Wednesday Volume 685 2 December 2020 No. 145

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 2 December 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 291 2 DECEMBER 2020 292

while people desperately want certainty and a deal. Can House of Commons the Secretary of State give us any assurances that next week’s Bill will not further undermine the Northern Wednesday 2 December 2020 Ireland protocol and the chances of a deal and the certainty and the stability that people so desperately want? The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Brandon Lewis: If the hon. Lady looks at the clauses PRAYERS in the Internal Market Bill, she will see that they are about protecting and delivering on the Good Friday agreement to ensure that there are no [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] borders. To deliver that, it is important that we have no Virtual participation in proceedings commenced border not just north to south, but east to west as well. (Order, 4 June). On the UK shared prosperity fund, if she looks at my [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] answer to the substantive question, she will see that I was very clear that the devolved authorities would be Mr Speaker: Order. I remind colleagues that a deferred part of that, but of course this is money over and above; Division will take place today. Members should be this is extra money that we will be looking to spend—in aware that the timings have reverted to between 11.30 am the same way that the EU has always been able to and 2 pm, though they continue to take place in the spend— once we have left the EU to ensure that those Members’ Library. Members will cast their votes by communities have the support that we have said they placing the completed Division slip in one of the ballot would have. boxes provided. If a Member has a proxy vote in operation, they must not vote in person in the deferred Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) [V]: Does my Division; their nominated proxy should vote on their right hon. Friend agree that any spending requirements behalf. I also remind colleagues of the importance of and demands made by and within social distancing during the deferred Division and ask would be enhanced and likely to receive a more welcome them to pick up a Division slip from the Vote Office and ear in the Treasury and elsewhere were the Executive to fill it in before they reach the Library if possible. The crack ahead and create fiscal council, result will be announced in the Chamber at a convenient which would act as a very convincing mouthpiece for moment after the Division is over. those pleas? Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a hugely Oral Answers to Questions important and very accurate point. I think we sometimes forget this but the fiscal council was actually first agreed back in the “Fresh Start” agreement of 2015 and NORTHERN IRELAND recommitted to in the “New Decade, New Approach” deal of January this year. I have been talking to the The Secretary of State was asked— Executive about this. I had hoped to see it up and running by the autumn. I think it is important that the Structural and Investment Funding: Transition Period Executive and the Department of Finance get on with this and deliver on it. It will help them for budgeting Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP): What recent purposes and ensure that, in the same way that we have discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the the Office for Budget responsibility and the Irish potential merits of devolving spending in Northern Government have an independent fiscal council, people Ireland of (a) structural and (b) investment funding can be clear about the transparency and understanding after the end of the transition period to the Northern of the money being spent in Northern Ireland. I think it Ireland Executive. [909534] would be the right thing to do, and I am looking forward to seeing the Executive deliver it as quickly as possible. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis): The UK shared prosperity fund will help to UK-EU Future Relationship: Businesses level up and create opportunities for people and places across the United Kingdom. The Government will John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP): What assessment he co-ordinate funding on a UK-wide basis, working with has made of the effect on businesses in Northern Ireland the devolved Administrations and local communities to of negotiations on the future relationship between the ensure that it is used most effectively. The Northern UK and the EU. [909535] Ireland Executive and the other devolved Administrations will be represented in the fund’s governance structures The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon to help target this funding to the people and places that Lewis): We want a relationship with the European Union are most in need. that is based on friendly co-operation between sovereign equals and centred on free trade. Wewill have a relationship Claire Hanna [V]: The spending of the shared prosperity with our European friends—one that is inspired by our fund, according to clauses in the United Kingdom shared history and values. The whole of the United Internal Market Bill, would override devolution, with Kingdom, including, of course, Northern Ireland, stands no duty to consult on spend in devolved areas. We know to benefit from such a trading relationship with the that the internal market Bill intends to breach international European Union. In fact, Northern Ireland businesses law, and yesterday it was indicated that a further breach have a huge potential under the Northern Ireland protocol, of international law was likely to come in the taxation and of course Northern Ireland will continue to enjoy Bill. Far from being limited and specific, it seems that tariff-free access to the EU market, alongside unfettered disregard for the Good Friday agreement is unlimited access to the whole of the UK. 293 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 294

John Mc Nally [V]: I hope you are well, Mr Speaker. Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson: I thank the Secretary of Scotland is the largest exporter of seed potatoes in State for that helpful response. I am sure that he will the single market. It is a product on which a great many agree that those who talk loudly about the Good Friday Northern Irish potato farmers rely. This has been placed agreement are the people who are threatening the economic under threat by the lack of equivalence between the UK prosperity of Northern Ireland by insisting on measures and the EU after the transition period. When will the that are completely unnecessary in terms of protecting Minister confirm a date on our attaining equivalence on the agreement. Will he therefore indicate what progress seed products? If he cannot give us a date, is that not has been made in securing a commitment from the EU more evidence that the Government do not care about to a significant grace period to allow Northern Ireland Scotland’s farming communities? businesses sufficient time to adjust to the new arrangements that will be introduced when the transition period ends on 31 December? Brandon Lewis: Actually, it is quite the contrary. The hon. Gentleman can look at the delivery of money last Brandon Lewis: The right hon. Gentleman identifies, week, for farmers particularly. That is evidence of the quite rightly, the importance of ensuring that there is no Government’sdetermination to deliver on our commitment border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. to, and our understanding of the importance of, the We have accepted the sanitary and phytosanitary checks. agriculture and farming community across the United We are working with the EU, and both the UK and EU Kingdom, with £315 million going to Northern Ireland have committed to that intensified process, as colleagues farmers. Through the Joint Committee, we are working will have seen, and to resolving all outstanding issues with the European Union on some of these final issues with the implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol, to ensure that we do have that free flow. We have been including securing the flexibilities that we need for trade saying to our partners and colleagues in the EU that from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. they need to play their part in being pragmatic about As I said, the discussions are ongoing. I hope that the ensuring that we continue to see that sensible free flow right hon. Gentleman will continue to understand that I of trade across the United Kingdom, as a sovereign am limited in what I can say as I do not want to nation. pre-empt the outcome of those discussions, but we continue to work closely with the Northern Ireland Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): You Executive around the practical implications and operational look well, Mr Speaker. delivery. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has been working with the Department of The Secretary of State will recognise the importance Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern to Northern Ireland businesses of getting agreement on Ireland, and with industry, traders, representative bodies the classification of qualifying goods and qualifying and local authorities to ensure that they are engaged, businesses as they relate to trade between Great Britain supported and ready for trading from January 2021. I and Northern Ireland within the UK single market. encourage any business that has not already done so to What progress has been made on securing such agreement sign up free with the Trader Support Service. and on defining at-risk goods, and what measures will the Government bring forward in legislation to ensure Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP) [V]: The that Northern Ireland businesses really do have unfettered Secretary of State will know of the anger among Northern access to the UK internal market? Irish businesspeople over the accusation by the ironically titled Minister for Efficiency and Transformation that Brandon Lewis: I should put it on record that I also they have their think you look well, Mr Speaker. “head stuck in the sand” On an equally serious note, as the right hon. Gentleman on Brexit. Only 30 days from the hard Brexit cliff edge, knows, this Government are committed to ensuring does the Secretary of State appreciate that most people that Northern Ireland businesses have unfettered access will have far more sympathy with Northern Irish to the rest of the United Kingdom. That is why we have businessman, Stephen Kelly, who suggests that it is the taken the steps that we have taken in legislating for the Government who have their “head stuck somewhere first phase of unfettered access; that is what those else”? Is it not the case that Northern Ireland businesses clauses in the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill are have simply been an afterthought in his Government’s for. We are building on and learning from the discussions chaotic hard Brexit? that we have had with businesses and the Northern Ireland Executive.Weare pushing hard to secure agreement Brandon Lewis: If only the hon. Lady was talking to with the EU on a number of outstanding issues that Northern Ireland businesses directly, as my team and I relate to the protocol, including that of at-risk goods. do regularly, most weeks. The Minister of State, Northern We accept that tariffs should be paid on goods moving Ireland Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester from Great Britain into the EU, but there should not be (Mr Walker), also engages with businesses in Northern any tariffs on internal UK movements that begin in Ireland, as we have been doing consistently throughout Great Britain and end in Northern Ireland; they are this process—including Stephen Kelly, who I do know. internal movements. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman It is the information from businesses that fed into the will understand that I am not able to comment on the Command Paper that we issued earlier in the year, as progress of the negotiations, although we are keen to well as the guidance that we issued and the work that we move through them as quickly as possible. I reassure are doing to ensure not just that we have unfettered him that we are focused on those issues and are determined access for Northern Ireland businesses to mainland to deliver in full on our commitments to the people of Great Britain—I hope that she and other colleagues will Northern Ireland. support us in ensuring that it is in the United Kingdom 295 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 296

Internal Market Bill to deliver unfettered access, which intensified, our work with the specialist Joint Committee. she claims in her question to support—but also that we I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join me in supporting get a good free flow of access to ensure that the whole the clauses in the UK Internal Market Bill that will give UK internal market can work together, including Great businesses certainty by delivering unfettered access to Britain to Northern Ireland. the whole of the UK.

Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP) [V]: Given the fact Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I have been contacted that the Secretary of State has already admitted that the by a large number of my constituents who are involved clauses removed by the Lords from the UK Internal in the agrifood sector and other businesses. With special Market Bill will break international law, and that the reference to the packaging of products and the new Irish Government, the new US President-elect and the labelling structure, I am ever mindful of the approach people of Northern Ireland believe that those clauses of 31 December, which has a cost factor for the labels as breach the Northern Ireland protocol, will he commit well. What information has been released for manufacturing today to not reinstating them in the Bill next week? companies to have certainty over their packaging? Brandon Lewis: Actually, what those clauses have Brandon Lewis: The hon. Gentleman raises an important been about is ensuring that we have unfettered access point that underlines why we are working with him to for Northern Ireland businesses to Great Britain. That provide as much certainty as possible. On this particular is something inherent in the protocol. It plays a part in matter, I am pleased to be able to tell him that we have delivering on one of the key sentences in the first few recently updated our guidance on labelling changes that paragraphs in the Northern Ireland protocol that says are required at the end of the transition period. That we will ensure that we do not disrupt the everyday lives guidance is now available on gov.uk, and I will make of people in their communities. I would have hoped that sure that my office sends him the link so that he can the hon. Gentleman would support us in ensuring the send it on to any of those businesses that are inquiring Northern Ireland businesses can trade in mainland already. Great Britain as part of the United Kingdom. That is what those clauses are about, as an insurance policy, but obviously our main focus and aim is to secure the right UK Transport Connections agreement for a wider free trade agreement with the EU, and, indeed, to work with the specialist Joint Committee. John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con): What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues Transition Period: Business Preparedness on improving transport connections within the UK. [909537] Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): What steps his Department is taking to help ensure that businesses Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con): in Northern Ireland are prepared for the end of the What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues transition period. [909536] on improving transport connections within the UK. [909541] The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis): We have published guidance throughout the The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin year and are providing extensive support to Northern Walker): The Secretary of State and I have regular Ireland businesses. For instance, as I mentioned, we conversationswithministerialcolleaguesregardingtransport have the Trader Support Service, which is backed by connections, which are particularly important for Northern £200 million of funding from the UK Government, and Ireland, given its unique geography.The recently announced has been well received—it has now had over independent Union connectivity review will consider 16,000 registrations. As we approach the end of the how connectivity across the UK can support economic year,we will continue to provide detailed sectoral guidance growth. Both the Secretary of State and I have met and information on Government support, and we will Sir Peter Hendy and look forward to hearing his step that up as we approach the conclusion of the recommendations in the summer. negotiations to ensure that clear, accessible messages and guidance are provided as soon as possible. John Lamont: Does the Minister agree that good Stephen Farry [V]: With barely 700 hours to go until transport links between all parts of the United Kingdom the end of the transition period, it is absurd that so are vital, and it is therefore extremely disappointing that many issues still need to be clarified. Does the Secretary the Scottish Government are refusing to engage with of State recognise that Northern Ireland businesses the Union connectivity review, thereby depriving my require a clear legal framework in which to operate, and constituents of good transport links in all parts of as such, any changes or mitigations have to be agreed Scotland and better links with other parts of the United with the EU under the protocol, including potentially Kingdom? any grace period, and that doing the opposite places Northern Ireland businesses in a very uncertain legal Mr Walker: I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. position going forward and will create long-term problems Friend. Every part of the United Kingdom can benefit for them arising from such unilateral action by the from investment in our shared infrastructure and Government? connectivity. Unwillingness to engage with the review risks Scotland missing out, and I would certainly urge Brandon Lewis: There is a range of things that businesses the Scottish Government to rethink. They should follow can be doing and should be doing now, regardless of the example of the Minister for Infrastructure in the what the outcome may be, such as signing up to the Northern Ireland Executive, who has been engaging Trader Support Service. We are intensifying, and have constructively with the review. 297 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 298

Jane Stevenson: My father left Northern Ireland in it is absolutely crucial that we have effective co-operation— the 1950s and settled in Wolverhampton, which has a north-south and east-west—and a co-ordinated approach large Northern Irish community. It is the same for many to dealing with this pandemic? communities across Great Britain, including in Scotland. Does the Minister agree that excellent transport links to Mr Walker: I strongly endorse the words of my hon. Northern Ireland are absolutely crucial, and will he Friend. This Government are determined to work together make that clear to Sir Peter Hendy as part of the Union with the Northern Irish Executive and the Irish Government connectivity review? to ensure that measures safeguard the health and wellbeing of UK and Irish citizens.There is an existing memorandum Mr Walker: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, of understanding between the chief medical officers for and I recognise, having many Irish and Northern Irish Northern Ireland and for Ireland, which formalises constituents myself, that it is vital that there are excellent co-ordination and co-operation between the Irish transport links across the Irish Sea for trade, for tourism, Government and the Northern Ireland Executive in for the Union and to bring families together. The review relation to covid-19. The Secretary of State continues to will make recommendations on how best to improve hold regular discussions with the First Minister and connectivity across the UK, including across the Irish Deputy First Minister, as well as the Irish Government, Sea, and in the long term certainly we will be making to co-operate on covid issues. that case to the review. Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP) [V]: With the Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The main threat positive news that the UK will commence covid-19 to our connectivity between Northern Ireland and the vaccinations from 14 December, will the Secretary of rest of the United Kingdom over the winter is the State commit that if logistical support from Her Majesty’s unprofitability of airlines due to the covid restrictions. armed forces is required in Northern Ireland, it will be In the medium term, new routes need to be opened to provided speedily and with the same resources as the business centres in Europe. Can the Secretary of State rest of our nation? give an assurance that he will discuss with the Treasury, I would just like to take a little bit of a liberty, first, the reduction or suspension of air passenger duty Mr Speaker, and take this opportunity to express my for a limited period of time and, secondly, what help deep disappointment that once again the six-time world can be given to opening new routes between Northern superbike champion and South Antrim native Jonathan Ireland and business centres in Europe? Rea MBE was overlooked for the shortlist of the BBC’s sports personality of the year. I am sure that the Secretary Mr Walker: The Secretary of State and I work closely of State will agree with me on that. with colleagues across Government and in the Executive to support the Northern Ireland economy and make the Mr Speaker: The Minister might, as well. case on air connectivity. There have been discussions with the Department for Transport and, indeed, the Mr Walker: I fear to tread in such a contentious area. Treasury on those matters. As the right hon. Gentleman The hon. Gentleman is right that the news on a vaccine knows, the Treasury is reviewing the air passenger duty is good news for the whole United Kingdom. We want issue. to ensure that it is rolled out effectively across the whole United Kingdom, and we shall certainly make Covid-19: UK-wide Response representations to ensure that that includes Northern Ireland. Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con): What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues Integrated Education on co-ordinating a UK-wide response to the covid-19 outbreak. [909538] Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): What assessment he has made of progress towards integrated The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin education in Northern Ireland. [909539] Walker): The Government and the devolved Administrations continue to work closely together to The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin ensureaco-ordinatedapproachacrosstheUnitedKingdom. Walker): The Government continue to be committed to As set out in our joint statement of 25 September, the integrated education in Northern Ireland, which is why UK Government and the devolved Administrations we provided £500 million of funding to the Northern hold a Ireland Executive for the development of integrated “shared commitment to suppressing the virus to the lowest possible and shared schools as part of the “Fresh Start”agreement. level and keeping it there”. The Executive have confirmed that they have so far Today’s news about a vaccine will be welcomed across spent £31 million to the end of 2019-20, and the full every part of the United Kingdom. I was pleased we £500 million of “Fresh Start”capital has been committed could agree a united approach to Christmas planning to the end of 2025-26. We want to see investment last week. Although each devolved Administration control delivered quickly in Northern Ireland, and the establishment their public health policy, we have been co-ordinating of an independent fiscal council would support the positively on our response to covid throughout the year. Assembly to hold the Executive to account on delivery, as well as on other fiscal and budgetary matters. Mr Vara: Coronavirus knows no boundaries, and it is absolutely vital that the UK Government, the Irish Alex Cunningham: Who we learn with and live alongside Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly work could scarcely be more fundamental to how we see the together to deal with it. Does my hon. Friend agree that world. Integrated education is one of the major unfulfilled 299 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 300 legacies of the Good Friday agreement. Is it not time to and that that is just as important as avoiding a tariffs seize the opportunity presented by the “New Decade, and customs border between Northern Ireland and the New Approach” deal and together drive real progress rest of the UK? on shared education that will build a fairer society? Mr Walker: My hon. Friend is right, and I know that Mr Walker: The short answer to the hon. Gentleman’s her constituency of Ynys Môn plays a vital part in the question is yes. links between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The protocol was designed to address a particular set of problems in a way that upholds the Belfast/Good Friday Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): Last March, I was agreement. It is a practical solution to avoid a hard pleased to host the Integrated Education Fund here in border with Ireland, while ensuring that the UK, including Westminster. Wehad a very positive cross-party discussion Northern Ireland, leaves the EU as a whole. The protocol with the fund about how we all support our shared is also clear that the UK must function as a single desire to ensure that every child in Northern Ireland customs territory in practice, and that means fulfilling gets a good education in a good school. Despite the our commitment to delivering unfettered access for pandemic, good progress is being made on the ground Northern Ireland businesses to the rest of the Great with the parties to support children. Will the Secretary Britain market as well. of State and the Minister commit to doing all they can to support them in delivering this long overdue legacy Good Friday Agreement: Implementation work? Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): What steps Mr Walker: I agree with the hon. Lady about the he is taking to help ensure the full implementation of importance of this issue. As she knows, under the “New the Good Friday agreement. [909542] Decade, New Approach”agreement, the Executive agreed to establish a programme for government, including an The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon “Enhanced strategic focus and supporting actions on educating Lewis): The Government remain steadfast in our our children and young people together in the classroom, in order commitment to the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, to build a shared and integrated society.” and we will continue to support the institutions in I have met some of the Northern Irish parties to discuss delivering peace and prosperity for the people of Northern progress on delivering shared and integrated education, Ireland. A key institution created as a result of the and I share their ambition to speed up delivery. I believe agreement is the Northern Ireland Assembly, which was that the establishment of an independent fiscal council restored this year following the “New Decade, New would help to accelerate that delivery. Approach” agreement in January. The best way forward for Northern Ireland lies in strong devolved institutions Transition Period: UK Trade that support the Executive and Assembly to deliver on the issues that matter to the people of Northern Ireland.

Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): What steps his Alison McGovern: The Good Friday agreement comes Department is taking to help ensure that Northern of age today, as it became effective 21 years ago. It Ireland businesses have unfettered access to trade with provided a platform for the development of excellent the rest of the UK after the transition period. [909540] economic and social relationships between Northern Ireland and Merseyside. What conversations has the The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Secretary of State had to ensure that nothing that Walker): Our commitment to unfettered access for Northern happens in the next month puts that progress at risk? Ireland goods to the rest of the UK, as outlined in NDNA and the 2019 manifesto, remains unequivocal. Brandon Lewis: The hon. Lady makes an excellent We have brought forward draft regulations that establish point. That is exactly what the clauses in the United the definition of qualifying Northern Ireland goods, Kingdom Internal Market Bill are about—ensuring ensuring no changes in how Northern Ireland businesses that businesses in Northern Ireland continue to trade as move goods directly to the rest of the UK from 1 part of the United Kingdom with unfettered access, January 2021. The UKIM Bill will ensure that qualifying which is of benefit to companies in Liverpool, so I hope Northern Ireland goods will continue to be placed on she will support the Bill when it comes back to the the whole UK market, even where the protocol applies House. different rules in Northern Ireland. Our priority for a longer-term qualifying goods regime is to confer the (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab): Last week benefits of unfettered access specifically on Northern alone, three journalists were issued with violent threats Ireland businesses. That is being developed in close by loyalist paramilitaries. The BBC has seen evidence co-operation with Northern Ireland businesses and the that loyalist paramilitary groups have over 12,500 members, Executive and will come into force in 2021. and there are more dissident groups than during the troubles. Does the Secretary of State agree that a toxic Virginia Crosbie: More than 100,000 freight units combination of deprivation and a failure to deal with destined to and from Northern Ireland transit through the legacy of the past has created a fertile breeding Holyhead port each year. Unfettered access is key to ground for paramilitary groups? not only the Northern Ireland economy but the Anglesey and Welsh economy. Can the Minister confirm that at Brandon Lewis: I am sure the hon. Lady would agree no stage will this Government allow a hard border with me that obviously there is no place for violence or between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, threats of any description to anybody in Northern 301 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 302

Ireland, including media and political players in Northern I know that the whole House will want to join me in Ireland. It is completely unacceptable. There is no excuse welcoming the fantastic news that the MHRA—the for it, and actually arguing that it is in any way acceptable Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency— because of any other particular issue is, I think, a has formally authorised the Pfizer vaccine for covid-19. fallacy and the wrong position to take. I have to say that The vaccine will begin to be made available across the we are making huge investments. There has obviously UK from next week. I would like to pay tribute to and been about £20 billion for the Northern Ireland Executive to thank all those who have made this possible. It is the this year, between the block grant and the extra support protection of vaccines that will ultimately allow us to that the UK Government have put in, on top of having reclaim our lives and get our economy moving again. what are financially the biggest city and growth deals in This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues the United Kingdom to ensure that we are levelling up. and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I That is something we are determined to do for the shall have further such meetings later today. people of Northern Ireland, as we are for the rest of the United Kingdom. Chris Green: I would like to share in the congratulations of the Prime Minister on the creation of this new Louise Haigh: On Monday, the Secretary of State vaccine and the speed with which it has been got out, told the House that he had ceased engaging on legacy and to give those congratulations especially to the engineers, issues at the request of victims groups, but he knows technicians and scientists who have delivered it. I believe that the largest cross-community victims group in Northern that we should support the widest distribution and Ireland, the WAVE Trauma Centre, has expressed serious take-up of safe and effective medicines, but does my concerns at his lack of engagement and, indeed, has right hon Friend agree with me that it should always be described him as “dangerously deluded”. Can he confirm taken on a wholly voluntary basis by individuals and to the House exactly when he will meet those at the families? WAVE Trauma Centre and when he will present an update on legacy proposals to this House? The Prime Minister: Absolutely. I strongly urge people to take up the vaccine, but it is no part of our culture or Brandon Lewis: I am a little bit surprised by what the our ambition in this country to make vaccines mandatory. hon. Lady just outlined, as it was actually the WAVE That is not how we do things. group that, back in March, asked us to pause on engagement as it and its members were focused on (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): May I covid, which I think was a reasonable position. I think it join the Prime Minister in his comments on disabled was right, as people were focused on covid. However, as people? I have said a few times to the hon. Lady and to this Like the Prime Minister, can I start with the fantastic House, I think that action on legacy, which is such a news about the licensing of a vaccine? This pandemic sensitive and important issue, to make sure we can help has caused so much grief and so much loss, but we are Northern Ireland move forward and put the troubles in now a big step closer to the end of the tunnel. Like the the past is an important thing to do. It is also important Prime Minister, can I express my thanks and the thanks to get that information for the victims and the families of everyone on these Benches and across the House to of victims who have been looking for that information all the scientists who have worked on this and to everybody now for far too long. We are determined to do that by who has taken part in the trials. Delivering a vaccine engaging with the people of Northern Ireland, as well fairly, quickly and safely will now be the next major as our partners in the Irish Government and the United challenge facing the country, and whatever our differences States and the political parties in Northern Ireland, and across this House, we have all a duty to play our part in when we have done that, I will come back to this House. this national effort and to reassure the public about the However, this has to be something that is done with the safety of the vaccine. support of and engagement with the people of Northern Ireland. This morning, a priority list has been published for the first phase of the roll-out. We understand that around 800,000 doses will soon be available, and that is good news. Because of the two doses that will be PRIME MINISTER required, that means 400,000 people can be vaccinated in the first batch. So can the Prime Minister tell the House: who does he expect to receive the vaccine next week? The Prime Minister was asked— Engagements The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his point about the roll-out, and I will perhaps update the House on what the Joint [909764] Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 2 December. Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation has concluded so far. The priority list will be: residents in a The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): Today, I am care home for older adults, and their carers, in order to proudly wearing purple to celebrate the International stop transmission; those of 80 years of age or older; Day for Disabled People, which is of course tomorrow. front-line health care and social care workers; all those Next year, we will publish our national strategy for of 75 years of age and over; all those of 70 years of age disabled people, which will be the most ambitious and over; and clinically extremely vulnerable individuals. intervention in this area for a generation, putting fairness There is then a list that I am sure the House will want to at the heart of the Government’s work and levelling up study closely, but that I believe represents common sense. so that everybody has the opportunity fully to participate It is important at this stage for us all to recognise that in the life of this country. this is unquestionably good news—it is very, very good 303 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 304 news—but it is by no means the end of the story; it is able to distribute it as fast and as sensibly as possible to not the end of our national struggle against coronavirus. the most vulnerable groups. That is why it is important that the package of moderately The right hon. and learned Gentleman is right to tough measures that the House voted for last night—the raise that particular logistical difficulty. That is why it is tiering system—is followed across the country, because also important that we get the AstraZeneca vaccine, that is how we will continue to beat the virus. which we hope will also come on stream. While he is paying tribute to those who have been involved in the Keir Starmer: The Prime Minister has referenced the vaccines, perhaps he could also pay tribute to the work of priorities for the first phase, and as he said, the top two the vaccine taskforce, which secured the deal with Pfizer priority groups are residents in care homes for older and which he, I think, criticised only a few weeks ago. adults and their carers, all those of 80 years of age and over, and front-line health and social care workers. I am Keir Starmer: I pay tribute to everybody who has got not criticising that list in the slightest, but it is obvious us this far, and we will work with all of them to get us that that is more than 400,000 people. The Prime Minister where we need to go next. This has to be something that will understand how anxious people in those particular we all pull together to deliver as quickly and safely as groups are, after having sacrificed so much. Will he give possible over the next few months. I have made that the House the answer to the question that they will be offer to the Prime Minister before, and I do it again. asking this morning, which is: by when does he expect It is in that vein that I turn to the next question, that all people in those two top groups can expect to be which is about public confidence in the vaccine. That is vaccinated? a real cause for concern, because it is going to be crucial to the success of getting this rolled out across the country The Prime Minister: At this stage it is very important and getting our economy back up and running. As the that people do not get their hopes up too soon about Prime Minister knows, we have the highest regulatory the speed with which we will be able to roll out this and medical safety standards in the world, but it is vaccine. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State really important that we do everything possible to counter for Health and Social Care said, it is beginning from dangerous, frankly life-threatening disinformation about next week, and we are expecting several million doses of vaccines. The Opposition have called for legislation to the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine before the end of the year. be introduced to clamp down on this, with financial We will then be rolling it out as fast as we possibly can. penalties for companies that fail to act. Will the Prime That is why I put so much emphasis on the continuing Minister work with us on this and bring forward emergency importance of the tiering system and of mass community legislation in the coming days, which I think the whole testing, at the same time as we go forward through these House would support? tough winter months. The right hon. and learned Gentleman is right to ask about timetables, but at the The Prime Minister: We are, of course, working to same time as we roll out the vaccine over the next few tackle all kinds of disinformation across the internet. weeks, we will need to keep that tough tiering and The right hon. and learned Gentleman is right to single testing regime in place. out the anti-vaxxers and those who I think are totally wrong in their approach, and he is right to encourage Keir Starmer: May I press the Prime Minister a bit take-up of vaccines across the country. We will be further about the plan for care homes? I do so because publishing a paper very shortly on online harms designed we all want this to work. The top category is residents in to tackle the very disinformation that he speaks of. care homes, and this will obviously be a huge concern for many people. This morning the Welsh Government Keir Starmer: May I also urge the Prime Minister, have already raised some serious practical problems once the Government have a communications plan for about the delivery of vaccines into care homes, bearing the vaccine, to share it with the House so that we can all in mind the temperatures at which the vaccines have to say the same thing in the same way to the country and be stored. The Prime Minister must know that this is thus encourage as many people as possible to take up going to be a four-nation problem, and he must be the vaccine? aware that this problem will arise. We all want to The arrival of the vaccine is obviously wonderful overcome that problem, and in that spirit I ask the news, but it will come too late for many who have lost Prime Minister what plans he has put in place to their jobs already. I want to turn to the collapse of the address the particular problems of getting the vaccine Arcadia Group and Debenhams in the last 48 hours. safely and quickly into care homes, given the practical That has put 25,000 jobs at risk and obviously caused difficulties of doing so, and the anxiety that those in huge anxiety to many families at the worst possible care homes will have about getting it quickly? time, and it threatens to rip the heart out of many high streets in our towns and cities. Can the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned tell the House what he is going to do now to protect the Gentleman is entirely right to raise the issue of care jobs and pensions of all those affected by these closures? homes and our ability to distribute this particular type of vaccine rapidly into care homes, because it does need The Prime Minister: We are looking at what we can to be kept at minus 70°, as I think the House understands, do to protect all the jobs that are being lost currently so there are logistical challenges to be overcome to get across the country. My right hon. Friend the Secretary vulnerable people the access to the vaccine that they of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy need. We are working on it with all the devolved has written to the Insolvency Service to look at the Administrations in order to ensure that the NHS across conduct of the Arcadia directors, and we will be doing the country—it is the NHS that will be in the lead—is everything we can to restore the high streets of this 305 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 306 country with our £1 billion high streets fund and the commit to establish the new infrastructure bank in levelling-up fund. But I must say that I think it is a bit Wakefield and restore my city’s glory? much that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should attack the economic consequences of the fight against The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is a magnificent coronavirus when last night neither he nor his troops and doughty campaigner for Wakefield. I know that my could be bothered to vote for measures—sensible, balanced right hon. Friend the Chancellor will listen very closely measures—that would open up the economy and allow to his call for the national infrastructure bank to be businesses to trade. How can he attack the economic established in Wakefield. My hon. Friend should wait consequences of our battle against coronavirus when he on events. will not even support measures to open up the economy?

Keir Starmer: When I abstain, I come to the House Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP) [V]: and explain. When the Prime Minister abstains, he This morning, for the first time in months, people have runs away to Afghanistan and gives the taxpayer a woken up with a genuine sense of hope. The news on £20,000 bill. the vaccine approval is the news we have all been On the question of jobs, there are serious questions waiting for. For many, however, that hope on the horizon that need to be answered about the collapse of these remains far too distant. There are millions who still businesses. I do not want the Prime Minister to deflect have not had a single penny of support from this UK from that and what it means for these many families. Government. As others rightly received help, they received This is not an isolated incident; over 200,000 retail jobs none. Prime Minister, yesterday I met ExcludedUK, have been lost this year—that is 200,000 individuals and which represents many of those 3 million citizens. For their families—and 20,000 stores have been closed on the past nine months, the excluded have been living our high street, and that is before the latest restrictions. without any help and without any hope. It is now, I suspect that if we had seen that scale of job losses in tragically, costing lives. Prime Minister, they told me any other sector, there would have been much greater something genuinely shocking. They are aware of eight action already. people who have taken their lives in the past 10 days—eight people in 10 days. Prime Minister, we are now a little I urge the Prime Minister to take this seriously; do over three weeks from Christmas. These people need not deflect. As well as providing emergency support, help. Will the Prime Minister commit to looking again will he work with us, the trade unions and the sector to at the support package for the excluded, to ensure that finally bring forward a comprehensive plan to save no one, but no one, is left behind? retail jobs and to provide the sector with the much greater support it needs through this crisis? These are real people, Prime Minister, with real jobs and families, The Prime Minister: I obviously sympathise very who are facing the sack. They really need to hear much with those who have taken their lives and their from you. families. This has been a very tough time for the country. We are investing massively in mental health support The Prime Minister: We are, of course, supporting across the country, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, every job we possibly can, as well as supporting every which flows through, in Barnett consequentials,to Scotland. life and every livelihood, with a £200 billion programme. We have put in a huge package of support. He knows I would take the right hon. and learned Gentleman this, but I must repeat this for self-employed people more seriously, frankly, if he actually could be bothered across the country. I know there are hard-to-reach to vote for a moderate programme to keep the virus people, but they are also supported with the increases in down and open up the economy. We are getting on with universal credit and the many other means of support our programme of rolling out the vaccine and sensible that are currently on offer. When we look at the overall tiering measures, in addition to which we are delivering level of support this Government have given the people 40 more hospitals and 20,000 more police officers. He across the country, it compares favourably with any talks about abstention. When it came to protecting our other Government around the world. veterans from unfair prosecution, he chose to abstain. When it came to protecting the people of this country Ian Blackford: I have to say, and I do this with regret, from coronavirus at this critical moment, he told his that that simply is not good enough. These people need troops to abstain. Captain Hindsight is rising rapidly up help, and I am asking the Prime Minister to think very the ranks and has become General Indecision. That is carefully about this. This has been an abject failure by what is happening, I am afraid, to the right hon. and this UK Government, and the Prime Minister has learned Gentleman. He dithers; we get on with the job. been missing in action. The Government have U-turned on almost everything else, so why cannot the Prime [909765] Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): Next Minister and the Chancellor change their minds on week marks one year since the Prime Minister won a their support for these 3 million people? These are mighty majority. His bold vision turned the red wall people working in construction, creative industries, events, blue, ensuring our communities would no longer be education, hospitality, retail and healthcare. They have neglected. As part of the Prime Minister’s plan to level not just been left behind; they have been ignored for up, a new infrastructure bank has been promised. nine months. The Chancellor has repeatedly dodged Mr Speaker, you know Wakefield as the crossroads of this issue. ExcludedUK has not been offered one formal the kingdom—our cathedral spire the tallest in God’s meeting with a Government Minister. Will the Prime own county; historically, the principal city of West Minister commit today to a meeting and working with Yorkshire; and the pulsating, oxygenating heart of the ExcludedUK on a meaningful package of support, or is red wall. All make it the perfect city for the new bank’s he simply going to abandon these people three weeks home. Will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister from Christmas? 307 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 308

The Prime Minister: We have abandoned nobody and The Prime Minister: I simply fail to recognise the we are continuing to support people. In addition to the characterisation that the right hon. Lady makes of support I have already mentioned, we have announced investment across the whole of the UK. The Welsh nearly £400 million to support vulnerable children and Government will receive an additional £1.3 billion next their families through the winter. We have increased year. We are providing £240 million more to support universal credit, as I just mentioned to the House, Welsh farmers and £2.1 million to support fisheries in increased the local housing allowance and provided Wales. The last time I looked at transport in Wales, the billions more to local authorities to help those who are Welsh Labour Government spent £144 million on plans hardest to reach. I may say to the right hon. Gentleman for an M4 bypass, which they then junked. that the best way to help the self-employed, and to help the economy of this whole country, is to get us moving [909767] Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con): The people again with the package of measures that the House of Aberconwy would like to thank the Prime Minister voted for last night to allow retail to start up again and for his early Christmas present in this vaccine. Like to allow business to start up again— many presents, we might not have made it, but this Government—this Union—could afford to buy it for Patrick Grady ( North) (SNP): Shame. this country. I was in Llanrwst this Saturday, talking with small businesses that have had to deal with flooding The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman says it is in February and the pandemic since March. All they shameful. We on the Government side of the House do want to do is trade. Will my right hon. Friend join me in not think retail is shameful. We want businesses to open thanking Y Siop Flodau, Siop Sioned and Emma James up again, and that is the nature of the package that was Cakes for battling through a really difficult 2020? Does voted for last night, which I think was quite right. It is a he agree that this news of a vaccine and its licensing great, great shame that the right hon. and learned gives real hope to these three women, these three Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) entrepreneurs, and thousands like them—hope for a could not bring himself to support it. better 2021?

[909766] Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. I congratulate the At this time of enormous pressure on our healthcare, I three female entrepreneurs whom my hon. Friend welcome the Government’s and the NHS’s continued mentioned. They will be helped by the vaccine, they will commitment to the new combined medical facility in be allowed to do business again, and what a shame it is Edenbridge. Will the Prime Minister confirm to that our programme, which was sensibly and safely to me that the sale of the existing Edenbridge and District open up the economy, was not supported by the Leader War Memorial Hospital, which was built by public of the Opposition. donation about a century ago, will now help to fund the new building? He is investing £20 million in the [909768] Sir (Preston) (Lab/Co-op) medicines and diagnostic manufacturing transformation [V]: The Prime Minister has put at risk the Good Friday fund to benefit Wales, Scotland, and Northern agreement and peace in Northern Ireland after promising Ireland, so will he join me in welcoming the skill of all the people of this country that he would not. He those in the NHS and, indeed, the Health Secretary in promised the country a world-beating test, track and making historical donations work for our communities trace system, but conveniently forgot to provide the today? track and trace part of the promise. He promised an oven-ready deal with the EU to win the 2019 general The Prime Minister: Yes, I can, and I congratulate my election, but we look like having no deal. When will the hon. Friend on his campaign. Any decision to allow for Prime Minister follow through and deliver on his promises, the sale of the hospital is, of course, a matter for instead of behaving like a second-hand car salesman? the local clinical commissioning group, but I know that he fully supports the £12 million that we put in for the The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman wants to development of a new health and wellbeing centre for keep this country in the EU, which I think was the gist Edenbridge. of what he was saying, he will be sorely disappointed and so will the Labour party. Mr Speaker: I call Liz Saville Roberts. [909769] Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con): It is said that Britain is a nation of shopkeepers, and in Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) [V]: Stockton we are proud to have some of the best retailers Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mr Llefarydd. I would like to add in the country. They have had a tough year. They are my voice to those welcoming the licensing of the vaccine; grateful for the support that they have received from the this really is a ray of light in dark times. Government, but remain concerned about the future of Last week, the Prime Minister’s Government published business rates. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that their statement of funding, showing a reduction in the the Government remain committed to a fundamental amount that Wales receives from transport spend in review of business rates, and will he join me in encouraging England, from 80.9% to 36.6%. This reveals in black people to get down the local high street and shop local and white the iniquity of the rail betrayal being inflicted this Christmas? on Wales. Welsh taxpayers are paying for English transport and HS2, but we do not get a fair return. Will he inform The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. My hon. Friend the House how much investment he is funnelling reminds me that it is Small Business Saturday this away from Wales due to his Government’s decision to Saturday. Everybody should be shopping local. I can label this white elephant an England and Wales also tell him that the Treasury is considering the responses scheme, despite not a single inch of the railway being to the call for evidence on business rates ahead of the in Wales? review’s conclusion in the spring. 309 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 310

[909770] Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): We all instruction to dither. I would take her more seriously if know that it will take a long time for many industries to her party leader would vote for measures that would open recover from the impact of coronavirus. The aviation up the economy while protecting lives across the UK. sector and its supply chain, which support almost a quarter of a million jobs, have been uniquely impacted. [909776] Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con) [V]: I would Many workers and their families at GE Aviation in like to thank my right hon. Friend and his Cabinet Pontypridd have been financially ruined. Sadly, that is a colleagues for last week granting my request to fund familiar scenario for families up and down the country. the North Hykeham relief road, the final part of the The Prime Minister urgently needs to wake up to the eastern bypass around my constituency of Lincoln. I situation. Will he therefore commit to a sector-specific look forward to seeing internal combustion engine support deal to save our aviation industry before it is vehicles gliding over its smooth tarmac surface for too late? many decades to come. As the Prime Minister will know, my constituents The Prime Minister: We are doing a huge amount to have made their views clear to me on the recent decisions support our aviation industry, but I appreciate the stress on lockdown and the new tier system, as they normally and difficulties that many families are in at the moment and refreshingly do. Lincolnshire is a very big space, so because of the threats to that sector, which are global, although my county colleagues succumbed to the wily alas, because people are just not flying in the way that charms of the Secretary of State for Health last night, they were before the pandemic. I have every hope that it will my right hon. Friend seriously consider allowing will bounce back very strongly, particularly in this local decision makers the chance to set the tier systems country, which is a world leader in aviation, once we get locally? After all, local decision makers know their the economy moving again, as I hope we can. patches far better than any Whitehall official. Local businesses in Lincoln, including some ExcludedUK [909773] Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): In members who have yet to receive any support, are North Somerset, as in the rest of the United Kingdom, desperate to get back to work and to fire up our UK small businesses are the lifeblood of the economy,providing economy. over 60% of all our jobs. Post covid, we will require a private sector, small business-led recovery.Will the Prime The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, Minister consider a new discipline within the Government and I repeat what I said to the House several times in the form of a small business test, so that every tax, yesterday afternoon. Of course we want to reflect local regulation and bit of legislation is measured against conditions as closely and accurately as we can in taking whether it will provide support for that sector, which our decisions about tiering, but we must look at the will be vital to our post-covid recovery? entire national picture. On his point about internal combustion engines, I would just remind him that a The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend for hydrogen engine can also be an internal combustion his excellent suggestion. He is a great champion of engine. small business. Every measure that the Government produce is judged by the effect or impact it will have on businesses large and small. As he knows, we are also [909772] Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): providing for these particularly difficult circumstances My constituent was diagnosed with ME in 2019, and about £100 billion in business support—the bounce earlier this year her employer agreed that she was no back loans and many other forms of support—but the longer able to work and to do the job she loved. She best thing for businesses large and small is for us to applied for the personal independence payment, but shop local, as I said earlier, and to allow the economy the Department for Work and Pensions has ruled that cautiously and prudently to reopen. she is fit to work. It has not engaged with her previous employer, who has a wealth of evidence to the contrary, and has reached its own decision. Her life has been [909771] Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): devastated by this diagnosis. She told me: I want to congratulate the Prime Minister, as I think next week marks his first year in post. However, in that “The PIP process is predicated on being able to stand up for time: over 71,000 covid deaths, the highest rate in yourself, and as a disabled person I cannot do this.” Europe; over £2 trillion in debt, with the worst- Will the Prime Minister meet me to ensure that our performing economy in the G7; failing Brexit benefits system works for sufferers of chronic fatigue negotiations; and at least £1.5 billion of taxpayers’ and does not limit decisions to single points of evidence? money spent on contracts for Tory friends and donors. At the same time, he has whipped his MPs to vote The Prime Minister: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s against meals for hungry children. Which one of these question. She is raising an important issue. I know that achievements is he most proud of? many people suffer from the syndrome that she describes, and I will ensure that she gets a proper meeting with the The Prime Minister: I would take the hon. Lady’s relevant Minister to discuss her objectives. point more seriously if she and her party could be bothered to vote for measures—[Interruption.] [909777] Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con) [V]: Some in the media discuss levelling up only through the prism Mrs Lewell-Buck: I did. of the north-south divide. However,Cornwall has pockets of deprivation, and many communities in my constituency The Prime Minister: I am sorry—she defied the Labour also need investment and support. I welcome the Whip. Forgive me, Mr Speaker. She defied the injunction Government’sannouncement of the £4 billion levelling-up to dither from the ditherer-in-chief. She did not obey his fund and the decision to review the Green Book so that 311 Oral Answers 2 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 312 projects outside and the south-east are more emissions in 2030 as the UK’s nationally determined likely to benefit from Government investment. However, contribution on the path to net zero Britain? in the light of the new spending commitments, can my right hon. Friend confirm that the shared prosperity The Prime Minister: I am proud that the UK led the fund is separate to the levelling-up fund, that there will way in instituting a target of net zero by 2050; of all the be an announcement on that soon, and that the fund developed nations, we were the first. We are looking at will be simpler and less time consuming for small businesses our nationally determined contribution, which will be to access than the onerous EU schemes it is replacing? extremely ambitious and will be published around the time of the climate summit on 12 December this year. The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. My hon. Friend is completely right about the importance of the new UK [909775] Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and shared prosperity fund. It will be different from the Strathspey) (SNP) [V]: The Prime Minister mentioned levelling-up fund and we are going to work closely with universal credit earlier. His and the Chancellor’s decision him and with people in Cornwall to ensure that we use to increase UC by £20 a week during the pandemic was the additional funding best for the needs of people and an admission of what my constituents have known for communities in Cornwall. years: UC simply is not enough to live on. In January, his Government will cap the benefits of thousands of [909774] Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): This week, UC claimants; the average losses will be £250 a month, the Scottish Government announced a £500 bonus scheme mainly to families with children. He already knows that for our health and social care heroes who have helped to UC is not enough to live on, so will he now commit to care for us through the pandemic. The Scottish scrap the cap and guarantee to continue the £20 a week Conservatives have been trying to claim some reflected uplift? Or is he going to throw these families to the credit for that policy over the past few hours. The Prime wolves, too, just like the 3 million excluded? Minister is not responsible for health in Scotland, but he is responsible for it in England, so will he put his The Prime Minister: I just repeat the point I made Government’s money where his Scottish colleagues’ earlier about the huge sums the Government have invested mouths clearly are and match that bonus initiative for in looking after families’ lives and livelihoods across the health and social care workers in England? Will he whole of the UK—this is well north of £200 billion instruct the Chancellor to ensure that, whenever a bonus now. As the hon. Gentleman rightly says, there has been scheme like that is introduced, the Treasury will not try a UC uplift of £1,000. We will continue to support to snaffle back the tax from it, but let it be paid tax-free? families across this country throughout the pandemic, but the objective must be, as I hope he would agree, to The Prime Minister: On the last point, that is a matter get the economy moving again and get people back into for the Scottish Government, who have the fiscal freedom work in the way that everybody would want. It is a fact to do that. I thank health and social care workers in that under this Government, despite all the difficulties Scotland and across the whole country, and I am proud we have faced, the unemployment rate is lower than that of the increases we have been able to put in—12.8% over in France, Spain, Italy, Canada and the United States. the past three years, and a pay rise for 1 million people We will continue to work to look after every job that in the NHS, as part of the biggest ever investment in the we can. NHS, even before covid began. This investment will continue under this Government. Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the [909778] Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) [V]: In 10 days’ safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am time, the Government are hosting the United Nations suspending the House for three minutes. climate summit, ahead of COP26 next year. I urge the Prime Minister not to curb his enthusiasm for the environment. Will he show international leadership by 12.38 pm setting out an ambitious but achievable target for Sitting suspended. 313 2 DECEMBER 2020 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 314 Support and Job Retention Arcadia and Debenhams: Business Support have committed to supporting the retail sector, and we and Job Retention are working closely with industry through these unprecedented times, particularly to ensure the safe reopening of non-essential retail today. On Monday, 12.41 pm my right hon. Friend the Communities Secretary Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab) (Urgent encouraged local authorities to allow shops to open for Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Business, extended hours, to accommodate more shoppers safely Energy and Industrial Strategy to make a statement on in the lead-up to Christmas. I will continue to work with support for business and the retention of jobs on the the sector to meet future challenges. Indeed, I will high street in light of the announcement of Arcadia co-chair the next meeting of the Retail Sector Council entering administration and Debenhams going into tomorrow to discuss our strategic approach to the sector. liquidation. I have regular retail calls, including one last week, with representatives from Arcadia among the retailers on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, that call. We are confident that the sector has the skills, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): Speaking knowledge and drive to bounce back. as the retail Minister, let me say that I hope the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) Edward Miliband: Let me join the Minister in expressing realises that although the Secretary of State is not here, deep sympathy for those who are at risk of losing their we take this incredibly seriously. That is why I want to jobs. The test of Government, and indeed the House, is focus on the detail, because it is a worrying time for the whether that sympathy translates into action, so I have retail sector, particularly for those affected by the four specific questions for him. announcements this week. First, Philip Green owes workers at Arcadia a moral On Monday, Arcadia Group Ltd, which employs duty. His family took from the company a dividend approximately 13,000 people, appointed administrators, worth £1.2 billion, the largest in UK history, more than who are assessing all options available to the group. three times the size of the pension deficit. Workers at They will honour orders made over the black Friday Arcadia should not pay the price of Philip Green’s weekend. No redundancies have yet been announced greed, so will the Minister now publicly call for Philip and existing sales channels will continue to operate Green to make good any shortfall in the pension scheme, while administrators evaluate options. The Secretary of and will he ensure that the Pensions Regulator takes all State has written to the Insolvency Service asking that it possible steps to make sure that that happens? expedites consideration of the administrators’ report. Secondly, we need to learn lessons. In the summer, Yesterday, Debenhams, which employs approximately Labour tabled amendments to the Corporate Governance 12,000 people, announced the decision of administrators and Insolvency Bill to make pension fund holders priority to wind down the company. No redundancies have been creditors when businesses went bust. The Minister said announced and existing sales channels will continue to it was not necessary. Does he now agree that that was a operate while administrators evaluate options. We know mistake, that that change would have better protected that this will be a worrying time for employees and their the pensions at Arcadia and that this should be put families, and we stand ready to support them. I pay a right through legislation in the future? particular tribute to the hard-working staff, who have Thirdly, on the workers at Debenhams and Arcadia kept these well recognised businesses going in difficult facing redundancy, given the scale of redundancies and times for so long. the grim economic backdrop, will the Minister look at Although the Government have no role in the strategic providing specific and targeted help for them to get direction or management of private retail companies, back into work? Fourthly, we have an emergency on our we are in regular contact with both companies and the high streets, with an estimated 20,000 shops closing and administrators in order to understand fully the situation 200,000 workers losing their jobs since the economic they are facing. The coronavirus crisis has made life crisis began. While we welcome the support that has difficult for retailers such as Arcadia and Debenhams, been provided, will he recognise that the Government particularly those that were already facing challenging must do more: extend the rent evictions moratorium trading conditions before the pandemic. We acted quickly beyond December, when it is due to expire; increase at the start of the pandemic to deliver one of the most support for hospitality businesses, which was called for generous and comprehensive economic packages in the across the House yesterday; and address the massive world. It included: the coronavirus job retention scheme, disadvantage that high street businesses face around which up to 30 September had provided £7.7 billion-worth business rates compared with online retailers? of support to companies in the retail and wholesale Today is a day of great news on the vaccine, but the sector; removing all eligible properties in the retail, Government have a massive responsibility to preserve hospitality and leisure sectors from business rates for the businesses and jobs we will need on the other side of 12 months—that is worth more than £10 billion; cash this crisis. They are still not acting on a scale that meets grants of up to £25,000 for retail, hospitality and leisure the economic emergency our country faces. They need businesses with a rateable value of between £15,000 and to do so. £51,000; more than £50 billion in business loans, which supported 9.6 million jobs and provided flexibility; and Paul Scully: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman legislation to protect commercial tenants from eviction. for raising some really important points. On pension Through the plan for jobs, we have also announced a schemes and support for those facing redundancy, the series of measures to protect, support and create jobs, majority of defined pension schemes are run effectively. including our £2 billion kickstart scheme and a doubling We are fortunate to have a robust and flexible system of of the number of frontline work coaches, which will be pension protection in the UK. The independent Pensions important in this situation in particular. The Government Regulator has a range of powers to protect pension 315 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 2 DECEMBER 2020 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 316 Support and Job Retention Support and Job Retention schemes, and it works closely with those involved. For Plus. We will make sure there is support for people in schemes where the employer goes insolvent, the Pension finding jobs and for retaining as many jobs as possible Protection Fund is there to help protect the members. on our high streets. Anybody already in receipt of a pension will continue to be paid, and other members will receive at least Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Pension Protection Fund compensation levels.The Pension Strathspey) (SNP) [V]: I am sure the Minister agrees Protection Fund is confident that its funding plan that there is a great deal of public affection for the investment approach positions it well to weather the Arcadia brands and in particular for Debenhams. While current market volatility and future challenges. we must hope that redundancies can be avoided wherever It would not be appropriate at this stage for Ministers possible, this is a sad day for our embattled high streets. to comment on individual cases, which are a matter for All our thoughts are with the thousands of workers, the regulator. However, in respect of staff facing possible including those in my constituency, many of whom redundancy, the Department for Work and Pensions’ have given years, or even decades, of service in retail, rapid response service has been in ongoing conversations who will be devastated by this news. They must be given with Debenhams and has now been in contact with all the help they can get to ensure that all their pension Arcadia. Both have been offered support by the rapid rights are retained. Will the Minister ensure that Sir Philip response service, including connecting people to jobs in Green’s obligations to pensions are met, and will his the labour market, helping with job search—including Department work with trade unions to make sure that CV writing, interview skills, where to find jobs and how the workers are treated fairly and adequately supported to apply for them—helping to identify transferable skills through the process? and skills gaps linked to the local labour market and Like others, many of the workers will face difficulty what benefits they may get and how to claim. I talked in putting food on the table and finding a new job or about the fact that we have doubled the number of retraining in a crowded market. They will need the workplace support staff in Jobcentre Plus.Clearly,knowing safety net of universal credit to make ends meet. I urge where the big stores are, for Debenhams in particular, the Minister to use his best efforts and to work with we will be able to offer that sort of targeted support. colleagues to retain the £20 a week uplift and to scrap The right hon. Gentleman talked about his proposed the planned benefit cap that will cost an average of changes to the Corporate Insolvency and Governance £250 a month. Universal credit is already not enough; Bill. This was a matter of balance, because elevating taking away the uplift is taking food from people’s pension debts, which can often be quite large, will by its tables. very nature dilute the amount available to trade and We need to remember that many small businesses in credit suppliers, but also to other suppliers, including local supply chains will be affected by the news. Some of people with unpaid wages.It is trying to get that complexity them will not survive without support, while the owners and balance right. of others will be joining the 3 million people who have Finally,the right hon. Gentleman talks about hospitality been excluded from support. The Government cannot and support for other sectors. Clearly, the high street is continue to ignore them. I urge the Minister again to an ecosystem—it is not only about shops and retail. We finally get support to this group, who are becoming need to make sure that we do as much as we can to increasingly desperate. continue to wrap our arms around the economy at this particularly challenging time. As he acknowledges, there Paul Scully: The existing commitments made to the is light at the end of the tunnel, but we must not take Pensions Regulator do indeed need to be kept—it is our foot off the gas. We must remain alert, in terms of important to say that. our own behaviours, as community members going up and down the high street, shopping local where we can The hon. Gentleman talks about support for employees. to support retailers as they remain open, but also as a If people need financial support quickly, they may be Government, making sure that we support the retail able to claim universal credit and/or employment and and hospitality sectors through both the support that I support allowance. Our plan for jobs includes a series of mentioned but also through encouraging them to be measures to protect, support and create jobs, because it able to trade and remain open in all three tiers as best is important to get the people affected back into work we can. as soon as possible. We have our £238 million job entry targeted support programme to support that. Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): I am sure the The hon. Gentleman also talks about the possibility thoughts of the whole House will be with employees of of suppliers losing out. Administrators will take over Debenhams and Arcadia, who face huge uncertainty the company and seek to establish the position regarding this week, particularly in the run-up to Christmas. suppliers. The trade credit reinsurance scheme is designed These are long-standing bastions of the high street. to support businesses coping with the economic impacts However, both organisations have been struggling for of covid-19 and to ensure that there is adequate confidence quite some time; indeed, Debenhams has been in and credit in supply chains. administration since January. While no redundancies have yet been announced, many of my constituents will be affected. Can my hon. Friend assure me that, if the Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) worst were to happen, the Government are ready to (Con) [V]: As my hon. Friend is aware, the Arcadia support anyone affected, whether through jobcentres or Group is headquartered in my constituency and its universal credit? brands, including Debenhams and Topshop, have their flagship stores on Oxford Street. Covid has the potential Paul Scully: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I to be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for bricks- know her constituents will be concerned about this. We and-mortar retailers. The New West End Company and are prepared to step up concentration within Jobcentre I welcome the continuing support of my hon. Friend 317 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 2 DECEMBER 2020 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 318 Support and Job Retention Support and Job Retention [Nickie Aiken] work so close to Christmas and in such an uncertain time. Will the Minister’s Department work with local and his Department for the retail sector. I note the authorities to support them to offer more flexible rates Government’s announcement this week on extending terms to new businesses that want to come in and set up shopping trading hours for Monday to Saturday until in the large voids that a lot of town centres will be January but, particularly in the short term, an extension experiencing in their retail spaces? Those voids affect of Sunday trading hours would be of huge benefit to town centres and communities. What can the Department retailers. Will my hon. Friend support me, on do to work with local authorities to lower the barriers Sunday newspaper, retailers such as Marks & Spencer to new entrants into the retail sector? and others who are campaigning to extend Sunday trading? Paul Scully: There are plenty of things on which we can work together with the sector and, indeed, the Paul Scully: I look forward to joining the New West whole gamut of British high street businesses, including End Company and, I assume, my hon. Friend on Saturday by talking about getting the rent balance right between to celebrate not only Small Business Saturdaybut traffic-free landlords and tenants, as well as rates, as the hon. Lady shopping in the west end. The west end accounts for says. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury is joining 3% of the entire UK economy and many, many jobs. We me on tomorrow’s Retail Sector Council call that I do not propose to extend Sunday trading at this stage, mentioned, to talk about the fundamental business but we are extending shopping hours throughout the rates review. I hope we will be able to work with local weekdays. We want to work with local authorities to authorities to get that flexibility. make sure that they can support the safe return of shoppers to high streets up and down the country, Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): Does my hon. including in the west end. Friend agree that Dudley Council and other local leaders in my constituency will play an instrumental role in Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab): The collapse rebuilding and revitalising the high street? Will he confirm of Arcadia and Debenhams are two big examples of the that the high streets taskforce will stand ready to provide broader challenge of survival in the high street-based whatever advice may be needed in this endeavour? retail sector. Every job lost and every store closed is devastating for families and communities across the Paul Scully: I know that my hon. Friend works entire country. The Business, Energy and Industrial tirelessly for his constituency and local economy. It is so Strategy Committee has today written to the Secretary important that we get together to look at the high street, of State, and I know we will have full answers in due because many of these conversations were about what course, but may I ask the Minister one specific question the high street will look like in 10 or 15 years’ time, but about support for small businesses in the retail supply now they are about what the high street will look like chain? I wish to push him a bit further on whether there next year and maybe only the year after. We have to get will be specific support—perhaps a taskforce—for small a speedy but holistic response. retail businesses, to help with the hundreds of millions of pounds of orders that could go unpaid. Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab) [V]: The business rate relief for retailers this year has been welcome, Paul Scully: I cannot give specifics on a taskforce or but it was obviously not sufficient for Debenhams and any other group, but we will look acutely at what we can Arcadia and all their employees, who will tragically lose do for supply chains and the future of the high street. their jobs just before Christmas. There is a fundamental When flagship stores like the 200-odd-year-old Debenhams unfairness in the fact that Amazon pays only 0.7% of its leave our high streets, it is so important to make sure turnover in business rates and high street retailers pay that we have a co-ordinated response. I will happily 2% or more. Last year, the Housing, Communities and work with the hon. Gentleman on that. Local Government Committee suggested that the Government look at bringing in a digital sales tax and Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) use the money to provide long-term business rate relief (Con) [V]: My hon. Friend, and the whole House, is for retailers on the high street. Given that the Government concerned about the numbers of jobs potentially lost in promised to look at business rate reform in 2015, will the Arcadia Group, but we also have to be concerned they now get on with it and give that certainty of about those employed by microbusinesses, perhaps without reduced business rates to the high street as a matter of premises, who have so far not benefited from Government urgency? schemes to support them. Will he think again about those who so far have not had Government support and Paul Scully: That is an important question, and it is may well be adversely impacted by the news we have heard exactly why we are doing fundamental business rates about Arcadia if they work in the retail supply chain? reform. The first stage of the consultation has ended, and we will respond in the new year, but we need to have Paul Scully: My right hon. Friend raises a really a comprehensive approach to tackle this both online important point. We have wrapped our arms around and offline. the economy, but clearly it is very difficult to do things at pace to cover everybody. We will always make sure Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): The Risborough that we reflect on what happens, to help as many people basket is an innovative scheme founded by Princes as we can and try to fill the cracks as best we can. Risborough Town Council in my constituency, with a mission to keep the pound in the town, enabling local Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): I, too, express shoppers to buy from small independent retailers and my sympathies to all those employees of Debenhams have their purchases personally delivered. It is a real and the Arcadia Group who find themselves out of boost to those high street businesses, but in setting up 319 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 2 DECEMBER 2020 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 320 Support and Job Retention Support and Job Retention the scheme, they have come across a number of regulatory administrators and support them, so that where there is burdens. Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating potential for shops to continue as a going concern, that everyone who set up the Risborough basket and commit is explored and supported? to working with them, so that we can get rid of those regulatory burdens and ensure that such schemes can Paul Scully: I agree that it is so important that we help high streets up and down the land? continue a viable business where it is possible, and I know that the administrators will have that at heart. Paul Scully: The Risborough basket is one of those brutally simple schemes that are from the grassroots up. Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con): The news It is fantastic to hear about that innovation, and I about Debenhams and Arcadia will cause many concerns would love to see what we can do to spread it across the as we head into Christmas. Can my hon. Friend reiterate country, never mind working with the council to get rid the support that the Government will make available to of some of the burdens in bureaucracy and regulation the employees who face an uncertain future? Further to to help it prosper. that, this year alone in Barrow, we have lost M&S and Topshop, so Debenhams will be another heavy blow. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: What support will the Government provide to offer Mr Speaker, thank you so much for the opportunity to hope to the high street in future? ask this young Minister to take a message back to No. 10 and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. As someone Paul Scully: In terms of employees, as well as universal who worked in retail as a young man, and as a Co-op credit and access to other support through Jobcentre Member of Parliament, I know about retail. We have a Plus, we will connect people to jobs in the labour workforce facing redundancy and hardship at Christmas. market, help with their employment skills, such as CV What we want from this Government is a strategy and writing, interview skills and so on, and identify transferable leadership, not crocodile tears. A fifth of young people skills. It is, though, so important that we do more than have lost their jobs. With 20,000 jobs, the kickstart that for our high streets to create the opportunities for programme has hardly touched young people’s lives. those people to take up, through the future high streets Will he get on with it and take that message back to fund and the work that we are doing with the Retail No. 10? Sector Council and others at every level of government. Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): The Minister will be Paul Scully: The hon. Gentleman talks about me aware that a third of all retail jobs are held by people being young, which he can do many times over, but as under the age of 25, and that a huge number of retail he says, retail is largely staffed by young people and workers are women, because it allows flexible working those on comparatively low pay, so there is so much we and part-time hours. He will also be aware that many can do. The strategy comes not just from Government jobs in retail are highly skilled. It is a complete but from working with the sector. The Retail Sector misconception that working in retail is not skilled and Council can take a long-term view, but we can also that, in years gone by, it was not a job or a profession work with retailers on the short-term covid response. for life. What specific support will the Minister put in This is something for all of us to tackle. place to offer to young people and to women, who will be more disproportionately affected by this and who Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): Not many of my have also been more disproportionately affected by the constituents will shed a tear for Philip Green, but we covid pandemic, to ensure that we do not have a lost should be profoundly concerned about the 25,000 jobs generation of young people when it comes to finding at risk of redundancy. The high street has been under their first job? unprecedented pressure. I welcome the remarks that my hon. Friend made about the business rates review, but Paul Scully: Essentially, it is about creating those jobs will he commit this afternoon to an extension of another and opportunities on the high street to ensure that we six to 12 months in which rates are either reduced or can keep retail and expand the offering on our high reprieved, to give the high street the best chance of streets. Clearly, though, we need to ensure that we have recovery? that skills transfer work at jobcentre level and elsewhere to encourage our young people to take up those Paul Scully: I know that those in the Treasury will opportunities. have listened to that, and they are very aware, particularly in relation to retail and hospitality, of the cliff edge that Mr Speaker: Order. Before we go to Bob Blackman, comes when business rates are due to return at the end let me try to help, because I know how important it is to of April. We will certainly look at that, and an everybody to get on with the Order Paper, by saying announcement will be forthcoming. that we need to speed up the answers and speed up the questions. I do not want to miss out people, but we may Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): In 1791, have to if we do not speed up. I am sure that Bob Susannah Towsey, a draper and haberdasher, moved to Blackman will provide us with a good example of speed. more commodious premises on Eastgate Street in Chester. She became Susannah Brown, and Browns of Chester Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: Debenhams still trades today at the retail heart of Chester, as part of in Harrow town centre is an anchor store to the town Debenhams. As with other retail premises, it has been centre. When Debenhams went into administration, undermined by dodgy sale and leaseback property deals 20 stores across its network were due to close. Fortunately, led by private equity firms, which has not helped the Harrow was not one of them. However, this has a situation. Browns is one of Debenhams’s stores that long-term effect on the entirety of Harrow town centre, trades well, at a profit. Will the Minister speak to so will my hon. Friend—[Inaudible.] 321 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 2 DECEMBER 2020 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 322 Support and Job Retention Support and Job Retention Mr Speaker: Minister, can you pick out the best work in Debenhams and Arcadia stores, particularly of that? the flagship store at the St Nicholas Centre in Sutton. Will he join me in meeting the affected workers should Paul Scully: I think my hon. Friend was talking about the worst happen at that flagship store in Sutton, and anchor stores and the effect on the high street. I know reassure them that the Government are doing all they him very well, so I can predict his question. Yes, if we can to support them? take out an anchor store, we hollow out a high street, so it is so important that we look at this holistically, work Paul Scully: Indeed. As well as being a Minister, I am together with local government, national Government clearly a constituency MP, and Debenhams is also at and with retailers themselves to build up our high the heart of my high street. I will certainly continue to streets and shape them anew. meet constituents affected by this and other issues around the high street. (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): Ellesmere Port, like many places, has seen an exodus Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): The from the high street over the past decade, which has Government’ssupport for business has been unprecedented been accelerated in the past year. Of course, it is no and unparalleled, particularly in the retail sector. The coincidence that, at the same time, online retail is booming, Minister is right to call it an ecosystem, because it does but my constituents do not judge the vibrancy of an have a far-reaching effect on the economy. Does he area by the number of delivery drivers up their street; agree that we have seen incredible creativity and resilience they judge it by the number of boarded-up shops in in our local communities and on our high streets, including their town centres. Therefore, we need a consistent from residents and retailers in Hertford, who have formed funded plan for the high street, but, just as importantly, the Hertford hub and the Bishop’s Stortford business we need a level playing field so that high street shops improvement district; and that, while we should look at have a chance of competing. Can the Minister assure us business rates and so on, it is working with and supporting that we will get that? those communities that will let the sector create, thrive and survive? Paul Scully: Indeed, high streets will certainly change, but we need to get the balance right between online and Paul Scully: It is so much about a “grassroots up” bricks and mortar as well, because both have a really approach. It is great to hear about the Hertford hub and important position to play in our retail offering. the Bishop’s Stortford BID. There are some brilliant examples of BIDs and initiatives; I would like to hear Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): more. In just three towns in my constituency, 27 shops have either closed or are about to close because of the Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) [V]: pandemic. Will my hon. Friend commit today to use the Retail trade union, the Union of Shop, Distributive and Government’s very generous package of measures to Allied Workers, has said that it is seeking urgent meetings retail businesses at all levels of Government—from with Arcadia’s administrators in a bid to preserve jobs. central Government to local government to local enterprise It is crucial that the voice of staff is heard over the partnerships—to follow the Prime Minister’s lead to future of business in all circumstances. What reassurance encourage a massive return to the high streets now that can the Minister give that this request will be met? we are allowed to do so under the guidance? Paul Scully: Clearly, the administrators will do their Paul Scully: It is really important that, as we extend work under their own purview, but I encourage them to hours for retailers to be able to open up for Christmas, ensure that they look at the whole issue to keep as many we rip up and peel back on our bureaucracy as well. We viable jobs going and as many viable parts of the must also encourage local authorities to do more such business going as possible, so as not to hollow out our as offering free parking and other such things. high streets. Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab) The high street is facing utter devastation in the next [V]: This is an awful situation for every high street and few months, unless drastic action is taken. Will the retail park across the country, and even more so for the Minister undertake, in conjunction with the Treasury, 25,000 people at Arcadia and Debenhams who are at to discuss a proposal that I put to the Chancellor three risk of losing their jobs just before Christmas. In outlining months ago? The banks and building societies are currently what action the Government are taking to support the sitting on almost £200 billion in current accounts and people affected, will the Minister specifically highlight deposit accounts, paying 0% interest. A 1% voucher any discussions that the Government are having with would release £2 billion to be spent on the high street the Welsh Government, so that any support packages only, at no cost to the taxpayer, and would bring a from both Governments can be co-ordinated? benefit equivalent to that which was seen in Jersey in the summer and which hopefully will be seen in Northern Paul Scully: Given that these businesses are big brand Ireland next month, as a similar voucher scheme is names, this is clearly an issue for the whole UK. We will going to be discussed and released there. continue to work with and listen to the devolved Administrations, and to speak to them about what Paul Scully: It is certainly something that I will ask support we can look at across the UK as a whole. the Treasury to look at and discuss with me. Darren Henry (Broxtowe) (Con): Hospitality businesses Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): are a vital part of our high streets. Winter is the time As my constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend will be that these businesses, like many others, make their plans aware that many Carshalton and Wallington residents for the next season. They are currently planning in the 323 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 2 DECEMBER 2020 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 324 Support and Job Retention Support and Job Retention dark, having been singled out for restrictions and excluded evidence of spread of the virus in the pub sector, he will from the Christmas bubble proposals. Therefore, many now have to throw away thousands more in stock. He is will have no option but to make some very difficult now wondering whether he can survive. So I ask the decisions this Christmas. Does my hon. Friend agree Minister: did he pluck the figure out of the air, and does that we need to consider a longer-term recovery for this his Department think that £1,000 will really be able to vital component of the high street, and that there is a save our pubs and, in turn, our high streets? case to make the 5% VATrate more permanent—extending it to the end of the financial year—which might help to Paul Scully: Wet-led pubs have a particular issue address the issues of rent, debt and an uncertain cash where they are not offering food, and £1,000 does not flow going into 2021? go far enough in itself, but it does go alongside the other payments such as the forbearance on rent, the Paul Scully: My hon. Friend is working hard for his moratorium that is still in place until the end of the hospitality sector offering in Broxtowe. I will be leaving year, business rates relief, and VAT relief on certain this place to speak to hospitality sector representatives areas of food—although not necessarily in that pub. I immediately after this urgent question, and they will will continue to work with the hospitality sector. It is have a number of those asks. I look at this sympathetically important to say, as the hon. Lady said, that those in because, as I have said, the high street is an ecosystem; hospitality should not be scapegoated, because they we must all work together to support the business have done so much work to make sure that they can community as a whole. offer a covid 19-secure and warm welcome to their customers. (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: It is a very worrying time for those employed by Debenhams Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con): Guildford High and Arcadia stores in Denton, Stockport and , Street is not only picturesque but is home to one of the and indeed right across the country.Greater Manchester’s finest retail offerings in the south-east, including Debenhams independent prosperity review identified structural changes and Arcadia brands. We acknowledge not only the in the retail sector due to the rise of e-commerce, and difficult uncertainty for employees today but the significant sadly we are seeing a rapid acceleration in these changes square footage that these businesses occupy and the due to the pandemic. What are the Government doing gaps that they will leave behind. Does my hon. Friend to put in place a strategic plan for the sector, including agree that the Government must actively work to help retraining and reskilling into digital roles in the sector the high street to recover from coronavirus and also and in adjacent industries? adapt to the long-term changes that will make our town centres sustainable for the future? Paul Scully: We are working with the retail sector itself, including online businesses like Amazon and Paul Scully: I know Guildford very well. It is a Asos, and bricks and mortar businesses providing the destination for residents around Surrey and further retail brands that we all know and love, to make sure afield. Yes, we must all work together to get the balance that we can get the whole gamut of retail together as right so that we do not hollow out our town centres, one and look at the long-term prospects, including including Guildford. digitisation and increasing the skills of retailers and Charlotte Nichols ( North) (Lab): The those wanting to go into the sector. Debenhams liquidation is a tragedy not only for the thousands of Debenhams employees but for all retailers Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): Workers at in shopping centres like Warrington’s Golden Square, Debenhams, Dorothy Perkins, Evans, Miss Selfridge, where Debenhams is the anchor department store driving Burton, Top Man and Top Shop in Dudley South face a footfall for the whole centre. With Arcadia brand stores really worrying time, but the challenges facing retail go in Golden Square also at risk, and confidence in the much wider. Can my hon. Friend therefore confirm that wider retail sector waning, what specific support will the £1 billion future high streets fund will be accelerated, shopping centres like Golden Square get to protect all and will he join me on a visit to Brierley Hill so that he its retailers, their employees, and the vibrancy of our can see for himself how much our bid will transform the town centres? town centre and help to support retail jobs in my constituency? Paul Scully: In terms of shopping centres it is really important that we get the balance right between landlords Paul Scully: Owing to the restrictions it is nice to be and tenants. The moratorium helps tenants but clearly offered a trip anywhere, so I will be more than happy to does not help landlords, so we have to get the balance take that up. Yes indeed—the future high streets fund is right. We will work with the retail sector to try to a really important initiative along the way of tackling achieve that balance in the weeks and months to come. the issues in retail and our high streets as a whole. I wish my hon. Friend well in his bid. The results will be Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): The Dorothy announced shortly. Perkins in Newcastle-under-Lyme was already closed earlier during the pandemic, and we have also lost (Blackburn) (Lab) [V]: There is a major tenants such as Laura Ashley and Debenhams in my constituency and my thoughts are Woollen Mill during this pandemic, so I welcome what with the staff at this time, but sadly it is not the only we are doing with the future high streets fund. We have business going to the wall. Yesterday I spoke to Barry, a bid in with the Ministry of Housing, Communities who runs the Bee Hive pub in Blackburn, and he and Local Government. Can the Minister confirm that described the Prime Minister’sannouncement of £1,000 for it will be accelerated? We need to hear about that bid as pubs as a slap in the face. Barry has spent thousands on soon as we can so we can get our towns fund bid in making sure that his pub was covid-secure, and with no as well. 325 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 2 DECEMBER 2020 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 326 Support and Job Retention Support and Job Retention Paul Scully: I wish my hon. Friend every success in parking charges in the region, while other towns in the that bid—the announcement will be forthcoming. It is area face none. Would the Minister agree that the local important that we have small business Saturday coming authority should at least ensure there is a level playing up this Saturday, and we must make sure independent field, and perhaps reconsider its decision to reject some stores thrive. However, the brands he talks about that initiatives for December to introduce free parking to are going do drag footfall towards those smaller businesses, encourage people back on to the high street? which is why we need to look at the high street as a whole. Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend, and he is Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]: Debenhams is a absolutely right. When people are bringing back their cornerstone employer in Bangor city centre. Its closure heavy bags—after a long evening’s shopping, hopefully, will be a severe blow to the staff who have worked there in the lead-up to Christmas—just a simple token like loyally for many years, and even more so now, I am free parking or cheaper parking can really help drive afraid, because North Wales Mersey Dee Business Council footfall and support our local high streets. reports that, across the region, 17% of businesses in retail and hospitality have already made redundancies. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab) [V]: Debenhams workers Thinking creatively, what consideration has the Minister have expressed concern about the performance of the given to material Government support specifically for administrators. There has been a lack of communication repurposing large retail spaces into smaller, short-term, and delays in registering redundancies with the redundancy start-up units? payments service, which in turn has led to delayed Paul Scully: We always work with local authorities to payments to the workers themselves. What can the see what initiatives can come up. We work closely with Minister do to ensure that the rights of workers are them because it is typically the local authorities, local protected in these situations? enterprise partnerships and other business groupings in each local area that know their local economy, and we Paul Scully: Clearly, as I have said, there are measures are always happy to look at any initiatives. in place that govern the administrators, but we will keep on top of this. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con): As a student, I State has already written to the administrators to expedite worked for the then Burton Group, and I know how the report. We will also follow up to make sure we keep vital retail jobs are, especially for students and young an eye on them to support workers not only through the people. Can my hon. Friend confirm for my constituents administrators and redundancy phase, but back into in Darlington who worked at Topshop, Burton and good work. Dorothy Perkins the steps he is taking to provide support, advice and assistance to them? Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con): As my hon. Friend will know, I was a furniture retailer Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend, and I commend for many years prior to arriving in this place. This year his work in retail before; many others around the House has been hugely challenging for our high streets, and my have done such work. Yes, as well as offering them thoughts are first and foremost with the employees of support through universal credit and other benefits, we Arcadia and Debenhams. Does my hon. Friend agree will work with them through the Jobcentre Plus and its with me that the Government must continue to actively frontline workers to help them with CV writing, creating work to help high streets both recover from coronavirus opportunities for and sharing opportunities with them, and, more importantly, adapt to the more long-term and ensuring that transferable skills have a massive role challenges that our town centres are facing at the moment? to play in that. Paul Scully: I know that my hon. Friend’s experience Alex Norris ( North) (Lab/Co-op): Up as a retailer, and his other work, will be massive in the and down high streets in Nottingham, businesses big months to come. Yes, we must ensure that we shape the and small are really worried about their viability in the change of high streets. We must allow businesses to early parts of next year. They look at us talking about pivot to allow for that change, so that our high streets Debenhams and Arcadia today, and they think we will can survive and thrive. be back in January, February and March talking about them unless something changes. I ask the Minister the Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): Like many same question they are asking me: beyond reviews and others, I am concerned about the many workers across promises of reform in the future, what support is coming Edinburgh and in my constituency who will today be now to keep our high streets viable? worried about their jobs with Arcadia. My constituency Paul Scully: We are keeping our high streets viable by also contains a number of independent shops that are giving people business rates relief and giving businesses struggling and need a level playing field with the online a moratorium to make sure they cannot be evicted and behemoths of this world, such as Amazon. I have a cannot be chased for rent debts, but, most importantly, suggestion and plan to offer postage support for those by keeping retail open in all three tiers so that they can independent businesses, in the same way as the Government actually trade their way out of this. What they want is helped the hospitality sector. Would the Minister be not handouts, ideally, although they do need the support; prepared to meet me to discuss that? they want customers. They want customers for long- term support. Paul Scully: I will happily meet the hon. Lady. She mentioned independent retailers, and it is important to Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): But realise that big anchor stores have a massive effect on our high streets need all the help that they can get, and smaller businesses if they hollow out the high streets. It the towns of Crewe and Nantwich are facing the highest is important to look at both sectors alike. 327 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 2 DECEMBER 2020 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 328 Support and Job Retention Support and Job Retention Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con): I too earned Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) [V]: In Harlow, we my spurs in retail at Woolworths and Home Bargains. have an excellent Topshop that has done very well, and This year has been incredibly challenging for high street clearly the staff are worried about their pensions and retailers, and my thoughts are with the employees of their jobs. Surely, the time has come for legislation to Arcadia and Debenhams. Does my hon. Friend agree stop these robber barons who own these big companies, that we must not only work actively to help high streets who plunder the assets, with the taxpayer left to foot the recover from the pandemic, but also consider all the bill and anxious employees losing their jobs and pensions. other long-term issues they face, from car parking charges We should make sure that we seize the assets of those to businesses rates? I co-chair the all-party parliamentary big vulture capitalists and get the money that the hard- group on the future of retail, and we would very much working employees deserve. like to see the Minister at its next meeting to discuss those issues. Paul Scully: My right hon. Friend raises some important points. There is already legislation and regulation in Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend—his experience place to look at this. That is why my right hon. Friend will be valuable, and I would be happy to join him at the the Secretary of State has written to the administrators APPG. It is important not just to consider the immediacy to make sure that they can expedite the report looking of this, but the fact that with the new normal there is a at directors’ behaviour, not just in the immediate weeks new reality—a behaviour change that is baked into but looking back to see if anything untoward has people’s approach to the high street. It is important to happened. get right that long-term strategic view. (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab) [V]: The job Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): I am deeply losses resulting from what is happening at Arcadia and concerned by the situation facing Debenhams, which is Debenhams are on top of a series of devastating job a key part of Glasgow city centre, as well as the stores losses across the north-west. Vacancies are scarce and operated by Arcadia. My thoughts are with the staff, people have few places left to turn. In Liverpool, West and I know that the Scottish Government stand ready Derby, we have had increases of over 100% in both with a pay scheme if it is required. Has the Minister youth unemployment and universal credit claimants established whether HMRC’s Crown preference rules, since March. Will the Government now commit to which came into force yesterday, had any bearing on the cancelling their heartless plan to cut universal credit, decision by Arcadia to go into administration on Monday? which will take £20 a week from struggling families in Has he calculated how much HMRC stands to lose as a my constituency? result? Paul Scully: To flip the question slightly, I know that Paul Scully: I have not had any information or a number of people up and down the country have been consideration of that issue as yet. appreciative of the Government’s increase in universal credit to make sure that we can help them through this Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) [V]: Does the Minster particularly acute time. Clearly, as I say, we will continue agree that the best way to save these businesses is for to work not only to support people who are out of a job people to keep shopping at them? Can he assure people but to make sure that we can create jobs and opportunities that their rights are protected if they buy vouchers, for them to get back into good work. shop online, or want to return items after Christmas? Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Retail is at Paul Scully: That is a really important issue, and my the heart of our local high streets, and the Government’s hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that these businesses huge programme of support has been vital in keeping it want people to trade. At the moment, both Arcadia and going. Will my hon. Friend join me in encouraging my Debenhams have said that they will accept vouchers, constituents to back Barnet and to come out and shop and I encourage anybody who is shopping at either local on small business Saturday? store to use their credit card if they are spending more than £100, because then the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Paul Scully: My right hon. Friend absolutely nails it, kicks in. At this moment, vouchers are accepted. as usual, in supporting her independent retailers—her small businesses. They are the backbone; 99.7% of Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): Will the Minister businesses in this country are small and medium-sized accept that although Putney high street is very much enterprises. She is absolutely right, and I encourage loved and the centre of our local community, people are everybody, both in Barnet and across the country, to concerned about the fact that covid is accelerating the shop local and get out there and spend money where number of shops that are going? Will he consider a possible to make sure that there is a high street to enjoy reform of the business rates, and of the meanwhile use for years to come. rules, so that we can have more community activities in our shops on the high street? Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): Arcadia entering administration and Debenhams going into Paul Scully: There is a really good community in liquidation is devastating news, with thousands facing Putney—I was there a few months ago at the business the risk of losing their jobs, but this is also an issue of improvement district—and the more we can strip away greed, with Philip Green having paid his family a tax-free through encouraging innovation through meanwhile dividend almost three and a half times more than use provisions, the better. I have spoken about the Arcadia’s current pension pot deficit. Does the Minister fundamental review of business rates, and it is important agree that while Philip Green retains his fortune, employees that we look at the whole thing. should not end up paying the price with their pensions? 329 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 2 DECEMBER 2020 Arcadia and Debenhams: Business 330 Support and Job Retention Support and Job Retention [Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi] Paul Scully: This is an important situation. Our hearts must all go out, as they have done today, to the Paul Scully: The hon. Gentleman raises an important employees of both Arcadia and Debenhams. In terms point. Clearly, as I say, the Pensions Regulator has of an online sales tax, that is something we will look at significant powers here, and we will make sure that it in the fundamental business rates review. It is important has the space and ability to do its job. that our high streets survive. There is an understanding that online businesses have an important role to play, Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con): My heart goes but they must pay their fair share of taxes. out to all those affected by the collapse of Arcadia and Debenhams, both of which affect my Workington Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): The challenges that constituency—particularly Workington town centre, Arcadia and Debenhams face existed before covid, but which has a Debenhams anchor. Alongside the stronger they have been accelerated by it as people move online. towns fund, the Government’s future high streets fund The Minister outlined the very substantial support the will be crucial to helping town centres not only recover Government are providing to retailers, but, to follow but adapt in the future. In the light of unprecedented the question from the hon. Member for Aberdeen South challenges this year, can my hon. Friend confirm that (Stephen Flynn), should the Government go further future high streets fund decisions are imminent and that and consider levelling the playing field between bricks the Government will get the cash out of the door and mortar and online retailers through an online sales quickly so that it can have a positive impact as soon as tax? possible? Paul Scully: An online sales tax is one consideration Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend for his work to that the Treasury will look at, but it is more than that. support Workington. The stronger towns fund and the We need to ensure, in the fundamental business rates future high streets fund are two really important instruments review, that there is a connection between businesses, in making sure that we have high streets up and down bricks and mortar retailers, and their place, rather than the country that can survive and thrive and that we can just the customers themselves. There is an important be proud of, and we will make sure that those body of work to be done and I know the Treasury will announcements are forthcoming as soon as possible. have heard the comments and views today.

Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): As Arcadia Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. collapses and jobs are put on the line in Aberdeen and Members participating in this item of business and the across the country, Amazon pays less than £300 million safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am of tax on almost £14 billion of revenue. Does the suspending the House for three minutes. Minister therefore agree that, in order to protect our city centres, we need a level playing field and the 1.35 pm Government must toughen up their digital services tax? Sitting suspended. 331 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 332

Coronavirus Vaccine of our national health service, and I am delighted to confirm that the NHS will be able to start vaccinating 1.38 pm from early next week. The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care The whole purpose of the vaccine is to protect people (Matt Hancock): With permission, I would like to make from covid, so that we can get lives back to normal. We a statement about the coronavirus vaccine. will prioritise the groups who are at greatest risk. This morning, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Today marks a new chapter in our fight against this Immunisation has published its advice, setting out the virus. Ever since the pandemic hit our shores almost a order of priority according to clinical need, and that year ago, we have known that a vaccine would be includes care home residents and their carers, the over-80s critical to set us free. So all through this arduous and frontline health and social care workers. We will year—it has been an arduous year—while we have been deliver according to clinical prioritisation and operational working night and day to fight the virus and keep it necessity. The need to hold the vaccine at -70˚C makes it under control, we have been striving, too, to develop the particularly challenging to deploy. vaccines that can give us hope and let us eventually release the curbs on our freedoms that have bound us While we begin vaccination next week, the bulk of for so long. the vaccinations will be in the new year. I urge anyone called forward for vaccination by the NHS to respond Thanks to the incredible work of the Vaccine Taskforce, quickly to protect themselves, their loved ones and their the Business Secretary and Kate Bingham, we have community. already amassed a huge portfolio of different vaccine candidates. We have backed seven vaccines and ordered Over the next few months, we will see vaccines delivered 357 million doses on behalf of the whole UK, one of in three different ways. First, we will begin vaccinations the biggest portfolios per capita in the world. We have in hospital hubs. Secondly, we will deploy through local said from the start that a vaccine must be safe and community services, including GPs and in due course effective before we would even consider deploying it. pharmacies, too. Thirdly, we will stand up vaccination Any vaccine must go through a rigorous process of centres in conference centres and sports venues, for clinical trials, involving thousands of people and extensive example, to vaccinate large numbers of people as more independent scrutiny from the Medicines and Healthcare vaccines come on stream. This is an important step, but Products Regulatory Agency, one of the world’s most we are not there yet, so I stress that we must all keep respected medical regulators. playing our part, keep following the new rules that the House approved overwhelmingly yesterday and remember Today, I am delighted to inform the House that the the basics, such as “Hands, face space”, and, “Get a MHRA has issued the clinical authorisation of the test”, which we know from experience are so important Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. This is a monumental step in keeping the virus under control. forward. It is no longer “if” there is going to be a vaccine, but “when”. In our battle against the virus, Before I finish, may I also update the House on help is on its way. Today is a triumph for all those who another bit of good news? From today, I am absolutely believe in science, a triumph for ingenuity and a triumph thrilled to say that we can safely allow visits in care for humanity, and I thank everyone who has played homes for those who test negative for covid-19. Coronavirus their part in this achievement. I thank the team at has denied so many people the simple pleasure of seeing Pfizer, the team of scientists at BioNTech, the volunteers a loved one, which is so precious to so many, especially who stepped up and took part in clinical trials, and the in our care homes. This is possible only because of the MHRA itself, which made sure that this is a vaccine we success we have had in building one of the biggest can all have faith in. Thanks to their efforts, I can testing capacities in Europe, with local and national confirm that the UK is the first country in the world to teams working together, side by side—something we have a clinically approved coronavirus vaccine for supply, have often discussed right across this House. We have and now our task is to make use of the fruits of that worked hard on testing. We have worked hard on the scientific endeavour to save lives. vaccine. Our strategy is suppressing the virus until a vaccine can make us safe. That strategy is working, and We have spent months preparing for this day, so that I am delighted that we will be able to see families and as soon as we got the green light, we would be ready to friends come together ahead of Christmas, thanks to go. We were the first country in the world to pre-order this improvement. supplies of this successful vaccine, and we have 40 million doses pre-ordered for delivery over the coming months— This is a day to remember, frankly in a year to forget. enough for 20 million people, because two jabs are We can see the way out of this but we are not there yet, required for each person. Following authorisation, the so let us keep our resolve and keep doing our bit to keep next stage is to test each batch of the vaccine for safety. people safe until science can make us free. I can confirm that batch testing has been completed this morning for the first deployment of 800,000 doses of 1.45 pm vaccine. Those doses are for the whole United Kingdom. Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): This morning, I chaired a meeting of Health Ministers As always, I thank the Secretary of State for advance from the devolved Administrations to ensure the roll-out sight of his statement. This is indeed fantastic news is co-ordinated nationwide. about the Pfizer vaccine, and I join him in congratulating This will be one of the biggest civilian logistical all who have been involved in making this happen. We efforts that we have faced as a nation. It will be difficult. have rightly clapped carers throughout this crisis. I There will be challenges and complications, but I know wonder if we should as a nation come together and that the NHS is equal to the task. Rolling out the applaud our scientists as well one evening. It is also vaccine, free at the point of delivery and according to incumbent on all of us across the House to reinforce the clinical need, not ability to pay, is in the finest tradition case that vaccination saves lives, and if it helps, I will 333 Coronavirus Vaccine 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 334

[Jonathan Ashworth] We of course welcome the Secretary of State’s news on care homes, but many care homes report that they stand alongside the Secretary State, socially distanced will need resources to support the testing exercise. Will of course, on any platform or in any TV studio to show those resources be in place? that we are united cross-party in promoting vaccination. Finally, if mass testing is to work in communities, Our constituents will have legitimate questions and people will need support to isolate, if it is found that they should not be ridiculed for asking them, so will the they have covid when they are not feeling unwell. Will Secretary of State launch a large-scale public information the Secretary of State now expand the eligibility criteria campaign to answer questions and encourage uptake? for the £500 grant? Will he consider sending a pamphlet, perhaps, to every This is a good news day, and we should all pay tribute household? We know that dangerous myths circulate on to everyone who was involved—we should pay tribute to social media, and we repeat our offer to work with the scientists. I will say again, we will work together to Ministers to curb online harms. I hope we can work make the case that vaccinations save lives. together and take something forward on that front. Matt Hancock: The hon. Gentleman has worked Hospital trust staff will start receiving this vaccine supportively and constructively with the Government first. I understand that it is a massive logistical exercise, throughout this pandemic. I pay tribute to the approach given the temperatures and the need for two doses, but that he has taken, and that he took again today. could the Secretary of State tell us how many NHS staff he expects to be vaccinated by January, which is of I stand with the hon. Gentleman in saying that course the time when we expect the NHS to be under vaccinations save lives. If we can encourage anybody the most pressure? who might be hesitant to take a vaccine by appearing together to be vaccinated together, of course I would be Where does this leave social care and care home happy to do that. I recommend that we have a professional residents and staff? There are concerns that this particular vaccinate us, of course—I do not think that he would vaccine cannot be moved multiple times to care homes, trust me to do it. so can he set out exactly how and when care home The hon. Gentleman asked for a public information residents will receive a vaccine? Our constituents will campaign, and there will of course be one. He asked want to know: when will primary care networks start about health inequalities, which are a very important rolling out vaccination, and when will the mass vaccination consideration. The best thing to support tackling health centres he has reported to the House start opening in inequalities is the fact that we have a vaccine, but we our communities? absolutely need to reach all parts and all communities Wehave historic strengths as a country with vaccination, across the whole country. but in recent years we have lost our measles-free status. The hon. Gentleman asked how many will be vaccinated We know that vaccination rates can be lower in poorer by January. While today brings more certainty, it does and vulnerable communities and that covid has often not end all uncertainties. We have 800,000 doses that had a disproportionate impact in these communities, so have now passed the batch testing, but the total number will he ensure that there is a health inequalities strategy to be manufactured over this timeframe is not yet as well in his vaccination campaign, so that black and known, because it is all dependent on the manufacturing minority ethnic groups, and the poorest and the vulnerable, process, which is itself complicated. After all, this is not do not miss out on this vaccine? a chemical but a biological product, so I cannot answer I think we all understand that restrictions will have to that question—that is as yet unknowable. remain in place for some time, but can the Secretary of The hon. Gentleman asked when the PCNs and the State offer us a timeframe or a target for when we centres will open. The answer is very soon. We have should expect to achieve herd immunity and life gets 50 hospital hubs ready to go from next week. The PCNs back to normal? Will he consider publishing a route are also being stood up, and the centres outside hospitals. map of what restrictions could be released as vaccination They are all coming very soon. rates increase? In the meantime, if someone is vaccinated, The hon. Gentleman then asked when we will get to will they still have to isolate if contacted by Test and lift restrictions. Of course, I understand why not only he Trace, or are they now released from that obligation? but almost everybody in the country wants to know the On mass testing, some directors of public health have answer to this question: how many people do we have to told me that the lateral flow tests are not licensed for vaccinate before we can start lifting the restrictions? door-to-door testing in hotspots and therefore can only The answer to that is that, while we know that the be administered at sites. If that is correct, can the vaccine protects an individual with a 95% efficacy, we Secretary of State resolve it? If is not correct, can he do not know the impact of the vaccine on reducing issue urgent clarity to directors of public health? The transmission, because of the problem of asymptomatic Government’s document published on Monday suggests transmission, which has so bedevilled our response to that local areas could use mass testing as a freedom this virus and made it so hard to tackle. pass. Will he outline to the House what that means in We do not know the answer to that question, but practice? Will local areas enforce rules? What happens if what we will do is to follow the same five indicators that some people have had the test but some have not had we were discussing at length yesterday, which are the the test in a particular area that is supposed to be under indicators of the spread of the disease. We will look at tier 3? In the House yesterday, the Prime Minister the cases, the hospitalisations and of course the number suggested that people may want to take advantage of of people who die with covid, and we will hope very mass testing ahead of visiting their families this Christmas. much that, as we vaccinate more and more vulnerable Will the Secretary of State update the House on whether people, we will see those rates come down and therefore that is the plan and how that will be implemented? be able to lift the restrictions. We will have to see how 335 Coronavirus Vaccine 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 336 the vaccination programme impacts directly on the districts and their community volunteer hubs to help to epidemic, and then move as swiftly as we safely can to persuade people to support those who must still isolate lift the restrictions, which we all want to see gone. even if they have been vaccinated? The hon. Gentleman asked about community testing being licensed from door to door. I have not heard Matt Hancock: Dealing with the pandemic has been about that problem—I will ensure that I get back not a case of dealing with uncertainty in large degree. only to him, but to those who raised it with him, if he Today we have more certainty because we know this will work with me. I am a bit surprised to hear that. vaccine is safe and effective, but just as I said to the hon. Administering the lateral flow test currently requires a Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) that professional, although we hope to move on from that, we do not know the effect of the vaccine on transmission, but as far as I know it can take place in any setting, so, as my hon. Friend says, we do not know the longevity hence my surprise. However, as the comment was made of its effectiveness. by a public health professional, I shall dig into it further. My hon. Friend is right about another part of public Finally, the hon. Gentleman talked about the testing health advice that all of us as local representatives can prospectus we launched on Monday. We hope to be able play a part in promoting: that is, engagement with to use testing to do more things that we would not be contact tracing. I will write to him about access to daily able to do without testing. In a way, visits to care homes data in Essex. Of course we have to wait until the test are an example of that, as something we can now safely result comes in, which can sometimes lead to delay, even recommend that we could not recommend before; so though the results of the majority of tests done in too is testing to release from quarantine people coming person now come back within 24 hours, but I agree with into this country. If there are further examples of that him in principle, so let us make it a reality in practice. sort of enablement of normal life through the use of testing that can be safely done and can be approved by a Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]: director of public health and by the chief medical As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on officer and his team, we are enthusiastic about working vaccinations for all, I welcome the authorisation of the with local areas to deliver it on the ground. Pfizer vaccine and echo the shadow Secretary of State’s call for a public health campaign to encourage uptake. There are lots of ideas out there, and I urge people to It will naturally take some time before the vaccine is be creative about how we can we can use testing to widely available, so we all still need to stick to the rules enable some of the things we love to get going again in a and ensure that we can test, trace, isolate and support way that keeps people safe. That is what that part of the all those carrying the virus. testing prospectus was about. I am very enthusiastic Last week, the Secretary of State claimed that the about it and look forward to working with directors of pilot project of mass testing in Liverpool was responsible public health and with colleagues in this House. Yesterday, for driving down cases, despite the city having been the Prime Minister said that with the roll-out of mass under lockdown for much of the time. Lateral flow tests testing and the availability of these tests, we all, as miss up to 40% of cases, so the Government’s plan to leaders in our local communities, have a role in promoting use them to free people from isolation are causing mass testing. I am sure that there are communities concern among many public health and screening experts. across the country represented in this House that can When will the formal assessment of the pilot be published, benefit from the roll-out. and how can he justify already putting out tenders for Looking around the Chamber right now, I see many £40 billion-worth of contracts to extend that approach people who have already approached me—not just from without scientific evaluation? Would it not be better to . I look forward to working with colleagues invest some of that money in getting the traditional in all parts of the House to promote this public health test, trace and isolate system working properly? Six months message, along with all the other important public on, the Serco and Sitel system has still not improved, health messages we have to promote, not least that if and over 40% of contacts in England are still not being the NHS phones you up or sends you a letter saying that informed that they should be isolating. there is a vaccination slot open to you, just say yes. The Secretary of State does not often talk about it, but he knows that it is not testing but isolation that Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): stops the spread of the virus, so if people who are I congratulate my right hon. Friend on this moment carrying the virus are not isolating, no amount of mass and the Government on the news about the Pfizer testing will stop the spread. When I raised the King’s vaccine, but please can we continue to have increased College London report last week which found that less honesty about what we still do not know? We do not than 20% of cases and only 10% of contacts were know how long the immunity will last, we do not even isolating, the Secretary of State claimed that the know whether people who have been vaccinated can Government have data showing much higher compliance. still transmit the disease, and of course we do not know Can he tell us the figures for isolation rates for those whether tier 2 restrictions will succeed in bringing the with covid and their contacts? People will not stay off R rate down. Until we can answer those questions, we work if it means that they cannot feed their family, so is will continue to need maximum effort behind contact he concerned at reports that many requests for the tracing and isolation of virus spreaders. isolation payment are being refused? How will he ensure Councils including Essex County Council need daily that those carrying the virus are financially supported access to all the positive cases recorded by NHS Test to isolate and reduce its spread? and Trace immediately and without delay, so that they can make their own operations effective, so why are they Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady says that I do not talk having to wait 48 to 72 hours before they get the data? about contact tracing very much. I was literally answering Also, what are the Government going to do to engage a question on contact tracing just before her question— 337 Coronavirus Vaccine 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 338

[Matt Hancock] My right hon. Friend rightly asks about making sure we vaccinate those with learning disabilities and offer I talk of little else. We are publishing further data them vaccination at the right point in the prioritisation. tomorrow on contact tracing, precisely in response to I have discussed that important consideration directly the question that she asks. She will see that the continued with the JCVI, which takes into account the higher improvement of our contact tracing across the country mortality of those with any given condition and has is advancing further. I cannot say any more than that, done so in the prioritisation that it set out this morning. because the figures are not being released until tomorrow. Age is the single biggest determinant of mortality from The hon. Lady asked about scientific evaluation. We coronavirus, which is why age is the predominant factor are constantly scientifically evaluating the work that is in the prioritisation, but it is not the only one. That going on, especially in Liverpool. That is one of the matter has been considered by the JCVI and it is things that the scientists who work as part of my team, important that we accept and follow the JCVI advice as in NHS Test and Trace and in Public Health England much as is practicable in the delivery and deployment of do. It is a matter of constant scientific evaluation, but this vaccine. we will not wait until ages after something has finished to do an overly long evaluation. We have to evaluate Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): It is, indeed, a as we go along, because we are constantly trying to fantastic day. I add my thanks and congratulations to improve the response to this pandemic, and we are everybody who has been involved in getting us to this constantly trying to learn. I urge her to support the point, not just in the UK, but worldwide, because this is approach of constant learning and constant improvement. a great example of global scientific collaboration. May We will have to do that through the roll-out of the I also pick up on the point about batch testing, which vaccine too. the Secretary of State mentioned on the radio this morning and in his statement? Will he clarify that if we Dr Whitford indicated dissent. signed up to a mutual recognition agreement with the EU, we would not need to batch test the vaccine again Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady shakes her head, but once it arrives in the UK, which could slow down the that is how we have to deal with a pandemic in practice. process, not least because having enough qualified persons to do the batch release testing could be a real challenge? Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): This is a Is he working on a mutual recognition agreement? huge personal triumph for the Health Secretary, who has always backed the science. In choosing and backing Matt Hancock: We have that mutual recognition on behalf of the country the first vaccine to prove agreement in place now. The hon. Lady is right to point efficacious, he has scored a massive goal for the country; to the global scientific work—work between UK scientists he deserves great credit for that. It will also have global and scientists based in the UK, German scientists at significance. I was in a meeting with the World Health BioNTech, the American scientists and the Belgians, Organisation this morning, which congratulated the who are producing and manufacturing this vaccine. The UK on being the first country to approve a vaccine, approach has been about people coming together right because it will encourage other countries around the around the world, and the UK has put more into the world to approve vaccines faster. global search for a vaccine in cash terms than any other country; despite our medium size as a nation, we have I want to ask the Health Secretary about something been the most generous, and I am really proud of that. different, which is the plight of people with learning disabilities. He will know that Public Health England says that they are two to four times more likely to die Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): It is great news about from covid. The news he has given this morning about the vaccine, and, on behalf of the residents of Ashfield people in care homes is tremendously welcome, but and Eastwood, let me say a big thanks to the Health people with learning disabilities often feel that they are Secretary,the scientists and the pharmaceutical companies. forgotten, particularly those in supported accommodation. The small businesses in Ashfield and Eastwood have Will he redouble his efforts to ensure that they, too, taken a massive financial hit during lockdown, despite are able to be reunited with their families ahead of doing their very best to be covid-secure, while supermarkets Christmas? have recorded record profits. I have received lots of complaints this week from customers and staff at local Matt Hancock: My right hon. Friend is gracious and supermarkets who say that the stores are overcrowded kind in what he says, and I welcome the WHO’s comments and not covid-safe; this is happening all over the country this morning. It has supported the UK approach and and is unfair to the small businesses, which have been rightly commended the MHRA, our independent regulator. hit the hardest. While the UK is being vaccinated, in the It has followed all the same steps that any high-quality run-up to Christmas traders in my constituency will do regulator would, should and will, but it has followed their very best to beat the virus. Will my right hon. them rapidly and sometimes in parallel, instead of one Friend therefore please remind the supermarket executives after the other. That is how we have got to the position that they have a duty to protect their staff, customers, of being the first country in the world to have a vaccine our NHS and the whole of the UK in order to beat the that is clinically authorised; it is because the MHRA virus and get our lives back? has done a brilliant job, working with Pfizer and BioNTech, to make sure that the same safety considerations are Matt Hancock: Yes, I am very happy from this Dispatch looked at but in a way that made the process as fast as is Box to remind the supermarkets of their responsibilities feasibly and safely possible. The WHO has backed that to follow covid-secure guidelines and ensure that they approach. Regulators around the world could take a are in place for their customers and staff. I pay tribute look at the MHRA, and we should all congratulate it. to my hon. Friend for standing up for the small businesses 339 Coronavirus Vaccine 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 340 of Ashfield. It is tough in Ashfield at the moment—I and to do everything they can to ensure that they do not get that. We have the restrictions in place only because pass on the disease, and then we can get these cases they are absolutely necessary.I know that he understands coming down. At the same time, we are going to inject a that. He is a strong voice in this Chamber for all the huge number of tests into Medway. We are working small businesses and residents of Ashfield. closely with Medway Council on this, and we will be using the armed forces to help make it happen, because Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): What a joy it was we have to get this virus under control in Medway. at 7 o’clock this morning to see this news being broken, and to see the Secretary of State as well. I put on the (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): I add record my thanks to the Secretary of State and all his my thanks to the scientists and to the volunteers who team for making this happen. put their own health at risk so that we could beat this Is the Secretary of State aware that there are still pandemic. My constituency has been under enhanced those who are unable to access their flu vaccine? What restrictions for many months now. The community has steps have been taken to ensure that the flu vaccine worked with the councils and others, and we have roll-out is completed before the corona programme finally had a 41% drop in infections in the past week, begins? What discussions has the Secretary of State had but we need to go further to get out of the restrictions. with the Northern Ireland Assembly on providing vaccines Part of that is mass testing. Can the Minister clarify my and, more importantly, on the roll-out for our vulnerable understanding that councils get £14 per head for mass and our frontline key workers? testing but do not get those boots on the ground from the Army—they get logistical advice and support, not Matt Hancock: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman physical help? We cannot do mass testing on the for his kind words. It has been a big team effort. I echo cheap, so will the Minister confirm that he will give the his thanks to the whole team. resources to councils? Will mass testing roll out before We have a further tranche of flu vaccines ready to go; February 2021? that is just about to be rolled out. Making sure that flu vaccines are available right across the UK is very important. Matt Hancock: Oh yes—mass testing is rolling out as It is an issue that Robin Swann—my opposite number we speak. My team have been working with Kirklees in the Northern Ireland Administration—and I have Council to make sure that the council’s enthusiasm for worked on extensively.He is incredibly diligent in ensuring mass testing is matched by the resources that come its that we get the flu vaccines rolled out to Northern way in terms of the tests themselves, the financial Ireland. There is an interaction between the massive flu support—£14 per test, as the hon. Lady says—and the vaccine roll-out programme, which the NHS does every logistical support from the armed forces. Kirklees’s year but which this year is bigger than ever, and at the plans are very advanced, I pay tribute to its local same time having to do a covid vaccine roll-out. We leadership and look forward to working with them to have taken that into account in the plans. In fact, before make it happen. the announcement at 6.30 this morning, I was talking to Robin Swann on the phone,which shows how hard-working Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): he is. Order. I want to get everybody in but we are getting a little behind schedule, so I ask for succinct questions. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I thank the Secretary of State for all his hard work and Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con): congratulate him, the Government and all the scientists I congratulate the Secretary of State and our Government on the approval of the vaccine. The Secretary of State on their brilliant work to make sure that we were the will know that Medway and neighbouring Swale, both first country in the world to have a vaccine approved. of which are served by Medway Maritime Hospital in my constituency, are currently recording the first and It would be worth the Secretary of State’s repeating the second highest covid rates in the country. Parts of the criteria and pecking order for the 800,000 doses. A Gillingham are recording rates as high as 753 per 100,000 colleague of mine, Councillor Bentley, always says that people. I thank the Secretary of State for listening to people need to hear something at least eight times representations from my local authority, myself and before they embed it, so will the Secretary of State take other local MPs on providing military assistance with this opportunity to repeat it? rapid testing in Medway. The Secretary of State also knows that Medway has some of the highest health Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely.We will follow a clinical inequalities in the country, and that health inequalities prioritisation according to need. That starts with those are linked to high covid rates. Will he join me in paying who are resident in care homes and their carers, the tribute to the fantastic work of the hospital and its staff over-80s and NHS staff, and then essentially comes in helping local residents? down the age range, including those who are clinically extremely vulnerable. Through the experience of the Matt Hancock: Yes, I will. There is a significant past 10 months, we know, sadly, who is most likely problem with the epidemic in Medway and north Kent, to die of covid, and they are the people we will try to get which I know my hon. Friend is concerned about. I pay to first. tribute to those working on the frontline at Medway Maritime Hospital, which is one of the most pressured Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ hospitals in the country at the moment, and also thank Co-op): This is hugely welcome news. As well as paying other parts of Kent and other trusts across Kent for tribute to the scientists, I pay tribute to all the teams in providing mutual aid. We have to get this virus under our local health boards who are preparing to deliver the control in Medway and across north Kent. The way to vaccine—particularly Fiona Kinghorn and her team at do that is for everybody to abide by the tier 3 restrictions Cardiff and Vale University Health Board—and the 341 Coronavirus Vaccine 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 342

[Stephen Doughty] Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con): May I place on record my thanks to Kate Bingham and the vaccines armed forces who have been involved in the process. taskforce, as well as all the Government Departments They have done an absolutely incredible job over the that have played their part in this welcome announcement, past few weeks to be ready for delivery. particularly the part played by my right hon. Friend? The Secretary of State said, crucially, that this is a Does he agree that as community testing and vaccines UK-wide effort; will he give a cast-iron guarantee that are rolled out throughout the winter and into the spring, not only this tranche of vaccines but future tranches the need even for localised restrictions will gradually be will be available on a completely equitable basis throughout reduced and that life can begin to return to something the United Kingdom, so that we can bear down on this closer to normality for my constituents? virus in every part of our country? Matt Hancock: Yes. I have good news for the people Matt Hancock: Yes, I can give that assurance. I join of Workington and the whole country, which is that the hon. Gentleman in thanking the volunteers, whom I suppressing the virus using these restrictions until a should have thanked in response to an earlier question, vaccine came along has been the strategy all along, and and also thank in advance everybody in the NHS who is we can just start to see the light at the end of the tunnel going to be involved in this roll-out. It is going to be a getting much brighter because we know we now have a mammoth effort—people are going to be working really vaccine. hard this winter, when people already work hard during winter in the NHS—and I am sure that the whole Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): I also welcome this House is very grateful to them. news and thank all the scientists involved in this great breakthrough. When it is my turn to have the vaccine, I Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): I join the Secretary will have absolutely no hesitation in doing so. When it of State in thanking the scientists who were involved in comes to turns, can the Secretary of State confirm that this major breakthrough for their brilliance and hard community workers—care workers who work in the work, and I join my right hon. Friend the Member for community going from home to home—will be part of South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt) in paying a personal the first assessment of clinical need? Then, after clinical tribute to the Secretary of State, who has been tenacious, need, will educational need be a factor in keeping our positive and energetic right throughout this. We are the schools open? A school in Southfields has been closed first in the world and a lot of that is down to him. for the last two weeks for lack of teachers being able to We need to keep the virus suppressed during the teach, so as a next phase, will educational need be a months ahead. One of the problems with test and trace consideration for the roll-out of the vaccine? is that quite often people do not disclose all their contacts because they do not want them to have to Matt Hancock: Once we have got through the clinical isolate for two weeks. Sir John Bell, whom I know the priority, of course there is a debate to be had about the Secretary of State admires as much as I do, suggests order of priority after that. Between now and then, if that if we subject people who are isolated to two tests we can get the repeat testing of contacts up and running and they are both negative, they should be released. He and working across the board, I hope that that will thinks that will safely encourage people to share their be effective in ensuring that fewer teachers have to contacts and suppress the spread of the virus. The isolate because they are contacts as opposed to positive Secretary of State has moved heaven and earth on cases. vaccination; will he do this for test and release? Matt Hancock: It is a great day for science and a great Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con) [V]: I congratulate day to be Chair of the Science and Technology Committee, my right hon. Friend on securing this vaccine and on his I would have thought. I am grateful to my right hon. amazing success in preparing us for its speedy roll-out. Friend for what he said, which was very generous. This is indeed a good news day. The news that hospital On the point about repeat testing instead of isolation staff, care workers and patients will be among the first for contacts, that is something we are trialling right to receive it will be welcomed in my local hospital and now, and I hope we can make significant progress on it across our care sector. We are keen to make a start. in the weeks ahead. Meanwhile, as the vaccine rolls out to other groups, will my right hon. Friend consider introducing rapid targeted Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: Last testing at scale in Stockport and across Greater Manchester Tuesday,the Prime Minister reassured me that Government as we continue to drive down our covid rates and work guidance would stop non-essential travel out of areas in together to beat the virus? tiers 2 or 3 into less-infected areas. However, in fact the guidance says that Matt Hancock: Yes, I will. Let us work together and “if you live in a tier 2 area, you must continue to follow tier 2 rules make that happen, with Stockport Council as well, and when you travel to a tier 1 area.” try to get those rates right down even further than they That means that someone can travel from higher-infection already are. areas to lower-infection areas, including to Wales. Will the Secretary of State update the guidance to comply Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green) [V]: I with the Prime Minister’s advice and stop non-essential echo the congratulations to all involved with the good travel from higher-infected to lower-infected areas ahead news about this vaccination. Last week, I asked the of the vaccine? Secretary of State to “publish the modelling his Department holds on the effect of the Matt Hancock: The guidance is precisely as set out relaxation of covid-19 restrictions over Christmas on covid-19 on gov.uk. transmission rates”. 343 Coronavirus Vaccine 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 344

Yesterday I was told that it was “not possible to answer” Matt Hancock: Yes, of course. GPs, pharmacists, and that question yet. That seems quite extraordinary. Has hospital hubs and vaccination centres are the three the Secretary of State been given an estimate of how routes to getting a vaccine. We will do it through the many additional deaths are likely to be caused by the primary care networks, which are groups of GPs, and loosening of restrictions over Christmas? If he knows we will ensure that it is equitable right across the country. the answer, I ask him to tell us now. If he does not know It is so important—not only between England and the the answer, why would he make such a major decision devolved nations, but within England—to make the without any idea of the number of deaths that could roll-out fair right across the land. result? Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con): Today’s Matt Hancock: We have to make judgments based on vaccination announcement certainly is extremely good what is right, balancing the different considerations we news. My right hon. Friend has already outlined that have to take into account, including the yearning that there will be equitable provision of the vaccine across many people have to come together at Christmas, and the United Kingdom. Will he do the same for community trying to find a balanced way through. We did that by mass testing, and will he outline the logistics involved in working with the devolved authorities, and I am glad getting the vaccines and the community mass testing that we came to a UK-wide approach to Christmas, kits to Wales? taking into account all the considerations that were necessary. Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend, as a GP, understands this subject more than most. We are working with the Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): May I add my Welsh Administration to try to get community testing voice of congratulation to my right hon. Friend and to throughout Wales. We are working in Merthyr Tydfil the scientists, the pharmaceutical companies and everybody right now to get the case rates down there. I am very involved in today’s good news on securing that vaccine? happy to work with him, the Welsh Administration and However, he will know of my deep reservations on the local councils to ensure that we get the case rates down severity of the restrictions being placed on my constituents wherever we can. through the new tier system. I am grateful for the time he took to discuss this with me yesterday. A big part of Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) my reluctant decision to vote with the Government last [V]: As we await the welcome roll-out of a vaccine, test night was the promise of more granularity when it and trace remains vital. In Scotland, over 90% of cases comes to the review on 16 December. Can he therefore and contacts have been reached, whereas England, with confirm that, if the numbers continue to come down, its reliance on Serco, has seen barely 60% of contacts the Buckingham constituency can be considered for reached—far lower than is needed to meaningfully limit tier 1 before Christmas? the spread of covid. Will the Secretary of State advise us what clauses are in the contracts regarding this Matt Hancock: I enjoyed the conversations that I had failure to deliver, and what is he going to do about it? with my hon. Friend on the approach to the Division Lobby. I can confirm that the answer to his question is Matt Hancock: I gently advise the hon. Member and yes. other Scottish National party Members not to try to make this comparison. I looked into this matter in some Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): I also detail when somebody else raised it. It turns out that the congratulate the scientific community on their achievements figures are only comparable if one strips out finding today. But will the Secretary of State look with precision contacts in places where it is easy to get the contacts, at the York model of delivering contact tracing? It has such as care homes, because everybody who lives in been a phenomenal story. Precision of contact tracing them can easily be accounted for. Comparing apples interviews has reduced the rate right down. They need and pears like this is not sensible and it is not right. the information on day one, not after 48 hours, which is Trying to drive a wedge between the public and private being held back, but they also need to ensure that they element of the system’s provision—which, by the way, get payment and support for people isolating. It works, Scotland also has—is a mistake. so will the Secretary of State now follow that model? Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con): I, too, thank Matt Hancock: We will not only follow the model; we everyone involved in today’s good news from North will promote it. The link between the local authority Devon. My right hon. Friend will know that the Nightingale and the national system in York has indeed had the in Exeter has now opened, but he will also know that we effect that the hon. Member rightly describes, and the are seeing a large number of NHS staff absences across teamwork between the two has meant that the figures in Devon. Can he assure me that the Government are York—I was looking at them this morning—are coming doing everything they can to keep staff safe, and to right down. I pay tribute to everybody in York. It is an ensure that we have enough staff to keep all hospitals in example of the national and local systems working Devon running as they should? together. We have to get the case rates right down all the way across North Yorkshire—indeed, everywhere in Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend is right to raise this Yorkshire—and I am sure that we can. important issue. I am glad to say that we have more staff working in the NHS in Devon over the last year and we Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): Barnsley have increased the number of nurses nationally by over has fewer GPs than areas down south, so will the 14,000, but there are also those absent because of covid. Secretary of State explain his plan to ensure that places I hope that regular testing will help to bring that number such as my constituency are not left behind in the down; and then, of course, there is the vaccine, which I roll-out of the vaccine? hope will solve this problem once and for all. 345 Coronavirus Vaccine 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 346

Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): The Secretary of that our two universities are highly regarded. Quite a State will know that there was much disappointment in number of constituents have contacted me regarding Devon that we were put in tier 2, although our rates are the potential increase in cases when students return in only 80 per 100,000 and coming down. Can he spell out January. What steps is he taking to support universities exactly what has to happen in Devon over the next two with this and what further steps can we take to support weeks for us to move into tier 1? If the phenomenal students who have to isolate as, often, they are far away success of the York modelling, which virtually eradicated from loved ones who can support them with shopping covid in York, is for the reasons that he suggests, why is and so on and, as a Government we must do all we can that not being done elsewhere? to ensure that education continues as normal?

Matt Hancock: We are very happy to work with Matt Hancock: Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely Devon County Council if it wants to come forward for right. Just as when students go home for Christmas, we that sort of model. We are constantly learning from are able to use the massive testing capacity that we have around the country. The local-national partnerships built up to ensure that they do so safely, so we propose often bring lessons, because people have chosen to do to use testing to allow students to return safely. It is things slightly differently in a local area, and we can all rather like the previous answer I just gave about being learn from that. As for Devon coming into tier 1, Devon able to use testing instead of isolation in schools. I say does have lower rates than many places, but it is not the gently to the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins) lowest area in tier 2, as that honour belongs to my own who, as he sat down, muttered about this: it is far better county of Suffolk. There are elevated numbers of cases to work together, and it is only because of the massive in some parts of Devon. What I urge everyone in Devon testing capacity that has been built up through the to do to get into tier 1 is to abide by the tier 2 rules and, actions of this Government that this is possible. We more than that, to take personal responsibility to do all have the biggest testing capacity in Europe and we can they can to reduce the spread of the virus. use it for keeping people safe in schools and for allowing people to go safely to and from universities. This is Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): I exactly the sort of empowerment that we now have as a say a big well done to everybody involved with this result of the huge testing programme that we have built. triumph. I share the Secretary of State’s concern over vaccine hesitancy, and he is right to say that everyone in Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): Last week we celebrated this House has a duty to try to dispel it. Does he agree Carers Rights Day, and today they are not included on that, had this House not taken the decision on 16 October the priority list issued by the Joint Committee on to empower the nimble MHRA and leave regulation Vaccination and Immunisation. They do a huge job in instead to the European Medicines Agency until looking after some of our most vulnerable people. Will 31 December, he would not be in this happy position the Health Secretary look again at that decision? today? Matt Hancock: I am very happy to ensure that the Matt Hancock: Yes, I am very glad that we changed JCVI takes all the appropriate considerations into account. the law to allow the MHRA to make this authorisation However, it is not my decision to look at again. My on UK terms. This House voted unanimously to do decision is that we should follow the clinical advice. I that—well, we did not even have a vote as it went think we should respect the JCVI, which is hugely through without one. I am really glad that we were able expert in the clinical advice it gives. to do that. I want to thank my right hon. Friend for his support and encouragement throughout this period. It has been a very, very long year as Health Secretary and Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): It is fantastic I really appreciate his support. news about the vaccine, but we cannot be complacent. The Kirklees director of public health briefed me and Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): The Health other local MPs last night that Kirklees needs to be in Secretary spoke about learning lessons and continuing tier 3 right now. We were in the top five councils for to improve the system. My partner’s daughter is currently covid cases, but good local action, combined with the self-isolating because someone in her class at school has national lockdown, has helped to reduce cases by 41%. Can got coronavirus. She comes home and lives with her the Health Secretary confirm that he will use localised sister who is still expected to go to school. Surely a data at the first review of the tiers on 16 December so world-class testing system would be testing everyone in that, if we continue that progress, we might be able to the bubble of those who had been sent home so that come out of tier 3? In the meantime, will he speak again immediate family could be identified as having the virus to the Chancellor to see what extra financial support we or not, and could take appropriate action. Is there any can give to our pubs, restaurants and cafés at this more that can be done to improve this so that people challenging time? such as my partner and many other parents at Holymoorside school will be able to take the necessary Matt Hancock: Yes. Of course, the Prime Minister steps? announced extra funding for wet pubs yesterday. I am very happy to have a further discussion on that matter, Matt Hancock: Yes, we are piloting exactly that idea but I also pay tribute to Kirklees, the people who live in in, I think, eight schools right now and I hope to be able Kirklees and my hon. Friend’s constituents, because it to roll it out once we have learned from those pilots. has been tough and it has been a long time. These measures have been in place for longer than almost Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con) [V]: My right hon. anywhere else in the country, and the rates are now Friend will be aware that Lincoln has a high student really coming down. Everybody should be very grateful population, something of which I am very proud, and for that. 347 Coronavirus Vaccine 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 348

Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The Secretary Matt Hancock: Yes, I absolutely will. Our goal and of State talks a lot about partnership at local level. Two our aim, and the commitment and agreement between weeks ago, his Department contacted the local public all four nations of the United Kingdom, is that we will health directors and asked them to draw up plans for all start vaccination at the same time, fairly, across the care home testing. Last week, his Department sent out four nations. That will happen early next week. When a letter directly to care homes, bypassing those local the announcement was made at 7 am, the one remaining directors of public health, to introduce testing in those regulatory hurdle was the batch testing, and that has care homes. Why was the approach changed? How will now been completed, so we are on track to deliver on the data from that testing in local care homes be fed that commitment, which will be delivered through the through to local directors of public health to do local NHS in all four corners of our land. We are working tracing? closely together. I spoke to my opposite number in Scotland early this morning to make sure that we are as Matt Hancock: It is very important that tracing happens, co-ordinated as possible. This UK-purchased vaccine and the data, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, is fed being delivered by NHS Scotland is a really good example through to councils where that data agreement has been of the power of this country when we all work together. put in place. The best approach is for councils and the national system to work well together. Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con) [V]: The first country in the world to have a vaccine, and a Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): world-class testing programme—what a phenomenal Will the Health Secretary and his colleagues accept my achievement. I thank my right hon. Friend and all the congratulations on making sure the UK is one of the scientists and clinicians who have made today a reality. I first countries in the world to have a deployable vaccine? am pleased that before Christmas we should have vaccine Does he agree that businesses and their employees in centres established in Oakham and in Melton Mowbray the UK pharmaceutical sector,which invests over £4 billion in my constituency. Will he please join me in extending a year of private risk capital, are heroes every bit as his thanks to my local councils, our clinicians and much as our wonderful NHS employees on the frontline? residents for their enormously hard work to get ready to bring this vaccine to my communities? Matt Hancock: Absolutely, and my hon. Friend gives the lie to this idea that we should somehow split public Matt Hancock: Yes, I absolutely will. I pay tribute to and private. I want to pay tribute, on behalf of all those their work on preparing for the vaccine roll-out, and in the House who believe in private enterprise,to everybody: also their work in keeping the virus under control, the major global pharmaceutical companies such as which is such an important task, is so difficult, and has Pfizer and AstraZeneca, the small entrepreneurial start-ups consumed so much effort this year, yet there is still more such as BioNTech and all those who have come to the work to be done over this winter to get the vaccine aid of the nation. If they do it and make a profit, if they rolled out. do that to save lives, that is fine by me. Ms (Wallasey) (Lab): Two injections per person for everyone in the country is going to take Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Advent always starts an awful long time. The Prime Minister was hoping that with the prospect of good news, so this is a really good it would be done by Easter. Does the Health Secretary Advent. [Interruption.] Says the former vicar. Yes, quite. share that timetable or will he publish another one? Is Can I add one element to this issue of the prioritisation he planning on making this vaccine available again next of vaccination? Covid has savagely exposed the health year, since we do not know how long immunity lasts, inequalities across the whole country. The poorest and covid is likely to be endemic and with us for some communities have suffered most, and the poorest time to come? communities often have the fewest health services and the least additional capacity to be able to deliver vaccination. Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady asks two incredibly As part of the mix, can we make sure that equality, real important questions, the first of which the hon. Member equity, across the whole country means that the poorest for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) asked and I communities may need additional support? did not answer, for which I apologise. The speed at which we can continue this roll-out will be determined Matt Hancock: Yes. The hon. Gentleman raises a by the speed at which Pfizer can manufacture and point that is important for the vaccination programme whether the AstraZeneca Oxford vaccine, of which we but also important thereafter, because if levelling up have 100 million doses on order, is approved by the means anything, it means trying to level up health and MHRA. I am afraid that I cannot answer the hon. make sure that the health inequalities of which he Lady’s question on the timetable, or indeed the hon. speaks are addressed. Gentleman’s, because it is dependent on the approval of AstraZeneca and the manufacturing process of the Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP) [V]: Pfizer vaccine. Everyone involved in delivering this great news is to be On the hon. Lady’s second question, I have completely congratulated, including the Secretary of State. The forgotten what it was. [HON.MEMBERS: “Next year.”] First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has said that provided Next year,yes, and whether this vaccine is only short-term. that we receive the first doses of the vaccine as soon as One of the reasons we have 357 million doses from we are expecting them in Scotland, we can start vaccinating seven different vaccines is to be able to vaccinate with people on Tuesday next week. Will the Secretary of further doses if that is needed in due course, whether State join me in applauding all at NHS Scotland who that is through re-procurement of one of the existing are going to make this possible? vaccines or by switching to a different vaccine if that is 349 Coronavirus Vaccine 2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronavirus Vaccine 350

[Matt Hancock] and giving public health teams the resources they need both to continue the fight against covid-19 and for the clinically appropriate. That is absolutely part of the longer term. Will the Secretary of State pay heed to that potential future plans that we have under consideration, message, and will he call on the Chancellor to give local but it is too early to know the answer to that question public health teams the funding they need? as well. Matt Hancock: We are increasing the public health Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): It is grant next year. Also, the public health grant is but one wonderful news on the vaccine—many congratulations part of the massive overall investment in public health to all involved, including the Secretary of State. He will that we have made this year and will, of course, have to concede that it will be some months before restrictions continue to make next year as we get the virus under can be lifted. North Yorkshire is the largest county in control. England by miles—it takes three hours to drive from one side of it to the other—and the variation in infection Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con): The news this morning rates is considerable across the region. Will he consider, about the vaccines gives my constituents in Hyndburn when he moves tiers around in two weeks’ time, moving and Haslingden light at the end of a very dark tunnel. one of the seven districts of North Yorkshire with low The announcement on care homes is genuinely brilliant infection rates into tier 1? news and something I have pushed for, as the Secretary of State will know, both in and out of this Chamber. As has been mentioned, mass testing is also a vital part in Matt Hancock: As the Prime Minister said yesterday, our fight against coronavirus. Will the Secretary of we do look at the human geography and how the State confirm when it will be rolled out in tier 3 areas epidemiology shows the spread of the virus is occurring such as Hyndburn and Haslingden, so we can continue across the country, especially, but not limited to, the big to get our rate down and get our brilliant hospitality rural counties. We have to be slightly careful in North sector up again? Yorkshire. One of the challenged areas is Scarborough, where the case rates are elevated. I appreciate that that Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend is right. The candle is a long way from my hon. Friend’s patch. We do look of hope is burning brighter today. On the mass testing at it at that granular level and make decisions on that she is so enthusiastic about, I can tell her that this basis, but the decision to put the whole of North morning when I asked my officials to ensure that the Yorkshire into tier 2 was taken looking at each part of community testing programme that is being developed North Yorkshire on its merits. for Hyndburn is advanced as quickly as possible, they told me that they had been told of the need for it by so (Wirral West) (Lab) [V]: Dr de many people and that so many people had been lobbied Gruchy, the president of the Association of Directors by her, that it was already in hand. I suppose that that of Public Health, has said: goes to show just how vociferous my hon. Friend is in “it is completely incomprehensible that the Government is not fighting for the people of Hyndburn. increasing the public health grant” Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): to local authorities next year. She spoke of the importance Order. We will have a three-minute suspension. of Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, “learning the lessons of how existing health inequalities have driven and exacerbated the impact of COVID-19”, 4 June). as well as addressing 2.48 pm “the socio-economic determinants of health” Sitting suspended. 351 2 DECEMBER 2020 Automated External Defibrillators 352 (Public Access) Automated External Defibrillators When a defibrillator is available, it can mean the (Public Access) difference between life and death. A member of my office staff is a volunteer with St John Ambulance and Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order assisted at an incident where a young boy had collapsed No. 23) outside a school. He had no heartbeat. The school had a defibrillator on site, and she assisted a trained staff 2.51 pm member as this child, lying on the cold ground in his Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I beg to move, school uniform, was revived on the third cycle by a That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the installation combination of a defibrillator and CPR, so that when of automated external defibrillators in public buildings, sporting paramedics arrived they were met with a living child facilities, schools, higher education and other education and instead of a scene of unspeakable heartbreak. I am skills facilities, and facilities that provide care to vulnerable people; happy to say that that child recovered and eventually and to make associated provision about training and signage. returned to school, but we can imagine how it must have This is the third attempt to bring in a Bill of this been for his daddy, who was there, trying to reassure his nature, following two previous efforts by the hon. Member wife over the phone. The heart must be restarted within for Lewes (Maria Caulfield). May I put on the record three minutes, and how different it could have been if my thanks to her for her efforts and commitment? I was no defibrillator had been available. happy to co-sponsor her Bill in 2018, which fell due to Parliament being dissolved. I stand today once more to I remember well when a man collapsed in my inform the House that the push for mandatory installation constituency while watching a game of football in the of these life-saving devices in our public buildings must grounds of Portavogie football club. He had gone into be welcomed. cardiac arrest when a defibrillator was brought from the club house, just a few metres away, and applied to him. As the Member for Strangford in Northern Ireland, I On the fourth cycle he began to breathe. That man is felt that it was right that I took this opportunity to alive today because a defibrillator was at his side in present this Bill because the defibrillator, of course, was seconds, and that is so important. That small machine invented by Professor Frank Pantridge, who was born can restore life, and its benefit is that anyone can use in Hillsborough in the constituency of my right hon. one, because once they have opened it, audio instructions Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey tell them exactly what to do. The Bill’s purpose is to M. Donaldson). Professor Pantridge pioneered the increase rates of survival from cardiac arrest by making automated external defibrillator,or the portable defibrillator, public access to a defibrillator as quick as possible. at the Royal Victoria Hospital in Belfast, in collaboration Seconds count when the heart stops beating. with the British Heart Foundation. Behind this Bill lie stories of tragedy and triumph. There are many reasons why a heart suddenly stops Those stories must be shared, because they have happened working, and it could happen to anyone, even the very across the whole community. In December 2019, I met young. Sudden cardiac death kills 12 people aged 35 Mark King, whose son Oliver died in March 2011 from and under each week across Northern Ireland and the a cardiac arrest when taking part in a swimming race. United Kingdom. Many of the young people who die Oliver was 12 years old. He was an outstanding young are involved in physical activities when it happens. athlete and a much-loved little boy, who unfortunately Although such incidents are indiscriminate, the availability had a hidden heart condition. Had a defibrillator been of defibrillators should not be.Of the 30,000 out-of-hospital quickly available, his chances of survival would have cardiac arrests across Northern Ireland and the United been so much greater, and it is possible that he would Kingdom each year, the overall survival rate is a shocking have been here to celebrate his 21st birthday back in one in 10. It is estimated that public access to defibrillators January this year. is used in fewer than 5% of those incidents. It is because a defibrillator was not available, because We should all agree that those are sad statistics, but it is still not mandatory for any building to have one, one even sadder statistic also need mentioning. The that Oliver’s death inspired his daddy, Mark King, to set British Heart Foundation has reported—I say this gently— up the Oliver King Foundation, which has worked since that women are less likely to be given CPR or defibrillation 2012 to save as many lives as possible by raising awareness by bystanders than men, if they suffer an out-of-hospital of the importance of public access defibrillators. To cardiac arrest in a public place. Some 68% of women date, the foundation has placed 4,500 AEDs in schools will receive assistance compared with 77% of men, and organisations across the United Kingdom and trained which means that women are less likely to survive, even 70,000 staff in AED awareness, and more than 47 lives if a defibrillator is readily available. Bystanders are have been saved by the defibrillators that the foundation afraid that they might be inappropriately touching a has placed. That has been achieved through effort born lady, and one aim of the Bill is to educate and remind us from heartbreak. I say to the Government that it is time all that education and awareness across our communities we removed that burden from the foundation’s shoulders is urgently needed. Nobody should die for lack of and required mandatory installation of AEDs as Oliver CPR or defibrillation because people are afraid to King’s legacy. touch them. Members may not be aware that 270 children die The timing of this Bill coincides with the intention to across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern include first aid and CPR in the national school curriculum Ireland each year from hidden heart conditions. Many in England this year, 2020. Norway has been teaching have died in school settings and sports fields. Those CPR in schools for many years, and bystander CPR has places are where defibrillators need to be, and they need caused its survival rates to be as high as 25%, compared to be there not simply because someone has fundraised with less than 10% in the United Kingdom. St John in their community, but because they are required to be Ambulance runs Badgers and Cadets schemes for those there. That is the reason for this Bill. aged seven to 19. Those schemes teach CPR and the use 353 Automated External Defibrillators 2 DECEMBER 2020 Automated External Defibrillators 354 (Public Access) (Public Access) [Jim Shannon] eyes the miraculous revival of a human life by a defibrillator. I would ask how many hon. Members have witnessed a of defibrillators, so that children and young people person collapse suddenly and stop breathing. Some learn how to save lives. It makes perfect sense for that have, and many of us probably have not, but that does training also to take place in our schools. We in the not matter. devolved nations should get involved with that idea, Most of us will remember the footage of former and call on our education Ministers seriously to consider Bolton Wanderers player Fabrice Muamba, who collapsed making those life-saving skills part of our children’s from cardiac arrest on the pitch, during a live broadcast everyday learning in school. of the match. His heart stopped beating for 78 minutes, This Bill needs to be robust and to include a requirement but his chances of survival were increased from the start on councils to comply. If we can afford to build new because CPR and a defibrillator were applied during buildings and facilities, we can afford a few extra hundred those crucial first few minutes. Such a scene is deeply pounds on installing automated external defibrillators. distressing to witness, but nothing is more distressing That should be guided by having an AED per building than the needless loss of life. on a facility of 7,500 square metres of floor space, and a I call on Members to think about that wee boy Oliver register must be established to record the location of an King. He was known as “Mr Special” by his parents AED, with a programme of maintenance and annual and all who knew him. He should have turned 21 this testing. I understand that there are now more AEDs year. Also think about my constituent who will celebrate installed in public places today than there were when another Christmas this month with his loved ones. The young Oliver King lost his life. That is to be acknowledged difference in those stories is one thing: a defibrillator—the and welcomed, but we must go a lot further. We cannot absence of one and the availability of one. leave the availability of such a life-saving device to the We can no longer leave it to the public to hold raffles result of a random decision or a mayoral recommendation. or coffee mornings. We must consider it our duty as AEDs are almost always obtained through the efforts legislators to require AEDs to be present in public of community fundraising. Indeed, one was recently buildings, sporting facilities, places of education and installed near my office in Newtownards by the staff of wherever someone, be they young or elderly, might fall Wardens, who raised the money themselves. The hon. down and never get up again. The Bill will ensure that if Member for Sedgefield (Paul Howell), who is unable to they do, they will have every chance of getting up again. be here today, told me about the incredible commitment I urge Members to support the Bill. by one of his constituents, Mr David Sutton-Lloyd, Question put and agreed to. who made it his mission to see publicly accessible AEDs installed across the length and breadth of Newton Ordered, Aycliffe. Those efforts are to be praised, but why must it That Jim Shannon, John Howell, Paul Girvan, David remain incumbent on shop staff and dedicated individuals Linden, Carla Lockhart, , Caroline Nokes, such as Mr Sutton-Lloyd to purchase AEDs for the Chris Green, Mrs Pauline Latham, Alison Thewliss, safety of others? They do not have to purchase fire Mr Peter Bone and Sir Jeffrey Donaldson present the Bill. extinguishers or smoke alarms that public buildings are Jim Shannon accordingly presented the Bill. required by law to have in place. Why should we, as Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on legislators in this House, continue to leave the availability Friday 5 February 2021, and to be printed (Bill 222). of defibrillators as arbitrary when we have the figures for how many people die from out-of-hospital cardiac Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I arrest each week and when, tragically, many of them are must now announce the result of today’sdeferred Division children? on the draft Veterinary Medicines and Residues It is easy to listen to the statistics being read out and, (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. The Ayes sometimes, we can become cold to them, but then be were 362 and the Noes were 202, so the Ayes have it. shocked and moved by them, but nothing drives home [The Division list is published at the end of today’s the message more effectively than seeing with one’s own debates.] 355 2 DECEMBER 2020 Agriculture 356

Agriculture To return to the regulations, this new traceability system, which will be available for sheep in the future, will allow us better to manage disease, which is what we 3.3 pm are talking about. We are not talking about deal or no The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for deal at the moment; we are talking about management Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis): of disease in lambs, Welsh or otherwise. The system should I beg to move, also enable us to protect human health, giving confidence That the draft Agriculture and Horticulture Development to trading partners—with whom we hope we will be able Board (Amendment) Order 2020, which was laid before this to trade—and enable better use of data to manage on-farm House on 12 November, be approved. productivity and efficiency. I turn to the Direct Payments to Farmers (England) Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): (Amendment) Regulations 2020. The legislation governing With this we will take the following motions: direct payment schemes contains financial ceilings that That the draft Direct Payments to Farmers (England) are used to calculate direct payments to farmers. However, (Amendment) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this the legislation only includes financial ceilings up to and House on 12 November, be approved. including the 2020 claim year. These regulations specify That the draft World Trade Organisation Agreement on Agriculture how the Secretary of State will set financial ceilings for (Domestic Support) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 12 November, be approved. England beyond the end of this year. These regulations also make minor changes to ensure that the schemes Victoria Prentis: These are the first regulations produced continue to work effectively in England beyond 2020. using the powers under the new Agriculture Act 2020. That includes replacing dates specific to the 2020 scheme They lay the groundwork for our new agricultural policy. year with equivalent dates that are not year-specific. Turning to the first of the statutory instruments, the The regulations also remove rules that are not relevant draft regulations will assign additional functions to the to England, such as those relating to voluntary coupled Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board. They support. will enable the AHDB to collect, manage and make No substantive policy changes are made by these availableinformationregardingtheidentification,movement regulations. They ensure the continuity of direct payments and health of animals, and to allocate unique identification in England beyond the end of this year and are largely codes as a means of identifying animals. That information technical. Farmers will see no change on the ground as will feed into a new livestock information service. a result of them. The Government remain committed to Of the 165,000 livestock farmers today, nearly 60,000 beginning to phase out direct payments from 2021 as keep more than one species. Therefore, those farmers part of their ambitious agricultural reforms in England. need to engage with different services and systems. The We will bring forward separate legislation to make livestock information service replaces separate species- those changes.Direct payment schemes fall within devolved specific systems with a single portal for keepers to meet competence. The devolved Administrations plan to make their reporting responsibilities. It should be more cost- their own legislation in relation to direct payment schemes effective and easier to use, and it will allow faster and in their own territories. more accurate livestock traceability. I turn to the World Trade Organisation Agreement The AHDB will also run a unique number identification on Agriculture (Domestic Support) Regulations 2020. service on behalf of England and Wales controlling the The World Trade Organisation’s agreement on agriculture issuing of official individual identification numbers to divides domestic support into green, blue or amber animals. The new system will allow for value-added depending on the support’s potential to distort trade. services where submitted data can be used to generate Under the agreement, each country must limit the amount information in wider areas such as livestock productivity of trade-distorting amber box domestic support given and disease management. to agricultural producers. The UK’s overall amber box spend limit remains unchanged after EU exit. These Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Since the Minister regulations specify the amount of amber box payments mentioned Wales, may I raise the issue of Welsh lamb? that may be given in each country of the UK. Those Sheep are already pregnant with next year’s flock, and limits have been set at a level that will not constrain we hope that lambs will be frolicking all over the hills in policy choices, meaning that there should be no impact the springtime, but the real worry for many Welsh on farmers. The regulations also outline the procedure farmers is that they will not be able to sell their product for classifying such schemes and permit the Secretary of in the rest of the European Union. What plans have the State to request information from the DAs where that is Government put in place to deal with the eventuality needed to enable the UK to satisfy its obligations under that 50% of the product that presently goes to the the agreement on agriculture. European Union cannot be sold? These statutory instruments implement provisions provided for by the Agriculture Act. In the case of Victoria Prentis: It is a delight to take an intervention direct payments, they provide important and necessary from the hon. Gentleman. It is not absolutely on point continuity for farmers. I urge Members to agree to these with this statutory instrument, but it is always a delight regulations, which I commend to the House. to talk about Welsh lamb. I am still very hopeful that we will get a zero-tariff deal with the European Union, which would be a good outcome for Welsh lamb. In the 3.9 pm event that we do not get such a deal, as I hope he knows, Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): It is a pleasure we worked up various schemes in our previous planning to be here and to speak to these statutory instruments, for a no-deal exit, and I am sure that, if needed, those Madam Deputy Speaker. Indeed, they are an eclectic can be got out and worked up once again. mix of instruments, and I say at the outset that we will 357 Agriculture 2 DECEMBER 2020 Agriculture 358

[Daniel Zeichner] from the newly passed Agriculture Act 2020. It makes provisions for better traceability. It was noted as an not be opposing them. May I say something positive instrument of interest by the Secondary Legislation about the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Scrutiny Committee, and the Minister has outlined Board? I know it is not always supported throughout many of the proposals, so I will not repeat all of that. the sector, but my experience has been very positive, The proposals set out by the AHDB for a new livestock and it does very valuable work. information service system are important. It will provide On livestock movement, we know how critical a a multi-species traceability system, and DEFRA tells us tracing system is. We need only look back to some of that it will enable the Department and the Animal and the awful experiences with foot and mouth back in 1967 Plant Health Agency to trace all livestock movements and 2001 and, indeed, to the lessons learned by 2007, and through a single, more efficient system, which would be we have only to think about bovine TB and, I fear, welcome, because livestock are currently identified through African swine fever, which is currently moving across three separate livestock traceability systems: one for Europe. There are worrying developments around avian cattle, one covering sheep and goats and one for pigs. flu, which is a different issue, and the Opposition will do The service was introduced over the past two decades as everything we can to work with the Government to various pieces of EU legislation came into force. As the tackle that. Minister said, the existing systems are species-specific, May I also make reference to my hon. Friend the so keepers with more than one species of livestock need Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is sitting to switch between databases. The existing systems are patiently? There was a suggestion from the Secretary of also designed to collect, rather than share data and, State as to what should be done in these circumstances, extraordinarily, are paper-based. which I think rather unhelpfully was a suggestion to switch I am told that the AHDB will also run a unique to beef. I suspect that will not satisfy my hon. Friend. number identification service on behalf of England and He may wish to intervene. Wales, which will control the issuing of official individual Chris Bryant: I am grateful to be enticed. Yes, the identification numbers to animals.The Scottish Government Secretary of State suggested to me that those affected and the Department of Agriculture, Environment and should all move over to beef. The truth, as far as I can Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland have noted that they see, is that first, that is difficult to achieve on most Welsh will pursue their own systems for issuing identification mountains and, secondly,it is not exactly an environmentally numbers to animals. The service will operate in England friendly direction of travel. More importantly, did my but because, as has been said, animals can and do move hon. Friend catch the intimation from the Minister that across borders, the instrument applies across the UK so if this produce is not going to be able to be sold, that AHDB may handle data on animal movements and because of tariffs within the European Union, basically traceability systems outside England where necessary to all that additional produce will just be burnt? allow a complete picture of animal traceability. Further collective work involving all four Administrations is Daniel Zeichner: This is possibly not the place to have aimed at agreeing a UK view of key data to support this debate, but my hon. Friend is right to raise it and traceability. the Minister will have the opportunity to respond later. As I said, AHDB has established a subsidiary company, Of course, we are seeing problems with wool, as well, so Livestock Information Ltd, to carry out the services on it is a troubled time for people. Obviously we hope that behalf of AHDB and DEFRA. We are told that the we end up without tariffs, because that will be a much estimated cost is £32 million over three years, and the better outcome. projected monetised net benefit using a 10-year appraisal method is conservatively placed at £30 million. AHDB Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Clearly the rules, says that improved traceability data will enable a range as the Minister set out, are specific to England, but the of other benefits, including reducing the impact of shadow Minister referred to the movement of cattle and endemic diseases, increasing our ability to act quickly sheep in the United Kingdom mainland. He will know, and proportionately in the event of an exotic disease as we do, that that movement of traffic is to and fro outbreak, and improving livestock business productivity. from Northern Ireland to the mainland. When it comes to the movement of any animals, does he think we need Some questions follow from that, however. Under the continuity with the payment scheme and the flexibility provisions of the instrument, each devolved Administration to be able to move cattle and sheep not only north and will have their own database. How will we be able to south from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland, trace animals as they move across borders? On the but from Northern Ireland to Scotland and to England implementation of the system, will there be an instant and Wales? switchover, or a transition period in which both old and new systems operate alongside one another? What is the Daniel Zeichner: The hon. Member tempts me further timeframe for getting the new traceability system up and further away from the instrument. I can assure him and running? I will be coming to some of those points, because it is Farmers currently pay a levy for the use of AHDB obviously key that we resolve these issues of movement services. In bringing the new traceability system under within the island of Ireland. They are complicated and the remit of AHDB, DEFRA says there are no plans pressing for many, many people. for a new levy to fund any of the services the regulations We are told that this instrument does not relate to bring in. “No plans” is a term that is regularly used, withdrawal from the European Union, which is a welcome often euphemistically. Can the Minister give a guarantee relief, I suspect, given the number of instruments we that there will not be a levy? It appears that Livestock have been discussing in recent weeks. Indeed, it comes Information Ltd will cost £32 million of taxpayer money 359 Agriculture 2 DECEMBER 2020 Agriculture 360 that is immediately handed to a subsidiary in which The high-risk approach to our farmers’ future security DEFRA has a minority stake. Will the Minister explain is, I am sorry to say, of a piece with the highly ideological why that is? approach that the Government have taken to farming Looking at the direct payments instrument, we have post Brexit. The Government still refuse to back British been here before. The draft regulations are laid under the farmers with a legal guarantee that they will not be new Agriculture Act 2020 and need to come into force undercut by cheaper, lower-standard food allowed in on 1 January 2021 to ensure that direct payment support through trade deals that, despite the claims, will still will be available for farmers in England for the 2021 claim lack proper parliamentary scrutiny. year. The Government have confirmed the continuation I will not go over familiar ground again, the Minister of direct payments for 2020 in the Direct Payments to will be glad to hear, but let me put some specific Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Act 2020, which we questions on this instrument. The draft regulations that discussed back in January, but as we heard earlier this she has come forward with today provide farmers with week, some of the payments will be phased out in direct payments for just 2021. Will regulations need to England under the new Agriculture Act from next year be laid every year for the seven years of the agricultural over the following seven years, beginning with a 5% to transition period to continue direct payments in their 25% cut in farmers’ income next year. current form prior to phasing out? When are the This statutory instrument has been noted as an Government going to come forward with regulations instrument of interest by the Secondary Legislation for phasing out direct payments? Scrutiny Committee.According to DEFRA, the instrument These provisions remove a number of elements of aims to maintain the status quo as far as possible for direct payments that have not been applied in England farmers next year. The instrument sets rules about the but have been elsewhere in the UK. These include the financial ceilings used to calculate farmers’direct payments, redistributive payment and voluntary coupled support giving the Secretary of State time to determine the schemes that have been used in Wales and Scotland. ceilings for the 2021 claim year before the start of that They also take out the active farmer provision and basic year, as the current financial ceilings extend only to the payment scheme agri-environment transfer. Will the 2020 claim year. It also removes from 2021 elements of Minister confirm that there is nothing here that will direct payments that have not previously been implemented restrict devolved Administrations from making their in England, some of which have been used in the rest of own choices? While we understand the concerns about the UK. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee the active farmer provision, we still believe that measures notes that separate legislation will be required for the are needed to ensure that money goes to farmers, not Government’splanned reforms to phase out direct payments just landholders. from 2021. This is a continuation of direct payments to farmers Back in January,when we discussed the Direct Payments for next year, which is welcome, but we know that the to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Act, Labour pressed Government are planning to cut direct payments for the Government on the need for a legislative mechanism next year. What support are they going to give farmers for direct payments to farmers to be continued beyond facing a 5% cut in their income next year? Has DEFRA 2020. We predicted that we would be back later in the undertaken an impact assessment on what direct payment year—and here we are, with the Government using the cuts would look like to farmers in different sectors and Agriculture Act as that mechanism to use this SI for 2021. farm sizes, and will they release that impact assessment? We welcome the shift from supporting land ownership to helping farmers restore land and improve our natural We know that different parts of the UK will now be environment, but farmers are rightly concerned about pursuing different payment support schemes for farmers, how they are going to survive during the transition the as agriculture is a devolved area. How will the Government Government propose. On Monday, it was revealed that ensure that we do not see market distortions emerging direct payments will start to be cut next year, and will be across the UK? Given its past performance failures, can cut by 50% by 2024, yet the new environmental land the Minister guarantee that the Rural Payments Agency management schemes will not fully up and running is competent to administer the many changes and parallel until 2024. What was once envisaged as a bridging systems emerging over the next few years? sustainable farming incentive payment will not be available In conclusion, let me turn to perhaps the most for farmers until 2022, and in the view of many, including complicated of the three SIs before us,on WTO compliance. Labour Members, there is still too little detail of the This instrument has been made under the Agriculture schemes to help farmers to plan for uncertain times Act but relates to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom ahead. Based on DEFRA’s own statistics, 75% of farming from the European Union. It introduces a legal framework enterprises are currently unprofitable without direct to ensure UK-wide compliance with WTO commitments payments. We fear that many farms will be left financially on the use of domestic support for agriculture.I understand unviable under the Government’s proposals. that this is a largely technical change following our A recent survey of landowners and farmers by the withdrawal, so this SI was not reported on by the Joint Country Landowners Association found high levels of Committee on Statutory Instruments. concern about the implementation of the new ELM While a member of the EU, UK interests at the WTO schemes, with 76% of respondents fearing that the were represented by the European Commission, which payments would not be sufficient and 57% thinking that was responsible for ensuring that the UK complied with administration would be poor.The Rural Payments Agency WTO agreements. That included the WTO agreement will be administering new payment schemes—we all on agriculture, which sets out a number of general rules know that it has had a troubled history, although it has and commitments that signatory nations must follow improved in recent times—and there remain real doubts on agricultural trade practices, including disciplines on about the capacity to deliver new systems alongside domestic support, market access and export subsidies. administering legacy payments. Following the UK’s withdrawal from the EU, the UK 361 Agriculture 2 DECEMBER 2020 Agriculture 362

[Daniel Zeichner] Front Benchers, who I expect thought they would get away with being the only speakers this afternoon. I am will now represent its own interests at the WTO, and the sorry about that, but I put in because I did not get the UK Government will be responsible for ensuring that chance to speak in the debates on the Agriculture Bill the UK complies with its obligations and commitments earlier this year. I hope the House and you will indulge as an independent WTO member.These include obligations me for a few minutes while I speak about Wiltshire relating to the classification and notification of domestic farmers and the role I think farming could play in the support and the UK’s commitment to reduce its aggregate UK after Brexit. measurement of support. I much enjoyed the Bill Committee, and especially As the Minister said, this instrument specifies the the erudition and good humour of the two Front Benchers. amount of amber box payments that may be given in My hon. Friend the Minister and I have something in each country of the United Kingdom—amber box common, which is a parent in the public eye—both with payments being those that have trade-distorting effects, some strong farming and food credentials, and both which are limited under the WTO agreement on agriculture. with some suspicions about what the Government are This instrument also outlines the procedure for classifying up to it when it comes to agriculture— such schemes and permits the Secretary of State to request information where this is needed to enable the Victoria Prentis indicated dissent. United Kingdom to satisfy its obligations. The explanatory memorandum says that it Danny Kruger: The Minister denies it. It is true to say that I do not think she had the pleasure of the experience “allows for each UK administration to design and implement of a convoy of tractors driving through Banbury in their own agricultural support schemes within an amber box spending envelope.” protest at the Agriculture Bill, with a huge placard on the front tractor saying, “Daddy knows best”, which is These provisions stem from part 6 of the Agriculture what I had in Marlborough, with a placard saying, Act, and they were criticised at the Committee stage by “Mummy knows best”. Of course, Mummy does know the devolved Administrations. There were concerns that, best; she just did not understand the question in that despite agriculture being a devolved area, the Act gave instance. I did of course disagree with those farmers on the Secretary of State the centralised power to decide the detail of the Agriculture Bill, but I did and do share how farm support payments everywhere in the UK will their concerns, and I want to try to summarise those be classified in relation to international trade rules, and today. There are basically two: there is a practical to set limits on how much can be paid out by each concern about farm incomes, and there is a strategic or Administration. At the Committee stage of the Agriculture philosophical concern about the place of farming in Bill, Labour sought to amend the Bill by requiring this country’s future. Ministers to consult with each devolved authority on a draft of the relevant regulations. This was rejected by Let me summarise the practical concern first. We are the Government, but the Minister committed to consult basically moving the subsidy—some billions of pounds— with the devolved Administrations on the making of from farming as it is traditionally understood, as the regulations under part 6. management of land for the production of food, to environmental stewardship. The overall budget might The Government have outlined in their explanatory be the same and individual farm incomes maybe guaranteed memorandum for this SI: for a few years, but this is a profound change in the “These regulations were drafted in consultation with policy business model of farming. I was very pleased to get officials from the devolved administrations, who were given the assurances on Monday from the Secretary of State in opportunity to comment at each drafting stage. It was possible to his statement that the switch is not intended to reduce accommodate the majority of their comments and suggested changes whilst recognising that UK Government’s position is that ensuring food production or to take land out of cultivation and compliance with international obligations remains a reserved issue.” put it to other uses. I believe him, and I am sure that is the intention. I fully support the overall mission of the I have to say that, from speaking to some of my Scottish reforms, which is to enable sustainable food production colleagues, I am not entirely convinced they completely in this country, but the design and details of the system agree with that characterisation of the discussion. So are essential to make sure that we do not inadvertently can the Minister explain what consultations have been make people, against their best instincts and against had with the devolved authorities on the content of the traditions of their own land, become unwilling these regulations, how the majority of their comments environmental stewards rather than food producers. and suggested changes were accommodated, and what suggestions, if any, were not accommodated? We all know the jokes about farmers being asked, “What do you farm?”and answering, “Subsidies, mostly.” In conclusion, these are indeed an eclectic group of I am all for subsidies, and I am all for stewardship and instruments, but they are all important to make sure for paying farmers to maintain the forests, the streams our farmers are paid, to ensure that we use the latest and the soil, but let us make sure they farm animals and technology to best effect to maintain the health of our crops. The details of the scheme are what matters here, livestock and to ensure that agricultural support systems and we need to get on with it. The time is tight for are WTO-compliant. We are not opposing them, but phasing out basic payments, and we still do not know there are questions I have posed, and I look forward to the full details of what will replace them. I appreciate hearing the Minister’s answers. and applaud the reason for this—the Government want to consult with farmers on the best system for them—but 3.26 pm I hope this can happen soon and finish quickly. Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con): Madam Deputy Speaker, Let me finish with the strategic question, which, in a I rise to discuss the second instrument about direct sense, underpins all the technical debate that we are payments, and I beg your forbearance and that of the having about subsidies. The Opposition spent much of 363 Agriculture 2 DECEMBER 2020 Agriculture 364 the debate on the Agriculture Bill talking about trade Before I do that, I predict that the Minister, as she deals. Although, in a sense, trade deals had nothing to often does, will cite the consent that she enjoys from do with that Bill, which was about support for and colleagues in the Scottish Government on these matters. regulation of British farms, I appreciate why they discussed I will expand a little on what the shadow Minister, the them. The fact is that a bad trade deal could undermine hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner), has said a good Agriculture Bill—and it was a good Agriculture —that there is sometimes a huge difference between Bill, especially once food production was recognised as consent and delight, or even between consent and something something worth including. remotely similar to what we would do if we had the I applaud the Government for the deal they did to legislative authority to do it. That is sometimes the keep the National Farmers Union and the Department space in which our Ministers in the devolved for International Trade happy by ensuring proper statutory Administrations find themselves. oversight of the trade deals to make sure that food The World Trade Organisation Agreement on Agriculture standards and farming interests are protected. We are (Domestic Support) Regulations 2020 set a limit of now in the process of negotiating those trade deals, and 12.67% of total UK amber box support for Scotland. here is where the philosophical difference arises; I fear This reliance on a percentage of the total UK quantum that there may be a philosophical difference between means that while Scotland remains within the UK, we DEFRA and DIT. must remain subject to the vagaries of the total UK It is right that the Departments have slightly different figure. It is not inconceivable that in a mixture of ill approaches. DIT is there to maximise trade for British winds and fair, high yields and low, we could see the companies so that they benefit from lucrative exports figure to which that 12.67% relates reduce at a UK and British consumers benefit from cheap imports. Let level—at a time when Scotland may need to increase the me take this opportunity to congratulate my old friends support to its growers and producers that is satisfactory Douglas Carswell and Dominic Johnson on their even at a conceptual level. In addition, the Secretary of appointments as non-executive directors of DIT this State holds the final say and authority to determine the week. They are great patriots with all the right instincts—so classification of support as blue, green or amber box much so that I see that DIT has been dubbed by some support. I am interested in better understanding the Conservatives “the Ministry of Sound”. I am pleased principles of consent and safeguards for fairness that about their appointments, but I am not sure that Douglas will uphold that authority justly. Carswell or Dominic Johnson has ever so much as It is fortuitous that the hon. Member for Devizes grown a tray of cress, let alone planted a carrot or had (Danny Kruger) is here. During the agricultural transition anything to do with actual farming. I wish all power to plan statement on 30 November, many Scottish MPs the Minister’s elbow in the ongoing oversight that she pressed the Secretary of State for assurances that state will exercise over her colleagues in the trade deals that aid principles in the United Kingdom Internal Market are being negotiated. Bill would not be used to prevent the Scottish Government We must not offshore our carbon emissions or animal from providing agricultural support in the way that they cruelty to other countries. We must not sell out our choose.No such assurances were provided, yet in answering farmers. We must make a moral and political decision a subsequent question during the same debate from the to rely more on British food. Partly this is about food hon. Gentleman, who was concerned that Scottish farmers security—as this year shows, it would be unwise to take may be able to undercut Wiltshire farmers because of a land out of production that we might need in future difference in devolved Government support, the Secretary crises—but it is also about a way of life. In a mysterious of State was quick to make an assurance and a commitment sense, landscape is a human construct bounded by walls to the hon. Gentleman that that would not be possible—I and ditches, marked by copses and fields that have been must apologise to the hon. Gentleman for not giving him maintained by people who owned or rented the land for prior notice that I would mention him in this debate —so generations. Land is made beautiful and meaningful perhaps the Minister could address some of these points. because it is used, not just for the public good of As regards direct payments to farmers,the comprehensive environmental wellbeing, but for the private good of spending review made clear that Scotland will be short- the people who live on it. That is why there is a special changed, especially rural Scotland. Support for rural place for farmers as stewards of a landscape in use. Scotland will be £117 million short of what was promised Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,for your patience; by 2025, despite the fact that the Government made a I thank the House too. Let me also express my appreciation manifesto commitment to match EU support. The Secretary of the Minister for her work and my support for these of State announced that, by 2028, support for farmers statutory instruments. We must maintain direct payments in England will move away from the direct payment for our farmers. We must introduce variable tariffs to scheme based on the amount of land farmed, with the make it pointless for foreign countries to export to this initial budget of £1.8 billion dropping to half that by country food made to lower standards than ours. We 2024. To be clear, we fully support the move away from must protect our farmers, because their private good is rewarding land ownership to rewarding output, productivity the public good. and land stewardship. Nevertheless, that leaves several years in which farmers will face a shortfall in payments. 3.32 pm That will not happen in Scotland, because the Scottish Government have committed independently to continuing Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): There are three instruments payments at the same level as currently. The National before us today. I will not touch on the Agriculture and Farmers Union president, Minette Batters, said: Horticulture Development Board (Amendment) Order “Expecting farmers to run viable, high-cost farm businesses, 2020, which affects England and Wales, but I will discuss continue to produce food and increase their environmental delivery, the provisions relating to the World Trade Organisation while phasing out existing support and without a complete replacement and direct payments to farmers. scheme for almost three years is high risk and a very big ask.” 365 Agriculture 2 DECEMBER 2020 Agriculture 366

[Dave Doogan] I reassure the hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan) that Scotland has not been short-changed. Our manifesto The wisdom of pursuing such changes at a time of such committed to guaranteeing the current annual budget broad upheaval is a challenge for the industry and to farmers in every year of this Parliament, and we are perhaps deeply questionable. delivering on that manifesto. The Secretary of State It is also necessary that the UK Government clarify mentioned this several times when asked about it when that there will be no undermining of the Scottish he gave his statement to the House on the agricultural Government’s ability to set and administer support for transition plan—was that only on Monday, Madam agriculture in whatever way they see fit. The statutory Deputy Speaker? I repeat what he said: EU funding instrument makes changes concerning the new system currently still flows to the various nations and we will of direct payments for farmers in England, including top that up to the agreed level, which is £595 million for setting a ceiling on payments in England. Can the Scotland annually. We used 2019 exchange rates, which Minister assure me that that will result solely in positive were very favourable—a good thing—and that means consequences for Scotland through Barnett consequentials? that our commitment is greater than that which was spent under the common agricultural policy. 3.37 pm The Rural Payments Agency was mentioned, and I Victoria Prentis: It is lovely to have you in the Chair, thank it enormously for its work to pay farmers over Madam Deputy Speaker. A large number of questions the past two or three days. The figures this year have have been asked. I will endeavour to answer them as been superb. A number of Members of this House who best I can, but if I miss any, hon. Members should not are in receipt of direct payments have been at pains to hesitate to catch up with me afterwards. come up to me to thank me for their speedy payment this year, and I know that many farmers are impressed The hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) with the current service. I have a great deal of confidence mentioned avian flu and his constructive approach, which in the RPA and I am very grateful to it for its hard work we have discussed outside the Chamber. As is clear,poultry in these difficult times. will not initially be part of this new scheme, but I have asked and have been assured that the scheme and the Although they were broadly out of the scope of this new framework is sufficiently flexible possibly to include debate, I wish to take a few moments to respond to poultry one day if that were considered sensible.The service some of the substantive points made by the hon. Member will be delivered by Livestock Information Ltd, which for Cambridge about “The Path to Sustainable Farming”, will be a public company jointly owned by DEFRA and which we published on Monday. This document is an the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board, important publication that sets out detail on the early and its constitution will ensure that both Government years of the agricultural transition, including, of course, and the farming industry are involved in key decisions. the reductions that we are going to make to direct payments. In 2021, we intend to apply a reduction of The projected monetised net benefit over a 10-year 5% to the first £30,000 that a farmer might receive. appraisal period is, conservatively, £30 million. We might Higher reductions will be applied to amounts in higher well hope for better. The new system is not yet live, but payment bands. Weintend to legislate for those reductions the existing sheep service is due to transition to the new in an affirmative statutory instrument early next year. arrangements in the spring of 2021. Cattle and pig We will then reduce direct payments by around 15% in services—pigs, in particular,are dealt with quite differently both 2022 and 2023. at the moment—are due to transition to the new service in 2022. The new service does not replace the individual The money each year will still go to farmers. We will traceability services run by the devolved Administrations. ensure that they can access new schemes as receipts All data provided by the DAs and DEFRA to enable from direct payments fall. In 2022, we will start to roll the AHDB to run the UK view will be handled in out some core elements of the new schemes, and our accordance with the data-sharing agreement that will be sustainable farming incentive will support new approaches agreed by all Administrations. The AHDB will not be to farm husbandry. We are also offering a range of able to use data outside the terms of that agreement. interventions to help farmers to get their businesses An important part of the traceability aspect of the ready for transition, including a slurry scheme and a programme is the work with the DAs to share data to research and development scheme, and from 2022 we ensure seamless traceability throughout the UK, which plan to offer an exit-support scheme. is important. DEFRA and the DAs will enter into an We have confirmed our intention to make further agreement to control and share data jointly—that is the simplifications to direct payments schemes from the UK view—and each territory’s traceability systems will 2021 scheme year. These simplifications will be made be able to communicate with each other to support through a separate statutory instrument, which we intend day-to-day business operations. That is clearly important to lay shortly.Changes will include removing the so-called for all parts of the UK. “greening rules”—if ever anything were misnamed. it is Let me turn to the Direct Payments to Farmers those; they are in fact complicated red tape and have (Legislative Continuity) Act 2020, which was focused, delivered very little for the environment—removing the as we said at the time, on maintaining the status quo as requirement for farmers to use all direct payment the UK left the EU. It was not there to extend the scope entitlements at least once every two years; improving of the regulations beyond 2020. The Agriculture Act is, the arrangements for farmers whose land crosses borders in my view, the proper place for our post-2020 changes, between our nations; and extending the application which is why we have introduced this SI. The changes in period for farmers to make force majeure applications. the SI are not specific to 2021, so we will not need to 2021 is going to be a crucial year for agriculture and bring forward SIs to deal with direct payments in future we will continue to work with farmers to get the start of years of the transition. the transition right, including consulting on delinking 367 Agriculture 2 DECEMBER 2020 Agriculture 368 of direct payments and exit schemes and starting the matters for other parts of the UK. However, I would national pilot for the new schemes. We are keen to like to say, as I have said before, that England, Scotland, continue working with Members on both sides of the Wales and Northern Ireland officials have worked closely House as we progress our reforms. throughout the process of drafting these regulations Turning to the comments made by my hon. Friend and the final version takes into account the views of all the Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger), let me say four Administrations. that of course his mummy knows best. I learnt to cook I am sorry that I have taken rather longer than at her school, so I have always been a big fan of his anticipated, Madam Deputy Speaker, but a number of mummy. I went on a catering course there. It was a very important questions were raised. I hope I have been long time ago, I am ashamed to say, but I use what I was able to answer them. What I hope will be clear to taught almost every day of my life and I think of her Members is how important these instruments are in often. As he mentions my dad, I also ought to mention implementing the intentions of the Agriculture Act. that it is his 78th birthday today—so he is only slightly They provide continuity and certainty for stakeholders older than the average basic payment scheme recipient. and beneficiaries in continuing direct payments beyond It is right that in a debate about farming he is congratulated 2020. They enable us to fulfil our international obligations on his birthday. My hon. Friend made a thoughtful on agriculture and they provide the basis for the beginning speech, and his local farmers should be grateful for not of the agricultural transition. I urge the House to only his mother’s support, but his. I welcomed his input accept them. into the Agriculture Bill Committee. He is right to Question put and agreed to. mention the more philosophical aspects. It is right that Resolved, we discuss those as we make the most important changes in British farming for 50 years. I reassure him that I very That the draft Agriculture and Horticulture Development much feel it is my job to stand up for British farming, Board (Amendment) Order 2020, which was laid before this House on 12 November, be approved. and I believe that this Government, who have committed to total spend on agriculture for each year of this Parliament that is generous and right, will do that. AGRICULTURE A few other points were made on the WTO statutory Resolved, instrument. The powers given to the Secretary of State That the draft Direct Payments to Farmers (England) by part 6 could not allow the Government to deviate (Amendment) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this from the standards on animal welfare or animal food House on 12 November, be approved.—(Victoria Prentis.) labelling. We discussed that in Committee at length. The issues are not within the scope of the agreement on agriculture, so the Agriculture Act simply could not AGRICULTURE apply in that way. The instrument is reserved to the UK Resolved, Government because the functions within it simply That the draft World Trade Organisation Agreement on Agriculture cannot be exercised by the devolved Administrations—they (Domestic Support) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this do not have the legislative competence to act in these House on 12 November, be approved.—(Victoria Prentis.) 369 2 DECEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union 370 (Plant Health) Exiting the European Union (Plant Health) Victoria Prentis: I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. This is a matter that he and I have discussed before and I know that he is every bit as ambitious for 3.49 pm the future of British horticulture as I am. I really do The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for think that there is more that we could be growing here Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis): and I very much hope that, in the next few years, that comes I beg to move, to pass. That the draft Plant Health (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) This SI also contains amendments to primary legislation Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 10 November, to remove references to EU obligations. These changes be approved. have no operational impact, but simply remove redundant and inoperable references to EU obligations. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): With this we will take the following motion: I turn to the phytosanitary conditions SI. This sets out the lists for Great Britain of quarantine pests, That the draft Plant Health (Phytosanitary Conditions) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before provisional quarantine pests, pest-free area quarantine this House on 10 November, be approved. pests and regulated non-quarantine pests. It also sets out measures in relation to the introduction of plants, Victoria Prentis: These statutory instruments will plant products and other relevant objects into Great establish the future plant health regime for Great Britain Britain and the movement of these within Great Britain. by ensuring that EU legislation relating to phytosanitary controls, which is retained under the EU withdrawal Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister Act, is operable after the end of the transition period. for giving way and for outlining the regulations. In Devolved Administrations have given their consent to relation to Northern Ireland, which has built a fantastic these SIs. reputation on a top-quality product, and most of the It is our responsibility to protect biosecurity across agri-food sector we have export, what discussions has plant and animal health and the wider ecosystem. It is she had with the Minister in Northern Ireland and important that our biosecurity protections are aligned would those discussions ensure that our high-quality to address the specific and often unique risks that relate standards would be maintained as well, within the to Great Britain. These regulations are specifically about United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? protecting plant biosecurity. On the plant health SI, this makes operability amendments to the retained EU plant health regulation Victoria Prentis: The hon. Gentleman is a great champion to reflect the risks to Great Britain, rather than the risks for his farmers. This SI is related to GB only, but I to the wider EU, and to reflect the EU’s status as a third assure him that I speak very frequently to the Minister country after the end of the transition period. There are in Northern Ireland. I have not done so this week, but I amendments to implement a new UK plant passport in do generally often and I probably will in the course of place of the current EU one, with the format of the new the next few days. I know that he and I are both document set out within the SI. committed to very high standards in British agriculture. From the end of the transition period, Great Britain In making these operability changes, we are focused will also no longer use the EU protected zone arrangements on ensuring that the phytosanitary controls reflect actual and will instead move to using pest-free areas, an risks to Great Britain. The risk assessment process follows internationally recognised classification that allows countries the UK’s well established risk management methodology to take additional protective measures against incursions using our UK plant health risk register as our principal from pests which are established elsewhere. screening tool. Applying this evidence-based process to The SI also makes transitional provisions to allow the determine our lists of regulated plants, products and continued flow of trade and to reflect the phased import pests for the future has resulted in increased focus on requirements detailed in the published border operating the threats about which we really need to be concerned. model. Phytosanitary certificates will be required for For example, some pests that pose a risk only to citrus, those plants and plant products from the EU that pose rice and other tropical crops, which we do not grow, the highest biosecurity risk to Great Britain from 1 have been deregulated. This has positive impacts, as it January, where import controls for lower-risk plant allows our inspectors to focus their efforts on the higher-risk material will be phased in gradually from April. commodities about which we are concerned, such as Xylella hosts, and tree species such as plane, which we This SI makes operability amendments to the Official are really worried about. This approach means that Controls (Plant Health and Genetically Modified items that have previously been subject to restrictions or Organisms) (England) Regulations 2019 to correct prohibitions even though the risk is in fact negligible, references to EU legislation. It also makes consequential such as mangos, curry leaves and so on, are now able to amendments to fees legislation, including amendments be imported into Great Britain free of restriction. to allow charging for services relating to exports to the EU. Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con): It will not have John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): It is very important escaped the Minister’s notice that we are actually in a that we have very high standards and I am glad that we pandemic, and protection and prevention for our are doing that, but will my hon. Friend also ensure that environment before getting to that stage are really important. they are high standards that help domestic growers, How robust does she believe the implementation of this because we need to have more home-grown food on legislation will be in ensuring that we are indeed as British plates and more jobs in agriculture in Britain? protected as we can be? 371 Exiting the European Union 2 DECEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union 372 (Plant Health) (Plant Health) Victoria Prentis: My hon. Friend makes an important reported by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments point. These statutory instruments are broadly transferring and had not been raised by the Secondary Legislation rules into GB law, but we are able to use this moment in Scrutiny Committee. As we have heard, the draft Plant our history to ensure that they are better suited to us Health (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 and the biosecurity risks that concern us. As he says, in make operability amendments to the retained EU plant the midst of a pandemic that takes on a special and health regulations, as well as consequential amendments added significance. to domestic law. The draft Plant Health (Phytosanitary Protecting biosecurity is of enormous importance for Conditions) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 any Government. It is important that we facilitate the defines at some length, as I have said, the list of regulated import and movement of plant material, as my right products and pests, and prescribes the requirements for hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) entry and movement of regulated items into GB and said earlier, but this must be done in a biosecure manner. within GB to reduce the risks in connection with those That is why these operability amendments, with their pests to an acceptable level. focus on risks to GB, are so important. They establish Since the result of the European Union (Withdrawal) our future plant health regime and ensure that the Act 2018 is that the UK leaves the EU single market, current phytosanitary protections, which are vital to the operability amendments contained in this instrument protect our biosecurity, are maintained at the end of the create a single market covering GB and the crown transition period. I commend the draft regulations to dependencies. The EU will thus become a third country the House. and, as a result, will be subject to third country import controls. The Government tell us that the current policy 3.57 pm of risk-based plant health controls applied under EU Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): I echo the Minister’s legislation will continue, and that the GB risk assessment points about just how important these measures are. At process will follow the same internationally accepted first sight, they perhaps seem slightly impenetrable and principles and approach used in previous pest risk very lengthy. The two instruments run to some 272 pages analysis under the EU regime. Internal controls will and 76 pages, and I doubt whether any of us has the also continue to apply to the movement of goods within energy or the expertise to be absolutely certain that the GB internal market. everything is correct. As we have said in many other We are also told that the revised approach for EU statutory instrument debates, it is probably only the imports will be phased in over six months from 1 January people who are drafting them who really know that for next year, in the Government’s words, to sure. So there is always some cause for concern. On a personal level, I remember visiting the fantastic Sainsbury “stagger the operational implementation of controls on EU products to allow trade to continue to flow whilst businesses adapt to the laboratory in the University of Cambridge a few years application of third country import controls. This will be a ago to be briefed on ash dieback. It is striking to see not temporary and risk-based transitional arrangement, with the aim only the excellent work that is being done to tackle these of ensuring consistent and technically justified import controls issues but the constant threats that we are facing. That which apply to all countries exporting to GB.” is why it is so important that these controls are in place The instruments also include a requirement to use UK and that they are transposed in the correct way. rather than EU plant passports for intra-GB movements Weare told that these two SIs have been laid using powers of plant-passported commodities. This will require under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, and businesses that move plant-passported commodities within that their stated aim is to protect biosecurity and support GB to modify the reference code they use when issuing trade by ensuring that effective phytosanitary controls plant passports, replacing EU with UK. The process for continue to operate within GB and between GB and the authorising businesses with plant passporting, we are EU at the end the transition period. We are also told told, will not change. The Department for Environment, that they establish the future plant health regime for Food and Rural Affairs tells us that Great Britain by ensuring that EU legislation related to “businesses who will need to use the system from 1 January 2021 phytosanitary controls is retained—and corrected as are likely to already be registered. Therefore, we expect no extra necessary, as the Minister has explained—to maintain impact on business from this change.” the existing risk-based approach. The Animal and Plant Some questions follow from all of that. In 7.2 of the Health Agency and the Forestry Commission will be explanatory notes for the draft Plant Health (Amendment delivering the measures in these regulations, and we are etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, it says that under told that they are developing an implementation plan these regulations our risk-based plant health controls and that associated guidance will be published on gov.uk. will now We are also told that separate legislative arrangements will be needed for Northern Ireland in order to maintain “focus on risks to GB, rather than risks to the EU”. alignment with sanitary and phytosanitary-related EU I was going to ask the Minister to explain what that regulations and to specify requirements for GB goods means in practice. I think she has made reference to that entering Northern Ireland. Well, that is probably an already, but to repeat my question from previous debates understatement. I would echo some of the comments around report and review, can she tell us when these made by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), policies will be reviewed and where that sits in relation and I will return to that later. to reviews already promised to be undertaken by the The Government say that the amendments introduced EU? Should the EU tighten their standards, would we are technical operability amendments and do not include be doing likewise and vice versa? any policy changes. That is what is said, of course, of As I have said, Madam Deputy Speaker, these are many statutory instruments and we may beg to differ at very, very lengthy, detailed instruments. I am eternally some point. It appears that no impact assessments have grateful to Greener UK, which has found the time to been carried out, and that the regulations were not look at them in some detail. It raises some points, as it 373 Exiting the European Union 2 DECEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union 374 (Plant Health) (Plant Health) [Daniel Zeichner] is appropriate in the light of a risk assessment in relation to a plant, plant product or other object.” often does, that I suspect the Minister may wish to write Removing a defined process for strong committee-level to me on, because they are detailed and I would not scrutiny—that is, us—and decision making and replacing expect her necessarily to have an answer to hand. She that with a standard reference to the right of the appropriate may do—she may surprise me. Greener UK tells me authority to make regulations represents, in the view of that regulation 28(24)(c) changes the requirement in Greener UK, an unhelpful weakening of oversight, and article 25(4) of EU regulation 2016/2031. This is in the I rather agree. This will be particularly pertinent if the draft Plant Health (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations Government choose to pass future regulations via 2020—the first one, I think. Deep in that regulation the negative procedure. Will the Minister explain why there is a change for the UK to establish priority pest the EU examination procedure could not be replicated plans for all listed pests within four years of the 2019 within the UK context to provide clear democratic EU regulation, to instead set a deadline of 1 January oversight of amendments? Will she outline how the 2023. This is in line with the previous timescale. However, Government propose to ensure that levels of scrutiny the clause also adds a line, 4A, disapplying that requirement for secondary legislation pertaining to to any priority pest removed from that list before the “the environment, security and safety, or protection of the health same date. While the intent behind that may be simply or safety, of humans, animals or plants” to clarify, it would be superfluous to create a plan for a will not be weakened as a result of these changes? pest that is no longer considered a threat. In the view of Greener UK, this explicit reference appears to potentially I am grateful to Greener UK for finding these detailed incentivise the late development contingency plans. It points. As I said, I do not necessarily require a reply may well be that that is covered by some of the points today. I will conclude with some more basic questions. that the Minister has already made about the differing At paragraph 7.3 of the explanatory notes for the Plant threats that we face. However, will she outline the UK’s Health (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 progress in developing such plans to date, clarify whether we are told: the Government still intend to produce such plans for “This will be a temporary and risk-based transitional arrangement further priority pests currently listed in the EU level, for plant health controls”. and provide any details on intended timescales? Will she How long is temporary, and how much risk, because I also tell us whether the Government have any plans to am not entirely sure that I like the sound of that? It change the current list after the end of the transition sounds like an excuse to me. period and whether any changes will be subject to the There has been no impact assessment of these regulations same risk assessment process used currently by the EU? on businesses, yet there are clear indications that businesses On equivalence investigations, regulation 30(7) amends will be impacted. Under these regulations, the revised paragraph 2 of article 44 of regulation 2016/2031, and approach for EU imports will be phased in over six removes a reference to the Commission’s ability to carry months from January 2021 to out investigations in third countries to determine whether “stagger the operational implementation of controls on EU products equivalence is being properly achieved. It does this to allow trade to continue to flow whilst businesses adapt to the without replacing it with a reference to an appropriate application of third country import controls.” UK body. Determinations of equivalence in biosecurity Businesses moving plant-passported commodities within and control measures will be vital to protect the UK’s GB will need to modify the reference code that they use natural ecosystems in future. This reference therefore when issuing plant passports from EU to UK, so why appears unhelpful, and the reason for deletion is unclear. has there not been an impact assessment of these It would therefore be helpful if the Minister could regulations? Is it really presumed that there will be no explain the reasoning and outline how the Government impact on businesses at all? propose to ensure the legitimacy of claims of equivalence The logic of paragraph 12.4 of the explanatory notes from third countries, and whether investigations will for the Plant Health (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) form a part of this approach. That seems to me to be a Regulations 2020 is, frankly, “Alice in Wonderland” rather important point. As I say, I do not necessarily stuff. It outlines the extra checks that will be done, expect an answer today, but it would be helpful to have which I applaud, but goes on to say that because they one at some point. are a result of the terms of the European Union The third point raised by Greener UK is on amending (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and therefore do not reflect a regulations. In a number of places, references in EU change in policy,there is no need for an impact assessment. regulation 2016/2031 via article 107(2) to a specific Can the Minister explain whether there has been an examination procedure for scrutinising and adopting impact statement somewhere else? If so, where? amendments to regulations, as contained in article 5 of reg 182/2011, are removed. The examination procedure Finally, as I suggested at the outset, the bald statement was designed to provide an additional level of scrutiny that to implementing decisions relating to specific areas of “For Northern Ireland, separate legislative arrangements will concern, including the environment, security and safety, be needed in order to maintain alignment with Sanitary and Phytosanitary related EU regulations and specify requirements or protection of the health or safety of humans, animals for GB goods entering Northern Ireland” or plants. These references to the examination procedure are replaced now with a power to amend regulations is an understatement. Could the Minister outline what that does not feature an opportunity for scrutiny. For those separate legislative arrangements will look like example, reg 30(17) replaces a requirement to follow the and when they will be ready? examination procedure with: As ever, there are many questions. Ensuring plant “The appropriate authority may by regulations amend Annex 9 health really matters. We are an island, but sadly, we to the Phytosanitary Conditions Regulation where the amendment need to be careful, and that is why we have a body of 375 Exiting the European Union 2 DECEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union 376 (Plant Health) (Plant Health) established law. It should not be weakened in any way, The hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) and while there is no desire for unnecessary extra checks, made slightly rude comments about the length of my we all benefit when we stay safe. statutory instruments. I am afraid that these transitional SIs are necessarily long because we are simply amending 4.10 pm the retained EU legislation. We are doing it in a way that genuinely makes it current, to reflect the risks to GB. Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): Both these SIs continue The extensive instruments have been through the normal the legislative decoupling of Northern Ireland from the checking procedures, including several pairs of eyes’ rest of the UK, replacing mentions of “the UK” and checks by DEFRA and other Government lawyers—as “the Union” with “Great Britain”. We have discussed the hon. Gentleman knows, I was one for 17 years—so I the operational requirements for these measures over am fairly confident that they are good enough. They the last 20 minutes, but it is telling nevertheless. They have been well scrutinised by the JCSI, on which I sat serve to highlight the additional restrictions, barriers for a number of years, and the devolved Administrations, and hurdles that will face food and drink exporters after and the versions we are debating today include helpful the end of the transition period. They are an unfortunate amendments that were made by all those people, so I but necessary reminder of the inordinate legislative and am fairly confident that the instruments are up to bureaucratic challenge that accompanies the UK’sdeparture scratch. I am as confident as I think we can be. I accept, from the EU. however, that they are long. The Horticultural Trades Association has called for a delay in the implementation of these regulations and The hon. Gentleman asked some specific questions checks on plant imports. In a roundtable discussion in about replacing the oversight of the Commission. EU mid-November, the HTA raised concerns that functions have already been incorporated into the UK-wide “The proposals as currently envisaged are logistically impossible plant health risk group arrangements. Those functions to implement” include the auditing system of SANTE F and decision- making structures such as the Standing Committee on and that Plants, Animals, Food and Feed technical committee. A “The requirements will not achieve the objective of improved sub-group of the plant health risk group will be responsible plant health because of their complexity and the administrative and financial burden they impose”. for all technical aspects of these audits. In addition, there is a national IT system, which is operational now, The HTA also understands that the required IT systems that replaces the EU notification and rapid alert system. are not ready or fully tested, and it says that the Government The UK system has been backfilled with publicly available are data from EU systems, so I am confident that the UK “pressing ahead with compromises that are wholly iniquitous for will be able to continue to benefit from that at the end of the industry”. this year. Given this concern from industry, what assurance can the Minister provide that these measures will promote As I said earlier, from 1 January, GB is introducing a and support the sector,which relies on £350 million-worth phased import regime for EU goods to maintain biosecurity of plant imports? It would be devastating to the industry and to keep trade as frictionless as possible. The phased if imports in the new growing season were disrupted EU import regime will allow time for trade to adapt to even to a reduced or marginal extent. the new import requirements for EU goods. GB plant health authorities are undertaking significant recruitment HTA chairman James Barnes said: to increase the number of plant health inspectors. The “It is imperative that government understands their proposals numbers have gone from about 200 inspectors employed represent the biggest single non-tariff barrier in the history of our industry. By asking us to comply with new terms and conditions by the Animal and Plant Health Agency to more than not yet agreed, with just 32 working days to go, represents an double that, and I believe the ambition is for 250 extra absolute ‘train crash’ for the industry and is setting us up to fail.” to be in place early next year. We have sufficient resources That chimes with my observations on issues related to to meet demand from the turn of the year and to ensure horticulture such as seasonal farm labour and the broader minimal disruption to trade. agricultural debate, which the hon. Member for Rhondda GB plant health services are currently reviewing their (Chris Bryant) raised in the previous debate in terms of operating hours to ensure that biosecurity standards the Secretary of State’s ambitions for lamb under import will continue to be met and strengthened in ways that substitution. Those things taken in tandem, and a range support trade and smooth the flow of goods while of others besides, indicate that DEFRA Ministers, if minimising the burden on businesses. There has been they are not careful, inhabit some abstract bureaucratic enormous engagement with the horticultural industry ideal world and appear dangerously disconnected from on the planning for this, with individual operators the operational realities facing our farmers, growers and and key stakeholder groups. Most recently, we have processors. Does the Minister think that the Horticultural undertaken a series of feasibility sessions, with more Trades Association is wrong, and if not, why does it than 300 participants on the Zoom, and equivalent have such a negative impression of these provisions? export sessions. Alongside that, we are hosting a series of webinars—there was one earlier this week, I think—on 4.13 pm the new plant health requirements for imports, exports Victoria Prentis: I find that I am being asked by one and internal movement. hon. Gentleman to display my legal and obsessive statutory For goods imported from the EU, which the hon. instrument skills and by another to assure him that Member for Angus raised, GB will be carrying out a I am not out of touch with farmers and will be going phased implementation of import checks, which will home to look after the sheep tonight. I can assure them be aligned to the risks posed by different regulated that both those skillsets are very useful in a modern commodities. Lower-risk goods will receive a lower farming Minister. frequency of checks. 377 Exiting the European Union 2 DECEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union (Plant 378 (Plant Health) Health) [Victoria Prentis] The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to work with NHS England and reverse this I thank all hon. Members who have contributed to decision, and to ensure that the pharmacy can continue to provide this debate. In order to prepare for the end of this year, medical, wellbeing and social care for both the young and elderly population within Binley Woods and the adjacent villages. it is essential that we have the right legislation in place to continue to protect plant biosecurity while facilitating And the petitioners remain, etc. trade and movement of plants and plant material. I [P002631] hope that hon. Members fully understand the need for these regulations, which ensure that existing regimes for Independent Review of Dyfed-Powys Police safeguarding Britain’s biosecurity will continue to operate effectively at the end of this year by addressing plant Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): My constituents and health risks faced by GB rather than the EU. I commend their daughter Carina were put through months and them to the House. years of anguish on the basis of evidence collected Question put and agreed to. against National Policing Improvement Agency guidance for which the police have never apologised, so I rise to EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION present to the House the petition of Julia and Robin (PLANT HEALTH) Burn. Resolved, The petition states: That the draft Plant Health (Phytosanitary Conditions) The petition of Julia and Robin Burn, (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before Declares that, in 2010, in conducting their investigations into this House on 10 November, be approved.—(Victoria Prentis.) allegations made against the petitioners, Dyfed-Powys Police did not proceed in accordance with the appropriate National Policing PETITIONS Improvement Agency (NPIA) guidance; further declares that these allegations were later found to be groundless and without Binley Woods local pharmacy merit; further that this resulted in the petitioners’ mute autistic daughter being taken into local authority care for six months; and 4.19 pm further that, after no further action was taken, no attempt was made to return her. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): I rise to present a The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons petition on behalf of residents in my constituency of urges the Government to instigate an independent review of Rugby regarding the decision by NHS England to remove Dyfed-Powys Police’s handling of this case. the local pharmaceutical services contract from MW And the petitioners remain, etc. Phillips Chemist in the village of Binley Woods, which [P002633] is where I grew up. The petition has run alongside an online petition on the same issue. Together, the two Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I petitions have been signed by 849 people. now suspend the House for three minutes in order to The petition states: allow the safe exit of Members participating in the The petition of residents of the constituency of Rugby, previous item of business and the safe arrival of those Declares that the local pharmacy in Binley Woods is a lifeline who anticipate with great delight the next item of business. and hub to more than 3,000 residents; and further that it is deplorable that NHS England and NHS Improvement, Midlands Region, have decided to remove the Local Pharmaceutical Services 4.22 pm (LPS) Contract from the Pharmacy. Sitting suspended. 379 2 DECEMBER 2020 : 60th Anniversary 380

Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary have been the stage to storylines that have gripped our country.We have cried together, gasped together, laughed together, and learned together. There have been iconic 4.25 pm storylines that caused the nation to take a breather from Mr Speaker: We are about to start the Adjournment people’s busy lives, make a cuppa, and pop “Corrie” on debate. Some Members from the north-west were the telly—the train crash, the tram crash, the whodunnits, determined to come here and, quite rightly, Tracy Brabin ’s reign of terror, Alan Bradley being came to me and said, “Mr Speaker, we ought to be killed by a tram in , Deirdre, Ken, and Mike’s aware that it is a very important event, and I would like love-triangle! A certain got involved in the to have an Adjournment debate.” How could I stop that? campaign to Save the One, when Deidre Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House was falsely imprisoned, and a certain Tricia Armstrong do now adjourn.—(Eddie Hughes.) was sent to prison for not paying her TV licence, and then gave birth behind the bar in the Rovers Return. Alongside all the entertainment, “Coronation Street” Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): What has bravely challenged us and our way of thinking with an enormous pleasure it is to be able to discuss the groundbreaking storylines. much-loved British institution of “Coronation Street”, as it reaches the grand old age of 60 and is still going strong. Our constituents have gone through so much in Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. Lady these last few months, and it is nice to be in this place to give way? discuss something upbeat and positive. Reaching its diamond anniversary is a phenomenal achievement, Mr Speaker: Mr Shannon, you are more than welcome especially as it remains so incredibly popular, attracting to intervene. You might even want to speak later, as we an average audience of—can you believe that it is more have a little time. Northern Ireland’s answer to Albert than that of the Parliament channel?—7 million viewers Tatlock, come on in. for each show. First screened on 9 December 1960, “Corrie” was Jim Shannon: I am not sure how to respond, Mr Speaker. part of a new realism that was sweeping through the “Coronation Street” has been going all my life, and a theatre, with “Look Back in Anger”, James Dean, wee bit more; and I understand, Mr Speaker, it has been Brando, and kitchen-sink dramas. Hardly anyone had a going all your life, and a wee bit more as well. My wife is colour telly—remember that?—and there was no such a tremendous fan of “Coronation Street”. She never thing as a remote. There were certainly no streaming misses it. Last week, in self-isolation for the second channels, and we turned the telly off at 11 and went to time, I sat and watched “Coronation Street”on numerous bed. Created by scriptwriter , “Coronation occasions with my wife in control of the remote, so I Street” did not have a straightforward beginning, and was not able to turn over. was originally rejected by Granada television before There was a poignant storyline last week about the being commissioned to run for 13 episodes. It was a loss of a young boy called Oliver. We watched every night slow burn, with Daily Mirror columnist, Ken Irwin, it was on during the week, and a person would need a saying that it would “only last three weeks.” Earlier this heart of stone not to be moved by that story, how they year its 10,000th episode was broadcast, and in 2010, it portrayed in a soap what affects people in reality. The became the longest running television in the soaps have a tremendous role to play in telling the world, earning a place in the “Guinness Book of Records.” stories of real life out there, and last week “Coronation Set in the fictional working-class Weatherfield in Street”did that with real passion, understanding, carefulness Salford, “Coronation Street” has never disguised its and caution— roots. It is warm and authentic, at times laugh-out-loud funny, and at other times deeply affecting. From the Mr Speaker: Mr Shannon, I said you could intervene. very beginning, the northern dialect was used. I do not I will put you down to speak. You do not need to make know if any hon. Members are old enough to remember a speech in an intervention. those early episodes, with a young man by the name of achieving a university place and finding Tracy Brabin: That was a really excellent intervention, himself embarrassed about his working-class upbringing. because it highlights the quality of the writing and the As a proud northerner, that is not something I have ever pressure that the crew and the actors are under, in this felt, and I am proud that this show, which is as much a time of covid, to deliver those performances while being part of British culture as a nice cuppa, a fish ’n’ chip two metres apart, while wearing masks in public areas supper,or sitting down to the Queen’sspeech on Christmas and while having all those other restrictions, and often day, is played out in a working-class community in the in one or two takes, if they are lucky. Those authentic, north. passionate, emotional performances absolutely gripped In among the love stories, the breakups, the punch-ups, the nation, and it is now on record in Parliament that and the laughs over a hotpot, “Corrie” has always been they are two extraordinary actors. They will definitely true to the everyday difficulties that life, particularly be in line for awards. working-class life, can bring, with strong feisty women The stories I spoke of have helped untold numbers at the centre of the action. As classically to understand their own personal difficulties, to speak said, “I don’t expect life to be easy. I’d think very little out and to get help if they need it. Hayley, the first of it if it was”—a good rule of thumb for the moment. ever transgender British soap character, was portrayed Since those early days on the street, we have witnessed wonderfully by my good friend Julie Hesmondhalgh, one or two things happen to the people of Weatherfield who gripped us right to the end when she committed over the decades—many things—and those famous cobbles suicide in Roy’s arms. 381 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary 382

Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. “Corrie” has given us actors and characters so well Friend on securing this debate, and I congratulate all written and so brilliantly acted that they could be part the team who work on “Coronation Street” on reaching of the family. Names such as Jack, Vera, Roy, Rita, this milestone. Does she agree that “Coronation Street” Steve, Gail, Ken, Sally, Jim, Betty, Mike, Fred—the list should be recognised for its groundbreaking storylines could go on and on of characters so distinctive that over the years? She mentioned the first trans character they are recognised across the country by their first in a British soap in, I think, 1998 and how “Coronation name alone. It is also a show that incubates talent, giving Street” has sensitively highlighted social issues such as new actors a chance to cut their teeth on great storylines that, teen pregnancy, domestic violence and male rape. and powerful emotions. “Corrie” gave us early moments in the careers of Ben Kingsley, Sir Patrick Stewart, Tracy Brabin: That is a great intervention, because Joanna Lumley, , Joanne Froggatt and wasn’t it groundbreaking? So many families watching Bradley Walsh. Even Sir Ian McKellen dropped by, that storyline in their living room may not have understood wearing a very dodgy hat and scarf, I seem to recall. the humanity or the difficulties of being trans in 21st-century Britain, but they loved Hayley. It opens people’s mind Writers including Jack Rosenthal, Kay Mellor, to things they may not necessarily have experienced, so Sally Wainwright and Paul Abbott have all worked in my hon. Friend is absolutely right. Those script writers the writers room carving out brilliant plotlines and pushed the boundaries. They were very brave to have one-liners. So powerful is the writing that as a young that storyline, but we loved her. We really did love that girl I felt the trials and tribulations facing the Duckworths couple so much. It was absolutely heartbreaking. were as vivid as those of my own family. To go on to become part of “Coronation Street” was almost an To pick up on a couple of other storylines: Aidan’s impossible dream. suicide, which led to more calls to the Samaritans than they have ever had; Shona’s memory loss; revenge porn; Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): I happened racism, with the writers working closely with Doreen to switch on my TV, and when I saw “Corrie” was being Lawrence to make it authentic and to give it credibility; discussed I had to come down and pay tribute as a and James, a young gay footballer struggling against north-west MP. It is not just the actors and the writers homophobia. And, right up to recent days, with Bethany that “Coronation Street” has developed. There are also Platt’s sexual exploitation, David Platt’s male rape ordeal, the back room staff who are so critical to delivering Yasmeen’smarital coercive control and, as was mentioned, brilliant television day in, day out—the wardrobe team, the sad death of baby Oliver. Never shying away from a the make-up artists, the camera operators and so on. difficult storyline and shining a light into the lived “Coronation Street”and Granada Television have fostered experience of others is what our soap operas do best. and developed that talent, transforming the north-west They strive to inform as well as to entertain. of England into a TV powerhouse. I am sure the hon. Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): I congratulate the hon. Lady agrees, having spent time at , that Lady on securing this debate. As a long-time fan of the that embryonic development has played a significant programme and, indeed, her role in it, I am a little bit role in transforming the north-west media environment. jealous, having only graced the small screen reading the Tracy Brabin: I could not agree more, and I will go on news—nothing as glamorous as the Street. She mentioned to talk about how creativity and the creative industries the topical storyline of the challenge of being a gay can be a powerhouse and an engine of regeneration in footballer, but I would submit that the Street has done a our communities in the north. great deal over many years to support challenging attitudes to homosexuality,particularly by following the experiences Let me speak a little more personally for a minute. I of existing and well-loved characters such as Todd grew up in a housing estate in Howden Clough in Grimshaw or Sophie as they came out, and Batley, watching acts at the Batley Variety Club. For a more recently gay parents. Does she agree that it is by working-class kid like me, it was a source of pride and being entertaining that information is often best imparted wonder that huge stars of the day, such as Shirley and taboos are overcome? Bassey and Louis Armstrong, came to my bit of the world. Seeing photographs of Eartha Kitt eating chips Tracy Brabin: I thank the hon. Gentleman so much in Dewsbury market is sort of mind-blowing. It set me for that intervention—he is absolutely right. As we were on a path that was hard. I worked in precarious jobs saying about the trans character, these things could not trying to make it, sleeping on couches and living hand be discussed in any other forum than that of a show. to mouth, like so many aspiring actors do. We all know Looking at fictional characters, we wonder, “What would how tough it is to get on in such industries for those I think if I was that person?” Storytelling has huge who do not have rich parents,. For working-class northern power to change people’s mind. actors, working on “Coronation Street” meant you had If my history of soaps is correct, the first ever male arrived. We had grown up watching it, and we wanted gay kiss on television was on “EastEnders” and the first to be in it. I got the chance to work with the legends of female gay kiss on “Brookside”. We must not forget “Corrie”—Jack and Vera, Raquel, and Betty the power of those shows to get that liberal view and Turpin—watching and learning. As someone who had those conversations going in people’s living rooms. As not been to drama school, the ability to memorise pages Dame Carol Ann Duffy said at the funeral of the and pages of script overnight and bring authentic emotions creator of “Coronation Street”, Tony Warren, and truth to the work was a skill I learned on that job. “the millions who have loved Coronation Street for over half a Manymayknow me as Tricia Armstrong, but aficionados century have lost their Dickens.” may also know that I joined the show for three episodes Isn’t that the truth? He and others are commentators on playing Chloe, a toy shop manageress. It was a Christmas our lives; they amplify and give opportunities to share episode, and I ended up on top of the roof of the toy experiences. shop with Peter Baldwin dressed as Father Christmas. 383 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary 384

I must have impressed in that role, because I was then Like all parts of life, covid has put massive obstacles invited to come back a number of years later as Tricia in the path of “Coronation Street”, and the team has Armstrong. That first day was, as the House can imagine, worked hard to overcome them. The Rovers Return is very overwhelming. Everybody in the green room was a not that busy these days. The desks in the factory are famous face. When you have —he is now, slightly more spread out than they used to be, reflecting unbelievably, 88—saying, “Would you like a cup of tea, the regulations of real life, and keeping cast and crew as Tracy?”, it is quite a surreal experience, as was working safe as possible while bringing familiar entertainment with Liz Dawn, who had her lines stuck all over the set to our homes. While the Minister is here, let me say that like in “The Generation Game”, because she could not large parts of film and television production have been remember all of it. As long as there was a bit of script able to get back on track thanks to the support of the somewhere, she was all right. Famously one Christmas Government around insurance. Screen production is she pulled out the chicken and the lines were on the part of a creative ecosystem, and to get it fully functioning bum of the chicken as it came out—I thought, “Very once again our performing arts, theatres, music festivals convenient.” Then there was Annie Kirkbride, who we and venues also need that insurance support to keep as all sadly miss, who played Deirdre. Her wicked sense of buoyant as they can be. humour creased us up in serious scenes. During the last few months of pain and frustration, Having struggled with the feast and famine nature of there have been many times when I am sure that many the freelance life, it was such a huge relief to have of us would have found familiarity and comfort in these regular paid work, a paid holiday and a chance to save. words from the legendary Blanche, written by my good More than that, it was the honour of being part of friend Damon Rochefort: “In my day,summit bad ‘appened something so associated with my class and being in the you stayed home, got drunk and bit on a shoe.” I think homes of people every night who shared my accent and that is quite a good metaphor for the times we live in. my experiences. If there is one thing in our country that can cross “Corrie” is not just about portrayal or about telling political divides, it is our love of “Coronation Street”. I working-class stories brilliantly; it is, as the hon. Member am incredibly proud to have been part of the show’s for Warrington South (Andy Carter) says, absolutely history.I am one of thousands of actors, writers, producers, about jobs in the north. It is not just about actors and directors, costume makers and off-screen staff who directors, but schedulers, designers, editors, costume have worked around the clock—trust me, I absolutely and make-up, researchers, the props team, office staff, mean around the clock—to bring this programme to accountants, carpenters, electricians, painters, security our screens year after year, decade after decade, never guards and canteen staff—the list goes on. slipping in quality. Now I am proudly one of the Mr Speaker, you may know I am standing to be the millions of fans of “Coronation Street” who make the candidate for the West Yorkshire Mayor. If I am elected, show so special, and I know that history is still there to that experience on “Coronation Street” will drive my be made, so here’s to the next 60 years. creative new deal, because our entertainment industries Mr Speaker: Thank you. As somebody who was born also have the power to build our economies, to deliver and brought up in Granadaland and who has seen regeneration and to provide opportunity, hope and skills, “Coronation Street” develop, it would be remiss of me and that process will take inspiration from “Coronation not to be in the Chair at the start of this debate. Shortly Street”, as it has shown us how important television can I am going to hand over to another north-west Chair be for the economy. from Lancashire—Nigel Evans, no less. It is interesting “Coronation Street” has a bespoke 7.7 acre set in the that in “Coronation Street”, they always talk about north-west. It employs about 450 people and hundreds going to market, because they know the good and hundreds of freelancers. It firmly cements the value of Chorley market. The other thing, of course, is importance of the north in TV’s history, and in its that Ken Morley is from Chorley; he is just one of the future, too. We know it is a creative powerhouse, and stars who have been in “Coronation Street”. At home I the skills and talent it nurtures and develops have aided have a tray from Newton and Ridley from the set of and continue to aid the gentrification of Salford. “Coronation Street”. Both myself and Mr Evans were I know that ITV takes the development of skills very on “The Politics Show” and we had to answer a certain seriously. To this day, it supports Tony Warren’s number of questions. Guess who won—I’ve got the tray! determination to be a champion of local talent. Tony No more from me. I call Conor Burns. wanted to support disadvantaged young people to get a career in an industry that is famously difficult to get 4.47 pm started in. Shortly before his death in 2016, he worked Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): I congratulate with “Coronation Street” and ITV to establish a bursary my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen to support local actors from disadvantaged backgrounds (Tracy Brabin) on securing this debate; I call her my to train at drama schools. I can think of no better hon. Friend on this occasion because we are all here legacy for a man whose creation has brought us 60 years today, friends of the Street. The Minister for Media and of public service broadcasting at its best. Data, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon The success of “Coronation Street”is built on a healthy (Mr Whittingdale), is on the Front Bench. He knows and well-supported public service broadcasting system. what a long-term, dedicated, ardent “Corrie” fan I am. In order to preserve these valuable national treasures, I have visited the set on a number of occasions with reforms need to be made to protect and support our him. I was saying to my hon. Friend the Member for PSB. I hope that the Minister, when he gets to his feet, Buckingham (Greg Smith) earlier that I could just will also reflect on that and work with the broadcasters imagine the scene in the Department as the Minister’s and to ensure public service broadcasters can officials grappled with putting together a script. I think continue to deliver for their audiences and, more urgently, we could have had a spin-off, watching them going for our regions. through the history of the storylines and characters. 385 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary 386

[Conor Burns] homelessness, stillbirth and suicide. Most recently, there were the incredibly moving scenes in which Aidan Connor Mr Speaker, you mentioned the Newton and Ridley committed suicide, played by the brilliant , tray. One of my most prized possessions is a cobble and the incredibly moving scenes—award-winning scenes, from the original Street that was given to me in a frankly—with Daniel and Sinead as Sinead died, leaving presentation case by the cast: “To Conor Burns, a great a young child behind. Daniel is played by the brilliant friend of the Street and of the show.” That is used on Rob Mallard, who is the on-screen son of Ken Barlow. I my desk as a serious paperweight, because those cobbles have to say that Rob, I think, is going to have the are very deep. longevity of Ken Barlow and Bill Roache. I have visited “Coronation Street” on a number of However, there is also the humour that the hon. Lady occasions, both before I was elected to this place and raised and talked about. Who can ever forget the scene subsequently; I go more or less annually. I went with my where Blanche, Peter, Ken and Deirdre go to Peter’s hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham in 2009, meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, and Blanche brings before I was elected to the House of Commons. We out all the dirty laundry to air it in public? Somebody went for the purpose of doing a political leaflet. I says to her, “I am not a fan of yours”, and she replies, wondered how to engage some of the communities in “I am not particularly a fan of your halitosis either.” my Bournemouth constituency, so we met up with Bill She is desperately missed. There was the humour of Roache and had pictures taken in one of the booths in Percy Sugden and Phyllis, Rita and Mavis, the relationship the Rovers. There were also pictures of he and I walking between Ken and Mike Baldwin, and Stan and Hilda. I along outside No. 1, and of us both sitting at Ken and remember from when I was a very young child—I have Deirdre’s dining room table. We did it as an interview been watching “Coronation Street”for over 40 years—when with Bill Roache. The number of people who picked up they win the weekend away to a hotel. Hilda puts on and read a political leaflet because Ken Barlow was some special lipstick, and Stan kisses her and says, talking to the Tory candidate—they were just intrigued. “What does that taste of?”—“It tastes of woman, Stan, I think it was probably the best piece of political literature woman.” That is one of the best scenes I have ever seen. that I have ever done. Next week, we have the actual anniversary on 9 December. “Coronation Street” celebrated its 10,000th I visited again a couple of years ago, and Rita and episode on 7 February this year. I think we should all Audrey were filming in the salon the Christmas scenes. salute everybody who has played a part over those This was in October, and we were at the conference. I 60 years in making it the national institution it is, and in made the mistake of saying to Sue Nicholls that I well particular Bill Roache, the longest-serving soap cast remembered watching her as a child on “Rentaghost”, member in the world. By the way, for anybody watching without realising this would cause her significant offence, this who does not know about “Coronation Street”, I because it pointed out the longevity and the age gap. would commend to them the wonderful programme My right hon. Friend the Minister worked with “The Road to Coronation Street”, in which Bill was Lady Thatcher when, as Prime Minister in 1989, she played by his real life son James Roache. It charts the visited the set of “Coronation Street”. I have never story of Tony Warren taking this to the leaders of Granada quite known whether this story is apocryphal or actually and having it rejected, and then its being played internally happened, but it was reported that people were explaining and the tea ladies and others being suddenly gripped by to her on the way up that Alderman Roberts runs the it, and they saw the power it could have. corner shop and Ken Barlow used to edit the local I end by saying this: “Coronation Street”is a family—the newspaper, and basically setting out who all the key cast, the crew, the production teams, the writers, the characters were—Bet Lynch was the landlady of the directors, and everybody at MediaCity who puts so Rovers—and she is reported to have said just before she much into turning out this quality, dramatic, humorous got out of the car, to the terror of those accompanying production. They have done brilliantly during the pandemic her, “Now, which one is Alf Garnett?” in making sure that there are still fresh, vibrant episodes My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has yet to coming out at each week. I simply say, as a long-term visit “Coronation Street”, and I hope that that is something fan, thanks to everybody involved in making “Coronation he will rectify, for those of us who are dedicated fans Street” for the laughter, the drama, the heartbreak, the take great offence at the fact that, as Mayor of London, tears and the smiles for the last 60 years. It sustains me he went to the inferior “EastEnders”, but has not yet in a positive way to know that it will be going long after paid tribute to “Coronation Street”. The 60th anniversary I cease to be on this earth. would be a good occasion for the Prime Minister to go up to “Coronation Street” and say thank you on behalf 4.55 pm of the Government and the United Kingdom. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Mr Speaker, you The hon. Member for Batley and Spen went through enticed me to say a few words, so I feel that I should. I some of the groundbreaking issues that the writers and really want to, by the way. My intervention earlier was a the cast have covered, and I think that is one of the speech on its own. What lovely and humorous recollections things that has embedded “Coronation Street”in the heart from to the hon. Member for Batley and Spen (Tracy of the nation. It has been groundbreaking in the issues Brabin). “Coronation Street” always gives hard stories, it has been prepared to cover. We have talked about the but it also gives humour. I was thinking back on the and Bruno Langley—Nick and Todd—gay 60-plus years that “Coronation Street” has been here—it kiss. There is domestic abuse dating back to Rita and might be here a wee bit longer—and I remember vividly Alan Bradley, but most recently with Geoff and Yasmeen. the things that happened on the black and white TV, It has dealt with child death, assisted suicide, the Roy and because they happened in our village of Ballywalter in Hayley sex change, rape, adultery, teenage pregnancy, the ‘60s and ‘70s. They were facts of life. 387 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary 388

We did not have very much when we were young. I’ve really no idea what you said there—would you That did not do us any harm, by the way. It gave us a repeat it?” So I really do value the opportunity to be compassion for others, I always thought. With my mum involved in this debate. and dad in my house, while we might not have had much materially, we certainly had all the things that Gavin Robinson: The right hon. Member for were important in life—the love of our parents and Bournemouth West (Conor Burns) and, of course, my family. Along with the black and white TV and the hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) storylines, one thing that resonated in my mind when will understand this reference: in Northern Ireland, we the hon. Lady was speaking was the three ducks on the cannot watch “Coronation Street” without enjoying the wall, because we had them in our house. Those might continuity announcement from Julian Simmons just have been small things in “Corrie”, but they resonated before. Sadly, ITN has brought Julian to an end. If with us. I could almost say that every one of the characters people do not understand who Julian is, I hope they Members spoke of was so-and-so in the village. Male or check on YouTube for some of his introductions to female, whoever it may have been—they had the “Coronation Street”. He always gave a précis in his characteristics of that person. I will not say who they inimitable, incredibly camp style. Perhaps I can give just were, because that would not be fair, but it was people I one quote: I cannot even remember who he was talking noticed. Growing up in Ballywalter in the ‘60s and ‘70s, about, but he said, every one of those stories were real stories, because we “once a lying, cheating, two-timing bigamist, always a lying, could understand and relate to them. cheating, two-timing bigamist. A leopard never changes its spots— especially when it’s got a nose like a cooker hood.” When I got married some 33 and a half years ago, my wife loved cats and I loved dogs. I did not particularly Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that like cats, but I realised that, if I loved my wife, I had to intervention. Julian Simmons had that role as the person love her cats. That is how life is. I also realised early on who tells us about the “Coronation Street” episode that that my wife was a fan of “Corrie”, and indeed of all is on the way, giving us that wee storyline, but his time the soaps. Such is her knowledge of all the characters at UTV and ITV has come to an end. and stories of “Coronation Street” and other soaps that I thank everyone in “Corrie” for what they have done. I suspect that my good lady could become a scriptwriter What an opportunity this has been to speak, in a small for “Coronation Street”. The other great thing I have way, about the good things that “Corrie” has brought realised through all these years of marriage is that into our lives, as well as the hard stories. It reminds us Sandra is in control of the remote whenever “Coronation that life is not always roses for everyone—it is not Street” was on, and I have absolutely no chance of always that way—but that it is also fun and laughter. watching any other programme, be it football or whatever. “Coronation Street” does that exceptionally well. That is just how life is. I loved the mischief, the storylines and the real-life 5.1 pm stories. When I intervened on the hon. Lady, I referred Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): I thank the hon. to the story of Oliver, the young boy who died on the Member for Batley and Spen (Tracy Brabin) for securing TV programme last week. People will say that it is only this debate. We should also thank my right hon. Friend a soap and not real life, but it portrays real life—I saw it the Leader of the House, because clearly he set the in the story last week. Last week, in self-isolation with business for this week and ensured that the debates on my wife, and with her in control of the remote, I really the motions before us this afternoon were going to be became involved in the story that they were telling. That fairly short so that we could have a substantial, longer than is what the right hon. Member for Bournemouth West usual Adjournment debate to celebrate the 60th anniversary (Conor Burns) referred to. It was hard not to be involved, of “Coronation Street”. and it was hard, at the end of the week, not to be I have been a fan of “Coronation Street” since I was moved, emotionally, by the storyline, because I was about seven or eight years old. It was always on in our totally gripped by what was taking place. Through all house: my parents loved it and my grandparents loved the programmes that there have been, “Coronation it—and as they get through their 90s in residential care Street” has been able to portray heartache, pain, love together, after 70 years of marriage, they still watch and the highs and lows of life. I thank the Lord that I “Coronation Street” every Monday, Wednesday and have never experienced what happened on “Coronation Friday. It is very much a family thing that we love and Street” last week, but some of my constituents have. enjoy the nation’s favourite street. That drama and that portrayal gives a feel for what is happening in the lives of others. One of the early storylines that I can remember was the murder of Brian Tilsley in the ’80s. I may have been Of course, we have always been fortunate to have a seven at the time and I remember not fully comprehending good old Northern Ireland accent in among it all. I was the storyline—the brutality of it and how a father could just speaking to the hon. Member for Batley and Spen, be taken from a family, leaving the character we know trying to remember the actor’s name. as Nick Tilsley without a father. I remember that really struck me as a young boy. Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): Charlie Lawson. I now like to see “Coronation Street” as escapism: after a busy day in this place, I can often be found on Jim Shannon: Charlie Lawson—that is exactly who it the train back to Buckinghamshire watching “Corrie” is. His character married Liz McDonald. I just loved on my iPad. My doing so also maintains domestic harmony, hearing his accent, because when I come here to Parliament, because I must confess that I have married into an my Northern Ireland accent is very different from everybody “EastEnders” family. Often, when we have “Coronation else’s. Indeed, one of my colleagues and friends from Street” on at home, my wife finds a reason to do the Government Benches once said to me, “All right, Jim? something else. She is very appreciative that I watch it 389 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary 390

[Greg Smith] that remains not only on our televisions, but on our iPads, computers and all the other ways that we are on my iPad on the way home. I like to try to ensure that going to consume entertainment—a competitive player that bit of escapism is available to me at the end of a in that marketplace that is not disadvantaged by online busy day. programming. I urge my right hon. Friend the Minister, I have had the great honour and privilege of visiting who is far more versed in these matters than me, to the old set and the new set on a number of occasions, consider that going forward, and I know that the Public each time with my right hon. Friend the Member for Service Broadcasting Advisory Panel has now launched. Bournemouth West (Conor Burns). It is a privilege not I conclude by repeating my hearty congratulations to only to meet so many cast members and see them everybody involved in “Coronation Street” on this filming their scenes, but to see the incredible crew and momentous anniversary of 60 years on our television writers—everybody who works so hard to produce six screens. I look forward, hopefully, to visiting the set on episodes a week. In television, it is no mean feat to many more occasions, but until then, it is my iPad on a produce six episodes a week and get them ready on time Monday, Wednesday and Friday night—my escapism. I for ITV to broadcast them. wish them all a very happy birthday and 60 more years As everybody else who has spoken in this debate has to come. said, “Coronation Street”offers us that wonderful breadth— 5.9 pm not only the laugh-out-loud moments, the entertainment and the comedy gold, but those very serious storylines. Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con): I congratulate the There have been storylines, as my parliamentary neighbour hon. Member for Batley and Spen (Tracy Brabin) on and hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Rob Butler) securing the debate. I enjoyed very much hearing her said, that break taboos and raise awareness of things share some of her insights from the Street. that the country is not necessarily as aware of as it Earlier this year “The Road to Coronation Street” could or should be. One that struck home with me—before was broadcast, bringing to life the story of Tony Warren I was elected to this House, I did some work with the and his journey to bring “Coronation Street” to our UK Sepsis Trust in raising awareness of sepsis in this screens 60 years ago. He has been rightly credited as the country—was the story of Jack Webster, who lost his Dickens of the 20th century. “Coronation Street” is a leg. That really helped to raise public awareness of staple of the TV diet in our household too, faithfully sepsis, to the point that, almost around the same time consumed by my partner and more fitfully so by me. I that that the storyline was airing, we saw in virtually asked my partner which particular incidents in the show every hospital and GP surgery up and down the land over the last 30 to 40 years that we have been watching it the “Just Ask: ‘Could it be Sepsis?’” poster going up, so I should refer to in my speech, and they have both it really is very powerful. already been covered by my right hon. Friend the Member As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns): the Hilda Ogden said, the Oliver storyline in the past few days was really scene in the guesthouse and Blanche’sattempts at attending difficult to watch, and the performances, particularly, of an AA meeting for Peter Barlow. Jane Danson, and Ben Price, really During lockdown, a number of special episodes were paid proper service to ensuring a greater awareness not broadcast with a special focus on the women of only of mitochondrial disease, but of the absolute “Coronation Street”. These are strong, forthright, vocal devastation that any family who loses a child must go northern women who have given the nation such special through. As I say, it was difficult but important to characters—Ena Sharples, , Hilda Ogden, watch as part of that storyline. Bet Lynch and Annie Walker, to name but a few—along with hugely humorous comedy characters including There have been so many other storylines. I do not Percy Sugden, Norris Cole and . I am sure want to repeat previous speeches, but the wonderful that, with Roy’s enthusiasm for the railways, he would Mikey North’s portrayal of Gary Windass in the loan be keen to support the campaign in Darlington to save shark storyline over the last couple of years brought locomotion No. 1. home the brutality of what can happen if people borrow money from loan sharks. Other stories include the I want to share my favourite line from “Coronation coercive control storyline with Geoff and Yasmeen, Street”. It was a spin-off episode featuring Bet Lynch. which was so powerfully portrayed, and the David Platt She was away in Spain, and she was being chatted up in male rape storyline, not yet complete in the court. We a bar by a much younger gentleman. She turned to him have seen domestic abuse storylines, as my right hon. and said, “Go away! I’ve got ladders in my tights older Friend the Member for Bournemouth West mentioned, than you.” “Coronation Street” is always reflective of going back to Rita and Alan Bradley, and more recently, life in our nation, representative of powerful northern with Tyrone Dobbs. These are all highly serious issues voices and mindful of current issues in our society. I that “Coronation Street” has helped to raise awareness commend Granada for its fantastic contribution over of in the country, and there are so many more that I will the past 60 years to our cultural life. not repeat. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call the As we look forward to another 60 years—hopefully fount of all knowledge on “Coronation Street”, more—of “Coronation Street”, there are also questions, John Whittingdale. to be serious for a moment, about the way we look at public service broadcasting. ITV is a public service 5.12 pm broadcaster and we need to ensure that there is fairness The Minister for Media and Data (Mr John Whittingdale): for our public service broadcasters, particularly as they I am not sure I can claim that title, particularly having compete in advertising space with some online platforms listened to the contributions this evening. I would like going forward, to ensure that ITV is a strong channel to start by congratulating the hon. Member for Batley 391 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary 392 and Spen (Tracy Brabin) on obtaining the debate and Return, and a young Prince Charles visited. As the hon. managing to unite the House. Members on both sides Member for Batley and Spen and one or two others have of the House have spoken with real admiration and said, many great actors started their careers in Weatherfield; affection for what is undoubtedly the world’s greatest as well as the hon. Lady, we have the trio of theatrical soap. knights, Sir Ben Kingsley,Sir Ian McKellen and Sir Patrick I am delighted to join others in congratulating Stewart, as well as Sarah Lancashire and Joanna Lumley. “Coronation Street” and ITV on the 60th anniversary. As well as the actors, screenwriters such as Jack Rosenthal At the beginning of this year, the programme transmitted and Russell T. Davies started off in “Coronation Street”, its 10,000th episode, and the 60th anniversary is next and directors such as Paul Greengrass, Mike Newell week. It is the world’s longest running soap opera, and and all directed episodes. it is still the most popular. It also demonstrates the A number of the speakers in this debate have referred extraordinary changes that have taken place in the to the willingness of “Coronation Street” to confront media landscape over those 60 years. Today, it is still difficult issues, and we have heard a number of examples bringing in the biggest audience of any soap, but that is of that, starting with the issue of racism in the very around 7 million, whereas in the ’90s, it was regularly early episodes in the 1960s. Since then, it has addressed getting 20 million. Indeed, the departure of Hilda Ogden teenage pregnancy; domestic abuse, of both males as in the 1987 Christmas episode had an audience of well as females; and transgender issues. It has even 26.65 million. It is still getting something like a third of covered the challenge of someone having to try to find the audience share. This just shows how linear television the money to pay the TV licence and failing, with this has changed during that time,but nevertheless,“Coronation resulting in imprisonment. I am happy to tell the hon. Street” has maintained its position at No.1. Lady that almost nobody now goes to prison for a failure to pay the TV licence or meet the fine. I am sorry I cannot claim the encyclopaedic knowledge that has that in her case this came at a time when that was been displayed by so many Members, but I, too, have not true. twice visited the set of “Coronation Street”. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West Tracy Brabin: It was pressure from this place that (Conor Burns) said, the first time I did so was with changed that lawand a subsequent “Panorama”programme Margaret Thatcher in January 1990, and it was indeed that unearthed all these cases of women who were sent the case that I had to brief her on the way to the set on straight to prison for non-payment. So I would like to the characters who were stars at that time. I did indeed thank the predecessors of MPs in here who saved so go through all the various storylines, and she was many women from experiencing that. particularly keen to visit Alf Roberts’ corner shop, because of course her own father was Alfred Roberts, Mr Whittingdale: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for who ran the grocer’s shop in Grantham. She arrived on that. It has been some years since anyone was sent to set and was very upset to see that Alf Roberts’ corner prison for that and I hope it does not happen again, but shop had the sign saying, “Licensed to sell alcohol”. it was disproportionately women who suffered. She said that that would certainly have never been My hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham allowed in her father’s shop, as he would not have (Greg Smith) talked about the issue of raising awareness dreamt of selling alcohol. Having said that, she did then of sepsis. It is perhaps worth observing that there visit the Rovers Return, but she was very clear that she cannot be another street in Britain that has experienced would have a bitter lemon from behind the bar. so many disasters and so many tragedies in such a short Some 24 years later, I was lucky enough to visit the space of time. set again. This was organised by the redoubtable Jane Luca, Of course, most recently, the programme has had to of ITV, whom I suspect was responsible for the visits of wrestle with the challenges of covid, both in terms of most of my hon. Friends who have spoken of their own production and also as a storyline. Covid stopped experiences. She organised for the Select Committee on production of “Coronation Street” in March, but it was Culture, Media and Sport, which I was Chair of at the able to resume in June under the protocols to ensure time, to visit the new set. This was in 2014, after the set safety. I want to pay tribute to the ITV health and safety had been transferred to the new location in MediaCityUK team and to Magnus Brooke of ITV who played a very large in Salford. I was indeed accompanied by my right hon. part in helping to draw up those protocols so that not Friend the Member for Bournemouth West, whose just ITV Studios productions could get going again, but excitement at going to the new set I remember. We met a all the other broadcasters and film companies could, too. number of cast members, including I have been chairing the broadcasting, film and and Sam Aston. One thing that struck me was that the production working group, which has brought together set had been made slightly bigger so that two cars could representatives of all the broadcasters, film companies drive down the street and pass each other, and 54,000 and production companies to discuss how we could get cobbles had been laid, with extraordinary attention to production going again. We have now put in place very detail. Each cobble was both positioned and weathered strict protocols to ensure that production can take place in order that it remained absolutely authentic. My hon. safely.As the hon. Member for Batley and Spen mentioned, Friend the Member for Warrington South (Andy Carter) we have also put in place the £500 million film and TV referred to the extraordinary amount of ancillary restart scheme. She is absolutely right that one obstacle occupations involved and jobs created on a major TV was the difficulty in obtaining insurance of productions production—I suspect that the 54,000 cobbles employed against the possibility of their having to stop because of quite a lot of people. covid. I am glad to say that that is in place and, as a Over the years, “Coronation Street” has had a number result, productions have been resumed by most of the of famous visitors. There is a wonderful picture of major broadcasters and film companies, but it has Alfred Hitchcock peering around the door of the Rovers required some quite inventive solutions. 393 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary 394

[Mr Whittingdale] played a vital role in raising awareness and affecting attitudes on so many important public issues. As several I understand that, on “Coronation Street”, furniture people have said, I look forward to at least another is quite often placed between characters in order that 60 years. they can remain apart and socially distanced. Indeed, in a particularly inventive way, filming of romantic scenes Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am not going takes place with one actor sitting on one end of a sofa to let the moment pass without saying a few words. This looking longingly at a tennis ball suspended from the is rare and exceptional, but we are going to do it, and I ceiling and then, once that section has been filmed, the am grateful to Mr Speaker for allowing me to chair this other actor takes their place at the other end of the sofa part of the Adjournment debate. Congratulations, Tracy, and stares at a different tennis ball longingly and the there is nobody more appropriate than you to have this production crew then splice the two together so that no particular debate. I have to say, as well, that I have seen one can tell. It is very important not just, obviously, many Ministers answer Adjournment debates with speeches that production is done safely, but that a show like prepared by their own Departments, but John, you “Coronation Street” gets across the public messaging wrote every word of that speech. I was looking at it, and about the importance of maintaining social distancing that is your handwriting. I do not know if you could read and mask wearing. “Coronation Street” had the socially it, but none the less it is your handwriting. You have distanced wedding between Maria and Gary. grown up with the series, as we all have in this Chamber. I fear that it is almost certain that Weatherfield would I know that Mr Speaker would have wanted, in still be in tier 3 at the end of the national lockdown, normal circumstances, to have done a big reception at which would mean that the Rovers Return would be the end of this debate and had many of the stars past able to supply only a takeaway service, but I hope that it and present in his state rooms, but I am afraid covid has would not be long before the Rovers Return would be in meant that that cannot be. We cannot even go into the tier 2, which would, of course, allow the sale of alcohol snug in the Strangers Bar, because that is closed. None with a substantial meal such as Betty’s hotpot. the less, I am sure that at some stage we will be able to The hon. Lady also rightly referred to the importance properly mark the 60 years of “Coronation Street” in of the UK production sector and our creative industries the Palace of Westminster. I know that that Chamber and the need to ensure that every region and every would have been full of some of the stars looking down nation of the UK benefits from them, and we have been before we went on to the reception. very keen to ensure that more production is done outside I grew up in the 1960s watching “Coronation Street” London. The BBC now has a major centre in Salford at on the huge TV we had in the corner—a small screen, MediaCity. ITV is now located with the “Coronation but a big TV—all in black and white. I lay on the floor Street” set there. I have also had the pleasure of visiting and listened to the haunting melody on a Monday and the “” set in Leeds. ITV still has a presence Wednesday. My father would close the shop early in in Leeds and has now established its headquarters order to watch “Coronation Street” because he loved it in Leeds. I am absolutely clear that it is very important so much. Little did I think, watching that series, that I that we continue to encourage production to take place would be chairing a debate on “Coronation Street” in right across the UK, because it brings enormous economic the House of Commons as Deputy Speaker. benefits in terms of jobs and wealth creation. I remember once meeting Jean Alexander, the great The hon. Member for Batley and Spen and my hon. Hilda Ogden, and I could not get over how posh she Friend the Member for Buckingham referred to the sounded when she was not being Hilda Ogden. She was importance of public service broadcasting. We are living such a great actress, and that is part of the thing about through extraordinary changes in the media landscape “Coronation Street”: the great actors and actresses— that have brought huge extra opportunities for viewers yourself included, Tracy—who have performed in the in the range of content available through a number of amazing, longest running soap opera in the entire world. streaming services that did not even exist two or three In the 1960s, Bill Roache opened Swansea carnival. years ago. Now we have a choice of Amazon, Apple, My mother dragged me down to the front to watch Bill Disney and Netflix, as well as Sky and the public service in the back of an open-top car. I thought I was looking broadcasting companies. The PSBs have a tremendous at a Hollywood actor—that is the height of the fame of role in supporting the UK creative industries, and while people who starred in “Coronation Street” in those some of the streaming services are now commissioning days. Little did I think then that I would represent the content in this country, because we are so good at it Ribble Valley,in the north-west of England, in Lancashire, here, the PSBs nevertheless still represent the major or that in the village I bought a house in, Pendleton, I commissioners of UK content. Wehave recently established would be living opposite Vicky Entwistle—Janice the Public Service Broadcasting Advisory Panel to examine Battersby—who is now a personal friend. I went to her the way in which PSB needs to adapt to this new wedding in Manchester,when she married Andy Chapman. landscape, but I am absolutely clear that there is still a Lots of stars of “Coronation Street” were there. role for public service broadcasting, and we will be Bill Roache, too, has become a personal friend of looking at the issues and challenges facing public service mine over the years—a wonderful man. He has helped broadcasters, such as the issue of prominence that my me out in a couple of general election campaigns, as he hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham raised. has a number of people who became MPs. Bill is the I would like to conclude by joining all those who have longest-serving actor in the longest-serving soap. What spoken in paying tribute to a show that has not only an amazing accolade! John, you mentioned Jane Luca, brought pleasure and entertainment to millions of people and she helped me to get on to the set of “Coronation over the course of the last 60 years, not just in the UK Street” as well. We are all grateful for the fantastic but in many other countries around the world, but also facilitation that Jane has given many people over the period. 395 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary2 DECEMBER 2020 Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary 396

Another thing that has come out about “Coronation It is the thing that got us there to watch the show and, Street” is the humour—yes, the drama, and the fact that even at the point of highest drama, there would be it treat difficult subjects, but it is one of the most humorous silence in our living rooms as we listened to that closing things on TV, more than some of the other soaps on at melody. So thank you, “Corrie”, for everything that you the moment, where you feel a bit depressed at the end. With have done over the past 60 years. “Coronation Street”, humour runs through the entire series, the entire 60 years of its production. For me, as Question put and agreed to. far as broadcasting is concerned, you can stick your “Crowns”; I am going to stick with “Corrie”, as I have for the past 60 years, and as I am sure we all will in the future. It is a real shame that at the end of this debate, we 5.31 pm cannot have that haunting melody of “Coronation Street” House adjourned. playing, which I am sure we are all thinking about now. 397 2 DECEMBER 2020 Deferred Division 398

Deferred Division Francois, rh Mr Mark Jones, Fay Frazer, Lucy Jones, Mr Marcus EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (FOOD) Freeman, George Jupp, Simon That the draft Veterinary Medicines and Residues (Amendment) Freer, Mike Kawczynski, Daniel (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on Fuller, Richard Kearns, Alicia 2 November, be approved. Fysh, Mr Marcus Keegan, Gillian The House divided: Ayes 362, Noes 202. Gale, rh Sir Roger Knight, rh Sir Greg Garnier, Mark Knight, Julian Division No. 175] Ghani, Ms Nusrat Kruger, Danny Gibb, rh Nick Kwarteng, rh Kwasi AYES Gibson, Peter Lamont, John Adams, Nigel Chishti, Rehman Gideon, Jo Largan, Robert Afolami, Bim Churchill, Jo Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Latham, Mrs Pauline Ahmad Khan, Imran Clark, rh Greg Girvan, Paul Leadsom, rh Andrea Aiken, Nickie Clarke, Mr Simon Glen, John Leigh, rh Sir Edward Aldous, Peter Clarke, Theo Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Levy, Ian Allan, Lucy Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gove, rh Michael Lewer, Andrew Amess, Sir David Clarkson, Chris Graham, Richard Lewis, rh Brandon Anderson, Lee Cleverly, rh James Grant, Mrs Helen Lewis, rh Dr Julian Anderson, Stuart Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grayling, rh Chris Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Andrew, Stuart Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Green, Chris Lockhart, Carla Ansell, Caroline Colburn, Elliot Green, rh Damian Loder, Chris Argar, Edward Collins, Damian Griffith, Andrew Logan, Mark Atherton, Sarah Costa, Alberto Griffiths, Kate Longhi, Marco Atkins, Victoria Courts, Robert Grundy, James Lopez, Julia Bacon, Gareth Coutinho, Claire Gullis, Jonathan Lopresti, Jack Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Halfon, rh Robert Bacon, Mr Richard Lord, Mr Jonathan Badenoch, Kemi Crabb, rh Stephen Hall, Luke Loughton, Tim Bailey, Shaun Crosbie, Virginia Hammond, Stephen Mackinlay, Craig Baillie, Siobhan Crouch, Tracey Hancock, rh Matt Mackrory, Cherilyn Baker, Duncan Daly, James Hands, rh Greg Baker, Mr Steve Davies, David T. C. Harper, rh Mr Mark Maclean, Rachel Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Gareth Harris, Rebecca Mak, Alan Barclay, rh Steve Davies, Dr James Harrison, Trudy Malthouse, Kit Baron, Mr John Davies, Mims Hart, Sally-Ann Mangnall, Anthony Baynes, Simon Davies, Philip Hart, rh Simon Mann, Scott Bell, Aaron Davis, rh Mr David Hayes, rh Sir John Marson, Julie Benton, Scott Davison, Dehenna Heald, rh Sir Oliver May, rh Mrs Theresa Beresford, Sir Paul Dinenage, Caroline Heappey, James Mayhew, Jerome Berry, rh Jake Dines, Miss Sarah Heaton-Harris, Chris Maynard, Paul Bhatti, Saqib Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Henderson, Gordon McCartney, Jason Blackman, Bob Docherty, Leo Henry, Darren McVey, rh Esther Blunt, Crispin Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Higginbotham, Antony Menzies, Mark Bone, Mr Peter Donelan, Michelle Hinds, rh Damian Mercer, Johnny Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorries, Ms Nadine Hoare, Simon Merriman, Huw Bowie, Andrew Double, Steve Holden, Mr Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Bradley, Ben Dowden, rh Oliver Hollinrake, Kevin Millar, Robin Bradley, rh Karen Doyle-Price, Jackie Hollobone, Mr Philip Miller, rh Mrs Maria Brady, Sir Graham Drax, Richard Holloway, Adam Milling, rh Amanda Braverman, rh Suella Drummond, Mrs Flick Holmes, Paul Mills, Nigel Brereton, Jack Duddridge, James Howell, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Duguid, David Howell, Paul Mohindra, Mr Gagan Brine, Steve Dunne, rh Philip Huddleston, Nigel Moore, Damien Bristow, Paul Eastwood, Mark Hudson, Dr Neil Moore, Robbie Britcliffe, Sara Edwards, Ruth Hughes, Eddie Mordaunt, rh Penny Brokenshire, rh James Ellis, rh Michael Hunt, Jane Morris, Anne Marie Browne, Anthony Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Hunt, rh Jeremy Morris, David Bruce, Fiona Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Hunt, Tom Morris, James Buchan, Felicity Eustice, rh George Jack, rh Mr Alister Morrissey, Joy Buckland, rh Robert Evans, Dr Luke Javid, rh Sajid Morton, Wendy Burghart, Alex Evennett, rh Sir David Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mumby-Croft, Holly Burns, rh Conor Everitt, Ben Jenkin, Sir Bernard Mundell, rh David Butler, Rob Fabricant, Michael Jenkinson, Mark Murray, Mrs Sheryll Cairns, rh Alun Farris, Laura Jenkyns, Andrea Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Campbell, Mr Gregory Fell, Simon Jenrick, rh Robert Neill, Sir Robert Carter, Andy Fletcher, Katherine Johnson, rh Boris Nici, Lia Cartlidge, James Fletcher, Mark Johnson, Dr Caroline Nokes, rh Caroline Cash, Sir William Fletcher, Nick Johnson, Gareth Norman, rh Jesse Cates, Miriam Ford, Vicky Johnston, David O’Brien, Neil Caulfield, Maria Foster, Kevin Jones, Andrew Offord, Dr Matthew Chalk, Alex Fox, rh Dr Liam Jones, rh Mr David Opperman, Guy 399 Deferred Division 2 DECEMBER 2020 Deferred Division 400

Paisley, Ian Stafford, Alexander Cooper, rh Yvette Lake, Ben Parish, Neil Stephenson, Andrew Corbyn, rh Jeremy Lammy, rh Mr David Patel, rh Priti Stevenson, Jane Coyle, Neil Lavery, Ian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stevenson, John Creasy, Stella Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Pawsey, Mark Stewart, Bob Cruddas, Jon Lewis, Clive Penning, rh Sir Mike Stewart, Iain Cryer, John Lloyd, Tony Penrose, John Streeter, Sir Gary Cummins, Judith Long Bailey, Rebecca Percy, Andrew Stride, rh Mel Cunningham, Alex Lucas, Caroline Philp, Chris Stuart, Graham Daby, Janet Lynch, Holly Pincher, rh Christopher Sturdy, Julian David, Wayne Madders, Justin Poulter, Dr Dan Sunderland, James Davies, Geraint Mahmood, Mr Khalid Pow, Rebecca Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Davies-Jones, Alex Mahmood, Shabana Prentis, Victoria Syms, Sir Robert De Cordova, Marsha Malhotra, Seema Pritchard, Mark Thomas, Derek Debbonaire, Thangam Maskell, Rachael Pursglove, Tom Throup, Maggie Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Matheson, Christian Quin, Jeremy Timpson, Edward Dodds, Anneliese McCarthy, Kerry Quince, Will Tolhurst, Kelly Doughty, Stephen McDonald, Andy Raab, rh Dominic Tomlinson, Justin Dowd, Peter McDonnell, rh John Randall, Tom Tomlinson, Michael Dromey, Jack McFadden, rh Mr Pat Redwood, rh John Tracey, Craig Duffield, Rosie McGinn, Conor Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Eagle, Ms Angela McGovern, Alison Richards, Nicola Trott, Laura Eagle, Maria McKinnell, Catherine Richardson, Angela Truss, rh Elizabeth Edwards, Jonathan McMahon, Jim Roberts, Rob Tugendhat, , Julie McMorrin, Anna Robertson, Mr Laurence Vara, Mr Shailesh Elmore, Chris McPartland, Stephen Robinson, Gavin Vickers, Martin Eshalomi, Florence Mearns, Ian Robinson, Mary Vickers, Matt Esterson, Bill Miliband, rh Edward Rosindell, Andrew Villiers, rh Theresa Evans, Chris Mishra, Navendu Ross, Douglas Wakeford, Christian Fletcher, Colleen Morden, Jessica Rowley, Lee Walker, Sir Charles Fovargue, Yvonne Morgan, Stephen Russell, Dean Walker, Mr Robin Foxcroft, Vicky Morris, Grahame Rutley, David Wallace, rh Mr Ben Foy, Mary Kelly Murray, Ian Sambrook, Gary Warburton, David Furniss, Gill Murray, James Saxby, Selaine Warman, Matt Gill, Preet Kaur Nandy, Lisa Scully, Paul Watling, Giles Glindon, Mary Nichols, Charlotte Seely, Bob Webb, Suzanne Green, Kate Norris, Alex Selous, Andrew Whately, Helen Greenwood, Lilian Onwurah, Chi Shannon, Jim Wheeler, Mrs Heather Greenwood, Margaret Oppong-Asare, Abena Shapps, rh Grant Griffith, Nia Osamor, Kate Whittaker, Craig Sharma, rh Alok Gwynne, Andrew Osborne, Kate Whittingdale, rh Mr John Shelbrooke, rh Alec Haigh, Louise Owatemi, Taiwo Wiggin, Bill Simmonds, David Hamilton, Fabian Owen, Sarah Wild, James Skidmore, rh Chris Hanna, , Stephanie Smith, Chloe Williams, Craig Hardy, Emma Pennycook, Matthew Smith, Greg Williamson, rh Gavin Harman, rh Ms Harriet Perkins, Mr Toby Smith, Henry Wilson, rh Sammy Harris, Carolyn Phillips, Jess Smith, rh Julian Wood, Mike Hayes, Helen Pollard, Luke Smith, Royston Wragg, Mr William Healey, rh John Powell, Lucy Solloway, Amanda Wright, rh Jeremy Hendrick, Sir Mark Qureshi, Yasmin Spencer, Dr Ben Young, Jacob Hill, Mike Rayner, Angela Spencer, rh Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Hillier, Meg Reed, Steve Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Rees, Christina NOES Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reeves, Ellie Hollern, Kate Reeves, Rachel Abbott, rh Ms Diane Brabin, Tracy Hopkins, Rachel Reynolds, Jonathan Abrahams, Debbie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Howarth, rh Sir George Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Ali, Rushanara Brennan, Kevin Huq, Dr Rupa Rimmer, Ms Marie Ali, Tahir Brown, Ms Lyn Hussain, Imran Rodda, Matt Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Jarvis, Dan Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Bryant, Chris Johnson, Dame Diana Saville Roberts, rh Liz Amesbury, Mike Buck, Ms Karen Johnson, Kim Shah, Naz Anderson, Fleur Burgon, Richard Jones, Darren Sharma, Mr Virendra Antoniazzi, Tonia Butler, Dawn Jones, Gerald Sheerman, Mr Barry Ashworth, Jonathan Byrne, Ian Jones, rh Mr Kevan Siddiq, Tulip Barker, Paula Byrne, rh Liam Jones, Ruth Slaughter, Andy Beckett, rh Margaret Cadbury, , Sarah Smith, Cat Campbell, rh Sir Alan Kane, Mike Smith, Jeff Begum, Apsana Carden, Dan Keeley, Barbara Smith, Nick Benn, rh Hilary Champion, Sarah Kendall, Liz Smyth, Karin Betts, Mr Clive Charalambous, Bambos Khan, Afzal Sobel, Alex Blake, Olivia Clark, Feryal Kinnock, Stephen Spellar, rh John Blomfield, Paul Cooper, Rosie Kyle, Peter Starmer, rh Keir 401 Deferred Division 2 DECEMBER 2020 Deferred Division 402

Stevens, Jo Timms, rh Stephen Whitley, Mick Winter, Beth Streeting, Wes Trickett, Jon Whittome, Nadia Yasin, Mohammad Stringer, Graham Turner, Karl Williams, Hywel Zeichner, Daniel Sultana, Zarah Twigg, Derek Tami, rh Mark Vaz, rh Valerie Question accordingly agreed to. Tarry, Sam Webbe, Claudia Thomas, Gareth West, Catherine Below is the list of Members currently certified as Thomas-Symonds, Nick Western, Matt eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated Thornberry, rh Emily Whitehead, Dr Alan as their proxy. 403 2 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 404

Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

The following is the list of Members currently certified Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated Suella Braverman (Fareham) (Con) Stuart Andrew as their proxy: Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West ) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) Stuart Andrew Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy (Con) Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stoke Newington) (Lab) Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Patrick Grady (Oldham East and Chris Elmore Leith) (SNP) Saddleworth) (Lab) James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Stuart Andrew Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sidcup) (Con) Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudon) Patrick Grady (SNP) Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Stuart Andrew Westminster) (Con) Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) Chris Elmore Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Tahir Ali (, Hall Green) (Lab) Chris Elmore Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab) Chris Elmore Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con) Mark Spencer Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) Chris Elmore (Lab) Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab) Chris Elmore Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Weaver Vale) (Lab) Chris Elmore Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) Stuart Andrew Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab) Chris Elmore Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South Stuart Andrew Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con) Stuart Andrew West) (Con) Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab) Chris Elmore Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab) Chris Elmore Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) Chris Elmore Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) Chris Elmore Victoria Atkins (Louth and Horncastle) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) Patrick Grady Kemi Badenoch (Saffron Walden) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Patrick Grady Steve Barclay (North East Stuart Andrew Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP) Cambridgeshire) (Con) Mr Gregory Campbell (East Gavin Robinson Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP) Patrick Grady Londonderry) (DUP) (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab) Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) Stuart Andrew James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con) Stuart Andrew Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stuart Andrew Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stocksbridge) (Con) Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and Patrick Grady Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew West Fife) (SNP) Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) Stuart Andrew Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) Patrick Grady (Con) (SNP) Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Stuart Andrew Saqib Bhatti (Meriden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rainham) (Con) Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire Patrick Grady Jo Churchill (Bury St Edmunds) (Con) Stuart Andrew South) (SNP) Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) Patrick Grady Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South Stuart Andrew (SNP) and East Cleveland) (Con) Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) Stuart Andrew Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP) Patrick Grady Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con) Stuart Andrew Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab) Chris Elmore Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) Stuart Andrew Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) Stuart Andrew James Cleverly (Braintree) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con) Stuart Andrew Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Patrick Grady Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) Stuart Andrew Bellshill) (SNP) (Con) Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD) Wendy op) Chamberlain 405 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote2 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 406

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) Stuart Andrew Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) Stuart Andrew Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP) Patrick Grady Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con) Stuart Andrew Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) Stuart Andrew Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore (Con) op) Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton Patrick Grady (Sefton Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore East) (SNP) George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) Stuart Andrew Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op) Chris Elmore Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) Rebecca Harris Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Stuart Andrew Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Rainham) Chris Elmore Crayford) (Con) (Lab) Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab) Chris Elmore Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) Wendy Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Chamberlain Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD) Wendy Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) Patrick Grady Chamberlain (SNP) Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Jonathan op) Hamilton West) (Ind) Edwards Mims Davies (Mid Sussex) (Con) Stuart Andrew Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP) Patrick Grady Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Stuart Andrew Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Howden) (Con) Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con) Stuart Andrew Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Patrick Grady (Makerfield) (Lab) Chris Elmore Falkirk) (SNP) Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con) Stuart Andrew Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) Chris Elmore Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) Rachel Hopkins (Lab) Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) Chris Elmore Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Lab) Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Stuart Andrew Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con) Stuart Andrew Wickford) (Con) Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) Stuart Andrew Lucy Frazer (South East Cambridgeshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Patrick Grady George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Stuart Andrew Michelle Donelan (Chippenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP) Patrick Grady Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con) Stuart Andrew Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Patrick Grady Cumnock) (SNP) Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) Stuart Andrew Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Stuart Andrew (Con) Littlehampton) (Con) Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) Stuart Andrew Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Patrick Grady (Con) Arran) (SNP) (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con) Stuart Andrew Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) (Con) Stuart Andrew Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) Chris Elmore Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab/Co-op) Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) Chris Elmore Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Stuart Andrew (Lab) Amersham) (Con) Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) Stuart Andrew Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP) Sir Jeffrey M. (Con) Donaldson James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend Stuart Andrew John Glen (Salisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew East) (Con) Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab) Chris Elmore Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mr Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Stuart Andrew Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Stuart Andrew Whitby) (Con) Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab) Chris Elmore Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) (Con) Stuart Andrew Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) Chris Elmore Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Stuart Andrew (Lab) Weald) (Con) Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP) Patrick Grady Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) Patrick Grady Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Patrick Grady 407 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote2 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 408

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) Chris Elmore Damian Green (Ashford) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Stretford and Urmston) Chris Elmore Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Lab) Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Galloway) Stuart Andrew Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD) Wendy Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Chamberlain Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Stuart Andrew Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Downs) (Con) Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Stuart Andrew Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Hampshire) (Con) James Grundy (Leigh) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) Stuart Andrew Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) Chris Elmore Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Boris Johnson (Uxbridge and South Stuart Andrew Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) Rebecca Harris Ruislip) (Con) Luke Hall (Thornbury and Yate) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Stuart Andrew Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) Chris Elmore Hykeham) (Con) (Lab) Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Hull North) (Lab) Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) Ben Lake Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Patrick Grady Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Chris Elmore Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Rhymney) (Lab) Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West Chris Elmore Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab) Chris Elmore and Hessle) (Lab) Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Chris Elmore (Wythenshawe and Sale East) Chris Elmore Peckham) (Lab) (Lab) Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Stuart Andrew Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Stuart Andrew Atcham) (Con) Pembrokeshire) (Con) Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Stuart Andrew Deepings) (Con) Gillian Keegan () (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew (Worsley and Eccles Chris Elmore Hertfordshire) (Con) South) (Lab) James Heappey (Wells) (Con) Stuart Andrew Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con) Stuart Andrew Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab) Chris Elmore Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Stuart Andrew Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sheppey) (Con) Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op) Chris Elmore Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con) Stuart Andrew Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch Patrick Grady Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab) Chris Elmore and Strathspey) (SNP) Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh Stuart Andrew Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) Stuart Andrew and Selkirk) (Con) Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD) Wendy Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chamberlain Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) Mr William Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Wragg Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Chris Elmore Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Sunderland West) (Lab) Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) Patrick Grady Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab) Chris Elmore Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) Stuart Andrew Andrea Leadsom (South Stuart Andrew (Con) Northamptonshire) (Con) Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con) Maria Caulfield Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir (Knowsley) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Howell (Henley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) Stuart Andrew (Con) Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) Stuart Andrew (Con) Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) Stuart Andrew Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and Stuart Andrew (Con) West Somerset) (Con) Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP) Patrick Grady Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore 409 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote2 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 410

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP) Sir Jeffrey Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con) Stuart Andrew Donaldson Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Stockport) (Lab) Kim Johnson (Lab) Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) Stuart Andrew Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster) Stuart Andrew Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) Patrick Grady (Con) Layla Moran (Oxford West and Wendy Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) Stuart Andrew Abingdon) (LD) Chamberlain (Con) Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con) Stuart Andrew Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) Mark Spencer Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) (Green) Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) Stuart Andrew Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) Patrick Grady David Morris (Morecambe and Stuart Andrew Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Lunesdale) (Con) Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con) Stuart Andrew Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab) Chris Elmore Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) Stuart Andrew Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow Patrick Grady (Con) South) (SNP) Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Patrick Grady David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale Stuart Andrew Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) and Tweeddale) (Con) John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South Chris Elmore op) East) (Lab) Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Stuart Andrew Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Cornwall) (Con) Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) Stuart Andrew Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Chris Elmore (Con) Tyne North) (Lab) (Wigan) (Lab) Chris Elmore Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) Stuart Andrew Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Patrick Grady Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) Patrick Grady Renfrewshire North) (SNP) (SNP) Lia Nici (Great Grimsby) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Nicolson (Ochil and South Patrick Grady Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Chris Elmore Perthshire) (SNP) Royton) (Lab) Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Stuart Andrew Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Southampton North) (Con) John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP) Patrick Grady Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Stuart Andrew Herefordshire) (Con) Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan Patrick Grady an Iar) (SNP) Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Co-op) Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con) Stuart Andrew Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Chris Elmore Barr) (Lab) Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Patrick Grady Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con) Rebecca Harris Ladywood) (Lab) Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alan Mak (Havant) (Con) Stuart Andrew Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Chris Elmore Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) Stuart Andrew Thamesmead) (Lab) (Con) Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) Rachel Hopkins Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) Stuart Andrew Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP) Patrick Grady (Con) Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) Chris Elmore Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP) Sammy Wilson Johnny Mercer (Plymouth, Moor View) Stuart Andrew Priti Patel (Witham) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) Stuart Andrew Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and Stuart Andrew Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con) Stuart Andrew East Thurrock) (Con) Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) Stuart Andrew Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con) Stuart Andrew 411 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote2 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 412

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab) Chris Elmore Royston Smith (Southampton, Itchen) Stuart Andrew Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and Peter Aldous Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab) Chris Elmore North Ipswich) (Con) Amanda Solloway (Derby North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Stuart Andrew (Manchester Central) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Weybridge) (Con) Co-op) Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Victoria Prentis (Banbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) Chris Elmore Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) Patrick Grady (SNP) Will Quince (Colchester) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Bolton South East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North Stuart Andrew (Ashton-under-Lyne) Chris Elmore East) (Con) (Lab) John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con) Stuart Andrew Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co-op) Chris Elmore Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab) Chris Elmore Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) Chris Elmore (Lab) Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Wendy Easter Ross) (LD) Chamberlain Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sir Gary Streeter (South West Devon) Stuart Andrew Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ms (St Helens South and Chris Elmore Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Whiston) (Lab) Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) Stuart Andrew Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) Stuart Andrew Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Coventry South) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP) Patrick Grady Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con) Stuart Andrew Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con) Stuart Andrew Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Chris Elmore Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op) Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore op) Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Stuart Andrew Northfield) (Lab) (Islington South and Chris Elmore Finsbury) (Lab) Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) Ben Lake Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kelly Tolhurst (Rochester and Strood) Stuart Andrew Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con) Stuart Andrew Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) Rebecca Harris Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon- Stuart Andrew Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Tweed) (Con) Grant Shapps (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con) Stuart Andrew Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) Chris Elmore Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) Stuart Andrew Co-op) (Con) Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) Stuart Andrew Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP) Patrick Grady Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Stuart Andrew Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) Chris Elmore Cambridgeshire) (Con) (Lab) Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con) Stuart Andrew David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood Stuart Andrew Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con) Stuart Andrew and Pinner) (Con) Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston Stuart Andrew Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con) Stuart Andrew North) Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab) Chris Elmore Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) Stuart Andrew Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) Patrick Grady (Con) (Lancaster and Fleetwood) Chris Elmore Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Chris Elmore Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab) Chris Elmore Green) (Lab) 413 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote2 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 414

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) Stuart Andrew Gavin Williamson (Montgomeryshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) Stuart Andrew Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD) Wendy (Con) Chamberlain Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) Patrick Grady Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab) Rachel Hopkins (SNP) Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) Patrick Grady Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) John Whittingdale (Malden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab) Chris Elmore Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con) Stuart Andrew Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) Stuart Andrew (Con) Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Ben Lake 131WH 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 132WH Diagnosis and Treatment Government and senior NHS managers keep saying Westminster Hall that services are back to normal levels and that good progress is being made on the backlog, but all the Wednesday 2 December 2020 evidence from frontline staff provides a clear picture that it is just not true to say that we are back to normal. [ESTHER MCVEY in the Chair] Even then, the simple fact remains that, with the scale of the backlog, “back to normal” is nowhere near good Covid-19: Access to Cancer Diagnosis enough anyway. Even if services were back to pre-covid and Treatment levels—we contend that they are not—it would be mathematically impossible to have caught up. Why? 9.30 am Because the flow of patients was all but stopped for several months, but cancer, of course, did not take a Esther McVey (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members break. It kept striking people at the same rate it always that there have been some changes to the normal practice does, so the only way we can catch up with cancer is to in order to support the new call list system. Members have services super-boosted to levels in excess of pre-covid should sanitise their microphones and then remove and capacity. We estimate that cancer services need to be dispose of the material used for that when they leave the running at something like 120% of pre-covid levels for room. Members are asked to observe the one-way system two solid years to catch up. That view is shared by other and should speak only from the horseshoe. Members keen observers of this problem, such as the chair of the may speak only if they are on the call list. That applies Health and Social Care Committee, the right hon. even if the debate is undersubscribed. Members may Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt). But the not join the debate if they are not on the call list. This is brutal reality is that services are not yet even at their a slight change, but I want to remind Members that pre-covid capacity. In September, treatment was at only they must arrive for the start of the debates in Westminster 94.5% capacity,and as long as the treatment rate continues Hall, although they are not expected to remain for the to be below 2019 levels, the cancer backlog will continue winding-up speeches. Members may wish to stay beyond to grow. their speech, but they should be aware that doing so may prevent other Members from speaking if it is a full We are hearing from frontline staff that services were debate. not yet back to normal before the recent lockdown in November. One cancer centre has told us that during 9.31 am that lockdown, referrals have yet again “fallen off a cliff”. Analysis from Macmillan Cancer Support, using Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I beg the Government’s own monthly cancer waiting times to move, data, shows that during the pandemic around 1,000 fewer That this House has considered access to cancer diagnosis and people in south Cumbria and Lancashire will have had treatment during the covid-19 outbreak. their first cancer treatment, compared with the same It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, period last year—a 17% drop—which suggests we are Ms McVey. I am grateful to have the opportunity to missing one in six people with cancer. There is no raise this issue. Of the many vital issues discussed in this serious doubt about what is happening to those missing place in recent months, the impact of covid-19 on people. Their cancers will have grown and spread and, cancer treatment must be at the very top of the list for in many cases, become incurable by the time they are importance to families right across the United Kingdom. identified and by the time, if at all, they are treated. I want to start by saying very clearly that there is a Across the country we hear of patients presenting with national cancer crisis—a backlog that we need to catch more advanced cancers due to not being seen early up with urgently—so I will be concluding my speech by enough. Some staff tell us that they have never seen asking the Minister to meet me and the clinical advisers such advanced cases. who support the Catch Up With Cancer campaign as a The all-party parliamentary group on radiotherapy, matter of priority in the coming days. like all the all-party groups on cancer, is strenuous in its Since the start of the pandemic, organisations, charities, insistence on a consensual and collegiate approach, and frontline NHS staff and MPs have been urging the sees Ministers, especially the Minister here today, as Government to invest in cancer services to prevent a partners and not opponents. I am grateful to the Minister national tragedy in cancer. Indeed, the experts we work for her courtesy, her willingness to engage and her very with warned at the start of the pandemic that tens of clear concern. I am also grateful to all Members here thousands of people were set to die as a result of and to those who are not present but who dearly wanted cancellations, delays and disruptions to their treatment. to be. Many are absent because this Chamber is not yet Sadly, it looks as though those warnings have been enabled for virtual participation. They include the hon. proved right, although for thousands of families it is Members for North Devon (Selaine Saxby), for West not yet too late for us to catch up with cancer. Lancashire (), for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), I have two main points to address. Both relate in large for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), for Liverpool, Riverside part to the covid-induced backlog and the apparent (Kim Johnson) and for Bootle (Peter Dowd). failure to make addressing it a central feature of the Our collective view is that we need urgent action to Chancellor of the Exchequer’s comprehensive spending catch up with cancer. I mentioned the figures for my review just last week. The first point I would like to own area, but Macmillan estimates that across England address today is the scale of the cancer backlog itself. as a whole there are a terrifying 50,000 missing diagnoses. All the feedback from the frontline and from our expert Clinicians report that more patients are now coming clinical advisers strongly suggests that the Government through needing palliative rather than curative care—people and NHS management are repeatedly failing to grasp who could have survived who are now on end-of-life the true size and scale and danger of the backlog. The pathways and are simply being treated to alleviate the pain. 133WH 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 134WH Diagnosis and Treatment Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): That is a really more people die, there are fewer people in the system. important point. How do we quantify the scale of the The target does not take into account the tens of backlog to enable us to have an action plan to address thousands of undiagnosed patients who may be going it? Specialists say that whereas the ratio is currently about their daily life completely unaware that they are 50:50 in terms of the therapeutic application of radiotherapy living with cancer. for treatable cancers and therapeutic palliative care, last I fear that the Government hugely underestimate the year it was 70% treatable and 30% palliative. Do we not cancer backlog, and the consequence will be thousands need the release of the datasets to quantify that in an of unnecessary deaths and lost life years. An article last accurate way? month in The BMJ estimated that there will be 60,000 lost years of life as a result. Does the Minister recognise the Tim Farron: I am extremely grateful to the hon. significant fall in people receiving cancer treatment this Gentleman for making a very important point. I have year compared with 2019? Like me, is she worried that heard the same reports from the frontline that treatment this will mean there are thousands of people out there would normally be 70:30 curative to palliative and that with undiagnosed cancer who have yet to come forward? now it is 50:50. That is a blindingly obvious consequence I move on now to my second point, which relates to of the fact that when we catch cancer, we catch it the Chancellor’s recent comprehensive spending review, too late. which was a pivotal opportunity to signal that the I have a request of the Department, which we have Government, the Department of Health and Social made before, including in face-to-face meetings with the Care, the Chancellor and NHS leaders understood the Secretary of State. I want the Department of Health need for investment in the techniques and treatment and Social Care team responsible to sit down with the required to quickly build capacity in order to clear the frontline experts—we can provide them this afternoon—and cancer backlog and ensure a resilient service going go through the evidence of the backlog. There is no way forward—to build the capacity that is vitally needed if of tackling the problem if the NHS management and we are to make sure cancer patients are not the collateral the Department are not cognisant of it and prepared to damage of covid. Far from seizing that pivotal opportunity, listen to the people working their socks off in cancer the Government appear to have turned it into a missed units all over the United Kingdom. opportunity. As far as we can tell, there is no boost to I want to make another important point. Whoever cancer treatments in the comprehensive spending review. was in power during this time would have been handed There is no increase in capacity to catch up with cancer, the same challenge and would have made many mistakes. and there is no plan to do what is needed to save The Government have rightly sought to control the thousands of cancer patients’ lives. virus so that we can protect the NHS and save lives. The The Action Radiotherapy charity estimates that the lives that we seek to save are those at risk from not just true cancer backlog could be as high as 100,000 patients. covid but other illnesses, including, of course, cancer. It supports the estimate of the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee that it would take cancer services We as a country have stood together and defended working at over 120% pre-covid capacity two years just our NHS so that it has the ability to fight cancer in the to catch up. Members of all political persuasions, working midst of a pandemic, which is what every clinician is with clinicians and experts who are desperate to make a desperate to do. The great success of this year, for which difference, are clear about how the Government could Ministers should rightly be proud, is that our NHS has provide the boost required to catch up with cancer and not collapsed and did not fall over. Our doctors, nurses, to save thousands of lives. The answer is not to exhort paramedics and clinicians of every sort have saved lives, our heroic frontline staff to work harder—they continue defeated the odds and kept our NHS on its feet so that to be inspirational, straining every sinew. It is not to it can fight cancer, and yet a failure at senior levels of carry on doing what we have always done, but just NHS England and in Government to recognise the doing it a little better. It requires some new thinking. It scale and nature of the cancer backlog means that requires taking an axe to some of the internal bureaucracy people are dying today who did not need to die. that has held back some treatments, such as radiotherapy. We have terminal diagnoses for cancers that could Crucially,it requires investment, but that critical investment have been treatable among my constituents and yours, seems to be missing from the comprehensive spending Ms McVey—among all our constituents. Their lives review. That is a missed opportunity on a massive scale, have been cut short when earlier, more urgent and more and I hope it is not too late to make a change. ambitious action from our leaders could have saved I have to say that there has been a collective gasp of them. What troubles me so much is that we hear statements disbelief across the oncology and radiotherapy sector, from some in senior management in the NHS, and from as it appears—unless we are all mistaken—that there is within the Department, that suggest they do not quite not even an explicit mention of radiotherapy in the get the scale of the backlog problem. They freely admit spending review, never mind of the investment in it. that they do not know how big the backlog is. On more Radiotherapy is covid-safe and is required by over than one occasion, I have heard the Secretary of State 50% of cancer patients. It already plays a significant seek to reassure us by saying that progress has been role in 40% of cancer cures and is able, where clinically made on recovering the 62-day wait. If people understand appropriate, to substitute for chemotherapy and surgery what is happening, however, that does not reassure at times when they are deemed not to be appropriate them. It does the exact opposite: it sends a shiver down because of the fact that we are in a pandemic. It is their spine—it confirms the problem. hugely cost-effective: it cures patients for as little as Surely Ministers know that the 62-day waiting time £5,000 to £7,000 apiece. target for treatment does not give a complete snapshot The reality is that radiotherapy has huge untapped of the situation, because it captures only patients who potential to do even more to clear the backlog. For are already in the system. I am sorry to be brutal, but as many reasons, however, it has been actively restricted 135WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 136WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment and held back for years. Although radiotherapy treats years lost to cancer because of the impact of the covid 50% of cancer patients, it receives just 5% of the annual crisis. Cancer survival rates have been pushed back to cancer budget—something for which recent Governments where they were more than a decade ago. of all parties must share the blame. That is why the UK I know that the Minister cares. She is a good person is massively behind on technology that could empower seeking to do a good job. I hope that she will forgive me the workforce to do more. Pre-pandemic it was estimated for being direct today, but thousands of people could that as many as 24,000 patients were missing access to have their lives lengthened or saved, and their families radiotherapy treatment each year. It is worse now. could be spared unspeakable grief, if we acted urgently Faced with the current crisis,the radiotherapy community to catch up with cancer. I conclude by repeating my plea came together to put together a transformation plan for in the strongest possible terms. Will the Minister meet consideration at the comprehensive spending review. me and, most importantly, the expert clinicians who The six-point plan would deliver a super-boost to cancer advise the Catch Up With Cancer campaign, in the next services to clear the backlog, with innovative technology few days so that we can turn the tide on the crisis? and digital solutions to deploy linear accelerators at the Esther McVey (in the Chair): Just for the ease of many covid-clean hospital sites in England, such as the colleagues, I will say that I am looking to call the Westmorland General Hospital in my constituency, that Front-Bench speakers at 10.30 am, so divide the time are perfectly suited to adding satellite capacity to their among yourselves. main cancer units while protecting patients and clinicians from covid infection risk. The plan would also see an 9.49 pm immediate boost in precision radiotherapy at existing cancer units, upgrading linear accelerators to perform Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): Thank you, curative treatment over shorter periods. However, on Ms McVey. I will do a quick calculation. our reading of the spending review, that appears to Esther McVey (in the Chair): You have quite a few have been totally ignored. In fact, as far as we can tell, minutes. there is no clear plan of investment in cancer treatment capacity at all. Andy Carter: It is a pleasure to serve under your While the investment in diagnostic machines over chairmanship, and I am delighted to follow the hon. 10 years is truly welcomed by all of us here, it is not Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron). enough. According to Freedom of Information Act I congratulate him on securing this important debate, requests carried out by the Radiotherapy4Life campaign, and pay tribute to his excellent opening speech. I agree more than half of NHS trusts are using radiotherapy with many of the points that he made. The issue is machines that are more than 10 years old. To replace incredibly important for families up and down the UK, only the machines that deliver diagnostics, or radiology, and I am delighted to be able to join him in speaking in and not those that actually cure people—the radiotherapy the debate. machines—is a baffling decision, to me and, more I want to thank those who work in oncology in importantly, the experts. Patients and the public will be Warrington—the consultants, nurses, radiographers and, shocked to learn that immediate solutions presented by of course, GPs who are right at the frontline as the expert professionals to the covid-induced cancer crisis primary gateway into cancer services. Their work, and are being overlooked. that of those in their sector across the UK, has continued through the pandemic. Every week that we delay giving an immediate boost Early on, I spoke to the chief executive of Warrington to cancer services—capacity, diagnostics and treatments hospital, Professor Simon Constable, who outlined the —we increase the risk of losing cancer patients needlessly. steps his team were taking to try to maintain cancer Recent data shows that for every four weeks of delay in care services in as near normal fashion as possible. starting treatment there is as much as a 10% increase in Their ability to operate across two campuses, with a deaths. Some departments report a 20% drop in the covid-free site in Halton, has meant that procedures number of patients classified as curable, leading to such as breast cancer could operate very close to normal. downgrading to palliative treatment instead. Patients—our The partnership formed with Spire hospital in Stretton, constituents, families and friends—are being told that where the NHS has contracted bed space and use of their cancer now cannot be cured and that their treatment operating theatres to give capacity for critical operations, will be palliative instead. Yet the decision to catch up has meant that referrals for urgent treatment in Warrington urgently with cancer has been either delayed or ignored. have continued. We will pay a huge cost for missing out on the chance to correct things at the spending review. That is why I hope I think that talking to real people is when we hear the it is not too late to do so. The public inquiry, when it true stories. Last Friday, I spoke to a constituent called happens, will reveal the situation. The cost of the Helen who lives in Lymm. It was one of the more understandable litigation by patients and families who pleasant conversations that I have had with her over the have been failed will be needlessly huge. last few weeks. She very sadly discovered that her breast cancer had returned in April, which was the same week We first wrote to the Secretary of State about the we hit the peak of the first wave. Understandably, she growing crisis in April, and we have not stopped warning was incredibly concerned when she contacted her GP. of the devastating impact that there will be on the lives Helen was referred back to a consultant and, after tests, of cancer patients.Three hundred and seventy-five thousand was told that she needed a double mastectomy.I remember people have signed the Catch Up With Cancer petition talking to her earlier in the year, when she told me the and have hundreds of patients shared their heartbreaking news, and she explained in detail her fears of catching stories. Experts are saying that there will be as many as covid when she went into hospital to undergo radiotherapy 35,000 unnecessary deaths and, as I have said, 60,000 life and tests. She was asked to isolate and follow detailed 137WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 138WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment [Andy Carter] and we cannot afford to undo the great work and investment that has gone into cancer treatments in guidance, and she was superbly cared for by her son at recent years. I am delighted to speak in a health debate home, who went out of his way to make sure she had today because of the news we have heard that a vaccine everything that she needed. She went into hospital in has been approved and is on the way. That is incredibly Halton for treatment and last week, some eight weeks welcome, but we must put that alongside the challenges after the operation, told me that she was looking forward that exist in every single branch of medicine,and particularly to going back to work as a supply teacher in one of our in cancer care, where the patient backlog is extending. local schools. Her description of the care that she One of the biggest challenges we face is caused not by received from the NHS was incredible, and she said that money or pressure on NHS services but by putting they could not have done more for her. I highlight this things off. We all do it—mainly due to a fear of going story because I think we have not heard enough about into hospital. I mentioned Helen earlier, who talked the work that has continued over the last few months—but about her greatest fear being to go into hospital. Lumps that does not mean we do not have a problem with and bumps are not treated because we think it does not cancer care services. really matter at the moment. I am afraid that is particularly The local hospital in Warrington was treating 170 patients true for us men, and the pandemic has highlighted that. for covid at the start of November. It was one of the We really do need a public information campaign that most under pressure hospitals in the entire country. The says, “If you spot a problem, don’t leave it for a later team has only been able to operate about 80% of date.” normal services. I say only but I actually think that is As the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale pretty good, given that we are in a global pandemic and said, since 2010, survival rates from cancer have increased that is roughly in line with services across the north-west year on year. We have a really good story to tell in this of England. I suspect though that the 80% headline country—about 7,000 people are alive today who would masks many true and worrying statistics that we will not have been here if mortality rates had stayed the discover over the next five years. same—but to sustain that drop, the NHS and Government Last week I also spoke to executives at Macmillan will have to take action like they have never done before. Cancer about the local situation in Warrington, as well It is critical that the cancer workforce is ring-fenced as the national picture. I pay tribute to the Macmillan against any further redeployment to ensure that cancer nurses who have continued to work with patients in care continues and further avoidable cancer deaths are their homes through lockdown, particularly those who averted. have supported families of loved ones who are near Before the pandemic, there were about 3,000 specialist their end of life. Macmillan estimates that across the cancer nurses, which Macmillan modelling indicates is UK there are currently 50,000 missing diagnoses, meaning around 2,500 below the level required to deliver basic that, around 33,000 fewer people started treatment cancer care—and given the backlogs, that figure is compared to a similar timeframe last year. That backlog probably closer to 3,500. Patient feedback to Macmillan of undiagnosed cancer could take 18 months to tackle was that, though its nurses work incredibly hard, they in England alone. Most worryingly, if cancer referrals are not getting the support that they need. I really and screenings do not return to pre-pandemic levels, the welcome the 14,000 additional nurses we have recruited backlog could grow by 4,000 missing diagnoses, reaching in the last 12 months as I do the additional £260 million over 100,000 by October next year. fund allocated for Health Education England in the During much of the pandemic, the NHS has been one-year spending review, which will go towards the open for business, and we should be proud of that. Government’s commitment to train 50,000 more nurses. Anyone who needs care and treatment can continue to However, my hon. Friend the Minister will know that access it. When they need it, they can go to their GP and that alone will not address the significant shortfalls in be seen, especially where delays could impose an immediate specialist cancer care nurses. I am therefore really keen and long-term risk. I think the most worrying statistics to hear from her how the Government can commit to are on urgent GP referrals in July and August. They further long-term funding support for the next iteration were 72,000 lower than last year. In some ways, that of the NHS people plan to eliminate the gap in the highlights the most stark problem that the pandemic is cancer workforce. storing up for us. It is hugely important that the Government back the We have seen a significant reduction in people starting national cancer recovery plan and the additional resource their cancer treatment in 2020. Between March and needed to build capacity and help beat the backlog now September, around 31,000 fewer people started their and in the long-term, getting the right skills and resources first cancer treatment, which is a drop of 17% compared in the right places to make sure we have the biggest to 2019. More than 650,000 people with cancer in the impact possible and, most importantly, encourage people UK have also experienced disruption to their cancer to get the treatment that they need. Getting all of us to treatment or care because of covid-19. For about feel comfortable with reaching out to our GPs early on, 150,000 people, that included delayed or rescheduled so that we can get treatment, must be our No. 1 priority. cancer treatment. I welcome the announcement of £3 billion of extra 9.59 am funding to support NHS recovery from covid-19 and to Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): It is an honour to help tackle and ease some of the pressures in all our serve under your chairmanship, Ms McVey. I rise as the hospitals, allowing them to carry out more checks, chair of the all-party parliamentary group on cancer to scans, operations and procedures. That will help to talk about the worrying backlog of people who have ensure that cancer patients can access the care they need not yet received a diagnosis of cancer. I pay tribute as quickly as possible, but we need to tackle the backlog, to the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale 139WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 140WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment (Tim Farron) for securing the debate. We have been From all accounts, we are not seeing the delays and working hard cross-party to raise the issue of cancer disruption across the board that we saw during the first services and the backlog, which is an issue really close wave of the pandemic. However, despite the improving and dear to my heart and one on which we need to situation there are many instances where the performance make far more progress. I thank him for his excellent of the cancer system is operating at a slightly lower rate speech and his work. than before the pandemic. To tackle the backlog, the Despite the amazing efforts of clinicians working in cancer system needs to out-perform its pre-pandemic the NHS and additional support from the Government, performance, which it is not doing in all areas. the backlog of cancer is big and it is real. It was caused For every month that the NHS is working at below by the impact of addressing the first wave of the pandemic. pre-pandemic levels, the backlog is building and it is not I am not just talking about the backlog of people within being beaten. Urgent GP referrals appeared to be roughly the cancer system, which are often the figures that the back to normal in September, but there were still around Government deem to be the backlog. The real backlog 338,000 fewer people not seeing a specialist following is of undiagnosed people yet to come forward and an urgent referral between March and September this present to the NHS through the three main routes: GPs, year, compared to last year. I am rightly concerned screening programmes and A&E. about the potential for missing diagnoses. Macmillan In “The forgotten ‘C’” report by Macmillan Cancer Cancer Support estimate that it would take 17 months Support, which uses the Government’s own data, it is at 10% above 2019 levels to see 338,000 extra patients, projected that there are currently 50,000 missing diagnoses. which are striking figures. The hon. Member for Warrington South (Andy Carter) The real issue is that Ministers are painting an over-rosy has spoken in great detail about the figures, which I picture of the cancer backlog and trying to refute the have also had from Macmillan. That means that compared claims that a large number of people are not having to a similar timeframe in 2019, 50,000 fewer people have cancer treatment this year compared with previous been diagnosed. That is a huge amount of people that years. The Government cannot refute their own cancer we cannot ignore. waiting times data for those starting first cancer treatment. Macmillan Cancer Support estimate that 33,000 fewer From March to September, there were 31,000 fewer people across the UK started treatment this year than patients starting first cancer treatment in England, which in 2019. Working on the current rates, that backlog of is a drop of 17% compared with the same period last year. undiagnosed cancer could take 18 months to tackle in Let us be clear: there are 31,000 people in England England alone, not talking about the rest of the United who currently could have cancer, and yet, for numerous Kingdom. Macmillan says that reasons associated with the pandemic, have not presented “if cancer referrals and screening do not return to pre-pandemic to the NHS with symptoms. That is an incredibly worrying levels, the backlog could grow by almost 4,000 missing diagnoses and troubling statistic. Without acknowledgement of every month, reaching over 100,000 by October next year.” the scale of the issue, neither the solutions to the problem That worries me to the pit of my stomach. nor the resources needed to tackle it will materialise. Such gravely concerning figures on the cancer backlog Again,whileSeptember’smonthlyactivitywasimproving, are echoed and supported by Action Radiotherapy, it is still down on last year and so the backlog will which states that the backlog of patients still waiting for continue to grow each month. Month by month, potentially life-saving treatment amid the coronavirus performance is below 2019 levels, which is a huge concern— pandemic could be as high as 100,000, with cancer and a huge and daunting task that is currently being services needing to work at around 120% to clear the underestimated by the Government. backlog over the next two years. Those incredibly sobering and worrying statistics concern me. The national cancer recovery plan, which is yet to be In a recent parliamentary answer, the Government published by the Government, and only runs to March stated that they do not recognise those figures and they 2021, only uses metrics on the backlog that include continually give an overly optimistic view of the current those on the 62-day and 31-day cancer pathways, as well state of cancer services. The Government’s latest cancer as those with longer waits for diagnostics or treatments waiting times from September 2020 state that urgent above 104 days. It in no way estimates the significant referrals were at more than 100% of the 2019 levels. number of people yet to present to the NHS. That is the That is over 45,000 people who have received cancer real backlog, which the Government are failing to treatment, which is 96% of last year’s levels. Across the acknowledge and are failing to take significant and period from March to September 2020, over 291,000 cancer timely steps to address. treatments were carried out, which was 86% of the level While the Government have made some welcome in 2019 and 94.5% of patients with a decision to treat steps in adding additional capacity through the independent received a first treatment for cancer within 31 days. sector and just recently committed £1 billion extra in Those are promising and improving statistics from the the comprehensive spending review to deal with backlogs delays and disruption we saw in the first period of the in the NHS, it is uncertain how much of that money is pandemic. We cannot deny that. allocated to the cancer system. Will the Minister confirm I take this opportunity to thank the incredible and how much of that funding will be spent on beating the dedicated cancer workforce that has been indispensable backlog in cancer care? in getting services back nearer to pre-covid levels. That is It is clear that the restoration of the cancer system is why we have to call on the cancer workforce and we need a priority at the highest levels of the Government and to keep them there doing their jobs. They are very precious, that significant resources have already been allocated to particularly at this time. Their efforts have been incredible that endeavour, but—it is a very big but—until the and it is important to acknowledge their service to Government acknowledge and plan to tackle the patients across the country, and their fantastic efforts in monumental scale of the real backlog that is still building, continuing cancer care across the second wave. the health outcomes of many thousands of people out 141WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 142WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment [Tonia Antoniazzi] I have the great privilege to be vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary group for radiotherapy and vice- there yet to be diagnosed with cancer will be significantly chair of the all-party parliamentary group on cancer. grave and the Government will not be able to meet their The charity Action Radiotherapy estimates the full ambitious targets for cancer within the NHS long-term cancer backlog stands at more than 100,000 patients, plan. Will the Minister acknowledge the scale and reality and it agrees that it would take cancer services working of the problem, commit the strategic and monetary at over 120% of pre-covid capacity for two years just resources needed to tackle it now and work with key to catch up. The chair of the Health and Social Care stakeholders such as Action Radiotherapy, the different Committee, the right hon. Member for South West all-party parliamentary groups and Macmillan Cancer Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), agrees with that figure, having Support, which have been working hard to support done some research of his own. those living with cancer and who have been severely We need a distinct plan. It cannot be a case of impacted by the pandemic? Members simply lobbying Ministers and asking for I welcome the previous and the soon-to-be-had more resources. We need to quantify the scale of the engagement with the Minister. We appreciate that we problem; we need an action plan. I am very much aware are working in unprecedented times. However, I was a that we have a cancer recovery plan, but we need an little bit concerned to read a letter dated 30 November action plan that addresses all the issues. I also believe from NHS England’s cancer programme to the cancer that we need somebody with some clout to lead it. Last alliances. The letter, which is advice on maintaining week the Government announced that the Under-Secretary cancer recovery, shows the depth of arrangements and of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, efforts that are being made to restore the cancer system the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), and continue with cancer care, but it fails to acknowledge would be the Minister responsible for driving forward and deal with the huge backlog of people we have the vaccination programme. Cancer is such an important spoken about today—those who are yet to come forward area of concern to the public and to the broader community for a diagnosis. that we need to have someone with some clout, preferably The national cancer recovery plan is too short term a Minister or senior person within the NHS, to be given and has the wrong priorities to deal with the backlog in the responsibility to drive this initiative forward. the long term. That is what we are concerned about; Experts are predicting 35,000 deaths and 60,000 lost that is why we have come here today to present the years of life, with cancer survival rates having been issues to the Minister. I look forward to speaking with pushed back to where they were 10 to 15 years ago. We her, but I ask that this issue is dealt with immediately. need to address this issue. When we have asked questions in previous debates, Ministers have responded, and I 10.9 am mean no disrespect to the Minister who is in her place at Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): Thank you very the moment, because I know that she fully understands much, Ms McVey,for calling me to speak in this important the issue. I do not want to make any apology here, but debate. I also thank my friend, the hon. Member for there is a difference between investing in diagnostics Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), for securing and investing in curative treatments. There is a difference this debate. between radiology and radiotherapy, and I am not convinced that the Secretary of State understands those I am sure this will seem like groundhog day for the differences. We welcome the additional investment in Minister, with a whole phalanx of MPs supporting the digital imaging and improved diagnostics, but we must calls for more resources for cancer, but this is a very address how we get more resources and improve the serious issue and I make no apology for rehearsing number and quality of the skilled cancer workforce to those arguments. Until we see tangible results arising get to grips with the backlog. from our lobbying efforts, I am afraid it will continue. The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale made It is appropriate to mention the implications of the an excellent opening speech, setting out the arguments pandemic for prostate cancer, which was also referred in a thoroughly cogent and thoughtful manner. I also to by the hon. Member for Warrington South. Movember, want to pay tribute to the NHS workforce, in particular when men grow a moustache to raise awareness and our cancer workforce, not just the oncologists but the funds for men’s health during November, ended earlier therapeutic radiotherapists, the technical staff who keep this week. Prostate Cancer UK has identified two major the service running, and those key personnel who work concerns. The first is the detrimental impact on GP behind the scenes, often unacknowledged, whose expertise referrals for prostate cancer. That came to mind when has the potential to improve cancer outcomes. my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) The speeches have been excellent so far, but I will take mentioned the three referral pathways of A&E, GP issue with one point raised by the hon. Member for referral and screening programmes. There is a massive Warrington South (Andy Carter) about our cancer issue. I suspect that hon. Members present have some performance. Our focus in this debate is on what we can experience of how extraordinarily difficult it is, particularly do immediately to address the cancer backlog, but I for older people, to get a face-to-face appointment with would respectfully point out that, even before the pandemic, a GP at this time if they have concerns about possible our performance on cancer outcomes was not world- early symptoms of cancer. Again, that needs to be beating. In fact, for the seven most common cancers, in addressed, because it is having an impact on the backlog. a direct comparison with similar advanced industrialised The second concern is about men accessing support countries, we were either bottom or second bottom. and communication at the time of diagnosis and when There was a job of work to be done even before the living with side effects or advanced disease. Calculations pandemic, and the impact of covid has shone a spotlight by NHS England and Prostate Cancer UK suggest that on that. there are between 3,000 and 5,000 men with undiagnosed 143WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 144WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment higher risk prostate cancer who would otherwise have and would benefit from it. Will the Minister commit to been diagnosed had referral rates been at pre-covid improving access to local radiotherapy by investing in levels. new networked treatment delivery centres? Furthermore, In the time that I have remaining, I will focus on two will he consider all the elements of the six-point plan main areas and I have some specific asks of the Minister. to transform radiotherapy services to ensure that we The first area, which I have raised on previous occasions, have the treatment capacity to catch up? Will he sweep is data and information. We have heard statements from away the bureaucracies that have contributed to the Ministers in the Department of Health and Social Care backlog? and from senior NHS leaders that indicate that they do There is no doubt about it. We need a supercharged— not have an accurate estimate of the full cancer backlog “super boosted”, to use the Prime Minister’s words— of delayed treatments, diagnostics and screenings. The treatment capacity if we are to address this cancer crisis. publication of the radiotherapy dataset, which is available, would show precisely the extent and character of the 10.22 am backlog, because it would compare the position now with the position 12 months ago. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the For reasons that are not apparent to me, the publication hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim has been delayed by NHS England, so my first ask of Farron) on securing the debate and setting the scene, the Minister is, why is that? Why will those radiotherapy and all hon. Members on their incredible contributions. datasets not be published? I do not know whether NHS I look forward—I said this yesterday and need to get England is being too slow to act or whether it is some away from saying it again—to the Minister’s response kind of bureaucratic hold up, but it must be driven and the contributions of the shadow Minister and the forward, as it is imperative to ensure that the cancer Scots Nats spokesperson. recovery plan is accurate. That is despite the fact that I have been contacted by many constituents asking NHS England and Ministers are fully aware of the me to attend and speak in this debate, and as my party’s effect of the pandemic on cancer services; we have been health spokesperson I am very happy to do so. One of raising the issue since April. the heartbreaking stories I have heard in the past couple It is clear that knowledge is power. A lack of accessible of difficult days is a widow saying: data is resulting in an inability to catch up with cancer. “my husband only died of cancer—he isn’t important”. Let us be frank: people are dying unnecessarily as a I honestly could have cried when I heard those words, result. There was the awful case of Kelly Smith, one of because I believe that she genuinely felt that no one many tens of thousands of people, who was a 31-year-old cared, and that is what she told me. I felt that hardness; mother of three who died as a result of delayed treatment I had a compassionate understanding of what she was for bowel cancer. It was absolutely tragic. That caused saying. her family to launch the Catch Up With Cancer campaign We are in unknown territory and undoubtedly we are and petition, which I believe now has almost distracted. How can we save people from contracting 400,000 signatures. If that does not concentrate Ministers’ covid? How do we treat those who have it? How do we minds, I do not know what will. keep people in contact with others for their mental The second area is the comprehensive spending review health? How do we ensure economic viability to pay for and, in particular, the lack of any detail or specific the future health needs of this nation? We are distracted, reference to funding for modernising radiotherapy services. but when we have widows and cancer patients telling us The Chancellor’s announcement last week was most how left behind and unimportant they feel, we know welcome, but when the hon. Member for Westmorland that in our distraction we have got this wrong. It pains and Lonsdale asked about the cancer backlog and me to say that. additional resources for advanced radiotherapy, he was Throughout this pandemic, I and others have lost referred to Health Ministers and the Secretary of State. loved ones. Two of the girls in my office have lost loved We should be aware that radiotherapy is safer to ones: one lost a sister and the other lost two uncles. We administer during the pandemic than alternative treatments. know the devastation, but we have all lost loved ones to I am not attempting to set up a competition, but we cancer too. It is not that one is less important than the have to recognise that radiotherapy is non-invasive and other, so that is why this debate is so important. I am covid-safe, and has a range of applications. It is needed thankful for this debate, which allow me to come alongside by about half of all cancer patients and is a significant my colleagues and friends—that is what they are—to treatment in 40% of cancer cures. I have benefited from discuss how better we can do this together. it myself on three occasions. It is also hugely cost-effective, I was contacted by a radiotherapist who highlighted curing patients for as little as £5,000 to £7,000 per the massive problems they are dealing with daily. There treatment. It is very efficacious in terms of the curative are two main radiotherapy centres in Northern Ireland. rate, and it could do much more to clear the backlog, I know this is not the Minister’s responsibility, but I am but it is being held up by underfunding and bureaucracy, saying this to give some context to the debate. One is in which have slowed the roll-out of new technology for a Belfast, and the other is the newer, smaller North West number of years. Cancer Centre at Altnagelvin. I am told that the main Despite freedom of information requests showing issues in radiotherapy are the result of the lack of that nearly half of trusts are using radiotherapy machines investment and funding. There are major problems as a that are 10 years old or older, it appears that the result of staffing—doctors, therapy radiographers and spending review includes funding only for diagnostic physics—including recruitment, training and retention. machine replacements and not radiotherapy treatments. That has a knock-on effect on service delivery,development Even before the pandemic, Radiotherapy4Life estimated and research. Investment is needed to replace old that 24,000 patients did not have access to radiotherapy radiotherapy treatment machines. 145WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 146WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment [Jim Shannon] by a larger proportion of palliative patients than normal, because that is unfortunately what pancreatic cancer Northern Ireland would like to feel more connected often leads to. If people do not get an early diagnosis to mainland UK radiotherapy, through sharing best and early surgery, they are confronted with end-of-life practice, training support, data sharing, peer review care. For families, that is incredibly difficult and complex, and so on, and that is what we are asking for. It is and a very difficult time in their lives. People with important that we take an holistic approach to this pancreatic cancer have reported feeling forgotten and across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great isolated, at a time when they are also unable to see Britain and Northern Ireland. friends and family due to the risk of covid-19 transmission. The covid problems found also included more patients We are all heartened by the tremendous news today having their treatments disrupted in many centres in the that we are going to roll out the covid-19 vaccine late United Kingdom and a higher proportion than average this year and into next, given the time it will take to get reporting a poor or very poor experience. That also to everyone. That is good news, but we have to address worries me greatly. We have members of the all-party the issues for those with cancer now. I believe we need to parliamentary group for radiotherapy in the Chamber do better, and the changes must be implemented from today, and I know that every one of us understands here at Westminster and across the whole of the United these issues, including the hon. Member for Westmorland Kingdom of Great Britain of Northern Ireland. On and Lonsdale, who set the scene. One hundred per cent behalf of all those cancer patients—all the ones who of responders said they were treating patients who have contacted us, and all those facing an incredibly would usually be having chemotherapy or surgery. The difficult time—I look, as I often do, to the Minister for additional referrals were for a range of cancers, including a response. I know we will get that, but we really do oesophagus, lung, breast, head and neck, upper gastro- need to be reassured. We need early diagnosis and extra intestinal and bladder, and also included palliative cases. care, and we need to show compassion in this place for I want to speak about one specific cancer, pancreatic those outside. cancer. It has been highlighted that there was already an emergency before covid-19. This was a critical issue Esther McVey (in the Chair): We now move to the back in March and it is even more critical today, in Front Benchers. December. Surgery is the only potential cure for pancreatic cancer. Before the pandemic, only one in 10 people 10.29 am received surgery. With pancreatic cancer, a six-month delay to surgery means a 30% reduction in survival and Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve a three-month delaya reduction of over 17%. Unfortunately, under your chairmanship, Ms McVey. I am grateful, as that sets the scene, with pancreatic cancer progressing all our constituents will be, that this issue has been from a curative to a non-curative disease while treatment brought to the fore in the way that the hon. Member for is delayed. Surgery, for some, is no longer an option. Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) has done in That is greatly disturbing. securing this debate. My only regret is that my hon. Reports of service restoration are encouraging. We Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), hear from clinicians that, in most parts of the UK, who is a cancer specialist, cannot be here to share her surgery and treatment are now back up and running at wisdom and knowledge on such matters because she near normal levels, but for so many people with pancreatic cannot participate remotely. You have got me instead, cancer and their families the damage has already been Ms McVey. done. For those diagnosed in the future, the continued As we see from our inbox, there is concern that the delays to the restoration of clinical trials are stunting reconfiguration of our national health services to meet crucial improvements in treatments and outcomes. the projected clinical demands of the pandemic went People with pancreatic cancer have also experienced too far, and has come at a cost to non-covid patients. an information gap, with 40% of patients who were There are serious concerns about a cancer backlog. impacted by the pandemic reporting having received Gravely ill patients were, and clearly continue to be, insufficient information and support about treatment, cared for by our four national health services consistently symptom management or palliative care. We have had throughout the pandemic, thanks to the dedication of multiple reports of people being sent home from hospital clinicians and nursing and support staff. That is not to with a new diagnosis without any further information say that the pandemic preparedness had no consequences, on the disease, their prognosis or treatment options. but to defend the qualified and proportionate repositioning Anyone facing something incredibly dark such as pancreatic of the health services in the face of we knew not what cancer at an advanced stage will want the person opposite exactly, back in March. The backlog is a consequence. them to tell them what is wrong and give them some How can we address it now? light on a way forward. All of us in this Chamber today, As we have heard, Action Radiotherapy has suggested and all of us outside it, have been touched by cancer. that there have been 100,000 missed diagnoses. That is a For every two people we meet, one of them, or someone serious challenge for us to address across these islands. in their family, will have had it. Unfortunately we are The Scottish Government undertook extensive work to continually confronted by this, each and every day. improve cancer treatment over the last decade, and have Calls and emails to Pancreatic Cancer UK’s support made every effort to ensure that it was minimally disrupted line nurses have been up 58% on the normal weekly throughout the pandemic. There has been disruption, average, and there has been a 34% increase in the however—of course there has. number of people being supported each week. Again, I Macmillanhasexpresseditsconcernthat50,000diagnoses think those figures are the critical factor in where we are have been missed. When Macmillan speaks on these on this. Pancreatic Cancer UK has also been contacted issues, Ministers in all four Administrations should listen 147WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 148WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment to that message. A drop of 72% in cancer referrals as a services restored to at least the level seen before the result of covid is a cause for serious concern; we do not pandemic. It is important for colleagues in England to need to be specialists to understand that. Even though keep a weather eye on what the Barnett consequentials only a percentage of those referrals will result in a are for the devolved nations as a result of funding cancer diagnosis, there will nevertheless be a backlog of announcements. To be clear, if there are no Barnett referrals and resulting care plans to be worked up as a consequentials for the devolved Administrations, what result of covid. Dr Gregor Smith and many across these we are seeing is simply relabelled money rather than islands have insisted that people should report and new investment. That will not fly. present to their GPs when they notice something unusual. The hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) The First Minister of Scotland has also stressed that the and for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) do not need the NHS remains available to those who need it. Advice has clinical direction of the Department of Health and been sent to all cancer service centres in Scotland, Social Care—that is taken care of by the devolved including the key message that health boards are expected Administrations—but we are umbilically connected to to maintain full and urgent cancer services. the funding settlement for NHS England. That is why it Who among us is unfamiliar with those in our is so essential. The £3 billion offered for next year is a communities, usually from an older generation, who do third of what the SNP has been calling for on a yearly not like or want to trouble people, so do not present to basis. After a prolonged period of austerity, £3 billion is their GP? For some, particularly men, there is a somewhat not even enough to cover the outstanding hospital understandable reticence to present for healthcare in repairs required in England alone, much less to restore the middle of the pandemic. We can therefore see cancer services. Regardless of where we live on these significant presentation deferral, which needs to be islands, we have all convened here this morning to try to acknowledged, accepted and resourced. That needs to restore cancer services and protect those affected. I be resolved quickly, acknowledging the time-critical respectfully look forward to any specific indications nature of some of the conditions. Cancer treatment that the Minister can give us of additional funding to services in Scotland—and, I assume, in the other three address this very serious and pressing issue. nations—have continued as much as possible throughout lockdown, using modified operational models. I thank 10.36 am NHS Tayside, which employs many of my constituents and looks after the healthcare of all my Angus constituents. Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): It is a I especially thank those at the cancer centre in Dundee, pleasure to serve under your chairship for the first time, who have worked tremendously hard. The Scottish Ms McVey, and I commend the hon. Member for Government invested a great deal in additional MRI Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) for securing scanners and CT scanners to aid diagnosis, but I accept the debate. When he opened it, he said he thought this the important difference that other hon. Members have was an issue on which we could work through consensus highlighted between diagnosis approaches and resource, and in a collegiate fashion, which is absolutely right. and treatment. The tone that he set, and that other hon. Members have Many challenges persist in this priority issue, not followed, reflected that. He also said that he was direct least the staffing of specialist consultants. That is especially in his contribution, which he was. He was right to be challenging now because recruiting from EU countries direct, because these are life and death issues, and we in is challenging as a result of Brexit, and retaining domestic this place need to be really focused on them in the most consultants is also challenging. At the start of covid, direct fashion. the average age of NHS returnees—those who nobly I was lucky to meet the hon. Gentleman in July, answered the call to assist with covid and its alongside representatives from the secretariat of the consequences—was 57. Many of those doctors are retired all-party parliamentary group on radiotherapy, to discuss because of the punitive implications of Her Majesty’s this issue. Of course the situation is not exactly the same Revenue and Customs rules on pension allowance. That as it was in July, but the crux of the issue is the same. It really needs to be addressed soon, to allow that dormant is great to go beyond virtual meetings and the back-channel domestic capacity to keep their shoulders to the wheel conversations that we have in Parliament, and to get the should they wish to, without being unduly penalised. subject on to the Floor of the House in order to have a That issue of doctors’ pensions is one of the most public conversation about what is a very public and hopeless instances of the total failure of a whole-system important matter. I particularly agreed with the hon. approach in modern governance, with HMRC tying Gentleman’s point about “back to normal” not being the hands of our NHS behind its back. That is a really good enough, because “back to normal” will not help easy win—low-hanging fruit—that we can resolve quite us clear the backlog. Actually, we do not want to go soon. back to where cancer services were in January. Hon. The UK Government must ensure that cancer treatment Members have touched on many ways to make services does not move backwards in the aftermath of coronavirus, better—I will do the same later—and we should seek to and must focus proper additional investment on our do so. I share the hon. Gentleman’s anxiety about the NHS. Despite the work of the NHS in Scotland and gap between some of the rhetoric that we have heard across the UK, there is a backlog of people seeking from the Secretary of State, and the reality of what the cancer screening and/or treatment. At this stage, we numbers tell us about where we are at the moment. have three priorities: satisfying the routine cancer demand; Cancer touches us all at some point, as the hon. the health commitments in and around covid; and the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said yesterday cancer backlog. To ensure that this does not spiral into and again today. For me, it was 33 years ago: I lost my an enduring secondary health crisis, significant and father just before my third birthday. You come to terms defined supplementary investment is needed to clear the with it and learn to live with it, but it is something that backlog of screening and treatment, and to get cancer you carry around with you every day for the rest of your 149WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 150WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment [Alex Norris] the world overwhelmed, so we should be really proud of ours. It is a real testament to the institution that it has life. One of my major reasons for wanting to be a stood firm. Member of Parliament is that I want there to be as few Nevertheless, we know that we now have an undiagnosed families like mine as possible. We can beat cancer to the and untreated backlog of cancer. It is hard to estimate best of our ability, so that people need not live their life its true size because it is unknown. However, working in the shadow of cancer. I know that the Minister off the best estimates of experts in the field—I shall use shares that aspiration. That is part of the consensus many of the numbers that the hon. Member for that we can build on this important issue. Westmorland and Lonsdale did in opening the debate—we The speeches this morning have been really good. are talking about a backlog of about 100,000 patients, The hon. Member for Warrington South (Andy Carter) which it would take about two years, working at 20% higher started with Helen’s story, which was a really important capacity than pre-covid, to capture. We cannot do that thing to do. Lots of numbers have circulated—I will be just by wanting it to be better or wanting people to put guiltier than anyone else of throwing tens of thousands their shoulders to the wheel even more, after a year in here and there—but each one of those statistics is a which the NHS has been working flat out. We will have person and a life. That is what really matters. I strongly to do things fundamentally differently. If not, the price share the hon. Gentleman’s recognition of the creativity will be preventable deaths. Every four weeks of delay in of our NHS. starting treatment can cause an increase of up to 10% in the risk of death. The estimate is that the backlog could I nodded and agreed when my hon. Friend the Member cause between 30,000 and 60,000 deaths, which starts to for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) made the point about become of the same order of magnitude as the number undiagnosed cancers. I worry sometimes that when the of deaths from covid itself. That is how serious the Secretary of State talks, he is talking about the backlog situation is. As we emerge from the pandemic, we need and dealing with treatment for those who have a diagnosis. to tackle cancer with the urgency and focus with which That is of course absolutely crucial, but it is only part of we have tackled covid. the problem that we are dealing with. There is particular concern about missed screenings. My hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame Cancer Research UK estimates that 3 million screenings Morris) has been a very good friend to me ever since I were missed over the last year. Also, we know that fewer was elected in 2017, but particularly in my Front-Bench people went to the GP with symptoms during that time, role over the past eight months. I am grateful to him for because they were worried about other issues or capacity his counsel and guidance, and for constantly sharing his issues. As a result, about 350,000 fewer people were information with me to enrich my work. He was right to referred between April and August than we would normally say that we have to understand the performance picture expect, and there was a consequent 39% drop in the number a year ago—frankly, covid was a very distant and small of key diagnostic tests undertaken in that period. threat, and we had not really grasped how it would I was really glad to hear yesterday from the Minister change our lives. We were not happy with cancer that the numbers of GP referrals are now back around performance or with the direction of travel over the last pre-pandemic levels. That is a good sign. Actually, there decade. Certainly, as the Opposition, we were very were more referrals in September 2020 than in September concerned about that. We have to see the current situation 2019, but the two-week wait target of 93% is not yet in that context. being met, so there is definitely some context for that. The hon. Member for Strangford was yesterday the We need to understand that this issue will still not Member in charge of a brilliant debate on cancer in apply evenly throughout the population. Cancer does children and young people. Collectively, we raised and not know who we are when it grows in our bodies, but analysed really important issues, and I know that the different demographics are affected differently—yesterday Minister took an awful lot away from that. The we talked about young people—and there are issues hon. Gentleman’s contribution today was very much in about different cancers, too. The points that the hon. the same vein. It was about an holistic approach, across Member for Strangford made about pancreatic cancer the four nations, all of which are represented today, which were well made. is really nice. As the hon. Member for Angus (Dave The scale of the problem is exceptional and it calls on Doogan), who speaks for the SNP, said, this is of course us in this place to make it a real focus and to have really a devolved issue. But we need to tackle it collectively. strong, robust plans; so, now that I have talked about I will make a few points of my own. In yesterday’s the problems, here are my suggested solutions. For me, debate, I touched on the impact that covid has had on this goes across four phases—planning, resourcing, new cancer diagnosis and treatment in children and young treatments, and workforce. people—a demographic that is often both reluctant to In August, the Secretary of State said that he very visit the doctor and diagnosed slowly; it often takes much hoped that the backlog would be cleared multiple visits for that to happen. We will need to do “within a matter of months”. things differently to tackle the pre-existing issues such as that and to catch up in relation to where we are. Since I assumed my role, I have used three out of four sessions of Health questions to ask about cancer and Of course it was right that we prioritised covid during try to get the Government on the record on that, which the first wave and have continued to make tackling the is why it is so great that we are having this debate. My pandemic an important priority. We should take real heart sank when the Secretary of State said he thought pride in the fact that our NHS has taken such a strong the backlog could be cleared within a matter of months, punch to its capacity and stood there; that was not because there is a problem; I do not think it is rude or inevitable. We have seen other health services around unkind to say so. It has been recognised, during the 151WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 152WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment pandemic, that some of the rhetoric that comes out of That is an area where we can make a real impact. Will the Department is wishful and not grounded in reality. the Minister commit to follow what my hon. Friend the We are always told that things will be “world-class” and Member for Easington said and publish the delayed that things will be done “by the end of next month”. radiotherapy dataset? That would be a nice step forward. People’shopes are got up and then dashed. Wedo not need Macmillan has raised concerns that the long-term exaggerated rhetoric here; we need exaggerated action. plan for the NHS will not be matched by the workforce I cannot see how anybody thinks that we can clear available. It thinks we need a further 2,500 specialist the backlog—the real backlog, which includes the lack cancer nurses. Where are we up to with that? of diagnosis as well as delayed treatment—within a The most important message that any of us can send matter of months. I do not think it helps anybody to today is to a person listening to this, watching this or talk in those terms. However, in October, at the Health following the coverage who has a hacking cough, a questions before last, the Secretary of State gave me a lump or bump or blood in the stool, and has previously categorical assurance that he has a cancer recovery plan used the pandemic—as perhaps many of us would—as that will drive down waiting lists each month for the rest a reason not to access care. I ask them to please not do of the year. I welcome that. That could be done and I that. The NHS is there for them. We need them to am keen to hear the Minister reflecting on progress on access it. It will be there. that. Similarly, at the most recent Health questions, the Esther McVey (in the Chair): I am about to call the Minister for Health, the hon. Member for Charnwood Minister, but am mindful that Tim Farron needs time to (Edward Argar), said that there was greater capacity to wind up. deal with these things. Grahame Morris: I cannot dispute the answer that my 10.48 am hon. Friend received from the Minister. It was an obvious The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health answer, but the waiting lists have reduced because people and Social Care (Jo Churchill): It is a pleasure to serve are not presenting. There are fewer screening programmes, under your chairmanship, Ms McVey. I have been given people are finding it harder to see their GP and things nine minutes to answer an enormous number of questions, have become more and more difficult, so there is bound so I will canter through in the hope that I answer some to be a reduction in waiting times, but that does not of them. We are a group that meets and discusses these reflect the true picture of the backlog. things on a fairly regular basis. Indeed, I am back here this afternoon for a lung cancer debate, so this is an Alex Norris: Those points are very well made and get ongoing conversation, which I appreciate is vital. It is to the heart of what we as an Opposition want, what all right that we recognise, as several hon. Members have, Back Benchers want—and in fact, everyone. We do not that the NHS has stood up during the pandemic, which want to beat cancer on paper and in statistics; we want was a blow to its very belly. We have put much effort to beat it in reality. We are not making this an issue of into retaining services, not only for cancer, but for politics. It has to be an issue of coming together, as the stroke patients and others, so that they can go to our hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale said in NHS in their time of need. opening the debate, with new and challenging things. Critically, at the heart of this, there is an indication of a I thank the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale plan, so I hope that today the Minister will commit to (Tim Farron) for securing this debate and for all the publishing it, give us greater detail on what is in it, work he does as chair of the APPG. He has such a update us on its progress in recent months and tell us formidable set of musketeers supporting him on what is whether it works through the full pathway,from symptoms one of the most focused APPGs. We are due to meet in to treatment, or whether it is just a diagnostics plan. To January, but I will try to fit in a short meeting this side what extent is it being maintained in the second wave, of the recess. and, with the national cancer recovery plan expiring I have never said we were world beating—I came to next March, will there be a longer-term successor? I this place because we were not; we had challenges know that is a peppering of questions, but this is our before. Up to March last year, there were 2.4 million best opportunity to ask, so I hope the Minister will take patients, which is 1.4 million more than in 2010. We that in the spirit intended. were on a trajectory and covid hit us hard, and I would On resources, there was £1 billion in the spending be the first to say that it has presented major challenges review to tackle backlogs. Will the Minister clarify how for the entire healthcare system. much of that will go to cancers? Although the money is The significant impact of shutting down services welcome, it is less than all the health experts have called resulted in a sharp reduction in the number of people for. The Chancellor has promised to give the NHS what being referred urgently with suspected cancer and from it needs, and this is a “what it needs” issue, so resources screening programmes. That is a statement of fact. I am are important. not going to stand here and say that it did not happen, On innovation, I am lucky enough to have lots of but I am also not going to say that Herculean efforts innovative companies contact me to talk about their have not been made since then. treatments. It cheers the spirit to hear about developments I am really pleased that the cancer services recovery in chemotherapy that will make it possible for drugs to plan has had input from many cancer charities, including be tailored to individuals. That is remarkable. However, Macmillan, which has been mentioned, as well as many I will make a point about radiotherapy because of the Royal Colleges, including those of General Practitioners, hon. Members between me and the door; I will not get of Pathologists, of Radiologists and of Surgeons. It is out unless I do. Radiotherapy is safe to deliver in a vital that the right people make the recovery plan, pandemic, is significant in 40% of cures and is cost-effective. which is being led by Professor Peter Johnson and Cally 153WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Access to Cancer 154WH Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis and Treatment [Jo Churchill] We stood up; we did not shy away from it. There have been no arguments about us using the private sector Palmer. It is in their hands together—a coalition—and I during the pandemic, have there? hope the recovery plan very much leads the way on a route to addressing the backlog and making sure that Grahame Morris rose— we take opportunities. I think we all agree on some of the challenges, Jo Churchill: I am really sorry but I have only got two including those on data, referral systems and the lack of minutes. optimal radiotherapy machines in Westmorland. Again, The NHS will accelerate the roll-out of rapid diagnostic that is a statement of fact and we need to address how centres. As I said in this Chamber yesterday, in March we improve that situation so that every single person we had 17 of them and we now have 45—we have stood has appropriate access to treatments. As treatments up 28 of them in the course of the pandemic. Most advance or are shorter—more oral chemotherapy can importantly, they will support early diagnosis, which we be given at home, for example—there is a chance to know is key. I am pleased that we are concentrating on redesign services to make them better and deliver more recovering and maintaining cancer services. Through for patients. Every single day, I think of those patients. the newly formed cancer recovery taskforce, led by The hon. Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) Professor Peter Johnson, we can drive that commitment made a comment about the loss of individuals. Every forward with everybody. single day, that is what motivates me. The workforce have adapted, flexed and cared for I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington individuals in the most challenging of circumstances. South (Andy Carter) for his comments about how hard Every death concentrates my mind. My first text yesterday the workforce are working. Whether it is a cancer nurse was from a friend who told of the passing of someone specialist, a radiotherapist, a radiographer or a surgeon, who had lost her fight against breast cancer after seven they are putting their back into this effort, because it years. The disease does not go away. I am sure my hon. could be a member of their family.They are a tremendously Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey committed workforce, to whom I extend enormous Crouch) would be here if she were not going through thanks—but we need to get more of them. How do we treatment and, as she would tell us, it sucks. The cancer convince a young nurse that his or her route is to workforce are a special part of the NHS family and I become a cancer nurse, even though all the other specialists want us to ensure that they know how special they are are also asking for them? We should also be working on so that people come forward to join them. that as a coalition, saying, “This is a fantastic area.” We know that referral rates have been variable across We want to eradicate breast cancer by 2050. The different cancer types. Arguably, some cancers have survival rate for testicular cancer is now at a 98%. really challenged us, and particularly those that need Pancreatic cancer is a dreadful disease, but we are now endoscopies and colonoscopies. We are still not there seeing not a two-week death sentence, but a couple of because of the treatment. Lung cancer referrals were years. There are advances all the time and we must poor before we went into the pandemic. What would optimise that. Each and every person deserves to see someone think if they had a persistent cough? They that power, particularly on today of all days, when a might get a covid test. Actually, if that test is negative, vaccine has been approved and we know how brilliant we need to ensure that they are referred by 111 to the this country’s life sciences industry is. We can beat this system for a lung cancer test. disease, but it takes time. I am absolutely committed to the patient-centred approach. One in four patients presented I have a lot more that I would like to tell hon. at A&E before this crisis—they presented too late. We Members, but I dare say that we will be back here know what the golden thread is. imminently. On that note, I will hand over to the hon. There have been some positive announcements. I was Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale. encouraged to hear that we will pilot the Grail blood test, which can detect cancer from saliva. I am also 10.58 am pleased that in November’s spending review there was a further £325 million of investment in diagnostic equipment. Tim Farron: The hon. Members for Warrington South The allocation of that will be determined in the next few (Andy Carter), for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi), for Easington weeks. I cannot give hon. Members any promises, and (Grahame Morris), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for they would not expect me to say what will be allocated, Angus (Dave Doogan) and for Nottingham South (Alex but I understand the lobbying and the importance of Norris), and indeed the Minister, all made excellent not necessarily having shiny, sparkly front doors to points, and I am extremely grateful. I thank the Minister walk through but getting the kit on the ground that can for what she said and for agreeing to meet us this side of help save people’s lives. We know that no one single the recess. To be specific, we are after a meeting with thing gives people the best chance of survival—it is her, of course, and departmental finance officials so the golden thread of swift referrals and screening that that we can revisit the investment decision—that decision gives us early diagnosis—so we need those faecal immuno- is problematic—and have our experts meet hers to get chemical tests and to roll out the lung cancer pilots, and to the bottom of the data. We need to see the datasets so we are doing that. We need to ensure that we drive up that we can explore the extent to which there is an those workforce numbers. We also need shorter waiting urgent crisis—we are certain that there is one. times for optimal treatment that will ultimately turn the Finally, the Minister talked about the importance of tide on this disease. diagnosis. The Government are making progress on Our strategy for maintaining services concentrates diagnostics. Of course, in the NHS long-term plan, we on stepping up hubs for cancer surgery and optimising see the desire to find more cancers earlier so that we can independent use, which we have done as a Government. treat them. If we find more cancers early, however, we 155WH Covid-19: Access to Cancer 2 DECEMBER 2020 156WH Diagnosis and Treatment will have more people to treat. That is why the radiotherapy Local Government Reorganisation: investment that we have called for is essential, not just Somerset now but in the long term. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). 11.2 am Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) Esther McVey (in the Chair): I will suspend the sitting (Con): I beg to move, for two minutes so that hon. Members can exit safely That this House has considered local government reorganisation and the next lot can come in safely. in Somerset. 11 am This is a great opportunity. I am delighted to see the Minister in her place and to be working with her once Sitting suspended. again, as I have done for many years. I am grateful to be able to raise the subject of local government reorganisation. It is important to many people, but at the moment it is an irrelevant sideshow due to the awful pandemic. The only reason it is on the agenda now is that the leader of Somerset County Council pushed, bullied and forced it down the throats of our local party. When the virus started to spread, the voice of David Fothergill boomed out across local radio. Unfortunately, his numerous broadcasts had nothing to do with the worst health crisis in a generation. Instead, Councillor Fothergill polished his ego and got his leg over his personal hobby-horse named One Somerset. It was “Somerset calling, Somerset calling.” It was impossible to avoid hearing or seeing the message, or the man. He made dozens of videos and droned on and on about the golden advantage of single unitary status and the perils of accepting anything less. One Somerset was already becoming a dangerous distraction to the main task of fighting the disease. One day, we may discover what really happened to some of the huge grants that the county council was given to fight covid. Did the cash go where the Government intended? Did it help to save lives? Was it diverted and at what human cost? I sincerely hope that the county council is not found to have blood on its hands. The Minister’s Department had hoped to publish a White Paper on the future of local government this year, but launching such a policy document would have been insensitive while the Government grappled with the worst of the crisis. It was a good call that I totally agree with. Councillor Fothergill, however, refused to wait; the man has no patience. He boosted the county council’s publicity team to 28. That is actually more than the Downing Street press unit. He set aside a war chest of £2 million, I am told, to fight for his vision for One Somerset. He also hired a unitary fanatic from Wiltshire with the unlikely name of Carlton Brand—it really is true. Dr Brand, I am told, is being paid in the region of £200,000 for his work. However, Dr Brand’s model is riddled with holes and was completely out of date when Wiltshire went unitary in ’09. When I last looked, it was £21 million in the red already and its relationships with its parish councils have turned desperately sour. I would not buy a pair of used bicycle clips from Dr Brand, let alone a pair of lycra cycling pants, but Fothergill has paid him a small fortune to take the ancient Wiltshire model with a few tweaks, and foist it on us. In the shadowy world of used car dealers, One Somerset is what they call a cut and shut job. It looks safe until it is found that the front end is a wreck and is welded on to the back end of another wreck, and the paint job at both ends does not match. One Somerset is a municipal death trap.The county councils could not believe Fothergill’s timing. To launch that cobbled-together rust bucket 157WH Local Government Reorganisation: 2 DECEMBER 2020 Local Government Reorganisation: 158WH Somerset Somerset [Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger] come and go but tightrope walking should not be part of the job description. After the referendum defeat, when people were dying from covid was crass, inept and Alan Jones signed the county up to a lunatic outsourcing totally unnecessary. It was the tactic of a ruthless smash scheme called Southwest One. It had disaster written all and grab monster; and that is still his aim—to smash over it. The four district councils were too sensible to the district councils and grab their cash reserves. His touch it. Our Mr Fothergill was in favour. Southwest case is based on propaganda and lies. He is Taunton’s One promised to save hundreds of millions of pounds. answer to William Joyce, and we all remember what It fell flat on its face and cost the county £70 million in happened to that particular traitor—Albert Pierrepoint’s payments. first customer, as I seem to recall. Why does this county council always end up with There is an important question of geographical second-rate top brass, incapable of walking along a involvement. What is the exact area of Somerset that we corridor, let alone a tightrope? The men and women are talking about? It is not a silly query, even for a who do the hard graft—the staff—are more like lions, Member of Parliament who represents a big part of it. but they are constantly led by donkeys. They are donkeys When it was established, in 1889, Somerset County that lurch from crisis to crisis, blaming everyone else: Council mirrored Somerset’s traditional borders. It was adult social care, children’s services; the list goes on. enormous, bringing in Avonmouth just south of Bristol, Today we have a class A jackass running the county, and including Weston-super-Mare, Bath and everything preaching the only way, and the leader is Fothergill. in between, including places such as Midsomer Norton, In reality,west Somerset should be called three Somerset. the quaint town where “Midsomer Murders”was filmed. This great county has already got two unitaries. Back in How appropriate. All those picturesque settlements are 1996, North Somerset, and Bath and North East Somerset in Somerset and have nothing to do with Somerset were created. Both are struggling today. They are far County Council. If I asked Members to draw me an too small to survive much longer. I wonder if anyone outline of Somerset County Council’s area, many would can identify the architect of the biggest, first reorganisation be stumped. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister has in 1974, when the demolition of our historic county an idea. In her patch it should be easy. Kent County began. That was the Minister who pushed the boundaries Council still has traditional borders, and I am delighted as far down as Midsomer Norton. We could call him for it; but the county council is a mishmash and a the Midsomer murderer,after the TV series. Does anybody muddle in Somerset—a misnomer, and a minefield for recall his name? Here is a clue: the poor man died in any Minister of the Crown. The county has been 1981 and, in a by-election, his safe seat fell to Shirley reorganised so often that it is now unrecognisable. How Williams of the SDP.It was the late Sir Rodney Graham on earth are local people expected to take it seriously? Page. Be warned, history always forgets those who Somerset County Council is also broke. It has been carved up our county. on skid row for two decades. In ’07 it had only £11 million in reserves. Here we are 13 years later and the reserves Counties may be going out of fashion, which may be are dangerously low. What scares the pants off me is fair enough. We understand that local government must that Fothergill’s One Somerset master plan suggests never stand still, but intelligent change is the best way, running the same risk. He allows a mere 10% contingency, Minister. That is why the Government are right to insist as opposed to the 25% that is recommended by the that big ideas should come from the councils themselves Treasury.If an unexpected crisis happens—and Somerset and not be imposed on them. It is also vital to demonstrate County Council’s dismal record is littered with expensive genuine local support. I think the Minister will use the crises—there is very little left in the kitty. The county term good, local support. What does that mean? council usually reflects the spending cuts and redundancies If a county council votes for reorganisation, does that a bunch of new smooth-talking consultants with a that represent good support? No, surely not, if all four magic bullet have left. That is roughly what happened in districts vote against One Somerset. Far more elected 2007 when Alan Jones, Somerset’s teeny chief exec, councillors booed than cheered Mr Fothergill’shobbyhorse. stuck his thumb in the air, thought he felt a wind of If a county council secures the backing of a handful of change, and yelled “Eureka!” He had a beady eye on the prominent figures, is that good support? How many reserves of the district councils all those years ago. He endorsements are needed? I think we should be told. reckoned if the Government agreed to scrap the districts I note, with great concern, that One Somerset is he could save the county from bankruptcy. Labour was bragging—bragging, of all things—about the support in power and Jonesy thought he would get away with it. of Mrs Mountstevens, the police and crime commissioner. Wiltshire county was pitching for unitary status and so Mrs Mountstevens’reputation for dishonesty now matches was Cornwall. The unspeakable little man jumped on Mr Fothergill’s. No wonder they are mates. She broke the bandwagon and then fell off it. Quite simply, he had the rules and picked her own deputy by simply giving not bargained on the most important: the people. him the job; a typical crooked stich-up. To make matter Somerset folk are really canny and strong willed, as I worse, her deputy used to be a lawyer who set up can testify. They may not love their district councils, but Southwest One, the failed outsourcing partnership. What at least they know who they are and why they are there. goes around comes around. They hate and reject the face of unapproachable How are the public going to be consulted? It is not bureaucracy. The districts demand a referendum and good enough to offer cheap online quotations, yet that should have one. The county council refused, so we did is the system that Somerset has opted for. Can anyone it ourselves: a full vote with polling booths and all the fill in a form on a website? Lord Haw-Haw could sit all trimmings. It cost a bit, but it proves the point. Four night ticking boxes in his favour; perhaps he does. That hundred thousand people cast a vote and 82% rejected is wide open to abuse. Precisely the same dodgy process the unitary plan. Mr Jones limped away with his tail was tried when Taunton Deane Borough Council set between his legs and left the council. Bad chief execs about swallowing west Somerset. I will remind the 159WH Local Government Reorganisation: 2 DECEMBER 2020 Local Government Reorganisation: 160WH Somerset Somerset Minister what happened. It was another half-baked will be eligible to apply directly to the fund to finance scheme from another corrupt council leader, who—and things that communities need and people want. The I will say this only once—claimed to be a Conservative. spending review makes available up to £600 million in The people never got a proper say and, when the 2021-22, and we will publish a prospectus for the fund, elections were held for the new council, the Conservatives launching the first round of the competitions in the new were basically wiped out. year. Further finding will spread over subsequent years, The people will always punish stupid decisions and up to 2023-24. stupid people at the ballot box. We should never forget The Government consider that locally led changes to that as MPs. I would like to think that the Minister and the structure of local government, whether in the form the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local of unitarisation or district mergers, can be the appropriate Government will select a much more open and honest means of saving taxpayers’ money, and improving service form of public consultation for this proposal. delivery and local accountability. However, we are clear I realise this is short notice, but I will provide some that any reform of a local government area is most detail today. If it is fair, it will have my enthusiastic effectively achieved through locally led proposals, put support. Frankly,we need something that is more thorough forward by those who know the area best—the very than a referendum. I know that, if necessary, the districts essence of localism, to which the Government remain are willing to run their own referendum. I hope the committed. There is no question of, as my hon. Friend Minister can see that that will not be required. I bring referred to, top-down imposition of Government solutions. today for the Minister a letter from the leader of Sedgemoor Anyproposal for change will need to meet our long-standing District Council, which is partly in my constituency, criteria and must be likely to improve local government along with Somerset West and Taunton. He asks the in the area, command a good deal of local support and Government to consider bringing back the old county—for lead to unitary councils covering a credible geography. the Secretary of State to consider bringing us together, This brings me to local government reorganisation in back to 1974, when the travesty of destroying our Somerset, one of the three areas of the country where, wonderful county was seen to be important. This is an on 9 October, the Secretary of State invited all the opportunity. principal councils to submit locally led proposals for Colleagues in this place and in Somerset understand unitary local government. The other areas where councils that we want to be given a say. The critical mass of the received an invitation were Cumbria and North Yorkshire. existing county, with the ridiculous proposal to save Councils in these areas have been developing ideas only £18 million, will do nothing—nothing, Minister. It about restructuring local government in their areas for will just enable it to limp on, but limp on to what? some time and have requested such invitations. Another oblivion; another loss. This letter—this In Somerset, all five councils published a report on opportunity—means that we can secure our self-esteem, the future of local government there in January 2019, and bring our historic heartland and the people we looking at a wide range of options for improving local represent together. services. It is right that Somerset councils should now have the opportunity to take their local discussions to a The MPs of this area are mainly of one party, which conclusion and, if they wish, make a proposal for is the most successful democratic political party in the unitary reform. We have received two outline proposals world. Why? Because we listen to the people and understand from Somerset councils—one from the county council what they say, and it is important that we continue to do proposing a single unitary for the area, and one from so. I ask the Minister to urge our right hon. Friend the the district councils proposing two unitary councils. Secretary of State to think about this long and hard, The councils will now have until 9 December to submit because I hope that today is the start of chance for their proposals in full. the Government to put right a terrible wrong, and to understand that the will of the people matters beyond I welcome the healthy debate that this process represents all else. I will pass this letter to the Minister and thank on the best way forward for local government in Somerset her for her courtesy in listening. to ensure that councils can deliver excellent services for their businesses and residents. It would not be appropriate 11.16 am for me to comment today on those proposals as they are yet to be submitted in full, but I would like to outline The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, the steps that we plan to take after the full proposals Communities and Local Government (Kelly Tolhurst): It have been received. is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the The next step is for the Secretary of State to consult. first time, Ms McVey. I congratulate my hon. Friend the The statute requires that any such consultation consult Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell- any councils that would be affected by a proposal but Grainger) on securing this debate. His passion for Somerset did not submit it, as well as any other persons that the and its history is well known across the House. He often Secretary of State considers appropriate. We will be treats us to interesting snippets of historic fact. keen to gather views from a wide range of stakeholders, I understand his long-standing interest in this matter. including councils,other public service providers,businesses, The Government are committed to levelling up all areas voluntary sector organisations and, very importantly, of the country and empowering our regions by devolving local residents. Of course, we look forward to hearing money, resources and control away from Westminster. from all local MPs. We will in due course set out our detailed plans in the We would hope to launch any consultation in early local recovery and devolution White Paper, as my hon. 2021. We may consult on the proposals received, or we Friend mentioned. may decide at that point not to take a proposal further, At the spending review, the Chancellor announced a if for example it was not in compliance with the invitation. new £4 billion levelling-up fund, building on the success Hence, we may undertake the consultation on both of our £3.6 billion town fund. Local areas across England proposals for Somerset. 161WH Local Government Reorganisation: 2 DECEMBER 2020 162WH Somerset [Kelly Tolhurst] Homelessness and Temporary Accommodation Following the consultation, the Secretary of State will carefully consider the proposals, assessing them [SIR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] alongside the long-standing criteria that I described earlier. He must have regard to all representations that 2.30 pm he has received in relation to the proposals, including Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): I beg to those received through the consultation exercise, and all move, other relevant information available to him. That this House has considered homelessness and temporary Where the Secretary of State decides that a proposal accommodation. should be implemented, he will seek parliamentary It is a pleasure to speak in this debate under your approval for the necessary secondary legislation—the chairmanship, Sir Edward. I am grateful for the opportunity structural changes order—with which my hon. Friend to speak, and delighted, as well, that the debate has the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset is familiar. attracted support in the Chamber on an issue that is Such an order would need to be considered by each central to much of our work as Members of Parliament House. If Parliament approves the implementation of but not discussed as often as we would like. Although such a proposal, it is likely that a new unitary council there is a great deal to cover under the topic of homelessness will be established from 1 April 2023. The majority of and temporary accommodation, I shall concentrate the implementation work that councils will undertake particularly on conditions, and I hope that colleagues will be in 2022-23, with elections to shadow or preparing will address some of the other important issues that councils in May 2022. come under its umbrella. I just want to touch on elections. The Secretary of “I feel like I am being punished.” State has the power to postpone local elections. We Those were the words of a desperate mother accepted recognise that, when making proposals, councils may as homeless after experiencing domestic violence, and request that the May 2021 local elections in the area be placed in temporary accommodation by my local authority, postponed for a year. There are precedents for a one-year Westminster City Council, like tens of thousands of postponement of local elections where unitarisation is others. There were 98,300 households in temporary under consideration, the examples being the Buckingham accommodation in June, including 127,240 children, andNorthamptonshireunitarisations.Suchapostponement and that was up by 14% in the last year alone. The avoids members being elected for a short period and mother was found a private flat by the council, somewhat confusion for the electorate, who are asked to vote for misleadingly described as temporary, because she has councils for the future that are under consideration and stayed in that limbo for seven years already. That is not may be abolished. We will carefully consider any such my personal record for temporary accommodation. The request from any councils and any other representations current record is 21 years, and 10 years is not at all unusual. that we receive on that. The properties that the mother in question and everyone I thank my hon. Friend for securing this debate, and I like her have been placed in are expensive. Their rents look forward to having further discussions with him on are similar to full market-level private rents.In a particularly the matter. I am grateful to him for passing on the letter cruel twist, those high rents mean that a high percentage addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of of homeless households are immediately caught by the State about the issues that he has raised. benefit cap, even though the occupants had no choice With the invitation, councils in Somerset now have about where they were placed, or the rents they would an opportunity to move forward with reforms that can pay. They are also insecure, as the mother in question is. open the way to achieving significant benefits for local Families such as hers are forced to move constantly, not people and businesses, delivering service improvement, just within the local area but across the city and beyond, facilitating economic growth and contributing to the regardless of the schools that the children attend or levelling up of opportunity and prosperity across the their personal needs. country.I very much hope that we see successful proposals A heavily pregnant constituent, who was registered and outcomes for Somerset and indeed the rest of the blind, was placed first in north London, in a property with country. multiple stairs, that was not self-contained and where Question put and agreed to. she was at risk of falling, and then in east London, where she was expected to navigate totally unfamiliar 11.24 am surroundings. She said to me: Sitting suspended. “I’m very frightened from places I’m unfamiliar with, as I can’t get around”. A family with two blind young adult children attending college were told they simply had to learn new mobility routes, as they were sent to the other side of London. These are all recent cases. Someone else told me: “We were living locally for 19 years, and working in the hospital. We were evicted from our flat and had to approach Westminster council for help. We were placed in an emergency self contained flat that we were told was just for six weeks, so we couldn’t change our daughter’s school. But unfortunately its lapsed to 7 months. The transport is too expensive from West London just to take my daughter to the school. The cost is £60 weekly which we can’t afford any more—and the journey is too long—my wife has to leave home at 6AM to reach the school at 9AM. She find it very hard with little girl who is just 28 months old.” 163WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 164WH Accommodation Accommodation The stories of dislocation and of the crisis of affordability open for at least 5 hours every day. You could imagine the cost of could fill this debate alone, but I want to concentrate on heating…as we have a little boy who is autistic and had a very the condition of the properties that my constituents are serious breathing condition and needs medical attention if he gets placed in. Those conditions are beyond belief, particularly a simple cold. It is not only my son getting constantly ill but our food is mouldy and the clothes inside the cupboards are mouldy given the amount of public money that is going into too.” supporting the almost entirely private landlords providing the accommodation. Another constituent wrote: “Although we are on the waiting list for many years now, The family commuting five hours a day to school also A2Dominion has not kept up its maintenance of this property. reported: We have mould in all the rooms, carpets and furniture. The floor “The condition of the flat is very bad & cold we are on the top is a hazard as initially it did not even have underlay. Due to the of the building, & all is glass, with damp everywhere, the water wear and tear of 15 years we were advised to remove it and now leaking through the glass all around us”. we are without carpet. Winter is settling in and we will be cold. In The same mother I referred to at the beginning of the the last few weeks, we have had to kill 6 mice. There are holes in floorboards and walls where they come in”. speech, who was homeless owing to domestic violence, contacted me a few weeks ago to say: Another said: … “The property we are in is a shambles with mice, rats and rising “I am in a temporary accommodation by Westminster council damp and mould throughout. The Council has contacted the placed in Leyton. I have written to my landlord to tell them that housing association managing the property, who has contacted repairs are needed for three years now. I have allowed a reasonable the landlord. She sent her surveyor to the property in August. He time for my landlord to do these repairs, but they have not done was shocked to see how much damp we have. He said it would them. I reported these problems to my landlord: Mould everywhere, need major work done. I have postnatal depression and suffer walls are wet and the flooring wet everywhere. My son now has respiratory problems and hard breathing due to the property from an illness which means I get migraines with stroke-type … symptoms with them. I am on medication. My eldest son also has state, and is now under the hospital for his respiratory infection it’s asthma and rising damp is in the kids room. The damp in my getting worse day by day. The house is all mould and suffocating room is so bad myself and the baby are now sleeping on the floor for me and child—it’s life threatening to me and my son. I have in the front room and the new born is having problems breathing”. contacted the housing at Westminster, the receptionist keeps telling me she will send an urgent email and someone will call me Another mother wrote to me—all these examples are back but not a single person is. Ceiling has fallen down on me and from this year, in the time of covid: my 3 years old in the bathroom…The agency came to try to cover “I am in shock that the council can give properties to people in it up and the man working for the agency when he opened the the state I was given mine especially with a six week old baby. I ceiling roof said this is life-threatening and it needs to get repaired was told last minute after just giving birth that the temporary but the landlord refusing to pay a lot of money as it costs too emergency accommodation I was in needed to be vacated. I was much.” given a flat on the other side of London despite explaining all my Another wrote to me: support system was locally which is important to me as someone “I am writing to inform you of my revolting state of living in who suffers depression and anxiety with a history of attempted this temporary accommodation of mine and the neglect of suicide which has gotten worse since I’ve been moved so far already. A2Dominion. I am a mother of two autistic children under the Now I’m sitting in the living room on the first night age of 10. Both suffer from severe disabilities…My temporary nursing my new born when suddenly there is leaking accommodation has horrid dampness…which has affected our from the ceiling and water is falling fast. The next day a cardiovascular medical condition and has made my children and I contractor comes and tells me this is a previous issue suffer tremendously during the past one year and a half ever since we moved into here. The carpets are damp to the point where you that wasn’t fixed by Westminster and if he hadn’t come cannot keep your feet on the ground for too long while sitting. In today the ceiling would have collapsed on me! He had to addition to rats and mice that were roaming through the flat cut two big holes in the ceiling to dry out the ceiling as a freely my electric meter caused a huge fire in the building which water pipe had been leaking for some time before I was luckily put out...Due to this, I have been without electricity moved in. Now the ceiling in the kitchen is leaking with for almost a week now. water falling through the smoke alarm”. I have spent the last 6 days in the most difficult state. I have not There are more, oh so many more: had any help or support from A2Dominion nor the council. Both are throwing the responsibility on another, while I am staying in a “Dear Ms Buck. I live in a Westminster temporary council flat, home everyday in order to keep my kids warm and fed in this cold one of my 3 children is autistic. My neighbour down stairs shouts winter. We are literally homeless right now and nothing has been and kicks my door because of the leaking water in her flat which done to fix the electricity and replace the meter, regardless of the we reported to the agency A2Dominion”— hundreds of calls and pleas for help that I have made. I have no the housing association responsible for managing the option but to turn to you for help. I am desperate and exhausted. property— My children are struggling and suffering with me. Their medical conditions are a huge obstacle, as they unable to accept change.” “and no one fixed. My kids are scared—especially the autistic child—they can’t sleep and so are doing no good in school”. And another: Another constituent came to me after being referred “I’m writing this email in the hopes you could help me…I’m through the council’s children’s services. Even then— currently in long term temporary accommodation in Newham with my 4 month old baby…I’m from Westminster and have been although Westminster council has now responded to accepted by the council. I’m currently in an unsuitable accommodation this and one or two of the other cases—the council took which…is infested with mice and vermin. I moved in in March 10 months to resolve the problem, despite being told: this year and by the third day I reported the infestation of mice “The mould is so severe because it was left for a very long time and large holes in the bathroom, kitchen and living room. Due to untreated…I can send you a copy of the EH” covid-19 the landlord refused to fill out any holes forcing me to do it myself very unprofessionally and desperately whilst heavily environmental health— pregnant. When Lockdown came to an end the landlord did send “report and at least 40 pictures to outline the severity of mould out two different men…to fill the holes, and they did nothing…I and dampness and how it ate the plastering off the walls. This pressured the housing to help force the landlord to fill the holes mould releases spores into the air which makes everybody inside and it was a back and forth for a couple of weeks resulting in the this place always in hayfever condition. Wehave to keep all windows maintenance team saying ‘the house is 200 years old…there’s 165WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 166WH Accommodation Accommodation [Ms Karen Buck] compared with what is needed, and of the wider context of cuts to social security, local housing allowance, local nothing more I can do’ and ‘The kitchen flooring has water councils and social house building. I hope that I will be damage causing wood decay along the whole flooring for the disappointed and that that is not what the Minister kitchen which brings in rodents from the basement’…now as will say. there’s holes everywhere and I even hear them eat through some holes and they come in…some eat the poison and die in my We need fundamental changes to housing supply and house…I’m stranded alone dealing with this, and it’s worsening housing support in the social security system. We need my postpartum depression and anxiety. I can’t stay in this house proper management of and accountability for the homes another week. Due to lockdown new restriction of staying in that vulnerable and homeless people get stranded in. We other households I am really fighting my depression as I can’t need to strengthen the welfare safety net, remove the even sofa surf due to safety issues. Please, please help us.” benefit cap, reverse the freeze to local housing allowance And the last: and ensure that rents align with the 50th percentile of “In 2018 my family had been placed by Westminster in our market rents. We need urgent legislation to give private current flat which has been deemed unfit to live in and determined renters more security and end no-fault evictions, which to be detrimental to our health on a number of occasions during remain one of the leading causes of homelessness. We our stay (there is black mould/fungus/bacteria covering our walls). need to invest in a new generation of social housing to In addition to this, due to the building being quite literally bent provide families with stable, permanent and affordable out of shape, and slowly collapsing in on us, the windows in the homes. living room are unable to close…making the entire house very cold, especially as we approach winter times. We have lived in Local councils need their homelessness costs to be fully these deteriorating conditions for…2 and a half years now despite funded. Homeless households need to be accommodated it being considered urgent by every inspector that came to inspect locally, except in exceptional circumstances, and the the building saying that we should be rehoused immediately”. routine use of out-of-borough housing must be ended. I have managed to get two or three of these cases Ministers have previously assured us that that will happen. resolved in the last week. These are a selection, and I They have promised us that it should be the exception could have doubled, tripled or quadrupled the examples rather than the rule, but that commitment is honoured of the conditions that people are being kept in. The only in the breach. Capacity and resources need to be harshness of the conditions that people are experiencing made available to ensure that standards of accommodation as they go through the homeless system has to be seen are acceptable. to be believed. I do not understand how local authorities Homelessness is always a hellish experience, and the let this happen. I do not understand how the housing people who endure it are almost by definition already associationsthatareintermediaries—A2Dominion,Genesis, highly vulnerable. It should not be a punishment, but and Stadium housing associations among the worst, in my constituents ask me this question again and again: my own experience; others will have other examples—allow “Why am I being punished for the sin of being homeless?” this to happen. I do not understand how the Government allow it to happen, given the amount of public money Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): I am afraid that there that is being put into this. are a lot of people trying to take part, so if you want me The pressure of numbers is taking its toll. The figures to get you all in, we will have to limit you to three are creeping up every year, year on year since 2011. minutes. I am sorry. Local councils are unequipped to cope with and pay for the homes that are required. Two thirds of all households 2.46 pm that are homeless in Britain—62,670 households—were Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): I thank the hon. placed in temporary accommodation by London local Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) for her very authorities. Even prior to covid-19, London boroughs’ compelling speech and for the personal accounts of her expenditure on homelessness was expected to rise to a constituents. All Members have experience of similar total of £1 billion by 2021-22. Nearly a quarter of this is emails and one-to-one encounters, so I thank her for unfunded by central Government, thereby increasing raising this important issue. I also thank the Minister the pressure on other services. There is no doubt that for the Department’s commitment during the pandemic the pressure of those figures means that the ability to to tackling rough sleeping and trying to end it across manage the quality of the accommodation is undermined, England. Wehave had the highest commitment in funding and the Government are failing to make good on the that I can remember to tackle the issue during the requirement to support these services. Unless the pandemic and enable local councils to house those who Government act on this, the brutal experiences being are sleeping rough, so I thank the Minister for that. endured by my constituents will only continue to worsen. The hon. Lady’sexcellent speech was about the conditions Research from Shelter earlier this year revealed the of temporary accommodation, and I want to focus on explosion of the temporary accommodation industry. temporary accommodation for families. As she said, Between April 2018 and March 2019, councils spent this is particularly a London issue, given the high cost over £1 billion on temporary accommodation—a rise of of living, the high population and the lack of affordable 9% in a year, and 78% in five years. Shelter’s research and social housing. It is something that I saw at first shows that 86% of this money is flowing directly to hand in my previous roles, when I worked as a community private providers, most of whom are unregulated. This outreach worker. I saw families who were living in rat explosion in expenditure has been fuelled by a chronic and cockroach-infested multi-dwelling homes with other lack of investment in decent, genuinely affordable social families. It was a London issue that I saw over and over housing. again. The Minister will, I fear, just tell us how much the I have visited other parts of the UK, including the Government are spending. That is utterly meaningless west midlands, to look at best practice in places where unless there is a recognition of how far short funding falls, we have tackled this problem proactively. Something 167WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 168WH Accommodation Accommodation that I noticed in the west midlands was the approach of Latest figures show that not one homeless person linking housing to employment. Andy Street, the Mayor died from covid-19 in Wales up to 26 June. The chief of the west midlands, has done an excellent job of providing executive of Crisis, Jon Sparkes, said: housing, employment opportunities and transport. As “Only the Welsh Government is committed to putting in place housing is a devolved matter, mainly to the Mayor or comprehensive policies to end homelessness by providing permanent local authorities, it would be worth the Mayor of London homes for everyone in need”. looking at how he can support families who are trapped However, there is so much more to do. The Welsh in temporary accommodation. Government Housing Minister, Julie James, said: I also ask that the Minister consider the high cost of “There’s no easy solution to this. I’ve been clear all the way temporary accommodation in urban areas. Between through we have not solved this problem, but we’re on the right 2018 and 2019, councils spent more than £1 billion on road to making sure people are housed and not sustained on the temporary accommodation. That explosion in expenditure streets.” has been fuelled by a chronic lack of genuinely affordable We must therefore tackle the problems rooted in social housing, and that is particularly true in London. homelessness—poverty, substance misuse and mental This is an incredibly complex issue to tackle, and as I health issues. We need a holistic approach. Therefore, as said it is the devolved power of the Mayor. Unfortunately, we head into winter, which is a challenging period in the expansion of permitted development rights has any year, let along during the pandemic, I ask the inadvertently led to the creation of some low-quality Minister to support the Welsh Government’s endeavours and unsuitable accommodation— to eliminate homelessness—

Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order.

2.50 pm 2.53 pm Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): It is a pleasure to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I congratulate North (Ms Buck) on securing this important debate. the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck). I No civilised country in the 21st century should have represent a very rural constituency, so I suspect there is people living on the streets.Governments of all persuasions a great deal of difference between our two patches, but I have tried to combat the problem of homelessness, with recognise from my constituency a great many of the varying degrees of commitment and success. Despite things she said about addressing rough sleeping and those efforts, it took a pandemic to demonstrate the homelessness. scale and scope of the action needed to eradicate As the virus began, in March, all of us across the homelessness once and for all. House were deeply concerned about the impact it could The UK Government appear to have pledged to end have by closing businesses, driving up job losses and rough sleeping, but it is the Welsh Government who leaving people unable to make their rent and mortgage have developed truly ambitious plans.During the pandemic, payments. Moreover, there were concerns about rough the decisive and compassionate action of councils in sleepers, who lived in close proximity to one another, Wales in partnership with Health, the third sector, and many of whom had pre-existing health concerns registered social housing and voluntary organisations and could have been particularly hard-hit by the virus. to bring people off the streets has saved lives. Homeless That is why I welcome the unprecedented action of people were placed in safe and secure accommodation, both the Government and local authorities across the engaging with local services perhaps for the first time. country to support rough sleepers and homeless people That was all achieved in a few weeks, but providing in the face of covid-19. The Government’s furlough temporary emergency accommodation does not end scheme has protected 9 million jobs and helped safeguard homelessness, so the Welsh Government are determined people’s pay packets, which has helped them keep on to transform that into long-term accommodation. The track of mortgage and rental repayments. However, as second £50 million phase of the Welsh Government’s ever, there is more to be done. We need to help those homelessness programme will therefore provide 2,266 who have suffered so very badly over the year. people in emergency accommodation with long-term With today’s welcome news from the Health Secretary homes,whereastheequivalentUKGovernmentprogramme that the covid vaccine will be rolled out from next week, in England—the £105 million next steps accommodation more thought should be given to how to end homeless- programme—merely suggests in its guidance that housing ness and rough sleeping. First, we need to ensure that provided for homeless people by councils in England those rough sleepers who have been provided with during the pandemic will have tenancies of just two years. accommodation as part of our response to the pandemic Since the start of the pandemic, the Welsh Government are never returned to the streets. The Government’s have allocated three times the funding available in £433 million investment to provide 6,000 safe and long-term England. Councils in Wales have received £10 million to homes for rough sleepers will be invaluable in achieving tackle homelessness, compared with £3.2 million in that. We should be providing rough sleepers with the England, where councils deal with a far greater number wraparound support that they need to tackle the long-term of rough sleepers. Migrants with no recourse to public mental health and addiction problems that some of funds, and those who have sofa-surfed, are included in them may be suffering from. Welsh Government policy, whereas in England that is Evidence from around the world shows that a Housing not the case. The policy in Wales is predicated on the First approach is the best way to help rough sleepers belief that everyone has the right to live in a secure, rebuild their lives off the streets, and the Government permanent home. have taken the initiative in piloting such a project in 169WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 170WH Accommodation Accommodation [Anthony Mangnall] damp and mouldy, as my hon. Friend pointed out, and children develop breathing problems. Families move Greater Manchester, the west midlands and the Liverpool frequently.They change their GP every time,and sometimes city region. I believe it is highly advisable to roll out a their school, and they do not get any choice. And often Housing First programme throughout the rest of the they do not even dare to ask for repairs. country, as it would be beneficial for all those in need of I pay tribute to the Magpie Project in our borough, housing across the country. set up by Jane Williams. It does superb and caring work Secondly, the key to ending homelessness is not just among families in temporary accommodation. Many supporting those already sleeping rough or living without have been hit by the benefit cap. Three quarters have no their own roof over their head, but tackling the long-term recourse to public funds. structural problems in our society that can lead to Will the Minister take forward the two specific things homelessness. Above all, more must be done to ensure that I mentioned—regulation on standards and protections that we can enable everyone to afford to buy or rent for children? their own home. Although my community is blessed with relatively low levels of rough sleeping—that has 2.59 pm not always been the case—the latest count, from autumn 2019, found that just one person was sleeping rough in Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): I appreciate my local area. That is not true—it is undeniably not the continued advocacy by the hon. Member for true. The statistics collected by the Ministry of Housing, Westminster North (Ms Buck). Homelessness is a plight Communities and Local Government on that are wrong, that has no place in our society. In 2018, approximately as local charities will be able to see, so we need to review 726 people died of homelessness in England and Wales. how we are engaging and calculating that data. In Wakefield district, 216 individuals were being housed in short-term shelter in December 2019 after they had My time is almost up. As I said, there is more to be asked for help. It is nigh-on impossible truly to understand done, and I hope that the Government will listen to us the ordeal of being homeless without the experience of on what we have been asking for. being so. Attestations by the Community Awareness Programme in Wakefield note the poor levels of physical 2.56 pm and mental health, which are worsened by a lack of Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Thirty-six years access to support through the GP system. ago, I was a new Newham councillor. My hon. Friend Throughout the covid-19 pandemic, Her Majesty’s the Member for West Ham (Ms Brown), who is in her Government have taken unprecedented steps to provide place, was elected a few years later, but at that time, aid to those who are homeless. On 26 March, the 36 years ago, I was placed in a working party on the Government asked local authorities in England to help borough’s temporary accommodation crisis. We set a ensure that we got everyone in. Shelters and assessment target that everybody should be in a permanent home centres have been set up and made covid-secure for by Christmas, and all 30 households were. It was a rough sleepers. I know I speak on behalf of all Members different world. In June this year 5,574 Newham households, when I commend the herculean efforts made, including including more than 7,000 children, were in temporary block-booking hotel rooms and securing alternative accommodation. It is shocking how far those problems accommodations, such as bed and breakfasts, student have worsened even since I was elected a councillor. accommodation and so on, as well as working to supply How is it that we have allowed things to become so bad? food and medical care and other support, where needed. It would be great to hear from the Minister some The Government have provided £105 million for proposals for reducing those shocking numbers. I suspect shorter-term accommodation and immediate support, that we will not hear those and the problems will carry £91.5 million of which was allocated to 274 local authorities. on getting worse, but given that backdrop, I want to put An additional £161 million will be provided to deliver two points to the Minister. First, will she consider a new 3,300 units of longer-term, move-on accommodation national policy on standards and length of stay in and support. Currently, £150 million has been allocated temporary accommodation? Temporary accommodation to 276 schemes across England, which are expected is not covered by the Homes (Fitness for Human to be delivered by March 2021. The statistics speak Habitation) Act 2018. Landlords are largely unregulated. for themselves. By the end of June 2020 there were There is no limit on how long people can stay temporarily. 98,300 households in temporary accommodation—a Will the Minister take an initiative on that? rise of 14% on June 2019. A study published by The Secondly, will the Minister act to safeguard children Lancet outlined that 266 deaths were avoided during living in temporary accommodation, especially those in spring 2020 by the measures set out by the Government. shared housing? At the moment they have fewer education Over these winter months, a £10 million cold weather rights than other children, and an article in The Lancet fund will enable local authorities to provide self-contained, earlier this year pointed out that they are at high risk of covid-secure accommodation. The Government’sresponse “immediate and long-term effects on growth…health, and brain has been exemplary, but those measures merely alleviate development.” symptoms of homelessness, rather than deal with the Newham has the largest number and highest proportion root problem. If we wish truly to eradicate the plight of of households in temporary accommodation and spends homelessness, we need to enable those suffering from the most on it. The figure was more than £60 million in that horrific ordeal to achieve and prosper, providing 2017-18. One problem is that the borough represented pathways to secure employment, such as paid training by my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster schemes, to financial security, such as providing support North (Ms Buck) is competing with my borough for to set up a bank account, and to permanent shelter, accommodation, and that forces the price up. A lot of such as support to find somewhere to rent. All are vital the housing used is in dreadful condition. Rooms are in achieving that objective. 171WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 172WH Accommodation Accommodation I wish to end by paying tribute to Ernest Hibbert, review for rough sleeping, which brings the total this co-founder of the aforementioned Community Awareness year to £676 million. The six-month moratorium on Programme. Ernest passed away peacefully on Sunday evictions from March to September has also been extended 8 November. He and his wife Elizabeth established the for a further six months. organisation in 1997. It is thanks to their vision, compassion Of the several thousand households recently assessed and energy that the service thrives as much as it does in the veterans community, which is important to me, today, reaching out to help people in need in Wakefield. only 440 were officially recorded as requiring support due In honour of Ernest, I wish us to commit to seeing no to serving in the armed forces—5% of veterans’ families. rough sleepers in Wakefield by 2024. It is not true that veterans are mad, bad or sad, but any figure above 0% is too high. We must sort that out. 3.2 pm In my constituency, the rough sleepers unit does a Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): fantastic job and has reduced homelessness from 31 people How temporary is temporary? Sir Edward, if you had a to 12 since 2019, and the remaining 12 have all been family in front of you at your advice surgery, how would swept up and looked after. The unit aims to have you explain? I would explain that families who were referrals off the streets and into temporary accommodation housed in temporary accommodation two years ago within 24 hours, so I know that that is possible. The have another six months to go. For a family in front of night shelters in Bracknell are run by a fantastic organisation me today, I would say I could not predict, but probably called Pilgrim Hearts Trust. This year, due to covid, it the time would be about five or six years, as long cannot open so the situation is serious. It does a drop-in as things do not get any worse. Temporary, in that vein, centre for meals and day care that includes a mobile is taking the English language to its severe extreme. doctor’s surgery. Again, it can be done. There are 100,000 families—127,240 children—of whom The lived experience of those affected is what really 27,650 families are forced to travel 16 times round the matters. We must do more. It is a case of not just globe, or 400,000 miles, in order to access temporary throwing more money at the problem, but effecting accommodation. That was a figure found by Ross Kemp change through locally focused, effective measures. We in his recent documentary on homelessness. know that more affordable housing is needed in the Where do we go and how do we deal with it? In the right areas. The decision in the recent spending review few minutes I have, I would like to point the Minister to to freeze the value of the local housing allowance will a really interesting email that we received from the hinder efforts to prevent homelessness. I urge the Minister Association of Accounting Technicians, no less, only to press for that decision to be overturned. If we can get last Wednesday, which points out that the spending homelessness relatively under control during the worst review confirmed that the Government would provide pandemic in memory, why can we not do that in 2021 £254 million of additional resource funding to tackle and in perpetuity? Sustained Government funding, backed homelessness in 2021-22, of which £103 million had by good local solutions, remains the key to solving that already been announced. The AAT points to the issue awful problem. of taxing overseas purchasers of properties in the UK. In September 2018 the then Prime Minister, the right 3.8 pm hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), announced Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): The that a stamp duty surcharge of up to 3% would be Government’s current policy on homelessness and imposed on overseas residential property investors, and temporary accommodation is strangely perverse. In spring, that all the money generated would be used to tackle Ministers marshalled all the resources at their disposal homelessness. It was expected to raise £140 million. to all but end rough sleeping and to protect public Six months later,that was watered down to 1%—effectively health. As Dame Louise Casey, then head of the rough an £80 million loss for homelessness projects. Having sleeping taskforce, said: campaigned for the rate to be restored to 3%, the AAT “We just went for it” was delighted when the right hon. Member for Richmond with the Everybody In programme. That proves what (Yorks) (Rishi Sunak), as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, can be done when there is the political will. Now, with announced a return to that during the 2019 general the harsh winter approaching and the virus still at large, election. During the 2020 Budget, however, that was the Government’s policy seems to be “everybody out”. changed to 2%, meaning a £40 million loss. Thousands of people have been forced back on to the Since it was announced in 2018, the rate of surcharge street or into hostels—why? has been 3%, 1%, 3% and now 2%, without ever coming There has been a 78% increase in the number of into force. It is due to be implemented in April 2021. homeless children since 2010. I can only imagine the The only way to deal with homelessness is with more fear, misery and sense of danger felt by someone facing money.This small suggestion will not resolve homelessness, life on the streets for the first time. No wonder Crisis, but making available another £40 million by going back Shelter, St Mungo’s, council leaders, the Royal College to a 3% tax on overseas purchases will help an awful lot of Physicians, the Royal College of General Practitioners of people. and others have spoken with one voice: “We need everybody in too.” I know from working closely with 3.5 pm groups such as SHOC—Slough Homeless Our Concern— James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): On the surface, the London and Slough Run, Slough Outreach and the the current picture of homelessness in the UK seems many local gurdwaras, mosques, temples and churches, relatively positive, but the reality sits much deeper. and from seeing the increase in homelessness casework Some £4.6 billion of non-ring-fenced funding has been in my office, that the crisis is getting worse. I have been given to councils to decide on their own priorities. A contacted by an increasing number of constituents further £254 million was announced in the spending concerned about keeping a roof over their heads—some 173WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 174WH Accommodation Accommodation [Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi] and sewage leaks and things of that kind. When she was rehoused in the borough, it was in a one-bedroom flat, with no recourse to public funds, others unaware of the which means they have to use the living room as a complexities of housing legislation and parents concerned bedroom. She now has two children. Her prospects of about living in cramped conditions with their growing being rehoused in adequate temporary,let alone permanent, children. accommodation, are very low, simply because of the Some 218 households approached Slough Borough lack of housing. Is that a way for anybody to live and Council for homelessness assistance between April bring up their children? and June 2020. On 30 June, the number of households Another typical example is a young man who was in temporary accommodation in Slough was 379. thrown out of home at the age of 16, who has lived in That amounts to 314 children living in temporary hostels and had to give up his sixth form, was sofa accommodation. The recession will undoubtedly force surfing until he outstayed his welcome, got work but many people in Slough who are already living precariously then had to leave work, was ripped off by landlords, has over the edge. suffered punishing anxiety attacks and for the last year I ask the Minister this afternoon to address my two under covid has been sleeping rough. Is that any way to key concerns. Will she provide an emergency programme give a young person a start in life? to get rough sleepers into covid-safe accommodation and will she commit to a major programme of 3.14 pm housebuilding for people on low and medium incomes, Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): I am grateful to be such as nurses, teachers and care workers—the true able to speak in this debate, Sir Edward, and to my hon. heroes of the pandemic? Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck), who speaks with more authority than any of us on this 3.11 pm issue. Newham has the highest rate of homelessness in the Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I cannot do country. We do not yet know how bad it has got this justice to this subject in three minutes, so I am more year, but last Christmas one in every 12 of Newham’s than usually grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for children was homeless. I am going to focus on a few Westminster North (Ms Buck) for setting out the case typical cases today. so well in her opening remarks. Let me tell hon. Members about Katie. Katie works As in other areas of public policy, we do not start on the frontline in our NHS. She has been frantically from a benign position. The past 10 years of austerity trying to find an affordable home, but nothing is available. has included the local housing allowance freeze, the Ever since the last time Katie was made homeless, she benefit cap, a freeze on temporary accommodation has had to rely on her family to house her and her subsidy, shared room rates and discretionary housing two-year-old, but her toddler was getting older, the payments, and all these things have created a crisis in situation with her family became harder and this May, temporary accommodation. Even where work has been regardless of the eviction ban, Katie and her baby were done, such as with rough sleeping and the eviction ban, kicked out. They are sofa-surfing to stay off the street when we come out of the crisis local authorities will and desperate for, in Katie’s words, “somewhere to call need more assistance to cope with what will be an home.” What mum does not want that? additional wave of homelessness. Katie tells me that the only temporary accommodation There are 1,200 households in temporary she was offered was in High Wycombe or Leeds, so accommodation in Hammersmith and Fulham at the Katie and her child have sofa-surfed and have had moment, but I would like the Minister to address the higher risks of infection. They have endured terrible long-term issues as well. Shelter, Crisis and other insecurity and our local NHS faces losing a much-needed organisations say that we need at least 90,000 social frontline worker. It is not just Katie; far from it. Many homes to be built a year and the Government are families have remained stuck in temporary accommodation building not even 10% of that. What is the issue? Is it without any sense of security or comfort, and they have ideological? We have heard Conservative Members say been without a true home for horrifying lengths of time. in this debate that we need more social housing in this I will give just a couple of my cases from this pandemic country. Where is the recipe for providing that, because year. it is the only long-term solution? A teaching assistant has lived with her children in a I will refer to a couple of cases in my constituency, damp, noisy, polluted property, for two and half years not because they are exceptional in any way, but because and counting. A single mum has been living in one they exemplify the typical problems of temporary bedroom with her four-year-old daughter, with damp accommodation. The fact is that this is not a temporary and rats, since 2015—five years and counting. A mum problem—it is often a lifelong problem for people in has been stuck in a two-bedroom flat with her three these situations. children, one of whom is disabled and with complex A mother with a five-year-old came to the attention needs, for eight years and counting. A grandfather has of Hammersmith and Fulham Council five years ago. been living in temporary accommodation with his adult She was housed in Enfield, which may not sound that children and his granddaughter for 14 years and counting. far away, but it was away from her support network, They are all in temporary accommodation. How much and she had to travel to get her kid to school and get to longer? work on time, so consequently she has been late for How much longer do we have to wait for a Government work and was paying additional fees to after-school willing to build social housing at scale, who will not clubs. She was taking time off because the conditions in pinch pennies from the housing support that keeps our the property were so bad; she was dealing with infestations families off the streets. How much longer? 175WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 176WH Accommodation Accommodation 3.17 pm shows that homelessness is not inevitable, and that when Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is a there is the political will to end it great progress can be pleasure to serve under you as the Chair today,Sir Edward. made. It is regrettable that the support shown at the start I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster of the pandemic has not been sustained, and that many North (Ms Buck) who continues to champion the needs of those who had temporary respite are now back on of the most vulnerable in our communities. the streets at a time when the weather is at its harshest and coronavirus is still circulating in the community. When someone comes into politics, they take the power given to them to bring about change. The Minister I pay tribute to Crisis and the Robes Project. They has the pen in her hand and has the power today to work in my constituency, and will be working hard to make a significant difference to all of our communities. bring people in from the cold again over the Christmas We have to see a step change, because over the last period, but I want to focus on the hidden homelessness decade we have seen homelessness and temporary crisis of temporary accommodation. The figures are stark. accommodation use increase on such a scale. This is not The numbers of households in temporary accommodation about bricks and mortar; it is about people’s lives and have been rising steadily since 2011, with 98,300 households their existence. They are challenged day by day by the in temporary accommodation in June this year, including system. 127,240 children. Those families are often in the worst accommodation available, with no stability or security, I call on the Minister to build those houses—not the while councils pay over the odds to exploitative landlords. luxury flats that are going up in my constituency that, quite frankly, nobody can afford to live in. We need to The situation is a direct result of the dysfunctionality look at housing as a human right in a human rights city, of the housing market, particularly but not exclusively such as York. That is my call today. in London, and the Government’s refusal to accept the The Housing Minister has said that we have to evaluate reality of the gap between what the local housing allowance the Housing First programme.It has already been evaluated pays and what landlords actually charge. My constituency by the University of York. Professor Nicholas Pleace covers part of Lambeth and part of Southwark; I have has put that evaluation in place, so there is no excuse to figures from Southwark, but the situation is no different delay. We need that rolling out because it makes a in Lambeth. The local housing allowance shared difference, ensuring that people have the stability of a accommodation rate is £515.10 a month, but the median home and the wrap-around support that is so vital. I rent for a single room is £700—a gap of £184.90 a want to focus on bringing those services together, around month. the individual, to meet their needs. For a one-bedroom flat, the LHA pays £1,146.86 a Some of the funding that the Government have brought month compared with a median rent of £1,350—a gap forward has focused on taking people off the streets. It of £203.14. For a three-bedroom home, the gap between should be about settling people in stability in their lives what the LHA pays and median rent rises to £479.59. and in their new homes. It is a perverse incentive because How does the Minister expect a family on a low income if the money is then withdrawn, because people are no to find that additional rent? That is a very real, practical longer on the streets, then there is not money to invest concern facing thousands of my constituents. The in people’s lives. It is absolutely crucial that we look at Government’s housing support policies simply ignore that to ensure that that money is ongoing. the reality of a housing market with spiralling rents. I draw attention to the York system change network, There is much more to say, including on the which I met yesterday.Weknow that people have complex dysfunctionality of our Dickensian immigration system, lives and needs, and that it is only when agencies come which traps people with no recourse to public funds for together that we can often solve those particular needs years at a time, while providing no timescale, certainty for individuals. In York we have a network of the police, or closure on their applications. This Government, and mental health, community and voluntary sector Tory Governments for the past decade, have utterly failed organisations, the local authority and substance misuse to address our housing crisis, but it must be addressed. services, that is there to break cycles in people’s lives We need to build council homes and social housing at and to work towards complex solutions. We should be speed, but in the short term the Government must fix championing those initiatives in order to drive down the the affordability crisis and reform private renting to give complex issues that surround people when they are security and stability to tenants, and stop so many homeless. people having to endure the misery of temporary accommodation. The Minister has choices when she comes to respond to the debate, and I trust that she will, for once, give real hope that we will solve the homelessness and temporary 3.23 pm accommodation crisis that we are facing in our country. Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): I begin by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for 3.20 pm Westminster North (Ms Buck) for securing this vital Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): It debate. For many Members present, it need not be said is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. how appalling it is that the debate needs to take place. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster Year on year, the number of people facing homelessness North (Ms Buck) on securing this important debate, at Christmas rises, and we are yet to see any change her passionate speech and all the work that she does on from the Government. this issue. More than 67,000 families and 136,000 children The work done by local authorities and voluntary in England spent lockdown trapped in temporary sector organisations with additional funding under the accommodation—that is more than 100,000 children Everybody In campaign at the start of the pandemic who will spend Christmas in temporary accommodation, 177WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 178WH Accommodation Accommodation [Abena Oppong-Asare] (Siobhain McDonagh) set out in chilling terms both the cost and the brutal reality of life in temporary which is often overcrowded and unfit for purpose. We accommodation. My hon. Friends the Members for spend a lot of energy talking about homelessness in Neath (Christina Rees), for Slough (Mr Dhesi), for terms of numbers and statistics. Yet the numbers alone Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter), and for Erith and are not landing, so let me interpret the data and speak Thamesmead (Abena Oppong-Asare), have shown, as about actual people. Children, friends, family members, always, their determination and attention to detail in colleagues, employees and, yes, some of my staff live in showing how their constituents need to be treated. temporary accommodation. Furthermore, thousands My hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West of Erith and Thamesmead constituents are presently Norwood (Helen Hayes), who was instrumental in surviving statutory homelessness. introducing the Homelessness Reduction Act 2017, Let me tell Members the story of one of my constituents, described today the spiralling rents and the impact of a lone parent from Bexley who has been furloughed—a no recourse to public funds that still trap people in change of circumstances that has resulted in rent arrears, homelessness, despite that Act. My hon. Friend the due to delays in housing benefit administration processes. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) highlighted She continually struggles with acute physical and mental how that is not only a problem for London, but across health conditions, to the extent that she is now under the country. So too did Government Members. We have the care of NHS psychiatrists and suffers from chronic heard them today calling for more social housing and pain caused by a spinal condition. for attention to rough sleeping. I respectfully say to the The local authority attempted to discharge its duty Minister that there is a lot of knowledge in this room, into the private sector. However, the property it offered and I really hope she will commit to taking away every was unsuitable on grounds of affordability. When I say single suggestion and every bit of the passion and this sentence, it sounds like it is a relatively straightforward dedication shown by hon. Members across this room in process, with the words just sailing out of my mouth order to prevent homelessness. seamlessly: “the property was unsuitable on grounds of To prevent a crisis of the use of temporary affordability”. But the lived experiences and the reality accommodation, we have to start by saying that it is a behind having to surmount such a challenge are traumatic civilised nation’s moral failing to have anyone on the and exhausting. streets and anyone in so-called temporary accommodation Families such as my constituent’s are really struggling. for anything other than what could genuinely be called My constituent has been struggling to put food on her temporary. It is a moral failing that we have misused table as she was denied a discretionary housing payment. both the words “temporary” and “affordable” to such Her homelessness and struggles have had a surprising an extent that people such as the constituent of my hon. impact on her son, who is just eight years old. He went Friend the Member for West Ham, who actually works to school having soaked up all the stress imposed on the in the NHS, is not able to find accommodation at a household by way of discharge of duties letters and price she can afford. eviction notices. The eviction dated 19 November was Other hon. Members have given us statistics and facts to go ahead smack in the middle of the second lockdown and also case studies. I made a resolution when I first at a time when, according to the Government’s guidelines, came to the House never to repeat what others have evictions were not to go ahead. I wrote to the Secretary already said better, but the Minister needs to heed what of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government has been said here today. By autumn 2019, despite the and he replied: Homelessness Reduction Act, homeless households had “On 16 November we changed the law in England to ensure increased in number to 87,410. By June 2020 there were bailiffs do not enforce evictions”. considerably more, as my hon. Friend the Member for Why,in the midst of a global pandemic, was my constituent Dulwich and West Norwood said, and that included not supported to access increased housing benefit after 127,240 children in temporary accommodation—where being placed on furlough, which caused a 20% reduction they will not get anywhere decent to eat, play, do in wages? Why was she not treated with compassion and homework and study, or have anything approaching a supported to find suitable accommodation, given the family life. As so many Members have said, temporary needs of the family and their household finances? does not seem to mean temporary. That is a moral I contacted Bexley council on the 17th to inform it failing, which I will say again at least once before the and have yet to receive a response. end of my remarks. 3.26 pm The public also need to know that despite the fact that councils are spending £1.19 billion on this temporary Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): It is a accommodation, people are living in the conditions pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. hon. Members have described, with damp, roofs falling I want to start by saying to the Minister that in this in, rodents and poor access to public services. As the room she has some of the best housing campaigners National Audit Office has said, the cost to other public anywhere in the House. She has people with expertise, services of people living in such poor temporary knowledge, passion and dedication—none more so than accommodation includes the cost to the health service, my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North admissions to hospital and admissions to out-patients. (Ms Buck), who has brought this debate to the Minister’s There are also the costs to the policing and justice and to our attention, as she has throughout her time in systems when people fall into extreme difficulties through this place. no fault of their own because they do not have the My right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham money to pay.The Department does not have a thorough (Stephen Timms) and my hon. Friends the Members for system for assessing the additional costs and therefore West Ham (Ms Brown) and for Mitcham and Morden does not currently know the full and true cost of 179WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 180WH Accommodation Accommodation homelessness in temporary accommodation and otherwise. I will write to the Minister with the questions that I It is therefore unable to quantify the benefit to us all of have—there are a lot. However, I should like her to try reducing homelessness. That must change. to answer at least some of them now, if she can. I shall The Children’s Commissioner this year concluded try to sum them up. How will the Minister represent to that living in a B&B has never been appropriate for a other Departments the need for additional support, child but that the problems have been amplified during such as Housing First to deal with homelessness, and covid-19. We have to stop using covid-19 as any sort of other additional support, such as outlawing section 21 cover for any of what is happening. It should have the of the Housing Act 1988—the so-called no-fault evictions opposite effect. Spending time in a B&B during covid-19 provision? Why not do that now? The Opposition have is bad for everyone. It is bad for health and education, said that we would work with the Government to do and it is increasing inequality. I make no apology for that now, under emergency legislation. speaking very much from the heart. Where is the renters reform Bill that the Government The Government showed earlier this year that political promised in the Queen’s Speech? When is it coming? will makes a difference. The Everyone In call made a What steps will the Minister take to reform and reduce difference. It brought people in off the streets, and gave the use of temporary accommodation, so that it is really them somewhere warm, safe and dry to live. Then, temporary and is not used for the 14 years and more however,things unfortunately went backwards,and councils that some of my hon. Friends have talked about today? that were told, “You will have whatever it takes,” found By what date does she hope to have eliminated—not that that did not happen. Unfortunately—I repeatedly reduced, but eliminated—the use of bed and breakfasts asked the Department for accurate figures—people who for anything other than extremely short emergencies, came on to the streets after Everyone In were frequently and never for families with children? Will she ensure not included. that there is Housing First nationwide, as Conservative Members have asked for? Will she commit to high The situation for people with no recourse to public standards on quality and length of stay for temporary funds remained obscure and, as my right hon. Friend accommodation? the Member for East Ham showed in his brilliant work on the Liaison Committee and the Work and Pensions Will the Minister recommend to the Department for Committee, which he so ably chairs, that affected a huge Work and Pensions that, for instance, local housing number of children and families, as well as single people. allowances increase to the average, at least for the life of They were hard-working people who had done their this crisis, and that the mortgage interest loan scheme is best and were contributing to this country, and through brought forward earlier so that people are not waiting no fault of their own they had a sudden catastrophic nine long months before they can get help? Will she consider drop in income and got no help. My right hon. Friend the examples of what the Welsh Labour Government had to explain that to the Prime Minister. I know that are doing to prevent homelessness during this crisis, that is not true of the Minister, and that she understands which my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Christina what no recourse to public funds means. I hope that she Rees) mentioned? Will she commit to ensuring that her will address the issue. Department has good and accurate data on the full cost of homelessness to not only individuals and their families To solve the problem, as I said, we need to accept that but public services and public health? Will the Minister it is a moral failing and that it is fixable. There should be explain to the constituents of my right hon. and hon. some hope. We got hope today from the Secretary of Friends, and to those of colleagues elsewhere in the State for Health and Social Care, and I want the Minister Chamber, what she will do to deal with the quality of to spread some hope as well today—I hope she will be temporary accommodation, as described? Finally, will able to do that—by saying, “Yes, it is a failing, but, yes, she commit to talking to her colleagues, so that they it is fixable,” because it has been demonstrated time and commit to ending the use of expensive, unsuitable and again that political will can provide answers to really downright unsafe temporary accommodation, to solving difficult problems. We need to focus not just on the the underlying problem of supply by building and after-effects and what happens when people end up in retrofitting truly affordable, secure, safe homes, and to temporary accommodation, but on prevention. There fighting to ensure that everybody has somewhere safe must be a relentless focus on increasing the supply and and affordable to live? the true—not pretend—affordability of high-quality, warm, safe, dry, healthy net zero homes. 3.36 pm Ultimately, everyone in this Chamber, wherever in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, country they represent and whatever political party Communities and Local Government (Kelly Tolhurst): It they are in, knows that we have a chronic problem with is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. the shortage of truly safe and affordable homes. That I congratulate the hon. Member for Westminster North must be solved, and it is solvable, because in building (Ms Buck) on securing the debate on this important back better—the language we are all using at the moment— issue, which everybody has been pleased and willing to there is scope to do that. speak about with passion. She has spoken passionately An example of where the Government could have about this topic before, including when we spoke last done better was the long-awaited social housing White week about another element in this sphere. I am really Paper, which was published without any commitment grateful to all right hon. and hon. Members who have to building more social housing. I know that the reason taken the time to attend and to speak on behalf of their for the White Paper was the Grenfell tragedy, and it constituents. I welcome the opportunity to address their was right that the Government committed to a great points. deal in it—to things that had to be there—but the lack May I start by saying that I, too, am an MP who has of a commitment to building more social housing was worked hard for my constituents? I was very pleased to duly noted. take on the role as Minister for homelessness, because 181WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 182WH Accommodation Accommodation [Kelly Tolhurst] that no family is ever without a roof over their head. Although the overall numbers of households in temporary of my involvement prior to being elected as a Member accommodation have been rising, the number of households of Parliament. What I am hearing today is support for with children has remained relatively stable since the a lot of the work that the Government are doing, and a introduction of the Homelessness Reduction Act. However, willingness and commitment in terms of the Government I accept that we must go further. The increase in temporary continuing to work to reach our objectives. accommodation numbers since the Act took effect has It is unacceptable that anyone should have to sleep been almost entirely driven by single households receiving rough. I recognise the incredible achievements in the help that was previously unavailable to them. More last eight months by local councils and the homelessness recently, the increase has also been driven by our action sector—supported by this Government—meaning that to accommodate rough sleepers during the pandemic. in September we had successfully supported more than The Homelessness Reduction Act requires for the 29,000 vulnerable people during the pandemic, nearly first time that local authorities, public services and the 19,000 of whom have been provided with settled third sector work together actively to prevent and relieve accommodation or move-on support. homelessness for people at risk, irrespective of whether I respect the hon. Member for Westminster North they are a family or a single person. That means that greatly, but I will have to disappoint her. I will outline more single people are getting the help they need. They further the funding that this Government have put into might otherwise have been on the streets. Since the rough sleeping and homelessness. Although we say that introduction of the Act, 270,000 households have had this is not just about money, it is also about providing their homelessness successfully prevented or relieved available funding and about what happens on the ground. through securing accommodation for more than six We cannot ignore the unprecedented action that this months. Government have taken over recent months. The hon. Member for Westminster North rightly Our work on rough sleeping is not only world-leading, raised the issue of the quality of temporary accommodation. but has protected hundreds— In 2019, we gave £6.7 million to more than 180 local authorities to boost their enforcement in relation to Ms Buck: Before the Minister moves off that point, quality on the ground. will she explain exactly why, if the Government are spending more money, homelessness has risen by 14% in Siobhain McDonagh: As the Minister will know, the the last year alone? code of guidance from her Department says that councils should not place families outside their borough boundaries, Kelly Tolhurst: I thank the hon. Lady for her except in exceptional circumstances, but we know that intervention. We have spent an unprecedented amount 27,650 families were placed all over the country—most of money, and we are continuing to invest in those of them were from London, and some, I suspect, went pilots and schemes in order to tackle all parts of rough to the Minister’s constituency—because of the problems. sleeping and homelessness. There is a distinction between Will she consider introducing an Ofsted-style regulator what we have done with Everybody In and what we are to ensure that local authorities’ temporary housing doing with Housing First, with regard to our social practices are inspected? housing pilots. We are talking about a vast landscape. We are committed to solving rough sleeping and dealing Kelly Tolhurst: I thank the hon. Lady for that with homelessness. The funding from the Government intervention, and she is absolutely right. I am talking is an incredibly important part of that, and so are the about enforcement on the ground. I appreciate and right interventions on the ground, delivered in the correct accept the issues that she is talking about—I have way. That is something that I have particularly focused frontline experience of them. I am not trying to make on since I have been in this role. excuses, but I have been in post for only two months. The spending review demonstrates the Government’s There are many issues that I want to shine a spotlight commitment to build on the fantastic progress of Everyone on with regard to rough sleeping and homelessness. In and to support rough sleepers and those at risk of That issue is worth investigating and looking at further. homelessness during covid-19. Next year, we are going It has an impact on authorities outside London, which even further and will provide more than £750 million to may be being put under pressure. I am prepared to look tackle homelessness and rough sleeping. That includes at that. the additional funding to support frontline services We have heard stories from hon. Members—they are through the rough sleeping initiative and to enable local not stories, but people’s experiences—about the quality councils to fund their statutory duties to prevent of accommodation that people live in. It is unacceptable homelessness. We are also providing capital funding to that people are living in damp conditions, and that they continue our landmark drive to bring forward thousands are not having their concerns and issues, which are being of homes for rough sleepers. That will support our raised directly with housing associations or landlords, commitment to end rough sleeping in this Parliament dealt with. That is why we gave tougher powers to local and fully enforce the Homelessness Reduction Act 2017. authorities to use. They can fine landlords up to £30,000 in On temporary accommodation, I am absolutely clear penalties, issue rent repayment orders and ban landlords. that we always want to see homeless individuals and The other thing—I have seen this personally since being families moved into settled accommodation as soon as in this role—is that we agreed to review the housing possible and permanently. The action we are taking to health and safety rating system in 2019, which is the increase the delivery of social housing will support that. operational tool that local authorities use to assess I also recognise the important role that temporary accommodation. We have completed the first part of accommodation can play in the meantime in ensuring that, which will cover things such as fire, damp and 183WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 184WH Accommodation Accommodation excess cold in properties. We are commissioning some millions of young people into home ownership. We have more work early next year. It is a highly technical tool, committed to delivering 300,000 new homes every year and I do not know whether Members have come across by the mid-2020s. We will deliver that by committing at in their work with their local authorities, but I am least £44 billion of funding over five years to build more always willing to talk further with them about it. homes. We have extended the current £9 billion affordable Where temporary accommodation is required local homes programme to March 2023, to secure the delivery authorities have a duty to ensure that it is suitable for of homes that would otherwise have been lost due to the applicant and all the members of the household covid-19. This programme will deliver around 250,000 who would normally reside with and who might reasonably affordable homes. be expected to reside with them. Consideration of whether Andy Slaughter: I am glad the Minister has come on accommodation is suitable will require an assessment of to talk about mass house building programmes, but will all aspects, and the location of the accommodation will she specifically address social housing? There are really always be, and should be, a relevant factor. We are clear good social housing estates in my constituency. Some that local authorities should, as far as possible, avoid were built by charities 150 years ago or as “homes fit for placing households out of their boroughs. However, in heroes”. Others were built as garden estates or through some areas where there is a limited supply of suitable slum clearance. Some were even built by the Labour accommodation, we are aware that that is happening on council in the 1980s and 1990s, which I can take some of occasion, as Members described. That is often done to the credit for. Where are the new quality estates of place households in temporary accommodation, but hundreds and thousands of units of social housing? that should really be a last resort. Housing authorities What are her plans for that? have a continuing obligation to keep the suitability of accommodation under review and to respond to any Kelly Tolhurst: The hon. Gentleman makes an important relevant changes in circumstances that may affect suitability. point about social housing, but we must also accept that On request, applicants may ask for review of the housing within the realm of affordable housing there are different authority’s decision that the accommodation offered to categories: social rented, shared ownership and affordable them is suitable. rent. I know that he accepts that when we are talking about a national problem and challenge, there are different Siobhain McDonagh: On that point, can I raise a needs and drivers in different parts of the country. It is small example? Councils all over south London were important that in our drive to deliver on those numbers, using a converted warehouse in my constituency. When local areas can have an impact to ensure we get their we approached Bexley council and said, “Do you know needs right and deliver the properties and accommodation that you are placing your families in the middle of an that are required on the ground, which may not be the industrial estate?” it said, “We wouldn’t do that. We just same in different parts of the country. We are committed never checked it.” It is not that councils do not want to to that. do these things; it is that they are overwhelmed. If We have launched the successor programme of councils have 5,000 families in temporary accommodation, £11.5 billion. I will not apologise for talking about they are not doing any checking of the temporary money, because it is a key part of the delivery of our accommodation, because they simply cannot manage objectives and being able to build more homes. The it. Unless councils have a regulator that inspects them £11.5 billion affordable homes programme will deliver and forces them to do this, it is not going to happen. up to 180,000 additional affordable homes, if economic conditions allow. At least 10% of that delivery will be Kelly Tolhurst: If Members have particular concerns used to increase the supply of much-needed specialist about local authorities, such as the concern the hon. or supported housing. Lady has mentioned, I am more than happy to meet Stephen Timms: I welcome the Minister’s agreement them and to take those concerns up personally. However, to look at the idea of a regulator. Will she consider the it is true that local authorities have the powers I set out, idea of setting standards for temporary accommodation and we must all work together so that they are used on for that regulator to monitor? the ground. The Government have been clear that the long-term Kelly Tolhurst: As I have outlined, we have a lot of use of bed and breakfast accommodation for families opportunities to look at how much further we can go with children is both inappropriate and unlawful, and and for further intervention. As I have said many times we are determined to stop this practice. To help local since I have been in this role, I am open-minded and I authorities deliver their new duties under the Homelessness will look at ways in which we can tackle the issue that Reduction Act, the Government created a team of we face. However, I must emphasise that I do not specialist advisers with expertise in the homelessness recognise the characterisation that this Government are sector to support and challenge local authorities in not moving forward. We are taking great steps in tackling tackling homelessness in their area, at the same time as those issues. We are announcing funding and talking supporting councils to deliver a transformation in their about the biggest house building project in decades. I homelessness services. This team of specialists has also believe that we are taking our responsibilities incredibly helped local authorities to deliver a 28% reduction in seriously. the number of families housed in bed and breakfast Thangam Debbonaire: The Minister is being incredibly accommodation for longer than six weeks. generous in giving way. Does she accept that whatever is As many hon. Members have mentioned, a key part ahead in future decades, her party has been in charge of achieving our ambition to reduce homelessness and for the past decade, so they must take some responsibility end rough sleeping will be building the homes this for how we have ended up where we are today? country needs, closing the opportunity gap and helping [Interruption.] 185WH Homelessness and Temporary 2 DECEMBER 2020 Homelessness and Temporary 186WH Accommodation Accommodation Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): I remind the Minister and effectively introduced a significant package of welfare. to leave a reasonable amount of time at the end. Those measures include increasing universal credit and working tax credit by £1,040 a year for 12 months, and Kelly Tolhurst: Thank you, Sir Edward. I recognise significant investment in local housing allowance of that this Government are responsible for ensuring that nearly £1 billion at the 30th percentile of those rates. we are able to develop policies and tackle some of the Obviously, the discretionary housing fund payments challenges this country faces. However, I would like to were made available and, in a short time, Ministers in talk about what we are doing, what we have done and DWP will be able to make those decisions. what we will continue to focus on. We could talk about what successive Governments have and have not done. I 3.57 pm am speaking as Minister today about what we are doing moving forward. Throughout the pandemic, we have Ms Buck: We could have had a whole day of debate provided unprecedented support to ensure that the most on this important and wide-ranging subject. We heard a vulnerable in our society are protected and our communities number of superb speeches. I hope that we will return are kept safe. to this because a number of questions remain to be answered by the Minister. The cold, brutal and inescapable Christina Rees: Will the Minister give way? fact is that we are going backwards. We are going backwards on homelessness. It has risen by 14% in a Kelly Tolhurst: I will not give way now. I take issue year and by half in a decade. Rough sleeping has with the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) when he doubled in a decade. says that the Everyone In campaign has stopped—I do not recognise that. The ongoing Everyone In campaign Everyone In showed that the rough sleeping problem has been a huge success and we are determined to can be tackled. It ended and we now have people back ensure that people supported during the pandemic do on the streets. Local councils should not place people not return to the streets. out of borough, but they are. What is the Minister going to do about it? Two thirds of my homeless households The Next Steps accommodation programme provides are placed out of borough. Local authorities should not vital funding to help people move on from emergency be placing them in temporary accommodation in the accommodation. In September,£91.5 million was allocated conditions that we heard about in my examples and to 274 councils across England to pay for immediate others, but they are. We have a proposal to do something support for those individuals. about it. Will the Minister take that up? In October, we announced the allocation to local The Government can talk about how much they have partners to deliver long-term move-on accommodation. spent. They have cut housing support, social housing, More than 3,300 new long-term homes for rough sleepers assistance for renters, and the local housing allowance. across the country have been approved, subject to the They cut the social security budget by £9 billion in 2015 due diligence, and backed by £150 million. In response alone. That is why we are in the state we are in and why to the period of national restrictions, the Prime Minister 1.1 million people are on council housing waiting lists. announced last month the Protect programme—the next We have not heard answers; we have just what is being step in our ongoing targeted support for rough sleepers. done. It is clearly failing. It provides £15 million to support the areas that need it most to address housing and health challenges for rough Can we meet the Minister? Can we return to this issue sleepers throughout the winter months. That is on top of and take forward the Opposition’s positive proposals to the £10 million cold weather fund that we are providing find a way to help our desperate homeless constituents? for all councils for covid-secure accommodation this winter. Question put and agreed to. We have supported renters to ensure that they can Resolved, continue to afford their housing costs. The Government That this House has considered homelessness and temporary have put in place a package of support. We have quickly accommodation. 187WH 2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Lung Cancer Pathway 188WH

Covid-19: Lung Cancer Pathway Then there is the inevitable weight loss, loss of appetite and puffing up of the face from steroids. After being reduced by one course of chemotherapy, the cancer [SIOBHAIN MCDONAGH in the Chair] comes back with a vengeance and quickly spreads to many parts of the body. The family feel helpless and [Relevant document: e-petition 552734, Ensure access to just want to do everything they can to help support the treatment and screening for all cancer patients during patient and show their love. The patient is brave and covid-19.] more concerned about the impact on their children than on themselves. The pain management and care from the 4.3 pm GPs and district nursing team is exceptional. Eventually, (Halton) (Lab): I beg to move, in just 48 hours, matters take a turn for the worse. On the final day, in a matter of hours, the patient slips into That this House has considered the effect of the covid-19 unconsciousness. The end comes, just over six months outbreak on the lung cancer pathway. from diagnosis. The family feel numb, and the intense The effect of the covid-19 outbreak on the lung grief and sadness take over. This is the reality of lung cancer pathway is of real concern and has been brought cancer. into sharp focus by the UK Lung Cancer Coalition’s report, “Covid-19 Matters”. I will refer to that report as Lung cancer is the leading cause of death in the UK. well as to discussions with Martin Grange, Professor Approximately 35,000 people die every year with lung Mick Peake OBE and Dr Robert Rintoul from the cancer, which is more than the figure for breast cancer coalition. and bowel cancer combined. Despite the high mortality associated with lung cancer, it is not the most common When we discuss health matters in Parliament, we cancer in the country. Breast cancer is the most common often focus on policies, funding and statistics. Of course, cancer but is generally diagnosed earlier—by stage those are important, and I will discuss them later, but 2—resulting in a much higher survival rate. That is not when we speak about a specific disease that most people the case for lung cancer. Some 49% of lung cancer will have little knowledge of, we should explain its patients are diagnosed at stage 4. Late diagnosis is the impact on patients and their loved ones. In doing that, I main reason why lung cancer is the cause of most will share a real example of a lung cancer case. The cancer deaths in the UK. Patients present so late because patient concerned had a persistent cough for a few symptoms do not appear until stages 3 or 4 weeks. After prompting from their family, they went to see the GP. The GP prescribed some medication and Like other cancers, the earlier the detection, the more advised them to come back in two weeks if the cough likely the survival. Only 19% of lung cancer patients persisted. It did. The GP sent the patient for an X-ray will survive beyond one year if they are diagnosed when and, the next day, called the patient in to see him. It did the disease has spread. We know that the people most not look good—there appeared to be a large tumour in likely to suffer with lung cancer are 55 and over. They the right lung, and it had spread. are likely to live in an area with high pollution levels and to have been a smoker at some point in their life. As The patient was given an urgent referral to the local the lungs are so large, symptoms often become apparent acute hospital. Tests were done, and they confirmed only in the latter stages, which results in small tumours, stage 4 small cell lung cancer, which had also spread to cancerous or benign, having no instant impact on the the rib, liver and lymph glands. The consultant told the person. It is only when the tumour grows larger that it family as sensitively as he could that it was terminal and begins to affect the lungs’ ability to function, which is that, at best, the patient would have six to nine more months when and why the coughing begins. Something as simple of life. The oncologist said he wanted the patient to try as a cough is often the first symptom when a patient some chemotherapy, but it had risks. If a patient gets sees their GP,but they might be sent away with antibiotics. an infection, it could cause serious complications. As symptoms present so late, the speed of diagnosis is Unfortunately, the patient developed an infection and of the utmost importance. As we exit the pandemic, it is was rushed to hospital the following day, very poorly likely that we will see a backlog of lung cancer cases. and in great pain. The hospital gets the pain management wrong. The patient is admitted, but it is another 24 hours before the James Daly (Bury North) (Con): The hon. Gentleman pain management team sees the patient to get control of is giving a very powerful and articulate description of the situation. A “no resuscitation” form is signed, but the appalling disease that is cancer. The petition that the patient recovers from the infection and goes home. forms the basis of today’sdebate comes from my constituent However, more infection occurs in the lung. The lung Andrew Jenkinson, whose wife Emma sadly died of collapses and the infection gets worse, filling the lung brain cancer during the pandemic. His concern regards with pus, and the smell is awful. The patient must go to the ongoing issue of patients receiving cancer treatment another hospital to have a drain inserted into their during the difficult period that we are in. Will the hon. chest, but it does not always drain the pus in the way Gentleman join me in paying tribute to Mr Jenkinson intended, so the patient needs to return to the hospital for the tireless work he has done to bring this issue to on several occasions to have the drain looked at. As the people’s attention not only at the local level in my lung has filled up with so much fluid, it occasionally constituency of Bury North, but nationally? needs to be drained by the brilliantly caring specialist nurse practitioners. Despite all that, the patient finds Derek Twigg: I will of course paytribute to Mr Jenkinson, some inner strength in the final few weeks and manages and I offer him my condolences on his loss. The hon. a bit of travel to tick off a couple of things on their Gentleman raises a very important point about the bucket list. They then give a knowing nod to the family impact of the pandemic on cancer treatment and survival, to say, “I assured you that I could do it.” and I will shortly address that in more detail. 189WH Covid-19: Lung Cancer Pathway2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Lung Cancer Pathway 190WH

[Derek Twigg] unreasonable to suggest that people out there could have been suffering with, and potentially died from, It is vital that we do not take risks with people’s lung cancer during the pandemic without any diagnosis health and that we ensure that a proactive approach is or treatment. They could also have presented too late. It taken. There is widespread concern that, during the is vital that people who have had a cough for longer covid-19 pandemic, there have been too few face-to-face than three weeks see their GP. appointments. Lung cancer experts have told me that There was a staggering 75% drop in the number of they believe that face-to-face appointments are important patients urgently referred to lung cancer specialists during for referring people for urgent fast-track checks, and the first wave of the pandemic. During that time, 55% of that they should resume as soon as possible. GPs need UK lung cancer specialist nurses or team members were to see patients and patients need to know that they are redeployed or unable to work as a result of covid-19. It receiving a full and thorough examination when they is estimated in the UK Lung Cancer Coalition’s“Covid-19 present to their doctor with problems. Matters” report that at least one third of lung cancer My constituency has one of the highest lung cancer patients have already died since the beginning of the rates in the country. It is also a hotspot for other pandemic. There is also a chance that some of those respiratory diseases such as chronic obstructive pulmonary deaths were labelled as covid-19 due to similar symptoms. disease and asthma. Widnes and Runcorn are old industrial towns that are famous for their former Imperial Chemical The Government should heed the advice of the UK Industries plants. Many of the older generation suffer Lung Cancer Coalition and pilot a “Be clear on lung from the pollution that they inhaled as children and cancer and covid-19” campaign to increase awareness young adults. Those people, who were also encouraged of potential lung cancer symptoms and increase the to smoke in the 1950s and 1960s, are most likely to confidence of the public across the UK to engage with suffer from lung cancer. Simply, the situation that they the healthcare system early. The UK Lung Cancer find themselves in, through an accident of birth, puts Coalition also wants national NHS bodies to support them at a higher risk of developing lung cancer. the resumption of lung cancer screening programmes at the earliest opportunity. When will they resume? There It is not widely known that people who have never was a report in the Health Service Journal yesterday of a smoked can also be the subject of the disease. In fact, shortage of equipment and staff. non-smoker lung cancer is the eighth biggest cancer killer in the country and is responsible for about 6,000 The UK Lung Cancer Coalition pushed to increase deaths a year—I was shocked to find that out. We have the five-year survival rate from 16.2% in 2017 to 25% by come to believe that only people who have smoked can 2025. It felt that target was achievable, but now believes develop lung cancer, but that is simply not the case. that is unattainable by 2025 because of the pandemic. It In an article for the Journal of the Royal Society of is clear that the pandemic has had, and will continue to Medicine, Anand Bhopal, Michael Peake, David Gilligan have, a detrimental effect on lung cancer patients. and Paul Cosford discuss never-smoker lung cancer, Lung cancer patients are also at particular risk of which they note is increasing in absolute and relative contracting viral infections such as covid-19 because of terms compared with the decline in smoking. Their their underlying condition and the immunosuppression research shows that, although second-hand smoking is associated with many lung cancer treatments. The Health a contributing factor, it is not the main reason for that. Service Journal reported yesterday that, since the start They also note that never-smokers feel a stigma about of the financial year, two-week wait referrals for lung their diagnosis. Wemust work to destigmatise lung cancer, cancer stand at 18,400, down 42% from 32,000, in the particularly as the number of never-smoker patients same period last year. rises. At the same time, publicity campaigns would help Paula Chadwick, the chief executive of the Roy Castle to raise the profile of that silent killer among never-smokers. Lung Cancer Foundation, told me that since the start of As we know, there has been some good progress in the the pandemic it has seen the requirement for support battle against second-hand smoking. significantly increase. Calls to its Ask the Nurse helpline have risen by 93%, with patients and carers understandably [YVONNE FOVARGUE in the Chair] anxious, with questions about shielding, diagnosis and It is not only never-smoker lung cancer patients who treatments. Recognising the effect of covid on lung cancer, need to be destigmatised, but smokers and ex-smokers, the foundation took action, accelerating and extending who can feel blamed for having lung cancer. As I said, its activity for the Lung Cancer Awareness Month decades ago—for a generation of people—it was acceptable campaign. It also launched the Still Here campaign, to smoke. There needs to be more support and positive with the aim of increasing awareness of the disease and encouragement to quit. The message should ultimately symptoms—as the foundation says, for example, a cough be that it is better to be safe than sorry. does not just mean covid—and encouraging those with GPs need to make more referrals for chest X-rays to symptoms to contact their GP. increase the chance of early diagnosis. They should Going forward, we need a strategy that gets us back screen patients to target those most at risk, and the on target to achieve the five-year survival rate of 25% set Government should provide them with more resources. by the Lung Cancer Coalition. We need campaigns to X-rays are relatively inexpensive and quick for the NHS encourage people to visit their GP if they have symptoms to perform. They are often available in the local community, of lung cancer, especially if they live in high-risk areas. as is the case in my constituency, so they cause little if The battle to end lung cancer will be a long and painful any inconvenience to the patient. journey. Every year that we fail to reach the 25% target, The pandemic will have adversely affected the detection people will be dying who would have had a longer life. of lung cancer. As we know, a new continuous cough is Memories that could have been made will be taken away. one of the main symptoms of covid-19. It is not Families that could have been spared grief will have to 191WH Covid-19: Lung Cancer Pathway2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Lung Cancer Pathway 192WH endure the pain of losing a loved one. That needs urgent We know there have been challenges and the pandemic action, before that progress turns out to have been made has thrown up things we never dreamt we would be in vain. dealing with. Will my hon. Friend offer some assurance In summary, lung cancer should be a top priority as that the issues that Mr Jenkinson highlights in his we move out of the pandemic. A shocking 75% fall in petition are being addressed and that there are positive urgent referrals is deeply worrying. We must ensure that signs going forward? urgent referrals are at the pre-pandemic level as soon as possible. Weneed the return of face-to-face consultations, Jo Churchill: I will indeed come to that, and hopefully so that patients can have confidence in the treatment give him and others the reassurance that we are focusing they are receiving and the right diagnosis. We need to hard on making sure that we not only deliver, but learn ensure that places such as Halton, which has a high from the pandemic. That was highlighted in the Lung prevalence of lung cancer,are prioritised for a programme Cancer Coalition report as well. Where we can make of targeted screening and chest X-rays. improvements to speeding up delivery of diagnoses or That would mean targeted campaigns, such as those treatment, we need to make sure that we do so. suggested by the UK Lung Cancer Coalition, to encourage those at risk to see their GP, while also encouraging Lung cancer is one of the country’s most invidious GPs to take a more cautious approach, when someone cancers and it is important that it is diagnosed as early in an at-risk group presents with a cough, in the years as possible, for treatment to be successful. As the hon. and months to come. Member for Halton highlighted, it is one of the worst cancers for being diagnosed too late, largely at stage 4, 4.18 pm and it has often spread. The challenge then is that treatment options are reduced because of the grade of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health the cancer. and Social Care (Jo Churchill): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Fovargue. I congratulate When someone does present, it is vital that they are the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) on securing referred swiftly for further diagnostics, remembering the debate and sharing patients’ stories, showing not that we are in a pandemic with a disease that attacks the only the huge care delivered by the NHS workforce but respiratory system as much as anything. I have stood the challenges for patients, as they struggle to get a here talking about teenage cancers and diagnostics and diagnosis and navigate the system. In the patient’s story treatments already this week. Not all cancers are the that the hon. Gentleman articulated, there was already same; they all need a bespoke approach. It is important spread: not only was the disease at stage 4 but was to remember that. metastatic, so affected different sites in the body. I spoke to a thoracic surgeon at the cancer hub All these things pose a challenge,and the hon. Gentleman during the summer. He explained to me in some detail very articulately laid out the challenges of late diagnosis the challenges, but also the opportunities now before us. and how we can improve. The UK Lung Cancer Coalition I thank the cancer workforce for all that they have done report articulated how we must not lose the progress through the pandemic and their continued effort to that we have seen over the past 10 to 15 years, but must restore services. It has been a herculean effort and they absolutely focus on the aim to extend survival up to have really flexed the service, joining together in cancer 2025. I hope I can reassure him that the initial measures hubs and ensuring that areas are covid-secure for patients. that we took at the beginning of the pandemic, because Part of the challenge is to encourage patients to come we did not know what we were dealing with, have not forward for tests. If someone has a persistent cough, or been the focus since June, when we began to refocus and signs of other cancers, they need to do something double our efforts on trying to ensure that cancer about it. patients can have full access to services. I spoke in the debates yesterday and this morning, There are still some challenges. I have had conversations and I know only too well the devastation that Mr Jenkinson with thoracic surgeons. There are particular challenges must be feeling. The particular concern with lung cancer with the trajectory of this disease, because of where it is is the overlap with covid-19 symptoms.That was highlighted on the body and some of the aerosol-generating procedures in the Lung Cancer Coalition report and by a plethora that are needed in diagnosis and so on. I can say to the of clinicians. To that end, we have updated 111 protocols. hon. Member frankly and honestly that we are aware of If somebody has received a negative covid test but has a those issues and we are working hard to get back not just persistent cough, it may indicate lung cancer and they to where we were, but, as I think Professor Peake said, are directed to appropriate clinical care. One challenge to a normal that is better than what we had at the start. has been a sustained fall in people coming forward for I also pay tribute to the constituent of my hon. lung checks, with the number of people seeking checks Friend the Member for Bury North (James Daly), Andrew at only 76% of pre-pandemic levels. This is about ensuring Jenkinson, and add my condolences for the sad loss of that we encourage people to come forward, driving his wife. I congratulate him on his energy in campaigning. forward campaigns such as the Greater Manchester It is often the biggest tribute someone can give to a Cancer Alliance and the Northern Cancer Alliance’s person they love, to try to drive forward and make campaign “Do It For Yourself”. Ensuring that people things better for others. are aware of the signs and symptoms is really important, and has an impact on the number of lung cancers James Daly: I thank the Minister for those kind diagnosed and treatments started. I cannot stress enough comments, which will mean a lot to Mr Jenkinson. His that if individuals do not come forward, we cannot get petition is titled: them into the optimal pathway, which has shown real “Ensure access to treatment and screening for all cancer patients improvements in how we can help people through their during Covid-19”. cancer journey. 193WH Covid-19: Lung Cancer Pathway2 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: Lung Cancer Pathway 194WH

[Jo Churchill] The focus on recovery has been on embedding the use of hypofractionated treatment. In addition, the NHS is I was pleased with the £150 million of capital funding supporting providers to accelerate the delivery of stereotactic issued to regions in October to invest in diagnostic ablative body radiotherapy for non-small cell lung cancer equipment such as MRI and CT scanners. Again, that and oligometastatic indications, starting with the treatment was very much called for. I know that instant referral to of non-small cell lung cancer. In some cases, that is an a CT scan is an objective of the report, but getting the alternative to surgery. Again, I think the report picked equipment so that we can start to deliver quicker routes up on that. The challenge is that if someone gets is part of the issue. The further £325 million for new covid-19 at the same time as they are having the surgery, diagnostic equipment in the spending review, once we it dramatically increases the mortality rate. know exactly how it is going to be allocated, will, I It was right to react at speed. Where clinicians say, hope, result in more delivery of diagnostics into cancer “We need to be doing it this way,” we have tried to give care. It is vital that we use that money to maximise the direction so that they can. Individuals can safely go equipment in as many places as possible so that individuals to their GPs. If people have worrying symptoms that can be treated as rapidly as possible. could be cancer, GPs are open for business and ready to We know that access to earlier diagnostic screening help patients. It is about ensuring that the “Help us help improves clinical outcomes and that the late stage is you” campaign from earlier in the year delivers and gets really one of the challenges. That is why I am really more people coming through the door so that we can pleased to see the hugely successful pilots of the targeted treat them quicker. lung health check programme rolled out. Those pilots offered places such as supermarket car parks and lorries Derek Twigg: Will the Minister give way? where people could easily access a check, particularly in Jo Churchill: Yes, of course. Are we allowed the extra areas of high prevalence or high inequalities, making it minute or two, Ms Fovargue? as simple as possible for somebody to get a check. There were dramatic improvements in those attending and Yvonne Fovargue (in the Chair): I do not think so, no. huge upturns in the number of people diagnosed. The pilots were paused due to covid-19, but I am really keen Derek Twigg: Just on the issue of GPs, it is important that we turbo-charge them now that we have them back that they see these types of patients face to face. on track, so that they operate more broadly as soon as is safely possible. The programme will be rolled out to Jo Churchill: Indeed, and GPs stand willing and 23 clinical commissioning groups, focused on areas with ready to see those patients and give them care. Ensuring some of the highest rates of mortality from lung cancer. that they can refer quickly has been part of this drive. Because I am short of time, I will not repeat what the The cancer recovery taskforce, led by Professor Peter hon. Member for Halton said, but we know that we Johnson and involving cancer charities, clinicians and have regional variation, and we need to target more other expert stakeholders, is also driving to meet some effectively for lung cancer where we have those problems. of the objectives to which the hon. Gentleman alluded: It is important that we do that geographically in the ensuring that we get people into treatment as quickly as light of the need to minimise trips to the hospital, possible, that systems and pathways are clear and particularly for people who may be more vulnerable to understandable for the patient and that we do see that covid-19. Radiotherapy services have made use of fewer capacity rise. fraction protocols as evidence has emerged. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). 195WH 2 DECEMBER 2020 Broadband Rollout: Devon and 196WH Somerset Broadband Rollout: Devon and Somerset In November 2014, Connecting Devon and Somerset launched its first invitation to tender for phase 2, but cancelled it the next month. In 2015, CDS began 4.31 pm negotiations with BT Openreach to hand it all phase 2 contracts. Those negotiations then collapsed: BT said Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I beg to that CDS was not prepared to pay enough money, and move, CDS claimed that BT was not investing enough of its That this House has considered the rollout of broadband in own. There was great history between both organisations. Devon and Somerset. I imagine the fault was on both sides, but that is a real problem. I want to start by speaking about the importance of broadband. Covid-19 has accelerated the need for faster Further on, in December 2016, five phase 2 contracts broadband connections. Whether it is for online voting were awarded to Gigaclear, and one in north Devon was in Parliament, meeting on Zoom or online shopping, awarded to Airband. I will put my hand on my heart we are more reliant than ever on the internet. Even and say that I was happy to bring in Gigaclear, but I have taught myself how to use Zoom—you will not listen to what happened next: in September 2018, CDS realise what that involved, Ms Fovargue. Doing Zoom suspended all five Gigaclear contracts after Gigaclear meetings in the office or at home on the farm has had requested an extension. There is no doubt that Gigaclear the added benefit of my being able to put up the Devon overstretched and was under-capitalised, but, again, flag behind me. that extension request beyond the completion date of 31 December 2020. Now we would think that that date Living on a farm, I am fortunate to have been connected was quite close, would we not, Minister? through a fibre-to-the-premises connection in the last In December 2019, after cancelling the Gigaclear few weeks, but I want all my constituents in Tiverton contracts, CDS launched another tendering process to and Honiton to have the same. Unfortunately, the rollout award the phase 2 contracts. The announcement was of broadband has been anything but superfast and too meant to be made last month, but we are still waiting many people do not have access to superfast connections. for it—all the time, there are delays. Instead of blaming Nationally, 95% of premises can receive a superfast other people for their failures, we need full transparency broadband speed, but in Tiverton and Honiton the from those at Connecting Devon and Somerset, and we figure is just 82%. We are 627th out of constituencies in need the Minister to whip them into shape. I know that the UK, and we are 9th lowest in England for superfast the Minister has put someone from his Department on availability. In Bampton, just 60% of properties have the CDS board, but he ought to take over the board if superfast broadband access. In Beer, it is just 68%. In he wants to make any difference. I do not believe in Kilmington, Colyton and Uplyme, it is just 39%. taking prisoners, as the Minister knows, and I have no Two other constituencies in Devon—Torridge and intention of taking prisoners today, because I have lived West Devon, and Central Devon—have even lower superfast through all this. I actually supported CDS in the past, broadband speeds available than Tiverton and Honiton. but it has not delivered. And I expect that my hon. Friends the Members for North Throughout the process, there has been great concern Devon (Selaine Saxby) and for East Devon (Simon Jupp) about value for money. I am glad that we have a will probably say that the connection there is not brilliant. responsible local council in Devon that always thinks It is bound to be brilliant in Totnes, of course. carefully about taxpayers’ money, but because of the I appreciate that the constituencies in Devon and delays over the last eight years, constituents have had no Somerset are rural, but the Government have been option but to pay for alternatives. Business and residents making promises on this matter for years. In 2010, when have had to pay Openreach themselves to move into the I first became an MP,the coalition Government promised 21st century, forming community fibre partnerships. I that the UK would have the best superfast broadband pay great tribute to those who have done so and to the in Europe by 2015. The UK is currently 13th in Europe, Government for putting forward the voucher system. behind Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. In 2015, my We have had other entrants into the market, such as right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Jurassic Fibre, which has connected a lot in Honiton Ruislip (Boris Johnson), who is now the Prime Minister, and Axminster and has done a good job. Great companies arrived in Parliament and quickly became co-chair of such as Jurassic Fibre are trying to connect people with the all-party parliamentary group on broadband and faster broadband because the local government scheme digital communication. He will know more than most is failing to act quickly enough. Of course, as we connect that the rollout of broadband has been far too slow, all those industrial states and take out the bigger sections, complicated and bureaucratic. In fairness to the Prime we are also making it more expensive to deliver the Minister, he has put resources in to put that right. whole project. Every year, as we delay, it basically gets In Devon and Somerset, we have seen Connecting more expensive. Devon and Somerset promising—again—the world for Even if CDS did manage to announce new phase 2 years, but consistently missing its own deadlines, avoiding contracts this side of Christmas, we have already been scrutiny and then putting out press releases about how told that there is a six-month implementation period. fantastically well everything is going. I am afraid there How much longer an implementation period do we is very little credibility left. In 2012, £27 million of state need, Minister? We have had eight years already! Then, aid funding was provided by the Government to fund the contracts will take at least four years to complete, the Connecting Devon and Somerset phase 2 rollout of taking us to 2024. Is that acceptable, Minister? Was the superfast broadband, and we were all very excited by it. whole point of cancelling the Gigaclear contracts not That was eight years ago, and there has not been a great that December 2020 was too late? Now we are talking deal of progress since. about 2024. 197WH Broadband Rollout: Devon and 2 DECEMBER 2020 Broadband Rollout: Devon and 198WH Somerset Somerset [Neil Parish] and more than 300,000 homes and businesses have decent broadband. CDS has nearly 5,700 broadband Surely, the system is far too bureaucratic and slow. I vouchers out on the streets, which is 7% of all UK know that this is very politically incorrect, but was it vouchers, I understand. not George Bernard Shaw who said, “If you lose one Despite all that has been achieved so far, there is still wife, that’s acceptable. If you lose two, that’s careless”? a great deal more to be done. The mistakes that my hon. How many contracts does CDS need to lose before it is Friend highlighted are all too apparent. It is still the considered careless? Like I say, it is all terribly politically case that too many homes and businesses across our incorrect, but hon. Members can see the point I am counties do not have access to decent broadband speeds, making. and the pandemic has shown even more clearly that What more can be done to bring CDS to heel and digital connectivity is like being connected to water or speed up the entire process? We need to build in the electricity—it is an essential utility and a vital service. more rural and disadvantaged areas of the UK, where Sadly, I see people’s frustrations—particularly those the commercial market will not build without subsidy. from rural and very rural areas, like much of my patch— That is what the Minister and the Government have weighing heavily in my inbox every day. I am sure been doing. Openreach is sick of my letters and emails, but tackling I understand that we have set £5 billion of funding to those frustrations is crucial for the communities that I deliver broadband to the final 20% of properties that am proud to represent. will not be reached by the commercial networks, but in Rural communities throughout the UK—Somerset is the 2020 spending review last week the Chancellor no exception—suffer from a productivity gap with urban allocated just £1.2 billion of that funding for the years areas and, as I said in last month’s debate on the rural 2020 to 2025. Will the Minister please explain why that productivity gap, the answer lies in technology and funding seems to have been cut? Will it be replaced? The infrastructure. Even before lockdown, a quarter of the Government have also downgraded their ambitions in rural population worked from home, and that will only the national infrastructure strategy to 85% gigabit-capable increase, but Somerset is sprinkled with areas that have coverage by 2025, instead of 100%. Again, why has that unreliable,intermittent or very slow connectivity—including happened? my own house. If small and medium-sized enterprises The danger is that broadband companies will concentrate are the engine of the rural economy, how can we get on building their networks in areas where they can make that engine started and running smoothly? a commercial return—who can blame them for that?—and Investment in those rural dead zones is of course great put their plans for rural Britain on the backburner. news. The shared rural network agreement is another When the other companies that are building in my step forward, but there is still the idea that the rural constituency are asked about the Blackdown hills, all of economy is all based around agriculture.Actually,alongside a sudden they go very quiet and say, “That may take a agriculture, there are huge numbers of blossoming, little longer.” blooming, burgeoning start-ups and growing businesses. I thank the Minister for being here today—I am sure For example, the logistics and supply-chain company he is enjoying it. We all want to get broadband to our Vallis Commodities in my own Frome utterly depends constituents. I have made light of it, but far too many on Somerset’s digital infrastructure. We must stoke mistakes have been made over the past 10 years and I those businesses’ fires and feed them the nutrients they want to avoid that happening again. What reassurances need—if I am not mixing my metaphors. can the Minister give my constituents today that the The Government were elected on a promise to level Government, through Connecting Devon and Somerset, up the UK, and I hugely welcome the investment in have a workable plan that will deliver, change lives for physical infrastructure that the south-west is beginning the better and connect them and the constituents of my to see, with the dualling of the A303—finally—being a fellow MPs from Devon and Somerset? Joking aside, it great example and a huge relief. In my constituency, I has been too long. A lot of public money has been put am delighted that we have got the Restore Your Railways into it and it has not delivered. Not all the problems are feasibility funding for a new station between Somerton with Connecting Devon and Somerset, but it has been a and Langport. We are starting to bridge the physical very sorry story. I do not want to come here in a few divide in the country, which will pay great dividends, years’ time to make the same speech and say, “We’ve but our counties have vast untapped economic potential, wasted more years.” Please, Minister, can we have some and it is the digital divide that needs to be bridged for answers today? that to be truly unlocked. With every passing day, the divide grows and becomes more and more impassable. 4.42 pm So my message to the Minister is: come on folks, let’s David Warburton (Somerton and Frome) (Con): It is get building. a real pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). As ever, he is 4.47 pm dauntless in his defence of and support for our rural Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con): I thank my near communities. I congratulate him on securing this debate. neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton I seem to be the only representative of Somerset here, and Honiton (Neil Parish), for securing the debate. I so I will fly the flag as best I can. I do not disagree with hope he will not mind me highlighting his personal anything that my hon. Friend said, but Connecting interest in the issue: on weekly calls among Devon MPs, Devon and Somerset, Somerset County Council and we often miss his contributions because his internet the Government have achieved some things in improving falls down. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak connectivity for us. They have connected more premises about the challenges we face as a region and highlight than any other English programme. Coverage is now 90%, the need to improve connections across our two counties. 199WH Broadband Rollout: Devon and 2 DECEMBER 2020 Broadband Rollout: Devon and 200WH Somerset Somerset We must deliver superfast broadband across East Member for Somerton and Frome (David Warburton). Devon, not least because many more people are working That issue has been readily addressed and identified by from home and—let us face it—some will not return to those who have been sent home to work from home the office. For far too long, East Devon has suffered over the past 11 months, and who have seen the need to from delayed contracts and patchy upgrades. It is not interact with colleagues and businesses, and find investment acceptable for anyone in Sidmouth, Exmouth, Budleigh and opportunity through their digital connectivity.Failing Salterton, Topsham, Ottery St Mary,Cranbrook, St Loyes, to identify and address the issue is only likely to see that Whimple, Clyst St Mary or any village in East Devon to gap and gulf in the south-west expand beyond where it be unable to make a video call or watch a TV programme is already, and to see a lack of opportunity presenting using a decent internet connection in 2020. Feniton and itself compared with some cities. Whimple, for instance, have only 63% superfast availability with download speeds of at least 30 megabits per second Investment was mentioned. The south-west needs as defined by Ofcom. That compares with 97% for investment. It is a big policy of this Government to Exmouth. make sure that we are levelling up across all regions. Well, the south-west needs that. In Bristol and Exeter Given the failures of Gigaclear, covered by my hon. we have seen the benefits that investment can bring, but Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton, to roll unless we can ensure that we have a robust digital out superfast broadband under the Connecting Devon telecommunications network that not only allows people and Somerset programme, Jurassic Fibre is plugging to work from home, but attracts businesses to operate some of the gap successfully for a large part of East from across the peninsula, we cannot hope to see the Devon, stretching from Clyst St George to Exmouth. I investment and opportunity that we seek to provide for commend Jurassic Fibre for cracking on and connecting younger generations in years to come. more of East Devon, but in the village of Farringdon, internet download speeds have been less than 5 megabits While I do not have the historical knowledge of my per second. One of the village’s first upgrades earlier hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton this year was LittlePod, who manufacture and export about Connecting Devon and Somerset, I do have a around the world a special kind of vanilla paste, as the sense that CDS has failed to deliver in the short time International Trade Secretary saw at first hand this time since I was elected. In my constituency there are 52,000 last year. It now has a 500 megabits per second business premises, of which 10,000 residential and non-residential connection—and I am extremely envious. properties are still outstanding to be connected. The The reason I talk about that private sector involvement failure to connect them has been an ongoing issue for —ostensibly just one commercial provider in a portion over five years. That makes it impossible for many of of Devon and Somerset—is because it has made a real my constituents to launch their businesses, work from difference. Connecting Devon and Somerset, working home or do any of the things that they might have been with Devon County Council, will have to plug the gaps expected to do this year. in commercially funded networks. Clearly, as has been As has been mentioned, CDS has collaborated with highlighted in the debate, there is more to do on all fronts. Openreach and it is welcome that there is a £6 million Connecting Devon and Somerset is working to solve programme and vouchers, and that Airband is being the issues and listening to concerns raised by MPs on promoted across the area. Unfortunately, unless CDS’s behalf of constituents. It will need to be held to account phase 2 contracts are issued there will be no opportunity and be transparent on public reporting processes, so to build on what we have tried to suggest in our manifesto that it can clearly demonstrate the progress it makes. It and in the Budget, in terms of levelling up in the must crack on and get our counties connected. south-west. The delay has come at a significant cost to The last Budget contained a commitment to spend residents, who have had to shoulder the burden themselves £5 billion on connecting hard-to-reach premises. I know rather than expecting a service that is widespread across the Minister is committed to exploring every opportunity the country to be delivered. We have promised it and it to get fibre broadband rolled out across East Devon is our duty to be able to deliver it for them. and our county. We must work together to deliver for Devon and ensure that no community is left behind. If we look at our opportunities in terms of the businesses that we have, whether it is the great Salcombe, 4.50 pm Brixham and Dartmouth gin distillers who wish to sell their produce across the world—and they do, by the Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): It is a privilege to way—or the photonics industry, a £13.5 billion industry serve under your chairmanship, Ms Fovargue. It is also that relies on digital connectivity even to function, we a privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for need to make sure that we have robust connectivity. Our East Devon (Simon Jupp), who name-checked every fishermen and farmers also need to make sure they have part of his constituency with great confidence and strong access, to fill in their quota forms or report back remains a strong champion for his patch, and for digital to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural connectivity.I congratulate the hon. Member for Tiverton Affairs that they are fulfilling the environmental land and Honiton (Neil Parish) on securing the debate. It is management programme in future years. Those are all pleasing to hear that he has managed to learn the things that allow our society and our communities to delights of Zoom and I suspect that the whole House function better. I hope that the Minister will address will be waiting to see how he gets on with Google those issues and really assume the leadership that we Connect, Skype and Microsoft Teams. Perhaps we can need in the south-west. The south-west MPs are united have another debate about how he does with those. on the issue. Digital and transport connectivity are As has already been raised in weekly calls with Devon essential, and we will keep knocking on his door about MPs, the problem of connectivity is profound in the the issue until it is addressed. I hope that we will not south-west, as was alluded to by my hon. Friend the need to have another debate like this. 201WH Broadband Rollout: Devon and 2 DECEMBER 2020 Broadband Rollout: Devon and 202WH Somerset Somerset 4.55 pm and Devon and I very much appreciated it. I feel for the Members who have eloquently expressed concern about Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con): My constituency’s the impact of the lack of the digital infrastructure they connectivity means it is ranked 634th of the 650 UK need and deserve on the people of Devon and Somerset. constituencies. I do not know whether the Minister has enjoyed the Neil Parish: You beat me. debate quite as much, but I shall briefly summarise some of what was said. Selaine Saxby: I did beat you. I was amazed to learn that Tiverton and Honiton’s Almost a fifth of residents still do not receive the ranking was as low as 627th, but then I found that universal service obligation’s 10 megabits per second. North Devon is even further down. Obviously there are Our average download speed is less than 37 megabits comparisons to be made, and someone has to come top per second, compared with a UK average of 61. The and bottom. Even so, despite Devon and Somerset only thing slower than our broadband speed is attempts having 1.5% of households in the country, 5% of homes to connect properties by CDS. I am delighted that there are located in notspots. In Somerset West, one in things are now progressing, and I recognise the complexities 20 households are unable to receive the minimum of procurement in this area, but an alarming amount of 10 megabits, which is the Government’s definition of time seems to have been taken, still to be selecting decent broadband. That figure increases to nearly 12% of suppliers. households in east and west Devon. The hon. Members I note that major players in the sector are not participating for Somerton and Frome (David Warburton), for East in the current procurement process, because we are a Devon (Simon Jupp), for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), whole technology behind in Devon and Somerset. I am for North Devon, and for Tiverton and Honiton all determined that North Devon will not continue to emphasised how the pandemic had truly brought home languish at the bottom of the broadband league, and to us the importance of connectivity at this time. have taken it upon myself to connect my own community Every Member referenced the Connecting Devon to fibre broadband through a community fibre partnership, and Somerset broadband scheme, which the hon. Member in conjunction with Openreach. Using our Department for Tiverton and Honiton described as too slow.However, for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport vouchers and the scheme exceeds the UK’s superfast broadband roll-out working directly with the industry seems to be the most target set by the coalition Government, which called for likely method of connecting up my rural constituency; 90% coverage by 2015. Unfortunately, mismanagement but the continuation of the Government’svoucher schemes under the coalition Government meant that, nationally, is key to enabling communities to get connected. I hope the target was not reached and was missed by a year. If that the Minister will be in a position to confirm that a local scheme that outperforms the Government’s is today. too slow and needs to be reviewed, the Government’s Last week’s announcement that only 85% of the own position on broadband has been lacklustre and country will be connected by 2025 rather fills me with should also be up for review. [Interruption.] I do have dread, as there seems to be an inevitability about hard- mobile coverage here. to-reach rural constituencies such as mine continuing Anthony Mangnall: The hon. Lady started her speech to be left behind. Without the 100% target and full by saying that she felt the experience of our lack of £5 billion commitment, will the industry be able to connectivity in the south-west. She is more than welcome commit the resources and train the army of new engineers to come and experience it at any time. needed for even 85% to be reached? Given that CDS is still so busy with the previous technology, I ask that Chi Onwurah: I really am grateful to the hon. Gentleman someone else manage the procurement and delivery of for that timely intervention. I meant to say that I felt for high-speed fibre in North Devon, and that that should the experience, but I am keen to feel the actual experience be rapidly instigated, as the most commercially viable in the gorgeous surroundings that he has so well described. parts of my constituency are now being over-fibred by The products and services sound so very attractive. competing fibre companies, leaving harder-to-reach communities even less likely to see fibre. Wehave had 10 wasted years for telecoms infrastructure under this Government. I was a chartered engineer who When we talk about levelling up North Devon we are worked in telecoms for 20 years before coming into not expecting a new railway or motorway.We desperately Parliament, which I mention from time to time, and the need broadband to enable our businesses, young people decade that I have been in Parliament has coincided and communities to have access to what other parts with a rapid relative decline in the quality of our of the country take for granted. I spend far too long telecommunications infrastructure. Labour made great lobbying the Minister for better broadband, and I strides in building a digital economy.Our Communications shamelessly do the same today.Please speed up everything Act 2003 set out the strategy and vision for a decade. to do with broadband in North Devon. Our office of the internet was a world leader, and we oversaw the roll-out of the first generation of broadband 4.58 pm to more than 50% of households by 2009. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): Labour’s plans would have seen two-thirds of UK It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairship, households have access to services of up to 40 megabits Ms Fovargue. I want to thank the hon. Member for by 2015. Unfortunately,that is now not the case,consecutive Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) for calling the Tory Governments having squandered that world-leading debate. It has been a huge pleasure for me to listen to so position. Several Members mentioned the need for effective many excellent and well-informed contributions. As a competition and not the over-building of fibre to one north-east MP, who is not allowed to travel far at the home, and not the absence of any competition or a moment, I feel that I have been on a tour of Somerset monopoly provider. Under Labour, we had competitive 203WH Broadband Rollout: Devon and 2 DECEMBER 2020 Broadband Rollout: Devon and 204WH Somerset Somerset infrastructure competitions, including the local loop, That quote is absolutely appropriate in this case, because but since then we have seen U-turns, dither and delay in although we might understand one change in the infrastructure roll-out, including the BDUK scheme, Government’s commitment to broadband, a series of which re-emphasised Openreach—indeed, BT—effectively changes is either carelessness—which is negligent, given as a monopoly provider. All phase 1 contracts and the importance of digital infrastructure to our economy— funding under the scheme went to British Telecom, and or, I am afraid, deliberately misleading. the Public Accounts Committee warned that that restricted I hope the Minister can set out how we will achieve in the Department’s ability to insist on value for money. Devon and Somerset the digital infrastructure that is so Will the Minister set out his strategy for encouraging richly deserved. I also hope he will talk a bit about the effective competition, particularly in rural broadband? divide in digital skills, because as well as having the It is concerning to see that as a country that invented infrastructure, we need to ensure that everyone has the fibre-optic cable— access to the digital skills that mean they can use the infrastructure and reap the economic benefits. I am Neil Parish: I shared the hon. Lady’s concern that particularly concerned about access to infrastructure at Openreach had too much of a monopoly, but I have to home, which enables Zoom meetings and online education. say that since Openreach has stepped back from connecting Some 50% of rural premises have patchy and unreliable Devon and Somerset, the situation has actually got mobile reception, so I hope the Minister will say a word worse, not better. Openreach is training 5,000 engineers about 5G roll-out and the delays in coverage. We cannot every year, so there is a real need for it. Now that it has allow the digital divide to exacerbate the current rural been split away reasonably successfully from BT, we can divides. I hope that the Minister will mention the universal use Openreach much more. service obligation, which the Government launched in March to great fanfare and which allows rural households Chi Onwurah: The hon. Gentleman shows an to demand connectivity from BT. As I am aware from understanding of network competition that I rarely the north-east, however, an estimated 60,000 households find in this House. I can only agree with him that it is across the country may be charged up to £100,000 for necessary to have effective separation. If Openreach is installation under that initiative. Does that count as a effectively separated and open to different over-the-top universal service obligation? How much does the Minister providers, having a monopoly position does not lead to believe is too much to pay for the internet? monopolistic behaviours such as raising rents or offering low customer service, but it is necessary for that separation Digital is now at the heart of almost every policy area to occur. As I think has been said, it is also the case that and online access is integral to people’s lives. I thank the BT responded to many of the Building Digital UK bids hon. Members for Somerton and Frome, for East Devon, and ended up having a monopoly position. That was for Totnes and for North Devon—and, of course, the BT, not simply Openreach. hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton—for their considered contributions to the debate, which represent I want to focus for a couple of minutes on the their constituents’ interests now and in future. We must economic importance of rolling out broadband. In ensure that, as we build back better and level up, there is 2018, the Conservative-run Somerset County Council no rural digital divide that holds back parts of our highlighted the worry about regional productivity in its country and a significant number of our constituencies. economic development strategy, which said: “We are not as productive a District as we could be. Evidence shows a relative lack of dynamism in our economy with productivity 5.11 pm levels below our potential and lower than those of the South-West The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, and national levels.” Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman): I thank my Across the country, only 8% to 10% of premises are hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton connected to full-fibre broadband, compared with 97% in (Neil Parish) for securing this debate; I do not think Japan. We are an innovative nation, but our innovation that anyone has ever tried to duff up the Government in needs the digital platform to allow our small businesses such a good-natured way. That spirit was shared by all to grow, particularly as our economy shifts online and hon. Members, for better or worse. we face the challenges and opportunities of the fourth I have had these conversations with all hon. Members industrial revolution, with its implications for everything present and other MPs across Devon and Somerset, from manufacturing to smart cities and addressing climate because broadband now matters more than any other change. utility. Over the last year or so, we have learned how I do not want to reiterate the Prime Minister’s sad important digital connectivity is. It is not that useful for history of flip-flopping over promises on delivering full me to talk about how extensive the superfast programme fibre, but I will summarise it. Full fibre was supposed to has been or how 96% of the country is covered, because be delivered by 2025, but that was then downgraded to if people do not have it, they do not have it. I understand gigabit-capable broadband to every home by 2019. As why hon. Members want to go back with good answers we have heard, only last week the Government sneaked to parents trying to educate their children and to farmers out the Chancellor’s spending review plans to water trying to deal with the Department for Environment, down their broadband promise instead of keeping that Food and Rural Affairs—a whole host of people from manifesto commitment, and a smaller proportion of every aspect of society. Digital is what we now rely on, money has been made available. and what we will continue to rely on for economic The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton cited growth and for essential parts of everyday life. George Bernard Shaw. My recollection is that it was I completely understand why the debacle of the 13% of Oscar Wilde who wrote: houses that Connecting Devon and Somerset has not “To lose one parent…may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose managed to get connected is important to all hon. both looks like carelessness.” Members present. As my hon. Friend the Member for 205WH Broadband Rollout: Devon and 2 DECEMBER 2020 Broadband Rollout: Devon and 206WH Somerset Somerset [Matt Warman] completed in around 10 months. He rightly highlighted the fact that we had aimed to get them done by the end Somerton and Frome (David Warburton) generously of November. I think he would accept that quite a lot pointed out, 87% of the programme has been delivered, has happened this year that we were not expecting, but but the fact remains that not far off 50,000 premises will it is my expectation that they will be done by Christmas. be, at worst, nearly five years late. For what it is worth, I am sorry.It is important that, whether we blame Carillion Neil Parish: Will my hon. Friend give way? for letting down Gigaclear,or Gigaclear for overpromising, the Government are sorry that we are in this position. Matt Warman: If my hon. Friend will let me continue. That is an important starting point. I know everyone says it will be done by Christmas, but I mean this Christmas. That procurement process, as he Neil Parish: I thank the Minister for taking my comments can imagine, is very much ongoing now. I ask him in such good part. The Government have put people in gently not to tempt me to say anything that might derail from the Department to look at Connecting Devon and that procurement process in the last three weeks, but Somerset and to sit on its board, but that needs to be that is where we are at. strengthened. These mistakes cannot go on being made time and time again. My plea to him is to pick it up. I Neil Parish: I understand the point that the Minister understand that the Government may not want to run is making about the six contracts, but he should not the scheme themselves, but, for goodness’ sake, they forget it was Connecting Devon and Somerset that cannot let Connecting Devon and Somerset behave in decided to split it up into six contracts. I am not that way any longer. necessarily against that, but I do not think it can be broadly said it has managed to deliver six contracts in Matt Warman: I thank my hon. Friend for that. I 10 months. Previously, it was one contract; CDS decided want to try to look to the future. There are some bits of to split it up, so it is taking more time. Yes, it will be at good news. I cannot remember his precise phrase—I am Christmas, all being well, but the contracts are going not sure if he literally asked me to grab Connecting out to 2025. In this great new spirit of transparency, Devon and Somerset by the throat—but we have certainly how much is going to be announced so that people can worked closely with it. He mentioned that we have actually get connected well before 2025? We have had made an appointment to the board. That is a signal of no transparency. how closely and intensively we have worked with CDS to get these forthcoming procurements to a much better Matt Warman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. A place. crucial part of the future programme will be much I will talk about Devon and Somerset specifically, but greater communication with Members of Parliament, it is also important to bear in mind that nationally, we which is important up to a point, but also with the are doing things to ensure that every barrier to a nationwide public. One of the most important things we can do is roll-out is removed; we are legislating for improved say to people, as he said, yes, the whole procurement connectivity in blocks of flats and new builds; we are will take several years, but there will be many shovels in making it easier to dig up the roads and easier to repair the ground and many connections made well before the the roads in a way that makes all of the nationwide end of that period. We need to give people as much roll-out go that bit faster. In Devon and Somerset, CDS transparency as we possibly can, so that the entirely is now in the final phase of that £38 million procurement legitimate criticism that my hon. Friend made of the that will deliver those final connections. Working with previous contract is not the case for the future contract. us in DCMS, what it has done—as is already public It was right that CDS gave Gigaclear the opportunity knowledge—is divide the remaining 50,000 premises to make things work, because it could speed things up, into six lots to cover all parts of the region not currently but we are where we are. It also important from a addressed by the live Airband contract. The reason for national perspective to say that Gigaclear has delivered taking that approach is to maximise competition, speed, in large swathes of the country: in Oxfordshire, Berkshire, and speed of roll-out wherever we possibly can. Essex, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire. There are We have teams in Building Digital UK that have many problems, given the situation we are in today, but covered commercial interest, state aid, value for money part of this is that we cannot lay them all at the door of and delivery,all working intensively with CDS throughout any one entity. the procurement process and supporting it at every On the new procurement, while some may think it stage. We could not have worked more closely, and that easier to award the contracts to a larger supplier, the is in part because of the commitments that I made to fair and open process across six lots was intended to Members when I came to the area to talk about CDS promote speed and competition. When my hon. Friend and we first made the decision that Gigaclear was not gets his Christmas present, I hope he will be able to going to be in a position to revise its contract. We greet that, and we will give him some of the transparency worked very closely with Gigaclear to try and get it to a that we have talked about. point where we did not have to restart the process but, I thank CDS for working with DCMS as closely as it ultimately, I believe that restarting the process was the has. That is why we have got to the position of doing six best way to secure the speed of connections that we need. procurements in ten months or thereabouts, taking the It is this close management that has ensured that the people of Devon and Somerset to a significantly better procurement is on the very shortest path to delivery that place. The overall delivery, in stages between 2021 and we could possibly have envisaged. To give my hon. 2024, and 2024 and 2025, is the right approach but it Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton an idea, needs to be as transparent as possible, and should go as one procurement might routinely take nine months. fast as possible. It should be communicated as quickly Those six lots—those six procurements—will have been as possible. I have made that point to DCMS and CDS 207WH Broadband Rollout: Devon and 2 DECEMBER 2020 Broadband Rollout: Devon and 208WH Somerset Somerset because, once awarded, these new contracts will deliver that, but the point is that we will go as fast as we the balance of the connectivity that should have been possibly can. We will talk more about what the phasing delivered by Gigaclear. It is worth remembering the UK looks like as we talk more about the gigabit programme. Government target of 95% for superfast coverage. The We will release some details this side of Christmas and latest figures in my hon. Friend’s constituency show some more in the new year. If the hon. Lady will be that 84.35% of his constituents have superfast connectivity slightly patient, we will be able to release some more —slightly up from the figures that he has given. The bad details. One of the key factors for the gigabit programme news is that the other two constituencies that he mentioned has to be providing people with transparency about have gone up slightly faster. Tiverton and Homerton what happens when. now has the lowest connectivity in Devon and Somerset, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and and I know that he is not going to let up until that is at a Honiton for securing this debate. It is a hugely important significantly higher level. We will pick up the superfast issue for everyone across Devon and Somerset. I understand connections with these remaining procurements, we and share the frustration. I would be very happy to have will be more transparent and we will go as fast as we another one of these debates, but I really hope we will possibly can. not need one. It is also important to talk about the forthcoming UK gigabit programme that my hon. Friend mentioned 5.26 pm and be absolutely clear that this remains a £5 billion programme with a 100% target. The judgment of industry Neil Parish: I thank my hon. Friend the Member for and the Government is that the initial phasing of the Somerton and Frome (David Warburton) for his spending reflects the maximum that can be delivered in contribution to the debate. I like the way he managed to the period up to 2025, but we will continue to work with get roads and rail into a broadband debate—excellent. industry so that if we can go any faster at all, then we As my constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the will. If we can exceed that 85%, then we will. It is not an Member for East Devon (Simon Jupp), went through 85% maximum—it is a 100% ambition and we will go as all his villages, he stole one of mine. Feniton belongs to far and as fast as we can. me—will he take his troops away? He made a very good point about how we need to get everybody connected. I My hon. Friend the Member for North Devon thank my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony (Selaine Saxby) mentioned vouchers. They will be a key Mangnall) very much for his contribution. He was able part, but not the only part by any means, of that future to talk about gin distillers, farmers and fisherman all in procurement, because it is horses for courses, as we the same breath—excellent. My hon. Friend the Member know. Some communities are able to work together, but for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) said that she has less in some areas that is simply not the right approach. A connection than me, but the Minister told me that I host of different approaches will inform how we spend have the worst in Devon, so that should definitely cheer that £5 billion because that is how we will make it go as me up. fast as possible and how, with an eye on value for money, we will manage to make sure that we spend it as At the end of the day, this is very much about quickly as possible. I know what matters to hon. Members connecting our constituents. I made the point that it in the Chamber is getting those connections done as does not matter who does it or how we do it, but they quickly as possible. In the period to 2025, we will focus must be connected. Over the years, I have been concerned that funding, wherever possible, on premises that do not about Openreach and BT and their monopolies, but have access to superfast broadband. That means that they are training 5,000 engineers a year. They are the the focus will be disproportionally on constituencies big players out there, so we have to make sure we use such as Somerton and Frome,and Tiverton and Homerton, them with the outside-in programme and the voucher where an 80-something per cent. of people have it. I scheme. There has been a history of antagonism between obviously cannot make promises about any individual Connecting Devon and Somerset and Openreach, and I connection, although I am glad that my hon. Friend the do not want that to hold back the delivery of broadband. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) has recently This is not only about our businesses; we talked about been upgraded and I have hopes for my hon. Friend the children’seducation and the health service—most doctors’ Member for Somerton and Frome, but it is important surgeries are now being done online because of the that the Government are clear that we will focus the pandemic. There is lots of serious stuff that we need to £5 billion gigabit programme on getting as many people sort out. connected as possible. We will focus on those who need I do not apologise for being very forthright because I it most, and we will continue to work with the industry think it was necessary, but I accept what the Minister to refine the programme and maximise coverage. said. We really need to do better. The last comment that I will make, Ms Fovargue, is that if you think this is bad, Chi Onwurah: I thank the Minister for the good-natured if I have to come back a second time it may be even way in which he is addressing our concerns, but I want worse. to ask him about the commitment to universal gigabit Question put and agreed to. broadband. Does it remain, and if so when will it be Resolved, achieved? That this House has considered the rollout of broadband in Devon and Somerset. Matt Warman: As I said, we think we will get to 85% or thereabouts by 2025. We will go as fast as we possibly can and we will get to 100% as quickly as we possibly 5.29 pm can. I know the hon. Lady wants me to put a date on Sitting adjourned.

11WS Written Statements 2 DECEMBER 2020 Written Statements 12WS

I am now pleased to announce that Derbyshire and Written Statement Nottinghamshire, the heart of the south west, and the Leeds city region have today opened course registrations Wednesday 2 December 2020 ahead of beginning delivery in January.These bootcamps will expand to cover not only digital skills like software EDUCATION development, digital marketing, and data analytics but also technical skills training such as welding, engineering, Lifetime Skills Guarantee and construction. This is only the start for this innovative approach to adult training. I can confirm that we will invest £43 million The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson): through the national skills fund to extend skills bootcamps The lifetime skills guarantee announced by the Prime further across the country in 2021 increasing the national Minister in September promises to help people across coverage of this new offer and trailblazing new skills to the country get the skills they need at every stage of support our labour market and develop this model their life as we build back better from the coronavirus further. pandemic. We will continue to build on our wider plans for adult As part of the lifetime skills guarantee, the Prime skills and I will update the House on our progress in due Minister announced the expansion of skills bootcamps, course. In the meantime, we will continue to engage which are currently available in the west midlands, Greater closely with stakeholders as we progress and develop Manchester, and the Liverpool city region. These flexible detailed plans for the national skills fund. courses last approximately 12-16 weeks, and give participants the opportunity to build up sector-specific [HCWS616] skills and fast-track to an interview with a local employer. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 2 December 2020

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND...... 291 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Covid-19: UK-wide Response ...... 297 Transition Period: UK Trade ...... 299 Good Friday Agreement: Implementation ...... 300 UK Transport Connections ...... 296 Integrated Education ...... 298 UK-EU Future Relationship: Businesses ...... 292 Structural and Investment Funding: Transition Period ...... 291 PRIME MINISTER ...... 301 Transition Period: Business Preparedness ...... 295 Engagements...... 301 WRITTEN STATEMENT

Wednesday 2 December 2020

Col. No. EDUCATION...... 11WS Lifetime Skills Guarantee ...... 11WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 9 December 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 685 Wednesday No. 145 2 December 2020

CONTENTS

Wednesday 2 December 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 291] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Arcadia and Debenhams: Business Support and Job Retention [Col. 313] Answer to urgent question—(Paul Scully)

Coronavirus Vaccine [Col. 331] Statement—(Matt Hancock)

Automated External Defibrillators (Public Access) [Col. 351] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Jim Shannon)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Agriculture [Col. 355] Motion—(Victoria Prentis)—agreed to

Exiting the European Union (Plant Health) [Col. 369] Motion—(Victoria Prentis)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 377]

Coronation Street: 60th Anniversary [Col. 379] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Exiting the European Union (Food) [Col. 397] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Covid-19: Access to Cancer Diagnosis and Treatment [Col. 131WH] Local Government Reorganisation: Somerset [Col. 156WH] Homelessness and Temporary Accommodation [Col. 162WH] Covid-19: Lung Cancer Pathway [Col. 187WH] Broadband Rollout: Devon and Somerset [Col. 195WH] General Debates

Written Statement [Col. 11WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]