlining her support for the order. final determination. Finally, we heard an excellent speech from the hon. Question put and agreed to. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), Resolved, who comes from a family of police officers. Having one That the draft Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Act 2014 police officer and one politician in our family, I cannot (Consequential Modification) Order 2020, which was laid before be sure whether our young son Alistair is going to this House on 25 March, be approved. follow his mother or father, but given that my wife continually buys him toys that resemble police cars and Mr Deputy Speaker: I will now suspend the House for make noises, I know which direction she is pointing a technical break of 15 minutes. The House will resume him in. at 3.48 pm. 541 Constitutional Law 19 MAY 2020 542

3.33 pm Finance Bill (Ways and Means) Sitting suspended.

3.48 pm 3.49 pm On resuming— The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): I beg to move, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): We That (notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the practice now come to the motion on ways and means. Mr Speaker of the House relating to the matters that may be included in has not selected any amendments and his provisional Finance Bills) provision taking effect in a future year may be determination remains that a remote Division will not made amending Chapters 8 and 10 of Part 2 of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003. take place on the main motion. I call the Minister, Jesse Norman, to move the motion. He is asked to speak for This ways and means motion enables the Government no more than 10 minutes. to amend the current Finance Bill in order to implement reforms to the existing off-payroll working rules. We are presenting it separately because we wanted to extend the date at which it comes into force by one year to April 2021 in recognition of the effects of the coronavirus pandemic. The off-payroll working rules have been in place for 20 years. They are designed to ensure that people working like employees but through their own companies pay broadly the same income tax and national insurance contributions as people who are directly employed. In April 2017, the Government reformed the way in which the rules operate in the public sector by transferring the responsibility for determining whether the rules apply from individual contractors to the public bodies that engage them. Unfortunately, in the private sector, non-compliance with these rules remains widespread, and it is forecast to cost the Exchequer over £1.3 billion a year by 2023-24 if not addressed. This is not a sustainable position. It costs the taxpayer a great deal of revenue that is needed for our public services, it perpetuates an unfairness between individuals working in the same way but paying different levels of tax, and it prolongs the disparity with the public sector, where the rules have been in place now for three years. At Budget 2018, the Government announced that the reform would be extended to medium and large-sized organisations in the private and voluntary sectors, but it would not apply to engagements with the 1.5 million smallest businesses. It is important to be clear that this is not a new tax. The off-payroll working rules have been on the statute book since 2000. This reform is focused on improving on improving compliance with the rules that are already in place. Let me turn to the amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) the hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden. I understand that it will not be moved today, but it is important to be clear about the Government’s position on it. To help businesses and individuals deal with the economic impacts of the coronavirus, on 17 March the Government announced that the reform to the off-payroll working rules would be delayed by one year from 6 April 2020 until 6 April 2021. The amendment would delay the introduction of reform by a further two years to April 2023, but it is hard to see any genuine rationale for this further delay. The current measure was first introduced at Budget 2018. Since then, the Government have carried out two consultations on the detail of the reform. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has worked extensively to support businesses in preparing for the change. Draft legislation and guidance has been published. There was a further review earlier this year that resulted in several additional 543 Finance Bill (Ways and Means)19 MAY 2020 Finance Bill (Ways and Means) 544

[Jesse Norman] lobby, which has also shown itself willing and able to highlight cases where it feels that the rules are not being improvements. By delaying until 2021, the Government followed. The reforms themselves include a client-led have already ensured that businesses and contractors status disagreement process, where contractors can lodge will not need to make final preparations for this reform a complaint if they disagree with how they have been until next year. There is therefore no need for further categorised. delay.Moreover, such a delay would have very significant Thirdly, HMRC is continuing to help businesses to drawbacks. It would not address the intrinsic unfairness get their employment status determinations right by of taxing two people differently for the same work, it ensuring that they have access to a wide programme of would extend the disparity between the private and education and support. The independent research that public sectors, and it would come at a significant fiscal we are announcing post-implementation next year will cost that other taxpayers up and down the country would also evaluate from an external perspective whether decisions have to make up. are being made properly. I turn now to the substance of the measure. I want to Finally,HMRChas committed to a light-touch approach address a number of further concerns that have been to penalties in the first year of the reform and has stated pressed by colleagues, including, in particular, my hon. in terms that the reform will not result in new compliance Friends the Members for North East Bedfordshire (Richard checks being opened into previous tax years unless Fuller), for Barrow and Furness (Simon Fell), for there is reason to suppose or suspect fraud or criminal Workington (Mark Jenkinson) and for Watford (Dean behaviour,and the same is true for penalties for inaccuracies. Russell). The first of these is that organisations will no The Government very much value the important role longer engage with personal service companies as a that contractors play in the labour market and want result of this reform, reducing the number of contracts businesses to be able to design their workforces in a way available in the labour market. It is important to recognise that makes sense for them. That should not mean, that the Government are fully aware of the importance however, that contractors pay less tax than employees of the flexibility for individuals and businesses to agree where their engagement meets the test of an employment working arrangements that suit their needs. We know relationship. The legislation is designed to remedy that that that has been one of the pillars of the success of the unfairness and to support the tax base needed to fund UK labour market in recent years. our public services, and I commend it to the House. In 2017, soon after the implementation of the public sector off-payroll working reform, the Government Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I commissioned independent research to assess its effect now call Dan Carden, shadow Minister, who is asked to on the labour market. It found that the Government speak for no more than five minutes. and independent researchers had not seen any evidence of an overall change in the demand for the services and 3.58 pm skills of contractors. Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab) [V]: I am Some organisations have clearly decided to change delighted to contribute to this debate as shadow Financial the balance of their employees and their contractors. Secretary. May I start by acknowledging the significant That can be for many reasons—for example, where that interest and the strong feelings of people across the better suits the evolving business model of that country on this issue? We are considering a technical organisation—but many organisations will still choose change to our tax system, reforming compliance on to engage contractors using personal service companies IR35 rules for the private sector, but for many people where that is appropriate to their business. watching us, there is genuine concern that this technical Nevertheless, the Government remain keen to ensure change—this attempt to strengthen the system against the long-term flexibility and success of the labour market. tax avoidance—may affect their incomes and their We will therefore use the additional time given by this livelihoods. I and the Labour party approach this matter one-year delay to commission further independent and with the seriousness and the consideration that it merits. robust research into the long-term effects of the 2017 The ambition of IR35 rules and the associated difficulties reform on the public sector. We want that research to be have been a long-running saga over three decades, and available before the reform comes into effect in other it is a near impossible task to do the issue justice in the sectors in April 2021, and I can tell the House that the five minutes I have to contribute today. Government will give careful consideration to the results Provisions were introduced by the last Labour of that further research and thereafter will continue to Government in 2000 for HMRC to investigate and monitor the effect of the reform on the labour markets identify the relationship between businesses and contractors of those sectors, including by commissioning independent and to ensure that, where individuals actually perform research six months after this private and voluntary the role of employees, they were contracted as such, to sector reform has taken effect. pay the correct tax and benefit from the correct employment Secondly, colleagues have concerns that organisations protections, two issues that remain at the heart of the might take a blanket approach to status determinations, difficulty around IR35. categorising all engagements as employment, regardless The nature of today’s economy, with the weakening of the facts. The Government have been very clear that of workers’ rights and employment protections and determinations must be based on an individual’scontractual with zero-hours contracts, demands a radical overhaul. terms and actual working arrangements. Many businesses We need a progressive tax system, and we need to and public sector organisations have described processes rebalance the relationship between those at the top and that they have put in place to ensure that determinations those at the bottom. In the meantime, what we have are are correct, based on the actual working practices of piecemeal attempts to stop some, perhaps the more the individuals concerned. There is a vigorous contractor blatant, tax avoidance arrangements utilised by some 545 Finance Bill (Ways and Means)19 MAY 2020 Finance Bill (Ways and Means) 546 companies. The challenge for tax authorities and for us rightly committed, in the motion, to postponing the is to understand, and differentiate between, fair and planned reforms to IR35, but only until next April. The correct contractual relationships for the genuinely self- effects of the pandemic are going to be felt for considerably employed who are providing a crucial service to business longer than one year. On this basis, in April next year and those who are all too often forced into bogus self-employed contractors will be hit with unnecessary self-employment by unscrupulous employers, a practice costs, confusion and uncertainty, just as many of them that has become all too common and is designed to are getting back on their feet after the coronavirus has cheat the tax system and to deprive working people of wreaked havoc across the economy.It is the self-employed their rights and even their entitlement to a minimum and small businesses that make up the beating heart of wage and fair pay. HMRC estimates such bogus self- our economy, and they will power the recovery of our employment schemes cost around £3 billion a year in economy out of this crisis. lost tax revenue, and the February 2020 Treasury review The IR35 rules, as the Minister said, have long applied put the cost of non-compliance with IR35 at £1.3 billion to the public sector. This is about applying them across a year by 2023-24. the private sector. In that light, they were studied by the Having taken effect in the public sector in April 2017, House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee in a these measures were initially meant to be rolled out to report referred to by the shadow Financial Secretary to the private sector last month, but that is being delayed the Treasury. The report stated that the rules by a year due to the current pandemic, and the Labour “have never worked satisfactorily, throughout the whole of their party broadly supports the decision to delay. We have 20-year history. We therefore conclude that this framework is raised concerns about the implementation of this reform flawed.” and have called for a proper and thorough review before The report found a system riddled with unfairness and the roll-out to the private sector, and, as the Financial unintended consequences and called for a wide-scale Secretary recognised, the additional time now available independent review—not just a few research reports, gives him an opportunity to get to grips with these Financial Secretary—focused on how the reforms would concerns, but we do need reform. affect the wider labour market and the costs that would The Labour party is committed to modernising the be forced on businesses. The Lords Committee said that law around employment status, including new statutory IR35 had the effect of reducing contractors to definitions of employment status, and the Government’s “an undesirable ‘halfway house’: they do not enjoy the rights that own Taylor review was right to conclude that the nature come with employment, yet they are considerably employees for of the tax system acts as an incentive for practices such tax purposes. In short, they are ‘zero-rights employees’”. as bogus claiming of self-employed status, both by That is, zero-rights employees effectively created by the businesses and individuals. It called on the Government state. to make the taxation of labour more consistent across The Lords recommended that the Government adopt employment forms while at the same time improving the Taylor review proposals, which we as a Government the rights and entitlements of self-employed people. I promised to do years ago, as they offer the best long-term would also add—as we consider these changes in the alternative solution to the off-payroll rules and provide midst of the coronavirus pandemic that has forced an opportunity to consider tax, rights and risk together, 2 million people on to universal credit and millions to as they should be. Despite what the Financial Secretary rely on the Government’s furlough scheme, unsure of said, however, the Treasury has neither the time nor the their future—that we need a social security system fit capacity for a wholesale review right now. Therefore, for the modern era that can protect all of our people in the only sensible course of action is to pause these one of the wealthiest countries on the planet. reforms and take the time to properly review the impact I would just like to finish with a few points that I they will have on the self-employed. So, I will vote for hope the Financial Secretary can respond to when he this motion today, if we have the opportunity, but only winds up. Can he explain how reforms will only affect in the expectation that will be back here in nine months’ people working like employees through a company, and time to do all this again. does he agree that there can be no space in our economy for zero rights employment? Will he respond to concerns Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I most recently set out by the House of Lords Economic call Alison Thewliss, who is asked to speak for no more Affairs Finance Bill Sub-Committee that lessons have than five minutes. not been learned from the roll-out to the public sector, and will he look again at serious problems highlighted 4.6 pm with the “check employment status for tax” online tool? Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): It is a We need a joined-up approach in the consideration of strange day indeed when I end up agreeing with the tax regulations and employment law. We need better House of Lords and the right hon. Member for Haltemprice protections for the self-employed, and we need to tackle and Howden (Mr Davis), but I very much support a tax avoidance,and the Labour party will work constructively review, as does the SNP, as we had this in our manifesto. to achieve that end. Concerns about IR35 have been well raised by myself, my colleagues and colleagues of all parties. I mention in Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I particular my predecessor in this role, my hon. Friend now call David Davis, who is asked to speak for no the Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman), more than four minutes. who in 2018 raised the impact on rural communities where teachers, doctors and nurses may be employed 4.4 pm through intermediaries. My hon. Friends the Members Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn) and for Gordon In the light of the impact that coronavirus is having (Richard Thomson) and the hon. Member for West across all sectors of the economy, the Government have Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) have 547 Finance Bill (Ways and Means)19 MAY 2020 Finance Bill (Ways and Means) 548

[Alison Thewliss] sooner than that. If the Government can say categorically that it will be six months, that is different—it provides a also raised concerns about the impact of these reforms bit more time—but I am not quite convinced yet that on people working in the oil and gas industry, which is the Government know what they want from this and also under significant pressure at this time. what they are going to achieve. In my constituency, many people working in IT are Overwhelmingly, we are concerned about employment already finding that their contracts are not being renewed. rights. I have seen from my casework, as we all have, This is having an impact on their industry because of people who are uncertain about what they are able to the ongoing uncertainty with this policy. I should also do, what their rights are, and what they are obliged to like to mention the possibility of an equality impact do by their contracts and by their employers. I think the assessment. Many of those people have come here to Government need to reflect carefully on the situation work from other countries because of their expertise, that many have ended up in during the period of and if they are not able to work, that could have an coronavirus, when some people have very little at all on impact on their immigration status and their ability to which to survive. stay in this country, where they have made their home. I ask the Minister to consider that. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): The time limit for speeches is four minutes, and I advise The House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee hon. Members who are speaking virtually to have a has set out very well the issues with IR35. Its report timing device visible. states that the Government should reassess the flawed IR35 framework and give serious consideration to the 4.11 pm fairer alternatives to the off-payroll working rules. The report sets out a number of options that the Government Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Self- may wish to pick up. In the Chancellor’s earlier statements employment is a vital part of our economy. People who on support for self-employed people, he hinted about are genuinely self-employed deserve to be properly the support the Government are offering to some of supported while ensuring that everyone pays the right them—not all of them; there are still big gaps in the amount of tax. While we welcome the extension to scheme—but there is an inconsistency in contributions 2021, it is crucial that we ensure that there is levelling up between the self-employed and the employed, with a bit and protection of people’s rights, whether they are in of uncertainty as to what exactly that means when we the public or the private sector. That is why a joined-up come out of coronavirus. What will people be expected approach is required in bringing together consideration to contribute? Any clarity that the Government can give of tax and employment law and protection for the self- on this would be extremely useful. The House of Lords employed. also makes it clear in no uncertain terms that IR35 is I want to turn to my wider concerns about the not a good base to build on. Yes, it has been in place for Finance Bill. With every passing day, it is clear that we 20 years, but for 20 years it has been plagued with these are entering a severe recession, which is going to lead to types of problems and by bolting more on to it and more poverty, inequality and greater unemployment if trying to reform it, the Government are building a the Government are not bold in their response. The house on the sand. We cannot rely on that house standing Office for Budgetary Responsibility has already said any longer. that the economy could shrink by 35%, with unemployment The Taylor review that the Government carried out soaring to 2 million. Youth unemployment is likely to made it very clear that there are options open to the reach 1 million, with an additional 640,000 young people Government. The Financial Secretary spoke of reviews being made unemployed. We desperately need to support past and reviews yet to come, but there is a real lack of them so that they have hope for the future and we do proper assessment and understanding of the impact not lose another generation. They need job guarantees, this has already had in the public sector and there is a training, and mentoring and support from wider society. need to understand how this will work fully when it We also need to make sure in relation to the Finance comes to the private sector. Further, the House of Bill—it could do so much more, given that it was Lords Committee points out that shifting responsibility conceived before the crisis—that Ministers look at the on to business for a scheme that is not fit for purpose areas where the Government’s programmes following is the Government and HMRC ducking a degree of covid do not go far enough, leaving many out. The first responsibility. is the job retention scheme, and while I welcome the I want to raise this with the Minister because we, and extension to October, many employers are not clear many in the industry, have concerns about the future of about what their contribution to the furloughed salaries contracting because we do not know what the impact needs to be. That needs to be clarified, and I hope the will be. As I have said, this ongoing uncertainty has led Minister will do that. Research by the New Starter to people not having their contracts renewed. A deferral Justice campaign has found that 83% of its members for a year gives the Government and HMRC some time, received no universal credit for April. How do the but they must use it wisely. Although some research has Government expect them to survive for eight months been carried out already, other people have looked at with no income or welfare? Those in the hospitality this and the industry understands what they need and sector also face huge challenges because they do not what the norm is in their sectors, the outcome is still qualify for support. Between 350,000 and 500,000 remain very unclear. The Government have said that they will unable to be furloughed, despite the extension of the use this year, but can the Financial Secretary say when job retention scheme. that review will be completed and when it will actually When the Chief Secretary to the Treasury was asked be available for people to see and reflect on? Coming to about those issues at the Treasury Committee, he talked this in nine months’ time will be too late for lots of about “trade-offs” and “hard edges” to avoid the risk of people to make those changes; it needs to be much fraud, but these are not people who are committing 549 Finance Bill (Ways and Means)19 MAY 2020 Finance Bill (Ways and Means) 550 fraud. These are hard-working people—hundreds of Many of the companies that are employing those thousands of them—who are getting no support from contractors are taking a very risk-averse approach, this Government. That is wrong, and it must be corrected. designating all contractors as needing to go under the I hope the Minister will say something about that, IR35 umbrella. That is having a negative impact on because they desperately need our support. those technically skilled individuals who would be available The Institute for Fiscal Studies estimates that 2 million for work but will end up being employed for tax purposes freelancers in sectors such as arts and entertainment only, with none of the perks. In pursuing the national and the creative industries who have some self-employment insurance contributions of employers, the Government income are not covered by the scheme, while 675,000 are in danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. people who get over half their income from self-employment No one wants to see tax avoidance on a huge scale, but will not be covered. The Government need to act to this system has grown up and helped to generate a help them. whole business sector that relies on this flexibility, and Finally, limited company directors are also left out. the employees caught up in this will have none of the Local government need support from the Government. benefits of employees but will be working alongside Only £3.2 billion of emergency funding has been provided, people who do. and yet there is a shortfall of £10 billion. They desperately The issue of national insurance contributions is really need the Government to act now, so that they can cope important in terms of the Government’s review. We with the crisis. My local authority has lost £35 million need to know exactly what the timetable is for that of income and will have to spend an extra £25 million to review, who will do it and how they will calculate the tax address the coronavirus crisis. The Government need to take. Many businesses are presented with evidence, which make sure that they are prepared for tough times. The I am happy to share with the Minister, about why the Bill does not do that, and this particular change does tax take will not actually increase for HMRC by going not address the bigger crisis that is looming ahead of us. down this route. It is really important that we get those fundamental numbers right. Is the research commissioned 4.16 pm yet? How will be people be able to contribute, and will it look at the overall tax rate? The delay of a year is Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ welcome, but I completely agree with the right hon. Co-op): I think it is fair to say that covid-19 has shone Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) that a light on the different ways of working. Whether it be we are going into an economic contraction, the likes of freelance work through personal service companies, which this this country has never seen before, and a year which are often set up to deal with insurance and is not long enough. We need to delay this further or we liability, or freelance work via short-term pay-as-you-earn will lose these skills, and businesses will not replace these contracts, many of these people are falling through the roles as employees, so we will have a double whammy in net. That does not even begin to embrace those who are the economy. in insecure, zero-hours work. Many in my constituency work four jobs over seven days just to make ends meet, while others earn enough to work a four-day week and 4.20 pm can live quite comfortably. Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD) [V]: Hackney South and Shoreditch is a microcosm of all I am beginning to fear that this Government do not the different ways of working, some of which the Chancellor understand the self-employed. I fear that, yes, because has supported in his package, and some of which he has of the IR35 proposals in front of us, but also because not. It is also a hub of innovation, particularly in the of the loan charge and the way that a large group of the tech area in Shoreditch, in the creative industries. We are self-employed have been kept out of the support proud to be the home of many disruptor businesses that programmes during the coronavirus crisis—I am talking start off trying to change the way things work. about the people who are newly self-employed and the This motion brings to the fore a number of issues. people whose self-employment operates through a limited Contractors providing a flexible, agile workforce allow company, all of whom have had no help. I am afraid many of the businesses in my constituency to buy in the that the evidence is mounting up. That is why there should skills they need when they need them. Those are typically be a review, not just of IR35, but of how self-employment high-cost skills that a business could not put on the payroll, is viewed—the way we tax it and the benefits that especially at the start-up stage. Businesses have been in people get—so that we can get a proper balance, rather touch with me about this measure for that reason in than the piecemeal approach that we have. particular. They would not be able to create a full-time I am really struck by the Government’s approach, job. They do not need this expertise full time, long term which is, as the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and on the payroll. They need to be able to hire someone Howden (Mr Davis) said, creating zero-rights employment quickly, and if the company does not succeed, there is —employees without employment rights. That is not no direct impact on the careers of the people they have acceptable and it is why there needs to be a review before hired for that short contract because they go on to the this goes any further. I had expected a review because next contract. It allows start-ups to get the help, support the former Chancellor of the Exchequer said so during and technical skills they need as a fledgling business. the last general election campaign. On Paul Lewis’s Since the Government announced the extension of “Money Box” programme on BBC Radio 4, he made it IR35 to the private sector, many companies in my clear, and he tweeted afterwards that there would be a constituency have already taken the view that they need review of IR35, but there has not been a review. The to move overseas, and many of the individual contractors Liberal Democrats argued for one in the election, as did are moving overseas. They often work in different countries others, but there has been no such review. That is a anyway, so where they are physically based is less of an breach of a promise to people, which has made them issue than it may seem. very angry. 551 Finance Bill (Ways and Means)19 MAY 2020 Finance Bill (Ways and Means) 552

[Sir Edward Davey] their obligations. That was directly referenced by the Taylor review, which stated, based on evidence submitted The Minister today is promising a review once the to it, that legislation is on the statute book. That is not a review—that “the nature of the tax system acts as an incentive for practices is trying to make good once the stable door has closed. such as bogus claiming of self-employed status, by both businesses Any review must take place ahead of any legislation, if or individuals.” it is to be done in good faith. I am afraid that the way This highlights the importance of not assessing tax law that the Government are treating the self-employed, in isolation. A joined-up approach that brings together breaking their promise at the election and now proposing tax and employment law can ensure that everyone pays to have a review after the legislation is in place is a their fair share of tax and that no one is exploited by breach of good faith to the 5 million self-employed holes in the system. It is vital that the Government people in our country. That is just not acceptable. recognise the relationship between poor employment On the details of IR35 in front of us, the Treasury practice, exploitative working arrangements and the tax Minister talked about the fact that the measures were system. Do the Government intend to introduce any trialled in the public sector before the private sector. He additional measures to tackle the enablers of tax avoidance seems to think that this can therefore be taken straight schemes, including those who exploit gaps relating to across, but that is not real life. The public sector, its HR tax and employment law? and payroll look at risks such as tax liabilities in a very The precarious nature of certain forms of self- different way from the private sector, and I would have employment has made it difficult for many to access the thought that he would know that. Therefore, I do not coronavirus self-employment income support scheme. think we can draw the conclusions that he is trying to A large number of my constituents, including those draw. I am afraid that the evidence, even ahead of this working in the creative industries, cannot access SEISS legislation as people were preparing it, expecting it to as they receive less than 50% of their income from come in this April, shows that the private sector takes a self-employment. Will the Minister consider introducing very different approach. That is why lots of people have additional support that can be offered to those who ended up going abroad and why the Treasury will lose receive less than half their income from self-employment, money as a result of this proposal. and who may also have been using short-term pay-as- That is my final point. The Treasury Minister trots you-earn contracts? out the idea that there is a lot of tax avoidance and that The covid-19 crisis has created a critical juncture in this measure closes those loopholes. He should think our country’s economy.I urge the Government to ingrain again, because there are benefits that people are forgoing. workers’ rights and fair taxation into the post-covid I think that this will end up costing the taxpayer and the economy. country, and it will mean that there is less money for our public services if the measure goes through. It is the 4.27 pm wrong measure at the wrong time. The Government should withdrawit, review and proceed in a wholesale—not Jesse Norman: I thank all Members who have contributed this piecemeal—way. to this brief but very lively debate. I thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) and the 4.24 pm Labour party for their support for this measure and Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab) [V]: The covid-19 their agreement not merely to the substance of the proposal crisis has had a dramatic impact on the UK’s economy. but to the need for a delay. I think that is absolutely A small state, low taxes and pure free market economics right. They should be congratulated on their bipartisan have failed to prepare the UK for the public health approach to this important public issue. The hon. crisis and the ever-present climate emergency. Gentleman mentioned the Taylor review,which was picked The public health crisis has forced the Government to up by several other Members. The Government whole- postpone this failed style of governance, in favour of an heartedlyagree:theTaylorreviewmade53recommendations, interventionist, corporate welfare policy,aimed at protecting the vast majority of which we accepted, and several have the needs of capital, with the hope that benefits will already been put in place. trickle down to workers through business-first schemes. I covered the question of a delay in my speech. I The post-covid-19 economy must have fair taxation and encourage all Members who would like a further delay strong workers’ rights at its centre. Self-employed workers to reflect on the points that I made about the intrinsic will be pivotal in our economic rebuild, and people who unfairness of taxing two people differently for the same are genuinely self-employed deserve fair support while work, the disparity that it would continue between the also paying their taxes. private and public sectors, and the significant fiscal cost The Opposition are fundamentally committed to that would be involved in doing so. promoting and advancing workers’ rights, so we are The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) deeply concerned that IR35 reduces the rights of the spoke of a review. She should be perfectly clear that I worker and the responsibilities of the employer. It is have at no point discussed a further review. We had a essential that, during the review of IR35, the Government review earlier this year, contrary to what the right hon. recognise the overlap between employment law and tax Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) status, and do not see them as exclusive entities. An said. It was a perfectly good-faith discharge of a initial recognition of their interrelation provides the commitment made during the general election. It involved basis for levelling up self-employment protection and a wide range of parties discussing how the reforms ending forms of self-employment that are used as cover could be effectively implemented, and several important for tax avoidance. changes were made as a result of it. Of course, it I am aware that some workers are forced into self- followed two processes of consultation, draft legislation employment by employers trying to cut costs and reduce and a full pre-legislative history. 553 Finance Bill (Ways and Means)19 MAY 2020 Finance Bill (Ways and Means) 554

We are not talking about a further review. We are Finally, I remind the House that the measure will not talking about two pieces of research. The first, later in merely improve the fairness and equity of the system, the year to come before April 2021, will look at the but allow us to fund our public services better—the long-term effects on the public sector. It is entirely services on which all of us, across parties and across the appropriate to look at the public sector reform, because country, deeply rely. that is the major case in which the reform has been put Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I in place, and it has led to a significant improvement in announced to the House earlier this afternoon the the fiscal position relative to those involved and that is provisional determination that a remote Division would all to the good from the taxpayer standpoint. The not take place on the Question now before the House. second piece of research, which I mentioned earlier, will That is also Mr Speaker’s final determination. come at the end, after the reform has been introduced. It will be an early take on the effects on the private Question put and agreed to. sector in the first six to 12 months of its introduction. Resolved, The hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow That (notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the practice of the House relating to the matters that may be included in (Rushanara Ali) raised the issue of whether we could Finance Bills) provision taking effect in a future year may be not go further. The Government have gone much, much made amending Chapters 8 and 10 of Part 2 of the Income Tax further. We have essentially had three Budgets already (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003. this year, given the astonishing measures that have been taken by the Treasury and across Government to support ADJOURNMENT businesses, people and families during the coronavirus crisis. This resolution and the Finance Bill are designed 4.31 pm to bring into law the Budget that we had in March, and House adjourned without Question put (Order A(5), that is what they do. 22 April).

23WS Written Statements 19 MAY 2020 Written Statements 24WS

In order to facilitate discussions in the fourth round Written Statements and beyond, the Government are today making publicly available the draft legal texts we have shared with the Tuesday 19 May 2020 Commission and which have formed the basis of our discussions, together of course with the EU’s draft agreement. The UK texts are fully in line with the CABINET OFFICE Government’s document “The Approach to the Future Negotiations” published on 27 February. Copies of the legal texts have been placed in the House Library and Future Relationship with the EU: Negotiations they are also available at: www.gov.uk. This Government remain committed to a deal with a The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister free trade agreement at its core. We look forward to the for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): The Government fourth round beginning on 1 June. have made a commitment to update Parliament on the [HCWS245] progress of our future relationship negotiations with the EU. This statement provides an update on the third TREASURY round of negotiations. It also notes that the UK’s draft UK Counter-Terrorist Asset Freezing Regime: legal texts are being made public today. 1 October 2019 to 31 December 2019 Negotiators from the UK and the EU held discussions through video conferencing on 11-15 May 2020 for the The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): third round of negotiations on the UK-EU future Under the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 (TAFA relationship. This was a full and constructive negotiating 2010), the Treasury is required to prepare a quarterly round, covering the full range of issues with both sides report regarding its exercise of the powers conferred discussing full legal texts. The round was opened by the on it by part 1 of TAFA 2010. This written statement UK’s Chief Negotiator,David Frost, and by the European satisfies that requirement for the period 1 October 2019 Commission’s Chief Negotiator, Michel Barnier, in a to 31 December 2019. plenary session on 11 May. There were then discussions This report also covers the UK’s implementation of across all the issues and the session closed with a further the UN’s ISIL (Da’esh) and Al-Qaida asset freezing plenary on 15 May. regime (ISIL-AQ), and the operation of the EU’s asset Discussions covered all workstreams including: freezing regime under EU Regulation (EC) 2580/2001 Trade in Goods—Market access and rules of origin, trade concerning external terrorist threats to the EU (also remedies, customs, technical barriers to trade and SPS. referred to as the CP 931 regime). Trade in Services—Investment, temporary entry for business Under the ISIL-AQ asset freezing regime, the UN purposes, professional qualifications, professional and business has responsibility for designations and the Treasury, services, financial services and digital. through the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation Fisheries—Discussion on control and enforcement, conservation (OFSI), has responsibility for licensing and compliance andsustainableexploitation,andscientificevidence,allprincipally with the regime in the UK under the ISIL (Da’esh) and on the basis of the draft fisheries framework agreement Al-Qaida (Asset- Freezing) Regulations 2011. provided to the EU the previous week. Under EU Regulation 2580/2001, the EU has Transport—Aviation and aviation safety, road haulage and passenger transport. responsibility for designations and OFSI has responsibility Energy—Civil nuclear cooperation, gas and electricity trading, for licensing and compliance with the regime in the UK climate change and carbon pricing. under Part 1 of TAFA 2010. Mobility and social security co-ordination—Including the EU Regulation (2016/1686) was implemented on UK’s legal text on social security co-ordination. 22 September 2016. This permits the EU to make Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice—UK presentation of autonomous Al-Qaida and ISIL (Da’esh) listings. the UK Law Enforcement Treaty with detailed discussions The tables setting out the key asset-freezing activity on operational capabilities. in the UK during the quarter can be viewed online at Thematic co-operation—Covering health security; asylum https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/ and illegal migration; unaccompanied asylum-seeking children; written-questions-answers-statements/written- cyber security; and security of information. statement/Commons/2020-05-19/HCWS244/. General terms for UK Participation in union programmes— [HCWS244] participation in programmes, including provisions for financial contribution. HOME DEPARTMENT “Level Playing Field”—Including subsidies, competition policy, and trade and sustainable development. Anthony Grainger Inquiry Report Horizontal issues—Governance arrangements, territorial scope. Discussions showed that a standard comprehensive The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse): free trade agreement, with other key agreements on Today the Government have published their formal issues like law enforcement, civil nuclear, and aviation response to the Anthony Grainger Public Inquiry and a alongside, all in line with the political declaration, could copy will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. be agreed without major difficulties in the time available. Anthony Grainger was shot dead on 3 March 2012 However, there remain some areas where we have by an armed firearms officer of Greater Manchester significant differences of principle—notably fisheries, Police as part of the covert investigation named Operation governance arrangements, and the so-called “level playing Shire. A public inquiry was announced by the then field”. It remains difficult to reach a mutually beneficial Home Secretary,Theresa May,in March 2016 to ascertain agreement while the EU maintains an ideological approach. the circumstances surrounding Mr Grainger’s death. 25WS Written Statements 19 MAY 2020 Written Statements 26WS

I would like to thank His Honour Judge Teague for high standards of energy efficiency and that the regime publishing his report and for leading this important for regulating the energy performance of buildings is work, from which we have learnt valuable lessons for robust. the future. The previous Home Secretary Sajid Javid This consultation seeks views on proposals to amend committed to provide a formal response, once the existing requirements for inspecting heating and air Government had fully considered the report, and any conditioning systems in order to improve the regime recommendations therein and we are now in a position and contribute to carbon emission reductions and energy to do so. efficiency savings. The new requirements aim to strengthen The Government accept the inquiry’s recommendation the effectiveness of the regime by increasing the threshold to the Home Office concerning the authorisation of for inspection to focus on larger systems. It further aims new weapon systems. A revised code of practice for to improve the regime’s impact by broadening the scope armed policing and less lethal weapons was published of inspection to include combined heating and ventilation by the College of Policing on 14 January 2020 making it systems and combined air conditioning and ventilation clear that all new less lethal weapons and specialist systems. munitions for use by police forces in England and The Government propose to retain their domestic Wales, and all significant changes to these weapons, arrangements (i.e. take the option of alternative measures). must be approved by the Home Secretary. This means continuing to provide consumers with the The majority of the AGI’s recommendations related advice necessary to make informed decisions on the to operational policing and these are matters on which energy efficiency of their heating systems and widening Chief Officers are independent of Government. Nonetheless the scope to include combined heating and ventilation my officials engaged with the National Police Chiefs systems. The United Kingdom boiler market is the Council and Greater Manchester Police to ensure that biggest in the world and has some of the most experienced they have responded to the concerns raised by the inquiry manufacturers and installers. The United Kingdom’s and understand their plans to improve the safety of equivalence reports, which are required to demonstrate armed policing operations. Their responses have reassured that the domestic policy achieves the aims intended by me that lessons have been learnt to improve the safety the changes to the regulations, have demonstrated that of armed policing operations in the seven years since the carbon savings attributable to the UK’s alternative the death of Anthony Grainger. measures were greater than those that would have been These included developing and maintaining a national achieved through inspection. One of the key elements register of recommendations and lessons from inquests, of the domestic regime is Boiler Plus whose standards investigations and inquiries; reviewing and improving are expected to help reduce carbon emissions by up to [1] [2] the collection, analysis and dissemination of intelligence; 2 MtCO2e in Carbon Budget 4 (2023-2027) and [3] and reviewing and improving the arrangements for the 3.2 MtCO2e in Carbon Budget 5 (2028-2032) , while deployment of armed officers. I would like to thank the enabling consumers to heat homes at a lower cost. National Police Chiefs’ Council, Greater Manchester The consultation also proposes to amend the inspection Police, HMICFRS and the College of Policing for their regime for air conditioning systems,increasing the threshold co-operation in responding to the inquiry and the work and widening the scope to include combined air that they have done to implement learning. conditioning and ventilation systems, bringing with it The police use of firearms, as with any use of force, the benefits of a stronger regime set out above. must be necessary, proportionate and reasonable in the circumstances. It is essential that decisions by the police These measures are only part of our journey towards to use force of any kind are subject to proper scrutiny. a cleaner, greener built environment. The Government are determined that we will be the first generation to Our sympathy remains with Anthony Grainger’s family leave the environment in a better state than we found it, who have lost a loved one. and improving the energy performance of our buildings The response to the Anthony Grainger Inquiry will will be a key factor in tackling climate change, achieving be available to view on gwov.uk at: https://www.gov.uk/ clean growth and safeguarding our planet for the future. government/publications/response-to-the-anthony- This written ministerial statement covers England, grainger-public-inquiry. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland in relation to the [HCWS242] inspection of heating systems. It covers England and Wales in respect of the proposed changes to air conditioning HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL inspections. The devolved Administrations are considering GOVERNMENT similar changes. Energy Performance of Buildings Regulations 2012, The consultation document can be found here: No. 3118: Consultation https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/energy- performance-of-buildings-changes-to-theenergy- performance-of-buildings-regulations-2012-no-3118. The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): I wish to update the House on the publication of a consultation I am depositing a copy of the consultation in the on changes to the Energy Performance of Buildings Libraries of both Houses. (England and Wales) Regulations 2012 (SI2012/3118). [1] A metric measure used to compare the emissions from The United Kingdom has set in law a target to bring different greenhouse gases basedupon their global warming potential (GWP). its greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2050 to help [2] 4th carbon budget (2023 to 2027) 1,950 MtCO e. tackle climate change. Heating and powering buildings 2 [3] th currently accounts for 40% of the UK’s total energy 5 carbon budget (2028 to 2032)1,725 MtCO2e. usage. We must ensure that buildings are constructed to [HCWS243] 27WS Written Statements 19 MAY 2020 Written Statements 28WS

INTERNATIONAL TRADE UK. Removing these tariffs will reduce cost pressures for UK households and businesses (e.g. pistachios from 1.6% to 0% and cotton yarn from 4% to 0%). UK Global Tariff Our tariff will protect developing countries. Tariffs have been retained on goods such as vanilla (6%), plantains (16%) and bed linen (12%) to support the preferential access of The Secretary of State for International Trade (Elizabeth developing countries to the UK market. Truss): As we recover from the unprecedented economic challenges posed by coronavirus, the UK will champion We are cutting tariffs on over 100 products to back renewable energy, energy efficiency, carbon capture, and the free trade, fight protectionism and remove trade barriers. circular economy through recycling and reducing single use The Government have this morning, 19 May 2020 plastics (e.g. thermostats from 2.1% to 0%, vacuum flasks announced their new tariff regime—the UK Global from 6.7% to 0% and LED lamps from 3.7% to 0%). Tariff (UKGT). This will replace the EU’s Common The UKGT also retains tariffs on products across External Tariff on 1 January 2021 at the end of the UK industries and sectors to help them compete on the transition period. global stage. Tariffs on products such as lamb, beef and Our new tariff is tailored to the needs of the UK poultry and finished cars will all see their tariff retained. economy. It will support the country, by making it The Government have developed and tailored the easier and cheaper for businesses to import goods from UKGT to the needs of the whole UK economy. It overseas. was designed following a public consultation, which It is a simpler, easier-to-use and lower tariff regime gave individuals and businesses across the UK an than the EU’s Common External Tariff (EU’s CET) opportunity to provide their views and feedback. The and will be in pounds, not euros. It will scrap red tape Department for International Trade organised events and other unnecessary barriers to trade, reduce cost with businesses and experts across the UK, including in pressures and increase choice for consumers. It will also the English regions and devolved nations, during the back UK industries to compete on the global stage. consultation process. The consultation received more than 1,300 responses. The UKGT almost doubles the number of products that are tariff free relative to what is currently applied—with The Government carefully considered all available just under 50% of products now zero, compared to evidence, including the consultation responses, in the 27% in the EU’s CET. development of the UKGT. The UKGT will make it easier for businesses to trade The summary of consultation responses and the Our tariff will be in pounds—not euros. Paid in pounds, Government’s response can be found at: https://www. calculated in pounds, this is a stable tariff for UK traders. gov.uk/government/consultations/the-uk-global-tariff. Our tariff cuts administrative costs for businesses. We are Copies will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. getting rid of needless tariffs which create administrative burdens. All tariffs below 2% are gone (e.g. fire extinguishers, For the first time in almost 50 years, the UK has set school pencils and gardening tools, from 1.7% to 0%). its own tariff schedule, aimed at boosting prosperity, Our tariff is simpler to use. We will round tariffs down, supporting British industry, making it easier to bring making them simpler for traders to use (e.g. reading glasses goods into the UK and reducing cost pressures for from 2.9% to 2% and alarm clocks from 4.7% to 4%). We consumers. will also scrap the complex calculation—which results in over 13,000 tariff variations on products like biscuits, The full schedule can be found at: https://www.gov.uk/ confectionery, and spreads—applied under the EU’s CET. guidance/uk-tariffs-from-1-january-2021. The UKGT will reduce cost pressures and increase choice for UK households. Tariffs have been removed on products [HCWS241] that we do not produce, or do not produce much of in the

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 19 May 2020

Col. No. Col. No. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS...... 484 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Buildings, Liturgy and Worship: Adaptation ...... 485 continued Church of England Schools: Support for Children Food Security...... 473 and Parents ...... 488 Food Supply...... 471 Clergy Discipline Process ...... 486 Pubs as Takeaway Restaurants...... 469 Clergy’s Access to Churches...... 485 Supermarket Supply Chains...... 470 Remote Access to Church Services...... 487 Supermarkets: Good Hygiene and Social Support for Hospital Chaplains ...... 488 Distancing ...... 472 Support for People in Need...... 486 UK Food Producers...... 474 HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 478 ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 481 Covid-19: Parliamentary Estate ...... 480 Boundary Review in England...... 482 Hybrid Proceedings in Parliament...... 479 Digital Election Campaigning: Transparency...... 483 Isolation of House Staff: Gemma White QC Electoral Commission: Effectiveness...... 481 Recommendations ...... 478 PARLIAMENTARY WORKS SPONSOR BODY.... 481 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS. 469 Parliamentary Works Programme: Cost...... 481 Commercial and Household Waste Collection...... 476 Covid-19 Death and Infection Rate: Air Quality.... 477 PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION ...... 483 Covid-19 Lockdown: Air Quality...... 475 Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme: Date of Financial Support for Food Producers...... 474 Eligibility ...... 483 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 19 May 2020

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 23WS INTERNATIONAL TRADE ...... 27WS Future Relationship with the EU: Negotiations..... 23WS UK Global Tariff...... 27WS HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 24WS Anthony Grainger Inquiry Report ...... 24WS HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL TREASURY ...... 24WS GOVERNMENT...... 25WS UK Counter-Terrorist Asset Freezing Regime: Energy Performance of Buildings Regulations 1 October 2019 to 31 December 2019...... 24WS 2012, No. 3118: Consultation...... 25WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 26 May 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 676 Tuesday No. 60 19 May 2020

CONTENTS

Tuesday 19 May 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 469] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs House of Commons Commission Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body Speaker’s Electoral Commission Committee Public Accounts Commission Church Commissioners

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 491]

Coronavirus and Care Homes [Col. 492] Answer to urgent question—(Matt Hancock)

Future Relationship with the EU: Negotiations [Col. 503] Answer to urgent question—(Michael Gove)

Parliamentary Constituencies [Col. 512] Bill presented, and read the First time

Human Tissue [Col. 513] Motion—(Helen Whately)—agreed to

Constitutional Law [Col. 527] Motion—(Douglas Ross)—agreed to

Finance Bill (Ways and Means) [Col. 542] Motion—(Jesse Norman)—agreed to

Written Statements [Col. 23WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]