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Boisi Center Interviews No the boisi center interviews no. 58: September 21, 2011 alan wolfe is the founding director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life and professor of political science at Boston College. He spoke with Boisi Center associate director Erik Owens before meeting with a panel of critics to discuss his latest book, Political Evil: What It Is And How to Combat It (2011). owens: How do you distinguish among University of Maryland, trying to get The basic idea behind this manifesto, the types of evil you see in the world? people to sign a liberal hawkish petition and behind a lot of the thinking that called the Euston Manifesto. They want- I was wrestling with, was the notion wolfe: My book is about a specific kind ed liberal intellectuals who supported that we’ve seen evil before—it took the of evil: evil used for political and strate- the general idea of U.S. intervention to form of totalitarianism with Hitler and gic ends. There is lots of evil that has no promote Stalin—and that what we’re witnessing is political character whatsoever, like people another replay of that in the world today. who shoot up schools like in Columbine, The manifesto went on to criticize the Colorado, or post office killings. Some left for standing by and not doing any- forms are mixed. For example, Nadal thing when those evils appeared in the Hassan at Fort Hood, Texas—maybe it past so as to not make that mistake again. was political, or maybe he was just crazy. It said: We’re going to recognize evil, label The “beltway snipers,” I think we can it correctly from the beginning, denounce consider them completely crazy rather it and do everything we can to stop it. That than having a political objective. (Even all seemed absolutely true; who could though some people said, because of argue with it? The general tone of it was his name, that John Muhammad had an something I sort of supported, but the Islamic objective, but I don’t think it’s more I began to think about it, I thought, true). Wait a minute, is Milosevic a Hitler? Is the Ultimately I’m not a psychologist. I can’t Rwandan genocide like Nazism? At this look into people’s heads, and as I say in point, the questions started following. the book: acts are easier to change than owens: Your case against misplaced people. I don’t know what motivates analogies really exemplifies the book’s people to do evil things, and I’m not sure broader argument that how we name we’ll ever know. I think it’s endlessly things, how we describe events, has enor- fascinating, but if we’re going to be con- mous moral and political implications. cerned with political evil, then we should human rights abroad to stop really look at what people do and not who they wolfe: Right. The book is about awful regimes. I looked at it, read it, and are. language and how we use it. Samantha thought, I’m in general sympathy with this, Power’s book, A Problem from Hell, is im- owens: What led you to take up this but something still bothered me. I just portant for individuals concerned about question? couldn’t bring myself to sign it. And then naming. We refused to name things I spent the next six years thinking about wolfe: Well, it was actually a very genocide when we should have, and then it, writing a book that answered why I specific thing. I received an email from later that became opposed by the fact that couldn’t sign that email. Jeffrey Herf, who teaches history at the we were naming things ‘genocide’ too 1 the boisi center interview: alan wolfe often. The politics of naming has gone to means to achieve, but it was achievable. Benjamin Netanyahu, who happens to the other extreme. Did the terrorists who bombed the World have written two books about evil and has Trade Center achieve some of their goals? very pronounced views about it. But, I owens: Can you give examples of when If they wanted to draw the United States think they are the wrong views. Wanting it has gone to the other extreme? into a war in Afghanistan the way they to turn the conflict into a crusade of good wolfe: I found myself just simply not had drawn Russia into the war in Af- against evil, Israel reacted with Operation agreeing with a lot of the “Save Darfur” ghanistan, then yes, they achieved them. Cast Lead with an evil of its own. It block- rhetoric. I thought that what was going aded an area and imposed disproportion- owens: What happens if you do come on in Darfur (and still is to some de- ately cruel costs on innocent people. And across someone you consider to be politi- gree, although to a much lesser extent) so Israel found itself, at least in world cally evil today? How does your book tell is tragic, cruel and can be seen as the opinion, judged to be on the same level as us we should respond to them? product of a vicious leader named Omar the evil it was fighting. And maybe Israel al-Bashir. However, to call it genocide doesn’t care, but it should, because world just didn’t correspond with everything opinion is a part of what we call soft pow- I was reading about what was actually er. Israel’s position has been weakened happening there. “What is really because it responded to political evil in the wrong way. owens: How do you distinguish be- tween sui generis “totalitarian evil” that horrendous owens: One of the striking themes of you say we’ve misplaced in analogies, about terrorism, your book is that, when thinking about and the Bashirs/Milosevics who you call political evil in the world, we needn’t “politically evil”? genocide, and worry ourselves about the psychological or philosophical foundations of their wolfe: Calling them politically evil ethnic cleansing wickedness. Why not try to understand doesn’t necessarily mean that they are the foundations of their evil? less evil. They are tyrants who do hor- are the means rible things to their people, but I think wolfe: I’m certainly personally inter- Milosevic and Bashir were not threats to used to achieve ested in the philosophy, metaphysics, and world peace in the way Hitler was. To call theology of evil. I teach a course about them politically evil is, I think, a more their ends. We it, and I love to read books like Shake- effective way of trying to stop them than recognize the speare’s Richard III and ponder about just labeling them as evil. That is because what made him evil. So, I’m not trying to when you label them as evil, you paralyze political ends.” discredit the importance of those aspects yourself. We can’t eradicate evil from the of evil. I’m just saying that if we want hearts of men. We can’t end evil. Once to think about what kind of policies we you proclaim those goals, you are setting should develop in the world, we need first yourself up to fail, or maybe you never to come down from that high and abso- wanted to succeed. I think we need to wolfe: There are examples of political lutely fascinating level of philosophical lower our sights a little bit, realize that evil in the world today. Once we identify and theological analysis. they are engaged in political actions, and them, we have to think about how to stop owens: How would you respond to the try to stop them on that level. them. For example, I think that Israelis Clausewitzian idea that war is politics by are threatened by political evil; the goals owens: You write in your book that other means? Do you see the things that of the two major terrorist organizations, political evil aims for achievable goals. you lay out as political evil, like terrorism, Hamas and Hezbollah, are to just abso- What do you mean by that? as a form of politics, or is political evil lutely kill Israeli citizens in order to get something not political in that sense? wolfe: Political evil involves strategi- what they want. That’s evil and beyond cally pushing an achievable goal. Hitler’s the laws of normal organized terrorism. wolfe: No, the things I’m concerned goal to exterminate the world’s Jews about are political. Terrorism, even sui- When terrorists from the Gaza Strip was, fortunately, not achievable. Stalin’s cide terrorism, is very political. Univer- attacked, threw bombs at Israeli cities goal to create a classless society was also sity of Chicago political scientist Robert like Sderot, and killed civilians, that was unachievable. Can you create a Serbia Pape has pointed out that terrorism is absolutely political evil. What should Isra- that’s overwhelmingly Serbian? I think motivated by strategic choices. What is el do about that? Well, they have a leader, you can. It’s a goal that used horrible really horrendous about terrorism, geno- 2 the boisi center interview: alan wolfe cide, and ethnic cleansing are the means wolfe: It’s a good question. One owens: The New York Times review of used to achieve their ends. We recognize possible answer is that if we really need your book that recently came out focused the political ends: while ethnic cleansing to resort to that extreme language, we on your “return to realism.” I wonder is deplorable and ought to be condemned, shouldn’t be doing it in the first place.
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