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Douglas, Tuesday, January 4, 1944.

Present: The Speaker (Mr J. D. Qual- Have you received any information con- trough, J.P.), Messrs T. A. Quayle, J. cerning the appointment of a commis- Clinton, J. Callister, T. Q. Cannell, F. H. sion to inquire into the fishing industry, Crowe, A. J. Cottier, J. W. Brew, T. G. which was requested by on the Bridson, J. L. Quine, J. H. L. Cowin, T. 19th October. 1943? Up to now I have Clucas, E. W. Fargher, Richard Kneen, heard nothing of a commission being W. A. Kelly, J. J. McArd, G. H. Moore, appointed, and I wondered whether you W. H. Alcock, R. Q. Hampton, A. J. had heard. Time is getting on, and we Teare. J. Kelly, and W. C. Craine, with should like to see something done. Mr R. G. Johnson, Acting Secretary. The Speaker: I haven't personally Mr Kitto was unwell and had asked heard anything. Neither the House nor for leave of absence. the Speaker is informed when commis- sions are appointed; the first news they receive, usually, is a communication GREETINGS FROM MAJOR W. H. through the Press, or sometimes a com- CAIN, M.C. munication comes from Government The Speaker: I should like to announce Office and is circulated to all members. to the House that I have received a Mr Moore: I realise that Tynwald is Christmas card from Ofiag 9 A/H Ger- the place in.which to raise this question, many, with the following message:— but we do not know when there will be "Best wishes for the Christmas sea- a sitting of Tynwald, and time is get- son, 1943, and best wishes for the New ting on, Year, 1944. Best wishes to all.—Prisoner of War Major W. H. Cain, R.A." REFORMS IN THE MANX CONSTITU- I am sure the House would like to say TION—CONSIDERATION OF to Major Cain how much they appreciate DRAFT PETITION. his kind thoughts, and I feel sure you The House considered a draft petition would like me to write back and send to the Home Secretary, submitted by a him our . best wishes for 1944, and an committee appointed on 16th November. early return to his native land. 1943, on the question of the Constitution Agreed. of the . Mr Craine: I move, Mr Speaker, that GREETINGS FROM MAJOR you take charge of the resolution that FAF,RANT. the report of the committee which sub- The Speaker: I have received the fol- mits the draft petition, and that the lowing telegram from the hon. member hon. member for South Douglas, Mr for Ayre, Major Farrant:— Teare, who after you is the senior mem- " Regret inability attend Tuesday. In ber -of the House, take the chair in temporary command. Sincere greetings your place.. to all members. Good luck in the fight; The Speaker: Is that the wish of the keep together, ignore minor issues." House? Agreed. PROPOSED APPOINTMENT OF FISH- Mr Teare then took the chair. ERIES COMMISSION—QUESTION The Acting-Speaker: The first business BY MR. MOORE. is the consideration of the report of the Mr Moore: I have a question to ask committee appointed to draw up a you, Mr Speaker, which is of great im- memorandum to the Home Secretary, portance to the constituency I represent. following the report upon the Conslitu-

Greetings from Major W. H. Cain, M.C.—Greetings from Major Farrant.— Proposed Appointment of Fisheries Commission—Question by Mr. Moore.- ' Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition. HOUSE OF KEYS. JANUARY 4, 1944. 141 tion of the Isle of Man. I will ask Mr mittee considered their report at very Speaker to move the adoption of the considerable length, spending a full and committee's report. I am bound to say a very happy day, Mr Qualtrough: I beg to move:— when all aspects of the case were dis- That the report, dated 14th December, 1943, cused very fully and frankly. I think of the committee appointed to prepare a the House will forgive me if I begin my petition to His Majeet.y's Principal Secretary remarks this Morning by asking mem- of State for Home Affairs on Constitutional bers to keep in mind the main, essential Reform, he adopted. thing that it is sought to secure—in The report is in the hands of members, other words, to put first things first. and it will have been seen that it is on Nobody living in the Isle of Man could all fours with the report of the original fail to be impressed by the exposure of committee. There is an alternative on a the limited powers of the House of Keys matter of detail, with regard to the and of Tynwald which has taken place method of electing the executive com- even in very recent weeks, in the ap- mittee of Tynwald. In the original re- pointment, without any consultation port it was suggested that the executive with us, of the principal officer who committee should be elected annually, administers and is in charge of practic- by Tynwald. There was some criticism ally the whole Government of the Island of this, on the floor of the House and —under the —and also the in the Press, and the second committee appointment of an assistant to him with- has recommended that a different sys- out any reference to this House—indeed, tem be adopted—that is to say, that the an appointment which the House has committee should be appointed for three declared to be irregular. Without in- years, not one, and that they should tending to use any strong or violent retire ini the order of three, two, and language, it is obvious that the House two, so that you would always secure a has been ignored; indeed, it may be said certain amount of continuity. But the that the House has been regarded as first election would not take place until having no say in these questions, these after the committee had been in exist- most important questions, which affect ence for two years, so as to give the the very life of politics in the Isle of first appointed committee a chance to Man, We have an object lesson of the get properly into the saddle, and get fact that we are controlled from outside matters in order for those who come the Island. We are controlled through after. That is an alteration, an amend- and from a body in which we have no ment, which in my opinion strengthens representation. The Lieutenant-Gover- the report. The House will remember nor is sent here; he is not appointed by that at the last sitting, when we had us, he is not responsible to us. He is the discussed the first report, three members head of the executive, he is the head of were added to the original committee, the police, he is the Chancellor of the making nine in all—Messrs Bridson, Exchequer, with control of finance and Crowe, and Hampton. The House will a complete over .any proposals that remember that owing to the transfer of may come before us; he is the head of Mr Crellin to the Legislative Council, the the Civil Service; he may take our original committee had been reduced advice or he may not. He may ask for from seven to six. The second com- it, and after he has had it he may not mittee has presented its report on the be guided by it. In these high posts in lines I have set out, with a minority re- the Government of the .Island, I think it port by two members, Mr Cowin and Mr is obvious to-day that "no Manxman Bridson, who wish to include in the need apply"—not because they are not petition two items—first, that the Deem- capable of doing the work,' not because sters should no longer be members of the Isle of Man cannot produce men who the Legislative Council and Tynwald, are capable, but because they are Manx, and second, that the majority of the and in the opinion of those who make Legislative Council should be elected by the appointment, a Manxman is not a the direct vote of the people. I under- suitable person to be responsible for the stand that it is the intention of these Government of the Island. We are, in two hon. members to move amendments other words, treated as a conquered to that effect. I may say that the corn- country—a country which, if not gov-

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition,

142 HOUSE OF KEYS, JANUARY 4, 1944, ----- • - erned by .a strong hand from outside, they do not clash with the opinion and might cause trouble or might rebel at policy of the conquering country. That, any moment. The Imperial Government roughly, is the Constitution of the Isle holds itself responsible for law and of Man; we are governed from outside, order and good government in the Isle and it is just as well to tear away the of Man. A few weeks ago, the hon. veil that has lain over our Home Rule member for gave 'the names of all these years, and look at the thing as men who were in his opinion capable of we actually find it. It may be all right becoming Government Secretary and for us as a conquered State, or a State Assistant Government Secretary, men that is subject to another; but I feel very whom I think most of us agree were strongly that the position to-day is not . very capable and suitable. They have in consonance with the theory of no chance of being appointed, simply democracy which prevails throughout because they are Manx, and it seems to the British Empire. It is not democratic, be thought that their sympathies might and is contrary to what we believe to be be divided between the country in which the sincere and real object of the British they live and the authorities who make people, to give free self-government to the appointment. I think the hon. mem- all parts of the British Empire as soon ber for Middle fairly stated that point as they are capable of exercising it. I of view when he read to the House what would express surprise that this ques- a former hon. member for North Dou- tion has not been raised in the Isle of glas, now a member of the Legislative Man before. That is why our first com- Council—Mr Norris—said in his journal mittee decided, after having carefully the " Weekly Diary ": " We think it is looked at the Constitution and realised generally admitted in the Isle of Man exactly what it was, that instead of go- that the positions of both Governor and ing for what at all events may be re- Government Secretary should invariably garded as matters of secondary import- be filled from outside the Island." I am ance, they should raise direct the not going to raise the question of the question of Home Rule or no Home Rule appointment of the Governor, nor is any —whether we are to govern ourselves discussion likely to centre round that or be governed from outside. We have appointment; all I can say is that if Mr raised a question of first-class import- Norris really thinks•that it is "generally ance—whether the Manx people are or admitted" in the Isle of Man that the are not to be associated with the Island's post of Government Secretary should be executive government, I admit that this filled from outside, he is very much right is so important that we may misinformed as to public opinion in the possibly never achieve it; it may be re- Island. (Hear, hear.) The simple fact fused to us. Nevertheless, we have is that the more you look at our Con- I decided to ask for it, and we believe it stitution, the more you study it, the ' is right and just. If the British Govern- more you must be convinced that we ment in its wisdom Wends to the Isle are being governed, and the ultimate of Man a substantial measure of control responsibility is refused to us. Without over its own executive, I have not the drawing .too extravagant a comparison, slightest fear that the Islaru will ever I personally am unable to see such a abuse it. (Hear, hear.) I don't believe tremendous lot of difference between the we shall be disloyal. I think there is no theory of government as applied to the country in the Empire more loyal than Isle of Man and the theory of govern- we, and I believe that if- responsibility ment as applied by Germany to the is placed on our shoulders, we shall conquered countries—Norway, Denmark, exercise it with wisdom and discretion. Holland, Belgium, France. In these As I say, we may not get it; but we shall countries the men-who have the supreme persevere, and hope to receive a fair power are appointed by Germany. I hearing when the time comes. But there understand that in some of them at it was; we decided that we were putting least, Germany has not interfered with our finger on the real sore in the Manx their parliamentary institutions. Their Constitution, If I may, I would implore parliaments are allowed to meet; they each member to keep in his mind this are allowed to talk, allowed to pass central point, Responsible Government resolutions; they may go on, so long as for the Isle of Man. We-do not even ask

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition, HOUSE OF KEYS, JANUARY 4, 1044, 143 for the full measure of Responsible Gov- star Cowley has presided with great ernment at one step. What we propose industry and great ability and great is, quite frankly, an instalment—a sub- patriotism, over the meetings of the War stantial instalment, because it inaugur- Committee of Tynwald; he has proposed ' ates the principle. We do not ask that scores of resolutions in Tynwald on all Governor shall be removed, or that he kinds of subjects, and not a single voice shall be divested of all his powers; but has been raised in Tynwald to question we ask that the Governor shall be the wisdom of his being in that position. associated with Tynwald, and Tynwald I think that on one or tWo occasions Mr shall be associated with the Governor, Norris has suggested. that perhaps Deem- in the management of the Isle of Man. ster Cowley should be set aside from his Some may think that that goes too far, judicial work to do the kind of work others may. think it does not go far that I have described; but broadly speak- enough. Nevertheless it is a step, and is ing, there has been no criticism in this put forward with a good deal of humility House, no criticism by the public, of the as an important step, in the desired fact that Cowley is chairman direction. That is what the committee's of the War Committee. I am only report does, and I say quite frankly that speaking for myself, but I feel that if we decided for the time being to leave we urged at this juncture that the Deem- other _questions quiet. We felt that sters should not only not do this kind of possibly it would assist in securing our work, but should be out of Tynwald main objective if we left other questions, altogether, we, should have a pretty such as the composition of the Council difficult case to argue. In fact, it and the presence of the in would be somewhat illogical, and if I the . Whatever may be said may venture to say so somewhat un- for those questions, for or against, in grateful, in view of the great work that theory or in practice, the committee the Deemster has done. Well, that is unanimously decided' in the first instance what the committee thought. I do not that they were subsidiary, not of press- deny the existence of divergent views; ing importance, and might wait till we we tried to be fair in our report, and had discovered, first of all, whether or stated frankly both sides of the case not we were going to get a substantial about the Deemsters being in the measure of Home Rule. That does riot Council. I read somewhere that we were disparage the earnestness and sincerity being criticised as illogical and hard to of many members who believe them to understand, because we had given both be important. 11 any .guidance or sug- sides of the case; but if we were illogical, gestion I may offer the House is of any it is only because we tried to be fair, value, I feel that whatever their import- So we recommended that the House ance in the minds of hon. members, should go in for a substantial measure these are questions which might well be of Home Rule, and leave these questions left for the time being. Let us take the within the Island itself to be settled, if question, shall we say, of the Deemsters necessary, at a later date. On this point, sitting in the Legislative Council. We I want to deal with my friend the former have had during the last few years a member for North Douglas, Mr Norris, unique example of the value of the who has week after week been running presence of the Deemsters in the Legis- a series of articles on the constitutional lature. I make bold to say, though I do question, and in particular has been not always agree with his policy, that criticising the House of Keys report. I Deemster Cowley has rendered magnifi- believe I am a friend of Mr Norris, and cent service to the Island during the I am only sorry that he is not present war years. (Hear, hear.) I am not go- with us when I criticise his articles. He ing to say that it is ideal that a judge occupies what is perhaps a dual position; should be in that position. But it is one he is a member of the Legislature, and thing to say that he should not sit in the he is editor of a small journal. I feel. Council, and another thing to say that that his responsibility as an editor and he should not be mixed up in all the his responsibility as a politician cannot political questions of the hour. I do not be dissociated. A man cannot come here want to go into that argument now, but and say one thing, am: sit in his journal- I do say that for three years now Deem- istic office and say something else. So

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition, 144 HOUSE OF KEYS, JANUARY 4, 11/44.

I am bound to regard Mr Norris' words I would say to him that he has forgotten as those of a man responsible in some who it was, in the first instance, that degree to the Legislature. He has used, asked that this question of more powers I am sorry to say, practically every for the people's representatives should argument that he could bring forward be taken up As members know, it was in order to damage the committee's Mr Norris himself. It was his own recommendations. He says, for instance, resolution which raised this. Why did that the House of Keys is the most he ask this House at the beginning of miserable undemocratic body which has the year to do'these things; and now say been elected since Electoral Reform and that we could not consider them, He Vote by Ballot were introduced into the thrust these matters upon us. Whether Isle of Man. He says: "The House of it was right to raise them, some of us Keys cannot proceed to ask for any new had some doubt. For my own part I was powers in government." He says: "The not dying with anxiety to tackle the Speaker's proposals do not smack of real constitutional question at this stage, but democracy, but .continued government— Mr Norris raised it. He was proposed perhaps in a worse form—working as a member of the committee, and re- through a junta." He says: " I recall fused to act. He had an opportunity that little interest was shown during the then to go on the committee, and'hy that debate on my original resolution by refusal his criticism seems to some ex- eighteen members." He had us all tent to lack point. We have, however, counted, you see. (Laughter.) He refers the issue before us, and it is the first to us in another place as "this marvel- occasion, to my knowledge, that the lous assembly." In another place, here House has asked for real Home Rule, is this little bouquet to the House: "The and for an executive responsible to the fact that Mr Qualtrough felt it his duty people of the Isle of Man. We don't go as to leave the chair and take the floor does far as Mr Norris in his original resolu- imply a consciousness of either lack of tion went, when he asked that the same knowledge on the part of other members, principle of democratic government as or weakness in debate." I think, if exists in should apply to the may say so, that that was a particularly Isle of Man, and that the Governor's uncalled for remark. I did not leave position should be analogous to the the chair because I felt that no other position of in other parts rif member could deal with this question. the Empire. What does that mean? It I was quite satisfied that any member of is as Professor Berriedale Keith recently the committee could handle the report, said, His ministers are often satisfiet3 and I am perfectly satisfied that many if his functions are that of a rubber members of the committee could have stamp, and his connection with the handled it quite as well as I, and prob- political side of government becomes ably with more brevity. I am still not purely formal." That was what Mr convinced that the debating power of Norris asked for, but we do not go as the House has lost a tremendous lot far as that, though we go some way. Mr since the removal of our honourable Norris' democratic zeal has to some ex- friend. (Laughter.) Our debates are tent wavered in recent weeks. What • shorter—(laughter)--but I think that does he ask now? That the Lieutenant- any member who had the privilege of Governor, I think, should nominate the being in the House when the question of executive. That is not Dominion gov- these Government appointments was ernment, not even what the poor un- being considered must have been im- democratic Keys propose, but just a pressed with the ability not only of the continuance of the present system. But hon. member for Middle, Mr Fargher, he goes further in his retreat. He writes: but of other members who spoke on Mr " The Lieutenant-Governor, would, I Farghcr's resolution. I feel that this think, have to be left for some time as remark, especially when coming from Chancellor of the Exchequer, responsible an old member of this House, who sat for general financial policy." I ask you in it for a very long time, might have what are we discussing, Mr Norris the been left out. If Mr Norris thinks the politician or Mr Norris the publicist? House of Keys is a junta, undemocratic, Did the politician lead us up the garden not in a position to ask for more power,. to provide copy for the publicist? He

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition, HOUSE OF KEYS, JANUARY 4, 1944. 145 wrote that on December 18th, and yet, not been able to deal with it yet on just a month before that, on November account of the members being engaged 13th, we find him putting forward this so much due to the war, but I would proposal: " The Governor would recede appeal to them, and hope they will find in the political background. He would time to deal with the question at the cease to be Chancellor of the Exchequer, earliest possible moment. I will not and would perhaps preside on occasions bind myself or the House, but I can say in Tynwald without a vote." One week that if a reasonable scheme is evolved, he says he must remain Chancellor of it will, I believe, find a considerable the Exchequer, and the next week the amount of .support in the House. It is, exact opposite. What a wonderful Gov- however, a matter for ourselves, a ernor he would have to be. He would domestic matter. There are other mat- keep his position and not occupy it. I ters in the leader in the " Manchester am sorry to bring to light these quota- Guardian" which I think it proper I tions of Mr Norris, but I am just afraid should make some little reference to. that Mr Norris' writings have some The writer makes some reference to the influence on the minds of members; his Legislative Council. He writes: " But object seems to be to divide the House Mr Morrison may well think it desirable on the major issue. Any hon. members to inquire whether, if the Isle of Man is who might have been impressed by what to have constitutional reform, it should has been written should try to con- not have more rather than less. Should centrate on the main issue before us. the anomalous participation of judges That issue is so big and important that (the Deemsters) in the Legislative we are in for the biggest struggle this Council continue? Should that Council House has ever taken part in, and in be wholly elective?" It is possible that this struggle we must have complete and Mr Morrison—if he considers the peti- absolute unanimity. I leave that aspect tion 'at all—might take that point of of the case, but I hope members will view. He may, as the "Manchester keep the big object, the important ob- Guardian" suggests, think the time is ject, right in front of their minds. I opportune to do so, but we do not think have before me a leading article which it is the time to do so. Then there is has appeared in. the " Manchester the question of the difference in our Guardian," in which the demand of the taxation. It has always 'been a sore House of Keys is dealt with at Con- point with the " Manchester Guardian," siderable length, and on the whole with the difference in income tax in the Isle fairness. They mention that we cannot of Man and in England, but there is an have Home Rule unless we have Re- answer to that. Nobody who knows the distribution. On the question of Re- Isle of Man would ever suggest that we distribution, 1 want to make myself per- are capable of standing the high income fectly clear. There are many members tax of a great and wealthy industrial who are not personally interested in Re- country such as that across the water distribution who would like to see the That is a question of arrangement and question settled and out of the road. detail. I am glad to say that I am en- We are, I feel sure, prepared, when the couraged by the view of the "Manchester proper times comes, to take a fair and Guardian" that the Home Secretary democratic view of the question, but I must face up to this matter. I hope the do not think the best way to settle it is House will to-day "stake .a claim" for a to say that if you don't get Redistribution right to rule ourselves, and so end this you will not get Reform. I do think it system by which we are controlled from would also cause a lot of resentment if outside; for a chance for the people of the Home Secretary was asked to bring the Island to develop the power of self- in Redistribution. It is a domestic ques- government: In a recent debate in the tion, and I think Mr Norris went the' House of Commons, they discussed the right way about it when he got a petition restoration of self-government for New- signed by 9,000 people. I have not seen foundland. Some years ago that country it, and I cannot guarantee the number; got into difficulties, and the Imperial but it went to the Governor, who Government sent a commission of civil thought it a proper thing to appoint a servants there to carry on the govern- commission to deal with it • They have ment. It appears from the debate that

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition.

146 HOUSE OF KEYS, JANUARY 4, 1944, there was a general recommendation to thing entrusted to us. That is what I the House of Commons to restore to personally ask for, and what I think the Newfoundland their Constitution, and House asks for. We feel that with it we during that debate Mr Beverley Baxter can serve our Island and our Empire made this statement:— more efficiently and with greater suc- I say to Newfoundland from the House that cess. I hope, as a result of our decision we do not, as tho Mother Country, give self. to-day, this question will go up to government, as a prize, as a lollipop; we give it London with the unanimous and whole- as a command. We should say to Newfound- hearted backing of the House. I will land: "Now call your leaders together, ar- not refer further to the minority report. range to govern yourselves, and we will stand by you through bad times and good times, not Whatever the issue which arises on that rating less highly your democratic rights than is, it has nothing, in my view, to do with your financial solvency. Govern yourselves, the question as to whether we should be come side by side with us into the future, and allowed to govern ourselves or whether let us cud our own shame here for having someone else is to govern us. I have closed a parliament that. had governed for a hundred years." great pleasure in moving the resolution. Mr Craine: I beg to second it, and I want to emphasise that " We do not reserve my remarks, give self-government as a prize, as • a lollipop, we give it as a command." Self- Mr Alcock: I may say with a full government is given as a high trust be- heart that this is the greatest crisis that cause the British Empire has stood for has ever occurred in the Isle of Man. the freedom of its peoples. It is gener- Bacon said that no man was fit to govern ally agreed, I think, that too often that unless he was a student of history. I right has been limited and misinter- stand before you to-day as a living his- preted by the civil service on the spot tory. For the first 35 to 40 years of my who administer some of the Colonies; life I lived in Ireland, and I witnessed but I believe the ideal of the British there during that whole period a class people, and of Parliament, is that of misery that is more or less in- throughout the Empire its people should describable. During that time I have be free to govern themselves. I believe seen families in the west and south-west the ideal of the Isle of Man is to govern of Ireland dying in thousands from itself. We have a Constitution which, starvation, and famine afflicted Ireland as far as we know, reaches back for a twice in that time. I have seen four or thousand years. five million people suffering, and have seen people fleeing from the place as if Mr Craine: One thousand and thirty. it were afflicted by the plague. The The Speaker: Well, one thousand and greatest sorrow was when I saw, weekly, thirty years. Even in its earliest days many of the very best of the young man- it had some element at least of popular hood of Ireland going down to the rail- Voice in it. It has gradually grown and way station, on their way to emigrate developed until the Manx people - have to distant parts of the Empire. The as high a . political sense of responsi- population was reduced in my time from bility and discretion as any people in 11,000,000 to 3,000,000. When I saw the British Empire. I am not. in the there was very little chance of getting a least afraid that, even if we were given living in Ireland, I left it, and in my absolute control over our own affairs, journeying through various parts of the we would—in popular language—" make Empire, seeking to earn a livelihood, I a muck of it." We may make mistakes had to admit that the government by the —all peoples make mistakes—and we British Isles in various parts I went to might have to hammer out among our- reflected the greatest credit on them, selves some system by which we could and the antagonism I felt for them was have a more suitable form of, say, party gone. When my life's work was done, government. These things will follow. I came to the Isle of Man, a thing I have I do hope that the Home Secretary will never regretted. I do not know of any- not, to use the words of Mr Beverley one who has come here who has ever Baxter, look upon a greater measure of regretted it. But it would . take me a Home Rule for the Island as a lollipop, very long time to show why such a as something to keep us quiet for the marvellously intelligent people like the time being, but as a command; some- people of the Isle of Man had got such

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition. HOUSE OF KEYS. JANUARY 4, 1944. 147 a government. In Newfoundland they to turn to page 6 of the report (para- made a hash of their' financial affairs, graph 24) and the third line, where it and eventually, for the time being, their says that the Executive Committee Constitution and Parliament was sus- should be elected "annually." The word pended. " annually," of course, should be struck The Speaker: I think that .is very, very out. The committee decided to alter it extreme. I did not mean to suggest that from annual election to election for they had made a hash of it. three years, but we omitted to make that consequential alteration in section 24. Mr Alcock: No; they did not, sir. I That word "annually" goes out. agree with you. They were simply juntas sent over there. You heard from Mr Callister: I would like to support the speeches that it is a command, a just the majority report very strongly, and reward to be handed back to them; not I think that by so doing we are much the Constitution they had before. A more likely to achieve an end worth Constitution is going to be handed to striving for. Our Speaker (Mr Qual- the Island of Jamaica, where the popula- trough) has put it so very ably and tion consists mostly of black people, forcibly this morning that I am sure it and they are asking that the Constitu- is not worth while my going over the tion should be exactly the same as we details of the question, but I do think want now. And if they are giving that that the attitude he has taken is surely to Jamaica now, because it has been a one that will commend itself to this backward part of the Empire, why House, and I sincerely appeal to mem- should they withhold it from us who bers to let us have a unanimous vote on have never been a backward part of the this matter. Though we may approve Empire? I have been running through of the minority report up to a very great the history of the Isle of Man, and the extent at some future time, and I think historians tell us that when the Euro- it is well to keep it in mind, still I think pean nations were torn with strife and we should concentrate whole-heartedly warfare, it was a Christian place and a on this one great object. We are striv- happy place, and so was Ireland in those ing for something that is well worth olden days, and if Newfoundland is to fighting for, and I sincerely hope that it have a responsible government, and will be attained. Reference was made Jamaica is to be given the Constitution this morning to our late member's re- we are asking for now, surely it would marks, and he speaks as if he had the be a very simple thing to ask that this voice of the country behind him; but 1. Island, which never gave the slightest have no hesitation in saying that I trouble, should be entitled to have the believe that if this matter were put to same type of government. I like to the country at the present moment, I suggest, when people all over the world gwould not be afraid to face the issue, are talking about the Atlantic Charter, and he would get a very, very definite that we should have in our minds an- shock. I sincerely hope that the House other charter—the Charter of the Irish will whole-heartedly carry the majority Sea, and the four points of that charter report presented to us. should be: (1) Freedom to govern our- selves; (2) Freedom to spend. our own Mr Bridson: I rise to move an amend- revenues, which includes expenditure on ment which stands in the name of the social services; (3) Freedom to frame honourable and learned member for our own policies without interference Middle and myself, but in my speech I from any English Government office, shall confine myself to the proposals especially from imported officials im- which say that " the majority of the posed on us; (4) Freedom to work out members of the Legislative Council be our destiny as free men, and stand or elected by a direct vote of the Manx fall by it. These are the four freedoms people," leaving my learned friend to we want in the Isle of Man. deal with the question of the removal of the Deemsters from the Legislature. The House adjourned for lunch, and When this question was recently mooted resumed at 2-30 p.m. in the House by the then hon. member The Speaker•. Before the debate is re- for North Douglas (Mr Norris), it con- sumed, may I ask members of the House sisted of five main points. The first was

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Redistribution. When it came to the the House for consideration clause by vote of this House, the question of Re- clause, and that each clause and the distribution was, by a majority, left over whole report would be open to amend- to the commission which was already ment, acceptance, or rejection. The appointed to deal with it, And having House, after hearing that statement from said that, I will put Redistribution out ihe hon. member for Castletown, passed of the question altogether. The second the resolution adopting the report and resolution was that two-thirds of the accepting it in principle. The hon. members of the Legislative Council member for Castietown then moved that should be elected by ballot vote, and a committee of this House be appointed that resolution, which was put as an to draw up and put into its final form amendment, was carried by 12 votes to for submission to this House a report in 10. The third point was that no judges the form of a petition to the Home should sit ir. the Legislature. That also, Secretary. To the original committee when it was put as an amendment, was there were added the hon. member for carried by 12 votes to 10. The fourth Michael, Mr Hampton, and myself, and point was that an Executive should we met to consider and draw up this be elected by Tynwald, and • should petition. Rightly or wrongly I had it in take over certain functions. That was my mind that the hon. member for carried by 12 votes to 10. The fifth Michael and I had been added to the point was that the Governor's position committee to urge it along the road of in the Insular Legislature should ap- removing the Deemsters and electing proximate more to the position of gov- the members. I urged that—I am afraid ernors in our dependencies or colonies. with no great force—but I urged it to That was carried by 12 votes to 10. the committee, and most of the com- When these were amalgamated and put mittee did not see my point of view, with to the House, with the exception of the result that the present petition has Redistribution, they were carried by a been presented to the House with a majority of 18 to 4. So that the position minority report by the honourable and was that in December, 1942, eighteen learned member for Middle and myself. members of this House were in favour Now I contend, after voting on the whole of all these proposals, and thought they scheme 18-4, and after the debate in sho,uld be submitted to a committee for the House when we discussed the report, further consideration, and the necessary that the committee had ample guidance report placed before this House. The as to how far this House was prepared voting was 18 to 4, with two members to go along the road of constitutional absent on active service, I think that is reform. And in order to test the feeling fairly conclusive proof that there was at of the House, with no hostility whatever one time a very substantial majority of to the original committee and no objec- the House in favour of the five points.- tion whatever to the report as far as The committee sat, and laid a very well it goes, these amendments are being considered report before the House, and moved. On page 5 of the report of the the House gave it a very favourable re- committee you will find in paragraph 8, ception. In fact, the only criticism that under " method of unifying responsi- this House had to offer on that report bility," the following phrase:— was that it did not go far enough. Some We think that the essential conditions of any members regretted that it contained no recommendations must he Cal that. they are practical; (h) that they' are likely to com- recommendations for the removal of the mend themselves to his Majesty's Government; Deemsters from the Legislature, and no 11.1141 (c) that though they may not fully- reference to the subject of the Legisla- achieve the purpose of the House, vie., full tive Council. In that debate no amend- democratic government., they should ho airn.yl ments were moved, but if you considered at and he a step forward towards the ultimate what may be taken as the feeling of the realisation of that purpose. House, the House was certainly in fav- What leaves me in the • air is this— . our of going further than the committee what reasons have the original com- recommended. The hon. member for mittee for saying that the suggestions Castletown, in his reply, stated that if that the Deemsters should be removed the report were carried, a petition would from the Council, and that the Council be drafted which would be submitted to should be elected, are not practicable?

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We have heard no question of the im- Council, have a unanimous decision practicability of the suggestions in the turned down. And the one vote which House, and none were made while I sat turns it down may be that of a Deem- on this committee. If they consider them ster, the Bishop, or the Attorney-General. . impracticable, perhaps they are im- It may be one of the two appointed mem- practicable; but before we accept the bers, and you must remember, and we committee's suggestion, they should tell must all remember, that none of these us why. Then they go on to say that members of the Legislative Council is in the suggestions would not be acceptable any way under the control of the people to the Home Secretary. Similarly, they of this Island, and it is not our rights give us no reasons why these sugges- that we are so much concerned about • tions should not -be acceptable to the in this case, but the rights of the people Home Secretary. They may be accept- whom we represent. What happens to able or they may not be acceptable. The us, no matter how foolish the Legis- suggestion of an Executive Council with lative Council make us look, does not considerable power over the police, civil matter in any degree. It is what hap- service, and finance, is being sent to the pens to the people, and I urge this, that Home Secretary; but as they bring for- the House should be prepared to trust ward no reasons why the Home Sec- the people who sent us here to elect their retary should regard one set of sugges- own Legislative Council, because even tions as reasonable and acceptable, and if an elected Legislative Council does others as not reasonable or not accept- clash with an elected House of Keys, the able, we are still left in the air. Have remedy is in the hands of the people who the committee any inside information would elect both bodies, and they can from the Home Secretary or any other at the very earliest period, at the end of source that certain suggestions are five years, decide which body was right acceptable and certain suggestions not . and which was wrong. Now, we are acceptable? I am not suggesting they sometimes over here rather apt to com- have. I am simply asking a question. pare the Legislative Council with the Are we here to submit what the Home . Not'v the only similarity Secretary may accept or may not accept, between the Legislative Council and the or are we here to tell the Home Sec- House of Lords is this, that both are retary what the people of this Island second chambers in a popularly elected want, whether it is acceptable to the parliament. In one case they are a Home Secretary or not acceptable to the hereditary body, and in the other case Home Secretary? We surely are here to they are an appointed body, or the put forward the claims of the Manx majority of them are appointed. But people, whether they be acceptable to there the analogy ends, because while the Home Secretary and the English the power of the House of Lords is very Government or not acceptable, and on much curtailed and limited under the their decision we will say what further Parliament Act, the position of the action we will take on the matter. On. Legislative Council is such that it could page 7 of the report, in paragfaph 14, not be varied or amended without its they have given their reasons for objec- own consent. The House of Lords is tion to direct election to the Council. limited first of all by the Parliament They consider that if the Legislative Act, which takes from it all control in Council is directly elected by the people, matters of finance, and they can only as is the House of Keys, the Legislative delay a measure for so long, because Council will consider that they are after it has been presented to the House equally entitled to decide whichever way of Lords three times a Bill automatically they think fit on every matter, having passes the House of Lords, whether they obtained their authority from the same agree with it or not. The Government people as the House of Keys. Now I do can create a sufficient number of new not think that that Objection has any peers of the correct political persuasion great weight. It certainly has no great to ensure the passing of any measure it weight when you consider the present wishes to pass. But here our Legislative condition of affairs. At present the Council is safeguarded and entrenched House of Keys can at any time, by a by all kinds of legislation. It cannot be majority of one vote in the Legislative removed except by its own consent, and

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its object is to 'sit tight. There is one governed. That man enjoys all those simple suggestion which could be as rights. adopted to obviate the deadlocks be- Mr Craine: And pays English income tween the elected House of Keys and the tax. • elected Legislative Council. If we adopt this suggestion, it would be perfectly Mr Bridson: When he comes over here, easy to incorporate it. If a deadlock he loses those privileges, The hon. should arise between the elected Legis- member for South Douglas interjects lative Council and the elected House of that he pays English income tax, It has Keys, it would be perfectly simple for never been suggested that the more taxa- us, sitting together in Tynwald, to take tion he pays, the more political rights a joint vote of both branches, and let the he should enjoy. We are dealing with joint vote decide. I consider that the the natural rights o1:. a man, not the Manx people are entitled to the same rights of property. The hon. member for ' political rights and the same political Peel, for instance, has no more right in treatment as are enjoyed by the people this House than I have, nor does he claim residing in England. Now we are apt it. In England you can say "Civis to set up as Manx people. If we spoke Britianicum sum" and enjoy all the of ourselves as residents in the Isle of rights of Empire. What is it that makes Man it would be probably more correct, this Island different from the Isle of because I very much doubt if there is Wight, Anglesey, or the Scilly Isles? We such a thing as a racially pure Manx- have equal education, we are of the man at present in existence, With the same race, yet in these places they have constant coming and going of the popula- the same political rights as the people tion through long ages, it is extremely in England have. It is not only a ques- improbable that there are any aboriginal tion of Government-appointed officials Manxmen left, so the disability we or judges sitting in the Legislative labour under cannot be on account of Council, and we are requested, in the race any more than on account of interests of unanimity, to say nothing education. The disability we labour about it. In bringing forward this sug- under, apparently, is that we reside in gestion for the removal of the Deemsters the Isle of Man. Now take the case of from the Council, and pressing for a Manx person living in the Isle of Man financial control, I am sure we are doing and going to England. He may be of the right thing. It is no good doing a Manx race, but as soon as his feet touch thing piecemeal. It is not good policy, English soil he takes his registration and it is certainly not polite to the Home card to the registration officer on the Secretary to treat him in that manner. mainland, and in two months from that We know what we want, and a year date he is entitled to be enrolled on the ago eighteen members of the House of parliamentary register of England, and Keys knew what they wanted. Why has all the rights and privileges of an back out? If we go to London asking Englishman. for financial control and an Executive Council, go again next year and ask for Mr Hampton: He is none the less a the removal of the Deemsters, and go Celt for all that. the year after and ask for an elected Mr Bridson: I am talking about the Legislative Council, the Home Secretary political position of a person resident in will think, and think rightly, that we the Isle of Man. It does not matter don't know what we want, and that whether he is a •Celt ()I..' a Hottentot. If whatever he gives us, we will ask for he resides in the Isle of Man he enjoys more, whereas if we put these things much less political freedom than he en- forward now, he will at least see that it joys when he goes to live in England. has been the subject of much thought. He is entitled to a parliamentary vote, He will be forced to realise that we and that parliamentary vote enables have certain desires. He will give us the him to see his parliamentary representa- credit of being able to formulate a policy, tive and to dictate through the Colonial and we are quite as likely to get these Office and the Home Office how the things together as to get them one after coloured races throughout the Empire the other. There is another point. We are -to be governed, and how the people are in the middle of a war, and at the living in the Isle of Man are to be . end of the war the younger generation

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition. HOUSE OF KEYS, JANUARY 4, 1944. 151 will come back looking for a new world. without consulting them. It may be our They probably won't get it. They will duty to represent our constituents, but be extremely lucky if they do. But we also owe to our constituents the duty everyone will consider that they are en- of giving them help in political matters. titled to it, and will be prepared, prob- It is surely the duty of members of this ably, to go to considerable lengths to get Legislature to formulate a political it. From that point of view, I think that policy for this Island, with the approval just as it is desirable to have schemes of the electors, rather than have to wait of work, and housing schemes, and other for the electors to formulate a policy things for the men who return from the for them. The question of unanimity war, so we should have our political has been stressed. "Unanimity is so im- house put in order, and have set up portant," it is said; " if we are unani- machinery through which we can give mous on one subject, the Home Secretary expression to our convictions. If we are may agree with us, and if we are not going to have a Legislative Council unanimous he may not." We are all which thwarts the legitimate aspirations agreed that unanimity is important, but of the younger generation, we are asking there are two sorts of unanimity. The for trouble, and no sensible man would House gave a very good example a fort- look at such a thing; he wants to try to night ago on the Gaming Bill. To-day foresee what might happen, and take and for the past week I have been con- steps to see that it does not happen. In scious of an attempt to manufacture moving an amendment there is one - unanimity, and I am afraid I have not drawback, that the mover has no right any great admiration for this manufac- of reply such as is possessed by the tured unanimity, At any rate, if we are mover of the original resolution. I have to have manufactured unanimity, whose heard certain objections to these sug- unanimity is it going to be? Is it to be gestions brought forward by the hon. the unanimity of the people who only member for Middle and myself, and I want executive and financial control, or will do my best to meet them before the unanimity which includes the re- they have been voiced here. One objec- moval of the Deemsters and an elected tion is that members have not had time Legislative Council? How are we to get to consult their constituents on the our unanimity? The hon. member for questions of the removal of the Deem- Ramsey the other day, dealing with an- sters from the Legislative Council and other subject, brought up the old Biblical the establishment of an elected Council. practice of drawing lots—of " tossing up Well, I am the last person who would for it." Are we to decide which suggest that a constituency should not unanimity we shall have by taking one be consulted, but I would like to remind or the other out of a hat? I have given the House that very often the constitu- the House my reasons for moving these encies are not consulted. It is not many amendments; I think the time is ripe years since this House passed Conscrip- when these reforms should come. I tion, and so far as I am aware, not a think that if the House decided to adopt single member consulted his constitu- them, the people would gladly fall in— ents on that question in any shape or because, after all, we do know what the form. When you passed Conscription, people require. I leave the matter with rightly or wrongly, certain liberties were the House, expressing the hope that if taken from certain people. They were the resolution carries, whoever takes the no longer free to lead their lives in their petition to the Home Secretary will be own way, but were taken and placed in able to come home with a much greater one or other of the services. That was measure of actual power for the people taking something from the people— of this Island than that which they enjoy possibly for the people's welfare, but at present. taking it from them all the same, The Mr Crowe: I do not know whether or suggestions in this amendment do not not ycu will allow me, Mr Speaker, but take anything from the individual; they I would like two minutes on this subject. give him certain rights; and I think that if you are willing to take things from The Acting-Speaker: Are you second- the people without consulting, them, you ing the amendment? are equally entitled to give them things Mr Crowe: No. I just want to make

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an explanation, in view of what the hon. representatives of the Colonial Office, member for Middle, Mr Bridson, has the Office of Woods and Forests, and the said. It will do later on, if I am allowed. Office .of Land Revenue. In the Isle Of Mr Cowin: I second the amendment. Man _they received evidence from the The whole object of our discussion is officials of the Insular administration, summed up in a phrase which the members of the Council and the Keys, Speaker himself used. Our one purpose and from a large number of residents, is to ask for real Home Rule; these are and their report and findings are con- the mover's words, " We are here to ask tained in a volume which is well worthy for real Home Rule, for executive re- of consideration, running to some 355 sponsibility for the people of the Isle pages. Members will admit that reforms of Man." The position of His Majesty's there must be in our life. But we British judges in the Legislature, therefore, people do it in a different manner from should be discussed, and should be the Continental peoples, shall I say; they analysed. Nothing that the 50,000 elec- do it more by revolution, and we do it tors of the Island, if there are so many, by evolution. In my lifetime—I am one can do by attending the polls can by of the youngest members of the House any stretch of the imagination sway the in point of age—there have been very manner in which either of the Deemsters great changes in the constitution of the sitting in the Legislature will vote. If Legislative Council. People have come they want to do so—I am not going to out of it who held their positions merely say that they have done it—they can go because they were officials, and people contrary, day after day and year after elected by this House have gone into it, year, to what is the undoubted public I want to give one or two excerpts from opinion. They can vote against meas- the report which was made, as I have ures that are of undoubted benefit to said, as far back as 1911. Mr J. T. Cowell every class of person in the Island, and was giving evidence, and was being I as an elector, I as a member of this questioned by the chairman, the Right House, can do nothing to cure that. It Hon. Lord MacDonnell. The question is: is always a very strong principle of With regard to the judges, we all under- British justice that judges shall_ not stand the properly high estimation in which the judiciary are held in the Island, but I interfere in politics. The judges in Eng- want your opinion on a point that, has been land, those corresponding with our put forward. Do you think, in the long run. Deemsters, are of three kinds. The that as a principle, it is good or bad that Deernster here is at one moment a those gentlemen who have to decide legal County Court judge, at the next moment points and to judge their fellow men,'should —or the next day—a judge of the King's at the same time be involved in the public controversy incident to holding places in the Bench; he is a judge of Assize, and also island Legislature? a judge of the Central Criminal Court. When a man occupies these positions, The reply is this:— with power of life and death and the On the abstract principle. the main ones• power of liberty or imprisonment in his tion you put to rile, I have to say at once, I agree with what you have put. But in the hands, is it not only right and proper working of it in the past no difficulty has that he should be above any "pull," or arisen, and no objection, I believe, has been any whim, of politics? For the proper raised. administration of justice, it has been The witness agrees in the abstract, so recognised in many countries through- far back as 1911, that it is not proper, out the world that once men take up the it is not good, to have the Deemsters position of judge they shQuld leave the sitting in the Legislative Council. Then political arena. This matter has df we have Mr J. A. Brown giving evidence, course, been considered before. In the and again he is being questioned by the year 191 the Home Secretary, who at chairman. The question is:— that time was our present Prime Minis- ter, the Right Hon. Winston Churchill, Do -you think that the judicial element in the appointed a committee of very eminent Council should go? Persons to visit the Isle of Man for the The answer—the House will see that purpose of looking at its Constitution— I am putting both sides—is this:— civilly, judicially, and financially. That No. In this Island we have not got a very committee took evidence in London from large amount of legislative material, and 1

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think it will be a pity in the interests of the I do not persuade the House to-day, I general public if we lose the services of, suc.h men as the Deemsters iu tanking laws, and the think that the time will come, in the other judges, like the Clerk of the Bolls. Those riot far distant future, when the sugges- are men who have got to that position by tions which this amendment contains ability, and I think we sh ould make use will come into effect. that ability in law-making. 01 course, in an ideal state or things it is not good for a judge Mr Crowe: From something suggested to be also a law-maker, but I do not see bow by the hon, member for , it might you•could better it in the circumstances pre- appear that my electioq to this second vailing on the Island. committee was on the grounds that I had You find, then, that witnesses were opposed the Deemsters sitting in the asking so far back as 1911 what we are Council. I do not want this House to asking now, and what is to a very great have the feeling that the fact of my extent public opinion in the Isle of Man going on the committee has changed my to-day. " It is not good," they said, " for view. But when we sat in the com- a lawmaker. to be also a judge." The mittee, the feeling was to try so far as main argument at that time for keeping possible to arrive at some solution which the Deemsters in the Council was that would be likely to bring about an im- there was a paucity of legislative mediate, or fairly immediate, grant of material—that there were not sufficient executive powers. My ideas regarding capable men to go into the Legislature the Deemsters sitting in the Council haVe and give their help in making laws. not changed. . I do not resent anything Thirty years have elapsed since 1911, that has been said, but 1 want to make and during that time we have spent, I it perfectly clear that the fact that my suppose, some millions of pounds upon name appears with the majority simply education. The general outlook of the means that I feel that by doing this we voters, men and women, has materially might achieve something more immedi- imprOved. We in the Isle of Man come ate than if we fought for the whole lot. very greatly in contact with our friends Mr Alcock: It is just as well that the in the ; and it is utter House should know that the judges in nonsense to say that the choice of people to sit in the Legislative Council is so England are appointed for life, and can- not be removed except by successful restricted that it is still necessary to impeachment in the House of Commons. keep the Deemters in. The subject we are talking about is in a very small They can sit, and vote, in the House of Lords. The only other point I want to compass. First of all, you have to ask make is that although we may feel in- whether it is in the best interests of the clined to ask for everything at once, Island that a man who has to administer . that is a fault. It is a very bad fault the laws should also make them. The of mine, but I am learning wisdom with next point is, is it not better to have the old age. A very much wiser man than judges as they are in England, entirely any of us said: "Line upon line, and free from any political pull? I am talk- precept upon precept; here a little, and ing about judges in the King's Bench Division, who are entirely apart from there a little." I have found that a very useful motto. any legislative duty. This is in a very large community where you have the Mr Craine. I am supporting the resolu- judges travelling to Assize, living in Lon- tion because was a member of the don and going to Liverpool, Manchester, committee, and I am opposed to the or elsewhere. But here, every juryman, amendment. Quite frankly, I am op- every witness, knows the judge; and pOsed to it from this point of view; how that is why 1 say that it would be much does this agitation come about for the better to raise the Deemsters to the same removal of the Deemsters from the position that they would occupy in Eng- Legislative Council? Is it jealousy, is land, and take them away from the con- it mere pettiness? If the Deemsters had tamination of public life. (Laughter.) been misusing their position in the I have said something which my friend Council, I could quite understand • the the hon. member for Ayre says that he agitation; but in my study of Manx understands—(laughter)—but I say it, history right down through the ages, I of course, in the most friendly sense. have found that the Deemsters were on Even if the hon. member for Gad.' and many occasions the sole fighters for the

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition. 154 HOUSE OF KEYS, JANUARY 4, 1944.

rights of the common people against the sovereign rights. Yet the Bill passed sovereigns. It has been the Deemsters through both Houses, and received the who held the fort and looked after the Royal Assent. Lord Campbell, in de- interests of the Manx people. Does it scribing the incident, speaks of Bills necessarily follow, because a man hap- being smuggled through the House of pens' to be a judge, that he cannot be a Commons, a felicitous phrase which by good legislator? If the Isle of Man was now has passed almost into a proverb; different from other places, I could but in these days it would pass the wit understand the' agitation; but are we of man to conceive of any Bill of first different? We are not. Go into the rate importance which could by any House of Commons, and you will see the possibility be regarded as uncontentious Lord Chief Justice business by the House as a whole, and Mr Cowin: No; you see the Lords of the days of smuggling are therefore Appeal. numbered with the past." Here we see a judge, the Lord Chief Justice of Eng- Mr Craine: There was a time, then, land, who had the moral courage to when the Lord Chief Justice was a stand up for the rights of a small member of the House of Lords. Why people. This Bill, as I say, passed our Manx judges are objected to, I don't through the House of Lords practically know. I want to speak quite frankly. without comment, because the Duke of Have they used their position to thwart Atholl had his "pals? there, looking after the Keys? Never. In my reading of the his interests. We have the Deemsters debates of the Legislative Council, I find to-day, and I am proud of them in this that on many occasions the Deemsters sense, that they have the moral courage have pointed some phrasing in a Bill to stand up to any department of the which was wrong, and should be English Government. (Hear, hear.) I changed, and their advice has been wel- know that one of them has been to come, and has improved the Bill. In the London as a deputation, and I have Agricultural Wages Bill, the House put listened to him speaking his mind. He in a clause entirely against the principles has had the courage to tell the Home of democracy, and the Deemsters and Office where they were going, and he has the other members of the Legislative also displayed courage on the War Com- Council held that up and said, This is mittee, so far as the rights of the people all wrong; it is against democracy"— of the Isle of Man are concerned. I am which was perfectly true. Speaking of a believer in democracy, but I am not a the Lord Chief Justice, a gentleman believer in Communism or Nazism, living in the Island at present, an which are the two greatest dictatorships evacuee from the Channel Islands, a in the world, and there are some people retired lawyer; has sent me a book, "The who would have dictatorship in the Isle History of St. James' Square," which of Man, if they could get their way. refers among other people to Lord Chief Look at Russia to-day, what is it? I Justice Ellenborough, who died in 1818. do not suppose that 25 per cent. of the The book contains this statement about people of Russia believe in Bolshevism; him: " He vigorously opposed the Bill to but the discipline is absolute, hard as compensate the Duke of Atholl for his iron. It is no better than Nazism, not a rights in the Isle of Man, which he thus bit. Of course I admire them for their characterised in a debate •in the House fight, and it may be their means of get- of Lords: Never have I witnessed such ting rights for the common people. I a gross job present itself in Parliament believe, too, that we should have an in such a bodily form as this. Let us Upper House free from political influ- try to recover the love of people of whom ence. I am satisfied that the men who we ought to be the protectors, not the have been put into the Upper House spoliators.' " In that, he was speaking have moral courage, and if a Bill comes for the people of the Isle of Man, whose before them which they think is hasty rights were being sold as though they legislation, they should be in this posi- were serfs. He contended that the late tion, that no influence should be brought Duke of Atholl had already received to bear on them but their own common- 2.177,000 more than he was entitled to sense and statesmanship, to see what is as compensation for the loss of his fcfr the good of the people. They should

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration ' of Draft Petition. HOUSE OF KEYS, JANUARY 4, 1944. 155 give an honest opinion, without any more of. We have such splendid beauty political pull for or against. If you read spots; we are the ideal holiday place for the history of Greece, or the history of English people. I want the English any democracy, oligarchy, plutocracy, people to keep on coming here; I don't call it what you like, you always find want to alienate them, and make them that .there is an Upper House of elder think we are rebels and revolutionaries. statesmen, free in their own wisdom to I quite agree that we are fighting for a give an opinion. We in the Isle of Man better measure of self-control, and I have never had a fight with the Upper believe that if we put our case in the House such as there has been in Eng- right way, we shall get it. ' I hope we land with the House of Lords. I do not are going to look at things from a com- remember of any occasion, so far as monsense point of view, and not kill the Bills are concerned, when we in the Keys goose that lays the golden eggs. I want have disagreed with the Upper House. to see things happening in my own life- We have had, on certain clauses, to go time, not a hundred years hence; I want upstairs and engage in conferences, but the people I represent to get some ad- we have come to some form of agree- vantages while I still represent them. ment which has been agreeable to all. All this talk, in my opinion—I want to Mr Fargher rose to speak. be straight—is " hot air." We have The Speaker: We have to be at Gov- members getting up and saying that the ernment House, and should leave here ordinary working man has not the same before four o'clock, so that the House political freedom here as in England. should adjourn five minutes before. It I venture to say that he has got as much, may or may not be possible to finish if not more, and if he is in England he this afternoon. has to pay income tax, which the same type of man here is not paying, if he Mr Fargher: I do not propose to take earns the same money. We make our up much time. I am sorry the amend- own laws, and all this talk is " hooey," ment has come before the House. I may in my opinion. People might as well be in some way responsible, for when say at once, " Let us have annexation." the original report of the committee Do we want it? No! We are proud of came before the House, I suggested that the Home Rule we have to-day; our the Deemsters would be better employed Home Rule is as good as any, and I outside the Council, and that they might won't have it traduced. advise when Bills were before the Legis- lature, on their effect on existing laws. Mr Crowe: Aren't you fighting for I felt that their work in the Council Home Rule now? might at some future date bias their Mr Craine: We are fighting for con- judgment in the law courts. Difficulties trol, and I expect we shall get it. But arise from time to time, which are if we ask for the moon at once, do you argued before the Deemsters, on the use think we shall get it? We shall get what of words, and they might be swayed as we want by evolution. .I am no weak- to the correct interpretation by the ling, don't think that; but I know what part they had taken in the Legis- this country owes to England. It may lature. I think that in the Island there be that agriculture is our main industry, are a lot of people who will agree but how many people would the Island with what was said by the late Mr John maintain if it was purely agriCultural? A. Brown, before the MacDonnell com- It would not maintain 15,000, but we mission, about the Deemsters, that the have a population of 50,000, and we have Island should not be deprived of two sent thousands away as colonists to excellent brains in shaping the destinies America, Australia, South Africa, and of the Island. I do not want to enlarge everywhere. We owe a great deal to on the Deemsters' work done for us England for the money that has been during the war and before the war. brought into the Island. We have There can be no doubt that during the developed the visiting industry, and war the Island has been well served by everyone has benefited, from the work- both Deemsters, and I think at this man up to the landlord and the capital- stage the Island cannot afford to have ist. I want to see this country made them removed from the Council. I

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition. 156 HOUSE OF KEYS, JANUARY 4, 1944. would like to appeal to those who feel First, the Deemsters occupy in Manx that judges should have nothing to do constitutional history the position of with the Legislature to withdraw the an ' Estate of the Realm,' and as- such motion to-day. I think their proposal appear in the preamble of all Acts of will find little support from the House, the Manx Legislature," and later on: and any suggestions we have for Reform " Moreover, there is a strong body of should be unanimous. There are many moderate opinion in the Island in favour matters on which some of us would like of retaining the judicial element in the to go the whole hog, but I suggest we Council." And "All three judges (there should concentrate on more control. were then two Deemsters and the Clerk suggest it would be wiser to withdraw of the Rolls) have an .immemorial right the amendment to-day. There are other to sit in Tynwald and in the Council, matters which I would like to refer to, and without the Deemsters' assent no but the House is to adjourn in five or Act of Tynwald is valid." I think it ten minutes, and the mover of the will require a very strong argument to resolution has to reply. I will, however, interfere with that historical position. make one suggestion, that before the With' regard to unanimity, I want no petition is sent to London, it should be " false pretence unanimity." I believe re-drafted and submitted to the House. that all the members, including those Mr Qualtrough: I have very little to who put forward the amendment, are say in reply to the two members who in favour of the resolution, and I think have supported the amendment. I took it would be much wiser to concentrate the opportunity to reply to the minority on the single demand for the rights of report in my opening speech, so the the Manx people to control our own House knows my view on the subject. affairs, to government of the people by I believe, personally, that experience the people for the people. has proved the advantages of a strong The amendment was then 'put and second chamber. I believe that in the lost without a division. Isle of Man we have the best second chamber in the world, and the most The motion in favour of the petition experienced. I think that one directly was put and carried unanimously. elected. House in the Legislature is Mr Craine: I move that Mr Speaker sufficient, and that in countries where be authorised to sign the petition on there are two elected houses things are behalf of the House, and forward it to not more efficient than they are in the His Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor Isle of Man, and more deadlocks occur for transmission to the Secretary of than we have here. I feel, possibly, that State for Home Affairs, the view which will be taken by the Home Secretary on that might be the Mr Quayle seconded, and it was view expressed in the MacDonnell com- carried. mission, when they said " We are un- The House adjourned to Tuesday, able to accept that view for two reasons. January 18th.

W111-0411MM TYNWALD COURT.

Douglas, Tuesday, January 18, 1944.

Present: The Governor (Vice-Admiral I Crellin, S. Norris, F. S. Dalgleish, C. the Right Hon. the Earl Granville, C.B., Gill, and R. C. Cain (Receiver-General), D.S.O.). In the Council: Deemsters with Mr J. N. Panes, Government Sec- Farrant and Cowley, the Attorney- retary and Clerk to the Council. In the General, Messrs J. R. Corrin, J. F. Keys : Messrs A. J. Teare (Acting

Reforms in the Manx Constitution—Consideration of Draft Petition.