Vol. 728 Wednesday No. 160 8 June 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh Motion for an Humble Address His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh Motion that a Message be Conveyed Questions Oil Prices Businesses: Regional Growth Fund Allotments Travellers: Dale Farm Winterbourne View Private Notice Question Syria Private Notice Question Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and Representations) Bill [HL] Motion to Refer to Second Reading Committee European Union Bill Report (1st Day) Research: Science and Technology Committee Report Question for Short Debate European Union Bill Report (1st Day) (Continued)

Grand Committee War Widows’ Association of Great Britain Migrant Domestic Workers Disabled People: User-led Organisations Anti-Semitism Questions for Short Debate

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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“Wallace”, which took part in the Allied landings in House of Lords Sicily in July 1943, and first lieutenant of HMS “Whelp”, which partook in the surrender of Japan. He then Wednesday, 8 June 2011. went on to attain the rank of lieutenant commander in 1950 and of commander in 1952, by which time his 3pm active naval career had come to an end following the Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Derby. untimely and premature death of his father-in-law King George VI. Following his marriage to the then Princess Elizabeth His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh in November 1947 and her accession to the throne in Motion for an Humble Address February 1952, Prince Philip, who had by then become the Duke of Edinburgh, began his new role in public 3.07 pm life in support of the many duties, engagements and Moved By Lord Strathclyde responsibilities carried out by Her Majesty the Queen. He is patron or president of some 800 organisations, That an Humble Address be presented to Her foremost among them the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award, Majesty The Queen as follows: a charity which has touched the lives of more than “Most Gracious Sovereign, 4 million young people in more than 60 countries since We, YourMajesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, its inception. He maintains an active interest in industry, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament conservation and the environment, most prominently assembled, beg leave as the first president of the UK arm of the World Wildlife Fund. He is also a proud father, a grandfather To assure Your Majesty that this House looks and most recently a great-grandfather, achievements forward to the ninetieth birthday of His Royal and accolades sometimes too obvious to mention, but Highness the Duke of Edinburgh; nevertheless sources of immense pride. He is a keen To convey to Your Majesty the admiration that sportsman, a tireless collector, a passionate supporter is felt by this House for His Royal Highness; and of the arts, of education, of our Armed Forces and of To express the hope that His Royal Highness the the Commonwealth—to do full justice to Prince Philip’s Duke of Edinburgh may long continue to enjoy achievements and interests would require a litany. good health and happiness.” He is a man of extraordinary range, commitment, involvement and passion. The Duke has been at the The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord heart of what this country is about for almost his Strathclyde): My Lords, it is with the greatest pleasure entire adult life. We owe to him a significant debt of that I invite the House to agree this Motion today and gratitude for all that he has done and continues to do thereby to place on record, on behalf of this House and I know that the whole House will wish to join me and the nation, our sincere admiration for His Royal in conveying our warmest congratulations to His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh and our gratitude Highness on the occasion of his forthcoming 90th birthday. for his unswerving contribution to our national life I beg to move. ahead of his 90th birthday this Friday. The longest serving consort in British history, for over half a century the Duke has both steadfastly supported Her 3.13 pm Majesty the Queen in her important work and at the same time created a distinctive and much valued role Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, it is a very for himself in our national story. Like his predecessor great privilege for me to have the honour to associate a century before, Prince Philip has served our institutions the Opposition Benches and myself with the tribute with great dignity and honour. His role at the heart that the Leader of the House has paid to His Royal of a partnership that has helped to bequeath a glorious Highness the Duke of Edinburgh on the occasion of reign has been something both fundamental and his forthcoming 90th birthday. The country holds Her very special. Majesty the Queen in very high esteem and regard, all Few of us can fail to admire Prince Philip when he the more so since the royal wedding in April and the comes to the State Opening of Parliament and sits success of the extraordinary visit by the Queen to quietly but resolutely next to Her Majesty on the Ireland last month. A fundamental part of that esteem Throne, with a twinkle in the eye and a profound is the role played by His Royal Highness as the Queen’s understanding of the values of duty and service; and consort—indeed, the longest-serving royal consort in with an intrinsic grasp of our national character and British history. In doing so he has virtually defined the spirit. Prince Philip has remained constant to this role, at least since it was carried out for Queen Victoria country and its people, and today we are going to by Prince Albert. recognise and thank him for that. In a BBC documentary for his 90th birthday, to be Born on 10 June 1921, a prince of Greece and broadcast tomorrow night, I understand that the Duke Denmark, Prince Philip and his family were evacuated says of his role: from Greece in 1922 by a Royal Navy ship, subsequently “It has all been trial and error”, settling in France. Educated in Germany and the but as his son, the Duke of Wessex, says in the United Kingdom, he joined the Royal Navy as a cadet programme: in 1939 at the onset of the Second World War. His “That kind of view is typical of him. He is very modest about appointments included that of first lieutenant of HMS himself”. 257 Duke of Edinburgh[LORDS] Duke of Edinburgh 258

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] 10th decade. Far from being a gnarled old man, the While the Duke of Edinburgh may indeed be modest, Duke has retained his bounce and his interest in life. his achievements are not. For many people all over the His robust sense of humour has added a welcome world, the words “Duke of Edinburgh” are inextricably informality to official occasions. A reported conversation linked with the award scheme which carries his name. at a press reception to mark the Golden Jubilee in Since 1956 when the scheme to help the development 2002 went something like this. The Duke said to a of young people began, a staggering 7 million young journalist, “Who are you?”. “I’m the editor in chief of people have taken part in it across 132 countries—an the Independent, sir”, replied one Peter Kellner. “What astonishing achievement. are you doing here?”. “Youinvited me, sir”. “Well, you As he approaches his 90th birthday on Friday, we didn’t have to come”. How can exchanges of this kind give heartfelt thanks for all that His Royal Highness not but add to the gaiety of nations? the Duke of Edinburgh has done for Her Majesty the More seriously, the Duke of Edinburgh, with his Queen, for his service to this country, including his originality of thought and readiness to challenge accepted own fine naval record of service, for all the causes truths, has played a key role in modernising the monarchy, which have benefited from being associated with him encouraging, as we have heard, millions of the young and especially for the many millions of people who to undertake challenges. He has made significant have participated in the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award contributions to conservation and undertaken the programme and whose lives have, as a result, been patronage of more than 800 organisations, as we have immeasurably altered and improved and whose also already heard. Above all, he has been a steady volunteering has, in turn, altered and improved the and ever present consort to Her Majesty the Queen. lives of so many others. Long may he continue in this and his many other roles. The Motion before the House today speaks rightly Once again, on behalf of the Cross-Bench Peers, I of the outstanding service to the nation given by His am privileged to join all sides of your Lordships’ Royal Highness in supporting the Queen, and his own House in offering our congratulations to His Royal deep contribution to our national life. Those are exactly Highness the Duke of Edinburgh, and to support the right sentiments and exactly what we on these wholeheartedly the humble Address and the Motion Benches wish to support. standing in the name of the noble Lord the Leader of the House. 3.15 pm Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I am delighted to associate 3.19 pm the Liberal Democrat Benches with the humble Address The Archbishop of York: My Lords, on behalf of to be presented to Her Majesty the Queen, and the these Benches, I express the warmest congratulations message to be conveyed to His Royal Highness the to His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh on the Duke of Edinburgh on his 90th birthday. The essential occasion of his 90th birthday. As the embodiment of feature of our democracy is the strength and stability devotion, duty and loyalty in service to our country, of our monarchy. Whereas in other parts of the world the Duke has been a model example to us all. presidents and prime ministers come and go, we can take great pride that next year we will celebrate the As someone who shares a birthday with the Duke, I Diamond Jubilee of Her Majesty the Queen. look with admiration and—if it is allowed in someone from these Benches—envy on his stamina and resilience. The Duke of Edinburgh has been the longest Until 2006, he was still pursuing his passion for carriage serving consort and the oldest serving spouse of a driving and competing with fell ponies. We have witnessed reigning British monarch. During all this time he has his tireless energy again in recent days with the royal accompanied the Queen to various countries abroad. The wedding, the historic visit to the Republic of Ireland Commonwealth, particularly the new Commonwealth, and the welcome to the President of the United States takes great pride in its loyalty to and respect for the of America, Barack Obama, on his state visit. I have Queen and the Duke. It is because of our Royal had particular cause to reflect on these qualities over Family that the Commonwealth has continued to be the past couple of weeks during a stay in St Thomas’s an important political voice on the world stage. Hospital, where, in the words of the consultant surgeon, As a person born in east Africa, I take great pride in Mr Simon Atkinson, I had to have “a nasty appendix” one other matter. Prior to the Queen’s accession in removed. I was discharged from hospital only this 1952, the royal couple visited Kenya. She came to us as morning. In my somewhat fragile state, the question in a princess and we sent her back as a Queen. We wish my mind has been a very simple one: how does the His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh many Duke do it? happy returns and thank him for his services to the His Royal Highness’s long record of service to our United Kingdom. nation began before his marriage to Her Majesty the Queen. As for many who risked their lives in the cause 3.17 pm of freedom during action in the Second World War, Baroness D’Souza: My Lords, nine decades is a the Duke’s record of military service was a distinguished long time and covers a great deal of ground and one. As an officer in the Royal Navy, his quick thinking change. It is my happy task, on behalf of the Cross-Bench in distracting a Luftwaffe bomber saved the lives of Peers, to wish His Royal Highness a very happy birthday many on board HMS “Wallace”. After the war, his and many congratulations on reaching such a venerable marriage to the then Princess Elizabeth brought much age, while at the same time confounding all the happiness and hope to a nation during what were still stereotypical views we hold of someone facing his uncertain and straitened times. The recent wedding of 259 Duke of Edinburgh[8 JUNE 2011] Oil Prices 260 the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge has been a We, the Lords spiritual, wish His Royal Highness reminder of how much the spirits of our nation can be the Duke many happy returns and associate our sentiments lifted during difficult days by events that capture the with all sides of the House. imagination and draw on the symbols and heritage that underpin our history and identity. Motion agreed nemine dissentiente and the Lord Since giving up his 14-year naval career, His Royal Chamberlain was ordered to present the Address to Her Highness has acted, as we have heard, as patron to Majesty. some 800 organisations, as well as being chancellor of the University of Cambridge. In particular, I pay tribute to his passionate commitment to the welfare of His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh our nation’s young people, notably through the award Motion that a Message be Conveyed scheme which bears his name and which has been an inspiration to so many other similar schemes overseas. 3.25 pm The award scheme’s emphasis on physical achievement Moved By Lord Strathclyde and service as ways of building confidence and character reflects the Duke’s own experience and values. That a Message be conveyed to His Royal Highness Underpinning those values has been his rootedness the Duke of Edinburgh as follows: within the Christian religion, first within the Greek Orthodox Church and now for many decades within “Your Royal Highness, the Anglican branch of, We, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament “the one Catholick and Apostolick Church”, assembled, warmly congratulate YourRoyal Highness on Your Royal Highness’s forthcoming ninetieth giving steadfast and tireless support to Her Majesty in birthday; her role as the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. We express our gratitude for YourRoyal Highness’s outstanding service to the nation, not only in supporting Not everyone is aware that His Royal Highness has Her Majesty The Queen throughout Her Majesty’s a keen interest in theological questions. Bishops who reign but also in making Your Royal Highness’s are invited to stay and preach at Sandringham face a own deep contribution to national life, in particular barrage of serious theological questions over lunch—and in YourRoyal Highness’s distinguished naval service there is nowhere to hide. He listens appreciatively but in the second world war and in YourRoyal Highness’s never uncritically. In my case, the sermon was based creation of the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award which on Jesus turning water into wine at Cana in Galilee. In has done so much to encourage the development of conversation, the Duke suggested many possible young people; explanations for the miracle as opposed to the one that I was giving. He even included a Uri Geller-type We wish YourRoyal Highness many happy returns.” explanation. He produced a spoon that Uri Geller had bent for him. “Yousee this?” he said, “That could have Motion agreed nemine dissentiente and it was ordered been it”. To my rescue came that still, small voice of that the Message be conveyed to His Royal Highness by calm from Her Majesty the Queen, saying, “Philip and the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord Speaker, his theories!”. Secondly, among the Duke’s theological the Leader of the House (Lord Strathclyde), Lord interests are several publications that he co-authored, Brabazon of Tara, Baroness D’Souza, Lord McNally including “Survival or Extinction: A Christian Attitude and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon. to the Environment”, a work that incorporated another of his enduring concerns—wildlife preservation and care for the environment. Oil Prices In ecclesiastical affairs, as on other issues, the Duke Question of Edinburgh likes to cut to the heart of the matter. My right reverend friend the current Bishop of Norwich 3.27 pm recalls that, on first arriving at Sandringham, the Duke Asked By Lord Barnett asked him, “Are you happy clappy?”. To that, he responded, “No, I’m smells and bells”. I am pleased to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans say that, following this robust exchange, they got on HM Treasury has to ensure that inflation is reduced fine. and consumers derive benefit when there is a reduction Humour is ever one of the Duke’s characteristics. in oil prices. The Duke is in fact a tease par excellence. For example, when showing me around the restored chapel in Windsor The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Castle after the devastating fire, he said, “Come and Sassoon): My Lords, the independent Monetary Policy see my new piece of modern art”. I looked at it but Committee of the Bank of England, the MPC, is could not work it out and had to ask, “Who is the responsible for maintaining price stability. It sets policy artist?”. With a big laugh, he said, “That’s a piece of to meet the inflation target in the medium term. The wood saved from the fire”. Later on, in writing to him, MPC continues to judge that inflation is likely to fall I suggested that he send that piece of modern art to back through 2012 and 2013. Petrol retailing is a the Yaohnanen tribe, in Tanna, who regard him as a competitive market. It is that competition which should god. I will leave noble Lords to imagine his response. see reductions in oil prices passed on to consumers. 261 Oil Prices[LORDS] Oil Prices 262

Lord Barnett: I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. Lord Sassoon: Well, I am always reluctant to disagree I am conscious of the fact that he has a propensity to with the analysis of my noble friend who has considered quote what I said some 40 years ago. I thought of these matters for many years, but I do disagree because checking this time, but on reflection I realised that the I think that the medium-term target that the Bank of Government have inherited a different policy from England has been given and the framework within that of my time. In 1997, the then Chancellor Gordon which the MPC operates continue to be entirely Brown, as the noble Lord has pointed out, introduced appropriate. Of course, it is a medium-term target, a new policy involving the transfer of power from the and the latest Office for Budget Responsibility forecast Chancellor to the Governor of the Bank of England from March shows inflation coming down to 2.5 per and the Monetary Policy Committee. The Government cent in 2012 and 2 per cent in 2013.The comparison of do not particularly like the then Chancellor but I independent forecasters shows a very similar picture— assume that they are happy with the inheritance. Perhaps 2.3 per cent next year and 2.1 per cent in 2013. This the noble Lord will confirm that. I know that he does shows that the Bank of England has the confidence of not like talking about interest rates but will he also the commentators and the forecasters to continue to confirm the extreme national and international importance work to its mandate successfully. of interest rates and that the Chancellor still has absolute confidence in the governor and his policy for Lord Hughes of Woodside: Is it not the case that dealing with inflation? inflation is never going to reach the benign figures that the Minister says. Yesterday we were warned of a gas Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am very happy to confirm price increase of 19 per cent, an electricity price increase that this Government are entirely comfortable with of 10 per cent, and all the other companies will do the the structure around the MPC and have complete same. How can the noble Lord possibly think that confidence in the governor. I could go on. I have inflation is under control? Is he simply going to let the quotes from 40 years ago. I was going to use quotes spiral continue until we land in bankruptcy? from 30 years ago but if the noble Lord would prefer me not to use them on this occasion I will not do so. However, his words of wisdom are always my guide. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, of course we would not wish to see inflation at the 4.5 per cent it is now. As has Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, I agree with the Bank of been explained, this is very largely driven by global England in keeping interest rates low to support the factors with regard to commodity prices. We are not economy but on the other hand we have rampant only keeping to our tight fiscal policy, which underpins inflation: food inflation is 5 per cent; wheat has gone the ability of the Bank of England to stick to its to 70 per cent; corn is 100 per cent. The consumer is mandate, but we are also giving help to the most being squeezed because we have wage deflation. Does vulnerable—whether that is the budget announcement the Minister agree that the Government are between a that gave a £630 increase in cash in personal allowances rock and a hard place? In that situation, should not for the under-65s, whether it is in the arrangements the Government consider reducing taxes to help the that we made to cut fuel duty effectively by 6p per litre consumer and encourage growth? from what the plans of the previous Government had been, or whether it is increasing the state pension by Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I completely agree with 4.6 per cent. What the Government must do, and are the figures given by the noble Lord for the very doing, is to protect the most vulnerable in our society. considerable increases in commodity prices over the past year. Those are, of course, driven by global Lord Newby: My Lords, with the Chinese economy, factors, but they impact very severely on consumers the Indian economy and many other economies still and businesses in this country. That much I agree with. growing strongly, is it not likely that the price of oil He referred to low interest rates. This is absolutely and other fossil fuels will remain high for the foreseeable critical. We have almost record low interest rates on future? In those circumstances, does the Minister agree our 10-year gilts at the moment—3.33 per cent, I that the Government’s carbon reduction strategy assumes think, last night. That is a recognition of the confidence an even greater importance? In that context, can he that the Government have in the underlying fiscal tell us when the Government plan to bring forward the policy but it also reinforces that the Government’s Bill formally establishing the green investment bank? contribution is to make sure that we continue to have a prudent view on public finances and do not deviate from the course that we set for reducing the fiscal Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we will bring forward the deficit that we inherited. Bill in due course when it is in good shape. I take my noble friend’s point about commodity prices. It reinforces Lord Higgins: My Lords, is it not clear that the the fact that we need to ensure that all energy users get mechanism set up by Mr Gordon Brown for controlling advice to use energy efficiently in order to reduce their inflation is not working and that the Monetary Policy household bills. That is part of where we are targeting Committee of the Bank of England is taking a number government help. of other factors into account in addition to inflation? That being so, would it not be appropriate to revise Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, when energy and improve the remit given to the MPC rather than prices and oil prices rise, the price to the consumer the Governor of the Bank of England having to write rises very quickly. When world prices fall, the price to letter after letter after letter to the Chancellor of the the consumer falls very slowly. What are the Government Exchequer explaining why inflation is above target? going to do about that? 263 Oil Prices[8 JUNE 2011] Businesses: Regional Growth Fund 264

Lord Sassoon: I have no idea what the noble Lord’s or a loan for the business the first time round, you go evidence for that is. The most recent intervention out there to find another business that will join you so taken by the Government was to cut fuel duty, as I that you can get it. This is a competitive process, which explained, by 1p per litre on Budget day. The price at is what we want it to be, and I think it will succeed. the pump over the following few days fell by 0.8p per litre, despite rising oil prices over those same days. The Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, the credit crunch which market was investigated by Ofgem or the OFT. The started four years ago was as a result of the sub-prime competition authorities looked at the market for oil crisis. After the credit crunch came the financial crisis prices in 1998 and have not sought to look at it again. then the recession and then the sovereign debt crisis, If the noble Lord or anyone else has evidence about but the biggest domino effect was that lending to small prices, Ofgem, which looks at the market, has dealt businesses all but froze. Are the Government really with them recently and I am sure that the OFT will as doing enough to compel or encourage the banks to well. lend to small businesses, given the support that we have given to the banks over those years? Businesses: Regional Growth Fund Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the noble Lord will Question know that my right honourable friend in another place, the Secretary of State, is for ever speaking to and with businesses. Yes, of course we know that we 3.36 pm need a predictable tax system to reward endeavour; we Asked By Lord Harrison know that we need better access to both debt and equity finance; and we know that we need to reduce To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many red tape. We are working hard on all of that. small and medium-sized enterprises have been helped by the Regional Growth Fund, and what other Lord Cotter: My Lords, other support for small plans they have to help such businesses. businesses is intended to come through local enterprise partnerships. Will the Minister take on board concerns The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, that not enough small businesses—not in sufficient Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness force—are being involved in local enterprise partnerships Wilcox): My Lords, about one-third of the £450 million throughout the country? This is of great concern. conditionally allocated for successful bids in round 1 Surely this should be part of the approval process that will benefit small and medium-sized enterprises. Our the Minister has to go through when he sets up the expectation is that at least 1,000 SMEs, located in local enterprise partnerships in the first place. areas where there is not already a vibrant private sector and culture of enterprise, will benefit directly Baroness Wilcox: The evidence is that we have been from round 1. The second round of the fund is bigger, overwhelmed by the number of bids that have come in. and we expect further bids that will benefit SMEs. For the second round that we are in now, there is an enormous number of bids, which is very heartening. It is competitive, and people are doing awfully well with Lord Harrison: Given that only one-third of the it. I hope that I can speak later to the noble Lord and successful submissions are from small businesses, whereas reassure him on this with the evidence that we have. the regional growth fund was designed to help small businesses, does the Minister accept that a flaw in the Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, given design of that fund is that you had to submit a the record levels of youth unemployment, is the Minister minimum bid of £1 million, which is out of reach for aware of the newly released data from the Federation many small businesses? Does she accept that the advice of Small Businesses showing that only 8 per cent of on the BIS help site is absurd, given that the proposal small businesses have taken on an apprentice in the that you should spatchcock together lots of different past year? This is concerning, given that in 2009 more projects from small businesses not only increases than half of the apprenticeships took place in businesses bureaucracy but means that projects are brought together with fewer than 50 employees. Furthermore, the federation which are unnatural neighbours? Is it not time that the believes that allocated funding to apprenticeships must Government thought big about small businesses? be used to benefit micro-businesses—that is, businesses that are likely to take on their first apprentice with the Baroness Wilcox: I know exactly what the noble potential to grow. It believes that the Government Lord is talking about: the threshold value of £1 million should better promote group training agencies or seems very high for very small businesses. We recognise apprentice training agencies. that £1 million is too high a threshold for the smallest businesses. Sadly, it would take much time and resource Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I expected this question to deal with a very high number of very small bids. We to come from the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, whom I see have addressed that point by conditionally allocating is in the House today. My answer to this question is funding to organisations with experience of the SME that this is a challenge fund and projects can cover sector, so that they can work with it to deliver the whatever the bidders want. The aim of the fund is to grants. Projects below £1 million can join up with create jobs and these could include apprenticeships—a other projects to form a coherent package and can bid key part of this Government’s growth agenda. We together to meet the threshold. I come from a business look forward to bids coming forward for apprenticeship background and know that if you cannot get a grant growth. 265 Businesses: Regional Growth Fund[LORDS] Allotments 266

Lord Sugar: My Lords, my question for the Minister The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells: My Lords, I is not the one that she was anticipating. She will recall wonder whether the Minister is aware that, in the that in my short stint at BIS as an adviser to the 19th century, the Bishop of Bath and Wells was one of Government, I concentrated on the business link centres. the founders of the allotment movement. I have to say At the end of that period, I concluded that they were, that there are questions about why he founded the frankly, a waste of money. I was told that they cost allotment movement, but he did. The Minister may £250 million per year. Will the Minister give us an also be aware that under the present development of update on the status of the business link centres and the Bishop’s Palace in Wells—in opening it more effectively indicate whether she has come to the same conclusion? to the public—the palace hosts not only the city Will the money that was given to the business link allotments but a new community garden. I note that centres be deployed somewhere else? the National Trust has pledged some 1,000 allotments on its premises by 2012, and ask the Minister to encourage the development of land on all suitable Baroness Wilcox: I was not prepared to answer a estates open to the public as allotments or community question on that, but I will of course send an answer gardens. to the noble Lord. I would like to reassure him that I think that he would approve of the system that we are using here. It is working. The bids have already levered Baroness Hanham: My Lords, that is a fascinating in £2.5 billion private sector funding. Maybe he would bit of history from the right reverend Prelate, which I like to follow carefully how we are proceeding with did not know but I enjoyed hearing about. Of course, this sum—and maybe even support us in some ways. he is right that the National Trust has already started developing allotments and, yes, wherever allotments can be provided and wherever authorities or bodies Allotments are able to provide them, we could encourage that, because too many people who would like to grow their Question own food are waiting for allotments. The more provision, the better. 3.43 pm Asked By Baroness Sharples Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: Does the noble Baroness agree with me that allotments have many To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans virtues, among them the fact that they provide an they have for the future of allotments. important habitat for honey-bees and other kinds of bees? Indeed, some allotment users keep bees on their allotments. Are the Government ensuring that research The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, funding is being sustained in order to monitor and, if Department for Communities and Local Government possible, to reverse the decline in the honey-bee population (Baroness Hanham): My Lord, it is local authorities in this country? If she cannot tell the House now that have a duty to provide statutory allotments. The perhaps she would be kind enough to write to me. Government are keen to support local communities that want to use local spaces for community food growing, and to protect existing land for this purpose. Baroness Hanham: My Lords, bees are a little beyond New neighbourhood planning provisions in the Localism my brief and a little beyond my department’s brief. I Bill will provide a new right for communities to shape am extremely happy to refer the question, probably to their local areas, including the means to boost allotment Defra, and to ensure the noble Baroness has a reply. provision. Lord Greaves: My Lords, I remind the House that I am a local councillor; I am pleased to say that we have Baroness Sharples: I thank my noble friend for that just provided some new allotments in my ward. In reply. I realise that the Localism Bill will help, but are areas with town and parish councils, the town and local councils playing by the rules in providing alternative parish councils are the statutory allotment authorities sites when those present sites are needed for development and very often run all the local allotments. They are or whatever? An enormous number of people who often very good at managing the allotments and running write to one now are looking for allotments and them in an economic and financially viable way. The cannot get them. They have to wait years. problem of producing new allotments is providing the capital funding in the beginning to set up the allotments Baroness Hanham: My Lords, we already know that before they can be managed. That is a real problem for there is a 50 per cent extra requirement for allotments. town and parish councils. Will the Government look Local authorities can, of course, make land available again at it? if they have it for allotments. The neighbourhood planning provisions in the Localism Bill, to which my Baroness Hanham: My Lords, it is right that local noble friend refers, will enable neighbourhoods to authorities have the statutory responsibility for allotments, identify land where they think allotments could be and it would be up to them if they wished to put aside provided within their neighbourhood plan and have a capital sum to provide more in their area. I do not that agreed by the local authority. There are, therefore, think that the Government can direct them to do that, methods by which new allotments can be provided, although we recognise that many people want allotments. but I recognise immediately that there are far too few I certainly do not think that my department would tell for those who want them. local authorities that they had to provide them. 267 Allotments[8 JUNE 2011] Travellers: Dale Farm 268

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Does the noble Baroness Earl Attlee: My Lords, the Home Office has agreed think that we would have such erudite questions about to set aside contingency funding, up to a maximum of allotments and bees if we had an elected second £4.65 million, to assist with the costs of policing the Chamber? proposed evictions at Dale Farm. The final grant awarded will be agreed after the operation and will Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I admire the noble only cover the costs incurred. In addition, the Department Lord’s ingenuity in getting such a question into Question for Communities and Local Government has committed Time. I shall not spend any more time trying to to provide up to £1.2 million to Basildon Borough answer it. Council to support the evictions at Dale Farm. Lord Avebury: My Lords, will my noble friend Lord Harrison: As with the regional growth fund comment on the decision to spend £117,000 per family and inflation, on allotments have the Government lost on eviction of these people from the Dale Farm site the plot? considering that there are no other sites in the county to which they could be directed? Does this policy not Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I am not sure who simply mean that another £18 million will have to be has lost the plot and it is not an issue I want to address spent by local authorities down the line on evicting the this afternoon. same families from even less suitable locations, to say nothing of the downstream costs on health, education and the social costs arising from these evictions? Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, my family have some allotments in Surrey—I live in Devon. They Earl Attlee: My Lords, this is an extremely difficult are run by the allotment holders, who provide everything and sensitive issue which my noble friend has worked that is needed to keep them running; they do not need on to good effect for decades. He suggests that this is the local authority. Is this not an example of the big an inappropriate use of potentially several million society? pounds of public money. However, there will be no need for any expensive police operation if those served Baroness Hanham: My Lords, self-help and people with eviction notices leave within 28 days having exhausted working for themselves, producing their own answers all their appeal rights under our well developed system and working without government intervention of course of justice and the rule of law. Why should one community is the big society at its best. After all, the big society is group be allowed to flout our planning laws by suggesting just about that; it is about local people working for disorder and thus an unaffordable police operation themselves and for others and looking after their while a lone family or individual is easily required to neighbours. In that regard, what could be better than comply? working on an allotment? Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, does the local authority not have a responsibility to have concern Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble for these families? I believe there are 100 children Baroness has referred to the neighbourhood planning involved. Surely there is an obligation on the council regimes of the Localism Bill and how they may be to look after their welfare: indeed, I believe there is an beneficial to allotment development. What protections EU resolution on the stocks which would commit the are in the system to prevent aggressive development of local authority to doing precisely that. Why are these allotments by narrowly focused neighbourhood forums? people being deprived of their homes after all the years that they have lived on this site? Baroness Hanham: My Lords, allotments are protected: one cannot just come in and take them over. Land is Earl Attlee: My Lords, the noble Baroness is absolutely made available for allotments and it is a statutory right right. Basildon Borough Council had to make an for them to be there. It would only be if allotment undertaking to the High Court that the matters which owners did not want those allotments that they could the noble Baroness referred to would be dealt with be addressed within a neighbourhood plan and with properly. the wish of the neighbourhood that they should change hands. I do not believe that anybody can aggressively Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, could my take over allotments. noble friend tell me whether Basildon Borough Council has undertaken an equality assessment of its decision to evict the Gypsies and Travellers from this site? Travellers: Dale Farm Question Earl Attlee: My Lords, if Basildon Borough Council had not carried out a proper impact assessment of all the consequences of its action, it would probably fail 3.50 pm in the courts. Asked By Lord Avebury The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, is the Minister To ask Her Majesty’s Government what amounts aware of the deep concern that many Traveller children have been promised, by which Government are not being well engaged in the education system, departments, as contributions towards the costs of that they are being failed and that the generational policing proposed evictions at Dale Farm. impact of continued failure is being perpetuated? 269 Travellers: Dale Farm[LORDS] Winterbourne View 270

[THE EARL OF LISTOWEL] Baroness Hollins: My Lords, I declare an interest as Is consideration being given to the education of these a psychiatrist who has spent much of the last 30 years children and what steps can be taken to ensure that working with people with learning disabilities who they have continuity of education and, if possible, stay have similar needs to those of the subjects of the in the same school? shocking “Panorama” programme. I am also the carer of an adult man who has a learning disability and Earl Attlee: My Lords, the noble Earl makes an whose behaviour at times challenges those who extremely important point. If we carry on not properly support him. I have also been a policy adviser on educating Traveller children we will never break the learning disability to the Department of Health on cycle, because it is very difficult for Traveller families two occasions. to engage in fully legitimate economic activity if they have not been properly educated. I referred to undertakings in my answer to the noble Baroness: the local authority The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, has to deal with these issues. Department of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, the safety and quality of care of those with learning Lord Avebury: My Lords, can my noble friend disabilities are of the highest importance. We will explain where these people are supposed to go, considering discuss the terms of reference for the serious case that there are no other sites in Essex, and no sites in review with South Gloucestershire Council. We want the county plan? to ensure that the terms of reference for all of the Earl Attlee: My Lords, the local authority has reviews by the local authority, the strategic health obligations under the law of homelessness, as the authorities and the Care Quality Commission will give noble Lord fully appreciates. I go back to my original us the evidence that we need to answer the serious point: we cannot allow people to flout our planning questions raised by the events at Winterbourne View. laws. We have asked Mark Goldring, the chief executive of Mencap, to work closely with us in reviewing the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the original evidence. Question was about cost. The noble Earl will know that currently we are debating the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, which proposes to party- Baroness Hollins: My Lords, I thank the Minister politicise our police force through the election of for his response. The national picture needs to be police commissioners. Would it not be true to say that thought about. This matter is not happening just in the money being spent on those elected commissioners south Gloucestershire. I understand that there may be would be better spent on ensuring that our police as many as 150 private hospitals. I consider that to be forces are properly staffed? unacceptable given the three decades of work to close NHS long-stay hospitals, which was finally achieved Earl Attlee: My Lords, I thought that the noble just two years ago. Will the Minister consider reversing Lord would raise the issue of police and crime the decision to end the employment of the national commissioners; I would have been very disappointed director for learning disabilities, who, as a policy adviser if he had not. We do not intend to limit the influence to the department, could have responsibility for of central government on policing decisions only to overseeing the implementation of government guidance? see the same restrictions imposed by PCCs. They will The Mansell report gives guidance on how to manage provide the community with a voice and local and support people with learning disabilities and accountability that is currently non-existent. challenging behaviour in the community, rather than exporting them a long way from home to private Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, it is clear that hospitals. this is a very complex issue. I hope that the House and noble Lords will appreciate that if this site is occupied illegally, action has to be taken to remove the occupiers. Earl Howe: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble If the law is not upheld in this instance, how on earth Baroness. She raises some important issues. I am can it be upheld in other instances which may be just aware that the chief executive designate of the National as important? Health Service commissioning board and the current chief executive of the National Health Service, David Earl Attlee: I am sure that all noble Lords agree Nicholson, will be looking at the whole question of that the noble Lord has made a very good point. national clinical directors and leadership in clinical care in the coming months. Winterbourne View The noble Baroness is right about care in the Private Notice Question community. That has been the direction of travel 3.57 pm under the previous Government, as it is now. She will know that many Winterbourne View residents were Asked By Baroness Hollins sectioned under the Mental Health Act and had To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to challenging behaviour, an area I know she has yesterday’s Written Ministerial Statement, whether experience of. I believe that privately provided care can they will ensure that the terms of reference of the be trusted; if the commissioning is right, if regulation serious case review into the abuse at Winterbourne is right and if the arrangements for oversight are View encompass the question of the appropriateness right, it is not intrinsically less likely that privately of placing people with learning disabilities in private provided care will be delivered at the right levels of hospitals. quality. 271 Winterbourne View[8 JUNE 2011] Syria 272

Baroness Thornton: I am seeking assurance from and development, ADAS, Mencap and with experts the Minister that there will be a wide-ranging and with experience of this programme. The spirit of my independent review of this matter, held in public, that noble friend’s question is amply addressed in the will shine a light on what happened at Winterbourne programme. View and allow the wider lessons to be learnt. We need to know whether the CQC’s failure to monitor the Lord Laming: Will the Minister encourage the treatment of residents was due to the fact that there Government to reinforce messages about managerial was a shortage of CQC staff. Does the CQC have accountability wherever vulnerable people are being sufficient powers to act in this case and, if so, is it cared for and about the fact that the greater the degree using its powers adequately? Could the Minister also of vulnerability, the greater that accountability must comment on the wisdom of placing more regulatory be held by the managers of the service? tasks with the CQC, as the Government are proposing in the process of reorganisation? Surely we need to see that Earl Howe: The noble Lord is quite right. There has the CQC is carrying out its current functions adequately. clearly been a serious failing in management here. We are looking at that urgently and, no doubt, important Earl Howe: My Lords, first, there is a criminal lessons will be learnt. All agencies have acted immediately investigation under way and it would not be appropriate on being alerted to the situation by the “Panorama” to launch an inquiry, even if we were minded to do so. team and, as I have mentioned, appropriate inquiries As the noble Baroness knows, the CQC has launched are under way. its own internal investigation. It has admitted that there were failings in its processes. South Gloucestershire Baroness Wall of New Barnet: I agree with the Council will lead an independently chaired serious Minister about the response around the Care Quality case review, as has been mentioned, involving all agencies, Commission. When such a result as this comes out, which will look at the lessons to be learnt. The strategic the undermining is quite damaging right across the health authorities involved have instigated a serious whole spectrum of its work. In hospital trusts and untoward incident investigation. The department will, everywhere else, the CQC’s inspection and report are after these reviews have been concluded, examine all held in great esteem if they are good and are very the evidence and report to Parliament. worrying if they are not. I wonder whether that is We want to understand not only the immediate denigrated by this unfortunate incident and this awful facts and why things went wrong at Winterbourne opportunity that it has had and missed. View but also whether there are more systemic weaknesses in the arrangements for looking after people with Earl Howe: My Lords, I take the noble Baroness’s learning disabilities and who exhibit seriously challenging point. It is very easy to blame the CQC whereas we behaviour. It is very easy to make the CQC into a should in fact first point the finger at those who scapegoat. It is difficult to ask of the CQC that it perpetrated these awful acts and at the management of polices every room in every hospital at every hour of the hospital. There are a number of other agents the day. We rely on the CQC and have been supportive involved besides the regulator. We are committed to of it. It does much good work and clearly it will want developing the role of the Care Quality Commission to review its own processes as part of this. to make it a more effective regulator of health services in England. Those efforts can be supplemented by the Baroness Barker: Does the Minister agree that when role of HealthWatch, which she will know we proposed this abuse was taking place, a number of professionals, in the Bill before the other place to strengthen the including nurses and doctors, must have gone into that arrangements for the patient and public voice. I am establishment and that these professional bodies should sure that there is more that we are able to do, but it is start to conduct their own inquiries into what their important that we learn the facts first before pointing staff were doing in there at the time? Secondly, a bad the finger at the regulator or anybody else. provider of care has everything to fear from an unannounced visit, while a good provider of care has The Earl of Listowel: My Lords— nothing to fear. Does the Minister agree that as a temporary measure the CQC could consider conducting Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: My Lords— only unannounced visits in the foreseeable future? Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, we have Earl Howe: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble reached 10 minutes and should progress to the next friend. My understanding is that all patients at item of business. Winterbourne View have been regularly reviewed by a multidisciplinary clinical team in the past six months Syria on behalf of the primary care trust that commissioned Private Notice Question their care, and most of them in the past three months. I am sure she is right to say that those who have conducted 4.08 pm such reviews should examine their processes and my understanding is that that is exactly what will happen. Asked By Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean We have endorsed the CQC’s proposal to launch a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures programme of risk-based and random unannounced they are proposing the United Nations Security inspections of a sample of the 150 hospitals providing Council should take against the Government of care for people with learning disabilities. They will Syria in the draft resolution they are putting before work in conjunction with local government improvement the Security Council later today. 273 Syria[LORDS] Syria 274

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I has interests around the world. Will he urge the Chinese beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given Government, as they engage around the world, also to private notice. build alliances around the world to promote the interests of their own citizens if not for nobler purposes such as The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth democracy and human rights—which, alas, they do Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, today in not respect? New York, Britain and France, along with Germany, are asking for Security Council support for a resolution Lord Howell of Guildford: My noble friend makes condemning the repression in Syria and calling for the an extremely good point which has certainly occurred Syrian Government to meet their people’s legitimate to me in discussions with senior Chinese diplomats. demands, release all prisoners of conscience, lift restrictions The traditional or conventional stance of the Chinese on the media and the internet and co-operate with the authorities and Chinese Government is that they do UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. The violence not interfere in foreign countries. The reality is that being meted out against peaceful demonstrators in because of extended Chinese influence and involvement Syria is an appalling response to the people demanding throughout the world, whether the Chinese authorities their basic rights and freedom. It is time for the Assad like it or not, they are involved and do have to move regime to stop the violence and reform or step aside. towards taking a responsible position as they become a world force and a world power, an active member of Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I the World Trade Organisation and a responsible authority thank the Minister for that very full response—but is and influence in the world. If this is the role that they it really enough? There are hundreds of Syrian civilians want to play, they will have to be involved in a much who have died in terrible circumstances; worst of all is more positive way, as my noble friend says. the report of a 13 year-old boy who was tortured, emasculated and murdered. There are thousands pouring Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, it is now over the Turkish border and reports of police officers 30 years since I left Damascus as British ambassador being executed for refusing to fire on crowds of civilians. to Syria. Of course I accept that we are absolutely right Does not the Minister believe that the situation in the to condemn these appalling reports on what is happening town of Jisr al-Shughour is so like that in Benghazi in Syria, just as I hope that we condemned in 1982 that similar measures should be taken to protect the similar reports of terrible massacres of people in civilians there? Does he agree with the French Foreign Hama under the present president’s father’s rule. However, Minister, Alain Juppé, with whom the British Government does the Minister accept that whatever its other faults, are sharing the platform today, who said that the Ba’athism as a system of government is a secular system process of reform in Syria is dead and that Syria’s of government? I believe, and I hope that the Minister president has lost his legitimacy to govern? agrees, that we should be extremely careful to do nothing that could desecularise that wonderful country. Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Baroness is absolutely right that the situation is far from getting Lord Howell of Guildford: Those are clearly very better: it is getting worse. The reports of atrocities are wise remarks. I suspect that the noble Lord has more disgusting. We have all been shocked by the news of experience than I do of exactly how we reacted to the the apparent treatment of a young child—indeed of atrocious murders in Hama in 1982, which were conducted many young children—in the mayhem of violence. All by the brother of the then president, Hafiz al-Assad. these questions are being debated today at the United The noble Lord is right that Syria is a secular pattern. Nations. We and the French—the noble Baroness It is also a tribal pattern, and the tribal and family mentioned Monsieur Juppé—are putting forward groups who have ruled Syria are of course not a sentiments very similar to those that she suggested. It majority; they are a minority, among many others. is a question of carrying all opinion in this direction in They have ruled by methods that we regard as order to get effective co-operative and co-ordinated reprehensible, and that are becoming even more so. I action. Not everyone, particularly in the Arab world, accept the noble Lord’s analysis that one could see a has yet reached the point where they have united in very serious disintegration of a country of many tribes seeing that further measures are required beyond those and various religious groups and, indeed, a pattern that we are already proposing. I myself was able to that could develop a far greater infection of jihadism consult with a number of Arab and Gulf leaders last and extreme religious activity. For the moment we will week in that region and had some mixed opinions on have to see how events unfold. We hope that they will whether this was the time for more forceful action. take a better course, but at present there is not much The noble Baroness can be assured that Her Majesty’s room for optimism. Government hold this matter in the strongest-possible and deepest concern. We believe, and fear, that stronger Lord Triesman: My Lords, I also welcome the steps measures will indeed be needed. that are being taken today at the United Nations and I understand the limitations that this Government and Baroness Falkner of Margravine: I congratulate my the French and German Governments must feel about noble friend on the new tougher resolution that the how far they can go. This is, as the Minister has said, a Government are trying to secure through the United savage regime, conducting brutal behaviour towards Nations Security Council. Let us, however, speak plainly. its own people. Can the noble Lord tell us what steps We know that China is one of the countries that is are being taken to engage Arab support in the region likely to veto this resolution. My noble friend will of and whether consideration is being given to the course be aware that Chinese workers in Libya had to International Criminal Court, which must certainly be be taken out on a Chinese frigate, and that China now looking at these as crimes of concern to humanity? 275 Syria[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 276

Lord Howell of Guildford: As Syria is not a signatory Lord Liddle: My Lords, I rise to move this amendment to the International Criminal Court it would need a in a purely formal way. I anticipate that, in speaking to UN resolution to direct such a course. I have no doubt Amendment 2, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, will give that the idea has been circulated but no action has been us assurances that will enable us to withdraw this taken on it. As for gaining the support of the surrounding amendment, but without further ado I would like to region and the leading Arab powers, my right honourable hear what he has to say. friend the Foreign Secretary and other Ministers are in direct contact with a range of leaders in the area. Our The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth posts are in constant contact with the area. I myself Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, I am had contact last week with a number of leaders, including, grateful to those noble Lords who have sought, through although not directly an Arab leader, Mr Najib Mikati the tabling of these amendments and in Committee, to in Lebanon, which is directly affected by what is clarify the spirit of the provisions in the relevant happening in Syria. We keep lines as open as we can clauses of the Bill by tabling all but one of the amendments with all the major influences and parties, not least the before us in this group. I am also grateful to the noble Turkish Government and Mr Erdogan who have some Lord, Lord Liddle, who has just indicated that he is direct line of influence over Bashar al-Assad, but so moving his amendment formally in order, quite rightly, far their efforts have been to no avail. to elicit from the Government our case for the amendment Lord Anderson of Swansea: UN Security Council that we have tabled within the group. Resolutions 1970 and 1973 were built on the platform As my noble friend Lord Wallace made clear in of the Arab League agreement, and that provided a Committee, it has not been and nor should it be the degree of cover, preventing Russia from vetoing the Government’s intention to tie the hands of Ministers resolutions. What is the working assumption of the and their officials who negotiate assiduously in the Government in respect both of the Arab League generally, development of European Union legislation in order which presumably is fairly pessimistic about support, to protect and maximise the UK’s interests and priorities. and the way in which Russia will now react? The fact is that Ministers and officials have participated constructively for many years in the earlier stages of Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord, with his the development and negotiation of various EU measures, experience, is describing precisely the modalities and and nothing in this Bill will prevent that from continuing parameters that my colleagues in the British Government in the same way. When it comes to the point at which and other diplomats are having to cope with in New the final decision is taken in the European Council or York at this moment. There is some hope that a the Council, what the provisions of the Bill are designed resolution can come forward. There are varying views to do is to prevent a Minister from voting in favour of within the Arab League and among Arab leaders a treaty or other measure specified in Part 1 at this about which way to go and how much pressure to final stage, or otherwise allow the adoption of a treaty apply. There have been in the past first the traditional or measure to happen, unless and until he or she has Chinese attitude of non-interference, which I have the approval specified in the relevant clause of the Bill. already described, and secondly some reluctance from As we know, this may be an Act of Parliament or it Moscow to be involved. But this could be changing may be an Act and a referendum where there is a and there comes a point in this transparent interconnected transfer of competence or power. The Bill does not world where the sheer volume of the atrocities means prevent the Government from signing up finally to that there is a unity of intolerance to the continual and participating in anything at the EU level, but misbehaviour. We may get to that point soon. Ministers would first have to have the support of Parliament and, where necessary, of the British people Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and before doing so. Representations) Bill [HL] The amendment tabled in my name in the Marshalled Motion to Refer to Second Reading Committee List makes the position crystal clear, and I hope to the satisfaction of noble Lords. The effect of the amendment 4.17 pm will of course govern the use of the phraseology we Moved By Baroness Anelay of St Johns are concerned with throughout the whole Bill, and That the bill be referred to a Second Reading therefore not oblige us to table a series of consequential Committee. amendments because this change to Clause 1, which is interpretive, will govern the whole Bill. Motion agreed. As my noble friend Lord Wallace explained in Committee, the words we are concerned with, “or European Union Bill otherwise supporting”, are included to make clear Report (1st Day) that, at the point of the final and formal decision in Council or the European Council, a Minister would 4.18 pm be unable to allow a measure to be adopted in Council or the European Council through means other than a Clause 1 : Interpretation of Part 1 positive vote, which under this Bill would have to be preceded by the necessary national procedures—namely, Amendment 1 an Act and a referendum, if required. Articles 235(1) Moved by Lord Liddle of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European 1: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, leave out “supporting” and insert Union and Article 238(4) make clear that abstentions “permitting” at the point of final and formal decision in Council do 277 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 278

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] Government’s amendment. This will confirm to noble not serve to block, but rather are treated as support Lords that we have heard and addressed their concerns. for the adoption of a proposal requiring unanimity. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment, Therefore, letting a measure through by abstention in which seeks an exactly similar effect. the Council and then claiming by way of excuse or explanation, as it were, that although it transferred Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Before the noble Lord competences or powers and should have had national sits down, perhaps we could be just a little clearer. I approval somehow it slipped through and Ministers thank him very much for the letter he sent me and could not help it, would not be allowed. other noble Lords about what I described as the In addition, as many of your Lordships know, in chicken-and-egg situation, which is part of this nexus Brussels matters often do not proceed to a formal that he has been dealing with. That was a very helpful vote. The chairman may just seek the sense of the letter and I would be most grateful if he could agree room, and if no one dissents, take it that the proposal that that letter should not only go to noble Lords who has been finally agreed unanimously. It is then ticked participated in this debate but could also go in the and it goes through. That could happen only after Library of both Houses, because I fear that sometimes national procedures, which would require parliamentary the other place does not take very much cognisance of approval, while if competences and powers are being what is said by Ministers in this House. On this transferred, it would of course require a referendum. occasion, what is said in that letter, in particular about So the phrase “or otherwise supporting” seeks to nothing in this Bill inhibiting Ministers from participating ensure that Parliament and the British people can be in negotiations other than on the final decision, is very confident that there is no possibility that any inaction important. I hope he can agree that the letter should on the part of the Government of the day could allow go in the Library of both Houses. a measure to be finally decided and agreed without the On another point arising from what the noble Lord proper approval of Parliament or the people or, indeed, himself said, I have to confess to some slight confusion both. To allow a measure to be adopted in such a way about how many of the instances of “or otherwise would represent a sleight of hand that would cheat both support” get taken out and how many get left in and this Parliament and the public out of their rightful say. whether there is not a degree of potential ambiguity My noble friend also made the point that, in this from leaving any of them in at all. Perhaps he could way the Government were replicating the phrase used just clarify that point. I had at first thought, and from by the 2008 Act, which was introduced by the previous what he initially said this afternoon, that he was Government when Parliament was approving the actually saying that all the references to “or otherwise ratification of the Lisbon treaty. However, we accept support” were going and that the statement would the point—made, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord simply be that we would not allow any decision to be Davies of Stamford—that, although that was the position taken. That is, I think, the sense of what the Government before, there is no reason why we cannot improve the have been trying to do and what those of us who have drafting of provisions from the past, as indeed we can been trying to amend this provision are trying to do. improve on much else that went on during the past However, I am still not quite clear where we are on Government and seek to do so. that point. We have reflected further on this point, as we have on all the amendments tabled in Committee, as we Lord Howell of Guildford: On the first point, I will should. For the reasons I have given, we have tabled a certainly endeavour to see that the words and wisdom government amendment to spell out, in the interpretation of your Lordships’ House are spread as widely as in Clause 1, exactly what is meant by “or otherwise possible and that the correctness of our view is recognised, supporting” and to explain when and where it applies: in the way that we are changing the phraseology of the to wit, that it is only at the final and formal stage in the past in an improving way. Council, or the European Council, that the bar on As to the question of what is amended by our voting for or abstaining on—in other words, otherwise proposed amendment, I think that I said that by supporting—measures applies, unless or until there changing the definition in the interpretative Clause 1, is parliamentary and, where necessary, public approval, that change governs all references to the particular in which case of course the support could go forward. words we are concerned with throughout the Bill. It We feel that providing this amendment to the definition simply overrides and governs all those references, so provides the clarity that noble Lords were seeking in that there is no need for your Lordships to be bothered their amendments. It spells out unambiguously the with the task of going through each clause amending limitations on Ministers and in doing so makes clear—and or adding the amendment at every stage of the Bill. By I make clear now—that this and future Governments putting it in Clause 1, in the interpretative section, we may negotiate proposals in future in the same way as are governing and rendering effective in the light of they do now and they should seek the views of the the amendment everything that is said throughout the scrutiny committees of both Houses in the same way entire Bill. That is the position as I would like to put it as they do now and undertake any other existing to your Lordships and I believe that that is the correct national approval procedures that are required before one. finally agreeing to a proposal in the European Council or the Council. 4.30 pm That is the position. I hope noble Lords will accept Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: I pay tribute that clarifies the concerns we all had in Committee on to the Minister and to the Government for listening this matter and therefore I will beg to move the with such deep concern to what seemed to me to be 279 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 280 perfectly acceptable phraseology, but which gave noble Clause2:Treaties amending or replacing TEU or Lords opposite considerable difficulty. It seems to me TFEU odd that something that is comfortable, which we already passed in the UK 2008 Act, should somehow Amendment 4 become a discomforting phrase here, but I am none the less absolutely delighted to see that the Minister is Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire able to come forward with what is clearly to other 4: Clause 2, page 2, line 18, after “treaty” insert “also” noble Lords a major concession and clarify a phrase which to some of us seemed perfectly adequate. It is Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I shall speak always good that we should have a consensus in this also to Amendment 7. I hope that the noble Lord, House—your Lordships are known for a consensual Lord Liddle, will regard this too as a major concession approach—and I congratulate and thank the Minister. by the Government. These two amendments are intended to address a point raised by a number of Peers during Lord Howell of Guildford: I am grateful for those our debate on the first day in Committee some weeks remarks. ago on what the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, described as a probing amendment. Lord Liddle: My Lords, I would not go as far as the The noble Baroness, along with the noble Lord, Lord noble Baroness in describing this as a major concession Davies of Stamford, and the noble and learned Baroness, in the Bill. However, in the spirit of good will in the Lady Butler-Sloss, raised the question of the correct consideration of the Bill on Report, we are prepared interpretation of Clauses 2 and 3 with respect to the to withdraw the amendments in my name in the light application of the referendum provision to Gibraltar. of what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has said, subject They raised the concern that the provisions as drafted only to two points of clarification: first, that his letter could result in the need to hold a referendum in the to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, will be deposited in UK even if the proposed treaty change happened to the Library; and, secondly, that we are absolutely clear apply solely to Gibraltar and not to the United Kingdom. that the amendment to the interpretative clause, They said that this would be nonsensical. I agree that Clause 1(7), does therefore govern all the other references in such unlikely circumstances it would be nonsensical. to “otherwise support” in the rest of the Bill, and that As your Lordships’ House is aware, the Bill concerns no one is going to turn around at a later stage and say only the future transfer of competence or power from that a Minister cannot publicly advocate a position, the UK to the EU. As I promised at the end of that either in the Council or in a wider forum, until the debate, we have reflected further on this issue. Our point at which a formal decision has to be taken, so it view remains that the requirement for a referendum to is possible for Ministers publicly to advocate their be held in Gibraltar under the provisions of the EU support for a position, subject to the final decision Bill is not self-standing but is dependent on three having passed all the requirements of this eventual things: first, that there is a treaty change which applies Act. both to the UK and Gibraltar and, secondly, that the treaty change would result in a transfer of competence Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, as a final or power from the UK to the EU. Then and only then word I repeat that the definition will apply to any use does the third condition arise; namely, whether the of this wording elsewhere in the Bill. That is the treaty change would also represent a transfer of definitive statement I am making, and that applies. competence or power from Gibraltar to the EU. That said, we recognise that it is important to be as transparent and clear as possible. That is the Government’s Lord Liddle: On that understanding, I withdraw the intention. Consequently, we have tabled these two amendment. simple amendments to Clauses 2 and 3 to make sure that the meaning is clear beyond doubt. The amendment Amendment 1 withdrawn. makes explicit that only if a treaty change were to apply to both the UK and Gibraltar, and the referendum The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of is to be held in the UK, would that referendum also be Tara): If Amendment 2 is agreed to, I cannot call held in Gibraltar. I beg to move. Amendment 3. Lord Davies of Stamford: I hoped to intervene Amendment 2 before the Minister sat down but I missed my cue. I shall be very brief. As the noble Lord and his colleague, Moved by Lord Howell of Guildford the noble Lord, Lord Howell, have been courteous 2: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, leave out from “Crown” to end of enough to mention me in the context of our debates line 6 and insert— on these matters in Committee, it would be wrong of “(a) voting in favour of the decision in the European me not to say that we on this side appreciate that the Council or the Council, or Government have genuinely reflected on the Committee (b) allowing the decision to be adopted by consensus or stage debate on these two matters, relatively minor unanimity by the European Council or the Council.” though they may be. That is encouraging for us and the hope that we can all take part in improving this Amendment 2 agreed. legislation and that the result of our labours will not be entirely nil. Does the noble Lord have in mind any Amendment 3 not moved. specific contingency in which there might be a proposal 281 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 282

[LORD DAVIES OF STAMFORD] ( ) If the certificate issued under subsection (2)(d) states that involving the transfer of powers from Gibraltar to the more than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the EU, or is this whole subject merely theoretical? Have referendum have voted in it, the treaty may be ratified. the Government provided for it as a purely theoretical ( ) If the certificate issued under subsection (2)(d) states that fewer than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the possibility, or do they have any issue in mind that referendum have voted in it, the treaty may not be ratified unless— might be triggered by this clause? (a) in each House of Parliament a Minister of the Crown has moved a motion that the House approves Her Lord Triesman: My Lords, I appreciate the tabling Majesty’s Government’s intention to ratify the treaty, of these two amendments by the Government. I share and the view of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that they (b) each House has agreed to the motion without will probably not be thought of as huge concessions amendment.” almost anywhere. He put that rather generously and he is quite right—they will not. More to the point, they are wise amendments. It may well be that on Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, Amendment 5, some future occasion he will wish to land in Gibraltar. and the similar Amendment 8 that is grouped with it, He would not want to receive the sort of frosty reception are both in my name. Although these amendments are that he would receive if he had done anything to the relevant to the European Union Bill, they are not people of Gibraltar other than what appears as a about European Union policy. They are about the way result of these two amendments. It is a helpful clarification. in which we deal with referendums in this country and We are satisfied with it and thank him. the role of Parliament, if any, in relation to referendums. Perhaps this might have the unique result that, when Lord Wallace of Saltaire: If no one else wishes to we continue the discussion on this amendment, we intervene, I ought to answer the point raised by the might find that Europhiles, Europhobes and Eurosceptics noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford. I find it difficult are all on the same side, which would be rather unusual. to imagine circumstances in which there would be The amendments have a good—indeed, a noble— proposals that would represent a transfer of powers or parentage, since they are in substance the same as the competences from Gibraltar to the EU. However, I much discussed amendment by the noble Lord, Lord have not looked back at Protocol 3 of the 1972 Act Rooker, to the Parliamentary Voting System and which ratified the treaty of accession and the extremely Constituencies Bill. complicated circumstances in which Gibraltar is treated The effect of Amendment 5 is quite simple. The as a member of the EU but does not take part in all Government have proposed that, if, as a consequence aspects of EU policy. For example, it does not take of the referendum lock set up in the Bill, a national part in the common agricultural policy, but it takes referendum were to be held on any of the about part in the freedom of movement. 50 cases covered by the Bill, that referendum result would be mandatory and Parliament would have no Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: Would the role. This amendment would not change that situation Minister recommend to other European Union member if at least 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote states that have territories that are not specifically part had voted in the referendum. However, if there were a of their geographical parameters—such as Spain and poor turnout and a smaller percentage of the electorate the Canary Islands, and France and her piece of voted, the result would remain valid but would have to territory in north Africa—that they follow the lead of be confirmed by a Motion in each House of Parliament. the United Kingdom in drawing more fully into their This will give Parliament its proper representative role embrace the territories that belong to them? if there were, for example, a derisory turnout. This amendment is particularly relevant to the Bill Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I shall not because all the potential decisions or transfers of detain the House very long. The question of the power or competence to the European Union covered different relationships between the Crown dependencies by the Bill are already subject to our veto and the and the EU, and Gibraltar and the EU, is a deeply Government have stated that they do not intend to arcane subject. I read an extremely long report from make any of these decisions or transfers in the current the Government of Jersey some 18 months ago about Parliament. Unless, therefore, a sunset clause is inserted— the relationship between Jersey and the EU. It is very the subject of later amendments—or, if it becomes an good bedtime reading for anyone who does not wish Act, a future Parliament repeals the Bill, the legislation to go to sleep. These are very complicated areas. has the potential to require national referendums for However, I and our advisers cannot at the moment many years ahead. envisage the likelihood of a referendum. We nevertheless What would be the circumstances of these potential hope that this amendment clarifies the situation. referendums? First, they would be about issues where Amendment 4 agreed. the UK Government had concluded that it would be in the national interest to act. If not, the Government would simply veto the proposal under existing powers. Amendment 5 Secondly, a referendum might be about a change to Moved by Lord Williamson of Horton qualified majority voting. There are 40 different cases 5: Clause 2, page 2, line 22, at end insert “, and listed in Schedule 1 on subjects which voters might (d) the Electoral Commission have issued a certificate stating find of little interest or importance. An example might whether or not it appears to them that more than 40 per be a change in the method of voting for the appointment cent of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum of advocates-general of the European Court of Justice. have voted in it. Such a bizarre national referendum would probably 283 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 284 attract a miserable turnout. This amendment would example set by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who was give Parliament an opportunity to take stock. Alternatively, a colleague in the other place for many years and who, a future referendum might be about a serious treaty the House may remember, was also the author of the change or a group of changes. In Committee, the Rooker-Wise amendment on income tax legislation. Minister speculated that in the future this might be the So for the second time, although it is not like that case, although I personally consider it improbable, but Rooker-Wise legislation and his name does not even in any event there would clearly be a significant turnout appear on this amendment, I am glad to endorse his in such circumstances. This amendment does not affect wisdom, particularly when it is reinforced by the lucid, the mandatory nature of such a referendum decision. compact argument advanced by the noble Lord, Lord To conclude, this amendment would bring back a Williamson. It is the minimum we can do to exclude role for Parliament in those cases, and only in those the unreliability of this unattractive device. It should cases, where the British public had demonstrated their be in the hands of Parliament. This amendment enables lack of interest by a very low turnout in a referendum. it to come back into the hands of Parliament if certain I beg to move Amendment 5. conditions are not fulfilled. I speak in support of the amendment.

4.45 pm Lord Richard: My Lords, I speak in partial support Lord Howe of Aberavon: My Lords, I can add very of this amendment. I cannot say I am very enthusiastic little to the lucid presentation made by my noble about part of it, but nevertheless I agree with the friend Lord Williamson. I start from premises which I general thrust. Before I turn to the amendment, I have described to the House before. My first premise is would like to say how much I admire the noble and to regard referenda as unreliable things. The more learned Lord, Lord Howe, particularly his actions in complex the subject, the less reliable they become. I the 1950s in persuading the Conservative party in have said many times that the referenda which I have Wales to agree to a set of referendums on whether always been enthusiastic about were those which I was pubs should be open on Sundays. I say that because in able to introduce at a meeting of the Welsh area the valley where I was brought up there was a Labour council of the Conservative Party in the 1960s—namely, majority of 35,000, but the club with the biggest to determine, on a county basis and at seven-year membership of all was the local Conservative club. intervals, whether public houses should be open on Why? Because it was open on Sundays. He deserves to Sunday. That was put into law within a short time by be commended for his altruism, which deprived the Henry Brooke and remained there for 35 years, because Amman Valley’s Conservative party of a considerable after five seven-year lapses every county in Wales had amount of beer money. finally been liberated, Caernarvon being the last. My My Lords, I am not too keen on this amendment noble and learned friend Lord Morris was then able to for one reason. We have a figure which, if it is not repeal the legislation. Nobody can argue with that. reached, then prima facie at any rate the referendum Between 1974 and 1979, when I was on the opposition should not be valid. However, in those circumstances Benches in the other place and was able to do other where the turnout does not reach 40 per cent, the things, I was on the board of a company called AGB result is deemed to be valid because the matter will Research, which was one of the largest and most come back to Parliament and, if each House passes a effective market research companies in Europe, specialising resolution saying that, despite the turnout being under largely in the measurement of television and broadcasting 40 per cent, the measure should go through, then it audiences. The whole process depended on trying to will go through. I question the value of that. If you determine what people thought. In so far as we were have that in the Bill, it seems to me it is slightly dealing with quite simple things about broadcasting, it pointless having a 40 per cent plateau. If one is going was easy enough to decide. In so far as we were to have a figure that the turnout must reach for the measuring relative enthusiasm as between butter and referendum to be effective, why should Parliament margarine, we felt that we could rely on a referendum-style give the Government a second chance of getting their questioning and answering analysis. But unlike many policy through? If there is a condition that you must of our competitors, we were always clear that we have 40 per cent, surely if you get that 40 per cent the would never touch political opinion polls with a bargepole referendum is valid; if you do not, the logical conclusion because we felt that in that area, however well one is that the referendum is not valid. If it were as simple tried to do it, the outcome was likely to be less than as that, I would support the amendment entirely. On lucid and less than decisive. For that reason, throughout the other hand, I must say that if the amendment is this legislation I have been wholly lacking in enthusiasm one the House is prepared to accept, I would certainly for the introduction of referenda in substitute for go along with it rather than not have anything like it. decisions taken by Parliament. We have reached the point when referenda seem Lord Waddington: My Lords, I find the amendment likely to remain in legislation, but the least we can do rather strange. I certainly agree that a poor turnout is to try to make those referenda less ill founded than may be taken as complete lack of interest in having a they might otherwise be. If we do not prescribe a referendum on the issue, but a poor turnout certainly minimum along the lines suggested by the noble Lord, could not be taken as support for the measure in Lord Williamson, then we are at the mercy of decisions question. One must remember what sort of measures being taken by almost invisible percentage votes. I do we are talking about: these are measures that cede not regard there being much wisdom in a 40 per cent more power to the European Union. So if there is a referendum, but I am delighted to be able to follow an low turnout, the one thing that is absolutely certain—along 285 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 286

[LORD WADDINGTON] that they need, they also need the political will to use with the fact that there may be lack of enthusiasm in it, not to use a fig-leaf argument trying to bind a voting at all—is that there is minimum support for successor, in circumstances where they seem to be ceding more power to the EU. That seems to me to be predicting their imminent defeat at the next election. an absolutely rotten reason for handing the whole matter back to Parliament. Half the trouble at present, 5pm and the reason there is so much distrust over this whole area, is that people feel that, over the years, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: My Lords, I rise to support Parliament has been far too fast to cede more powers the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord to the EU. Williamson, which is a Tory amendment. I am surprised As I have said before, it seems extraordinary that to find myself sounding more Tory than the noble when the people give to our parliamentarians the Lord, Lord Waddington, which is a feat I had not opportunity to use certain specific powers they then expected to attempt. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, spend the whole of a Parliament handing over those comes from the West Country, and I suspect him of powers to other people. No wonder there is a lack of being a Burkean. At Second Reading, the noble Lord, understanding of what is being done in the people’s Lord Taverne, took us through John Locke. The Taverne name. It is pretty nonsensical to say that if there is a view against referenda was derived from Locke, and low turnout in the referendum, we should hand the he contrasted that with the evil Rousseau, who led the whole matter to Parliament, which is half the cause of French in the direction of referenda. I would have the trouble in the first place. After all, it is Parliament preferred to have dinner with Fox, but Burke impresses which the public feel, with fairly good evidence, cheated me on the role of Parliament. The reasons I support them of the opportunity of a referendum when Lisbon the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, turned up as a rehash of the European constitution. have nothing to do with the European Union; they That is one of the causes for the Bill. We are having a have to do with the position of Parliament. Bill now to try to rebuild some of the lost confidence Burke’s speech in 1774 was to the Bristol electors in the EU, and we should judge the amendment by who had just elected him. He had the guts to say: that problem. As far as I can see, the amendment “The wishes of the people should have great weight with their would add to the problem rather than reduce it. Representative, their opinion his high respect, their business his unremitted attention. It is his duty…to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened Lord Tomlinson: When I heard the noble Lord, conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to them…Yourrepresentative Lord Waddington, speak about nonsenses, that seemed [in Parliament] owes you, not only his industry, but also his to be a cue inviting me to participate in this debate. judgment; and he betrays you, instead of serving you, if he The noble Lord talked extensively about ceding powers sacrifices it to your opinion”. to Europe, but the very essence of the Bill is that the That seems to me to be the core of Tory philosophy on issues subject to referenda are issues that require parliamentary democracy. I agree with all that; it unanimity in the Council of Ministers. The Government seems to me to be 100 per cent correct. have every power that they need; they have only to say This Bill is a constitutional innovation. It says that no and by that process they can stop any ceding of once an Act of Parliament has been passed, it will be powers to Europe or anywhere else. They can deny struck down by the people if they say no in a referendum. unanimity. That is not what it is about. The idea that This is not the alternative vote referendum scenario. the Bill is the last bastion defending the rights of As Conservative noble Lords may remember, we did Englishmen, to stop his rights being transferred to not vote for the alternative vote; we voted for a referendum Brussels, is really the argument of the knave who on the alternative vote. In the case of this Bill, the knows better, because it does not do that at all. treaty amendments that would have been considered If we are to have what I believe to be nonsensical by Parliament, and the 57 varieties of decisions—the referenda inflicted on us, there has to be at least some baked beans can of decisions—that would have been measure to give a minimum standard of credibility to considered by Parliament would have been subject to the referenda. Like the noble Lord, Lord Richard, I Acts of Parliament. They would have received am not particularly happy about the amendment, parliamentary approval and then they would go to although I will support it. The idea of putting to a referenda. That is the first time, I think, that has referendum an issue where people can vote for or happened in our constitutional history. against does not really transfer sovereignty to the British people. I would far rather see a question with four options: “For”, “Against”, “Don’t know” and Lord Tebbit: I am grateful to the noble Lord for “Don’t care”. If we had that, considering some of the lecturing me on conservative principles. Does he think issues which will be subject to referenda, I suspect that that when Locke was making that speech— it would be a combination of “Don’t know” and “Don’t care”that would win in every case. The amendment Noble Lords: Burke! would not give us a great deal of protection, particularly as, as I said, power already rests in the hands of Ministers. If there is such a reluctance of Ministers to Lord Tebbit: Does the noble Lord think that he use the power that they already have, an honourable envisaged a day when Parliament would be transferring retreat is available from Government to the Back sovereign powers from the people of this country to Benches, so that they can continue their impotence those of another of country, to people who they could from there. When the Government have every power not elect and could not dismiss? 287 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 288

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: I am sure that Burke was Most sensible citizens are highly intelligent and not thinking of the situation of the EU Bill which is quite rightly regard subjects other than mere politics before us. The noble Lord is absolutely right. He may as far more important and crucial. I often do. I would have been thinking of a situation in Ireland which cite family and children, the local community, jobs developed in ways that bore some resemblance to that and job prospects, football and—even better—rugby, during his lifetime, but I am sure that when he was holidays, the kids’ results at school and music. Very addressing the Bristol electorate his concern was simply many of those things are more important than politics. with explaining to them how he saw the role of Parliament The public want to enhance political quality by leaving and the sovereignty of Parliament. It is because I the political decisions to their elected representatives, think that he was right about that that I think that we even if some of them in the other place are sometimes should vote for the amendment of the noble Lord, rather nerdy people, like Bill Cash or John Redwood. Lord Williamson, which I hope he will press to a vote. We have to remember the warning words of my noble It does not restore full parliamentary sovereignty, but friend Lady Williams when she spoke of the disastrous in a situation where—in his words—a derisory turnout example of California, which had become a bankrupt had voted, the question of whether Parliament’s will state as a result of excessive referendumitis and foolish should be overruled would be raised. That is a little bit populism. This amendment provides a pragmatic way of Burke that would be rescued from the mess of of making the results of referendum—if there has to Rousseau that we are in. be one—more respectable. I hope that this House will support it. Lord Dykes: I rise briefly to speak enthusiastically in support of this amendment and to thank the noble Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I wish that Lord, Lord Williamson, for his remarks—I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, would not describe people them all. I was, like others may be, a little startled who oppose his points of view in such terms as “nerds”. when the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, began to say It does not enhance debate and it is quite unnecessary that he rather agreed with the first part of the speech to lampoon one’s opponents. of the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. But I understand The amendment has a certain superficial attraction, what he was getting at. The beauty of the amendment but we need to be extremely careful what we do. If you is that it can appeal to a whole range of Members of say that a decision on an item on which a referendum this House in deciding, irrespective of their own particular is to be held can take effect only if 40 per cent of the views on the virtue of referendums, or referendumitis, electorate vote, you could say that about almost every or the danger of referendums, or whatever, that this election we have. People are elected to the House of would be a good way of making more respectable a Commons—certainly in by-elections—on a turnout of given referendum result with a turnout requirement— less than 40 per cent of those entitled to vote. Why on following the wisdom of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, earth should that be legitimate and a referendum on a in a totally different context—and would make sure matter which is to be transferred to European governance that we were not trivialising the exercise in a way that not be accepted? We have to be very careful not would disconcert the public in a big way. The beauty to create a precedent here which might be used in then is that, if the threshold is not reached, the power other circumstances that may be inconvenient to goes back to Parliament and the Government as the Parliament and certainly to local authorities, where noble Lord, Lord Waddington, would always wish. the turnout is very often far below the 40 per cent of On 5 April, in the early stages of the Committee of those entitled to vote. the whole House, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of The noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, talked about the Stamford, in referring to Schedule 1, said: various alternatives that might be put on the ballot “if we present to the electorate the sort of issues in Schedule 1 and paper. If you pass this amendment, there is another ask them … to turn out at the polls”— alternative which is that you can campaign for people in referendums— not to vote. That is good democracy, is it not? Or is it? “we are being not only completely unrealistic but deeply insulting If you encourage people not to vote to get the decision to them”.—[Official Report, 5/4/11; col. 1694.] you want, that is extremely bad democracy. I do not I have left out a few of the smaller words, but essentially want to delay the House any further, but I believe that that is what he said. before we vote we should be very careful about what The electorate would say that that is what they elect we are doing. parliamentarians to decide. We could easily have participation rates of less than 20 per cent, and we Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, the noble would return, therefore, to the Vernon Bogdanor example. Lord, Lord Williamson, as always, made a very careful I believe that this matter is important for parliamentarians and thoughtful speech which places me in a slightly in both Houses, but particularly here, as this House awkward position. I find it surprising that there is so has an opportunity to improve the Bill in a way that much enthusiasm for this amendment from those who government Ministers have already started to do with accuse the Government of obstructing the process their generous amendment. We must work hard to towards greater European integration. They have said restore public faith in the public’s ownership of first-rate that the Government have been putting locks on moves parliamentary standards of tradition, work and devotion towards further European integration. Here they are to the public good. My personal view is that I am very putting a padlock on the lock; they are putting another fearful of referendumitis and this Bill would deliver a obstacle in the way of European integration. Let us lot of it in the future if the situation were allowed to not forget that one will get a referendum only when get out of hand. the Government are proposing to acquiesce in a step 289 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 290

[LORD LAMONT OF LERWICK] be constitutional change, the vast majority of people towards European integration. Therefore, I find it a will want to feel that their voice is represented in the little strange that those who are enthusiastic about process. We owe that to them. I very much agree with more integration and think that the Government are the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that the 40 per cent being obstructionist about this want to put up another figure is arbitrary. It would be absurd in a local or obstacle. European election, when sometimes the figure drops I do not accept the argument of the noble Lord, below 40 per cent, to reject the result. That is not the Lord Williamson, that there is a danger that we will way we do things. We must remind ourselves that the have lots of referendums on trivial subjects such as the vast majority of people will want a referendum if number of advocates-general or the voting system for there is going to be an important transfer of powers to having advocates-general. There are several reasons, the European Union. which we went through in Committee, why we will not The AVreferendum showed us that on an important get a whole series of trivial referendums. First, these constitutional issue, the people of this country will be sorts of changes tend to come along in packages after fully engaged. They took it seriously and voted in major treaty revisions and we have been assured there great numbers. I have the greatest confidence that in a will not be major treaty revisions. It seems unlikely matter such as the one before us, the potential transfer that any one country is going to invest a huge amount of additional powers to the European Union, they will of political capital pressing for a change in the voting of course be very interested. Therefore, I feel that system for choosing advocates-general. If some power turnout would be quite high. has not been given to Brussels even after the Lisbon We must make sure that people feel that when they treaty and the Maastricht treaty—the series of vote, their vote counts and is decisive. Otherwise, it constitutional treaties we have had—if powers are left will destroy the point of the referendum. The referendum to individual countries, there is a very good reason for lock should be given without qualification; it is in the that. Obviously in previous negotiations countries have spirit of what the Bill is about. The fullest acceptance not wanted to cede those powers. The idea that we are of the referendum result voted by the people is something going to get a lot of referendums on trivial matters is that we should recognise. It is our duty as parliamentarians unrealistic and is a chimera. If that was the basis of to do so. the noble Lord’s argument I would not accept it. There are many subjects that are by no means trivial, such as Lord Flight: My Lords, I voted on two occasions for our borders and our criminal justice system, where it the Rooker amendment on AV. It is tempting to join would be wholly appropriate to have a referendum. the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, in taking the position That is why I am broadly a supporter of the Bill. that there may be a similar argument for supporting I said at the beginning that the noble Lord, Lord here an amendment that requires a 40 per cent turnout. Williamson, places me in a slightly awkward position However, the position is not at all analogous. In this because I was, as some of my noble friends will situation, the aim is to protect the people of this remember, a very strong supporter of the 40 per cent country from having the powers of their Parliament threshold for the referendum on AV. Indeed, I voted and Government further diluted it and given away, as twice against my party on it. I do not like to make personal has sadly happened in the recent past, with Parliaments comments but I got to my feet largely because of my breaking their word to citizens and acting in a way noble friend Lord Dykes, who I have known for many contrary to that which they promised—I refer, for years. On the AV question, my noble friend was a very example, to the recent Lisbon treaty. firm opponent of the 40 per cent threshold to which he has put his name on this occasion. As I am placed It is very clear that the Bill is there as a protection in an awkward position and he is also exposed in an for the British people, and it would be made meaningless awkward position, I am prepared to do him a deal. If if we said to them, “We are going to give you this lock he will not support this amendment, I will vote for it. and protection, but if less than 40 per cent of people vote, we will give power back to the Government of the day who command a majority in the House of 5.15 pm Commons”. It is not an analogous situation to changing Lord Risby: My Lords, it is worth pointing out that the voting system, where there were powerful arguments the referendum is now part of our political culture. requiring an adequate turnout. It is not a situation Indeed, it is not only part of our political culture, but that Burke would have supported in the slightest; he right across the European Union referendums are would have been absolutely against giving away the deployed to get people’s views. It is now a fundamental powers of the British Government and Parliament to part of the whole democratic process. However, the another organisation. Either we give citizens a meaningful potential effect of this amendment is to make the lock or we do not. Therefore, I feel no discomfort in referendum advisory. That is the point because if it is opposing these amendments, having supported the below 40 per cent the decision is referred back to Rooker amendment on AV; it is the whole point of the Parliament. The essence of that argument is that the Bill. result ceases to be mandatory and effectively becomes advisory. That destroys the whole point of the Lord Deben: My Lords, I find myself in disagreement reconnection process. with both my noble friend Lord Lamont and the noble We are trying through the Bill to reconnect the Lord behind him. I am opposed to referenda in any people of this country with the European Union. It is case and do not think that we should judge referenda, a big challenge. If we are going to re-engage people in even if we are in favour of them, by the particular that process we must recognise that, if there is going to amendment that is before us. We should judge referenda 291 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 292 as referenda. Therefore, to vote for a 40 per cent Let us look at this amendment. I have great sympathy division between compulsory and advisory on one for the view which the noble Lord, Lord Richard, subject and not to vote for it on another seems not to expressed. It seems to me that this is a very simple hang together. The issue is not about the European concept. We who are arguing for it have accepted that Union. Everyone knows where I stand on that. It is in our view, for bad reasons, we are going to have about an issue which comes from before that. Long referenda. We are unlikely to have a referendum on before there were these debates on the European Union, something trivial—I do not really agree with the noble there were debates about referenda. I enjoyed debating Lord, Lord Williamson; I think it will be likely to be them and I have not changed my view on them. on something of note. It will be on something which The parliamentary democracy which we have is the the Government have decided not to veto. It is going greatest gift which we have been able to give to the to be quite a rare occasion. It is going to be something world as a whole. Irrespective of the comments of my which the Government have presented to Parliament, noble friend Lord Risby, parliamentary democracy Parliament is going to vote for it, and it will then be and referenda do not go together, as a matter of fact. placed before the public. All we are saying is that if The one comes from a different tradition and I am not less than 40 per cent of the public think it worth while going to be one of those who besmirches the tradition voting, Parliament can reconsider the matter. It can by referring to the use of referenda by such people as take into account what the public have said and then Louis-Napoleon. That would be wrong. But referenda ask itself what should it do. do come from that tradition and not from our I finish by saying that I would say this about a parliamentary tradition. proposal for a referendum on something that I believed Therefore, I was much enlightened by the reminder my side would win in all circumstances. This is not a which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, gave us of the great matter about the subject; it is about the mechanism. It conservative thinker, Edmund Burke. He said that the is that which we should face. May I suggest to noble embarrassing fact of being a parliamentarian is that Lords that this House has got to do its duty in you do have, in the end, to make up your own mind, ensuring that when there is a major change, as the even though the popular press, the women’s advisory noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, we ensure that it is not committee of your association, the local doctors’ alliance one with unforeseen circumstances? All we are saying and a whole range of other people tell you that you is that if enough people vote, then it is mandatory; if have got it wrong. I remind noble Lords of what not enough people vote, it is advisory. That seems to happens if you take that away. It means that nobody me to be a sensible compromise, so I ask the Minister with a strong view on abortion, for example, would be to help those of us who find this Bill very difficult able to uphold his or her view in those circumstances. indeed and at least allow us to have this compromise, If he or she were to follow the views of the electorate, which is in the best tradition of British parliamentary he or she would not be able to uphold what he or she democracy. thought was a moral position. The same would be true about capital punishment. No one would have voted Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, seldom have I against capital punishment if they had listened to the been made glummer than I have been made by the average elector over the past 30 or 40 years. speech of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and indeed, by Let us not be too easily lulled into that simple the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, and those concept of the referendum now being part of our who tabled this amendment. They have encapsulated democratic heritage. Referenda have always been used—I perfectly the disdain of the political class for the say this as a committed Conservative—in a way which people of this country. has tended to favour those who take a very conservative attitude. My noble friend takes a very conservative A noble Lord: That includes you. attitude, so I am happy to give way to him. Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I am indeed a member of Lord Tebbit: May I assume, therefore, that in defence the political class, but I think I see it perhaps with of parliamentary sovereignty and all that of which he more objectivity than those who tabled this amendment. has been speaking, my noble friend will assert the If your Lordships’ House has a vote and less than 40 right of Parliament, and none other, to decide whether per cent turn out for it, the result is still valid. If 10 per prisoners should have any voting rights at all? Will he cent of your Lordships’ House votes, perhaps rather be on side in this matter or will he defer to some late at night, the result is still valid. agency outside Parliament? I say that those who tabled this amendment really do not understand the disdain of the people of this Lord Deben: I am always worried when my noble country for the political class, and that disdain is friend intervenes upon me but I am very pleased on justified. Look at the position into which our political this occasion to say that I agree with him entirely. This class has led this country over the past 50 years—since is an issue for Parliament and Parliament should make Suez, perhaps, and we got that wrong. Our children up its own mind—I have no doubt about that at all. cannot learn to read; our prisons are overflowing with He need not worry. I am a great defender of Parliament. the illiterate; our hospitals are dirty; we are failing the But I ask this House not to allow itself to get into the old, most of whom end their lives in misery and situation which the Swiss got into. After all, Switzerland loneliness; our streets are dangerous; our transport was the last country in Europe to allow women to is creaky; our police are overburdened and vote. Why was that? Every time they passed it in overbureaucratised; even our Armed Forces are being Parliament, it was the referenda which defeated it. I asked to do too much with too little, and their morale ask noble Lords to be very careful about this. is beginning to crack; immigration is out of control; 293 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 294

[LORD PEARSON OF RANNOCH] I would prefer the political parties and other groups Islamism is on the march; and our economy is in involved in campaigning for referendums to engage terrible trouble, the pain of which will, of course, be with the public, rather than there being a threshold visited upon the people. I think the British people are which, as others have mentioned, could skew the result. justified in thinking very ill of their political class. You may get not just the “don’t knows” and the “don’t Noble Lords may remember that for about two cares” referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, minutes last year I was the leader of the UK Independence but those who do not support the motion actively Party and, rather against my will, we consulted focus being asked not to vote in order to skew the result. groups, which I always think should be completely Then the public debate becomes about voting and not unnecessary. Even I was surprised by the answer to the about the issue. That would be wrong. question about what people thought about the political The contrast between these two types of referendum class. Every class of the British people in every area of is striking. In the first, a real referendum resulting in this country said that they regarded the political class engagement with the public undoubtedly has helped not with dislike, not with disdain, not with distrust, the public’s perception. The 1975 EU referendum not even with anger, but with hatred. I believe that our benefited the perception and understanding of the EU system of representative parliamentary democracy, for many years. But in Scotland there was a real which those who tabled this amendment and the leaders contrast and, as I have mentioned, serious damage is of our political class like so much, is no longer supported still there. by the people, and therefore has broken down. Finally, last year, the Lords Constitution Committee Do not let us forget that up to the 19th century and stated that there should be, the early 20th century most people in this country “a general presumption against the use of voter turnout thresholds could not read, so it was reasonable to send representatives and super-majorities”. to Westminster to take decisions for them. But now Let us heed that sage advice and not support the people can read. On the whole, they are very much amendment. more sensible than the people who represent them and they want referendums. They want referendums not Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I find that I only on the European Union but perhaps across the am afflicted by the quite well known advice once given board, which might be the only way to reconnect to me by the Whips. It was, “Never listen to the debate the people with their democracy. I believe that their on any issue”. When I saw this amendment I was decisions—even if only 15 per cent of them turn out to rather dismayed because, as my noble friend Lord vote—will be very much wiser than those of our failed Lamont pointed out, it replicates exactly the proposal political class. Therefore, I oppose these amendments. which he, I and others put forward on the AVreferendum. I found myself thinking, “Now I have got to be against this because I am against Europe taking more powers 5.30 pm from Britain. How am I going to reconcile this in my Baroness Brinton: My Lords, I shall speak specifically mind?”. My noble friend Lord Deben has been very on the 40 per cent threshold and will start by reaffirming helpful in this regard because it is not about the issue the point made by other noble Lords on these amendments of European powers or the role of the European going against the Government’s objective of re-engaging Community. It is about the relationship between with the British people, particularly on major EU Parliament and referendum. issues about transfer of power and competency. I want I am going to upset a number of my noble friends to reassert the coalition’s intentions on referendums in by being on an unpredictable side in this argument. other parts of our life. The Localism Bill, which we My noble friend Lord Risby said that it is now part of discussed yesterday, has many arrangements in place the culture in Europe to have referenda. I am rather for referendums. alarmed by that, because we have a parliamentary It might be helpful to remind the House of the democracy. I support this Bill in its intention, which is other referendum that took place a couple of months to give the people a say before a power is transferred, if ago. I am not referring to the AV referendum but the that should happen. It seems very dangerous to get one in King’s Lynn about an incinerator. After a into a position where we have what is a constitutional strong campaign against a local incinerator, the turnout innovation—the concept of drop-dead referenda. The was 61 per cent. It was interesting that there was a moment the vote is cast, that is it. It has become division between a county council view and a district enshrined in law and Parliament no longer has a say. council view about whether there should be such an That is a new concept which has crept into our incinerator. The county council view ignored the will constitution. When we joined the European Union, of the people. I am afraid that my Conservative colleagues we did not have a referendum of that form. The and my noble friends on these Benches suffered some Scottish referendum, with all due respect to my noble significant defeats in the local elections. Nine councillors friend, was not of that form, either. Parliament was were rejected because the people felt that their voice still in control and had the final say. My noble friend had not been heard after they had been allowed to give Lord Deben has been consistent throughout all the it. We miss that opportunity at our peril. I have given time I have known him in his opposition to referenda. that specific example because, in Committee, I raised I am not against referenda but they must be supported the issue of the Scottish referendum in 1979 after which by a substantial group. We could argue about whether there was a significant disconnect. It has taken many 35 per cent or 40 per cent or 50 per cent is the right years to address it. Some would argue that there is still number, but there ought to be a clear view expressed a legacy of distrust between Westminster and Scotland. by the people. 295 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 296

Perhaps I may take up an earlier point. I know number of occasions. But a package is particularly nothing about the incinerator but I have been involved unsuitable to the referendum process. Let us suppose in public life long enough to know that if you want to that some people in the country are passionately concerned put an incinerator anywhere, you are going to get a about joining the European public prosecutor’s office, majority in a referendum against it. That is why we while others are passionately concerned not to have an have elections and that is why we have Parliament. It is extra judge in the European Court of Justice. Yet in order to take difficult decisions, which, as my noble others may be very concerned about not having a new friend has said, may very well be unpopular. So I am protocol for the deficit procedure. All those issues may rather inclined to support this amendment for that be part of a package. Which way should people vote if reason. It seems to be consistent in supporting the they are in favour of one and against another? What constitutional principles which this House should be should they do? It makes a nonsense of any sort of concerned about. Tempted as I am by the expediency referendum. of the case, I think that argument ought to prevail. The second point I want to make is that if this amendment is not passed, we are likely to be left with Lord Hamilton of Epsom: In supporting this referendums on some of these minor matters. Are they amendment, is my noble friend comfortable with the really going to bind this country closer to Europe and concept of a turnout of less than 40 per cent, which is reconnect the public with Brussels? Are they going to therefore null, and a no vote by a narrow majority? make Brussels more popular? Of course it is a result Bearing in mind that the Government will have instigated that I do not necessarily approve of, but would it not this referendum because they want a yes vote, if they make referenda less and less popular with the public? get a no vote by a narrow majority and the House of That brings me to my last point. The noble Lord, Commons reverses it to a yes vote, is my noble friend Lord Kerr, referred to Burke. I should like to comment comfortable with that idea, because that is what he is on that since I was the first person to bring Burke into advocating? the argument. In his doctrine, Burke says that the will of the people should always prevail; it is the anti-Rousseau Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I am not advocating argument. What is interesting is that while there have that at all. It would be a matter for the House of been some tests of it, although only a very few, they Commons to decide. The House of Commons and suggest that Burke is actually quite popular. I shall this House would have to take account of the nature give two examples. In my speech at Second Reading, I of the campaign and the strength of the vote and the referred to a by-election in which I resigned on an arguments that are put forward. The pressure of a issue over which I was unpopular in the sense that a referendum in itself, however big the turnout, will be a local poll showed a majority of three to two against major factor in the considerations which are taken by our joining the European Community. But I argued the elected Members. I am not comfortable with the for the principle of Burke that I was entitled to exercise idea of cutting Parliament out when there may have my judgment, and Burke prevailed by a substantial been a low turnout. By the way, I was also not comfortable majority. I can give another example. One of my with accepting these arguments when I rejected them neighbours where I lived until recently was a Conservative not many weeks ago in the context of having a threshold MP I greatly respected. He was the late Norman on the AV referendum. Miscampbell, who was a Member for Blackpool. Many people will remember that a police superintendent was Lord Taverne: My Lords, I want to make three murdered in that town, and a campaign was launched short points. First, I refer to the argument of the noble by his widow to restore the death penalty for the Lord, Lord Waddington, who always argues his case murder of a policeman. It had overwhelming support with great force and effectiveness. However, on this in Blackpool, but Norman Miscampbell, on principle occasion, it seemed rather strange. He said that if and very bravely taking the Burke view, voted against there is a low vote, it simply proves the lack of enthusiasm the restoration of the death penalty. His fellow for the European Community and the fact that people Conservative MP in Blackpool, the late Peter Blaker, will not vote is equivalent to a no vote. The circumstances, supported the petition and voted in favour of it. At the as has just been pointed out, will be whether the next election, Norman Miscampbell’s vote increased Government support a change in the law. Suppose the by somewhat more than that of Peter Blaker. Burke is next Government are a Conservative Government. not unpopular. When they reflect on it, people think it They are not likely to make a major transfer of powers very reasonable that Members of Parliament should to Brussels. On some of these minor matters in Schedule 1, exercise their own judgment and not act as puppets. they might see the advantage in not having a veto and make that part of their case. If there is a very low vote, Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, perhaps I it is a toss up as to which way it will go, but a 10 per may make a few remarks in support of this amendment. cent vote in favour of a transfer of power and 9 per I find some of the arguments that have been used cent against is a quite a likely result. In effect, the against it quite bizarre. The noble Lord, Lord Risby, argument put by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, is said that the vast majority of people in this country that it makes a transfer of power more likely. want these referendums. If so, he has nothing to fear The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, says that it is not from the amendment. If the vast majority of people in likely that there would be an individual vote on some this country want referendums, more than 40 per cent of the minor matters set out in Schedule 1 because of them will vote when a referendum question is put, they would be packaged, which is also what the noble and this Bill, as amended, will then provide mandatory and learned Lord, Lord Howe, has told us on a outcomes. It has been suggested that this is all about 297 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 298

[LORD HANNAY OF CHISWICK] All noble Lords who have commented on the engaging with the British people, but if we cannot get imperative of parliamentary democracy and Parliament’s 40 per cent of the people to vote, is that not a failure to primacy are, of course, absolutely right. I think that it engage with the British people? Surely that is precisely is Clause 18 of the Bill that, for the first time ever in what it is, which is why having a threshold makes sense. many generations in Parliament, absolutely clearly I argue that we should not go down the primrose defines that it is only through the primacy of Parliament path of thinking that the referendum fashion is sweeping that EU legislation can be accepted at all. It is our across Europe. First, we are not talking about Europe; responsibility. The noble Lord, Lord Waddington, we are talking about Britain. I do not see why we made the point in his very thoughtful intervention—and should accept that argument as valid in our case. In I fully support this—that we have been far too fast in any case, I have a strong feeling that most people who ceding power from this Parliament to the European have supported referendums around Europe now bitterly Union. However, I would perhaps remind him that regret it. In the most recent one, last weekend, the that is our responsibility, certainly in the House of Slovenians voted against raising the pensionable age Commons and Government but also, to a much lesser to something quite a long way below the pensionable extent, here. The noble Lord, Lord Roper, is in his age in this country; not, I would have thought, a very place, representing the several generations of outstanding sensible thing to have happened—something rather work by EU sub-committees in your Lordships’ House. like the incinerator case, I suspect. I am very much in That has not been the case in the House of Commons, the same group as the noble Lords, Lord Deben and which has let slip piece after piece of legislation pouring Lord Forsyth. It is not a very good idea to have these in from Brussels. Indeed, it is the Ministers of the day, referendums. The Government could quite easily have from every single Government—from the previous avoided most of the petty referendums by drawing up Government and the ones before that—that have fed a much simpler Bill, but they chose to throw in the the House of Commons so little material that somehow kitchen sink. Given that, the case for a threshold is it has unwittingly, or in some other mode, let through really rather compelling and I therefore support the all of this legislation and the growing burden of all amendment. these regulations which are, I believe, oppressing the peoples of the European Union and particularly the 5.45 pm peoples of the United Kingdom. Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Before the noble Lord This modest Bill, although it is relatively lightweight, sits down, does he accept that the power of the Executive does contain two or three very important points, the has got much stronger in the House of Commons? We first of which I believe is the primacy of Parliament all talk here about parliamentary democracy in terms over EU legislation and therefore surely over the outcome of the other place, but how many times have the of any referendum. It also gives the wonderful possibility Government actually been defeated over the past 20 years? of a downhill-driven knowledge base to the British people and some small modicum of authority over Lord Hannay of Chiswick: It is not the time of night what will happen. I very much support the Bill because to go into a lengthy disquisition on British constitutional of those two points. history, but we still live in a representative parliamentary Coming back to Burke, to the point that was raised democracy and we still accept that a Government who in the context of representative parliament, I cannot have a majority in the House of Commons can make help but comment, because the flavour comes through laws. However, we are seeking to contradict that with so strongly, that some of the arguments that noble this provision. The amendment that is being moved is Lords are putting forward tend to resonate with those a small, modest palliation of that. of us whose female forebears fought for the vote for women. In other words, somehow some elements of Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: This amendment the population are not fit to bring their judgment to is not in fact about the absolute underpinnings of this bear on important matters affecting the United Kingdom. Bill, although it is a very tempting set of red herrings It is difficult. Burke, of course, was wonderful, but that have been laid in front of your Lordships’ House. before him and at his day women did not have the This set of amendments is about whether or not there vote. Academics had more than their current bundle should be a 40 per cent threshold and, with your of votes per person, so did the landed gentry, so did Lordships’ permission, I would like to comment purely the aristocracy; well, wonderful, but today is different. on that point. One of the key differences is that today we have The 40 per cent threshold seems to me, as a former modern technology. Only the day before yesterday I Member of Parliament and of the European Parliament, had five e-mails, no less, from the great Steve Jobs to be a rather odd thing for noble Lords to be considering himself urging me to discard my newly purchased today. We do not have a 40 per cent threshold in the iPhone and my iPad of the week before last in favour general election or in the European election, for example. of iCloud, where all my data are going to be parked We are perfectly comfortable with assuming that 50 per for ever and a day. Modern people, men, women and cent of those who come out to vote is the threshold on children of all backgrounds, all income brackets, all of which the electorate are exercising their wisdom. I find us—I leave aside prisoners because I do not want to it extremely difficult to see why, just for this Bill, some interfere with the debate between two prominent powerful noble Lords are so adamantine in their perception members of the Conservative Party on that one—all that a 40 per cent threshold—and no less—is the those people have knowledge now, absolute knowledge, absolute minimum they will accept if a referendum is just as much as we do, and they have time, they have to give a valid answer from the British people. energy, they get involved. 299 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 300

My noble friend Lord Dykes commented that—despite 40 per cent is a pretty modest figure when looking at a the absence of cricket in his tremendous tour de force level of legitimacy for changes that profound. None of commenting on what the British public are interested the less, it was an attempt to say that there should be in—the British people trust their political representatives some authority for the decision, and that the figure to make political judgments on their behalf. Noble gave at least that degree of authority. One of the Lords know full well that the British public have no arguments adduced at the time was that in the commentary trust in any politician at all at the moment, although I on the turnout in local elections, in particular, dipping believe that they have greater trust in your Lordships’ below 40 per cent, as it often did, people made very House than in the other place. What they do have severe criticisms of the quality of our democratic life. confidence in is the knowledge that they take, albeit When it was higher than that, people tended to think it false knowledge, from Wikipedia, from iCloud and was healthy. I do not want to say that that seems to be from other data that are now so readily available the key reason. I just make the point that on turnouts 24 hours a day and which people take, commandeer of less than 40 per cent, results were routinely disparaged. and use. Therefore, they want to be involved; they are Anybody looking back over the press and other able to be involved; they are knowledgeable about commentary at the time would come to same conclusion. being involved and that is why the heart of the Bill is a The constitutional debates in this House were good idea. interesting. Many of your Lordships said that once The 40 per cent threshold is a very odd idea, unless the decision is taken in a referendum we should not try we are going to carry it right forward into the European to second-guess the electorate. They will have spoken, Parliament, into the general election, into local elections, however small the turnout and however profound the presumably—we can have a dismal turnout, yet we issue. None the less, they will have spoken. That was respect the council that is elected none the less and the never a convincing reason not to look at the prospect mayors that are elected, if they are. I expect that there of some threshold. That is why I agree so strongly with will be a pretty low turnout if we have elected police, the noble Lord, Lord Deben. Unfortunately, we look for example. So we do accept that low turnout and we at it from where we are now, with this legislation in take just over a 50 per cent threshold as a majority. front of us. That is the way in which our parliamentary system The reason why I assert that we may be in a slightly works, that is the way in which our electoral system different position now is that most of the arguments works. I can see no rationale, no reasonable argument that my noble friend Lord Rooker produced are still that has been laid in front of your Lordships’ House very good. However, the argument today has a slightly so far this afternoon, which tells me that I should different salience. It has been argued that, in relation support this set of amendments. These referenda will to Europe, the people of this country have felt be few and far between—probably once every 10 years disenfranchised. That may well be true; I do not if the European Union actually proposes a further particularly choose to argue that it is not the case. transfer of sovereign power, which at the moment is They may well resent having had less say than they highly unlikely. It is busy with the euro, it is busy with believed they should. What is needed in these the superabundance of enlargement; it is not going to circumstances may be the indelible mark of people’s propose anything very important for the moment on approval for changes that might have a significant these grounds. Maybe once every 10 or 15 years there effect on their lives. I can see that. If it is true that we will be a referendum. Is this of such profound significance need that new kind of indelible mark, let us make sure that it outweighs the normal way in which we vote in that it is a credible mark, which has some authority general elections? I think not. The logic is against it and dignity and has not gone through on very small because the Bill says that the primacy of the British figures. Parliament overrides everything coming from Brussels The reason why I believe that this is significantly in any case. I oppose the amendments. different from the arguments about, for example, local elections, and different—with the greatest respect to Lord Triesman: It has been a long debate and I former Members of the European Parliament—from suspect that there has been a very full review of most European parliamentary elections, is this. of the issues. I am very pleased to be associated with the noble Lords, Lord Williamson and Lord Dykes, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, in this Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: I was merely amendment. I also find myself in very strong agreement making the general point that 50 per cent-plus is our with the noble Lords, Lord Deben and Lord Forsyth. normal modus operandi. It is impossible to see why it I too have been thinking about Burke. It may completely should be any different for this referendum. destroy any prospect of my ever sitting successfully on these Benches again, but the reality is that those are Lord Triesman: My Lords, the argument for 50 per the key arguments. cent plus has been widely canvassed recently among There was such strong support for my noble friend the people of the United Kingdom, who formed a Lord Rooker’s original concept of thresholds and the very clear view of it, which I agree with. I make this feed-through to the parliamentary system—there are point because it goes to the heart of the difference that some differences here that I shall explore in a moment— we are discussing. The difference seems to be that because it was felt strongly that when there were to be Parliament will have taken a decision to put the matter significant changes to our constitution or the arrangements to the electorate. The question is: what size or degree under which we are governed, there ought to be a of opposition should there be before Parliament is demonstrable degree of legitimacy. Goodness knows, overridden and its decision—the decision that has 301 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 302

[LORD TRIESMAN] Noble Lords: No. been advocated by the Government of the day—set aside? The decision that forms the fundamental proposition being put to the people will have been Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I will make the point of argued for from government Benches, and may well order whether there are interruptions from other parts have been argued for from opposition Benches as well, of the House or not. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, before it ever gets to the point where it is put to the said that we had had enough of this debate and that, people. The constitutional innovation is that people when he got up, no other noble Lord would be able to are being asked to set aside whatever Parliament, and speak. This is not in accordance with the Companion indeed whatever the Government that they have elected, to the Standing Orders and Guide to the Proceedings have said. This is a very profound difference from any of the House of Lords. If noble Lords turn to arrangement that we have seen at any time in the paragraph 8.139, on page 152, they will see that, as United Kingdom. long as the House accepts that they should do so, noble Lords may speak until the Minister gets up. 6pm After this, there shall be no speeches. However, before the Minister or spokesman gets to his or her feet, with On major issues there can be little question but that the permission of the House, any Member of the there should be a proper referendum. The euro has House may speak been mentioned. The view of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, commands great respect from me. I agree with him that borders, taxation, law and order and the Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, if the noble examples that he gave are significant issues. This is Lord, Lord Stoddart, is correct, as I have got up, this why, in Committee, a number of noble Lords—myself debate now comes to a close. included—have said that, were they in Government, As always, it has been a fascinating debate with they would have the confidence to just say no and many profound remarks. It has predominantly been a spare everybody the problem of going through any debate about referenda, but I do not agree with the kind of referendum. Why would we change our law noble Lord, Lord Williamson, that the debate has and order? Why would we relax what we regarded as a been entirely separate from the Bill. Speaking as one proper defence of our borders? What Government of the, I suspect, rather few ex-Ministers who have who took genuine responsibility would do that? Just taken a referendum Act through the other place in the say no. The respect of the people of the United distant past—the Northern Ireland referendum Bill—I Kingdom, seeing a Government who said no in these suppose that, in the eyes of my noble friends Lord areas, would be profoundly greater than any other Deben and my noble and learned friend Lord Howe, I kind of mechanism designed to achieve the same am damned before I start. result. Nevertheless, let me set out one or two of the Parliament is the proper representative place. Should arguments that have perhaps not been exposed as there be an unconvincingly small turnout, which does clearly as they should. We know that the purpose of not have what I have described as authority, Parliament these amendments is to include a minimum turnout should, and people will expect Parliament to, fulfil its threshold for any referendums arising as a result of the proper role. If the result of the election were below Bill. If the threshold is not met, regardless of the 40 per cent, Parliament might very well conclude that result, hey presto, the referendum would become advisory the decision was still in the best interests of the people and not mandatory. This proposition has a whole of the United Kingdom and use the authority it was string of disadvantages, which are not all obvious but elected to use. It might on the other hand conclude become clear if you think about them. First, as many that it should not do so. This is the nature of a of your noble Lords have pointed out, instead of it parliamentary debate and a decision taken on the being mandatory on the Government, it leaves the balance of all the issues concerned. British people in real doubt about what the effect of The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, also described this as their vote will be. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, is a constitutional innovation. I have tried to describe incidentally entirely wrong that it will be mandatory why I believe that is the right description. It is a on Parliaments; it will be mandatory on Governments, constitutional innovation of a very profound and though it is true that Governments often, but not difficult kind, and one born of the fear of taking always, control Parliaments. However, this goes by the responsibility for taking difficult decisions ourselves board if we pass the amendment. It will be the end of as parliamentarians. Of course there are the issues the British people’s mandatory certainty and they will that should be put before the people of the Untied be back where they started, passing the ball back to Kingdom; I hope that I have illustrated what those Parliament and the party and Government controlling might be. Alongside this are those instances where it is parliament. This is where the record has, frankly, not quite right that Parliament and the Government of been brilliant or reassuring. This is one of the reasons the day should say no. In light of this Bill, this amendment why we are facing these problems. stands as the optimum extent to which it is possible to We have the glorious assertions of excellent and defend the historic role of Parliament and to ensure eloquent spokesmen like the noble Lords, Lord Tomlinson that the responsibility of Parliament is not given away and Triesman, that the only need is for the Government in needless circumstances. to say no. However, they have not said no. They have said yes, when many people have felt that this yes was Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, before the the wrong and inappropriate proposition. The fear is Minister gets up, I have a point of order. that, now that we have said yes to Lisbon, we have said 303 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 304 yes about handing many important powers to the that anything decreed by Governments in Parliament European Union. We work with the European Union will be immediately accepted—it will not. Secondly, and believe that they should have powers. However, the point has rightly been made that thresholds of this will it be a no or yes in future? The doubt remains. The type encourage game playing during a referendum doubt must be removed. The reassurance is not there. campaign rather than a proper presentation of the For the vast majority of the people, the call is for the arguments to achieve a desired result. For example, if reassurance to be there. Though the noble Lord, Lord supporters of the yes campaign know that Parliament Pearson, will not agree with me, I suspect that the vast supports the treaty change in question, they have a majority in this country want us to be good Europeans huge incentive to keep the vote down below 40 per and to be effective in Europe and effective in allowing cent rather than going out and making the case for Europe to use—and not have us unravel—its vast change. range of existing competences. They are, however, Thirdly, the Government believe that we should worried as to whether it will be a yes or a no in future. encourage public participation rather than providing The noble Lords do not seem to have grasped this reasons for keeping that down. We could wish that the central point. It is simply not right to lead people in internet age had never occurred and that the days of doubt about what their role will be. It leaves them with massive and wide public consultation had not developed, a doubt—a dangerous doubt—about whether they but they have. As my noble friend Lady Nicholson will be listened to, about the lack of clarity and about rightly pointed out, are we saying that local elections whether their views will count. are not legitimate? We can wave a hand and say that The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, brought us back to they are different but that is just an assertion. I do not Edmund Burke. I love Burke. He is one of my favourites. think that they are all that different. Are we saying However, he is not particularly my favourite when he that the European parliamentary elections are not warned that democracy only works if, as he put it, legitimate? What does it do to the trust in the body there is a policeman within each one of us. It is slightly politic if a majority have voted no in the referendum different from the proposition about parliamentary but Parliament decided, because it has the power to do democracy. We all know perfectly well that Burke was so, to go ahead anyway? That would be extremely not operating in today’s situation. He perhaps did not damaging. foresee the iron discipline of party politics, where Fourthly, the Lords Constitution Committee, to some parties get a complete grip on Parliament. Has which some of my noble friends referred, in its wisdom—it the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, recently read—or ever is a very wise committee—shares opposition to thresholds. read—Lord Hailsham on elected dictatorship? In it he Its report on referendums in the UK concluded that, would find a heavy antidote to the glorious idealism of “there should be a general presumption against the use of voter the Burkean age, in which the noble Lord, Lord Deben, turnout thresholds and supermajorities”. and Mr Burke could speak out to their conscience Thresholds are bound to distance voters from the freely unaware of any party restraints. I have spent issues on which the British people want to have their 31 years in the other place and I am afraid that every say. Incentives to campaign to abstain would be vastly day I was aware of party restraints. increased. I cannot see that this 40 per cent threshold would There is a further question. During our first days in reconnect the British people with the decisions being Committee on the Bill, the wise noble Lord, Lord taken in their name at the EU level; it certainly would Kerr, said that during the debates on the EEC Referendum not do so. These devices do not serve to solve the Act 1975, the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher—then problem, as astutely identified by a great many Margaret Thatcher—had objected to the possibility of commentators day after day on the radio or in the the referendum being mandatory. She also said: newspapers. I see that my brief refers to the BBC’s Europe editor, who said the other day that, “The Government might regard themselves as bound, but the result could not fetter the decision of Parliament”.—[Official “Across Europe voters feel insecure, suspicious of an elite with Report, Commons, 11/3/1975; col. 315.] its own vision of an ever closer union but which doesn’t necessarily address their hopes or fears”. That, of course, is exactly our point. That is why I fear that the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, is wrong. These I would hope that this wise House of Lords, where we referenda, or the referendum that might occur—I think wear our party allegiances somewhat more lightly, that it will occur only once every few years, but I will would support efforts to resolve this concern and to come to that in a moment—are mandatory on see the European Union on a more solid basis than, government. That is the whole point of the Bill. However, frankly, it is today, not only for lack of popular they are not mandatory on Parliament. They cannot support but because it is facing very serious policy be. Parliament’s view of the treaty will be taken during issues as well. For those of us who want to build a the passage of legislation for the referendum. If Parliament better relationship between the British people and the did not support the treaty, it would not pass the EU and, indeed, people generally and the EU right legislation, so Parliament has its say and remains across the 27 countries—soon to be 28 or more—I supreme in every sense. would have thought that this is the way to go. By the same token, the amendment before us undermines that whole aim of the Bill. That is the first 6.15 pm point which must be taken into account and cannot be YourLordships will recall that this issue was discussed dismissed, unless those who do so think that popular extensively during the first day of the Committee stage support and consensus are irrelevant, do not arise and and noble Lords raised important issues on the need, that parliamentary wisdom is so entrenched and admired or not, for turnout thresholds. There is nothing in this 305 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 306

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] but he played that down. He added that passerelles Bill which would bind this or any future Parliament were in any case “difficult to use” for the simple reason from legislating, notwithstanding the provisions of that, the Bill, or disapplying the provisions of the legislation “everybody’s got to agree that some of them are going to be or legislating contrary to the will expressed by the outvoted”. electorate in a referendum. The principle of parliamentary I thought that those were wise words on the reality of sovereignty clearly means that this or any future whether we are going to see a dribble of small referenda Parliament could legislate contrary to the referendum and small changes or whether in fact, as is far more outcome if it so wished, although it would have to account likely, we are going to see an established pattern of to the British electorate for its reasons for doing so. changes coming into a large treaty, which will have That also goes to the heart of the question on good and bad bits in it. Just as the electorate has to whether holding referendums in this area is a major choose at election time between the good and bad bits constitutional change, as some of your Lordships have of party manifestos, so they would have to make that asserted. The recent nationwide referendum on the choice with regard to the next Lisbon treaty, Budapest voting system for the House of Commons showed that treaty, or whatever it might be called. I do not think where an issue is important, people will turn out to there is any comparison at all with the small referenda vote. The Government believe that the issues covered we have had in the past—perhaps not the one that I by the referendum lock in the EU Bill are not the took through Parliament and certainly not the one on trivial ones that noble Lords keep asserting. They are Sunday opening hours in Wales. That seemed to me—if highly important and sensitive. They involve the red I may be forgiven the word, but it has been used—an lines and major issues that have been central to British absurd comparison. I agree with my noble friend Lord politics and, indeed, the politics of the European Lamont that this pattern of little referenda on little Union, for decades and are vastly important to the items is utterly implausible. I think the evidence that British people, successive Governments and Parliament. Sir John Grant gave to the Commons European Scrutiny I challenge those who try to diminish them or assert Committee is far more convincing and based on recent that they are trivial to argue that proposition in a and deep understanding of how the Brussels system public forum. I do not believe that it can be sustained. actually works today. For all those reasons, I would urge the noble Lords, We do not have a “magic bullet” in terms of ensuring despite the superficial attractions of 40 per cent—and a high turnout. We expect both sides of the debate to they are very superficial—to understand its grave make the strongest possible cases to encourage voters disadvantages. The amendment aims at the very heart to express their views. However, what noble Lords are of the Bill and undermines a lot of the causes that proposing in this amendment would almost certainly many of us hold dear about the positioning of this ensure that the turnout, and the British people’s faith country in the 21st century. That being so they would in Parliament, would suffer. To that extent it would be be wise to withdraw their amendments. a highly negative move if the amendment were passed. Given the importance of the issues to which we have applied the referendum provisions in the Bill—they Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, it is traditional are very important—the people should be given a real to say we have had a wide-ranging debate. On this say. occasion it is true. When I put the amendment forward, I know that this House has supported, and given a I hoped I would get a measure of support from majority vote to, 40 per cent thresholds in the recent different parts of the House. I have done that, but of past. However, when comparing this Bill with the AV course there has been a good measure of disagreement vote Bill and the subsequent referendum, I would as well. I have also succeeded in doing something I did point out that this is not a matter of opinion, as in the not set out to do: I have clearly split the Conservative AV case, but of a treaty or a reduction in sovereign Party and the Liberal Democrats. That will, perhaps, powers which has to be ratified. That is what would give me a reward in heaven, although I will go on a come before the British people. A decision has to be little longer to say that I will be first to have a reward reached and to take that decision away from the here in the Chamber. people and give it back to Ministers—that is what an I would like to make one or two very brief points. advisory referendum would do—may appeal to some The first is that this amendment comes forward because but it is flatly against the aims of this Bill, against the of circumstances that have been dictated by the restoration of public confidence in the European Union Government’s Bill. They are nothing whatever to do and against the spirit of our times. with a blank space about how we are going to deal I do not believe that there is any great appetite in with Europe. We have a Bill on the table that potentially any of the 27 countries of the Union—shortly to be introduces more than 50 referenda. I do not think we 28 and perhaps more—for treaty changes, let alone for will get those, but in any event what is happening in veto surrenders. I was very impressed by the wise the near future, to which the Minister referred, is not evidence of Sir John Grant, who was our permanent relevant because the Government is not going to take representative in Brussels for four years up to 2007, in this action during the current Parliament. the post-Lisbon phase, which, incidentally, was totally What we are discussing is what sort of referendum different from the pattern of developments in Brussels regime we want to build into our constitution for the before Lisbon. He commented on the possibility of a medium term and what role we think Parliament referendum taking place in the next five years on a should play in that. I think Parliament should play move from unanimity voting to QMV by passerelle, some part, particularly in those cases where the British 307 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 308 public has shown a complete lack of interest in—or Erroll, E. Mandelson, L. even their disagreement or contempt for—the Evans of Parkside, L. Martin of Springburn, L. Government’s attempt to hold a referendum by voting Falkland, V. Masham of Ilton, B. in negligible numbers. I think it is perfectly reasonable, Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Massey of Darwen, B. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Maxton, L. in those circumstances, for Parliament to take Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Meacher, B. responsibility. That is the basic approach and I stand Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Mitchell, L. by it. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Monks, L. I do not want to go into all the other details because Fritchie, B. Moonie, L. Gale, B. Morgan of Huyton, B. I know nothing about the incinerator in King’s Lynn. I Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Giddens, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Rannoch, that we have reached the death of the political Goldsmith, L. Morris of Yardley, B. class. I know they are a bit threatened, but I do not Goodhart, L. Moser, L. think they are dead. All those issues are beyond me. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Noon, L. Goudie, B. Nye, B. One final point is that there have been a good Gould of Potternewton, B. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. number of comparisons with elections, local elections Grantchester, L. Palmer, L. and so on, which have no 40 per cent bar. I think all Grenfell, L. Patel, L. those arguments are totally irrelevant. In particular, Grey-Thompson, B. Patel of Blackburn, L. Grocott, L. Patel of Bradford, L. we had a Second Reading of a Bill yesterday that Hannay of Chiswick, L. Pendry, L. made possible a large number of referendums on local Harries of Pentregarth, L. Pitkeathley, B. government. Every one of those referendums was Harris of Haringey, L. Plant of Highfield, L. going to be advisory, not mandatory. The position of Harrison, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. the Government, particularly the Liberal Democrats, Hart of Chilton, L. Prashar, B. is in favour of advisory referenda and I cannot see why Haskel, L. Prescott, L. Haworth, L. Prosser, B. they wish to act differently in this case. I think I have Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Puttnam, L. said enough, and I wish to get my reward here and not Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Quin, B. in heaven. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the Henig, B. Radice, L. House. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Hollick, L. Ramsbotham, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Rea, L. 6.25 pm Howarth of Breckland, B. Reid of Cardowan, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Division on Amendment 5 Howe of Aberavon, L. Richard, L. Howe of Idlicote, B. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Contents 221; Not-Contents 216. Howie of Troon, L. Rogan, L. Hoyle, L. Rooker, L. Amendment 5 agreed. Hughes of Stretford, B. Rosser, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Division No. 1 Hunt of Chesterton, L. Rowlands, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Irvine of Lairg, L. Sawyer, L. CONTENTS Jones, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Aberdare, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Sewel, L. Adams of Craigielea, B. Christopher, L. Kakkar, L. Sherlock, B. Ahmed, L. Clancarty, E. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Simon, V. Alton of Liverpool, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Smith of Basildon, B. Anderson of Swansea, L. Clarke of Hampstead, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Andrews, B. Clinton-Davis, L. King of West Bromwich, L. Snape, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Soley, L. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Cobbold, L. Kirkhill, L. Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, Armstrong of Ilminster, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. L. Bach, L. Corbett of Castle Vale, L. Krebs, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Bakewell, B. Craig of Radley, L. Laming, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Craigavon, V. Lea of Crondall, L. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Beecham, L. Crawley, B. Leitch, L. Swinfen, L. Best, L. Cunningham of Felling, L. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Bhattacharyya, L. Davies of Coity, L. Liddle, L. Taverne, L. Bichard, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Lipsey, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Bilston, L. Davies of Stamford, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. Temple-Morris, L. Birt, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Listowel, E. Tenby, V. Blackstone, B. B. Lloyd of Berwick, L. Thornton, B. Blood, B. Dear, L. Low of Dalston, L. Tomlinson, L. Boyd of Duncansby, L. Deben, L. McAvoy, L. Touhig, L. Bradley, L. Deech, B. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Triesman, L. Brennan, L. Desai, L. L. Tugendhat, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Donaghy, B. McDonagh, B. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Brookman, L. Donoughue, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. Turner of Camden, B. Browne of Belmont, L. Drake, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Browne of Ladyton, L. D’Souza, B. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Walpole, L. Browne of Madingley, L. Dubs, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Warnock, B. Butler of Brockwell, L. Dykes, L. L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Campbell of Surbiton, B. Eatwell, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Wheeler, B. Campbell-Savours, L. Elystan-Morgan, L. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Whitaker, B. 309 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 310

Whitty, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Montrose, D. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Wilkins, B. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Skelmersdale, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Wright of Richmond, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Smith of Clifton, L. [Teller] Young of Hornsey, B. Naseby, L. Spicer, L. Wills, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Newby, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Newlove, B. Steel of Aikwood, L. Newton of Braintree, L. Stephen, L. NOT CONTENTS Nicholson of Winterbourne, Stewartby, L. Addington, L. Freud, L. B. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Noakes, B. Storey, L. Alderdice, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Northbrook, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Gardner of Parkes, B. Northover, B. Strathclyde, L. Arran, E. Geddes, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- German, L. O’Cathain, B. Tebbit, L. Hamdon, L. Glasgow, E. Palumbo, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. Astor, V. Glendonbrook, L. Parminter, B. Tope, L. Astor of Hever, L. Goodlad, L. Patten, L. Tordoff, L. Attlee, E. Goschen, V. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Trefgarne, L. Avebury, L. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Trenchard, V. Baker of Dorking, L. Greaves, L. Phillips of Sudbury, L. Trimble, L. Barker, B. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Randerson, B. True, L. Benjamin, B. Greenway, L. Rawlings, B. Trumpington, B. Berridge, B. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Razzall, L. Tyler, L. Bew, L. Hamwee, B. Reay, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Black of Brentwood, L. Hanham, B. Ribeiro, L. Ullswater, V. Blencathra, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Risby, L. Vallance of Tummel, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Henley, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Verma, B. B. Heyhoe Flint, B. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Vinson, L. Boswell of Aynho, L. Higgins, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Waddington, L. Bridgeman, V. Hill of Oareford, L. St John of Fawsley, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. Brinton, B. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Sanderson of Bowden, L. Wakeham, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L. Sassoon, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. L. Howe, E. Scott of Needham Market, B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Brookeborough, V. Howell of Guildford, L. Seccombe, B. Walmsley, B. Brougham and Vaux, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Warsi, B. Browning, B. Hussain, L. Selsdon, L. Wasserman, L. Burnett, L. Hussein-Ece, B. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Wei, L. Buscombe, B. James of Blackheath, L. Sharkey, L. Wheatcroft, B. Byford, B. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Sharples, B. Wilcox, B. Caithness, E. Jenkin of Roding, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Cathcart, E. Jolly, B. Sheikh, L. Willoughby de Broke, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Shipley, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Chorley, L. Jopling, L. Clement-Jones, L. Kilclooney, L. 6.37 pm Colwyn, L. King of Bridgwater, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. Kirkham, L. Cormack, L. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Courtown, E. Knight of Collingtree, B. Clause 2: Treaties amending or replacing TEU or Crathorne, L. Kramer, B. TFEU Crickhowell, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Cumberlege, B. Lang of Monkton, L. Dannatt, L. Lawson of Blaby, L. Amendment 5A De Mauley, L. Leach of Fairford, L. Denham, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Moved by Lord Liddle Dholakia, L. Lexden, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Lingfield, L. 5A: Clause 2, page 2, line 24, after “that” insert— Dobbs, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. “(a) a referendum does not need to be held in accordance Doocey, B. Liverpool, E. with section (Process for determining the necessity of Dundee, E. Loomba, L. referendums); or Eames, L. Lothian, M. (b) ” Eaton, B. Lucas, L. Eccles, V. Luke, L. Eccles of Moulton, B. Lyell, L. Lord Liddle: My Lords, after that great victory Eden of Winton, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Edmiston, L. MacGregor of Pulham for Parliament—let us thank the noble Lord, Lord Elton, L. Market, L. Williamson, for moving the amendment and being the Empey, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. moving spirit behind it, with other Cross-Benchers—I Falkner of Margravine, B. McNally, L. now speak to the amendments in my name and that of Faulks, L. Maddock, B. my noble friend Lord Triesman, which are also about Feldman, L. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Fellowes of West Stafford, L. Mar and Kellie, E. the role of Parliament, about strengthening Parliament Fink, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, and substituting the discretion of Parliament for the Flight, L. L. automaticity of the referendum locks that the Bill Fookes, B. Marland, L. contains. Fowler, L. Marlesford, L. Framlingham, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. The amendments do not drive a coach and horses Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, through the basic principle of the Bill, which is a Freeman, L. B. requirement for referendums on the big issues affecting 311 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 312

Europe’s future, but they set up a special Joint Committee events and to be a good partner to our partners in the of Parliament: the European Referendum Scrutiny Union. We cannot completely tie our hands in advance Committee. In cases where Parliament had passed an when we do not know the future—as the example of Act under this legislation, that committee would be the European stability mechanism shows. there to consider whether it was necessary to have a The second political argument is that there is no referendum on that Act. In making those judgments it reason why the Liberal Democrats could not support would take account of the criteria in subsection (4) of this amendment. As I pointed out before, the coalition Amendment 5B. Those criteria include whether the agreement in its text drew a very clear distinction matter was significant, whether it was urgent and between major treaties where referenda would be necessary where the national interest would lie. It would come to and minor changes which would require primary a judgment on whether it felt that a referendum was legislation in Parliament. This Bill does not represent justified. If a referendum was justified, it would be what the Liberal Democrats signed up for in the up to each House, in a Motion, to approve that coalition agreement. I do not see why they have to recommendation. It is important to emphasise—because besmirch their pro-European reputation by signing up this is a change in the amendment that we moved in to something that is simply there in order to appeal to Committee, perhaps to make it more acceptable to the Eurosceptics on the Conservative Benches in the sceptics in the House—that if there was not to be a House of Commons. It is very clear—I could read it referendum, it would require both Houses to say no to out but I will not delay the House by so doing—that the recommendation of the Joint Committee that there under the coalition agreement, they could quite happily should not be a referendum. In other words, it would support this kind of proposal. Within the coalition meet the point that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, agreement there is precisely the judgment about makes that with executive control over the Commons, proportionality that this Bill does not contain. it would be possible for a whipped vote to defeat the idea of a referendum, because they would have to go The third point is defending the great cause of against the recommendation of the committee and democracy. The Government argue that there is a win that position in our Chamber as well. great crisis of legitimacy in the European Union. Indeed, there is. But when you look at British politics, What is the point of putting in place this proposal? there is also a great crisis of legitimacy. When you It is to inject proportionality into the Bill. The Bill look at opinion polls and who people trust, you will contains no proportionality whatever. It is a “thus far see that the European Parliament probably has a and no further” Bill as far as the European Union is higher level of trust than many British institutions. In concerned. It assumes—and it is an extraordinary fact, trust in our political parties is, if anything, rather assumption—that a Government can today foresee all lower than trust in European institutions. I am not the circumstances in which change in the European saying that because I like that situation. What I am Union might be necessary over the coming years. The saying is: be very careful if, in the Europe case, you noble Lord, Lord Howell, keeps telling us that he sees think that the remedy for this lack of trust is to move very little prospect of a referendum occurring in the to a referendum-type democracy—to move to the near future. However, within two years of the approval people being able to vote on anything and everything, of the Lisbon treaty we have already had a proposal which is what this Bill proposes on Europe. There for a revision of that treaty, under the simplified would be absolutely no reason why people should not revision procedure, to create a European stability make the same argument about Westminster and move mechanism, which is necessary to deal with the crisis to referenda on anything and everything. What we in the euro area. That is not the result of an attempt to would end up with is a situation like California, where deceive people after it was thought that there would be propositions are voted through which make the task no treaty changes immediately after Lisbon. That is of running an efficient government wholly impossible. not the reason. The reason is that, due to the crisis in It ends up with contradictory propositions being carried the euro, circumstances have occurred which no one in popular referenda and you cannot have an effective foresaw and it is necessary to make this minor amendment system of government. For all these arguments, we to the treaty. need to keep first and foremost in our mind the need As it happens, that does not affect us. However, if to strengthen the role of Parliament in this Bill. there was a change which in a similar set of circumstances That is what the amendment does. It does not stop did affect us, it would require a referendum. Yet it is referenda; it does not drive a coach and horses through hardly the kind of major issue about the nation’s the Bill; but it introduces that vital element of destiny that would justify having a referendum. It proportionality by proposing a special committee of would therefore be up to the Joint Committee that we both Houses to examine the case for a referendum and would establish to decide on the proportionality of gives Parliament the right to decide in which cases these questions as to whether a referendum was necessary. referenda should take place. That is in accordance It is a strengthening—an affirmation—of the rights of with the principles of the Constitution Committee of Parliament, just as we have voted for a few moments the House. I thought that it was a bit rich of the ago, and an important one to make. Minister to quote the Constitution Committee on thresholds but to ignore completely its major point 6.45 pm that it believes that referenda should be confined to I make three main broad political arguments for fundamental issues of constitutional importance. This this. First, if you are seriously committed to Britain’s is a mechanism for confining referenda to issues of participation in the European Union, you want a constitutional importance. For that reason I commend British Government to be able to respond flexibly to the amendment to the House. 313 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 314

Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, I support the record, I do not find, in the copy that I have just amendment. It seems to me that it addresses an issue looked up, the elements of the coalition agreement to which desperately needs addressing in the Bill, and which the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred as endorsing that is flexibility. The structure of the Bill, particularly this amendment. I would not want to tempt him to in its elaborate nature, with the 56 possible incidences read out the entire section on Europe in the coalition of referenda, is, frankly, a couch of Procrustes, on agreement, as the hour is late. which we are busy stretching ourselves and on which, I shall speak to the substantive elements of the no doubt, our feet or our heads will one day be lopped amendment. We do not believe that it would be right off. It is very rigid indeed. It leaves very little appreciation to take such a dramatic step to remove from the to the Government of the day, although of course the Executive, the Government of the day, the decisions Government of the day will have had to agree in about what they will support or not and to give them Brussels that, in principle, subject to the proceedings to a committee of both Houses. We have had a long in this Bill, they will go along with it. However, then debate about Parliament and the importance of the rigidity comes back in. It is not surprising in a way. parliamentary scrutiny and so on. In Committee, we The Government proudly call this Bill a referendum heard a lot of argumentation across the House regarding lock, the key of which they have taken out and are urgent situations and what would happen because now throwing out of the window. decision-making was so late and would be so stymied. I think this amendment is one way to deal with the I find that the methodology proposed here would issue and earlier today we discussed others. I very certainly add to the amount of time that would be much welcome the fact that the Government recognise taken to deal with measures if a Joint Committee had that, in the handling of this “or otherwise support” to rule on them. There would also be the issue of issue, they needed a bit more flexibility and they have reintroducing some rather subjective concepts: urgency now moved an amendment, which I was delighted to and national interest. We have had debates on those see went through unopposed, which gives a little more subjects; both are highly subjective. We are also conscious flexibility. It enables a Minister in Brussels to say that of the judicial review implications contained in the he would take something back to London and subject Bill. it to the procedures under the Bill, but that he would Finally, the amendment seems to miss the underlying support it. It enables him to say that but, of course, it theme of the Bill, which is that the Executive make a does not allow it to go through in any legal sense. That call on a proposal, bring it to Parliament, Parliament is an increase in flexibility. We have just voted for an agrees it and then the public are to ratify that decision increase in flexibility for Parliament because, if less through a referendum. As we have repeatedly heard than 40 per cent of the British people are prepared to from the ministerial Bench, the Bill is designed to get off their backsides and vote, then Parliament will reconnect the British public with these policy issues be able to take a decision itself and the result of the that emanate from the European Union. The public referendum will be only advisory. will be empowered, through the processes proposed It would be splendid if the Government would here. To take that away and to give it to a Joint think a little more about how to introduce more Committee of both Houses seems to me to entirely flexibility into the Bill, while not removing the essence miss the point of the Bill. On that basis I suggest that of it. I accept that it is supported by a majority in the it goes contra to where we had got. Before I conclude I House of Commons and that it is in the coalition give way to the noble Lord, agreement, which says that, if there are major constitutional changes, there will be a referendum. As Lord Davies of Stamford: The noble Baroness has the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said, the recommendations said that one of the reasons why she did not want to of our own Constitution Committee are rather clear support the amendment was that she was worried that on this point but were ignored by the Government. it would raise the possibility of judicial review on the The noble Lord, Lord Howell, quoted the bit he liked, decision about whether a referendum was necessary. but did not quote the bit he did not like in the According to this amendment, that decision will be Constitution Committee’s report. That was a much taken by a parliamentary committee—in this case a longer bit, which said that referendums should be used joint parliamentary committee—so how could there only for major constitutional innovations. If you look possibly be a judicial review? That would be contrary at the various clauses of the Bill, you will see that there to the Bill of Rights. are stacks of things there which are not major constitutional innovations. This provision will give a Baroness Falkner of Margravine: I think I can see little more flexibility there, and I hope that the Government the point that the noble Lord is making. I wonder will seriously consider that because flexibility will be whether he is interested in hearing my reply, as he is needed somewhere down the line. The more care taken now engaged in another conversation. As I understand with the legislation, the better that legislation will be the amendment, the committee would make a for the interests of this country. recommendation to the Government on the basis of urgency, significance and national interest. I think the Baroness Falkner of Margravine: I say to noble decision of the Minister, in accepting or not accepting Lords opposite that we on the Liberal Democrat Benches the recommendation, would be subject to judicial recognise that this amendment is intended to enhance review. scrutiny and to improve propositions that might be For the reasons I have enunciated, I can see that the put forward by the Executive. We also accept the spirit amendment is well meaning but I urge my noble of what noble Lords opposite are trying to do. For the friends to oppose it. 315 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 316

7pm I do not think that people on the street are running around saying, “I wonder if we are a good partner Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, the clause with our colleagues in Paris or Bonn”. I do not think makes no reference to the Joint Committee advising this is something that registers with the people. What the Government. The Joint Committee would have the does register is if they are told one thing and then responsibility for making a decision. By definition, if something happens that is the opposite of what they the decision is made by a parliamentary committee—a were told or promised. That comes back to why there Joint Committee or other parliamentary committee—it is a need for such a Bill. Whatever its inelegancies—and could not be subject to judicial review. I can see that there are many—it is there because we have broken a trust. There is a huge gap between what Baroness Falkner of Margravine: Since the noble Lord we as politicians think and what the public think of us. continues with the matter, I will detain the house for a It has only been the recent financial crisis and the moment. What is the point of a recommendation coming situation with bankers that we now have somebody we out of a Joint Committee if the Government ignore it? can look down upon. Until then, we were really at the bottom of the pile. Lord Empey: My Lords, I have listened carefully to The truth is that we are, and have been, inconsistent. this debate and there is one thing that we can say We have chopped and changed on referenda. Burke about ourselves: we are at least consistent in our was quoted extensively—I am no scholar on Burke—but inconsistency. We were talking earlier about 40 per he was operating in the 18th century. cent thresholds and yesterday we were talking about 5 per cent thresholds, and some of us have been A noble Lord: He was Irish. subjected to referendums over the years whether we like them or not. Therefore, the important argument Lord Empey: Yes, and all the better for it. However, about parliamentary democracy which was put forward time has moved on and things have evolved from what eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and others we did when kings were able to come into this building does not quite register. I fear that this amendment and chop people’s heads off. Our constitution continuously suffers from the same weakness that it is the purpose evolves. Just because we are attracted to the idea that a of the Bill to try and resolve—that, effectively, Parliament representative should be free to come into Parliament is making these decisions. We hide behind the words and express his or her opinion on behalf of those they “major constitutional significance”—some people may represent—and people believe that to be a sacrosanct say they are weasel words—because what is major to position—in the way the modern world has developed, me might not be major to the noble Baroness. We then the referendum genie is out of the bottle whether take away from the Government of the day any significant people like it or not. You are not going to be able to role unless they rely on their party positions to whip push it back in so the question is, what triggers it? Do people into particular positions. we leave the trigger with the institution which has led The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred to the fact us to the position where this Bill is on the table or do that the Government had to be able to respond and be we put in some safeguards so that people know they a good partner to our European colleagues. I believe will get their say? that the United Kingdom has been an exceptionally I think that there is little alternative but to give this good partner over the years. However, simply because a try. It is not something that will last for ever—it we have particular constitutional architecture concerning might change. After 10 or 20 years it might no longer how we take decisions that affect us in no way invalidates be sustainable and we need to improve it. We have us as a good partner nor does it invalidate a Government’s moved on, people have moved on, communication has ability to respond. There are many decisions that require moved on and, thank God, people are educated to a an urgent response. I see no reason why that much greater extent. Years ago, when people came cannot continue. into these buildings they represented the masses outside It is only when there is actually a change of substance who could not read or write. Perhaps very few people that time will be taken to ratify that. Even when we had any grasp of what was going on around them. have been talking about the current economic position Their world was confined to their farm or, in more in Europe we have been looking at the stability recent years, to a factory. Today, the people out there arrangements and others, and we know that these are are much more sophisticated and probably know more going to take 18 months to 24 months to get through than many of us in here. We have to respect that and on existing arrangements. Therefore, I do not believe trust the people. that this country would be unable to respond and act We all make mistakes and sometimes referendums as a good partner. Nor am I frightened by the prospect produce results that we do not like. The same happens that if we enhance our constitutional arrangements in elections: it is the peril of the democratic world. our European partners will take the huff and stop However, we should look at the alternatives around dealing with us. I do not believe that for one moment. the world. Whatever faults we may have, ours is a It is our business. I believe that the Commission accepts better system, but it has to evolve. I fear that this that it is our business to decide whatever structures amendment, if passed, short-circuits and defeats the should be put in place. That is the way of the world. whole purpose of the legislation. Therefore, I am Other countries do it. Other countries have referenda; unable to support it. other countries have a variety of constitutional locks. As the European Union grows, I suspect we will Lord Hamilton of Epsom: I agree with the noble enhance the variety of different decision-making processes Lord, Lord Empey, because the purpose of the Bill is that come in. Why should we be worried about that? to give the people of this country the final say on what 317 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 318

[LORD HAMILTON OF EPSOM] examination of the members of the main European happens in terms of our relationship with Europe. If Select Committee or its sub-committees, but I am we allow this amendment to go through—and I totally prepared to bet that not a single member of those oppose it—the effect will be to open it all up again so committees agrees with at least half the British people, the discretion is left with Parliament. That is where the and perhaps only two or three of them could be whole problem started. Successive Governments have regarded as vaguely Eurosceptic. misled this country about the implications of the In the House of Commons, some 26 Members have treaties that we have signed. They have always been joined the joint Better Off Out group and have voted understated. in a refreshingly Eurosceptic direction on the Bill and I spent much time as a Government Whip in another other matters. The Joint Committee of both Houses of place saying to my colleagues, “Don’t worry about Parliament of course will be stacked by the Whips and this, it is just tidying things up and putting things in will, in the recent tradition of both Houses of Parliament, order. It does not really have any impact on the way we get wildly out of tune with the British people—something do business here.” Every single time I said that I was that the Bill is supposed to do something to correct. lying through my teeth. Government have been lying The amendment goes in entirely the opposite direction though their teeth from the very start when we entered and I hope that it will be resisted. the economic community. We said to everybody, “Don’t worry, there are no issue of sovereignty here. We are 7.15 pm joining a free trading area. A free trading area is a wonderful idea and we want to get into this as quickly Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: My Lords, I need to as possible”. recant. In Committee, I was against the amendment on the grounds that it complicated things. However, Baroness Quin: When we joined the European now it seems that it may be the only hope for dealing Economic Community, we were already in the European with a problem that I had hoped would be dealt with free trade area. I am old enough to remember that the by another route. I was young, innocent and idealistic; debates focused on the difference between a free trade I did not realise that we would end up cheering a area and the treaties that established the European government concession that means that, in the Bill, Economic Community. “support” is a term of art defined at the beginning, and the various prohibitions on Ministers of the Crown in any way supporting X, Y and Z does not mean that Lord Hamilton of Epsom: That was not the story they cannot propose, advocate or support them in that I was told. If I had realised the massive implications Brussels—just that they cannot vote for them. This is for the transfer of sovereignty as a result of signing, I a huge advance and I am beginning to understand would not have supported the referendum on the how difficult the legislative process is. question of our membership of the European Union. Clauses 2 and 3 have two different procedures, There has been a tremendous amount of deception. depending on whether the treaty amendment emerges Not only is it an understatement of what we have by the classical method plus a convention, or by the signed up to, but it is a process of grandmother’s accelerated method that is meant to deal with emergencies. footsteps—a little bit at a time, always understating We have two different procedures, and one of the the implications. Therefore, with reference to the paradoxes is that we have a significance test in the amendment, if we leave it with Parliament to make the second but not in the first. Therefore, we envisage that decisions about whether the implications of the business any treaty amendment by the first, traditional method are worthy of a referendum, we are right back in the plus the convention must be significant. The second position of deceiving the people of this country and curiosity is that I thought that a treaty amendment will merely sow more mistrust and undermine the was a treaty amendment, whichever route it came by. whole purpose of the Bill, which is to reassure the The third curiosity is that the accelerator method, British people that if there is any question of us being covered in Clause 3, is meant to be used in an emergency, drawn further into the European Union we will put it but we do not have any emergency or urgency test to them to decide whether it should happen. built in. The charm of the amendment, as I now see, is that Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, there is another it brings in these tests. It would get significance into reason to disagree with the amendment. Any Joint the traditional method, where it is not at the moment. Committee composed of Members of your Lordships’ It would also bring in urgency and the national interest, House and the other place is bound to be stacked in which perhaps is not a bad idea. It is a complication favour of the Europhiles. In your Lordships’ House, and it is a great pity that we have not had any clear we now number some 800 Members, of whom I think rationale for the separate methods that depend on the only eight are prepared to say, more or less in public, origin in Brussels of the treaty amendment. However, that we should leave the European Union. That compares we are where we are and clearly the Government are with some 84 per cent of the British public who want a not going to give us any concessions on that. Therefore, referendum on whether we stay in the European Union faute de mieux, I support the amendment of the noble at all—which has nothing to do with the Bill—and Lord, Lord Liddle. more than 50 per cent who believe that we should leave outright. In recent years, I have often pointed out that the composition of your Lordships’ Select Committees Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I begin by is skewed in favour of Europhilia, even by the standards dissociating myself entirely from the statement of the of your Lordships’ House. I have not made a recent noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that somehow the Bill gives 319 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 320 encouragement to referenda and public votes “on decisions must in future be ratified through an Act of anything and everything”. That was his phrase, but it Parliament. At least it retains a greatly increased role could not be further from the truth. It would be for Parliament, which this Bill stretches for and seeks impossible to think of a proposition that is more to provide. This is a definite advance. remote from what the Bill is intended to do. The Bill is Moving from ministerial discretion over whether a about transfers of power and sovereignty—over a referendum should be held, to parliamentary discretion wide range of issues, I concede—from the United over whether a referendum should be held, really is Kingdom and this Parliament to the European Union. not sufficient. What we would have is an extra step in I am left almost speechless; what is unimportant or the process of deciding whether to have a referendum, trivial about that? These are issues that we have dealt which I suspect would merely diminish further rather with again and again—the famous red lines that successive than increase the confidence and trust of the British Governments have found to be of extreme importance people when compared to the current provisions in the to Britain. The argument is not that we should not be Bill and to what the Bill is trying to do. It would cut involved with the European Union in all these areas, right across, and therefore potentially diminish, the but that we should retain a veto power if we are work done by the European scrutiny committees of pressed too far; that all the powers that are needed both Houses, which—despite the overrides, which one have been conceded under the Lisbon treaty; and that must concede have been too frequent—has been valuable those that were left out—the remaining issues where in giving some impression to the general public and to unanimity must prevail, where the veto must be kept the electorate of this country that there are some in place and where no further treaty competences brakes on the system. should be transferred—are all the important remaining ones, which many of the 27 countries insisted on Why would the arrangements for the proposed preserving. European referendum scrutiny committee diminish public trust? The answer is that because whereas the These are the important issues: defence and security, Bill is, with the exception of the narrowly defined national security, military issues, national tax, fiscal significance test, very specific about which transfers of and energy policy, provisions under the EU budget, power and competence would lead to a referendum—that financial management of the EU, citizenship and elections, is what this whole Bill is about—these amendments foreign policy and social security. These are not trivial would do away with the certainty. In agreeing the Bill issues that can be dismissed. What prevails in these as drafted, Parliament would be giving a clear signal comments is a devastating lack of understanding of to the public as to when a referendum would be held. the importance of the remaining issues that are not If the amendment were agreed, the whole process within the competence and power of the EU because would be lost in a whirlpool of subjective political the nation states do not feel that it is necessary for judgments and, I have no doubt, of manoeuvres as them to be there—and, on the contrary, think that well, and of all the pressures that operate through our they should remain under national and sovereign control. political system—perfectly properly, because that is Therefore, the starting point of many of these comments the way that a democratic system works. The idea that is so far removed from what is in the Bill and what the they would be absent and that an isolated, divinely Bill is concerned with that I find it very hard to find a independent judgment could be reached by this committee bridge of words to link the two, but I will try my best. is absurd and naive. Under these amendments, decisions on whether a These amendments require the committee to assess referendum on treaty change or a decision—these are all treaties and Article 48 decisions against significance, big issues—should be held would be made by a special urgency and the national interest. These are highly committee of both Houses. This is similar, though not subjective terms which are capable of a far wider identical, to the debate we had on amendments in range of interpretation than the criteria in Clause 4, Committee. They were limited to Clause 6 decisions, which have been carefully analysed and crafted. This and seem to have widened the scope of the so-called amendment moves the whole debate away from an European referendum scrutiny committee to cover objective consideration of whether power or competence treaties and Article 48(6) decisions. This is a big assignment has been transferred from the UK to the EU. It moves of discretion to this parliamentary committee. How it away from objectivity to subjectivity of precisely the this committee would come about, I am not too sure. I kind which works against trust and against confidence, have to say in the best of spirits to the noble Lord, and against support for the whole European Union Lord Kerr, that if he thinks that this committee would project which I thought so many noble Lords wanted be free of interference from the Government or party- to see reinforced. political pressures of various sorts, then his innocence is not entirely lost. Government and Parliament will of course take I am at least pleased that this amendment recognises into consideration issues of urgency, importance and that consideration should be given to the need for a certainly the national interest when negotiating a treaty referendum when treaties or Article 48 decisions are to change, and in passing Acts to ratify treaty change. be made. This is a clear step forward from the status These are centrally important issues, but they are not quo, where it was entirely down to Ministers to decide the right criteria on which to decide whether a referendum whether a referendum was to be held and where, as we is needed before a treaty change or an Article 48 have sadly seen, Ministers and Governments can and decision is ratified. do change their minds—hence many of our problems. The other problem with these amendments is that The amendment appears to have retained the provisions the decisions on these highly subjective issues will be in the Bill—which is good—that all treaties and Article 48 made, frankly, by a small number of parliamentarians. 321 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 322

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] However well intentioned these amendments, they I have said that we are not quite sure how they would cannot serve to enhance this Bill or its underlying come to be on this committee. The way this committee virtues and purpose. The Bill is deliberately designed is set up means that it could only ever deny the public a to set out as clearly as possible which treaty changes referendum, which is what is promised under this Bill. would require a referendum, while avoiding the need I do not like to say it, but when my noble friend Lord for trivial referendums. That seems to me to be a scare Hamilton points it out, it is a fact that the British story which I hope we are not going to hear repeated people’s trust in the institution of Parliament and the because it is not connected with the reality, the intention political parties within it has, in this area, been eroded or the possibilities which arise from this Bill. Leaving over the years, particularly on issues of Europe; I it to the discretion of a committee of parliamentarians sometimes think that on other issues it is grossly to decide whether a referendum is needed will do exaggerated. One always marvels at how many people nothing whatever to reconnect, re-engage and regain are generally critical of the political class, but when the trust of the British people. I believe this is an they start talking about individuals—the hard-working amendment that we could do without and that does Members of Parliament—they say, “Oh no, our person not help the Bill or the underlying purposes, which I is splendid. It is just the general lot we do not like”. It believe most noble Lords in all political parties and in can be overdone. However, on the issue of Europe, it is none basically want reinforced. I think these amendments quite clear, by every measure that we have seen of the go the other way and take away from us the purposes public’s support and the general tenor of the public and goals that we should be pursuing, so I ask the debate, that a lack of trust is noticeable. People have noble Lord to withdraw the amendment. been promised a referendum on a treaty change, only to see it taken away again. This is reflected in the 7.30 pm number of people who do not value the EU, who do not trust it or who simply do not seem to grasp its Lord Liddle: My Lords, I have to confess that I am work, aims or purposes. There is a sense of apathy, staggered by the Minister’s reply. He misrepresents the because people feel powerless to influence decisions position of the Opposition, and I do not think he which affect their daily lives. To deny this really is to understands the content of the Bill that he is putting shut our minds to the good and valuable side of the before this House. Let me briefly say why. He goes on EU’s work, which I believe is enormous and often at length about allowing people to vote on decisions underestimated. that affect their daily lives. Is he putting this forward as a general principle? Do the Government think that The coalition Government intend to address this there should be a vote on the merits of their health cynicism, apathy and lack of trust. The aim is to reforms and the changes to their health reforms? How reconnect the British people directly to the key decisions many people in the country do they think would vote on the EU and assure them that, while there are now for that? The idea that this Government stand for a vast powers and competences in the EU’s hands, any general principle of giving people the right to have a further expansion of these would have to be very say over decisions that affect their own lives is a carefully argued and in many cases put to the British nonsense. people for their approval. It remains a mystery to me Why is it that this principle should simply be applied why the Opposition still somehow argue that there to the European Union and be applied in a way in should be these extra powers—that we are going to which the Government do not appear to understand need these future treaty changes—but what for? One is what they are doing? The Minister says that we are left groping the air, trying to understand the mystery saying that this Bill will require referenda on anything of it all. It is a sort of apophatic doctrine, that somehow or everything. In the case of the European Union, there are issues ahead so complicated that the people there are 56 instances where this Bill requires a referendum. cannot put them into words or understand them, and Is it seriously being suggested that there are 56 issues that these require the flexibility which the noble Lord, of profound importance affecting Britain’s future in Lord Hannay, keeps returning to. Europe which would require a referendum? I suggest We know that the British people want a say. The not. We know what those major issues are. We will June 2009 survey by the European Parliament found have amendments later to confine the referenda to that eight out of 10 people in this country agreed that those major issues. It is a nonsense to suggest that we future EU treaty changes should be decided by should have referenda on 56 issues. As far as Europe is referendums. Fewer than one in 10 disagreed. These concerned, that is anything or everything. amendments do not represent the modern reality about There is a point-blank refusal on the part of Ministers transparency and openness that we in the coalition to understand the need for some flexibility when we Government want, and which reflects a modern attitude are dealing with the future. I do not think that the to participatory democracy. They are a step back in government Benches understand the point of an time which may be nostalgic and romantic, but they Article 48(6) simplified revision procedure, which is take us away from reality and away from the future. under Clause 3. It is to deal with circumstances which we cannot foretell, yet in every circumstance, apart I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Waddington, from very limited exceptions, this legislation says who is not in his place at the moment, for what he said that such an amendment would require a referendum. about these proposals in Committee. He said that, It is the view of every expert on the European Union “you are moving even further away from a situation where the that that is going to inhibit greatly Britain’s ability in general public has any confidence at all that its views are considered future years to play a leading role in the European when vital decisions are made”.—[Official Report, 16/5/11; col. 1230.] Union. 323 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 324

As for the Minister’s remarks about how parliamentary Lea of Crondall, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. committees are all fixes and you cannot trust what Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Richard, L. they say, I thought that he had respect for the workings Liddle, L. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Lipsey, L. of Parliament and for the workings of the Constitution Rogan, L. Low of Dalston, L. Rooker, L. Committee of this House, for instance, which puts McAvoy, L. Rosser, L. forward very objective reports, despite the party McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Rowlands, L. composition of its membership. I would have thought L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. that if we agreed, as this amendment proposes, to a McDonagh, B. Sawyer, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. parliamentary process for deciding what was proportional, McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Sewel, L. such a parliamentary committee would do its job MacKenzie of Culkein, L. independent of the Executive in such a way that we Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Sherlock, B. could all respect its judgment. L. Simon, V. McKenzie of Luton, L. Smith of Basildon, B. I am afraid I am unconvinced by the Government. I Masham of Ilton, B. Smith of Finsbury, L. am not prepared to withdraw the amendment, and I Maxton, L. Snape, L. wish to test the opinion of the House. Meacher, B. Soley, L. Mitchell, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Monks, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. 7.35 pm Moonie, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Morris of Handsworth, L. Thornton, B. Division on Amendment 5A Morris of Yardley, B. Tomlinson, L. Moser, L. Touhig, L. Contents 158; Not-Contents 208. [The Tellers for the Neill of Bladen, L. Triesman, L. Nye, B. Truscott, L. Contents reported 158 votes; the Clerks recorded 157 names. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Tugendhat, L. The Tellers for the Not-Contents reported 208 votes; the Oxburgh, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Clerks recorded 207 names.] Pannick, L. Turner of Camden, B. Parekh, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. Amendment 5A disagreed. Pitkeathley, B. Walpole, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Warnock, B. Prescott, L. West of Spithead, L. Division No. 2 Prosser, B. Wheeler, B. Quin, B. Wilkins, B. CONTENTS Radice, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Wills, L. Adams of Craigielea, B. Eatwell, L. Rea, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Ahmed, L. Elystan-Morgan, L. Rees of Ludlow, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Anderson of Swansea, L. Evans of Parkside, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Andrews, B. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Bach, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Bakewell, B. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. NOT CONTENTS Bassam of Brighton, L. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Aberdare, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller] Gale, B. Addington, L. Cormack, L. Beecham, L. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Craigavon, V. Berkeley, L. Giddens, L. Alderdice, L. Crickhowell, L. Best, L. Goldsmith, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Cumberlege, B. Bichard, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Arran, E. De Mauley, L. [Teller] Bilston, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Deben, L. Blackstone, B. Grantchester, L. Hamdon, L. Denham, L. Blood, B. Grenfell, L. Astor of Hever, L. Dholakia, L. Boyd of Duncansby, L. Grocott, L. Attlee, E. Dixon-Smith, L. Bradley, L. Hameed, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Dobbs, L. Brennan, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Barker, B. Dundee, E. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Benjamin, B. Eaton, B. Brookman, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Berridge, B. Eccles, V. Browne of Belmont, L. Haskel, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Eccles of Moulton, B. Browne of Ladyton, L. Haworth, L. Blencathra, L. Edmiston, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Campbell-Savours, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. B. Elton, L. Clancarty, E. Henig, B. Boswell of Aynho, L. Empey, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Bridgeman, V. Falkner of Margravine, B. Clarke of Hampstead, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Brinton, B. Faulks, L. Clinton-Davis, L. Howie of Troon, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Feldman, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Hoyle, L. L. Fink, L. Crawley, B. Hughes of Woodside, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Flight, L. Davies of Coity, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Browning, B. Fookes, B. Davies of Oldham, L. Jones, L. Burnett, L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Davies of Stamford, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Buscombe, B. Framlingham, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Kennedy of Southwark, L. Byford, B. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. B. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Carlile of Berriew, L. Freeman, L. Deech, B. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Cathcart, E. Freud, L. Desai, L. King of West Bromwich, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Donaghy, B. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Drake, B. Kirkhill, L. Chidgey, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. D’Souza, B. Knight of Weymouth, L. Clement-Jones, L. Geddes, L. Dubs, L. Layard, L. Colwyn, L. German, L. 325 European Union Bill[LORDS] Science and Technology Committee 326

Glasgow, E. Northover, B. Research: Science and Technology Glendonbrook, L. Norton of Louth, L. Goodlad, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Committee Report Goschen, V. O’Cathain, B. Question for Short Debate Grade of Yarmouth, L. Patel, L. Greaves, L. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Greenway, L. Perry of Southwark, B. 7.47 pm Hamilton of Epsom, L. Randerson, B. Hamwee, B. Rawlings, B. Asked By Lord Sutherland of Houndwood Hanham, B. Razzall, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Reay, L. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Henley, L. Rennard, L. response to the Report of the Science and Technology Heyhoe Flint, B. Ribeiro, L. Committee on Setting priorities for publicly funded Higgins, L. Risby, L. research (3rd Report, Session 2009–10, HL Paper 104). Hill of Oareford, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Roberts of Llandudno, L. L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, it is Howe, E. St John of Bletso, L. often said that the future success of this country Howe of Aberavon, L. St John of Fawsley, L. depends on our continuing success in science and Howell of Guildford, L. Sanderson of Bowden, L. technology. Although I am not a scientist, I fully agree Hunt of Wirral, L. Sassoon, L. Hussain, L. Scott of Needham Market, with that comment. There are clearly a number of James of Blackheath, L. B. other determinants of national well-being, not all of Jenkin of Kennington, B. Seccombe, B. which are in our control. However, success in science Jenkin of Roding, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. and technology is significantly within our control. It is Jolly, B. Selsdon, L. with that element of the nation’s future that we are Jones of Cheltenham, L. Shackleton of Belgravia, Jopling, L. B. concerned today. Kakkar, L. Sharkey, L. We start from a strong platform. We have talent Kilclooney, L. Sharples, B. and, equally importantly—I shall come back to this—we King of Bridgwater, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. attract talent to this country. This is a good place to be Kirkham, L. Sheikh, L. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Shipley, L. a research scientist. We have institutions which give Knight of Collingtree, B. Shutt of Greetland, L. civil support to this, most notably the Royal Society, as Kramer, B. Skelmersdale, L. well as the various academies and institutions, including Krebs, L. Smith of Clifton, L. the Royal Society of Edinburgh, of which I confess an Laming, L. Spicer, L. interest as a past president. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Lang of Monkton, L. Stephen, L. We have talented and able scientists who continue Leach of Fairford, L. Stewartby, L. to build on the legacy of Newton, Boyle, Harvey, Lexden, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Darwin, Clerk Maxwell, Rutherford and so on. I Lingfield, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. could go on for half the evening but I shall not. I Linklater of Butterstone, B. Strathclyde, L. mention those names and the talent of our scientists Liverpool, E. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Loomba, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. to point out that, in forthcoming debates about the Lothian, M. Tebbit, L. membership of this House, I fervently hope we will Lucas, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. continue to have the immensely able and informed Luke, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. scientific opinion which, as noble Lords will hear in Lyell, L. Tope, L. this debate, we have with us. As the boxing metaphor McColl of Dulwich, L. Tordoff, L. MacGregor of Pulham Trefgarne, L. puts it, the nation has a capacity to punch above its Market, L. Trenchard, V. weight in science, technology and engineering. This is Mackay of Clashfern, L. Trimble, L. not simply an additional national boast and an intellectual McNally, L. True, L. luxury in which we enjoy indulging but one of the key Maddock, B. Trumpington, B. conditions of our economic vibrancy as a nation. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Tyler, L. Mar and Kellie, E. Tyler of Enfield, B. This report was prepared as a matter of some Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Ullswater, V. urgency in the autumn of 2009 and the spring of 2010, L. Vallance of Tummel, L. before the impending election, to help the debate Marlesford, L. Verma, B. about the place of science and technology in our Mayhew of Twysden, L. Waddington, L. community at a time which evidently was going to be Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Wakeham, L. B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. one of financial austerity. For a variety of reasons the Montrose, D. Wallace of Tankerness, L. report comes fairly late to this House, but there have Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Walmsley, B. been significant movements since it was submitted Morris of Bolton, B. Warsi, B. both in the Government’s response and in the development Naseby, L. Wasserman, L. of some of the recommendations that we have made. Newby, L. Wei, L. Newlove, B. Wheatcroft, B. As a consequence, my remarks will focus partly on Newton of Braintree, L. Wilcox, B. the report—some of its highlights and one or two Nicholson of Winterbourne, Willis of Knaresborough, L. of its key recommendations—and partly on policy B. Willoughby de Broke, L. developments of the new coalition Government which Noakes, B. Wolfson of Aspley Guise, L. have real significance for our capacity in science and Northbrook, L. Younger of Leckie, V. technology. Initially, what were our main recommendations? Consideration on Report adjourned until not before The first is just motherhood and apple pie; that is, 8.48 pm. spend money wisely. I have to say that usually—I 327 Science and Technology Committee[8 JUNE 2011] Science and Technology Committee 328 speak here as a chastened former vice-chancellor— advisers to find the best advice they possibly can. This scientists come along with their hand out doing a may not seem an obvious point but it was obvious to good impression of Oliver Twist asking for more. That us on the committee. The recommendations I point to is not the point of this report. The point is to use what have to do with the chief scientific advisers, their we have to best effect and to ensure that in policy presence departmentally and also, in Sir John Beddington’s formulation and implementation the systems that we case, at key Treasury meetings and departmental have are at least fit for purpose. Although we are not management boards. asking for more money, I should point out—I think that this will come up later—that we need to keep in In the few minutes remaining to me I want to point mind who our competitors are internationally. Both to two or three policy developments that will have, and France and the USA have declared their intention of are having, an impact on our capacity in science. This enhancing the spend on science and technology. has been a constant refrain from the committee over the years. The Government’s left hand must know As to the report and spending money wisely, I want what their right hand is doing. Understandably, to make two points, which I think will be expanded on co-ordination sometimes fails. It is a big complex by some of my colleagues. Evidence given to us suggested business. However, I will give three examples where I at that time a certain flabbiness in co-ordination within have concerns to ensure that the unintended consequences government, in policy formulation and in drawing on which could be bad for science are not a reality. I start the best possible advice in this area. I believe, and I with the question of science in schools. I thoroughly think that my colleagues agree, that this led to a supported the clear statement by the noble Lord, Lord limitation in overall vision. Science and technology Browne, about the importance of funding STEM subjects and its importance for our community is so critical in universities, both in civil terms and also in terms of that there has to be a vision that is clear and understood the economy. I am concerned that that has not gone widely by the community at large so that when we are along with equally clear statements about whether we supporting significant spend in science, as we are and will have enough well-qualified and able students coming which is a good thing, the arguments will be understood through to fill the places in universities that are going by the wider community. to be so funded. Put bluntly, I am concerned that that One condition of informed vision, planning and will not be the case. I simply ask the Minister to ask policy is knowing where we are. We asked a key her colleagues in the relevant department what they question of our witnesses: what is the total spend, are going to do about the critical point of the curriculum department by department, across the whole of for science and the attractiveness of science to senior government on research in science and technology? pupils in schools. Good things have happened and I Our witnesses, who came from well-informed sources, support the Browne proposals and the department’s could not answer that question. One of them significantly interest in the Baker-Dearing trust’s initiative on technical pointed to the difficulties in this country as compared education. I think that that is very good and very with other countries in putting a total figure on research important. and expenditure in science and technology across all departments. Youcan do it for the research councils—that The second example is the Department of Health. I is pretty straightforward—but a significant part of do not want to intrude on private grief but there are our research activity is funded through departments. real discussions going on about the state of the current “We don’t know” was the answer, and no one at that Bill. The Bill contains a clear permissive statement stage could tell us. I believe that there has been progress that research can be commissioned. I would like since then. I will come back to that in a moment. We reassurances that the resources will not simply slide need to know what steps can be put in place to ensure away from those who do the commissioning. If the that there is such a total picture of the platform from resources move significantly towards a different form which we start in planning expenditure in this area. of commissioning within the health service, will there be a danger that the major input of the NHS into The second point I want to make from the report is research might slip backwards—for example, for drug that we attach very great importance to the role of the trials which are very important in this country, but Chief Scientific Adviser. I believe we have an excellent also basic research in medical science? It would be Chief Scientific Adviser at the moment. There are good, even if not today in writing, to have some scientific advisers in most departments but not all. I reassurances that this can be done. point the finger at the Treasury here. I would like to know when that is going to happen. There was talk of The last point is a matter of government policy. a scientific adviser there. The Chief Scientific Adviser When I was a vice-chancellor I was well aware of the and his colleagues in departments have a critical role importance of looking internationally to recruit the to play in policy development and implementation. best scientists. Universities have raised concerns about We believe that the Chief Scientific Adviser should visas and we would like to be reassured again that have more access to specific departmental and there is no coyness or truculence in issuing visas to interdepartmental debates about funding. The condition those who have been identified as capable of making of this is that they are present in key meetings with the major contributions to scientific research in this country. Treasury as these are identified over the months and It is easy to turn off the enthusiasm of those who want years to come. The scientific adviser should have input to come, and plenty of other countries are developing into departmental expenditure, budget creation and policies and procedures to make it easy for these discussions with the Treasury. The advice that the individuals to go there. So I ask three questions about scientific adviser gives in the formulation of policy is contemporary policy and how it is developing. I look critical. We also put stress on encouraging scientific forward to the Minister’s reply. 329 Science and Technology Committee[LORDS] Science and Technology Committee 330

7.58 pm default this is happening, with 90 per cent of our research funding now being spent in around 30 of our Lord Willis of Knaresborough: My Lords, I did not universities. But if we are to remain globally competitive, have the pleasure of serving on the committee under further concentration, probably involving amalgamations the noble Lord’s chairmanship. Interestingly, I was of universities or departments, will be absolutely necessary conducting a similar inquiry in another place at exactly if we are going to remain world class, which is where the same time on the same subject and coming to the we have to be. same conclusions. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, for analysing so admirably the Government’s I shall say to noble Lords what I have said before. response to the Select Committee report. The fact that We cannot sustain 165 higher education institutions the Government’s response bore precious little relevance offering master’s and PhD courses. In the United to the actual recommendations of the report makes States, only 28 per cent of universities offer PhD his contribution today even more noteworthy. That programmes, while in the UK the figure is 90 per cent, said, he is right to say that the Government’s actual often with few faculty. Surely the time has come to record on research is far more positive. Ministers have look at US-style graduate schools in the UK. Further, chosen very wisely to build on the sound foundations many say that the new fee regime will make students laid by the previous Government, particularly the more demanding customers. Quite frankly, that is no noble Lords, Lord Sainsbury and Lord Drayson, even good for science. What we want is our universities to agreeing to include in the Ministerial Code a requirement become more demanding providers. They should ask to take notice of independent scientific advice, which more from their students in order to raise the academic was a recommendation from both our committees. bar. We constantly forget that that is the best way to Despite draconian cuts in public expenditure, a flat give value to our students. cash settlement of £4.5 billion is to be welcomed; and Finally, and here I have to declare an interest as the major capital investment at Harwell, at the new chair of the Association of Medical Research Charities, Institute for Animal Health at Pirbright, for molecular it is crucially important that we retain links with our biology at Cambridge and, of course, the fact that the charitable research funders. Some 15 per cent of the St Pancras development is going ahead, are clear money going into our universities comes from charities, indications of the Government’s commitment to science. with the 126 member charities in AMRC spending roughly £1 billion last year. Without the Charity Research The Treasury is almost on message. I say to the Support Fund introduced by the previous Government, noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, that this afternoon a it would not be possible to deliver the front-line support scientific adviser to the Treasury, James Richardson, that charities provide. I want to ask the Minister about was appointed. However, we should not get too excited this because the replies I have had so far suggest that because his press officer in the Treasury quickly sent a the Charity Research Support Fund will last only until message saying: 2011-12, with £198 million. I hope that my noble “I would like to stress that the post of Chief Scientific Advisor friend will be able to get a message from the Box will be taken on alongside James’ current responsibilities as the saying that at least throughout the whole of this Director of Public Spending and the chief Micro economist at the Treasury”. comprehensive spending review period, it will remain in place. Without it, we will seriously affect the amount How much time he will have for the job, I do not know. of money going into research from our charities. However, lest we get carried away by the Government’s record, the reality is that despite a decade during which we have seen research funding double, the amount 8.05 pm we have spent as a proportion of GDP has actually Lord Oxburgh: My Lords, in the spirit of doing the fallen from 0.69 per cent in 2004 to 0.6 per cent in best with what we have, I intend to follow the lead 2009, and this at a time when the UK was enjoying the made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, in discussing most prolonged period of economic prosperity that the role of departmental chief scientific advisers. Until the nation had ever seen. More worrying is that, while a couple of decades ago, the departments for which we were spending arguably more in cash terms but less research was important tended to fund and manage as a proportion of our GDP, all our competitors were their own research institutes. It was not a perfect outstripping us in terms of their investment. Even world, but Ministers and officials had direct access to more important is that over the coming decade, they scientific advice and technical expertise that was closely are all planning to increase their spend rather than tailored to their needs. This situation changed dramatically simply hold it where it is. when a majority of government research institutes The Science and Technology Committee report were privatised, turned into executive agencies or, in recommended urgent prioritisation of our research some cases, closed. The consequences for government effort, a call that has been echoed by most scientific science have been profound. Perhaps the main one is bodies. Since 2004, we have had a 10-year science and that today, there is virtually no opportunity to pursue innovation framework which has served us well, and a scientific career within the Civil Service. we should be honest enough to admit that. But we New science and engineering graduates are recruited need another one, and it has to be in place before the and indeed welcomed, but they bring very little experience next CSR, and we have to do the lobbying for it. A key of the world of science and engineering with them. priority of any plan must be the re-engineering of our The consequence is that when it comes to advice on research infrastructure, in particular in our universities matters of policy and procurement in these areas, and institutes, by asking what we expect them to departments may have virtually no relevant expertise deliver and giving them the resources to do so. By or experience. In essence, departments lost at this time 331 Science and Technology Committee[8 JUNE 2011] Science and Technology Committee 332 much of their ability to be intelligent customers. It was 8.11 pm this situation that led successive Chief Scientific Advisers Lord Krebs: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, to place great emphasis on the roles of their departmental Lord Sutherland of Houndwood, for introducing this counterparts. Necessarily, the majority of departmental important debate and for chairing the inquiry of the CSAs come from outside government. They have brought Select Committee of which I was a member. I should in high levels of recent experience of research and also add that I am the noble Lord’s successor as business. However, appointing a CSA is one thing, and chairman of the Select Committee, although he is, as using them properly is another. they say, a very hard act to follow. For a newcomer to be effective in Whitehall, there As the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, has said, are several requirements. The most important of these nobody seriously questions the importance of science is for the CSA to win the confidence of colleagues and and technology for the future well-being of this country. to convince them that he or she can help the department I want to add two points to that. One is the inherent do its job better. This means that the CSA must be unpredictability of identifying where those future seen to bring real expertise and experience to the job, significant discoveries will arise. It is famously said— and early on must take the time to get to know their perhaps apocryphally—that when Faraday was asked Ministers and colleagues properly, as well as understand about the importance of his discoveries, he said “What departmental priorities and problems. This is very use is a baby?”. The other point I wanted to make is hard for someone who can devote only a day or a that our own science and technology base not only couple of days a week to the job. Secondly, the CSA enables us to benefit from knowledge generated here needs sufficient rank to be taken seriously within the but to tap into the global source of knowledge—it department. They must attend senior staff meetings so enhances our absorptive capacity. that problems can be spotted before they arise. Without Science is one of the things at which the UK excels. that, the job becomes simply reactive, so that advice is If the Wimbledon tournament that starts in a couple often given too late and may not be taken seriously. of weeks’ time were a tournament for science, we Thirdly, the CSA has to have sufficient resources to do would certainly not be waiting 75 years for our first the job. These may be resources of people or of money male champion and 34 for our first female champion. to bring in external help. I make these points because The figures are very familiar but are worth repeating: there may be a tendency, at a time of financial stringency, we have 1 per cent of the world’s population, invest to think that a departmental CSA is an unaffordable 3 per cent of the world’s science funding but produce luxury or that savings can be made by downgrading 9 per cent of the scientific papers and 14 per cent of the post. This is far from the truth if the CSA is being the most highly cited papers. In terms of bangs per used properly. buck we are top of the G8 league and, as the noble Lord, Lord Willis, has already said, this is in spite of Against that background, it was a real concern to the fact that our public investment in science as a learn from evidence given at a recent meeting of the percentage of GDP is low—about half that of many Science and Technology Select Committee that the of our major competitors. Ministry of Defence plans to reduce the grading of its However, we should not rest on our laurels. The CSA when the present incumbent shortly retires. I global landscape of science is changing very rapidly must confess to a particular interest in this post as it and the recent Royal Society report Knowledge, networks was one that I held some 20 years ago. For the moment and nations highlights the rapidly changing global disregarding the fact that, as our report shows, the landscape. China, with its R&D spend growing by MoD has a massive R&D spend that is comparable to 20 per cent per year, is predicted to overtake the USA that of all other government departments put together as the leading nation for publishing scientific papers and that the department does not have an entirely by 2013. The Royal Society also highlights many other unblemished procurement record, technology is probably developing countries—for example Iran and Turkey—as more important to the MoD than to any other department dynamic rising stars. in Whitehall. It depends on maintaining a technological edge to which the CSA should make a vital contribution. In short, unless we not only sustain but increase our This is particularly the case at a time, such as the investment in science, we will very soon lose our present, of rapid technological change. At a time when pre-eminent position. The comprehensive spending challenges to our armed services appear to widen review, as the noble Lord, Lord Willis, has mentioned, daily, does it really make sense to risk the quality and did secure level cash funding for science programmes level of their technical support? In military matters over the next four years. This was, in relative terms, there are no prizes for coming second. Lowering the good news, but we should not forget that our competitors grade of the MoD CSA sends a very clear message to are increasing their investment. We should also not the outside world: namely, that lower-calibre and less forget that the settlement included a swingeing 54 per experienced applicants would be acceptable. cent cut in the capital budget of the research councils. I ask the Minister whether she agrees that the funding In the present climate, the need for effective levels for science in this country do indeed pose a serious departmental CSAs to help ensure good value for threat to our ability to attract and retain the best talent money is stronger than ever. I ask the Minister to use in a global market in the coming years. We should also the influence of her department to ensure that the role note that some government departments cut their R&D of CSAs in Whitehall departments is not diluted and budgets dramatically: 45 per cent for DCMS and in particular to ask the Ministry of Defence to reconsider 20 per cent for Defra. We heard from the Government’s its plan to downgrade its CSA. Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir John Beddington, last 333 Science and Technology Committee[LORDS] Science and Technology Committee 334

[LORD KREBS] The answer was: week in evidence that some departments have not yet “The papers … are internal documents at this stage and we are determined their budgets for the coming years. Can unable to share them with the Committee”. the Minister confirm that she has the figures for all the departments and can she tell us what those figures are? So my question for the Minister is: have they now I turn briefly in the last few minutes to the question been shared, or can they be? And is the Minister of scientific advice, to which others have already alluded. satisfied that cross-departmental sponsorship works As we have heard, over the past few years, an increasing well? That question is prompted by my visit to the number of government departments have appointed Natural History Museum earlier this year to see its chief scientific advisers who are leading experts from work in some depth. Its primary sponsorship body is, academia or other sources outside the civil service. of course, the Department for Culture, Media and This has been a most welcome development. However, Sport, because it is a museum. However, much of its I seek reassurance from the Minister that the commitment work would be sponsored by almost any other department, to this ideal is not faltering. whether it was Defra or DECC. Its work on a national, European and international level concerned with Therefore, I want to ask the following questions. ecosystems, for example, is absolutely critical. I am First, given the importance of social sciences for many sorry that the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, is not speaking policy matters, will the Government appoint an tonight. He made some incredibly important points in independent—an independent—chief social scientist this report with regard to systematics and taxonomy. to replace Professor Paul Wiles, who has retired? When Indeed, the Committee has previously done some very are the Departments for Transport and for Business, interesting reports on these issues. He said that it is a Innovation and Skills going to replace Professor Brian discipline that is quite critical in delivering biodiversity Collins, who was their independent chief scientific and conservation commitments. adviser? This latter point is particularly important in light of the recent critical reviews of these two departments It is critical also in understanding a swathe of issues by the Government Office for Science. The review for around, for example, food security—one of those the Minister’s own department says, grand challenges—biological pest control and plant “the resourcing and organisation of SE evidence and advice has adaptation to climate change, to mention but a few. not always been given the priority that is needed in BIS, and is not Last week the Government published the first national yet to the standard that we (the Panel) would expect”. ecosystem assessment which underlined how valuable In light of that, I want to hear from the Minister what a healthy environment is to our economy. If there are steps are being taken to improve scientific advice in gaps in our knowledge of that ecosystem, it will be her own department. very hard to build on the aspirations of the environment Finally, in an editorial in the leading scientific White Paper. journal Nature last year, which gave an early assessment It was also interesting to learn from the Natural of how the new Government were handling scientific History Museum’s recent assessment that for each advice, the conclusion was: pound of government money invested, £4 in wider “It should leave those who promote evidence-based policy economic benefits are delivered. Too often grants for feeling anxious”. research are seen as a cost to the Government rather Will the Minister assure us that the anxiety expressed than as an investment giving, in this case, a pretty fair by Nature is not justified? return. 8.17 pm I may be a lone voice in today’s debate, but when I look at appendix 5 and see the public funding for Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, as R&D, the challenges mentioned—climate change, one of the few non-scientists speaking in this debate, I food security and water security, in one category— should say that I was prompted to speak because the and then I look at the spend, I come away with the grand challenges that the report refers to and the feeling that our priority is still literally to be able to issues that it raises so powerfully—food security, water fight our way out of adversity. The MoD research security and climate change—concern us all. I was budget, as has already been mentioned, is nearly twice very concerned by the issues which were so well expounded that of all other government departments added between the chairman and the Chief Scientific Adviser together. We are still at the point of paying lip service when, on page 43 of the report, they talked about to solving problems through the acquisition and orphan issues. They both agreed that such important application of knowledge, while actually spending too issues often fall through the cracks in the system. That much resource in researching which weapons would is really what prompted me to speak today. It is very be best to use if that approach fails and we literally worrying to think that such important issues—in critical have to fight for our share in a hungry, water-short, areas such as biodiversity or climate change, which are energy-poor world. the ones that the report quotes—are not being covered. That perhaps is also why questions that require a I do not think that that is a battle we can win cross-departmental response are so essential. There is anyway in the long term with weapons. I do think that a non-answer to the key question on page 68 of the we could win it with enough investment and effort in evidence, which is really worrying. I want to ask the understanding the problems and developing the solutions. Minister today the same question: I understand that this report is not asking for more “Please could you send the Committee copies of papers … on money, it is asking for it to be spent in a more rational how departments and research councils will work together on and wise way and in closing those cracks. I hope that, cross-departmental issues?”. over time, we can look at shifting that investment. 335 Science and Technology Committee[8 JUNE 2011] Science and Technology Committee 336

8.22 pm is needed to develop ideas into marketable projects. This is a gap where bodies like the TSB may not be Lord Rees of Ludlow: As noble Lords have emphasised, adequate in scale and where something else may be science is indeed a UK success story, but the UK could needed. Chief scientific advisers within government pay a heavy price if we lose this competitive advantage. departments have a role here, as they have many other We are up against strengthening global competition roles. This system has proved its worth; excellent for the most talented individuals, the most innovative incumbents coming from outside the Civil Service, firms and leadership in high-tech sectors. The CSR when given access to Ministers and top officials, can indeed cut the science budget less than we had feared, really make a difference. but those who read in the foreign press about trends here do not get a positive impression. We still lag From outside government, it is also the role of behind our OECD comparators. Our universities are bodies such as the Royal Society—where I declare an perceived to be engulfed in turbulent restructuring. interest, as a recent president—to provide scientific Mobile talent from eastern Europe or Asia is in guidance to government and to the public. Indeed, at consequence less likely to perceive the UK as a favoured a time when, through the Public Bodies Bill, some destination than was the case a few years ago. Our statutory advisory bodies are under threat, the role of brightest young people, savvy about trends and anxiously academies has never been more essential in providing choosing a career, are not getting a signal that the UK independent, authoritative advice. The global offers enticing opportunities in cutting-edge science. developments of the 21st century will be driven by waves of new technologies. We must be equipped to A dangerous feedback operates here: a downward ride these waves and to ensure that scientific advances trend of just a few per cent in the UK when other countries optimally enhance our quality of life and the environment. are on the rise sends a signal that disproportionately I end with a quotation from a distinguished Member reduces our chances of attracting, retaining and of this House, the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, of Wigton, incentivising top talent. To attract academics, access who lectured in the Sheldonian Theatre last year: to responsive mode funding is crucial. We must continue “We are supposed to be the clever country. We used to be the to support the best research across all subject areas; commonsense country. Not for much longer if the politicians otherwise we could lose out on the greatest innovations, continue to undervalue the potency of those Francis Bacon called which often occur at the interfaces of traditional the ‘merchants of light’, of new knowledge, especially scientific disciplines. We also need breadth, to provide absorptive knowledge, which is unarguably the only sure wealth of the future”. capacity so that the UK can seize on ideas from the rest of the world and sustain top-rate university education. 8.28 pm Last year’s Nobel Prize in Physics went to two Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I join Russians on the faculty of Manchester University. the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, as the other non-scientist They created a substance called graphene; a new form and I enter the debate with some trepidation after of carbon, a lattice one atom thick with extraordinary hearing the contributions. First, I welcome the report tensile strength and electrical properties which could and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, for his lead to transformative technologies. If the UK is to introduction. He said that the UK was a good place sustain its scientific excellence, our universities must for science and technology and our aim should be to provide a supportive environment for serendipitous keep it that way, but we are in danger of losing our breakthroughs such as this. We must continue to be a world-leading position in science. The Government preferred destination for people like Novoselov and only have a three-year spending review period plan for Geim and, of course, our border agencies must welcome science. We have called for the Government to reinstate them in, wherever in the world they are from. a 10-year funding plan for science. This allowed researchers I want to say just a word about impact as measured and investors more confidence in the long-term funding in the report. The impacts of science are often felt far landscape and was welcomed by British scientists and away from the time and place where the original campaign groups. research is done. Even in medicine, where research is The report states: often highly targeted, the lag between scientific research “Our first recommendation is fundamental: that the Government and health benefits can be anywhere from 10 to 25 years. should make a clear and unambiguous statement setting out their In other areas of science it can be decades before current research funding commitments”. direct benefits are felt. The lineage of any spin-off can In their response to the report’s fundamental be traced back to a surprisingly diverse range of recommendation, the Government said that, influences. What is controversial is not whether the “funding of science and research will be addressed in the forthcoming impact is important—all scientists realise that and all Spending Review”. aspire to make an impact—the issue is whether impact The Government have repeatedly claimed that the can be appropriately quantified as a measure for allocating spending review science settlement is a long-term plan specific grant support. Most of us are concerned that for science and refused to reinstate Labour’s 10-year it is too long-term and diffuse to serve that role. plan for science. However, scientists know that three years is not long-term; it is not even one PhD funding The across-the-board public support for academic cycle. In a speech to the Campaign for Science and research comes, of course, from within the ring-fenced Engineering before the Budget, John Denham called science budget, but, of course, when it comes to the for the Government to put in place a long-term funding development phase, we cannot do everything and plan. He said: prioritisation is essential. The Government have a role “It’s essential that the forthcoming Budget sets out a clear here, as emphasised in the Hauser report, in bridging framework for science funding well beyond the current spending the gap between what is done in universities and what period and ideally for a 10-year period”. 337 Science and Technology Committee[LORDS] Science and Technology Committee 338

[LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN] development is something that the noble Lord, Lord Rees, We would argue that the previous Labour Government said in the conclusion of his contribution. He talked rescued British science. We introduced the science about turning research into applications that become research investment fund in 2002 to address a historic marketable products. We may excel, as one contributor backlog of upgrading and updating required by the said, in producing the largest number of papers in the physical university research infrastructure across the world, but if we cannot turn them into marketable UK, left by the previous Tory Government. We also products, there is a failure that needs to be addressed. set up the higher education innovation fund. We set up It reminds me of that old advert about what we might the UKRC, funding for which was withdrawn by call “the appliance of science”. BIS this year, to promote the position of women I, too, look forward to the Minister’s response scientists and engineers. We set up the Technology and thank the committee for producing a very interesting Strategy Board and the RDAs that have successfully report. invested in British science and innovation. We introduced the 10-year commitment to invest in science and 8.35 pm innovation. This gave the research community long-term confidence, as I said. This long-term increase has now The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, been reversed, with a real-terms cut over the next three Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness years, while, as several contributors have said, our Wilcox): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord international competitors—even those with deficit Sutherland of Houndwood, for introducing this debate reduction programmes—increase their investment. on the report Setting priorities for publicly funded research produced by the Science and Technology As I think the noble Lord, Lord Willis, pointed out, Committee, which he chaired. The Government’s response China is increasing investment in R&D by 8 per cent, was published in July 2010 and a copy is still available Germany is increasing investment by 7 per cent, France on the committee’s website. I will try to answer as by 1 per cent, Australia by 25 per cent and the USA by many questions as I can in the limited time that we 5.7 per cent. There are major new players in world have for such an important subject, but I will write to science, from Brazil to Singapore and from the Gulf any noble Lords whose questions I do not manage to states to India. As the Royal Society said in a recent pick up. It has been a pleasure to hear views, advice report, we need to keep running just to stand still. The and questions from some of the finest minds in the coalition does not seem to understand how tough the country, possibly the world. It is one of the great global competitive environment is. advantages of this House that we are able to do so. I Several contributors have said that the cuts under thank all noble Lords who have spoken. the comprehensive spending review could have been There have been many developments since the worse. The reality is that the science budget stays the Government published their response to the report same in cash terms, but has a 10 per cent real-terms Setting priorities for publicly funded research. In October resource cut of £450 million over that period. Capital 2010 the Chancellor announced that science and research research and development spend takes an enormous programme funding would be protected with a flat 40 per cent cut, which will recreate the huge backlog of cash, ring-fenced settlement for 2011-15. This was a building works that built up under the previous Tory major commitment to science at a time of great pressure Government. Other areas of the science budget, such on public spending. as funding for engagement and diversity in science, also face large cuts. There is an increasing focus on I will try to answer questions as I go through. I centralised excellence to the detriment of regional hope this does not make it too disjointed. To respond research centres and universities. RDA science funding, to the noble Lord, Lord Willis, who talked of a charity which was £440 million per annum, has also been lost. support fund, the charity support fund is part of Therefore, I have the following questions for the Minister. HEFCE’s block grant for research and will continue Why is the UK reducing its overall spending on research throughout the spending review period, as was announced and development when our competitors are increasing last December. I hope that is helpful. their investment? When will the Government set out In December, the science budget was allocated to their plans for investment in British science and innovation the individual research councils, HEFCE and other beyond 2014-15? programmes. In line with views from leaders of the academic and business communities, the balance of The noble Lord, Lord Rees, made some interesting funding between research councils and HEFCE was points when he talked about worrying signs and downward kept broadly the same—here I acknowledge the noble trends. If we want to maintain the UK as a place Lord, Lord Young.The coalition Government’s long-term where people want to continue undertaking research, vision for science and research was published alongside and to attract such people as the recent Nobel Prize their plans for science funding to 2011-15. winners he referred to, we have to make sure that we In the Budget in March, an additional £100 million create the right environment. was announced for science capital projects. This investment I must admit that when I looked at the report from will develop infrastructure at national research campuses a lay person’s perspective, I found a lot of complexity, in Daresbury, Norwich and Cambridge, and the even in dealing with the terms. I would not have International Space Innovation Centre at Harwell. known until I read more carefully what “responsive-mode” This is a vital investment in our research base, particularly research was—I would have referred to it as blue-skies life sciences and space industries, which are critical for research—as opposed to “targeted” research. What delivering economic growth. This investment is not interests me in all this important talk of research and intended to reverse the announcements in the spending 339 Science and Technology Committee[8 JUNE 2011] Science and Technology Committee 340 review, but it demonstrates the Government’s commitment 2010 showed the Government’s commitment to continue to research and their willingness to invest prudently as to provide additional support to promote the uptake and when additional funds become available. of science. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of The spending review announced that key scientific Chilthorne Domer, that Research Councils UK’s cross- infrastructure projects would go ahead. There will be a council programmes bring together partners across £69 million investment in the Diamond synchrotron at government and business to address global challenges Harwell in Oxfordshire, and £220 million capital funding and create growth opportunities for the United Kingdom. for the UK Centre for Medical Research and Innovation As well as the government Chief Scientific Adviser, in London. Since the spending review, the Government there is a strong network of departmental chief scientific have announced funding for three further projects, advisers and departmental directors of analysis across including £33 million for the birth cohort study. Government that ensure that Government have access to, and use, the best science, engineering and analytical The noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, raised the matter advice, including to address research challenges that of the government Chief Scientific Adviser’s input cut across departments. These networks work closely into Treasury meetings. Sir John Beddington cannot, with the research councils. The noble Lord, Lord of course, attend all Treasury meetings, but he meets Willis, brought the news that the Treasury has appointed regularly with the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury a chief scientific adviser today. I am delighted to and is working closely with the Treasury on the support this very welcome news. The fact that the new implications of the spending review for departmental Treasury chief scientific adviser, James Richardson, research budgets. I understand from this work that the has other duties means that he is at the heart of the overall outcome for research spending by government decision-making process in the Treasury, which should departments also looks good in the circumstances. be a very good thing. Sir John Beddington explained this in detail to the Lords Science and Technology Committee two weeks ago. The noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, worried about the The Government have emphasised their commitment MoD CSA being downgraded. The MoD recognises to health research in the National Health Service White the importance of science and engineering to its business. Paper and the spending review. The Department of This was considered carefully in planning following Health will be increasing its investment in health research the spending review. It has been decided that the in real terms over the next four years. A crucial part of MoD’s chief scientific adviser will be at director-general this will be £775 million to promote translational level, rather than permanent secretary. I understand R&D. The department has been very clear on this. that Sir John Beddington has been closely involved in this decision. He will be a member of the selection Peter Luff reported recently that the Ministry of panel, which I hope is of some reassurance to the Defence’s science and technology budget is, in cash noble Lord. terms, expected to rise over the spending review period. The nature of departmental research budgets and The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, asked about the ongoing planning means that we cannot give the noble Government’s chief social scientist. Jenny Dibden and Lords, Lord Sutherland and Lord Krebs, the final Richard Bartholomew are joint heads of the Government’s figures for every department for the next four years. I social research service. These arrangements work understand that Sir John will be sending the Science very well—it says here. In response to the noble Lord’s and Technology Select Committee information for question, “When will the CSA, DfT and BIS be departments that are in a position to provide details of replaced?”—sorry, that cannot be right—I can say their expected expenditure over the spending review that DfT and BIS are currently looking at how the period. Each year the Government publish outturn CSA function will best be delivered. This includes figures on departmental expenditure on R&D in the exploring the possibility of a shared role with science, engineering and technology statistics. This another government department to take advantage of autumn the Government will be publishing outturn the synergies and overlaps between their science, figures for all departments for 2009-10. technology and research interests. The government The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, mentioned that some Chief Scientific Adviser has been involved in these departments have had significant cuts in budget. In departments’ deliberations about the role of their general, research spending plans for other government respective CSAs and will be involved in the appointment departments are in line with the settlement that they process. have received from the Treasury in the spending review. Departments also draw upon independent advice Departments are now looking very carefully at their from science advisory councils and around 70 scientific priorities and the resources needed to deliver their advisory committees. In line with the Government’s science, research and evidence needs. They will not priorities, it is essential that advice takes place in an have all the answers overnight and should probably open and transparent way. This is why the coalition not try to set too much in stone. Going forward, Government have now included a specific reference to departments will be reviewing and updating their science the principles of scientific advice to Government in and innovation strategies to ensure that they reflect the ministerial code. Continuing with the theme of current departmental priorities and cross-cutting issues independence, the Government restated their commitment and that policy-making delivery and evaluation is to the Haldane principle in December. The long- evidence based. established Haldane principle continues to work well. The noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, was concerned It protects scientific independence and excellence and about science in schools. The Department for Education’s is one of the key factors that makes the UK research The Importance of Teaching—The Schools White Paper base a world leader. 341 Science and Technology Committee[LORDS] European Union Bill 342

[BARONESS WILCOX] international organisations, including the European In response to the third point made by the noble Union and its existing competences—that is not the Lord, Lord Sutherland, despite commitments to reduce subject of this Bill—the United Nations, the World net migration, the Government recognise the value Bank and others. Those are not the issues to which I that academics and scientists bring to our economy. refer. However, it seems to me at least conceptually Recent changes to the points-based system have made possible that some things will happen which require an provision for this. The truly world class will come urgent response and where it will be clear to the through the exceptional talent route in tier 1 where Government of the day that they need to act in entry is not contingent upon a job offer. Otherwise, concert with others in ways which are not covered by others will be prioritised through tier 2 where points current arrangements. Before any noble Lord says that are awarded for high-level qualifications. he cannot conceive of such circumstances arising, I The coalition Government have continued to assure the House that they will do so. They will arise, demonstrate our clear commitment to evidence-based for example, around an environmental disaster or a policy making and to science and research by giving a financial disaster. The purpose of this amendment is real boost to our world-class research base. This puts to make provision for the circumstances in which they science and research in a privileged position. We will will arise. work hard to ensure that investment delivers economic When we talked about the meltdown of the world benefit, creating new businesses and improving existing banking system, noble Lords rightly pointed out that ones, attracting highly skilled scientists and technicians the emergency arrangements that were made took a and international business investment and improving considerable time to design and to begin to be put in public policy and services. place. Indeed, they are not in place to this day and we have not reached the end of that process. That is rather European Union Bill regrettable because it seems to me that in international terms we are without a number of the levers which we Report (1st Day) (Continued) would probably desire to have, in order to have a real 8.47 pm impact on some of those events in concert with others. The G20 made a very good effort at least at one Amendment 5B not moved. meeting, and arguably at two meetings, to try to work out some sort of architecture to deal with those circumstances. Others may disagree but I believe that Clause 3 : Amendment of TFEU under simplified if Europe had been able to speak with a more coherent revision procedure voice in the G20 meetings, it would have been much more likely to have arrived at an authoritative consensus Amendment 6 with the United States and with China in particular. Moved by Lord Triesman It seems to be within the realms of possibility, and perhaps not so fanciful either, that there could be 6: Clause 3, page 2, line 32, after second “condition” insert “, the urgency condition” circumstances—particularly in acute financial crises— where the Government might conclude that emergency Lord Triesman: My Lords, given the debates that conditions applied, they needed to be able to act under we had in Committee and the debate which we had those conditions, it was desirable for the interests of shortly before the dinner break, it is possible to speak the country and the people of the country that they to this amendment fairly briefly. Its aim is to take did act under those conditions, and that slight variations account of circumstances where the Government conclude in the current arrangements would make that more that it is in the interests of the people of the United possible. These are inevitably difficult conditions to Kingdom to act with greater dispatch than would envisage largely because every time you try to do so occur if the whole of the processes set out in other you can usually point to a set of arrangements which parts of this Bill were gone through. have already been designed to take account of them. However, we have surely learnt, certainly since late Earlier this afternoon the noble Lord, Lord Howell, 2007—we have learnt this rather harsh lesson through asked—I understand the point—“What are the 2008 and up to the present—that it is not possible to circumstances in which events might take place that predict all those circumstances, manage them, say that are difficult to put into words?”. I shall try to put at we have the levers for managing them or say that the least one such circumstance into words, but I recognise other institutions, particularly the G20 in which we immediately that it may be difficult to do so in the put such faith, are capable of doing so, partly because context of the judgments that Governments have to Europe is incapable of acting or speaking in a single make about the interests of the country when events and coherent way. I beg to move. precipitate at a rate which is not anticipated in the normal course of events. However, my ministerial experience, and that of many others in your Lordships’ Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, I am afraid the House, tells us that events happen. I think that I am noble Lord, Lord Triesman, has not persuaded me of quoting a former Conservative Prime Minister, and he the need to include an urgency condition. It seems to was entirely right—they do. Events happen and me there is absolutely nothing that prevents the UK Governments have to respond to them. We will be able from co-ordinating with other EU member states in to deal with many of them using the sovereign processes response to any natural disaster. Furthermore, if the of our own political system. Some will occur in a amendment were adopted, the ability of the UK to wider context and we will deal with them through react speedily might even be circumscribed. The 343 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 344 amendment does nothing to improve clarity; rather, it clause? We cannot afford to have an urgency clause confuses the situation, compromises legal certainty when we are transferring powers from our country to and is very subjective. Amendment 10 states: another organisation. I cannot support the amendment, “The urgency condition is where an amendment under the although I understand why the noble Lord, Lord simplified revision procedure is considered to be urgent”. Triesman, feels that it would be helpful to the Bill. I do “Considered” by whom and in what forum? It is very not think that it would be helpful to the Bill, because it unclear. I venture to submit that this amendment does would undermine its whole purpose, which is to ensure nothing to improve the clarity and certainty of the that when this country transfers major powers elsewhere, Bill. there has been proper consideration over a proper period by the proper authorities, including the Baroness Falkner of Margravine: I too oppose the Government, Parliament and the people. amendment, although I recognise that in tabling it the opposition Benches are very conscious of the leap in Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: My Lords, I need to make the dark that we are making to some extent with this a rather nerdish point. Bill. It is about future eventualities at a time of significant Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Oh no! flux in the world, and indeed in the European Union. One would need to be a clairvoyant to imagine what Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: The noble Lord, Lord might be coming down the road in terms of emergencies Stoddart, will be very upset. I accuse myself of being and urgencies that would need rather speedier action nerdish, and I hope that the noble Lord will agree that than the normal pace of change in the European I can be considered in the same class as Mr William Union. In fact I think one of the reasons why there is a Cash. disconnect between the British electorate and the Union We are talking about an amendment to Clause 3. is partly because of the very slow and cumbersome Clause 3 is about the accelerated, simplified procedure. methodology and pace of reacting to events. When I do not know why we have Clause 3 separate from there is a deep economic recession or a great financial Clause 2, but we do, and we are debating it. The or banking crisis, people out in the country want their simplified procedure cannot be used for the transfer of leaders and politicians to act speedily to deal with the competences. That is what the treaty states. Article 48(6) issues that led to those events, and perhaps would wish states that the decisions referred to in the second us to move faster than we have been capable of doing paragraph, in international fora and multilateral institutions. “shall not increase the competences conferred on the Union in the Despite recognising these things, I nevertheless oppose Treaties”. this amendment because I think what defines urgency We are talking about urgency and the use of the is so subjective and so much predicated on what the competences that the treaties have conferred. We are Government of the day, and the policy-makers on talking about urgency because that is the nature of the either side of the debate, would imagine to be urgent simplified procedure. It was invented to move fast in or not. While I think we all know what is urgent when situations where we might want to. It avoids the it hits us in the face, and it is quite right that we should convention, it avoids the full paraphernalia after and should then act speedily, enshrining it in law Parliament—you still have to consult Parliament under seems to raise a host of problems, not least again with Article 48(6), but that can be quite quick. judicial review. It also creates a basis of very subjective This is a modest amendment, unlike the previous analysis as to whether something is urgent or not, and amendment on which we voted, which was bigger. the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, in his very helpful This is a modest amendment because it simply suggests moving of the amendment, accepted that we do take that the urgency condition might be written into Clause 3, quite a long time—that even the European financial on the simplified treaty revision procedure, which is stability mechanism is going to take a leisurely pace. about urgent treaty revision and not about competence. This really goes to the heart of the argument; that it is It cannot be used to confer competences on the Union better for us to look for ways to facilitate speed and from the member states. urgency when the urgent situation arises, rather than to seek to enshrine it in law at this stage. It seems to me appropriate and modest to say that, when we are dealing with treaty revisions or decisions 9pm taken under Article 48(6)—which, by definition, will happen only in a hurry—we should be able to have an Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I have read accelerated procedure here in this country. We might the amendment, which would restrict the operation of accept that the general view was correct: this was an the Bill to matters of urgency. That is what it is about. emergency and we needed to move fast. Of course, if I thought that the Bill was about major transfers of you did not accept that, you would have said “No” in power, not just little changes to ongoing, day-to-day Brussels and the accelerated procedure would have matters in the EU; it is about major transfers of stopped, because it still requires unanimity.By definition, competence or powers. Whenever you are transferring you are in a situation where people have thought, “We powers from this country to another institution, it haven’t got the time to do the whole shooting match”. ought not to be done in haste. There should not be This is important. The Government think it is in the urgency about it. UK interest—they voted for it. Who would decide Those sort of matters, those great matters, should whether the urgency consideration applied? It is a be decided only once all the issues concerned have question asked in this debate. The House would decide. been examined by the Government and by Parliament; Parliament would decide. If this provision was in the and then by referendum. Why do we want an urgency Bill, the Government would have to explain whether 345 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 346

[LORD KERR OF KINLOCHARD] delay, we actually think this is a sufficiently serious the urgency procedure, in their view, applied. Parliament matter to justify having a referendum”. That is entirely would vote on that. This is a parliamentary democracy— open to them, if the amendment of the noble Lord, that is where the decision should be made. Lord Triesman, is accepted. However, that amendment I do not see anything wrong with this amendment. would remove the present danger in the text, which is It seems to me that it is appropriate—particularly that there would be an absolute requirement to have a appropriate—to this clause. I supported the previous referendum because there is no potential let-out for an amendment—the bigger amendment—which would emergency, even though that is the most plausible have written it also into Clause 2, alongside the significance scenario for a treaty amendment and everyone, including condition, which sadly is still missing in Clause 2, for us, would have agreed that it was an emergency and reasons that I do not understand. Putting it in Clause 3, therefore justified the accelerated procedure. That is which the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, why I support the amendment of the noble Lord, proposes, is absolutely appropriate and I support the Lord Triesman. amendment. The Minister commented with approval, as would Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: The noble I, on the evidence that Sir John Grant gave to the Lords opposite will not be surprised to hear that I find Commons committee. Sir John Grant made two points it very difficult to accept this amendment. Coming that the Minister quoted with approval. I approve of from the Brussels angle, I remind noble Lords that in them too—although, as the Minister delicately pointed Brussels the word “urgency” relates to the French out, Sir John is a more recent permanent representative word “urgence”, which means of powerful importance. in Brussels than me. There may have been a faint I recall that week after week, month after month in connotation in the Minister’s remark that I might be a Strasbourg and Brussels, we had urgency debates which bit fuddy-duddy or out of date. I accept that; it is took place many days, weeks and sometimes months perfectly possible, and Sir John Grant is a very brilliant after the activity in question, such as a revolution man. somewhere or the Arab spring. It took me a while to Sir John said that he saw no chance of serious realise that the English meaning of the word “urgency” treaty amendment in the next few years. I agree with is quick or hurry up whereas in French it means him for a whole lot of reasons. Nobody in Brussels something that counts, something that is valued and wants it; the UK Government have said that they are something to which we should pay special attention. It not going to have it; and it is in a coalition agreement. is rather like high representative which does not mean That seems to me to be fairly conclusive, so I think Sir high at all, but important. John Grant was on pretty safe ground with that prediction. I suggest that the transfer of sovereignty falls into He also spoke of the unlikelihood—and the Minister the French “urgence” category—it is something of quoted him—of the passerelles being used in the near powerful importance—but inevitably Brussels life advances future. I agree. That seems to me to be implausible too. at the pace of a snail; it is very slow. Rather like the What the Minister did not mention—I cannot mills of God, Brussels grinds exceeding small and it remember whether Sir John Grant did—is the much takes a very long time. I have never known anything of more likely scenario in which, some time in the next importance, high-value, “urgence”, to happen at any decade, something will cause people to say, “Jeepers, speed in Brussels. Nor do I think that the transfer of we are going to have to change something. This is sovereignty, important as it is, should be done in haste. clearly a case for the accelerated procedure”. Things I honestly cannot anticipate Brussels not taking maybe do happen in the world, things change, and the chances a decade over something of real value, such as the are—I do not think this is very likely in the near transfer of sovereignty. future, though the monetary example is fresh in our When I joined the other place in 1980, I found minds—that some time in the next decade there will be myself dealing with a very important piece of legislation a need seen by most people, possibly by us as well, for on intellectual property. It was data protection and a change, and if it is to be done quickly then the intellectual property in computer software. When I chances are that people will use Article 48(6) procedure. arrived in the House of Lords, a decade later, I found that the Bill had been to Brussels and come back to Lord Wallace of Saltaire: May I, with apologies, the Lords and it was still in an active, first-step, ask a nerdish question of the noble Lord? If I understand consultation process. Two years later, when I arrived Article 48(7) correctly, it suggests that urgency can be in the European Parliament, being lucky enough to be carried through at the fastest in six months. Is that elected there in 1999, I found the Bill was in the correct? European Parliament. It was just about to leave the European Parliament when I left a decade later. Powerfully Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: I do not think that is what important things such as that take a considerable the treaty says, but yes, it is likely that that is the case. length of time. How much longer do we imagine that Of course, any treaty amendment requires ratification the transfer of sovereignty would take? by whatever the national procedures are. I am talking During the past decade, we in the United Kingdom about an emergency situation in which most people have very actively supported the enlargement of the think, “We have to do this pretty fast”. European Union. It now has 27 states and more are We could still have our referendum. If the amendment coming in: Croatia tomorrow and the Balkans the day in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, were after. As a result, quite properly, the slowness has accepted, there is nothing to stop the Government of increased tremendously. It is no longer possible to put the day saying to Parliament, “Despite all the risks of things through even at a reasonable speed; now things 347 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 348 are slower than slow. That is why I do not see a Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, we all understand referendum coming our way even if this Bill goes that events happen—although I believe that what Harold through in its entirety, which I hope and pray it will, Macmillan said was, “Events, dear boy, events.” We for maybe at least a decade. Brussels is simply not able also understand that in a crisis Governments get together to think that way. The confusion of the euro, combined and take the necessary decisions to deal with that with the continuing enlargement, has made the whole crisis. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, rightly said system so slow, and I do not think that we will see a that we cannot envisage what sort of crisis we might referendum in the next 15 years or so. Urgency, in be facing in five to 10 years’ time or even in two years’ English terminology, is simply not available. time. The G20 is a very good example of the sort of body which has come to operate relatively effectively, 9.15 pm as a form of consultation about a number of global Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, if you do not problems. However, the G20 is of an entirely different mind me saying very briefly, I find the debate that we quality from the European Union. If there were a have been having since dinner of singular unreality. It crisis, the relevant Governments would necessarily get reached its apotheosis in the last speech, which told us, together and have to act, but they would undoubtedly “Keep calm dear, nothing is going to happen for act by consensus. That would be different from agreeing 16 years. Everything is going so slowly, as they will be to change the structures and competences of a European translating urgency from ‘urgence’ and back again and Union, which is not simply an international organisation making something of it”. I am sorry, but you have to but a structure of law, a semi-confederal institution of look back only one year to see a circumstance where which we have become a co-operative member. there was a major crisis, when the Greek economy was Having had some informal conversations across the on the point of collapse and the European Union, table with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I note that including Britain, decided that something needed to Article 48(6) states— be done about it because otherwise there was a very real risk for the solidarity of the whole European Lord Davies of Stamford: I thank the Minister for financial structure. It is no good saying it will not giving way. Is not the argument that he is adducing happen. It has happened. Please do not tell me that it one that entirely excludes even the theoretical possibility could not happen again. that the European Union might turn out to be the best So what happens then if you lock all the doors and instrument for addressing the crisis that we are talking throw all the keys out of the window, as the Government about? If the crisis can be dealt with by consensus with are absolutely determined to do? Their supporters other Governments—the G20 or whatever—that is have explained with enormous eloquence this evening well and good, but what the Government are doing in how jolly happy we will all be when we throw all the the Bill is excluding the possibility that the European keys away and we cannot unlock the door—we cannot Union may be the most effective instrument for solving do anything in less than two or three years or something the problem and might need additional powers for like that—and we shall all be happy. What happens? that emergency. They find some other way of doing it. That is what will happen now. And the British Government will Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the Bill in no help to find another way too, because it will be in our way excludes the European Union from being the interests to do so. appropriate body to respond. It is entirely appropriate This debate is a matter of total unreality. It has no that bodies such as the European Council and the meaning whatsoever. If the Government had a bit of Council of Ministers in its various forms should take common sense, they would see that the amendment decisions. How those decisions are taken, and what moved by the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, does have their legal implications will be, are matters probably quite a lot of sense in it. best not dealt with in an emergency. Where there might be a transfer of competences, one should consider Lord Flight: My Lords, I suggest that what the it not under emergency conditions but rather more noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has just said illustrates the coolly. very reason why this amendment is undesirable. It is I was about to quote Article 48(6), which states that not in the interests of this country to get sucked that the decision under the simplified procedure, into bailing out economies that have gone off the rails “shall not enter into force until it is approved by the Member as a result of the problems of sharing a currency. Had States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements”. there been a requirement for a referendum, the Chancellor That is why urgent decisions will take 18 to 24 months of the Exchequer of the previous Government would to get through the various constitutional requirements, not have been in a position to have committed this country and why the question of what we mean by urgency to things to which he should not have committed us. does not limit the British Government. Charming and likeable though the speech of the It is of course very difficult to foresee what sort of noble Lord, Lord Kerr, may have been, this amendment crises we might face, or how and in what framework is just another excuse for watering down the basic principle we and others would respond. The European Union of this Bill. It is of less magnitude than the last exists as a framework and therefore may very often be amendment. Urgency is a subjective matter—it could used as such, and we and others would work through arise; it could not arise—but the basic principle of the it. It has plenty of competences and the ability to take Bill is that the elite of British Governments will no longer decisions by consensus in response to a crisis. However, be able to commit this country to loss of sovereignty that does not transfer powers and competences. That and other such matters without the consent of the people. is the difference between taking urgent decisions and 349 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 350

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] democracy that the power to arrive at a conclusion changing the nature of procedures, structures, powers about what the national interest is is vested in a and competences. With respect, I say that the urgency Government that enjoy the confidence of the House question is not an important part of the Bill. There of Commons and can proceed on that basis. In that would be sufficient time to complete the processes set sense, from a political point of view, it is a completely out by the Bill, by an Act of Parliament and, where objective test. I know whether the Government of the required, a referendum of the British people. day enjoy the confidence of the House of Commons The second part of the condition is that the treaty precisely because I know what would happen if they change should be in the national interest. My noble did not. It is a very simple matter. friend Lord Howell said, when debating a previous Let us not deal with this kind of discussion as amendment, that the national interest is not an entirely though it were incumbent upon us to do something objective concept. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord like Boyle did, in showing the way in which the volumes Triesman, agrees that the coalition has come together of gases under pressure react to it, which can then be in the national interest and is acting in what we think set out in a textbook to be tested to kingdom come in is the national interest—although he may have a different any laboratory in the land. Let us deal with it as view of the national interest from members of the political people—I was going to say, if the noble Lord, coalition. Politics revolves around our contesting views Lord Pearson, was in his place, as humble members of of Britain’s best national interests. Therefore, the concept the political class. Let us deal with it as political is not an entirely objective one that we can usefully people—with a small p—who understand perfectly write into the Bill. No Government would agree to any well the convention which decides what the national treaty change at EU level if they were not of the firm interest is at any time. I am sorry, but I cannot buy that belief that such a move was consistent with the national kind of argument. I do not think it treats us credibly. interest. No Administration would ever agree to a I say to the noble Lord, Lord Flight, that it was treaty change if they considered that it would be never my intention in moving this amendment that the against the interests of the United Kingdom. Therefore, Bill should be watered down. I do not like that I assure noble Lords that the national interest, as we interpretation being ascribed to what I have said. I see it, is at the heart of every major decision that this have always tried in the House, whether on the government Government take on EU matters—as I assume was Benches or on these Benches, to be very candid and the case with the previous Government and will be for very frank—it does not always win you friends—about any subsequent Government. what I am doing and why I am doing it, because it Having answered those questions, I urge noble Lords seems to me that life is a lot easier if you try to do it to withdraw the amendment. We have had a useful but that way. The reason is not to water it down but to general debate about what might happen in a hypothetical make certain that Ministers in any Government have crisis that none of us can yet quite envisage, let alone the kind of authority and ability to act in circumstances consider what immediate changes in powers or which come along that we cannot predict. competences it would require. I am not omniscient, and I cannot say any more than anybody else in the House what I know will Lord Triesman: My Lords, just to take any possible happen or what kinds of competence we may require lingering tension out of the highly charged environment at a particular time to deal with those issues. I will be of this Chamber—I would hate to wind up everybody candid with the House: I did not expect the collapse of inappropriately—I will tell you now that, in a few Lehman Brothers; I was astonished to know that we minutes, I will withdraw the amendment. Before I do were within two hours of the Royal Bank of Scotland so, I have to say that, from an intellectual point of collapsing; and I notice that sovereign debt crises are view, these have been some of the more depressing occurring more rapidly and are likely to occur more arguments that I have heard. I do not mean to say that rapidly. I just say to the House no more than that it is in order to be rude. I just think that we must allow extremely likely that we will face more such circumstances. ourselves the courtesy of being a great deal more I do not want to feel that we do not have all the levers rigorous. at our disposal in order to deal with them. As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, pointed out, it is plainly the intention of the amendment to provide a means whereby, in circumstances which are very pressing 9.30 pm and where we need potentially to adjust our capacity The decision would plainly be taken by the Government to act—this is about our capacity to act and the putting a proposition to Parliament about what is mechanisms that we can use to act—we do not deny urgent in those circumstances, and Parliament would ourselves the opportunity to do something if it is in decide it. That was the question that the noble Viscount, the national interest. Lord Trenchard, was asking. It will unquestionably be I cannot imagine that it really needed any presentation what the Government of the day judge to be urgent. I to us, but I readily accept that what constitutes the am perfectly confident, knowing our incapacity in the national interest will not be determined by some objective United Kingdom to speak other people’s languages basis, as would a demonstration of Boyle’s law of generally, that we will mean urgency to mean urgency—ce gaseous volumes. This is not a point that I have ever n’est pas le même mot de l’urgence en français. We will attempted to make. The national interest will be defined know exactly what we are saying and why we are by the Government of the day, whether a single party saying it, and we will not need to borrow anybody or a coalition. We may or may not all agree with one else’s dictionary in order to translate it. In lots of another, but it is in the nature of our parliamentary legislation, we leave ourselves with emergency powers 351 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 352 for circumstances we cannot predict in relation to national security and a wide range of other matters. Amendment 8 We do that because we are sensible, and we take the precaution of allowing ourselves the room to be able Moved by Lord Williamson of Horton to act. 8: Clause 3, page 2, line 42, at end insert “, and I come to the conclusion that I put to the House, (d) the Electoral Commission have issued a certificate but it relates to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord stating whether or not it appears to them that more than Stoddart, which, again, I understand. Of course, it 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the would be great in all circumstances if we had sufficient referendum have voted in it. notice of anything that happened to be able to go ( ) If the certificate issued under subsection (2)(d) states that through every single process and feel that we had more than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the interrogated it to the nth degree. Of course that would referendum have voted in it, the decision may be approved. be desirable. I understand that, but we do not live in a ( ) If the certificate issued under subsection (2)(d) states that fewer than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the world which affords us that luxury on every occasion. referendum have voted in it, the decision may not be approved unless— Lord Stoddart of Swindon: What I was talking (a) in each House of Parliament a Minister of the Crown has about was the transfer of great powers, which would moved a motion that the House approves Her Majesty’s be permanent; what the noble Lord has been discussing Government’s intention to approve the decision, and is matters of emergency. Those are quite different (b) each House has agreed to the motion without because, for example, on the financial crisis that has amendment.” blown up in the European Union, it is perfectly possible for the Government—indeed, the Government alone, Amendment 8 agreed. backed later by Parliament—to make decisions that might last for five years, but would nevertheless not be Amendment 9 permanent transfers of power. That was what I was trying to get at. Moved by Lord Liddle 9: Clause 3, page 3, line 4, leave out “(1)(i) or (j)” and insert “(1)” Lord Triesman: My Lords, if I misunderstood the point, I of course apologise. Lord Liddle: My Lords, I hope not to detain the I conclude my remarks by saying that this does not House long on this. In a sense, with this amendment involve the same sort of transfer of powers as under we are trying to skin the same cat in a different way. It Article 48(6). It is not intended to do so. We have all is designed to extend the scope of the significance acknowledged that it has a different standing. clause in order precisely to give our Government, My key point is this, and I address it to the government because we want to support them and make them Front Bench to think about—even though they obviously effective in the European Union, the flexibility to cope cannot respond to it this evening in this particular with the unforeseen. We have made this point many debate. The G20 was as good an attempt as anybody times in these debates. Basically, the Government point- could make in the circumstances to try to find some blank refuse to accept its validity. They argue, first, way of codifying the responses to the financial crisis that all the red lines and every issue in the Bill is of across the world. Thinking of it professionally almost—as constitutional significance, including the full list of an economist—I think that it was a pretty poor outcome issues in Schedule 1, and that therefore any move on and the G20 did not do what it was supposed to do. these issues should require a referendum. That is the The key players did not play the roles. It may be that a Government’s position on my first point. number of people, including eminent politicians from Secondly, they would argue that the EU has plenty this country, talked up what the G20 was capable of of competences to act already in most situations, doing and what its successes might be, but when we which is true, but that does not cover any potential look at it in the cold light of day, we do not have in the new situations which we cannot foresee, to which my international financial system the protections that some noble friend Lord Triesman referred. Thirdly, they pretended there would be as a consequence of that argue that when we talk about circumstances that meeting. There is no doubt in my mind that one of the might occur which would require action, we cannot reasons for that is that a number of coherent economies name any of these circumstances and that it is all in Europe that were used to mature financial operation hypothetical and nonsensical. found themselves without the tools to respond together, and that had a profound effect. I beg leave to withdraw This amendment is on the assumption that it is not the amendment. hypothetical and nonsensical. We can already see brewing in the European Union the makings of another big Amendment 6 withdrawn. step forward towards fiscal federalism being considered at a senior level within the Union. One just has to read the—in many ways wonderful—parting speech made Amendment 7 by Jean-Claude Trichet last week when he received the Karlspreis in Aachen. It was about the achievements Moved by Lord Howell of Guildford of the European Union and all Members of the House 7: Clause 3, page 2, line 38, after “decision” insert “also” should read it. He said that as a result of the present crisis, not today but the day after tomorrow, there Amendment 7 agreed. would be a need for the creation of a European 353 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 354

[LORD LIDDLE] Answer of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, answering finance ministry and for member states to concede Questions on Monday, when he said how important it sovereignty over economic questions, particularly when was to maintain the solidarity of the UK with the they were in difficulties and failing to conform to eurozone through all the common work that we are European rules. I can understand his frustration in doing together? Is that not even more important now dealing with the situations in Greece, Portugal and that we are going to have the pan-European financial Ireland. supervisory agency based in London? What if a crisis If I was still an adviser in No. 10 Downing Street, emerges that needs to be dealt with precipitately by all my reaction would be to say, “Gosh, there’s something national Governments together? potentially quite big here coming down the track. We may well have changes of Government in France and Lord Liddle: The noble Lord, Lord Dykes, is so Germany in the next couple of years. We have got to right. I actually congratulate the Government in many do some hard thinking ourselves about how we anticipate respects on their attitude. The Chancellor of the Exchequer the situation”. I would say to the British Prime Minister made a speech in Paris earlier this year in which he that if he wants to avoid another big treaty, he has to said, “We are not in the euro but by gosh we want the think about how, on all the relevant issues—economic euro to succeed. It is absolutely essential to our interests”. governance, supervision of the banks, the structural This was what Mr Osborne said. Some Members on reforms necessary to make the European economy the Conservative Benches may not recognise that point competitive and the advance of the single market—we but that is where Britain’s national interests lie and we can make Europe more effective. If necessary we have to have to have the flexibility to deal with these situations. be prepared to look at small changes in the treaties I do not know what precise flexibilities would be which we could make under the simplified revision required but we have to have that. procedure that would convince our partners that serious action could be taken that would not require another big In terms of historical parallels, I am reminded of leap forward. Therefore, that is what I would be doing. Harold Macmillan’s wonderful quote, “Events, dear boy, events”. Of course it was Harold Macmillan as These issues are likely to be right at the top of the Chancellor of the Exchequer who had failed to realise agenda in the next two or three years. On page 14 of the significance of what was happening at Messina this wretched Bill, in Schedule 1, we see how it would and then woke up later to the reality of the treaty of inhibit any British Government from considering even Rome and the threat that this presented to Britain’s the slightest change in decision-making processes in position in the European Union. these crucial areas. In Schedule 1(2) we see that referenda would be required on any changes in the approximation Harold Macmillan wrote in his diary—using the of national laws affecting the internal market, any language of a man who had fought in the First World changes in the broad guidelines of economic policies, War and lived through those experiences in a different any changes in the adoption of provisions replacing age from that in which, thankfully, we are living in—that, the protocol on the excessive deficit procedure and any “If we were to allow the French and the Germans changes in the role of the European Central Bank on together to create a united Europe with Britain not prudential supervision. These are precisely the issues being a part of it, we would be sacrificing everything that are going to be at the top of the agenda in that our men had fought for in two world wars”. That European Union policy-making in the next few years, was his view in the 1950s. Our view today should be yet we are putting a ball and chain around the feet of decided on the basis of a proper calculation of our our Ministers, because we know that Ministers are not national interest. We need to be fully engaged in all the going to put forward anything that would require a questions affecting the European Union. We ought referendum, and we are preventing Britain from playing not to have this ball and chain, and we should have the role it should be playing in the next few years on some flexibility. That is why I urge the Government, these issues. even at this late stage in the consideration of the Bill, to think about how it could be amended to give Some noble Lords may argue that these issues are Ministers the pragmatic flexibility they need in order nothing to do with Britain because we are not in the to represent our national interests effectively in Brussels euro. I think that that is completely wrong. Although and in order that Britain can live up to its role as one we are not in the euro, the success of the Government’s of the leading partners in the European Union. I beg economic and political strategy very largely depends to move. on the success of the euro area to which a huge proportion of our exports goes. If we are going to get a rebalancing of the British economy into exports and 9.45 pm investment, we have to put forward policies for the Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, I think that success of the euro area, because we will not succeed this is what might be called the Rumsfeld amendment, in those ambitions unless we engage constructively in because it has been moved to deal with the unknown that debate. Yet we are hampered completely from unknowns. That is what it is all about. I had not engaging constructively in it because of the conditions remotely intended to speak in this debate, but the of this Bill. So let us be pragmatic. Let us give ourselves noble Lord’s enthusiasm is so infectious. He looks at the ability to act in our national interests. the European Union and sees that nothing has ever gone wrong with it. We ought always to be in there Lord Dykes: I am most grateful to the noble Lord and engaging with it. We must be careful not to miss for giving way. Is not that point even more relevant the train. We must always be positive regardless of when one thinks of the very helpful and positive what is happening. He tells us about the wonderful 355 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 356 speech that Monsieur Trichet has made, saying that we Lord Flight: Would the noble Lord give even just a ought to have fiscal union in order to save the euro. No little bit of credibility to the argument that the problem mention is made that that comes out of the ashes of of different economies sharing the same currency is the disastrous ruin of monetary union. that the costs of some in the southern part of Europe I think it was the noble Lord who used the same have gone up 35 per cent while Germany’s costs have arguments to try to persuade us to join the euro. He only gone up 10 per cent, so they have a big said that we are losing influence. Even though the euro competitiveness problem, which is part of their fiscal has now itself faced enormous problems and even problem? In the case of Spain and Ireland, the problem though some of my noble friends on the Back Benches is that they have had a low rate of interest that is have said that we shall never be able to have a single unsuitable for their own domestic rate of inflation, currency area without a fiscal union, we are told, causing real interest rates to be negative. That caused “That is ridiculous. Now fiscal union is just another everyone to borrow too much and the banks to lend great step forward. We have got to be positive about it”. too much, so they have had an overlending problem, The noble Lord also says that the European stability in part caused by the fact that they are sharing an mechanism is another thing that we are missing out inappropriate currency. If they had their own currency, on, and that we ought to be involved in it. Of course, they could devalue when they had such a crisis. the ESM is in complete contradiction to the whole basis on which the euro was set up. It is not because it Lord Davies of Stamford: I am getting signals, quite was an unexpected disaster—it was a predicted disaster. rightly so, from my Front Bench so I really must not The reason the ESM had to be created was because respond to the substance of that because I shall be the treaties totally forbade it. Yes, we do face some turning this into a debate—which we ought to have in unknown unknowns. this House on these important matters—on fiscal and I apologise to the House because we should not all monetary issues in the European Union at present. I give our own views on Europe, but I was completely hope that the Government take note of the obvious provoked by the noble Lord, who seems to be like interest on their own Benches in having the opportunity Alice through the looking-glass: every disaster is seen to discuss this matter and exchange our various as a step forward. We just ought to take a step back, perspectives on it. I wanted to intervene really just to hold our breath, and think about it a little. support my noble friend’s excellent amendment. If it is accepted by the House, it will get rid of a large Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, I am going to amount—80 or possibly 90 per cent of the damage—that resist the great temptation to respond to the noble could be done by this Bill. If this amendment goes Lord, Lord Lamont. I do so not because I do not through, Clause 3(4) would then read: think that he is completely wrong, which I think he is. “The significance condition is that the Act providing for the He is quite wrong to write off the euro in this way, and approval of the decision states that … the decision falls within he is wrong to suppose that we would not have had to section 4 only because of provision of the kind mentioned in face a systemic crisis caused by fiscal collapse in subsection (1) of that section, and … the effect of that provision in relation to the United Kingdom is not significant”. Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Whether or not the euro had ever existed, we would have needed to take intelligent In other words, the only exemption from the need to and concerted action. The noble Lord, with whom I have a referendum would be in relation to matters that have debated these matters with great pleasure on were not significant for the United Kingdom. Surely, many occasions over the years, is as wrong as he has to accept this particular amendment is a cost-free always been. I am happy to give him good money in a concession on the part of the Government. I cannot private conversation afterwards that the euro is far believe that the Government actually want to provide from being in a state of crisis and that it will survive. for having a referendum on something that is not significant for the United Kingdom. Am I perhaps I hope noble Lords understand the very important wrong about this? distinction between a fiscal crisis, which has hit a number of countries that are members of the eurozone We need to probe the Government’s logic a little and have the euro currency, and a crisis for the euro here, because what an extraordinary thing it would be itself. Youcan have a fiscal crisis caused by Governments if the Government want to take through Parliament a overborrowing irrespective of the currency in which Bill providing for the possibility of having referenda they are borrowing. Even if those countries had been on issues that are not significant for the United Kingdom. members of the dollar area and had borrowed so The Government cannot turn around and use the much that the financial markets were in danger of argument that what is significant or not might be a ceasing to refinance them, there would have been a subjective and difficult matter to determine at any one crisis affecting them; and because of the number of point, because they have already accepted in this Bill, assets that we inevitably hold in those countries, which as it stands, the need to make a distinction between are major trading partners of ours here, we could not significant and non-significant. That argument cannot have been immune to a fiscal crisis irrespective of the be made. The only argument that can be made is that currencies involved. we need to provide for having referenda on something that is not significant, which does not make the slightest Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Does the noble Lord sense. I ask noble Lords to envisage a scenario in accept that the ECB is technically bankrupt? which we have a referendum in this country on something that everybody accepts is not significant for the United Lord Davies of Stamford: I accept nothing of the Kingdom. We ask the electorate to focus their mind kind—the ECB has a triple-A credit rating, as I am on a difficult, technical and perhaps rather abstruse sure the noble Lord knows. matter—maybe a whole package of such matters, 357 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 358

[LORD DAVIES OF STAMFORD] Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, perhaps it is which is what the Government have been suggesting for me to try to put this amendment back in its box, recently; to take the time to master the relevant briefs from which it seems to be rapidly escaping into fascinating or at least make up their minds on this matter; and to issues such as reform of the House of Lords. I am not take time off from their work or from their leisure sure whether that is immediately germane to this activities and go to the polls on something that they amendment, which does not involve any transfer of are told in advance is not significant for the United powers or competencies to the European Union as far Kingdom. as I can see from the debate. I shall, if I may, abandon that and return to the amendment which the noble Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: Since the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, moved with fiery eloquence. He Lord has such confidence in the judgment of Ministers was frank enough to admit that the purpose of the that he wishes to recentralise the possible decision-making amendment was an attempt to say, I think his phrase that would come through referenda, why does he not was, the same thing in a different way. I shall try to have confidence that the judgment of Ministers would avoid giving the same answer in a different way, but I be that something inessential would not come to am afraid that the answer I am going to give will not Parliament in the first place? There is an illogicality in please him very much. Anyway, I will do my best. his circular argument. The amendment seeks to extend the scope of the significance condition beyond the two types of transfer Lord Davies of Stamford: There is no illogicality at of power identified by Clause 4(1)(i) and Clause 4(1)(j). all. There is no need to provide for a referendum on We had a similar amendment, did we not, in Committee? something which is not significant for the United I explained at that stage that the significance condition Kingdom unless the Government believe that they as drafted applies only where there may be a proposal might, at some point, wish to have such a referendum, for treaty change under the simplified revision procedure which I regard as an utter absurdity. It would be an which would result in a transfer of power—I shall insult to the electorate; it would be treating the whole come to the competence issue in a moment—from the electoral system of this country in a thoroughly frivolous UK to the EU, as defined by the criteria in Clause 4(1)(i) way.I have to ask the Government: what is the purpose— and Clause 4(1)(j), namely treaty changes which seek what is the logic, because it is not clear to me at to impose or extend a requirement obligation or all—in providing for the possibility of referenda on sanction on the UK. It is only then that an assessment non-significant subjects? It would be an utter contradiction by the Minister is required as to its significance. As I in terms. said at the time, the significance condition is applied deliberately to such a limited range of proposals in I have to mention to the House a matter which I order to establish a transparent and un-fuzzy, un-grey, must not go into in any detail for fear of breaking the unequivocal set of criteria, for Parliament as well as relevance rule. I shall not do that, but I need to refer to for the people, for which a referendum will be required the fact that a week or two ago the Government under the Bill. published a Bill on reform of the House of Lords which provides for fundamental changes to this House, and therefore to the legislature of this country, without 10 pm providing for a referendum at all. So we have a situation We agree that a minor proposal concerning in which the same Government are saying, on one administrative procedure need not constitute a transfer hand, “We have to change the House of Lords in a of power or competence. Therefore, it would be fundamental way and we cannot have a referendum disproportionate to have a referendum before the UK on it”, and at the same time saying, “We have to have could agree. The whole tableau of suggestions that referenda on changing the rules on qualified majority referenda would be applied to these minor matters voting on taking decisions about the future of the that I have described simply does not arise. We also public prosecutor’s office in the European Union”— want to ensure that the amount of latitude for Ministers something idiotic like that. Now they come forward is limited to maintain consistency. That is a deliberate and say, “No, actually we need to provide for referenda purpose of the Bill. However, the amendment would on explicitly non-significant matters”. What an go the other way. It would involve the extension of the extraordinary contradiction. significance condition, which is of concern to the I see that, for once, I have the agreement of the Government and is not in line with our purposes. noble Lords, Lord Flight and Lord Hamilton, as well I should make it absolutely clear that there would as other distinguished Members opposite. Maybe the be no value in extending the significance condition to Government, in responding, should not just turn to the criteria that are in Clause 4(1)(a) to (h). Those are me; they should turn to their supporters on their own the paragraphs that come before the two to which it Back Benches. They certainly need to turn to the does apply. Each of these criteria relates to a transfer country to explain the logic of the Bill, because, whatever of competence. At the beginning of the Committee it is, it does not appear to be coherent or something stage, the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, pointed out accurately that has been properly thought through. I am sure that that measures under the simplified revision procedure it is not deliberate hypocrisy—I would not dream of cannot be used to extend the EU’s competence; accusing noble Lords of that. Maybe it is some kind of Article 48(6) of the Treaty on European Union specifically confusion, but we need to know what it is, because stipulates that. Therefore, to extend the significance what they are bringing forward seems to have no sense condition, as suggested by these amendments would at all either from the rational or the pragmatic point of create a sort of loophole through which you could view, or to be credible in any way. drive a coach and horses. 359 European Union Bill[8 JUNE 2011] European Union Bill 360

Transfers of competence and questions of whether the light. We can only do that if we are prepared to to give up UK vetos or emergency brakes in such very move away from these grey areas that are constantly sensitive areas as tax, social policy, justice and home being sought by these various amendments and defend affairs—not at all trivial areas—will be left once again our actions clearly to this House and to the people. to the discretion of Ministers. They will determine The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, had some further whether the British people should be consulted. Therein remarks on a theme that has run through many of lies the problem that we are all trying to address, and these discussions; namely that somehow the Bill would which has led to so much distrust and the feeling that weaken our hand in the European Union, marginalise Ministers will not necessarily be able to say no, which us and prevent Ministers from dealing with certain noble Lords on the Benches opposite urged as being situations that lay ahead. The Bill will have no impact the simple answer. Why do the Government not just on the UK’s ability to play an active leading role in say no? There is not sufficient confidence that that will negotiating and shaping the legislation agreed in the happen because it has not happened in the past. Any European Union out of the provisions of the existing move now to extend the significance clauses in the way treaties. The day-to-day business of the EU is not suggested would leave the British people with very within the scope of the Bill. The effect on our negotiating little confidence that the Bill will prevent a repetition hand for changes is not in question. We can, and will, of the past, when powers and competences were still continue to participate and negotiate in any treaty transferred to the European Union without people change or use of the passerelle without hindrance. being given the say that they were promised. Any proposition to the contrary is not founded on the The noble Lord, Lord Empey, said in Committee: facts or practice. “Disillusionment has crept in because over a prolonged period I return to the remarks that I quoted and which the of years Governments of different persuasions have made promises on these matters which they simply have not kept”.—[Official noble Lord, Lord Kerr, elaborated on. The European Report, 26/4/11; col. 72.] Scrutiny Committee asked our very distinguished permanent rep in 2003-07, Sir John Grant, how he That is where the difficulty has arisen. That is the might have operated had the Bill been in place. He problem that we are addressing with the aim of replied that, strengthening public support for the Union, which is not strong, particularly at a time when the Union faces “since by definition the Council’s working groups and the Council difficulties. I hope no one is suggesting that there are of Ministers worked within the competence of the EU and as no such difficulties; they are being faced. The system, there could be no negotiations on legislation where there was no competence, the Bill, which concerns itself with competence or our commitment to it and our membership need public changes in voting procedure, would have made no difference”. support. We must overcome that disillusionment. Here we have the voice of reality, of the practitioner, Without the parliamentary and referendum locks— speaking against the theories, extravaganzas and both of which are in the Bill, as we know—that we possibilities that remain ill defined and do not coincide seek to include, we could condone so-called competence with the way that the European Union works. The creep. It is possible; we have at least to ask whether it whole proposition that there must be add-ons of power, could be condoned through the simplified provision additional treaties, an abandonment of vetoes and procedure, even though, technically, the TEU rules transfers of power to the European Union is a vague that out. I certainly do not suggest that the EU has future pattern that simply does not fit with the reality tried or will try to smuggle transfers of competence of how the European Union is developing and is past member states. However, while the Union is grounded tackling all sorts of issues. in law and must operate within the express limitations of the treaties, we must remain vigilant to any proposal No doubt there will be crises ahead. Of course under Article 48(6) that might be aimed at doing just there are crises. However, there are competences to that. That is why we have arranged and crafted the Bill deal with the crises. There are all sorts of operations to ensure that Parliament will have a full and effective and patterns that can be developed to meet these role in overseeing and interrogating the judgment of things. The noble Lord talked about Jean-Claude Trichet Ministers, and in assessing whether a transfer of talking about the day after tomorrow and the possibility competence may be taking place under a particular of a finance minister emerging—a sort of grand treasurer proposal. That is a clear message sent by the Bill—that of the European Union. The idea that such things are the people and Parliament will have their say on possible, that propositions on such major and central specific treaty changes and measures—and it is a more issues of our sovereign control of our finances could effective route to a more open and accountable relationship be brought forward without the consultation of the between the UK, its peoples and the European Union. British people, is absolutely incredible. In Committee, the Government were accused of I hope that these matters do not come forward. cynicism by some noble Lords for including the areas However, if they did, they would raise very important that we have in the automatic referendum lock. I issues that would excite considerable public comment suggest that the referendum lock that is easy for Ministers and attention and deal most intimately with out national to pick and dismantle would itself lead to an increase interests and plans. We would have to start thinking in public scepticism that decisions taken in their name about that which the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, talks at the EU level are made without their consultation or about. This thinking ought to lead rapidly to ways in consent. The amendment would deliver exactly this which we could deal with these issues in a co-operative state of affairs. It would replace the clarity and certainty and practical way. However, if it came about that there of the Bill with obfuscation and opacity.The Government was an overwhelming demand and conviction that intend to bring the UK’s relations with the EU into there should be a new treaty throughout the whole 361 European Union Bill[LORDS] European Union Bill 362

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] There is your list. There are the things that are not European Union, it would certainly have to be put to significant which will not attract a referendum. The the people. The idea that it would not be put to the noble Lord was speaking with great feeling and fervour people is absolutely incredible. but I cannot see that his worry is well founded. I am clear that this amendment would not assist the purposes Lord Davies of Stamford: I am most grateful to the of the Bill and would undermine certain values and noble Lord for giving way. With the greatest respect, aims of the coalition’s European policy. On that basis, this amendment is about having a referendum, or not I strongly urge the noble Lord to withdraw it. having a referendum, on matters the effect of which—to quote the Bill— Lord Liddle: My Lords, I will withdraw the amendment, “in relation to the United Kingdom is not significant”. but the Government are making a major mistake in Nobody in the world would argue that setting up a not listening to the points made not just from the finance ministry for the European Union was not opposition Benches but from the Cross Benches as significant for the United Kingdom; the question is well about the necessity to keep open some flexibility why we should have referenda on matters which are to deal with the unforeseen. If the United Kingdom not significant. The noble Lord has cited a lot of wants to resist major treaty change, we will almost possible scenarios, all of which involve dramatically certainly have to propose minor changes which would significant events which would obviously be significant demonstrate a willingness to deal with the practical events for us, but the big issue concerns why we should realities of the situation that the EU would be facing. have a referendum on matters which are known not to It is the Government who are not living in the real be significant for the United Kingdom. world and not facing up to what it is necessary to do if we are to be an effective member of the European Lord Howell of Guildford: I think that we are arguing Union in the years ahead. I regret very much having to in a circle because the Bill provides the significance say that, but with that I beg leave to withdraw the test and matters in paragraphs (i) and (j) of Clause 4(1), amendment. which I have described, might well be ruled by Ministers not to be significant, and therefore there would be no referendum. Furthermore, in Clause 4(1) there is a Amendment 9 withdrawn. whole string of exempt conditions where no referendum will occur. Therefore, I do not see what the noble Lord is worried about. As regards issues that are deemed to Amendment 10 not moved. be insignificant, or issues that are deemed to fall under Clause 4(4)—sorry, I said Clause 4(1), whereas I meant Consideration on Report adjourned. Clause 4(4)—Clause 4(4) states that: “A treaty or Article 48(6) decision does not fall within this section merely because it involves one or more of the following”. House adjourned at 10.13 pm. GC 27 Arrangement of Business[8 JUNE 2011] War Widows’ Association of GB GC 28

The War Widows’ Association, which gained charitable Grand Committee status in 1991 and has a strong regional network supported by a dedicated team of volunteers, has Wednesday, 8 June 2011. come to be recognised as the arms of embrace in waiting, after the immediate family, for comfort, support, understanding and camaraderie. The main event of Arrangement of Business the year is the AGM, staged over four days, when there Announcement are excursions, a dinner and some entertainment. The War Widows’ Association was formally recognised 3.45 pm in 1972 under the formidable leadership of Mrs Jill Gee from Liverpool. This followed a high profile TheDeputyChairmanof Committees(LordSkelmersdale): stand-off between another lady, a Mrs Laura Connolly, My Lords, it has been agreed that should any of the and the tax authorities, over her refusal to pay tax on Questions for short debate not run for their allotted her widows’ pension. She had arrived from Australia, hour this afternoon, the Committee will adjourn during where there is 100 per cent exemption. Prison was pleasure until the end of the hour. Therefore, each of threatened, but she succeeded in receiving important the Questions for short debate will start at a quarter to media coverage for the widows’ cause. However, it was the relevant hour. In the likely event that there are not until 1976 that the Labour Government cut the Divisions in the Chamber, this Committee will stand tax on widows’ pensions by 50 per cent, and Mrs Thatcher adjourned for 10 minutes. If any noble Lord is in full in 1979 abolished the tax altogether. flood at the time, they will of course be given injury time after the 10 minutes are up. In 1982, war widows were included for the first time in the remembrance service march past at the Cenotaph. This tradition is now a proud and important annual War Widows’ Association of Great Britain event for the association, and 2010 was no exception Question for Short Debate when the march was led by the president, my noble friend Lady Fookes. In 1989, another milestone was 3.46 pm reached when the war widows were represented for the Asked by Viscount Younger of Leckie first time at the Royal British Legion remembrance service in the Royal Albert Hall. Further achievements To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment included equal rights afforded to war widowers in they have made of the work of the War Widows’ 2003. Such national recognition has been hard fought. Association of Great Britain as it reaches its Most people would argue that the care, understanding 40th anniversary. and provision, material and financially, for war widows should be top of any national list and should be Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, this morning unconditional and total. This is surely true, but the I attended a most moving and uplifting service in the reality is that improvements for war widows have often Guards Chapel to commemorate the 40th anniversary been halting over the years. of the founding of the War Widows’ Association. I welcome the work undertaken by this Government. Quite understandably, and quite rightly, much time is On 16 May, the Armed Forces covenant was announced, given in this country, in the way we do best, to and the sentiments are encouraging. I quote: remembering all those who we have served in the “The Government have no higher duty than the defence of the forces, those who have died and those who have been realm, and the nation has no greater obligation than to look after wounded—some very seriously. The service on this those who have served it”. memorable day allowed time to reflect on a group no The Statement said that the, less important: those who are left bereft and devastated by the loss of loved ones serving in the Army, Navy “families and those who have lost a loved one in service, all and Air Force—the widows and widowers, of whom deserve our support and respect”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/5/11; col. 25.] there are over 30,000 in the UK. It is therefore a great privilege for me to open this debate this afternoon on The covenant is a result of ideas drawn up by Professor the association, which by happy coincidence—or by Strachan, who reported last December and highlighted design, I am not sure which—falls on the same day as the need, inter alia, to introduce a community covenant the service. It is the first debate in the House of Lords for forging new links with and between the Armed on this important subject, and it provides a good Forces, local authorities and communities. My right opportunity for me and for all speakers to help to raise honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence the profile of the association, to assess its achievements said: and to set the stage for its future, looking forward to “The armed forces covenant is not just about words; it is about the next 40 years. actions”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/5/11; col. 26.] The term “war widows” is an evocative catchphrase An external reference group has been established to and is a broad description, carrying considerable meaning, monitor progress. We should expect such progress and for an association that represents not just those women actions to include the needs of those represented by who have lost husbands in conflict but husbands who the War Widows’ Association. References in the paper have lost wives. A loss can be the result not just of war are not obvious, but I welcome the introduction of in the Armed Forces but of general service, whether by scholarships for children of the bereaved service families. accident, illness, of wounds suffered many years ago I ask my noble friend the Minister what specific plans or indeed of friendly fire. there are for supporting war widows in the covenant. GC 29 War Widows’ Association of GB[LORDS] War Widows’ Association of GB GC 30

[THE VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE] care needs. I trust that under the auspices of the There are several further issues to raise. Following a covenant these specific issues will be given due attention bereavement, a widow is likely to experience extreme and acted upon. emotion from a broad range—shock, trauma, grief, The War Widows’ Association has worked tirelessly denial, anger, loneliness and depression, to name a to develop a strong national voice. It is clearly heard. few. The Ministry of Defence and the three services Its objectives now should include recognition within handle with great sensitivity the immediate aftermath the covenant, ensuring ease of contact with new widows of loss. However, it can take much more time—if they and increasing membership from the current 10 per wish it at all—for the bereaved to accept an invitation cent of total. This will help create more impact in to join the War Widows’ Association. Not least, many seeking further government help for this determined, do not wish to be labelled a widow. Many do not even proud and resilient group. I wish the association every wish to venture out. success. It is partly this challenge of engagement and a 3.55 pm technical firewall created by the Data Protection Act that may explain why only 3,000 members are registered Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: My Lords, I with the association out of a total of 30,600. It is thank the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, for bringing therefore a circuitous process to transfer contact details this important issue forward for debate today, the of those recently widowed to the War Widows’ 40th anniversary of the founding of the War Widows’ Association, despite the fact that it represents a vital Association. I declare an interest as the vice-president link in offering help from those who are best placed to of the War Widows’ Association, about which I feel help. Surely data protection laws can be bypassed to extremely privileged and humble. allow a near-seamless link to be made from the bereaved, Debates are the bread and butter of what we are via the Ministry of Defence bereavement services, to about in this House. Having been a Member for just the association. under 20 years, I could never feel as privileged as I do today to be standing up and taking part in this debate. The opportunity for a widow to visit the grave of a This morning, we had a very moving service at the spouse—a so-called pilgrimage—is vital. The Government Guards Chapel. It brought home to everyone there have provided a one-off subsidy for those who wish to what amazing women are part of the War Widows’ visit a grave. I ask my noble friend if it is the Government’s Association and how they have stuck together like intention to continue or to extend this provision. glue. The saying “when the going gets tough, the tough get going” really applies to those ladies and, as The Government’s announcement last year that the chaplain said, they know how to enjoy themselves pensions and benefits would in future be pegged to the as well. One of their great assets is that they have never consumer prices index, not to the retail prices index, portrayed themselves as victims—the majority were has had a negative impact on vulnerable groups. To widowed during the Second World War—but they what extent are the Government considering exempting include among their ranks many younger widows because certain groups in the UK from this change, including of recent operations. They portray themselves and act widows of policemen, firemen and Armed Forces as proud individuals—proud of their spouses and servicemen? what they did for their nation, and indeed for their paying the ultimate price. They are prepared to stand However, the overriding issue for war widows remains up and be counted and do what they can do to help the receipt of a fair pension. This is as relevant now as each other. They have done that for many years, which it has been in the past in the light of the number of is an enormous credit to them. young widows arising from the prolonged and challenging war in Iraq and, of course, now in Afghanistan. There The widows have many ways of expressing that are two specific issues to address. From 2005, war support for one another. This morning was one of widows whose bereavements occurred prior to April them; the annual remembrance activities in London 1973 are eligible to continue to receive a pension if are another. They also have their annual get-together. they remarry or cohabit. It was in 2005 that the I have been privileged to go to one or two—it is not Armed Forces compensation scheme was set up, with just a day but several days. They all meet up, look after widows receiving a pension for life. However, payments each other and catch up on news, too—that is very are not retrospective. Thus, there is a group of widows, important. And then on the Saturday evening, when currently numbering 4,100, whose bereavements fall the hair comes down, the frocks go on and the band post-1973 and pre-2005 and who still lose their pension starts up, you really start to ask, “Are they really that if they remarry or cohabit. old?”. There is also the arboretum. The previous Government strongly supported the role of the War Finally, a government consultation paper proposes Widows’ Association, and I am delighted to say that changes to the pension age-related increments awarded the current Government are building on that. We are to war widows. This would include abolishing the privileged to have with us today the noble Lord, Lord increment at age 65, retaining those at age 70 and 80, Astor—without sparing his blushes. Along with his but providing a final lump sum of £1,000 at age 90. fellow Minister in the MoD who is responsible for The War Widows’ Association rejects this proposal on veterans’ issues, he is very committed to supporting the grounds that the award at age 90—more than what the war widows are doing. 8,000 widows are nearing this milestone—is minimal The magazine Courage—a great title; it has been and is more likely to be given away to grandchildren going for years—provides another way for them to than to be used for necessity, such as funding future keep in touch with each other. I was reading earlier GC 31 War Widows’ Association of GB[8 JUNE 2011] War Widows’ Association of GB GC 32 today a newsletter dating back to 1987. It talked about 4.02 pm how you could win a Marks & Spencer’s voucher for Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, in the ladies. Last year, the association was able to give introducing the debate, the noble Viscount has given one to each of its members. us an opportunity to learn more about the development The War Widows’ Association is also a democratic of the War Widows’ Association of Great Britain organisation, having office and committee elections. It since its inception in 1971 and to make some comments does that because it wants to try to make sure that on the current situation. it makes progress on behalf of the people whom it Of course, 1971 was the year Laura Connelly returned represents. That includes lobbying Parliament. This from Australia, where the war widows’ pension was House has always given good support to the work that tax free, only to find that her war widows’ pension was the War Widows’ Association has done. We all remember taxed in the UK. She refused to pay the tax on her Baroness Strange, who was a wonderful advocate of pension and was supported by 14 women who battled the association. In fact, it was through her that I got successfully to remove the burden of paying taxes on involved with speaking in the Chamber on issues their pensions. A letter from Joyce Maxwell, one of affecting war widows. She was ably followed by the the founder members of the association, allows us to current president, the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, see more of the story. She tells us of her anger at who was at the service this morning and who is present the removal of tax from her pension, which she everywhere whenever there is an event. She gives characterises as, marvellous representation for, and support to, this “never enough to support a family, except in the meagrest of amazing organisation. fashions”— which I think is a wonderful phrase. However, the work goes on and there is still a lot to Campaigning by the association has resulted in achieve. The noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, significant improvements in the situation: the removal mentioned the covenant. The legislation will be coming of income tax from the war widows’pension; reinstatement to the House of Lords in the coming months and I can of the pension to war widows on cessation of second assure the Minister—he would be disappointed if I or subsequent marriage; and retention of the MoD did not—that we will be on our feet talking about occupational pension on remarriage. However, it took issues affecting the war widows and making sure that many years of sustained campaigning to achieve this they get their fair share of both representation and position. I do not think that the results that were adjustments in the covenant where needed. achieved in those days reflected very well on society’s attitude to those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. There is one area—the noble Viscount touched on We hear a great deal about sacrifice at this and other it—that I would ask the Minister to address, if he can. times of the year—and it is a true sacrifice—but to It is a difficult area because of the legislation. The make a kind of flowerpot out of it does not suit me Data Protection Act is a barrier to reaching the newly very well. widowed wives and husbands of serving personnel. We have to find a way around that because the law is Today, however, there are still financial problems to being an ass in this case and bureaucracy is preventing be faced by wives and families when husbands are us from giving the comfort and support that those killed or disabled—and, of course, large numbers of women and men may well need. heavily disabled young men are now being returned from Afghanistan and other places. The widow may As has been mentioned, the organisation started in see a marked loss of income—this is quite common 1971 and came out of the case of a war widow, Laura for women pensioners. SAGA evidence clearly Connelly, who came back from Australia. At the service demonstrates unfairness between men and women in this morning the association prayer was sung—I do general. In particular, SAGA has highlighted the fact not intend to sing it, your Lordships will be relieved to that pensions are to be uplifted more rapidly for male know. It was written by a war widow, Mrs Kay Todd, than for female pensioners. This is despite the fact that and even today, 40 years later, it encompasses what the women rely more heavily on the basic state pension as organisation is all about. It goes like this: a result of having to do most of the childcare in the family. “We will recall Our yearly tribute placing Meanwhile, the armed services are being warned The hopes and dreams that slowly had to fade that they cannot be spared from government cuts We will go on leading to changes in military expenditure that could The lonely future facing cost families thousands of pounds. Lobby groups and Knowing too well the sacrifice you made. MPs are working to achieve a rethink. The Royal We will forget British Legion and the Forces Pension Society have The loneliness and worry The pain of parting and the tears we shed given evidence to the effect that some forces families Forget as well should be exempt from the payment of pensions. The The aching and the longing expected change from the retail prices index to the Keeping our memories of the times we shared. consumer prices index will hit the military pensions We will remember hardest. That is especially true for widows and invalids. Head held high with pride We will keep vigil Despite the splendid efforts of the War Widows’ With our men who died”. Association, we may still need to press for improved pensions for members of the armed services and their The war widows have kept faith with that commitment. wives and partners. Therefore, while I pay tribute to GC 33 War Widows’ Association of GB[LORDS] War Widows’ Association of GB GC 34

[BARONESS THOMAS OF WALLISWOOD] Royal Air Force. I do not wish to appear to carp, but I the tenacity of the association, it seems to me that this must admit that one word makes me slightly cross did not reflect well on society’s attitudes to those who when I read the introduction to the thing. It talks have paid the ultimate sacrifice. Many people—the about rebuilding the Armed Forces covenant, but we noble Baroness, Lady Dean, spoke about them—have are not rebuilding anything; it has never been there put tremendous effort into supporting armed services before. “Rebuilding” defines something that has been personnel and their wives in trying to achieve the bust and requires repair. What we actually require is a appropriate recompense for tragic circumstances, which covenant to be built—to be made. It would be much they so thoroughly deserve. more dignified if we dropped the word “rebuilding” and set about trying to develop the covenant as it ought to be. 4.06 pm I draw attention to one aspect of each of the three Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I, too, congratulate parts that illustrates what I mean. The Armed Forces the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, on obtaining this covenant itself describes the levels of support on debate. I was going to congratulate him on happily page 5. The greatest level of support is due to those achieving it on the day of the service, but he modestly who are “bereaved due to Service”. That implies that told me this morning that that was not necessarily so. the most should happen for them. However, the second However, I am extremely glad that we have this document, The Armed Forces Covenant: Today and opportunity to pay tribute to the War Widows’Association Tomorrow, far from listing all the support to bereaved on the very day that it held the moving service I was families has two pages that are very largely given over fortunate enough to attend. to discussing what help they might need from the I want to mention two things about that service. inquest advice service when they go to an inquest. I First, perhaps I may say to the noble Baroness, Lady suggest that there is a disconnect here. I seriously Fookes, the indefatigable president of the association, believe that any support that needs to be given to that she read Sir William Tyndall’s timeless translation bereaved families, who are listed right at the heart of of “Corinthians” about charity quite beautifully. It is the covenant, needs to be spelled out much more something that I shall never forget. Secondly, I was clearly. sitting alongside a window whose inauguration I shall Recommendation 4.3.2.d in the third document, also never forget. It is in commemoration of a young The Government’s Response to the Report of the Task grenadier who was killed in Belfast in 1980 when he Force on the Military Covenant, refers to, was commanding my SAS troop. I remember its unveiling “a ‘shopping list’ of areas of greatest need”. and the dignity of his young wife widowed in the first year of marriage. It was moving to be sitting alongside I ask the Government whether, in close contact with that particular window. the War Widows’ Association, they could draw up a shopping list of what the association recognises to be Those of us who have had the privilege of serving the areas of greatest need, insert them into the covenant in the Armed Forces have come across colleagues and and then set out in the covenant that the Secretary of friends who early in their career have left widows. I am State should be required to report every year to Parliament extremely grateful that the noble Viscount mentioned on how that shopping list is being met. It seems to me the problems of those who risk losing their pension that that would be the best way in which to repay the because of marrying and cohabiting. I remember two debt that we owe to these remarkable people, whose colleagues in particular. One was killed in Aden three bravery and fortitude, frankly, I admire and am humbled weeks after leaving the staff college, where for a year by every day. we had lived opposite each other. He left a wife and two young children, who had the most terrible problems 4.13 pm trying to look after them. Another was the widow of a colleague who died on Bloody Sunday, after being Baroness Fookes: My Lords, my first duty is to shot in Londonderry six months before. In order to be declare an interest as the president of the War Widows’ able to bring up her children, she could not afford to Association of Great Britain. However, it is not only give up her widow’s pension. It is timely to bring these my duty but my pleasure so to do, because I have things out. found this one of the most rewarding tasks I have ever I also warmly support the remarks of the noble undertaken, and my admiration for these ladies and a Baroness, Lady Dean, about the Freedom of Information few gentlemen knows no bounds. Act and the Data Protection Act. It seems quite wrong Indeed, I am amazed when I look at the strength of that the charities and others which are trying to help the association now and remember the humble beginnings people are having difficulty obtaining information 40 years ago which other speakers today have already that will enable them to contact the people who need touched on. Sadly, most of those pioneering ladies help. Something is wrong here and it needs to be put have now gone, but I am delighted to name one, right. Mrs Kathy Woodside, who is alive and very much I want to say a few words about the context of the aware of the work of the association. She is a real Armed Forces covenant, which is totally new to me, pleasure. I spoke to her only today; she was at the because in all my service it did not exist; there was no service, at the reception and at the luncheon afterwards. such thing. Indeed, “Armed Forces covenant” is a very It has been a very hard road that they have had to new phrase. A military covenant has been talked about travel. We have had some indications of their achievements in the Army for the past three or four years, but is so I will not rehearse them in a short speech. I stress unknown to and unrecognised by the Navy and the that none of those various achievements over the GC 35 War Widows’ Association of GB[8 JUNE 2011] War Widows’ Association of GB GC 36 years was brought about without a great deal of effort, in the dying days of the previous Administration we work, disappointment or various authorities’ obstinate asked, and got it put into a Bill, that there should be a refusal to listen. None of this has come easily—it has chief coroner with a responsibility and a duty to make come very hard indeed. I hope that in more enlightened sure that those coroners looking at military inquests times it will be easier to get done the things that need were fully prepared and trained, so that they understood to be done. Like the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, the ethos and the particular circumstances in which in principle I very much welcome the building of the people die in war and conflict. That office has been covenant, of which he reminded us, but I am also put on ice—that is probably the right expression—but aware of that old phrase, “Fine words butter no parsnips”, I want to see that those duties are not forgotten while and we shall want to see whether the fine words and the office is not in existence. I end with that plea to my aspirations actually come to anything in terms of noble friend. deeds. I shall therefore look to my noble friend the Finally, we are very fortunate in the association in Minister to see whether these fine words are actually having such an enthusiastic patron as His Royal Highness translated into action. The War Widows’ Association the Prince of Wales, who was present at the service will be anxious to help in this regard and I hope it will today and took an immense amount of time to meet, I be consulted. think, practically every war widow at the reception. The association operates at two distinct levels. One We are indeed fortunate in that royal patronage. Who level that is important to this debate is what I call the would have thought it when it started, 40 years ago? campaigning arm, which tries to make things better and redress wrongs. In the course of doing so, it has 4.21 pm also been very wise in making sure they have representation on all the various bodies that advise Governments or Lord Loomba: I thank the noble Viscount, Lord make their points. That is very important, and I hope Leckie, for securing this debate. The issue of widows is that if ever a new body is created or some consultation very close to my heart. Before I start, let me declare has to take place, the War Widows’ Association will my interest: I grew up as a widow’s son. I set up a always be at the forefront of those who are consulted. widows’ charity in 1997 in this country in honour of I make that as a general point since we do not quite my mother. It has now become a global charity, which know what the future may hold. was accredited by the United Nations in 2008. The issue of widows is global and the war widows are The other arm, which was already touched upon by suffering so much that we should pay attention to their the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, is the highly valuable problems. My mother was not a war widow, as my social networking that goes on, including at the AGM father actually died of disease, but no matter how a which over the years has developed into a mini-holiday, woman loses her husband—through poverty, disease which is absolutely splendid. I go each year for the full or conflict—her plight is exactly the same. She has to four days and I join in with everything. It is extremely deal with the bereavement and financial insecurity in worthwhile and enables anyone on the outside, as it her life. were, to really get to know people, hear their stories—some The emotional turmoil faced by widows after the of them almost unbearably moving—and to see how loss of a spouse is not a sentiment which can be they can enjoy themselves. To see them dancing is altered. However, financial provision for those widows quite something, and those who cannot dance sit there and widowers who have lost spouses in the Armed and tap their feet. It is a remarkable way of bringing Forces is a step towards helping them rebuild their people together who have suffered such losses. lives and provide a positive future for their children. I want to deal now with several issues of concern Members of the Armed Forces past and present placed that have been touched upon this afternoon, and one their trust in the Government as they previously declared that has not. One of these, of course, is the Data a commitment to preserve the military covenant, as we Protection Act. I make no apology for saying again have heard earlier. Yet to state now that members of that if ever the law of unintended consequences were the Armed Forces need to understand they cannot be working with an Act, it is this one. It is ludicrous exempt from the big picture is degrading to those beyond belief that the Act should stand in the way of risking their lives every day, serving our country in the War Widows’ Association making contact with places such as Afghanistan and Iraq. women—or in some cases men—who have just had It is understandable that temporary cuts need to be the appalling experience of their lives and everything made in relation to the deficit. However, the long-term they hold dear being turned upside-down, or offering effect of losing hundreds of thousands of pounds will the comfort of those who have gone through exactly be felt by many widows for generations to come. It is the same process. None of us who has not been unfair to make a decision hastily, especially in the case through such a trauma and come out the other side is of widows. Treating people who work in the Armed ever able to do that as well as someone who has. I am Forces in the same way as those who work in the not sure what the way around this is, but I do believe public sector is simply unacceptable and quite frankly that if there is a will there is a way. I strongly urge my it is an unfair proposal—not to mention the impact noble friend the Minister to look at this again and to this decision will have upon the credibility of the overcome any objections from those who think it is Government. more important to have data protection than it is to The other issue is whether widows’ pensions should help people. be linked to the retail prices index or the consumer I also want to touch upon the issue of the chief prices index. The Government are well within their coroner. My noble friend the Minister will recall that rights to use either the CPI or RPI. However, we are GC 37 War Widows’ Association of GB[LORDS] War Widows’ Association of GB GC 38

[LORD LOOMBA] who had to care for the children as single parents for all aware that CPI inflation is significantly lower in great stretches of time. They had to manage the household comparison with that of the RPI; and that will result and juggle finances and commitments—all the time in hundreds of thousands of pounds being taken away worried about the safety of their loved one. The death from deserving widows. Furthermore, the proposal to of a partner is always painful, but the death of a discontinue a widow’s pension if her partner died partner on active service must increase the pain. We, before 2005 and she wishes to remarry or cohabit with as individuals and as a society, owe these widows and a new partner also cannot be dismissed. It is unjust to widowers a great deal. Their partners paid the ultimate force a widow to choose between living alone with a sacrifice. pension or cohabiting with or marrying a new partner While saluting the work of the association and the without the financial aid that they are accustomed to courage and tenacity of the widows, I, too, have some receive. questions to put to the Minister. First, I associate My charity, the Loomba Foundation, which works myself with the concerns already expressed about the to raise awareness of the plight of widows around the retention of pensions for those war widows or widowers world, gained support from the United Nations which, who remarry. It is wonderful that some whose spouses about six months ago, declared 23 June as International have died find a new loving relationship and, as someone Widows Day. Perhaps I may add that on 23 June this who values the institution of marriage, I can understand year, the United Nations is hosting a conference at the why they would wish to remarry. It is wrong if this UN to raise awareness of the plight of widows all decision is coloured by the consideration of the loss of around the world. There are war widows in every a pension. country. The number of widows who have lost their husbands through conflict is incredible. Recent research Secondly, while acknowledging the need for restraint has shown that there are 245 million widows in the in public as well as private sector pay and pensions, I world. That is why the UN is taking up their case, and simply do not understand why the decision was taken the British Government should also do so seriously. to reduce the value of pensions for soldiers and war widows. By linking forces’ pension rises to CPI rather We are aware that financial aid is not something than RPI, members of the Armed Forces and their that can erase the emotional and internal turmoil loved ones will see their pensions reduced for the rest faced by widows, yet it permits widows to regain some of their lives. It cannot be right that the men and independence and allows them to live out their lives women who give their limbs and their lives for our with the dignity and respect they deserve. The War country, and the families that they leave behind, should Widows’ Association is supporting the unfortunate suffer in such a way. We are told that these measures women whose husbands have fallen while fighting for are necessary in order to reduce the deficit, but the our country. The association not only helps the bereaved deficit is temporary while the impact on war widows to overcome loss and to resume a normal life, but will be felt for the rest of their lives. works with the Government to ensure that the war widows receive the benefits and pensions to which Finally, I come to the issue of the Government’s they are entitled. plans to abolish the post of the chief coroner, already Widows suffer their own sorrows. We must do raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes. As noble everything not to add to their suffering. Lords will be aware, we had major debates on this issue during the passage of the Public Bodies Bill. With the strong support of the Royal British Legion, 4.28 pm we secured an amendment to the Bill which reversed Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I, too, am the decision of the Government. This was an important grateful to the noble Viscount for securing this timely step for many in our society who had made the argument debate. It was a real honour to attend the service at the for years in favour of a chief coroner’s office and who Guards Chapel this morning to mark the 40th anniversary were devastated to learn of the Government’s plan to of the founding of the War Widows’ Association of abolish it. It was especially important for bereaved Great Britain. This remarkable association, now under Armed Forces families who have first-hand knowledge the chairmanship of Mrs Rosalind Campbell, has of the difficulties currently faced through the Independent achieved much since it was established and it is right Inquest Advice Service. The Government’s arguments that it now has proper recognition and a voice in all of in favour of abolition were based on cost and the appropriate fora. accountability, but these were comprehensively rebutted in the House of Lords by many noble Lords who are The aim of the association, to improve conditions in this Room today. for all war widows, is a noble aim and, sadly for a civilised nation in the 21st century, still they have to do I have heard from various sources that during the battle. However, the members of the association are passage of the Public Bodies Bill in the Commons the passionate and resilient; they inspire and give hope to Government intend to introduce an amendment securing one another and to tomorrow’s war widows. When the abolition of the office of the chief coroner, precisely their brave and patriotic husbands were alive, before overturning what was decided in the Lords. This would they had given their precious lives for our country, life not only fly in the face of the very substantial vote in was already challenging for these women. I used the this House, where the amendment was agreed by 277 votes term “husbands”, but I am aware and delighted that in to 165, to preserve the office of the chief coroner, but 2002, war widowers were officially recognised by the also be a huge disservice to the Royal British Legion Government and are entitled to be full members of the and to the War Widows’ Association, which rightly association. The widows and widowers were the ones believe that the role of chief coroner is vital to ensuring GC 39 War Widows’ Association of GB[8 JUNE 2011] War Widows’ Association of GB GC 40 that bereaved service families receive the help they Our Armed Forces are currently deployed to the deserve when the deaths of their loved ones are most demanding areas of conflict in Afghanistan. investigated. I ask for an assurance from the Minister They are performing magnificently. Together with our that the Government will not seek to counter their allies, they are reversing the momentum of the Taleban. wishes. I also warmly support the suggestions made by But, sadly, tragedy does occur. We will do all we can to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, in respect of the support a family and help them through these difficult covenant and reports to Parliament. times. But we recognise that we cannot do everything, Over the years, I have had the privilege of meeting which is why we partner with charities and other the partners of many who are bravely serving our organisations to deliver a full range of support. For country. It is possible that some of them will now be example, the willingness of the War Widows’ Association widows or widowers. I owe it to them, to my Aunt Jean to adapt to the different challenges facing our war who has been a war widow for many years and to the widows must be applauded. I know that its role in thousands of others whom I have not met to do shaping recent Ministry of Defence policy, its work everything possible to support the association. It is a with the previous Government on the Service Personnel privilege and an honour to do so, and I wish it and Command Paper, and its input into the review continued success. of the Armed Forces compensation scheme by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce, was valued and appreciated. It can be rightly proud of its achievements. 4.33 pm Its contribution to the review has ensured that the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry partners and dependents of those tragically killed of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My Lords, I add my received payments of hundreds of thousands of pounds congratulations to those already offered to my noble over their lifetime in the shape of the survivors guaranteed friend on securing this debate on the very important income payment. While we understand that this will work of the War Widows’ Association. It is clear that never replace a loved one, it does help to ensure that the whole House recognises the importance which we life can be made more comfortable and the future as a nation must continue to attach to supporting more secure. grieving families. The pain of losing a loved one is This Government are rightly proud of the work we lifelong, and many take great comfort from others are doing to build the Armed Forces covenant, mentioned who have had similar experiences. I pay tribute to by several noble Lords. I take the point made by the them all, and I am very honoured to take part in this noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about “rebuild”. On debate today. 16 May, my right honourable friend the Secretary of Like the Government of the noble Baroness, Lady State for Defence announced the publication of a Royall, I and my fellow Ministers will do all we can to covenant and outlined how, with the passing of the support the very important work of the War Widows’ Armed Forces Bill—due to be debated in your Lordships’ Association. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady House soon—he will be required to report annually Fookes, who spoke with the authority that one would on how the Government are performing against the expect of a president of the War Widows’ Association. measures we are committed to put in place. In doing The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, as a vice-president, so, he will be able to call on members of the external spoke in an equally informed manner. With their reference group, on which the War Widows’ Association combined knowledge and support, the association is is represented. I am particularly pleased that it is at the very well represented in this House. heart of holding the Government to account. I will Like many organisations, the War Widows’Association take back to my department the point made by the of Great Britain was founded out of conflict. When noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about the association’s Laura Connelly read an article in a newspaper in 1971 shopping list as it is an excellent suggestion. highlighting the plight of Britain’s war widows and I know that an area in which the War Widows’ decided that action must be taken, she could not have Association shows great interest is coroners’ inquests foreseen the impact that her stand would have on the and ensuring that improvements to the system continue future policies of all Governments of this country. to be made. That was raised by several noble Lords. Her endeavours have been carried on by the association’s A Ministry of Defence familiarisation event was 13 chairmen. I would like to take this opportunity to held last May to provide coroners with awareness of thank them all for their tireless work on behalf of the equipment and procedures used in theatre. We their members, and to welcome Mrs Rosalind Campbell intend to repeat this event annually. Induction and as the association’s newest chairman. I am sure that continuation training for coroners and their deputies—this she will continue the great work of her predecessors. relates to the question asked by my noble friend Lady Only those who have suffered the sudden loss of a Fookes—will also continue and the Ministry of Justice loved one can truly appreciate the hole that this leaves Coroners Training Group is planning training for the and the unexpected problems that can arise as they try future. to rebuild their lives. Today’s war widows are no longer the stereotypes that we remember from the The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, asked whether war—though their numbers are still significant—but the chief coroner’s position would be abolished. I have are much younger and often with young children. Of no brief on this today but I undertake to write to the course, this is extended to include widowers and civil noble Baroness and to put a copy in the Library. partners who must not be forgotten. They have very Support is made available to bereaved families before, specific needs of their own, and we have an obligation during and after an inquest, and families are kept fully to do all we can to meet them. informed of preparations through dedicated single GC 41 War Widows’ Association of GB[LORDS] Migrant Domestic Workers GC 42

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] Migrant Domestic Workers service teams. We also make funding available for the Question for Short Debate attendance by three family members at inquests into deaths deemed attributable to service. We have produced 4.45 pm a DVD to try to improve the understanding of what to expect from and at an inquest and to make the whole Asked by Baroness Cox process less daunting and stressful. I would like to assure all service widows that the interests of bereaved To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they families will remain at the heart of any legislative intend to address the exploitation of migrant domestic changes. workers, including those employed within diplomatic missions in the United Kingdom. The Government are aware of the need to ensure that families receive appropriate support, especially Baroness Cox: My Lords, I am very grateful to all during the most difficult times. Each of the services noble Lords speaking in this debate today on a subject offers ongoing practical support for the next of kin of that demands our attention both for the heart-rending the deceased. However, while each service provides its predicament of many domestic migrant workers and own support networks, sometimes the best and most for the urgent need for action to remedy the situation, valuable support can come from those who have endured which renders them vulnerable to exploitation and a similar situation and a tragic loss. That is why the abuse. In addition to those who will be speaking, there Government and the House recognise and appreciate are colleagues who cannot be here but who share our the invaluable support of the War Widows’ Association concern. The noble Baroness, Lady Youngof Hornsey, over the past 40 years and the vital role it will play for has especially asked me to say that she much regrets many years to come. not being able to participate in the debate. I have answered one or two noble Lords’ questions My first awareness of this very disturbing situation and I shall do my best to answer the others. If I do not, came from meeting Mende, a young girl from Sudan I undertake to write. who had escaped from the Sudanese embassy. She had My noble friends Lord Younger and Lord Loomba been abducted into slavery from her home village in asked what we were going to do about the widows who the Nuba mountains in Sudan in a raid typical of lose their pension because they fall into the gap between many that I encountered there during the war that 1973 and 2005. I know that the area of pension raged until the peace agreement was signed in 2005. provision for widows is one of the association’s top Tens of thousands of women and girls have been priorities. However, it must be remembered that it is a captured and sold into slavery there; we had the general principle of public service pension policy—one opportunity to rescue many hundreds, and their stories that has been upheld by successive Governments—that were heart-breaking in the details of the cruelty inflicted improvements to pension schemes should not be made on them. retrospective. The issues raised by service widows are Mende’s story was no exception. After being captured, not limited only to the Armed Forces but are common she was forced to work as a slave in a diplomat’s house to other public service schemes which have similar in Khartoum and then brought to London to continue provisions. her servitude here. She managed to escape, and it was my privilege to do a little to support her as she tried to Resolving legacy issues across the wider public find freedom in this country. Her story is recorded in sector would be extremely costly, with estimates running the very moving book entitled Slave: The True Story into hundreds of millions of pounds. However, in of a Girl’s Lost Childhood and Her Fight for Survival. some specific circumstances—often at the behest of the War Widows’ Association—we have been able to In preparing for today’s debate, I have been grateful make changes, and where it is possible we will of for excellent briefings, including those from Anti-Slavery course continue to do so. International and from Kalayaan—justice for migrant domestic workers. The debate is particularly timely, My noble friends Lord Younger and Lady Fookes, because this month the International Labour Organisation the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, and the noble Lord, is celebrating its 100th anniversary. As we meet here Lord Ramsbotham, raised issues about data protection. today the ILO is meeting in Geneva, working on I can confirm that my department would welcome standard-setting in relation to decent work for domestic any suggestions on this issue from the War Widows’ workers, with the intention of adopting a new international Association. On the data protection issue, a dedicated convention on domestic work by the end of the month. visiting officer will work very closely with the bereaved This represents an historic opportunity to provide family and will assist in making pension and compensation greater international protection for domestic workers claims. As part of that process, a widow will be invited and highlights the ILO’s recognition of the critical to give her permission for her details to be released to need to do so. the War Widows’Association. In addition, the association Domestic work is generally poorly regulated and is brought to the attention of a bereaved family through undervalued. Many domestic workers are subject to a variety of means. We believe that these steps give the serious abuses, which often include forced labour and association visibility to those who most require its slavery. They frequently work excessively long hours, help. without breaks, days off or holidays. The pay is often I have run out of time. My noble friend asked about very low, and wages are frequently delayed. Some are visits to graves and I can confirm that visits to graves not paid at all, or only receive payment in kind, such will be continued. as food or accommodation. Many also suffer verbal GC 43 Migrant Domestic Workers[8 JUNE 2011] Migrant Domestic Workers GC 44 abuse such as insults and threats, as well as physical and furious. He became really violent, threw me against a wall and even sexual abuse. Some experience a lack of food and started bashing my head against the front door. I was so and poor living conditions, such as having to sleep on scared I knew I had to escape. I ran into the street. I didn’t know anybody, didn’t have any identity documents, no money. I was the floor in a utility room. crying uncontrollably and bleeding from my head. I was lucky Many migrant domestic workers often make great that a man who spoke my language spotted me. He took me to the sacrifices to live away from their families to earn police to report what had happened. They sent me to the hospital money for their dependants back home. Their exploitation and Kalayaan agreed to help me seek justice … Seeking justice by unscrupulous employers renders their sacrifice doubly comes at a price. The diplomat and his wife are connected and I knew after making the allegations against them my life would be painful; the sadness of poignant separation is exacerbated in danger back in my home country, so I applied for asylum in the by denial of appropriate remuneration to send home. United Kingdom”. In the UK in 2009, 14,898 migrant domestic work What should be done to remedy such problems? visas were granted. Also, in the UK in 2009, the group In 2010 the ILO voted by a comfortable majority to Justice for Domestic Workers interviewed 111 of its adopt a binding convention, supplemented by a members and found that over 50 per cent of them were recommendation, recognising the urgent need to protect expected to work over 55 hours a week and 95 per cent this vulnerable category of workers. Although the UK of them were not paid even the minimum wage. Almost did not vote in favour of having only a recommendation, half had not had a paid holiday in a year. it has maintained its initial reservations about the need Domestic workers are exploited behind closed doors for a convention. In the latest round of tripartite in private households and therefore fall outside the consultation, the UK found itself quite isolated on the normal regulatory and inspection framework applicable international scene in its official response. Despite to other places of work. They are especially vulnerable recognising that domestic workers are undoubtedly a when working in residences of foreign diplomats, who vulnerable class of worker who require particular attention, can use diplomatic immunity to prevent scrutiny. While it did not express its support for a strong convention welcoming the fact that UK migrant domestic workers and invoked legal exemptions in relation to the labour have access to visas in their own right, I must say that rights of domestic workers. some employers keep control of their passports, denying The Government are objecting, inter alia, to the them access to the papers needed to seek alternative regulation of domestic workers’ rights to working time employment without fear of deportation. and occupational safety and health. The Government Real-life stories illustrate the suffering behind the stated that the working time regulations do not apply statistics. I have time for only two, but they are sadly to domestic workers, making it clear that they want to typical of countless others. The first is about the plight exclude them from the protection they need and which of a sub-Saharan African woman trafficked by a the overwhelming majority of other workers enjoy. diplomat from her own country. In the UK he withheld Anti-Slavery International is concerned that the UK is her passport. Whenever she asked about it he became considering maintaining its position by invoking a angry. Twice she was severely beaten. She was refused number of possible exemptions to the EU working medical care. The employer told her that in the UK he time directive. The regulation of working hours of was extremely powerful in their community. He also domestic workers, especially those living in with their refused to allow her to call home on the grounds of employer, is at the core of what this international expense. She was not paid any salary. She believed the standard has set to achieve: that is, to redress the legal diplomat was claiming an allowance for her work gap that leads to so many abuses of domestic workers’ because she was told what to say if the office ever rights. May I ask the Minister if Her Majesty’s telephoned and asked her about her work there. She Government is reconsidering its position so as to worked for 15 hours a day, sometimes more. At one enable working hours for domestic workers to be point she became so disillusioned at how bad her life regulated in ways comparable to those of other workers? was here that she asked to go home. The diplomat said The UK Government have also raised their opposition she could not leave until his family did. He told her if to Article 13 of the draft convention, invoking the she tried to go home without his permission he would exemption allowed by the Health and Safety at Work cause serious trouble for her family. She had been too etc. Act 1974 in relation to domestic workers. Domestic scared to approach the authorities and had been living workers often incur burns, cuts and exposure to hazards in fear. from handling toxic and boiling liquids and lifting The second story is in the words of the domestic heavy loads. Surely they should benefit from the same worker herself: protection in their workplace as other workers do. “At first I was really excited to move to London and work for Will Her Majesty’s Government discontinue their policy an African diplomat and his wife. The plan was that I would live of applying exemptions regarding core labour rights with the family and be a nanny to their young son. I hoped to for domestic workers to ensure that they work under learn English and I thought I could earn enough money so that health and safety circumstances in the home? when I go home I could study. I moved to London with the diplomat a couple of weeks before his wife and child arrived. I I have two more specific questions for the Minister. quickly realised I had made a terrible mistake. From the very first Are Her Majesty’s Government considering extending day I was treated like a slave. It immediately became clear he the right to change employers to domestic workers wanted more from me than just to look after his son. He sexually in diplomatic households, and is the Minister aware molested me and would become angry when I refused his advances. of the recent report, Ending the Abuse: Policies that Life became even worse when the diplomat’s wife arrived. I was Work to Protect Migrant Domestic Workers,bythe forced to work 17 hours a day, doing all the cooking, cleaning, nanny work, never allowed a day off. The wife would get violent charity Kalayaan? It gives support services to these and throw things at me as well as shouting at me. I was completely workers, including victims of trafficking. Will the trapped like this for six months. One day the diplomat was drunk department be considering its recommendations? GC 45 Migrant Domestic Workers[LORDS] Migrant Domestic Workers GC 46

[BARONESS COX] The job offer often bears no reality to the actual I conclude by asking whether Her Majesty’s tasks they have to perform. Often, transportation and Government will take a leadership role during these living costs are deducted from their wages, making weeks in Geneva and join the wider international it almost impossible to sustain a normal lifestyle. The community, employers and trade unionists to demonstrate worst cases are those in some diplomatic households. that we will no longer turn a blind eye to the maltreatment Domestic workers are not afforded adequate protection of vulnerable domestic workers. Many of them are from exploitation and do not have the right to change paying a high price for a better future for their children. employers. They are most vulnerable when fleeing I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure your from abusive employers. Lordships that we will support and protect them in Of course we can and should take action when such their endeavours. practices are exposed. Should we not seriously consider a domestic worker’s right to change employment in a 4.56 pm diplomatic household? When visa applications have Lord Dholakia: My Lords, first, I thank the noble been made, should we not supply applicants with Baroness, Lady Cox, for securing this debate. She information about their rights and responsibilities? works tirelessly to secure the rights and liberties of We should also mention who to approach when disadvantaged people in many parts of the world, and employment conditions are breached. I know that we I am delighted that this time she has drawn attention are treading on sensitivity when dealing with overseas to the plight of domestic migrant workers. This debate missions enjoying diplomatic immunity, but surely if is timely; the International Labour Organisation, the the ILO convention on decent work for domestic United Nations agency that concentrates on labour workers is ratified, it will put such missions to shame, rights, draws its strength from having national and rightly so. Governments, workers and employers participate in We also need to pay special attention to our own its decision-making process and, as part of its international immigration rules. Migrant domestic workers are conventions on slavery, a new international convention dependent on their employers for their work and on domestic workers worldwide is likely to be adopted accommodation. There is no oversight of what happens shortly. We want to ensure that our Government are a in the private household, which is almost always invisible. signatory to this and, more importantly, that they have A comparison with forced marriage is appropriate. policies and procedures in place to ensure that we give None of us was aware of the size of the problem until real meaning to such a convention. recently, and now we have adequate machinery to I thank Anti-Slavery International and Kalayaan, ensure that victims receive all the help both here and at as the noble Baroness has done, for the briefing material British high commissions abroad. I was a member of that they have supplied. I urge the Minister to study the first working party established by the Home Office, their publications, which identify policies that work and I am glad to say that good practices have followed. to protect migrant domestic workers. Their research Surely it is possible to monitor visa conditions on a was undertaken to inform the current Government in small sample of domestic workers without the presence their review on the domestic workers’ visa. Kalayaan of their employers. The number of migrant domestic submitted a research report in March 2011 to the workers entering the UK is estimated at nearly 15,000. government team conducting the review. The UK This is not a small number, and I accept that in many Border Agency has said that the review will not be a cases the relationship between the worker and their public consultation, but I hope that it takes a serious employer is sound, but it is rogue employers that we look at it and at today’s debate. In the mean time, I ask are after. We need to pay particular attention to child the Minister for the exact timescale of this review and labour. Children are the most vulnerable to slavery. whether she will publish the ultimate article when it is There is evidence at an international level that completed. many who are separated from their families are inherently We in this country have been pioneers in promoting easier to coerce and control. An ugly feature here is legislation on human rights and equality, which has that some are trafficked, while others are bonded served us well. It is no surprise that other countries labour forced to work to pay off debts that their have followed our example. Those of us who have read parents have accrued. cases highlighted in the media and taken up cases with I started by saying that a new international convention the Government can vouch for the fact that domestic on domestic workers is likely to be adopted shortly. work is poorly regulated and that inadequate legal This will set out the employment rights of this category protection is afforded to workers. Some basic human of people. As the Minister knows, all countries that rights are denied. The predominant groups are ratify the convention will have a legal obligation to women and girls, who are most vulnerable to abuse. ensure that these rights are granted. I want our Poverty compels vulnerable people to accept jobs Government not only to support the convention but where basic rights are denied. In many cases, the to take a lead in its implementation. We must move circumstances and conditions of their employment away from the notion that it is only informal labour amount to forced labour. I have come across cases in and not proper work. We must ensure that domestic which women have been forbidden to leave the home migrant workers have the rights and liberties that where they are working. Violent threats have become other workers enjoy. We must strengthen our existing an everyday reality and their passports are withheld by legislation, including the Race Relations Act, to ensure their employers, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, that no exceptions are made in the employment of said. Add to that the other ingredients that make their such workers. We must not underestimate the role that lives a living hell. trade unions can play. In the final analysis, let us work GC 47 Migrant Domestic Workers[8 JUNE 2011] Migrant Domestic Workers GC 48 towards a society where individuals’ human rights are The visa has been described by the Commons Home upheld. In many cases, domestic migrant workers have Affairs Select Committee in its report on human trafficking lost almost everything. They are right at the bottom of as, the ladder. Let us not strip them of their dignity as “the single most important issue in preventing the forced labour well. and trafficking of such workers”. It provides them with a recognised immigration status 5.03 pm and ensures that they are recognised as workers and protected by UK employment law. Can the noble The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, first, I welcome Baroness assure us that there will be no reduction in the Minister to our debate on immigration, which the numbers currently protected by the ODW visa? again includes some of the usual suspects. Thanks are also due to my noble friend for introducing this debate I have read through the detailed comments of Anti- with her characteristic and well-known enthusiasm for Slavery International on the draft convention. One of human rights and justice. I also thank my noble friend these deals with the old dilemma of international Lady Young, who takes a lot of interest in this subject development specialists: child protection and the right but who was unable to be here today. She initiated the to work. Provided that young people are not working longer series of discussions that led to this short in exploitative or hazardous conditions, they should debate. Some of us have benefited from the advice be allowed to earn money as domestic workers provided given by at least two specialised voluntary agencies they are below the minimum age for compulsory working in London and alongside the ILO in Geneva. education. In other words, education is not automatically the best place for a child unless the state has made it As the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, said, the principal compulsory.This seems to be the argument of Anti-Slavery purpose of today’s debate is to encourage Her Majesty’s International in amending Article 4.2 of the draft Government, and the noble Baroness in particular, to convention, and I support it. support and ratify the new ILO convention on decent work for migrant domestic workers. The term “decent” As the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, mentioned, another work for domestic workers was unfamiliar to me, but concern to ASI has been Article 10 on working time. its purpose seems clear. It is spelt out in Article 5 as The UK apparently wants to exclude domestic workers being fair terms of employment, decent working from this protection because it believes that the nature conditions and decent living conditions. of domestic work makes it impossible to regulate and it has enshrined its objection in the EU directive on The convention recognises that many domestic workers working time. are migrants or members of historically disadvantaged communities and are therefore especially vulnerable. As has been mentioned, discussions about the As a former Anti-Slavery International council member convention are going on in Geneva. I understand that I have spoken more than once in the past on behalf of two days ago the United Kingdom, along with other these workers, and I have had to inform the House of EU member states, sought to weaken the protection some almost desperate cases reported by them or by offered by Article 10 and the result has been new Kalayaan, the campaigning agency that works most wording that states, closely with them. We heard about some of these cases “shall take measures towards ensuring equal treatment”, from the noble Baroness. instead of simply “to ensure equal treatment”. I have worked with a number of voluntary I understand that this is not the only example of the organisations, but I especially admire the style, focus UK watering down some of the wording in the convention. and balance displayed by Kalayaan in its commitment It seems, for example, that we were the only country to over many years to this important element of our express our opposition to Article 13 on occupational workforce. Kalayaan’s research shows that nearly two- health and safety. Do the Government, who ostensibly thirds of migrant domestic workers surveyed over the support the convention, really want to be seen as the three years to last December had to work seven days a only one unwilling to ensure that domestic workers are week without a significant break. That testimony in protected against hazards and accidents at work? It itself shows the degree of unseen exploitation of these would seem so. workers. Then you learn from the survey that about This coalition Government have already taken the the same number had their passports withheld, and lead in many initiatives in international development nearly as many were psychologically abused and were in this first year, both in Europe and elsewhere, and paid only £50 a week or less. These are scandalous have been able to change their mind, most notably on figures, which have not improved since we last debated the recent opt-in to the trafficking directive, which will this subject. be greatly welcomed. However, it is a major concern to It might be assumed, in the present climate of the rest of the world that the EU as a bloc has put on reducing the rate of immigration, that these migrants the brakes and subscribed to more than 100 amendments are seeking asylum. In fact, only a very small number—less to the text of this convention alone. I therefore very than 5 per cent—are able or willing to settle in the much hope that the Minister, having heard the various UK. The vast majority wish to return home. Yet they comments today, will confirm that from now on she could be targeted under new immigration rules so that will at least speak to the UK team in Geneva and even this number may not be awarded an ODW visa in persuade it to take a more positive direction. the future. This visa, apart from giving them the temporary permission to stay, also protects the worker’s 5.10 pm right to change employer in the case of exploitation or Lord Avebury: My Lords, I join in the congratulations abuse. The removal of this right could only add to that have been expressed by others to the noble Baroness, their sense of insecurity. Lady Cox, who not for the first time has raised the GC 49 Migrant Domestic Workers[LORDS] Migrant Domestic Workers GC 50

[LORD AVEBURY] The treatment of some MDWs equates to trafficking issue of rights for migrant domestic workers, as have for domestic servitude, as the noble Baroness, Lady my noble friend Lord Dholakia and the noble Earl, Cox, demonstrated, and these cases are brought to the Lord Sandwich, in previous debates. This problem attention of the national referral mechanism, established goes back a long way, as noble Lords can see from the in 2009 following the Council of Europe’s Convention fact that Kalayaan, which has been quoted by everybody on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings. Up to who has spoken so far, goes back for more than the end of last year there were 175 adult referrals 20 years. In fact, its briefing quotes from a debate we under the domestic servitude heading, of which 55 were had on the subject in 1990, by no means the first of its from Kalayaan. Could the Minister give us a breakdown kind, initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, to of the agencies that reported the other 120 cases? whose determination and persistence we should pay What is revealed in the statistics is that 246 of the tribute. NRM referrals were of children, of which 104 led to Throughout the whole of the two decades, the conclusive grounds decisions—a really shocking picture, abuse of foreign workers has followed a similar pattern particularly when you consider the difficulty and danger to the description by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton: for a person making the initial complaint while still there are no written contracts of employment or contracts under the roof of the oppressor. What happens when are arbitrarily changed, and wages are often withheld it is first established that the referral is of a child, or paid in kind. Then there is compulsion to work bearing in mind that the average time taken to reach a excessive hours; inadequate food; denial of privacy; conclusive decision is 190 days, compared with the denial of access to friends or often to the outside 45 days reflection period? One would expect that the world; and, in extreme cases, physical attacks, sexual child would be removed from the employer and fostered abuse, and credible threats of violence. These things pending the NRM decision, but suppose the employer are still with us. claims to be a close relative, as in the case of Victoria It is true that Kalayaan statistics comparing Climbié, for instance. Do we ever allow children to 1,000 MDWs in a survey done in 1996 with the enter the UK now with a person who claims to be a workers registered with the organisation in 2010 shows relative but not a parent? Does the NRM refer all the some improvement, but from a totally unacceptable cases reported to it of children to the UKBA with a baseline. In the earlier year, 100 per cent were being view to checking on their immigration status? The made to work for 17 hours a day, while last year nearly children obviously did not qualify for admission under half had to work 16 hours or more. In 1996, 38 per the overseas domestic worker regime, first introduced cent were not given enough to eat, compared with in 1998 and now part of the immigration rules. But 26 per cent in 2010. The only statistic that got worse in one reason given by abused workers for not agreeing those two years was that employers are now withholding to be referred to the NRM is that it would lead to the passports of nearly two-thirds of MDWs, compared excessive focus on their immigration status. This means with 62 per cent in 1996. The ability of the MDW to that the NRM statistics are the tip of the iceberg, change employers and in 2008, the extension to MDWs because only those who entered legally as ODWs are of official status as workers under the points-based likely to register. With an ODW visa, the migrant is system, for which Kalayaan must be given a lot of the free to change employer and frequently does so with credit, should make a big difference in the longer term, minimum support. For the undocumented, Kalayaan but we need to know why a substantial proportion of recommends the issue of a three-month bridging visa employers are still ignoring their obligations. to enable the exploited MDW to find new employment Should not there be a provision in the rules that and to apply for an ODW visa, paying tax and national when an employer is found to have committed serious insurance, and eliminating the expense of treating the abuse of an MDW by the employment tribunal, his victim as an illegal entrant. right to employ MDWs should be suspended for a Finally, I turn to the knotty question of MDWs period to be decided by the tribunal? The Kalayaan brought here by diplomats, raised by the noble Baroness, statistics on tribunal cases demonstrate that all too Lady Cox. These workers are not allowed to switch to many employers are unfit to be given the power over another employer without losing their immigration the lives of domestic workers that allows them to status, and the employer’s immunity means that although break the law with impunity. While two-thirds of the levels of abuse and exploitation in diplomatic those registered with Kalayaan were made to work households are similar to those in private households, seven days a week with no time off, for instance, only the FCO does not ask to be informed of trafficking 14 such cases were reported to the tribunal, so there is cases identified by the NRM, which itself is a woefully still a huge penumbra of abuse which the oppressors incomplete record. The Austrian Government interview successfully conceal. The threat of not being allowed diplomatic MDWs annually, and it would be useful to to have domestic servants might be an effective know how many cases of abuse are thereby uncovered. deterrent to the widespread defiance of the law that is Does my noble friend think we should have a similar continuing. procedure, or better still, that it should be made part Another possible way of improving compliance of European law? would be to produce an explanatory leaflet in the The annual interview could be an important tool principal languages of MDWs, and hand it to employers for uncovering abuse throughout the whole of the and MDWs at the port of entry. It is all there on the MDW population. To minimise the bureaucracy involved, UKBA website, but I doubt whether many of the the employer could be obliged to complete a form workers have access to the internet or have adequate detailing the hours of work and hourly pay; the additional knowledge of English to understand that advice. hours the worker is expected to be on standby and the GC 51 Migrant Domestic Workers[8 JUNE 2011] Migrant Domestic Workers GC 52 hourly rate for those hours; the details of rest breaks, the remit of employment tribunals, but it is well worth days off and annual holidays; and the details of tax looking at. To be of any real use, that would have to deducted and national insurance contributions paid. encompass diplomatic families. It is clear that diplomatic This form should be countersigned by the worker as immunity will need to be looked at; we cannot escape correct, and it should be available for rechecking at the that. It might be argued that those people are not fit to annual interview. When the worker is said to be treated be diplomatic representatives in this country. I would as part of the family, and to be covered by the family have thought that there was a strong case for encouraging worker exemption, this should be clearly specified, but the FCO to consider whether those diplomats ought Kalayaan recommends that the statutory minimum to remain in this country. wage should apply to these workers as to all others. Point-of-entry advice was also raised. What about Seeing that half of all MDWs are paid less than the children? The case of Victoria Climbié was mentioned. minimum wage, it seems likely that the exemption has I well recall the report on the tragic circumstances been widely abused. leading to her death. It showed that about eight or The Kalayaan report is a competent and thorough nine agencies were involved in dealing with her. If just piece of work, and its recommendations demand well one person in one of those agencies had taken the considered replies from the Government. In the quarter necessary action, she would probably still be alive of a century since the abuse of domestic workers from today. The role of officers at the point of entry needs overseas first became a subject of concern to your to be looked at very carefully. Lordships, there have been several attempts at reform, A few months ago, Mr Bob Russell asked some but the extent and nature of the problem has remained questions in the other place, one of which was whether the same. It is intolerable and unthinkable that we there was a mechanism at the point of entry to ensure should fail to act against the criminal employers who that those entering the UK were not destined to work treat vulnerable domestic workers, many of them children, in domestic service which was either unpaid or paid like slaves, and I hope that this debate will enable us to less than the national minimum wage. He also asked signal the determination to stamp out abuse and bring whether the Home Office has been able to estimate the criminal employers to justice. number of foreign nationals working in domestic service who are unpaid or paid less than the national minimum 5.20 pm wage. I know that the Home Office has considered and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I, too, welcome answered this issue, and I know that it has stated that the initiative of the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and, border officers are trained in identifying signs of like other noble Lords, thank her for the important trafficking, of which domestic servitude is a part. work that she undertakes in this area. This has been However, I wonder, in the light of this debate, whether an interesting debate and we all look forward to the this is a matter that the Minister will ask her officials Minister’s response. to look at again. Exploitation is clearly a serious problem for thousands I should also mention a matter raised by the noble of people living in our country. I was struck particularly Lord, Lord Hylton, some months ago, about the Life by the introduction of the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, in the UK Test. He asked whether migrant domestic when she talked about the heart-rending circumstances workers will be able to undertake volunteering or of some migrant domestic workers and the need for study to pass the Life in the UK Test, in the light of action. She started by quoting a number of examples their possible working conditions. I know that before of people forced to work here, as she described, as an employer is able to employ an overseas domestic slaves. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, worker they are required to provide a statement of the and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, some of the terms and conditions of employment, and that as part abuses suffered by people working in this country at of that statement the employer is required to confirm the hands unscrupulous employers; for example, seven- the level of annual leave and free time that the domestic days-a-week working without a sufficient break, passports worker will be entitled to. Therefore, there should be being withheld—which gives those employers huge sufficient time in order to prepare for and undertake leverage over the people concerned—gross underpayment the Life in the UK Test. However, the problem is that or no payment at all and physical and mental abuse. this does not stand up to the reality of the situation if The thorny issue of diplomatic employers’ abuse of such workers are employed under the conditions their diplomatic status was raised again. It is a particularly mentioned by other noble Lords. difficult and serious problem. The noble Baroness In May 2009, the Home Affairs Select Committee spoke also of workers who sought justice both here in the other place published an interesting report and in their country of origin. Members of their entitled, The Trade in Human Beings: Human Trafficking families may be put under threat by people who, after in the UK. One of the issues raised by the committee all, are likely to be very powerful there as well as was the difficulty experienced by migrant domestic enjoying diplomatic status while they are here. There workers because the police do not always understand will be great interest in the Minister’s response. their special status, and the immigration authorities I, too, have some questions for her. The noble Lord, frequently fail to follow the correct procedures for Lord Avebury, raised a very important issue about issuing visa procedures that would help to identify employment tribunals and cases that have been brought abuse. I realise that the report was produced when my before them. He asked whether tribunals would be party was in government, and I fully accept that there allowed to rule that persons who exploited migrant are issues here that will cover the periods of both the workers were not suitable to employ workers in the previous Government and this Government. It was future. I do not know whether it is possible to extend interesting that the report noted that migrant domestic GC 53 Migrant Domestic Workers[LORDS] Migrant Domestic Workers GC 54

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] The Question asked in this debate is how the workers frequently experience difficulties in securing Government intend to address the exploitation of this the return of their passports from former abusive group of people. Let me respond in terms of the employers and in obtaining assistance from the police. immigration provisions and UK employment law, and The committee said that there was, conclude briefly by mentioning the forthcoming “a need for greater awareness training in police forces”. consultation that will invite views on the overseas Has the Home Office looked into these matters as a domestic worker routes and on wider proposals, including result? reform of employment-related settlement in the United Finally, as to the EU directive, I understand that Kingdom. We realise that there are serious issues the Home Office’s position is that the directive would around this whole subject, many of which have been make very little improvement in the way that the UK raised by noble Lords this afternoon. tackles this problem. However, even if that view were In the private household route, the potential for absolutely correct, there are arguments to be made in exploitation is addressed through a specific condition terms of the UK contributing to European-wide policy. of entry that has to be satisfied: that there is evidence I should be interested in the noble Baroness’s views of an employment relationship of 12 months’ duration. on that. This is intended to be a safeguard, prior to entry to the Overall, the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, made a United Kingdom, by demonstrating that the relationship persuasive case for action, and all noble Lords will be is genuine. It establishes a degree of longevity. Sadly interested in the Minister’s response. and worryingly, given what is sometimes reported once people have arrived here, it is plainly not an 5.29 pm adequate or foolproof form of prevention. Once here, The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness protection is available under employment law. Foreign Browning): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble workers, provided they are working legally, have exactly Baroness, Lady Cox, for giving us the opportunity to the same basic employment rights as anyone else working discuss this important subject, which invokes passionate in the United Kingdom. and sincerely held views. I will respond to as many I qualify that by adding that there are some exemptions points as possible. to the payment of the national minimum wage, which I start by answering the noble Baroness’s question have been mentioned, one of which relates to people on whether I am aware of Kalayaan’s recent report living and working within the family. The exemption is and considering its recommendations. I am aware of a limited one and turns on how a person is treated it, I have it here, and we will consider its recommendations, rather than any label put on them. If they are not particularly in the context of a forthcoming consultation, treated as a member of the family, they will of course to which I shall return later. Perhaps I may at this be eligible for the minimum wage. Perhaps I might point pay tribute to the work of Kalayaan. I am new mention, because it has been raised in the debate, that to its work, and when I saw the report it was the first there is a pay and work rights helpline, which has time I had any reference to what it does. Clearly, its rapid access to helpline operators through the language contribution is invaluable in this field. line, which provides accurate, live first-person I begin by summarising the relevant immigration interpretation. We have continued that route and have provisions. There are two routes of entry to the United worked with the helpline staff to ensure that they Kingdom for overseas domestic workers. One is for provide as accurate a service as possible to overseas those accompanying their employer to work here in domestic workers. that employer’s private household. Most such domestic workers arrive for short visits of up to six months. The Returning to immigration provisions, both routes second route is for those coming to work in the private currently permit extensions of stay and have a route to household of a diplomat posted here. settlement in the United Kingdom. Also, all domestic workers may change their employer for whatever reason, Before I continue, let me make one observation. although in the case of those in diplomatic households, The Question in this debate refers to “migrant domestic working only for another diplomat in the same mission workers”. The term used for the private route in the as the original employer is permitted. Immigration Rules is “overseas domestic workers”. Forgive me if this seems mere pedantry but my reason The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, asked whether we goes beyond strict adherence to the formality of the are considering allowing a change to employment language in statutory rules. I accept that “migrant outside the mission. As I have said, a consultation domestic workers” may be convenient shorthand. It inviting views on the overseas domestic worker routes may also be an appropriate description for people is imminent. I cannot pre-empt the detail, but suffice who, by and large, come and go. However, “migrant to say that it will include a reassessment of the current domestic worker” can also be used intentionally to provisions. In response to other points made, particularly convey the impression of an independent right of by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, it will be a full entry and stay in the United Kingdom. The point that three-month consultation and the results will be published. gets lost, though, is that the route is called “overseas domestic workers” in the Immigration Rules for a I should add that the Vienna Convention on reason. The worker is from overseas. Their usual residence Diplomatic Relations of 1961 entitles foreign diplomats and employment is overseas. They are here because accredited in the UK to employ domestic workers, the employer whom they work for overseas is here, and foreign or British. Under that convention, diplomats for no other reason. They do not have an independent have a duty, right of entry into the United Kingdom. “to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State”. GC 55 Migrant Domestic Workers[8 JUNE 2011] Disabled People: User-led Organisations GC 56

This applies to the terms and conditions of employment protection, in common with other workers. However, for all domestic staff. The Foreign and Commonwealth the position is complex and negotiations on any Office regularly reminds all foreign missions based in international agreement need to have regard to practical the UK of their obligations. implementation and effective enforcement. The question has been raised as to what happens if We also recognise that some workers may be more a diplomat is accused of abusing those working for vulnerable generally, not because they lack protection them. The police investigate any allegation that the but rather because there are unscrupulous employers law has been broken by persons entitled to immunity. who have denied employees rights or information about Given the number of people entitled to immunity in their employment rights and how to assert them. We the United Kingdom, around 22,500, the number of are doing more to provide literature at the point at serious offences allegedly committed by diplomats has which visas are issued to make sure that workers are remained proportionately low in recent years. Just two aware of those rights. The remedy lies not with new cases that were reported by the police in 2010 to the legislative requirements but with improved awareness FCO involved a domestic worker. The FCO treats of rights, and confidence in how to assert them. Therefore, very seriously any allegation of mistreatment of domestic no changes to existing provisions are foreseen. To workers in diplomatic households. When an allegation include in the provisions domestic workers who live in of mistreatment is brought to the FCO’s attention by private households would require the application of the police, it will write to the diplomatic mission in criminal sanctions to such private households, which question about the matter. If the police decide that an is considered inappropriate. allegation warrants further investigation, the FCO This has been a valuable debate. In closing, I should will request from the diplomatic mission a waiver of confirm that tomorrow the Government intend to the diplomat’s immunity. Failure to provide a waiver publish a consultation document on their next phase will usually result in a request to the mission for of immigration system reform. I hope that the Committee withdrawal of the diplomat from the United Kingdom. understands that I cannot pre-empt the detail, but I All domestic workers, whether private or diplomatic, can say that the context is around breaking the link have access to the national referral mechanism for between temporary migration and settlement. The victims of trafficking. The NRM is a multi-agency consultation will reassess employment-related settlement, framework involving the police, the UK Border Agency, including other overseas domestic worker routes, and local authorities and designated NGOs to help in the take into account our recognition of the problems identification and support process of victims of trafficking. associated with the treatment of individuals who are It was introduced in April 2009, and since then more brought here to work for others. That will be a three-month than 1,250 victims have been referred for confirmation consultation. I would be very happy within that period of trafficking-victim status and provision of care and to meet noble Lords who have an interest in the matter support. Serious abuse by an employer of a domestic or who wish to make representations so that their worker is assessed through the NRM to decide whether views can be discussed in more detail. there are reasonable grounds for someone to be regarded as a victim of trafficking. Victims receive a minimum 5.41 pm 45-day recovery and reflection period and support such as accommodation or access to legal assistance. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. If there are reasonable grounds for a person to be regarded as a victim of trafficking, NRM decision-makers Disabled People: User-led Organisations go on to decide conclusively whether the individual is Question for Short Debate a victim of trafficking under the Council of Europe convention. If so, the victim may, in certain individual 5.45 pm circumstances, receive a period of 12 months’discretionary leave, such as to assist with a police investigation Asked by Baroness Wheeler or prosecution, or in compelling compassionate circumstances. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for the continued support of user-led The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, asked three questions organisations that support disabled people and the about the Government’s position on the ongoing personalisation agenda. International Labour Organisation’s discussions on a new international convention on domestic work. This Baroness Wheeler: My Lords, I am delighted to matter was also raised by other noble Lords. I shall be have secured this debate. As one who is still very much brief. We support the principle of a new convention a newcomer to your Lordships’ House, I am proud and accompanying recommendation. As ever, the detail that this subject marks my first success in obtaining a of the new instruments will be crucial. In the negotiations QSD and realise that patience really does pay off. I am and in developing our position on the final texts, we also pleased to have supporting the debate noble Lords will take into account a number of factors, including who have done so much to campaign and support whether the convention will provide suitable protection disabled people. I particularly want to thank my noble and whether it is formulated in a way that helps it to be friend Lady Wilkins, my office mate and a great widely ratified. inspiration, and the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, In respect of working hours and working in healthy whose work and contribution to championing the and safe circumstances in the home, we take the view right of disabled people to take control of their own that domestic workers should be afforded appropriate lives is fully recognised by the House. I pay tribute to GC 57 Disabled People: User-led Organisations[LORDS] Disabled People: User-led Organisations GC 58

[BARONESS WHEELER] Living Council, the Surrey Disabled People’s Partnership her formidable record and achievement, but also for and the Surrey Coalition of Disabled People. These personal reasons. In 2007 I became the carer of my groups are typical of ULO organisation, in that they partner, who is now disabled. I was fortunate enough are active groups in themselves as well as the umbrella to have a very good friend who put me in immediate supporting groups for local hubs representing a range touch with the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, and of specific health or disability interests, such as Surrey’s her help and support was invaluable. She introduced Vision Action group, or the Surrey Deaf Forum or the me to the work and role of user-led organisations. The Surrey Autism Partnership Board. subsequent support that I have had from advisers in This is just one local authority area where strong local ULO groups in Surrey, where I live, has been so ULO organisation has had a major impact on the important, helping me navigate the minefield of development and shape of services, and there are information and pathways to health and social care many similar local examples of the work and impact provision for users and carers. What really helped was of ULOs of disabled people which I am sure noble that I was talking to advisers who were themselves Lords will highlight in this debate. However, direct users of the care and health systems that they were government funding to ULOs ceased at the end of advising on or signposting to. This is one of the key 2010, when the 2008-10 programme ran out, although strengths of user-led organisation, and what led the some funding is still provided to the NCIL under Labour Government to make a major investment in Section 64 powers and through the Office for Disability their continued development and to ensure that they under the Right to Control trailblazers work. In the had a key role in the transformation of social care and current climate, for ULOs to survive, to continue to personalisation agenda. undertake their vital role and for their operation to The Social Care Institute for Excellence emphasised extend into other localities, there needs to be continued that personalisation starts with seeing the person as an and active support at a national level. individual with strengths, preferences and aspirations There is increasing concern at the impact of cutting and puts them at the centre of indentifying their needs the current local authority grants and contracts with and making choices about how and when they are the ULOs. The Disability Rights Partnership has supported. ULOs for disabled people are organisations highlighted, for example, the recent closure of DPAN where service users determine their own needs and Northamptonshire after two other non user-led planning support and themselves have expertise which organisations won contracts for work it was previously they utilise in the advice and services they provide. involved with. This came shortly after the demise of SCIE underlines the importance of ULOs having a another user-led organisation, Ability Northamptonshire. rightful place in the social care and community Cutting grants and shrinking contracts will only shrink marketplace, promoting equality and reaching out to the potential pool of providers at a time when it needs people who need social care support, especially supporting expanding. marginalised people. Personalisation goes beyond giving personal budgets I would like to ask the Minister how the Government or direct payments to individuals, and ULOs help to will ensure that commissioning requirements create a ensure access to the right information, advice and level playing field between small user-led mutuals advocacy. This is why the Labour Government invested and organisations and their larger either voluntary or heavily in promoting the setting up and development profit-making counterparts. Existing commissioning of ULOs for disabled people, and provided substantial services favour large providers and often overlook the support funding for local authorities to invest and added value of ULOs. This inhibits user-led entry. work with them. Under the transformation of social Commissioning requirements should provide a level care agenda, ULOs have developed a particular role playing field for ULOs, including accessibility in bids and expertise in supporting people using direct payments and tenders. ULOs face entry costs due to disability-related or personal budgets, assisting with the self-assessment expenditure and other barriers for which they need to process and in the recruitment and employment of be supported to overcome. Service agreements, payment personal assistants for disabled people. This is a key by results and preferred provider lists need to be role for a number of ULOs, and there are many reviewed and sub-contracting to micro-providers needs excellent examples of ULOs working with local to be incentivised. We need to ensure that ULOs have employment advice organisations and trade unions to the requisite capacity and support to enable them to ensure fair pay rates and good employment practice, bid for key public service contracts. standards and conditions for personal assistants. I welcome the Government’s recent announcement There is no national data collection on the number of the ULO fund of £3 million for disabled people’s of ULOs, although I understand the National Council organisations and would like to ask the Minister how for Independent Living, the umbrella organisation for it will be administered and how disabled people will be ULOs, is currently undertaking a sector audit, which involved in its design and implementation. Also, what will give a much needed clearer picture. ULOs by their other measures will the Government be taking to very nature are developed locally to reflect community encourage innovative social enterprise by ULOs? The needs. The strong support for ULOs by a number of ULO fund, while welcome, amounts to little more local authorities has been in the form of direct grants than £5,000 per year per local authority in England and contracts to provide services, including information for the next three years. provision, advocacy and supporting self-directed care Also, within the Government’s plans for localism, programmes. My own area in Surrey has a strong the big society, the right of independent living—and ULO organisation in the excellent Surrey Independent within their oft-repeated mantra that local authorities GC 59 Disabled People: User-led Organisations[8 JUNE 2011] Disabled People: User-led Organisations GC 60 must make their own decisions on local priorities in what is going on. Occasionally fashions in ideas may the light of local needs and resources—I ask the change but mainly it is based on practicality. That way Minister what steps they will take to encourage local we avoid those “does he take sugar?” mistakes. That authorities to co-produce innovative services with ULOs way we try to get the correct information to those who and to support service provision by way of user-led are in power and making those decisions. User-led social enterprise. organisations are often a very good way of addressing Can the Minister advise how the services relating to these problems. They are not a magic bullet—in my the personalisation of social care, which the Government own world of dyslexia, I have often met people who continue to support and is currently provided by ULOs, say, “We will do everything”. I am afraid dyslexics do will be provided where ULO funding has been cut or not make terribly good secretaries of groups or good stopped? These services include essential advice and managers of diaries. People must make sure that they administrative support for people using direct payments learn to ask for help; there have been occasions when and personal budgets and for users employing personal they have failed by not being prepared to ask for assistants. enough help. If you experience problems, you will I close by paying tribute to one of the pioneers of know when to ask for outside help and when to do the independent living movement and of user-led something. We are talking about people with disabilities organisations who died recently, Nasa Begum. I did and once again—I have said it dozens of times and I not know her personally but I do know about her will say it again—if any dyslexic says to me, “I am enormous contribution and inspirational work. Nasa differently abled, not disabled”, I hand him an insurance was a professional social worker and she brought her form to fill out quickly and under pressure. When he professional skills and personal charisma and energy has failed at that I say, “This is why we have legislation, to the first National Centre for Independent Living. this is why we have a framework, this is why we do the As a disabled woman from a BME community and stuff we do. You are going to have to try to access also a mental health services user and “survivor”, support and help”. If we are going to fulfil our agenda Nasa particularly championed the greater involvement of getting people into jobs, we must make sure people of BME communities in the creation of more inclusive know how to give the correct assistance at the right communities. She was a prolific author of many books time. We must talk to those who understand the and papers and her book, Towards Managing User-led problems to find out the correct way to make a change. Services, had a major impact in providing the framework Having said all that—and here endeth the sermon—I for a new partnership approach which encouraged all say to the Government, “What are we doing to make sections of the community as active partners in designing sure you drag in this pool of expertise to make the job services and support that are personalised and culturally of Government easier?”. That is the big question. If appropriate. I am sure noble Lords will join with me in we are not to continue with the previous model, how paying tribute to Nasa and expressing our sorrow at else do we do it? The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, her untimely death. spoke about sub-contracting and feeding into smaller groups as one way forward. Making sure that people 5.53 pm who apply for these support jobs actually have contact Lord Addington: My Lords, when I saw on the with disabled people, and that it is seen as a benefit, Order Paper the subject we are debating today and put would be a very sensible way forward. Thus, you may my name down for it, I immediately thought of one be able to combine the best of both worlds. Cats and thing: that it is sensible that user groups,—the people skinning come to mind here, but it is making sure we who suffer from disabilities—should be heard first. get the correct information in. Those groups with This is for selfish reasons for everyone else because, if outside experience will always have at least a very you get a good idea of what the problems are, you useful perspective on how to do this. We should also stand a chance of taking the right action to address study how this will get through to the interface. them quickly and concisely and thus save the costs The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has had experience involved in getting it wrong. Mistakes can, in certain of this and I would be interested to hear what his take cases, result in legal activity and often mean that the is from his own experience in office, when we had to benefits and medical services have to pick up the deal with similar problems. I hope the noble Lord, pieces further down the line. Wear and tear on carers is Lord Freud, will not think me presumptuous by saying another consideration. It is trying to get an understanding this is one occasion when you should listen to your of where most mistakes in the system tend to be made. political opponent because he has experienced it for It is safe to say that there is good will from everyone quite a long time and indeed I bored him for a quite a involved, but people often make decisions and try to long time on these and similar subjects. How can we implement them but do not quite understand how to encourage that interface? How will we make sure that do so. They then find themselves in a corner and we work properly to drag in the information? If we do without the right amount of communication to be not, we will make costly mistakes that will sometimes able to back off when they have made mistakes. end in litigation and will always end in on-costs further This is a Treasury Bench problem, no matter who is down the line. How can we encourage people—and in government. The previous Government did their this is the big challenge to operators—to say, “I do not best to try on occasions. Sometimes they got it wrong, know the answer, can I go and get somebody who sometimes they got it right. I do not think at any point does?”. I find this is one of the most difficult parts of they were looking to get it wrong. We who have been dealing with any government official, encouraging giving advice in Parliament, through the contact we them to say, “I do not know, I will find out, let us have with outside groups, have been able to reassess figure out something else”. This is something that is GC 61 Disabled People: User-led Organisations[LORDS] Disabled People: User-led Organisations GC 62

[LORD ADDINGTON] At this point, Baroness Wilkins continued the speech for very difficult to do by diktat. It is almost counterintuitive Baroness Campbell of Surbiton. but it is vital to make sure it works properly. If the The ULO ethos has been particularly important in Minister can say something on this subject I will be the development of personalisation, so much so that it eternally grateful. became a key objective in the 2005 Improving the Life Chances of Disabled People strategy, which said that 6pm there should be a user-led organisation in every area with social service responsibilities by December 2010. Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: My Lords, I, too, There have been some notable advances, but the funding thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for giving us and policy push came almost entirely from the Department this opportunity to debate the future of ULOs. I shall of Health. That funding is now coming to an end, but try not to get confused and talk about UFOs, because there are over 60 areas still waiting for a ULO. there is a practical joke in the disability movement Lack of funding, of course, is only one part of the about this. I shall talk particularly about ULOs and problem. Another has been linking ULOs so strongly their relationship to the personalisation agenda. I also with social care services and the Department of Health. thank the noble Baroness for her very kind words. ULOs are not solely about social care, and neither is I should start by declaring an interest as a trustee personalisation. The majority of ULOs were established and co-founder of the National Centre for Independent to further the broader goal of supporting disabled Living. NCIL is one of the largest user-led umbrella people to live independently, working across a range organisations in the UK. It pioneered the personalisation of life areas other than social care: transport, housing, agenda long before it was adopted by social care health and leisure. So, if the Government want to professionals and civil servants—and long before deliver the personalisation agenda, ULOs have to be politicians did so. One of the first user-led organisations understood, resourced and supported from across national in the UK was the British Deaf Association, which and local government. dates all the way back to the 1890s. User-led organisations have one central principle, which is summed up in the The Essex Coalition of Disabled People recently slogan, “Nothing about us without us”. This phrase conducted a study, resulting in the report on key issues does not belong in the NHS and did not come from a facing ULOs. Interestingly, it identified the narrow politician but originated in the early 1980s at an social care approach as one of the major reasons why eastern European conference of disabled people. They ULOs have struggled to succeed. I know that the were fed up with others making wrong decisions about Minister for Disabled People in the other place has their lives by not involving them, very simply. From been particularly impressed by this ULO as a role then on disabled people’s influence over their situation model for the future. It and others rightly say that escalated, becoming a social movement touching on personalisation can be delivered efficiently and effectively all issues that affected their lives, such as transport, only with joined-up thinking and resourcing responsibility. access to the built environment, social service support, At this point Baroness Campbell of Surbiton resumed. healthcare, housing and so on. I was very privileged to I was privileged to chair the Government’s Independent be a child of that liberating time. Living Scrutiny Group for two years. It looks across There are now a whole range of ULOs led by all government for evidence of this kind of delivery. I sorts of people who use services, including mental know how difficult this is to achieve, but we really health service users, young and older people, people need to crank up the mechanisms to do this. Can the who have been in care, carers, people with long-term Minister tell me what plans he has for this? illnesses—not, as many would think, just physically ULO personalisation services require an enabling disabled people such as the noble Baroness, Lady framework that helps them to be more self-sufficient. Wilkins, or me. That is, not just wheelchair users. Small pushes can help—for instance, with the use of ULOs represent an ongoing challenge to stigma, as the EC Article 19 procurement directive, which allows they demonstrate not only what service users are capable for public contracts to give preference to businesses of doing for themselves but, more significantly, what with a workforce that is over 50 per cent disabled. If they can do for society. For example, Hampshire Centre local authorities were encouraged to do this, it would for Independent Living pioneered the blueprint for help ULOs enormously in the bidding market. The direct payments, again long before it became part of Essex study and previous research conducted by Leeds an Act of Parliament and long before any politician University clearly shows that when an organisation had even heard of the words. involves disabled people throughout, the support costs Shaping Our Lives is a notable example of a national are higher than for those that do not. The commissioning ULO. It has been funded by government and NGOs, culture has never really factored that realism into its such as the Rowntree Foundation, to conduct research procurement processes, so ULOs have lost out. Will and evaluation, led by service users. The high quality the Minister assure us he will liaise with the Minister of its evidence has informed public policy and practice responsible for local government on how this enabling for over a decade. In 2009 alone, it carried out studies power could be incentivised within local authorities? and developed practice guidance for the Crown This will enable ULOs to survive better in the marketplace. Prosecution policy on witnesses and victims with mental We have heard a great deal about the Government’s health and learning disabilities, on user-led involvement £3 million over the next four years to help build in social work, and on future housing services for capacity and support ambassadors. This is welcome, older people. Most of the work is overseen by Professor but as I think I have shown, disabled people have Peter Beresford. Here is the big society at work. demonstrated their ability to provide the solutions to GC 63 Disabled People: User-led Organisations[8 JUNE 2011] Disabled People: User-led Organisations GC 64 their own problems, against the odds, since as far back noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, said, its importance as the 1890s. What we need more than ever is money to was recognised by the previous Government’s Strategy pay the rent on accessible offices, computers, wages for Unit report, Improving the Life Chances of Disabled staff—yes, that old chestnut—infrastructure funding People, which recommended that there should be a that cannot be found from service contracts alone. user-led organisation, modelled on existing CILs, in I look forward to hearing from the Minister about every social services area by 2010. Does the Minister the Government’s imaginative plans to help disabled still see the value of that recommendation, and would people continue to help themselves and others through he support it? the dynamic network of ULOs. Personalisation will I shall concentrate on the experience of these small never happen without them. local organisations and on what the Government can do to support them. The local disability organisations 6.09 pm have been the drivers in developing the independent Baroness Wilkins: I, too, thank my noble friend living services throughout the country. The take-up of Lady Wheeler for her kind words, and for securing this direct payments has succeeded because user-led debate on a subject that, at its heart, is one reason why organisations understood what was needed in order I became a Member of your Lordships’ House. I declare for them to succeed. They provided the necessary an interest as vice-chair of my local borough disability assistance in recruiting and employing personal assistants, user-led association—Hammersmith and Fulham Action payroll services, information, advice and advocacy, for Disability, or HAFAD. I would like to say how but, crucially, they provided the confidence through delighted we are that, following the debate on 5 May, peer support and local networks. the Minister accepted our invitation to visit. Since direct local authority grants dried up, HAFAD, I became disabled the year the Disablement Income like many borough organisations, has derived the majority Group, known as DIG, was formed by two women of its funding from providing these services to the who had developed MS and found that they, and council through service level agreements. However, the thousands of others, had no right to any income larger profit-making providers see the market in this support. That was 1966. That user-led organisation is work and constitute a major threat to our existence. seen by many as the start of the disability movement With their lower overheads, they can undercut small in Britain, a movement that has led millions of disabled user-led organisations such as HAFAD. people to recognise that our position in society is Now, to save money, local authorities are increasingly politically driven and that society could be changed to banding together to award contracts. Currently, HAFAD’s accommodate our needs. direct payment support service is faced with the prospect Unless you have experienced disability, you cannot of tendering for a new contract to be spread over four understand its daily living reality, and I came to it with boroughs—Hammersmith and Fulham, Kensington the same ignorance as most non-disabled people. DIG, and Chelsea, Brent, and Hillingdon. It would be a mass movement of people over the whole range of impossible for us to cover that area or for anyone to impairments, was fighting for the extra costs of living provide the essential local support. with a disability to be recognised and for an income benefit to be given regardless of the cause of impairment. One of the most important things that the Government There were rallies in Trafalgar Square, petitions to could do is to ensure that the importance of local Parliament and lobbying of Ministers. DIG introduced user-led support is given its proper value in competition me to political campaigning, but, most importantly, it for contracts. Perhaps I may echo my noble friend welcomed me to a world of people who had faced and Lady Wheeler in asking the Minister what the Government were living with the same experiences as me. It was to will do to ensure a level playing field between the small those people whom I turned for help and information user-led organisations and their larger, profit-making about housing, about how to get around, about places counterparts when it comes to commissioning. that were accessible and about how to find equipment HAFAD’s excellent employment project, which was that I could use, whether it was an accessible car or a succeeding in getting disabled people who had never manageable ironing board. My fellow disabled people had any prospect of work into work after long periods had been there before, knew the real barriers to be of unemployment, has already been lost to the big overcome and had found solutions. contractors that won all the Work Choice and Work It is this shared lived experience that is the unique Programme contracts. As a result, we had to lay off all value of user-led organisations. It is a value to which the staff except the manager, and we are using the policy-makers pay lip service but which is far too organisation’s reserves to fund his search for subcontracts. easily overlooked and jettisoned when it comes to the In west London, the Work Choice contract went to crunch, especially funding. It is very hard to convey Seetec, which has subcontracted to Leonard Cheshire, how important this is, but it provides a quality of help among others. Leonard Cheshire has now approached and support that no one else can give. The noble HAFAD for help with its delivery in west London and Baroness, Lady Wheeler, has eloquently expressed how has asked for training in our access-to-work expertise, important it was to her. The Government need to as it does not have specialist knowledge. So the user-led understand and constantly reinforce its value if services organisation is bled dry of funds and staff, while are truly to meet people’s needs. supporting others to provide a service, when it could This is the unique value of the small user-led local have been given the security of a contract in the first organisations for disabled people such as HAFAD, place. User-led organisations can provide this expertise many of them centres for independent living. As the only if it is properly recognised and valued, and the GC 65 Disabled People: User-led Organisations[LORDS] Disabled People: User-led Organisations GC 66

[BARONESS WILKINS] That requires careful identification and then placement. Government could have helped by making it a requirement The Centre for Mental Health is currently supporting on the winning contractor to work with specialist nine centres of excellence, which are using an individual organisations at a local level. placement and support model across the country. That The problem is that the small user-led organisations model is based carefully on this business of finding survive only by a jigsaw of funding of these projects. If out what each individual needs. What also applies to it one project goes to the wall, it undermines the framework is having people trained as individual placement and of the whole organisation because it is almost impossible support workers who have been attached to user-led to get funding for the running costs of an organisation and other organisations because they can advise those either from trusts or local authorities, so a charge has organisations on how best to look after people who to be made on each project to cover those costs. If a come and work with them. major project is lost, the whole organisation becomes One problem in prisons at the moment is that no vulnerable. Yet the organisation has to have a director structured mental health treatment is available for this and finance officer if it is to be competently managed vast number. I was much heartened by the Government’s and have proper financial control. Can I ask the paper, Breaking the Cycle, in which the Justice Secretary Minister whether the Government have any plans to said that they were at last going to tackle this problem. address this problem? Indeed, I have had discussions with the Department of Like many organisations, HAFAD has been trying Health as to how this might be. However, having heard to become self-sufficient through social enterprise schemes what the centre had come across, particularly about and partnerships. Not only is there the problem of the the user-led organisations, one idea that struck me extremely stretched management framework of the was: what better thing to do than to localise this by organisation, which leaves little time to develop social employing local user-led organisations to go into prisons enterprise, but small user-led organisations have no and help people who, after all, will come out of prison assets to provide collateral for bank loans. Major and whose employment will be out of prison. I was fundraising requires a massive investment of time, and therefore very concerned when I heard that there were these organisations can turn only to government to threats to the user-led organisations, which looked like provide the seed money required. I hope that the being one of the key tools in resolving a problem. Government are listening. I was encouraged to speak because one of the great I add my tribute to Nasa Begum for her wonderful messages that I got from the Sainsbury centre was that contribution to spreading understanding of the value my noble friend Lady Campbell was challenging the of user control, and most especially for being the only Government on the cuts that were being imposed and wheelchair user I have known who went bungee-jumping asking them to spell out the impact that they might in a wheelchair in Australia. have on user-led organisations. Always being happy to support my noble friend, I felt that I would add this other area, which I would be most grateful if the 6.17 pm Minister could look into—not least to alert the Ministry Lord Ramsbotham: I, too, thank the noble Baroness, of Justice that there is a potential problem here, which Lady Wheeler, for obtaining this debate. I shall be could be solved before causing more problems than it brief. I declare an interest as a former adviser and now deserves. vice-president to the former the Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health—now the Centre for Mental Health— 6.22 pm because I wish to comment particularly on the mentally disabled. I want to concentrate on an area in which the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank my treatment of the mentally disabled is not good, has noble friend Lady Wheeler for securing this debate not been good, but—it has been announced—is going today. I did write out a bit of a script, but having just to be better. My concern is that what appears to be listened to some powerful contributions I think I will happening in the user-led agency is likely to deny a discard most of it. My noble friend says that this is her way of putting that right. I refer to the well of psychiatric first Question for Short Debate; I feel sure and hope morbidity in Her Majesty’s prisons, where it is reckoned that it will not be the last. I was particularly pleased that at least 70 per cent suffer from some form of when she referred to Nasa Begum and the work that identifiable personality disorder—and some a great she has done, because when we talk about social deal worse. workers it is all too often when there is a problem and For the past four years, the centre has been somebody is being challenged. There are many people concentrating on two aspects of work—the treatment in that field who do fantastic work, day in day out. of those who are mentally disordered in prisons, and They are unsung heroes and it is nice to have an the problems faced by those with mental disorders in opportunity, even given the circumstances, to be able obtaining employment. The employment issue is linked to join in the praise for somebody who has achieved a with prisons, but the centre has more generally been great deal. looking closely at the employment of people with When I saw that the list of speakers contained the mental health problems in the community. It has become usual suspects, I knew it was going to be a powerful abundantly clear that the key area for achieving debate. If there is any benefit in not being a Minister, it independent living for the mentally disabled is is that I am not responsible for answering such questions employment, and that the best way of achieving that is these days. Picking up on a couple of points in the through individualised support based on their sort of contributions so far, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord sustainable lifestyle and what they can actually do. Addington, that it is generally not about lack of GC 67 Disabled People: User-led Organisations[8 JUNE 2011] Disabled People: User-led Organisations GC 68 goodwill. Government policymakers and local government fettered by quite a few powers held at the centre by the do not set about their task to get it wrong or to Secretary of State, but that is for another debate. damage and hurt people. It is about understanding. People must be supported in being able to take up and The noble Lord talked about the need to encourage an make real use of those rights and funding should be interface. If he was looking to me for pearls of wisdom attached to doing that. on that, I may disappoint him but there is no overall Briefly, and to reiterate points other noble Lords prescription for how you deal with it. You have to have made, questions were put about the commitment work at it hard and recognise the need for that. that the previous Government made. The Improving The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, has an effective the Life Chances of Disabled People report said that, way of chiding politicians to remind us that we came “by 2010 each locality (defined as an area covered by a council in at the end of this process and that people have been with social services responsibilities) should have a user-led organisation engaged many years before we even woke up to the modelled on existing CILs [centres for independent living]. This issue. I accept that, while the mantra of “nothing recommendation has been taken forward as part of the cross- without us” carries through from the 1980s until today. government Independent Living Strategy”. The issue about ULOs challenging stigma is particularly I am right to ask the Minister whether that is still part pertinent. We all agree that ULOs need to be properly of this Government’s approach to these matters—is understood, resourced and supported. that still a commitment they would wish to take forward? There are issues about infrastructure funding and I Putting People First talked about the transformation turn now to the £3 million fund that has been announced of adult social care and stated that, recently. The noble Baroness referred to the Localism “councils should have an enabling framework to ensure that Bill and the opportunities it presents. people can exercise choice and control and have access to advocacy, peer support and brokerage systems with strong links to ULOs. Where ULOs do not exist, a strategy to foster, stimulate and 6.25 pm develop ULOs locally should be developed”. Is the noble Lord, Lord Freud, able to say anything Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. further on that matter? Reference has been made to the £3 million-worth of funding that has been made 6.37 pm available. I join others in supporting and congratulating Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I was going on the Government on doing that. But that funding is to localism but, before I do so, perhaps I may recap. I spread over four years and it has to cover things like a walked out to vote with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, new national head, somebody to be seconded to the and I think that what he was seeking for me to say Office for Disability Issues from a ULO, and the earlier was not to report some success I had had with document talks about ambassadors and experts to working with colleagues from dyslexia groups but to provide skills and training support. It also refers to report the failure; that however much one had tried, it there being a facilitation fund for ULOs. Does all of had not succeeded. So perhaps I can clarify that. that have to come out of the £3 million over that four-year period? Specifically, is that fund part of the Before I get to localism perhaps I should refer to £3 million? The press release that accompanied the the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, announcement said that the facilitation fund would be, which I found fascinating. I went to a seminar at the Centre for Mental Health earlier in the week. The “available for ULOs to bid for small to moderate amounts of money for specific projects”. seminar was about getting people into employment, although not necessarily through user-led organisations. Might the noble Lord, Lord Freud, let us have his It emphasised the key importance of having a mentor interpretation of what “small and moderate” might who stays with a person and how the one-to-one mean in these circumstances? To conclude on localism, relationship makes an important difference. One can the community right to challenge: there is an opportunity see the added benefit if that person comes from a there for ULOs but it must be a real opportunity, they user-led organisation as well. must have the capacity to be able to do that, and perhaps the noble Lord might be able to say something My noble friend Lady Wilkins made the incredibly further about that. telling point that if you are not disabled you cannot understand the daily living reality of being disabled. 6.44 pm That is why it is so important that we have user-led organisations. She expanded on some of the difficulties The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, of getting funding and winning contracts. I have seen Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My that locally in Luton in relation to a case where, Lords, I would like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady although the process is not yet complete, small Wheeler, for the opportunity to discuss disabled people’s organisations have already missed out because they user-led organisations and the broader personalisation are competing against big organisations which are agenda. I would also like to thank those who have used, on a national basis, to getting the process right; contributed to this short debate this afternoon. It is a they know exactly what is required and smaller crucial area of work and I know that for many noble organisations are therefore missing out. Lords—many more than are here—it is an area of This actually ties in with issues around localism utmost importance. I also join in the tributes that have because if localism is about empowering individuals, been paid to Nasa Begum. local communities and local groups to have a greater Let me begin by agreeing with everyone who has say over their lives, the rights in legislation have to be spoken in support of disabled people’s user-led real for people and not just nominal rights. Some are organisations and of their importance. I will use “the GC 69 Disabled People: User-led Organisations[LORDS] Disabled People: User-led Organisations GC 70

[LORD FREUD] The money will fund a national lead role shared by organisations” as shorthand, otherwise I shall use up a civil servant and a disabled people’s representative, much more time than I have available. These organisations and link government and disabled people’s organisations have a unique insight and are a powerful voice for at a high level. This will create a central, national focus disabled people and the Government recognise their for these organisations and cement their national presence. important role in shaping future service provision. We Beneath the national lead there will be a network want to secure their continued involvement by developing of around 12 ambassadors, broadly spread out their skills and building on their experience. With the geographically. This will be complemented by a range current need to reduce the deficit and rein in public of expert volunteers matched to organisations in their spending, budgets everywhere are tight. area that need their skills. All too often these organisations have told us that they lack the specific skills needed to We know that many local authorities have decided run a successful organisation—skills ranging from to reduce grant funding for these organisations, leaving accountancy and financial management to human them to rely on other means of generating income, resources support and business planning. such as the supply of services. However, with a new emphasis on personalisation and localised delivery of Finally, there will be a facilitation fund providing services, there are opportunities for these organisations small grants for these organisations to address specific to develop alternative sources of income and continue needs. This cash-limited fund will be managed by the to be involved on the ground in support of disabled national lead and a group of ambassadors, and be people. used to pay for things that support the sustainability of these organisations. Recruitment for these posts This Government have to spend wisely. We are not closed last week and we have received a great deal of in a position to throw money at these organisations, interest, with around 10 applications for the lead role and the investment we are making in cash and time and 81 applications for the ambassador positions. The must be targeted so that a little will go a long way. package will formally be launched next month, when Working closely with these organisations, we have we will announce who has been appointed. It will help devised a package of support designed to get the most these organisations to develop their skills and expertise. out of the money we have put in. I will outline the details of the package in a moment, but let me just put Let me pick up on some of the points raised. The this approach into a wider context. noble Baronesses, Lady Wheeler and Lady Wilkins, both asked how we will encourage local authorities to The work that organisations such as these have commission through these organisations. We are looking been doing—bringing people together, volunteering to the ambassadors to work with local authorities and their expertise and influencing policy—is exactly the to help local authority commissioners understand the kind of thing that the Prime Minister means when he added value that can be gained from working with talks about the big society, a point made by the noble these organisations. That support will allow the Baroness, Lady Campbell. For groups such as these, organisations to compete more effectively. We will the big society is already a reality. We want to use the emphasise through the ambassador network the added limited funding available to build on this good work value that they can bring above and beyond what more and develop an even bigger society, acting professionally, commercial entities can offer. delivering services and working alongside local and national government to deliver more for disabled people. The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, asked what plans the Government had to crank up the delivery of The advantages of working with organisations such the personalisation agenda. Our figures show that in as these are clear. They are the experts in their own September last year 248,000 people were receiving a disabilities; they are organised, knowledgeable and in personal budget. That is a good increase of 100,000 on many cases already provide support and services alongside the previous April, but it is still pretty patchy and we those provided by the public sector. Often those services are determined to boost what is happening on that are more innovative, work better for their users and front. cost less to provide than the public sector alternative. Essentially, these organisations already know what In response to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and works and they have clear ideas about what does not. the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, I can confirm that The Government want to tap into that knowledge. we want disabled people to have access to a good, strong organisation in their area. The noble Baroness, However, our experience of working with these Lady Campbell, asked what local authorities might do organisations has also demonstrated that some groups to compensate for the extra costs. I shall write to the are lacking the professional, business and leadership Minister at the department with that question. skills they need to drive their organisations forward and to weather the current economic climate. That is The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, made an why we have devised a package, working closely with interesting point about mental health. This is an enormous representative organisations, to deliver £3 million of and very complicated area. I am extremely conscious support designed to build capability, communicate that we have not got this right, particularly in prisons. best practice and bring in voluntary expertise. In answer We are talking to the MoJ. I take very seriously mental to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, the £3 million health issues in this area, but I find it very hard to find encompasses the full support package. It is doing what a coherent set of solutions. However, I am conscious the noble Lord, Lord Addington, called for—making that this is something that we need to get on with in sure that we have a way of dragging in the expertise of the months and years to come. I take the noble Lord’s these organisations to help disabled people. point. GC 71 Disabled People: User-led Organisations[8 JUNE 2011] Anti-Semitism GC 72

I know that many noble Lords are champions of Minister happens to be a Muslim and there will be disabled people’s user-led organisations. I leave the others who participate who may have no act of faith at Committee with the simple message that so are this the moment. And so it should be. We should all Government. This is an area that we want to champion. engage on issues of intolerance involving our Jewish We will continue to support and encourage those population because such acts and attitudes tarnish organisations’ involvement and help them develop and diminish our society as a whole—and, of course, into the professional operations that we know they they are easily transferrable, in one nexus of intolerance, can be. from one community to another, and that is intolerable too. Anti-Semitism I am a member of the British delegation to the Question for Short Debate Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. I should early on in the debate draw the Committee’s 6.55 pm attention to a worrying upward trend in anti-Semitism Asked By Lord Boswell of Aynho internationally. As with our own British situation, this may from time to time burst out overtly into the public To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps gaze. I remember going past synagogues in Vienna they will take to tackle anti-Semitism and what and seeing the police guard and so on and finding it assessment they have made of the success of the depressing. cross-government working group on anti-Semitism. I am concerned equally by the Holocaust deniers, Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, some noble who tend to be rather noisy, and by what I might call Lords may be aware that in another place I participated the anti-Semitism deniers, who tend to be less open in the all-party inquiry on anti-Semitism which sat in about it. We in Britain, at least in our Committee’s 2005 and reported in 2006. I should make it clear that work, were honest enough to confess to our problems, I did so neither as a member of the Jewish faith nor as but I become concerned when I hear other countries a Member of Parliament who had then taken much deny that contemporary problems exist or perhaps interest in, or at least shown overt commitment to, the define them as merely extensive with those who happen political affairs of the Middle East. It would be fair to to hold views that are critical of the Israeli political say that that degree of detachment was not confined system or policies. With perhaps the exception of to me; among the 14 members of the committee there Germany because of its own ghastly history, accepted was that general pattern. It informed the nature—I by nearly all those in responsible positions in Germany, hope dispassionate nature—of the conclusions of our too many other European countries turned a blind eye work. to pressure on their resident Jewish populations. This is perhaps partly because those populations—sadly, I should begin with a confession to the Committee. but it needs saying—have been reduced by the Holocaust, After waiting six months for this debate, I booked the and they are now often by no means the largest faith date when offered it without realising that it fell on the minority. Nor in many cases do they have direct political Jewish festival of Shavuot, which has precluded a clout. number of noble Lords who are religiously observant, including the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, from participation. I turn now to the specific issues raised in our 2006 All I can say in mitigation is that I still felt that it was inquiry and the government response. I have to say right in the circumstances to proceed because these that there is much to celebrate and commend here. issues needed airing. I also realised that if I could be Under both the previous Government and the current so careless in my respect for others when I trusted my coalition Government there has been a determined motivation was impeccable, how easy it is for us to and positive response at both ministerial and official neglect cross-cultural issues and the sensitivities that level. This has spanned a wide range of government there are; and how easy also it is, for example, for a departments, through the cross-government working university academic, who might be less benignly disposed, group, and has drawn in partners from the agencies of to overlook the legitimate claims of Jewish or other the Jewish community. This dialogue has already led students in the setting of exam dates and somehow to three successive government responses, reporting to finding that they coincided with a religious festival parliamentarians of all kinds in the light of that and created difficulties for the students. We all need to inquiry. One benefit of the occasion is to be seen when sharpen our act, and I shall be one of those. My you revisit the latest White Paper that came out last overwhelming message to the Committee is that we December; for a government document it is, dare I say, need to be alert in these issues. quite a meaty response, with a lot of facts in it as to Beyond the strict remit of my Question, I do not what has been achieved and what still needs to be feel that any views that Members may have on the achieved. Parliamentarians across the House and in Middle East situation or on the position of the Israeli the other place have maintained focus on that area Government—and I do have some of my own—should and, in certain cases—and I include myself in relation in any sense condone issues around anti-Semitism, to Holland—have taken the example of our work to a although they are often used as a proxy. number of other Parliaments. This culminated in the first international conference on the subject in London, Our concern here should primarily be with our in February 2009. domestic situation within the United Kingdom. This is rightly the concern of Members across the House. It I shall now comment briefly on a number of is also important, and perhaps a useful piece of symbolism, outstanding issues. First, hate crime itself—and these that I speak as a Christian. My noble friend the are crimes, whether they are attacks on individuals, GC 73 Anti-Semitism[LORDS] Anti-Semitism GC 74

[LORD BOSWELL OF AYNHO] I confess from the beginning that I had been somewhat buildings or cemeteries—continues in Britain at historically complacent on this issue. From my background, which high levels. However, there is now better public articulation I perhaps romanticise, during my schooldays in my of the policing and other issues around them, and native south Wales, not one of a number of Jewish there is valuable co-operation with the community friends mentioned having in any way suffered forms of support trusts. Having as part of our inquiry visited a anti-Semitism. That complacency was punctured when Jewish school in a Paris suburb which had been burnt I noted a few years ago that the synagogue in my home out before we were there—and which, I found to my city of Swansea was damaged. Indeed, last December distress, was burnt out again after we visited—I welcome I noted that among the cities where groups had been the money that the present Government have been arrested because of their targeting of rabbis and able to find for school security. I hope that that will synagogues was Cardiff, the capital city of Wales, so continue. It is appropriate at this point to mention, in that complacency is no longer. difficult times, the money that the Government have It is obviously easy to target or mention the BNP recently made available to the Auschwitz-Birkenau but we delude ourselves if we do not recognise the role Foundation—a good international lead. of Muslim extremists, certainly in my part of south Secondly, we know that there is an outstanding Wales, who have been responsible for the change in issue in higher education. I am sure that others will atmosphere. It is surprising in a way, given that hate want to comment on this. As a former Minister in that crimes affect mainly ordinary Muslims and Jews. field myself, I cannot remain silent. Universities are Rationally, one would hope that there would be some one of our glories, and they flourish through the form of co-operation between the victims. Much of pursuit of light and liberty. We can never be content the hatred is directed at Jews indirectly because of for them to act as agents for academic boycotts or the Israel. The Community Security Trust shows a correlation denial of free speech on any reasonable or sensible between, for example, the Gaza incident last year and the arrangements, let alone the fostering or condoning of incidence of attacks on the Jewish population, where violent attacks. Of course, I know that most academics attacks on Israel are often a proxy for attacks on Jews. would take exactly the same view as I do. Very valuable work is being actioned through the Equality Challenge It is interesting to read the valedictory article by Unit and the vice-chancellors themselves, but there are Ron Prosor, the outgoing Israeli ambassador, in the still cases where individual Jewish academics are targeted, Daily Telegraph last weekend. He stated that as an and Jewish students may feel chilled or deterred from Israeli ambassador—and indirectly, no doubt, as a attending particular institutions. Universities have a Jew—he was barred from many campuses, which is public sector equality duty, and they should follow it. wholly contrary to the tolerant traditions of our At a more demotic level, I welcome the work of universities. That must be in part because of the community leaders such as Gary Lineker and what is weakness or unwillingness of vice-chancellors to confront being done in sport. There is identification of some this problem. What is clear when university academics clubs with the Jewish population, not just in Britain, and trade unions criticise Israel is that they fail to and we need role models. Political parties also have a notice that the Israeli universities are by far the freest job to discharge at election time, and to criticise those in their region and that the Israeli trade unionists are who do not. by far the most vocal and free in that whole region. It is absurd that Israel should be singled out in that way. To summarise, I hope that, as a result of our work, parliamentarians and the Government are now engaged Returning to the UK, obviously the problems include in an integrated approach to pushing intolerance in hatred on the internet, which is extremely difficult to this country to the margins where it deserves to be. regulate. It is not the time today to go into the Prevent There cannot be any complacency or let-up in the strategy, published yesterday, but I am sure that there process of reviewing this and there is no amnesia for will be another debate on that. the lessons of the Holocaust. Old hatreds may be We end on good news. The all-party report of 2006, buried but they have not gone forever. Our task is to to which the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, made a good create opportunities to tackle specific abuses while contribution, received a positive response from both setting a moral tone which is wholly intolerant to the Labour and coalition Governments. All its extremism. We need to express respect for individuals recommendations have been taken seriously, including and to meet their problems but, above all, we need to the cross-government working group which has built be ready at any time to take a stand on this. up expertise and has ensured that there is a joined-up government response. Both Governments have given 7.06 pm an important lead. I noticed when we prayed this Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, as a fellow afternoon that one of the phrases that we often use is Christian I am delighted to follow my noble friend. I “the tranquillity of the realm”, which is highly relevant can call the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, my noble friend to the attacks on hate crime. I hope that the Government’s as he has a proud record in the other place and work on hate crime will continue in the Council of here—and, may I say, in the Council of Europe, which Europe, and that we can try to promote greater takes hate crime very seriously. I follow him and I understanding between Jews and Muslims. The law congratulate him. Indeed, in terms of the Council of and central government can only go so far. The battle Europe it may well be that one of the priorities of this must be fought in hearts and minds; it must be fought Government when we assume the presidency later this among churches working at a local level and among year will be to raise the issue of hate crime to a high community groups. We must be ready as individuals to profile. I hope that the Minister will note that. confront examples of anti-Semitism in particular and GC 75 Anti-Semitism[8 JUNE 2011] Anti-Semitism GC 76 hate crimes in general. I applaud the initiative, I applaud have a range of views. It is also extremely important to the response of the Government and I look forward to keep being clear that Jewish people have a range of hearing an update on the current position when the views on every subject under the sun, not only because noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, speaks. those views are often eloquently written about and enrich our culture, understanding and science but 7.11 pm because politically it is the best detoxification of the Lord Alderdice: My Lords, I congratulate my noble notion that if you do not agree with the current friend Lord Boswell on obtaining this debate and so policies of the Israeli Government, that in some way helping us in this House to keep to the forefront of our justifies an anti-Semitic attitude. Whatever the minds the scourge of anti-Semitism. It is very important Government do, we must continually point out that that we do not let it be pushed to the side when there not agreeing with the current policies of the Israeli are many other pressures on our time and thoughts. Government is not a justification for anti-Semitism Growing up, I was, like many others, very aware of and does not go along in any way with the notion of it the question of anti-Semitism. I learned as a schoolboy being justified. It is a very important distinction that about the Holocaust but also read about the Dreyfus we must keep hammering away at, because in times of case in France and other such events. I came from a crisis these differences tend to be squeezed out. community that always felt an instinctive sympathy That is one of my anxieties at present. In the past with Jewish people. Irish Presbyterians, particularly in few years, we have seen a rightward shift in the politics the north, always felt quite an identification with of Europe. You can see it in almost every election in Jewish people and felt a little bit beleaguered at times, almost every country. When you see that shift, you see as often they do. Then I started my work in psychoanalysis more intolerance, a lack of pluralism and, almost and very many of my friends were of course from inevitably, a resurgence in anti-Semitism. I say resurgence Jewish backgrounds. I became aware of the difficulties because it has always hovered there under the surface. of their experiences—indeed the founder of I even noticed that there were nasty phrases and words psychoanalysis, Freud himself, wrote about his difficult during the financial crisis—“It’s all about money and experiences at the hands of Christians. That was one the banks and you know who is at the back of that”. of the distressing things: the recognition that throughout Sometimes it was even said, “It’s the Jews, you know”. the millennia, not just the centuries, much anti-Semitism You got that horrible, sinking feeling that we were actually came from the Christian community. More experiencing a serious and dreadful rise of anti-Semitism. recently we have tended to associate it with other We must be clear that this is completely unacceptable communities but we must not forget that historically and I welcome the fact that our Government are that is where much of the anti-Semitism has come coming back, as have previous Governments, to remind from. All sorts of rationalisations were given for it but us of that problem. it was just prejudice and bigotry. Apart from pointing out that anti-Semitism is wrong What became clear when I talked to my colleagues in principle and does not recognise the extraordinary was the range of views, not about faith so much—of richness that the Jewish community in this country has course, that was the case as it is in every faith brought to us all, in almost every field of human community—but the attitudes to the state of Israel. endeavour—culture, science, medicine, the law, Parliament, There were some who were not actually very supportive and everywhere—I wish to make one other remark on of it. Freud himself, when he was asked to give support, this subject. My wife and I love to get away for as refused and said it would be a very troublesome business. much time as we can down in the south of Burgundy. He was not supportive of the idea of a state of Israel We love it very much there, and we love the vineyards. at all. The vast majority are supportive of the notion Some of you will know that every so often at the end of a state of Israel, a place where Jewish people can of a row of vines a rose is planted. I was a little feel at home and comfortable, safe in their own culture puzzled about this in my ignorance, in the early days and community. Then there are those within that when I started going down there many years ago. Then community who support the state of Israel but have I discovered what it was. The rose is much more from time to time very serious questions about the susceptible to mildew than the vines, so if the mildew particular policies of particular Governments. starts to appear on the rose the vigneron knows that My old friend Amartya Sen has pointed out that he must get out and spray the vines. The rose is the when the pressure comes on, the important differences canary in the mine, as it were. The Jewish community between people tend to be squeezed out and we see is the rose in the vineyard because you can be sure that them all as a single bloc. It seems to me that under the when you see the rise of anti-Semitism, it is merely the pressure of prejudice and bigotry—or of economic first sign of a dreadful prejudice and intolerance in crisis, which is always a bad time for tolerance—there our community. Never forget that the Jews are the rose has been a tendency to see all Jewish people as falling in our vineyard and that when we see anti-Semitism into one group. That is unfair and inappropriate and arising, it will call for all our minorities and damage justifies, in the minds of some people at least, a our country. critique against Jewish people as a whole, when it is quite clear there is a very healthy diversity within that 7.18 pm community, not only within Israel but within Jewish communities right across the world. Lord Mitchell: My Lords, this is the first time that I It is extremely important that we do not allow have used this technology, so it had better work. people inside or outside the Israeli community to I have never been described as a rose before and I portray it as inappropriate that Jewish people should quite like it, actually. GC 77 Anti-Semitism[LORDS] Anti-Semitism GC 78

[LORD MITCHELL] have a duty of care to their students and they, too, The inclusion of this debate today is very timely, must abide by the laws that this Parliament has passed and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, for introducing to protect everyone from hate, speech and racism. it this evening. I have the privilege of being the chair of I should like to quote from the all-party report: the Coexistence Trust, whose principal remit is to “The Government expects universities to have measures in engage with Jewish and Muslim students on UK place to ensure that their students are not subject to threatening campuses, with a view to lessening the undoubted or abusive behaviour”. tensions that exist between the two student communities. Recently, two Jewish protesters went to SOAS to protest I thank my noble friend Lord Janner, who founded against Israeli Apartheid Week, where they were set the trust and whom I succeeded three years ago. He is upon. One of them was bitten on the cheek and was our co-president; the other co-president is His Royal told that the best thing that the Jews had ever done Highness Prince Hassan of Jordan, whom I must also was to go into the gas chambers. This behaviour is thank. simply unacceptable and the universities need to be Right from the beginning, it has been important to much more robust in preventing its repetition. our trust that we strike a balance between Jewish and Why cannot universities take a look at the calendar Muslim participants. Our employees are both Jewish of religious holidays for some of the minority religions and Muslim and so too are our donors and trustees. In and try to avoid having exams on those days? As has particular, I am pleased to say that the noble Baroness, been said, this very day is the Jewish holiday of Shavuot. Lady Deech, who will speak later, is one of our It is a prime example. Here we are, smack in the trustees. I must also thank the noble Baroness, Lady middle of the school and university exam period, and Warsi, who has been hugely supportive of everything there are students who are precluded from taking their that we have done since our early days. exams or have to take them on different days. There can be little doubt that our university campuses One of the rules that we have at the Coexistence have allowed many forms of extremism to take hold. Trust is to avoid discussing the Middle East. The This week’s announcement by the Home Secretary on reasoning is simple: we cannot change the conflicts, the successor to the Prevent agenda bears witness to but we can change how we interrelate in this country. the seriousness that this Government attach to the But I must address one aspect of this conflict that does problem. The fact that international terrorists with affect us in this country. What gets to many Jews is the murderous intent have been students at our own British way in which Israel is singled out in the media and by universities is chilling. At the Coexistence Trust, we those in power. Clearly, it is both wrong and illegal to seek to bring Jewish and Muslim students together. attack Jews for being Jews, but somehow it seems Social engagement is the best way to dispel preconceived perfectly acceptable to attack the only Jewish state views. In January, we launched our campus ambassadors simply because it is Jewish. I must confess that I am no programme. These are students, one Muslim and the great lover of the current Israeli Government and am other Jewish, from both communities who operate at highly critical of their behaviour. Criticising them is each of 12 pilot campuses. Their job is to engage totally legitimate, but how about some of Israel’s students from both communities and encourage them neighbours? Let us take Syria as an example of how to begin dialogues and work on joint programmes. For double standards apply. Even as we speak, a massacre example, we look at issues that are common to both is in the making. A thousand Syrians have already communities, including mutual threats. We discuss the been murdered by Assad and his henchmen. Very BNP, which sees Jews and Muslims in much the same shortly and very sadly, more will be slaughtered in light as does the English Defence League. Most of all, cold blood. It is simply awful. Where are the we seek to encourage students to realise that we are demonstrations in London? Where are the protests none of us all that different from one another and outside the Syrian embassy? Where are the Socialist have much to learn from each other. Islamophobia Workers Party and all the other protestors who turned and anti-Semitism exist on campus; they emanate out in such force against Israel at the time of Gaza? from certain students and certain faculties which are There is a not a word on Syria, on Libya or Iran, but neither Jewish nor Muslim. But, sadly, they come, when Israel overstretches the mark, everyone goes respectively, from Jews towards Muslims and Muslims nuts. Many Jews think, and with good reason, that towards Jews. anti-Israeli invective is often anti-Semitism masquerading Fortunately, during the three years that I have been under a different name. The fact is that to criticise chair of the Coexistence Trust, I have noticed an Israel is not anti-Semitic, but to single out Israel improvement on campuses. For example, in the immediate simply because it is a Jewish state surely is. Gaza aftermath, we were encouraged not to be present at the universities of Manchester and Nottingham. It 7.25 pm was judged that the situation was too inflammatory and that we would only worsen it. Today, I am pleased Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, perhaps I to say, we are welcomed and work closely with them. may say how much I appreciate this opportunity that Manchester in particular has issued a powerful code the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has given us to discuss of conduct instructing administrators and faculty how this situation. to deal with the conflict. The issue is clear: universities If we each look back at our history, there were are places to learn and experience new thoughts and massive turning points or milestones. I was a boy of ideas. Free speech is an integral part of our national nine at the end of the war in 1945 when I went to the life, and students must expect to hear views and opinions local cinema that was showing a newsreel of Belsen, that may make them uncomfortable. Equally, universities Mauthausen, Treblinka and Auschwitz. I saw the mounds GC 79 Anti-Semitism[8 JUNE 2011] Anti-Semitism GC 80 of skeletons, and those who still existed were shuffling This is an important debate but I must not go over their way to a dream of freedom. I am sure that I was my time. Ours is an awesome responsibility; we must not the only lad who said that this must not happen act and legislate so that no future generation suffers in again; this horror must not be allowed to repeat itself. this way. Our own attitudes and conversation can That is one reason why it is so important that what undermine not only the Jewish people but other vulnerable happened then is not allowed to be forgotten by the people in our communities such as asylum seekers and current generation in our schools and colleges—the refugees. I wish the newspapers would stop demonising horror of 6 million Jews, as well as many of other people who come to this country. Their headlines ethnic origins, executed in Hitler’s Europe. create suspicion and hostility and I hope that, without Fairly recently, I was in the Parliament in Warsaw legislation, we will see an end to this demonising. looking at the plaques for those parliamentarians who So much more could be said. For instance, the had died in 1939 and 1940. You could see, one after curriculums in our schools could cover the history of the other, how they had died in those concentration what has happened so that children can learn. I am camps and death camps. I was glad that those plaques grateful to the Holocaust Educational Trust for giving were there to keep reminding us of the horror of what youngsters and others the opportunity to go to Auschwitz had happened. Those sorts of events make me what I and other places. Much has been and must be done. In am. They guide you in your political direction and doing it, I hope that we will create for Jewish and other your religious conviction—to build a world in which people a generation the like of which they would never every person is honoured and respected, whatever they have known in past centuries. are and whatever their background. We have to work together, which is one reason why I am such a strong 7.32 pm supporter of Europe. The more that nations are bound together and work together, the less likely we are to Baroness Deech: My Lords, I never thought that in experience the hurt and destruction of past generations. my lifetime in this country, to which my family has That is the most valid reason, among others, for my reason to be so grateful, I would have to say that support for the European project. anti-Semitism is on the rise and that there is a need to speak out. I welcome the Government’s actions in Karl Lueger was mayor of Vienna and chair of the response to the inquiry, in particular the excellent Christian Social Union and Anti-Semitic Union of appointment of Sir Andrew Burns as the envoy for the Diet of Lower Austria. As has already been mentioned, post-Holocaust issues. The noble Lord, Lord Boswell, he represented a Christian anti-Semitic element. He has been a brave exponent of the truth and a defender saw anti-Semitism as a way of channelling public of minorities, and I thank him. discontent to his political advantage. Goebbels spoke of the, The Government have not been able to influence the way in which anti-Semitism is taking hold in “parasites of the Jewish race”. higher education and the way in which anti-Zionist On the other side, there was Judah Leib Pinsker, who rhetoric is being used to cloak anti-Semitism. The old in 1882 said he believed that anti-Semitism was hereditary language of prejudice is once again manifested, for and, as a disease transmitted for 2,000 years, was example, in West Dunbartonshire Council banning incurable and an, books from Israel. “inherited aberration of the human mind”. One should be rational about these issues but I We need time to think that through for ourselves. cannot help but be passionate about what I see around We should have learnt the lesson of the Holocaust. me—in particular the way in which the minds of I am sorry that the Chief Rabbi is not with us today. young people are being infected. The National Union He said in 2006 that a “tsunami of anti-Semitism” was of Students recently issued an interim report on hate spreading globally. The Boston Review in 2009 stated crime. It surveyed 9,000 students and reported that that 25 per cent of non-Jewish Americans blamed 31 per cent of Jewish students had experienced a hate Jews for the financial crisis of 2008-09. According to a incident—more than any other religious group. study in 2004, Germany, France, Britain and Russia The unhappy plight of many Jewish students was have the highest rate of anti-Semitic incidents in Europe. first exposed nationally by the report of the All-Party There were victims, of course, even before Hitler. I Parliamentary Group in 2006, with accounts of believe that the survivors of the camps and those who harassment and attacks, often in the name of Israel. came out of the pogroms have a fear, a deep-rooted There was a dramatic rise in national anti-Semitic suspicion, “What might happen because I am Jewish? incidents to nearly 1,000 a year in the period of the What might happen in the future?” Pogroms have Gaza operation. Students paid the price too. Universities taken place over more than one generation and the are in denial about extremism and radicalisation and parents and grandparents who have survived bear the have not addressed the very real problems of anti-Semitism scars and tattoos of that persecution. that exists on campus. Only yesterday the Government I am a Welshman and a Christian, I hope, and when issued their Prevent strategy, highlighting the dangers I see the film footage of those little kids being loaded of extremism in universities. onto the transport wagons and taken away to the There is a considerable overlap there with the topic death camps, I think of my own seven grandchildren of tonight’s debate because where there is Muslim and I say to my family, “This could have been us”. I extremism there is usually extreme dislike of Jews. Our was looking at television coverage of it only a couple priority task should be to save young minds from of days ago, where Jewish toddlers in the camps were being indoctrinated with this ancient hatred, whether lifting their sleeves to show their tattoo numbers. it is by the preaching of inferiority at some faith GC 81 Anti-Semitism[LORDS] Anti-Semitism GC 82

[BARONESS DEECH] that would now deny Jews the ability to complain schools for the young or the doctrine of exclusivity at about racism by denying their perceptions of victimhood universities. I am pleased to be a trustee of the Coexistence if the topic of Israel is in the frame. Trust, headed by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, which Universities should now consider breaking off is doing pioneering work. recognition of UCU. Universities have a statutory duty to promote good race relations on campus and a 7.35 pm public sector duty of equality. The Government should Sitting suspended for a Division of the House. insist that they carry out their legal responsibilities and apply their codes of practice on freedom of speech; 7.47 pm and I call on the Equality and Human Rights Commission to investigate the UCU. Baroness Deech: Since 1986, universities have been required to issue a code of practice on freedom of 7.51 pm speech within the law, enabling control of speakers where a breach of the law is likely. Universities are Lord Beecham: My Lords, I join other noble Lords subject to the law of the land, including the Equality in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, on Act and the Protection from Harassment Act, which securing this debate. The date is perhaps a little should be sufficient to protect students. But most unfortunate, but at least we are in the right Room, universities have failed to operate their codes, and they because the picture on the wall is actually of the event emphasise freedom of speech at the expense of ignoring that the festival celebrates. its limits. Anti-Semitism has variously been described as the There is no legal freedom of speech that involves oldest hatred based on religious differences and as the hatred of minorities, racial and religious abuse. There socialism of fools, with its appeal to the far right and are egregious examples of universities failing to protect to the far left. Now, as has been said, it is often linked Jewish students. Ironically, one of them was the LSE, to anti-Zionism. Martin Luther King said: which was content to make financially rewarding links “When people criticise Zionists they mean Jews. You’re talking with Libya. It hosted a speaker late last year called anti-Semitism”. Abdel Bari Atwan, who was already on record as Actually, that is too broad a generalisation, although having glorified the killing of Israelis and rejoicing certainly the two can overlap and, as we have heard, over the assassination of Jewish students. The university moral relativism is all too frequently found in these could have used the code to ban this, having been arenas. forewarned, but did not, with sad consequences. Given A few months ago, I met a delegation from the the increasing dependence of universities on raising Union of Jewish Students who relayed to me the funds, one hopes not to find links between those concerns that other noble Lords have expressed about universities that have received funds from extremist what they have to face on campus. As a result of that, I regimes and their unwillingness to control such speakers. tabled a Question for Written Answer that, among Students may feel reluctant to report anti-Semitic other things, asked the Government what representations incidents to their lecturers, whose union, the University they had made to university authorities concerning and College Union, has officially decided that anti- invitations to speak, and what steps they would take to Semitism cannot occur in the context of Israel-related protect Jewish and other students from anti-Semitic, activity and which is obsessed with Israel. The European Islamophobic or other racist behaviour on campus. working definition of anti-Semitism states that the The noble Lord, Lord Henley, the Minister replying, singling out of the state of Israel for criticism not did not really take matters very much further than to levelled at other countries, the denial of Jewish self- refer to guidance already issued. I hope that in replying determination and comparison with Nazi policies may the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, may indicate an be anti-Semitic. In its recent motion 70, the UCU intention to take this further, because the response of resolved not to use this understanding of anti-Semitism university vice-chancellors has been, frankly, rather in its own internal complaints procedures, so that it feeble in this respect, as the noble Baroness, Lady can cry Israel in order to stop Jews talking about the Deech, has pointed out. racism that they have experienced. Many Jewish members There are real grounds for concern about what is have resigned from the UCU, but the union has rejected happening in various parts of the country—not least, a motion to investigate that as well. In its actions, the rather surprisingly, in the Greater Manchester area, UCU is denying the Macpherson definition of racism, which appears to have been the scene of about 30 per reached in the wake of the murder of Stephen Lawrence, cent of the recorded serious incidents investigated by as, the Community Security Trust. The trust finds about “any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim”. two-thirds of the complaints to be justified. They are UCU’s actions, including this latest motion, show it to not finding every complaint to be justified, but they be an organisation which is institutionally racist against take a serious look at these matters. It is extraordinary Jews. that Greater Manchester appears to have such a high This is the union that has spent years trying to proportion. Perhaps that is something that the Minister establish an illegal boycott of Israeli academia. This is might ask her department, or a department, to look the union that hosted a South African called Bongani into. Masuku as a speaker, despite the fact that the South At election time, there is sometimes a temptation African Human Rights Commission had found him for people to stray into this rather dangerous territory. guilty of hate speech against Jews. This is the union In 1967, when first a candidate for the ward I represented GC 83 Anti-Semitism[8 JUNE 2011] Anti-Semitism GC 84 for longer than I care to remember, I was subjected to 7.58 pm some anti-Semitic campaigning by the Conservative candidate. In fairness to the Conservative Party, they Baroness Warsi: My Lords, I take this opportunity very publicly and very rapidly repudiated him and his to congratulate my noble friend Lord Boswell of Aynho actions. This May, another Labour candidate in another on securing this extremely important debate. My noble ward, opposed by a Muslim candidate for the Conservative friend was an integral part of the initial all-party Party, was also subjected to an anti-Semitic campaign, parliamentary inquiry in 2005 and, since the publication partly conducted on the internet. It was a little odd of the report, he has worked tirelessly to challenge because the Labour candidate was not actually Jewish, anti-Semitism. Today’s debate is a valuable opportunity but nevertheless anti-Semitism was deployed. Again, to demonstrate our strong and enduring commitment in fairness, the local Conservative Party has taken up to tackle anti-Semitism and all forms of hatred. I am this matter and I have no doubt will deal with it very grateful to Members from all sides of this House for seriously. However, it indicates that the same disease their wise and insightful contributions to this important can still abound, perhaps in different circumstances. debate. Apart from these domestic issues, some wider issues As my noble friend Lord Boswell mentioned, this are of concern. For example, I understand that Press debate is taking place during the Jewish festival of TV, the Iranian Government’s broadcasting outfit in Shavuot, so many Peers including the Chief Rabbi are this country, has been guilty of repeated breaches of not with us today. That said, the ongoing fight against the Ofcom code—not least latterly in giving airspace bigotry and hatred falls on all our shoulders, whatever to publicity for the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.I our background. It is an issue that crosses party lines. am not asking the Minister to give an immediate As my noble friend mentioned, I am pleased that response to this, but I wonder whether the Government Muslim, Christian and Jewish people, those of different might look again at making representations about faiths and none, are here today discussing this important whether Press TV’s licence should be continued in issue whatever our backgrounds. I thank the noble circumstances where it so frequently breaches the code. Lord, Lord Mitchell, whom I have had the pleasure of working with on many occasions for his kind remarks. Another matter arises from the tendency in some countries of Eastern Europe—I think notably of Latvia As many noble Lords have highlighted, anti-Semitism and Lithuania—to present an equivalence between the regretfully remains a factor in the life of the British-Jewish Nazi occupation and the subsequent Soviet occupation, community. The Government continue to share the which entirely leaves out the question of the treatment community’s concern about the rise of anti-Semitism, of those countries’ Jews. I recall visiting the Riga both at home and abroad. In particular, we are concerned museum and seeing a great deal of suffering portrayed about the rise of hate on the internet, the growth of under both regimes, but there was no mention at all of extremism on university campuses, the security concerns what had happened to Latvia’s Jews or, indeed, to of Jewish faith schools, the low levels of hate crimes other Jews who had been deported and killed. brought to justice and the existence of extremist groups such as al-Muhajiroun, the English Defence League However, there are some positives in the situation. and the British National Party. I cannot be clearer; Reference has been made to the Holocaust Education wherever and whatever the roots of anti-Semitism, it Trust and I am grateful to the Government for continuing must be confronted, challenged and condemned. Since the the financial support for its work, which is to bring all-party inquiry in 2005, the Government have made home to young people in particular the terrible period significant progress against the initial 35 recommendations. of the Holocaust. There is also the Anne Frank Trust The police and other bodies have become better at UK, of which I declare an interest as a patron. Drawing dealing with violence, threats and the desecration of from Anne Frank’s experience and her very moving synagogues and cemeteries. However, we recognise diary, the trust goes beyond referring simply to the that progress still needs to be made, especially when Holocaust and works in schools and prisons more anti-Semitism is less explicit and when there is lazy generally to promote tolerance, encourage community acceptance of Jewish stereotypes. cohesion and to help young people in particular to deal with instances of bullying and behaviour It is almost six months since we published our three management. I hope very much that the trust’s work years on progress report and, despite the progress will be supported. I am sure that the Government will outlined in the report, we have not been complacent. continue to support it and perhaps even slightly increase We will continue to take practical, effective action to their support. stamp out anti-Semitism whenever and wherever it occurs. I am extremely pleased that noble Lords have It occurs to me that we have in this country many referred to the specific work of the cross-government councils of Christians and Jews but not many working group, which brings together civil servants organisations embracing the three Abrahamic faiths. from across Whitehall and representatives from three That is not a matter for the Government, but as we leading Jewish organisations: the Board of Deputies will have had, once the noble Baroness speaks, a of British Jews, the Community Security Trust, and representative of each of the three main Abrahamic the Jewish Leadership Council. The working group faiths speaking in this debate. A message to encourage gives members of the Jewish community direct access that kind of interfaith co-operation would be very to central government and is a vehicle to raise concerns— helpful. I am glad that the present Government are and I assure noble Lords that these concerns are heard continuing the work of their predecessors and look and that the concerns of the community are acted forward very much to hearing the Minister’s reply. upon. GC 85 Anti-Semitism[LORDS] Anti-Semitism GC 86

[BARONESS WARSI] different opinions on a whole host of issues, both The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, raised a very domestic and international. Indeed, my noble friend important point about the UCU and the Motion not Lord Alderdice made an important point about a to use the European Union Monitoring Centre’s definition diversity of opinion within and between religious of anti-Semitism. That issue was raised by the Jewish communities. However, while we regularly oppose and community through the working group late last week. contradict each others’ ideas, it can never be right that A teleconference took place to discuss the issue this a person standing for high office, such as a Member of week and an urgent group meeting has been scheduled Parliament, should be campaigned against simply because for the week beginning 20 June. I assure the noble of their race or religion. Baroness that I shall keep her updated on the progress My noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno referred of that particular matter. The group has been cited as to Auschwitz-Birkenau. It is a place that I visited in an example of best practice across Europe and the 2008 with the Lessons from Auschwitz Project. The Americas by the Organisation for Security and systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution Co-operation in Europe. and murder of 6 million Jews and other minorities by The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, among others, the Nazi regime and its collaborators makes the Holocaust raised the issue of extremism on university campuses. a unique and unparalleled horror in Europe’s history. I Noble Lords will be aware that yesterday the Government am proud that this Government have contributed published an updated Prevent strategy, and this issue £2.1 million to the Auschwitz-Birkenau restoration was referred to particularly. Universities and colleges fund. This contribution, alongside our commitment to promote and facilitate the exchange of opinions and continue to fund the Lessons from Auschwitz project ideas, and promote debate as well as enable a learning in 2011, and the £750,000 that we are providing to environment. However, universities and colleges have the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust for the 2011 a legal and moral obligation to staff and students to commemoration, will ensure that the Holocaust has a ensure that the place of work and study is a tolerant, permanent place in our national conscience and that the welcoming and safe environment. Universities and memory of those who perished is honoured and preserved. other higher education institutions are charities and This Government are committed to building on the therefore they must comply with charity law. The foundations laid by the previous Administration. In Charity Act 2006 requires all student unions to register the past 12 months, we have appointed Sir Andrew with the Charity Commission by the end of June 2011. Burns as the UK envoy for post-Holocaust issues. We Legally, all charities must work for the public benefit have agreed to provide up to £2 million to fund security and must act to avoid damage to the charity’s reputation, measures for Jewish faith schools within the state assets and associated individuals. Higher education sector. We have committed £2 million during 2010-11 institutions and student unions must therefore give to Faith in Action, a small grants programme to due consideration to the public benefit and associated support local interfaith activity. In particular, we have risks when they, or one of their affiliated societies, invite supported to the tune of around £275,000 52 projects controversial or extremist speakers to address students. that are bringing together people of the Jewish faith We accept that universities and colleges of further and other faiths. The Government have also supported education will need guidance, information and best Interfaith Week to the tune of £200,000 in 2010, practice to address these issues. Therefore the Government including funding for the Board of Deputies of British will continue to support the sector to improve its Jews, Three Faiths Forum, the Council of Christians capacity. The National Union of Students is already in and Jews, the Joseph Interfaith Foundation and Mitzvah the process of developing guidance to student unions Day UK. The UK also regularly contributes to on free speech and tolerance, which will be published international efforts to tackle anti-Semitism, and we later this year. Moreover, the Equality Challenge Unit play a key role in developments in the Organisation for will publish outcomes from its major religion and Security and Co-operation in Europe and the Inter- belief study later this year. The Jewish community has parliamentary Coalition for Combating Anti-Semitism. been directly involved in the project’s development. All police forces must now record anti-Semitic hate Ofcom and its role in relation to Press TV was crimes, and in November ACPO published the first another issue that was raised. Officials from the cross- official anti-Semitic hate-crime statistics. This action government working group meet Ofcom regularly to has received specific praise at the Organisation for discuss issues of concern, and to date I can inform Security and Co-operation in Europe’s High Level Meeting noble Lords that Ofcom has recorded four breaches on Confronting Anti-Semitism in Public Discourse, against Press TV; the first three relate to breaches of held in Prague in March 2011. The Government have the due impartiality requirements by not including also produced and delivered occupational standards viewpoints arguing the position of the Israeli state. for police officers handling hate crimes, and we have However, at this stage I am not aware of any breaches published a diagnostic toolkit to enable local criminal against Press TV in relation to anti-Semitism. justice agencies to self-audit their performances in the The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, raised the issue of handling of hate crimes, from initial call handling extremism during election campaigns. We have initiated through to prosecution. We have also supported the meetings and correspondence with the Electoral Community Security Trust, with funding from the Victims Commission and the Equality and Human Rights Fund. The grant was awarded to support the CST’s Commission in the hope of getting clarity on this work to improve the reporting of anti-Semitic attacks issue. The cross-government working group that tackles in London and Manchester. The funding also helped anti-Semitism has been tasked with taking this matter to develop a guidance booklet, A Guide to Fighting forward. As politicians, we are renowned for having Hate Crime. GC 87 Anti-Semitism[8 JUNE 2011] Anti-Semitism GC 88

International agencies and monitoring bodies have Once again, I thank all noble Lords who have regularly praised the UK’s approach and are often contributed to this important debate and in particular held up as being at the forefront of state responses to to my noble friend Lord Boswell for his efforts in tackling hate crime. However, as I said earlier, we securing this debate and his commitment over the cannot afford to be complacent, and I can assure the years in the other place and now here to tackling Committee that we are committed to continuing this anti-Semitism. work and to offering whatever support we can in the ongoing fight against anti-Semitism. As I have said before, and will say again, anti-religious bigotry and hatred should not be tolerated whenever and wherever they manifest themselves. Committee adjourned at 8.09 pm.

WS 25 Written Statements[8 JUNE 2011] Written Statements WS 26

of NATS and the wider aviation industry, to establish Written Statements whether or not there is a policy requirement to retain a shareholding in NATS. Wednesday 8 June 2011 NATS provides strategically important services to the UK and as such, I want to ensure that the overall Armed Forces: Low Flying aviation policy objectives of safety, security, economic regulation, civil/military co-operation, environment and Statement supporting the Single European Sky programme are not compromised by any decisions we take over future The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry share ownership. The call for evidence document outlines of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable the controls and protections that exist in NATS’ operating friend the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare environment independent of the Government’s and Veterans (Mr Robathan) has made the following shareholding and seeks evidence from consultees on Written Ministerial Statement. what, if any, protections would be required on top of these to allow the delivery of these objectives. The amount of low flying training carried out in the UK low flying system during the training year The call for evidence will be open from today until 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011 was the minimum 6 July and we aim to publish the results shortly after required for aircrew to reach and maintain their ability the closing date. The evidence collected will support to fly at low level. A total of 49,151 hours of low flying my final decision about whether to sell government training were conducted across all low flying areas. In shares in NATS. comparative terms, there was an decrease of 8,369 hours, or approximately 14.6 per cent on the previous training year due to the withdrawal of Harrier GR7/9 Correction to Lords Written Answer from service, and the additional operational deployment Statement of Tornado GR4s to Italy as part of the NATO force conducting operations in Libya. The amount of operational low flying (between 250 feet and 100 feet) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department by fixed-wing aircraft was 248 hours, accounting for for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): 0.5 per cent of all low flying activity. I regret that the Written Answer given to Lord Ouseley on 5 April 2011 (Official Report, col. WA 349)was I have today placed in the Library of the House a incorrect. In that Answer, I stated that there are four document giving detailed statistics of the low flying legal challenges which have been made in the past year training that has taken place in the UK low flying to the department, three of which claimed discrimination system for the training year 1 April 2010 to 31 March on grounds of race and one on grounds of age. I also 2011. This statistical appendix may be read in conjunction stated that three of these claims are continuing and with the master document “Military Low Flying in one has been withdrawn. the United Kingdom” that is already in the Library of the House. I would like to clarify this position. There are eight legal challenges which have been made in the past year Additional copies are available on request from the to the department, three of which claimed discrimination following address: Air Staff, Complaints and Enquiries on grounds of race and five on the grounds of age. Unit, Ministry of Defence, Level 5 Zone H, Main Two of these claims are continuing, one has been Building, Whitehall, London, SW1A 2HB. withdrawn and five have settled with a payment being made. Aviation: National Air Traffic Services Statement EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Secretary Statement of State for Transport (Philip Hammond) has made the following Ministerial Statement. Today I am publishing a call for evidence to support The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department my decision-making in whether to sell all, part or none for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): of the Government’s 49 per cent shareholding in NATS My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary (formerly National Air Traffic Services). of State (Andrew Stunell) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. It was announced in the Budget (March 2011) that the Government “intend to realise value from its The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer shareholding in NATS, subject to considering the Affairs Council met on 19 May 2011 in Brussels. The views of key interested parties”. This commitment United Kingdom was represented by the UK Deputy reflects the Government’s policy that assets held in the Permanent Representative to the EU, Andy Lebrecht. public sector where there is no policy requirement to This was a single issue council on the subject of do so tie up state resources that could deliver better Roma integration. On 5 April, the European Commission value for money for the public if used elsewhere. We published a communication on an EU Framework for are seeking evidence through this process from key National Roma Integration Strategies up to 2020. interested parties including the regulator, employees Based on this, the presidency invited the council to WS 27 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 28 hold an exchange of views and adopt a set of council noted, amongst other things, that some member states conclusions and an opinion from the Social Protection had developed national Roma strategies while others Committee. were dealing with the issue through general inclusion The presidency stressed the importance of member policies. states taking effective action to tackle Roma exclusion, Following the debate, the council adopted conclusions whilst emphasising the added value of EU-level action. on an EU Framework for National Roma Integration The presidency noted that the situation of the Roma Strategies. It also endorsed the Opinion of the Social differed considerably between member states and so Protection Committee on an EU Framework for National the conclusions provided latitude to member states to Roma Integration Strategies. The presidency will now tailor their approaches to national needs by committing seek endorsement of a Roma presidency progress report them to preparing either national strategies or sets of at the June European Council. policy measures. The chair of the Social Protection Committee underlined the Social Protection Committee’s willingness to continue work on this issue. The European Commission emphasised the need to EU: Energy Council step up efforts against discrimination. They said that strong commitment was needed by all member states, Statement but acknowledged that member states’ efforts to promote Roma inclusion should be proportionate to the size and situation of the Roma population on their territory. The Commission also emphasised the link with the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department EU2020 Strategy and underlined the importance of of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): My member states’ strategies or policy approaches focusing honourable friend the Minister of State for Energy on the four priority areas identified in the Commission’s (Charles Hendry) has made the following Written Ministerial communication (health, housing, education and Statement. employment). They called on member states to submit In advance of the forthcoming Energy Council in their strategies or policy approaches by the end of Luxembourg on 10 June, I am writing to outline the 2011. The Commission would then report annually to agenda items to be discussed. the European Parliament and council on progress The first item on the agenda will be a report on the made. state of play of the draft regulation on energy market The UK outlined the fact that in this country we integrity and transparency, on which the presidency is have a strong and well-established legal framework to aiming to reach a first-reading agreement between the combat discrimination and hate crime and that this European Parliament and the council by the end of protects all individuals, including Roma, Gypsies and June. The UK supports the Commission’s draft regulation, Travellers, from racial and other forms of discrimination, which will increase market liquidity and confidence and racially motivated crime. We also acknowledged and enhance competition across the EU. We have that the UK’s Gypsies and Travellers none the less made good progress in the negotiations and have experience inequalities. We summarised the policy found reasonable solutions to those areas which gave approaches being undertaken in the different parts of us concern. the UK to deal with this, including (in England) the The council will then adopt conclusions on a Ministerial Working Group on Reducing Gypsy and Commission communication on an energy efficiency Traveller Inequalities, chaired by the Secretary of State action plan. We broadly welcome the conclusions and for Communities and Local Government. expect them to be adopted without discussion. We also acknowledged the importance of co-ordination The presidency will report on the debate that took between member states to tackle organised crime, place on the energy road map for 2050 at the Informal particularly the issue of human trafficking, which can Energy Council in May in advance of the communication affect Roma, especially Roma children. And we noted that the Commission is planning to issue in the autumn. the opportunity that EU funds provide to member There will also be a report on the state of play of the states to add value to their policies to improve the risk and safety assessment (stress tests) of nuclear situation of Roma and other disadvantaged people. power plants called for at the European council on 24 and 25 March, following events in Fukushima. The Other member states welcomed the conclusions UK is content with the scope of the test. and highlighted the need for concerted action to improve the situation of the Roma. Some said they already had The Commission will then update the council on a national or regional Roma strategies or programmes; number of EU external energy relations issues. The others said they tackled Roma issues through Swedish delegation will present information to the mainstreaming into wider social inclusion programmes; council on sustainability criteria for biomass and while others had specific initiatives designed to address the Polish delegation will outline priorities for their particular issues. Though most member states focused forthcoming presidency. exclusively on socioeconomic issues, some also made Over lunch Ministers will discuss a Commission specific reference to the problem of human trafficking. report on the investments that are likely to be needed Several member states, including the UK, highlighted for energy infrastructure in Europe. The UK agrees the fact that different member states faced different that measures must be taken to remove obstacles to situations both in terms of the size and situation of infrastructure investment but that planning regimes their Roma populations. Closing the debate, the presidency are issues for member states to decide. WS 29 Written Statements[8 JUNE 2011] Written Statements WS 30

EU: Justice and Home Affairs Council Republic of Macedonia and since 15 December 2010 Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina enjoy visa-free travel Statement to the EU member states if they hold a biometric passport. The follow-up mechanism set up at the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord beginning of 2011 covers border management, document McNally): The Justice and Home Affairs Council is security, combating organised crime, and fundamental due to be held on 9 and 10 June in Luxembourg. My rights, as well as the effective implementation of right honourable friend the Secretary of State for readmission agreements. The mechanism allows the Home Affairs (Theresa May) and my right honourable Commission to engage with the countries concerned, friend the Secretary of State for Justice (Kenneth under the framework of the stabilisation and association Clarke) and the Scottish Cabinet Secretary of Justice, process, in a dialogue for the assessment of the consistent Kenny MacAskill intend to attend on behalf of the implementation of all reforms launched under the visa United Kingdom. As the provisional agenda stands, liberalisation road map. The UK does not participate the following items will be discussed: in these elements of Schengen or the common EU visa policy. The council will begin in mixed committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Following mixed committee the main council will Schengen states). The Commission will give an update begin with the Commission expected to present amended on the rollout of the central VIS (visa information proposals to recast the Asylum Reception Conditions system). The UK is not bound by the VIS regulation Directive and Asylum Procedures Directive. The UK because it does not participate in the common visa takes part in the existing directives but did not opt in element of the Schengen acquis. to the original proposals to replace them that were Next there will be a presentation by the Commission brought forward in 2008 and 2009. Those proposals on amendments to Regulation (EC) No 539/2001, were strongly criticised by member states because of which lists third country nationals who must possess the significant additional regulation to which they visas to cross the external borders of the Schengen would subject their asylum systems, and because they area and those exempt from this requirement. The would grant asylum seekers additional unnecessary amendments include provisions for a safeguard clause entitlements that would attract false claims for asylum. allowing the temporary suspension of existing visa The Commission is therefore amending them in order waivers. The UK is not bound by this regulation as we to make agreement more likely. do not participate in the migration aspects of the Schengen acquis. Next the presidency will update the council on progress of negotiations on three legal migration directives The council will seek a general approach on elements which the UK has not opted into. The first measure of the amending Frontex regulation. This amending would establish common rules for the admission of regulation builds on an evaluation of the first five third country nationals onto the territory of the EU years of Frontex’ performance and is intended to where they are seeking admission on the basis of an extend the remit of Frontex in areas that will allow it intra-company transfer and make provision for intra-EU to be more operationally effective in future. The presidency movement of such personnel. The second measure remains optimistic that they will reach agreement of would establish common rules for the admission of this co-decision measure before the end of June. The third country nationals onto the territory of the EU UK is excluded from the regulation. where they are seeking admission for the purpose of There will be an update on the Commission-led seasonal work. The third measure would establish a project to implement the central element of the second- single procedure for the issuance of a residence permit generation Schengen Information System (SIS II); the to, and a common set of rights for, third country UK will reiterate support for the continuation of the nationals admitted onto the territory of the EU for current SIS II project. the purpose of work. The council will be asked to adopt draft council conclusions on the readiness of Bulgaria and Romania Council conclusions have been proposed on borders, to join Schengen. The conclusions confirm that evaluation migration and asylum; these will be discussed in the visits have been completed and that both countries context of recent Commission communications on have met or exceeded the agreed Schengen criteria migration and on a dialogue for migration, mobility following a series of peer evaluations. The UK has and security with the southern Mediterranean, as well actively participated in discussions within the Schengen as the second annual report on the implementation of Evaluation Committee and helped Bulgaria and Romania the migration pact. The proposed council conclusions to meet the required standards. Bulgaria and Romania are intended to prepare for the European Council on will join once a council decision has been passed; this 24 June, which will focus on migration with particular is not foreseen until at least the autumn. reference to the developing situation in the Middle East and North Africa. The presidency will seek a general approach on the regulation creating an IT agency to manage existing There will also be a discussion on council conclusions IT systems. The UK supports conclusion of the regulation regarding the EU’s strategy on readmission. These having secured amendments to ensure our participation. conclusions follow the recent evaluation by the The council will discuss EU-western Balkans JHA Commission on the operation and effectiveness of relations in relation to the post visa liberalisation readmission agreements currently in force. The UK monitoring mechanism. Since 19 December 2009, the welcomes the Commission evaluation and supports a citizens of Serbia, Montenegro and the former Yugoslav number of recommendations made in it. WS 31 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 32

The EU Counter Terrorism Co-ordinator (EU CTC) There will be a progress report on e-justice provided will present his six-monthly discussion paper on EU by the presidency. The aim of e-justice is to promote CT strategy. The discussion paper aims to provide a the use of IT in the justice area—in particular through stock-take of the current CT threat and proposes the provision of information. specific policy initiatives under the following headings: prevent, transport security, research and CBRN. The The presidency will give a state of play report on UK will promote the importance of coordinating EU accession to the European Convention on Human internal and external CT activity. The Commission Rights. The accession by the EU will mean that the will also present its air cargo security progress report EU and its institutions are directly bound by the on the implementation of the EU Action Plan of 30 convention. The negotiating mandate was agreed at November 2011. There will be a vote on implementing the JHA Council on 4 June 2010. the new EU Cargo Security regime at the Transport Regulatory Committee on the 8 June. The UK supports The Commission will make a presentation about the proposals in the EU Action Plan. the victims package which they published on 18 May. Next the council will be asked to adopt draft council The package included two draft legislative instruments: conclusions on establishing priorities in the fight against a draft directive to replace the 2001 Council Framework organised crime over the next two years. The UK Decision on the standing of victims in criminal supports the priorities identified in the conclusions proceedings (2001/220/JHA) and a proposal for a which have been drawn from Europol’s organised crime regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures threat assessment. There will also be a presentation of in civil matters. The Commission also published a complementary approaches and actions to prevent communication setting out further work that it intends and combat organised crime: A collection of good to undertake in this area. practice examples from EU member states. This practical approach to tackling organised crime is supported by It is anticipated that the Commission will also the UK. present an EU anti-corruption package. One of the The justice day will commence with the council expected documents is likely to include consideration seeking a general approach on the directive on combating of the modalities of EU accession to the Council of attacks against information systems. The directive seeks Europe Group of States against Corruption (GRECO). to repeal and replace the current framework decision on combating attacks on information systems and The presidency will also agree council conclusions bring member states’ legislation up to date with technical on the memory of the crimes committed by the totalitarian developments and threats in this area. The UK has regimes in Europe. The draft conclusions reaffirm the opted in to the directive which remains under importance of raising awareness of the crimes committed parliamentary scrutiny in the House of Commons. by the totalitarian regimes in Europe and promoting a Next the council will discuss the European Investigation shared memory of them; and encourage member states Order (EIO). The EIO is draft directive aimed at and the Commission to promote their memory in streamlining the process of mutual legal assistance various ways. between participating EU countries. The UK has opted in. The presidency is seeking to agree a partial general The council is also expected to adopt council approach to Articles 1 to 18. Whilst we believe that conclusions on the ninth Eurojust annual report (calendar there have been significant improvements to the original year 2010). draft of the EIO we continue to have a concern in particular about the handling of coercive measures in The Commission will present its approach to future Article 10. The EIO also remains subject to parliamentary work towards protecting EU public money against all scrutiny. forms of criminal conduct, including fraud. Its The presidency will also seek political compromise communication focuses on an integrated policy to on the main issues on the European certificate of protect EU financial interest by criminal law and by succession. This measure aims to establish common administrative investigations, including effective and rules and procedures relating to cross-border inheritance equivalent legal action in member states and strengthening matters. The UK did not opt in to the measure, but is the institutional framework at European level. The playing an active part in negotiations. Government are determined to see action taken to tackle fraud more effectively in relation to EU funds. The presidency had planned to seek agreement on a For example, they broadly support the aim of regulation on the possibility of attributing legal value strengthening OLAF’s operational efficiency and to the electronic version of the Official Journal. However improving its governance. However, this communication a number of member states, including the UK, have covers a wide array of policy proposals, which the placed scrutiny reservations on the text and it is clear Government will need to scrutinise closely in forthcoming that political agreement will not be possible at this working level discussions. council. Therefore we expect this item to be removed from the agenda. There will be an information point on the Missing The council will then agree a resolution on the road Children Europe Conference 25 and 26 May 2011 and map for strengthening the rights of victims. The road under AOB there will be a presentation on the Conference map is a statement of political intent, and sets out the of Ministers of the western Balkans countries requested basis for future legislative measures. The UK hopes to by Slovenia and a presentation of the project Police be able to agree to this resolution. Equal Performance requested by Austria. WS 33 Written Statements[8 JUNE 2011] Written Statements WS 34

Local Enterprise Partnerships review the labour market position of young people, including those in apprenticeships and internships; Statement consider whether NMW regulations can be made even simpler and easier to administer. This might The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department include the removal, simplification or consolidation for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): of any elements of the NMW; My right honourable friend the Minister for Decentralisation in addition, as part of the simplification agenda, I (Greg Clark) has made the following Written Ministerial have requested that the LPC considers the implications Statement. of the proposed abolition of the Agricultural Wages I, together with the Minister of State for Business Board for England and Wales, pending the outcomes and Enterprise (Mark Prisk), would like to inform the of legislative process and consultation; and House that today we have written to the proposed consider the best way to give business greater clarity Humber local enterprise partnership inviting it to put on future levels of the NMW, including the option in place governance arrangements. of two-year recommendations, and implement the The Government have moved quickly to recognise chosen solution as part of the 2012 report. Also, the Humber local enterprise partnership proposal, consider whether any of the other recommendations submitted last week, so that they can drive forward could be introduced more promptly. their economic ambitions. The Humber local enterprise Timing partnership will focus on strategic opportunities for growth around renewable energy, ports and logistics, The Low Pay Commission has been asked to report chemicals, international trade, strategic transport, to the Prime Minister and me by the end of February infrastructure and innovation and aims to create upwards 2012. of 20,000 jobs. Copies of the remit have been placed in the Libraries Local enterprise partnerships are a real power shift of both Houses. away from central government and quangos and towards local communities and the local businesses who really understand the opportunities for and barriers to growth in their areas. Shipping: Ship-to-ship Transfers This announcement brings the total number of Statement partnerships so far invited to put their governance arrangements in place to 35. Taken together these represent 1.9 million or 95 per cent of all businesses Earl Attlee: My honourable friend the Parliamentary (active enterprises) in England, 22 million employees Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning) (employee jobs figures) or 96 per cent of all employees has made the following Ministerial Statement. in England and; a population of 49 million or 96 per I wish to inform the House of a further development cent of England’s population. We will continue to concerning the Government’s legislation to regulate work with other areas with a view to establishing ship-to-ship transfers of oil carried as cargo. further local enterprise partnerships across England. As I explained in my Written Ministerial Statement on 30 March, amending regulations have been drafted, and work is in train to ensure that these amending National Minimum Wage regulations take account of representations made— Statement including representations arising from an extension, over the period 9 February to 10 March 2011, of the review of the Merchant Shipping (Ship-to-Ship Transfers) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Regulations 2010 for the benefit of Suffolk residents for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): and bodies. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable) has today The conclusion which I drew from the main review made the following Statement. which was carried out in July-September 2010 was that the provisions prohibiting all ship-to-ship transfers The Government have today written to the Low outside harbour authority areas will be replaced by Pay Commission (LPC) setting out the remit for its provisions restricting ship-to-ship transfers outside 2012 report. harbour authority areas to a single designated area The Government support the national minimum within the UK Territorial Sea and establishing a system wage (NMW) and have asked the Low Pay Commission of permits issued by the MCA, giving effect at the to evaluate and make recommendations in the areas same time to the new Chapter 8 of Annexe I to the set out below, taking account of the economic and MARPOL Convention. labour market context, including pensions reform. Having taken account of all the representations Specifically, I have asked the Low Pay Commission made, both in the main review and in the extension of to: the review in February and March, I have again come monitor, evaluate and review the levels of each of to the conclusion that this is the appropriate course of the different minimum wage rates, with particular action and that the designated area for ship-to-ship reference to previously identified groups and transfers (other than in harbour authority waters) sectors, and make recommendations for October shall be the waters off the Suffolk coast where ship-to-ship 2012; transfers are already carried out. WS 35 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 36

The recognition of these waters off the Suffolk and the meetings held with interested parties during coast as a suitable area for carrying out ship-to-ship the period of the extension of the review in February transfers is based on the Maritime and Coastguard and March, in the Libraries of both Houses and on Agency’s and the industry’s actual experience of the the department’s website. successful use of these waters for ship-to-ship transfer As I also indicated in my Written Ministerial Statement operations over a number of years without pollution on 30 March, the amended Merchant Shipping (Ship- of the seas and coasts. The MCA will continue to to-Ship Transfers) Regulations 2010 are intended to monitor such operations closely to ensure they are come into force on 1 October 2011. In common with carried out to the highest possible safety standards. other new domestic secondary legislation, these regulations I shall place an addition to the analytical table will contain provisions setting an automatic expiry previously provided in December 2010, which summarises date and requiring them to be reviewed in a specified the points of substance made in the written representations number of years. WA 129 Written Answers[8 JUNE 2011] Written Answers WA 130

does not collect data on the economic benefits deriving Written Answers from the activities at HMNB Clyde, and information could only be gathered at disproportionate cost. Wednesday 8 June 2011 Asked by Lord Moonie Armed Forces: Commemoration To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the value to the Scottish economy of Royal Air Force Question bases in Scotland. [HL9542] Asked by Lord Laird Lord Astor of Hever: The three principal Royal Air To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Force bases in Scotland are RAF Kinloss, RAF will create a memorial for those military and police Lossiemouth, and RAF Leuchars. Together, they employ personnel killed in the Republic of Ireland between approximately 4,150 service personnel and 900 civilian 1916 and 1923; whether they will ascertain their personnel. Many more people and companies support names and dates of death and publish a memorial the activities at the bases and thereby generate economic list for relatives to consult; and whether they have benefits to the Scottish economy. The department discussed with the Government of the Republic of does not collect data on the economic benefits deriving Ireland whether any of them are commemorated in from the activities of the bases, and such information the Irish National War Memorial Gardens at could only be gathered at disproportionate cost. Islandbridge in Dublin. [HL9535] As part of the ongoing estate and basing review, however, the Ministry of Defence has received and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry taken note of the submissions from the Moray Task of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): I refer the noble Force on the local impacts of RAF Lossiemouth and Lord to the response I gave on 14 December (Official RAF Kinloss, and from the Leuchars community Report, col. WA 154). In terms of the commemoration campaign on the impacts in Fife of RAF Leuchars. of service personnel, other than the official commemoration to mark an individual’s final resting place, it has been a long-standing policy of successive Asylum Seekers UK Governments that the cost of erecting memorials and associated projects is not usually met from public Question funds but from private donations or public subscription. Asked by Lord Hylton The Police Roll of Honour Trust charity maintains the National Roll of Honour of fallen police officers To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they which records the names and deaths of police personnel are making representations to the Government of killed in what is now the Republic of Ireland between the United States concerning the alleged refusal of 1916 and 1923. Full details of the police officers’ due process, over claims of abduction, false deaths are contained on the roll, which is published on imprisonment and torture in the cases of Binyam the trust website—www.policememorial.org.uk—and Mohamed, Maher Arar and Khaled el-Masri. is free for relatives to consult. The trust is currently [HL9554] working with other police organisations to create a new police officers’ memorial to be located in the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth National Memorial Arboretum, on which the names Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government of all police officers killed on duty will be carved in made representations to the United States of America stone. No discussions regarding the Irish National Government seeking the release to the UK from War Memorial Gardens have taken place with the Guantanamo Bay of British nationals, and, exceptionally, Government of the Republic of Ireland. former legal UK residents, including Binyam Mohamed. However, it would not be appropriate to make representations regarding the judicial decisions made Armed Forces: Scotland in the cases named in this question. Questions Asked by Lord Moonie Bahrain To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Question value to the Scottish economy of the Faslane naval Asked by Baroness Tonge base and ancillary facilities. [HL9541] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry they have made of the resignation of 18 members of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): There are approximately of the Bahraini parliament, and its impact on the 6,300 personnel employed at Her Majesty’s Naval legitimacy of that parliament. [HL9552] Base (HMNB) Clyde. This includes service personnel, Ministry of Defence civilian personnel and contractors. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Many more people and companies provide support to Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are concerned the activities at the base and thereby generate economic by the resignation of 18 members of the Bahraini benefits to the Scottish economy.However, the department parliament. We urge the Bahraini Government to create WA 131 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 132 the environment in which a dialogue can take place Lord Sassoon: The banks, in which the Government and we call on all sides, including the political Opposition, are a shareholder, are managed on an arm’s-length to engage. It is only through collaboration, dialogue and commercial basis by UK Financial Investments and a continuation of the political reform process that (UKFI). UKFI votes all its voting shares wherever it long-term stability can be achieved in Bahrain. is eligible to do so. UKFI has disclosed on its website that it voted in favour of all resolutions at the annual general meeting Bank of England of Lloyds Banking Group on 18 May 2011, including the resolution on the director’s remuneration report Question for the year ended 31 December 2010. Asked by Lord Myners Banking: European Central Bank To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will undertake a review of the effectiveness of the Question governance of the Bank of England and the Asked by Lord Myners performance of the court; and, if so, whether this To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they process should be conducted by an independent are a shareholder in the European Central Bank. [HL9600] party. [HL9521]

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): The Treasury Select Committee is currently Sassoon): The capital of the European Central Bank carrying out an inquiry into the accountability of the (ECB) comes from the national central banks (NCBs) Bank of England, including the role of its court. The of all EU member states, including from the Bank of Government await the findings of the committee’s England. work. Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland Question Banking: Bonuses Asked by Lord Myners Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the Asked by Lord Myners terms of reference, projected budget and source of funding for the review by Sir David Walker and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether UK Mr Bill Knight into the review on the collapse Financial Investments have made representations of Royal Bank of Scotland carried out by to Lloyds Banking Group and Royal Bank of Scotland PricewaterhouseCoopers and of the review of that to claw back past bonuses and benefits paid to review by the Financial Services Authority; and executive directors in view of the fact that profits whether Sir David Walker and Mr Bill Knight will were substantially overstated as a result of the have access to the report and working papers of mis-selling of payment protection insurance. PricewaterhouseCoopers. [HL9604] [HL9601] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): On 25 May, the chairman of the Treasury The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Select Committee (TSC) announced the terms of reference Sassoon): The banks, in which the Government are a for the independent review of the report by the Financial shareholder, are managed on an arm’s-length and Services Authority (FSA) into the failure of the Royal commercial basis by UK Financial Investments (UKFI). Bank of Scotland. UKFI engages with the banks, as a shareholder, on The FSA will take all reasonable steps to ensure their approach to remuneration. Both the Lloyds Banking that the review team has access to such documents and Group and the Royal Bank of Scotland have awarded persons as it considers necessary to undertake this deferred share-based bonuses to their executive directors review. The FSA will provide the reviewers with reasonable and used stringent deferral and clawback conditions resources and bear the cost of employing such advisers throughout their banks. as the reviewers may require and any other incidental Should the remuneration committee of either bank expenses. Remuneration of the review team is a matter conclude there may be reason to claw back awards, for the TSC. UKFI will work with the company on the outcome of that process as an active and engaged shareholder to BBC Trust: Welsh Member ensure that remuneration rewards long-term sustainable performance and does not incentivise excessive risk-taking. Question Asked by Lord Roberts of Conwy Asked by Lord Myners To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether UK Secretary of State for Wales is required by statute Financial Investments voted its shares in Lloyds to obtain the agreement of the Welsh Assembly Banking Group to approve the report endorsing Government before making a recommendation for the payments of bonuses to Mr Eric Daniels. the appointment to the BBC Trust of the ordinary [HL9602] member who will hold the Welsh post, similar to WA 133 Written Answers[8 JUNE 2011] Written Answers WA 134

the arrangements included in the Scotland Bill; Asked by Lord Hylton and, if not, whether they have plans to propose an analogous legislative change. [HL8859] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what travel advice they issue to tourists intending to visit (a) Tunisia, and (b) Egypt. [HL9557] The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness): The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport recommends appointments The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth to the BBC Trust. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s (FCO) travel advice for Tunisia, There is no statutory requirement to obtain the which can be read in full at http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/ agreement of the Welsh Government before making a travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/ recommendation for the appointment to the BBC middle-east-north-africa/Tunisia, advises against all Trust of the ordinary member who will hold the post but essential travel to areas of Tunisia within 40 kilometres of trust member for Wales. of the border with Libya; there are no travel restrictions It is my understanding, however, that on previous in the travel advice for other areas of Tunisia, including occasions informal consultation has taken place with the main tourist resorts. the Welsh Government as part of the appointment The FCO’s travel advice for Egypt, which can be process. read in full at http://www.fco.gov/uk/en/travel-and- There are no current plans to propose a legislative living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/middle-east- change. north-africa/Egypt, contains no travel restrictions. All our travel advice is based on objective assessments of the risks to British nationals, whose safety is our Donkeys main concern. Question We review travel advice following any incident that might affect Britons travelling or living in the country Asked by Lord Moonie affected; in a crisis it can be updated several times a To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether donkeys day. We also routinely review all the travel advice on a used by the British Army for burden-carrying are monthly basis. It is revised and reissued at least every subject to United Kingdom animal welfare regulations. three months. [HL9599] EU: Membership The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The Army does not Question own any donkeys. It does, however keep one mule and Asked by Lord Trefgarne two pack ponies at the Defence Animal Centre in Melton Mowbray which are used for a pack animal To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether course to ensure that some personnel know how to membership of the European Union is conditional pack an animal in the event that there is ever a upon adherence to all articles of the European requirement to do so. Convention on Human Rights. [HL9537] The department takes very seriously its duty of care towards the animals which serve alongside its service The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth personnel. All animals owned and used by the Ministry Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): There is no legal of Defence and the Armed Forces are subject to requirement in the EU treaties for EU member states United Kingdom animal welfare regulations. to be parties to the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), and therefore no legal requirement in the EU treaties for them to adhere to all the articles of Egypt and Tunisia the ECHR, to the extent that those articles do not also Questions separately form general principles of EU law. Indeed, EU member states have at times derogated from some Asked by Lord Hylton of the articles of the ECHR and have not been subject to infraction proceedings under EU law for doing so. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what amounts Similarly, it is a matter for each of the 47 contracting of government debt have been written off or parties to the ECHR to decide for itself whether to rescheduled for each of (a) Tunisia, and (b) Egypt, ratify the optional protocols to the ECHR, though all since January 2011 both by them and multilaterally; those contracting parties that are also EU member and in both cases, what new grants or loans have states have ratified Protocols 1 and 6. been made and accepted in the same period either by them or multilaterally. [HL9555] However, the EU treaties are clear that any state wishing to become a member of the EU must be committed to promoting the values of respect for The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule Sassoon): The UK has not provided debt relief to of law and respect for human rights, including the Tunisia or Egypt since January 2011 or participated in rights of persons belonging to minorities (Article 2 any new grants or loans to them since January 2011. TEU). WA 135 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 136

For current EU member states, Article 6(3) of the On 20 May, the IMF executive board set out a Treaty on European Union provides that fundamental selection process to appoint the fund’s next managing rights, as guaranteed by the ECHR and as they result director: http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2011/ from the constitutional traditions common to the pr11191.htm. member states, constitute general principles of EU The international community needs a strong IMF law. In addition, the Charter of Fundamental Rights as an anchor of global economic stability and prosperity. has the same legal value as the EU treaties and brings That is why the UK believes it is important to support together a number of existing rights and principles, the strongest candidate for the next managing director, including those enunciated in the ECHR. In practice, irrespective of nationality. On the basis of merit, the therefore, membership of the EU (for applicants and UK believes that Christine Lagarde is the outstanding current member states alike) requires adherence to the candidate. She has shown real international leadership ECHR, when acting within the scope of EU law. as chair of the G20 Finance Ministers this year and Furthermore, where the European Council determines has been a strong advocate for countries tackling high the existence of a serious and persistent breach by a budget deficits and living within their means. member state of the values in Article 2 TEU, the procedures in Article 7 TEU may apply for a decision on suspension of rights deriving from the application Gaza of the treaties to that member state. The values referred to in Article 2 TEU include respect for human rights. Question Asked by Baroness Tonge European Commission: Expenditure To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Question they have made of the delivery of fuel to Gaza for the commercial market; and what discussions they Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon have had with the Government of Israel regarding this. [HL9551] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the plans by the European Commission to spend £225 million in 2012 on communication; The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth and whether the expenditure has been discussed Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are clear that and approved by the European Council. [HL9563] the situation in Gaza is both a tragedy and unsustainable. Working closely with the EU and quartet, we will The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth continue to call on Israel to ease restrictions on access Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Funding levels for and enable a return to economic normality. the EU to communicate its work publicly, as for all At present, only cooking gas is imported through other EU activities, will be decided within the negotiations the Kerem Shalom crossing which is supplied for the on the EU 2012 Budget. commercial sector; all other forms of fuel are imported Within these negotiations, the Government aim to through the tunnels. We are clear that more needs to achieve a 2012 EU budget far below what the Commission be done, including on easing restrictions on exports, has proposed, including by cutting wasteful, low added- construction material imports and the movement of value EU expenditure and tackling chronic overbudgeting. people. The European Council will come to a first reading We were encouraged by the Israeli Government’s position on the 2012 budget in July 2011. decision to facilitate exports out of Gaza, without which there is little hope of any semblance of normality returning to the lives of Gazans. The Foreign and G20 Commonwealth Office and the Department for Question International Development have had talks with Israel about the type and level of exports they hope to Asked by Lord Myners achieve in 2011. It is important that this now translates into real changes on the ground. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they support the conclusion of the Pittsburgh G20 meeting that the head of the International Monetary Fund “should be appointed by an open, transparent and Government: Expenditure merit-based process”; how this will be evidenced in Question the current appointment process; and whether any United Kingdom candidates qualify for support Asked by Lord Beecham under this process and criteria. [HL9524] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Taylor of Holbeach on The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord 11 May (WA 210), why, in the light of their emphasis Sassoon): The UK continues to support the G20 on the role of the voluntary and community sector, commitment to open, transparent and merit-based inter alia in the context of the Big Society, they have selection of the heads and senior leadership of “no plans to commission further reports” on central international financial institutions, including the government funding of the sector beyond the year International Monetary Fund (IMF). 2007-08. [HL9425] WA 137 Written Answers[8 JUNE 2011] Written Answers WA 138

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The Government are The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth committed to increasing transparency in all areas of Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The sentence of public spending and as such have considered the most blinding is barbaric and breaches international human efficient way to report on central government spending rights norms. We have made this clear publicly, and to the voluntary and community sector. have called on the Iranian authorities to commute the Going forward, this information will be collated sentence and to cease the practice of corporal and and reported through departmental business plans capital punishment. across central government departments. Initial baseline levels of spend to the sector in 2009-10 are reported in the updated business plans, published in May 2011.

HMS “Ark Royal” NHS: Refurbishment Question Question Asked by Lord Empey Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government when a decision To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many will be made about the future of HMS Ark Royal. hospitals were refurbished or had major building [HL9530] works in each of the London boroughs and the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry City of London in each year since 1997. [HL9616] of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): In accordance with the Ministry of Defence’s disposal policy a competition is currently being held to sell HMS “Ark Royal” for use by a private commercial enterprise or for recycling. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Bids will be received in the coming weeks and following of Health (Earl Howe): The department does not hold tender evaluations, it is hoped to select a preferred this information in the format requested. bidder by the autumn and award a contract by the end However, a list, provided by the London Strategic of the year. Health Authority, of London hospitals, which would fit either one or both of these criteria, can be found in the following table. The noble Lord may wish to Identity Assurance contact the chair of NHS London, who will be happy Question to respond to further questions in relation to hospital Asked by Lord Laird refurbishment and major building works in London.

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the London Organisation Foundation estimated capital and annual running costs for the Sector Trust Name Type Status Site Name identity assurance system being introduced to identify INEL Barts and Acute - No The Royal users of government websites; what are its purposes; The Teaching London whether it will make use of national insurance London Hospital, numbers; and how it would address benefit and tax NHS Trust Whitechapel fraud. [HL9532] INEL Barts and Acute - No St The Teaching Bartholomew’s Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The purpose of identity London Hospital (ID) assurance is to provide people with a secure NHS Trust INEL Newham Acute - No Newham log-in to access digital public services. Details of the University Medium General design have not been decided, including how the national Hospital Hospital insurance number might or might not be used. The NHS Trust programme is working across departments to ensure INEL Homerton Acute - Yes Homerton that the design contributes to reducing online fraud University Medium University and costs overall. Hospital Hospital NHS NHS Trust An indication of the capital and annual running Foundation costs will not be clear until the initial design is agreed Trust in October 2011. However, overall the programme will INEL Tower Primary No Mile End reduce costs for government by helping to put more Hamlets Care Trust Hospital services online. PCT INEL Barts and Acute - No The London The Teaching Chest Hospital Iran London NHS Trust Question INEL East Mental Yes Newham Centre Asked by Baroness Tonge London Health and For Mental NHS Learning Health To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Foundation Disability they have made of the judgment in Iran to blind Trust Majid Movahedi; and what representations have NC Royal Free Acute - No Royal Free they made to the Government of Iran on the matter. Hampstead Teaching Hospital NHS Trust [HL9553] WA 139 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 140

London Organisation Foundation London Organisation Foundation Sector Trust Name Type Status Site Name Sector Trust Name Type Status Site Name

NC Great Acute – No Great Ormond NC Barnet, Mental No Edgware Ormond Specialist Street Hospital Enfield and Health and Community Street - Main Site Haringey Learning Hospital Hospital Mental Disability For Health Children NHS Trust NHS Trust NC University Acute - Yes The Heart NC University Acute - Yes New University College Teaching Hospital College Teaching College London London Hospital NHS NHS Foundation Foundation Trust Trust NC Imperial Acute - No Queen College Teaching Charlotte’s NC The Acute - No The Healthcare Hospital Whittington Medium Whittington NHS Trust Hospital Hospital NHS Trust NC Royal Free Acute - No Royal National Hampstead Teaching Throat, Nose & NC Barnet and Acute - No Chase Farm NHS Trust Ear Hospital Chase Farm Large Hospital NC Camden Care Trust Yes Highgate Hospitals and Hospital NHS Trust Islington NC Barnet and Acute - No Barnet General NHS Chase Farm Large Hospital Foundation Hospitals Trust NHS Trust NW Imperial Acute - No Charing Cross NC North Acute - No North College Teaching Hospital Middlesex Medium Middlesex Healthcare University University NHS Trust Hospital Hospital NHS NW North West Acute - No Northwick Park NHS Trust Trust London Large & St Mark’s Hospitals Hospitals NC University Acute - Yes Aggregate Site NHS Trust College Teaching London NW Imperial Acute - No St Mary’s NHS College Teaching Hospital Foundation Healthcare Trust NHS Trust NC Royal Acute – No The Royal NW Chelsea and Acute - Yes Chelsea and National Specialist National Westminster Teaching Westminster Orthopaedic Orthopaedic Hospital Healthcare Hospital Hospital NHS NHS Trust NHS Trust (Stanmore) Foundation Trust NC Moorfields Acute – Yes Moorfields Eye NW Imperial Acute - No Hammersmith Eye Specialist Hospital NHS College Teaching Hospital Hospital Trust Healthcare NHS NHS Trust Foundation Trust NW West Mental No Broadmoor London Health and Hospital NC Barnet PCT Primary No Edgware Mental Learning Care Trust Community Health Disability Hospital NHS Trust NC Barnet, Mental No St Ann’s NW West Mental No St Bernard’s Enfield and Health and Hospital London Health and Wing Haringey Learning Mental Learning Mental Disability Health Disability Health NHS Trust NHS Trust NW North West Acute - No Central NC University Acute - Yes National London Large Middlesex College Teaching Hospital Hospitals Hospital London Neurology/ NHS Trust NHS Neurosurgery NW Ealing Acute - No Ealing Hospital Foundation Hospital Small NHS Trust Trust NHS Trust NC Barnet, Mental No Chase Farm NW The Acute - No Mount Vernon Enfield and Health and Hospital Hillingdon Multi- Hospital Haringey Learning Hospital Service Mental Disability NHS Trust Health NW The Acute - No The Hillingdon NHS Trust Hillingdon Multi- Hospital NC Camden Primary No St Pancras Hospital Service PCT Care Trust Hospital NHS Trust WA 141 Written Answers[8 JUNE 2011] Written Answers WA 142

London Organisation Foundation London Organisation Foundation Sector Trust Name Type Status Site Name Sector Trust Name Type Status Site Name

NW Royal Acute - No Royal SE King’s Acute - Yes King’s College Brompton Specialist Brompton College Teaching Hospital and Hospital Hospital Harefield NHS NHS Foundation Foundation Trust Trust SE The Acute - No The Lewisham NW West Acute - No West Middlesex Lewisham Medium Hospital NHS Middlesex Small University Hospital Trust University Hospital NHS NHS Trust Hospital Trust SE South Acute - No Queen NHS Trust London Large Elizabeth Healthcare Hospital, NW Royal Acute - No Harefield NHS Trust Woolwich Brompton Specialist Hospital and SE South Acute - No Princess Royal Harefield London Large University NHS Healthcare Hospital Foundation NHS Trust Trust SE South Acute - No Queen Mary’s NW Kensington Primary No St Charles London Large Hospital, and Chelsea Care Trust Hospital Healthcare Sidcup PCT NHS Trust SE South Acute - No Orpington NW Central and Mental Yes St Charles London Large Hospital North West Health and MHU Healthcare London Learning NHS Trust NHS Disability Foundation SE Southwark Primary No Dulwich Trust PCT Care Trust Hospital ONEL Barking, Acute - No Queen’s SW St George’s Acute - No St George’s Havering Large Hospital Healthcare Teaching Hospital and NHS Trust Redbridge SW Kingston Acute - No Kingston University Hospital Medium Hospital Hospitals NHS Trust NHS Trust SW Mayday Acute - No Mayday ONEL Whipps Acute - No Whipps Cross Healthcare Medium University Cross Medium University NHS Trust Hospital University Hospital SW Epsom and Acute - No St Helier Hospital St Helier Large Hospital NHS Trust University ONEL Barking, Acute - No King George Hospitals Havering Large Hospital NHS Trust and SW South West Mental No Springfield Redbridge London and Health and University University St George’s Learning Hospital Hospitals Mental Disability NHS Trust Health ONEL North East Mental Yes Goodmayes NHS Trust London Health and Hospital SW South Mental Yes Bethlem Royal NHS Learning London and Health and Hospital Foundation Disability Maudsley Learning Trust NHS Disability Foundation ONEL Havering Primary No St George’s Trust PCT Care Trust Hospital SW Epsom and Acute - No Epsom General ONEL North East Mental Yes Mascalls Park St Helier Large Hospital London Health and University NHS Learning Hospitals Foundation Disability NHS Trust Trust SW The Royal Acute - Yes Royal Marsden SE Guy’s and Acute - Yes St Thomas’ Marsden Specialist Hospital, St Thomas’ Teaching Hospital NHS Sutton NHS Foundation Foundation Trust Trust SW South Mental Yes Maudsley SE Guy’s and Acute - Yes Guy’s Hospital London and Health and Hospital St Thomas’ Teaching Maudsley Learning NHS NHS Disability Foundation Foundation Trust Trust WA 143 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 144

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth London Organisation Foundation Sector Trust Name Type Status Site Name Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We believe the priority is a return to negotiations. We are pressing SW The Royal Acute - Yes Royal Marsden both the Israelis and the Palestinians to return to the Marsden Specialist Hospital, table further to President Obama’s speech of 19 May NHS Chelsea Foundation 2011, making clear that negotiations should be on the Trust basis of 1967 borders with swaps. SW Wandsworth Primary No Queen Mary’s As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister Teaching Care Trust Hospital (SLG) made clear in his joint press conference with President PCT Obama, we do not feel the time is right yet for a SW South West Mental No Tolworth London and Health and Hospital decision on the question of recognition. St George’s Learning Mental Disability Health Public Sector: Terms and Conditions NHS Trust SW South Mental Yes Lambeth Question London and Health and Hospital Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester Maudsley Learning NHS Disability Foundation To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Trust the Written Answer by Lord Taylor of Holbeach on SW Sutton and Primary No Orchard Hill 23 May (WA 373), how many people employed in Merton Care Trust Hospital the public sector, having contracted with the state PCT to lay down their lives if necessary in its service, SW Epsom and Acute - No Sutton Hospital died in service in each of the past 10 years.[HL9527] St Helier Large (RVR) University Hospitals Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The number of military NHS Trust personnel in the UK regular Armed Forces who died Source: NHS London: Capital and Investment Unit in service during each of the past 10 years is published on the Defence Analytical Services and Advice (DASA) Office of the European High website at www.dasa.mod.uk. Representative Information in the form requested for the wider Question public sector is not held centrally and could only be collated at disproportionate cost. Asked by Lord Myners To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have reviewed the effectiveness and efficiency of the Yemen: British Embassy Office of the European High Representative; and Question whether this office has contributed to a reduction in the costs of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Asked by Lord Chidgey [HL9522] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth they are taking to review and improve security for Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The high United Kingdom embassy staff in Sana’a, following representative’s office has played an important part in the recent surrounding of the United Kingdom orchestrating EU responses to Iran’s nuclear programme, ambassador and the besieging of the embassy of and to political unrest in Bosnia and Herzegovina. the United States by protestors. [HL9611] The office oversaw the opening of an EU office in Benghazi, and played a helpful role co-ordinating the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth EU’s response to the Pakistan floods. The EAS has Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Ensuring the safety not contributed to a reduction in the costs of the of our staff is our utmost priority. We constantly keep Foreign and Commonwealth Office, as the role of the under review the security situation in Sana’a, and take EAS is to supplement and complement, not replace steps as the situation requires. The siege of the United national diplomatic services. As a result of lobbying Arab Emirates ambassador’s residence on 22 May was by the UK, the council decision establishing the EAS disgraceful. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of committed the service to achieving budget neutrality State, my honourable friend the Member for North over the long term. East Bedfordshire (Mr Burt), made a public statement on 24 May condemning the Yemeni Government’s Palestine failure to ensure the protection of diplomats and Question diplomatic missions, while calling also on all sides to exercise restraint. The Secretary of State for Foreign Asked by Baroness Tonge and Commonwealth Affairs, the right honourable To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), also they have had with European partners on the formation announced on 26 May the temporary withdrawal of a of a common European Union policy towards the further four members of staff because of heightened recognition of a Palestinian state. [HL9550] security concerns. Wednesday 8 June 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Low Flying ...... 25 EU: Energy Council ...... 28

Aviation: National Air Traffic Services ...... 25 EU: Justice and Home Affairs Council...... 29 Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 33 Correction to Lords Written Answer ...... 26 National Minimum Wage ...... 33 EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 26 Shipping: Ship-to-ship Transfers...... 34

Wednesday 8 June 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Commemoration ...... 129 European Commission: Expenditure ...... 135

Armed Forces: Scotland...... 129 G20...... 135

Asylum Seekers...... 130 Gaza ...... 136

Bahrain...... 130 Government: Expenditure...... 136

Bank of England ...... 131 HMS “Ark Royal” ...... 137

Banking: Bonuses ...... 131 Identity Assurance...... 137

Banking: European Central Bank...... 132 Iran...... 137

Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland...... 132 NHS: Refurbishment ...... 138

BBC Trust: Welsh Member ...... 132 Office of the European High Representative...... 143

Donkeys...... 133 Palestine...... 143

Egypt and Tunisia...... 133 Public Sector: Terms and Conditions...... 144

EU: Membership ...... 134 Yemen: British Embassy ...... 144 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL8859] ...... 133 [HL9537] ...... 134

[HL9425] ...... 136 [HL9541] ...... 129

[HL9521] ...... 132 [HL9542] ...... 130

[HL9522] ...... 143 [HL9550] ...... 143

[HL9524] ...... 135 [HL9551] ...... 136

[HL9527] ...... 144 [HL9552] ...... 130

[HL9530] ...... 137 [HL9553] ...... 137

[HL9532] ...... 137 [HL9554] ...... 130

[HL9535] ...... 129 [HL9555] ...... 133 Col. No. Col. No. [HL9557] ...... 134 [HL9601] ...... 131 [HL9602] ...... 131 [HL9563] ...... 135 [HL9604] ...... 132 [HL9599] ...... 133 [HL9611] ...... 144 [HL9600] ...... 131 [HL9616] ...... 138 Volume 728 Wednesday No. 160 8 June 2011

CONTENTS

Wednesday 8 June 2011 His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh Motion for an Humble Address ...... 255 His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh Motion that a Message be Conveyed...... 260 Questions Oil Prices ...... 260 Businesses: Regional Growth Fund...... 263 Allotments...... 265 Travellers: Dale Farm ...... 267 Winterbourne View Private Notice Question ...... 269 Syria Private Notice Question ...... 272 Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and Representations) Bill [HL] Motion to Refer to Second Reading Committee ...... 275 European Union Bill Report (1st Day) ...... 275 Research: Science and Technology Committee Report Question for Short Debate ...... 326 European Union Bill Report (1st Day) (Continued)...... 341 Grand Committee War Widows’ Association of Great Britain ...... GC 27 Migrant Domestic Workers ...... GC 42 Disabled People: User-led Organisations...... GC 56 Anti-Semitism Questions for Short Debate ...... GC 71 Written Statements...... WS 25 Written Answers...... WA 129