COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA SENATE Official Committee Hansard LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Reference: Copyright Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997 WEDNESDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 1998 CANBERRA by authority of the Senate INTERNET The Proof and Official Hansard transcripts of Senate committee hearings, some House of Representatives committee hearings and some joint committee hearings are available on the Internet. Some House of Representatives committees and some joint committees make available only Official Hansard transcripts. The Internet address is: http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard SENATE WEDNESDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 1998 LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Members: Senator Abetz (Chair), Senator McKiernan (Deputy Chair), Senators Bolkus, Coonan, Murray and O’Chee Participating members: Senators Bartlett, Brown, Bob Collins, Colston, Cooney, Ferris, Gibbs, Harradine, Lundy, Mackay, Margetts, McGauran, Murphy and Neal Senators in attendance: Senators Abetz, Bartlett, Cooney and McKiernan Matter referred by the Senate for inquiry into and report on: Copyright Amendment Bill (No.2) 1997 WITNESSES BLUNDY, Mr Brett, Managing Director, Sanity Music, 36 Ashford Avenue, Milperra, New South Wales 2214 .......................................... 73 CORBETT, Mr Roger, Managing Director, Retail, Woolworths Ltd, Level 5, 540 George Street, Sydney, New South Wales ............................ 73 ELDER, Mr Bruce Douglas, 11 Pacific Street, Kiama, New South Wales 2533 . 74 COTTLE, Mr Brett, Chief Executive, Australasian Performing Rights Association, 16 Atchison Street, St Leonards, New South Wales ........................ 79 FAULKNER, Mr David Jonathan, Member, Australasian Performing Rights Association, 16 Atchison Street, St Leonards, New South Wales ............ 79 McCUSKER, Mr Eric Maltby, Director, Australasian Performing Rights Association, 16 Atchison Street, St Leonards, New South Wales ..................... 79 BAULCH, Ms Elizabeth Mary, Executive Officer, Australian Copyright Council, 3/245 Chalmers Street, Redfern, New South Wales 2016 ...................... 89 CASWELL, Mr David Allan, Member, Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance, Cnr Chalmers and Redfern Streets, Redfern, New South Wales ............... 97 HRYCE, Ms Michel Maree, New South Wales Branch Secretary, Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance, 245 Chalmers Street, Redfern, New South Wales ........ 97 ROWE, Mr Norman John, AM, Member, Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance, Cnr Chalmers and Redfern Streets, Redfern, New South Wales ............... 97 FABINYI, Mr Jeremy Rohan, Chief Executive, Australian Music Publishers Association Ltd and Australian Mechanical Copyright Owners Society Ltd, 6-12 Atchison Street, St Leonards, New South Wales 2065 ............................... 111 RICCOBONO, Ms Fifa, Deputy Chair, Australian Music Publishers Association Ltd and Australian Mechanical Copyright Owners Society Ltd, and General Manager, J. Albert and Son Pty Ltd, 6-12 Atchison Street, St Leonards, New South Wales 2065 ....................................................... 111 SPECK, Mr Jorg Michael, Manager, Investigations, Music Industry Piracy Investigat- ions, 8th Floor, 263 Clarence Street, Sydney, New South Wales ............125 Wednesday, 4 February 1998 SENATE—Legislation L&C 73 Committee met at 8.46 a.m. CHAIR—At the meeting of the Senate Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee on 2 December 1997, the Selection of Bills Committee recommended that Copyright Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1997 be referred to this committee for inquiry and report by 23 March 1998. The Senate agreed with this recommendation. The committee has so far received 172 submissions on the bill and held a public hearing yesterday in Canberra. Further public hearings have been scheduled throughout this month and March. A detailed list of witnesses for today’s hearing has been circulated and is available from the secretariat. Lists for later hearings will be prepared and circulated as required. It should be noted that these proceedings and submissions given as evidence are protected by parliamentary privilege. It should also be noted that the committee prefers all evidence to be given in public. However, should a witness at any stage wish to give evidence or a part of their evidence in camera or in private, they may make an application to do so and the committee will consider that request. BLUNDY, Mr Brett, Managing Director, Sanity Music, 36 Ashford Avenue, Milperra, New South Wales 2214 CORBETT, Mr Roger, Managing Director, Retail, Woolworths Ltd, Level 5, 540 George Street, Sydney, New South Wales CHAIR—The committee has received submissions from both of you which you have asked be kept confidential for commercial reasons. The committee has granted this request, bearing in mind the committee’s preference that, wherever possible, evidence be given in public. I now invite you to make any opening remarks you may wish to prior to your application to be heard in private or in camera. If there are no comments that you wish to put on the public record, then I suggest that we deal with your request to move into private session. Mr Corbett—I am happy to put something on the public record. Australia has trade practices legislation which ensures that the Australian marketplace is competitive, and the Australian retail market would be amongst the most competitive in the world. There are areas where, because of the law associated with the matters that we are talking about this morning, the Australian public pays significantly more. Even taking into account currency adjustments, sales tax and other variables, the Australian public pays very much more than their counterparts around the world for equivalent merchandise. We would strongly submit that, if the trade practices legislation applies to make Australia a competitive marketplace, why are there laws and rules that prevent that competitive marketplace being available to the Australian public? The area of CD music is, I think, one of the dramatic examples of that differential. Mr Blundy—Except for thanking you for the opportunity to appear, I would like to make my statements and take any questions in private. CHAIR—I understand that. The committee has had a request for evidence to be taken in camera. Are there any questions about that request? Senator McKIERNAN—I understand that Mr Alan Jones, a radio commentator on one of the commercial stations in Sydney, made reference in his program this morning to the fact that Woolworths would be saying certain things before the committee. There is mention in the Australian Financial Review that Woolworths will be appearing before this committee this morning. In regard to that, what is the point of going in camera and making confidential submissions if the submissions you have already made to the committee may be out in the public arena already? Is that the case? Are they in the public arena? LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL L&C 74 SENATE—Legislation Wednesday, 4 February 1998 Mr Corbett—As they refer to Woolworths, I will respond to that. The answer is that the submissions that I have made on behalf of Woolworths to this committee are in confidence. Firstly, I do not think the article actually reveals what is in those letters. Secondly, I do not know where Mr Jones gets his information from, but it certainly was not from any source within Woolworths, so therefore it must be a high level of conjecture on Mr Jones’s part. Senator COONEY—I am only a participating member of this particular committee. CHAIR—You are a distinguished former chair of this committee, Senator Cooney. Senator COONEY—Thank you. I will just say that I prefer that evidence not be given in camera. We are going to try to come to some conclusion about this legislation, and if evidence is given in camera the inference is that we should not use it. I can understand the position you are taking in that you want to inform the committee and help the committee by giving it a background briefing, but there are two things about that. Firstly, you might give us some quite vital evidence that we cannot use directly and, secondly, even though the evidence is taken in camera, the committee is able—and I think this will be confirmed by the chair—to use that evidence if it is so inclined. We might take the evidence in camera, giving you the impression that it will be treated confidentially, but when the committee looks at it, it might well say, ‘Look, our responsibility really is to make this public.’ CHAIR—I was going to explain that. Senator COONEY—Good. For those two reasons, I think it is not a good idea to take evidence in camera, even though there is provision for it. Mr Blundy—Mr Chairman, I am at your mercy. I am here to do the best I can for your information, but the industry does have a monopoly—there is only one place that I can source individual titles. That is sometimes a dangerous situation for a retailer to be in. Some of the things that I might say might not be agreed with by the supply side of the industry. However, I have requested it. CHAIR—The members of the committee have agreed to let you give in camera evidence. Evidence was then taken in camera, but later resumed in public— [9.32 a.m.] ELDER, Mr Bruce Douglas, 11 Pacific Street, Kiama, New South Wales 2533 CHAIR—Welcome, Mr Elder. Would you like to make an opening statement? Mr Elder—I am a senior music critic for the Sydney Morning Herald and have been a music critic in both Australia and the UK for the last 25 years. The reason that I come before you is basically to present a series of viewpoints that will perhaps run counter to those being presented by the lobby groups for the copyright council, composers, the record industry, et cetera. Basically, I want to try to do two things. I want to speak very briefly about my views on what needs to be done and then allow the committee to ask me as many questions as possible. Apart from being a record reviewer, I also lecture at university and in business organisations about change.