Oral history interviews of the Vietnam Era Oral History Project

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Version 3 August 20, 2018

Elroy Schwirtz Narrator

Douglas Bekke Interviewer

May 25, 2018 Arlington, Minnesota

Douglas Bekke -DB Elroy “Blackie” Schwirtz -ES

DB: Minnesota Historical Society Vietnam Oral History Project. Interview with Elroy “Blackie” Schwirtz in Arlington, MN on 25 May 2018. Mr. Schwirtz can you please say and spell your name.

ES: First name— Elroy E-l-r-o-y and Schwirtz S-c-h-w-i-r-t-z. The “Blackie” comes from the ethnic part of our community here — which is a German community and— the word— they mispronounce the name Schwirtz to Schwartz. And that of course is the color black in German. My Dad had the nickname and so did I.

DB: And the date and place of birth?

ES: Green Isle Township

DB: I’m sorry what township?

ES: Green Isle.

DB: Green Isle?

ES: Green Isle Township. And — August the seventeenth, 1929.

DB: Okay. And what do you know about your ancestry?

ES: Well, very little outside of my grandfather. Oh, about both grandfathers I have a little history of. My — my mother’s father came from Germany and during the course of his last years he fell of a hay wagon and broke his back and died in the family farm. The family had to move off — the mother couldn’t support their children she had. You know my mother.

DB: This is — you’re alive at this point?

ES: Pardon me?

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DB: You’ve been born at this point?

ES: No.

DB: Oh, you haven’t.

ES: No before that. But—

DB: Okay.

ES: I was born just shortly after that. My father’s dad was a heavy— into the banking and farming. Sort of a prosperous gentleman that didn’t follow my father-in-law very well but uh — so my childhood was kind of— what can I say— poor. It’s about the best word to say it so.

DB: Did you— did you grow up on a farm or a small town?

ES: No. The— my folks moved off of the farm when I was one year old and moved into the city— into the community here.

DB: In Arlington?

ES: In Arlington.

DB: So, you grew up in Arlington?

ES: I did. Yeah.

DB: Okay. And— do you know anything about how your parents met? Any of their— little more of their background?

ES: Oh boy, I guess I don’t— I know a smattering about it. They —when my mother’s father died, she moved into a little house across the local crick from the farm that my grandfather had and of course my father was doing farm work out there and jumping across the crick was just a matter of neighborliness and helping with farms and chores and so forth. So that’s how they met. Course a few years later I was born (laughs) quite a few years later I was born.

DB: And did you say your dad’s side of the family was German too?

ES: Yes.

DB: Yes. And did they have any stories about the First World War? Had they— had anybody in the family served in the First World War?

ES: Yes— my mother’s brother was a — was a sergeant in WWI. He brought home many souvenirs, like the old rifles and so forth and some German NCOsabers. And bits and pieces of

35 the old uniform— his entire uniform which was later destroyed somehow or another. We never did keep it as a family heirloom right.

DB: Was this primarily a German community?

ES: Yes.

DB: Arlington? Any stories about prejudice against Germans during World War I? Discrimination?

ES: Not that I would recall. But it did— my uncle— my mother’s brother very well because he could speak fluent German. I think that’s how he made his rank when he was over in Germany.

DB: How about influenza? Did influenza affect your family? Or this community very much? After the first war?

ES: Not that I recall. My— I had had a brother that died of a combination of pneumonia and measles. He was only twelve years old and they had no way of curing either one I guess at that time so.

DB: That was probably in the thirties?

ES: Well let’s see. I was one year old when he died, so — 1929 — I suppose 1930. Yeah.

DB: Yeah right in there, okay. And how did the Depression affect your family and this community growing up?

ES: It was a combination of factors. My father had a severe case of asthma and course he was on the farm and stood it for as many years as he could. And then finally during the Depression it was kind of hopeless out on the farm. We did moved to town and—

DB: And they lost the farm, or they sold the farm?

ES: They lost the farm. And like I say when we moved to town I don’t remember much until you know I was about four or five years old I suppose. But all I remember that what we had was what we had. There was no — no — big money to be spent or anything like that so.

DB: And what did your dad do then to earn money?

ES: He worked in the local canning factory. We had a little— a little five acres plot south of town which he kind of used as a small little farm. We raised a couple pigs and milked some cows. Made a little bit of hay on a few acres we had. But most of the money came from the local canning factory. My mother worked in a produce plant in town here that — that bought and sold chickens. Provided chickens for the army during World War II. And eggs and that sort of thing.

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She was one of them that would pick the feathers off of the chickens as they went by on a conveyor. I think for 15 cents an hour I think or something like that so.

DB: The small plot of land that your father farmed wasn’t just a hobby farm? It provided for your family too.

ES: It did provide, yeah. My mother had a large garden which she did a lot of canning in. She canned chicken and canned beef and that sort of thing — yeah — for our survival, which we — I guess we never missed any of the can goods that ordinarily people would.

DB: You had plenty to eat.

ES: Plenty to eat.

DB: Thanks to your parent’s hard work.

ES: Yes.

DB: And how many siblings did you have?

ES: I had three sisters and one brother.

DB: And the brother is the one that passed away when he was twelve?

ES: Yes. And the other one passed — my final sister, last sister passed away here just this last winter. She was ninety — ninety-four years old when she passed away.

DB: Were you the baby of the family?

ES: Yes.

DB: Okay— okay. And — you’re five years old — it’s about the time I think you moved into town? And you’re going to school here? Do you remember much about the school?

ES: Sure.

DB: Grade School.

ES: Sure, I remember there was a religious parochial school.

DB: Lutheran?

ES: Lutheran. Yeah, we prayed in the morning when we — came to school. Prayed at noon to go home and eat. Prayed at coming home from noon meal, and then we prayed again at the end of the day. So I had plenty of religion for eight years of that — eight years of Lutheran parochial school.

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DB: And who were the teachers?

ES: Mr. Tim, as I remember. And a Mr. Zarling. I don’t remember their first names anymore. The old professor's, what they called a professor, his name was Gerlach. He was very stern German type, disciplinarian. He did get the belt and we all hoped that his pants would fall down when he took his belt off to beat somebody else.

DB: (Laughs) Did they?

ES: (Laughs) No.

DB: No. (Both Laugh) So there were men and women there that were teachers?

ES: Yes.

DB: And, the curriculum— was it fairly rigorous?

ES: Boy I don’t recall that. I know we — we course learned the ABC’s and multiplications and all that. I did really well in parochial school. A’s and just a few B’s. I was kind of proud of that.

DB: Mr. Gerlach, did he have to take his belt off for you?

ES: No, no, no.

DB: Okay.

ES: I think he gave me a couple stern looks at one time or another, but that was—

DB: That was enough to keep you in line?

ES: Oh my goodness, yeah. But my folks would never forgive me if I got a whipping at school because they’d certainly give one at home.

DB: So— so if you got in trouble at school that was just the beginning of your problems?

ES: Yeah, that was just the beginning of the problems—

DB: Okay. Your parents were pretty strict too?

ES: Yeah— my mother was very religious. She — yeah she went by the Bible here quite often. So she was really the disciplinary. My dad didn’t do as much as she did.

DB: And did the school provide you with — extracurricular activities? Did they have band, choir, art things? Did they have sport activities?

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ES: None of that. We had a recess as they called it and we had kind of a smattering of what you call ball. The old Professor Gerlach would pitch it to us and we would have to bat it. Pretend to run around the bases and that sort of thing. But it wasn’t really a knock down, dragged out—

DB: Nothing formal?

ES: No.

DB: Okay. And so — you go through the parochial school till eighth grade?

ES: Yes

DB: And then you’re going to high school? And where was that?

ES: It was Arlington High School at that time and — that was quite a comedown for me because my grades immediately dropped. It was not the discipline anymore. I found out that they had girls going to school — that was kind of my downfall I guess I –

DB: So in – in the parochial school it was only boys?

ES: No. It was boys and girls but it wasn’t even –

DB: They separated you?

ES: (laughs) Oh they didn’t let you look at one of them very easily. Oh you could if you wanted to but just to talk to one would probably be – get you into trouble some sort or another.

DB: Okay. So things were looser in the high school?

ES: Oh yeah.

DB: And pretty much all the same kids?

ES: A lot of them stayed home to work on the family farms.

DB: A lot of them would quit after eighth grade?

ES: Yeah.

DB: That wasn’t unusual?

ES: No.

DB: Okay, okay. But your parents wanted you to go on and finish getting your education?

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ES: Oh yeah.

DB: And – how big was the class?

ES: I think probably about 12 if I remember right. I don’t have a picture of our graduating class and parochial school. It was pretty small. And of course we had met up with the other graduating eighth graders at the – the high school. It escapes me how many we had in the grade there, but quite – you know – pretty big. Probably about 30 students I would say.

DB: In high school?

ES: Yeah.

DB: Because now you got the parochial school and the public school kids coming in?

ES: Sure.

DB: Okay, okay. And – you said this is where you discovered girls?

ES: (laughs) Yes. I – I estimate that was probably my downfall of everything – the freedom and – I’m just kidding about the girls of course, but I never noticed much before.

DB: And Arlington in those days had what – 1,000 people? 800 people?

ES: Probably a little more than that. I would say maybe 12 – 1,500 bracket. We just beat the 200 – or the 2,000 one here just a few years ago so. It’s always been pretty small.

DB: So, what would a teenager do? You discovered these girls – what would you do?

ES: Well, probably meet up with them in a local bowling alley or – and sit in a booth and drink pop and smoke cigarettes – of course – you know that was a big thing those years. There was really nothing formal about the dating – it was just if you happened to meet one along the way in the high school – in the bowling alley or some other event in town. That was kind of a date then.

DB: Just kind of hang out?

ES: Yeah. Just hanging out.

DB: And what would it cost to have a Coke or a – did you have a movie theatre in town?

ES: Yeah, we did. Yeah. I think at that time it was about 10 cents. And –

DB: And the movie theatre?

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ES: Actually, it wasn’t a theatre. It was a – a community building that a local auto dealer set up as a – projection equipment in. And he charged for showing movies, but he could get movies – and cartoons of course. It was a big thing. So it wasn’t really what you would call a theatre.

DB: And about this time you’re probably learning to drive? Or had you learned to drive – helping out your dad?

ES: No. My dad never had a car. He drove horses until we moved to town and then depending on my – on my sister who was old enough to buy a car at that time. That’s how I learned to drive. We had a – what was it, a ’41 Ford – and we took it out in one of our pastures and drove it around till I knew how to handle it. I went to the local bank to get my driver’s license and I think it cost me 50 cents to buy the license. No test or nothing like that. Just a matter of hard cash really (laughs) for the driver’s license.

DB: And was .50 cents significant at that point?

ES: Oh god – .50 cents was hard to come by. There’s no doubt about that.

DB: And what would you do to earn money in those days? When you’re a teenager?

ES: Um – there really wasn’t much around. The farm kids all had benefits by being able to help out in the farm. Well of course they didn’t get much money for that either but. I remember – what we would do was ask this – the city dray people to – if we could help unload packages out of the freight trains coming through around to a truck and then deliver them to the various businesses in the community. And – and there was something to do with the eggs too. We picked up eggs – with the local vendor that would buy and sell eggs and then deliver them to the local produce plant or to the local grocery stores. They would candle them and then sell them from there.

DB: And what was your range as a teenager? Would you get to – to Winthrop? Would you get up to Norwood?

ES: (Sighs) With our – with our limited transportation – my sister’s car – we went as far as Winthrop. Let me think – Stewart. She met her husband at Stewart. We would drive that far. In Winthrop she had relatives there. Yeah. My –

DB: You’d think about these communities in those days were – and there was a lot more small farms around. Were these communities real vibrant? A lot of things going on? More stores?

ES: No. There was just a – there were more bars than stores for sure. And maybe at least maybe two grocery stores in our community here. I think up and down Main Street there was six — beer joint is what they were. One city owned liquor store. In the other communities they had – like a chicken fries. They’d have a celebration. They’d have Grackle Days over in Winthrop – which was kind of a big thing those years. Gaylord had Fourth of July celebration – they always had fireworks. Green Isle didn’t have much, except they – over there they had a dentist who owned some projection equipment. He hung a bedsheet on the side of a barn and we could watch

41 the movie for free in Green Isle. And that was pretty big stuff if we could find a ride to get to Green Isle from here.

DB: And it’s a German community. Were there – was German spoken fairly commonly in the community?

ES: Oh yes. Yes our Lutheran church here didn’t give up – I don’t recall the year anymore – but we had to learn our Christmas programs in English and German. Finally after – I don’t recall what happened. I think after my eighth grade then they gave up the German speaking of a – sermons and so forth. All of the – just about—memorizing everything in English and German.

DB: But you’d hear it spoken on the streets?

ES: Oh yeah. Especially in the bars because you know the farmers had came to town to grind feed in the morning. You know they were all – remnants of that Depression era I suppose. They were more than willing to drink and talk in German until the feed mill opened up (laughs). We had to leave the bar.

DB: So it was happy days when the – when Prohibition ended?

ES: Yeah (laughs).

DB: Was the drinking ever a problem in the community? That you remember?

ES: Oh yeah. Matter of fact the – the local city owned liquor store had what they called a black list – that or no anybody else would remember something like that in their community but – the wives would arrange to get their husbands names on the blacklist. And of course the manager could not sell them anymore drinks. But it didn’t prevent their friends from buying a half pint – or a pint – or whatever to deliver to the gentleman that wanted it, so. Now it was a – I’m sure there’s – I couldn’t name how many farms were lost because of drinking, but there was a few.

DB: Significant problem anyway. And what about your peers? The other kids – was there a temptation for them to start drinking a lot too?

ES: No. Eh – not much. If they could finagle a beer out of somebody they would be kind of proud of that. As a senior that was pretty prominent. You know they could – you could pass off as an 18 year old – buy all the beer and cigarettes that you wanted. Yeah.

DB: As you’re growing up – you’re in let’s see you would have been about twelve years old when World War II started ’41. And how did that change the community?

ES: Oh – pretty much it – god – pretty much the– I can’t remember how we had a, I think 115 men left at one congregation. We had a big Lutheran congregation. There was 115 men – as I recall that was the last count – that left out a World War II – for World War II –

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DB: Out of Arlington alone?

ES: Out of Arlington alone. And– matter of fact the man who got Italy, by the name of Arthur Zigler, that our local VFW post is named after him. Arthur Zigler post number 6031. Before he left for the war he – it was really uh couple so to speak. But he did date my sister – my youngest sister above me. My mother and his mother were very close friends and there was a kind of a terrible blow when she got word that he had gotten killed in action.

DB: Casualty – hit close to home. Were there many other casualties in town?

ES: During World War II there was – I think there was three others that got killed. In World War II we had – we had three of them. And those two were named again for the legion club. There was – Manthy – I can’t remember what their names are right now but. The legion post was named after the two gentlemen that got killed in World War I. And — — and we have a lot of souvenirs from WWI in our local VFW display case – rifles and those bayonets – those sabers that my uncle brought back and that sort of thing.

DB: Those things found a good home.

ES: Yeah.

DB: And uh you would have been twelve years old – you would have been about sixth grade – was the war talked about a lot in school?

ES: No – no really. Not that I recall –

DB: Didn’t follow current affairs very much?

ES: No.

DB: Okay.

ES: If there was a neighbor that got – you know – drafted or something like that, or whatever, it was discussed a little bit. “Did you hear that so and so – left for the service”

DB: More personal things rather than officially following it in the schools or something. It wasn’t so much a part of the curriculum?

ES: Pardon me?

DB: It wasn’t so much a part of the curriculum?

ES: No – no, no.

DB: Okay, okay. And were there scrap drives here? Rationing? Do you remember much about that?

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ES: Oh yeah. Rationing yeah. There’s a little story behind that. My dad worked in a canning factory – or yeah in a canning factory and they put sugar – I don’t know much sugar – in each can of corn. Of course they got – they were allowed to bring that in by the freight car loader. He managed to sneak a sack home every now and then. So there was a lot of rationing. We had gasoline cards. I didn’t have much to do with that. But if you had an A card you got a lot of gas and if you had a B card you didn’t get quite as much.

DB: Um-hm, um-hm.

ES: Some of the groceries were rationed as well. And uh –

DB: But a lot of your food was still coming from your own production anyway? So probably didn’t affect you that much

ES: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No it didn’t. And we had – like I say on our little five acres we had several cows, so we had all the milk we wanted and butter and that sort of thing so.

DB: And that wasn’t unusual in the community at all in those days?

ES: No.

DB: Okay. And you’re sixteen years old when the war [World War I] ends – there abouts?

ES: Yeah.

DB: And was there a big celebration in town?

ES: Ah – there was a celebration, but I don’t – I don’t recall how big it was. When the guys came home there was a celebration by their family all the time and the trickled back home all the time. I can’t recall a big celebration. Probably out in Memorial Day was probably more than anything.

DB: And what kind of celebration would they have on Memorial Day – or commemorations?

ES: Well just a gathering and usually a high school band — of course in the early days we had a community band that would play for that. They were quite good but they’d just play like marches that’s the best – probably the only tunes that they knew how to play as a group. And I don’t – I don’t recall a – any big celebrations at all besides Memorial Day. Matter of fact we get – I’m in charge of Memorial Day services here. Well this is an aside but – on Monday. I have been for twenty years.

DB: By 1945 we fought two wars against Germany and this was a German community. Was the German – aspects of German culture diminishing in town? Was German spoken? Was there a pressure to –?

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ES: No – there was less German spoken, but the old habits, you know, would still be – like everybody had a garden of course and all that. Everybody had a cow in town as a matter of fact. And not everybody on the outskirts of town had a cow. And of course they still supported the old outhouses at that time. So it – as far as the German language it– it probably disappeared probably during that – during my graduation days. There’s still a – there’s today a few guys that you know – their mostly passed away, but there’s still one or two around that –

DB: But it wasn’t because of political pressure or outside pressure? Nothing like that – it just kind of faded away?

ES: It just faded away. Yeah.

DB: Because people got farther and farther away from their German heritage. Did – you had electricity in your home – growing up?

ES: Uh, yes – yes.

DB: You had a radio?

ES: Uh – (laughs) of sorts, yeah it was a radio. We listed to uh Jack Armstrong the All- American Boy and Gabriel Heatter – and out of the metropolitan area we had we had an announcer, but I can’t think of his name right now. My mother would listen to him every noon. So –

DB: Cedric Adams?

ES: Cedric Adams, yes that was – yep. She felt a personal loss when he died – just like losing a family member.

DB: She listened to him for a long time.

DB: So your time in school is coming to an end – you graduated from high school?

ES: No.

DB: And – so what – as you’re in high school what are you – what are your ambitions? What are you thinking that you want to do?

ES: I – I just wanted to find a – find a job. So I wanted to work and probably get married and have kids.

DB: You wanted some freedom? Wanted to get out?

ES: Yeah.

DB: And what were – what were the possibilities for that?

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ES: Pretty slim – there was never work to be found.

DB: So and – during the war had the economic situation in town improve because of the war? You said there was a canning factory – and there was a factory with chickens and that. Was there a lot more work and thus more – somewhat more prosperity because of the war?

ES: I can’t say more prosperity. There was probably less jobs available with the veterans coming back and that sort of thing. Chances of finding a – well you could find mowing a lawn or something I suppose. But then you had a – there as the – the gasoline driven wasn’t too much at that time either. You know it was the push mowers. Yeah at the end of – the end of high school was a great thing for me I guess. But –

DB: “The end” being your decision to quit?

ES: Well, yep.

DB: And you quit when you were seventeen?

ES: Well, I quite– my grades were never that good anyway so I immediately enlisted in the marine corps.

DB: And how old were you?

ES: Seventeen.

DB: Did your parents have to sign for you?

ES: Uh-hm.

DB: And they were okay with that?

ES: Uh-hm. Oh shortly after that we had many of my graduating class entered the service – mostly in the army. Two other gentlemen and myself – kids I should say I guess – and myself entered the marine corps. And shortly after that I’d say there was about a dozen that went into the army because of that same reason. There was no – no jobs to be found and no money to go to school. There was a few – a few of them that could go to, got to college in St. Cloud and the metropolitan area. But not many.

DB: And what prompted your decision to go into the marine corps? As opposed to the army or the navy or the air force?

ES: Probably the glory (laughs).

DB: Had you talked to young men in town who had been in the marines?

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ES: I knew several World War II veterans – yeah – that were in the Marines and – and in the army too. I talked to them. But it just didn’t seem as glorious or as – as rigid, I suppose, training as it would be –

DB: The Marines seemed like a– like a better challenge?

ES: It was, yeah.

DB: More exciting?

ES: Um-hm.

DB: Okay.

ES: Matter of fact I’ll be celebrating my 71st anniversary here the fourth of June.

DB: So what was the process of entering the marine corps? Where was the recruiter? How did you get to the recruiting station? Talk about that experience a little bit.

ES: Well, I think we sought out the recruiter.

DB: And where did you have to go?

ES: I would go down to Minneapolis and talk to the recruiter.

DB: How did you get up there? How did a person get to Minneapolis in 1947?

ES: We hitchhiked.

DB: Really? And that was – that was doable? People would pick you up?

ES: Oh yeah – yeah. Hitchhiking was easy those years. And because of the war I suppose that they’d help anybody out.

DB: And I guess there was four of you that went up together?

ES: Three.

DB: Three? Okay.

ES: We did all the necessary things like getting our parents to sign and – what else did we – that was about it. Get our parents to sign it.

DB: Had to take some tests?

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ES: Take some tests and then we took our paper work up there and they says, “Okay – you’re leaving the day after tomorrow.” So, we went home and did what we had to do. And then – left by train. They gave us some meal tickets from –

DB: So you had to hitchhike up there to enlist?

ES: Yup.

DB: Then back home?

ES: Then back home.

DB: And then hitchhike back to Minneapolis to depart?

ES: Yep.

DB: Okay. Was the testing at all rigorous? Was it challenging to get in?

ES: I don’t recall that. It was – some questions might have been. Really all they ask you “what’s your parent’s name” and that sort of thing. Your ethnic background and –

DB: Count your fingers. Count your toes.

ES: Yeah. It wasn’t very strenuous. Course any –

DB: So you get on the train – and where are you going?

ES: We get on the train. We’re going to San Diego.

DB: And prior to that was Minneapolis the farthest you’d ever been away from home?

ES: No. My sister took me and my nephew to Yellowstone Park with her ’41 Ford.

DB: Oh – okay.

ES: And – We packed sandwiches to take along and stayed in some crude cabins in those years. They didn’t have much for tourists. But yeah – that was the farthest away I’d been, but then Minneapolis of course. And—

DB: Okay, so you’re on a train and where are you going?

ES: We’re going to San Diego and we get off of the train and – getting off the train and –

DB: Was there a bigger group of recruits now that were on the train with you?

ES: No – no just the –

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DB: three of you –

ES: Just the three of us. And of course when we did get off of the train – I can’t recall how they – there was a bigger group that – I don’t know where they came from, but we were met by a drill instructor. Private First Class (laughs) – and just as mean as a little snake. God, anyway he –

DB: Welcome to the marine corps.

ES: Oh yeah.

DB: And what were you thinking?

ES: Huh, well – “what did I get myself into?” (Laughter). Anyway it turned out alright. Training was pretty – pretty tough. And our welcome into the marine corps was telling us how dumb we were and “we’re going to change you.” Course shaved off all head hair to begin with. And then the training started. But they were pretty cautious about footwork – I can remember that specifically. They had a – I don’t know if they called it an x-ray or what it was, but they would try to remember what size boot you’d have. And then put you on this little stand and – floroscope or what I couldn’t remember. I don’t remember how they did it. But they would see how those boots fit. It was good. I mean –

DB: They made sure the boots fit?

ES: Yeah.

DB: Feet are important.

ES: Yeah — for all the walking we had to do of course. They – shoot I can’t remember what – I think they called them boondockers. It as a high shoe.

DB: The ankle boots?

ES: Yep. And then they had the leather was turned out – turned around. It was a smooth side in, and the fuzzy side out as I can recall. Those were the boondockers – lot of miles in those.

DB: And the leggings – the canvas leggings?

ES: Oh yeah. We had the canvas leggings right up into – well right up into Korea we had the canvas leggings.

DB: And did you find the training challenging? Were you in pretty good shape as a young man?

ES: Oh yeah. Yeah – it wasn’t too hard to do everything they asked you know. Your memory was tested a lot. “Which is your right foot? Which is your left foot?” And our – they were fair,

49 but they were firm. And our – I guess our rifle training was probably the most rigorous. We had three weeks of that.

DB: Had you done much shooting before you went into the service?

ES: No. My dad had a .22 rifle that I popped a few rabbits, but I –

DB: You didn't come from a hunting family particularly?

ES: No. But I did shoot expert in the rifle range – and a matter of fact in the pistol range I did too. But ever since then I didn’t even qualify on a .45 because that was a different weapon anyway those years. Pretty heavy.

DB: You got – you’re coming from German-American Arlington, Minnesota and you get to San Diego in the marine corps – and now you’ve got people from everywhere.

ES: (laughs) That was a rude awakening.

DB: What was that experience?

ES: Well we had a – one individual enlisted and he was a California native. He walked with – I don’t know a kind of swagger you would call it. Just thought he was as cool a cat or whatever they – we’d call him in those years. There was several instances like that – it was different people. Different walks of life. That was an eye opening as well too.

DB: Any specific problems with – any dealing with all these people or – or was it the drill sergeant’s problem to get them in line?

ES: That was the drill sergeant's problem but –

DB: Did they seem –

ES: Pardon me.

DB: Did they succeed?

ES: Oh yes (laughs). Lord definitely yeah. Either that or they bounced them out. That was – those years they didn’t – there was no thing like – nothing like you’d either go to jail or you go to the marine corps from a judge. They’d never – there was none of that. These were all volunteers so it was alright. I don’t think they thought very much of us dumb Midwestern folks, but they always appreciated that we were as well behaved as we were rather than the people that came from California and New York, or whatever. Yeah that was a – it was a learning experience for sure.

DB: So after basic training you were gonna be in the infantry? Or what was your role – what was your assignment?

50

ES: No. After basic training the – there again – it was more of an appearance thing and behavioral thing. They assigned me to what they called “Sea-School” – to serve on a – well my job eventually turned out to be an admiral’s orderly.

DB: You’re a Sea Marine?

ES: Yeah. Sea-going marine – which there are no more anymore. That’s another story. But they – the training was more just telling navy time and what wall became a bulkhead, and the floor became a deck – that kind of training. How to salute an officer and what the naval officers’ uniforms were. It was easy training. And then I was assigned to a ship, but the ship wasn’t available at the time of graduation from Sea School.

DB: Because it was at sea or –

ES: Because it was at sea or up in a dry dock or something. But then we had to wait for a particular admiral as well. So we just didn’t jump on a ship just to be waiting for him. We had to – actually we waited on a north island barracks in San Diego. Well finally he did arrive and we reported to the ship. The first ship I served on was the USS Princeton.

DB: A cruiser?

ES: No – aircraft carrier.

DB: Oh, um-hm.

ES: And – well, to go forward in time I served on – the admiral moved to the USS Tarawa – another aircraft carrier. And then finally to USS Boxer – named after the Boxer Rebellion. And I finished my navy – my sea time at – on the USS Boxer.

DB: And so you moved wherever the admiral went? You belonged to him – not the ship?

ES: That’s right – yeah.

DB: And what kind of duties did you have as an admiral’s orderly?

ES: Well, just to stand and guard duty outside of his– outside of his office. Uh – not much at night. We just had to – during working hours. And if he had wanted to see somebody we – you know of course he called us – they called us seagoing marines but seagoing bellhops is what they called us. We’d have to go and find a particular navy officer that he wanted to talk to or something like that. So the duties were pretty simple.

DB: Boring?

ES: Yes – it was very boring. And then they finally transferred to the ships detachment. We had a detachment – there was a detachment of marines on all those aircraft carriers – matter of

51 fact on a lot of ships. I think we had 60 marines on the ship too. Of course their history was to make – make landings off of the old pirate day’s clipper ships. Navy people couldn’t fight so they always carried a compliment of marines aboard. So that tradition followed through until just a few years ago when they discontinued that.

DB: But in reality, because you weren’t going to be boarding a pirate ship or something anymore.

ES: No – no.

DB: Or a British ship or whatever. What was the main duty of the sea marines on the ship? To keep order – keep the sailors in line?

ES: No, no, no. Nothing like that. We – gunnery. We manned on our ship – we manned the 20 millimeter anti-aircraft. And there was a number of tubs around us – surrounding the flight deck. We would have to man them – and of course we cleaned them about you know – every other day, so it was those. Then we had gunnery practice. On other aircraft carriers they manned the 40 millers – millimeters, which is a little bit bigger. And then guard duty on the – on the entrance to the ships. You had to go by a marine first and then you could report on to the ship.

DB: Was that better duty? Being in the detachment than being the admiral’s orderly?

ES: Yes – yes it was. Yes it was. It was still, you know, not really – what can I say – physically demanding. Keeping your uniform this starch that is stiffly as possible and being a –

DB: Did you have a lieutenant in charge – or a captain?

ES: Matter of fact on that – on the Boxer it was a major. But it was– they were normally with a captain because that was, you know, a pretty small organization. But I think he was promoted to major because his time was up as the captain and he had to take the commission you had to take to be a major. And our first sergeant under him was a marine pilot – a captain – during World War II. He was kind of – disgruntled that he was reduced to the rank of first sergeant. So, he was pretty tough to deal with. But he retired at the rank of captain anyway, so it didn’t make any difference you know.

DB: Were there very many other WWII veterans in your group? In your unit?

ES: No.

DB: Mostly young guys like you?

ES: Sure. No there were a lot of high school onto the ship – yeah, yup.

DB: Were you a fairly proud and cocky group?

52

ES: I can’t say – well, yeah I guess in a way we were. The matter of fact, this sergeant was – this first sergeant was a drill master. He was just great. I don’t know if you know what a – if anyone knows what a Queen Anne solute was. We did that with him once and that was – you flip them up in the air and catch them and drop to your knees and so forth. Different squad movements – he was great at that. I took a lot of that back to the VFW when I did leave the marine corps. And we had a drill team here in town. Anyway –

DB: So how long were you a sea marine?

ES: Two years. And then when I came –

DB: How – what was your enlistment?

ES: Three years.

DB: Three years? Okay.

ES: And then when it came to –

DB: So it was probably ’49 now – 1949?

ES: Yes – yes.

DB: And what was your next assignment going to be?

ES: My next assignment – they tried to transfer us to as close to your home as possible, so they didn’t have to pay the travel – I don’t know what the difference was because the government had to pay the travel to your new base anyway. So, I was assigned to – we had a choice. I was gonna be transferred to Olathe Marine Air Base in Olathe, Kansas or Hastings Demolition Depot in Hastings, Nebraska. You – that was the one that went out. I was transferred to the Hastings Demolition Depot in Hastings, Nebraska – which was very good duty.

There’s a story behind that – the government took over in order to establish an ammunition base. They confiscated – I guess that’s a good word for it – confiscated fifty-five thousand acres of prime farmland, including a small city. Paid them whatever the government thought it was worth. And then they immediately built concrete bunkers and buildings to manufacture bombs and ammunition for – well not only navy weapons, but for anything that would be a gentle caliber for all services.

ES: That was quite an experience. We had to stand gate duty. There was a – when the workers came through we had to admit the workers through. When they left we had to search the vehicles so that they weren’t transporting any government material out. And then finally it – finally close out. But they’d – I’d travel through the base because I was only there just a few months before I got discharged. And it was a huge base and they had a large dog – dog compound because the navy would use guard dogs to per – to guard – to circle on the perimeter on the base, which was on fifty-five thousand acres – that was a lot of perimeter. They used

53 guard dogs a lot and they had a regular mess hall for the dogs and the men that guarded – that serviced them. So that was an interesting tour of duty.

DB: You mean they had a mess hall to feed the men and the dogs together?

ES: Yep.

DB: Hm –

ES: Well not in one – one building of course.

DB: Right, but – anyways the dogs probably ate pretty well?

ES: Oh yeah. Yeah – yeah.

DB: Good duty for the dogs at least –

ES: Good duty for the dogs – yeah. And– well, that led me up to time of – I don’t have too many experiences about that. Oh yeah I guess there’s one that – one of the other fellas that I enlisted with got sent up to Great Lakes Naval Training Station for his discharge. To the marine barracks up there. Matter of fact they both did. Then the one came home on leave shortly before we got discharged and contracted – I think they called it pulmonary pneumonia. And at that time I guess there was no cure for it so he died shortly after he got back to the naval training station. The other – the other gentleman had to escort his body back to Arlington, Minnesota. And that came by freight train. And it was a very spooky evening because I – I met the train at the train depot to unload the casket.

DB: So, you were – you were already discharged and home?

ES: No – no we were – just before we got discharged.

DB: Hm – okay. (cell phone rings)

ES: That’s mine –

DB: So –

ES: So we met – in our local Lutheran minister and I met the train — as I say it was a dark night—and it was kind of spooky to unload a fellow marine’s remains in the middle of the night and that was kind of a – tear jerker.

DB: Plus, a friend.

ES: Plus, a friend – yeah.

DB: A hometown boy – another hometown boy.

54

ES: Yeah – anyway he went to – we took him to the local undertaker. Shortly after that we conducted a military funeral for him with the two of us folding the flag. It was a tearful experience. So – then I went back to Hastings and the last thing I did was – I thought – they asked if we were going to sign-up in the reserves and thought, As hard as I fought for the – to be a PFC I suppose I better keep a PFC. So I signed up for the reserves. And then I came home.

DB: And this would have been in ’49 – or ’50?

ES: ’50 – well yeah –

DB: Early ’50 –

ES: Early – yep. It was June of ’50 – because that was – I enlisted for, you know, three years prior to that.

DB: You came home in June of ’50 and joined the reserves – and in June of ’50 the Korean War starts.

ES: That’s part of the story, yeah (laughs).

DB: Yeah, okay.

ES: Yeah and– anyway –

DB: Where was your reserve unit – your marine reserve unit?

ES: Oh it was just inactive – it was just a standby reserve. And – so we didn’t have to do anything. I came home and tried to find jobs – I was a cook for a while. Table waiter for a while. What other jobs did I have? I tried construction – and I liked that pretty well – the money was better. Then along about November – can’t remember the date – I get a postcard saying that I was recalled to active duty. So then –

DB: Why did you – what did you think about that?

ES: Oh boy. Well it took a six-pack and a quarter brandy to go out and tell my fellow marine that I went into service with. He got one too. So we just got out and – drowned our sorrows (laughs) it was pretty (laughs).

DB: You had a pretty good idea you were going to Korea?

ES: Oh yeah. It was just about everybody went to Korea. So – we reported back and –

DB: Two of you together?

55

ES: We reported together, but he went one direction and I went another. And course we started some training and there was a lot of WWII marines that probably were left over from WWII –

DB: Who’d been called up?

ES: Yeah – they were called up and they were kind of hard to deal with but –

DB: They had an attitude?

ES: Pretty much of an attitude, yeah.

DB: Well they’ve had a few years to get established in the civilian life – family – jobs –

ES: They had – they had a few more years of drinking and that sort of thing and – misbehaving so to speak – before they got called back in. So – but we all left as individuals. I mean left on the ship as a group of course, but we had to report into different organizations as replacements.

DB: And where did you go?

ES: Well, first we went to– we landed in Japan.

DB: Well where did you go in the States? Did you go to San Diego?

ES: For training you mean?

DB: Um-hm.

ES: No, Camp Pendleton.

DB: Oh.

ES: Camp Pendleton. And – the training wasn’t – that was conducted by guys that had gotten wounded in Korea earlier. They were pretty tough. They were pretty – demanding.

DB: And how did the World War II guys get along with the Korean instructors?

ES: Not well. They tried to tell them what to do and of course the Korean instructors were – had shrapnel in their body already and they weren’t about to be told anything. So – and for a while there they – I was really good with the bayonet sequence. You know the parries and the thrusts and the so forth. I could do that like a dance and for a while they were going to keep me there as an instructor, but that kind of fell through so. In the meantime, what happened there – I got married, is what it was.

DB: And who was the girl?

56

ES: Her name was Janet Whey.

DB: From here?

ES: From here, yeah.

DB: So you came home on leave?

ES: Came home on leave and got married.

DB: Did you need marine corps permission to get married?

ES: No – no.

DB: And this is someone you knew from high school –

ES: Yep. No, the permission came later when I wanted to get back in of course. But anyway I get married and my oldest daughter was born while I was in Korea. But to continue with the training before we left I can’t remember that as being physically demanding. Of course, I was still in pretty good physical shape anyway. And then we got the orders to board the ship and then I think we went to Long Beach to board the ship.

DB: Your wife is staying here in Arlington?

ES: She stayed in Arlington, yeah.

At Long Beach it was (laughs) there was a memorable thing when we pulled away from the dock – I don’t know if I’m getting ahead of the story here –

DB: No, no go ahead.

ES: When we pulled away from the dock – of course then they played the marine corps hymn – that made a hell of a roar from the guys in the – around the deck and around the railing and that sort of thing. And then I think that trip was 15 days. And of course, everybody got sick – they had guard duty, which just a token guard duty to keep people to do – you know – active and that sort of thing. Sea sickness was a big thing. And then go on with that tune when they neared the dock in Kolby we then – the band was playing “If I Knew You Were Coming I Would of Baked a Cake” (Both laugh).

DB: Did that get a cheer or two?

ES: Oh yeah that got a cheer too. And then we just stayed – I think they gave us a little bit of liberty just that – the rest of that day. Then the next day we picked up our bags and by roll call they loaded on a train. And the other guys went by truck somewhere else. They just kind of

57 dispersed us that time. Then we went up – this was right after the Incheon Battle and they were driven off of course –

DB: After the Chosin Reservoir retreat south

ES: After the Chosen – retreat, well they didn’t retreat they came by boat around back to Pusan. And that was where we joined them. They were just fighting their way back up at that time. So, when we got on that train and then further by truck to the unit that was needed replacements. At first, I was assigned to a machine gun squad.

DB: Do you remember your battalion regiment?

ES: I don’t. I don’t. I wasn’t there very long cause there was another infantry unit that got hit pretty hard. So, then I was transferred to – I Company Third Battalion, First Marine Regiment, First Marine Division. And that’s where I stayed. And – at first I was a squad leader – no I was fire team leader. And I had been in so long before that because I climbed every other person’s promotion because I had so much time in.

DB: So, are you a sergeant now?

ES: I quickly made sergeant yeah. And – the combat was pretty extensive. You know, we would – we would attack and take a hill and then be relieved by either another marine unit or army unit and then proceed down the valley and up another hill – that was kind of a repetition there. It was no – nothing like R&R for us. The only way you get R&R was to get wounded and go back to a hospital.

DB: How was moral?

ES: Moral was high. I mean there were –

DB: And were the WWII guys –

ES: No, never saw any of them again.

DB: Oh really? Okay – so if you’re with young guys like yourself?

ES: You bet – yeah. Oh they – you had the C-rations were alright. I gained weight. Once in a while they sent up a loaf of bread from the bakery down on the rear somewhere. That went over pretty good cause we had jelly and jam from our C-rations.

DB: Were you fighting mostly Chinese? Or North Koreans – didn’t it matter?

ES: I never did tell the difference – no. I know at one time we took a hill and there was – after we took that hill, for some reason we were isolated and we had no way of getting chow out. I can remember taking a – what they call a sack that looked like a big sock tied on both ends, full of rice. I grabbed a hold of that and I always carried that – the little cream packets and sugar

58 packets in my pack, for whatever reason. And I of course when we didn’t get any chow for a while I broke open that sack of rice and in my canteen and mixed some sugar and milk with it. Not as tasty as you – imagine but (laughs) it was something anyway.

DB: You made rice pudding.

ES: Yeah.

DB: Was the rice captured from the Chinese?

ES: Yeah.

DB: Uh-huh.

ES: I mean they all carried a little sack of that around their – around their body. I suppose that was their – their own rations that they carried around. And I can remember one instance there that – how they always played a bugle when they attacked. And I – you can imagine what the – we’re on the top of one – I’ll call it a hill. I don’t know if they were more like mountains, but we could hear from the top of the other hill that there was a bugle playing and we knew that they were coming down to the valley and not coming at us. That was the first mad– what can I say – gunnery exercise that – they used all the weapons. The first charges came out of what they called a 4.2 mortar. That would get the ones leaving the hill. Then as they got closer than the 81’s – our 81’s – took over. As they got close yet the 60’s took over. Then from there the machine guns – machine gunners took over. I don’t think the riflemen had to fire a shot. But the next morning, when we – when they retreated – well of course when they retreated the reverse came. Went to the mortars and machine guns. The next morning, we were gonna try to attack the people that attacked us. Well didn’t have to go very far cause you could hardly get through the bodies – they were just scattered all over. You could hardly step in between them. So that follow through exercise didn’t last very long. But that was the best – I can’t – best word – best I can describe it – the best scene of fire power that I say all the while I was over there. Of course, I never thought I would see anything – seen anything like that since.

ES: We didn’t go back to a rest area very often.

DB: You did, or you didn’t?

ES: Yeah, we didn’t. I can think of three times. Once they set up – a shower alongside of a stream. Laid pallets down and they had a heater for the water. You could take a shower and – what they did with our clothes is – threw them on a pile when we went into the shower and then as we got out of the shower they issued us new clothing. I suppose they always told us the story that there was – that pile of clothing they took off of us was so full of lice that they had to burn it (laughs). They tried to recover the uniforms.

DB: How long had it been since you’d have a shower before that?

ES: Oh boy – yeah. It was a long time – I couldn’t guess how long –

59

DB: Months?

ES: Oh yeah – well maybe months for – yeah I’d say so.

DB: Korea has extremes of hot and cold.

ES: Yep. I can remember trying – we went out on patrol and we dropped our packs for whatever reason. Our platoon leader told us to drop our packs, which included our entrenching tools. We weren’t very far out into the patrol and we started getting some mortar fire. (Laughs) I can remember making a futile attempt at trying to scratch a foxhole with my helmet. It was impossible because the ground was frozen. Anyway that was a little scary portion of it. Of course we retreated – I shouldn’t say retreated, we just pulled back and went out on patrol at a later time.

DB: Did you have any face-to-face contact with the Chinese or the North Koreans?

ES: No.

DB: Any prisoners? Never saw any prisoners?

ES: Oh – there’s a little bad story I guess. When we moved just before – in between positions – we moved by column and usually the company commander was in the middle of the column. And I recall one instance where we were coming down off of one hill again and through the valley, going up another hill. The only communication we had was by passing the word, you know. And the lead element up there passed the word– course you could hear several of them up and down the column, “We got a prisoner up here! We got a prisoner up here!” until it got to the company commander. And the company commander said, “Keep them for questioning. Keep them for questioning.” It didn’t quite get up here because they could hear this and you could hear “BANG! – He tried to get away! He tried to get away! He tried to get away!” So they didn’t take that prisoner is what I’m saying. So that was not a – well at that point I guess you didn’t care about anybody’s – about humanity too well.

DB: People get tough?

ES: Yeah – yeah. So –

DB: When did you come home from Korea?

ES: That would have been January of 1951.

DB: ’52?

ES: ’50 – no. Yeah ’52 I’m sorry – yeah. ’52. And I flew off of that hill that I was on with an evacuation helicopter.

60

DB: Had you been wounded?

ES: No. It was just that they – that they were there, and they were going back. I guess I don’t know why it went back empty, but I was thankful I could get ride back with a helicopter – back to some place safe anyway. To me the going home – the getting home is kind of a – I don’t remember how I – all the details of how we went to – by boat again to Japan. Then my – loaded on up in Japan – on ship, with a ship load of people in my category that just spent their time over there. That was, again, a lot of sea sickness. Then there was one guy that came around with a – an album of pictures that he had taken of the – entire country, so to speak. I don’t know where he got a hold of it. Maybe he was back in the rear some place and they had an opportunity to do all of this. But he said – I think it was “For five bucks I’ll send you these pictures.” “So, okay. Yeah.” Of course I never saw him again or the five bucks and I think the rest of the ship all did the same thing. Some money makers there.

DB: How – how were you – readjusting after you had been in this combat? And the other guys on the ship?

ES: Oh – I don’t recall that there was any readjusting. There was just – everybody was so happy that we were on the way home again – and safe. That there was probably no adjustment needed. Outside of keeping your stomach settled through sea sickness again.

ES: Our discharges were held in – coming back it was held in San Diego. I don’t know how – I can’t remember how we get back down to San Diego cause there’s no – no – no ships who’d dock down there. Probably up at Long Beach and we probably traveled by bus or truck down to San Diego. And that’s where the discharges occurred.

DB: And then you’re home. Back to Arlington.

ES: Yes.

DB: And your wife.

ES: Yes.

DB: And a new baby.

ES: Yes.

DB: And – and was that – was that a difficult transition to come home to this new situation?

ES: Oh – yeah, yeah.

DB: Now you got to be a breadwinner too?

ES: Because I’ve never – I never worked a day in my – really a day in my life to earn money for a family and for myself. So, I had a – a little difficult time scratching for that. Well, let’s see

61 what happened then? Oh in the meantime – let’s see – had that one child and it didn’t take long for another. And I thought, Well maybe for a second job rather than – everybody else was going to college during those five years – and had fine jobs. I didn’t have anything like that, so I thought maybe I better go back into the marine corps. So I tried to get back into marine reserve. And then during those years they paid for dependents – an allotment for each dependent.

DB: This would have been a drilling unit, no?

ES: Pardon me?

DB: This would have been a drilling unit?

ES: Uh – yeah. Trying to get back into a drilling unit.

DB: At Fort Snelling?

ES: Yes. And – and they said – I was a Buck Sergeant and– so the request came back. I had too many dependents for the rank that I held. So, that kind of shot that idea. In the meantime I talked to a friend of mine here in Arlington – who was in the reserve unit over in Winthrop. He was a First Sergeant as a matter of fact.

DB: Army reserve?

ES: Army reserve. And he said, “Why don’t you come over and see us?” And boy that was opening – like opening a floodgate. I – they welcomed me with open arms. The headquarters interviewed me and found about my combat experience. So, they gave me some recommendations of what kind of schooling to do and while I enlisted you know of course. I enlisted shortly after the unit was formed – the unit was formed in December 7th of 1954 and I joined them in 19 – January of ’55.

DB: And what was the unit?

ES: It was Company L, 411th infantry – Third Battalion, 411th infantry and 103rd Division. So I enlisted – the company commander was a school teacher in Winthrop. And out of the thirteen men, I guess, about fifty percent of them were Korean veterans and the others were just high school kids.

ES: So, like I say they quickly interviewed me and – and told me that there was a chance of a commission. So, I enrolled at some courses at Fort Benning, Georgia – and Fort Lee, Virginia – various courses. But the biggest deciding factor was my sixth months as an NCO in a combat situation and that was more the deciding factor than all the – or a big part of the deciding factor – along with the schooling.

DB: So did you get – you applied for and got a direct commission?

62

ES: That’s right I got a direct commission, yeah. I don’t recall what date that was – it was probably 1956 if I remember right. And – do you want to take a break?

DB: Yep.

Pause in recording

ES: And of course, in the meantime I – I had – my family kept on growing and growing all the time so. I had twins and by the time I left they were – well further down the line when I left for Vietnam. I had seven children.

DB: What were you doing for civilian work?

ES: It was all construction. Construction work I did – did real well, yeah.

DB: Ready to go? (pause) Had you – had you thought about using the G.I. Bill and going to school at all?

ES: I did. And– I use it up in the — with a firm that I started working for. And it worked alright. They came out to visit to see what I was doing and if I was advancing in the construction field. They gave me the money to do it with. I used up the G.I. Bill and that.

DB: As on the job training with the construction company?

ES: On the job – on the job training, yep.

DB: Okay.

ES: (clears throat) And all the while I was still in Winthrop and promoted to First Lieutenant –

DB: Do you remember what you were getting paid for a weekend drill in those days?

ES: I don’t – but I know the drills were every Monday night. Forty-eight drills a year – plus the fifteen days of active duty. I don’t recall what the money was at that time – but at any rate any officer that was commissioned out of the ranks got what they called an E-rating. Say if you were a “01” you were called a “01-E” or a “02” “02-E”. And you got extra money for – you’re enlisted – being enlisted – being commissioned. So – anyway, I was promoted First Lieutenant in the 411th infantry and shortly after that we were changed to Company C, Third Battalion, Third Infantry. No, wait a minute that can’t be right. Anyway – Company C, it was a reserve component of the Guards of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

DB: Third of the Third, yeah?

ES: Third of the Third. And we even practiced marching with the – with the fixed bayonets which is kind of a different way of doing things.

63

DB: Were you expected to be a support unit for the Third Infantry unit in Washington? Did you have to do a lot of drill and ceremonies?

ES: We did not. But we did practice – we tried to get a – we did have a colonial color guard. Four men is all. And we all had to try out for that – all of the outlying units. Had to submit a group of four to see if we would fit them up with the colonial uniforms. And one of them did win it, but we didn’t keep that organization very long. I’m sure there was pretty – highly prestigious and it was other people after that same organization for their state or area whatever happened. So, I don’t know – I don’t know why they didn’t keep it very long.

DB: Did people take their reserve duty pretty seriously?

ES: Oh yeah.

DB: Was training intense?

ES: Yep – yep. And–

DB: Good NCO’s?

ES: No. We couldn’t develop good NCO’s. The only reason they even became an NCO is that – it was a time factor –

DB: Longevity.

ES: Time to be promoted and – longevity yeah. So we never had very good NCO’s. We had good civilian AST’s.

DB: The technicians – the full timers?

ES: Sure.

DB: Kept the records straight?

ES: Yeah.

DB: Where did you go for summer camp?

ES: McCoy – Camp McCoy.

DB: Okay – always McCoy?

ES: Always McCoy. The – I got to recite the next change we had in the reserve. We went to a 209th quartermaster. That was a part of the – oh boy is that – they aren’t assigned to any close

64 division or anything like that. They’re – be assigned to an army or to a corps. So that one was assigned to – as part of the 14th US Army Corps.

DB: And – and you’re an infantry unit. What was the attitude when all of the sudden they make you a quartermaster?

ES: That was a real change.

DB: Was it a moral breaker?

ES: Not really – not really. I don’t think the people cared at that time to exchange their rifles for a typewriter – it didn’t make any difference.

DB: They were getting their drill pay.

ES: They were getting their drill pay, yeah. It was – And they added a feature about – for myself is that we didn’t have a captain in charge. And my time was up for me to make captain. And if I took it I’d have to find another unit – and I didn’t want to do that. I wanted to stay right in Winthrop. So I turned my captaincy down. To jump into the future a little bit – I turned it down for three years in a row. And then finally I couldn’t turn it down anymore – I had to take it because then we were activated for Vietnam. So anyway, after –

DB: When did you get the designation of the 452nd?

ES: Well that came after the 209th – that – the year – in 1965. We were designated the 452nd.

DB: And things are going on in Southeast Asia?

ES: Oh yeah.

DB: And prior to that there had been the Berlin Crisis – and there had been the Cuban Missile Crisis –

ES: Cuban Missile yeah –

DB: Were you guys activated for any of those things?

ES: No. No, no.

DB: Was there a threat of being activate for those things?

ES: Well we all suspected it, but it would never –

DB: It never happened –

ES: Never – never happened.

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DB: Okay. So, you’re looking at Vietnam and what’s the talk in the unit about the possibility of being activated? You know there’s an increase in troops going over there –

ES: Yeah they never – it never – I don’t think it ever occurred to anybody to be quite honest with you. They just said – they were just in there because – to uh avoid the draft most of them – a lot of them were. And so they never even considered that we would be activated. I do have the original telegraph to me telling us we were activated. I read it off at formation and (laugh) I always suspect that they all looked at each other and said, “We’re gonna die.” (Both laugh). So, but I guess that never happened. There were a few of them that wanted to – that succeeded in bailing out because they were farmers and that sort of thing but –

DB: Did you – did you have a warning that you were going to be activated? Or was it just a telegram just showed up and that was it?

ES: No – a matter of fact I was – I was helping a contractor friend of mine and on the job site there was – they had a radio of course, like they all do. And here they announced that the Winthrop unit was being activated. So –

DB: Just over the commercial radio station?

ES: Over the radio yeah. They never notified me –

DB: That was your first notice?

ES: That was my first notice.

DB: And you’re the company commander at the time?

ES: Yes – yes. So what happened is that I immediately quit the activity I was doing and went over to the reserve center. Then the AST had gotten this telegram, which was nine feet long. Of course I whittled it down to where I – I got it in a packet here. It said, you know, give you the details that we were gonna be activated. That was on the twelfth of April. That we were gonna be activate on the thirteenth of May.

DB: And – what kind of preparations could you do now?

ES: Well – there was a kind of hazy there. I’m not sure that anybody knew what was necessary to go to Vietnam – what kind of vehicles and that sort of thing.

DB: Were they gonna put you on extended active duty prior to your departure?

ES: I did. I went immediately on active duty.

DB: Just you? Or a few other personnel?

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ES: There were some other NCO’s went on. And I immediately went out and got rid of my business.

DB: You had your own construction business at this point?

ES: Yeah, by that point.

DB: You got rid of it – what did you do with it?

ES: Well I had some contracts out, but I had to talk to some counterparts and ask them if they would take the project for what I bid at. I didn’t have that many.

DB: You passed it over to your competition?

ES: Yeah (laughs). It was kind of hard to do, but I was more concerned how I was gonna react to all this.

DB: Now you’ve got a wife and a number of kids – you’re not a seventeen-year-old any more.

ES: No. I also thought I was a roughly twenty years older than the men in the unit – so they kind of looked at me as a father figure than anything else. But anyway –

DB: So what was your process of getting ready?

ES: Well, beginning – matter of fact, we had very little equipment. We did not have a full table of organization and equipment. So, the army decided to pull in everything they had in a five state area and direct it to us to fill our unit to a full TO&E.

DB: As far as trucks and jeeps.

ES: Trucks and so forth. So, they brought them all in and of course they weren’t in the best of shape, so we had a motor pool that had to really scamper and a supply organization that had to bring everything up to some sort of a standard.

DB: But you only had a month?

ES: Yep.

DB: Did you get a lot of support from the headquarters?

ES: Limited. Limited –

DB: Were you under the 88th Army Reserve Command at this point?

ES: No. No –

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DB: Still the 14th Corps?

ES: I would say 5th Army – I guess. I don’t – all the help came out of Fort Snelling of course. I don’t know what they called themselves there at that time.

DB: Army Readiness Group?

ES: Probably Army Readiness Group, I would guess. Yes – yeah. But anyway they – so here we are trying to get these vehicles up to some sort of a standard, so we could convoy. We convoyed down to Worthington – and from there to Fort Riley, Kansas. They immediately said, “What are you doing with all this stuff? It’s not deployable.” So, we had to turn all gas burning vehicles in – all the generators, anything that wasn’t deployable and draw new equipment. So that was – we were down in Fort Riley for five months, which irritated a lot of – a lot of soldiers. They could of trained an army of draftees in that time – and I’m sure they could. But – I guess I have to backtrack a little bit. I never – we never did cover our – our resistance to go, to begin with. When we got called up.

DB: Okay.

ES: I think we had uh about sixty men sign a petition saying that this wasn’t a war and it was illegal to call us up. It was written by a gentleman that was a writer for the Worthington Newspaper. It was very well written. If you would have shown it to me I probably would have signed it as well. So they had – when we were down at Fort Riley we had – they had many meetings off post. I – tons of calls from reporters and from Congressmen and it really made my life miserable. But –

DB: How many – how many men were in the unit at this time? All together?

ES: Well, we left here with – with 175 and our authorized strength was 215, so they filled up the unit from stand-by reservists from – stand-by reservists from Michigan and various other states. We – we had 250 – we were strong. We were right up to strength. But they – those fillers didn’t have any – a lot in the unit didn’t have anything to do with the signing of this resistance so to speak. And they had hired an attorney and I think that had some sort of a delaying action for us to head over to Vietnam – you know within that five-month period. I can’t say for sure, but I have a hunch the army was worried that they’d win the lawsuit and then so – but at any rate all of a sudden they said, “Let’s go” and –

DB: Did you have – was it causing discipline problems or morale problems?

ES: More morale than anything else.

DB: Was it – were the sixty affecting the rest of the unit?

ES: I don’t think so. They kind of shied away from each other.

DB: What did you personally have to do to deal with this situation?

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ES: Stave off the newspaper reporters – that was a real big job. And then of course answer to various people in the – well as an example I had a IG full blown colonel come out and visit me. If anybody looked like Jesus Christ himself that was him. But I was pretty stern too – I could look anybody in the eye and I was tan and muscular and this sort of thing. I says — I told him – I say, “I had nothing to do with this” – I’m sure what the idea was I was a bad commander and they wanted to know why all these guys were resisting. And it was my fault. Well, I looked him in the eye and says, “I’m a blind patriot. I have nothing to do with this and I’ll tell you who is.” And I told him the story about the guy that wrote it. He even wrote me a little letter of commendation believe it or not.

DB: The IG did?

ES: Yep. But it was not only that, you know. We had Congressmen – some of these farm boys would write to their Congressmen, oh “I’m a farmer – I can’t be going. I got too much – lose too much money.” So then at half the year we are required by law to report – write back to the Congressmen, which kept me pretty busy. And then answering letters – “Would you please let so-and-so on leave because he’s – his girlfriend is pregnant, and he has to get married – should get married you know from a minister. Would you please let him go?” Well – it was easy enough anyways down there – down there for five months. So, it was things like that that kept me – kept me busy. At any rate–

DB: But the sixty who were resisting in particular continued to train and do their jobs?

ES: Oh yeah. Because that was – they wanted to have a meeting right on post and I says – of course the post wouldn’t let happen. So, they met out – I don’t know where because I stayed away from that. One of the newspapers reporter called me and he says, “I was in the army and what’s going on with your – where are the men right now? What are they doing?” and I says, “I don’t know.” He says, “You don’t know?” He says, “It seems to me when I was in the army, the company commander knew everything!” And he really irritated me so I had to bark back at him a little bit – with some choice words. Anyway – so they’d – that part of it was not a good scene. But then when we got to Vietnam, everybody went to work and swallowed a little bit.

DB: Let’s go through the process of getting there first. You’re a unit and you’ve got equipment.

ES: Yes.

DB: So, essentially new equipment I guess?

ES: Yes.

DB: And – and you’re taking it with you to Vietnam?

ES: Yes.

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DB: Okay. So you’re in Fort Riley, Kansas – how did you deploy to Vietnam?

ES: Okay – the post took charge of that sort of thing. They arranged the flatbed train cars to load the forklifts and the trucks and semis and refrigerated vans and so forth on a freight train. The amazing thing about that is that we did have truck drivers for the 10 semi-tractors that we had. But they were just farm boys that knew how to run a tractor. But to load this train we had to back on the lead flatbed all the back ten carloads – cars – and then get locked down on the final car. And there was only one man in the outfit that knew how to do that. It was our First Sergeant who was a professional truck driver and he had back every vehicle on there. Of course the men in the unit had to help this land – people dog them down with chains and come along to dog it all down on the flat beds. And then the final day after loading – or after they moved the train out – we had to send five guards along so that nobody would be stealing tires or whatever –

DB: On the train?

ES: On the train. So they were in a caboose of the train. And then before the caboose pulled out — I was down seeing them off of course at the train tracks – the five men were loading into the caboose and one of them had a six-pack and – well of course he had more than one six-pack – but anyway, this was just a demonstration. The leader of the group had a six-pack and I was trying to take it away. I have that on film someplace but it disappeared. So they – the equipment took off down to a port in the Gulf of Mexico in Texas where they loaded it all aboard ship. They didn’t go through the Panama Canal – and that sort of delayed – we got there before the equipment did.

DB: Did it go back around Africa and that way?

ES: That’s right – they went down around the Horn and then came back up. And then they stopped in the Philippines for quite a while. And then finally over to Vietnam for unloading. We had a little – a little twenty-ton crane, and jeeps, and trucks, and so forth. We were without much of that for the first – well six, eight weeks before – when we were over there.

DB: So how did the troops get to Vietnam?

ES: Civilian aircraft. Yeah. They landed at all the airport in Da Nang. Then dispatched by trucks that we borrowed up to – because we had an advanced party that had left uh oh about a month earlier. They were out there building the – the floor – the wooden floors for the GP (general purpose tents) – the GP smalls. There were some GP mediums and then – getting ready for the – draw some beds and so forth – bunks and mattresses and so forth. So that was already to go for the guys when they got there.

DB: The tents weren’t with the vehicles? You had the tents in Vietnam?

ES: No. The tents were in Vietnam, but they weren’t –

DB: So, you didn’t have to wait for those?

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ES: No – no.

DB: So, you showed up in Da Nang – you had your advanced party there, but you didn’t have most of your equipment. Did you have a clearly defined mission? And were you able to carry it out with the borrowed equipment?

ES: Oh yes. Because we didn’t – we didn’t have to drive too far or haul too much or anything like that. We – it was mostly data processing and storage. The storage people had to reconstitute – shortly before we got there. It was during the monsoon season and the piles of supplies had tipped over and broken open. Got ruined and so that was – that was a big part of their mission to repackage that with whatever was salvageable. And what wasn’t salvageable they’d box it up and send it back to Guam for further processing. There was a lot of people that worked in data control. And then course guard duty you had, but it was all within our walking distance there and that post.

DB: Were you getting the logistical support you needed from the units in Da Nang?

ES: Oh yeah – yeah.

DB: Good support.

ES: Good support.

DB: And the people who had the data processing jobs they were – they were trained? They were qualified? They’ve learned what they had to do?

ES: Oh yeah. Our boys didn’t have much of a chance to do that except for some training that Defense Construction Supply Center where our training was headed after we became the 209th and 452nd. We trained at Defense Construction Supply Center.

DB: Okay. So, you were doing what you’d been prepared to do.

ES: Yes.

DB: And once your unit got to Vietnam I think you indicated that the protest by the sixty had somewhat run its course? And people accepted their job and were doing their work?

ES: Um-hm. Yes, they did. Like I said it just seemed like once they found out they were there forever – well not forever, but for the duration that – they accepted it and well I can’t say every individual did. There’s probably some that I never heard about and so. We had one of the – the bulk of the company was in Da Nang and then we had a Class One Platoon up in Phu Bai.

DB: The Class One was –

ES: Was food stuff. That’s where our refrigerated vans were supposed to go that we had, but there was already big refrigerated warehouses set up. The food came in by barge loads from

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Australia. So, they sometimes had to act as longshoremen up there – those few people that were up there – One Platoon. The bulk (telephone rings)

The bulk of the foodstuff was steaks, of all things. Cases and cases of frozen steaks. So from Phu Bai we used to send a truck up once a month to our platoon that unloaded all these steaks. They would load up enough for our cookouts down in – down in Da Nang, which is kind of an added benefit that we got out of that. They lived very well up there with all the fresh vegetables and so forth. It was – that part of the compound they were in had been stripped of trees by Agent Orange. So, a few of those fellas that were up there did – did pass away from Agent Orange.

DB: Subsequently.

ES: Subsequently, yeah. And– what else was our job? I can’t – I’m trying to think of what we did in Da Nang. We had an excellent motor pool. We did have a roadside spot inspection by the CMMI command maintenance. And they would stop the vehicles and if the driver let his vehicle go too badly he would get gigged for it. The company commander would have to answer for it. So our boys were pretty uptight about that and especially that motor sergeant. He was a short little guy, but he was just tough as nails. And he’d get them pretty well organized to where they kept their trucks up. So I did offer, I said – we had to work seven days a week there and the truck drivers had it too – and I says, “If you truck drivers pass a CMMI with a hundred percent when you get stopped you get a day off.” Well, that kind of opened the floodgate too because they would drive around to see if they could find one of these command maintenance spot checks and drive up to it – knowing full well that they were hundred percent qualified for everything.

So, one of the gentlemen came up to me one day and he said, “I stopped at so many of these CMMI places – I got so many days off” he says, “Do you think I can go home early?” (laughs). So and we did – we did get some rocket fire in our compound. Very little. I mean we had the sirens go off and they would – there was no injuries from that. The injuries we did have is that our storage areas were right next to a river. And the Marines were posted on a bridge across this river and they would shoot at any floating branch or leaves or whatever – thinking there was a sapper underneath it with a straw, breathing through it, going in to do some damage with some demolition. So, they were shooting constantly at these things coming down the river. And one of our boys up in the storage yard noticed a little blood dripping from his fingers and looked at his arm and he got – there was a bullet embedded in there. It was a ricochet off the water I suppose.

DB: Spent round – still caused some damage.

ES: Yeah.

DB: So they gotta – did he get a purple heart for that?

ES: Not at that time. But later on – several years after that day they made a determination that friendly fire also qualified for a purple heart. Matter of fact at our reunion here uh last week he asked me to feel his – and the round was still in his arm. I says, “Was that .30 caliber?” “No” he says, “From an M16” (laughs) so. That was the only serious injury we got.

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DB: Okay, you went over with a unit that was primarily hometown boys? Minnesota guys from this area?

ES: Yeah – I was kind of proud of that because they were all hard working farm boy – well not all of them – but farm boys. They all had a good work ethic so yeah. Our unit went – won many awards over there. More than they were – more than they should have actually. But –

DB: And the Michigan guys that came in as fillers they were – they integrated well into the unit? And did well?

ES: A few of them kicked up a little bit of a fuss, but they adjusted well. Cause our boys were all a friendly group. There was nobody that was aggressive or anything like that.

DB: Generally, Minnesota units do have excellent reputations.

ES: Yeah it seems like –

DB: Sometimes with the rear area troops, the problems would develop with drugs or discipline. You didn’t have any of that? How did that –

ES: Not – no. Not when we went over there. Well maybe later on a few of the boys tried some of the drugs that the active army had. We were stationed with I think four – four other companies that were mostly colored. They had problems – I know the company commanders that I bunked with they all had problems with drugs. I don’t – I couldn’t specifically say that our boys got into that habit but I’m sure “Nah this is something new, we got to try it.”

DB: But it didn’t become a significant problem for you in the unit?

ES: No – no. No we – I think we had high morale. We were there for – over Christmas and to spark a little morale I offered a (telephone rings)

Break in Recording

DB: To spark a little morale you offered –

ES: Yeah, I offered a day off for – no I didn’t either – a prize. I can’t recall what the prize was – for the best decorated hooch. You know we called them hooches there. So I traveled around, taking a look at all the hooches. I went up to Phu Bai and one of the hooches over there came with a fireplace and stockings hung and that sort of thing – in his hooch. So he won whatever reward I gave to him. So morale was always pretty up there.

DB: Did you have much contact with the Vietnamese?

ES: Just as workers. We had a lot of civilian workers in the compound. Some of our boys were on gate duty of course they had to let them in and of course let them out. Some of the storage parts – you know just as an example – batteries. Civilian workers would store them and

73 log them in. I mean there was many items besides batteries, but that – thousands of them so there was civilian workers doing all that.

DB: Were you responsible for hiring them? And paying them?

ES: No.

DB: They were just assigned to you?

ES: They were just assigned to us, yep. And anyway they had a little bit of a school in our area and they were trying to teach them English in our recoup section, which would fix up these boxes that were damaged by tipping over and so forth in the storage yard. They were trying to teach them – the men – English so that they could run the saws and the hammers and that sort of equipment for reconstituting the storage boxes. That was about all the dealings we had with the Vietnamese. I’ll show you pictures later on. There was a tailor in the midst of our compound – in our battalion area – that would sew on the patches and the sergeants’ stripes and all this other paraphernalia. He liked me quite well because I was a company commander right close to him, I suppose. But he had two little daughters that he would bring around to the – to the shop and I got a picture of the tailor –myself and those two little girls. I’ll show you later, but yeah. Their all grandparents by now too I’m sure.

DB: And speaking of children, you had a – quite a group at home. And what was the situation for your wife and your family back here?

ES: That was kind of tough. Captains pay was not very much to support a family like that. When I came home I had to get going immediately back to the construction field – that was a very tough situation.

DB: Well, what were you hearing from your wife?

ES: Pardon me?

DB: What were you hearing from your wife over here – back here while you were over there?

ES: Oh nothing in particular – family good – kids going to school and doing well. Trying to make the house payment and things – it was all some good news, some bad news. But finally, at the end of the – I don’t know if we’re getting close to the end of our –

DB: Well let’s do – your wife was a strong person and she was able to manage things?

ES: Yeah.

DB: Did you get an R&R when you were in Vietnam?

ES: Yeah.

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DB: What did you do?

ES: We flew to Hawaii for a week and that was pretty neat.

DB: Did your wife meet you there?

ES: Yeah – yeah. We stayed at the army – can’t remember, it escapes me –

DB: Hale Koa.

ES: Hale Koa, yeah. And that was pretty neat. So – so that was a good trip. And then they –

DB: Did your unit stay together the whole time? They didn’t pull people out – get replacements in? Pretty much you stayed together?

ES: Oh no. Shortly before – well they knew we were going to be going home – the army did. So, they were gonna try to replace us man by man – and make a new company out of it.

DB: Do a transition rather than a hard break?

ES: Yeah. So, what happened was that I had to decide what men would leave our unit and be transferred to another. That was a hard decision because – oh gosh because “I could really use the man you’re transferring. Can’t you find somebody else?”

DB: Is this your team?

ES: Yeah. So I gave in. And then eventually I guess the army changed its mind because it wasn’t working out that well. They brought in a company from Southern Vietnam – that was – it was the same thing.

DB: Another reserve unit?

ES: No – no. It was –

DB: Active –

ES: Active General Supply Company. That was – luckily for a number of us we got out of there very shortly after they brought those people in. But they brought an entire company. Later on we found out after we got back home that they didn’t fill out their log books on their vehicles for three months after we left. They were just in an army. They all had separate living quarters out in the Vietnamese city. Living with their girlfriends – and it was just a big party for them, so they didn’t have any idea how to run a company like we did.

DB: Not a very disciplined unit?

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ES: No. So that was kind of a laughing matter as far as our boys were concerned because they heard about it. Okay –

DB: So, what was the process of coming home? You came home as a unit – pretty much?

ES: Pretty much, yeah. We – They flew us into Fort Riley, Kansas again and gave us all new uniforms, new haircuts. Brought our 201 files up to date. Gave us a few speeches telling us how – how well we did. Of course, they were all anxious to get home.

DB: Did the men in the unit – and you – have a good sense that you had done very well? Was there pride and esprit de corps in the unit?

ES: Well, we did, but we, the general feelings was we didn’t work any harder than we would have at home. So, what’s the big deal? So to speak. But yeah, we’ll take the kudos and the rewards and so forth.

DB: Had many of the men had hardships and difficulties having been federalized while they were in Vietnam? And did you have a lot of issues to deal with relating to families? And personal issues? And financial issues?

ES: Well, including myself, I think there was a large portion of divorces amongst the married men. There was, you know, quite a few single men of course. But amongst the married men there was a large portion of divorces that occurred – or did occur shortly after.

DB: After you got back – not issues that you had to deal with in Vietnam, but when you got home?

ES: Yeah. The absence had quite a – quite a factor in all that. Like I say including myself. So – so anyway, when we left Fort Riley to come back some of came back by commercial aircraft. A lot of them drove back.

DB: Someone came down to get them?

ES: Pardon me?

DB: Did someone go there – go there to get them?

ES: Yeah – yeah. Couple of the wives met them at the – when our plane landed from overseas. And anyway –

DB: But all the vehicles that you took to Vietnam stayed there?

ES: They stayed there yeah.

DB: So now you’re coming home and how did the community react when you came back?

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ES: Oh, that was – that was great.

DB: This would have been in, what 1969 now? You went over the twenty-ninth of September ’68.

ES: Yeah, should be 1969 – yeah.

DB: October – August first I think it was.

ES: Yeah. The – Well we had a big welcome home of course at the airport for those that came in by aircraft. But then we had an assembly at Worthington and at Winthrop. Our commanding general came out and gave us all the meritorious ribbons and so forth. Worthington did the same.

DB: And how was it for you coming home? You’d been a company commander. You’d been on a fairly intense situation. You had all these guys.

ES: Yep. Well, one thing that bothered me a lot is that when we were in Fort Riley, Kansas there was a gentleman that came around – we’re seated in his bleachers – and this civilian came around and asked if anybody wanted to reenlist. You know, which was the worst possible way you could ask. In fact I think if a guy raised his hand why his buddy would give him the elbow and say, “What are you doing?” So anyway, that sort of – well that did fail. But then when we got back after having our reception in Winthrop anyway I just told the men “You know, you’re all done.” You know and they said, “Either call back into the reserves center or come back in and we’ll give you your final instructions.” Well that raised a hell of an uproar because the Army Reserve had sent down all kinds of Majors and Lieutenants Colonels to interview each guy – to see if he wanted to reenlist. And that really burned me up. You mean these guys want to go – you’re not gonna sit them down for an hour and talk to each one of them while the other guys are waiting to go home. For hours. So, I just told them, “Call back and or show back up to the Reserve Center.” And I caught tremendous amount of heat for that because they had all those folks ready to give them a reenlistment speech. And I thought – I says, “I know which men are going to reenlist – because I talked to them myself. And to tie everybody up while you interview them.” And of course I suppose the army thought that if I knew anything they would have asked me (laughs). So anyway, I caught a little heat about that. I don’t know if it ever showed up on my final efficiency report or not but – I didn’t really care.

DB: So what was the effect of this year in Vietnam on your unit’s strength?

ES: Actually, we had two AST’s out of it and ten reenlistments. So, we did – I think we did quite well. That’s a pretty big percentage, I’d say.

DB: Buy you had – you had about 150 guys. You only had about ten reenlist?

ES: Yeah. That’s high – that’s still a high percentage of guys that were called up not involuntarily but –

DB: So the rest of them all got out?

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ES: Yeah.

DB: That was pretty devastating to the reserve unit though. Now you’ve got to start recruiting again.

ES: Exactly.

DB: Rebuilding the unit.

ES: Exactly – which was a good thing, you know. Matter of fact, one of our lieutenants who made captain while he was over in Vietnam became the new company commander. Of course, there was totally new training than the old type of training that we had. So that was a – it was a good thing too. Consequently, after this new unit – or fresh unit – was formed they had almost – not 100 percent – but retention was great. They’d just stay in the unit.

DB: It retained the same designation?

ES: Yes.

DB: the 452nd.

ES: Later, I think it was – what year was it? They – they tried to move the unit up to Arden Hills, the Worthington and Winthrop. And of course, I was involved in that and so were other members of the unit –

DB: This was probably in the seventies or eighties though, wasn’t it?

ES: I think ’74. And anyway, he– we wrote letters to the Assistant Secretary of Defense and finally got the unit stopped. And one of the reasons that I think they considered it because in our letter to the Defense Secretary was that we had second and third term reenlistments. So that if they moved that unit up to Arden Hills, they would simply drop out. And at a cost to the government because they would have to retrain new people up there. But with all these second and third term reenlistments it was a very well-trained unit after it came back from Vietnam. So we did save the unit and of course eventually it left in – they did do away with it in 1960 –

DB: Nineteen – not sixty.

ES: Not sixty – oh now it escapes me. I’ll get that to you. Two-thousand and six, I’m sorry.

DB: Did – did. After you came back from Vietnam — and most of the people got out of the military – did any of those people come back in later on?

ES: Uh – there’s two of them I know that did.

DB: Just a couple?

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ES: Just a couple, yeah. I myself stayed on active duty for uh a period of time after we came back.

DB: Sorting out the paperwork?

ES: No.

DB: Cleaning things up?

ES: No.

DB: What did you do?

ES: They assigned me to Fort Snelling of course with – as an advisor to uh three units. The three a Second Maintenance Battalion – I think it was 775th Aerial Resupply and the 452nd. I was an advisor for oh the rest of my extended active duty.

DB: And how long did that last?

ES: I think eighteen months – something like that.

DB: And you were good with that? That was okay with you?

ES: Yeah – yeah it gave me time to see if I – what I was going to do. I don’t think I was going to go back in the business again and see if I could find a suitable job of some sort. I need a little time to shake it out. And of course, all these drills were on weekends for the – to be an advisor. So, during the week it was very – that part of it was very boring. So –

DB: So it wasn’t – it wasn’t great money, but it was something and offered you a transition?

ES: Yeah – yeah. I was stationed down in St. Paul downtown near the airport for most of that. Then that 302nd Maintenance Battalion was also stationed down there so eventually I transferred out of active duty into the 302nd Maintenance Battalion.

DB: So you must be coming up pretty close to your twenty years or you’re over twenty years of service?

ES: Yes. The balance of this was – I didn’t stay with the – I transferred down to Fort Des Moines for my final years.

DB: Fort Dodge?

ES: Uh, no. No.

DB: Fort Dodge is in Des Moines.

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ES: You’re probably right. I guess I don’t – I just didn’t recall.

DB: Okay.

ES: So I spent a little time down there. And of course, I was so close to retirement and there was absolutely really nothing to do down there. I fell out in the morning – on Saturday morning – with thirty other majors. If you can imagine that. And can you imagine the drain on our economy with thirty majors drawing weekend drills. And out of those thirty, I was one of about five that was actively seeking something to do. And I worked on a – on a team that was put together by – can’t remember what his commanding general was at that time. But he wanted to get the actual hands on training on the machines that these guys were a mechanic, but all the work was done by civilian AST’s. Or crane operators – operating a crane. The units that we visited – the guys never got their hands on the actual jobs that they were supposed to do because you couldn’t get it out of the hands of the civilians. So, that was our job – the five of us.

DB: To – to restructure that training so the troops got it.

ES: To – get the hands-on training they called it at that time – HOT – Hands-On Training. And as I found it was – it was useless. Because I went around to the various higher – higher ranking civilians AST’s and told them our project. It wasn’t a flat out no, but they out-ranked me because they were probably a colonel or lieutenant colonel in reserve status. They told me, “It’s not gonna happen.” So at that time I said, “That was enough.” So, I quit. (laughs) I didn’t quit – I just dropped out.

DB: And how many years did you have in?

ES: Uh, twenty-seven.

DB: Twenty-seven? And you retired as a Major?

ES: Yeah.

DB: And then what are you gonna do? Had you been able to re-establish yourself in the civilian world somewhere?

ES: I went back to one of the old firms at a – that I worked for many years –

DB: In the construction field?

ES: Yes, but it was— it was in the stainless-steel equipment business. I didn’t know how to weld or anything, but I guess I knew how to lead men – so that’s where I fit into it. Then eventually I got – I got into a consulting status and did quite well for a couple years that way. Then – of course I was advancing in age all this while too. Eventually I – I just retired.

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DB: And how was your post-Vietnam reintegration back into your family? You had how many kids?

ES: Well, I had seven and then I married a gal with three – so we had a total of ten.

DB: Were you divorced or –

ES: Yes. I – My wife divorced me –

DB: As a result of Vietnam?

ES: Uh, I like to think so. I like to think so. That was several years after. My youngest daughter was born when I was in Vietnam and I think she was two years old when I – when the divorce finally came. And – then a few years later I met my current wife, whose husband had just gotten killed in a car accident. We matched up pretty well, so. So that story turned out very well.

DB: Um-hm.

ES: Two of my – two of my seven passed away. They were twins. One got killed – the girl got killed in a car accident and the boy had a successful business in show business with stage management and he just – died. Had some sort of heart condition, I guess they found out. So there out of the ten there’s still, you know, eight left alive.

DB: The military’s been a significant part of your life.

ES: Yes, it has.

DB: For better or worse? How do you – where do you look back on it? How do you regard it?

ES: Oh no, I – it’s pretty hard to say you enjoyed your military career, but I did. I always thought any of the road blocks – it isn’t the problems they threw at you, it’s how you reacted to them. I guess that’s probably my theory, so. And I always thought I reacted pretty well. Shoot I’ve been commander of our local VFW here for the last twenty years (laughs). Which is –

DB: And do you just work on a memorial – a veteran’s memorial in town.

ES: Oh yeah – yes, yes.

DB: What kind of – was that a significant project? Is that what I drove by when I came in to town?

ES: Yeah, yes it was. It was a – that project was started oh some – in 1976 when they mounted a pedestal with three flags on it. And then through the years – oh up until about 1996 we discovered it was deteriorating. So, the mayor of Arlington – who had been mayor for twenty-four years – we decided to form a group and do something about it, so we started a paver sale selling these sixteen inch by eight inch pavers with the man’s name and branch of service

81 and the war that he fought in. We talked to the city if we you do this sort of thing. Yep, but we need to borrow some money. Well, they borrowed us five thousand dollars that came out of a fund that was donated by a retired army major – park fund. We promised to repay it, which we did in three years.

We noted the – every branch of the service. We’ve got a paver out there for – that was donated to us for the pilot of flight seventy-seven, the one flew into the – crashed into the Pentagon. And we’ve got a ship’s bell that would course ring the time and whatever the ship’s bell did from the USS Sibley, which is named for Sibley County because of the extent of the money that was raised with bond sales during World War II. We have a monument out there for that. And we have a helicopter – Cobra – that was issued in 1968 – same year we went to Vietnam. It served in Vietnam and got shot down in 1968. It was returned to the – returned to the US – to Texas, an aircraft facility in Texas to rebuild and sent back in 1969. Reissued shortly after that to serve in Desert Storm. And then finally Germany and it wound up in the national guard system over in Wisconsin, which we picked up.

There’s an interesting story behind that. We – I myself was involved in Winthrop, Minnesota getting a tank as excess out of Fort McCoy. They loaded that on a tank retriever and was gonna bring it to Winthrop. On the way home, they stopped off at a national guard organization. This tank that they were gonna put on as a pedestal, was in better shape than the ones that the national guard in their unit. So, they exchanged the two, then brought the tank out here to Winthrop. I helped them with that. We took the night vision material off and took it back to Fort McCoy. And while I was there we visited a Cobra aircraft unit and they wanted to let me know if – they wanted me to figure out if I wanted one Cobra, or if I wanted two. I says, “No I think one will be enough.” So, on the way back we did all the necessary paperwork. Went over to the 452nd again, which that was a unit in there – there’s some people I knew very well. So, we checked out a five- ton tractor and a found a single-drop lowboy and went over to Wisconsin to pick this up. Repainted it and put it up on a pedestal out there in the park. We’re pretty proud of that. The only thing right now is it needs repainting.

DB: They always do.

ES: Maintenance work is – yep. So anyway, our park is – I think it’s quite remarkable. We have a sign-in register. We keep track of the – you can go to a log book out there and alphabetically look up any – any name that you want to visit, and it will give you the row and the aisle that the particular marker is located in.

DB: For the local guys?

ES: No, this is – actually it’s, well US wide and I think we might have one in there from someone overseas as well. Course we get that – we get that from the visits to the hospital, which is right next door, so. We get – I think we get seven hundred and eighty-some pavers out there now, so. So it started out as Sibley County, but finally turned out to be veterans from anywhere.

DB: And the guys you were in Vietnam with do you stay in active contact with them? Or are most of them still in the area? Do you have reunions?

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ES: Oh yeah. Well, we – this big reunion we had in New Ulm just end of last week here sometime. But, you know the – as an example – the legion commander over in the next community, Green Isle, he’s a member of the unit. And I’m commander of the VFW like I mentioned before. And when our – my gambling manager, his – was in the motor pool over in Vietnam. And so it’s a few that we have daily contact with just in this area.

Pause in recording

ES: At any rate in this park we– we put up fifty three by five flags in May and take them down in November. We fly them all twenty-four hours a day. And fifty flags are donated to us by our local VFW. We think it’s quite impressive.

DB: So, a lot of good work?

ES: Pardon me?

DB: A lot of good work.

ES: Yes, by my counterpart — my – the fellow that was mayor for twenty-four years that passed away here shortly after he got an attack by cancer, I guess. I miss him like crazy – we did – he and I did it all. We did have a group of people we worked with, but we didn’t count on them too much. We didn’t have a democracy – we had more of a dictatorship is what we called it. And it worked out quite well. We’re very proud of it.

DB: Okay, well – thank you very much. You did an excellent job.

ES: Well, I’m sure I skipped over a lot of things that you’d probably like to add –

DB: That’s always the case.

ES: Pardon me?

DB: That’s always the case. Do you want to –?

ES: No. I was gonna show you one picture here that I have.

DB: Okay I will keep the recording running here.

ES: This is a picture of myself and the two little girls that were –

DB: Oh yeah.

ES: In our compound or tailor was in our compound. That was his two little girls. But I don’t have much else for – Vietnam pictures.

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DB: I’m gonna shut off the recording here and we’ll talk about the pictures then.

ES: You go right ahead.

DB: Okay? Thank you.

End of Interview

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