Richard Livsey died in September 2010. He was elected Liberal MP for Brecon & Radnor in the 1985 by-election, lost the seat in 1992 and then regained it in 1997. On standing down in 2001, he was ennobled as Baron Livsey of Talgarth. He led the from 1988 to 1992 and from 1997 to 2001. As well as being a central figure in Welsh Liberal politics, his main success was to build Brecon & Radnor into a Liberal Democrat stronghold; it is now represented by in the Welsh Assembly and by Roger Williams in Westminster. Russell Deacon interviewed him in March 2003. Richard Livsey

What are your earliest political The big influence on the Liber- him as he was conducting a Com- memories? als was T. O. Davies, Principal of mission on the establishment of an I can recall the 1945 general Tregan College, an active Liberal Agricultural College for Wales. election when I was ten years by nature and family tradition, a Although we didn’t speak much old. My memories of the time are Nonconformist. In rural Wales politics, I was impressed by him around the Brecon and Radnor the Nonconformists were Liberal, both as a speaker and listener. constituency. In that wartime elec- in Glamorgan and Monmouth- Another Liberal I came a cross tion, a former miner, Tudor Wat- shire and industrial areas they were was MP (Cardi- kins, was the victorious Labour Labour. Politics at that time had ganshire 1945–1966). He was very candidate. Oscar Guest was the polarised into Labour and Liberal good speaker at Liberal Party Conservative candidate. He had areas depending on your religion. meetings, but his legal career inter- previously been the Coalition fered with his political life. He had Liberal MP for Loughborough What are your earliest campaigning established a good reputation for and was a first cousin of Winston memories? helping campaign on social issues. Churchill. To a ten year old he I think they were the direct When he became a Deputy Speaker came across as very formal. The action campaigns in Brecon and in the House of Commons he dis- Liberal candidate, David Lewis, Radnor. These were over reservoirs tanced himself from the party in was a Breconshire county coun- they were planning to build to sup- Wales and elsewhere. We never saw cillor and later chairman of the ply water to England. I was inspired him after he lost his seat in 1966. He Education Committee. We came by the passion that those campaign- didn’t even contact Geraint How- a distant third then with less than ing had to defend the countryside ells when he won his old seat back half of the vote of Tudor Watkins. that they loved. again in 1974. Although the constituency party During this period (1945–60) I Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris was sound at that time, mainly came across a number of the Lib- (Carmarthenshire 1945–1957) was a under Alderman Lewis’s guidance, eral political legends of the post- sound middle-of-the-road Liberal. we wouldn’t fight the seat there for war period. I got to know Professor He was greatly respected across another decade. Breconshire was Seaborne Davies, the Liberal MP Wales but was, on the whole, an very political but was always split who had taken over David Lloyd independent-minded MP. Mor- three ways between the three polit- George’s old Caernarvon Boroughs ris was the first MP to make a ical parties. seat for a brief period in 1945. I met speech against the monoculture

Journal of Liberal History 81 Winter 2013–14 37 interview: richard livsey of softwood trees when they were Scotland I fought the Perth and East the late 1960s and early 1970s gained being planted in Wales in the 1950s. Perthshire constituency in the 1970 a lot of support on Welsh issues in His concern for the countryside general election. I came fourth but the seat. Elystan Morgan was at the greatly impressed me. Both he and managed to get over 3,000 votes in a time seen as the ‘bright young hope Roderic Bowen were mainly con- traditional Unionist seat. of the Labour Party’ in Wales. Mor- cerned with their own seats and Whereas had caused gan a decade before had left Plaid legal careers and therefore we didn’t something of a political revival Cymru, which caused much bitter- see them much elsewhere in Wales. in Scotland this wasn’t occurring ness amongst support- The Montgomeryshire MP in Wales. I reflected hard on what ers and therefore Geraint was able to and Liberal Party leader Clem- was happening in Scotland. Here capitalise on the Plaid Cyrmu vote. ent Davies had a huge influence on I found the organisation in many Plaid Cymru never forgave Morgan Brecon and Radnor. He was also ways similar, but the constituencies for leaving the party. Geraint was a keen on establishing a Welsh parlia- were much further ahead in their shrewd political operator, he knew ment, as was I. This appeal to the planning. In the Welsh elections exactly what was going on and drew Welsh cause meant also that natu- fought Brecon and the vote to him. ral Plaid Cymru voters came over Radnor and was the first Liberal to him. Davies spoke a lot around candidate there since 1955. After his What did you do in the St David’s Day Wales about the need for a Welsh experience in Brecon and Radnor, Welsh Assembly referendum of 1979? parliament and many other Liberal Geraint decided to reorganise the I did most of my campaigning causes. Although he wasn’t always Welsh party. Policy formulation in Pembrokeshire where I had also that good a speaker, he could draw became more structured. Hooson now been selected as the parliamen- a substantial crowd. I recall one was being asked to do too much. tary candidate. Before the election meeting in 1959 in Builth Wells in He was Defence spokesman, Welsh I had spoken in a debate at Haver- which we had over 300 people in party leader and there were only six fordwest with both Dafydd Wig- attendance. Davies was also a prac- Liberal MPs at Westminster then. ley MP and Denzil Davies MP. In tical politician planning for the A Welsh Office Liberal Party the debate, because I wasn’t an MP, future. In this respect he selected headquarters was established in I ended up being the sixth speaker. Emlyn Hooson as his successor Aberystwyth, an organiser was By the time I got to speak the others three years before his death. This appointed called Emlyn Thomas. had said everything worth saying helped Emlyn build up his profile in He organised the party well for the both for and against the referen- the seat and go on to win it in 1962. first year but following that it was dum. I therefore just spoke about Our first post-war by-election win. done badly, the money dried up my rural upbringing and why I and bills weren’t paid. Thomas later would have to leave Wales to get a Your own involvement in politics up to became a Conservative and stood decent job if the Assembly wasn’t 1979? against Geraint in 1979, coming forthcoming. I went out campaign- I was asked to be a candidate in second. It was Emlyn and Hooson’s ing most often with a teacher called 1960 for Brecon and Radnor but I revival of the party that was crucial Alan Evans. He would later on that couldn’t get the money needed to in Geraint’s 1974 victory, retaking year be the unsuccessful Labour fight the seat. This meant that there the Carmarthen seat. The political candidate for Pembroke, the same was no Liberal candidate in 1964, impetus came from Emyln and the seat I was standing in (he would just as there hadn’t been one in 1959. practical from Geraint, although On the night later join the SDP). We went around The campaigning I was involved much of their campaigning only every door in Mathry trying to in was therefore nearly always in had an impact in rural Wales and we of the 1 draw up support and all said ‘no’. other constituencies. The 1966 failed to progress into urban Wales. Evans was disgusted and kept on Carmarthen by-election which In the autumn of 1973, I was March 1979 saying ‘Bloody No-voting Welsh launched Plaid Cymru’s Gwynfor interviewed by the Brecon and speakers’. We thought at least the Evans on the political scene was one Radnor Liberal Association and I at the ref- Welsh speakers would support an us Welsh Liberals felt we could have was approved as a candidate. In the Assembly but we were wrong. won. Hywel Davies, our candidate, end I had to decline their invitation erendum On the night of the 1 March was a well-known ITV commenta- because of my academic studies. I 1979 at the referendum count, I tor (also Welsh speaking, and local). then went to Reading University count, I was was the only ‘Yes’ representative at I had written a letter to Liberal to undertake an agricultural course the Tenby count. It was forty-five News the week before the election there, an MSc; during this time the the only ‘Yes’ minutes before I saw a ‘Yes’ vote. stating that the Liberals had lost lecturer Dr Noel K. Thomas was Most Liberal voters and everyone contact with the locals and there- selected to fight the Brecon and representa- else voted ‘No’. Only the box from fore couldn’t expect to win the seat. Radnor seat in 1974. In the first elec- tive at the the village of Maenclochog was This was published on the same tion that year he improved slightly overwhelming ‘Yes’. In hindsight day as the election result showed on Geraint’s 1970 result by getting Tenby count. I felt it was the wrong time for a us coming a distant third. I think nearly 20 per cent of the vote, but referendum. It was simply used as as Welsh Liberals this was probably in the second election his vote fell It was forty- a way of voting against an unpopu- our lowest point. back again. I wasn’t in Brecon and lar Labour government and Tories After being a development Radnor for that election, however, five minutes milked this fully. officer for ICI between 1961 and as I had gone to Cardigan to help In that year’s election it soon 1967, I became a farm manager on Geraint Howells win the seat. He before I saw became clear that the Lib–Lab pact, Blairdrummond Estate in Perthshire defeated Elystan Morgan (Labour although it was now over, hadn’t for nearly four years. Whilst up in MP). He did this because Howells in a ‘Yes’ vote. gone down at all well in Wales. We

38 Journal of Liberal History 81 Winter 2013–14 interview: richard livsey

Liberals were seen to prop them Years later a candidate at all. The subsequent and Cardiganshire had always had a up. We were tarred with the same bitterness between both sides took strong Liberal tradition but this was brush as Labour and as a result we there was an some time to heal, and I was instru- not the case. We hadn’t held a seat went backwards in Wales elector- mental in bringing the two sides there since before the war. ally, with Emlyn losing his Mont- assumption back together. It was at this time I was helped in winning the by- gomeryshire seat and Geraint being that I was selected to be their next election by a number of factors: our sole MP. that Brecon candidate and I started to build up • I had strong family connec- the constituency there, with the tions with the seat: my father What do you remember of the rise of and Radnor, help of Geraint. I was still, at this had been born in Brecon Alliance? time, working in the Welsh College and my mother had been a Due to the poor leadership of like Mont- of Agriculture at Llanbadarn Fawr. headmistress and a teacher Michael Foot (Bleanau Gwent) a lot gomeryshire In 1982 there was a meeting in Talgarth, a town in the people were attracted to the new of the Boundary Commission to constituency. politics of the Liberals. The SDP and Cardi- review the boundaries of Mont- • I had built up the constituency were a totally different type of peo- gomeryshire, and Brecon and Rad- organisation and had spent the ple. Some were quite aggressive; ganshire had norshire. This was in Llandrindod previous two years both get- others were quite friendly; many had Wells. Labour wanted the existing ting to know the constituency absolutely no experience of politics always had boundaries kept. This included the and getting those in the con- at all. What they did give us was an strong Labour supporting areas of stituency to be aware of me. important new impetus. This was a strong Lib- Brynmawr and Cefn Coed (Mer- • I was able to get the full sup- because many were active in the thyr Tydfil). There were about port of the Liberal-Alliance world of business and they also had a eral tradition 10,000 Labour votes there. Tom and able to get the help of large membership on the ground in Hooson, the sitting Conserva- one the most senior Liberals, the south-Wales urban constituencies but this was tive MP argued for Brecon to go Andrew Ellis, as my agent. which we hadn’t been in for decades. in with Monmouth, which would • The successful review of the They were also well up in publish- not the case. have created an enormous Con- boundaries had removed a lot ing, printing and campaigning tech- servative stronghold. Radnorshire of the Labour vote and made niques, which the Liberals in Wales We hadn’t would go to Montgomery, which the seat far more vulnerable to often lacked. The balance of mem- would make Montgomery a Con- the Liberal vote. bership in rural seats, however, still held a seat servative seat. Councillor Gareth • The previous Labour candi- remained predominantly Liberal. In Morgan and myself both submit- date, David Morris, who had Brecon and Radnorshire, for exam- there since ted evidence saying ‘this is ridicu- come second in the seat in ple, I recall there were 150 Liberal before the lous, there are five local authorities 1983, had now been elected members in and 1983 and twenty- currently operating in Brecon and to the European Parliament. seven SDP. In a 1981 I became war. Radnorshire and the new constitu- This meant that Labour’s new Brecon and Radnor candidate. ency should follow the boundaries candidate Dr Richard Wil- In 1982 there was a by-election of the existing county’. This was ley would not have the time in the Gower constituency caused what the Commission implemented to develop the constituency. by the death of the Labour MP, and the result was that the political In addition Willey was clos- Ifor Davies. It was the first trial centre of gravity was changed away eted from the press through of strength for the SDP in Wales. from the Labour urban areas to the much of the campaign, as the This was very much an SDP elec- rural ones. Then in the following Labour Party had become fear- tion; Mark Soady was probably the year’s election I came a close third ful of what it saw as a mainly election agent. The campaign was to Labour’s David Morris, yet Tom Tory press. Perhaps this was run by the SDP, with the Liberals Hooson still had a massive majority something to with Peter Man- only helping to campaign. How- of nearly 9,000 votes. delson, as this was also his first ever, Gwynoro Jones, the SDP For the more famous 1985 by- election contest for Labour. candidate, was still remembered as election I had already been work- • The final piece of good news Labour defector and the Conserva- ing the seat for some time. I was was the fact that although the tive candidate was able to split the still working in Aberystwyth prior wanted vote between us and them. The fact to the by-election. I was walking the election in September or that Gareth Wardell, the Labour down The Parade when a car pulled October in order to build up candidate, was known in the seat up and the window rolled down. It the chances for there candi- beforehand (he had been agent was Geraint Howells. He told me date, Dr Chris Butler, the there) helped Labour. He was also that Tom Hooson was seriously ill Conservative government quite popular locally. Thatcher’s and that I should prepare for a by- actually moved the writ on 10 post-Falklands-War popularity also election. He was right, as Hooson June for it to be on 4 July. But- helped split the vote to the Tories. died shortly afterwards. ler had no direct link with the Gwynoro came second with a quar- At the end of May I was selected constituency and would be ter of the vote but he was still way as the Liberal candidate for the unable to build much of a rap- behind Wardell. seat once more. Geraint backed me port with the voters in the few from the very start of the campaign weeks he had left to campaign. How did you progress into Brecon and to its end, he always insisted that During the campaign we concen- Radnor as the candidate? we could do it. Years later there trated our campaigning against In 1979, the constituency had was an assumption that Brecon and the Conservatives. Towards the been split as to whether to select Radnor, like Montgomeryshire end of the campaign the polls were

Journal of Liberal History 81 Winter 2013–14 39 interview: richard livsey indicating that it was between us with a split between the north and I was a close In the Monmouthshire by-elec- and Labour. We made sure that we south. I was keen to remove this tion, Frances David was suitable for visited every farm and house in the barrier: I wanted to get rural and friend of a largely rural seat like this. She was constituency. Something the oth- urban members in – and to get more an excellent candidate and a sea- ers just didn’t do. was women in. When I was leader more soned campaigner. People were fed really supportive in the campaign women contested elections for the up with the Tories at this time and and attracted huge crows to listen Liberals than ever before. This but I still they came across to us in droves. to him speak. When the election helped them get valuable experience This was a much more rural seat occurred on ‘Independence Day’, although it wasn’t until 1999 and the believed that like those we held in Mid Wales and 4 July 1985, we beat Labour by 554 Welsh Assembly elections that we we felt at home here. Frances’s vote votes. The Tories were more than got our first females elected. Ashdown reflected this fact. 3,000 votes behind. This was a great had greater election victory not only for me Why were you the only Welsh MP in In the 1992 general election you lost your and the Welsh Liberals, but also for 1988 not to support Alan Beith in the potential. He seat and Geraint Howells lost his Cere- the Alliance across the UK. federal leadership election over Paddy digion seat. Why was this? Ashdown? was a differ- In Brecon and Radnorshire our What do you remember of the 1987 gen- I was a close friend of Alan Beith vote actually increased, but so did eral election and the subsequent Liberal– but I still believed that Ashdown ent kind of the Conservatives’, which meant SDP merger? had greater potential. He was a dif- that Jonathan Evans won. I felt that I think it would have been bet- ferent kind of leader. Steel had got leader. the issue of hunting had been the ter in 1987 if there had been no involved in Wales during election decisive factor. The Tories cam- independent SDP. The Alliance times; his helicopter tours to Cere- paigned on this issue strongly. I had was no longer as strong as it had digion during election time were always been pro-hunting but this been, and standing as a Liberal very useful. Ashdown was much didn’t become evident enough in candidate proved to be of a better more active within Wales, though. the campaign and it cost me the vital advantage. We no longer had the There was a large Liberal faction votes I needed to keep the seat. Also, money and resources we once had. in favour of Beith in Wales, as he during the campaign I put too much Both Labour and the Conservatives was seen as a traditional Liberal. time in as the Welsh party leader in heavily outspent us in this election Ashdown’s disciplined lifestyle, other constituencies. This was at the in Wales and the results showed. however, had made him a greater expense of my own constituency We had to merge because there political force. Therefore I got and my support there suffered. was no longer any reason to be involved in Ashdown’s campaign In Ceredigion it was felt that apart. The Liberals, however, from the very start. During the Geraint had stood for one elec- retained the dominant position in campaign we met in his flat in Lon- tion too many. Plaid Cymru also Wales. The SDP weren’t able to don every morning. Thankfully, targeted the constituency and the get any MPs and few councillors although the first few years were hunting issue was important there elected in Wales. Although most not that fruitful, Ashdown’s leader- too, transferring some votes to the of the SDP merged in Wales eas- ship provided us with some of our Tories. We also had no idea that ily, the continued existence of the greatest post-war successes. there would be such a surge in the Owenites mudded the waters. At Plaid Cymru vote. It was one of the the Richmond by-election in Eng- In the 1989 Pontypridd by-election largest swings to Plaid Cymru up land, the SDP helped the Liber- lost his deposit; Frank Levers until that time. als lose and William Hague get lost his in the 1989 Vale of Glamorgan in for the Conservatives. There by-election. Yet Frances David gained How did you regain your Brecon and was also a huge hostility to them a quarter of the vote in the 1991 Mon- Radnorshire seat in 1997? across Wales. Many in the Labour mouth by-election. Why was this? After my defeat I spent a lot of Party hated what they saw as the I went and campaigned in all time unemployed before I was able ‘SDP traitors’. Liberals were not three of these Welsh by-elections, to find some work with the Agri- treated with the same brush and we on an almost daily basis. In Pon- cultural Training Board. Then in retained more cordial relations with typridd, Labour’s Dr Kim How- 1985 I left the board and spent the Labour MPs. ells was a seen as being a very good next two and a half years working candidate and a hard act to defeat. in the constituency. Both the Welsh Why did you become leader of the Welsh Although the seat had a strong Lib- and the Federal party targeted the party in 1988? eral tradition, Tom Ellis was seen as seat, which gave us a lot of resource I said that the leadership was an outsider from the SDP. Labour there. We were also able to do a pri- too early for me at this time, but resented this former Labour MP vate opinion poll in the seat that Geraint Howells insisted. I wanted standing in the seat and this made meant we could target the messages the party to be a great deal more them campaign all the harder. we needed to win the seat. The three organised. I wanted it to cover the In the Vale of Glamorgan, Frank agents I had in my career at Brecon whole of Wales. I wanted to get Levers’ lost deposit was quite a and Radnorshire – Willie Griffith MPs elected in , Swansea shock. The SDP had done well in in 1983, Celia Thomas in 1987 and and Wrexham to join the rural Lib- the seat in 1987 general election. 1992, and finally James Gibson Watt eral Democrats. The old division in But for this election there were not in 1997 – were also instrumental in Wales, which had occurred between enough activists in the constitu- winning back the seat. When [in the North and South Wales Liberals ency and this was reflected in the 1997] the result was announced the federations continued in practice, poor vote. following day, it was the last result

40 Journal of Liberal History 81 Winter 2013–14 in Wales. My victory there ensured that Wales became ‘Tory free’ for the first time since 1906. Report

What was your role in the 1997 Welsh Assembly referendum? This referendum and the result- Survival and Success: Twenty-Five Years of ing ‘Yes’ vote majority, which led the Liberal Democrats to the establishment of the Welsh Assembly, was the height of my Conference fringe meeting, 15 September 2013, with political career. During the cam- paign the political parties worked Duncan Brack, John Curtice, and Julie Smith; well together. The eastern part of chair: Lord Ashdown Wales in this campaign was still largely hostile to the idea of a Welsh Report by Douglas Oliver Assembly. We had to campaign therefore to try and get as much of n Sunday 15 September councillor and vice-chair of the the ‘Yes’ vote out as possible. The 2013, at the Liberal Dem- Federal Policy Committee. legacy of Tory rule in Wales helped Oocrat Conference in Glas- Duncan Brack outlined the the ‘Yes’ campaign. The organisa- gow, the History Group celebrated scope of discussion. The seminar tion of the ‘Yes’ campaign was also the party’s first quarter-century was designed to help build on top- much better than the ‘No’ cam- with a discussion of its successes and ics discussed in the History Group’s paign. All of this helped us get a failures, across a series of key crite- 2011 book Peace, Reform and Libera- narrow ‘Yes’ win. ria, in the years from its foundation tion and help ferment the thoughts on 3 March 1988. of three of the speakers, in readi- Did you consider standing for the Welsh Introducing the meeting from ness for their contribution to a Assembly elections? the chair, – who forthcoming special edition of the I had considered standing myself was elected the party’s first leader in Journal. for the Assembly but I felt I would July 1988 – spoke of the importance In broad terms, Brack outlined I would be too old to stand in the of history and of his admiration for six key reasons for the party’s sur- 2003 elections, which was the the group’s study of Liberal Demo- vival and improved circumstances first opportunity I had to stand crat history: ‘If we don’t remem- from its unpropitious beginning in down from Westminster. There ber our past we are condemned to 1988. First, local government rep- would have been no point in start- repeat it!’ Ashdown reminded the resentation: the growing town hall ing a political career then. For the 100-strong audience at the Campa- base throughout the 1990s served as 1999 Assembly elections I thought nile Hotel that the difficulties of the an important positive-conditioning Roger Williams would be the can- party’s early years cast the party’s factor affecting voters’ attitudes didate for Brecon and Radnor- current mid-term-government to the party. Second, Westminster shire. In the event Kirsty Williams unpopularity into a relatively posi- by-elections: victories in places became the candidate because she tive light; in the late 1980s, after the like Eastbourne in 1990 and Brent had campaigned so effectively in party’s formation from the rem- East in 2006 were instrumental in winning the nomination in 1998. nants of the Alliance, the position developing the party’s momentum of the Social and Liberal Demo- and confidence. Third, targeting: In the 1999 Federal leadership elec- crats in one opinion poll was above a better focus on areas of political tion, why did you back Kennedy when zero by a statistically insignificant potential helped the party over- the bulk of the Welsh party supported amount, and in the spring of 1989, come its long-standing problem of Hughes? the party fell below the Green vote dispersal. Fourth, leadership: I was a good personal friend of Party in elections to the European the largely positive images held by . He was also a good Parliament. Liberal Democrat leaders helped the friend of the Welsh party. Charles In order to cover the scope of the party as a whole maintain a positive Kennedy, however, was a better- period, four themes were identi- image. Fifth, policy: this provided a known television performer and fied for discussion: party leadership; constructive foundation to back up he presented himself as a good psephology; the nature of the Lib- and strengthen the public’s favour- and popular leader. He had a good eral Democrat voter; and the evolu- able impression of the party. Finally, knowledge of the rural economy, tion in campaigning and the shape the decline of two-party politics: a which was import to both me and of policy. The four topics were broader factor affecting the party’s Brecon and Radnorshire. I felt he introduced respectively by Duncan status – and reinforced by the image was ‘the right man for the time’. Brack, current vice-chair of the Lib- of the party as seeking to rise above eral Democrat Federal Policy Com- class politics – was the electorate’s Professor Russell Deacon is lecturer in mittee; well-known psephologist increasing eschewal of the Con- Politics and History at Coleg Gwent Professor John Curtice, of the Uni- servative and Labour parties, whose and an Honorary Research Fellow at versity of Strathclyde; Mark Pack, combined vote share fell to below Swansea University. He has written former editor of the Liberal Demo- two-thirds of the total in 2010. extensively on Welsh Liberal and Lib- crat Voice blog and head of digital Focusing on leadership, Brack eral Democrat history, including a full campaigning in the 2005 elec- argued that the media shadow cast history of the party. tion; and Julie Smith, Cambridge by the Conservative and Labour

Journal of Liberal History 81 Winter 2013–14 41