University of Illinois at Springfield

Norris L. Brookens Library

Archives/Special Collections

Margaret Monaghan Munn Memoir

M925. Munn, Margaret Monaghan (1908-1995) Interview and memoir 4 tapes, 273 mins., 56 pp.

ADLAI E. STEVENSON II Munn, personal secretary of Governor Stevenson, 1949-52, discusses her work and association with Stevenson: functions and duties of personnel, accomplishments and problems of Stevenson's administration, relations with the press, the presidential campaign of 1952, his last days in office, and his death.

Interview by Stephen Bean, 1975 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes, photographs, photocopies of articles on Stevenson and Munn, and photocopies of letters and telegrams.

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407

© 1975, University of Illinois Board of Trustees PREFACE

This manuscript is the product of tape-recorded interviews conducted by Stephen 13ean for the Oral History Office during July of 1975. Stephen Bean and Rosalyn Bone transcribed the tapes and Stephen 13ean and Kay Mac• Lean edited the transcript. Margaret Munn reviewed the transcript.

Margaret Munn was born in Springfield, Illinois on September 6, 1908. She was educated in the Catholic school system and brought up in a political family. Her first political experience was helping her cousin Andy O'Neill get elected to the Illinois House of Representatives in the late 1930's. After working in Springfield for a time, she left for work in Washington, D.C. and New York. She later returned to Springfield 'when her father be• carne ill and entered State service. She served in the Departrent of Fi• nance under Governor Green's administration.

In 1949 Margaret Munn joined the Stevenson administration as a personal secretary to Governor Stevenson at the mansion office. Mrs. Munn became close friends with Governor Stevenson and other members of the administration. These close personal ties continued beyond Governor Stevenson's tenure in · office. Mrs. Munn witnessed the people, the places, and the happenings of the administration from her job. Her tenure of service with Governor Stevenson clifuaied with the 1952 Presidential campaign. Following the de• feat of Governor Stevenson in 1952, she went to work for the IEpartment of Mental Health. Today she serves as the chief of the Bureau of Hearings and Appeals.

From her many years of working with Governor Stevenson and later corresponding with him Mrs. Murm has collected personal correspondences with Governor Stevenson, the handwritten concession telegram to Eisenhower, photographs and many other written materials. This collection of books, photographs, and written materials allows her to maintain a fresh impres• sion of the Stevenson administration and the years following.

Readers of this oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and editor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style that is inher• ent in such historical sources. Sangamon State University is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the remoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.

The manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by means, electronic or mechanical, without permission in writing from the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708. TABlE OF CONTENTS

Background 1 Involvement in politics 2 Adlai Stevenson II 4 Governor Stevenson's staff 5 Functions and duties of personnel 7 Mansion 10 Governor Stevenson's dog King Arthur 11 Social life 13 Relationship and problems with press 14 Alger Hiss 16 State Police affair 17 Adlai Stevenson II 18 Cabinet rr:errbers 19 Accomplishments of Stevenson administration 20 Bill Blair 21 Mansion staff and guests 22 Work, problems, scandals 23 Plan for continuation of first-term program 25 Presidential nomination 28 Presidential draft 31 Speech writing 33 Returning to Springfield; state business 35 Campaign headquarters, chairman, staff, 36 writers, volunteers Campaigning by plane 40 Ftmny incident on campaign trail 41 Hotels on tour; Snoo farm 42 Whistle-stopping 43 Menard penitentiary riot 44 Traveling staff and guests 45 Final days of campaign 47 Telegrams on night of defeat 48 Last days of office 50 Last offical appearance in Springfield 51 Funeral arrangements 52 Margaret M. Munn, July, 1975, Springfield, Illinois.

Stephen Bean, Interviewer.

Q. Mrs. Munn, could you tell us the interesting story surroilllding your birth?

A. Yes, but may I preface this by saying that it strikes TIE as strange that we are here today talking about--primarily, Adlai Stevenson is what the topic is going to be and today is the tenth anniversary of his death. He died ten years ago today, [on] July 14, 1965, in London, England. I did want to make a point of that, because I haven't seen anything in any of the newspapers and I just want the record to show soneplace along the line that someone reiiErrbered.

Now as far as I'm personally concerned, I am a native of Springfield. Born, in fact, where I am still residing, on the south side. I was born even further south, which is over on Eighteenth Street which, at that time--it was a nurriJer of years ago, it's 66 going on 67 years ago-• was called the prairie. Being 67 years ago, that was in that fateful year of 1908, the year of what is commonly lglown as--quote-~race riot• W1quote. I think the riot, as I recall from reading thi~ program 1 s booklet on-what was the title of it? The Year_ of~? I think it really came to its height in August and I was born in September. My father always used to say, "Marga.ret, you 1 11 never be able to forget the year you were born. You were born during the race riot in Spring• field." I can renerrber nw mother telling about how worried she was about IrE being born, and nw father was out in the field with a gun guarding his horre. I guess this was just conm:m. All the men in this area--or any area in Springfield, it was so wide-spread--were doing this. But in any event, I survived and went on and was educated in the Catholic school system--at Saint Patrick's School, in fact--then went on to Sacred Heart Acadenw for:_ four years where I took a college preparatory and a busi• ness course corrbined. Then things didn't work out so that I could go to college and I irrlrrediately started to work. I had several jobs, one with the Illinois Bell Telephone Company and another with the Illinois Building and Loan league. Those were the only two, as I recall, at that tinE.

And then I left Springfield. I married and went East and worked in Washington, D.C., and New York for a nurriJer of years and then cane back to Springfield and took a job with the State at that time and stayed in

1 surnmer of Rage 1 The Springfield Race Riot of 1908, by James Krohe, Jr. is one of a series of historical publications, Bicentennial Studies in Sangam::>n History, -edited by Cullom Davis, published by the Sangamon CoW1ty Historical Society, Springfield, Illinois, 1973. [Ed.] Margaret M. Murm 2

Springfield when my father became ill. I worked in the House of Repre• sentatives first; I worked in the speaker's office. And I might say this was under a Republican administration, so I can't characteristically be called a Derrocrat or a Republican. I suppose at that ti.Ire I was rrore or less an Independent. However, nw family background was Derrocratic. And then eventually I worked in the governor's statehouse office and then eventually, at Governor Stevenson's request after he became governor, transferred over to the rransion to work directly for him.

Q. What year did you enter state gove:r'ml'ent?

A. Actually, I suppose it was about--after I came back from Washington, D.C.; it was not until 1943. I was in the Departrrent of Finance when I first came back, then the House of Representatives and the speaker's office. And then in 1948 when the Stevenson administration came in--I'm talking about the Departrrent of Finance and the House of Representatives, this was under the [I:wight H.] Green administration, imrediately preceding. I might say, too, that this was not a Republican-appointed job under that administration; I was a civil service employee. I took the tests and I was appointed from the list, grade-wise, and so forth. So nw whole tenure was civil service except when I worked for Adlai Stevenson and went over to the mansion to becorre a rrenber of the personal staff. We relinquished civil service status at that time. 'Ihey put us on an unactive list be• cause you were not allowed to be personally covered by civil service if you worked that closely or were that closely identified.

Q. Can you remenber your first glimpse of state politics as a child?

A. My father [Patrick J. Monaghan] was always--I guess he could be com• pared to what they call in the big cities the ward-healer. He was always in politics in this area, and he would be the one that the politicans would core see to line up the precincts for them. And then I had a cousin who was an orphan cousin by the nai!'E of Andy O'Neill whom my mother raised and he was raised just like our brother, and he was in politics. He was a Denocratic rrerrber of the legislature for two years under Governor Homer 1 s administration. I suppose this was really mv political baptism, was going around helping him campaigp. He had two counties, Morgan and Sangamon. He would be over in Morgan campaigning, and I would be going out with the candidates here to the various schools and the various reetings and the chicken dinners, and I would be making speeches for him here. So after he was elected, why, I served as his secretary, answered his mail and things of that sort. So, I think that nw first touch of politics, at that level.

Q. You said that there wasn't any political connection in getting a civil service job at that time?

A. No, none whatsoever. It was actually--it's what 's known as the Per• sonnel Code, currently. But at that time they had a civil service com• mission and they set the rules for the civil serVice applicants--how they should be placed, the placerrent of people who had passed the tests into state jobs. What you did was take the test and you were given a grade. And then they called on you grade-wise so that if you got a good grade, you got pretty much up at the top of the list and you got placed pretty promptly. Margaret M. Murm 3

This is what I did and I was placed in the Departrrent of Finance and I worked on the budget. Well actually, specifically, I worked on what was [called] 'Ihe Dollar Chart . This was a publication that was put out, it was a public docUTIEnt, and it was just like the pie-how the state pie was divided and the appropriations. With respect to the budget, this was done in the Departrrent of Finance, and that was one of my chores, working on that.

Q. What kind of man was Dwigpt Green?

A. I did not know Governor Green personally. He always seerred personable in passing. And of course I did not work directly with him; I worked in a code department, the Departrrent of Finance. But as far as [being] the governor went, he seemed to be a pretty good businessman, and I would say was well-liked as a governor. At that particular point in tirre I had no feelings one way or the other about who was governor or who was not governor, because up until that tirre they all had seerred pretty much the same to me. One governor was just like the next governor.

Q. What are your recollections of the 1948 ca.n:paign?

A. I was not directly connected with the 1948 ca.n:paign. What happened here is, I did not go aboard the Stevenson staff until they were ensconced :in Springfield. However, even though I was working for I.Might Green, I was pulling hard for Adlai Stevenson after reading what type of a ca.n:paign he made and reading and listening to some of his speeches . I was hoping he would becorre governor, so I was very happy when he did. Now, in civil service you did not get out and publicly campaign, but there was nothing in the civil service code that said you couldn 1 t have your own choices, and he was certainly nw choice from anyone who had come along so far.

Q. When did you first reet Governor Stevenson?

A. Well, it was in 1948, and I can't state the exact ronth. It was in 1948, as I say, after they had becorre ensconced in the statehouse and the mmsion. I was still in the Departm:mt of Finance but I had been loaned to the governor's office to work on sorre special project they had going. Actually, you'd have to know the relation of the governor's office and the finance office in the statehouse. The Department of Finance adjoined the governor's office so that there was just an open door that went through. Mrs. [Ann] Risse, who had been the office manager for about six governors, came in and asked the Director of Finance if I could be loaned out to them since they needed stenographic help. Sorreplace along the line, because of my civil serrtce rat:ing I suppose--I typed rapidly and took shorthand rapidly• I was loaned out to the governor's office and I was working in the governor's office when the Stevenson people came aboard. But I was just on loan and I was back in the typing section, in the typing pool.

Mrs. Risse carne back one day and she said, "You know, Adlai Stevenson has an office at the rransion. 11 And I said, "Yes, I had heard. 11 She said, ''Well, he is going to be over at the statehouse office on Wednesdays. Miss [Carol] Evans, his secretary that he brought down from Chicago with him, is going to stay at the mansion so he wants someone to dictate to when he comes over here. I would like for you to take his dictation. 11 I said, ''Well, I'm flattered, M3.rgaret M. Murm 4

and I'd be happy to if you think I can. 11 She said, ''Well, I lmow you can."

So, Wednesday when he c~ over, the following Wednesday, Mrs. Risse took me in and introduced :me to him. I rerrernber saying, "Now, Governor, this is my first offense with a governor. I hope you will remerrber it and treat rre accordingly," and he kind of laugped. He dictated beauti• fully. Of course very fast and very rapidly, but his inflection was such that his dictation was not difficult to rre. He would drop his voice at a period and pause for a comna, even thougp he didn't dictate punctu• ation at all. So, it worked out. And I did the transcription of the reams of dictation that he g;1ve :me and sent it over to the mansion--I gave it to Mrs. Risse, I presume she sent it over. 'lhe typing pool room was in the back of the statehouse office of the governor, and one of the girls answered the phone several days after I had sent the dictation over and she said, "It's for you, and it sounds like Governor Stevenson." I said, "Oh yeah, 11 thinking, you lmow, "Yeah, I' 11 bet. 11 She said, "Well, it sure sounds like him. 11 So I got on the phone and he said, "Mrs. Murm, this is Adlai Stevenson." I. thought, ''Well, it does sound like Governor , Stevenson. 11 After having had this session of dictation with him I was rather familiar with his voice by that tine. And I might say, during dictation and afterwards he was very pleasant and very sociable--just some• body that you could like irrlrrediately. He asked me about my backgrmmd, if I was local and so forth.

So in the telephone conversation he said, "I would like very much for you to transfer over to the mansion and to work for me. 11 And I said, "Oh, Governor, I'm very flattered and I'd love to. 11 And he said, ''Well, before you say yes, I want you to know it's a very difficult job. You will be working all hours, long hours, and I'm a difficult man to work for," and so forth. So I told him I'd be delighted to do it, and he said, "Well, I '11 call Mrs. Risse and have the transfer made. " So, that's how I landed over at the mansion.

Q. The question I like is, for soneone who has never net Adlai Stevenson, how would you describe him to ne?

A. How would I describe him? Well, you know, so rmny people said that he talked above their heads and they felt he was reserved, that they didn't unders.tand him. And I always said that if I could understand him, I always felt anybody could understand him. And I can't believe how anyone could ever feel that he was talking above their heads. Except for one thing. If - you were rreeting him for the first time, you might be a little apprehensive about it because he had this--well, I think you've probably heard him speak or heard records of his speeches. He had just sort of a crisp-like, very fast way of talking that might make you a little, shall I say, in awe of him. You might feel that you would never get to lmow him. This might be the first meeting. But if you talked to him for any length of time, this would soon go. Because you could talk about any subject. Or you could ask him for advice or for help, and he'd come througp as a very, very warm, understanding indi• vidual.

I think maybe it might just have been the voice that gave some people the Margaret M. Munn 5 impression he was beyond their scope. I don't think they were listening to the words as 111llch as the way he phrased it or his tone, or the way he--oh, just his general manner of speaking migtlt have given them this idea. But I don 1 t think that he tallced over anyone 1 s head if they listened to the words and tried to analyze what he was saying is what I'm trying to say. He did, I think everyone 1 s agreed, have a different type speak• ing voice than the normal public speaker or politician. And I think this is what intrigued so IIEnY people about listening to his speeches. It was the cri~pness of his tone, timing, and the way he uttered his words and his sentences. And frankly, he knew precisely what he was going to say next.

I lmow that so often when he was preparing the speeches--for instance, if he'd have a Labor Day appearance and speech, maybe the Director of Labor or a staff nember would submit drafts of paragraphs for him to incorporate, what the employnent situation was in Illinois and things of that sort . 'Ihey may have submitted a couple of short paragraphs on this particular subject, and I have seen him boil that down into a couple of sentences . Short sentences, too, and it rrade just as IID.lch if not more sense I He did have a way with words .

Q. How did he appear physically?

A. Always a bit harried-a man in a hurry. He was always more or less on the run. He just acted like he was keyed up and ready for any situa• tion, alive and alert. However, you did not get this impression when he dictated. In other words, he tallced fast, but you didn 1 t get the impres• sion that he was rushing you. It was just his way of thinking, and it came out that way.

Q. What were your duties as his secretary? 2 A. Well, Carol Evans and I worked closely together. Now, Carol Evans caxre down from Chicago with him; she had worked in his law firm with him in Chicago. She was not his secretary at that tine, as I understand, but she had worked for him in sOITEthing like a typing pool up there. He must have been impressed with her work as she was a very, very wonderful technician, had a very orderly mind. He asked her if she would like to cone to Springfield after he was elected and be his secretary. So she came down with him.

Now, she handled m:>st of his personal affairs, papers for income tax and things of that nature, and I handled roore of the adrninistra.tive duties of the office. But he dictated to us interchangeably and we doubled in any duties that needed to be done. If Carol wasn't there, I handled her desk and mine, whatever caxre along, and vice versa.

Q. How big was the mansion staff itself?3

2 Photograph in collateral material of Mrs. Munn, Governor Stevenson, Miss Evans • [Ed. ]

3staff photograph in collateral material. [Ed.] Margaret M. Munn 6

A. Well, during the period we 're talking about, there were Bill Blair, Carl McGowan, and Ed Day who were administrative assistants and were quartered at the rmnsion. And then later on Newton Minow--should I identifY these people for you? Bill Blair was subsequently appointed by John--President-Kennedy as Ambassador to Derrrn:lrk and then later Arrbassador to the Philippines. Carl McGowan was appointed and is still serving as a federal judge :in Washington. Ed Day was appointed post• mster gen~ral ill1der President Kennedy. And NewtonJIJiinow, wl;lo came J,at;~r as an administrative assistant, was John Kennedy's chief of the Federal Communications Commission. 4 'Ihat reminds ITE of that line that the Governor said when some one of the reporters asked him what he thought about . . . . Oh, and after the exodus in the presidential campaign in 1952 when the Governor went back to Chicagp to practice law--and of course this happened :in John Fitzgerald Kennedy's administration which was even later, after the Eisenhower years-• these boys, Blair, Day and Minow, were all practicing law with the Governor in Chicago. Che of the reporters asked what he thought about the President 's [Kennedy's] rifling his law firm. He replied he was just sorry he "had only one law firm to give to his country." So, that's what happened to his ad• minstrative assistants, for the IIJ)St part.

Now, he did have, while he was governor, administrative assistants in the statehouse office. Lawrence-Larry--Irvin and Don Hyndman were the admin• istratic assistants; they handled correspondence. Dan Walker, who is presently Governor Wa]Jcer, was [also] for a short time. Ross Randolph, who used to be an agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, was also an administra• tive assistant for a while. 'Ihere was one other and I can't think of his l"laaJE rigtlt offhand. I will. 5 But, there was a mansion staff and a separate statehouse staff.

Q. Was there any tire that there was difficulty in rurming two staffs like that?

A. Well, I know that there has been a lot of talk about this kind of an operation, and IIJ)St of the governors,, .. :in fact, did not have the second office. 'fue first thing that Governor Stratton did when he came in was to completely do away with the rmnsion office. But there was no great difficulty, staff-wise or otherwise. It worked fine for Governor Stevenson because he was alone so much. You see, he was down here by himself, and I think many photographs will show you how he worked late, very late hours. He worked very hard. He would core down early and work until midnight at his desk at the rmnsion. Well, he could not have done this without inter• ruption in the statehouse office. So I think it served his purpose beauti• fully. And it migpt have been, for this kind of man-because to mY knowledge

4When the word Governor is capitalized but does not preceed the name of another governor, it refers to Governor Stevenson, as Mrs. Munn was using the word to refer to Governor Stevenson specifically. [Ed. ]

5'Ihis administrative assistant was Dan Far.rin, also associated with the Federal Bureau of Investigation previously. [M.M.] Margaret M. Munn 7

the one other governor said to have had his main office at the mansion was Henry Horner, who was a bachelor, you see, and he was also alone. And it might have been for the sarre reason, with no family he wanted to work at hone, and it also served his purpose to have an office in the mansion.

Q. How IWch ti.ne did the Governor spend in Chicago, as far as office duties?

A. Well, not as much as you would imagine, seeing that he initially cane from Chicago. I think he was in Springfield rrore because he had a difficult legislative session on his hands down here in the four years that he was governor. A divided House and Senate, and it just behooved him to stay pretty ruch aboard here and look over the situation. However, the Chicago office served a purpose for conferences and meetings and appointments up in the northern area.

Q. What was a typical day like for the office?

A. For our day, or for his day? He was usually there when we got there around eigpt o'clock. He'd either be upstairs in the sunroom working or at his desk working. And the minute you 1 d get there--now, he dictated reams and reams. He did most of the dictating on mail addressed to him personally, an incredible arJPunt. Of course, rrost of the governors, I think, fa:rrred their correspondence out to the different assistants on a you-handle-this-and-you-handle-that basis, but they had a hard time of convincing the Governor that this was the thing to do because he wanted to personally handle all of the correspondence. He eventually found out that this was physically impossible. Garl McGowan and Bill Blair took over the parts that they could chandle, correspondence having to do with appointments, legislation, and so forth, but he still dictated a volume of correspondence he felt needed a personal reply.

And then he was very precise and particular about his calendar and that was one of mv duties. Bill Blair actually made his speaking appointrents for him and screened the people that he felt ought to come over to the rransion to see the Governor. He would say, "I've set up an appointment for so-and-so," or, "I've told so-and-so they could have their picture taken with him on such-and-such a tiiJE. 11 So one of mv jobs was keeping his desk calendar up to date, indicating at what tire this would happen or if at two o'clock in the afternoon he had to go out to the [State] Fairgrounds or had to go to one of the depart:rrents, noting it so that he would be alerted as to what his day would be like.

So, he would come down, and the very first thing, I'd see him core into the office and check his calendar to see what the day looked like and what things had been arranged for him. And he would work a full day. He never stopped. When he wasn't talking to people or a com:nittee wasn't calling on him or [he wasn't] going somewhere to make a speech, he was at his desk working. He was a very hard worker. But our day was a series of telephone calls, appointments, dictation, filing, and general office duties. It was hectic when the Governor was in town, of course.

j ______Margaret M. Murm 8

Q. What were the basic functions of an administrative aide? Did each of them have a different function?

A. Oh, yes. Now, Bill Blair was more PR [public relations], setting up the appointrrents, screening people, and I would say, handling his ti.Ire. Carl McGowan did more on the legal or legislative side in con• nection with the legislature and the bills, looking over and analyzing pending bills for him and telling him what the various rreasures involved. And Ed Day, I think, would be rore or less of what would be called--well, Carl was, too. Those two, particularly, served as legal or legislative assistant, also_. dealing with problems of ·the various departrrents of govern• rrent. In other words, they were aware of the applicable state statutes. Whenever a departrrent director would write over and want to know if he could legally do sorrething they'd check it out to see if it was something within:the province of the particular statutes governing that particular operation and so forth. They also advised the Governor on appointments to boards and commissions, or permanent appointments on inter-goverrunental commissions, committees and things of that sort. Strictly administrative work. His day was so full that he wouldn't have tine to do the research on these particular types of things . Newton Minow worked IIDre in the area of correspondence and proble~solving by correspondence.

Q. What were the duties of Jim Mulroy?

A. He was executive secretary, or should I say a general manager. Jim Mulroy was stationed at the statehouse. The statehouse office, of course, is always the center of the governor's operation, and by that I mean staffing and patronage matters and general public contacts. Jim Mulroy's long suit was publicity. And of course you lmow Jim Mulroy's background. He was one of the cilb reporters who broke the Leopold and Loeb murder case years ago in Chicago. He and another reporter, whose I1.8l1E I don't remember-• or ever lmew, for that rmtter--solved it together. But Jim Mulroy functioned in the capacity of politics, errployrrent and things of that nature, in addi• tion to doing what an executive secretary usually does in saying, "I don't think you ought to be saying this in your speeches," and things of that sort . He was sort of a counselor and rrediator also, I would say. And as I have said before, also business manager as far as the operation of the office was concerned, budgets, and so forth.

Q. What was it like when he [Jim Mulroy] was caugpt in the scandal, the racetrack stock?

A. Well, I don't lmow. I think that was very, very, very unfortunate. And I really don't lmow that I lmow anything about that first-hand. Actually, I do know that we were all very sad. But I do know, too, that the Governor had told all of his aides that the first tirre he found out that any one of them had acted in an unethical way, that would be it. He was very fond of Jim Mulroy, and as the books recount it, he just called him over and leveled with him and Mulroy was fired. I don't know what transpired. I'm not qualified to speak on that except for what I have read. And the story goes that, as you can .irmgine, that type of situation was handled on a very personal basis with Jim Mulroy being present. It wouldn't be sorrething that the Governor would call the staff in on. Very sirrply, as I have understood it, he just said what you migtlt expect he would say, "You should not have bougpt the stock." Margaret M. Munn 9

Q. What was Walter Schaefer like?

A. Cb., Judge Schaefer is very, very fine and always did a tremendous job. He and Governor Stevenson, I guess, were friends for years before, personal friends, and Wally was at the mansion. Well, I think Wally was there before Ed Day canE aboard. He did pretty much the SanE thing that Ed Day was brougpt in to do later when Judge Schaefer moved on.

Q. What was Ed Day like?

A. Ed Day was very bright and later went on, of course left us, to becorre director of insurance. 'Ihe Governor appointed him his director of inSurance. Very bright and very quick. And then from there, I presurre before-yes, before the Kennedy days, Ed Day went on to become general counsel of Prudential Insurance Company, you know. And then he left that job to become postmaster general under President Kennedy, as I recall. Now, I'm trying to fit the years in here. From 1948 through 1952, then Eisenhower was in in 1952 and then in 1956, and then John Kennedy canE in 196o. So see, Ed Day, Newton M:inow and Bill Blair, after they left Springfield they went with the Governor to practice law with him in Chicago, and then they were all carving out little niches for themselves in between the years of 1953 and 1960, in the seven-year period. When John Kennedy canE along in 1960, this is when they all took on these various federal appointments.

Q. What was Dick Nelson like?

A. Dick Nelson was, I would say. He was a good PR man. Well, he was associated with the National Young Democrats, I believe. He officed in the statehouse office, and I think Dick Nelson was the liason with the youth of the state for the Governor. I think he was the youngest member of the group, and because he had held an active office in the National Young DeiiDcrats, he knew any mmber of young people all throughout the states and he kept in contact with the young people. In addition to that, he handled matters concerning youth for the Governor, lobbied on youth matters, and adVised the Governor on such matters.

Q. What did Dan Walker do during the administration?

A. !:an Walker, as I recall, worked closely at the statehouse with Sherw-ood Dixon who was the lieutenant governor at that time. They worked on the "Little Hoover Report" and that went on for some ti.rre. 'Ihat was really a job of reorganizing the state government structure and getting at the ills of gove:r'Illlent. Wally Schaefer also did a lot of work on that report at one time.

Q. What about Sherwood Dixon, himself? What was he like?

A. Well now, in contrast to Governor Stevenson, Sherwood Dixon was, I would say, a politician. 'Ihe lieutenant governor spot in the state has always been pretty much the SanE as it is today, in fact. It doesn't overlap a lot with the governor's office. But I think it's different now under the new constitution. I don't think the lieutenant governor acts for the governor as much as he did previously while the governor is out of state. Am I right

-----·------·--·------··--·-··· Margaret M._ Murm 10 on that? No, see, the new constitution--it used to be that when the Governor was gone for any length of ti.Il'E, vacationing or out of state, Sherwood Dixon bec811E the acting governor. Then, also, he had duties assigned to him by the Governor and he had additional duties under the constitution at that time. But, he was a very, very likeable, very sedate type of man who took his office very seriously. Whatever duties he had, he perforrred them well. But as I say, we didn't have much con• tact with him, didn't see much of him, because there really was no over• lay between the gubernatorial duties and the lieutenant governor's duties. The Governor saw him often, of course.

Q. What was the mansion, itself, like?

A. Well, the mansion at that time was very beautiful. It had more or less been restored to its natural state. Even though it was-they had a lot of trouble with the drainage system, and a lot of trouble with the plunbing. It was old, of course, and always needed to have something done to it. I can rerember at one time the Stevenson boys were going to have a dance and those in charge of arrangerrents were very much concerned about the floors because they had not had any work done on them for so many years. And I can rerre:rrber that they even installed beams to hold up the floors, brace the floors for the dancing. But it was in it natural state, due to the efforts of Mrs. Ives who acted as the Governor's hostess, his sister from Bloomington. She was able to procure most of the period furniture, and they had some of this old furniture from the rransion in storage for years, like, Governor Yates 1 bed. Other historic furniture was loaned by individuals. Mrs. Ives brought that into the mansion and restored the mansion to a thing of beauty with this authentic antique furniture.

Q. Where was the Governor's office in the mansion?

A. In the baserent. You'd have to lmow the physical set-up. You come down the drive to the portico, and there 1s the state patrolnEn, the guards at the mansion at that time, and they had a little station directly across from the mansion door. As you go inside, to the right was Bill Blair 1 s office, to the left was the office which Carol Evans and I shared. And then from our office there was an inner door into the Governor's office. Then directly across the corridor, right next to Bill Blair on the west side of the hallway, was Carl McGowan 1 s office.

Q. What was the condition of the offices? How were they furnished?

A. Poorly. I can show you ~ picture taken at my desk and you can see that it was not posh at all.

Q. I read that Governor Stevenson put in the first library in the mansion. A._ That is right. It was a sunroom prior to that tinE. And he, of course,

6 TW-o photographs in collateral material: Mrs. Murm at her desk; Mrs • Munn and Miss Evans at their desks. [Ed. ] Margaret M. Murm 11 was an avid reader and he started bringing his own books down. Finally he just really set it up as a very, very beautiful small library. And then after that there were contributions made to it from various sources so that it did became a beautiful library.

Q. What were the Stevensons' sons like?

A. Well, of course they were not here too terribly often since they were all young and away at school at that tillE, but they adored their father and callE down to be with him whenever he was in town and it was convenient for all. He was a wonderful father; he loved each boy. 'Ihey all shared a lot in corrm::m. He use to like to trap-shoot, and the boys would go out with him to the Mather Gun Club. when they were here for a trap-shooting contest. And he'd go camping to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and take the boys with him. He and the boys really enjoyed those pack trips. He was a very marvelous father and loved the boys and they, in turn, adored him.

Q. I guess everyone's favorite is Artie. Could you tell us soiTE back• ground of the dog Artie?

A. Artie was, more formally, King Arthur. 7 The Governor at one time had, I think, three Dalmatians; there were King Arthur, Sir Iencelot and Merlin. In any event, he brougtlt Artie down with him, and of course, Artie was a popular character. Artie roarred the town; everybody knew him, and he just went everywhere to visit. He caused the Governor some slight errbarrassment because sorreone was always hauling him horre, thinking that he was lost. I often felt like saying that he had been found before he was lost I You know, he would be roaming in one of his natural places to roam and sorreone would get him by the collar and call the mansion saying, "He is lost but we have him in our house now and we '11 return him." He wasn't lost at all because he knew the town too well. He had special restaurants which would give him a bone when he called. I used to walk hOllE every now and then from the mansion, and he'd follow rre. I'd have to walk back and have them lock him up so he wouldn't follow TIE. He just roamed the town. (dog barks) He was a very lovable dog and spent half of his tiiTE under rqy desk because I'm a dog lover and he knew it. I'd get down in the m)Ining and there he 1 d be under rey desk waiting for me. That picture that you see there on the wall is by Cornell Capa, the Life magazine photographer. It is of Artie under rey desk with his tail sticking out. That's reprinted in the Noel Busch book [Adlai E. Stevenson of Illinois]. Busch wrote that people who waited in this little anteroom--this outer sanctum we called it, and the inter sancttnn was the Governor's office-- they would see that tail sticking out and, as Noel Busch put it, short• sig11ted people thought it was a speckled snake. And that's the picture.

Q. I think it was interesting when beforehand we talked about the accident Artie had and how you led in saving his life.

A. Yes. Artie was hit by a car on Fifth Street by the mansion gp.te. It was strange. I was working at rey desk and the Governor was out of town.

7Photograph of King Arthur in collateral rrn.terial. [Ed. ] Margaret M. Murm 12

I heard screeching brakes and the next thing I lmew, why, I heard Artie barking at the door, the front door of the mansion. 'Ibis was not unusual; when he'd come back from one of his jaunts he would bark and I would let him in. In he comes with his leg practially hanging by threads. He dropped in a pool of blood, and I called to the guard, Sergeant Allen, "Get the car out quick and put newspapers on the back seat. We have to get Artie to the vet quick." So we took him over to the vet, Dr. Garvert who was over at the Illini Clinic on Second Street . Dr. Garvert said he was hurt badly and he said he would let us know. So, he called the next morning and said that Artie's blood supply was bad-in other words, he wasn't getting any circulation in his foot and leg--and there was only one way to save him and that was to aJll)Utate the leg. I said, "Well gee, I can't tell you it is okay to do that. I'll have to get in touch with the Governor."

I lmew where the Governor was, so I called and told him about it. I told him I didn't feel I should be the one to tell the vet it was okay to aJll)Utate; in fact, I couldn't do it. 'Ihe Governor said he'd talk it over with the boys and he'd let rre know. Well, I didn't hear all that day, and the next morning when I arrived, I said to Bill Blair, "Has anyone heard from Dr. Garvert or from the Governor about Artie?" I saw Bill Blair and Carol Evans kind of quickly look at each other, and finally Bill said, ''Well, I hate to have to tell you this, but the Governor called rre last night . He didn't have the heart to tell you. He said he'd talked it over with the boys and they just couldn't see Artie as a three-legged dog. So, he told me to call Dr. Garvert and tell him to put Artie to sleep."

I was shocked, and I said, "Oh, no!" I immediately called Dr. Garvert and asked him if he had carried out the order. He said, "Not yet . " And I said, ''Well now, I lmow you have the order to put him to sleep, but would you wait for a little bit until I contact ITlf brother-in-law Dr. [James] Curmingham, who is a surgeon, to see if he can help you try and save Artie and then I will call you back." So I called mv brother-in-law and said, in effect, "Are you doing anything with respect to circulation that Dr. Garvert could use on Artie?" He lmew the story of Artie's accident, and I was crying, of course, and he said, ''Well yes, there is something new where we're bypass• ing and tying-off," or sorrething of the sort. I said, ''Would you mind aw• fully if I asked you to please call the vet and tell him what the technique is and maybe he can use it on Artie?" So he said no, he'd be glad to. So the upshot of the whole thing was that the two of them got together and Dr. Garvert used this new procedure and the operation was a success.

When the Governor cane back in a couple of days, why, I went in and--Artie was doing fine by that tirre, his leg had been saved. I went in and I said, "Governor, about Artie . . . " He thought that I was going to talk about his not letting me lmow about giving the order to put Artie to sleep, and he said, "Yes, Margaret, I hated to do it, but the boys decided they couldn't see Artie with only three legs." I said, 110h no, Governor, you don't under• stand." I said, "It's about Artie's leg and the operation." He said, ''What operation?" I told him, and he said, ''Where is he?" I said, "He's still at the vet's. " And he said, ''Well, let's go see him! " So we went, and Dr. Garvert had the caretaker go and get Artie. He came bounding out, bandaged leg for• gotten, jun:ped all over the Governor. It was quite a reunion. Margaret M. Murm 13

He was a running dog from then on. He was just fine, except the Governor told re after he went back to Libertyville that when it was very cold Artie would favor his bad leg by hitChing along now and then. But he"was eventually hit by a truck up on St. Mary's road in front of the house in Libertyville, after the Governor went back, and that was the end of Artie. But he was quite a Character, a lovable one!

Q. What was the Governor's relation with the corrmunity of Springfield?

A. Well, I think he took a very active interest in the community. For instance, he had season's tickets for the symphony orChestra. Anything civic, he . . .

END OF SIDE ONE

Q. Would you continue with talking about Springfield society and his social life in Springfield?

A. He had some very good friends here. 'Ihe [Don] Funks, of course. And the Masters, and the I..anphiers. 'Ihey visited back and forth. And in addi..,. tion to that he played tennis, and he and Bill Blair, I think, played in the Springfield Tennis Tournarrent out at Washington Park. Also, the Chamber of Corrmerce had what they'd call Plae Dae when they 1 d have gold and swim- ming and picnics , and so forth, and he always participated in that . Always . And things of that sort . I think he attended the Rotary Club . And I think every now and then he'd sneak out to a rrovie; he liked to go to rrovies every now and then. And he attended ball g;lllES. But for the most part when he was in Springfield-and then he'd go back many weekends to Libertyville because he had a beautiful honE there and old friends and neighbors like the Edison Dicks and the Herman Dunlap Smiths. He attended special dinner parties and other activities in that area and enjoyed it. But he also had mmy per• sonal friends in Springfield. He attended the First Presbyterian Church in Springfield.

Q. Did he ever have any problem3 with people in Springfield society being Republicans? Was he ever outcast by them?

A. No, I don't think so. Affairs s udh as the Beaux Arts Ball he would attend in an official capacity, crowning the queen or sonEthing, and no politics were involved. He did all of these things that fell within his line of duty as governor. I know that he did receive rrany invitations from local people that he just did not have the ti.In= to-he didn't really have the tine to spend socializing. He didn't have as much time as he would have liked to spend with friends. He was in dem9nd as a speaker throughout the state long before there was any ITEntion of the presidency, because he was suCh an excellent speaker. IJhe dinner circuit, and so forth. But yes, he entered into the conmuni ty 's social life, I would say, in a limited way due to the pressure of the office.

Q. Did his own divorce interfere in any way with the social life?

A. Well, I don't know about in the northern part of the state or with his own select friends. TI'lese were friends that they'd had for years; it mi[#lt I Margaret M. Munn 14 I have there a bit, I don't know. I wasn't aware of that. But he had I· a vast number of friends he had had for years, and he spent his tirre with them just as he did before the divorce. But here m Springfield, no. Mrs. Ives was here with him a great deal and any time that he needed to take soru;one with him, she was always available. She kept herself in readiness at Bloomington or Southern Pines, [North Carolina,] where their horre was, and she acted as his official hostess any tirre she was needed.

Q. What was Mrs. I ves like?

·A. Well, she adored her younger brother. She was very knowledgeable and very bright and lliterested in the history of the state, the mansion, and of the town. She was a rrember of the groups that were organized to restore the rransion. And I think this was one of the reasons that she was able to brllig [the rransion] up to the origllial--almJst back to its initial state-with these lovely antiques. It was beautifully done at that time. Later to be changed to rrodem decor, and now completely changed agp.in, I understand.

Q. You haven't been in the rransion since?

A. I have not. No, not since it has been rerrodeled.

Q. How was his relations with the local party? The Democrats?

A. Well, I never-I really don't know about that. The only thing that I felt [was] that I don't think that he was thought of as a star politician. I don't know that he considered himself a politician at all. Of course he had to be politically minded, because politics was the narre of the game, you know. But as far as being a politician, he was not like some governors I have observed who played politics all the way. I just don't think he was that kind of governor at all. He was rrore a statesman.

Q. What were his relations like with the press?

A. Very good, excellent. I think the press liked him iiTlllEnsely. Most of the press always seerred to really enjoy him. He was very open with them and they knew he had sorrething to say. He never tried to suppress anythllig, and he was very honest with them. And if there was a story to be given about sorrething, he wanted the truth to be told. So, he was very open with the press and I don't think they can ever--any rember of the press at that time, whether it be the UP [United Press] or AP [Associated Press] or any of the local representatives, will say the same thing, that whenever there was a question asked, if he had the answer, he would give the answer.

Q. Was the Chicago Tribune ever a real problem with the Governor?

A. Oh, I think Colonel McConnick played him down during his entire term. Even if he did a good job, the Tribune wouldn't admit it, don't you know. 'Ihey were always editorially critical and twisted everything he did to fit into their editorials. I think this went all the way down. I think they always slanted everything he did. I know that the local reporter for the Tribune at that time would have a different slant to a story in the Margaret M. Mum 15

Tribune than the account given by any of the other newspapers . In other words, he'd do an outstanding job on soiiEthing or make an exceptional appointment, everybody would be agreed it was good, but not Tribune.

Q. Did Bill Blair ever catch any jokes or anything since he was related to the McConnicks some way?

A. Well, I th1nk Bill Blair's relationship to the branch of the McCormick's you refer to is pretty far removed. I think Colonel McCormick was, maybe, his father's first cousin. I think I read that soiiEplace. But there was not a close affiliation between the Colonel and Bill, I can assure you.

Q. Who was Adlai Stevenson's favorite reporter?

A. Gee, I can't answer that. I don't 1mow that he played favorites. I rerember at the time there was Bob Howard and John Dreiske, and George Thiem. And many others, but those three narres core to me. I don't really think he had a favorite. His good friend for many years was Ed Lahey who wrote for the Chicagp Daily News--they were close.

Q. How much of a part did V. Y. Dallman play in the administration?

A. Well, he and Governor Stevenson were very friendly and V~ Y. DalJ..man, I think, was very personally fond of Adlai Stevenson and wrote him up in his paper--in his column, rather--quite often. I think the Governor had a high regprd, great respect, for V. Y. Dallman as a newspaperman. And as a personal friend.

Q. In Patricia Harris' book [Adlai: The Springfield Years], she talks about Johnson Kanady of the Chicago Tribune once trying to tell the Governor about a scandal that he heard in the background and the Governor sort of shrugged it off and Mr. Kanady was mad. Do you think there would be any truth to this story?

A. I doubt it very much if Johnson Kanady said so. Because here again is the echo of the Chicago Tribune. They, through their Springfield reporter, were always nit-picking at anything Governor Stevenson did.

Q. Another story Mrs. Harris tells is on Louis Ruppel of Collier's and a story he wrote on Illinois and the garr.bling houses and how Governor Stevenson wasn't doing his job . Do you reirember this at all?

A. I don't remember that at all. Actually, I would think that mybe you ought to talk to Bill Flanagm. Has his nane ever COIIE to your attention? Q. Once or twice.

A. Bill Flanagan was the head of the state 1 s information section and his publicity nan. Bill Flanagan represented him with the press, and if there had been anything of this sort, Bill Flanagm would have 1mow about it.

Q. We '11 go to a current topic now. What do you think about Patricia Harris' book? Margaret M. Munn 16

A. Well, I read througp it, and while I'm not an expert critic, a literary critic, I didn't think it was very factual. Do you lmow what I'm saying? I don't lmow what other comments you've had on the book, but there were rmny incidents related there of which I thought, ''What? When did this happen?" You lmow? So I really don't lmow what sources of inforrration she used; they might have been firsthand and I might not have been around at the particular time, but the book didn't strike me at .all as bemg fact-studded. I think a great portion of it was based on hearsay. I can't renenber her being around for a.nythmg but her reportorial duties, and not too frequently.

Q. What can you tell ne about the Governor's relation to Alger Hiss and the whole testifying before Congr-ess?

A. Well, as has been reported, I think here agp.in that Richard Nixon was the main pro:rroter of this, trying to make something out of nothing to d.1.scredit Adlai Stevenson, either for his, Nixon's, personal gain or for Eisenhower's benefit. But in any event, I think as Governor Stevenson said, and I hope I am quotmg him properly, that he did give testimony when called upon as anybody would give testi:rrony for someone with whom they had worked or had lmown. .And I think he gp.ve it in the sense not that Alger Hiss did this or did that, because he wasn't aware of what Alger Hiss had done during the particular period of time they were talk• mg about--he did not know him on a personal basis or for a long period of time. He spoke of Alg,c=r Hiss in the time slot that he knew him. 'Ihis was the testi:rrony that he gave that he felt the inportance of the jobs that had been assigned to Hiss would lead anyone to believe that he had been appropriately screened and could be trusted.

Q. Do you believe that his speaking m front of Congress hurt him in any way politically?

A. I don't lmow that it did. I'm not sure it would have such an effect, however. I think the Alger Hiss thing was mfortunate, because I lmow that Adlai Stevenson did this thlng in all good conscience and in all good faith. It was an incident typical of Richard Nixon's character assassination traits. What did Governor Stevenson say at that time, back in 1952, in connection with this incident? That Richard Nixon was a brash young nan. I don't have the rest of the quote handy; I can get it for you out of the 8books and papers of Adali Stevenson dating back to this 1952 incident. .And he said something to the effect that he shuddered to think that he [Nixon] would ever, ever be in high places where he'd have to make jud@rents, based on his performance in this particular instance.

Q. The Governor did quite a few things politically in the state of Illinois which angered some people, and this would include probably the State Police affair. What can you tell us about it?

8 u. • • a brash and patronizing young man • • • I hope and pray that his standards of jud@rent never prevail in our courts, or our public life at any level, let alone in exhalt positions of respect and responsibility." The Papers of Adlai E. Stevenson (Vol. IV), p. 167. Edited by Walter Johnson and Carol Evans . - Margaret M. Munn 17

A. In what way in the State Police affair?

Q. Well, how it was handled, any of the background.

A. Well you know, I just don't know what this is all about because of the fact that what he did--the State Police, at the time he took over as governor, were controlled by politics. 'Ihe Governor hastily concluded that something had to be done to correct this and he did just that--took the State Police out of politics and put them under the merit system. 'Ihis system stillexists and has worked well. He not only did that, but he was also probably the prime instrument in getting m:>re state e:rrployees covered under civil service so that there would not be this tremendous exodus from gove~nt every time there was a change in administration. And now, I think, the patronage jobs are really in the minority. More and more positions in state service are getting covered each yea:r under the personnel code, "Which is comparable to the old civil service.

Q. What was some of the reasoning behind why he had such a ha:rd time with the state legislature?

A. Well, it's just a case of having a Republican controlled House, I think, and they just won't work with a governor of the opposite party. I think we see it in the current administration. 'Ihis is just typical, this goes on all the tinE. I don't think Governor Stevenson had it any worse than any other governor has it . Whenever you have a divided legis• lature you have this. It is also possible to have a House and Senate of your own party and still have grave differences of opinion. It's just the way the establishment works.

Q. How much of a help was William Conners in the Senate for the Denncrats?

A. Bot~ as they called him, Botchy Conners. Well, he was forceful and he had to be reckoned with at all tirnes. I don't think that Governar Stevenson had any trouble with him. I think that Botchy had things his own way in the Senate and he would have the last word. But he was enough of a politician that he knew, too, that you have to please governors and members of the opposition party--to get votes. So he did make sorre con• cessions, but he, on the whole, was pretty much of an operator.

Q. What was his Republican opponent 'Iho:rrpson like? Wallace 'Iho:rrpson?

A. Well, I think Wallace 'Ihornpson was another one that, as I recall-• you know this has been, what? Twenty-three years ago? 'Ihat 's a lpng time. As I recall, I think Wallace 'Iho:rrpson was another one who had sort of picked up this Alger Hiss thing. Not Alger Hiss per se, but also sornething about sorre bills that Governor Stevenson was sponsoring, were administration-sponsored. And as I recall, Wallace Thompson was typically Republican and the only thing he could find wrong with the bills were they had what he called corrm.mistic tendencies or sornething of the sort. You find this all the tirre. When they can't find anything else, see, they run for the communist label.

Q. What was the fight like over the loyalty oath bill that the Governor vetoed? Margaret M. Munn 18

A. Now, I don't reiiErrber too much about that, frankly, but I do rerrerrber it happening. I don't know that even in mv reading in past years I have read on that. Where is it written up? Is it written up in one of the books about Stevenson or one of the books that he wrote himself? I must look that up. I do know that there was a big to-do about the loyalty oath, but I think that has come up many ti.I"!Es in many years and I think there always have been the sa.rre argummts about loyalty oaths. Am I rigpt?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes. It 's always a very, very moot question, and I don't think Governor Stevenson had any more difficulty with it than anyone else.

Q. What was Paul Powell like?

A. Well, I don't think Paul Powell was very found of Adlai Stevenson or any of the Stevenson people. Paul Powell was just--you probably never saw him, did you?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, Paul Powell was just a breed unto himself. I mean, he was just--well, an out and out political operator, as it later turned out. Of course, I don't think anybody lmew what Paul Powell was up to. But he was very homespun and, because of his horrespun air and his very folksy rnarmer, he got himself elected. And I don't think anybody knew that he was building himself a neat little fortune on the side. This carre as quite a surprise. But I think he--I don't think Adlai Stevenson and he hit it off too well, because they were complete opposites. Adlai Steven• son was-just as Paul Powell was honespun and folksy, Adlai Stevenson was just as folksy and as horespun, but he had a little class about him, a little polish about him, was very erudite. Whereas Paul Powell was pro• bably very political-minded and made the most out of politics, Adlai Stevenson was not polltically--Adlai Stevenson was more of a statesman. Paul Powell tmdoubtedly resented the fact that Adlai Stevenson had states• rranship. He was working all the tire, really, for a better government, while other politicians were using the gpvemrnent for their own purposes.

There would have been nothing that would have pleased the Governor more than for him to have been lef't alone, and I'm sure he would have been re-elected for a second term. And this is what he wanted to do, because he felt he needed to finish the job he had started. What he had done for career service, what he had done for merit system in the State Police, what he was doing. . . • At that tine, when he took over the reins of government, the rental institutions in Illinois were, in the forty-eight states at that time, way down at the end of the totem pole . fue Menninger Clinic was the largest mental health clinic in the country at the time, and Dr. Menninger and several other doctors ca.rre out to Illinois after Stevenson had been governor for about two and a half years and appraised the mental hospitals. They reported that Illinois had risen, in as far as treatiiEnt and services were concerned, to fourth or fif'th in the forty• eight states, under his rule. 'Ihis was one of the things that was of vital interest to him, was improving the mental institutions and the penal system Margaret M. Munn 19

in Illinois. And he worked hard at it. And we ca.me up to maybe fourth or fifth in ratings of nental health institutions nnder Governor Stevenson's administration.

And he wanted to go on with this work particularly. I am sure he felt ~nat if he ·could do this much in less than four years, what improvements could be :rrad.e :iil four m:::>re years. He could have rmde Illinois one of the top states in the nation in so far as helping other people. And I think that he would have done this if he had had another four years . I think he had just gotten started, just scratched the surface, when they yanked him out and interrupted his work with the presidential issue.

Q. Who were sone of the other allies in the General Assenb ly when the Governor needed help?

A. Well, of course Dick Daley was there at the time, wasn't he? I think Dick Daley finally was, let's see, the Governor's ....

Q. Director of Revenue.

A. Director of Revenue. Yes. But Dick Daley always had very close ties with the legislature, and he acted as liason for the Governor with the legislature as I recall. He was very. astute about legislative matters and the workings of the legislature and adept at handling the legislature.

Q. Was the Governor often visited by the Chicago delegation?

A. Well you see, m:::>st of these politicians saw Jim Mulroy at the state• house office to talk over their problem. I think this was another of the reasons why the Governor wanted to work in the rmnsion, because he would just as soon not have to do the things that were required if you were in the statehouse, and that is have a constant flow of politicians coming to your office. He would not have accomplished nearly as much if all his ti.me had been spent in the statehouse office. And frankly, there really isn't any necessity for it. You are there to run the state's business, and he could do that better by being able to concentrate at the mansion. I think it's only fair that he have his office at the rmnsion the way he wanted it. And I'm glad he had that office. It would also have been hectic for us at the statehouse.

But Jim Mulroy and Larry Irvin, who worked patronage :matters for him and actually did job dispensing for him and so forth, took good care of most of that over in the accessible office in the statehouse. '!hey handled menbers of the legislature. If there was something, they had a bill or sozrething of import that they felt that the Governor should lmow about or discuss, then of course they'd call the mansion and set up an appointment for the parties to come to the mansion to see him.

Q. '!he Governor had probably one of the finest cross sections of men in his cabinet. What can you tell me about Dr. Cross, the director of public health?

A. Well, Roland Cross had been with public health in the State service for many years when the Governor came in. He was not, therefore, an appointment Margaret M. Munn 20 of the Governor, of Governor Stevenson. But the Governor recognized that he was a dedicated public official, knew public health, and kept him on the job. And I think he did a very creditable job for Steven• son, the sa.rre as he had always done in years before.

Q. What about Roy Yung, head of the Depart:rrent of Agriculture?

A. Well, I think Roy Yung, before he carre to the cabinet, was a farm advisor and had a good background in the agricultural field. And I think that he turned out to be an excellent director. I don't know too much about his background, Steve, really, but I do know that the Governor seemed to be very pleased with him and felt at the tilre he appointed him that he had selected the best man for the job .

Q. So you think he was unfairly criticized by the press for the Horsereat Scandal and the Sally Rand Affair?

A. Oh, absolutely. I think that if there had been anything of real weigpt there, any personal involverrent, knowing Adlai Stevenson, there'd been something done about Roy Yung.

Q. What do you think were the rrajor accomplishi!Ents of the Stevenson administration?

A. Well, I think that-just better governiJEnt all the way. I think that he would have no foolishness in goverrunent. lliere was just no foolishness in government at any level. You did things the way they were supposed to be done and did them his way--economically! Well, for instance, one thing he did was take a personal interest in appro• priations and expenditures. And this certainly is one of the basics of good governiiEnt, because you can't have a good government by spend• ing rore than you take in. And he was conscious of that, as he was in his own life. He was very budget-minded himself. Andhe practiced this in connection with the state's business. -

He would approve appropriation bills for the different directors as had been requested, and when they passed the legislature he had a policy, he would tell each director--and this was more or less in the nature of a demand--that he expected them to do as he would do with the mansion and governor's office appropriations. In other words, lapse or turn back 10 percent of the amount appropriated for the biennium. He was asking them to do the sarre thing. In other words, he was saying to his cabinet., you can live on--it's just like putting money in the bank if you don't spend your whole paycheck, put 10 percent away and save it.

This was he idea. And he not only--he really did it himself! In other words, he practiced what he preached. I kept the mansion books, and toward and end of a bienni~-that's when we had a biennial budget-- toward the end of the biennium, I got a note from him asking me for a report as to the condition of the mansion budget. And if it looked like, for instance, on the food account, we weren.t-t going to be able to have enougp money to lapse 10 percent of the appropriation, he would send orders to the housekeeper and to Mrs. Ives to not arrange any more special luncheons or dinners until the end of the bienniumJas we couldn't afford it. Margaret M. Murm 21

Q. Were the stories true about him go:ing around turn:ing off lights like Lyndon Johnson used to do?

A. Couplet ely true. Absolutely true. As I say, he practiced what he preached. He was not a stingy man in any sense of the word, but he did watch expenditures and loathed extravagance of any natill"e. Q. About how many people were employed :in the mansion itself?9

A. Well, let's see. For the office staff there would be two, four, six-Carol and nwself, Bill and Carl, Ed Day, and Newt, that would be six. Then there would be a couple of girls, stenos for the assistants. I used to do the secretarial work for Bill Blair because I worked on the appointment calendar and Bill handled the Governor's appointments. We worked together on letters, setting up dates for speeches and ap• pearances. 'Ihey 'd have two butlers, and two maids, Gertie the cook, a housekeeper, and a driver for the Governor. That adds up to a staff of fifteen. ,And maybe a gardener; not a full time gardener, but an employee from the conservation departrent as a yardman. And then there were round-the-clock state patroliren assigned as guards.

Q. And at the time only the Governor and Bill Blair, m:>stly, lived in the rra.nsion?

A. That's right.

Q. It was interesting when beforehand we talked about Bill Blair's background and how you were sort of worried about him coming in. Can you tell us soreth:ing about that?

A. Well, Bill-of course I didn't know anything about Bill. All these people who came down with the Governor from Chicago knew Bill. Bill was a menber of the Chicago first family of William McCormick Blair, and Bill's grandnl)ther was a Bowen, from the Bowen family, the Bowen High School, and so forth. So Bill came from adistinqui,,shed family. They were telling me about him, and that the Governor was just delighted that he had been able to talk him into coming down to work for him. And I thought, "Ch, mv, 11 you know? We were real busy at the time and the Governor said, "Bill Blair, 11 and I said to Carol, "VJho 's Bill Blair?" She told Ire who he was and nw coll1!TEnt was, "I don't care who his family is, I just hope he can help us get on top of this mountain of work. " We did have a backlog, even though we worked long hours.

Bill Blair carne down and of course he just established himself immediately. He was just " very capable in addition to being a very, very nice rra.n. He did a terrific job for the Governor and the Governor relied on him heavily. And we all did. And he was just one of the mainstays of the mansion the way things turned out. So it's just a little strange how these things do work out . But because of his station in life, I guess, I had the impression that ma.ybe he wouldn't be a worker, but he worked. He worked hard. He worked hard and always got the job done.

9 staff Christmas Party photograph in collateral material. [Ed.]

...... ______, __ , _____ - Margpret M. Munn 22

Q. In 'that group of people he had visit him, like Eunice Kennedy, did that bring a certain air to the mansion?

A. Well, I suppose so. Both Bill and the Governor attracted people in all walks of life. I can rerrember Lily Pons, I think) being there. Eunice Kennedy, Sarge Shriver, and of course his own select friends, Jane Dick and Edison Dick, her husband, from Chicago were frequent visitors. And he had a lot of--we had a guest book at the mansion. Fact is, I suggested it. I can't recall too many names,now, but it was filled with notables. He had a lot of very, very special friends who were irrportant people. Like, long before he went to the United Nations, you lmow, he was very active in the framing of the United Nations Charter, and so forth, years ago. So Ralph Bunch and Trygve Lie and other people on the United Nations level were his personal friends . So these people visited him strictly on a personal basis, for no other reason than being personal friends.

Q. Througp all those years, who would you have to say was your favorite person you met by working at the governor's mansion?

A. You mean staff-wise or just . . .

Q. Well, staff, and then as far as the guests in the mansion.

A. Well, I think Bill Blair stands out for me as we became friends immediately and have kept in touch all througp the years . Fact of the matter is, after he came to work with us, Bill was the one that I always went to if I had a problem in connection with the work or anything else. Bill would be the one to help, I lmew that . The other assistants, including Carl arid Newt, were also very OOll:pful. But it was sort of strange that Bill would be one of the last ones to arrive and he'd be the one who would kind of keep things moving. Bill was a diplomat, but had a very easy manner, which is why, I'm sure, the Governor relied on him so heavily and had him go with him on his world trips. I have, I think, a post card or a letter from the Governor from one of their trips in which the Governor said, "As usual, Bill keeps everything lll)ving and keeps me in tow--gets rre to the place I'm supposed to be at the rig,ht time." Bill just had a lmack for doing this; he 1 s an organizer.

Q. Who was your favorite guest to the mansion?

A. Well, I think it would be Mrs. Dick, Jane Dick. She was just a deligpt. We were always pleased to see her corre, because she was such a lady. And such a loyal friend to the Governor.

Q. A while back you were talking about the heavy work load of the Governor? What was his day like as far as . . .

A. Well, as I say, he would get down very early. He'd eat his break• fast and he'd core running down the steps. I think he would read the newspapers during breakfast, or before. Then he would come i.mnEdiately1 look at his schedule to see if he had tire to dictate. He never wasted any time; you never saw him just sitting around wasting time. He was always doing something. If there was enougp time before his first Margaret M. Munn 23

appointment, he'd dictate either to Carol or me. And then if he'd have to leave--he'd get so much of the dictation out-he 'd have to go someplace to keep an appointment, he'd come back and he'd size up his schedule agp.in. If there wasn't enough t~ to dictate, he would write out some instructions or letters to be typed. He was always handwriting. He always had one of the legal-size, yellow, lined tablets on his desk. Always wrote with a lead pencil, yellow pencil. And he'd write copious anounts, just--he'd be writing on a speech or he'd be writing on some sort of a recommendation he wanted to mlke to a department. He was just gping all the tine, his mind was just forever active. I have even ridden up to Chicago in the plane with him so that he could finish his dictation and returned by plane inrnediately so that I could transcribe it in Springfield.

Q. Did he ever miss lunch, or . . .

A. He ate lunch. He never would take a lot of ti:rre for lunch. If there were guests, of course he'd eat upstairs, or if the Ives were there, he would go upstairs. But for the most part he liked to have his lunch served at the conference table in his office and then he'd have Bill and Carl join him. And of course several t:lrres Carol and I joined him, if the boys weren't available, just so he wouldn't have to eat alone. Which we always [email protected] enjoyed, of course.

Q. When a problem arose, sore people who are critics sometimes said Adlai Stevenson brushed off problems occasionally. You hear this from people like Johnson Kanady who was a critic.

A. Oh yes.

Q. Was the Governor really that way?

A. .About handling prob le:rre? No.

Q. Or was it just that he was too busy?

A. Well, I think he took problems in stride. I never knew him to brush aside a problem. He was human; like the rest of us, he migpt have taken a couple of days to think it over, because SOIJE things are hard to resolve. But I don't think he made rash jud~nts, and I think this is one of the reasons why people, some critics, say that they thought he was indecisive. I didn't think of him as being indecisive. I knew him to ponder questions and mybe take a little longer than average to come to a conclusion, but if people were waiting for an answer, I don't think he stalled or was unable to make up his mind.

Q. The scandals, how did that effect him personally? Did he ever feel like, you know, it was a failure upon him or ...

A. No. He did something rigpt away after he heard about them. Really and truly, he had what? The way things worked out on Jim Mulroy's stock-• everybody in the state about that tire had sore of that stock, as it worked out later. Jim Mulroy was one of many; there were others in both political parties who bought the stock. So actually, that was maybe blown up all out of proportion, higply exagerated. And then the Horsemeat Scandal, Margaret M. Munn 24 the Governor fired the chief offenders--if it was offenders, I can't rerrenber how rrany-in the agricultural departrrent. So they weren't, shall we say, scandals of huge proportions. I think he dealt with them very emphatically and very promptly and got sonething done about them. He did the firing, and he dismissed Jim Mulroy. I think that this kind of a think can happen in any administration and it's how you handle it that really makes the margin of difference. And there were firings here in both instances. Those are the only two scandals I know about and, as I have said, they were not scandals of any major proportion. Not a Watergate, mind you.

Q. Do you think sornetirres he was too far advanced for the state, or do you think he could have made it up in a second term, like in civil rights and mining safety?

A. Oh rcya yes. I think if he had had another four years. Are you saying, in effect, did I think that in the first term he was dreaming? I think he was just-now this was it, see, he thought things out. I think he had just foi'I1'Dllated his plan of action. And maybe some people say, ''Well, he didn't accomplish a lot." Well, he did. He accomplished a gr>eat deal in his first administration, and he had terrific plans for ·.the second._ And I think this was the groeat disappointrent, thaf--he --was- pUlled away• and not permitted to try for a second term, which he would have loved, to complete his program.

Q. In 1952 he began the year running for governor, then he rnet Harry Truman in January. Can you rerrernber back? The Truman visit and some of the background of that?

A. Well, I do rerrerrber Harry Truma.n calling one day, or his secretary calling and saying, "This is -the White House. President Truman calling Governor Stevenson." And I said, "Just a moment~- please," and I was getting ready to buzz him when all of a sudden I heard soiiEbody say, "Hello. Hello . " And I said, "Hello, " and I knew it wasn't the Governor, see, and I said, "Who is this?" And he said, "'Ihis is Harry Truman. " And I said, "01, just a moment , J.Vlr>. President . " I put him on hold and I buzzed the Governor and I said, "President Truma.n is calling. In fact, no one is called for him, he 's on the line. " And he was right there, he got right on the line. I always thought that was a funny and unusual happer.Ung.

But, oh, in those hectic days--everything was so hectic in those beginning days. I take it you're talking about the beginning of the presidential campaign, the selection, and so forth. 'Ihat was unfortunate, not only in the way it turned out, but it was unfortunate that whoever had this dream of selecting him or draf't1ng him-really, if they had only known what they were doing to him. They weren't doing anything for him. I wish they would have respected his wishes. I don't know how he could have made it any IIDre definite that it was his wish to stay where he was.

Q. What was his feelings when the Tirne ma.gazine article ca.rre out? A. Now, which one is that? Margpret M. Munn 25

Q. '!he one that cane out in the begirming of the year, January or February. (papers rustling) I believe that's the one there.

A. 'Ihis is probably it rigpt here. "Investing and Inheritance in Politics." Well, he was--you lmow, this is a strange thing about the Governor, I think. At least, these are rey impressions; sorrebody else might disagree with re. Now, this was January 8, 1952. But, he .•. actually, he couldn't believe a lot of these things that were printed about him. He was rather dismayed about them. For eX81Tlple, one tine when I went around campaigning, it was in New Orleans, they interviewed IIE about what sort of a boss he was . And he happened to be reading that, I think it was in the New Orleans Item newspaper, when I went in to see him--he buzzed for me--and he was just bewildered. I had said some complimentary things about him. He looked at rre and he said, "Are you sure you were talking about rre?" I think he really rreant it.

And he was the same way about other news articles. He'd read all of these things, you lmow, and be a bit enbarrassed if there were nice things said about him. He was really and truly rather and odd make-up of an individual. But he was a very meek and m::>dest man, despite all of this. . . . He was also thin-skirmed and never became inured to criticism. I don't lmow, the way they protrayed him somet:irres--I lmow that he would read critics in utter disbelief that anyone could write such untruths~ He didn't seem to me to be as they wrote, either. He was soreone that I could sit down with and talk to about everyday, corrm:mplace things and he would have the answers.

Q. What were the beginning days of the Governor's campaign for re• election like? Did he do anything special to start the election campaign? Like forming a committee, or anything?

A. You rean before he was mentioned for the presidency?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, I guess no, except that the same format would have applied as had worked so successfully for him in 1948 and got him what

END OF TAPE

Q. last t:i.rre you were talking about the beginnings of the Governor's reelection Caiiq:laign. What can you tell rre about that?

A. Well, let's see. I think I started to explain that the overall plan was for the continuation of the Governor's first-term program, of course with other additions that might have corre up in the ensuing four years to make the already successful program IIDre corrplete. You have to understand the problems. When he took office in 1948 he was faced with a deteriorating road system; most of the highways were broken down. You weren't around,

~~------Margaret M. Munn 26 you don 1 t remember them at that point. But, in the four years that he was in, he did nruch in this area but there was still a lot to be done because there were about three thousand miles of roads involved.

He did a magnificent job in upgrading and weeding out in the welfare system in Illinois. It had been more or less of a political toy.

He brought the overcrowded, understaffed and, again, patronage-ladened mental health institutions up to the point--well, then he went in in 1948, we were down at the bottom of the totem pole in all of the states. Then at the time he was up for reelection it had one of the highest ratings of any of the states. He had done this through weeding out, moving out senile people in the institutions, not mentally ill, put there by politicians. Years before, anybody who had a senile parent and didn 1 t want them around, all they would have to do was go to a ward-healer who was able to get them into the institution to be supported at state expense. There was no charge for this service on the basis that they were mentally ill. Well, he weeded all these so-called "patients" out and got them back into the community, or with their families. The patronage employees were replaced by professional people and the institutions were run like hospitals.

In addition to that, he initiated and got through the legislature a bill covering a payment plan for such treatment, on the theory that if you are able to pay for your own care and treatrrent, you should pay and relieve the public burden. This is the program that I joined after the Governor left Springfield and with which I am still associated, The Patient Pay Plan. It has brought in millions of dollars for the state and no one really has been hurt by it because it just means that you pay if you are able.

Mrs. Van der Vries, who was then the woman dean of the House, was one of the prime instigators of this piece of legislation. I think one of the reasons for the institution of this program was the case of a farmer who had been a patient at Jacksonville State Hospital, I believe, died in the state hospital after being confined there for years at state expense--because there was nothing on the books then that said they had to pay--he had a fabulous estate, something like eight hundred thousand dollars that went to his relatives. Well, somebody got the idea, and good thinking, I would say, that here was a man instead of being there at state expense, at the taxpayers 1 expense, he should have paid for his own care. So this is how The Patient Payment Plan program was born in the Stevenson administration.

My job is chief of the Hearings and Appeals, a branch of the Legal Service Division of the Department of Mental Health. We hold hearings, my Hear• ings Referees hold hearings for any patient who is charged for treatment and maintenance--! mean a patient with assets--who claims inability to pay. There is also a second part of the program, if the patient has no assets, then some responsible relatives like the wife or the husband, or the parents of minor children, are responsible for same payment if their financial circumstances warrant. Well, our job, is to, if they request a Margaret M. Munn 27 hearing, examine and see if they should have been charged, or have the ability to pay. So, that's that part of it.

In the sarre four years that Governor Stevenson was doing this, he also doubled aid to schools. It had been less per capita than any other state prior to his coming into office. And I could on and on. He took the state police, took them out of a patronage-ridden system into a merit system, which has worked very well. He did the same thing for general State employment by putting many, ma.'1Y rrore classifications into civil service. And he cracked down on vice and gambling and in• vestigated and cut padded payrolls. And finally he insisted that all departments lapse 10 percent of the appropriations that were budgeted for their departrrent. He did this with the Ill311sion and his statehouse budgets. This was his belief, that no matter how much money you made or got that you ought to be able to save a certain portion of it, not spend it at all. As he used to explain, the lapsing of a percentage of an appropriation-by lapsing I mean you stay within 10 percent of whatever you get and turn it back in to general revenue--that was a savings, like we would save in our own budget. Because he firmly believed that you shouldn't spend every• thing that you earned, you saved part of it. So, in view of this, I can well understand his feeling of wanting another four year term. In his own words, and may I quote this? "I could not in honor seek the nomination for President while asking the people of Illinois to reelect rre as their governor." He added, "I have no ambition to be President. lliat nobody will believe, but it is the truth."lO And you can depend on that, because I think over and above every other quality or characteristic, he had a very, very ingr'ained honesty about him in every• thing he did. You could believe him. Even when he campaigned, his was not a campaign of-as politicians are so inclined to do-promising "pie• in-the-sky. tt He just would not promise anything. Because many of these things that they promise they cannot give, so he was honest about If they'd ask him something, he would. say he would try but no promise. So that, I think, was the overall plan for reelections.

However, the mansion staff would not be involved in the reelection; this was handled at an outside office. Oh, we might by virtue of telegrams or answering letters be involved, but the nucleus or the pivotal point of the reelection would not have been at the mansion. The business of getting the reelection campaign underway was being done in Chicago by, I presume, the same committee as in the 1948 election. But of course, it [the reelec• tion campaign] was sidetracked by the presidential thing, whatever did coma out of it, I don't . think there was any plan finalized or anything of the sort, because all the tirre this other thing was building, don 1 t you see.

10The book from which Governor Stevenson 1 s words were quoted could not be found at the time of review. Its identity, therefore, is unknown. [Ed. J Margaret M. Mlll111 28

Now, I don't lmow anything else to tell you on that. As I say, I was not in on the 1948 election, so I don't really know what type of a plan they would have for the reelection. 'Ihe only thing I know is that the Governor did have some overall plan in mind to elaborate on his first four years. But he was not given the time to complete it or go through with it because the business of the presidential campaign happened too fast.

Q. During this time period, did the members of the press and other individuals bother the Governor about the presidential nomination? And what was usually the Governor's reaction to things of that s9rt?

A. Well, I think "bother" would be putting it m1Jldly. 'Ihey just descended on us. Honestly, it was like a swarm of bees from the time the ground swell started in January until the April statement when he tried to set the record straight that he was not interested, and then it kind of simmered down after that. He kept insisting that being governor was the only thing he wanted to do when they--what could he tell them when they asked for interviews? He believed in this one thing; there was only one thing that he wanted to do and he was only interested in one job, Governor of Illinois!

But, of course, the press had their job to do and they were assigned. And they really came in droves. As I think one reporter said one time, there were so many of them that they were standing around in the halls interviewing each other. I think previously someone also said. . We used to see, oh, a correspondent on a national sacle, we never did see when he was governor unless it was a special story of some sort that involved the national scene, but we saw all the correspondents and all the wire service people from around the state. And.·· maybe we'd see one or more a week who would drop in, you know, to see what the scoop was; they really got their stories from Bill Flanagan over in the press office in the statehouse, so we weren't too much bothered with them. But then after January, it was more than a dozen a day. 'Ihey were around out in the mansion yard, and they were all over.

And of course we felt this, too, by the way of increased phone calls and telegrams and letters. I think it was all--I think I read in one of the Stevenson books that so:rreone said that after January letters jumped from a hundred a week to three hundred a day and there were two or three tele• phone calls a minute. Now, those sound like exaggerated statistics and I'm not sure they're accurate, but it was hectic. And from my memory of some of the days and nights, I'm inclined to believe them, frankly, because it was just utter chaos. Unless you had kept a diary--and of course, there was no time to keep diaries. I just can't believe it now.

I haven't stopped to think about it too much during the years, but now that this is coming up it's bringing a reawakening. And as I go back, I think of some of those days and the telephone calls and the mail-I don't mean mail per se, regarding the presidency, I just mean that people were writing to him because his name had become oore or less a household word. 'Ihere were pleas for mney, there were pleas for State jobs, and Margaret M. Munn 29 marriage proposals! 'Ihey just seemed to nrultiply in every area--not particularly because of the campaign, but just on every level the mail never stopped. And it all had to be answered, no matter what it was about.

Q. Was there any standard reply by the Governor to any inquires of his running for presidency or . . • A. Yes. Well, I think a good case in point--now, this is right in line with what the press did. Charlie Whalen was the representative of the AP in Springfield, and this is a little thing I dug out of my papers. It is on Executive Iepartment memorandum paper, and it's my note to the Governor. "Governor, Charlie Whalen of the AP called-• will be calling back--wants a comment from you on the article on the front page of today' s Journal by Nagle of Missouri regarding the presidency." And,. I believe 1'/h:>. Nagle was the state democratic chair• man. This was, incidentally, in late January or early February. The Governor's handwritten note underneath my typewritten note says--and this is what he intended for me to call Charlie Whalen back and tell him. He didn't say, "Call him and say, 11 that was :irrplied; I knew that this is what he intended for me to do. This is how he answered: "I'm very much flatte!"Eld by Mr. Nagle's confidence. But Governor of Illinois, as I have said before, is a big enough job for me and then some. 11 So to my way of thinking, he was very much in earnest about this. He just felt very strongly that he had committed himself to a reelection campaign and that he could not very well run for another job at the same t:i.m.e, and besides that his heart was in his job. He really and truly wanted to stay in Illinois. He used to say, offhand, after it was all over with, "Why didn't they let me alone. I was prefectly happy doing what I was doing. 11 So contrary to anyone who might feel that he really sought this thing, it was not so.

Q. How did the staff take this whole matter? A. How did the staff feel? Well, I can only speak for myself. With all of this going on we were delighted to be working for him and working so closely with him, but we were this even before all of this came about, because we admired him so much. But I think personally that I was prayerfully hoping that nothing would develop •. And I felt pretty much the same way that he did, that he had just begun to make inroads into what he felt Illinois needed. And no governor really accomplishes a total progr>am in a four year period; it takes a reelection. Any governor who has done good for Illinois has not been able to do it, a complete total job, unless he's had an eight year shot it. And I think the Governor knew this. And he loved Illinois and felt he could do much to improve it. He felt that by being elected the first time with the highest plurality any governor had ever gotten that he owed the people of the state a debt, he wanted to develop the state and he knew it would take four mre years to do it. I'm sure he was flattered at being sought out. And I think it was written someplace that he had said no man can say that he's not flattered to be offered a chance to have the highest job in the land. But he gave these same reasons again. And [he] would add that his Margaret M. Munn 30

heart was in the job that he was doing and he wanted to finish it. And then I guess, too, he felt the pressures like we did and realized that the pressures would be terrific if this thing really got going and if he would give it any sort of nod, which he did not at any time.

Q. Do you rerrember any of the local people contacting him about the presidency?

A. Oh, I imagine. I imagine that . . . I can't answer as to what they thought, but of course there were a lot of his personal friends who would have encouraged him, feeling that he was of national material and could make even a greater contribution at the national level. I don't know which ones might have done this. But he had the same story for them, I'm sure, that he felt his place was in Illinois, he had a job to do here and he wanted to finish it .

Q. How did the Governor approach the [1952] national convention? A. In what sense, Steve?

Q. Did he go thinking that he might be nominated or

A. Oh no. No. He was hoping, he was hoping against hope, to get this draft business out of the way. I think it was in Mrs. Ives' book [!'1Y_ Brother Adlai] where she-_said she walked in on a telephone conversation one night and she knew that he was talking to someone about this thing• it was just before going to the convention--and she heard him calling this man by name and she knew who it was. He said, "Oh, no, please don't do that. No, I'm very sincere, I don't want it. I don't want you to. " And he shook his head and said something like, "'Ihey just won't believe me. " So I'm sure that he was dead serious about this and went to the convention hoping that this thing would go away.

Q. Well, when did the Governor and the staff arrive in Chicago for the convention?

A. You know, this is the part that--and of course there's nothing written on that, and, as I say, there was no time to keep diaries. It's a bit hazy after a twenty-three year lapse, of course. But I can remember that Carol Evans and I stayed at the Bismarck, as I recall. 'Ihe Bismarck Hotel downtown, as part of the time we spent in the Chicagp office because the newspaper people and different out-of-state dignitaries like, John Fitzgerald Kennedy came to the Chicagp office, I remember, and spent severals days helping out wherever he could. And I remember other dignitaries, but in any event, that's where they would show up. And then Carol and I also took turns going out to Bill Blair's folk's house, where the Governor was staying. And then in the final days, just before the draft and the nomination, Carol and I were both out there working, because the pressures were so great-• phone calls, wires, and so forth.

Q. What were the Governor's activities during the convention?

~------~~~----~------Margaret M. Munn 31

A. Well, pretty much like that of anyone else. He was a delegate to the convention and I suppose they were pretty much as [those of] any• one else. He was very :interested in the activities as to seeing who the candidates were going to be and watching the byplays and things of this sort. I imagine he had a lot of telephone calls and a lot of conversations on that type thing, but as far as he himself was concerned he was doing no campaigning or making no effort to •... If anything, he was probably dissuading people who were ta.lking about the draft. I believe he went out to the convention every day and probably spent nnst of his time in trying to talk people out of this draft bit. We. were not at the convention hall out at the stockyards as much; we were in the office working on State business and other matters.

Q. What was the night like when he was nominated? A. Oh nw, that was sorething. We were out to Bill Blair's house and we were all sitting in the living room and I remember I had a score sheet and was sitting very close to the television. Every now and then, I can remember that both Bill Blair and the Governor looked over rey shoulder to see what the tally looked like on a particular ballot. And then by about-what was it-about two or three o'clock in the morning, it was all over with and he was nominated. We were stunned, but we got ready and went in the motorcade to the stockyards to hear the acceptance speech which had been written hurriedly. And I think that that has to be explained at this point, because he was just durrbfounded. Because he never believed. Never, never did he believe that this would happen. You probably have read Walter Johnson's book on the draft, [How We Drafted Adlai Stevenson] haven't you? You're familiar with it. I donTf know, this draft idea was strictlY that of Walter Johnson and his committee. May I get into that a bit?

Q. It is I1W wish. A. Walter's book [How We Drafted Adlai Stevenson] speaks about the Stevenson Draft Carmdtteeheadquarters on the fifteenth floor of the Hilton Hotel in Chicago. And he even said that it had been written up in some of the leading newspapers around the country that it was the only headquarters of the candidates who were reallY supposed to be in the runn.1ng and the foref'ront-the oniy headquarters that was actuallY without a candidate! And It [Walter Johnson's book] goes on to say that there were all sorts of volunteers working in the interest of a man who-quote--"Declined to have a.nyth1ng to do with it and who avoids any direct or any indirect liaison w1 th those in charge of the rovement or the headquarters, "-unquote. D:>n' t you think that sounds pretty plain as to what his role in this thing was? He was playing this down and hoping that it would go away and trying to discourage them. And nobody would listen. But at the time of his April statement, where he flatlY carre out and made quite a lengthy statement about it, he said he had no other ambition than to be Governor of Illinois and just hoped that he would be reelected to Margaret M. Munn that spot. He was pretty sure he'd be renominated, of course. [He said] that he was not seeking the nomination for President--even though the estimates at that time were said to show that he could have won the nomination with ease. But you see, the picture changed when he kept declining and saying that he didn't want it. It changed a bit. .And that 1 s why I think it took three ballots for him to be nominated. I believe it has been said that he was a sure thing at one time to win the nomination. If I read that, and I knew it and the scribes knew it, I'm af'raid he knew it, too. But he still didn't want it.

And in that same statement, in the same April statement, he said that there were same who had suggested that if he did not feel he wanted to actively seek the nomination, that he announce that he would accept the nomination if it were offered to him-in other words, on a draft basis. He said to state a position on a prospect so rerr:ote in time and probability would be a presumption. And I'm sure he was right. Even to say that he would accept a draft, in my way of thinking, would make it nothing of the sort. .And I'm sure you will agree to that. So I just don't think it was--as some people have said, was not a draft with any approbation, let me put it that way. (pause)

I think a lot of people say, ''Well, why didn't he refuse it "--you know, when he was actually drafted--"if he felt so strongly?" I can only say that at another time he said he did not believe that any such draft can or will develop with no participation on his part, when.they were talking about the draft. I'm not quoting him exactly now, I'm just remembering what he said. And he said that in the unlikely event that it does, he would decide at that time what to do in light of the conditions that exist.

We knew, in his dedication to public service in the past, that he wouldn't be the one to refuse a job that he felt the people felt he could do and wanted him to do. I think he proved this dedication later when, after being defeated for the presidency twice and while he really would like to have been secretary of state, which President Kennedy didn't offer to him, he accepted the appointment as Ambassador to the UN. He took this on because they felt--and I presume he felt--that he was qualified to really render a service at that level. But it was certainly not what he wanted. But this was his dedication, and I think that he probably felt it would be less than An:erican to refuse the appointrent. And I believe it would have been so construed.

Q. What was the acceptance speech like?

A. Oh my, that was a . • . that was a masterpiece . Of course , it . . . (dog barks; tape turned off and on again) Well, I think the thing that stands out most to me in the acceptance speech was that even at that late hour, late stage, which was after the fact, he was still uttering .the same thing. He said, ''You have sumnoned me to the highest mission within the gift of any people. I could not be more proud. That my heart has been troubled. That I have not sought this nomination, that I could not seek it in good conscience, that I would not seek it in honest self-appraisal, Margaret M. Munn 33

is not to say that I value it the less." Now, that to me is a restating of what he had been saying all the while, isn't it? But again, as I say, he was just too dedicated to refuse a draft. llien of course the accep• tance speech goes on and it. . . . I guess it's a masterpiece, generally considered a masterpiece. But I particularly liked the beginning and I liked the end where he says, "And finally, my friends, in the staggering task you have assigned me, I shall alw~ls try to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with my God." The beginning and the end are the two things that appeal to me. And I guess sandwiched in between those two are many, many other gems, but I think that those two parts will stay in my mind more than anything else.

Q. At that point in time, was the Governor, himself, writing his speeches or was he given aid,: by the staff?

A. The Governor was quite a crank about doing his own speeches The speech-writers, the ghost candidate~ a~ 3 they called themselves, 12 and later on the writers at the Elks Club, helped in the preparation. For instance, if a speech was to be in a labor context, Willard Wirtz and some of the labor experts would suggest paragraphs, but they never attempted to write a total speech and send it over to him. That would not be the Governor's speech. llie Governor would not have sounded like he sounded throughout the carrpaign, and always sounded original in style and phraseology, unless he. . . . In other words, they did his research. He would take their ideas, but he would put them into his own words. I think I have said before that I have seen him do this often. He would take maybe two pages of material and condense it into a paragraph or two and come up with the same thought. But it would then be his material. He would use only their basic research material and that was it.

Q. The complaint I've heard from a few members of the press of that time period was that the Governor had a hard time finalizing his speeches, that you might get a prepared copy and it would be changed from what he read.

A. He did that. I would be the first to admit that. He did that, and that 1 s the bane of any secretary's existence, you know. Even today I have two girls who do my stenographic work and I am great at changing things in this fashion. I just wonder if I inherited from him. But I know that my staff has given me a cartoon which I have put up over my

11 Quotes from the Acceptance Speech on July 26, 1952; text can be found in ~or Ca.rrpaign Speeches of Adlai §..:.._ Stevenson. [Ed. ] 12 The speech-writers called themselves ghost candidates because the Governor had an aversion to the term of ghost writers. [M.M.]

1 ~e Elks Club was the name given a group of distinguished writers recruited to work on the Stevenson campaign. For a time they were housed and worked in third-floor rooms in the Springfield Elks Club. [Ed.] Margaret M. Munn 34 desk. It shows this bedraggled secretary taking some work from her boss, and she is saying, "You mean this is the revision of the revised revision of the first revision?" You know? And I think rraybe this is something that I might have gotten by osrrosis, I don't know. But he was, he was great at this. But he was a prefectionist, too. In other words, if he thought something could be said a better wa:y or if some other word had a different shade of meaning, that could be used better, he never had any quaims about changing it. And I think anybody who has written will agree with this. When you get up to sa:y sorething out loud, it sounds-hits your ears differently sometimes. And if 1 d see something there he didn't like on the last going-over of the thing just before he gave it, it would be nothing for him to strike out a word and substitute another word or a whole sentence. Or if he'd look at the group and he'd decide maybe this wasn 1 t the proper place to put that in, he 1 d strike out a whole para• graph or insert one. So I'm sure it irritated some of the press, because they would late copy due to changes. Also, many times when we were on campaign we would finalizing the speech just before we landed at the airport. And by finalizing, I mean his copy, whereas the mimeographed copies of the speech put out to the press had already been distributed. So this made the press a little upset.

IVBybe he 1 d made some--not great changes, but minor changes. In other words, the things that they would complain about; the thing that was complained most about and the thing you probably have reference to, was the fact that their copy wouldn't be verbatim, not the sarre as the speech he delivered. Now, he might even change it again while he was giving it. And that's why either Carol or myself would always have a copy of the speech and we'd sit there with a pencil and follow, and if he changed a word, we would change it on a copy to be sure that if anything happened to the master copy, his copy--if got away from him or anything--we would at least have a copy of that speech as he gave it.

Q. What was the trip home like to Springfield? '4 A. Oh, that was fantastic .1 was unbelievable, really. About twenty- five thousand people turned out, you know, to greet him. And I think was very emotional about it, coming home, and the-fact that people in all walks of life were down at that station greeting him. It was a terrific thing, and of course I was glad to see that people had such good sense and good taste, because this was the first time anybody, certainly from Springfield, had been nominated to be President of the United States. Why shouldn't they turn out? But he was visibly roved by it. It was beautiful. And then they had the ceremonies on what is now the Mall, right where the ma.ll is in fact, and it was a very moving thing and a very wonderful thing. I shall never forget that.

14Photo of Stevenson's homecoming, July 28, 1952 in collateral material. [Ed.] Margaret M. Munn 35

Q. What was the first order of business when you returned to Springfield? A. Steve, I tell you, I think it was a ITDuntain of telegrams and a m::>tu1tain of letters and work. There was just no tin:e to even think after that l We were literally inlll1dated. And of course at that point, there was no organization set up, there was no staff implementation, there were no headquarters. You know, it was just • . . Carol and rr.wself, I guess, at the mansion, and with the help of the statehouse staff we had to make-do tu1til things were organized, until they developed soiTl.El sort of an organization. We had it all to do, and it was pretty hectic.

Q. Did he allow state business to slide off some?

A. No, sir! In fact, early in the campaign, of course. Carol Evans and :reyself always had distinct duties, and State duties carre first in our work. We could double for each other on regular jobs, but there was enough work so that we each had our own duties. We were both pretty excited about this campaign and on the first tour we were both slated to go and did go. Lthink we_·.went on one other tour together and finally the Governor just called us in and said, "Now, I want you to work this out between yourselves, but you both can't go at the sarre time. You can take turns, but one of you must be here to keep the State business moving. " The people on the mansion staff rore or less wo:rked with the Governor differently than the people at the statehouse office. While the people in the statehouse office-Ann Risse and the group--were very efficient, there were a lot of things-because of the fact that the Governor did have a staff and did have an office at the mansion, there were a lot of things that they weren't familiar with, his way of handling [those things]. So this is what he meant; some of these thirl@3 probably had gotten a bit garbled and he just didn't want it happening again so we arranged after that that we would take turns. It finallY developed that Carol didn't much care for the traveling so she said, "I'd just as soon stay here and take care of the office. You go . ahead." So I did, I think, the greater percentage of the traveling. But, the State's business went on. Business as usual. This something that he insisted upon. And of course then after the organization, they n:oved everything down to the Fifth and Cook Street headquarters and we got very little of it except the things that were of a personal nature which they had passed on to the Governor and we answered.

Q. In your opinion, why did the Governor choose Springfield as a national headquarters? A. Well, I think the predominate reason was the, you see, he was still serving as Governor of Illinois. And he was keenly aware of this and somewhat conscience-stricken that his tin:e had to be divided so:rrewhat. This was not just lip service he was giving when he said he couldn't serve two masters-that he could not gp out actively and say I'm going to seek another job when I have promised and corrmitted rr.wself to this one. And he still had part of this term. And then there was the transition of govei"fl1''el1t over to the incumbent governor that he had to think about. Margaret M. Munn 36

And he was so steeped, believed in Illinois so thoroughly that he just didn't take this lightly. So I think this was one of the rnaj or reasons. It was his choice. I don't think any of the politicians agreed w1 th him on it, because headquarters had been always in a metropolis; national headquarters are usually more accessible to bigger cities, in New York and Washington. I suppose because the play makers of the game are there and they figure the conferences could best be held there. But, he had it his way and this was one of the predominate-! think I have read that he said, "No, the decision was mine and mine alone, and it was for the express purpose of finishing out the job that I was elected to do."

Q. Well, what do you know about the choice of Wilson Wyatt as the chairman of the campaign?

A. I don't know too much about that. I associate Wilson Wyatt with Barry Bingham of the Louisville newspaper [Courier-Journal]. I think the Governor and Wilson Wyatt had been friends for years before. I think Wilson Wyatt also had been in federal service at the national level at some time or another and the Governor had known him then. No, I'm not too familiar with the specifics on that, Steve. But he was a very good manager. Wilson Wyatt was an attorney, Federal Housing administrator and former Mayor of Louisville, Kentucky. He was also first chairman of A.D.A. [Americans for Democratic Action].

Q. A lot of people talk about the choice of Wyatt and the choice of Springfield as sort of moving away f'rom HarTy Truman and the alienation from Harry Truman and what he stood for. Do you think that was part of the problem, a moving away?

A. I don't feel that way about it. Do some people feel that way about it? Well, maybe they're more astute politically than I am. I wouldn't read that into it at all. I just thought it was a sensible thing to do, that it was best for him to do justice to both of the jobs he now had. This is the way I felt about it, and I'm sure he felt this way about it.

Q. Well, that's the way Harry Truman felt about it.

A. It is?

Q. Did you ever meet Harry Truman, and what was your opinion of him?

A. No, I saw HarTy Truman and Bess the night of the acceptance speech. I had my personal opinion about Harry Truman; I was not particularly a Truman fan. And I can remember the Governor telling me one time, lmowing that I wasn't too fond of him he said, '~ell, you can like him or not like him, but just remember he will go down in history as one of the great Presidents, because of timing. He was there at a time when some of the hardest decisions in our history had to be made and he made them. And this, apparently, contributes to greatness . " Now, I don't know whether this has yet been proven, but always the Governor maintained that. Margaret M. Munn 37

Q. Could you tell me something about the different campaign head• quarters that were in town, like the national headquarters, the Leland Hotel . . .

END OF TAPE

Q. Would you continue with your explanation of the different campaign headquarters in Springfield?

A. Well, I think actually the headquarters, the main headquarters, was at Fifth and Cook Street . That was the campaign headquarters. Branching out from that was the Leland Hotel headquarters, which had a mail room for the--Kevin Burke, who is now deceased, was a local attorney after the carrpaign and I think was starting out as a young attorney then, was head of the mail room. He had a staff who screened the mail, opened it and moved it on to the proper source, whether it was Fifth and Cook--the headquarters--or over to the mansion.

Also, there was a writer's group, a very, very distinguished group. Carl McGowan, who was the administrative assistant to the Governor, was the recruiter and overseer of this group, and he had recruited his friend Arthur Schlesinger--! think the Governor called him "Arthur Slay-zin-ger." I don't know how Arthur prefers to have it pronounced. But he was more or less chief. Schlesinger, the historian, former Harvard professor. David Bell, who was an assistant to Truman, he was second in comnand of the writer's group. Some of these narres you may have never heard before.

Clayton Fritchey, he was on the White House staff and loaned by Truman, a newspaperman, a former Pulitzer Prize winner. Willard Wirtz, who had worked with the Governor before and was an expert on labor and many other fields, was in the cabinet, in Governor Stevenson's cabinet. Robert Tufts who was a marvelous writer, was from the State Department. John Bartlow Martin, whom you know was a Saturday Evening Post writer and I guess he would be called a historical writer and also a fictional writer. Maybe not quite a fictional writer. I remember one marvelous thing he wrote in the Saturday Evening Post long before I met him; it was an actual report of a horrible highway accident in the East, and I think it was called "Highway 23 11 or something like that. It was an unusual account of a highway accident, as I recall. So that's how I remember John Bartlow Martin's writing.

William Reddig, associated with a number of Kansas newspapers. Sidney Hym.::m, a very bright young man and a good writer who was a Washington associate of Harry Hopkins who was associated with Harry Truman. And I suppose [associated with] Franklin Roosevelt, wasn't he. I think he dated back that far. other in-and-outers included Professor John Kenneth Galbraith, a Harvard economist, and you see him on the tube Etelevision] now; he's still