TaiAn Interview with DaoistChi Lineage Master Classics Bruce Frantzis by Matthew Brewer

What are the Taiji Classics and what is their 1RZ DV , ZHQW IXUWKHU , OHDUQHG IURP /LX KRZ relevance to Taiji practice? those same principles had their cognates within The Taiji Classics include the overarching Daoist meditation, which has more to do with principles of what is known today as Taijiquan. how the principles are applied in terms of spirit. Each principle is more like a book title, having an Again, principles are generalised and have many, H[WUDRUGLQDU\QXPEHURIUDPL¿FDWLRQV many layers of meaning. It isn’t just one thing. Today, most people who teach Taiji don’t really know the Classics. +RZ GLG \RX ¿UVW HQFRXQWHU WKH Classics and how were they taught? :KHQ,¿UVWOHDUQHG7DLMLLQ7DLZDQmy teachers It sounds as though traditional Taijiquan doesn’t would use phrases from the Taiji Classics that I have the mind or the spirit work of the Daoist didn’t understand. When I subsequently trained in tradition and that Liu showed you more about Tokyo with Wang Shu Jin’s most senior student the roots of the Classics. there, he too would throw out old classical /LXWDXJKWPHIURPWKHURRWVEHFDXVHWKDW¶VKRZ Chinese phrases in Japanese. Although I still he learned it, and because he understood Taiji didn’t understand the meaning, what was very as a martial art and the internal martial arts in clear is that when a teacher really wanted to make JHQHUDO+HFRXOGFOHDUO\VHHWKHWKUHDG7KHTaiji a point, they would quote something from the Classics go to this point, but then what are the Classics. implications of those statements? Many martial arts practitioners only know some of the chapters As the years went on, I found that some teachers in the book. They don’t know all the chapters in would commonly either state a principle from the the book and depending upon the tradition, it’s a Classics and then teach it, or teach you a lot of stuff question of how much is left out. You see if you and say, ”Well, this is where it is in the Classics,” have a body of knowledge, depending upon the DQGNHHSJRLQJWKURXJKWKHUDPL¿FDWLRQV applications you try to create, you may not use most of them. You may only use some parts of 7KHQLQZKHQ,ZDV¿UVWOHDUQLQJWKH2OG WKHERG\RINQRZOHGJHWKDWDUHQHHGHGIRUVSHFL¿F Yang Style I was taught Classics line by line. This applications, or you may use the whole thing. RFFXUUHG ¿UVW ZLWK %DL +XD /LX +XQJ &KLHK¶V RWKHUGLVFLSOHDQGWKHQP\WHDFKHU/LXKLPVHOI There is nothing written in the Taiji Classics that :LWK /LX LW ZHQW IXUWKHU EHFDXVH KH ZHQW LQWR says: If you do this, you will become spiritually where and how the Classics interrelate with the enlightened; if you do that, you will become a Daoist tradition. OLYLQJ %XGGKD RU LI \RX GR WKLV DQG WKDW \RX will become a Daoist immortal. Instead, the text The vast majority of the material that’s in the looks at how to practice martial and energetic Taiji Classics, most of the phrases that have to do techniques, or describes a generalised principle to with qi and spirit, come from a much older work embody. The implication is that, if you do, you WKDWZDVIURPIRXURU¿YHKXQGUHG\HDUVHDUOLHU, will be able to replicate what is talked about in the believe it’s called the Hua Ting Ning Jing. While following stanzas. the rest are taken from war manuals. Again, the Taiji Classics are more geared towards So, you have to know how to look at the Taiji martial arts. As I have repeatedly said, I once spent Classics in terms of what it’s doing for your qi time with Yang Shouzhong (Yang Zhenming) who RUKRZLWLVVSHFL¿FDOO\UHODWLQJWRZKDW\RXGR was the original Yang’s eldest great grandson. In with your qi and your mind to produce the internal my conversations with him, he said that his family SRZHUXVHGIRU¿JKWLQJEHFDXVHWKH\¶UHDOOPL[HG had never practiced meditation, “We do martial together. In the old Chinese way of doing things arts and qigong. That is what we have always these weren’t considered to be separate. The done.” So many of the implications about where internal martial arts were based upon applying practice might take you in terms of emotions, the the principles of qigong and the larger principle mind, karma and essence, what you might call of Daoist meditation to be effective in warfare. So serious spiritual subjects was not a part of Taiji. to say exactly where one started and the other one Yang was very clear that his family did not do ¿QLVKHGZDVDOLWWOHELWWULFN\ meditation, and he knew that this was going to be a shared statement.

24 Tai Chi Chuan & Oriental Arts Autumn 2010 25 You have highlighted the phrase “From ultimately dealing with how all the energies +RZHYHU WKH VSLULWXDO DVSHFW IRXQG LQ WKH SRLQWZHOO2QHWRXFKHVWKHHOHSKDQW¶VWDLODQG level of awareness and the posture to posture the internal energy is a human being can bring into play have to Wu Style is not present in the Yang Style. It he thinks it’s a snake. Another one touches the impetus to do something, unbroken,” (Shi shi shang chung jin bu manifest through the body, or you can’t call may have been adapted in some other Daoist elephant’s body and says it’s a wall. Another but emotions have a duan) as being one of the most important and it a martial art. You could be a spiritually meditation lineages, but I was never exposed one touches its leg and thinks it’s a pillar. natural lifespan. you’ve spoken of it as a spiritual principle. Is enlightened being, but still could get knocked to it. I was taught the whole process of It’s one elephant, but at each angle certain it also as an energetic and even physical one? on your butt if you didn’t know how to use shengong within the Wu Style, and have the features are dramatically more noticeable than Such emotions are a very Yes \RXU ERG\ %HLQJ WRWDOO\ FOHDU GRHVQ¶W PHDQ knowledge and the capacity to pass it on to a others. The elephant may even appear to be powerful motivating that you couldn’t have your head cracked future generation. an entirely different object. Whichever part factor. You rise up and you Could you tell us about this one thread that open. you focus on seems to be the whole thing, become more normal and runs through the jing, qi and shen (body, qi The other equally important phrase that you but it’s only a part of it. You can’t say any more happy, because now and spirit) phases of practice? There is an old Zen story that tries to make a have highlighted is: “When one part moves, part is something different from the elephant is the time to go and do First, you must grasp “From posture to parallel with that idea, which is, I think, false. all parts move; one part stops, all parts stop” because the elephant moves as one piece. It something about it. If you posture,” which implies from action to It talks about a Zen priest who was in a town (Yi dong wu you bu dong; yi jing wu you doesn’t move as forty pieces going in different were to stay in a depressed action: from physical movement to physical when a crazy guy arrives. The priest makes bu jing). Would you tell us more about directions. state, you’d empathise movement the internal power is unbroken. the mistake of saying something that annoys this phrase and how it relates to the three with the child, but you’d /LNH D OLJKW EXOE ZKHWKHU WKH OLJKW VKLQHV WKHFUD]\JX\VRKHVD\V³2ND\,¶OOPHHW\RX treasures? How does sinking the qi work as a physical probably sit there while bright or goes low with the dimmer switch, the three days hence and we’ll have it out.” The main point is that it’s absolutely required principle, energetic principle and so on? the child died in front of electricity is always connected. WRLPSOHPHQWWKH¿UVWSKUDVH´)URPSRVWXUH Physically there is a basic principle in Chinese you. 7KH SULHVW VD\V ³, FDQ¶W ¿JKW´ VR KH JHWV D to posture the internal energy is unbroken.” medicine that energy the body cannot use, My last question is about application. What With Daoist meditation you come to the master swordsman to come and teach him ”Unbroken” implies that something could waste products, blocked energy, is most easily It’s the same thing if you’re happy. Where’s training methods would be most effective for question of: from mental space to mental KRZWR¿JKW7KHPDVWHUVD\V³dantian”? space, whether active or quiescent, are your completely one-pointed in what you do.” So all parts move” implies not broken and exit into the ground. All your body’s waste manic? Where’s the line between really being Would standing practices be the place to start? emotions connected? Are your emotions well the priest demonstrates that he can be one- FRQQHFWHG´2QHSDUWVWRSVDOOSDUWVVWRS´LI products, such as, faeces, urine and sweat, happy and not being able to recognise what balanced, functioning, doing what they’re pointed in his meditation. So the master says, one part stops and the others keep moving, that QDWXUDOO\ÀRZGRZQZDUGV needs to be done? If you talk about a person who’s just starting, supposed to do? The same thing goes for “You’ll go out and beat him.” And the story again implies that the connection is broken. an ordinary person who’s not going to put mental and psychic spheres as well as your goes that the priest goes out and beats the guy. The difference between the two phrases, at When the body clears the qi downwards, most There are cycles. The body has cycles just the hours and hours a day of practice in, yes karma. Is your karma connected or is it a very practical level, is that the statement, diseases disappear because blockages are like weather changing. Regarding emotional I would say that standing is the easiest access EORFNHGDQGFORJJHGXS"%DGNDUPDDQGWKH This is hogwash. The fact of the matter is ”the power is unbroken,” is looking at the fact removed in the process. Two things occur: energy, how can you sink your qi so that when point to learning how to sink qi. It doesn’t corresponding actions rip you to shreds at the that the priest’s mind could be as open as that the connection is manifested and fully First, if you clear down the body, you also the emotion has run its course, excess energy have to be standing with your arms by your level of essence. Is your essence actually fully possible, but that does not mean that his body integrated. It is the large, general principle. clear the same channels that allow energy to naturally clears and you more easily move side (which I describe in detail in my book, connected and fully awake, or is it intermittent LV FRQQHFWHG VXI¿FLHQWO\ ZLWKRXW ZKLFK KLV 7KHVHFRQGRQHLVPXFKPRUHDERXWWKH¿QH rise up your body. Secondly, there’s another onto the next thing? Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body), or turning on-off-on-off-on? Well, the same opponent would simply draw his sword and GHWDLOVWKDWDOORZ\RXWR¿QGRXWZKHWKHUWKH basic principle that the way the body works standing with your arms out in front of you parallel exists between having power in terms cut the priest’s head off before he could blink. big principle is being implemented, the little energetically is that if its qi sinks, it rises Sinking qi is also important in terms of as if you were hugging a tree. The standing RI¿JKWLQJDQGLQWHUPVRIFRQWLQXLQJ\RXUOLIH Yes, the priest was connected in certain areas, stuff without which you never arrive. That’s automatically, just like bouncing a basketball. becoming physically grounded. The lower practice could just as easily be done holding and your spiritual existence. but not in others. A martial art has to include about the only difference between the two Now, the opposite is not true. You can dantian is the only connection point of all the standard postures of the Taiji form, which physical capacity; otherwise you cannot statements. raise qi but it may not sink. You can charge the channels of your body that relate to your was the way it was commonly taught in the Shi shi shang chung jin bu duan is a basic call it a martial art. You can do martial arts your channels but you may not release the physicality. The other dantians in the body Yang Style of Taiji, but was not done as much FRQVLGHUDWLRQ LQ DOO RI 'DRLVP 2QH RI WKH movements as meditation, but it cannot be a In your book, Taiji: Health for Life, you blockages that are in them, which may cause don’t necessarily connect with your physical by the Wu family. most fundamental concepts in this Chinese martial art unless it is capable of engaging in explain that many of the phrases in the problems, such as going a bit crazy or having body. %HFDXVH WKH\ GRQ¶W FRQQHFW ZLWK WKH spiritual tradition is things being fully and war(YHQLI\RXQHYHUKDYHDSK\VLFDOFRQÀLFW Classics are interconnected and build upon physical problems. physical body a person could end up being The interviewer LV %UXFH¶V VWXGHQW 'U smoothly connected: being connected to the you have to have the capacity to handle it. each other. purely mental. Much of life is about the reality 0DWWKHZ %UHZHU +H LV D FHUWL¿HG (QHUJ\ Earth, to the Universe, to yourself and your More accurately, they are all interconnected. From an emotional perspective, very yang of being in a body. You are not just some ghost Arts instructor and is a Registered Instructor emotions. Are you connected physically, emotionally? In You just have to understand that the emotions such as anger, frustration, extreme ÀRDWLQJDURXQG7KHUH¶VDGLIIHUHQFHEHWZHHQ ZLWKWKH7&8*%+HWHDFKHUVZHHNO\FODVVHV terms of the spiritual realm, you must move interconnections exist and what they are. That greed or anxiety are usually about energy virtual reality and physical reality. LQDQGDURXQG&DQWHUEXU\DQGUXQVWKH1+6 2I FRXUVH \RX FDQ EH GLVFRQQHFWHG )RU from where martial arts can be done not only is seeing all the parts as one whole fabric. Then in the body rising and not being able to Taiji for Chronic Pain Service for Eastern and example, the ego is nothing more than the as qigong, but shengong. Shengong is spiritual again, some of the groupings of phrases are fall. So if you’re able to create a downward When you’re angry, if your qi sinks to your &RDVWDO .HQW  +LV ZHEVLWH LV ZZZWDLFKL biggest disconnecting devise in the universe. qigong, where you move into the space of the more interconnected because they are looking ÀRZ RI TL PDQ\ RI WKH SUREOHPV JR DZD\ dantian enough, you’re not so angry. Thus, uk.com. +RZHYHU'DRLVWVGRQ¶WJRRQDERXWWKHHJR HPRWLRQV WKURXJK WR HVVHQFH +HUH \RX¶UH at a certain part of the tapestry. /LNHZLVH\RXFDQKDYHWKHRSSRVLWHSUREOHP sinking your qi calms the emotions that derive They simply talk about connection. If you are doing martial arts within the emotional, of energy dropping down the body, but not IURP \RXU ERG\ /DWHU WKH IDFW WKDW \RXU TL Bruce Frantzis spent more than a decade fully connected, the ego is effectively null mental, psychic and karmic realms. Would you mind illustrating that point with being able to rise up. In this case, emotions can move down enough makes your body following the Daoist path of warrior/healer/ and void. As long as you keep focusing on one of the phrases: “Sinking the qi to the become extremely yin and you may begin to very stable. It becomes a platform from which priest in China, where he was trained by some the ego, you’re focusing on something that At times, shengong was referred to only as dantian” (qi chen dantian)? experience depression, loneliness, sadness or \RXEHJLQWRVHH\RXUHPRWLRQVDQGÀRZZLWK RILWVJUHDWHVWPDVWHUV+HLVWKH¿UVWNQRZQ ultimately doesn’t exist, because everything in psychic achievement, where you could do Although not overtly stated, the implication grief. If your qi can fully drop down to the WKHP+RZIDUGR\RXJRZLWK\RXUHPRWLRQV" Westerner to hold authentic lineages in qigong, the universe is connected. The problem is that WKLQJVSV\FKLFDOO\%XWSV\FKLFDELOLW\LVRQO\ of “Sinking qi to the dantian” is that the qi lower dantian, it circulates down and then up, ,W¶VDQLVVXHRIEDODQFH,W¶VYHU\GLI¿FXOWWREH bagua, Taiji, hsing-i and Daoist meditation. your mind is blocked, so it’s not connecting. a small piece of a larger subject. actually sinks completely to your feet, into clearing these exaggerated emotions. balanced if you lack a central point inside you Frantzis also studied in Japan and India for There isn’t any problem with the universe. the earth, and circulates back up, reconnecting that’s stable. ¿YH\HDUVDQGKDVH[WHQVLYHH[SHULHQFHLQ=HQ To follow that up, in terms of “jing, qi and to the dantian. The whole circle is made so From the perspective of Daoist meditation, 7LEHWDQ%XGGKLVP\RJD.XQGDOLQLHQHUJHWLF This is where you start in the spiritual tradition shen”, qi and shen would be shengong. the entire body is connected to the lower there is no problem with the existence of any %H\RQG WKH HPRWLRQV \RX KDYH WKH SV\FKLF healing therapies and Daoist Fire and Water of Daoism. The classic phrase in Daoist Yes. dantian. Again, this reinforces the statements: emotion. There is no problem with being angry level. What is it to have that point of stability WUDGLWLRQV +H SRVWV DUWLFOHV UHJXODUO\ RQ KLV meditation is “jing, qi, shen” which translates “From posture to posture the internal energy or sad, or even being mildly depressed about LQVLGH\RX"+RZGRDOOWKHSV\FKLFHQHUJLHV blog, www.TaiChiMaster.com. as “body, energy, spirit” and is known as the 0\ WHDFKHU /LX WDXJKW PH 7DLML LQ WHUPV RI LVXQEURNHQ´DQG³2QHSDUWPRYHVDOOSDUWV the state of the world or the people around in a person intersect with their physical body? three treasures. Martial arts are essentially shengong, which is the primary reason I teach move.” If at any point the qi is not sunk to the you. I said mildly, I didn’t say extremely! If you cannot sink your qi to the dantian, you )RU WKH ¿UVW WLPH LQ PRUH WKDQ D GHFDGH about the body (jing) phase. In classic Wu Style Taiji. I know how shengong works dantian, it means that one part of your body Emotions can motivate you to ponder or FDQQRW ¿QG WKDW SODFH ,Q WHUPV RI NDUPD LI Lineage Master Bruce Frantzis will be Daoism, jing is about the ability of the body to in the Wu Style, which does not exist in the is moving while another part is not. They consider different aspects of life that otherwise you want to be able to recognise what you need RIIHULQJDFHUWL¿FDWLRQSURJUDPLQ:X6W\OH generate whatever it can generate: the energy Yang Style. I do not teach Wu Style for purely are not different statements, but rather they you would ignore. If you are only happy and to do, you must simultaneously be present in 7DL&KL6KRUW)RUP7KLVLQWHQVLYHFRXUVH WKDWDOORZVWKHERG\WRGRZKDWLWFDQ+RZ physical reasons although there are good are looking at the same thing from different only high you can watch a baby bleeding out \RXU ERG\ /LNHZLVH ZKHQ \RX VWDUW JRLQJ SOXV VPDOOHU ZRUNVKRSV ZLOO RFFXU -XO\ can you call martial arts anything more than physical reasons to teach it. Wu Style will do angles. RQWKHVWUHHWDQG\RX¶OOZDONE\DQGVD\´2K LQWRWKHVXSHUUDUH¿HGPHQWDOUHDOP\RXFDQ through August 2011 in Brighton, England, WKDW",WLVDERG\WKDW¿JKWVDERG\LQPDUWLDO things that the larger styles of Taiji, like the that’s very nice, oh I’m really feeling well get lost in the world of purely mental ideas, see www.Energyarts.comIRUGHWDLOV arts. So, to bring power out of the body to Yang Style, don’t do as well, but they are The old Indian story about a bunch of blind today,” and you’ll walk on. So, the fact that mental constructions, unless you sink your qi defend against somebody else’s body, you’re essentially the same style. wise men touching an elephant illustrates this you can have down emotions can also bring a to your dantian.

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