31 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 32

[Smt. Renuka Chowdhury] THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE With these words, I think you very much MINISTRY OF COMMUNICATIONS for giving me this opportunity, (SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV): Sir, I beg to move; SHRI SHANKARRAO NARAYAN-RAO DESHMUKH (Maharashtra); I support it. "That the Bill further to amend the Indian Post Office Act, 1898. as passed by the Lok Sabha, be taken into consi- ANNOUNCEMENT RE ARREST OP deration." SHRI V. GOPALSAMY MEMBER Sir, as the hon. Members are aware the Indian RAJYA SABHA Post Office Act was enacted as long back as MR. CHAIRMAN; I have to inform the 1898. Ever since there has been only very House that tcommunication dated the (9th minor amendments but there was no major December, 1986 has been received from the change affecting this Act to bring it into Deputy Superintendent of Police, Tirunelveli consonance with the developments that have Sub-Division, Tamil Nadu; stating that Shri taken place for the last 88 years. This Act V. Gopalsamy, Member of Rajya Sabha, came into force under the British regime DMK Party, was arrested in Tirunelveli when India was a colony and therefore some Junction Police Station under section, 143, of the provisions, in the Act are colonial in its 188 of the Indian Penal Code, Section 2 of the altitude and structure. This amendment to the Prevention of Insult to National Honour Act Indian Post Office Act envisages to take care and Section 7(1)(A) of the Criminal Law mainly of three aspects. (1) to bring the Act in Amendment Act and that he has been re- greater confor-with the Constitution of India manded. and its recent interpretations, (ii) to take care Now, we shall take up the Indian Post of the growing needs of our modern society Office (Amendment) Bill, 1986 and the and (iii) to plug the loopholes against the Indian Post Office (Secon'd Amendment) abuse of certain provisions through modern Bill, 1986. Both the Bill will be discussed know-how and technology. together. Mr. Santosh Mohan Dev. As you can see; Sir, our endeavour is to SHRI LAL K. ADVANI (Madhya completely modify ,the Section 26 of the Act Pradesh): Mr. Chairman, Sir, may I point out which provides for interception of postal that even though both of these amendments articles for public good so that it is more in are amendments in the Indian Post Office Act, conformity with the Fundamental Rights the subject-matter of the two amendments is enshrined in Article 19(2) of our totally different. One relates to postal tariff Constitution. The old Act prescribed that and the other relates to the substance of the under certain circumstances for public good, Post Office Act which is sought to be the postal articles could be intercepted. But amended, it relates to interception of mai], there was no safeguard against the arbitrary censorship and all that use of this power by the state authority. Now. if the present amendment is effected, then MR. CHAIRMAN: It has been decided in this power can be made justiciable and there- the Business Advisory Committee and by the Court of Law can review any such therefore we may proceed. decision on the part of the authorities delegated with these socially and politically important powers.

1. THE INDIAN POST OFFICE Incidentally this Amendment Bill also (AMENDMENT). BILL, 1986. seeks to fulfil an assurance given in the other House some time ago by 'he then Minister of 2, THE INDIAN POST OFFICE Communications, lata Shri (SECOND AMENDMENT) BILL, 1986 33 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 34

C. M. Stephen while discussing a Private mail in multi-storeyed building (Section Member's Bill seeking some changes in 21(4).). disposal of un-delivered postal articles Section 26 of the Indian Post Office Act, (Section 37, 38 and 39), entertaining claims for brought forth by Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee, moneyorders for six months, recovery of value who was then in that House and who is now of the value repayable articles and above all the with us in this House. Taking this assurance, general power to make rules under the Act Shri Vajpayee withdrew his Bill and I am (Section 74). We also have made, as you must now happy to say that this assurance to Shri have noticed, certain amende ments of minor or Vajpayee will now stand fulfilled with the verbal so as to take care of the recent passing of the Bill by this House. expansion of our organisation and areas of activities. We also have moved an amendment [The Deputy Chairman in the Chair]. to Section 8 to augment the flow of revenue so that the Government reserves the power to I am sure that the hon. Members of this make rules as to payment of postage and fees Hous will certainly appreciate this major in respect of new services likely to be step which we are contemplating introduced by the Department and also the to take As I had mentioned earlier that since grant of postage. The examples • being the the Act was formulated in pre-induv rial Express Delivery Service, the Speed Post and lndia, it could not take care of the bulk mailing etc. and which are being possibilities of certain abuses which acrue introduced and will be introduced for from both qualitative and quantitative augmenting our mailing system. changes in the mailing structure. For example under Section 9, we like fo empower the To sum up, in this Amendment Bill, we Government to make rules regarding the would like to bring in changes which should abuse of the concessional postal rates commensurate with the structural prescribed only for newspapers. Similarly, changes that have occurred in the postal provisions regarding th; abuse of the franking communication system. Secondly, . 'so have machines (under Section 16), destruction of to make such laws strin-• against the abuse obscene articles under Section 23(3) (b) etc. of the system agains; private couriers and have to be revised. Now we propose to also against les now prevalent in the bring greater penalty for such modern society. Above all we also * dastardly acts and a new Section under 56 have endeavoure to bring this law to greater contemplates a penalty of imprisonment for -ormity with the spirit of our Constitution. life or for a term which may extend upto 10 Madam, I also beg to move; years or fine or both for such crimes. "That the Bill furthe to amend the Indian Post Ever since independence, India has been set Office Vet, 1 98, as passed by Lok Sabha, be on the path of rapid industrialisation. Both taken into consideration." modernisation and industrialisation have Madam, the proposed Bill is intended to introduced in our society certain demands in revise the tariff rates of some of the items terms of communications which have to be included in the First Schedule to the Act, met by our organisation. In this regard, I namely letters printed post would like to mention that both the quantum cards, book pattern and sample packets, flow of mails and the structure of mails have registered newspapers and parcels. The last undergone considerable change compared to amendment of the rates mentioned in the time when this Act was formulated. As a the First Schedule was made in June, 1982. result, in order to provide the infrastructural As has already been brought to the notice of facilities for our modernising society, we have the House, the Department of Posts is brought certain new aspects in the Postal Act incurring huge losses in running its various such as system of delivery of services. The deficit which 35 The Indian Post Office [ RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt ) Bill, 1986 36.

[Shri Santosh Mohan Dev] king, a common man today, who on as average uses 4 to 5 envelopes a month, stood at Rs. 136 crores in 1984-85 rose to Rs. perhaps, will not be greatly inconvenienced 163 crores in 1985-86. With a further by this tariff rise. increase in the cost of operations due to implementation of the Fourth Pay ;So, Sir. I commend for the consideration of Commission's recommendations as also the this House the Indian Post Office all-round increase in other operational costs such as air freight. rail-freight etc., the deficit (Amendment) Bill, 1986, and the Indian Post is expected to be of the order of Rs. 400 Office (Second Amendment) Bill, 1986. crores during 1986-87. Since the deficit is far beyond our expectations, we have no other THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There is one alternative except to increase the tariff of amendment of Shri Satya Prakash Malaviya some of the selected items of postal services. for reference of the Indian Post Office (Amendment) Bill, 1986 to the Select Members would be glad to note that it is Committee of Rajya Sabha. not, however, proposed to increase the rates for ordinary post cards and letter cards, i.e. inland letters, which continue to be 15 paise and 35 paise respectively. Briefly the proposal is to increase the rates presently being charged for envelopes from the existing 55 paise comprising 50 paise on account of stamp and 5 paise on account of stationery charges to 70 paise comprising 60 paise for stamp and 10 paise for stationery. The 10 paise to be charged on account of stationery, however, does not from part of this Bill, but falls under the Rule making powers of Government.

As the hon. Members will appreciate that ours is a public utility service. Members are also aware that in order to provide facilities for the rural areas often post offices have to be opened in remote parts of the country even though they are not economically viable. We do not intend to run a profit making organisation. But we must have an efficient system. We are taking, and will continue to take, all steps for cutting down expenses by streamlining procedures and thereby cutting down public waiting time at counters. Under these circumstances, I am sure Members will appreciate the compulsions under which we have had an unavoidable necessity of increasing traiff rates of some of the items. Even then we have not proposed to increase the rates of the ordinary postcard and the inland letters to protect our less privileged customers in rural areas. Generally spe- THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; The two Bills, and the amendment are now open: for discussion.

The questions were proposed. 37 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 38

SHRI MOSTAFA BIN QUASEM ing Bill. These two clauses will have the total (West Bengal): Hon. Deputy Chairman, effect of discontinuing the long-standing Madam, I rise to oppose both these Bills. I practice of delivering letters, mail and oppose the first Bill mainly because of the moneyorders at the doorssteps of the addi reinsertion by the Government of the most esses, at least in certain cases, and to my undemocratic provision contained in section understanding, this is a measure imposed by 26 of the principal Act, that is Indian Post the Universal Postal Bureau at Brussels under Office Act, 1898. Madam, section 26 of the IMF conditionality. These conditionalities do principal Act, even in its present amended not suit Indian conditions at present and I form, will continue to give unbridled powers oppose it. Madam, I would like to draw your in the hands of the Government to intercept kind attention, to the protracted miserable and detail mailed postal articles, plight of about three lakh extra-departmental including letters, under the garb of the employees associated with the postal protection of security and soverignty of the department in the hands of the Central country, the public order, preservation of the Government. A number of them have been inte, grity of the country, etc. I fail to under- working for a period of over 20-25 years stand—so far as preservation of the in- our and some of them have to work for five to country is concerned—how can it be eight hours a day. Madam, you are aware that preserved by intercepting even the mailed the conditions of service and res- inland letters when the present danger to ponsibilities of these extra-departmental country's integrity largely stems from tha employees are similar to that of their present Government's policy of apeasemtnt regular counterparts in the department. towards separatist and divisive forces in Yet, they are denied the facilities enjoyed by different parts of the country. You are aware their counterparts, regular employees in the that section 26 of the principal Act is the postal department. In these hard days, they get handiwork of the British imperial rulers in our a pittance of an amount ranging between Rs. country, and it is a shame that what the 180 to 315 per month. Taking advantage of Britishers found necessary to have as one of the grave situation, unemployment situation their legal weapon some hundred years in the country, the Government are treating ago, to perpetuate their imperialist rule in the them as medieval slaves. This is country, should continue to find a place in the exploitation, pure and simple. In tune with body of a piece of legislation in dependent the demand raised by all the trade unions of India. I have every reason to believe that as postal employees in the country, I would as the case with other black draconian laws strongly urge upon the Government to make in the country like NSA, ESMA, etc., this will necessary immediate arrangements for de- also continue to be misused by the partmentalisation of these employees and Government to contain primarily their pending such departmentalisation, wages political oppone-nts, to harass their and fringe benefits available to the political opponents, and particularly the departmental employees should immedia- leaders and workers of the left democratic tely be extended to the extra-departmental movement in the country. In this phase of employees. (Interruption) They have no working class movement gaining a steady other benefit except this amount. That is why I momentum throughout the country, demand that the wages and other fringe increasing encroachment upon the benefits enjoyed by the departmental citizens, rights by the Government has been employees should immediately be extended the order of the day and section 26 of this Act to them. mili-lates against a very vital civil liberty of the citizens of the country, that is the right As you are quite aware, in this poor to free communication. I, therefore, consider country of ours, postal system is the prime it to be undemocratice and we should all medium of cheap communication for the unitedly oppose this section. common people. Still there are many a village in the country where there is no post office. Now, I would like to draw your attention to For the interest of the common people, the clauses 14 and 24 of this amend- further expansion of the postal system in our country is and will cer-

39 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 40

[Shri Mostafa Bin Quasum] We have the common mistaken tendency of tinue be an urgent necessity. But not to speak putting the petty postman or some petty clerk of expansion; the Government arc in a haste to or some petty official in the dock. But should shrink even existing facilities. Madam, as you we forget to remember know, the postal department has already that they are just tiny cogs in 11 reduced the number of delivery of mails per Noon a giant wheel. And the villain day. This has resulted in huge pile-up of, of the piece is to be traced in the backlog of mail in many post offices in the corridors of power in New Delhi. Having country. Seoondly, tho time-tested system, of miserably failed during these past years to RMS which used to handle nearly 15-17 per- adopt meaningful measures, to increase cent of the total mail in the country has almost efficiency and also to ensure economy in the been given a go-by. This has rendered about working of the postal department, the 15,000 employees surplus at the national Government having once again shamelessly level. The QMS system has been disbanded to chosen to impose severe burden on the make room for the new speed post system common people to cover their lapses and their which is designed to cater to the needs of big failures. business houses and the rich people only. All these rneasures of the Covernment flow Madam, the second Indian Post Office from their determination to go ahead with (Second Amendment) Bill is just intended to planned staff-shedding in the postal give a Iegal sanction to these newer department. I am constrained to say that at the onslaughts on the people. Only on 28th behest of the present de facto mentors of the November, 1986, this year, the hon. Finance Indian economy, the IMF and the World Minister announced in both the Houses of Bank, the Government are eager to minimise Parliament the wide-ranging and sharp the expenditure on this vital and important increases in postal tariff. I need not to go into public utility service of the country. The details item-wise about the increase in postal annual Plan document for 1986-87, brought tariff because that has already been pointed out by the Planning Commission admits that out in the House on an earlier, occasion, but during 1985-86, in the postal sector, no new you will he knowing, Madam, that even books post office could be opened. On the other and newspapers will be costing more than hand, under a new system, a good number of they talk so high of spreading education and licensed postal agencis have been set up in increasing social consciousness among the different parts of the country. The licensed people throughout the country. This is the postal agencies, Madam, are no more than position. private agencies The Government have also closed their eyes to the increasing intrusion by Madam, a few days back the hon. private curer agencies into the areas of postal Railway Minister announced hikes in railway operation in our country. These are fare in keeping with the overall policy unmistakable symptom of the present of the present Government. I feel that there Government's policy of permitting postal is a sharp competition amongst the Minister to operation to steadily fully and increasingly impose newer burden on the people. I would privatised in our country. It is unfortunate that like to warn the hon. Minister and for that we are going to witness very soon in his matter the Government that unless good country the emergence of a parallel system, senses prevail upon you, unless you find parallet postal system, with all the attendant reason to do away, to discontinue your anti- vices of private trade in essential. people policies and measures, the people of T would like to further point out that this great country will in no time give a efficiency and economy in the postal de- befitting reply to you that too not through partment continues to be a far cry. Out of letter box but the final analysis through sheer disgust, out of sheer anguish, with the effective measures and you must be knowing working of the postal department. them well. With this I conclude.

SHRI VISHWA BANDHU GUPTA (Delhi): Madam, I will not take more 41 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill. 1986 42

than two minutes. I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to section 9 of the Indian Post Office Act 1898 relating to specified rates of postage to newspapers. This is proposed to he amended with a view to checking the misuse of the facilitie of concessional rates of postage, as has been specified in the statement of Objects and Reasons appended to the Bill. Madam, I propose that section 9, clause 2, sub-clause (a) be amended so as to read as under:

"9.2(a) That it is published in numbers at intervals of up to 31 days or more, as may be notified in the rules.

The hon. Minister of Communication is well aware that the newspapers in India include not only daily newspapers but weeklies, periodicals and monthilies. AH these catergories must have facilities of concessional rates since they all help in spreading education. They also assist in the process of national integration. The hon. Minister may, therefore, consider the amendment so that newspapers and bringing the Act in line with the postal periodicals are not unnecessarily given a system and facilities introduced later on. greater burden than they have and the misuse of this section will not be there. The periodicals which are published on a larger periodicity will also not be harassed.

43 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHAl (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 44

45 The Indian Past Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 46

this encourages the use of the franking machines by commercial organisations and also by individuals. The Govem-ment has the right to give concessions.

47 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 48.

[ 10 DEC 19861 (Amndt.) Bill 1986 50 49 The Indian Post Office [ 10 DEC. 1986 ]

In clause 26 of the Bill whatever has been provided for is an indication of that attitude of the Government. Therefore, we resist it, we oppose it with all strength at our command. 51 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 52

53 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 54

55 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amdt.) Bill, 1986 56

minion, are in use till now. Our Government has been sleeping over this outdated Act so long. That is why I support the change in the title removing all these irrelevant words which are incongruous to the present context.

Now, coming to the efficiency of the post offices, I would like to say that postal service is common man's communication nowadays. Common people have no telex facilities. They cannot afford to send any messages by telegrams. They cannot afford to have a telephone. That is why I say it is common man's means of communication. Therefore, the postal service must be improved, its efficiency must be improved, I shall give you one instance. If a Money Order is remitted and if it does not reach the addresses in time, a com- plaint is to be lodged only on the expiry of one month from the date of remittance, as per the rule which was laid down during the British regime, at a time, when there were no postal facilities and postal runners used to take mail to villages by walking long SHRI PUTTAPAGA RADHAKRISHNA distances; they used to go to far away villages (Andhra Pradesh); Mr. Deputy Chairman, by walk to deliver the Money Order or Sir,. .. letters. Till today the same rule is SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, it is continuing when a Money Order can reach any village within two days from any Madam Deputy Chairman. place; nowadays it should Teach from one SHRI PUTTAPAGA RADHAKRISHNA; place to another in two or three days. But for I call her Sir honourably. Sometimes. some that they have made a rule of one foreigners used to address our late Mrs.. month. Even TMOs are taking too much time. Indira Gandhi as Mr. Indira Gandhi. It is, They are taking as much as four to five days to therefore, that I addressed her sir- Madam, teach Hydearbad from Delhi. Therefore, Deputy Chairman, I rise to oppose the Bill Irequest the Minister first he should look with a small qualification. The Minister has after his own efficiency. A provision is himself disclosed that the first clause that is made in the Bill to ban private courier proposed to amend the title ,of the Bill was services. First of all, how did it come nto originally proposed by our honourable Shri existence? Only due to the inefficiency in the Vajayee in the other House. That is why I Postal Department that the private courier support this clause and I congratulate shri system has come up. They are giving more Vajpayee... effective service. That is why they are encouraged and people are approaching SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: . them more and more. Of course, this does not Then I was in Lok Sabha. Now I am in parlok mean that you don't ban them. It is time for sabha. the Government to see that every village in the country is covered by postal and telegraphic SHRI PUTTAPAGA RADHAKRISHNA; services. I reouest the Minister to improve Madam, we attained independence in 1947. the efficiency of the postal service 'and to But in the postal world, that is, in the Postal open as many post Act still we are in British India. Words like Her Majesty, His Majesty, British lndia British Do- 57 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 . 58 offices as possible, to set a target, a deadline for spoken on it. But would like to say that I covering each and every village in the entire vehemently oppose the interception of letters. country, both by postal as welt as It Was already in force unofficially and now telegraphic service. On the contrary, I find it is being legalised. The postal people are they are closing down some Post offices. already in the habit of opening the letters and They have, in fact, closed down thousands reading them. There is an old postman in our of Branch post offices and hundreds of sub-post area... office in my own State. I mentioned this earlier in this august House. Apart - from that, DR. BAPU KALDATE; They will read the they are removing thousands of ED employees. I love letters only. need not explain this thing much because my colleague, Mr. Mostafa, has already raised that SHRI PUTTAPAGA RADHAKRISHNA: point and I need not explain it any more. The There is an old postman in my area. One day ED employees—Extra-Departmental he was reading some letters. There was a employees—. are doing all kinds of work letter in Telugu and he sought my assistance, in the department. They are undertaking all res- Madam, to read the letter. In the process, ponsibility in the department. But they are Madam, what I found was that he was having, receiving the lowest salary. Even then they he had collected, hundreds of love letters! He continue to be Extra-Depatmental employees. is an old man and he is retired also and yet he They are not regular departmental people. They has collected hundreds of love letters! I think continue as Extra-Deparimentaj employees. he will be reading these love letters in his retirement days; I do not know. Then there is a lot of delay in opening new post offices. I shall give you the instance of my SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: Why own native village. The Minister and his did he approach you? Why did he come with department can verify . this from their records. so many letters, with hundreds of letters, to For Jonnalawada a branch post office was you? Why did he take them to your sanctioned twelve years ago. Even today it has residence? Probably, you wanted to have not been opened. Post office which was some lessons? (Interruptions). sanctioned twelve years ago has not been opened till today I have written a number of SHRI PUTTAPAGA RADHAKRISHNA: letters to the Minister, to the department; I He sought my assistance to read only one people, to the Director-General of Posts and letter which was in Telugu and that provided Telegraphs. to the PMG and to so many others. me an opportunity to know that he had collected a hundred letters like that. DR. BAPU KALDATE; Don't write Otherwise, I have not read his letters. I do. letters to so many people. not know whether he is going through those love letters during his old ago SHRI PUTTAPAGA RADHAKRISHNA: (Interruptions). Recently, they have bifurcated the Department. If ,t helps in the improvement of its efficiency, it is welcome. But I have nothing to say about PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: With this it Now, I come to the most important item, new provision jn the Bill, the Minister will that is, interception of letters. go through the love letters legally!

PROF. C LAKSHMANNA (Andhra SHRI PUTTAPAGA RADHAKRISHNA; Pradesh); The most obnoxious system? Apart from this. Madam, no res-ponsible and senior officer is entrusted with 'his power. It is SHRI PUTTAPAGA RADHAKRISHNA; delegated to many. An unimaginable number I do not want to say much on it becausa of officers and officials are empowered to already Dr. Bapu Kaldate has open letters. I have a doubt here and I want a clarification from the honourable Minister. 59 The Indian post, Office [RAJYA SABHAl (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 60

[Shri Puttapaga Radhakrishna] reminded of a story. There was a young boy whose family needed help badly; his father Now you have the power to intercept letters. was seriously ill. Madam, be deci-ded to write And even under the present system, there is a to God for help. When his letter reached the category of insured letters. If a letter under post office, the employees, finding it difficult insurance is posted, and if it is intercepted to reach the letter to God, read the letter and what will be its fate? What happens to its took pity on the boy. Then and there they insurance? collected some funds and sent a couple of thousands of rupees by mail, which reached DR. BAPU KALDATE: That is insurance the needy boy. Madam, after a week, the same for interception! boy wrote another letter to God. He thanked God for help and requested God not to send SHRI PUTTAPAGA RADHAKRISHNA: money through mail next time. The reason he Now Madam, I come to the second gave Was that he was sure that God must have Amendment Bill and that is with regard to the sent double the amount previously but the increase in the postal rates. The Government postal department must have taken away half says that it will take the country to the 21st of it. So he requested God not to send money century. If we wait for another fourteen years, next time by mail. This is the "goodwill" of we will automatically reach the 21st century. Postal Department. I have personal experience But even during this century, the Postal also that sometimes postman collects money Department 'has fixed the rates of the 21st and lands it on interest, and after a few months century! I wonder whether they will fix the he delivers it to the proper person. This should 22nd century rates by the time we reach the be improved and "goodwill" should be 21st century! Therefore, I vehemently oppose restored, this Bill. Of course, it cannot be withdrawn now because they have already increased the rates and they have come into force. So, they Madam, the Post Office Act was enacted in cannot withdraw it. (Interrupion) Some rates 1898, Since then the service of the post have come into force; I know it. Any how, I offices are well recognised, undoubtedly, it is oppose this Bill also. I request the Minister to a service organisation. This department serves withdraw the second Amendment Bill and to 74 crores of people. They are served by keep in mind the points that we have raised 1,44,875 post offices in 22 States and 9 Union for the future also. Territories. There is an average of one post office for 5132 people and for an area of With these words, Madam, I vehemently 21.86 sq. km. The total mail volume rose by oppose this as a whole except the change in 60 crores piecs of mail, reaching 1198 crores title and of the irrelevant words contained in pieces of mail delivered during 1984-85. The the Act framed during the British times. total postal revenue earned during 1984-85 Thank you. Madam. was Rs- 444.41 crores. The total expenditure THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. on postal services during the year Was Rs. Rajan; Ranjan Sahu. 580.50 crores, including the dividend of Rs. 11.84 crores. Consequently, there was a net SHRI RAJNI RANJAN SAHU (Bihar); deficit of Rs. 36.09 crores. Madam, this is the Madam, I rise to support the Indian Post reason for the Second Amendment Bill. It is Office (Amendment) Bill and the Indian Post most opportune in the present context. In Office (Second Amendment) Bill, 1986. additon to the network of regular post offices, 70.200 villages were heing served by rural Before I take up the Bills and details and mobile post offices. All except 233 villages in suggest a few points to our hon. Minister, I the country were having the facility of daily refer to the previous speaker, Mr. Mahendra delivery of mail. As on 31-3-1985 there were Mohan Mishra, who emphasized on 5,01,223 letter boxes in the goodwill. Madam, I am 61 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 62

country out of which 4,25,652 were installed newspapers that once the late Prime Minister's in rural areas and 75,571 in urban areas. So letter reached the addressee after several years. It there is sufficient service extended to the is not fair on the part of the P&T Department to rural areas. It is said that this first amendment allow such state of affairs to has come as per the recommendation of the continue, in its delivery system. 1 P-M. Law Commission. Considering the volume of Madam, what is the use of a letter work involved in the post offices and in view if it is received after the event is over. of other considerations, in its 38 th report the The letter is written for the event only. So, speedy Law Commission made a number of and safe delivery of communication must be the recommendations for the revision of the essence of the postal service because it is a 1896: Act. This Bill seeks to give effect to service-oriented organisation. I suggest to the hon. those recommendations made by the Law Minister that a pro-vision should be made in this Commission. It also seeks to make certain Act to see that the letter must reach its destination amendments in the Act for dealing with within two or three days in any part of the country. certain difficulties which have been As a layman, I would also suggest that a team of experienced in the working of the Act. There industrial engineers or a team of experts should be are very minor amendments as mentioned jn appointed to take up a study with a view to Clauses 1 to 25. Enormous powers have been improving the working methods, short-cutting given to the department. But there is a contro- processes, and using modern machines, using la- versy. The honourable Member who spoke bour-saving devices', and specially designed just before me from the opposite side stationeries to avoid duplication and so on. questioned Section 26. But it is very essential to include this Clause in the present situation. so far as the suggestion of our learned Madam, the second suggestion that I would like colleague, Kaldateji, is concerned, in regard to submit is that there should be a seven days to improving the efficiency, the department working by recruiting additional staff. The leave must improve its efficiency. But at the same reserve must be taken into account while time our learned friend, Kaldateji, should calculating the work force. There is no logical and realise that we are today passing through convincing reason to keep the Postal Department fundamentalism and terrorism and in this closed on holidays. As all of us know, most of the context Clause 26 is a must; otherwise, as industries have now stag, gered holidays. So, the somebody said, there may be at time-bomb, Postal Department should come up to the there may be a postal bomb, there may be expectations of the people. Increase in working some accident. So, to avoid scope for such days will also bring down the load on the workers things, insertion of Section 26 is a must and I and will also improve the efficiency of the work- support insertion of Section 26 hundred per ers. The P&T Department, will not have to pay cent; I say it must be there with ali right and extra over-time to workers and to some extent the might. problem of unemployment will also be solved. The I have a few more suggestions to make in Postal Department should work in shifts. This will regard to improving the efficiency of the post help in increasing the efficiency and quicker offices. With the increase in population delivery of mails. My third suggestion to the hon. and communication and transport facilities and Minister is about the saving banks. There are post expansion of business, industries, postal office savings banks. I feel that where there are work has equally increased and adequate number of banks and there are banks in consequently complaints have also increased. the Panchayats also—there is no need of keeping The primary duty, as I said earlier, of the the savings banks in these areas. So, the Minister P&T Department is to deliver letters quickly. should think over it and amend the Act suitably. But in the present set-up this My fourth suggestion is that sale of tickets and responsibility is not being maintained, is not post cards being discharged, as has been mentioned by our other friends. Members must have read jn the 63 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) BilI, 1986 64

[Shri Rajni Ranjan Sahu] on agency basis considered amendment to the Indian Post should be given to the educated unemployed Office Act, and not this kind of a law. What people. My fifth suggestion to the hon. this law does is simply to scores out irrelevant Minister is that licensed postal facility should parts, to make the ultravires provisions as be introduced. (Time-bell rings) High speed intravires. But nothing has been done to make electrically operated franking machines it democratic; nothing has been done to bring should be provided in the busy post offices, it, in conformity with the political ethos of the and it should be provided in the Patna city country, realising the need to trust the people, and not to re-enact a law similar to that which post office also. the Britishers did and which bore a clearly Madam, I would now come to the second colonial stamp, and did not trust the people at Bill. There has been a budgetary allocation of all. The same distrust continues today in the Rs. 295 crores in the Seventh Plan. Out of first amendment that has been introduced. this, Rs. 215 crores has been kept for the Therefore, I strongly oppose this Bill. buildings. I suggest to the hon. Minister that request should be made to reduce and the So far as the second Bill is concerned, I Planning Commission should be advised that regard it as an unconscionable, unjust and there should be more expenditure on new unwarranted burden on the common people, technology and new machines. and furthermore, T regard it as a curb on the Madam, lastly, I would request the hon. growth of the press and publications and Minister to introduce credit card system as is books. These are the two reasons why I in vogue in other countries. It will relieve the oppose both these Bills. consumer of the headache in paying the bills. Madam, with these words, I support the It has been said in the Statement of Objects Bills. Thank you. and Reasons that the Bill that is heing brought now, is in pursuance of the Law Commission's SHRI LAL K. ADVANI (Madhya Pradesh): 38th Report. I have gone through the Law Madam Deputy Chairman, I rise to oppose Commmission's Re-port- The Law both the bills that have been moved by the Commission is principally concerned with the hon. Minister. I would not deny that Post constitutionality of the provisions; it is not Office Act needs basic and radical concerned with whether they are really amendments. A complete overhaul has been democratic, whether they are desirable or not. long overdue. Till now, perhaps, the But even then. I find in the Report some very Government have not had the time to go into interesting referen. ces. one reference which I all these matters; otherwise, one Cannot find particularly interesting is that when this explain why after so many years, we have to Bill was originally enacted in 1898, at that introduce five clauses seeking to omit 'Her time a Select Committee of the Legislative Majesty's Government' or 'British Council was constituted and that Select possessions'—all such totally irrelevant Committee had a member by the name of Shri phrases. To the extent that irrelevance is being Anand Charulu. Mr. Anand Charulu opposed stripped from the Act, it is welcome—and to this particular section 26 and said that this sec- the extent that some of the unconstitutional tion should not be there. The British Gov- provisions are sought to be amended; it is ernment did not accept his view and the Select good and it is necessary; otherwise in the Act, Committee approved of the proposed Bill. He as it was, if recourse had been taken to section gave a note of dissent and said: 1 do not agree 26, and someone had gone to the court, then with this. In the Council, when the Select section 26, sub-clause (2) would surely have Committtee's Report was discussed, this is been struck down as being illegal. So, when what Mr. Anand Charulu said: the Government is omittiug sub-clause (2), it is not a very big obligation that it is doing to the people. What was needed really was a "A strong and a just Government, above well- all others, cust not shrink from day light. The power in question is one 65 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 6 6

which it seems to me, must be as abhorrent my friends call me Lal and he is known as to good governments as to the public, and good Lalaji. This slight difference made them put governments should them-ves provide effectual his letters into my envelope and my letters checks-and safeguards to render-it impossible for into his. bad government readily to resort to arbitrary or high-handed proceedings." Madam, what I am pointing out is, even though this law, this statute, has been My apprehension is that having brought this there, no one openly justified tampering particular Bill in the year 1986, this veri,' with the mail of Members of Parlia deliberately, very consciously, arms the ment. Even then, officials had been doing officials with the power which was already there it At whose instance, I do not know. This in the statute book but which was not invoked much I do know that this mail tampering directly. My colleague here Shri Kaldate— and tapping of telephones has been going he is not here now— was referring to the on for a long time and at very very high censorship that took place: in 1975-1976-1977, levels, including members of the ruling when the country was passing through the party and members of the Central Govern nightmare called the Emergency. Madam, I ment. I do not know whether it still con- forget all that. I do not want to go into all that. I tinues or not. Two years ago, it was there. believe, we have learnt something out of that. My colleague, shri Vajpayee, had occasion We should learn something out of that. Bet in personally to point out to Shri Mirdha that this House, its all I had occasion once to raise tapping of telephones had been going on. this issue of censorship in the year 1980-81 and Madam, I thought, when the Indian Po3t point out that while justification was being given Office Act is being formally amended and for postal censorship, for the authority of the a comprehensive Bill is being brought, sup Government of the executive, to intercept mail posedly on the recommendations of the and parcels because they wanted to deal with Law Commission, all these matters would terrorists, they wanted to deal with anti-national be done into, all these matters would be elements, they wanted to deal with anti-social properly dealt with. Therefore, it is that elements, they wanted to deal with smugglers, f feel the new Minister has totally disap they wanted to deal with criminals and they pointed us. I do not know how much, wanted to deal with people who threatened the courage he has. I hope he has. A collea country's unity and integrity etc. etc., could gue of mine has given notice of a Select anybody say how Atal Bihari Vajpayee, L. K. Committee motion. After all, you will have Advani and the former Mayor of Delhi. Shri your majority in the Select Committee. The Hans Raj Gupta, how these three, came within Bill has been passed by the Lok Sabha. Let the ambit of this law. I gave to the Chairman of it be referred to a Select Com this House irrefutable proof that my dak, my mittee of the House. ((Time-bell post, my mail, was being censored continuously rings). Let us see whether we for so many days. On one occasion, what can come to an agreed consensus. It happened was, be cause the former Mayor Shri is not a matter in which parties are invol Hans Ra} Gupta's name was also on the ved . No. Either you say that you distrust censorship list, his letters came into my envelope all of us and, therefore, in the name of the and my letters went into his envelopes. On that terrorist threat in the name of anti-natiotial occasion. I pointed out to the Chairman here elements, you want to arm yourself with that a letter which was supposed to come from this law. Or, let me suggest the minimum Chandigarh from the Editor of Tribune you must. I am totally opposed to sec addressed to me carried the Tribune cover all tion 26. But the minimum you can do is, right, but inside, there was a letter from accept what the Press Commission had Wardha meant for Shri Hans Raj Gupta. This said jn the year 1980. They have said— was because my name happens to be Lal K. they referred to the tapping of telephones Advani and and then went on to the Post Office Act:—

Tapping of telephones is a serious In- vasion of privacy. It is a variety of technological eavesdropping." 67 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 68

[Shri Lal K. Advani] They what the Bill said and how what is being now added: done have no relation whatsoever to each other. "Conversations on the telephones are often of an intimate and confidential SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: Leave it character. The relevant statute, i.e. Indian to me and Shri Vajpayee. Telegraph Act, 1985, a piece of ancient legislation, does not concern itself with SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: How can 1 do tapping. Tapping cannot be regarded as a tort that? You have tapped my talk, you have because the law as it stands today does not tapped my telephones. How can 1 leave it to know of any general right to privacy. you? My colleagues were saying that the situation was bad, do you not want terrorism This is hardly a satisfactory situation. There to be contained? Yes, I want that, but what has are instances where apprehensions of happened and what is exactly happening? disclosure of sources of information as well as the character of information may result in SHRI RAJNI RANJAN SAHU; From. 1978 constraints on freedom of information and to 1980 you have tapped our talk. consequential drying up of its source. We, therefore, recommend that telephones may SHRI LAL K. ADVANI-. Whosover did it, not be tapped except in the interest of national did the wrong thing and. I can say that we security, public order, etc under orders made in writing by the Minister concerned or an have consistently been of that view. When we officer of rank to whom the power in that came to know of one case, we saw to it that it behalf is delegated. The order should disclose was stopped. I wish you had brought to our reasons. An order for tapping of telephones notice some cases and we would have should expire after three months from the date stopped them. of the order." SHRI RAJNI RANJAN SAHU; But there . It is this that the Commission has tried to should be a provision. provide safeguards against abuse of these powers. This is the minimum I would expect. SHRI LAL K. ADVANI; The provisions is The Commission goes on to say, "that similar not at all necessary. If there are to be provisions, considerations should have dictated insertion than the minimum that must be done is to accept of these words in section 26 of the Post Office the Press Commission's recommendations in Act and, recommend that this might be done this regard- . now." In both the cases they want adequate Madam, I would strongly like to endorse what safeguards to be built into the Act if yon ate Mustafaji said about the extra departmental not going to scrap the provisions altogether employees. Their condition is really bad. They which give the executive an authority to are required to work for five hours a day and intercept mail or indulge in tapping. these number goes into three to four lakhs. It is not a small number. Unfortunately, the present Madam, I woud not like to deal with this Government, with its elitist approach to every aspect further because wry relevant problem, has the tendency to close down post amendments have been given by my colleague offices in the villages in order to dispense with Shri Vajpayee. (Interruptions). I am very these extra departmental employees who are happy that the Minister has referred to the really serving the people. The kind of labour Private Members Bill that had been moved by that they do, the kind of hard work that they Shri Vajpayee in the Lok Sabha and has said have to put in to -serve the people, is immense that this is in fulfilment of the promise given and they are paid a pittance of only Rs. 200 or by Mr. CM. Stephen in the House in response Rs. 250. I would say that these extra depart- to the Bill moved by him. Well, that is a very mental employees should be regularised, they welcome thing. It will be for him to say, should be departmentalised. Until that time their salaries and pay scales should 69 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 .. 70

be enhanced, The Principle of equal pay for equal work which is enshrined in the Constitution must be strictly adhered to in their regard. I have one last point to make and that arises from some remark made by the Minister in the other House. 1 would like to have a clarification from the Minister as to what is Government's attitude towards established, recognised courier services that are operating in the country. There are services which are recognised by the Indian Airlines and also by the IATA which are used even by the nationalised banks and they really do not compete with the postal authorities. I can understand that so far as postal service is concerned in the field of private mail the post office has a monopoly, the State has a monopoly. But in respect of so many documents which are time sensitive, whicii are to be delivered to there destinations within a definite period of time and in which the person interested is willing to pay much much more—they pay upto Rs. 250—300 in order that a particular invoice or a particular cheques of theirs can reach, say, Madras tomorrow, about which I cannot say that if I send it through normal postal service, it will happen what is the attitude of Government towards these courier services? I think that the world over these courier services are growing. All that should be done is to re- gulate them. I can understand and proper recognition of these courier services, but any attitude which seeks to suppress them which seeks to force them to close down would not be the right attitude and certainly not for a government which seeks to lead the country to modernity. Tha nk you.

71 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; Now The House stands adourned for lunch and will meet at 2.25 P.M. The House then adjourned for launch at twenty-six minutes past one of the clock.

The House reassembled after lunch at twenty-seven minutes past two of the clock, the Vice-Chairman (Shri H. Hanumanthappa) in the Chair. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA): The House will continue with the discussion on the Indian Post Office (Amendment) Bill and the Indian Post Office (Second Amendment) Bill, 1986. Shri Satya Prakash Malaviya.

73 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.l Bill, 1986 74

75 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA (Anmdt.) Bill, 1986 76

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA): Please conclude now. You have already exceeded the 50 per cent of the allotted time,. Today is the last day and we have to transact a lot of business. SHRI SANTOSH KUMAR SAHU (Orissa): SHRI SATYA PRAKASH MALAVI- Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I rise to support the YA; I am concluding. Bills. But at the same time, I would like to say one thing that though this amendment has come on the original Indian Post Office Act, 1898, it requires a thorough rethinking. The piecemeal legislation cannot improve the postal services in this country. Since the Act was passed much water has flown in the river of Ganges. Lot of postal services have been expanded and lot of aspirations have been fulfilled. As a mass-media for the poor man for news and views from the distant land, the postal services plays a great role not only in this country but in other countries also. Now coming to the Bill When we see rise in prices of various postal items, we have to think one thing, the people would not have grumbled if the core efficient postal services would have increased simultaneously. So people would not have felt because the rise in prices is synchronising with efficient postal services. Unfortunately in our country today the position of Postal Department is not good and it has not planned for future proection. It has a lop-sided development. I would like to show the con- tradictions in its apparent thinking of de- velopment. Sir. if we go through the Sixth Five Year Plan, we find that they tried to develop more postal services in hilly and backward regions and the target was to open up 7,000 or some odd post offices in the distant places. Now, they wanted to open even rural postal agencies in 9625 villages. But now as the Committee has said and we also see in the newspapers that they are going to -77 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndi.) Bill, 1986 . 78

abolish some of the Post offices. Whether it is are going in the backward direction. In the true or not but it creates confusion in the Sixth Five Year Plan their aim was to open up minds of the people. certain communication centres in certain So far as expansion of postal service is areas, then why are they going back in the concerned, I would like to inform the hon. Seventh Five Year Plan? Minister that postal service is not only' a Then, Sir, many questions were raised commercial service but it is also a social about Section 126 about the interception ary service. This fact has been emphasise'd in the other things. It is true that sometimes it is House by the Members from both the sides. necessary to intercept certain communications When 40 per cent of the people in our country, because of security reasons but I feel, the hon. still remains below the poverty line, and they Minister will consider that as a general clause, want information from the distant places, mes- this is a broad power. There must be some sages from their relatives or they want to send limit to it. It reads as: Any officer, authorised some news or information to their relatives, it by the State Government or the Central is necessary that they must depend upon the Government, they may specify, even a postal service. In the postal department, there gazetted officer or a responsible officer so that is no future projection. The postal department any interception which is for the safety of the should also have the future projection in the same way in which these are had by the other country or creating! commission of departments. Though many postal services are disturbance must have been checked by a in existence, but when people want to send responsible man so that there will be certain their communications, from on.; place to checks as is done in other laws also. another place, it takes a lot of time to reach its Another point which has been raised is about destination. Because of this communication newspapers. The Minister may consider- the gap, people are frustrated and this gap has question of the newspapers, especially the local created disturbance. Sir, the administrative set newspapers the small newspapers, the language up must have decentralization. Unfortunately, newspapers which play a vital role in we have centralised everything in the Director 'disseminating . 'information to the people and if General of Post Offices, and the various their rates are increased, the difficulty will be offices headed by Postmaster Generals or other felt by the readers. It will affect our newspaper senior offices, they have virtually no power. circulation. The newspaper readers will have to Without the approval of the Director General, pay more. These things must be taken into they cannot employ even a news staff. Then consideration. how can they expect efficient service? The Lastly, I would like to say that the attitude R.M.S. sorting division has been abolished. that this is a commercial service organisation They have introduced a new system instead. is a wrong attitude. It is a social service and it But have they made a stu'dy? I do not say— should be taken as such. When 40 per cent of you keep this system. But if the department the people live below the poverty-line, and has any knowledge, then let the department when people demand a more efficient postal make a study whether by abolishing the old service, the Planning Commission must give a system and by introducing the new system, the certain priority for this service. Arid the Postal male delivery has been quicker or it has been Department must make proper projections. delayed. Let them make a study of that aspect. They are running the service with dearth of In the Sixth Five Year Plan, they opened up funds. Now for the first time, it is being post offices for the development of tribal admitted that there is a private courier service. areas. In Orissa, Berhampur B.G. Sorting Why is there a private courier service? If the Division, which was there, they have abolished postal service functions efficiently, why it. 16 MLAs and MPs of that State have should anybody go in for a private courier ser- written about this to the hon. Minister. I vice and pay more? People go in for it think, in this way, they 79 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHAl (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 80

[Shri Santosh Kumar Sahni] when they see that in the regular postal service, letters take a longer time to reach their destination and it is not certain also whether they will reach the destination. Sir it is necessary that a new outlook should be developed. There should be better management. There should be more decentralisation. There should be more thinking at the State level. Just as Railways and other organisations, which were also Central organisations, have improved, we must improve this organisation. Members have spoken about the extra-departmental staff. It is a new type of innovation by our Postal Depart- ment. If we do not see their suffering, if We do not see their horrible economic conditions, we can never expect efficient service in the Postal Department. If we want to have efficient service, we have to pay them adequately and then extract work from them. A hungry man cannot be forced to work more. So I humbly submit that it requires a new outlook, a new vision and a new projection so that the postal service can be expande'd and its efficiency improved and we can usher in a new era and bring about a qualitative improvement in the postal service, at least to the rural poor and the masses of India. Thank you.

81 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] 9Amndt.) Bill, 1986 82

SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA (West Bengal): Mr. Chairperson, I rise to oppose the motion totally and thoroughly because, in my opinion, this Bill is having a political bias, a political bias in the sense that it is going to be misused and 'misuse' is the only proper use of the Bill. It is most unfortunate that the British legacy is sought to be carried forward by the independent Government of India after thirty- six years of India's freedom. The British Go- vernment had used this weapon against the Congress workers and leaders. Unfortunately, the victim of that draconian Act seeks to enact that act to use the 83 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndi.) Bill, 1986 84

[Shri Gurudas Das Gupta] SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA; Act against their own political opponents in a The point is ... free India. That is the whole tragedy. In my AN HON. MEMBER: He remembers the opinion, this is against the Fundamental Right love letters. (Interruptions). of a private citizen because it seeks to peep into the privacy of the citizens. Letters are SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA: I do not sought to be opened and opened by an officer. go into the love letters, but I go into the Some one from the other side was arguing that problem. You go into the comody and the right to open a letter should be given to a tragedy of love letters and that is your responsible person. It means that you want a problem. I do not go into it. It is your job to responsible work to be done by a responsible go into that problem. But my job is to point officer of the Postal Department. I do not out at even after arming itself with so much know whether this Bill will be challenged. of Draconian powers the Government has not Even if it is not challenged, jn my opinion, it been able to improve the efficiency of is an infringement on the Fundamental Right intelligence system. You have the NSA, you of a citizen to communicate with a relation or have the ESMA, and you have the powers to friend of his and the enactment of the Act open letters. So many powers you are having. enables the Government to know what I have But even then the intelligence system of the written to a person the letter is addressed to. present Government has not improved at all Therefore, it is an infringement on the as we have seen in the case of the happenings Fundamental Right of the private citizens. It in Delhi. goes without saying that the letters of the Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, while discus opponents, that is the Left political party sing the Second Amendment Bill, I would members, were opened over the decades and say that it is a budget before the Bud their telephones were tapped. This was not get. The Government led by Mr. Rajiv something connected with the Emergency, but Gandhi has of late taken to the high- this was there even before the Emergency. technology of presenting budgets before the Even before that our letters were censored. Budget is presented before Parliament When I was arrested under the Defence of and, in adherence to that principle, they India Rules, my letter to my wife was have presented before the House or censored. Therefore, it is not something that is announced outside the House a number new. (Interruptions). What I am saying is that of increases, increase in the railway it is a gift of the Emergency and it has been freight rates, increase in excise duties and resorted to by the Congress Government even increase in the postal rates now. All on the day it came to power. Therefore, an this is being done in order to give the illegal Act is sought to be legalised by an ensuing Budget a presenable look and amendment, a political amendment, which the to hide real deficit. Therefore, this Government has thought it fit fo bring high-technology which the Prime Minister is forward. The Government has come forward so fond of is being resorted to in our country with an amendment after SQ many years to im- now. That is why I say that what is made to prove the efficiency of the Department which appear to be innocuous is not so. It is very we are discussing now. generous of them! that they have not Madam Chairperson . . . increased the price of the post card. But the increase in the price of the envelope is going THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. to hit the unemployed youth because the un- HANUMANTHAPPA); You address me as employed youth can only apply for jobs in Vice-Chairman. Probably you are still envelopes and not on post cards. Therefore, remembering the letter you wrote to your wife this increase is going to hit the rising army of the unemployed in the country. We are discussing the 3 P.M. department which has refused to increase the number of post 85 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 86 offices. How long is this ban on opening new AN HON. MEMBER: You still re- post office going to continue? You are member him? increasing the tariff. But where is he expansion of the service? Without expansion SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA; of the service, the cost of the service is You remember only one Gandhi, that is, sought to be increased. Mr. Chairperson, I Rajiv Gandhi. You do not remember any other Gandhi. (Interruptions) only believe that the postal department as it is called is the most worthless department the SHRI NIRMAL ' CHATTERJEE Government has at the moment. I shall not (West Bengal); Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I quote, but I shall only remind the hon. wish the Government also learn. They have Minister that it took one month for. a letter learnt from recent happenings in countries from the Prime Minister to reach Shantini- outside ours. It has been discovered, ketan. I am not going to quote that. But Sir, that through private correspondences whenever you post a letter, it takes an some truth has been established that unreasonable time to reach even a very small Reagan was getting finance from distance. That is the whole truth. There is no Iran and he was utilizing that regularity of delivery. One cannot be sure finance against Nicaragua and in whether the letter will reach the place it is Pakistan. Now, Sir, the largest democracy meant for. Therefore, the whole system that should learn from the strongest one. If we know as the postal department is worth- private correspondences can be looked into, if less. (Time bell rings) And the increase in truth about what private people are price is a premium on inefficiency. corresponding in terms of Gandhiji's vision of truth is allowed to come out, there will be Lastly, Sir, the deficit in the Budget of the many skeletons in the cupboard which will be postal department cannot be the reason for out. Therefore, Sir, I do not understand increase of tariff, because the postal why from this side there is opposition to this department is considered to be ar essential what they call draconian. But, Sir, the service. In a Welfare State the essential Minister of State for Communications is very services are to be subsidised instead of being wise when he talks of the amount of deficit. a burden on the general usgrs and consumers. The Finance Minister tells us to look into the Therefore, Mr. Chairperson, I oppose the Bills percentages. Now he does not look into the and want them to be thrown away lock, stock percentage. He looks in absolute terms. and barrel. The political bias of the Bill be What are 10 paise? Let us try to calculate in immediately charged, and I believe that the percentages because it is the percentage that draconian measure of the Bill will be objected will have impact On the income and to by all sections of the House. I believe that expenditure of our countrymen. The there are people on the other side who are percentages are these. While it was 15 silent, who cannot speak out because of the paise, it has been raised to 50 paise. I fear of whip. I believe that damocracy is a understand the rationale here also. On books sacred thing, not to be protected only by and sample packets, the increase is from 30 Members belonging to this side. Democracy paise to 50 paise. I think it is the concern of the country can only be protected if all of the Minister that books should be leaner people who believe in democracy join hands so that the people can read them much more together. quickly and less time is lost. Therefore, it has been raised from 15 paise to 50 paise, an increase of more than 200 per cent. The With this, Mr. Chairperson, I again put charges have been increased from 20 on record my strongest disapproval of the paise to 40 paise on every, 10 grammes or draconian measure that the Government fraction thereof resulting in an increase of seeks to introduce now here. (Interruptions') 100 per cent. It is in this percentage that there will be impact on the cost of living. Perhaps the Minister is aware of this kind of calculation. 87 The Indian Pan Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 88

[Shri Nirmal Chatterjee] SHRI NIRMAL CHATTERJEE: What Also the price of registered newspa would you write back, Minister? (Inter- pers would increase. The Minister, in ruptions) his democratic mood, knows that 50 SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: If they per cent or more of the people are near do not want me to write back, I will not write or under the poverty line who do not back to them. I will take back my assurance. read newspapers. So, it does not (Interruptions), affect them. Therefore, this particular Act cannot be considered to be very undemocratic. Now, Sir ... (Interruptions) About books, once again he can claim- that he has not acted against the majority because they SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA: You have succeeded in keeping the majority of our write to us but please see that your letter people illiterate and books do not matter to reaches us in time. them. Therefore, there need not be any fuss. SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV : You But there is a very minor point. But in the rural have criticised so much. You do not know tea shops, some people who are not that poor, what your Government, is doing in West some people whom you have failed to keep Bengal about interruption. And you are telling illiterate, do buy a newspaper and read it out to this, I have got the records with me. I have got many others. Now I appreciate that the letters of how the Opposition Government difficulty certainly is that while the All lndia (Interruptions) So, don't try to speak in this Radio and the Doordarshan will project nobody manner. Sir, I do not like to enter into any else but the Prime Minister, the newspapers by controversy. First, I would like to. mistake say certain things not exactly favourable to the Prime Minister or the party SHRI LAL K. ADVANI Sir, this is a very and therefore, it is necessary that although the significant point that he has made that this people are illiterate, although the people are kind of practice of interception of mail is below the poverty line, even by means of their being carried even by the State Governments. ears, they should not get in touch with the So, till now we thought that it is the newspapers or the books. Sir, what is the fuss? prerogative and monopoly of the Central There need be no fuss? This is the character of Government. But we would like to be the Government of India and unless all of us enlightened further on this. unanimously, along with the people, can say let us bid goodbye to this Government and have a SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: new Government, these kinds of things would The hon. Member does not know. Mr. continue. Therefore, Sir, I am not astonished. Gurupadaswamy himself has brought a Therefore, we oppose it. compIaint, and it is not wrong to the extent. He himself knows. And they are a part and SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: Sir, I parcel of that Government in Karnataka. They am grateful to the hon. Members who have are supporting that Government 'there. participated in the debate. Most of them have given valuable suggestions. Some of them SHRI LAL K. ADVANI; Who told you have also put forward certain criticism about that? the Bill and the tariff. As the time at my SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV : 1 feel disposal is very short, I will like to go into so. Of late, we have taken out. That must be some of the important points only which have the latest ... (Interruptions) been raised. I do not say that the other points are not important. I assure the hon. Members SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA- Does the that I shall write back to them individually Postal Department belong to the State about the other points that have been raised. Government? (Interruptions)

SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV Sir, about the Bill, more or less three points mainly have been objected to by Mem. 89 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 90 bers, even from our Party One is that Section "(2) If any doubt arises as to the 9 allout the 'newspaper' and why it has been existence of a public emergency, or as to kept al the discretion of the Government. Now whether any act done under subsection (1) was the existing rule says that to avail of this in the interest of the public safety or special rate for news papers, the publication tranquility, a certificate of the Central has to be within 31 days. Now we are getting Government or, as the case may be, of the applications from persons who are publishing State Government shall be conclusive proof on papers, bi-monthly as well as quarterly. The the point." idea oil deleting the existing clause and making it at the discretion of the Government Sir, this is the main point on which, tha hon. is not to restrict it further rather to expand it to Member, Mr. Atal Bihari Vajpayee, moved a those newspapers who are now publishing Bill in the other House, and he was insisting quarterly or bimonthly. So, this fear should that this one clause must not be there. And he not be there in the mind of the Member. Our also suggested certain other thing that the idea is not to restrict, rather we want to order of the court should be taken, and it expand that' scope to other quarterly should be given in writing. Now, by deleting newspapers and which are being published. this sub-clause 2, if a letter is intercepted, the And they are quite a number in the country. person who will intercept the letter, will give in writing the reason for his doing so and his SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE; In reason is subject to proceedings in the law that case, why not make your intention court if the aggrieved person goes to a court of clear in the Bill? law. In the event of the aggrieved person going to court. the person who intercepts or gives order for interception, has to answer in SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV : Mr. the court of law and if the court is not satisfied Vajpayee always tries to mistrust us. with that reason, it can not only order for (Interruptions) Sir, on every point they stoppage of interception, but it can also punish mistrust thes Government. People have trus. the person who intercepts. Deletion of this ted us and people know that we will not clause is in order to give powers to the court misuse it. (Interruptions) Sir, the next point and to the aggrieved person to get redress which has been opposed is about Section 26. from the court of justice. While doing so, the And Mr. Advani has also mentioned certain Government has taken into account the views report of the Press Commission. Let me say expressed by the hon. Members in the House. what the Act is now. Section 26 of the Indian Many hon. Members have said that article Post Office Act, 1898, as it stands today, is as 19(2) is unconstitutional; but Mr, Advani did follows: not say it was unconstitutional but he said it was not democratic. But Mr. Das Gupta called "Section 26(1). On the occurrence of it unconstitutional and also some others. In any public emergency, or in the interest of this Act we have added the words, as per-the the public safety or tranquility, the recommendations of the Law Commission, the Central Government, r,r a .State sovereignty, the integrity of India, the security Government, or any officer specially of the State, friendly relations with a foreign authorized in this behalf by the Central or State or public order, or the words like persons the State Government, may, by order in who incite the commission of any offence. writing, direct that any postal article or class These are the words taken from article 19(2) or description of postal articles in course of of the Constitution whereas in 19(1) there is a transmission by post shall be intercepted or rider given, and we have gone by that article detained, or shall be disposed of in such and we have not done anything wrong. manner as the authority issuing the order ' may direct." Many Members are worried and have raised the point that their love letters aire And there is another clause, clause (2) which says : 91. The Indian Posi Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 92

[Shri Santosh Mohan Deb] Another point which has been raised by one being intercepted. We have no intention, they hon. Member is about the multi-storeyed can do what they like. We are not going to buildings. It is the duty of the Government to intercept any love letters. 1 can assure in this deliver the letters to the addressee. And they august House. Nor are we interested to asked why we have amended the law. Sir, in intercept the letters of the political' parties. big cities, especially in the metropolitan cities, The national press in this country is very it is seen that in the multistoreyed buildings, it active and is so efficient that all activities of is very difficult for the postman to deliver the the national parties are coming in thenational letters from door to door. Apart from that, press. There is. no need for us to intercept any there is a tendency to have pet dogs and it letters of ary political party or any political becomes very difficult for the postman to leader. But it should not be taken for grauttid enter. We have now amended the law. There that our postal department is trying to identify will he post boxes and the letters will be those people whose letters it is going to delivered there. This has been done not only to intercept. We are just carriers for the" public. curb the activities of the pets but we also want The information comes from the Central to see that letters are delivered in a proper Government or through their authorised manner. agencies in the States or in respective areas; Another point which has been raised is in and only then can we act. Postal department regard to the improvement in postal services. has nothing to do with interception and I can The question or efficiency has. been raised. assure you that the Government has no Here, I would like to place certain facts before intention whatsoever to intercept the letters of the House. I quite agree with what Mr. Nirmal those political parties, because I firmly believe Chatterjee has said. I am also a student of that none of the leaders who are in this august economics. He may be right from the point of House or in the other House, or amy office view of argument, but it is not practical. He bearer of a national party, is indulging in any expects that because it is a public utility activity which is contrary to the interests of service, it should be highly subsidised. There the integrity and sovereignty of the country, is a feeling among the Members of the House and I think they should not be unnecessarily that it is not being subsidised. I will place afraid of it. Of course, they are trying to say certain facts before the House and I will appeal that something has happened in the past. . . . to * them to think over the whole scenario. SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE : Even now it is happening, Now, in the postal department, with the existing tariff and the existing staff pattern, we SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV : Mr. incurred a loss of R 9s.0.93 crores in 1982-83. Vajpayee, you are a bachelor; I can' assure In 1983-84, we incurred a loss of Rs. 82.30 you that your letters will not be intercepted. crores. In 1984-85—Rs. 136.09 crores and in Mr. Vajpayee is a national leader. I do not 1985-86— Rs. 163.55 crores. In case you do agree that his letters should be intercepted any not pass this Bill today, giving effect to the in- time. crease in tariff, our projected loss for the year SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: I do 1986-87 will Be Rs. 401 crores. Naturally, not blame the postal department; it is the people will say that this is because of Home Ministry which is intercepting letters. I inefficiency in the department. Let us see what can prove it. is the setup in the department now. We have 6 lakh employees. Out of this, 3 lakh are SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV : permanent and 3 lakh are extra-departmental What Mr, Vajpayee said is right. It is the employees. Home Ministry. But I had a talk with the Home Ministry officials and I shall convey the SHRI DIPEN GHOSH (West Bengal): Not feelings of the Members of the House to that permanent departmental. Ministry. I can assure the hon. Members, 93. The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 94

SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV; We The position is,, number handled is 2425 have 1,44,060 post offices in the country. Out lakhs, average cost of operation is 77.81 of this, the number of rural post offices is paise per item, revenue collected is 10.28 1,28,313 and the number of urban post paise on average per item and the deficit on offices is 15,747. If you see the volume of account of newspapers is Rs. 19 crores. This work handled—I will come to the courier is the position about small newspapers. service afterwards— the number of articles handled, including all types of letters, SHRI NIRMAL CHATTERJEE: If you registered and insured, is 1,198 crore pieces are a student of economics, why calculate the per year. The total number of registered average cost? Let us know the marginal cost articles handled is 3,042. The number of and then we will see what happens. money orders is 1,288 lakhs and the value Rs, 1,801 crores. SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: If I am to answer it, we shall have a debate on it. Even after increase of the present tariff we A question may be asked, why should we shall be able to cover only Rs. 3 crores to the increase the rate and why should we not get point of Rs. 16.30 crores stil) we have to the budgetary support for this deficit of Rs. subsidise. 401 crores. I would like to inform hon. Members about the correct position in regard Now you have raised the question of to the increase. Let us take the post card. books, etc. About book, pattern and sample We have not increased the price of the packets, the position is like this. Number post-card. Mr. Nirmal Chatterjee said that handled 2864 lakhs, cost of operation 82.4 we are increasing one by one. He said paise on average per item, revenue realised that Rajiv Gandhi is seen and heard only on 44.08 paise on average per item and deficit on the TV and Radio, and newspapers also will account of book, pattern and sample packets not reach the people because they are is Rs. 11 crores. writing anti-Congress. I will tell you to what extent we are subsidising the I am sure, now the Members will say, why newspapers. Sir, the number of post-cards don't you reduce the cost and improve the handle in a year is 9,968 lakhs. The cost of efficiency? 83 per cent of the total budget of printing and handling-expenditure on staff, the postal department goes for the employees. officers, expenditure on carrying the mail by air, rail and so on-is 65.17 paise per card, SHRI DIPEN GHOSH; For whom? Is whereas the price of a post. curd is only 15 it for employees? paise. We have not increased the price of post- card (Interruption) I am coming to every item. Somebody said-tha it is a welfare SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV; Yes. Government. Even Mrs. Pratibha Singh said that we should think more of the statutory Many Members have very rightly poiut-ed service. Deficit for the postcard, as it is today, out why we are not increasing the postal if the traffic it what it is, is Rs. 46.92 crores. facilities in rural areas, what action we are For letter cards (inland letters), we have not going to take on the Savoor Committee, whtt increased the rate. The number handled is the fate wil| be of the extra departmental 9738 lakhs, the cost of printing and handling is employees and also why the service are not 70.63 paise per inland card, the cost of inland improved further. is 35 paise and the deficit on account of inland letters is Rs. 34.70 crores. About Savoor Committee report, I can say, T have also said in the other House, that the Government has received the re-port. It is For registered newspapers, many Members under examination, but we have very much have said that the cost of newspaper will go sympathy towards these extra departmental up if the postage rates are increased. staff. Nothing will be done which would affect either the rural post offices or the staff. We shall take care and 95 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) BilI, 1986 96

[Shri Santosh Mohan Deb] position to give better service and I assure the I assure the Members that the Postal De hon. Members that though all is not wel) with partment is live to the situation. The re this Department, I do agree, but we are taking port of the Committee is not the final word. utmost care to see that this Department's We are looking ino it. There are certain working improves. With these words, I good points in this Committee's report. We request you to pass these Bills. are trying to streamline and implement these points, but this will not affect the THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. present position of the staff and we will try HANUMANTHAPPA); I shall first put the to accommodate them also. The salary pat amendment moved by Shri Satya Prakash tern has been set for them. Even they are Malaviya. The question is: paid part time. They should get it at the pro-rata rate of the permanent staff. This 1. "That the Bill further to amend tho is also under consideration of the Regard Indian Post Office Act, 1898, be referred to ing the courier service, the House is divid a Select Committee of the Rajya Sabha ed . Some say, why it is being allowed while consisting of the following members, others say that it should be al namely: lowed. I must make it abun 1. Shri Virendra Verma dantly clear that the Government 2. Shri J. P. Goyal is not against the private courier ser vice, but the Department has got the 3. Shri Jagdambi Prasad Yadav monopoly of carrying letters and that we 4. Shri Chaturanan Mishra shall pot allow the private couriers to do. 5. Dr. Bapu Kaldate We shall see that in such cases if they carry letters, they are intercepted. Documents, 6. Shri B. Satyanarayan Reddy parcels private couriers can take, we are not 7. Shri Sharad Yadav going to interfere. We want, especially the 8. Shri V. Gopalsamy Prime Minister wants that there should be a healthy competition. So, we want that 9. Shri Suraj Prasad there should be healthy competition. We 10, Shri Gurudas Das Gupta 11. Shri already introduced speed post service. Satya Prakash Malaviya We have now started it in 15 places. We are going to increase it in other areas. The with instructions to report by the first day of time-lag may be increased and thereby we the next Session." want to bring in healthy competition. This also improve the departmental activi The motion was negatived. ties further. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: The more you will HANUMANTHAPPA); I shall now put the intercept the mail, the more mail will be sent motion moved by the hon. Minister to vote. through private couriers. SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV. The The question is; hon. Member bas an illusion. If he thinks of sending his extra important letters thro-private "That the Bill further to amend the couriers. There the Government has also the Indian Pot Office Act, 1898, as passed by right. the Lok Sabha, be taken into con- SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: The first Bill will sideration." encourage the other one. The motion was adopted SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: As the time is very short and there are two THE VICE-CHAIRMAN 'SHRI H. amendments to which I have to reply, I do not HANUMANTHAPPA); We shall now take want to further elaborate. on the point. All that up clause-by-clause consideration of the I would like to say is that with the proposed Bill. tariff increase we will be in a Clauses 2 to 5 were added to the Bill. 97 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] {Amndt.) Bill, 1900 yo

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA): We shall now take up clause 6. There is one amendment by Shri Vajpayee.

Clause 6 Insertion of new Section 4A SHRl ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: I big to move:

1. "That at page 3, line 4-5, for the wards 'the Central Government' the words 'the Chief Judicial Magistrate' be substituted.

99 The Indian Post Office [ RAJYA SABHA ] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 100

Clause 9—Amendment of Section 9

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- NUMANTHAPPA): We shall now take up clause 9. There is one amendment by Mr. Atal SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: I have Bihari Vajpayee. to censor the letters, Sir. SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: Sir, I THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA). You have already move: made the commitment that you will not "That at page 3, for lines 35 to 37, the censor Atal Bihari ji's. following be substituted, namely:—

'(a) that it is published in numbers at intervals of not more than 31 days,'

Sir, the amendment seeks to restore the old position and I do not see any reason why the matter should be left for the framing of the rules.

The question was proposed SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV Sir, The question was proposed during my speech I have already said that the idea of this is better service. The rule will be SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV; Sir, the framed and I will send it to him and he will be suggestion given by Atal Bihari Vajpayeeji is satisfied. not acceptable to me because whatever we have done, we have done after taking the THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- views of the Law Commission and the Law NUMANTHAPPA): Now I shall put the Ministry also. The suggestion that he has amendment moved by Mr. Atal Bihari given could have been a better one but, Vajpayee to vote. unfortunately, it is very time-consuming. Now it is not acceptable and I regret if very much. SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: I (Interruptions) am not pressing it, Sir, I am very reasonable. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. *The amendment was, by leave, withdrawn HANUMANTHAPPA): Now I shall put the amendment moved by Mr. Atal Bihari THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- Vajpayee to vote. The question is: NUMANTHAPPA): The question is: "That at page 3, line 4-5, for the words "That clause 9 stand part of the Bill." The 'the Central Government' the words the motion was adopted. Chief Judicial Magistrate' be substituted." Clause 9 was added to the Bill. The motion was negatived. Clauses 10 to 15 were added to the Bill. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. Clause 16—Power to intercept postal HANUMANTHAPPA): I shall now put articles in certain cases clause 6 to vote. The question is: THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- "That clause 6 stand part of the Bill." NUMANTHAPPA): We shall now take up The motion was adopted. clause 16. Amendment No. 3 is by Mr. V. Gopalsamy. He is not present. Clause 6 was added to the Bill. Clauses 7 and 8 were added to the Bill. *For the text of amendment, vide col. supra. 101 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] {Amndt.) Bill, 1986 102

SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: He has been arrested. How can he come to the House?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- NUMANTHAPPA); It is all right. There are two amendments by Mr. Atal Bihari Vajpayee. SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE: Sir, I move:

"That at page 6,— (a) line 8, the words of public safety or tranquillity' be deleted.

(b) lines 9-12 the words 'friendly re- lations with foreign States or public order or for preventing incitement to the commission of any offence or on the oc- currence of any public emergency be deleted."

5 "That at page 6, after line 15 the fol lowing provisos be inserted, namely:

'Provided that the person or the asso- ciation of persons whose postal articles are to be intercepted or detained shall be so informed in writing along with the reasons for doing so;

Provided further that a panel of retired High Court Judges presided over by a sitting judge of a High Court will have to be satisfied before hand that any act be done with regard to specific individuals or institutions or associations of any kind is in the interest of the sovereignty, integrity and security of India.

".... if satisfied that it is necessary or expedient so to do in the interests of public safety or tranquility, the sovereignty and integrity of India, the security 103 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Sill, 1986 104

[Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee] of the State, friendly relations with foreign States or public order or for preventing incitement to the commission of any offence The question was proposed

"Provided that the person or the as- sociation of persons whose postal articles are to be intercepted or detained shall be so informed in writing along with the reasons for doing so; "Provided further that a panel of retired High Court Judges presided over by a sitting judge of a High Court will have to be satisfied before hand that any act to be done SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: Whatever with regard to specific individuals or we have done, we have done under the institutions or associa-tions of any kind is in Constitution and have gone by the advice of the the interest of the sovereignty, integrity and Law Ministry. Shri Vajpayee has said that it security of India." should be done through the judicial system comprising of retired High Court Judges. Sir, we have full faith in the judiciary and even in the retired or existing judges, but we cannot go in a way which will be time-consuming. Then the basic purpose for which it will be done wil be frustrated.

I don't know why every now-and-then the Opposition is trying to project that they are being doubted, when I am saying that they are not being doubted for their integrity. It is very unfortunate.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- NUMANTHAPPA): The question is:

4. "That at page 6,—

(a) line 8, the word 'of public safety or tranquility' be deleted.

(b) lines 9-12 the words 'friendly re lations with foreign States or public o- der or for preventing incitement to the THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- commission of any offence, or on the NUMANTAPPA); Mr. Minister, do you want occurrence of any public emergency' be to add anything? deleted." 105 The Indian Post Office [10 DEC. 1986] {Amndt.) Bill, 1986 106

Also the question is: AN HON. MEMBER; It is not there. 5. "That at page 6, after line 15 the PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: If it is not following provisos be inserted, there, I cannot help it. I am appealing on two namely:— grounds. Sir, even the hon. Minister has gone on record as saying that the amendment Provided that the person or the asso- moved by Shri Vajpayee regarding the ciation of persons whose postal articles judicial officials is a better one. But the only are to be intercepted or detained shall be plea that has been taken is that it is time- so informed in writing along with the consuming Therefore, it is something which reasons for doing so; needs to be deliberated upon and discussed in Provided further that a penal of retired detail. That can be done not on the floor of High Court Judges presided over by a the House, not by the hasty conclusions sitting judge of a High Court will have to arrived at by the officials who prepared the be satisfied beforehand that any act to be Bill, but in discussions in the joint select done with regard to speci-individuals or Committee. Therefore, I would request the institutions or associations of any kind is Minister even at this stage to consider it. in the interest of the sovereignty, integrity and security of India." Secondly, he was not able to explain the rationale. He was very eloquent n explaining The question was proposed the rationale as to why he has dropped 26(2), but he has not been able to explain the THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- rationale as to why 26 has been put on the UMANTHAPPA): I shall now put Clause Statute Book, in the entire speech the only 16 to the vote of the House. thing he said was that we have consulted the The motion was adopted. Law Ministry. After all the Law Ministry is a part of the Central Government. And they Clause 16 was added to the Bill. have not con- suited them on a wider basis. Clause 17 to 19 were added to the Bill. Then another point, the argument against section 26 had been given in the year 1898 by Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the no less than Shri Anantacharyulu. I would like were added to the Bill. to remind the Members on the other side that he was the President of the Indian National PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: Even at thi: Congress in the 19th century at the Nagpur stage I am standing to appeal to the good Congress. Therefore, what was argued against sense of the Government to consider the this particular section and now clause 16 in possibility of referring it to the Select this House at this stage was done by the Committee. For this I advance two reasons. President of the Indian National Congress which reflected the philosophy of the Indian National Con. gress. I would like to ask the THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- Minister, and the Government and all the NUMANTHAPPA) : That motion has been Members on the other side, whether they have negalived. given up al] those great ideals and principles for which the Congress stood? If the Congress PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: It is all President felt ft was necessary to oppose this right. I am requesting even at this stage. in a free India and in a democratic India, I see Please listen to me. no reason as to why there should be a clause like this. For this there is no explanation. AN HON. MEMBER; But it has been negatived. Therefore, in the name of Congress ideology to which you are all supposed to belonging, in PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: It does not the name of non-discussion on a rationale matter. I have a right even at this stage to basis, I appeal. I said I am appealing to the good sense of the Government even at this stage.

107 The Indian Post Office [RAJYA SABHA] (Amndt.) Bill, 1986 108 [Prof. C. Lakshmanna] once again appeal SHRI DIPEN GHOSH; I said that he may to the Minister and to the Government to precede me. reconsider and send it to the Select THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- Committee. NUMANTHAPPA): Then please be brief. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: I have heard with NUMANTHAPPPA): Shri Dipen Ghosh. rapt attention when our Minister of State for SHRI DIPEN GHOSH : Let Mr. Advani Communications was replying to the debate precede me. which had taken place throughout the day on these two Bills. SHRl LAL K. ADVANI; Mr. Vice- Chairman, Sir, the hon. Minister while The main purpose of bringing this am- referring to the increase in the tariff identified ending Bill to the indian Post Offices Act, point-by-point what is the relative burden 1898 is to secure the right by the Government falling on the "Government in respect of each to intercept the mails in the interest of the item. For example, postcards and newspapers. preservation of national unity and integrity, I confine myself only to newspapers and I public order, tranquility and so on and so wonder whether the Minister is aware that till forth. But, Sir, this Government's credibility 1982 for the small newspapers, the postal in the matter of preserving or maintaining tariff was only 2 paise just, 2 paise mind you national unity and integrity has reached the when from 2 paise it was increased to 5 paise lowest ever ebb. We have seen this in the past in 1982. This is what the Press Commission at the hands of the forces who want to said at that time : (the Press Commission is an destabilise the country, one Prime Minister important body, as far as I am aware this was assassinated and there was an attempt on particular recommendation has not been the life of the present Prime Minister. I heard rejected by the Government). "We are of the Mr. Darbara Singh saying that there were view that increase in the postal tariff hits small mails in reply to Mr. Vajpayee's even this and medium newspapers whicii have to make Government could not intercept the arms use of the postal facility. Big newspapers in being smuggled into the gurudwaras and now most cases have their own arrangements for they want to secure power for them to transportation and distribution of their copies. intercept the male for maintaining and We recommend that the Government should preserving the national unity and integrity. sympathetical. ly consider the demand for Even a child will laugh at it. The whole in- lowering the postal tariff for newspapers." At tention of bringing this Bill is only to interfere that time from 2 paise it was increased to 5 with the democratic Opposition which is paise. Now from 5 paise it is going to be being given to this Government. So, Sir, on increat-ed to 15 paise, virtually it means a 750 behalf of the Opposition, I declare that we per cent increase in the course of 4 years. This cannot associate ourselves in passing of this is the amount of burden that has been imposed obnoxious piece of legislation. on small and medium newspapers. I regard the hike as anti-press and anti-information. It is an (At this stage, some hon. Members left age of information and I am really sorry that the Chamber) we should have a tariff of this kind. I would once again appeal to him to reconsider this. SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir. T have nothing to say on THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- the Bill and I beg to move: NUMANTHAPPA): Now... "That the Bill be passed." SHRI DIPPEN GHOSH Sir, I want to speak. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- NUMANTHAPPA) : The question is : THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- NUMANTHAPPA): You gave your chance "That the Bill be passed." The to Mr. Advani. motion was adopted. 109. the Shipping development [ 10 DEC. 1986] (Abolition) Bill, 1986 Uo Fund Committee THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. war. One of these was getting up of the NUMANTHAPPA): Now, 1 will' put the Shipping Development Fund Committee second Bill to vote. The question is (SDFC) in 1959, initially to finance acquisi- tion of ships and subsequently fishing traw- "That the Bill further to amend the Indian lers, from indigenous shipyards and from Post Office Act, 1898, as passed abroad. Over the years, apart from promo, ting the Lok Sabha, be taken into consi- a significant increase in national toa-uage both deration." in the general shipping sector and in the fishing trawler industry, the SDFC has contributed significantly to the emergence of The motion was adopted. India as an important maritime nation in the developing world. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI H. HA- NLMANTHAPPA): We shall take up Clanse- In the past decade shipping industry has by-Clause consideration of the Bill. There is passed through a very difficult period because one amendment but the mover is of world-wide recession and sharp decline in no present. freight rates. This has imposed a considerable financial burden on the SDFC and has affected Clause 2 and the Sehedule were added to its ability to finance new ship acquisitions. It the bill. has, therefore, become necessary to evolve a Clause 1, the Enacting of Formula and thr new financing mechanism for extending Title were added to the Bill. adequate support to shipping and trawler industries. After a careful review it has been SHRI SANTOSH MOHAN DEV: Sir, 1 decided by the Government to wind up the move; SDFC and to create a new financing agency in the place of SDFC which would have wider • "That the Bill be returned." financial resources and greater flxeibility of operations. The question was put and the motion was. adapted. We have already given an indtcation of the arrangements for the new financial agency being contemplated by Government, in the statement made in this House on 13th THE SHIPPING DEVELOPMENT FUND November, 1986, Action has been initiated to COMMITTEE (ABOLITION) BILL, 1986 establish the new institution.

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE The present Bill is intended to give effect DEPARTMENT OF EXPENDITURE IN to the decision to wind up SDFC. It is the THE MINISTRY OF FINANCE (SHRI B K. intention that on aboli-p.m tion of the GADHVI): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, on behalf shipping Development Fund and the SDFC, of Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh, I beg to the assets and liabilities should vest in the move: Government and that these should not be passed on to the new financing institution "That the Bill to abolish the Shipping direct, lest the new institution should start with Development Fund Committee constituted a heavy liability of carrying SDFC's losses in under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1958, and to its books which would in turn affect its provide for certain matters incidental thereto, capacity to raise funds to support shipping. It as passed by the Lok Sabha, be taken into is, therefore, envisaged that the new financial consideration," agency will manage the assets and liabilities as an agent of the Government. In all The Government of India has taken several contracts between the SDFC and agencies positive steps in the past with the primary within and outside India, Government of India object of building up a self-reliant merchant would step into- fleet, capable of meeting the needs of the country during peace and